From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Feb 2 12:20:13 2000 Date: 02 Feb 2000 12:20:13 -0500 From: Mail System Internal Data Subject: DON'T DELETE THIS MESSAGE -- FOLDER INTERNAL DATA Message-ID: <949512013@metalab.unc.edu> X-IMAP: 0921343314 0000003416 Status: RO This text is part of the internal format of your mail folder, and is not a real message. It is created automatically by the mail system software. If deleted, important folder data will be lost, and it will be re-created with the data reset to initial values. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 13 11:18:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17477 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:18:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00287; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:06:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from swiss.direct.ca (swiss.direct.ca [199.60.229.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00155 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:05:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0108.direct.ca ([204.244.83.8] helo=direct.ca) by swiss.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10LqwJ-0002Wh-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:07:10 -0800 Message-ID: <36EA8C89.49E9AF66@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:04:25 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: unable to receive/send mail References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1 The challenge is an additional one. I am trying to receive some 20 - 40 posts and store them. Then, I go through them step by step and either discharge them or answer. The answer I store in order to send it the next day - but what really irks me is the fact that (at times) my system or the connection or whatever breaks down and a long night's work is gone. Ferdinand Intergalactic Garage wrote: > >Dear friends, > > > >Living in the boonies has its disadvantages, too. My server does not > >have enough lines and I can only receive or send posts for about 4 - 5 > >hours per night. So, if you do not hear from you that much any longer, > >it is the server that has 'cut me out'. In the past I could 'digest' > >posts on an ongoing basis. At the moment there is a line : user > >relationship of 1:20 which is far too high. Regards Ferdinand > > Everyone: > > Many of us are faced with this problem. A remedy is on the horizon. Many of > the national long distance companies are offering internet connections as > part of your regular service. You might want to check in with AT&T or > Sprint, and so on. > > -Allan Balliett > igg@igg.com -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 13 11:25:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17549 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:25:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01112; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:15:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00834 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:12:19 -0500 (EST) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hEMOa14074 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:14:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <33ae8fa4.36ea8ed3@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:14:11 EST To: BDnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Opportunity Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2 Cornucopia Farms in Malibu, Ca. is looking for a BD farmer to start a CSA and educate school kids and adults. They are a non-profit outfit and have a generous salary to go with the job. Growing sites amount to about 16 acres and are discontiguous. Growing is year 'round in the coastal climate. Many grocery stores and restaurants will forward all compostable scraps for a community compost venture. Contact me for more info. Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 13 11:34:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17672 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:34:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01816; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:24:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from swiss.direct.ca (swiss.direct.ca [199.60.229.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01642 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:22:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0108.direct.ca ([204.244.83.8] helo=direct.ca) by swiss.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10LrDY-0003J6-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:24:52 -0800 Message-ID: <36EA90BB.238C48AB@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:22:19 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: banding, docking, and de-horning & etheric forces References: <1215265F5B24@agecon.uga.edu> <36E930F5.70718922@direct.ca> <36E948EE.8D4DE3F9@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3 My dear friend Rex, 18 years ago I had a son (who is now 25) who had the most deformed teeth arrangement one could imagine. I went to a dentist (in Germany) who happened to be an Anthroposophist. We discussed Chris' teeth and he said to me: There are two possibilities 1. We tear, re-set, brace and file or 2. You do Eurythmie (Dr. Steiner's movement) with him for a long time. IN the morning, for 10 minutes. Well, my son and I did it for 2 - 3 years. His teeth have re-arranged themselves totally. You see, Rex, the formative forces in our children (and animals) are starting to lose their connection to the creative centre (if one can simplify it that way). It is like an artist gone bonkers on a canvas without direction any longer. And so, the formative forces are 'painting' all over the place creating deformations in the most sensitive areas (and that, funny enough are the teeth and the skull). Here, the most intensive, the most exacting (again, if one want to call it that way) work has to be done (millimeter, thens of a millimeter work) so that the teeth fit onto each other. Well, if we do NOT love the creation, we will not go to work with it over long(er) periods of time. We are going to be challenged in our hearts. Cutting, trimming, operating, stunting, hacking etc. etc. are short term solutions which, as far as I am concerned, does not demand much love but rather technical know-how (well, a bit of love, too - to learn the techniqe). However, when you do Euruthmy with a child OR work eurythmically with nature, you have to become one with it first so that you may understand it better. You have to give up your (technical, preconceived) ideas and 'suffer' with the creation first BEFORE you can offer (short lived) solutions. Dr. Steiner's indications are indications for the very long term. Of course, we can see changes within a year or two when applying BD Preparations, however, the very long term changes will only become known in many, many generations. Again, much more could be said. Regards Ferdinand Rex Harrill wrote: > Ferdinand Vondruska wrote "Let me say this": > > > The tail of any animal is connected to is psyche. Every animal expresses > > its feelings via its tail. I can see that with my (small brain Ostriches) > > and my dogs, the cat, horses, cows and all. If you cut that part of or > > shorten it, the animal tends to get out of balance. Nature would take > > care of this by eliminating such 'a creation'. Sheep that cannot signal > > their pleasure or displeasure to their mates would, eventually, be > > eliminated by the wolf. > > > > Of course, mankind has done a lot of diforming of animals by Xbreeding, > > off-breeding, inbreeding, outbreeding and so forth. Most animals that we > > call domesticated would likely not survive by themselves in nature for > > long. It is likely that (if such breeds would survive for a while) future > > generations would start to 'approximate' their ancestors again. > > > > My sister is breeding Rottweiler (dogs) and by law (in Switzerland) and > > as of the year 2000 tails must NOT be cut any longer. What a different > > looking dog a Rottweiler with a long tail is. It is mindboggling. And > > now, by the 'power of this long tail' the entire pivoting point of the > > dog is shifting to the back. It is as if a new organ (i.e. the old one) > > has been added again and it is MUCH easier to read this dog again. > > > > Much more could be said. > > MUCH MORE COULD BE SAID! Good grief, must you contiually astound me? Can we stretch your > thought to cover the pitifully thin facial organs of so many of today's mineral-poor children? > Can we go so far as to recognize that pulling children's wisdom teeth and using tortuous metal > braces to reform their very skull bones is as barbaric as cutting off Rottweilers' tails? Can > we finally understand that we are castrating our children by not providing them abundant > mineral-rich fare? > > I *really* appreciated this post. Right now I'm wondering if there is a long line of would-be > apprentices forming for the no-pay privilege of working shoulder-to-shoulder for a season with > a man who sees the universe in marvelous light. > > Regards, > Rex Harrill -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 13 12:01:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17990 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 12:01:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04156; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:51:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from anat.ncds.net (anat.ncds.net [207.250.242.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03921 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:49:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from pavilion (p00-21.ffxp.ncds.net [207.250.242.176]) by anat.ncds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7-sp) with SMTP id KAA17219 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:52:23 -0600 Message-ID: <000d01be6d82$d34d7f00$b0f2facf@pavilion> From: "parker" To: Subject: zodiac-help-glen Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:52:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE6D3F.8DA4AF20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE6D3F.8DA4AF20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Glen- Oh how I wrestle and am fascinated with the planting calendar. I'm = trying to understand the concept that I copy below. If every 72 years we = drop 1 degree, after 2000 I figure we would drop 1 degree 27.777 times. = Now forgive me for being a fool but did the Greek calendar start with O = A.D., and how did Mrs. Henderson get 2000 years in 1989. So where are we = actually right now in 1999, and what does this say for a person born = December 3 of 1966. Am I not really a Sagittarius? This could shake some = things up for me, I have thought myself to be so typical of a Fire sign. = Will I have to change my ways? With stars, Parker Biodynamics: New directions for Farming and Gardening in New Zealand New Zealand Biodynamic Assoc. 1989 The Greek civilisation introduced the =91tropical=92 zodiac; an equal = division of the full 360 degree circle of the zodiac into 12 parts of 30 = degrees. In speaking about the zodiac, there is often some confusion over the use = of the terms =91constellations=92 and =91signs=92. When the Greeks = worked out their calendar, the vernal point stood at 0 degrees in the = sign of Aries, the star picture of the Ram. (The vernal point is the = position in the sky behind the rising sun on the spring equinox = (Northern Hemisphere). However, the cycle from one spring equinox to = another (tropical year) is approxiamately 20 minutes shorter than the = sun takes to return to a same fixed star (sidereal year). In other = words, the equinox is happening each year before the sun has reached the = same place in the zodiac as the previous year. Hence after 72 years the = sun at the equinox no longer rises in exactly the same place in the sky, = but one degree before. Thus, in the 2000 years since the Greeks, the = vernal point has moved into the previous sign; at present it is 16 = degrees Pisces, the star picture of the Fishes. Modern astrologers, = however, take no notice of what we can observe in the sky, but continue = to call the present vernal point =910 degrees Aries=92. Thus the names = for the astrological =91signs=92 no longer correlate with their star = pictures i.e. what can actually be seen in the sky. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE6D3F.8DA4AF20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Glen-
Oh how I wrestle and am fascinated = with the=20 planting calendar. I'm trying to understand the concept that I copy = below. If=20 every 72 years we drop 1 degree, after 2000 I figure we would drop 1 = degree=20 27.777 times. Now forgive me for being a fool but did the Greek calendar = start=20 with O A.D., and how did Mrs. Henderson get 2000 years in 1989. So where = are we=20 actually right now in 1999, and what does this say for a person born = December 3=20 of 1966. Am I not really a Sagittarius? This could shake some things up = for me,=20 I have thought myself to be so typical of a Fire sign. Will I have to = change my=20 ways?
 
With stars,
Parker

Biodynamics: New directions for Farming and Gardening in New = Zealand

New Zealand Biodynamic Assoc. 1989

The Greek civilisation introduced the ‘tropical’ zodiac; = an equal=20 division of the full 360 degree circle of the zodiac into 12 parts of 30 = degrees.

In speaking about the zodiac, there is often some confusion over the = use of=20 the terms ‘constellations’ and ‘signs’. When the = Greeks=20 worked out their calendar, the vernal point stood at 0 degrees in the = sign of=20 Aries, the star picture of the Ram. (The vernal point is the position in = the sky=20 behind the rising sun on the spring equinox (Northern Hemisphere). = However, the=20 cycle from one spring equinox to another (tropical year) is = approxiamately 20=20 minutes shorter than the sun takes to return to a same fixed star = (sidereal=20 year). In other words, the equinox is happening each year before = the sun=20 has reached the same place in the zodiac as the previous year. Hence = after 72=20 years the sun at the equinox no longer rises in exactly the same place = in the=20 sky, but one degree before. Thus, in the 2000 years since the Greeks, = the vernal=20 point has moved into the previous sign; at present it is 16 degrees = Pisces, the=20 star picture of the Fishes. Modern astrologers, however, take no notice = of what=20 we can observe in the sky, but continue to call the present vernal point = ‘0 degrees Aries’. Thus the names for the astrological=20 ‘signs’ no longer correlate with their star pictures i.e. = what can=20 actually be seen in the sky.

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE6D3F.8DA4AF20-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 13 12:22:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA18216 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 12:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06181; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 12:12:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com [207.46.181.18]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06007 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 12:10:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer - 153.37.26.86 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:12:47 -0800 Message-ID: <001501be6d74$522457e0$561a2599@oemcomputer> From: "Dr. Andrew Lorand" To: Subject: OFF: CSA Opportunity Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:09:13 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5 Dear Friends, Please, if you can, send me more specific information on this opportunity - as I would like to pass it on to the over 250 students I am working with at SRJC this semester (most of whom are adults i.e. older than the usual college crowd - many of which already have some experience). Do you have a flier? We have on-going courses right now on CSA, organic/ecological gardening (vegetables), commercial organic composting, organic specialty crop production (fruits, flowers & herbs), organic viticulture and ecological resource management at our college's 365 acre farm. We will also be offering advanced organic vegetable and fruit growing course in summer - so there a good sized group to canvas for potential farmers. We also have a very nice biodynamic community education program developing here (non-college-related) with roughly thirty participants - many of whom may also be interested. We'll be having another workshop fairly soon, so I could pass out fliers there too. Thanks and the best of luck finding just the right folks! Cheers, Andrew From london@metalab.unc.edu Sat Mar 13 15:44:08 1999 -0500 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA20630 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:44:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24327; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:33:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from rtfm.midcoast.com (root@dns.midcoast.com [206.26.226.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24021 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:30:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from jpt (liberty-c-017.midcoast.com [208.153.20.117]) by rtfm.midcoast.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA26990 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:33:12 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990313151549.007b4300@midcoast.com> X-Sender: stgeorge@midcoast.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:15:49 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "John P. Thomas and Kathleen Barrett" Subject: Re: banding, docking, and de-horning & etheric forces In-Reply-To: <36EA90BB.238C48AB@direct.ca> References: <1215265F5B24@agecon.uga.edu> <36E930F5.70718922@direct.ca> <36E948EE.8D4DE3F9@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6 Dear Rex, Ferdinand, and others, One of the most powerful books I have found which connects nutrition with dental health and/or dental degeneration is "NUTRITION AND PHYSICAL DEGENERATION" by Weston A. Price DDS, 512 pages. In the early 1930s Dr. Price and his wife traveled to every corner of the world to study the diets and health of 14 isolated native tribes in Africa, South America, Australia, Polynesia, as well as North American Indians and Eskimos. He compared the health of groups who only ate their historical native diet with people of the same tribe who ate diets of commerce -- white flour, white sugar, and processed foods. From the data, including hundreds of photographs, the Prices produced one of the most significant books on nutrition ever published. Its thesis, that the naturally chosen "primitive" diet promoted health and that the modern "civilized" diet, led to rapid degeneration of overall health and physical structure, was revolutionary for its time and far from generally accepted. The wealth of evidence and fascinating detail Dr. Price provides is as informative and valuable today as it was half a century ago. His investigations showed that it takes only one generation of eating a "Westernized" diet to produce severe dental caries, malformed jawbones, and misaligned teeth. Dr. Price practiced dentistry in Cleveland, Ohio. He died in 1948. The Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation of San Diego was established to disseminate his nutritional discoveries. > >You see, Rex, the formative forces in our children (and animals) are starting to lose their >connection to the creative centre (if one can simplify it that way). It is like an artist gone >bonkers on a canvas without direction any longer. And so, the formative forces are 'painting' all >over the place creating deformations in the most sensitive areas (and that, funny enough are the >teeth and the skull). Here Impaired connection with the formative forces show up in the teeth because each tooth is energetically linked to all systems of the body via the meridian pathways. Dr. Price's research showed that people who ate food raised and prepared according to their native dietary traditions, almost never had tooth decay or misaligned teeth. Even more interesting, was the practice in these cultures of modifying the diet prior to conceiving children. The diet was enhanced for both men and women to help the couple have the forces that were needed to produce healthy children. thanks, John St. George Farm Freedom, Maine, USA From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Mar 11 23:49:10 1999 -0500 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA17917 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:49:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02769; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:34:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from scn4.scn.org (scn4.scn.org [209.63.95.149]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02633 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:33:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from scn.org (bg006@scn [209.63.95.146]) by scn4.scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA27719 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:41:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bg006@localhost) by scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA27220; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:35:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:35:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903120435.UAA27220@scn.org> From: bg006@scn.org (Douglas Hendrickson) To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Grafting Wax Recipe containing Beeswax. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7 Thanks Jim for forwarding this! > >>From University of California publication 1981 - leaflet 21103 >Division of Agricultural Sciences. >"Propagation of Temperate-Zone Fruit Plants" p. 47. > >GRAFTING WAXES AND OTHER GRAFTING MATERIALS > >'A satisfactory hot wax consists of 5 pounds of resin, three-quarter >pound of beeswax, half pint of raw linseed oil, 1 oz lampblack, and 1 >and a half oz of flake glue. Melt the resin first, then add and melt >the beeswax. Remove the mixture from the heat and stir in the linseed >oil and lampblack. Use a double boiler to heat the glue, use just >enough water to disolve the glue. Then add the glue slowly (while >stirring) to the wax, which has cooled somewhat but is still liquid. >If you add the glue too rapidly while the wax is still warm, the entire >mass will boil over. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 13 18:04:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA22027 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 18:04:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07095; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:51:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06932 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:49:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d141.infoserve.net [199.175.157.141]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA19508 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:54:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001001be6da4$1875f3c0$8d9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: banding, docking, and de-horning & etheric forces Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:48:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 8 Dear John, Ferdy &bdnow, My father, Steven, worked in South America and West Africa in the 1950's. As an mining engineer on exploration on foot, he worked with several native groups. He found that most had never seen a toothbrush in their life but had perfect teeth while eating their traditional diets. My father came to the same conclusion, unscientifically. I have also read years ago how not only the teeth are affected by "processed" diet, but, there are other general health affects as well. One of the more well-known one is diabetes. Very high in the Canadian native populations. Directly linked to the white-man's diet. Michael -----Original Message----- From: John P. Thomas and Kathleen Barrett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, March 13, 1999 12:54 PM Subject: Re: banding, docking, and de-horning & etheric forces >Dear Rex, Ferdinand, and others, > >One of the most powerful books I have found which connects nutrition with >dental health and/or dental degeneration is "NUTRITION AND PHYSICAL >DEGENERATION" by Weston A. Price DDS, 512 pages. > > In the early 1930s Dr. Price and his wife traveled to every corner of the >world to study the diets and health of 14 isolated native tribes in Africa, >South America, Australia, Polynesia, as well as North American Indians and >Eskimos. He compared the health of groups who only ate their historical >native diet with people of the same tribe who ate diets of commerce -- >white flour, white sugar, and processed foods. From the data, including >hundreds of photographs, the Prices produced one of the most significant >books on nutrition ever published. Its thesis, that the naturally chosen >"primitive" diet promoted health and that the modern "civilized" diet, led >to rapid degeneration of overall health and physical structure, was >revolutionary for its time and far from generally accepted. The wealth of >evidence and fascinating detail Dr. Price provides is as informative and >valuable today as it was half a century ago. His investigations showed >that it takes only one generation of eating a "Westernized" diet to produce >severe dental caries, malformed jawbones, and misaligned teeth. Dr. Price >practiced dentistry in Cleveland, Ohio. He died in 1948. The >Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation of San Diego was established to >disseminate his nutritional discoveries. > >> >>You see, Rex, the formative forces in our children (and animals) are >starting to lose their >>connection to the creative centre (if one can simplify it that way). It is >like an artist gone >>bonkers on a canvas without direction any longer. And so, the formative >forces are 'painting' all >>over the place creating deformations in the most sensitive areas (and >that, funny enough are the >>teeth and the skull). Here > >Impaired connection with the formative forces show up in the teeth because >each tooth is energetically linked to all systems of the body via the >meridian pathways. Dr. Price's research showed that people who ate food >raised and prepared according to their native dietary traditions, almost >never had tooth decay or misaligned teeth. Even more interesting, was the >practice in these cultures of modifying the diet prior to conceiving >children. The diet was enhanced for both men and women to help the couple >have the forces that were needed to produce healthy children. > >thanks, John > > >St. George Farm >Freedom, Maine, USA > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 13 20:20:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA23353 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:20:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA17229; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:09:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA16939 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:07:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from bio (kmidc67-75.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.75]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA12019 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:09:47 +1100 Message-ID: <009501be6db7$4136b660$4b431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Basalt dust Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:48:20 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 9 RE basalt dust. One aspect that I have learned of lately is that the paramagnetic quality is most important aspect. Phillip Callaghan has a machine out that tests this, and apparently you can be wasting your time and money if you don't use the rock dust with the higher paramagnetic qualities. The other point is that it must be 30 microns, (like talcum powder) to be absorbed easily by the soil. It is used a lot in Australian BD farms, as our soils are old and leached and desperately need re mineralising. Cheryl Kemp Education & Advisory Coordinator Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 -----Original Message----- From: Wm Hurrle To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999 2:01 am Subject: Re: Basalt dust > >Dear All, > > Rock dusts: The magazine is Remineralize the Earth, 152 South St., >Northampton, MA 01060, 413-586-4429, -6064 fax, ReminEarth@aol.com. Three >issues a year for $25. This is 1996 information. > The Survival of Civilization by John D.Hamaker & Donald A. Weaver, ISBN >0-941550-00-1, Hamaker-Weaver Publishers, POB 1961, Seymour, MO 65746, $12. >This is a remarkable book. > The oldest information on the subject I know is the 1894 monograph, >Bread from Stones, by Julius Hensel. I got a mimeo copy translated from the >German from Health Research, POB 70, Mokelumene Hill, CA 95245. > Another source is The Enlivened Rock Powders by Harvey Lisle, 4427 State >Rt.601, Norwalk, OH 44857, $15 + $1.50 s&h. I've not read this book. ACRES, >usa, is into it. Christopher Bird also wrote about remineralization. I think >ATTRA has a publication on it, too. > Soil microbes need the widest menu of elements possible to be healthy. >Correct management of the carbon cycle is not enough. Since the last glacier >ground and distributed rock dust, precipitation and our lousy ag have >leached elements out of the soils. To keep them healthy rock dust >ammendments are needed. There are numbers of businesses devoted to supplying >special rock dust conditioners. The aggregate industry is aware of the ag >use of fines that are otherwise a drag on their operations. Contact the >state associations. Remin the Earth will send a list of them for $1 and a >SASE. There are outfits in Europe and Australia that sell minerals, too. > >Regards, > >Wm Hurrle > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 13 20:21:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA23382 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:20:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA17154; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:09:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA16938 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:07:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from bio (kmidc67-75.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.75]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA12016 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:09:43 +1100 Message-ID: <009401be6db7$3fa3e160$4b431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: spraying by air Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:37:01 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 10 Dear David, Your parachute idea sounds interesting. Spraying 500 on by air is done often in Australia and NZ on large areas. It is quite a set up getting the water heated and 500 stirred in a large enough quantity for the plane to fill up, but saves a lot of time and energy when covering 100s of hectares. There is one valley in NZ where about three famers join together to share the stirring, (by flowform) and one has the whole set up next to the airstrip, and they share the cost of the plane and get all their properties sprayed together. Their land is from mountain peaks to river flats, so would be very difficult to cover by tractor. They also make their own fish emulsion and spray that on as well. Hamish Mackay, who is a BD member in Australia hmackay@ozemail.com.au used to go around with the equipment to stir and would arrange flying on, so if you wanted further information he could help you. I like the idea of parachutes for 501, as one of the problems we have for say grain crops is if they are not sown in rows leaving tractor tracks, then it is hard to get the 501 out without damage to the crop. I will have to get more experiments done with the towers to see if that can help here too. We also need to look at ways to get sprays on when it is too wet to take the tractors out as has been happening here lately. David, how to you control the direction of the parachute? Is it like those remote controlled boats and planes? Sounds like a great idea for Australia, can you send me more info. Thanks, bio@midcoast.com.au Ferdinand thought that the droplets would be too fine or high to work, but all I know is that putting 500 on by air works, and I think they use quite a heavy spray to get the droplets to earth. Great idea, Cheryl Kemp Education & Advisory Coordinator Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 ---Original Message----- From: Intergalactic Garage To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999 12:58 am Subject: Re: spraying by air >It probably is a shortcoming of my own that there is no 'introductory >statement' required for joining the BD Now! community. (Of course, a great >many people prefer that!) In a case like David Griffith's, this shortcoming >becomes glaring. > >For those of you who do not know, David is the founder/owner/manager of 7 >Stars Farm in Kimberton (OK, you knew that much) David and his family make >the absolute best yogurt (Seven Stars) that you can buy in a health food >store. (The thick cream on the top of the original version is a dream to we >Sally Fallon fans!! :-) 7 Stars also makes several wonderful varieties of >cheeses, but these, as far as I know, are not distrubted commercially. > >David knows what he is doing with BD, the proof is in his 'pudding.' > >All this makes the question below all the more interesting! > >David, I have to ask: how much acreage do you prep yearly and how often do >you spray a farm that is as well established as yours? > >-Allan Balliett >moderator >BD Now! >igg@igg.com > > > >>I am looking into spraying preps by powered parachutes. These are slow moving >>(26 mph), relatively safe, high payload (800 -1000 lbs), and not too >>expensive. The idea would be to use a boomless jet and an electric diaphram >>pump to deliver about 2 to 3 gal./acre from about 50 -60 ft above the ground >>(out of the way of lines and trees). Spaying times would be early morning >>(501) and early evenings (500). Any comments or suggestions? David Griffiths >>Seven Stars Farm, Kimberton PA > > > > >=========================================================================== > >BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, >dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food >that promotes human development. > >To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to > >listproc@envirolink.org > >In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): > >subscribe bdnow > >If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com > >a message to listproc@envirolink.org > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 13 21:07:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA23683 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 21:07:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA20932; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA20751 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:51:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.84]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990314015430.WRFB682101.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:54:30 +1300 Message-ID: <36EB170F.CEA@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:55:27 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: zodiac -help-glen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11 > Dear Glen- Parker did you read the article I posted on this subject a couple of weeks ago? > Oh how I wrestle and am fascinated with the planting calendar. I'm trying to understand the concept that I copy below. If every 72 > years we drop 1 degree, after 2000 I figure we would drop 1 degree 27.777 times. Now forgive me for being a fool but did the Greek > calendar start with O A.D., I must say when I think about it I do not really know. I had always considered our calendar was created by the Romans. It would not have been orientated to the Christs birth until 300AD or so when the roman emporers became Christian. The adoption of the tropical zodiac in modern times was initiated by Ptolemy ( a greek) in around 200AD as I understand it (AIUI). It was not specifical connected to the christ. It was more an orientating on the spring equinox of the Earth as a time frame and 12 fold division of the Earth, rather than a twelvefold orientation to the constellations. This is an 'Earthing' action as I am sure you can imagine. I understand the tropical zodiac was used in Eygpt prior to the Greeks. So this is just a renewal of an old system. The act of moving a universal law to another reference point is a very common astrological practise. AIUI it was more a coincidence that Ptolemy noticed the spring equinox was 200 years prior to himself and that it feel at the time of Christ birth than a conscious action. A touch of universal synchronisty one might say. Ptolemy was the first guy to measure the movement of the stars in relationship to one another for some hundreds of years and so would have come across such a thing. and how did Mrs. Henderson get 2000 years in 1989. sorry not sure what you are talking about here. So where are we actually right now in 1999, The piece you quoted said the spring equinox is at 16 degrees Pisces. Is this a miss print. I hope so, or the BDANZ have done it again - out there in their own belief of the truth. There are three systems of constellational division as I understand it. The most common ones AIUI are a equal division of the zodiac using Alderbaren and Antares as the mid points of Taurus and Scorpio. An unequal system based on this same starting point, and another unequal division the BDANZ ensures us is accepted by the international Astronomical union. The first has us about 3 deg Pisces, the second about 4 degress and the third I understand is between 6-7 degrees. Changeover is between 216 years and 504 years. There are all sorts of debates that arise from this of course. As if we have uneven constellations then we will have uneven ages of evolution as well and if this is so, then our neat little maths of each age lasting 2156 years is only based on an equal division reality. An assiduous study of ancient history would be needed to pinpoint the exact dates of age changes. Till now it is very easy for us to use the 2156 years per age, math. This may easily be the case of course. and what > does this say for a person born December 3 of 1966. Am I not really a Sagittarius? You are a sign of Sagittarius and a constellation of Scorpio person. You are both Interestingly you are a 10 degree Sagittarius. Pluto is conjuncting you right now and moving over a strong part of your chart in the next couple of years. Might I suggest you seek out a good local Astrologer and go and have a chat to them about what this can mean for you. We also come onto what is the sign area of your being and what is the constellation area. refer my earlier article. Essentially the sign being is the chart of the incarnated spirt and the constellational chart is the chart of the unincarnated aspects of yourself, still with the universal spirit. Very unconscious stuff usually. You are both. This same sort of definition can be seen between the Geocentric or earth centre chart and the helio centred or Sun centred chart. So that the Geocentric Tropical chart is a real earth incarnation bound chart, while the Sidereal heliocentric chart is a major spiritual chart. And there are several inbetween charts one can used to see different snap shots of the same being. This could shake some things up for me, I have > thought myself to be so typical of a Fire sign. Will I have to change my ways? On earth you probably are , as you develop spiritually (on earth) you will become more of a scorpio. The spiritual chart appears to come from inside out while the material chart appears to come form outside in. Life is the balance of the two. As always all is one. I hope this helps your quest. Cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 03:44:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA29259 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 03:44:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA14571; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 03:30:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA14506 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 03:29:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0114.direct.ca ([204.244.83.14] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10M6JL-00033e-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 00:31:51 -0800 Message-ID: <36EB7340.5D6358EC@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 00:28:48 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: A smelly Subject and goat horns References: <01BE6BBF.FAFA8440@FLYLO> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 12 Dear Martha, Bury the horns in your compost for about 3 months (make sure no dog can get it). Once the inside of the horn has decayed, we will talk about it again. Regards Ferdinand Martha Wells wrote: > When I milk my goats, I tend to give them the sniff test. Breath, hide, > (just a random quick check to make sure everyone is in 'working order'.) > You know by the breath if the rumen is off kilter, and if the hair / hide > isn't healthy, the animal has been ill for awhile. Their healthy skin > always smell like pure sunshine to me. I have a very small tomato I plant > not because I like the fruit so much, but the plant smells exactly like > healthy horse sweat! > I haven't had cause to sniff any livestock in a confined stall situation, > but I imagine they would have a stale odor. I HAVE driven past broiler > 'factories', and you can't drive fast enough or hold your nose long enough. > How do the people who live/work those places stand it? Not to mention the > animals they're attempting to raise. > For Allan, the horn topic: > (I know it's the other end you are worried about, but this is a 'fer > instance': > Just hauled Amelia to the vet, a 3 yr old milker and the only one with > horns. She was pretty good about not getting caught in the fences with > them, but she did use them on the other goats. Our herd queen is 14 yrs > old, and when Amelia vied for queen spot and knocked Mesmerizer for a loop, > I said, they're OFF. Vet charge: $24.50, not bad, but the drugs (rompum, > some antibiotic, some other inflammatory stuff, will remain in her milk for > a couple of weeks. She'll be off milk production now for about that long, > and the risk of knocking a ruminant out is always very high. So, if you > think you might ever want to dehorn a goat, don't wait till it's a regret, > do it while they're babies and won't remember too much. If you have small > children around pet goats, you'll always have to watch the horns. A nose, > an eye, little hands all can get hooked by accident. > For Ferdinand: I now have 2 rather fresh goat horns but they're still > filled with 'chalk', how do I clean them and should I bother? (martha) -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 06:56:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA03528 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:56:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA20714; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA20500 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:39:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.150] (pm3shep2-163-85.intrepid.net [209.190.163.85]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA12587 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:42:16 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:44:23 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 13 remove bdnow julie tyling@algonet.se add bdnow julie donnas@yancey.main.nc.us Donna Shalooie remove bdnow julie p-dwyer@aloha.net add bdnow julie livepower@igc.apc.org gloria decater From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 07:08:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA03795 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 07:08:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA21267; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:54:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA21107 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:51:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.150] (pm3shep2-163-85.intrepid.net [209.190.163.85]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA13335 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:53:49 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:55:59 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 14 delete bdnow tubbo tyling@algonet.se delete bdnow tubbo p-dwyer@aloha.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 07:11:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA03881 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 07:11:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA21401; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:57:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA21290 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:54:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.150] (pm3shep2-163-85.intrepid.net [209.190.163.85]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA13601 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:57:18 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:59:17 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: ADMIN: Routing Test Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 15 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 08:03:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA04929 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:03:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA23202; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 07:48:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from anat.ncds.net (anat.ncds.net [207.250.242.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA23102 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 07:44:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from pavilion (p00-93.ffxp.ncds.net [207.250.242.248]) by anat.ncds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7-sp) with SMTP id GAA29962 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:47:37 -0600 Message-ID: <000f01be6e29$cbcd5aa0$f8f2facf@pavilion> From: "parker" To: Subject: Re: zodiac -help-glen Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:47:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 16 Dear Glen- Thanks much for the info. I'm not sure I recall the article, would you be able to send it my way via e-mail? Very interesting, the notion that spiritually I could be moving toward Scorpio, I will have to read some of Scorpio. I will also look up a local astrologer, the Pluto conjucting me worries me some. Take care, Parker -----Original Message----- From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, March 13, 1999 5:57 PM Subject: zodiac -help-glen >> Dear Glen- > >Parker did you read the article I posted on this subject a couple of >weeks ago? > > >> Oh how I wrestle and am fascinated with the planting calendar. I'm trying to understand the concept that I copy below. If every 72 >> years we drop 1 degree, after 2000 I figure we would drop 1 degree 27.777 times. Now forgive me for being a fool but did the Greek >> calendar start with O A.D., > > >I must say when I think about it I do not really know. I had always >considered our calendar was created by the Romans. It would not have >been orientated to the Christs birth until 300AD or so when the roman >emporers became Christian. > >The adoption of the tropical zodiac in modern times was initiated by >Ptolemy ( a greek) in around 200AD as I understand it (AIUI). It was not >specifical connected to the christ. It was more an orientating on the >spring equinox of the Earth as a time frame and 12 fold division of the >Earth, rather than a twelvefold orientation to the constellations. This >is an 'Earthing' action as I am sure you can imagine. > >I understand the tropical zodiac was used in Eygpt prior to the Greeks. >So this is just a renewal of an old system. The act of moving a >universal law to another reference point is a very common astrological >practise. > >AIUI it was more a coincidence that Ptolemy noticed the spring equinox >was 200 years prior to himself and that it feel at the time of Christ >birth than a conscious action. A touch of universal synchronisty one >might say. Ptolemy was the first guy to measure the movement of the >stars in relationship to one another for some hundreds of years and so >would have come across such a thing. > > > and how did Mrs. Henderson get 2000 years in 1989. > >sorry not sure what you are talking about here. > > So where are we actually right now in 1999, > > > >The piece you quoted said the spring equinox is at 16 degrees Pisces. > >Is this a miss print. I hope so, or the BDANZ have done it again - out >there in their own belief of the truth. > >There are three systems of constellational division as I understand it. >The most common ones AIUI are a equal division of the zodiac using >Alderbaren and Antares as the mid points of Taurus and Scorpio. An >unequal system based on this same starting point, and another unequal >division the BDANZ ensures us is accepted by the international >Astronomical union. The first has us about 3 deg Pisces, the second >about 4 degress and the third I understand is between 6-7 degrees. >Changeover is between 216 years and 504 years. > >There are all sorts of debates that arise from this of course. As if we >have uneven constellations then we will have uneven ages of evolution as >well and if this is so, then our neat little maths of each age lasting >2156 years is only based on an equal division reality. An assiduous >study of ancient history would be needed to pinpoint the exact dates of >age changes. Till now it is very easy for us to use the 2156 years per >age, math. This may easily be the case of course. > > > >and what >> does this say for a person born December 3 of 1966. Am I not really a Sagittarius? > >You are a sign of Sagittarius and a constellation of Scorpio person. You >are both > >Interestingly you are a 10 degree Sagittarius. Pluto is conjuncting you >right now and moving over a strong part of your chart in the next couple >of years. Might I suggest you seek out a good local Astrologer and go >and have a chat to them about what this can mean for you. > >We also come onto what is the sign area of your being and what is the >constellation area. refer my earlier article. Essentially the sign being >is the chart of the incarnated spirt and the constellational chart is >the chart of the unincarnated aspects of yourself, still with the >universal spirit. Very unconscious stuff usually. You are both. > >This same sort of definition can be seen between the Geocentric or earth >centre chart and the helio centred or Sun centred chart. So that the >Geocentric Tropical chart is a real earth incarnation bound chart, while >the Sidereal heliocentric chart is a major spiritual chart. And there >are several inbetween charts one can used to see different snap shots of >the same being. > > This could shake some things up for me, I have >> thought myself to be so typical of a Fire sign. Will I have to change my ways? > >On earth you probably are , as you develop spiritually (on earth) you >will become more of a scorpio. > >The spiritual chart appears to come from inside out while the material >chart appears to come form outside in. Life is the balance of the two. >As always all is one. > > >I hope this helps your quest. > >Cheers > >Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 08:54:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA05987 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:54:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25165; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:40:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA25045 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:37:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.150] (pm3shep1-163-23.intrepid.net [209.190.163.23]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA23518 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:40:07 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:42:12 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: OFF:Richard Alan Miller Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 17 Please let me know if you've taken a workshop or attended a lecture by herbalist Richard Alan Miller. Thank you, -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 09:47:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07920 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:47:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28014; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:34:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27847 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:31:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.21]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-53521U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:34:56 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:34:02 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: March 13, 1999 - March 19, 1999 Message-ID: <6B6FD883D158C0EF85256734004FFFBE.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id JAA27848 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 18 Calendar of the Soul [March 13, 1999 - March 19, 1999] Forty-ninth Week (March 9-15) I feel the force of cosmic life: Thus speaks my clarity of thought, Recalling its own spirit growth Through nights of cosmic darkness, And to the new approach of cosmic day It turns its inward rays of hope. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Ich fühle Kraft des Weltenseins: So spricht Gedankenklarheit, Gedenkend eignen Geistes Wachsen In finstern Weltennächten, Und neigt dem nahen Weltentage Des Innen Hoffnungsstrahlen. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+49 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 11:48:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11531 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06350; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:36:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from dns1.mcn.org (root@dns1.mcn.org [204.189.12.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06104 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:33:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from 204.189.12.80 (ha-3e-men-m045.mcn.org [204.189.12.80]) by dns1.mcn.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id IAA23443 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:36:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36EB75F4.5F8F@mcn.org> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:40:20 +0000 From: Kate Clarke Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Foxglove Farm (707) 937-4116 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: COTS: March 13, 1999 - March 19, 1999 References: <6B6FD883D158C0EF85256734004FFFBE.0000000000000000@webcity> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 19 Dear Jane, Could you mail us the next few weeks of planting info from the Calander of Souls. I jut sent the order in for one but really need the info ASAP. Our greenhouses are full of starts and we need to get on the next round. Where do you farm? We are part of the Northern Ca. Family of farms, just sixteen miles from the coast. To all in the BD family; come visit as Mendocino is a paradise! We have camping, for a small fee, and incredible dinners all summer long. Join staff and crew at Foxglove Farm. Write for a brochure, Foxglove Farm, Box 143 Comptche, Ca. 95427 Thanks, Kate Clark From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 11:56:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11788 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06997; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:45:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06865 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:44:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.132.152] (max4-24.stc.net [208.210.132.152]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA28839 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:46:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36DAEDA6.4CA8BBBC@direct.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:28:05 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: The sun as a Being calling forth the earth's warmth Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 20 >Dear friends, > >Every spring, every summer and throughout the whole year I work with a >question that simply does not get out of my mind. > >Does the sun really send down warmth (via its rays)? > >There are many observations that contradict this theory. And here is one >that I made in the past days> As you know it's been snowing like make - >for days. By now, and at 30 degrees Farenheit - we should have about >(lets say several) feet of snow. Yet, every morning only a few inches, >if that, have remained. > >So, could it be that the sun, actually, is calling forth the warmth of >the earth? Could it be that, like Dr. Steiner indicated that the water >of the seven seas wishes to go back to the moon, hence following it (and >not being attracted) the warmth of the earth wishes to follow the sun, >too? Could it be that what is living inside the earth, what has come >from the sun, is homesick and wishes to return home - E.T. GO HOME >(forgive me for this blurr...) SUNLIGHT GO HOME....!>!......... and, as >it is oozing tto the surface of the earth, is melting the snow from >underneath? > >Could it be what Dr. Pfeiffer has observed, that the sunlight, the sun's >warmth streaming into the earth at about 9m per day (27 - 30' per day) >that this light, transformed into warmth, wishes to go home again. > >Mysteries over mysteries. The sun is coming back. And, Dr. STeiner makes >it very clear that Persephone, the daughter of Demeter, is coming to the >surface of the earth again - how? look at the green shoots, look at the >emerging leaves, look at the flowers, the grain, the buds: she's >arriving. All the best Ferdinand Ferdy, Ever notice how when you cover up a patch in winter it stays green underneath, but do that in summer and it's dead in a weeK? That's holding the sun into the earth. I can't say for sure, but the earth does seem to give off heat and light when the sun strikes it. It does come from the surface upwards. Hope these observations help. Hugh >-- > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >------------- > >FRIENDS: >To help remedy and heal the extensive damage that has been done to cows >(feedlots, AI, hormones, >excessive use of antibioticas, fast breeding, feeding of meat and silage >etc.), 1999 is: >MY YEAR OF THE COW. Please, e-mail me any info, web site addresses, >references, statistics >or your personal observations and stories related to cows. >I thank you for your help. Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "A menial task which must be mine, that shall I glorify and make an art of it."--Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 11:58:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11835 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:58:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07085; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:46:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06886 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:44:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.132.152] (max4-24.stc.net [208.210.132.152]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA28889 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:46:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36DB498D.154B8C73@direct.ca> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:45:43 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Agsyn.com web page Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 21 >WITHOUT PREJUDICE > > >Dear Geoff, > >I do not want to get involved in a law case here; although it would be rather >difficult to make a case. Last year, however, I was threatened by Greg Willis >because I sent him a picture of 'a ram's head' that I needed to make >Preparation #505. I thought that he, too, was an able, well versed and >informed Preparation maker. I sent the same picture to other BDNOW addresses. > >Greg took my post as a personal attack and threatened me with the RCMP, the >FBI and a monster law case. Things got so badly out of hand that I stepped >back from any further contact with Greg Willis. > >However, a few months later, someone emailed me a letter with certain attacks >on Greg Willis and I defended him since I felt that a lot of things that were >said in this post could not be verified or were (likely) wrong. By mistake I >emailed this letter, to Greg - whereupon Greg immediately came back, argued my >defense (how shortsighted I was - that I did not know etc. etc.) yet, he asked >me whether I would want to become his spiritual student etc. etc. He also >included a few lessons of what I had to do in order to be accepted. > >I did not know what to do and sent him a nice reply; basically turning down >his offer. I did not want to offend him. He followed up by telling me that I, >under no circumstances, was ready for him and that I would have to work on >myself for many more years. It became offensive yet again. > >Well, I really do not need to be a student to a man who threatened me with all >kinds of stuff and who used foulest language against me. So, do I need to say >more? > >Of course, we are on a continent on which free speech is protected (- in the >US - I forget which XYZ Amendment), and that is beautiful. But I do not need >to be 'amended' by any personal attack(s) - and that is that. > >There are other statements of Greg's that do not fit BD; I do not have the >time to play detective. He is 'free' to say what he thinks and whoever uses >his info will have to check it him/herself (as should be done with any info >that comes across the Web and BDNOW) We all are exposed to a variety of >challenges (mental, physical, financial etc. etc.) and Greg has his, I am >sure. > >I understand that there may be a person (or two) on this list that communicate >with Greg Willis on a regular basis; and I hear that they are preparing a case >against those who, apparently, attack him slanderously. I do not know of any >slanderous attacks on Greg Willis. His attacks on me have been composted and >are, now, well rotted. > >With kind regards: Ferdinand Vondruska > > >PS I am pretty sure I never sent that quote via BDNOW! Where did you get it >from? > >Geoff Heinricks wrote: > >> >Agsyn.com is working with Greg Willis and, as far as I am concerned, many >> >things >> >are amiss there. Regards Ferdinand >> >> Ferdinand, >> >> >From what I've seen, you're not one to shy away from fully outlining your >> reasons. I'd appreciate your thoughts on how and why you've come to this >> conclusion. >> >> Cheers, >> Geoff Heinricks >> Prince Edward Co >> Ontario > > > >-- > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >------------- > >FRIENDS: >To help remedy and heal the extensive damage that has been done to cows >(feedlots, AI, hormones, >excessive use of antibiotics, fast breeding, feeding of meat and silage etc.), >1999 is: >MY YEAR OF THE COW. Please, e-mail me any info, web site addresses, >references, statistics >or your personal observations and stories related to cows. >I thank you for your help. Dear Greg, Seems unseamsly lawsuits and all, But keep me informed. Hugh Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "A menial task which must be mine, that shall I glorify and make an art of it."--Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 11:58:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11859 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:58:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07274; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:48:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06896 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:44:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.132.152] (max4-24.stc.net [208.210.132.152]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA28904 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:47:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38a9623a.36dc0363@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:59:04 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Study L3:2 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 22 >To Margaret Kemp: >In answer to your question I am enlarging the quote from "The Work of the >Angels in Man's Astral Body", R.Steiner. Although it has more social focus, I >did find a certain "nitrogen" quality therein. By the way, the booklet is >normally available from Anthroposphic Press, temporarily out of print >Christine >(abbreviated, pages 8-10) >...these beings form pictures in the human astral body. Under the guidance of >the Spirits of Form (Exusiai) the Angels form pictures. Unless we reach the >level of imaginative cognition we do not know that pictures are all the time >being formed in our astral body. They rise and pass away, burt without them >there would be no evolution into the future...The Spirits of Form are obliged >to unfold in pictures to begin with what they desire to achieve with us during >Earth evolution and beyond. And then later on, the pictures become reality in >a humanity transformed...If we are able to scrutinize these pictures, it >becomes evident that they are woven in accordance with quite definite impulses >and principles...it is clear that they have a very definite plan for the >future configuration of social life on earth...And indeed in forming these >pictures the Angels work on a definite principle, namely, that in the future >no human being is to find peace in the enjoyment of happiness if others are >unhappy. An impulse of brother and sisterhood in the absolute sense...is to be >the governing principle of the social conditions in physical existence. That >is the one principle in accordance with which the angels form the pictures in >our astral body. But there is a second impulse...that in future times every >human being shall see in each and everyone a hidden divinity. Hidden this thro-response. Shucks. Hugh Lovel Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "A menial task which must be mine, that shall I glorify and make an art of it."--Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 12:00:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA11923 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:00:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07419; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:49:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06921 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:44:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.132.152] (max4-24.stc.net [208.210.132.152]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA28942 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:47:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:46:04 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: agsyn.com Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 23 >FORWARD: Sent to "webmaster@envirolink.org" and myself today. Your >suggestion, please. -AB > > > >Allan, > >Well, you've really taken BDNOW to a new low by printing this letter >from Ferdy. I hope you're proud of your accomplishment. Ferdy may, or >may not, be hearing from our attorneys just yet but I will bring this >incident up with our attorneys this week to consider what action we >might appropriately take against your ISP, you personally and BDNOW for >printing such unfounded lies and slander. > >I warned you about this last week and you refused to stop it though I >asked you several times to do so. We will take every legal action >available to us to remedy the harm that has been done and to assure that >it does not happen in the future. > >Greg Willis > >******* > >Message-ID: <36DB498D.154B8C73@direct.ca> >Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:14:38 -0800 >From: Ferdinand Vondruska >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Re: Agsyn.com web page >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greg, You've got to develop thicker skin.This flying off the handle is pointless and counterproductive, isn't it? Hugh Lovel >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >WITHOUT PREJUDICE > > >Dear Geoff, > >I do not want to get involved in a law case here; although it would be >rather >difficult to make a case. Last year, however, I was threatened by Greg >Willis >because I sent him a picture of 'a ram's head' that I needed to make >Preparation #505. I thought that he, too, was an able, well versed and >informed Preparation maker. I sent the same picture to other BDNOW >addresses. > >Greg took my post as a personal attack and threatened me with the RCMP, >the >FBI and a monster law case. Things got so badly out of hand that I >stepped >back from any further contact with Greg Willis. > >However, a few months later, someone emailed me a letter with certain >attacks >on Greg Willis and I defended him since I felt that a lot of things that >were >said in this post could not be verified or were (likely) wrong. By >mistake I >emailed this letter, to Greg - whereupon Greg immediately came back, >argued my >defense (how shortsighted I was - that I did not know etc. etc.) yet, he >asked >me whether I would want to become his spiritual student etc. etc. He >also >included a few lessons of what I had to do in order to be accepted. > >I did not know what to do and sent him a nice reply; basically turning >down >his offer. I did not want to offend him. He followed up by telling me >that I, >under no circumstances, was ready for him and that I would have to work >on >myself for many more years. It became offensive yet again. > >Well, I really do not need to be a student to a man who threatened me >with all >kinds of stuff and who used foulest language against me. So, do I need >to say >more? > >Of course, we are on a continent on which free speech is protected (- >in the >US - I forget which XYZ Amendment), and that is beautiful. But I do not >need >to be 'amended' by any personal attack(s) - and that is that. > >There are other statements of Greg's that do not fit BD; I do not have >the >time to play detective. He is 'free' to say what he thinks and whoever >uses >his info will have to check it him/herself (as should be done with any >info >that comes across the Web and BDNOW) We all are exposed to a variety of >challenges (mental, physical, financial etc. etc.) and Greg has his, I >am >sure. > >I understand that there may be a person (or two) on this list that >communicate >with Greg Willis on a regular basis; and I hear that they are preparing >a case >against those who, apparently, attack him slanderously. I do not know of >any >slanderous attacks on Greg Willis. His attacks on me have been composted >and >are, now, well rotted. > >With kind regards: Ferdinand Vondruska > > >PS I am pretty sure I never sent that quote via BDNOW! Where did you get >it >from? Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "A menial task which must be mine, that shall I glorify and make an art of it."--Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 13:00:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA13928 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:00:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11706; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11537 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:46:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0104.direct.ca ([204.244.83.4] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10MF0P-0002Dc-00; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:48:54 -0800 Message-ID: <36EBF5BD.EC04576F@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:45:33 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, "Hirschnitz, Michaela" Subject: Re: earthworm curiosity References: <01BE6A09.342459C0@FLYLO> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 24 Dear Martha, I am not an earthworm specialist; but worms are really attracted to areas where they can do a job, mate and proliferate. As long as the killing off is less than the result of their mating process, they will be there for a long time to come. When I look at the composting area and what punishment they have to take there, then, I am constantly surprised that they continue to stay and work. It reminds me of a time of this earth (as Steiner describes) when this earth was a fertile mass of swampy material. Of course, a tranquil, shadowy and moisty place would be the very best (and, mind you, I do find the fattest and somehow wisest worms in these grounds - kind of Grandfathers) But, the 'young folks' (so it appears) like to be where the action is: where we dump manure, where we pile it, where the animals drop their manure, where the soil is being moved, where there is a lot of putrification, also smell etc.. And so they shift around, constantly. But the true mating areas, I come to understand, are in sections of the composting ground where there is silence, tranquility, moisture and calm (but smelly) putrification. And then, there seems to be the graveyard, too. When summer approaches and the lot has to go deeper down, two feet or so in order to either dye or hybernate (or summernate). A drought is tough on worms. REgards Ferdinand PS my spell checker has gone on the blink (at least for this post) .....so, take it from here. Martha Wells wrote: > I have 2 little earthworm bins in my kitchen, just doing a great job on the > refuse we have to toss. I am curious, tho. I started with one bin, and they > happily mated and grew and I had to separate them after ... about 3 months > of 'work'. > I understand that earthworms key on vibrations, and people walking over > their pat of soil keeps them edgy. So, why, then, are mine so productive in > an obviously hi traffic area? I have a 17 yr old cat who warms the top bin > by sleeping on there 90% of the day, I'd think that would unnerve them too. > Are there any earthworm specialists onboard? > (martha) -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 13:05:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14110 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:05:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12306; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:54:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12225 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:54:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0104.direct.ca ([204.244.83.4] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10MF7w-0002do-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:56:40 -0800 Message-ID: <36EBF78F.A40C395F@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:53:19 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Health & teeth References: <001001be6da4$1875f3c0$8d9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 25 Banding, docking, de-horning & etheric etc. Friends, I dare changing the Subject title because it has gone far beyond what it has started out with. Hope you do n't mind. Michael Roboz wrote: > Dear John, Ferdy &bdnow, > > My father, Steven, worked in South America and West Africa in the 1950's. > As an mining engineer on exploration on foot, he worked with several native > groups. He found that most had never seen a toothbrush in their life but > had perfect teeth while eating their traditional diets. My father came to > the same conclusion, unscientifically. > I have also read years ago how not only the teeth are affected by > "processed" diet, but, there are other general health affects as well. One > of the more well-known one is diabetes. Very high in the Canadian native > populations. Directly linked to the white-man's diet. > Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: John P. Thomas and Kathleen Barrett > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Saturday, March 13, 1999 12:54 PM > Subject: Re: banding, docking, and de-horning & etheric forces > > >Dear Rex, Ferdinand, and others, > > > >One of the most powerful books I have found which connects nutrition with > >dental health and/or dental degeneration is "NUTRITION AND PHYSICAL > >DEGENERATION" by Weston A. Price DDS, 512 pages. > > > > In the early 1930s Dr. Price and his wife traveled to every corner of the > >world to study the diets and health of 14 isolated native tribes in Africa, > >South America, Australia, Polynesia, as well as North American Indians and > >Eskimos. He compared the health of groups who only ate their historical > >native diet with people of the same tribe who ate diets of commerce -- > >white flour, white sugar, and processed foods. From the data, including > >hundreds of photographs, the Prices produced one of the most significant > >books on nutrition ever published. Its thesis, that the naturally chosen > >"primitive" diet promoted health and that the modern "civilized" diet, led > >to rapid degeneration of overall health and physical structure, was > >revolutionary for its time and far from generally accepted. The wealth of > >evidence and fascinating detail Dr. Price provides is as informative and > >valuable today as it was half a century ago. His investigations showed > >that it takes only one generation of eating a "Westernized" diet to produce > >severe dental caries, malformed jawbones, and misaligned teeth. Dr. Price > >practiced dentistry in Cleveland, Ohio. He died in 1948. The > >Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation of San Diego was established to > >disseminate his nutritional discoveries. > > > >> > >>You see, Rex, the formative forces in our children (and animals) are > >starting to lose their > >>connection to the creative centre (if one can simplify it that way). It is > >like an artist gone > >>bonkers on a canvas without direction any longer. And so, the formative > >forces are 'painting' all > >>over the place creating deformations in the most sensitive areas (and > >that, funny enough are the > >>teeth and the skull). Here > > > >Impaired connection with the formative forces show up in the teeth because > >each tooth is energetically linked to all systems of the body via the > >meridian pathways. Dr. Price's research showed that people who ate food > >raised and prepared according to their native dietary traditions, almost > >never had tooth decay or misaligned teeth. Even more interesting, was the > >practice in these cultures of modifying the diet prior to conceiving > >children. The diet was enhanced for both men and women to help the couple > >have the forces that were needed to produce healthy children. > > > >thanks, John > > > > > >St. George Farm > >Freedom, Maine, USA > > > > -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 13:14:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14352 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:14:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13142; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:03:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12897 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:01:33 -0500 (EST) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hAKEa16736 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:03:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1614df54.36ebf9f3@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:03:31 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: ADMIN: Routing Test Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 26 yyy From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 13:23:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14666 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:23:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14016; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:13:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13788 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:10:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0108.direct.ca ([204.244.83.8] helo=direct.ca) by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10MFOD-0004j7-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:13:30 -0800 Message-ID: <36EBFBF3.E746E04A@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:12:03 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: spraying by air, a licence & the forests in need References: <009401be6db7$3fa3e160$4b431ccb@bio> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 27 Well, well! This gives me new ideas. My son is a pilot. So, there we may fly to get 501 (and perhaps 500) onto the forests. God, there is always something new out there. However, we would have to do it with a Cessna 180 from the nearby airport. Let me add this: spraying ANYTHING is strictly controlled here in Canada and you need a licence. So, before any of you take off with gallons of 500 (or 501) - my son says - get the permit. You may not only lose your pilot's licence but end in jail. And, transporting 'water' is a tricky business in any flying machine. Once the containers are half empty, you'll find them shifting. My pilot licence has expired so, my son will have to do it. Nevertheless, large areas, (likely much larger than anyting) are the forests in need of BD. Personally, I will return to the small acreage and look up when the droplets come down and meditate. My heart will pounce when I see my son swooping down with the good news (500 and/or 501). Regards Ferdinand Cheryl Kemp wrote: > Dear David, > Your parachute idea sounds interesting. Spraying 500 on by air is done > often in Australia and NZ on large areas. It is quite a set up getting the > water heated and 500 stirred in a large enough quantity for the plane to > fill up, but saves a lot of time and energy when covering 100s of hectares. > There is one valley in NZ where about three famers join together to share > the stirring, (by flowform) and one has the whole set up next to the > airstrip, and they share the cost of the plane and get all their properties > sprayed together. Their land is from mountain peaks to river flats, so > would be very difficult to cover by tractor. They also make their own fish > emulsion and spray that on as well. > Hamish Mackay, who is a BD member in Australia hmackay@ozemail.com.au > used to go around with the equipment to stir and would arrange flying on, so > if you wanted further information he could help you. > I like the idea of parachutes for 501, as one of the problems we have for > say grain crops is if they are not sown in rows leaving tractor tracks, then > it is hard to get the 501 out without damage to the crop. I will have to > get more experiments done with the towers to see if that can help here too. > We also need to look at ways to get sprays on when it is too wet to take the > tractors out as has been happening here lately. > David, how to you control the direction of the parachute? Is it like those > remote controlled boats and planes? Sounds like a great idea for Australia, > can you send me more info. Thanks, bio@midcoast.com.au > > Ferdinand thought that the droplets would be too fine or high to work, but > all I know is that putting 500 on by air works, and I think they use quite a > heavy spray to get the droplets to earth. > Great idea, > Cheryl Kemp > Education & Advisory Coordinator > Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. > of Australia Inc. > P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) > 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) > Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 > > ---Original Message----- > From: Intergalactic Garage > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999 12:58 am > Subject: Re: spraying by air > > >It probably is a shortcoming of my own that there is no 'introductory > >statement' required for joining the BD Now! community. (Of course, a great > >many people prefer that!) In a case like David Griffith's, this shortcoming > >becomes glaring. > > > >For those of you who do not know, David is the founder/owner/manager of 7 > >Stars Farm in Kimberton (OK, you knew that much) David and his family make > >the absolute best yogurt (Seven Stars) that you can buy in a health food > >store. (The thick cream on the top of the original version is a dream to we > >Sally Fallon fans!! :-) 7 Stars also makes several wonderful varieties of > >cheeses, but these, as far as I know, are not distrubted commercially. > > > >David knows what he is doing with BD, the proof is in his 'pudding.' > > > >All this makes the question below all the more interesting! > > > >David, I have to ask: how much acreage do you prep yearly and how often do > >you spray a farm that is as well established as yours? > > > >-Allan Balliett > >moderator > >BD Now! > >igg@igg.com > > > > > > > >>I am looking into spraying preps by powered parachutes. These are slow > moving > >>(26 mph), relatively safe, high payload (800 -1000 lbs), and not too > >>expensive. The idea would be to use a boomless jet and an electric > diaphram > >>pump to deliver about 2 to 3 gal./acre from about 50 -60 ft above the > ground > >>(out of the way of lines and trees). Spaying times would be early morning > >>(501) and early evenings (500). Any comments or suggestions? David > Griffiths > >>Seven Stars Farm, Kimberton PA > > > > > > > > > >=========================================================================== > > > >BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, > >dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food > >that promotes human development. > > > >To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to > > > >listproc@envirolink.org > > > >In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): > > > >subscribe bdnow > > > >If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com > > > > >a message to listproc@envirolink.org > > > -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 13:26:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14758 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:26:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14276; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:15:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14090 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:13:30 -0500 (EST) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hCANa11723 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:15:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:15:18 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: OFF: re signs and constellations Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 28 (NOTE: this transmission may have been incomplete, so we are sending it again.) Dear Friends, After a lecture in Helsinki, April 11, 1912, to the astonishment of the participants, Rudolf Steiner distributed a booklet entitled "In the Year 1879 Following the Birth of the Ego." One part of this booklet is well known to us as the weekly Calendar of the Soul. The other aspects of the 1912 calendar are virtually unknown to the English speaking world. What follows is drawn from the German, from various writings. In addition to the Soul Calendar the booklet consisted of a daily calendar with the year beginning at Easter, and reckoning time not from "AD 1" but 33 years later, the date of the crucifixion and resurrection. Steiner explained that our time reckoning should begin at that moment in the earth evolution, Easter 33, "when the ego was first born." This was to be a calendar, not for any particular sect or nation, but for all mankind. Other features of the calendar included: 1. A listing of births and deaths of significant historical personalities 2. The SUN's path traveling through the CONSTELLATIONS with accompanying totally new illustrations 3. The MOON's path, but this time in relation to the SIGNS, also with small illustrations, different to those of the sun constellations. Rudolf Steiner acknowledges both signs and constellations in his frequent mentions of the stars. To state, as many people today do, that the signs no longer have any validity seems to us not to be correct. Both have validity, but in different ways. Guenther Wachsmuth (a contemporary of Steiner and member of the original Board of the Goetheanum) has indicated that for the human being the signs have more to do with the physical/etheric and the constellations more with astral/ego., also that the signs have more to do with the earthly incarnation and the constellations with pre-birth and after-death. Happy New Year 1966! Finbarr & Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 13:42:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15188 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:42:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16054; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:30:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15685 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:27:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0108.direct.ca ([204.244.83.8] helo=direct.ca) by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10MFeg-0005RN-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:30:30 -0800 Message-ID: <36EBFFF0.E7FCADD5@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:29:04 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: etheric forces & THE HEALTH OF TEETH References: <1215265F5B24@agecon.uga.edu> <36E930F5.70718922@direct.ca> <36E948EE.8D4DE3F9@erols.com> <3.0.5.32.19990313151549.007b4300@midcoast.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 29 You know what is funny? Our children grew up with whatever natural food we could get. We baked our bread ourselves, kept to a close vegetarian (or if and when meat, the best) diet. Best milk. Brushing teeth. Eating morning and evening Weleda Calcium. Vegetables etc. etc. you name it. Steiner education. Rhythmical life. Yet, the teeth still took a beating (i.e. the deformation of the skull). So, personally, I am of the opinion, there is more than meets the eye. I really believe that if and when Westernized food is being introduced it is not the food but the thinking behind it. I met a nurse in New York some years ago who ate the most dreadful food you could think of and who had the shyniest teeth I had ever seen. What was the answer I asked her? Oh, cleaning my teeth regularly and being happy, thankful and joyful. I think her answer helped me a lot. Regards Ferdinand "John P. Thomas and Kathleen Barrett" wrote: > Dear Rex, Ferdinand, and others, > > One of the most powerful books I have found which connects nutrition with > dental health and/or dental degeneration is "NUTRITION AND PHYSICAL > DEGENERATION" by Weston A. Price DDS, 512 pages. > > In the early 1930s Dr. Price and his wife traveled to every corner of the > world to study the diets and health of 14 isolated native tribes in Africa, > South America, Australia, Polynesia, as well as North American Indians and > Eskimos. He compared the health of groups who only ate their historical > native diet with people of the same tribe who ate diets of commerce -- > white flour, white sugar, and processed foods. From the data, including > hundreds of photographs, the Prices produced one of the most significant > books on nutrition ever published. Its thesis, that the naturally chosen > "primitive" diet promoted health and that the modern "civilized" diet, led > to rapid degeneration of overall health and physical structure, was > revolutionary for its time and far from generally accepted. The wealth of > evidence and fascinating detail Dr. Price provides is as informative and > valuable today as it was half a century ago. His investigations showed > that it takes only one generation of eating a "Westernized" diet to produce > severe dental caries, malformed jawbones, and misaligned teeth. Dr. Price > practiced dentistry in Cleveland, Ohio. He died in 1948. The > Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation of San Diego was established to > disseminate his nutritional discoveries. > > > > >You see, Rex, the formative forces in our children (and animals) are > starting to lose their > >connection to the creative centre (if one can simplify it that way). It is > like an artist gone > >bonkers on a canvas without direction any longer. And so, the formative > forces are 'painting' all > >over the place creating deformations in the most sensitive areas (and > that, funny enough are the > >teeth and the skull). Here > > Impaired connection with the formative forces show up in the teeth because > each tooth is energetically linked to all systems of the body via the > meridian pathways. Dr. Price's research showed that people who ate food > raised and prepared according to their native dietary traditions, almost > never had tooth decay or misaligned teeth. Even more interesting, was the > practice in these cultures of modifying the diet prior to conceiving > children. The diet was enhanced for both men and women to help the couple > have the forces that were needed to produce healthy children. > > thanks, John > > St. George Farm > Freedom, Maine, USA -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 14:35:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16670 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:35:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20521; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:24:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20315 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:22:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-87.s24.as1.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.87]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id OAA24672 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:25:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36EC0C8A.7B527FDB@erols.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:22:51 -0500 From: Rex Harrill Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: etheric forces & THE HEALTH OF TEETH References: <1215265F5B24@agecon.uga.edu> <36E930F5.70718922@direct.ca> <36E948EE.8D4DE3F9@erols.com> <3.0.5.32.19990313151549.007b4300@midcoast.com> <36EBFFF0.E7FCADD5@direct.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 30 Ferdinand Vondruska wrote: > So, personally, I am of the opinion, there is more than meets the eye. This, sir, is *always* the case. > I really believe that if and when Westernized food is being introduced it is not the food but > the thinking behind it. Maybe so, but those who read Price's classic draw a simpler conclusion. The most compelling of the hundreds of full-mouth photos in his book are of brothers, sisters, even twins, one of who got traditional food and one of who got manufactured food. I say 'compelling' with full emphasis: so much so that I bought a case of the books for family, friends, and for resale. It's a powerful, almost overwhelming, indictment of junky food. The dental devastation Price lays at the feet of Westernized (think manufactured) food is incredible. > > I met a nurse in New York some years ago who ate the most dreadful food you could think of > and who had the shyniest teeth I had ever seen. What was the answer I asked her? Oh, cleaning > my teeth regularly and being happy, thankful and joyful. Good point, Ferdy---I may share it with my 96 year old uncle (if he sobers up and I can tolerate walking into the chain-smoker's section of McDonalds, where he seems to have lived for the past 35 years). Of course if a skirt goes by, he'll jump up and forget me. :) :) :) Regards, Rex Harrill From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 14:37:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16726 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:37:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20623; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:25:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20477 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:24:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.80]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990314192722.PWZ682101.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:27:22 +1300 Message-ID: <36EC0DD1.20BD@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:28:17 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Basalt rock dust Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 31 Cheryl Where can this rock dust testing be done in either Australia or NZ. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 14:38:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16787 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:38:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20775; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:27:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20491 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:24:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.80]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990314192732.PYF682101.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:27:32 +1300 Message-ID: <36EC0DDC.78F3@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:28:28 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: etheric forces and teeth Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 32 Ferdinand Interestingly I have read RS talk of teeth as a balanced interplay of Magnesium and Flouride. Have you noted the big and strong teeth of the people born in the US mid west, where the magnesium is 22% of the soil. No doubt calcuim has a role but magnesium could well be the missing key here and certainly one dentistry has not got a hold of yet. Also it emphasises the role of magnesium as a carrier of the etheric possibly into more Astral spheres than calcium can go????? just a thought. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 14:39:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16815 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:39:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20879; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:28:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20538 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:25:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.80]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990314192802.QAN682101.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:28:02 +1300 Message-ID: <36EC0DFA.6701@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:28:58 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: signs and constellations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 33 > Rudolf Steiner acknowledges both signs and constellations in his frequent > mentions of the stars. To state, as many people today do, that the signs no > longer have any validity seems to us not to be correct. Both have validity, > but in different ways. Guenther Wachsmuth (a contemporary of Steiner and > member of the original Board of the Goetheanum) has indicated that for the > human being the signs have more to do with the physical/etheric and the > constellations more with astral/ego., also that the signs have more to do with > the earthly incarnation and the constellations with pre-birth and after-death. > Thank you for this. I agree, this illustrates my point exactly. Those who deny the reality of the signs have not looked, seen and experienced. (around here at least) it is obvious these statements come from intellect (and fanaticism) not their experience. And so be it , as long as we see their statements for what they are. Incorrect. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 15:39:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA18315 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27187; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:28:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26995 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:26:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.132.152] (max7-11.stc.net [208.210.134.11]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA21846 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:29:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36DC2B91.4F09@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:28:22 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: STUDY L3:2 -organic chemistry -2 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 34 >Hugh > >Thank you for your reply on organic chemistry. > >I appreciate CHO, sugars and fats etc are all products of living >organisms. From your reply (and other thoughts), is it correct to >conclude that all living organisms make use of and need nitrogen to >exist? Naturally if it is not in the soil then it is easily extracted >from the atmosphere. Even fungi and mosses in N depleted soils could get >what they need from the air etc. So anyway is this an appropriate >conclusion. > >Cheers > >Glen A. Glen, et. al., All living organisms need nitrogen to form amino acids and proteins. I believe there are algae as well as the whole Nitrobacteracea family that can fix nitrogen from the air or from air dissolved in water. As well nitrogen compounds develop in thunderstorms and snowstorms so there tends to be an adequate nitrogen cycle if everything is working well enough. Best, Hugh Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "A menial task which must be mine, that shall I glorify and make an art of it."--Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 15:40:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA18343 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:40:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27402; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:29:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27053 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:27:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.132.152] (max7-11.stc.net [208.210.134.11]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA21908 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:29:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <36E226BB.7CC98AD4@direct.ca> <92DB4A1207AF90D78525672C006467DD.0064D9CC8525672C@webcity> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:48:38 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: agsyn.com Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 35 > >So Hugh, I'm lost here. Being well tutored in the Moore-York school of >'Biodynamics as Wholistic Resource Management,' I've never had much problem >with the idea that the mind is contained within the brain, but that concept >has been pretty foreign to this much of the conversation on this list in >the past. For example, it seems to be a tenet that the stirrer puts much of >themself into the prep, that what they are thinking, saying, humming or >singing becomes part of what is applied. > >Given this and given our recent and frequent experiences with Topolos >Vinyard, how do you account for this apparent contradiction? > >Incidentally, given an opportunity to 'bar' Greg from the BD Now!, the >community here was 'listless,' to say the least. Greg is still welcomed to >join BD Now! as far as I'm concerned. > >Sincerely, > >-Allan >igg@igg.com > >PS "Bad Manners"? Did you miss a few posts or something? Allan, No doubt I've missed some posts, since I haven't any idea what you are referring to with "recent and frequent experiences with Topolos Vinyard." I am surprised by the thought that the mind would be contained within the brain. I know my own mind frequently ranges quite outside my brain, most notably while I'm asleep or meditating, though absentmindedness is another well-known phenomenon. Are there folks on this list who actually think the brain contains the mind and that astral traveling and other types of out of body experiences do not occur? Well, given the diversity of folks on this list I suppose it is inevitable that we have a few with this viewpoint. Even so when we put our thoughts and vibrations into stirring preps it is not a big leap of faith to think the preps will carry these thoughts out into the field. I'd imagine that both one's hopes and fears are communicated. What are we discussing here? Greg Willis' extremely rude posts to Steve Moore a couple months back or what? Does Greg communicate this to the vineyards he works with? Not that I've seen. I'd say that if he doesn't maintain a harmonious relationship with his clients that he loses them. I have ego problems myself, as I'd imagine you've noticed. I can be an insufferable fool at times. As a result I try to remember in my wiser moments to forgive others their failings and give them credit where it is due. Greg has his finer points, of course. Are we discussing Greg's going off in an independent direction from the BDA and Demeter? That's a whole nuther ball of wax. The most time honored of growth processes is growth by schism. Seems to me we need a bit of that in biodynamics. I don't see what the complaint would be there. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "A menial task which must be mine, that shall I glorify and make an art of it."--Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 18:36:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA23826 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:36:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15432; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15193 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:20:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.12]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-53521U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:24:35 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:23:36 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: No till versus Double Digging Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 36 Hello Bd-Now friends, There has been much discussion about no-till (Ruth Stout?) vs. Jeavon's style double digging (French biointensive) on the organic gardening list of late. People with clay soils have been writing in asking if they should rototill or double dig and add amendments, and being told to leave it alone and add stuff on top in layers, like newpapers (sans colored inks), straw, manure, etc. And that in a few years, they would have that lovely crumbly soil. (To plant, just poke in a hole through all that stuff and drop in the seeds.) I'm wondering about you bd farmers, where you stand with this and what are some of your practices when you have new land to get ready for planting? The no till folks say that disturbing the soil wipes out the beneficent organisms. Others say, that Jeavons method, merely moves the top layer over, digging down to allow for deep root growth, then adding the top layer back on top. I understand that Jeavons studied both the french intensive method of gardening/farming and also studied with Rudolf Steiner in the 20's before bringing these methods to California, but was wondering, now that we've had so much more time for industry (ag included) to screw with the soil, what approach do you all take? Thanks for any insights into this mystery! Best Regards, Jane Sherry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 18:46:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA24074 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16891; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:34:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16539 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:32:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.23]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-53521U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:35:55 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:34:56 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: COTS: March 13, 1999 - March 19, 1999 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 37 <> Dear Kate, Quite frankly, I didn't know this calendar of the soul had more than verses to it, until Christine wrote in about the other features of the calendar. (Is that what the Stella Natura is based upon originally?) I am on a mailing list which I discovered at the elib website, which has put up many Steiner translations on the web (address available at the bottom of the calendar of the soul postings. I signed up for the weekly calendar verse which arrives in my email box with an inspiring verse for me to read each Sunday morning. (http://www.elib.com/) Best luck, Jane PS: I am a farmer wannabe; soon I hope to have a real garden, not just one in cyberspace or up in the air, so to speak! For now, I get most of my flora fixes at the lovely Shakespear garden in Central Park, NYC, not exactly a wild haven! And I still haven't managed to find any nettles in this city. Maybe I should try the Bronx. But I will pass on your haven info to my California friends! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 18:46:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA24080 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:46:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16842; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:34:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16407 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:31:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0210.direct.ca ([204.244.83.26] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10MKNz-0000jM-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:33:35 -0800 Message-ID: <36EC46FC.3DB85396@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:32:12 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ADMIN: Routing Test References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 38 What is this, Allan? No message. Ferdinand Intergalactic Garage wrote: -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 20:01:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA26072 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24391; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:49:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from dogbert.ipa.net (dogbert.ipa.net [205.218.170.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24311 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:48:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from steved.ipa.net (pool-192.faye.ipa.net [206.27.222.192]) by dogbert.ipa.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA29409 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:50:55 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36EC58F9.3C6D@ipa.net> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:48:57 -0600 From: Steve Diver Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 39 Jane Sherry wrote: > Hello Bd-Now friends, > There has been much discussion about no-till (Ruth Stout?) vs. Jeavon's > style double digging (French biointensive) on the organic gardening list of > late. People with clay soils have been writing in asking if they should > rototill or double dig and add amendments, and being told to leave it alone > and add stuff on top in layers, like newpapers (sans colored inks), straw, > manure, etc. And that in a few years, they would have that lovely crumbly > soil. (To plant, just poke in a hole through all that stuff and drop in the > seeds.) In permaculture, you'd find preference for the no-till method. In biointensive,you'd find preference for double-dig. In Fukuoka-style natural farming, you'd find preference for no-till. In Kyusei Nature Farming, you'd find preference for a mechanical spader. In market gardening, who has time to double-dig, or rely on comparatively more risky no-till. In truck farming, you'd find preference for mechanical tillage. In backyard gardening, you can do whatever you want. In biodynamics, you have a framework to interweave biological and dynamic practices to create a living dynamic force in the garden or farm so there is flexibility and adaptability to the whatever digging method works best for your particular situation, though incorporation of compost would be seen as a good soil management practice. "Nature bends and shapes the inputs of man and crafts her own" If we had the Sutras of Organic Agriculture laid out before us, the sutras that do not yet exist in print but do exist in the collective brains banks of millions of farmers worldwide, the sutras crafted from thousands of years indigenous knowledge-tribal agriculture mixed with modern ecological agriculture insights from clairovoyants like Steiner and humus farmers like Ehrenfried Pfeiffer, we could refer to a simple parable-paragraph and understand all that is necessary. Like Christopher Alexander's "A Pattern Language" or Pantajali's "Yoga Sutra's", you can spin a long story to support an individual sutra. In the examples above, it helps to understand the framework you are working with. The "scale" of production makes a huge impact on how you approach the no-till and double-dig picture. Double digging is *very* labor intensive. While you are still digging and digging and digging and digging to establish the market garden, the season is passing by and you are still digging instead of planting and weeding and harvesting and playing. The largest double-dug market garden I've seen in California is a one-acre farm owned by white guy recognized for his organic produce. However, the actual physical digging was done by a full-time Mexican laborer. Alex MacGregor in Tennesse has a 6-acre biointensive market garden, I'm think. I am very interested to visit this farm and get a good picture how the actual labor and mechanics are worked out. On the other hand, no-till veggie production is still largely dependent on at least a minimum of herbides at the commercial scale. At the home gardening scale, it is no problem. You see, the paragraphs are spinning off and I've barely touched on this subject. Thus, a sutra is all you need, but the explanation goes on and on. Steve Diver From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 20:21:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA26671 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:21:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA26310; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:10:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA26132 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.132.152] (max15-22.stc.net [208.210.138.22]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA25950 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:11:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990303202934.9611.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:42:15 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Cosmic Pipe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id UAA26134 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 40 >Dear List, > >A Cosmic Pipe when made properly and calibrated to astronomical data has >the influence to mediate desired properties of a farm organism on both >the atmosheric and soil level. This device, I feel, funtions on the >same level as what I have read concerning the "Round Towers" of Ireland >and the "Stone Circles" of Brittany. > >Hugh Lovel is correct when he speaks of "farming the atmoshere", but a >learning curve is in store for anyone choosing this path. The first >plateu(and possibly stumbling block) on the learning curve was in >learning to think of the farm as having borders. While I was able to >make some headway in thinking of it as an organizm, it was difficult >indeed to link borders with organizms; that are able to draw the >nourishment it requires from its' surrounding. > >As each organism must fight for its' own survival, it must build its' >resistance to perceived threats of pestalence, drought and flood. >In that context, even though it is not an approved by the BDA so I have >heard, I consider the cosmic pipe to be of primary importance in >broadcasting of biodynamic preparations for the purpose of healing the >farm organizm. > >However, it must be realized by anyone who would endevor to take on >such a task, that is of building and maintaining a pipe, that it takes >constant vigilence of coordinating regents with lunar & cosmic >influences. This in itself, cannot and should not be taken lightly. > > >Michael. > Michael and List, Here's a little further information from my assembly instructions for Cosmic Pipes. There's some things to know about prayerful intent. Assembly instructions for The Cosmic Pipe In ordering your cosmic pipe kit you should have sent us a copy of your property map or an aerial photo with the boundaries of the area you want to treat marked off. We keep a copy of this map or photo on file and use it to dowse a potential location for the pipe as well as the potencies for all the reagents used in either well at that location. These reagents are included in your starter kit in the pipe's wells along with copies of the map or photo sealed in a ziploc bag to protect from moisture. Without these reagents and the map or photo showing the boundaries in the pipe's wells the pipe does very little and is analogous to a radio station that is off the air. It is advised that a new pipe owner formulate an intent (or prayer) and write it on the back of the copy of the map or photo for each well. Think of the pipe as a channel of life force or vitality between and for your soil and atmosphere. When you are low in vitality it is difficult to carry forward your intentions, but when your vitality is high you put forth your intentions very effectively. The pipe is much the same since life force responds to intentions. Thus your intent in the well will have the effect of a prayer or thought form that the life force responds to. Here is more or less a model for formulating a written intent. "If it be Thy will,. . .' (in harmony with the Creator's will) "let the powers of nature converge. . ." (all of them) "to bring in beneficial energies and to transform detrimental energies into beneficial ones within the boundaries marked, . . ." (in other words let the pipe be a channel of beneficial energy and keep toxic or harmful things, such as the caulk, glue and pvc as well as other detrimental environmental forces, out of the broadcast and transform their influences to good) "yielding a healthy environment with abundant and nutritious production for the benefit of all and detriment of none, . . ." (or whatever other specific things you wish such as a loving enviroment, harmonious working conditions, etc.) "for now and in the future for as long as is appropriate." (this sets the temporal parameters) Amen (or whatever other closing you wish). All together the above reads: "If it be Thy will let the powers of nature converge to bring in beneficial energies and to transform detrimental energies into beneficial ones within the boundaries marked, yielding a healthy environment with abundant and nutritious production for the benefit of all and detriment of none, for now and in the future for as long as is appropriate. Amen." This intent, or whatever version of it you please, should be written on the back of the map or photo and folded up inside the ziploc bag of reagents and placed in the well for both wells. Just in case there is any confusion about which reagents go in which well, the BD 501, BD 508, Honey and SF (Spring to Fall) Horn Clay (if this reagent is included for your property) go in the top well. The BD 500, BC (barrel compost), milk and FS (Fall to Spring) Horn Clay go in the bottom well. Occasionally some additional reagent may be used, such as homeopathic lime, silica or other minerals. These will be special cases and special instructions will be included. There is one thing left out of your kit for economy in shipping, because it makes the package too bulky and isn't worth the price of shipping. This is a 5 foot length of schedule 40 PVC pipe, either 2 inch or 3 inch diameter according to whether you purchased a garden model or a field model. This should be available at a reasonable price from virtually any local hardware or builders' supply. We concentrate on sending you in your kit all the things you cannot otherwise find of reliable quality and easy availability. Once you have that, a post hole diggers, some PVC cleaner and PVC glue, and competent help (such as a dowser) if you need it determine the optimum exact location, you are ready to assemble your Cosmic Pipe and put it into operation. Assembly is simply a matter of testing the wells in case of damage in shipping, connecting the internal wires (supplied in the kit) and gluing the joints of PVC pipe together in the sequence indicated. They will be marked on the inside with a letter and an arrow pointing downward from A to C to D. B will be the 5 foot length you buy at the hardware store along with your cleaner and glue. Find a flat, clean surface, such as a driveway and lay out the pieces, connect the sections with wire nuts as provided, and glue each section together. First apply cleaner to the areas to be joined, then glue, then join the pieces with a slight twist to seal the joint. With the joint that connects the top and bottom wells try to see that both wells are joined in alignment pointing the same direction. Assembly on a flat surface helps. Included in your kit is an 8 Range Multitester. This has many uses but most importantly it can measure continuity, resistance (otherwise known as ohms, the first click to the left labeled RX 1K‡), amperage, as well as both direct current voltages and alternating current voltages. As far as using it to check the operation of your Cosmic Pipe all you will need to use is the RX 1K‡ position. Your test meter should come with a AA battery already installed and be ready for use. Unwrap the leads and plut the red jack into the right hand socket, the black into the left. Touching the probe with the dial turned to the RX 1K‡ position should show 0K ohms resistance, give or take a hair. Zero your meter using the red wheel on the left hand side. Check each well by simultaneously touching the red probe to the red post and the black to the black post. This should read close to half an ohm (on the far right between 1 and 0 ohms). This shows the germanium diode in that circuit is working. Swap leads so that red touches black and black red and the dial should read approximately 100K ohms though this may vary as much as 40 or so ohms and still be within serviceable range. This shows the 100K resistor is functioning properly. From time to time after the pipe is installed you may want to check these circuits again, as it is unlikely but conceivable that lightning could hit your pipe and burn out its components. In any event you should know whether your pipe is working or not. At this point you are ready to install your Cosmic Pipe. If possible you should check for an optimum location to put the pipe. You may use your intuition or perhaps dowse for it yourself or find a dowser that you can explain how the Cosmic Pipe works to and have him dowse for the location. It should not be under power lines, especially high voltage ones. It should not be under thick trees or up against houses, walls or steep banks. It should not be planted in locations where water stands, and, of course, it cannot be placed in roads or other places where it is an obstruction. If placed in a location where cattle or other large livestock can rub against it a fence must be put around it to keep them from breaking it. Once a suitable location is found, dig a two foot deep hole with post hole diggers and place the pipe in the hole with the wells pointing east. In ordinary clay-loam soil it should be buried up to about the middle of the collar on the pipe. Perhaps in heavy clay it might be buried about an inch higher, while in very sandy soil it should go a couple inches below the collar. It is possible to fine tune the depth by (with the wells empty) getting back 35 feet or so and walking forward dowsing for the range of effectiveness of the pipe. Then with a little deeper or shallower hole the range can be marked off until the optimum depth is found. Then the soil should be packed firmly around the pipe and the reagent packages (which are labeled for each well) should be placed in their respective wells. Then dowsing should reveal the range of effective to be far, far wider--presumably covering the entire area within the boundaries of the photos in the wells. At this point the pipe is assembled and installed. Periodically one may check the wells with the ohm meter. A couple words of caution. (1) Your reagent package is a finely tuned set. Adding or subtracting reagents should be done with care. For example, if soil tests indicate lime should be added, don't just get a vial of lime and put it in the well. Tests have shown that one or another homeopathic dilution will be harmonious, certain others antipathetic. Without care and understanding you could easily have some unusual and perhaps undesirable experiences. If you got your Cosmic Pipe from us, your photo is on file here and we can make you reagents tuned to your needs for $10 apiece. So should you need lime of one kind or another, azomite, greensand, soft rock phosphate, or a weed or insect pepper, send us a sample of whatever it is. (2) By use of the Cosmic Pipe you will gradually change the conditions in your environment. At some point it will be appropriate to change the potencies of the reagents in your wells. If you think you need a new reagent package give us a call and we can check your map or photo in our files and send you a new reagent set. There is a substantial discount for complete reagent sets. By periodically testing your pipe to see if it's components continue to function and your reagents are appropriate your Cosmic Pipe should continue to work as it was designed to. Feel free to contact us at: Union Agricultural Institute 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 706 745-6056 uai@stc.net Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "A menial task which must be mine, that shall I glorify and make an art of it."--Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 20:22:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA26689 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA26366; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:10:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA26145 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:09:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.132.152] (max15-22.stc.net [208.210.138.22]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA25995 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:11:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <19990303202934.9611.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:46:06 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Cosmic Pipe Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 41 >>I wonder if this sense is where man broke with the past? Why we are >>blinded to the ethers that are constantly flowing. How did this occur? >>Was man able once to see these? Is it the ridicule and objectiveness of >>politeness that creates the dillusion of total materialism? > >A Great Question, Well Phrased, Michael! Thank You, -Allan igg@igg.com Michael, I'm sure we ARE blinded to the ethers that are constantly flowing. Most people are blinded, that is. We can regain that ability, and I believe with biofeedback training most folks could be trained to clear perception of these things once again. Hugh Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "A menial task which must be mine, that shall I glorify and make an art of it."--Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 20:36:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA27028 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:36:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA28144; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:25:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA27942 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:23:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.13]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-53521U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:27:21 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:26:21 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 42 <> Hmmm Steve, I quite liked your answer, but somehow missed your 'personal' sutra in there! Just which method do you use? Thanks, Jane From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 20:43:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA27188 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:43:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA28868; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:31:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28809 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:30:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.132.152] (max15-22.stc.net [208.210.138.22]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA28993 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:33:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:10:55 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 43 >Hello Bd-Now friends, >There has been much discussion about no-till (Ruth Stout?) vs. Jeavon's >style double digging (French biointensive) on the organic gardening list of >late. People with clay soils have been writing in asking if they should >rototill or double dig and add amendments, and being told to leave it alone >and add stuff on top in layers, like newpapers (sans colored inks), straw, >manure, etc. And that in a few years, they would have that lovely crumbly >soil. (To plant, just poke in a hole through all that stuff and drop in the >seeds.) > >I'm wondering about you bd farmers, where you stand with this and what are >some of your practices when you have new land to get ready for planting? >The no till folks say that disturbing the soil wipes out the beneficent >organisms. Others say, that Jeavons method, merely moves the top layer >over, digging down to allow for deep root growth, then adding the top layer >back on top. > >I understand that Jeavons studied both the french intensive method of >gardening/farming and also studied with Rudolf Steiner in the 20's before >bringing these methods to California, but was wondering, now that we've had >so much more time for industry (ag included) to screw with the soil, what >approach do you all take? > >Thanks for any insights into this mystery! > >Best Regards, >Jane Sherry Jane, Any more I have such loamy soil riddled with earthworms that I can get away with a lot of Ruth Stout stuff. And I can see why, from the viewpoint of labor, she would advocate it. But don't get the idea she was doing it on new land. If you're starting with the sort of gummy clay I did my first double dug beds in The Chadwick/Jeavons method is much needed. A lot of BD vegetable growers seem to be going to spading machines, because Jeavons' method is okay for third world gardeners, but with a several acre market garden it's too much. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "A menial task which must be mine, that shall I glorify and make an art of it."--Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 21:34:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA28734 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:33:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA03963; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:22:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03895 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:22:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp57.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.157]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA06999 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:22:11 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <001c01be6e8a$83679b20$9d4b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie M." To: "BD NOW LIST" Subject: Fw: agsyn.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:21:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 44 Hugh wrote: >Does Greg communicate this to the vineyards he works with? Not that I've seen. I'd say that if he doesn't maintain a harmonious relationship with his clients that he loses them. I have ego problems myself, as I'd imagine you've noticed. I can be an insufferable fool at times. As a result I try to remember in my wiser moments to forgive others their failings and give them credit where it is due. Greg has his finer points, of course. >Are we discussing Greg's going off in an independent direction from the BDA >and Demeter? That's a whole nuther ball of wax. The most time honored of >growth processes is growth by schism. Seems to me we need a bit of that in >biodynamics. I don't see what the complaint would be there. > Hi Hugh, I hesitate to question authority, but since that is YOUR motto, thought you wouldn't mind! :-) This is something that came to me from discussions some months back...that it is extremely important to have the right attitude when stirring, applying preps, working with the land. Perhaps being so novice, I've misunderstood in some way. It seems especially true, in life, that our emotional state permeates our environment & colors our experience. If the lens through which we see is colored by love, the world responds lovingly (or maybe life just returns through that lens & is transformed!). And so it is with anger & hate. You speak of "intent", and for me, intent is certainly influenced by the lens of the moment. I know there are certain tasks that I must commence with some semblance of balance. (for example, if I try to milk a cow when I'm angry, I will, without fail, get kicked) >From my personal symbology...water is emotion (whether that's right or wrong...when the basement floods, or the well pump breaks - I look at my emotions for an answer & QUICK adjustment! :-). Water, carrier of the preparations to the land, would seem to the ideal conduit for one's emotions. And as you pointed out at your recent seminar (btw, I loved this part...) that defying the laws of physics, the vibrations(?) flow from lesser concentration to higher concentration. So would not the application of preps even magnify one's emotional state? How can Greg keep from communicating this to the vineyards? I have to say I never had a big problem with Greg. In fact I did admire his thinking and his knowledge regarding a number of BD principles. But knowing that lens through which he sees things, and the resulting energy that returns to him through that lens, would be enough to keep me from ingesting Topolos wines...or any product I know has this energy incorporated into it! For me specifically, this stems from some of Greg's views on the feminine and I have to tell you that as a woman, I'd be crazy to knowingly bring that energy into my being. So, am I missing something important here? I mean, should I not try to develop a healthy mental state (love, being the emotion of choice) and approach these practices in as centered a way as possible? Otherwise, am I doing nothing good at all -- or worse, do I contaminate my environment & its product? Thanks, Julie PS..I don't think that it was Greg's questioning of the BDA & Demeter, their financial records, motives, etc. that upset people...it was his overly aggressive assault tactics. I suspect he did accomplish some re-evaluation on the part of BDA & Demeter, I don't know for sure, but in the process, he gave up all of his own power by being a hostile fanatic about it. PPS...Greg, if you're getting a copy of this, please don't bother writing me, threatening to sue, whatever...I am broke. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 22:25:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA00519 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:25:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09653; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:13:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09154 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:10:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from bio (kmidc67-85.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.85]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA13558 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:12:47 +1100 Message-ID: <009c01be6e91$9a178ae0$55431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Basalt rock dust Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:16:54 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 45 Glen, There is a guy who works for Booral Australia, Tony Zrilic, a geologist, who has one of Philip Callaghan's machines. It looks just like a Radionics box, and he puts the dust in a bag in one side and the meter shows the pm qualities. (just like amps) If you wanted to send him some dust to test, contact him on +61 2 948338 (home) Have you checked with that old guy from Rotorua, Keith ? who has spent his life doing rock dust studies. Ian Buckingham may know of him. He may have a machine now. Cheryl. -----Original Message----- From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, 15 March 1999 6:30 am Subject: Basalt rock dust >Cheryl >Where can this rock dust testing be done in either Australia or NZ. > >Glen A. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 22:25:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA00536 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:25:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09706; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:13:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09157 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:10:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from bio (kmidc67-85.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.85]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA13552 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:12:42 +1100 Message-ID: <009a01be6e91$9779ae80$55431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Off: Fw: CONSENSUS CONF ON GENE TECHNOLOGY (Australia) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:45:05 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 46 I just thought all you BD Nowers would be interested to see what we have been doing in Australia re GE Technology. We are at the stage where patents have been applied for by Monsanto to bring in 6 GE species for Soybean, Canola etc. At present the only GE crop being grown commercially is the Bt Cotton ( and this is not doing too well). Our CSIRO (Govt. Science organisation) has bought rights to do further research and trials of GE products, and this is also being queried by consumers. So this Concensus Conference was set up last week, where citizens have the right to question the experts and to come up with recommendations to the Govt. A recent Australia New Zealand Food Authority (ANZFA) decision was made to label all obvious GE food, but not eg oil from GE seeds! So we are still battling to keep our food at least labelled and at best really controlled and consumers protected. If anyone is interested in the whole 11 page report of the Conference, just contact me on bio@midcoast.com.au and I will email it on. Thanks, Cheryl Kemp Education & Advisory Coordinator Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 -----Original Message----- From: Organic Federation of Australia Inc To: ofa@netspace.net.au Date: Sunday, 14 March 1999 10:06 pm Subject: CONSENSUS CONF ON GENE TECHNOLOGY > >NEWS MEDIA RELEASE >13/3/98 > >Australia's First Consensus Conference Canberra 9th to 11th March 99. > >The final report of the citizen panel into gene technology was a "cry" for >democracy calling on the Australian Government to provide a process of >decision making that is balanced and transparent. They expressed grave >concerns about the ability of GMAC and ANZFA to make unbiased decisions. >This report has the full support of the Organic Federation of Australia. > >The citizen panel went on to recommend that full labeling of genetically >engineered food be implemented including items regarded as being >"substantially equivalent". > >In addition it was recommended that no new genetically modified crops be >approved until a new Gene Technology Office is established with equal and >balanced representation of industry, government, consumer and environment >groups and citizens such as those involved in this consensus conference. > >"Such an office with terms of reference and representation agreed upon by >all parties, is the only way to ensure that the best, most responsible >decisions will be made," Organic Federation of Australia Chair Mr Scott >Kinnear said today. > >"The risks associated with releasing genes into the environment that cross >species boundaries, with little known consequences, must be assessed >rigorously and impartially and that is what the citizens panel has called for." > >"The organic industry, estimated to be worth one billion dollars per year to >Australia within ten years time, is extremely concerned about the impact on >the environment including pollen drift contamination of organic crops from >genetically engineered crops. Once these genes are released they cannot be >recalled." > >"In addition we are particularly pleased with the recommendation to >investigate fully, alternatives to gene technology such as organic >production systems and their further recommendation that much more research >and development is required in these areas." > >"The decisions reached by the citizen panel are fundamental reflecting the >real issues of marginalisation of consumer interests and lack of unbiased >process and decision making. The consensus conference highlighted the >diverse interests present and the ability of our citizens to weigh up and >address the important issues. We call on the Australian Government to head >the voice of the people in fully implementing these recommendations >immediately," Mr Kinnear concluded. >Scott Kinnear > >Chairperson >Organic Federation of Australia >C/- 452 Lygon St >East Brunswick >Victoria 3057 >Australia > >Ph 61 3 9386 6600 >Fax 61 3 9384 1322 > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 22:28:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA00641 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:28:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10122; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:16:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09725 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.132.152] (max13-42.stc.net [208.210.137.42]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA14105 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:15:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36EC58F9.3C6D@ipa.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:54:33 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 47 Jane Sherry wrote: > Hello Bd-Now friends, > There has been much discussion about no-till (Ruth Stout?) vs. Jeavon's > style double digging (French biointensive) on the organic gardening list of > late. People with clay soils have been writing in asking if they should > rototill or double dig and add amendments, and being told to leave it alone > and add stuff on top in layers, like newpapers (sans colored inks), straw, > manure, etc. And that in a few years, they would have that lovely crumbly > soil. (To plant, just poke in a hole through all that stuff and drop in the > seeds.) In permaculture, you'd find preference for the no-till method. In biointensive,you'd find preference for double-dig. In Fukuoka-style natural farming, you'd find preference for no-till. In Kyusei Nature Farming, you'd find preference for a mechanical spader. In market gardening, who has time to double-dig, or rely on comparatively more risky no-till. In truck farming, you'd find preference for mechanical tillage. In backyard gardening, you can do whatever you want. In biodynamics, you have a framework to interweave biological and dynamic practices to create a living dynamic force in the garden or farm so there is flexibility and adaptability to the whatever digging method works best for your particular situation, though incorporation of compost would be seen as a good soil management practice. "Nature bends and shapes the inputs of man and crafts her own" Jane, Steve, et. al., I did a garden in Atlanta that started off as a parking lot and I did well to single dig it. With BD compost and a cosmic pipe applying preps I dug it this past February with a pitchfork in almost nothing flat. Rich, crumbly soil. Still plenty of room for improvement, but a miracle of crumblyness and nice structure nonetheless. So in 3 years it's ready for the Ruth Stout treatment. But it was hopeless before that. It's no market garden technique, though. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "A menial task which must be mine, that shall I glorify and make an art of it."--Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 22:42:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA01040 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12425; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:31:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12168 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:30:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0204.direct.ca ([204.244.83.20] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10MO7K-0002E0-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:32:38 -0800 Message-ID: <36EC7F03.D241FA31@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:31:16 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: etheric forces & THE HEALTH OF TEETH References: <1215265F5B24@agecon.uga.edu> <36E930F5.70718922@direct.ca> <36E948EE.8D4DE3F9@erols.com> <3.0.5.32.19990313151549.007b4300@midcoast.com> <36EBFFF0.E7FCADD5@direct.ca> <36EC0C8A.7B527FDB@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 48 Dear Rex, I know, things are never as simple as one may want to believe. YOu are right. There is so much more behind a rotten set of teeth. However, if the spirit fails, the teeth (most of the time) fail, too. The WEsternized food was introduced in Africa and other places in a most cunning way and rolled over a continent ill prepared for it. Again, I agree, white flour, white sugar, etc. etc. makes the mouth too acid. My neighbour who is a ND told me that we have four sets of digestive systems in our body: mouth (alcaline), stomach (acid), small intestine (alcaline) and colon (acid). So, if you screw up the mouth and make it acide, the whole chain may fail. And denaturalized food certainly does so. Hope this may set my story into a bit of a better light. And, let your uncle run after those little skirt - who know for how long. Regards Ferdinand Rex Harrill wrote: > Ferdinand Vondruska wrote: > > > So, personally, I am of the opinion, there is more than meets the eye. > > This, sir, is *always* the case. > > > I really believe that if and when Westernized food is being introduced it is not the food but > > the thinking behind it. > > Maybe so, but those who read Price's classic draw a simpler conclusion. The most compelling of > the hundreds of full-mouth photos in his book are of brothers, sisters, even twins, one of who > got traditional food and one of who got manufactured food. I say 'compelling' with full > emphasis: so much so that I bought a case of the books for family, friends, and for resale. > It's a powerful, almost overwhelming, indictment of junky food. The dental devastation Price > lays at the feet of Westernized (think manufactured) food is incredible. > > > > > I met a nurse in New York some years ago who ate the most dreadful food you could think of > > and who had the shyniest teeth I had ever seen. What was the answer I asked her? Oh, cleaning > > my teeth regularly and being happy, thankful and joyful. > > Good point, Ferdy---I may share it with my 96 year old uncle (if he sobers up and I can > tolerate walking into the chain-smoker's section of McDonalds, where he seems to have lived for > the past 35 years). Of course if a skirt goes by, he'll jump up and forget me. :) :) :) > > Regards, > Rex Harrill -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 22:54:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA01369 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:54:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14539; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:43:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from swiss.direct.ca (swiss.direct.ca [199.60.229.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13994 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0204.direct.ca ([204.244.83.20] helo=direct.ca) by swiss.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10MOHI-000658-00; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:42:57 -0800 Message-ID: <36EC816E.159B91E2@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:41:34 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BD Discussion Group Bio-Dynamics CC: "Hirschnitz, Michaela" Subject: The sun as a Being calling forth the earth's warmth Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 49 Ferdy, Ever notice how when you cover up a patch in winter it stays green underneath, but do that in summer and it's dead in a weeK? That's holding the sun into the earth. I can't say for sure, but the earth does seem to give off heat and light when the sun strikes it. It does come from the surface upwards. Hope these observations help. Hugh Many thans, my friend. The snow drops, daffodils and other early spring flowers confirm that the earth is sending out its best (a transformed light) to greet the fresh sunlight. Transformed sunlight streaming from below and meeting the new light coming in from the sun. Many thanks,Hugh - from Ferdinand >-- -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 23:12:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA01861 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:12:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17421; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:01:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17330 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0204.direct.ca ([204.244.83.20] helo=direct.ca) by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10MObP-0004ed-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:03:44 -0800 Message-ID: <36EC864F.D811C26A@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:02:23 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: etheric forces and teeth References: <36EC0DDC.78F3@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 50 Excellent, and many thanks to you, Glen. It is indeed interesting what the etheric is able and willing (permit me this statement) to work with. My thinking has to change SOOO much that I am (at times) falling totally out of bed with Science. You see, when STeiner says in one of his lectures (I think in the Agri Course) that we do not eat food in order to feed ourselves with all kinds of stuff (with the exception of sugar), but that we eat in order to 'attract' the forces that will work with our body....., well, then you see how much we have to change in our approach to a new understanding of our diets and dieting. So, Calcium is not 'eaten' in order to grow better teeth. Never. We ought to take in homeopatized Calcium in order to teach the (our) body to deal with Calcium properly. Same may have to be done with other minerals etc. and Magnesium. Incidentally, in a lecture Steiner says that the teeth are taking in Fluoride in order to better our thinking. Man, what a thing. So, Fluoride can harden your thinking (and brain). Regards Ferdinand Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > Ferdinand > > Interestingly I have read RS talk of teeth as a balanced interplay of > Magnesium and Flouride. Have you noted the big and strong teeth of the > people born in the US mid west, where the magnesium is 22% of the soil. > No doubt calcuim has a role but magnesium could well be the missing key > here and certainly one dentistry has not got a hold of yet. Also it > emphasises the role of magnesium as a carrier of the etheric possibly > into more Astral spheres than calcium can go????? > > just a thought. > > Glen A. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 23:28:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA02636 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:28:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA19776; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from swiss.direct.ca (swiss.direct.ca [199.60.229.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19525 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:15:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0204.direct.ca ([204.244.83.20] helo=direct.ca) by swiss.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10MOpF-0000Ez-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:18:02 -0800 Message-ID: <36EC89A9.CFF45A80@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:16:41 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Newcomer References: <36E9E2EC.D34BEE4E@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 51 christopher jones wrote: > I am new to bio-dynamics. I live in in Southern California and have a > lot of shale with little organic matter. Any suggestions on how to > begin a more bio-dynamic situation. Dear Christopher: To begin with, get as much organic matter as you can. Leaves, grass, compost, kitchen waste, wood chips from leaf trees (never needle) - you may have to import stuff. Buy BD Compost Preps and get the compost going. Perhaps you can keep rabbits or get a bit of cow manure from somewhere. Make sure you get 'a set' of worms, too. Spray 500 soonest. Check your soil pH. Get a rain barrel. Cover the soil with straw so that soil life can develop underneath. Well, why am I saying this all? YOu may be much further. Sorry for being so obtrusive. All the best Ferdinand > > > -- > > Christopher Jones > feast@pacbell.net -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 23:31:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA02706 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:31:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA20267; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:19:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20190 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:19:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.132.152] (max5-4.stc.net [208.210.133.4]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA22406 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:21:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001c01be6e8a$83679b20$9d4b2e9c@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:29:11 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Fw: agsyn.com Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 52 >I hesitate to question authority, but since that is YOUR motto, thought you >wouldn't mind! :-) > >This is something that came to me from discussions some months back...that >it is extremely important to have the right attitude when stirring, applying >preps, working with the land. Perhaps being so novice, I've misunderstood in >some way. It seems especially true, in life, that our emotional state >permeates our environment & colors our experience. If the lens through which >we see is colored by love, the world responds lovingly (or maybe life just >returns through that lens & is transformed!). And so it is with anger & >hate. You speak of "intent", and for me, intent is certainly influenced by >the lens of the moment. I know there are certain tasks that I must commence >with some semblance of balance. (for example, if I try to milk a cow when >I'm angry, I will, without fail, get kicked) I'm with you. When I'm feeling mean I get kicked too. I have sometimes felt mean though, and thus I've been kicked a few times. Been kicked a few times when I was blissfully unsuspecting and maybe the cow was the one feeling mean too. So I've found it pays to be cool but alert. > >>From my personal symbology...water is emotion (whether that's right or >wrong...when the basement floods, or the well pump breaks - I look at my >emotions for an answer & QUICK adjustment! :-). Water, carrier of the >preparations to the land, would seem to the ideal conduit for one's >emotions. And as you pointed out at your recent seminar (btw, I loved this >part...) that defying the laws of physics, the vibrations(?) flow from >lesser concentration to higher concentration. So would not the application >of preps even magnify one's emotional >state? How can Greg keep from communicating this to the vineyards? I don't know Greg all that well, but I'm surprised he hasn't threatened to sue me yet. I feel a bit left out. Nonetheless, I've been in several vinyards with him and never seen him be angry even a moment in any. So how does he keep from communicating his anger (and I believe fear) stirring preps in a vinyard? Same way I keep it out of my milking parlor. It's a sacred activity and not something to come at with a chip on the shoulder. And I believe you might think again if you knew Michael Topolos's attitude toward BD and wine making, he's a very genial guy with a good grasp of BD and a reverent wine maker as well as being a fine restauranteur. I've watched him care for his horses and I've seen the very special relationship he has with his son. I'm sure he has some character flaws in there somewhere, but I haven't seen them. > >I have to say I never had a big problem with Greg. In fact I did admire his >thinking and his knowledge regarding a number of BD principles. But knowing >that lens through which he sees things, and the resulting energy that >returns to him through that lens, would be enough to keep me from ingesting >Topolos wines...or any product I know has this energy incorporated into it! >For me specifically, this stems from some of Greg's views on the feminine >and I have to tell you that as a woman, I'd be crazy to knowingly bring that >energy into my being. I don't think you're missing much. Greg surely doesn't know how to relate to the feminine gender, which might explain him not knowing any better than to marry a lesbian and not getting particularly enlightened about women as a result either. I can't say that affects my appreciation of his talents as a wine grape consultant though. Grapes are something he's remarkably intuitive--I would say clairvoyant--about. > >So, am I missing something important here? I mean, should I not try to >develop a healthy mental state (love, being the emotion of choice) and >approach these practices in as centered a way as possible? Otherwise, am I >doing nothing good at all -- or worse, do I contaminate my environment & its >product? > >Thanks, > >Julie > >PS..I don't think that it was Greg's questioning of the BDA & Demeter, their >financial records, motives, etc. that upset people...it was his overly >aggressive assault tactics. I suspect he did accomplish some re-evaluation >on the part of BDA & Demeter, I don't know for sure, but in the process, he >gave up all of his own power by being a hostile fanatic about it. I think you're quite right actually. > >PPS...Greg, if you're getting a copy of this, please don't bother writing >me, threatening to sue, whatever...I am broke. Julie, if Greg gets a copy of this maybe I will get a threat of a lawsuit from him too. Or maybe not. My attitude towards lawsuits is go ahead and sue me. At least I have the right to defend myself so as not to spend a lot of money on such a thing. Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "A menial task which must be mine, that shall I glorify and make an art of it."--Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 14 23:39:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA01861 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:12:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17421; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:01:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17330 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0204.direct.ca ([204.244.83.20] helo=direct.ca) by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10MObP-0004ed-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:03:44 -0800 Message-ID: <36EC864F.D811C26A@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:02:23 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: etheric forces and teeth References: <36EC0DDC.78F3@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 53 Excellent, and many thanks to you, Glen. It is indeed interesting what the etheric is able and willing (permit me this statement) to work with. My thinking has to change SOOO much that I am (at times) falling totally out of bed with Science. You see, when STeiner says in one of his lectures (I think in the Agri Course) that we do not eat food in order to feed ourselves with all kinds of stuff (with the exception of sugar), but that we eat in order to 'attract' the forces that will work with our body....., well, then you see how much we have to change in our approach to a new understanding of our diets and dieting. So, Calcium is not 'eaten' in order to grow better teeth. Never. We ought to take in homeopatized Calcium in order to teach the (our) body to deal with Calcium properly. Same may have to be done with other minerals etc. and Magnesium. Incidentally, in a lecture Steiner says that the teeth are taking in Fluoride in order to better our thinking. Man, what a thing. So, Fluoride can harden your thinking (and brain). Regards Ferdinand Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > Ferdinand > > Interestingly I have read RS talk of teeth as a balanced interplay of > Magnesium and Flouride. Have you noted the big and strong teeth of the > people born in the US mid west, where the magnesium is 22% of the soil. > No doubt calcuim has a role but magnesium could well be the missing key > here and certainly one dentistry has not got a hold of yet. Also it > emphasises the role of magnesium as a carrier of the etheric possibly > into more Astral spheres than calcium can go????? > > just a thought. > > Glen A. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 00:20:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA04171 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:20:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA28498; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from dogbert.ipa.net (dogbert.ipa.net [205.218.170.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA28053 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:06:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from steved.ipa.net (pool-131.faye.ipa.net [206.27.222.131]) by dogbert.ipa.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA28824 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:08:50 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36EC956F.4BDD@ipa.net> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:06:55 -0600 From: Steve Diver Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 54 Jane Sherry/wcdev/US wrote: > Hmmm Steve, > I quite liked your answer, but somehow missed your 'personal' sutra in > there! Just which method do you use? > > Thanks, > Jane Here is an interesting planting method which I don't think many list readers have seen, but could come in handy if super low-maintenance production is something you desire. The last three years, I've maintained a roadside flower bed on a paved county road about 20 minutes outside of town. This is a demonstration flower bed that contains native prairie plants, wildflowers, herbaceous perennials, perennial herbs, and unusual annuals. This is a multi-purpose flower bed that demonstrates a low-maintenance growing method, phenology or sequence of bloom, seed factory, insectary-butterfly garden, community supported agriculture, and community beautification. It is a CSA of the community supported type, rather than a subscription marketing venture. The farmer who owns the land is a friend. He and his wife operate an apple orchard and nursery. They are one of many small farms in the Ozarks, trying to keep rural communities intact, trying to show there is an ecological way to farm. A city dweller like myself and some friends who helped plant the bed contribute to the aesthetic and ecological well-being of such a farm by planting a flower-herb bed. Thus, it is a community supported agriculture project because a community of friends are supporting this small farm family and their efforts to live on the land, and, the flower bed brings beauty and life to the farm. In fact, it has turned into a true community project because neighbors sometimes gather by the roadside flower bed for a chat on their evening strolls. It has also spawned a trend to establish other roadside flower beds in the neighborhood, though none as large as the 1,000 sq. ft bed. This is a rural area, with country folk, in a region known as Round Mountian. The roadside flower bed is 100' long and 10' wide. The integrated planting system is the Sunbelt-HydroSource Dryland Production Bed. It combines the DeWitt Sunbelt Weed Barrier as a geotextile weed control mulch, and the HydroSource hydrogel as a moiture retaining hydrogel. The pasture was brush-hogged, then roto-tilled with a BSC walking tractor (rear-tine). A biocatalyzed poultry litter-based fertilizer was broadcast, then the hydrogel was broadcast. The weed barrier was laid out and pinned down with u-pins. A hand-held propane torch was used to burn small holes in the weed barrier (the flame cauterizes or melts the weed barrier, thus preventing running of threads like cloth). A hand trowel is the only planting tool you need. Soil was scooped up, then a bit of hydrated hydrogel put into the bottom of the hole along with mycorrhizal inoculant to enhance plant establishment and encourage symbiotic root association with beneficial rhizosphere microorganisms, then the 2-inch, 4-inch, 6-pack, 4-pack, and 6-inch potted plants were tucked in. The only watering that was done was the first 2 weeks in the hot summer sun (planted June 15th, very late in the season, with temperatures in the high 90's) until the first rains came. Thereafter, the bed has been 99% rainfed. A few hand waterings were done at critical times, especially when new plants were put in. But, there is no water source at the site and all water has to be hauled by truck and then hand watered. Thus, the bed was intended to be low-maintenance and that is why the hydrogel was used. The weed barrier is the critical component, however, because there is fescue grass and Johnsongrass and all-round tough and competitive vegetative that would otherwise run over the carefully selected plants. With the Sunbelt Weed Barrier production method, you can roto-till first or you can go with no-till. Since we established the flower bed on a permanent pasture with thick sod, I chose to roto-till the fescue mix first because we were using hand trowels to scoop the soil up for potted plants. The loose soil made this much easier, especially when you have friends helping out in the hot sun you don't want them to get discouraged. However, other beds have been established no-till right onto pastures and it has worked fine elsewhere. There is a 5 acre biodynamic flower farm in Oregon that uses DeWitt Pro-5 Weed Barrier on tractor-formed permanent raised beds. The holes burnt into the weed barrier are pre-set at 6-inch, 12-inch, 18-inch depending on the species grown. At the end of the season, the weed barrier (about 6' wide) is rolled up and carefully stored in a barn. In the off-season, a winter cover crop is established. In the spring, the cover crop is ploughed down as a green manure. A compost wagon pulled behind the tractor (straddling the bed) delivers compost as a topdress to the beds followed by mechanical incorporation (tillage) and final soil finishing and bed forming. The weed barrier and drip lines are laid back out and tucked down. This is followed by transplanting cut flower plugs. Thus, the weed barrier system I have described is practical at a home scale or at a commercial scale. A poem inspired by the Round Mountain Roadside Flower Bed: The beauty of the Earth Fills my eyes With a pounding heart My spirit soars Steve Diver From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 00:59:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA05400 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:59:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA04032; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:47:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA03846 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0215.direct.ca ([204.244.83.31] helo=direct.ca) by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10MQF2-000101-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:48:44 -0800 Message-ID: <36EC9EEC.74A07E1E@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:47:24 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 55 Where do I stand? Well, it really (as Hugh said) depends. T'would be ever so nice if one would not have to dig at all. You save cost and a lot of plowing hours. Yet, some soils need to be aerated, dug, turned, plowed, chisel plowed, chair harrowed, combed you name it. And it also depends upon the crop. In our gardens we apply Barrel Compost & Compost & (if seeded in the fall) Rye and then (after cutting the 5" high rye) we dig it all under. It is very difficult not to dig in our climate where we have to cover the soil with a thick layer of leaves in the fall (to protect it against the heavy rain fall). In the years of my apprenticeship (in Switzerland) when the winters were still cold (below freezing) you'd plow in the fall and let the frost crumble the soil. It made a most exquisite, fine till. And the compost was applied in the spring together with the preparations. As the soil was clayish and heavy, no till would not really have worked. It needed to be broken up. The new weather pattern, however, makes the situation different and I do not know how clay soils will react when there is little or no frost. Do we get a slimy, smeary and heavy soil (mess) with plowing? Clay soils are the most challenging to work with (not forgiving at all) and only the master farmer can make a living on it. I, personally, prefer a sandy soil. So, clay soils - Andrew Lorand - how do we go about here without plowing? In Holland, where I observed farmers dealing with clay soil(s) they were tilling too. How about a hard pan? Just want to know a bit more about tilling and no tilling in various soils. Regards Ferdinand Jane Sherry/wcdev/US wrote: > Hello Bd-Now friends, > There has been much discussion about no-till (Ruth Stout?) vs. Jeavon's > style double digging (French biointensive) on the organic gardening list of > late. People with clay soils have been writing in asking if they should > rototill or double dig and add amendments, and being told to leave it alone > and add stuff on top in layers, like newpapers (sans colored inks), straw, > manure, etc. And that in a few years, they would have that lovely crumbly > soil. (To plant, just poke in a hole through all that stuff and drop in the > seeds.) > > I'm wondering about you bd farmers, where you stand with this and what are > some of your practices when you have new land to get ready for planting? > The no till folks say that disturbing the soil wipes out the beneficent > organisms. Others say, that Jeavons method, merely moves the top layer > over, digging down to allow for deep root growth, then adding the top layer > back on top. > > I understand that Jeavons studied both the french intensive method of > gardening/farming and also studied with Rudolf Steiner in the 20's before > bringing these methods to California, but was wondering, now that we've had > so much more time for industry (ag included) to screw with the soil, what > approach do you all take? > > Thanks for any insights into this mystery! > > Best Regards, > Jane Sherry -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 01:23:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA05992 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 01:23:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA07460; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 01:11:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA07378 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 01:11:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from bio (kmidc67-91.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.91]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA13834 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:13:34 +1100 Message-ID: <00db01be6eaa$dc4d4620$55431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Please pass onto Dr. Andrew Lorand. Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:08:01 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D3_01BE6F06.61DE5440" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 56 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01BE6F06.61DE5440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Andrew,=20 Could I please use this answer that you gave on BD Now list, for slugs = and snails in our BDFGAA News Leaf. If you would like some personal = information to go with this piece, eg. where you live and what you do, = please add this info. I really appreciated the part that Steve Diver = used of yours in the ATTRA publication re the Comparative paradigms of = Traditional/mechanical. organic and BD farming systems. So good to = finally see the spiritual aspect of BD acknowledged. It is like we are = finally able to come out of the closet and say what we really are on = about. Thankyou, Cheryl Kemp Education & Advisory Coordinator Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322=20 Question: Any suggestions for repelling slugs and snails?=20 Answer: From Dr. Andrew Lorand (BDNow list)=20 I suggest you make up some pine cone soup. Pine cone soup is made by = boiling pine cones in water. Use only a pot that you can afford to throw = away afterwards as it will be a sticky mess. Fill your pot 2/3 with = fertile (seeded) cones, then add water. Boil under low flames and stir. = Should produce a brown-black goo, that you can pour (at least a couple = of inches wide) around your garden or areas affected by snails. Do not = cover! My experience both in Switzerland and in Pennsylvania is that = this works quite well in repelling snails and slugs for a period of a = month, sometimes a little longer. I used only local species of pine in = each case. Snails will attempt to cross this line and retreat. This = recipe was given to me by a very old farmer who lived in the Jura = mountains of Switzerland near Neuchatel. Rationale: There is the = handed-down experience here of several generations, plus the obvious = attempt to create an ecological/physical barrier. An = anthroposophical/biodynamic background to this has to do with the fiery = planetary forces of Saturn (pine) being overwhelming for the snails and = slugs who live in the watery forces of the moon. I would also advocate the use of nettle (urtica dioica) and horsetail = (equisetum arvense) teas. Snails and slugs, like other so-called pests = arrive when the garden or farm has an immunological weakness or = imbalance. Like all disease causing agents, they are virtually always = available (like bacteria and fungi) but only attack when the ecosystem = is weakened. They arrive to do a job, to call forth a response from the = farm organism to strengthen itself. Thus, I prefer to strengthen the = organism on a regular basis whenever possible. Nettle is a gentle, but potent immunological support. I make both = passive (sun) teas and active (boiled) brews and spray all my seedlings = and field crops regularly. I prefer to spray a concentrated form, rather = than a diluted one even if it means less coverage. I also prefer to = spray in the week before full moon, adding growth potency to the teas = immunological effect. Nettle has of course a high concentration of = organically bound iron, which many folks attribute its effect to. On the = other hand horsetail must be boiled at least 15 minutes to release the = active ingredient (silica), which when sprayed on crops acts as an = astringent, which in itself provides a barrier effect. Additionally, we could add an anthroposophical/biodynamic perspective = which might be that the presence of snails an slugs shows that the four = basic ether forces (life, chemical, light and warmth ether) are out of = balance. These forces run or hover along (in, below, and above) the soil = in a contoured, but defined set of patterns. When the life and chemical = ethers, that have mostly to do with the ground itself, run to high above = the ground we tend to see fog, dampness and given the opportunity over = time, also fungi, snails, slugs etc. (creatures of the dark and damp). = By applying nettle we strengthen the plant and soil microbiology; by = applying the horsetail we add a crispness to the leaves, but both also = act as regulators for the etheric forces. The horsetail invites the = light ether and the nettle the warmth ether to regain their proper place = and balance visa vie the life and chemical ethers. This keeps the kinds = of forces that the snails and slugs bring in the soil, rather than above = the soil - which is where they belong most of the time. ------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01BE6F06.61DE5440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Andrew,

Could I please use this answer that you gave on BD Now list, for = slugs and=20 snails  in our BDFGAA News Leaf. If you would like some personal=20 information  to go with this piece, eg. where you live and what you = do,=20 please add this info.  I really appreciated the part that Steve = Diver used=20 of yours in the ATTRA publication re the Comparative paradigms of=20 Traditional/mechanical. organic and BD farming systems.  So good to = finally=20 see the spiritual aspect of BD acknowledged.  It is like we are = finally=20 able to come out of the closet and say what we really are on about.

Thankyou,

Cheryl Kemp
Education & Advisory Coordinator
Bio-Dynamic = Farming=20 and Gardening Assoc.
of Australia Inc.
P.O Box 54, Bellingen. = 2454.=20 (Office)
627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home)
Phone; + 02 66 = 575306=20 Fax 02 66 575322

 

 

Question: Any suggestions for repelling slugs and = snails?
Answer: = From Dr.=20 Andrew Lorand (BDNow list)
I suggest you make up some pine cone = soup. Pine=20 cone soup is made by boiling pine cones in water. Use only a pot that = you can=20 afford to throw away afterwards as it will be a sticky mess. Fill your = pot 2/3=20 with fertile (seeded) cones, then add water. Boil under low flames and = stir.=20 Should produce a brown-black goo, that you can pour (at least a couple = of inches=20 wide) around your garden or areas affected by snails. Do not cover! My=20 experience both in Switzerland and in Pennsylvania is that this works = quite well=20 in repelling snails and slugs for a period of a month, sometimes a = little=20 longer. I used only local species of pine in each case. Snails will = attempt to=20 cross this line and retreat. This recipe was given to me by a very old = farmer=20 who lived in the Jura mountains of Switzerland near Neuchatel. = Rationale: There=20 is the handed-down experience here of several generations, plus the = obvious=20 attempt to create an ecological/physical barrier. An = anthroposophical/biodynamic=20 background to this has to do with the fiery planetary forces of Saturn = (pine)=20 being overwhelming for the snails and slugs who live in the watery = forces of the=20 moon.

I would also advocate the use of nettle (urtica dioica) and = horsetail (equisetum arvense) teas. Snails and slugs, like other = so-called pests=20 arrive when the garden or farm has an immunological weakness or = imbalance. Like=20 all disease causing agents, they are virtually always available (like = bacteria=20 and fungi) but only attack when the ecosystem is weakened. They arrive = to do a=20 job, to call forth a response from the farm organism to strengthen = itself. Thus,=20 I prefer to strengthen the organism on a regular basis whenever=20 possible.

Nettle is a gentle, but potent immunological support. I = make=20 both passive (sun) teas and active (boiled) brews and spray all my = seedlings and=20 field crops regularly. I prefer to spray a concentrated form, rather = than a=20 diluted one even if it means less coverage. I also prefer to spray in = the week=20 before full moon, adding growth potency to the teas immunological = effect. Nettle=20 has of course a high concentration of organically bound iron, which many = folks=20 attribute its effect to. On the other hand horsetail must be boiled at = least 15=20 minutes to release the active ingredient (silica), which when sprayed on = crops=20 acts as an astringent, which in itself provides a barrier=20 effect.

Additionally, we could add an anthroposophical/biodynamic = perspective which might be that the presence of snails an slugs shows = that the=20 four basic ether forces (life, chemical, light and warmth ether) are out = of=20 balance. These forces run or hover along (in, below, and above) the soil = in a=20 contoured, but defined set of patterns. When the life and chemical = ethers, that=20 have mostly to do with the ground itself, run to high above the ground = we tend=20 to see fog, dampness and given the opportunity over time, also fungi, = snails,=20 slugs etc. (creatures of the dark and damp). By applying nettle we = strengthen=20 the plant and soil microbiology; by applying the horsetail we add a = crispness to=20 the leaves, but both also act as regulators for the etheric forces. The=20 horsetail invites the light ether and the nettle the warmth ether to = regain=20 their proper place and balance visa vie the life and chemical ethers. = This keeps=20 the kinds of forces that the snails and slugs bring in the soil, rather = than=20 above the soil - which is where they belong most of the=20 time.


------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01BE6F06.61DE5440-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 06:20:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA12575 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 06:20:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA10205; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 06:09:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp3.hawaii.rr.com (smtp3.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA09889 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 06:06:13 -0500 (EST) Received: apparently from phyl.hawaii.rr.com - 24.94.65.129 by smtp3.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Mon, 15 Mar 1999 01:05:27 -1000 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990315010639.0103518c@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 01:08:56 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: Re: FAQ on BD? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 57 >A very good overview of Biodynamic practice is Wolf Storl's Culture and >Horticulture: A Philosophy of Gardening. Another plus is that the book is >very inexpensive. > >The book is available from > >http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/booksale.html > >OR > >http://www.biodynamic.net/links/history.html > >Sincerely, >John P. Gallerie ----------------------------- Dear John & BDNow Friends, You are ABSOLUTELY right. Wolf's book "Culture and Horticulture" is one of the best overviews of agriculture! And at $10, or less, it is also one of the few remaining "great deals" in the market place. Some months ago here at Kahumana Farm, Hawaii several us started reading and discussing Wolf's book. To the person, everyone in our study group proclaims with astonishment and appreciation what a fantastic work it is. (John, I feel very fortunate to have studied with you and Wolf those many years ago; and thrilled to see the study go on in our little group here!) Phyl Dwyer pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com =================================================== Please note Phyl Dwyer's new email address =================================================== From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 09:13:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16895 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29930; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:02:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from anat.ncds.net (anat.ncds.net [207.250.242.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29601 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:59:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from pavilion (p01-66.ffxp.ncds.net [207.250.242.241] (may be forged)) by anat.ncds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7-sp) with SMTP id IAA14336 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:03:05 -0600 Message-ID: <002201be6efd$7fffbbc0$f1f2facf@pavilion> From: "parker" To: Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:02:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 58 I think it is quite right whoever pointed out that it will be different for different types of farmers. I worked for a heavy production oriented BD CSA farm last season and it became acheingly clear during the May madness that double-digging would leave the CSA members starving. But maybe the solution is to dig parts of your garden each year and slowly phase out the tractor. Like Hugh said after a bed has been double dug once, and turned a couple more times it becomes much easier to work with. Beds that I dug three years ago only need a quick once over with the fork before planting. This year my partner and I plan to dig a quarter acre in 4 days with two U-bars. We are also breaking ground, the field has been wild, for were not sure how long. It has five foot wild carrot (which Pfeiffer points out as a good sign) and also bergamot and burdock and wild asparagus. We did an old fashion burn yesterday, which was incrediblely exciting. We plan on leaving a few beds to come back as nature would have it. I will let the list know how this goes. But I think it is very feasible to double dig a quarter acre each season as the one originally dug will become softer and softer, especially with compost and cover crops. So if you look at your plot of land as a ten year project instead of a one year project, the quest for the double dug farm looks more reasonable. on burned ground, Parker -----Original Message----- From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 5:29 PM Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging ><on this subject. Thus, a sutra is all you need, but the explanation >goes on and on. >> > >Hmmm Steve, >I quite liked your answer, but somehow missed your 'personal' sutra in >there! Just which method do you use? > >Thanks, >Jane From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 09:27:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17356 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:27:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01530; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from anat.ncds.net (anat.ncds.net [207.250.242.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01276 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:14:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from pavilion (p01-76.ffxp.ncds.net [207.250.242.251] (may be forged)) by anat.ncds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7-sp) with SMTP id IAA14622 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:18:06 -0600 Message-ID: <002a01be6eff$99436800$f1f2facf@pavilion> From: "parker" To: Subject: flow form Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:17:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01BE6EBC.555FC7C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 59 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BE6EBC.555FC7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List- All the talk was so fascinating awhile back on the flowforms that I = bought Schwenk's Sensitive Chaos. This book has only increased my = enthusiasm for flowing forms. Yesterday I was playing with the 4 year = old son of the man who owns the land I live on. There is a spring which = runs into a hand dug pond which flows into a shallow creek that we run = the water ram off of. I showed Ian a picture of the flow form and = suggested that we go down to the creek and experiment with building a = natural run with the rocks already living there. This turned into an all = afternoon project as Ian exclaimed again and again "dis is wrere cool!, = I felt exactly the same way as we worked our way probably a quarter mile = down the creek and built four, probably 40 ft flowforms with the rocks = along the sides of the creek. I wrestled with the idea that I was = changing the natural flow of the creek, but also felt distinctly that = the dry rocks from the side of the bed were loving their new bath of = water. We spent time after each construction looking at the forms we = built, sitting in the sun, and explaining to Ian again and again why I = didn't want to connect all the flow forms together but leave large = spaces for the creek to spend its life in its natural state. He finally = said to me, "The creek is happy". As good an exclamation as could be. Parker ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BE6EBC.555FC7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
List-
All the talk was so = fascinating awhile=20 back on the flowforms that I bought Schwenk's Sensitive Chaos. This book = has=20 only increased my enthusiasm for flowing forms. Yesterday I was playing = with the=20 4 year old son of the man who owns the land I live on. There is a spring = which=20 runs into a hand dug pond which flows into a shallow creek that we run = the water=20 ram off of. I showed Ian a picture of the flow form and suggested that = we go=20 down to the creek and experiment with building a natural run with the = rocks=20 already living there. This turned into an all afternoon project as Ian = exclaimed=20 again and again "dis is wrere cool!, I felt exactly the same way as = we=20 worked our way probably a quarter mile down the creek and built four, = probably=20 40 ft flowforms with the rocks along the sides of the creek. I wrestled = with the=20 idea that I was changing the natural flow of the creek, but also felt = distinctly=20 that the dry rocks from the side of the bed were loving their new bath = of water.=20 We spent time after each construction looking at the forms we built, = sitting in=20 the sun, and explaining to Ian again and again why I didn't want to = connect all=20 the flow forms together but leave large spaces for the creek to spend = its life=20 in its natural state. He finally said to me, "The creek is = happy". As=20 good an exclamation as could be.
 
Parker
------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BE6EBC.555FC7C0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 09:34:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17550 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:34:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02087; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:23:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01836 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:20:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.134] (pm3shep1-163-39.intrepid.net [209.190.163.39]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA21758 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:23:21 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002201be6efd$7fffbbc0$f1f2facf@pavilion> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:25:27 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 60 >I think it is quite right whoever pointed out that it will be different for >different types of farmers. I worked for a heavy production oriented BD CSA >farm last season and it became acheingly clear during the May madness that >double-digging would leave the CSA members starving. Parker - was this a start-up CSA? Were these initial double-digs, or what was happening at this BD CSA? (remind me: which BD CSA is this?) But maybe the solution >is to dig parts of your garden each year and slowly phase out the tractor. Like a growing number of BD growers, Bruce Blevins is a champion of the Italian machines. (NOT the Dutch machines) His motto: when you bring the tractor into the garden your main plan has to be how to get the tractor back out of the garden. I believe he plans for three spadings in a two season period. And then it's U-bars from then on. >Like Hugh said after a bed has been double dug once, and turned a couple >more times it becomes much easier to work with. Beds that I dug three years >ago only need a quick once over with the fork before planting. This year my >partner and I plan to dig a quarter acre in 4 days with two U-bars. IMHO, If you are planning initial digs with u-bars, either you don't really need double- digging, ie your soil is very loose already, or you are going to have a couple of broken u-bars or you just plain aint going to make it. If time is of the essence, a single dig the first year, with good deep rooting cover crops over the winter (and daikon whenever possible otherwise :-), and a double dig the following spring, would seem like a good plan. The real Steve Moore, at Wilson College in Chambersburg PA, is a certified John Jeavons instructor and takes a very s-l-o-w approach to that two foot deep bed. He says that you should enjoy repeatedly discovering how much of your double digging the plants do for you....over the seasons as you dig and re-dig your bed. Your idea of 'volunteer beds' is rather exciting! Just my two-cents, Allan Balliett BIODYNAMICS Now! POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 (304) 876-2373 (815) 550-6067 FAX Forwarding << Please note the new fax number!! >> =================================================================== SUBSCRIBE to Our Hot Release Information Lists! Know the latest releases!! Get the BEST prices!! TORI AMOS LIST: igg@igg.com SUBJECT=SUBSCRIBE TORI-L You MUST include your FULL NAME and SHIPPING ADDRESS in the body of the message New Arrival/PRe-Order/ SALE Lists: igg@igg.com SUBJECT=SUBSCRIBE IGG-L ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CUSTOMER SERVICE: maura@intrepid.net Please Check Home Page for latest lists and info! http://www.igg.com =================================================================== How To Order Information: http://igg.com/howtoorder.html How To Pre-Order Information http://igg.com/HowToP.html =================================================================== INTERGALACTIC GARAGE Compact Disks and WorldWide Music Collectibles 110 West German Street POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 (304) 876-6818 / (304) 876-9414 FAX Email = igg@igg.com HOME PAGE: http://www.igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 09:39:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17950 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:39:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02703; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:29:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.157]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02409 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:26:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [151.196.126.15] (client196-126-15.bellatlantic.net [151.196.126.15]) by smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA26472 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:31:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903151431.JAA26472@smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:29:41 -0500 Subject: Re: GEO Consensus - BDNow From: "Steven McFadden" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 61 > > Dear Steven, > Your vigilance on this matter is appreciated. Does this mean that at the > new moon you will issue the consensus statement that you have thus far? > > Thanks for all your work and good energy. > Jane Sherry > That's a great idea, Jane. New moon comes Wednesday, March 17 -- Toora Loora, Loora -- at 1:49 PM EST -- AT 26 PISCES 44 --But then Moon is void of course till 7: 14 PM when it enters Aries. WILL make a note in my calendar -- and post what I've got so far Thursday morning (Hmmm- When Chiron goes Retrograde in Sag !) Pax, Steven From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 10:10:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA18882 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:10:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06437; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:59:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06035 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:57:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.4]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-53521U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:01:12 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:00:13 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Fw: agsyn.com Message-ID: <89B950C89CEBB0A98525673500523FA6.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 62 <> Oh, that's easy Hugh! You're just too darn complimentary of him for him to sue you! <> Oh, thanks for this good laugh Hugh! It's unenlightened nonsense like this that's gonna make me include you in my prayers tonight along with Greg! Regards, Jane From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 10:44:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20306 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:44:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11106; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:32:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com [207.46.181.18]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09305 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:25:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer - 153.37.33.101 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 07:27:02 -0800 Message-ID: <002701be6ef7$e1cf76c0$65212599@oemcomputer> From: "Dr. Andrew Lorand" To: Subject: Of Snails, Slugs and Remedies... Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 07:24:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE6EB4.D27675E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 63 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE6EB4.D27675E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Cheryl, Certainly use the quote!=20 Andrew =20 =20 Dear Andrew,=20 Could I please use this answer that you gave on BD Now list, for = slugs and snails in our BDFGAA News Leaf. If you would like some = personal information to go with this piece, eg. where you live and what = you do, please add this info. I really appreciated the part that Steve = Diver used of yours in the ATTRA publication re the Comparative = paradigms of Traditional/mechanical. organic and BD farming systems. So = good to finally see the spiritual aspect of BD acknowledged. It is like = we are finally able to come out of the closet and say what we really are = on about. Thankyou, Cheryl Kemp Education & Advisory Coordinator Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322=20 =20 =20 =20 Question: Any suggestions for repelling slugs and snails?=20 Answer: From Dr. Andrew Lorand (BDNow list)=20 I suggest you make up some pine cone soup. Pine cone soup is made by = boiling pine cones in water. Use only a pot that you can afford to throw = away afterwards as it will be a sticky mess. Fill your pot 2/3 with = fertile (seeded) cones, then add water. Boil under low flames and stir. = Should produce a brown-black goo, that you can pour (at least a couple = of inches wide) around your garden or areas affected by snails. Do not = cover! My experience both in Switzerland and in Pennsylvania is that = this works quite well in repelling snails and slugs for a period of a = month, sometimes a little longer. I used only local species of pine in = each case. Snails will attempt to cross this line and retreat. This = recipe was given to me by a very old farmer who lived in the Jura = mountains of Switzerland near Neuchatel. Rationale: There is the = handed-down experience here of several generations, plus the obvious = attempt to create an ecological/physical barrier. An = anthroposophical/biodynamic background to this has to do with the fiery = planetary forces of Saturn (pine) being overwhelming for the snails and = slugs who live in the watery forces of the moon. =20 I would also advocate the use of nettle (urtica dioica) and = horsetail (equisetum arvense) teas. Snails and slugs, like other = so-called pests arrive when the garden or farm has an immunological = weakness or imbalance. Like all disease causing agents, they are = virtually always available (like bacteria and fungi) but only attack = when the ecosystem is weakened. They arrive to do a job, to call forth a = response from the farm organism to strengthen itself. Thus, I prefer to = strengthen the organism on a regular basis whenever possible. =20 Nettle is a gentle, but potent immunological support. I make both = passive (sun) teas and active (boiled) brews and spray all my seedlings = and field crops regularly. I prefer to spray a concentrated form, rather = than a diluted one even if it means less coverage. I also prefer to = spray in the week before full moon, adding growth potency to the teas = immunological effect. Nettle has of course a high concentration of = organically bound iron, which many folks attribute its effect to. On the = other hand horsetail must be boiled at least 15 minutes to release the = active ingredient (silica), which when sprayed on crops acts as an = astringent, which in itself provides a barrier effect. =20 Additionally, we could add an anthroposophical/biodynamic = perspective which might be that the presence of snails an slugs shows = that the four basic ether forces (life, chemical, light and warmth = ether) are out of balance. These forces run or hover along (in, below, = and above) the soil in a contoured, but defined set of patterns. When = the life and chemical ethers, that have mostly to do with the ground = itself, run to high above the ground we tend to see fog, dampness and = given the opportunity over time, also fungi, snails, slugs etc. = (creatures of the dark and damp). By applying nettle we strengthen the = plant and soil microbiology; by applying the horsetail we add a = crispness to the leaves, but both also act as regulators for the etheric = forces. The horsetail invites the light ether and the nettle the warmth = ether to regain their proper place and balance visa vie the life and = chemical ethers. This keeps the kinds of forces that the snails and = slugs bring in the soil, rather than above the soil - which is where = they belong most of the time. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE6EB4.D27675E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear=20 Cheryl,
 
Certainly use the quote! =
 
Andrew
 

Dear Andrew, =

Could I please use this = answer that you=20 gave on BD Now list, for slugs and snails  in our BDFGAA News = Leaf. If=20 you would like some personal information  to go with this = piece, eg.=20 where you live and what you do, please add this info.  I really = appreciated the part that Steve Diver used of yours in the ATTRA = publication=20 re the Comparative paradigms of Traditional/mechanical. organic and = BD=20 farming systems.  So good to finally see the spiritual aspect = of BD=20 acknowledged.  It is like we are finally able to come out of = the closet=20 and say what we really are on about.

Thankyou,

Cheryl Kemp
Education = & Advisory=20 Coordinator
Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc.
of = Australia=20 Inc.
P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office)
627 Tyringham Rd, = Dorrigo=20 Nth. 2453 (Home)
Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322=20

 

 

Question: Any = suggestions=20 for repelling slugs and snails?
Answer: From Dr. Andrew = Lorand (BDNow=20 list)
I suggest you make up some pine cone soup. Pine cone soup = is made=20 by boiling pine cones in water. Use only a pot that you can afford = to throw=20 away afterwards as it will be a sticky mess. Fill your pot 2/3 with = fertile=20 (seeded) cones, then add water. Boil under low flames and stir. = Should=20 produce a brown-black goo, that you can pour (at least a couple of = inches=20 wide) around your garden or areas affected by snails. Do not cover! = My=20 experience both in Switzerland and in Pennsylvania is that this = works quite=20 well in repelling snails and slugs for a period of a month, = sometimes a=20 little longer. I used only local species of pine in each case. = Snails will=20 attempt to cross this line and retreat. This recipe was given to me = by a=20 very old farmer who lived in the Jura mountains of Switzerland near=20 Neuchatel. Rationale: There is the handed-down experience here of = several=20 generations, plus the obvious attempt to create an = ecological/physical=20 barrier. An anthroposophical/biodynamic background to this has to do = with=20 the fiery planetary forces of Saturn (pine) being overwhelming for = the=20 snails and slugs who live in the watery forces of the moon.

I = would=20 also advocate the use of nettle (urtica dioica) and horsetail = (equisetum=20 arvense) teas. Snails and slugs, like other so-called pests arrive = when the=20 garden or farm has an immunological weakness or imbalance. Like all = disease=20 causing agents, they are virtually always available (like bacteria = and=20 fungi) but only attack when the ecosystem is weakened. They arrive = to do a=20 job, to call forth a response from the farm organism to strengthen = itself.=20 Thus, I prefer to strengthen the organism on a regular basis = whenever=20 possible.

Nettle is a gentle, but potent immunological = support. I=20 make both passive (sun) teas and active (boiled) brews and spray all = my=20 seedlings and field crops regularly. I prefer to spray a = concentrated form,=20 rather than a diluted one even if it means less coverage. I also = prefer to=20 spray in the week before full moon, adding growth potency to the = teas=20 immunological effect. Nettle has of course a high concentration of=20 organically bound iron, which many folks attribute its effect to. On = the=20 other hand horsetail must be boiled at least 15 minutes to release = the=20 active ingredient (silica), which when sprayed on crops acts as an=20 astringent, which in itself provides a barrier = effect.

Additionally,=20 we could add an anthroposophical/biodynamic perspective which might = be that=20 the presence of snails an slugs shows that the four basic ether = forces=20 (life, chemical, light and warmth ether) are out of balance. These = forces=20 run or hover along (in, below, and above) the soil in a contoured, = but=20 defined set of patterns. When the life and chemical ethers, that = have mostly=20 to do with the ground itself, run to high above the ground we tend = to see=20 fog, dampness and given the opportunity over time, also fungi, = snails, slugs=20 etc. (creatures of the dark and damp). By applying nettle we = strengthen the=20 plant and soil microbiology; by applying the horsetail we add a = crispness to=20 the leaves, but both also act as regulators for the etheric forces. = The=20 horsetail invites the light ether and the nettle the warmth ether to = regain=20 their proper place and balance visa vie the life and chemical = ethers. This=20 keeps the kinds of forces that the snails and slugs bring in the = soil,=20 rather than above the soil - which is where they belong most of the=20 time.


------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE6EB4.D27675E0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 11:37:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22572 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:37:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18846; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:27:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18416 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:24:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.009CF039@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:27:26 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 15 Mar 99 11:27:23 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 15 Mar 99 11:26:54 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:26:54 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1287F9B92607@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 64 Just want to say that as a HUGE fan of mulching I think that it should be used at all times regarless of tilling (though that might have to be slightly amended in super wet climates...) And as for double digging, how practical is this really beyond the smallest hobby garden? I saw if forced (my word) on a largish scale on what started out as a bd development project in NW Dominican Republic and can tell you from having visited it 10 or so years after it's inception, it has yet to be adopted out in the community and the only reason it continues on the original project is that scholarshipped students do the work and grant money funds the whole thing. Farming is such hard work anyway, how many of you find time and energy to do double digging on top of that? (That's not a rhetorical question.) Moving Jane's question from theory to practice... Anita > Hello Bd-Now friends, > There has been much discussion about no-till (Ruth Stout?) vs. Jeavon's > style double digging (French biointensive) on the organic gardening list of > late. People with clay soils have been writing in asking if they should > rototill or double dig and add amendments, and being told to leave it alone > and add stuff on top in layers, like newpapers (sans colored inks), straw, > manure, etc. And that in a few years, they would have that lovely crumbly > soil. (To plant, just poke in a hole through all that stuff and drop in the > seeds.) > > I'm wondering about you bd farmers, where you stand with this and what are > some of your practices when you have new land to get ready for planting? > The no till folks say that disturbing the soil wipes out the beneficent > organisms. Others say, that Jeavons method, merely moves the top layer > over, digging down to allow for deep root growth, then adding the top layer > back on top. > > I understand that Jeavons studied both the french intensive method of > gardening/farming and also studied with Rudolf Steiner in the 20's before > bringing these methods to California, but was wondering, now that we've had > so much more time for industry (ag included) to screw with the soil, what > approach do you all take? > > Thanks for any insights into this mystery! > > Best Regards, > Jane Sherry > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 11:41:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22707 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:40:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19362; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19208 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:29:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.009CF16E@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:31:55 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 15 Mar 99 11:31:52 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 15 Mar 99 11:31:43 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:31:41 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging Priority: normal In-reply-to: <36EC58F9.3C6D@ipa.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <12880E467AF2@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 65 Just realized that when I posted my last post on this topic that it had already been well covered (pun?) beautifully and articulately by Steve and others. It ain't easy keeping up with all the posts sometimes! Anita > Jane Sherry wrote: > > Hello Bd-Now friends, > > There has been much discussion about no-till (Ruth Stout?) vs. Jeavon's > > style double digging (French biointensive) on the organic gardening list of > > late. People with clay soils have been writing in asking if they should > > rototill or double dig and add amendments, and being told to leave it alone > > and add stuff on top in layers, like newpapers (sans colored inks), straw, > > manure, etc. And that in a few years, they would have that lovely crumbly > > soil. (To plant, just poke in a hole through all that stuff and drop in the > > seeds.) > > In permaculture, you'd find preference for the no-till method. > In biointensive,you'd find preference for double-dig. > In Fukuoka-style natural farming, you'd find preference for no-till. > In Kyusei Nature Farming, you'd find preference for a mechanical spader. > In market gardening, who has time to double-dig, or rely on > comparatively more risky no-till. > In truck farming, you'd find preference for mechanical tillage. > In backyard gardening, you can do whatever you want. > In biodynamics, you have a framework to interweave biological > and dynamic practices to create a living dynamic force in the > garden or farm so there is flexibility and adaptability to > the whatever digging method works best for your particular > situation, though incorporation of compost would be seen as > a good soil management practice. > > "Nature bends and shapes the inputs of man and crafts her own" > > If we had the Sutras of Organic Agriculture laid out before us, > the sutras that do not yet exist in print but do exist in the collective > brains banks of millions of farmers worldwide, the sutras crafted > from thousands of years indigenous knowledge-tribal agriculture > mixed with modern ecological agriculture insights from clairovoyants > like Steiner and humus farmers like Ehrenfried Pfeiffer, we could refer > to a simple parable-paragraph and understand all that is necessary. > > Like Christopher Alexander's "A Pattern Language" or Pantajali's > "Yoga Sutra's", you can spin a long story to support an individual > sutra. > > In the examples above, it helps to understand the framework > you are working with. > > The "scale" of production makes a huge impact on how you approach > the no-till and double-dig picture. > > Double digging is *very* labor intensive. While you are still > digging and digging and digging and digging to establish the > market garden, the season is passing by and you are still digging > instead of planting and weeding and harvesting and playing. > > The largest double-dug market garden I've seen in California is > a one-acre farm owned by white guy recognized for his organic produce. > However, the actual physical digging was done by a full-time Mexican > laborer. > > Alex MacGregor in Tennesse has a 6-acre biointensive market garden, > I'm think. I am very interested to visit this farm and get a good > picture how the actual labor and mechanics are worked out. > > On the other hand, no-till veggie production is still largely > dependent on at least a minimum of herbides at the commercial scale. > At the home gardening scale, it is no problem. > > You see, the paragraphs are spinning off and I've barely touched > on this subject. Thus, a sutra is all you need, but the explanation > goes on and on. > > Steve Diver > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 11:59:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23549 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:59:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22578; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:48:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from onondaga.mohawk.net (root@onondaga.mohawk.net [204.60.69.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22192 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:46:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.60.69.144] (riga15.mohawk.net [204.60.69.144]) by onondaga.mohawk.net (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA27607; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:44:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:26:23 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, csa-l@prairienet.org From: Thompson Subject: farm help needed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 66 Farm help needed for 1999 season Still Point Community Farm is a small but rapidly expanding CSA located in Amenia NY, approximately 90 miles north of New York City. We recently completed our first year of operation, serving 32 shares over a 16-week season from 1 acre of vegetables. We are growing to 150 shares on 6 acres this coming year. The farm totals 80 acres, with approximately 25 tillable acres, and includes some of the best agricultural soils in our region. The farm is managed biodynamically, and is certified organic by NOFA-NY. We are looking for highly motivated individuals to work with the primary farmer in our diversified vegetable operation. Applicants should have previous farm experience and a strong interest in farming as a career. Ideally, applicants should have been through a well-structured apprenticeship program and be looking for a chance to put into practice the skills they obtained. We are looking for people who can work quickly and efficiently but also care about the quality of their experience. A high degree of responsibility will be given, and in exchange a high level of quality in work is expected. Experience with machinery and with livestock and crops other than vegetables is desirable. Tasks will include planting, cultivating, harvesting and washing, as well as interacting with community members on a weekly basis. We offer a stipend of $300 per month plus room and board. Living accomodations are in the family farmhouse, and all cooking and cleaning will be shared. We are a vegetarian household. This position is not an apprenticeship: a base level of knowledge about farming and physical work is assumed. We offer a chance to experience the complete life of a young biodynamic farm, and to participate in its growth. Long-term involvement with the community farm is possible, based on compatibility. If interested, please contact: Nathaniel Thompson RR 1 Box 136 Amenia, NY 12501 (914) 373-8010 email: farmernat@mohawk.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 15 12:05:03 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA23782 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:05:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA06069 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:59:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA07503; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:50:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from onondaga.mohawk.net (root@onondaga.mohawk.net [204.60.69.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07395 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:49:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from [204.60.69.144] (riga15.mohawk.net [204.60.69.144]) by onondaga.mohawk.net (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA27607; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:44:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:26:23 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, csa-l@prairienet.org From: Thompson Subject: farm help needed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 67 Farm help needed for 1999 season Still Point Community Farm is a small but rapidly expanding CSA located in Amenia NY, approximately 90 miles north of New York City. We recently completed our first year of operation, serving 32 shares over a 16-week season from 1 acre of vegetables. We are growing to 150 shares on 6 acres this coming year. The farm totals 80 acres, with approximately 25 tillable acres, and includes some of the best agricultural soils in our region. The farm is managed biodynamically, and is certified organic by NOFA-NY. We are looking for highly motivated individuals to work with the primary farmer in our diversified vegetable operation. Applicants should have previous farm experience and a strong interest in farming as a career. Ideally, applicants should have been through a well-structured apprenticeship program and be looking for a chance to put into practice the skills they obtained. We are looking for people who can work quickly and efficiently but also care about the quality of their experience. A high degree of responsibility will be given, and in exchange a high level of quality in work is expected. Experience with machinery and with livestock and crops other than vegetables is desirable. Tasks will include planting, cultivating, harvesting and washing, as well as interacting with community members on a weekly basis. We offer a stipend of $300 per month plus room and board. Living accomodations are in the family farmhouse, and all cooking and cleaning will be shared. We are a vegetarian household. This position is not an apprenticeship: a base level of knowledge about farming and physical work is assumed. We offer a chance to experience the complete life of a young biodynamic farm, and to participate in its growth. Long-term involvement with the community farm is possible, based on compatibility. If interested, please contact: Nathaniel Thompson RR 1 Box 136 Amenia, NY 12501 (914) 373-8010 email: farmernat@mohawk.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 12:15:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24203 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24046; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:57:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23605 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:54:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.158] (pm3shep3-163-158.intrepid.net [209.190.163.158]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA24488 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:57:14 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:54:04 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: Bee Advice from Jim Jensen Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 68 Dear Starhawk, Welcome to the difficult world of beekeeping. Don't get discouraged, even "experts" are losing 30-50% of their hives. But it is important work we do, not only for the bees, but for the plants and ourselves. Since this was your first year, I hope you will contanct me for the Biodynamic Honeybee Symposium. In it, we have all sorts of info for the beginner. Jim Jensen @ bdnut@mindspring.com Reviewing your leter brought several issues to the forefront. 1st, the spring swarm may have signaled a weak colony. It may have swarmed because there was not enough space to express itself, or it may have been stressed by parasites or conditions in the hive. The swarming itself means the colony had fewer bees to work with. (ie stores eaten in august) Increasing space for spring build up is critical. Secondly, are you monitoring the hives thru the year for pests? You mention using an internet oil treatment. Was it effective? Which pests are you dealing with? Considering that the bees made it into winter but then died as a small clump I'd say they just couldn't cut it. To many problems of whatever nature and there are not enough bees for the organism to stay viable thru the winter stress. Good luck this year, give me a hollar if you want to talk bees, Jim Jensen Jim Jensen Atlanta, GA bdnut@mindspring.com The BioDynamic Honeybee Symposium A Quarterly forum for discussion of important topics. From beekeepers to beekeepers. Contact me for copies. >Hello Friends on Bd-Now, >I was hoping someone on the list would have some advice for Starhawk, who >recently started keeping bees. I told her to tell you all a little about >her situation and that maybe someone could help her! Thanks...Allan, can >you forward this to Jim Jenson? > >Many thanks, >Jane Sherry >-------------------------------------------------------------- >Greetings, biodynamic beekeepers. I'm a beginning beekeeper and my first >hive died. My neighbor and I, who share the hive, want to try again but >we're wondering where we went wrong. Here's some of the details--we got >the hive in March and they swarmed sometime in May. We took out one super >of honey in June. At that time they still had another super left--but we >were warned by neighbors that there isn't a lot of summer forage up here. >We're in Cazadero, California, back in the hills, so the main agriculture >is grapes. A lot of people have fruit trees so there's good spring forage, >but by midsummer all the wildflowers are gone, it's very hot and dry, and >only some garden flowers to feed from. In late August we thought we might >take some more honey--but when we checked they had eaten most of what was >there earlier. We've been doing the essential oil treatment that's been >circulating around on the internet, which involves feeding them with sugar >syrup laced with wintergreen oil and cakes of crisco, sugar and >wintergreen, so they had some of that available to them at all times. > >In the fall, the rosemary bloomed and they were all over big patches of it, >and seemed to be happily storing up more honey. We generally have fairly >mild winters--this year we had a patch of very warm weather in December and >then a sudden freeze when the temperature dropped in one night down way >below freezing. We hadn't closed off the entrance to the hive and we had a >couple of supers on it--anyway, we didn't check it for a few weeks as I was >out of the country, but when we did, the feeding jar had been knocked over >by raccoons and the bees were all dead, mostly in a ball huddled in the >center of the brood chamber, about five or six inches in diameter. We >looked for mites with a hand lens and didn't see any but we also weren't >exactly sure what we were looking for. Could they have frozen to death? >Should we have insulated the hive, or taken off the extra super? They did >have some honey left. Any advice or suggestions would b much appreciated. >Blessings to you all, Starhawk > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 12:17:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24262 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:16:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25906; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:06:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA25230 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.27]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-53521U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:07:14 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:06:15 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Bee Advice from Jim Jensen Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 69 thanks for forwarding this on for me, Allan... I hope Star can participate in Jim's Symposium...I've sent her the response! best regards, Jane From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 12:47:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA25319 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:47:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01694; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:36:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01428 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:35:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0107.direct.ca ([204.244.83.7] helo=direct.ca) by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10MbJk-0003tb-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:38:21 -0800 Message-ID: <36ED451E.2C0A9A0A@direct.ca> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:36:30 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: flow form References: <002a01be6eff$99436800$f1f2facf@pavilion> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------FE7C8377D640D25A31917696" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 70 --------------FE7C8377D640D25A31917696 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank U for sharing this with us, Parker. All the best and: children's wisdom is worth the universe. Regards Ferdinand parker wrote: > List-All the talk was so fascinating awhile back on the flowforms > that I bought Schwenk's Sensitive Chaos. This book has only increased > my enthusiasm for flowing forms. Yesterday I was playing with the 4 > year old son of the man who owns the land I live on. There is a spring > which runs into a hand dug pond which flows into a shallow creek that > we run the water ram off of. I showed Ian a picture of the flow form > and suggested that we go down to the creek and experiment with > building a natural run with the rocks already living there. This > turned into an all afternoon project as Ian exclaimed again and again > "dis is wrere cool!, I felt exactly the same way as we worked our way > probably a quarter mile down the creek and built four, probably 40 ft > flowforms with the rocks along the sides of the creek. I wrestled with > the idea that I was changing the natural flow of the creek, but also > felt distinctly that the dry rocks from the side of the bed were > loving their new bath of water. We spent time after each construction > looking at the forms we built, sitting in the sun, and explaining to > Ian again and again why I didn't want to connect all the flow forms > together but leave large spaces for the creek to spend its life in its > natural state. He finally said to me, "The creek is happy". As good an > exclamation as could be. Parker -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. --------------FE7C8377D640D25A31917696 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank U for sharing this with us, Parker. All the best and: children's wisdom is worth the universe. Regards Ferdinand

parker wrote:

 List-All the talk was so fascinating awhile back on the flowforms that I bought Schwenk's Sensitive Chaos. This book has only increased my enthusiasm for flowing forms. Yesterday I was playing with the 4 year old son of the man who owns the land I live on. There is a spring which runs into a hand dug pond which flows into a shallow creek that we run the water ram off of. I showed Ian a picture of the flow form and suggested that we go down to the creek and experiment with building a natural run with the rocks already living there. This turned into an all afternoon project as Ian exclaimed again and again "dis is wrere cool!, I felt exactly the same way as we worked our way probably a quarter mile down the creek and built four, probably 40 ft flowforms with the rocks along the sides of the creek. I wrestled with the idea that I was changing the natural flow of the creek, but also felt distinctly that the dry rocks from the side of the bed were loving their new bath of water. We spent time after each construction looking at the forms we built, sitting in the sun, and explaining to Ian again and again why I didn't want to connect all the flow forms together but leave large spaces for the creek to spend its life in its natural state. He finally said to me, "The creek is happy". As good an exclamation as could be. Parker

--

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C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO
AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD
 FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY.
  --------------FE7C8377D640D25A31917696-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 13:03:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26064 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:03:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05157; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:52:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04874 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:51:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0107.direct.ca ([204.244.83.7] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10MbYS-0000fU-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:53:32 -0800 Message-ID: <36ED48AB.801D690E@direct.ca> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:51:39 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging References: <12880E467AF2@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 71 Careful, careful, careful when rototilling. It can make a real mess depending what soil and cover crop you have. God, one year we rototilled one field and hit quack grass.......! YOu never see the end, really! I do not know whether the rototiller is a good thing as it upsets the ground in almost 'anywhichway' you are looking at it. Of course, rototillers can be attached to tractors or hand operated etc. and the speed can be varied. Vegetable growers can hardly do without but them, please spray VALERIAN immediately after use. Valerian is a soil-surface healer (unifyer) - a skin builder - and can help you to keep the etheric forces inside the soil. Regards Ferdinand "Anita Graf (Staff)" wrote: > Just realized that when I posted my last post on this topic that it > had already been well covered (pun?) beautifully and articulately by > Steve and others. It ain't easy keeping up with all the posts > sometimes! > > Anita > > > Jane Sherry wrote: > > > Hello Bd-Now friends, > > > There has been much discussion about no-till (Ruth Stout?) vs. Jeavon's > > > style double digging (French biointensive) on the organic gardening list of > > > late. People with clay soils have been writing in asking if they should > > > rototill or double dig and add amendments, and being told to leave it alone > > > and add stuff on top in layers, like newpapers (sans colored inks), straw, > > > manure, etc. And that in a few years, they would have that lovely crumbly > > > soil. (To plant, just poke in a hole through all that stuff and drop in the > > > seeds.) > > > > In permaculture, you'd find preference for the no-till method. > > In biointensive,you'd find preference for double-dig. > > In Fukuoka-style natural farming, you'd find preference for no-till. > > In Kyusei Nature Farming, you'd find preference for a mechanical spader. > > In market gardening, who has time to double-dig, or rely on > > comparatively more risky no-till. > > In truck farming, you'd find preference for mechanical tillage. > > In backyard gardening, you can do whatever you want. > > In biodynamics, you have a framework to interweave biological > > and dynamic practices to create a living dynamic force in the > > garden or farm so there is flexibility and adaptability to > > the whatever digging method works best for your particular > > situation, though incorporation of compost would be seen as > > a good soil management practice. > > > > "Nature bends and shapes the inputs of man and crafts her own" > > > > If we had the Sutras of Organic Agriculture laid out before us, > > the sutras that do not yet exist in print but do exist in the collective > > brains banks of millions of farmers worldwide, the sutras crafted > > from thousands of years indigenous knowledge-tribal agriculture > > mixed with modern ecological agriculture insights from clairovoyants > > like Steiner and humus farmers like Ehrenfried Pfeiffer, we could refer > > to a simple parable-paragraph and understand all that is necessary. > > > > Like Christopher Alexander's "A Pattern Language" or Pantajali's > > "Yoga Sutra's", you can spin a long story to support an individual > > sutra. > > > > In the examples above, it helps to understand the framework > > you are working with. > > > > The "scale" of production makes a huge impact on how you approach > > the no-till and double-dig picture. > > > > Double digging is *very* labor intensive. While you are still > > digging and digging and digging and digging to establish the > > market garden, the season is passing by and you are still digging > > instead of planting and weeding and harvesting and playing. > > > > The largest double-dug market garden I've seen in California is > > a one-acre farm owned by white guy recognized for his organic produce. > > However, the actual physical digging was done by a full-time Mexican > > laborer. > > > > Alex MacGregor in Tennesse has a 6-acre biointensive market garden, > > I'm think. I am very interested to visit this farm and get a good > > picture how the actual labor and mechanics are worked out. > > > > On the other hand, no-till veggie production is still largely > > dependent on at least a minimum of herbides at the commercial scale. > > At the home gardening scale, it is no problem. > > > > You see, the paragraphs are spinning off and I've barely touched > > on this subject. Thus, a sutra is all you need, but the explanation > > goes on and on. > > > > Steve Diver > > > > -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 14:16:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28597 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:16:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19547; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:05:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19298 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:04:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.009D1606@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:06:49 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 15 Mar 99 14:06:47 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 15 Mar 99 14:06:46 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:06:40 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: organic Soybean production Priority: normal References: <36E96792.B80475D0@direct.ca> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <128AA3E719B9@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 72 Hola Guillermo, I just want to pass along a possible source of information to you on organic soybeans. I happen to know that Tom Reynolds of OCIA-VA is involved with organic soybeans (I think he may grow as well as export) and he is friendly (though he seemed a little strange to me the first time I talked to him, he turned out to be quite open and helpful with information) and he might be able to help you. His phone at OCIA-Virginia is 757-851-9463. The last time he and I talked he told me that the bumber soybean crop in Brazil had made the soybean market pretty dismal in general these days (for suppliers, that is!). Hasta luego, Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 14:34:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28984 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:34:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23275; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:24:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22557 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.009D1AA1@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:23:16 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 15 Mar 99 14:23:14 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 15 Mar 99 14:23:08 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:23:01 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: organic Soybean production Priority: normal References: In-reply-to: <128AA3E719B9@agecon.uga.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <128AE9C35341@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 73 oops, I didn't mean to send this out to everyone. I haven't asked Tom permission to spread his name around, so I would appreciate if everyone would bear this in mind. Thanks. Anita > Hola Guillermo, > > I just want to pass along a possible source of information to you on > organic soybeans. I happen to know that Tom Reynolds of OCIA-VA is > involved with organic soybeans (I think he may grow as well as > export) and he is friendly (though he seemed a little strange to me > the first time I talked to him, he turned out to be quite open and > helpful with information) and he might be able to help you. His > phone at OCIA-Virginia is 757-851-9463. The last time he and I > talked he told me that the bumber soybean crop in Brazil had made the > soybean market pretty dismal in general these days (for suppliers, > that is!). > > Hasta luego, > Anita > > > Anita Graf > 313-F Conner Hall > Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics > University of Georgia > Athens, GA 30602-7509 > (706) 542-1915 phone > (706) 542-0739 fax > agraf@agecon.uga.edu > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 14:28:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28832 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:28:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21946; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:17:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21432 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:15:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.009D193D@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:18:15 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 15 Mar 99 14:18:13 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 15 Mar 99 14:17:49 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:17:42 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF: unable to receive/send mail Priority: normal In-reply-to: <36EA8C89.49E9AF66@direct.ca> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <128AD30B0140@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 74 Ferdinand (and any others with this problem) May I suggest that you work on your response in word processing mode (ie not on e-mail) and when you are ready to post it, you can cut and paste it into e-mail (if you can print out the letters you want to respond to you could have them this way for reference. If don't have a printer, try cutting from e-mail and pasting into your word processor package and then start writing your answer underneith.) Since you often put a lot of time and effort into writing a long letter this could also save you time on the internet which you may be paying for by the minute. Just a suggestion. --Anita > The challenge is an additional one. I am trying to receive some 20 - 40 posts > and store them. Then, I go through them step by step and either discharge them > or answer. The answer I store in order to send it the next day - but what > really irks me is the fact that (at times) my system or the connection or > whatever breaks down and a long night's work is gone. Ferdinand > > Intergalactic Garage wrote: > > > >Dear friends, > > > > > >Living in the boonies has its disadvantages, too. My server does not > > >have enough lines and I can only receive or send posts for about 4 - 5 > > >hours per night. So, if you do not hear from you that much any longer, > > >it is the server that has 'cut me out'. In the past I could 'digest' > > >posts on an ongoing basis. At the moment there is a line : user > > >relationship of 1:20 which is far too high. Regards Ferdinand > > > > Everyone: > > > > Many of us are faced with this problem. A remedy is on the horizon. Many of > > the national long distance companies are offering internet connections as > > part of your regular service. You might want to check in with AT&T or > > Sprint, and so on. > > > > -Allan Balliett > > igg@igg.com > > -- > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO > AN UNDERSTANDING > OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST > FOUNDATION, > A REGISTERED CHARITY. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 14:52:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA29486 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:52:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27010; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:42:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26655 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:40:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.178] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.178]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.11.13.11.10) with ESMTP id <0F8N00GOWI749B@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:30:47 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:36:46 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: STUDY L3:2 -organic chemistry -2 In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <36DC2B91.4F09@xtra.co.nz> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA26696 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 75 >>Hugh >> >>Thank you for your reply on organic chemistry. >> >>I appreciate CHO, sugars and fats etc are all products of living >>organisms. From your reply (and other thoughts), is it correct to >>conclude that all living organisms make use of and need nitrogen to >>exist? Naturally if it is not in the soil then it is easily extracted >>from the atmosphere. Even fungi and mosses in N depleted soils could get >>what they need from the air etc. So anyway is this an appropriate >>conclusion. >> >>Cheers >> >>Glen A. > >Glen, et. al., > >All living organisms need nitrogen to form amino acids and proteins. > >I believe there are algae as well as the whole Nitrobacteracea family that >can fix nitrogen from the air or from air dissolved in water. As well >nitrogen compounds develop in thunderstorms and snowstorms so there tends >to be an adequate nitrogen cycle if everything is working well enough. > >Best, >Hugh A small clarification: Different organisms vary enormously in their ability to synthesized aminoacids and in the forms of nitrogen used for this. Man can only make 50 % of the required aminoacids, the so called essential aminoacids, have to come from the diet. higher animals can use ammonium ions as the N source for making non essential aminoacids (AA), but they can not use nitrite, nitrate or atmospheric N. Higher plants are more versatile, they can make all their required AA and can use as N source ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. The legumininous plants, as you all know, through the N fixing bacteria in their root nodules are even capable to use atmospheric N, which they convert into ammonia. Microrganisms also vary a great deal in its ability to use and synthesize AA., some need enviroments rich in preformed AA, others, as above, can use the N available in the air. Hope this helps clarify things Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 15:00:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28597 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:16:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19547; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:05:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19298 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:04:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.009D1606@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:06:49 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 15 Mar 99 14:06:47 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 15 Mar 99 14:06:46 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:06:40 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: organic Soybean production Priority: normal References: <36E96792.B80475D0@direct.ca> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <128AA3E719B9@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 76 Hola Guillermo, I just want to pass along a possible source of information to you on organic soybeans. I happen to know that Tom Reynolds of OCIA-VA is involved with organic soybeans (I think he may grow as well as export) and he is friendly (though he seemed a little strange to me the first time I talked to him, he turned out to be quite open and helpful with information) and he might be able to help you. His phone at OCIA-Virginia is 757-851-9463. The last time he and I talked he told me that the bumber soybean crop in Brazil had made the soybean market pretty dismal in general these days (for suppliers, that is!). Hasta luego, Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 15:00:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28984 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:34:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23275; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:24:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22557 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.009D1AA1@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:23:16 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 15 Mar 99 14:23:14 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 15 Mar 99 14:23:08 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:23:01 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: organic Soybean production Priority: normal References: In-reply-to: <128AA3E719B9@agecon.uga.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <128AE9C35341@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 77 oops, I didn't mean to send this out to everyone. I haven't asked Tom permission to spread his name around, so I would appreciate if everyone would bear this in mind. Thanks. Anita > Hola Guillermo, > > I just want to pass along a possible source of information to you on > organic soybeans. I happen to know that Tom Reynolds of OCIA-VA is > involved with organic soybeans (I think he may grow as well as > export) and he is friendly (though he seemed a little strange to me > the first time I talked to him, he turned out to be quite open and > helpful with information) and he might be able to help you. His > phone at OCIA-Virginia is 757-851-9463. The last time he and I > talked he told me that the bumber soybean crop in Brazil had made the > soybean market pretty dismal in general these days (for suppliers, > that is!). > > Hasta luego, > Anita > > > Anita Graf > 313-F Conner Hall > Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics > University of Georgia > Athens, GA 30602-7509 > (706) 542-1915 phone > (706) 542-0739 fax > agraf@agecon.uga.edu > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 15:00:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28832 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:28:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21946; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:17:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21432 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:15:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.009D193D@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:18:15 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 15 Mar 99 14:18:13 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 15 Mar 99 14:17:49 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:17:42 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF: unable to receive/send mail Priority: normal In-reply-to: <36EA8C89.49E9AF66@direct.ca> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <128AD30B0140@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 78 Ferdinand (and any others with this problem) May I suggest that you work on your response in word processing mode (ie not on e-mail) and when you are ready to post it, you can cut and paste it into e-mail (if you can print out the letters you want to respond to you could have them this way for reference. If don't have a printer, try cutting from e-mail and pasting into your word processor package and then start writing your answer underneith.) Since you often put a lot of time and effort into writing a long letter this could also save you time on the internet which you may be paying for by the minute. Just a suggestion. --Anita > The challenge is an additional one. I am trying to receive some 20 - 40 posts > and store them. Then, I go through them step by step and either discharge them > or answer. The answer I store in order to send it the next day - but what > really irks me is the fact that (at times) my system or the connection or > whatever breaks down and a long night's work is gone. Ferdinand > > Intergalactic Garage wrote: > > > >Dear friends, > > > > > >Living in the boonies has its disadvantages, too. My server does not > > >have enough lines and I can only receive or send posts for about 4 - 5 > > >hours per night. So, if you do not hear from you that much any longer, > > >it is the server that has 'cut me out'. In the past I could 'digest' > > >posts on an ongoing basis. At the moment there is a line : user > > >relationship of 1:20 which is far too high. Regards Ferdinand > > > > Everyone: > > > > Many of us are faced with this problem. A remedy is on the horizon. Many of > > the national long distance companies are offering internet connections as > > part of your regular service. You might want to check in with AT&T or > > Sprint, and so on. > > > > -Allan Balliett > > igg@igg.com > > -- > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO > AN UNDERSTANDING > OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST > FOUNDATION, > A REGISTERED CHARITY. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 15:39:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA29486 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:52:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27010; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:42:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26655 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:40:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.178] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.178]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.11.13.11.10) with ESMTP id <0F8N00GOWI749B@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:30:47 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:36:46 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: STUDY L3:2 -organic chemistry -2 In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <36DC2B91.4F09@xtra.co.nz> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA26696 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 79 >>Hugh >> >>Thank you for your reply on organic chemistry. >> >>I appreciate CHO, sugars and fats etc are all products of living >>organisms. From your reply (and other thoughts), is it correct to >>conclude that all living organisms make use of and need nitrogen to >>exist? Naturally if it is not in the soil then it is easily extracted >>from the atmosphere. Even fungi and mosses in N depleted soils could get >>what they need from the air etc. So anyway is this an appropriate >>conclusion. >> >>Cheers >> >>Glen A. > >Glen, et. al., > >All living organisms need nitrogen to form amino acids and proteins. > >I believe there are algae as well as the whole Nitrobacteracea family that >can fix nitrogen from the air or from air dissolved in water. As well >nitrogen compounds develop in thunderstorms and snowstorms so there tends >to be an adequate nitrogen cycle if everything is working well enough. > >Best, >Hugh A small clarification: Different organisms vary enormously in their ability to synthesized aminoacids and in the forms of nitrogen used for this. Man can only make 50 % of the required aminoacids, the so called essential aminoacids, have to come from the diet. higher animals can use ammonium ions as the N source for making non essential aminoacids (AA), but they can not use nitrite, nitrate or atmospheric N. Higher plants are more versatile, they can make all their required AA and can use as N source ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. The legumininous plants, as you all know, through the N fixing bacteria in their root nodules are even capable to use atmospheric N, which they convert into ammonia. Microrganisms also vary a great deal in its ability to use and synthesize AA., some need enviroments rich in preformed AA, others, as above, can use the N available in the air. Hope this helps clarify things Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 15:45:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01819 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:45:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06772; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:34:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06326 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:31:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.32] (pm3shep2-163-108.intrepid.net [209.190.163.108]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09732; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:34:22 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:36:17 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Al Kapuler replies "The impact of GMO's on our future" Cc: Jan Stettler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 80 Dear Allan, I returned from three weeks in Belize to your communications. After reflecting on the issues which surface every time a new gene tech wonder development like tripling the amount of iron in rice by transferring the soybean ferritin gene to rice (latest issue of biotechnology) takes place, as well as some of the mindbending scenarios that I discussed like growing crops in the ocean, I'm glad to participate in the discussion of the consequences and impacts of our adventuring with genetic technologies and the biosphere. First thing that comes to me is that a significant part of my distrust of GMO's is that our government, and the USDA in particular, but certainly the FDA also, failed to protect our food system. The introduction of genetically modified soybeans, rape seed and corn and their derived food products into the mainstream food system of America and the world without extensive and thorough examination both of the foodstuffs and the impact on the environment (read this as biospheric ecosystems)and without proper and appropriate labelling is foolish, potentially dangerous, immoral. illicit and unacceptable. Now comes the harder issue; what to do with the truly out of control biotechnology industry. This dovetails with the process of turning the molecular biology of life into a cellular and molecular real estate business. While I am very glad to read that Tony Settler has understood what a marvelous future may be possible by developing new kinds of plants using transgenetic techniques and implementing concepts for non-violence into our lives as well as generating new kinds of diversity, the forces of greed, ignorance, arrogance, desire for power and control, all manifestations of distorted ego's and the lack of a healthy and direct connection to the basic divine fount of existence make these future potentialities difficult to implement. I keep remembering the slogans of my childhood "Better living thru chemistry", "Atoms for Peace", and the current cry of the local paperpulp industry "Dilution is the solution to pollution". Years ago in writing about Ecosanity, one of the prime tenets was that all industry and truly all endeavor must have a zero-sum cycle. That means no pollution. Totally clean cycles. And that we should fine and diminish all producers who pollute in proportion to their destructive forces. Thus the companies that have genetically polluted the food system need to be held responsible just like the chemical companies that have proliferated and distributed agricultural poisons need to be held responsible for the illnesses, species loss and ecodevastation that arises from the misuse of chemistry. The misuse of physics and mathematics has led to atomic pollution. The misuse of chemistry has led to a spectrum of pollutions. Now genetic technology is coming on with slogans and solutions, more food on less ground, more efficient production of carbonaceous material from sunlight, CO2 and water while the real issues are our lack of loving and heartfelt cooperation, lack of efficient and fair distribution of materials, insufficient vision of a interdependant and harmonious local and world society. So rather that being "stupidly reactionary", we have to take it as it comes, with a wholistic vision, an integrating understanding and a patience that transcends the hubris is small-time discoveries, fame and profit. Serving the collective wellbeing advances our souls. Best to you. Al Kapuler From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 17:08:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA04714 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:08:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20205; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:56:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from send205.yahoomail.com (send205.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.129]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20065 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:56:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990315220048.11514.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Received: from [206.205.40.10] by send205.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:00:48 PST Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:00:48 -0800 (PST) From: bruce ritchie Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 81 Hey all, it's easy to get into black and white thinking about tilling, but from my reading and experience, it seems that one method alone is not adequate. The rodales organic gardening book talks about the positive value of no-till for several years, but how eventually the soil needs aeration. How about the idea of monitoring the soil and tilling in OM after several years of no-till, when the soil could use the additioon of more air. Observatioon and real decisioon-making always beat the 'program' approach. That's why i monitor the BD list, because of the asstute observatioons! Bruce Ritchie _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 21:22:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA13575 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:22:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA23982; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:07:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from anat.ncds.net (anat.ncds.net [207.250.242.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA23766 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:05:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from pavilion (p01-68.ffxp.ncds.net [207.250.242.243] (may be forged)) by anat.ncds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7-sp) with SMTP id UAA31976 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 20:08:26 -0600 Message-ID: <002801be6f62$d433df40$f3f2facf@pavilion> From: "parker" To: Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 20:04:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 82 Dear Alan- Thank-you so much for your two-cents, worth at least a dime. I think you are maybe right about the single dig. patience is a virtue. Those damn tools are enough to make anyone gung-ho. We burned yesterday and today and it seemed to be the perfect time, a nice little mossy mat protected the soil, and the deer trail and our own breaks made beautiful contours in the garden which I will leave for the paths. I will stick that big dog of a tool down in there a couple times to see what's what, but the potato fork should turn it, you're right it seems pretty loose underneath, crossing my fingers about the rocks. I was working at Coulee Springs Farm in Sparta WI last season and we were purely old fashion tractor and rototiller. I wanted to make some double dug beds, but my mentor pleaded no time. I was completely unimpressed with the soil structure there. It was a beginning BD farm, but a CSA for 6 years. Blevins sounds like a thoughtful, patient man. My friend has an Italian spader that I will check out this season, but what is everyone going to do when the fossil fuel runs out. There were a couple guys at the Upper Midwest Organic Conference selling a solar tractor. Very pricey, but right on! Parker -----Original Message----- From: Intergalactic Garage To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 6:27 AM Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging >>I think it is quite right whoever pointed out that it will be different for >>different types of farmers. I worked for a heavy production oriented BD CSA >>farm last season and it became acheingly clear during the May madness that >>double-digging would leave the CSA members starving. > >Parker - was this a start-up CSA? Were these initial double-digs, or what >was happening at this BD CSA? (remind me: which BD CSA is this?) > >But maybe the solution >>is to dig parts of your garden each year and slowly phase out the tractor. > >Like a growing number of BD growers, Bruce Blevins is a champion of the >Italian machines. (NOT the Dutch machines) His motto: when you bring the >tractor into the garden your main plan has to be how to get the tractor >back out of the garden. I believe he plans for three spadings in a two >season period. And then it's U-bars from then on. > >>Like Hugh said after a bed has been double dug once, and turned a couple >>more times it becomes much easier to work with. Beds that I dug three years >>ago only need a quick once over with the fork before planting. This year my >>partner and I plan to dig a quarter acre in 4 days with two U-bars. > >IMHO, If you are planning initial digs with u-bars, either you don't really >need double- digging, ie your soil is very loose already, or you are going >to have a couple of broken u-bars or you just plain aint going to make it. >If time is of the essence, a single dig the first year, with good deep >rooting cover crops over the winter (and daikon whenever possible otherwise >:-), and a double dig the following spring, would seem like a good plan. > >The real Steve Moore, at Wilson College in Chambersburg PA, is a certified >John Jeavons instructor and takes a very s-l-o-w approach to that two foot >deep bed. He says that you should enjoy repeatedly discovering how much of >your double digging the plants do for you....over the seasons as you dig >and re-dig your bed. > >Your idea of 'volunteer beds' is rather exciting! > >Just my two-cents, > >Allan Balliett >BIODYNAMICS Now! >POB 3047 >Shepherdstown, WV >25443 >(304) 876-2373 >(815) 550-6067 FAX Forwarding << Please note the new fax number!! >> > > >=================================================================== > >SUBSCRIBE to Our Hot Release Information Lists! > Know the latest releases!! > Get the BEST prices!! > > >TORI AMOS LIST: igg@igg.com SUBJECT=SUBSCRIBE TORI-L > You MUST include your FULL NAME and SHIPPING ADDRESS in the body of the >message > >New Arrival/PRe-Order/ SALE Lists: igg@igg.com SUBJECT=SUBSCRIBE IGG-L > >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ > >CUSTOMER SERVICE: maura@intrepid.net > >Please Check Home Page for latest lists and info! > >http://www.igg.com > >=================================================================== >How To Order Information: http://igg.com/howtoorder.html >How To Pre-Order Information http://igg.com/HowToP.html >=================================================================== >INTERGALACTIC GARAGE >Compact Disks and WorldWide Music Collectibles >110 West German Street >POB 3047 >Shepherdstown, WV 25443 >(304) 876-6818 / (304) 876-9414 FAX >Email = igg@igg.com >HOME PAGE: http://www.igg.com > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 21:31:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA13873 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:31:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25148; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:19:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24907 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:17:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.186]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990316022017.NYTX682101.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:20:17 +1300 Message-ID: <36EDC01B.4FAE@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:21:15 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: STUDY L3:2 -organic chemistry -2 References: <36DC2B91.4F09@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 83 > Different organisms vary enormously in their ability to synthesized aminoacids and in the forms of nitrogen used for this. Man can only make 50 % of the required aminoacids, the so called essential aminoacids, have to come from the diet. > > higher animals can use ammonium ions as the N source for making non essential aminoacids (AA), but they can not use nitrite, nitrate or atmospheric N. Higher plants are more versatile, they can make all their required AA and can use as N source ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. The legumininous plants, as you all know, through the N fixing bacteria in their root nodules are even capable to use atmospheric N, which they convert into ammonia. > > Microrganisms also vary a great deal in its ability to use and synthesize AA., some need enviroments rich in preformed AA, others, as above, can use the N available in the air. > > Hope this helps clarify things > > Guillermo Romero I. > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Thank you for this GR I am left with the question. We have it stated that plants do not incarnate the Astrality and that it hovers above the plant slightly impressing itself upon the forces moving upwards, and only rarely entering deeply into plants to produce poisons. Yet we have statements in lecture 3 saying how the Astrality is carried by nitrogen and where nitrogen goes so the Astrality follows. And that nitrogen is of central importance for the distribution of the etheric, And then statements above that nitrogen is necessary in just about all plant growth and the paths of nitrogen can be seen through out all the plant, yet we are saying that the astrality does not follow it into plants. So what is the nature of this nitrogen and its relationship to the astrality? Is it possible that Just as we have living and dead nitrogen, do we have a bound and free Astrality? And that while we can talk of the Astral body not incarnating ( free astrality) do we have a situation such as expressed in the 0-7 year old or 7-14 year old where we can say that the astral body has not fully incarnated ( to become bound astrality) however it does impress itself upon the life form enough for organ formation and sentient life to manifest in the young child, or in our case the pre-flowering plant? cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 21:37:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14011 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:37:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25928; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:25:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheddar.direct.ca (cheddar.direct.ca [199.60.229.16]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA25878 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:25:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0103.direct.ca ([204.244.83.3] helo=direct.ca) by cheddar.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #20) id 10MjZr-0000hE-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:27:31 -0800 Message-ID: <36EDC11D.E7308798@direct.ca> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:25:33 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Al Kapuler replies "The impact of GMO's on our future" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 84 Dear Al, Are you saying that we should wait and see and not do anything but behave like sheep? Or WHAT is your course of action here? Do you have any PRACTICAL SUGGESTIONS such as: 1. 2. 3. 4. etc. I am interested. Regards Ferdinand Intergalactic Garage wrote: > speaks!! He's offering to 'dialogue' with us on this topic. Please don't > hesitate to speak up - or out, on this issue, given this opportunity. > -Allan Balliett, moderator, BD Now! > > > Dear Allan, > I returned from three weeks in Belize to your communications. After > reflecting on the issues which surface every time a new gene tech wonder > development like tripling the amount of iron in rice by transferring the > soybean ferritin gene to rice (latest issue of biotechnology) takes place, > as well as some of the mindbending scenarios that I discussed like growing > crops in the ocean, I'm glad to participate in the discussion of the > consequences and impacts of our adventuring with genetic technologies and > the biosphere. > First thing that comes to me is that a significant part of my > distrust of GMO's is that our government, and the USDA in particular, but > certainly the FDA also, failed to protect our food system. > The introduction of genetically modified soybeans, rape seed and corn and > their derived food products into the mainstream food system of America and > the world without extensive and thorough examination both of the foodstuffs > and the impact on the environment (read this as biospheric ecosystems)and > without proper and appropriate labelling is foolish, potentially dangerous, > immoral. illicit and unacceptable. > Now comes the harder issue; what to do with the truly out of > control biotechnology industry. > This dovetails with the process of turning the molecular biology of life > into a cellular and molecular real estate business. > While I am very glad to read that Tony Settler has understood what > a marvelous future may be possible by developing new kinds of plants using > transgenetic techniques and implementing concepts for non-violence into our > lives as well as generating new kinds of diversity, the forces of greed, > ignorance, arrogance, desire for power and control, all manifestations of > distorted ego's and the lack of a healthy and direct connection to the > basic divine fount of existence make these future potentialities difficult > to implement. > I keep remembering the slogans of my childhood "Better living thru > chemistry", "Atoms for Peace", and the current cry of the local paperpulp > industry "Dilution is the solution to pollution". > Years ago in writing about Ecosanity, one of the prime tenets was > that all industry and truly all endeavor must have a zero-sum cycle. That > means no pollution. Totally clean cycles. And that we should fine and > diminish all producers who pollute in proportion to their destructive > forces. Thus the companies that have genetically polluted the food system > need to be held responsible just like the chemical companies that have > proliferated and distributed agricultural poisons need to be held > responsible for the illnesses, species loss and ecodevastation that arises > from the misuse of chemistry. > The misuse of physics and mathematics has led to atomic pollution. > The misuse of chemistry has led to a spectrum of pollutions. > Now genetic technology is coming on with slogans and solutions, > more food on less ground, more efficient production of carbonaceous > material from sunlight, CO2 and water while the real issues are our lack of > loving and heartfelt cooperation, lack of efficient and fair distribution > of materials, insufficient vision of a interdependant and harmonious local > and world society. > So rather that being "stupidly reactionary", we have to take it as > it comes, with a wholistic vision, an integrating understanding and a > patience that transcends the hubris is small-time discoveries, fame and > profit. Serving the collective wellbeing advances our souls. > Best to you. > Al Kapuler -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 21:48:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14386 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:48:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA27324; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:37:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA27204 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0103.direct.ca ([204.244.83.3] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10Mjkz-0004H8-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:39:01 -0800 Message-ID: <36EDC3BE.EA7ADA05@direct.ca> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:36:46 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging References: <19990315220048.11514.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 85 Dear Bruce, If I was I weather forteller...... and here comes another challenge. Last year we double tilled in our garden and raised our beds with this method. And, my golly, we had the dryest year ever. No rain for 5 months. You should have seen the desert. So, really, double digging aereates the soil too and can cause the loss of a lot of moisture. Perhaps, this year we will simply turn the soil over, keep the beds low (but, what do you see in store for the Pacific Northwest?) Lots of rain or what? Kind regards Ferdinand bruce ritchie wrote: > Hey all, > it's easy to get into black and white thinking about tilling, > but from my reading and experience, it seems that one method alone is > not adequate. The rodales organic gardening book talks about the > positive value of no-till for several years, but how eventually the > soil needs aeration. How about the idea of monitoring the soil and > tilling in OM after several years of no-till, when the soil could use > the additioon of more air. Observatioon and real decisioon-making > always beat the 'program' approach. That's why i monitor the BD list, > because of the asstute observatioons! Bruce Ritchie > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 21:52:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14483 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:52:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA27716; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:40:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA27363 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:38:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts2-4.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.199.36]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with SMTP id SAA21491 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:40:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990315185644.00930eb0@mail.kootenay.com> Message-Id: <4.1.19990315185644.00930eb0@mail.kootenay.com> X-Sender: woodyw@mail.kootenay.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:20:36 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Woody Subject: Re: Al Kapuler replies: Hey Steven! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 86 Steve McFadden and all... Well, this from Al Kapuler just in time for your new moon deadline...what a beautiful exposition. I've hesitated to add to this GEO Consensus thread myself because: 1) the whole thing just makes me spittin' mad; 2) I don't have the credentials or background to articulate the reasons that I KNOW GE is a terrible mistake, a crime against humanity and the Planet. What I do want to add is a personal note to Rob Johnson of Johnny's Selected Seeds; it was his stance on GE seeds that got us going on this thread in the first place. Dear Rob: I've purchased seed from Johnny's for more than a decade now, sometimes a considerable amount, at least by a small-time gardener's standards. I always looked forward to getting your catalog, to see the newest photo of you and your employee gang. I was always impressed that your Maine growout/research farm was certified organic, and like many of us I figured most if not all your seeds were organic. The last few years you've had a little article in the catalog titled "Organic Growing at Johnny's" which has been a bit of a waffle job: Yes, you say, your farm is certified organic, but then you say "...we strive to supply seeds grown with minimal pesticide use" and "...organic does not necessarily mean 'good'" and so on... clearly stating between the lines that your commitment is not total. Now you're waffling bigtime on genetic engineering. It's been said here on the BDNOW! List that you can't control your suppliers' methods or seed sources. OK. But it smells like a sellout to me and you''ve lost me as a customer. You see, Rob, there are other seed growers who don't abandon their ideals in the face of what Al Kapular calls "...foolish, potentially dangerous, immoral. illicit and unacceptable..." growing and business practices. So long, Rob, Woody Wodraska From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 22:25:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA15428 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 22:25:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00827; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 22:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00788 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 22:13:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0103.direct.ca ([204.244.83.3] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10MkKZ-00075L-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:15:48 -0800 Message-ID: <36EDCC5B.DB1078FB@direct.ca> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:13:31 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging References: <002801be6f62$d433df40$f3f2facf@pavilion> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 87 Dear Parker, When I was a kid we burned, burned, burned in the garden. Baby Burn, was the call..... My mother (there she is running again) came out all the time and doused the fire. Stop, stop, stop was her war cry. Why? We were asked to make a study (1955!) and first, we had to smell the air. Atrocious.Then, we had to look at the carbon build up. She told us it will remain so for thousands of years and deplete the soil of nutrients. I had no clue what that meant. Then, we looked at a half burned hedge hog which looked dreadful and we had to kill it........(never a fire anymore, I thought). And she pointed out that the small garden life (biobalance she said) woule be upset. We looked at the water which was as gray as can be. Sticks did not burn properly and could not be used any longer. Entire bug schools got roasted. The frogs that made it out of the moss were blown up by the heat. It was a real lesson. And so, she said: All goes onto the compost. Again 1955 and BD!! Nothing will be burned, nothing. That's my story, my friend. And, one more thing. I don't think that fossil fuel will run out - we are going to run out of other things first: (again Mama) God had a reason to keep that oil far below us, it is the blood of the earth, she said. A lot of it. More than you can ever think of. Blood is a very, very special juice and nobody drinks it without getting punished (and bang, there went another moskito....). Regards Ferdinand parker wrote: > Dear Alan- > Thank-you so much for your two-cents, worth at least a dime. I think you are > maybe right about the single dig. patience is a virtue. Those damn tools are > enough to make anyone gung-ho. We burned yesterday and today and it seemed > to be the perfect time, a nice little mossy mat protected the soil, and the > deer trail and our own breaks made beautiful contours in the garden which I > will leave for the paths. I will stick that big dog of a tool down in there > a couple times to see what's what, but the potato fork should turn it, > you're right it seems pretty loose underneath, crossing my fingers about the > rocks. > I was working at Coulee Springs Farm in Sparta WI last season and we > were purely old fashion tractor and rototiller. I wanted to make some double > dug beds, but my mentor pleaded no time. I was completely unimpressed with > the soil structure there. It was a beginning BD farm, but a CSA for 6 years. > Blevins sounds like a thoughtful, patient man. My friend has an Italian > spader that I will check out this season, but what is everyone going to do > when the fossil fuel runs out. > There were a couple guys at the Upper Midwest Organic Conference > selling a solar tractor. Very pricey, but right on! > Parker > -----Original Message----- > From: Intergalactic Garage > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 6:27 AM > Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging > > >>I think it is quite right whoever pointed out that it will be different > for > >>different types of farmers. I worked for a heavy production oriented BD > CSA > >>farm last season and it became acheingly clear during the May madness that > >>double-digging would leave the CSA members starving. > > > >Parker - was this a start-up CSA? Were these initial double-digs, or what > >was happening at this BD CSA? (remind me: which BD CSA is this?) > > > >But maybe the solution > >>is to dig parts of your garden each year and slowly phase out the tractor. > > > >Like a growing number of BD growers, Bruce Blevins is a champion of the > >Italian machines. (NOT the Dutch machines) His motto: when you bring the > >tractor into the garden your main plan has to be how to get the tractor > >back out of the garden. I believe he plans for three spadings in a two > >season period. And then it's U-bars from then on. > > > >>Like Hugh said after a bed has been double dug once, and turned a couple > >>more times it becomes much easier to work with. Beds that I dug three > years > >>ago only need a quick once over with the fork before planting. This year > my > >>partner and I plan to dig a quarter acre in 4 days with two U-bars. > > > >IMHO, If you are planning initial digs with u-bars, either you don't really > >need double- digging, ie your soil is very loose already, or you are going > >to have a couple of broken u-bars or you just plain aint going to make it. > >If time is of the essence, a single dig the first year, with good deep > >rooting cover crops over the winter (and daikon whenever possible otherwise > >:-), and a double dig the following spring, would seem like a good plan. > > > >The real Steve Moore, at Wilson College in Chambersburg PA, is a certified > >John Jeavons instructor and takes a very s-l-o-w approach to that two foot > >deep bed. He says that you should enjoy repeatedly discovering how much of > >your double digging the plants do for you....over the seasons as you dig > >and re-dig your bed. > > > >Your idea of 'volunteer beds' is rather exciting! > > > >Just my two-cents, > > > >Allan Balliett > >BIODYNAMICS Now! > >POB 3047 > >Shepherdstown, WV > >25443 > >(304) 876-2373 > >(815) 550-6067 FAX Forwarding << Please note the new fax number!! >> > > > > > >=================================================================== > > > >SUBSCRIBE to Our Hot Release Information Lists! > > Know the latest releases!! > > Get the BEST prices!! > > > > > >TORI AMOS LIST: igg@igg.com SUBJECT=SUBSCRIBE TORI-L > > You MUST include your FULL NAME and SHIPPING ADDRESS in the body of the > >message > > > >New Arrival/PRe-Order/ SALE Lists: igg@igg.com SUBJECT=SUBSCRIBE IGG-L > > > >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ^^^ > > > >CUSTOMER SERVICE: maura@intrepid.net > > > >Please Check Home Page for latest lists and info! > > > >http://www.igg.com > > > >=================================================================== > >How To Order Information: http://igg.com/howtoorder.html > >How To Pre-Order Information http://igg.com/HowToP.html > >=================================================================== > >INTERGALACTIC GARAGE > >Compact Disks and WorldWide Music Collectibles > >110 West German Street > >POB 3047 > >Shepherdstown, WV 25443 > >(304) 876-6818 / (304) 876-9414 FAX > >Email = igg@igg.com > >HOME PAGE: http://www.igg.com > > -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 22:49:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA16185 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 22:49:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03474; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 22:37:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03087 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 22:34:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp268.cy-net.net [208.21.195.77]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09006 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:36:55 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE6F2A.B1EF1D60@FLYLO>; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:27:57 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE6F2A.B1EF1D60@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: No till versus Double Digging Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:22:53 -0600 Encoding: 21 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 88 I'm already seeing some good examples in a variety of 'patches' around our place. John turned soil several times, and mounded it up into some 'artistic' raised beds. Looks like fine dark loam. I waited awhile and covered it all with spent hay till I was ready to plant in it. I started cabbages and some cutting lettuce and when they were big enough, went out to those beds. But, I had some leftover seedlings I didn't want to waste. So, kind of 'stepped down' in the area beyond the path around the raised beds, I just dug a little hole for each, patted it in, and was careful not to step on them till they took off. With the rains we had last couple of days, raised beds still look dry but the plants they look down on are quite a bit bigger. Granted, if we're going to have a wet year, the things with their feet high and dry stand a better chance, but we've had too many dry summers lately, I'm betting on the flatlander plants doing best this year. In order to keep the ryegrass and early weed crop down, I have been using my old hand sheep shears to 'prune' around the vegetables. Works if I don't want to disturb the feeder roots on the plants I'm trying to get going. These shears really sing while they work but I still wouldn't want to do 50 acre patches with them. The early results of my experiment are we have fairly fertile soil, but it's not nearly as 'deep' as I once supposed. Even turning 4 inches upside down has set the plants back considerably. (martha) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 15 23:15:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA16958 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 23:15:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA06059; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 23:04:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05769 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 23:01:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp268.cy-net.net [208.21.195.77]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA13063 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 22:04:20 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE6F2E.869A7200@FLYLO>; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:55:23 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE6F2E.869A7200@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Al Kapuler Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:54:24 -0600 Encoding: 3 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 89 Afraid I don't have much dialog on the topic of A Kapuler, but I'd love to know more about his trip to Belize. One of my favorite places on Earth! Lived there for quite awhile (pre-goats) of course! (martha) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 00:52:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA19934 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 00:52:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA14688; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 00:34:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA14586 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 00:32:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer - 208.254.229.171 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:34:33 -0800 Message-ID: <003401be6f6e$483a0440$11242599@oemcomputer> From: "Dr. Andrew Lorand" To: Subject: Re: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:31:44 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 90 Dear Colleagues, During the last few years, like many of you, I have been following with grave interest the of GMO's and related biotechnologies. With great concern I have watched the commercialization of insufficiently tested organisms enter the food stream. And I have been applauding the many efforts underway to develop comprehensive testing, manditory labeling, public debate and accountability. May they all succeed! I am also doing my part by making every effort to educate the 250 or so students I teach every semester as to the history, development and current issues surrounding the biotech field. This in itself is no easy task, as the waters are at best muddy. And in our gardens both on the home farm and at the college's farm, we use seeds from only the most carefully selected, at minimum organically certified and almost exclusively from small companies. We make every human effort to use simple, clean plant products. One of the additional questions I carry in all this is what does all this GMO stuff mean spiritually? In other words: what does this biotechnology really mean for the long-term soul and spiritual well-being of humanity? One of the things I have noticed, with all the chemical, genetic, and now biotech interventions, is that they are trying to the secrets of birth and life, maturity and death. Trying to figure them out. Said differently: there seems to be a searching, a kind of tapping in the dark around the great secrets of life, that is . How does life enter into the physical? How is it organized? Can we change it and if so what does this do? This far from being unsophisticated, is however, completely materialistic and mechanical. It is an attempt to something that essentially is not. There is a matrix, a physical-spiritual matrix that allows for the spiritual to enter into the physical. Where the two meet we have life. It is my view, that all this biotech tapping in the dark is designed for much more than merely monopolizing a given cultural plants' gene pool or making huge sums of money - I suspect it has also much to do with discovering the means by which to create life force. Interestingly, I think this has so very much to do with biodynamics. We too are working with the life forces. We too are trying to discover how to at least encourage and work with the life forces and the beings that weave them. Our means of course, are quite different. Just some thoughts Warm regards, Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 01:16:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA20645 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 01:16:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA16881; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 01:05:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA16691 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 01:03:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 5216 invoked from network); 16 Mar 1999 06:05:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 06:05:54 -0000 Received: from jalang (d208.pm6.sonic.net [208.201.229.208]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA04597 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 22:05:53 -0800 X-envelope-info: From: "James Langbecker" To: Subject: RE: No till versus Double Digging Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 22:04:35 -0800 Message-ID: <000101be6f72$de26eb40$d0e5c9d0@jalang.ppp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <002801be6f62$d433df40$f3f2facf@pavilion> Importance: Normal Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 91 > There were a couple guys at the Upper Midwest Organic Conference > selling a solar tractor. Very pricey, but right on! > Parker This possibility really gives new meaning to the saying, "Make hay while the sun shines," doesn't it? James From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 05:00:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA25560 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 05:00:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA01583; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 04:50:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp3.hawaii.rr.com (smtp3.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA01494 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 04:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: apparently from phyl.hawaii.rr.com - 24.94.65.129 by smtp3.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Mon, 15 Mar 1999 23:48:09 -1000 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19691231140000.0104d614@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 23:51:36 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: Calf rearing w/out the mamma Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 92 March 15, 1999 - Hawaii Dear Friends, Does anyone have suggestions about how to salvage a rather funky situation for a special little heifer calf (almost eight weeks old, born 1/19/99) that was taken from its mother immediately after birth and stuffed in a cage in a bank of cages along with hundreds of other calves? She did not fair well with the "bucket" drink it or "the hell with you" approach of the dairy industry and is some what set back in her body weight and development. We've taken her to our farm and are using what seems to be our only option - a milk substitute powder. She was actually nearly born in a better situation. Her mother was naturally bred and pastured during her pregnancy, but was purchased into another dairy as part of a buy out that just happened to coincide with her birth. Any suggestions that might help Monique, "Little Mo", in her journey toward adulthood would be greatly appreciated, especially a source for more organic or BD milk substitutes, etc. Thanks so much, Phyl Dwyer - Proud, but desperate new Dad! pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com =================================================== Please note Phyl Dwyer's new email address =================================================== From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 06:19:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA27085 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 06:19:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA05161; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 06:08:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA05083 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 06:07:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp333.cy-net.net [208.21.195.142]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA06990 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 05:09:36 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE6F69.EF700DE0@FLYLO>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 05:00:39 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE6F69.EF700DE0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Calf rearing w/out the mamma Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 04:58:13 -0600 Encoding: 21 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 93 Hi Phyl; Is Mo drinking at all? There are large calf bottles the 'industry' likes to use, hang them on the cage front and the calf tries to pretend this is Mother. Whole milk would be wonderful, goat even better in this instance, but barring that, you can raise her on the powder crap. Look for a brand that uses milk solids rather than the soya bases, and if she's scouring, dilute the formula a little with extra water. Add honey to it or even some syrup (karo) will give her a little extra energy. If you can handle her at all, try tucking the bottle under your arm so she feels a warm body next to her milk source. Another trick in the bucket method is to let her nurse your fingers, and gradually lower them into the milk. She is chasing the fingers and learns to slurp up the milk around them. This is somewhat tricky, because weaning her OFF fingers and onto the bucket of milk only can be tough. Keep the milk or milk sub slightly warmer than you think is right will often encourage a weak or stubborn calf to nurse, too. A lot of times the dairies just keep cold replacer in front of the calves and some calves will starve themselves before going for it. She's old enough to pick at fine, leafy hay, but I'd try to get her milk stomach on track before developing her rumen. (martha) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 07:28:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA28390 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:28:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA11814; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:17:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from alternatives.com ([204.244.88.165]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA11745 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:16:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from georgiah (unverified [204.244.111.55]) by alternatives.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:01:00 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990316015544.007e9100@mail.alternatives.com> X-Sender: conrad@mail.alternatives.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 01:55:44 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Conrad Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging In-Reply-To: <002801be6f62$d433df40$f3f2facf@pavilion> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 94 >My friend has an Italian >spader that I will check out this season, but what is everyone going to do >when the fossil fuel runs out. > There were a couple guys at the Upper Midwest Organic Conference >selling a solar tractor. Very pricey, but right on! >Parker What about horse, oxen and ploughs? I especially like the spiral ploughs that are described in "living Energies". One of the ploughs was designed to replicate the action of the mole, it is shaped out of opposing spiral knife-edged flutes of silver-plated copper. The other plough is somewhat like a those spiral pasta in shape and has a series of these spirals that roll through the soil. Kindly, Conrad =-= =-= =-= =-= =-= =-= "giv 'er nails" -Saskatchewan slang From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 07:51:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA28973 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:51:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA14359; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:40:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from anat.ncds.net (anat.ncds.net [207.250.242.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA13992 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:37:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from pavilion (p01-13.ffxp.ncds.net [207.250.242.188] (may be forged)) by anat.ncds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7-sp) with SMTP id GAA08149 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 06:41:11 -0600 Message-ID: <001601be6fbb$38dfa160$bcf2facf@pavilion> From: "parker" To: Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 06:40:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 95 Dear Ferdinand- Sorry you had such an awful experience with the burning. Ours here went well, we burned just after the last melting so it was slow and only burned top, not disturbing the mossy layer protecting the soil. From what I have seen around here, burning that initial time( I wouldn't do this again) has produced some incredibly fertile gardens. Unfortunately we probably did kill some beneficial bugs, but if you would have seen this burn, 4 hours for a quarter acre, I believe you would have felt little heat. Our most abundant beneficial bug here is the dragonfly who is morphing in the creek bed right now. We saved the worms. As far as the fossil fuels, I beg to differ on that one, but we shall see my friend. Parker -----Original Message----- From: Ferdinand Vondruska To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 7:18 PM Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging >Dear Parker, >When I was a kid we burned, burned, burned in the garden. Baby Burn, was the >call..... My mother (there she is running again) came out all the time and >doused the fire. Stop, stop, stop was her war cry. Why? > >We were asked to make a study (1955!) and first, we had to smell the air. >Atrocious.Then, we had to look at the carbon build up. She told us it will >remain so for thousands of years and deplete the soil of nutrients. I had no >clue what that meant. Then, we looked at a half burned hedge hog which looked >dreadful and we had to kill it........(never a fire anymore, I thought). And she >pointed out that the small garden life (biobalance she said) woule be upset. We >looked at the water which was as gray as can be. Sticks did not burn properly >and could not be used any longer. Entire bug schools got roasted. The frogs that >made it out of the moss were blown up by the heat. It was a real lesson. And so, >she said: All goes onto the compost. Again 1955 and BD!! Nothing will be burned, >nothing. That's my story, my friend. > >And, one more thing. I don't think that fossil fuel will run out - we are going >to run out of other things first: (again Mama) God had a reason to keep that oil >far below us, it is the blood of the earth, she said. A lot of it. More than you >can ever think of. Blood is a very, very special juice and nobody drinks it >without getting punished (and bang, there went another moskito....). Regards >Ferdinand > >parker wrote: > >> Dear Alan- >> Thank-you so much for your two-cents, worth at least a dime. I think you are >> maybe right about the single dig. patience is a virtue. Those damn tools are >> enough to make anyone gung-ho. We burned yesterday and today and it seemed >> to be the perfect time, a nice little mossy mat protected the soil, and the >> deer trail and our own breaks made beautiful contours in the garden which I >> will leave for the paths. I will stick that big dog of a tool down in there >> a couple times to see what's what, but the potato fork should turn it, >> you're right it seems pretty loose underneath, crossing my fingers about the >> rocks. >> I was working at Coulee Springs Farm in Sparta WI last season and we >> were purely old fashion tractor and rototiller. I wanted to make some double >> dug beds, but my mentor pleaded no time. I was completely unimpressed with >> the soil structure there. It was a beginning BD farm, but a CSA for 6 years. >> Blevins sounds like a thoughtful, patient man. My friend has an Italian >> spader that I will check out this season, but what is everyone going to do >> when the fossil fuel runs out. >> There were a couple guys at the Upper Midwest Organic Conference >> selling a solar tractor. Very pricey, but right on! >> Parker >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Intergalactic Garage >> To: bdnow@envirolink.org >> Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 6:27 AM >> Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging >> >> >>I think it is quite right whoever pointed out that it will be different >> for >> >>different types of farmers. I worked for a heavy production oriented BD >> CSA >> >>farm last season and it became acheingly clear during the May madness that >> >>double-digging would leave the CSA members starving. >> > >> >Parker - was this a start-up CSA? Were these initial double-digs, or what >> >was happening at this BD CSA? (remind me: which BD CSA is this?) >> > >> >But maybe the solution >> >>is to dig parts of your garden each year and slowly phase out the tractor. >> > >> >Like a growing number of BD growers, Bruce Blevins is a champion of the >> >Italian machines. (NOT the Dutch machines) His motto: when you bring the >> >tractor into the garden your main plan has to be how to get the tractor >> >back out of the garden. I believe he plans for three spadings in a two >> >season period. And then it's U-bars from then on. >> > >> >>Like Hugh said after a bed has been double dug once, and turned a couple >> >>more times it becomes much easier to work with. Beds that I dug three >> years >> >>ago only need a quick once over with the fork before planting. This year >> my >> >>partner and I plan to dig a quarter acre in 4 days with two U-bars. >> > >> >IMHO, If you are planning initial digs with u-bars, either you don't really >> >need double- digging, ie your soil is very loose already, or you are going >> >to have a couple of broken u-bars or you just plain aint going to make it. >> >If time is of the essence, a single dig the first year, with good deep >> >rooting cover crops over the winter (and daikon whenever possible otherwise >> >:-), and a double dig the following spring, would seem like a good plan. >> > >> >The real Steve Moore, at Wilson College in Chambersburg PA, is a certified >> >John Jeavons instructor and takes a very s-l-o-w approach to that two foot >> >deep bed. He says that you should enjoy repeatedly discovering how much of >> >your double digging the plants do for you....over the seasons as you dig >> >and re-dig your bed. >> > >> >Your idea of 'volunteer beds' is rather exciting! >> > >> >Just my two-cents, >> > >> >Allan Balliett >> >BIODYNAMICS Now! >> >POB 3047 >> >Shepherdstown, WV >> >25443 >> >(304) 876-2373 >> >(815) 550-6067 FAX Forwarding << Please note the new fax number!! >> >> > >> > >> >=================================================================== >> > >> >SUBSCRIBE to Our Hot Release Information Lists! >> > Know the latest releases!! >> > Get the BEST prices!! >> > >> > >> >TORI AMOS LIST: igg@igg.com SUBJECT=SUBSCRIBE TORI-L >> > You MUST include your FULL NAME and SHIPPING ADDRESS in the body of the >> >message >> > >> >New Arrival/PRe-Order/ SALE Lists: igg@igg.com SUBJECT=SUBSCRIBE IGG-L >> > >> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> ^^^ >> > >> >CUSTOMER SERVICE: maura@intrepid.net >> > >> >Please Check Home Page for latest lists and info! >> > >> >http://www.igg.com >> > >> >=================================================================== >> >How To Order Information: http://igg.com/howtoorder.html >> >How To Pre-Order Information http://igg.com/HowToP.html >> >=================================================================== >> >INTERGALACTIC GARAGE >> >Compact Disks and WorldWide Music Collectibles >> >110 West German Street >> >POB 3047 >> >Shepherdstown, WV 25443 >> >(304) 876-6818 / (304) 876-9414 FAX >> >Email = igg@igg.com >> >HOME PAGE: http://www.igg.com >> > > >-- > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > >C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO >AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD > > FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 09:22:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01380 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:22:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26090; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:11:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from dogbert.ipa.net (dogbert.ipa.net [205.218.170.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25953 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:09:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from steved.ipa.net (pool-143.faye.ipa.net [206.27.222.143]) by dogbert.ipa.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA14995 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:12:32 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36EE6645.CF2@ipa.net> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:10:13 -0600 From: Steve Diver Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Imants spader plow->Humus Management Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 96 BD-NOW Readers, The original thread was No till versus Double digging. In the ensuing discussion, mechanical spaders were mentioned as viable implements at the commercial scale. The following notes on spading implements and humus management is a post I put up on Sanet a couple of weeks ago, which I think you may find useful.... ESPECIALLY since BIODYNAMICS (like any worthwhile organic agriculture system) can also be understood as a HUMUS MANAGEMENT farming system. In other words, where the rubber meets the road, you had better take care of soil humus and all that is associated with that conceptually (deep humus) as well as pragmatically (soil microbes, worms, clay-humus crumb, soil foodweb) or you will end up with a hole in your soil bank, leaking valuable assets to service monthly bills at the front end while falling into a downward spiral of weakened soil health & plant immunity at the tail end. Food for Worms, Steve Diver ======================================================= Sanet Archives Re: Imants spade plow->Humus Management Steve Diver (steved@ncatark.uark.edu) Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:41:43 +0000 Victoria Mundy wrote: > Does anyone have information on the "Imants spade plow"? I've looked on >the databases and can't seem to come up with anything. Ditto a >simple Web search. > > Also, I'm trying to find contact information for a gentleman named >Carroll Montgomery, who is, or at least was in 1994, an agricultural >consultant with the Christian Agriculture Stewardship Institute> > > Any help would be appreciated. Thank you! > > Victoria Mundy Hi Victoria, Here are contacts the main spader dealers in the U.S. (I will gladly take contacts for other dealers if anybody has any): Autrusa Compost/Imants U.S.A. [George Leidig] P.O. Box 1133 Blue Bell, PA 19422 610-825-2973 autrusa@aol.com http://www.autrusa.com ----U.S. distributor for Imants Spaders, Sandberger Compost Turners, ----and Top Tex Compost Fleece Imants web site in The Netherlands http://www.imants.com/ Market Farm Implements [Ralph Moore] 257 Fawn Hollow Road Friedans, PA 15541 814-443-1931 ----Distributor for multiple brands of spaders and market ----garden/truck farming vegetable production implements Ferrari Tractor C.I.E. [Eugene Canales] PO Box 1045 Gridley, CA 95948 916-846-6401 916-846-0390 Fax ----U.S. distributor for Celli, Torteli, etc brands of European ----spaders. Ferrari Tractor C.I.E. -- like its counterpart Market ----Farm Implements on the East -- carries a wide assortment of ----small-farm equipment. Spaders available as attachments to ----walk-behind tractors or regular pull-type tractors. Here is the contact for Carroll Montgomery and Christian Agriculture Stewardship Institute (CASI): Christian Agriculture Stewardship Institute (CASI) Rt. 1, Box 364 Dexter, MO 63841 314-624-3709 314-624-4391 Fax CASI Publications: "God's Stewards... Caring for His Soil" "Alternatives for American Agriculture: CASI Soil Analysis Training" "Alternatives That Few Consider" "Why We Do Have Weeds and Grass" Soil management tidbits, a spader story: Fyi, at the 1995 Acres USA conference there was an interesting presentation by M.R. Foulks, who is the largest organic soybean grower in Virginia. He discussed his organic production system, and presented data on soil health improvements through the adaption of innovative soil management practices. The Foulks had attended some of the controlled microbial composting and humus management practices taught in seminars in Pennsylvania by the Siegfried Luebke family of Austria, hosted by George Liedig of Autrusa Compost. The CMC Compost-Humus Mgm't System emphasizes specialized compost turners, microbial inoculation, clay additions, frequent turning, daily monitoring for temperature and CO2, compost fleece to cover and protect the windrow, and qualitative testing for finished compost. Promotion of clay-humus crumb formation and a microbially-rich compost is a primary goal. Coupled with CMC compost, emphasis is placed at the farm level on a whole series of well-known organic agricultural practices that promote soil health, soil humus, soil biology, soil tilth, soil fertility etc. These include crop rotations, cover crops, green manures, microbially-inoculated composts, sod rotations mixed with crop rotations, grazing, urine, etc. "Humus management" encompasses these soil-enhancing organic farming practices along with the deep humus knowledge from the organic pioneeers: Efrenfried Pfeiffer, Sir Albert Howard, Lady Eve Balfour, as well as the microbial-humus scientists like Selman Waksman of Rutgers University and the Russian scientiests Kononova and Krasilnikov, among others. This is where the spader comes into the picture. In addition to the cover cropping and compost applications, choice of tillage implement can make a big difference in soil tilth and humus content. The Luebkes found that spading implements are superior as a humus management tool in vegetable production, especially in comaparison to tillers etc. At the Acres conference, M.R. Foulks presented the following data on humus values based on early adoption of large-sized spading implements for agronomic crop production in the U.S. The humus value is the sodium hydroxide colorimetric humus value test. Humus Value Humus Value Soil Depth Chisel Plow/Disc Spader 0-3" 14 20 3-6" 7 15 9-12" 7 18 The data shows that tillage implement alone can affect soil conditions that favor microbial populations, and their ability to humify soil organic matter from crop residues, cover crops, and composts. Steve Diver To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 09:51:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01842 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:51:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29730; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:41:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from sarnia.xcelco.on.ca (sar-alpha.xcelco.on.ca [209.167.188.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA29369 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:38:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from haggerty (modem-104.xcelco.on.ca [205.206.216.104]) by sarnia.xcelco.on.ca (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA14867 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:39:53 GMT From: "Ken, Jean Huffman" To: Subject: Re: agsyn.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:45:51 -0800 Message-ID: <01be6ab0$e017d840$76d8cecd@haggerty> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 97 I agrree on hundred percent jean >Dear Allan, >My suggestion is to ignore Greg Willis as best you can, failing that send >him some loving compassion energy through the ethers. This will do more to >calm things down than to respond to his virulent litigious nature. Having >been on the very personal receiving end of his public vitriolic attacks >more than once last year, both publicly and privately I can assure you that >my lesson learned is that to engage with such energy is to engage an >equally invested part of oneself to maintain that energy. > >Disengage and stay centered in loving compassion rather than rousing the >spiritual warrior within. There are much more worthy and important battles >to be waged. > >Regards, >Jane Sherry > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 10:05:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02141 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:05:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00807; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:47:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00628 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:46:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d144.infoserve.net [199.175.157.144]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA27316 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 06:51:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003c01be6fbc$2a166c80$909dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 06:46:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 98 Dear Andrew and bdnowers, From one aspect, GMO's is a part of hygienic, eugenic and mechanical occultism. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Dr. Andrew Lorand To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 9:44 PM Subject: Re: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives >Dear Colleagues, > >During the last few years, like many of you, I have been following with >grave interest the of GMO's and related biotechnologies. With >great concern I have watched the commercialization of insufficiently tested >organisms enter the food stream. And I have been applauding the many efforts >underway to develop comprehensive testing, manditory labeling, public debate >and accountability. May they all succeed! I am also doing my part by making >every effort to educate the 250 or so students I teach every semester as to >the history, development and current issues surrounding the biotech field. >This in itself is no easy task, as the waters are at best muddy. And in our >gardens both on the home farm and at the college's farm, we use seeds from >only the most carefully selected, at minimum organically certified and >almost exclusively from small companies. We make every human effort to use >simple, clean plant products. > >One of the additional questions I carry in all this is what does all this >GMO stuff mean spiritually? In other words: what does this biotechnology > really mean for the long-term soul and spiritual well-being of >humanity? > >One of the things I have noticed, with all the chemical, genetic, and now >biotech interventions, is that they are trying to the secrets of >birth and life, maturity and death. Trying to figure them out. Said >differently: there seems to be a searching, a kind of tapping in the dark >around the great secrets of life, that is . How does life >enter into the physical? How is it organized? Can we change it and if so >what does this do? This far from being unsophisticated, is >however, completely materialistic and mechanical. It is an attempt to > something that essentially is not. > >There is a matrix, a physical-spiritual matrix that allows for the spiritual >to enter into the physical. Where the two meet we have life. It is my view, >that all this biotech tapping in the dark is designed for much more than >merely monopolizing a given cultural plants' gene pool or making huge sums >of money - I suspect it has also much to do with discovering the means by >which to create life force. > >Interestingly, I think this has so very much to do with biodynamics. We too >are working with the life forces. We too are trying to discover how to at >least encourage and work with the life forces and the beings that weave >them. Our means of course, are quite different. > >Just some thoughts > >Warm regards, >Andrew > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 10:07:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02213 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:07:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01824; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:53:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01576 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:52:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.26]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:55:40 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:54:38 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Lauren, the CSA bounces back--could you forward this message? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 99 To: mesa@hooked.net, csa-l@prairienet.org, csa-1@prairienet.org Please post the following on your list serve immediately. We wish to fill this position immediatley. ________ Farmer-Manager Position Laganza Farm is seeking an experienced farmer familiar with organic and preferably biodynamic methods to farm and further develop an existing 20-acre organic orchard and farm. Work can begin immediately. The farmer would also be involved in working with and servicing a CSA through networking in the nearby Temecula and Laguna Beach communities. Laganza farm, established in l989 and located in Aguanga in southern Riverside County, is CCOF and Demeter organic-certified; and in process of full demeter biodynamic certification. Some ll00 trees (more than 20 varieties of apple plus peach, pear, almond and cherry) and several hundred grape vines comprise the farm; a small vegetable garden with plans for expansion; and a one-acre field for vegetables with possibilities of expansion as well, and the orchard could also be expanded. The farm is a demonstration site and field station for the EOS Institute and Permaculture Institute of Southern California which conduct workshops in accordance with the implementation of their comprehensive permaculture plan which envisages an expanded vegetable and herb farming, and other projects. Two to four interns or apprendices are expected to work during the season. Housing is available on site, funds for food and living and for some farm investment are available through outside grants, but the livelihood of the farmer will ultimately be dependent on his/ her production and marketing through a CSA and existing wholesale and farmers markets. An application letter, resume of experience, and at least two references should be mailed to , Laganza Farm, c/o Eos Institute, Laguna Beach CA 92652. For more information call 949-497-2218 or 949-497-4401. We desire to fill this position immediately. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 10:07:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02222 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01899; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from sarnia.xcelco.on.ca (sar-alpha.xcelco.on.ca [209.167.188.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01577 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:52:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from haggerty (modem-104.xcelco.on.ca [205.206.216.104]) by sarnia.xcelco.on.ca (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA15819 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:53:25 GMT From: "Ken, Jean Huffman" To: Subject: Practical Stock Doctor Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 21:40:44 -0800 Message-ID: <01be6ab8$8b3cd8e0$76d8cecd@haggerty> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 100 I have in my possession a very old book entitled "THE PRACTICAL STOCK DOCTOR" 'The Farmers' Short Courses in Live Stock. Published as a text book by F.B. Dickerson Company copyrighted 1904,1908,1912,and 1920.It is absolutely phenomenal in it's scope and in addition uses almost exclusively herbal, mineral and or folk type remedies for all illness and diseases as well as a complete list of "symptoms" for common disorders. My dilemma is this; as the book is old I am hesitant to continue thumbing through it's pages for fear of its emminent disintegration. I will not use an updated version as it would be contaminated with antibiotic thinking. I wish to maintain the information without destrying the book. Any suggestions on how to save this information? Any body feeling up to the job? Holding an international treasure and not sure wht to do with it! Jean From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 10:11:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02320 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:11:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02821; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:59:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02407 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:56:47 -0500 (EST) From: MCDOUGO@aol.com Received: from MCDOUGO@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hDPOa08602 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:58:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:58:30 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: OFF:Richard Alan Miller Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 101 In a message dated 3/14/99 1:43:09 PM, you wrote: >Please let me know if you've taken a workshop or attended a lecture by >herbalist Richard Alan Miller. > >Thank you, > >-Allan Balliett >igg@igg.com Allan, he spoke at the first Acres Conference East, 12 - 14 years ago, in Carlisle PA. He talked about how farmers can grow herbs on a few acres, & make more money per acre than growing field crops. I really don't remember much more than that; it was a long time ago....Doug Britt. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 10:12:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02332 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:12:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02912; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:59:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02417 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp331.cy-net.net [208.21.195.140]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25276 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:59:25 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE6F8A.04750360@FLYLO>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:50:18 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE6F8A.04750360@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: OFF: Texas Catalyst Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:49:15 -0600 Encoding: 19 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 102 I have been asked a few times to create a usegroup for Texans. Organic Gardening, where to buy seed and plants that do well in our many climates, anything a Texan might want to discuss. I know the cities have area discussion groups, but they fall short. I want folk to be able to access the group for stuff like, what can I plant that does well in Cen E Tex in the way of peaches? I discovered an organic garden center in a small town and want to share that with someone who might make use of it... things like this. Right now, it's only one little page, but I'm working on pg 2 for members to put up their own webpages, some photos, and other information they'd like to share. Also about to go for a domain name for flylo, so the site address will be easier to navigate to, too. If you know a Texan who might be remotely interested, please forward this message! Thanks, (martha) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html Sorry this is so off topic for this list, but if you're on OGL, Sanet, or SQFT you'll be seeing it there, too. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 10:22:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02613 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:22:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04416; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:11:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04062 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:09:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.14]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:12:50 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:11:48 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: request for farm/garden info on Connecticut Message-ID: <795CC95216B0A91F8525673600535FD3.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 103 Is there anyone on the list who lives in Connecticut close to the NY border? If so, could you contact me privately? Thanks, Jane From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 10:28:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02737 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:28:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05305; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:17:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04961 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.24]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:19:18 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:18:16 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Practical Stock Doctor Message-ID: <35FB5181EB74EE0C8525673600538FF4.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 104 <> Try and find an archival book binder in your area. Look under archival supplies in the yellow pages, or contact a good reputable art supply store or art school with bookmaking or drawing courses and someone there should be able to help steer you toward someone who can repair the book, possibly saving it. Failing that, there is always scanning, which unless the book is formatted in single columns, it is my experience that ocr scanners leave much to be desired! It may not be worth the effort, finding xeroxing more direct. In the meantime, buy an archival folder or box to store the book in until you do decide what to do. You can find those also at art supply stores or photography shops. Good luck! Jane Sherry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 11:45:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04851 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:45:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20600; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:34:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.frontiercoop.com (mail.frontiercoop.com [208.130.190.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19903 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:30:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from erica.renaud.frontiercoop.com (ERICA.RENAUD [172.16.10.152]) by mail.frontiercoop.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-37991U200L2S100) with SMTP id AAA952 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:33:00 -0600 Date: 16 Mar 99 10:32:51 -0600 From: Erica Renaud Subject: soil testing To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" X-Mailer: QuickMail Pro 1.5.3b3 (Windows32) X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Message-ID: <19990316163300646.AAA952@erica.renaud.frontiercoop.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA19911 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 105 To bd subscribers, I wanted to know if anyone could provide me with some feedback concerning soil analysis. We, at the organic farm where I work, submitted three soil samples to three different soil testing laboratories. One of the laboratories where we sent a sample was Woodsend. I understand that this soils lab is highly supported by biodynamic growers and I wanted to know why? In addition, I wanted to know what makes their analysis most appropriate to biodynamic growers? It appears to me that their analysis is very thorough, perhaps more than all of the other laboratories we submitted samples to. I would appreciate any comments that would help me make a more thorough assessment of the results provided. Thank you, Erica Erica N.C. Renaud Organic Research Farm, Research Specialist Frontier Natural Products Co-op (319) 227 - 7996 ext.1373 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 13:43:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA08615 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:43:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15309; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:32:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from sarnia.xcelco.on.ca (sar-alpha.xcelco.on.ca [209.167.188.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14741 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:29:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from haggerty (modem-104.xcelco.on.ca [205.206.216.104]) by sarnia.xcelco.on.ca (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id SAA03894 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:30:50 GMT From: "Ken, Jean Huffman" To: Subject: Re:OFF:our litttle garden Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:30:51 -0800 Message-ID: <01be6ff4$44ef7640$68d8cecd@haggerty> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 106 we make our way through the fast, we need to think about the ways we tend God's garden through our everyday lives. Here's the crop we should sow: Plant three rows of squash: 1. Squash gossip 2. Squash criticism 3. Squash indifference Plant seven rows of peas: 1. Prayer 2. Promptness 3. Perseverance 4. Politeness 5. Preparedness 6. Purity 7. Patience Plant seven heads of lettuce: 1. Let us read the Holy Writings 2. Let us have boundless energy for the tasks ahead 3. Let us be obedient to God's Will for this day 4. Let us be truthful 5. Let us love one another 6. Let us be unselfish and loyal 7. Let us be faithful to duty And lastly, no garden is complete without turnips: 1. Turn up for Feast/church/mass etc. 2. Turn up for teaching/service activities 3. Turn up with a smile, even when things are difficult 4. Turn up with determination to do your best in God's service. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 14:50:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA10315 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:50:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01303; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:39:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00166 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:34:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.174] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.174]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.11.13.11.10) with ESMTP id <0F8P00F5I7JTY8@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:36:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:52:29 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: organic Soybean production In-reply-to: <128AA3E719B9@agecon.uga.edu> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 References: <36E96792.B80475D0@direct.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA00184 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 107 >Hola Guillermo, > >I just want to pass along a possible source of information to you on >organic soybeans. I happen to know that Tom Reynolds of OCIA-VA is >involved with organic soybeans (I think he may grow as well as >export) and he is friendly (though he seemed a little strange to me >the first time I talked to him, he turned out to be quite open and >helpful with information) and he might be able to help you. His >phone at OCIA-Virginia is 757-851-9463. The last time he and I >talked he told me that the bumber soybean crop in Brazil had made the >soybean market pretty dismal in general these days (for suppliers, >that is!). > >Hasta luego, >Anita > > >Anita Graf >313-F Conner Hall >Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics >University of Georgia >Athens, GA 30602-7509 >(706) 542-1915 phone >(706) 542-0739 fax >agraf@agecon.uga.edu Hola Anita y Gracias por la información: Estoy en un grupo que esta evaluando la factibilidad de establecer una planta de procesamiento de soya (para alimentación humana) en la región. Doing a search in my books and in the internet, very little showed about organic soybean production, so that I will give Tom a ring. Many thanks I know that soybean and soymeal markets are very competitive, but what I am proposing to do, is to develop the plant organic suppliers within the region, instead of buying the US "cheaper" exports. At one time in my life I was a true believer in the comparative advantage argument, but after years of practical experience and seeing what o neoliberal policy has done to my country, I strongly support any local endevour before going global. I guess making things organic and serving a small market, is a good excuse not to have such good numbers in our financial plans. Where I live is an important rice region, so I was wondering if soya could be an associated crop, any ideas ? Regards and thanks again. Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 15:11:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA10784 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:11:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06855; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:01:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from rtfm.midcoast.com (root@dns.midcoast.com [206.26.226.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05741 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:57:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from jpt (liberty-c-018.midcoast.com [208.153.20.118]) by rtfm.midcoast.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA02403 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:00:14 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990316144417.007e0720@midcoast.com> X-Sender: stgeorge@midcoast.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:44:17 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "John P. Thomas and Kathleen Barrett" Subject: Re: etheric forces and teeth In-Reply-To: <36EC864F.D811C26A@direct.ca> References: <36EC0DDC.78F3@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 108 RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY #640, March 4, 1999 on the topic of CHLORINE CHEMISTRY NEWS has interesting info about teeth. Its another answer to the question about why the teeth are not developing properly. These findings also cause me to think about animal health since exposure could be from airborne sources which settle down on all farms regardless of their management practices. John St. George Farm Freedom, Maine, USA . . . "Last December, the federal Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) in Atlanta published the long-awaited final report, TOXICOLOGICAL PROFILE FOR CHLORINATED DIBENZO-P-DIOXINS.[4] The report had been circulating in draft form since 1991. In the final report, ATSDR establishes a Minimum Risk Level (MRL) for chronic (long-term) exposure to dioxin. An MRL is the amount of total dioxins (expressed as TEQs) that ATSDR believes people can take in day after day without suffering adverse health effects. ATSDR's official MRL for chronic (long-term) exposure to dioxin is one picogram of dioxin TEQ per kilogram of body weight per day.[4,pg.264] The new ATSDR report says that the average exposure of U.S. citizens is currently three to six times as high as this "safe" level.[4,pg.253] (A picogram is one trillionth of a gram, and there are 28 grams in one ounce.) Thus ATSDR gives us reason to wonder whether people are being harmed at current background levels of dioxin. Shortly after ATSDR released its final dioxin report, a new study was published showing that some people have defective teeth as a result of exposure to current background levels of dioxin.[5] The new study was conducted by dentists in Finland who have been studying dioxin for a decade. In the early 1980s, they noticed that many children had poorly developed molars -- discolored and soft. The normal hard enamel coating was partially missing, making the teeth subject to decay. The researchers hypothesized that the children were being exposed to some toxin early in life and this was interfering with normal growth and development of their teeth. Chinese children born to mothers who were accidentally exposed to high levels of dioxins showed tooth problems similar to those in Finnish children.[6] Taking this as a clue, the Finnish dentists began exposing rats to low levels of dioxin. They found that they could produce the same kind of tooth defects in the rats that had been seen in the Chinese and Finnish children.[7] Next they studied 102 Finnish children, ages 6 to 7, whose mother's breast milk had been tested for dioxins when the children were four weeks old. Seventeen of the 102 children (16.6%) had soft, mottled molars, with insufficient enamel to protect the teeth from decay. If a tooth fails to develop a proper enamel coating, the tooth is subject to decay for the rest of the person's life because enamel never develops later. The Finnish study found that children with the worst teeth were born to mothers with the highest levels of dioxin in their breast milk, thus establishing a dose-response relationship." The researchers examined PCBs separately from the other dioxins and dioxin-like compounds and they found that the PCBs did not contribute to the children's tooth problems. The Finnish researchers' new findings "are very exciting in a scientific sense--and very concerning in a public-health sense--because they demonstrate effects from [dioxin] exposures at background levels," says Linda Birnbaum, a well-known dioxin researcher with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA).[8] According to ATSDR, many people in the U.S. and elsewhere have dioxin exposures that exceed the average. These include:[4,pgs.485-497] ** People who are exposed at work, or through environmental contamination, such as people living in Times Beach, Missouri; ** People living near incinerators that are burning municipal, medical or hazardous wastes, or people living downwind from coal-burning power plants; ** People living near any of the 110 Superfund sites where dioxins have been identified. (Superfund sites are chemically-contaminated places that the federal government has identified as dangerous to human health.) ** Sport fishers in the Great Lakes regions are very likely to have high exposure to dioxin, with Lake Huron the highest, Lake Michigan next highest, and Lake Erie the lowest. ** Currently 66 fish advisories have been issued by 21 states because of dioxin-contaminated fish. Three states -- New York, New Jersey, and Maine -- have statewide fish advisories in effect for all of their marine coastal waters, warning people to limit the amount of fish they eat because of dioxin contamination. ** Many indigenous people eat far more fish than the average. Under these circumstances, even low levels of dioxin contamination in fish can add up to a hazard. ** Subsistence farmers who consume their own farm-reared meat and dairy products may be highly exposed if they live downwind from an incinerator or a metal refinery or other source of dioxins. ** People eating food grown on soil treated with sewage sludge may be in danger. ATSDR says, "Exposure to [dioxin] from land application of municipal sewage sludge or paper mill sludge also can occur through the dietary pathway if people consume food grown or animals grazed on sludge-amended lands."[4,pg.497] And: "Most recently, MacLachlan... reported that the prolonged use of sewage sludge as a soil amendment on English farms under some conditions can lead to an increase in the concentrations of [dioxins] in both the soil and in cow's milk."[4,pg.497]" . . . From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 15:27:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA11110 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:27:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10582; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:16:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10237 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:15:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.26]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:19:23 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:18:10 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Millet Message-ID: <4B34B8460B62ABC485256736006F7BB4.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 109 Does anyone on the list have experience with growing millet? Thanks, Jane From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 15:35:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA11298 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:35:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12732; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:25:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from virtu.sar.usf.edu (virtu.sar.usf.edu [131.247.152.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12446 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:24:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jnoon@localhost) by virtu.sar.usf.edu (8.8.7/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA29082 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:13:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:13:33 -0500 (EST) From: "Jessica Noon (SAR)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: unsubscribe In-Reply-To: <36EC956F.4BDD@ipa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 110 unsubcribe bdnow jnoon@virtu.sar.usf.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 15:59:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA11951 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:59:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24448; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:13:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23948 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:11:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max4-2.stc.net [208.210.132.130]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA20477 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:13:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231140000.0104d614@pop-server> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:53:28 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Calf rearing w/out the mamma Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 111 Any suggestions that might help Monique, "Little Mo", in her journey toward adulthood would be greatly appreciated, especially a source for more organic or BD milk substitutes, etc. Thanks so much, Phyl Dwyer - Proud, but desperate new Dad! pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com Phil, There can be several reasons a calf does not do well with the dairy industry regimen. Parasites, swallowing objects, etc. One of the worst of these is scours, which can result from the calf, which usually is fed only twice a day and thus gets very hungry, drinking too much milk at a feeding. The milk then overflows into the intestines before it is digested, thus setting up a ferment that scours the calf ultimately bringing about death by way of dehydration. The cure is to give frequent small feedings much as the calf would get were she on her mama in pasture. You can also offer the calf free choice water in a trough or anything except the feeding bucket for milk and free choice dry feed such as a calf starter formula. A calf of 8 weeks won't get by on pasture and hay, but it helps to have a bit of this too. Live yogurt can dry up the scours, and a pinch of BD barrel compound and BD 500 in the dry feed can help too. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "If you want what visible reality can give, you're an employee. If you want the unseen world, you're not living your truth. Both wishes are foolish, but you'll be forgiven for forgetting that what you really want is love's confusing joy." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 16:38:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA13098 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:38:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25731; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:27:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA25143 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:24:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.009E5190@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:26:39 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 16 Mar 99 16:26:36 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 16 Mar 99 16:26:10 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:26:03 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: organic Soybean production Priority: normal References: <128AA3E719B9@agecon.uga.edu> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <12A4F7A70BC0@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id QAA25152 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 112 Hola Guillermo y de nada, es un placer poder compartir info. I wish you luck in your endeavor. I think that creating local markets for local goods is the best kind of "development" work that can be done. I went through the same sort of thought evolution of the neolibral trade issue. When I worked in the DR, I met a bd farmer/entrepenuer named Cristof Meir (ever heard of him?) who does a fantastic job of making markets for the local farmers for the export of tropical fruits (bananas mostly). He has a big farm himself, but besides that, he has a packing and shipping operation. He also is able to do a great job of promoting organic at the same time. (I've come to believe that it's really the only viable way to promote organics, especially in the developing countries). When you ask if rice can be "associated" with soy, do you mean inter-cropped or rotationally cropped? I'm guessing that it would be good for rotation since isn't soya leguminous? There are plenty of organic rice producers. Lundgren Family Farms in California comes to mind. Well, best of luck to you on your project, y dime como sale la conversacion con Tom. Anita > > Hola Anita y Gracias por la información: > > Estoy en un grupo que esta evaluando la factibilidad de establecer una planta de procesamiento de soya (para alimentación humana) en la región. Doing a search in my books and in the internet, very l> > I know that soybean and soymeal markets are very competitive, but what I am proposing to do, is to develop the plant organic suppliers within the region, instead of buying the US "cheaper" exports. > > Where I live is an important rice region, so I was wondering if soya could be an associated crop, any ideas ? > > Regards and thanks again. > > Guillermo Romero I. > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 17:40:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15551 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:40:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24591; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:13:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24013 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:11:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max4-2.stc.net [208.210.132.130]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA20502 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:13:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990315220048.11514.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:47:36 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD No-till Is Different (Long) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 113 >Hey all, > It's easy to get into black and white thinking about tilling, >but from my reading and experience, it seems that one method alone is >not adequate. The rodales organic gardening book talks about the >positive value of no-till for several years, but how eventually the >soil needs aeration. How about the idea of monitoring the soil and >tilling in OM after several years of no-till, when the soil could use >the additioon of more air. Observation and real decisioon-making >always beat the 'program' approach. That's why i monitor the BD list, >because of the astute observatioons! Bruce Ritchi Dear Bruce, all, I doubt very seriously if Rodale or any other organic no-till research used the BD Preps, let alone a Cosmic Pipe to broadcast them. I also doubt if a lawn mower was used to feed the finished growth to earthworms, let alone perceiving that earthworms could be the best of soil aeration devices. I have and can tell you my experiences. It was about 14 years ago on a nearly barren, hard packed clay hillside in Atlanta. The hillside, in addition to being hard packed infertile clay, was way to steep for tillage. It had to be done no-till or it would have simply washed down the street. The most important things about this experiment were taking a holistic view towards establishing a rich ecology, timing my sowing and mowing activities so as to maximize both plant growth and digestion, and above all getting the forces of the BD preps established and working well. Were I to do this again I'd incorporate Greg Willis' new BD prep, Horn Clay, (more on this when I lfind the time) but everything else I'd pretty much keep the same. Here's the story: Starting From (hard to) Scratch During the early part of l985 I worked on a bridge complex in Marietta, near Atlanta. My co-worker, Adama rented me her basement, and with it the yard. The back yard was shaded, but with a few spots where the soil was decent. The front yard had been bulldozed, was steep, with hard-packed red clay and hardly anything living, even an ant. It barely supported a few tufts of grass and some scraggly bushes. Starting the Project On the positive side, the lot was nearly an acre. The house sat on the hilltop a little back from the middle, and the front slope caught good sun. There was nearly two thirds of a ton of compost which I had started the previous year for Adama with a truckload of oak and poplar bark and some cow manure. Back when I first built the pile I used Dr. Pfeiffer's Quick Composting Compound, which contained the BD preps. But, for several months no earthworms appeared. I began to suspect none were in the area. Finally I brought a jar of earthworms to Atlanta from Blairsville, and that got the pile working. Adama and I worked forty to fifty hours a week, and our jobs were not easy. Monday morning I would pick her up and drive to work. We got back close to dark. We both fixed meals and she had her three-year-old son to take care of. Usually I washed the sawdust and concrete off and worked at my typewriter. I did not have much energy for the yard. Then it was up again at five for another day of bridge construction. My paycheck barely met the bills at the Institute. Fridays, after I dropped Adama off, I headed back to Blairsville, 125 miles away. So, there was little money or energy to put into the yard, but I wanted to see what I could do. My biggest advantage was having tools, seeds, plants and animals, as well as knowing where the cheapest materials were. The first thing I brought down was eighteen bales of old hay, cut late and full of seeds. Not good feed hay, but just the thing to mulch a barren hillside. Then I brought my mower to town, though scarcely anything needed mowing besides some vines near the borders and one lush patch near the water meter. Working in the evening just before dark, I stirred and sprayed a one acre unit of barrel compost; and sowed rye, wheat, crimson clover and sweet clove; into the scattered mulch of hay. The following week I applied BD 500, and a few weeks later, BD 50l. Encouraging Life Near the house where the slope was gentle, I marked off four little forty-inch-wide beds following the contour. I put the compost from the backyard pile on the lower two beds, and dusted the other two with wood ashes. The soil was hard to dig. I spent twelve hours and barely did an adequate job. Double digging was out of the question. Wanting to get more of an earthworm reservoir established in the front yard and put some life in the soil, I brought some wormy compost from Blairsville and scattered it around the scraggly azaleas up against the house. Then I mulched the bushes with bags of oak leaves off the street. Acorns in the leaves attracted a family of squirrels which worked the mulch over, and manured it. I scattered sunflower seeds on the hillside for the birds to eat, and shredded leaves with the lawnmower to start another compost pile. In the back yard I planted bamboo as well as peppermint, stinging nettle and comfrey patches. In the more promising spots I planted daffodils, irises and other flowers. I took two soil samples, one from the beds that got the compost, and one from the mulched hillside. The slope, with the grains and clovers, had a pH of 4.8 and low fertility in every category except potassium. The beds with the compost had a pH of 5.8 and somewhat more nutrients. For boron, which was deficient, I dusted a half box of borax on the front yard for a first application. The slope needed dolomitic lime and I had an old pile on the farm, so I scraped up a couple hundred pounds to scatter on the worst areas. The Doves A flock of doves found the wheat and rye seed under the mulch, eating it and manuring. I had to sow it down twice more before there was enough growing to make a stand. In the composted beds I planted potatoes, onions, garlic, spinach, lettuce and beets, and in the wood ashed beds I planted peas. This may sound like a lot of work, but I had my priorities in order and I averaged only thirty minutes or so after work three or four days a week. The biggest chore was digging the beds, which I did on a day when work was called off on the bridge. My only real error was building the new compost pile in the back yard where the previous one had been, requiring more wheelbarrowing. I had a couple stands of bees in Blairsville, and I brought one down for the garden. I also brought a couple of rabbit hutches, with rabbits, to provide manure for compost piles. The potatoes did well. They also bloomed, setting little green fruits full of seeds, which I collected to grow out the next year. The onions and lettuce were small, but they were perfectly healthy. The peas were truly superior with incredibly sweet pods. Tomatoes of every kind volunteered, along with a couple huge watermelons. The rye on the slope grew to nearly eighteen inches by May, and it made three or four seeds to the head. This was pitiful, but, in all fairness, it was a tenfold improvement over the sparse grass of the year before. The clover germinated and grew, but it was dwarfed, except in the most heavily limed areas. At the end of April the bridge job was finished and we were laid off. I visited only occasionally. In June I sowed buckwheat and soybeans on the slope, mowing off the rye. The doves ate almost all the soybeans and half the buckwheat. The remaining buckwheat grew to sixteen inches and, like the rye, made three or four grains per stalk. I mixed up another batch of soybeans, popcorn and mud, hoping to baffle the doves. They ate most of the popcorn, but the soybeans sprouted and grew. Along with the soybeans a volunteer crop of ragweed took over, getting a little nitrogen from the soybeans, which were inoculated with Rhizobium japonicum, for nitrogen fixation. The ragweed reached six feet tall and bloomed in September. Of course, I sprayed BD preps, applying them four times during this period. With the ragweeds so tall I could envision the progress made underground by their roots. The soil started to loosen up. I brought a truckload of quarry dust from Blairsville in September, and sowed rye, sweet clover, turnips and rape along with various odds and ends. I mowed everything flat, broadcasting the quarry dust on top to sift down through the mulch, and spraying everything down again with BD preps. Rain gave me a break, and the seeds sprouted before the doves could eat them. The former desert became the greenest yard on Avon street. The bee hive made four gallons of honey, and the fall collards at the top of the hill--where the peas had been--were tiny, but good. The turnips in the rye cover on the hillside got no bigger than my thumb. The fall celery and spinach were also a disappointment. But, it was not bad for a first-year garden in a former barren waste. At least everything survived and grew, even the herbs, daffodils, irises, and bamboo. On the Way In 1986 I visited Adama in March and planted potatoes, peas, onions, and collards, changing locations in the beds. Where previously it had taken twelve hours to dig the beds, now it took only two. The compost pile, however, was again inadequate. To remedy this I brought pickup loads of quarry dust, oak bark and commercial laying house manure from Blairsville, making a compost pile at the top of the garden. In April much of the slope was still acid and poor, so I brought nine hundred pounds of lime from Blairsville along with a couple bushels of compost. This evened out the growth of the rye and clover so that by the end of May there was a four foot high, waving field with full heads of grain. In early June I brought another bee colony down, dividing hives and taking the divisions back to Blairsville for two weeks so the colonies would stay separated. I mowed the rye down on top of a broadcast sowing of Laredo soybeans, a hay variety. I also scattered a couple handfuls of pumpkin seeds, and without any tillage I laid out rows of corn in the stubble across the contour of the slope. On top of the corn seed I mounded strips of compost an inch or two high and five or six inches wide. Everything came up. Of course, it helped that the rye mulch was a quarter of an inch deep. A soil test showed the pH of the slope was up to 5.2, and fertility levels had more than doubled in every department except potassium, which was already good. A Cosmic Pipe and Basic "H" I planted a homemade version of Galen Hieronymus' Cosmic Pipe, built on a design Paul Esch of Douglasville, Georgia gave me. This is a device used to broadcast environmental energies, and I used it to strengthen the effects of my biodynamic preparations. I also sprayed the whole front slope down with a dilute solution of Shaklee's Basic "H" to help flush toxins out of the soil since the slope faced a busy thoroughfare. Basic "H" reduces the surface tension of water, making it "wetter," and I believed this would also assure better access to minerals for the plants. But, it was dry, and the topsoil was still very thin. Adama had to water to get the growth started. The soybeans formed an ocean of vines. The corn and bean thinnings made good rabbit feed. The pumpkins grew huge vines, though their fruits did not mature before I sowed and mowed my rye, clover, turnip and rape mixture again in early September. The corn got six feet tall and made respectable ears, which the rabbits enjoyed. There was only one problem. The jungle of growth proved a haven for neighborhood rats, and two separate attempts to get male cats to make this home failed. This led to planting the winter cover crop and mowing the corn and soybeans in early September, as rats were not welcome members of the ecology. Success This time the no-till rye, clover, turnip and rape grew luxuriantly. The turnips were big as my fist and sweeter even than on the farm in Blairsville. The corn and soybean clippings made more than half an inch of mulch. Where the latest pea patch was, I planted celery, broccoli and cabbages, in order to rotate from soil building legumes to heavy feeding leaf crops. I built new hutches for the rabbits, which had matured and needed separation. The turnip and rape yields in the no-till rye on the slope were each nearly five bushels. The bees spent their efforts drawing out comb wax in their new boxes, and since it takes nine pounds of honey to make one pound of wax there was no honey crop. From the original backyard compost site Adama and I moved four volunteer peach trees out to the edge of the front slope near the bees. An especially good volunteer apple tree was left to become permanent at the end of one of the beds. A December soil test showed the pH was 6.5 and fertility was high across the board. Earthworms were everywhere, and my soil sampling tool was easy to push into the ground. The rich, green color of the rye showed the benefits of the preceding blanket of soybeans. The waving field of grain on the once barren slope was utterly no-till, as all I had done was plant, sow, mow, spray BD preps and spread a little compost, lime, granite and borax. I question if cultivation could have done as much. What two years previously had been the poorest yard on Avon street was now the most fertile. Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "If you want what visible reality can give, you're an employee. If you want the unseen world, you're not living your truth. Both wishes are foolish, but you'll be forgiven for forgetting that what you really want is love's confusing joy." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 17:51:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15914 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:51:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA09540; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:40:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09179 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:37:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.24] (pm3shep1-163-24.intrepid.net [209.190.163.24]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28390 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:40:30 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36EE6645.CF2@ipa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:42:25 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: Imants spader plow->Humus Management Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 114 >BD-NOW Readers, > >The original thread was No till versus Double digging. >In the ensuing discussion, mechanical spaders were >mentioned as viable implements at the commercial scale. IMANTS does not make a spader, they only SAY they make a spader. What they sell is simply an overpriced 'rotivator.' It is very important for anyone looking for a spading machine to realize that the IMANTS product is simply that: a product. The Imants machine (a 'dutch spader') pales in comparison to an Italian spader. WE A/B'd these machines at the 1997 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference. We purchased the Tortella (Italian) spader as a result. Once again: Italian spaders 'spade' the soil but the Imants machine churns it. (Not only that, it incorporates organic materials too deeply in the soil. -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 18:00:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA16283 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:00:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA10775; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:49:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10725 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:48:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.24] (pm3shep1-163-24.intrepid.net [209.190.163.24]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA30691; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:51:33 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:50:48 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: Al Kapuler replies "The impact of GMO's on our future" Cc: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 115 Dear Ferdinand, I certainly agree that sitting back, sheeping it out, while GMO's overrun us, is an inadequate response. So, one can collect, grow and inspire biodiversity. It is not only GMO's that are eliminating species, it is monoculture agriculture, alienistic racism, athiestic materialism. Kinship gardening is a good response. Learning the structure and quality of the fabric of life by growing gardens that example diversity and use the depth of the gene pool is a good response. Also, eating organic food, growing our own food, developing new and better crop rotations, microbiological fertilization regimes, these all contribute to a positive and ongoing future. Then also, have you taken an F1 tomato or F1 onion and established a OP line? Try comparing OP's, hierlooms and hybrids; gives direct cognition of some of the issues. Growing some your loval endangered and disappering wild species is also a good response. Hands on, head in, mind up and heart open. Best of growing, Al Kapuler From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 18:03:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA16342 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:03:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA11318; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:52:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10761 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:49:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.24] (pm3shep1-163-24.intrepid.net [209.190.163.24]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA30712; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:51:42 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:52:33 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: RE: Al Kapuler Cc: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 116 Martha, I went to Belize to see Rosita Arvigo and get some help in using natural herbal means to reverse lymphatic cancer which has been bothering me for a decade and has gotten somewhat worse in the past two years. I began learning the local flora, took many botanical photos, had some clean water, clean air, no phones, faxes or computers and much less stress. I began growing seeds organically in 1973 and continue to this day and for the rest of my life. Best to you Al Kapuler Research Director for Seeds of Change From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 18:04:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA16352 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:04:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA11247; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:52:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10737 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:49:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.24] (pm3shep1-163-24.intrepid.net [209.190.163.24]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA30700; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:51:37 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:51:52 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: Al Kapuler replies: Hey Steven! Cc: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 117 Dear Steven, Rob J. has been pseudo about organics from the outset. He also likes F1's rather than stimulating the development of OP lines from F1's so that we can assuredly save our own seeds and participate in the essential work of conservation of diversity. Same about hierlooms, only in his catalog from economic, marketplace driven, not a heartfelt response that varieties that have been grown, tested and cherished for generations have established themselves as important for humanity. It takes the committment and courage of people like Howard Shapiro and Stephen Badger to fund a growers network of certified organic growers to provide the seeds for Seeds of Change to make large amounts of organic seeds available. They are more expensive, it takes more handwork and it is easy to criticize until you grow some seeds yourself, work to get them clean and highly fertile before recognizing that it is a devotion to life, a profession like healing, a love of humanity and not an economic, bottom line driven endeavor. Johnny has been buying cheap, chemically grown seeds and foisting them on the organic public as if he is doing us a favor. Peace is growing, Best to you Al Kapuler. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 18:04:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA16363 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:04:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA11416; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:52:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10781 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.24] (pm3shep1-163-24.intrepid.net [209.190.163.24]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA30723; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:51:46 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:53:25 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Cc: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 118 Dear Andrew, Keep up the good work, flow of ideas and devotion to spiritual integration. Consider adding kinship gardening to your repetoire of activities.Education about the fabric of diversity is essential for biodynamics and essential for healthy gardens. Control, power, ego, ignorance are all in the mix of GE. Peace and love Al Kapuler From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 18:12:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA16598 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:12:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12758; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:01:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA12584 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.164] ("port 2049"@[148.233.186.164]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.11.13.11.10) with ESMTP id <0F8P004JTJTTQL@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:02:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:59:27 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Practical Stock Doctor In-reply-to: <01be6ab8$8b3cd8e0$76d8cecd@haggerty> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id SAA12586 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 119 >I have in my possession a very old book entitled "THE PRACTICAL STOCK >DOCTOR" 'The Farmers' Short Courses in Live Stock. Published as a text book >by F.B. Dickerson Company copyrighted 1904,1908,1912,and 1920.It is >absolutely phenomenal in it's scope and in addition uses almost exclusively >herbal, mineral and or folk type remedies for all illness and diseases as >well as a complete list of "symptoms" for common disorders. >My dilemma is this; as the book is old I am hesitant to continue thumbing >through it's pages for fear of its emminent disintegration. I will not use >an updated version as it would be contaminated with antibiotic thinking. I >wish to maintain the information without destrying the book. Any suggestions >on how to save this information? Any body feeling up to the job? > >Holding an international treasure and not sure wht to do with it! >Jean Dear Jean: Scan it or xerox it, and publish the book on the net. If posible ask for permission to do it, otherwise buy the rights for a few copies, that I am sure you will have no trouble selling among us. As a matter of fact I also have a similar treasure, I am the great grandson of the founder of the first agriculture school in Mexico, which now is the Universidad Agrícola de Chapingo, The name of my great grandparent was Manuel De Ibarrola Berruecos and in 1903 he published a series of manuals, the one I have is a Manual for the Milking Cow's Breeder (Manual del Criador de Vacas Lecheras) which among other things ( a 444 pages book) has a section on diseases, causes, symptoms, treatment etc.,all of it of course, antibiotic free in 1903. This series of books were written with the support of the Government( Secretaria de Fomento), but that administrative branch no longer exists, so althought we do not have the legal rights to reproduce the documents, we as a family, feel a need to preserve and propagate the materials whenever there is a need to do so. We have a few well preserved originals of this manuals, but what we use and distribute are good quality photocopies of the books. Probably you could do the same with your treasure. Regards. (I will gladly send a copy of this book to whomever (I would only charge the copying and the shipping), but let me warn you that the language is not very easy to understand to even a modern spanish speaking person, and that there are sections of the book that were only valid in the space-time situation where-when it was written (ie. accounting, or Fairs and expositions, etc). Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 18:42:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA17585 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:42:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17993; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:31:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17776 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:30:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp306.cy-net.net [208.21.195.115]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA29372 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:33:17 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE6FD1.AE642800@FLYLO>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:23:17 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE6FD1.AE642800@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Practical Stock Doctor Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:16:58 -0600 Encoding: 19 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 120 There are a number of book sellers who deal mostly in old or out of print books. I know Colleen's in Houston Texas will do a find for $5, and this includes both domestic and international book dealers who list. (And most of them do.) One might start with one of those and the need to handle fragile books may not be so great if more than one copy exists. Xeroxing the old bookstock becomes tricky because the pages are brittle on edges, and can only tolerate a certain amount of page-turning. A company who does microfilm work usually has what they call a planetary camera and may could reproduce the pages of large books without excessive handling. Someone off this very list sent me a wonderful book search online: http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search so far, every book I've thought about or could recall has been located through this search engine! Good luck. martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 18:57:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA17875 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:57:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20246; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.16]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20139 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:46:10 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA09757 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:48:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:48:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md16-59.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.59) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma009642; Tue Mar 16 17:47:42 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <1999316184931341@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 121 >>Interestingly, I think this has so very much to do with biodynamics. We too >>are working with the life forces. We too are trying to discover how to at >>least encourage and work with the life forces and the beings that weave >>them. Our means of course, are quite different. >> I don't really consider splicing nordic flounder genes into strawberries and tomatoes to make them frost resistant as "working WITH the life forces." The thing I don't here anyone talking about is the fact that this is a totally unnecessary, and expensive technology. It is market driven, not of natural/divine inspiration. Monsanto says with Roundup ready soybeans, farmers earn more because they use less pesticide thereby reducing costs. Bull****! The reason farmers don't earn their worth is because they are being manuiplated by a profit-driven economy which is managed by people with limited or no connection to agriculture, and certainly not in any spiritual sense. When will we (as a society) reclaim our real power by cutting the commodity brokers (an elevated term for "gambler"), chemical/bio- tech companies, politicians, out of the picture? It's like the whole dilemma with the organic standards. They're in a mess because they sought a bureaucratic solution to an economic problem that is founded on a faulty, anti-nature economy. If we play their game, we're always going to lose. We have to set the terms. Paco aka John E. Verin "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." - Dom Helder Camara From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 19:31:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA18768 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:31:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25709; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:20:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25468 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:19:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 18497 invoked from network); 16 Mar 1999 17:21:47 -0700 Received: from ts2-32.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO cyberhighway.net) (209.161.18.183) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 17:21:47 -0700 Message-ID: <36EEF5A7.3A18F28F@cyberhighway.net> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:22:00 -0700 From: Pam DeTray Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Salmon River Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Imants spader plow->Humus Management References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 122 Allan, Could you backtrack a bit for those of us unfamiliar with this subject? I think I understand what the basic principle is here, but I don't understand WHY a person wants to spade clumps instead of rototilling to aerate? Is it to protect the bio-organisms in the soil? Is it to prevent erosion, or soil blowaway? Does a spader create something more like a raised bed? (I did look at the site you posted last Christmas on the Tortella spader, and wish you could post that URL again.) Two of us are doing all the work by hand here this spring, and though I'm dreading the strain on my back, I won't miss the noise of the tiller. But in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, "What if someone wanted to start up a large market garden to feed 50 local families?" It's all hard clay around here, and you would need a plow. Is that more like tilling or spading? Thanks, Pam DeTray psdetray@cyberhighway.net Intergalactic Garage wrote: > > >BD-NOW Readers, > > > >The original thread was No till versus Double digging. > >In the ensuing discussion, mechanical spaders were > >mentioned as viable implements at the commercial scale. > > IMANTS does not make a spader, they only SAY they make a spader. What they > sell is simply an overpriced 'rotivator.' It is very important for anyone > looking for a spading machine to realize that the IMANTS product is simply > that: a product. The Imants machine (a 'dutch spader') pales in comparison > to an Italian spader. WE A/B'd these machines at the 1997 Mid-Atlantic > Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference. We purchased the Tortella > (Italian) spader as a result. Once again: Italian spaders 'spade' the soil > but the Imants machine churns it. (Not only that, it incorporates organic > materials too deeply in the soil. > > -Allan Balliett > igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 19:40:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA18972 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:40:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA27398; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:29:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA27306 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:28:49 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA12409 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:30:54 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:30:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md16-59.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.59) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma012256; Tue Mar 16 18:29:13 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <19993161931135705@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Al Kapuler replies "The impact of GMO's on our future" X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 123 On 03/16/99 17:50:48 you wrote: > >Dear Ferdinand, > I certainly agree that sitting back, sheeping it out, while GMO's >overrun us, is an inadequate response. > So, one can collect, grow and inspire biodiversity. It is not only >GMO's that are eliminating species, it is monoculture agriculture, >alienistic racism, athiestic materialism. > Best of growing, > Al Kapuler > > > GMOs are, proven in many European tests (but never found in Monsanto et al propaganda), contorting related species in the wild, so in that sense, yes they are eliminating species. Paco aka John E. Verin "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." - Dom Helder Camara From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 20:19:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA19909 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:19:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03957; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:07:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03238 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:03:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp306.cy-net.net [208.21.195.115]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08447 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:06:18 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE6FDE.AD88D040@FLYLO>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:56:19 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE6FDE.AD88D040@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: OFF topic RE: Al Kapuler Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:56:09 -0600 Encoding: 17 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 124 Pardon my lapse, but Al, do you have a website, and are you going to post the photos you took in Belize? I'm trying to wrack my brain to remember some folk you may recall, but it was 15+ years ago that I lived there. (Lived outside Orange Walk, not exactly pristine area even then.) Lived on Caye Caulker during one or two hurricanes, when I realized my life in the coconut palms was fast ending if one more came thru the thatch! Spent extensive time up 26 mile Lagoon near Lamanii ruins, (Indian Church area). Is the Faun Vaundia still operating the Carribean? (We helped launch her initially.) Better quit, getting 'homesick'. Hope your native cures were successful. Rosita Arvigo rings a bell but I can't remember where I heard of her. I have a Bze shaman source book, and I think she's quoted extensively in it, but I don't know which area she was from. An Arvigo (older gent) did help me get over malaria using native herbs. (Martha) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 20:29:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA20377 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:29:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05258; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:14:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04814 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:11:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.164] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.164]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.11.13.11.10) with ESMTP id <0F8P00I4ZLS6CR@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:43:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:49:06 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: BD No-till Is Different (Long) In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Cc: uai@stc.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <19990315220048.11514.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id UAA04819 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 125 > I brought a truckload of quarry dust from Blairsville in September, >and sowed rye, sweet clover, turnips and rape along with various odds and >ends. I mowed everything flat, broadcasting the quarry dust on top to sift >down through the mulch, and spraying everything down again with BD preps. >Rain gave me a break, and the seeds sprouted before the doves could eat >them. The former desert became the greenest yard on Avon street. > The bee hive made four gallons of honey, and the fall collards at >the top of the hill--where the peas had been--were tiny, but good. The >turnips in the rye cover on the hillside got no bigger than my thumb. The >fall celery and spinach were also a disappointment. But, it was not bad for >a first-year garden in a former barren waste. At least everything survived >and grew, even the herbs, daffodils, irises, and bamboo. > Hi Hugh: I remembered this great story from your book. That was the reason why I addressed a question to you last week about basalt dust (I assume it is the same as quarry dust, is'nt it ?). The question in question was : What to look for in a lab test or other exam to evaluate the "quality" of the dust for ag purposes ?. What is it the function of the basalt dust in BD-Agriculture, and why is it diferent (other than by particle size or surface area) from using construction sand. Another person in the list also wanted to know if there is a difference between quarry dusts from different areas. (near the ocean-higher Si content) There have been some reply from the list saying to measure CO2 production in the resulting growing areas and measuring (I do not know what or how) the "paramagnetic" variables of the dust. Could you please expand on the benefits and functions of the basalt dust within a BD and a chemical perspective. Many Thanks for your help. Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 20:53:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA20681 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:53:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA09955; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:42:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA09673 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:40:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.11]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:44:48 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:43:32 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 126 <> <> Eloquent thoughts. Western culture has been motivated by a profit driven economy for many centuries. Those in power have tried to force peoples' minds to accept anti life propaganda for centuries. The church spread the fear of witchcraft a long time ago in order to usurp the power of healing herbs and healthful foods grown in community gardens in order to line their own pockets and exercise their fear and mistrust of people helping one another for centuries. Community gardens today are being taken over by greedy hateful local governments all the while insisting it is the poor folks they are trying to help in the name of low income housing. GE is just the high tech example of controlling people through fear, promotion of greed above all else and divisive tactics through the promises of a better town, country or world. People have become so accustomed to the idea of cheap food, and so many have no idea what 'real' food is, that to promise a better world, with the vision of feeding the starving masses through better science (technology) enables people to keep their blinders on, retreat to the comfort zone of ignorance, and not do the difficult work of really connecting with their neighbors, their community, their earth and the world community in any spiritual or holistic way. As long as someone else is taking care of it, people can be led by laziness to buy or promote anything the market desires, regardless of any understanding that they in turn are helping to destroy the diverse ecosystem. <> In the face of ever increasing wealth being spent to build prisons and less and less to educate people, let alone build gardens, it is up to us indeed to gather with our neighbors and support diversity, community gardens, csa's and any other life promoting new paradigms that evolve over the next decade. As long as people continue to be "alienated" from their food source, from a sense of healing, from a real sense of purpose in life, GE will continue to dazzle the minds and hearts of men and women who do not have a different example of what life should be. Al Kapular, using the word "cherished", when speaking about heirloom seeds, really rang a bell for me. If more people felt cherished in this life by someone or some activity or if they themselves could work in a garden, in the earth with the elements feeding their souls, they would in turn cherish life and want to support it. But education is key. That and eating real food. If only thousands and thousands of small market gardens could be set in up the cities all over the world, where people are really alienated from food, perhaps more and more people would fight for life! If more and more biodynamic farms encroached upon monoculture megalithic corporate farms, perhaps more and more people would fight for life! If more people ate food with life force in it, they would feel less and less the need to keep supporting the pharmaceutical industrial complex by always looking for a quick fix. Ever the optimist, I do believe along with this horrendous monster that is GE, comes the low tech loving impulse of people who want more and more, to grow their own food. Thank you all for your inspiring dialogue and especially to Al Kapular for joining us inspiring more and more people in this community to make their voices heard. And thanks to Allan for his persistant efforts, to get the word out, to get the food out, to nourish and heal us! Respectfully, Jane Sherry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 22:59:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA22866 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:59:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01780; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:47:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01578 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:46:37 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA06915 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:48:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:48:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md16-36.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.36) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma006892; Tue Mar 16 21:48:09 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <199931622495936334@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 127 >Eloquent thoughts. Western culture has been motivated by a profit driven >economy for many centuries. Those in power have tried to force peoples' >minds to accept anti life propaganda for centuries. The church spread the >fear of witchcraft a long time ago in order to usurp the power of healing >herbs and healthful foods grown in community gardens in order to line their >own pockets and exercise their fear and mistrust of people helping one >another for centuries. Community gardens today are being taken over by >greedy hateful local governments all the while insisting it is the poor >folks they are trying to help in the name of low income housing. > Celebrating St. Patrick's day?.... Said witches, gardeners etc. were pagans, and it was Saint Patrick who drove paganism (snakes) from Ireland....a thought to have as you raise a toast tomorrow. Goddess-based pagans worshiped the snake as essential to life on Earth. Somehow the Bible authors (King James?) made the snake a nasty enemy, and women the fault of all our suffering. Gee, and here we are on a planet we've rendered ill. Hmmm. I truely feel our culture has a wounded psyche, feeling shame and rage by "God" rejecting us from "Eden." So, our angry infantile reaction is to lash out at God by trashing "His" Eden. Disclaimer... pobody's nerfect, pagans included, me included, and history is past and my comment has no anti-Irish or Christian intentions at all. Or anti-anyone for that matter. I'm just trying to figure out why we're killing ourselves and calling it progress. In faith for the return of Earth's vibrant health, Paco aka John E. Verin "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." - Dom Helder Camara From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 23:04:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA22947 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:04:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA02827; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:53:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from dogbert.ipa.net (dogbert.ipa.net [205.218.170.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02687 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:52:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from steved.ipa.net (pool-162.faye.ipa.net [206.27.222.162]) by dogbert.ipa.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA10595 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:54:26 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36EF26E3.3000@ipa.net> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:52:03 -0600 From: Steve Diver Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Imants spader plow->Humus Management References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 128 Intergalactic Garage wrote: > IMANTS does not make a spader, they only SAY they make a spader. What they > sell is simply an overpriced 'rotivator.'... etc.. Allan, The Humus Value data presented at the 1995 Acres USA conference by M.R. Foulds were indicators of soil humus levels as a result of type of implement used in the field trials. The spading implement that was compared against a Chisel Plow/Discing sequence was, in fact, the Imants Spading implement; i.e., the Dutch brand. Perhaps it would be more interesting to BD-Now readers to gain a better understanding of the above-mentioned Humus Value test: what is this test, what does it tell you, how is it different from the percent soil organic matter test, how does it fit into a humus management picture, and why would should a farmer place importance on the influence of tillage implement on soil humus levels. Steve Diver From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 23:13:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA23095 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:13:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04310; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03897 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:59:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.10]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:03:50 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:02:33 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Message-ID: <89FC55A4DD7CB3918525673700160CD2.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 129 <> Not trying to assign blame, just trying to take responsibility and celebrate Life! Best Regards, Jane From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 23:24:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA23325 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:24:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA06544; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:14:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05967 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:11:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.24] (pm3shep1-163-23.intrepid.net [209.190.163.23]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA01523 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:14:26 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4B34B8460B62ABC485256736006F7BB4.0000000000000000@webcity> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:04:37 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: Millet Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 130 >Does anyone on the list have experience with growing millet? > >Thanks, >Jane Jane, I believe that Christian Elwell grows some of the Japanese millets. He's off the list temporarily. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 23:31:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA23529 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:31:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA07577; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:20:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net (sys32.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.32]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA07118 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:17:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.211.141.210] (wt-d6-210.wt.net [208.211.141.210]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA06300; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:21:48 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BE6F8A.04750360@FLYLO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:54:23 -0600 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Andy R Subject: Re: OFF: Texas Catalyst Cc: Martha Wells Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 131 Matha, I was going to send this to you individually but I thought there might be some others in Tx on this group and therefore posted it there also. I am the chairman of the Seed Comittee at Urban Harvest in Houston where we provide seeds, most all organic and non-GE, heirlooms, but some hybrids for our members in the Houston area. I think we would have some very common overlap and would be happy to be a part of your site or with a link. We currently have some folks redoing our WEB site because right now it sucks. Hopefully that will be done in 2-3 months, we'll see. Also I know of some sources for plants etc..., I imagine you are aware of the Tx Seed Saving Group?? Andy >I have been asked a few times to create a usegroup for Texans. Organic >Gardening, where to buy seed and plants that do well in our many climates, >anything a Texan might want to discuss. I know the cities have area >discussion groups, but they fall short. I want folk to be able to access >the group for stuff like, what can I plant that does well in Cen E Tex in >the way of peaches? >I discovered an organic garden center in a small town and want to share >that with someone who might make use of it... things like this. >Right now, it's only one little page, but I'm working on pg 2 for members >to put up their own webpages, some photos, and other information they'd >like to share. Also about to go for a domain name for flylo, so the site >address will be easier to navigate to, too. > If you know a Texan who might be remotely interested, please forward this >message! Thanks, (martha) >http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html > >Sorry this is so off topic for this list, but if you're on OGL, Sanet, or >SQFT you'll be seeing it there, too. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 23:31:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA23540 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:31:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA07626; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:20:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net (sys32.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.32]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA07139 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:17:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.211.141.210] (wt-d6-210.wt.net [208.211.141.210]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA06315; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:21:54 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:58:01 -0600 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Andy R Subject: Re: OFF:Richard Alan Miller Cc: MCDOUGO@aol.com Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 132 He just spoke at the latest Acres Conference in Dec in Minneapolis and taught a workshop there. You can buy the tape from Acres USA. I have listened to the tape because I went to a diffent talk but he is very knowledgable and opionated which is not necessarily bad. Andy >In a message dated 3/14/99 1:43:09 PM, you wrote: > >>Please let me know if you've taken a workshop or attended a lecture by >>herbalist Richard Alan Miller. >> >>Thank you, >> >>-Allan Balliett >>igg@igg.com > >Allan, he spoke at the first Acres Conference East, 12 - 14 years ago, in >Carlisle PA. He talked about how farmers can grow herbs on a few acres, & >make more money per acre than growing field crops. I really don't remember >much more than that; it was a long time ago....Doug Britt. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 16 23:35:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA23641 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:35:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08049; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:23:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA07893 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.24] (pm3shep1-163-23.intrepid.net [209.190.163.23]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03208 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:25:04 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36EF26E3.3000@ipa.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:27:07 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: Imants spader plow->Humus Management Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 133 >Intergalactic Garage wrote: >> IMANTS does not make a spader, they only SAY they make a spader. What they >> sell is simply an overpriced 'rotivator.'... etc.. > >Allan, > >The Humus Value data presented at the 1995 Acres USA conference >by M.R. Foulds were indicators of soil humus levels as a result of >type of implement used in the field trials. The spading implement >that was compared against a Chisel Plow/Discing sequence was, >in fact, the Imants Spading implement; i.e., the Dutch brand. > >Perhaps it would be more interesting to BD-Now readers to gain >a better understanding of the above-mentioned Humus Value test: >what is this test, what does it tell you, how is it different >from the percent soil organic matter test, how does it fit into >a humus management picture, and why would should a farmer place >importance on the influence of tillage implement on soil humus >levels. > >Steve Diver I've got no problem with this, Steve, have at it. I don't see any reason why the two paragraphs above would conflict with caveat, of course. Spader shoppers: Eugene Canales "Spader Clinic," which appeared in BIODYNAMICS last year and has been on the www until recently, is your best introduction on what to look for in a machine which will 'double-dig' for you and how to coax the best performance out of the machine you do buy. As Bruce B. for a backissue copy of BIODYNAMICS or call Eugene Canales at the number listed in Steve's original post. Thanks -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 00:02:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA24100 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:02:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA13401; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:50:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA13042 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:49:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] ([208.210.143.20]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA05447 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:51:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <19990315220048.11514.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:38:52 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD No-till Is Different (Long) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 134 > >Hi Hugh: > >I remembered this great story from your book. That was the reason why I >addressed a question to you last week about basalt dust (I assume it is >the same as quarry dust, is'nt it ?). The question in question was : >What to look for in a lab test or other exam to evaluate the "quality" of >the dust for ag purposes ?. What is it the function of the basalt dust in >BD-Agriculture, and why is it diferent (other than by particle size or >surface area) from using construction sand. Another person in the list >also wanted to know if there is a difference between quarry dusts from >different areas. (near the ocean-higher Si content) > >There have been some reply from the list saying to measure CO2 production >in the resulting growing areas and measuring (I do not know what or how) >the "paramagnetic" variables of the dust. > >Could you please expand on the benefits and functions of the basalt dust >within a BD and a chemical perspective. > >Many Thanks for your help. > >Guillermo Romero I. >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Guillermo, My quarry dust was granite and by exhaustive analysis showed over 4% potassium and 0.72% phosphorous. I don't remember the calcium or magnesium content but it was NOT high--I believe under 1% for each. Silicon (atomic weight 28) was somewhere in the high 20s as I recall, which would make the silica content (silicon dioxide, molecular weight 60) up above 50%. I believe there was some nitrogen content since the granite was blasted out of the mountain with ammonium nitrate mixed with diesel oil. The best test as far as I'm concerned is wherever I applied it (maybe half a centimeter or so thick) I got a good algal bloom (given our high rainfall). I think there is another phenomenon associated with it that might be lost in the quest for chemical analysis and looking at everything with a microscope. Earthworms loved this stuff. The chemical folks may tell you it is best if rock powders are ground fine enough to pass a 60 or even 80 mesh screen. They'll say their tests show that's what it takes to get good release of mineral nutrients. I guess they haven't many earthworms in their test plots. Consider this. Earthworms are like chickens and have gizzards instead of teeth. They like those sharp, siliceous, gritty pieces to grind their food (the lawnmower clippings in this case) with. The chemists may tell you those sandy bits don't contain much in the way of nutrients anyway. But they're hard. I can hear the chemists scoff now, thinking what is the value of hardness? This quarry was noted for having hard stone, and like I say the earthworms loved it. They came up and scarffed it off the surface at night, gathered their lawnmower clippings, and presumably spend their days underground feasting to their hearts' content. That's what opened up the soil on that hillside and let in the nitrogen, oxygen and water. You know, those things nature gives us free if we have sense enough to go for it. What a key thing! Earthworms and hard, sharp bits of quartz with supposedly very low nutrient content. I doubt it could have been done with finer quarry dust or without the earthworms. Nor could the whole thing have occurred without BD preps to bring in the life forces. And I might add, since BD emphasizes the importance of looking at larger scale phenomena such as the overall growth and digestive activity and gives less emphasis to chemical analysis, it was the BD way of looking at things that achieved these results. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "If you want what visible reality can give, you're an employee. If you want the unseen world, you're not living your truth. Both wishes are foolish, but you'll be forgiven for forgetting that what you really want is love's confusing joy." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 06:47:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA27942 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 06:47:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA26586; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 06:35:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA26394 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 06:33:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp215.cy-net.net [208.21.195.24]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA28568 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:36:32 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7036.DB2480A0@FLYLO>; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:27:32 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7036.DB2480A0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: OFF: Texas Catalyst Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:00:12 -0600 Encoding: 33 TEXT, 84 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 135 Thanks Andy; I wasn't aware of your org, but I am a member of the Tx Seed Exchange. Jack Rowe, (owner, director) is also a member of our new group as well. Pass the info along, and keep in mind that this is still very early and not a lot of traffic on-list yet. A few E Tex members who might could use the information your own group can provide, so links, or membership would be useful both ways. martha -----Original Message----- From: Andy R [SMTP:lamu@wt.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 11:54 AM To: bdnow@envirolink.org Cc: Martha Wells Subject: Re: OFF: Texas Catalyst Matha, I was going to send this to you individually but I thought there might be some others in Tx on this group and therefore posted it there also. I am the chairman of the Seed Comittee at Urban Harvest in Houston where we provide seeds, most all organic and non-GE, heirlooms, but some hybrids for our members in the Houston area. I think we would have some very common overlap and would be happy to be a part of your site or with a link. We currently have some folks redoing our WEB site because right now it sucks. Hopefully that will be done in 2-3 months, we'll see. Also I know of some sources for plants etc..., I imagine you are aware of the Tx Seed Saving Group?? Andy begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(B +`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`J $```$````0`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````1P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&)D;F]W0&5N=FER;VQI;FLN;W)G`%-- M5% `8F1N;W= 96YV:7)O;&EN:RYO&%S($-A=&%L>7-T`) '`06 `P`.````SP<#`!$`!0````P``P#^``$@ M@ ,`#@```,\'`P`1``0`.0`D``,`3@$!"8 !`"$````R-T,R,D8P1#(U1$-$ M,C$Q0C$Q,3 P0S!&,#(Y-C@R,0#J!@$#D 8`H L``"$````+``(``0````L` M(P```````P`F```````+`"D```````,`+@```````P`V``````! `#D`0,_. M5&5PO@$>`' ``0```!@```!213H@3T9&.B!497AA`!X,`0````4```!3 M3510`````!X`'PP!````$@```&9L>6QO0'1X8WEB97(N8V]M`````P`&$,/6 M+4L#``<0[0,``!X`"! !````90```%1(04Y+4T%.1%D[25=!4TY405=!4D5/ M1EE/55)/4DP4RAU8FH% MD'17L$1AZ'1E.C8D-D__40]2'_]3+U0Y,< ]HPXA2Z$ZM@Y0FU5O5GY2.8$7 M`2!(/9'[!) V)#=9;UI_6X]##W>'!Q40& M;E@P`& )\$V@[WT``@$UX%Y290#P?0`Q@))P'H!<=@B0=VL+@/YD:T" H@3P M!T 080% #@#O<2(]@H(%`A!O!4(7(1+R#5C ;0M16, @0SI #8'-O`8 @+D\!( W@?_! "C M/ZC/J=^JY)\*^0,P>"]Y/WK->U24H0IK!"!!?Q!Y.R!)UB!MD#50)P5 86V1 M$X 9AB @>0AAM5!R9RS\(&)G4+1AA2&54 > !M#;!)"U4G0QT%? > 91"8 8 M($5X%M$/<&4N($I*`-!K!_%W9;80*/NPD#5@2 ]D'%0P8#WOQ(3 M4+3A( D`!4"W4D[ \X9RM5!N+6=P,7"U@!<@V;C 02 04 ?@15? -7#[MM6\ MX6B[$+_0LF(%H$Y@_S4@LA 3@+X6->%-T (@M87?N;"\98&0`Z 7<&^ H $` M_[80NP%G<;/@MA %L<4EP(#=O+!WQE.W$,:29DY@MB#G@T!/(&V0>7.]1J^D ML&_[L7\%0'L`P `@%N *A01E"XH-8SS,O_L 9B_6\@T>]POW'/ M9S]H3_]I7VIOLT34-E=S#(*T`P?P@"!;4TU44#H+8#!M=4!WQ# U8'1=_]?? MV.1NN]H?VR_T-]F*)$.= 0 GP@* #8,G2SBZU MX>__-:!#8^S^[H'IP"$@5[T1<_./[)%8)!_[4QQ>2W$ J%AA"[4+50 M!^+_P*'[P+?!Q[' <[QUO_.)0?M_<1. '(X,-AP@3#H$=%_[80,="Z M(,*@"4#*$;8R"3/\:'GHD #PNL!_<0C%M:+?Q2;[L;>"$?:U(6&XP U!@C%MXI3&\ ] MPD>\@OP_/RK-M"'03=2V!3+5F Q]`#7 -? ``P`0$ `````#`!$0``````,` M@!#_____0 `',,"+=_=D<+X!0 `(,,"+=_=D<+X!"P``@ @@!@``````P `` M`````$8``````X4````````#``* "" &``````# ````````1@`````0A0`` M``````,`!8 (( 8``````, ```````!&`````%*%``"W#0``'@`E@ @@!@`` M````P ```````$8`````5(4```$````$````."XP``,`)H (( 8``````, ` M``````!&``````&%````````"P`O@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````#H4` M```````#`#" "" &``````# ````````1@`````1A0````````,`,H (( 8` M`````, ```````!&`````!B%````````'@!!@ @@!@``````P ```````$8` M````-H4```$````!`````````!X`0H (( 8``````, ```````!&`````#>% M```!`````0`````````>`$. "" &``````# ````````1@`````XA0```0`` G``$`````````'@`]``$````%````4D4Z( `````#``TT_3<``/D/ ` end From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 08:11:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA29197 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:11:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA01532; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:59:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01222 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0107.direct.ca ([204.244.83.7] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10NFuV-0006QK-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 04:58:59 -0800 Message-ID: <36EFA43B.E078CFF3@direct.ca> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 04:46:51 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BD Discussion Group Bio-Dynamics Subject: WORLDWIDE DEMONSTRATION AGAINST GENE ENGINEERING MAY 13TH, 1999, NOON Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 136 CALL FOR A WORLD WIDE DEMONSTRATION AGAINST GENE ENGINEERING, MAY 13TH, 1999 AT NOON IN EVERY DWELLING, HAMLET, VILLAGE, TOWN AND CITY OF THIS PLANET BY INTERFERING WITH THE LIFE FORCES IN SEEDS, ANIMALS AND HUMANS INDUSTRY IS EGOTISTICALLY AT WORK ON ALTERING LIFE PATTERNS THAT HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED FOR MILLIONS OF YEARS. WHAT THEY CALL GENE MANIPULATION, IN SHORT, IS NOTHING LESS THAN RAPE OF MOTHER NATURE. A TYPICAL BYPRODUCT OF OUR 'HAVING-GONE-MAD INDUSTRIAL AND (SO CALLED) SCIENTIFIC SOCIETY' WE, THE PEOPLE OF THIS WORLD, WOMEN AND MEN, WILL NEVER LET THIS HAPPEN. ENOUGH RAPE HAS GONE ONE. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. WE STAND UNITED IN DEFENDING MOTHER EARTH AGAINST THIS SORT OF PROFIT MINDED AND ANTI SOCIAL BEHAVIOR. IT VIOLENTLY ATTACKS, ALTERS AND MISUSES OUR MOST BASIC NEEDS: OUR FOOD. WE WILL NEITHER REST, SLEEP NOR SHUT UP UNTIL THIS INJUSTICE (RAPE) HAS BEEN RECOGNIZED FOR WHAT IT IS. IT MUST BE STOPPED NOW AND FOREVER. THE TIME IS SHORT BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE. WE HAVE DECIDED TO ACT NOW. WE SHALL NOT LET THIS PLANET BE RUINED YET AGAIN (ATOMIC BOMB ETC.). LET US REMEMBER THAT GENE ENGINEERING WILL AFFLICT EVERYBODY FROM NOW ON FORWARD FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS TO COME. WE, THEREFORE, ARE CALLING FOR A DEMONSTRATION IN EACH AND EVERY CITY, TOWN, VILLAGE, HAMLET, AND DWELLING ON THIS EARTH ON ASCENSION DAY MAY 13TH, 1999, AT NOON THIS IS THE DAY FROM WHENCE FORWARD THERE SHALL BE NO FURTHER RAPE OF MOTHER EARTH. GENE ENGINEERING BE BANNED. LET DEMONSTRATIONS TAKE PLACE IN (FIRST RECIPIENT OF THIS POST ADD BEST PLACE IN YOUR TOWN FOR A LARGE DEMONSTRATION.) NEW YORK: Central Park LIECHTENSTEIN TORONTO: High Park STRASSBOURG LONDON: Speaker's Corner OSLO ZURICH Bellevue STOCKHOLM VANCOUVER Stanley Park MEXICO CITY SEATTLE Space Needle TEL AVIV VIENNA Prater ATHENS HELSINKI ISTAMBUL PARIS Place Etoile SOFIA ROME WASHINGTON MOSCOW DELHI BERLIN SIDNEY HAMBURG OTTAWA WARSAW GRAZ CHICAGO AMSTERDAM SAN FRANCISCO VATICAN CITY TOKYO BUONES AIRES MELBURNE ADD YOUR CITY AND PLACE AUCKLAND BRUSSELS ROTTERDAM GHENT BERN MADRID ZAGREB ANCHORAGE =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTER FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 08:22:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA29406 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:22:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02838; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheddar.direct.ca (cheddar.direct.ca [199.60.229.16]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA02806 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:11:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0107.direct.ca ([204.244.83.7] helo=direct.ca) by cheddar.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #20) id 10NG8e-0002gx-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:13:36 -0800 Message-ID: <36EFA7E8.4AEA57CD@direct.ca> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:02:32 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Calf rearing w/out the mamma References: <3.0.32.19691231140000.0104d614@pop-server> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 137 Dear Phyl, To begin with, I ought to make it clear that calf rearing (without the mama) is one of the most challenging jobs there is. Firstly, you have to massage the animal several times a day (as the mama does). Her tongue starts at the front (you may want to take a somewhat wetted towel) and work all the way to the back. Make sure that she always has a clean and dry anus. Milk replacers are, by and large, the worst you can give, however: what else is there? IF you give replacer, keep her on the sparing side. DO NOT OVERFEED. A SLIM CALF IS A HEALTHY CALF WAS ALWAYS RIGHT (ON OUR FARM). Give her additional amounts of lukewarm water when needed. The name of the game is NOT to get the runs, diarrhea. Milk, natural (if possible) could be given, however, this is dangerous as (in your temperature) it could get sour and may cause the runs. Should she develop the scours (runs) we used a raw egg yolk that we fed directly into the mouth. Dry fodder is already a possibility. Finely cut hay & fodder pellets. Martha's advice is excellent. Personally, I'd feed her with my fingers (in the bucket). OUr calves always learned to fend for themselves when the time had come. Phyl Dwyer wrote: > March 15, 1999 - Hawaii > > Dear Friends, > > Does anyone have suggestions about how to salvage a rather funky situation > for a special little heifer calf (almost eight weeks old, born 1/19/99) > that was taken from its mother immediately after birth and stuffed in a > cage in a bank of cages along with hundreds of other calves? She did not > fair well with the "bucket" drink it or "the hell with you" approach of the > dairy industry and is some what set back in her body weight and > development. We've taken her to our farm and are using what seems to be our > only option - a milk substitute powder. She was actually nearly born in a > better situation. Her mother was naturally bred and pastured during her > pregnancy, but was purchased into another dairy as part of a buy out that > just happened to coincide with her birth. > > Any suggestions that might help Monique, "Little Mo", in her journey toward > adulthood would be greatly appreciated, especially a source for more > organic or BD milk substitutes, etc. > > Thanks so much, > > Phyl Dwyer - Proud, but desperate new Dad! > pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com > > =================================================== > Please note Phyl Dwyer's new email address > > =================================================== -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTER FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 08:49:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA29839 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:49:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04817; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:38:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from anat.ncds.net (anat.ncds.net [207.250.242.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04736 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:38:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from pavilion (p00-91.ffxp.ncds.net [207.250.242.166]) by anat.ncds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7-sp) with SMTP id HAA02015 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:41:28 -0600 Message-ID: <003601be708c$ceb2a8a0$a6f2facf@pavilion> From: "parker" To: Subject: Alan Kapuler and Peace Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:41:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01BE7049.887BF0A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 138 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BE7049.887BF0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Alan- I was wondering how someone gets a copy of your Peace Papers? I'm = teaching a class at Prescott College next Spring and was hoping to use = it. I looked through books in print and nothing there. Also, what is = your connection to Deep Diversity Seeds in Gila, NM. I see they list = themselves as formerly Peace Seeds, wasn't this your company?=20 It's very exciting to have your energy on the list! Take care, Parker ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BE7049.887BF0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Alan-
     I = was wondering=20 how someone gets a copy of your Peace Papers? I'm teaching a class at = Prescott=20 College next Spring and was hoping to use it. I looked through books in = print=20 and nothing there. Also, what is your connection to Deep Diversity Seeds = in=20 Gila, NM. I see they list themselves as formerly Peace Seeds, wasn't = this your=20 company?
     = It's very=20 exciting to have your energy on the list!
 
Take care,
Parker
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BE7049.887BF0A0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 08:55:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA29921 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:55:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA05391; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:44:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA05090 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:41:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0107.direct.ca ([204.244.83.7] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10NGcS-00015J-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:44:25 -0800 Message-ID: <36EFAF09.A548719E@direct.ca> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:32:57 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BD Discussion Group Bio-Dynamics Subject: My cow research, so far, has yielded the following Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 139 Cow reaearch by Ferdinand: FEUDALISM: You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk. PURE SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows. You have to take care of all the cows. The government gives you as much milk as you need. BUREAUCRATIC SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows. They are cared for by ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and as many eggs as the regulations say you should need. PURE COMMUNISM: You have two cows. Your neighbors help you take care of them, and you all share the milk. Your neighbor has 25 children; you are a single parent with a child who has moved out. RUSSIAN COMMUNISM: You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk. DICTATORSHIP: You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you. MILITARISM: You have two cows. The government takes both and drafts you. PURE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the milk. REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors pick someone to tell you who gets the milk. AMERICAN DEMOCRACY: The government promises to give you two cows if you vote for it. After the election, the president is impeached for speculating in cow futures. The press dubs the affair "Cowgate". BRITISH DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. You feed them sheeps' brains and they go mad. The government doesn't do anything. ISRAELI DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. They form a political party. That party splits up over religious, ethnic and security differences. The problem is that it splits into three parties, and you still have only two cows. BUREAUCRACY: You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. After that it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows. ANARCHY: You have two cows. Either you sell the milk at a fair price or your neighbours try to kill you and take the cows. CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull. or CAPITALISM: You have no cows, but a Capitalist will let you milk her cow for you and they pay you enough to buy only 5% of the milk you just got out of the cow. TOTALITARIANISM: You have two cows. The government takes them and denies they ever existed. Milk is banned. BC POLITICS: You have two cows, instead of selling the milk, you sell the cows and open a casino in the empty barn. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 09:53:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01163 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:53:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14631; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:42:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.156]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13950 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:39:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [151.196.116.3] (client-151-196-116-3.bellatlantic.net [151.196.116.3]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA24323 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:41:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903171441.JAA24323@smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:20:13 -0500 Subject: Off: request Swiss CSA contacts From: "Steven McFadden" To: BD now Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 140 Hi - A US reporter has contacted me seeking leads to CSA farms in Switzerland. She is planning a trip there in the Autumn, and wants to write something on the subject. If you have any contacts in Switzerland, or promising leads, please let me know by e-mail and I will forward the messages on to her. With thanks, Steven From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 11:47:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04349 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:47:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05672; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:35:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05119 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:33:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.167] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.167]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.11.13.11.10) with ESMTP id <0F8Q00ADDYGTMD@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:14:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:20:55 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: BD No-till Is Different (Long) In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <19990315220048.11514.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA05139 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 141 >Guillermo, > >My quarry dust was granite and by exhaustive analysis showed over 4% >potassium and 0.72% phosphorous. I don't remember the calcium or magnesium >content but it was NOT high--I believe under 1% for each. Silicon (atomic >weight 28) was somewhere in the high 20s as I recall, which would make the >silica content (silicon dioxide, molecular weight 60) up above 50%. I >believe there was some nitrogen content since the granite was blasted out >of the mountain with ammonium nitrate mixed with diesel oil. > >The best test as far as I'm concerned is wherever I applied it (maybe half >a centimeter or so thick) I got a good algal bloom (given our high >rainfall). I think there is another phenomenon associated with it that >might be lost in the quest for chemical analysis and looking at everything >with a microscope. Earthworms loved this stuff. > >The chemical folks may tell you it is best if rock powders are ground fine >enough to pass a 60 or even 80 mesh screen. They'll say their tests show >that's what it takes to get good release of mineral nutrients. I guess they >haven't many earthworms in their test plots. > >Consider this. Earthworms are like chickens and have gizzards instead of >teeth. They like those sharp, siliceous, gritty pieces to grind their food >(the lawnmower clippings in this case) with. The chemists may tell you >those sandy bits don't contain much in the way of nutrients anyway. But >they're hard. I can hear the chemists scoff now, thinking what is the value >of hardness? This quarry was noted for having hard stone, and like I say >the earthworms loved it. They came up and scarffed it off the surface at >night, gathered their lawnmower clippings, and presumably spend their days >underground feasting to their hearts' content. That's what opened up the >soil on that hillside and let in the nitrogen, oxygen and water. You know, >those things nature gives us free if we have sense enough to go for it. >What a key thing! Earthworms and hard, sharp bits of quartz with supposedly >very low nutrient content. > >I doubt it could have been done with finer quarry dust or without the >earthworms. Nor could the whole thing have occurred without BD preps to >bring in the life forces. And I might add, since BD emphasizes the >importance of looking at larger scale phenomena such as the overall growth >and digestive activity and gives less emphasis to chemical analysis, it was >the BD way of looking at things that achieved these results. > >Best, > >Hugh Lovel >Blairsville, Georgia > >"If you want what visible reality can give, you're an employee. >If you want the unseen world, you're not living your truth. >Both wishes are foolish, but you'll be forgiven for forgetting >that what you really want is love's confusing joy." --Rumi Dear Hugh: Many thanks for your reply, I knew you were the one to ask on this one. Now, what I am understanding here is that the benefits of the rock dust are mainly in its fuction as a "substrate" for earthworm action ?. How about the action of microorganisms on rock dust to produce the chelatization of the minerals ? (probably facilitated by the worms work), I would assume that microorganism would benefit more from a finner structure, is'nt so ? I really do not want to get caught in the chemistry (I never liked been an employee) I only want to understand why and when it is important to use the dust for the mineralization of the soil. As part of the understanding, I want to know about the mechanisms and BD considerations involved. The test you are suggesting about the promotion of algaee growth, could be a good indicator, but I would bet it's results would be confounded by many unaccounted for variables. (such as the BDO in your rain water, light exposure and the capacity of the rock dust to hold moisture). I am here confronted with a situation where I could use volcanic ash, granite dust or basalt dust, ( could you say the three things can be grouped as "rock dust" ?). My problem is that I do not know what would be best or appropriate to use in a mineralization "therapy". For this therapy, I do not consider Si important, because I assume is already abundant (other than in heavy clay soils), Steiner himself mentioned (L2-p31) that "we can almost count on enough silica being present to have the desired effect". The effect being "the extent to which the soil becomes alive and develops its own chemistry". So if the "Silica" content of the rock powders are not all that different (around 50 %) and we most always have enough, then what are the important variables in re-mineralization?, What are the limiting factors ?, is it the mineral composition of the rock ?, is it the physical properties (such as grit for worms) or is it something else in addition to the above. An underlying question; why and when is re-mineralization (adding rock dust) important ? A spin off question could be: If we have enough rocks, sand and mineral dust (Silica), the soil itself through the action of the furthest forces of the universe (life-ether and chemical-ether) the soil would balance itself (develops it's own chemistry) ? Let me rephrase my original question: If you were in my situation, of the three sources mentioned, what would you use ? and what elements and mechanisms (intellectual or not) would you consider to reach your decision ?. I want to make it clear that I really do not want to get into an argument here, I just want to benefit from your knowledge and experience. Many thanks for all your help and my warmest regards to you. Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 13:38:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA08038 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:38:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA27400; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:27:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA27247 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:26:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts1-14.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.199.15]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with SMTP id KAA09314 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:29:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990317110215.00930670@mail.kootenay.com> Message-Id: <4.1.19990317110215.00930670@mail.kootenay.com> X-Sender: woodyw@mail.kootenay.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:08:42 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Woody Subject: Spring Equinox Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 142 Listfolk: The Spring Equinox happens Saturday, March 20, 5:45 PM our time here in British Columbia. What signs of Spring have we all been observing? Never mind bragging, you guys south of the 30 degrees Latitude...I know it's been Spring there for some time. Signs of Spring here at Aurora Farm: * Lilacs, serviceberry, Balm of Gilead buds swelling; * Crocus and snowdrops blooming; * Robins and Towhees singing; * A bald eagle soaring over our hilltop yesterday; * A couple of nights lately when it didn't drop below freezing... Ahhhhhh! Woody From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 14:31:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA08914 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:31:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06603; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:19:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06336 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:18:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from della.niehs.nih.gov (della.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.42]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.9.1a/8.9.1/NIEHS-1.0) with ESMTP id OAA18082 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:21:05 -0500 Received: by della.niehs.nih.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:21:01 -0500 Message-ID: <8DD3D27DC6A5D111823200A0C955FB4005BE9CA0@drucker.niehs.nih.gov> From: "James.Olivia" To: "'biodynamic'" Subject: raw food BDers? Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:20:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 143 please pardon this brief survey of sorts that would help me with a long-term decision about my health. i would really value the biodynamic perspective. is there anyone on this list who is predominantly a raw foodist (one who eats nothing but raw fruits, vegs, nuts, seeds, spouted grains and beans)? and then, is there anyone in that group who lives somewhere like Canada or orthern Vermont or somewhere it would ordinarily be hard to find fresh food year round? how do you manage? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 15:15:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09983 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:15:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15030; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.157]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA14635 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:00:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [151.196.125.70] (client-151-196-125-70.bellatlantic.net [151.196.125.70]) by smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA12139 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:05:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903172005.PAA12139@smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:02:44 -0500 Subject: Off - Re: Spring Equinox From: "Steven McFadden" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id PAA14636 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 144 Ah Spring, so it looms, snow melting fast here in northern Baltimore County, MD. Our big SIGN -- the ceremony we are hosting, in conjunction with thousands of indigenous, Tibetan, and ecumentical folk around the world. From Stonehenge to Chichen Itza, to Macchu Pichu to Uluru in Australia -- people will greet the Sun to send out prayers according to their own tradition and hearts. FYI, I have pasted below the invitation we have extended to our friends, family and neighbors.....Megwiich, Steven SOLAR WAVE CEREMONY Sunset Saturday March 20 through Sunrise, Sunday, March 21 At Yeoho Grove in Parkton, MD × Help Lift the Energy × At the Sun rises on March 21, 1999 ­ just hours after the exact moment of the Vernal Equinox ­ thousands of groups around the world will gather in circles to pray for peace and for the ongoing spiritual awakening of humanity. In the ancient calendar system of the Maya the new year begins at this moment ­ Sunrise at Vernal Equinox. They designate the year as 10 MANIK ­ a Mayan concept that translates as "a Year to Grasp the Higher Vision and Manifest Peace." Considering all that is unfolding in our world at the verge of the Millennium, many are taking advantage of this moment to pray, sing, meditate, or otherwise promote universal spiritual principles ­ according to the ways and traditions of their hearts. As with the Harmonic Convergence in 1987, millions of visionaries, lightworkers and peacekeepers who hold a positive vision for humanity's awakening, universal peace, and planetary healing will amplify this impulse through the powerful SOLAR WAVE commenced at sunrise. During the Solar Wave, the Sun will be at its zenith on the Equator, and will emanate a solar wave force balanced in all Four Directions. We will gather at Sunset on Saturday for Purification Lodges. We will fast through the night and awaken for an ecumenical Sunrise ceremony ­ linking with thousands of other groups around the world at pyramids, temples, groves, and other sacred sites. The ceremony will be followed by a pot-luck breakfast party. Please bring something scrumptiously nutritious for the feast. Please call if you are planning to join us. × Yeoho Grove: 410-343-0856 × From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 16:11:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA11438 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:11:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24622; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:59:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from send205.yahoomail.com (send207.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.131]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24274 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:57:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990317210425.8673.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Received: from [206.205.40.10] by send207.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:04:25 PST Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:04:25 -0800 (PST) From: bruce ritchie Subject: OFF GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 145 John, actually to the whole list, since I cannot always tell who wrote what. I am in a "men's" group that is full of EDUCATED people who somehow feel that the ultimate insult often flung around is that someone/thing is somehow connected to the 'patriarchy'. I have not gotten far with reminding these men of several things. First, there have been nurturing male traditioons that were very earth friendly, like the 'greenman'. Secondly, there has been no real 'conspiracy' by men against women, it is just an ignorance of historic proportions. The real dichotomy is between exploitation and nurture, NOT between male ideas and female ideas. Men are still almost half of the populatioon, and this constant put-down of maleness, often by men themselves, will not help anyone to see a new visioon, or recapture an old one of value. As long as we are sexual beings, maleness will be a worthwhile paart of the whole diverse picture. I refuse to accept the judgement that equates maleness with exploitatioon! not that anyone said that exactly, but it seems to be a prevelant idea in our society. Bruce Ritchie > Said witches, gardeners etc. were pagans, and it was Saint Patrick who drove paganism (snakes) > from Ireland....a thought to have as you raise a toast tomorrow. Goddess-based pagans worshiped > the snake as essential to life on Earth. Somehow the Bible authors (King James?) made the snake > a nasty enemy, and women the fault of all our suffering. Gee, and here we are on a planet we've > rendered ill. Hmmm. > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 17:43:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA13905 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:43:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA10794; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:30:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10628 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:29:24 -0500 (EST) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hDINa04982 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:31:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:31:27 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Spring Equinox Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 146 Signs of Spring at 21 degrees N: in January.... The cardinals began their mating songs. Mango trees didn't bloom as they usually do. Time to plant cucumbers, summer squash, and snow peas. in February.... Cardinal's songs increase. Not as rainy as January. Shower tree pods start dropping. November pole beans finally finished. in March.... Birdsong all day long. Begin harvesting cukes, peas and squash. Some days the sun is uncomfortable between 12 and 2. Chickens really start to "crank." Weed and grass growth accelerate. Ke'anae, Maui. ' 99 Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 19:19:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA16405 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:19:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25419; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:07:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25087 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:05:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer - 153.37.26.115 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:07:57 -0800 Message-ID: <000e01be70d2$fda75e80$731a2599@oemcomputer> From: "Dr. Andrew Lorand" To: Subject: OFF: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:05:09 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 147 Friends, I started this thread with the hope that folks would contribute to the discussion around the notion, that somehow there must be a spiritual lesson in the GMO story - AND - hopefully something positive to set our energy into. I suggested that the research and development into genetics and biotech of various kinds, was mainly about getting a handle on the life processes (or life forces; speak: the etheric), rather than just on manipulating a specific plant's gene pool or making lots of money through genetic copyrights, patents and other forms of monopolies. I was hoping for some reflective feedback - and still am. My hope was further, that we might look together at the potential implications of our biodynamic work as a counterbalance (specifically around developing insight into life forces) to the GMO work being done. Specifically, what kinds of work are you all doing around studying, experiencing, working with the etheric forces? How is it that these corporations and government agencies, universities and private companies are spending these huge amounts of money on discovering how to plants with materialistic means only? Are we able to develop new plants, healthier plants, new varieties, etc. through other means? By working with spiritual, rather than just material forces and substances? Can we begin to discuss this part of biodyanmics? Curious, Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 19:33:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA16696 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:33:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA27592; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:22:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA27122 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:19:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer - 153.37.26.115 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:21:56 -0800 Message-ID: <002801be70d4$f188bac0$731a2599@oemcomputer> From: "Dr. Andrew Lorand" To: Subject: OFF: request Swiss CSA contacts Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:19:07 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 148 Steven, Write the Goetheanum, specifically the Agriculture Department, Natural Sciences Section - try perhaps Mr. Markus Huter and ask for addresses, numbers, etc. of community farms in CH. science_goetheanum@compuserve.com is the email address. Cheers, Andrew >Hi - > >A US reporter has contacted me seeking leads to CSA farms in Switzerland. >She is planning a trip there in the Autumn, and wants to write something on >the subject. > >If you have any contacts in Switzerland, or promising leads, please let me >know by e-mail and I will forward the messages on to her. > >With thanks, Steven > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 19:54:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA17007 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:54:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00451; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:41:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00022 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:38:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.180] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.180]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.11.13.11.10) with ESMTP id <0F8R00D0JJWT0N@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:58:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:04:07 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: OFF: My cow research, so far, has yielded the following In-reply-to: <36EFAF09.A548719E@direct.ca> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Cc: leandro@cgic.ucol.mx Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id TAA00032 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 149 >Cow reaearch by Ferdinand: > >FEUDALISM: You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk. > >PURE SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes them and puts >them in a barn with everyone else's cows. You have to take care of >all >the cows. The government gives you as much milk as you need. > >BUREAUCRATIC SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes them >and >puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows. They are cared for by >ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the >government >took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk >and >as many eggs as the regulations say you should need. > >PURE COMMUNISM: You have two cows. Your neighbors help you take care >of >them, and you all share the milk. Your neighbor has 25 children; you >are >a single parent with a child who has moved out. > >RUSSIAN COMMUNISM: You have two cows. You have to take care of them, >but >the government takes all the milk. > >DICTATORSHIP: You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots >you. > >MILITARISM: You have two cows. The government takes both and drafts >you. > >PURE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the >milk. > >REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors pick >someone >to tell you who gets the milk. > >AMERICAN DEMOCRACY: The government promises to give you two cows if >you >vote for it. After the election, the president is impeached for >speculating in cow futures. The press dubs the affair "Cowgate". > >BRITISH DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. You feed them sheeps' brains and >they go mad. The government doesn't do anything. > >ISRAELI DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. They form a political party. >That >party splits up over religious, ethnic and security differences. The >problem is that it splits into three parties, and you still have only >two cows. > >BUREAUCRACY: You have two cows. At first the government regulates what >you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to >milk them. After that it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and >pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms >accounting for the missing cows. > >ANARCHY: You have two cows. Either you sell the milk at a fair price >or >your neighbours try to kill you and take the cows. > >CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull. >or >CAPITALISM: You have no cows, but a Capitalist will let you milk her >cow for you and they pay you enough to buy only 5% of the milk you >just >got out of the cow. > >TOTALITARIANISM: You have two cows. The government takes them and >denies >they ever existed. >Milk is banned. > >BC POLITICS: You have two cows, instead of selling the milk, you sell >the cows and open a casino in the empty barn. Dear Ferdinand: (sorry Allan this is a totally OFF topic) (sorry all for mispelling) I could not resisted adding the Mexican system: THE MEXICAN SYSTEM (or Where is the Beef ? story) The Government asks the World Bank and IDB for a development loan to buy USA swiss cows in order to improve milk productivity in the Country's tropical regions. The government mounts a grand ceremony with lots of media coverage to make the physical delivery of the cows to the beneficiaries of the program in Mexico City's Zocalo (main square). (to qualify as a cow recipient you are either closely related to the government officer responsible for the cow program or, in times of elections, they give you a coupon valid for one cow, but only after they make certain that you, your family and at least ten of your neighbors voted for the PRI). In the delivery ceremony everyone is given a "cow" enclosed in a beautiful gift box (the boxes are part of the 200 % program's overhead and were manufactured very tastefully by the wife of the Minister of Agriculture). Once you open your box, you realize that you signed a receipt and a credit line for an empty beautiful box and that you will have to service that "soft loan" for 20 years at a 45 % yearly compound interest rate. There are some complains, not so many as the situation deserved, because recepients do not want to hurt the revolutionary family or, they know that selling votes is not all that legal. The guy responsible for playing a tape of cow sounds (a lot of moo's) during the delivery ceremony is trown in jail. According to the Judicial Police, He is the only suspect in the "presumed fraud". He will await sentence for about ten years on until the investigations are completed (probably another 20 years) in a maximum security prison. There is a lot of people defaulting now on their cow credit lines due to bad weather (of course), so that, in order to compensate the situation and pay back the international loans in strict time (or even before the deadline in order to qualify for other loans) the Mexican Government decides to create a fund trust in suport of the cow debtors, and capitalize the fund by means of increasing taxes on milk and milk related products (packaging material, restaurants, cars, gasoline, paper, publicity, chairs, cribs, air fares, etc.). As a result milk consumption drops to an historic low of 5 milliliters percaput/year. The Government goes into another pompous ceremony to announce that given the Presidential efforts, Mexico's milk production has finally reached country level self sufficiency for the first time in centuries and that we have a surplus production subject to be exported to the US and Canada under the NAFTA benefits (tax and tariff free). The export deal never closes, there are suspicions on the Canadian end, that Liconsa (the Official Milk Company) is using this commercialization chanel to get rid of surplus milk acquired years ago from Russia after the Chernobyl accident. The Cow Fraud is commented in the front page of the Washington Post and in the interior pages of the National Enquire (are these published by the same editor?) and is somehow related to drug deals in the Tijuana border. Janet Reno declares that the US judiciary system has confiscated a bank account in San Antonio, Texas to the name of the eldest brother of the Mexican Minister of Agriculture with a $ 1.2 billion dollar balance (coincidentaly the same as the total amount of the WB and IDB cow credits, minus the 15 % service comission), and that the money, because is drug related and was laundered in the States by Citibank, will be transfered to the US Treasury where it will be used in AID's humanitarian and "surveillance" projects. Ni modo, Aqui me toco vivir. Cheers Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 19:55:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA17029 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:55:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00887; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:43:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00699 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:42:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer - 153.37.26.14 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:45:02 -0800 Message-ID: <004601be70d8$2adc9aa0$731a2599@oemcomputer> From: "Dr. Andrew Lorand" To: Subject: OFF: raw food BDers? Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:41:38 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 150 For a short while, James, I was into raw foods, about 20 years ago, while living in the Swiss Alps. I discovered that it did not work for me very well, because I lost bodily warmth, was always cold. Over time, I discoverd that Steiner too, had worked with the ideas of raw foods and had at one point suggested no more than one third raw foods for the average person - for a variety of reasons. One being the warmth issue (I wasnt surpised), another being the notion that warming foods (by cooking them with heat) continued the sun's ripening process and that for human consciousness this was a good thing. Finally, he indicated that naturally processed foods (as is sauerkraut or yogurt for example) were also very important for inner development faculties. So I took up, for a while, the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 idea (raw, cooked, processed), which worked great for the 7 or so years I was able to keep it up. Thinking about going back to it, actually. Good luck with your search, Andrew please pardon this brief survey of sorts that would help me with a long-term >decision about my health. i would really value the biodynamic perspective. > >is there anyone on this list who is predominantly a raw foodist (one who >eats nothing but raw fruits, vegs, nuts, seeds, spouted grains and beans)? >and then, is there anyone in that group who lives somewhere like Canada or >orthern Vermont or somewhere it would ordinarily be hard to find fresh food >year round? how do you manage? > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 19:58:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA17076 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:58:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01370; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:47:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from anat.ncds.net (anat.ncds.net [207.250.242.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01264 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:46:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from pavilion (p01-12.ffxp.ncds.net [207.250.242.187]) by anat.ncds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7-sp) with SMTP id SAA18697 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:49:49 -0600 Message-ID: <001201be70ea$2c755de0$bbf2facf@pavilion> From: "parker" To: Subject: Re: Spring Equinox Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:49:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 151 Woody- Here in southwestern Wisconsin, Spring is on the move also. The birds seem to be singing brighter and louder each morning. Yesterday I sat cross-legged while 200 ft.away on the other side of the field lolled a fox, taking in the sun on an unseasonably warm 63 degree day here. We sat and looked at eachother for 20 minutes until I got up and walked away. An owl has parked on the edge of the field also, I hear it woo even during the day. I expect the freshly burned field is a feasting ground for these two. The 1/2 mile dirt road into the farm is so muddy in the low spots that we have to walk in. Eating lots of water cress and greenhouse nettles, started 600 flower seedlings yesterday. Parker -----Original Message----- From: Woody To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 10:33 AM Subject: Spring Equinox >Listfolk: > >The Spring Equinox happens Saturday, March 20, 5:45 PM our time here in >British Columbia. >What signs of Spring have we all been observing? Never mind bragging, you >guys south of the 30 degrees Latitude...I know it's been Spring there for >some time. > >Signs of Spring here at Aurora Farm: > >* Lilacs, serviceberry, Balm of Gilead buds swelling; >* Crocus and snowdrops blooming; >* Robins and Towhees singing; >* A bald eagle soaring over our hilltop yesterday; >* A couple of nights lately when it didn't drop below freezing... > >Ahhhhhh! > >Woody From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 20:13:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA17353 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:13:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA03251; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:59:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA02908 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:57:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0203.direct.ca ([204.244.83.19] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10NRAe-0004Cs-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:00:27 -0800 Message-ID: <36F04C3A.FCC31FA6@direct.ca> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:43:38 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Off: request Swiss CSA contacts References: <199903171441.JAA24323@smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 152 Dear Steven, I have contacted Demeter Germany to see whether they can give me the Demeter Switzerland address. Thereafter, I shall forward it to you. Regards Ferdinand Steven McFadden wrote: > Hi - > > A US reporter has contacted me seeking leads to CSA farms in Switzerland. > She is planning a trip there in the Autumn, and wants to write something on > the subject. > > If you have any contacts in Switzerland, or promising leads, please let me > know by e-mail and I will forward the messages on to her. > > With thanks, Steven -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 17 21:16:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA18594 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:16:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12253; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:04:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA05255 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:14:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0203.direct.ca ([204.244.83.19] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10NRQU-0005q9-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:16:47 -0800 Message-ID: <36F05017.990FFA97@direct.ca> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:00:07 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Al Kapuler replies "The impact of GMO's on our future" References: <19993161931135705@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 153 Dear Al, Yes, you are right, one can fight GE with other means as well - although Al, may I say that materialism imho always = atheism (materialism totally denies the creator being I worship) And Al, racism is always alienistic. There isn't any racism that doesn't alienate. Perhaps my cows, (and other animals) do live by a certain (wholistic) racism - I assume they do not know better OR (speaking from a more spiritual side) they know that the etheric forms around a certain breed does not fit into another etheric form. Cows often eliminate any other breed that does not belong into theirs. In other words: my Black Angus excluded Red Angus (calves) so much so that they would have killed them. To keep the race clean, I suppose (or, see above). Still: where's the beef! Regards Ferdinand (so, this is a pleonasm) and beanman@ix.netcom.com wrote: > On 03/16/99 17:50:48 you wrote: > > > >Dear Ferdinand, > > I certainly agree that sitting back, sheeping it out, while GMO's > >overrun us, is an inadequate response. > > So, one can collect, grow and inspire biodiversity. It is not only > >GMO's that are eliminating species, it is monoculture agriculture, > >alienistic racism, athiestic materialism. > > > Best of growing, > > Al Kapuler > > > > > > > GMOs are, proven in many European tests (but never found in Monsanto et al propaganda), contorting related species in the wild, so in > that sense, yes they are eliminating species. > > Paco > aka John E. Verin > > "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. > When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." > - Dom Helder Camara -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 00:15:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21773 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA02683; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15772 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:28:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dirkers@juno.com) by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D5X7TAEC; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:30:53 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:51:07 -0600 Subject: Re: soil testing Message-ID: <19990317.201614.9614.1.Dirkers@juno.com> References: <19990316163300646.AAA952@erica.renaud.frontiercoop.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-5,9-17,19-45 From: Christopher P Dirkers Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 154 In my opinion Dr. Phil Wheeler at CSI, Inc. is a very knowledgeable soil chemist. He understands both organic (LaMotte) and inorganic techniques. Call 800-260-7933 or Drdirt25@aol.com. Christopher Dirkers -------------------------------------- Located in the beautiful Ozarks, Dirkers' Pleasant Valley School and Farm is dedicated to providing nourishment for mind and body. We raise pure, nutritionally enhanced produce, herbs, and pastured poultry. Classes include Family Preparedness, Health & Agronomy, and Scriptural Law. Dirkers' Pleasant Valley School & Farm HC62, Box 370-A Calico Rock, Arkansas. U.S.A. (72519) 870-297-8040 or dirkers@juno.com On 16 Mar 99 10:32:51 -0600 Erica Renaud writes: >To bd subscribers, > >I wanted to know if anyone could provide me with some feedback >concerning soil analysis. We, at the organic farm where I work, >submitted three soil samples to three different soil testing >laboratories. One of the laboratories where we sent a sample was >Woodsend. I understand that this soils lab is highly supported by >biodynamic growers and I wanted to know why? In addition, I wanted to >know what makes their analysis most appropriate to biodynamic growers? > It appears to me that their analysis is very thorough, perhaps more >than all of the other laboratories we submitted samples to. I would >appreciate any comments that would help me make a more thorough >assessment of the results provided. > >Thank you, > >Erica > > > >Erica N.C. Renaud >Organic Research Farm, Research Specialist >Frontier Natural Products Co-op >(319) 227 - 7996 ext.1373 > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 00:15:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21782 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA02447; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:02:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14187 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:17:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.149] (pm3shep2-163-75.intrepid.net [209.190.163.75]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA23888 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:20:11 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990316163300646.AAA952@erica.renaud.frontiercoop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:03:09 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: soil testing Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 155 Sorry, Erica, I guess I've never met an Biodynamic grower who can AFFORD the soil tests at Woods End. I think the linkage between Wood end and biodynamics occurs at the bureaucratic level, not at the farm level. Of course, I'm probably biased. I've asked Woods End founder, Will Brinton, to link into BD Now! to discuss his 'soil life' kits and he's refused to do so. He's the first 'public figure' who has refused to interact with the BD Now! group. I have used the Solvita kits, but they are v. expensive and, since all my tests pegged the 'life' scale, I can only assume that these kits are designed for practitioners who are far removed from actual biodynamic practice. AND, I'm still waiting for the environmental impact study in regards to the manufacturing of the Woods End CSA recycling bags!! :-) Submitted respectfully by Allan Balliett igg@igg.com >To bd subscribers, > >I wanted to know if anyone could provide me with some feedback concerning >soil analysis. We, at the organic farm where I work, submitted three soil >samples to three different soil testing laboratories. One of the >laboratories where we sent a sample was Woodsend. I understand that this >soils lab is highly supported by biodynamic growers and I wanted to know >why? In addition, I wanted to know what makes their analysis most >appropriate to biodynamic growers? It appears to me that their analysis >is very thorough, perhaps more than all of the other laboratories we >submitted samples to. I would appreciate any comments that would help me >make a more thorough assessment of the results provided. > >Thank you, > >Erica > > > >Erica N.C. Renaud >Organic Research Farm, Research Specialist >Frontier Natural Products Co-op >(319) 227 - 7996 ext.1373 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 00:15:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21790 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:15:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA02799; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:04:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17366 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:39:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp264.cy-net.net [208.21.195.73]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA09108 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:42:08 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE70B5.5F15AC80@FLYLO>; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:33:09 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE70B5.5F15AC80@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: Ferdy's cow topic Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:30:13 -0600 Encoding: 12 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 156 Cows are springing in almost every field in Texas and it made me realize a thread I wanted to share with Ferdy's cow collection stories. The Nursery. Cows with very young calves will allot one cow mom to do nursery duty. By some unspoken signal, they'll all lie down and when they get up to graze off, the baby sitter won't budge. She'll graze around the calf group but rarely go off with the main herd. As the cows fill up with grass and start to stretch udders, they come lowing back to claim their young, but the baby sitter usually stays till the last one has been claimed. Usually the one with the youngest calf is the designated nursery mom, as hers can't get up and go for very long periods anyhow. But isn't it nice how they evolved this pattern of herd-ism? (martha) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 00:15:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21801 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:15:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA02589; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:03:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14207 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:17:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.149] (pm3shep2-163-75.intrepid.net [209.190.163.75]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA23899 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:20:14 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <8DD3D27DC6A5D111823200A0C955FB4005BE9CA0@drucker.niehs.nih.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:05:42 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: raw food BDers? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 157 >please pardon this brief survey of sorts that would help me with a long-term >decision about my health. i would really value the biodynamic perspective. > >is there anyone on this list who is predominantly a raw foodist (one who >eats nothing but raw fruits, vegs, nuts, seeds, spouted grains and beans)? >and then, is there anyone in that group who lives somewhere like Canada or >orthern Vermont or somewhere it would ordinarily be hard to find fresh food >year round? how do you manage? We had a short discussion of this a while back. I think the Anne Wigmore (?) books advocate the juice of grain grasses and lots of sprouts. Also, even the raw food purists incorporate more 'cooked' foods during winter, as I understand it. I think that Rex Harril, of this list, is an authority on this. -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 00:16:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21810 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:16:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA02949; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:04:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from dogbert.ipa.net (dogbert.ipa.net [205.218.170.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA01919 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:58:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from steved.ipa.net (pool-210.faye.ipa.net [206.27.222.210]) by dogbert.ipa.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA10036 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:01:21 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36F08807.372B@ipa.net> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:58:47 -0600 From: Steve Diver Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Imants spader plow->Humus Management References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 158 Intergalactic Garage wrote: > I've got no problem with this, Steve, have at it. I don't see any reason > why the two paragraphs above would conflict with caveat, of course. I'm sorry Allan, but I have no idea what you are talking about with this caveat gobbley-goop. Steve Diver From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 00:16:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21817 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:16:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA02910; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:04:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA01586 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:54:14 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA28627; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:56:19 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:56:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md14-12.ix.netcom.com(199.182.66.12) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma028541; Wed Mar 17 22:55:39 1999 To: edophan@yahoo.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <199931723572849961@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: OFF GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 159 I'm on your side, my friend. My referring to Goddess-based religion or the "it's all Eve's fault" sydrome has no intonation that "men are evil mysogenists." I, too, dislike "patriarchy" bashing. Robert Bly, among others, makes very helpful distinctions between true patriarchy and industrial domination which is tradionally run by men. My point was certain... institutions have made negative images/perceptions/concepts out of positive things... snakes, Earth worship, women, men, nature and living with it (paganism)... the list goes on. My frustration is that our culture celebrates these persons/events/institutions as inherently good things... like Columbus Day. Even Christmas is a copy of winter solstice celebration. That may be a can of worms I've opened, and if so, I'll just send them to the compost pile where lots of treats await them! > >John, > actually to the whole list, since I cannot always tell who wrote >what. I am in a "men's" group that is full of EDUCATED people who >somehow feel that the ultimate insult often flung around is that >someone/thing is somehow connected to the 'patriarchy'. I have not >gotten far with reminding these men of several things. First, there >have been nurturing male traditioons that were very earth friendly, >like the 'greenman'. Secondly, there has been no real 'conspiracy' by >men against women, it is just an ignorance of historic proportions. >The real dichotomy is between exploitation and nurture, NOT between >male ideas and female ideas. Men are still almost half of the >populatioon, and this constant put-down of maleness, often by men >themselves, will not help anyone to see a new visioon, or recapture an >old one of value. As long as we are sexual beings, maleness will be a >worthwhile paart of the whole diverse picture. I refuse to accept the >judgement that equates maleness with exploitatioon! not that anyone >said that exactly, but it seems to be a prevelant idea in our society. > Bruce Ritchie >> Said witches, gardeners etc. were pagans, and it was Saint Patrick >who drove paganism (snakes) >> from Ireland....a thought to have as you raise a toast tomorrow. >Goddess-based pagans worshiped >> the snake as essential to life on Earth. Somehow the Bible authors >(King James?) made the snake >> a nasty enemy, and women the fault of all our suffering. Gee, and >here we are on a planet we've >> rendered ill. Hmmm. >> >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > Paco aka John E. Verin "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." - Dom Helder Camara From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 00:17:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21830 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:17:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA02868; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:04:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21673 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:17:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ihug.co.nz (p55-max10.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.17.117.119]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26486 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:20:10 +1300 Message-ID: <36F008EF.4E70812@ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:56:31 +1300 From: I & K Buckingham Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Calf rearing w/out the mamma References: <3.0.32.19691231140000.0104d614@pop-server> <36EFA7E8.4AEA57CD@direct.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 160 Ferdinand Vondruska wrote: > Should she develop the scours (runs) we used a raw egg yolk that we fed > directly into the mouth. We used the whole egg ( shell included ). Place over the back of the tongue and then crush. The homoeopathic remedies Arsenicum or China are of help with scour. The problem is generally not the scour but the dehydration that comes with it. Honey in water can help in this. Regards Ian Buckingham Maungatawhiri New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 03:12:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA24639 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 03:12:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA14796; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 03:02:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com [207.46.181.18]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA05758 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:36:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer - 153.37.28.69 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:38:21 -0800 Message-ID: <004c01be7101$1220d480$9f242599@oemcomputer> From: "Dr. Andrew Lorand" To: Subject: Re: soil testing Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:35:01 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 161 Dear Erica, Allan and list friends, Soil testing is, by its very nature, built upon the presumption that what you find in the soil chemically is what is available to the plants - which could be (and often is) in many cases far from the truth. Usually, soil tests verify in more or less sophisticated manner, the presence of certain chemicals, compounds, the pH level, etc. in your soils. This is for sure a starting point. But, for anyone who has gotten soil tests back that say there is plenty of this or that in the soil and then received leaf and fruit analysis that said no such correlation was to be found in the upper parts of your crop, you know that what is in the soil is not always available to the plant. (This is a common experience.) So grower beware! It takes more than just presence (of a chemical) to be a nutrient. Chemicals in most cases need to be bound in organic compounds to be available and often need to have just the right moisture content, temperature, etc. to be available. Many conditions working together. Even with our more modern and complex technology, we are just at the beginning of being able to track available nutrients. Its still pretty much a guessing game. Do testing, but dont hold your breath. It gives you an outline, no more. Furthermore, in biodynamics we are more concerned with the process, lets say the calcium process for example, than the actual calcium as a chemical element. We are looking at the calcium as a part of a living, changing, dynamic equillibrium in the soil and, more importantly, as a part of an overall set of processes that engender growth and reproduction (in the case of calcim). We dont just add calcium to the soil, but make every attempt to stimulate the exisiting calcium (and related processes) in the soil through our general farm management (crop rotations, mulching, cover crops, tillage practices, etc.), fertilization plan (composting, liquid manures, manure teas, etc.) and specialized field sprays (so-called #500 in the case of calcium). We try and stimulate the existing, add gently and moreover, work homeopathically with the substances. This means we are not only not interested particularily with the presence of any given chemical element (but rather the process, e.g. how the element is flowing through towards its tasks), but we are also not so interested in quantities. We work with highly diluted and/or potentized minute (and especially prepared) quantities of substances to stimulate the (calcium) processes in the soil and crops. This too does not speak particularilly well of soil testing. The is more to be found in our own abilities to see the calcium process at work in the crops and to know if it is weak or strong and how to encourage (or discourage) it as needed and in an appropriate manner. (Not talking clairvoyance here, but the common ability to notice the effects of the calcium processes in the shapes, colors, growth patterns of the plants.) So, soil testing? Well, I suggest getting tested when you start your farm or garden and get it done by a soil lab that your extension office recommends (usually local or regional). This will generally improve accuracy since travel time is a factor. Then do it again 5 years later. And so on. Better yet, spend much more time, effort and resources on developing an understanding of the nitrogen, calcium, silica, etc. and how to read them in the book of nature. This will be more helpful to day to day growing than any soil test ever was. Cheers, Andrew Andrew C. Lorand, Ph.D. Farmer, Gardener and Independant Consultant for Biodynamics & Ecological Agriculture Program Coordinator/Santa Rosa Junior College/Santa Rosa, CA agdoc@msn.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 03:13:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA24669 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 03:13:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA14920; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 03:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA07531 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:01:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max13-16.stc.net [208.210.137.16]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA19699 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:04:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <19990315220048.11514.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:52:21 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD No-till Is Different (Long) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 162 Guillermo writes > >Dear Hugh: > >Many thanks for your reply, I knew you were the one to ask on this one. > >Now, what I am understanding here is that the benefits of the rock dust >are mainly in its fuction as a "substrate" for earthworm action ?. How >about the action of microorganisms on rock dust to produce the >chelatization of the minerals ? (probably facilitated by the worms >work), I would assume that microorganism would benefit more from a finner >structure, is'nt so ? > >I really do not want to get caught in the chemistry (I never liked been >an employee) I only want to understand why and when it is important to use >the dust for the mineralization of the soil. As part of the >understanding, I want to know about the mechanisms and BD considerations >involved. > >The test you are suggesting about the promotion of algaee growth, could be >a good indicator, but I would bet it's results would be confounded by many >unaccounted for variables. (such as the BDO in your rain water, light >exposure and the capacity of the rock dust to hold moisture). I imagine you're right about this. In drier climes I doubt if algae would grow, at least not so fast. > >I am here confronted with a situation where I could use volcanic ash, >granite dust or basalt dust, ( could you say the three things can be >grouped as "rock dust" ?). My problem is that I do not know what would be >best or appropriate to use in a mineralization "therapy". Sure, they're all rock dusts. > > >For this therapy, I do not consider Si important, because I assume is >already abundant (other than in heavy clay soils), Steiner himself >mentioned (L2-p31) that "we can almost count on enough silica being >present to have the desired effect". The effect being "the extent to >which the soil becomes alive and develops its own chemistry". > >So if the "Silica" content of the rock powders are not all that different >(around 50 %) and we most always have enough, then what are the important >variables in re-mineralization?, What are the limiting factors ?, is it >the mineral composition of the rock ?, is it the physical properties (such >as grit for worms) or is it something else in addition to the above. An >underlying question; why and when is re-mineralization (adding rock dust) >important ? Adding rock dusts is almost always needed to rejuvenate worn out soils. You ought to ask why the earthworms thought so highly of scarffing up the quarry dust instead of relying on the abundant particulate materials already present? Why didn't they just eat the sand grains already there? There surely was something good about the granite sand. And, yes it had enough minerals in it that a sample I stirred up in water initially tested at pH 3.8. After two days in solution it tested at 8.2. Obviously some minerals were released! I hasten, however, to point out that I felt no need to resort to chemistry to tell me what it was. I didn't need to know because I knew the material was dynamite for the job I used it for, and it was $3 a pickup load. What a bargain! To think that it could be so cheap! > >A spin off question could be: If we have enough rocks, sand and mineral >dust (Silica), the soil itself through the action of the furthest forces >of the universe (life-ether and chemical-ether) the soil would balance >itself (develops it's own chemistry) ? This is a very interesting question. It should be possible, and I think today with the use of horn clay along with 500 and 501 we are much closer to being able to make this happen. One of the questions I did not get answered is the alumina content of this material. At the basis of all clays is aluminum. Aluminum is a magnet for life energies. It draws them. Put it around the outside of your chicken or potatoes and roast them and you will have something to eat that just got all the life force sucked out of it. Put it in clay and you've got soil that can really draw in life forces and become quite alive. Horn clay would "wake up" the clay already present in the soil. If there's not much clay in the soil, what little there is REALLY needs a wake up. However, if there is much clay in the soil, think what that soil might become if so much clay was really woken up! I'm of the thought that the trouble with most BD farms today is they aren't really developing very fast or very far in terms of life forces. They DO have more life forces than the farms around them, and they congratulate themselves on this and let it go. But on a scale of 1 to 100 they see their neighbors at 2 or 3 and themselves at 8 or 9 and think how far they've come when they should be thinking how far they have yet to go. > >Let me rephrase my original question: If you were in my situation, of the >three sources mentioned, what would you use ? and what elements and >mechanisms (intellectual or not) would you consider to reach your decision >? My approach is to use some of each and see what happens. For instance, back when I used the first quarry dust all my animals ate it greedily. Now the cows are indifferent, and the chickens, pigs and earthworms are not so excited either. Nor do I see such a boost in soybeans nor such a flavor improvement in the corn. I'd say I don't need it much any more. I'd see which, if any, of the rock materials gave favorable responses and how favorable. If one gave twice as favorable a response but was 10 times as expensive I'd be tempted to go for the cheaper of the two and see what using two times as much did. I've a feeling that much of this lab test stuff has people off in their heads and they are not trying things out enough to see what is practical. Phil Callahan seems to think that the paramagnetic readings a rock powder gives are one of the best tests of the value of a rock powder. At least up to a certain point. Magnetite ore is probably way to responsive to magnetism to be of use for most soils. But paramagnetism does seem to be indicative of soil that is receptive to life forces. > >I want to make it clear that I really do not want to get into an argument >here, I just want to benefit from your knowledge and experience. > >Many thanks for all your help and my warmest regards to you. > > >Guillermo Romero I. >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > One more thought Guillermo. Look again at the overall picture. There are two great streams of force at work. The growth stream that leads up vertically from the outer planets to fruit and seed, and the digestive stream that leads back down horizontally from the inner planets to the soil and fertility. A farmer needs to ask of all the things he does and all the inputs and outputs he buys in or sells out, "What is this doing for or to my my growth stream? What do I need to do to maximize my growth? And what is this doing for or to my digestive stream? What do I need to do to maximize my digestion?" And keep in mind there generally is too much to do. One needs to prioritize and figure out what does the most good for the most things out of all the options. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "If you want what visible reality can give, you're an employee. If you want the unseen world, you're not living your truth. Both wishes are foolish, but you'll be forgiven for forgetting that what you really want is love's confusing joy." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 03:14:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA24681 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 03:14:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA15015; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 03:03:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA07584 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:02:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max13-16.stc.net [208.210.137.16]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA19712 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:04:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000e01be70d2$fda75e80$731a2599@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:40:24 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 163 Andrew writes: >Friends, > >I started this thread with the hope that folks would contribute to the >discussion around the notion, that somehow there must be a spiritual lesson >in the GMO story - AND - hopefully something positive to set our energy >into. I suggested that the research and development into genetics and >biotech of various kinds, was mainly about getting a handle on the life >processes (or life forces; speak: the etheric), rather than just on >manipulating a specific plant's gene pool or making lots of money through >genetic copyrights, patents and other forms of monopolies. I was hoping for >some reflective feedback - and still am. > >My hope was further, that we might look together at the potential >implications of our biodynamic work as a counterbalance (specifically around >developing insight into life forces) to the GMO work being done. >Specifically, what kinds of work are you all doing around studying, >experiencing, working with the etheric forces? How is it that these >corporations and government agencies, universities and private companies are >spending these huge amounts of money on discovering how to plants >with materialistic means only? Are we able to develop new plants, healthier >plants, new varieties, etc. through other means? By working with spiritual, >rather than just material forces and substances? Can we begin to discuss >this part of biodyanmics? > >Curious, >Andrew Here's one spiritual lesson that slaps me in the face. The mind involuntarily rejects information that is contrary to its assumptions. One of the most telling assumptions pervading our world today is that the winning strategies are uniformity and competition. We see it in the world of sports with teams all dressed in uniforms competing. We see it in our schools with all our standardized testing, uniform curricula and competition for top scores. We see it in the military, in the job place, in the supermarket and shopping mall, you name it. Yet, if we look at a fertile natural ecology we would see, could we only set this assumption aside, that the winning strategy is diversity and cooperation. We would see it in sports if we played chess with the masters, or in education in a Waldorf school, etc. One of the key things that makes America as successful as it is (if not good, at least better than most) is we have such a diverse population and more often than not we cooperate (though nowhere near as well as they cooperate in Japan). It should be easy to see that almost all plant breeding (not Alan Kapuler's) is done with an eye to this pan cultural assumption that the winning strategies are uniformity and competition. F1 hybrids were a big step in this direction of uniformity and competition, and surely this was a winning strategy for a number of companies and their investors, though a losing strategy for most of us. GMOs, however, really is a million rocket salute to the twin Gods of uniformity and competition. As such it will really land us in quicksand and that will be a teriffic spiritual lesson. As for whether we are able to develop new plants, healthier plants, new varieties, etc. through other means? Surely! Many folks seem to forget, perhaps some WANT to forget, that in 1987 Barbara McClintock won the Nobel prize in genetics for proving that corn mutated in every generation. "Well, that's only corn. That's not anything else." said the many, fearful of their jobs and the overthrow of their life's work. For several reasons the open pollenated Indian corn McClintock used was a very easy plant to prove that mutation, most of it benign or even beneficial, occurs with every new generation. But Rudolf Steiner in lecture two says in effect that this is the situation with all plants, and we may presume all organisms. Folks producing GMOs and patenting organisms involuntarily reject this information seeing as how it is contrary to their assumptions. They don't even notice the information. After all, if they saw things as they truly are it would blow their whole game, and would give them an inkling of what a scarry Pandora's Box they are lifting the lid of. The spiritual lesson here? One of the more valuable things we can do spiritually is to examine our assumptions and start discarding, cleaning up, opening our minds and utilizing our senses--all of them. Regards, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "If you want what visible reality can give, you're an employee. If you want the unseen world, you're not living your truth. Both wishes are foolish, but you'll be forgiven for forgetting that what you really want is love's confusing joy." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 03:15:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA24696 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 03:15:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA15137; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 03:04:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheddar.direct.ca (cheddar.direct.ca [199.60.229.16]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA08114 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:07:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0112.direct.ca ([204.244.83.12] helo=direct.ca) by cheddar.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #20) id 10NW07-0006Ts-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:09:52 -0800 Message-ID: <36F094A3.75F28610@direct.ca> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:52:35 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Spring Equinox (and a bit - way - OFF) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 164 To Pandora-Liz So my friend you think you have it good that's what your little poem gave to understood! When here, we bask in snow and cold another winterstorm shall come, I'm told! However, people, snow is fun for those that speed donw speedy run' I wouldn't want to have your sun I would all day just sweat and moan. We've been assured you lazy .ums That I must use my largest drums To get you out of bed and sleep And throw you into water deep You lazy pair shall awaken like us all as arrogance arrives before a fall...... All the best Ferdinand (visited by Deborah Byron!! hahahahaha, I have it much better than you guys) PatandLiz@aol.com wrote: > Signs of Spring at 21 degrees N: > > in January.... > The cardinals began their mating songs. > Mango trees didn't bloom as they usually do. > Time to plant cucumbers, summer squash, and snow peas. > > in February.... > Cardinal's songs increase. > Not as rainy as January. > Shower tree pods start dropping. > November pole beans finally finished. > > in March.... > Birdsong all day long. > Begin harvesting cukes, peas and squash. > Some days the sun is uncomfortable between 12 and 2. > Chickens really start to "crank." > Weed and grass growth accelerate. > > Ke'anae, Maui. ' 99 > Patrick -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 03:15:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA24705 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 03:15:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA15302; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 03:04:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA08533 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:13:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0112.direct.ca ([204.244.83.12] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10NW6d-0003vH-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:16:36 -0800 Message-ID: <36F09624.1256520A@direct.ca> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:59:00 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Imants spader plow->Humus Management References: <36EEF5A7.3A18F28F@cyberhighway.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 165 Dear Pam, The Roto-Tiller smashes the entire infrastructure of the soil (worms, soil bacteria, plants - you name it) and they get totally mixed into a dust-bowl. Whereas the soil structure after plowing or truning by spade leaves the soil (especially clay) with a somewhat intact soil structure. I would ask you to run a test. Dig two to three rows by hand and then, next to it, run the Roto-Tiller. And now, observe. Don't seed, do not do anything to this part of the garden. And, please, report back. We cannot intelectually understand the different methods. We have to DO IT and observe. That's the American way of life, isn't it. WE Europeans would give (now) one hundred theories. All the best Ferdinand Pam DeTray wrote: > Allan, > > Could you backtrack a bit for those of us unfamiliar with this subject? > I think I understand what the basic principle is here, but I don't > understand WHY a person wants to spade clumps instead of rototilling to > aerate? Is it to protect the bio-organisms in the soil? Is it to prevent > erosion, or soil blowaway? Does a spader create something more like a > raised bed? > (I did look at the site you posted last Christmas on the Tortella > spader, and wish you could post that URL again.) > > Two of us are doing all the work by hand here this spring, and though > I'm dreading the strain on my back, I won't miss the noise of the > tiller. But in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, "What if someone > wanted to start up a large market garden to feed 50 local families?" > It's all hard clay around here, and you would need a plow. Is that more > like tilling or spading? > > Thanks, > Pam DeTray > psdetray@cyberhighway.net > > Intergalactic Garage wrote: > > > > >BD-NOW Readers, > > > > > >The original thread was No till versus Double digging. > > >In the ensuing discussion, mechanical spaders were > > >mentioned as viable implements at the commercial scale. > > > > IMANTS does not make a spader, they only SAY they make a spader. What they > > sell is simply an overpriced 'rotivator.' It is very important for anyone > > looking for a spading machine to realize that the IMANTS product is simply > > that: a product. The Imants machine (a 'dutch spader') pales in comparison > > to an Italian spader. WE A/B'd these machines at the 1997 Mid-Atlantic > > Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference. We purchased the Tortella > > (Italian) spader as a result. Once again: Italian spaders 'spade' the soil > > but the Imants machine churns it. (Not only that, it incorporates organic > > materials too deeply in the soil. > > > > -Allan Balliett > > igg@igg.com -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 03:16:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA24723 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 03:16:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA15402; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 03:05:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA09496 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:28:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (whan-038.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.138]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA04161 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:28:04 +1300 Message-ID: <003201be7107$5da8b5c0$8af631ca@oemcomputer> From: "g&y bodle" To: Subject: Re: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:56:05 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 166 Dear Andrew, Good point, I agree that there must be a BD counterbalance. As ever time limits the extent to which I feel I can contribute in depth, but I do believe that there are insights and indications in chap 1&2 that give a glimmer of the remedial possibilities that BD has to offer. (I am still going to follow this up for you Andrew- I havent forgotten!) We have to investigate the means by which life is a formative expression in the physical realm of the wholly cosmic/spiritual. I believe the models exist in those chapters. Cheers Gareth Bodle Whangarei NZ ----Original Message----- From: Dr. Andrew Lorand To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, 18 March 1999 1:09 PM Subject: OFF: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives >Friends, > >I started this thread with the hope that folks would contribute to the >discussion around the notion, that somehow there must be a spiritual lesson >in the GMO story - AND - hopefully something positive to set our energy >into. I suggested that the research and development into genetics and >biotech of various kinds, was mainly about getting a handle on the life >processes (or life forces; speak: the etheric), rather than just on >manipulating a specific plant's gene pool or making lots of money through >genetic copyrights, patents and other forms of monopolies. I was hoping for >some reflective feedback - and still am. > >My hope was further, that we might look together at the potential >implications of our biodynamic work as a counterbalance (specifically around >developing insight into life forces) to the GMO work being done. >Specifically, what kinds of work are you all doing around studying, >experiencing, working with the etheric forces? How is it that these >corporations and government agencies, universities and private companies are >spending these huge amounts of money on discovering how to plants >with materialistic means only? Are we able to develop new plants, healthier >plants, new varieties, etc. through other means? By working with spiritual, >rather than just material forces and substances? Can we begin to discuss >this part of biodyanmics? > >Curious, >Andrew > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 06:21:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA26017 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:21:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA26192; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:04:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.156]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA26076 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:01:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [151.196.125.82] (client-151-196-125-82.bellatlantic.net [151.196.125.82]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA27961 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:03:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903181103.GAA27961@smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 05:53:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Off: request Swiss CSA contacts From: "Steven McFadden" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 167 Thank you so much Ferdinand. Best, Steven ---------- >From: Ferdinand Vondruska >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Re: Off: request Swiss CSA contacts >Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999, 7:43 PM > > Dear Steven, > I have contacted Demeter Germany to see whether they can give me the Demeter > Switzerland address. Thereafter, I shall forward it to you. Regards Ferdinand > > Steven McFadden wrote: > >> Hi - >> >> A US reporter has contacted me seeking leads to CSA farms in Switzerland. >> She is planning a trip there in the Autumn, and wants to write something on >> the subject. >> >> If you have any contacts in Switzerland, or promising leads, please let me >> know by e-mail and I will forward the messages on to her. >> >> With thanks, Steven > > -- > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-= > -=-=-= > > C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO > AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR > WORLD > FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 06:21:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA26025 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:21:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA26134; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:02:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.156]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA26071 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:01:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [151.196.125.82] (client-151-196-125-82.bellatlantic.net [151.196.125.82]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA27939 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:03:37 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903181103.GAA27939@smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 05:52:50 -0500 Subject: Re: OFF: request Swiss CSA contacts From: "Steven McFadden" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 168 Thank you Andrew. I have already forwarded your good lead. Best, Steven ---------- >From: "Dr. Andrew Lorand" >To: >Subject: OFF: request Swiss CSA contacts >Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999, 7:19 PM > > Steven, > > Write the Goetheanum, specifically the Agriculture Department, Natural > Sciences Section - try perhaps Mr. Markus Huter and ask for addresses, > numbers, etc. of community farms in CH. science_goetheanum@compuserve.com is > the email address. > > Cheers, > Andrew > > > >>Hi - >> >>A US reporter has contacted me seeking leads to CSA farms in Switzerland. >>She is planning a trip there in the Autumn, and wants to write something on >>the subject. >> >>If you have any contacts in Switzerland, or promising leads, please let me >>know by e-mail and I will forward the messages on to her. >> >>With thanks, Steven >> > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 07:11:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA26535 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:11:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA29150; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:59:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from cask.force9.net (cask.force9.net [195.166.128.29]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA28867 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:58:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903181158.GAA28867@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 20783 invoked from network); 18 Mar 1999 12:06:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO coors.free-online.net) (212.56.108.80) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 18 Mar 1999 12:06:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 18693 invoked from network); 18 Mar 1999 11:53:04 -0000 Received: from 497.hiper04.access.free-online.net (HELO ?212.56.117.241?) (212.56.117.241) by coors.free-online.net with SMTP; 18 Mar 1999 11:53:04 -0000 Subject: Re: OFF: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 12:02:33 +0000 x-sender: elementalsols@mail.free-online.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Mark Moodie To: "BD list Postings" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id GAA28869 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 169 Dr. Andrew Lorand wrote;- >I started this thread with the hope that folks would contribute to the >discussion around the notion, that somehow there must be a spiritual lesson >in the GMO story - AND - hopefully something positive to set our energy >into. The BD seed breeding is the other side of the GM coin. There are new forces available for this since the end of Kali Yuga (see lecture II) and we cannot expect that only the 'goodies' will recognise this. We need to use the cunning of the Monsantos and change it to idealistic insight, the greed of the Monsantos and compost it into good basic research for future BD seed breeders, and the energy of the Monsantos we need to use ourselves. I talked to a farmer at Botton last week who was in our seed breeding group since the Wilhelm-Schmidts talked to us 10 years ago. He sold UK£10,000 of BD seeds last year! Ths is slow and careful work. GM has really flushed out the materialists who have been bashful before. They are saying boldly that life is a epiphenomenon of chemistry, plants are DNA plus NPK. They are likely to be strong for a long time but at least they are fully out in thte open and ultimately vulnerable to those who can think for themselves. I do think this GM work and computers are the major symptoms of the 1998 events. It s another crossroads - a 'threshold' defined as a line beynd which is the unknown but we have to cross it to grow and things will never be the same again after making the crossing. Mark Moodie mark.es@aecb.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 07:50:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA26783 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:50:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA01232; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:32:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01015 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-121.s58.as1.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.121]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id HAA18847 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:32:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36F0F1C2.EBC7AF51@erols.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:29:54 -0500 From: Rex Harrill Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: raw food BDers? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 170 Intergalactic Garage wrote: > I think that Rex Harrill, of this list, is an authority on this [raw eating]. Jeez, Allan---an "authority?" Well, I'm a simple student and must decline the honor. However, I do follow the 'raw eating' newsgroups and will be happy to pass subscription info to anyone interested. At the moment I'm trying to digest (pun) Andy Lorand's comments yesterday about Steiner's views on the subject. Regards, Rex Harrill From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 07:56:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA26838 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA01691; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:38:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01418 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:35:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.116] (pm3shep2-163-77.intrepid.net [209.190.163.77]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA30397; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:38:33 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:40:18 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: OFF: Reader Beware: Suffering the Illusion of Empowerment Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 171 Reprinted from "Internet: The Illusion of Empowerment" by Jerry Mander (Appearing in "Whole Earth Winter 98 from Whole Earth 888 732-6739 or on major newstands now. Jerry Mander is the author of 'In the Absence of the Sacred' and 'Four Arguments Against Television.' He is a profound thinker, one of the few of we fish willing to question water. -AB) Technospiritualism, though I favor the older kind that doesn't require mediation by machines. As for the idea that the old political center has been wiped out by our PCs and email, and that web politics has brought us a computerenhanced democracy, let me ask this: Shouldn't we call it "virtual democracy"? I think so. Because somebody forgot to tell the transnational corporations in Tokyo, New York, Brussels, and Geneva that the real power was no longer in the center, that it was now out of their control. Two hundred corporations now control twenty-eight per cent of global economic activity; twenty-four corporations are among the hundred largest economies of the world, far larger than many countries. The computer has had a crucial role to play in this, as have the big new global trade agreements, which have deregulated all controls on international banking, investment, and capital movement. Corporations are now free to use the new global technologies to move their assets around the world, instantaneously, at the touch of a key, without the ability of nation-states to observe, control, or slow them down. Some people understand this, notably among the right wing. Dr. Joe Cobb of the Heritage Foundation once told me that because of technology, corporate-led globalization is "inevitable." It can't be stopped (presumably because technology itself "can't be stopped," yet one more paradigm worth examining). So, what kind of revolution do we have here? To use terms like "empowerment" to summarize the effects of computers is to badly misrepresent what power is about in a real political and economic context. Computers may help individuals feet powerful or competent and surely they are useful; nobody denies this. But this does nothing whatever to balance the ultimate drift of the technology, to help gather staggering new power in the hands of giant corporations, banks, and global trade bureaucracies, all made possible by these same instruments. In my view, computer technology will eventually be understood by all of us, as it already is by the right wing, as the greatest centralizing technology ever invented. For while we sit happily at our PCs editing our copy, sending our emails, designing our little web pages, transnational corporations are using their global networks twenty-four hours a day, at a scale and a speed that makes our level of empowerment seem pathetic by comparison. The giant transnationats of today simply could not exist without the global computer networks. When they push their computer keys, they cause hundreds of billions of dollars in resources to move from, say, a bank in Geneva to Sarawak, resulting in a forest cut down. Or else they push a key and buy billions of dollars of a national currency, only to sell it again a few hours later, leaving countries' economies in shambles, and populations devastated. That is information with power. Information by itself is for the disempowered; and the Internet is our opiate. The question we have to learn to ask about new technology is not whether it benefits us, but whom does it benefit most? For despite its usefulness to us in many activities, the electronic revolution has far more to offer the largest enterprises on the planet than it does to you and me; we suffer a net loss from its emergence as the new global nervous system. Reprinted from "Internet: The Illusion of Empowerment" by Jerry Mander (Appearing in "Whole Earth Winter 98 from Whole Earth 888 732-6739 or on major newstands now.) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 08:25:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA27190 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:25:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA05005; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:15:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04729 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:12:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.009FCFAB@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 8:15:28 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 18 Mar 99 08:15:24 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 18 Mar 99 08:15:17 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:15:13 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Spring Equinox Priority: normal In-reply-to: <4.1.19990317110215.00930670@mail.kootenay.com> In-reply-to: <4.1.19990317110215.00930670@mail.kootenay.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 172 I just want to mention how sweet and soft the air smells here in Athens, GA lately (just in case you don't know, it has been freezing quite often up till now and we even had snow a couple weeks ago!) And being a newcomer here, I'm thrilled with all the interesting greens and flowers that are popping up voluntarily all over my front yard (don't even mention a lawn mower to me!). And my yard is alive with the hussle and bussle of birds and squirills (sp?). It's so interesting to be passing a Spring in a new place. Anita > Listfolk: > > The Spring Equinox happens Saturday, March 20, 5:45 PM our time here in > British Columbia. > What signs of Spring have we all been observing? Never mind bragging, you > guys south of the 30 degrees Latitude...I know it's been Spring there for > some time. > > Signs of Spring here at Aurora Farm: > > * Lilacs, serviceberry, Balm of Gilead buds swelling; > * Crocus and snowdrops blooming; > * Robins and Towhees singing; > * A bald eagle soaring over our hilltop yesterday; > * A couple of nights lately when it didn't drop below freezing... > > Ahhhhhh! > > Woody > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 09:29:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA28299 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:29:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10031; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:12:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.157]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09747 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:09:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from [151.196.125.218] (client-151-196-125-218.bellatlantic.net [151.196.125.218]) by smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA01194 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:14:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903181414.JAA01194@smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:12:07 -0500 Subject: Re: GEO Consensus - BDNow From: "Steven McFadden" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id JAA09752 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 173 Dear Colleagues, As suggested by Jane Sherry, in the wake of the New Moon here is draft #2 of a BD Now consensus statement on GEOs. Not too much input yet. I've lifted some thoughts from related threads on this list. But I still feel we are capable of greater spiritual insight into these questions. By all means indulge your inclinations to propose, rewrite, revise and counter-propose. The thread will remain open for change and addition until April 15. Best, Steven GEO Consensus - BD Now - Draft #2 3/18/99 We, the undersigned participants in the BD-Now electronic mail group, make the following collective statement about genetically engineered organisms, whether seeds, plants or animals: We understand that a unifying wisdom spreads throughout nature, and that this wisdom has led to the gradual evolution of a multitude of healthy living organisms which populate the earth, including human beings. We recognize that human beings are in a complex physical and spiritual relationship with all of these organisms, and that our mutual survival, health, and evolution depends upon the integrity of these relationships. This wisdom of nature - understood by some as the wisdom of Spirit - far surpasses the accumulated data on which GEO experimentation and propagation are founded . Yet this wisdom is systematically overlooked in the large organizations and laboratories which are increasingly engineering the gene pool and thereby radically altering the basic character of plant and animal nature, and of human food. We recognize that: … Little is known about the possible short- and long-term effects of GEOs on human health and the environment. … There are profound risks to animals and humans -- such as the spread of toxins, allergies or resistance to antibiotics -- from the ingestion of genetically modified food. … Genetically engineered organisms threaten to overtake, displace or modify native species, reducing the variety of the gene pool and increasing, rather than reducing, the perceived need for herbicides, fungicides or other toxic treatments. … We are deeply concerned about the impact on the environment including pollen drift contamination of organic and Biodynamic crops from genetically engineered crops. Once these genes are released they cannot be recalled. … Genetically engineered organisms could potentially cause profound mutations in the genetic structure of plant, animal, and human realms -- and thereby dull or even destroy the patterns and impulses set in motion by the wisdom of Spirit. The introduction of genetically modified foodstuffs without proper and appropriate labeling is foolish, potentially dangerous, immoral, illicit and unacceptable . We stand in unified opposition to the disrespectful and fundamentally anti-democratic impulse of business and science to rush these experiments out into the natural world, and into the food chain for humans and animals with no notice, no debate, and no choice. #### END #### From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 10:28:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29690 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:28:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18435; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:10:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18236 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:08:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d143.infoserve.net [199.175.157.143]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA06175; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:14:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004701be7151$9ede21c0$8f9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Cc: Subject: Fw: OFF/ GE Canola / GEN3-17 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:11:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 174 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 3:44 AM Subject: GEN3-17 > >March 17, 1999 > >Canada Approved Genetically Modified Canola Tolerant to an Herbicide >Causing Birth Defects > >by Joe Cummins, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Genetics, University of Western >Ontario >e-mail: jcummins@julian.uwo.ca > >Canada has approved genetically engineered canola patented by the >multinational chemical company Rhone Poulenc for their herbicides Bromoxynl >and Ioxynil. The herbicide Bromoxynil has a history of controversy in its >use after it was found that it caused birth defects in rats and mice. > >In the United States, the use of Bromoxynl on cotton was a source of >controversy. However, in Canada (where government departments of >Agriculture and Health take multimillion dollar payments from chemical >companies) the herbicide was quietly approved and used extensively to >control weeds in grain crops that are innately tolerant to the herbicide. > >The herbicide Bromoxynl is sprayed on the Bromoxynl-resistant canola. As >the herbicide is very persistent in treated soil, when farmers rotate >crops, Bromoxynl residues can accumulate in grains rotated on the same >land. > >Residues of the teratogenic herbicide are likely to accumulate in the >harvested canola oil and in the cattle and pig food from the residues >recovered from pressing canola seed to recover oil. Such pressing >residues have also been used as fertilizer on organic farms, a procedure >that should be reviewed on the basis of transferring genetic modifications >and teratogenic herbicides. > >The journal Biotechnology noted that there was a very high likelihood >that the herbicide tolerant gene would be transferred to unpatented canola >and to at least seven wild plant species but the transfer to wild plant was >a minimal threat as the resistant species could be controlled by other >herbicides as they became weeds. > >The impact of use of the genetically modified crop on biodiversity was >given brief discussion with no data and no fundamental knowledge of >biodiversity. > >Another genetically modified canola, Liberty Ready canola, also employs a >highly teratogenic herbicide glufosinate. Importers of canola oil or animal >feed from pressed seed should be made aware of these developments and that >the products are not labeled. Clearly the Canadian approval process bears >the stamp of the millions of dollars from chemical companies. > >The information on approval of Bromoxynil resistant canola was taken from >Plant Biotechnology Canada August 19,1998 > >.......... > >ASHDOWN URGES SPECIAL WTO GROUP ON GENETIC FOODS GENEVA, > >March 11 (Reuters) - Britain's outgoing Liberal Democratic leader Paddy >Ashdown said on Thursday the controversial issue of genetically-modified >crops should be part of the next global round of trade liberalisation >talks. > >Speaking after talks at the World Trade Organisation (WTO) and with trade >ambassadors of the European Union and the United States, he warned tha >t the issue could become a "huge problem" that could poison relations >between the two powers. >"The WTO regulations were not set up to handle GMOs," he told a news >conference, using the acronym for genetically-modified organisms which are >rapidly emerging as a potentially explosive topic in international trade. > >........ > > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic/geindex.html >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 for 12 months, payable to "BanGEF" and mailed to the above >address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 10:45:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00143 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:45:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22519; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:34:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22187 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:33:09 -0500 (EST) From: JHatf18942@aol.com Received: from JHatf18942@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hKOUa04840 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:34:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <163fa8f.36f11d0e@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:34:38 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: BD No-till Is Different (Long) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 86 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 175 I apologize if I missed something but could someone fill me in on horn clay? Thanks Jeff Hatfield From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 12:09:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02589 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:09:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05161; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:59:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05058 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:58:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp50.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.150]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA26602 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:58:54 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <004e01be7160$7a883ae0$964b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie M." To: "BD NOW LIST" Subject: Astro-Agriculture Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:57:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 176 Hi everyone.. Thought I'd pose some thoughts & questions to those sky-gazing farmers amongst us. Here, dairy farmers have just been slammed with a record drop in the Basic Price Formula (BFP) for February. Since I am a student of the stars, and the cows themselves, the milk production & pricing seems to follow as oppty. to gain further insights into this mysterious cycle. (Sorry, I'm in tropical mode, but am a neophyte, and I do pay homage to the siderealist system, by planting by their calendar:-)) The likes of this "crash" have not been seen since 5/5/91. In comparing the two dates, both times Saturn was in early degrees of fixed signs & within a wide 7-degree orb of hard aspect to cardinal moons (3/5/99 - Saturn @ 0 Taurus opposed a 22-degree Libran moon. On 5/5/91 Saturn @ 6 Aquarius conjuncted a 29-degree Capricorn moon. Both times the aspects were at wide 7-degree orbs and applying. Interestingly, this most recent drop is the largest month-to-month decline ever, but is the 7th lowest price paid this decade. The govt. is stepping in with a Dairy Income Loss Assistance program, but the payment plan is fuzzy & no one will be seeing any real cash for quite awhile. As a result, expect to see MORE small family farms bite the dust, as it is they that are closest to living from milk check to milk check. This reminds me of Steven's note about Saturn entering very earthy, very agricultural Taurus, and the struggles we can expect to see. The other thing that is striking to me, is the recent movement of Neptune (chemicals, delusion) into scientific, intellectual, detached Aquarius. This seems to me to be the perfect setting for Monsanto & GE to challenge the truly traditional earthy agricultural methods (and in fact the actual 90-degree square that is about to occur between Neptune in Aquarius & Saturn in Taurus portends such a challenge!) Clearly Monsanto & its scientists are deceiving (possibly even self-delusion, that this technology will, in fact, feed the world - again, a humanitarian (Aquarian) representation, and much of the world is deluded, or apathetic at best. One more thing... I was really happy (finally a wonderful answer!) to read Glen's post to Parker about Tropical charts representing a more mundane view of an individual, and sidereal charts a clearer inner goal (did I understand this correctly?) then perhaps there is some insight to be gained into a sidereal assessment of what's happening w/agriculture? Because perhaps that is where the answer lies...what is happening here on a collective, inner level? So is this too weird? What say you spiritual, star-watching servants of the earth? Searching, Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 12:40:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03292 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:40:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08311; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:23:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07954 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:21:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max1-6.stc.net [208.210.131.6]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA21171 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:24:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004c01be7101$1220d480$9f242599@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:00:32 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: soil testing Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 177 Andrew wrote: > >Dear Erica, Allan and list friends, > >Soil testing is, by its very nature, built upon the presumption that what >you find in the soil chemically is what is available to the plants - which >could be (and often is) in many cases far from the truth. Usually, soil >tests verify in more or less sophisticated manner, the presence of certain >chemicals, compounds, the pH level, etc. in your soils. This is for sure a >starting point. But, for anyone who has gotten soil tests back that say >there is plenty of this or that in the soil and then received leaf and fruit >analysis that said no such correlation was to be found in the upper parts of >your crop, you know that what is in the soil is not always available to the >plant. (This is a common experience.) So grower beware! It takes more than >just presence (of a chemical) to be a nutrient. Chemicals in most cases need >to be bound in organic compounds to be available and often need to have just >the right moisture content, temperature, etc. to be available. Many >conditions working together. Even with our more modern and complex >technology, we are just at the beginning of being able to track available >nutrients. Its still pretty much a guessing game. Do testing, but don't hold >your breath. It gives you an outline, no more. > >Furthermore, in biodynamics we are more concerned with the process, lets say >the calcium process for example, than the actual calcium as a chemical >element. We are looking at the calcium as a part of a living, changing, >dynamic equillibrium in the soil and, more importantly, as a part of an >overall set of processes that engender growth and reproduction (in the case >of calcim). We dont just add calcium to the soil, but make every attempt to >stimulate the exisiting calcium (and related processes) in the soil through >our general farm management (crop rotations, mulching, cover crops, tillage >practices, etc.), fertilization plan (composting, liquid manures, manure >teas, etc.) and specialized field sprays (so-called #500 in the case of >calcium). We try and stimulate the existing, add gently and moreover, work >homeopathically with the substances. This means we are not only not >interested particularily with the presence of any given chemical element >(but rather the process, e.g. how the element is flowing through towards its >tasks), but we are also not so interested in quantities. We work with highly >diluted and/or potentized minute (and especially prepared) quantities of >substances to stimulate the (calcium) processes in the soil and crops. This >too does not speak particularilly well of soil testing. The is more >to be found in our own abilities to see the calcium process at work in the >crops and to know if it is weak or strong and how to encourage (or >discourage) it as needed and in an appropriate manner. (Not talking >clairvoyance here, but the common ability to notice the effects of the >calcium processes in the shapes, colors, growth patterns of the plants.) > >So, soil testing? Well, I suggest getting tested when you start your farm or >garden and get it done by a soil lab that your extension office recommends >(usually local or regional). This will generally improve accuracy since >travel time is a factor. Then do it again 5 years later. And so on. Better >yet, spend much more time, effort and resources on developing an >understanding of the nitrogen, calcium, silica, etc. and how to >read them in the book of nature. This will be more helpful to day to day >growing than any soil test ever was. Well stated, Andrew! What you say about the processes, and working with stimulating the processes rather than focusing on the amounts of this or that present, cuts to the core of biodynamics--which, after all, is concerned with life processes, not dead weights. It took me minutes lost in admiration before I realized there was something to add. One of the most crucial oversights in biodynamics as it is practiced today--and this stems from the spiritual problem most of us have of congratulating ourselves that we know so much when we ought to focus on how much MORE we could learn--is we talk about the silica process and the lime process and neglect the importance of clay. The agriculture course states the importance of clay in chapter two. Of course this slim volume of lectures uses a paragraph or two to mention a core idea that deserves volumes and lifetimes of investigation. Here are some pertinent quotes: "However else clay may be described, however else we must treat it so that it becomes fertile--all this is of secondary importance; the primary thing we need to know is that clay promotes the upward stream of the cosmic factor." (page 31) and: "Let me remark here that if we are dealing with a soil that does not carry these influences upward during the winter as it should, it is good to furnish the soil with some clay, the dosage of which I will indicate later." (page 33) Later the recommendations for making preparations for the lime polarity (Horn manure, BD 500) and the silica polarity (Horn silica, BD 501) are given in chapter fou. However, the recommendations for enlivening clay are forgotten. It is a peculiar thing, though illustrative of human nature, that 75 years have gone by and BD practice throughout the world has worked with 500 and 501 stimulating the lime and silica processes, yet ever so little has been done to wake up the clay process. And yet enlivened clay is the key to preparing the soil "to conducting the crystaline force upward, for the plant growth above the earth's surface" (page 33). If agricultural practice was rated on a scale of 1 to 100, our conventional neighbors would rate about 2 or 3, and we've congratulated ourselves on our 8 or 9 rating that we are 3 or 4 times better than conventional--when we should be focusing on how far we have to go. I keep coming back to Pfeiffer's preface to the blue-bound edition previous to the modern Creeger/Gardener translation: "'How can it happen that the spiritual impulse, and especially the inner schooling, for which you are constantly providing stimulus and guidance bear so little fruit? Why do the people concerned give so little evidence of spiritual experience, in spite of all their efforts? Why, worst of all, is the will for action, for the carrying out of these spiritual impulses, so weak?' I was particularly anxious to get an answer to the question as to how one could build a bridge to active participation and the carrying out of spiritual intentions without being pulled off the right path by personal ambition, illusions and petty jealousies; for these were the negative qualities Rudolf Steiner had named as the main inner hindrances. Then came the surprising and thought-provoking answer: 'This is a problem of nutrition. Nutrition as it is today does not supply the strength necessary for manifesting the spirit in physical life. A bridge can no longer be built from thinking to will and action. Food plants no longer contain the forces people need for this.'" When one considers the glacial progress of biodynamics over the past 75 years and the extent to which personal ambitions, illusions and petty jealousies have gotten in the way I'm afraid this shows how inadequate BD food has been in nourishing spiritual progress. That is, the current state of the art of biodynamics isn't up to the job yet. Come on, folks. There isn't much time left. Don't you feel an urgency? There's a crying need for biodynamic HORN CLAY. We can't just wake up our lime and silica. That's like having a teeter totter with no balance point in the middle--it's not a good game. We've got to wake up our clay. Now I realize there's always, in any profession, a tendency on the part of many to "stick to the book." So there will be much criticism and rejection of this idea with phrases like "Steiner didn't give any recommendations for horn clay." and "That's not the way I learned biodynamics." and even "That's no longer biodynamics." To which I respond, my mother could bake a German chocolate cake to perfection, melting her chocolate in a double boiler with butter, measuring the exact amount of this and that, whipping up that lemony/vanilla corn starch filler between the layers and that tasty outside glaze coating with egg yolk, coconut and chopped walnuts in it. The recipe is on the chocolate package if you buy the right kind, and she was a good cook with a recipe. However, when I became a chef on the oil rigs I used to make this kind of cake using hand and eye to measure things since the consistency of ingredients tends to vary somewhat anyway and I made bigger cakes in bigger pans than the recipe called for. I used sourdough batter and some freshly crushed cardamom seeds, and it's amazing the rich moistness and delicate, almost minty spiciness this brought to the cake. It was creative fun to make cakes that the drill crews, mud loggers, roughnecks, etc. would (not quite) die for. We sorely need to take biodynamics out of the days of following rote formulas into a much subtler, artistic, creative mode. It will require a much greater understanding, as well as a willingness to use some new ingredients suggested though not prescribed back at the birth of BD. Then we'll see BD farms move forward to 30 or 40 or even 80 or 90 on our scale of 1 to 100. We'll have to raise children on this superfood for the full effects to show up in terms of manifesting the spiritual in physical life. So that means there's a lot of lead time before we fully see where this will take us, and there's no time to lose getting started. Mankind could have a lot in store for it. Isn't life inspiring? Warmest regards, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "If you want what visible reality can give, you're an employee. If you want the unseen world, you're not living your truth. Both wishes are foolish, but you'll be forgiven for forgetting that what you really want is love's confusing joy." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 12:52:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03569 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:52:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10388; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:35:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09770 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:32:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.141] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.141]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.11.13.11.10) with ESMTP id <0F8S00473W5FNU@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:20:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:23:35 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: BD No-till Is Different (Long) In-reply-to: <163fa8f.36f11d0e@aol.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA09780 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 178 >I apologize if I missed something but could someone fill me in on horn clay? > >Thanks >Jeff Hatfield For Sure you have: Greg Willis is the guy responsible for the creation of this new BD prep that He named Horn Clay. For details on how to make the prep, when to bury the horns and how to use it, Greg posted a number of times the info to this list, (the last time back in November 1998). My suggestion is to do a search in the archives of BD-Now using the Horn Clay argument. I do not know if Greg has any legal protection or right on that info, but certainly he is the moral owner of the concept and the creator of the theoretical framework. Hope this helps. Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 13:38:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA04888 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:38:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19887; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:27:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19280 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:24:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max16-33.stc.net [208.210.138.161]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA29896 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:27:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <163fa8f.36f11d0e@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:04:43 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD No-till Is Different (Long) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 179 >I apologize if I missed something but could someone fill me in on horn clay? > >Thanks >Jeff Hatfield I imagine not much has been said about horn clay on this list. There are 4 possibilities in making horn clay. Summer (Spring to Fall) horn clay involves packing cow horns with clay and burying them from spring to fall. This will really wake up the clay in the soil making it a means of transport for silica forces moving upward into plants. Winter (Fall to Spring) horn clay is made by packing cow horns with clay and burying them from fall to spring. This stimulates clay's role in absorbing the crystalizing forces, carrying these crystalizing forces upward from deep down during the winter. This has an especially strong effect on plant growth. Guillermo writes: > >Greg Willis is the guy responsible for the creation of this new BD prep >that >He named Horn Clay. For details on how to make the prep, when to >bury the >horns and how to use it, Greg posted a number of times the info >to this list, >(the last time back in November 1998). My suggestion is to >do a search in the >archives of BD-Now using the Horn Clay argument. >I do not know if Greg has any legal protection or right on that info, but >>certainly he is the moral owner of the concept and the creator of the >>theoretical framework. The inspiration for Horn Clay comes out of the Agriculture Course with a discussion on pages 31 and 32 about the role of clay and the promise of giving recommendations for clay dosages later in the course--a promise that was not fulfilled. Nevertheless later in the course a discussion of making horn manure and horn silica, pages 70 through 74, points the way to making horn clay preparations. Greg is, so far as anyone I'm aware of knows, the first person to realize the crucial importance of horn clay and to make it and use it. My impression upon visiting a vinyard (Topolos, at the winery) in California treated with horn clay was that it brought together the lime and silica polarities and unified the life forces of the vinyard, providing a skin or outer membrane and strength to the sinews and connective tissues of the vine plot. It was an extraordinary experience, and I might add, VERY tasty grapes. For 75 years in biodynamics we have disjointedly treated the lime processes with 500 and the silica processes with 501 without having any similar treatment to unify and balance things. The metaphor I've been using to describe this deficiency is it's like having a seesaw on a playground without any support in the middle to provide balance and get things off the ground. Horn Clay stands in the middle between the lime and silica polarities. See a couple of my other recent posts on this subject. I might add that this past year I myself have been making horn clay and will make much more in the future. Moreover, Lorraine has had horn clay (courtesy of Greg Willis) cards made for homeopathic potentization with her Malcolm Rae radionic instrument and we are supplying horn clay reagents as part of the BD reagent package for every Cosmic Pipe we sell. While I stumbled across the idea of making horn clay a dozen years ago and discussed it with Hugh Courtney and others, I hardly dreamed of its importance, thinking it might just be a remedy for sandy soils with little clay such as we have in Florida. Well it is that, but such a thought was far from the full truth. What Steiner says on page 33 is ". . . if we are dealing with a soil that does not carry these influences upward during the winter as it should, it is good to furnish the soil with some clay, the dosage of which I will indicate later." Since the earth has continued going downhill more and more steeply since Steiner's death it is likely that horn clay should be used on soils of all types and on every BD farm in the world. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "If you want what visible reality can give, you're an employee. If you want the unseen world, you're not living your truth. Both wishes are foolish, but you'll be forgiven for forgetting that what you really want is love's confusing joy." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 13:57:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA05936 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:57:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22343; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:40:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21929 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:38:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max16-33.stc.net [208.210.138.161]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA02018 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:41:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004e01be7160$7a883ae0$964b2e9c@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:18:44 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Astro-Agriculture Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 180 So is this too weird? What say you spiritual, star-watching servants of the earth? Searching, Julie Julie, The idea that life on this planet is affected by the streams of life forces from both inner and outer planets, to say nothing of the Sun, and that this all works in the context of the widest reaches of the cosmos (via the constellations) is not wierd at all. It is what is happening. We fool ourselves into thinking we are independent of such things because we have a certain degree of emancipation from the rhythms and cycles. We think maybe the idea that the stars affect us is crackpot. But actually this is where life comes from and goes to and we are just fooling ourselves to think otherwise. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "If you want what visible reality can give, you're an employee. If you want the unseen world, you're not living your truth. Both wishes are foolish, but you'll be forgiven for forgetting that what you really want is love's confusing joy." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 13:59:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA05989 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:59:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22904; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:42:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22438 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:40:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00A031BB@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:42:57 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 18 Mar 99 13:42:53 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 18 Mar 99 13:42:45 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:42:40 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Astro-Agriculture Priority: normal In-reply-to: <004e01be7160$7a883ae0$964b2e9c@oemcomputer> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <14DBBB1166@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 181 I don't get it. I just paid $2.99 for a half gallon of organic milk. That's enough to make anyone see stars! Anita > Hi everyone.. > > Thought I'd pose some thoughts & questions to those sky-gazing farmers > amongst us. Here, dairy farmers have just been slammed with a record drop in > the Basic Price Formula (BFP) for February. Since I am a student of the > stars, and the cows themselves, the milk production & pricing seems to > follow as oppty. to gain further insights into this mysterious cycle. > > (Sorry, I'm in tropical mode, but am a neophyte, and I do pay homage to the > siderealist system, by planting by their calendar:-)) > > The likes of this "crash" have not been seen since 5/5/91. In comparing the > two dates, both times Saturn was in early degrees of fixed signs & within a > wide 7-degree orb of hard aspect to cardinal moons (3/5/99 - Saturn @ 0 > Taurus opposed a 22-degree Libran moon. On 5/5/91 Saturn @ 6 Aquarius > conjuncted a 29-degree Capricorn moon. Both times the aspects were at wide > 7-degree orbs and applying. > > Interestingly, this most recent drop is the largest month-to-month decline > ever, but is the 7th lowest price paid this decade. The govt. is stepping in > with a Dairy Income Loss Assistance program, but the payment plan is fuzzy & > no one will be seeing any real cash for quite awhile. As a result, expect to > see MORE small family farms bite the dust, as it is they that are closest to > living from milk check to milk check. This reminds me of Steven's note about > Saturn entering very earthy, very agricultural Taurus, and the struggles we > can expect to see. > > The other thing that is striking to me, is the recent movement of Neptune > (chemicals, delusion) into scientific, intellectual, detached Aquarius. This > seems to me to be the perfect setting for Monsanto & GE to challenge the > truly traditional earthy agricultural methods (and in fact the actual > 90-degree square that is about to occur between Neptune in Aquarius & Saturn > in Taurus portends such a challenge!) Clearly Monsanto & its scientists are > deceiving (possibly even self-delusion, that this technology will, in fact, > feed the world - again, a humanitarian (Aquarian) representation, and much > of the world is deluded, or apathetic at best. > > One more thing... I was really happy (finally a wonderful answer!) to read > Glen's post to Parker about Tropical charts representing a more mundane view > of an individual, and sidereal charts a clearer inner goal (did I understand > this correctly?) then perhaps there is some insight to be gained into a > sidereal assessment of what's happening w/agriculture? Because perhaps that > is where the answer lies...what is happening here on a collective, inner > level? > > So is this too weird? What say you spiritual, star-watching servants of the > earth? > > Searching, > > Julie > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 14:09:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06199 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:09:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24674; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:52:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24587 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:51:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (modem6.digisys.net [205.138.110.55]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA16461 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:54:39 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F14C4F.58501ABE@digisys.net> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:56:15 -0700 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Astro-Agriculture References: <004e01be7160$7a883ae0$964b2e9c@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 182 Hi Julie and All .... let me add some astrological notation to Julie's fine questions. Julie M. wrote: > Hi everyone.. > > Thought I'd pose some thoughts & questions to those sky-gazing farmers > amongst us. Here, dairy [Moon, Virgo] farmers [4th house, Saturn, Capricorn] > have just been slammed with a record drop [Saturn enters Taurus, transiting > Mars turns retrograde] in > the Basic Price Formula (BFP) for February. Since I am a student of the > stars, and the cows [Moon, 4th house] themselves, the milk [Moon, Cancer, 4th > house] production & pricing [mundane chart: 2]seems to > follow as oppty. to gain further insights into this mysterious cycle. > > (Sorry, I'm in tropical mode, but am a neophyte, and I do pay homage to the > siderealist system, by planting by their calendar:-)) > > The likes of this "crash" have not been seen since 5/5/91. In comparing the > two dates, both times Saturn was in early degrees of fixed signs & within a > wide 7-degree orb of hard aspect to cardinal moons (3/5/99 - Saturn @ 0 > Taurus opposed a 22-degree Libran moon. On 5/5/91 Saturn @ 6 Aquarius > conjuncted a 29-degree Capricorn moon. Both times the aspects were at wide > 7-degree orbs and applying. > > Interestingly, this most recent drop is the largest month-to-month decline > ever, but is the 7th lowest price paid this decade. The govt. [Sun, Leo, > Capricorn, 10th house] is stepping in > with a Dairy Income Loss Assistance program, but the payment plan is fuzzy & > no one will be seeing any real cash for quite awhile. As a result, expect to > see MORE small family farms bite the dust, as it is they that are closest to > living from milk check to milk check. This reminds me of Steven's note about > Saturn entering very earthy, very agricultural Taurus, and the struggles we > can expect to see. In the U.S. Chart (7/4/1776, 4:20pm LMT, Philadelphia, PA, Gemini Asc chart: Koch house system) transiting Neptune has just recently moved into the U.S. 3rd house. Neptune rules the U.S. 4th house and 16 degrees of the U.S. 3rd house. Positive Neptune words are empathy, sympathetic understanding, contemplative, Spirit. Not so positive Neptune words are: gullible, suspicious, taken advantage of, exploited, being imposed upon, used, misused, milked-dry, the gradual disappearance of something. Neptune in Aquarius on the positive side relates to noble aims and aspirations; on the negative side it is fraud, dissolving, vanishing, insincerity and the ability to easily influence others. The 3rd house involves information dissemination, contacts with the public and transportation of all sorts. The 4th house among other things is farming. Transiting Saturn is currently located in the U.S. 5th house (attitude or actions of the governing body), and on 4/25/99 (tropical) enters the U.S. 6th house (health conditions of the nation, inception of labor troubles and strikes). Wherever transiting Saturn resides there is a reduction, a down turn in things, belt-tightening time. Saturn is also an economic plant, and governs agriculture (along with the 4th house and Cancer). Saturn is co-ruler of the U.S. 2nd house (the values the government "subscribes to", what's important to the government, the means the government uses to obtain its "cash flow"). The upcoming square between transiting Neptune and transiting Saturn can mean many things. One of course being "tightening the screws" (Saturn) on farmers and agriculture in general by means of deluding (Neptune) the public (Moon) and agriculture that chemicals, Monsanto & GE are good for our health (transiting Saturn to the U.S. 6th house). Fortunately the square says "it won't be easy". A square says there's an obstacle and carries the energy of Mars. Transiting Mars stations retrograde today in Scorpio. Transiting Mars retrograde suggests there's a pause, stoppage, recess or lull in secret and behind-the-scenes activities of the government (U.S. 12th house). Mars rules 12 degrees of the U.S. 4th house (agriculture). Since transiting Mars retrograde is a reevaluation of a course of action or a cessation of interest, the previous drive and focus in what might have been important to the government undergoes a reversal of interest. Traditionally, Saturn rules Aquarius. That makes Saturn co-ruler of the U.S. 2nd house (what our government "buys into" for the sake of the economic bottom-line. As we said, Neptune is in Aquarius in the U.S. 3rd house. Saturn says "enough is enough." Neptune suggests where the deceptive and fraudulent information is coming from (U.S. 3rd). The square could potentially manifest as our government losing interest in backing the chemical companies for the sake of a buck. Pat Hironimus http://www.simplyhealthfarms.com > > > The other thing that is striking to me, is the recent movement of Neptune > (chemicals, delusion) into scientific, intellectual, detached Aquarius. This > seems to me to be the perfect setting for Monsanto & GE to challenge the > truly traditional earthy agricultural methods (and in fact the actual > 90-degree square that is about to occur between Neptune in Aquarius & Saturn > in Taurus portends such a challenge!) Clearly Monsanto & its scientists are > deceiving (possibly even self-delusion, that this technology will, in fact, > feed the world - again, a humanitarian (Aquarian) representation, and much > of the world is deluded, or apathetic at best. > > One more thing... I was really happy (finally a wonderful answer!) to read > Glen's post to Parker about Tropical charts representing a more mundane view > of an individual, and sidereal charts a clearer inner goal (did I understand > this correctly?) then perhaps there is some insight to be gained into a > sidereal assessment of what's happening w/agriculture? Because perhaps that > is where the answer lies...what is happening here on a collective, inner > level? > > So is this too weird? What say you spiritual, star-watching servants of the > earth? > > Searching, > > Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 14:12:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06303 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:12:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25212; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:55:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24766 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:52:48 -0500 (EST) From: JHatf18942@aol.com Received: from JHatf18942@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hSKKa20480 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:54:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:54:58 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: BD No-till Is Different (Long) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 86 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 183 Excellent - Thanks Hugh and Guillermo for bringing me up to speed. Greetings from the U.P. Jeff Hatfield From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 14:13:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06352 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:13:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25357; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:56:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25084 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:54:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00A03626@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:57:21 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 18 Mar 99 13:57:17 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 18 Mar 99 13:57:01 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:56:57 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: OFF: mtg at Hugh's Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <004c01be7101$1220d480$9f242599@oemcomputer> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <15189F5D4E@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 184 So, all in favor of getting together at Hugh's place for German chocolate cake say "ay." AYYYYYYYYYYYYY! ; )Anita > To which I respond, my mother could bake a German chocolate cake to > perfection, melting her chocolate in a double boiler with butter, measuring > the exact amount of this and that, whipping up that lemony/vanilla corn > starch filler between the layers and that tasty outside glaze coating with > egg yolk, coconut and chopped walnuts in it. The recipe is on the chocolate > package if you buy the right kind, and she was a good cook with a recipe. > > However, when I became a chef on the oil rigs I used to make this kind of > cake using hand and eye to measure things since the consistency of > ingredients tends to vary somewhat anyway and I made bigger cakes in bigger > pans than the recipe called for. I used sourdough batter and some freshly > crushed cardamom seeds, and it's amazing the rich moistness and delicate, > almost minty spiciness this brought to the cake. It was creative fun to > make cakes that the drill crews, mud loggers, roughnecks, etc. would (not > quite) die for. > > We sorely need to take biodynamics out of the days of following rote > formulas into a much subtler, artistic, creative mode. It will require a > much greater understanding, as well as a willingness to use some new > ingredients suggested though not prescribed back at the birth of BD. Then > we'll see BD farms move forward to 30 or 40 or even 80 or 90 on our scale > of 1 to 100. We'll have to raise children on this superfood for the full > effects to show up in terms of manifesting the spiritual in physical life. > So that means there's a lot of lead time before we fully see where this > will take us, and there's no time to lose getting started. > > Mankind could have a lot in store for it. Isn't life inspiring? > > Warmest regards, > > > > > Hugh Lovel > Blairsville, Georgia > > "If you want what visible reality can give, you're an employee. > If you want the unseen world, you're not living your truth. > Both wishes are foolish, but you'll be forgiven for forgetting > that what you really want is love's confusing joy." --Rumi > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 14:22:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06637 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:22:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28045; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:10:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27936 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:10:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp5.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.105]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA19535 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:10:47 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <002401be7172$e6d9dac0$694b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie M." To: Subject: Re: Astro-Agriculture Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:09:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 185 Anita wrote: "I don't get it. I just paid $2.99 for a half gallon of organic milk. That's enough to make anyone see stars!" Anita Hi Anita! Organic milk isn't tied to the BFP (Thank goodness), which certainly creates some incentive to produce it. But even if you were buying conventional milk (blechh!) you wouldn't be seeing a big drop in retail prices. Hugh, being versed in the agri-political machine, would know more about who's pockets that difference ends up in.. Julie PS...when milk drops like this, it makes it nearly impossible for a conventional farmer to even consider transition-to-organic mode, because organic inputs are so costly, and the farm cannot be supported on a conventional return (and especially not on a depressed one!). The elimination of this alternative as a survival tactic adds even further inclination to schedule the auction. And re: Party!! at Hugh's - Yeah, Hugh, you bake the cake, & I'll bring the milk!! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 15:05:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09521 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:05:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07747; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:54:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07326 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:52:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp5.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.105]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA27007 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:53:08 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <004b01be7178$d0ed9d40$694b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie M." To: Subject: Re: Astro-Agriculture Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:52:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 186 Dear Pat & Hugh, Thank you for these wonderful posts. Hugh you encourage me (dangerous, no?) and Pat you've really given so much to consider & study. It IS interesting that the US's position is different than that of other countries. And would it not be interesting to see Monsanto's placements? And even better, how the two entities, the US govt. & Monsanto relate and aspect each other. Would seeking out and capitalizing on the Achilles heel of this love affair be taking unfair advantage? :-) I'm getting radical, Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 15:14:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09751 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:14:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09789; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:03:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09445 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:02:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp201.cy-net.net [208.21.195.10]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07155 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:05:01 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7147.09D4A4A0@FLYLO>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:55:53 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7147.09D4A4A0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: party at hugh's Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:49:45 -0600 Encoding: 48 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 187 I can bring milk too. Not exactly bathing in the stuff right now, but getting there, give me another month! Have 3 does due to kid end of March, and they're all heavy milkers. Milking 3 right now and it's keeping the baby goats happy but not much else till the moms start pouring it on. Sorry to hear about the milk prices, though. I'm about to find out some information about a cheese processor nearby and I wonder if that will affect his bottom price on what he can afford to pay or not. (Will know more Saturday). martha -----Original Message----- From: Julie M. [SMTP:marq@mwt.net] Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 1:10 PM To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Astro-Agriculture Anita wrote: "I don't get it. I just paid $2.99 for a half gallon of organic milk. That's enough to make anyone see stars!" Anita Hi Anita! Organic milk isn't tied to the BFP (Thank goodness), which certainly creates some incentive to produce it. But even if you were buying conventional milk (blechh!) you wouldn't be seeing a big drop in retail prices. Hugh, being versed in the agri-political machine, would know more about who's pockets that difference ends up in.. Julie PS...when milk drops like this, it makes it nearly impossible for a conventional farmer to even consider transition-to-organic mode, because organic inputs are so costly, and the farm cannot be supported on a conventional return (and especially not on a depressed one!). The elimination of this alternative as a survival tactic adds even further inclination to schedule the auction. And re: Party!! at Hugh's - Yeah, Hugh, you bake the cake, & I'll bring the milk!! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 18:13:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA14151 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:13:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14698; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:01:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from wavecom.net (root@wave.sheridan.wy.us [206.54.116.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05919 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:10:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from dbrown.wavecom.net (sher56.wavecom.net [206.54.116.141]) by wavecom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA17818 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:03:17 -0700 Message-Id: <199903182203.PAA17818@wavecom.net> From: "Audrey Malan" To: "biodynamic list serve" Subject: potato seed Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:13:34 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 188 Does anyone know where I can get some good potato seed in the Denver area? Thanks, Audrey From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 18 18:13:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA14159 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:13:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14819; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:02:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10411 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:37:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (modem35.digisys.net [205.138.110.84]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA05112 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:39:53 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F1811A.35E854A0@digisys.net> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:41:30 -0700 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Astro-Agriculture References: <004b01be7178$d0ed9d40$694b2e9c@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 189 Julie, Julie M. wrote: > And would > it not be interesting to see Monsanto's placements? And even better, how the > two entities, the US govt. & Monsanto relate and aspect each other. > > Would seeking out and capitalizing on the Achilles heel of this love affair > be taking unfair advantage? :-) The last (initial ?) "incorporation" data I have on Monsanto is April 19, 1933 incorporated in Delaware. I feel confident that the incorporation date has changed many times since 1933, which means the 4/19/33 date can not be used as a valid chart. Pat Hironimus http://www.simplyhealthfarms.com > > > I'm getting radical, > > Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 00:15:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA19569 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:15:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA28072; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:02:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15947 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:56:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp369.cy-net.net [208.21.195.178]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA31777 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:59:12 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7180.D1F99560@FLYLO>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:49:30 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7180.D1F99560@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: preps humor Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:41:40 -0600 Encoding: 12 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 190 Now, I know a variety of things are packed into cow horns, but for the life of me, having collected skulls and horns a lot, I can't figure out what that little dab could do, the amount packed inside a single horn is rather small. But, I've seen Ferdinand's photo of his horn 'wheel' and I'd imagine quite a bit of finished material would be unearthed, given the quantities of horns he uses. Then it hit me. The reason everyone on list is wild for Scotch Highlands is that they have horns longer than our fabled Texas Longhorns. Bury a stack of those and now you're getting somewhere. On the other hand, you'd have to wait quite awhile because they're said to be very long lived cows. (martha) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 06:14:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA22256 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:14:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA18686; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:01:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19659 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:30:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0204.direct.ca ([204.244.83.20] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10Nq1y-00040B-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:33:06 -0800 Message-ID: <36F1C518.EC9574B5@direct.ca> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:31:36 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BD Discussion Group Bio-Dynamics Subject: [Fwd: No Till vs Double Digging] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------27B15604EB9ADF17CD3FBE5B" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 191 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------27B15604EB9ADF17CD3FBE5B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 --------------27B15604EB9ADF17CD3FBE5B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by gouda (mbox ferdy) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Thu Mar 18 09:48:47 1999) X-From_: tommyfree@hotmail.com Thu Mar 18 07:13:46 1999 Received: from wya-lfd87.hotmail.com ([207.82.252.151] helo=hotmail.com) by edam.direct.ca with smtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10NeUT-0002Ua-00 for Ferdy@direct.ca; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:13:45 -0800 Received: (qmail 24977 invoked by uid 65534); 18 Mar 1999 15:13:14 -0000 Message-ID: <19990318151314.24976.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.144.107.12 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:13:13 PST X-Originating-IP: [207.144.107.12] From: "Michael Smith" To: Ferdy@direct.ca Subject: Re: No Till vs Double Digging Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:13:13 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Dear Ferdinand, Can you post this entry for me? Dear List, Double digging may be a prelude to an in-depth understanding to utilizing forms of soil to attract energies such as those found in lays. One form that dowsers use and understand to be beneficial is the labryinth. The laybrinth when placed properly in relation to underground water in landscape position, sometimes has the influence to either move or create a water dome beneath its' walls. In any reguard, this ancient structure has been in use far longer than civilization as we know it. Its' similation of "meander" is perhaps the archetype that attracts the water and beneficial energies of life and vitality. Michael. Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------27B15604EB9ADF17CD3FBE5B-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 06:14:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA22264 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:14:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA19075; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA01457 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:50:59 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA05565 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:53:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:53:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md16-34.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.34) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma005547; Thu Mar 18 23:52:58 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <199931905446617421@ix.netcom.com> Subject: the price of freedom for all life X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 192 On 03/18/99 13:09:51 you wrote: > >Anita wrote: >"I don't get it. I just paid $2.99 for a half gallon of organic milk. >That's enough to make anyone see stars!" >Anita > > Just got a gallon of the same from a friend in a glass jar I will reuse. When my veggies are up we shall have fun meals together. No currency, no garbage, no trucking. I'm blessed. A reminder that no matter the quality of our ag, if we play into a market system designed to violate Earth, we are not wholly on the path of the real solution. Let us begin taking those steps more deliberately. Happy Gardening, Paco aka John E. Verin BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? That's dumb. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 06:14:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA22268 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:14:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA19015; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:03:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA00840 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:43:01 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA08357 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:45:09 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:45:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md16-34.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.34) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma008296; Thu Mar 18 23:44:25 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <199931904613632391@ix.netcom.com> Subject: the down side of BDNOW X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 193 ...is that every post is lucious and I have no time to read them all! Being new to this I'm a sponge for new perceptions, yet here I am up at 23:45 with a day of farming just on the other side of night. Alas, I shall go cultivate a sleeping dream! Happy Gardening, Paco aka John E. Verin BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? That's dumb. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 06:14:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA22280 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:14:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA18972; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:03:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA00655 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:41:29 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA29446; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:40:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:40:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md16-34.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.34) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma029424; Thu Mar 18 23:40:11 1999 To: tawndor@bellatlantic.net To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <19993190415864827@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: GEO Consensus - BDNow X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 194 On 03/18/99 09:12:07 you wrote: > >Dear Colleagues, >As suggested by Jane Sherry, in the wake of the New Moon here is draft #2 of >a BD Now consensus statement on GEOs. Not too much input yet. I've lifted >some thoughts from related threads on this list. But I still feel we are >capable of greater spiritual insight into these questions. > >By all means indulge your inclinations to propose, rewrite, revise and >counter-propose. > >The thread will remain open for change and addition until April 15. > >Best, Steven Can I send you my taxes with my suggestions? Happy Gardening, Paco aka John E. Verin BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? That's dumb. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 06:14:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA22289 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:14:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA18910; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:02:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA00325 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:36:37 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA19618 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:38:48 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:38:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md16-34.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.34) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma019610; Thu Mar 18 23:38:47 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <19993190403562995@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Spring Equinox X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 195 In the sudden warmth of yesterday the fogs came out signing and do so all day long and lull me to sleep. I hear chemical food and GMOs inhibit one's ability to listen to nature.... ya know, I said that jokingly, but now I wonder... Happy Gardening, Paco aka John E. Verin BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? That's dumb. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 06:14:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA22290 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:14:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA18843; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:02:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA29681 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:27:36 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA29914 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:29:47 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:29:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md16-34.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.34) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma029904; Thu Mar 18 23:29:33 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <199931903121623281@ix.netcom.com> Subject: rounding up roundup X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 196 On this note, on what counts could we apply to have their charter revoked? An anti-sludge group in PA filed to get Waste Management International's removed, also registered in DE. Couldn't their lousy international situation be called into ? legally? Any fines? What about the US farmers suing them? Who knows more on this? On 03/18/99 15:41:30 you wrote: > >Julie, > >Julie M. wrote: > >> And would >> it not be interesting to see Monsanto's placements? And even better, how the >> two entities, the US govt. & Monsanto relate and aspect each other. >> >> Would seeking out and capitalizing on the Achilles heel of this love affair >> be taking unfair advantage? :-) > >The last (initial ?) "incorporation" data I have on Monsanto is April 19, 1933 >incorporated in Delaware. I feel confident that the incorporation date has >changed many times since 1933, which means the 4/19/33 date can not be used as a >valid chart. > >Pat Hironimus >http://www.simplyhealthfarms.com > >> >> >> I'm getting radical, >> >> Julie > > > > Happy Gardening, Paco aka John E. Verin BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? That's dumb. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 06:14:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA22304 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:14:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA19131; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from dogbert.ipa.net (dogbert.ipa.net [205.218.170.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA03086 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:08:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from steved.ipa.net (pool-131.faye.ipa.net [206.27.222.131]) by dogbert.ipa.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA01744 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:11:37 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36F1E9F8.7EED@ipa.net> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:08:56 -0600 From: Steve Diver Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Soils & Testing: Summary of Current Practices Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 197 BD-Now, This is a summary of soil & food quality features/ tests in use by labs and farmers, from a post I put up on Sanet last year. There are probably other tests not listed; for example, the Solvita Soil Test Kit. Nevertheless, in this layout you get a quick summary both practically and conceptually. Certainly, bio-organic farmers are looking for more than just N-P-K-Lime type soil tests. Steve Diver ================================================== ================================================== Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:43:17 +0000 From: Steve Diver To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Soils & Testing: Summary of Current Practices Soil Feature/Food Quality and Testing Methods """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Feature Tests """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Mineral/Chemical N-P-K-Lime Base Saturation/CEC LaMotte Cardy Meters (Nitrates-Potassium) Tissue Tests Nitrate test strips pH Meter EC Meter (Electrical Conductivity) ORP Meter (Oxidation-Reduction) Physical USDA Soil Health Test Kit Compaction = Penetrometer Water infiltration Soil aggregation Soil/Sand Separator Organic Matter % O.M. Humus Value Circular Chromatography Potential pH Hydrogen Peroxide Microbial Soil Foodweb analysis Microbial counts and functional groups Formazan (Dehydrogenase activity) Respiration Cotton Bioassay Strips Energetic Paramagnetism (PCSM Meter) EC Meter (ERGS) Radionics Food Quality Brix = Refractometer Vitamin C test strips Nitrate test strips Darkfield Microscopy (cellular) Circular Chromatography """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" This is a summary of soil & food quality features with a list of current tests in use by labs and farmers. Ya'll got any comments or additions? Thanks! Steve Diver ================================================= From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 06:15:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA22312 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:15:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA19215; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:04:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA11184 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 03:22:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 203 invoked from network); 19 Mar 1999 01:24:45 -0700 Received: from ts2-48.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO cyberhighway.net) (209.161.18.199) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 01:24:45 -0700 Message-ID: <36F209D0.AE097769@cyberhighway.net> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:24:48 -0700 From: Pam DeTray Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Salmon River Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Spring Equinox References: <4.1.19990317110215.00930670@mail.kootenay.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 198 Signs of spring? Sandhill cranes calling with their guttural coos down in the lagoons. Golden eagle soaring over MY hilltop yesterday and today! Green life showing at the bottoms of my fernleaf golden yarrow. Irises poking their leaves up from the earth Robins scratching for worms Buds on the trees Green grass showing A beautiful, almost-like-summer day today. Most of the snow melted in my yard, except for the ice on the north side of the house Still plenty of snow on the mountains, but I'm watching for the "7" that appears when it melts just right and it's time to plant the peas. More than "Ahhhhh" in this locale--truly the reawakening of life on earth after a very long winter. Pam Woody wrote: > > Listfolk: > > The Spring Equinox happens Saturday, March 20, 5:45 PM our time here in > British Columbia. > What signs of Spring have we all been observing? Never mind bragging, you > guys south of the 30 degrees Latitude...I know it's been Spring there for > some time. > > Signs of Spring here at Aurora Farm: > > * Lilacs, serviceberry, Balm of Gilead buds swelling; > * Crocus and snowdrops blooming; > * Robins and Towhees singing; > * A bald eagle soaring over our hilltop yesterday; > * A couple of nights lately when it didn't drop below freezing... > > Ahhhhhh! > > Woody From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 06:15:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA22321 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:15:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA18787; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:02:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20427 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:38:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp369.cy-net.net [208.21.195.178]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05546 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:41:21 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7186.B43856A0@FLYLO>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:31:37 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7186.B43856A0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: OFF: computer virus coming! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:59:03 -0600 Encoding: 17 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 199 If you're concerned go to the site : http://www.datafellows.com they are the group that busted Happy99.exe long before anyone else caught wind of it. I get their updates and alerts and this came in tonight: < Espoo, Finland, March 18, 1999. - DataFellows, one of the world's leading developers of anti-virus and encryption software, is warning computer users about a virulent and widespread virus which activates on April 26th 1999 -- the day before Europe's leading IT security show, InfoSecurity '99 opens in London. The virus is CIH 1.2, a strain of the Win95/CIH virus family. CIH 1.2 (also known as CIH.1003) can overwrite the hard disk and the flash BIOS of an infected computer when it activates on 26th April-causing complete loss of data, and possibly rendering the computer unusable. Data Fellows is advising all computer users to update their anti-virus software immediately and back up their data.> martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 07:33:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA22897 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:33:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA26319; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:22:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA26178 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.128] (pm3shep3-163-148.intrepid.net [209.190.163.148]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA28140 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:23:55 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:26:14 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Safe Seed Sources from "Mothers for Natural Law" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 200 For Your Garden Arbico Environmentals: certify that their Bt sprays and other products are not genetically engineered or produced from a genetically engineered product. Ecology Action for books and a great variety of untreated seeds 5798 Ridgewood Road Willits, CA 95490 Phone/Fax: 707-459-6410 E-mail: bountiful@zapcom.net The Invisible Gardener for natural pest control and more P.O.Box 4311 Malibu, CA 90265 Phone: 310-457-4438 www.invisiblegardener.com The following seed companies have provided written confirmation that none of their seeds are genetically engineered. The KUSA Society* PO Box 761 Ojai, CA 93024 *To receive information about The KUSA Society and a Seed & Literature Catalogue, send $2.50 and a long self-addressed, stamped envelope to the address above. Seeds of Change PO Box 15700 Santa Fe, NM 87506 Phone: 888-762-7333 Seed Savers Exchange Phone: 319-382-5990 Southern Exposure Seed Exchange PO Box 170 Earlysville, VA 22936 Phone: 804-973-4703 from: http://www.safe-food.org/-consumer/garden.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 07:49:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA23032 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:49:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA27180; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:37:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA27113 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:36:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.128] (pm3shep3-163-148.intrepid.net [209.190.163.148]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA30174 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:39:15 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BE7180.D1F99560@FLYLO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:41:39 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Highland Cattle was RE: preps humor Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 201 >Then it hit me. The reason everyone on list is wild for Scotch Highlands is >that they have horns longer than our fabled Texas Longhorns. Bury a stack >of those and now you're getting somewhere. >On the other hand, you'd have to wait quite awhile because they're said to >be very long lived cows. (martha) I'm working with three Highlands this year and do enjoy their strong 'presence.' Who else on BD Now! has some? Thanks Allan Balliett BIODYNAMICS Now! POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 (304) 876-2373 (815) 550-6067 FAX Forwarding csa@claymont.org From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 08:03:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA23405 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA28386; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:52:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from fh102.infi.net (fh102.infi.net [208.131.160.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA28181 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:49:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from 208.129.61.66 (pm1-66.1v5.infi.net [208.129.61.66]) by fh102.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA21004 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:52:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36F23C60.5C22@bouldernews.infi.net> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:00:36 -0600 From: Paul Frazier Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Spring Equinox References: <4.1.19990317110215.00930670@mail.kootenay.com> <36F209D0.AE097769@cyberhighway.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 202 Pam DeTray wrote: > > Signs of spring? > Sandhill cranes calling with their guttural coos down in the lagoons. > Golden eagle soaring over MY hilltop yesterday and today! > Green life showing at the bottoms of my fernleaf golden yarrow. > Irises poking their leaves up from the earth > Robins scratching for worms > Buds on the trees > Green grass showing > A beautiful, almost-like-summer day today. > Most of the snow melted in my yard, except for the ice on the north side > of the house > Still plenty of snow on the mountains, but I'm watching for the "7" that > appears when it melts just right and it's time to plant the peas. > More than "Ahhhhh" in this locale--truly the reawakening of life on > earth after a very long winter. > Pam > > Woody wrote: > > > > Listfolk: > > > > The Spring Equinox happens Saturday, March 20, 5:45 PM our time here in > > British Columbia. > > What signs of Spring have we all been observing? Never mind bragging, you > > guys south of the 30 degrees Latitude...I know it's been Spring there for > > some time. > > > > Signs of Spring here at Aurora Farm: > > > > * Lilacs, serviceberry, Balm of Gilead buds swelling; > > * Crocus and snowdrops blooming; > > * Robins and Towhees singing; > > * A bald eagle soaring over our hilltop yesterday; > > * A couple of nights lately when it didn't drop below freezing... > > > > Ahhhhhh! > > > > Woody Signs of Spring in Colorado The dark mountain sides are peaking through the snowcaps The Daffodils bloomed this week There are blossoms on the Nanking cherries The nightengale is awakening me at dawn The sun is in my eyes in the northeast window of my bedroom, calling me out of bed earlier and earlier The Finches are building their spring nest in the porch light again. The geese are finding their nesting sites on the pond and feisty! The soil is cool and crumbly, and delicious to work! AHHHHH She is so pregnant!!! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 08:06:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA23444 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:06:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA28647; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:55:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from halifax.chebucto.ns.ca (chebucto.ns.Ca [192.75.95.75]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA28357 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:52:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from av204@localhost by halifax.chebucto.ns.ca id <33132-659>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:55:00 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:55:00 -0400 (AST) Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Joan Macdonald To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Spring Equinox In-Reply-To: <36F209D0.AE097769@cyberhighway.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: av204@chebucto.ns.ca X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 203 Hi All; I am enjoying the signs of spring appearing, one suggestion could be to please put your local in your state,County, Country, etc.. It's fun guessing, but overseas BDNOWER's may be interested in looking on a map to get an idea where you garden/farm. On the coast of Eastern Canada, the fog horn is a symbol of sping, more misty days and overhead sounds of the shore birds moving back north and inland. In the woods the damp smell of last year's leaves, now breaking down and permitting the undergrowth to poke through. Temperatures reaching the 50's in the sunny sheltered areas...No Snow...Too early to plan hardy crops yet..start in April.. There is a Nova Scotia province wide 'Peeper Watch' which begins in April, first peeps heard from the province's southern end upward are noted by the media and the Nova Scoita Museum in Halifax, ending with a replica of a HUGE Peeper annually hoisted and attached on the outside of the Museum remaining until fall. Thanks for sharing spring with all of us.. Joan Macdonald Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada email:av204@chebucto.ns.ca From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 08:15:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA23530 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:15:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA29435; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:04:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29242 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:02:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp8.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.108]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id HAA03702 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:02:49 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <004f01be7208$a93ffb40$6c4b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie M." To: Subject: Re: Spring Equinox Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:01:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 204 Joan Macdonald wrote: >There is a Nova Scotia province wide 'Peeper Watch' which begins in April, >first peeps heard from the province's southern end upward are noted by >the media and the Nova Scoita Museum in Halifax, ending with a replica of >a HUGE Peeper annually hoisted and attached on the outside of the Museum >remaining until fall. Wonderful! Do you know where this local custom originated, Joan? Peepers are one of my favorite signs of spring. Imagine never even having heard of them before moving to the farm! They say "Once the Peepers begin singing, you will see 3 times through glass (ice) before its time to plant" (I love creature lore!) Happy Spring! Love Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 08:21:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA23613 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA29807; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:10:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29708 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:09:17 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA15695 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:11:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:11:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md16-60.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.60) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma015679; Fri Mar 19 07:11:13 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <19993198125866334@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Spring Equinox X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 205 On 03/18/99 23:38:48 you wrote: > >In the sudden warmth of yesterday the fogs came out signing and do so all day long and lull me to sleep. Oops! I meant fRogs! The midnight lamp makes for funny typing. >I hear chemical food and GMOs inhibit one's ability to listen to nature.... ya know, I said that jokingly, but now I wonder... > > > Happy Gardening, Paco aka John E. Verin BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 08:28:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA23777 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:28:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00233; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:16:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00051 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:14:41 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA16166 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:16:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:16:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md16-60.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.60) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma016152; Fri Mar 19 07:16:22 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <199931981810619169@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Safe Seed Sources X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 206 It seems few people know of, or at least mention, Abundant Life Seed Foundation, a non-profit aimed towards preserving OP and heirlooms, particularly rare and endangered ones. Too often I see seed saving books that don't mention them and their wonderful efforts. I grow out the rare Iroquois/6 Nations bean for them. Moreover, I bought my first Stella Natura from them this year. Abundant Life Seed Foundation P.O. Box 772 Port Towsend, WA 98368 360.385.5660 fax 360.385.7455 Happy Gardening, Paco aka John E. Verin BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 08:50:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA24086 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:50:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02002; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:37:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01895 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.4]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:40:50 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:39:32 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Spring Equinox Message-ID: <8124333A03F4587D8525673900419459.0049AA9185256739@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 207 Signs of Spring in NYC: Summer Growth all through December Roses in full bloom on Broadway by (Winter) Solstice January, February warm and wind storms Winter blooming witch hazel met Hellebores, dewdrops and crocus in bloom a full two weeks ago or more. Saw/Heard my first cardinals today The Big Park should really be called Bird Central. Sky luminous blue at dawn Ochre wands brightening to yellow on the willows Ground only froze two weeks ago when winter finally arrived with freezing cold, wind and snow covering exuberant hellebores below. And now they're fully a foot high. (Flowers, not snow!) To live in NYC and have birdsong greet you in the morning is truly a sign of spring, as are the long awaited sight of farmers returning to the street to sell their greenhouse greens, their end of winter roots and harbor the promise of summer. I also know it's spring when the NYTimes foolish food writers talk of dandelion greens, fiddle head ferns and nettles yes "fresh" nettles "imported" from the northwest coast! Only in NY folks! would people pay 10$ a pound!!!!! for imported nettles from 3000 miles away! Never suspecting that they may hide in their own back yards! Maybe you bd folks w/csa's or access to shipping or local NYC markets might want an early source of income? Happy Spring and may the gentle breeze blow! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 08:51:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA24106 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:51:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02317; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:40:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from anat.ncds.net (anat.ncds.net [207.250.242.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA02087 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:38:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from pavilion (p01-03.ffxp.ncds.net [207.250.242.178]) by anat.ncds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7-sp) with SMTP id HAA24107 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:42:07 -0600 Message-ID: <004601be721f$38cd8be0$b2f2facf@pavilion> From: "parker" To: Subject: horn clay Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:41:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0043_01BE71DB.F1365980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 208 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01BE71DB.F1365980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Hugh- Where in the spraying sequence does horn clay fit in, would you spray = after the 500 and before the first application of 501? Would you always = try and time your horn clay application with a post-501 spraying. Is = there any horn clay available for the '99 season? with earthy regards, Parker ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01BE71DB.F1365980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Hugh-
Where in the spraying sequence = does horn=20 clay fit in, would you spray after the 500 and before the first = application of=20 501? Would you always try and time your horn clay application with a = post-501=20 spraying. Is there any horn clay available for the '99=20 season?
 
with earthy = regards,
Parker
------=_NextPart_000_0043_01BE71DB.F1365980-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 09:09:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA24456 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:09:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03765; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:58:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03613 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:56:17 -0500 (EST) From: CWShade@aol.com Received: from CWShade@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hLESa10913 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:58:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32f48367.36f25803@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:58:27 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: BD No-till Is Different (Long) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 209 In a message dated 99-03-16 23:55:26 EST, you write: << Earthworms are like chickens and have gizzards instead of teeth. They like those sharp, siliceous, gritty pieces to grind their food (the lawnmower clippings in this case) with. The chemists may tell you those sandy bits don't contain much in the way of nutrients anyway. But they're hard. I can hear the chemists scoff now, thinking what is the value of hardness? This quarry was noted for having hard stone, and like I say the earthworms loved it. They came up and scarffed it off the surface at night, gathered their lawnmower clippings, and presumably spend their days underground feasting to their hearts' content. That's what opened up the soil on that hillside and let in the nitrogen, oxygen and water. You know, those things nature gives us free if we have sense enough to go for it. What a key thing! Earthworms and hard, sharp bits of quartz with supposedly very low nutrient content. >> I just was looking at a paper where scientists looked at the effects of earthworm ingestion on pjosphate rack availability. They concluded that the effect, greater P availability, was due to the intimate incorporation of the the rock particles with the soil. They showed electron micrographs of the rock particles int0 the soil vs. passed throught he gut of the worm. The seived particles had air all around them, whereas the "wormed" particles were completely enveloped by highly organic soil goo. Biochemically this will coat the particles with soil bacteria an chelating organic acids to make available many mineral goodies. BUT, more interestingly, energetically I see the worm alchemy of uniting Positive and negative. Granite, basalt, rock phos, all paramagnetic, or positive, elements united with the diamagnetic, or negative, humus elements to make the soil hum with the elixir. Something that machanical mixing was not able to do, but rather left the two separate. But maybe I am just spewing. Chris Shade Aspiring Mad Scientist From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 09:09:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA24469 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:09:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03798; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:58:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03713 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:58:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (modem12.digisys.net [205.138.110.61]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA23333 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:00:45 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F258F2.83BEA57B@digisys.net> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:02:26 -0700 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" Subject: Re: Astro-Agriculture Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 210 Morning Julie and All, Just put up Monsanto's 6/1/33 trading chart (Koch house system); and thought you might enjoy some of my musings. The first thing that caught my eye on this chart is a Virgo stellium in the 2nd house.Virgo being the sign of "I analyze" things as a means to obtain the corporate financial goals. Virgo is also the sign of the "harvest," so Monsanto values clever ideas that can be turned into an economic harvest (Mercury ruled Virgo on 2nd cusp). Harvesting money in and of itself is not a bad thing. Monsanto also has Neptune, Moon, Mars and Jupiter all in Virgo and all in the 2nd house. The 2nd house describes Monsanto's value system and how that value system dictates or determines the choices they make to arrive at their "bottom line." To me this is a strong indication of how highly prized the ole' mighty buck is to Monsanto. The Moon, Mars and Jupiter (2nd house) all inconjunct Saturn (7th house). My own personal word for an inconjunct is something that is "not resolved." The Moon/Virgo/2nd ruler of the 12th house inconjunct Saturn/Aquarius/7th ruler of the 6th house (and traditional ruler of 7th house): The 7th house has to do with the public attitude toward Monsanto, and Monsanto's attitude toward the public. Monsanto feels any conditions the public might view as against the public welfare (Moon ruler 12th house) need to be held tight to the breast; in other words, hidden and out of sight. Saturn/Aquarius/7th suggests Monsanto has a hard sharply changing on-again/off-again relationship with the public. Monsanto clashes with the U.S. public. It's worth mentioning here that the Leo Ascendant suggests Monsanto views itself as having the right to function as it chooses. A kind of lording over the public in general. If we look at Neptune/Virgo/2nd ruler 8th house: Neptune is not strongly positioned in Virgo. Virgo likes to pigeon-hole things, but Neptune is too fluid to be pigeon-holed. Neptune in the 2nd afflicted can be deceptive financial practices due to a dissolving sense of values. This would impact the public since Neptune rules 5 degrees of the 7th house (the public). Neptune of course can be making others "addicts" to the products they sell as a means of insuring continued cash-flow. So making money by addicting (Neptune/2nd) the populous to chemicals that kill (Neptune ruler 8th) earns Monsanto neither dignity nor honor. Jupiter/Virgo/2nd ruler 5th house: Jupiter traditionally rules Pisces (8th house), and it also rules Sagittarius (5th house). Jupiter/2nd is inconjunct Saturn/7th. Jupiter and Saturn are economic planets. Jupiter rules the ability to influence others (particularly those at a distance), the judicial system, the export of goods to foreign countries. Monsanto likely feels the U.S. public (Saturn/7th) works against (Capricorn/6th) it's efforts. I have a question. Does anyone know the sign, constellation or planet that rules "seeds" in general??? Pat Hironimus http://www.simplyhealthfarms.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 09:12:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA24521 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:12:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04057; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:01:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03987 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:01:27 -0500 (EST) From: CWShade@aol.com Received: from CWShade@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hMOYa26965 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:02:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <60326ab5.36f258e8@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:02:16 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Astro-Agriculture Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 211 In a message dated 99-03-18 13:46:22 EST, you write: << a humanitarian (Aquarian) representation >> Remember that Aquarius is ruled by Saturn in worldly affairs. Humanitarian my ass. Look for Darth Vader. Chris Shade From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 09:45:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA25064 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:45:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07809; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:35:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07441 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:32:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00A0DE4F@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 9:35:24 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 19 Mar 99 09:35:20 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 19 Mar 99 09:35:16 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:35:07 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: (Fwd) Re: (Fwd) Organic Farming Economics Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <28BC947764@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 212 Hi Everybody, I forwarded the below article from the Sanet list serve to Ferdinand and he suggests that I foward it to everybody. So, here it is: > Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:30:46 > From: "Bluestem Associates" > Subject: Organic Farming Economics > > On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 05:40:13 -0500, BILL DUESING wrote: > > >In this country, 80 cents of every dollar spent on food is used to get the > >food from the farm to the eater. Only 20 cents gets to the farmer who > >spends on average 15 cents on inputs (labor, etc.) > > That's on produce. For commodities it's often 10 cents or less. John > Ikerd and Charles Benbrook have each done some excellent work in this > domain that is, alas, substantially more discouraging than your > numbers. Benbrook has compared the ensemble of US production > agriculture to other sectors of the agri-food industry, and the results > are not pretty. Farming's aggregate return on gross revenues is 2.1%, > compared to Food Service -- 3.4%; Retail Grocery -- 4.6%; Pesticides > - -- 5.9%; Food Processing -- 7.0%; and Seeds -- 12%. > > When looking at profits against assets, things are worse yet. Food > Service -- 16.1%; Retail Grocery 10.6%; Food Processing -- 9.1%; > Pesticides -- 3.9%; Seeds -- 3.7%; and finally, Farming -- a piddling > 0.4%. If you adjust Benbrook's profits against assets numbers to > account for average equity in those assets, farming's return on > investment (ROI) is *still* under 1% (and actually closer to 0.7% !) > That is roughly one-seventh the ROI to be had by putting the same > money in a totally-safe US Treasury bond. > > And let's remember, too, that over three-quarters of US farmers have > gross revenues under $50,000 and on average show a net *loss* of $3,000 > per year. > > >It seems that shrinking that 80 percent sector might prove more productive > >than shrinking the 15 percent one. > > Yes, indeed, though I'm not convinced that organic production (in > itself) is the answer. As organics is currently evolving, we have a > $4.00 box of organic corn flakes for which the farmer sees about 4 > cents. Please explain how that is a substantial improvement on $3.00 > conventional corn flakes, for which the farmer sees 3 cents. > > To survive, farmers need to think more like the shareholders of a > corporation, focusing *first* on maximizing ROI. Getting our hands on > a bigger chunk of that 80 per cent is a major element of that process. > > Most farmers, unfortunately, are content to work as staff for a > business that has no over-arching internal management structure. As a > result, the functions of VP Finance usually end up in the hands of the > Banker. The role of VP Production goes to major input suppliers. And > VP Marketing is most often the Buyer. All these external people are > understandably trying to fatten their own bottom lines, which is how > you end up with the kind of comparative returns that Benbrook cited. > > Farmers have a greater chance of financial success if they think *more* > like business people, not less, and that success at least allows them > the option of taking better care of their land. Farmers who have their > backs against the wall financially are not particularly willing to > change *anything* because they simply can't afford to make a mistake. > Therein lies the core of our challenge in popularizing sustainable and > organic agriculture. > > Attempting to address the agronomic issues before the management > challenges are resolved it unlikely to be especially satisfying or > effective. > > > Bart Hall, > Lawrence, Kansas > > Anita Graf > 313-F Conner Hall > Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics > University of Georgia > Athens, GA 30602-7509 > (706) 542-1915 phone > (706) 542-0739 fax > agraf@agecon.uga.edu > > Anita Graf > 313-F Conner Hall > Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics > University of Georgia > Athens, GA 30602-7509 > (706) 542-1915 phone > (706) 542-0739 fax > agraf@agecon.uga.edu -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 10:05:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25411 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:05:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10557; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:54:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10484 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:53:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d141.infoserve.net [199.175.157.141]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA06700 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:59:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <008201be7218$b9509480$8d9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Safe Seed Sources Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:43:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 213 Lots of people know about Abundant Life Seed now. There is a seed source list on bdnow's website. Michael -----Original Message----- From: beanman@ix.netcom.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 5:22 AM Subject: Re: Safe Seed Sources >It seems few people know of, or at least mention, Abundant Life Seed Foundation, a non-profit aimed towards preserving OP and >heirlooms, particularly rare and endangered ones. >Too often I see seed saving books that don't mention them and their wonderful efforts. I grow out the rare Iroquois/6 Nations bean for >them. > >Moreover, I bought my first Stella Natura from them this year. > >Abundant Life Seed Foundation >P.O. Box 772 >Port Towsend, WA >98368 >360.385.5660 >fax 360.385.7455 > > >Happy Gardening, > >Paco >aka John E. Verin > > >BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! >How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 10:49:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26618 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:49:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16323; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:38:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12475 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:11:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max11-16.stc.net [208.210.136.16]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA05084 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:14:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199931904613632391@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:09:26 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: the down side of BDNOW Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 214 Beanman writes: >How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses >built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to a toxic city to >do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money >to give to someone else in order to eat food? That's dumb. Beanman, Absolutely! Nobody's accusing the human race of being intelligent and wise, though a few scattered individuals have won that accolade. The masses routinely line up behind a juggernaut to Hell while proclaiming its goodness and righteousness. Nor are we lacking in role models for this amongst the angels and gods. What do you think is going on? Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." --Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 10:49:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26624 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16401; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:38:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12513 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:11:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max11-16.stc.net [208.210.136.16]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA05148 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:14:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199931905446617421@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:35:58 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: the price of freedom for all life Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 215 > >Just got a gallon of the same from a friend in a glass jar I will reuse. >When my veggies are up we >shall have fun meals together. No currency, no garbage, no trucking. I'm >blessed. > >A reminder that no matter the quality of our ag, if we play into a market >system designed to violate Earth, we are not wholly on the path >of the real solution. > >Let us begin taking those steps more deliberately. > > >Happy Gardening, > >Paco >aka John E. Verin Right on Fella! The most successful BD farmer I know, Jeff Poppen in Red Boiling Springs, Tennessee, has never been on the grid, cooks with wood, grows most of what he eats, has an answering phone at the border of his land, has a good time playing music in the evenings, and has put all the money he saves into increasing his farm from 90 to 400 acres. His main concession is using gasoline. Beautiful land only 45 minutes from the state capitol. You gotta figure that if the system rips us off and is suckering us into paying for it its colonialism and corruption right and left, how much better are we liable to be off if we opt out? Maybe a lot? But CAN we opt out? Does anyone know HOW? It's like being a bright kid, stuck in the ghetto and seeing/knowing no way out. How can you get out of what is essentially a hopeless, oppressive, self-destructive situation? Actually, there's the question of how to become free from the hopelessness, oppression and self-destruction. Some manage this without leaving the ghetto, or they may leave seeking freedom and come back to point the way for others. On the other hand you might ask yourself how would you find your way in? Could you do that? I've found both possible, though the mental gymnastics can be extraordinary. But then I fit myself in here in Blairsville over the past 23 years where everyone's "mountain folks" further than you can walk in a day, and I'm one of the good ol' boys. Me, I'm ever so alien. They know I'm an alien because I can pronounce all the chemicals listed on the feed sacks and describe the industrial processes that produced them and their side effects, to say nothing of talking economics, astronomy, physics, classical music, anatomy, geology, fine art and cajun cooking. I'm known for having having rainbow people, foreigners and inner city blacks visit for extended periods. But I learned the patois right off, assumed most of the outward appearances and I like and respect these people. I've liked and respected people everywhere I've gone. I would try to fit in even on a foreign planet. I probably would have never become a BD farmer if I couldn't make paradigm shifts. Probably there is no greater survival skill for Y2K or any other calamity than mental flexibility. You can stockpile food, learn to grow it, learn all sorts of survival skills and stockpile the gear to use them, but when it comes right down to it you'll have to roll with the punches. That's only survival, however, just tactics. The long range view, the strategic question of how will we craft a wiser social order begs for answers on the borders of our thought. We must address this issue. We can't go much further with just tactics. It's deserving of a lot of thought. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." --Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 10:49:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26635 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:49:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16479; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:39:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12558 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:12:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max11-16.stc.net [208.210.136.16]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA05210 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:14:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:50:21 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: GEO Consensus - BDNow Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 216 >Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:58:11 -0400 >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >From: Hugh Lovel >Subject: Re: GEO Consensus - BDNow >Cc: >Bcc: >X-Attachments: > >>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:12:07 -0500 >>Subject: Re: GEO Consensus - BDNow >>From: "Steven McFadden" >>To: bdnow@envirolink.org >>Mime-version: 1.0 >>X-Priority: 3 >>X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id >>JAA09752 >>Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >>Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org >> >>Dear Colleagues, >>As suggested by Jane Sherry, in the wake of the New Moon here is draft #2 of >>a BD Now consensus statement on GEOs. Not too much input yet. I've lifted >>some thoughts from related threads on this list. But I still feel we are >>capable of greater spiritual insight into these questions. >> >>By all means indulge your inclinations to propose, rewrite, revise and >>counter-propose. >> >>The thread will remain open for change and addition until April 15. >> >>Best, Steven > > >Steven, > >I want to sign on this. It's well enough stated for me. > >I'm sure this genetic tinkering is extremely unwise. For one thing if >something deadly gets loose, with or without mutating (though there's >reason to believe mutation is a given) it won't be like an atom bomb and >cease to exist after it's wreaked its bit of havoc. No it will reproduce >itself. Atom bombs do not reproduce themselves, which limits their >dangers. All we would need is some windborn disease virulent enough to >wipe us all out and we have solved the problem of human pollution for >planet Earth. > >Imagine cooking up just such a disease, spreading it to the winds and >charging everyone a tax for their daily antidote. It would be the ultimate >siezure of power scam. You could tatoo everyone who came forward for the >antidote with a numerical code on their forehead in flourescent dye. >Everyone else would die of the disease. This kind of thing is the lowest >common denominator of genetic engineering. Never before have we had the >potential of weapons with such surpassing ability to subjugate everyone to >a ruling gang. Plus using them maybe won't even damage the infrastructure. > >Ah, well! We are sure in for exciting times. From the above you can see >that government regulation of the genetic modification industries will >probably have only limited beneficial effects. Nonetheless we must strive >for as much regulation over these industries as we can get. > >Sadly, > > Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." --Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 11:41:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA27810 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:41:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23966; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:30:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23465 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:27:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00A100FD@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:30:08 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 19 Mar 99 11:30:04 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 19 Mar 99 11:30:00 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:29:57 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: More on woms Priority: normal In-reply-to: <32f48367.36f25803@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <2AA61F25A1@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 217 > BUT, more interestingly, energetically I see the worm > alchemy of uniting Positive and negative. Granite, basalt, rock phos, all > paramagnetic, or positive, elements united with the diamagnetic, or negative, > humus elements to make the soil hum with the elixir. Something that > machanical mixing was not able to do, but rather left the two separate. But > maybe I am just spewing. > > Chris Shade > Aspiring Mad Scientist Spewing? I don't think so. Digesting perhaps, joining ideas like magnetic and paramagnetic poles, perhaps... but definately not spewing. Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 12:05:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA28393 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:05:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27195; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:54:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26853 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:52:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([195.44.3.101]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:55:39 +0000 Message-ID: <36F2818E.32EA@cwcom.net> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:55:42 +0000 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Horn clay Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 218 Dear Hugh and other wise folks - I have heavy clay about 1-2 feet down, I don't know how deep (have never found the energy to dig far enough down). So far, my efforts have all been to open it up by digging in compost, leaf mould, fibrous pond dredgings etc. How do my needs to energise this clay compare with yours in open sandy soil? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 12:33:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29062 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:32:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00409; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:22:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00022 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:20:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max11-46.stc.net [208.210.136.46]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA25414 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:22:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004601be721f$38cd8be0$b2f2facf@pavilion> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:58:38 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: horn clay Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 219 > Dear Hugh- Where in the spraying sequence does horn clay fit in, >would you spray after the 500 and before the first application of 501? >Would you always try and time your horn clay application with a post-501 >spraying. Is there any horn clay available for the '99 season? with >earthy regards, Parker I'll soon have some spring to spring horn clay. I think that's not the best, but the best I presently have for manual application. There's many ways of looking at this. Suppose you try the following. Spray the horn clay one evening, then the 501 the next morning, the 500 that evening and the horn clay again the following morning. Or use your intuition if you have better ideas. Best Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." --Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 12:33:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29070 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:33:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00344; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:22:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29961 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:19:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max11-46.stc.net [208.210.136.46]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA25363 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:22:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <32f48367.36f25803@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:52:18 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD No-till Is Different (Long) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 220 >I just was looking at a paper where scientists looked at the effects of >earthworm ingestion on pjosphate rack availability. They concluded that the >effect, greater P availability, was due to the intimate incorporation of the >the rock particles with the soil. They showed electron micrographs of the >rock particles int0 the soil vs. passed throught he gut of the worm. The >seived particles had air all around them, whereas the "wormed" particles were >completely enveloped by highly organic soil goo. Biochemically this will coat >the particles with soil bacteria an chelating organic acids to make available >many mineral goodies. BUT, more interestingly, energetically I see the worm >alchemy of uniting Positive and negative. Granite, basalt, rock phos, all >paramagnetic, or positive, elements united with the diamagnetic, or negative, >humus elements to make the soil hum with the elixir. Something that >machanical mixing was not able to do, but rather left the two separate. But >maybe I am just spewing. > >Chris Shade Chris Mechanical mixing may very well be counter productive. Ever watch how pigs root? They have a keen sense of what minerals are in the soil, and they ingest tasty minerals such as various rock powders, humates, gyp, rock phos, wood ash, etc. by choice. The pig is just about the closest thing to an earthworm on four legs. But the earthworm takes this business a good bit farther. If you leave the material you're applying spread on the surface they will come up at night and get it. Plant roots like earthworm tunnels, just incidentally, and will get the minerals after the earthworms are through. So incorporation may just make it more difficult for the earthworm to ingest the material and that much slower for plant response. Certainly on my hillside with all the finely chopped vegetation (earthworm food) salted down with granite dust the following round of vegetation showed all the signs of getting what was spread on the surface. Needless to say, however, there was abundant earthworm activity. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." --Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 13:04:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA29612 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:04:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04380; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:53:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04012 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:50:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max2-38.stc.net [208.210.131.166]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA29893 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:52:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36F2818E.32EA@cwcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:25:33 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Horn clay Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 221 >Dear Hugh and other wise folks - I have heavy clay about 1-2 feet down, >I don't know how deep (have never found the energy to dig far enough >down). So far, my efforts have all been to open it up by digging in >compost, leaf mould, fibrous pond dredgings etc. How do my needs to >energise this clay compare with yours in open sandy soil? Tony N-S. Tony, I've found heavy clay is really good soil when enlivened. I'd recommend all the preps including horn clay and do whatever is needed to get high populations of active earthworms. See my experiences with BD No-till. Best Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." --Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 13:10:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA29796 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:10:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05112; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:59:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04746 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:56:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d147.infoserve.net [199.175.157.147]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA15480 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:01:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002201be7232$3c583ea0$939dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: spring on coastal southwestern British Columbia Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:59:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01BE71EF.1CC2BF40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 222 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BE71EF.1CC2BF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Azelea praecox already blooming since sometime in Feb. de-mossing the front lawn (yuck!) digging out the winter compost augmenting mature compost onto the vegie beds lots of bulb plants in bloom (crocuses, some hyacinths, etc.) having thoughts about kayaking rather than showshoeing up the mountain = above us ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BE71EF.1CC2BF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Azelea praecox already blooming = since sometime=20 in Feb.
de-mossing the front lawn (yuck!)
digging out the winter compost
augmenting mature compost onto the vegie = beds
lots of bulb plants in bloom (crocuses, some = hyacinths,=20 etc.)
having thoughts about kayaking rather than = showshoeing up the=20 mountain above us
 
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BE71EF.1CC2BF40-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 13:27:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00188 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:27:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07691; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:17:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from alternatives.com ([204.244.88.165]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07572 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:16:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from georgiah (unverified [204.244.111.85]) by alternatives.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:18:44 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990319101321.007f5790@mail.alternatives.com> X-Sender: conrad@mail.alternatives.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:13:21 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Conrad Subject: Re: spring on coastal southwestern British Columbia In-Reply-To: <002201be7232$3c583ea0$939dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 223 Michael wrote: >>>> Azelea praecox already blooming since sometime in Feb. de-mossing the front lawn (yuck!) <<<<<<<< we like our moss in our front lawn, makes for less mowing >>>> digging out the winter compost augmenting mature compost onto the vegie beds lots of bulb plants in bloom (crocuses, some hyacinths, etc.) having thoughts about kayaking rather than showshoeing up the mountain above us <<<<<<<< I'm in Vancouver, saw a wasp in the garden yesterday, and lots of little ants rummaging around the surface. The horsetails are coming up, but not much other wild plants except lots of grass, dandelions, plantain and buttercups. The little markets are starting to sell transplants too. Conrad "Folk and slave and subjugator will admit it readily: Children of the earth have no boons greater than their personality." --J. W. Goethe From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 14:46:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01947 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:46:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22273; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:35:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22072 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:34:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00A1334D@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:37:25 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 19 Mar 99 14:37:21 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 19 Mar 99 14:37:02 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:37:00 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: OFF: A joke in time saves nine! Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <2DC4457BEF@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 224 Some time ago there was a discussion as to which prep was to be used for invoking the humor element. To that end, I submit the following. A friend sent it to me and it sits especially well with me today as the boiyant levety of Spring Time has me almost Spring-ing right out of this office! > Have you heard this one....? > Mahatma Gandhi walked barefoot throughout the countryside so much that his feet became very hard and calloused. His diet was spare, and he was extremely thin as a result. To keep going, he tried to carry a little bit of garlic with him at all times and chew on it for energy and clarity of thought. Thus Gandhi became known as the.. "Super Calloused Fragile Mystic Blessed With Halitosis" > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 16:01:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA03438 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:01:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05095; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:49:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04997 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:48:55 -0500 (EST) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hOWPa28780 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:50:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <67df0311.36f2b89e@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:50:38 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: OFF Re: Sins against the Mother Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 225 GEO Consensus BDNOW From: tawndor@bellatlantic.net (Steven McFadden) Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Reply-to: bdnow@envirolink.org To: bdnow@envirolink.org In a message dated 99-03-18 09:15:48 EST, you write: << We stand in unified opposition to the disrespectful and fundamentally anti-democratic impulse of >>>>government<<<<< business and science to rush these experiments out into the natural world, and into the food chain for humans and animals with no notice, no debate, and no choice. >>>>>>>>>So, what are we going to do about it????????<<<<<<<<<< >>>>>>.....and we will take whatever measures we can..... to publicly protest......(will we, is that our role??)<<<<<<< Protest: 1. unscientific quackery ("cure-all") 2. the danger to life 3. unfair trade practices I can't think of any spiritual aspects. Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 16:03:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA03489 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:03:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05603; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05036 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:49:08 -0500 (EST) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hDXHa13434 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:50:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:50:37 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: OFF: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 226 In a message dated 99-03-18 07:03:18 EST, you write: << I do think this GM work and computers are the major symptoms of the 1998 events. It s another crossroads - a 'threshold' defined as a line beynd which is the unknown but we have to cross it to grow and things will never be the same again after making the crossing. >> Yes, cross it together, survive the shaking up, and we will recognize each other beyond. Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 16:09:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA03664 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:09:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06448; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:58:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06257 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:57:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00A14A76@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:59:48 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 19 Mar 99 15:59:44 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 19 Mar 99 15:59:30 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:59:29 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: child devpt Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <2F24331ABF@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 227 Subject: Re: LA Times: Pesticides May Harm Brain, Study Says Below are two posts to the Sanet list serve regarding the effect of pesticides, mostly on the development of children. Kevin says that it comes from a book (and so I include his post in case you want to read the book) and Beth sends it in from the LA Times (and I include that in case you want a preview). But the particular paragraphs that I want to concentrate on are the following: "Most of the stick-figure drawings by the 4- and 5-year-olds in the farm valley were unrecognizable as human beings--they look like the scribbles of a 2-year-old. In contrast, drawings by the foothill children had heads, eyes, torsos, arms and legs. "Experts say that the inability to draw a person indicates a breakdown between the brain's ability to process visual information and its ability to control fine muscles. "'Some valley mothers stressed their own frustration in trying to teach their child how to draw. In addition, two valley children drew pictures composed of boxes, arches and lines, claiming these pictures were people' the researchers reported." The little that I know from child development and the interpretation of child art comes from my Waldorf school teachers. I'm under the impression that this is a topic of focus somewhere in Steiner. I'm sure that an anthroposophical interpretation of the drawings would have a lot more to say than just "problem with motor skills" What I'm wondering about is what you all have to say about this. Anita >From SANET, Kevin's post: Much of this article seems to have been based on the book "Our Stolen Future : Are We Threatening Our Fertility, Intelligence, and Survival?-A Scientific Detective Story" by Theo Colburn, et al (ISBN: 0452274141). The book is a must read for anyone seeking an articulate and definitively damning critique of our societys use of chemicals. Theo Colburn is an experienced and respected scientist with a gift for writing clearly and concisely (a rare feat for most scientists). I highly reccomend it. Kevin Webb Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:07:27 -0700 From: colibri@west.net (Beth von Gunten) Subject: LA Times: Pesticides May Harm Brain, Study Says Pesticides May Harm Brain, Study Says Health: Fetuses and young children in farm areas are at highest risk, research suggests, with intelligence, motor skills and personalities affected. By MARLA CONE Los Angeles Times Environmental Writer Monday, March 15, 1999 Children exposed to pesticides in the womb or at an early age may suffer permanent brain defects that could change their lives by altering their behavior and their ability to do everything from drawing a picture to catching a ball, according to new scientific research. Widely used pest-killing chemicals, in amounts routinely found in the environment in farm areas, seem to be capable of skewing thyroid hormones, which control how the brain of a fetus or young child develops, according to a study published today. Scientists say the study and other recent research support an emerging theory that pesticides may exact a toll on the intelligence, motor skills and personalities of infants, toddlers and preschoolers. "Data suggest that we may be raising a generation of children with learning disabilities and hyper-aggression," said Warren Porter, a University of Wisconsin professor of zoology and environmental toxicology. Porter's study, published today in the journal Toxicology and Industrial Health, shows that a common mix of insecticide, herbicide and fertilizer found in drinking water altered the thyroid hormones of young mice. It also changed their aggressiveness--measured by attacks on other mice--and suppressed their immune systems. Although a study of mice alone is not overly compelling, the theory is bolstered by recent research on human beings. In tests in the state of Sonora, Mexico, scientists found striking differences in hand-eye coordination and other mental and physical skills when comparing Yaqui Indian preschoolers in an agrarian region with those in adjacent foothills where no pesticides are used. Four- and 5-year-olds living in the farm valley had trouble performing a variety of simple motor skills--drawing stick figures, catching a 12-inch ball from almost four yards away and a tennis ball from more than a yard away, and dropping raisins into a bottle cap from a distance of six inches. They also had poorer memory skills and stamina, were more prone to physical aggression and angry outbursts, and were less sociable and creative while playing. Farm and household pest-killers are widely used there, and high levels of multiple pesticides have been found in the cord blood of newborns and the breast milk of mothers in the area. Another study, in rural western Minnesota, found increased birth defects in children conceived during the spring growing season. Most of the new research detects problems in agricultural communities--places found not just in rural regions but also in more urbanized areas, including Southern California. No one knows yet what it might mean for people who consume small traces of the chemicals in their food. Earlier this month, Consumers Union reported that many fruits and vegetables contain concentrations of pesticides that may be unhealthful for children. The new hormone studies add to a growing body of research from around the world suggesting that dozens of commonly used pesticides and other chemicals mimic the hormones that control sexual and neurological development. Called endocrine disruption, this is arguably the most controversial environmental issue of the past decade. >From alligators in Florida to polar bears in the Arctic, wild animals in pollution hot spots have been feminized by hormone-disrupting chemicals that imitate estrogen or block testosterone, scientists say. But the impact on human beings--who generally are exposed to much lower levels of pollution--is more controversial and uncertain. In addition to the possible neurological effects, some researchers theorize that the hormone disrupters could be reducing men's sperm counts or increasing diseases of the reproductive system. Pesticide company representatives--and some toxicologists and other scientists -- remain skeptical that commonly found levels of pesticides can alter human thyroid and sex hormones. "I'm kind of dubious that low-level exposures to chemicals are raising all kinds of havoc with the endocrine system," said John McCarthy, vice president of a group representing pesticide manufacturers, the American Crop Protection Assn. "The human system has so many protective mechanisms, and our bodies are bombarded with all kinds of things." Still, he said, the industry is highly concerned about the findings suggesting neurological damage, and would like to see a comprehensive review to evaluate all existing studies and figure out what they collectively show. "We ought to be taking a very hard look at it," McCarthy said. "There's almost a study a week of one type or another, and it's hard to see how it all fits together. We have to take some time to say, 'OK, what does this all mean? Is this something that should require some abrupt change [in pesticides] or fine-tuning or more research?'" No one knows how many pesticides out of 77,000 used in the United States might alter sex or thyroid hormones. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency requires tests that screen pesticides for cancer and birth defects--but not for hormone effects. A committee last year devised new testing requirements--supported by the pesticide industry--that are expected to take effect in 2001. It has long been suspected that various environmental pollutants can damage brain development. Industrial compounds called PCBs have been linked to learning disabilities in children of women who ate contaminated Great Lakes fish. The link to pesticides is far from definitive, however, and big gaps in knowledge remain. Questions abound: How do the contaminants disrupt thyroid levels? What does that physically do to the brain? What dose of exposure does it take? Does the human body have some defense mechanism to fend off low levels of hormones? What do mixes of various man-made and natural hormones do to people? Some scientists suspect that the damage is passed from a mother to her unborn child early in the first trimester, before most women even know they are pregnant. Thyroid hormones guide the nerve cells that dictate how the brain of a fetus develops and the number of brain cells created. One theory is that if a mother receives a dose of pesticides during this critical phase, it can interfere with her thyroid levels -- sometimes raising them, sometimes lowering them--irreversibly altering the child's nervous system. How the child's brain circuitry develops determines his or her hand-eye coordination, motor skills and learning ability. Thyroid hormones also can change behavior--an excess can make people quick to anger, while a low count could have the opposite effect. The hormones also can alter steroids that control aggression and immune systems. "Thyroid hormones are important to brain development, and that's been known for a long time," said Dr. Harley Kornblum, a pediatric neurologist at the UCLA Medical Center. But, he and other neurologists say, it's debatable how important the mother's thyroid level is to the fetus, and it's even more uncertain what role environmental contaminants may play. Porter said children up to age 8 who have developing brains and immune systems are "especially vulnerable" to changes in thyroid hormones. Some symptoms of children exposed to pesticides are similar to attention deficit hyperactivity disorders, which have been increasingly diagnosed in American children. Some medical research supports a link between thyroid hormones and those disorders, but the connection, especially with pesticides, remains unclear. The implication for adults, and whether pesticides might cause thyroid disorders, also is unknown. In the study of 50 Mexican children, the scientists, led by anthropologist Elizabeth Guillette of the University of Arizona, said genetic and social factors--including income, education and health services--are so similar between the farm valley and the foothills that they cannot explain the differences in the youngsters' cognitive ability. "These children share similar genetic background, diets, water mineral contents, cultural patterns and social behaviors. The major difference was their exposure to pesticides," Guillette and Mexican researchers said in a report published in June in the journal Environmental Health Perspectives. Most of the stick-figure drawings by the 4- and 5-year-olds in the farm valley were unrecognizable as human beings--they look like the scribbles of a 2-year-old. In contrast, drawings by the foothill children had heads, eyes, torsos, arms and legs. Experts say that the inability to draw a person indicates a breakdown between the brain's ability to process visual information and its ability to control fine muscles. "Some valley mothers stressed their own frustration in trying to teach their child how to draw. In addition, two valley children drew pictures composed of boxes, arches and lines, claiming these pictures were people," the researchers reported. Other tests pointed to recollection and stamina problems. One foothill child could jump for 336 seconds--over three times longer than the best-performing valley child. Some scientists remain dubious of the results because the tests on the children were unusual, and are intrinsically subjective and difficult to interpret. Dr. Richard Jackson, director of the National Center for Environmental Health at the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said his staff was "unimpressed by the scientific rigor" of the work in the report. McCarthy said that although the differences between the two populations of children seem striking, other hidden factors, rather than pesticide exposure, cannot be ruled out. Other studies, meanwhile, show that pesticide exposure during the first trimester of pregnancy increases birth defects. The University of Minnesota and the federal EPA in a 1996 study found a high rate of birth defects in the children of Minnesotans who work as pesticide appliers as well as the general population of western Minnesota, a major farm region with heavy pesticide use. The defect rate was the highest among babies born nine months after the spring season, indicating that the risk rises for children conceived during the time when pesticide use increases. In Porter's 5-year study of mice, the animals drank water containing a mixture of two pesticides--aldicarb and atrazine--and nitrates from fertilizer. The concentrations ingested by the mice were similar to those found in ground water in many agricultural areas, Porter said. Aldicarb, atrazine and nitrates are the three most abundant agricultural contaminants in the United States, although they do not rank high in use in California. While the mix of the three chemicals altered the mice hormones, each one alone did not. That points out a gaping hole in the federal effort to protect consumers--the EPA only tests for effects of pesticides individually, not cumulatively. The EPA tests, Porter said, "generate a great deal of false confidence in the safety" of pesticides. Source: Environmental Health Perspectives, June 1998. Copyright 1999 Los Angeles Times. All Rights Reserved Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 16:25:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA04002 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:25:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA08967; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:14:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08547 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:10:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ihug.co.nz (p60-max38.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.228.124]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18000 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:13:23 +1300 Message-ID: <36F16A62.6EE4DE9A@ihug.co.nz> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:04:34 +1300 From: I & K Buckingham Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BD No-till Is Different (Long) References: <19990315220048.11514.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 228 Hugh Lovel wrote: > I'm of the thought that the trouble with most BD farms today is they aren't > really developing very fast or very far in terms of life forces. They DO > have more life forces than the farms around them, and they congratulate > themselves on this and let it go. But on a scale of 1 to 100 they see their > neighbors at 2 or 3 and themselves at 8 or 9 and think how far they've come > when they should be thinking how far they have yet to go. When we started down the BD path we were told that after 3 years we would have a biodynamic farm. After 5 years we thought we were beginning to make progress. After 10 years we felt the farm was more "alive" and now look eagerly towards the 20 year mark. At that time I believe the farm will truly begin to have a life of its own. The road may be long, the destination far, but the journey is sweet. Regards Ian Buckingham Maungatawhiri New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 17:30:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA05215 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:30:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA17876; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:18:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17768 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:17:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.1]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:21:45 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:20:22 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 229 Hi Mark & Christine, I'm a bit perplexed by both of your remarks, especially as to how this works exactly as you mean it with the GMO thread and/or bd context...could you both expand a bit more on this please? Thanks... seeking illumination, Jane Sherry In a message dated 99-03-18 07:03:18 EST, you write: << I do think this GM work and computers are the major symptoms of the 1998 events. It s another crossroads - a 'threshold' defined as a line beynd which is the unknown but we have to cross it to grow and things will never be the same again after making the crossing. >> Yes, cross it together, survive the shaking up, and we will recognize each other beyond. Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 21:35:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA09876 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:35:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA11227; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:23:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11017 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:21:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp198.cy-net.net [208.21.195.7]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12144 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:23:48 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7245.0D1F0840@FLYLO>; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:14:11 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7245.0D1F0840@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: a show of hands Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:24:06 -0600 Encoding: 13 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 230 Yesterday, I was digging in new soil. (*Well, new to me anyhow.) I was making some room to put rosemary in amongst the newly forming herb bed, planted out some cherry tomatoes, and dug around the sprouting blackberry vines. Generally, had my hands in the dirt for a number of hours. Normally, I can wash my hands after playing in the dirt and go about my business, but I noticed they were very dry and 'stiff'. Even after washing, they took quite awhile to get moisture back to skin surface. Now, normally, I'd have just thought, ok, work in the garden, your hands get dry and rough. (no real big deal). But I'm now wondering (thanks to you BD gang) if the soil itself wasn't using or taking the oils and particles from my skin surface. Well, it had to go SOMEWHERE, didn't it? martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 21:35:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA09886 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:35:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA11272; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:23:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11112 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:22:12 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA08408; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:23:54 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:23:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md18-51.ix.netcom.com(205.184.107.51) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma008394; Fri Mar 19 20:23:39 1999 To: uai@stc.net To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <1999319212527628145@ix.netcom.com> Subject: OFF: what's going on? X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 231 On 03/19/99 08:09:26 you wrote: > >Beanman writes: > > >>How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses >>built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to a toxic city to >>do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money >>to give to someone else in order to eat food? That's dumb. > >Beanman, > >Absolutely! Nobody's accusing the human race of being intelligent and wise, >though a few scattered individuals have won that accolade. The masses >routinely line up behind a juggernaut to Hell while proclaiming its >goodness and righteousness. Nor are we lacking in role models for this >amongst the angels and gods. What do you think is going on? > >Best, > >Hugh Lovel >Blairsville, Georgia I changed the email sig to eliminate the "that's dumb" part, because that's just too judgemental, which I'm working at shedding. Got a good reminder today not to assume that only I and persons similar to me know that things are amuck. Most know it, I'd say, they're just unsure/afraid to steer a different course. There are no models to get out of the 9-5/mortgage/2 cars/kids mode and survive. Not in the mass media anyway. Most of my hometown friends (in NJ; I'm currently in Accokeek, MD) would love a different life, but just don't know how to make the switch while keeping shelter and food on the plate. And I understand. On that note, I can resent Monsanto/corporations etc. for their "wrong doings," but am I capable of reaching out to them in a way that would help them See better? Maybe they just DON'T want to, but I feel a truely loving person could see in someone that one string to pluck that would start a whole new set of vibrations for someone. There is the challenge I put before myself, and it feels like a vertical cliff! So, what do I think is going on? Well, probably lots more than I know, and maybe lots more than any human could know. >From a religious perspective, I do feel strongly that the notion of being "banned from Eden" has left a psychic scar on our culture, thus we trash Earth/the Garden as spiteful infants railing against God the punisher (like a teen getting thrown out of High School then going back that night and throwing rocks thru the windows). I also feel the notion of a "savior" and a "second coming" justifies passivity in some people's minds, whether they be actively religious or not. It fosters a "someone else is going to take care of it all" mentality. Likewise, the notion that "life is about suffering until heaven" could allow for indifference to this world while begrudingly waiting for bliss. On that note, last night I thought about this and felt that, yes, life HAS suffering, but is ABOUT healing (in part). But a lot of what's going on is that, for whatever reasons, "we" have lost sacred connection to Spirit, Mystery, manifestation of such, and forsaken the ceremonies and rituals to honor them and more importantly to connect us to them psychically, to initiate us to new levels, including from childhood to adulthood. Yes, our religious institutions have ceremonies and rituals, but what are they really giving us if when we leave the place of worship we go to a job/lifestyle that is killing the planet? Well, I could go on... I welcome any dialog on this, since I'm just feeling things out and trying to understand why the human race has made a habit of stamping out life. Lastly, I'm not Christian-bashing. I'm really cautious to not want to offend anyone, but do need to be able to look at where I feel things went/are going awry. Lastly, thanks to y'all for what you're doing in this world. I've been needing to relate to others about Spirit in ag, and have only really found it on this list. Sure, BD isn't the be all end all, but it certainly is a huge breath of fresh air for me. Feeling my Eyes getting wider, Happy Gardening, Paco aka John E. Verin BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 19 21:49:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA10028 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:49:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12621; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:38:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12387 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:36:04 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA01065 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:38:16 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:38:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md18-51.ix.netcom.com(205.184.107.51) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma001046; Fri Mar 19 20:37:45 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <1999319213933611942@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Fwd: [cg] anti-Monsanto global protest - sins against Mother and Father X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 232 From: Community Food Security Coalition To: Community Food Security Coalition Subject: COMFOOD-L digest 57 Date: Thu, Mar 18, 1999, 12:01 AM On February 7, 1999, over 40 representatives of activist groups from around the world met in Cuernavaca, Mexico to share experiences and to plan a global grassroots campaign against the Monsanto Corporation and genetically engineered foods. While mass-based grassroots campaigns have partially blocked genetically engineered foods and crops thus far in Western Europe and India, activists in North America, South America, Africa, and much of Asia and the Pacific still have a long way to go in terms of grassroots education, Movement-building, and mobilization. Especially in the United States activists have been stymied by a powerful Monsanto lobbying and PR campaign that has coopted or bought off the Congress and the White House, intimidated the media, and forced several dozen unlabeled, untested genetically engineered foods onto the marketplace. At the present time 51.3 million acres (out of a global total of 69.5 million) of US farmland are planted in genetically engineered crops, including 45% of all cotton crops; 32% of soybeans; 25% of corn; and 3.5% of potatoes. In addition 700,000 dairy cows are being injected with Monsanto's rBGH every two weeks. Most non-organic processed food in the US now contains at least trace levels of genetically engineered ingredients. To help build the kind of U.S. and global Movement required to bring Monsanto and the other GE Giants under control, and to move global agriculture and global economic development in a sustainable and organic direction, food and agriculture activists at the February 7 Cuernavaca meeting endorsed the call for Global Days of Action against Monsanto and genetic engineering on April 15-30. The interim Monsanto Campaign steering committee of Vandana Shiva (India), Mika Iba (Japan), Tony Clarke (Canada), and Ronnie Cummins (USA) are calling on activists all over the world to step up their activism against Monsanto and genetic engineering, using the fourth annual April 15-30 Global Days of Action as a vehicle for amplifying our message, building our local and national activist networks, and further strengthening our international solidarity. Food Bytes was endorsed at the Cuernavaca meeting as an international clearinghouse for anti-Monsanto and Global Days of Action activities. If you are planning anti-Monsanto/GDA activities during April 15-30, please send us the details at Food Bytes so we can inform the media as well as activists all over the world. And of course in Western Europe and India, where nearly every day has now become a Global Day of Action against Monsanto and genetic engineering, keep up the good work! Further details on the April GDA will be posted on the web at http://www.purefood.org Happy Gardening, Paco aka John E. Verin BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 00:45:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11689 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:45:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA27177; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:33:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA26913 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:30:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max16-5.stc.net [208.210.138.133]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA10051 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:33:37 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36F16A62.6EE4DE9A@ihug.co.nz> References: <19990315220048.11514.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:10:03 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD No-till Is Different (Long) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 233 >Hugh Lovel wrote: > >> I'm of the thought that the trouble with most BD farms today is they aren't >> really developing very fast or very far in terms of life forces. They DO >> have more life forces than the farms around them, and they congratulate >> themselves on this and let it go. But on a scale of 1 to 100 they see their >> neighbors at 2 or 3 and themselves at 8 or 9 and think how far they've come >> when they should be thinking how far they have yet to go. > >When we started down the BD path we were told that after 3 years we >would have a biodynamic farm. After 5 years we thought we were beginning >to make progress. After 10 years we felt the farm was more "alive" and >now look eagerly towards the 20 year mark. At that time I believe the >farm will truly begin to have a life of its own. >The road may be long, the destination far, but the journey is sweet. > >Regards > >Ian Buckingham >Maungatawhiri >New Zealand Ian, No doubt your experience has been shared by numerous others. In my own case the first 8 years I was backing up, and the next four I saw a little progress. The next ten achieved the goal of a farm I felt was alive. Well, that's a long time! Sheesh! I've long thought that though this is the norm, it should be the exception. I've seen reason to believe that land can be brought to life in a much shorter time and to much fuller life in the same amount of time. I don't think it is just some special touch that I've developed a special flair for this sort of thing. It's something that I find inexplicable. I may not be all that good a farmer in terms of making things pay, and as you can tell by reading my contributions to this list, I like to communicate rather than keep my nose to the grindstone fencing, hauling rocks, forking manure, etc. But nowadays if I want to bring a piece of land to life I figure out what is required and I don't waste much in either time or resources. I'm reminded of when I worked bridge construction in Atlanta, about the time I quit moving backwards farming and began to make progress. I started on this crew under the bridge salvaging out all the lumber from previous form work for reuse. I soon saw that most pieces were very similar, only varying by a couple inches total and quarters and eighths of an inch at a time. I couldn't see any reason not to do the best job I knew how so as I pulled nails and stacked I sized everything and marked the sizes on each piece. I could see that if this was done a carpenter need only grab the right piece and nail it in, no cutting, no waste of time or materials. So I did this. Then I was soon put up on the bridge and was building overhang formwork. The leader of the steel tieing crew that followed us around month after month finally remarked to me, "You guys waste less wood than anyone I've ever seen. Well, truly our scrap pile was really small, and we sent fewer saw blades in to be sharpened, put up our overhangs faster, the whole bit. All from seeing that I could mark the size on every piece and what all that would save. One fellow said, "You're working yourself out of a job!" "Of course." I responded. "That's so I can go on to the next job. I wouldn't want to be stuck on the same job forever, would I?" Quite naturally I want to get my BD preps to work, and with the cosmic pipe I'm getting them out there the best I've ever seen. But I lime when I have to lime, I supply boron if that's needed, or grit if that's needed; I put out seeds, bird feed, I work through a series of successive plantings, I sow mixed covers, etc. My harvesting and care of crops may look messy to some, but it's good for the land. I'm far from weed free, for instance. But that's good for the land. Hugh Williams remarked upon seeing my market garden, "I love your rough culture." Well, I could see it was good for the land to do things that way, even if it was not all that good for production. And if I see some pest or disease consuming a crop, I write it off. Maybe I could save it, but I can see it'll never be as healthy as I'd want to eat. So when people ask me what I do about the bugs, probably expecting all kinds of sophisticated procedures, I say, "I just watch. Sometimes I learn something." And this may not be good for production or the bottom line, but it is good for my land and for my customer who doesn't buy something I've had to rescue. Needless to say my farm is not the common stereotype of a well-run farm. But I can bring soil to life PDQ (pretty durn quick). Recently I've been learning to bring the atmosphere to life too. Now I'm getting soil and atmosphere to interact better and better. I'm learning more and more about the interplay and what sucks the life forces up from the depths and inhales them from the heights--what minerals, what plants, what activities, what timing and cycles. And I'm just scratching the surface of the potential that's there. Biodynamic farming has a finger to find the pulse and a key ring with enough keys to fit the locks and yet, I see mostly modest progress with very conservative expectations and even more conservative results. Quite frankly I'm puzzled that it has taken biodynamics so long to get where it is today. It's not the fault of biodynamic philosophy. This stuff is really powerful! The preps are really potent medicines. I'm increasingly surprised at how potent. I'm just learning now, after 23 years and lots of insight and success, how to really do BD. Surely I'm not the only one ever to have this experience. I know others. For example, Harvey Lisle realized after nearly thirty years that if he put his preps in his compost pile in little vials they wouldn't be digested by the pile and would work as well at the end as at the beginning--and then he could put these same preps in his new pile! Steiner drew an illustration (in the second discussion, page 110, AGRICULTURE) of how the preps radiate their influences through the pile, so Harvey tried his idea and it worked. In fact it is the most workable method I've seen. It both works better and is more economical. Anyway I'm puzzled, just like I was puzzled when I realized I must mark the measurments on every board I salvaged under the bridge. How come nobody else wrote down the measurments before? How come there's so much foot dragging on the thought planes and so much drudgery in the physical? Why are we making such slow progress in the successful development of more BD farms? Puzzled, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." --Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 01:18:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA11926 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 01:18:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA28967; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 01:07:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA28913 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 01:06:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.164] ("port 2052"@[148.233.186.164]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.11.13.11.10) with ESMTP id <0F8V00M3E8P35W@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:46:35 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:47:36 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: the price of freedom for all life In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <199931905446617421@ix.netcom.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id BAA28914 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 234 >That's only survival, however, just tactics. > >The long range view, the strategic question of how will we craft a wiser >social order begs for answers on the borders of our thought. We must >address this issue. We can't go much further with just tactics. > >It's deserving of a lot of thought. > >Best, > > >Hugh Lovel >Blairsville, Georgia > >"No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." >--Walter Russell Hi Hugh: You are an author, can I suggest you write a book or a few articles on the subject and putting forward the issues that most be taking to the border of our thoughts in order to shift to a new social-economic-political order paradigm. (probably in the light of agriculture). I am sure many on this list will be glad to cooperate in the project, if only someone with your experience and clarity would take the stand. I for one, would humbly cooperate with my thoughts and appreciation of things. Probably we all, and with the help of visionaries like RS, could come up with a strategy. For me it would be good, given that confussion and the need to compromise with the status quo are always there in my life decisions. Be well and thanks Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 01:24:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA12019 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 01:24:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA29218; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 01:13:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA29186 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 01:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 25070 invoked from network); 19 Mar 1999 23:15:35 -0700 Received: from ts2-01.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO cyberhighway.net) (209.161.18.152) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 19 Mar 1999 23:15:35 -0700 Message-ID: <36F33D0B.87EA61BF@cyberhighway.net> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:15:40 -0700 From: Pam DeTray Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: White Dancing Moon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BD No-till/Preps radiating References: <19990315220048.11514.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 235 Hugh Lovel wrote: > For example, Harvey Lisle realized > after nearly thirty years that if he put his preps in his compost pile in > little vials they wouldn't be digested by the pile and would work as well > at the end as at the beginning--and then he could put these same preps in > his new pile! Steiner drew an illustration (in the second discussion, page > 110, AGRICULTURE) of how the preps radiate their influences through the > pile, so Harvey tried his idea and it worked. In fact it is the most > workable method I've seen. It both works better and is more economical. Oh, Hugh, please expand on this. I've read it and thought about it, and I still don't quite get it. If the preps radiate their influences through the pile, does that not expend those forces? If not, then why do we need to keep them in peat moss until we use them? Pam DeTray psdetray@cyberhighway.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 02:41:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA13035 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:41:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA02312; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:30:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA02164 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:27:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max19-82.stc.net [208.210.143.81]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA16586 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:29:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36F33D0B.87EA61BF@cyberhighway.net> References: <19990315220048.11514.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:07:42 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD No-till/Preps radiating Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 236 >Hugh Lovel wrote: > >> For example, Harvey Lisle realized >> after nearly thirty years that if he put his preps in his compost pile in >> little vials they wouldn't be digested by the pile and would work as well >> at the end as at the beginning--and then he could put these same preps in >> his new pile! Steiner drew an illustration (in the second discussion, page >> 110, AGRICULTURE) of how the preps radiate their influences through the >> pile, so Harvey tried his idea and it worked. In fact it is the most >> workable method I've seen. It both works better and is more economical. > >Oh, Hugh, please expand on this. I've read it and thought about it, and >I still don't quite get it. If the preps radiate their influences >through the pile, does that not expend those forces? If not, then why do >we need to keep them in peat moss until we use them? > >Pam DeTray >psdetray@cyberhighway.net Dear Pam, Are the forces of a stained-glass mandala expended as it radiates upon the altar? And for that matter, sticking the preps in the pile is not much different than keeping them in peat moss. Both are highly organic materials that attract life forces. It's a little difficult to realize that in the world of dead things what prevails is the second law of thermodynamics, the rule of ever increasing entropy, ever increasing disorder, the rule that things go from higher concentration to lower concentration. The opposite is true in the world of living things. The second law of thermodynamics does not apply and things grow from being less ordered to being more ordered. Life energy, life forces, go from lower concentration to higher concentration. You even see it in love affairs that people of remarkable similarity will get together. For some reason, in school we are mostly taught about the world of dead things to the exclusion of the world of life. So don't feel bad for being chained around the neck by such tenuous strands of instruction and belief. Slip your chains. Break out. Open your thinking to what really happens with life. Think how and under what conditions it multiplies--you'll never be the same. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." --Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 02:56:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA13094 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:56:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA03348; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:45:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA03315 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:44:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max19-82.stc.net [208.210.143.81]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA17187 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:47:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199931905446617421@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:25:22 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: the price of freedom for all life Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 237 > >Hi Hugh: > >You are an author, can I suggest you write a book or a few articles on the >subject and putting forward the issues that most be taking to the border >of our thoughts in order to shift to a new social-economic-political order >paradigm. (probably in the light of agriculture). > >I am sure many on this list will be glad to cooperate in the project, if >only someone with your experience and clarity would take the stand. I for >one, would humbly cooperate with my thoughts and appreciation of things. > >Probably we all, and with the help of visionaries like RS, could come up >with a strategy. For me it would be good, given that confussion and the >need to compromise with the status quo are always there in my life >decisions. > >Be well and thanks > > >Guillermo Romero I. Dear Guillermo, A start might be reading something like Steiner's THREEFOLD SOCIAL ORDER, which I think may be back in print under another title. I'll have to think about this. It's not like I have nothing else to do. But no doubt social commentary will burst forth from my keypad like starshells over a battlefield from time to time. I don't seem to control when inspiration strikes. I found while in Wisconsin at the Upper Midwest Organic meet that a former apprentice, Farmer D, had been having his first taste of political activism--and liking it. Having any effect on things politically is nearly hopeless--but not quite. If we bring our genius and industry to bear you might be surprised what comes from it. What IS completely hopeless is to lapse into apathy, or perhaps worse yet, to violently destroy that which you purport to save. Shades of abortion bombers for the cause of the right to life! Why doesn't someone comment on my post about the potential of genetic modification for planetary enslavement? Seems to me this is the kind of issue that argues that it is necessary to become politically aware and active. Who is doing the GMO stuff? Corporations. What is a corporation? What are the laws like that corporations are able to get away with so much as they do? Who is aware of this kind of thing? Anybody? Well, it's time to become aware. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." --Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 03:16:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA13251 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 03:16:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA04108; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 03:06:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA04066 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 03:05:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([203.96.104.39]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990320080902.BMAF682101.mta1-rme@default> for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:09:02 +1300 Message-ID: <36F35808.655C@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:10:48 +1300 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Horn clay /heavy clay soils/no till Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 238 Dear Tony and BD list folk. I also have a heavy clay soil 12 inches of clay loam over 8 ft of yellow clay with the odd iron pan on some parts of the property, which means cultivation problems when conditions are wet.When I was a chemical grower sometimes I would have to make 3 or 4 passes with the rotary hoe using a 40 hp tractor and would have to cultivate again after heavy rain. Since I have been a Bd grower, I started in March 1993 with aprep 500 spray I have observed the following. Improved drainage in within 15 to 18 months of using prep 500. 50 to 60 year old field drains started to work again. I could drive a tractor over my paddocks 3 to 4 days after heavy rain normally I would have had to wait for weeks or months for the land to dry out enough. I can now cultivate with a set of tine cultivaters using a 26 hp tractor to a depth of 10 to 12 inches after 2 or 3 passes. I do a worm count 3 x a year around about autumn, winter and spring soltice with counts averageing between 100 and 150 worms per sq metre My compost is spread as a layer 1 to 2 inches deep over the surface and the worms are pulling the compost down into the clay subsoil and each years cultivation is getting easier and the soil is more friable and is very easier to plant seedling plugs into. This has been achievedby using Prep 500 Barrel Compost and heaps of BD compost and a little green cropping mainly weeds and the growing of blue lupin as a green crop and mulched . Thanks to the Hughes posts on horn clay I will now put down some horn clay this autunm and apply it in the spring and observe what happens with excitement as my clay soils have a history of locking up nutrients and 2 of my oldests growing houses have not changed as quickly as the other 6 and are still causing me some concern. Cheers Tony Robinson Rambler Flowers. New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 09:13:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16162 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:13:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18686; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:01:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA10068 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:54:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max17-34.stc.net [208.210.139.34]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA21976 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:57:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36F35808.655C@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:35:23 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Horn clay /heavy clay soils/no till Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 239 >Thanks to the Hughes posts on horn clay I will now put down some horn >clay this autunm and apply it in the spring and observe what happens >with excitement as my clay soils have a history of locking up nutrients >and 2 of my oldests growing houses have not changed as quickly as the >other 6 and are still causing me some concern. > >Cheers >Tony Robinson >Rambler Flowers. >New Zealand Tony, Right on! Hugh Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." --Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 09:13:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16164 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:13:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18731; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:02:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15643 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:10:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp199.cy-net.net [208.21.195.8]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA20757 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:12:53 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE729F.B38D48E0@FLYLO>; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:03:05 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE729F.B38D48E0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: Evil Empire Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:53:45 -0600 Encoding: 41 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 240 I've thought about trying to comment on Hugh's posts: << (Why doesn't someone comment on my post about the potential of genetic modification for planetary enslavement? Seems to me this is the kind of issue that argues that it is necessary to become politically aware and active. Who is doing the GMO stuff? Corporations. What is a corporation? What are the laws like that corporations are able to get away with so much as they do? Who is aware of this kind of thing? Anybody? Well, it's time to become aware.)>> I don't know where to start. Having worked for Conoco (also part of the EE system, being a subsidiary of DuPont), I can say that talking about Monsanto like it is a great many headed beast is slightly off course. But not totally untrue. going after it as a whole is a mistake. Who are the heads of the departments in the areas that are creating the GE seeds? How much say-so do they have. What do their families feel about the results of their actions. Is the paycheck to pocketbook the only motivation for all concerned? Why not go after Delta Pine? Would it be easier to track the GE trail from that company? When does either company meets with stockholders and board members? Are there any open (civilian) meetings ever held? Where do they handle complaints for each company aspect? CEO's only really deal with overall blanket 'what's going to improve our company'. Their decision making actually is fairly limited. Most of the acts are already implemented or ready to be implemented by the time it reaches this level. Dig deeper and find out the infrastructure and work on the smaller roads before going for the Monsanto freeway. You may come up with the discovery that it is really XYZ ag labs that is funded by Monsanto to create these 'wonder seeds'. And that lab could be having an attack of consciousness on it's own. May not take much to convince them of all possibilities. just a thought. I doubt that any outside forces will stop the flow of the GE tide at this point. I do hope that within the corporate structure, there are people who are also gardeners, farmers, concerned parents, who have looked with awe at their new creations only to have that awe turn to horror at the extensive possibilities. This is the level that change within a big company will have to occur. They have to know about RAFI, so some will have to wonder which side is actually right. martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 09:13:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16176 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:13:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18812; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:02:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16523 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:22:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0103.direct.ca ([204.244.83.3] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10OLkY-0006Ka-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:25:14 -0800 Message-ID: <36F3A0AE.938435CA@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:20:46 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: horn clay References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 241 Dear Hugh, Unlike 500, horn clay really does not dissolve very well in water (even during a one hour stirring time). So, I think you have to dissolve it first in a bit of water (warm) and then add it to the barrell. that is my observation. Regards Ferdinand Hugh Lovel wrote: > > Dear Hugh- Where in the spraying sequence does horn clay fit in, > >would you spray after the 500 and before the first application of 501? > >Would you always try and time your horn clay application with a post-501 > >spraying. Is there any horn clay available for the '99 season? with > >earthy regards, Parker > > I'll soon have some spring to spring horn clay. I think that's not the > best, but the best I presently have for manual application. > > There's many ways of looking at this. Suppose you try the following. Spray > the horn clay one evening, then the 501 the next morning, the 500 that > evening and the horn clay again the following morning. Or use your > intuition if you have better ideas. > > Best > > Hugh Lovel > Blairsville, Georgia > > "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." > --Walter Russell -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 09:13:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16186 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:13:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18778; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:02:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16502 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:22:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0103.direct.ca ([204.244.83.3] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10OLkA-0006K3-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:24:50 -0800 Message-ID: <36F3A096.9AB89E27@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:20:22 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BD Discussion Group Bio-Dynamics Subject: [Fwd: E-mail address for Demeter Switzerland, please] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------893FA4F17680DB6BAC9A25FE" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 242 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------893FA4F17680DB6BAC9A25FE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To anybody interested in BD in Switzerland, please contact the above address. Regards Ferdinand -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 --------------893FA4F17680DB6BAC9A25FE Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by gouda (mbox ferdy) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Fri Mar 19 14:06:46 1999) X-From_: Demeterbd@aol.com Thu Mar 18 23:56:39 1999 Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com ([198.81.17.7]) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10Nu8w-00078H-00 for ferdy@direct.ca; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:56:34 -0800 Received: from Demeterbd@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id 3KZUa04832 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 02:55:42 -0500 (EST) From: Demeterbd@aol.com Message-ID: <746f19d0.36f202fe@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 02:55:42 EST To: ferdy@direct.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: E-mail address for Demeter Switzerland, please Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 2 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 The email-adress of DEMETER-Schwitzerland is: Kuefferheer@access.ch. Best regards DEMETER-Bund e. V. Petra T=F6lkes --------------893FA4F17680DB6BAC9A25FE-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 09:13:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16194 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:13:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18877; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:02:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheddar.direct.ca (cheddar.direct.ca [199.60.229.16]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16537 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:22:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0103.direct.ca ([204.244.83.3] helo=direct.ca) by cheddar.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #20) id 10OLkN-0007aq-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:25:03 -0800 Message-ID: <36F3A0B8.79BFC4CF@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:20:56 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BD No-till Is Different (Long) References: <19990315220048.11514.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> <36F16A62.6EE4DE9A@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 243 Ian! Congratulations! That's what I call a realistic approach to BD. My observation is this: Until the sun has gone through all the zodiac signs, (from the moment I have started to work my land bio-dynamically) I really cannot really speak of a true BD farm. Each 'house' brings new aspects to the farmer and the farm (plants, animals, soil). And from then onwards, the second set of 12 years makes it even more interesting. Yes, it will take sweet time. All the best. Ferdinand I & K Buckingham wrote: > Hugh Lovel wrote: > > > I'm of the thought that the trouble with most BD farms today is they aren't > > really developing very fast or very far in terms of life forces. They DO > > have more life forces than the farms around them, and they congratulate > > themselves on this and let it go. But on a scale of 1 to 100 they see their > > neighbors at 2 or 3 and themselves at 8 or 9 and think how far they've come > > when they should be thinking how far they have yet to go. > > When we started down the BD path we were told that after 3 years we > would have a biodynamic farm. After 5 years we thought we were beginning > to make progress. After 10 years we felt the farm was more "alive" and > now look eagerly towards the 20 year mark. At that time I believe the > farm will truly begin to have a life of its own. > The road may be long, the destination far, but the journey is sweet. > > Regards > > Ian Buckingham > Maungatawhiri > New Zealand -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 09:13:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16202 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:13:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18929; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheddar.direct.ca (cheddar.direct.ca [199.60.229.16]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16569 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0103.direct.ca ([204.244.83.3] helo=direct.ca) by cheddar.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #20) id 10OLkf-0007bG-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:25:22 -0800 Message-ID: <36F3A0CB.F0F4136F@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:21:15 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF Re: Sins against the Mother References: <67df0311.36f2b89e@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 244 Well said, Christine. Regards Ferdinand Lilipoh@aol.com wrote: > GEO Consensus BDNOW > From: tawndor@bellatlantic.net (Steven McFadden) > Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org > Reply-to: bdnow@envirolink.org > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > > In a message dated 99-03-18 09:15:48 EST, you write: > > << We stand in unified opposition to the disrespectful and fundamentally > anti-democratic impulse of >>>>government<<<<< business and science to rush > these experiments out into the natural world, and into the food chain for > humans and animals with no notice, no debate, and no choice. > >>>>>>>>>So, what are we going to do about it????????<<<<<<<<<< > >>>>>>.....and we will take whatever measures we can..... to publicly > protest......(will we, is that our role??)<<<<<<< > Protest: 1. unscientific quackery ("cure-all") > 2. the danger to life > 3. unfair trade practices > I can't think of any spiritual aspects. > Christine -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 09:14:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16212 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:13:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18987; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:03:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16758 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:25:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp199.cy-net.net [208.21.195.8]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA21481 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:28:14 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE72A1.D97CF9E0@FLYLO>; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:18:27 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE72A1.D97CF9E0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: Inform the Media? become the media Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:13:46 -0600 Encoding: 14 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 245 Catching up on old mail so if this has come up since, sorry for the repost. But something Beanman said about informing the media about going against GE and Monsanto Corp on April 15 - 30. too short notice to work, but if anyone is talented in the areas of film or fiction, write this story up as pure science fiction. Make the results something that can be understood by the masses who flock to get mindless in front of the movie screen. Call it ANNIHILATOR. Invite famous Action Figures to play key roles. (and a group of Bioneers really do 'save the day'.) in this story anyhow. Later they can realize, Life really does 'follow art'. No one has to know it started out the other way around. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 09:14:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16220 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:14:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19030; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:03:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17771 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:44:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0103.direct.ca ([204.244.83.3] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10OM5S-00079s-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:46:50 -0800 Message-ID: <36F3A5B7.77307A11@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:42:15 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: preps humor & Potentising Preparations References: <01BE7180.D1F99560@FLYLO> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 246 Dear Martha! Firstly, I am sure you read Dr. R. Steiner's Agricultural Course. Then you know that quantity is not the name in BD. It is quality. I am sure Highland cattle will provide this, too. However, IF the moment came and the 'farmers of this world' would realise what Preparation 500 (and 501) can do for their fields and crop, neither all the cow horns of all the cown on Mother Earth nor their hooves plus the Horses' manes (which can be used too!) would be enough. The demand would VASTLY outstrip supply!! We have to find totally new ways to use EVEN less preparation(s) (per acre) than indicated by Dr. Steiner's. We may have to potentize the final product i.e. 'thin it down' further. In other words: it is of utmost importance that we find NEW ways of how we can make more (Preparations) out of less (starting material such as horns, intestines, stag bladders etc. etc.). That's the reason I have been working for years on finding ways to make potentized BD Preps. I believe I have found some solutions. A lot remains to be done. I am convinced the day will come when we have to step forward and present our findings so that large sclae cathastrophes can be avoided or reduced. You see the times have vastly changed since 1924. We have reached a point in the evolution of this earth which Dr. Steiner had hoped could be avoided. Extraordinary efforts are demanded from each of us. Martha Wells wrote: > Now, I know a variety of things are packed into cow horns, but for the life > of me, having collected skulls and horns a lot, I can't figure out what > that little dab could do, the amount packed inside a single horn is rather > small. But, I've seen Ferdinand's photo of his horn 'wheel' and I'd imagine > quite a bit of finished material would be unearthed, given the quantities > of horns he uses. > Then it hit me. The reason everyone on list is wild for Scotch Highlands is > that they have horns longer than our fabled Texas Longhorns. Bury a stack > of those and now you're getting somewhere. > On the other hand, you'd have to wait quite awhile because they're said to > be very long lived cows. (martha) -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 10:03:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16655 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:03:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22214; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:52:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22089 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:50:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0115.direct.ca ([204.244.83.15] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10ON7m-00028M-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:53:18 -0800 Message-ID: <36F3B539.F827EF8@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:48:25 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Astro-Agriculture looking downward References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 247 More and more: we are influenced by very strong and significant forces that are streaming towards the surface of this earth from the very core of it. As much as there should be an astronomy and astrology of the cosmos, we need an astronomy and astrology of the depth of this, our Mother Earth. There are 'cosmic' events happening beneath our feet that may unlock the (at times strange) behaviour of mankind. If we make an effort of thinking just a bit about what 'dangers' lie beneath us (and beneficial events), we may come to understand that looking downwards may be of 'even greater' significance than looking outward. However, looking downward demands that we become as well trained as the Druids who were able to 'see' through stone. Christ has united himself with the earth and in the process of bringing healing energies to us, is changing the entire 'subterranean' cosmos. Some of Robert Powell's books may be of interest in this connection. However, Dr. Steiner gave countless lectures on this topic, too. Regards Ferdinand Hugh Lovel wrote: > So is this too weird? What say you spiritual, star-watching servants of the > earth? > > Searching, > > Julie > > Julie, > > The idea that life on this planet is affected by the streams of life forces > from both inner and outer planets, to say nothing of the Sun, and that this > all works in the context of the widest reaches of the cosmos (via the > constellations) is not wierd at all. It is what is happening. We fool > ourselves into thinking we are independent of such things because we have a > certain degree of emancipation from the rhythms and cycles. We think maybe > the idea that the stars affect us is crackpot. But actually this is where > life comes from and goes to and we are just fooling ourselves to think > otherwise. > > Best, > > Hugh Lovel > Blairsville, Georgia > > "If you want what visible reality can give, you're an employee. > If you want the unseen world, you're not living your truth. > Both wishes are foolish, but you'll be forgiven for forgetting > that what you really want is love's confusing joy." --Rumi -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 10:24:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16843 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:24:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23428; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:13:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23258 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:11:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0115.direct.ca ([204.244.83.15] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10ONRz-00033B-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:14:12 -0800 Message-ID: <36F3B9E1.9977BAEC@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:08:17 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BD Discussion Group Bio-Dynamics Subject: Milk....... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 248 Dear friends, When slaughtering cows, we had to kill a few from a dairy herd. What a shock. I, now, call their milk PUSS MILK. You should have seed the udders. Totally deformed. Some hollow. Inflamed. Possibly Antibiotically treated. How can one drink such s.it? I felt sorry for the cow (tears) and disgusted. Never again 'regular' milk on my table. Forget it. Drink Rice Milk, Soya Milk, Almond Milk. As indicated in an earlier post. The threshold of milk production (for a cow) was passed around 1980 when the weight (of milk) had reached a volume that stripped the cow of most of its etheric life body. I have not studied the latest developments, however, with hormones and other input production may be pushed even higher and the cow, then, will collapse in full (if she has not already done so). >From an etheric point of observation the following: It appeared to me as if the cow (dairy herd cow) was surrounded by a dark, if not black, ring. What appears to be (somewhat) colorful circles that surround otherwise (somewhat) healthy cows, nothing of the same could be seen around the dairy herd cow. As a matter of fact said cow(s) - a number were killed - appeared to be blown up like a balloon (hollow or void of the life color patterns which other cows display). The wild, cancerogene mass of this cow (sorry for such a comparison, however similar colors and pictures also appear in such context) this mass appeared to be inhabited by the strangest, un-cow-like forms and 'colors' I have ever seen. Keep your hands off the meat and milk. Regards Ferdinand -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 11:27:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17402 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 11:27:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29022; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 11:17:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28732 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 11:13:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.136] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.136]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.11.13.11.10) with ESMTP id <0F8W00LBLI8AVB@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:09:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:15:52 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Milk....... In-reply-to: <36F3B9E1.9977BAEC@direct.ca> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA28733 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 249 >Dear friends, >When slaughtering cows, we had to kill a few from a dairy herd. What a >shock. I, now, call their milk PUSS MILK. You should have seed the >udders. Totally deformed. Some hollow. Inflamed. Possibly Antibiotically >treated. How can one drink such s.it? I felt sorry for the cow (tears) >and disgusted. Never again 'regular' milk on my table. Forget it. Drink >Rice Milk, Soya Milk, Almond Milk. As indicated in an earlier post. The >threshold of milk production (for a cow) was passed around 1980 when the >weight (of milk) had reached a volume that stripped the cow of most of >its etheric life body. I have not studied the latest developments, >however, with hormones and other input production may be pushed even >higher and the cow, then, will collapse in full (if she has not already >done so). > >>From an etheric point of observation the following: It appeared to me as >if the cow (dairy herd cow) was surrounded by a dark, if not black, >ring. What appears to be (somewhat) colorful circles that surround >otherwise (somewhat) healthy cows, nothing of the same could be seen >around the dairy herd cow. As a matter of fact said cow(s) - a number >were killed - appeared to be blown up like a balloon (hollow or void of >the life color patterns which other cows display). The wild, cancerogene >mass of this cow (sorry for such a comparison, however similar colors >and pictures also appear in such context) this mass appeared to be >inhabited by the strangest, un-cow-like forms and 'colors' I have ever >seen. Keep your hands off the meat and milk. Regards Ferdinand Hi Ferdinand: I do not know if I understood your post correctly or if I am twisting things around for my own sake, let me ask. So what you are saying is, that a cow is willing to share some of it's milk with us humans (with no ill effects either to her or it's calfs), but we have abused the benefits manipulating things to reach whatever milk output threeshold traspased around 1980. Can you say something about the "healthy" level of milk that a cow would be able to share, without putting the calf on supplemental or substitute feedings, and without stealing her etheric wellbeing. I am a vegan and I do not like keeping large animals for my own use, but in order to achieve the whole farm organism, I do see the need to have some animals and small cows will be my prefered choice. >From a nutritional point of view, I do not believe cow's milk is that necesary for humans (not even small children) but, mainly because of cultural habits, some amount is always used around our house. On the average and in the form of cheese, yogurt, butter, cream, etc, the amount that our family of four consumes is around 1 liter (1 quart) per day. Do you think that a cow will be willing to share that amount with us ?. I am not at all interested in the meat, a little on the milk, but a lot in the s.it (as you put it) and in the company. Can you put some numbers in your appreciation of things, please. Kind regards friend. Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 11:33:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17451 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 11:33:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29661; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 11:23:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29569 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 11:22:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.136] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.136]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.11.13.11.10) with ESMTP id <0F8W0011ZIMGV4@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:18:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:24:24 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: horn clay In-reply-to: <36F3A0AE.938435CA@direct.ca> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 250 >Dear Hugh, >Unlike 500, horn clay really does not dissolve very well in water (even during >a one hour stirring time). So, I think you have to dissolve it first in a bit >of water (warm) and then add it to the barrell. that is my observation. >Regards Ferdinand > Dear Ferdinand: So far Greg, Hugh and yourself are the only persons on this list that, to my knowledge, have used horn clay. Can you please comment on the effects you appreciate by it's use and elucidate on the mechanics of it's action. If there are any other BD members with experience using horn clay, I would also enjoy and benefit from your experiences. Many thanks Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 12:40:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA18062 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:40:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06033; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:29:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheddar.direct.ca (cheddar.direct.ca [199.60.229.16]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05953 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:28:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0213.direct.ca ([204.244.83.29] helo=direct.ca) by cheddar.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #20) id 10OPaZ-0007Ds-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:31:12 -0800 Message-ID: <36F3D9DF.3468A1DE@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:24:47 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BD Discussion Group Bio-Dynamics Subject: Etheric Seeing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 251 The calamity of GE and the MONSANTO-NOVARTIS attacks on soil, plants and animal has to do with one important thing, I believe: the unwillingness or inability (or whatever) of human beings to fully engage in the art of etheric seeing. There will not be any materialistic science (X-raying, Chromatography, Christallisation, Kirlianic Photography, Vibrational Techniques, Infrared Photography etc. etc.) that can reveal what etheric seeing can reveal. Steiner's disciples are 'at fault' that this ability has not (could not) been develop. They shoot down anybody who indicates anything 'smaking' of etheric seeing. They attack vigorously with comments such as: '...this is atavistic...' '...Dr. Steiner has warned of it.....' '.....it is not objective......' '.....it is dangerous....' and so forth. How much more dangerous is X-raying, may I ask or the simple us of a Cellular phone (possibly causing brain cancer...)? Any new technique IS prone to cause 'problems' and may involve the user in 'highly dangerous' incidents (for example the first flying machines....) One has to develop a system (possibly subjective) and work with it for a while. During Deborah Byron's visit I did a 20 minute Barrell Compost Stirring (and showed her the etheric seeing technique). She will report later next week. During the stirring process, it became clear why Maria Thun asks for 20 minutes and why Ferdinand speaks of 6 minutes. I am sure that one can physically check my findings, too and get some confirmation. I am, however, of the opinion that Etheric Seeing gives us the possibility to CLEARLY warn (and give indications) of certain dangers that may arise if and when we do GE or whatever. Let Science follow it up afterwards with its very expensive and time consuming methods. In due course Science will realise that Etheric Seeing is far more cost efficient (and I repeat COST efficient, as nothing else will help) to detect challenges, problems and the like than using their ancient, destructive methods of trail by error. Regards Ferdinand -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 12:40:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA18070 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:40:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06088; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:29:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheddar.direct.ca (cheddar.direct.ca [199.60.229.16]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05970 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:28:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0213.direct.ca ([204.244.83.29] helo=direct.ca) by cheddar.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #20) id 10OPal-0007Ep-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:31:23 -0800 Message-ID: <36F3D9EF.5E3D6D24@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:25:03 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BD Discussion Group Bio-Dynamics Subject: Slipping onto the background for a while, saying good bye! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 252 Dear friends, Spring planting, seeding, even calving and intensive forestry work has started again. For that reason, I will disappear into the background for some months. If I should unsubsribe, please do not think that it has to do with any part of difficulty of BDNOW - it has to do with the outside work. Regards Ferdinand -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 13:10:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18361 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:10:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09018; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:59:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08811 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:57:44 -0500 (EST) From: HILAWRIGHT@aol.com Received: from HILAWRIGHT@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hFIOa03706 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:59:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <87546937.36f3e213@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:59:47 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: biodynamic viticulture Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 118 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 253 I'd like to make contact with anyone working in biodynamic viticulture. Does it matter whereabouts in the vineyard you bury your horn manure? Also, a winemaker in France once told me about the qualities of different kinds of animal manure - excitable nervous horse, earthy rustic pig, etc - which he was experimenting with. Has anyone had experience with this? Hilary From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 13:56:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18867 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:56:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13345; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:45:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from send204.yahoomail.com (send204.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.128]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13292 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:44:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990320184903.29325.rocketmail@send204.yahoomail.com> Received: from [206.205.40.10] by send204.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:49:03 PST Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:49:03 -0800 (PST) From: bruce ritchie Subject: Re: Spring Equinox To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 254 Parker (or whomever may know), In your equinox comments you've mentioned watercress (which i've heard is really full of nutrients). Watercress is Nasturtium Officianalis. Here's my query. Around here in Charlottesville va they have land cress or 'creesy greens' as the older black folks call it. Can you tell me what the difference is between the two either with the latin name, characteristics, or even (especially) the nutrients? Watercress here is around a dollar for 3 ounces, and travels some distance, landcress is grown locallly and 69 cents to a doollar a pound. What about the growning season/range of watercress? Anyone with specifics please chime in! Bruce Ritchie _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 14:16:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19139 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:16:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14951; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:06:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from rtfm.midcoast.com (root@dns.midcoast.com [206.26.226.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14804 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:04:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from jpt (liberty-c-018.midcoast.com [208.153.20.118]) by rtfm.midcoast.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA20224 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:07:57 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990320135211.007d9c90@midcoast.com> X-Sender: stgeorge@midcoast.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:52:11 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "John P. Thomas and Kathleen Barrett" Subject: Re: the price of freedom for all life In-Reply-To: References: <199931905446617421@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 255 Hugh, Guillermo, and others, Perhaps we can become aware together. Recently, I had a conversation with a friend who has been working with BD gardening for a year or two about social awareness. I gently tried to bring up the subject of "forces of darkness", which have a different agenda than "forces of light". Her response spoke to the fact that the light is in the dark and its all one. She wasn't ready to look at the fact that everything is not warm and wonderful -- there are spiritual forces, spiritual beings, and human beings who are intent on limiting the evolution of humanity. At one level of consideration, her statement is absolutely true, for example, -- the center and periphery are one in the same at the point of infinity -- however, there is much to be learned by studying the relationship between the infinitely inward at the center and the infinitely outward at the periphery. My goal is not to explain as much as it is to shine light upon that which wishes to stay in darkness and far from conscious sight. So here goes. First, let's contemplate the human force of will. Last winter my new partner Kathleen and I bought a farm in midcoast Maine, USA. The farm was established in 1813 by one of two brothers who dammed up the river near the farm and built a saw mill. The barn they built has beams that are 48 feet long and at their large end are 15x15 inches or larger. Some time around the turn of the last century they decided to move this 48x60 foot barn about a half of a mile or so. People did amazing things with horses, ropes, and will forces back then. How do our will forces compare to the forces people had 100 years ago? How does our physical strength compare? If we were transported back 185 years would we have the forces to do what these men and women did? A few months ago I was standing in line at a Chinese restaurant weighting to be seated and over heard a conversation between a four year old boy and a woman (probably his Aunt) who he had not seen for a long time. She asked him about his schooling, his allergies, health, etc. She concluded their conversation by saying "we are all very sick". I don't think she knew how true her words were. The fact is that humanity has been deeply weakened in many ways. Health and strength are no longer the norm, but are the rare exception. Why is this? What are we not seeing? >From my 20+ years Study of Anthroposophy I have read much about human evolution and the gift of freedom which is being given to human beings. I have also read that there are spiritual beings who wish to take this freedom from humanity so that they might supplant the forces of light. I have felt the cold touch of these beings in my heart and have seen people give up their freedom and begin to serve the darkness. Why is it so hard to stay with the light? My simplistic answer is that we individually lack the forces within ourselves to transform social life. Why is this? Is this just the way it is? Is there a plan which is working to keep humanity weak? I believe there are several secret brotherhoods who serve the forces of darkness. They want to keep us weak so that we will be unable to accept the gift of freedom which is being offered to humanity. How do they keep us weak? POOR NUTRITION! To begin with, processed foods containing white flour, white sugar, hydrogenated vegetable oils take more forces from us than they give. These foods and their processed cousins impair our thinking. Alcohol, drugs, caffeine, tobacco, sugar, and any other addictive substances (or processes) impair our capacity to be present with life. They numb our heart forces. They prevent us from being truly social, even though we are told these addictive substances make us "more social". Who is telling us that alcohol makes us social? POISONS? How are the forces of the cosmos and Earth being distorted by electromagnetic fields, radio and micro wave transmissions? Who had the idea that we should totally enclose the Earth in a microwave field generated by several hundred sat alights? What is this doing to our will forces? What is this doing to the life forces in our plants and animals? What is this doing to our capacity to accurately perceive spiritual forces? Lastly, we need to consider the effects of allopathic prescription drugs, vaccinations, mercury amalgam, and root canals. Each of these "treatments" take more of our health than they give to us. How does their removal of "symptoms" prevent us from being heled through the light and life of vibrational medicine. > > Why doesn't someone comment on my post about the potential of genetic modification for >planetary enslavement? Who is doing the GMO stuff? Corporations. What is a corporation? > Oh yes, I almost forgot, GMOs. If food bring us forces from the cosmos when we eat it, then the forces that come to us through GMOs must be examined closely. What does the forces and intention for "roundup ready" do for us when they are attracted to us during digestion? Is this going to give life to us or take life from us? If it gives life to us in the same way that it saves the life of soy beans when exposed to Roundup, then what is the quality of that life? Is this a new type of slavery? Does the powerful being of "Roundup Ready" seek to be our master or our servant? Does it seek to control our thinking, feeling, or willing? > >Who is aware of this kind of thing? Anybody? > The secret brotherhoods are fully aware. Simply do research on the origin of white sugar in the diet and mercury as "medicine". These seemingly unrelated poison came from the same source at the same time in history. The secret brotherhoods are not new, only their tactics are new. Talk of conspiracy causes strong reactions in people. Some react with absolute denial, disbelief, and anger. For others it is depression, overwhelming fear, and resignation. For still others (myself included) it is simply a fact of living in the age of Mi-cha-el. These facts from the dark side of events related to human evolution can summon up forces within us. Heartfelt courage can be one of the spiritual gifts of this age. For me, the spiritual perspective of GMOs is that they offer us another opportunity to connect with one another and to realize that social transformation occurs through social interdependent. Its another opportunity to answer the call of Mi-cha-el. Will we wake up to the call of the spiritual world or just turn on the TV and let its anti-conscious vibrations put us to sleep? In 1995 I happily worked as a freelance technical writer. I wrote books about computer software, was heavily involved with the Anthroposophical Society, The Christian Community, and numerous civic organizations. My life was turned up side down when my wife was diagnosed with terminal cancer. She died in 1996. I sold our home in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, along with its fancy contents, and began to look for the future that was trying to speak to my heart. So, here I am, a 43 year old blind man, living on a farm which is trying to become biodynamic. Am I crazy? Foolish? Arrogant? The answer is probably "yes" to each of these questions. The more important question, for me, however, is "am I listening to the voice within myself which is asking me to leave the comfort zone and to make a commitment to bring healing to the Earth and to humanity. A day does not go by when I don't question this commitment, and a day does not go by when I do not see the healing force that pores into my life and the life of this farm. It is better to fail at living in the light of truth, than to succeed at dwelling in the darkness of complacency. Thanks John St. George Farm Freedom, Maine, USA At 02:25 AM 3/20/99 -0400, you wrote: >> >>Hi Hugh: >> >>You are an author, can I suggest you write a book or a few articles on the >>subject and putting forward the issues that most be taking to the border >>of our thoughts in order to shift to a new social-economic-political order >>paradigm. (probably in the light of agriculture). . . . SNIP >>Guillermo Romero I. > >Dear Guillermo, > . . . SNIP >Why doesn't someone comment on my post about the potential of genetic >modification for planetary enslavement? Seems to me this is the kind of >issue that argues that it is necessary to become politically aware and >active. Who is doing the GMO stuff? Corporations. What is a corporation? >What are the laws like that corporations are able to get away with so much >as they do? Who is aware of this kind of thing? Anybody? Well, it's time to >become aware. > >Best, > >Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 14:25:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19376 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:25:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15769; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:15:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15659 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:13:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.5]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:17:59 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:16:35 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Message-ID: <12F51C893EAFEFD58525673A006777E1.006995658525673A@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 256 << Andrew wrote: "...what does all this GMO stuff mean spiritually? ... what does this biotechnology really mean for the long-term soul and spiritual well-being of humanity?...(snip) I suspect it has also much to do with discovering the means by which to create life force... (and snip) By working with spiritual, rather than just material forces and substances? Can we begin to discuss this part of biodyanmics?">> Dear Friends on Bd-Now, In all this discussion of Monsanto and even of building up the soils, there has been comparatively little talk of the spiritual componant of this work that is biodynamics. I discovered, (as many of you know) biodynamics quite by accident by being a member of a bd csa. For many years, I felt blessed and simply delighted in the wondrous food that I received each week that was so full of life force. It was only many years later that I discovered that my food was produced through a "spiritual" system of agriculture and started reading Steiner. It was actually the discovery of this list a couple of years ago, that brought me to a fuller (though woefully incomplete) understanding of just how blessed I was to be able to eat food like this each year. Although I have not eaten much in the way of processed food over the last twenty years, I do however, being a city dweller quite often eat at restaurants. Since learning more and more about GE foods, Monsanto's (yeah, Chris, for sure) Darth Vader politics, I find it increasingly difficult to even justify the occasional meal out, unless I go to one of the very few really consciously politicized vegan restaurants in town. The really scary part, is that I am an educated consumer. For me the most frightening aspect of GE is that most of the public is uninformed, unable to really get informed unless they have a vested interest in food already. Especially in cities, where people are on a track (whether through conscious choice or unconscious circumstance) whereby they simply do not make the time to inform themselves about these very important issues. I find that most people who do think about food that I know, think about cutting fat out of the diet, or eating less meat, but this does not stop them in any way from eating food that is totally devoid of life force, not to mention still being on a processed food diet. So, here's what I'm trying to say. If even in a forum such as this, where indeed there has been much talk over the years of a spiritual nature but that 'spiritual sense' is still NOT the main kind of intelligence being applied to growing food, how can we expect a mass population, who perhaps is NOT inclined to any spiritual practice, to have any kind of spiritual take on the mad technologists rush to claim the secret powers of nature as their own? As for this community, I very much enjoyed the dialogue on soil, but perhaps missed the talk of Devas, nature spirits, intuitive choices for soil building, and heard instead much talk of science's way of measurement or chemical construction. I would love to hear more from this community specifically about their individual spiritual 'techniques' that they use on their farms, as Ferdinand describes in his posts about etheric seeing. When I gave the example of the church usurping the energy of healers and community gardens it was in part to illustrate that the idea of those in power, trying to "discover the life force" has been around for a long time; the people who have traditionally been more in touch with that energy and the means to work WITH it, have for centuries suffered annihilation and destruction at the hands of those in power for their knowledge...Look at indigenous Indian populations, not just witches. So it was a comment about the historical patterning of those with political power who really have no spiritual power, trying to wipe out any reminder of their inablility to "create life". I am not anti religion, anti-science, nor anti technology, I think those can all be useful tools when used properly. But I tend to agree, that the best hope for our future is in something like the broadscale education of our "unseen" senses, our intuitive vision and the inspiration of love. If more people could eat more nutritious food, and open up their hearts (which comes first?) then perhaps our "mass" culture could shift from one of "mass destruction" to one of "mass communion". Best Regards and a Blessed & Happy Spring to you all, Jane Sherry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 15:09:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA20050 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:09:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19394; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:57:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19111 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:54:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp7.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.107]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA22894 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:54:41 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <003801be730b$5c6c79c0$6b4b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie M." To: Subject: Re: Milk....... Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:53:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 257 Dearest Ferdy, As one of your biggest fans, (which you know) I have always placed your insights & instructions in the "best & most useful" file, both practical & otherwise. I have learned a great deal from you. I am trying to understand this post...are the cows & herd you observed from a specific place or farm near you? I would suggest, most humbly, that although I do not possess your gift of etheric sight, that finding the milk from a cow or farm that is managed with love (and of course BD or at least organic feeds & forages) is your best defense against ingesting abnormal, unnatural or blackened energy from milk or meat products. When you give up on the cows, Ferdy, quit drinking milk, you leave them to the factories, the Monsantos of the world who will buy up the land of small farms, place the cattle in confinement, cut their tails, leave them on concrete their remaining days, to bear their babies in gutters, etc. But if you perhaps, seek the improvement of the current conditions, not by boycotting all milk & meat, but instead speak by supporting family farms who produce milk humanely & have only enough cows to call each by name, and rub their spines, & scratch their ears, well, you have done a far better thing. They are part of us, our planet, and they have to be somewhere - let's keep them with us. Got milk? Julie PS...I'd skip the Soya Milk if I were you...Round up Ready beans are EVERYWHERE!!! -----Original Message----- From: Ferdinand Vondruska To: BD Discussion Group Bio-Dynamics Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 9:14 AM Subject: Milk....... > >Dear friends, >When slaughtering cows, we had to kill a few from a dairy herd. What a >shock. I, now, call their milk PUSS MILK. You should have seed the >udders. Totally deformed. Some hollow. Inflamed. Possibly Antibiotically >treated. How can one drink such s.it? I felt sorry for the cow (tears) >and disgusted. Never again 'regular' milk on my table. Forget it. Drink >Rice Milk, Soya Milk, Almond Milk. As indicated in an earlier post. The >threshold of milk production (for a cow) was passed around 1980 when the >weight (of milk) had reached a volume that stripped the cow of most of >its etheric life body. I have not studied the latest developments, >however, with hormones and other input production may be pushed even >higher and the cow, then, will collapse in full (if she has not already >done so). > >>From an etheric point of observation the following: It appeared to me as >if the cow (dairy herd cow) was surrounded by a dark, if not black, >ring. What appears to be (somewhat) colorful circles that surround >otherwise (somewhat) healthy cows, nothing of the same could be seen >around the dairy herd cow. As a matter of fact said cow(s) - a number >were killed - appeared to be blown up like a balloon (hollow or void of >the life color patterns which other cows display). The wild, cancerogene >mass of this cow (sorry for such a comparison, however similar colors >and pictures also appear in such context) this mass appeared to be >inhabited by the strangest, un-cow-like forms and 'colors' I have ever >seen. Keep your hands off the meat and milk. Regards Ferdinand >-- > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > >C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest >into an >understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar >World Forest >Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 16:22:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA20832 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:22:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA27548; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:10:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27394 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:10:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0211.direct.ca ([204.244.83.27] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10OT30-0002Nj-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:12:47 -0800 Message-ID: <36F40D8B.DF2E30B3@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:05:15 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: horn clay References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 258 Dear Guillermo, The year has to unfold first before I can make any comments. I'll come back to this later. I asked Greg HOW to store Horn Clay to which I never got an answer. I kept it in my storage room IN the horn. We shall see. Regards Ferdinand Guillermo Romero wrote: > >Dear Hugh, > >Unlike 500, horn clay really does not dissolve very well in water (even during > >a one hour stirring time). So, I think you have to dissolve it first in a bit > >of water (warm) and then add it to the barrell. that is my observation. > >Regards Ferdinand > > > > Dear Ferdinand: > > So far Greg, Hugh and yourself are the only persons on this list that, to my knowledge, have used horn clay. Can you please comment on the effects you appreciate by it's use and elucidate on the mechanics of it's action. > > If there are any other BD members with experience using horn clay, I would also enjoy and benefit from your experiences. > > Many thanks > > Guillermo Romero I. > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 16:22:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA20841 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:22:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA27471; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:10:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27165 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:08:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0211.direct.ca ([204.244.83.27] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10OT1I-0002HJ-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:11:00 -0800 Message-ID: <36F40D21.1DBD4366@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:03:29 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Milk....... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 259 Dear Guillermo, Guillermo Romero wrote: > >Dear friends, > >When slaughtering cows, we had to kill a few from a dairy herd. What a > >shock. I, now, call their milk PUSS MILK. You should have seed the > >udders. Totally deformed. Some hollow. Inflamed. Possibly Antibiotically > >treated. How can one drink such s.it? I felt sorry for the cow (tears) > >and disgusted. Never again 'regular' milk on my table. Forget it. Drink > >Rice Milk, Soya Milk, Almond Milk. As indicated in an earlier post. The > >threshold of milk production (for a cow) was passed around 1980 when the > >weight (of milk) had reached a volume that stripped the cow of most of > >its etheric life body. I have not studied the latest developments, > >however, with hormones and other input production may be pushed even > >higher and the cow, then, will collapse in full (if she has not already > >done so). > > > >>From an etheric point of observation the following: It appeared to me as > >if the cow (dairy herd cow) was surrounded by a dark, if not black, > >ring. What appears to be (somewhat) colorful circles that surround > >otherwise (somewhat) healthy cows, nothing of the same could be seen > >around the dairy herd cow. As a matter of fact said cow(s) - a number > >were killed - appeared to be blown up like a balloon (hollow or void of > >the life color patterns which other cows display). The wild, cancerogene > >mass of this cow (sorry for such a comparison, however similar colors > >and pictures also appear in such context) this mass appeared to be > >inhabited by the strangest, un-cow-like forms and 'colors' I have ever > >seen. Keep your hands off the meat and milk. Regards Ferdinand > > Hi Ferdinand: > > I do not know if I understood your post correctly or if I am twisting things around for my own sake, let me ask. > > So what you are saying is, that a cow is willing to share some of it's milk with us humans (with no ill effects either to her or it's calfs), but we have abused the benefits manipulating things to reach whatever milk output threeshold traspased around 1980. There is a fine balance between stressing a cow to the point where her halth is suffering (too high a production) and a calf that is to too weak to survive OR where she can give to us (milk) AND a healthy calf. Each breed has a somewhat different upper limit. Last year I took a course (in Finland) and if my memory serves me right, the 4,000 liter level was just about the right amount of milk for a Brown Swiss. That level (quantity) has been pushed to a multiple thereof where the cow basically is ripped to pieces. Most calves are too weak and will not survive for long if the mother cow has to produce 8 or 12 or more thousand liters of milk. . > Can you say something about the "healthy" level of milk that a cow would be able to share, without putting the calf on supplemental or substitute feedings, and without stealing her etheric wellbeing. I do not believe that a calf should be put on milk substitute. At present, we have a calf (Thomasina) - 4 months old - eating hay and a bit of grain. She was with her Mama until now and we will give her an additional 8 weeks. She is strong, alert, thik fur coat and is running with the crowd. Galloway/Hereford X. This calf will be an outstanding milker although the breed, as such, is not known for milk - rather for meat. However, she will have an extremely good 'book' i.e. the part in which the feed is being ground up. Her body measurements are close to the golden mean and I am as proud of this calf as can be. Likely the best we had so far. I'd say that an ounce of milk from her per day would equal one quart or more of those Friesen/Canadian monster cows giving 10 - 12,000 liters p.a. (about 3.300 gal/pa) > I am a vegan and I do not like keeping large animals for my own use, but in order to achieve the whole farm organism, I do see the need to have some animals and small cows will be my prefered choice. Yes, that is ideal and if you can keep a cow in your 'back yard' try it. I am saying 'back yard' - of course, the cow needs some land and space to walk. But it is a worthy experience for both human being(s) and animal. Cows and gazelles are very closely related, never forget that. Can you imagine a gazelle with an overwhelming udder? > >From a nutritional point of view, I do not believe cow's milk is that necesary for humans (not even small children) but, mainly because of cultural habits, some amount is always used around our house. On the average and in the form of cheese, yogurt, butter, cream, etc, the amount that our family of four consumes is around 1 liter (1 quart) per day. Do you think that a cow will be willing to share that amount with us ?. Depending on the breed of your cow, that should be no problem. You will likely get much more than one liter for home consumption, much more. Under normal circumstances and without force feeding, just a little bit of grain in the winter, we easily got 4,000 ltr p/a. This was the Finnish thresshold. Of course, at today's milk price, you could NOT make a living. The quantity of milk you get depends on how good your hay is and a number of other factors. But, remember, there will be a time when the production is going down (after about 15 months) and you may be lucky to get 5 - 6 ltrs per day. Then comes the moment when you dry her up. Goat keepers would claim that it is easier to keep a goat if the amount of milk has gone down that far. > I am not at all interested in the meat, a little on the milk, but a lot in the s.it (as you put it) and in the company. > > Can you put some numbers in your appreciation of things, please. > > Kind regards friend. > > Guillermo Romero I. > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Guillermo, a good person to ask here is Juli Marquart - hello Juli, what do your numbers say? Regards Ferdinand -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 16:28:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA20925 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:28:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28185; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:16:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheddar.direct.ca (cheddar.direct.ca [199.60.229.16]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28049 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:15:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0211.direct.ca ([204.244.83.27] helo=direct.ca) by cheddar.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #20) id 10OT8L-00014S-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:18:17 -0800 Message-ID: <36F40EEA.4875A7D8@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:11:06 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Milk....... References: <003801be730b$5c6c79c0$6b4b2e9c@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 260 Dear Julie! My emotions got the better part of me after what I have seen. Sorry. Cows the way you keep them, are cows from which I'd drink milk any time and right form the udder. Yes, boycotting milk is NOT the answer. The answer for all the food we consume is: know where it does come from. Sorry, if I caused undue problems. Love Ferdinand "Julie M." wrote: > Dearest Ferdy, > > As one of your biggest fans, (which you know) I have always placed your > insights & instructions in the "best & most useful" file, both practical & > otherwise. I have learned a great deal from you. > > I am trying to understand this post...are the cows & herd you observed from > a specific place or farm near you? I would suggest, most humbly, that > although I do not possess your gift of etheric sight, that finding the milk > from a cow or farm that is managed with love (and of course BD or at least > organic feeds & forages) is your best defense against ingesting abnormal, > unnatural or blackened energy from milk or meat products. > > When you give up on the cows, Ferdy, quit drinking milk, you leave them to > the factories, the Monsantos of the world who will buy up the land of small > farms, place the cattle in confinement, cut their tails, leave them on > concrete their remaining days, to bear their babies in gutters, etc. But if > you perhaps, seek the improvement of the current conditions, not by > boycotting all milk & meat, but instead speak by supporting family farms who > produce milk humanely & have only enough cows to call each by name, and rub > their spines, & scratch their ears, well, you have done a far better thing. > They are part of us, our planet, and they have to be somewhere - let's keep > them with us. > > Got milk? > > Julie > > PS...I'd skip the Soya Milk if I were you...Round up Ready beans are > EVERYWHERE!!! > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ferdinand Vondruska > To: BD Discussion Group Bio-Dynamics > Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 9:14 AM > Subject: Milk....... > > > > >Dear friends, > >When slaughtering cows, we had to kill a few from a dairy herd. What a > >shock. I, now, call their milk PUSS MILK. You should have seed the > >udders. Totally deformed. Some hollow. Inflamed. Possibly Antibiotically > >treated. How can one drink such s.it? I felt sorry for the cow (tears) > >and disgusted. Never again 'regular' milk on my table. Forget it. Drink > >Rice Milk, Soya Milk, Almond Milk. As indicated in an earlier post. The > >threshold of milk production (for a cow) was passed around 1980 when the > >weight (of milk) had reached a volume that stripped the cow of most of > >its etheric life body. I have not studied the latest developments, > >however, with hormones and other input production may be pushed even > >higher and the cow, then, will collapse in full (if she has not already > >done so). > > > >>From an etheric point of observation the following: It appeared to me as > >if the cow (dairy herd cow) was surrounded by a dark, if not black, > >ring. What appears to be (somewhat) colorful circles that surround > >otherwise (somewhat) healthy cows, nothing of the same could be seen > >around the dairy herd cow. As a matter of fact said cow(s) - a number > >were killed - appeared to be blown up like a balloon (hollow or void of > >the life color patterns which other cows display). The wild, cancerogene > >mass of this cow (sorry for such a comparison, however similar colors > >and pictures also appear in such context) this mass appeared to be > >inhabited by the strangest, un-cow-like forms and 'colors' I have ever > >seen. Keep your hands off the meat and milk. Regards Ferdinand > >-- > > > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > > >C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest > >into an > >understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar > >World Forest > >Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 > > > > -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 21:06:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA23659 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:06:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA25836; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:54:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA25613 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:52:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d160.infoserve.net [199.175.157.160]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA20206 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 17:57:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002101be733d$e7b5c040$a09dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: bee weekend with B. Hauk Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 17:54:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01BE72FA.C52CF180" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 261 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BE72FA.C52CF180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, especially to the bdnower from Courtenay. A little while ago, there was an announcement about Hauk coming to the = Island. Could you repost it please. Many thanks, Michael ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BE72FA.C52CF180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello, especially to the bdnower = from=20 Courtenay.
  A little while ago, there was = an=20 announcement about Hauk coming to the Island. Could you repost it = please. Many=20 thanks, Michael
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BE72FA.C52CF180-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 22:07:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA24115 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:07:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA01117; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:54:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from anat.ncds.net (anat.ncds.net [207.250.242.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA00977 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:53:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from pavilion (p00-93.ffxp.ncds.net [207.250.242.168]) by anat.ncds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7-sp) with SMTP id UAA29283 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:56:51 -0600 Message-ID: <007f01be7357$680d3e80$a8f2facf@pavilion> From: "parker" To: Subject: Re: Spring Equinox Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:56:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 262 Bruce- sorry I can't help you with the nutrients, but my intuition tells me that the watercress which appears in the spring and fall here, near springs where water is moving fast enough but not too fast, is higher in nutrients than the land cress (garden cress?). I have eaten plenty of both and realize a real kick from the springfed cress. We like eating a spring salad of watercress, chick weed, nettle, and violets. This really packs the good vibe power! Parker -----Original Message----- From: bruce ritchie To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 10:49 AM Subject: Re: Spring Equinox > > > > >Parker (or whomever may know), > In your equinox comments you've mentioned watercress (which i've >heard is really full of nutrients). Watercress is Nasturtium >Officianalis. > Here's my query. Around here in Charlottesville va they have >land cress or 'creesy greens' as the older black folks call it. Can >you tell me what the difference is between the two either with the >latin name, characteristics, or even (especially) the nutrients? >Watercress here is around a dollar for 3 ounces, and travels some >distance, landcress is grown locallly and 69 cents to a doollar a >pound. What about the growning season/range of watercress? Anyone with >specifics please chime in! Bruce Ritchie >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 22:53:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA24674 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:53:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA05129; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:40:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheddar.direct.ca (cheddar.direct.ca [199.60.229.16]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA04781 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:36:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0215.direct.ca ([204.244.83.31] helo=direct.ca) by cheddar.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #20) id 10OZ4z-0007Zh-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:39:13 -0800 Message-ID: <36F46800.48A7835B@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:31:12 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Horn clay / Clay Soil References: <36F2818E.32EA@cwcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 263 Dear Tony, As many a Sussex (England) fellow may be able to tell you, clay has the tendency to make people a bit melancholic. I spent six years on clay soil and really felt its influence. Regards Ferdinand Tony Nelson-Smith wrote: > Dear Hugh and other wise folks - I have heavy clay about 1-2 feet down, > I don't know how deep (have never found the energy to dig far enough > down). So far, my efforts have all been to open it up by digging in > compost, leaf mould, fibrous pond dredgings etc. How do my needs to > energise this clay compare with yours in open sandy soil? Tony N-S. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 23:15:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA24872 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:15:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA06525; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:58:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06358 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:56:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0215.direct.ca ([204.244.83.31] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10OZNw-0001M6-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:58:49 -0800 Message-ID: <36F46C80.61934746@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:50:24 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Milk....... and a few more thoughts! References: <003801be730b$5c6c79c0$6b4b2e9c@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 264 Dear Julie, I had to come back to your post once more in order to answer a few of your questions in more detail. Let me do so by inserting them into your post further down: "Julie M." wrote: > Dearest Ferdy, > > As one of your biggest fans, (which you know) I have always placed your > insights & instructions in the "best & most useful" file, both practical & > otherwise. I have learned a great deal from you. I thank you ever so much! > I am trying to understand this post...are the cows & herd you observed from > a specific place or farm near you? They were from a high production unit with over 100 milking cows - and they always slaughter the cows that do not produce any longer to fill their quota. > I would suggest, most humbly, that > although I do not possess your gift of etheric sight, that finding the milk > from a cow or farm that is managed with love (and of course BD or at least > organic feeds & forages) is your best defense against ingesting abnormal, > unnatural or blackened energy from milk or meat products. Yes, Julie! High(er) production unit that are BD do, according to my observations, do not have the same negative aura, although we must be extremely careful not to fall into the same quantity gap with the BD method (if at all possible). However, I know some Ontario farms that have been trying to fight the milk marketing board - to no avail and have to sell their milk through regular channels. It is awful - a real problem! In BC, an egg 'producer' has won a landmark battle against the egg marketing board. He could prove (in court) that his hens were laying a different product (natural grain, fresh grass, free run etc.) than the hens in the 'high rise'. Perhaps there is a chance for the BD milk, too. > When you give up on the cows, Ferdy, quit drinking milk, you leave them to > the factories, the Monsantos of the world who will buy up the land of small > farms, place the cattle in confinement, cut their tails, leave them on > concrete their remaining days, to bear their babies in gutters, etc. Yes, that is true. We, too, are buying (if and when needed) the extra BD milk form (imagine) Quebec that has travelled 3,000 miles. Yes, it costs much more, however, we do two things: we support the farmer and also the life of the cow(s). I know that we have to pay double of the regular milk prize, however, we simply drink half. Dr Steiner, at one point in a lecture, indicated that milk (cow I think) ought to be consumed by the younger people and honey by the older. > But if > you perhaps, seek the improvement of the current conditions, not by > boycotting all milk & meat, but instead speak by supporting family farms who > produce milk humanely & have only enough cows to call each by name, and rub > their spines, & scratch their ears, well, you have done a far better thing. Yes, once more! And I wish to repeat what I said in an earlier post: it must become a habit to find out where exactly our food is coming from and how it was produced. Isn't it strange that we make such a fuss about gasoline (the engine may seize...) yet, we put almost anything into hour heads...! > > They are part of us, our planet, and they have to be somewhere - let's keep > them with us. > > Got milk? > > Julie > > PS...I'd skip the Soya Milk if I were you...Round up Ready beans are > EVERYWHERE!!! I understand that this has become a real problem. I will keep that in mind. > With kindest regards Ferdinand > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ferdinand Vondruska > To: BD Discussion Group Bio-Dynamics > Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 9:14 AM > Subject: Milk....... > > > > >Dear friends, > >When slaughtering cows, we had to kill a few from a dairy herd. What a > >shock. I, now, call their milk PUSS MILK. You should have seed the > >udders. Totally deformed. Some hollow. Inflamed. Possibly Antibiotically > >treated. How can one drink such s.it? I felt sorry for the cow (tears) > >and disgusted. Never again 'regular' milk on my table. Forget it. Drink > >Rice Milk, Soya Milk, Almond Milk. As indicated in an earlier post. The > >threshold of milk production (for a cow) was passed around 1980 when the > >weight (of milk) had reached a volume that stripped the cow of most of > >its etheric life body. I have not studied the latest developments, > >however, with hormones and other input production may be pushed even > >higher and the cow, then, will collapse in full (if she has not already > >done so). > > > >>From an etheric point of observation the following: It appeared to me as > >if the cow (dairy herd cow) was surrounded by a dark, if not black, > >ring. What appears to be (somewhat) colorful circles that surround > >otherwise (somewhat) healthy cows, nothing of the same could be seen > >around the dairy herd cow. As a matter of fact said cow(s) - a number > >were killed - appeared to be blown up like a balloon (hollow or void of > >the life color patterns which other cows display). The wild, cancerogene > >mass of this cow (sorry for such a comparison, however similar colors > >and pictures also appear in such context) this mass appeared to be > >inhabited by the strangest, un-cow-like forms and 'colors' I have ever > >seen. Keep your hands off the meat and milk. Regards Ferdinand > >-- > > > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > > >C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest > >into an > >understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar > >World Forest > >Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 > > > > -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 23:22:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA24925 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:22:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA07613; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:10:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA07205 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:07:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d140.infoserve.net [199.175.157.140]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA24923 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:12:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002601be7350$bb8cd720$8c9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Horn clay / Clay Soil Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:09:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 265 Ferdy, most interesting! As you know, Kahumana's soil is heavy in the volcanic clay base. Did you find an underlining melancholy with the inhabitant of Kahumana in your experience? Michael -----Original Message----- From: Ferdinand Vondruska To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 7:45 PM Subject: Re: Horn clay / Clay Soil >Dear Tony, >As many a Sussex (England) fellow may be able to tell you, clay has the >tendency to make people a bit melancholic. I spent six years on clay soil >and really felt its influence. Regards Ferdinand > >Tony Nelson-Smith wrote: > >> Dear Hugh and other wise folks - I have heavy clay about 1-2 feet down, >> I don't know how deep (have never found the energy to dig far enough >> down). So far, my efforts have all been to open it up by digging in >> compost, leaf mould, fibrous pond dredgings etc. How do my needs to >> energise this clay compare with yours in open sandy soil? Tony N-S. > >-- > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > >C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest >into an >understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar >World Forest >Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 23:36:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA25110 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08399; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:16:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08314 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:15:57 -0500 (EST) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hFWYa17140 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:17:59 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <9c3609ce.36f472f7@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:17:59 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: OFF: for Jane and other misc items Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 266 Dear neighbor in NY, I shouldn't muse in snatches. So part of the rest of the muse sort of went...we are all so aware that we are at a pretty intense crossroads, a cross that is already shaking us up. The wonderful thing about BDNOW is that we have the opportunity to meet and share ideas, so that no matter where we find ourselves after no matter how many crossings we can remain together in the common vision we are trying to form. However, my throwing out capacity is as great as my muse is short. Whoever has read up to here: I need help again with another post. I can't believe I threw it out. I have a letter from a woman worried about orthodonture for her young child. Can ANYONE help me retrieve the post about the child that was given curative eurythmy for crooked teeth? If not, I'll have to jump into the archives which fills me with dread. And, if you're STILL reading, could you please let me have times and dates of any significant events like BD talks, workshops, openings or whatever taking place in June, July, August. I will put them in the Calendar of Events of this upcoming LILIPOH. Thank you for your patience. Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 20 23:40:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA25128 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:40:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09470; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:28:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09356 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:27:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0215.direct.ca ([204.244.83.31] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10OZsD-00032i-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:30:06 -0800 Message-ID: <36F473D1.64ED187B@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:21:37 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BD Discussion Group Bio-Dynamics Subject: Corporations and a call by Hugh Lovel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 267 Dear Hugh, If I had time to sit at my keyboard and hack away, I'd take U up on this one. Corporations. What an incredible change has taken place in the past years. About ten to fifteen years ago corporations and companies have shifted from a responsible management style (taking employees and the environment into consideration) to ROI (return on investment) - this on behalf of the so called shareholder. Whatever is done these days is done under the cover of: on behalf of the shareholder (which could include anybody on this BDNOW list who owns shares of any company or a bank, etc, etc.) I remember when someone invented that new catch phrase (we must do it for the shareholder). With this the responsibility slipped into the hands of an unknown, hidden entity which nobody knows or has met. From now on forward you could do anything, nay, had to do anything on behalf and for the shareholder (as long as you made a lot of money, and fast!). Some years ago I was involved in our family company. Employees and the world's environment etc. were key phrases. And then, my father died. A new bunch of people took over. I left. It became too gruesome. Immediately, the new shareholders demanded that they get more for their money - twice as much as, otherwise, they would be forced to withdraw their investment. Suffice it to say that the old spirit dyed quickly. And in the same way, hundreds and thousands of old family-run companies are being taken over by this >unknown shareholder< - subsequently split up, disected, parts sold off Whereas in the past, the owner could not easily disregard the wishes, ideas and suggestions of the people with whom he/she had started out with, the anonimous shareholder wants cash on the barrel head. In my corporation time I have watched a dozen or more fine family run enterprises slip into the hands of 'shareholders' and the bedazzling anonimous stock market - running up to the10,000 level - Dow Jones.....! Yes, profitability went sky high, yet, the companies have become a cancer to society. Before I close a small addendum: A few days ago I went to the feed dealer. A year ago he had taken on the recycling of bottles and cans (law in BC). There were hardly any feed bags left in his warehouse. Asked where the feed stuff was he said that he will give it up. No money in it.......... Tough world. Regards Ferdinand Regards Ferdinand Why doesn't someone comment on my post about the potential of genetic modification for planetary enslavement? Seems to me this is the kind of issue that argues that it is necessary to become politically aware and active. Who is doing the GMO stuff? Corporations. What is a corporation? What are the laws like that corporations are able to get away with so much as they do? Who is aware of this kind of thing? Anybody? Well, it's time to become aware. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 00:47:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA26023 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:47:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA14372; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:35:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA14114 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:33:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0215.direct.ca ([204.244.83.31] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10Oatv-0006Ts-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:35:55 -0800 Message-ID: <36F48334.A9C2A7AF@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:27:16 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives & a talk with wheat References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 268 Dear Andrew, May I suggest one practical thing: In order that we may find a difference ( I mean the etheric manifestation[s]) between a naturally pollienated seed (of, say, a certain wheat) and a GMO wheat of the same kind, may I suggest that those who have a balcony garden or a small lot or an inside yard etc. obtain such seeds (the natural and the GMO). Now, let them grow beside each other and watch - daily. Draw them! Describe them! Clay model their manifestations! Listen to them! Write poetry of/about them! Meditate and look at them and report back to us. May I add this. My wife, while studying at Emerson College a few years back bought herself a few roses and (what an ingenious idea) started a discussion with them. Not only did the roses reveal themselves (in pictures she painted and many pages of poetic material) but the rose told her who she was and is. I urged her to publish it: MY DISCUSSIN WITH A ROSE. Please, will anybody engage in a discussion with a GMO plant!!!!????? Regards Ferdinand Hugh Lovel wrote: > Andrew writes: > > >Friends, > > > >I started this thread with the hope that folks would contribute to the > >discussion around the notion, that somehow there must be a spiritual lesson > >in the GMO story - AND - hopefully something positive to set our energy > >into. I suggested that the research and development into genetics and > >biotech of various kinds, was mainly about getting a handle on the life > >processes (or life forces; speak: the etheric), rather than just on > >manipulating a specific plant's gene pool or making lots of money through > >genetic copyrights, patents and other forms of monopolies. I was hoping for > >some reflective feedback - and still am. > > > >My hope was further, that we might look together at the potential > >implications of our biodynamic work as a counterbalance (specifically around > >developing insight into life forces) to the GMO work being done. > >Specifically, what kinds of work are you all doing around studying, > >experiencing, working with the etheric forces? How is it that these > >corporations and government agencies, universities and private companies are > >spending these huge amounts of money on discovering how to plants > >with materialistic means only? Are we able to develop new plants, healthier > >plants, new varieties, etc. through other means? By working with spiritual, > >rather than just material forces and substances? Can we begin to discuss > >this part of biodyanmics? > > > >Curious, > >Andrew > > Here's one spiritual lesson that slaps me in the face. > > The mind involuntarily rejects information that is contrary to its > assumptions. One of the most telling assumptions pervading our world today > is that the winning strategies are uniformity and competition. We see it in > the world of sports with teams all dressed in uniforms competing. We see it > in our schools with all our standardized testing, uniform curricula and > competition for top scores. We see it in the military, in the job place, in > the supermarket and shopping mall, you name it. > > Yet, if we look at a fertile natural ecology we would see, could we only > set this assumption aside, that the winning strategy is diversity and > cooperation. We would see it in sports if we played chess with the masters, > or in education in a Waldorf school, etc. One of the key things that makes > America as successful as it is (if not good, at least better than most) is > we have such a diverse population and more often than not we cooperate > (though nowhere near as well as they cooperate in Japan). > > It should be easy to see that almost all plant breeding (not Alan > Kapuler's) is done with an eye to this pan cultural assumption that the > winning strategies are uniformity and competition. F1 hybrids were a big > step in this direction of uniformity and competition, and surely this was a > winning strategy for a number of companies and their investors, though a > losing strategy for most of us. GMOs, however, really is a million rocket > salute to the twin Gods of uniformity and competition. As such it will > really land us in quicksand and that will be a teriffic spiritual lesson. > > As for whether we are able to develop new plants, healthier plants, new > varieties, etc. through other means? Surely! Many folks seem to forget, > perhaps some WANT to forget, that in 1987 Barbara McClintock won the Nobel > prize in genetics for proving that corn mutated in every generation. "Well, > that's only corn. That's not anything else." said the many, fearful of > their jobs and the overthrow of their life's work. > > For several reasons the open pollenated Indian corn McClintock used was a > very easy plant to prove that mutation, most of it benign or even > beneficial, occurs with every new generation. But Rudolf Steiner in lecture > two says in effect that this is the situation with all plants, and we may > presume all organisms. Folks producing GMOs and patenting organisms > involuntarily reject this information seeing as how it is contrary to their > assumptions. They don't even notice the information. After all, if they saw > things as they truly are it would blow their whole game, and would give > them an inkling of what a scarry Pandora's Box they are lifting the lid of. > > The spiritual lesson here? One of the more valuable things we can do > spiritually is to examine our assumptions and start discarding, cleaning > up, opening our minds and utilizing our senses--all of them. > > Regards, > > Hugh Lovel > Blairsville, Georgia > > "If you want what visible reality can give, you're an employee. > If you want the unseen world, you're not living your truth. > Both wishes are foolish, but you'll be forgiven for forgetting > that what you really want is love's confusing joy." --Rumi -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 00:58:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA26092 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:57:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15374; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:47:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheddar.direct.ca (cheddar.direct.ca [199.60.229.16]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15322 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:46:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0215.direct.ca ([204.244.83.31] helo=direct.ca) by cheddar.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #20) id 10Ob6c-0004VS-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:49:02 -0800 Message-ID: <36F4865A.B73B8CCC@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:40:43 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: bee weekend with B. Hauk References: <002101be733d$e7b5c040$a09dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------8EAB305784F807A17C9699AE" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 269 --------------8EAB305784F807A17C9699AE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just received the NEWSLETTER FOR THE ANTHROPOSOPHICAL COMMUNITY IN BC in which I read that Guenther Hauk (and not B. Hauk) will be at ONLINE FARMS in Courtenay, B.C. on Saturday, April 24th, 1999 in connection with the Bio-Dynamic Agriculture Society's AGM. Call 250-832-5401. Regards Ferdinand PS I do not live on Vancouver Island, as you know. Michael Roboz wrote: > Hello, especially to the bdnower from Courtenay. A little while ago, > there was an announcement about Hauk coming to the Island. Could you > repost it please. Many thanks, Michael -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 --------------8EAB305784F807A17C9699AE Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just received the NEWSLETTER FOR THE ANTHROPOSOPHICAL COMMUNITY IN BC in which I read that Guenther Hauk (and not B. Hauk) will be at ONLINE FARMS in Courtenay, B.C. on Saturday, April 24th, 1999 in connection with the Bio-Dynamic Agriculture Society's AGM. Call 250-832-5401.

Regards Ferdinand

PS I do not live on Vancouver Island, as you know.

Michael Roboz wrote:

 Hello, especially to the bdnower from Courtenay.  A little while ago, there was an announcement about Hauk coming to the Island. Could you repost it please. Many thanks, Michael

--

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an
understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest
Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001
  --------------8EAB305784F807A17C9699AE-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 00:58:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA26100 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:58:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15134; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:44:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA14964 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:42:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0215.direct.ca ([204.244.83.31] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10Ob33-00073W-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:45:21 -0800 Message-ID: <36F48568.C85A422E@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:36:40 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: a show of hands References: <01BE7245.0D1F0840@FLYLO> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 270 Dear Martha, An MD or ND may supply a better answer. Generally speaking, the skin of our hands (and for that matter the entire body) is wrapped in oils, acids and many a helpful bacteria. Last winter I spent some time at my friend's jewelry shop where he is cutting diamonds. There, he has magnifying glasses to the order of X500 and more. Innocently, I put my thumb underneath it and was shocked to see that I could look miles deep into my skin. Really, it looked like crevices, glaciers, mountains and so forth. Have you ever looked at your (clean) skin under such a microscope? Well, you will be in for a serious shock. Now, dirt particles, soil, sand, chalk, plant residues etc. etc. will get caught in-between those (tiny) cracks and enlarge the surface of the skin considerably. This, then, will permit air to dry it faster. The skin is simply not able to replace the water that it is loosing until some of the oils (that were removed by working in the soil) and the bacteria as well as other ingredients, are back to normal. Again, have a look at your skin (avoid the face as you may be shocked even further) and be perplexed - and DO IT before and after a work out in the soil. Regards Ferdinand PS Humus or even cow manure does not destroy the skin as much as certain clays or sand and cement. Martha Wells wrote: > Yesterday, I was digging in new soil. (*Well, new to me anyhow.) I was > making some room to put rosemary in amongst the newly forming herb bed, > planted out some cherry tomatoes, and dug around the sprouting blackberry > vines. Generally, had my hands in the dirt for a number of hours. > Normally, I can wash my hands after playing in the dirt and go about my > business, but I noticed they were very dry and 'stiff'. Even after washing, > they took quite awhile to get moisture back to skin surface. > Now, normally, I'd have just thought, ok, work in the garden, your hands > get dry and rough. (no real big deal). But I'm now wondering (thanks to you > BD gang) if the soil itself wasn't using or taking the oils and particles > from my skin surface. Well, it had to go SOMEWHERE, didn't it? martha -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 01:01:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA26129 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:01:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15641; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:50:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheddar.direct.ca (cheddar.direct.ca [199.60.229.16]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15422 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:47:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0215.direct.ca ([204.244.83.31] helo=direct.ca) by cheddar.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #20) id 10Ob7f-0004X8-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:50:08 -0800 Message-ID: <36F4869B.1491EBC@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:41:47 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Horn clay / Clay Soil References: <002601be7350$bb8cd720$8c9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 271 Having visited Kahumana for 14 years,well, I should say so. Regards Ferdinand Michael Roboz wrote: > Ferdy, most interesting! > > As you know, Kahumana's soil is heavy in the volcanic clay base. Did you > find an underlining melancholy with the inhabitant of Kahumana in your > experience? > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ferdinand Vondruska > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 7:45 PM > Subject: Re: Horn clay / Clay Soil > > >Dear Tony, > >As many a Sussex (England) fellow may be able to tell you, clay has the > >tendency to make people a bit melancholic. I spent six years on clay soil > >and really felt its influence. Regards Ferdinand > > > >Tony Nelson-Smith wrote: > > > >> Dear Hugh and other wise folks - I have heavy clay about 1-2 feet down, > >> I don't know how deep (have never found the energy to dig far enough > >> down). So far, my efforts have all been to open it up by digging in > >> compost, leaf mould, fibrous pond dredgings etc. How do my needs to > >> energise this clay compare with yours in open sandy soil? Tony N-S. > > > >-- > > > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > > >C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest > >into an > >understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar > >World Forest > >Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 > > > > -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 01:05:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA26144 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:05:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15860; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:53:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alphalink.com.au (mail.alphalink.com.au [203.24.205.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15756 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:52:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from alphalink.com.au (ppp39-0-Rosebud.alphalink.com.au [203.62.183.39]) by mail.alphalink.com.au (8.9.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA17551 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:53:55 +1000 Message-ID: <36F48A45.8673A7FF@alphalink.com.au> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:57:25 +1100 From: SJ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Secrets Of the Soil References: <36F48334.A9C2A7AF@direct.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 272 Dear Bder's, I have the old edition of "Secrets of the Soil", does anyone think it is worth getting the new edition? are there many changes in the editon? Thank you and Kind regards, Stephen from the Great Southern Land....OZ....!!!!! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 06:55:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA27889 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 06:55:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA01511; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 06:41:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA01436 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 06:40:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp335.cy-net.net [208.21.195.144]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA26092 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 05:43:34 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE735C.5D308940@FLYLO>; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 05:33:35 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE735C.5D308940@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Corporations and a call by Hugh Lovel Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 05:32:16 -0600 Encoding: 60 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 273 There is something new in corporate structure lately also, a different system designed by a combination of lawyers and psychologists. The 'cutting edge' managers are quoting HPWS, (High Performing Work Systems), and the Covey System, and some other 'touchie feelie' feel-goodisms. Dupont has an entire department called The Oz Network that makes up films on how to get the upper management and the actual grunt worker to look toward the same goals. That is everyone becomes responsible for the product and work. Many plants no longer have supervisors, they have 'resources' who can only guide the plant to peak performances, can't actually take any legit action. And, if you looked at the 'dream infrastructure' they don't show the general hierarchy, boss on top, product and customer outside that peak, with supervisors managers in the middle and layworkers going to the bottom. Managers and owners are now shown on the bottom giving push (encouragement) to the middle gang, resources and workers who are more directly involved in product and customer. There are all sorts of diagrams (pentagrams, stars, hexagrams, etc) to show the work flow and when there is a problem, the 'mapping' to get to the root of the problem and solve it. This is supposed to make everyone more of a 'hive worker' rather than everyone for himself and his paycheck. (One of the diagrams actually is a honeycomb pattern of overlay of responsibility.) This all sounds great but in actuality, it rarely works. "HONOR THE ENVIRONMENT" is a level but it's glossed over and barely mentioned. They have to by law, and that's about as token as they take it. The most important change in the infrastructure shows that the company as a whole are all SHARE OWNERS, who directly answer to share holders. By making the guy on production line a share owner on the same level as the corporate president, they all feel like they are responsible and proud to serve the customer and share holders. I went into this atmosphere as a temporary and from the outside, it looks pretty ridiculous to me. When there is a huge problem, there is no one responsible. (the core plan here, I think.) So, if you actually were able to confront what looks like the main core of the dept who is responsible for GE seed, (should Monsanto be a HPWS), there would be no one to actually address about the serious consequences when they don't honor the environment. In their way, compliance with EPA rulings, etc, they are ok with the environment, no matter what product they are producing. I've always thought that naming these unnatural facilities 'PLANTS' was a serious misnomer in itself. By calling themselves that, they are vying with Nature to take raw materials and produce an end result. (a car, a barrel of oil, a plastic bucket, etc.) About ten to fifteen years ago corporations and companies have shifted from a responsible management style (taking employees and the environment into consideration) to ROI (return on investment) - this on behalf of the so called shareholder. Whatever is done these days is done under the cover of: on behalf of the shareholder (which could include anybody on this BDNOW list who owns shares of any company or a bank, etc, etc.) I remember when someone invented that new catch phrase (we must do it for the shareholder). With this the responsibility slipped into the hands of an unknown, hidden entity which nobody knows or has met. From now on forward you could do anything, nay, had to do anything on behalf and for the shareholder (as long as you made a lot of money, and fast!). From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 09:04:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA28464 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:04:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07427; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:53:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from rtfm.midcoast.com (root@dns.midcoast.com [206.26.226.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07293 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:50:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from jpt (liberty-c-013.midcoast.com [208.153.20.113]) by rtfm.midcoast.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA16754 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:53:43 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990321083744.008350c0@midcoast.com> X-Sender: stgeorge@midcoast.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:37:44 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "John P. Thomas and Kathleen Barrett" Subject: Re: OFF: for Jane and other misc items In-Reply-To: <9c3609ce.36f472f7@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 274 Christine I can't find Ferdinand's post on his experience with his son's teeth. I found my post in response to it dated March 13, which was under the subject of "banding, docking, de-horning & etheric force". The subject was later changed to teeth. His original post was probably on March 12th. John St. George Farm Freedom, Maine, USA At 11:17 PM 3/20/99 EST, you wrote: >Dear neighbor in NY, > >I shouldn't muse in snatches. >So part of the rest of the muse sort of went...we are all so aware that we are >at a pretty intense crossroads, a cross that is already shaking us up. The >wonderful thing about BDNOW is that we have the opportunity to meet and share >ideas, so that no matter where we find ourselves after no matter how many >crossings we can remain together in the common vision we are trying to form. > >However, my throwing out capacity is as great as my muse is short. Whoever has >read up to here: I need help again with another post. I can't believe I threw >it out. I have a letter from a woman worried about orthodonture for her young >child. Can ANYONE help me retrieve the post about the child that was given >curative eurythmy for crooked teeth? If not, I'll have to jump into the >archives which fills me with dread. > >And, if you're STILL reading, could you please let me have times and dates of >any significant events like BD talks, workshops, openings or whatever taking >place in June, July, August. I will put them in the Calendar of Events of this >upcoming LILIPOH. > >Thank you for your patience. >Christine > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 09:10:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA28505 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:10:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07677; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:59:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07540 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:57:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 13497 invoked from network); 21 Mar 1999 07:00:19 -0700 Received: from ts2-34.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO cyberhighway.net) (209.161.18.185) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 21 Mar 1999 07:00:19 -0700 Message-ID: <36F4FB7A.2949EBA3@cyberhighway.net> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 07:00:27 -0700 From: Pam DeTray Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: White Moon Dancing X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Ferd's teeth post Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1D93DC2DDE2E483DE0C9CDE1" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 275 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1D93DC2DDE2E483DE0C9CDE1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------1D93DC2DDE2E483DE0C9CDE1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Delivered-To: psdetray@cyberhighway.net Received: (qmail 23592 invoked from network); 13 Mar 1999 09:35:17 -0700 Received: from smtp1.cyberhighway.net (209.161.0.33) by spool2.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 13 Mar 1999 09:35:17 -0700 Received: (qmail 23526 invoked from network); 13 Mar 1999 09:35:17 -0700 Received: from manatee.envirolink.org (HELO envirolink.org) (208.195.208.7) by smtp2.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 13 Mar 1999 09:35:17 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01823; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:24:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from swiss.direct.ca (swiss.direct.ca [199.60.229.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01642 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:22:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0108.direct.ca ([204.244.83.8] helo=direct.ca) by swiss.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10LrDY-0003J6-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:24:52 -0800 Message-ID: <36EA90BB.238C48AB@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:22:19 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: banding, docking, and de-horning & etheric forces References: <1215265F5B24@agecon.uga.edu> <36E930F5.70718922@direct.ca> <36E948EE.8D4DE3F9@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 My dear friend Rex, 18 years ago I had a son (who is now 25) who had the most deformed teeth arrangement one could imagine. I went to a dentist (in Germany) who happened to be an Anthroposophist. We discussed Chris' teeth and he said to me: There are two possibilities 1. We tear, re-set, brace and file or 2. You do Eurythmie (Dr. Steiner's movement) with him for a long time. IN the morning, for 10 minutes. Well, my son and I did it for 2 - 3 years. His teeth have re-arranged themselves totally. You see, Rex, the formative forces in our children (and animals) are starting to lose their connection to the creative centre (if one can simplify it that way). It is like an artist gone bonkers on a canvas without direction any longer. And so, the formative forces are 'painting' all over the place creating deformations in the most sensitive areas (and that, funny enough are the teeth and the skull). Here, the most intensive, the most exacting (again, if one want to call it that way) work has to be done (millimeter, thens of a millimeter work) so that the teeth fit onto each other. Well, if we do NOT love the creation, we will not go to work with it over long(er) periods of time. We are going to be challenged in our hearts. Cutting, trimming, operating, stunting, hacking etc. etc. are short term solutions which, as far as I am concerned, does not demand much love but rather technical know-how (well, a bit of love, too - to learn the techniqe). However, when you do Euruthmy with a child OR work eurythmically with nature, you have to become one with it first so that you may understand it better. You have to give up your (technical, preconceived) ideas and 'suffer' with the creation first BEFORE you can offer (short lived) solutions. Dr. Steiner's indications are indications for the very long term. Of course, we can see changes within a year or two when applying BD Preparations, however, the very long term changes will only become known in many, many generations. Again, much more could be said. Regards Ferdinand Rex Harrill wrote: > Ferdinand Vondruska wrote "Let me say this": > > > The tail of any animal is connected to is psyche. Every animal expresses > > its feelings via its tail. I can see that with my (small brain Ostriches) > > and my dogs, the cat, horses, cows and all. If you cut that part of or > > shorten it, the animal tends to get out of balance. Nature would take > > care of this by eliminating such 'a creation'. Sheep that cannot signal > > their pleasure or displeasure to their mates would, eventually, be > > eliminated by the wolf. > > > > Of course, mankind has done a lot of diforming of animals by Xbreeding, > > off-breeding, inbreeding, outbreeding and so forth. Most animals that we > > call domesticated would likely not survive by themselves in nature for > > long. It is likely that (if such breeds would survive for a while) future > > generations would start to 'approximate' their ancestors again. > > > > My sister is breeding Rottweiler (dogs) and by law (in Switzerland) and > > as of the year 2000 tails must NOT be cut any longer. What a different > > looking dog a Rottweiler with a long tail is. It is mindboggling. And > > now, by the 'power of this long tail' the entire pivoting point of the > > dog is shifting to the back. It is as if a new organ (i.e. the old one) > > has been added again and it is MUCH easier to read this dog again. > > > > Much more could be said. > > MUCH MORE COULD BE SAID! Good grief, must you contiually astound me? Can we stretch your > thought to cover the pitifully thin facial organs of so many of today's mineral-poor children? > Can we go so far as to recognize that pulling children's wisdom teeth and using tortuous metal > braces to reform their very skull bones is as barbaric as cutting off Rottweilers' tails? Can > we finally understand that we are castrating our children by not providing them abundant > mineral-rich fare? > > I *really* appreciated this post. Right now I'm wondering if there is a long line of would-be > apprentices forming for the no-pay privilege of working shoulder-to-shoulder for a season with > a man who sees the universe in marvelous light. > > Regards, > Rex Harrill -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST INTO AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR WORLD FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. --------------1D93DC2DDE2E483DE0C9CDE1-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 10:07:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28759 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:07:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10697; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:56:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10612 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:55:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (modem77.digisys.net [205.138.110.126]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA00985 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 07:58:06 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F50971.57E795E1@digisys.net> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:00:01 -0700 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Ferd's teeth post References: <36F4FB7A.2949EBA3@cyberhighway.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 276 Ferdinand, The Dictionary says eurythmy is "a system of harmonious body movement to the rhythm of spoken words." Could you give us an example please. Pat Hironimus From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 10:10:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28788 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:10:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10864; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:59:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10770 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:57:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts1-5.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.199.6]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with SMTP id HAA31295; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 07:00:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990321075408.0094d330@mail.kootenay.com> X-Sender: woodyw@mail.kootenay.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 07:56:37 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Woody Subject: Re: Astro-Agriculture Cc: whiteowl@digisys.net In-Reply-To: <36F14C4F.58501ABE@digisys.net> References: <004e01be7160$7a883ae0$964b2e9c@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 277 Dear Pam and Pat: Barbara and Nate arrived home safely last evening before 10 PM. I think she bypassed Pat's place, just wanting to come on home. Lovely to have 'em back...of course! Regards to you both... Woody At 11:56 AM 3/18/99 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Julie and All .... let me add some astrological notation to Julie's fine >questions. > >Julie M. wrote: > >> Hi everyone.. >> >> Thought I'd pose some thoughts & questions to those sky-gazing farmers >> amongst us. Here, dairy [Moon, Virgo] farmers [4th house, Saturn, Capricorn] >> have just been slammed with a record drop [Saturn enters Taurus, transiting >> Mars turns retrograde] in > >> the Basic Price Formula (BFP) for February. Since I am a student of the >> stars, and the cows [Moon, 4th house] themselves, the milk [Moon, Cancer, 4th >> house] production & pricing [mundane chart: 2]seems to >> follow as oppty. to gain further insights into this mysterious cycle. >> >> (Sorry, I'm in tropical mode, but am a neophyte, and I do pay homage to the >> siderealist system, by planting by their calendar:-)) >> >> The likes of this "crash" have not been seen since 5/5/91. In comparing the >> two dates, both times Saturn was in early degrees of fixed signs & within a >> wide 7-degree orb of hard aspect to cardinal moons (3/5/99 - Saturn @ 0 >> Taurus opposed a 22-degree Libran moon. On 5/5/91 Saturn @ 6 Aquarius >> conjuncted a 29-degree Capricorn moon. Both times the aspects were at wide >> 7-degree orbs and applying. >> >> Interestingly, this most recent drop is the largest month-to-month decline >> ever, but is the 7th lowest price paid this decade. The govt. [Sun, Leo, >> Capricorn, 10th house] is stepping in >> with a Dairy Income Loss Assistance program, but the payment plan is fuzzy & >> no one will be seeing any real cash for quite awhile. As a result, expect to >> see MORE small family farms bite the dust, as it is they that are closest to >> living from milk check to milk check. This reminds me of Steven's note about >> Saturn entering very earthy, very agricultural Taurus, and the struggles we >> can expect to see. > >In the U.S. Chart (7/4/1776, 4:20pm LMT, Philadelphia, PA, Gemini Asc chart: >Koch house system) transiting Neptune has just recently moved into the U.S. 3rd >house. Neptune rules the U.S. 4th house and 16 degrees of the U.S. 3rd house. >Positive Neptune words are empathy, sympathetic understanding, contemplative, >Spirit. Not so positive Neptune words are: gullible, suspicious, taken >advantage of, exploited, being imposed upon, used, misused, milked-dry, the >gradual disappearance of something. Neptune in Aquarius on the positive side >relates to noble aims and aspirations; on the negative side it is fraud, >dissolving, vanishing, insincerity and the ability to easily influence others. >The 3rd house involves information dissemination, contacts with the public and >transportation of all sorts. The 4th house among other things is farming. > >Transiting Saturn is currently located in the U.S. 5th house (attitude or >actions of the governing body), and on 4/25/99 (tropical) enters the U.S. 6th >house (health conditions of the nation, inception of labor troubles and >strikes). Wherever transiting Saturn resides there is a reduction, a down turn >in things, belt-tightening time. Saturn is also an economic plant, and governs >agriculture (along with the 4th house and Cancer). Saturn is co-ruler of the >U.S. 2nd house (the values the government "subscribes to", what's important to >the government, the means the government uses to obtain its "cash flow"). > >The upcoming square between transiting Neptune and transiting Saturn can mean >many things. One of course being "tightening the screws" (Saturn) on farmers >and >agriculture in general by means of deluding (Neptune) the public (Moon) and >agriculture that chemicals, Monsanto & GE are good for our health (transiting >Saturn to the U.S. 6th house). Fortunately the square says "it won't be >easy". A >square says there's an obstacle and carries the energy of Mars. Transiting Mars >stations retrograde today in Scorpio. Transiting Mars retrograde suggests >there's a pause, stoppage, recess or lull in secret and behind-the-scenes >activities of the government (U.S. 12th house). Mars rules 12 degrees of the >U.S. 4th house (agriculture). Since transiting Mars retrograde is a >reevaluation >of a course of action or a cessation of interest, the previous drive and focus >in what might have been important to the government undergoes a reversal of >interest. > >Traditionally, Saturn rules Aquarius. That makes Saturn co-ruler of the U.S. >2nd >house (what our government "buys into" for the sake of the economic >bottom-line. >As we said, Neptune is in Aquarius in the U.S. 3rd house. Saturn says >"enough is >enough." Neptune suggests where the deceptive and fraudulent information is >coming from (U.S. 3rd). The square could potentially manifest as our government >losing interest in backing the chemical companies for the sake of a buck. > >Pat Hironimus >http://www.simplyhealthfarms.com > >> >> >> The other thing that is striking to me, is the recent movement of Neptune >> (chemicals, delusion) into scientific, intellectual, detached Aquarius. This >> seems to me to be the perfect setting for Monsanto & GE to challenge the >> truly traditional earthy agricultural methods (and in fact the actual >> 90-degree square that is about to occur between Neptune in Aquarius & Saturn >> in Taurus portends such a challenge!) Clearly Monsanto & its scientists are >> deceiving (possibly even self-delusion, that this technology will, in fact, >> feed the world - again, a humanitarian (Aquarian) representation, and much >> of the world is deluded, or apathetic at best. >> >> One more thing... I was really happy (finally a wonderful answer!) to read >> Glen's post to Parker about Tropical charts representing a more mundane view >> of an individual, and sidereal charts a clearer inner goal (did I understand >> this correctly?) then perhaps there is some insight to be gained into a >> sidereal assessment of what's happening w/agriculture? Because perhaps that >> is where the answer lies...what is happening here on a collective, inner >> level? >> >> So is this too weird? What say you spiritual, star-watching servants of the >> earth? >> >> Searching, >> >> Julie > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 11:34:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29420 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:34:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17669; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:23:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17573 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:22:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max16-15.stc.net [208.210.138.143]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA10447 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:25:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <12F51C893EAFEFD58525673A006777E1.006995658525673A@webcity> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 05:33:52 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: OFF: Re: Spirit on the List Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 278 Jane Sherry writes: >Dear Friends on Bd-Now, > >In all this discussion of Monsanto and even of building up the soils, there >has been comparatively little talk of the spiritual component of this work >that is biodynamics. Dear Jane, I know what you mean. However, since we're not a society accustomed to discussing spiritual things, sometimes we may talk about them and not realize it. I am talking about the spiritual side of life when I: * Talk about turning biodynamic practice into more of an art rather than a rote procedure. * Talk about how the mind involuntarily rejects information contrary to its assumptions. * Talk about examining our assumptions and beliefs and clearing our path of our impediments to clarity. * Talk about the futility of giving advice when what is needed is cognition--which may be drawn out but cannot be "downloaded" to others. * Talk about the backwardness of thinking we must inform young minds when such information is meaningless and useless without a good grasp of the hidden connections, the underlying significances, which are something that must be drawn out via cognition in the educational process. Where are our teacher colleges that train teachers to ellicit, to educe? * Talk about the difficulty of making the world conform to our standards as compared to perceiving the standards of Creation and changing our standards to conform. * Talk about collapsed concepts and how they limit our understanding and conceptions. Some common collapsed concepts include thinking "making" is the same as "getting", "owning" is the same as "having", "money" is the same as "wealth", "effort" is the same as "accomplishment", ad nauseum. What a lot of trouble we can get into with collapsed concepts. Think about it. Looking words up in the dictionary with a keen and discriminating attitude is a most valuable spiritual exercise. I could go on and on. I season my posts pretty liberally with spiritual content when you stop to think about it. For one thing I try to evoke mental imagry with figures of speech and with what I hope are colorful examples that in-spire (again, spirit) thought on the part of readers. Art, it seems to me, is evocative of spirit, and to me evoking whimsical insights, wistful tender musings and colorful examples alongside profound general principles infuses spirit into this otherwise lifeless computer game. Ah, yes. The spirit is present under every mundane cloak, as matter cannot abide without spirit nor spirit without matter. What are you saying when you say something "matters" a lot to you? That fact that it matters to you anchors and fertilizes your spiritual growth, and forms the spiritual soil for your inner development. When you think about it this way there's a lot of spirit on this list. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." --Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 11:46:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29566 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:46:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18666; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:35:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18542 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:34:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([195.44.4.178]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:37:58 +0000 Message-ID: <36F520A2.31DC@cwcom.net> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:38:58 +0000 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Horn clay and clay soil Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 279 Thank you, Ferdy, for your comments. I realise that I have lived on a clay soil all my life (born on London clay) so I'd not really know what to measure my degree of melancholy against. Being on the spring line under a hill, I feel pretty sad now, when I can see tufts of rushes sprouting on my waterlogged lawn - but I know I'll feel happier in late summer, when others are complaining about the drought. Sorry to read that you're ducking out for a bit, I always look forward to your wise words. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 13:50:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00991 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:50:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02891; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:39:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02695 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:38:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.4]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:42:47 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:41:21 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Re: Spirit on the List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 280 Great Post Hugh, Why has this now become an OFF subject prefix? Has this discussion somehow gone OFF topic for you? Actually I think we could put both the thread you began on corporations into the thread about the Spiritual Perspective on GMO's and still be in very biodynamic territory. I do very much appreciate your artful discussions on learning how to see beyond our own assumptions, on learning how to examine "collapsed concepts" and language itself in order to better understand ourselves, and by extension our culture and our land and animals and soil. I wish more corporations had men like you as chairman and more public schools had men like you as educators. I also think that on this list, there is room for explicit conversation about soul development, something about which Steiner was quite articulate, highly detailed and quite prolific in his writings. I realize that many folks view conversations with Devas, nature spirits, their 'higher selves' and such as a kind of "California woo woo" (an expression, I actually dislike) and would prefer to stick to the basics, the how to's and explicit instructions on "how to farm biodynamically". Somewhere along the way in my studies of Steiner, the ag course, listening to you and other bd-now soil scientists and farmers, I found myself totally overwhelmed by information and rather confused. Perhaps if I had a farm with which to put more of these ideas and concepts into practical application and beyond my little 'balcony' garden, I would understand more clearly. But what I have felt is missing in my own attempts to grasp these mysterious basics of farming, is not a farm, but is the further & continued development of my own intuitive senses...my own conversations with "nature spirits". I remember when Ferdinand talked about how the Devas are retreating from the earth. I felt sad and actually felt also that this can NOT be entirely true. Recently I had the good fortune to speak with a young man who grew up on a farm, who quite naturally has & does commune and communicate with nature spirits. He said to me that everyone has Deva's but they usually don't "have the slightest clue" and "don't work with them at all". It was this comment that inspired (yes, the spirit moved me!) comments about 'my' need to hear more about these things from the more experienced farmers on this list. It was not meant as a criticism, although I am sure now, it came out that way. Corporations to me are a good archetypal example of the schizophrenic nature of our culture at this point in time. People on both the right and the left politically talk the talk about "family values" and yet somehow our lawmakers and our police forces are not compelled or empowered to support systems which in fact DO support families. (Never mind the food aspect of supporting families...ever see what kinds of food are available to people who need to go to food banks, food pantrys and the like?) People can't even agree right now about what exactly qualifies as a family. More money is spent on prisons than on education in this country. Money spent on education is money spent promoting materialism, the status quo and even advertising and certainly not the kind of thinking that Hugh describes so thoroughly in his post. Corporations feel no need to worry about the health, safety or leisure time of their workers/employees. People are lucky if there's any time leftover after working on their jobs and doing the wash, cleaning the house, reprovisioning to even talk to their kids and spouses, let alone have enough energy to play, dream, and support a real spiritual education. Our culture values leisure only as an excuse to get them to consume more useless, souless goods for the sake of the ever increasing market growth. So, I think it's forums like this one that need to keep a balanced approach to biodynamics, by not just offering material solutions but to be emboldened to speak directly to the soul (more frequently than many members already do). In spite of what you may perceive as unjust criticism, it has been my experience on this list, that has very much provided much food for thought, for practical application as well as for my spirit! Hey, I just want to hear more about Devas! And for that I thank you all and Allan as well, for all his work providing this forum! Best Regards, Jane Sherry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 13:59:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01163 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:59:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03997; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:48:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03585 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:46:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.6]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:50:32 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:49:06 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: for Jane and other misc items Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 281 <> thanks Christine, for fleshing this out a bit for me...I have so thoroughly enjoyed being a part of this community and hope to meet up with more members somehow this year! BD workshops at The Pfeiffer Center this year (914-352-5020, ext 20 or info@Pfeiffercenter.org: Jennifer Green doing a water workshop ("Water, H2O or much more?") 4-17-99 Guenther Hauk's Intro to Organic Beekeeping w/ROckland County beekeeper Ron Breland 4-20 thru 5-1-99 and other workshops learning to use a scythe, educating kids, The secrets of nature with Dennis Klocek...call them for a brochure. And Guenther Hauk is indeed doing a bee workshop in Vancouver on 4-24, contact is Christoph Altemueller at (250) 746-4117 or (250) 748-4287 acc. to Vivian at the Pfeiffer Center. Thanks for all your good work! Regards, Jane Sherry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 14:00:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01175 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:00:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04079; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:49:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03629 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:46:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.6]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:50:56 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:49:29 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: March 20, 1999 - March 26, 1999 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id NAA03630 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 282 Calendar of the Soul [March 20, 1999 - March 26, 1999] Fiftieth Week (March 16-22) Thus to the human ego speaks In mighty revelation, Unfolding its inherent powers, The joy of growth throughout the world: I carry into you my life From its enchanted bondage And so attain my truest goal. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Es spricht zum Menschen-Ich, Sich machtvoll offenbarend Und seines Wesens Kräfte lösend, Des Weltendaseins Werdelust: In dich mein Leben tragend Aus seinem Zauberbanne, Erreiche ich mein wahres Ziel. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+50 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 14:00:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01183 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:00:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04173; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:49:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03922 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:48:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.6]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:53:02 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:51:35 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF:Math Textbook Salted With Brand Names Raises New Alarm (NYTIMes article today) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 283 Math Textbook Salted With Brand Names Raises New Alarm (from the New York Times) By CONSTANCE L. HAYS Joe Stein got a big surprise last fall when his 11-year-old son Noah asked him for help with homework. There on the page of Noah's sixth-grade math textbook was "what looked like an ad for a chain electronics store," said Stein. Going through the rest of the book, Stein discovered references to a wide array of brand-name consumer products, from Nike and Gatorade to Disneyland and Topps baseball cards, many of which appeared in illustrations as well. And that made him angry. "He has to use this textbook, and he has to do the work that is intertwined with these advertisements," said Stein, whose son attends middle school in Albany, Calif., north of Berkeley. "I found it offensive that the lesson he was learning was about commercialism and how even the school district and other public forums weren't free from this sort of thing. I also wondered who was getting paid for this. I assumed that textbooks wouldn't put this free of charge in the text." The textbook, "Mathematics: Applications and Connections," published by McGraw-Hill Inc. in 1995 and revised this year, is used in schools in about 15 states, including California and Texas, and has been approved for use in New York City. But a spokesman for McGraw-Hill said the publisher received no payments from companies whose products appear in the book. "We have no commercial or promotional arrangements to use particular brands," said the spokesman, Neal Allen. One of the book's authors said that the well-known products were included simply to make the math problems more relevant to sixth graders. Yet critics contend that the textbook amounts to a collection of advertisements that, especially because they appear in a book used in the classroom, press specific consumer products onto unsuspecting schoolchildren. The blizzard of name-dropping and product images, along with almost reverential descriptions of the companies, can only make children more brand-conscious, they say. "This looks like product placement, as they do in the movies," said David Walsh, director of the National Institute on Media and the Family, based in Minneapolis, which studies the effect of advertising on families. "The effect is the same. It gets at what I call the golden rule of influence, which is when the person being influenced doesn't even know it." Stein, a lawyer for the federal government in San Francisco, complained about the 1995 edition of the textbook. The 1999 version remains drenched with product shots and trivia about everything from Barbie dolls (Mattel), Cocoa Frosted Flakes (Kellogg), Sony Play Stations, Spalding basketballs, characters and entertainment sites owned by Disney and Warner Bros. and fast-food fare from Burger King and McDonald's. Those who oppose salting a textbook with brand names say it is the most egregious example of advertising's steady march through public education. "This is the first time we've seen advertising in state-subsidized textbooks," said Andrew Hagelshaw, senior program director at the Center for Commercial-Free Public Education in Oakland, Calif. Noting that taxpayer dollars paid for textbooks that school districts bought from McGraw-Hill, he added, "It crosses a line that hasn't been crossed before." He and others trace the trend of school acceptance of advertising to 1989, when thousands of schools began signing up for free televisions offered by Channel One. In return they had to agree to show their pupils current-affairs programming that included commercials from many consumer product companies eager to pitch their wares to children. School districts are seen as prime targets by computer software publishers, fast-food chains, soft-drink bottlers and other corporations, which believe that brand loyalty begins at an early age. Some offer schools lucrative contracts intended to promote their products and keep their competitors out. The McGraw-Hill textbook is intended to turn word problems into real-life situations to better teach the principles of sixth-grade math. For example, the 1995 edition, still in use in many places, introduces a decimal division problem as follows: "Will is saving his allowance to buy a pair of Nike shoes that cost $68.25. If Will earns $3.25 per week, how many weeks will Will need to save?" To the right of the text is a full-color picture of a pair of Nikes. Another word problem, this one in the 1999 edition, gives a plug to Oreos, made by Nabisco: "The best-selling packaged cookie in the world is the Oreo cookie," it begins. "The diameter of an Oreo cookie is 1.75 inches. Express the diameter of an Oreo cookie as a fraction in simplest form." A section on surface area in the same edition asks students to calculate the surface area of a box of Cocoa Frosted Flakes, adding some gratuitous information about when the cereal was introduced. Another page, titled "School to Career," highlights Lands' End, the mail-order apparel company. "Consumers can purchase unique clothing and accessories, and products for the home," the section reads. Not everyone insists on keeping the schools pure of consumer product information. But the math book goes too far, its critics say, in making references to products and companies so specifically and without any real context. "If you want children to deal with the real world, tell them to go out there and compare the prices of Nike and Reebok and Adidas and a store brand," suggested Charlotte Baecher, director of the Zillions Education Center at Consumers Union, which tries to sharpen children's awareness about advertising. "Then they will be getting a real lesson, instead of just a reinforcement that Nike is the most popular brand." She added that the word problem featuring Nike was an effective advertisement. "The whole point of advertising to kids is not about getting any particular message out," she said. "It's about getting that brand name to hit them in all sorts of places." One of the book's 12 authors, Patricia S. Wilson, an associate professor in the mathematics education department at the University of Georgia, said the brand names were scattered through the book almost unconsciously. "I don't recall ever actually discussing not using logos," she said. "Certainly, we didn't discuss trying to use logos. It was more the examples that people came up with." She said she knew of no company that had paid to be included in the book, adding, "What would bother me is if I knew there was some kind of financial agreement with somebody." One suggestion she did recall was using commercial logos as part of a section on symmetry. "You're trying to get into what people are familiar with, so they can see, hey, mathematics is in the world out there," she said. Putting real-life situations into math problems for sixth graders, she added, "is an important issue -- having products that are interesting to that age group, to hook into where they are." In California, the attention drawn to the book by Stein prompted one legislator to sponsor a bill to ban commercial references and logos in school textbooks. In fact, California already has a state guideline intended to prevent such references, but as Stein's experience shows, it does not always work. Kerry Mazzoni, chairwoman of the California State Assembly's education committee, introduced the bill in January. She said the state needed to be careful about the messages it sent schoolchildren. "We as a state should not be in a position of promoting one private-sector product over another," she said. Allen said that McGraw-Hill, prompted by Ms. Mazzoni's proposal, was "reviewing our policy with regard to screening out corporate logos." And he noted that textbooks were developed and revised in consultation with school committees that make suggestions about what should and should not be included. In California, the textbook was reviewed for compliance with state guidelines by a county education office, said Doug Stone, a spokesman for the state Department of Education. Because McGraw-Hill originally offered the book free to the state, he added, "it may not have received the thorough scrutiny that it should have gone through." California has demanded that future editions purchased by its school districts not carry brand names, Stone said, although he did not know when those editions would be printed. Permission to use the names and logos of some of the companies mentioned in the math textbook was sought and granted. Anna Rozevich, a spokeswoman for McDonald's, said her company was approached, "but we did not pay to be in the book." McDonald's gave permission for use of its name and logo, she said, because using real products "seemed to have intrinsic educational value for the children." But apparently no such permission was sought from several other companies regarding their images or statements concerning their products, according to their spokesmen. Ann Smith, a spokeswoman for Nabisco, said she could find no record of any request. Asked why Oreos might have been chosen for the math book, rather than Hydrox or other similar-looking brands, she said: "They probably wanted to represent something the masses would have knowledge of. Oreo is an American icon." That the companies did not pay anything for what would seem to be invaluable exposure to impressionable young minds through a school textbook is almost more troubling than if they had, some critics said. They say that fact reveals much about how the battle to keep classrooms free of commercialism has been lost. "It isn't implausible that a textbook writer simply chose this brand-name product without even thinking about it," said Alex Molnar, who directs the Center for the Study of Commercialism in Education at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, referring to the Oreo example. "But somebody ought to catch it." From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 14:08:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01301 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:08:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05349; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:57:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from send202.yahoomail.com (send202.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.126]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04992 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:54:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990321185737.1484.rocketmail@send202.yahoomail.com> Received: from [206.205.40.10] by send202.mail.yahoo.com; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:57:37 PST Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:57:37 -0800 (PST) From: bruce ritchie Subject: Re: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 284 To all, when I think about the compromises regarding what we eat, I know that we will all once in a while eat food not energized the way it should be. That's why I have begun to thing twice about the importance of praying over our food before we touch it. I know it's only a start, but I think it's a good start! bruce ritchie - _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 14:42:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01871 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:42:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08419; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:31:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08186 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:28:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp48.blueriver.mwt.net [156.46.253.175]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA08619 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:28:43 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <017201be73d0$e534ff00$affd2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie M." To: Subject: Re: OFF:Math Textbook Salted With Brand Names Raises New Alarm (NYTIMes articletoday) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:27:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 285 Thanks Jane, I'm so glad you sent this. I have been a vocal opponent of Channel One which has slithered into our local public school system. Incidentally, I'm ashamed to say I did not know what this was, other than a "news show" that the children were viewing at school each morning for about 10 min./day. After exploring the www.bioneers.org website last year, I found a clearer message, this excerpt forwarded from that site: >The Center for Commercial-Free Public Education 360 Grand Avenue, # 385 Oakland, CA 94610 (510) 268-1100 unplug@igc.org Endangered Education: How Corporate Polluters are Attacking Environmental Education. >This 1997 report from the Center's Consumers or Citizens Program reveals how right-wing and "Wise Use" groups - funded by corporate polluters such as Dow Chemical, Philip Morris, Texaco and others - are trying to derail environmental education with an Astroturf movement. Seattle constituents of the Center are working to rid their school district of Channel One, the in-school current events and advertising program viewed by 8 million students each school day. Contact the Center if you live in the Seattle area and want to get involved. Please email or write to the above address. Please note, these folks will help you no matter where you are. If Channel One has bought its way into your school system with video equipment, TV's etc., your children are getting the short end of the deal.The information that I received from them was astounding. How much time is actually spent, by our children, forced to sit for commercials, big business AND the MILITARY brainwashing the kids into lifetime brand loyalty, etc....everyone knows if you get the kids...you get the future. Thank goodness my outrage about this tactic has rubbed off on the family a bit...my 17 yr. old grilled the Navy recruiter who sits in the lunchroom hoping to snag youngsters about what they are really doing with their promises of glamour & higher education, noting how much they spend on advertising on Channel One! (This comes on the heals of the "mandatory" testing that the military administers to all High School Juniors, which they say is to aid the kids in career determination, and identifying weakness/strength academically, however the results never come back to the school!! They stay with the govt.! I excused my daughter from this testing, but not without a fight with the school administration! Unbelievable!) Julie -----Original Message----- From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 12:50 PM Subject: OFF:Math Textbook Salted With Brand Names Raises New Alarm (NYTIMes articletoday) >Math Textbook Salted With Brand Names Raises New Alarm (from the New York >Times) >By CONSTANCE L. HAYS > >Joe Stein got a big surprise last fall when his 11-year-old son Noah asked >him for help with homework. There on the page of Noah's sixth-grade math >textbook was "what looked like an ad for a chain electronics store," said >Stein. Going through the rest of the book, Stein discovered references to a >wide array of brand-name consumer products, from Nike and Gatorade to >Disneyland and Topps baseball cards, many of which appeared in >illustrations as well. And that made him angry. > >"He has to use this textbook, and he has to do the work that is intertwined >with these advertisements," said Stein, whose son attends middle school in >Albany, Calif., north of Berkeley. "I found it offensive that the lesson he >was learning was about commercialism and how even the school district and >other public forums weren't free from this sort of thing. I also wondered >who was getting paid for this. I assumed that textbooks wouldn't put this >free of charge in the text." > >The textbook, "Mathematics: Applications and Connections," published by >McGraw-Hill Inc. in 1995 and revised this year, is used in schools in about >15 states, including California and Texas, and has been approved for use in >New York City. > >But a spokesman for McGraw-Hill said the publisher received no payments >from companies whose products appear in the book. "We have no commercial or >promotional arrangements to use particular brands," said the spokesman, >Neal Allen. One of the book's authors said that the well-known products >were included simply to make the math problems more relevant to sixth >graders. > >Yet critics contend that the textbook amounts to a collection of >advertisements that, especially because they appear in a book used in the >classroom, press specific consumer products onto unsuspecting >schoolchildren. The blizzard of name-dropping and product images, along >with almost reverential descriptions of the companies, can only make >children more brand-conscious, they say. > >"This looks like product placement, as they do in the movies," said David >Walsh, director of the National Institute on Media and the Family, based in >Minneapolis, which studies the effect of advertising on families. "The >effect is the same. It gets at what I call the golden rule of influence, >which is when the person being influenced doesn't even know it." > >Stein, a lawyer for the federal government in San Francisco, complained >about the 1995 edition of the textbook. The 1999 version remains drenched >with product shots and trivia about everything from Barbie dolls (Mattel), >Cocoa Frosted Flakes (Kellogg), Sony Play Stations, Spalding basketballs, >characters and entertainment sites owned by Disney and Warner Bros. and >fast-food fare from Burger King and McDonald's. > >Those who oppose salting a textbook with brand names say it is the most >egregious example of advertising's steady march through public education. > >"This is the first time we've seen advertising in state-subsidized >textbooks," said Andrew Hagelshaw, senior program director at the Center >for Commercial-Free Public Education in Oakland, Calif. Noting that >taxpayer dollars paid for textbooks that school districts bought from >McGraw-Hill, he added, "It crosses a line that hasn't been crossed before." > > >He and others trace the trend of school acceptance of advertising to 1989, >when thousands of schools began signing up for free televisions offered by >Channel One. In return they had to agree to show their pupils >current-affairs programming that included commercials from many consumer >product companies eager to pitch their wares to children. > >School districts are seen as prime targets by computer software publishers, >fast-food chains, soft-drink bottlers and other corporations, which believe >that brand loyalty begins at an early age. Some offer schools lucrative >contracts intended to promote their products and keep their competitors >out. > >The McGraw-Hill textbook is intended to turn word problems into real-life >situations to better teach the principles of sixth-grade math. > >For example, the 1995 edition, still in use in many places, introduces a >decimal division problem as follows: "Will is saving his allowance to buy a >pair of Nike shoes that cost $68.25. If Will earns $3.25 per week, how many >weeks will Will need to save?" To the right of the text is a full-color >picture of a pair of Nikes. > >Another word problem, this one in the 1999 edition, gives a plug to Oreos, >made by Nabisco: "The best-selling packaged cookie in the world is the Oreo >cookie," it begins. "The diameter of an Oreo cookie is 1.75 inches. Express >the diameter of an Oreo cookie as a fraction in simplest form." > >A section on surface area in the same edition asks students to calculate >the surface area of a box of Cocoa Frosted Flakes, adding some gratuitous >information about when the cereal was introduced. Another page, titled >"School to Career," highlights Lands' End, the mail-order apparel company. >"Consumers can purchase unique clothing and accessories, and products for >the home," the section reads. > >Not everyone insists on keeping the schools pure of consumer product >information. But the math book goes too far, its critics say, in making >references to products and companies so specifically and without any real >context. > >"If you want children to deal with the real world, tell them to go out >there and compare the prices of Nike and Reebok and Adidas and a store >brand," suggested Charlotte Baecher, director of the Zillions Education >Center at Consumers Union, which tries to sharpen children's awareness >about advertising. "Then they will be getting a real lesson, instead of >just a reinforcement that Nike is the most popular brand." > >She added that the word problem featuring Nike was an effective >advertisement. "The whole point of advertising to kids is not about getting >any particular message out," she said. "It's about getting that brand name >to hit them in all sorts of places." > >One of the book's 12 authors, Patricia S. Wilson, an associate professor in >the mathematics education department at the University of Georgia, said the >brand names were scattered through the book almost unconsciously. > >"I don't recall ever actually discussing not using logos," she said. >"Certainly, we didn't discuss trying to use logos. It was more the examples >that people came up with." > >She said she knew of no company that had paid to be included in the book, >adding, "What would bother me is if I knew there was some kind of financial >agreement with somebody." > >One suggestion she did recall was using commercial logos as part of a >section on symmetry. "You're trying to get into what people are familiar >with, so they can see, hey, mathematics is in the world out there," she >said. Putting real-life situations into math problems for sixth graders, >she added, "is an important issue -- having products that are interesting >to that age group, to hook into where they are." > >In California, the attention drawn to the book by Stein prompted one >legislator to sponsor a bill to ban commercial references and logos in >school textbooks. In fact, California already has a state guideline >intended to prevent such references, but as Stein's experience shows, it >does not always work. > >Kerry Mazzoni, chairwoman of the California State Assembly's education >committee, introduced the bill in January. She said the state needed to be >careful about the messages it sent schoolchildren. "We as a state should >not be in a position of promoting one private-sector product over another," >she said. > >Allen said that McGraw-Hill, prompted by Ms. Mazzoni's proposal, was >"reviewing our policy with regard to screening out corporate logos." And he >noted that textbooks were developed and revised in consultation with school >committees that make suggestions about what should and should not be >included. > >In California, the textbook was reviewed for compliance with state >guidelines by a county education office, said Doug Stone, a spokesman for >the state Department of Education. Because McGraw-Hill originally offered >the book free to the state, he added, "it may not have received the >thorough scrutiny that it should have gone through." > >California has demanded that future editions purchased by its school >districts not carry brand names, Stone said, although he did not know when >those editions would be printed. > >Permission to use the names and logos of some of the companies mentioned in >the math textbook was sought and granted. Anna Rozevich, a spokeswoman for >McDonald's, said her company was approached, "but we did not pay to be in >the book." McDonald's gave permission for use of its name and logo, she >said, because using real products "seemed to have intrinsic educational >value for the children." > >But apparently no such permission was sought from several other companies >regarding their images or statements concerning their products, according >to their spokesmen. > >Ann Smith, a spokeswoman for Nabisco, said she could find no record of any >request. Asked why Oreos might have been chosen for the math book, rather >than Hydrox or other similar-looking brands, she said: "They probably >wanted to represent something the masses would have knowledge of. Oreo is >an American icon." > >That the companies did not pay anything for what would seem to be >invaluable exposure to impressionable young minds through a school textbook >is almost more troubling than if they had, some critics said. They say that >fact reveals much about how the battle to keep classrooms free of >commercialism has been lost. > >"It isn't implausible that a textbook writer simply chose this brand-name >product without even thinking about it," said Alex Molnar, who directs the >Center for the Study of Commercialism in Education at the University of >Wisconsin-Milwaukee, referring to the Oreo example. "But somebody ought to >catch it." > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 14:42:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01881 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:42:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08460; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:31:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08209 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max4-43.stc.net [208.210.132.171]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA29362 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:31:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36F3A0AE.938435CA@direct.ca> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:09:05 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: horn clay Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 286 >Dear Hugh, >Unlike 500, horn clay really does not dissolve very well in water (even during >a one hour stirring time). So, I think you have to dissolve it first in a bit >of water (warm) and then add it to the barrell. that is my observation. >Regards Ferdinand Ferdy, Seems to me like there should be no problem with horn clay dissolving. But then I took mine out of the horn and ground it (triturated) in a mortar and pestle after digging it up. Most of my horn clay experience has been with putting horn clay reagents in cosmic pipes. Lorraine and I have done both our pipes personally and I could feel the change very clearly, so could she. When we changed the reagents at our kitchen garden pipe for the farm it caught us both by surprise.We expectred some change, but the "whoosh" practically took our breath away, the effect was so strong. It was not electric or shocking or anything like that, but a strong current that particularly was felt in the heart. This was after the wintertime horn clay went in. The wintertime horn clay reagent was made by sending a sample of Greg Willis' wintertime horn clay to England for geometric cards to be made. Lorraine got the card back and used that in her Malcolm Rae Potentizer to make horn clay on a vial of milk sugar tablets. I think the potency she used in our pipe was 4x. It has changed the energy around here very noticeably, and I like it. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." --Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 14:48:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02003 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:48:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09010; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:37:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheddar.direct.ca (cheddar.direct.ca [199.60.229.16]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08703 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:33:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0210.direct.ca ([204.244.83.26] helo=direct.ca) by cheddar.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #20) id 10Oo1H-00061G-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:36:24 -0800 Message-ID: <36F547EF.DEA3D228@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:26:39 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BD No-till/Preps radiating References: <19990315220048.11514.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> <36F33D0B.87EA61BF@cyberhighway.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 287 To which I must reply: I worked with vials too and the difference of the compost is eye popping. Vial treatment simply (at this point) does not create as thoroughly decomposed compost as the one that has received the preparations directly. Incidentally, I really have a problem with 'inserting' 507 (Valerian) which is supposed to build the skin. I think many questions will have to be discussed and tested before this method can become a practically applied one. My observations have shown the following: The 'radiation' of each preparation does stay in one place for half a year. Whereas when you insert the preps, the radiation appears to melt into each other and an overall picture does arise (like the wings of a butterfly). With vials inserted, you have at least five distinguished dots and Valerian does not really show. Regards Ferdinand Pam DeTray wrote: > Hugh Lovel wrote: > > > For example, Harvey Lisle realized > > after nearly thirty years that if he put his preps in his compost pile in > > little vials they wouldn't be digested by the pile and would work as well > > at the end as at the beginning--and then he could put these same preps in > > his new pile! Steiner drew an illustration (in the second discussion, page > > 110, AGRICULTURE) of how the preps radiate their influences through the > > pile, so Harvey tried his idea and it worked. In fact it is the most > > workable method I've seen. It both works better and is more economical. > > Oh, Hugh, please expand on this. I've read it and thought about it, and > I still don't quite get it. If the preps radiate their influences > through the pile, does that not expend those forces? If not, then why do > we need to keep them in peat moss until we use them? > > Pam DeTray > psdetray@cyberhighway.net -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 14:51:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02313 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:51:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09324; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:40:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheddar.direct.ca (cheddar.direct.ca [199.60.229.16]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09244 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:39:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0210.direct.ca ([204.244.83.26] helo=direct.ca) by cheddar.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #20) id 10Oo6o-0006HP-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:42:07 -0800 Message-ID: <36F54944.56472E81@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:32:21 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Ferd's teeth post References: <36F4FB7A.2949EBA3@cyberhighway.net> <36F50971.57E795E1@digisys.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 288 Dear Pat, During the work with my son I was instructed to use the 'O' - and say it aloud - embracing him into this 'O' and he did the same, embracing me. The 'T' (moving your hands to the head and - difficult to describe on the monitor - set them on the very centre of your head) saying 't' was another movement. Sounds were , indeed, involved in this exercise, however, we both were instructed to move towards each other and away from each other focusing and the approach and the withdrawal. The sound 'M' with the movement 'M' was indicated as well. Since this exercise was done some 14 years ago, I am not 100% sure which followed which one. I will discuss it with my son to be more clear on this, however, he does not live around the corner and it may take a while. Regards Ferdinand "P. Hironimus" wrote: > Ferdinand, > > The Dictionary says eurythmy is "a system of harmonious body movement to the rhythm of spoken words." > Could you give us an example please. > > Pat Hironimus -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 14:56:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02373 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:56:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09969; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from acc.haverford.edu (acc.haverford.edu [165.82.1.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09681 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:43:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [165.82.19.116] (s116.magill.haverford.edu [165.82.19.116]) by acc.haverford.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA05580 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:45:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:49:52 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Bruce Bumbarger Subject: new Demeter website address Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 289 I received word of this and thought others might find it useful. http://www.demeter-usa.org Bruce From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 15:00:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA02414 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:00:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10312; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:49:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10204 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:48:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d145.infoserve.net [199.175.157.145]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA14987 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:53:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002501be73d4$39a92540$919dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: OFF:Math Textbook Salted With Brand Names Raises New Alarm (NYTIMes articletoday) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:24:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 290 Dear Jane and other concerned about ads. in schools, That sort of idea has been catching on here too in Vancouver Schools. They are very strapped for operating funds, so they have turned to corporate sponsors to help with the shortfalls. In one case I know of, the companies can put their logos (specified to a small size (%) on the jerseys of hockey team uniforms). In another case, the school only sells pepsi in their machines because Pepsi helped out with the School District financially. Perhaps, ads. in text books goes too far, but, the operating funds have to come from somewhere if gov't can't or won't provide adequate funding. Otherwise, it will end up like in Waldorf School where they fund-raise for everything over and on top of the school fees almost every waking minute. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 10:55 AM Subject: OFF:Math Textbook Salted With Brand Names Raises New Alarm (NYTIMes articletoday) >Math Textbook Salted With Brand Names Raises New Alarm (from the New York >Times) >By CONSTANCE L. HAYS > >Joe Stein got a big surprise last fall when his 11-year-old son Noah asked >him for help with homework. There on the page of Noah's sixth-grade math >textbook was "what looked like an ad for a chain electronics store," said >Stein. Going through the rest of the book, Stein discovered references to a >wide array of brand-name consumer products, from Nike and Gatorade to >Disneyland and Topps baseball cards, many of which appeared in >illustrations as well. And that made him angry. > >"He has to use this textbook, and he has to do the work that is intertwined >with these advertisements," said Stein, whose son attends middle school in >Albany, Calif., north of Berkeley. "I found it offensive that the lesson he >was learning was about commercialism and how even the school district and >other public forums weren't free from this sort of thing. I also wondered >who was getting paid for this. I assumed that textbooks wouldn't put this >free of charge in the text." > >The textbook, "Mathematics: Applications and Connections," published by >McGraw-Hill Inc. in 1995 and revised this year, is used in schools in about >15 states, including California and Texas, and has been approved for use in >New York City. > >But a spokesman for McGraw-Hill said the publisher received no payments >from companies whose products appear in the book. "We have no commercial or >promotional arrangements to use particular brands," said the spokesman, >Neal Allen. One of the book's authors said that the well-known products >were included simply to make the math problems more relevant to sixth >graders. > >Yet critics contend that the textbook amounts to a collection of >advertisements that, especially because they appear in a book used in the >classroom, press specific consumer products onto unsuspecting >schoolchildren. The blizzard of name-dropping and product images, along >with almost reverential descriptions of the companies, can only make >children more brand-conscious, they say. > >"This looks like product placement, as they do in the movies," said David >Walsh, director of the National Institute on Media and the Family, based in >Minneapolis, which studies the effect of advertising on families. "The >effect is the same. It gets at what I call the golden rule of influence, >which is when the person being influenced doesn't even know it." > >Stein, a lawyer for the federal government in San Francisco, complained >about the 1995 edition of the textbook. The 1999 version remains drenched >with product shots and trivia about everything from Barbie dolls (Mattel), >Cocoa Frosted Flakes (Kellogg), Sony Play Stations, Spalding basketballs, >characters and entertainment sites owned by Disney and Warner Bros. and >fast-food fare from Burger King and McDonald's. > >Those who oppose salting a textbook with brand names say it is the most >egregious example of advertising's steady march through public education. > >"This is the first time we've seen advertising in state-subsidized >textbooks," said Andrew Hagelshaw, senior program director at the Center >for Commercial-Free Public Education in Oakland, Calif. Noting that >taxpayer dollars paid for textbooks that school districts bought from >McGraw-Hill, he added, "It crosses a line that hasn't been crossed before." > > >He and others trace the trend of school acceptance of advertising to 1989, >when thousands of schools began signing up for free televisions offered by >Channel One. In return they had to agree to show their pupils >current-affairs programming that included commercials from many consumer >product companies eager to pitch their wares to children. > >School districts are seen as prime targets by computer software publishers, >fast-food chains, soft-drink bottlers and other corporations, which believe >that brand loyalty begins at an early age. Some offer schools lucrative >contracts intended to promote their products and keep their competitors >out. > >The McGraw-Hill textbook is intended to turn word problems into real-life >situations to better teach the principles of sixth-grade math. > >For example, the 1995 edition, still in use in many places, introduces a >decimal division problem as follows: "Will is saving his allowance to buy a >pair of Nike shoes that cost $68.25. If Will earns $3.25 per week, how many >weeks will Will need to save?" To the right of the text is a full-color >picture of a pair of Nikes. > >Another word problem, this one in the 1999 edition, gives a plug to Oreos, >made by Nabisco: "The best-selling packaged cookie in the world is the Oreo >cookie," it begins. "The diameter of an Oreo cookie is 1.75 inches. Express >the diameter of an Oreo cookie as a fraction in simplest form." > >A section on surface area in the same edition asks students to calculate >the surface area of a box of Cocoa Frosted Flakes, adding some gratuitous >information about when the cereal was introduced. Another page, titled >"School to Career," highlights Lands' End, the mail-order apparel company. >"Consumers can purchase unique clothing and accessories, and products for >the home," the section reads. > >Not everyone insists on keeping the schools pure of consumer product >information. But the math book goes too far, its critics say, in making >references to products and companies so specifically and without any real >context. > >"If you want children to deal with the real world, tell them to go out >there and compare the prices of Nike and Reebok and Adidas and a store >brand," suggested Charlotte Baecher, director of the Zillions Education >Center at Consumers Union, which tries to sharpen children's awareness >about advertising. "Then they will be getting a real lesson, instead of >just a reinforcement that Nike is the most popular brand." > >She added that the word problem featuring Nike was an effective >advertisement. "The whole point of advertising to kids is not about getting >any particular message out," she said. "It's about getting that brand name >to hit them in all sorts of places." > >One of the book's 12 authors, Patricia S. Wilson, an associate professor in >the mathematics education department at the University of Georgia, said the >brand names were scattered through the book almost unconsciously. > >"I don't recall ever actually discussing not using logos," she said. >"Certainly, we didn't discuss trying to use logos. It was more the examples >that people came up with." > >She said she knew of no company that had paid to be included in the book, >adding, "What would bother me is if I knew there was some kind of financial >agreement with somebody." > >One suggestion she did recall was using commercial logos as part of a >section on symmetry. "You're trying to get into what people are familiar >with, so they can see, hey, mathematics is in the world out there," she >said. Putting real-life situations into math problems for sixth graders, >she added, "is an important issue -- having products that are interesting >to that age group, to hook into where they are." > >In California, the attention drawn to the book by Stein prompted one >legislator to sponsor a bill to ban commercial references and logos in >school textbooks. In fact, California already has a state guideline >intended to prevent such references, but as Stein's experience shows, it >does not always work. > >Kerry Mazzoni, chairwoman of the California State Assembly's education >committee, introduced the bill in January. She said the state needed to be >careful about the messages it sent schoolchildren. "We as a state should >not be in a position of promoting one private-sector product over another," >she said. > >Allen said that McGraw-Hill, prompted by Ms. Mazzoni's proposal, was >"reviewing our policy with regard to screening out corporate logos." And he >noted that textbooks were developed and revised in consultation with school >committees that make suggestions about what should and should not be >included. > >In California, the textbook was reviewed for compliance with state >guidelines by a county education office, said Doug Stone, a spokesman for >the state Department of Education. Because McGraw-Hill originally offered >the book free to the state, he added, "it may not have received the >thorough scrutiny that it should have gone through." > >California has demanded that future editions purchased by its school >districts not carry brand names, Stone said, although he did not know when >those editions would be printed. > >Permission to use the names and logos of some of the companies mentioned in >the math textbook was sought and granted. Anna Rozevich, a spokeswoman for >McDonald's, said her company was approached, "but we did not pay to be in >the book." McDonald's gave permission for use of its name and logo, she >said, because using real products "seemed to have intrinsic educational >value for the children." > >But apparently no such permission was sought from several other companies >regarding their images or statements concerning their products, according >to their spokesmen. > >Ann Smith, a spokeswoman for Nabisco, said she could find no record of any >request. Asked why Oreos might have been chosen for the math book, rather >than Hydrox or other similar-looking brands, she said: "They probably >wanted to represent something the masses would have knowledge of. Oreo is >an American icon." > >That the companies did not pay anything for what would seem to be >invaluable exposure to impressionable young minds through a school textbook >is almost more troubling than if they had, some critics said. They say that >fact reveals much about how the battle to keep classrooms free of >commercialism has been lost. > >"It isn't implausible that a textbook writer simply chose this brand-name >product without even thinking about it," said Alex Molnar, who directs the >Center for the Study of Commercialism in Education at the University of >Wisconsin-Milwaukee, referring to the Oreo example. "But somebody ought to >catch it." > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 15:00:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA02426 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:00:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10354; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:49:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10209 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:48:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d145.infoserve.net [199.175.157.145]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA14995 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:54:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002601be73d4$3c37bf60$919dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: exporting BD produce to Vancouver/Pro-Organics Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:51:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01BE7391.16B40020" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 291 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BE7391.16B40020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are several delivery companies now operating in Vancouver eg. Organics to You, Organics to Go, Go Organics. Then, there is Pro Organics However, there is one I like best because it opens its warehouse on = Sat. mornings, so anybody can go there, even if they are not on the = weekly/biweekly delivery roster. Their prices are very reasonable. I picked up their newsletter where they mentioned that they had open = house in some of their suppliers from N. California. Perhaps, this would = be time that BD growers could aquaint them with BD. The lower Can$ has = its advantages and NAFTA helps as well. So, here are their particulars and I'll let you guys take it from there: Pro Oganics Marketing Inc. 3454 Lougheed Hwy. Vancouver, BC V5M 2A4 604-254-6549 1-800-461-1122 fax: 604-253-0439 prosales@proorganics.com Pro Organics Marketing (East) Inc. Unit #3-5 Bldg. , #709 433 Horner AVe. Toronto, ON, V8W 4Y4 ccottril@prooganics.com ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BE7391.16B40020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There are several delivery companies = now=20 operating in Vancouver
eg. Organics to You, Organics to Go, = Go=20 Organics.
Then, there is Pro = Organics
  However, there is one I like = best because=20 it opens its warehouse on Sat. mornings, so anybody can go there, even = if they=20 are not on the weekly/biweekly delivery roster.  Their prices are = very=20 reasonable.
 
   I picked up their = newsletter where=20 they mentioned that they had open house in some of their suppliers from = N.=20 California. Perhaps, this would be time that BD growers could aquaint = them with=20 BD.  The lower Can$ has its advantages and NAFTA helps as=20 well.
 
So, here are their particulars and I'll let you guys = take it=20 from there:
 
Pro Oganics Marketing Inc.
3454 Lougheed Hwy.
Vancouver, BC V5M 2A4
604-254-6549
1-800-461-1122
fax: 604-253-0439
prosales@proorganics.com
 
Pro Organics Marketing (East) = Inc.
Unit #3-5 = Bldg. ,=20 #709
433 Horner AVe.
Toronto, ON, V8W 4Y4
ccottril@prooganics.com
 
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BE7391.16B40020-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 15:00:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA02466 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10403; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:49:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10216 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:48:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0210.direct.ca ([204.244.83.26] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10OoFd-0004xw-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:51:13 -0800 Message-ID: <36F54B4D.B0FC0A7B@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:41:02 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives References: <19990321185737.1484.rocketmail@send202.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 292 Dear Bruce, What a marvellous post. Many thanks! Your prayers do not only change the food for you but will reach the plant, the animal and the soil (as well as the people who have worked with) as well. Regards Ferdinand bruce ritchie wrote: > To all, > when I think about the compromises regarding what we eat, I > know that we will all once in a while eat food not energized the way > it should be. That's why I have begun to thing twice about the > importance of praying over our food before we touch it. I know it's > only a start, but I think it's a good start! > bruce ritchie > > - > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 15:19:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA02679 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:19:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12043; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:08:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11745 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:05:10 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA23741 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:07:24 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:07:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md17-27.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.155) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma023730; Sun Mar 21 14:07:05 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <199932115857141@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives re: the public X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 293 >So, here's what I'm trying to say. If even in a forum such as this, where >indeed there has been much talk over the years of a spiritual nature but >that 'spiritual sense' is still NOT the main kind of intelligence being >applied to growing food, how can we expect a mass population, who perhaps >is NOT inclined to any spiritual practice, to have any kind of spiritual >take on the mad technologists rush to claim the secret powers of nature as >their own? > >Best Regards and a Blessed & Happy Spring to you all, >Jane Sherry > > > I have gone in to a very dark place lately, literally hurting over the feeling that "the masses," however much they do or don't know about what's really going on, are more or less not gonna "get it" until catastrophe hits. Re: "sprituality," there are many religeous leaders who have open opposed GMOs to the makers and the gov't. The challenge to the BDers is to connect with those persons and strengthen our forces, as well as sharing and enriching our perspectives. Each of those religeous leaders has a congregation to share this with, and each person in the congregation can/should share the knowledge with a friend who has no religion/spirituality, and thus the ripples spread. Ironically, what is just as discouraging as an uninformed public is the segment of the public that is informed just talking amongst themselves... i.e. let's hit the streets folks, dropping the BD or whatever else you define yourself by and dialog with your earthly sisters and brothers. If nothing else, you can tell them GMOs have been proven to cause cancer in lab rats. "Spiritual" doesn't even have to be brought up, not at first anyway. "Reaching out" means honoring where a person's awareness is, and inspiring them from within their perspectives before turning them on to a new one. In faith of our ability to heal this world, Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? Food is power. Where is yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 15:27:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA02744 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12849; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:16:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12559 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:13:44 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA18838 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:16:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:16:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md17-27.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.155) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma018828; Sun Mar 21 14:15:44 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <199932115173616334@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Evil Empire X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 294 Remember, ALOT of land grant universities are being funnelled money to do said GMO research, pass the info to Monsanto and the like, who then refine and patent it. It is, in part, this "R & D" money they are eager to get back, aside from becoming fithy rich etc. Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? Food is power. Where is yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 15:53:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA03101 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:53:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16319; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:41:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16009 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:39:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d148.infoserve.net [199.175.157.148]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA18573 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:44:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002a01be73db$594e7a60$949dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: exporting BD produce to Vancouver/Pro-Organics/website added! Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:40:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE7398.06641C80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 295 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE7398.06641C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Michael Roboz To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 11:55 AM Subject: exporting BD produce to Vancouver/Pro-Organics =20 =20 There are several delivery companies now operating in Vancouver eg. Organics to You, Organics to Go, Go Organics. Then, there is Pro Organics However, there is one I like best because it opens its warehouse = on Sat. mornings, so anybody can go there, even if they are not on the = weekly/biweekly delivery roster. Their prices are very reasonable. =20 I picked up their newsletter where they mentioned that they had = open house in some of their suppliers from N. California. Perhaps, this = would be time that BD growers could aquaint them with BD. The lower = Can$ has its advantages and NAFTA helps as well. =20 So, here are their particulars and I'll let you guys take it from = there: =20 Pro Oganics Marketing Inc. 3454 Lougheed Hwy. Vancouver, BC V5M 2A4 604-254-6549 1-800-461-1122 fax: 604-253-0439 prosales@proorganics.com www.proorganics.com=20 =20 Pro Organics Marketing (East) Inc. Unit #3-5 Bldg. , #709 433 Horner AVe. Toronto, ON, V8W 4Y4 ccottril@prooganics.com =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE7398.06641C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Michael Roboz <mroboz@infoserve.net>
T= o:=20 bdnow@envirolink.org = <bdnow@envirolink.org>
D= ate:=20 Sunday, March 21, 1999 11:55 AM
Subject: exporting BD = produce=20 to Vancouver/Pro-Organics

There are several delivery = companies now=20 operating in Vancouver
eg. Organics to You, Organics to = Go, Go=20 Organics.
Then, there is Pro = Organics
  However, there is one I = like best=20 because it opens its warehouse on Sat. mornings, so anybody can go = there,=20 even if they are not on the weekly/biweekly delivery roster.  = Their=20 prices are very reasonable.
 
   I picked up their = newsletter=20 where they mentioned that they had open house in some of their = suppliers=20 from N. California. Perhaps, this would be time that BD growers = could=20 aquaint them with BD.  The lower Can$ has its advantages and = NAFTA=20 helps as well.
 
So, here are their particulars and I'll let you = guys take=20 it from there:
 
Pro Oganics Marketing Inc.
3454 Lougheed Hwy.
Vancouver, BC V5M 2A4
604-254-6549
1-800-461-1122
fax: 604-253-0439
prosales@proorganics.com
www.proorganics.com <= /DIV>
 
Pro Organics Marketing (East)=20 Inc.
Unit #3-5 = Bldg. ,=20 #709
433 Horner AVe.
Toronto, ON, V8W 4Y4
ccottril@prooganics.com
 
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE7398.06641C80-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 16:13:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA03345 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:13:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18176; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:55:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA17836 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:53:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 30871 invoked from network); 21 Mar 1999 13:56:12 -0700 Received: from ts2-20.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO cyberhighway.net) (209.161.18.171) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 21 Mar 1999 13:56:12 -0700 Message-ID: <36F55CF1.899A1CE8@cyberhighway.net> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:56:19 -0700 From: Pam DeTray Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: White Moon Dancing X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BD No-till/Preps radiating References: <19990315220048.11514.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> <36F33D0B.87EA61BF@cyberhighway.net> <36F547EF.DEA3D228@direct.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 296 It must truly be a matter of each of us learning to see for ourselves, then collating and comparing our discoveries to arrive at the spiritual science of it. Perhaps in the cool moist northwest it's one way, in my arid cold and hot climate another, and in Georgia's warmth yet another. Each of us needs to learn what our land requires of us, then go from there. One of the four piles we inoculated last fall, before I knew about not splitting a set of preps, was done with vials. I need to get out to visit these, and will report back on any differences I see. Pam Ferdinand Vondruska wrote: > > To which I must reply: > > I worked with vials too and the difference of the compost is eye popping. Vial > treatment simply (at this point) does not create as thoroughly decomposed > compost as the one that has received the preparations directly. Incidentally, I > really have a problem with 'inserting' 507 (Valerian) which is supposed to build > the skin. > > I think many questions will have to be discussed and tested before this method > can become a practically applied one. > > My observations have shown the following: The 'radiation' of each preparation > does stay in one place for half a year. Whereas when you insert the preps, the > radiation appears to melt into each other and an overall picture does arise > (like the wings of a butterfly). With vials inserted, you have at least five > distinguished dots and Valerian does not really show. > > Regards Ferdinand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 19:31:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA05338 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:31:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09940; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09612 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:13:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from bio (kmidc67-81.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.81]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA23144 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:16:12 +1000 Message-ID: <005e01be73f9$164abbc0$51431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Spring Equinox Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:48:12 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 297 We on the other side of the world in the Southern Hemisphere are now experiencing our lovely Autumn days, our trees are just getting tipped with red and gold, the grass is slowing it's growth (thank God), the winter veggies are going in the ground and so are the green manure crops as the zucchini and tomatoes finish their run, and the pumpkins are drying out and becoming golden. Equal days of light and dark, awaiting the first real chill yet, so we can start our winter fire routine. Time to put our preparations down, time to start putting out our Prep 500, and time for our harvest festivals. Somedays our skies are blue and clear with puffy white clouds, and then we are still having our dark stormy weather with loud thunderstorms and lightening, sometimes even floods, as this has been a very wet and cooler summer. I love this slide into our inner time, when we spend so much more time indoors, around the fire and can start our winter activities of spinning and knitting while cooking soups over the fire. I am looking forward to doing my inner work as we walk into our inner spiral and having a rest before the next frenetic activity of spring and summer that you are now coming to. Love to all from the Land Down Under! Cheryl Kemp Education & Advisory Coordinator Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 -----Original Message----- From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, 20 March 1999 12:42 am Subject: Re: Spring Equinox >Signs of Spring in NYC: > >Summer Growth all through December >Roses in full bloom on Broadway by (Winter) Solstice >January, February warm and wind storms >Winter blooming witch hazel met >Hellebores, dewdrops and crocus in bloom >a full two weeks ago or more. >Saw/Heard my first cardinals today >The Big Park should really be called Bird Central. > >Sky luminous blue at dawn >Ochre wands brightening to yellow on the willows >Ground only froze two weeks ago when winter >finally arrived with freezing cold, wind and snow >covering exuberant hellebores below. >And now they're fully a foot high. (Flowers, not snow!) > >To live in NYC and have birdsong greet you in the morning >is truly a sign of spring, as are the long >awaited sight of farmers returning to the street >to sell their greenhouse greens, their end of winter roots >and harbor the promise of summer. >I also know it's spring when the NYTimes foolish food writers >talk of dandelion greens, fiddle head ferns and nettles >yes "fresh" nettles "imported" from the northwest coast! >Only in NY folks! would people pay 10$ a pound!!!!! for >imported nettles from 3000 miles away! >Never suspecting that they may hide in their own back yards! > >Maybe you bd folks w/csa's or access to shipping or >local NYC markets might want an early source of income? > >Happy Spring and may the gentle breeze blow! > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 20:26:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA05792 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:26:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15838; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:12:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15404 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:09:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.17]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:14:07 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:12:36 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Safe Seed Sources Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 298 They're on the list at (Allan's) Bd-Now website: (http://www.igg.com/bdnow/seedlist.html). Glad to hear you're the one providing those Iroquois/6 Nations bean seeds! It is one of the many wonderful beans they offer on my list! They also have a wonderful catalogue, chock full of useful info. Best, Jane Sherry It seems few people know of, or at least mention, Abundant Life Seed Foundation, a non-profit aimed towards preserving OP and heirlooms, particularly rare and endangered ones. Too often I see seed saving books that don't mention them and their wonderful efforts. I grow out the rare Iroquois/6 Nations bean for them. Moreover, I bought my first Stella Natura from them this year. Abundant Life Seed Foundation P.O. Box 772 Port Towsend, WA 98368 360.385.5660 fax 360.385.7455 Happy Gardening, Paco aka John E. Verin BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 21:59:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06628 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:59:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24700; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:46:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com [207.46.181.18]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24431 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:44:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer - 208.255.72.227 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 18:46:46 -0800 Message-ID: <000801be740d$d85b1fc0$e348ffd0@oemcomputer> From: "Dr. Andrew Lorand" To: Subject: Re: biodynamic viticulture Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 18:44:00 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 299 Dear Hilary, I'd be glad to speak with you (via email) on these and other related biodynamic viticulture issues. I am the coordinator of the ecological agriculture program at Santa Rosa Junior College, where I teach a whole host of classes including organic viticulture. We have a 365 acre college farm for which I am also partially responsible. We have 53 acres of award winning grapes and 10.5 are now in conversion to organic certification. I am also a biodynamic consultant with 25 years experience. Formerly the Director of the Biodynamic Training Program in Kimberton, PA, I was trained initially in Switzerland as a farm manager and later worked 8 years as a full time farmer both in Europe and here in the States. Very busy this week (as usual) but I would be glad to make some email time. Tonight, I am swamped and I will be the next couple of days too, but please write me your questions and I'll make every attempt to give you whatever response I can in a timely manner, For now, all the best, Andrew Andrew Christopher Lorand, PhD agdoc@msn.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 22:04:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA06688 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:04:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25474; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:52:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from sarnia.xcelco.on.ca (sar-alpha.xcelco.on.ca [209.167.188.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA25015 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:49:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from haggerty (modem-134.xcelco.on.ca [205.206.216.134]) by sarnia.xcelco.on.ca (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id CAA07673 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 02:51:01 GMT From: "Ken, Jean Huffman" To: Subject: Re: what's going on? Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:50:49 -0800 Message-ID: <01be7427$f110a8e0$86d8cecd@haggerty> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 300 I have a happier perspective of "What's going on". I believe that what we are seeing now is the last vestiges of adolescence of the human race as a species. Your description was completely accurate as to the attitude of humankind up until now. we are about to achieve a gloal community and a world wide peace which will usher in the "most great peace". If you wish to discuss this in more depth, contact me privately and I'd be delighted to share more insight. Jean From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 22:22:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07123 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:22:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA27958; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:10:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27880 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:10:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.114] (pm3shep3-163-147.intrepid.net [209.190.163.147]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA30993 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:12:54 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:15:04 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: OFF: Request from Russia: HELP!!! Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 301 Hallo My name is Alexander,I Live and work in Russia. Five years ago I opened my own business.The main purpose of my buisness is rendering charity assistance for social unprotected sections of population. In 1994 I created a bakery production. The most part of products passed to children`s homes,asylums for aged people, as a charitable purpose. In the course of some years my firm took active part in program off assistance for pensioners in Russia in cooperation with International Saving Army. Since 1996 in cooperation with municipality we put into operation program of distribution humanitarian help and second hend goods among social unprotected sections of population. But, unfortunately,in August 1998 crisis came. It strongly undermine the economy. Many enterprises was closed down activities. Today situation is thraten wrecking of the program of charity assistance for social unprotected section of population. And it can make this program full stop. Dear Frend, I will bi viry grateful for any help you may be able to give. To us it is necessary:FINANCIAL MEANS,HUMANITARIUM HELP(FOOD PRODUCTS,CLOTHES,TOYS FOR CHILDREN ETC.) Sincerely yours Alexander Sesin ____________________________________________________________________ mine email: amritas@mail.ru post address :Russia, Moskow,109388,30-2 Polbina Str.,"Amrita" Ltd. Tel/Fax +7(095)353-0003 ________________________ bank intermediary: BARCLAYS BANK PLC,LONDON,ENGLAND number accounts mine bank in BARCLAYS BANK: PLC-68866399 bic code mine bank in to system S.W.I.F.T. : SABRRUMM 100 mine bank: SAVINGS BANK OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION (MOSKOW SVAVINGS BANK) branch: Lublinskoye BRANCH,7977/01208 MOSKOW, RUSSIA acc. N 42301.840.6.3825.0800296 Sesin Alexandr Gurianova str.57/2-268,Moskow,109388,Russia =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 22:59:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07593 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:59:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01998; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:46:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01666 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:44:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.32] (pm3shep1-163-32.intrepid.net [209.190.163.32]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03988 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:47:13 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:49:40 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: OFF: Quote of the Day Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 302 "Equating permaculture with gardening is like equating a human with his/her stomach. " From: Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 21 23:38:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08112 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:38:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA07023; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:25:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA06749 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:23:35 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA00579; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:25:17 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:25:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md14-54.ix.netcom.com(199.182.66.54) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma000566; Sun Mar 21 22:25:11 1999 To: haggerty@xcelco.on.ca To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <199932123274119169@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: more what's going on? X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 303 On 03/21/99 21:50:49 you wrote: > >I have a happier perspective of "What's going on". Glad you said that. Sometimes I need a reminder when I'm looking at what said "dark" energies too much. I believe that what we >are seeing now is the last vestiges of adolescence of the human race as a >species. I would clarify this to say the adolescence of Post-Pagan Western Culture, because MANY peoples have had and have today, incredible maturity and wisdom. Why have we chosen the immature route? If we've eaten of the Tree of Knowledge, why are we acting so clueless? Your description was completely accurate as to the attitude of >humankind up until now. Again, not all humankind is doing to Earth what we are. Moreover, many that do as we do is either via envy or coersion or force. I enjoy thinking of Earth as a cell. That kind of makes our behavior appear cancerous, doesn't it? "Our" includes you and me, not just "our" society. we are about to achieve a gloal community and a >world wide peace which will usher in the "most great peace". I do sense a major shift going on, and it feels really good! Also, I'm wary of the term "global community" when even among we hip, enlightened Earth stewards we have hard times communicating lovingly and honestly. Also also, I feel a grave need that we repair our community that is before, behind, left and right of us. "Global" concerns me when most "communities" in this nation do not provide for even a small portion of their needs. It's all imported (domestically & internationally) from places to which they have no connection except anonymous long-chained exchange of goods, from food to clothing, to shelter materials, to the people themselves! Further, if the "global community" is more of a spiritual nature, then ought not we be moving our material communities to be healthy, to compliment the spiritual activity? If you wish to >discuss this in more depth, contact me privately and I'd be delighted to >share more insight. Thanks for the invite. >Jean > > > Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? Food is power. Where is yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 00:20:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA08561 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:20:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA10632; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA09891 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:03:06 -0500 (EST) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hYPOa13433 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:05:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <17aa4659.36f5cf8a@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:05:14 EST To: BDnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: re: what's going on Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 304 Remember, all you enlightened folks out there, we are only as fast as the slowest. And I am the slowest. So have some heart and take into consideration that some may not be able to live up to your ideals. At least for the moment. And by all means continue to set an example but not in a holier than thou way. Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 00:26:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA08624 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:26:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA11110; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:14:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA10898 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:11:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0102.direct.ca ([204.244.83.2] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10Ox2p-0003KW-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:14:35 -0800 Message-ID: <36F5CD37.44FC8799@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:55:19 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Horn clay and clay soil References: <36F520A2.31DC@cwcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 305 Dear Tony, My ducking out has to do with sheer 'self defence' - the work load (perhaps also cop out, who knows) But the shades under my eyes reveal a bit of sleep deprevation. I love the list (perhaps too much) and at times get hooked, so to speak. I have to learn to concentrate - Andrew Lorand is a fine teacher of mine (I think he knows). All the best. Regards Ferdinand Tony Nelson-Smith wrote: > Thank you, Ferdy, for your comments. I realise that I have lived on a > clay soil all my life (born on London clay) so I'd not really know what > to measure my degree of melancholy against. Being on the spring line > under a hill, I feel pretty sad now, when I can see tufts of rushes > sprouting on my waterlogged lawn - but I know I'll feel happier in late > summer, when others are complaining about the drought. > Sorry to read that you're ducking out for a bit, I always look forward > to your wise words. Tony N-S. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 00:26:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA08625 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:26:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA11201; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:15:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheddar.direct.ca (cheddar.direct.ca [199.60.229.16]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11039 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:14:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0102.direct.ca ([204.244.83.2] helo=direct.ca) by cheddar.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #20) id 10Ox4g-0000WX-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:16:30 -0800 Message-ID: <36F5CDC1.49527561@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:57:37 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BD Discussion Group Bio-Dynamics Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 306 UNSUBSCRIBE NOW. (Spring work has started, half-man show must go on the road. Will be back when time gets a bit easier) -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 00:26:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA08644 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:26:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA11150; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:14:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA10948 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:12:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0102.direct.ca ([204.244.83.2] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10Ox3P-0003NI-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:15:11 -0800 Message-ID: <36F5CD5B.F9F254E0@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:55:55 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BD No-till Is Different (Long) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 307 Dear Hugh, The pig, according to my observation, is a 'human head' on four legs. The wisdom and intelligence that little animal displaces is incredible. Not only are pigs clean (they do not s'it into their nest) they really throw a pig out of the next if it craps into it. They help each other socially. If you mark the teat of a mother sow and the respective little pig, they will always go back to the same teat. Unruly behaviour is punished by bites or chasing them 'teenager'. Birthing is a family affair! They help each other. Food is OFTEN being shared, more often than not. Barking, warning is common and an enemy is tackled in a well organised group. The weak or sick is being helped and fed. I could go on for a long time. A pig is a partner for life and they would defend you IF you decide to share your life with them. They are as strong as dogs when it comes to it or stronger and they can be well trained. When we added pigs to our (former) farm, we felt that humor had arrived. You are ever so right with what they ingest. No wonder that their 'casting' is as close to a human's as can be. They must be thinking a lot.........! Regards Ferdinand PS Dr. STeiner is certainly of that opinion, and I, too. Hugh Lovel wrote: > >I just was looking at a paper where scientists looked at the effects of > >earthworm ingestion on pjosphate rack availability. They concluded that the > >effect, greater P availability, was due to the intimate incorporation of the > >the rock particles with the soil. They showed electron micrographs of the > >rock particles int0 the soil vs. passed throught he gut of the worm. The > >seived particles had air all around them, whereas the "wormed" particles were > >completely enveloped by highly organic soil goo. Biochemically this will coat > >the particles with soil bacteria an chelating organic acids to make available > >many mineral goodies. BUT, more interestingly, energetically I see the worm > >alchemy of uniting Positive and negative. Granite, basalt, rock phos, all > >paramagnetic, or positive, elements united with the diamagnetic, or negative, > >humus elements to make the soil hum with the elixir. Something that > >machanical mixing was not able to do, but rather left the two separate. But > >maybe I am just spewing. > > > >Chris Shade > > Chris > > Mechanical mixing may very well be counter productive. Ever watch how pigs > root? They have a keen sense of what minerals are in the soil, and they > ingest tasty minerals such as various rock powders, humates, gyp, rock > phos, wood ash, etc. by choice. The pig is just about the closest thing to > an earthworm on four legs. But the earthworm takes this business a good bit > farther. If you leave the material you're applying spread on the surface > they will come up at night and get it. Plant roots like earthworm tunnels, > just incidentally, and will get the minerals after the earthworms are > through. So incorporation may just make it more difficult for the earthworm > to ingest the material and that much slower for plant response. Certainly > on my hillside with all the finely chopped vegetation (earthworm food) > salted down with granite dust the following round of vegetation showed all > the signs of getting what was spread on the surface. Needless to say, > however, there was abundant earthworm activity. > > Best, > > Hugh Lovel > Blairsville, Georgia > > "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." > --Walter Russell -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 07:30:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA11646 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 07:30:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA06835; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 07:18:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA06760 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 07:17:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.12]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 07:21:38 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 07:20:12 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Monsanto Goes to Harvard Message-ID: <781B81601863863F8525673C0043BF17.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 308 Tuesday, March 23 4 pm Transgenic Crops, Small Farmers, Food Security, and Biosafety in Asia Robert Horsch, Sustainable Development Center, Monsanto Corporation Harvard, Coolidge Hall, Room 2 Anybody who goes please take notes and report back. Maybe somebody can ask why Monsanto shouldn't be sued into bankruptcy for destroying a common good through its program of breeding bacillus thuringensis resistant insects by genetic manipulation of plants. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 08:41:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA12488 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:41:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13138; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:30:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from halifax.chebucto.ns.ca (chebucto.ns.Ca [192.75.95.75]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12912 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:28:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from av204@localhost by halifax.chebucto.ns.ca id <33697-673>; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:30:45 -0400 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:30:45 -0400 (AST) Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Joan Macdonald To: biodynamics Subject: Re:OFF TOPIC Vacc. Info for Parents Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: av204@chebucto.ns.ca X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 309 Dear All; I know this topic may not really be biodynamically related, but in one way it is, those who have had multiple vaccinations, along with the foreign toxins introduced, also have had energy blockages set up... Biodynamically grown food is grown with subtle energies, and some people who eat the food, experience short term reactions/aggravations. Their energy is not able to flow through the meridians to the tissues,it is restricted and the energy has to find another avenue to reach the cells or energy deficient areas. Energy is really not a unitary, but rather a spectrum, like a rainbow. In a properly functioning body, the brain/mind is able to determine which energy is needed, and where it is needed in the body. The purpose of the energy flow, the meridians system, is to provide to each individual cell the information it needs to function properly. If the energy system is not functioning properly the energy-message destined for a specific cell may be garbled or lost. If this happens, then the cell must do the best it can on it's own, without its usual mechanism for control. Living beings, humanity included, have the ability to secure all the energy they need from both gross physical and subtle energy sources. We get gross physical energy from food, water and air. We take in subtle energy, chi, via the meridian system and sometimes there may be a short circuit, poor insulation, a blocked/broken wire. For those concerned about your children and vaccinations, I have a really good background article I would be willing to privately email to anyone interested. Thank you Jane for bringing up the topic of the subtle energies and good forces. Joan Macdonald Halifax, Nova Scotia email: av204@chebucto.ns.ca From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 09:23:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12957 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:22:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17719; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:09:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.156]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17653 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:09:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [151.196.125.137] (client-151-196-125-137.bellatlantic.net [151.196.125.137]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15301 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:11:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903221411.JAA15301@smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:14:08 -0500 Subject: Off: Congress + sustainable resolution From: "Steven McFadden" To: BD now Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3004935248_557654_MIME_Part" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 310 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3004935248_557654_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This resolution, soon to be introduced in Congress, may be of interest to readers of the BDNow list. Best, Steven ---------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Global Sustainable Development Resolution Author: Campaign for Labor Rights Date: 1999/03/16 Global Sustainable Development Resolution of 1999 [to be introduced soon in the House by Representative Bernie Sanders] The Congress of the United States hereby resolves: Section 1: Preamble Whereas a new global economy has emerged over the past 25 years; Whereas the global economy has had a profound and at times destructive impact on the majority of Americans and of people around the world; Whereas most people have had little say in designing or governing the global economy; Whereas the current structure of the global economy therefore violates the fundamental right of people to equality and self-determination as proclaimed in the US Declaration of Independence and the International Declaration of Human Rights; Whereas uncontrolled globalization threatens the very sustainability of local and global environments; Whereas the global economy has entered a crisis that threatens the economic security and well-being of people all over the world; Therefore be it resolved: that the people and government of the United States and of the other nations of the world initiate a process of establishing democratic control over the global economy. Section 2: Findings It is the finding of Congress that: 1. Experience has proved that unregulated economic globalization tends to generate the following deleterious consequences: Volatility. (a) Global financial deregulation has reduced barriers to the international flow of capital. More than $1.5 trillion now flow across international borders every day in the foreign currency market alone. This excess volume contributes to financial instability, and is too large for each nation to be able to intervene to restore monetary stability. The result is a world economy marked by dangerous and disruptive financial volatility. Race to the bottom. (b) Globalization promotes a destructive competition in which workers, communities, and entire countries are forced to cut labor, social, and environmental costs in order to attract mobile capital. When many countries do the same thing the result is a disastrous "race to the bottom." As each workforce, community, or country seeks to become more competitive by reducing its wages and social and environmental overheads, lower wages and reduced public spending result in less buying power. This leads to stagnation, recession, unemployment, and global economic crisis. Impoverishment (c) The past quarter-century of globalization has seen not a reduction but a vast increase in poverty. For example, i. Globally, unemployment is approaching one billion. ii. In the United States, real average wages were $9 per hour in 1973; twenty-five years later they were $8 per hour. The median family income was $1,000 less in 1996 than in 1989. The typical married-couple family worked 247 more hours per year in 1996 than in 1989-that is more than 6 weeks worth of additional work. Inequality. (d) Globalization has contributed to an enormous increase in the concentration of wealth and the growth of poverty both within countries and worldwide. 447 billionaires have wealth greater than the income of the bottom half of humanity. In the U.S., the richest man has wealth equal to that of the bottom 40 per cent of the American people. The total wealth of the world's three richest individuals is greater than the combined gross domestic product of the 48 poorest countries-a quarter of all the world's states. The world's 225 richest individuals, of whom 60 are Americans with total assets of $311 billion, have a combined wealth of over $1 trillion-equal to the annual income of the poorest 47% of the entire world's population. The downward pressures of globalization have been focused most intensively on discriminated-against groups that have the least power to resist, including women, racial and ethnic minorities, and indigenous peoples. Women have been the prime victims of exploitation in export industries and have suffered the brunt of cutbacks in public services and support for basic needs. Immigrants and racial and ethnic minorities in many parts of the world have not only been subject to exploitation, but have been abused as scapegoats for the economic troubles caused by corporate globalization. Indigenous people have had their traditional ways of life disrupted and their economic resources plundered by global corporations and governments doing their bidding. Degradation of Democracy. (e) Globalization has reduced the power of individuals and peoples to shape their destinies through participation in democratic processes. i. Of the 100 largest economies in the world, 51 today are corporations, not countries. Globalization has greatly increased the power of global corporations relative to local, state, and national governments. The ability of governments to pursue development, full employment, or other national economic goals has been undermined by the growing power of capital to relocate to other jurisdictions. ii. There are few international equivalents to the anti-trust, consumer protection, and other laws that provide a degree of corporate accountability at the national level. As a result, corporations are able to dictate policy to governments, backed by the threat that they will relocate. iii. Governmental authority has been undermined by trade agreements, such as NAFTA and the WTO, and by international financial institutions, such as the IMF and World Bank, which restrict the power of national, state, and local governments to govern their own economies. These institutions themselves are sorely lacking in democratic control and accountability. They are all too often themselves complicit in the denial of human rights. 2. The global economy has entered a crisis that threatens the well-being of the people of the United States and the world. a) President Clinton has called the current global crisis the worst in 50 years and "the most important subject now facing the world community." b) Growth of the global economy is at its lowest point in 30 years. c) The countries that were once the showcases for globalization are now in economic shambles. South Korea's economy has shrunk by 45% and Thailand's by 50%. Indonesia's has shrunk by nearly 80%, and gross domestic product per capita has fallen from $3500 to $750. d) The economic crisis that started in Asia is now ricocheting around the world. What has become a global crisis is now affecting trade, employment, capital markets, agriculture, and other aspects of life in the United States and around the world. 3. It is in the common interest of the people of the United States and of the people of the rest of the world to rectify these defects. Section 3: Policy Goals It is hereby declared to be the policy of the United States: 1. To reconstruct the global economy to realize the following goals: a) Democracy at every level from the local to the global. b) Human rights for all people. c) Environmental sustainability worldwide. d) Economic advancement of the most oppressed and exploited parts of the population, including women, immigrants, racial and ethnic minorities, and indigenous peoples. 2. To construct a multilevel global economy which strengthens the capacity of democratic governments at every level from local to global to expand the capacity of their people to meet their economic needs. a) Under the UN Charter on the Economic Rights and Duties of States, governments have the obligation to protect the human rights of their citizens. These include their labor, social, environmental, economic, and cultural rights. Governments have the right to pursue policies necessary to fulfill these rights. b) In a global economy, international coordination and international institutions are at times necessary in order to make it possible for local and national governments to effectively meet their obligations to their own people and exercise the rights necessary to do so. c) To the extent feasible, economic decision making should follow the subsidiarity principle, under which decision making should be exercised as close to the locus of the actual activity being decided as possible. 3. To reduce the threat of financial volatility and meltdown by: a) Encouraging capital controls to reduce the destabilizing impact of international financial speculation ("hot money") and to restore national monetary autonomy, including: i. National controls on capital inflow and/or outflow. ii. Levies on currency exchange transactions (commonly known as a "Tobin Tax" after James Tobin, Nobel economist) to reduce the volume of short-term transactions, restore, national monetary autonomy, and provide a resource pool for sustainable development and environmental protection. iii. Other forms of regulations on currency exchange rates and volumes. b) Forestalling competitive devaluations: help countries adjust to changing conditions without drastic devaluations and massive increases in exports. c) Supporting appropriate global demand: A major problem of the world economy is insufficient economic demand. This threatens a global depression. The maintenance of adequate demand worldwide requires cooperation of the major economic powers working in tandem to ensure global demand adequate to help all economies grow. Efforts to increase demand should focus primarily on increasing equity and sustainability by expanding the resources devoted to the global poor and the global environment. d) Making speculators pay for their losses: International bailouts have insulated large banks and investors from the consequences of their high-risk speculations. That encourages more such speculative ventures ("moral hazard"). The result is even more international volatility. When assistance is provided for economies in trouble, it must go to benefit the people, not to international investors who lured them into trouble in the first place. 4. To counter inequality, impoverishment, and the race to the bottom by: a) Protecting the global environment by encouraging sustainable development that enhances the environment as a long-term resource. b) Encouraging sustainable development by means of global, national, and local policies that: i. Ensure livable wages. ii. make credit available for small and medium-sized locally-owned businesses and farms. iii. pursue a progressive tax policy that reduces the burden on the poor. iv. Promote long-term investment rather than short-term foreign investment that just skims off speculative profits. v. Encourage spending on primary health care, basic education, and other social services that improve people's lives and provide the basis for long-term economic growth. vi. Empower people in local communities to use their resources to address their needs: International agreements should not interfere with the right of communities to set minimum standards and to pursue economic self-reliance. National and international policy should channel resources to locally controlled development. c) End global debt slavery: The debt of the poorest countries should be written off and other countries should be assisted to make sustainable development rather than debt repayment their first priority. d) Pursue cooperation among rich and poor countries to reduce world poverty: The current gap between the global rich and poor is unacceptable; it is unconscionable to act as if it can be a permanent feature of the global economy. e) Encourage people at the grassroots to organize themselves in strong and independent trade unions and other organizations to assure their participation in decisions impacting economic development and an equitable distribution of economic benefits. 5. To encourage democracy by: a) Using economic policy to support democracy and human rights: While humanitarian aid should be available to all in need, financial support should be provided only in ways that encourage democratization and popular participation and should not be used to perpetuate regimes that deny human rights. b) Democratizing the IMF, World Bank, other international financial institutions, and the G-7/8: It is unacceptable to assume that the rich countries of the world can monopolize decision-making regarding the global economy's future through dominant voting privileges at the International Financial Institutions and creation of major policy decisions through the G-7/8. Voting in international financial institutions must move toward the standard of equal representation for all the world's people. International economic policymaking must move from the "rich men's club" of the G-7/8 to a renewed North/South dialogue. c) Making international economic institutions transparent and accountable: The procedures, decisions, and programs of organizations like the World Bank, IMF, and WTO need to be open to public scrutiny. d) Letting those affected by international economic policies participate in making them: Instead of closed negotiations with top government and corporate officials, decisions about international economic agreements and loans should require participation by labor unions, environmental groups, women's organizations, development organizations, and other major sectors of civil society in each country. e) Encouraging governments at every level to establish sustainable development plans and provide international support for the implementation of such plans. f) Ending "crony capitalism" by reducing the domination of political systems and media by economic oligarchs and by increasing the capacity of people to organize themselves at the grassroots. Section 4: Policy Mandates I. Initiating National Dialogue 1. There is hereby established a U.S. Commission on the Global Economy to develop the broadest possible dialogue by the people of the United States among themselves and with the other peoples of the world regarding the future of the global economy. a) The purpose of the U.S. Commission on the Global Economy is to initiate a dialogue on the future of the global economy. b) The Commission shall: i. Hold hearings to investigate the effect of globalization on U.S. workers and industry and the environment. These hearings must include the full participation of civil society, including representatives from labor, women, minority, environmental, farm and small business groups. These results must be widely distributed and available for public comment. ii. Hold town meetings in major American cities to invite public participation in discussions. iii. Cooperate with similar commissions established by other countries and by the United Nations. iv. Report its findings and recommendations to Congress and the American people no later than one year after this Act is passed. II. Initiating Global Dialogue 1. The United States shall initiate the establishment of a United Nations Commission on the Global Economy. a) The purpose of the United Nations Commission on the Global Economy is to initiate a global dialogue on the future of the global economy. b) To indicate its ultimate accountability to all the world's people, the Commission will function under the auspices of the United Nations. c) The Commission will seek to revive the North-South Dialogue and thereby to reorient the global economy toward greater economic justice. d) The Commission will use and expand techniques developed over the past decade to include representatives of civil society and NGOs in UN conferences, including funding and support for civil society participation. e) Parallel national commissions will work with the Global Commission to develop the broadest possible dialogue regarding the future of the global economy. 2. The United Nations Commission on the Global Economy will also establish a Global Economy Truth Commission to provide citizens of the world with information needed to monitor the results, impacts, and failures of economic institutions and policy at every level. The Truth Commission's inquest will be provided the powers to investigate, publicize, and refer to other authorities abuses in the use of international funds and the powers of international financial institutions. III. Global Sustainable Development Agreement 1. The United Nations Commission on the Global Economy will initiate a series of Bretton Woods-type international conferences to establish new rules for the global economy. These conferences must include representatives not only of nation-states, bankers, and industry, but an equal number of citizen organizations from every country. Negotiations must be based on an open, inclusive, and democratic process. 2. These conferences shall make recommendations for and initiate negotiation of a Global Sustainable Development Agreement. The objective of the U.S. in that negotiation shall be to incorporate the principles, rules,and policies enunciated in this Act and establish the institutions described therein to implement them, as modified by the global dialogue described above. IV. Global Sustainable Development Financial Strategy 1. The United States shall enter into negotiations with other members of the United Nations to develop and implement a strategy to counter those aspects of the global financial system that make it more difficult for communities, regions, and countries to pursue sustainable development. 2. The purpose of this strategy shall be to restructure the international financial system to avoid global recessions, protect the environment, ensure full employment, reverse the polarization of wealth and poverty, and support the efforts of polities at all levels to mobilize and coordinate their economic resources. 3. To achieve these goals, the United States will work with other nations to: a) Encourage countries to pursue economic policies based on domestic economic growth and development, not domestic austerity in the interest of export-led growth. b) Encourage the G-7/8 countries to coordinate their economic policies to stimulate domestic demand and prevent global deflation. c) Help countries adjust currency exchange rates without competitive devaluations. d) Develop means for assuring global liquidity, such as an expansion of the system of Special Drawing Rights, in order to protect the global economy, especially poorer countries, from liquidity squeezes. e) Encourage a return to more stable exchange rates in order to achieve the original purposes of the Bretton Woods agreement. f) Reduce the flows of destabilizing short-term capital by the adoption of capital controls as necessary. g) Establish standards for and oversee the regulation of banks and all other financial institutions by national and international regulatory authorities. h) Encourage the shift of financial resources from speculation to useful, environmentally-positive, sustainable development; including targeted investment for small and medium size businesses, farmers, and community development. i) Pursue other measures to ensure global demand adequate to provide full employment and a rising standard of living. 4. The United States, in cooperation with other nations, shall establish levies on all foreign currency transactions ("Tobin Tax") and shall coordinate with them the mechanisms for implementing nationally adopted levies on foreign currency transactions. The purpose of these levies will be: a) To reduce the volume of destabilizing short-term cross-border financial flows. b) To restore national monetary autonomy over national currency. c) To provide pools of funds for investment in long-term environmentally and socially sustainable development in poor communities and countries. 5. The United States, in cooperation with other nations, shall establish one or more public international investment funds. The purpose of these funds shall be > a) to meet human and environmental needs and ensure adequate global demand by channeling funds into sustainable long-term investment. > b) to counter global economic cycles by appropriate expansion and contraction of fund activities. > 6. The United States, in cooperation with other nations, shall develop international institutions to perform functions of monetary regulation currently performed inadequately by national central banks. These may include: a) A system of internationally-coordinated minimum reserve requirements on the consolidated global balance sheets of all financial firms. b) Utilization of reserve requirements to counter cyclical variations in global growth rates. c) Coordinated efforts to reduce fluctuations in currency exchange rates through complementary national fiscal and monetary policies and international exchange rate agreements. V. Debt Reduction 1. The United States shall work with the G-7, the commercial banks, the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, regional development banks, and other international financial institutions to write off the debts of the most impoverished countries by the end of the year 2000. The final goal of all debt forgiveness initiatives will be to allow countries to pursue sustainable domestic development. a) The United States will cancel all amounts owed to the United States by the most impoverished countries. b) The United States shall instruct its representatives in the IMF, World Bank, and other international financial institutions to advocate full debt cancellation for the most impoverished countries and to participate in debt relief. Sources for debt relief may include previous IMF accounts, Special Drawing Authority (SDA), Enhanced Structural Adjustment Facility (ESAF) Reserve Account, lower collateral requirements, and gold. The IFI's shall provide one billion U.S. dollars of their own resources to support substantial debt relief for the highly indebted countries. c) Debt cancellation shall not depend on adherence to structural adjustment or similar programs. d) Countries receiving debt relief shall be encouraged to support investment in human development by allocating at least 20 percent of savings from such relief to basic social services, with appropriate input from civil society in developing basic service plans. e) No impoverished country shall be required to pay an amount exceeding 5 percent of its annual export earnings toward the servicing of foreign loans. f) No funds received for debt relief may be used to increase military spending. 2. The United States will cooperate with other nations to establish an insolvency ("bankruptcy") mechanism for highly indebted nations. a) The insolvency mechanism will draw on the experience of other bankruptcy procedures for governments, such as the municipal insolvency provisions of Chapter 9 of the U.S. bankruptcy law. b) The insolvency mechanisms will provide for the creation of arbitration panels. Creditors and debtors will nominate an equal number of persons to serve as arbiters, who will themselves elect one more arbiter; together they will form the arbitration panel. c) The arbitration panel will establish the debtor country's capacity to pay, taking into account necessary expenditures for social safety nets to protect a minimum of human dignity of the poor and the debtor's economic future. d) Those persons affected by the results of arbitration will have the right to be represented in the proceedings. e) When an arbitration panel determines a country to be insolvent and its debts to be unrepayable, it shall restructure debts based on debtors' ability to pay, such restructuring to apply equally to governmental, IFI, and private creditors. VI. Reform of International Financial Institutions The United States Congress establishes the following conditions for any U.S. funding of the World Bank, the IMF, and other International Financial Institutions (IFIs): 1. Labor conditions a) The IFIs shall ensure conformance with internationally recognized worker rights set forth in the relevant conventions of the ILO, including the right of freedom of association, the right to organize and bargain collectively, freedom from discrimination, a prohibition on the use of any form of forced or compulsory labor, the right to strike, and certain minimum labor standards that take into account differences in development levels among nations including a minimum age for the employment of children, acceptable conditions of work with respect to minimum wages, hours of work, and occupational safety and health in every program. This conformance will be a condition of approval and renewal for every loan. b) IFI mission teams shall include a representative from the ILO to take the lead in negotiating labor issues. c) Local labor unions shall participate in these negotiations. d) The outcome of these dialogues shall be reflected in all IFI documents. 2. Environmental conditions a) The IFIs shall establish a systematic process to review in advance, and take into account in policy formation, projected impacts of each lending agreement on ecological sustainability. b) The IFIs shall employ natural resource economists with expertise in environmental accounting measures to integrate such measures in its technical assistance. c) Environmental regulations shall not be weakened under any IFI program. d) Loan programs shall encourage environmental tax policies to protect the environment by correcting negative environmental market externalities and other market failures. e) All IFI lending shall aim to strengthen environmental laws and increase borrowing government's capacity for environmental management and enforcement. Lending must also incorporate the goals of shifting the portfolio and operations toward environmentally sustainable investments. f) No IFI project or policy shall run contrary to the purpose or policy of any multilateral environmental agreement. g) The World Bank shall: i. invest 20% of its total energy portfolio in alternative/renewable energy, demand side management and energy efficiency programs in 1999. These share of these programs in the total energy portfolio shall increase 10 percent per year thereafter [to a permanent total of X percent]. ii. reduce carbon emissions on its entire portfolio by 10% per year [to a permanent total of X percent]. iii. develop and implement an action plan for meeting the energy needs of the world's 2 billion rural poor. iv. shift its transportation portfolio from road and highway construction to traffic demand management, road safety, rail, public transportation, and projects which benefit non-motorized transport users, especially in the poorest segments of society. v. expand its investments in sustainable agriculture projects that emphasize farmer participation, ecological education, and training to reduce use of pesticides and other chemical inputs. vi. assist governments in developing integrated policy frameworks to support sustainable agriculture and local and national food security. vii. forest protection, conservation, and reforestation shall be the priority objective for forest sector loans. viii. fund projects that examine alternatives to wood and better efficiency in wood use. ix. increase investments for demand side management and water efficiency projects. h) The World Bank shall exclude from funding: i. Infrastructure or extractive projects in frontier or primary tropical, temperate or boreal forests. ii. Logging or other forest projects unless certified by an accredited international certification body, such as the Forest Stewardship Council. iii. Projects in or impacting areas listed on the United Nations List of National Parks and Protected Areas, or Nature Reserves/Wilderness Areas, National Parks, or National Monuments or proposed nature sites. iv. Projects that involuntarily resettle more than 500 people. v. Large dam projects that do not incorporate the recommendations of the forthcoming final report of the World Commission on dams. vi. Projects involving the manufacture of ozone-depleting substances, or use of persistent organic pollutants, or hazardous pesticides. i) The IMF's Articles of Agreement shall be amended to reflect adherence to and enforcement of environmental sustainability, including: i. The establishment of an IMF system of environmental reviews. ii. Preparation of environmental impact statements for each Fund lending agreement. iii Requirement that borrowing countries, at a minimum, maintain and enforce existing environmental regulations. iv. Requirement that environmental spending as a percentage of GDP shall not decrease under any Fund program. 3. Social conditions a) Credit policies shall not decrease the availability of credit for small and medium sized locally-owned businesses and farms. b) No IFI economic reform program shall ever result in decreased real per capita public spending on the part of the borrower government in the areas of primary health care, basic education, and other basic social services. c) The IFIs will not advocate user fees for basic health and education services in any loan program. d) The IFIs shall establish a systematic process to review in advance, and to take into account in policy formation, projected impacts of each lending agreement on public health and poverty, as well as the impact of such policies on vulnerable groups such as women and children. 4. Democracy and Human Rights a) An independent monitoring program shall be established to identify violations of human rights by IFIs with the power to order IFIs to immediae agreement to which the U.S. is a party within six months of receiving the report, the Administration must at the end of the six month period withdraw from each trade agreement for which Congress has not expressed satisfaction by immediately initiating the withdrawal mechanisms contained in the trade agreement. 4. Congress hereby terminates all existing grants of trade agreement negotiating authority. The U.S. shall immediately cease ongoing negotiations of new trade and investment agreements until such time as Congress passes a new grant of negotiating authority and negotiating objectives. --MS_Mac_OE_3004935248_557654_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Off:  Congress + sustainable resolution This resolution, soon to be introduced in Congress, may be of interest to r= eaders of the BDNow list.   Best, Steven
----------------------------------------------------------


Subject: Global Sustainable Development Resolution
Author: Campaign for Labor Rights <clr@igc.apc.= org>
Date: 1999/03/16


Global Sustainable Development Resolution of 1999

[to be introduced soon in the House by Representative Bernie Sanders]

The Congress of the United States hereby resolves:

Section 1: Preamble

Whereas a new global economy has emerged over the past 25 years;

Whereas the global economy has had a profound and at times destructive
impact on the majority of Americans and of people around the world;

Whereas most people have had little say in designing or governing the
global economy;

Whereas the current structure of the global economy therefore violates the<= BR> fundamental right of people to equality and self-determination as
proclaimed in the US Declaration of Independence and the International
Declaration of Human Rights;

Whereas uncontrolled globalization threatens the very sustainability of
local and global environments;

Whereas the global economy has entered a crisis that threatens the economic=
security and well-being of people all over the world;

Therefore be it resolved: that the people and government of the United
States and of the other nations of the world initiate a process of
establishing democratic control over the global economy.

Section 2: Findings

It is the finding of Congress that:

1. Experience has proved that unregulated economic globalization tends to generate the following deleterious consequences:

Volatility.
(a) Global financial deregulation has reduced barriers to the international=
flow of capital. More than $1.5 trillion now flow across international
borders every day in the foreign currency market alone. This excess volume<= BR> contributes to financial instability, and is too large for each nation to be able to intervene to restore monetary stability. The result is a world economy marked by dangerous and disruptive financial volatility.

Race to the bottom.

 (b) Globalization promotes a destructive competition in which workers= ,
communities, and entire countries are forced to cut labor, social, and
environmental costs in order to attract mobile capital. When many countries=
do the same thing the result is a disastrous "race to the bottom."= ;

As each workforce, community, or country seeks to become more competitive by reducing its wages and social and environmental overheads, lower wages and reduced public spending result in less buying power. This leads to
stagnation, recession, unemployment, and global economic crisis.

Impoverishment

(c) The past quarter-century of globalization has seen not a reduction but<= BR> a vast increase in poverty. For example,

i. Globally, unemployment is approaching one billion.
ii. In the United States, real average wages were $9 per hour in 1973;
twenty-five years later they were $8 per hour. The median family income was=
$1,000 less in 1996 than in 1989. The typical married-couple family worked<= BR> 247 more hours per year in 1996 than in 1989-that is more than 6 weeks
worth of additional work.

Inequality.

(d) Globalization has contributed to an enormous increase in the
concentration of wealth and the growth of poverty both within countries and=
worldwide. 447 billionaires have wealth greater than the income of the
bottom half of humanity. In the U.S., the richest man has wealth equal to that of the bottom 40 per cent of the American people.

The total wealth of the world's three richest individuals is greater than the combined gross domestic product of the 48 poorest countries-a quarter of all the world's states.

The world's 225 richest individuals, of whom 60 are Americans with total assets of $311 billion, have a combined wealth of over $1 trillion-equal to=
the annual income of the poorest 47% of the entire world's population.

The downward pressures of globalization have been focused most intensively<= BR> on discriminated-against groups that have the least power to resist,
including women, racial and ethnic minorities, and indigenous peoples.
Women have been the prime victims of exploitation in export industries and<= BR> have suffered the brunt of cutbacks in public services and support for
basic needs. Immigrants and racial and ethnic minorities in many parts of the world have not only been subject to exploitation, but have been abused<= BR> as scapegoats for the economic troubles caused by corporate globalization.<= BR> Indigenous people have had their traditional ways of life disrupted and
their economic resources plundered by global corporations and governments doing their bidding.

Degradation of Democracy.

(e) Globalization has reduced the power of individuals and peoples to shape=
their destinies through participation in democratic processes.

i. Of the 100 largest economies in the world, 51 today are corporations, not countries. Globalization has greatly increased the power of global
corporations relative to local, state, and national governments. The
ability of governments to pursue development, full employment, or other
national economic goals has been undermined by the growing power of capital=
to relocate to other jurisdictions.

ii. There are few international equivalents to the anti-trust, consumer
protection, and other laws that provide a degree of corporate
accountability at the national level. As a result, corporations are able to=
dictate policy to governments, backed by the threat that they will
relocate.

iii. Governmental authority has been undermined by trade agreements, such as NAFTA and the WTO, and by international financial institutions, such as<= BR> the IMF and World Bank, which restrict the power of national, state, and local governments to govern their own economies. These institutions
themselves are sorely lacking in democratic control and accountability.
They are all too often themselves complicit in the denial of human rights.<= BR>
2. The global economy has entered a crisis that threatens the well-being of=
the people of the United States and the world.

a) President Clinton has called the current global crisis the worst in 50 years and "the most important subject now facing the world community.&= quot;

b) Growth of the global economy is at its lowest point in 30 years.

c) The countries that were once the showcases for globalization are now in<= BR> economic shambles. South Korea's economy has shrunk by 45% and Thailand's by 50%. Indonesia's has shrunk by nearly 80%, and gross domestic product per capita has fallen from $3500 to $750.

d) The economic crisis that started in Asia is now ricocheting around the world. What has become a global crisis is now affecting trade, employment,<= BR> capital markets, agriculture, and other aspects of life in the United
States and around the world.

3. It is in the common interest of the people of the United States and of the people of the rest of the world to rectify these defects.

 Section 3: Policy Goals

It is hereby declared to be the policy of the United States:

1. To reconstruct the global economy to realize the following goals:

a) Democracy at every level from the local to the global.
b) Human rights for all people.
c) Environmental sustainability worldwide.
d) Economic advancement of the most oppressed and exploited parts of the population, including women, immigrants, racial and ethnic minorities, and<= BR> indigenous peoples.

2. To construct a multilevel global economy which strengthens the capacity<= BR> of democratic governments at every level from local to global to expand the=
capacity of their people to meet their economic needs.

a) Under the UN Charter on the Economic Rights and Duties of States,
governments have the obligation to protect the human rights of their
citizens. These include their labor, social, environmental, economic, and cultural rights. Governments have the right to pursue policies necessary to=
fulfill these rights.

b) In a global economy, international coordination and international
institutions are at times necessary in order to make it possible for local<= BR> and national governments to effectively meet their obligations to their own=
people and exercise the rights necessary to do so.

c) To the extent feasible, economic decision making should follow the
subsidiarity principle, under which decision making should be exercised as<= BR> close to the locus of the actual activity being decided as possible.

3. To reduce the threat of financial volatility and meltdown by:

a) Encouraging capital controls to reduce the destabilizing impact of
international financial speculation ("hot money") and to restore = national
monetary autonomy, including:

i. National controls on capital inflow and/or outflow.

 ii. Levies on currency exchange transactions (commonly known as a &qu= ot;Tobin
Tax" after James Tobin, Nobel economist) to reduce the volume of short= -term
transactions, restore, national monetary autonomy, and provide a resource pool for sustainable development and environmental protection.

iii. Other forms of regulations on currency exchange rates and volumes.

b) Forestalling competitive devaluations: help countries adjust to changing=
conditions without drastic devaluations and massive increases in exports.
c) Supporting appropriate global demand: A major problem of the world
economy is insufficient economic demand. This threatens a global
depression. The maintenance of adequate demand worldwide requires
cooperation of the major economic powers working in tandem to ensure global=
demand adequate to help all economies grow. Efforts to increase demand
should focus primarily on increasing equity and sustainability by expanding=
the resources devoted to the global poor and the global environment.

d) Making speculators pay for their losses: International bailouts have
insulated large banks and investors from the consequences of their
high-risk speculations. That encourages more such speculative ventures
("moral hazard"). The result is even more international volatilit= y. When
assistance is provided for economies in trouble, it must go to benefit the<= BR> people, not to international investors who lured them into trouble in the first place.

4. To counter inequality, impoverishment, and the race to the bottom by:
a) Protecting the global environment by encouraging sustainable development=
that enhances the environment as a long-term resource.

b) Encouraging sustainable development by means of global, national, and local policies that:
i. Ensure livable wages.
ii. make credit available for small and medium-sized locally-owned
businesses and farms.
iii. pursue a progressive tax policy that reduces the burden on the poor. iv. Promote long-term investment rather than short-term foreign investment<= BR> that just skims off speculative profits.
v. Encourage spending on primary health care, basic education, and other social services that improve people's lives and provide the basis for
long-term economic growth.
vi. Empower people in local communities to use their resources to address their needs: International agreements should not interfere with the right of communities to set minimum standards and to pursue economic
self-reliance. National and international policy should channel resources to locally controlled development.

c) End global debt slavery: The debt of the poorest countries should be
written off and other countries should be assisted to make sustainable
development rather than debt repayment their first priority.

d) Pursue cooperation among rich and poor countries to reduce world
poverty: The current gap between the global rich and poor is unacceptable;<= BR> it is unconscionable to act as if it can be a permanent feature of the
global economy.

e) Encourage people at the grassroots to organize themselves in strong and<= BR> independent trade unions and other organizations to assure their
participation in decisions impacting economic development and an equitable<= BR> distribution of economic benefits.

5. To encourage democracy by:

a) Using economic policy to support democracy and human rights: While
humanitarian aid should be available to all in need, financial support
should be provided only in ways that encourage democratization and popular<= BR> participation and should not be used to perpetuate regimes that deny human<= BR> rights.

b) Democratizing the IMF, World Bank, other international financial
institutions, and the G-7/8: It is unacceptable to assume that the rich
countries of the world can monopolize decision-making regarding the global<= BR> economy's future through dominant voting privileges at the International Financial Institutions and creation of major policy decisions through the G-7/8. Voting in international financial institutions must move toward the<= BR> standard of equal representation for all the world's people. International<= BR> economic policymaking must move from the "rich men's club" of the= G-7/8 to
a renewed North/South dialogue.

c) Making international economic institutions transparent and accountable:<= BR> The procedures, decisions, and programs of organizations like the World
Bank, IMF, and WTO need to be open to public scrutiny.

d) Letting those affected by international economic policies participate in=
making them: Instead of closed negotiations with top government and
corporate officials, decisions about international economic agreements and<= BR> loans should require participation by labor unions, environmental groups, women's organizations, development organizations, and other major sectors of civil society in each country.

e) Encouraging governments at every level to establish sustainable
development plans and provide international support for the implementation<= BR> of such plans.

f) Ending "crony capitalism" by reducing the domination of politi= cal
systems and media by economic oligarchs and by increasing the capacity of people to organize themselves at the grassroots.

Section 4: Policy Mandates

I. Initiating National Dialogue

1. There is hereby established a U.S. Commission on the Global Economy to develop the broadest possible dialogue by the people of the United States among themselves and with the other peoples of the world regarding the
future of the global economy.

a) The purpose of the U.S. Commission on the Global Economy is to initiate<= BR> a dialogue on the future of the global economy.

b) The Commission shall:

i. Hold hearings to investigate the effect of globalization on U.S. workers=
and industry and the environment. These hearings must include the full
participation of civil society, including representatives from labor,
women, minority, environmental, farm and small business groups. These
results must be widely distributed and available for public comment.

ii. Hold town meetings in major American cities to invite public
participation in discussions.

iii. Cooperate with similar commissions established by other countries and<= BR> by the United Nations.

iv. Report its findings and recommendations to Congress and the American people no later than one year after this Act is passed.

II. Initiating Global Dialogue

1. The United States shall initiate the establishment of a United Nations Commission on the Global Economy.

a) The purpose of the United Nations Commission on the Global Economy is to=
initiate a global dialogue on the future of the global economy.

b) To indicate its ultimate accountability to all the world's people, the Commission will function under the auspices of the United Nations.

c) The Commission will seek to revive the North-South Dialogue and thereby<= BR> to reorient the global economy toward greater economic justice.

d) The Commission will use and expand techniques developed over the past decade to include representatives of civil society and NGOs in UN
conferences, including funding and support for civil society participation.=

e) Parallel national commissions will work with the Global Commission to develop the broadest possible dialogue regarding the future of the global economy.

2. The United Nations Commission on the Global Economy will also establish<= BR> a Global Economy Truth Commission to provide citizens of the world with
information needed to monitor the results, impacts, and failures of
economic institutions and policy at every level. The Truth Commission's
inquest will be provided the powers to investigate, publicize, and refer to other authorities abuses in the use of international funds and the
powers of international financial institutions.

III. Global Sustainable Development Agreement

1. The United Nations Commission on the Global Economy will initiate a
series of Bretton Woods-type international conferences to establish new
rules for the global economy. These conferences must include
representatives not only of nation-states, bankers, and industry, but an equal number of citizen organizations from every country. Negotiations must=
be based on an open, inclusive, and democratic process.

2. These conferences shall make recommendations for and initiate
negotiation of a Global Sustainable Development Agreement. The objective of=
the U.S. in that negotiation shall be to incorporate the principles,
rules,and policies enunciated in this Act and establish the institutions described therein to implement them, as modified by the global dialogue
described above.

IV. Global Sustainable Development Financial Strategy

1. The United States shall enter into negotiations with other members of the United Nations to develop and implement a strategy to counter those
aspects of the global financial system that make it more difficult for
communities, regions, and countries to pursue sustainable development.

2. The purpose of this strategy shall be to restructure the international financial system to avoid global recessions, protect the environment,
ensure full employment, reverse the polarization of wealth and poverty, and=
support the efforts of polities at all levels to mobilize and coordinate their economic resources.

3. To achieve these goals, the United States will work with other nations to:

a) Encourage countries to pursue economic policies based on domestic
economic growth and development, not domestic austerity in the interest of<= BR> export-led growth.

b) Encourage the G-7/8 countries to coordinate their economic policies to stimulate domestic demand and prevent global deflation.

c) Help countries adjust currency exchange rates without competitive
devaluations.

d) Develop means for assuring global liquidity, such as an expansion of the=
system of Special Drawing Rights, in order to protect the global economy, especially poorer countries, from liquidity squeezes.

e) Encourage a return to more stable exchange rates in order to achieve the=
original purposes of the Bretton Woods agreement.

f) Reduce the flows of destabilizing short-term capital by the adoption of<= BR> capital controls as necessary.

g) Establish standards for and oversee the regulation of banks and all
other financial institutions by national and international regulatory
authorities.

h) Encourage the shift of financial resources from speculation to useful, environmentally-positive, sustainable development; including targeted
investment for small and medium size businesses, farmers, and community
development.

i) Pursue other measures to ensure global demand adequate to provide full employment and a rising standard of living.

4. The United States, in cooperation with other nations, shall establish levies on all foreign currency transactions ("Tobin Tax") and sha= ll
coordinate with them the mechanisms for implementing nationally adopted
levies on foreign currency transactions. The purpose of these levies will be:

a) To reduce the volume of destabilizing short-term cross-border financial<= BR> flows.

b) To restore national monetary autonomy over national currency.

c) To provide pools of funds for investment in long-term environmentally and socially sustainable development in poor communities and countries.

5. The United States, in cooperation with other nations, shall establish one or more public international investment funds. The purpose of these
funds shall be
>
a) to meet human and environmental needs and ensure adequate global demand<= BR> by channeling funds into sustainable long-term investment.
>
b) to counter global economic cycles by appropriate expansion and
contraction of fund activities.
>
6. The United States, in cooperation with other nations, shall develop
international institutions to perform functions of monetary regulation
currently performed inadequately by national central banks. These may
include:

a) A system of internationally-coordinated minimum reserve requirements on<= BR> the consolidated global balance sheets of all financial firms.

b) Utilization of reserve requirements to counter cyclical variations in global growth rates.

c) Coordinated efforts to reduce fluctuations in currency exchange rates through complementary national fiscal and monetary policies and
international exchange rate agreements.

V. Debt Reduction

1. The United States shall work with the G-7, the commercial banks, the
International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, regional development banks, and other international financial institutions to write off the debts of the most impoverished countries by the end of the year 2000. The final goal=
of all debt forgiveness initiatives will be to allow countries to pursue sustainable domestic development.

a) The United States will cancel all amounts owed to the United States by the most impoverished countries.

b) The United States shall instruct its representatives in the IMF, World Bank, and other international financial institutions to advocate full debt<= BR> cancellation for the most impoverished countries and to participate in debt=
relief. Sources for debt relief may include previous IMF accounts, Special<= BR> Drawing Authority (SDA), Enhanced Structural Adjustment Facility  (ESA= F)
Reserve Account, lower collateral requirements, and gold. The IFI's shall provide one billion U.S. dollars of their own resources to support
substantial debt relief for the highly indebted countries.

c) Debt cancellation shall not depend on adherence to structural adjustment=
or similar programs.

d) Countries receiving debt relief shall be encouraged to support
investment in human development by allocating at least 20 percent of
savings from such relief to basic social services, with appropriate input from civil society in developing basic service plans.

e) No impoverished country shall be required to pay an amount exceeding 5 percent of its annual export earnings toward the servicing of foreign
loans.

f) No funds received for debt relief may be used to increase military
spending.

2. The United States will cooperate with other nations to establish an
insolvency ("bankruptcy") mechanism for highly indebted nations.<= BR>
a) The insolvency mechanism will draw on the experience of other bankruptcy=
procedures for governments, such as the municipal insolvency provisions of<= BR> Chapter 9 of the U.S. bankruptcy law.

b) The insolvency mechanisms will provide for the creation of arbitration panels. Creditors and debtors will nominate an equal number of persons to serve as arbiters, who will themselves elect one more arbiter; together
they will form the arbitration panel.

c) The arbitration panel will establish the debtor country's capacity to pay, taking into account necessary expenditures for social safety nets to protect a minimum of human dignity of the poor and the debtor's economic future.

d) Those persons affected by the results of arbitration will have the right=
to be represented in the proceedings.

e) When an arbitration panel determines a country to be insolvent and its debts to be unrepayable, it shall restructure debts based on debtors'
ability to pay, such restructuring to apply equally to governmental, IFI, and private creditors.

VI. Reform of International Financial Institutions

The United States Congress establishes the following conditions for any
U.S. funding of the World Bank, the IMF, and other International Financial<= BR> Institutions (IFIs):

1. Labor conditions

a) The IFIs shall ensure conformance with internationally recognized worker=
rights set forth in the relevant conventions of the ILO, including the
right of freedom of association, the right to organize and bargain
collectively, freedom from discrimination, a prohibition on the use of any<= BR> form of forced or compulsory labor, the right to strike, and certain
minimum labor standards that take into account differences in development levels among nations including a minimum age for the employment of
children, acceptable conditions of work with respect to minimum wages,
hours of work, and occupational safety and health in every program. This conformance will be a condition of approval and renewal for every loan.

 b) IFI mission teams shall include a representative from the ILO to t= ake
the lead in negotiating labor issues.

c) Local labor unions shall participate in these negotiations.

d) The outcome of these dialogues shall be reflected in all IFI documents.<= BR>
2. Environmental conditions

a) The IFIs shall establish a systematic process to review in advance, and<= BR> take into account in policy formation, projected impacts of each lending agreement on ecological sustainability.

b) The IFIs shall employ natural resource economists with expertise in
environmental accounting measures to integrate such measures in its
technical assistance.

c) Environmental regulations shall not be weakened under any IFI program.
d) Loan programs shall encourage environmental tax policies to protect the<= BR> environment by correcting negative environmental market externalities and other market failures.

 e) All IFI lending shall aim to strengthen environmental laws and inc= rease
borrowing government's capacity for environmental management and
enforcement. Lending must also incorporate the goals of shifting the
portfolio and operations toward environmentally sustainable investments.
f) No IFI project or policy shall run contrary to the purpose or policy of<= BR> any multilateral environmental agreement.

g) The World Bank shall:

i. invest 20% of its total energy portfolio in alternative/renewable
energy, demand side management and energy efficiency programs in 1999.
These share of these programs in the total energy portfolio shall increase<= BR> 10 percent per year thereafter [to a permanent total of X percent].

ii. reduce carbon emissions on its entire portfolio by 10% per year [to a permanent total of X percent].

iii. develop and implement an action plan for meeting the energy needs of the world's 2 billion rural poor.

iv. shift its transportation portfolio from road and highway construction to traffic demand management, road safety, rail, public transportation, and=
projects which benefit non-motorized transport users, especially in the
poorest segments of society.

v. expand its investments in sustainable agriculture projects that
emphasize farmer participation, ecological education, and training to
reduce use of pesticides and other chemical inputs.

vi. assist governments in developing integrated policy frameworks to
support sustainable agriculture and local and national food security.

vii. forest protection, conservation, and reforestation shall be the
priority objective for forest sector loans.

viii. fund projects that examine alternatives to wood and better efficiency=
in wood use.

ix. increase investments for demand side management and water efficiency projects.

 h) The World Bank shall exclude from funding:

i. Infrastructure or extractive projects in frontier or primary tropical, temperate or boreal forests.

ii. Logging or other forest projects unless certified by an accredited
international certification body, such as the Forest Stewardship Council.
iii. Projects in or impacting areas listed on the United Nations List of National Parks and Protected Areas, or Nature Reserves/Wilderness Areas, National Parks, or National Monuments or proposed nature sites.

iv. Projects that involuntarily resettle more than 500 people.

v. Large dam projects that do not incorporate the recommendations of the forthcoming final report of the World Commission on dams.

vi. Projects involving the manufacture of ozone-depleting substances, or use of persistent organic pollutants, or hazardous pesticides.

i) The IMF's Articles of Agreement shall be amended to reflect adherence to=
and enforcement of environmental sustainability, including:

i. The establishment of an IMF system of environmental reviews.

ii. Preparation of environmental impact statements for each Fund lending agreement.

iii Requirement that borrowing countries, at a minimum, maintain and
enforce existing environmental regulations.

iv. Requirement that environmental spending as a percentage of GDP shall not decrease under any Fund program.

3. Social conditions

a) Credit policies shall not decrease the availability of credit for small<= BR> and medium sized locally-owned businesses and farms.

b) No IFI economic reform program shall ever result in decreased real per capita public spending on the part of the borrower government in the areas<= BR> of primary health care, basic education, and other basic social services.
c) The IFIs will not advocate user fees for basic health and education
services in any loan program.

d) The IFIs shall establish a systematic process to review in advance, and<= BR> to take into account in policy formation, projected impacts of each lending=
agreement on public health and poverty, as well as the impact of such
policies on vulnerable groups such as women and children.

 4. Democracy and Human Rights

a) An independent monitoring program shall be established to identify
violations of human rights by IFIs with the power to order IFIs to immediae=
agreement to which the U.S. is a party within six months of receiving the report, the  Administration must at the end of the six month period withdraw from each trade agreement for which Congress has not expressed
satisfaction by immediately initiating the withdrawal mechanisms contained<= BR> in the trade agreement.

 4. Congress hereby terminates all existing grants of trade agreement<= BR> negotiating authority. The U.S. shall immediately cease ongoing
negotiations of new trade and investment agreements until such time as
Congress passes a new grant of negotiating authority and negotiating
objectives.






--MS_Mac_OE_3004935248_557654_MIME_Part-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 09:32:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13168 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:32:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19497; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:21:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19313 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.30]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:25:13 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:23:46 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: THE FUTURE OF CITIES (from the CSA Mailing List) Message-ID: <762B4FC1F8C1B5C88525673C004F0938.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id JAA19320 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 311 In the Global Futures Bulletin #79 and 80, a matter very close to my research field is discussed, city future, and I have added the following remark. Since I think that the issue is of interest also to the CSA-members, I take the liberty to post it also to you, in order to ecourage your work. FG THE FUTURE OF CITIES Folke Günther [1] A very interesting discussion on urban development has taken place in the GFB #79 and #80 by Peter Newman [2], Ted Trainer [3] and John McLaughlin [4], and in the editorial comments to their compositions. In the discussions, however, some important issues have been foreseen that must be pointed out: I. Energy dependence Urban structures are not only heavily energy using, but also can it be said that they are a result [5] of energy availability. This matter can naturally be discussed, but I think that almost everybody will agree with the statement that a conurbation is heavily energy dependent. Thus, the sustainability of a city is dependent on easily accessible energy. An increasing number of studies [6] doubt that energy will be easily accessible even in the close future. Even in a case where this is not agreed with, it should be taken up as a consideration in the sustainable development discussion. The energy dependence is not only a function of personal transportation/urban sprawl, but also an increasing amount of energy used in the food system. A low estimate is that the food system requires ten times the energy in the food, probably more. The US food system reached that (in)efficiency around 1980 [7]. Since the average food energy needed to sustain a person is about 1000 kWh per year, this means that the food related energy requirements of a person (10 000 kWh/yr) are larger than those of transportation (3 500 kWh/yr) or space heating/cooling (4 000 kWh/yr). Naturally, this correspondingly affects the vulnerability to energy availability of the different systems. Therefore, urban sprawl and urbanisation will only take place in a situation characterised by easily accessible energy. If a habitation system can be found that would diminish this energy dependency considerably, it would be much less vulnerable. II. Nutrient dependency When people live in a crowded area (a conurbation) the food can not be produced locally for its inhabitants (see point I) but must be imported from a wide area. Nutrients, of which phosphorus is the scarcest in the support area, follow the food. Hence fertilisers must be supplied to the food growing area, and they are accumulated in the urban area, or lost into seas or lakes. To my knowledge, there are no cities that maintain a circulation of nutrients to the supporting area, but all have a net import or throughput of nutrients. This situation has several complications. First, there is a support ? pollution problem. The time-horizon for availability of phosphorus for nutrient production (at current energy prices!) is 100 ? 150 years. In the other end, phosphorus (and nitrogen) compounds are serious water pollutants. To avoid the pollution problem, an increasing part of the cities have installed wastewater plants. If phosphorus is not let out of the area, it will accumulate there, mainly as sludge from the plants. The sludge is deposited in the vicinity, either on landfills or on local agriculture. By this, the accumulation in the area will go on. However, when an increasing amount of nutrients is accumulated in the area the non-point leakage will increase. After some time, the total leakage will amount to a substantial part of the import, and the phosphorus flow is redirected into the flow import ? accumulation ? leakage, instead of the earlier import ? export mode. The end result is the same, however, with depletion in one end and pollution in the other. This is what I call a HEAP-trap (Hampered Effluent Accumulation Processes) [8]. It is clearly an unsustainable conduct. Therefore, urban sprawl and urbanisation will only take place in a situation characterised by easily accessible energy and easily accessible nutrients, especially phosphorus. The only way to avoid this problem is to develop a local food production system that also can re-use the nutrients. The lesser the access to cheap energy and nutrients are, the closer must the loop be. A conclusion: If long-time survival is the issue, local, mainly self-supporting communities must replace the large conurbations. Started soon, the process must not necessarily be very fast. I call this process a ?ruralisation?. [1] Folke Günther, disserting at Department of Systems Ecology, NMR, Stockholm University, Sweden (Ecological Adaptation of Human Settlements). Lecturer in Division of Human Ecology, Lund University, Sweden. URL:http://www.etn.lu.se/~folke g/folkegsv.htm (sorry, most of it is in Swedish) E-mail: Folke.Gunther@humecol.lu.se [2] Newman, Peter 'Cities and Smart Growth' Global Futures Bulletin #79 01 Mar, 1999 [3] Trainer, Ted 'Smart Growth' Global Futures Bulletin #80 15 Mar, 1999 [4] McLaughlin, John Impact of the Net on Urban Planning/Transport Global Futures Bulletin #80 15 Mar, 1999 [5] A diagram shoving the development if cities compared to the global energy use can be found (in an article in swedish) at http://www.etn.lu.se/~folke g/RURSV2.HTM [6] http://hubbert.mines.edu/ ; http://dieoff.org/page1.htm ; Campbell, C. J., 1997. The Coming Oil Crisis. Multi-Science Publishing Company / Petroconsultants S.A.; Campbell, C. J. and J. H. Laherrère, 1998. The End of Cheap Oil. Scientific American, 3: 78-83 [7] Hall, C.A.S., C.J.Cleveland and R.Kaufmann, 1986. Energy and Resource Quality. Wiley Interscience, New York. [8] Günther, F., 1997. Hampered Effluent Accumulation Processes: Phosphorus Management and Societal Structure. Ecological Economics, 21, 159-174. Elsevier -- ------------------------------------------------------------- Folke Günther +46 (0)46/ 14 14 29 el. +46 (0)46/222 36 98. Kollegievägen 19, 224 73 Lund, Sweden URL: http://www.humecol.lu.se/~folke g/folkegsv.htm --- When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it. A.A. Milne From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 12:04:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16934 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:04:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14584; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from dns1.mcn.org (root@dns1.mcn.org [204.189.12.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14001 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:48:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from 204.189.12.254 (ha-4e-men-m050.mcn.org [204.189.12.254]) by dns1.mcn.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id IAA19479 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:51:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36F60579.58C4@mcn.org> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:55:21 +0000 From: Kate Clarke Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Foxglove Farm (707) 937-4116 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Query on goats References: <199903072115.QAA16036@smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 312 Hi Allen, Thanks for posting back. We are well into Spring plantings and got a copy for March from Charles and Cathrine Martin, the previous owners of this sweet little farm. It is the Stella that I use, thank you so much. I thought they were the same. We have just givin every dollar we could save, borrow and work for to the Martins for the down payment and this year is so critical for making a go. We have great people here and hope to find a few more. I use a borrowed buck's services and usually give the babies away. We do use the bands and do not de-horn.This is a majic and blessed land. Look for our web site in May. I traded for landscape work. Thanks for your support! Kate Clark Foxglove Farm, Comptche Ca. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 12:09:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17088 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:09:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15602; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:57:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15164 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:55:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([195.44.14.5]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:58:49 +0000 Message-ID: <36F6771D.3266@cwcom.net> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:00:13 +0000 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Math book advertisements Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 313 Of course, a minor point in all this is that the Lands' End brand (? consciously) misplaces the apostrophe, thus teaching bad English rather than good maths... Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 12:29:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17427 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:29:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19514; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:19:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19196 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:17:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.17]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:22:12 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:20:43 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: soil testing Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 314 <> well Allan, non scientist that I am, in Will Brinton's defense, I must say having had the pleasure of hearing him speak at Roxbury farm that I was quite impressed with his enthusiam and knowledge. I found him a very compelling speaker. And again, one could be too busy to be a member of this list, with mail volume which tends to be overwhelming at times! Perhaps if you join the BDA, as Demeter says at their website, you can receive a discount on some lab work done at Woods End. <> regards, Jane From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 12:39:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17639 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:39:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21187; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:28:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20601 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:25:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.18]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:29:51 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:28:22 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Spring Equinox--Cress Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 315 Parker, (from Abundant Life catalogue:) Cress, Curled or Land (Lepidium sativum) pungent, peppery, sow spring or fall. Self sows readily, winter hardy green pre 1855. Cress, Persian Broadleaf, (L.sativum) large leaves w/frilled edge, easy to grow, reaches 8-10", rare Cress, True Water (Nasturtium officianale) press or scatter seed in mud on banks of slow moving waters, early spring or autumn. Valuable since roman times, 1750. When I lived in the catskill mountains, there was cress on our property where the stream that ran through the property rushed to meet the pond. It came up surprisingly early in the season, considering how cold it was. And lasted a good while, if we didnt rush to eat it all! Added it to the violets, dandelion, and chickweed salads...never did try raw nettles though! Best, Jane bruce ritchie on 03/20/99 01:49:03 PM Please respond to bdnow@envirolink.org To: bdnow@envirolink.org cc: Subject: Re: Spring Equinox Parker (or whomever may know), In your equinox comments you've mentioned watercress (which i've heard is really full of nutrients). Watercress is Nasturtium Officianalis. Here's my query. Around here in Charlottesville va they have land cress or 'creesy greens' as the older black folks call it. Can you tell me what the difference is between the two either with the latin name, characteristics, or even (especially) the nutrients? Watercress here is around a dollar for 3 ounces, and travels some distance, landcress is grown locallly and 69 cents to a doollar a pound. What about the growning season/range of watercress? Anyone with specifics please chime in! Bruce Ritchie _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 14:10:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19615 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:10:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06228; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:00:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05926 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:57:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 5342 invoked from network); 22 Mar 1999 12:00:12 -0700 Received: from ts2-29.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO cyberhighway.net) (209.161.18.180) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 22 Mar 1999 12:00:12 -0700 Message-ID: <36F69342.C1CA92DB@cyberhighway.net> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:00:19 -0700 From: Pam DeTray Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: White Moon Dancing X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Math book ads/'''' References: <36F6771D.3266@cwcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 316 Tony, Misplaced apostrophes used to be a pet peeve of mine, but they've become part of the landscape--just drive through any town and read the signs. Read your email. Read advertisements. I've even seen it (as well as atrocious spelling) on notes home from school in the years we weren't home schooling. Good editors (or editor's, as common usage would have it) all over the country are holding out, but I often wonder how long it will be before we see it in book's and magazine's! With self-publishing becoming an increasing segment of our body of literature, it's only a matter of time. English is a living language, and subject to change with the times. To me, it's like the sabbath, there to serve the people and not the other way around. But my early training under good teachers won't leave me, even if the rest of the world doesn't believe, as I did, that what they taught came as Truth from On High! Pam Tony Nelson-Smith wrote: > > Of course, a minor point in all this is that the Lands' End brand (? > consciously) misplaces the apostrophe, thus teaching bad English rather > than good maths... Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 14:35:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA20164 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:35:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09856; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:24:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mashie.force9.net (relay6.force9.net [195.166.128.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09518 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:22:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903221922.OAA09518@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 23700 invoked from network); 22 Mar 1999 19:26:14 -0000 Received: from coors.free-online.net (212.56.108.80) by relay6.force9.net with SMTP; 22 Mar 1999 19:26:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 3677 invoked from network); 22 Mar 1999 18:48:56 -0000 Received: from 55.hiper04.access.free-online.net (HELO ?212.56.116.55?) (212.56.116.55) by coors.free-online.net with SMTP; 22 Mar 1999 18:48:56 -0000 Subject: Re: OFF: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Date: Mon, 22 Mar 99 18:58:00 +0000 x-sender: elementalsols@mail.free-online.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Mark Moodie To: "BD list Postings" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 317 Jane Sherry/wcdev/US wrote;- >Hi Mark & Christine, > >I'm a bit perplexed by both of your remarks, especially as to how this >works exactly as you mean it with the GMO thread and/or bd context...could >you both expand a bit more on this please? Thanks... > >seeking illumination, >Jane Sherry I was referring to the excitement amongst some Anthros about the year 1998 being another peak of activity of the 666 beast - 3 times 666. This two horned or binary/digital fellow is well described in 'From Gondishapur to Silicon Valley' and my reference to computers follows that book. The GM debate can, from one perspective, be seen as the working of the same mentality or spirit. The threefold working of plant between heaven and earth is reduced to a simple equation of DNA and NPK - the right DNA and enough NPK and we can work wonders - is the simplified message coming from genetic technology. The plant as such is a miasm in the minds of those who haven't let go of the concept of 'organism' as a primary entitiy and has no role in understanding the realities of agriculture. I understand BD, as outlined by Steiner, to have a very different 'weltanschauung' or paradigm. Mark Moodie mark.es@aecb.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 14:39:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19615 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:10:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06228; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:00:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05926 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:57:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 5342 invoked from network); 22 Mar 1999 12:00:12 -0700 Received: from ts2-29.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO cyberhighway.net) (209.161.18.180) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 22 Mar 1999 12:00:12 -0700 Message-ID: <36F69342.C1CA92DB@cyberhighway.net> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:00:19 -0700 From: Pam DeTray Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: White Moon Dancing X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Math book ads/'''' References: <36F6771D.3266@cwcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 318 Tony, Misplaced apostrophes used to be a pet peeve of mine, but they've become part of the landscape--just drive through any town and read the signs. Read your email. Read advertisements. I've even seen it (as well as atrocious spelling) on notes home from school in the years we weren't home schooling. Good editors (or editor's, as common usage would have it) all over the country are holding out, but I often wonder how long it will be before we see it in book's and magazine's! With self-publishing becoming an increasing segment of our body of literature, it's only a matter of time. English is a living language, and subject to change with the times. To me, it's like the sabbath, there to serve the people and not the other way around. But my early training under good teachers won't leave me, even if the rest of the world doesn't believe, as I did, that what they taught came as Truth from On High! Pam Tony Nelson-Smith wrote: > > Of course, a minor point in all this is that the Lands' End brand (? > consciously) misplaces the apostrophe, thus teaching bad English rather > than good maths... Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 14:49:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA20527 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:49:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12799; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:38:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12528 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:37:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d155.infoserve.net [199.175.157.155]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA07539 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:43:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004d01be749b$e388d160$909dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: OFF: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:39:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 319 Dear Mark, Christine et al., I could add one thing for food for thought. It has been argued among many that there was no 0 years. Therefore, 3 X 888 from year 1 is NOT 1998 but, 1999. This year!! This year we have the Big Cross on Aug. 11, in conjunction with a solar eclipse. What better way to hide, perhaps, says Ahriman, behind that deception, as well as the 1999 vx 1998?! Michael -----Original Message----- From: Mark Moodie To: BD list Postings Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 11:30 AM Subject: Re: OFF: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives >Jane Sherry/wcdev/US wrote;- > >>Hi Mark & Christine, >> >>I'm a bit perplexed by both of your remarks, especially as to how this >>works exactly as you mean it with the GMO thread and/or bd context...could >>you both expand a bit more on this please? Thanks... >> >>seeking illumination, >>Jane Sherry > >I was referring to the excitement amongst some Anthros about the year >1998 being another peak of activity of the 666 beast - 3 times 666. This >two horned or binary/digital fellow is well described in 'From >Gondishapur to Silicon Valley' and my reference to computers follows that >book. > >The GM debate can, from one perspective, be seen as the working of the >same mentality or spirit. The threefold working of plant between heaven >and earth is reduced to a simple equation of DNA and NPK - the right DNA >and enough NPK and we can work wonders - is the simplified message coming >from genetic technology. The plant as such is a miasm in the minds of >those who haven't let go of the concept of 'organism' as a primary >entitiy and has no role in understanding the realities of agriculture. I >understand BD, as outlined by Steiner, to have a very different >'weltanschauung' or paradigm. > > >Mark Moodie >mark.es@aecb.net > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 14:50:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA20559 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:50:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13090; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:39:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12547 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:37:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d155.infoserve.net [199.175.157.155]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA07542 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:43:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004e01be749b$e70a08e0$909dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: OFF: Math book ads/'''' Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:40:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 320 here, here! I'm a stickler for punctuation and pronounciation due to some of my teachers as well. M. -----Original Message----- From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 11:05 AM Subject: Re: OFF: Math book ads/'''' >Tony, > >Misplaced apostrophes used to be a pet peeve of mine, but they've become >part of the landscape--just drive through any town and read the signs. >Read your email. Read advertisements. I've even seen it (as well as >atrocious spelling) on notes home from school in the years we weren't >home schooling. > >Good editors (or editor's, as common usage would have it) all over the >country are holding out, but I often wonder how long it will be before >we see it in book's and magazine's! With self-publishing becoming an >increasing segment of our body of literature, it's only a matter of time. > >English is a living language, and subject to change with the times. To >me, it's like the sabbath, there to serve the people and not the other >way around. But my early training under good teachers won't leave me, >even if the rest of the world doesn't believe, as I did, that what they >taught came as Truth from On High! > >Pam > >Tony Nelson-Smith wrote: >> >> Of course, a minor point in all this is that the Lands' End brand (? >> consciously) misplaces the apostrophe, thus teaching bad English rather >> than good maths... Tony N-S. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 17:57:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24747 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:57:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13258; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:45:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.hawaii.rr.com (smtp2.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13057 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:43:52 -0500 (EST) Received: apparently from phyl.hawaii.rr.com - 24.94.65.129 by smtp2.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:48:13 -1000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990322113726.00c3d100@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:46:17 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: RE: Calf rearing w/out the mamma In-Reply-To: <01BE6F69.EF700DE0@FLYLO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 321 March 22, 1999 - Hawaii Dear BD Friends, Here's an update on our dear little calf, Monique (little Mo). Thanks Martha, Hugh, Ferdinand, and Ian for your suggestions. Background ----------------- She has just hit eight weeks old (born 1/19/99). She came to us from a commercial dairy in desperate shape. She was pulled from her mother at birth, caged and bucket fed. She did not take to this well and was failing. She had scours and was just skin and bones, but still had a spark in her eye and licked and sucked fingers, etc. Her mother is a Holstein, papa is, what they call around here, poi beef (mixed) - perhaps Semmental, Charolais, and/or Brangus. She has a beautiful deer-like brown/gray color with knappy hair, white on her forehead, tail tip, two hind feet, and some on her belly. Feeding ------------ To slow up the runs and get something into her we started hand nursing her by bottle (1 quart every 4 hours, at 102 degrees F) with a commercial powdered milk substitute which is mostly milk based, but includes soy and various "additives". We usually make her walk about before and after eating and make her really work at sucking so her saliva gets moving good. We have asked around at some of the dairies for whole milk, but so far have only been offered mastitis milk full of penecillin, etc. We have opted for the powdered crap instead, and LOTS of positive good vibe love/sustenance "prayers". Her shit is much better now being the consistancy of a butterscotch pudding and smelling much more like shit should - shitty. We continue to hand bottle feed her and are now feeding 2 quarts (the whole bottle) each feeding (2.5 gallons per 5 feedings over 24 hours). She sucks well and has started to fill in a bit. You can no longer see every rib, but she has a long way to go. We also put an alfalfa molasas meal out for her which she gives a couple licks at every now and then. She occasionally checks out the water bucket, but doesn't seem to really drink much. She noses around in the grass every so gingerly and even sometimes manages to get a blade in her mouth to gum it, but rarely manages to actually eat it. Care ------- I wash her hind legs and okole (anus) at least every morning, followed with a brushing from head to tail. She get lots of rubbing and carressing during most nursings. Her "home" is a fenced in stall between two horses. During the day she can come and go between the paddock and her stall at will, although the horses are usually put out in other areas so she is often alone. She mostly "hibernates" if left alone. Most of her exploration and mock grazing only happens if I'm around, especially after her morning feeding followed by charming frolicking. We put a few drops each of essential oils: self heal (for general healing), chamomile (for digestion), and primrose (for estrangement from mother) twice a day in her milk. We also have started to give her homeopathic Thuja (30x) to help her bodies recover their own wisdom after commercial care and innoculants, etc. Additional Problems ----------------------------- She has an increasingly harsh skin condition - mange and/or ring worm which needs attention. If any one has suggestion PLEASE pass them along. Also, we would surely appreciate if anyone knows good sources for organic milk substitute, feed, suppliments, medications, info, etc. Thanks so much, Phyl =================================================== Please note Phyl Dwyer's new email address =================================================== From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 18:17:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA25036 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:17:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16217; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:06:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.hurontel.on.ca (mail.hurontel.on.ca [205.206.182.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15885 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:04:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from MERLINFR (clifford-179.wcl.on.ca [216.46.132.179]) by mail.hurontel.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA06839 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:17:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:17:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903222317.SAA06839@mail.hurontel.on.ca> X-Sender: merlinvf@mail.wcl.on.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: BDnow@envirolink.org From: Joe Von Frankenberg Subject: BD-Dairyfarm for sale!! Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 322 Hello This 200acre dairyfarm has been biodyn,operated since 1988,right after we immigrated from swizerland.We established a healthy and succsessfull 40cowheard (with names and all the TLC you can imagine.)Those cows even had real HORNES!! But.. there is always a but isn`t it so? My own health made an end to all of this beauty,and since we were unable to find some realtime partners the cows and quota had to be sold. Now in over 30 jears since I started bdfarming,it has caught on pretty well in peoples minds,it seams quit "chik" to have some organic milk for the pets and kids.(That is if you can get the kids to actually eat that stuff instead of chips) But "where have all the cowboys gone?"Is there someone out there that actually wants to DO this kind of work? And while I`m at it already,do we really need more lectures on how to farm biodynamics? Or is all this lecturing just another excuse for not having to do the legwork? Anyway now we are getting to the point where selling seams the only option and we know, that this farm is worthwhile saving for BDfarming! And yes it kosts money to buy a dairifarm in ontario,but not all people interestet in biodynamics are poor? To keep it short while I`m boiling is not easy! Good advice could be of help,good action could solve! J.v.Frankenberg Joe von Frankenberg rr1 Elmwood N0G 1S0 ONTARIO CA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 18:38:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA25372 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:38:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19495; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:27:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.hawaii.rr.com (smtp2.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19359 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:27:02 -0500 (EST) Received: apparently from phyl.hawaii.rr.com - 24.94.65.129 by smtp2.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:31:25 -1000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990322132919.00ac5e70@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:29:37 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: Fwd: Calf rearing w/out the mamma - Little Mo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 323 >From: "Julie M." >To: >Subject: Little Mo >Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 06:31:51 -0600 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 > >Congratulations, Dad!! > >From one who has been called "The Grand Mo" (I'd explain, but its too silly) >I thought I had to try to offer some advice about your calf. Is this calf >having any diarrhea at all? Usually this is the first sign of real trouble, >and if not dealt with immediately, you will lose her. There are electrolyte >mixes for calves, colostrum replacements, etc. but if she IS scouring, you >will want to stick with clear fluids...I like to add some apple cider >vinegar & a tad of honey to a bottle of warm water for a calf that is ill. >It will work if you get it in her early enough. Also, frequent feedings of >clear fluids. Seems to me like calves nurse throughout the day...when left >with mama. It is when they are taken from her & fed 2ce a day, 1/2 gallon of >milk, that they start to have trouble. When I have a sick calf, I will give >her much less milk, but more clear fluids & feed 3-4 times a day. Even >adding a noontime feeding of plain old water will help a healthy calf fare >better (they won't drink it cold tho') I've read that they MUST have lots >of "sucking" action, which produces lots of saliva, in order to properly >digest this milk, so if she's strong enough, make sure the bottle nipple >opening is small. (Calves who are nursing mom really slobber while feeding!) > >If you cannot find a local farmer to buy "waste milk" from, perhaps someone >with goats could sell you milk for her? Often farmers will use yogurt to >keep the calf's gut full of good bacteria. I've added 7-Stars yogurt to a >(big 5-gal) bucket of calf milk & it made me feel like I was adding that >good BD vibe to the milk...carried to it via the cultures. It is thicker of >course, so you might need to widen the nipple opening, but seems to work >wonders. > >What kind of calf is this, Phyl? Is she a Holstein, a Jersey? Are there lots >of dairy farms in Hawaii? BEST of luck, really, they are such wonderful >creatures:-) > >Love Julie Thanks for the tips Julie (The Grand Mo?!). Phyl pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com =================================================== Please note Phyl Dwyer's new email address =================================================== From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 22 19:03:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA25817 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:03:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA23175; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.hawaii.rr.com (smtp2.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA22892 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:50:07 -0500 (EST) Received: apparently from phyl.hawaii.rr.com - 24.94.65.129 by smtp2.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:54:31 -1000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990322134704.00c4d710@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:52:44 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: RE: Calf rearing w/out the mamma Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 324 Dear Friends, I misstated the "supplements" we are giving to Monique. They are actually flower essences, not essential oils. And it is not primrose we are giving her, but mariposa lily to help her in her new home and comfort her from being estranged from her mother. Phyl =================================================== Please note Phyl Dwyer's new email address =================================================== From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 00:15:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA01074 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:15:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA06677; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:02:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA03535 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:30:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.130] ("port 2049"@[148.233.186.130]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.11.13.11.10) with ESMTP id <0F9000C7OVB3T8@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:43:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:45:49 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: BD-Dairyfarm for sale!! In-reply-to: <199903222317.SAA06839@mail.hurontel.on.ca> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 325 >Hello >This 200acre dairyfarm has been biodyn,operated since 1988,right after we >immigrated from swizerland.We established a healthy and succsessfull >40cowheard (with names and all the TLC you can imagine.)Those cows even had >real HORNES!! >But.. there is always a but isn`t it so? My own health made an end to all of >this beauty,and since we were unable to find some realtime partners the cows >and quota had to be sold. >Now in over 30 jears since I started bdfarming,it has caught on pretty well >in peoples minds,it seams quit "chik" to have some organic milk for the pets >and kids.(That is if you can get the kids to actually eat that stuff instead >of chips) >But "where have all the cowboys gone?"Is there someone out there that >actually wants to >DO this kind of work? >And while I`m at it already,do we really need more lectures on how to farm >biodynamics? >Or is all this lecturing just another excuse for not having to do the legwork? >Anyway now we are getting to the point where selling seams the only option >and we know, >that this farm is worthwhile saving for BDfarming! >And yes it kosts money to buy a dairifarm in ontario,but not all people >interestet in >biodynamics are poor? To keep it short while I`m boiling is not easy! >Good advice could be of help,good action could solve! >J.v.Frankenberg >Joe von Frankenberg >rr1 Elmwood >N0G 1S0 ONTARIO CA Hi Joe: I am not sure I understood your posting. Do you want to sell your farm ?, How much are you asking for it and what assets are part of the deal ? If you need a partner, what do you want from her/him in terms of capital, work and experience. Regards Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 01:34:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA01902 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:34:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA14122; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:21:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13928 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:19:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from slip202-135-86-136.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-136.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.136]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA50546 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:21:57 GMT Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:21:57 GMT Message-Id: <199903230621.GAA50546@out4.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: RE: Calf rearing w/out the mamma Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 326 Hi Phyl, >Here's an update on our dear little calf, Monique (little Mo). >Additional Problems >----------------------------- >She has an increasingly harsh skin condition - mange and/or ring worm which >needs attention. If any one has suggestion PLEASE pass them along. I am new to the BDnow list, and will probably lurk awhile longer before properly introducing myself. I have recently become interested in Colloidal Silver, and it is reputed to be good against the egg-stages of parasites, and the pure form is known to be harmless. There are systems available to make your own (since it costs quite a bit to buy preparations). Just a thought. Lynton Blair From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 02:07:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA02442 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 02:07:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA16495; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:55:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheddar.direct.ca (cheddar.direct.ca [199.60.229.16]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA16333 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:53:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0212.direct.ca ([204.244.83.28] helo=direct.ca) by cheddar.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #20) id 10PL6D-0005NT-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:55:41 -0800 Message-ID: <36F73AB6.12183D6@direct.ca> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:54:46 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BD Discussion Group Bio-Dynamics Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE BDNOW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 327 UNSUBSCRIBE BDNOW -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 04:05:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA03197 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 04:05:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA24724; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:47:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA24483 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:44:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 958 invoked from network); 23 Mar 1999 01:46:54 -0700 Received: from ts2-16.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO cyberhighway.net) (209.161.18.167) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 23 Mar 1999 01:46:54 -0700 Message-ID: <36F75506.D47B6DEE@cyberhighway.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:47:19 -0700 From: Pam DeTray Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: White Moon Dancing X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" Subject: Study: Horsetail info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 328 I did a small study of equisetum this evening, and this is what I turned up. SFRA 21,39, 60, 128-129 (relieving soil of excessive lunar force), 233 I'm finding, on my study of the Ag Course, in addition to trying to just read through it in a linear fashion, that reading the table of contents is helpful, if you have the Creeger-Gardner translation. I can read the subheads as an introduction to a chapter, and as a review to see how much I remember and grok after I've read. Also, I use the index to follow a subject all through the lectures. I don't always quite understand where RS is coming from yet, but I'm getting there, very, very slowly. Making and using 508 (horsetail tea)-- Hugh Lovel, A Biodynamic Farm 114, 128 Wolf Storl, Culture and Horticulture, 155,348 Ehrenfried E. Pfeiffer, Weeds and What They Tell, 91-94 Web sites Photos "The exact identification of these species is still unknown, but tentatively assumed to belong into this group." http://www.funet.fi/pub/sci/bio/life/plants/pteridophyta/sphenopsida/equisetaceae/equisetum/index.html Equisetum arvense L. Field Horsetail, Common Horsetail EQUISETACEAE Click here to view trophophore. Bangham Road Woods, Jackson County, MI Photo by Dan Skean, April 1992 Closeup. http://www.albion.edu/fac/biol/skean/equiarpg.htm This page describes properties, phytochemicals, and uses of horsetail, equisetum arvense. Also a silhouette illustration. http://www.rain-tree.com/horsetail.htm Horsetails http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/h/hortai39.html Equisetum: The Search for a Polycrest http://www.lyghtforce.com/HomeopathyOnline/Issue4/bohle.htm The Herb Garden The Joy of Growing and Using Herbs Horsetail and House Leeks by Rachel McLeod "I first read about this remedy in an article about a farmer who had had great success with injuries on the farm – to a calf, a filly and herself! I can add our own experience to that, as horsetail helped the successful and fast healing of a widespread skin rash on my German shepherd." http://www.life.ca/nl/58/herbs.html Short blurb and nice green photos http://www.csubak.edu/fact/Horsetail.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 07:35:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA04348 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:35:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA06860; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:20:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA06672 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:18:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.167] (pm3shep2-163-68.intrepid.net [209.190.163.68]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA00980 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:21:08 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:22:51 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: DEVAS cannot move away......! by Ferdinand Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 329 Jane Sherry quoted me as saying: I remember when Ferdinand talked about how the Devas are retreating from the earth. I felt sad and actually felt also that this can NOT be entirely true. Recently I had the good fortune to speak with a young man who grew up on a farm, who quite naturally has & does commune and communicate with nature spirits. He said to me that everyone has Deva's but they usually don't "have the slightest clue" and "don't work with them at all". It was this comment that inspired (yes, the spirit moved me!) comments about 'my' need to hear more about these things from the more experienced farmers on this list. It was not meant as a criticism, although I am sure now, it came out that way. May I correct this quote: I said that Dr. Steiner gave a lecture on elemental beings and indicated that they had started (in about 1911) to move towards the Northern Countries of Europe such as Finland, Sweden, Norway etc. Devas are not moving away, (and should I have said that they do so, it is an error or an error in my printing - but I definitely did not mean a moving away of the devas) Devas are NOT moving like elemental beings. The devas can be compared with the 'soul' of a tree (being), the soul of a group of trees. It is the inner organ (somewhat individualized) that can 'act' like an 'inner organ' of a plant. This inner organ connects with the higher being of the overall plant. Like our ear is connected to our brain and then to our whole being and from thereon to our inner being. Jane, I really feel a bit concerned that I am being quoted as having said this about Devas. Let me know when and where. I hope that I have corrected this misunderstanding with the above. It would be the same as if our ear(s) would have moved away from us. Perhaps, it may be possible, but I really don't think so. I have signed off from BDNOW and am working throught he last posts. This one caught me and I wanted to immediately correct it. May I ask Allan Balliett to pass it on to the list. Kind regards Ferdinand -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 07:39:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA04382 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:39:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA07152; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:23:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.fastinternet.net.au (root@ns.fastinternet.net.au [203.37.167.131]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07008 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from rsdwat (cwn135-201.fastinternet.net.au [203.37.172.201]) by ns.fastinternet.net.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA29861 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:33:46 +1000 X-Authentication-Warning: ns.fastinternet.net.au: Host cwn135-201.fastinternet.net.au [203.37.172.201] claimed to be rsdwat Message-ID: <000301be7529$c8cc6560$c9ac25cb@rsdwat> From: "sally & robert watson" To: Subject: Re: Spirit on the List Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:29:36 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 330 -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Lovel To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 2:36 Subject: OFF: Re: Spirit on the List >Jane Sherry writes: > > >>Dear Friends on Bd-Now, >> >>In all this discussion of Monsanto and even of building up the soils, there >>has been comparatively little talk of the spiritual component of this work >>that is biodynamics. Once the BD principles start to work for you.i.e your farm is productive without the addition of NPK or organic substitutes you have to start thinking -what is happening? All of your materialistic mechanical theories have to be questioned and perhaps abandoned. How can such a small amount of prepared 500 create such fertility , for year after year . What I am trying to say is that the spiritual side of biodynamics isn't something you can talk about intellectually , it's rather something that you experience - it grows on you. While you do not know how it works you know it does work and in this there is release and awe. Robert Watson From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 08:04:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA04627 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:04:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA08986; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:47:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA08867 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:45:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.167] (pm3shep2-163-68.intrepid.net [209.190.163.68]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA05037 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:48:44 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36F75506.D47B6DEE@cyberhighway.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:51:09 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: Study: Horsetail info Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id HAA08869 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 331 We commonly refer to equisetum as 'horsetail.' I've always been at a loss to understand this common name. To me, the two states of equisetum appear to be 'pop grass' or a 'pinetree' (shave grass). Long, slender, essentially appendage free or looking like a 'bottle brush,' 'snake grass' always appears to have more 'obvious' silca in it's structure, and I assume it is what is also known at 'scouring rush' because it's ridgid serrations help get the gunk off from camp pots. I've also always assumed that it is dried 'snake grass' that one would use to 'bank' a compost pile. But looking through a bag of 508 from JPI the other day, it really appeared to me that it was all 'shave grass,' or from the 'bottle brush' state of equisetum. can anyone clear this up for me? Thanks -Allan Balliett >I did a small study of equisetum this evening, and this is what I turned up. > >SFRA >21,39, 60, 128-129 (relieving soil of excessive lunar force), 233 >I'm finding, on my study of the Ag Course, in addition to trying to just >read through it in a linear fashion, that reading the table of contents >is helpful, if you have the Creeger-Gardner translation. I can read the >subheads as an introduction to a chapter, and as a review to see how >much I remember and grok after I've read. >Also, I use the index to follow a subject all through the lectures. I >don't always quite understand where RS is coming from yet, but I'm >getting there, very, very slowly. > > >Making and using 508 (horsetail tea)-- Hugh Lovel, A Biodynamic Farm >114, 128 > Wolf Storl, Culture and >Horticulture, 155,348 >Ehrenfried E. Pfeiffer, Weeds and What They Tell, 91-94 > > >Web sites > >Photos >"The exact identification of these species is still unknown, but >tentatively assumed to belong into this group." >http://www.funet.fi/pub/sci/bio/life/plants/pteridophyta/sphenopsida/equisetace >ae/equisetum/index.html > >Equisetum arvense L. >Field Horsetail, Common Horsetail >EQUISETACEAE >Click here to view trophophore. >Bangham Road Woods, Jackson County, MI >Photo by Dan Skean, April 1992 Closeup. >http://www.albion.edu/fac/biol/skean/equiarpg.htm > > >This page describes properties, phytochemicals, and uses of horsetail, >equisetum arvense. Also a silhouette illustration. >http://www.rain-tree.com/horsetail.htm > >Horsetails >http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/h/hortai39.html >Equisetum: The Search for a Polycrest >http://www.lyghtforce.com/HomeopathyOnline/Issue4/bohle.htm > >The Herb Garden >The Joy of Growing and Using Herbs >Horsetail and House Leeks >by Rachel McLeod >"I first read about this remedy in an article about a farmer who had had >great success with injuries on the farm – to a calf, a filly and >herself! I can add our own experience to that, as horsetail helped the >successful and fast healing of a widespread skin rash on my German shepherd." >http://www.life.ca/nl/58/herbs.html > >Short blurb and nice green photos >http://www.csubak.edu/fact/Horsetail.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 08:12:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA04708 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:12:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA09699; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:56:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from halifax.chebucto.ns.ca (chebucto.ns.Ca [192.75.95.75]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA09546 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:54:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from av204@localhost by halifax.chebucto.ns.ca id <33350-674>; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:56:42 -0400 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:56:42 -0400 (AST) Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Joan Macdonald To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: RE: Calf rearing w/out the mamma In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990322113726.00c3d100@pop-server> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: av204@chebucto.ns.ca X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 332 Hi Phyl; On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, you wrote: > March 22, 1999 - Hawaii > > Dear BD Friends, > > Here's an update on our dear little calf, Monique (little Mo) > We put a few drops each of essential oils: self heal (for general healing), > chamomile (for digestion), and primrose (for estrangement from mother) > twice a day in her milk. We also have started to give her homeopathic Thuja > (30x) to help her bodies recover their own wisdom after commercial care and > innoculants, etc. > My first feeling is: Phyl..are you able to dowse or use kinesiology?? You could then ask her, what she would like at this moment, what she needs for her diet and supplements.. follow her progress and make any changes daily... I am so hoping you can, then you would be able to tell us what she would like, and what would help her grow and feel good. Another consideration is Nux vomica, a most often used remedy establish equilibrum after past medications (even herbs), changes in environment, foods, etc. When you read about Nux in the Materia Medica,a keynote is stomach disturbances..as the body begins to detox toxic by-products out of the system, Nux is often used to help the digestive tract cope with the irritation caused as the by-products pass through. > Additional Problems > ----------------------------- > She has an increasingly harsh skin condition - mange and/or ring worm which > needs attention. If any one has suggestion PLEASE pass them along. Mo may go through times when her coat may become rough, harsh, dry, skin flakes off, etc.. The past toxins have to come out and the epidermis is just one avenue, the respiratory system, digestive tract, urinary system all are other avenues.. At times she may give off odors..and any homeopathic vet would say good...good..what did they smell like. In the past we had posts on ringworm in cattle..It only is apparent on animals which are weakened and not healthy... Tree tea oil was mentioned as an external applicant...I hesitate to recommend anything as Mo's system could be overwhelmed by doing too much at once... She could tell you exactly what would be applicable for her for the ringworm/ mange.. > Also, we would surely appreciate if anyone knows good sources for organic > milk substitute, feed, suppliments, medications, info, etc. > Until she is ready to get off the milk replacer, good stomach flora should be encouraged, perhaps digestive enzymes, bacteria. I do so hope you can ask Mo..what she thinks of her new home and what she would like for you to do for her.. I have the feeling that her presence is doing so much for you... Say hello to her from the entire BDNOW list.. --Joan Macdonald Halifax, Nova Scotia email: av204@chebucto.ns.ca From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 23 11:30:55 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25310 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:30:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA11750; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:29:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11689 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:29:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from digisys.net (modem132.digisys.net [205.138.110.181]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18040; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:29:26 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F7C1E7.2D473651@digisys.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:31:35 -0700 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L , "bdnow@envirolink.org" Subject: Intern looking for work References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 1204 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 333 I just received the following letter from a young person looking for farm work. "I am writing to you because I'm looking for a farm to work at cultivating herbs, vegetables, fruits, and grains in the Northwest. I've worked on several organic farms in the past including a permaculture, organic garden near Spokane, Washington at the Bear Tribe. I completed an apprenticeship in herbal medicine with Rosemary Gladstar last fall and am looking for more experience cultivating herbs in particular, though all aspects of food cultivation interest me. I'm hoping to eventually buy land with some friends where we can raise herbs, fruits, vegetables and grains. I'm 31 years old at the moment, in good physical shape from running and cutting lots of firewood, and currently work part-time restoring erosion damage done by logging to a friend of mine's land. I have also taught wilderness survival skill classes and done landscaping work in the Ithacea, New York area. Sincerely, Roland Von derMuhl 84 Weston Rd. Box 107A Berkshire, NY 13736 PS: I also completed a four month internship in biodynamic/organic gardening at Host Valley Educational Center in Dexter, Oregon from March 1993 to July, 1994." From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 11:42:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08712 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:42:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13566; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:31:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12772 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:26:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (modem132.digisys.net [205.138.110.181]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18040; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:29:26 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F7C1E7.2D473651@digisys.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:31:35 -0700 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L , "bdnow@envirolink.org" Subject: Intern looking for work References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 334 I just received the following letter from a young person looking for farm work. "I am writing to you because I'm looking for a farm to work at cultivating herbs, vegetables, fruits, and grains in the Northwest. I've worked on several organic farms in the past including a permaculture, organic garden near Spokane, Washington at the Bear Tribe. I completed an apprenticeship in herbal medicine with Rosemary Gladstar last fall and am looking for more experience cultivating herbs in particular, though all aspects of food cultivation interest me. I'm hoping to eventually buy land with some friends where we can raise herbs, fruits, vegetables and grains. I'm 31 years old at the moment, in good physical shape from running and cutting lots of firewood, and currently work part-time restoring erosion damage done by logging to a friend of mine's land. I have also taught wilderness survival skill classes and done landscaping work in the Ithacea, New York area. Sincerely, Roland Von derMuhl 84 Weston Rd. Box 107A Berkshire, NY 13736 PS: I also completed a four month internship in biodynamic/organic gardening at Host Valley Educational Center in Dexter, Oregon from March 1993 to July, 1994." From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 11:42:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08720 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:42:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13728; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:31:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12910 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:27:32 -0500 (EST) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hMZJa07851 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:29:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <201e9e17.36f7c17a@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:29:46 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: OFF: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 335 In a message dated 99-03-22 14:45:38 EST, you write: << 1999. This year!! This year we have the Big Cross on Aug. 11, in conjunction with a solar eclipse. What better way to hide, perhaps, says Ahriman, behind that deception, as well as the 1999 vx 1998?! >> Precisely. That is the cross (ing), the visible "point" in the sky within the continuum. This cross looks like a Templar Cross too. I don't have any real verification for this, but felt that the space from this point backwards to the harmonic convergence and the same amount forward is of particular intensity. Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 11:43:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08753 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:43:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13960; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from yancey.main.nc.us (yancey.main.nc.us [208.133.41.194]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13269 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:29:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from donnas (ppp14.yancey.main.nc.us [208.133.41.208]) by yancey.main.nc.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18244 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:33:23 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01be7549$97eb5f80$d02985d0@donnas> From: "donnas" To: Subject: Re: Study: Horsetail info Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:22:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 336 Pam, Do you know of a source for plants for equisetum arvense. I have seen other equisetum (hymale) sold for pondscaping....... but not even Richters offers arvense as a live plant.....only as dried herb. donaterra From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 11:59:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09232 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:59:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17115; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from connect1.reach.net (root@connect1.reach.net [204.50.58.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16841 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:47:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.50.58.70] (A39.reach.net [204.50.58.70]) by connect1.reach.net (8.9.1-wasp/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA18996 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:49:46 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:49:46 -0500 X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Re: Study: Horsetail info Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 337 >Pam, >Do you know of a source for plants for equisetum arvense. > >I have seen other equisetum (hymale) sold for pondscaping....... but not >even Richters offers arvense as a live plant.....only as dried herb. >donaterra Thanks for starting this thread on Horsetail, Pam. Where can one get seeds or plants, then? I noticed the Richter's lapse. I've got a lot of nettle seedlings growing well. So...how does one get hold of horsetail, other than the dried prep material? Geoff Heinricks Prince Edward Co., Ontario From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 12:05:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09364 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:05:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18297; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17941 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:53:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 7402 invoked from network); 23 Mar 1999 09:56:04 -0700 Received: from ts2-06.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO cyberhighway.net) (209.161.18.157) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 23 Mar 1999 09:56:04 -0700 Message-ID: <36F7C7AC.D556BC70@cyberhighway.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:56:14 -0700 From: Pam DeTray Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: White Moon Dancing X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Re: Spirit on the List References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 338 Jane Sherry/wcdev/US wrote: > Our culture values leisure only as an excuse to get them to consume more > useless, souless goods for the sake of the ever increasing market growth. > So, I think it's forums like this one that need to keep a balanced approach > to biodynamics, by not just offering material solutions but to be > emboldened to speak directly to the soul (more frequently than many members > already do). In spite of what you may perceive as unjust criticism, it has > been my experience on this list, that has very much provided much food for > thought, for practical application as well as for my spirit! Hey, I just > want to hear more about Devas! Jane, Remember last year, when you stirred preps for the first time? You couldn't use it all on your houseplants, and you and Curtis went outside your apartment building and gave a little part of NYC some BD. I'm sure the deva there noticed. I'm seeing a correlation here. Much "normal" practice of faith involves active participation--attending worship services, doing good works, and uttering prayers, often of the "Please God, do this" variety. With this kind of setup, in spite of tremendous faith and belief, it's easy for ego to take over the show. What's the point? Put the same person in a situation of listening to the Being he/she is worshipping. This is a major leap for many people, but it can lead to integration of the ego into service of the Being. In other words, the person can then walk in Spirit, and more easily fit into the overall flow. (It doesn't happen with one or two sessions, and I do not claim to be fully actualized in this. Figuring out if a desired action is from my ego or inspired is a constant dilemma for me, and I'm starting to understand more fully how eating BD food will help me in this. But I do notice a difference when I allow regular time for meditation, and so do others.) I think it's the same thing with the land we care for. Instead of just looking at it and deciding to do this or that (ego-centered), we need to ask it what it requires from us, then stop and listen. Not just once, for a grand plan, but on a constant basis. (To me, dowsing is a manifesting of this listening activity, and I appreciate Joan's frequent reminders to dowse for answers.) When you stirred the prep that you shared outside your apartment, you were Listening. I don't think the location that received the prep was an accident--I think that during your stirring/listening time, the deva took full advantage to help get that prep where it was needed. And I think if you continue listening, you'll continue to be led to further acts of healing. Imagine what could happen between you and the other New Yorkers practicing BD on the soil between the buildings and the pavement! Remember last year, when Ferdinand said that when we stir, we're making time? That has all kinds of ramifications that I don't feel competent to address, but I do understand that 20 minutes spent listening can be worth a week of work. There's nothing worse than putting your energy (and your back!) into a big project, only to step back later and wonder why you did it there instead of over there. That's my Virgo-rising practical take on creating time. I know it goes much, much deeper. I do believe that every time we listen and obey, the land and its spirit grow a little stronger. And that obedience opens our spirituality a little more, and makes it a little easier to hear the next time we listen. I think the fact that all of us here are open to BD, and willing to learn and practice it, speaks to a great deal of spirituality here. Pam DeTray psdetray@cyberhighway.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 12:08:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09435 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:08:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18872; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:57:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18587 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:56:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 8229 invoked from network); 23 Mar 1999 09:59:00 -0700 Received: from ts2-06.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO cyberhighway.net) (209.161.18.157) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 23 Mar 1999 09:59:00 -0700 Message-ID: <36F7C85D.22827318@cyberhighway.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:59:11 -0700 From: Pam DeTray Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: White Moon Dancing X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Study: Horsetail info References: <000f01be7549$97eb5f80$d02985d0@donnas> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 339 I would ask someone local that knows the native plants. Maybe ask at the extension office--some of the sites I looked at last night were to help farmers control it on their land. Pam donnas wrote: > > Pam, > Do you know of a source for plants for equisetum arvense. > > I have seen other equisetum (hymale) sold for pondscaping....... but not > even Richters offers arvense as a live plant.....only as dried herb. > donaterra From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 12:26:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09805 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:26:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22109; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:15:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from sarnia.xcelco.on.ca (sar-alpha.xcelco.on.ca [209.167.188.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22032 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:15:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from haggerty (modem-77.xcelco.on.ca [205.206.216.77]) by sarnia.xcelco.on.ca (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA10333 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:16:57 GMT From: "Ken, Jean Huffman" To: Subject: Re: Calf rearing w/out the mamma Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:17:09 -0800 Message-ID: <01be756a$213a3ac0$4dd8cecd@haggerty> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 340 Regarding your skin condition with Little Mo. Ringworm is not a worm at all but a form of fungus that infects less than healthy skin. Mange is caused by mites and or lice. also an indication of less than ideal health. As I can see you are doing evrything right to bring little Mo to optimum health so i found some recommendations from International herbalist Juliette de Baïracli Levy Scab This word covers many disorders of the skin and may be purely mange, a form of ringworm or caused by lice infestation.; but in all cases the treatment is similar except in very cold weather, immediate clipping and washing with soapy water. Then rubbing with a solution of the following. Brew tobacco ( 1 pound) powder, flaked garlic ( four handfuls) and leaves of the wild geranium (two handfuls) brewed for six hours. also application of lemon juice for ringworm. both can be applied every few days until skin is perfectly clear. Also recommended disinfecting of stable with eggwhite and liquid lime whitewash. The practical stock doctor also makes the following recommendations. Tincture of Iodine applied once a day for 3-5 days. terpentine or kerosene also are suggested ( I'm not so sure about these) also carbolic acid and sweet oil ointment. (1:20 mixture) or sulpher ointment Hope this is a help jean From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 13:19:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12109 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:19:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01405; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:07:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f204.hotmail.com [209.185.130.114]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00877 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:04:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 35096 invoked by uid 0); 23 Mar 1999 18:07:05 -0000 Message-ID: <19990323180705.35094.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.230.25.27 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:07:05 PST X-Originating-IP: [205.230.25.27] From: "Connie Gilbert" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: cow horns Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:07:05 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 341 Does anyone know where I can get some cow horns? I really don't want to get them from a slaughterhouse if I can find a better source. I almost had a couple, a neighbors bull died of natural causes, but he decided he wanted the skull and horns for a decoration. Lynnaea Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 13:21:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12184 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:21:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01872; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:10:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.hurontel.on.ca (mail.hurontel.on.ca [205.206.182.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01808 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:10:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from MERLINFR (clifford-154.wcl.on.ca [216.46.132.154]) by mail.hurontel.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA18774 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:24:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:24:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903231824.NAA18774@mail.hurontel.on.ca> X-Sender: merlinvf@mail.wcl.on.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Joe Von Frankenberg Subject: Re: BD-Dairyfarm for sale!! Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 342 At 18:45 3/22/99 -0600, you wrote: >>Hello >>This 200acre dairyfarm has been biodyn,operated since 1988,right after we >>immigrated from swizerland.We established a healthy and succsessfull >>40cowheard (with names and all the TLC you can imagine.)Those cows even had >>real HORNES!! >>But.. there is always a but isn`t it so? My own health made an end to all of >>this beauty,and since we were unable to find some realtime partners the cows >>and quota had to be sold. >>Now in over 30 jears since I started bdfarming,it has caught on pretty well >>in peoples minds,it seams quit "chik" to have some organic milk for the pets >>and kids.(That is if you can get the kids to actually eat that stuff instead >>of chips) >>But "where have all the cowboys gone?"Is there someone out there that >>actually wants to >>DO this kind of work? >>And while I`m at it already,do we really need more lectures on how to farm >>biodynamics? >>Or is all this lecturing just another excuse for not having to do the legwork? >>Anyway now we are getting to the point where selling seams the only option >>and we know, >>that this farm is worthwhile saving for BDfarming! >>And yes it kosts money to buy a dairifarm in ontario,but not all people >>interestet in >>biodynamics are poor? To keep it short while I`m boiling is not easy! >>Good advice could be of help,good action could solve! >>J.v.Frankenberg >>Joe von Frankenberg >>rr1 Elmwood >>N0G 1S0 ONTARIO CA > >Hi Joe: > >I am not sure I understood your posting. > >Do you want to sell your farm ?, How much are you asking for it and what assets are part of the deal ? > >If you need a partner, what do you want from her/him in terms of capital, work and experience. > >Regards > > >Guillermo Romero I. >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > >Actually the circle sun farm is lokatet in ontario canada. >I`m aware that this list is not a real estate marketplace,but we are somewhat >desperate. >Our hope is to find a buyer (or sponsor)that wants to keep this farm in >the realm of BD-farming. >There is so many possibillities that circle sun farm offers,that it really >depends on the initiative of the interestet party. >Circle Sun Farm indicates C_ommunity S_upportet F_arm!! >I`m quit willing to give more information and bio. but we don`t want to end up >discussing all the pathways and not find some active interest in this situation >Tell me your opinion >joe Joe von Frankenberg rr1 Elmwood N0G 1S0 ONTARIO CN From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 13:24:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12240 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:24:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02470; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:13:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02072 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:11:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp325.cy-net.net [208.21.195.134]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25392 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:14:28 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7524.19BAD660@FLYLO>; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:55:52 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7524.19BAD660@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: Spirit Of The Land Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:13:26 -0600 Encoding: 32 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 343 Sybil asked me in a private message if I'd go ask my garden soil what it needed when it 'took' from my hands. (RE the 'Show Of Hands' thread.) Besides giving me a horrid case of poison ivy (roots weren't all grapevines I was digging around in), it seems to miss the animals. This is in an area we had once (6+ yrs ago) fenced off for pasture hogs. Since then it's been a yard mostly, huge pecan trees, 100+ yr old grape vines, that the hogs never bothered except to enjoy the windfalls. The pecan trees used to shine from the hogs scratching their backs, now they look mossy and dull. (Maybe treehugging only works if you're naked, and watch the poison ivy!) When the llamas were fenced in my old garden area, I needed new ground and incorporated this abandoned side yard. Now it seems to enjoy the attention, but seems to still miss (yearn for) some livestock. We had let a big round bale of hay decompose under the pecan tree and the last vestige of that is totally gone now. I fluffed up the leaves and soil and could 'feel' a visible sigh of relief almost, as the crusting was scratched. As I can't run goats nor anything else in the garden, should I concentrate on using preps? and if so ,which ones? Another question for Ferdy now that he's not on-list. We set out 2 peach saplings on Valentine's Day and one has budded out already. The other is a later type and still dormant. I didn't save the post about the salve he mixes to paint the trunks but did anyone else? Should I only use it on the dormant one? manure, silica clay, and some other things. I don't think we have any clay on the property, would 'foreign matter' matter? thanks for any input on this topic. martha who is going out to apologize for taking all that poison ivy resin from the soil (grin). From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 13:30:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12434 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:30:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03581; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:19:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03337 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:18:41 -0500 (EST) From: JHatf18942@aol.com Received: from JHatf18942@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hNFCa03706 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:21:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:21:00 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: cow poop Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 86 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 344 I seem to recall this being asked lately but perhaps I missed the answer. As I am once again in need of some quality manure for my compost I begin to hear words like dewormer, antibiotics, etc. What questions should I ask of the cow's owner about these things. Or what questions should I ask the cow. Can anyone speak to this? Thanks. Greetings from the U.P. Jeff Hatfield From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 13:37:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12517 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:37:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04892; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:26:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04114 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:22:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp325.cy-net.net [208.21.195.134]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27026 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:25:34 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7525.A5028C80@FLYLO>; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:06:55 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7525.A5028C80@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Calf rearing w/out the mamma (keroscene thread) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:06:48 -0600 Encoding: 42 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 345 on use of keroscene. Old time farmers used it a lot in wound care. The only thing it will do is coat the area, keeping it oily and moist and deter flies. Not something I'd want to use by choice, but if you're in the barn and an accident occurs, sometimes this will keep things ok till something better can be applied. It doesn't burn either (surprisingly, something that smells so nasty doesn't burn) so the animal won't react strongly to application. It will smother out the mange mite if mange and is effective against ringworm due to the same oily smothering. But it's not something I'd want on the skin for long periods. Try distilling comfrey leaves in salad oil for a better way to smother skin 'midges'. Be sure the surface is clean or comfrey will create an anaerobic condition that can be worse than the original affliction. It's the allantoin in Comfrey that works as the healer. Cooking the leaves break this (mucilige consistency) and renders it useless, so just gently warm till the oils are bright green. martha (I put comfrey oils in my goat milk soap and right now it's the only thing that is having a positive result on the poison ivy areas.) The essential oil in this soap is High John The Conqueror and it's helping because it's also from another vining pest, morning glory root. And it smells heavenly, MUCH better than keroscene! I went overboard on superfatting this batch so I can't sell it as it gets gummy (cocoa butter and olive oil), but it's a great skin soother. If her skin shows no improvement I'll be glad to send you a 'cake'. Another thought, check her temperature often. I'm unsure what normal cow temps are but goats are 102* F - 103* F. If she's been sick and spiking temperature, her hair could fall out in handfuls. You may be seeing the tail end (or beginning) of this healing process. Usually starts around the 'heat points', between rear legs, under and behind forelegs, around the eyes and nose, etc. I don't think this is the problem because the skin underneath usually looks bright pink and healthy. Take your thumbnail and scratch down the afflicted area lightly. If a red crease wells up or if she actually bleeds, it's mange mites bringing blood to the skin surface. Hope this helps! Martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 13:55:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12916 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:55:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08453; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:44:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08072 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:42:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 9754 invoked from network); 23 Mar 1999 11:45:09 -0700 Received: from ts2-18.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO cyberhighway.net) (209.161.18.169) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 23 Mar 1999 11:45:09 -0700 Message-ID: <36F7E13C.4A64B3A6@cyberhighway.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:45:20 -0700 From: Pam DeTray Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: White Moon Dancing X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" Subject: Celtic salt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 346 Has anyone on this list used salt on their land? The gifted young man who visited and gave me a reading last week not only revealed the name of my deva. When I asked what else I could do for my land, the deva suggested it was lacking in salt and I should give it some. I was already planning to apply kelp for the sea minerals. Could this also be considered "salt"? A final question. I did a web search on Celtic salt the other night, and turned up a page on making colloidal silver, but there was no mention of Celtic salt on that page. Can anyone enlighten me here? Thanks, Pam DeTray psdetray@cyberhighway.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 14:33:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13776 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:33:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15053; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:21:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14750 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:20:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.29]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:24:31 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:22:57 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Celtic salt Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 347 the Celtic Salt is available through available from The Grain and Salt Society at 1-800-867-7258. I should warn you that if y'all think Will Brinton is expensive, you should forget about that salt, though I do advise eating it!! But in quantities to put on your land, you'd spent a fortune!! But buy some to try eating it because it feels as though it's good for you! You can taste and smell all the minerals! It's nothing like any salt I've ever used. First introduced to it through my wondrous Roxbury csa, who seem to always have a line on good stuff to eat! Best, Jane From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 14:41:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13938 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:41:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA16672; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:30:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA16112 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.185] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.185]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.11.13.11.10) with ESMTP id <0F92003OD63XF7@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:33:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:39:51 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Study: Horsetail info In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA16229 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 348 > >Where can one get seeds or plants, then? I noticed the Richter's lapse. >I've got a lot of nettle seedlings growing well. So...how does one get hold >of horsetail, other than the dried prep material? > >Geoff Heinricks >Prince Edward Co., Ontario Dear Geoff: The Equisetum species reproduces both sexually, throught the production of spores, and asexually throught the production of tubers and stolons. The rhizomes run to the sides of the plant, underwater or in clay like soil. Sorry no seeds here. The herb is so common in wetlands that I bet you would not have any trouble finding some wild to be transplanted to your own farm-garden. Where I live horsetail grows year round and I can always get it fresh and wild (organic) for about $ 0.25 USD per Kilo (2 pounds plus). IMHO the fresh tea works better than the dried form to make 508. For one thing, it ferments faster (if that is your prefered method for making 508) and have a better odor. I don't even bother to keep a plant in my place. If you still want to purchase a plant, try the herb nursery companies in your area, not the seed companies. Regards Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 15:10:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14530 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:10:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21420; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:58:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21060 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:56:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp325.cy-net.net [208.21.195.134]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06219 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:59:26 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7532.AEA954A0@FLYLO>; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:40:15 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7532.AEA954A0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: cow poop Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:14:40 -0600 Encoding: 36 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 349 If the cows are 'highly managed', dairy cattle, feedlot beef, etc, they are going to have lots of foreign chemicals in their feed and bloodstream. But, if you can locate a rancher who just has pasture cattle, only hauls a round bale of hay out to them once or twice a week, doesn't seem to mess with them much, these are your best bet. Tell him you're making manure tea for your compost and ask if you can collect cow pats from his field. They usually will harrow these into the soil to keep growing conditions level and wouldn't mind your taking a truckload off, usually. Check around a tree grove where the herd might be apt to doze. The ground just outside the sleeping quarters is often littered with poop and urine soaked soil. Also a standing stock pond, for some reasons, cattle delight in drinking up the stagnant water while her neighbor is peeing right in the pond. The banks are often littered with droppings so the water will be rather charged in the pond also. The less 'managed' the herd, the more likely they haven't had dewormers and a sure bet they haven't had antibiotics or growth 'enhancements'. martha -----Original Message----- From: JHatf18942@aol.com [SMTP:JHatf18942@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 12:21 PM To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: cow poop I seem to recall this being asked lately but perhaps I missed the answer. As I am once again in need of some quality manure for my compost I begin to hear words like dewormer, antibiotics, etc. What questions should I ask of the cow's owner about these things. Or what questions should I ask the cow. Can anyone speak to this? Thanks. Greetings from the U.P. Jeff Hatfield From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 15:28:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14901 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:28:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24645; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:17:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24394 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:15:25 -0500 (EST) From: HILAWRIGHT@aol.com Received: from HILAWRIGHT@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hYALa04832 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:17:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6bf7ea5b.36f7f6e9@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:17:45 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Calf rearing w/out the mamma Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 118 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 350 What about the Bach Flower Remedies? Rescue Remedy is a wonderful all-purpose healer - shock, fright, injury, visits to the dentist (I never sit in that chair without it) You can also apply it (or the cream) to skin. A friend of mine once lit a match and the burning head snapped off and fell on his jeans. He picked it up in his fingers and burned himself. I immediately put a couple of drops of RR on his fingers (and also a drop or two on his tongue for the shock) Next day: no trace of a burn. So it may help the ringworm. The Walnut one is good for helping adjust to new circumstances and surroundings. I give houseplants a drop or two when I pot them on. Just a few drops in her milk. Good luck. May she thrive in every way. Hilary From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 16:53:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA16660 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:53:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09509; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:37:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09087 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.161.38]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990323213844.FTSE5117602.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:38:44 +1200 Message-ID: <36F809F8.12DC@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:39:04 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: off travelling Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 351 I am off travelling for the coming month and so regrettably will be unsubscribing for this period. I can be contacted personally during this time on garudas@yahoo.com. cheers Glen Atkinson. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 17:01:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA16968 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:01:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22246; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:01:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22021 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:01:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from slip202-135-86-38.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-38.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.38]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA57676 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:03:49 GMT Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:03:49 GMT Message-Id: <199903232003.UAA57676@out4.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: Celtic salt Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 352 Hi Pam, At 11:45 AM 3/23/99 -0700, you wrote: > I did a web search on Celtic salt the other night, and >turned up a page on making colloidal silver, but there was no mention of >Celtic salt on that page. Can anyone enlighten me here? Depending on what your search criteria were, it could have given you pages with "salt", ie without the "Celtic" part of the search. Otherwise, "nothing is perfect". BTW, a very small quantity of salt can be used when making colloidal silver - but it needs to be very pure Sodium Chloride. Supermarket salt or sea salt have many trace elements which would create poisonous Silver compounds in colloidal silver manufacture. Lynton From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 17:04:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA17149 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:04:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11776; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:52:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11682 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:52:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts1-11.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.199.12]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with SMTP id NAA05589 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:55:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990323145103.0095a850@mail.kootenay.com> X-Sender: woodyw@mail.kootenay.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:52:12 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Woody Subject: Spirit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 353 Robert Watson and All: Robert wrote: <> That's IT! What a happy juxtaposition of words, "release and awe..." Release from the oh-so compelling, treacherous bonds of materialism and awe...childlike wonderment that it does work... Yesterday evening with a couple of friends we did a slightly belated BD#500 (horn manure) spraying of gardens, landscape, and paddock areas here at Aurora Farm. Halfway through the process a flock of 30-some Trumpeter Swans flew over, the racket of their trumpeting contrasting with their graceful flight. Two were black. We stood there agape. Yes, we know it works...it doesn't much matter that we don't know how, as long as we're suitably grateful. Woody At 10:29 PM 3/23/99 +1000, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Hugh Lovel >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 2:36 >Subject: OFF: Re: Spirit on the List > > >>Jane Sherry writes: >> >> >>>Dear Friends on Bd-Now, >>> >>>In all this discussion of Monsanto and even of building up the soils, >there >>>has been comparatively little talk of the spiritual component of this work >>>that is biodynamics. > > >Once the BD principles start to work for you.i.e your farm is productive >without the addition of NPK or organic substitutes you have to start >thinking -what is happening? All of your materialistic mechanical theories >have to be questioned and perhaps abandoned. How can such a small amount of >prepared 500 create such fertility , for year after year . >What I am trying to say is that the spiritual side of biodynamics isn't >something you can talk about intellectually , it's rather something that you >experience - it grows on you. >While you do not know how it works you know it does work and in this there >is release and awe. > > >Robert Watson > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 17:10:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA17494 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:10:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12638; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:59:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA12469 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:58:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.167] (pm3shep2-163-109.intrepid.net [209.190.163.109]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA16673; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:55:41 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:52:10 -0500 To: martin@seattle2000.com From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Do YOU have this problem with BD NOW? Cc: "Dr. Andrew Lorand" , Mark Moodie , Joan Macdonald , Jane Sherry , Steven McFadden , Hugh Lovel , sally & robert watson , Michael Roboz , Rambler , beanman@ix.netcom.com, Intergalactic Garage , bdnow@envirolink.org, "P. Hironimus" , "Julie M." Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 354 Dear Friends - I have attempted to make it clear to Martin that I will hand post messages for Martin if he will send them to me at igg@igg.com. In the meantime, I am not receiving messages from him at bdnow@envirolink.org. Not all problems are easily solved. It will take time to untangle this one. Cooperation and comraderie in the meantime w.b. most greatly appreciated. Thanks -Allan Balliett moderator BD Now! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 17:14:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA17801 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:14:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26192; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:26:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25987 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.185] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.185]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.11.13.11.10) with ESMTP id <0F92006JY8BSH2@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:21:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:27:41 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: BD-Dairyfarm for sale!! In-reply-to: <199903231824.NAA18774@mail.hurontel.on.ca> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id PAA26017 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 355 >At 18:45 3/22/99 -0600, you wrote: >>>Hello >>>This 200acre dairyfarm has been biodyn,operated since 1988,right after we >>>immigrated from swizerland.We established a healthy and succsessfull >>>40cowheard (with names and all the TLC you can imagine.)Those cows even had >>>real HORNES!! >>>But.. there is always a but isn`t it so? My own health made an end to all of >>>this beauty,and since we were unable to find some realtime partners the cows >>>and quota had to be sold. >>>Now in over 30 jears since I started bdfarming,it has caught on pretty well >>>in peoples minds,it seams quit "chik" to have some organic milk for the pets >>>and kids.(That is if you can get the kids to actually eat that stuff instead >>>of chips) >>>But "where have all the cowboys gone?"Is there someone out there that >>>actually wants to >>>DO this kind of work? >>>And while I`m at it already,do we really need more lectures on how to farm >>>biodynamics? >>>Or is all this lecturing just another excuse for not having to do the legwork? >>>Anyway now we are getting to the point where selling seams the only option >>>and we know, >>>that this farm is worthwhile saving for BDfarming! >>>And yes it kosts money to buy a dairifarm in ontario,but not all people >>>interestet in >>>biodynamics are poor? To keep it short while I`m boiling is not easy! >>>Good advice could be of help,good action could solve! >>>J.v.Frankenberg >>>Joe von Frankenberg >>>rr1 Elmwood >>>N0G 1S0 ONTARIO CA >> >>Hi Joe: >> >>I am not sure I understood your posting. >> >>Do you want to sell your farm ?, How much are you asking for it and what >assets are part of the deal ? >> >>If you need a partner, what do you want from her/him in terms of capital, >work and experience. >> >>Regards >> >> >>Guillermo Romero I. >>Comala, Colima, MEXICO >> >> >>Actually the circle sun farm is lokatet in ontario canada. >>I`m aware that this list is not a real estate marketplace,but we are somewhat >>desperate. >>Our hope is to find a buyer (or sponsor)that wants to keep this farm in >>the realm of BD-farming. >>There is so many possibillities that circle sun farm offers,that it really >>depends on the initiative of the interestet party. >>Circle Sun Farm indicates C_ommunity S_upportet F_arm!! >>I`m quit willing to give more information and bio. but we don`t want to end up >>discussing all the pathways and not find some active interest in this situation >>Tell me your opinion >>joe >Joe von Frankenberg >rr1 Elmwood >N0G 1S0 ONTARIO CN Thanks Joe: I work in environmental issues (ag included) but I make my living ($$$) from real state. My humble opinion is that you need to establish a baseline for negociations (posibibilities) to open up. I agree with you that there is more than a price (for selling) and a whole set of operational conditions (for finding a parter or sponsor), but I guess that within the framework of a market or near market economy, that is the place to start. Regards and best of luck. Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 17:17:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA17866 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:17:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13664; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13070 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:01:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.167] (pm3shep2-163-109.intrepid.net [209.190.163.109]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA18639 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:04:47 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000f01be7549$97eb5f80$d02985d0@donnas> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:07:15 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: Study: Horsetail info Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 356 >Pam, >Do you know of a source for plants for equisetum arvense. > >I have seen other equisetum (hymale) sold for pondscaping....... but not >even Richters offers arvense as a live plant.....only as dried herb. >donaterra You can order it 'in 10inch pots' from us at Claymont (out of Bruce Blevin's own prep garden), or pick it up at Claymont when you come down for classes or festivals. Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA Charles Town, WV Temporary Business address and phone number POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 (304) 876-2373 (815) 550-6067 FAX Forwarding From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 17:29:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA18204 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:29:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA15774; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:17:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15486 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:15:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ihug.co.nz (p19-max11.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.17.117.147]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02918 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:18:26 +1200 Message-ID: <36F811C7.C4CB3E4@ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:12:23 +1200 From: I & K Buckingham Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Calf rearing w/out the mamma References: <4.1.19990322113726.00c3d100@pop-server> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 357 Phyl Dwyer wrote: > Her "home" is a fenced in stall between two horses. During the day she >can come and go between the paddock and her stall at will What are the conditions like? With respect to muddy areas etc. > Most of her exploration and mock grazing only happens if I'm around, >especially after her morning feeding followed by charming frolicking. We always ensure that our calves have good hay available to chew on. Some eat it more than others. > She has an increasingly harsh skin condition - mange and/or ring worm >which needs attention. Is this all over her body? On feet , head etc. Phyl, too much advice can be just as bad as too little. So my 2c worth :>) Now that you have her feeding and on the road to recovery I would let nature take a hand for a while. As Joan has stated let her system recover before perhaps upsetting the apple cart with more remedies. The mange / ringworm is only an indication of her total system, and I would expect this to disappear as she comes back on an even keel. By keeping an eye on what goes into the calf and what comes out will give you a very good lead to her health. On our farm, if we have a calf miss one feed I would do nothing but check her temperature and the rear end. ( By taking a hold of the base of the ear or the muzzle will give you an indication of body temperature as these areas soon heat up or cool down if things are going wrong) If there is fever or chill I may give a homoeopathic remedy. If by the second feed the animal will still not feed then I will treat. Just as a side issue. If other people are getting a new-born calf from sale yards / undesirable sources I would suggest using the homoeopathic remedy E-coli 30c. If possible give at birth, 24, 48, 72 hours. It is not uncommon for calves to get scours from such places and this will aid in the prevention or at least lessen the affects of the scour. Regards Ian Buckingham Maungatawhiri New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 18:16:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA19452 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:16:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20498; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:01:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA17459 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:29:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 10845 invoked from network); 23 Mar 1999 15:32:02 -0700 Received: from ts2-02.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO cyberhighway.net) (209.161.18.153) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 23 Mar 1999 15:32:02 -0700 Message-ID: <36F8166A.8B8CA290@cyberhighway.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:32:14 -0700 From: Pam DeTray Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: White Moon Dancing X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Do YOU have this problem with BD NOW? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 358 Not sure I'm understanding--are his posts just not getting through envirolink? All of mine have been going through just fine. Pam Intergalactic Garage wrote: > > Dear Friends - > > I have attempted to make it clear to Martin that I will hand post messages > for Martin if he will send them to me at igg@igg.com. In the meantime, I am > not receiving messages from him at bdnow@envirolink.org. Not all problems > are easily solved. It will take time to untangle this one. Cooperation and > comraderie in the meantime w.b. most greatly appreciated. > > Thanks > > -Allan Balliett > moderator > BD Now! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 18:16:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA19501 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:16:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20560; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:02:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from halifax.chebucto.ns.ca (chebucto.ns.Ca [192.75.95.75]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19603 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:55:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from av204@localhost by halifax.chebucto.ns.ca id <33584-674>; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:56:18 -0400 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:56:17 -0400 (AST) Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Joan Macdonald To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" Subject: Re: Celtic salt In-Reply-To: <36F7E13C.4A64B3A6@cyberhighway.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: av204@chebucto.ns.ca X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 359 Pam; Perhaps you could ask what type of salt would be best, and when you ask..ask if it could be made homeopathically into a prep...Perhaps placed in the compost... Timing would be good to know..optimum time of year..maybe only sections need it...one time application??? When you think of it you could make quite a list of questions, you would like answers to... There is natural salt which comes from the Salt Lakes in Utah..which is offered free choice to animals..that may be applicable... Hope this helps a little.. --Joan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 18:17:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA19518 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:17:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20601; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19695 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:55:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max19-5.stc.net [208.210.143.4]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA11531 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:58:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990323180705.35094.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:25:06 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: cow horns Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 360 >Does anyone know where I can get some cow horns? I really don't want to >get them from a slaughterhouse if I can find a better source. I almost >had a couple, a neighbors bull died of natural causes, but he decided he >wanted the skull and horns for a decoration. > >Lynnaea > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Bull horns wouldn't do. They aren't nearly as heavy and thus as resonant as cows' horns. You may obtain these from the Josephine Porter Institute of Applied Biodynamics (JPI) P. O. Box 133, Woolwine, VA 24185, 540 930 2463. Best Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." --Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 18:18:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA19554 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:18:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20691; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:02:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20422 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:01:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp317.cy-net.net [208.21.195.126]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA32619 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:04:06 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE754C.4D0833A0@FLYLO>; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:43:38 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE754C.4D0833A0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: RE Spirit Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:43:25 -0600 Encoding: 17 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 361 Until Woody brought up the Trumpeter Swans, I had forgotten about this. Sunday we were working in the goat pens, glorious day, everyone dancing around us as we raked and shoveled. The work is usually pretty unpleasant but John and I both were in 'lighthearted' moods because of the goats and it was going pretty smoothly. We saw a big blue heron fly up out of the stock pond but it was circling, not flying in a straight line as they normally do when moving feeding grounds. She was waiting on her mate! He came up soaring and cackling and chasing her. And she wasn't trying to fly very fast to outdistance him either. They dove to our small stock pond (about 100 yards from where we were working) and proceeded to preen each other most of the afternoon. These little things certainly make you feel like you're doing the right thing, and are accepted. maybe by the Diva Spirit? The lovesick call of the heron is much like the frogs they dine on if anyone is interested! (martha) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 18:18:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA19571 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:18:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20641; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:02:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19720 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:55:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max19-5.stc.net [208.210.143.4]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA11569 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:58:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:31:07 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Celtic salt Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 362 >the Celtic Salt is available through available from The Grain and Salt >Society at 1-800-867-7258. I should warn you that if y'all think Will >Brinton is expensive, you should forget about that salt, though I do advise >eating it!! But in quantities to put on your land, you'd spent a fortune!! > >But buy some to try eating it because it feels as though it's good for you! >You can taste and smell all the minerals! It's nothing like any salt I've >ever used. First introduced to it through my wondrous Roxbury csa, who seem >to always have a line on good stuff to eat! > >Best, >Jane Folks, I'd agree that celtic (unrefined) sea salt is real pricey. However, you will find at an Korean/oriental market of any size that the Korean unrefined sea salt is a bargain. I'd suggest if salt is used that this is likely to be affordable since I don't think you'd want to put down more than a few kilos per acre. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." --Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 18:33:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA19923 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:33:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA22696; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:19:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA22632 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:19:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (modem59.digisys.net [205.138.110.108]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA15678 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:22:16 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F822AA.DF81CF60@digisys.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:24:27 -0700 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Celtic salt References: <36F7E13C.4A64B3A6@cyberhighway.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 363 Pam, I believe Southern Botanicals carries Celtic Salt. It's really expensive. They have some literature available on it. http://www.botanicals.net/catalog2.htm Pat Pam DeTray wrote: > Has anyone on this list used salt on their land? > The gifted young man who visited and gave me a reading last week not > only revealed the name of my deva. When I asked what else I could do for > my land, the deva suggested it was lacking in salt and I should give it some. > I was already planning to apply kelp for the sea minerals. Could this > also be considered "salt"? > A final question. I did a web search on Celtic salt the other night, and > turned up a page on making colloidal silver, but there was no mention of > Celtic salt on that page. Can anyone enlighten me here? > Thanks, > Pam DeTray > psdetray@cyberhighway.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 18:36:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA20004 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA23102; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:22:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA22982 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:22:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (tor-pm-1-21.netrover.com [205.209.27.21]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA27859 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:25:12 -0500 (EST) From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: Re: Study: Horsetail info Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:26:45 -0500 Message-ID: <01be7584$9df27cc0$151bd1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 364 Geoff Heinricks : Whereabouts do you live in ontario? If you are close, I could get some horsetail for you next time i get it. regards, manfred palmer -----Original Message----- From: Guillermo Romero To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 2:42 PM Subject: Re: Study: Horsetail info >> >>Where can one get seeds or plants, then? I noticed the Richter's lapse. >>I've got a lot of nettle seedlings growing well. So...how does one get hold >>of horsetail, other than the dried prep material? >> >>Geoff Heinricks >>Prince Edward Co., Ontario > >Dear Geoff: > >The Equisetum species reproduces both sexually, throught the production of spores, and asexually throught the production of tubers and stolons. The rhizomes run to the sides of the plant, underwater or in clay like soil. Sorry no seeds here. > >The herb is so common in wetlands that I bet you would not have any trouble finding some wild to be transplanted to your own farm-garden. Where I live horsetail grows year round and I can always get it fresh and wild (organic) for about $ 0.25 USD per Kilo (2 pounds plus). IMHO the fresh tea works better than the dried form to make 508. For one thing, it ferments faster (if that is your prefered method for making 508) and have a better odor. I don't even bother to keep a plant in my place. > >If you still want to purchase a plant, try the herb nursery companies in your area, not the seed companies. > >Regards > > >Guillermo Romero I. >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 19:43:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21456 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:43:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00455; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:27:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00042 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:24:17 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA16029 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:25:40 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:25:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md17-12.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.140) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma015924; Tue Mar 23 18:25:17 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <199932319265839961@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Solution to the problem with BD NOW X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 365 The list could just be renamed "BD LATER ON", and that would solve the expectations for instant BD net chat, thus allieve the ensuing frustration. Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to and from a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? Food is power... are you in control of yours? Food is power. Where is yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 19:46:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21557 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:46:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00742; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:30:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00532 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:28:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ascend33.netrover.com [205.209.21.34]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA17071 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:31:05 -0500 (EST) From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: Re: cow horns Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:19:42 -0500 Message-ID: <01be758c$03a886c0$151bd1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 366 Connie : In case no-one else has mentioned it, it's good you didn't get the bull's horns. They are not acceptable for the prep-making. You do need Cow horns from a cow which has had at least a couple of calves. About 30 yrs. ago, we got horns at a Toronto slaughter-house, picking through a barrel of them, counting the rings from the base, and choosing their shape. I understand your hesitation about going there, because the air is so full of trauma and desolation. It was our only choice at the time, and i remember consciously interceding with great radiant compassion. I will be looking again soon for horns, and am privileged to be associated with local BD farmers who might save some for me. In future, more and more, there will probably be a waiting list. Good luck,...... manfred palmer -----Original Message----- From: Connie Gilbert To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 1:15 PM Subject: cow horns > >Does anyone know where I can get some cow horns? I really don't want to >get them from a slaughterhouse if I can find a better source. I almost >had a couple, a neighbors bull died of natural causes, but he decided he >wanted the skull and horns for a decoration. > >Lynnaea > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 19:58:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21846 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:58:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02102; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:45:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01766 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:42:18 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA18450; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:41:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:41:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md17-12.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.140) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma018396; Tue Mar 23 18:40:43 1999 To: PatandLiz@aol.com To: BDnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <199932319422732995@ix.netcom.com> Subject: re: what's going on X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 367 On 03/22/99 00:05:14 you wrote: > > > Remember, all you enlightened folks out there Saw a neat book to do with refining one's self in a fun way. I flipped it open and read: Go about your day like everyone is more enlightened than you." I.e. humble thyself to get a better perspective. , we are only as fast as the >slowest. And I am the slowest. So have some heart and take into consideration >that some may not be able to live up to your ideals. At least for the moment. >And by all means continue to set an example but not in a holier than thou way. > I apologize if I came across like that, which I know I'm prone to do. It's an old skin hard to peel off. I'm learning to just let it fall. In my case, I feel such attitudes comes (in part) from being in touch with Earth's pain, and frustrated at the ignorance abounding, a lot of which is willfull and even arrogantly so. Have you never heard people laugh about not caring about the harm they are doing to themselves with food? Or to Earth? In feeling unable to reach such people, I can turn frustration into arrogance, which gains no one nothing. The happy note is that Steven McFadden's delicious equinox sweat lodge gave me a chance to apologize to Spirit before my peers for said arrogance, and open my heart to all of my fellow humans, rather than shun them, since it is the only way to restore the Garden. In Mirth and Joy! Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to and from a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? Food is power... are you in control of yours? Food is power. Where is yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 20:19:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA22463 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:19:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04055; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:01:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.157]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03871 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:59:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [151.196.125.217] (client-151-196-125-217.bellatlantic.net [151.196.125.217]) by smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA13892 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:04:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903240104.UAA13892@smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:55:41 -0500 Subject: Re: OFF: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives From: "Steven McFadden" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 368 A Big Cross in August, indeed ! I attach an abridged version of a longish -- but interesting article on that theme, including a citation from none other than Nostradamus. With prayers for peace, Steven ----------------------------------------------- The Grand Cross Astrology Pattern of August 1999, and The Cassini Spacecraft's Journey to Saturn -- Copyright - 1999 by T. Chase. All rights Reserved. Email T. Chase at: zchase@hotmail.com The Cassini spacecraft was launched by NASA on October 15, 1997, and is scheduled to send a probe to land on Titan, Saturn's moon, in 2004. Key events in its expanding orbital path may relate to Astrological events. On August 18, 1999, in particular, the spacecraft has a close fly-by with the earth. The Astrological significance of that date is that there is then a cross-shaped alignment of planets on that same day, August 18, and a solar eclipse over Europe on August 11, one week before. One of the much-discussed issues concerning this fly-by is that the spacecraft contains Plutonium which it uses as a power source, although Plutonium is also used in nuclear weapons... ...The day of the Grand Cross in the sky: August 18 1999, is the day that Cassini, carrying Plutonium, passes close to earth The Grand Cross, which is one of the most amazing astrological alignments ever seen in history, consists of: the Sun, Venus, and Mercury in the sign of Leo, Mars and the Moon in Scorpio with Pluto close by in Sagittarius, Saturn and Jupiter in Taurus, and Neptune and Uranus in Aquarius. If Scorpio is considered to be the Eagle, and Aquarius the man, then we have the four beasts seen in Revelation 4 that sit at the throne in heaven, that have the faces of an eagle, a man, a lion, and a calf. This seems to indicate an important time for mankind; I think it may also relate to the rise to power of the Antichrist, especially since there is a cross pattern. Consider what I call the "Southern Cross effect," which I discuss on the first page of this web site. In 1987, a Supernova was seen in the Large Megallanic Cloud in the Southern Hemisphere sky. This seems to have "activated" the nearby Southern Hemisphere constellation the Southern Cross, producing a positive force in the Southern Hemisphere, which resulted in democracy coming to South American countries and positive change to South Africa. This Supernova is now brightening again from a collision of gases in space, and should be visible again to the unaided eye by year 2005. Maybe it will be a new Star of Bethlehem, meaning that hope for the world will come from the Southern Hemisphere. It is interesting that this Supernova will be reaching visibility to the unaided eye in year 2005 as Cassini orbits Saturn. It is also interesting that the Mayan calendar ends its current five thousand year cycle in year 2012, implying that the world will be transformed by then. One week before The Grand Cross, on August 11, 1999, there will be a solar eclipse seen over Europe. Concerning the solar eclipse over Europe on August 11, there is a prophecy by Nostradamus. Nostradamus' prophecies were written in France 400 years ago, and consist of short paragraphs describing catastrophic events in the future. The prophecies are in no particular order, which makes it difficult to interpret them. Some of the prophecies do have dates, including this one -- Century 10, Number 72: "In the year 1999, in the seventh month, from the sky there comes a great king of terror, to bring back the great king of the Mongols, Mars rules triumphantly, before and after" Concerning this prophecy by Nostradamus, it is interesting that the solar eclipse passes over France on August 11, and then on August 18 the Cassini spacecraft with its nuclear fuel passes within a thousand miles of earth's surface, on the exact same day as the Grand Cross pattern. I think the significance of Cassini passing by earth on the day of the Grand Cross pattern is that Cassini may be a hologram, a symbolic parallel event, possibly related to a nuclear event or war at that time. - End - From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 21:03:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA23748 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:03:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA10275; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:50:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA09976 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:47:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.99] (pm3shep2-163-99.intrepid.net [209.190.163.99]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02521 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:50:50 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36F8166A.8B8CA290@cyberhighway.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:52:59 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: Do YOU have this problem with BD NOW? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 369 > >Not sure I'm understanding--are his posts just not getting through envirolink? >All of mine have been going through just fine. >Pam I know Pam, I don't see any problems. If his msgs reached envirolink and were not forwarded, I should receive an error msg (including the unsent msg), but I do not receive any error msgs from Martin either. AND, I've told him repeatedly that he can post through me (I do receive email from him) until 'we find' the source of this problem. (Which is usually a modification of the original email address by user or isp.) -Allan Balliett moderator BD Now! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 21:03:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA23749 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:03:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA10227; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:49:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from connect1.reach.net (root@connect1.reach.net [204.50.58.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA09887 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:47:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.50.58.35] (A04.reach.net [204.50.58.35]) by connect1.reach.net (8.9.1-wasp/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA21106 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:49:03 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:49:03 -0500 X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Re: Study: Horsetail info Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 370 >Dear Geoff: > >The Equisetum species reproduces both sexually, throught the production of >spores, and asexually throught the production of tubers and stolons. The >rhizomes run to the sides of the plant, underwater or in clay like soil. >Sorry no seeds here. > >The herb is so common in wetlands that I bet you would not have any >trouble finding some wild to be transplanted to your own farm-garden. >Where I live horsetail grows year round and I can always get it fresh and >wild (organic) for about $ 0.25 USD per Kilo (2 pounds plus). IMHO the >fresh tea works better than the dried form to make 508. For one thing, it >ferments faster (if that is your prefered method for making 508) and have >a better odor. I don't even bother to keep a plant in my place. > >Regards > >Guillermo Romero I. >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Thanks Guillermo. It's funny how things work out. About half an hour after I posted the question answered above, I was at fruit growers seminar, about to speak about winegrape growing. I heard a farmer complaining about being over run by them, and asked him about it. He filled me in, as you did, but wasn't sure when might be the best time to collect and transplant them. But he was willing to help, intrigued that something so problematic to him might be useful. Anyways, any suggestions on what stage might be best to dig up some transplants, and how much of the plant stucture should be gathered for success? Regards & Thanks, (and thanks to Manfred too. I've replied to him directly.) Geoff H PEC, Ontario From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 21:43:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA24569 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:43:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16615; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:29:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16405 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:29:02 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA02057; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:27:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:27:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md18-39.ix.netcom.com(205.184.107.39) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma002027; Tue Mar 23 20:27:49 1999 To: tawndor@bellatlantic.net To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <1999323212930326962@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: OFF: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 371 On 03/23/99 19:55:41 you wrote: > > >A Big Cross in August, indeed ! I attach an abridged version of a longish >-- but interesting article on that theme, including a citation from none >other than Nostradamus. > >With prayers for peace, Steven >----------------------------------------------- > I think the >significance of Cassini passing by earth on the day of the Grand Cross >pattern is that Cassini may be a hologram, a symbolic parallel event, >possibly related to a nuclear event or war at that time. > I think it's time we spend every free second praying we don't get nuked! Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to and from a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? Food is power... are you in control of yours? Food is power. Where is yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 21:55:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA24806 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:55:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19149; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:41:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18978 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:40:50 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA20329 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:43:05 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:43:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md18-39.ix.netcom.com(205.184.107.39) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma020146; Tue Mar 23 20:42:08 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <199932321434935705@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Fwd: [cg] What's Up in Biotechnology, Genetic Engineering X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 372 ------Begin forward message------------------------- I received this from the community gardening list. If you are curious to see what this school is saying about GMOs check this out. It's scary. The guy is saying hybridizing is synonymous with genetic engineering. Eek! The website below links to a slide presentation on biotechnology done by the University of California - Berkeley It gives a quick overview of biotechnology, genetic engineering It starts out "Today I would like to talk with you about the new genetic technologies being used to modify crop plants. I will try to give you the information that you will need to understand the technology and how it differs from the classical means we have used to modify our foods in the past. This is not the first technology that has impacted the food supply in the 10,000-year history of farming. As with other such technologies, the domestication of plants and animals, mechanization, chemical fertilizers and pesticides, the application of the new genetic tools brings questions that involve risks and benefits. We are living in an increasingly complex world where we are called upon to make decisions on technically complex matters and often we are not armed with the facts that we need to make informed decisions. What I would like to do today is to give you enough information so that you will be able to make informed decisions about how these technologies will be used and how the foods derived from this technology differ from the ones we now eat. . . ." Lucy K. Bradley Extension Agent, Urban Horticulture Maricopa County The University of Arizona Cooperative Extension 4341 E Broadway Rd. Phoenix, AZ 85040-8807 Phone: (602) 470-8086 ext 323 Fax: (602) 470-8092 email: BradleyL@ag.arizona.edu http://ag.arizona.edu/maricopa/garden/ _______________________________________________ community_garden maillist - community_garden@mallorn.com https://secure.mallorn.com/mailman/listinfo/community_garden ------End forward message--------------------------- Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to and from a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? Food is power... are you in control of yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 22:10:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA25058 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:10:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA20736; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:54:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20282 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:50:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0112.direct.ca ([204.244.83.12] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10Pdnf-0004kT-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:53:48 -0800 Message-ID: <36F85368.CAE37227@direct.ca> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:52:24 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives References: <199903240104.UAA13892@smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 373 France has the highest per capital Nuclear Power plants. If one of them explodes, and the wind comes from the West, it is likely that a huge area of Europe will not be inhabitable any longer. Last year, my brother said; If ever such an event (explosion) should happen, we would have a new war in Europe. All Scientists would be lynched because we, stupid fools, followed them. And, in addition, France would be shut down as a country. Look at it carefully, what was said below - it makes one shudder. How many Nuclear Power Plants are there in France, 35? (And since the first one started there have been over one hundred serious Nuclear accidents!!!0 Regards Ferdinand (I am still getting BDNOW although I unsubscribed). Steven McFadden wrote: > A Big Cross in August, indeed ! I attach an abridged version of a longish > -- but interesting article on that theme, including a citation from none > other than Nostradamus. > > With prayers for peace, Steven > ----------------------------------------------- > > The Grand Cross Astrology Pattern of August 1999, > and The Cassini Spacecraft's Journey to Saturn -- > > Copyright - 1999 by T. Chase. All rights Reserved. > Email T. Chase at: zchase@hotmail.com > > The Cassini spacecraft was launched by NASA on October 15, 1997, and is > scheduled to send a probe to land on Titan, Saturn's moon, in 2004. Key > events in its expanding orbital path may relate to Astrological events. > > On August 18, 1999, in particular, the spacecraft has a close fly-by with > the earth. The Astrological significance of that date is that there is then > a cross-shaped alignment of planets on that same day, August 18, and a solar > eclipse over Europe on August 11, one week before. > > One of the much-discussed issues concerning this fly-by is that the > spacecraft contains Plutonium which it uses as a power source, although > Plutonium is also used in nuclear weapons... > > ...The day of the Grand Cross in the sky: August 18 1999, is the day that > Cassini, carrying Plutonium, passes close to earth > > The Grand Cross, which is one of the most amazing astrological alignments > ever seen in history, consists of: the Sun, Venus, and Mercury in the sign > of Leo, Mars and the Moon in Scorpio with Pluto close by in Sagittarius, > Saturn and Jupiter in Taurus, and Neptune and Uranus in Aquarius. > > If Scorpio is considered to be the Eagle, and Aquarius the man, then we have > the four beasts seen in Revelation 4 that sit at the throne in heaven, that > have the faces of an eagle, a man, a lion, and a calf. This seems to > indicate an important time for mankind; I think it may also relate to the > rise to power of the Antichrist, especially since there is a cross pattern. > > Consider what I call the "Southern Cross effect," which I discuss on the > first page of this web site. In 1987, a Supernova was seen in the Large > Megallanic Cloud in the Southern Hemisphere sky. This seems to have > "activated" the nearby Southern Hemisphere constellation the Southern Cross, > producing a positive force in the Southern Hemisphere, which resulted in > democracy coming to South American countries and positive change to South > Africa. > > This Supernova is now brightening again from a collision of gases in space, > and should be visible again to the unaided eye by year 2005. Maybe it will > be a new Star of Bethlehem, meaning that hope for the world will come from > the Southern Hemisphere. It is interesting that this Supernova will be > reaching visibility to the unaided eye in year 2005 as Cassini orbits > Saturn. It is also interesting that the Mayan calendar ends its current five > thousand year cycle in year 2012, implying that the world will be > transformed by then. > > One week before The Grand Cross, on August 11, 1999, there will be a solar > eclipse seen over Europe. Concerning the solar eclipse over Europe on August > 11, there is a prophecy by Nostradamus. > > Nostradamus' prophecies were written in France 400 years ago, and consist of > short paragraphs describing catastrophic events in the future. The > prophecies are in no particular order, which makes it difficult to interpret > them. Some of the prophecies do have dates, including this one -- Century > 10, Number 72: > > "In the year 1999, in the seventh month, > from the sky there comes a great king of terror, > to bring back the great king of the Mongols, > Mars rules triumphantly, before and after" > > Concerning this prophecy by Nostradamus, it is interesting that the solar > eclipse passes over France on August 11, and then on August 18 the Cassini > spacecraft with its nuclear fuel passes within a thousand miles of earth's > surface, on the exact same day as the Grand Cross pattern. I think the > significance of Cassini passing by earth on the day of the Grand Cross > pattern is that Cassini may be a hologram, a symbolic parallel event, > possibly related to a nuclear event or war at that time. > > - End - -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 22:12:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA25090 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:12:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21025; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:57:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20692 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:53:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d162.infoserve.net [199.175.157.162]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA01633 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:59:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004201be75a2$09af7cc0$929dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: OFF: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:46:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 374 Thanks, Steven. It has been reported in Info Drei, a German anthr. based publication, that on Aug. 11, in Stuttgart, they will close off the inner city to traffic. Hordes of people from all over Europe-and the world- have been invited to all sorts of street events. Among them is a huge Sing-In of Ode to Joy, exactly when the eclipse passes over Stuttgart. Back to the Grand Cross. Who do you think in the "King of the Mongols"? M. -----Original Message----- From: Steven McFadden To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 5:07 PM Subject: Re: OFF: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives > >A Big Cross in August, indeed ! I attach an abridged version of a longish >-- but interesting article on that theme, including a citation from none >other than Nostradamus. > >With prayers for peace, Steven >----------------------------------------------- > >The Grand Cross Astrology Pattern of August 1999, >and The Cassini Spacecraft's Journey to Saturn -- > >Copyright - 1999 by T. Chase. All rights Reserved. >Email T. Chase at: zchase@hotmail.com > > >The Cassini spacecraft was launched by NASA on October 15, 1997, and is >scheduled to send a probe to land on Titan, Saturn's moon, in 2004. Key >events in its expanding orbital path may relate to Astrological events. > >On August 18, 1999, in particular, the spacecraft has a close fly-by with >the earth. The Astrological significance of that date is that there is then >a cross-shaped alignment of planets on that same day, August 18, and a solar >eclipse over Europe on August 11, one week before. > > One of the much-discussed issues concerning this fly-by is that the >spacecraft contains Plutonium which it uses as a power source, although >Plutonium is also used in nuclear weapons... > >...The day of the Grand Cross in the sky: August 18 1999, is the day that >Cassini, carrying Plutonium, passes close to earth > >The Grand Cross, which is one of the most amazing astrological alignments >ever seen in history, consists of: the Sun, Venus, and Mercury in the sign >of Leo, Mars and the Moon in Scorpio with Pluto close by in Sagittarius, >Saturn and Jupiter in Taurus, and Neptune and Uranus in Aquarius. > >If Scorpio is considered to be the Eagle, and Aquarius the man, then we have >the four beasts seen in Revelation 4 that sit at the throne in heaven, that >have the faces of an eagle, a man, a lion, and a calf. This seems to >indicate an important time for mankind; I think it may also relate to the >rise to power of the Antichrist, especially since there is a cross pattern. > >Consider what I call the "Southern Cross effect," which I discuss on the >first page of this web site. In 1987, a Supernova was seen in the Large >Megallanic Cloud in the Southern Hemisphere sky. This seems to have >"activated" the nearby Southern Hemisphere constellation the Southern Cross, >producing a positive force in the Southern Hemisphere, which resulted in >democracy coming to South American countries and positive change to South >Africa. > >This Supernova is now brightening again from a collision of gases in space, >and should be visible again to the unaided eye by year 2005. Maybe it will >be a new Star of Bethlehem, meaning that hope for the world will come from >the Southern Hemisphere. It is interesting that this Supernova will be >reaching visibility to the unaided eye in year 2005 as Cassini orbits >Saturn. It is also interesting that the Mayan calendar ends its current five >thousand year cycle in year 2012, implying that the world will be >transformed by then. > >One week before The Grand Cross, on August 11, 1999, there will be a solar >eclipse seen over Europe. Concerning the solar eclipse over Europe on August >11, there is a prophecy by Nostradamus. > >Nostradamus' prophecies were written in France 400 years ago, and consist of >short paragraphs describing catastrophic events in the future. The >prophecies are in no particular order, which makes it difficult to interpret >them. Some of the prophecies do have dates, including this one -- Century >10, Number 72: > >"In the year 1999, in the seventh month, >from the sky there comes a great king of terror, >to bring back the great king of the Mongols, >Mars rules triumphantly, before and after" > >Concerning this prophecy by Nostradamus, it is interesting that the solar >eclipse passes over France on August 11, and then on August 18 the Cassini >spacecraft with its nuclear fuel passes within a thousand miles of earth's >surface, on the exact same day as the Grand Cross pattern. I think the >significance of Cassini passing by earth on the day of the Grand Cross >pattern is that Cassini may be a hologram, a symbolic parallel event, >possibly related to a nuclear event or war at that time. > > - End - > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 22:22:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA25216 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:22:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA21355; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:00:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheddar.direct.ca (cheddar.direct.ca [199.60.229.16]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA21116 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:57:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0112.direct.ca ([204.244.83.12] helo=direct.ca) by cheddar.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #20) id 10Pdu4-0002Fu-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:00:25 -0800 Message-ID: <36F8550F.220A85EB@direct.ca> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:59:27 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Do YOU have this problem with BD NOW? References: <36F8166A.8B8CA290@cyberhighway.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 375 Dear Allan, I have UNSUBSCRIBED FROM BDNOW and still received 45 messages. Help. Regards Ferdinand Pam DeTray wrote: > Not sure I'm understanding--are his posts just not getting through envirolink? > All of mine have been going through just fine. > Pam > > Intergalactic Garage wrote: > > > > Dear Friends - > > > > I have attempted to make it clear to Martin that I will hand post messages > > for Martin if he will send them to me at igg@igg.com. In the meantime, I am > > not receiving messages from him at bdnow@envirolink.org. Not all problems > > are easily solved. It will take time to untangle this one. Cooperation and > > comraderie in the meantime w.b. most greatly appreciated. > > > > Thanks > > > > -Allan Balliett > > moderator > > BD Now! -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 22:29:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA25359 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:29:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA23005; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:15:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA22923 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:14:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from pacbell.net (ppp-209-79-182-31.vntrcs.pacbell.net [209.79.182.31]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with ESMTP id TAA15634 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:17:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36F85B67.A3386652@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:26:32 -0800 From: christopher jones Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-PBI-NC404 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Newcomer References: <36E9E2EC.D34BEE4E@pacbell.net> <36EC89A9.CFF45A80@direct.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 376 Thanks for the info. Ferdinand. I working on it A.S.A.P. Ferdinand Vondruska wrote: > christopher jones wrote: > > > I am new to bio-dynamics. I live in in Southern California and have a > > lot of shale with little organic matter. Any suggestions on how to > > begin a more bio-dynamic situation. > > Dear Christopher: > > To begin with, get as much organic matter as you can. Leaves, grass, > compost, kitchen waste, wood chips from leaf trees (never needle) - you > may have to import stuff. Buy BD Compost Preps and get the compost going. > Perhaps you can keep rabbits or get a bit of cow manure from somewhere. > Make sure you get 'a set' of worms, too. Spray 500 soonest. Check your > soil pH. Get a rain barrel. Cover the soil with straw so that soil life > can develop underneath. > > Well, why am I saying this all? YOu may be much further. Sorry for being > so obtrusive. All the best Ferdinand > > > > > > > -- > > > > Christopher Jones > > feast@pacbell.net > > -- > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > C-DAR HOUSE - A CENTRE FOR THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE VOICE OF THE FOREST > INTO > AN UNDERSTANDING OF ITS SOUL THROUGH THE ARTS. IN COLLABORATION WITH C-DAR > WORLD > FOREST FOUNDATION, A REGISTERED CHARITY. -- Christopher Jones feast@pacbell.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 22:43:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA25507 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:43:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24548; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:30:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24378 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:28:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from sqa-25-0112.direct.ca ([204.244.83.12] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10PeOF-0000qz-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:31:36 -0800 Message-ID: <36F85C44.B98BCA32@direct.ca> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:30:12 -0800 From: Ferdinand Vondruska Organization: C-Dar World Forest Foundation REG#89 103 0348 RR0001 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: cow horns, no bull References: <19990323180705.35094.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 377 NO BULL HORNS! Must be cow horns. You can take cow hooves or, try it, as we do, take a mane or tail without the flesh part from a horse and wrap the horse droppings into it. Indications are that they turn out very well. We did it the first time last y ear. Ferdinand Connie Gilbert wrote: > Does anyone know where I can get some cow horns? I really don't want to > get them from a slaughterhouse if I can find a better source. I almost > had a couple, a neighbors bull died of natural causes, but he decided he > wanted the skull and horns for a decoration. > > Lynnaea > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 23:31:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA26128 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:31:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA29548; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:16:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA29188 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:13:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([203.96.109.134]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990324041633.JZSA4957949.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:16:33 +1200 Message-ID: <36F86752.6911@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:17:23 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF : August 1999 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 378 The great king of the mongols??? Gengis Khan or Kubli Khan - reincarnating???? or the rise of China as a dominate world power????? The interesting thing of this Aug 99 period is that Pluto is not directly involved in the Grand cross aspect. Therefore one would expect that neuclear accidents or bombs would not be a predominate part of the happenings of the time. Uranus and Netune are the biggies involved which are more earthquakes and floods - in earth signs - all the more reason. The planets do talk about fanatical religious rebellion against existing forms. Fixed signs is often a war thing. Pluto is actually trine to a few things at the time ( Mercury, Ceres, North Node) so there will be plenty of talk and it would seem if everyone is speaking from their hearts and truth then rebelion can be moderated. If possible mind you. So if anything Pluto is looking like the escape valve rather than the trigger. Also remember Solar eclipses act as a vent for drama. You will note crisis are often released at those times. I know there are predictions of neuclear detonations at this time, it is just interesting Pluto is so benign then, unlike chenobyl when there was a Sun Pluto relationship. Anyway food for though and thanks for the nostradamous quote. Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 23 23:39:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA26257 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA00302; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:22:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ark.com (mars.ark.com [209.53.216.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA29938 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:19:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.53.216.232] (io6p32.ark.com [209.53.216.232]) by ark.com (8.9.3/8.5local) with SMTP id UAA01512; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:22:06 -0800 Message-Id: <199903240422.UAA01512@ark.com> Subject: April 24th Bio Dynamic Field Day Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 20:23:29 -0800 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Lang Price To: "Susan Davidson" , "BD forum" , "John Vanden Heuvel" , "Ferdinand Vondruska" , "Gre Visser" , "Ellen Rainwalker" , "Siem de Jong" , "Dale&Maureen Presly" , "Steve Moore" , "Michael Roboz" , "Mary Forstbauer" , "Lawrance Lampson" , "David Wiebe" , "Glen and Carmen Wakeling" , "Mark Sweeney" , "Harvie Snow" , "Ann Macey" , "Cathleen Kneen" , "Brewster and Cathleen Kneen" , "Peter Johnston" , "Mary-Alice Johnson" , "Brian Hughes" , "Gunther Hauk" , "Julia& Susan Grace" , "GRANT FERGUSON" , "Dieter Eisenhawer" , "Ann De Cosson" , "Herman Bruns" , "Mark Bramly" , "Mary Ballon" , "FarmFolk/CityFolk" , "COABC" , "BC Organic Grower" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 379 ANNOUNCEMENT An Invitation to all Organic Farmers & Gardeners, Bee Keepers and Concerned Consumers Bio-Dynamic Agriculture Society of BC Field Day and Workshop Where: On Line Farms', 5660 North Island Highway ( 5 miles north of Courtenay) Courtenay, B.C. (Vancouver Island) When: Saturday, April 24, 1999 - 9am to 4.30pm With: GUNTHER HAUK, world-renowned expert on Beekeeping and Biodynamic agriculture. 9-11:00 Introduction to Biodynamic Agriculture with Gunther Hauk; Stirring with flow form and application of the Biodynamic preparations; Farm Tour 11-11:30 Morning break and travel to Grantham Hall 11:30-12:30 Annual General Meeting, Bio-Dynamic Agriculture Society of B.C. 12:30-1:30 Lunch served at Grantham Hall ($10) 1:30-4:30 Workshop and discussion with Gunther Hauk: "The Plight of the Honeybee: What Can We do to Save Them from Extinction?"; Refreshment break; Questions and Discussion. Admission is free, donations welcome. Biodynamic books and literature will be on display and for sale. No dogs on the farm please. Carpooling from Victoria, Vancouver and Nanaimo available - for those with extra space in their cars or those needing a ride, or for more information, please call (250) 361-1514. Assistance with meal preparation and seating at the hall is appreciated. If you will be joining us for this event, please RSVP by April 18, (250) 361-1514 Sponsored by CAPERS, West Vancouver 5% Day- Thank You Capers For those arriving Friday and/or staying Saturday here is a list of some of the hotels and motels in Courtenay Mid -priced to expensive Inexpensive Kingfisher inn and spa Anco Motel 1-800-663-7929 250-334-2451 Coast Westerly Hotel River Heights Motel 1-800-668-7797 250-338-8932 Best Western/Collingwood Inn Sleepy Hollow 1-800-528-1234 250-334-4476 Travel Lodge 1-800-663-0191 Courtenay is located about half way up the east side of Vancouver Island. >From Victoria we are about 3+ hours north on the highway, from Naniamo we are 1.5 hours north. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 24 02:22:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA28126 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 02:22:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA14773; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 02:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA14547 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 02:06:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.161] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.161]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.11.13.11.10) with ESMTP id <0F93007TQ5G8BI@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:17:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:23:17 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Study: Horsetail info In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id CAA14551 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 380 >>Dear Geoff: >> >>The Equisetum species reproduces both sexually, throught the production of >>spores, and asexually throught the production of tubers and stolons. The >>rhizomes run to the sides of the plant, underwater or in clay like soil. >>Sorry no seeds here. >> >>The herb is so common in wetlands that I bet you would not have any >>trouble finding some wild to be transplanted to your own farm-garden. >>Where I live horsetail grows year round and I can always get it fresh and >>wild (organic) for about $ 0.25 USD per Kilo (2 pounds plus). IMHO the >>fresh tea works better than the dried form to make 508. For one thing, it >>ferments faster (if that is your prefered method for making 508) and have >>a better odor. I don't even bother to keep a plant in my place. >> >>Regards >> >>Guillermo Romero I. >>Comala, Colima, MEXICO >> > >Thanks Guillermo. > >It's funny how things work out. About half an hour after I posted the >question answered above, I was at fruit growers seminar, about to speak >about winegrape growing. > I heard a farmer complaining about being over run by them, and asked him >about it. He filled me in, as you did, but wasn't sure when might be the >best time to collect and transplant them. But he was willing to help, >intrigued that something so problematic to him might be useful. > > > Anyways, any suggestions on what stage might be best to dig up some >transplants, and how much of the plant stucture should be gathered for >success? > >Regards & Thanks, >(and thanks to Manfred too. I've replied to him directly.) > >Geoff H >PEC, Ontario Yes Geoff, it is funny how BD things happen. While I was waiting for my hard to get and import BD preps from JPI some year ago, suddenly most everything that was needed to make the preps appeared effortless at my doorstep. My frontdoor neighbor is a butcher and he has given me many more horns than what I could posibly use here. A sweet old lady brings the horsetail herb to my door every once in a while and that is the only herb that she sells (it is widely used here for kidney related problems). I discovered a mountain filled with quartz crystals just 7 miles away from my house........ etc. At this point I am doing my own 500, 501, 508 and horn clay. I have a believe in place that the compost preps are too much of a hasle for me to make, but I am sure that when the time is right and the need arise, I will be getting skulls and bladers, and valerian and dandelion, and whatever else is needed. It is nature supporting itself ! The info I have on Horsetail says that the plant may be propagated by root sections collected from horsetail stands in the spring, when the plant begins to send up its spearlike stems. That is just after the the spore bearing structure, produced in early spring, dies down. So I guess, you'll just have to wait a little while now to get busy collecting root sections. I remember that at some point someone posted in Allan's website a picture of horsetail, with the stems and the catkin showing, probably it is still there to help you identify the parts of the plant. What do you know about those pictures dear Allan Balliet? Hope this helps. Warm regards. Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 24 03:43:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA28807 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 03:43:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA20054; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 03:31:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.nildram.co.uk (saturn.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.22]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA20018 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 03:31:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from pbn-computer (ppp47-49.dial.nildram.co.uk [195.112.47.49]) by saturn.nildram.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA09932 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:34:59 GMT Message-ID: <006301be75d1$7de002c0$312f70c3@pbn-computer> From: "Rosemary Burton" To: Subject: unsubscribe Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:35:53 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0060_01BE75D1.54A88EE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 381 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01BE75D1.54A88EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01BE75D1.54A88EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
------=_NextPart_000_0060_01BE75D1.54A88EE0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 24 04:40:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA29379 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:40:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA22529; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:26:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA22434 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:25:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([203.96.104.247]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990324092832.MJNI4957949.mta1-rme@default> for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:28:32 +1200 Message-ID: <36F8B0AA.3404@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:30:18 +1200 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Celtic salt References: <36F7E13C.4A64B3A6@cyberhighway.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 382 Hi Pam My wife and I have been cooking with Celtic Salt for a few years now , it is the most delicious salt I have ever tasted. IT is how ever expensive about $18 NZ per 500gms. Here is some information from the back of the packet. Hand Harvested Celtic sea salt from the marshlands of Brittany, France is uniquely evaporated by the sun and wind and delicatly gathered by hand with long woodentools by the dedicated Salt Farmers of the Region. This Ancient time honoured method of hand harvesting ensures a pure unrefined, fully mineralised, well balanced sea salt of the highest potency.This sea salt has been certified Organic and stamped with approval for its purity by two of the worlds most respected associations "Nature et Progres" of Europe and the "Biological Farmers of Australia" Pam Kelp will have similar amounts of trace elements as sea salt I have not got the comparisons handy at the moments. I use kelp as a liquid fertiliser and as liquid plant spray on a regular basis and use it in my compost heaps to supply trace elements . I also put some into my barrel composts. Hope this helps Cheers Tony Robinson Rambler Flowers New ZealandPam DeTray wrote: > > Has anyone on this list used salt on their land? > The gifted young man who visited and gave me a reading last week not > only revealed the name of my deva. When I asked what else I could do for > my land, the deva suggested it was lacking in salt and I should give it some. > I was already planning to apply kelp for the sea minerals. Could this > also be considered "salt"? > A final question. I did a web search on Celtic salt the other night, and > turned up a page on making colloidal silver, but there was no mention of > Celtic salt on that page. Can anyone enlighten me here? > Thanks, > Pam DeTray > psdetray@cyberhighway.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 24 06:08:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA29892 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 06:08:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA27378; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:51:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA27228 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:50:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.99] (pm3shep4-163-191.intrepid.net [209.190.163.191]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA07355; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:53:32 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:55:48 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: (From Al Kapluler) Re: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Cc: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 383 Dear Paco, I wondered why we are destroying the biosphere also, and years ago traced it to violence in the food system. Goes back to bacteria So I got into free amino acids since they precede cells, and working with Gurusiddiah did hundreds of amino acid analyses for free amino in the juices of common fruits and vegies. Also explored snibbitting, cutting the bottoms off garlics and replanting them; similar notion with carrots, radishes, parsnips except for these one plants the tops, and looked at allthe fruits and vegies for the direction of non violence And continue to work for peace, love and ahimsa. best to you Mushroom (aka al kapuler) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 24 06:08:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA29904 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 06:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA27334; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:51:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA27223 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:50:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.99] (pm3shep4-163-191.intrepid.net [209.190.163.191]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA07350; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:53:29 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:55:41 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: (From Al Kapluler) Re: OFF topic RE: Al Kapuler Cc: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 384 dear martha, no web site for posting photos although i'm due to talk to the Corvallis Organic Garden Club about botanizing belize and the Corvallis Orchid Society about Belize orchids, but not before i figure out a kinship layout for the largest family of plants ca 25000 species, and nice to hear some memories about caye caulker rosita arvigo is in Cayo, 7 miles outside San Ignacio she wrote Sastun about apprenticing with Don Eligio Ponti, mayan curandero and i got some positive vibes, a few healing recipes to follow, and a poultice to wear nightly to reduce my swollen lymph glands best to you al kapuler From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 24 06:08:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA29912 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 06:08:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA27412; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA27233 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:50:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.99] (pm3shep4-163-191.intrepid.net [209.190.163.191]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA07362; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:53:34 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:55:55 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: (From Al Kapluler) Re: Alan Kapuler and Peace Cc: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 385 Dear Parker, The mail order part of Peace Seeds was bought by Seeds of Change and one step to getting me as Research Director, now in my 10th year. Vol 3+4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 are available from Seeds of Change (offered in the Deep Diversity Catalog) or from me directly at 2385 SE Thompson St Corvallis OR 97333. The set is $64 + $5 postage. I will continue to work on kinship gardening, conservation of diversity, the fabric of life as I begin to live, part time, in Belize. Deep Diversity will become the recipient of new collections. Best to you Al Kapuler From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 24 06:09:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA29920 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 06:09:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA27290; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:51:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA27215 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:50:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.99] (pm3shep4-163-191.intrepid.net [209.190.163.191]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA07342; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:53:25 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:55:34 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: (From Al Kapluler) Re: GMO's & Spiritual Perspectives Cc: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 386 Dear Jane, Great good feelings and agreement that Allan Balliett has earned a heartfelt thanks for stimulating real discussion and furthering much needed interest in organics, biodynamics and the essential nature of diversity. Pesticides, herbicides in particular, are vectors for plant genocide. Pre-chemical era agriculture, you couldn't eliminate all the weeds in a field, and one left fence and hedge rows. Now its dead from border to border and all those little weeds and bugs that knit the fabric of life into a tapestry of sustainability are disappearing. And hence gardening and the integrity of our food system becomes the prime civil rights issue of our times. Love and Peace Al Kapuler From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 24 08:11:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA00926 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:11:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA02911; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:59:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from rtfm.midcoast.com (root@dns.midcoast.com [206.26.226.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA02812 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:57:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from jpt (liberty-c-003.midcoast.com [208.153.20.103]) by rtfm.midcoast.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA04729 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:00:22 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990323133737.007e2da0@midcoast.com> X-Sender: stgeorge@midcoast.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:37:37 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "John P. Thomas and Kathleen Barrett" Subject: RE: Calf rearing w/out the mamma In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990322134704.00c4d710@pop-server> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 387 So glad you are trying flower essences! What about 5-flower formula (rescue remedy" for shock and trauma? Your other flower choices sound great! John St. George Farm Freedom, Maine, USA At 01:52 PM 3/22/99 -1000, you wrote: >Dear Friends, > >I misstated the "supplements" we are giving to Monique. They are actually >flower essences, not essential oils. And it is not primrose we are giving >her, but mariposa lily to help her in her new home and comfort her from >being estranged from her mother. > >Phyl > >=================================================== > Please note Phyl Dwyer's new email address > >=================================================== > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 24 08:41:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA01297 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:41:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA05262; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:29:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA05218 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:29:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d140.infoserve.net [199.175.157.140]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA22761 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:34:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004c01be75fa$cd66e920$8c9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Celtic salt Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 05:04:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 388 And Kelp is much much cheaper!! At least here in Canada. There is a local organically labelled commercial kelp product. There is another source right here in Vancouver, on the beach, at low tide, at certain times of the year-very cheap, but, very heavy to carry! M. -----Original Message----- From: Rambler To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 1:32 AM Subject: Re: Celtic salt >Hi Pam My wife and I have been cooking with Celtic Salt for a few >years now , it is the most delicious salt I have ever tasted. IT is how >ever expensive about $18 NZ per 500gms. >Here is some information from the back of the packet. >Hand Harvested Celtic sea salt from the marshlands of Brittany, France >is uniquely evaporated by the sun and wind and delicatly gathered by >hand with long woodentools by the dedicated Salt Farmers of the Region. >This Ancient time honoured method of hand harvesting ensures a pure >unrefined, fully mineralised, well balanced sea salt of the highest >potency.This sea salt has been certified Organic and stamped with >approval for its purity by two of the worlds most respected associations >"Nature et Progres" of Europe and the "Biological Farmers of Australia" > >Pam Kelp will have similar amounts of trace elements as sea salt I >have not got the comparisons handy at the moments. I use kelp as a >liquid fertiliser and as liquid plant spray on a regular basis and use >it in my compost heaps to supply trace elements . I also put some into >my barrel composts. > >Hope this helps >Cheers Tony Robinson >Rambler Flowers >New ZealandPam DeTray wrote: >> >> Has anyone on this list used salt on their land? >> The gifted young man who visited and gave me a reading last week not >> only revealed the name of my deva. When I asked what else I could do for >> my land, the deva suggested it was lacking in salt and I should give it some. >> I was already planning to apply kelp for the sea minerals. Could this >> also be considered "salt"? >> A final question. I did a web search on Celtic salt the other night, and >> turned up a page on making colloidal silver, but there was no mention of >> Celtic salt on that page. Can anyone enlighten me here? >> Thanks, >> Pam DeTray >> psdetray@cyberhighway.net > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 24 09:39:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02129 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:39:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10868; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:27:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10584 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:25:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from slip202-135-86-118.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-118.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.118]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA63160 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:28:23 GMT Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:28:23 GMT Message-Id: <199903241428.OAA63160@out2.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: Do YOU have this problem with BD NOW? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 389 At 08:52 PM 3/23/99 -0500, you wrote: >> >>Not sure I'm understanding--are his posts just not getting through envirolink? >>All of mine have been going through just fine. >>Pam > >I know Pam, I don't see any problems. If his msgs reached envirolink and >were not forwarded, I should receive an error msg (including the unsent >msg), but I do not receive any error msgs from Martin either. > >AND, I've told him repeatedly that he can post through me (I do receive >email from him) until 'we find' the source of this problem. (Which is >usually a modification of the original email address by user or isp.) > Just a thought: is he using the correct address, he could have a space in BD NOW when it should be BDNOW? Lynton From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 24 11:35:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03722 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:35:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02837; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:24:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02248 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:22:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (modem33.digisys.net [205.138.110.82]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA28711 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:25:16 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F91272.B3C6996D@digisys.net> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:27:31 -0700 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: [cg] What's Up in Biotechnology, Genetic Engineering References: <199932321434935705@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4E34B9A36D7C06133B4DDFE8" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 390 --------------4E34B9A36D7C06133B4DDFE8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is indeed interesting reading. The following excerpt is from the plantbio.berkeley site. To fully appreciate how chilling this is, the entire text should be read. "As we learn more about the health benefits of these and other natural plant compounds it may be possible to engineer plants to make more of them or to make them in the laboratory to be used as food supplements. In addition plants are being used to produced low-cost and efficient vaccines for animal and human diseases. In this application, immunization will occur by simply genetically altering the crop to contain the vaccinating compound which effects protection when ingested. This strategy is being developed for humans in order to provide easily delivered, low-cost vaccines in developing countries and in animals to deliver vaccines effectively to large animal herds." beanman@ix.netcom.com wrote: > ------Begin forward message------------------------- > > I received this from the community gardening list. > > If you are curious to see what this school is saying about GMOs check this out. > It's scary. The guy is saying hybridizing is synonymous with genetic engineering. > Eek! > > The website below links to a slide presentation on biotechnology done by > the University of California - Berkeley > > > > It gives a quick overview of biotechnology, genetic engineering > > It starts out > > "Today I would like to talk with you about the new genetic technologies > being used to modify crop plants. I will try to give you the information > that you will need to understand the technology and how it differs from the > classical means we have used to modify our foods in the past. > > This is not the first technology that has impacted the food supply in the > 10,000-year history of farming. As with other such technologies, the > domestication of plants and animals, mechanization, chemical fertilizers > and pesticides, the application of the new genetic tools brings questions > that involve risks and benefits. We are living in an increasingly complex > world where we are called upon to make decisions on technically complex > matters and often we are not armed with the facts that we need to make > informed decisions. > > What I would like to do today is to give you enough information so that you > will be able to make informed decisions about how these technologies will > be used and how the foods derived from this technology differ from the ones > we now eat. . . ." > > Lucy K. Bradley > Extension Agent, Urban Horticulture > Maricopa County > The University of Arizona > Cooperative Extension > 4341 E Broadway Rd. > Phoenix, AZ 85040-8807 > > Phone: (602) 470-8086 ext 323 > Fax: (602) 470-8092 > email: BradleyL@ag.arizona.edu > http://ag.arizona.edu/maricopa/garden/ > > _______________________________________________ > community_garden maillist - community_garden@mallorn.com > https://secure.mallorn.com/mailman/listinfo/community_garden > > ------End forward message--------------------------- > > Happy Gardening, > > John Edward Verin > Senior Apprentice > Ecosystem Farm > Accokeek, MD > > BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! > How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to and from a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? > > Food is power... are you in control of yours? --------------4E34B9A36D7C06133B4DDFE8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is indeed interesting reading. The following excerpt is from the plantbio.berkeley site. To fully appreciate how chilling this is, the entire text should be read.
 
"As we learn more about the health benefits of these and other natural plant
compounds it may be possible to engineer plants to make more of them or to make them in the
laboratory to be used as food supplements. In addition plants are being used to produced low-cost
and efficient vaccines for animal and human diseases. In this application, immunization will occur by
simply genetically altering the crop to contain the vaccinating compound which effects protection
when ingested. This strategy is being developed for humans in order to provide easily delivered,
low-cost vaccines in developing countries and in animals to deliver vaccines effectively to large animal
herds."

beanman@ix.netcom.com wrote:

------Begin forward message-------------------------

I received this from the community gardening list.

If you are curious to see what this school is saying about GMOs check this out.
It's scary. The guy is saying hybridizing is synonymous with genetic engineering.
Eek!

The website below links to a slide presentation on biotechnology done by
the University of California - Berkeley

<http://plantbio.berkeley.edu/~outreach/WHATIS.HTM#16>

It gives a quick overview of biotechnology, genetic engineering

It starts out

"Today I would like to talk with you about the new genetic technologies
being used to modify crop plants. I will try to give you the information
that you will need to understand the technology and how it differs from the
classical means we have used to modify our foods in the past.

This is not the first technology that has impacted the food supply in the
10,000-year history of farming. As with other such technologies, the
domestication of plants and animals, mechanization, chemical fertilizers
and pesticides, the application of the new genetic tools brings questions
that involve risks and benefits. We are living in an increasingly complex
world where we are called upon to make decisions on technically complex
matters and often we are not armed with the facts that we need to make
informed decisions.

What I would like to do today is to give you enough information so that you
will be able to make informed decisions about how these technologies will
be used and how the foods derived from this technology differ from the ones
we now eat. . . ."

Lucy K. Bradley
Extension Agent, Urban Horticulture
Maricopa County
The University of Arizona
Cooperative Extension
4341 E Broadway Rd.
Phoenix, AZ  85040-8807

Phone:  (602) 470-8086 ext 323
Fax:  (602) 470-8092
email:  BradleyL@ag.arizona.edu
http://ag.arizona.edu/maricopa/garden/

_______________________________________________
community_garden maillist  -  community_garden@mallorn.com
https://secure.mallorn.com/mailman/listinfo/community_garden

------End forward message---------------------------

Happy Gardening,

John Edward Verin
Senior Apprentice
Ecosystem Farm
Accokeek, MD

BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN!
How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to and from a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food?

Food is power... are you in control of yours?

  --------------4E34B9A36D7C06133B4DDFE8-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 24 11:57:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04943 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:57:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08205; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:45:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08002 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:45:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([195.44.20.69]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:48:15 +0000 Message-ID: <36F917BE.351D@cwcom.net> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:50:06 +0000 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Re maths books and good English Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 391 Pam - Agreed. I've no problem with language evolving, except when it introduces confusion or quite unnecessary bad practices. Whereas no-one would expect (say) the chalked price-list outside a village store to be totally grammatically correct, kids might believe that an international corporation (yes, we have Lands' End in Britain, too) would get it right - just as they might expect a Vice President to be able to spell 'potato' :-) (sorry this is late, I now see that I mis-typed 'wnvirolink' the first time around - any relevance to the BDNow problems thread ?) Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 24 14:50:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA09701 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:49:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28998; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:09:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27980 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:06:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.2]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:10:48 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:09:13 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: DEVAS cannot move away--Correction Message-ID: <92DFEC1D7F378F938525673E0057E862.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 392 yesterday Ferdinand wrote to correct my mistatement of info from him and further down is the original post, misremember by me! : <> Here is a post from the end of July, surrounding a discussion which I believe Christine initiated in a thread on GMO's. This list has been focused on this issue, for quite some time! (Christine) <> Ferdinand wrote in response: <,"Monsanto and Novartis and many others secretly changed the very basis on which we are standing by introducing fertilizers that ruined the soil. And now, as the soil is kaputt, they can introduce the GMOs. Already with the introduction of a host of chemicals, fertilizers, weed killers etc. the elementals could not take properly hold of the plants any longer. They fled to the mountains, the NOrth, the few places that are not (yet) sprayed. Steiner indicated around 1920 that the elementals were leaving Southern and Central Europe for the North. Then, Ita Wegman indicated, later, that the Elementals will move further West, North West. It is said that she indicated that they will stay as long as possible in the North (BC, Yukon, Alaska, NW Territorries) and that a future re-greening of the earth 'may' eventually come from there. Mr. Francis Edmunds (Emerson College) implored that we start islands of culture (agri-culture and art-culture). Those will be the places to which the elementals will be attracted and active in. Mind you, it ain't easy to work with them. Many have lost confidence in mankind. I could give you personal experiences of what they do if and when they are fed up with us : tornadoes, hail, earthquakes, heat waves, floods and so forth. Dr. Steiner was clear that by the end of this Century, massive natural cathastrophes would hit this planets. And their origin? A massively hurt and angered elemental world.">> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 24 16:03:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA12362 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:03:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24869; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:54:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from anat.ncds.net (anat.ncds.net [207.250.242.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24463 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:52:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from pavilion (p01-76.ffxp.ncds.net [207.250.242.251]) by anat.ncds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7-sp) with SMTP id JAA23345 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:55:35 -0600 Message-ID: <00c201be761f$d2a2c920$fbf2facf@pavilion> From: "parker" To: Subject: exit Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:57:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BF_01BE75DC.C3A555C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 393 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BF_01BE75DC.C3A555C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List- I have so much enjoyed my winter experience on the list, but am now out = at the farm. Beautifully the place is so remote that we only have a = cellular phone, so calls are too expensive and with my primitive sense( = or lack there of) of turning a wild perrenial field by hand, time is of = the essence. I will try and pick up this thread when i am situated at = school in Arizona in the fall. My best to everyone on the coming season, = and to the off season for those down under.=20 Take care, Parker ------=_NextPart_000_00BF_01BE75DC.C3A555C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have so much enjoyed my = winter=20 experience on the list, but am now out at the farm. Beautifully the = place is so=20 remote that we only have a cellular phone, so calls are too expensive = and with=20 my primitive sense( or lack there of) of turning a wild perrenial field = by hand,=20 time is of the essence. I will try and pick up this thread when i am = situated at=20 school in Arizona in the fall. My best to everyone on the coming season, = and to=20 the off season for those down under.
Dear List-
 
Take care,
Parker
------=_NextPart_000_00BF_01BE75DC.C3A555C0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 24 17:52:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15838 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:52:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28442; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:15:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27797 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:13:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d159.infoserve.net [199.175.157.159]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA14794; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:18:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001d01be763b$9acc9780$9f9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: "curtis lange" Cc: Subject: Fw: OFF/ debunking GE/ GEN3-24 UK Parliament, plus Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:15:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 394 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 12:00 PM Subject: GEN3-24 UK Parliament, plus >Here is a website for the text of an excellent talk entitled > >"Debunking the Myths of Genetic Engineering in Field Crops" > >by E. Ann Clark, PhD, Plant Agriculture, University of Guelph, Guelph, ON >(aclark@plant.uoguelph.ca) > >It was Presented to Alternatives, Kitchener, ON Canada 2 March 99 > >http://www.oac.uoguelph.ca/www/CRSC/faculty/eac/myths.htm > >More essays on GE are at Dr. Clark's website, >http://www.oac.uoguelph.ca/www/CRSC/faculty/eac.htm > >......... > >next articles Posted Tue, 23 Mar 1999 by: Paul Davis , >who said: > >In a UK Parliament debate on the World Trade Organisation, Monsanto came >under heavy fire. Their appalling research on BST, corrupt politics, >manipulation of vetting agencies and potential damage all came under the >microscope. The following speaker also pointed out that Parliament was >lagging behind the public, who have already 'cottoned-on' to Monsanto's >crooked ways. > >............. > >Monsanto blasted in UK Parliament Debate Pt 1 > >Text from UK Parliament: > >Mr. Simpson, M.P.: >The history of Monsanto's interests in bovine somatotropin milk and >genetically modified crops is littered with the company buying its way into >public policy decisions in its favour. Last week, evidence was published to >show that the science on BST milk is wretched, the politics corrupt and the >consequences for human and environmental health potentially devastating. > >Monsanto faces a ruling either from us or from the European Union >collectively that says that we are deeply unhappy about removing the ban on >BST milk, because of the damage to livestock and the potential damage to >human beings. > >There are public movements against genetically modified crops. When >Monsanto threatens to take us and the EU to the World Trade Organisation in >pursuit of the free trade rights that it claims, it overlooks the fact that >it has systematically sought to hide from politicians and the public the >downside of all the magic science that it is sailing past us. > >Monsanto has failed even to conduct the necessary broader-based research on >environmental damage. It wants the right to pursue new monopolies in >monocultures that it controls and that will be fundamentally >self-destructive. It is an irony that, in the pursuit of free trade rights, >Monsanto does not happily own up to the fact that it is invoking the part >of the Uruguay agreement that gave it closed markets: the TRIPS agreements >on trade in intellectual property rights. Those agreements allow the >company to take out patents on the crops that it modifies and, in some >parts of the developing world, it slaps patents on crops that it has found. >Its rights to patent life are attempts to remove from common ownership >things that we have had since civilisation has existed. The company also >seeks to take away rights from democratically elected Governments to >protect the diversity of their environments and adequately to protect the >health needs of their citizens. > >If Monsanto obtains the rights to introduce the terminator technology as >part of any WTO ruling, it will have the right not only to take ownership >of life itself, but to take out a patent on death. The company says that it >has encountered no problems in its experiments in the United States, but >one needs only to look at the vast acreage of GM crops on the prairies of >Arizona where, apart from the Monsanto crops, the land is sterile. It has >been soaked in the company's herbicide. It does not have a weed problem >because nothing else can grow. When Monsanto is asked about the impact of >its actions on bio-diversity, its representatives throw up their hands and >say that it is not an issue for them. > >The company has manipulated the rules of the vetting agencies in a way that >is technically brilliant, but ethically corrupt and degrading for humanity. >We have to be prepared to make a stand against that. We easily forget, in >this country and in Europe, that there is no public demand for GM foods and >no agricultural need for them. The GM process has been driven past the >advisory committees on the basis that it is the science that will save >humanity, but it is the science that will turn bad research into huge >corporate profits at huge social cost. > >As a Parliament, we have been slow to catch up with the public's >understanding of the issue. They know, in ways that we are only beginning >to acknowledge, that Monsanto's claims about safety are bogus. The public >know now that Monsanto's research on milk was fiddled. They know that the >inclusion of GM soya with the rest of the soya crop was the result of >calculated efforts by Monsanto to discover whether the public would buy GM >produce if it were clearly identified. The company knew that the public >would not do so, and it manipulated the regulatory regime in the USA so >that it did not have to meet the obligation to identify it. The >environmental damage falls outside the terms of the monitoring agencies in >the USA. > >As we debate the relationship between Britain, Europe, the USA and the >World Trade Organisation, we must understand that people have given up >waiting for a parliamentary lead. There are good reasons for that: we have >a 200-year history of the public taking food safety disputes into our own >hands. It was about 200 years ago when the first of Britain's food riots >was caused by the adulteration of food. Farmers adulterated flour with >sawdust and supplied the flour as part of the workers' wages. The riots >were about whether anyone had the right to adulterate food in that way and >I say with some pride that that was the momentum behind the Rochdale >co-operative. The people wanted to be able to provide food that was safe >for themselves and their children to eat. The same is happening now in the >riots in India. > >The "Cremate Monsanto" campaign is not waiting for a Government lead before >burning the fields of GM crops that they do not want. The campaign is being >led by farmers and villagers who foresee the destruction of biodiversity in >pursuit of corporate greed. It is echoed by the coalition of developing >world countries who, at the Cartagena biosafety convention, said that they >wanted the right to say no to such produce in order to protect their >biodiversity. Any international trade agreement that fails to deal with >workers' rights or environmental and food sustainability will not be worth >adhering to. Social movements in France and Canada are attempting to take >direct action to challenge the corporate rights assumed by today's global >giants. > >We should bear in mind the public movements staking similar claims in >relation to genetically modified foods in today's supermarkets. If the >United States of America and the food corporations are to threaten us with >a trade war and World Trade Organisation rulings that define our actions as >illegal, we must reply that the British public would probably deem a trade >war to feed safe food to ourselves and our children a war worth fighting. > >Those who want to open up the market without ethical or safety constraints >are backing a horse that the public will not bet on. Rulings may go in >their favour, but if Monsanto and the USA win the right to dump unsafe >foods in United Kingdom markets, we can overrule that right with a civic >right to dump those products in the sea or leave them stockpiled at >supermarket check-outs. We can assert our right not to buy something that >we believe to be endangering our health, the environmental viability of our >country and the international sustainability of relationships in vulnerable >economies. > >....... > >Monsanto blasted in UK Parliament Pt 2 > >Mr. Norman Baker M.P. >Monsanto has made itself public enemy No. 1. It has bulldozed elected >Governments across the world and forced its wretched products on to the >world's population, whether we want them or not. Monsanto must be brought >urgently under democratic control. If the WTO rules permit such activities, >they are wrong and must be changed. If we are not careful, Monsanto will >become the bad news story of the 21st century. The company must be stopped. > >Monsanto has deliberately refused to segregate GM and non-GM crops in order >to deny consumer choice--something to which all hon. Members are committed. >Monsanto also wishes to introduce GM crops, regardless of the possible >environmental consequences. We know from the Advisory Committee on Releases >to the Environment, other Government advisory bodies and from the EU that >there are significant environmental concerns about GM crops. Monsanto does >not want to wait: it wants to steamroller those crops through and give us >no alternative. When the crops are planted and problems arise, Monsanto >will say, "Never mind, let's deal with it now." > >The company wants to undermine alternative sources of non-GM crops. It is >trying to stop us buying non-GM soya from Brazil by buying up Brazil and >halting alternative supplies from that country. Monsanto is the antithesis >of democracy. It is not worried about labelling; it is trying to persuade >us that it is not necessary and that it is somehow a barrier to free trade. >What nonsense. We are entitled to know what we are buying. To be fair, the >Government have accepted that. They have always been committed to >labelling. Monsanto does not want labelling: it wants its products to carry >as little information as possible. It knows that if its products are >labelled accurately--and they are not because most GM material is not >labelled under the present regulations--people will not buy them, and it >does not want that. > >Monsanto has been forcing crops into India and onto the developing >countries of the third world. It has intimidated farmers in the United >States by hiring private investigators and then fining farmers when a >Monsanto seed is found in their soil. > >In this country, Monsanto has been condemned by the Advertising Standards >Authority, which found it guilty of making > > "wrong . . . unproven, misleading and confusing claims" > >in a £1 million campaign. > >How does Monsanto manage to do all that? It uses the revolving door policy, >and makes sure that personnel from Monsanto and Government agency advisory >bodies frequently switch positions. Marcia Hale, the former adviser to the >US President, is now the director of international government affairs for >the Monsanto corporation. Michael Kantnor, the former secretary to the US >department of commerce is now a member of the Monsanto corporation board. >Josh King, the former director of production for White House events, is now >the director of global communications for the Monsanto corporation. >Margaret Miller, the former chemical laboratory supervisor for Monsanto, is >now the deputy director of the new animal drug evaluation office in the US >Food and Drug Administration. We have seen confidential European Union >documents that have been passed to Monsanto by Dr. Nick Weber of the FDA, >and a former Monsanto analyst. > >Monsanto is abusing and twisting the system and getting from it as much as >it can. It is getting the Food and Drug Administration on board and it is >getting the US to fight its corner. I am in favour of free trade and the >World Trade Organisation, but I am not in favour of one company so using >its muscle and contriving matters for its own ends that the opportunity for >consumer choice and Government decisions by democratic bodies is >effectively removed. > >Dan Verakis, the public relations manager for Monsanto in the UK, has said, >"Everybody here hates us." I have to tell Monsanto that I hate it. It is >the antithesis of democracy and it needs to be stopped. > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic/geindex.html >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 for 12 months, payable to "BanGEF" and mailed to the above >address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 24 20:17:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA18373 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:17:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA00480; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:02:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA29898 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:58:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dirkers@juno.com) by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D6H27ZAL; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:56:46 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Cc: ghein@reach.net, donnas@yancey.main.nc.us Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:04:14 -0600 Subject: Re: Study: Horsetail info Message-ID: <19990324.184117.12222.0.Dirkers@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-6,10-18,20-40 From: Christopher P Dirkers Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 395 I have acres of horsetail growing on my bottom land. We can supply it dried or as root cuttings. Give a shout if you are interested and we can negotiate further. Donna: we used to live in Wilkes Co., then Catawba Co. N.C. Are you in Yancey Co. N.C.? Christopher Dirkers -------------------------------------- Located in the beautiful Ozarks, Dirkers' Pleasant Valley School and Farm is dedicated to providing nourishment for mind and body. We raise pure, nutritionally enhanced produce, herbs, and pastured poultry. Classes include Family Preparedness, Health & Agronomy, and Scriptural Law. Dirkers' Pleasant Valley School & Farm HC62, Box 370-A Calico Rock, Arkansas. U.S.A. (72519) 870-297-8040 or dirkers@juno.com On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:49:46 -0500 ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) writes: >>Pam, >>Do you know of a source for plants for equisetum arvense. >> >>I have seen other equisetum (hymale) sold for pondscaping....... but >not >>even Richters offers arvense as a live plant.....only as dried herb. >>donaterra > >Thanks for starting this thread on Horsetail, Pam. > >Where can one get seeds or plants, then? I noticed the Richter's >lapse. >I've got a lot of nettle seedlings growing well. So...how does one get >hold >of horsetail, other than the dried prep material? > >Geoff Heinricks >Prince Edward Co., Ontario > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 24 22:38:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20046 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:38:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12780; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:25:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12578 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:23:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([203.96.109.160]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990325032545.TUYK4957949.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:25:45 +1200 Message-ID: <36F9ACE6.7A26@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:26:30 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Neptune and Pluto conjuction 1892 - misinformation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 396 While wandering through a book today I discovered my dates for the Neptune Pluto conjunction at the end of last century were wrong and that the right dates was in August and November 1891 and April 1892. Interestingly this event occurred at 8 degrees Gemini at the time. Which is opposite to where Pluto is now. This means Pluto is in the 'full moon' phase of its cycle to this point, remembering it is conjunct to the fixed star - Antares - Which it rules also now. Neptune the Mystical Life Spirit and Pluto the Sharmanic Spirit Man are a power packed team when they get together and their cycle will indicate a major process of human spiritual evolution and hopefully big door ways for humanity to be conscious controllers of spiritual forces standing behind matter. The people born in 1892ish will have carried this impulse in their beings and could have built upon a growing mysticism which was coming to consciousness through the 19th century. I believe that a period of thirty years of utter turmoil starting in 1914 - when these people were 22 - in the heartland of this spiritual revolution -Europe- set back and killed very many of the cosmos's foot soldiers of this evolution. Many of the creations of this time have been used by a small minority of humanity, while us 'consumers' are only once again gaining access to the possibilities budding into full power then. What has survived and is becoming available now is being picked up again and used as best we can. Pluto at this time (and Neptune in 1972) challenges humanity to find the sharmanic/spirit self consciousness within our beings and to bring this as a potential into our every day lives. The cosmic time clock says now is the moment and regardless of the setbacks humanity has experienced in the process, the seeds from the collective unconscious of history and this century, remains available for us - from the collective unconscious - now, for us to be an expression of this possibility. Neptune in 1972 may be seen as the mystical /inner initiation of humanity into this, while 1999 is the chance for the sharmanic / will manifestation of this impulse. This time it is going to manifest big time, no just as an inner experience. Pluto (to me) is primarily about the empowerment of the incarnated spirit to conscious universally harmonic action. Its lesser manifestations come as power struggles for ultimate control and all that stems from that. Just looking around provides many examples of this taking place in many ways. So while we are confronting GE and materio-capitio consumerism, I also see many reality cracks opening up, where RSs work (and many others) provide us with the tools to create the creative changes the universe is also hoping for. Decisions are made at 'full moon' times , with the last half of the cycle providing the unfolding and manifesting process of that change. So we stand at the decision table, now. We are part of the big event which determines the next 100 or so years. The judgement is not given till the judge drops his hammer, which is possibly around 17 November 1999. Pluto, Chiron and Antares all conjunct during these months around 9 Sagittarius. The 20th of January and then the 8th of May 1999 are the other two times this event is occurring this year. Pluto was at 8deg. Sagittarius 12.98, 6&7.99 then 9&10.99 So dear companions, cosmic moments are afoot and we are this seasons people, if we make the jump, its jumped! Cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 25 03:09:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA22851 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 03:09:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA06910; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 02:54:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA06684 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 02:51:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.139.134] (max16-20.stc.net [208.210.138.148]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA02036 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 02:54:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36F91272.B3C6996D@digisys.net> References: <199932321434935705@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:50:29 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: [cg] What's Up in Biotechnology, Genetic Engineering Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 397 There's a lot of energy stored in the ground. This is one of a 100 reasons why I've been saying that horn clay is the greatest discovery ever made in biodynamic agriculture. Others will come to realize that this is true. The second greatest discovery is #800. Be sure to bury some horn basalt horns NOW so you can make it next year. I will send you some of my supply if you want to try it this year. Let me know. Also, don't forget to bury some horn sulfur and horn copper (sulfate). You might also try some horn sodium molybdate but I can't tell you why now. Use different holes if you can and line them with plenty of BD compost. For a little extra kick on the summer sulfur, sprinkle a little (as in small amount) of 508 leaves on the ground on top of the filled hole. That will have quite an effect. You might want to try one hole with horn sulfur w/o 508 and one with 508 and check it radionically. Don't try this with 501 though unless you are going to Dear Greg, I'm taking off for a weekend of workshops in Kansas. You can bet I will mention horn clay. As for Courtney, he's really not too conservative and will do the horn clay work I believe. He may need an impetus, as I did. As for some of the more exotic stuff he'll probably pass, though I don't know this. Courtney, like myself, is a busy guy, and that's a factor. Since I supply Courtney with barrel compost, and I ALWAYS put a sprinkling of equisetum on the top of every barrel, he'll get some of my type BC. It's always been a little different than his, but enough better in quality that he has always taken all I could produce. He's got great storage facilities, which I haven't. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." --Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 25 12:20:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02849 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:20:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17871; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:02:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from connect1.reach.net (root@connect1.reach.net [204.50.58.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26458 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:22:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.186.53.9] (E09.reach.net [206.186.53.9]) by connect1.reach.net (8.9.1-wasp/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA05457 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:24:04 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:24:04 -0500 X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Re: [cg] What's Up in Biotechnology, Genetic Engineering Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 398 >The second greatest discovery is #800. Be sure to bury >some horn basalt horns NOW so you can make it next year. I will send >you some of my supply if you want to try it this year. Let me know. > >Also, don't forget to bury some horn sulfur and horn copper (sulfate). Hugh, As a grape grower, horn sulfur and copper sulfate caught my eye. I know what these are used for in vineyards (mildew control). What are their uses in BD? And what exactly is, and what are the uses and properties of #800? Geoff Heinricks Prince Edward Co. Ontario From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 25 12:21:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02864 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:21:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18324; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:04:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from russian-caravan.cloud9.net (russian-caravan.cloud9.net [168.100.1.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15340 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:33:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from cloud9.net (mtoro.dialup.cloud9.net [168.100.205.209]) by russian-caravan.cloud9.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDC1576351 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:34:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36FA642A.1F0EFDEA@cloud9.net> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:28:26 -0500 From: Mark Santoro X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: No till versus Double Digging References: <002801be6f62$d433df40$f3f2facf@pavilion> <36EDCC5B.DB1078FB@direct.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 399 Hello, Regarding no-till vs tilling: While I am just a neophyte, I am not sure I understand why tilling is needed at all after perhaps an initial tilling followed by the application of compost. Would not the worms add enough aeration to the soil? Also, if the soil is constantly stirred up by tilling methods, how does homeostasis ever come about or is that not really an issue with the soil? Lastly, wouldn't a cover crop that incorporates long roots work well to aerate the soil? Simply letting the crop die in place or cutting it would leave all those long roots throughout the soil. Thanks, Mark From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 25 15:17:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09969 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:17:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11226; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:02:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.cyberhighway.net (smtp1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.33]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24212 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:02:12 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903251802.NAA24212@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 27015 invoked from network); 25 Mar 1999 10:58:28 -0700 Received: from ts2-12.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO ?209.161.18.163?) (209.161.18.163) by smtp1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 25 Mar 1999 10:58:28 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:57:34 -0700 Subject: BD compost in arid climate From: "Pam DeTray" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 400 Is anyone else on this list working in an arid climate like mine (annual precip 7") or do you have experience in this? My helper and I are building a large compost windrow of old and new cow and bull manure, last season's dead flowers, which we're adding in layers as the manure comes in, kitchen scraps, and whatever else we can get our hands on. My helper questioned the wisdom of watering the dead stuff once it's on the pile. He feels the moisture in the new manure is sufficient. I go by the "wrung-out sponge" theory of how wet is wet enough, and want to water each layer of dead stuff before adding manure on top. I've seen what can happen in this climate with piles that didn't get enough moisture. Some things can remain intact for years in this climate. I'm not using a shredder, just putting the dead growth (silver king, yarrows, daylilies, iris, etc.) in alternate layers with the manure. However, it's been a long time since I worked with cow manure, so I don't have personal experience to go on here. The base of the pile has a lot of tarragon and other larger dried or partially dried stuff, including some old woody stuff. On top of that is some aged manure. The next layer is dried flower/foliage, and he came in with the next manure load before I could get that watered to my satisfaction. That manure layer didn't cover, but kind of filled in around it, and that's where I was watering when my helper questioned the wisdom of watering. I'm not sure there's enough moisture in there, but on top of that is a load of really wet manure. My helper doesn't have much gardening experience, but he's been reading my BD books for several weeks and learns quickly. I would really appreciate any advice! (Yes, I'm also trying to listen to the deva, but want to hear from you as well.) Do any books exist on working with BD in an arid climate? Thanks! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 25 15:18:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09990 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:18:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11448; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:02:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09157 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:48:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.27]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:53:15 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:51:34 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Nuclear Dump Opening Message-ID: <2B7C0508C3737A138525673F006D0AEA.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 401 Kieran Clifford on 03/25/99 11:15:00 AM Please respond to clifford@citizen.org To: cmep-list@lists.citizen.org cc: Subject: FWD: Nuclear Dump Opening ===================================== Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project ===================================== ===== Original Message from APIERSMA@CITIZEN (Auke Piersma) at 3/25/99 10:23 am Folks, The following message is from a close ally of CMEP and we fully support their effort to prevent the opening of a nuclear waste dump in New Mexico for a special type of defense waste. Please call the Secretary of Energy today and voice your opposition to dumping nuclear waste in an unstable and unsafe site. _________________________________________________ From: Alliance for Nuclear Accountability We are trying to pull out all the stops on this one. They are actually planning on loading TRU (transuranic, - plutonium contaminated waste) in the WIPP facility in New Mexico tomorrow. (For those just tuning in, WIPP is a dump facility, first dreamed up by DOE in the 1950's, which would bury TRU waste in salt domes. The area contains significant mineral resources which could be mined by future, unsuspecting residents. Additionally the site is not stable and rooms have collapsed and it has been unable to meet radiation release standards.) We have been fighting this facility for decades, and if they succeed in loading waste into the facility, it would be a huge loss for all of us working on protecting the environment. It also is being opened in advance of a required State permit licensing the facility. So if you are working on States' Rights, this is for you also! DOE promised they wouldn't ship waste until they had the State permit, but DOE promises are useless. Please take a moment to place a call or drop in a fax to Energy Secretary Richardson and tell him to stop this shipment! I know you all are busy, but I urge you to take 5 and do this now! It may be your only chance. alert included, also attached in formatted version. Thanks, Maureen please also forward this email to any who might help. EMERGENCY ACTION ALERT! CALL OR FAX SECRETARY RICHARDSON TODAY! PH: 202-586-6210 FAX: 202-586-4403 STOP WIPP! STOP NUCLEAR WASTE! March 24, 1999 - The Department of Energy plans to ship nuclear waste to the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant in New Mexico starting as early as this evening! DOE plans to load waste into this facility even though the State has not granted a license to operate the facility, and numerous studies have shown that it is not safe. DOE plans to load transuranic (plutonium contaminated) waste from the Los Alamos Lab into the WIPP facility tomorrow, even though DOE has promised in the past it would not send waste there until the State of New Mexico had licensed the facility. They plan to ship more waste from Idaho in the next few weeks. Opening this waste dump over the objections of the State, the people, and common sense spells a dangerous new era in which nuclear waste expediency runs roughshod over environmental and social justice concerns. THE TIME TO ACT IS NOW! THIS IS A TURNING POINT, WHAT HAPPENS IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS CAN AFFECT ALL OUR WORK ON NUCLEAR WASTE! CALL OR FAX SECRETARY RICHARDSON PH: 202-586-6210 FAX: 202-586-4403 TELL HIM YOU DON'T WANT WASTE TO GO TO WIPP! TELL HIM NOT TO DESTROY STATES' RIGHTS! For further information contact: Alliance for Nuclear Accountability at 202-833-4668. ===== Comments by CLIFFORD@CITIZEN (Kieran Clifford) at 3/25/99 11:14 am Kieran Clifford Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project 202-546-4996, ext.324 Visit our website: http://www.citizen.org/cmep Questions about the CMEP-list can be directed to cmep@citizen.org From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 25 15:18:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA10003 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:18:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11603; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:03:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10361 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:58:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.5]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:03:13 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:01:32 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Request Forwarded from CSA Message-ID: <7C15555AA6C7A6A48525673F006DF09F.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA10363 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 402 I find myself in an interesting predicament. I am much more than an apprentice, but less than an independent farm manager. More like a CSA manager / Apprentice Coordinator / Co-Manager that works with a team of managers. It is not that I can?t run a farm by my lonesome, but I won?t do it. I don?t want to. I want community. More importantly, it is getting late to join the 1999 growing season. I am deeply committed to sustainability and sustainable agriculture in particular. It is for this reason that I have directed my energy to observing the environment and how we exist in it. As Sandra Faber, a scientist at UC Santa Cruz, puts it, ?all our telescopes looking billions of light years into space have not found one thing to compare in beauty, complexity or wonder to our own planet Earth.? My goal is to help guide our ?moral compass?, providing us with a long term strategy for successfully and sustainably existing here. I have excellent research and organizational skills and am longing for a stage to use them along with my commitment to sustainable agriculture and my agricultural skills. I am very personable and I want to take my experiences ever further, into a realm where I am part of a team of growers, activists, and organizers that run a CSA and education group. I don?t feel that I am currently using my skills to the best of my ability in terms of education and the distribution of information sustainable, etc. Last year I frequented the Catskill Mountains of New York, where I worked as the Production Grower and Assistant Horticulture Therapist at Green Chimneys Children?s Services, a residential treatment facility for emotionally disturbed youth. I was hired as grower at Boni-Bel Farm after one quarter of the season passed me by. The management was in a bind because the previous grower left on short notice, with most of her volunteers. I happened to be in the right place. There were four acres under transitional organic production, whose ?mission? was to supply produce and vocational experience for 120 students and any of the 200 staff at the facility. I feel that Green Chimneys started the program to boast an organic farm. I was the fifth grower in the farm?s young five year life, an unsustainable pattern. Unfortunately I wasn?t given a chance or much support and was working alone for most of the season, except for occasional volunteers and classes. Previously I attended graduate school in NYC as a non-matriculated student studying the environmental problems of urban and metropolitan coasts and I did two apprenticeships and worked on local farms. I am very flexible and therefore open to all opportunities that may arise. If you are looking for such an individual or know someone who is please pass on my info or contact me directly. I am glad to furnish a resume and references. Also, I am looking for other sites where I may post this on the net. Thanks for letting me ramble. Jared William Volpe nuarez@yahoo.com e-mail happens to be the best way to reach me 516-756-0037 Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 25 15:25:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA10167 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:25:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13380; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:11:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13157 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:10:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.15]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:14:58 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:13:17 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Part time job opening Message-ID: <7484EAA1A5381EE58525673F006EEFDF.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 403 To: NE community food systems cc: Subject: Part time job opening Farm/Garden People: Last year, Nancy Sableski, an experienced farm intern, thought up the concept and started a Children's Learning Garden at our Farm (Waltham Fields Community Farm -- 4 acres at UMASS Extension, Waltham, with produce harvested for food pantries and meal programs, also wholesale price farmer's market at city housing complex, volunteers encouraged). Although our Farm often had school and camp groups, generally they just came once to volunteer. Nancy's concept was to engage the kids over a longer period of time (the summer!) so they could see the seed grow into a veggie, etc. She planted a Native American and other ethnic gardens, including flowers and herbs, and had the children actively engaged in planting, cultivating, harvesting, eating garden salads, doing crafts, learning about soil, insects, weather, etc. Kids from Cambridge Camping and the Girl Scouts came (Cambridge Camping a summer camp for low income kids, the girl scouts came to camp across the street, actually mostly 5 and 6 years old!). Unfortunately Nancy cannot continue directing this program (mostly for economic reasons), so we're looking for a Director (also an assistant). The directorship amounts to a 20 hour a week job at $12 June through August, the assistant 20 hours for July and August at $8.00. People interested should send a resume to W.F.C.F., 333 Moody Street #201, Waltham, MA 02453. Thanks! Oakes Plimpton From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 25 15:57:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA10944 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:57:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18965; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:41:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18744 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:40:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.25]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:45:31 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:43:50 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Spring Equinox Message-ID: <6037A9E30A9E13E98525673F0071B679.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 404 <> Dear Cheryl, Thanks for your loving thoughts and deep reminders to us here in the northern hemisphere, that all is balance! May your dreams spin into harmonious manifestation! (and delicious soups!) Happy Autumn and Winter to you! Jane Sherry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 25 16:31:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA11940 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:31:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA23189; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:16:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22788 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.6]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:54:41 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:53:00 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: (forwarded) looking for farm apprentices in NY Message-ID: <678EDDD48F0984648525673F0072A9A0.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 405 Threshold Farm is looking for two apprentices from April- Nov and June through August. Please do not write back to me! Write to: Hugh Williams and Hanna Bail Threshold Farm P.O. Box 701 Claverack, NY 12513 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 25 17:42:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA13795 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:42:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03108; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:23:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA02642 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:20:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d151.infoserve.net [199.175.157.151]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA25151 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:26:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003701be770e$380a5000$979dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: natural disasters/DEVAS cannot move away--Correction Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:20:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 406 -----Original Message----- From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US To: Michael Roboz Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 12:16 PM Subject: Re: natural disasters/DEVAS cannot move away--Correction >I wish you'd write some of this and post it to the list. It's really >interesting! > > > > >"Michael Roboz" on 03/24/99 04:12:53 PM >To: janesherry@webcity-development.com >cc: >Subject: Re: natural disasters/DEVAS cannot move away--Correction > >I could also add to Ferdy's comments about natural disasters referring to >the AUg. 11, 1999 Grand Cross. It points to the same. RS also said that >passions lead to angering the part of the Earth known as Fire Earth (I >forget which level it is of the 9). These passions lead to more frequent >and >stronger earthquakes and volcanos. Just think about the last few years. >QED. The elementals, of course, are servents of higher sp. beings, so I >can >see why Ferdy said that we angered the elementals. There are many levels >of >elementals. > As for elementals moving to the N. European countries. I took that to >mean that the elementals we want to cultivate still survive there and more >people in those areas are sensitive to them. Down south, other elementals >may have been more active and evoked and less people sensitive. > Ferdy, himself, has had his share of disasters. Fires, floods, etc., >where he is now. Mind you, he had fires at the old farm also. I think >there >is more behind it. >M. >-----Original Message----- >From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 11:50 AM >Subject: Re: DEVAS cannot move away--Correction > > >>yesterday Ferdinand wrote to correct my mistatement of info from him and >>further down is the original post, misremember by me! : >> >> <>I said that Dr. Steiner gave a lecture on >>elemental beings and indicated that they had started (in about 1911) to >>move towards the Northern Countries of Europe such as Finland, Sweden, >>Norway etc. >> >>Devas are not moving away, (and should I have said that they do so, it >>is an error or an error in my printing - but I definitely did not mean a >>moving away of the devas) Devas are NOT moving like elemental beings.>> >> >>Here is a post from the end of July, surrounding a discussion which I >>believe Christine initiated in a thread on GMO's. This list has been >>focused on this issue, for quite some time! >> >>(Christine) <>have as many >>biodynamic sites as possible for living spaces for healthy elementals. >>Walking >>in Ireland you can just tell where elementals have abandoned poisoned >>places, >>just as the birds have, and conversely at the site of the Cooleenbridge >>Waldorf School you have the feeling it's a vacation resort for them. They >>have >>flocked there from all over and are just dancing. This is especially >>obvious >>and shocking in that country where the divisions are thin. If genetically >>modified crops are grown with chemicals, the elementals will probably shun >>them anyway. If they are grown organically, how must they change their >form >>to >>adapt, or will they simply brew up a storm (or many, over many months) and >>then leave in disgust? >>Christine>> >> >>Ferdinand wrote in response: >><,"Monsanto and Novartis and many others secretly changed >>the very basis on which we are standing by introducing fertilizers that >>ruined the soil. And now, as the soil is kaputt, they can introduce the >>GMOs. Already with the introduction of a host of chemicals, fertilizers, >>weed killers etc. the elementals could not take properly hold of the >>plants any longer. They fled to the mountains, the NOrth, the few places >>that are not (yet) sprayed. Steiner indicated around 1920 that the >>elementals were leaving Southern and Central Europe for the North. Then, >>Ita Wegman indicated, later, that the Elementals will move further West, >>North West. It is said that she indicated that they will stay as long as >>possible in the North (BC, Yukon, Alaska, NW Territorries) and that a >>future re-greening of the earth 'may' eventually come from there. >>Mr. Francis Edmunds (Emerson College) implored that we start islands of >>culture (agri-culture and art-culture). Those will be the places to >>which the elementals will be attracted and active in. Mind you, it ain't >>easy to work with them. Many have lost confidence in mankind. I could >>give you personal experiences of what they do if and when they are fed >>up with us : tornadoes, hail, earthquakes, heat waves, floods and so >>forth. Dr. Steiner was clear that by the end of this Century, massive >>natural cathastrophes would hit this planets. And their origin? A >>massively hurt and angered elemental world.">> >> >> > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 25 17:54:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14038 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:54:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05277; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:39:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04904 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:36:30 -0500 (EST) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hRNWa21218 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:38:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:38:15 EST To: BDnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Hey Andrew! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 407 Hope I got your attention. Can I have your mailing address so I can send you the paperwork on the Malibu CSA farmer position? I just got the info yesterday. Regards, Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 25 19:04:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA16334 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:04:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA13395; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:49:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.frontiercoop.com (mail.frontiercoop.com [208.130.190.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13247 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:48:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from erica.renaud.frontiercoop.com (ERICA.RENAUD [172.16.10.152]) by mail.frontiercoop.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-37991U200L2S100) with SMTP id AAK1011 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:50:57 -0600 Date: 25 Mar 99 17:50:57 -0600 From: Erica Renaud Subject: RE:Fw: OFF/ debunking GE/ GEN3-24 UK Parliament, plus To: bdnow X-Mailer: QuickMail Pro 1.5.3b3 (Windows32) X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-ID: <19990325235050768.AAK1011@erica.renaud.frontiercoop.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id SAA13258 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 408 unsubscribe On 3/24/99, bdnow wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Richard Wolfson >To: info@natural-law.ca >Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 12:00 PM >Subject: GEN3-24 UK Parliament, plus > > >>Here is a website for the text of an excellent >talk entitled >> >>"Debunking the Myths of Genetic Engineering in >Field Crops" >> >>by E. Ann Clark, PhD, Plant Agriculture, >University of Guelph, Guelph, ON >>(aclark@plant.uoguelph.ca) >> >>It was Presented to Alternatives, Kitchener, ON >Canada 2 March 99 >> >>http://www.oac.uoguelph.ca/www/CRSC/faculty/eac/my >ths.htm >> >>More essays on GE are at Dr. Clark's website, >>http://www.oac.uoguelph.ca/www/CRSC/faculty/eac.ht >m >> >>......... >> >>next articles Posted Tue, 23 Mar 1999 by: Paul >Davis , >>who said: >> >>In a UK Parliament debate on the World Trade >Organisation, Monsanto came >>under heavy fire. Their appalling research on BST, >corrupt politics, >>manipulation of vetting agencies and potential >damage all came under the >>microscope. The following speaker also pointed out >that Parliament was >>lagging behind the public, who have already >'cottoned-on' to Monsanto's >>crooked ways. >> >>............. >> >>Monsanto blasted in UK Parliament Debate Pt 1 >> >>Text from UK Parliament: >> >>Mr. Simpson, M.P.: >>The history of Monsanto's interests in bovine >somatotropin milk and >>genetically modified crops is littered with the >company buying its way into >>public policy decisions in its favour. Last week, >evidence was published to >>show that the science on BST milk is wretched, the >politics corrupt and the >>consequences for human and environmental health >potentially devastating. >> >>Monsanto faces a ruling either from us or from the >European Union >>collectively that says that we are deeply unhappy >about removing the ban on >>BST milk, because of the damage to livestock and >the potential damage to >>human beings. >> >>There are public movements against genetically >modified crops. When >>Monsanto threatens to take us and the EU to the >World Trade Organisation in >>pursuit of the free trade rights that it claims, >it overlooks the fact that >>it has systematically sought to hide from >politicians and the public the >>downside of all the magic science that it is >sailing past us. >> >>Monsanto has failed even to conduct the necessary >broader-based research on >>environmental damage. It wants the right to pursue >new monopolies in >>monocultures that it controls and that will be >fundamentally >>self-destructive. It is an irony that, in the >pursuit of free trade rights, >>Monsanto does not happily own up to the fact that >it is invoking the part >>of the Uruguay agreement that gave it closed >markets: the TRIPS agreements >>on trade in intellectual property rights. Those >agreements allow the >>company to take out patents on the crops that it >modifies and, in some >>parts of the developing world, it slaps patents on >crops that it has found. >>Its rights to patent life are attempts to remove >from common ownership >>things that we have had since civilisation has >existed. The company also >>seeks to take away rights from democratically >elected Governments to >>protect the diversity of their environments and >adequately to protect the >>health needs of their citizens. >> >>If Monsanto obtains the rights to introduce the >terminator technology as >>part of any WTO ruling, it will have the right not >only to take ownership >>of life itself, but to take out a patent on death. >The company says that it >>has encountered no problems in its experiments in >the United States, but >>one needs only to look at the vast acreage of GM >crops on the prairies of >>Arizona where, apart from the Monsanto crops, the >land is sterile. It has >>been soaked in the company's herbicide. It does >not have a weed problem >>because nothing else can grow. When Monsanto is >asked about the impact of >>its actions on bio-diversity, its representatives >throw up their hands and >>say that it is not an issue for them. >> >>The company has manipulated the rules of the >vetting agencies in a way that > >>is technically brilliant, but ethically corrupt >and degrading for humanity. >>We have to be prepared to make a stand against >that. We easily forget, in >>this country and in Europe, that there is no >public demand for GM foods and >>no agricultural need for them. The GM process has >been driven past the >>advisory committees on the basis that it is the >science that will save >>humanity, but it is the science that will turn bad >research into huge >>corporate profits at huge social cost. >> >>As a Parliament, we have been slow to catch up >with the public's >>understanding of the issue. They know, in ways >that we are only beginning >>to acknowledge, that Monsanto's claims about >safety are bogus. The public >>know now that Monsanto's research on milk was >fiddled. They know that the >>inclusion of GM soya with the rest of the soya >crop was the result of >>calculated efforts by Monsanto to discover whether >the public would buy GM >>produce if it were clearly identified. The company >knew that the public >>would not do so, and it manipulated the regulatory >regime in the USA so >>that it did not have to meet the obligation to >identify it. The >>environmental damage falls outside the terms of >the monitoring agencies in >>the USA. >> >>As we debate the relationship between Britain, >Europe, the USA and the >>World Trade Organisation, we must understand that >people have given up >>waiting for a parliamentary lead. There are good >reasons for that: we have >>a 200-year history of the public taking food >safety disputes into our own >>hands. It was about 200 years ago when the first >of Britain's food riots >>was caused by the adulteration of food. Farmers >adulterated flour with >>sawdust and supplied the flour as part of the >workers' wages. The riots >>were about whether anyone had the right to >adulterate food in that way and >>I say with some pride that that was the momentum >behind the Rochdale >>co-operative. The people wanted to be able to >provide food that was safe >>for themselves and their children to eat. The same >is happening now in the >>riots in India. >> >>The "Cremate Monsanto" campaign is not waiting for >a Government lead before >>burning the fields of GM crops that they do not >want. The campaign is being >>led by farmers and villagers who foresee the >destruction of biodiversity in >>pursuit of corporate greed. It is echoed by the >coalition of developing >>world countries who, at the Cartagena biosafety >convention, said that they >>wanted the right to say no to such produce in >order to protect their >>biodiversity. Any international trade agreement >that fails to deal with >>workers' rights or environmental and food >sustainability will not be worth >>adhering to. Social movements in France and Canada >are attempting to take >>direct action to challenge the corporate rights >assumed by today's global >>giants. >> >>We should bear in mind the public movements >staking similar claims in >>relation to genetically modified foods in today's >supermarkets. If the >>United States of America and the food corporations >are to threaten us with >>a trade war and World Trade Organisation rulings >that define our actions as >>illegal, we must reply that the British public >would probably deem a trade >>war to feed safe food to ourselves and our >children a war worth fighting. >> >>Those who want to open up the market without >ethical or safety constraints >>are backing a horse that the public will not bet >on. Rulings may go in >>their favour, but if Monsanto and the USA win the >right to dump unsafe >>foods in United Kingdom markets, we can overrule >that right with a civic >>right to dump those products in the sea or leave >them stockpiled at >>supermarket check-outs. We can assert our right >not to buy something that >>we believe to be endangering our health, the >environmental viability of our >>country and the international sustainability of >relationships in vulnerable >>economies. >> >>....... >> >>Monsanto blasted in UK Parliament Pt 2 >> >>Mr. Norman Baker M.P. >>Monsanto has made itself public enemy No. 1. It >has bulldozed elected >>Governments across the world and forced its >wretched products on to the >>world's population, whether we want them or not. >Monsanto must be brought >>urgently under democratic control. If the WTO >rules permit such activities, >>they are wrong and must be changed. If we are not >careful, Monsanto will >>become the bad news story of the 21st century. The >company must be stopped. >> >>Monsanto has deliberately refused to segregate GM >and non-GM crops in order >>to deny consumer choice--something to which all >hon. Members are committed. >>Monsanto also wishes to introduce GM crops, >regardless of the possible >>environmental consequences. We know from the >Advisory Committee on Releases >>to the Environment, other Government advisory >bodies and from the EU that >>there are significant environmental concerns about >GM crops. Monsanto does >>not want to wait: it wants to steamroller those >crops through and give us >>no alternative. When the crops are planted and >problems arise, Monsanto >>will say, "Never mind, let's deal with it now." >> >>The company wants to undermine alternative sources >of non-GM crops. It is >>trying to stop us buying non-GM soya from Brazil >by buying up Brazil and >>halting alternative supplies from that country. >Monsanto is the antithesis >>of democracy. It is not worried about labelling; >it is trying to persuade >>us that it is not necessary and that it is somehow >a barrier to free trade. >>What nonsense. We are entitled to know what we are >buying. To be fair, the >>Government have accepted that. They have always >been committed to >>labelling. Monsanto does not want labelling: it >wants its products to carry >>as little information as possible. It knows that >if its products are >>labelled accurately--and they are not because most >GM material is not >>labelled under the present regulations--people >will not buy them, and it >>does not want that. >> >>Monsanto has been forcing crops into India and >onto the developing >>countries of the third world. It has intimidated >farmers in the United >>States by hiring private investigators and then >fining farmers when a >>Monsanto seed is found in their soil. >> >>In this country, Monsanto has been condemned by >the Advertising Standards >>Authority, which found it guilty of making >> >> "wrong . . . unproven, misleading and >confusing claims" >> >>in a £1 million campaign. >> >>How does Monsanto manage to do all that? It uses >the revolving door policy, >>and makes sure that personnel from Monsanto and >Government agency advisory >>bodies frequently switch positions. Marcia Hale, >the former adviser to the >>US President, is now the director of international >government affairs for >>the Monsanto corporation. Michael Kantnor, the >former secretary to the US >>department of commerce is now a member of the >Monsanto corporation board. >>Josh King, the former director of production for >White House events, is now >>the director of global communications for the >Monsanto corporation. >>Margaret Miller, the former chemical laboratory >supervisor for Monsanto, is >>now the deputy director of the new animal drug >evaluation office in the US >>Food and Drug Administration. We have seen >confidential European Union >>documents that have been passed to Monsanto by Dr. >Nick Weber of the FDA, >>and a former Monsanto analyst. >> >>Monsanto is abusing and twisting the system and >getting from it as much as >>it can. It is getting the Food and Drug >Administration on board and it is >>getting the US to fight its corner. I am in favour >of free trade and the >>World Trade Organisation, but I am not in favour >of one company so using >>its muscle and contriving matters for its own ends >that the opportunity for >>consumer choice and Government decisions by >democratic bodies is >>effectively removed. >> >>Dan Verakis, the public relations manager for >Monsanto in the UK, has said, >>"Everybody here hates us." I have to tell Monsanto >that I hate it. It is >>the antithesis of democracy and it needs to be >stopped. >> >>__________________________________________________ >_______ >>Richard Wolfson, PhD >>Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >>for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >>Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >>500 Wilbrod Street >>Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >>tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >>email: rwolfson@concentric.net >> >>Our website, http://www.natural- >law.ca/genetic/geindex.html >>contains more information on genetic engineering >as well as previous >>genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee >to genetic engineering >>news is $35 for 12 months, payable to "BanGEF" and >mailed to the above >>address. Or see website for details. >>__________________________________________________ >________ >>__________________________________________________ >________ >> >> >> > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > Return-Path: > Received: from envirolink.org >(manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) > by mail.frontiercoop.com (Post.Office >MTA v3.1.2 > release (PO205-101c) ID# 0- >37991U200L2S100) with ESMTP id AAA737 > for ; > Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:20:57 -0600 > Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id >QAA28227; > Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:14:53 -0500 (EST) > Received: from unix.infoserve.net >(0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) > by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id >QAA27797 > for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 >16:13:06 -0500 (EST) > Received: from mroboz (d159.infoserve.net >[199.175.157.159]) > by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP >id NAA14794; > Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:18:42 -0800 (PST) > Message-ID: ><001d01be763b$9acc9780$9f9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.ne >t> > From: "Michael Roboz" > To: "curtis lange" > Cc: > Subject: Fw: OFF/ debunking GE/ GEN3-24 UK >Parliament, plus > Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:15:47 -0800 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE >V4.72.3110.3 > Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by >CREN > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted- >printable by envirolink.org id QAA28227 > > Erica N.C. Renaud Organic Research Farm, Research Specialist Frontier Natural Products Co-op (319) 227 - 7996 ext.1373 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 25 20:35:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA17698 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:35:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA24720; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:21:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA24611 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.169] ("port 2049"@[148.233.186.169]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.11.13.11.10) with ESMTP id <0F96000IU22RJY@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:56:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:03:01 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: [cg] What's Up in Biotechnology, Genetic Engineering In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <36F91272.B3C6996D@digisys.net> <199932321434935705@ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 409 >There's a lot of energy stored in the ground. This is one of a 100 >reasons why I've been saying that horn clay is the greatest discovery >ever made in biodynamic agriculture. Others will come to realize that >this is true. The second greatest discovery is #800. Be sure to bury >some horn basalt horns NOW so you can make it next year. I will send >you some of my supply if you want to try it this year. Let me know. > >Also, don't forget to bury some horn sulfur and horn copper (sulfate). >You might also try some horn sodium molybdate but I can't tell you why >now. Use different holes if you can and line them with plenty of BD >compost. For a little extra kick on the summer sulfur, sprinkle a >little (as in small amount) of 508 leaves on the ground on top of the >filled hole. That will have quite an effect. You might want to try one >hole with horn sulfur w/o 508 and one with 508 and check it >radionically. Don't try this with 501 though unless you are going to > > >Dear Greg, > >I'm taking off for a weekend of workshops in Kansas. You can bet I will >mention horn clay. > >As for Courtney, he's really not too conservative and will do the horn clay >work I believe. He may need an impetus, as I did. As for some of the more >exotic stuff he'll probably pass, though I don't know this. Courtney, like >myself, is a busy guy, and that's a factor. > >Since I supply Courtney with barrel compost, and I ALWAYS put a sprinkling >of equisetum on the top of every barrel, he'll get some of my type BC. It's >always been a little different than his, but enough better in quality that >he has always taken all I could produce. He's got great storage facilities, >which I haven't. > >Best, > >Hugh Lovel >Blairsville, Georgia > >"No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." >--Walter Russell Dear Hugh: Can you give us the specifics about making this new preps and what is their presumed action and aplication strategy. I can wait until you came back and have nice and safe trip. Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 25 20:42:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA17785 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:42:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA25958; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:30:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ecpport2.midcoast.com.au (ecpport2.ecopost.com.au [203.28.64.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA25590 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:27:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (kmidc65-52.ecopost.com.au [203.28.65.52]) by ecpport2.midcoast.com.au (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA12257 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:30:34 +1100 Message-ID: <004c01be7730$790bbae0$33411ccb@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "D & S Chamberlain" To: "BDNOW" Subject: Re: BD compost in arid climate Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:28:04 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 410 Pam; Keep it moist if you want compost!! Here where we live in Australia we tend to have long dry spells and if we let the compost dry out it just sits there and does nothing. It also is difficult to remoisten once it does dry and as you will realise, quite often you will not have the water to put on the heap. So keep it moist, dive your hand in regularly and feel it. Cow manure in lumps and dry is particularly hard to remoisten. Keep those finger nails dirty David -----Original Message----- From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, 26 March, 1999 6:06 AM Subject: BD compost in arid climate > Is anyone else on this list working in an arid climate like mine (annual >precip 7") or do you have experience in this? > My helper and I are building a large compost windrow of old and new cow >and bull manure, last season's dead flowers, which we're adding in layers as >the manure comes in, kitchen scraps, and whatever else we can get our hands >on. > My helper questioned the wisdom of watering the dead stuff once it's on >the pile. He feels the moisture in the new manure is sufficient. I go by the >"wrung-out sponge" theory of how wet is wet enough, and want to water each >layer of dead stuff before adding manure on top. > I've seen what can happen in this climate with piles that didn't get >enough moisture. Some things can remain intact for years in this climate. > I'm not using a shredder, just putting the dead growth (silver king, >yarrows, daylilies, iris, etc.) in alternate layers with the manure. >However, it's been a long time since I worked with cow manure, so I don't >have personal experience to go on here. > The base of the pile has a lot of tarragon and other larger dried or >partially dried stuff, including some old woody stuff. On top of that is >some aged manure. The next layer is dried flower/foliage, and he came in >with the next manure load before I could get that watered to my >satisfaction. That manure layer didn't cover, but kind of filled in around >it, and that's where I was watering when my helper questioned the wisdom of >watering. I'm not sure there's enough moisture in there, but on top of that >is a load of really wet manure. > My helper doesn't have much gardening experience, but he's been reading >my BD books for several weeks and learns quickly. > I would really appreciate any advice! (Yes, I'm also trying to listen to >the deva, but want to hear from you as well.) Do any books exist on working >with BD in an arid climate? > >Thanks! > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Mar 25 23:52:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA20894 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:52:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17116; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:39:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA16905 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:37:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.77] (pm3shep3-163-116.intrepid.net [209.190.163.116]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA29335 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:40:25 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:43:05 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: OFF: Unusual Fruits Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 411 >From John Spencer >>Margaret: >> I worked at the NCGR in Corvallis for a year and Joseph Postman is a >>friend. This collaboration (as coverd in the release below) is something >>that I've encouraged myself, to get the government to work with private >>individuals more. In the past, the collected material was mainly available >>only to university and government researchers. Thanks to efforts of people >>like Joseph Postman, the Corvallis NCGR curator Dr. Kim Hummer (a woman) and >>others, the system now works a lot more with private people, both in making >>material avialable to them, and in accepting plant material from private >>collections. There are a lot of amateurs out there with wonderful >>collections that were being lost when the individuals died. This is one way >>to help preserve that material. >>Believe me, whatever one branch of the government is doing with companies >>like Monsanto, this work will help insure that there is still good plant >>material to work with when the GE dust settles. >>-Lon Rombough >>Grapes, unusual fruits, writing, more, at http://www.hevanet.com/lonrom >> >>---------- >>>From: margaret lauterbach >>>To: OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU >>>Subject: Re: FW: Growers' Group to Work With USDA Seed Banks >>>Date: Thu, Mar 25, 1999, 10:05 AM >>> >> >>>At 09:18 AM 3/25/99 -0800, you wrote: >>>>---------- >>>>From: "ARS News Service" >>>>To: "ARS News List" >>>>Subject: Growers' Group to Work With USDA Seed Banks >>>>Date: Thu, Mar 25, 1999, 6:47 AM >>>> >>>> >>>>STORY LEAD: >>>>Growers' Group to Work With USDA Seed Banks >>>> >>>>----------- >>>>ARS News Service >>>>Agricultural Research Service, USDA >>>>March 25, 1999 >>>>Jim De Quattro, (301) 504-1626, jdequattro@asrr.arsusda.gov >>>>----------- >>>> >>>>A budding cooperative project of researchers, organic growers and others >>>>that begins this week could help replenish the nation's seed banks. More >>>>important, it could create market opportunities for new public and heirloom >>>>crop varieties. >>>> >>>>The Agricultural Research Service, USDA's chief scientific agency, >maintains >>>>the National Plant Germplasm System. Its 27 repositories now hold about >>>>437,000 specimens of germplasm--seed, cuttings and other tissue. Thousands >>>>of accessions are added each year. Researchers worldwide use the germplasm >>>>to breed crops with improved yield, nutrition, resistance to pests, disease >>>>and environmental stress or other traits. >>>> >>>>ARS is cooperating with the Farmer Cooperative Genome Project to test a new >>>>way for organic growers, farmer cooperatives and small seed companies to >tap >>>>into this storehouse of genetic diversity. FCGP members will grow fresh >>>>supplies of germplasm, following NPGS guidelines. These ensure, for >example, >>>>that regenerated seed is true to type--not contaminated by pollen from >>>>nearby crops of the same species. >>>> >>>>FCGP members will also develop marketable new varieties from germplasm they >>>>may never have known about otherwise. For example, an ARS repository in >>>>Corvallis, Ore., has more than 400 heirloom pear varieties. In Pullman, >>>>Wash., ARS maintains more than 200 lines of garlic. These represent most of >>>>the crop's genetic diversity. Only a few varieties account for nearly all >>>>commercial production, according to horticulturist Richard Hannan. He's >>>>based at ARS' Western Regional Plant Introduction Station in Pullman. >>>> >>>>On March 27-28 in Salem, Ore., Hannan, Corvallis ARS plant pathologist >>>>Joseph Postman and other scientists are among scheduled panelists at FCGP's >>>>first general meeting. Other plants with FCGP potential include heirloom >>>>varieties and wild relatives of tomato, lettuce, bean, broccoli, Egyptian >>>>onion, radish, blue and other Native American corn, blackberry, strawberry, >>>>Turkish grain legumes and little-known herbs such as black cumin. >>>> >>>>More than 200 small family farmers, organic farmers, seed producers, >>>>breeders and others will participate in FCGP, according to J.J. Haapala. He >>>>is research and education director of Oregon Tilth, a growers' group in >>>>Salem that certifies organic growers and processors. Haapala administers a >>>>USDA Fund for Rural America grant to the FCGP. >>>> >>>>---------- >>>>Scientific contact: Richard M. Hannan, ARS Western Regional Plant >>>>Introduction Station, Pullman, Wash., phone (509) 335-1502, fax (509) >>>>335-6654, hannan@wsunix.wsu.edu. >>> >>>I have a big problem with this post. On the one hand, a division of USDA is >>>working with seed savers, and on the other hand, USDA is a partner in the >>>seed terminator business. Does the right hand know what the left hand is >>>doing? This counter-productivity has got to be costly to taxpayers, at the >>>very least. Margaret >>> >> >> > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 26 06:24:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA25547 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:24:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA04552; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA29841 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 04:15:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.169] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.169]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.11.13.11.10) with ESMTP id <0F9600L10WG6CA@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 00:53:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 00:59:20 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: BD compost in arid climate In-reply-to: <199903251802.NAA24212@envirolink.org> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id EAA29842 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 412 > Is anyone else on this list working in an arid climate like mine (annual >precip 7") or do you have experience in this? > My helper and I are building a large compost windrow of old and new cow >and bull manure, last season's dead flowers, which we're adding in layers as >the manure comes in, kitchen scraps, and whatever else we can get our hands >on. > My helper questioned the wisdom of watering the dead stuff once it's on >the pile. He feels the moisture in the new manure is sufficient. I go by the >"wrung-out sponge" theory of how wet is wet enough, and want to water each >layer of dead stuff before adding manure on top. > I've seen what can happen in this climate with piles that didn't get >enough moisture. Some things can remain intact for years in this climate. > I'm not using a shredder, just putting the dead growth (silver king, >yarrows, daylilies, iris, etc.) in alternate layers with the manure. >However, it's been a long time since I worked with cow manure, so I don't >have personal experience to go on here. > The base of the pile has a lot of tarragon and other larger dried or >partially dried stuff, including some old woody stuff. On top of that is >some aged manure. The next layer is dried flower/foliage, and he came in >with the next manure load before I could get that watered to my >satisfaction. That manure layer didn't cover, but kind of filled in around >it, and that's where I was watering when my helper questioned the wisdom of >watering. I'm not sure there's enough moisture in there, but on top of that >is a load of really wet manure. > My helper doesn't have much gardening experience, but he's been reading >my BD books for several weeks and learns quickly. > I would really appreciate any advice! (Yes, I'm also trying to listen to >the deva, but want to hear from you as well.) Do any books exist on working >with BD in an arid climate? > >Thanks! Hi Pam: In a hot and arid climate, I guess you need to water it throughly when you build the pile and then re-water it as need it when you move the pile (if you do move it). Here I always cover loosely my piles to cut down on evaporation during the dry season and nutrients running out during the rainy season, I do it with nylon but you can do it also with natural stuff such as clay, large leafs (here some people use banana leafs), etc. The nylon that I use also promotes the decay of the outer parts of the material, by keeping it moistier (due to evaporation and condensation) than the inner parts, so there is less need to move the piles. Another good thing about the plastic-nylon is that it keeps a microenvironment where all sorts of creatures live. I have lizards, toads and all sort of arachnids and insects living bellow the nylon covers, even now (dry season) that such life has gone dormant elsewhere. I have mean temperatures of 90 F year round, 80 % humidity in the rainy season (july-october), 20 % humidity in the dry season and, I am able to get finished compost in about three months using manures, grinded greens and browns and plenty of water. Hope this helps. Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 26 09:49:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA03006 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:49:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA20376; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:34:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA20185 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:33:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00A65211@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 9:36:01 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 26 Mar 99 09:35:56 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 26 Mar 99 09:35:43 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:35:39 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Organic Ag and the Many Hands of THE GOVERNMENT Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 413 >I have a big problem with this post. On the one hand, a division >of USDA is working with seed savers, and on the other hand, USDA >is a partner in the seed terminator business. Does the right hand >know what the left hand is doing? This counter-productivity has >got to be costly to taxpayers, at the very least. Margaret Hi Margaret and Everybody Else, I want to comment on the above and the below by sharing with you my experience earlier this week in a visit to the USDA in Wash. DC. I too am working on a Fund for Rural America (FRA) grant (mentioned at the bottom of the post below), and before I go on, I must tell you that the FRA will no longer exist as soon as the current monies are depleted, which is a HUGE shame. Re Margaret's comment above, the gov't would seem to be rather schitzophrenic. This means, however, that it is difficult to support all the conspiracty theories that fly around involving THE GOVERNMENT and it also means that it can be blinkenflip hard to coordinate good activities as well. I work primarily with the ERS (Economic Research Service), but since this a project on organic agriculture, it naturally involves several other branches. There are a couple of people in the FAS (Food and Agriculture Service) doing good work collecting info on organics both here and abroad, and it is the AMS (Agricultural Marketing Service) that is in charge of writing the new National Standards for organics, which has taken on new significance since the European Union is threatening with a June 30 deadline not to accept organic imports from the US that are not accredited by the gov't (that's the short version of a long and complicated story). Anyway, until this recent meeting in DC, there was virtually no communication among these different branches letting the one hand know what the other was doing, and in fact they had me researching export information for the AMS which the AMS was already WELL aware of. This has been very frustrating for me to be in the middle of this. Most people think that the US Gov't works with a unified voice, but I can tell you that is FAR from true. In fact, the FAS and the AMS are in a completely different building from the ERS and one needs to take the metro to get between the two. That certainly limits coincidental meetings at the water cooler.... Besides the theme of gov't working in a splintered and sometimes contradictory way, I want to report back to you on the state of National Standards. Many of you were involved in the HUGE outpouring of protest the last time these standards were presented (since they tried to include sewage sludge, irradiation, and GMOs in the definition of organic) and may harbor resentments toward the people that were responsible for that disaster. But I want to tell you how impressed I was with Keith Jones, the new director of AMS, and how hopeful I feel about the next standards proposal which is expected by the end of the summer. Keith comes accross as a straight talking, straight shooting Texan who certainly is rooted in fundamental economic concepts (and therefore can talk the language of the business folks) but he's also a former rancher (not just a pasty soft bureaucrat) and seems genuinely concerned with the fundamental tennents of organic agriculture as most people in the organic ag community understand it. He's also committed to drafting rules that will allow trade with the EU. Now, some of you might call me a Polyanna, but I just wanted to tell you that the meeting was very reassuring to me. But this doesn't, of course, mean that THE GOVERNMENT is committed to organic ag and will hereafter have a coordinated policy toward it. Quite the contrary! I expect that it will continue in it's usual push me-pull me fashion with one hand feeding the Monsonto's and the other hand drafting Farm Bills with sustainablility, soil conservation, wetland protection, and perhaps organic ag clauses. It's just the nature of the beast! Regards, Anita > >From John Spencer > > >>Margaret: > >> I worked at the NCGR in Corvallis for a year and Joseph Postman is a > >>friend. This collaboration (as coverd in the release below) is something > >>that I've encouraged myself, to get the government to work with private > >>individuals more. In the past, the collected material was mainly available > >>only to university and government researchers. Thanks to efforts of people > >>like Joseph Postman, the Corvallis NCGR curator Dr. Kim Hummer (a woman) and > >>others, the system now works a lot more with private people, both in making > >>material avialable to them, and in accepting plant material from private > >>collections. There are a lot of amateurs out there with wonderful > >>collections that were being lost when the individuals died. This is one way > >>to help preserve that material. > >>Believe me, whatever one branch of the government is doing with companies > >>like Monsanto, this work will help insure that there is still good plant > >>material to work with when the GE dust settles. > >>-Lon Rombough > >>Grapes, unusual fruits, writing, more, at http://www.hevanet.com/lonrom > >> > >>---------- > >>>From: margaret lauterbach > >>>To: OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU > >>>Subject: Re: FW: Growers' Group to Work With USDA Seed Banks > >>>Date: Thu, Mar 25, 1999, 10:05 AM > >>> > >> > >>>At 09:18 AM 3/25/99 -0800, you wrote: > >>>>---------- > >>>>From: "ARS News Service" > >>>>To: "ARS News List" > >>>>Subject: Growers' Group to Work With USDA Seed Banks > >>>>Date: Thu, Mar 25, 1999, 6:47 AM > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>STORY LEAD: > >>>>Growers' Group to Work With USDA Seed Banks > >>>> > >>>>----------- > >>>>ARS News Service > >>>>Agricultural Research Service, USDA > >>>>March 25, 1999 > >>>>Jim De Quattro, (301) 504-1626, jdequattro@asrr.arsusda.gov > >>>>----------- > >>>> > >>>>A budding cooperative project of researchers, organic growers and others > >>>>that begins this week could help replenish the nation's seed banks. More > >>>>important, it could create market opportunities for new public and > heirloom > >>>>crop varieties. > >>>> > >>>>The Agricultural Research Service, USDA's chief scientific agency, > >maintains > >>>>the National Plant Germplasm System. Its 27 repositories now hold about > >>>>437,000 specimens of germplasm--seed, cuttings and other tissue. Thousands > >>>>of accessions are added each year. Researchers worldwide use the germplasm > >>>>to breed crops with improved yield, nutrition, resistance to pests, > disease > >>>>and environmental stress or other traits. > >>>> > >>>>ARS is cooperating with the Farmer Cooperative Genome Project to test a > new > >>>>way for organic growers, farmer cooperatives and small seed companies to > >tap > >>>>into this storehouse of genetic diversity. FCGP members will grow fresh > >>>>supplies of germplasm, following NPGS guidelines. These ensure, for > >example, > >>>>that regenerated seed is true to type--not contaminated by pollen from > >>>>nearby crops of the same species. > >>>> > >>>>FCGP members will also develop marketable new varieties from germplasm > they > >>>>may never have known about otherwise. For example, an ARS repository in > >>>>Corvallis, Ore., has more than 400 heirloom pear varieties. In Pullman, > >>>>Wash., ARS maintains more than 200 lines of garlic. These represent > most of > >>>>the crop's genetic diversity. Only a few varieties account for nearly all > >>>>commercial production, according to horticulturist Richard Hannan. He's > >>>>based at ARS' Western Regional Plant Introduction Station in Pullman. > >>>> > >>>>On March 27-28 in Salem, Ore., Hannan, Corvallis ARS plant pathologist > >>>>Joseph Postman and other scientists are among scheduled panelists at > FCGP's > >>>>first general meeting. Other plants with FCGP potential include heirloom > >>>>varieties and wild relatives of tomato, lettuce, bean, broccoli, Egyptian > >>>>onion, radish, blue and other Native American corn, blackberry, > strawberry, > >>>>Turkish grain legumes and little-known herbs such as black cumin. > >>>> > >>>>More than 200 small family farmers, organic farmers, seed producers, > >>>>breeders and others will participate in FCGP, according to J.J. > Haapala. He > >>>>is research and education director of Oregon Tilth, a growers' group in > >>>>Salem that certifies organic growers and processors. Haapala administers a > >>>>USDA Fund for Rural America grant to the FCGP. > >>>> > >>>>---------- > >>>>Scientific contact: Richard M. Hannan, ARS Western Regional Plant > >>>>Introduction Station, Pullman, Wash., phone (509) 335-1502, fax (509) > >>>>335-6654, hannan@wsunix.wsu.edu. > >>> > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 26 13:02:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA08693 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18501; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:51:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18319 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:50:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07679 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:56:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-21-131.phx.primenet.com(206.165.21.131), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd007639; Fri Mar 26 11:56:19 1999 Message-ID: <36FBC967.FA5B89A3@primenet.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:52:39 -0700 From: Jim & Jenni Muir X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {TLC;RETAIL} (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: [cg] What's Up in Biotechnology, Genetic Engineering References: <199932321434935705@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 414 Hugh, I'd like to make some horn clay, and horn basalt. I've ordered horns from JPI. Can I bury them both now? I'd like to buy some horn basalt from you. Would you also sell some horn clay? What have been your experiences using them thus far? Jim Muir swog@primenet.com Glendale, Arizona Hugh Lovel wrote: > This is one of a 100 reasons why I've been saying that horn clay is the greatest discovery ever made in biodynamic agriculture. The second greatest discovery is #800. Be sure to bury some horn basalt horns NOW so you can make it next year. I will send you some of my supply if you want to try it this year. Let me know. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Mar 26 17:00:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14495 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA23288; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:48:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from latina.latino.net.co (latina.latino.net.co [207.16.109.165]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22872 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:45:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from 1 (acc14195.latino.web.co [206.114.24.195]) by latina.latino.net.co (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA19039 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:48:06 -0500 (GMT-0500) From: " bachmans" To: Subject: unsuscribe Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:49:50 -0500 Message-ID: <01be77d2$93872e20$c31872ce@1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE77A8.AAB12620" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 415 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE77A8.AAB12620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable UNSUSCRIBE ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE77A8.AAB12620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE77A8.AAB12620-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 27 00:18:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21673 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 00:18:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA03630; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 00:05:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from eugnpop1.eugn.uswest.net (eugnpop1.eugn.uswest.net [207.109.240.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA03297 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 00:02:26 -0500 (EST) From: jrei@uswest.net Received: (qmail 24350 invoked by alias); 27 Mar 1999 05:05:25 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-bdnow@envirolink.org@fixme Received: (qmail 24338 invoked by uid 0); 27 Mar 1999 05:05:24 -0000 Received: from dialupc96.eugn.uswest.net (HELO pop.eugn.uswest.net) (209.180.177.96) by eugnpop1.eugn.uswest.net with SMTP; 27 Mar 1999 05:05:24 -0000 Message-ID: <36FC65DE.DD8507B@pop.eugn.uswest.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:00:15 -0800 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" , "OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU" Subject: Plant patent lawsuit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 416 In today's (March 26,1999) Capital Press it was reported that a legal challenge to the fundamental premise of the biotech industry, the patentability of modified plants, is shaping up. Stemming from a lawsuit filed by Pioneer Hi-Bred against a Iowa seed merchant, U.S. District Judge Donald E. O'Brian has cleared that way for a Washington Federal Appeals Court to take up the idea that Congress never meant for major food crops to be patented. The Wall Street Journal reports that the courts action indicates that the patentability of man-made plants remains legally untested. Oral arguments could began this spring. This came as a bit of a surprised to me when I read it today. This is an opportunity for groups that are out there, that are opposed to the genetic engineering of plants, to file friend-of-the-court briefs. I do not have access to the on-line version of the Wall Street Journal so someone else will have to get the details. This court decision could have watershed ramifications of the future of plant genetic engineering. Joel@Territorial Seed Company From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 27 08:54:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA26175 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:54:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23713; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:42:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23613 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:40:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp15.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.115]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id HAA16385 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:41:07 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <003501be7857$511d11a0$734b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie M." To: "BD NOW LIST" Subject: Celtic Salt vs. RealSalt Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:40:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 417 Some time ago I discovered a wonderful salt/mineral lick for the cows, thanks to Bob Johnson, dairy expert extraordinaire, who left samples of big red salty rocks when delivering kelp to the farm. (and yes, I tasted it after he left) Seems this natural beautiful red rock comes from Utah. The cows love it, and in fact, it is also available in a table version (for those of us who prefer NOT sharing with the cows:-)). It is also reasonable in price. >From Redmond folks: "As far as comparing RealSalt to Celtic Salt: I believe Celtic Salt is a good sea salt, however the price difference between RealSalt and Celtic is significant. RealSalt has about 30 different trace minerals and comes from and ancient sea deposit that has been kept from the pollutants in the modern seas and oceans (where most sea salts are processed from). RealSalt comes in 2 sizes, one is a 9oz. shaker for $2.99 and also a 2 pound bag for $5.10, with a minimum shipping and handling charge of $6.00. Please let us know your address and we will send samples along with info." >From the label: "RealSalt comes from an underground natural mineral rock salt deposit. Millions of years ago near what is now known as the town of Redmond, Utah, there existed a supersaturated body of seawater. It congealed to form a great vein of rock salt & captured within the crystallization over thirty wholesome trace minerals. Since it is an all natural product, the analysis and color will vary. Below is a summary of analysis taken over the past several years. Some clumping will occur due to the absence of chemicals: Sodium Chloride - 98.32% Calcium - .40% Potassium - .12% Sulphur - .11% Magnesium - .10% Iron - .06% Phosphorus - .05% Iodine - .002% Manganese - .0015% Copper - .001% Zinc - .0006% plus other trace minerals Redmond Minerals, Inc., Redmond, UT 84654 1-(800) 367-7258 more at: http://www.thinkerworks.com/realsalt/Default.htm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 27 09:08:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA26271 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 09:08:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24452; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:57:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24252 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:54:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp254.cy-net.net [208.21.195.63]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA20201 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:57:11 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7825.EC6DE260@FLYLO>; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:46:28 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7825.EC6DE260@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: Organic and livestock Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:45:01 -0600 Encoding: 44 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 418 Thanks, Anita for an uplifting post on organic certification program. (Happy to see that a Texan doesn' t have his hand in the Chem Ag till.) I was receiving the bulletins as they modified and ratified the NOSB regs, but have not received anything in over a year or so. Recently they sent out a flier that they'd like to contact by e-mail to save postage and I agreed, so there may be some snags in the changeover. I've been certified Organic several years ago, (market vegetables) but decided not to pay for the licensing again until they settle all the dust on what is or what is not OG. The way I understand it, as soon as it quit being a State regulated dept and went National is where the major mess started. (I'm sure it's more detailed than that, but I'm not into details this morning!) Currently working to supply bulk milk to a cheese processor and we're planting our hay crop to assure that at least the goats get organically grown roughages if not the grain itself. The problem is the kind of hay we need is hybridized (haygrazer) and I have no way of knowing if it's been genetically altered or not. I just have to assume that the 'new and improved' versions of sudan/sorghum crosses are going to have implants. So I'm leaning toward the older original seed. Curious isn't it that the newer named varieties are the worst for developing prussic acid poisoning when stressed? (And tell me ONE hayfield in Texas that doesn't see some stress in the growth cycle?) Ahhh, I see, more money in the coffers when we pay for lab tests on plant material that's prone to poison the livestock. OH, the meeting with the processor last Saturday went well. I don't know bulk milk prices but he's offering .34 per pound for summer milk and .44 for winter. He considers Dec through March as Winter Milk, so goat folk can probably get early kids and a little more money for their efforts as well. MOST processors require a minimum of 80 gallons per week, and very few small goat dairies can produce that, this one has no bottom limit. If you can haul it, he'll buy it. he and a dairy inspector will approve the facilities before and on occasion at random to make sure the milk is being produced cleanly and safely, but otherwise, no Grade A standards apply. A bulk chiller enclosed away from the milk parlor, a cement pad for the chiller room, and food grade buckets to haul the milk in are his main requirements. (This is excellent news for those of us who can't afford the $100,000 for a Grade A dairy.) Interesting that regulations for goats must meet the same barn, milk parlor, etc, specifications as for cow dairies. This is a huge step in the right direction for those (like myself) small producers who wish to sell milk but can't see the way to build all new facilities Grade A. martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 27 12:30:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA28113 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 12:30:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08868; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 12:18:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08725 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 12:16:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp210.cy-net.net [208.21.195.19]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04483 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:19:08 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7842.1D3156E0@FLYLO>; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:08:16 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7842.1D3156E0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: Don't open List.Doc files!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:08:06 -0600 Encoding: 75 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 419 If you're not on the DataFellows weekly virus update alerts you should be! So far everything they've announced has happened. (Sorrowfully), but take a look at this Melissa virus that will probably set everyone to talking MORE than happy99 did. ********************* A new computer virus spread globally within hours of discovery Melissa virus infects Word documents, e-mails itself to other users Espoo, Finland, March 27, 1999. - DataFellows, one of the world's leading developers of anti-virus and encryption software, is warning computer users about a virulent and widespread computer virus found on Friday, March 26, 1999. This virus has spread all over the globe within just hours of initial discovery, apparently spreading faster than any other virus before. The virus, known as W97M/Melissa, spreads by e-mailing itself automatically from one user to another. The virus activates by modifying the user's documents, inserting comments from the TV series "The Simpsons". Even worse, it can send out confidential information from the computer without the user's noticing it. The virus was discovered late Friday evening European time, early morning US time. For this reason, the virus spread in the USA during Friday. Many multinational companies reported widespread infections, including Microsoft and Intel. Microsoft closed down their whole e-mail system to prevent a further spreading of the virus. The number of infected computers so far is estimated at tens of thousands, and rising quickly. "We've never seen a virus spread so rapidly," comments Mikko Hypponen, DataFellows' Manager of Anti-Virus Research. "We've seen a handful of viruses that distribute themselves automatically over e-mail, but not one of them has been as successful as Melissa in the real world." W97M/Melissa was initially distributed in an Internet discussion group called alt.sex. The virus was sent in a file called LIST.DOC, which contained passwords for X-rated websites. When users downloaded the file and opened it in Microsoft Word, a macro inside the document executed and e-mailed the LIST.DOC file to 50 people listed in the e-mail alias file of the user. The e-mail looked as follows: From: (name of infected user) Subject: Important Message From (name of infected user) To: (50 names from alias list) Here is that document you asked for ... don't show anyone else ;-) Attachment: LIST.DOC Most recipients are likely to open such a file, as it usually comes from someone they know. After sending itself out, the virus continues to infect other Word documents which the user accesses, i.e. it is not restricted to the initial LIST.DOC file. Eventually, these infected files can end up being mailed to other users as well. This can be potentially disastrous, as a user might inadvertently send out confidential data to outsiders. The virus activates if it is executed when the minutes of the hour match the day of the month - for example 18:27 on the 27th day of a month. At this time the virus will insert the following phrase into the current document which the user has open in Word: "Twenty-two points, plus triple-word-score, plus fifty points for using all my letters. Game's over. I'm outta here". This text, as well as the alias name of the virus author, "Kwyjibo", are references to the popular "Simpsons" cartoon TV series. "The virus won't spread much during this weekend. We will see the real problem on Monday morning," continues Hypponen. "When a big company gets infected, their e-mail servers are seriously slowed down and might even crash, as computers start e-mailing large document attachments without the sender realising it." W97M/Melissa works with Microsoft Word 97, Microsoft Word 2000 and Microsoft Outlook e-mail client. It can infect both Windows and Macintosh users. If the infected machine does not have Outlook or Internet access at all, the virus will continue to spread locally within the documents the user accesses. Data Fellows provides a free solution to the W97M/Melissa virus problem. Evaluation copies of the F-Secure Anti-Virus toolkit as well as an update to detect and disinfect the virus are available from the company's website at http://www.DataFellows.com NOTE: This site is for the US Data Fellows, open it and go to the 2nd web page to see the Euro version, which is where most of the virus' originate. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 27 14:50:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA29565 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:50:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19693; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:38:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.cyberhighway.net (smtp1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.33]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19347 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:35:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903271935.OAA19347@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 12917 invoked from network); 27 Mar 1999 12:38:59 -0700 Received: from ts2-04.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO ?209.161.18.155?) (209.161.18.155) by smtp2.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 27 Mar 1999 12:38:59 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 12:38:06 -0700 Subject: Re: arid climate, salt From: "Pam DeTray" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 420 Thanks for all the replies on my queries. The things we learn on this list! Maybe someday I'll be able to contribute as much as I receive. Blessings on every garden this year! ----------------------------------------------------- Pam DeTray psdetray@cyberhighway.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 27 14:50:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA29573 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:50:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19763; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:39:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.cyberhighway.net (smtp1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.33]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19638 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:38:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903271938.OAA19638@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 13339 invoked from network); 27 Mar 1999 12:41:25 -0700 Received: from ts2-04.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO ?209.161.18.155?) (209.161.18.155) by smtp2.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 27 Mar 1999 12:41:25 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 12:40:33 -0700 Subject: Re: BD compost in arid climate From: "Pam DeTray" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 421 David, do you add water when you're putting in wet manure? Do you actually water that layer, as well as the dry stuff? ----------------------------------------------------- Pam DeTray psdetray@cyberhighway.net Fingernails dirty, cuticles broken and bleeding. ---------- >From: "D & S Chamberlain" >To: "BDNOW" >Subject: Re: BD compost in arid climate >Date: Thu, Mar 25, 1999, 7:28 PM > >Pam; Keep it moist if you want compost!! Here where we live in Australia we >tend to have long dry spells and if we let the compost dry out it just sits >there and does nothing. It also is difficult to remoisten once it does dry >and as you will realise, quite often you will not have the water to put on >the heap. So keep it moist, dive your hand in regularly and feel it. Cow >manure in lumps and dry is particularly hard to remoisten. > >Keep those finger nails dirty >David From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 27 14:55:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA29680 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:55:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20224; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:44:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.cyberhighway.net (smtp1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.33]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20143 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:44:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903271944.OAA20143@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 14177 invoked from network); 27 Mar 1999 12:47:16 -0700 Received: from ts2-04.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO ?209.161.18.155?) (209.161.18.155) by smtp2.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 27 Mar 1999 12:47:16 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 12:46:23 -0700 Subject: Re: BD compost in arid climate From: "Pam DeTray" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 422 Guillermo, if you had a lower humidity, would you ever peel back the nylon and add water? Is it ever okay to water a pile after the preps are in? I gave it a good watering yesterday, but I may run a pipe down into it and try to get more water in several places. For the skin, we have a truckful of leaves, held in place by wetting them down and adding some sticks over top. Then a tarp over all of that. Our late summer temperatures can go into the 90's. ----------------------------------------------------- Pam DeTray psdetray@cyberhighway.net ---------- >From: Guillermo Romero > >I have mean temperatures of 90 F year round, 80 % humidity in the rainy >season (july-october), 20 % humidity in the dry season and, I am able to >get finished compost in about three months using manures, grinded greens >and browns and plenty of water. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 27 18:37:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA02262 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 18:37:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09843; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 18:25:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09576 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 18:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp197.cy-net.net [208.21.195.6]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05363 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:25:28 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7875.1C82E640@FLYLO>; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:13:19 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7875.1C82E640@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: some kind of nettles? Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:12:42 -0600 Encoding: 12 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 423 I have a very obnoxious weed growing around my goat barns. It has a tiny serrate - toothed leaf (like cilantro) and leaves grow opposite each other. Stem is flat hexagonal like true mints, so I'd LIKE to believe this is some kind of nettle, but the ag guy couldn't identify it. Grows about 2 ft tall or better. If you brush against it, it's wildly stinging, tho. We have bullnettle here, (not a true nettle) and this is nothing like that either. Any clues? Because of all the wonders of nettles I've been reading, I'm tempted to treat it like nettle, but would sure like to know what it is I'm dealing with first. It burns out when hot summertime comes along. Goats won't eat it. martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 27 18:37:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA02273 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 18:37:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09919; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 18:25:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09577 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 18:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp197.cy-net.net [208.21.195.6]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05347 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:25:25 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7875.1AE87020@FLYLO>; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:13:17 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7875.1AE87020@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: Who's site is Sacred Soil? Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:06:24 -0600 Encoding: 11 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 424 Who's garden / farm is Sacred Soil? http://www.sacred-soil.com/ I have the site bookmarked and was just taking a tour. The BD Preps pages are very informative. The explanation of how each preparation is made is easy to understand, but alas, no reason is given about what the preparation should be used for. Night and Greenhouse links take the viewer to those pages, but the subject lines aren't linked to anything. Am I missing something here? thanks martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 27 22:17:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA04308 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:17:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29179; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:05:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28964 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:02:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.186] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.186]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0F9A001SWAXB1W@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:58:30 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:03:54 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: BD compost in arid climate In-reply-to: <199903271944.OAA20143@envirolink.org> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id WAA28970 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 425 >Guillermo, if you had a lower humidity, would you ever peel back the nylon >and add water? Is it ever okay to water a pile after the preps are in? >I gave it a good watering yesterday, but I may run a pipe down into it and >try to get more water in several places. >For the skin, we have a truckful of leaves, held in place by wetting them >down and adding some sticks over top. Then a tarp over all of that. >Our late summer temperatures can go into the 90's. > >----------------------------------------------------- >Pam DeTray >psdetray@cyberhighway.net Hi Pam: Once I put the nylon cover down, I really do not need to water the piles again in the three months that it takes here to have finished compost. My relative humidity of 15-20 % during the dry season, it is on the dry side and the sun is very strong, if I leave the piles uncovered they would dry quickly. Let me make clear that my covers are not air tight, they are oversized about two meters (in the whole perimeter) and I just put some rocks here and there to keep the covers from being blown away. I have found that those two meters are enough to keep moisture inside and to allow enough air and "life" circulating. I do not think that the dry leaves will do the job of keeping moisture from evaporating from the piles without a waterproof tarp. I really do not know if the Nylon or the Tarp, would interphere with the astral forces. Any idea, anyone? If you want to make strict BD compost and leave it there for six months, without moving or adding anything else after the preps, Why don't you try a mud-clay cover on top of the leaves, (this method, I believe is BD compatible) I once tried it and it worked fine. I though at first it was going to be a lot of work, but after a couple of hours building and wetting the piles, I ended it up with a lot of mud in the surroundings, that I simply putted on top. It looked really nice, like a huge termite "house-nest", (What's the word ?) In Proctor's book he recommends moving the pile after six weeks and then to take any corrective measures, such as adding water. In JPI instructions, it is metioned that, although not optimal, you can poke holes to either dry out your piles or add water. It is also mentioned that a dry out pile, must be re-build and, I assume new preps should be added. In SFRA I do not recall seen such specifics such as this or the placement of the BD preps in the piles. Also, the way Lovel, Proctor and Sattler & Wistinghausen and JPI, recommends placing the preps it is not consistent between them, so I suspect, as many other BD practices, it is a matter of experience, preference, direct "seeing" and tradition,. Proctor puts the solid preparations in one of the sides of the piles in no mentioned order and the valerian juice distributed in two holes and sprinkled on top. S & W recommends putting the preps in deep holes at the top of the heap in the following order: 502, 503, 504, 505, 506 and the valerian juice is disolved in water stired for 15 minutes and sprinkled on top. ( The book does not mention anything about the orientation of the compost heap so I can not tell if the order is S-N, E-W or what). Hugh Lovel recommends poking six holes: 504 & 505 in the center, the other preps in the edges, 502 and 507 go opposite from one another, as well as 503 and 506. Hugh explains his reason to do so in "A Biodynamic Farm, but I rather he discuss this with the list. I do not want to violate any copywrite, nor do I want to miquote him. The JPI "instructions" put 505, 506, and 507 along one side of the heap, on the other side 502, 503, and 504 (in that order) and 507 is potentized and divided in two; half is placed in it's hole and the rest finely sprayed over the pile after adding the other preps. Can some of you BDers comment on these diferences, does it really matter ? My perception is that we are not dealing with "things" that can be restricted to space-time coordinates, we are dealing with suttle forces, so that intention is more important than the wheres and hows. I just do it the best I can, and believe on the goodness of the process. Kind regards. Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Mar 27 22:38:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA04480 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:38:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00789; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:26:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.cyberhighway.net (smtp1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.33]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00695 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:24:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903280324.WAA00695@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 24262 invoked from network); 27 Mar 1999 20:27:55 -0700 Received: from ts2-37.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO ?209.161.18.188?) (209.161.18.188) by smtp2.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 27 Mar 1999 20:27:55 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:27:03 -0700 Subject: Re: BD compost in arid climate From: "Pam DeTray" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 426 Guillermo, I'm not looking in my books right now, but Ferdinand runs a row of holes down the pile, then goes back and places the preps to correspond with the parts of the body, i.e. head, stomach, etc., then finishes with the valerian spray. When my son and I attended the conference at Penticton he came out of a workshop surprised, because the speaker said the order of the preps placement didn't matter. On the drive up, he had read aloud to me from Wolf Storl, who shows a diagram of the traditional placement. I asked about water after placing the preps because I wonder about the interaction of the water with the forces of the preps. Your mud skin idea sounds right to me, but I'm still a "baby" at all this, have to look everything up in books! And no way will I attempt to even turn this pile, it's humongous!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Pam DeTray psdetray@cyberhighway.net Guillermo wrote: > >Once I put the nylon cover down, I really do not need to water the piles >again in the three months that it takes here to have finished compost. My >relative humidity of 15-20 % during the dry season, it is on the dry side >and the sun is very strong, if I leave the piles uncovered they would dry quickly. snip >If you want to make strict BD compost and leave it there for six months, >without moving or adding anything else after the preps, Why don't you try a >mud-clay cover on top of the leaves, (this method, I believe is BD >compatible) I once tried it and it worked fine. I though at first it was >going to be a lot of work, but after a couple of hours building and wetting >the piles, I ended it up with a lot of mud in the surroundings, that I >simply putted on top. It looked really nice, like a huge termite >"house-nest", (What's the word ?) > >In Proctor's book he recommends moving the pile after six weeks and then to >take any corrective measures, such as adding water. > >In JPI instructions, it is metioned that, although not optimal, you can >poke holes to either dry out your piles or add water. It is also mentioned >that a dry out pile, must be re-build and, I assume new preps should be added. > >In SFRA I do not recall seen such specifics such as this or the placement >of the BD preps in the piles. Also, the way Lovel, Proctor and Sattler & >Wistinghausen and JPI, recommends placing the preps it is not consistent >between them, so I suspect, as many other BD practices, it is a matter of >experience, preference, direct "seeing" and tradition,. > >Proctor puts the solid preparations in one of the sides of the piles in no >mentioned order and the valerian juice distributed in two holes and >sprinkled on top. > >S & W recommends putting the preps in deep holes at the top of the heap in >the following order: 502, 503, 504, 505, 506 and the valerian juice is >disolved in water stired for 15 minutes and sprinkled on top. ( The book >does not mention anything about the orientation of the compost heap so I >can not tell if the order is S-N, E-W or what). > >Hugh Lovel recommends poking six holes: 504 & 505 in the center, the other >preps in the edges, 502 and 507 go opposite from one another, as well as >503 and 506. > >Hugh explains his reason to do so in "A Biodynamic Farm, but I rather he >discuss this with the list. I do not want to violate any copywrite, nor do >I want to miquote him. > > >The JPI "instructions" put 505, 506, and 507 along one side of the heap, on >the other side 502, 503, and 504 (in that order) and 507 is potentized and >divided in two; half is placed in it's hole and the rest finely sprayed >over the pile after adding the other preps. > >Can some of you BDers comment on these diferences, does it really matter ? > >My perception is that we are not dealing with "things" that can be >restricted to space-time coordinates, we are dealing with suttle forces, >so that intention is more important than the wheres and hows. I just do it >the best I can, and believe on the goodness of the process. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 28 00:19:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA06665 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 00:19:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA07708; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 00:07:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07532 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 00:05:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from think-pad-701c (pm3bky1-66-104.intrepid.net [206.102.66.104]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA16462 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 00:08:56 -0500 Message-ID: <36FDB9CB.4BB7@intrepid.net> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 00:10:35 -0500 From: Bobbie Rohn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Morgan Awards X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: OFF : August 1999]] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 427 Return-Path: Received: from [206.102.66.104] (pm3bky1-66-104.intrepid.net [206.102.66.104]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA32182 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:32:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199903251232.HAA32182@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: Re: [Fwd: OFF : August 1999] Date: Thu, 25 Mar 99 07:36:17 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: "Bobbie Rohn" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Bobbie Here's a reply you can post. Pluto is not "involved" in the Grand Fixed Cross only in the sense that it is not in a fixed sign. It is involved in other ways. It is only 8 dgrees from the fixed sign of Scorpio. It is stationing the day the Fixed Cross becomes exact by the Moon moving into a fixed sign (8/18). It is stationing at 8 degrees Sagittarius which is the exact rising sign of the most commonly used Declaration of Independence chart for the United States. This degree is also in the midst of what noted astrologer/forecaster Mark Lerner has designated the nuclear zone because of its predominance in all major nuclear activities since the early 1940s. With the eclipse path ending at the India/Pakistan border almost exactly on the anniversary of their "divorce," I would not be so quick to discount some sort of nuclear activity. Regarding the Cassemi -- having cast a chart for the lift-off, there are close aspects forward to 8/18/99 and its passage by earth that are less than reassuring. Whatever the actual event(s), I feel confident in predicting that Pluto stationing will be its usual explosive self. posted by Jeanne Mozier From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 28 00:47:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA06885 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 00:47:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA09002; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 00:34:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ecpport2.midcoast.com.au (ecpport2.ecopost.com.au [203.28.64.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA08829 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 00:30:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (kmidc65-88.ecopost.com.au [203.28.65.88]) by ecpport2.midcoast.com.au (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA23184 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 15:30:27 +1000 Message-ID: <002201be78e4$4f7fba40$58411ccb@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "D & S Chamberlain" To: Subject: Re: BD compost in arid climate Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 16:28:13 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 428 Pam; I usually don't add water, wait a few days and feel the heap. if it is dry, then it is a case of no moisture no compost. This applys with or without preps, it is my personal belief that once preps are inserted, their forces are active within the heap and they won't wash out, so we come back to the start, no moisture, no compost. I have tried covering the heap with old woollen carpet, it stayed moister than the surrounding heap but packed down and was poor compost. There appears to be no end of suggested order of insertion of preps in heaps, I believe that we are dealing with forces or energies that have no regard to their physical position, I just position them evenly in the heap and stir and pour about half of the 507 in a hole and splash the rest over the heap. Don't let the rituals confuse you, it is after all a very simple process. Observation will answer most of your questions. David -----Original Message----- From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, 28 March, 1999 5:42 AM Subject: Re: BD compost in arid climate >David, do you add water when you're putting in wet manure? Do you actually >water that layer, as well as the dry stuff? > >----------------------------------------------------- >Pam DeTray >psdetray@cyberhighway.net >Fingernails dirty, cuticles broken and bleeding. > >---------- >>From: "D & S Chamberlain" >>To: "BDNOW" >>Subject: Re: BD compost in arid climate >>Date: Thu, Mar 25, 1999, 7:28 PM >> > >>Pam; Keep it moist if you want compost!! Here where we live in Australia we >>tend to have long dry spells and if we let the compost dry out it just sits >>there and does nothing. It also is difficult to remoisten once it does dry >>and as you will realise, quite often you will not have the water to put on >>the heap. So keep it moist, dive your hand in regularly and feel it. Cow >>manure in lumps and dry is particularly hard to remoisten. >> >>Keep those finger nails dirty >>David > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 28 08:41:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA10087 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 08:41:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21045; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 08:27:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20938 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 08:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.11]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 08:31:08 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 08:28:51 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: March 27, 1999 - April 02, 1999 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 429 Calendar of the Soul [March 27, 1999 - April 02, 1999] Fifty-first Week (March 23-29) Into our inner being The riches of the senses pour. The Cosmic Spirit finds itself Reflected in the human eye, Which ever must renew its strength From out that spirit source. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Ins Innre des Menschenwesens Ergiesst der Sinne Reichtum sich, Es findet sich der Weltengeist Im Spiegelbild des Menschenauges, Das seine Kraft aus ihm Sich neu erschaffen muss. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+51 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 28 12:59:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13112 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:59:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07444; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:46:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07316 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:45:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp264.cy-net.net [208.21.195.73]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24431 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 11:48:22 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE790E.8E19A160@FLYLO>; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 11:31:43 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE790E.8E19A160@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: OFF: a twist in the GE newsworld Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 10:54:27 -0600 Encoding: 65 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 430 One good aspect of GE seeds has come to the fore recently. It seems that people who are taking the time to educate themselves are choosing not to use products made with genetically altered foods.: This in on one of my husband's alt/energy usegroups: --- {EVangel} RW - The Express (DEXM) News Baker uses his loaf to cash in on organic bread 03/24/99 Copyright (c) 1999 The Express; Source: World Reporter (tm) WHEN Keith Murray started his organic bakery with one other worker, he envisaged a fairly modest market. In just three months, however, his business has grown 100-fold because of public concern about genetically modified food. Keith, 36, had expected to sell 1,000 loaves a week, with a turnover of GBP30,000 in a good year. Now he is hiring 27 staff to meet weekly targets of 110,000 loaves, producing GBP2,250,000. Experts from two of Britain's biggest supermarket chains beat a path to his door at a small environmental charity in a depressed part of Northumberland. This week Keith begins supplying 10 Asda supermarkets, which will increase by 50 a week until his loaves are stacked on the shelves of 227 stores. He has also won a contract to deliver organic bread to each of Iceland's 760 outlets by the end of April. Keith thinks critics can eat their words. "There were people who believed that organic food did not have a mass market," he said. "Well, we've proved them wrong." The Earthbalance Organic Bakery takes its name from the charity operating at Bomersund, near Bedlington, using its own wind, solar and water power. Flour is milled from organic wheat grown on the Earthbalance farm, which also supplies grain to an organic brewery. There is a trout farm, cafe and garden centre, but the bakery is by far the most commercially successful venture. Keith, who worked for a bakery in East Lothian before arriving last December, said: "Everything in our bread is 100 per cent organic. "These supermarkets are responding to their customers' demands for a certain quality of product, and we provide it. It also gives me a buzz that we are creating so much employment in an area where jobs are thin on the ground. I've been unemployed so I know what it's like. I am receiving hundreds of job applications." The ovens are fired with willow, which gives the light-textured bread a thin but hard crust with a slightly smoky flavour. Wayne Rowlett, of Asda's bakery division, said the bread would go on sale today at 75p for an 800g white loaf. "This Earthbalance project is a good thing for us to be involved with as a company," he said. "When they started they expected the bakery to be on the scale of their box produce operation, which sells vegetables directly to about 300 homes. We're delighted to have helped make such a difference." An Iceland spokeswoman said: "We are doing this to give our customers a wider range of choice and to meet the growing demand for organic products. " Anna White, of Earthbalance, said: "Making organic bread benefits the environment because you are not using pesticides on the land, so hopefully we'll be seeing more wildlife if a lot more people eat organic products." ... http://www.dialog.com/info/content/worldreporter/ customer@dialog.com World Reporter (tm) (c)1999 The Dialog Corporation, 343 Sansome Street, Suite 825, SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94104 415-986-5098 --- ____ {Statements may not be my Employer's} __/o|__\~ EVangel: messenger bringing good news =)---'@ -----@' 'Electric cruis'n the Santa Clara Valley' 132V S-10 Blazer http://members.aol.com/brucedp/ BruceDP@iname.com Electric Vehicle List Editor http://crest.org/ev-list-archive/ EAA San Jose EVents Officer http://members.aol.com/sjeaa/ Renewable Energy News contributing Editor EV & AE List sysop % Use Renewable Energy to charge your EV % From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 28 13:35:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA13832 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:35:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10638; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:22:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10387 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:20:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d152.infoserve.net [199.175.157.152]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA14769 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 10:26:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002401be7948$28e2a1e0$989dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: a twist in the GE newsworld Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 10:23:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 431 Yeah, it is polarizing the population into the "don't care if it is GE" and "anti-GE" product groups. It has also made many people aware who would not otherwise of alternatives to GE and conventionally grown food by bringing it to their consciousness. There has been some good and we have to keep slogging by choosing the right products. The Big Weapon the consumers have is having a choice still and fighting back by not buying those GE products if the gov't won't legislate them out of existence. M. -----Original Message----- From: Martha Wells To: 'Biodynamic Now' Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 9:52 AM Subject: OFF: a twist in the GE newsworld >One good aspect of GE seeds has come to the fore recently. It seems that >people who are taking the time to educate themselves are choosing not to >use products made with genetically altered foods.: >This in on one of my husband's alt/energy usegroups: > >--- {EVangel} >RW - The Express (DEXM) News Baker uses his loaf to cash in on organic >bread 03/24/99 Copyright (c) 1999 The Express; Source: World Reporter (tm) >WHEN Keith Murray started his organic bakery with one other worker, he >envisaged a fairly modest market. In just three months, however, his >business has grown 100-fold because of public concern about genetically >modified food. >Keith, 36, had expected to sell 1,000 loaves a week, with a turnover of >GBP30,000 in a good year. Now he is hiring 27 staff to meet weekly targets >of 110,000 loaves, producing GBP2,250,000. Experts from two of Britain's >biggest supermarket chains beat a path to his door at a small environmental >charity in a depressed part of Northumberland. >This week Keith begins supplying 10 Asda supermarkets, which will increase >by 50 a week until his loaves are stacked on the shelves of 227 stores. He >has also won a contract to deliver organic bread to each of Iceland's 760 >outlets by the end of April. >Keith thinks critics can eat their words. "There were people who believed >that organic food did not have a mass market," he said. "Well, we've >proved them wrong." >The Earthbalance Organic Bakery takes its name from the charity operating >at Bomersund, near Bedlington, using its own wind, solar and water power. >Flour is milled from organic wheat grown on the Earthbalance farm, which >also supplies grain to an organic brewery. There is a trout farm, cafe and >garden centre, but the bakery is by far the most commercially successful >venture. >Keith, who worked for a bakery in East Lothian before arriving last >December, said: "Everything in our bread is 100 per cent organic. "These >supermarkets are responding to their customers' demands for a certain >quality of product, and we provide it. It also gives me a buzz that we are >creating so much employment in an area where jobs are thin on the ground. >I've been unemployed so I know what it's like. I am receiving hundreds of >job applications." >The ovens are fired with willow, which gives the light-textured bread a >thin but hard crust with a slightly smoky flavour. Wayne Rowlett, of Asda's >bakery division, said the bread would go on sale today at 75p for an 800g >white loaf. "This Earthbalance project is a good thing for us to be >involved with as a company," he said. "When they started they expected the >bakery to be on the scale of their box produce operation, which sells >vegetables directly to about 300 homes. >We're delighted to have helped make such a difference." An Iceland >spokeswoman said: "We are doing this to give our customers a wider range of >choice and to meet the growing demand for organic products. " Anna White, >of Earthbalance, said: "Making organic bread benefits the environment >because you are not using pesticides on the land, so hopefully we'll be >seeing more wildlife if a lot more people eat organic products." > ... >http://www.dialog.com/info/content/worldreporter/ customer@dialog.com >World Reporter (tm) (c)1999 The Dialog Corporation, 343 Sansome Street, >Suite 825, SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94104 415-986-5098 > --- > ____ {Statements may not be my Employer's} > __/o|__\~ EVangel: messenger bringing good news >=)---'@ -----@' 'Electric cruis'n the Santa Clara Valley' >132V S-10 Blazer http://members.aol.com/brucedp/ BruceDP@iname.com >Electric Vehicle List Editor http://crest.org/ev-list-archive/ >EAA San Jose EVents Officer http://members.aol.com/sjeaa/ >Renewable Energy News contributing Editor EV & AE List sysop >% Use Renewable Energy to charge your EV % > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 28 14:09:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA14095 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:09:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13751; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:56:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13512 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:53:30 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA24377; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:50:16 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:50:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md17-56.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.184) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma024348; Sun Mar 28 12:49:54 1999 To: spiney@erols.com To: ronitodd@hotmail.com To: rikonigsberg@sai2000.com To: r.simpson@erols.com To: Philyour@aol.com To: mkweskin@farmland.org To: M1BOBCAT@aol.com To: LisaLevinson@earthlink.net To: jmarino@evanseast.com To: jkliwinski@aol.com To: jasonab@mediaone.net To: jackie_foley@yahoo.com To: GillerJ@nabisco.com To: email2fm@aol.com To: dmryan@mailexcite.com To: dgregory@eden.rutgers.edu To: dan_verin@hotmail.com To: Compostgal@aol.com To: community_garden@mallorn.com To: BresslerZ@panasonic.com To: bhappy14@juno.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <199932813514315705@ix.netcom.com> Subject: GM potatoes shrink vital organs in rats X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 432 So, you like to eat potato chips? french fries?... Your fate it on your plate, my friends. The choice is yours. This article appeared in "Organic Farms, Folks and Foods," March/April 1999, a publication of Northeast Organic Farming Association's New York chapter (with U.K. magazine "Guardian" 2/12/99 as a source). "Decreased organ size and Lower Immune Function Found in Rats Fed Genetically Modified (GM) Potatoes - U.K. Researcher Dismissed in Apparent Cover-Up" Recently, twenty-two prominent scientists signed a public statement in support of suspended food scientist Dr. Arpad Pusztai, who lost his job last year for warning the Britis public of possible risks associated with bio-technology companies' introduction of genetically modified food that had not been tested with long-term feeding trials. Pusztai, a senior research scientist at the Rowett Research Institute in Scotland, was awarded a 1.6 million dollar grant in 1995 to study the effects of GM crops on animal nutrition and the environment. The preliminary results showed unexpected, worrisome changes in the size and weight of rats' bodily organs. Pusztai's team also found that liver and heart sizes were decreasing, and worse still, the rats' brains were getting smaller. There were also indication of a decrease in immune system function. Based on these results, Pusztai requested additional public funding for longer-term studies, and was denied. He then appeared on television, telling viewers that he would not eat GM food, and that people should not be used as unwitting guinea pigs. Two days later he was suspended from the Rowett Institute, forced to retire, and denied access to his research data. The Institute's subsequent audit of the research concluded there was no link between GM potatoes and health risks. The treatment of Dr. Pusztai and the virtual disbanding of his research team lead an international group of 20 scientists to go public, concerned with the attack on scientific freedom. The scientists from 13 countries state that their independent examination of all the published data shows that Dr. Pusztai was right to be concerned and should never have been attacked or suspended. As Dr. Vyvyan Howard, fetal and infant toxico-pathologist from the University of Liver pool said, "An objective review of the data from these experiments leads to the conclusion that the consumption of GNA-GM potatoes in rats has led to significant differences in organ weight and lymphocyte responsiveness. Further work should be undertaken to elucidate the meaning of these findings." Dr. Howard has called for a moratorium on GM foods. For more information, contact Richard Wolfson, Ph.D., Consumer Right to Know Campaign for Mandatory Labeling and Long-term Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, 500 Wilbrod St., Ottawa, ON, Canada, K1N 6N2, tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 email: rwolfson@concentric.net Their web site, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic/geindex.html contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous genetic engineering news items. Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to and from a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? Food is power... are you in control of yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 28 14:14:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA14144 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:14:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14372; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:02:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14205 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:00:50 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA23289; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:03:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:03:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md17-56.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.184) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma023259; Sun Mar 28 13:02:56 1999 To: flylo@txcyber.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <19993281445019961@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: some kind of nettles? X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 433 On 03/27/99 17:12:42 you wrote: > >I have a very obnoxious weed growing around my goat barns. It has a tiny >serrate - toothed leaf (like cilantro) and leaves grow opposite each other. >Stem is flat hexagonal like true mints, so I'd LIKE to believe this is some >kind of nettle, but the ag guy couldn't identify it. Grows about 2 ft tall >or better. If you brush against it, it's wildly stinging, tho. >We have bullnettle here, (not a true nettle) and this is nothing like that >either. >Any clues? Because of all the wonders of nettles I've been reading, I'm >tempted to treat it like nettle, but would sure like to know what it is I'm >dealing with first. It burns out when hot summertime comes along. Goats >won't eat it. >martha > > > If an ag guy can't ID it, it sounds exotic. If goats won't eat it, it sounds freaky,... like nettle crossed with random GMO pollen floating about! Roundup Ready Stinging nettles, new from Monsinto in honor of BD farmers around the world! It's a new form of nettles, from which you make a prep to spray on your neighbor's BD farm to kill it, thereby eliminating competition. "Farms of Tomorrow" doesn't include this aspect of local economy. Monsinto's now working on a corn to feed to your neighbor's cows so they excrete municipal sludge instead of manure. And we thought they were the bad guys. Just goes to show, don't judge a corporation by its genes! Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to and from a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? Food is power... are you in control of yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 28 14:23:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA14222 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:23:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15342; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:11:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15169 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:09:47 -0500 (EST) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA17712; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:12:18 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:12:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md17-56.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.184) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma017676; Sun Mar 28 13:12:10 1999 To: agraf@agecon.uga.edu To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <19993281414212995@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Organic Ag and the Many Hands of THE GOVERNMENT X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 434 See the article in this year's Stella Natura, saying we must not codify culture (agric or otherwise). Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to and from a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? Food is power... are you in control of yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Mar 28 18:26:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA18533 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 18:25:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09094; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 18:13:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08955 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 18:12:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (tor-pm-1-17.netrover.com [205.209.27.17]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA07450 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 18:15:19 -0500 (EST) From: "manfred palmer" To: "bdnow" Subject: Leaf Dates Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 18:16:05 -0500 Message-ID: <01be7970$f4e06fc0$LocalHost@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BE7947.0C0A67C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 435 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BE7947.0C0A67C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can anyone on the BD list comment on the distinction between Hugh J. = Courtney's "recommended dates" for leaf emphasis on Mar. 26,27-- = compared to the asterisked dates of Mar. 29 & 31 in the Stella Natura = Calendar...? Unless it's a misprint, this example of published variance = is a perennial source of confusion for many astrological neophytes in BD = pursuits - not to mention casual observers. I don't have an adequate answer when someone asks : if the cosmic = influences are so significant in their relatively abrupt time = segments/cycles, then how can there be [an apparent] difference as = suggested through the foregoing information?[ notwithstanding the = equally perennial, and my favorite,----" its primarily a matter of = Intent".] Please understand that I mean no disrespect for the great work = that is, and has been, done. ....Just seeking clarification..... and = wondering about transparent collaboration possibilities.... continuing = to share insights.....[hope i haven't misread something] ...thanks, .....manfred palmer ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BE7947.0C0A67C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can anyone on the BD list comment on the = distinction=20 between Hugh J. Courtney's "recommended dates" for leaf = emphasis on=20 Mar. 26,27-- compared to the asterisked dates of Mar. 29 & 31 in the = Stella=20 Natura Calendar...?  Unless it's a misprint, this example of = published=20 variance is a perennial source of confusion for many astrological = neophytes in=20 BD pursuits - not to mention casual observers.
 I don't have an adequate answer when = someone asks=20 : if the cosmic influences are so significant in their relatively abrupt = time=20 segments/cycles, then how can there be [an apparent] difference as = suggested=20 through the foregoing information?[ notwithstanding the equally = perennial, and=20 my favorite,----" its primarily a matter of Intent".] Please=20 understand that I mean no disrespect for the great work that is, and has = been,=20 done. ....Just seeking clarification.....  and wondering about = transparent=20 collaboration possibilities.... continuing to share insights.....[hope i = haven't=20 misread something]
 ...thanks, =20 .....manfred palmer
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BE7947.0C0A67C0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 29 00:25:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA23193 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 00:25:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA14796; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 00:10:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mw1.texas.net (mw1.texas.net [206.127.30.11]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA14529 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 00:08:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from dldavis.texas.net (tcnet24-040.austin.texas.net [209.99.97.166]) by mw1.texas.net (2.4/2.4) with SMTP id XAA12560 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:11:04 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <004001be79a1$f7539c60$a66163d1@dldavis.texas.net> From: "The Davis Family" To: Subject: Re: some kind of nettles? Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:06:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 436 Martha could that plant be nose-nettle? I live in Texas and there is a small plant that when it rubs your bare ankle or your bare arms when weeding it causes the skin to itch for 2-3 minutes and then goes away. I'll try to find out more for you. Dan Davis -----Original Message----- From: Martha Wells To: 'Biodynamic Now' Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 5:30 PM Subject: some kind of nettles? >I have a very obnoxious weed growing around my goat barns. It has a tiny >serrate - toothed leaf (like cilantro) and leaves grow opposite each other. >Stem is flat hexagonal like true mints, so I'd LIKE to believe this is some >kind of nettle, but the ag guy couldn't identify it. Grows about 2 ft tall >or better. If you brush against it, it's wildly stinging, tho. >We have bullnettle here, (not a true nettle) and this is nothing like that >either. >Any clues? Because of all the wonders of nettles I've been reading, I'm >tempted to treat it like nettle, but would sure like to know what it is I'm >dealing with first. It burns out when hot summertime comes along. Goats >won't eat it. >martha > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 29 05:21:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA25754 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 05:21:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA02231; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 05:08:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from edtnps05.telusplanet.net (edtnps05.telusplanet.net [198.161.157.105]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA02085 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 05:05:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from edtntnt1-port-64.agt.net ([161.184.192.64]:1100 "HELO griebel-vine") by edtnps05.telusplanet.net with SMTP id <522362-4792>; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 03:08:36 -0700 Message-ID: <001601be79cb$a2467100$40c0b8a1@griebel-vine> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Katherine R. Griebel" To: "BDNOW" Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE BDNOW Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 03:05:10 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 437 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 29 06:12:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA26419 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 06:12:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA04354; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 05:59:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA04323 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 05:58:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from bio (kmidc67-93.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.93]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA02798 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:01:57 +1000 Message-ID: <010701be79d3$7438ea60$5d431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Leaf Dates Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:28:15 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00DB_01BE7A22.AC5E71E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 438 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00DB_01BE7A22.AC5E71E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Manfred, On the Australian AstroCalendar, the 26 and 27th are leaf days, as the = moon is in cancer (water sign) On the 29th and 31st, even though the = Moon is in Leo (fruit/fire sign) and on 31st, Moon in Virgo, ( = root/earth sign) it also happens to be a trine in water, ie. three = planets, Pluto, Mercury and Jupiter are all in water signs, so this = (according to Maria Thuns work ) overrides to single moon sign. Some Planting calendars follow Thuns work throughout, and others use = some of it, as I suspect Courtenay is doing. I suggest you read, "Land = and the Constellations" by Maria Thun, so that you have a better idea of = what they are trying to do. Not everyone agrees with Thuns work, so that = is why you will get differences in calendars. Best wishes, Cheryl Kemp Education & Advisory Coordinator Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322=20 -----Original Message----- From: manfred palmer To: bdnow Date: Monday, 29 March 1999 9:17 am Subject: Leaf Dates =20 =20 Can anyone on the BD list comment on the distinction between Hugh J. = Courtney's "recommended dates" for leaf emphasis on Mar. 26,27-- = compared to the asterisked dates of Mar. 29 & 31 in the Stella Natura = Calendar...? Unless it's a misprint, this example of published variance = is a perennial source of confusion for many astrological neophytes in BD = pursuits - not to mention casual observers. I don't have an adequate answer when someone asks : if the cosmic = influences are so significant in their relatively abrupt time = segments/cycles, then how can there be [an apparent] difference as = suggested through the foregoing information?[ notwithstanding the = equally perennial, and my favorite,----" its primarily a matter of = Intent".] Please understand that I mean no disrespect for the great work = that is, and has been, done. ....Just seeking clarification..... and = wondering about transparent collaboration possibilities.... continuing = to share insights.....[hope i haven't misread something] ...thanks, .....manfred palmer ------=_NextPart_000_00DB_01BE7A22.AC5E71E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Manfred,
On the = Australian=20 AstroCalendar, the 26 and 27th are leaf days, as the moon is in cancer = (water=20 sign) On the 29th and 31st, even though the Moon is in Leo (fruit/fire = sign) and=20 on 31st, Moon in Virgo, ( root/earth sign) it also happens to be a trine = in=20 water, ie. three planets, Pluto, Mercury  and Jupiter are all in = water=20 signs,  so this (according to Maria Thuns work ) overrides to = single moon=20 sign.
Some Planting calendars follow Thuns work = throughout, and=20 others use some of it, as I suspect Courtenay is doing.  I suggest = you=20 read, "Land and the Constellations" by Maria Thun, so that you = have a=20 better idea of what they are trying to do. Not everyone agrees with = Thuns work,=20 so that is why you will get differences in calendars.
Best wishes,
Cheryl = Kemp
Education=20 & Advisory Coordinator
Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening = Assoc.
of=20 Australia Inc.
P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office)
627 Tyringham = Rd,=20 Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home)
Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322=20
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 manfred palmer <villager@netrover.com>
To:=20 bdnow <bdnow@envirolink.org>
D= ate:=20 Monday, 29 March 1999 9:17 am
Subject: Leaf=20 Dates

Can anyone on the BD list comment on the=20 distinction between Hugh J. Courtney's "recommended dates" = for=20 leaf emphasis on Mar. 26,27-- compared to the asterisked dates of = Mar. 29=20 & 31 in the Stella Natura Calendar...?  Unless it's a = misprint,=20 this example of published variance is a perennial source of = confusion for=20 many astrological neophytes in BD pursuits - not to mention casual=20 observers.
 I don't have an adequate answer = when someone=20 asks : if the cosmic influences are so significant in their = relatively=20 abrupt time segments/cycles, then how can there be [an apparent] = difference=20 as suggested through the foregoing information?[ notwithstanding the = equally=20 perennial, and my favorite,----" its primarily a matter of=20 Intent".] Please understand that I mean no disrespect for the = great=20 work that is, and has been, done. ....Just seeking = clarification..... =20 and wondering about transparent collaboration possibilities.... = continuing=20 to share insights.....[hope i haven't misread = something]
 ...thanks, =20 .....manfred palmer
------=_NextPart_000_00DB_01BE7A22.AC5E71E0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 29 07:34:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA27114 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:34:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA09127; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:21:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA08905 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:19:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp320.cy-net.net [208.21.195.129]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA19324 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 06:22:14 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE79AB.21D49120@FLYLO>; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 06:12:32 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE79AB.21D49120@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: some kind of nettles? Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 06:12:25 -0600 Encoding: 50 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 439 No, this stuff definitely burns for hours. A vinegar rub will dilute the burning, but it lasts at least 6 - 12 hours. And the stuff is everywhere! I'm pretty sure it came in with some small bird seed, and the wild birds have spread the seed all around the corrals now. We used to raise parakeets and finches and I was buying a seed blend from Empire in Waco. This was mostly millet with some tiny (poppy seed like) black seeds in it, and I think this was what it was. but check anyhow. As soon as we get some really hot weather, it dries out and dies out. Hasn't seeded out yet and I'd like to try to get a stop on it before it does. Mowing would help but it's in nooks and crannies that don't get mowed. martha -----Original Message----- From: The Davis Family [SMTP:dldavis@texas.net] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 1999 11:07 PM To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: some kind of nettles? Martha could that plant be nose-nettle? I live in Texas and there is a small plant that when it rubs your bare ankle or your bare arms when weeding it causes the skin to itch for 2-3 minutes and then goes away. I'll try to find out more for you. Dan Davis -----Original Message----- From: Martha Wells To: 'Biodynamic Now' Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 5:30 PM Subject: some kind of nettles? >I have a very obnoxious weed growing around my goat barns. It has a tiny >serrate - toothed leaf (like cilantro) and leaves grow opposite each other. >Stem is flat hexagonal like true mints, so I'd LIKE to believe this is some >kind of nettle, but the ag guy couldn't identify it. Grows about 2 ft tall >or better. If you brush against it, it's wildly stinging, tho. >We have bullnettle here, (not a true nettle) and this is nothing like that >either. >Any clues? Because of all the wonders of nettles I've been reading, I'm >tempted to treat it like nettle, but would sure like to know what it is I'm >dealing with first. It burns out when hot summertime comes along. Goats >won't eat it. >martha > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 29 12:30:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03366 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:30:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16408; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:18:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15904 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (modem39.digisys.net [205.138.110.88]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA12614; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:18:35 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FFB693.BEA78CD9@digisys.net> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:21:23 -0700 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" CC: "herb@MyList.net" , "HERBWORLD@aol.com" , Sally Subject: [Fwd: Urgent Action Needed - Biased panel to set US biotech policy, laws] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------55455D258E71B3E736E094E5" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 440 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------55455D258E71B3E736E094E5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI. --------------55455D258E71B3E736E094E5 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from 1ststar.1ststar.com (IDENT:mail@1ststar.1ststar.com [209.150.128.54]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA10482 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:14:38 -0700 (MST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by 1ststar.1ststar.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA14392 for whiteowl@digisys.net; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:15:17 -0600 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by 1ststar.1ststar.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA14378 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:15:11 -0600 Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA07443 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:06:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([216.171.28.121]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA07143 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:05:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [216.171.28.125] ([216.171.28.125] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with ESMTP id S.0000107674 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:02:18 +0000 To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu From: Judy_Kew@greenbuilder.com (Judy Kew) Reply-To: Judy_Kew@greenbuilder.com (Judy Kew) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:02:39 GMT Subject: Urgent Action Needed - Biased panel to set US biotech policy, laws Message-ID: <1658056702.50141038@greenbuilder.com> Organization: Sustainable Sources X-Gateway: FirstClass Gateway for SMTP/NNTP (Mac68K) version 1.02 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk This is an alert that I hope you will help with. We only have 2 weeks to make a loud noise about this bogus review panel. It is felt that if we do not and the panel succeeds in their goal of a major PR coup, in a few months it will be much harder for the US public to hear us. We have them running already, let's keep it up. Supporting documents are included or will follow. Thank you for any help you can give. Judy ------- Urgent Action Needed - Biased panel to set US biotech policy, laws The National Academy of Sciences will begin a "fast track" study on April 8 in order to give GE foods a rubber stamp of approval - by investigating the benefits and potential risks of genetically engineered crops with an eye toward recommending changes in government regulations. (see article below) The NAS study is an attempt to minimize the effect on the US public of the European furor over GE food. The NAS is a highly respected body, and supposedly "independent," so it has the power to pull off a major biotech PR coup. The NAS is largely responsible for the US policy on biotech. Since the 70's it has promoted GE to Congress, to the Carter, Reagan, Bush, and Clinton Administrations, to Wall Street investors, federal agencies, etc. Also, the NAS is under the thumb of Monsanto, et al, and under pressure to show the biotech flag. Plus it wants to protect its reputation. The study is expected to be narrow in scope, and will conclude that there are some problems which can be handled, and that the benefits far outweigh the risks. As Joe Cummins says, it "will show the bias of the committee and serve as a public relations scheme to revive the worldwide image of biotechnology." Please note: 1. The panel is stacked in favor of the biotech companies (you can see for yourself in a separate post (with biotech interest emboldened or explained) or by going to this URL http://www4.nas.edu/webcr.nsf/CommitteeDisplay/BANR-O-99-02-A?OpenDocument 2. Usually NAS studies take 18 months but this study will take 1/3 that time - 6 months. 3. The review is unannounced. Monsanto was upset when they heard that the author of the article knew about it. LET THE NAS KNOW WE ARE WATCHING AND THAT THEY CAN'T DO A WASH JOB. What you can do: 1) We have until April 8 to flood the NAS with comments on the NAS Committee membership - demand they reveal any biotech conflicts of interest. A response form is set up on the NAS website (sample letter below): http://www4.nas.edu/webcr.nsf/CommitteeDisplay/BANR-O-99-02-A?OpenDocument Project ID is BANR-O-99-02-A. Here you can e-mail the NAS directly, access the committee membership, and the project scope. 2) Send the article below and this information to as many environmental organizations, websites, listserves, etc., as possible so their members can send their responses to the NAS as soon as possible. 3) Contact your Congressperson asking them to inquire whether the panel members are really objective. 4) Contact media telling them to follow up on the story. Send them the article with a cover letter (2 samples below). Sample letter for website: Dear NAS, I am concerned that the committee that is reviewing the health, safety, and environmental impact of genetically engineered agricultural products is made up primarily of scientists that derive their livelihood from genetic engineering, work for organizations who rely on grants from bio-engineering companies, or are official regulators of the technology (and therefore cannot easily take a public stand against it). It would almost appear that the role of this committee is to get an NAS rubber stamp to proceed, while many scientists in the US, Europe and Asia are questioning the long-term environmental impact of this technology. - Ornithologists and entymologists are concerned about the destruction of beneficial insects (through Bt ingestion) and mass death of birds that prey on these (and pest) insects. - Ecologists are concerned about horizontal gene transfer to similar species of plants (through cross-pollination), recombination of plant viruses used as the DNA transfer mechanism, and genetic pollution of the biosphere. - Agronomists are concerned about the massive transformation of the biodiversity of food plant species to monocultures. - Economists are concerned about the transformation of entire rural economies from subsistence horticulture to cash commodity agriculture. - Medical doctors are concerned that the enzymes and proteins expressed by the inserted or modified genes may have adverse health effects, such as the increase in allergy to RRS soybeans found in Europe. Yet none of the many scientifically credentialed critics of agricultural genetic engineering have been included on the committee destined to provide a review of this technology in the name of the National Academy of Sciences. Without such members on the committee, and an unrestricted open debate about the full range of issues, any report that the committee prepares will, by its very nature, be discredited before it is published. I strongly urge you to reconsider the membership of the committee to include serious critics of the technology, so as to make them at least 50% of the membership of the committee. Sincerely, -------- Sample letter - media 1: Dear Editor, On April 8, 1999 the U.S. National Academy of Sciences is going to begin a "fast track" study to investigate the risks and benefits of genetically modified (GM) crops. NAS Studies usually take about 18 months but this study is expected to be completed in six months. Biotech companies like Monsanto, Dupont, and Dow have invested billons of dollars in GM food crops. They are now facing a meltdown of public trust in Europe and the possibility of that happening in the United States. The NAS panel is stacked in favor of the biotech companies. We believe they are behind this "fast-track' NAS study in order to gain a rubber stamp approval for their products.. The URL for the NAS Committee on Genetically Modified Crops is: http://www4.nas.edu/webcr.nsf/CommitteeDisplay/BANR-O-99-02-A?OpenDocument Below please find an article by Journalist Bill Lambrecht of the St. Louis Post regarding the NAS study. Sincerely, ------- Sample letter - media 2: Dear Editor, On April 8, 1999 the U.S. National Academy of Sciences is going to begin a "fast track" study to investigate the risks and benefits of genetically modified (GM) crops. NAS Studies usually take about 18 months but this study is expected to be completed in 6 months. Biotech companies like Monsanto, Dupont, and Dow have invested billons of dollars in GM food crops. They are now facing a meltdown of public trust in Europe and the possibility of that happening in the United States. The furor has reached firestorm proportions in other parts of the world, with people burning and uprooting biotech plots, UK MPs calling Monsanto "Public Enemy #1", supermarkets declaring themselves Genetic Engineering-free zones, the European Union potentially blockading against GM foods, and Brazil halting all GM seeds. Farmers in the US have eagerly bought into the biotech revolution, unaware of the environmental problems and potentially catastrophic economic downside: inability to sell their crop and contamination of their land and grain silos if the furor spreads to US consumers. Thus an immediate whitewash of the technology is crucial for these biotech food giants and their contractors, supporters, and farm clients. We believe that is the impetus behind this "fast-track" NAS study. The composition of the NAS panel is telling because it is heavily stacked in favor of the biotech industry. Monsanto, Dupont, and Dow already exert powerful influence in several critical parts of the federal government: trade, FDA, USDA, EPA, and the President and VP. A rubber stamp of the National Academy of Sciences might overcome the objections of many researchers and activists if they don't have the full story in front of them, and would influence the decisions of regulatory agencies abroad. The URL for the NAS Committee on Genetically Modified Crops is: http://www4.nas.edu/webcr.nsf/CommitteeDisplay/BANR-O-99-02-A?OpenDocument Below please find an article by Journalist Bill Lambrecht of the St. Louis Post regarding the NAS study. Sincerely, ------- Altered crops will get safety review By Bill Lambrecht St. Louis Post-Dispatch Washington Bureau The National Academy of Sciences is beginning an urgent study of the benefits and potential risks of genetically engineered crops with an eye toward recommending changes in government regulations. Over the next six months, a special committee of 13 scientists and experts chosen by the National Research Council, which is an arm of the National Academy of Sciences, will examine not only safety issues but social and economic implications of plants modified with pesticide genes. That includes most genetically engineered crops. Studies by the research council usually take about 18 months. But the new effort will be conducted in a third of that time because of pressing questions in need of answers, said the study's director, Michael Phillips. "Because of the urgency of this matter, we can't wait two years to slowly put out a statement," Phillips said. "There are a lot of questions, and the longer something like this lingers, it creates concern in the industry and society in general." The science academy did not formally announce its study; a list of the members selected for the special committee appeared without fanfare on the academy's Web site this week. Members will gather in Washington to begin their work on April 8. The study is especially important for St. Louis-based Monsanto Co., the global leader in genetic technologies for farming and food. Philip Angell, Monsanto's director of communications, said his company welcomes the government's review. "We're confident in the science, we're confident in the technology," Angell said. "This is certainly a distinguished body that we believe will validate what we've always known about this." The National Academy of Sciences serves as a scientific adviser to the U.S. government, but it is not a government agency. It has about 1,600 members chosen for their achievements. New members are elected by the full membership. Usually, Congress or government agencies request and pay for studies by the academy's research council, but occasionally - about 1 in 10 times - the academy initiates its own study and pays for it from its endowment. This study is one of the occasional exceptions. At a meeting on Dec. 9 in Washington, the academy members agreed to conduct the genetic engineering study and to assume the cost of about $300,000. The academy has not issued a report on genetically engineered crops in a decade. During that time, plantings of such crops in the United States have soared to more than 50 million acres. The new study will examine field trials and laboratory studies that have taken place in the 1990s. Part of the urgency has to do with forthcoming Environmental Protection Agency regulations. Those rules, which have been in the works since 1994, will govern farming with crops engineered to produce a protein that kills pests. For instance, farmers would need to maintain refuges - areas planted with conventional varieties - adjacent to the modified crops. Recently, the EPA has said that it will apply the rules sparingly. Nonetheless, many scientists, among them Washington State University's R. James Cook, believe that the EPA rules and definitions are too broadly drawn and need to be scaled back. "Call us naive academics if you want, but many of us believe that they scooped up too much to regulate," Cook said. These scientists appealed to the national academy, which agreed to begin the study. In other words, the study was initiated not because of concerns that there may be too little regulation but because of worries about too much regulation. No matter how it came about, the study is certain to have broad implications. In Europe, Asia and parts of South America, a debate is raging about the safety, morality and politics of altering the genetic code of food. That debate is beginning to sound in the United States. To answer skeptics, Monsanto and rivals argue that good science and a sound regulatory system in the United States underpin their new technologies. Here and abroad, the new study could validate those arguments. Or, it might identify where more study is needed and better rules are needed. Margaret Mellon, of the Union of Concerned Scientists in Washington, said her organization is pleased that the academy's study will take place even though it was generated by fears of over-regulation. "We have long been concerned that there is so little risk assessment being done and so few data being collected to see if the risks are present or not," Mellon said. "If this is a forum to see if there are risks, that is fine." For different reasons, Monsanto and environmental advocates want to keep the EPA rules that helped to generate the new study. The environmentalists want strict regulations because of what they see as unknown risks, such as the outcrossing - or escape - of genes into the wild. Companies assert that their technologies pose little or no risk that would require any new regulations that might result from the study. But, Monsanto's Angell said, companies need reasonable regulations for their genetic technologies to take root. -- http://www.greenbuilder.com modem: 512.288.3903 -- Green Building Professionals Directory at http://www.greenbuilder.com/directory/ To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail --------------55455D258E71B3E736E094E5-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 29 15:14:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA08458 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:14:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15447; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:02:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from wolfenet.com (ratty.wolfe.net [204.157.98.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24600 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:06:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from wolfenet.com (sea-pm3-6-p160.wolfenet.com [206.159.21.160]) by wolfenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA22020 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:09:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36FFBF6D.150BA9D8@wolfenet.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:59:14 -0800 From: Martin Nyberg Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: [Fwd: Am I reaching you? (Pest Control)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 441 If any of you responded to the email below, I did not receive it due to forwarding problems. I believe these problems are fixed now. Resend if you would like. Martin Martin Nyberg wrote: > If you are there (BDNOW list group), I would like to pose a question to anyone > familiar with two pests: > > sinfilins (sp?) > pea weavils > > In the Northwest we have sinfilins and they can become a disaster by eating > roots of all crops. They are small soil dwellers (look like miniature > millipedes, about a 1/4 inch long max.) who like wet soils. According to > Steve Solomon, there is no way to get rid of them save going fallow for at > least a two year rotation to starve them out. Their only enemies are black > beetles (forget the scientific name). I have a bad infestation in an isolated > portion of my property but I NEED to grow there this spring. > > Pea Weavils are munching the tender young leaves of my pea sprouts. I have > not heard of any organic method of damage control. > > I sure hope I am on the list now. I am not receiving my own posts like I used > to so I have no way of knowing unless someone replies to this post. > > Best Regards, > > Martin Nyberg From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 29 15:14:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA08475 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:14:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15206; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:02:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from wolfenet.com (ratty.wolfe.net [204.157.98.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24124 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from wolfenet.com (sea-pm3-6-p160.wolfenet.com [206.159.21.160]) by wolfenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23268 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:05:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36FFBEA4.775219A9@wolfenet.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:55:54 -0800 From: Martin Nyberg Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: [Fwd: Who's site is Sacred Soil?] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 442 If any of you responded to the email below, I did not receive it due to forwarding problems. I believe these problems are fixed now. Resend if you would like. Martin Martin Nyberg wrote: > Hi Martha and all. I hope I am reaching you now. I have been unable to get > on the bdnow list for several weeks for some reason. > > You are not missing anything. The Web site is missing something. It is just > not finished yet. The site is a great start and has good intent. But he is > an amateur Web designer and has somethings to learn. I have bookmarked the > site and will be checking it out as it develops. > > Martin > > Martha Wells wrote: > > > Who's garden / farm is Sacred Soil? > > http://www.sacred-soil.com/ > > I have the site bookmarked and was just taking a tour. The BD Preps pages > > are very informative. The explanation of how each preparation is made is > > easy to understand, but alas, no reason is given about what the preparation > > should be used for. Night and Greenhouse links take the viewer to those > > pages, but the subject lines aren't linked to anything. Am I missing > > something here? > > thanks > > martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 29 18:33:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA13793 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14949; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:14:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from news1.infoave.net (news1.InfoAve.Net [165.166.15.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21248 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:32:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by news1.infoave.net; id AA00537; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:35:19 -0500 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:35:19 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990329163112.41ffd2fe@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: [Fwd: Am I reaching you? (Pest Control)] Cc: bdnow@envirolink.org Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 443 The correct spelling for "sinfilins" is "symphylans". I don't know any remedy, but the right spelling may help you look it up elsewhere. Sincerely, Malcolm At 09:59 AM 3/29/99 -0800, Martin Nyberg wrote: >If any of you responded to the email below, I did not receive it due to >forwarding problems. I believe these problems are fixed now. Resend if you >would like. > >Martin > >Martin Nyberg wrote: > >> If you are there (BDNOW list group), I would like to pose a question to anyone >> familiar with two pests: >> >> sinfilins (sp?) >> pea weavils >> >> In the Northwest we have sinfilins and they can become a disaster by eating >> roots of all crops. They are small soil dwellers (look like miniature >> millipedes, about a 1/4 inch long max.) who like wet soils. According to >> Steve Solomon, there is no way to get rid of them save going fallow for at >> least a two year rotation to starve them out. Their only enemies are black >> beetles (forget the scientific name). I have a bad infestation in an isolated >> portion of my property but I NEED to grow there this spring. >> >> Pea Weavils are munching the tender young leaves of my pea sprouts. I have >> not heard of any organic method of damage control. >> >> I sure hope I am on the list now. I am not receiving my own posts like I used >> to so I have no way of knowing unless someone replies to this post. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Martin Nyberg > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 29 18:33:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA13801 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15002; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:14:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09707 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:44:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d154.infoserve.net [199.175.157.154]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA24069 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:50:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001401be7a36$38d728c0$9a9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: [Fwd: Who's site is Sacred Soil?] Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:45:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 444 it's fine. If any problems, you can always email thru igg@igg.com -----Original Message----- From: Martin Nyberg To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 12:08 PM Subject: [Fwd: Who's site is Sacred Soil?] >If any of you responded to the email below, I did not receive it due to >forwarding problems. I believe these problems are fixed now. Resend if you >would like. > >Martin > >Martin Nyberg wrote: > >> Hi Martha and all. I hope I am reaching you now. I have been unable to get >> on the bdnow list for several weeks for some reason. >> >> You are not missing anything. The Web site is missing something. It is just >> not finished yet. The site is a great start and has good intent. But he is >> an amateur Web designer and has somethings to learn. I have bookmarked the >> site and will be checking it out as it develops. >> >> Martin >> >> Martha Wells wrote: >> >> > Who's garden / farm is Sacred Soil? >> > http://www.sacred-soil.com/ >> > I have the site bookmarked and was just taking a tour. The BD Preps pages >> > are very informative. The explanation of how each preparation is made is >> > easy to understand, but alas, no reason is given about what the preparation >> > should be used for. Night and Greenhouse links take the viewer to those >> > pages, but the subject lines aren't linked to anything. Am I missing >> > something here? >> > thanks >> > martha > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 29 18:34:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA13819 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:34:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15125; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:15:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09715 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:44:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d154.infoserve.net [199.175.157.154]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA24073 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:50:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001501be7a36$39ba83e0$9a9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: [Fwd: Am I reaching you? (Pest Control)] Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:47:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 445 Dear Martin, For pea weevils, I know that beneficial nematodes are of help. The botanical extract, Neem, may also, but, no experience with it against the pea weevil. As for sinfilins, I don't know. Have not encountered them. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Martin Nyberg To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 12:08 PM Subject: [Fwd: Am I reaching you? (Pest Control)] >If any of you responded to the email below, I did not receive it due to >forwarding problems. I believe these problems are fixed now. Resend if you >would like. > >Martin > >Martin Nyberg wrote: > >> If you are there (BDNOW list group), I would like to pose a question to anyone >> familiar with two pests: >> >> sinfilins (sp?) >> pea weavils >> >> In the Northwest we have sinfilins and they can become a disaster by eating >> roots of all crops. They are small soil dwellers (look like miniature >> millipedes, about a 1/4 inch long max.) who like wet soils. According to >> Steve Solomon, there is no way to get rid of them save going fallow for at >> least a two year rotation to starve them out. Their only enemies are black >> beetles (forget the scientific name). I have a bad infestation in an isolated >> portion of my property but I NEED to grow there this spring. >> >> Pea Weavils are munching the tender young leaves of my pea sprouts. I have >> not heard of any organic method of damage control. >> >> I sure hope I am on the list now. I am not receiving my own posts like I used >> to so I have no way of knowing unless someone replies to this post. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Martin Nyberg > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 29 18:36:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA13847 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:36:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16250; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:23:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15936 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] ([208.138.96.18]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:26:03 -0500 Message-ID: <36FFC57B.35A3@webcity-development.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:25:23 +0000 From: Jane Sherry Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: WebCity Development LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Am I reaching you? (Pest Control)] References: <1.5.4.16.19990329163112.41ffd2fe@swva.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 446 Martin, If you join the Organic Gardening mailing list, I know you can get info from those folks on symphylans. There was much recent discussion about them as many members are from the NW Coast of the US. When I get back to my other computer, I can get you the sub info if you haven't found it by then. YOu can always look it up in their archives. I believe the discussion took place last month. Good luck Jane malcolm ian gardner wrote: > > The correct spelling for "sinfilins" is "symphylans". I don't know any > remedy, but the right spelling may help you look it up elsewhere. > > Sincerely, > Malcolm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 29 19:00:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA14307 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19982; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:47:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from pablo.total.net (pablo.total.net [205.236.175.128]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19598 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:45:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from windows98 (ppp-5800-03b-1163.mtl.total.net [207.139.64.163]) by pablo.total.net (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA11064 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:48:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <018201be7a3e$10e72f60$6b1fcdcd@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Fw: Garden Symphylan Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:41:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 447 -----Original Message----- From: Joel Reiten To: OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 10:11 PM Subject: Garden Symphylan >Some symphylan info to pass on; > >Symphylans (Scuitgerella immaculta) are 3-6 mm long, white, >with prominent antennae and numerous legs. Symps are hatched >with six legs but gain a pair every time they molt. The >adult has 12 pairs of legs. Symps spend there entire life >cycle in the soil. They are distinguished from centipedes by >their white color and smaller size. They are found in the >Northwest, north central and northeast parts of the US. They >are a serious garden pest in western Oregon and Washington. >Symps have two generations in a year. They tend to seek the >level in the soil where there is a stable temp and moisture >level. Symps are general plant feeders and will feed on >germinating seed, fine plant root hairs and fungi. Affected >plants appear stunted. A raw potato cut in half and placed >cut side down on the soil in the spring can be used to >sample the symph population. If more than 5 symphylans are >feeding on the potato you have a population at damaging >levels. A mite predator, Pergamasus quisquiliarum will >consume symphylans and may be a useful predator. Thoroughly >tilling the soil in the spring can provide some control but >more recent research shows that the damage done to the soil >biology may outweigh and symph control. The use of feeder >strips between the rows of vegetables may also proceed some >control. Thin strips of oats, wheat or clover are planted >before transplanting out vegetables. The thought is that the >symps will be attracted by the young, rapidly growing crop >and will avoid the transplanted ones. Promising research has >shown that increasing the levels of soil fungus will also >reduce crop pressure. >Joel@ TSC > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 29 19:42:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA14951 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:42:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25350; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:28:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from wolfenet.com (ratty.wolfe.net [204.157.98.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25257 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:27:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from wolfenet.com (sea-pm3-6-p160.wolfenet.com [206.159.21.160]) by wolfenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24514 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:30:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <370018B6.5ABDEA18@wolfenet.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:20:47 -0800 From: Martin Nyberg Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Am I reaching you? (Pest Control)] References: <1.5.4.16.19990329163112.41ffd2fe@swva.net> <36FFC57B.35A3@webcity-development.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 448 Wow, thanks Jane. Yes please send me the URL for the list archives and I may sign up. That would be three lists and may be overload... but I will look into it. How busy does it get? Martin Nyberg Jane Sherry wrote: > Martin, > If you join the Organic Gardening mailing list, I know you can get info > from those folks on symphylans. There was much recent discussion about > them as many members are from the NW Coast of the US. > > When I get back to my other computer, I can get you the sub info if you > haven't found it by then. YOu can always look it up in their archives. I > believe the discussion took place last month. > > Good luck > Jane > > malcolm ian gardner wrote: > > > > The correct spelling for "sinfilins" is "symphylans". I don't know any > > remedy, but the right spelling may help you look it up elsewhere. > > > > Sincerely, > > Malcolm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Mar 29 20:18:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA15396 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:18:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA00101; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:04:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from sarnia.xcelco.on.ca (sar-alpha.xcelco.on.ca [209.167.188.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29840 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:02:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from haggerty (sarpm2-ip36.xcelco.on.ca [209.167.188.185]) by sarnia.xcelco.on.ca (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id BAA24536 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 01:04:23 GMT From: "Ken, Jean Huffman" To: Subject: Re: [Fwd: Urgent Action Needed - Biased panel to set US biotech policy, laws] Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:04:38 -0800 Message-ID: <01be7a62$6e4127a0$b9bca7d1@haggerty> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Content-Type: text/plain; boundary="------------55455D258E71B3E736E094E5"; charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 449 Is this applicable to Canadians ie can we help? Jean From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 00:21:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA19355 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:21:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA28757; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:02:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from latina.latino.net.co (latina.latino.net.co [207.16.109.165]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19408 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:34:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from 1 (acc15201.latino.web.co [206.114.25.201]) by latina.latino.net.co (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA23793 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:37:33 -0500 (GMT-0500) From: " bachmans" To: Subject: RV: unsuscribe Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:40:06 -0500 Message-ID: <01be7a56$9f154520$LocalHost@1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0039_01BE7A2C.B63F3D20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 450 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01BE7A2C.B63F3D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- De: bachmans Para: bdnow@envirolink.org Fecha: Viernes 26 de Marzo de 1999 04:52 PM Asunto: unsuscribe UNSUSCRIBE ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01BE7A2C.B63F3D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
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------=_NextPart_000_0039_01BE7A2C.B63F3D20-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 00:22:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA19387 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:22:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA28913; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:03:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21155 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:48:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d155.infoserve.net [199.175.157.155]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA13486; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:54:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002201be7a60$b998cac0$9b9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: , Subject: Re: [Fwd: Urgent Action Needed - Biased panel to set US biotech policy, laws] Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:51:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 451 Yes., what happens in the US can affect us also. Not only does GE products try to become law here, but,. also we import a lot of US food up here. When they were going to classify what is organic down in the US by the FDA, I did my bit and faxed them what I thought about their bright ideas. M. -----Original Message----- From: Ken, Jean Huffman To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 5:11 PM Subject: Re: [Fwd: Urgent Action Needed - Biased panel to set US biotech policy, laws] >Is this applicable to Canadians ie can we help? >Jean > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 03:23:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA21374 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 03:23:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA09350; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 03:01:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from dogbert.ipa.net (dogbert.ipa.net [205.218.170.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA02183 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:51:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from steved.ipa.net (pool-149.faye.ipa.net [206.27.222.149]) by dogbert.ipa.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA22818 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:54:44 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <37006627.1C7@ipa.net> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:50:31 -0600 From: Steve Diver Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Radionics/Vibrational Agriculture Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 452 BD-Now Readers, Here is one more post I want to add as a resource to the list before I unsubscribe during the Spring Rush. =========================================================== =========================================================== Radionics is one the technologies used in eco-farming and bio-dynamic farming for diagnosis and broadcasting of subtle energy frequencies that lead to plant, soil, and animal health. For an overview of the topic, you can read about radionics and see an extensive listing of resources in the ATTRA publication: Radionics In Agriculture http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/alt/radionic.html For more detailed information, there are two recent books on this topic I want to share. Both are written by George Kuepper who has worked with radionics as a practitioner as well as instructor and crop advisor for about 15 years. "Radionics, Reality, and Man: Experimental Principles and Procedures of Radionics for Personal Health and Well-Being" "The text was written to provide a supportive reference for students of radionics. It is intended to serve both as a workbook of techniques, and also as a discussion of radionic philosophy and the physics and metaphysics underlying its practice. The focus is on utilization of basic Hieronymous analytical instruments and others cloned from that model. Detailed instructions for the SE-5 computerized instrument are also provided. Additional guidance on basic pendulum dowsing is also given. User-friendly, the text is written to be understood by the novice, but also contains information useful to experienced practitioners." Published in 1996; over 260 pages with more than 65 drawings and photos and more than 35 tables of radionic rates. "Plants, Soils, Earth Energy, and Radionics" "A follow-up text to "Radionics, Reality & Man", this book details applications of radionics to plant culture, earth energy, and practical needs of home and farmstead. Many of the examples and information provided come directly from the author's experiences using radionics to manage a commercial fruit farm. Still more come from over 20 years of work in sustainable and organic agriculture." Published in 1998; over 190 pages with 24 figures and more than 40 tables of radionic rates. These books are $36.50 each ($32.50 plus $4 p&h) Available through: George Kuepper GAIA P.O. Box 151 Goshen, AR 72735 Whereas in sustainable agriculture circles there still seems to be an emphasis on widely acceptable topics like cover crops and composts and value-added marketing, there is still a gap to recognition and support for alternative technologies such as radionics, cosmic pipes, biodynamic preparations, etc. However, that does not seem to be the case in the parallel field of Complementary and Alternative Medicine where, for example, radionics was featured in the Winter 1997 issue of "Bridges", the magazine of The International Society for the Study of Subtle Energies & Energy Medicine, or ISEEEM. International Society for the Study of Subtle Energies and Energy Medicine, ISSSEEM http://www.nekesc.org/~issseem/ Finally, it may be helpful to place radionics in the context of an emerging field known as vibrational agriculture. There is a term, coined after the title of a popular book, called Vibrational Medicine which describes many of the energy-based holistic human health practices like homeopathy, acupuncture, magneto-therapy, Shiatsu massage, cranial-sacro therapy, ayurveda, etc. In a similar vein, radionics and bio-dynamics and Reams' Biological Theory of Ionization and Luebke's Vitality Theory of Soil Fertility and Sarkar's Microvita Theory and homeopathy in agriculture etc. can all be understood as a collective body of concepts and technologies known as Vibrational Agriculture. Likewise, efforts to re-energize and restore water with flow forms and magnets and microhydrin crystals and biological remediation technologies such as constructed wetlands can be characterized as complementary components of Vibrational Water. Steve Diver =================================================================== From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 05:30:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA22446 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:30:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA16423; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:12:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.156]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA16251 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:10:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [151.196.125.81] (client-151-196-125-81.bellatlantic.net [151.196.125.81]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA10451 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:12:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903301012.FAA10451@smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:13:45 -0500 Subject: Re: [Fwd: Am I reaching you? (Pest Control)] From: "Steven McFadden" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 453 I'm getting your messages Martin -- but you don't seem to be getting my replies. - Steven ---------- >From: Martin Nyberg >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: [Fwd: Am I reaching you? (Pest Control)] >Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999, 12:59 PM > > If any of you responded to the email below, I did not receive it due to > forwarding problems. I believe these problems are fixed now. Resend if you > would like. > > Martin > > Martin Nyberg wrote: > >> If you are there (BDNOW list group), I would like to pose a question to anyone >> familiar with two pests: >> >> sinfilins (sp?) >> pea weavils >> >> In the Northwest we have sinfilins and they can become a disaster by eating >> roots of all crops. They are small soil dwellers (look like miniature >> millipedes, about a 1/4 inch long max.) who like wet soils. According to >> Steve Solomon, there is no way to get rid of them save going fallow for at >> least a two year rotation to starve them out. Their only enemies are black >> beetles (forget the scientific name). I have a bad infestation in an isolated >> portion of my property but I NEED to grow there this spring. >> >> Pea Weavils are munching the tender young leaves of my pea sprouts. I have >> not heard of any organic method of damage control. >> >> I sure hope I am on the list now. I am not receiving my own posts like I used >> to so I have no way of knowing unless someone replies to this post. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Martin Nyberg > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 05:31:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA22457 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:31:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA16621; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:15:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA16477 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:13:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.89] (pm3shep3-163-156.intrepid.net [209.190.163.156]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA02302 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:16:24 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37006627.1C7@ipa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:18:56 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: Radionics/Vibrational Agriculture Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 454 Steve Diver touted: >Luebke's Vitality Theory of Soil Fertility Steve - It was my impression that these folks simply repackaged and promoted Pfeiffer's ideas without giving credit where credit is due. Have you done an indepth write-up on them? Thanks -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 10:46:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00349 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:46:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11647; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:30:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from dogbert.ipa.net (dogbert.ipa.net [205.218.170.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11040 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:26:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from steved.ipa.net (pool-155.faye.ipa.net [206.27.222.155]) by dogbert.ipa.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA07606 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:29:35 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3700ECE0.249D@ipa.net> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:25:20 -0600 From: Steve Diver Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Radionics/Vibrational Agriculture References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 455 Intergalactic Garage wrote: > > Steve Diver touted: > > Luebke's Vitality Theory of Soil Fertility > > Steve - It was my impression that these folks simply repackaged and > promoted Pfeiffer's ideas without giving credit where credit is due. > Have you done an indepth write-up on them? > > Thanks > > -Allan Balliett Firstly, I detect a lack of netiquette on the part of the list faciliator, and secondly, a lack of appreciation and understanding of the *value* of modern day humus workers like Siegfried Luebke of Austria. I could reply with another long post in response to Allan's query, as an addition to the collective knowledge base of BD-Now, but as I said in my previous post it is the Spring season and my schedule is very busy. In addition, I feel that Allan's reply is an example of an email thread that misses the jewels in the muck. Instead of grasping and appreciating the totality of the thread, there is a focus on the minutae. Note that the topic was radionics, with a review of two very substantial books including how you can obtain them, that mostly likely few readers on BD-Now knew existed. In addition to the very useful and solid radionic resources, there was an introduction to whole new terminology in Vibrational Agriculture and Vibrational Water. These terms, which evolved here in the Ozarks through my research and association with world-class vibrational workers, embody whole levels of conceptual and practical information that will help save the planet in the nearer term as well as become part of mainstream science as the Era of Subtle Energy takes hold over the next 25 to 50 years. Finally, Allan, I think you are way off base in your analysis of the Pfeiffer-Luebke dichotomy, since no such schism occurs except in the minds of a few dinosaur biodynamic types. You should get together with Hugh Courtney down in Virginia, there you two can huff and puff and grumble and frown all day long. But in the end, what good will it do? For the record, I addressed this topic in my presentation at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference in Charles Town, WV. Steve Diver From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 11:00:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA00645 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13576; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:45:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from aristotle.net (aristotle.net [204.233.139.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13478 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:44:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.240.82.142] (pmppp142.aristotle.net [199.240.82.142]) by aristotle.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08391 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:47:44 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:47:44 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: vinnie@aristotle.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: BDNow@envirolink.org From: vinnie Subject: unsubscribe Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 456 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 11:23:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01122 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:23:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16636; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:06:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16257 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:04:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.143.52] ([208.210.143.52]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA21037 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:07:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:46:01 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Organic Ag and the Many Hands of THE GOVERNMENT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 457 > >Besides the theme of gov't working in a splintered and sometimes >contradictory way, I want to report back to you on the state of >National Standards. Many of you were involved in the HUGE outpouring >of protest the last time these standards were presented (since they >tried to include sewage sludge, irradiation, and GMOs in the >definition of organic) and may harbor resentments toward the people >that were responsible for that disaster. But I want to tell you how >impressed I was with Keith Jones, the new director of AMS, and how >hopeful I feel about the next standards proposal which is expected by >the end of the summer. Keith comes accross as a straight talking, >straight shooting Texan who certainly is rooted in fundamental >economic concepts (and therefore can talk the language of the >business folks) but he's also a former rancher (not just a pasty soft >bureaucrat) and seems genuinely concerned with the fundamental >tennents of organic agriculture as most people in the organic ag >community understand it. He's also committed to drafting rules that >will allow trade with the EU. Now, some of you might call me a >Polyanna, but I just wanted to tell you that the meeting was very >reassuring to me. But this doesn't, of course, mean that THE >GOVERNMENT is committed to organic ag and will hereafter have a >coordinated policy toward it. Quite the contrary! I expect that it >will continue in it's usual push me-pull me fashion with one hand >feeding the Monsonto's and the other hand drafting Farm Bills with >sustainablility, soil conservation, wetland protection, and perhaps >organic ag clauses. It's just the nature of the beast! > >Regards, Anita Dear Anita, Your e-mails show you've got a notion about politics and what is requried to forge some kind of concensus. Despite its admitted negatives, the Clinton presidency is a hallmark of a greater will to achieve concensus than any other presidency I can remember (and I go back to Truman). I believe this spirit was strong with FDR, and gave his presidency a flavor of broad support, though, again, there were admitted negatives such as his huge additions to bureaucracy. I thinkthat whatever we do we are going to have negatives. But, how does one forge concensus? I've very distrustful in general of anything coming from the government. There's a lot of lies and misdirection coming from government, and a lot of abuse of power, but I like the direction you're working in. Sure, our government is a fractured personality taken to logarithmic powers, but we have to deal with what we've got. That's realistic. Let's see where we can get to from where we are. Go for it, Anita. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." --Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 11:24:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01128 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:23:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16589; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:06:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16225 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:04:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.143.52] ([208.210.143.52]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA21010 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:07:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199903251802.NAA24212@envirolink.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:39:40 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD compost in arid climate Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 458 > >Hi Pam: > >In a hot and arid climate, I guess you need to water it throughly when you >build the pile and then re-water it as need it when you move the pile (if >you do move it). Here I always cover loosely my piles to cut down on >evaporation during the dry season and nutrients running out during the >rainy season, I do it with nylon but you can do it also with natural stuff >such as clay, large leafs (here some people use banana leafs), etc. > >The nylon that I use also promotes the decay of the outer parts of the >material, by keeping it moistier (due to evaporation and condensation) >than the inner parts, so there is less need to move the piles. Another >good thing about the plastic-nylon is that it keeps a microenvironment >where all sorts of creatures live. I have lizards, toads and all sort of >arachnids and insects living bellow the nylon covers, even now (dry >season) that such life has gone dormant elsewhere. > >I have mean temperatures of 90 F year round, 80 % humidity in the rainy >season (july-october), 20 % humidity in the dry season and, I am able to >get finished compost in about three months using manures, grinded greens >and browns and plenty of water. > >Hope this helps. > > >Guillermo Romero I. >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Dear Pam and Guillermo, Visiting Ed Mendoza, the farmer at the Gila River Indian Community in southern Arizona, last January I was impressed at his patient approach to composting and mulching in that low moisture environment. One of the things he did was stacking crop residues and other compostables on beds and taking a full year or more breaking them down, and what a wonderfully rich ecology this created, not only with flora (plants) but with fauna (animals). He didn't have shredders or anything high tech except his drip irrigation system. So he stacked and let things get brittle, brittle and walked on them to break them up (and break them down). It was artfully done with a wonderful insight into nature that I can't describe but can only admire. I don't know much about arid climates, but Ed understood them from his whole life experience and believe me it gave "fallow ground" a meaning it could never have in my 70 inch rainfall environment. I think one of the most insightful things about Ed's method of--not sheet composting, but bed/mulch composting--was it took otherwise arid land that had too little organic matter and gave it a blanket that drew in life energy, held on to it and built it up over much larger areas than if you stacked everything in a pile and got a rapid decomposition. If you poked into his coarse, heavy bed mulches after they'd been there a year you stirred into a teeming community of all kinds of things scurrying here and there. I was really impressed. He was bringing land to life in situ (right there in place) so that when the fallow year was over and you forked everything up and grew a drip irrigated crop you had wonderful fertility. It was an education just seeing it. It was nothing like the piles we build in wet climates with fast decomposition and all the work of hauling and spreading. He took the organic matter and used it to generate dynamic life activity. Maybe he thought of it as doing the sensible, easy thing whith what he had, no big thing, but woe is on this earth because such things are NOT usually done. My hat's off to this guy, but he doesn't have e-mail so far as I know. You might call him at 520 568 3509 (home, evenings). I hope he doesn't mind, and he speaks fluent Spanish. He is very special and I don't know if he realizes how much insight his small acreage showed me he had, but let me tell you this guy had some good ideas about bringing arid land to life. Best, Hugh Lovel Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." --Walter Russell From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 12:09:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02063 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:09:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24396; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:53:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.cyberhighway.net (smtp1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.33]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23670 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:49:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903301649.LAA23670@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 9361 invoked from network); 30 Mar 1999 09:52:53 -0700 Received: from ts2-29.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO ?209.161.18.180?) (209.161.18.180) by smtp1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 30 Mar 1999 09:52:53 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:52:04 -0700 Subject: Re: BD compost in arid climate From: "Pam DeTray" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 459 Dear Hugh, Thanks for looking in on this. Ed's method, as you describe it, is exactly how I've created soil around here for the last 9 years. I developed soil on my little property as a result of a succession of piles of whatever materials I could get my hands on, and most of what I grew was used to feed those piles, not human bodies! This is the first year I've really had enough soil everywhere to grow a real quantity of "human" food. I used a friend's shredder one year, but couldn't stand the noise. Our basic method was to pile things up (material, handfuls of soil, pinch of finished compost), then have the kids walk around on the piles before we watered them. The next year, we would plant a few veggies in the resulting bed, then the next year, trees, shrubs, and perennial flowers and herbs. Last fall, my preps went into a pile that took all spring and summer to build to a sufficient mass, so I could water as I went. My query on the water content of the compost was due to this being my first classic one-ton BD pile, also my first use of new, wet manure. I've never been so "technical" in my approach before this, but I've never grown food for humans on the scale we plan this year. Thanks again, even though I'm a little jealous of your 70" rainfall! ----------------------------------------------------- Pam DeTray psdetray@cyberhighway.net ---------- >From: Hugh Lovel >Visiting Ed Mendoza, the farmer at the Gila River Indian Community in >southern Arizona, last January I was impressed at his patient approach to >composting and mulching in that low moisture environment. One of the things >he did was stacking crop residues and other compostables on beds and taking >a full year or more breaking them down, and what a wonderfully rich ecology >this created, not only with flora (plants) but with fauna (animals). He >didn't have shredders or anything high tech except his drip irrigation >system. So he stacked and let things get brittle, brittle and walked on >them to break them up (and break them down). It was artfully done with a >wonderful insight into nature that I can't describe but can only admire. I >don't know much about arid climates, but Ed understood them from his whole >life experience and believe me it gave "fallow ground" a meaning it could >never have in my 70 inch rainfall environment. > >I think one of the most insightful things about Ed's method of--not sheet >composting, but bed/mulch composting--was it took otherwise arid land that >had too little organic matter and gave it a blanket that drew in life >energy, held on to it and built it up over much larger areas than if you >stacked everything in a pile and got a rapid decomposition. If you poked >into his coarse, heavy bed mulches after they'd been there a year you >stirred into a teeming community of all kinds of things scurrying here and >there. I was really impressed. He was bringing land to life in situ (right >there in place) so that when the fallow year was over and you forked >everything up and grew a drip irrigated crop you had wonderful fertility. >It was an education just seeing it. It was nothing like the piles we build >in wet climates with fast decomposition and all the work of hauling and >spreading. He took the organic matter and used it to generate dynamic life >activity. Maybe he thought of it as doing the sensible, easy thing whith >what he had, no big thing, but woe is on this earth because such things are >NOT usually done. > >My hat's off to this guy, but he doesn't have e-mail so far as I know. You >might call him at 520 568 3509 (home, evenings). I hope he doesn't mind, >and he speaks fluent Spanish. He is very special and I don't know if he >realizes how much insight his small acreage showed me he had, but let me >tell you this guy had some good ideas about bringing arid land to life. > >Best, >Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 12:11:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02144 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:11:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24869; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:56:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24339 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:53:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00A908B7@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:56:06 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 30 Mar 99 11:55:59 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 30 Mar 99 11:55:45 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:55:38 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Organic Ag and the Many Hands of THE GOVERNMENT Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1331D5D504F@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 460 Thank you, Hugh! That means a lot to me. I was also wondering if anyone was going to comment on my post and wondering if bd-ers out there were thinking that national standards or international trade viability were not relevant to them. I hope that's not the case! Thanks again Hugh for your acknowledgement and kind words. Anita > Dear Anita, > > Your e-mails show you've got a notion about politics and what is > requried to forge some kind of concensus. Despite its admitted > negatives, the Clinton presidency is a hallmark of a greater will to > achieve concensus than any other presidency I can remember (and I go > back to Truman). I believe this spirit was strong with FDR, and gave > his presidency a flavor of broad support, though, again, there were > admitted negatives such as his huge additions to bureaucracy. I > thinkthat whatever we do we are going to have negatives. > > But, how does one forge concensus? I've very distrustful in general > of anything coming from the government. There's a lot of lies and > misdirection coming from government, and a lot of abuse of power, > but I like the direction you're working in. Sure, our government is > a fractured personality taken to logarithmic powers, but we have to > deal with what we've got. That's realistic. Let's see where we can > get to from where we are. Go for it, Anita. > > Best, > > > Hugh Lovel > Blairsville, Georgia > > > >Besides the theme of gov't working in a splintered and sometimes > >contradictory way, I want to report back to you on the state of > >National Standards. Many of you were involved in the HUGE outpouring > >of protest the last time these standards were presented (since they > >tried to include sewage sludge, irradiation, and GMOs in the > >definition of organic) and may harbor resentments toward the people > >that were responsible for that disaster. But I want to tell you how > >impressed I was with Keith Jones, the new director of AMS, and how > >hopeful I feel about the next standards proposal which is expected by > >the end of the summer. Keith comes accross as a straight talking, > >straight shooting Texan who certainly is rooted in fundamental > >economic concepts (and therefore can talk the language of the > >business folks) but he's also a former rancher (not just a pasty soft > >bureaucrat) and seems genuinely concerned with the fundamental > >tennents of organic agriculture as most people in the organic ag > >community understand it. He's also committed to drafting rules that > >will allow trade with the EU. Now, some of you might call me a > >Polyanna, but I just wanted to tell you that the meeting was very > >reassuring to me. But this doesn't, of course, mean that THE > >GOVERNMENT is committed to organic ag and will hereafter have a > >coordinated policy toward it. Quite the contrary! I expect that it > >will continue in it's usual push me-pull me fashion with one hand > >feeding the Monsonto's and the other hand drafting Farm Bills with > >sustainablility, soil conservation, wetland protection, and perhaps > >organic ag clauses. It's just the nature of the beast! > > > >Regards, Anita > > Dear Anita, > > Your e-mails show you've got a notion about politics and what is requried > to forge some kind of concensus. Despite its admitted negatives, the > Clinton presidency is a hallmark of a greater will to achieve concensus > than any other presidency I can remember (and I go back to Truman). I > believe this spirit was strong with FDR, and gave his presidency a flavor > of broad support, though, again, there were admitted negatives such as his > huge additions to bureaucracy. I thinkthat whatever we do we are going to > have negatives. > > But, how does one forge concensus? I've very distrustful in general of > anything coming from the government. There's a lot of lies and misdirection > coming from government, and a lot of abuse of power, but I like the > direction you're working in. Sure, our government is a fractured > personality taken to logarithmic powers, but we have to deal with what > we've got. That's realistic. Let's see where we can get to from where we > are. Go for it, Anita. > > Best, > > > Hugh Lovel > Blairsville, Georgia > > "No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." > --Walter Russell > > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 12:54:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03154 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:54:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01186; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:38:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from ww156.netaddress.usa.net (ww156.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.56]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00807 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:36:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 9173 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Mar 1999 17:39:36 -0000 Message-ID: <19990330173936.9172.qmail@ww156.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.56 by ww156 via web-mailer(M3.0.0.30) on Tue Mar 30 17:39:35 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Mar 99 12:39:35 EST From: jamie chenoweth To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: unsubscribe bdnow X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.0.0.30) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA00808 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 461 unsubscribe bdnow ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 12:59:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03265 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:59:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01621; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:41:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.hurontel.on.ca (mail.hurontel.on.ca [205.206.182.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01444 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:40:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from MERLINFR (clifford-212.wcl.on.ca [216.46.132.212]) by mail.hurontel.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA28346 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:55:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:55:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903301755.MAA28346@mail.hurontel.on.ca> X-Sender: merlinvf@mail.wcl.on.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Joe Von Frankenberg Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 462 From: "WRP" To: Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:21:09 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN UNSUBSCRIBE BD NOW! Joe von Frankenberg rr1 Elmwood N0G 1S0 ONTARIO CN From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 13:18:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03868 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:18:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05142; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:03:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ww181.netaddress.usa.net (ww181.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.81]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04659 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:00:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 26302 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Mar 1999 18:04:04 -0000 Message-ID: <19990330180404.26301.qmail@ww181.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.81 by ww181 via web-mailer(M3.0.0.30) on Tue Mar 30 18:04:04 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Mar 99 10:04:04 PST From: fairmont StateColllege To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: unsubscribe bdnow X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.0.0.30) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id NAA04669 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 463 unsubscribe bdnow ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 16:37:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA08635 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:37:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06921; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:23:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06562 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:21:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp300.cy-net.net [208.21.195.109]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03531 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:24:32 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7ABF.FDF3AD20@FLYLO>; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:14:23 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7ABF.FDF3AD20@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: dropping like flies & mycorrhizal fungi & Melissa Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:14:00 -0600 Encoding: 27 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 464 BD Now mems seem to be bailing out like ... flies? Hope it's just Spring's busy season. Oh well, more info for the rest of us! Question: I (hooray, it's running) finally got the tractor up and motivated enough to mow some acreage. Ordered seed for hay, and am thinking it gets SO DRY midsummer in Texas, about inoculating the seed with mycorrhizal fungi. Supposed to be great for nutrient - attracting and moisture - attracting qualities. Actually, you don't 'inoculate' the seed, the seed is merely a carrier for the spores to get to the soil. My banana pup had it as a baby and you should see it now! Has anyone had experience with this type of fungal inoculant? A bit pricey, $75 for a 3 lb tub which should do 3 acres. I have 8 - 12 acres (depending on how thick/thin I decide the seed must go out) to plant to hay this season. Thinking about just doing one container's worth and marking it off to see the differences. But, would like input from someone who has actually used the stuff on commercial scale first. thanks martha Oh, and a PS: If anyone finds Melissa in their computer system, go here: ByeMelissa.doc is a free download from the ZDNet Software Library. This program scans for the virus and fixes problems it caused. http://chkpt.zdnet.com/chkpt/zdna990330/hotfiles.zdnet.com/cgi-bin/texis /swlib/hotfiles/info.html?fcode=000YPG&b=product From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 17:35:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA09760 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:35:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14899; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:16:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14727 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:15:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp52.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.152]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA05559 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:15:42 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <000f01be7afa$b162afc0$984b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie M." To: "BD NOW LIST" Subject: Valerian culture Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:14:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 465 Dear Friends, I have been coddling a Valerian plant throughout the winter in my kitchen window sill. It has begrudgingly survived, giving me some root trimmings, (whose strength I underestimated - once!) and I'm thinking it is time to put it outside where it will be much happier. Any thoughts on best placement? Soil preference? Sunny, sandy, moist, shady, near the compost heap? Should I take the plant outside & try asking it? Any Valerian experts feel free to jump in here... I have tried to develop a relationship with this plant, so that I could recognize it on the farm (I'm sure its here somewhere:-)) and because I think the farm needs 507. (Phosphorus seems low here, or unavailable...I have found every other prep plant here...except Valerian). And perhaps if I become acquainted with it, acknowledge it...ok - WORSHIP it, maybe this will help with the phosphorus situation... This plant is my pal, so where should I put it? Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 17:58:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA10195 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:58:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11259; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:54:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10913 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:51:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00A9615A@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:54:37 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 30 Mar 99 16:54:31 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 30 Mar 99 16:54:30 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:54:25 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Organic and livestock Priority: normal In-reply-to: <01BE7825.EC6DE260@FLYLO> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <138183B4296@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 466 > Thanks, Anita for an uplifting post on organic certification program. > (Happy to see that a Texan doesn' t have his hand in the Chem Ag till.) > I was receiving the bulletins as they modified and ratified the NOSB regs, > but have not received anything in over a year or so. Recently they sent out > a flier that they'd like to contact by e-mail to save postage and I agreed, > so there may be some snags in the changeover. > I've been certified Organic several years ago, (market vegetables) but > decided not to pay for the licensing again until they settle all the dust > on what is or what is not OG. Martha, thanks for the feedback! I'm way behind on bd posts, but I did look through the subject headings this morning before I posted a reply to Hugh saying that no one was commenting on my USDA post. I was fooled by the new heading you put on this. So, as I make my way through over a screen's worth of posts, I appologize if I missed (and therefore seemed to have discounted) any other responses to my national standards post. > The way I understand it, as soon as it quit > being a State regulated dept and went National is where the major > mess started. (I'm sure it's more detailed than that, but I'm not > into details this morning!) Just to comment here. State standards might be okey if export were not a priority for the organic ag community. Obviously it only touches a minority (at this point, anyway), but I think it's important enough to warrant national standards. Certification is up for a major overhall when the National Organic Program is put into place and things will change on many different planes, but the issue of organic has just gotten too big for it's current britches. National standards will have both good and bad effects, but as long as it will not be prohibitively expensive for the small producer, I think (I pray!) that it will be worth it. It will certainly make it harder for slackers masquerading as organic producers. Just as an aside, start looking for who the certifier is on the "organic" products you buy. Since I have gotten into this, I have been suprised by several things. One of these things is that a product can say "organic" but not be under the oversight of any particular certifying agent just by saying "grown in accordance with the California Organic SomethingOrOther" (I can't remember the exact words), but it's some funny loophole that basically means they're on their own regognicense (sp?). I, for one, am not totally confident in this. So glad to see you've found a good market for your goat milk, Martha. Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 17:58:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA10203 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:58:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14374; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:12:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14121 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:11:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d149.infoserve.net [199.175.157.149]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA03929 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:17:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000c01be7afa$cc3fd2a0$959dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: dropping like flies & mycorrhizal fungi & Melissa Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:14:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 467 Dear Martha, many thanks for the Melissa and other warnings. It seems to have been aimed more at large corporations (according to TV and newspaper), and, interestingly enough, here in British Columbia and Vancouver, it hardly touched anybody. Not enough large corps., I guess. I did enjoy the Vancouver Sun'snewspaper headline; "Commuter group warns users of macro virus lurking in e-mail". I do hope the next time I commute in my car I don't catch a virus other than colds or flus-and even then....! Michael -----Original Message----- From: Martha Wells To: 'Biodynamic Now' Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 1:30 PM Subject: dropping like flies & mycorrhizal fungi & Melissa >BD Now mems seem to be bailing out like ... flies? Hope it's just Spring's >busy season. > >Oh well, more info for the rest of us! Question: >I (hooray, it's running) finally got the tractor up and motivated enough to >mow some acreage. Ordered seed for hay, and am thinking it gets SO DRY >midsummer in Texas, about inoculating the seed with mycorrhizal fungi. > Supposed to be great for nutrient - attracting and moisture - attracting >qualities. Actually, you don't 'inoculate' the seed, the seed is merely a >carrier for the spores to get to the soil. >My banana pup had it as a baby and you should see it now! > >Has anyone had experience with this type of fungal inoculant? >A bit pricey, $75 for a 3 lb tub which should do 3 acres. I have 8 - 12 >acres (depending on how thick/thin I decide the seed must go out) to plant >to hay this season. Thinking about just doing one container's worth and >marking it off to see the differences. But, would like input from someone >who has actually used the stuff on commercial scale first. >thanks >martha > >Oh, and a PS: If anyone finds Melissa in their computer system, go here: >ByeMelissa.doc is a free download from the ZDNet Software Library. >This program scans for the virus and fixes problems it caused. >http://chkpt.zdnet.com/chkpt/zdna990330/hotfiles.zdnet.com/cgi-bin/texis >/swlib/hotfiles/info.html?fcode=000YPG&b=product > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 18:14:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA10455 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:14:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20953; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:01:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17881 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:37:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (tor-pm-5-142.netrover.com [205.209.27.142]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA27770 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:40:49 -0500 (EST) From: "manfred palmer" To: "bdnow" Subject: Fw: Traitor Technology Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:45:53 -0500 Message-ID: <01be7aff$11152480$7515d1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 468 -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey Newman To: Rochelle Eisen ; Doug Cooper ; Manfred Palmer Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 1:14 PM Subject: Traitor Technology >---------- >From: annie oakley >To: ban@tao.ca >Subject: BAN: Fwd: traitor technology >Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 11:33 PM > > >Rural Advancement Foundation International (RAFI) >News Release >29 March 1999 >http://www.rafi.org > > > ** TRAITOR TECHNOLOGY: "Damaged Goods" from the Gene Giants ** > > --------------------------------------------------------- > New report from RAFI details over 2 dozen "Terminator II" > patents that link suicide seeds to proprietary chemicals, > genetically-weakened plants, and the patented power to > make genetically-inviable plants rise from the dead. > --------------------------------------------------------- > >Beyond the prognostications of even its most pessimistic critics, >Terminator science is snowballing into the corporate profit centre of the >next decade and beyond. And, if the major seed and agrochemical >multinationals have their way, Terminator and Traitor (negative trait) >technologies will come on the heels of the new millennium to a farm near >you. RAFI's Executive Director Pat Mooney declares, "With this report and >our previous work on the Terminator, RAFI is sounding the alarm that >without government action, these technologies will be commercialized within >a few years with potentially disastrous consequences." > >Says RAFI Programme Officer Edward Hammond, "Since we discovered the >original Terminator patent a year ago, even at our most pessimistic we >never forecast negative trait genetic engineering to explode as quickly as >it has." Most observers thought there would be a delay of two or three >years before second and third generation Terminator refinements were >patented; but instead says Hammond, "a survey of patent offices reveals >that the cat is completely out of the bag. In fact, the original Terminator >may be a dead letter because enhanced Terminator seeds are already in the >laboratory." > >RAFI reports that every Gene Giant multinational has patented, or admits it >is working on genetically-sterilized or chemically-dependent seeds. RAFI's >report provides details and analysis on over two dozen such patents >recently obtained by 12 institutions. The patents seek to exploit - or >could exploit - new genetic engineering techniques that use inducible >promoters to disable critical plant functions governing reproduction, >disease resistance, and seed viability. > >If commercialization of such seeds proceeds, farmers worldwide will be >tangled in an expensive web of chemicals, intellectual property, and >disabled germplasm that leads to bioserfdom. The technology spells >disaster for farmers and global food security because over three quarters >of the world's farmers - mainly poor farmers - depend on farm saved seed. >The complete removal of farmers from the age-old process of plant breeding >through sterilized seed could also signify a disastrous narrowing of the >genepool on which everyone depends for food security. > >SCARY SCOPE: According to RAFI's Research Director Hope Shand, "The >patents describe the use of external chemicals to turn on and off genetic >traits in plants and go well beyond DeltaPine's original 'Terminator' >patent. They are techniques to control a wide variety of 'input' and >'output' (production and processing) traits by spraying with proprietary >herbicides or fertilizers. Others take us beyond crop plants to the use of >Terminator-style tactics on insects and even possibly mammals." > >KILLER GENES, JUNKIE SEEDS, AND MODERN-DAY "MIRACLES": Some patents aim to >switch the plant's germination on or off. AstraZeneca's Verminator patents >use what it calls 'killer genes' for this purpose. Yet AstraZeneca has >been telling governments, scientists, and the press that despite their >continuing pursuit of its patents around the world, they won't stop farmers >from saving seed. RAFI's Pat Mooney says, "Something didn't add up, so we >set out to investigate." > >Newly discovered patent claims explain the confusing AstraZeneca position. >The new patents refine AstraZeneca's "Verminator" technology that links >plant growth and germination to repeated application of proprietary >chemicals. Without specific patented chemicals, the plant doesn't grow. >"Essentially," says RAFI's Edward Hammond, "they're talking about the >manufacture of junkie plants that are physically dependent on a patented >chemical cocktail." AstraZeneca says it will patent the technology in 77 >countries. > >See AstraZeneca's Verminator II patent: >http://wo.dips.org/search97cgi/s97is.dll?Action=View&ViewTemplate=ep/en/vie w >er.h >ts&SearchType=4&VdkVgwKey=9735983 > >Says RAFI's Mooney, "So, you see AstraZeneca and the other Gene Giants >don't want farmers to buy new seed every year so much as to force them to >repurchase their old seed." Monsanto is already pioneering such 'pay by >the generation' techniques through legal means - the infamous grower >agreements - in the US and Canada; but research is steering toward >biological means of achieving the same sad end. Mooney says "It will be >vastly more profitable for multinationals to sell seeds programmed to >commit suicide at harvest so that farmers must pay the company to obtain >the chemicals to have them re-activated for the next planting - either >through a seed conditioning process or through the purchase of a >specialized chemicals that bring saved seed back to life, Lazarus-style." > >"In effect, this shifts all the seed costs to farmers, and the companies >won't have to multiply, ship, and warehouse massive seed stocks," Hammond >adds, "As the seed oligopoly strengthens, companies will have less and less >incentive to invest in plant breeding research, after all they'll already >have the farmers in a position of utter dependency." Pat Mooney agrees, >"With these 'Lazarus-link seeds' the advertising investment will continue >but the research investment will wither away." > >GENETIC MUTILATION: An especially disturbing feature of some of the new >patents profiled in RAFI's report is the deliberate disabling of natural >plant functions that help to fight disease. Swiss biotech giant Novartis >is most advanced in this aspect of Traitor technology. Novartis blandly >refers to it as "inactivation of endogenous regulation" so that "genes >which are natively regulated can be regulated exclusively by the >application to the plant of a chemical regulator." > >Among the genes which Novartis can control in this manner are patented SAR >(systemic acquired resistance) genes which are critical to plant's ability >to fight off infections from many viruses and bacteria. Thus, Novartis has >patented techniques to create plants with natural healthy functions turned >off. "The only way to turn them back on and fix these 'damaged goods' " >says RAFI's Edward Hammond, "is, well, you guessed it, the application of a >propietary chemical." > >See the Novartis antisense regulation of SAR systems patent: >http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1 & >u=/n >etahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='5,650,505'.WKU.&OS=PN/5,650,505&RS=PN/ 5 >,650 >,505 > >TIGHT-LIPPED MONSANTO: Caught like a deer in the headlights during recent >battles over genetically-modified plants - especially in Europe - Monsanto >has sought to deflect questions and criticism about Terminator technology >by saying that the Terminator belongs to its soon-to-be subsidiary Delta >and Pine Land Company. As such, the oft-repeated PR position goes, Monsanto >doesn't yet have access to the Terminator and can't inform concerned >governments and people about plans for Terminator seed. > >"It's been their mantra across the world." says RAFI's Mooney, "We've heard >the same confusing statements from Monsanto representatives in New Zealand, >India, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Brazil, the EU, and the US." Even last week, at a >Harvard University presentation, Monsanto's representative similarly >shrugged off the question. "In fact," says RAFI's Mooney, "it's a >deliberate ploy - or, at best, incomplete information - that obfuscates >facts about the company's own research agenda. Monsanto already has its >own in-house, patented Terminator technology, which it says it will patent >in a whopping 89 countries. Obviously, the company is not being >forthright. If Monsanto doesn't start coming clean, it risks further >damage to its already tarnished image." > >See Monsanto's Terminator II patent: >http://wo.dips.org/search97cgi/s97is.dll?Action=View&ViewTemplate=ep/en/vie w >er.h >ts&SearchType=4&VdkVgwKey=9744465 > >WILL TERMINATOR WORK? RAFI notes that some plant scientists are skeptical >that Traitor Technology will work successfully in the field. Monsanto, one >of the original Traitor Tech proponents, is encouraging this view. There >is no doubt that Traitor Tech will be continually refined as it moves >toward the market; but terminator plants are already in the greenhouse and >profit estimates are being calculated. "It's only a matter of time. Every >major pesticide-producing Gene Giant is hard at work perfecting the >technology." Shand adds, "Companies don't patent for the fun of the >paperwork and paying lawyer's fees. Those who think corporations will drop >the Terminator - or think it won't make it to market - are living in >Fantasyland. There's too much money to be made. Unless it is banned by >governments, Terminator is going to happen, and probably sooner rather than >later." > >WILL FARMERS BUY IT? Delta & Pine Land and Monsanto insist that no one >will force farmers to buy Terminator seed. The real question is, will >farmers have a choice? The commercial seed industry is imploding, and a >handful of Gene Giants already control a rapidly expanding share of major >seed markets. After DuPont announced earlier this month that it would buy >Pioneer Hi-Bred, the world's largest seed company, the Wall Street Journal >concluded that the deal "effectively divides" most of the US seed industry >between DuPont and Monsanto. With the disappearance of public sector plant >breeders, farmers are becoming increasingly vulnerable and have fewer >choices in the marketplace. > >TERMINATING THE TERMINATOR: RAFI and its partners around the world are >contacting governments asking them to declare all of the Terminator-style >patent claims as contrary to ordre public. In January, Global Response (a >US based non-profit organization) encouraged its 4,000 members in forty >countries to write to the Director-General of FAO asking him to oppose the >Terminator as a matter of world food security. FAO has replied that >governments may take up the issue in Rome April 19 to 23 during the meeting >of the FAO Commission on Genetic Resources for Food and Agriculture. RAFI >will be at that meeting and will make a presentation to governments. >Further, concerned individuals from 71 countries have sent almost 7,000 >letters to US Agriculture Secretary Glickman asking him to ban the >Terminator. > >Although global opposition is mounting, RAFI worries that the UN's >Biodiversity Convention may go "soft" on the environmental and social >implications of the technology. When the Convention meets in Montreal in >June, it is to receive a scientific study on Terminator. "We will read and >respond to that study very quickly," Pat Mooney advises. > >------ > >For further information: > >Website: http://www.rafi.org > >Pat Roy Mooney, Executive Director, RAFI >110 Osborne Street South, Suite 202 >Winnipeg, MB, R3L 1Y5 CANADA >Tel: +1 204 453-5259 >Fax: +1 204 925-8134 >E-mail: rafi@rafi.org > >Hope Shand, Research Director, RAFI >Tel: +1 717 337-6482 >Fax: +1 717 337-6499 >E-mail: hope@rafi.org > >Edward Hammond, Programme Officer, RAFI >Tel: +1 206 323-7378 >Fax: +1 206 323-6052 >E-mail: hammond@rafi.org > >-- > > ******************************* >Jeffrey Newman >My personal web site is at http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Flats/5759/ >My ICQ number is: 9879310 > >"As a rule, it was the pleasure-haters who became unjust." - W.H. Auden > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 18:23:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA10659 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:23:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA22129; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:07:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21446 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:04:17 -0500 (EST) From: HILAWRIGHT@aol.com Received: from HILAWRIGHT@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hIBVa16082 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:05:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3e2481a2.3701589e@aol.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:05:02 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: burying horns/re Many hands of government Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows 95 sub 176 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 469 Could anyone explain why the horns need to be buried in fertile soil? I've been told for viticulture that you shouldn't bury them in vineyards as the soil there generally isn't fertile enough. Thanks for the postings on the latest on National Standards.What is decided will affect us here in the UK and I have been searching websites wondering why I can't find out what's happening. Thank you BDNow! Hilary Wright London From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 18:39:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA10927 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:39:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA24899; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:26:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24590 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:24:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d141.infoserve.net [199.175.157.141]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA08481 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:30:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001d01be7b05$0010b360$8d9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Valerian culture Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:25:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 470 Julie, def. sunny. Not sure about the soil etc. Mine just grows. I have both white and red, but, the red is the one for the prep. M. -----Original Message----- From: Julie M. To: BD NOW LIST Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 2:22 PM Subject: Valerian culture >Dear Friends, > >I have been coddling a Valerian plant throughout the winter in my kitchen >window sill. It has begrudgingly survived, giving me some root trimmings, >(whose strength I underestimated - once!) and I'm thinking it is time to put >it outside where it will be much happier. Any thoughts on best placement? >Soil preference? Sunny, sandy, moist, shady, near the compost heap? Should I >take the plant outside & try asking it? Any Valerian experts feel free to >jump in here... > > I have tried to develop a relationship with this plant, so that I could >recognize it on the farm (I'm sure its here somewhere:-)) and because I >think the farm needs 507. (Phosphorus seems low here, or unavailable...I >have found every other prep plant here...except Valerian). And perhaps if I >become acquainted with it, acknowledge it...ok - WORSHIP it, maybe this will >help with the phosphorus situation... > >This plant is my pal, so where should I put it? > >Julie > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 18:40:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA10947 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:40:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA25005; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:26:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24607 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:24:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d141.infoserve.net [199.175.157.141]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA08484 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:30:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001e01be7b05$00fbafa0$8d9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Traitor Technology Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:27:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 471 Dear Manfred, I understand Terminator. What is Traitor? M. -----Original Message----- From: manfred palmer To: bdnow Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 3:07 PM Subject: Fw: Traitor Technology > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jeffrey Newman >To: Rochelle Eisen ; Doug Cooper >; Manfred Palmer >Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 1:14 PM >Subject: Traitor Technology > > >>---------- >>From: annie oakley >>To: ban@tao.ca >>Subject: BAN: Fwd: traitor technology >>Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 11:33 PM >> >> >>Rural Advancement Foundation International (RAFI) >>News Release >>29 March 1999 >>http://www.rafi.org >> >> >> ** TRAITOR TECHNOLOGY: "Damaged Goods" from the Gene Giants ** >> >> --------------------------------------------------------- >> New report from RAFI details over 2 dozen "Terminator II" >> patents that link suicide seeds to proprietary chemicals, >> genetically-weakened plants, and the patented power to >> make genetically-inviable plants rise from the dead. >> --------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Beyond the prognostications of even its most pessimistic critics, >>Terminator science is snowballing into the corporate profit centre of the >>next decade and beyond. And, if the major seed and agrochemical >>multinationals have their way, Terminator and Traitor (negative trait) >>technologies will come on the heels of the new millennium to a farm near >>you. RAFI's Executive Director Pat Mooney declares, "With this report and >>our previous work on the Terminator, RAFI is sounding the alarm that >>without government action, these technologies will be commercialized within >>a few years with potentially disastrous consequences." >> >>Says RAFI Programme Officer Edward Hammond, "Since we discovered the >>original Terminator patent a year ago, even at our most pessimistic we >>never forecast negative trait genetic engineering to explode as quickly as >>it has." Most observers thought there would be a delay of two or three >>years before second and third generation Terminator refinements were >>patented; but instead says Hammond, "a survey of patent offices reveals >>that the cat is completely out of the bag. In fact, the original Terminator >>may be a dead letter because enhanced Terminator seeds are already in the >>laboratory." >> >>RAFI reports that every Gene Giant multinational has patented, or admits it >>is working on genetically-sterilized or chemically-dependent seeds. RAFI's >>report provides details and analysis on over two dozen such patents >>recently obtained by 12 institutions. The patents seek to exploit - or >>could exploit - new genetic engineering techniques that use inducible >>promoters to disable critical plant functions governing reproduction, >>disease resistance, and seed viability. >> >>If commercialization of such seeds proceeds, farmers worldwide will be >>tangled in an expensive web of chemicals, intellectual property, and >>disabled germplasm that leads to bioserfdom. The technology spells >>disaster for farmers and global food security because over three quarters >>of the world's farmers - mainly poor farmers - depend on farm saved seed. >>The complete removal of farmers from the age-old process of plant breeding >>through sterilized seed could also signify a disastrous narrowing of the >>genepool on which everyone depends for food security. >> >>SCARY SCOPE: According to RAFI's Research Director Hope Shand, "The >>patents describe the use of external chemicals to turn on and off genetic >>traits in plants and go well beyond DeltaPine's original 'Terminator' >>patent. They are techniques to control a wide variety of 'input' and >>'output' (production and processing) traits by spraying with proprietary >>herbicides or fertilizers. Others take us beyond crop plants to the use of >>Terminator-style tactics on insects and even possibly mammals." >> >>KILLER GENES, JUNKIE SEEDS, AND MODERN-DAY "MIRACLES": Some patents aim to >>switch the plant's germination on or off. AstraZeneca's Verminator patents >>use what it calls 'killer genes' for this purpose. Yet AstraZeneca has >>been telling governments, scientists, and the press that despite their >>continuing pursuit of its patents around the world, they won't stop farmers >>from saving seed. RAFI's Pat Mooney says, "Something didn't add up, so we >>set out to investigate." >> >>Newly discovered patent claims explain the confusing AstraZeneca position. >>The new patents refine AstraZeneca's "Verminator" technology that links >>plant growth and germination to repeated application of proprietary >>chemicals. Without specific patented chemicals, the plant doesn't grow. >>"Essentially," says RAFI's Edward Hammond, "they're talking about the >>manufacture of junkie plants that are physically dependent on a patented >>chemical cocktail." AstraZeneca says it will patent the technology in 77 >>countries. >> >>See AstraZeneca's Verminator II patent: >>http://wo.dips.org/search97cgi/s97is.dll?Action=View&ViewTemplate=ep/en/vi e >w >>er.h >>ts&SearchType=4&VdkVgwKey=9735983 >> >>Says RAFI's Mooney, "So, you see AstraZeneca and the other Gene Giants >>don't want farmers to buy new seed every year so much as to force them to >>repurchase their old seed." Monsanto is already pioneering such 'pay by >>the generation' techniques through legal means - the infamous grower >>agreements - in the US and Canada; but research is steering toward >>biological means of achieving the same sad end. Mooney says "It will be >>vastly more profitable for multinationals to sell seeds programmed to >>commit suicide at harvest so that farmers must pay the company to obtain >>the chemicals to have them re-activated for the next planting - either >>through a seed conditioning process or through the purchase of a >>specialized chemicals that bring saved seed back to life, Lazarus-style." >> >>"In effect, this shifts all the seed costs to farmers, and the companies >>won't have to multiply, ship, and warehouse massive seed stocks," Hammond >>adds, "As the seed oligopoly strengthens, companies will have less and less >>incentive to invest in plant breeding research, after all they'll already >>have the farmers in a position of utter dependency." Pat Mooney agrees, >>"With these 'Lazarus-link seeds' the advertising investment will continue >>but the research investment will wither away." >> >>GENETIC MUTILATION: An especially disturbing feature of some of the new >>patents profiled in RAFI's report is the deliberate disabling of natural >>plant functions that help to fight disease. Swiss biotech giant Novartis >>is most advanced in this aspect of Traitor technology. Novartis blandly >>refers to it as "inactivation of endogenous regulation" so that "genes >>which are natively regulated can be regulated exclusively by the >>application to the plant of a chemical regulator." >> >>Among the genes which Novartis can control in this manner are patented SAR >>(systemic acquired resistance) genes which are critical to plant's ability >>to fight off infections from many viruses and bacteria. Thus, Novartis has >>patented techniques to create plants with natural healthy functions turned >>off. "The only way to turn them back on and fix these 'damaged goods' " >>says RAFI's Edward Hammond, "is, well, you guessed it, the application of a >>propietary chemical." >> >>See the Novartis antisense regulation of SAR systems patent: >>http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p= 1 >& >>u=/n >>etahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='5,650,505'.WKU.&OS=PN/5,650,505&RS=PN / >5 >>,650 >>,505 >> >>TIGHT-LIPPED MONSANTO: Caught like a deer in the headlights during recent >>battles over genetically-modified plants - especially in Europe - Monsanto >>has sought to deflect questions and criticism about Terminator technology >>by saying that the Terminator belongs to its soon-to-be subsidiary Delta >>and Pine Land Company. As such, the oft-repeated PR position goes, Monsanto >>doesn't yet have access to the Terminator and can't inform concerned >>governments and people about plans for Terminator seed. >> >>"It's been their mantra across the world." says RAFI's Mooney, "We've heard >>the same confusing statements from Monsanto representatives in New Zealand, >>India, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Brazil, the EU, and the US." Even last week, at a >>Harvard University presentation, Monsanto's representative similarly >>shrugged off the question. "In fact," says RAFI's Mooney, "it's a >>deliberate ploy - or, at best, incomplete information - that obfuscates >>facts about the company's own research agenda. Monsanto already has its >>own in-house, patented Terminator technology, which it says it will patent >>in a whopping 89 countries. Obviously, the company is not being >>forthright. If Monsanto doesn't start coming clean, it risks further >>damage to its already tarnished image." >> >>See Monsanto's Terminator II patent: >>http://wo.dips.org/search97cgi/s97is.dll?Action=View&ViewTemplate=ep/en/vi e >w >>er.h >>ts&SearchType=4&VdkVgwKey=9744465 >> >>WILL TERMINATOR WORK? RAFI notes that some plant scientists are skeptical >>that Traitor Technology will work successfully in the field. Monsanto, one >>of the original Traitor Tech proponents, is encouraging this view. There >>is no doubt that Traitor Tech will be continually refined as it moves >>toward the market; but terminator plants are already in the greenhouse and >>profit estimates are being calculated. "It's only a matter of time. Every >>major pesticide-producing Gene Giant is hard at work perfecting the >>technology." Shand adds, "Companies don't patent for the fun of the >>paperwork and paying lawyer's fees. Those who think corporations will drop >>the Terminator - or think it won't make it to market - are living in >>Fantasyland. There's too much money to be made. Unless it is banned by >>governments, Terminator is going to happen, and probably sooner rather than >>later." >> >>WILL FARMERS BUY IT? Delta & Pine Land and Monsanto insist that no one >>will force farmers to buy Terminator seed. The real question is, will >>farmers have a choice? The commercial seed industry is imploding, and a >>handful of Gene Giants already control a rapidly expanding share of major >>seed markets. After DuPont announced earlier this month that it would buy >>Pioneer Hi-Bred, the world's largest seed company, the Wall Street Journal >>concluded that the deal "effectively divides" most of the US seed industry >>between DuPont and Monsanto. With the disappearance of public sector plant >>breeders, farmers are becoming increasingly vulnerable and have fewer >>choices in the marketplace. >> >>TERMINATING THE TERMINATOR: RAFI and its partners around the world are >>contacting governments asking them to declare all of the Terminator-style >>patent claims as contrary to ordre public. In January, Global Response (a >>US based non-profit organization) encouraged its 4,000 members in forty >>countries to write to the Director-General of FAO asking him to oppose the >>Terminator as a matter of world food security. FAO has replied that >>governments may take up the issue in Rome April 19 to 23 during the meeting >>of the FAO Commission on Genetic Resources for Food and Agriculture. RAFI >>will be at that meeting and will make a presentation to governments. >>Further, concerned individuals from 71 countries have sent almost 7,000 >>letters to US Agriculture Secretary Glickman asking him to ban the >>Terminator. >> >>Although global opposition is mounting, RAFI worries that the UN's >>Biodiversity Convention may go "soft" on the environmental and social >>implications of the technology. When the Convention meets in Montreal in >>June, it is to receive a scientific study on Terminator. "We will read and >>respond to that study very quickly," Pat Mooney advises. >> >>------ >> >>For further information: >> >>Website: http://www.rafi.org >> >>Pat Roy Mooney, Executive Director, RAFI >>110 Osborne Street South, Suite 202 >>Winnipeg, MB, R3L 1Y5 CANADA >>Tel: +1 204 453-5259 >>Fax: +1 204 925-8134 >>E-mail: rafi@rafi.org >> >>Hope Shand, Research Director, RAFI >>Tel: +1 717 337-6482 >>Fax: +1 717 337-6499 >>E-mail: hope@rafi.org >> >>Edward Hammond, Programme Officer, RAFI >>Tel: +1 206 323-7378 >>Fax: +1 206 323-6052 >>E-mail: hammond@rafi.org >> >>-- >> >> ******************************* >>Jeffrey Newman >>My personal web site is at >http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Flats/5759/ >>My ICQ number is: 9879310 >> >>"As a rule, it was the pleasure-haters who became unjust." - W.H. Auden >> >> > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 18:56:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11240 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:56:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA27446; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:44:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27037 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:41:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (cust56.nrvmax6.tor1.netrover.com [206.186.85.56] (may be forged)) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA14426 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:44:26 -0500 (EST) From: "manfred palmer" To: "bdnow" Subject: [Off] Fw: Sustainability [long] Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:49:30 -0500 Message-ID: <01be7b07$f48cac80$7515d1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 472 Hi list : I thought : here is another good voice out there. -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey Newman Manfred Palmer Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 6:27 PM Subject: Sustainability >Tribune Online News Story >Story ran on March 30, 1999 > >A revolution, row by row > >By JOHN IKERD > >Sustainability was once referred to as "a quiet revolution sweeping across >American agriculture." The revolution continues, but the time for quietness >has passed. > >The current crisis in American agriculture, like the revolution, has been a >quiet one. Thousands of farm families are being forced off the land, an >inevitable consequence, we are told, of technological progress. Farmers are >offered the options of getting bigger, giving in to corporate control or >getting out. > >The crisis is a chronic symptom of the type of agriculture we have been >promoting in this country for the past 50 years, magnified by the brazen >attempts of giant corporations to wrest control from family farms and >complete the industrialization of agriculture. But industrialization is >neither inevitable nor progressive. > >There’s a better way to farm, a better way to produce food and fiber and a >better way to live. We are entering a new era in American agriculture — an >era in which we learn to support people through agriculture rather than >sacrifice their well being to support the industry of agriculture. It’s >time to proclaim a new agricultural revolution. > >Sustainable agriculture and industrial agriculture are two fundamentally >different philosophies—diametrically and irreconcilably opposed. There is >no common ground on which to compromise. > >Our task is made more difficult by institutions that see industrialization >as the only viable option for the future. The government subsidizes our >industrial competitors with everything from tax concessions to direct farm >program payments. We are excluded from traditional markets and prevented >from marketing direct to customers by a maze of complex government >regulations. We are denied equal access to the research and educational >resources of public institutions. > >Others believe agriculture is mostly about products and profits — not >people. To them, if food is cheaper or more convenient, it doesn’t really >matter who produces it or how it is produced. But people do matter. > >About a year ago, when I was recovering from open-heart surgery, I read a >book: "The Life and Major Works of Thomas Paine." Paine, a writer during >the American Revolution, was credited with articulating the ideas of the >Revolution in terms that could be understood by the "common man." He signed >his early writings with the pen name "Common Sense." > >Today, Paine’s work provides valuable insights into how to keep a >revolution from failing — at least when the cause makes common sense. >Sustainable agriculture, like freedom and democracy, is a cause that makes >common sense. > >Paine gave no quarter to the enemies of freedom and democracy. Nothing in >his writings could be mistaken for impartial objectivity. His papers always >extolled the great benefits that would be realized by the colonies once >they had shed the yoke of British rule. And he never doubted that the >American colonists eventually would win their war for independence. > >We must adopt Thomas Paine’s approach to revolutionize American agriculture >— not gradual, incremental changes in farming practices but a fundamentally >different philosophy of farming. The divergence between industrial >agriculture and sustainable agriculture is as great as that between >monarchy and democracy. > >This is a battle for the hearts and minds of the American people. They need >to know the truth about what is happening to American agriculture and why. > >We need to tell them about our new kind of agriculture that will sustain >people, not just the industry of agriculture. And we need to give them >common-sense reasons why the old system cannot be sustained and why >sustainable agriculture is not a luxury but an absolute necessity. > >The current economic system rewards the exploitation of natural resources >and people, and the visible, tangible epitome of that system is the large, >publicly owned corporation. The corporation is the ultimate "economic man" >— motivated always and only by its own short-term self-interest, driven >solely by an insatiable need for profit and growth. This enemy should be >given no quarter. > >An industrial agriculture might be able to meet our food and fiber needs of >today and maybe for another 50 years, but it is degrading and destroying >the very resources — soil, water and energy — upon which it depends. An >industrial agriculture is said to be efficient, but not when one counts the >enormous costs it imposes on the environment and on people in rural >communities. > >Environmentally sound and socially responsible farming operations already >exist — many of them as economically efficient as their industrial >counterparts. We need to tell the general public that sustainability is not >only possible but also logical and, ultimately, essential. > >The industrial agricultural system might have been logical in the past, but >it no longer makes sense. America’s version of industrial agriculture is >very similar to the agriculture that failed miserably in the old Soviet >Union — bringing down the country in the process. Some claim that our >system relies on free markets. But we are turning agriculture over to >multinational corporations that control everything from genetic seed stocks >to supermarket shelves, eliminating all the free markets in between. >Instead of free markets, we have something more like central planning — >little different in principle from the old Soviet industrial agriculture. >And the outcome will be the same: failure. > >Farmers themselves are the architects of the new sustainable agriculture. >They are the explorers, the colonists and the revolutionaries. Like the >revolutionaries who created a democracy, they will confront hardship, >frustration and failure. Ultimately, they will succeed. > >Never doubt the cause is just. Industrial corporate agriculture is not good >for people and thus is not sustainable. It’s just common sense. Agriculture >ultimately must sustain a desirable quality of life for people — on farms, >in rural communities and in the cities. It’s just common sense. Human >civilization cannot be sustained without a sustainable agriculture. > >It’s time for a new revolution in American agriculture. It’s just plain >common sense. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >John Ikerd is a professor of agricultural economics at MU. This paper was >presented in the opening session of the March 24 "Sustaining People Through >Agriculture" conference in Columbia. > >-- > > ******************************* > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 19:06:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA12464 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:06:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA28363; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:50:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27939 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:47:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (cust56.nrvmax6.tor1.netrover.com [206.186.85.56] (may be forged)) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA16179 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:51:01 -0500 (EST) From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: Re: Traitor Technology Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:55:58 -0500 Message-ID: <01be7b08$db9ce540$7515d1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 473 Dear Michael : I'm not the author, but as it shows in brackets after Traitor,[no doubt a coined term, it refers, I assume to the characteristics of negative traits in the "seed". ...........manfred -----Original Message----- From: Michael Roboz To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 6:36 PM Subject: Re: Traitor Technology >Dear Manfred, > > I understand Terminator. What is Traitor? M. >-----Original Message----- >From: manfred palmer >To: bdnow >Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 3:07 PM >Subject: Fw: Traitor Technology > > >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Jeffrey Newman >>To: Rochelle Eisen ; Doug Cooper >>; Manfred Palmer >>Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 1:14 PM >>Subject: Traitor Technology >> >> >>>---------- >>>From: annie oakley >>>To: ban@tao.ca >>>Subject: BAN: Fwd: traitor technology >>>Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 11:33 PM >>> >>> >>>Rural Advancement Foundation International (RAFI) >>>News Release >>>29 March 1999 >>>http://www.rafi.org >>> >>> >>> ** TRAITOR TECHNOLOGY: "Damaged Goods" from the Gene Giants ** >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------- >>> New report from RAFI details over 2 dozen "Terminator II" >>> patents that link suicide seeds to proprietary chemicals, >>> genetically-weakened plants, and the patented power to >>> make genetically-inviable plants rise from the dead. >>> --------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>Beyond the prognostications of even its most pessimistic critics, >>>Terminator science is snowballing into the corporate profit centre of the >>>next decade and beyond. And, if the major seed and agrochemical >>>multinationals have their way, Terminator and Traitor (negative trait) >>>technologies will come on the heels of the new millennium to a farm near >>>you. RAFI's Executive Director Pat Mooney declares, "With this report and >>>our previous work on the Terminator, RAFI is sounding the alarm that> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 21:50:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14901 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:50:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA20738; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:35:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20406 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:33:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.143.52] (max7-7.stc.net [208.210.134.7]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA05344 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:36:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199903301649.LAA23670@envirolink.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 20:29:06 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD compost in arid climate Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 474 >Thanks for looking in on this. >Ed's method, as you describe it, is exactly how I've created soil around >here for the last 9 years. I developed soil on my little property as a >result of a succession of piles of whatever materials I could get my hands >on, and most of what I grew was used to feed those piles, not human bodies! >This is the first year I've really had enough soil everywhere to grow a real >quantity of "human" food. >I used a friend's shredder one year, but couldn't stand the noise. Our basic >method was to pile things up (material, handfuls of soil, pinch of finished >compost), then have the kids walk around on the piles before we watered >them. The next year, we would plant a few veggies in the resulting bed, then >the next year, trees, shrubs, and perennial flowers and herbs. > >Last fall, my preps went into a pile that took all spring and summer to >build to a sufficient mass, so I could water as I went. >My query on the water content of the compost was due to this being my first >classic one-ton BD pile, also my first use of new, wet manure. I've never >been so "technical" in my approach before this, but I've never grown food >for humans on the scale we plan this year. > >Thanks again, even though I'm a little jealous of your 70" rainfall! Dear Pam, Please, no jealousy. 70 inches of rainfall annually just means I have to work harder. What's the benefit of that? Getting to slog around in mud a goodly part of the year? I could be jealous of your drier conditions. And incidentally, last summer when it was very dry here I got the best crops ever. Due to my BD methods with tilth down nearly two feet and loose soil that fed the underground moisture back up I had corn that filled out to the tips, a bumper crop of cukes and squash, and lots of cayenne peppers to make Louisiana hot sauce out of. Musta sold well over $2,000 worth of hot sauce alone. Put up (and sold out) 43 cases of dill pickles at $8 per quart, which comes to around $4,000. From October on, though, we've been inundated, and the barn yard is a real mess. I'd probably enjoy drier conditions. Glad to hear you've found soil building possible. I was very impressed with what Ed Mendoza did in Arizona, which may be drier than where you are, though not too much. I gather you're in Southern Idaho, which is pretty desert like. All my relatives came from Northern Idaho around Sandpoint (which I hear has a Waldorf school), which is pretty much like here, though not quite so far south or so wet. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 21:50:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14910 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:50:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA20883; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:36:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20450 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:34:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.143.52] (max7-7.stc.net [208.210.134.7]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA05443 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:37:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BE7ABF.FDF3AD20@FLYLO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 20:47:11 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: dropping like flies & mycorrhizal fungi & Melissa Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 475 >BD Now mems seem to be bailing out like ... flies? Hope it's just Spring's >busy season. > >Oh well, more info for the rest of us! Question: >I (hooray, it's running) finally got the tractor up and motivated enough to >mow some acreage. Ordered seed for hay, and am thinking it gets SO DRY >midsummer in Texas, about inoculating the seed with mycorrhizal fungi. > Supposed to be great for nutrient - attracting and moisture - attracting >qualities. Actually, you don't 'inoculate' the seed, the seed is merely a >carrier for the spores to get to the soil. >My banana pup had it as a baby and you should see it now! > >Has anyone had experience with this type of fungal inoculant? >A bit pricey, $75 for a 3 lb tub which should do 3 acres. I have 8 - 12 >acres (depending on how thick/thin I decide the seed must go out) to plant >to hay this season. Thinking about just doing one container's worth and >marking it off to see the differences. But, would like input from someone >who has actually used the stuff on commercial scale first. >thanks >martha > >Oh, and a PS: If anyone finds Melissa in their computer system, go here: >ByeMelissa.doc is a free download from the ZDNet Software Library. >This program scans for the virus and fixes problems it caused. >http://chkpt.zdnet.com/chkpt/zdna990330/hotfiles.zdnet.com/cgi-bin/texis >/swlib/hotfiles/info.html?fcode=000YPG&b=product Martha, Never knew there was mycorrhizal innoculant available. I always used ants, which know how to culture and spread mychorrhizae. Ants do a perfectly wizard job at low cost, but I guess there's something to be said for doing it without them. I have noticed that mychorrizal development is greatest on well aerated roots, which is one of the things ants ensure. You probably want to see that the soil is loose where you use this product. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 21:51:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA15030 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:51:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA20990; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:37:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20473 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:34:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.143.52] (max7-7.stc.net [208.210.134.7]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA05468 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:37:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000f01be7afa$b162afc0$984b2e9c@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 20:54:12 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Valerian culture Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 476 >Dear Friends, > >I have been coddling a Valerian plant throughout the winter in my kitchen >window sill. It has begrudgingly survived, giving me some root trimmings, >(whose strength I underestimated - once!) and I'm thinking it is time to put >it outside where it will be much happier. Any thoughts on best placement? >Soil preference? Sunny, sandy, moist, shady, near the compost heap? Should I >take the plant outside & try asking it? Any Valerian experts feel free to >jump in here... > > I have tried to develop a relationship with this plant, so that I could >recognize it on the farm (I'm sure its here somewhere:-)) and because I >think the farm needs 507. (Phosphorus seems low here, or unavailable...I >have found every other prep plant here...except Valerian). And perhaps if I >become acquainted with it, acknowledge it...ok - WORSHIP it, maybe this will >help with the phosphorus situation... > >This plant is my pal, so where should I put it? > >Julie Dear Julie, Another name for valerian is garden Heliotrope. (helio = Sun, trope = attracted to) It likes the SUN. It is a northern weed that propagates by root divisions, so it can take over a field under the right conditions. But it likes a field that gets good summer sun. Down here in Georgia the sun gets too strong for it and it goes dormant in summer. But you ought to have no trouble in Wisconsin. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 21:52:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA15046 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:52:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21126; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:38:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20527 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:34:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.143.52] (max7-7.stc.net [208.210.134.7]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA05508 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:37:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3e2481a2.3701589e@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:06:43 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: burying horns/re Many hands of government Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 477 >Could anyone explain why the horns need to be buried in fertile soil? I've >been told for viticulture that you shouldn't bury them in vineyards as the >soil there generally isn't fertile enough. > >Thanks for the postings on the latest on National Standards.What is decided >will affect us here in the UK and I have been searching websites wondering >why I can't find out what's happening. > >Thank you BDNow! > >Hilary Wright >London Dear Hilary, In general fertile soil with good clay-humus colloids is a life energy attractant and accumulator. Since the horns only focus what life energy comes their way it is important that they be buried where the life forces are richly abundant. Years ago I started a barrel compost and horn pit area (located by dowsing) up in the forest above the rest of my farm and at first I thought the soil there was a bit devoid of life. You know, forest soil tends to be sucked dry of life, which generally moves upward into the trees. But the clay in this location soon got rich and crumbly, and I've gotten exceptional results there. The life forces are really rich there. So the basic rule is bury your preps where the life forces are really rich. I just now checked it out and the location I'm burying preps is at a junction of four energy lines (exceptional). This makes for lots of energy there. The results show this. So set all other rules aside, and look for a place where the life forces are really rich. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 22:01:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA15182 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:01:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA22178; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:48:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22052 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:47:01 -0500 (EST) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hSDSa21956 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:48:30 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:48:30 EST To: BDnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: re: Hugh's hot sauce recipe (was compost in arid climate) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 478 Hugh, Care to share your cayenne sauce recipe? The big one by the gallon. Love to know it! Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Mar 30 22:16:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA15397 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:16:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA23477; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:00:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from dogbert.ipa.net (dogbert.ipa.net [205.218.170.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA23341 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:58:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from steved.ipa.net (pool-195.faye.ipa.net [206.27.222.195]) by dogbert.ipa.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA11474 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:02:01 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <37018F26.6133@ipa.net> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 20:57:42 -0600 From: Steve Diver Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Seed Balls, follow-up Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 479 As a follow-up to the "Seeds, Phenology, Sequence of Bloom: Seed Balls" post in March, it turns out there is a company that makes and sells seed balls. Thus, if you need a quick fix and there's no time to mix your own, this company's product may come in handy. Earthseeds http://www.earthseed.com The wildflower and native seeds they incorporate into the seed balls are regionalized for different parts of the country. These for-sale seed balls might be the thing your local city council or school board would fund for roadside beautification and ecological restoration. Again, Jim Bones' "Light Writings" web page is a wondeful site with plenty of instructions on how to make your on own seed balls. Jim Bones' "Light Writings" web page: http://www.seedballs.com/ Seed Balls: A New Tool for Revegetation (Table of Contents) http://www.seedballs.com/tblcon.html A couple people wrote back and said they will be playing around with seed balls this year. Steve Diver From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 31 00:04:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA17087 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:04:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04615; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 23:47:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from dogbert.ipa.net (dogbert.ipa.net [205.218.170.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA04425 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 23:45:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from steved.ipa.net (pool-195.faye.ipa.net [206.27.222.195]) by dogbert.ipa.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA25449 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:48:17 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3701A80F.79EA@ipa.net> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:43:59 -0600 From: Steve Diver Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: BD Compost, Worms, Energy Fields References: <32f48367.36f25803@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 480 Back on March 19th, Chris Shade posted some notes on the effects of earthworm injestion on availability of phosphorus. > I just was looking at a paper where scientists looked at the effects of > earthworm ingestion on pjosphate rack availability. They concluded that the > effect, greater P availability, was due to the intimate incorporation of the > the rock particles with the soil. They showed electron micrographs of the > rock particles int0 the soil vs. passed throught he gut of the worm. The > seived particles had air all around them, whereas the "wormed" particles were > completely enveloped by highly organic soil goo. Biochemically this will coat > the particles with soil bacteria an chelating organic acids to make available > many mineral goodies. Chris Shade then added the following notes about the alchemy of worms: > BUT, more interestingly, energetically I see the worm > alchemy of uniting Positive and negative. Granite, basalt, rock phos, all > paramagnetic, or positive, elements united with the diamagnetic, or negative, > humus elements to make the soil hum with the elixir. Something that > machanical mixing was not able to do, but rather left the two separate. But > maybe I am just spewing. > > Chris Shade > Aspiring Mad Scientist Here, I draw your attention to the passage on positive-negative alchemy that Chris refers to... energetic fields created from the combination of paramagnetic minerals with diamagnetic humus. In the Pfeiffer literature circa 1940-50s we can read about mineralized compost; i.e., compost windrows treated with rock minerals to provide an enhanced mineral source when applied to the agricultural fields. It is also well established that organic acids generated during the composting process help solubilize the rock minerals and make elements like phosphorus more widely available than what is in the original parent form of rock phosphate. Putting rock phosphate through a compost pile can make the phosphorus availability equivalent to single super phosphate, according to research a few years back. Mineralized compost does not just exist in the old Pfeiffer literature, either. I've known several organic farms that amended composts with rock-based fertilizers according to the needs of soils on the farm. And in addition, basaltic rock dusts are commonly used at specified rates in modern day Luekbe-based composting systems, to provide a source of micronutrients. There is also growing interest in micronutrient-enhanced composts as catalysts for critical soil enzyme systems which may increase pest immunity or enhance crop nutrition. Though additions of rock dusts and rock phosphate to compost piles pre-date the books and lectures by Phil Callahan on paramagnetism, now that we have this knowledge I think it opens a window of discovery with respect to mineralized composts as a energy field input to soils as well as a stabilized source of humus. Another way to appreciate the significance of this mineral-biological energy field is to think about the way a battery operates.... with current flowing from the positive post the negative post, or vice versa. By enhancing the "battery effect" in soils and composts by paying attention to both rock dust applications as well as humus management practices like composting and green manuring, we are taking care of business with respect to good agronomic husbandry.... but we are also increasing energetic fields on the farm. Carey Reams, the man who modern day crop advisors like Dan Skow and Arden Anderson and others studied under, is perhaps best known for his development of the Reams Biological Theory of Ionization. The RBTI says that plants live off of the energy of ionization as nutrients flow through the plant, and not just from the chemical contribution of the elements themselves. In other words, Reams understood that energy fields and energy flows and magnetism in soils and crops play a critical role in agriculture. Perhaps there are resident physicist-types on the BD-Now list, here I am thinking of people like Guy McCarthy or Hugh Lovel, who can shed more light on this subject. Finally, this brings to mind the concept that distinct yet intertwined energy fields exist in composts: With biodynamic preparations, we have one type of compost energy. [E.g., the BD preps add certain frequencies that energize the compost and radiate outwards onto the farm] With mineralized compost, we have a second type of compost energy. [E.g., paramagnetic-diamagnetic energy fields similar to the battery effect] With microbials in compost, we have a third type of compost energy. [E.g., microvita theory from India says that the sum total of all populations of living microorganisms create an energy field similar to prana or life energy. In other words, there is a separate energy field created by the microbes themselves un-related to BD preps, which may or may not be used in compost preparation] Regards ya'll, Steve Diver From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 31 00:34:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA17498 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:34:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08382; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:20:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from alternatives.com ([204.244.88.165]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08213 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:18:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from georgiah (unverified [204.244.111.141]) by alternatives.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:21:33 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990330211627.00846100@mail.alternatives.com> X-Sender: conrad@mail.alternatives.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:16:27 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Conrad Subject: Re: Seed Balls, follow-up In-Reply-To: <37018F26.6133@ipa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 481 I've made up some seedballs just recently and would like to share the experience. It's a fun and easy way of getting seeds out there and with biodynamics it would be another way of getting the preps out. I made mine from some dry, mature biodynamic cow manure I picked from a pasture. It doesn't take much at all. I crushed the manure into a powder, and mixed in some adobe clay powder, about 3 parts manure to 5 parts clay. I purchased the clay as a big 25 lb block from a community centre for about 20 bucks and dried it in my kitchen oven. Then, I added about 1 part of mixed flower seeds and stirred the whole thing well. Finally I added some rainwater, about 1 part and rolled it all into 1/2 inch balls and set them out to dry, only took a day in a warm spot. I am just waiting for more rain now and we shall see how things sprout. Conrad von Zirkwitz you wrote: >As a follow-up to the "Seeds, Phenology, Sequence of Bloom: Seed Balls" >post in March, it turns out there is a company that makes and sells >seed balls. Thus, if you need a quick fix and there's no time to mix >your own, this company's product may come in handy. > >Earthseeds >http://www.earthseed.com > >The wildflower and native seeds they incorporate into the >seed balls are regionalized for different parts of the country. > >These for-sale seed balls might be the thing your local >city council or school board would fund for roadside >beautification and ecological restoration. > >Again, Jim Bones' "Light Writings" web page is >a wondeful site with plenty of instructions on >how to make your on own seed balls. > >Jim Bones' "Light Writings" web page: >http://www.seedballs.com/ > >Seed Balls: A New Tool for Revegetation (Table of Contents) >http://www.seedballs.com/tblcon.html > >A couple people wrote back and said they will be playing >around with seed balls this year. > >Steve Diver > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 31 01:50:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA18355 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 01:50:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA14548; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 01:38:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from fep8.mail.ozemail.net (fep8.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.102]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA14386 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 01:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (slmlb30p37.ozemail.com.au [203.108.83.165]) by fep8.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA08689 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:38:38 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <015f01be7b40$fb1c1e80$a5536ccb@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: Subject: Re: Vietnam Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:37:41 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 482 Hi to all BD Friends Home again (Melbourne Australia) from backpacking in Vietnam. Saw truckloads & truckloads of NPK on the road and in every small village there seemed to be a depot for it. Also observed many rice farmers spraying their crops using backpacks - I'm sure that it wasn't 500! As very little English is spoken and I don't speak Vietnamese (yet) was not able to communicate - lots of smiling though! email me directly for questions or interest re Vietnam. Warm regards Gwenda From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 31 09:12:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22186 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:12:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11040; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:00:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10718 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 08:57:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d143.infoserve.net [199.175.157.143]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA15361 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:03:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <005601be7b7e$e7712400$8f9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: OFF/ GM ousted in UK Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:00:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 483 Many thanks to Sybil from the Uk, who asked me to forward this to the list. M. > > >What happens in US regarding GM foods, affects the entire world! > >Dear Sybil, It may be of interest to you to hear that Marks & Spencer >one of the UK major retailers has an announcement in all its stores in >UK this week advising all customers that they have withdrawn all >foodstuffs containing gm ingredients from their stores and at the same >time there is an announcement in the national press that the Co- >operative Wholesale Society ( the UK's biggest farmer ) has pulled out >of the Government backed trials of gm crops which is seen as a severe >blow to the biotech industry. There has also been the withdrawal of >proceedings against two eco warriors who destroyed a gm crop in the >South of England last year being grown on behalf of the Ministry of >Agriculture. They were said to have caused damage to the tune of >£600'000 but the case was dropped they think because of the "adverse" >publicity it might have given to the possible effects of such foodstuffs >and also because of the potential damage it could have caused to one of >the UK's biggest organic farms only three hundred yards away. Love and >Light. Julian >-- >Julian > >Michael Roboz wrote: > >> Yes., what happens in the US can affect us also. Not only does GE products >> try to become law here, but,. also we import a lot of US food up here. >> When they were going to classify what is organic down in the US by the >> FDA, I did my bit and faxed them what I thought about their bright ideas. M. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ken, Jean Huffman >> To: bdnow@envirolink.org >> Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 5:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Urgent Action Needed - Biased panel to set US biotech >> policy, laws] >> >> >Is this applicable to Canadians ie can we help? >> >Jean >> > >> > > > > >-- >mailto:sybil@tgl.net >^~^ ^~^ ^~^ ^~^ ^~^ ^~^ ^~^ ^~^ ^~^ ^~^ ^~^ >We came to this system to change: > fear and hate into Love, > slavery into Sovereignty > and blame into Responsibility. >We got caught up in the dream > and fell asleep in the illusion. >We are waking up now > and owning our Creations > and powers of Self-Mastery. >*THAT* is the Enlightenment. > --Sybil Soaring Eagle > Summer 1996 >^~^ ^~^ ^~^ ^~^ ^~^ ^~^ ^~^ ^~^ ^~^ ^~^ ^~^ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 31 10:59:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24313 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:59:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24694; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:47:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24438 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:45:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.157] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.157]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0F9G0035PTUTB3@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:32:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:39:41 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: BD compost in arid climate In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <199903251802.NAA24212@envirolink.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id KAA24456 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 484 >Dear Pam and Guillermo, > >Visiting Ed Mendoza, the farmer at the Gila River Indian Community in >southern Arizona, last January I was impressed at his patient approach to >composting and mulching in that low moisture environment. One of the things >he did was stacking crop residues and other compostables on beds and taking >a full year or more breaking them down, and what a wonderfully rich ecology >this created, not only with flora (plants) but with fauna (animals). He >didn't have shredders or anything high tech except his drip irrigation >system. So he stacked and let things get brittle, brittle and walked on >them to break them up (and break them down). It was artfully done with a >wonderful insight into nature that I can't describe but can only admire. I >don't know much about arid climates, but Ed understood them from his whole >life experience and believe me it gave "fallow ground" a meaning it could >never have in my 70 inch rainfall environment. > >I think one of the most insightful things about Ed's method of--not sheet >composting, but bed/mulch composting--was it took otherwise arid land that >had too little organic matter and gave it a blanket that drew in life >energy, held on to it and built it up over much larger areas than if you >stacked everything in a pile and got a rapid decomposition. If you poked >into his coarse, heavy bed mulches after they'd been there a year you >stirred into a teeming community of all kinds of things scurrying here and >there. I was really impressed. He was bringing land to life in situ (right >there in place) so that when the fallow year was over and you forked >everything up and grew a drip irrigated crop you had wonderful fertility. >It was an education just seeing it. It was nothing like the piles we build >in wet climates with fast decomposition and all the work of hauling and >spreading. He took the organic matter and used it to generate dynamic life >activity. Maybe he thought of it as doing the sensible, easy thing whith >what he had, no big thing, but woe is on this earth because such things are >NOT usually done. > >My hat's off to this guy, but he doesn't have e-mail so far as I know. You >might call him at 520 568 3509 (home, evenings). I hope he doesn't mind, >and he speaks fluent Spanish. He is very special and I don't know if he >realizes how much insight his small acreage showed me he had, but let me >tell you this guy had some good ideas about bringing arid land to life. > >Best, >Hugh Lovel Thanks Hugh for this reply: Although I get about 30 in of rainfall, most of it pours down in a few storms during a three month period. A month after the rainy season there is practically no residual moisture is the soil. This is far more evident in the cultivated and pasture land than in the wild. In the coffee and fruit trees areas of my place, I just leave whatever fall to the ground there (before everything was kept well swept.) That alone has improved the quality of the soil and the health of the plants. You can even tell the difference between the pathways and the untraveled areas. I some areas of my place where I had bare soil, I am also doing sheet composting using a small layer of cow manure and a heavy layer of rice-straw mulch. The results are great, you can see the improvement in a very short period. Here I water from time to time and I am planning to mulch some more during the rainny season to avoid the newly created soil from running off. To keep moisture and increase life in the soil, in collaboration with a local ag technical high school, we are preparing a demonstration pasture area using the Keyline methodology, (using a modified chisel plow, deep rooting crops, worms and spraying the preps). This methodology I think is very promising for the recuperation of this area. Althought it will take three years to complete, I hope to see some results a couple of months after the rainy season is over (it ends in september). I believe nothing is more important to do, in this semi arid climates, than to recuperate the soil's ability to hold moisture, and that can only be done by increasing it's capacity to hold life. Again many thanks for your input and warm regards. ps I would also like to try out your sauce recipe. Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 31 11:10:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24703 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:10:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26825; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:59:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26328 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:56:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from laquerencia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D624X43Y; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:54:31 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:55:39 -0600 Subject: learning to dowse Message-ID: <19990331.095539.15406.4.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,5,7-11,13-18 From: Deborah M Byron Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 485 Hugh Lovel wrote: So the basic rule is bury your preps where the life forces are really rich. I just now >checked it out and the location I'm burying preps is at a junction of four >energy lines (exceptional). This makes for lots of energy there. The results >show this. So set all other rules aside, and look for a place where the >life forces are really rich. Hugh, could you tell us how you learned to dowse and if there is a particular book or person you'd recommend as a guide? Regards, Deborah Byron LaQuerencia@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 31 15:02:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA00699 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:02:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03785; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:51:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA03294 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:47:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d158.infoserve.net [199.175.157.158]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA02868 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:53:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000901be7baf$d527c840$9e9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: more Spring signals in Vancouver area Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:51:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE7B6C.C5E8B800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 486 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE7B6C.C5E8B800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First grass mowing today First planting of cool tolerant vegies flock of flickers (type of woodpecker) looks like 2 days of sun in a row! M. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE7B6C.C5E8B800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
First grass mowing = today
First planting of cool tolerant=20 vegies
flock of flickers (type of=20 woodpecker)
looks like 2 days of sun in a = row!
M.
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE7B6C.C5E8B800-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 31 16:25:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA02737 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:25:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA14706; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:12:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14465 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (pm3-3-149.blueriver.mwt.net [156.46.251.149]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA13750 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:12:03 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <007501be7bba$f7731340$95fb2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie M." To: "BD NOW LIST" Subject: OFF: Biased NAS Panel Tied to Biotech Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:10:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 487 Hi All, I know these GE posts are flooding the lists, its Spring busy time, but the action required here is minimal...instructions below for making a statement - its a no-brainer & could make a huge difference. Thanks for the moment it will take you... CALL FOR COMMENTS ON GENETIC ENGINEERING PANEL, APRIL 7 DEADLINE! The National Academy of Sciences (NAS) has convened a special committee to review the science and US regulation of genetically engineered (GE) crops. Greenpeace is urgently calling for your comments to NAS, to urge that the panel membership is expanded to include a broader spectrum of concerned parties. As currently composed, several of the 13 members of the panel have ties to the biotech industry and/or work primarily in biotechnology. This panel must not be biased if it is to produce a scientifically useful report. The goal of the Committee is to assess the environmental and the social and economic impacts of GE crops. Yet none of the Committee members are scientists from the growing pool of those who are broadly concerned about the potentially irreversible adverse effects of genetically engineered plants. There are also no Committee members with a background in the consumer, organic and family farm, or environmental concerns regarding genetic engineering. Several experts in these areas, from academia or the public interest community, should be added as Committee members. The NAS Committee is scheduled to hold its first meeting on April 8. THERE ARE JUST A FEW DAYS LEFT FOR PUBLIC COMMENTS - PLEASE ACT TODAY! NAS has a form for comments at http://www4.nas.edu/webfdbk.nsf/Committee+Feedback?OpenForm Enter the "Project Information Number: BANR-0-99-02-A. Enter the Subject, "Genetic Engineering Committee." Enter your e-mail address. Then simply copy the message below, with your name, and paste it into their form. You can also call NAS at 202-334-2396. Jennifer Kuzna, at this number, should take your comments. Simply tell her that you are concerned about a potential bias of the Committee on Genetically Modified Crops Containing Pesticide Genes, and you expect NAS to add Committee members, including critical scientists, family farm advocates, consumer representatives and environmentalists. If you'd like to send them your comments, use the sample letter on the other side and send to: National Academy of Sciences 2101 Constitution Ave., NW Washington, DC 20418 (202) 334-2000 ATTENTION: MIKE PHILLIPS RE: Committee on Genetically Modified Crops Containing Pesticide Genes SAMPLE LETTER To the National Academy of Sciences, I am writing to urge that the Committee on Genetically Modified Crops Containing Pesticide Genes be reconstituted to include a broader representation of scientists and others who have the background and expertise needed to fully assess the impact of these crops. If the Committee is to fairly and impartially address the potential risks and benefits of this technology, and the social and economic impacts (as stated in the Committee's charge), a more inclusive group of panelists must be assembled. Numerous scientists from academia and the public interest community have written extensively of their concerns regarding these modified crops. Furthermore, organic and family farmers, consumers, and environmentalists have vital expertise in the social and economic concerns regarding genetic engineering. The Committee membership includes several scientists who work in genetic engineering, and non-scientists who have worked for the genetic engineering industry. There are no members from the wide pool of agroecologists, biologists, or other scientists who have critical concerns about the technology, and no members from the consumer, farm, or environmental communities. If these omissions are not corrected by adding several such critical voices, the NAS will appear to be taking sides in this debate, rather than contributing worthwhile scientific guidance. I am extremely concerned about the potential impact of this technology on our food and environment, and I do not wish to see NAS lose credibility in this matter. I look forward to hearing of your action on these concerns. Thank you for your prompt attention. Sincerely, (your name) BACKGROUND: The NAS Committee will specifically focus on genetically engineered "plant pesticides." These crops are altered to produce an insecticide called Bacillus thuringiensis, or Bt. Biotech firms like Monsanto claim that their Bt crops will enable farmers to use fewer chemicals while saving their crops from pest infestations. But the advent of Bt crops - which make up over 25% of the nearly 70 million acres of genetically engineered crops growing worldwide - have caused a firestorm of scientific concern. There is widespread agreement that these crops will rapidly lead to large populations of insects that are resistant to the Bt toxin. There are also recent studies on the adverse impact these crops may have on insects that are beneficial and essential to a balanced farm system, and to the vital soil ecology necessary for sustainable farming. Many scientists are concerned that the Environmental Protection Agency is not acting assertively to protect the environment. But the NAS panel appears to be stacked with scientists and others who are likely to be industry-friendly. One academic (who is not a Committee member) has even suggested that the Committee should conclude that the biotech industry is too TIGHTLY regulated! The threat of Bt crops to organic, sustainable farming must be taken seriously. The irreversible risks to the environment and to our food must be accounted for. If NAS fails to include critical voices in its Committee its process will be tainted from the start. Charles Margulis Greenpeace Genetic Engineering Campaign 736 West End Avenue #8D New York, NY 10025 (212) 865-5645 fax (212) 865-4128 charles.margulis@dialb.greenpeace.org From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 31 17:39:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA04296 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:39:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23180; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:20:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.cyberhighway.net (smtp1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.33]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22681 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:17:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903312217.RAA22681@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 29299 invoked from network); 31 Mar 1999 15:20:27 -0700 Received: from ts2-05.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO ?209.161.18.156?) (209.161.18.156) by smtp1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 31 Mar 1999 15:20:27 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:18:14 -0700 Subject: Before last frost From: "Pam DeTray" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 488 I would like to place preps in my compost this evening, and also stir & spray BC. I'm also thinking of applying 500 during the next few weeks. Our last frost normally comes at the end of May, although the weather is mostly nice before then. Is there any problem with proceeding as I wish? Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------- Pam DeTray psdetray@cyberhighway.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 31 17:47:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA04490 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25107; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:35:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24966 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:34:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (modem203.digisys.net [205.218.31.76]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA01329 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:37:39 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3702A46A.4338BDA0@digisys.net> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:40:42 -0700 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" Subject: [OFF: FW: Check out astrology and gardening, cosmic garden etc] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------CDD87ADD6AB21A325D04620D" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 489 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CDD87ADD6AB21A325D04620D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------CDD87ADD6AB21A325D04620D Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from islander.whidbey.net (root@islander.whidbey.net [204.57.140.1]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA22955 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:34:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from [204.94.54.51] (sno51.whidbey.net [204.94.54.51]) by islander.whidbey.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03843; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:33:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903311933.LAA03843@islander.whidbey.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:09:14 -0800 Subject: FW: Check out astrology and gardening, cosmic garden etc From: "sally harrington" To: whiteowl@digisys.net, debriva@aol.com, jbkendler@aol.com Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ---------- Subject: Check out astrology and gardening, cosmic garden etc Date: Tue, Mar 30, 1999, 8:44 PM Hi Gardeners; Since I can't garden anymore, new house space, place and health restrictions - I didn't get into the talk. Yet I was surprised that nobody has mentioned the 'Panplanet' site, where Linda Reid's Canopus college is - along with many 'Oz' Astrologers. The below address starts a page with an article by Scott Withers on plant correspondences to planets etc. but it goes on into all other garden subjects. I just kept thinking, surely someone will mention it in the next post. Enjoy! Click here: astrology and gardening, cosmic garden,astrology, planting by the moon, biodynamic astrology,serious astrology, zo or http://www.panplanet.com J --------------CDD87ADD6AB21A325D04620D-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 31 21:55:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA09269 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:55:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA01463; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:40:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA01287 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:39:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.143.52] (max6-3.stc.net [208.210.133.131]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA14935 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:42:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:11:49 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: re: Hugh's hot sauce recipe (was compost in arid climate) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 490 >Hugh, > > Care to share your cayenne sauce recipe? The big one by the gallon. Love to >know it! > >Patrick Patrick, First of all the "secret" is growing BD cayennes. With these cayyenes I cut them open and take out the seeds. I save seeds from ideal peppers, and I can take a nip to determine the degree of hotness so that I breed the desired degree of hot peppers. A hint here, hot cayennes are not so hot at the tip of the pepper, but take a sliver from up at the hip of the pepper and look out. I cold pack these gutted peppers in quart jars (tightly and with gloves on). Meanwhile I'm simmering my pickling brine. The brine is made (in a glass pot) from three quarts mountain spring water, two quarts of apple cider vinegar, one packed cup of unrefined sea salt and a quarter cup of honey. There's a real medicinal effect from using apple cider vinegar and honey. I spice this brine with a handful of cracked or crushed garlic, a handful of sliced fresh ginger, a handful of either fresh or dried dill and a handful of Frontier's pickling spice mix (which contains cinnamon, allspice, coriander, dill, bay, cayenne, mustard seed, etc.). I also get my water bath canner boiling on the stove. When I get enough jars cold packed to fill the canner I ladle hot brine over the peppers, turn the lids down almost tight and water bath them for 18 minutes. To make the hot sauce I use the blender and do about half a quart jar at a time. For every quart I use all the pepper meats and about two thirds to three quarters of the brine along with three heaping tablespoons of unrefined sea salt. After blending for 5 to 10 minutes I strain into a large pot. When I have enough to bottle I use a horse syringe without the needle, suck the hot sauce up and inject it into bottles. I like using the traditional hot sauce bottles since you get a well metered dose when you want hot sauce, but since I like my own sauce and use little of any other I often have to buy out the grocery store at 35 cents a bottle when I want bottles. I don't know how they make it so cheap, but I have to charge $5 a bottle to come out on it. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 31 22:15:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA09522 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:15:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA04376; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:01:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA04313 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:01:04 -0500 (EST) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hITZa14858 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:02:05 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <4d702186.3702e1ad@aol.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:02:05 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Hugh's hot sauce recipe (was compost in arid climate) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 491 Hugh, WOW! Can't wait to try it. I was schooled in New Mexico making red sauce and green sauce. Looking forward to another spicy experience. I'll have to get those cayenne pepper seeds out of storage. Quite a mix of herbs and spices. Have you tried Epazote in red sauce? It's different and people always remark "what's that taste?" Thanks, Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 31 22:32:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA09719 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:32:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA06854; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:19:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06692 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:18:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from junkpile - 208.253.68.104 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:21:33 -0800 From: "Mary Manson" To: Subject: Re: OFF/ GM ousted in UK Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:33:21 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <00c483321030149CPIMSSMTPU01@email.msn.com> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 492 >>Dear Sybil, It may be of interest to you to hear that Marks & Spencer >>one of the UK major retailers has an announcement in all its stores in >>UK this week advising all customers that they have withdrawn all >>foodstuffs containing gm ingredients from their stores and at the same >>time there is an announcement in the national press that the Co- >>operative Wholesale Society ( the UK's biggest farmer ) has pulled out >>of the Government backed trials of gm crops which is seen as a severe >>blow to the biotech industry. There has also been the withdrawal of >>proceedings against two eco warriors who destroyed a gm crop in the >>South of England last year being grown on behalf of the Ministry of >>Agriculture. They were said to have caused damage to the tune of >>£600'000 but the case was dropped they think because of the "adverse" >>publicity it might have given to the possible effects of such foodstuffs >>and also because of the potential damage it could have caused to one of >>the UK's biggest organic farms only three hundred yards away. Love and >>Light. Julian !!!!! Wow !!!!! Will Marks & Spencer, and the Cooperative Wholesale Society, accept hugs since they can't be bought ?? Please email mine to them, and include Sybil, and you, who brought us the good news ..... Toni tonihawr@email.msn.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 31 22:32:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA09745 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA06927; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:20:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06732 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:19:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.156] (pm3shep3-163-148.intrepid.net [209.190.163.148]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00121 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:22:22 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:25:05 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Coffee Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 493 No beans yet, Michael! The invoice is here, but no beans yet! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Mar 31 22:39:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA09873 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:39:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA07679; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:26:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAB07407 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:24:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.156] (pm3shep3-163-148.intrepid.net [209.190.163.148]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA01048 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:27:21 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:28:40 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: Coffee Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 494 >No beans yet, Michael! > >The invoice is here, but no beans yet! This post (sent to the wrong address), of course, should make it perfectly clear how badly I need them!! -Allan :-) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 00:24:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11628 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:23:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA09014; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:11:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07608 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:07:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.143.52] (max15-48.stc.net [208.210.138.48]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA01771 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:11:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:08:51 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Dowsing/Joey Korn's Web Site Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 495 Here's a forwarded message about dowsing Dear Fellow Dowsers and Spiritual Seekers, If you haven't visited my new Web site yet, I'd be honored for you to do so. If you have visited but haven't done so lately, I have new pages up. My Web site is based on what I call "tools for empowerment," tools that we each have at our disposal to help us grow spiritually. You can find it at http://dowsers.com. What's new? * Learn how to move underground streams of water with the Power of Prayer * Learn about my Advanced Workshops * A new links page, linking other related Web sites * Walter Russell books are now on sale, priced lower than ever, including the Home Study Course I have pages dedicated to: * Dowsing: A Path to Enlightenment * Relaxation & Meditation * Walter Russell, one of the most enlightened beings ever to walk the planet * Dowsing Books, L-rods & Pendulums * Abe's Story: A Holocaust Memoir, my father's autobiography * Music for Relaxation and Meditation * Books by and about Walter Russell * My Upcoming Workshops and Speaking Events Much more will be added to the site in the months to come, so keep visiting. I'd love to hear from you about your comments and/or suggestions. Joey Korn PS-If you have received this, you have probably expressed an interest in some aspect of my work. If you'd like to be removed from my mailing list, please let me know. *************************** TOOLS FOR EMPOWERMENT Dowsing supplies & Walter Russell books Order a copy of the January '99 edition of my groundbreaking book, DOWSING: A PATH TO ENLIGHTENMENT http://dowsers.com Phone/Fax: 706-736-2549 Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 00:24:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11635 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:24:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08912; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07548 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:07:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.143.52] (max15-48.stc.net [208.210.138.48]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA01744 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:10:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990331.095539.15406.4.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:37:40 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: learning to dowse Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 496 >Hugh Lovel wrote: > >So the basic rule is bury your preps where the life forces are really >rich. I just now >>checked it out and the location I'm burying preps is at a junction of >four >>energy lines (exceptional). This makes for lots of energy there. The >results >>show this. So set all other rules aside, and look for a place where the >>life forces are really rich. > > >Hugh, could you tell us how you learned to dowse and if there is a >particular book or person you'd recommend as a guide? > >Regards, >Deborah Byron >LaQuerencia@juno.com > > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Dear Deborah, Harvey Lisle taught me to dowse with "y" rods, and before that, my neighbor Shariri, Chris Bird's wife, taught me to pendulum dowse. It's not too complicated. You can write to the American Dowsers' Association, Danville, VT 05828-0024 for a Dowsers' chapter near you. Or you might tune in to one of Joey Korn's workshops. He's an excellent teacher who after a career in the auto parts industry has now devoted his life to teaching dowsing. I told Joey a little while back that I thought dowsing will become obsolete before too long--maybe a hundred years. He was stirred up by that, since he has found dowsing such a rich source of revealations. But with dowsing we are looking at things more or less like we would with glasses or other sensory assistance methods. When our grandchildren get things really focused in clear perception dowsing will be obsolete. For now, however, we must make do with what we can do, and dowsing just about everyone can do. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 00:24:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11644 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:24:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08742; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:10:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07514 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:07:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.143.52] (max15-48.stc.net [208.210.138.48]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA01732 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:10:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199903251802.NAA24212@envirolink.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:11:42 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD compost in arid climate Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 497 > >Thanks Hugh for this reply: > >Although I get about 30 in of rainfall, most of it pours down in a few >storms during a three month period. A month after the rainy season there >is practically no residual moisture is the soil. This is far more evident >in the cultivated and pasture land than in the wild. > >In the coffee and fruit trees areas of my place, I just leave whatever >fall to the ground there (before everything was kept well swept.) That >alone has improved the quality of the soil and the health of the plants. >You can even tell the difference between the pathways and the untraveled >areas. > >I some areas of my place where I had bare soil, I am also doing sheet >composting using a small layer of cow manure and a heavy layer of >rice-straw mulch. The results are great, you can see the improvement in a >very short period. Here I water from time to time and I am planning to >mulch some more during the rainny season to avoid the newly created soil >from running off. > >To keep moisture and increase life in the soil, in collaboration with a >local ag technical high school, we are preparing a demonstration pasture >area using the Keyline methodology, (using a modified chisel plow, deep >rooting crops, worms and spraying the preps). This methodology I think is >very promising for the recuperation of this area. Althought it will take >three years to complete, I hope to see some results a couple of months >after the rainy season is over (it ends in september). > >I believe nothing is more important to do, in this semi arid climates, >than to recuperate the soil's ability to hold moisture, and that can only >be done by increasing it's capacity to hold life. > >Again many thanks for your input and warm regards. > >ps I would also like to try out your sauce recipe. > > >Guillermo Romero I. >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Dear Guillermo, I've always lived in high rainfall environments, but there's something about deserts that intrigues me. When I started farming biodynamically it occured to me to ask, "What's the furthest this can be taken to on this planet?" The answer was reclaiming the Sahara. There was a good work-up on the Sahara in March '99 National Geographic. It is REALLY arid. But you know, it is the former Garden of Eden, and if we learned how to bring rain back there it would become, once again, what it was. We've got a lot to learn on this planet before we're fit for space travel. Reclaiming the Sahara is a principle sign of our preparedness. We must reclaim it to join the community of intergalactic beings. What this Mexican Indian guy, Ed Mendoza, showed me on his arid acres in southern Arizona was pretty inspiring. I bet if you looked in the long view at what you are doing with your coffee and fruit and your sheet composting you'd see what an enormous effect can result. These things may be taken lightly and not pursued, but if your efforts are consistent, what do you suppose will result 40 opr 50 years--or 200 or 300--down the road? The Sahara was forested 15,000 years ago. It didn't turn arid overnight. It turned arid because of human abuse, and that didn't all happen overnight. I haven't got a copy, but I believe Jim DeMeo's book gives some accounting of Wilhelm Reich's insight into this process. Someone you might tune into is Alan Savory, of Holistic Resource Management in New Mexico. It's crazy, but I don't have his address. I'd suggest either calling ACRES, U.S.A. 800 889 2100, or writing one of his students I'm in contact with, Raemona Howard, 0984 Daggett Lane, Gypsum, CO 81637. Alan is from South Africa and has quite a bit of insight into arid environments. With all this we are probably exhausting my meagre information about arid climates. I'll need to learn from you in the future, since you are living there and here I am at 70 inches annual rainfall. I want to learn, though. I find it very intriguing. Incidentally, we are working across languages. I go to a lot of trouble to spell things correctly so you can look them up successfully in dictionaries. Chances are my spelling is correct. I put a lot of wear on a dictionary. This is for your benefit. I offer this as a measure of respect to those having to use dictionaries. As for the hot sauce, now that you've got the recipe, make it. You probably can grow better peppers than I can. Grow them BD and they will be wonderful. You'll become famous for your hot sauce. Georgia is not really a hot sauce state. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 00:49:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11882 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:49:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA18318; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:35:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA18189 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:34:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.210.143.52] (max15-48.stc.net [208.210.138.48]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA03132 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:38:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4d702186.3702e1ad@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:56:08 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Hugh's hot sauce recipe (was compost in arid climate) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 498 >Hugh, > > WOW! Can't wait to try it. I was schooled in New Mexico making red sauce >and green sauce. Looking forward to another spicy experience. I'll have to get >those cayenne pepper seeds out of storage. Quite a mix of herbs and spices. >Have you tried Epazote in red sauce? It's different and people always remark >"what's that taste?" > >Thanks, Patrick Patrick, Just goes to show you. I haven't any idea what epazote is. My dictionary says epazote is wormseed. This might relate to our American wormseed, or Jewruselam Oak, a chenapodium used to eliminate parasites around here. It's spicy, and could be used as a food. What have we here? Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 00:57:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11965 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:57:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA20979; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:44:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA20005 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:41:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d150.infoserve.net [199.175.157.150]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA07043 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:47:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <005601be7c02$c971a680$969dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Coffee Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:41:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 499 One went air mail, the other surface! M. -----Original Message----- From: Intergalactic Garage To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 7:26 PM Subject: Coffee >No beans yet, Michael! > >The invoice is here, but no beans yet! > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 02:39:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA12913 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:39:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA28901; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:21:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from alternatives.com ([204.244.88.165]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA28744 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:18:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from georgiah (unverified [204.244.111.21]) by alternatives.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:20:24 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990331231517.00843100@mail.alternatives.com> X-Sender: conrad@mail.alternatives.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:15:17 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Conrad Subject: Re: more Spring signals in Vancouver area In-Reply-To: <000901be7baf$d527c840$9e9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 500 My garden is now full of lil' horsetails, and I saw a bald eagle fly by my window at work today (in the city!). Conrad you wrote: >>>> First grass mowing today First planting of cool tolerant vegies flock of flickers (type of woodpecker) looks like 2 days of sun in a row! M. <<<<<<<< From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 07:02:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA14833 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 07:02:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA09642; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:49:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA09335 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:46:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.113] (pm3shep3-163-113.intrepid.net [209.190.163.113]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA21540 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:49:13 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <4d702186.3702e1ad@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:50:34 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: Hugh's hot sauce recipe (was compost in arid climate) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 501 >>Hugh, >> >> WOW! Can't wait to try it. I was schooled in New Mexico making red sauce >>and green sauce. Looking forward to another spicy experience. I'll have >>to get >>those cayenne pepper seeds out of storage. Quite a mix of herbs and spices. >>Have you tried Epazote in red sauce? It's different and people always remark >>"what's that taste?" >> >>Thanks, Patrick > Patrick - They are more explicit when I have used epazonte: They say "Did you put gasoline in these beans?" :-) -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 08:38:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA15670 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:38:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA14834; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:25:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA14722 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:24:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.9]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:30:08 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:27:39 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Counting Blue Moons? Think Again, Because Definition Is Wrong (from NYTimes) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 502 Counting Blue Moons? Think Again, Because Definition Is Wrong [A modern definition is based on an error made five decades ago.] By HENRY FOUNTAIN It was supposed to be a banner year for blue moons, with one in January and another that rose Wednesday night, as March drew to a close. But now the astronomy magazine Sky and Telescope has discovered that the modern definition of a blue moon -- as the second full moon in a month -- is based upon an error made more than five decades ago. And the perpetrator was none other than Sky and Telescope itself. Rather than the twice-in-a-month definition, the magazine says in the current issue, a blue moon was originally understood to be a fourth full moon in a season, which normally has three. By that definition, neither the January nor March moons are blue; in fact, 1999 is blue-moonless. Donald W. Olson, an astronomer at Southwest Texas State University and an author of the current article, said the error came to light as the magazine's editors were preparing an article for the March issue on blue moons, which this year had sparked much interest because of the appearance of two of them. (Most years are lucky to have one, no matter what the definition.) In the March article, a Canadian folklorist had traced the definition to a 1946 Sky and Telescope article, which itself made reference to the use of the term in a 1937 edition of the Maine Farmers' Almanac. Olson, who is something of an authority on old almanacs, got a copy of the 1937 edition, and immediately noticed that something was amiss. The blue moon was listed for Aug. 21, 1937. Since the lunar cycle, from full moon to full moon, is 29 1/2 days, simple arithmetic showed that this moon could not have been the second in August. Olson fired off an urgent E-mail message to Roger W. Sinnott, one of the magazine's associate editors. "I said, 'Roger, be very careful what you say in the article,' " Olson recalled. "The blue moon in this almanac I'm sending you is not and cannot be the second moon in a month." The author of the 1946 article, Hugh Pruett, who lived in Oregon, did not have the 1937 almanac with him when he wrote the piece, Sinnott said. "He knew enough astronomy to realize that if there are 13 full moons in a year, one month has to have two of them," Sinnott said. Pruett wrote in the article that "this second in a month, so I interpret it, was called Blue Moon." But he obviously did not realize the date of the blue moon in the almanac, or that 1937 in fact only had 12 moons. Nothing came of the mistake for years, until the writer of a National Public Radio show on astronomy, having spied the blue moon tidbit while thumbing through old issues of the magazine, included it in a program in 1980. It was later picked up by the makers of the game Trivial Pursuit, who included it as a question in 1986. Sky and Telescope published the March article acknowledging that the current definition of a blue moon appeared to be wrong. But determining what the original definition was required a bit more detective work on the part of Olson, who eventually obtained more than 40 early editions of the almanac. All told, there were more than a dozen references to blue moons. "But not a single one was the second moon in a month," he said. Instead, he noticed that all of the blue moons in the almanacs occurred within a day or two of the 21st of a month, and that they occurred only in February, May, August and November. Olson saw a seasonal pattern. "As soon as I saw those 21st's, I was thinking equinoxes and solstices," he said. And the four months in question, he noticed, preceded the months that contain either the equinoxes or solstices. The editors of the Maine almanac, he realized, were going by what is known as a "tropical" year, from winter solstice to winter solstice. And some of these tropical years do have 13 moons. But more important, the additional moon was considered to come within a three-month season, not within one month. And because the almanac's editors had a convention for naming the normal 12 moons of the year, including the four that are the last in each season, the blue moon was considered the third moon of a four-moon season. By their definition, the next one is in February 2000. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 09:20:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16395 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:20:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23553; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22934 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:05:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp199.cy-net.net [208.21.195.8]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA16527 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:08:35 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7C14.0B4DF0C0@FLYLO>; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 07:48:34 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7C14.0B4DF0C0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: coffee Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 07:20:38 -0600 Encoding: 10 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 503 I was given coffee bean for seeds from this gent: Ron Werner, Ron's Rare Plants & Seeds 415 Chappel Calumet City, Illinois 60409 His catalog (I have an old version) is pretty interesting, too. My coffee beans are as yet unplanted. If anyone is planting them, I'd appreciate some pointers, too. (Should they be in the greenhouse, etc.) thanks martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 10:09:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17290 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:09:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29002; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28651 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:55:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d154.infoserve.net [199.175.157.154]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA21848 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 07:01:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003101be7c50$36964c00$9a9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Counting Blue Moons? Think Again, Because Definition Is Wrong (from NYTimes) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:58:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 504 oh well The moon was gorgeous last night and Venus was also very bright, Jupiter also quite visible. M. -----Original Message----- From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, April 01, 1999 5:31 AM Subject: Counting Blue Moons? Think Again, Because Definition Is Wrong (from NYTimes) >Counting Blue Moons? Think Again, Because Definition Is Wrong >[A modern definition is based on an error made five decades ago.] >By HENRY FOUNTAIN > >It was supposed to be a banner year for blue moons, with one in January and >another that rose Wednesday night, as March drew to a close. > >But now the astronomy magazine Sky and Telescope has discovered that the >modern definition of a blue moon -- as the second full moon in a month -- >is based upon an error made more than five decades ago. And the perpetrator >was none other than Sky and Telescope itself. > >Rather than the twice-in-a-month definition, the magazine says in the >current issue, a blue moon was originally understood to be a fourth full >moon in a season, which normally has three. By that definition, neither the >January nor March moons are blue; in fact, 1999 is blue-moonless. > >Donald W. Olson, an astronomer at Southwest Texas State University and an >author of the current article, said the error came to light as the >magazine's editors were preparing an article for the March issue on blue >moons, which this year had sparked much interest because of the appearance >of two of them. (Most years are lucky to have one, no matter what the >definition.) > >In the March article, a Canadian folklorist had traced the definition to a >1946 Sky and Telescope article, which itself made reference to the use of >the term in a 1937 edition of the Maine Farmers' Almanac. > >Olson, who is something of an authority on old almanacs, got a copy of the >1937 edition, and immediately noticed that something was amiss. The blue >moon was listed for Aug. 21, 1937. Since the lunar cycle, from full moon to >full moon, is 29 1/2 days, simple arithmetic showed that this moon could >not have been the second in August. > >Olson fired off an urgent E-mail message to Roger W. Sinnott, one of the >magazine's associate editors. > >"I said, 'Roger, be very careful what you say in the article,' " Olson >recalled. "The blue moon in this almanac I'm sending you is not and cannot >be the second moon in a month." > >The author of the 1946 article, Hugh Pruett, who lived in Oregon, did not >have the 1937 almanac with him when he wrote the piece, Sinnott said. "He >knew enough astronomy to realize that if there are 13 full moons in a year, >one month has to have two of them," Sinnott said. > >Pruett wrote in the article that "this second in a month, so I interpret >it, was called Blue Moon." But he obviously did not realize the date of the >blue moon in the almanac, or that 1937 in fact only had 12 moons. > >Nothing came of the mistake for years, until the writer of a National >Public Radio show on astronomy, having spied the blue moon tidbit while >thumbing through old issues of the magazine, included it in a program in >1980. It was later picked up by the makers of the game Trivial Pursuit, who >included it as a question in 1986. > >Sky and Telescope published the March article acknowledging that the >current definition of a blue moon appeared to be wrong. But determining >what the original definition was required a bit more detective work on the >part of Olson, who eventually obtained more than 40 early editions of the >almanac. All told, there were more than a dozen references to blue moons. >"But not a single one was the second moon in a month," he said. > >Instead, he noticed that all of the blue moons in the almanacs occurred >within a day or two of the 21st of a month, and that they occurred only in >February, May, August and November. Olson saw a seasonal pattern. > >"As soon as I saw those 21st's, I was thinking equinoxes and solstices," he >said. And the four months in question, he noticed, preceded the months that >contain either the equinoxes or solstices. > >The editors of the Maine almanac, he realized, were going by what is known >as a "tropical" year, from winter solstice to winter solstice. And some of >these tropical years do have 13 moons. But more important, the additional >moon was considered to come within a three-month season, not within one >month. And because the almanac's editors had a convention for naming the >normal 12 moons of the year, including the four that are the last in each >season, the blue moon was considered the third moon of a four-moon season. >By their definition, the next one is in February 2000. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 10:36:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17838 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:36:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01902; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:24:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01856 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:24:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00AAEB68@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:27:37 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 1 Apr 99 10:27:32 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 1 Apr 99 10:27:22 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:27:16 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Spirituality and Ag Priority: normal In-reply-to: <01be7b07$f48cac80$7515d1cd@default> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <161A5B9371B@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 505 It's good to see John Ikerd's article posted here. I think many of you might be interested in the work that he and a group of mostly other econ professors are doing toward shifting the paradigm in science (in particular economics) to include the spiritual realm. They are in the process of writing a beautiful Declaration of Interdependence. Anyway, for some more info on this, please check out the website put up by Patrick Madden (a former econ prof who worked at Penn State for 20 years), who is also one of the main people of this group: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/patrickmadden/ Hope you enjoy, Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 10:45:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA18010 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:45:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03149; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:33:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03022 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:33:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([195.44.15.117]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:36:59 +0100 Message-ID: <37039324.112@cwcom.net> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 16:39:16 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: biased NAS Committee Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 506 Sorry - I would like to comment to the NAS Committee which is to assess the possible impact of GE food crops, even though not a US citizen, particularly on the way in which the US Administration is effectively trying to force Europeans to accept GE foods (and BST-raised beef) by invoking World Trade Organisation agreements on "restraint of trade". However, I have been unable to call up the relevant website by either URL given (by 'P. Hieronimus' and, later, by 'Julie M'). Is there an error in either of those? I call up my mail off-line, so have not been able just to click on the link. Tony N-S From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 12:00:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20210 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:00:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13034; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:47:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12494 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:44:15 -0500 (EST) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id hVLWa15186 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:46:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1d396aa0.3703a2ed@aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:46:37 EST To: BDnow@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: epazote Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 507 Allan wrote: They are more explicit when I have used epazonte: They say "Did you put gasoline in these beans?" :-) Recipe: Just use a pinch of stems or dried leaves of epazote in the blender with cumin seeds, garlic, salt and about 4 to 6 ounces of large dried red chili pods (deseeded and torn up). Whirl in blender with boiling water till smooth. 3 to 5 minutes. Simmer on stove for a couple of hours stirring every now and then adding water if the red sauce gets too thick. Watch out epazote is an extremely flavorful herb. Testimony to that Allan's beans and a few batches of red sauce I've made. Hope nobody lit a match after gasoline beans! Whew!!! Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 12:14:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20612 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:14:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15041; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:02:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14804 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:00:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp219.cy-net.net [208.21.195.28]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09450 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:04:10 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7C2C.7F29BE80@FLYLO>; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:43:36 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7C2C.7F29BE80@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: rather appropriate (animal topic) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:35:05 -0600 Encoding: 28 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 508 On the subject of animal 'husbandry' that was going on BD Now awhile back, ... I just got this book introduction on another list, and thought it fit into the same thread - as the discussion headed here. >From Chelle Rogers (Castalia Llamas) : I just opened a book I just got and the forward says: WE NEED ANOTHER AND A WISER AND PERHAPS A MORE MYSTICAL CONCEPT OF ANIMALS. Remote from universal nature, and living by complicated artifice, man in civilization surveys the creature through the glass of his knowledge and see thereby a feather magnified and the whole image in distortion. We patronize them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate of having taken form so far below ourselves. And therein we err, and greatly err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours they move finished and complete, gifted with extentions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. THEY ARE NOT BRETHREN, THEY ARE NOT UNDERLINGS; THEY ARE OTHER NATIONS, CAUGHT WITH OURSELVES IN THE NET OF LIFE AND TIME, FELLOW PRISONERS OF THE SPLENDOUR ND TRAVAIL OF THE EARTH. from The Outermost House by Henry Beston *** The capitals are there as written. The name of this book is The Listening Ones by Naomi M. Stokes Publishers Weekly says: "Once again, the Pacific Northwest - its people, its landscape, and especially its animals - comes alive in Stoke's talented hands." martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 12:39:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21160 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:38:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18753; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:27:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18413 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:25:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00AB100E@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:28:28 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 1 Apr 99 12:28:23 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 1 Apr 99 12:27:55 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:27:54 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: composting, mulching vs "cleanliness" Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <163A82C0F59@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 509 Dear Guillermo, Since you seem to do outreach work and you're in Mexico, I'm wondering how this idea of covered earth is received by others there. When I worked in sustainable ag in Dominican Republic, I preached the gospel of covered earth, but was pretty much ignored. The habit of seeing anything other than bare dirt (usually soil had already been swept away) as "dirty" (sucio) prevailed. It was even taken to ridiculous extremes. I remember one family in particular that did its best to have the "best looking" yard around, and what that ended up meaning was the foundation of their house and the nearby trees rising up from the ground (you know, visa versa, the earth was dimishing below them). It is amazing what an army of brooms can do. But they took the extra step of spraying herbicide on the few tufts of grass that dared to show themselves. This was the community model for ag fields as well. But how different is that from this country where everyone has Scott's Turf Builder-ammended deserts in their front yards? How do we train people to see with different eyes? When will "clean and lovely" be recognized as "denuded and lifeless"? Oops, sorry for the rant. > > > >Although I get about 30 in of rainfall, most of it pours down in a few > >storms during a three month period. A month after the rainy season there > >is practically no residual moisture is the soil. This is far more evident > >in the cultivated and pasture land than in the wild. > > > >In the coffee and fruit trees areas of my place, I just leave whatever > >fall to the ground there (before everything was kept well swept.) That > >alone has improved the quality of the soil and the health of the plants. > >You can even tell the difference between the pathways and the untraveled > >areas. > > > >I some areas of my place where I had bare soil, I am also doing sheet > >composting using a small layer of cow manure and a heavy layer of > >rice-straw mulch. The results are great, you can see the improvement in a > >very short period. Here I water from time to time and I am planning to > >mulch some more during the rainny season to avoid the newly created soil > >from running off. > > > >To keep moisture and increase life in the soil, in collaboration with a > >local ag technical high school, we are preparing a demonstration pasture > >area using the Keyline methodology, (using a modified chisel plow, deep > >rooting crops, worms and spraying the preps). This methodology I think is > >very promising for the recuperation of this area. Althought it will take > >three years to complete, I hope to see some results a couple of months > >after the rainy season is over (it ends in september). > > > >I believe nothing is more important to do, in this semi arid climates, > >than to recuperate the soil's ability to hold moisture, and that can only > >be done by increasing it's capacity to hold life. > > > >Again many thanks for your input and warm regards. > > > >ps I would also like to try out your sauce recipe. > > > > > >Guillermo Romero I. > >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > > Dear Guillermo, > > I've always lived in high rainfall environments, but there's something > about deserts that intrigues me. When I started farming biodynamically it > occured to me to ask, "What's the furthest this can be taken to on this > planet?" The answer was reclaiming the Sahara. > > There was a good work-up on the Sahara in March '99 National Geographic. It > is REALLY arid. But you know, it is the former Garden of Eden, and if we > learned how to bring rain back there it would become, once again, what it > was. We've got a lot to learn on this planet before we're fit for space > travel. Reclaiming the Sahara is a principle sign of our preparedness. We > must reclaim it to join the community of intergalactic beings. > > What this Mexican Indian guy, Ed Mendoza, showed me on his arid acres in > southern Arizona was pretty inspiring. I bet if you looked in the long view > at what you are doing with your coffee and fruit and your sheet composting > you'd see what an enormous effect can result. These things may be taken > lightly and not pursued, but if your efforts are consistent, what do you > suppose will result 40 opr 50 years--or 200 or 300--down the road? The > Sahara was forested 15,000 years ago. It didn't turn arid overnight. It > turned arid because of human abuse, and that didn't all happen overnight. I > haven't got a copy, but I believe Jim DeMeo's book gives some accounting of > Wilhelm Reich's insight into this process. > > Someone you might tune into is Alan Savory, of Holistic Resource Management > in New Mexico. It's crazy, but I don't have his address. I'd suggest either > calling ACRES, U.S.A. 800 889 2100, or writing one of his students I'm in > contact with, Raemona Howard, 0984 Daggett Lane, Gypsum, CO 81637. Alan is > from South Africa and has quite a bit of insight into arid environments. > > With all this we are probably exhausting my meagre information about arid > climates. I'll need to learn from you in the future, since you are living > there and here I am at 70 inches annual rainfall. I want to learn, though. > I find it very intriguing. > > Incidentally, we are working across languages. I go to a lot of trouble to > spell things correctly so you can look them up successfully in > dictionaries. Chances are my spelling is correct. I put a lot of wear on a > dictionary. This is for your benefit. I offer this as a measure of respect > to those having to use dictionaries. > > As for the hot sauce, now that you've got the recipe, make it. You probably > can grow better peppers than I can. Grow them BD and they will be > wonderful. You'll become famous for your hot sauce. Georgia is not really a > hot sauce state. > > Best, > > Hugh Lovel > Blairsville, Georgia > > "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." > --Wendell Berry > > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 13:06:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA21880 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:06:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22657; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:54:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22316 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:52:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.137] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.145]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0F9I00HFOUEJNB@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:39:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 11:42:41 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Hugh's hot sauce recipe (was compost in arid climate) In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <4d702186.3702e1ad@aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA22324 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 510 , > >Just goes to show you. I haven't any idea what epazote is. My dictionary >says epazote is wormseed. This might relate to our American wormseed, or >Jewruselam Oak, a chenapodium used to eliminate parasites around here. It's >spicy, and could be used as a food. What have we here? > >Best, > >Hugh Lovel >Blairsville, Georgia > High Hugh: The formal name for epazote is Chenopodium ambrosioides L. It is indeed used for de-worming (Ascaris L.). Around here, people boil about half a cup of the fresh herb with a half a cup of water liquify the mixture and drink it very early in the morning. Usually during that day they fast or eat very lightly. Epazote is also used widely in Mexico as a condiment. The fresh herb is introduced in quesadillas (corn tortilla with cheese or other filling) before frying,it is added to a number of Mexican sauces, and it is a must in the cooking of black beans, just add a branch or two to the cooking water along with salt, garlic and onion. Greetings Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 14:00:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23446 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 14:00:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00083; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:47:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29821 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:45:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d144.infoserve.net [199.175.157.144]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA06369 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:51:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002601be7c70$6a1e3ae0$909dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: composting, mulching vs "cleanliness" Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:48:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 511 When I was at Kahuman on O'Ahu, Hawai'i back in the early 1980's, as it was the dry-subtropics, I was taught, not only to augment with good compost, but, to cover any exposed earth with hay, leaves, etc., to prevent from drying out. This also led to more organic matter being incorporated eventually into the soil. Was fine on small scale vegie garden, but, in the fields, we did not do that. We intercropped and irrigated. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Anita Graf (Staff) To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, April 01, 1999 9:33 AM Subject: composting, mulching vs "cleanliness" Dear Guillermo, Since you seem to do outreach work and you're in Mexico, I'm wondering how this idea of covered earth is received by others there. When I worked in sustainable ag in Dominican Republic, I preached the gospel of covered earth, but was pretty much ignored. The habit of seeing anything other than bare dirt (usually soil had already been swept away) as "dirty" (sucio) prevailed. It was even taken to ridiculous extremes. I remember one family in particular that did its best to have the "best looking" yard around, and what that ended up meaning was the foundation of their house and the nearby trees rising up from the ground (you know, visa versa, the earth was dimishing below them). It is amazing what an army of brooms can do. But they took the extra step of spraying herbicide on the few tufts of grass that dared to show themselves. This was the community model for ag fields as well. But how different is that from this country where everyone has Scott's Turf Builder-ammended deserts in their front yards? How do we train people to see with different eyes? When will "clean and lovely" be recognized as "denuded and lifeless"? Oops, sorry for the rant. > > > >Although I get about 30 in of rainfall, most of it pours down in a few > >storms during a three month period. A month after the rainy season there > >is practically no residual moisture is the soil. This is far more evident > >in the cultivated and pasture land than in the wild. > > > >In the coffee and fruit trees areas of my place, I just leave whatever > >fall to the ground there (before everything was kept well swept.) That > >alone has improved the quality of the soil and the health of the plants. > >You can even tell the difference between the pathways and the untraveled > >areas. > > > >I some areas of my place where I had bare soil, I am also doing sheet > >composting using a small layer of cow manure and a heavy layer of > >rice-straw mulch. The results are great, you can see the improvement in a > >very short period. Here I water from time to time and I am planning to > >mulch some more during the rainny season to avoid the newly created soil > >from running off. > > > >To keep moisture and increase life in the soil, in collaboration with a > >local ag technical high school, we are preparing a demonstration pasture > >area using the Keyline methodology, (using a modified chisel plow, deep > >rooting crops, worms and spraying the preps). This methodology I think is > >very promising for the recuperation of this area. Althought it will take > >three years to complete, I hope to see some results a couple of months > >after the rainy season is over (it ends in september). > > > >I believe nothing is more important to do, in this semi arid climates, > >than to recuperate the soil's ability to hold moisture, and that can only > >be done by increasing it's capacity to hold life. > > > >Again many thanks for your input and warm regards. > > > >ps I would also like to try out your sauce recipe. > > > > > >Guillermo Romero I. > >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > > Dear Guillermo, > > I've always lived in high rainfall environments, but there's something > about deserts that intrigues me. When I started farming biodynamically it > occured to me to ask, "What's the furthest this can be taken to on this > planet?" The answer was reclaiming the Sahara. > > There was a good work-up on the Sahara in March '99 National Geographic. It > is REALLY arid. But you know, it is the former Garden of Eden, and if we > learned how to bring rain back there it would become, once again, what it > was. We've got a lot to learn on this planet before we're fit for space > travel. Reclaiming the Sahara is a principle sign of our preparedness. We > must reclaim it to join the community of intergalactic beings. > > What this Mexican Indian guy, Ed Mendoza, showed me on his arid acres in > southern Arizona was pretty inspiring. I bet if you looked in the long view > at what you are doing with your coffee and fruit and your sheet composting > you'd see what an enormous effect can result. These things may be taken > lightly and not pursued, but if your efforts are consistent, what do you > suppose will result 40 opr 50 years--or 200 or 300--down the road? The > Sahara was forested 15,000 years ago. It didn't turn arid overnight. It > turned arid because of human abuse, and that didn't all happen overnight. I > haven't got a copy, but I believe Jim DeMeo's book gives some accounting of > Wilhelm Reich's insight into this process. > > Someone you might tune into is Alan Savory, of Holistic Resource Management > in New Mexico. It's crazy, but I don't have his address. I'd suggest either > calling ACRES, U.S.A. 800 889 2100, or writing one of his students I'm in > contact with, Raemona Howard, 0984 Daggett Lane, Gypsum, CO 81637. Alan is > from South Africa and has quite a bit of insight into arid environments. > > With all this we are probably exhausting my meagre information about arid > climates. I'll need to learn from you in the future, since you are living > there and here I am at 70 inches annual rainfall. I want to learn, though. > I find it very intriguing. > > Incidentally, we are working across languages. I go to a lot of trouble to > spell things correctly so you can look them up successfully in > dictionaries. Chances are my spelling is correct. I put a lot of wear on a > dictionary. This is for your benefit. I offer this as a measure of respect > to those having to use dictionaries. > > As for the hot sauce, now that you've got the recipe, make it. You probably > can grow better peppers than I can. Grow them BD and they will be > wonderful. You'll become famous for your hot sauce. Georgia is not really a > hot sauce state. > > Best, > > Hugh Lovel > Blairsville, Georgia > > "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." > --Wendell Berry > > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 14:51:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA24947 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 14:51:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07736; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 14:39:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07246 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 14:35:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mroboz (d144.infoserve.net [199.175.157.144]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA10159 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:41:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000a01be7c77$683e0500$909dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw:OFF/Monsanto's wars against Europe and individuals / GEN4-1 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:39:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 512 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Thursday, April 01, 1999 11:01 AM Subject: GEN4-1 >Here is the front page of a website that you might find interesting > >URL is http://www.infoshop.org/biotechwatch.html > >..... >News about biotechnology, genetically-engineered foods (GE) and activist >campaigns to control this technology. > > >* Sainsbury's ban GM foods from own-brand range >* Organic groups crafting nationwide guidelines >* Financial threat in Frankenstein foods >* Gene remark shocks Farmers >* A question of breeding >* Bioengineered Crops Raise Question Of Tampering With Nature >* RACHEL Report On Genetically Altering The World's Food >* Secret Report On GM Foods Revealed >* U.S. helps foil treaty on genetically modified crops >* Australia helps sink genetic food treaty >* 'Frankenstein food' scare rocks Britain >* Monsanto pushes benefits of GM foods to the environment >* Greenpeace Calls For Nat'l Import Bans On GE Crops >* Seeds of dissension >* U.S., others sink talks on biogenetics regulation >* U.S. Lawsuit Seeks Withdrawal Of Bio-Engineered Crops >* Moratorium on Genetic Engineered Foods in U.K. for 5 Years? >* Legal "Terminator" Threatens Francophone Africa's Farmers > >................ > >Financial Times (London) March 27, 1999 > >Iceland founder acts ahead of the pack > >Malcolm Walker, founder of frozen food retailer Iceland, announced the >removal of genetically modified ingredients from the group's own label >products long before the current furore persuaded J Sainsbury and Marks >and Spencer to follow suit. This week he reported a bounce back in annual >profits from L43.5m to L55.1m. Page 20 > >....... > >The Toronto Star March 28, 1999 > >LEADING THE CHARGE AGAINST MONSANTO > > BODY: I wrote last week of India's farmers leading the last cavalry charge >against the big guns of Monsanto. Just about everyone is at war with >Monsanto over its newest technological achievements involving genetically >-modified crops and plants. Those few who are on Monsanto's side include >the United States and world powers such as Panama, Peru, and Canada. > >In February, members of the European Parliament voted to restrict further >importation of certain GM products until sufficient study had been done >with respect to possible dangers to human health and the environment. Our >own government, apparently without a mind of its own, has followed the >American lead which is to leave it to the free market to decide. The >exception to this was the bovine growth hormone BST, a Monsanto product >that boosts milk production in cows. > >The federal health department, after prolonged and bitter internal debate, >followed Europe's decision and banned BST, on the grounds of its effect on >the cows. > >It is possible to be supportive of genetically -modified seeds and yet >support the need for further research. Against the benefit of greater crop >yields are the possible, considerable dangers. The Europeans are cautious, >the Americans are not (it is largely their technology and to their profit); >Canada supports the Americans. > >Monsanto, meanwhile, is on the warpath. It is resisting any attempt by >governments to require food containing GM products to be labelled as such, >or milk products from cows fed with bovine growth hormone being so >labelled. But labelling is only part of the problem: Last February, >European health-food importers were obliged to destory 87,000 packages of >tortilla chips, imported from the U.S.A., found to contain traces of >genetically - modified corn. The tainted corn was likely cross-pollinated >from GM maize grown in a neighbouring field. > >Monsanto is also militantly opposing those it suspects of hijacking its >patents. The company is presently suing a Saskatchewan farmer for illegally >growing Monsanto GM granola which a hired detective agency found among his >crops. The farmer claims the seeds blew in from a nearby dump (where seed >sacks are cast away) and took root in his fields. He has spent thousands >thus far in legal fees; his case is due in court this autumn. > >An effort by 170 nations to reach an accord regulating the commerce in >genetically -engineered products foundered at this month's meeting in >Colombia. The United States, along with a host of lobbying corporations, >and of course Canada, were among those seeking to undermine the initiative. >They succeeded. > >The Colombia protocol was intended to follow the convention on Biological >Diversity, ratified by 174 nations, including Canada, at the 1992 Earth >Summit meetings in Rio de Janeiro. The Americans, however, have not yet >concurred. Although President Clinton signed the treaty in 1993, the Senate >has delayed giving consent. > >English Nature, the British government's statutory adviser on these >matters, has written Prime Minister Tony Blair to offer its measured >opinion: ''Our position,'' the letter reads, ''on the likely effect of >herbicide tolerant crops is based on good scientific evidence, which >demonstates that declines in wild plants, insects, and birds on >agricultural land is partly due to the use of more efficient herbicides. >More research has recently been commissioned ... but will not report until >2003 at the earliest. ''Our advice to government has been that herbicide >tolerant crops and insect- resistant crops, not all GM crops, should not be >released commercially until this research has been completed... It is >important that English Nature be in a position to reassure the public that >the technology is environmentally safe. .. We cannot assure the public >about this currently.'' > >The British consumer has, at least, a friend in the court of Tony Blair. >Canadians have - you won't like this - only the Canadian Senate, whose >Agriculture Committee alone took on Monsanto and its bovine growth hormone, >along with senior health department officials, and the minister, Allan >Rock. The government, apparently, is in mortal fear of being sued through >chapter 11 of the NAFTA - every multinational corporation's best friend - >and of losing face in the WTO. > >Monsanto, you may recall, are the wonderful folk who brought the world >Agent Orange, a defoliant as deadly to people as to weeds, a leading >manufacturer of PCBs which cause cancer, and who sued farmers daring to >label their produce ''BST free.'' > >It was the Senate of Canada that gave health department researchers the >opportunity to testify to their unwillingness to approve BST and to report >Monsanto's friendly offer of $1 million to $2 million to Drs. Haydon and >Drennan, made by a Monsanto representative and which Drennan has said he >considered as a bribe. (Monsanto has denied it.) > >The Minister and senior officials sought to intimidate the witnesses and >censor their testimony, and the government has denied the Senate committee >the power to subpoena department records. > >This is a Liberal government? > >Dalton Camp is a political commentator. His columns appear Sundays and >Wednesdays in The Star. > >................. > >Los Angeles Times March 28, 1999 Opinion Desk > >COMMENTARY; PRINCE CHARLES TO TONY BLAIR: GET LOST; > >FARMING: THE HEIR APPARENT ADAMANTLY CAMPAIGNS AGAINST GENETICALLY >ENGINEERED CROPS. > >BYLINE: ALEXANDER COCKBURN, >Alexander Cockburn writes for the Nation and other publications > >BODY: Even in the darkest days of Princess Di mania, when his name was mud >among the masses, I had high hopes for Prince Charles as a radical thorn >in the side of business-as-usual. He's always been conspicuous for >sensible environmental positions athwart conventional opinion--on the >Amazon rainforest, land use and organic >agriculture. > >Now he's justifying my expectations, launching princely broadsides against >some of capital's mightiest corporate powers, specifically Monsanto and >the genetic -industrial complex. > >Last month, Labor Prime Minister Tony Blair ordered the prince to shut down >his royal Web site (www.princeofwales.gov.uk), which features vigorous >denunciations by the heir apparent of GM-- genetically modified crops. (In >the U.S., it's GE-- genetically engineered crops.) The prince refused point >blank the prime minister's command. > >Genetic material, the prince thunders in one posting, "does not stay where >it is put. Pollen is spread by the wind and by insects. GM crops can >contaminate conventional and organic crops growing nearby." Such crops >eventually mean "sterile fields offering little or no food or shelter to >wild life." > >The prince adds, "I wonder about the claims that some GM crops are >essential to feed the world's growing populations. . . . How will the >companies who own this technology make a sufficient profit from selling >their products to the world's poorest people? Wouldn't it be better to >concentrate instead on the sustainable techniques which can double or >treble the yields from traditional farming systems?" > >It may seem ironic that the British heir apparent should be adopting a >principled, enlightened position in marked contrast to Blair and the social >democrats. But their roles are in character. Blair's tradition of social >democracy has a frenzied enthusiasm for supposed technological progress. It >was Harold Wilson, Labor Party leader in the '60s, who used to hymn "the >white heat of technology." The tradition of rambling and rural hiking that >used to mark British radicals has long since gone. > >Far dearer to Blair's heart are big corporations--most notably >Monsanto--that are pushing patents for genetically modified crops into >Europe. Blair ordered the prince to shut down his Web site, calling it >political meddling. GM is a hot issue in the UK. > >The stakes are high for Monsanto. Consumers Union estimates that Monsanto's >bovine growth hormone, rBGH, could earn the company $ 500 million a year in >the U.S. and another $ 1 billion a year internationally. The haul from >Monsanto's Round-Up Ready soybeans, potatoes and corn and its terminator >seeds could be tens of billions more. > >Faced with the almost certain prospect that the European Union would ban >the import of Monsanto genetically modified corn in 1998, the company >unleashed an unprecedented lobbying effort, flying a group of critical >journalists to the U.S. to visit its corporate headquarters and labs with a >side trip to the White House. > >Bill Clinton and Al Gore got into the act, engaging in some last-minute >arm-twisting of the Irish and French prime ministers. France and Ireland >caved in to the pressure by last July. This spring, Monsanto's GM corn will >be planted in Europe. > >In Britain, the Labor government, secure in its majority, is nonetheless >embarrassed by blunders on the GM issue, including that Lord Sainsbury, >Labor's science minister, who is deeply involved in GM decision-making, had >financial and familial ties in GM companies. > >Prince Charles commands considerable public support from Britons deeply >suspicious of scientific manipulation of their food. The '60s live on, in >the most surprising ways. A decent slice of Prince Charles's world >view--cosmic holism, organic communitarianism--mirrors that of an American >hippie in the late '60s. After all, organic agriculture in America owes >much to the hippies, as does Humboldt Gold, an example of biological >manipulation of the most uplifting sort. > >........ > >Africa News March 25, 1999 > >Kenya; Lobby cautions against genetically -modified foods > >BYLINE: Catherine Mgendi, The Nation (Nairobi) > >Nairobi - There is more at stake in the on-going biosafety debate than >the politics of free trade and biodiversity conservation. > >Environmentalists say one of the greatest concerns of the biotechnology >industry is the health implication of eating genetically -altered foods. > >According to Greenpeace International, geneticists are "altering life >itself, dabbling with genes" to produce unnatural living plants and >animals. Greenpeace calls the potential consequences of this millennium >industry " frightening", saying scientists are sourcing genes of their >products from organisms such as rats, scorpions, bacteria and even humans, >which have never been part of the food chain. > >"The danger is they are mixing genes from entirely unrelated species; >animal genes are going into vegetables, bacteria genes into food crops, and >human genes into animals. ... Never before have genes from bacteria or >scorpions been part of the human diet!" says the environmental lobby, >lamenting that safety tests on genetically -engineered foods have been >"terrifyingly inadequate". How will we protect our health when we can >never tell what strange genes have been put in our basic foodstuffs? > >........ > >Portugal feed industry says GM safety paramount > >By David Brough LISBON, March 25 (Reuters) - > >Portugal's animal feed industry believes food safety is paramount in the >debate over whether to use genetically modified (GM) foodstuffs, a >spokesman said on Thursday. > >Luis Marques, secretary general of the Feed Compounders Association >(IACA), said it was too early for IACA to take a position on GM foods as >not enough information was available about possible long-term health >risks. Our biggest concern is for food safety," he told Reuters in a >telephone interview. "The debate on genetically modified organisms (GMOs) >remains confused because there is no concrete information on the >possible consequences of GMOs for health," he added. > >........ > >>From BBC News Website page: >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_307000/307544.stm > > Co-op pulls out of GM trials > >The UK's biggest farming organisation has pulled out of government trials >of genetically modified crops after concerns were raised by >environmentalists. ... The Co-operative Wholesale Society (CWS), which >farms 80,000 acres across the UK, was to have hosted two of the trials [of >genetically modified crops]. >But the CWS says it will be pulling out of the tests for this year as it >believed the tests themselves could raise the very fears they are designed >to allay. > >..... > >29 March 1999 Farmers Weekly (UK) > >CPS drops case against anti-GM women > >THE Crown Prosecution Service has dropped charges against two women accused >of destroying a test site for genetically modified (GM) crops in Devon. >Jacklyn Sheedy and Elizabeth Snook were arrested last August after >protestors uprooted a crop of herbicide-resistant maize at Hood Barton >Farm, near Totnes. The site is only a few hundred yards from a leading >organic vegetable farm. > > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic/geindex.html >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 for 12 months, payable to "BanGEF" and mailed to the above >address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 16:26:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA27333 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:26:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA21773; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:14:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21350 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:11:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00AB528E@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:14:55 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 1 Apr 99 16:14:51 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 1 Apr 99 16:14:23 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:14:20 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: rather appropriate (animal topic) Priority: normal In-reply-to: <01BE7C2C.7F29BE80@FLYLO> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1676E847DC3@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 513 Has anyone read the book (different from the movie I'm told) _The Horse Whisperer_ (at least I think that's the title, it might be some variation of that). I've seen it in the books-on-animals section in Barnes and Noble. I haven't read it properly yet, but I've read a lot of it in snatches on outings to the book store. It's wonderful and totally inspiring as regards Martha's post below. It's the story of a man who has an unbelievable communication not only with horses but he later extended it deer and I don't know who else. It's a testimony to the sensitivity and awareness in animals most people never give a second thought too. It's also written in a very real, down-to-earth manner. This is the real life experience of one unusual man. Check it out. Anita From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: rather appropriate (animal topic) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:35:05 -0600 Reply-to: bdnow@envirolink.org On the subject of animal 'husbandry' that was going on BD Now awhile back, ... I just got this book introduction on another list, and thought it fit into the same thread - as the discussion headed here. >From Chelle Rogers (Castalia Llamas) : I just opened a book I just got and the forward says: WE NEED ANOTHER AND A WISER AND PERHAPS A MORE MYSTICAL CONCEPT OF ANIMALS. Remote from universal nature, and living by complicated artifice, man in civilization surveys the creature through the glass of his knowledge and see thereby a feather magnified and the whole image in distortion. We patronize them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate of having taken form so far below ourselves. And therein we err, and greatly err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours they move finished and complete, gifted with extentions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. THEY ARE NOT BRETHREN, THEY ARE NOT UNDERLINGS; THEY ARE OTHER NATIONS, CAUGHT WITH OURSELVES IN THE NET OF LIFE AND TIME, FELLOW PRISONERS OF THE SPLENDOUR ND TRAVAIL OF THE EARTH. from The Outermost House by Henry Beston *** The capitals are there as written. The name of this book is The Listening Ones by Naomi M. Stokes Publishers Weekly says: "Once again, the Pacific Northwest - its people, its landscape, and especially its animals - comes alive in Stoke's talented hands." martha Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 16:31:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA27464 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:31:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22618; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:20:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22350 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:18:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.137] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.146]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0F9J00IKL4A35X@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:13:18 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 14:51:01 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: coffee In-reply-to: <01BE7C14.0B4DF0C0@FLYLO> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id QAA22359 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 514 >I was given coffee bean for seeds from this gent: >Ron Werner, Ron's Rare Plants & Seeds >415 Chappel >Calumet City, Illinois 60409 > >His catalog (I have an old version) is pretty interesting, too. >My coffee beans are as yet unplanted. If anyone is planting them, I'd >appreciate some pointers, too. (Should they be in the greenhouse, etc.) >thanks >martha Hi Martha: Sprouting coffee beans it is not at all hard but they take about a month to do so. Keep them dark at a temperature around 80 º F and moist, not wet, the beans tend to rot easily when kept too moist. The coffee plant will take some light frost, but I am afraid the Illinois weather will be too much, so yes you need a greenhouse. Place the plants bellow other plants that can provide shade or use a 75 % shade cloth above them. The coffee plant will produce beans in a sunny spot but the plant will not live very long and will be prompt to disease in those conditions. Hope this helps you. Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 16:32:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA27472 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:32:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22670; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:20:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22362 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:18:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.137] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.146]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0F9J00IKL4A35X@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:13:21 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 15:18:06 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: composting, mulching vs "cleanliness" In-reply-to: <163A82C0F59@agecon.uga.edu> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id QAA22377 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 515 >Dear Guillermo, >Since you seem to do outreach work and you're in Mexico, I'm >wondering how this idea of covered earth is received by others >there. When I worked in sustainable ag in Dominican Republic, I >preached the gospel of covered earth, but was pretty much ignored. >The habit of seeing anything other than bare dirt (usually soil had >already been swept away) as "dirty" (sucio) prevailed. It was even >taken to ridiculous extremes. I remember one family in particular >that did its best to have the "best looking" yard around, and what >that ended up meaning was the foundation of their house and the >nearby trees rising up from the ground (you know, visa versa, the >earth was dimishing below them). It is amazing what an army of >brooms can do. But they took the extra step of spraying herbicide on >the few tufts of grass that dared to show themselves. This was the >community model for ag fields as well. But how different is that >from this country where everyone has Scott's Turf Builder-ammended >deserts in their front yards? How do we train people to see with >different eyes? When will "clean and lovely" be recognized as >"denuded and lifeless"? Oops, sorry for the rant. >> > Yes Anita, it is the same story here. In a semiurban setting it is quite normal to see the bare ground around the house. Amidst a whole array of plants growing in containers and some times in the soil, but no ground cover. The areas of bare dirt are used for keeping animals, trowing away the bucket full of detergents or other cleaning agents, children's playground, etc. All those activities plus the weather makes it really hard to keep some cover down. In addition, most of the organic material is burnt or trown away as trash. In the small town where I live about 70 % of what is taken to the dumps (sanitary refills) is organic matter. In the well off urban areas, we have the plague of English grass that characterize the middle class of the world. It looks "better", but it takes a lot of tap water and effort to keep. In the rural setting, where I work, the modern campesinos like to see their land completely clean of ag debris after harvest and it is kept that way for a number of very dry and windy months. The organic matter that it is not eaten by the cattle it is burnt. We are trying to do things diferently with a few and more open minded growers, with the hope that they could improve their income first and serve as an example for others to follow. The health and evironmental arguments here are at best secondary to the income and survival ones. So I guess the story of Dominican R., Africa, Mexico, etc. is pretty similar, is'nt ? Kind regards. Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 16:45:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA27840 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:45:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24354; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:32:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23943 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:30:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00AB5751@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:33:17 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 1 Apr 99 16:33:12 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 1 Apr 99 16:33:09 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:33:08 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: (Fwd) From Sanet, a phycists response to GE Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <167BEA06EB2@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 516 If you don't subscribe to the Sanet list serve, I thought you would appreciate seeing a copy of this that was posted there. I think that most bders will identify with it. Anita Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:59:10 -0400 From: Richard Wolfson (by way of Daniel Worley ) Subject: GEN3-28; Fwd, [Reposted with permission] Brief Address to Wellington Forum on Genetically Modified Food by Peter R Wills, Ph.D., Associate Professor, Department of Physics, University of Auckland, Auckland, New Zealand 25 March 1999 Organisms are dynamic. In fact everything that happens in biology is based on endless orderly change, especially the flow of matter. The natural patterns and regularities that we observe in biology depend on the maintenance of processes of change. This applies from the microscopic level of the cell - a teeming zoo of molecular motion - all the way up to the biosphere - with its rich and variegated spatially-differentiated ecologies. How all of this works cannot be understood solely in terms of material structure, whether we are talking about the proteins and DNA molecules in a cell, or the individual organisms existing in an ecosystem. The effects of a gene cannot be assessed by looking at the static relationship between its sequence, the letters of the DNA message it represents, and the characteristics of the organism to which it is related. The meaning of a gene is determined by the context in which it is expressed. It also contributes to that context. So, when we swap a gene from one organism to another, we cannot know in advance what all the effects will be. We cannot know, not even in principle. That is very important because ecological relationships and evolutionary change rely on what is unusual, the innovation which arises as a result of mutation or the establishment of new interactions. The way this works is that events propagate through biological systems. The variation created by genetic mutation and recombination is the most elementary and fundamental way in which things propagate in biological systems. Three and a half billion years of evolution have given rise to only a very few means of genetic information transfer and propagation. These limitations have produced what we now call the tree of life. The maintenance of boundaries between constellations of particular genes in particular organisms is what keeps species and their interactions in the relationships that constitute dynamic eco-systems. Over the last few 10,000 years, intentional human actions, selective breeding programs of ever- increasing sophistication, have coerced desired changes from the game of roulette that reproduction plays with genes. But the basic rules of the game have not, and could not by such means, be altered. In the last quarter decade, as a result of what we have learnt in molecular biology, we have started to break all of these rules. No we make genetic transfers at will. It is now routine to effect changes which could never be coerced out of the billion-year-old processes which govern ecological interactions and evolutionary change. The type, speed and scale of genetic change now being undertaken will affect the dynamics of biological systems, ecology and evolution, at their very basis. Changes that cannot be assessed in advance will progressively propagate through the biosphere. The pattern of those changes cannot be expected to fit in with what we already know. The changes we are making will propagate with their own novel dynamics and the outcomes will be far- reaching. The only thing we can know with certainty is that we do not know, and cannot in principle know, what the character of the ultimate outcome will be, except that it will be different from anything that we are familiar with. Using an analogy to stereotypical gender relationships, an analogy that I think is fully justified here : Mankind will be left trying to beat Nature at her own game, playing according to rules that have been imposed with the express aim of exercising unprecedented power over her. She will wait, and when she speaks back in the new language which has been created for her, Mankind will have already lost what would have been of the greatest value. Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 1 17:09:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA28730 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:09:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA27726; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:57:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.cyberhighway.net (smtp1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.33]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA27305 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:54:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199904012154.QAA27305@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 16532 invoked from network); 1 Apr 1999 14:57:25 -0700 Received: from ts2-19.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO ?209.161.18.170?) (209.161.18.170) by smtp2.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 1 Apr 1999 14:57:25 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 14:56:40 -0700 Subject: Re: rather appropriate (animal topic) From: "Pam DeTray" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 517 Anita, I liked the book very much, and looked forward to seeing the movie--until I heard it was a Robert Redford project. As I read, I kept seeing Helen Mirren in the lead female role, and was disappointed to hear that that role would be played by a much younger actress. It won't be something I'll choose for an evening's entertainment, but I did love the book. I believe there are more than one "horse whisperer" in this country--there's a man down in southeast Idaho who's been featured on the news several times since the movie was released. What a wonderful time in history to be alive, when the spirit of animals is recognized even in mainstream media. When I contemplate the future consciousness level of our children and grandchildren, just a few generations down the road, it boggles my mind nearly as much as my first consciousness of the concept of infinity. Pam DeTray psdetray@cyberhighway.net ---------- >From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" >Has anyone read the book (different from the movie I'm told) _The >Horse Whisperer_ (at least I think that's the title, it might be some >variation of that). I've seen it in the books-on-animals section in >Barnes and Noble. I haven't read it properly yet, but I've read a >lot of it in snatches on outings to the book store. It's wonderful >and totally inspiring as regards Martha's post below. It's the story >of a man who has an unbelievable communication not only with horses >but he later extended it deer and I don't know who else. It's a >testimony to the sensitivity and awareness in animals most people >never give a second thought too. It's also written in a very real, >down-to-earth manner. This is the real life experience of one >unusual man. Check it out. Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 2 00:27:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA05864 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:27:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA03619; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:15:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ark.com (mars.ark.com [209.53.216.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA29186 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 23:31:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.53.216.81] (io2p19.ark.com [209.53.216.81]) by ark.com (8.9.3/8.5local) with SMTP id UAA14870 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 20:34:42 -0800 Message-Id: <199904020434.UAA14870@ark.com> Subject: It's that time again Date: Thu, 1 Apr 99 20:36:22 -0800 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Lang Price To: "BD forum" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 518 April 1 Today we stirred barrel compound through our flow form and spread with wisks over our 5 acre veggie patch and 15 acre hay fields. The flow form ran all night under a full moon to catch the vibes. The fields were disced in the warm Vancouver Island sunshine. Our crew is coming in Monday for the first spring planting. This is farming and I love it. Eleven years and more to come. If your in the area April 24 drop by, check out our farm and listen to Gunther Hauk discuss "the plight of the Bees" Bee there From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 2 00:27:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA05872 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:27:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA03581; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:15:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA07211 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:38:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp309.cy-net.net [208.21.195.118]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA02736 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:41:16 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7C63.A3C11860@FLYLO>; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:18:20 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7C63.A3C11860@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: rather appropriate (animal topic) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:18:15 -0600 Encoding: 42 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 519 There are a couple of 'gentling' training groups. The Mallon Method is one, who also 'whispers' to communicate with horses and llamas and other stock they're trying to teach. Also, someone called Pony Boy has written two training books, one geared for teenagers mostly, and he uses quietude and horse 'sense' to train both horse and rider. He's been interviewed on Talk Spot and comes across as very sensible. When asked if he'd seen/ read Horse Whisperer, he replied it would be judgmental for him to do so. I read HW awhile back also the next one by same author called The Loop. (About trapping wolves.) If HW movie differs wildly from the book, imagine how much the book (fiction after all) must differ from the person they're trying to portray. A long time ago, I was with my Dad (I was pretty little) and an old cowboy showed us a trick he used to judge which horse he wants to start training. Now this man was a holdover from the Goodnight Trail days, and I loved to listen to his stories. We all went into the corral with some yearling colts and squatted down and just talked like they weren't there. This guy had picked up some pebbles and was casually tossing them from hand to hand while we all 'hunkered down'. As soon as the horses settled down and stopped showing us their haunches, he watched which ones were turned toward us, ears pricked and which were looking for a way out. He'd take a stone and just flip it off to the side, or in the middle of the ring. Two horses out of the 10 or so were curious enough and fearless of us enough to walk over to see what he was doing. he stood up, still tossing the stones, and they didn't booger at all. We all walked out and he said those were the two he'd start with, they let their intelligence overrule their first fear and that was the first break he looked for. he had a cute story that took me years to figure out. When asked how he got his horses SO BIG, (Quarter horses that are draft sized), he said he has a secret way of going out to the feed trough and picking up some of the feed and rubbing it between their eyes. Well, everyone thought it was something in the rubbing. Years later it dawned on me, he said PICK FEED UP OUT OF THE TROUGH, so it meant that he merely kept feed out free choice. Speaking of animals,, Annie just kidded with twin bucks. I had doelings sold of course, but she's proud as punch over them anyhow. So am I, even if it is an April Fool joke on me. (She kidded but I'm the one covered with amniotic fluid. Why is this stuff so astringent?) Happily going in to shower, martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 2 00:27:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA05880 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:27:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA03513; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:14:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06025 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:20:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp309.cy-net.net [208.21.195.118]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00079 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:23:33 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7C61.2EF48000@FLYLO>; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:00:45 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7C61.2EF48000@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: coffee Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:48:59 -0600 Encoding: 8 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 520 Thanks Guillermo! I'm in Texas, sorta South/Central. And I have 3 citrus trees and a dwarf red banana under greenhouse so I think the coffee might just work in there too. As long as they don't get really tall, that is. All we had in the way of winter was 'light frost', not hardly enough to wrap pipes, but this has been an unusual winter. We can count on anywhere from dips into the low twenties some winters. I think Ron's Exotics is all under glass in Illinois, tho. martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 2 03:15:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA07187 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 03:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA13374; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 03:01:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.243]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA08238 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 01:20:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from slip202-135-86-213.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-213.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.213]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA64972 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 06:23:26 GMT Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 06:23:26 GMT Message-Id: <199904020623.GAA64972@out5.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: RE: rather appropriate (animal topic) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 521 While on this topic of being 'in touch' with animals, I would welcome suggestions of what to do about rats? The ones we have are gray, quite bueatiful really, and in the last few years have become more bold and more in number. They spend the night (and some of the day) climbing thru the banana trees. I think the reason for their increase is because the cat we now have does not seem to be interested in catching them. My question is, given the bad press that rats have got I tend to want to eradicate them. On the other hand, if they are healthy enough I don't really mind. What suggestions does anyone have? Lynton From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 2 08:20:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA09198 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:20:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24830; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:08:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24724 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:05:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.17]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:11:48 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:09:16 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Perennial Vegetable Seed Company Catalog now online Message-ID: <1E9C3FA16E2976F685256747004836B6.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 522 To: NE community food systems cc: Eric Toensmeier , Gita A Mann Subject: Perennial Vegetable Seed Company Catalog now online If you want to be happy for a year, plant a garden. If you want to be happy for a lifetime, plant perennial vegetables... The 1999 Perennial Vegetable Seed Company catalog is now available on-line at http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~trf/pvsc99.html About PVSC: Our goal is to introduce the public to a diversity of perennial vegetables. These plants have mostly been neglected as food plants, because they do not fit well into annual cropping systems. However, many are low-maintenance, virtually trouble-free crops which provide food year after year! There are perennial vegetables for all occasions, from formal border and herb gardens, to the shade of fruit and nut trees, to naturalizing in your backyard prairie, forest, or wetland. A great diversity of perennial vegetable species exist. Some have been cultivated for centuries, some are wild, and some are only now being developed as crops. As PVSC grows, we will offer more and more species, many of which are not commercially available in North America. This year we are growing out improved Groundnut (Apios americana), as well as Sea Beet (Beta vulgaris maritima), the perennial ancestor of beets and chard, Turkish Rocket (Bunias orientalis), a tasty perennial mustard relative, and more. We are hot on the trail of perennial Brassica species, including perennial broccolis and kales, and their wild ancestor, perennial Wild Cabbage (Brassica oleracea). On the new website you can also find out about a special offer on _Edible Forest Gardens_, a new, comprehensive guide to perennial vegetables and perennial polyculture systems. ***************** T. Robert Fetter Research Assistant Dept. of Resource Economics Draper Hall University of Massachusetts Amherst, MA 01003 phone 413-545-5716 fax 413-545-5853 trf@student.umass.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 2 09:02:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09614 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:02:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26484; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:50:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26397 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:48:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.11]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:54:12 -0500 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:51:39 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Unleashed Coyote Captured in Central Park Message-ID: <3417B183B68EA3C385256747004BDBED.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 523 Unleashed Coyote Captured in Central Park By DOUGLAS MARTIN He was first spotted Tuesday night by an alert police officer. The next night, he was spotted again, and dozens of officers were called in to join the search. As a police helicopter buzzed overhead, he emerged from the brambles, running furiously. And then, he was gone. A coyote was loose in Central Park. Far from an April Fool's joke, it almost seemed that some character out of the Old West had stormed into town and a posse had mobilized to bring him to bay. In fact, the coyote was a terrified fugitive, and after the police were able to corner him, he was tranquilized, captured and left to await his fate: a short stay at the Bronx Zoo and a trip to the wilds upstate. Parks officials say that coyotes have become an increasing presence in New York City, particularly in the Bronx, but how one got onto the island of Manhattan -- and more specifically, into Central Park -- remains a mystery. At first, parks and animal care officials were not sure the animal was indeed a coyote, and not some scruffy mutt. But he seemed to match basic descriptions: a burnished silver coat with black detailing, legs and snout the color of a bad sunburn. His tail, which he held low as he ran, was classic coyote. After his capture, animal care officials verified his true identity, and said that he would get a full physical examination sometime Friday. The animal's presence in the shadows of some of New York's grandest apartment buildings shows how coyotes have become a presence in the New York region. Originally, coyotes lived only in Western states, but they have spread to every state except Hawaii. Despite determined efforts by ranchers and others to eradicate them, there are believed to be about twice as many as there were in 1850, according to the May-June issue of Audubon magazine. "Coyotes are spreading not just in ranching country but in metropolises nationwide, from the suburbs of Los Angeles to the streets of New York City," the magazine said. Apparently not content with suburban life, they have increasingly begun to check out the city. Henry Stern, the city's Park Commissioner, said that in recent years, coyotes have been regularly sighted in the Bronx, in Van Cortlandt Park and Woodlawn Cemetery. A coyote that was found dead on the Major Deegan Expressway is now on display -- in a stuffed state -- in the Arsenal, the Park's Department's headquarters in Central Park. Parks officials think it most likely yesterday's coyote came from the Bronx, probably crossing the Henry Hudson Bridge. Adding credence to this theory was a report from a Parks Department office worker that she saw an animal that could have been a coyote on Saturday, at 149th Street and Riverside Drive, a possible route down from the Bronx. How it then may have navigated through the West Side remains a mystery. By 11 A.M. yesterday, a small army of reporters had shown up at a news conference, which had been organized to discuss Easter celebrations in the park, and questioned the Parks Commissioner about the coyote. The news conference came to an abrupt end when word arrived that police and parks workers had the coyote cornered: he had somehow got into the Hallett Nature Sanctuary, a four-acre preserve that is fenced and closed to the public except for occasional guided tours. Everyone who had gathered at the Bethesda Fountain, just north of 72d Street, raced to the southeastern corner of the park. Police cars, park enforcement vehicles and ambulances were everywhere. The coyote darted about, charging in and out of view, as the police repeatedly fired tranquilizer darts that fell well behind the speedy animal. Around noon, the animal dived into a nearby pond. He swam furiously, finally pulling himself onto a rock. At that point, he was hit by a tranquilizer dart, then another. He tore off, finally slowing seven blocks later near a World War I monument on the Mall. He staggered drunkenly, then collapsed. For all the excitement, most Central Park visitors seemed totally oblivious. Joggers jogged, ice skaters skated and people lined up for hot dogs. A man with a golden cocker spaniel nodded and walked silently on after asking what all the commotion was about. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 2 09:30:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA10017 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:30:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27582; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:18:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27407 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:14:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00ABC2DF@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 9:17:55 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 2 Apr 99 09:17:50 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 2 Apr 99 09:17:42 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:17:38 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: rather appropriate (animal topic) Priority: normal In-reply-to: <01BE7C63.A3C11860@FLYLO> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1787D567D1E@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 524 Martha, thanks for the stories. Very nice. And congratulations on your new kids. I just wanted to verify about the book. The one I'm talking about is a real life story. The best that I can figure is there are two similar books, one fiction (from which the movie follows) and the other one which maybe titled more like, "The Man Who Talks To Horses," or some such thing. I just can't remember exactly. Anyway, the only reason I found out about this book in the first place is that I heard the guy interviewed on NPR. He's the guy who helped train Queen Elizebeth's horses. The book is a sort of autobiography -- even has picures. It's the *real life* aspect that I really like. Anita Martha wrote: There are a couple of 'gentling' training groups. The Mallon Method is one, who also 'whispers' to communicate with horses and llamas and other stock they're trying to teach. Also, someone called Pony Boy has written two training books, one geared for teenagers mostly, and he uses quietude and horse 'sense' to train both horse and rider. He's been interviewed on Talk Spot and comes across as very sensible. When asked if he'd seen/ read Horse Whisperer, he replied it would be judgmental for him to do so. I read HW awhile back also the next one by same author called The Loop. (About trapping wolves.) If HW movie differs wildly from the book, imagine how much the book (fiction after all) must differ from the person they're trying to portray. A long time ago, I was with my Dad (I was pretty little) and an old cowboy showed us a trick he used to judge which horse he wants to start training. Now this man was a holdover from the Goodnight Trail days, and I loved to listen to his stories. We all went into the corral with some yearling colts and squatted down and just talked like they weren't there. This guy had picked up some pebbles and was casually tossing them from hand to hand while we all 'hunkered down'. As soon as the horses settled down and stopped showing us their haunches, he watched which ones were turned toward us, ears pricked and which were looking for a way out. He'd take a stone and just flip it off to the side, or in the middle of the ring. Two horses out of the 10 or so were curious enough and fearless of us enough to walk over to see what he was doing. he stood up, still tossing the stones, and they didn't booger at all. We all walked out and he said those were the two he'd start with, they let their intelligence overrule their first fear and that was the first break he looked for. he had a cute story that took me years to figure out. When asked how he got his horses SO BIG, (Quarter horses that are draft sized), he said he has a secret way of going out to the feed trough and picking up some of the feed and rubbing it between their eyes. Well, everyone thought it was something in the rubbing. Years later it dawned on me, he said PICK FEED UP OUT OF THE TROUGH, so it meant that he merely kept feed out free choice. Speaking of animals,, Annie just kidded with twin bucks. I had doelings sold of course, but she's proud as punch over them anyhow. So am I, even if it is an April Fool joke on me. (She kidded but I'm the one covered with amniotic fluid. Why is this stuff so astringent?) Happily going in to shower, martha Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 2 10:42:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10947 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:42:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03053; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:30:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02984 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:30:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([195.44.19.126]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:34:23 +0100 Message-ID: <3704E3F4.4AD0@cwcom.net> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 16:36:20 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: NAS Committee Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 525 Julie - Many thanks for posting the web-page. No further difficulties: I was able to post my message (a bit different from your suggested one, since I'm coming from somewhere else). Whatever the content, I hope a message from across the Atlantic micro-furrows a few brows in NAS ! Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 2 12:04:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA12183 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 12:04:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11273; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 11:52:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10994 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 11:50:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 11:50:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199904021650.LAA10994@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 16091 invoked from network); 2 Apr 1999 16:53:34 -0000 Received: from i48-34-06.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO DAVE) (216.26.61.6) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 1999 16:53:34 -0000 X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: OFF: Excrement Happens Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 526 BDers may be interested in the following off topic =======================Electronic Edition======================== . . . RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY #644 . . ---April 1, 1999--- . . HEADLINES: . . EXCREMENT HAPPENS -- PART 1 . . ========== . . Environmental Research Foundation . . P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403 . . Fax (410) 263-8944; E-mail: erf@rachel.org . . ========== . . All back issues are available by E-mail: send E-mail to . . info@rachel.org with the single word HELP in the message. . . Back issues are also available from http://www.rachel.org. . . To start your own free subscription, send E-mail to . . listserv@rachel.org with the words . . SUBSCRIBE RACHEL-WEEKLY YOUR NAME in the message. . ================================================================= EXCREMENT HAPPENS -- PART 1 Recently we came upon a history of the management of human excreta -- urine and feces -- starting back in the mists of time and working forward to the present day.[1] It turns out that this unlikely topic can tell us something important about the way humans make environmental decisions. For that reason, we're going to recap the story here. The original author, Abby A. Rockefeller, deserves credit for all the original work, though not, of course, blame for any of our lapses or misinterpretations in the retelling. Where we have supplemented Ms. Rockefeller's history with additional facts, they appear inside square brackets. * * * Humans began to lead a settled life, growing crops to supplement hunting and gathering, only about 10,000 years ago. For all time before that, humans "deposited their excreta -- urine and feces -- on the ground, here and there, in the manner of all other land creatures." The soil and its communities (including plants, small animals and microorganisms) captured almost all of the nutrients in animal excrement and recycled them into new components for soil. In this way, the nutrients were endlessly recycled within the soil ecosystem and largely kept out of surface water. As a result, what we call "pure water" is low in nutrients, particularly the major nutrients nitrogen and phosphorus. Because these conditions have existed for a very long time, life in lakes, rivers, and oceans is accustomed to the relative absence of these nutrients. Over the past couple of billion years, life has flourished in this low-nutrient environment, growing complex and interdependent in the process -- an aquatic condition we call "clean" and "healthy." When a body of water is suddenly inundated with nutrients -- especially nitrogen and phosphorus -- things change drastically. One or a few organisms flourish and begin to crowd out the others. We can all recall seeing a body of water that is pea-soup green from overgrowth of algae. Such a water body is clearly sick, choked, its diversity vastly diminished. Today, much of the surface water of the planet is in a state of ill health because of misplaced nutrients. And a main contributing culprit is misplaced human excreta. Long ago, human civilizations split into two camps regarding the management of excreta. Many Asian societies recognized the nutrient value of "night soil" (as it became known). For several thousand years, and up until very recently, Asian agriculture flourished by recycling human wastes into crop land. The opposing camp, particularly in Europe, had ambiguous feelings about human waste -- was it valuable fertilizer or was it a nasty and embarrassing problem to get rid of? most euIn Europe, a pattern evolved: The first stage was urinating and defecating on the ground near dwellings. As population density increased, this became intolerable and the community pit evolved. For privacy, this evolved into the pit privy or "outhouse" -- a privacy structure atop a hole in the ground. Despite what many people may think, the pit privy is not environmentally sound -- it deprives the soil of the nutrients in excrement, and by concentrating wastes it promotes pollution of groundwater by those same nutrients. Before the advent of piped water in the late 18th century, European towns stored excreta in cesspools (lined pits with some drainage of liquids) or in vault privies (tight tanks without any drainage). The "night soil" was removed by "scavengers" and was either taken to farms, or dumped into pits in the ground or into rivers. In general, Europeans never developed a clear and consistent perception of the nutrient value of excrement, as Asians had done. In ancient Rome, the wealthy elite had indoor toilets and running water to remove excrement via sewers. Later, European cities developed crude sewer systems -- usually open gutters but sometimes covered trenches along the center or sides of streets -- though they had no running water until the 18th or even 19th centuries. The putrefying matter in these stagnant ditches did not move until it rained -- thus the name "storm sewers" -- and many cities prohibited the dumping of human wastes into such sewers. With the advent of piped water, things changed dramatically. In this country, the first waterworks was installed in Philadelphia in 1802 and by 1860 136 cities were enjoying piped water systems. By 1880, the number was up to 598. With piped water, per-capita water use increased at least 10-fold, from 3-5 gallons per person per day to 30-50 gallons per person per day or even more. Water piped into homes had to be piped out again. This caused cesspools to overflow, thus increasing the problems of odors and of water-borne diseases. To solve these problems, cesspools were connected to the city's crude sewer systems which ran along the streets. The result was epidemics of cholera. In Paris in 1832, 20,000 people died of cholera. Around the world, the combination of piped water and open sewers has consistently led to outbreaks of cholera. To solve this problem, engineers designed closed sewer systems, pipes using water as the vehicle for carrying away excrement. This solution engendered a debate among engineers: some wanted to return sewage to agricultural land, others argued that "water purifies itself" and wanted to pipe sewage straight into lakes, rivers, and oceans. By 1910, the debate was over and sewage was being dumped into water bodies on a grand scale. In the cities, cholera epidemics abated. However, cities drawing their drinking water downstream from sewage discharges began having outbreaks of typhoid. This engendered another debate: whether to treat sewage before dumping it into water bodies used for drinking, or whether to filter drinking water. Public health officials favored treating sewage before dumping it; sanitary engineers favored dumping sewage raw and filtering water before drinking. The engineers prevailed. As cities began to filter and disinfect their drinking water, typhoid abated. Throughout the 20th century, the U.S. and Europe industrialized rapidly. Industry developed a huge demand for low-cost waste disposal, and sewers were the cheapest place to dump because the public was paying. As the pressure for greater waste disposal capacity increased, industrialized nations allocated vast sums of money to construct centralized sewer systems to serve the combined needs of homes and factories. As a result, the nutrients in excrement became mixed with industrial wastes, many of them toxic. So by the 1950s, essentially every body of water receiving piped wastes was badly polluted with a combination of excessive nutrients and toxicants. This led to a demand to treat wastes before dumping them into water. Thus began the "treatment" phase of the "get rid of it" approach to human waste. As centralized sewer systems evolved, first came "primary treatment." This consists of mechanically screening out the dead cats and other "floatables." All other nutrients and toxic chemicals remain in the waste water that is discharged to a river or ocean. Next came "secondary treatment" which speeds up the biological decomposition of wastes by forcing oxygen into them, by promoting bacterial growth, and by other means. This is an energy-intensive process and therefore expensive. Unfortunately, it, too, leaves many of the nutrients and toxic chemicals in the discharge water. [The Congressional Research Service recently estimated that the federal government spent $69.5 billion on centralized sewage treatment plants, 1973-1999. Despite this huge expenditure, the Congressional Research Service said in 1999, "States report that municipal discharges are the second leading source of water quality impairment in all of the nation's waters (rivers and streams, lakes, and estuaries and coastal waters). Pollutants associated with municipal discharges include nutrients..., bacteria and other pathogens, as well as metals and toxic chemicals from industrial and commercial activities and households."[2]] To the extent that primary and secondary treatment are successful, they move nutrients and toxicants (combined) into a new form: sludge. Sludge is the de-watered, sticky black "cake" created in large quantities by modern sewage treatment plants. Sludge contains everything that can go down the drains in homes and industries and which a treatment plant is able to get back out. In the FEDERAL REGISTER November 9, 1990, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency describes sludge this way: "The chemical composition and biological constituents of the sludge depend upon the composition of the wastewater entering the treatment facilities and the subsequent treatment processes. Typically, these constituents may include volatiles, organic solids, nutrients, disease-causing pathogenic organisms (e.g., bacteria, viruses, etc.), heavy metals and inorganic ions, and toxic organic chemicals from industrial wastes, household chemicals, and pesticides." Industry is currently using 70,000 different chemicals in commercial quantities; any of these may appear in sludge. About 1000 new chemicals come into commercial use each year, so any of these, too, may appear in sludge. A description of the toxicants that may be found in sludge would fill several books. The U.S. General Accounting Office has reported -- not surprisingly -- that municipal sludge contains radioactive wastes (from both medical and military sources).[3] With hundreds of sewage treatment plants producing toxic sludge in mountainous quantities, the next question was, what in the world to do with it? For many years, coastal cities dumped sewage sludge into the oceans, where it created large "dead zones" that could not support marine life. Other communities dumped their sludge into landfills, where it could pollute their groundwater. Still others incinerated their sludge, thus creating serious air pollution problems, then landfilled the remaining ash or simply heaped the ash on the ground for the wind to disperse. In 1988 Congress outlawed the ocean dumping of sewage sludge. At this point, many communities faced a real waste crisis. There was no safe (or even sensible) place to put the mountains of toxic sludge that are generated every day by centralized sewage treatment systems. It was at this point in history that U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) -- feeling tremendous pressure to "solve" the sludge disposal problem -- discovered that sewage sludge is really "night soil" -- the nutrient-rich product that has fertilized crops in Asia for several thousand years. EPA decided that the expedient thing to do with sewage sludge was to plow it into the land. Shortly after 1992, when the ban on ocean dumping went into effect, EPA renamed toxic sludge "beneficial biosolids," and began aggressively campaigning to sell it to the American people as fertilizer. (See REHW #561.) [To be continued] ========== [1] Abby A. Rockefeller, "Civilization and Sludge: Notes on the History of the Management of Human Excreta," CURRENT WORLD LEADERS Vol. 39, No. 6 (December 1996), pgs. 99-113. Ms. Rockefeller is president of the ReSource Institute for Low Entropy Systems, 179 Boylston St., Boston, MA 02130; telephone (617) 524-7258. [2] U.S. General Accounting Office, NUCLEAR REGULATION; ACTION NEEDED TO CONTROL RADIOACTIVE CONTAMINATION AT SEWAGE TREATMENT PLANTS [GAO/RCED-94-133 (Washington, D.C.: U.S. General Accounting Office, May 1994). [3] Claudia Copeland, WASTEWATER TREATMENT: OVERVIEW AND BACKGROUND [98-323 ENR] (Washington, D.C.: Congressional Research service, January 20, 1999). Available at: http://- www.cnie.org/nle/h2o-29.html . Descriptor terms: human waste; history; histories; wastewater treatment; potws; abby a. rockefeller; resource institute; sewage sludge; ################################################################ NOTICE Environmental Research Foundation provides this electronic version of RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY free of charge even though it costs our organization considerable time and money to produce it. We would like to continue to provide this service free. You could help by making a tax-deductible contribution (anything you can afford, whether $5.00 or $500.00). Please send your tax-deductible contribution to: Environmental Research Foundation, P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403-7036. Please do not send credit card information via E-mail. For further information about making tax-deductible contributions to E.R.F. by credit card please phone us toll free at 1-888-2RACHEL, or at (410) 263-1584, or fax us at (410) 263-8944. --Peter Montague, Editor ################################################################ ======================== David Robison Stellar Processes From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 2 13:43:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA13716 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 13:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22926; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 13:30:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22708 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 13:29:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00AC03A9@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 13:32:22 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 2 Apr 99 13:32:17 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 2 Apr 99 13:32:03 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 13:31:56 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF: Wheat Breeding Partnerships on the Horizon Priority: normal In-reply-to: <37050279.43BDFA5@digisys.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <17CBAAD7128@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 527 >BOZEMAN -- It's only a matter of time before Montana State >University and corporations work together to breed new wheats with >characteristics only dreamed of before. Ugh! Yeah, only in our nightmares! Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 2 15:36:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA16044 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05487; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:25:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05335 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:24:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLYLO (ppp200.cy-net.net [208.21.195.9]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23890 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 14:27:27 -0600 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE7D10.7554E800@FLYLO>; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 13:55:25 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE7D10.7554E800@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: surprise cows Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 13:54:43 -0600 Encoding: 18 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 528 I don't have cows. Haven't had a herd in 2 1/2 years. But with all the talk about cows and their 'etheric energy' not to mention the valuable manure spreaders, I was regretting having sold them all. So, I had to wonder when I came home today to find about 65 grown cows, calves, the assorted tag-along bulls, all standing IN EXACTLY THE SPOT where I intend to clear off for a hay crop this year. Oh, if their owner doesn't get out and patch the holey fence before I mow and find the 'leak', I'll do it, but I'm going to let them donate some of their ethericness to my soil for awhile first. That bit of joy counteracted the fact that the parts store can't seem to locate my backordered fuel line, and they sold me the wrong filter for my tractor. (major Spring time sigh here). Parts men: They see a woman at their counter and panic. "Just sell her something and get her out of here." Me; standing there telling them that it was not going to fit, and they; insisting that it was the right part for the job. Oh well, still too much to do to sit and gripe long about it. martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 3 04:27:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA26585 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 04:27:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA21327; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 04:15:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA21247 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 04:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([203.96.104.44]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990403091718.CFM5703635.mta2-rme@default> for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:17:18 +1200 Message-ID: <3705DCED.538D@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 21:18:37 +1200 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Study ? whats happehing? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 529 Dear Study circle What has happened to our studing. Hav'nt seen any discussion for alooooooong time. my notes says that we are up to L3.2 page 56 and there is still 220 pages to go. Hugh LOvel said that Peter Procter said that we have only 10 years left to teach tthe rest of the world about Biodynamics? Time to mve on Me thinks> It would be nice to finish this study before the new millenium The last study posts were Feb 28 Mar 1. Cheers Tony Robinson Rambler Flowers NewZealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 3 10:32:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29112 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 10:32:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01867; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 10:17:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01785 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 10:16:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([195.44.17.149]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sat, 3 Apr 1999 16:20:31 +0100 Message-ID: <370631B8.7E88@cwcom.net> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 16:20:24 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Re: surprise cows and auto parts Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 530 Martha - just to reassure you, the attitude and inefficiency of parts salesmen seems to be universal: either it's gender-independent or their lack of attention to detail extends to not noticing my full beard. Microfiche or computer diagrams don't seem to have improved things, either. As to surprise cows, I reckon deep hoofprints in my lawn rather outweigh any ethericity that they bring with them (two dozen cows stomping around for a couple of hours leave an awful lot of holes !). Tony N-S. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Apr 3 12:58:01 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00310 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:57:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA19114 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:51:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA19987; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 11:50:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19932 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 11:49:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from digisys.net (modem14.digisys.net [205.138.110.63]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA26375; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 10:49:12 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <37065561.9A0FD7A0@digisys.net> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 10:52:33 -0700 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jacqui Robertson - Chaplaincy CC: "bdnow@envirolink.org" , CSA-L Subject: OFF: Re: health farms information References: <21681CD5813@dundee-dj.dundee.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 531 Hello Fiona, I'm not in a position to answer all your questions so am posting your request to a couple of lists in the hope that several people will provide information. Regards, Pat Hironimus Jacqui Robertson - Chaplaincy wrote: > hello, my name is Fiona, my Mum contacted you a short while ago with > regard to a project I am undertaking in Spain. > > We have to start up a business from scratch and create a full > business plan for it. We chose to do a Health Farm due to the lack > of them in Spain. I would be grateful if you could answer the > following questions for me. I appreciate that some will be difficult > or impossible for you to answer, but any assistance and information > would be a great help. If you can think of anything over and above > these questions that should be taken into account for my business > plan, please do not hesitate to add it on. > > 1. What types of insurance policies do you need? > > 2. are there contracts between the client and the health farm, and > what do these consist of. (a sample copy would be of great help). > > 3. Should the Trades Description Act play a large role. > > 4. What types and how many staff would be required to run a small > Health Farm. > > 5. How do you work out ratio of staff to prospective clients. > > 6.What types of advertising should be considered. > > 7. Who are your target customers. > > 8. Is the equipment you use bought or leased, and do you use several > suppliers or use one main one. > > 9. Annual expenditure on equipment, or if possible individual prices > of equipment. > > 10. Do you use any special offers to attract clients? How often? > What type? and what is the most popular? > > 11. With regard to salaries, what are the average salaries of > different staff members. > > 12. Are their individual programmes for clients and how do you assess > their individual needs? > > 13. Are medical certificates required for clients previous to them > booking with you. > > 14. Is their a dress code for staff and clients. > > 15. What security measures are taken for client belongings? e.g. > safes etc, safe per client or one big safe for all etc. > > 16. Are their confidentiality clauses, for example if a famous person > is staying. > > 17. Are their guarantees for customers, what if they don't like the > results. > > 18. Is their any type of entertainment put on for the customers. > > 19. What are the average running costs (we have to do the accounts, > profit and loss etc and have no idea what this would be) > > 20. What are the legal requirements? > > Thank you for your help with this project it is much appreciated. > > I leave for Spsin on the 14 April 1999, but my Mum will forward on > any information you give. > > Hope to hear from you soon and have a happy Easter. > > Fiona Robertson From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 3 12:59:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00350 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:59:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11307; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:47:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11171 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:46:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (modem14.digisys.net [205.138.110.63]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA26375; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 10:49:12 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <37065561.9A0FD7A0@digisys.net> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 10:52:33 -0700 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jacqui Robertson - Chaplaincy CC: "bdnow@envirolink.org" , CSA-L Subject: OFF: Re: health farms information References: <21681CD5813@dundee-dj.dundee.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 532 Hello Fiona, I'm not in a position to answer all your questions so am posting your request to a couple of lists in the hope that several people will provide information. Regards, Pat Hironimus Jacqui Robertson - Chaplaincy wrote: > hello, my name is Fiona, my Mum contacted you a short while ago with > regard to a project I am undertaking in Spain. > > We have to start up a business from scratch and create a full > business plan for it. We chose to do a Health Farm due to the lack > of them in Spain. I would be grateful if you could answer the > following questions for me. I appreciate that some will be difficult > or impossible for you to answer, but any assistance and information > would be a great help. If you can think of anything over and above > these questions that should be taken into account for my business > plan, please do not hesitate to add it on. > > 1. What types of insurance policies do you need? > > 2. are there contracts between the client and the health farm, and > what do these consist of. (a sample copy would be of great help). > > 3. Should the Trades Description Act play a large role. > > 4. What types and how many staff would be required to run a small > Health Farm. > > 5. How do you work out ratio of staff to prospective clients. > > 6.What types of advertising should be considered. > > 7. Who are your target customers. > > 8. Is the equipment you use bought or leased, and do you use several > suppliers or use one main one. > > 9. Annual expenditure on equipment, or if possible individual prices > of equipment. > > 10. Do you use any special offers to attract clients? How often? > What type? and what is the most popular? > > 11. With regard to salaries, what are the average salaries of > different staff members. > > 12. Are their individual programmes for clients and how do you assess > their individual needs? > > 13. Are medical certificates required for clients previous to them > booking with you. > > 14. Is their a dress code for staff and clients. > > 15. What security measures are taken for client belongings? e.g. > safes etc, safe per client or one big safe for all etc. > > 16. Are their confidentiality clauses, for example if a famous person > is staying. > > 17. Are their guarantees for customers, what if they don't like the > results. > > 18. Is their any type of entertainment put on for the customers. > > 19. What are the average running costs (we have to do the accounts, > profit and loss etc and have no idea what this would be) > > 20. What are the legal requirements? > > Thank you for your help with this project it is much appreciated. > > I leave for Spsin on the 14 April 1999, but my Mum will forward on > any information you give. > > Hope to hear from you soon and have a happy Easter. > > Fiona Robertson From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 3 17:04:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA03475 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:04:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28454; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 16:51:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28405 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 16:50:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from digisys.net (modem50.digisys.net [205.138.110.99]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA22880 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 14:54:15 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <37068ED0.D10A8B9B@digisys.net> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 14:57:37 -0700 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" Subject: OFF: Easter Message Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 533 Happy Easter Everyone ... Keep your hands dirty and your heart happy. Pat Hironimus From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 4 12:27:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16100 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 12:27:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22115; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 12:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21872 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 12:11:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.9]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 12:17:38 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 12:15:01 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: April 04, 1999 - April 10, 1999 Message-ID: <2A1E68954F3417CB8525674900593D24.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA21874 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 534 Calendar of the Soul [April 04, 1999 - April 10, 1999] Easter (April 7-13) SPRING When out of world-wide spaces The sun speaks to the human mind, And gladness from the depths of soul Becomes, in seeing, one with light, Then rising from the sheath of self, Thoughts soar to distances of space And dimly bind The human being to the spirit's life. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Wenn aus den Weltenweiten Die Sonne spricht zum Menschensinn Und Freude aus den Seelentiefen Dem Licht sich eint im Schauen, Dann ziehen aus der Selbstheit Hülle Gedanken in die Raumesfernen Und binden dumpf Des Menschen Wesen an des Geistes Sein. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+01 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 4 17:55:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA18823 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 17:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14580; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 17:44:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f205.hotmail.com [209.185.130.115]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14389 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 17:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 91992 invoked by uid 0); 4 Apr 1999 21:45:12 -0000 Message-ID: <19990404214512.91991.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 206.74.2.111 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 04 Apr 1999 14:45:11 PDT X-Originating-IP: [206.74.2.111] From: "Connie Gilbert" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: cow horns Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 16:45:11 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 535 Thanks a bunch, I will try to get a couple of cow horns. You are in Blairsville? Small world, my parents live in Hiawassee. I'm in Tennessee and don't get to see them much. It is a beautiful area there, in the GA mountains. Thanks again Lynnaea >From: Hugh Lovel >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Re: cow horns >Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:25:06 -0400 > >>Does anyone know where I can get some cow horns? I really don't want to >>get them from a slaughterhouse if I can find a better source. I almost >>had a couple, a neighbors bull died of natural causes, but he decided he >>wanted the skull and horns for a decoration. >> >>Lynnaea >> >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >Bull horns wouldn't do. They aren't nearly as heavy and thus as resonant as >cows' horns. > >You may obtain these from the Josephine Porter Institute of Applied >Biodynamics (JPI) P. O. Box 133, Woolwine, VA 24185, 540 930 2463. > >Best > >Hugh Lovel >Blairsville, Georgia > >"No man can hurt another man without condemning himself to greater hurt." >--Walter Russell > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 5 13:53:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA07460 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 13:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11301; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 13:41:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f73.hotmail.com [209.185.131.136]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10935 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 13:38:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 76903 invoked by uid 0); 5 Apr 1999 17:41:50 -0000 Message-ID: <19990405174150.76902.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.230.25.45 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 05 Apr 1999 10:41:49 PDT X-Originating-IP: [205.230.25.45] From: "Connie Gilbert" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Spirituality and Ag Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 12:41:49 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 536 Thanks Anita for posting this link. I found the poem he wrote on love to be very uplifting. Blessings Lynnaea >From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" . Anyway, for some more info on this, please check >out the website put up by Patrick Madden (a former econ prof who >worked at Penn State for 20 years), who is also one of the main >people of this group: > >http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/patrickmadden/ > >Hope you enjoy, >Anita > > >Anita Graf >313-F Conner Hall >Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics >University of Georgia >Athens, GA 30602-7509 >(706) 542-1915 phone >(706) 542-0739 fax >agraf@agecon.uga.edu > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 5 14:11:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA07908 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:11:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14132; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 13:59:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13797 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 13:56:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00AD5D3E@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:00:19 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 5 Apr 99 14:00:13 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 5 Apr 99 13:59:51 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 13:59:45 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Spirituality and Ag Priority: normal In-reply-to: <19990405174150.76902.qmail@hotmail.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1C433F86A80@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 537 Thanks Anita for posting this link. I found the poem he wrote on love to be very uplifting. Blessings Lynnaea I'm so glad you liked it Lynnaea. For anyone interested in the Declaration of Interdependence I mentioned earlier, check at the following web page: http://www.uwex.edu/ces/cced/staffgc.html Sincerely, Anita >From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" . Anyway, for some more info on this, please check >out the website put up by Patrick Madden (a former econ prof who >worked at Penn State for 20 years), who is also one of the main >people of this group: > >http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/patrickmadden/ > >Hope you enjoy, >Anita > > >Anita Graf >313-F Conner Hall >Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics >University of Georgia >Athens, GA 30602-7509 >(706) 542-1915 phone >(706) 542-0739 fax >agraf@agecon.uga.edu > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 5 14:20:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA08082 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:20:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15774; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:08:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f99.hotmail.com [209.185.131.162]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15233 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:05:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 39850 invoked by uid 0); 5 Apr 1999 18:08:06 -0000 Message-ID: <19990405180806.39849.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.230.25.27 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 05 Apr 1999 11:08:06 PDT X-Originating-IP: [205.230.25.27] From: "Connie Gilbert" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Study ? whats happehing? Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 13:08:06 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 538 Hmmm, I joined after the last posting on the study. Can anyone fill me in on what book it is you are studying? I would like to learn, does anyone have some of the old posts? Lynnaea >From: Rambler >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Study ? whats happehing? >Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 21:18:37 +1200 > >Dear Study circle What has happened to our studing. Hav'nt seen any >discussion for alooooooong time. my notes says that we are up to L3.2 >page 56 and there is still 220 pages to go. >Hugh LOvel said that Peter Procter said that we have only 10 years left >to teach tthe rest of the world about Biodynamics? >Time to mve on Me thinks> It would be nice to finish this study before >the new millenium >The last study posts were Feb 28 Mar 1. >Cheers >Tony Robinson >Rambler Flowers >NewZealand > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Apr 5 14:35:59 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA08367 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:35:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA15417 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:29:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA11852; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 13:26:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11724 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 13:25:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from digisys.net (modem202.digisys.net [205.218.31.75]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA05830; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 12:25:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <370900FB.2298BB69@digisys.net> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 12:29:15 -0600 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" , CSA-L Subject: OFF:Organically Grown Hops Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 539 A few months back someone was looking for hops for the micro-brewing industry. I just received a call regarding a grower of organically grown (non-certified) hops. If you are interested please contact the grower: Tim Adair 1134 1st Ave. West Kalispell, MT 59901 E-mail: adair@digisys.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 5 14:36:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA08377 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:36:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18658; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:24:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18292 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:22:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from digisys.net (modem202.digisys.net [205.218.31.75]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA05830; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 12:25:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <370900FB.2298BB69@digisys.net> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 12:29:15 -0600 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" , CSA-L Subject: OFF:Organically Grown Hops Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 540 A few months back someone was looking for hops for the micro-brewing industry. I just received a call regarding a grower of organically grown (non-certified) hops. If you are interested please contact the grower: Tim Adair 1134 1st Ave. West Kalispell, MT 59901 E-mail: adair@digisys.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 5 15:39:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09752 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:39:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA29037; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from news1.infoave.net (news1.InfoAve.Net [165.166.15.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28636 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:24:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by news1.infoave.net; id AA14922; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:27:21 -0400 Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:27:21 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990405152411.084ff5d6@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Dandelion picking Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 541 Dear Friends, Since the dandelion season is already upon us, the following is a preview from the upcoming newsletter of the Josephine Porter Institute for Applied Bio-Dynamics. As you may know, JPI is a non-profit institution that manufactures large quantities of preps for biodynamic practitioners in the U.S. and beyond. For this we require large quantities of dandelion blossoms, which are not available commercially. Therefore, to supplement what we can harvest on our own, we depend on volunteer pickers around the country. Abigail Porter (daughter of the late Josephine Porter, who carried the preparation-making responsibility in North America for many decades) is one of our most experienced dandelion pickers and she shares some of her experience in this article. (Note that we require fully dried blossoms and that 4 pounds fresh equals about 1 pound dry.) Thank you. Malcolm Ian Gardner JPI, P.O. Box 133, Woolwine, VA 24185 (ph/fax: 540-930-2463). EFFICIENT DANDELION PICKING or How to Pick When Your Back Hurts by Abigail Porter I have always liked picking dandelions, enjoying the sights, sounds, and smells and accomplishing an important task at the same time. I appreciated it even more when I left the farm and my jewelry work took me inside for most of the day. It was good to be outside in the warm sun. I enjoyed the colors, the cool breeze caressing my skin, and the fragrance of approaching summer. Several years ago, a lower back injury made picking dandelions a painful experience. Two hours of picking left me incapacitated for three days. I realized if I was going to pick at all, I would have to find a better way to pick, a faster way with less bending over. How could I stay relatively pain-free by picking only 15-20 at a time (45 minutes was the outer tolerance limit), yet pick the same quantity of flowers as in earlier years? I discovered three primary keys to efficient, pain-free picking: (1) learn to "see" only the appropriate blossoms, (2) pick on consecutive days, (3) pick late in the morning. While observing a friend who helped me pick, I noticed that it took her much longer to decide which blossoms to pick than to actually pick them. So the first key is to learn to "see" only the appropriate blossoms so one is not distracted by unsuitable flowers. To do this one must first study the differences between flowers in various stages of openness. With a practice of touching and looking, a blossom's successive growth stages become readily apparent. By placing the index finger and middle finger under the blossom head (my preferred way of picking), the thumb is free to brush across the top of the flower to feel its texture. On the first day of opening there is a tight, relatively hard button of darker colored petals in the blossom's center (a bullseye). The flower is somewhat flat. On the second day the button is softer, paler in color, much less distinctly formed. The blossom is more open with a convex surface. On the third day the color is more uniform, all the petals are very soft, and the blossom shape is more like an umbrella. Once the look and feel of first-day blossoms are memorized, one is drawn only to them, as iron to a magnet. Now it is easy to quickly select only the perfect flowers for picking. I pick only the first-day flowers as they are the easiest to see and usually dry well. Second day or older flowers may turn to unuseable gray fluff as they dry. First day flowers that open late in the afternoon will frequently have many first-day characteristics on their second day. These qualify as first-day blossoms if the button is still distinct. Their second day is their first morning in the sun. Efficient dandelion picking requires picking on consecutive days. Picking stimulates more buds to open more quickly. On the first day blossoms may be few and far between. Lots of bending (ouch!) with little to show for the effort. The second day is more productive. By the third or fourth day of picking, I am usually rewarded with an abundance of beautiful, pickable blossoms. There are so many perfect blossoms that I progress on hands and knees from patch to patch, picking with all fingers, quickly and easily filling both hands. If you are unable to schedule consecutive morning picking, then at least on days one and two, pick and discard old blossoms in the afternoon or whenever time allows. These blossoms can fertilize the ground or your compost pile. The morning of the third day will be great picking. For example, you might plan to pick most flowers on a Saturday because it is a flower day or because that is when you will have time. Start the mini-picks on Thursday even if only for ten or fifteen minutes. That way, Saturday's picking will be so much more enjoyable and rewarding. Picking late in the morning decreases required work time. I discovered if I started to pick early (9 am), I would have to pick the same area two or three times because more blossoms opened as the day's light and warmth progressed. Since I can only pick comfortably for about thirty minutes, I wait until 10:30 to 11:00 to start. This way, I can pick twice as many flowers in the same length of time, with less bending over, and still get most of the flowers that have opened before noon. I start the day's picking in areas that have been sunny the longest, scheduling shaded areas for last as their flowers will be slower to open. Efficient dandelion picking can be valuable even if your back doesn't hurt. The experience is made more enjoyable and perhaps even possible if your time is very limited. These observations were made in northeast Pennsylvania in a cool spring. The farm was located in a valley, approx. 500 ft. above sea level, with frequent nighttime, heavy fog and dew lasting late into morning. Picking times might be different in a hot, dry climate, different altitude or weather conditions. Additional Notes ---I like to wait until dew is off before I pick because the flowers dry better. ---Containers: I prefer picking into a paper bag with the top edge rolled down. ---We dried the flowers by spreading them on newspaper laid on the floor of a hot attic. However, a better support for the flowers is fiberglass screening raised at least several inches from the floor, allowing more thorough air flow. ---Even the best picked dandelions can turn to a gray and unuseable fluff if not properly dried. Spreading them out to dry immediately after picking gives best results. Blossom color and likely its quality also are better if drying occurs quickly. One summer, just as the blossoms were almost dry, it rained and the blossoms absorbed enough moisture from the air to become rubbery again. This sequence repeated itself several times. During that time I forgot to check blossom status, and when I finally did so they had turned to fluff. ---We have several varieties of dandelions. The tall ones, 1 - 2 ft. tall, are easiest to pick. But, even the shorter ones will grow tall in rich, moist, uncompacted soil. Scatter seeds where you want to pick. ---After we sold the animals on the farm, the dandelion population in the pastured fields decreased greatly, while the neighbors' lawns had many dandelions even without any cows or goats. The decrease on our land occurred because the grass and weeds were no longer being mowed or grazed and thus grew tall enough to crowd and shade out the dandelions. Dandelions like sun. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 5 18:21:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA13754 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 18:21:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21253; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 18:08:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07910 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp55.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.155]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA17976 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:28:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <017501be7fa3$48291000$754b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie M." To: "BD NOW LIST" Subject: OFF: Mega Hog Farm - Rosebud Reservation Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:31:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 542 Dear Friends, The URL for the article below came across SANET today. Our community successfully foiled an attempt by the Belgium "family" operation, Seghers, to locate a mega-hog farm here in Marshall Twp., SW Wisconsin, so this issue is close to my heart. I know it can be stopped... I cannot think of a better place to apply pressure than in the protection of sacred ground. Thanks, Julie "The Earth is not dying - it is being killed. And the people who are killing it have names and addresses." - U. Utah Phillips Despite Stink, Hog Farm Proceeds on Tribal Land By William Claiborne Washington Post Staff Writer Sunday, April 4, 1999; Page A03 What eventually will become the third-largest hog farm in the world is rising on tribal trust land near a remote Indian reservation in South Dakota in spite of strong opposition by the federal government, environmentalists, animal rights activists and a coalition of tribal members and other local residents. Work is underway on cavernous feeding barns for the $105 million facility, which is designed to house 859,000 hogs near the Rosebud Sioux Reservation 150 miles southeast of Rapid City. The work resumed last month after a federal judge accused the federal government's top Indian official of abusing his discretionary powers and acting in an "arbitrary and capricious" manner when he ordered work stopped on environmental grounds. Kevin Gover, assistant interior secretary for Indian affairs, may have engaged in "affirmative misconduct" when he unilaterally voided a lease between Rosebud tribal leaders and a Nebraska-based pork company for the hog operation, said U.S. District Judge Charles Kornmann of Pierre, S.D. The pork company, Sun Prairie, and Rosebud tribal council members say the facility will bring more than 200 jobs to the reservation, which has an 85 percent unemployment rate and is one of the poorest in the nation. By situating the farm on tribal land beyond state jurisdiction, Sun Prairie and its parent company, Bell Farms of Wahpeton, N.D., circumvented a law approved by South Dakota voters last year that prohibits corporate farming ventures, a gesture toward preservation of the family farm. In its opinion, the court said that if the Bureau of Indian Affairs was allowed to unilaterally block such business arrangements, lenders would be loath to invest in economic development projects in Indian country because of a lack of certainty in the deals. As a result, tribes would suffer, he said. "What the BIA is attempting to do here causes the court to recall promises [of tribal sovereignty] made years ago by the same federal agency to Native Americans," Kornmann said. On March 2, the judge granted a preliminary injunction barring the Interior Department and other hog farm opponents from interfering with the project and, in a scathing attack on Gover's decision, said the BIA head's motivations for canceling the lease "remain uncertain at this time." Opponents of the farm are appealing Kornmann's decision, but in the meantime, structural work on feeding barns is proceeding at a brisk pace and Sun Prairie expects to begin trucking in hogs soon. Kornmann said he was particularly angered because Gover voided the lease just one day after Justice Department lawyers filed a legal brief arguing that the environmental assessment was in compliance with federal environmental and historic preservation laws. The judge cited the BIA turnaround as proof of Gover's arbitrary and capricious action. Gover said he was aware of what the Justice Department attorneys were arguing, but he contended that the case was still in a preliminary stage and that "upon further reflection I concluded that the environmental assessment was inadequate." Gover said it was important to establish the environmental impact of the entire hog-producing operation and not just the first phase, which consists of three finishing sites used to fatten pigs for market. Each site will have 24 buildings housing 48,000 pigs. There will be 13 sites in all, including facilities where sows will be bred and give birth, but Kornmann's order affects only the first phase. "We knew there was going to be a problem with the [environmental assessment] and that it would probably lose, so we thought it was the better part of valor to withdraw and cancel the lease," Gover said. "Lord knows, with 85 percent unemployment on that reservation, the last thing we wanted to see happen was for the court to stop the project." Environmentalists and some tribe members contend that the 1,200-acre hog farm will produce as much effluent as a city of 3 million people, resulting in not only the possible contamination of underground aquifers but serious air pollution from ammonia and methane gas rising from evaporation ponds into which pig excrement will be pumped. In addition, the effects on wildlife in the area, including the largest concentration of prairie dogs in the United States, have not been adequately studied, according to critics. Some tribal members contend that a historic Indian trail, ancient Sioux grave sites and other cultural artifacts would be disturbed by the hog operation. "Our land will be destroyed. Our air will be polluted. Our way of life will be ruined," said Oleata Mednansky, a member of the Rosebud Sioux tribe and co-chairman of the opposition group, Concerned Rosebud Area Citizens. "Economic development is something we need, but not the kind that will destroy our land, air, water, wildlife and historical artifacts." Mednansky said the hog factory is being built on an ancient Sioux trail on which Chief Sitting Bull is said to have regularly traveled. "My grandmother was born on that trail, and we have always considered it to be sacred," she said. "This project was approved so hurriedly that our people never got a chance to express their views." Several protest demonstrations have been held, including one in which actor James Cromwell, an animal rights activist who starred in the movie "Babe," complained that the farm will wreak environmental havoc in the area. However, Debra Thomas, who as the Denver-based team leader of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's office of partnerships and regulatory assistance studied the potential environmental impact, said if Sun Prairie constructs and operates the hog factory according to the specifications it has submitted, "it would be unlikely there would be any adverse environmental impact on ground and surface water." She said the EPA is still evaluating the potential for air pollution. © Copyright 1999 The Washington Post Company From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 5 19:42:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA15400 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02663; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:28:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA02491 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:27:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.144] (pm3shep3-163-144.intrepid.net [209.190.163.144]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA20199; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:31:19 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:22:02 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: OFF: AD HOC CENSORSHIP re: Food History Documentary Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 543 Thought folks might find this interesting...........................Marla >Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 13:43:04 -0900 (PDT) >From: warren belasco >Subject: Food History Documentary >Sender: owner-dsfs@lists.umbc.edu >X-Sender: belasco@umbc2.umbc.edu >To: dsfs@lists.umbc.edu >Reply-to: dsfs@lists.umbc.edu > > > >Hollywood actor/activist Alec Baldwin needs our help. In the April >5 issue of The Nation (devoted to politics in Hollywood), Baldwin >is asked whether ongoing corporate takeovers and mergers make it >harder to make politically controversial films. His answer (p.20): > > > >You see the consequences of the vertical integration of the >entertainment companies. I have been going to every major >outlet--the Discovery Channel, A&E, the History Channel, every PBS >outlet in the major markets, NET, KCET, KQED in San Francisco, >WGBH in Boston--looking for financing to help me produce a >documentary titled "The History of Food," about the political and >economic determinants of what we eat in this country. And every >single person I talk to who has an IQ over 100 is overwhelmingly >intrigued by the idea of this show. But all these outlets, they're >like, "Oh, God! We can't do that, because of that Oprah Winfrey >beef lawsuit!" I mean, this is what I'm getting from The History >Channel. They just say, "We'll call you." And I never hear from them. > >***** > >Any suggestions for Mr. Baldwin? I'm sure you can write him c/o of >The Nation (letters@TheNation.com). Please cc this list, too. > >Warren > > > ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** Marla Rhodes Northeast Food System Partnership Information and Outreach Coordinator 617-627-5481 mrhodes1@emerald.tufts.edu Interested in sharing ideas and information about community food security and sustainable food systems in the Northeast? Sign up to the email group nefood-l. Send the message SUBSCRIBE NEFOOD-L YOUR NAME to the following address: listproc@listproc.tufts.edu Leave the subject line blank. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 5 19:42:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA15405 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02723; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:29:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA02525 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:28:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.144] (pm3shep3-163-144.intrepid.net [209.190.163.144]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA20231 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:31:26 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:25:35 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: De Groene Weg of Holland Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 544 Hi, First of all, happy easter to all of you. My name is Jon de Ruijter, I'm a representative of De Groene Weg. De Groene Weg is a dutch organisation of biologic butschershops in Holland. Since 20 years we are specialized in production of biologic meat products. We have 22 shops and we deliver aproximately 500 health food stores and supermakets in Holland, Belgium and Germany. Tow years ago I was an apprentice on the Temple-Wilton community farm for 6 months. I also attended the weekend in Kimberton about apprenticeships (sounding the call) We are growing fast the last three years and we expand our activities more and more all over Europe. We deliver meat factories in Danmark, Italy, England and France. For Europe, we are the most professional organisation for, (exclusively) biologic meat. Right now I'm traslating our control rules in English. I would like to ask you if you could send me a copy from the quality rules for the USA. I'm sure that there are a lot of similarities in the US rules and those fron Europe. We're also interested in the developments on biodynamics in America. Is it possible that we can get a link on your homepage to ours? I think we can share a lot of information and experience that we have with others who work with biologic meat. Our internet address is: www.degroeneweg.nl My personal addres is: Jon de Ruijter Pr. Julianalaan 2b 3062 DH Rotterdam The Netherlands Tel: 011-31-10-2427717 I hope to receive the information soon, so we can increase our turnover in Europe more. If you have any question please reply to me!! Kind regards, Jon de Ruijter From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 6 03:52:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA26090 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 03:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA19942; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 03:39:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA19875 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 03:39:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bio (kmidc67-92.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.92]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA14719 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:42:22 +1000 Message-ID: <007301be8000$e28561a0$4a431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: "BDNow list" Subject: Fw: Off : GMO ORGANIC CONTAMINATION Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:51:55 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 545 Dont know if you got this news in USA, but I thought it was important. Cheryl Kemp. -----Original Message----- From: Organic Federation of Australia Inc To: ofa@netspace.net.au Date: Tuesday, 6 April 1999 12:25 pm Subject: GMO ORGANIC CONTAMINATION >Dear All, > >Email received by Dick Copeman. > >Gmo's are an obvious threat to the rapidly expanding organic industry both >here and overseas. > >Regards, > >Scott Kinnear > >************************* > > >Copyright 1999 Madison Newspapers, Inc. Wisconsin State Journal > >March 24, 1999, Wednesday, ALL EDITIONS > >Wind-Blown Genes Cut Into Organic Profits > >Rick Barrett Agribusiness reporter > >Bad news could be blowing in the wind for organic farmers and food >companies if their crops are contaminated from the airborne pollen of >genetically altered crops. In one case, a Hudson food company recently lost >$ 170,000 in sales after its organic corn chips tested positive for >genetically engineered corn. The company, Prima Terra, had shipped 80,000 >bags of chips to Holland -- only to have them fail a random "gene scan" by >government inspectors. Under European regulations, the chips could not be >sold as organic even though only one bag in the shipment might have been >contaminated. Prima Terra destroyed all of the chips rather than ship them >back to the United States. > >After the incident last December, Prima Terra didn't ship any chips for two >months until it was certain it had found the source of the contamination, >said company president Charles Walker. The source was pollen from >genetically engineered corn that blew into an organic farmer's corn field >in Texas. The corn had a patented gene inserted into it that made it >artificially resistant to bugs -- something not allowed in organic farming. >It might have come from a neighboring field or it might have come from >miles away, as corn pollen travels in the wind. ''But either way it was a >nightmare for us,'' Walker said, adding that it cut deep into company corn >chip profits for an entire year. > >------------------ > >Dick Copeman >Consumer Food Network >223 Logan Road, Buranda QLD 4102 >Australia >Ph (+61) 07 3217 3187 >Fx (+61) 07 3217 3028 > >Scott Kinnear > >Chairperson >Organic Federation of Australia >C/- 452 Lygon St >East Brunswick >Victoria 3057 >Australia > >Ph 61 3 9386 6600 >Fax 61 3 9384 1322 > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 6 10:26:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02064 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:26:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14332; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:12:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wolfenet.com (ratty.wolfe.net [204.157.98.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13911 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:10:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wolfenet.com (sea-pm3-2-p124.wolfenet.com [206.159.28.124]) by wolfenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA20582 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 07:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <370A1655.1A7EA73B@wolfenet.com> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 07:12:38 -0700 From: Martin Nyberg Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Good bye for now, (Going to War) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 546 Hello Folks Big change in my life requires that I secede my BD research to my partner, Jasper Koster-Nyberg, who will be taking primary responsibilities for managing our farm this spring and summer. She is a certified Environmental Horticulturist and is capable of offering much good contribution to the BDnow list. Even so, she will likely just lurk for a while! Y2K is getting TOP PRIORITY in the world's governments and mega-corporations who are truly on a "war-footing" to combat this problem. They are spending literally billions and perhaps trillions of $ or yen, or marks, or whatever. The majority of the small business community (that includes farms), approximately 23,000,000 companies in the US alone, have not even started to consider this problem and they are the backbone of our economy and community. I am taking a full-time position as a director of Internet marketing for an international firm here in Seattle. They have made me an offer I cannot refuse and in the spirit of preparing both my family and the community for the coming Y2K challenge, I will be heading up the marketing of the companies software product, called "Trimaran 2000" to the small business community. This is the best Y2K project management in-a-box product of its kind that I have found. For the sake of our prosperity in the 21st Century, please do your best to make sure you, your neighbors, business partners, and customers, are ready for Y2K. To learn more about Trimaran 2000 and the Y2K small business challenge, go to: http://www.systemicsolutions.com. Trimaran 2000 is the only "product" ever endorsed by the globally renowned Y2K proponent Mr. Peter de Jager. http://www.year2000.com. I will miss you all and hope to see you at a NW Biodynamic Conference in Seattle in winter '99/'2000~!! Martin Nyberg GreenMan Farm CSA Vashon, WA. USA (206)567-4548 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 6 11:42:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04831 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:42:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25771; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:30:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25632 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:29:45 -0400 (EDT) From: HILAWRIGHT@aol.com Received: from HILAWRIGHT@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.4) id hRDPa27103 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:29:07 EDT Subject: bad news for French cheese lovers To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_c6d96ec1.243b8243_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows 95 sub 176 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 547 --part1_c6d96ec1.243b8243_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thought you may be interested in this from the UK Guardian Hilary Wright ------------------------ French cheesed off with EU ruling =20 Jon Henley in Paris on the directive causing a stink =20 Monday April 5, 1999 The Guardian =20 The first to fall foul of the new regulations was a particularly smelly =E9poisses from Burgundy. Then came a rich and runny maroilles from Aisne, and a notably creamy saint-f=E9licien from the Is=E8re region. Finally, thi= s weekend, it was a crusty camembert from Calvados country. =20 Since the beginning of the year, when the French government belatedly implemented a 1992 European Union directive on unpasteurised dairy produce, four of the country's finest cheeses have been forcibly removed from sale - to the mounting fury of a dairy industry that once boasted nearly as many types of cheese as there are days in the year. =20 'Don't get me wrong, we're all for safety, but the only word for this is psychosis,' said Luc Morlon of the firm Lactelis, whose Lepetit camembert was the latest cheese to be recalled, amid massive publicity, after checks at a shop revealed minute traces of listeria. 'The Lepetit brand has existed for 130 years without a single problem,' Mr Morlon said. 'Now, in a matter of days, the relationship the consumer has built up with this product has been absolutely shattered. Sales have collapsed. Yet... a small trace of listeria does not necessarily entail a risk to the consumer.' =20 In adopting the EU directive, which allows no evidence of listeria in any random 25-gram sample, the French government has caved in to the American and northern European obsession with hygiene, the industry argues. It is promoting the insipid taste of pasteurised, over-processed dairy foods rather than the unique flavours of French cheese. =20 According to government statistics, the French eat 80 per cent of all the unpasteurised cheese produced in Europe. Sales of some strong brands, such as crottin de Chavignol and camembert, have risen by as much as 105 per cent in the last decade. But a well-publicised product recall can have a devastating impact. The French dairy retailers' association says sales of saint-felicien fell 70 per cent in the past month. =20 'The publicity given to these cases has been out of all proportion,' Mr Morlon said. 'On the television news they've come between the war in Kosovo and the fire in the Mont Blanc tunnel. You can imagine the effect on the consumer.' =20 In fact France's traditional cheeses have never been healthier, says Jean-Francois Renard, managing director of the brie makers Renard et Gillard. 'Each year we plough 2 per cent of our turnover into hygiene controls.' =20 'We've spent =A35 million on training... As a result of our own analyses we destroy the 2-3 per cent of our produce that doesn't come up to scratch. And over the last 10 years, illnesses due to listeria in France have more than halved.' =20 =A9 Copyright Guardian Media Group plc. 1999 =20 =20 --part1_c6d96ec1.243b8243_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (rly-zd01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.225]) by air-zd03.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Tue, 06 Apr 1999 03:21:10 -0500Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id DAA08622; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 03:21:02 -0400 (EDT)Received: from which.net ([194.168.101.84]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA2786; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 08:21:42 +0100Message-ID: <3709B365.AE9E0ED6@which.net>Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 08:10:29 +0100From: John Whiting Reply-To: John Whiting Organization: Diatribal PressX-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)MIME-Version: 1.0To: Guild of Food Writers List Subject: L'Epoisses est mort Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------54D67B98109DCCD5F307F49D" Reply-To: To: undisclosed-recipients:; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -------------------- When even the French cave in to this madness, it begins to look as if we’re fighting a losing battle. Have I eaten my last époisses? My three excursions through France this year will be long and lingering. . . John ###################################################################### French cheesed off with EU ruling Jon Henley in Paris on the directive causing a stink Monday April 5, 1999 The Guardian The first to fall foul of the new regulations was a particularly smelly époisses from Burgundy. Then came a rich and runny maroilles from Aisne, and a notably creamy saint-félicien from the Isère region. Finally, this weekend, it was a crusty camembert from Calvados country. Since the beginning of the year, when the French government belatedly implemented a 1992 European Union directive on unpasteurised dairy produce, four of the country's finest cheeses have been forcibly removed from sale - to the mounting fury of a dairy industry that once boasted nearly as many types of cheese as there are days in the year. 'Don't get me wrong, we're all for safety, but the only word for this is psychosis,' said Luc Morlon of the firm Lactelis, whose Lepetit camembert was the latest cheese to be recalled, amid massive publicity, after checks at a shop revealed minute traces of listeria. 'The Lepetit brand has existed for 130 years without a single problem,' Mr Morlon said. 'Now, in a matter of days, the relationship the consumer has built up with this product has been absolutely shattered. Sales have collapsed. Yet... a small trace of listeria does not necessarily entail a risk to the consumer.' In adopting the EU directive, which allows no evidence of listeria in any random 25-gram sample, the French government has caved in to the American and northern European obsession with hygiene, the industry argues. It is promoting the insipid taste of pasteurised, over-processed dairy foods rather than the unique flavours of French cheese. According to government statistics, the French eat 80 per cent of all the unpasteurised cheese produced in Europe. Sales of some strong brands, such as crottin de Chavignol and camembert, have risen by as much as 105 per cent in the last decade. But a well-publicised product recall can have a devastating impact. The French dairy retailers' association says sales of saint-felicien fell 70 per cent in the past month. 'The publicity given to these cases has been out of all proportion,' Mr Morlon said. 'On the television news they've come between the war in Kosovo and the fire in the Mont Blanc tunnel. You can imagine the effect on the consumer.' In fact France's traditional cheeses have never been healthier, says Jean-Francois Renard, managing director of the brie makers Renard et Gillard. 'Each year we plough 2 per cent of our turnover into hygiene controls.' 'We've spent £5 million on training... As a result of our own analyses we destroy the 2-3 per cent of our produce that doesn't come up to scratch. And over the last 10 years, illnesses due to listeria in France have more than halved.' © Copyright Guardian Media Group plc. 1999 --part1_c6d96ec1.243b8243_boundary-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 6 14:15:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA08554 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23824; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:03:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23061 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:58:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00AE50F2@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:02:21 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 6 Apr 99 14:02:16 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 6 Apr 99 14:01:59 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:01:53 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: (Fwd) Pesticides in Rain!! Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1DC3DEC3C2F@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 548 The following was posted to the organic gardening list serve. Anyone know any more? Anita ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU Someone posted this to my mailing list and it is scary!! ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Swiss Study Says It's Raining Pesticides Excerpts: Rain is not what it used to be. A new study reveals that much of the precipitation in Europe contains such high levels of dissolved pesticides that it would be illegal to supply it as drinking water. Studies in Switzerland have found that rain is laced with toxic levels of atrazine, alachlor and other commonly used crop sprays. The chemicals appear to have evaporated from fields and become part of the clouds. In the latest study, the highest concentrations of pesticides turned up in the first rain after a long dry spell, particularly when local fields had recently been sprayed. Until now, scientists had assumed that the pesticides only infiltrated groundwater directly from fields. To read the rest of the article, go to: http://yourhealthdaily.com/ ------- End of forwarded message ------- Cyndi _______________________________________________________________________________ Oakland, California Zone 9 USDA; Zone 16 Sunset Western Garden Guide Chemically sensitive/disabled - Organic Gardening only by choice and neccessity _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com http://www.consultclarity.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 6 17:39:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14007 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:39:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA29739; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA29499 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-142.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-142.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.142]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA97700 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:26:36 GMT Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:26:36 GMT Message-Id: <199904062126.VAA97700@out1.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: Good bye for now, (Going to War) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 549 Hi Martin, Good luck with the y2k. I just finished programming a y2k project. I'll have a look at the site. Lynton At 07:12 AM 4/6/99 -0700, you wrote: >Hello Folks > >Big change in my life requires that I secede my BD research to my >partner, >Jasper Koster-Nyberg, who will be taking primary responsibilities for >managing >our farm this spring and summer. She is a certified Environmental >Horticulturist and is capable of offering much good contribution to the >BDnow >list. Even so, she will likely just lurk for a while! >Y2K is getting TOP PRIORITY in the world's governments and >mega-corporations >who are truly on a "war-footing" to combat this problem. They are >spending >literally billions and perhaps trillions of $ or yen, or marks, or >whatever. >The majority of the small business community (that includes farms), >approximately 23,000,000 companies in the US alone, have not even >started to >consider this problem and they are the backbone of our economy and >community. >I am taking a full-time position as a director of Internet marketing for >an >international firm here in Seattle. They have made me an offer I cannot > >refuse and in the spirit of preparing both my family and the community >for the >coming Y2K challenge, I will be heading up the marketing of the >companies >software product, called "Trimaran 2000" to the small business >community. >This is the best Y2K project management in-a-box product of its kind >that I >have found. > >For the sake of our prosperity in the 21st Century, please do your best >to >make sure you, your neighbors, business partners, and customers, are >ready >for Y2K. > >To learn more about Trimaran 2000 and the Y2K small business challenge, >go to: >http://www.systemicsolutions.com. Trimaran 2000 is the only >"product" ever endorsed by the globally renowned Y2K proponent Mr. Peter >de >Jager. http://www.year2000.com. > >I will miss you all and hope to see you at a NW Biodynamic Conference in > >Seattle in winter '99/'2000~!! > >Martin Nyberg >GreenMan Farm CSA >Vashon, WA. USA >(206)567-4548 > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 6 18:14:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA14661 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:14:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05256; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:02:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.frontiercoop.com (mail.frontiercoop.com [208.130.190.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04968 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:59:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erica.renaud.frontiercoop.com (ERICA.RENAUD [172.16.10.152]) by mail.frontiercoop.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-37991U200L2S100) with SMTP id AAA2461 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:01:47 -0500 Date: 06 Apr 99 17:02:28 -0500 From: Erica Renaud To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" X-Mailer: QuickMail Pro 1.5.3b3 (Windows32) X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Message-ID: <19990406220147437.AAA2461@erica.renaud.frontiercoop.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id RAA04974 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 550 unsubscribe From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 7 02:26:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA21455 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:26:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA28870; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:29:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wolfenet.com (ratty.wolfe.net [204.157.98.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA28809 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wolfenet.com (sea-pm3-6-p179.wolfenet.com [206.159.21.179]) by wolfenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03580 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <370AED84.A3505C2@wolfenet.com> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 22:30:48 -0700 From: Martin Nyberg Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Good bye for now, (Going to War) References: <199904062126.VAA97700@out1.ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 551 Thanks so much Lynton. IF you have any comments please email me directly at greenman@wolfenet.com. What kind of project was this you finished? Congratuations. It is rare that these projects even get started, let alone finished! Martin Nyberg Lynton Blair wrote: > Hi Martin, > > Good luck with the y2k. I just finished programming a y2k project. I'll > have a look at the site. > > Lynton > > At 07:12 AM 4/6/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Hello Folks > > > >Big change in my life requires that I secede my BD research to my > >partner, > >Jasper Koster-Nyberg, who will be taking primary responsibilities for > >managing > >our farm this spring and summer. She is a certified Environmental > >Horticulturist and is capable of offering much good contribution to the > >BDnow > >list. Even so, she will likely just lurk for a while! > >Y2K is getting TOP PRIORITY in the world's governments and > >mega-corporations > >who are truly on a "war-footing" to combat this problem. They are > >spending > >literally billions and perhaps trillions of $ or yen, or marks, or > >whatever. > >The majority of the small business community (that includes farms), > >approximately 23,000,000 companies in the US alone, have not even > >started to > >consider this problem and they are the backbone of our economy and > >community. > >I am taking a full-time position as a director of Internet marketing for > >an > >international firm here in Seattle. They have made me an offer I cannot > > > >refuse and in the spirit of preparing both my family and the community > >for the > >coming Y2K challenge, I will be heading up the marketing of the > >companies > >software product, called "Trimaran 2000" to the small business > >community. > >This is the best Y2K project management in-a-box product of its kind > >that I > >have found. > > > >For the sake of our prosperity in the 21st Century, please do your best > >to > >make sure you, your neighbors, business partners, and customers, are > >ready > >for Y2K. > > > >To learn more about Trimaran 2000 and the Y2K small business challenge, > >go to: > >http://www.systemicsolutions.com. Trimaran 2000 is the only > >"product" ever endorsed by the globally renowned Y2K proponent Mr. Peter > >de > >Jager. http://www.year2000.com. > > > >I will miss you all and hope to see you at a NW Biodynamic Conference in > > > >Seattle in winter '99/'2000~!! > > > >Martin Nyberg > >GreenMan Farm CSA > >Vashon, WA. USA > >(206)567-4548 > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 7 04:12:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA22370 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 04:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA07741; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 04:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA07665 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 03:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from barrylia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D7LAPD4W; Wed, 07 Apr 1999 04:01:42 EDT To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:00:38 -0700 Subject: Re: rather appropriate (animal topic) Message-ID: <19990407.010039.-3978431.9.barrylia@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,8,10-13,15-32,34,36-37,39,41-44,46,48-49,51,53,55,57-60,62,64,66,68,70-71,73,75,77,79,81,83,85-87,89,91,93-104 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Barry D Lia Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 552 Anita, Sounds like you're referring to "The Man Who LISTENS to Horses", by Monty Roberts (ISBN 0-679-45658-9). I first heard about him on NPR too. Happened to get to SEE him do his "join-up" the other day on the Animal Planet Channel. Very impressive. Though it looks simple in principle, it was quite a story of discovery, since his father raised him to "break" horses. He got his ideas observing Mustangs in the wild. Amazing fellow. At the end of the show, they show him laying out on the lawn with a local buck deer he's befriended nuzzling his arms and face like a puppy! _________________________________________________________________________ _____ Barry Lia, Seattle On Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:17:38 EST5EDT "Anita Graf (Staff)" writes: >Martha, thanks for the stories. Very nice. And congratulations on >your new kids. > >I just wanted to verify about the book. The one I'm talking about is > >a real life story. The best that I can figure is there are two >similar books, one fiction (from which the movie follows) and the >other one which maybe titled more like, "The Man Who Talks To >Horses," or some such thing. I just can't remember exactly. Anyway, >the only reason I found out about this book in the first place is >that I heard the guy interviewed on NPR. He's the guy who helped >train Queen Elizebeth's horses. The book is a sort of autobiography >-- even has picures. It's the *real life* aspect that I really like. >Anita > >Martha wrote: > >There are a couple of 'gentling' training groups. The Mallon Method is one, >who also 'whispers' to communicate with horses and llamas and other stock >they're trying to teach. Also, someone called Pony Boy has written two >training books, one geared for teenagers mostly, and he uses quietude and >horse 'sense' to train both horse and rider. He's been interviewed on Talk >Spot and comes across as very sensible. >When asked if he'd seen/ read Horse Whisperer, he replied it would be >judgmental for him to do so. I read HW awhile back also the next one by >same author called The Loop. (About trapping wolves.) If HW movie differs >wildly from the book, imagine how much the book (fiction after all) must >differ from the person they're trying to portray. >A long time ago, I was with my Dad (I was pretty little) and an old cowboy >showed us a trick he used to judge which horse he wants to start training. >Now this man was a holdover from the Goodnight Trail days, and I loved to >listen to his stories. We all went into the corral with some yearling colts >and squatted down and just talked like they weren't there. This guy had >picked up some pebbles and was casually tossing them from hand to hand >while we all 'hunkered down'. As soon as the horses settled down and >stopped showing us their haunches, he watched which ones were turned toward >us, ears pricked and which were looking for a way out. He'd take a stone >and just flip it off to the side, or in the middle of the ring. Two horses >out of the 10 or so were curious enough and fearless of us enough to walk >over to see what he was doing. he stood up, still tossing the stones, and >they didn't booger at all. >We all walked out and he said those were the two he'd start with, they let >their intelligence overrule their first fear and that was the first break he looked for. >he had a cute story that took me years to figure out. When asked how he got >his horses SO BIG, (Quarter horses that are draft sized), he said he has a >secret way of going out to the feed trough and picking up some of the feed >and rubbing it between their eyes. Well, everyone thought it was something >in the rubbing. Years later it dawned on me, he said PICK FEED UP OUT OF >THE TROUGH, so it meant that he merely kept feed out free choice. >Speaking of animals,, Annie just kidded with twin bucks. I had doelings >sold of course, but she's proud as punch over them anyhow. So am I, even if >it is an April Fool joke on me. (She kidded but I'm the one covered with >amniotic fluid. Why is this stuff so astringent?) Happily going in to shower, >martha > > >Anita Graf >313-F Conner Hall >Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics >University of Georgia >Athens, GA 30602-7509 >(706) 542-1915 phone >(706) 542-0739 fax >agraf@agecon.uga.edu > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 7 05:27:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA22940 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 05:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA11355; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 05:13:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA11238 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 05:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (whan-032.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.132]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA31937 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 21:11:58 +1200 Message-ID: <005901be80d5$8ed27860$7ff631ca@oemcomputer> From: "g&y bodle" To: "BD List" Subject: GE Salmon in NZ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 21:00:21 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE8139.A64F81E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 553 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE8139.A64F81E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ge Salmon have been discovered in a NZ fish farm with deformaties. They = are the results of experiments underway before there were any = regulations about GE trials in this country. I have the article from the NZ Herald on disc if anyone would like me to = send it to them- but it is a bit long to clog up the list downloads. Just email me and I can send it to you. Gareth Bodle Whangarei NZ glend@igrin.co.nz =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE8139.A64F81E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ge Salmon have been discovered in a = NZ fish farm=20 with deformaties. They are the results of experiments underway before = there were=20 any regulations about GE trials in this country.
 
I have the article from the NZ = Herald on disc if=20 anyone would like me to send it to them- but it is a bit long to clog up = the=20 list downloads.
Just email me and I can send it to=20 you.
 
Gareth Bodle
Whangarei NZ
glend@igrin.co.nz =20
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE8139.A64F81E0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 7 11:43:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29256 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:43:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11421; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11214 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00AF2A62@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:33:35 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 7 Apr 99 11:33:31 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 7 Apr 99 11:33:13 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:33:13 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: rather appropriate (animal topic) Priority: normal In-reply-to: <19990407.010039.-3978431.9.barrylia@juno.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1F1C4056889@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 554 YES!!! That's the title and the guy!! (I knew the title was different from the movie, but I have a recalcitrant memory to contend with -- seems to have a mind of its own!) Thanks so much for clearing this up for everybody, including me. I really encourage everyone to check it out -- at least take a trip to the bookstore and read a few pages. I'm sure you'll be impressed. I was. > Anita, > Sounds like you're referring to "The Man Who LISTENS to Horses", by > Monty Roberts (ISBN 0-679-45658-9). I first heard about him on NPR too. > Happened to get to SEE him do his "join-up" the other day on the Animal > Planet Channel. Very impressive. Though it looks simple in principle, it > was quite a story of discovery, since his father raised him to "break" > horses. He got his ideas observing Mustangs in the wild. Amazing fellow. > At the end of the show, they show him laying out on the lawn with a local > buck deer he's befriended nuzzling his arms and face like a puppy! > _________________________________________________________________________ > _____ > Barry Lia, Seattle > > > On Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:17:38 EST5EDT "Anita Graf (Staff)" > writes: > >Martha, thanks for the stories. Very nice. And congratulations on > >your new kids. > > > >I just wanted to verify about the book. The one I'm talking about is > > > >a real life story. The best that I can figure is there are two > >similar books, one fiction (from which the movie follows) and the > >other one which maybe titled more like, "The Man Who Talks To > >Horses," or some such thing. I just can't remember exactly. Anyway, > >the only reason I found out about this book in the first place is > >that I heard the guy interviewed on NPR. He's the guy who helped > >train Queen Elizebeth's horses. The book is a sort of autobiography > >-- even has picures. It's the *real life* aspect that I really like. > >Anita > > > >Martha wrote: > > > >There are a couple of 'gentling' training groups. The Mallon Method is > one, > >who also 'whispers' to communicate with horses and llamas and other > stock > >they're trying to teach. Also, someone called Pony Boy has written two > >training books, one geared for teenagers mostly, and he uses quietude > and > >horse 'sense' to train both horse and rider. He's been interviewed on > Talk > >Spot and comes across as very sensible. > >When asked if he'd seen/ read Horse Whisperer, he replied it would be > >judgmental for him to do so. I read HW awhile back also the next one by > >same author called The Loop. (About trapping wolves.) If HW movie > differs > >wildly from the book, imagine how much the book (fiction after all) must > > >differ from the person they're trying to portray. > >A long time ago, I was with my Dad (I was pretty little) and an old > cowboy > >showed us a trick he used to judge which horse he wants to start > training. > >Now this man was a holdover from the Goodnight Trail days, and I loved > to > >listen to his stories. We all went into the corral with some yearling > colts > >and squatted down and just talked like they weren't there. This guy had > >picked up some pebbles and was casually tossing them from hand to hand > >while we all 'hunkered down'. As soon as the horses settled down and > >stopped showing us their haunches, he watched which ones were turned > toward > >us, ears pricked and which were looking for a way out. He'd take a stone > > >and just flip it off to the side, or in the middle of the ring. Two > horses > >out of the 10 or so were curious enough and fearless of us enough to > walk > >over to see what he was doing. he stood up, still tossing the stones, > and > >they didn't booger at all. > >We all walked out and he said those were the two he'd start with, they > let > >their intelligence overrule their first fear and that was the first > break he looked for. > >he had a cute story that took me years to figure out. When asked how he > got > >his horses SO BIG, (Quarter horses that are draft sized), he said he has > a > >secret way of going out to the feed trough and picking up some of the > feed > >and rubbing it between their eyes. Well, everyone thought it was > something > >in the rubbing. Years later it dawned on me, he said PICK FEED UP OUT OF > > >THE TROUGH, so it meant that he merely kept feed out free choice. > >Speaking of animals,, Annie just kidded with twin bucks. I had doelings > >sold of course, but she's proud as punch over them anyhow. So am I, even > if > >it is an April Fool joke on me. (She kidded but I'm the one covered with > > >amniotic fluid. Why is this stuff so astringent?) Happily going in to > shower, > >martha > > > > > >Anita Graf > >313-F Conner Hall > >Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics > >University of Georgia > >Athens, GA 30602-7509 > >(706) 542-1915 phone > >(706) 542-0739 fax > >agraf@agecon.uga.edu > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 7 11:49:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29416 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:49:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12505; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:37:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12313 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00AF2CBC@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:40:02 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 7 Apr 99 11:39:58 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 7 Apr 99 11:39:41 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:39:40 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GE Salmon in NZ Priority: normal In-reply-to: <005901be80d5$8ed27860$7ff631ca@oemcomputer> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1F1DF9D3C55@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 555 I didn't realize that salmon could be raised on a fish farm. But I suppose that given the way fish hatcheries work, there could be GE salmon out there in the oceans and rivers too. Ugh. What does this leave the seafood lover with? What is there that isn't contaminated with GE and is relatively uncontaminated by all the other pollutants in the world's waters? Is there any seafood that is politically, environmentally, and health safety correct to eat? If you have any suggestions, please speak, this is not a rhetorical question. Anita > Ge Salmon have been discovered in a NZ fish farm with deformaties. They are the results of experiments underway before there were any regulations about GE trials in this country. > > I have the article from the NZ Herald on disc if anyone would like me to send it to them- but it is a bit long to clog up the list downloads. > Just email me and I can send it to you. > > Gareth Bodle > Whangarei NZ > glend@igrin.co.nz > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 7 12:02:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29648 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:02:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14222; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:50:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14017 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.15.155]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:53:09 +0100 Message-ID: <370B7F27.2BC0@cwcom.net> Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 16:52:07 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Bad news for French cheeses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 556 According to BBC radio news, at least one of the withdrawn cheeses had been made, in fact, from pasteurised milk; the item pointed out, in defence of raw milk, that 'good' bacteria generally overcome pathogens, whereas once pasteurised, any contamination has its own way. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 7 12:18:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00004 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16410; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:06:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16072 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts2-9.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.199.41]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with SMTP id JAA10810 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:07:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <009301be810f$ea7e7080$21c76cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: Subject: Coffee Seed? Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:00:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0080_01BE80D5.1322F500" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 557 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0080_01BE80D5.1322F500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can anyone help these folks? Guillermo? PatandLiz? Woody ----- Original Message -----=20 From: jr. and mary=20 To: aurora@kootenay.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 3:04 PM Do you have any idea where I might look for coffee seeds to grow coffee = plants? Thank you for your time Leo. ------=_NextPart_000_0080_01BE80D5.1322F500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can anyone help these folks?  Guillermo? =20 PatandLiz?
 
Woody
----- Original Message -----=20
From: jr. and mary =
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 3:04 PM

Do you have any idea where I might look for coffee = seeds to=20 grow coffee plants? Thank you for your time
Leo.
------=_NextPart_000_0080_01BE80D5.1322F500-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 7 13:38:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01778 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:38:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28535; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:26:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA28131 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:24:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00AF4CCC@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:27:40 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 7 Apr 99 13:27:36 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 7 Apr 99 13:27:24 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:27:19 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: composting, mulching vs "cleanliness" Priority: normal References: <163A82C0F59@agecon.uga.edu> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1F3AB3A24E8@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 558 Getting back to this topic.. For anyone interested in "development" work, I would suggest that the only way to get mulching and other sustainable and organic methods to be practiced is to develop markets for the resulting ag products. When you can go to people and say, "we have a way for you to sell your products better, but it requires you to follow A,B, & C requisites," I doubt anyone will bat an eye. They'd probably stand on their heads if it were required to participate in a more lucrative market. Then, once new methods are installed, habits formed, and alliances made, you can start talking about such esoteric concepts as soil fertility, soil conservation, and ecological integrity. (You might have to wait a few incarnations to get around to RS ag lectures...) I wish somebody would have informed me of this before I went out and wasted a lot of time trying to convert hearts and minds before trying to convert immediate economic realities. Anita > >Dear Guillermo, > >Since you seem to do outreach work and you're in Mexico, I'm > >wondering how this idea of covered earth is received by others > >there. When I worked in sustainable ag in Dominican Republic, I > >preached the gospel of covered earth, but was pretty much ignored. > >The habit of seeing anything other than bare dirt (usually soil had > >already been swept away) as "dirty" (sucio) prevailed. It was even > >taken to ridiculous extremes. I remember one family in particular > >that did its best to have the "best looking" yard around, and what > >that ended up meaning was the foundation of their house and the > >nearby trees rising up from the ground (you know, visa versa, the > >earth was dimishing below them). It is amazing what an army of > >brooms can do. But they took the extra step of spraying herbicide on > >the few tufts of grass that dared to show themselves. This was the > >community model for ag fields as well. But how different is that > >from this country where everyone has Scott's Turf Builder-ammended > >deserts in their front yards? How do we train people to see with > >different eyes? When will "clean and lovely" be recognized as > >"denuded and lifeless"? Oops, sorry for the rant. > >> > > > Yes Anita, it is the same story here. > > In a semiurban setting it is quite normal to see the bare ground around the house. Amidst a whole array of plants growing in containers and some times in the soil, but no ground cover. The areas of> In the well off urban areas, we have the plague of English grass that characterize the middle class of the world. It looks "better", but it takes a lot of tap water and effort to keep. > > In the rural setting, where I work, the modern campesinos like to see their land completely clean of ag debris after harvest and it is kept that way for a number of very dry and windy months. The o> So I guess the story of Dominican R., Africa, Mexico, etc. is pretty similar, is'nt ? > > Kind regards. > > Guillermo Romero I. > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 7 15:22:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05474 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15735; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f31.hotmail.com [209.185.131.94]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15113 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:05:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 47075 invoked by uid 0); 7 Apr 1999 19:08:04 -0000 Message-ID: <19990407190804.47074.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.230.25.45 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 07 Apr 1999 12:08:04 PDT X-Originating-IP: [205.230.25.45] From: "Connie Gilbert" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Coffee Seed? Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 14:08:04 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 559 I may be mistaken, but I think I have read you have to propigate coffee from cuttings. Each variety is slightly differnt, like oranges and peaches, they will not breed the same from the seed. I have seen coffee plants in garden catalogs. Next time I run across one, I will post it. Lynnaea >From: "Woody Wodraska" >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >To: >Subject: Coffee Seed? >Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:00:24 -0700 > >Can anyone help these folks? Guillermo? PatandLiz? > >Woody >----- Original Message ----- >From: jr. and mary >To: aurora@kootenay.com >Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 3:04 PM > > >Do you have any idea where I might look for coffee seeds to grow coffee plants? Thank you for your time >Leo. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 7 15:46:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05997 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:46:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18732; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:30:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18497 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:29:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00AF712A@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:32:47 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 7 Apr 99 15:32:43 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 7 Apr 99 15:32:14 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:32:05 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: OFF: price of a cow these days Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1F5BFF022A2@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 560 Here's a new take on getting the proper value-added on your next cow sale. The local car dealer, who was known to have taken advantage of several people in the community, informed a farmer that he was coming over to purchase a cow. The farmer priced the cow as follows: BASIC COW - $499.95 SHIPPING AND HANDLING, $35.75 Extra stomach 79.25 Two-tone exterior 142.10 Produce storage compartment 126.50 Heavy-duty straw chopper 189.60 Four-spigot/high-output drain system 149.20 Automatic flyswatter 88.50 Genuine cowhide upholstery 179.90 Deluxe dual horns 59.25 Automatic fertilizer attachment 339.40 4-by-4 traction drive assembly 884.16 Pre-delivery wash and comb 69.80 FARMER'S SUGGESTED LIST PRICE 2,843.36 Additional dealer adjustments 300.00 TOTAL LIST PRICE (including options) $3,143.36 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 7 17:03:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA07636 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00482; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:47:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from russian-caravan.cloud9.net (russian-caravan.cloud9.net [168.100.1.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00083 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cloud9.net (mtoro.dialup.cloud9.net [168.100.205.209]) by russian-caravan.cloud9.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6DB07633F for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <370BC32A.56696F1C@cloud9.net> Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 16:42:18 -0400 From: Mark Santoro X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Coffee Seed? References: <009301be810f$ea7e7080$21c76cce@netacc.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BA52A909D01A8402B1C57305" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 561 --------------BA52A909D01A8402B1C57305 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try either Cyberseeds or Banana tree. www.banana-tree.com www.cyberseeds.com Woody Wodraska wrote: > Can anyone help these folks? Guillermo? PatandLiz? Woody > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jr. and mary > To: aurora@kootenay.comSent: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 3:04 PM > Do you have any idea where I might look for coffee seeds to grow > coffee plants? Thank you for your timeLeo. --------------BA52A909D01A8402B1C57305 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try either Cyberseeds or Banana tree.  www.banana-tree.com
 www.cyberseeds.com
 
 

Woody Wodraska wrote:

Can anyone help these folks?  Guillermo?  PatandLiz? Woody
----- Original Message ----- To: aurora@kootenay.comSent: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 3:04 PM
 Do you have any idea where I might look for coffee seeds to grow coffee plants? Thank you for your timeLeo.
--------------BA52A909D01A8402B1C57305-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 7 21:25:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14462 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 21:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA02494; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 21:11:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02168 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 21:08:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from junkpile - 208.253.66.179 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 18:11:55 -0700 From: "Mary Manson" To: Subject: Re: GE Salmon in NZ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:22:17 -0700 Message-ID: <01be8166$a000b200$b342fdd0@junkpile> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0096_01BE812B.F3A1DA00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 562 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01BE812B.F3A1DA00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How about a class action suit by all the salmon-eaters against all the = GE/GM people ..... ?? -----Original Message----- From: g&y bodle To: BD List Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 2:17 AM Subject: GE Salmon in NZ =20 =20 Ge Salmon have been discovered in a NZ fish farm with deformaties. = They are the results of experiments underway before there were any = regulations about GE trials in this country. =20 I have the article from the NZ Herald on disc if anyone would like = me to send it to them- but it is a bit long to clog up the list = downloads. Just email me and I can send it to you. =20 Gareth Bodle Whangarei NZ glend@igrin.co.nz =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01BE812B.F3A1DA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
How about a = class action=20 suit by all the salmon-eaters against all the GE/GM people  .....=20 ??
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 g&y bodle <glend@igrin.co.nz>
To: = BD=20 List <bdnow@envirolink.org>
D= ate:=20 Wednesday, April 07, 1999 2:17 AM
Subject: GE Salmon = in=20 NZ

Ge Salmon have been discovered = in a NZ fish=20 farm with deformaties. They are the results of experiments underway = before=20 there were any regulations about GE trials in this = country.
 
I have the article from the NZ = Herald on=20 disc if anyone would like me to send it to them- but it is a bit = long to=20 clog up the list downloads.
Just email me and I can send it = to=20 you.
 
Gareth Bodle
Whangarei NZ
glend@igrin.co.nz =20
------=_NextPart_000_0096_01BE812B.F3A1DA00-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 7 21:46:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14711 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 21:46:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05256; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 21:33:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA04958 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 21:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([203.96.104.24]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990408013553.DBGS5596385.mta1-rme@default> for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:35:53 +1200 Message-ID: <370C085D.7D55@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 13:37:33 +1200 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: composting, mulching vs "cleanliness" References: <163A82C0F59@agecon.uga.edu> <1F3AB3A24E8@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 563 Anita Graf (Staff) wrote: > > Getting back to this topic.. > > For anyone interested in "development" work, I would suggest that the > only way to get mulching and other sustainable and organic methods to > be practiced is to develop markets for the resulting ag products. > When you can go to people and say, "we have a way for you to sell > your products better, but it requires you to follow A,B, & C > requisites," I doubt anyone will bat an eye. They'd probably stand > on their heads if it were required to participate in a more lucrative > market. Then, once new methods are installed, habits formed, and > alliances made, you can start talking about such esoteric concepts as > soil fertility, soil conservation, and ecological integrity. (You > might have to wait a few incarnations to get around to RS ag > lectures...) I wish somebody would have informed me of this before I > went out and wasted a lot of time trying to convert hearts and minds > before trying to convert immediate economic realities. > > Anita > > > >Dear Guillermo, > > >Since you seem to do outreach work and you're in Mexico, I'm > > >wondering how this idea of covered earth is received by others > > >there. When I worked in sustainable ag in Dominican Republic, I > > >preached the gospel of covered earth, but was pretty much ignored. > > >The habit of seeing anything other than bare dirt (usually soil had > > >already been swept away) as "dirty" (sucio) prevailed. It was even > > >taken to ridiculous extremes. I remember one family in particular > > >that did its best to have the "best looking" yard around, and what > > >that ended up meaning was the foundation of their house and the > > >nearby trees rising up from the ground (you know, visa versa, the > > >earth was dimishing below them). It is amazing what an army of > > >brooms can do. But they took the extra step of spraying herbicide on > > >the few tufts of grass that dared to show themselves. This was the > > >community model for ag fields as well. But how different is that > > >from this country where everyone has Scott's Turf Builder-ammended > > >deserts in their front yards? How do we train people to see with > > >different eyes? When will "clean and lovely" be recognized as > > >"denuded and lifeless"? Oops, sorry for the rant. > > >> > > > > > Yes Anita, it is the same story here. > > > > In a semiurban setting it is quite normal to see the bare ground around the house. Amidst a whole array of plants growing in containers and some times in the soil, but no ground cover. The areas of> In the well off urban areas, we have the plague of English grass that characterize the middle class of the world. It looks "better", but it takes a lot of tap water and effort to keep. > > > > In the rural setting, where I work, the modern campesinos like to see their land completely clean of ag debris after harvest and it is kept that way for a number of very dry and windy months. The o> So I guess the story of Dominican R., Africa, Mexico, etc. is pretty similar, is'nt ? > > > > Kind regards. > > > > Guillermo Romero I. > > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > > > > > > Anita Graf > 313-F Conner Hall > Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics > University of Georgia > Athens, GA 30602-7509 > (706) 542-1915 phone > (706) 542-0739 fax > agraf@agecon.uga.edu Hi Anita The same also applies when talking to people about going organic. When asked how is my organic growing working out my first reply is that my profit margin is getting better every year, that the whole process is becoming easier each year, than I casualy mention that I use Rudolf Steiners' philosophies of sustainable and profitable farming and explain how it has some wonderful tools that helps me overcome things like pest and diseases. Sometimes you hook them, sometimes you lose them. I have been using this approach for some time with a local flower growers group that I belong to. After the last meeting when it was explained that new laws on the use of chemicals was going to make life more difficult, about 4 or 5 growers approached me about organic growing subseqeint to that I have been asked to speak to this group about Organic flower growing over a 2 day period in mid May. My approach will be along the lines that organic flower growing is sustainable and profitable for small farmers which many of our members are. Later in the month I have been asked to speak to a of local garden club circle about the same topic. Interest in organics is increasing. Anita. Thanks for your thougths it is very refreshing to hear from someone else who also thinks along the same lines it is very encouraging when sometimes you think one is out in the wilderness in this world. Cheers tony Robinson Rambler FLowers New Zealand. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 7 22:43:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA15440 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:43:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12127; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:30:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA11720 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:27:43 -0400 (EDT) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA09335 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 21:30:41 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 21:30:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from frd-md2-15.ix.netcom.com(205.186.165.79) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma009308; Wed Apr 7 21:30:09 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <19994722321545705@ix.netcom.com> Subject: composting manure X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 564 A mirthful hello to y'all! I'm wondering how long animal manure needs to be composted to be assuredly free of pathogens and other health risks. Your replys can include techniques, BD or not (I'm not BD yet). At this point, I'm layering straw sheep bedding, cattle manure and 8 5-gallon buckets of veggie scraps per week. BTW, if you think 'sustainable ag" is good, those veggie scraps are the throw-aways of the local organic food co-op, stuff that went bad, or got replace by a new shipment. We as a nation are WAY OVER-PRODUCING FOOD, and an insane portion winds up as garbage. So, how sustainable is that? I've said before, sustainable ag trying to be finacially viable in our anti-nature economy is a losing game and we're fooling ourselves if we thing sust ag will save the world. The rise in sales of "organic" food that so many are drooling over is mostly highly processes, highly packaged foods making a mountain of waste and garbage. So, organic means diddly at that point. But the SALES are up so that must be good right? Well, soapbox away, please help me compost manure safely. Yummy vibarant energy to you and the soils you tend! Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to and from a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? Food is power... are you in control of yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 7 23:22:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA16112 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17748; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15283 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.186.171] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.171]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0F9U00KBGIQTVY@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 18:59:21 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 19:04:54 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Coffee Seed? In-reply-to: <009301be810f$ea7e7080$21c76cce@netacc.net> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id WAA15291 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 565 > Can anyone help these folks? Guillermo? PatandLiz? Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: jr. and mary To: aurora@kootenay.com Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 3:04 PM > Do you have any idea where I might look for coffee seeds to grow coffee plants? Thank you for your time Leo. Hi Leo, Woody: I can get you arabica coffee seed to you, but it is just the seed coffee growers here have being saving traditionaly. The professional growers now use typified 1 or 2 year old plants (I also can get those from a state facility for free). If you are interested and it is worthwhile to you going through the fitosanitary and custums red tape. Please let me know, and I will send you details on available varieties and it's characteristics. For one thing, it is coffee intended for growing areas above the 3000 ft (above mean sea level). In Martha's posting about coffee, she gave the address of a man from Illinois where she got her seed from: >I was given coffee bean for seeds from this gent: >Ron Werner, Ron's Rare Plants & Seeds >415 Chappel >Calumet City, Illinois 60409 Hope this helps Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 7 23:43:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA16472 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:43:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA20527; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:30:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20329 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:28:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.119] (pm3shep3-163-131.intrepid.net [209.190.163.131]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA06594 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:31:46 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:31:41 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Spring Care for Asparagus Beds Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 566 Hi! I'm taking over several large beds of asparagus. The spears themselves won't be up for several more weeks (I think!), but since these beds have been neglected for many years and are covered with burdock, dead nettle, and many other annual and perennial weeds and have not been fertilized in a dozen years, I'm wondering if anyone has any tips on how to weed the beds or to fertilize in the spring without causing a lot of problems. I won't consider any chemical solutions, but in the spirit of Pfeiffer, I'm willing to stray quite far from the BD norm to bring these beds back into bd treatment. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer. -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 8 00:25:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA17064 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 00:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA24424; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 00:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.cyberhighway.net (smtp1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.33]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA23673 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 00:05:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904080405.AAA23673@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 9088 invoked from network); 7 Apr 1999 22:09:19 -0600 Received: from ts2-26.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO ?209.161.18.177?) (209.161.18.177) by smtp1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 7 Apr 1999 22:09:19 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 22:09:15 -0600 Subject: Re: Spring Care for Asparagus Beds From: "Pam DeTray" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3006367755_477796_MIME_Part" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 567 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3006367755_477796_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Allan, if you're sure the spears aren't up yet, I would start by raking it out good. (Just how big are these beds?) Asparagus can take light cultivation, but you have to watch for the roots--they're very long, because the plant needs a lot of nutrients, and in my garden grow fairly near the surface. Then keep it watered (makes pulling weeds easier, which you might have to do with the perennials). If you have the people power, just keep after the weeds as they appear, but a light mulch should keep the annual weeds from coming up in large quantities. After a few years of working at them, weeds aren't such a problem. Also, I usually grow some tomatoes in with my asparagus, as it is supposed to repel asparagus beetles. Guess it works, I've never seen one, but don't know if they're a problem around here. With all the weeds in your beds, they may have wintered there. Once you clean out the weeds, you could let some chickens etc. have at the patch to get any beetles before the spears appear. If you have some composted manure, your asparagus bed would be a good place for some. If it's really been neglected get any compost on there, under the mulch. And remember, I'm writing from an arid, cold climate. I've never grown asparagus anywhere else. Pam DeTray psdetray@cyberhighway.net ---------- From: Intergalactic Garage To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Spring Care for Asparagus Beds Date: Wed, Apr 7, 1999, 10:31 PM Hi! I'm taking over several large beds of asparagus. The spears themselves won't be up for several more weeks (I think!), but since these beds have been neglected for many years and are covered with burdock, dead nettle, and many other annual and perennial weeds and have not been fertilized in a dozen years, I'm wondering if anyone has any tips on how to weed the beds or to fertilize in the spring without causing a lot of problems. I won't consider any chemical solutions, but in the spirit of Pfeiffer, I'm willing to stray quite far from the BD norm to bring these beds back into bd treatment. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer. -Allan igg@igg.com --MS_Mac_OE_3006367755_477796_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: Spring Care for Asparagus Beds Allan, if you're sure the spears aren't up yet, I would start by raking it = out good. (Just how big are these beds?) Asparagus can take light cultivatio= n, but you have to watch for the roots--they're very long, because the plant= needs a lot of nutrients, and in my garden grow fairly near the surface. Th= en keep it watered (makes pulling weeds easier, which you might have to do w= ith the perennials). If you have the people power, just keep after the weeds= as they appear, but a light mulch should keep the annual weeds from coming = up in large quantities. After a few years of working at them, weeds aren't s= uch a problem.
Also, I usually grow some tomatoes in with my asparagus, as it is supposed = to repel asparagus beetles. Guess it works, I've never seen one, but don't k= now if they're a problem around here. With all the weeds in your beds, they = may have wintered there. Once you clean out the weeds, you could let some ch= ickens etc. have at the patch to get any beetles before the spears appear. If you have some composted manure, your asparagus bed would be a good place= for some. If it's really been neglected get any compost on there, under the= mulch.

And remember, I'm writing from an arid, cold climate. I've never grown aspa= ragus anywhere else.

Pam DeTray
psdetray@cyberhighway.net

----------
From: Intergalactic Garage <igg@igg.com>
To: bdnow@envirolink.org
Subject: Spring Care for Asparagus Beds
Date: Wed, Apr 7, 1999, 10:31 PM


Hi!

I'm taking over several large beds of asparagus. The spears themselves
won't be up for several more weeks (I think!), but since these beds have been neglected for many years and are covered with burdock, dead nettle, and many other annual and perennial weeds and have not been fertilized in a=
dozen years, I'm wondering if anyone has any tips on how to weed the beds or to fertilize in the spring without causing a lot of problems.

I won't consider any chemical solutions, but in the spirit of Pfeiffer, I'm=
willing to stray quite far from the BD norm to bring these beds back into bd treatment.

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

-Allan
igg@igg.com



--MS_Mac_OE_3006367755_477796_MIME_Part-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 8 03:59:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA19928 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 03:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA08104; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 03:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA08020 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 03:44:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bio (kmidc67-81.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.81]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA23632 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:47:38 +1000 Message-ID: <007a01be8193$f61ca2c0$5b431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: composting, mulching vs "cleanliness" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:43:18 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 568 Dear Tony, Great to hear from you and to hear how well you are going. You are not alone out there, there are lots of us all plugging away at promoting the oh so obvious and simple message, that it all can be grown much better the BD way. It does get rather frustrating when you hit such scepticism and conservatism, though. I dont really agree though with your thought Anita, that by providing a market, the organic production will come through. At Heinz-Watties in Christchurch NZ, the company has a huge need for Organic frozen veges and they are trying to get more growers all the time, they offer full support, high premium price for product and are even doing a lot of research for organic problems, such as machines to do mechanical weeding in carrots etc. But do you think they can get enough growers- no way - too conservative there, can't have the next door farmer think you are different!! I find the farmer has to have a crisis of some kind, hip-pocket nerve or health to make him think and push him past the barriers of change. The other way is new farmers coming in, like city people buying land, who choose not to work with chemicals, and they search out better ways. They do not have the traditions of using chemicals and also they are already different in the community, so it doesnt matter. In a recent study done here it was found that the farmers who change because of perceived higher premiums are the least succesful, and the philosophical and health problems ones the most successful after a three year period. For when they hit a challenge it become too hard for the first lot. In Australia at present we are getting a bit worried about the build up of interest at present. Because sustaining these farmers over the first few years is a lot of work. We had one farmer ring last week who has 7000 acres, (wheat, sorghum and cattle) and his 2 neighbours 6000 acres and 9000 acres. They are all interested in converting, but when we worked out that they would require 245kg of 500 twice a year we nearly freaked, as we only have 200kg for all Australia at present. (that the Association provides, as we get all our farmers to start making their own as soon as possible) So we are madly collecting more horns to fill and maybe we shall have to start these guys off slowly, one area at a time, till we catch up. We also had a sugar mill wanting to get organic Certification and they want to convert all the farms around, as they are having huge environmental problems with acid-sulphate soils, now if they all want preps etc. we are doing a bit of a flip out here!! Oh well, such is the farming life -- feast or famine! Best wishes to you all, Cheryl Kemp Education & Advisory Coordinator Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 -----Original Message----- From: Rambler To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, 8 April 1999 11:38 am Subject: Re: composting, mulching vs "cleanliness" >Anita Graf (Staff) wrote: >> >> Getting back to this topic.. >> >> For anyone interested in "development" work, I would suggest that the >> only way to get mulching and other sustainable and organic methods to >> be practiced is to develop markets for the resulting ag products. >> When you can go to people and say, "we have a way for you to sell >> your products better, but it requires you to follow A,B, & C >> requisites," I doubt anyone will bat an eye. They'd probably stand >> on their heads if it were required to participate in a more lucrative >> market. Then, once new methods are installed, habits formed, and >> alliances made, you can start talking about such esoteric concepts as >> soil fertility, soil conservation, and ecological integrity. (You >> might have to wait a few incarnations to get around to RS ag >> lectures...) I wish somebody would have informed me of this before I >> went out and wasted a lot of time trying to convert hearts and minds >> before trying to convert immediate economic realities. >> >> Anita >> >> > >Dear Guillermo, >> > >Since you seem to do outreach work and you're in Mexico, I'm >> > >wondering how this idea of covered earth is received by others >> > >there. When I worked in sustainable ag in Dominican Republic, I >> > >preached the gospel of covered earth, but was pretty much ignored. >> > >The habit of seeing anything other than bare dirt (usually soil had >> > >already been swept away) as "dirty" (sucio) prevailed. It was even >> > >taken to ridiculous extremes. I remember one family in particular >> > >that did its best to have the "best looking" yard around, and what >> > >that ended up meaning was the foundation of their house and the >> > >nearby trees rising up from the ground (you know, visa versa, the >> > >earth was dimishing below them). It is amazing what an army of >> > >brooms can do. But they took the extra step of spraying herbicide on >> > >the few tufts of grass that dared to show themselves. This was the >> > >community model for ag fields as well. But how different is that >> > >from this country where everyone has Scott's Turf Builder-ammended >> > >deserts in their front yards? How do we train people to see with >> > >different eyes? When will "clean and lovely" be recognized as >> > >"denuded and lifeless"? Oops, sorry for the rant. >> > >> > >> > >> > Yes Anita, it is the same story here. >> > >> > In a semiurban setting it is quite normal to see the bare ground around the house. Amidst a whole array of plants growing in containers and some times in the soil, but no ground cover. The areas of> In the well off urban areas, we have the plague of English grass that characterize the middle class of the world. It looks "better", but it takes a lot of tap water and effort to keep. >> > >> > In the rural setting, where I work, the modern campesinos like to see their land completely clean of ag debris after harvest and it is kept that way for a number of very dry and windy months. The o> So I guess the story of Dominican R., Africa, Mexico, etc. is pretty similar, is'nt ? >> > >> > Kind regards. >> > >> > Guillermo Romero I. >> > Comala, Colima, MEXICO >> > >> > >> > >> >> Anita Graf >> 313-F Conner Hall >> Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics >> University of Georgia >> Athens, GA 30602-7509 >> (706) 542-1915 phone >> (706) 542-0739 fax >> agraf@agecon.uga.edu >Hi Anita The same also applies when talking to people about going >organic. When asked how is my organic growing working out my first reply >is that my profit margin is getting better every year, that the whole >process is becoming easier each year, than I casualy mention that I use >Rudolf Steiners' philosophies of sustainable and profitable farming and >explain how it has some wonderful tools that helps me overcome things >like pest and diseases. Sometimes you hook them, sometimes you lose >them. > >I have been using this approach for some time with a local flower >growers group that I belong to. After the last meeting when it was >explained that new laws on the use of chemicals was going to make life >more difficult, about 4 or 5 growers approached me about organic growing >subseqeint to that I have been asked to speak to this group about >Organic flower growing over a 2 day period in mid May. My approach will >be along the lines that organic flower growing is sustainable and >profitable for small farmers which many of our members are. > >Later in the month I have been asked to speak to a of local garden club >circle about the same topic. Interest in organics is increasing. > >Anita. Thanks for your thougths it is very refreshing to hear from >someone else who also thinks along the same lines it is very encouraging >when sometimes you think one is out in the wilderness in this world. > >Cheers >tony Robinson >Rambler FLowers >New Zealand. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 8 05:00:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA20417 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 05:00:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA10561; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 04:47:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA10395 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 04:44:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([203.96.101.106]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990408084827.GTGZ5596385.mta1-rme@default> for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:48:27 +1200 Message-ID: <370C6DBD.4837@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 20:50:05 +1200 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Spring Care for Asparagus Beds References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 569 Hi Alan Asparagus likes to be weed free , it also likes plenty of compost. With spears due soon you havn't much time . As Pam has suggested rake off weeds being careful not snag and pull out crowns , cover crowns with a good layer of compost and keep pathways free of weeds with a push hoe or a flame weed burner. Because your asparagus has been neglected do not over pick. Allow good frond growth to feed the crowns for next year. A dense canopy will also supres summer weed growth. Spray with a liquid manure as many times as you can remember duing the season on a leaf day week of full moon will also help re build the beds up for future years. Hope you get some yummy asparagus this season. Kindest regards Tony Robinson Rambler FlowersIntergalactic Garage wrote: > > Hi! > > I'm taking over several large beds of asparagus. The spears themselves > won't be up for several more weeks (I think!), but since these beds have > been neglected for many years and are covered with burdock, dead nettle, > and many other annual and perennial weeds and have not been fertilized in a > dozen years, I'm wondering if anyone has any tips on how to weed the beds > or to fertilize in the spring without causing a lot of problems. > > I won't consider any chemical solutions, but in the spirit of Pfeiffer, I'm > willing to stray quite far from the BD norm to bring these beds back into > bd treatment. > > Thanks in advance for any help you can offer. > > -Allan > igg@igg.com Levin NewZealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 8 06:16:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA21001 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 06:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA14140; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 06:04:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA14002 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 06:01:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.103] (pm3shep2-163-103.intrepid.net [209.190.163.103]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA14103 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 06:04:57 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <370C6DBD.4837@xtra.co.nz> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 05:31:26 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: Spring Care for Asparagus Beds Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 570 >Hi Alan Asparagus likes to be weed free , it also likes plenty of >compost. With spears due soon you havn't much time . >As Pam has suggested rake off weeds being careful not snag and pull out >crowns , cover crowns with a good layer of compost and keep pathways >free of weeds with a push hoe or a flame weed burner. >Because your asparagus has been neglected do not over pick. Allow good >frond growth to feed the crowns for next year. A dense canopy will also >supres summer weed growth. Spray with a liquid manure as many times as >you can remember duing the season on a leaf day week of full moon will >also help re build the beds up for future years. >Hope you get some yummy asparagus this season. > >Kindest regards >Tony Robinson >Rambler Flowers Thanks, Tony, What would you have in mind for a 'liquid manure'? -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 8 10:02:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA23994 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:02:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28867; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:49:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coyote.rain.org (root@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28617 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:47:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pppsals (s31.max1.sb.rain.org [198.68.144.238]) by coyote.rain.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA21884 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 06:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002801be81c6$59d08ca0$ee9044c6@pppsals> From: "Sal" To: References: Subject: Re: Spring Care for Asparagus Beds Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 06:47:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 571 I always let the chickens work the asparagus beds by throwing a little grain in them and they seem to keep it clean. any other ideas outthere check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Intergalactic Garage To: Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 9:31 PM Subject: Spring Care for Asparagus Beds > Hi! > > I'm taking over several large beds of asparagus. The spears themselves > won't be up for several more weeks (I think!), but since these beds have > been neglected for many years and are covered with burdock, dead nettle, > and many other annual and perennial weeds and have not been fertilized in a > dozen years, I'm wondering if anyone has any tips on how to weed the beds > or to fertilize in the spring without causing a lot of problems. > > I won't consider any chemical solutions, but in the spirit of Pfeiffer, I'm > willing to stray quite far from the BD norm to bring these beds back into > bd treatment. > > Thanks in advance for any help you can offer. > > -Allan > igg@igg.com > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 8 10:16:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24334 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00532; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:04:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00115 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:00:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp62.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.162]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA00192 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:01:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <001d01be81c8$b291e260$a24b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie M." To: Subject: Sal & http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:04:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 572 Hey Sal! I didn't know you were on this list...if you're just on, WELCOME!....your site is a wonderful resource, and I love your attitude (having seen your posts on other lists) I'm not surprised you found your way here...this list is chock-full of organic & BD legendary hero-types... :-) Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 8 11:04:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25480 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:04:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07334; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.frontiernet.net (node21.frontiernet.net [209.130.129.196]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06937 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:48:24 -0400 (EDT) From: bhstudio@frontiernet.net Received: from default (209-130-160-185.nas-1.VIR.frontiernet.net [209.130.160.185]) by mail.frontiernet.net (8.8.8a/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA160186 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:51:55 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990408094933.007d8770@frontiernet.net> X-Sender: bhstudio@frontiernet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 09:49:33 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: mail prob In-Reply-To: <001d01be81c8$b291e260$a24b2e9c@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 573 Folks: Our mail server glitched. If there were any messages of import between the hysterical "how to price a cow" & the one below, could someone resend?? We lost all mail from about 9pm CDST -9:30 a.m. 4-7---4-8 R&R At 09:04 AM 4/8/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hey Sal! > >I didn't know you were on this list...if you're just on, WELCOME!....your >site is a wonderful resource, and I love your attitude (having seen your >posts on other lists) I'm not surprised you found your way here...this list >is chock-full of organic & BD legendary hero-types... :-) > >Julie > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 8 11:48:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26485 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:48:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13928; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13550 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:33:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B027B0@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:36:48 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 8 Apr 99 11:36:45 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 8 Apr 99 11:36:34 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:36:33 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Coffee Seed? Priority: normal In-reply-to: <19990407190804.47074.qmail@hotmail.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <209D3273A51@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 574 Personally, I've only seen coffee planted by seed. Presumably this is only for non-hybridized varieties as anything that's hybridized would exhibit the uncertainty of results from seeds that you mention below. (We are talking about the coffee that you drink -- Juan Valdez, Maxwell House, and all that, right?) There have also been some informative posts on the Sanet about coffee fungi lately. Basically, you need to grow coffee above a certain elevation to make it sustainable, much less organic. Anita > I may be mistaken, but I think I have read you have to propigate > coffee from cuttings. Each variety is slightly differnt, like oranges > and peaches, they will not breed the same from the seed. I have seen > coffee plants in garden catalogs. Next time I run across one, I will > post it. > Lynnaea > > > >From: "Woody Wodraska" > >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org > >To: > >Subject: Coffee Seed? > >Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:00:24 -0700 > > > >Can anyone help these folks? Guillermo? PatandLiz? > > > >Woody > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: jr. and mary > >To: aurora@kootenay.com > >Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 3:04 PM > > > > > >Do you have any idea where I might look for coffee seeds to grow > coffee plants? Thank you for your time > >Leo. > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 8 13:42:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00299 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:42:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA29823; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:29:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29458 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:27:48 -0400 (EDT) From: HMSTDFRMS@aol.com Received: from HMSTDFRMS@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.7) id hLSGa26933 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:30:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <62b391ef.243e41c6@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:30:46 EDT Subject: Re: Poultry in Asparagus To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 575 Has anyone left the chickens in the asparagus after the harvest period is over? Will they concentrate on the insects, or enjoy a feast of asparagus ferns? Also wondering about ranging my turkeys in the bed during the late summer. Linda Homestead Farms From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 8 16:55:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA05156 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:55:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00456; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yancey.main.nc.us (yancey.main.nc.us [209.192.111.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00157 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:39:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from donnas (ppp13.yancey.main.nc.us [209.192.111.144]) by yancey.main.nc.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27058 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:44:24 -0400 Message-ID: <000e01be81ff$430b2500$906fc0d1@donnas> From: "donnas" To: Subject: Re: Spring Care for Asparagus Beds Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:34:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 576 I have an asparagus bed and I was told that since asparagus is native along sandy coastal dunes, that it liked a little salt. Since I didn't know what "a little" amounted to exactly...... I have been using kelp meal with my regular compost. I would caution about raking and would recommend hand weeding wherever possible....... I walked out to the asparagus patch a couple of years ago to find my supposedly knowledgeable "helper" , "helping" by raking the asparagus bed while standing in it.... and of course raking up precious roots. That situation went sour immediately! Dona From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 8 17:25:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA05802 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:25:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05079; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:12:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04806 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B08A1E@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:14:20 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 8 Apr 99 17:14:17 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 8 Apr 99 17:14:02 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:14:01 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: composting, mulching vs "cleanliness" Priority: normal In-reply-to: <007a01be8193$f61ca2c0$5b431ccb@bio> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <20F733933FA@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 577 > I dont really agree though with your thought Anita, that by providing a > market, the organic production will come through. At Heinz-Watties in > Christchurch NZ, the company has a huge need for Organic frozen veges and > they are trying to get more growers all the time, they offer full support, > high premium price for product and are even doing a lot of research for > organic problems, such as machines to do mechanical weeding in carrots etc. > But do you think they can get enough growers- no way - too conservative > there, can't have the next door farmer think you are different!! > I find the farmer has to have a crisis of some kind, hip-pocket nerve or > health to make him think and push him past the barriers of change. The > other way is new farmers coming in, like city people buying land, who choose > not to work with chemicals, and they search out better ways. They do not > have the traditions of using chemicals and also they are already different > in the community, so it doesnt matter. > In a recent study done here it was found that the farmers who change because > of perceived higher premiums are the least succesful, and the philosophical > and health problems ones the most successful after a three year period. For > when they hit a challenge it become too hard for the first lot. Yes, cultural considerations are very, very important. I was specifically refering to the "development" situation with third world farmers (like in Latin America) who face huge cultural constraints but even bigger economic ones. Many of these farmers are desperate for markets in ANY kind of ag product and are confined by such basic things as inadequate roads and transportation. In my experience, farmers are a conservative lot, not keen on change or new fangled ideas. Organic or even sustainable practices are now the new fangled idea. But it's a very complicated and tricky issue, as you pointed out with the gigantic farmers there who now want to go bd or organic. I could say more, but it's the end of the computor day for me, so I'm going to leave this here. Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 8 22:24:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA11976 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:24:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09158; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08480 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:07:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from junkpile - 208.253.68.210 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 19:10:22 -0700 From: "Mary Manson" To: , "BDNow list" Subject: Re: Off : GMO ORGANIC CONTAMINATION Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 19:38:44 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <0cf6b2210020949CPIMSSMTPU09@email.msn.com> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 578 Line is forming to sue Monsanto for lost revenue ..... (isn't it ????) -----Original Message----- From: Cheryl Kemp To: BDNow list Date: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 12:43 AM Subject: Fw: Off : GMO ORGANIC CONTAMINATION >Dont know if you got this news in USA, but I thought it was important. >Cheryl Kemp. >-----Original Message----- >From: Organic Federation of Australia Inc >To: ofa@netspace.net.au >Date: Tuesday, 6 April 1999 12:25 pm >Subject: GMO ORGANIC CONTAMINATION > > >>Dear All, >> >>Email received by Dick Copeman. >> >>Gmo's are an obvious threat to the rapidly expanding organic industry both >>here and overseas. >> >>Regards, >> >>Scott Kinnear >> >>************************* >> >> >>Copyright 1999 Madison Newspapers, Inc. Wisconsin State Journal >> >>March 24, 1999, Wednesday, ALL EDITIONS >> >>Wind-Blown Genes Cut Into Organic Profits >> >>Rick Barrett Agribusiness reporter >> >>Bad news could be blowing in the wind for organic farmers and food >>companies if their crops are contaminated from the airborne pollen of >>genetically altered crops. In one case, a Hudson food company recently lost >>$ 170,000 in sales after its organic corn chips tested positive for >>genetically engineered corn. The company, Prima Terra, had shipped 80,000 >>bags of chips to Holland -- only to have them fail a random "gene scan" by >>government inspectors. Under European regulations, the chips could not be >>sold as organic even though only one bag in the shipment might have been >>contaminated. Prima Terra destroyed all of the chips rather than ship them >>back to the United States. >> >>After the incident last December, Prima Terra didn't ship any chips for two >>months until it was certain it had found the source of the contamination, >>said company president Charles Walker. The source was pollen from >>genetically engineered corn that blew into an organic farmer's corn field >>in Texas. The corn had a patented gene inserted into it that made it >>artificially resistant to bugs -- something not allowed in organic farming. >>It might have come from a neighboring field or it might have come from >>miles away, as corn pollen travels in the wind. ''But either way it was a >>nightmare for us,'' Walker said, adding that it cut deep into company corn >>chip profits for an entire year. >> >>------------------ >> >>Dick Copeman >>Consumer Food Network >>223 Logan Road, Buranda QLD 4102 >>Australia >>Ph (+61) 07 3217 3187 >>Fx (+61) 07 3217 3028 >> >>Scott Kinnear >> >>Chairperson >>Organic Federation of Australia >>C/- 452 Lygon St >>East Brunswick >>Victoria 3057 >>Australia >> >>Ph 61 3 9386 6600 >>Fax 61 3 9384 1322 >> > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 9 01:47:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA15364 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 01:47:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA29726; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 01:32:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA29618 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 01:30:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.143] (max8-18.stc.net [208.210.134.146]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA04127; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 01:34:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <370CE33B.3A18@interx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 23:31:16 -0400 To: Greg Willis From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Too Much! Cc: bdnow@envirolink.org Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 579 > I am going to be absolutely blunt. There is not time left to be >otherwise. It is my strongest belief that if we don't follow Dr. >Steiner's admonition and get our BD acts together by the end of this >century, there will be no biodynamics. It will atrophy to the point >that it will be no more effective than "organic" agriculture. That is >why I, and others like Hugh Lovel and Hugh Courtney, are working so hard >to drag biodynamics out of the traditional mold and into the next >century. That is why I champion Horn Clay so strongly. If we don't use >Horn Clay now, BD will be dead in 5 years. > You in the Southern Hemisphere will see the degradation before we in >the Northern Hemisphere will see it. I have spoken to people in NZ who >are already seeing it. Consider Cosmic Pipes. > >Cheers, > >Greg Willis > Dear Greg, Cheryl, BD Listers, etc., I've been thinking along similar lines for well over a dozen years. Long ago I extrapolated that at the past rate of progress (including various exponential growth curve models) BD methods might finally sweep the world in two or three hundred years, and then only if they improved markedly somewhere along the way. Does mankind and the Earth have that kind of time? Judging from the sort of comments Uncle Rudolf made in his agriculture lectures about the dying condition of the Earth I suspect not. Judging from the sort of wider and wider spread of disrupting and deadly conditions I have seen in my life and the way the agencies of death have consistantly outstripped the progress of remedies during my lifetime I'm sure we don't have much time left at all. With this in mind along with a vision of the (as yet unrealized) potential of biodynamic agriculture I've pursued a path of development aimed at vastly multiplying the effectiveness of BD methods. And I've made some progress, perhaps as much as 10% of what I envisioned. Since I envisioned about a hundredfold increase in effectiveness this means I'm seeing at least a tenfold increase in effectiveness in what I'm doing now as compared to the traditional BD methods I learned and most BDers practice today. Some of the milestones along the way have been (1) Harvey Lisle's insight that we really miss the boat unless we apply ALL the BD preps in pretty much as close to back-to-back a fashion as we can manage, (2) My own development of Galen Hieronymus's Cosmic Pipe concept into a stationary, self-driven etheric field broadcaster of all the BD preps for BOTH soil AND atmospheric ether fields, and (3) Greg Willis' work with horn clay which provides that all-important missing middle prep that bridges between the polarities of lime (earthly, inner planets) and silica (cosmic, outer planets), and in my experience does what our skins do for us, puts a protective membrane (kind of like an energy dome) over one's land. There have been a number of other developments, improvements and refinements including Hugh Courtney's discovery that sequential spraying ameliorates extreme weather conditions, Peter Proctor's advocacy of flow forms for potentization and also Courtney's development of homeopathic milk and honey sprays. But the first three listed above really stand out in my personal experience. Harvey was ever so right that the farm must be thought of as a living organism, an organic whole, and can't just do brain development for a year and then switch channels to development of eyes and ears. Over the years I've come to understand the resistance I've encountered about using a simple etheric field broadcasting instrument (a very simple device) to apply the preps instead of motors, machinery, compaction, physical damage, pollution, and enormous expenses involved in spraying large acreages. The BD preps are VERY powerful and when applied back-to-back each and every day their power scares the hell out of some folks. Now with Greg Willis' horn clay, the "missing" BD prep, providing the middle that ties the whole BD organism together I'm inclined to think there's hope of turning the corner and getting on the inside track in this race with death. There's a lot more that must be done to improve BD methods before we go into the stretch. We've got a lot of experimenting to do yet to find the most effective ways to use BD insights. It's important to set aside our illusions, petty jealousies and personal ambitions whenever we find they arise. There's no time left for those things. And just for starters it wouldn't happen to be an illusion that were not in a struggle with dark forces, or these dark forces haven't nearly won the day, or that we can relax and let the forces of light pull our chestnuts out of the fire, would it? I don't usually go in for spreading alarm, or for that matter casting blame. Rather I like to face the problems I see and get right down to business dealing with them--which is why I've done so much to develop the use of the cosmic pipe in BD agriculture. I want to see the reclaimation of the Sahara desert get successfully underway in my lifetime. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 9 08:30:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA19094 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:30:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA17583; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:17:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17529 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:17:07 -0400 (EDT) From: JHatf18942@aol.com Received: from JHatf18942@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id hEXKa21399 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:19:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3de1b797.243f4a6f@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:19:59 EDT Subject: soil ammendments To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 86 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 580 Can anyone offer me more insight into the usage of these four soil amendments. Boron, Zinc Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, and Sulfate of Potash. They were recommended after a recent soil test, at very low rates (2-4lbs./acre). Except the Potash (100lbs./acre). Is there a better way to handle these deficiencies? The Manganese did test low but Boron, Zinc, and Potassium were all just below medium. Thanks for your help. Jeff Hatfield From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 9 10:31:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA21161 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:31:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28143; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:18:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27736 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:15:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B102F9@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:19:02 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 9 Apr 99 10:19:00 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 9 Apr 99 10:18:48 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:18:39 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: soil ammendments Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3de1b797.243f4a6f@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <220882C26BA@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 581 Can anyone offer me more insight into the usage of these four soil amendments. Boron, Zinc Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, and Sulfate of Potash. They were recommended after a recent soil test, at very low rates (2-4lbs./acre). Except the Potash (100lbs./acre). Is there a better way to handle these deficiencies? The Manganese did test low but Boron, Zinc, and Potassium were all just below medium. Thanks for your help. Jeff Hatfield Well, unless everyone else is too busy out in their fields planting (this list has really gotten quiet since the spring hit!) I'm sure you'll get plenty of response. My guess is that it will be the consensus that your question is framed more in the framework of straight organic or even conventional ag. Though I am a mere baby in bd, I believe that a bd perspective would look more at the balance between elements, a la the RS ag lectures. And whatever short term solutions there may be (perhaps spraying silica to combat a "lime" imbalance?) your ultimate solution lies in excellent compost, as well as following the normal prep recommondatons. Because of your question and because of your soil imbalances, I'm guessing you haven't been bd for long. I haven't given you much practical advise, but I would suggest that you really observe your land, the plants that grow there (are their leaves round and full or thin and pointy? are the plants low-lieing or heaven-bound?) because then when the other more knowledgable bd farmers log on and get around to answering your question, you will have some quality info to share with them that will be meaningful to them. Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 9 10:53:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA21575 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:53:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01266; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:40:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cougar.ssi.stratus.com (cougar.ssi.stratus.com [198.97.42.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01079 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:38:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by cougar.ssi.stratus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09162 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:40:06 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 09:40:06 -0400 (EDT) Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Charlie Hodgson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Too Much! Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 582 Hi all, I'm a lurker here; It's been an interesting ride to get here and hopefully my comments will be appreciated. Greg Willis said: >It is my strongest belief that if we don't follow Dr. >Steiner's admonition and get our BD acts together by the end of this >century, there will be no biodynamics. Hugh Lovel wrote: > Long ago I extrapolated that at the past rate of progress (including > various exponential growth curve models) BD methods might finally sweep the > world in two or three hundred years, and then only if they improved > markedly somewhere along the way. Does mankind and the Earth have that kind > of time? I'm an outsider; not a farmer. My interest in BD is a little vague though I have considered getting into organic gardening and taking things from there. I got here by way of my son; he's 9 and has Autism. Tests last year revealed high levels of heavy metals and various pesticide-type organics in his system; we chose radionics treatment overchelation; Radionics brought me here, and Hugh Lovel's Cosmic Pipe has kept me interested.  I feel that acceptance of BD methods can be better achieved by getting the public involved as well. In my readings of various fringe science theories and practices that have gained acceptance and become mainstream, advocates often cite that once critical mass in an idea is reached, it snowballs. I've believe the number was 4%. As a somewhat typical citizen, I am concerned about the enviornment, how big business is polluting the earth, destruction of the rain forest, etc.Eating organic foods is more of a personal health issue then one of saving the planet. Most enlightened people I know think along similar lines. But we all use miracle grow and various other agro-chemicals on our gardens. With a chemically sensitive child I have greatly curtailed my use of these poisons, but, for the typical consumer, they are necessary; lest we be cited for not having a pretty lawn. I would like to see BD methods available to the weekend gardener. What about a cosmic pipe for less than an acre of land? If a small fraction of the ecologically-concerned homeowners and backyard gardeners were aware of BD methods, and these where available to them, they would see that it works; once done, neighbors would sign on. If my lawn was beautiful and beetles weren't devouring my flowers, my neighbors would ask what I was using. Seeing is believing. Corporate giants like ADM, Monsanto and Dow have the population brainwashed about 'better living through chemistry'. I lie unchallenged becomes truth. Charlie Hodgson Woodstock, GA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 9 12:45:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA23839 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 12:45:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17463; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 12:33:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17181 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 12:32:01 -0400 (EDT) From: JHatf18942@aol.com Received: from JHatf18942@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id hAAEa16622 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 12:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 12:32:51 EDT Subject: Re: soil ammendments To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 86 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 583 Anita- Thanks for your reply. I will be using the BD preps for the second year, and certified organic for the third. My reason for posting this question was mostly due to my lack of knowledge about any of these ammendments or where they are derived from.This was our first soil test and was done mostly to develop a point of reference. I guess my main concern is making sure the plants will have what they need over time, not necessarily a quick fix approach. The site tested is a 60-70 year old orchard on sandy loam with a ph of 7. My intuition tells me to follow other recommendations of adding gypsum and rock phosphate, either through the compost or directly to the soil. Thanks again, and greetings from the U.P.. Jeff Hatfield From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 9 16:12:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA28323 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 16:12:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14900; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA14486 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B1636B@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:59:42 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 9 Apr 99 15:59:50 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 9 Apr 99 15:59:43 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:59:36 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: soil ammendments Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <226363576BA@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 584 > Anita- Thanks for your reply. I will be using the BD preps for the second > year, and certified organic for the third. My reason for posting this > question was mostly due to my lack of knowledge about any of these > ammendments or where they are derived from.This was our first soil test and > was done mostly to develop a point of reference. I guess my main concern is > making sure the plants will have what they need over time, not necessarily a > quick fix approach. The site tested is a 60-70 year old orchard on sandy > loam with a ph of 7. My intuition tells me to follow other recommendations > of adding gypsum and rock phosphate, either through the compost or directly > to the soil. Thanks again, and greetings from the U.P.. Jeff Hatfield Greetings to you Jeff, I look forward to seeing replies from the bd farmers. I think you would get support for the gypsum and rock phosphate idea. I have to also acknowledge my own aversion to "supplements" (on the farm or in my diet) and the thinking that goes along with this, and tell you that I doubt the bd community in general shares my view to such a degree. I also recognize that as a farmer you have to integrate practicable with idealistic. One question, are your harvests suffering? One question to maybe put to others more knowledgable than I is if there are more suitable plants to grow under your current conditions (one's that will thrive in this environ, one's that will mediate the environment). I wanted to address the form of your question mostly because I believe we see what we are looking for, that is, the answers we get are directly related to the questions we ask. Best to you! Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 9 17:11:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA00112 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22811; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 16:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ww190.netaddress.usa.net (ww190.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.90]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22455 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 16:56:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 17991 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Apr 1999 21:00:14 -0000 Message-ID: <19990409210014.17990.qmail@ww190.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.90 by ww190 via web-mailer(M3.0.0.60) on Fri Apr 9 21:00:14 GMT 1999 Date: 9 Apr 99 14:00:14 PDT From: jane mcleroy To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: [Re: Too Much!] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.0.0.60) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id QAA22460 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 585 Hugh Lovel wrote: > I am going to be absolutely blunt. There is not time left to be >otherwise. It is my strongest belief that if we don't follow Dr. >Steiner's admonition and get our BD acts together by the end of this >century, there will be no biodynamics. It will atrophy to the point >that it will be no more effective than "organic" agriculture. That is >why I, and others like Hugh Lovel and Hugh Courtney, are working so hard >to drag biodynamics out of the traditional mold and into the next >century. That is why I champion Horn Clay so strongly. If we don't use >Horn Clay now, BD will be dead in 5 years. > You in the Southern Hemisphere will see the degradation before we in >the Northern Hemisphere will see it. I have spoken to people in NZ who >are already seeing it. Consider Cosmic Pipes. > >Cheers, > >Greg Willis > Dear Greg, Cheryl, BD Listers, etc., I've been thinking along similar lines for well over a dozen years. Long ago I extrapolated that at the past rate of progress (including various exponential growth curve models) BD methods might finally sweep the world in two or three hundred years, and then only if they improved markedly somewhere along the way. Does mankind and the Earth have that kind of time? Judging from the sort of comments Uncle Rudolf made in his agriculture lectures about the dying condition of the Earth I suspect not. Judging from the sort of wider and wider spread of disrupting and deadly conditions I have seen in my life and the way the agencies of death have consistantly outstripped the progress of remedies during my lifetime I'm sure we don't have much time left at all. With this in mind along with a vision of the (as yet unrealized) potential of biodynamic agriculture I've pursued a path of development aimed at vastly multiplying the effectiveness of BD methods. And I've made some progress, perhaps as much as 10% of what I envisioned. Since I envisioned about a hundredfold increase in effectiveness this means I'm seeing at least a tenfold increase in effectiveness in what I'm doing now as compared to the traditional BD methods I learned and most BDers practice today. Some of the milestones along the way have been (1) Harvey Lisle's insight that we really miss the boat unless we apply ALL the BD preps in pretty much as close to back-to-back a fashion as we can manage, (2) My own development of Galen Hieronymus's Cosmic Pipe concept into a stationary, self-driven etheric field broadcaster of all the BD preps for BOTH soil AND atmospheric ether fields, and (3) Greg Willis' work with horn clay which provides that all-important missing middle prep that bridges between the polarities of lime (earthly, inner planets) and silica (cosmic, outer planets), and in my experience does what our skins do for us, puts a protective membrane (kind of like an energy dome) over one's land. There have been a number of other developments, improvements and refinements including Hugh Courtney's discovery that sequential spraying ameliorates extreme weather conditions, Peter Proctor's advocacy of flow forms for potentization and also Courtney's development of homeopathic milk and honey sprays. But the first three listed above really stand out in my personal experience. Harvey was ever so right that the farm must be thought of as a living organism, an organic whole, and can't just do brain development for a year and then switch channels to development of eyes and ears. Over the years I've come to understand the resistance I've encountered about using a simple etheric field broadcasting instrument (a very simple device) to apply the preps instead of motors, machinery, compaction, physical damage, pollution, and enormous expenses involved in spraying large acreages. The BD preps are VERY powerful and when applied back-to-back each and every day their power scares the hell out of some folks. Now with Greg Willis' horn clay, the "missing" BD prep, providing the middle that ties the whole BD organism together I'm inclined to think there's hope of turning the corner and getting on the inside track in this race with death. There's a lot more that must be done to improve BD methods before we go into the stretch. We've got a lot of experimenting to do yet to find the most effective ways to use BD insights. It's important to set aside our illusions, petty jealousies and personal ambitions whenever we find they arise. There's no time left for those things. And just for starters it wouldn't happen to be an illusion that were not in a struggle with dark forces, or these dark forces haven't nearly won the day, or that we can relax and let the forces of light pull our chestnuts out of the fire, would it? I don't usually go in for spreading alarm, or for that matter casting blame. Rather I like to face the problems I see and get right down to business dealing with them--which is why I've done so much to develop the use of the cosmic pipe in BD agriculture. I want to see the reclaimation of the Sahara desert get successfully underway in my lifetime. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry Greetings, All, I'm fairly new to both the 'net and this list, but I'd like to catch up on the dirt about horn clay. Can anybody tell me where to dig? Many thanks, Jane ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 9 22:22:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA01504 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 22:22:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA19479; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 20:51:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19183 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 20:49:08 -0400 (EDT) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA22720; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 19:50:22 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 19:50:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md17-38.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.166) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma022691; Fri Apr 9 19:50:00 1999 To: r.simpson@erols.com To: Philyour@aol.com To: mkweskin@farmland.org To: jkliwinski@aol.com To: jasonab@mediaone.net To: garlicgr@pond.com To: email2fm@aol.com To: dgregory@eden.rutgers.edu To: Compostgal@aol.com To: community_garden@mallorn.com To: bhappy14@juno.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <199949205210641@ix.netcom.com> Subject: organic farm apprenticeship available X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 586 RWS Ecosystem Farm Organic Farm Apprenticeship Accokeek Foundation RWS Ecosystem Farm 3400 Bryan Point Road Accokeek, MD 20607 Contacts: Shane LaBrake (301) 283-2113 (301) 283-2049 FAX e-mail: ecofarm@accokeek.org (Please, no emailed apprenticeship inquiries.) URL: http://www.accokeek.org We offer a nine month apprenticeship position for those seriously committed to learning the craft of farming. The position starts April 1999. Individualized instruction and experience are offered in all aspects of organic vegetable production, including the use of modern farm machinery We operate a Community Supported Agriculture Program (CSA), that serves 80 households. We grow over 65 varieties of vegetables, herbs, and flowers. We are a demonstration farm actively engaged in adaptive research and education. We farm on an eight acre field that is certified organic. The field has a long history of harmful farming practices, thus soil regeneration is a major component of our work. The farm is located within the boundaries of Piscataway Park / National Parks East and is managed by The Accokeek Foundation in trust with the National Parks Service. The farm sits on the banks of the Potomac River across from Mount Vernon in Southern Maryland. Experience in organic agriculture is preferred, though not necessary. A strong desire to learn, work outdoors in all types of weather, and work hard under pressure are required. The apprentice will work from mid-April through December. There can be an option to stay for a second season as a senior apprentice. We offer a monthly stipend of $1250 and will assist the apprentice in finding local and affordable housing. The Accokeek Foundation is an Equal Opportunity Employer. If interested please contact Shane LaBrake at the above phone number. Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD BTW, if you don't know how to grow your own food you don't really have any clout, Y2K or not, so... LEARN! How many millions of Americans live in poorly made, over-priced houses built on farm land, race twice daily at deadly speeds to and from a toxic city to do a job they don't really like in a plastic office so they can get money to give to someone else in order to eat food? Food is power... are you in control of yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 10 00:19:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA04363 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:19:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA05058; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:06:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA04310 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:00:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.37] (max14-14.stc.net [208.210.137.142]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA20531 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:03:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3de1b797.243f4a6f@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 22:42:38 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: soil ammendments Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 587 >Can anyone offer me more insight into the usage of these four soil >amendments. Boron, Zinc Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, and Sulfate of Potash. >They were recommended after a recent soil test, at very low rates >(2-4lbs./acre). Except the Potash (100lbs./acre). Is there a better way to >handle these deficiencies? The Manganese did test low but Boron, Zinc, and >Potassium were all just below medium. >Thanks for your help. >Jeff Hatfield Dear Jeff, The usual form boron is recommended in is disodium octoborate tetrahydrate, a soluble boron compound containing about 20% boron. You might note the other recommendations are all sulfates, which are the best forms to get soluble salt fertilizers in since sulfur is what the spirit "wets its feet" with in coming into interaction with matter. My general rule is, if deficient in any of the cationic, lime polarity elements, add them--at least in the short term. The question you might ask, however, is WHY are you deficient in these? They all are more or less mobile elements and may "fall through" the topsoil. Do you have a sandy soil? Too little clay? How is what clay you have working? Are rots and insects common to your location? If so you may have too much downward working digestive forces (lime polarity) and too little upward working forces (silica polarity). You may want to give a little more emphasis to the horn silica. However, the horn silica and the horn manure work together like a see-saw. One goes up while the other goes down. NEITHER operate properly without the horn clay, which works in the middle to mediate between the two, much like the fulcrum or balance point in the see-saw. For now the only way I can offer you to get horn clay (the missing BD prep) is as a homeopathic reagent for use in a Cosmic Pipe. If you haven't heard of the Cosmic Pipe yet, you may write to me for information. Best, Hugh Lovel Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 10 00:20:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA04374 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA05113; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA04560 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:03:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.37] (max14-14.stc.net [208.210.137.142]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA20680 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:06:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 22:45:29 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Too Much! Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 588 >I would like to see BD methods available to the weekend gardener. What about a >cosmic pipe for less than an acre of land? If a small fraction of the >ecologically-concerned homeowners and backyard gardeners were aware of BD >methods, and these where available to them, they would see that it works; once >done, neighbors would sign on. If my lawn was beautiful and beetles weren't >devouring my flowers, my neighbors would ask what I was using. Seeing is >believing. Corporate giants like ADM, Monsanto and Dow have the population >brainwashed about 'better living through chemistry'. I lie unchallenged >becomes >truth. > >Charlie Hodgson >Woodstock, GA Dear Charlie, I make a garden model, which is $50 cheaper than the field model. Hugh Lovel Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 10 00:50:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA04601 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:50:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA07810; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:37:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07742 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:36:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.37] (max14-14.stc.net [208.210.137.142]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA22406 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:40:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990405180806.39849.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 23:19:04 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Study ? whats happehing? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 589 >Hmmm, I joined after the last posting on the study. Can anyone fill me >in on what book it is you are studying? I would like to learn, does >anyone have some of the old posts? >Lynnaea Dear Lynnaea, We sure have lagged with the study currently. Partly that is a sign that everyone is too busy for this project, but partly it is a sign that we have bogged down over some misunderstood territory. What we were studying was Rudlof Steiner's eight lecture course on AGRICULTURE, the Creeger/Gardner translation. A while back, after being away nearly all winter, I composed a brief summary of our progress to date. It's a bit inadequate, but I think it will get you started. You may purchase the book from the BD Association (ask Allan for the address) and try your hand at reading it. There's a lot there, but not a lot of guidance with unfamiliar concepts. I've tried to give some assistance there. Here's my summary: Dear Study Circle, I've been away since December, had serious e-mail trouble, lost my files and had to learn a new program. Sorry. First, please let me introduce some prefatory material to explain what Steiner talks about as ether, or life force. This ether interpenetrates substance, just as the astrality interpenetrates ether, and so on. We should keep in mind that for those in the audience at Koberwitz when Steiner delivered this course of lectures, Steiner had already spent some years explaining what he meant by such terms as ether, astral, etc. There is no explanation of these terms in the agriculture course. Moreover, the dictionary is no help. If we are to understand these lectures we start out by defining these terms. Here is some background on ether: In (some parts of) India it is customary to relate the elements to the fingers on the hand. Each of the four actual fingers represents one of the four elements--fire (middle finger), earth (little finger), air (index finger) and water (ring finger). The thumb, however, represents the ether "finger" since it makes all the other fingers work. >From this it may be seen that the ether is not like the other elements, but in conjunction with the elements ether is the enlivener and facilitator of activity. Also implicit is the fact that ether doesn't work by itself but in conjunction with the elements it works wonders. Each element is permeated by its ether. The fire element is permeated by warmth. Or you might say it IS warmth since this is the crossover from substance into ether. You know, force is liberated matter, matter is force in bondage. As for air, this is permeated by the light ether, water by the tone ether, earth by the life ether. So in reality there are four ethers just as there are four elements, and these only have significance insofar as they permeate substance. Substance and spirit always go together like hand in glove. Now for the Agriculture Course. In LECTURE ONE Steiner starts off with the most important thing--the realization that while we are mostly emancipated from direct dependence upon the events and rhythms of the cosmos, plants are utterly dependent upon these and animals somewhat less so. We won't get anywhere understanding agriculture by doing experiments with plants in greenhouse pots in the off-season, shielded from cosmic influences. And though culturally we are used to thinking of the chemical elements in the soil as most important, they are not, and a true understanding of agriculture cannot take this as a starting point. We have to realize that as far as substances go silica (oxides of silicon) and lime (oxides of calcium) play the leading roles BECAUSE OF THEIR ABILITY TO CHANNEL COSMIC FORCES. The silica, which carries the forces of the outer planets, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, and the widest expanses, provides for strong, vertical growth all the way to fruiting and grain ripening. Lime, which on the other hand carries the forces of the inner planets, Moon, Mercury and Venus and the local solar neighborhood, provides for filling things out with rich, horizontal growth and all the chemical transformations pertaining to growth and soil fertility. In LECTURE TWO Steiner introduces some further fundamentals. First, a farm is truest to its essential nature when it is thought of as a complete and independent entity, for the most part supplying what it needs from within its own organism or body. This farm entity may be likened to a human being standing on his head, planted up to his diaphragm in the soil. What is occurring below the surface relates to the head organization and what happens with breathing. This relates to the outer planets, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. There not only is intelligence and sensitivity within the Earth, but when the air--which in the atmosphere is dead--enters the soil it comes alive, just as it does when we breathe it in. Likewise what occurs above ground in the atmosphere relates to the belly organization and the inner planets of Moon, Mercury and Venus. So for the most part refinement, digestion, nourishment, and reproduction primarily occur above ground and nourish the head organization below ground in exchange for the sense of direction and ingestion the head organization provides from below ground. As Steiner says (to put it mildly) "A lively interchange is constantly taking place between what is above ground and what is below ground." Second, he reminds us that it is through silica in the rocks and sand that the outer planets and the distant influences work, while it is through lime that the inner planets and the nearby influences work. Second, though it isn't commonly taken into account today, the way warmth and air work in the atmosphere where they may be thought of as "dead" is not the same as how they work underground where they may be thought of as "living." And also, below ground the way water and earth work is "dead" but when they rise up into the atmosphere they become "living." (Dead may be thought of as free from form, while living may be thought of as bound up in forms.) As water and earth sink into the soil they free themselves from what is above and become receptive to the forces coming from the farthest reaches of the cosmos. This they do to the greatest extent during mid-winter. At this time the tendency toward crystalization or form is greatest within the earth. Just prior to this and somewhat after, as they are decaying and digesting in, is when the minerals radiate forces that are of particular importance for plant growth. Thus during November and December (in the northern hemisphere) there is a period when what goes on beneath the surface has a particularly strong effect on plant growth. If one is dealing with a soil that does not carry these influences upward properly in winter, it needs a dose of clay, since clay is the mediator between silica and lime. The primary importance of clay is to work as a means of transport for the forces from the widest expanses of the cosmos that work upon the siliceous rock and sand within the earth to bring in formative forces (or binding forces). An extremely sandy soil, however, has a tendency to lose these formative forces from the widest expanses and the components of water and earth that are trickling into the soil are not acted upon by these distant cosmic forces. In such a case they fall right through the topsoil and are lost. With clay as a mediator, a medium via which these upward cosmic formative forces can act, these upward working forces become effective in preparing the soil for the next summer's growth. (Later in lecture four Steiner gives recommendations for making preparations to enliven the lime (digestive) and silica (fruiting) polarities but he omits the recommendations he promised to give for clay in lecture two. Recently Greg Willis and myself have been experimenting with such horn clay preparations to be used along with the horn manure and horn silica preparations recommended in lecture four.) In general if we want the forces of the cosmos to take effect in earthly substance this earthly substance must be driven as strongly as possible into chaos. For the most part nature provides the conditions necessary for this, as in decay of plants in the fall, building up of formative forces in the soil in the winter, renewal of plant growth in the spring. It isn't so different with seeds. While mostly it is imagined today that the wonderful complexity of a plant is all encoded in its genetic material, this isn't quite how it works. Imagine planting a seed. It's complex genetic development has reached the apex and it disintegrates into a miniature chaos and the whole surrounding universe works from all sides, albeit from one or another particular constellation (depending upon what kind of plant it is). At this point the seed draws in life by way of what is driven almost all the way (but not quite) to chaos in the soil. This anchors the cosmic forces in the plant so that they then work upward toward new seed formation. This is a long lecture, and Steiner gives a number of further indications, such as the colors the outer planets (Mars, red; Jupiter, yellow; saturn, blue) express as they reach the flowing/fruiting stage of the plant. He hints at how to hold back the cosmic forces into the potato by planting in a sandy soil or to accentuate them if you want fine flavored fruits. Nor should animals be left out. The influences of the outer planets enter the animal with Saturn at the head leading to the Sun at the heart and the Moon at the tail end. With insight into how these forces work into the farm organism by way of the constellations and planets everything necessary to making the farm a self-contained individuality is revealed. Lecture Three gets into occult chemistry. What is the significance of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen and sulfur? Here we put lime and silica aside for a moment and look at organic chemistry. Then we look again at how these five sisters, carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen and sulfur, relate to lime and silica. This is a beautiful lecture, but I don't have time to summarize it for now. I just thought that if we are going to read it with the kind of understanding necessary to grasp it, we have to see it in perspective. That way when we go on to lecture four we can get a few more details under our belts and dive into making biodynamic preparations. Many biodynamic workshops begin with making and using the BD preps. This puts folks in the position of trying to master practical activities without any real comprehension of what it is they are doing or why. Steiner had an overall plan in presenting the material as he did, and if we are to truly understand biodynamics--elevate it to the status of a science rather than a rote procedure--we need this background material before we start making and using preps, which is what chapter four goes into. Best regards, Hugh Lovel . > > >>From: Rambler >>Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >>To: bdnow@envirolink.org >>Subject: Study ? whats happehing? >>Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 21:18:37 +1200 >> >>Dear Study circle What has happened to our studing. Hav'nt seen any >>discussion for alooooooong time. my notes says that we are up to L3.2 >>page 56 and there is still 220 pages to go. >>Hugh LOvel said that Peter Procter said that we have only 10 years left >>to teach tthe rest of the world about Biodynamics? >>Time to mve on Me thinks> It would be nice to finish this study before >>the new millenium >>The last study posts were Feb 28 Mar 1. >>Cheers >>Tony Robinson >>Rambler Flowers >>NewZealand >> > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 10 01:02:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA05014 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 01:02:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08647; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA08437 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:47:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer - 153.37.31.55 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 21:50:31 -0700 Message-ID: <001201be830d$4e510a60$371f2599@oemcomputer> From: "Dr. Andrew Lorand" To: Subject: Re: Too Much Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 21:47:56 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 590 Greetings Friends, It seems that some find the in biodynamics too slow, not enough, inadequate. I suppose this is one perspective to take. If one is measuring these things in terms of acres in biodynamic practice or in terms of pounds of certified demeter produce sold, perhaps it is true, more could be done. I am not sure, however, that this is the sole (or even most important) purpose of biodynamics. Clearly, using the best possible, most holistic, most spiritual (however one may define this), most regenerative, most productive system of farming and gardening, etc. is desireable. However, this to my mind and experience is not the purpose alone of biodynamics. One misses something very essential about biodynamics (and its many closely related anthroposophical endeavors in other fields, like economics or medicine or architecture) if one perceives it as e.g. the better system, simply available then to replace the older, not so holistic, regerative, holistic, etc. system. (I refer you here too to Dr. Miguel Altieri's - from UC Berkeley - excellent work on why sustainable agriculture is not just input substitution - but rather a whole change in system.) In our case, the whole system change, is not just the agricultural system, but the person. Us. Me. You. The spirit in which we work. The thoughts we carry. The soul mood we hold. The inner capacities we develop. The ability to work directly with the spirits in nature. Biodynamics cannot really be measured (its success or failure) by acres converted or pounds of certified sold. We are in our practice not so interested in tons of compost per acre, but in the etheric forces our especially prepared compost can bring to our fields. And this is not just a function of outwardly (properly) prepared composts or properly stirred field sprays, etc. Nor is it a function of new preps or sequential spraying or cosmic pipes (all of which may have their place). It is, I think, mostly, a function of the inner development of the practitioner. It is the inner capacity of the farmer that allows the elementals to connect with the preps, not just the making of the preps themselves. All kinds of things can be or done outwardly, but if the soul of the farmer is too proud, too arrogant or too careless, too materialistic, or too spiritistic, I suspect the elementals we invite into our space (and thus the kinds of etheric forces) will reflect this too. Progress, I would like to suggest, is a matter of inner development. A matter of finding the spiritual-material balance achievable only through the kind of hard work an inner path of development allows for. All the practices of biodynamics are but doorways into working with the spirits and unseen forces in nature. The inner development of the practitioner must keep pace with such opportunities or they will not serve us well. Progress is about the progression of the soul of the farmer towards spiritual awakening. In this regard, I think some remarkable things have indeed happened and continue to. Each farm and each garden can be a place of deepening spiritual practice. It can, in fact, through its spiritual character have a huge effect on the surrounding region... from general natural effects on the health of crops (not only our own) right down into the karma of the people who live in the area (not just on our farms). However, such effects must come from the concrete (not imagined) collaboration between practitioners and the elemental world. This, to me and many other biodynamic practitioners is much more essentially the work of biodynamics, than just outwardly measurealbe progress. Yes, we need to do everything we can to feed as many people as possible with spiritual foods. But for foods to really be spiritually better, it requires us to do more than new outer methods, but it will require us to the spiritual realms in nature in a concrete and real manner. May I add a caveat: new preps (or ways of distributing them), as if it was equal to the kind of preps and methods Steiner created is not so easy. This is not to say it cannot be done. Let us be much (MUCH) more modest. Let us try out things for a few years (as in fact Steiner did too) before declaring to the world the of these new methods, let alone declaring them . I very much support the idea of experimenting. I do not support declaring experiments the real McCoy, before we have some broad basis for doing so. This was the modesty Steiner also took on himself and asked of the farmers back in 1924. I think it is called for now too. Not because I fear anything, on the contrary, but because modesty, in the spiritual world, is a prerequisite for success. With great affection for this work we all call our own .... Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 10 05:09:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA06721 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 05:09:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA20425; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 04:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA20288 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 04:51:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([203.96.101.122]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990410085619.YHOX5596385.mta1-rme@default> for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:56:19 +1200 Message-ID: <370F1296.738D@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:57:58 +1200 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Spring care of asparagus. Liquid Manures Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 591 Hi Alan you wrote What would you have in mind for a 'liquid manure'? I make and use about 3000 liters of liquid manures per year for about 3/4 acre of cut foliage asparagus plants for the floriste trade. The quickest brews are: Comphrey and nettle + barrelcompost ready to use in about 3 to 4 weeks good source of Potash Cow manure + nettle + BC ready in about 4 to 5weeks good source of Nitrogen. Horse manure + nettle + BC ready in about 4 to 5 weeks also a good source of N . Horse manure is also very good for leafy crops because this is where they eat from. Source: Wolf Storls book Culture and Horticuture a philosophy of gardening. 400 pages of good basic BD knowledge and background history for sustainable gardening. An excellent section on composts and liquid manures. I also make fish and seaweed manures but they are very slow between 4 to 8 months to brew and I have to buy in the raw materials while the other materials are from with in the farm. I mix all three together at the rate of 1/100 liters for each brew plus I add equisetum also at the rate of 1/100L [ thanks to BDNOW }. I spray on a leaf day the week of the full moon in the evening . If the crop is being bothered by a pest I try and spray 2 or 3 evenings in a row [again thanks to BDNOW] I also put my liquid manures through my trickle irrgation at the rate of 1/50 on every leaf or flower day depending on the type of crop. This is slowly correcting the N/K deficeintcy that I have with my stuffed soils . Will be doing another soil test next week to see the improvements Alan Asparagus does not like any root disturbance they become prone to root rots in wet conditions be wary of scatching chooks could cause you some damage. All the the best. Cheers Tony Robinson Rambler Flowers Levin NewZealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 10 08:44:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08501 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 08:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26201; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 08:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26067 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 08:28:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-193.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-193.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.193]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA22120 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 12:32:34 GMT Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 12:32:34 GMT Message-Id: <199904101232.MAA22120@out4.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: soil ammendments Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 592 Hi Hugh, please tell me about the Cosmic Pipe, what its used with and for and what's this about Clay Horn? Is it "pack a horn with clay and bury for 6 months"? thanks, Lynton From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 11 01:02:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA02572 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 01:02:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08833; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 00:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA08756 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 00:47:03 -0400 (EDT) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA25048 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:50:10 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:50:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md17-06.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.134) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma025028; Sat Apr 10 23:49:55 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <19994110528119169@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Off : GMO ORGANIC CONTAMINATION X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 593 Well, if we think the jDMO corporations are upset about this, we're blind. Likely, they see it as a tool to undermine the organic/BD communities. If we can't sell our foods by our standards because it has been GMO contaminated, we go out of business and guess who's left standing? That's part of the unsustainability of "sustainable ag." The economy and capitalism are full of barbs set to bleed us to death. Count the number of family farms that went under in the last 50 years and tell me differently. So what are we going to do about it? Where's the solutions to an anti-Earth economy? We need to be coming up with these as much as coming up with growing techniques. >>> >>> >>>Copyright 1999 Madison Newspapers, Inc. Wisconsin State Journal >>> >>>March 24, 1999, Wednesday, ALL EDITIONS >>> >>>Wind-Blown Genes Cut Into Organic Profits >>> >>>Rick Barrett Agribusiness reporter >>> >>>Bad news could be blowing in the wind for organic farmers and food >>>companies if their crops are contaminated from the airborne pollen of >>>genetically altered crops. In one case, a Hudson food company recently >lost >>>$ 170,000 in sales after its organic corn chips tested positive for >>>genetically engineered corn. The company, Prima Terra, had shipped 80,000 >>>bags of chips to Holland -- only to have them fail a random "gene scan" by >>>government inspectors. Under European regulations, the chips could not be >>>sold as organic even though only one bag in the shipment might have been >>>contaminated. Prima Terra destroyed all of the chips rather than ship them >>>back to the United States. >>> >>>After the incident last December, Prima Terra didn't ship any chips for >two >>>months until it was certain it had found the source of the contamination, >>>said company president Charles Walker. The source was pollen from >>>genetically engineered corn that blew into an organic farmer's corn field >>>in Texas. The corn had a patented gene inserted into it that made it >>>artificially resistant to bugs -- something not allowed in organic >farming. >>>It might have come from a neighboring field or it might have come from >>>miles away, as corn pollen travels in the wind. ''But either way it was a >>>nightmare for us,'' Walker said, adding that it cut deep into company corn >>>chip profits for an entire year. >>> Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD Remember DDT? The agriculture chemical that was banned because it was killing off the bald eagles (and everything else)? Well, we still eat DDT on imported produce and food products. Moreover, GATT allows for over 50% higher residue rates than the US government (as if ANY residue of DDT is "acceptible!"). Food is power... are you in control of yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 11 04:02:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA04016 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 04:02:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA16547; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 03:49:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA16439 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 03:46:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.37] (max11-39.stc.net [208.210.136.39]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA15435 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 03:50:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19994110528119169@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 02:28:59 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Off : GMO ORGANIC CONTAMINATION Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 594 >From: beanman@ix.netcom.com >Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:50:10 -0500 (CDT) >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Re: Off : GMO ORGANIC CONTAMINATION >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org > >Well, if we think the jDMO corporations are upset about this, we're blind. >Likely, they see it as a tool to undermine the organic/BD communities. If >we can't sell our >foods by our standards because it has been GMO contaminated, we go out of >business and guess >who's left standing? >That's part of the unsustainability of "sustainable ag." The economy and >capitalism are full of >barbs set to bleed us to death. Count the number of family farms that went >under in the last 50 >years and tell me differently. > >So what are we going to do about it? Where's the solutions to an >anti-Earth economy? >We need to be coming up with these as much as coming up with growing >techniques. Dear Beanman, You're right, you know. I like your way of thinking. We're far from helpless, of course. First, we need to rid our thinking of the false premise that our own plant genetics stay the same. To the contrary the genetics of the open-pollenated varieties we grow change with every generation. I'm not just referring to what Rudolf Steiner says in Lecture Two, pages 34 through 36. I keep mentioning it and nobody seems to comment much, but Barbara McClintock won the Nobel Prize for genetics in 1987 for proving that corn mutated in every generation (just as Steiner said all plants did in 1924). So let's clear up our thinking and get rid of this mistaken assumption that our plant genetics are fixed. They're not. They only appear that way when we select seeds from those cultivars that seem truest to what we imagine the type is. I can tell you I've saved seed from various "sports" over the years and ended up with new varieties that "stabilized" after a few generations of selection for the new characteristics. You might ask the university breeders what they (used to) do and see how they (used to) come up with new varieties. You may have to see past their assumptions and look at what they've actually done. What we're facing is radical manipulation of genes as compared to the benign breeding practices of the past. Genes for rhizobial nodulation in soybeans are being inserted in corn, and arctic fish genes are being inserted in tomatoes. We saw, for example, the "flavor savor" tomato come on the market with great fanfare. Well, it's pretty easy to save the flavor of a tomato when it doesn't have any to start with. It's way, way fraught with danger. While the GMO breeders are thinking they can patent the monsters they are creating and control the genetics of agriculture, they are way off base. Their patented varieties will mutate, mutate, mutate. And because what they are doing is so radical they may see some pretty radical mutations. But basically they will have to do as has been done, select the seed they breed from so that they breed "true to type" stuff. Otherwise they will get genetic drift and at some point the mistaken assumptions they are marketing will be evident. Meanwhile we will get our seedstocks contaminated with their types, perhaps as much as they will with ours. What do we do about that? I don't like blame as a survival strategy, so I think we should forget sueing them in court unless we have time and money to burn. Sure, hassle them as much as we can afford to politically. Don't waste time or money at it, but fight back when they sue us. And don't forget to propagandize that we can't help but contaminate their crops with our genetics too, so how will the farmers getting their seeds be sure they are getting what they pay for? However, these are mere tactical measures. Strategically two things will have to happen in the organic and biodynamic industry. For one we will have to be a lot more diligent in saving our seed and breeding purer and better seed for ourselves. For example, one of the things genetic manipulators have to do to ensure purity is to grow out their foundation seed stock in protected areas where contamination is virtually impossible. We may simply have to do the same. Secondly we need to be realistic about the standards we set and not put ourselves out of business because we are trying to meet unrealistic standards. One of the things certifiers may have to ensure is that organic farmers inspect their fields and remove any noticeably aberant plants. That may not be 100% protection, but nonetheless it is considerable protection. And there are undoubtedly other things we can do to protect our crops from contamination. Operating our farms in true biodynamic fashion so that they are whole, intact organisms, each unto itself, is sure to help considerably. I realize that gets a little vague as operating a farm as a living organism is a creative rather than a mechanical proceedure, but just because it is qualitative rather than quantitative does not make it any less real. In other words we need standards which ensure we do the BEST we can rather than setting minimum standards and thus encouraging farmers to be violators. And let's not forget, our best protection is to see the naked truth about genetics with the blinders and veils of mistaken assumptions and beliefs removed. Once the human race wakes up to the folly of radical genetic modification we may have our work cut out for us stabilizing the boundaries between species. Even if we become a thousand or a hundred thousand times more effective at bringing the influences of the universe to bear on plants from one or another cosmic direction we may have a couple hundred years worth of work cleaning up the damage being done now with genetic modification. It is time to start honing our skills now so we aren't caught flat-footed and wringing our hands. I might add that history is cyclical. It repeats itself, though always with variations. Radical genetic modification occurred during Atlantis with disasterous results, not only with plants but with animals and humans. GMOs also go back to even earlier ages and even earlier disasters. And don't make the mistake of imagining immortal human souls arose a few million years ago on planet Earth. We've been around a lot longer than that evolving on one planet after another. As I've mentioned a time or two before, I remember many, many past lives. At the time Atlantis was nearing its demise I was one of those who ridiculed Noah. Filled as I was with my self-importance I thought what Noah was talking about couldn't happen to me. Imagine my shock, embarassment and unmitigated shame. I can say that sitting on our hands with an elitist attitude of "they'll learn biodynamics when they are ready" is a good way to ensure this planet goes down the tubes and we have to go looking for another. We must make such wisdom and insight as we have accessible. We must shine our light and ring our bell. The forces of limitation and death have won on more than one planet before this. It is the Creator's mercy that those lessons we fail to learn we get to repeat. We're only in first grade here and a great many of us, myself included, are multiple repeats. The school year is almost over and final exams are coming up. Maybe you think there's no urgency. What's your preference? Regards, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 11 11:21:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA06236 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 11:21:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02988; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 11:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02930 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 11:07:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id hMGRa22984 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 11:10:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 11:10:15 EDT Subject: Re: Too Much To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 595 In a message dated 99-04-10 00:53:59 EDT, you write: << Each farm and each garden can be a place of deepening spiritual practice. It can, in fact, through its spiritual character have a huge effect on the surrounding region.. >> Dear Friends, For years I struggled with a statement once overheard that BD is actually "holding the earth back..." The following quote is from Rudolf Steiner's "Etherization of the Blood (1911):" If we look into early post-Atlantean times, we find that men built their dwelling-places by methods very different from those used in modern life. In those days they made use of all kinds of growing things. Even when building palaces they summoned nature to their aid by utilising plants interlaced with branches of trees and so on, whereas today men must build with broken fragments. All the culture of the external world is contrived with the aid of products of fragmentation. And in the course of the coming years you will realise even more clearly how much in our civilised life is the outcome of destruction. Light itself is being distroyed in this post-Atlantean age of the Earth's existence, which until the time of Atlantis was a progressive process. Since then it has been a process of decay. What is light? Light decays and the decaying light is electricity. What we know as electricity is light that is being destroyed in matter. And the chemical force that undergoes a transformation in the process of Earth evolution is magnetism. Yet a third force will become active and if electicity seems to work wonders today, this third force will affect civilisation in a still more miraculous way. The more of this force we employ, the faster will the Earth tend to become a corpse and its spiritual part prepare for the Jupiter embodiment. Forces have to be applied for the purpose of destruction, in order that man may become free of the Earth and that the Earth's body may fall away. As long as the Earth was involved in progressive evolution, no such destruction took place, for the great achievements of electricity can only serve a decaying Earth. Strange as this sounds, it must gradually become known. By understanding the process of evolution we shall learn to assess our culture at its true value. We shall also learn that it is necessary for the Earth to be destroyed, for otherwise the spiritual could not become free. We shall also learn to value what is positive, namely the penetration of spiritual forces into our existance on Earth." So, it seems that while chemical manipulations change substance to accelerate the fall into fragments, biodynamic's role is to spiritualize substance, on the one hand replicating an earlier time that was given by the Gods ("holding back") on the other learning how to create true sustenance and an etheric environment out of inner development. Also Andrew's point of related "fields" including medicine and education connotes community or collaboration. What do you think about this? Christine (in Ireland) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 11 13:18:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA07647 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 13:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12246; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 13:06:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.hurontel.on.ca (mail.hurontel.on.ca [205.206.182.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11907 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 13:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MERLINFR (clifford-195.wcl.on.ca [216.46.132.195]) by mail.hurontel.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA02637 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 13:18:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 13:18:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904111718.NAA02637@mail.hurontel.on.ca> X-Sender: merlinvf@mail.wcl.on.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Joe Von Frankenberg Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 596 To: Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:21:09 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN UNSUBSCRIBE BD NOW! Joe von Frankenberg rr1 Elmwood N0G 1S0 ONTARIO CN From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 11 17:24:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA10681 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:24:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA10315; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:12:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10259 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:11:56 -0400 (EDT) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA03060 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:14:59 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:14:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md15-21.ix.netcom.com(199.182.66.149) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma003042; Sun Apr 11 16:14:51 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <19994111717616334@ix.netcom.com> Subject: If Earth is to be destroyed anyway, then what? X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 597 >Dear Friends, >For years I struggled with a statement once overheard that BD is actually >"holding the earth back..." >The following quote is from Rudolf Steiner's "Etherization of the Blood >(1911):" > We shall >also learn that it is necessary for the Earth to be destroyed, for otherwise >the spiritual could not become free. We shall also learn to value what is >positive, namely the penetration of spiritual forces into our existance on >Earth." > >Christine (in Ireland) So, is this suggesting that "saving Earth" is pointless, as its destruction is part of the "plan," and that spiritual development of the self is the only objective? Is this where the notion of "heaven" and "hell" comes in?... those who have done their spiritual work go forward in the evolution process (heaven) and those that did nothing stay behind on a dying planet (hell)? In this case, all the hooting and hollering to save the rainforests, the top soil, the manatees etc. seems wasted effort. That, or the hooting and hollering is part of the spiritual evolution. So, does one make efforts to "stop Monsanto" as part of the evolution, or let it be and focus the spirit/self elsewhere because Earth's to die anyway and there are better efforts to be made at this time? Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD Remember DDT? The agriculture chemical that was banned because it was killing off the bald eagles (and everything else)? Well, we still eat DDT on imported produce and food products. Moreover, GATT allows for over 50% higher residue rates than the US government (as if ANY residue of DDT is "acceptible!"). Food is power... are you in control of yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 11 21:06:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA12960 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04023; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03867 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:49:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts2-14.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.199.46]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with SMTP id RAA08752 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001301be847d$deee7320$2ec76cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <19994111717616334@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: If Earth is to be destroyed anyway, then what? Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:44:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 598 Terrance McKenna presents in his talks an analogy that might be helpful here. He remarks that, if an alien were to come across a human woman giving birth it would seem a major catastrophe in the making--blood, writhing, tearing, screams, pain and suffering. But these manifestations are in the service of new life. For the child aborning, a different catastrophe--loss of the sustaining, cushioning fluid; unwonted movement through a tunnel under unbearable pressure, then dropping into gravity for the first time; searing light to the eyes, sudden influx of oxygen in the lungs, and the cold, cold atmosphere... Here in this analogy is another way to look at Earth changes, Y2K disruptions, societal upheavals and all the rest of the fearful happenings we anticipate with the coming of a new millenium, a speed bump on the road to the Mayan enddate, Winter Solstice 2012--a birthing, a transformation, a move into a new way of being for (wo)mankind and the Planet. Questions in response to Beanman's "...then what?..." *Can we transform our egos in the service of rebirth and move away from the historical/cultural perspective that put us in our present situation; * Can we take our true power back, developing heart-mind so we can accept with grace and humility the gifts Nature and the Spirit World offer us; * Can we finally engage in appropriate behavior moving toward a new reality, more light, a new dimension...setting aside [Hugh Lovel's list] illusions, petty jealousies and personal ambitions on the way to becoming fully human? Barbara and Woody Aurora Farm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, April 11, 1999 2:14 PM Subject: If Earth is to be destroyed anyway, then what? > >Dear Friends, > >For years I struggled with a statement once overheard that BD is actually > >"holding the earth back..." > >The following quote is from Rudolf Steiner's "Etherization of the Blood > >(1911):" > > > We shall > >also learn that it is necessary for the Earth to be destroyed, for otherwise > >the spiritual could not become free. We shall also learn to value what is > >positive, namely the penetration of spiritual forces into our existance on > >Earth." > > > >Christine (in Ireland) > > So, is this suggesting that "saving Earth" is pointless, as its destruction is part of the > "plan," and that spiritual development of the self is the only objective? > > Is this where the notion of "heaven" and "hell" comes in?... those who have done their spiritual > work go forward in the evolution process (heaven) and those that did nothing stay behind on a > dying planet (hell)? > > In this case, all the hooting and hollering to save the rainforests, the top soil, the manatees > etc. seems wasted effort. That, or the hooting and hollering is part of the spiritual evolution. > So, does one make efforts to "stop Monsanto" as part of the evolution, or let it be and focus > the spirit/self elsewhere because Earth's to die anyway and there are better efforts to be made > at this time? > > > Happy Gardening, > > John Edward Verin > Senior Apprentice > Ecosystem Farm > Accokeek, MD > > Remember DDT? The agriculture chemical that was banned because it was killing off the bald eagles (and everything else)? > Well, we still eat DDT on imported produce and food products. Moreover, GATT allows for over 50% higher residue rates than the US government (as if ANY residue of DDT is "acceptible!"). > > Food is power... are you in control of yours? > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 11 22:19:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA13908 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 22:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12544; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 22:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12070 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 22:02:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.37] (max1-12.stc.net [208.210.131.12]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA27016 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 22:05:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19994111717616334@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:44:32 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: If Earth is to be destroyed anyway, then what? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 599 Dears, When there is a drowning child, do the on-lookers all say, "Tsk, tsk. Karma." and simply watch the child drown? Well, some certainly do. But on occasion there is an on--looker that whips off his (or her) clothes and dives in to the rescue. When there is an old man dying of lung cancer after a lifetime of smoking, do his neighbors all say, "Tsk, tsk. Serves him right for smoking and blowing all his side-stream smoke in our faces. He should have known better." Well, some certainly do. But on occasion there is a neighbor who visits and plays music, reads poetry and in general makes his last weeks, days and hours bright. Likewise when there is an auto accident it is a good thing there are folks on stand-by to rush broken and bleeding bodies to emergency rooms, for some are too young to die. This Earth is too young to die just yet. Oh, I agree it's inevitable that the Earth reach dissolution precisely for the reason cited below. But just because the Earth must someday die is no reason for it to die prematurely any more than we shoulod let the child drown or the commuter accident victim bleed to death. And even in the final extremity there is every reason to brighten the last days. Regards, Hugh Lovel John Edward Verin sends: >>Dear Friends, >>For years I struggled with a statement once overheard that BD is actually >>"holding the earth back..." >>The following quote is from Rudolf Steiner's "Etherization of the Blood >>(1911):" >> >We shall >>also learn that it is necessary for the Earth to be destroyed, for otherwise >>the spiritual could not become free. We shall also learn to value what is >>positive, namely the penetration of spiritual forces into our existance on >>Earth." >> >>Christine (in Ireland) > >So, is this suggesting that "saving Earth" is pointless, as its >destruction is part of the >"plan," and that spiritual development of the self is the only objective? > >Is this where the notion of "heaven" and "hell" comes in?... those who >have done their spiritual >work go forward in the evolution process (heaven) and those that did >nothing stay behind on a >dying planet (hell)? > >In this case, all the hooting and hollering to save the rainforests, the >top soil, the manatees >etc. seems wasted effort. That, or the hooting and hollering is part of >the spiritual evolution. >So, does one make efforts to "stop Monsanto" as part of the evolution, or >let it be and focus >the spirit/self elsewhere because Earth's to die anyway and there are >better efforts to be made >at this time? > > >Happy Gardening, > >John Edward Verin >Senior Apprentice >Ecosystem Farm >Accokeek, MD > >Remember DDT? The agriculture chemical that was banned because it was >killing off the bald eagles (and everything else)? >Well, we still eat DDT on imported produce and food products. Moreover, >GATT allows for over 50% higher residue rates than the US government (as >if ANY residue of DDT is "acceptible!"). > >Food is power... are you in control of yours? Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 12 00:45:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA15757 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:45:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA27417; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:25:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27350 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:24:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer - 153.37.17.108 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:27:49 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01be849c$6f510d60$6c112599@oemcomputer> From: "Dr. Andrew Lorand" To: Subject: Re: If Earth is to be destroyed anyway, then what? Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:25:01 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 600 Beautifully said, Hugh. I couldnt agree more. Thank you. Andrew >Dears, > >When there is a drowning child, do the on-lookers all say, "Tsk, tsk. >Karma." and simply watch the child drown? Well, some certainly do. But on >occasion there is an on--looker that whips off his (or her) clothes and >dives in to the rescue. > >When there is an old man dying of lung cancer after a lifetime of smoking, >do his neighbors all say, "Tsk, tsk. Serves him right for smoking and >blowing all his side-stream smoke in our faces. He should have known >better." Well, some certainly do. But on occasion there is a neighbor who >visits and plays music, reads poetry and in general makes his last weeks, >days and hours bright. > >Likewise when there is an auto accident it is a good thing there are folks >on stand-by to rush broken and bleeding bodies to emergency rooms, for some >are too young to die. > >This Earth is too young to die just yet. Oh, I agree it's inevitable that >the Earth reach dissolution precisely for the reason cited below. But just >because the Earth must someday die is no reason for it to die prematurely >any more than we shoulod let the child drown or the commuter accident >victim bleed to death. And even in the final extremity there is every >reason to brighten the last days. > >Regards, >Hugh Lovel > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 12 01:52:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA16360 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:52:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA02266; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:25:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA02092 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:23:10 -0400 (EDT) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id hLGWa27509 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:25:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:25:59 EDT Subject: Re:BD holding back the earth To: BDnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 601 Christine wrote: Dear Friends, For years I struggled with a statement once overheard that BD is actually "holding the earth back..." The following quote is from Rudolf Steiner's "Etherization of the Blood (1911):" If we look into early post-Atlantean times, we find that men built their dwelling-places by methods very different from those used in modern life. In those days they made use of all kinds of growing things. Even when building palaces they summoned nature to their aid by utilising plants interlaced with branches of trees and so on, whereas today men must build with broken fragments. All the culture of the external world is contrived with the aid of products of fragmentation. And in the course of the coming years you will realise even more clearly how much in our civilised life is the outcome of destruction. Light itself is being distroyed in this post-Atlantean age of the Earth's existence, which until the time of Atlantis was a progressive process. Since then it has been a process of decay. What is light? Light decays and the decaying light is electricity. What we know as electricity is light that is being destroyed in matter. And the chemical force that undergoes a transformation in the process of Earth evolution is magnetism. Yet a third force will become active and if electicity seems to work wonders today, this third force will affect civilisation in a still more miraculous way. The more of this force we employ, the faster will the Earth tend to become a corpse and its spiritual part prepare for the Jupiter embodiment. Forces have to be applied for the purpose of destruction, in order that man may become free of the Earth and that the Earth's body may fall away. As long as the Earth was involved in progressive evolution, no such destruction took place, for the great achievements of electricity can only serve a decaying Earth. Strange as this sounds, it must gradually become known. By understanding the process of evolution we shall learn to assess our culture at its true value. We shall also learn that it is necessary for the Earth to be destroyed, for otherwise the spiritual could not become free. We shall also learn to value what is positive, namely the penetration of spiritual forces into our existance on Earth." So, it seems that while chemical manipulations change substance to accelerate the fall into fragments, biodynamic's role is to spiritualize substance, on the one hand replicating an earlier time that was given by the Gods ("holding back") on the other learning how to create true sustenance and an etheric environment out of inner development. Also Andrew's point of related "fields" including medicine and education connotes community or collaboration. What do you think about this? Christine (in Ireland) Christine, I'm curious about your coupling of ideas. One being what you overheard and the other a passage taken from a Steiner book. Are both ideas in context with each other? Regards, Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 12 05:53:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA17811 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 05:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA14380; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 05:32:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA14228 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 05:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (whan-019.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.119]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16075 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:31:02 +1200 Message-ID: <000d01be84c5$cbe72720$77f631ca@oemcomputer> From: "g&y bodle" To: "BD List" Subject: Help with Chromotography needed Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:21:04 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE852A.5F3E6D80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 602 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE852A.5F3E6D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a request that I sent to a chap who has not got back to me. Is = there anyone on the list who can answer these questions on chromotography proceedure.? . We took notes from Racheal Pomery at Taruna last year but there are a = few gaps. =20 How do you prepare the filter paper? Do you soak it in the AgNO3 solution and dry it? Must this part be done = in the dark? =20 For testing 500 put 2g in 75ml 1% NaOH for 2 hrs? -is that right? =20 What about other preps? =20 What about soil? The Koliskos show results but dont describe method (As = far as I can make out.) =20 Do you cover with a "black cloth" (Not my notes) while the solution is = running? I thought it had been done in a room that was shadeds, no = direct sunlight, but not dark. =20 We want to develop a bit of work with 500, Cow Pat Pit, and maybe other = preps and soils. But also want to look at what we might be able to = discover in working with soils, and changes after various preparation = treatments. =20 Hope you might be able to help, Gareth Bodle Whangarei NZ. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE852A.5F3E6D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is a request that I sent to a = chap who has=20 not got back to me. Is there anyone on the list who can answer these=20 questions
on chromotography = proceedure.?
 
 
 
. We took notes from Racheal Pomery = at Taruna=20 last year but there are a few gaps.
 
How do you prepare the filter=20 paper?
Do you soak it in the AgNO3 solution = and dry it?=20 Must this part be done in the dark?
 
For testing 500 put 2g in 75ml 1% = NaOH for 2=20 hrs? -is that right?
 
What about other preps?
 
What about soil? The Koliskos show = results but=20 dont describe method (As far as I can make out.)
 
Do you cover with a "black = cloth" (Not=20 my notes) while the solution is running? I thought it had been done in a = room=20 that was shadeds, no direct sunlight, but not dark.
 
We want to develop a bit of work = with 500, Cow=20 Pat Pit, and maybe other preps and soils. But also want to look at what = we might=20 be able to discover in working with soils, and changes after various = preparation=20 treatments.
 
Hope you might be able to = help,
Gareth Bodle
Whangarei = NZ.
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE852A.5F3E6D80-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 12 08:52:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA19517 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:52:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24118; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.243]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23846 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-122.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-122.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.122]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA92590 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:39:29 GMT Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:39:29 GMT Message-Id: <199904121239.MAA92590@out5.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 603 I am also interested in this subject, and would appreciate the answers to Gareth's questions. Also, is there a procedure to test plants? ie as an extention to a Brix measurement? Thanks, Lynton Blair At 09:21 PM 4/12/99 +1200, you wrote: >This is a request that I sent to a chap who has not got back to me. Is there anyone on the list who can answer these questions >on chromotography proceedure.? > > > >. We took notes from Racheal Pomery at Taruna last year but there are a few gaps. > >How do you prepare the filter paper? >Do you soak it in the AgNO3 solution and dry it? Must this part be done in the dark? > >For testing 500 put 2g in 75ml 1% NaOH for 2 hrs? -is that right? > >What about other preps? > >What about soil? The Koliskos show results but dont describe method (As far as I can make out.) > >Do you cover with a "black cloth" (Not my notes) while the solution is running? I thought it had been done in a room that was shadeds, no direct sunlight, but not dark. > >We want to develop a bit of work with 500, Cow Pat Pit, and maybe other preps and soils. But also want to look at what we might be able to discover in working with soils, and changes after various preparation treatments. > >Hope you might be able to help, >Gareth Bodle >Whangarei NZ. > > > > > > > > >
This is a request that I sent to a chap who has >not got back to me. Is there anyone on the list who can answer these >questions
>
on chromotography proceedure.?
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
. We took notes from Racheal Pomery at Taruna >last year but there are a few gaps.
>
 
>
How do you prepare the filter >paper?
>
Do you soak it in the AgNO3 solution and dry it? >Must this part be done in the dark?
>
 
>
For testing 500 put 2g in 75ml 1% NaOH for 2 >hrs? -is that right?
>
 
>
What about other preps?
>
 
>
What about soil? The Koliskos show results but >dont describe method (As far as I can make out.)
>
 
>
Do you cover with a "black cloth" (Not >my notes) while the solution is running? I thought it had been done in a room >that was shadeds, no direct sunlight, but not dark.
>
 
>
We want to develop a bit of work with 500, Cow >Pat Pit, and maybe other preps and soils. But also want to look at what we might >be able to discover in working with soils, and changes after various preparation >treatments.
>
 
>
Hope you might be able to help,
>
Gareth Bodle
>
Whangarei NZ.
> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 12 10:15:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20650 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:15:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04402; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:02:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mashie.force9.net (mashie.force9.net [195.166.128.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04048 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:00:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904121400.KAA04048@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 21962 invoked from network); 12 Apr 1999 14:05:53 -0000 Received: from coors.free-online.net (212.56.108.80) by mashie.force9.net with SMTP; 12 Apr 1999 14:05:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 2522 invoked from network); 12 Apr 1999 14:05:13 -0000 Received: from 199.hiper05.dialin.free-online.net (HELO ?212.56.118.199?) (212.56.118.199) by coors.free-online.net with SMTP; 12 Apr 1999 14:05:13 -0000 Subject: Re: If Earth is to be destroyed anyway, then what? Date: Mon, 12 Apr 99 15:05:52 +0100 x-sender: elementalsols@mail.free-online.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Mark Moodie To: "BD list Postings" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 604 beanman@ix.netcom.com wrote;- >So, is this suggesting that "saving Earth" is pointless, as its >destruction is part of the "plan," and that spiritual development of the self is the only objective? Close, but no cigar. In this picture the earth will die but the point is not to let it die early before what has to be done is done. That is one of BD's role and saving the earth is still vital. > >Is this where the notion of "heaven" and "hell" comes in?... those who have done their spiritual > work go forward in the evolution process (heaven) and those that did nothing stay behind on a >dying planet (hell)? > Still no cigar. Catholic hell is kamaloca - a personal stage of learning to lose the desires of the body when the body has gone. This is a process of learning not to be attached to the earth and to our bodies as both will pass. "Is it possible to learn how to care and yet no to care, for love has two faces, hope and despair..." >In this case, all the hooting and hollering to save the rainforests, the top soil, the manatees >etc. seems wasted effort. That, or the hooting and hollering is part of the spiritual evolution. >So, does one make efforts to "stop Monsanto" as part of the evolution, or let it be and focus >the spirit/self elsewhere because Earth's to die anyway and there are better efforts to be made >at this time? > See above. > >Happy Gardening, > >John Edward Verin Good questions - have a cigar. Mark Moodie mark.es@aecb.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 12 10:15:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20678 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:15:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04458; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:02:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04265 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.17]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:08:37 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:05:33 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: April 04, 1999 - April 10, 1999 Message-ID: <7E5B3F665C2CC13A85256751004D6379.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id KAA04266 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 605 Calendar of the Soul [April 04, 1999 - April 10, 1999] Easter (April 7-13) SPRING When out of world-wide spaces The sun speaks to the human mind, And gladness from the depths of soul Becomes, in seeing, one with light, Then rising from the sheath of self, Thoughts soar to distances of space And dimly bind The human being to the spirit's life. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Wenn aus den Weltenweiten Die Sonne spricht zum Menschensinn Und Freude aus den Seelentiefen Dem Licht sich eint im Schauen, Dann ziehen aus der Selbstheit Hülle Gedanken in die Raumesfernen Und binden dumpf Des Menschen Wesen an des Geistes Sein. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+01 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 12 10:18:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20772 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04857; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:05:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04491 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:02:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] ([208.210.143.59]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA07567 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000d01be84c5$cbe72720$77f631ca@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:45:16 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 606 > This is a request that I sent to a chap who has not got back to me. >Is there anyone on the list who can answer these questions on >chromotography proceedure.? . We took notes from Racheal Pomery at >Taruna last year but there are a few gaps. How do you prepare the >filter paper? Do you soak it in the AgNO3 solution and dry it? Must this >part be done in the dark? For testing 500 put 2g in 75ml 1% NaOH for 2 >hrs? -is that right? What about other preps? What about soil? The >Koliskos show results but dont describe method (As far as I can make >out.) Do you cover with a "black cloth" (Not my notes) while the >solution is running? I thought it had been done in a room that was >shadeds, no direct sunlight, but not dark. We want to develop a bit of >work with 500, Cow Pat Pit, and maybe other preps and soils. But also >want to look at what we might be able to discover in working with soils, >and changes after various preparation treatments. Hope you might be >able to help, Gareth Bodle Whangarei NZ. Dear Gareth, It's been a while, but I'll try to answer your questions. 1) Filter paper is soaked in silver nitrate solution and dried in a room with no direct sunlight and not too bright a light in general. Incidentally the filter paper is punched in the middle for a wick. 2) For soils it's 1% sodium hydroxide for 2 hours. For plant tissue its 0.1% sodium hydroxide. I am not sure for preps, and it seems to me that 0.1% sodium hydroxide may work. You could try it and see. 3) Just do everything in subdued light, no direct sunlight. Direct sunlight is used to develop the chromatogram. Incidentally, be careful about getting your fingerprints on the chromo. You can mar your chromos if you're careless. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 12 11:40:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22546 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17891; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:27:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from halifax.chebucto.ns.ca (chebucto.ns.Ca [192.75.95.75]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17643 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:25:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av204@localhost by halifax.chebucto.ns.ca id <33534-663>; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:29:18 -0300 Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:29:18 -0300 (ADT) Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Joan Macdonald To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: NYC Community Gardens In-Reply-To: <7E5B3F665C2CC13A85256751004D6379.0000000000000000@webcity> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: av204@chebucto.ns.ca X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 607 Jane... Heard on the news early this morning of the 'Garden Party" yesterday Sunday,..in support for the community gardens. Some people arrested. Comment from someone mentioning the change of atmosphere, when walking down a city block and then coming upon the beauty of a garden. Then a comment from the Mayor, stating that it was time for the communities to give back the land for housing construction and building development. What more can I say.... Joan Halifax, Nova Scotia From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 12 12:23:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA23228 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24902; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:11:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24398 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904121608.MAA24398@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 20061 invoked from network); 12 Apr 1999 16:11:52 -0000 Received: from i48-05-02.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO DAVE) (216.26.3.2) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 12 Apr 1999 16:11:52 -0000 X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: OFF: On excrement Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 608 BDers may be interested in the following article. One point I would add -- according to Steiner, human excrement has been drained of astral forces after running through the human organism. It should not be used to fertilize food crops becasue it wont be able to add heathful forces. It should work well for flower crops becasue regeneration of the astral forces through flowering is exactly what it needs to do. This guideline applies to the suggestion for more utilization of compost toilets. =======================Electronic Edition======================== . . . RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY #645 . . ---April 8, 1999--- . . HEADLINES: . . EXCREMENT HAPPENS -- PART 2 . . ========== . . Environmental Research Foundation . . P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403 . . Fax (410) 263-8944; E-mail: erf@rachel.org . . ========== . . All back issues are available by E-mail: send E-mail to . . info@rachel.org with the single word HELP in the message. . . Back issues are also available from http://www.rachel.org. . . To start your own free subscription, send E-mail to . . listserv@rachel.org with the words . . SUBSCRIBE RACHEL-WEEKLY YOUR NAME in the message. . ================================================================= EXCREMENT HAPPENS -- PART 2 Continuing from last week, we are retelling the history of the management of human excrement as originally narrated by Abby A. Rockefeller.[1] Where we have added new facts to Ms. Rockefeller's original history, they appear inside square brackets. * * * To recap where we are: Cities began to provide running water into homes in the early 19th century. Water piped into homes had to be piped out again, often into open sewer ditches running in the streets. Outbreaks of cholera followed. A debate ensued: should sewage be transported back to farms, where the nutrients had originated, or should it be disposed of by dumping it into bodies of water? Although many cities for a time transported sewage to farms, by 1920 most sewage was being piped directly into bodies of water. This was a crucial choice. Once the network of sewer pipes began to grow, industry saw these public pipes as a cheap place to dump industrial wastes. As a result, corporations began to dump all manner of toxicants into the nutrient-rich sewage stream. This was another crucial choice. Once they were mixed together, nutrients and industrial poisons could not be separated at any reasonable price. Therefore the whole mess became a toxic waste disposal problem and excrement lost its value as a fertilizer. Dumping it into water bodies accelerated. By the 1950s, most of the nation's waterways were badly contaminated with a combination of nutrients and toxicants. This gave rise to a demand for treatment of waste prior to disposal. Pipes that used to carry toxic sewage into streams and oceans now began to carry it into centralized "wastewater treatment plants" or "publicly owned treatment works" (POTWs). Wastewater treatment plants remove the solids and some of the chemicals, creating a black, mud-like "sludge" in the process. It's a trade-off: improved wastewater treatment means cleaner discharge water but it also means more sludge and worse sludge (more toxic). Now a new, and truly intractable, problem appears: what to do with mountains of toxic sludge? Communities with access to the ocean began dumping sludge there. New York dumped its sewage sludge 12 miles offshore; when that place developed obvious contamination problems, the dumping was moved to a spot 106 miles offshore, where, to no one's surprise, contamination soon developed. The use of water to carry sewage, and the use of centralized wastewater treatment plants, had great political appeal for several reasons. Most political authorities tend to favor centralized solutions because they basically don't trust people to handle their own problems. Secondly, as we have noted, industry needed a cheap place to dispose of its wastes. [In 1997, according to the Congressional Research Service, industry "dumped 240 million pounds of wastes with hazardous components" into municipal sewers.[2]] Third, and perhaps most important, laying sewer pipes and building centralized sewage treatment plants is extremely costly and engineering firms receive 20% of the initial cost. [Between 1970 and 1993, the federal government appropriated $69.5 billion for sewage construction projects. The Congressional Research Service recently estimated that between now and the year 2016 (17 years), the federal government will spend another $126 billion on sewage projects.[2] These are serious amounts of money.] Only the Federal Highway Administration [and the military] spend more public money on construction. [If even a small fraction of this sewer money is kicked back at election time by consultants, lawyers, investment bankers and engineering firms, it can go a long way toward keeping the present crop of politicians in office.] In the 1970s, many environmentalists and public health officials favored centralized sewage treatment because it seemed to offer an improvement over dumping raw wastes into waterways. The Clean Water Act of 1977 was essentially a sewering act. Everyone was then locked into centralized wastewater treatment systems. In 1988, Congress discovered that sludge dumping in the oceans was harming marine life, and the practice was banned as of 1992. This created a massive problem for American cities: [11.6 billion pounds of sludge (that's the dry weight, not counting the water it contains[3]) has to go somewhere, year after year.] At that moment, EPA decided that the U.S. now needs to mimic 100 generations of successful farmers in Asia, returning human excrement to farmland. However, EPA has overlooked two important differences between modern sewage sludge and traditional "night soil" (unadulterated human waste): 1) Most of the nitrogen in human waste is in the urine and is water-soluble, so it is not captured in the sludge. Therefore, if sludge is going to substitute for commercial fertilizer, you have to use a lot of it to get enough nitrogen. And (2) when you add a lot of sludge to soil, you are also adding a lot of toxic metals and a rich (though very poorly understood) mixture of organic chemicals and, very likely, radioactive wastes as well. EPA has addressed the toxic metals by telling farmers to add lime to their soil along with the sewage sludge, to prevent the soil from becoming acidic. If soil turns acidic, then toxic metals begin to move around, either leaching down into groundwater or moving upward into the crops (which, by definition, are part of some food chain). If soils are alkaline (the opposite of acidic), the metals move more slowly. [What EPA has overlooked is the fact that ordinary rain is slightly acidic, not counting the excess acidity provided by "acid rain." Normal rain drops falling through the atmosphere dissolve small amount of carbon dioxide, forming carbonic acid. Normal rain has a pH of 5.6 whereas 7 is neutral. Therefore, if soils are not kept alkaline by the regular addition of lime, sooner or later normal rain will begin to leach excess metals out of many soils. The only way to prevent this is to keep the excess metals out of soils in the first place.] In sum, plowing sewage sludge into soils is essentially guaranteed to harm many of those soils as time passes. [See REHW #561.] [As we know from the ancients who poisoned their soils with irrigation salts, a nation that poisons its farmland is a nation that doesn't have a long-term future.] A series of bad decisions made during this century has brought us to an impasse: sewage sludge is unmanageable because you can't know from day to day what is going to be in it, and so you cannot monitor its contents.[4] (Even if you could manage the scientific problems inherent in monitoring an unknown mixture of unknown substances, as a practical matter there isn't any government agency with enough staff to monitor the nation's sludge.) Therefore -- as heroic a task as this may seem -- it is time to re-think centralized water-carriage sewage treatment systems. The present systems were not designed to produce useable products and therefore the DESIGN of present systems is the root of the problem. Three policy goals are needed: (1) Sewer avoidance (stay off or get off water-carriage, centralized sewer systems). (2) Promote low-cost, on-site resource recycling technologies, such as composting toilets, that avoid polluting water and preclude wasting resources. (3) Price water right so that the market works to keep it clean, not contaminate it with excreta.[4] [For individual households, real solutions are already available: zero discharge household waste systems. An excellent new book by David del Porto and Carol Steinfeld, THE COMPOSTING TOILET SYSTEM, will dispel any fears you may have that composting toilets are a step backward.[5] With microflush toilets and vacuum-flush toilets now readily available, you can have the bathroom of your dreams, yet compost your household wastes into an odor-free product that is entirely satisfactory as agricultural fertilizer. These days, there are companies that will manage the system for you, including removing the compost. Your household waste system can be installed, maintained, and managed by professionals, just like your electrical and heating systems. But what about apartment buildings and office buildings in cities? Although we know of no one who has applied it, the technology certainly exists for manufacturing building-scale waste systems based on anaerobic digesters, which would produce methane gas and fertilizer. As Abby A. Rockefeller said recently in an interview, "Surely, human ingenuity can do this." Such systems would be cheaper than current sewage systems because they wouldn't require miles of underground pipes to connect to a centralized sewage treatment plant, and they would conserve hundreds of billions of gallons of water each year. [Every time we flush the toilet, 3.3 gallons of drinking water are degraded. At 5.2 flushes per day (average), each of us presently degrades 6260 gallons of drinking water each year to flush away our 1300 pounds of excrement -- 1.6 trillion gallons of water per year in the U.S.] Naturally, we would need to keep toxicants out of these composting systems, but that has always been true (even though we have ignored this fact) and we might as well face up to it now. Toxic household products will have to be phased out as part of any plan for sustainable living. Toxic industrial wastes should be managed by the industries that make them, not dumped into the environment that sustains all life. Unusable wastes are a sure sign of inefficiency. Lastly, what to do with today's mountains of toxic sludge? Obviously they must be handled as hazardous wastes because that's what they are. [Probably above-ground storage in concrete buildings is the only satisfactory solution at the present time. (See REHW #260.)] [You say we can't do any of this because we've been doing it another way for 100 years? Ask yourself, what kind of people would dump their excreta into their drinking water in the first place? And what kind of people, faced with workable, cheaper, more environmentally sound alternatives would continue to insist that dumping their excreta into their drinking water is the only way to live?] ========== [1] Abby A. Rockefeller, "Civilization and Sludge: Notes on the History of the Management of Human Excreta," CURRENT WORLD LEADERS Vol. 39, No. 6 (December 1996), pgs. 99-113. Ms. Rockefeller is president of the ReSource Institute for Low Entropy Systems, 179 Boylston St., Boston, MA 02130; telephone (617) 524-7258. [2] Claudia Copeland, WASTEWATER TREATMENT: OVERVIEW AND BACKGROUND [98-323 ENR] (Washington, D.C.: Congressional Research Service, January 20, 1999). Available at: http://- www.cnie.org/nle/h2o-29.html . [3] Gary D. Krauss and Albert L. Page, "Wastewater, Sludge and Food Crops," BIOCYCLE (February 1997), pgs. 74-82. Krauss was staff director for the National Research Council study, USE OF RECLAIMED WATER AND SLUDGE IN FOOD CROP PRODUCTION (Washington, D.C.: National Academy Press, 1996). [4] Robert Goodland and Abby Rockefeller, "What is Environmental Sustainability in Sanitation?" IETC'S INSIGHT [newsletter of the United Nations Environment Programme, International Environmental Technology Centre] Summer, 1996), pgs. 5-8. The International Environmental Technology Centre can be reached at: UNEP-IETC, 2-1110 Ryokuchikoen, Tsurumi-ku, Osaka 538, Japan. Telephone: (81-6) 915-4580; fax: (81-6) 915-0304; E-mail: cstrohma@unep.or.jp; URL: http://www.unep.or.jp/. See also Abby A. Rockefeller, "Sewage Treatment Plants vs. the Environment," an unpublished paper dated September, 1997. And: Abby A. Rockefeller, "Sludge is Sludge; The Illusion of Safety," an unpublished paper dated June 26, 1996. Ms. Rockefeller is president of the ReSource Institute for Low Entropy Systems, 179 Boylston St., Boston, MA 02130; telephone (617) 524-7258. [5] David Del Porto and Carol Steinfeld, THE COMPOSTING TOILET SYSTEM BOOK (Concord, Mass.: Center for Ecological Pollution Prevention, 1999). ISBN 0-9666783-0-3. See http://www.ecological-engineering.com/ctbook.html; $29.95 plus $3.30 shipping ($12 overseas shipping) from: Center for Ecological Pollution Prevention, 50 Beharrell St., P.O. Box 1330, Concord, Mass. USA 01742. Phone (978) 369-9440. Fax: (978) 368-2484. E-mail: ecop2@hotmail.com. See also: Carol Steinfeld, "Composting Toilets Come to the Rescue in Massachusetts," BIOCYCLE (April 1996), pgs. unknown. See http://- www.ecological-engineering.com/rescue.html And see: Carol Steinfeld, "Composting Toilets Emerge as Viable Alternatives," Environmental Design & Construction (July/August 1998), pgs. unknown. See http://www.edcmag.com/archives/7-98-14.htm. Descriptor terms: sewage; human waste; sludge; agriculture; hazardous waste; compost; sewage treatment systems; ======================== David Robison Stellar Processes From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 12 12:26:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA23276 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:26:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25373; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA25198 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:13:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B2B37F@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:16:43 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 12 Apr 99 12:16:52 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 12 Apr 99 12:16:48 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:16:42 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: If Earth is to be destroyed anyway, then what? Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199904121400.KAA04048@envirolink.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <26A81BC31EB@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 609 Mark Moodie wrote: Still no cigar. Catholic hell is kamaloca - a personal stage of learning to lose the desires of the body when the body has gone. This is a process of learning not to be attached to the earth and to our bodies as both will pass. "Is it possible to learn how to care and yet no to care, for love has two faces, hope and despair..." Just curious, where does this quotation come from? Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 12 14:50:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA26765 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:50:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19200; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18797 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:35:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id hDUOa27823 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:38:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9dfce249.244397a8@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:38:32 EDT Subject: Re: BD holding back the earth To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 610 In answer to Patrick - I was troubled by what I heard for precisely the reasons given in some of the answering posts: why are we doing BD if by doing so we are holding the earth back? Because I was working with medicines at the time I felt that we are here to heal and can only do so if there is something to heal, while the earth is healthy it doesn't need BD. The "Etherization" seemed a direct follow on to that thought as well as the thought voiced previously in these posts that what counts is the inner development of the farmer/gardner as much as the applications. In every case we are dealing with refinement of substance, which becomes healing for the physical part. So, maybe "holding back" and "freeing the spiritual" is paradoxical but are we attempting to spiritualize substance which becomes nurturing medicine for physical substance so that it doesn't fall away too soon, or is redeemed as much as possible? Is there a mathematical equation for this? The last sentence in the "Etherisation" section seemed to provide the clue: "We shall also learn to value what is positive, namely the penetration of spiritual forces into our existance on Earth." Anyway, Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 12 19:14:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA04112 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:14:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08325; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08066 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:59:40 -0400 (EDT) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id hFJHa17882 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:02:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <47a0b6ed.2443d586@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:02:30 EDT Subject: Re: BD holding back the earth To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 611 Thanks Christine for your thoughts. So BD is a necessary part of this earth evolution just as much as opposing forces ( calcification, ossification, a general hardening of human body(s)? Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 12 19:53:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA05498 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:53:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA14664; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA14281 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:38:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp39.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.139]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA19625 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:39:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <001801be853e$20a67900$8b4b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: "BD NOW LIST" Subject: Biodiversity for the new millennium Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:42:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 612 Dear friends, For your information, I'm forwarded from the sci.bio.ecology newslist: For a profound listen on the subject of biodiversity tune in to CBC radio Monday night. You will need RealAudio (free) to listen via your computer. To access the broadcast go to www.radio.cbc.ca and click, under CBC Live, to Montreal or Toronto (Montreal has better quality) for the broadcast at 9:00 EDT, Halifax (8:00 p.m. EDT) or Edmonton (10:00 p.m. EDT).You can find the link to download RealAudio at the CBC site as well. >From the www.radio.cbc.ca: "Tonight on Ideas...the start of a new eight-part Monday series, From Naked Ape to Super-species, hosted by David Suzuki. Humankind has become a "superspecies", capable of altering the features of our planet. In this series, David Suzuki examines the impact of human culture on the natural world as we move into a new millennium. Tonight: Bugs 'R' Us, an examination of biodiversity. That's tonight on Ideas at 9:05 (9:35 NT) on CBC Radio One." Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 12 20:56:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA06183 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:56:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23669; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:44:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vogon.agric.nsw.gov.au (vogon.agric.NSW.GOV.AU [203.37.14.100]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA23477 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:42:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tamsun.nsw.gov.au (tamsun [148.145.90.1]) by vogon.agric.nsw.gov.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA04342 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:45:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost by tamsun.nsw.gov.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA06194; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:44:36 +1000 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:44:36 +1000 (EST) From: Leighton Ayre To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Formal testing. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 613 Greetings all! I've been intently digesting the discussions on this list for the past few months and must begin by stating how delightful it is to be in contact with so many determined, well balanced individuals. You're doing a great job all round. I'm working in a government agricultural department in Australia and have recently had the opportunity to discuss biodynamics with some senior staff memebers. As you well understand it is difficult for scientists to comprehend issues which cannot be readily quantified, but I did my best in explaning what I have read. A few questions were raised which I hope you can help me with. 1/ Have there been any formal comparisons of an experimental nature between biodynamic and modern farming systems? 2/ Do biodynamic practices make soil nutrients more available to plant life? 3/ If so how are the nutrients replaced? 4/ Have changes in the soil nutrient levels been mapped? Thanks for any help. Leighton. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 12 23:40:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08457 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:40:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14042; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA13702 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:17:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.50] (pm3shep1-163-50.intrepid.net [209.190.163.50]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA05161 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:20:51 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:18:59 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Fire Ant Problem--PLEASE HELP! (fwd) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 614 hi, i am from s fla and living in a somewhat communal student house which changes habitants nearly each semester, where over the years people have lived "natually" (compost, wild yard growth) but not responsibly and today we, the present residents, are stuck with a huge pest problem! we are most serously infested with fire ants, and i would appreciate any advice provided. Current tactis include: killing nest larvae with boiling water, spreading diatemaceous earth as a fatal food substance, wiping down countertops with vinegar, and a tempting ants onto a molasses/sugar/yeast substance where they get stuck and die. we are willing to try anything short of harmful chemicals. i once heard of a special rat control which emanated from biodynamics which involved using the scent of dead rats killed during a specific season to ward off living rats. could there be a similar tactic for dispersing fire ants? our other main concern is not to kill ALL our native fauna, just some of the most aggressive. while im, here, we also have a bad termite infestation. is there anything we can do short of tenting the house or removing all infested wood? thanks so much for your help, jessie PLEASE RESOND TO ME AT jnoon@virtu.sar.usf.edu AS I AM NOT PART OF THE BDNOW LIST p.s. does anybody know we might go about importing an aardvark? ;) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 00:58:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA10243 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA22710; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA22577 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max7-3.stc.net [208.210.134.3]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA26615 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:40:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:19:02 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Too Much Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 615 Christine (Lilipoh) quoted from a 1911 lecture about etherization of the blood: >If we look into early post-Atlantean times, we find that men built their >dwelling-places by methods very different from those used in modern life. In >those days they made use of all kinds of growing things. Even when building >palaces they summoned nature to their aid by utilising plants interlaced with >branches of trees and so on, whereas today men must build with broken >fragments. All the culture of the external world is contrived with the aid of >products of fragmentation. And in the course of the coming years you will >realise even more clearly how much in our civilised life is the outcome of >destruction. >Light itself is being distroyed in this post-Atlantean age of the Earth's >existence, which until the time of Atlantis was a progressive process. Since >then it has been a process of decay. What is light? Light decays and the >decaying light is electricity. What we know as electricity is light that is >being destroyed in matter. And the chemical force that undergoes a >transformation in the process of Earth evolution is magnetism. Yet a third >force will become active and if electicity seems to work wonders today, this >third force will affect civilisation in a still more miraculous way. The more >of this force we employ, the faster will the Earth tend to become a corpse >and its spiritual part prepare for the Jupiter embodiment. Forces have to be >applied for the purpose of destruction, in order that man may become free of >the Earth and that the Earth's body may fall away. As long as the Earth was >involved in progressive evolution, no such destruction took place, for the >great achievements of electricity can only serve a decaying Earth. Strange as >this sounds, it must gradually become known. By understanding the process of >evolution we shall learn to assess our culture at its true value. We shall >also learn that it is necessary for the Earth to be destroyed, for otherwise >the spiritual could not become free. We shall also learn to value what is >positive, namely the penetration of spiritual forces into our existance on >Earth." Thanks Christine, Certainly in our world today nuclear force (the third force) is being applied on a fairly large scale and it is destroying the Earth. Eighteen years or so ago I got a pamphlet from Anthroposophic Press by Karl Unger about nuclear energy and the occult atom. In it he quotes RS as pointing out not only the perils of using/misusing nuclear energy (third force) but as I recall it that we must not (I don't have the pamphlet any more) interfere with the efforts to use nuclear power. Maybe interfere is not the right word. Hold back might be closer. That's a sight different from saying we must not heal the effects caused. If we do not hold back those who conduct underground nuclear tests, injecting the worst sort of poison under the Earth's skin, we will certainly have something to heal. The Earth is increasingly in ill shape and the better we understand BD and apply it the closer we come to finding a remedy for the Earth's malaise. The fact that we're not holding back nuclear power makes it all the more urgent that wse practice biodynamics, seems to me. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 04:19:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA12339 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 04:19:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA05180; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 04:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mashie.force9.net (mashie.force9.net [195.166.128.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA05123 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 04:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904130804.EAA05123@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 18699 invoked from network); 13 Apr 1999 08:10:13 -0000 Received: from coors.free-online.net (212.56.108.80) by mashie.force9.net with SMTP; 13 Apr 1999 08:10:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 32434 invoked from network); 13 Apr 1999 08:09:35 -0000 Received: from 357.hiper05.dialin.free-online.net (HELO ?212.56.119.101?) (212.56.119.101) by coors.free-online.net with SMTP; 13 Apr 1999 08:09:35 -0000 Subject: Re: If Earth is to be destroyed anyway, then what? Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 09:10:10 +0100 x-sender: elementalsols@mail.free-online.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Mark Moodie To: "BD list Postings" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 616 Anita Graf (Staff) wrote;- >"Is it possible to learn how to care and yet no to care, for >love has two faces, hope and despair..." > >Just curious, where does this quotation come from? Joni Mitchell, Wild Things Run Fast - Moon at the Window. Probably nicked from TS Elliot Mark Moodie mark.es@aecb.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 05:08:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA12586 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 05:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA07829; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 04:55:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA07704 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 04:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bio (kmidc67-67.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.67]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA30738 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:57:22 +1000 Message-ID: <00a101be858b$84e4fb60$5f431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: BD holding back the earth Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:52:11 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 617 Christine and others, Yes, now you are on the right track, I think it was Lievegoeds last book, (I dont have it here,) where he actually says that by working Biodynamically on our land we are enabling it to evolve spiritually onto the next stage of evolution (Venus?). I was totally overwhelmed by this, that our actions would be helping the earth to evolve spiritually. So all the more to get those BD preps out there!!! I am reading Steiners "Gospel of St. John" absolutely amazing, he goes a lot into the evolutionary stages of the earth, humanity even the Lemurian and Atlantean stages. Well worth a good read. Cheryl Kemp Education & Advisory Coordinator Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 -----Original Message----- From: Lilipoh@aol.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, 13 April 1999 4:42 am Subject: Re: BD holding back the earth >In answer to Patrick - >I was troubled by what I heard for precisely the reasons given in some of the >answering posts: why are we doing BD if by doing so we are holding the earth >back? Because I was working with medicines at the time I felt that we are >here to heal and can only do so if there is something to heal, while the >earth is healthy it doesn't need BD. The "Etherization" seemed a direct >follow on to that thought as well as the thought voiced previously in these >posts that what counts is the inner development of the farmer/gardner as much >as the applications. In every case we are dealing with refinement of >substance, which becomes healing for the physical part. So, maybe "holding >back" and "freeing the spiritual" is paradoxical but are we attempting to >spiritualize substance which becomes nurturing medicine for physical >substance so that it doesn't fall away too soon, or is redeemed as much as >possible? Is there a mathematical equation for this? >The last sentence in the "Etherisation" section seemed to provide the clue: >"We shall also learn to value what is positive, namely the penetration of >spiritual forces into our existence on Earth." >Anyway, >Christine > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 05:09:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA12594 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 05:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA07878; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 04:55:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA07720 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 04:53:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bio (kmidc67-67.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.67]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA30745 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:57:28 +1000 Message-ID: <00a301be858b$88dbb100$5f431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Fw: Too Much! Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:55:06 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 618 Dear Hugh and Greg, Thankyou for your responses. I agree that maybe other ways have to be found, but feel that we do need to physically apply the 500 and Preps for a while to begin with. Also, with new farmers starting out, going straight into cosmic pipes is like taking them to step 10 before they have done 1-10. Sometimes I think having to sort out all the info and get the equipment and become part of making 500 helps them through the steep learning curve. Because a lot of Biodynamics is the farmers attitude and changing the way they are used to thinking. Of course if they are already into Radionics or understand it, ok, but if using a small amount of 500 per acre is a big issue then we need to wait a while to get them through that idea and put it into practice. I asked Peter Proctor what he thought and here is his answer. >. I dont think it is the way to introduce BD >500. I do reckon that you can put on a lot less 500 than normal dose on >those large areas. I do not how dilute you can go. The broadest farm in NZ >is Reg Shorten's [1800 acres] and he is putting 12.5 gr in 13.5litres over 2 >acres, and this has worked very well. Maybe you could bring this down by >half again which would work out at 22.5 kgs 500. Also he is putting 502/507 >on through seaweed or cowpatpit during the fly on of 500. I dont know if >the cosmic pipe works. I,ve never experienced it. I have only heard it >does, never seen the soil structure etc. I dont agree that Bd is not working >in the world at any rate the one that I live in. I think Greg Willis may >have a point about the horn clay. Infact I will try to make some this >autumn. Peter Proctor pproctor@inhb.co.nz> I am also going to try making the Horn Clay this weekend, and will work with it later. But I have a question, when you say that you see the clay as the mediator between 500 and 501, I have always felt that the compost preps take that role - ie; they organise the farm and soil and plants and balance etheric and astrality? It seems to me that you dont seem to use the Compost preps as much as we do in Aust and NZ. Or do you? We would use a lot in liquid manures such as seaweed and fish and various weed teas and cow pat pit. In fact in NZ we found that the more the preps were used, (as well as 500 2-3 times per year and 501 depending on the crop) the sooner the farm started "singing" or came into balance. (See Tony Robinsons email where he uses preps in liquid manures frequently) Probably apply 2-4 weekly on market gardens and fruit trees. I havent tried Cosmic pipes, but I sure could have used them over this last season, as we have had weeks of rain and it was impossble to put out 501 and preps when we knew the plants needed it. We have some farmers using CP on broadacre farms as well as stirred 500, which is great. Thanks and I look froward to hearing back. Cheryl Kemp. >-----Original Message----- >From: Hugh Lovel >To: Greg Willis >Cc: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Friday, 9 April 1999 3:37 pm >Subject: Re: Too Much! > > >>> I am going to be absolutely blunt. There is not time left to be >>>otherwise. It is my strongest belief that if we don't follow Dr. >>>Steiner's admonition and get our BD acts together by the end of this >>>century, there will be no biodynamics. It will atrophy to the point >>>that it will be no more effective than "organic" agriculture. That is >>>why I, and others like Hugh Lovel and Hugh Courtney, are working so hard >>>to drag biodynamics out of the traditional mold and into the next >>>century. That is why I champion Horn Clay so strongly. If we don't use >>>Horn Clay now, BD will be dead in 5 years. >>> You in the Southern Hemisphere will see the degradation before we in >>>the Northern Hemisphere will see it. I have spoken to people in NZ who >>>are already seeing it. Consider Cosmic Pipes. >>> >>>Cheers, >>> >>>Greg Willis >>> >> >>Dear Greg, Cheryl, BD Listers, etc., >> >>I've been thinking along similar lines for well over a dozen years. >> >>Long ago I extrapolated that at the past rate of progress (including >>various exponential growth curve models) BD methods might finally sweep the >>world in two or three hundred years, and then only if they improved >>markedly somewhere along the way. Does mankind and the Earth have that kind >>of time? Judging from the sort of comments Uncle Rudolf made in his >>agriculture lectures about the dying condition of the Earth I suspect not. >>Judging from the sort of wider and wider spread of disrupting and deadly >>conditions I have seen in my life and the way the agencies of death have >>consistantly outstripped the progress of remedies during my lifetime I'm >>sure we don't have much time left at all. >> >>With this in mind along with a vision of the (as yet unrealized) potential >>of biodynamic agriculture I've pursued a path of development aimed at >>vastly multiplying the effectiveness of BD methods. And I've made some >>progress, perhaps as much as 10% of what I envisioned. Since I envisioned >>about a hundredfold increase in effectiveness this means I'm seeing at >>least a tenfold increase in effectiveness in what I'm doing now as compared >>to the traditional BD methods I learned and most BDers practice today. >> >>Some of the milestones along the way have been (1) Harvey Lisle's insight >>that we really miss the boat unless we apply ALL the BD preps in pretty >>much as close to back-to-back a fashion as we can manage, (2) My own >>development of Galen Hieronymus's Cosmic Pipe concept into a stationary, >>self-driven etheric field broadcaster of all the BD preps for BOTH soil AND >>atmospheric ether fields, and (3) Greg Willis' work with horn clay which >>provides that all-important missing middle prep that bridges between the >>polarities of lime (earthly, inner planets) and silica (cosmic, outer >>planets), and in my experience does what our skins do for us, puts a >>protective membrane (kind of like an energy dome) over one's land. There >>have been a number of other developments, improvements and refinements >>including Hugh Courtney's discovery that sequential spraying ameliorates >>extreme weather conditions, Peter Proctor's advocacy of flow forms for >>potentization and also Courtney's development of homeopathic milk and honey >>sprays. But the first three listed above really stand out in my personal >>experience. >> >>Harvey was ever so right that the farm must be thought of as a living >>organism, an organic whole, and can't just do brain development for a year >>and then switch channels to development of eyes and ears. >> >>Over the years I've come to understand the resistance I've encountered >>about using a simple etheric field broadcasting instrument (a very simple >>device) to apply the preps instead of motors, machinery, compaction, >>physical damage, pollution, and enormous expenses involved in spraying >>large acreages. The BD preps are VERY powerful and when applied >>back-to-back each and every day their power scares the hell out of some >>folks. >> >>Now with Greg Willis' horn clay, the "missing" BD prep, providing the >>middle that ties the whole BD organism together I'm inclined to think >>there's hope of turning the corner and getting on the inside track in this >>race with death. >> >>There's a lot more that must be done to improve BD methods before we go >>into the stretch. We've got a lot of experimenting to do yet to find the >>most effective ways to use BD insights. It's important to set aside our >>illusions, petty jealousies and personal ambitions whenever we find they >>arise. There's no time left for those things. >> >>And just for starters it wouldn't happen to be an illusion that were not in >>a struggle with dark forces, or these dark forces haven't nearly won the >>day, or that we can relax and let the forces of light pull our chestnuts >>out of the fire, would it? >> >>I don't usually go in for spreading alarm, or for that matter casting >>blame. Rather I like to face the problems I see and get right down to >>business dealing with them--which is why I've done so much to develop the >>use of the cosmic pipe in BD agriculture. I want to see the reclaimation of >>the Sahara desert get successfully underway in my lifetime. >> >>Best, >> >> >> >> >>Hugh Lovel >>Blairsville, Georgia >> >>"We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." >>--Wendell Berry >> >> > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 05:40:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA12711 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 05:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA09153; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 05:26:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA08995 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 05:24:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bio (kmidc67-68.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.68]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA30771; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:27:46 +1000 Message-ID: <00f301be858f$c6530660$5f431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: , Subject: Re: Formal testing. Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:21:34 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 619 Hi Leighton, Where are you?? Ring me and we can discuss al this and more!! How wonderful to hear from you. Have a few friends in NSW Ag including Robyn Neeson and Tobias Koenig who is doing an experimental BD farm at Yanco at present. Roseworthy College did a trial for years in SA including BD, and we have books full of experiments done in Europe. If you could make it we are having a Preparation Making Weekend this weekend near Bellingen (18-19th April,) so ring me and we can get you going. Cheryl Kemp Education & Advisory Coordinator Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 -----Original Message----- From: Leighton Ayre Date: Tuesday, 13 April 1999 10:48 am Subject: Formal testing. >Greetings all! > I've been intently digesting the discussions on this list for the >past few months and must begin by stating how delightful it is to be in >contact with so many determined, well balanced individuals. You're doing a >great job all round. > I'm working in a government agricultural department in Australia >and have recently had the opportunity to discuss biodynamics with some >senior staff memebers. As you well understand it is difficult for >scientists to comprehend issues which cannot be readily quantified, but I >did my best in explaning what I have read. > A few questions were raised which I hope you can help me with. >1/ Have there been any formal comparisons of an experimental nature >between biodynamic and modern farming systems? >2/ Do biodynamic practices make soil nutrients more available to plant >life? >3/ If so how are the nutrients replaced? >4/ Have changes in the soil nutrient levels been mapped? > >Thanks for any help. >Leighton. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 06:28:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA12958 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 06:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA11715; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 06:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.fastinternet.net.au (root@ns.fastinternet.net.au [203.37.167.131]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA11617 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 06:14:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rsdwat (cwn141-207.fastinternet.net.au [203.37.172.207]) by ns.fastinternet.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA14502 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:28:20 +1000 Message-ID: <001201be8598$b2552400$cfac25cb@rsdwat> From: "sally & robert watson" To: Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:29:42 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 620 Chromatographic Testing A. Steigbild -vertical cylinder of filter paper drawing liquid up from dish. B. Chromatogram- horizontal disc of filter paper. Liquid is drawn up by a wick which is inserted in a small central hole in a disc and dips into a dish below. Liquid then spreads horizontally and radially not vertically. It is desirable to use sodium hydroxide in the test solution when making chromatograms-not steilbilder. Basic Requirements 1. Substance must be brought into aqueous solution fatty materials e.g. milk must be emulsified with NaOH. 2. Choice of suitable reagants AgNO3 AuCl4 (Gold Chloride) 3. High quality fine grained filter paper. Chromatograms- Whatman filter paper No 1 Qualitative 15 cm circles and 1 roll of No 1Chromatography paper 2 cm wide Steigbilder - Whatman filter paper No 1 must be cut in such a way that the flow direction indicated on the pack is maintained in the vertical cylinder Preperation of Test Material Veg material- Chop pulp in mortar and pestle. If juice does not cover residual pulp add water until this is adchieved after further stirring. Examine juice for viscosity. If too viscious make trial dilutions eg: strips of filter paper waste. Soils A 5 ml measure Pour 50 ml 1.0-2.0 Sodium hydroxide (NaOH)solution. Leave flask to stand 41/2 hours swirling once per hour. After third hour tilt flask to assist in settling sediment. When ready to test carefully tilt the flask further and pour out enough liquid to nearly fil a test tube. Compost Pour in 150 ml of 1.0%NaOH Remove test liquid with a dropper to avoid sediment Preparation of Test Papers Cut test papers to size at least 7 days before use. Roll groups of up to six and wrap in clean paper to retain their curvature. Daylight must be excluded during the period of testing and while papers are still wet. Ordinary incandescent electric light appears to be harmless. Final Test Procedure Set up glass dishes and run in 2-3ml of the solution. In general the second liquid should rise twice as far as the first. Tests should be left in the dishes until quite dry and then removed unclipped and slipped into cellophane bags for protection. Pin them to a suitable board exposed to indirect sunlight. Remove papers and store away from light and moisture. Different Test for Different Samples a. Steigbilder Extract first AgNO3 second b. Steigbilder AgNO3 first Extract second c. Chromatograms AgNO3 first Extract second a. Plant juices Water soluable vitamins Fruit juices Herbal medicines b. Medicinal herbs and plants Culinary Water soluable vitamins, medicines c. Soils, composts, BD preps Fruit juices Vitamin preps Herbal medicines Animal products Seeds and seed products. Robert Watson Australia rsdwat@fastinternet.net.au From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 08:58:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA14557 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:58:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21997; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:44:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21668 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:41:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.13]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:48:32 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:45:25 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring, reaching a record yesterday. The New York Times Message-ID: <39BBA7D3969B44918525675200453EBD.00455A6085256752@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 621 By DAVID FIRESTONE ATLANTA -- In an awesome burst of friskiness, the trees of northern Georgia have coated Atlanta with a thick yellow veil of fertility, and the city is beginning to wheeze under the weight. Pollen, the male reproductive agent of plants, is everywhere. In the mornings it is heaped in sticky mounds and swirls on the sidewalks, the windshields, the patio furniture, the dogs. Sweep it up -- wearing, of course, one of the white surgical masks on half the faces of the city -- and it is back again, drifting through the window screens and electrifying once-proper dark shoes. Veil Over Atlanta Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring, reaching a record yesterday. The New York Times ------------------------------------------------------------------------ No one is paying attention to the Dow anymore; instead, the city has awakened for the last week to watch the pollen count reach ever-more-absurd heights. One radio station had a pollen-count guessing game on Friday, and no one even came close. On Monday morning the count for the Atlanta area reached an all-time high of 6,013 grains per cubic meter, which is virtually unimaginable considering that the national scale says a count of 120 is considered "very high." Monday's count is 33 percent higher than in any previously recorded spring in Atlanta, and far higher than any other city in the country, except for Tulsa, Okla., which reported a count of 6,299 over the weekend. Michael Muilenberg, a Harvard University public health instructor who keeps the records for the National Pollen Bureau, said the highest count ever recorded was about 14,000 two years ago in Tulsa, which has a high concentration of extremely prolific mountain cedars. But he said the Atlanta count was quite impressive. The sneeze count, naturally, is also off the charts. Margaret Higgins, a nurse at the Atlanta Allergy and Asthma Clinic, which has kept the city's pollen counts for the last decade, estimated that she sneezed 30 times in five minutes at one point during the weekend. "I made the mistake of eating outside on the patio," Ms. Higgins said. "An allergy sufferer cannot do that. I usually wear a mask and goggles when I go out, but it was so nice that I couldn't resist. Now I'm paying for it." Thousands of patients at her clinic and others scattered around the area are also experiencing one of the worst weeks of their respiratory lives. Allergy clinics are booked up three weeks in advance. Some pharmacies have experienced shortages of Claritin, Allegra or Benadryl, and regular users have been known to panic and plead with their druggists for refills. Biologists say it may be another product of the recent global weather phenomenon known as La Nina: a warm, dry winter, followed by an early spring and an unusual confluence of the germination cycles of several species of trees. The lack of rain recently and a wind strong enough to whip up a spectacular fire just outside downtown on Sunday have also been blamed, but for most residents there are no satisfactory explanations. There is only the chartreuse torrent of spring, and it is in every lung in Atlanta. Though the most visible pollen -- the fertility agent of pine trees -- is said to be relatively harmless to breathers, it has its own form of pathology. Last week, a combination of pollen and a light coating of drizzle was blamed for slickening the pavement of Interstate 285, causing a chain-reaction pileup that damaged or destroyed 18 vehicles in DeKalb County, northeast of town. Many people will not even venture into their back yards. Electrostatic air filters have become popular, and the television meteorologists are advising everyone to take frequent showers, wash their hands constantly, stay away from pets and avoid drying clothes outside. "I hate it, but there's nothing else to do," said Lee R. Woodall, a designer with Kitchens of Atlanta whose eyes water and chest contracts the moment she walks outside. "When they go to the bio-hazard suits, we could wear those. I look good in silver." A good rain would rinse the air, but there has not been a good rain in a few weeks. Many sufferers say they are ready to seed the clouds. "Just one good, solid rain -- that's all we need," said Marc S. Komisarow, a financial planner whose wife spent the weekend in bed inhaling steroids and ingesting Zertac, an anti-allergen. "And also, if people would just stop planting trees in their yards." Even for Atlanta, one of the most heavily forested cities in the country with an abundance of southern pine and oak trees, the numbers seemed a bit impossible. Several national experts said the count seemed unlikely, and questioned whether the Atlanta counting machine might be a little too close to a libidinous conifer. But at the Atlanta Allergy and Asthma Clinic, Dr. Kathleen Sheerin said there was little doubt that the numbers were correct. "I was in Dallas over the weekend, and they were all excited because they had a count of 1,000," Dr. Sheerin said. "To me, it was like a breath of clean, crisp air." From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 09:25:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15375 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25318; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:12:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cougar.ssi.stratus.com (cougar.ssi.stratus.com [198.97.42.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25044 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:09:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by cougar.ssi.stratus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07447 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:11:14 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <39BBA7D3969B44918525675200453EBD.00455A6085256752@webcity> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:11:14 -0400 (EDT) Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Charlie Hodgson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: RE: Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring, reachi Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 622 On 13-Apr-99 Jane Sherry/wcdev/US wrote: > By DAVID FIRESTONE > > ATLANTA -- In an awesome burst of friskiness, the trees of northern Georgia > have coated Atlanta with a thick yellow veil of fertility, and the city is > beginning to wheeze under the weight. > > said Marc S. Komisarow : > "And also, if people would just stop planting trees in their yards." Now there's a smart solution. > Even for Atlanta, one of the most heavily forested cities in the country .. It won't be for long. Everywhere you look, they are clear cutting to build housing and stores.I can imagine the developers using this as an argument for clear cuting. Charlie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 09:43:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15961 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:43:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27574; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:31:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27407 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:30:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp3.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.103]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA12779 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:31:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <005501be85b2$40221180$674b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: <39BBA7D3969B44918525675200453EBD.00455A6085256752@webcity> Subject: Re: Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring, reaching a recordyesterday. The New York Times Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:33:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 623 Now this is terribly interesting! In "Planetary Influences on Plants", E. M. Kranich says that the coniferous trees are Saturn (here we go again, Glenn?) and that the only connection with the sun's annual cycle is in the budding & (male/mars?) pollen formation during spring & early summer. So the Sun is in late Aries, will come to conjunction with Saturn (conifers) at 4 Taurus before too long and Saturn & Mars Rx are in wide opposition right now...I'm afraid the Sun hitting this somewhat difficult opposition will highlight it, give it strength (yikes!) hmmm. And also note that last record count was in Tulsa 2 years ago (a mars cycle), mention of the 18 car pile-up (mega-mars) and HUGE fire (more mars) outside Atlanta...they're praying for rain, and advising using lots of water as remedy (showers, etc.) and don't plant any trees (Saturn in Taurus?)...Anyone care to help me put this together? And why Atlanta? Pat, Glenn? Thanks for your tolerance...I just can't help myself :-) Julie PS...Jupiter (excess) in Aries too right now...lotsa Mars, lotsa pollen? > Pollen, the male reproductive agent of plants, is everywhere. > records for the National Pollen Bureau, said the highest count ever > recorded was about 14,000 two years ago in Tulsa, which has a high > concentration of extremely prolific mountain cedars. But he said the > Atlanta count was quite impressive. > Though the most visible pollen -- the fertility agent of pine trees -- is > said to be relatively harmless to breathers, it has its own form of > pathology. Last week, a combination of pollen and a light coating of > drizzle was blamed for slickening the pavement of Interstate 285, causing a > chain-reaction pileup that damaged or destroyed 18 vehicles in DeKalb > County, northeast of town. > > Many people will not even venture into their back yards. Electrostatic air > filters have become popular, and the television meteorologists are advising > everyone to take frequent showers, wash their hands constantly, stay away > from pets and avoid drying clothes outside. > A good rain would rinse the air, but there has not been a good rain in a > few weeks. Many sufferers say they are ready to seed the clouds. > > "Just one good, solid rain -- that's all we need," said Marc S. Komisarow, > a financial planner whose wife spent the weekend in bed inhaling steroids > and ingesting Zertac, an anti-allergen. "And also, if people would just > stop planting trees in their yards." > > Even for Atlanta, one of the most heavily forested cities in the country > with an abundance of southern pine and oak trees, the numbers seemed a bit > impossible. Several national experts said the count seemed unlikely, and > questioned whether the Atlanta counting machine might be a little too close > to a libidinous conifer. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 09:55:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16173 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:55:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29179; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29025 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:43:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 7615 invoked from network); 13 Apr 1999 13:46:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (207.139.122.154) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 13 Apr 1999 13:46:52 -0000 Message-ID: <04cd01be85b3$8a301640$83d42fd1@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring, reaching a recordyesterday. The New York Times Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:42:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 624 I wonder how much N and P are spread around in pollen? Frank---figgers when the allergy suffering is over, maybe a silver lining of improved soil fertility may emerge.... From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 10:15:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16676 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01835; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:02:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01769 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp274.cy-net.net [208.21.195.83]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26021; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:05:51 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE858B.6EE062A0@FLYLO>; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:55:52 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE858B.6EE062A0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'jnoon@virtu.sar.usf.edu'" Cc: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: fire ants Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:55:32 -0500 Encoding: 23 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 625 A couple of seasons ago we tried ANTidote a nematode that infects ants. there are several names it goes by but it seems to have kept them at bay from at least around the house. I don't mind seeing them in the yard and around the place but not being able to put out the dog's dinner or bird seed gets aggravating, and so does not being able to walk in the kitchen without the 'pepper' getting up and running around. If you don't want to destroy them, the best you can do is discourage them from living so close to your home, and sounds like you're doing that. I've noticed winged ants already so they're about to fly and mate and at that point, it'll be probably too late for any nematode to work well. They work best in the earlier cool parts of the year. Also, keep in mind fire ants can't build deep nests or tunnels in very sandy soil, so you may try putting sand beds around the foundation of your dorm or house. I haven't found DE to be very effective. But for awhile I was raising Lady Gouldian finches and they enjoy nestling food of ant eggs. (You get really fast when you have to pluck an ant egg from it's enraged upturned nest, but it does pretty much make the nest get up and leave afterward.) PPE: I wear those (red of course) garden clogs and the ants can't get hold easily to climb up. so, you can remain standing in one spot a little longer than if you were in sandals or tennis shoes. Wear a hat because they like to climb up trees and bombard you when you shake the limbs, too. martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 11:46:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20369 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:46:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16277; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:33:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16146 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:33:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B3B2DA@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:36:54 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 13 Apr 99 11:37:04 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 13 Apr 99 11:36:40 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:36:39 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring, reachi Priority: normal In-reply-to: <39BBA7D3969B44918525675200453EBD.00455A6085256752@webcity> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <281D7593E8D@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 626 Here in Athens, GA we experienced the yellow blizzard too. Amazing! Being new to the area, I didn't know that it was unusual. As I swept up piles of polen, I wondered, "wouldn't this make a nice natural yellow pigment for paint?" The color really is quite beautiful and certainly long lasting! I think it's a wonder and a shame that something natural like pollen sends people begging and screaming to pharmacies for yet more synthetic chemicals to put into their systems. Seems that people can take the equivelant (whatever that might be!) of a 6,000+ pollen count in GMOs, artificial flavors and colors, processed sugars, biocides of every stripe, air "fresheners", toxic chemicals seeping from their carpets, cars, and everywhere else, yet a prolific burst of POLLEN brings 'em to their knees. Amazing. For some reason I don't seem very suseptible to "allergies" and can only philosophize and theorize why that is so. And I wonder what it means when trees go so overboard on pollen production -- ie, does it have more significance than La Nina? I think trees are saying (and rightly so!) "hey, we're losing too much ground [literally and figuratively] and we need to propogate much more!!!" Just some thoughts from this corner of the Yellow South. -Anita From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:45:25 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring, reaching a record yesterday. The New York Times Reply-to: bdnow@envirolink.org By DAVID FIRESTONE ATLANTA -- In an awesome burst of friskiness, the trees of northern Georgia have coated Atlanta with a thick yellow veil of fertility, and the city is beginning to wheeze under the weight. Pollen, the male reproductive agent of plants, is everywhere. In the mornings it is heaped in sticky mounds and swirls on the sidewalks, the windshields, the patio furniture, the dogs. Sweep it up -- wearing, of course, one of the white surgical masks on half the faces of the city -- and it is back again, drifting through the window screens and electrifying once-proper dark shoes. Veil Over Atlanta Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring, reaching a record yesterday. The New York Times ------------------------------------------------------------------------ No one is paying attention to the Dow anymore; instead, the city has awakened for the last week to watch the pollen count reach ever-more-absurd heights. One radio station had a pollen-count guessing game on Friday, and no one even came close. On Monday morning the count for the Atlanta area reached an all-time high of 6,013 grains per cubic meter, which is virtually unimaginable considering that the national scale says a count of 120 is considered "very high." Monday's count is 33 percent higher than in any previously recorded spring in Atlanta, and far higher than any other city in the country, except for Tulsa, Okla., which reported a count of 6,299 over the weekend. Michael Muilenberg, a Harvard University public health instructor who keeps the records for the National Pollen Bureau, said the highest count ever recorded was about 14,000 two years ago in Tulsa, which has a high concentration of extremely prolific mountain cedars. But he said the Atlanta count was quite impressive. The sneeze count, naturally, is also off the charts. Margaret Higgins, a nurse at the Atlanta Allergy and Asthma Clinic, which has kept the city's pollen counts for the last decade, estimated that she sneezed 30 times in five minutes at one point during the weekend. "I made the mistake of eating outside on the patio," Ms. Higgins said. "An allergy sufferer cannot do that. I usually wear a mask and goggles when I go out, but it was so nice that I couldn't resist. Now I'm paying for it." Thousands of patients at her clinic and others scattered around the area are also experiencing one of the worst weeks of their respiratory lives. Allergy clinics are booked up three weeks in advance. Some pharmacies have experienced shortages of Claritin, Allegra or Benadryl, and regular users have been known to panic and plead with their druggists for refills. Biologists say it may be another product of the recent global weather phenomenon known as La Nina: a warm, dry winter, followed by an early spring and an unusual confluence of the germination cycles of several species of trees. The lack of rain recently and a wind strong enough to whip up a spectacular fire just outside downtown on Sunday have also been blamed, but for most residents there are no satisfactory explanations. There is only the chartreuse torrent of spring, and it is in every lung in Atlanta. Though the most visible pollen -- the fertility agent of pine trees -- is said to be relatively harmless to breathers, it has its own form of pathology. Last week, a combination of pollen and a light coating of drizzle was blamed for slickening the pavement of Interstate 285, causing a chain-reaction pileup that damaged or destroyed 18 vehicles in DeKalb County, northeast of town. Many people will not even venture into their back yards. Electrostatic air filters have become popular, and the television meteorologists are advising everyone to take frequent showers, wash their hands constantly, stay away from pets and avoid drying clothes outside. "I hate it, but there's nothing else to do," said Lee R. Woodall, a designer with Kitchens of Atlanta whose eyes water and chest contracts the moment she walks outside. "When they go to the bio-hazard suits, we could wear those. I look good in silver." A good rain would rinse the air, but there has not been a good rain in a few weeks. Many sufferers say they are ready to seed the clouds. "Just one good, solid rain -- that's all we need," said Marc S. Komisarow, a financial planner whose wife spent the weekend in bed inhaling steroids and ingesting Zertac, an anti-allergen. "And also, if people would just stop planting trees in their yards." Even for Atlanta, one of the most heavily forested cities in the country with an abundance of southern pine and oak trees, the numbers seemed a bit impossible. Several national experts said the count seemed unlikely, and questioned whether the Atlanta counting machine might be a little too close to a libidinous conifer. But at the Atlanta Allergy and Asthma Clinic, Dr. Kathleen Sheerin said there was little doubt that the numbers were correct. "I was in Dallas over the weekend, and they were all excited because they had a count of 1,000," Dr. Sheerin said. "To me, it was like a breath of clean, crisp air." From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 12:18:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21186 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:18:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21115; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:05:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20651 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max7-32.stc.net [208.210.134.32]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA08204; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00a301be858b$88dbb100$5f431ccb@bio> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1989 10:44:24 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Fw: Too Much! Cc: srcosmos@interx.net Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 627 Dear Cheryl, Thanks for this response. It is another step toward clairity in these matters. >Dear Hugh and Greg, >Thankyou for your responses. I agree that maybe other ways have to be >found, but feel that we do need to physically apply the 500 and Preps for a >while to begin with. Yes. I come in contact with a lot of different types of farmers. Whenever possible I like to get them to physically apply the preps in the beginning. I've even physically applied some of the preps myself when on a consult to show them even though I know they aren't going to do it themselves. I believe there is something to physically handling the preps too, as even though a great many people have no conscious, rational grasp of the preps their etheric and astral bodies "get it." >Also, with new farmers starting out, going straight >into cosmic pipes is like taking them to step 10 before they have done 1-10. I've found there is a significant part of the farm population that wants to go straight to using a cosmic pipe and none of this stirring machine, spray rig stuff. They don't have any trouble with the concept of putting a geometric card in a Malcolm Rae potentizer with a vial of milk sugar tablets in the well and dialing the desired potency to make a reagent for the cosmic pipe--then broadcasting it (without using it up). What is much harder to get people accustomed to is the idea that there is NO ONLY SOLUTION, no magic that "if you only do this it will solve all the problems of existence." That one is so deeply ingrained that mostly you can't dent peoples' awareness more than the tiniest ding. There is also a very strong belief out there that the soil is what grows the plant. Soil, soil, soil, everyone's focused on the soil. You can go to any sort of Ag Expo and there's a hundred things for the soil from seaweed/molasses sprays to spading machines. There's almost no perception that what really makes plants grow, and for that matter break down again, is a very dynamic interplay of forces between what is below ground and what is above so that the atmosphere is every bit as important (if not moreso) than the soil. People tend to wake up a bit on this one when you point it all out, but the commonest response is, "Oh. But what can you do about the atmosphere. I get it that my crops are getting eaten by insects and digested by fungi before they get ripe because there is too much emphasis on the soil and not enough on the atmosphere where fruiting and ripening occur. But what can you do about the atmosphere. There's nothing you can do about the atmosphere, is there?" First they have to realize that even though the wind blows across the land, traveling right through the farm, the atmospheric life energy field is downright stationary by comparison. You can treat the atmosphere with 501, with 508 and with summer horn clay and achieve wonderful results. It is about this time that some of them begin to get it how the cosmic pipe can broadcast into this life energy field very effectively. >Sometimes I think having to sort out all the info and get the equipment and >become part of making 500 helps them through the steep learning curve. >Because a lot of Biodynamics is the farmers attitude and changing the way >they are used to thinking. Of course if they are already into Radionics or >understand it, ok, but if using a small amount of 500 per acre is a big >issue then we need to wait a while to get them through that idea and put it >into practice. I suppose it is because I have associated with people into radionics, psychotronics, dowsing, teletherapy, etc. who had no prior exposure to BD, but what I've found is that stuffing cow horns, making cowpat pit manure and all the compost preps, grinding 501, etc. are a very steep learning curve. It's not just that these are a great deal of bother. They boggle the mind greatly. For folks already exposed to homeopathy, accupuncture, dowsing and teletherapy, even though they can conceive that it works and they can get over the hump, so to speak, of burying preps in specific ways, it is so crude and mechanical. And when it comes to applying 500 and 501 to a 10,000 acre wheat farm the logistics of stirring and spraying are a real challenge. They can see broadcasting easily enough. What they can't see is the army of labor and machinery, to say nothing of the amount of preps necessary to do it right. And this brings me to another point. In 12 years of experimenting with the cosmic pipe I've found out quite a few things. Back that many years ago Harvey Lisle pointed out that we created imbalances by spraying one prep, such as 500 and waiting months (in some cases years) to spray it's complement. He wasn't coming from using a cosmic pipe particularly. Just from studying biodynamics and growing that way for thirty years. You put on 500 and you guide the farm organism like a mule in one direction. And it keeps going that way. Then you come along with 501, like when the hayfield is lush in the spring, and you guide the farm organism in the other direction and suddenly it blooms 2 or 3 weeks early and you've got only two thirds of the normal yield, and even that doesn't have as much in it as it should. It kind of lands you in the ditch. That's because the 500 and the 501 should always be sprayed back to back. It's like goosing your mule down the center of the road rather than full right for a while and then full left. Hugh Courtney grasped this idea and cognited that really we should be spraying out cowpat pit (here it is called barrel compound) and our 508 along with the 500 and 501 so that with four back-to-back applications we applied all the preps. (This is before horn clay.) Well, where this has been done it has really proven itself. The trouble is that on larger areas this becomes a logistical nightmare. It is very easy on a one acre garden, but try doing it on 50 or 100 acres. And 50 or 100 acres is still a small farm. With a cosmic pipe this back-to-back application of all the preps is easier than falling off a log. So when you look at this gradient thing maybe you can see that for some growers using a cosmic pipe is a steep gradient, but for others applying the preps physically is an even steeper gradient. >I asked Peter Proctor what he thought and here is his answer. > > >>. I dont think it is the way to introduce BD >>500. I do reckon that you can put on a lot less 500 than normal dose on >>those large areas. I do not how dilute you can go. The broadest farm in NZ >>is Reg Shorten's [1800 acres] and he is putting 12.5 gr in 13.5litres over >2 >>acres, and this has worked very well. Maybe you could bring this down by >>half again which would work out at 22.5 kgs 500. Also he is putting >502/507 >>on through seaweed or cowpatpit during the fly on of 500. I dont know if >>the cosmic pipe works. I,ve never experienced it. I have only heard it >>does, never seen the soil structure etc. I did a workshop at Rudolf Steiner College with Peter this past October. I have enormous respect and good feeling for him, and after the workshop I showed him a cosmip pipe and gave him a brief explanation of how it works. But, of course, there was no way to give him any first hand experience with it working in place over any period of time. About the most I could do is recount some of the surprising experiences I've had with it when it wasn't used properly. It's a very potent way of applying the preps and can lead to extreme imbalances in a relatively short time if used without all the preps working in it in harmony. Here again we're culturally conditioned to look for living soil phenomena without looking for signs of a living atmosphere. So a farmer could put in a cosmic pipe and add his favorite minerals and seaweeds to the broadcast, get excited about how dark and crumbly his soil becomes and wonder why his melons don't ripen as they should or why the distance between internodes stretches out and his stems become weak. Since folks aren't used to spotting the early signs of this or that imbalance they need a lot of guidance when starting out with a cosmic pipe or they are likely to get into trouble pretty quick. With physical application of preps, especially when spraying 500 and then waiting months to spray 501, they are getting imbalanced but it is nowhere near as obvious because it is so much more gradual. With the cosmic pipe every prep is applied every day 365 days a year, which makes it a very potent method of applying the preps and magnifies imbalances very rapidly. >>I dont agree that Bd is not working >>in the world at any rate the one that I live in. I think Greg Willis may >>have a point about the horn clay. Infact I will try to make some this >>autumn. >Peter Proctor pproctor@inhb.co.nz> When Greg says BD isn't working in the world today that sounds pretty absolute. It reminds me of some of Harvey Lisle's absolute statements of "You've got BD forces here. Over there you don't have any BD forces." I don't see it so black and white. But Greg has a point. The forces of pollution and death are so strong these days (especially in the US, the world's worst polluter) that a lackadasical BD program is woefully insufficient to the task of bringing the land to vibrant life and health. > > >I am also going to try making the Horn Clay this weekend, and will work with >it later. But I have a question, when you say that you see the clay as the >mediator between 500 and 501, I have always felt that the compost preps take >that role - ie; they organise the farm and soil and plants and balance >etheric and astrality? By all means. The compost preps work to organize (i. e. organ + ize) the farm etherically, astrally and even egoically. For instance the 502 relates to the organic function of purification and excretion, and in particular the kidneys and bladder, planet Venus, copper, etc.. The 506 relates to regulation of the blood and bodily functions, and in particular to the liver, planet Jupiter, tin, etc. The horn clay is something else entirely. It works like the dermis and holds the whole show together. Without skin--and I'm not talking about the epidermis or the hair--your life forces would leak away regardless of whether you have a good supply of life forces to the brain and senses and regardless of whether the organs of the belly are all functional. Too bad we never realized it before. But we didn't and our farm organisms, standing on their heads though they were, weren't very good at building up their external energies and weren't very good at fending off contaminants from outside. We were always trying to build up vibrant life in our farm organisms and leaking it away. It's a little hard to appreciate how true this is until you've used horn clay as part of a good back-to-back application method and seen what happens. The first experience I had with a field where horn clay had been applied was at Topolos Winery last October. Looking at the vineyard with my mind's eye what I saw was like a dome or membrane arching over the vineyard. There was a highway at the upper end of the vineyard, and trucks and cars rushing past all the time (California traffic). There's some additive in the gasoline to add oxygen to the fuel out there and it's particularly pollutive, so it's a serious matter. But in this case I stepped up on the road bank and was assaulted by the pollution. I stepped down into the vineyard and there was a real noticeable protection from what was going on "out there" on the roadside. Moreover, the effect on the atmospheric life force field was to contain it and build it up like a bubble of energy over the vineyard. Without the horn clay it probably would have been like most other BD fields I've seen and had a rather flat and weak profile to its atmospheric energy. Remember that clay's primary function is to carry the forces of the outer planets (which resonate in the siliceous rocks deep within the Earth's crust and ray upward) into the plants and upward toward fruit and seed. This is similar to how our skin functions to let the heat we generate in our metabolism out into the air around us. But our skin contains this heat and holds it in too, especially in winter. >It seems to me that you dont seem to use the Compost preps as much as we do >in Aust and NZ. Or do you? Here all along I've been thinking you didn't use the compost preps so much down under as we do here. We certainly make use of the compost preps here. >We would use a lot in liquid manures such as >seaweed and fish and various weed teas and cow pat pit. In fact in NZ we >found that the more the preps were used, (as well as 500 2-3 times per year >and 501 depending on the crop) the sooner the farm started "singing" or came >into balance. (See Tony Robinsons email where he uses preps in liquid >manures frequently) Probably apply 2-4 weekly on market gardens and fruit >trees. >I havent tried Cosmic pipes, but I sure could have used them over this last >season, as we have had weeks of rain and it was impossble to put out 501 and >preps when we knew the plants needed it. We have some farmers using CP on >broadacre farms as well as stirred 500, which is great. Thanks for your spirit of open inquiry, Cheryl. By all means DO make the horn clay. Don't listen to Greg when he says it is the most important development in Biodynamics in its entire 75 years. Don't listen to me wshen I say the same thing either. And yes, I DO say the same thing. But, you know, it pays to be skeptical. So try it. Give it a sincere try, and use it in back-to-back applications of all of the preps in concert. Greg can give you some pointers. See what happens. Personally I don't much care for Greg's extreme way of saying biodynamics will disappear in 5 years unless they pick up on horn clay, and biodynamics is dead without horn clay. First of all, biodynamics hasn't really gotten off the ground yet. If you look at it from outside the movement it looks like that anyway. From within we congratulate ourselves on all our little accomplishments and think we're doing so great improving things once or twice over. But from the outside it doesn't look very impressive. So I don't look at it like it will disappear so much as it will get left in the dust. Secondly, the challenges biodynamics faces in healing the earth are growing by leaps and bounds now. Biodynamics as it has been is increasingly inadequate to the tasks facing us. We've needed to become much more effective or we will lose the race between life and death. So Greg has a very good point, even if his way of expressing it doesn't turn on everyone (including myself). In short, he's right as rain. He doesn't care to break the news gently is all. Cheers, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia > >Thanks and I look froward to hearing back. >Cheryl Kemp. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Hugh Lovel >>To: Greg Willis >>Cc: bdnow@envirolink.org >>Date: Friday, 9 April 1999 3:37 pm >>Subject: Re: Too Much! >> >> >>>> I am going to be absolutely blunt. There is not time left to be >>>>otherwise. It is my strongest belief that if we don't follow Dr. >>>>Steiner's admonition and get our BD acts together by the end of this >>>>century, there will be no biodynamics. It will atrophy to the point >>>>that it will be no more effective than "organic" agriculture. That is >>>>why I, and others like Hugh Lovel and Hugh Courtney, are working so hard >>>>to drag biodynamics out of the traditional mold and into the next >>>>century. That is why I champion Horn Clay so strongly. If we don't use >>>>Horn Clay now, BD will be dead in 5 years. >>>> You in the Southern Hemisphere will see the degradation before we in >>>>the Northern Hemisphere will see it. I have spoken to people in NZ who >>>>are already seeing it. Consider Cosmic Pipes. P.S. Yes, DO consider Cosmic Pipes. But be forewarned that without good guidance setting up a cosmic pipe it is easy to get things out of balance fast. It is very effective over large acreages, and it is cheap and doesn't use anything up. It must be thought of as an instrument that requires skilled use rather than a machine that you turn on and go off and ignore. HL >>>> >>>>Cheers, >>>> >>>>Greg Willis >>>> >>> >>>Dear Greg, Cheryl, BD Listers, etc., >>> >>>I've been thinking along similar lines for well over a dozen years. >>> >>>Long ago I extrapolated that at the past rate of progress (including >>>various exponential growth curve models) BD methods might finally sweep >the >>>world in two or three hundred years, and then only if they improved >>>markedly somewhere along the way. Does mankind and the Earth have that >kind >>>of time? Judging from the sort of comments Uncle Rudolf made in his >>>agriculture lectures about the dying condition of the Earth I suspect not. >>>Judging from the sort of wider and wider spread of disrupting and deadly >>>conditions I have seen in my life and the way the agencies of death have >>>consistantly outstripped the progress of remedies during my lifetime I'm >>>sure we don't have much time left at all. >>> >>>With this in mind along with a vision of the (as yet unrealized) potential >>>of biodynamic agriculture I've pursued a path of development aimed at >>>vastly multiplying the effectiveness of BD methods. And I've made some >>>progress, perhaps as much as 10% of what I envisioned. Since I envisioned >>>about a hundredfold increase in effectiveness this means I'm seeing at >>>least a tenfold increase in effectiveness in what I'm doing now as >compared >>>to the traditional BD methods I learned and most BDers practice today. >>> >>>Some of the milestones along the way have been (1) Harvey Lisle's insight >>>that we really miss the boat unless we apply ALL the BD preps in pretty >>>much as close to back-to-back a fashion as we can manage, (2) My own >>>development of Galen Hieronymus's Cosmic Pipe concept into a stationary, >>>self-driven etheric field broadcaster of all the BD preps for BOTH soil >AND >>>atmospheric ether fields, and (3) Greg Willis' work with horn clay which >>>provides that all-important missing middle prep that bridges between the >>>polarities of lime (earthly, inner planets) and silica (cosmic, outer >>>planets), and in my experience does what our skins do for us, puts a >>>protective membrane (kind of like an energy dome) over one's land. There >>>have been a number of other developments, improvements and refinements >>>including Hugh Courtney's discovery that sequential spraying ameliorates >>>extreme weather conditions, Peter Proctor's advocacy of flow forms for >>>potentization and also Courtney's development of homeopathic milk and >honey >>>sprays. But the first three listed above really stand out in my personal >>>experience. >>> >>>Harvey was ever so right that the farm must be thought of as a living >>>organism, an organic whole, and can't just do brain development for a year >>>and then switch channels to development of eyes and ears. >>> >>>Over the years I've come to understand the resistance I've encountered >>>about using a simple etheric field broadcasting instrument (a very simple >>>device) to apply the preps instead of motors, machinery, compaction, >>>physical damage, pollution, and enormous expenses involved in spraying >>>large acreages. The BD preps are VERY powerful and when applied >>>back-to-back each and every day their power scares the hell out of some >>>folks. >>> >>>Now with Greg Willis' horn clay, the "missing" BD prep, providing the >>>middle that ties the whole BD organism together I'm inclined to think >>>there's hope of turning the corner and getting on the inside track in this >>>race with death. >>> >>>There's a lot more that must be done to improve BD methods before we go >>>into the stretch. We've got a lot of experimenting to do yet to find the >>>most effective ways to use BD insights. It's important to set aside our >>>illusions, petty jealousies and personal ambitions whenever we find they >>>arise. There's no time left for those things. >>> >>>And just for starters it wouldn't happen to be an illusion that were not >in >>>a struggle with dark forces, or these dark forces haven't nearly won the >>>day, or that we can relax and let the forces of light pull our chestnuts >>>out of the fire, would it? >>> >>>I don't usually go in for spreading alarm, or for that matter casting >>>blame. Rather I like to face the problems I see and get right down to >>>business dealing with them--which is why I've done so much to develop the >>>use of the cosmic pipe in BD agriculture. I want to see the reclaimation >of >>>the Sahara desert get successfully underway in my lifetime. >>> >>>Best, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Hugh Lovel >>>Blairsville, Georgia >>> >>>"We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." >>>--Wendell Berry >>> >>> >> Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 12:46:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21766 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:46:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26201; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:33:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA25890 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp288.cy-net.net [208.21.195.97]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14580 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:35:47 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE85A0.45534820@FLYLO>; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:25:01 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE85A0.45534820@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Atlanta's pollen count /flowform solution? Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:24:56 -0500 Encoding: 32 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 628 Another thought is that cities may be more affected because of the wind current or lack of it. I used to be bothered by horrid sinus infections in Houston, but when we made the final move to the farm, I tossed away all the remedies, OTC medicines and haven't been bothered a whole lot since. (16 yrs ago) Our trees are spaced at their own idea of where to grow, not mine, and they are bearing pollen right now, but not in great yellow drifts as they seem to be having in more concentrated areas. At the Med Center I work with a lady who is terribly affected, lymph glands swollen, eyes and sinuses ache, etc. None of her prescription medicines are working, and she lives in fear of the great outdoors. If the hospital were able to incorporate flowform water source into their landscape design close to the entrance, I'd wonder if they could alleviate much of the pollen problems that people are experiencing. (would 'hanging out' close to the energetic water movement help move toxins from the body?) I know I'm reaching but wouldn't this be a wonderful way to introduce a great number of people to BD methods in general? martha -----Original Message----- From: Anita Graf (Staff) [SMTP:agraf@agecon.uga.edu] Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 6:37 AM To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring, reachi Here in Athens, GA we experienced the yellow blizzard too. Amazing! Being new to the area, I didn't know that it was unusual. As I swept up piles of polen, I wondered, "wouldn't this make a nice natural yellow pigment for paint?" The color really is quite beautiful and certainly long lasting! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 16:03:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA03705 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02915; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:50:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA02425 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:47:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B3FBA6@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:51:15 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 13 Apr 99 15:51:25 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 13 Apr 99 15:50:59 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:50:50 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: death of bd? and the meaning of life Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <00a301be858b$88dbb100$5f431ccb@bio> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <286149048BF@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 629 Hugh Lovel wrote: > What is much > harder to get people accustomed to is the idea that there is NO ONLY > SOLUTION, no magic that "if you only do this it will solve all the problems > of existence." That one is so deeply ingrained that mostly you can't dent > peoples' awareness more than the tiniest ding. Ahh, would that we could all be so dented! > There is also a very strong belief out there that the soil is what grows > the plant. Soil, soil, soil, everyone's focused on the soil. () Geez, I thought this would be a good thing. I mean, it's my understanding that for the last century, the warped idea has been that what grows plants is soluable ions and that soil is pretty much superflorous (to the point where people came up with the idea of hydroponics!). I say that if people are really focusing so much on soil, soil, soil, (which I'm not convinced is the case to a really meaningful degree) we oughtta all go out and celebrate. Feeding *soil* rather than plant skeletons is still a pretty radical idea in many circles (if it weren't, there'd be more emphasis on composting and mulching and less on chemical soups out where the BIG ag players are playing their game). > First of all, biodynamics hasn't really gotten off the ground yet. If you > look at it from outside the movement it looks like that anyway. From within > we congratulate ourselves on all our little accomplishments and think we're > doing so great improving things once or twice over. But from the outside it > doesn't look very impressive. Absolutely so. It certainly does not appear to be sweeping the world or the nation to anyone accept the most myopic of bd die-hards. Some people are just making the magnificent discovery that soil life is actually important to the well being of plants. Recognition of "atmosphere" may be still a long ways off. But evolution takes time. There would be no point in a life if it were possible to learn all the lessons on day one out of the womb, or even at any of the many milestones along the way in development. If we believe in reincarnation, then we have to say that not even an entire lifetime is enough to learn all the lessons of human incarnation. But who is to say that humanity is not progressing fast enough? Evolution happens as it happens, and our ONLY obligation is to fulfill our OWN evolutionary paths. (Oooo! I hear some of you racing for the key pads to flame me on this! Well, hear me out.) Just as I cannot do your evolutionary work for you, neither can I do it for humanity in general. The best I can hope for you is that God will use me as an instrument in you're learning, but that really is not my decision. The best we can do is lead by example and that (in my understanding of right living) means to rein in our attention that so easily scatters around the globe identifying and solving everyone else's problems and hone in on our own short comings. (Greg Willis writes:) > >>>> I am going to be absolutely blunt. There is not time left to > >>>> be > >>>>otherwise. It is my strongest belief that if we don't follow > >>>>Dr. Steiner's admonition and get our BD acts together by the end > >>>>of this century, there will be no biodynamics. It will atrophy.... Why all the panic? This sounds like a version of the end of the millenium fear-bandwagon, and I don't see how it's helpful. What I understood from Dr. Andrew Lorands beautiful post yesterday is that the real purpose in bd agriculture (quite distinct from the goals of "sutainable" or "organic" ag) is for personal redemption (and thus, in the end, the revitilazation of the earth), not to propegate a set of production tools. To paraphrase the Bible, if we gain the world (of bd production techniques) and lose our souls (the redemptive spirit of the work) what will it profit us? I just don't think there's any way we can force personal transformation and redemtion on the world. That will come when it comes, and in the meantime, I'll work on practicing that which I might otherwise rather spend time on preaching. If we agree that the "death" of the body is not the end of the soul, why should we be panicking and glamming on to the idea that the world as we know it, or the dream of a biodynamic world is about to end? I have no idea how I "square" with RS on this, but I think that constantly seeking the alarm button is just another elaborate ruse we use with ourselves in order to not pay attention at "home." There are some wonderful answers out there for anyone who wants to ask the questions. Meanwhile, the world as we know it WILL end as it does many times over because death is a necessary part of evolution. How do I know that the world of my waking experience is the only reality? How do I know that this planetary incarnation is the only one? I certainly don't! I can only imagine what other realities exist beyond this time and space, and I can only assume that my evolution as a soul will have a place to continue its lessons and journeys whether or not the incarnated entities on this version of earth reality blow it up with nuclear power or GMO it to death. It makes no sense to me to spend all my valuable time and energy crying "the sky is falling" when the most positive thing I could do is just heal my little piece of the sky within my reach and let you see my example if you want to. Since the rest of the sky is not in my grasp, I'll let God handle its falling. Anita, waxing philosophical From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 16:41:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA04591 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:41:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA10273; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:28:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from latina.latino.net.co (latina.latino.net.co [207.16.109.165]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09719 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:26:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 1 (acc14145.latino.web.co [206.114.24.145]) by latina.latino.net.co (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA30349 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:29:49 -0500 (GMT-0500) From: " bachmans" To: Subject: HELP unsuscribe Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:31:25 -0500 Message-ID: <01be85ec$99dc99e0$911872ce@1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009A_01BE85C2.B10691E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 630 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009A_01BE85C2.B10691E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been trying to unsuscribe without success for three weeks now. = I've written to this address and to listproc@envirolink.org writing = unsuscribe bdnow in capital letters as the messae but I have received = three times the following answer: "no request found in the body of the = message" Can any of you help me unsuscribe from the list? Thanks, Raul ------=_NextPart_000_009A_01BE85C2.B10691E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have been trying to unsuscribe = without success=20 for three weeks now. I've written to this address and to listproc@envirolink.org = writing=20 unsuscribe bdnow in capital letters as the messae but I have received = three=20 times the following answer: "no request found in the body of the=20 message" Can any of you help me unsuscribe from the list? Thanks,=20 Raul
------=_NextPart_000_009A_01BE85C2.B10691E0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 17:06:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA05194 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:06:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA14342; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:54:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14190 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:53:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp222.cy-net.net [208.21.195.31]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA19284 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:56:48 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE85C4.D0695200@FLYLO>; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:46:36 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE85C4.D0695200@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: HELP unsuscribe Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:42:24 -0500 Encoding: 15 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 631 run spellcheck, and try unsubscribe. -----Original Message----- From: bachmans [SMTP:abachman@latino.net.co] Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 3:31 PM To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: HELP unsuscribe << File: ATT00000.html >> I have been trying to unsuscribe without success for three weeks now. I've written to this address and to listproc@envirolink.org writing unsuscribe bdnow in capital letters as the messae but I have received three times the following answer: "no request found in the body of the message" Can any of you help me unsuscribe from the list? Thanks, Raul From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 19:19:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08075 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:19:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA04175; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:06:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03884 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.186.144] ("port 2049"@[148.233.186.144]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FA5005FL201YH@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:31:17 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:04:07 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed In-reply-to: <001201be8598$b2552400$cfac25cb@rsdwat> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 632 >Chromatographic Testing > >A. Steigbild -vertical cylinder of filter paper drawing liquid up from >dish. >B. Chromatogram- horizontal disc of filter paper. Liquid is drawn up by a >wick which is inserted in a small central hole in a disc and dips into a >dish below. Liquid then spreads horizontally and radially not vertically. >It is desirable to use sodium hydroxide in the test solution when making >chromatograms-not steilbilder. > >Basic Requirements >1. Substance must be brought into aqueous solution fatty materials e.g. >milk must be emulsified with NaOH. >2. Choice of suitable reagants > AgNO3 > AuCl4 (Gold Chloride) >3. High quality fine grained filter paper. > >Chromatograms- >Whatman filter paper No 1 Qualitative 15 cm circles and 1 roll of No >1Chromatography paper 2 cm wide > >Steigbilder - >Whatman filter paper No 1 >must be cut in such a way that the flow direction indicated on the pack is >maintained in the vertical cylinder > >Preperation of Test Material > >Veg material- Chop pulp in mortar and pestle. If juice does not cover >residual pulp add water until this is adchieved after further stirring. >Examine juice for viscosity. If too viscious make trial dilutions eg: >strips of filter paper waste. > >Soils >A 5 ml measure >Pour 50 ml 1.0-2.0 Sodium hydroxide (NaOH)solution. Leave flask to stand >41/2 hours swirling once per hour. >After third hour tilt flask to assist in settling sediment. >When ready to test carefully tilt the flask further and pour out enough >liquid to nearly fil a test tube. > >Compost >Pour in 150 ml of 1.0%NaOH >Remove test liquid with a dropper to avoid sediment > >Preparation of Test Papers >Cut test papers to size at least 7 days before use. Roll groups of up to >six and wrap in clean paper to retain their curvature. > >Daylight must be excluded during the period of testing and while papers are >still wet. Ordinary incandescent electric light appears to be harmless. > >Final Test Procedure >Set up glass dishes and run in 2-3ml of the solution. >In general the second liquid should rise twice as far as the first. >Tests should be left in the dishes until quite dry and then removed >unclipped and slipped into cellophane bags for protection. >Pin them to a suitable board exposed to indirect sunlight. >Remove papers and store away from light and moisture. > >Different Test for Different Samples >a. Steigbilder Extract first AgNO3 second >b. Steigbilder AgNO3 first Extract second >c. Chromatograms AgNO3 first Extract second > >a. Plant juices > Water soluable vitamins > Fruit juices > Herbal medicines > >b. Medicinal herbs and plants > Culinary > Water soluable vitamins, medicines > >c. Soils, composts, BD preps > Fruit juices > Vitamin preps > Herbal medicines > Animal products > Seeds and seed products. > >Robert Watson >Australia >rsdwat@fastinternet.net.au Hi Friends: Just curious, what do you look for in this tests ?, what are the controls ? what are the patterns one should look for ?, in short, what is the use of doing such a "primitive" chromatogram in comparison to HPLC, Gas C or using an ion exchange column ?. I recall a BD related reference about seeing "things" in the chromatogram, that is, patterns with a message of some sort. Or is it for checking for a "standard" pattern in a sample as a way to characterize the tested material ?. Regards Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 19:34:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08215 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:34:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA06606; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06096 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:19:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id hORYa15514 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:22:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:22:06 EDT Subject: Re: Too Much To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 633 May you have food and raiment A soft pillow for your head May you be forty years in heaven Before the devil knows you're dead" Greetings from Ireland Christne From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 19:51:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08448 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:51:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10500; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:38:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09207 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:33:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] ([208.210.143.17]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA29019 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:37:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <286149048BF@agecon.uga.edu> References: <00a301be858b$88dbb100$5f431ccb@bio> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1989 17:40:12 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: death of bd? and the meaning of life Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 634 Anita writes: >If we agree that the "death" of the body is not the end of the soul, >why should we be panicking and glamming on to the idea that the >world as we know it, or the dream of a biodynamic world is about to >end? I have no idea how I "square" with RS on this, but I think that >constantly seeking the alarm button is just another elaborate ruse we >use with ourselves in order to not pay attention at "home." There >are some wonderful answers out there for anyone who wants to ask the >questions. Meanwhile, the world as we know it WILL end as it does >many times over because death is a necessary part of evolution. How >do I know that the world of my waking experience is the only reality? >How do I know that this planetary incarnation is the only one? I >certainly don't! I can only imagine what other realities exist >beyond this time and space, and I can only assume that my evolution >as a soul will have a place to continue its lessons and journeys >whether or not the incarnated entities on this version of earth >reality blow it up with nuclear power or GMO it to death. It makes >no sense to me to spend all my valuable time and energy crying "the >sky is falling" when the most positive thing I could do is just heal >my little piece of the sky within my reach and let you see my example >if you want to. Since the rest of the sky is not in my grasp, I'll >let God handle its falling. Anita, I don't see where we should be panicked, or even that any of us are experiencing panic. But for my part I experience a sense of urgency. It's like a footrace. You run like it counts, win or lose. For your sake I hope the world of your waking experience is not your only reality. Certainly it is not for me. The places I go and things I do and have when out of body at night, Whew! As diverse as these are it is a wonder there is so much common ground between them and my waking consciousness. Nor is this my only experience with incarnation. I don't think of it as "only" imagining. It is REAL imagining and what imagination! Nor do I spend time crying, "The sky is falling!" I'm with you in healing my little piece. But I'll tackle bigger pieces too, and I'm not lacadasical about it either. My blood sings and I get up in the middle of the night some nights to write down things that have occurred to me. What gets me is hopelessness. Back when I was growing up with my brother I'd get fired up about doing something and he would drag his feet. Bummer. "You can't do it." he'd say. "It's impossible." "Sure it is if you give up before you even try." I'd respond. "But if we go about it like this. . ." and I'd lay out a plan. "Well, maybe. but it won't be easy." he'd say. Actually, he was one of the best people to work alongside if you could drag him up out of apathy. He could really do things! It was a joy the many times we accomplished the "impossible" together. One time we dug out a 40 foot cedar that was up against someone's house. Back then $50 was worth about $300 now. He came up with a couple hours worth of reasoning and opinions about how impossible it was to do this with just an axe, a pick and a shovel. It would fall on the house, the roots were too big, it was too close too the house, we'd never be able to haul the limbs out to the road, dah da, dah da, dah da. Once I finally got him into gear we did the whole job in 4 hours including dragging all the limbs out to the road and stacking them for city pick-up. I mean we dug out all the roots for six feet around, laid the tree down prettily with ropes just where we planned and filled the hole back in. We were both young and full of spunk so we gave it hell, of course. But it goes to show what can be done if hopelessness is overcome. That's what I mean about reclaiming the Sahara. Sure it may seem impossible. It IS impossible as long as we give up before we start. If we give it all we got, however, we're sure to succeed. If you ask yourself why I'm exhorting folks to get it in gear and go all out BD, is it because I'm in fear of the sky falling? Or is it because I see what an exciting challenge we can take up and I'd like to get people out of their apathy and hopelessness and into enthusiastic cooperation toward something really worthwhile. >From my point of view there's been enough of this using preps once a year and waiting until old age to try making horn clay. Let's see how much we can do rather than how little. Sincerely, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 19:51:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08456 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10594; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:38:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09273 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:33:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] ([208.210.143.17]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA29064 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:37:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <04cd01be85b3$8a301640$83d42fd1@windows98> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1989 18:11:36 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring, reaching a recordyesterday. The New York Times Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 635 >I wonder how much N and P are spread around in pollen? > >Frank---figgers when the allergy suffering is over, maybe a silver lining of >improved soil fertility may emerge.... Frank, A lot depends. Pollen remains undigested in the soil for centuries and centuries unless something (like earthworms or ants) eats it. So it may be a boon for those with earthworms, but for others it may be little help at all. Hugh Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 19:59:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08528 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:59:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12356; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:47:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA11822 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:44:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] ([208.210.143.17]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA00706 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <001201be8598$b2552400$cfac25cb@rsdwat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1989 18:26:43 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 636 > >Hi Friends: > >Just curious, what do you look for in this tests ?, what are the controls >? what are the patterns one should look for ?, in short, what is the use >of doing such a "primitive" chromatogram in comparison to HPLC, Gas C or >using an ion exchange column ?. > >I recall a BD related reference about seeing "things" in the chromatogram, >that is, patterns with a message of some sort. Or is it for checking for >a "standard" pattern in a sample as a way to characterize the tested >material ?. > >Regards > > >Guillermo Romero I. >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Dear Guillermo, Paper disc chromotography gives you a picture in the round, a holistic chromatogram. If you could get ahold of The Koliskos' book, AGRICULTURE OF TOMORROW you'd get a really good introduction to the subject--something I can hardly do in just a letter. I might say, however, that the degree of order (in just about anything) is a measure of how much life and vitality it has. Thus when you get a really blah, formless, amorphous chromatogram you can be sure there's no life force present. And if you get a beautifully ordered chromatogram with all kinds of forms and colours, you've got something really vitally alive. As you may be aware, different things travel through the filter paper at different speeds. As a rule nitrogen salts travel the fastest so if you see a band around the outside of the chromatogram it could well be nitrogen salts. There are many intracacies of reading chromatograms and I know only a few. Mostly this test is a good indication of how alive something is, and outside of that you may want to be an analytical chemist to know what the various colors and bands mean. Best, Hugh Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." --Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 13 21:35:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA09832 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 21:35:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA27761; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 21:22:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA27607 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 21:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.21]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 21:28:01 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 21:24:46 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: IMF takes $1 billion in two years from Africa as official report reveals five new reasons to Drop the Debt Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id VAA27608 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 637 >From Jubilee 2000 UK comes this important and disturbing update: http://www.jubilee2000uk.org/news/imf0904.html IMF takes $1 billion in two years from Africa as official report reveals five new reasons to Drop the Debt ---------------------------------------------------------- The growing scale and depth of the debt crisis in the world's poorest countries is revealed in the official annual report on global debt, published today by the World Bank. The figures and analysis in Global Development Finance 1999 show five key new developments, making debt cancellation more urgent than ever: 1. The IMF extracted a net $1 billion from Africa in 1997 and 1998, reversing the trend of the last five years. At the same time, it spent billions bailing out bankers in East Asian crisis economies 2. Developing countries paid back $13 for every $1 they received in grants in 1998, up from $9 in 1996 3. Commodity prices have plunged, crippling the poorest countries' ability to repay foreign debts 4. Grants to developing countries went down from $35 billion in 1991 to $23 billion in 1998 - including a $2.8 billion (11 per cent) fall in the last year 5. Despite borrowing less than they paid back in 1998, total debt in developing countries rose again - by $150 billion to a new total of almost $2.5 trillion. IMF takes $1 billion out of Africa in two years The tables buried in Global Development Finance show how the IMF's relationship with sub-Saharan Africa has changed dramatically in the last few years - with serious consequences. Between 1993 and 1995, there was a net transfer of funds from the IMF to Africa, as new resources outstripped repayments. In 1997 and 1998, this trend has been thrown dramatically into reverse, with a net transfer from Africa to the IMF adding up to more than $1 billion ($643 million in 1997 and $390 million in 1998). The switch in the flow of resources between the IMF and Africa coincides with the beginning of the series of bailouts for East Asian economies arranged and partly funded by the IMF. Despite the huge repayments to the IMF by African countries, total African debt has continued to rise (see below). Developing countries paid back $13 for every $1 they received in grants in 1998 The report shows that developing countries continue to pay far more to creditors in debt payments than they receive from them in grants - and the gap is increasing. As grants fell and debt service increased, developing countries paid nearly $13 in debt repayments for every $1 they received in grants in 1998 - up from $9 in 1996 and $12 in 1997. Even in Africa alone, where this ratio has always been much smaller, the gap between grants and debt payments is increasing. In 1998, sub-Saharan Africa paid $1.41 to creditors for every $1 received in grants - up from $1.36 in 1997 and $1.38 in 1996. Commodity prices have plunged The World Bank confirms that commodity prices have fallen heavily, affecting the poorest countries' ability to earn the foreign currency need to repay debts. Commodity prices overall lost 16 per cent of their value in 1998, continuing a longer-term trend. Metals and minerals prices ended the year 33 per cent down from their peak in August 1995, while food prices fell 21 per cent from their level in April 1996. No recovery is expected before 2000, and then is expected only to be slow. This fall in commodity prices is attributed to two factors. First, the crisis in East Asia has reduced world demand and forced crisis-hit countries to look to their own supply sources rather than importing from elsewhere. A more significant factor, though, is the long-term suppression of commodity prices. The report says that the greatest impact in reducing commodity prices has come from increased supply caused in particular by improved technology, better economic policies, and increased privatisation of production. Ironically these developments, which are so damaging to many heavily-indebted countries, are all specifically encouraged by World Bank and IMF-sponsored structural adjustment programmes. World trade and economic prospects in the wake of the East Asian crisis are also bleak for heavily-indebted poor countries. The report says that the crisis in emerging markets is likely to be deeper and more prolonged than earlier assessments had suggested with the growth forecast for developing countries revised downward to 1.5 per cent in 1999 - the lowest since 1982. Grants to developing countries went down from $35 billion in 1991 to $23 billion in 1998 Grants to developing countries have continued their historic fall, with a one-year drop of 11 per cent to $23 billion in 1998. This obviously further limits the funds available for spending on crucial needs in health, education and sanitation, and the effect of funds being diverted towards debt repayments is all the more severe. Despite borrowing less than they paid back in 1998, total debt in developing countries rose again The report shows that the classic debt trap is still ensnaring many poor countries in Africa and Latin America. During 1998, developing countries succeeded in paying back more in debt repayments than they took on in new loans. These negative net transfers on debt amounted to $16 billion. Despite this, total debts increased, from $2.32 trillion in 1997 to $2.47 trillion in 1998. This effect was felt in the key regions of sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America too. Latin American debts increased by 5 per cent to $736 billion, despite the region paying back $20 billion more than it borrowed in 1998. Similarly, Africa's debts increased by 3 per cent to $226 billion, despite African countries paying back $3.5 billion more than they borrowed. Jubilee 2000 comment This report comes hard on the heels of a series of proposals from the British, American, French, German and Canadian governments, all claiming to tackle the problem of unpayable debt comprehensively. It comes as the World Bank concludes the first part of its review of the Heavily Indebted Poor Countries' (HIPC) initiative. The message to all these creditors is clear; the recent flurry of thinking on debt may be welcome, but it does not go nearly far enough. The report presents new information about the scale of the debt crisis. Aid is falling. Commodity prices have plunged. The IMF has extracted a billion dollars in two years from Africa. Total debt continues to rise, despite ever-increasing payments. And the developing world now spends $13 on debt repayment for every $1 it receives in grants. Gordon Brown and his G8 colleagues will have to go back to the drawing board and recognise that what is needed now is not just a little more debt cancelled, or a few more countries included, or a slightly faster timetable adopted. They should accept the need for a major step, to set behind us once and for all the burden of unpayable debt as we enter the new millennium. This report should set alarm bells ringing in Washington, London, Bonn and Tokyo. If finance ministers and officials respond to this emergency call by radically upgrading their ambitions for a deal on debt at the Cologne G8 summit in June, this report will have served an important purpose. The scale of the challenge is clear. Are the G8 leaders up to it? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 01:46:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA13777 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:46:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA24848; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:27:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA24783 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:25:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.186.182] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.182]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FA50009XP29VW@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:49:27 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:54:01 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 References: <001201be8598$b2552400$cfac25cb@rsdwat> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id BAA24784 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 638 >> >>Hi Friends: >> >>Just curious, what do you look for in this tests ?, what are the controls >>? what are the patterns one should look for ?, in short, what is the use >>of doing such a "primitive" chromatogram in comparison to HPLC, Gas C or >>using an ion exchange column ?. >> >>I recall a BD related reference about seeing "things" in the chromatogram, >>that is, patterns with a message of some sort. Or is it for checking for >>a "standard" pattern in a sample as a way to characterize the tested >>material ?. >> >>Regards >> >> >>Guillermo Romero I. >>Comala, Colima, MEXICO >> > >Dear Guillermo, > >Paper disc chromotography gives you a picture in the round, a holistic >chromatogram. If you could get ahold of The Koliskos' book, AGRICULTURE OF >TOMORROW you'd get a really good introduction to the subject--something I >can hardly do in just a letter. I might say, however, that the degree of >order (in just about anything) is a measure of how much life and vitality >it has. Thus when you get a really blah, formless, amorphous chromatogram >you can be sure there's no life force present. And if you get a beautifully >ordered chromatogram with all kinds of forms and colours, you've got >something really vitally alive. As you may be aware, different things >travel through the filter paper at different speeds. As a rule nitrogen >salts travel the fastest so if you see a band around the outside of the >chromatogram it could well be nitrogen salts. There are many intracacies of >reading chromatograms and I know only a few. Mostly this test is a good >indication of how alive something is, and outside of that you may want to >be an analytical chemist to know what the various colors and bands mean. > >Best, >Hugh > >Hugh Lovel >Blairsville, Georgia > >"We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." >--Wendell Berry Thanks for your answer and your comments Hugh: I was imagining something of the sort. From and analytical, materialistic, point of view, and from your comments, I could say that what you get in a chromatogram in terms of shapes and colors, depends on the diversity and chemical nature of the substances and elements present in your sample material. So that if you get a lot a peaks and shapes from a sample, it is an indication that it has a lot of different thing there. Have you seen any BD reference to reading "messages" in the chromatogram figures ?, something like the shape of a leaf or a tree ?. Now if you want to see if something is alive, well the best test for that is the amount of "life" it can generate. Live matter it's the only one capable of generating new life, is'nt so ?. Radionics is also a good way, I understand, to test for aliveness and to see compatibilities between life and death matter, I am wrong here ? I'll try to get a hold of Kolisko's book, I have´nt read it, but a certainly respect their capacity to understand things that were way ahead of their time and their abilities to put scientific matters into a BD framework. Warm Greetings Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 01:50:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA13807 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA25397; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:36:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA25221 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:33:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.102.66.71] (pm3bky1-66-71.intrepid.net [206.102.66.71]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA04544; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:37:30 -0400 Message-Id: <199904140537.BAA04544@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: Re: Too Much Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 00:37:37 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 639 The Tibetan via Alice Bailey claims that radiation is the method of communication for the mineral kingdom. Perhaps the "revelation" of nuclear energy is the coming of age of that segment of creation -- they got tired of just being "rocks." Jeanne Mozier From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 01:50:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA13816 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:50:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA25428; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:36:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA25240 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:33:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.102.66.71] (pm3bky1-66-71.intrepid.net [206.102.66.71]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA04563; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:37:38 -0400 Message-Id: <199904140537.BAA04563@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: Re: death of bd? and the meaning of life Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 00:37:46 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 640 The purpose of life is hidden in the sign of Taurus. It is to infuse matter with spirit. Once matter is spiritualized it will then be transformed and no longer "matter" as we know it now. If we are to be part of the Divine Plan we must work at this spiritualization. There is NO PROMISE that Earth, or creation, shall succeed at its task so as the good nuns used to say -- we must work as if it all depends on work and pray as if it all depends on prayer. Jeanne Mozier From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 04:52:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA15606 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 04:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA04393; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 04:39:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA04231 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 04:36:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max18-9.stc.net [208.210.139.137]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA14707 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 04:40:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199904140537.BAA04563@loki.intrepid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1989 03:15:58 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: death of bd? and the meaning of life Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 641 >The purpose of life is hidden in the sign of Taurus. It is to infuse >matter with spirit. Once matter is spiritualized it will then be >transformed and no longer "matter" as we know it now. If we are to be >part of the Divine Plan we must work at this spiritualization. There is >NO PROMISE that Earth, or creation, shall succeed at its task so as the >good nuns used to say -- we must work as if it all depends on work and >pray as if it all depends on prayer. > >Jeanne Mozier Absolutely, Jeanne! Imagine as if it all depends on imagination, too. Warm regards, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 04:52:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA15614 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 04:52:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA04364; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 04:39:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA04223 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 04:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max18-9.stc.net [208.210.139.137]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA14700 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 04:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <001201be8598$b2552400$cfac25cb@rsdwat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1989 03:12:58 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id EAA04224 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 642 Guillermo wrote: > >Thanks for your answer and your comments Hugh: > >I was imagining something of the sort. From and analytical, >materialistic, point of view, and from your comments, I could say that >what you get in a chromatogram in terms of shapes and colors, depends on >the diversity and chemical nature of the substances and elements present >in your sample material. So that if you get a lot a peaks and shapes from >a sample, it is an indication that it has a lot of different thing there. Exactly. And you're right that those "peaks and shapes" can sometimes be very suggestive. For example, a chromatogram of some 505 (oak bark prep in an animal's skull) I made from red oak tree that was struck by lightning showed the most amazing, shooting peaks, quite regular all the way around the chromatogram. It was very beautiful, but definitely suggestive of the energy of being stuck by lightning. > >Have you seen any BD reference to reading "messages" in the chromatogram >figures ?, something like the shape of a leaf or a tree ?. > >Now if you want to see if something is alive, well the best test for that >is the amount of "life" it can generate. Live matter it's the only one >capable of generating new life, is'nt so ?. Radionics is also a good >way, I understand, to test for aliveness and to see compatibilities >between life and death matter, I am wrong here ? Radionics lacks the beauty of chromatography, but it is very effective and almost instantaneous in its readings. Plus it is more versatile insofar as it will show, as you say, the compatibilities between things and whether if, combined, they trend toward greater life or toward death. > >I'll try to get a hold of Kolisko's book, I have´nt read it, but a >certainly respect their capacity to understand things that were way ahead >of their time and their abilities to put scientific matters into a BD >framework. The Koliskos were so far ahead of those around them that they weren't properly appreciated. As I understand it Eugene died of a heart attack and Lilly, frustrated with the casual acceptance of her earth-shaking discoveries, ended up burning much of her research, unpublished. Imagine though. She climbed up and down a ladder into the earth (some kind of mine shaft?) at various hours of day and night setting out trays of supersaturated salt solutions to see how the crystalizing force worked in the earth at different seasons and times of the Moon. As a practical chemist I'm not surprised that she found salts crystalized into much bigger and lighter crystals at full moon, and much smaller denser crystals at new moon. But I'd never have guessed how much stronger the crystalizing force was deep within the earth during winter. As for her work with homeopathic potencies. Pretty amazing. Sprouting wheat seedlings and taking measurements of root and leaf with potencies up to 60x and repeating these in different years (with somewhat different results). Nowadays with radionics you can create all these potencies with geometric cards and get highly standardized potencies. But she was working with manual dilution and succussion. It's a lot of meticulous work. AGRICULTURE OF TOMORROW is certainly a book worth study. If you can find the first edition it has all the color plates of the chromatograms. Very beautiful. Keep up the good work. Vaya Amigo, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 09:09:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17761 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA22025; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:55:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21736 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:54:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B4747A@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 8:57:35 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 14 Apr 99 08:57:45 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 14 Apr 99 08:57:31 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:57:21 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: death of bd? and the meaning of life Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <286149048BF@agecon.uga.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <2973105365C@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 643 Hi Hugh! Well, I have to say that what I heard in the message of bd (and I presume the revitalization of the world) by the end of the century (next year?) sounded "gloom and doom" to me. Akin to the very hopelessness of which you mention in your letter. Perhaps I "heard" wrong. I think it can be tricky sometimes to know what you can do and what is not yours to do. Obviously your brother was wont to draw that line too close to home. When a task requires magnificent feats of strengh, courage, and will, it IS probably within your doing. But when it requires you to "change" somebody else's view of the world before they themselves are ready to change than it is not in your realm of doing. Personally, I don't feel it in my calling either to pit myself against such forces like the Serbian army (though I can practice brotherly love at home) or the entire military-industrial-poison-making complex (though I can choose to buy & grow organic, buy local, write letters when appropriate, and offer alternative ideas to others when given the chance). There are few people in the world like Fidel Castro, who somehow beat the Somosa army with only a rag tag group of followers, or a Martin Luther King Jr. who had the ability to mobilize millions and make fantastic changes. If it is your calling to do something really GRAND on that sort of a scale, than you will likely be compelled to do it no matter what anyone says. But most of us need to focus on doing smaller tasks closer to home, which though smaller are no less grand. You experienced bd farmers often mention how it takes decades to get the farm organism humming and even then there are still chanllenges. Yes, by all means, go out and practice bd with all the energy and enthusiasm you can muster (which you obviously do, Hugh, managing to maintain your own farm organism, write books, travel and lecture everywhere, and contribute to this list serve as well!). And let's work on our family organisms as well, and do the painful work of facing our own personal challenges and shadow sides. And let's work on our friendships and cultivating the organism of our spirit families. If after all that you still have time and energy left over to worry about everybody else, then you are just a far more energetic person than I!! Anita > Anita, > > I don't see where we should be panicked, or even that any of us are > experiencing panic. But for my part I experience a sense of urgency. It's > like a footrace. You run like it counts, win or lose. > > For your sake I hope the world of your waking experience is not your only > reality. Certainly it is not for me. The places I go and things I do and > have when out of body at night, Whew! As diverse as these are it is a > wonder there is so much common ground between them and my waking > consciousness. Nor is this my only experience with incarnation. I don't > think of it as "only" imagining. It is REAL imagining and what imagination! > > Nor do I spend time crying, "The sky is falling!" I'm with you in healing > my little piece. But I'll tackle bigger pieces too, and I'm not lacadasical > about it either. My blood sings and I get up in the middle of the night > some nights to write down things that have occurred to me. > > What gets me is hopelessness. Back when I was growing up with my brother > I'd get fired up about doing something and he would drag his feet. Bummer. > > "You can't do it." he'd say. "It's impossible." > "Sure it is if you give up before you even try." I'd respond. "But > if we go about it like this. . ." and I'd lay out a plan. > "Well, maybe. but it won't be easy." he'd say. > > Actually, he was one of the best people to work alongside if you could drag > him up out of apathy. He could really do things! It was a joy the many > times we accomplished the "impossible" together. > > One time we dug out a 40 foot cedar that was up against someone's house. > Back then $50 was worth about $300 now. He came up with a couple hours > worth of reasoning and opinions about how impossible it was to do this with > just an axe, a pick and a shovel. It would fall on the house, the roots > were too big, it was too close too the house, we'd never be able to haul > the limbs out to the road, dah da, dah da, dah da. Once I finally got him > into gear we did the whole job in 4 hours including dragging all the limbs > out to the road and stacking them for city pick-up. I mean we dug out all > the roots for six feet around, laid the tree down prettily with ropes just > where we planned and filled the hole back in. We were both young and full > of spunk so we gave it hell, of course. But it goes to show what can be > done if hopelessness is overcome. > > That's what I mean about reclaiming the Sahara. Sure it may seem > impossible. It IS impossible as long as we give up before we start. If we > give it all we got, however, we're sure to succeed. If you ask yourself why > I'm exhorting folks to get it in gear and go all out BD, is it because I'm > in fear of the sky falling? Or is it because I see what an exciting > challenge we can take up and I'd like to get people out of their apathy > and hopelessness and into enthusiastic cooperation toward something really > worthwhile. > > >From my point of view there's been enough of this using preps once a year > and waiting until old age to try making horn clay. Let's see how much we > can do rather than how little. > > Sincerely, > > > Hugh Lovel > Blairsville, Georgia > > "We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." > --Wendell Berry > > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 09:10:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17781 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:10:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA22390; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:58:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cougar.ssi.stratus.com (cougar.ssi.stratus.com [198.97.42.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA22195 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:57:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by cougar.ssi.stratus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA27148 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 07:59:17 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 07:59:16 -0400 (EDT) Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Charlie Hodgson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 644 On 13-Apr-89 Hugh Lovel wrote: > Mostly this test is a good > indication of how alive something is, and outside of that you may want to > be an analytical chemist to know what the various colors and bands mean.i Chromatography, from an analytical chemistry POV, is a method to separate the molecular components of a solution. The theory is that the heavier the atomic weight of the molecule, the slower it will travel up the paper (for paper chromatography). The net result is that the solution will separate, giving various bands up the paper. In order to use the results quantitatively, you would need a control to compare the results with. The position on the paper denotes the molecule, the ratio of the size of the bands is the percentage of each molecule present in the sample. Hope this helps. Charlie. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 10:36:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19324 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06005; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:24:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05787 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B48DC3@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:26:32 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 14 Apr 99 10:26:43 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 14 Apr 99 10:26:23 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:26:15 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <298AC480F0B@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 645 Just curious, but has chromatography been accepted or even looked at by conventional chemists? > On 13-Apr-89 Hugh Lovel wrote: > > Mostly this test is a good > > indication of how alive something is, and outside of that you may want to > > be an analytical chemist to know what the various colors and bands mean.i > > > Chromatography, from an analytical chemistry POV, is a method to > separate the molecular components of a solution. The theory is that > the heavier the atomic weight of the molecule, the slower it will > travel up the paper (for paper chromatography). The net result is > that the solution will separate, giving various bands up the paper. > > In order to use the results quantitatively, you would need a control > to compare the results with. The position on the paper denotes the > molecule, the ratio of the size of the bands is the percentage of > each molecule present in the sample. > > Hope this helps. > > Charlie. > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 10:59:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19891 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10296; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:46:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cougar.ssi.stratus.com (cougar.ssi.stratus.com [198.97.42.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09657 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:43:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by cougar.ssi.stratus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29740 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:45:12 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <298AC480F0B@agecon.uga.edu> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:45:12 -0400 (EDT) Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Charlie Hodgson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 646 On 14-Apr-99 Anita Graf (Staff) wrote: > Just curious, but has chromatography been accepted or even looked at > by conventional chemists? Traditional chromatography is taught in school and used on a regular basis. Paper chromatography is little used, since for their purposes there are better methods (thin layer, gas and high pressure liquid chromatography). Regardless of which method, the theory is the same. With respect to the more ethereal observations, i.e. vibrancy of life-force, I doubt I need to give you my opinion of what conventional chemists would think. Charlie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 11:11:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20120 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:11:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13062; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:59:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12750 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:58:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max11-8.stc.net [208.210.136.8]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA13124 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <298AC480F0B@agecon.uga.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1989 09:40:31 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 647 >Just curious, but has chromatography been accepted or even looked at >by conventional chemists? > Absolutely. We were all taught this kind of stuff in freshman chemistry major's chemistry (121) The modern predominant method is gas chromatography/mass spectrometer analysis, and can detect dioxins in parts per trillion. But the old paper chromatography is still a respected technique. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 12:14:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21830 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:14:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26273; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:02:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25443 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:58:32 -0400 (EDT) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id hDMa025416 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:01:31 EDT Subject: Re: Help with Chromatography needed To: BDnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 648 Don't forget to have a full laboratory analysis of your soil sample or test subject to match with your chromatograph. After a while you can get good at reading them. Also building a library on the technique. Color copying or photographing your chromatograms will preserve them since they fade with age. Regards, Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 13:30:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA23208 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12213; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:17:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12037 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:16:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B4C404@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:20:12 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 14 Apr 99 13:20:23 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 14 Apr 99 13:20:22 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:20:19 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <298AC480F0B@agecon.uga.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <29B92B31797@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 649 > >Just curious, but has chromatography been accepted or even looked at > >by conventional chemists? > > > > > Absolutely. We were all taught this kind of stuff in freshman chemistry > major's chemistry (121) The modern predominant method is gas > chromatography/mass spectrometer analysis, and can detect dioxins in parts > per trillion. But the old paper chromatography is still a respected > technique. > > Best, > > Hugh Lovel Oh, I see. Quite interesting. So you're saying that paper chromotography is the old version of a modern technology? As for beginning chem, all I can recall are negative and positive ions and that we had a discussion on thermodynamics. Guess I'm in need of a repeat! Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 13:35:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA23322 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13532; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:23:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13227 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:22:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B4C5C7@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:25:41 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 14 Apr 99 13:25:52 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 14 Apr 99 13:25:40 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:25:40 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <298AC480F0B@agecon.uga.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <29BA95B57B4@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 650 > With respect to the more ethereal observations, i.e. vibrancy of > life-force, I doubt I need to give you my opinion of what > conventional chemists would think. >Charlie Hmmm... how *would* they explain the differences in chromotography of water out of the tap vs the same water run through a flow form? -- That is, assuming the stuff I learned from Jennifer Greene (the anthro flow form Queen) is correct and that chromotographs are quite different. Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 14:49:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA26155 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:49:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07637; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06933 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904141649.MAA06933@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 19523 invoked from network); 14 Apr 1999 16:53:08 -0000 Received: from i48-31-25.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO DAVE) (216.26.60.89) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 1999 16:53:08 -0000 X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Chromotography/ Flowform pics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 651 Guillermo wrote: >Just curious, what do you look for in this tests ?, what are the controls ? what are the patterns one should look for ?, in short, what is the use of doing such a "primitive" chromatogram in comparison to HPLC, Gas C or using an ion exchange column ?. > >I recall a BD related reference about seeing "things" in the chromatogram, that is, patterns with a message of some sort. Or is it for checking for a "standard" pattern in a sample as a way to characterize the tested material I thought this question would come up. In my experience, doing the chromas is the easy part. The hard part is figuring out what they mean. A chemist would expect mixtures of compounds to be smoothly dispersed, sort of like a circular rainbow. Instead, we get radiative patterns, more like snowflakes. The degree of pattern indicates the amount of "formative forces" present, but I will be the first to admit that I don't know how to interpret them. The pictures in Kolisko's book are beautiful and instructive but don't help you distinguish. What is a "good" prep versus an inferior one? How much "dynamics" should one expect of a soil or plant sample? I wish I knew. I have scanned a series of pictures done under the direction of Pfeiffer, if you would like to see some examples. The files are .htm graphic pages to be viewed with a browser. They are self-extracting zipped files, click on them and they will extract themselves. Mac users will have to apply their own extraction program. Those on slow speed, rural phone systems take note, these are big files and will take some time to download. I will leave these files posted for an interim time, but not too long since they take up server space. For the chroma pictures, point your browser to ftp://public:download@ftp.ezsim.com/ezsim/chroma.exe This file is 1.5MB and will take several minutes to download. While we at it, there may also be interest in the flow form pictures I have offered around. For flow forms, point your browser to ftp://public:download@ftp.ezsim.com/ezsim/flow.exe The file is about 7.5M, it will take 6-7 minutes to download. ======================== David Robison Stellar Processes (503) 827-8336 voice and fax From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 15:18:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA26710 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05285; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cougar.ssi.stratus.com (cougar.ssi.stratus.com [198.97.42.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24683 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by cougar.ssi.stratus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA02468 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:16:25 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <29BA95B57B4@agecon.uga.edu> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Charlie Hodgson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 652 On 14-Apr-99 Anita Graf (Staff) wrote: > >> With respect to the more ethereal observations, i.e. vibrancy of >> life-force, I doubt I need to give you my opinion of what >> conventional chemists would think. > >>Charlie > > Hmmm... how *would* they explain the differences in chromotography of > water out of the tap vs the same water run through a flow form? > -- That is, assuming the stuff I learned from Jennifer Greene (the > anthro flow form Queen) is correct and that chromotographs are quite > different. I can't really comment on flow form - I've seen the term, and correct me if I'm wrong, that it has to do with re-vitalizing water by allowing it to run over natural structure, as opposed to pristine water, which has had all of it's memory erased.  I've been following the work of Dr. Jacques Benveniste on the 'Memory of Water'. His work revolves around the assumption that interactions, be it cellular or molecular, involve recognition of the items vibration and not the key/keyhole paradigmcurrently accepted ascorrect. He has reported being able to digitize a substance's vibration, transfer it as a file and then impress the vibration unto water, with this water now having the properties of the original. Ohh, your question. All I've heard is fraud in connection with Dr. Benveniste. In your example, they would say that the water was contaminated whilst going through the flow form. Charlie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 15:37:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA26155 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:49:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07637; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06933 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904141649.MAA06933@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 19523 invoked from network); 14 Apr 1999 16:53:08 -0000 Received: from i48-31-25.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO DAVE) (216.26.60.89) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 1999 16:53:08 -0000 X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Chromotography/ Flowform pics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 653 Guillermo wrote: >Just curious, what do you look for in this tests ?, what are the controls ? what are the patterns one should look for ?, in short, what is the use of doing such a "primitive" chromatogram in comparison to HPLC, Gas C or using an ion exchange column ?. > >I recall a BD related reference about seeing "things" in the chromatogram, that is, patterns with a message of some sort. Or is it for checking for a "standard" pattern in a sample as a way to characterize the tested material I thought this question would come up. In my experience, doing the chromas is the easy part. The hard part is figuring out what they mean. A chemist would expect mixtures of compounds to be smoothly dispersed, sort of like a circular rainbow. Instead, we get radiative patterns, more like snowflakes. The degree of pattern indicates the amount of "formative forces" present, but I will be the first to admit that I don't know how to interpret them. The pictures in Kolisko's book are beautiful and instructive but don't help you distinguish. What is a "good" prep versus an inferior one? How much "dynamics" should one expect of a soil or plant sample? I wish I knew. I have scanned a series of pictures done under the direction of Pfeiffer, if you would like to see some examples. The files are .htm graphic pages to be viewed with a browser. They are self-extracting zipped files, click on them and they will extract themselves. Mac users will have to apply their own extraction program. Those on slow speed, rural phone systems take note, these are big files and will take some time to download. I will leave these files posted for an interim time, but not too long since they take up server space. For the chroma pictures, point your browser to ftp://public:download@ftp.ezsim.com/ezsim/chroma.exe This file is 1.5MB and will take several minutes to download. While we at it, there may also be interest in the flow form pictures I have offered around. For flow forms, point your browser to ftp://public:download@ftp.ezsim.com/ezsim/flow.exe The file is about 7.5M, it will take 6-7 minutes to download. ======================== David Robison Stellar Processes (503) 827-8336 voice and fax From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 15:46:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA27565 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:46:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10987; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10813 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:33:15 -0400 (EDT) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id hZXKa19585 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:36:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:36:30 EDT Subject: German to English translation and identification please To: BDnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 654 Hello German speaking folks, I have some material by J. Voegele entitled "Anleitung zur Herstellung der Duengerpraeparate" issued by Forschungsribg fuer Biologish-Dynamishe Wirtschaftsweise. I can guess some of it but not all and who is J. Voegele? A BD farmer I assume. Regards, Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 16:12:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA28103 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:12:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15808; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15293 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:56:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B4F564@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:00:05 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 14 Apr 99 16:00:15 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 14 Apr 99 15:59:52 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:59:48 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <29BA95B57B4@agecon.uga.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <29E3B5B049F@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 655 > > I can't really comment on flow form - I've seen the term, and correct me > if I'm wrong, that it has to do with re-vitalizing water by allowing it > to run over natural structure, as opposed to pristine water, which has > had all of it's memory erased. You should be able to find info on flow forms in the archives of this list and it seems to me that there's at least one web page on them. I believe that it would be accurate to summarize that the purpose of a flow form is the re-vitalize water by running it over a MAN-made form that immitates nature and natural vortices (the emphasis on vortices corresponding with the purpose of stirring the preps....). Presumably, this could be done in "sterile" conditions and then the water tested for difference. This would be the interesting experiment, but I don't know if it's been done with the proper controls to ensure that the water was not "contaminated whilst going through the flow form." If you could do this and show a difference, then maybe you would have an interesting quandry for the scientific world. > I've been following the work of Dr. Jacques Benveniste on the 'Memory of > Water'. His work revolves around the assumption that interactions, be it > cellular or molecular, involve recognition of the items vibration and not > the key/keyhole paradigmcurrently accepted ascorrect. He has reported > being able to digitize a substance's vibration, transfer it as a file and > then impress the vibration unto water, with this water now having the > properties of the original. > > Ohh, your question. All I've heard is fraud in connection with Dr. > Benveniste. In your example, they would say that the water was > contaminated whilst going through the flow form. > > Charlie Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of loopy stuff going on masquarading as solid science. I don't think it's too much to ask that some of this stand up to scientific scrutiny at least at the most basic level. I am not the technician to do this kind of work, but I hope someboyd competent out there will work on and report back! Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 16:34:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA28400 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:34:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20343; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cougar.ssi.stratus.com (cougar.ssi.stratus.com [198.97.42.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20149 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:21:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by cougar.ssi.stratus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05418 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:22:52 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <29E3B5B049F@agecon.uga.edu> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:22:52 -0400 (EDT) Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Charlie Hodgson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 656 On 14-Apr-99 Anita Graf (Staff) wrote: > Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of loopy stuff going on masquarading as > solid science. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Dr. Benveniste. Others are. I believe his work will result in better understandings of biological processes, plus acceptance of his work would automatically bring things like the cosmic pipe and radionics into the 'realm of possibilities'. Charlie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 16:37:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA28400 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:34:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20343; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cougar.ssi.stratus.com (cougar.ssi.stratus.com [198.97.42.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20149 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:21:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by cougar.ssi.stratus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05418 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:22:52 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <29E3B5B049F@agecon.uga.edu> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:22:52 -0400 (EDT) Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Charlie Hodgson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 657 On 14-Apr-99 Anita Graf (Staff) wrote: > Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of loopy stuff going on masquarading as > solid science. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Dr. Benveniste. Others are. I believe his work will result in better understandings of biological processes, plus acceptance of his work would automatically bring things like the cosmic pipe and radionics into the 'realm of possibilities'. Charlie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 16:46:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA28655 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:46:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12431; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:56:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11869 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max11-8.stc.net [208.210.136.8]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA12565 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:57:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2973105365C@agecon.uga.edu> References: <286149048BF@agecon.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1989 09:36:11 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: death of bd? and the meaning of life Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 658 Anita writes: >I think it can be tricky sometimes to know what you can do and what >is not yours to do. You got that right. >Obviously your brother was wont to draw that >line too close to home. When a task requires magnificent feats of >strengh, courage, and will, it IS probably within your doing. But >when it requires you to "change" somebody else's view of the world >before they themselves are ready to change than it is not in your >realm of doing. Personally, I don't feel it in my calling either to >pit myself against such forces like the Serbian army (though I can >practice brotherly love at home) or the entire >military-industrial-poison-making complex (though I can choose to buy >& grow organic, buy local, write letters when appropriate, and offer >alternative ideas to others when given the chance). There are few >people in the world like Fidel Castro, who somehow beat the Somosa [sic: Batista] >army with only a rag tag group of followers, or a Martin Luther King >Jr. who had the ability to mobilize millions and make fantastic >changes. If it is your calling to do something really GRAND on that >sort of a scale, than you will likely be compelled to do it no matter >what anyone says. But most of us need to focus on doing smaller >tasks closer to home, which though smaller are no less grand. You >experienced bd farmers often mention how it takes decades to get the >farm organism humming and even then there are still chanllenges. >Yes, by all means, go out and practice bd with all the energy and >enthusiasm you can muster (which you obviously do, Hugh, managing to >maintain your own farm organism, write books, travel and lecture >everywhere, and contribute to this list serve as well!). And let's >work on our family organisms as well, and do the painful work of >facing our own personal challenges and shadow sides. And let's work >on our friendships and cultivating the organism of our spirit >families. You're so right. None of these things should be neglected. If after all that you still have time and energy left over >to worry about everybody else, then you are just a far more energetic >person than I!! >Anita Judging from your e-mail traffic you're pretty energetic yourself. I only do this stuff in my "spare" time. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 16:59:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA28914 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25683; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:47:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com [207.46.181.18]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA25320 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:45:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer - 153.37.31.210 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:49:04 -0700 Message-ID: <000201be86b7$e2a2a680$d21f2599@oemcomputer> From: "Dr. Andrew Lorand" To: Subject: Re: German to English translation and identification please Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:10:05 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 659 Immanuel Voegele was one of the very earliest pioneers of biodynamics. A farmer and anthroposophist. He helped Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and Rudolf Steiner with the first preparations before anything was made public. Attended the Agriculture Course. Was instrumental in managing several farms and did lots of research, especially with cereeals. Was involved in medical and curative work as well. Was very beloved by all who met him. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 17:31:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA29608 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:31:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01683; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:19:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01137 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:16:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:16:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904142116.RAA01137@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 25972 invoked from network); 14 Apr 1999 21:20:13 -0000 Received: from i48-01-25.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO DAVE) (216.26.2.25) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 14 Apr 1999 21:20:13 -0000 X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Re: Help with Chromotography needed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 660 At 01:25 PM 4/14/99 EST5EDT, ANita wrote: >Hmmm... how *would* they explain the differences in chromotography of >water out of the tap vs the same water run through a flow form? > -- That is, assuming the stuff I learned from Jennifer Greene (the >anthro flow form Queen) is correct and that chromotographs are quite >different. I think you're referring to the "sensitive drop" tests that Jennifer does. These reveal some sort of dynamics around the surface tension of the water droplet. No colored compounds involved. ======================== David Robison Stellar Processes (503) 827-8336 voice and fax From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 19:43:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02755 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:43:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24347; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24064 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:26:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max19-82.stc.net [208.210.143.81]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA14660 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <29BA95B57B4@agecon.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1989 18:09:22 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Jaques Benveniste Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 661 Charlie Hodgson wrote: >I can't really comment on flow form - I've seen the term, and correct me >if I'm wrong, that it has to do with re-vitalizing water by allowing it >to run over natural structure, as opposed to pristine water, which has >had all of it's memory erased. > >I've been following the work of Dr. Jacques Benveniste on the 'Memory of >Water'. His work revolves around the assumption that interactions, be it >cellular or molecular, involve recognition of the items vibration and not >the key/keyhole paradigmcurrently accepted ascorrect. He has reported >being able to digitize a substance's vibration, transfer it as a file and >then impress the vibration unto water, with this water now having the >properties of the original. > >Ohh, your question. All I've heard is fraud in connection with Dr. >Benveniste. In your example, they would say that the water was >contaminated whilst going through the flow form. > >Charlie Dear Charlie, If you've heard of fraud in connection with Dr. Benveniste, consider its sources. A few years back Dr. Benveniste was experimenting with a homeopathic flu remedy and became famous in a minor way for it. However, there is a science hate magazine called SKEPTICAL INQUIRER (which I used to subscribe to) that makes it's business out of "debunking" such things as homeopathy, radionics, astrology and much more. No doubt they will at some point debunk Biodynamics--if they haven't already. They are good for running whole articles about something like homeopathy and making a big point about the serial dilutions while never mentioning the potentization that must take place at every stage of the dilution process. Another favorite trick is to compare tropical and sidereal astrology, both of which are valid though one is roughly 30 degrees different from the other. They make a big thing about how studies show that there is a valid statistical correlation of two systems of astrology 30 degrees apart and seem to imply you could go either direction around the zodiac and still find this correlation. They never mention the fact that one system is sidereal and one tropical nor do they discuss the differences between the two. Their job is to smear rather than to report in full. So this is who we're dealing with re. Benveniste. One of their chief hatchet men that debunks ghosts, out of body experiences, and, yes, homeopathy is Randi the magician. Like the Air Force department that investigated flying saucer sightings Randi goes whereever there is publicity for something that might threaten the status quo and he puts on a propaganda debunking. He did this gratuitously with Benveniste. Perhaps Dr. Benveniste didn't see him coming, but then maybe Randi didn't believe there was anything to Benveniste's claims either. To the conventional thinker homeopathy isn't exactly self-explanatory. So in the first trial Benveniste diluted and potentized his remedy alongside a control that was just water, and surprise! Benveniste's remedy cured the flu. So Randi got a rematch and another and another and each time, no surprise, Benveniste's remedy DIDN'T work (for whatever reason) and Randi sure had the press handy--to the extent that SCIENCE NEWS picked it up. Reading this in SCIENCE NEWS I (Hugh Lovel) wrote them a letter and pointed out that debunking at the hands of a stage magician was hardly credible, especially considering his long history of having an agenda in these things, and besides Benveniste's first run with his remedy was in his favor. SCIENCE NEWS printed my letter, and even if this didn't hit all the newspapers The Fabulous Randi had a bit of egg on his face. So now you have the inside story on the "fraud" connected with Dr. Benveniste. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 21:12:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA03747 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:12:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA09035; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:58:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f229.hotmail.com [209.185.130.167]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA08588 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:55:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 46591 invoked by uid 0); 15 Apr 1999 00:59:05 -0000 Message-ID: <19990415005905.46590.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.144.179.140 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:59:04 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.144.179.140] From: "Connie Gilbert" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Fire Ant Problem--PLEASE HELP! (fwd) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:59:04 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 662 >hi, i am from s fla and living in a somewhat communal student house which >changes habitants nearly each semester, where over the years people have >lived "natually" (compost, wild yard growth) but not responsibly and today >we, the present residents, are stuck with a huge pest problem! When I lived in FL we used to pour a little gasoline on the fire ant nests. I'm not sure if anyone wants to do this, but it did work if you kept at it. The problem is they have multiple exits to their nest and just move. The ants do seem to keep the cinch bugs down. What kind of termites do you have? Subterranian are the most common, they do not require tenting because they live in the ground during the day but must go underground for moisture (I have heard). You can recognize them by the mud tunnels on the pilings under the house, exterminators pour poison into the ground to kill them. The other kind live in the wood, so you have to tent the house. I would like a safe way to get rid of the critters myself, one of my barns has subterranian termites. Lynnaea _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 22:05:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA04508 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:05:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04084; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:32:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03434 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 28571 invoked from network); 15 Apr 1999 00:33:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (209.205.2.19) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 15 Apr 1999 00:33:37 -0000 Message-ID: <06f001be86d7$150b3820$83d42fd1@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring,reaching a recordyesterday. The New York Times Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:29:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 663 So are you saying that pollen is microbe-proof absent a macrophage's intervention? I would think Georgia would have a full complement of worms, ants, millipedes, etc, though.... Does this mean that if you put a lot of pollen in a compost pile the pollen would remain uneaten? Thanks for your answer, Frank -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Lovel To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 7:42 PM Subject: Re: Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring,reaching a recordyesterday. The New York Times >>I wonder how much N and P are spread around in pollen? >> >>Frank---figgers when the allergy suffering is over, maybe a silver lining of >>improved soil fertility may emerge.... > >Frank, > >A lot depends. Pollen remains undigested in the soil for centuries and >centuries unless something (like earthworms or ants) eats it. So it may be >a boon for those with earthworms, but for others it may be little help at >all. > >Hugh > >Hugh Lovel >Blairsville, Georgia > >"We cannot be free if our food sources are controlled by someone else." >--Wendell Berry > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 22:17:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA04624 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:17:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA18665; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:04:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18404 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:01:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.27]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:08:28 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:05:09 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Writing About Trauma Is Seen to Ease Illness in Some-NYTimes Message-ID: <1CF757DADFEBBCB585256754000B54A3.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 664 By ERICA GOODE ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Writing about trauma eases disease in some, a study shows. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ In a powerful demonstration of how intimately mind and body are linked, researchers have shown that writing about traumatic experiences measurably improves the health of some patients suffering from chronic asthma or rheumatoid arthritis. Asthma patients who wrote about "the most stressful event they had ever undergone" for 20 minutes on three consecutive days, the researchers found, showed significant improvements in lung function four months later, compared with patients who spent the same amount of time writing about neutral topics. Similarly, four months after finishing the writing exercise, rheumatoid arthritis patients showed less overall severity in their disease. The study, which appears in Wednesday's issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association, is notable both for its size and its scientific rigor. It included 107 patients with mild to moderately severe asthma or rheumatoid arthritis, and the health of the patients was monitored using objective physiological measures. Doctors who took part in the study did not know whether or not the patients they were examining had received the writing "treatment." The findings add to increasing evidence that attention to patients' psychological needs can play an important role in the treatment of many physical illnesses, a view shared by many doctors and nurses but one that has only recently begun to draw the attention of the medical establishment. In an editorial accompanying the journal report, Dr. David Spiegel, professor and associate chairman of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Stanford University, wrote, "We have been closet Cartesians in modern medicine, treating the mind as though it were reactive to but otherwise disconnected from disease in the body." The patients in the "treatment" group were instructed to write down their "deepest thoughts and feelings" about the traumatic experience, while control subjects wrote about their plans for the day. Subjects in both groups were instructed to write continuously for 20 minutes. "This is not an easy task," said Dr. Joshua Smyth, an assistant professor of psychology at North Dakota State University and the lead author of the study. "The time goes very quickly and you feel there's a lot more to say." The patients who wrote about traumatic experiences became very involved in the task, Smyth said. Some cried or showed other signs of emotional distress while writing. Few chose to write about their illnesses. Instead, most wrote about the death of a loved one, problems in a close relationship or disturbing events in childhood. A few wrote of witnessing or being involved in a disastrous incident like a train wreck or an automobile accident. The researchers found that of the 70 patients who wrote about traumatic events, 47.1 percent showed significant improvement in their health at the end of four months, 48.6 percent showed no change and 4.3 percent got worse. In the control group, 24.3 percent showed improvement, 54.1 percent showed no change and 21.6 percent got worse. Smyth, who conducted the research with colleagues while at the State University of New York at Stony Brook School of Medicine, said the results were meaningful not only because significantly more patients who wrote about stressful experiences improved but also because many patients whose conditions might have been expected to worsen instead showed no change. Why writing about traumatic experiences works remains unclear, Smyth said. Nor is it known how long-lasting the improvement is, or what factors make it more likely that an individual will improve. But Smyth and others suspect that the writing task may be effective because it lets patients synthesize and make sense of their experiences. Like psychotherapy, Smyth said, the writing allows patients to alter the way they think about an event, giving it order and structure. This process, he noted, is very different from the intrusive and upsetting rumination that often follows traumatic events, a process that has been shown to have physiological effects, among them increases in heart rate and in the levels of stress hormones. Previous work by other researchers has shown that in healthy subjects the writing exercise can reduce visits to doctors, improve subjective well-being and increase some indicators of immune-system functioning. The new study is the first to test the effects on medical conditions of the writing exercise, which was developed by Dr. James Pennebaker, a psychologist at the University of Texas at Austin, and his colleagues. Spiegel, author of the journal's editorial, said he was surprised "by the vigor of the biomedical outcome" in the new study, "given the truly minimalist intervention." But he said it was increasingly clear that the way patients responded to being sick often affected the course of their illnesses. For some patients, he said, illness may trigger associations to past traumatic events that were beyond their control, causing the body to respond "as if you're being assaulted rather than just being sick." For example, he said, Holocaust survivors who develop cancer sometimes find that the disease revives the feelings of helplessness, loss of control and physical intrusion they experienced earlier in their lives. The new study underlines the role of stress in both asthma and rheumatoid arthritis and alerts doctors to their patients' emotional needs. But Smyth cautioned against generalizing the findings too broadly. "I really do believe that it's premature to advocate this as a part of therapy," Smyth said. Dr. Mary Klinnert, an associate faculty member in pediatrics at the National Jewish Medical and Research Center in Denver, who studies the relationship of stress to the onset of asthma, said she welcomed the findings because they confirmed her clinical observations. "It's exciting that someone could document it," Klinnert said. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 22:19:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA04671 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:19:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA19055; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18656 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:03:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bio (kmidc67-68.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.68]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA00645; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:00:10 +1000 Message-ID: <004e01be86e3$9242c4a0$44431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: "bridget freeman" , "nick scott perry" , "Morgan Kurrajong" , "Margaret Kemp" , "Leigh Davison" , "Jill Cranny" , "helen proud" , , "Camilla Nova & Phil Sedgman" , "Brendan Moran" , "Betty Khoo" , "Alan Johnstone" Subject: Off: Fw: [jabiluka] Mirrar request: Please Fax Australian Government Now Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:35:59 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 665 Thought you all might be interested in helping out here- Thanks, Cheryl Kemp. -----Original Message----- From: Midkiff, Jen To: 'Cheryl Kemp [We-link]' Date: Wednesday, 14 April 1999 4:13 pm Subject: FW: [jabiluka] Mirrar request: Please Fax Australian Government Now >Cheryl, > >You may like to send this though your networks. I wonder if it should go to >We-link? > >Jen > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Karl-Erik Paasonen [SMTP:K.Paasonen@mailbox.uq.edu.au] >> Sent: Wednesday, 14 April 1999 15:27 >> To: Brett Kuskopf; cafnec@internetnorth.com.au; gecko@onthenet.com.au; >> Pam Jones; Jason John; mcgmail@mackay.net.au; Michael Petter; >> brisbane@wilderness.org.au; Monica Muurlink; scec@universal.net.au; >> trec@telstra.easymail.com.au; wpsq@rocknet.net.au; ccc@networx.com.au; >> npaqld@bit.net.au; wbbcc@bigpond.com >> Subject: [jabiluka] Mirrar request: Please Fax Australian Government >> Now >> >> Folks: on Thursday the Australian government is due to hand down its >> response to the World Heritage decision on Kakadu National Park, a >> decision >> based on the destructive effects of a Jabiluka uranium mine. >> >> Here's a message from the Mirrar, via John Hallam, who is an amazing >> anti-uranium campaigner at Friends of the Earth in Sydney. >> >> Please help by faxing as this email requests, and by passing this request >> on to anyone you think might be willing to fax too. >> >> karl-erik >> >> >> >John Hallam >> >Friends of the Earth Sydney, >> >Suite 15, >> >1st Floor, 104 Bathurst Street, >> >Sydney, NSW, 2000. >> > >> >Fax(61)(2)9283-2005 ph(61)(2)9283-2006. >> > >> >nonukes@foesyd.org.au http://homepages.tig.com.au/~foesyd >> > >> >(Please make all inquiries to the Gundjehmi Aboriginal Corporation on >> >mirrar@topend.com.au) >> > >> >Dear people, >> > >> >The Traditional Owners and Custodians of the Jabiluka land, the Mirrar >> >People, have reluctantly been forced to call on the wider public >> worldwide >> >to assist in their long- running fight to protect the sacred sites near >> >the proposed Jabiluka uranium mine. >> > >> >You can help by faxing the following numbers of Australian authorities, >> and >> >asking That all construction operations at the Jabiluka site be >> immediately >> >stopped. The UNESCO World Heritage Committee last year asked that >> >construction be stopped. The Australian government has chosen to ignore >> >this. >> > >> >You should ask the Australian government to immediately implement the >> >UNESCO WHC recommendation that construction cease. >> > >> >Senator Robert Hill, Minister for the Environment >> >61-2-6273-6101. >> > >> >John Howard, Prime Minister:61-2-6273-4100 >> > >> >Chief Minister, Northern Territory 61-8-8999-6670, 61-8-8981-1621. >> > >> >Then write to the World Heritage Centre of UNESCO in Paris, noting that >> the >> >Boyweg/Almudj sacred site complex is in immediate danger, and asking that >> >representations be made immediately to the Australian government, and >> that >> >Kakadu be listed as 'in Danger'. >> > >> >The fax number of the World Heritage centre in Paris is:+33-1-456-85570. >> > >> >The chairperson of the World heritage Committee is His Excellency, >> >Ambassador Koichiro Matsuura, the Japanese ambassador to Paris. His >> number >> >is: >> >33-1-42-27-50-81. >> > >> >Correspondence to Matsuura should be respectful and to the point. >> > >> >US groups may also wish to fax the US Secretary of the interior, Bruce >> >Babbitt, whose number is: >> >202-208-5048. >> > >> >You should note that the executive director of the Gundjehmi Aboriginal >> >Corporation, Jacqui Katona will be seeing him on April 20th, and should >> ask >> >him to treat what she says with the utmost seriousness, and to instruct >> the >> >US representative on the WHC both to vote for Kakadu to be placed on the >> >'in Danger list, and to actively lobby for the same. >> > >> >STATEMENT BY SENIOR TRADITIONAL OWNERS AND CUSTODIANS RE THE >> BOYWEG-ALMUDJ >> >SACRED SITE COMPLEX >> > >> >At meetings held on April 7, 12, and 13, all the traditional Owners and >> >Custodians of the jabiluka area agreed to the following statements with >> >regard to the Boyweg-Almudj Sacred Site Complex: >> > >> >1)The Boyweg-Almudj Sacred Site Complex (which includes the Boyweg- >> Almudj >> >site, the Boyweg- Bagaloi site, the dreaming track between these two >> sites, >> >and other sites of significance) is a sacred and dangerous area which >> >should not be disturbed on the surface or underground. >> > >> >2)The sacred sites within and associated with the Boyweg-Almudj sacred >> site >> >complex have existed for untold generations and their integrity is >> >essential to the survival of Aboriginal culture in present and future >> >generations. >> > >> >3)The access tunnel being constructed for the proposed Jabiluka uranium >> >mine is now in the immediate vicinity of the Boyweg-Almudj Sacred Site >> >Complex, and must stop immediately in order to avoid desecration of >> sacred >> >sites, with catastrophic consequences for local Aboriginal people. >> > >> >4)Assertions made by the Northern Land Council in the 1982 mining >> agreement >> >that there are no sacred sites in the area of the Jabiluka mine site are >> >not correct. >> > >> >5)Such assertions were made by the Northern Land Council without >> consulting >> >with senior key custodians for the Jabiluka area. >> > >> >6)In particular, the JUNGAI, or Primary Custodian, for the Jabiluka area >> >has informed the Northern Land Council mining companies, and other >> >officials on many occasions that the sacred sites within the >> Boyweg-Almudj >> >sacred site complex should not be disturbed. >> > >> >7)That the Senior Traditional Owner, who 'consented' to the 1982 >> agreement >> >did so under duress and later informed senior custodians that the area >> >should not be disturbed because of dangers associated with sacred sites. >> > >> >8)There are a number of burial sites in the area of the Jabiluka mine >> site, >> >which remain unknown to non - aboriginal people. >> > >> >9)The Senior Custodians and traditional Owners who have attended and/or >> >been identified at the meetings of Apr 7,12, and 13th are the only >> >Aboriginal people who are permitted under Aboriginal law to speak about >> >sacred sites on the Jabiluka land, and have spoken with one voice about >> the >> >need to protect the Boyweg-Almudj sacred site complex. >> > >> >10)The senior Traditional owners and custodians for the Jabiluka land >> call >> >on local Aboriginal organisations, the Northern Land Council, the >> >Australian Government and all other concerned citizens and organisations >> to >> >support our urgent demand to protect sacred sites within and associated >> >with the Boyweg-Almudj sacred site complex. >> > >> >SOME BACKGROUND >> > >> >1)The Boyweg- Almudj sacred site complex is on the Mirrar peoples land in >> >the Kakadu region. Aspects of the site complex are in the immediate >> >vicinity of the proposed Jabiluka uranium mine operations. The site >> exists >> >both on the surface and below ground. >> > >> >2)The site complex has been recognised by Aboriginal people since time >> >immemorial. it was first identified by non- aboriginals in 1976-78 >> during >> >nomination for national estate listing. It was identified again during >> the >> >land claim process of 1979-80. It was identified by UNESCO as integral to >> >the World Heritage values of Kakadu in 1998. >> > >> >3)The mining company knew of the site complex in 1982, and threatened to >> >scuttle the Traditional Owners land claim if it was recognised. >> > >> >The current company recognised the site in 1998 in a deed poll, but >> agreed >> >only to minimise surface damage. Jabiluka is an underground mine. >> > >> >4)The mining company and the government assured the traditional Owners >> that >> >a sacred site study would be completed before the start of construction. >> >This study has not even started, and construction has been going on for >> >nine months. Numerous pleas by the traditional Owners to the Minister for >> >Environment and Heritage have been ignored. >> > >> >5)The mine tunnel is due to reach the boundary of the site in early May >> 1999. >> > >> >If the sacred sites in the complex are desecrated by the tunnel, local >> >Aboriginals believe that catastrophe, illness, and death will result. >> > >> >The UNESCO World heritage Committee last December, voted 20-1 for mining >> to >> >stop. The government has ignored this. >> > >> >The Mirrar are considering a range of legal and statutory protection >> >mechanisms to prevent the destruction of their sacred sites. >> > >> >------ Archive - http://www.issaries.com.au/lists/jabiluka/index/ >> -------- >> >Help: email "jabiluka-request@issaries.com.au" with "help" as Subject. >> The >> list >> >is at "jabiluka@issaries.com.au". Digest: email "jabiluka-d-request" with >> >> >"subscribe" as the subject. Issaries Pty Ltd hosts mailing lists for >> private >> >& public purposes. Views expressed are not necessarily those of >> Issaries. >> > >> > >> > >> Karl-Erik Paasonen >> Jabiluka Action Group (Qld) >> >> K.Paasonen@mailbox.uq.edu.au >> >> Phone: +61 7 3844 4679 >> >> JAG (Qld) phone: +61 7 3846 5793 >> fax: +61 7 3846 4791 > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 22:58:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA05069 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24032; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:44:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA23883 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max4-20.stc.net [208.210.132.148]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA13802 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:46:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <06f001be86d7$150b3820$83d42fd1@windows98> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1989 21:24:04 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring,reaching a recordyesterday. The New York Times Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 666 Frank Teuton writes: > >So are you saying that pollen is microbe-proof absent a macrophage's >intervention? > >I would think Georgia would have a full complement of worms, ants, >millipedes, etc, though.... > >Does this mean that if you put a lot of pollen in a compost pile the pollen >would remain uneaten? > >Thanks for your answer, Frank, What I am saying is that no matter how much NPK is tied up in the pollen only as much as gets digested is available for the following organisms. Never does it ALL get digested, but where the ecology is weak very little may be. I've gardened in Atlanta and my first compost pile sat for 6 months with no earthworms, despite BD preps, until I brought them in. There's earthworms in Atlanta, but not everywhere, and not necessarily a lot. My last Atlanta garden was in Little Five Points at a former washateria parking lot. The compost pile preceeded the garden once again, but, surprise, there were earthworms that showed up. The parking lot was REALLY hard, but in two years the beds could be forked with a pitchfork and were really good soil. Goes to show what you can do. There I only put on the preps with the Cosmic Pipe, kind of as a test to see if the pipe alone could get the preps out well. It did very well, especially considering the nature of that soil. And the flavor of things growing there was very exciting. You should have tasted the dill or the cherry tomatoes. Now it will be a different project, as the lease ran out on the parking lot. Ah, well! I don't doubt that after getting the earthworm population up in the parking lot we got a lot of fertility out of the pollen. We'd never have gotten it before the earthworms, however. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 14 23:10:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA05251 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:10:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25377; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:57:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24956 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:53:57 -0400 (EDT) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA11241 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:57:04 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:57:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md17-14.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.142) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma011196; Wed Apr 14 21:56:29 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <1999414225844441@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: death of bd? and the meaning of life X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 667 >> There is also a very strong belief out there that the soil is what grows >> the plant. Soil, soil, soil, everyone's focused on the soil. () > Feeding >*soil* rather than plant skeletons is still a pretty radical idea in >many circles (if it weren't, there'd be more emphasis on composting >and mulching and less on chemical soups out where the BIG ag players >are playing their game). > Exactly, so how do "we" expect to speak of cosmic and spirit influences on plants when many see soil only as something that holds a plant up? Remember, A WHOLE LOT OF FOLKS ARE SCARED OF REAL SPIRIT IN THIS WORLD. Think about it. How connected to spirit are the masses... cell phone in one hand, Big Crap Mac in the other driving 75 mph, calling it the American Dream come true? And we want them to understand that there are gnomes in gardens? If you find a way, let me know! >> First of all, biodynamics hasn't really gotten off the ground yet. But from the outside it >> doesn't look very impressive. > >Absolutely so. >It certainly does not appear to be sweeping the world or the nation >to anyone accept the most myopic of bd die-hards. Well, as an outsider/newcomer to BD here's my story, hoping it'll shed light for y'all. In 1996 I sought to work at Genesis Farms, having only a hint that BD existed (!), but on the gut instinct that I needed to learn to grow food. Financially it would not have worked for me. In 1997 this scenario repeated and again in 1998. I was intrigued but clueless about the cosmic aspects. I wound up on an organic farm, starting in April 98. I'm in my second year here. In 1998 I got a bit more of a whiff of BD, but very little. I was told by someone who attended a BD conference that "BDers were way too serious," too European in the obsession for precision (a comment I hardly took at face value; it's one way BDers are perceived, however). Granted, I didn't actively seek to learn more, partly because I was too swamped with the new lifestyle of farming, partly because...? that's my life path. So, a year on a farm, immersed in its energy, contemplating the magic and mystery of it all, really in touch with life energies like never before in my life (I"m 31), just this spring I began seeking on the Net more about BD/Steiner, found a good bit, and liked what I found. All this to say: a) you get into things when your ready for them; b) BD is not necessarily visible or accessible, and if it weren't for the Net, I'd probably be no better informed than I was a few months ago. BD is not at your local bookstore; BD books are barely found in ag/seed catalogs, and even then none are Steiner. So, from the outside world, BD really appears distant, and perhaps even like a secret cult. >fast enough? Evolution happens as it happens, and our ONLY >obligation is to fulfill our OWN evolutionary paths. Exactly. It took three tries and three years for me to just begin to get a taste for BD, moreover, to be of the consciousness that would have a few tools to begin to understand it. Aside, I bought Stella Natura thinking it would teach me some things, and boy, if you don't know it already, that calandar ain't gonna help! So, think of all the organic home gardeners buying Stella Natura, going "Whoa, this is weird and I don't get it," and never looking to BD again! >(Greg Willis writes:) >> >>>> I am going to be absolutely blunt. There is not time left to >> >>>> be >> >>>>otherwise. "There's no time to hurry." Dan Hemmenway, permaculturist >What I understood from Dr. Andrew Lorands beautiful post yesterday is >that the real purpose in bd agriculture (quite distinct from the >goals of "sutainable" or "organic" ag) is for personal redemption Getting mine just fine on this organic farm (with the full belief that it exists for that purpose, and that the head farmer is there to facilitate that process (tho' he doesn't quite see it)). >many times over because death is a necessary part of evolution. How >do I know that the world of my waking experience is the only reality? "I just know that you're gonna be free when your living in a world of your own reality. What's true for you ain't true for me." Francis Dunnery, musician >How do I know that this planetary incarnation is the only one? It's not. You could be a politician. I for one am a Playlian, from Playlia, a planet which is all about the freedom to Play in life. >Anita, waxing philosophical > John, waxing cosmic surfboard Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD Remember DDT? The agriculture chemical that was banned because it was killing off the bald eagles (and everything else)? Well, we still eat DDT on imported produce and food products. Moreover, GATT allows for over 50% higher residue rates than the US government (as if ANY residue of DDT is "acceptible!"). Food is power... are you in control of yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 15 02:44:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA08427 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 02:44:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA12833; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 02:29:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.cyberhighway.net (smtp1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.33]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA12777 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 02:28:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904150628.CAA12777@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 11981 invoked from network); 15 Apr 1999 00:32:21 -0600 Received: from ts2-47.llj.cyberhighway.net (HELO ?209.161.18.198?) (209.161.18.198) by smtp1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 15 Apr 1999 00:32:21 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 00:32:18 -0600 Subject: Re: Study ? whats happehing? From: "Pam DeTray" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3006981138_636995_MIME_Part" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 668 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3006981138_636995_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hugh and all, Yes, we did get bogged down in the study, and from what I can tell, more than one person had computer problems this winter--I was without for almost two months. But I think we all agreed the study would be more of a flowing thing than a straight-line approach, especially after early unsuccessful attempts to keep it "organized." I hope others have found, as I have, that growth can't be measured by the quality of posts to the forum. While I was down, I did realize the truth of Andrew Lorand's post last fall about the other reading required to understand the Lecture course, and so I have backtracked, another reason I haven't posted much. ------------------------------------------------------- The books recommended by Andrew, with his reasons: How to Know Higher Worlds, Rudolf Steiner. Explains the path of spirituality Steiner is suggesting. Theosophy, Steiner. Explains the spiritual nature of human and Earthly life from Steiner's perspective. Without these, there is little hope of making a study course anything but a superficial discussion. Most importantly, without a read on these two books, one cannot really understand and work with the underlying concepts of biodynamics. Culture and Horticulture: a Philosophy of Gardening, Wolf Storl. For complete novices to biodynamics. Although 417 pages, this little paperback reads quickly, easily and cleanly. It provides a good, if simple overview of both spiritual and practical issues in biodynamics. It has lots of diagrams and pictures and makes many complex issues accessible. Fundamentals of Therapy, Steiner and Wegman. If we take the farm individuality concept seriously, we soon discover that we need to focus on farm health much as if we were anthroposophical doctors. The book is also not too hard to read, not very long-- but only for those who have already read the above and digested Anthroposophy a bit. However, it really helps put Steiner's ideas for agriculture into a context of spiritual health, which is very appealing and practical. -------------------------------- Now I understand better why misgivings about the feasibility of a study in this format were expressed last year, when we first decided to go with this. In my enthusiasm, I thought the study would fit perfectly in amongst the practical advice and creative thinking offered in this forum. However, one of my concerns was that, due to the nature of a mailing list, we would be constantly stopping to answer questions of people just coming in. Now I see how good that is, as it supplies a sort of review. And in the email milieu, it isn't just good, it's necessary, as posts aren't always carefully read or remembered. When you combine that with the all too frequent imperfection of human expression, there are many opportunities for misunderstanding. But as the old saying goes, when life gives you lemons, make lemonade. This is not a perfect forum for a traditional study, but until we find something better, we need to take a magnanimous attitude and give it our best effort, trusting the quality and quantity of learning is not always truly reflected by the posts, but will be reflected in the new acres coming into biodynamic care as a result. If the result of our learning goes into the earth instead of back here in the form of posts, that can't be too bad, can it? On the other hand, I do appreciate the wisdom and advice offered here by the more experienced hands who have been so generous in posting. You've all been most kind about answering even the dumbest of my dumb questions. When I feel I have something of value to share, believe me, I will. Pam DeTray psdetray@cyberhighway.net ---------- From: Hugh Lovel To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Study ? whats happehing? Date: Fri, Apr 9, 1999, 9:19 PM >Hmmm, I joined after the last posting on the study. Can anyone fill me >in on what book it is you are studying? I would like to learn, does >anyone have some of the old posts? >Lynnaea Dear Lynnaea, We sure have lagged with the study currently. Partly that is a sign that everyone is too busy for this project, but partly it is a sign that we have bogged down over some misunderstood territory. What we were studying was Rudlof Steiner's eight lecture course on AGRICULTURE, the Creeger/Gardner translation. A while back, after being away nearly all winter, I composed a brief summary of our progress to date. It's a bit inadequate, but I think it will get you started. You may purchase the book from the BD Association (ask Allan for the address) and try your hand at reading it. There's a lot there, but not a lot of guidance with unfamiliar concepts. I've tried to give some assistance there. Here's my summary: Dear Study Circle, I've been away since December, had serious e-mail trouble, lost my files and had to learn a new program. Sorry. First, please let me introduce some prefatory material to explain what Steiner talks about as ether, or life force. This ether interpenetrates substance, just as the astrality interpenetrates ether, and so on. We should keep in mind that for those in the audience at Koberwitz when Steiner delivered this course of lectures, Steiner had already spent some years explaining what he meant by such terms as ether, astral, etc. There is no explanation of these terms in the agriculture course. Moreover, the dictionary is no help. If we are to understand these lectures we start out by defining these terms. Here is some background on ether: >>From: Rambler >>Subject: Study ? whats happehing? >>Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 21:18:37 +1200 >> >>Dear Study circle What has happened to our studing. Hav'nt seen any >>discussion for alooooooong time. my notes says that we are up to L3.2 >>page 56 and there is still 220 pages to go. >>Hugh LOvel said that Peter Procter said that we have only 10 years left >>to teach tthe rest of the world about Biodynamics? >>Time to mve on Me thinks> It would be nice to finish this study before >>the new millenium >>The last study posts were Feb 28 Mar 1. >>Cheers >>Tony Robinson --MS_Mac_OE_3006981138_636995_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: Study ? whats happehing? Hugh and all,

    Yes, we did get bogged down in the study, and from = what I can tell, more than one person had computer problems this winter--I w= as without for almost two months. But I think we all agreed the study would = be more of a flowing thing than a straight-line approach, especially after e= arly unsuccessful attempts to keep it "organized." I hope others h= ave found, as I have, that growth can't be measured by the quality of posts = to the forum.
    While I was down, I did realize the truth of Andrew= Lorand's post last fall about the other reading required to understand the = Lecture course, and so I have backtracked, another reason I haven't posted m= uch.

-------------------------------------------------------
The books recommended by Andrew, with his reasons:
  1. How to Know Higher Worlds, Rudolf Steiner. Explains the path= of spirituality Steiner is suggesting.
  2. Theosophy, Steiner.  Explains the spiritual nature of human= and Earthly life from Steiner's perspective. Without these, there is little= hope of making a study course anything but a superficial discussion. Most i= mportantly, without a read on these two books, one cannot really understand = and work with the underlying concepts of biodynamics.
  3. Culture and Horticulture: a Philosophy of Gardening, Wolf Storl.= For complete novices to biodynamics. Although 417 pages, this little paperb= ack reads quickly, easily and cleanly. It provides a good, if simple overvie= w of both spiritual and practical issues in biodynamics. It has lots of diag= rams and pictures and makes many complex issues accessible.
  4. Fundamentals of Therapy, Steiner and Wegman. If we take the farm= individuality concept seriously, we soon discover that we need to focus on = farm health much as if we were anthroposophical doctors. The book is also no= t too hard to read, not very long-- but only for those who have already read= the above and digested Anthroposophy a bit. However, it really helps put St= einer's ideas for agriculture into a context of spiritual health, which is v= ery appealing and practical.
--------------------------------

    Now I understand better why misgivings about the fe= asibility of a study in this format were expressed last year, when we first = decided to go with this. In my enthusiasm, I thought the study would fit per= fectly in amongst the practical advice and creative thinking offered in this= forum.
    However, one of my concerns was that, due to the na= ture of a mailing list, we would be constantly stopping to answer questions = of people just coming in. Now I see how good that is, as it supplies a sort = of review. And in the email milieu, it isn't just good, it's necessary, as p= osts aren't always carefully read or remembered. When you combine that with = the all too frequent imperfection of human expression, there are many opport= unities for misunderstanding.
    But as the old saying goes, when life gives you lem= ons, make lemonade. This is not a perfect forum for a traditional study, but= until we find something better, we need to take a magnanimous attitude and = give it our best effort, trusting the quality and quantity of learning is no= t always truly reflected by the posts, but will be reflected in the new acre= s coming into biodynamic care as a result. If the result of our learning goe= s into the earth instead of back here in the form of posts, that can't be to= o bad, can it?
    On the other hand, I do appreciate the wisdom and a= dvice offered here by the more experienced hands who have been so generous i= n posting. You've all been most kind about answering even the dumbest of my = dumb questions. When I feel I have something of value to share, believe me, = I will.

Pam DeTray
psdetray@cyberhighway.net

----------
From: Hugh Lovel <uai@stc.net> To: bdnow@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Study ? whats happehing?
Date: Fri, Apr 9, 1999, 9:19 PM


>Hmmm, I joined after the last posting on the study. Can= anyone fill me
>in on what book it is you are studying? I would like to learn, does
>anyone have some of the old posts?
>Lynnaea


Dear Lynnaea,

We sure have lagged with the study currently. Partly that is a sign that everyone is too busy for this project, but partly it is a sign that we have=
bogged down over some misunderstood territory.

What we were studying was Rudlof Steiner's eight lecture course on
AGRICULTURE, the Creeger/Gardner translation. A while back, after being
away nearly all winter, I composed a brief summary of our progress to date.=
It's a bit inadequate, but I think it will get you started. You may
purchase the book from the BD Association (ask Allan for the address) and try your hand at reading it. There's a lot there, but not a lot of guidance=
with unfamiliar concepts. I've tried to give some assistance there.

Here's my summary:

Dear Study Circle,

I've been away since December, had serious e-mail trouble, lost my files and had to learn a new program. Sorry.

First, please let me introduce some prefatory material to explain what
Steiner talks about as ether, or life force. This ether interpenetrates
substance, just as the astrality interpenetrates ether, and so on. We
should keep in mind that for those in the audience at Koberwitz when
Steiner delivered this course of lectures, Steiner had already spent some years explaining what he meant by such terms as ether, astral, etc. There is no explanation of these terms in the agriculture course. Moreover, the dictionary is no help. If we are to understand these lectures we start out<= BR> by defining these terms. Here is some background on ether:


>>From: Rambler <ramblerkirk@xtra.co.nz>
>>Subject: Study ? whats happehing?
>>Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 21:18:37 +1200
>>
>>Dear Study circle What has happened to our studing. Hav'nt seen any=
>>discussion for alooooooong time. my notes says that we are up to L3= .2
>>page 56 and there is still 220 pages to go.
>>Hugh LOvel said that Peter Procter said that we have only 10 years = left
>>to teach tthe rest of the world about Biodynamics?
>>Time to mve on Me thinks> It would be nice to finish this study = before
>>the new millenium
>>The last study posts were Feb 28 Mar 1.
>>Cheers
>>Tony Robinson
--MS_Mac_OE_3006981138_636995_MIME_Part-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 15 04:55:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA09250 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 04:55:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA18349; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 04:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA18223 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 04:41:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max4-31.stc.net [208.210.132.159]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA00620 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 04:45:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1CF757DADFEBBCB585256754000B54A3.0000000000000000@webcity> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1989 22:41:35 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF: Writing About Trauma Is Seen to Ease Illness in Some-NYTimes Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 669 >From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US >Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:05:09 -0400 >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: OFF: Writing About Trauma Is Seen to Ease Illness in Some-NYTimes >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org > >By ERICA GOODE >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Writing about trauma eases disease in some, a study shows. >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >In a powerful demonstration of how intimately mind and body are linked, >researchers have shown that writing about traumatic experiences measurably >improves the health of some patients suffering from chronic asthma or >rheumatoid arthritis. Jane, Really most of the data you presented, and more power to you for presenting it, it's old hat to someone like myself who 24 years ago was on the cutting edge of this. Forgive me for going into BD farming, but our biofeedback work back in the '70s has hardly come to light in the mainstream even yet. Actually I'm more in the fore now than I might have been as a proponent of biofeedback. (Not that that's any consideration to me.) But the link between mind and body health is ever so important. I can only hope that in a decade or so I can get back to my biofeedback research after having set BD farming on it's tracks. I want to see BD go. It is the bridge between the will and the imagination, I haven't any doubt. On the one hand are the pot smokers sitting on their sofas dreaming grand dreams in the midst of decay. On the other are the construction workers smoking their cigarettes and hammering down according to plans, and ripping the earth open, exhausting her. There's precious little middle, and biodynamic horn clay will help enormously in this regard, but mostly folks have to hear of BD in the first place. Let's see what develops. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 15 05:07:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA09700 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 05:07:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA18888; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 04:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA18841 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 04:55:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max4-31.stc.net [208.210.132.159]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA00849 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 04:58:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1999414225844441@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1989 03:37:36 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: death of bd? and the meaning of life Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 670 > >Happy Gardening, > >John Edward Verin >Senior Apprentice >Ecosystem Farm >Accokeek, MD > >Remember DDT? The agriculture chemical that was banned because it was >killing off the bald eagles (and everything else)? >Well, we still eat DDT on imported produce and food products. Moreover, >GATT allows for over 50% higher residue rates than the US government (as >if ANY residue of DDT is "acceptible!"). > >Food is power... are you in control of yours? Beanman, There's someone named Sharon Carson down in the Delmar peninsula who is a good BD resource. Not a big operation, but a good understanding of things. She's not on the internet, but is responsible for my thriving valerian patch, and she does good seeds. Keep your eye peeled for her. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 15 06:23:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA10338 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 06:23:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA22405; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 06:09:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA22304 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 06:07:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max6-1.stc.net [208.210.133.129]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA02327 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 06:11:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199904150628.CAA12777@envirolink.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1989 04:17:15 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Study ? whats happehing? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 671 Dear Pam, Study Circle , et. al., Well, the studies of Rudolf Steiner's lectures on agriculture HAVE languished after only the third lecture. No big surprise, these lectures are reallly deep, and we were approaching this with the wrong assumptions to believe we would get the meat out in a few internet conversations. There's a lot--so much!--there. Basically what is contained in the Agriculture Lectures is a different world view. From this world view, if understood, things look a good bit differently, even though application of powdered limestone may go on to low pH soils again and again just as before. Certainly, though, there's a different way of thinking about what it means. Lecture Two is a major derailment for those studying BD. Some of it came up in our study circle, thanks to Glen Atkenson of New Zealand. More power to this guy! One of the troubles of biodynamic agriculture is finding someone who is actually doing it. Glen, despite critics, is doing BD on a small acreage and advising others of larger holdings. Glen has helped out on our study circle quite a bit, including pointing out the serious problems with lecture two, which I won't enumerate for the moment, having done so and expecting again to so do. So we got bogged down. This means various misunderstoods regarding the material overwhelmed us. My best suggestion is that we start over on the introduction to the course and then part one, and catch up from there. We've got the best chance this way. Otherwise we can take my summary of lecture two and start Q ing and A ing. Or however else you want to do this. It is VERY worth doing, but difficult, which is why I advise starting anew with more modest expectations. The result is going to be anything but modest. When all minds are properly blown there will be a whole new way of thinking going on out there. But in the interim. . . . best, Hugh and all, > > Yes, we did get bogged down in the study, and from what I can tell, >more than one person had computer problems this winter--I was without for >almost two months. But I think we all agreed the study would be more of a >flowing thing than a straight-line approach, especially after early >unsuccessful attempts to keep it "organized." I hope others have found, as >I have, that growth can't be measured by the quality of posts to the forum. > While I was down, I did realize the truth of Andrew Lorand's post >last fall about the other reading required to understand the Lecture >course, and so I have backtracked, another reason I haven't posted much. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > The books recommended by Andrew, with his reasons: > > >1. How to Know Higher Worlds, Rudolf Steiner. Explains the path of >spirituality Steiner is suggesting. 2. Theosophy, Steiner. Explains the >spiritual nature of human and Earthly life from Steiner's perspective. >Without these, there is little hope of making a study course anything but >a superficial discussion. Most importantly, without a read on these two >books, one cannot really understand and work with the underlying concepts >of biodynamics. 3. Culture and Horticulture: a Philosophy of Gardening, >Wolf Storl. For complete novices to biodynamics. Although 417 pages, this >little paperback reads quickly, easily and cleanly. It provides a good, if >simple overview of both spiritual and practical issues in biodynamics. It >has lots of diagrams and pictures and makes many complex issues >accessible. 4. Fundamentals of Therapy, Steiner and Wegman. If we take the >farm individuality concept seriously, we soon discover that we need to >focus on farm health much as if we were anthroposophical doctors. The book >is also not too hard to read, not very long-- but only for those who have >already read the above and digested Anthroposophy a bit. However, it >really helps put Steiner's ideas for agriculture into a context of >spiritual health, which is very appealing and practical. > > >-------------------------------- > > Now I understand better why misgivings about the feasibility of a >study in this format were expressed last year, when we first decided to go >with this. In my enthusiasm, I thought the study would fit perfectly in >amongst the practical advice and creative thinking offered in this forum. > However, one of my concerns was that, due to the nature of a mailing >list, we would be constantly stopping to answer questions of people just >coming in. Now I see how good that is, as it supplies a sort of review. >And in the email milieu, it isn't just good, it's necessary, as posts >aren't always carefully read or remembered. When you combine that with the >all too frequent imperfection of human expression, there are many >opportunities for misunderstanding. > But as the old saying goes, when life gives you lemons, make >lemonade. This is not a perfect forum for a traditional study, but until >we find something better, we need to take a magnanimous attitude and give >it our best effort, trusting the quality and quantity of learning is not >always truly reflected by the posts, but will be reflected in the new >acres coming into biodynamic care as a result. If the result of our >learning goes into the earth instead of back here in the form of posts, >that can't be too bad, can it? > On the other hand, I do appreciate the wisdom and advice offered here >by the more experienced hands who have been so generous in posting. You've >all been most kind about answering even the dumbest of my dumb questions. >When I feel I have something of value to share, believe me, I will. > > Pam DeTray > psdetray@cyberhighway.net > > ---------- > From: Hugh Lovel > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Subject: Re: Study ? whats happehing? > Date: Fri, Apr 9, 1999, 9:19 PM > > > > >>Hmmm, I joined after the last posting on the study. Can anyone fill me > >>in on what book it is you are studying? I would like to learn, does > >>anyone have some of the old posts? > >>Lynnaea > > > > > >Dear Lynnaea, > > > >We sure have lagged with the study currently. Partly that is a sign that > >everyone is too busy for this project, but partly it is a sign that we have > >bogged down over some misunderstood territory. > > > >What we were studying was Rudlof Steiner's eight lecture course on > >AGRICULTURE, the Creeger/Gardner translation. A while back, after being > >away nearly all winter, I composed a brief summary of our progress to date. > >It's a bit inadequate, but I think it will get you started. You may > >purchase the book from the BD Association (ask Allan for the address) and > >try your hand at reading it. There's a lot there, but not a lot of guidance > >with unfamiliar concepts. I've tried to give some assistance there. > > > >Here's my summary: > > > >Dear Study Circle, > > > >I've been away since December, had serious e-mail trouble, lost my files > >and had to learn a new program. Sorry. > > > >First, please let me introduce some prefatory material to explain what > >Steiner talks about as ether, or life force. This ether interpenetrates > >substance, just as the astrality interpenetrates ether, and so on. We > >should keep in mind that for those in the audience at Koberwitz when > >Steiner delivered this course of lectures, Steiner had already spent some > >years explaining what he meant by such terms as ether, astral, etc. There > >is no explanation of these terms in the agriculture course. Moreover, the > >dictionary is no help. If we are to understand these lectures we start out > >by defining these terms. Here is some background on ether: > > > > > >>>From: Rambler > >>>Subject: Study ? whats happehing? > >>>Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 21:18:37 +1200 > >>> > >>>Dear Study circle What has happened to our studing. Hav'nt seen any > >>>discussion for alooooooong time. my notes says that we are up to L3.2 > >>>page 56 and there is still 220 pages to go. > >>>Hugh LOvel said that Peter Procter said that we have only 10 years left > >>>to teach tthe rest of the world about Biodynamics? > >>>Time to mve on Me thinks> It would be nice to finish this study before > >>>the new millenium > >>>The last study posts were Feb 28 Mar 1. > >>>Cheers > >>>Tony Robinson > > Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 15 08:53:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA12031 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:53:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01345; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:39:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01209 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:38:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B56ED7@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 8:41:57 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 15 Apr 99 08:42:08 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 15 Apr 99 08:41:39 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:41:36 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: death of bd? and the meaning of life Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <2973105365C@agecon.uga.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <2AEEE393B62@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 672 > [sic: Batista] Oh, how embarassing! Thank you for that correction, Hugh! > Judging from your e-mail traffic you're pretty energetic yourself. I >only do this stuff in my "spare" time. Right, which makes you all the more amazing. I'm in a strange position of being able to do this in my "regular" time (just not enough demand of me in this job). It scares me sometimes, but I know it won't last forever and try to just accept it as a gift from the universe in the meantime. It's a wonderful treat for me to be able to be such a cyber chatter box. Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 15 09:04:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12257 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:04:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02768; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02348 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:48:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 22224 invoked from network); 15 Apr 1999 12:52:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (204.151.170.199) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 15 Apr 1999 12:52:11 -0000 Message-ID: <075f01be873e$43426760$83d42fd1@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring,reachinga recordyesterday. The New York Times Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:47:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 673 Hugh responded: >What I am saying is that no matter how much NPK is tied up in the pollen >only as much as gets digested is available for the following organisms. >Never does it ALL get digested, but where the ecology is weak very little >may be. I've gardened in Atlanta and my first compost pile sat for 6 months >with no earthworms, despite BD preps, until I brought them in. There's >earthworms in Atlanta, but not everywhere, and not necessarily a lot. My >last Atlanta garden was in Little Five Points at a former washateria >parking lot. The compost pile preceeded the garden once again, but, >surprise, there were earthworms that showed up. The parking lot was REALLY >hard, but in two years the beds could be forked with a pitchfork and were >really good soil. Goes to show what you can do. There I only put on the >preps with the Cosmic Pipe, kind of as a test to see if the pipe alone >could get the preps out well. It did very well, especially considering the >nature of that soil. And the flavor of things growing there was very >exciting. You should have tasted the dill or the cherry tomatoes. Now it >will be a different project, as the lease ran out on the parking lot. Ah, >well! I don't doubt that after getting the earthworm population up in the >parking lot we got a lot of fertility out of the pollen. We'd never have >gotten it before the earthworms, however. Yes, earthworms are amazing. One of the seminal quotes from this year's Stella Natura offers the earthworm as the next best thing to cattle as the heart of a farm organism; somewhat by accident, I have found the worms I released here in my compost piles in Montreal to be steadfast laborers for good in the compost, although there were other worms present in the land before....so I at least have both Eisenia fetida and Lumbricus terrestris, and likely others....and millipedes, ants, pseudoscorpions, springtails, etc... I am curious about the Cosmic Pipe. Can it be set up in a small space, such as a 1,000 sq ft garden area? Frank > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 15 09:51:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13244 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08860; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:38:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cougar.ssi.stratus.com (cougar.ssi.stratus.com [198.97.42.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08796 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:38:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by cougar.ssi.stratus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28870; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:39:03 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:39:03 -0400 (EDT) Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Charlie Hodgson To: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Jaques Benveniste Cc: bdnow@envirolink.org Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 674 Dear Hugh, Thanks for the reply, but I guess my position wasn't clear. I've never considerer Dr. Benveniste's work fraudulent, I was specifically relating SI and James Randi's 'de-bunking' and the two IgNobels 'awarded' Dr. Benveniste. Recently, I've submitted a non-disclosure agreement to DigiBio, with the hope of gaining access to some of his research. I'm still not certain exactly what my life's mission is, but I strongly believe it has to do with something along the lines of new science. I know I need to help, just don't know how yet. I'm sure in time it will all become clear. At least I hope it does. I've had enough incidents in my life that defy logical explanation (via generally accepted principles) that I MUST believe that there is more. From the typical ghost/UFO encounters to (what I believe to be) a rift in space to the time I dropped a small piece of paper and later found it between my sock and sole of my foot (while wearing long pants and shoes). I am a skeptic, skeptical of generally accepted principles. There is little, if anything, that I hold to be fundamentally true. I see very strong correlations between homeopathy, radionics, cosmic pipe, memory of water, orgone, etc. Frankly, these all fit in pretty nicely with string theory as well, if you look past the attempts to reconcile it with relativity and quantum mechanics. Cheers, Charlie P.S. The Atlantis connection was from a post you had recently made, I didn't deduce it. My guess is that most people exploring these areas are Atlanteans as well. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 15 09:55:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13337 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09238; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:41:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08880 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:38:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B57F82@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 9:42:07 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 15 Apr 99 09:42:18 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 15 Apr 99 09:42:14 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:42:12 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Help with sensitve drop test needed Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199904142116.RAA01137@envirolink.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <2AFF0C412CA@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 675 > At 01:25 PM 4/14/99 EST5EDT, ANita wrote: > > >Hmmm... how *would* they explain the differences in chromotography of > >water out of the tap vs the same water run through a flow form? > > -- That is, assuming the stuff I learned from Jennifer Greene (the > >anthro flow form Queen) is correct and that chromotographs are quite > >different. > > I think you're referring to the "sensitive drop" tests that Jennifer does. > These reveal some sort of dynamics around the surface tension of the water > droplet. No colored compounds involved. > ======================== > David Robison > Stellar Processes > (503) 827-8336 voice and fax Oh, I see. Mea culpa. So, let me rephrase my original question (which is what I think I intended to ask in the first place but got mixed up): Is the "sensitive drop" test recognized outside of the anthro community? And if so, how are the results explained? Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 15 12:03:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00880 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:03:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03005; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:49:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02188 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:45:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from laquerencia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D79QHEZN; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:47:09 EDT To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:48:25 -0500 Subject: how to use cosmic pipes Message-ID: <19990415.104826.13446.3.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-8 From: Deborah M Byron Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 676 Dear Hugh, I'm interested in using your cosmic pipe. Can you tell me whether, after using the garden model in a backyard rental situation, it could be modified or converted for use in a larger space eventually...or would it be necessary to then switch to the larger model? Thanks, Deborah ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 15 12:48:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01875 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:48:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22369; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:04:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21865 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:02:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max4-21.stc.net [208.210.132.149]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA03473 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:05:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <075f01be873e$43426760$83d42fd1@windows98> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1989 09:44:46 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring,reachinga recordyesterday. The New York Times Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 677 >I am curious about the Cosmic Pipe. Can it be set up in a small space, such >as a 1,000 sq ft garden area? > >Frank Sure it can. I make a garden model just for that. Hugh Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 15 13:55:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03575 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:55:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26010; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:36:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25511 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:34:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] ([208.210.143.76]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20984 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:38:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990415.104826.13446.3.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1989 12:16:56 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: how to use cosmic pipes Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 678 >Dear Hugh, > > I'm interested in using your cosmic pipe. Can you tell me whether, >after using the garden model in a backyard rental situation, it could be >modified or converted for use in a larger space eventually...or would it >be necessary to then switch to the larger model? > >Thanks, >Deborah > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Cosmic Pipes are pretty versatile since it is an instrument that you program for each specific location. If you move the pipe (garden model covers at least up to 10 acres if not more) you probably have to get a new set of reagents and definitely a new aerial or survey map, since that's what is used to set the boundaries of the broadcast. But for sure if you move you should take your pipe with you whereever you move to. A complete reagent package with property evaluation and all that is $75. So that's what you should figure as the cost of the move. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 15 15:18:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05412 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:18:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14107; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:06:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13520 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:03:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B5E352@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:07:03 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 15 Apr 99 15:07:15 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 15 Apr 99 15:06:48 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:06:41 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: COTS: April 04, 1999 - April 10, 1999 Priority: normal In-reply-to: <7E5B3F665C2CC13A85256751004D6379.0000000000000000@webcity> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <2B559C83250@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id PAA13522 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 679 Hi Jane! I've been holding on to this entry of the Calendar of the Soul for some reason, and so I just thought I'd share my thoughts with you. First, having recited RS poems most of my life (due to being a Waldorf student) and then being forced to read the calendar every morning as a bd apprentice, my normal reaction to these things is: there all just different permutations of "in the depth of", "soul," and "cosmic (fill in the blank)". Blah blah blah. The calendar has been especially frustrating for me. But this one finally struck me as understandable! What I understand it to say is, "when one is finally blessed by the warmth and light of the sun in springtime, it can be so exciting and wonderful that you are pulled outside of yourself." A sort of Steinerian way of saying "spring fever"! Thanks for taking it upon yourself to post the calender readings. Anita Calendar of the Soul [April 04, 1999 - April 10, 1999] Easter (April 7-13) SPRING When out of world-wide spaces The sun speaks to the human mind, And gladness from the depths of soul Becomes, in seeing, one with light, Then rising from the sheath of self, Thoughts soar to distances of space And dimly bind The human being to the spirit's life. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Wenn aus den Weltenweiten Die Sonne spricht zum Menschensinn Und Freude aus den Seelentiefen Dem Licht sich eint im Schauen, Dann ziehen aus der Selbstheit Hülle Gedanken in die Raumesfernen Und binden dumpf Des Menschen Wesen an des Geistes Sein. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+01 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 15 16:56:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA07874 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:56:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02419; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:43:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3.hawaii.rr.com (smtp3.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02332 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:43:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: apparently from phyl - 24.94.65.227 by smtp3.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:41:43 -1000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990415103800.00932b30@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:46:24 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: Re: COTS: April 04, 1999 - April 10, 1999 In-Reply-To: <2B559C83250@agecon.uga.edu> References: <7E5B3F665C2CC13A85256751004D6379.0000000000000000@webcity> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_61965758==_.ALT" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 680 --=====================_61965758==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Jane & Anita, I'm also grateful the Calendar verses are being posted. We are starting to read them in the morning on our farm prior to commencing work... to help set a mood of "we are here and using our minds and hearts, not just to work but to salute life... and to call upon the unseen up yonder and out there, down here throughout our farm under our feet and in the air and throughout the whole magnificent being of earth, and in here in our hearts and minds and bodies." Just to do something to set a mood, make a different energy, declare another focus, establish another rhythm... and to go about our work. If we have a little discussion from time to time about a verse, so much the better. Thanks again, Phyl ============================================== pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com Phyl Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. Waianae, HI 96792 808-696-1010 808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_61965758==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dear Jane & Anita,

I'm also grateful the Calendar verses are being posted.

We are starting to read them in the morning on our farm prior to commencing work... to help set a mood of "we are here and using our minds and hearts, not just to work but to salute life... and to call upon the unseen up yonder and out there, down here throughout our farm under our feet and in the air and throughout the whole magnificent being of earth, and in here in our hearts and minds and bodies."

Just to do something to set a mood, make a different energy, declare another focus, establish another rhythm... and to go about our work.

If we have a little discussion from time to time about a verse, so much the better.

Thanks again,

Phyl


==============================================
pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com

Phyl Dwyer
Kahumana Farm
86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd.
Waianae, HI 96792

808-696-1010
808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_61965758==_.ALT-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 15 21:50:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA15149 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:50:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12230; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:36:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from news1.infoave.net (news1.InfoAve.Net [165.166.15.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA11742 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by news1.infoave.net; id AA00030; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:36:51 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:36:51 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990415213508.281ffc76@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: German to English translation and identification please Cc: BDnow@envirolink.org Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 681 At 03:36 PM 4/14/99 EDT, PatandLiz@aol.com wrote: > >Hello German speaking folks, > > I have some material by J. Voegele entitled "Anleitung zur Herstellung der >Duengerpraeparate" issued by Forschungsribg fuer Biologish-Dynamishe >Wirtschaftsweise. I can guess some of it but not all and who is J. Voegele? A >BD farmer I assume. > >Regards, Patrick At 01:10 PM 4/14/99 -0700, Dr. Andrew Lorand wrote: > >Immanuel Voegele was one of the very earliest pioneers of biodynamics. A >farmer and anthroposophist. He helped Ehrenfried Pfeiffer and Rudolf Steiner >with the first preparations before anything was made public. Attended the >Agriculture Course. Was instrumental in managing several farms and did lots >of research, especially with cereeals. Was involved in medical and curative >work as well. Was very beloved by all who met him. Immanuel Voegele's daughter, Ruth Zinniker, is a BD farmer in East Troy, Wisconsin. Malcolm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 15 23:04:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA17140 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA22083; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:49:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20277 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:30:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.186.174] ("port 2049"@[148.233.186.174]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FA9009KPD7JMX@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:24:04 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:28:33 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: BD holding back the earth In-reply-to: <00a101be858b$84e4fb60$5f431ccb@bio> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id WAA20285 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 682 >I am reading Steiners "Gospel of St. John" absolutely amazing, he goes a lot >into the evolutionary stages of the earth, humanity even the Lemurian and >Atlantean stages. >Well worth a good read. In a visit to the elib (http://www.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/) I found a recently added RS lecture that brings into perspective the role o death and evil forces as "motors" for spiritual evolvement. The name of the lecture is EVIL AND THE FUTURE OF MAN and IMHO it is quite relevant in view of the recent "what's the use, at the end will be destroyed" related postings on this list. Also well worth the read. Regards Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 16 07:51:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA21873 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:51:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA24501; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA24388 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:37:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.30]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:44:33 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:41:17 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Archer Daniels Midland won't buy or trade GM Corn Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 683 Am I confused? I thought it was the likes of Archer Daniels & Cargil that was the reason we HAVE GE corn? ---------------------- Forwarded by Jane Sherry/wcdev/US on 04/16/99 07:39 AM --------------------------- Curtis Lang on 04/15/99 01:59:11 PM To: "'clang@webcity-development.com'" cc: "'janesherry@cauldron.com'" Subject: Financial Times: World Trade April 15 1999 <<...>> Top US buyers spurn modified corn By Nikki Tait in Chicago Archer Daniels Midland, one of the biggest US agribusinesses and a leading corn processor, yesterday said it would not buy or trade any genetically modified (GM) corn which had not been approved by the European Union. ADM's statement follows a similar stance taken earlier this week by A.E. Staley, the US corn-processing subsidiary of Britain's Tate & Lyle, and means that two of the leading corn buyers in the US have decided to cold-shoulder non-EU-approved corn - at least for the time being - in an attempt to avoid trade problems. News of ADM's position prompted concern in the Midwest grain belt. Scott McFarlane, National Corn Growers Association director with responsibility for industry relations, said he had been inundated with calls from farmers asking what they should do. The issue arises because of EU concern over GM crops, and potential trade difficulties for anyone handling non-approved produce. Four varieties of GM corn grown in the US have been given approval, but another seven have not. The NCGA estimates that up to 40 per cent of all corn grown in the US this year will come from GM seed, and that about 10 per cent could involve varieties not approved in Europe. Last year alone, the US corn industry calculates, EU concerns over transgenic crops and the slow approval process cost it $200m in potential corn exports. As recently as last month Richard Rominger, deputy secretary at the US Department of Agriculture, was warning that "since several US biotech corn varieties remain unapproved in the EU, it's entirely possible that we won't export any corn to the EU this year". The ADM/Staley stance attempts to ensure that all corn and corn-related products from these companies comply with European trade requirements. The issue of how to handle the European situation is believed to have been widely discussed within the industry over recent months, and growers were warned that if they bought non EU-approved GM cornseed they should expect to have to sell their crop into the domestic feed market. The NCGA said it was not surprised by the companies' move, but acknowledged that this would limit outlets for corn. Mr McFarlane added that the association was advising growers who had bought unapproved seed and believed they no longer had a feasible outlet for their produce to exchange that seed for traditional varieties. "Most of those growers, though, have a domestic feed market in mind," he said. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 16 07:59:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA21911 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:59:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA25086; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA24903 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:45:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.4]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:52:43 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:49:27 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Writing About Trauma Is Seen to Ease Illness in Some-NYTimes Message-ID: <832C7E070DC726DA852567550040426C.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 684 Hugh wrote: <> well Hugh, it was not MY data. I forwarded the article from the NYTimes because I thought it was a good sign that the mainstream media and the mainstream allopathic medical industry would give credence to such an idea as journal writing being good for your health. This is not the kind of hard science that one normally associates with that industry. Being on the cutting edge and having something recognized mainstream are very different impulses. It is my experience that the latter is usually a very watered down version of the former. That having been said, I also think it's a positive sign that the status quo infrastructure is breaking down from the inside out. The Richters' herb newsletter this month was full of stories from around the world about governments trying to regulate herbal medicine from traditional healers in South Africa to India to China to the UK. This is a mixed blessing in my opinion, but one which will hopefully hasten the process of alternative medicine being taken seriously by planet earth 21st century before all the healers and all the herbs are wiped out by greed, overharvesting from the wild or commercial stupidity. If peoples' first impulse to take herbs are based on allopathic's medical impulse to alleviate the symptoms, perhaps the herbs themselves will work on peoples' subtle bodies (what's left of them) to introduce a more balanced approach to healing. Best Regards, Jane Sherry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 16 08:43:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA22358 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA29071; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:31:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from halifax.chebucto.ns.ca (chebucto.ns.Ca [192.75.95.75]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA28848 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av204@localhost by halifax.chebucto.ns.ca id <35054-17610>; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:32:47 -0300 Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:32:47 -0300 (ADT) Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Joan Macdonald To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Archer Daniels Midland won't buy or trade GM Corn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: av204@chebucto.ns.ca X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 685 Greetings; Jane; I heard on the Austrian English Overseas Service, that no US GE corn (maize) will be permitted into Austria. They said that the public does not want GE foods....The Gov't has not definitely come out against GE technology, but the public has...200,000 people have let them know they are against GE products and technology. Also there are 4 mainstream GE Corps with offices in Austria who had joined together to do field trials in the country... Recently they announced they were going to suspend those trials for the present. Until the US Gov't and the Corp's can sway the European public...GE corn will have to be used domestically...AND that will spread to soybeans also.. Some GE maize had already been turned back to the US and some which was supposedly non-GE was tested as having some in it.. I doubt that the US farmers actually know what they are growing unless they have the seeds pre-tested before planting. In North America, we were so vocal about the Proposed Organic Rules but we must be tired and have not done the same about GE products. If you read your local papers over a week period, how many times will you see any mention of GE Technology (except the Stock pages). This weekend at a local Halifax university is a public round table discussion on the implications of Health and GE products. They will include organic/biodynamic/CSA's as an good alternative choice. Joan Macdonald Halifax, Nova Scotia From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 16 08:46:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA22389 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:46:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA29353; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:34:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29218 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.24]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:40:04 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:36:47 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: COTS: April 04, 1999 - April 10, 1999 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 686 Hi Anita, I've subscribed to the cots list so I get those verses automatically each weekend. Not having had a Waldorf education (but thanks for sharing a bit of your background with us), I have no automatic reaction to the verses. I find them quite evocative. I wouldn't mind learning a bit more about how they came to be written by Steiner. I do however have a great love of poetry, symbolism and archetypal expressions. I think poetry is one of the underutilized and undervalued art forms, much like sculpture, movement and other soul expressions. Poetry offers the soul a glimpse of the ordinary and the ordinary a glimpse of the divine. Best Regards, Jane Sherry I've been holding on to this entry of the Calendar of the Soul for some reason, and so I just thought I'd share my thoughts with you. First, having recited RS poems most of my life (due to being a Waldorf student) and then being forced to read the calendar every morning as a bd apprentice, my normal reaction to these things is: there all just different permutations of "in the depth of", "soul," and "cosmic (fill in the blank)". Blah blah blah. The calendar has been especially frustrating for me. But this one finally struck me as understandable! What I understand it to say is, "when one is finally blessed by the warmth and light of the sun in springtime, it can be so exciting and wonderful that you are pulled outside of yourself." A sort of Steinerian way of saying "spring fever"! Thanks for taking it upon yourself to post the calender readings. Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 16 09:42:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23297 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06067; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:28:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05230 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.13]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:31:48 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:28:31 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: If Earth is to be destroyed anyway, then what? Message-ID: <0C123C2906F47DFA8525675500467606.0049B7D185256755@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 687 Dear Bd-Now Friends, For me, there has been something missing from this discussion of "Too Much" and the destruction of the earth threads. I think Woody and Barbara's <<"Can we take our true power back, developing heart-mind so we can accept with grace and humility the gifts Nature and the Spirit World offer us;">> and Andrew's <<"One misses something very essential about biodynamics (and its many closely related anthroposophical endeavors in other fields, like economics or medicine or architecture) if one perceives it as e.g. the better system, simply available then to replace the older, not so holistic, regerative, holistic, etc. system.">> begin to state the problem. I feel that Hugh has devolved a bit in this conversation to shameless boosterism, forgive my harshness, but if people want information on Hugh's radionic devices for purchase, I for one, would be more comfortable if they contacted him privately. If on the other hand, the discussion included how the devices continued or expanded upon Steiner's work, I would find that more useful, and frankly less offensive. I agree with Andrew (in part) that progress is a matter of inner development. I also agree with Anita's comments that Hugh's original post, also promoting the Greg Willis perspective, were "doom & gloom". Anita also made equally important points <<"And let's work on our family organisms as well, and do the painful work of facing our own personal challenges and shadow sides. And let's work on our friendships and cultivating the organism of our spirit families.">> This forum has often illustrated divisive "opinions" about the real way, the best way, the only way to follow Steiner which is exactly why we need to give strength to just the kind of work Anita describes. In my extremely limited readings and understanding of Steiner's teachings, I thought the first and most important thing to do was to cultivate "direct perception" not the correct way to have a compost pile, nor the correct way to get the preps out, nor the correct way to be a more spiritual being. In our culture there are few guides, nor rewards for such work. Yes, we live in a material world, and as folks on sanet are so fond of saying, part of sustainable agriculture is being able to support oneself through one's efforts. However, I feel that now is the time to put all of these good ideas to service, not just for our own small piece of earth, but toward a shifting paradigm, that through our demonstrations in our daily behaviour, our small pieces of healed earth, the increase in spiritual food offered to others, that through this demonstration we can create a new model of living in harmony with our universe, on this planet and give energy to the impulse of life, which always, by necessity and very definition includes change and transformation. Perhaps many of you perceive a dying earth. I perceive a changing time. Perhaps many of you feel fear and urgency to work hard. Urgency is good but not at the sacrifice of being quiet and giving reverence. Perhaps many of you feel confused as to which is the best course of action. Even more then, it becomes clear that what each of us must do is seek new ways of perception and not rely on others entirely to tell them what to do. We haven't mentioned the one thing which makes this whole conversation change. And that is the gift on this planet in this incarnation of human will. Many of you have mentioned Atlantis in relation to this time of millenial fears and apocalyptic doomsayers. Again, it is within our power to reexamine that earlier similar, to reach into the depths of the past and into the depths of our collective future, to recreate a scenario where we embrace diversity, transformation and the love impulse! >From Christine's post quoting Steiner: <<"We shall also learn that it is necessary for the Earth to be destroyed, for otherwise the spiritual could not become free. We shall also learn to value what is positive, namely the penetration of spiritual forces into our existance on Earth.">> Forgive me again, but what must be destroyed of earth is this old paradigm, this old structure which has outlived it's usefulness: peoples' selfish egos and illusion of separateness, not the earth itself. If people like Greg and Hugh believe that "there is not time" then perhaps for them, this is true. The best work we can do now collectively is dump the hubris, and celebrate life and change in all of it's many tumultuous forms. Again, as Woody & Barbara so eloquently stated: <<"Here in this analogy is another way to look at Earth changes, Y2K disruptions, societal upheavals and all the rest of the fearful happenings we anticipate with the coming of a new millenium, a speed bump on the road to the Mayan enddate, Winter Solstice 2012--a birthing, a transformation, a move into a new way of being for (wo)mankind and the Planet.">> Many Blessings, Jane Sherry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 16 09:44:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23337 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:44:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06551; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:31:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05836 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.13]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:34:32 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:31:15 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Archer Daniels Midland won't buy or trade GM Corn Message-ID: <87A9AA892294A03285256755004A21FD.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 688 <> Not very often, but I did see that our head of the Federal Reserve (Allan Greenspan) is touting GE as the next best thing for our financial health! <> How wonderfully progressive! They must not have any big business sponsors. Jane From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 16 09:54:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23517 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:54:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07968; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07344 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B67552@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 9:40:20 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 16 Apr 99 09:40:32 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 16 Apr 99 09:40:10 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:40:03 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: COTS: April 04, 1999 - April 10, 1999 Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <2C7E8C97B7B@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 689 > I do however have a great love of poetry, symbolism and archetypal > expressions. I think poetry is one of the underutilized and undervalued art > forms, much like sculpture, movement and other soul expressions. Poetry > offers the soul a glimpse of the ordinary and the ordinary a glimpse of the > divine. > > Best Regards, > Jane Sherry Hi Jane, So nice to hear from you again. I couldn't agree more with the above. Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 16 10:53:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24747 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:53:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18233; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18173 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:40:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-157.s30.as2.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.157]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id KAA12998 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:44:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37174D05.DD9C4FB8@erols.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:45:25 -0400 From: Rex Harrill Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: If Earth is to be destroyed anyway, then what? References: <0C123C2906F47DFA8525675500467606.0049B7D185256755@webcity> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 690 Jane Sherry/wcdev/US wrote: > I feel that Hugh has devolved a bit in this conversation to shameless > boosterism, I don't. > forgive my harshness, I do, but do you *really* feel it was necessary? > but if people want information on Hugh's radionic devices for purchase, I for > one, would be more comfortable if they contacted him privately. Jane, radionics has been suppressed far too long. Don't you think it's possible at least a few on this list are truly curious? This forum may be the only place they can gather info. Unless Hugh has done a good job of fooling the world, he didn't start making cosmic pipes to get rich. I believe it was much more a case of "rolling his own" because he was frustrated with the technical shortcomings of the devices on the market. I, for one, eagerly read each of his CP messages, whether it be a tale of success, or a warning about what not to do. Saying that he manufactures this-or-that hardly seems commercial to me. In a like manner, I appreciate him telling about his crops and the prices he charges. > If on the other hand, the discussion included how the devices continued or > expanded upon Steiner's work, I would find that more useful, and frankly less > offensive. Again---the term "offensive" baffles me. Please rethink the situation and see if you can accept that Hugh's enthusiam, whether for horn clay, or for cosmic pipe technology, is hardly spam. IMHO he and Greg are expanding on Steiner's work. Trying to make a living while doing it is not sinful. These guys are out where the rubber meets the road, not sitting back in the city drawing a fat paycheck. Regards, Rex Harrill From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 16 12:01:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26135 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28973; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27995 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.15.189]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:47:52 +0100 Message-ID: <37175C19.116A@cwcom.net> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:49:45 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Plant breeding - good news Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 691 Following the thread about restrictions on GE corn exports to the EU, I've just read in "New Scientist" (3 Apr) that a team at Horticultural Research International (Wellesbourne, Warwickshire, UK) have identified genes governing the sweetness, tartness and smell of strawberries. They propose to develop strains of strawberries which taste richer and sweeter by using traditional methods of plant breeding, using genetic techniques merely to identify the varieties which carry the key flavour genes. Good news ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 16 15:11:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA00359 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:11:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29499; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19879 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:58:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:58:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904161758.NAA19879@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 14420 invoked from network); 16 Apr 1999 18:02:29 -0000 Received: from i48-02-01.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO DAVE) (216.26.2.65) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 1999 18:02:29 -0000 X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Re: If Earth is to be destroyed anyway, then what? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 692 Jane said: >If on the other hand, the discussion included how >the devices continued or expanded upon Steiner's work, I would find that >more useful, and frankly less offensive. Offensive? This list? Thats a pretty strong word. I dont want to discourage anyone's irrepressible enthusiasm and opinions (even Jane's).Thats what makes this list interesting. Enthusiasm is not boosterism. You know what is offensive -- the lack of netiquette on this list. Despite Allan's requests, many persist in (1) sending personal messages to the whole list that would be better sent to just one individual (2) repeating large sections of irrelevant text when responding (3) failing to specify an OFF topic when discussing GE or whatever. I put up with this minor hassle because I generally enjoy the discussions. But c'mon, we are not a group of newbies anymore. We should be able to show more consideration toward our fellows. ======================== David Robison Stellar Processes From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 16 15:11:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA00374 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29351; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:58:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03314 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:11:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.3]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:18:30 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:15:11 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: If Earth is to be destroyed anyway, then what? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 693 Rex, There were at least 6 references in the last week by Hugh to "his radionic devices". When he discusses his crop prices he is not trying to sell me his vegetables. I am all in favor of illumination on the subject of radionics as are others on this list such as Steve Diver who has radionics information available at his ATTRA site. I am not saying Hugh is trying to get rich on this list, but I would appreciate his directing those with interest in "buying" a device to be told by him to contact Hugh privately. Others on this list promote ideas, new and otherwise, but not their wares. They direct us to their websites or to contact them personnally. I very much appreciate Hugh's efforts & innovations in the field of bd. However, I wish he would more frequently point out the risks associated with their use by the inexperienced more than he does. Years ago, I heard more stories from Hugh in this forum about the severe problems he had for many years using the device before he knew enough and had enough experience. Certainly we should discuss radionics, but for those USING these devices, with no further training of the subtle senses, or kineasology or some other form of subtle testing abilities, I feel that disseminating information is great, just that disseminating a sales pitch for getting devices into untrained folks hands is irresponsible. My feeling about advocating "backyard garden" use of such a device, is that it is irresponsible. Many people with backyard gardens are very close to others with backyard gardens. Why should my garden be put at risk because someone next door is gung ho on using their device without the experience, and the ample space in which to test it over a period of time? Hugh says there is urgency to get the preps out on a grand scale, but he himself had the luxury of many years practice with these things before he became a "master" at it. Also, what about the fact, that as Cheryl has pointed out, there is a limited supply of preparations? Yes, Hugh would say this makes it even more important to use the radionic devices. But I feel that until there is way to use such a device and TO DO NO HARM to others at the same time, then it should NOT be seen as a panacea. Why not promote training in the use of radionics right alongside of promoting folks making their own preparations? Like I said, discussion is great Rex. I even said something in my post about how folks need to make a living. There is nothing sinful about that and I never implied there was. In fact, Steiner even says that when one undertakes a spiritual path, one must not abandon the material world and ones' material obligations to oneself and ones' family. And of course, I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that simply because I live in the city, that I am "sitting back" "drawing a fat paycheck". Jane Sherry Rex wrote: "Jane, radionics has been suppressed far too long. Don't you think it's possible at least a few on this list are truly curious? This forum may be the only place they can gather info. Unless Hugh has done a good job of fooling the world, he didn't start making cosmic pipes to get rich. I believe it was much more a case of "rolling his own" because he was frustrated with the technical shortcomings of the devices on the market. I, for one, eagerly read each of his CP messages, whether it be a tale of success, or a warning about what not to do. Saying that he manufactures this-or-that hardly seems commercial to me. In a like manner, I appreciate him telling about his crops and the prices he charges." "IMHO he and Greg are expanding on Steiner's work. Trying to make a living while doing it is not sinful. These guys are out where the rubber meets the road, not sitting back in the city drawing a fat paycheck. Regards, Rex Harrill" From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 16 17:17:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA03089 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:17:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA21051; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web205.mail.yahoo.com (web205.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.105]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA20716 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19990416210544.8727.rocketmail@web205.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [128.143.38.154] by web205.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:05:44 PDT Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:05:44 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce ritchie Subject: Re: If Earth is to be destroyed anyway, then what? To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 694 dear all, If the earth is to be destroyed, then what will be there for the meek to inherit? Or is that promise just passe? bruce ritchie _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 16 18:40:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04408 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:40:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA01648; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:27:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA01190 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:24:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.13]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:31:27 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:28:04 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: then what....an apologyf Message-ID: <6E76CEBE970B05E785256755007B422D.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 695 Dear Hugh & the list, I apologize for my use of the word "offensive" this morning. Perhaps that was overly harsh. What I meant to say was I wish Hugh would promote the discussion of radionic devices, and not the sale of his devices on this list. I apologize for any netiquette that may have been breached. Jane Sherry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 16 19:08:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA04801 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:08:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05052; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:55:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04965 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:54:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-190.s63.as2.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.190]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA19694 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:06:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3717C0D7.3023B1A1@erols.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:59:35 -0400 From: Rex Harrill Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: If Earth is to be destroyed anyway, then what? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 696 Jane Sherry/wcdev/US wrote: > There were at least 6 references in the last week by Hugh to "his radionic > devices". OK, what is your cutoff number? > I am not saying Hugh is trying to get rich on this list... Sorry, it appeared to me that you were saying that. > I very much appreciate Hugh's efforts & innovations in the field of bd. > However, I wish he would more frequently point out the risks associated > with their use by the inexperienced more than he does. Years ago, I heard > more stories from Hugh in this forum about the severe problems he had for > many years using the device before he knew enough and had enough > experience. Now Jane, what I particularly like about Hugh's stories is that he *does* specifically warn of the pitfalls. He's a great teacher. > Certainly we should discuss radionics, but for those USING > these devices, with no further training of the subtle senses, or > kineasology or some other form of subtle testing abilities, I feel that > disseminating information is great, just that disseminating a sales pitch > for getting devices into untrained folks hands is irresponsible. > There you go again---I have *not* seen any "sales pitch." Responding to questions is certainly a far cry from a "sales pitch." > > My feeling about advocating "backyard garden" use of such a device, is that > it is irresponsible. Many people with backyard gardens are very close to > others with backyard gardens. Why should my garden be put at risk because > someone next door is gung ho on using their device without the experience, > and the ample space in which to test it over a period of time? Study the technology a little and you'll soon discover why your assumption is off base. > Hugh says there is urgency to get the preps out on a grand scale, but he > himself had the luxury of many years practice with these things before he > became a "master" at it. Jane, you took a line from the end of my message about city folk in general drawing paychecks and garbed yourself in it. Now you use the word "luxury" as though farmers are laying around and idly "practicing." Obviously, you missed my point: if a farmer struggles and works out a solution, albeit one row at a time, pay attention to their conclusion. They only get paid when they actually get the crop to grow and when they painstakingly manage to improve quality. City folk should listen---if quality matters to them. > Also, what about the fact, that as Cheryl has pointed out, there is a limited > supply of preparations? Yes, Hugh would say this makes it even more important > to use the radionic devices. But I feel that until there is way to use such a > device and TO DO NO HARM to others at the same > time, then it should NOT be seen as a panacea. If you will read his words carefully, you'll understand the methodology to prevent over-run into areas where the effects are not needed. However, if his acres were next to me, I would probably pay him to specifically include mine. Further, if I lived in town I would want my flower beds included. > Why not promote training in the use of radionics right alongside of promoting > folks making their own preparations? Absolute agreement! That's a terrific thread suggestion. > > Like I said, discussion is great Rex. I even said something in my post > about how folks need to make a living. There is nothing sinful about that > and I never implied there was. Well then, pardon my misreading. I may have focused too much on your admitted "harshness." > And of course, I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that simply because I live > in the city, that I am "sitting back" "drawing a fat paycheck". Of course not---I was making a generalization. I saw your words as judgmental and offensive so I spoke up. Perhaps I could have used an old homily like "don't condemn another man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins." I'd actually like to say something that implies a city person shouldn't complain about, say, a farmer's weeds until they have hoed a row or two in 95 degree heat and felt the sweat oozing out of every pore on their body. Regards, Rex Harrill PS: ATTRA is a governmental-funded project---one of the very few I wholeheartedly approve. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 16 19:53:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA05452 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:53:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09233; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goofy.arcom.com.au (root@main-gw.arcom.senet.com.au [203.56.239.50]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09067 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:38:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ruicaish (c1-p27.arcom.com.au [203.152.250.28]) by goofy.arcom.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA09031 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:11:36 +0930 Message-ID: <000a01be88ed$2da705e0$1cfa98cb@ruicaish> From: "Vincent Brown" To: References: <075f01be873e$43426760$83d42fd1@windows98> Subject: Re: Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring,reachinga recordyesterday. The New York Times Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:41:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 697 Hi all, I am new to the list and I am curious as to what this "cosmic pipe" is. Also, What type of worms are the best for compost and where do I get them? I have in the past got tiger worms from the bait shop but I am not so sure that these are the right sort. They seem to be very delicate and die off as soon as the compost dries out a bit or there is not much fresh food in it. Should I keep my compost heap covered (it has a piece of carpet covering it at the moment), should I water the heap? Vincent. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Teuton To: Sent: Thursday, 15 April 1999 5:47 Subject: Re: Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring,reachinga recordyesterday. The New York Times > > > > Hugh responded: > > >What I am saying is that no matter how much NPK is tied up in the pollen > >only as much as gets digested is available for the following organisms. > >Never does it ALL get digested, but where the ecology is weak very little > >may be. I've gardened in Atlanta and my first compost pile sat for 6 months > >with no earthworms, despite BD preps, until I brought them in. There's > >earthworms in Atlanta, but not everywhere, and not necessarily a lot. My > >last Atlanta garden was in Little Five Points at a former washateria > >parking lot. The compost pile preceeded the garden once again, but, > >surprise, there were earthworms that showed up. The parking lot was REALLY > >hard, but in two years the beds could be forked with a pitchfork and were > >really good soil. Goes to show what you can do. There I only put on the > >preps with the Cosmic Pipe, kind of as a test to see if the pipe alone > >could get the preps out well. It did very well, especially considering the > >nature of that soil. And the flavor of things growing there was very > >exciting. You should have tasted the dill or the cherry tomatoes. Now it > >will be a different project, as the lease ran out on the parking lot. Ah, > >well! I don't doubt that after getting the earthworm population up in the > >parking lot we got a lot of fertility out of the pollen. We'd never have > >gotten it before the earthworms, however. > > > Yes, earthworms are amazing. One of the seminal quotes from this year's > Stella Natura offers the earthworm as the next best thing to cattle as the > heart of a farm organism; somewhat by accident, I have found the worms I > released here in my compost piles in Montreal to be steadfast laborers for > good in the compost, although there were other worms present in the land > before....so I at least have both Eisenia fetida and Lumbricus terrestris, > and likely others....and millipedes, ants, pseudoscorpions, springtails, > etc... > > I am curious about the Cosmic Pipe. Can it be set up in a small space, such > as a 1,000 sq ft garden area? > > Frank > > > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 16 21:04:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06278 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:04:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA14886; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:51:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA14703 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:49:17 -0400 (EDT) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id hFQQa09989 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:52:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4c0e25ea.24493545@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:52:21 EDT Subject: soil test To: BDnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 698 Anybody out there willing to give their 2 cents on this soil sample? Average rainfall is 80" a year with average soil temperature 70 degrees. Bulk density is 1.14. What is the formula for the conversion from ppm to lbs. per acre? Thank you for any input. Regards, Patrick ph - 4.5 Organic Carbon - 3.7% N - 0.33 % P - 3.3 ppm K - 56 ppm Ca - 62 ppm Mg - 70 ppm B - 0.39 ppm Fe - 103 ppm Zn - 0.8 ppm Mn - 12 ppm Cu - 1.9 ppm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 00:57:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA08469 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 00:57:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA01474; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 00:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mw3.texas.net (mw3.texas.net [206.127.30.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA01400 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 00:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dldavis.texas.net (tcnet07-53.austin.texas.net [209.99.35.116]) by mw3.texas.net (2.4/2.4) with SMTP id XAA17619 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 23:46:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <001101be888c$9a9975e0$742363d1@dldavis.texas.net> From: "The Davis Family" To: Subject: plastic frames in bee hives Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 23:41:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 699 I'm new to the BD forum and I would like some input by those who keep bees on the relative safety of the plastic frames by Pierco. I have started to keep bees this last year and I am using the plastic frames inside of my hives. I have recently started to question whether they are safe to use ? Any xenostrogen effects? My bees seem to have accepted them without any problems and the colonies have done very well. Thanks for any ideas or suggestions Dan Davis From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 01:45:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA08928 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 01:45:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA03391; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 01:32:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand2.global.net.uk (sand2.global.net.uk [194.126.80.50]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA03320 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 01:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pc0s11a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.219.193] helo=compaq) by sand2.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 10YNkB-0002Uq-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 06:34:20 +0100 Message-ID: <37181BB1.12F6@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 06:27:13 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: COTS: April 04, 1999 - April 10, 1999 References: <2C7E8C97B7B@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 700 Anita Graf (Staff) wrote: > > > I do however have a great love of poetry, symbolism and archetypal > > expressions. I think poetry is one of the underutilized and undervalued art > > forms, much like sculpture, movement and other soul expressions. Poetry > > offers the soul a glimpse of the ordinary and the ordinary a glimpse of the > > divine. > > > > Best Regards, > > Jane Sherry > > Hi Jane, > So nice to hear from you again. I couldn't agree more with the > above. > > Anita > > Anita Graf > 313-F Conner Hall > Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics > University of Georgia > Athens, GA 30602-7509 > (706) 542-1915 phone > (706) 542-0739 fax > agraf@agecon.uga.edu Well that pleases me a lot,incidentally every day the Ministry of Agriculture in Britain gets a 50 liner from me over the GM business so I am not so sure they agree with us but it keeps the files on GM growing Rex Tyler From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 04:10:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA09829 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 04:10:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA08605; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 03:57:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cask.force9.net (cask.force9.net [195.166.128.29]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA08552 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 03:57:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 504 invoked from network); 17 Apr 1999 07:57:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO coors.free-online.net) (212.56.108.80) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 17 Apr 1999 07:57:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 11079 invoked from network); 17 Apr 1999 07:51:33 -0000 Received: from 145.hiper05.dialin.free-online.net (HELO elementalsols) (212.56.118.145) by coors.free-online.net with SMTP; 17 Apr 1999 07:51:33 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990417085534.007b1940@mail.aecb.net> X-Sender: mark.es@mail.aecb.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 08:55:34 +0100 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Mark Moodie Subject: Re: If Earth is to be destroyed anyway, then what? In-Reply-To: <19990416210544.8727.rocketmail@web205.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 701 At 14:05 16/4/99 -0700, you wrote: > >dear all, > If the earth is to be destroyed, then what will be there for the >meek to inherit? We could sue the Pope! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 09:33:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA11350 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA20826; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA20504 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:17:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max19-30.stc.net [208.210.143.29]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17636 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1989 07:59:49 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: If Earth is to be destroyed anyway, then what? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 702 Jane Sherry writes: > >My feeling about advocating "backyard garden" use of such a device, is that >it is irresponsible. Many people with backyard gardens are very close to >others with backyard gardens. Why should my garden be put at risk because >someone next door is gung ho on using their device without the experience, >and the ample space in which to test it over a period of time? Hugh says >there is urgency to get the preps out on a grand scale, but he himself had >the luxury of many years practice with these things before he became a >"master" at it. Also, what about the fact, that as Cheryl has pointed out, >there is a limited supply of preparations? Yes, Hugh would say this makes >it even more important to use the radionic devices. But I feel that until >there is way to use such a device and TO DO NO HARM to others at the same >time, then it should NOT be seen as a panacea. Why not promote training in >the use of radionics right alongside of promoting folks making their own >preparations? Dear Jane, I certainly share your concerns, especially after all that experience with past methods that amounted to radical experimenting in the dark. I assure you that I build my equipment so that it is reliable and that I give a lot of attention to how it is put in operation. Everyone is instructed to limit their pipe broadcast to their own property, and they are given instructions in how to do this. I quite agree that it is irresponsible to treat a neighbor's property without their informed consent. It just so happens the pipes work better when there is a boundary for the broadcast to reflect back from. Then you build up the energy within that boundary and get full and even coverage. So anyone who wants to have their pipe work properly BETTER keep the broadcast to their own property boundaries. I try to adequate explain this to everyone, but you never know how well you've been listened to. I'm sure it is possible for the occasional user to abuse their cosmic pipe. Back when I freely published my construction designs we had a lot of phone calls from people building their own--with every sort of mad departure from what I thought were prudent cautions and restraints. We had one fellow call up and say, "I built one of your cosmic pipes and I put Black Flag in it. Is that going to take care of my insects?" Well that's not all it would "take care" of. So any more I'm not publishing the details, I'm making kits with individual reagent packages and all kinds of cautions to use only what is provided and to re-evaluate the reagents every year, and call on us whenever anything unusual happens. It might not do to assume I'd be irresponsible about this, but I'm open to comments and suggestions as to how I might do better. I could easily enough be overlooking something important, and I'd want to hear about it. And sorry if the tone of my discussion tended toward advertisment. Regards, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 09:57:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA11482 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:57:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21925; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:45:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21791 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:42:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max19-30.stc.net [208.210.143.29]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA19612 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:45:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6E76CEBE970B05E785256755007B422D.0000000000000000@webcity> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1989 08:24:52 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: then what....an apologyf Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 703 >Dear Hugh & the list, >I apologize for my use of the word "offensive" this morning. Perhaps that >was overly harsh. What I meant to say was I wish Hugh would promote the >discussion of radionic devices, and not the sale of his devices on this >list. I apologize for any netiquette that may have been breached. > >Jane Sherry Dear Jane, I assure you no offense was taken. To people's questions about buying pipes I should have responded privately and not to the whole list. My error, for which I accept chastisement willingly. I expect to continue discussing radionic and radionic equipment and methods on this list. I haven't been shy on that front yet. Maybe you can understand my enthusiasm for finding a means of applying BD preparations well--outstandingly well--with almost no way of failing as long as instructions are followed. And outside of stirring every day in a bucket and going out and physically spraying morning and evening without expensive equipment the cosmic pipe is very cheap and economical. For applying preps to large acreages it is extremely cheap. Between this and Greg's development of horn clay biodynamics finally may arrive for the masses. I haven't seen any other way for it to happen in the past. Pfeiffer tried to address the problems of getting the preps applied back in the fifties when he developed his compost starter and field spray. But that was still too much work and expense for most people to apply his method on their farms. It's true that I do make a little money on every cosmic pipe that I sell, but as Rex has correctly perceived, I didn't get into it with that thought in mind. I simply was trying to meet needs. I've priced the kits so that I would make UPS driver's wages making the things. Compared to what I make farming it could really be a step up in earnings. But, you know, I started out publishing all the details of my design and trying to teach people how to do it themselves. I don't see where that is any effort to get rich on it. What I found was I'd better make them myself and give people as close to a foolproof a way to go as I could because mostly they did crazy and ill-considered things just as I did when I started out. So I hardly had any choice but to start marketing them, and I've heard it from many quarters that my pricing is too cheap. Lorraine has kept files of every installation and performs on-going consultancy for those who want it. We're trying to keep track of what happens with these things, which is what we feel is responsible and necessary. There's probably a whole lot more that we don't yet know. We want to find out, so that's what we're trying to do. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 10:23:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11721 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:23:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23357; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:10:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23164 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max19-30.stc.net [208.210.143.29]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA21760 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:11:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000a01be88ed$2da705e0$1cfa98cb@ruicaish> References: <075f01be873e$43426760$83d42fd1@windows98> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1989 08:50:38 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this spring,reachinga recordyesterday. The New York Times Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 704 >From: "Vincent Brown" >To: >Subject: Re: Atlanta's pollen count is unusually high this >spring,reachinga recordyesterday. The New York Times >Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:41:59 -0700 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org > >Hi all, > >I am new to the list and I am curious as to what this "cosmic pipe" is. >Also, What type of worms are the best for compost and where do I get them? >I have in the past got tiger worms from the bait shop but I am not so sure >that these are the right sort. They seem to be very delicate and die off as >soon as the compost dries out a bit or there is not much fresh food in it. >Should I keep my compost heap covered (it has a piece of carpet covering it >at the moment), should I water the heap? > >Vincent. Dear Vincent, A cosmic pipe is a stationary, self-driven etheric field broadcaster. It can be used to broadcast the biodynamic preparations to the ether fields of both the soil and atmosphere. The soil's ether field is digestive while the atmosphere's ether field supports fruiting and ripening. It is important to stimulate both in a blanced way so that in the summer fruiting and ripening predominates and in the winter digestion and nutrition predominate. Since the ether--which is the life force--streams from lower to high concentration, the biodynamic preparations--which are highly charged with life force--act as magnets to draw life force in where they have been applied. This hasn't been too well explained in the past and mostly folks have been in mystery about how the preps worked. It was common to use them only on rare occasion and not to use them all or use them all back-to-back so that balance and harmony were promoted. Not too many folks used them effectively enough to really see how full of life their environment could become. It works like a snowball rolling down hill though. The more lively things become the more strongly they draw in more life force. As for earthworms, I don't know what kinds are the best. There is virtue in diversity, however. You might get as many different kinds as you can manage. The big issue is providing for their dietary requirements. If you clean cultivate everything so that all you have is potatoes or corn or beans with bare soil all around you'll starve and dry up your earthworms. If you garden in beds, say 40 inches wide and surround these beds in a sod of grass, clover and herbs like dandelion, yarrow, plantain, etc. you can mow this every week or so and leave the clipping for the earthworms to eat. They'll thrive on this steady smorgasbord and you'll be growing your garden into fertility. And mowing is losts easier than hoeing. It beats me how so many folks want to have bare soil everywhere in their gardens. It baffles me brainless. Clover, folks! Clover! get your nitrogen from the air for free! Sharpen the blade on your lawnmower and raise earthworms. You can support roughly the same weight of earthworms per acre as you can cows without having to worry about fences or having them eat your vegetables. And if your compost is either too wet or too dry it probably isn't good. Water it if it's dry and cover it from rain if you get too much, etc. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 10:26:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11769 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23589; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:13:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23435 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:11:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max19-30.stc.net [208.210.143.29]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA22030 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:14:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4c0e25ea.24493545@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1989 08:53:53 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: soil test Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 705 > Anybody out there willing to give their 2 cents on this soil sample? >Average rainfall is 80" a year with average soil temperature 70 degrees. Bulk >density is 1.14. What is the formula for the conversion from ppm to lbs. per >acre? Thank you for any input. Regards, Patrick > >ph - 4.5 >Organic Carbon - 3.7% >N - 0.33 % >P - 3.3 ppm >K - 56 ppm >Ca - 62 ppm >Mg - 70 ppm >B - 0.39 ppm >Fe - 103 ppm >Zn - 0.8 ppm >Mn - 12 ppm >Cu - 1.9 ppm Dear Patrick, I don't know the formula for conversion, but I can see you've got a VERY low pH and you need calcium aplenty. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 11:29:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA12230 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28303; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:16:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28034 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp48.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.148]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA19304 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:14:38 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <003201be88e5$5cabbdc0$944b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: Subject: Re: then what....an apologyf Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:17:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 706 Dear Hugh, I'd like to comment on this discussion. I have to say that perhaps a clearer distinction between radionics as a methodology, and the cosmic pipe, itself should be established. I am still a newbie to the entire BD school of thought, and as you know, am still trying to understand why it is that there is such a distinct division between those in this community on the validity of radionics. Michael Fields Institute gives it no credibility, and Demeter does not endorse it either. (As you know this surprised me...since BOTH smack of downright MAGIC to me!:-)) I have to tell you that from the very limited understanding of the entire pipe thing...well, it seems to me that, for example, Claire Hall's method of walking the boundaries of her farm sprinkling the preps, seems an even more economical & natural way of getting them out there in the fields. I DID worry about the compaction, machinery expenses, etc. of spraying the fields, but after reading the theory behind the cosmic pipe & broadcasting in this way...well, it seems that getting out there as Claire does, and really interracting (she says it is a gift she offers her farm) with it seems very loving & personal, which appeals to me a great deal. I admit I am a gadget freak...and seeing Lorraine's cool little black box at the UMOFC truly intrigued me...I am very interested in radionics, and learning more about it, certainly before investing in the cosmic pipe...correct me, but I think the ads in ACRES quote a $450 price tag + the regeant package for $75 more, and I gotta tell you, for a small farm operation on a shoestring budget, its alot. Investing in ANYTHING that promises such incredibly dramatic results should be done very carefully (cite certain other ACRES ads...jeez, $5000 to "carbonize" my hayfield!) And of course this mutual alignment & endorsement of yours & Greg's is sort of sticking in my craw a bit...I won't go into details, since that's been beaten pretty hard, but I'm sure that you understand why this would be. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, Hugh, because I'm a fan of yours...once you told me that we all have our blind spots... Lovingly (really) Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 11:50:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA12430 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:50:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00083; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29891 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:36:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp259.cy-net.net [208.21.195.68]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15321 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:40:41 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE88B9.78C11680@FLYLO>; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:02:58 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE88B9.78C11680@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: then what... Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:53:20 -0500 Encoding: 16 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 707 What size large acreage are you dealing with? Do you have photos up anywhere on any web pages? martha . -----*********** And outside of stirring every day in a bucket and going out and physically spraying morning and evening without expensive equipment the cosmic pipe is very cheap and economical. For applying preps to large acreages it is extremely cheap. Between this and Greg's development of horn clay biodynamics finally may arrive for the masses. I haven't seen any other way for it to happen in the past. Pfeiffer tried to address the problems of getting the preps applied back in the fifties when he developed his compost starter and field spray. But that was still too much work and expense for most people to apply his method on their farms. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 12:38:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA12743 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:38:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03729; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03557 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:24:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 23615 invoked from network); 17 Apr 1999 16:28:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (209.47.212.249) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 17 Apr 1999 16:28:22 -0000 Message-ID: <0a1e01be88ee$b69ba440$83d42fd1@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Worms Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:24:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 708 Vincent wrote: >>Hi all, >> >>I am new to the list and I am curious as to what this "cosmic pipe" is. >>Also, What type of worms are the best for compost and where do I get them? >>I have in the past got tiger worms from the bait shop but I am not so sure >>that these are the right sort. They seem to be very delicate and die off as >>soon as the compost dries out a bit or there is not much fresh food in it. >>Should I keep my compost heap covered (it has a piece of carpet covering it >>at the moment), should I water the heap? >> And Hugh answered: >As for earthworms, I don't know what kinds are the best. There is virtue in >diversity, however. You might get as many different kinds as you can >manage. The big issue is providing for their dietary requirements. Composting worms, such as the tiger or brandling worm, aka red wrigglers, are Eisenia fetida (or foetida), which are the worms most often recommended for very rich environments such as worm bins, compost piles and windrows. Also in this group are Lumbricus rubellus. Soil living worms, who may inhabit a compost pile also, include the big spoontailed Lumbricus terrestris, which we also know as the rainworm or night crawler. This worm lives in deep burrows and will remove surprising amounts of leaf litter to special chambers called middens, where the material is colonized by microbes in order to produce the subsequent flush of life which, some scientists now believe, is in fact where the earthworms derive their sustenance... Re pile moisture, in a pile without worms moisture should be in the 40-60% range, as higher than that the pile may seal off air and become anaerobic. With worms however, the pile moisture may be higher; the worms tunneling will ensure good aeration up to 80% humidity, if you have a large enough population of worms. I have a battery of composters made from pallets in a backyard setup, with compost piles of varying ages standing side by side. A few years ago I introduced a small number of red wrigglers (2-3 pounds) into a large pile and they have spred throughout the system; I assume that they have various ways of surviving both the thermophilic phase of composting and our minus 40 F winters, as they seem to prosper in this situation. There is, of course, much more to be learned about worms and what I do know I have gleaned from people like Kelly Slocum at Worm Digest and from the various works on composting I have read, most of which include a worm section. Harnessing the Earthworm by Barrett is also quite inspirational. > If you >clean cultivate everything so that all you have is potatoes or corn or >beans with bare soil all around you'll starve and dry up your earthworms. >If you garden in beds, say 40 inches wide and surround these beds in a sod >of grass, clover and herbs like dandelion, yarrow, plantain, etc. you can >mow this every week or so and leave the clipping for the earthworms to eat. >They'll thrive on this steady smorgasbord and you'll be growing your garden >into fertility. And mowing is losts easier than hoeing. It beats me how so >many folks want to have bare soil everywhere in their gardens. It baffles >me brainless. Clover, folks! Clover! get your nitrogen from the air for >free! Sharpen the blade on your lawnmower and raise earthworms. You can >support roughly the same weight of earthworms per acre as you can cows >without having to worry about fences or having them eat your vegetables. And if your suburban neighbors throw away their leaves, as mine do, you can mulch instead of mowing, which is even easier.....:-) Hope this helps, Frank Teuton From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 14:17:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13736 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:17:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11269; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:04:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11054 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:03:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max11-32.stc.net [208.210.136.32]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA08702 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:07:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BE88B9.78C11680@FLYLO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1989 12:40:08 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: RE: then what... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 709 >What size large acreage are you dealing with? >Do you have photos up anywhere on any web pages? >martha >. > >-----*********** Martha, I'm not sure what the sizes are on all the farms since I'm working from aerial photos all the time. The larger farms are around 1,000 acres, which in two separate instances required two pipes. I think we've had a number around 500 acres and one pipe was sufficient in those instances. I haven't gotten photos up. I made a drawing for my ACRES, USA ad which will run in June. It shows the ether field broadcast, which you won't pick up with a photograph. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 14:17:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13744 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:17:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11311; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11066 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:03:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max11-32.stc.net [208.210.136.32]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA08707 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:07:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0a1e01be88ee$b69ba440$83d42fd1@windows98> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1989 12:45:03 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Worms Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 710 > > >> If you >>clean cultivate everything so that all you have is potatoes or corn or >>beans with bare soil all around you'll starve and dry up your earthworms. >>If you garden in beds, say 40 inches wide and surround these beds in a sod >>of grass, clover and herbs like dandelion, yarrow, plantain, etc. you can >>mow this every week or so and leave the clipping for the earthworms to eat. >>They'll thrive on this steady smorgasbord and you'll be growing your garden >>into fertility. And mowing is losts easier than hoeing. It beats me how so >>many folks want to have bare soil everywhere in their gardens. It baffles >>me brainless. Clover, folks! Clover! get your nitrogen from the air for >>free! Sharpen the blade on your lawnmower and raise earthworms. You can >>support roughly the same weight of earthworms per acre as you can cows >>without having to worry about fences or having them eat your vegetables. > >And if your suburban neighbors throw away their leaves, as mine do, you can >mulch instead of mowing, which is even easier.....:-) > >Hope this helps, > >Frank Teuton I might add that shredding the leaves with a lawnmower is worth doing. Earthworms don't have any teeth and they can't just take big bites out of leaves. They have to wait for decomposition of the leaves unless they are shredded. And lawnmowers make much better shredders than those expensive shredding machines and are safer too. Pour the leaves out on the ground and mow back and forth over them until they're all shredded. Then scatter this mulch. Nice stuff! Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 14:17:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13752 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:17:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11201; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:04:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11042 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max11-32.stc.net [208.210.136.32]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA08699 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003201be88e5$5cabbdc0$944b2e9c@oemcomputer> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1989 12:34:43 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: then what....an apologyf Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 711 >Dear Hugh, > >I'd like to comment on this discussion. I have to say that perhaps a clearer >distinction between radionics as a methodology, and the cosmic pipe, itself >should be established. > >I am still a newbie to the entire BD school of thought, and as you know, am >still trying to understand why it is that there is such a distinct division >between those in this community on the validity of radionics. Michael Fields >Institute gives it no credibility, and Demeter does not endorse it either. >(As you know this surprised me...since BOTH smack of downright MAGIC to >me!:-)) Dear Julie, et. al., I hardly know where to start. Several years ago Walter Goldstein told me point blank that he thought radionics was Ahrimanic and that it worked with the forces of subnature. He didn't feel at all comfortable with it--not because it didn't work, but because it did. Herbert Koepf has long been an opponent of radionics, dowsing and anything related. He has made a considerable impression on his students at Emerson College in this regard. I get the feeling that many of Christ's miracles wouldn't have been approved of, especially his healing at a distance. Shucks, 14 years ago when I showed my brother--who at that time was working as a nuclear engineer--my Hieronymus Analyzer, he said, "If you say anything more about it I'll get mad." Well, pretty obviously he already was mad. I took my instrument back out to the car and have never mentioned it to him again. When I offered to show it to Mary Lee Plumb-Mentjes she didn't want to see it and actually shook from fright she was so stirred up. I find these things to be nothing short of amazing. What goes on in peoples' minds? >From my point of view, however, energy follows thought. A radionic instrument really requires a conscious operator. It's an instrument just as a transit or a telescope is. It must have an operator. Even for a cosmic pipe to operate I go to great lengths to get people to program it with their written intents in the well and clearly defined property boundaries. I think it is a whole lot less Ahrimanic than tractors and spray rigs. All that heavy machinery is about as Ahrimanic as it gets. A cosmic pipe is unlike most of what is classified as radionic instruments. It doesn't do treatment at a distance (also known as teletherapy). It works directly in place on the local ether fields of soil and atmosphere, and it is self-driven. Because the BD preps are such potently charged reagents they draw in a stream of ether, which the pipe amplifies and broadcasts. This is life forces streaming into the solar system from the edges of the universe through the various planetary vortices and through the Earth. You won't see this kind of energy when you're focusing your eyes at it because it isn't visible to the eyes themselves. Rather it must be seen with the mind's eye. It seems to help if you get your physical vision a little unfocused. It's like seeing people's auras. It is not impossible to do and it isn't something that just a few mutant freaks can do. Most people will grant that they have an aura, but they aren't accustomed to seeing it. But really there's quite a lot of energy phenomena out there that we're not accustomed to seeing. It's something we ought to be teaching our kids to do as second nature. > >I have to tell you that from the very limited understanding of the entire >pipe thing...well, it seems to me that, for example, Claire Hall's method of >walking the boundaries of her farm sprinkling the preps, seems an even more >economical & natural way of getting them out there in the fields. I DID >worry about the compaction, machinery expenses, etc. of spraying the fields, >but after reading the theory behind the cosmic pipe & broadcasting in this >way...well, it seems that getting out there as Claire does, and really >interracting (she says it is a gift she offers her farm) with it seems very >loving & personal, which appeals to me a great deal. I like Claire Hall's methods. It is much more important than most people realize to establish clear boundaries to the farm. With well estabalished boundaries the farm organism can build up its energies and work as an organic whole. Without good boundaries it will not build up its energies nearly so well. I don't think it matters so much HOW we do our prep applications as long as we DO do them all regularly. > >I admit I am a gadget freak...and seeing Lorraine's cool little black box at >the UMOFC truly intrigued me...I am very interested in radionics, and >learning more about it, certainly before investing in the cosmic >pipe...correct me, but I think the ads in ACRES quote a $450 price tag + the >regeant package for $75 more, and I gotta tell you, for a small farm >operation on a shoestring budget, its alot. They were on sale for $450, but the going price is $495 and the reagents are included in that. Compared to the price tag on a 60 gallon sprayer, which cost me around $900 when I got the nozzles I needed, a Cosmic Pipe is pretty cheap. I don't see how dairy farmers in Wisconsin with $9 per hundredweight milk prices can afford even a new pair of rubber boots. As for Greg and myself in alignment, I think he and I are both surprised that our thinking runs on such similar tracks. I tried his horn clay and was simply amazed at what it did. When we put it in our home pipe, Lorraine exclaimed, "Did you feel that?" Well I certainly did. I believe most anyone would have. It was very noticeable--a kind of a whoosh that I felt most strongly in my heart chakra. Greg was very skeptical on first exposure to the cosmic pipe--until he saw one in operation and saw what it did for the vineyards he installed them in. But neither of us are arm-chair theorists philosophizing about the relative merits of things we haven't any first hand experience with. We're practical doers who depend on getting results for our livelihood. We have to get outstanding results and when we find ways to do that we go for it. Personal likes or dislikes have to take a back seat. Greg may thrive on controversy while I try to avoid it. Those are personal preferences. But when it comes to what gets the best BD responses in the field we are going to embrace what works, personal differences aside. As for promising incredibly dramatic results, I'm in favor of skepticism and caution myself. There are definitely enough snake oil salesmen out there. The fellow selling carbon has always struck me as the type, but there are people that swear by his product and it IS important to get carbon levels up in low organic matter soils. It sure would take a lot of extra bales of hay to make up for 5,000 dollars though. Best regards, Hugh >Investing in ANYTHING that >promises such incredibly dramatic results should be done very carefully >(cite certain other ACRES ads...jeez, $5000 to "carbonize" my hayfield!) > >And of course this mutual alignment & endorsement of yours & Greg's is sort >of sticking in my craw a bit...I won't go into details, since that's been >beaten pretty hard, but I'm sure that you understand why this would be. I am >giving you the benefit of the doubt, Hugh, because I'm a fan of yours...once >you told me that we all have our blind spots... > >Lovingly (really) > >Julie Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 15:14:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14317 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:14:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16497; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:01:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web217.mail.yahoo.com (web217.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.117]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16396 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:00:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19990417190318.2166.rocketmail@web217.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.205.40.10] by web217.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:03:18 PDT Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:03:18 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce ritchie Subject: Re: soil test To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 712 dear patrick, I can help a little maybe on the soil test. It seems like the bulk density should contain units and not just a number. I do know that the GENERAL assumption is that an average soil has 2 million pounds of soil to the acre. That is an acre down 6 inches (one-half foot) and the acre is somewhere near 43000 sq ft. It would be more exact to find the actual number in a book, and i think it is several hundred sq ft less than 43000 sq ft. I don't know if that bulk density is 1.14 times the norm that I mentioned or what. At 2million pounds to the acre and 43000x1/2ft=approx21500cu. ft at 2million pounds. It is just easier to think of a whole acre than to convert down to a single cubic foot. If you have 2 pounds of boron on one acre, it would be assumed that you had one part per million. If the bulk density were different from that standard, you would have to factor that in. That is why I think your 'bulk density' should contain units, like 1.14 wt./cubic length. I jusst know that most tests assume the 2million to be true. bruce ritchie _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 15:58:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14650 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:58:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20142; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:45:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from news1.infoave.net (news1.InfoAve.Net [165.166.15.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20063 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:44:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by news1.infoave.net; id AA12203; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:48:22 -0400 Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:48:22 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990417154654.2407f088@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: Too Much Cc: bdnow@envirolink.org Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 713 At 11:10 AM 4/11/99 EDT, Lilipoh@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 99-04-10 00:53:59 EDT, you write: > ><< Each farm and each garden can be a place of deepening spiritual practice. >It can, in fact, through its spiritual character have a huge effect on the >surrounding region. >> > >Dear Friends, >For years I struggled with a statement once overheard that BD is actually >"holding the earth back..." The following quote is from Rudolf Steiner's >"Etherization of the Blood" (1911): > >"If we look into early post-Atlantean times, we find that men built their >dwelling-places by methods very different from those used in modern life. In >those days they made use of all kinds of growing things. Even when building >palaces they summoned nature to their aid by utilising plants interlaced with >branches of trees and so on, whereas today men must build with broken >fragments. All the culture of the external world is contrived with the aid of >products of fragmentation. And in the course of the coming years you will >realise even more clearly how much in our civilised life is the outcome of >destruction. >Light itself is being destroyed in this post-Atlantean age of the Earth's >existence, which until the time of Atlantis was a progressive process. Since >then it has been a process of decay. What is light? Light decays and the >decaying light is electricity. What we know as electricity is light that is >being destroyed in matter. And the chemical force that undergoes a >transformation in the process of Earth evolution is magnetism. Yet a third >force will become active and if electicity seems to work wonders today, this >third force will affect civilisation in a still more miraculous way. The more >of this force we employ, the faster will the Earth tend to become a corpse >and its spiritual part prepare for the Jupiter embodiment. Forces have to be >applied for the purpose of destruction, in order that man may become free of >the Earth and that the Earth's body may fall away. As long as the Earth was >involved in progressive evolution, no such destruction took place, for the >great achievements of electricity can only serve a decaying Earth. Strange as >this sounds, it must gradually become known. By understanding the process of >evolution we shall learn to assess our culture at its true value. We shall >also learn that it is necessary for the Earth to be destroyed, for otherwise >the spiritual could not become free. We shall also learn to value what is >positive, namely the penetration of spiritual forces into our existence on >Earth." > >So, it seems that while chemical manipulations change substance to accelerate >the fall into fragments, biodynamic's role is to spiritualize substance, on >the one hand replicating an earlier time that was given by the Gods ("holding >back"), on the other learning how to create true sustenance and an etheric >environment out of inner development. Also Andrew's point of related "fields" >including medicine and education connotes community or collaboration. What >do you think about this? > >Christine (in Ireland) Dear Christine, I'm sorry I couldn't respond sooner to your message. Since it is still the Easter season, I think it may be appropriate to say the following. I don't believe it is accurate to think of BD as "holding the earth back [from destruction]" and thus "replicating an earlier time that was given by the Gods." On the other hand, I do believe that biodynamics based on "inner development" has a role in creating true sustenance and in spiritualizing the substance of the earth. Rudolf Steiner suggests that the earth is dying and its etheric forces (e.g., light) are "decaying." What does this mean? If one thinks of the etheric, "levitational" forces as having their home in the whole periphery (as physical, gravitational forces have their home in the center of the earth), then every time the etheric forces are individualized into the particular etheric body of a living creature, they become separated from their true "home." This separation, which is also a fragmentation, allows the individual beings to live, but only at the expense of the life of the earth as a whole. One could say this is an egoistic process, and this would be true, but it is also very similar to the process of blossoming and seed formation. When an annual or monocarpic plant blossoms, the mother plant begins to die; its life is perpetuated--if it is fertilized--only through its (many) seeds. The corpse of the mother plant disintegrates and eventually becomes food for armies of microorganisms. This is the fate of everything that is not fertilized; the life of the whole becomes thoroughly fragmented, "atomized." The ethers decay by becoming more and more bound to the individual physical atoms. Light and sound ether then manifest as electricity and magnetism, but also as growth and differentiation within single cells (cf. Robert Becker's work on morphogenesis and regeneration). (The same need for fertilization also applies to perennial or polycarpic plants, it just takes longer. Similarly, plant species that reproduce vegetatively also eventually degenerate and die out unless they become fertilized.) A plant in its vegetative phase is characterized by the great polarity between its root and its shoot. In a flower, however, this external polarity is all but extinguished. A flower is an outward unity, although inwardly it contains a new polarity, especially between the pollen and the ovules. This transformation from outer to inner polarity is analogous to what happens when we use electricity. An electric battery is useful only as long as there is a difference (a polarity) between its positive and negative terminals. As we use the electricity, this outer polarity (the electric potential) gradually disappears and a unitary task is accomplished. At the same time, a new polarity appears: that between ourself and the task, which because of the era of electricity is no longer _our_ task. In using electricity we turn it back into ether (e.g., electric light--which supports our emancipation from nature), but in so doing we destroy a bit of the earth's potential, i.e., some of our mother earth's life. In local areas we can again build up this potential, but there are always inefficiencies in this process, there is always a net loss of potential, which is expressed in the second law of thermodynamics. Each cycle of building and destroying an energy potential results in greater entropy and thus brings the earth closer to death. The earth is dying so that we may live, but if we rightly use our life, we can redeem the earth so that no corpse is left. This is possible, however, only if, as Steiner says, we learn to value "what is positive, namely, the penetration of spiritual forces into our existence on Earth." Just as a plant species cannot perpetuate indefinitely itself unless it is fertilized from without, so too must the earth be fertilized from without. According to Steiner, this process actually began about 2000 years ago and every year it expands further at Eastertime. This process depends absolutely, however, on the role of human beings. Jesus was the first flower of humanity to be fertilized by the cosmic Logos, but now every willing human being can receive a similar spiritual fertilization. "Inner development" consists in preparing for this. And through this process the earth too is redeemed, for each of us carries a piece of the earth with us as our body. When the corpse of Jesus was resurrected from death and decay, the process of spiritualizing the substances of the earth was inititated. The matter of our body is part of mother earth ("matter" derives from Latin "mater" = "mother"). Her life courses in our blood, as well as in the waters of the world. The light of our self-consciousness is based on the ethers freed from our bloodstream (hence the lecture title "The Etherization of the Blood"). How much of our mother earth will become spiritualized and not left behind as a permanent corpse, depends on how many people will consciously allow the Spirit to fertilize the free ethers in their souls and also the free ethers in nature. (We have discussed the free ethers in nature in connection with Lecture Two of the Agriculture Course.) Biodynamics was certainly inaugurated with such things in mind and I also believe that the biodynamic preparations were designed specifically to allow the Spirit to fertilize and bring new life to the earth, but I have not yet worked out all the details. Sincerely yours, Malcolm Ian Gardner From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 18:30:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA15827 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 18:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02647; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 18:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02437 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 18:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from digisys.net (modem99.digisys.net [205.138.110.148]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA05504 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:19:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <371908F3.81996E3C@digisys.net> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:19:32 -0600 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" Subject: [Fwd: then what....an apologyf] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7AE561CE226455FE868E7692" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 714 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7AE561CE226455FE868E7692 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, I thought it curious that Hugh's e-mail is dated April 17, 1989 instead of 1999. I wonder where along the line the 1989 came into being. Pat Hironimus --------------7AE561CE226455FE868E7692 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA15941 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:08:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11188; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:04:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11042 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max11-32.stc.net [208.210.136.32]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA08699 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003201be88e5$5cabbdc0$944b2e9c@oemcomputer> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1989 12:34:43 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: then what....an apologyf Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN >Dear Hugh, > >I'd like to comment on this discussion. I have to say that perhaps a clearer >distinction between radionics as a methodology, and the cosmic pipe, itself >should be established. > >I am still a newbie to the entire BD school of thought, and as you know, am >still trying to understand why it is that there is such a distinct division >between those in this community on the validity of radionics. Michael Fields >Institute gives it no credibility, and Demeter does not endorse it either. >(As you know this surprised me...since BOTH smack of downright MAGIC to >me!:-)) Dear Julie, et. al., I hardly know where to start. Several years ago Walter Goldstein told me point blank that he thought radionics was Ahrimanic and that it worked with the forces of subnature. He didn't feel at all comfortable with it--not because it didn't work, but because it did. Herbert Koepf has long been an opponent of radionics, dowsing and anything related. He has made a considerable impression on his students at Emerson College in this regard. I get the feeling that many of Christ's miracles wouldn't have been approved of, especially his healing at a distance. Shucks, 14 years ago when I showed my brother--who at that time was working as a nuclear engineer--my Hieronymus Analyzer, he said, "If you say anything more about it I'll get mad." Well, pretty obviously he already was mad. I took my instrument back out to the car and have never mentioned it to him again. When I offered to show it to Mary Lee Plumb-Mentjes she didn't want to see it and actually shook from fright she was so stirred up. I find these things to be nothing short of amazing. What goes on in peoples' minds? >From my point of view, however, energy follows thought. A radionic instrument really requires a conscious operator. It's an instrument just as a transit or a telescope is. It must have an operator. Even for a cosmic pipe to operate I go to great lengths to get people to program it with their written intents in the well and clearly defined property boundaries. I think it is a whole lot less Ahrimanic than tractors and spray rigs. All that heavy machinery is about as Ahrimanic as it gets. A cosmic pipe is unlike most of what is classified as radionic instruments. It doesn't do treatment at a distance (also known as teletherapy). It works directly in place on the local ether fields of soil and atmosphere, and it is self-driven. Because the BD preps are such potently charged reagents they draw in a stream of ether, which the pipe amplifies and broadcasts. This is life forces streaming into the solar system from the edges of the universe through the various planetary vortices and through the Earth. You won't see this kind of energy when you're focusing your eyes at it because it isn't visible to the eyes themselves. Rather it must be seen with the mind's eye. It seems to help if you get your physical vision a little unfocused. It's like seeing people's auras. It is not impossible to do and it isn't something that just a few mutant freaks can do. Most people will grant that they have an aura, but they aren't accustomed to seeing it. But really there's quite a lot of energy phenomena out there that we're not accustomed to seeing. It's something we ought to be teaching our kids to do as second nature. > >I have to tell you that from the very limited understanding of the entire >pipe thing...well, it seems to me that, for example, Claire Hall's method of >walking the boundaries of her farm sprinkling the preps, seems an even more >economical & natural way of getting them out there in the fields. I DID >worry about the compaction, machinery expenses, etc. of spraying the fields, >but after reading the theory behind the cosmic pipe & broadcasting in this >way...well, it seems that getting out there as Claire does, and really >interracting (she says it is a gift she offers her farm) with it seems very >loving & personal, which appeals to me a great deal. I like Claire Hall's methods. It is much more important than most people realize to establish clear boundaries to the farm. With well estabalished boundaries the farm organism can build up its energies and work as an organic whole. Without good boundaries it will not build up its energies nearly so well. I don't think it matters so much HOW we do our prep applications as long as we DO do them all regularly. > >I admit I am a gadget freak...and seeing Lorraine's cool little black box at >the UMOFC truly intrigued me...I am very interested in radionics, and >learning more about it, certainly before investing in the cosmic >pipe...correct me, but I think the ads in ACRES quote a $450 price tag + the >regeant package for $75 more, and I gotta tell you, for a small farm >operation on a shoestring budget, its alot. They were on sale for $450, but the going price is $495 and the reagents are included in that. Compared to the price tag on a 60 gallon sprayer, which cost me around $900 when I got the nozzles I needed, a Cosmic Pipe is pretty cheap. I don't see how dairy farmers in Wisconsin with $9 per hundredweight milk prices can afford even a new pair of rubber boots. As for Greg and myself in alignment, I think he and I are both surprised that our thinking runs on such similar tracks. I tried his horn clay and was simply amazed at what it did. When we put it in our home pipe, Lorraine exclaimed, "Did you feel that?" Well I certainly did. I believe most anyone would have. It was very noticeable--a kind of a whoosh that I felt most strongly in my heart chakra. Greg was very skeptical on first exposure to the cosmic pipe--until he saw one in operation and saw what it did for the vineyards he installed them in. But neither of us are arm-chair theorists philosophizing about the relative merits of things we haven't any first hand experience with. We're practical doers who depend on getting results for our livelihood. We have to get outstanding results and when we find ways to do that we go for it. Personal likes or dislikes have to take a back seat. Greg may thrive on controversy while I try to avoid it. Those are personal preferences. But when it comes to what gets the best BD responses in the field we are going to embrace what works, personal differences aside. As for promising incredibly dramatic results, I'm in favor of skepticism and caution myself. There are definitely enough snake oil salesmen out there. The fellow selling carbon has always struck me as the type, but there are people that swear by his product and it IS important to get carbon levels up in low organic matter soils. It sure would take a lot of extra bales of hay to make up for 5,000 dollars though. Best regards, Hugh >Investing in ANYTHING that >promises such incredibly dramatic results should be done very carefully >(cite certain other ACRES ads...jeez, $5000 to "carbonize" my hayfield!) > >And of course this mutual alignment & endorsement of yours & Greg's is sort >of sticking in my craw a bit...I won't go into details, since that's been >beaten pretty hard, but I'm sure that you understand why this would be. I am >giving you the benefit of the doubt, Hugh, because I'm a fan of yours...once >you told me that we all have our blind spots... > >Lovingly (really) > >Julie Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi --------------7AE561CE226455FE868E7692-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 18:42:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA15904 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 18:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03968; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 18:29:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03754 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 18:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (cust30.nrvmax3.tor1.netrover.com [205.209.27.30]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA25735 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 18:31:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: Re: Too , .....Much Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 18:35:23 -0400 Message-ID: <01be8922$956d1540$LocalHost@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 715 Dear Malcom : Not being as familiar with the Steiner lectures as you, i really appreciate your sequential description of the forces/elements at work in the world where we live. If i may touch on a pivotal point (for me): Accepting the premise that the "resurrection" of a physical body was/is a possibility for any persons qualified- through their sum total of living Substance-, and that that precedent was established for anyone living after the one called Jesu, i nevertheless have to ask how you understand this to be possible if in fact Jesu's body actually "died "--- as in -- the silver cord being loosed, or the golden bowl broken? In my perception/belief, either of these would preclude the ongoing process of resurrection.... requiring a viable connection through which to continue to work its wonders. In other words, did His individual body die? Or is this "die" just the common wordusage in order not to ruffle anyone's accepted religious/spiritual precepts which makes him so special that "we, mere mortals", could only blasphemously entertain such identity? I submit, as others do, that it did not quite actually die... and that this "fact" makes it possible for anyone to participate in the process which was thereby initiated for this current cycle. (Otherwise the statements attributed to him : "follow me", "do as I do", "and greater works shall ye do", "and I, if I be lift up, shall draw all ........" would be relatively hopeless/meaningless in our experience on earth) If you agree with the spirit of this distinction, could you clothe this premise in your favorite words, incorporating your description of the forces at work in this (ongoing) collective-Body event? ..especially as it relates to our valid work with the preps and principles in these turbulent times. sincerely........ manfred palmer Malcom Ian Gardner wrote in part : And through this process the >earth too is redeemed, for each of us carries a piece of the earth with us >as our body. When the corpse of Jesus was resurrected from death and decay, >the process of spiritualizing the substances of the earth was inititated. >The matter of our body is part of mother earth ("matter" derives from Latin >"mater" = "mother"). Her life courses in our blood, as well as in the >waters of the world. The light of our self-consciousness is based on the >ethers freed from our bloodstream (hence the lecture title "The Etherization >of the Blood"). How much of our mother earth will become spiritualized and >not left behind as a permanent corpse, depends on how many people will >consciously allow the Spirit to fertilize the free ethers in their souls and >also the free ethers in nature. (We have discussed the free ethers in >nature in connection with Lecture Two of the Agriculture Course.) >Biodynamics was certainly inaugurated with such things in mind and I also >believe that the biodynamic preparations were designed specifically to allow >the Spirit to fertilize and bring new life to the earth, but I have not yet >worked out all the details. > >Sincerely yours, >Malcolm Ian Gardner > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 17 21:16:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17263 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 21:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17328; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 21:01:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12734 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 20:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max3-26.stc.net [208.210.132.26]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA03282 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 20:10:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990417154654.2407f088@swva.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1989 18:49:22 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Too Much Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 716 >Biodynamics was certainly inaugurated with such things in mind and I also >believe that the biodynamic preparations were designed specifically to allow >the Spirit to fertilize and bring new life to the earth, but I have not yet >worked out all the details. > >Sincerely yours, >Malcolm Ian Gardner Ever so right, Malcolm. The way I perceive it is the biodynamic preparations draw in ether streams from the periphery that otherwise wouldn't particularly impinge on the Earth. And they draw upward, levitationally on plants and people. Outside of anthroposophical medicine this is some of the most miraculous stuff Rudolf Steiner did. I don't mean to discount eurythmy and the Camphill work and all the rest. I myself did a couple years of very interesting work with biofeedback psychology that Steiner probably would have been very interested in. What bugs me is true believerism. I have trouble with biodynamics as a true faith. I think folks ought to get ahold of it as a part of their real, down-to-earth experience that they have a solid grasp of and can work with. I realize that the way BD preps work is counter intuitive to the mindset of physical science. I studied that mindset in college and I'm well-versed in it, but there's more that isn't taught in the schools. Nature is the great expositor. Nature is full of lessons. And this is what I draw from to teach BD. Everyone ought to have their own unique twist to the BD on their own farm. If they work with it and understand it they'll find the best ways for doing it for their individual circumstances. The grand forces that Rudolf Steiner saw and tried to prepare us for are working and available to all. It's a good question as to how many will pick up on BD and do anything with it. The idea that everyone must pass some kind of a anthroposophical litmus test before the "secrets of BD" are revealed is absurd. All one has to know is that it works. Then they can go from there. There's sure a lot of garbage in circulation. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 18 00:17:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA18858 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 00:17:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA29680; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 00:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA28539 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:50:10 -0400 (EDT) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id hTXBa06123 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9d1186f5.244ab112@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:52:50 EDT Subject: Re: Too Much To: BDnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 717 Dear Hugh, We love you Hugh even though you use cosmic pipes and other Ahrimanic devices! Life is not perfect or fair and everyone I meet doesn't always agree with me. I may be wrong but in recently revised Demeter guidelines cosmic pipes are allowed with the guidance of expert advice for beginners. Anybody out there please bring me up to speed if I am wrong . I seem to have misplaced my revised guidelines. I choose not to use the pipe for I want to experience the preparations without any other complications. There are near infinate vectors influencing plant growth and throwing in another influence is beyond my sensitivity. Warmest Regards, Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 18 01:55:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA19765 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 01:55:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA05727; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 01:42:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.fastinternet.net.au (root@ns.fastinternet.net.au [203.37.167.131]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA05693 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 01:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rsdwat (cwn135-201.fastinternet.net.au [203.37.172.201]) by ns.fastinternet.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA01626 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:55:43 +1000 Message-ID: <002401be8960$74d78660$c9ac25cb@rsdwat> From: "sally & robert watson" To: Subject: Re: soil test Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:55:30 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 718 -----Original Message----- From: PatandLiz@aol.com To: BDnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, April 17, 1999 11:07 Subject: soil test > > Anybody out there willing to give their 2 cents on this soil sample? >Average rainfall is 80" a year with average soil temperature 70 degrees. Bulk >density is 1.14. What is the formula for the conversion from ppm to lbs. per >acre? Thank you for any input. Regards, Patrick > >ph - 4.5 >Organic Carbon - 3.7% >N - 0.33 % >P - 3.3 ppm >K - 56 ppm >Ca - 62 ppm >Mg - 70 ppm >B - 0.39 ppm >Fe - 103 ppm >Zn - 0.8 ppm >Mn - 12 ppm >Cu - 1.9 ppm I think this is correct its been a long time since I've worked this out. ppm = mg/kg in 1 Ha =1000m3 soil in the top 100 mm bulk density = 1.14 Mg/m3 therefore in 1 Ha there is 1140000 kg soil Therefore 1 ppm = 1.14 kg/ Ha or approx 1.3 pounds per acre IMHO you are very low in lime probably Ca and Mg Apply some lime and the preps and perhaps a little fish emulsion to get the biology going and see what has been released in a soil test next year. Robert Watson rsdwat@fastinternet.net.au From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 18 06:16:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA21334 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 06:16:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA13652; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 06:03:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA13584 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 06:02:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max3-18.stc.net [208.210.132.18]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA28227 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 06:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9d1186f5.244ab112@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1989 04:45:01 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Too Much Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 719 >Dear Hugh, > > We love you Hugh even though you use cosmic pipes and other Ahrimanic >devices! Life is not perfect or fair and everyone I meet doesn't always >agree with me. I may be wrong but in recently revised Demeter guidelines >cosmic pipes are allowed with the guidance of expert advice for beginners. >Anybody out there please bring me up to speed if I am wrong . I seem to have >misplaced my revised guidelines. I choose not to use the pipe for I want to >experience the preparations without any other complications. There are near >infinate vectors influencing plant growth and throwing in another influence >is beyond my sensitivity. > >Warmest Regards, Patrick Dear Patrick, I've spoken with Anne Mendenhall on the subject. She's indicated that Demeter guidelines approve of cosmic pipes as long as that is not the only way the preps are applied on a farm. Last year was the first time I used the cosmic pipe exclusively to apply my preps. In my urban garden in Atlanta I used a cosmic pipe exclusively for two years. So far as I could tell the cosmic pipe got the preps out there like I've never seen physical spraying do. I don't have a problem with Demeter, nor do I want Demeter certification. I learned a lot from the Demeter guidelines way back when and I respect the Demeter label. I buy Demeter when I can too. But more than Demeter, I go for the most BD I can find, and I'm not particularly happy to say it's my own stuff. I wish there was a lot more out there like it. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 18 06:28:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA21393 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 06:28:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA14188; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 06:16:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA14012 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 06:12:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.86] (max3-18.stc.net [208.210.132.18]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA28348 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 06:16:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1989 04:55:40 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: About the date Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 720 Hello Everyone, I thought it curious that Hugh's e-mail is dated April 17, 1989 instead of 1999. I wonder where along the line the 1989 came into being. Pat Hironimus Dear Pat, et. al., I reset my computer clock on the premise that Y2K wouldn't bug me that way. I figured people would know the difference, but the computer wouldn't. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "To a frog that's never left his pond the ocean seems like a gamble. Look what he's giving up: security, mastery of his world, recognition! The ocean frog just shakes his head. "I can't really explain what it's like where I live, but someday I'll take you there." --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 18 10:31:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25057 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:31:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25700; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:18:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25614 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:17:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.22]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:25:23 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:21:36 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: April 18, 1999 - April 24, 1999 Message-ID: <1EF3CB4F7EB733AA85256757004EDB05.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id KAA25616 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 721 Calendar of the Soul [April 18, 1999 - April 24, 1999] Third Week (April 21-27) Thus to the World-All speaks, In self-forgetfulness And mindful of its primal state, The growing human I: In you, if I can free myself From fetters of my selfhood, I fathom my essential being. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Es spricht zum Weltenall, Sich selbst vergessend Und seines Urstands eingedenk, Des Menschen wachsend Ich: In dir, befreiend mich Aus meiner Eigenheiten Fessel, Ergründe ich mein echtes Wesen. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+03 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 18 10:34:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25085 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:34:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25862; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:21:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25746 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:19:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.22]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:27:04 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:23:16 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: April 11, 1999 - April 17, 1999 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id KAA25749 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 722 (I guess I didn't notice that they posted the same verse two weeks in a row, hence the two diff. postings today) Frankly, I thought Malcolm's 'Easter' message yesterday was much more inspiring! JS Calendar of the Soul [April 11, 1999 - April 17, 1999] Second Week (April 14-20) Out in the sense-world's glory The power of thought gives up its separate being, And spirit worlds discover Again their human offspring, Who germinates in them But in itself must find The fruit of soul. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Ins Äussre des Sinnesalls Verliert Gedankenmacht ihr Eigensein; Es finden Geisteswelten Den Menschensprossen wieder, Der Seinen Keim in ihnen, Doch seine Seelenfrucht In sich muss finden. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+02 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 18 11:34:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25602 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00410; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:21:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00316 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.21.119]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sun, 18 Apr 1999 16:25:45 +0100 Message-ID: <3719F892.2400@cwcom.net> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 16:21:54 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: About the date References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 723 Hugh - did you know that the calendar (dates and days) for 1972 is said to be identical to that for 2000? If you want to reset your computer clock to avoid possible Y2K complications, that would seem the most appropriate year to choose. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 18 12:31:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26253 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:31:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07678; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:18:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07430 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:16:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.137.8] (max8-8.stc.net [208.210.134.136]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA16812 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:20:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1EF3CB4F7EB733AA85256757004EDB05.0000000000000000@webcity> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1989 10:59:33 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: COTS: April 18, 1999 - April 24, 1999 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA07436 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 724 Es spricht zum Weltenall, Sich selbst vergessend Und seines Urstands eingedenk, Des Menschen wachsend Ich: In dir, befreiend mich Aus meiner Eigenheiten Fessel, Ergründe ich mein echtes Wesen. ________________ Dear Jane, For those of us who sprechen Deutsch, this is always a nice touch. Keep it up. Best, Hugh Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 18 18:15:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA01177 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15813; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:02:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA12897 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:42:37 -0400 (EDT) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id hIFFa00792 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:45:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <299ec044.244bac63@aol.com> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:45:07 EDT Subject: Re: soil test To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 725 Thanks Robert I'll try it out. Hmmm...meters to feet and kgs to lbs. This will be fun. Regards, Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 18 18:15:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA01185 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:15:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15669; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:01:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA12892 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:42:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.137.8] (max11-41.stc.net [208.210.136.41]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA09609 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:46:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3719F892.2400@cwcom.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1989 16:24:02 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: About the date Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 726 >Hugh - did you know that the calendar (dates and days) for 1972 is said >to be identical to that for 2000? If you want to reset your computer >clock to avoid possible Y2K complications, that would seem the most >appropriate year to choose. Tony N-S. I'll sure think about it. Best Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 18 18:17:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA01293 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:17:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16368; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15588 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:01:42 -0400 (EDT) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id hGOGa18184 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:04:44 EDT Subject: Re: soil test To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 727 Dear Bruce, Yes the bulk density was assigned a measurement, it was g/cc. Weight over cubic length? Thanks for your help. The local soil conservation office is a wealth of information. There is a table explaning the soil type and series. For instance all parent rock materials that make the soil sample. Micas 15%, Kaolinites 5%, Gibbsite,15%, Goethite 25%, Magnetite 20%, Anastase 10%, and Quartz 5%. With information like this one can really get quite "close" to understanding conditions for plant growth. Regards, Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 18 20:54:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA04348 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:54:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05794; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:40:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA05667 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:39:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.23]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:47:07 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:43:13 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Peace Seeds Peace Seeds Message-ID: <1408C3FD0D9BD040852567580003EB9E.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 728 Peace Seeds represent the twelve prayers for peace prayed in Assisi, Italy on the Day of Prayer for World Peace during the United Nations International Year of Peace, 1986. The Prayers were brought to the United States and entrusted to the care of the children at The Life Experience School. "Like the bee gathering honey from the different flowers, the wise person accepts the essence of the different scriptures and sees only the good in all religions." --- Mahatma Gandhi 1. THE HINDU PRAYER FOR PEACE Oh God, lead us from the unreal to the Real. Oh God, lead us from darkness to light. Oh God, lead us from death to immortality. Shanti, Shanti, Shanti unto all. Oh Lord God almighty, may there be peace in celestial regions. May there be peace on earth. May the waters be appeasing. May herbs be wholesome, and may trees and plants bring peace to all. May all beneficent beings bring peace to us. May thy Vedic Law propagate peace all through the world. May all things be a source of peace to us. And may thy peace itself, bestow peace on all, and may that peace come to me also. 2. THE BUDDHIST PRAYER FOR PEACE May all beings everywhere plagued with sufferings of body and mind quickly be freed from their illnesses. May those frightened cease to be afraid, and may those bound be free. May the powerless find power, and may people think of befriending one another. May those who find themselves in trackless, fearful wildernesses - the children, the aged, the unprotected - be guarded by beneficent celestials, and may they swiftly attain Buddhahood. 3. THE JAINIST PRAYER FOR PEACE Peace and Universal Love is the essence of the Gospel preached by all the Enlightened Ones. The Lord has preached that equanimity is the Dharma. Forgive do I creatures all, and let all creatures forgive me. Unto all have I amity, and unto none enmity. Know that violence is the root cause of all miseries in the world. Violence, in fact, is the knot of bondage. "Do not injure any living being." This is the eternal, perennial, and unalterable way of spiritual life. A weapon howsoever powerful it may be, can always be superseded by a superior one; but no weapon can, however, be superior to non-violence and love. 4. THE MUSLIM PRAYER FOR PEACE In the name of Allah, the beneficent, the merciful. Praise be to the Lord of the Universe who has created us and made us into tribes and nations, that we may know each other, not that we may despise each other. If the enemy incline towards peace, do thou also incline towards peace, and trust in God, for the Lord is the one that heareth and knoweth all things. And the servants of God, Most Gracious are those who walk on the Earth in humility, and when we address them, we say "PEACE." 5. THE SIKH PRAYER FOR PEACE "God adjudges us according to our deeds, not the coat that we wear: that Truth is above everything, but higher still is truthful living. "Know that we attaineth God when we loveth, and only that victory endures in consequence of which no one is defeated." 6. THE BAHAI' PRAYER FOR PEACE Be generous in prosperity, and thankful in adversity. Be fair in thy judgement, and guarded in thy speech. Be a lamp unto those who walk in darkness, and a home to the stranger. Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring. Be a breath of life to the body of humankind, a dew to the soil of the human heart, and a fruit upon the tree of humility. 7. THE SHINTO PRAYER FOR PEACE "Although the people living across the ocean surrounding us, I believe, are all our brothers and sisters, why are there constant troubles in this world? Why do winds and waves rise in the ocean surrounding us? I only earnestly wish that the wind will soon puff away all the clouds which are hanging over the tops of the mountains." 8. THE NATIVE AFRICAN PRAYER FOR PEACE Almighty God, the Great Thumb we cannot evade to tie any knot; the Roaring Thunder that splits mighty trees: the all-seeing Lord up on high who sees even the footprints of an antelope on a rockmass here on Earth. You are the one who does not hesitate to respond to our call. You are the cornerstone of peace. 9. THE NATIVE AMERICAN PRAYER FOR PEACE O Great Spirit of our Ancestors, I raise my pipe to you. To your messengers the four winds, and to Mother Earth who provides for your children. Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love, to respect, and to be kind to each other so that they may grow with peace in mind. Let us learn to share all the good things that you provide for us on this Earth. 10. THE ZOROASTRIAN PRAYER FOR PEACE We pray to God to eradicate all the misery in the world: that understanding triumph over ignorance, that generosity triumph over indifference, that trust triumph over contempt, and that truth triumph over falsehood. 11. THE JEWISH PRAYER FOR PEACE Come let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, that we may walk the paths of the Most High. And we shall beat our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation - neither shall they learn war any more. And none shall be afraid, for the mouth of the Lord of Hosts has spoken. 12. THE CHRISTIAN PRAYER FOR PEACE "Blessed are the PEACEMAKERS, for they shall be known as the Children of God. But I say to you that hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To those who strike you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from those who take away your cloak, do not withhold your coat as well. Give to everyone who begs from you, and of those who take away your goods, do not ask them again. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them." Peace Seeds are distributed by the children at The Life Experience School under the care and direction of The Peace Abbey, 2 North Main St., Sherborn, MA 01770. 508-650-3659 Fax 655-5031 We'd love to hear from you! --------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent from "The Peace Room" at: http://nodes.net?Peace,Room,guest From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 18 21:42:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA04796 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 21:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12580; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 21:28:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12380 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 21:27:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.17]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 21:34:39 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 21:30:44 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Friends Message-ID: <095D105F3E27ACC48525675800061B53.0007BBF685256758@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 729 Dear Friends at Bd-Now, I don't normally go in for chain letters but this struck a chord with me tonight when I received it from my sister. It reminded me of something from long ago. When I was younger I had a friend with whom I shared my nightime dreams as she did hers with me. So often I thought to myself as she recounted her tales, that she must be making that stuff up, they were so fantastic and she had a tendency to exaggeration. But over the course of our friendship, I came to understand that with dreams as with strivings that whatever the imagination can create (as Hugh is so fond of saying) gives us a great chance and opportunity for manifestation! Many Blessings to you all and thank you for the riches I receive here countless time and again! Jane Sherry --------------------------------- Happy Friendship Week ... a great story, and a great message at the end (make sure you scroll to the end!) THE OLD FISHERMAN Our house was directly across the street from the clinic entrance of Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore. We lived downstairs and rented the upstairs rooms to out patients at the clinic. One summer evening as I was fixing supper, there was a knock at the door. I opened it to see a truly awful looking man. "Why, he's hardly taller than my eight-year-old," I thought as I stared at the stooped, shriveled body. But the appalling thing was his face-lopsided from swelling, red and raw. Yet his voice was pleasant as he said, "Good evening. I've come to see if you've a room for just one night. I came for a treatment this morning from the eastern shore, and there's no bus 'til morning." He told me he'd been hunting for a room since noon but with no success, no one seemed to have a room. "I guess it's my face...I know it looks terrible, but my doctor says with a few more treatments..." For a moment I hesitated, but his next words convinced me: "I could sleep in this rocking chair on the porch. My bus leaves early in the morning." I told him we would find him a bed, but to rest on the porch. I went inside and finished getting supper. When we were ready, I asked the old man if he would join us. "No thank you. I have plenty." And he held up a brown paper bag. When I had finished the dishes, I went out on the porch to talk with him a few minutes. It didn't take long time to see that this old man had an oversized heart crowded into that tiny body. He told me he fished for a living to support his daughter, her five children, and her husband, who was hopelessly crippled from a back injury. He didn't tell it by way of complaint; in fact, every other sentence was preface with a thanks to God for a blessing. He was grateful that no pain accompanied his disease, which was apparently a form of skin cancer. He thanked God for giving him the strength to keep going. At bedtime, we put a camp cot in the children's room for him. When I got up in the morning, the bed linens were neatly folded and the little man was out on the porch. He refused breakfast, but just before he left for his bus, haltingly, as if asking a great favor, he said, "Could I please come back and stay the next time I have a treatment? I won't put you out a bit. I can sleep fine in a chair." He paused a moment and then added, "Your children made me feel at home. Grownups are bothered by my face, but children don't seem to mind." I told him he was welcome to come again. And on his next trip he arrived a little after seven in the morning. As a gift, he brought a big fish and a quart of the largest oysters I had ever seen. He said he had shucked them that morning before he left so that they'd be nice and fresh. I knew his bus left at 4:00 a.m. and I wondered what time he had to get up in order to do this for us. In the years he came to stay overnight with us there was never a time that he did not bring us fish or oysters or vegetables from his garden. Other times we received packages in the mail,always by special delivery; fish and oysters packed in a box of fresh young spinach or kale, every leaf carefully washed. Knowing that he must walk three miles to mail these, and knowing how little money he had made the gifts doubly precious. When I received these little remembrances, I often thought of a comment our next-door neighbor made after he left that first morning. "Did you keep that awful looking man last night? I turned him away! You can lose roomers by putting up such people!" Maybe we did lose roomers once or twice. But oh! If only they could have known him, perhaps their illness' would have been easier to bear. I know our family always will be grateful to have known him; from him we learned what it was to accept the bad without complaint and the good with gratitude to God. Recently I was visiting a friend who has a greenhouse, As she showed me her flowers, we came to the most beautiful one of all, a golden chrysanthemum, bursting with blooms. But to my great surprise, it was growing in an old dented, rusty bucket. I thought to myself, "If this were my plant, I'd put it in the loveliest container I had!" My friend changed my mind. "I ran short of pots," she explained, "and knowing how beautiful this one would be, I thought it wouldn't mind starting out in this old pail. It's just for a little while, till I can put it out in the garden." She must have wondered why I laughed so delightedly, but I was imagining just such a scene in heaven. "Here's an especially beautiful one," God might have said when he came to the soul of the sweet old fisherman. "He won't mind starting in this small body." All this happened long ago-and now, in God's garden, how tall this lovely soul must stand. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." (1 Samuel 16:7b) *** If this has blessed you, PLEASE PASS IT ON *** KEEP SCROLLING TILL THE END!!! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The star catcher grinned and whispered a plan, "I'll catch all the stars that I possibly can. Then give them to all of my friends so they will truly see how sparkling and special they are to me." * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Keep Scrolling.... * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Like each individual star.... Your friendship is a bright spot! It's National Friendship Week *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Friends are very special. They make you smile and encourage you to succeed. They lend an ear and they share a word of praise. know your friends how much you care.... Send this to everyone you consider a FRIEND. ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* If it comes back to you, then you'll know you have a friend for life. ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Let's show our friends how much we appreciate them and what they mean to us.. Happy Friendship Week Pass this on, and brighten someone's day. Nothing will happen if you do not decide to pass it along. The only thing that will happen, if you DO pass it on, is that someone might smile (because of you). Make someone smile, and let them know how special they are to you. :-) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 08:41:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA09575 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:41:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00870; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:28:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00629 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:25:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B7ED4D@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 8:29:20 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 19 Apr 99 08:29:35 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 19 Apr 99 08:29:26 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:29:18 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: worms Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000a01be88ed$2da705e0$1cfa98cb@ruicaish> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <30EBD8511E3@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 730 > Hi all, > > What type of worms are the best for compost and where do I get them? > I have in the past got tiger worms from the bait shop but I am not so sure > that these are the right sort. They seem to be very delicate and die off as > soon as the compost dries out a bit or there is not much fresh food in it. > Should I keep my compost heap covered (it has a piece of carpet covering it > at the moment), should I water the heap? > > Vincent. Hi Vincent, I'm sure that Hugh's instinct to get a variety of worms is a good one. Just thought that you might like to know that according to the reading I've done on the subject (vermiculture), the California Red Worm (don't know the Latin name) was identified as the most suitable (most voratious, hardy, and less likely to stray) for intensive worm composting. Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 09:26:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA10184 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05810; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:12:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05563 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:10:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([208.138.96.28]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:18:31 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:14:30 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: worms Message-ID: <933604D7E4550CAA852567580048AAC0.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 731 Frank posted a great bit of info on worms on the 17th...which is in the archives for anyone who missed it. (http://csf.colorado.edu/archive/1999/bdnow/msg02072.html) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 09:37:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA10338 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07375; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:24:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yancey.main.nc.us (yancey.main.nc.us [209.192.111.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07124 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from donnas (ppp11.yancey.main.nc.us [209.192.111.142]) by yancey.main.nc.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26407 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:27:57 -0400 Message-ID: <000401be8a67$17294dc0$8e6fc0d1@donnas> From: "donnas" To: Subject: Re: worms Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:04:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 732 I have been told by everyone that I have asked about introducing worms into the compost........ that the worms one can buy for vermiculture are not the type that will survive outside in the ground or in a compost pile, and that I would have to have a "worm bin" in a area where the temperature could be controlled.......not too hot nor too cold....... like in the house. It seemed to me that this variety or any variety of worms have to originally come from living in the earth and so one would think that some , if not all, would do just fine in a compost pile or better in a compost pit. But at any rate I have not been able to get a definitive answer and so have not bought worms specifically for my compost pit. A few years ago I had access to waste from a Shitake mushroom farm (which has since gone out of business) and spreading that around my garden, I noticed there were worms in every shovel of soil. Now I am not seeing worms, but I have sprayed with BC as well as beginning to use my first batch of BD compost made with the preps and I hope to see the return of the worm. I also thought that very small tunneling creatures (I have not identified them, but they are ubiquitous) might be eating all the worms. Donaterra "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts".........Einstein From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 09:53:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA10561 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10623; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:40:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10200 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 25981 invoked from network); 19 Apr 1999 13:42:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (205.205.31.42) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 19 Apr 1999 13:42:47 -0000 Message-ID: <008601be8a69$de1a0940$e9a0cdcd@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Weeds, or, why clean cultivate? Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:38:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 733 Hugh wrote: >If you >clean cultivate everything so that all you have is potatoes or corn or >beans with bare soil all around you'll starve and dry up your earthworms. >If you garden in beds, say 40 inches wide and surround these beds in a sod >of grass, clover and herbs like dandelion, yarrow, plantain, etc. you can >mow this every week or so and leave the clipping for the earthworms to eat. >They'll thrive on this steady smorgasbord and you'll be growing your garden >into fertility. And mowing is losts easier than hoeing. It beats me how so >many folks want to have bare soil everywhere in their gardens. It baffles >me brainless. Clover, folks! Clover! get your nitrogen from the air for >free... I think clean cultivation originates with the need to control weeds, particularly invasive weeds such as quackgrass (Agropyron repens) and others.... Eliot Coleman in the New Organic Grower extolls the virtues of weed control thru cultivation, but also the value of undersowing cover crops......such as clover.... I have quackgrass in and around my garden, the elimination of which by mulch is problematic, by mowing unlikely, and by proper digging out of every rhizome a major project....it can grow more than 100 feet of stolons in a single season.... In the debate occuring after the publication of Edward Faulkner's Plowman's Folly, the response of JI Rodale, which can be found in Paydirt, was centered on the virtues of plowing for weed control.... Also, I like to leave some areas of bare earth as dustbaths for the birds, who take great pleasure in it and doubtless eliminate parasites via dry clay therapy.... Grass areas bordering gardens should be edged regularly to keep the grass from invading.... Frank---not a clean cultivator by choice, he leaves dandelions in many places, but rogues out the quackgrass with prejudice....(although it can be dried and used as a slug deterent....) Also creeping charlie is a plague and a nuisance.....(but calming when made into tea...:-) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 10:09:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10818 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13060; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:56:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12642 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:53:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 9254 invoked from network); 19 Apr 1999 13:57:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (205.205.31.42) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 19 Apr 1999 13:57:08 -0000 Message-ID: <008d01be8a6b$df248980$e9a0cdcd@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: worms Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:52:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 734 Our experience (mine and several others here in Canada) is that in large compost piles worms do indeed survive through the winters, and multiply heavily in our composts. My piles are 4 foot cubes, primarily based on a feedstock of leaves.... Hugh's earlier comment regarding the mutation (or adaptation) of corn seems also to apply to worms; it has been noted that redworm populations take some time to adapt to a new matrix, then take off after the adaptation is made. In a conversation I had with Edith Smeesters, she confirmed that worms seem to take up residence in compost piles here in Quebec, without being introduced. Worm taxonomy being difficult, it is not possible for me to tell you at this time whether these worms are Eisenia fetida or some other worm or worms..... However worm farms in Ontario do overwinter worms in insulated pits, so I suggest that adding a few pounds of extra worms from your bins, to a large composter outdoors, may furnish you with a pleasant surprise in a year or two, as it has for us here in Montreal, Ottawa, and the Kootenays..... We know that the official freeze-out temperature for E. fetida is 40 degrees F. In a small bin this may hold true, but in a large bin, with our adapted worms, it seems clearly to be unaccepted by our annelid friends....:-) Frank---noting that young worms and egg casings will be most likely to successfully adapt to new conditions, old worms less so....prolly sumpin' to the saying 'bout can't teach old worms a new matrix....:-) -----Original Message----- From: donnas To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 9:28 AM Subject: Re: worms >I have been told by everyone that I have asked about introducing worms into >the compost........ that the worms one can buy for vermiculture are not the >type that will survive outside in the ground or in a compost pile, and that >I would have to have a "worm bin" in a area where the temperature could be >controlled.......not too hot nor too cold....... like in the house. >It seemed to me that this variety or any variety of worms have to originally >come from living in the earth and so one would think that some , if not >all, would do just fine in a compost pile or better in a compost pit. >But at any rate I have not been able to get a definitive answer and so have >not bought worms specifically for my compost pit. >A few years ago I had access to waste from a Shitake mushroom farm (which >has since gone out of business) and spreading that around my garden, I >noticed there were worms in every shovel of soil. Now I am not seeing >worms, but I have sprayed with BC as well as beginning to use my first >batch of BD compost made with the preps and I hope to see the return of the >worm. >I also thought that very small tunneling creatures (I have not identified >them, but they are ubiquitous) might be eating all the worms. > Donaterra >"Not everything that counts can be counted, >and not everything that can be counted counts".........Einstein > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 10:37:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11313 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:37:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18658; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yancey.main.nc.us (yancey.main.nc.us [209.192.111.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18247 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:23:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from donnas (ppp2.yancey.main.nc.us [209.192.111.133]) by yancey.main.nc.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28880 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:28:09 -0400 Message-ID: <005701be8a6f$7ffc59c0$856fc0d1@donnas> From: "donnas" To: Subject: Re: cosmic pipe Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:18:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 735 Hugh Courtney gave demonstration of using the preps to turn a tree into a cosmic pipe at the Blairsville conference last September. So what are the significant differences between doing this and using the cosmic pipe device that you are saying has dangerous potential? What would be the pitfalls or dangers of using a tree as a cosmic pipe? There was no plot map involved...... only *perhaps* a visualization of property, geography or area to be affected, but I don't really remember that . It seemed to me that the idea was to get the preps broadcast as far as the increased energy field of the tree would reach after burying and attaching the preps. I did this on my property in two locations and by dowsing measured the increase in energy field. On one tall white pine it increased from @ 100 feet to over 1700 feet in radius, and upon remeasure 6 months later still has the larger energy field, which I trust is benefiting ALL within this field. I don't want to encourage argument, just some discussion from anyone with info on this method, bad or good. Donatera From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 10:54:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11818 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:54:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22665; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22452 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:40:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B8171B@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:44:10 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 19 Apr 99 10:44:26 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 19 Apr 99 10:44:25 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:44:20 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: holy communion Priority: normal In-reply-to: <1.5.4.16.19990417154654.2407f088@swva.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <310FD920928@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 736 > When the corpse of Jesus was resurrected from death and decay, > the process of spiritualizing the substances of the earth was inititated. > The matter of our body is part of mother earth ("matter" derives from Latin > "mater" = "mother"). Her life courses in our blood, as well as in the > waters of the world. The light of our self-consciousness is based on the > ethers freed from our bloodstream (hence the lecture title "The Etherization > of the Blood"). How much of our mother earth will become spiritualized and > not left behind as a permanent corpse, depends on how many people will > consciously allow the Spirit to fertilize the free ethers in their souls and > also the free ethers in nature. (We have discussed the free ethers in > nature in connection with Lecture Two of the Agriculture Course.) > Biodynamics was certainly inaugurated with such things in mind and I also > believe that the biodynamic preparations were designed specifically to allow > the Spirit to fertilize and bring new life to the earth, but I have not yet > worked out all the details. > > Sincerely yours, > Malcolm Ian Gardner Just this weekend, I was wondering about the meaning of "communion" in the church with the representations of Christ's body and blood in the wafer and wine/juice. The above helps me to begin an understanding of this. If you have any thoughts on this, please share. Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 12:24:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13328 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:24:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14333; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cougar.ssi.stratus.com (cougar.ssi.stratus.com [198.97.42.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08011 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:44:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by cougar.ssi.stratus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA32308 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:46:02 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3719F892.2400@cwcom.net> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:46:01 -0400 (EDT) Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Charlie Hodgson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: About the date Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 737 On 18-Apr-99 Tony Nelson-Smith wrote: > Hugh - did you know that the calendar (dates and days) for 1972 is said > to be identical to that for 2000? If you want to reset your computer > clock to avoid possible Y2K complications, that would seem the most > appropriate year to choose. Tony N-S. Not on a DOS/Windows machine - 1/1/80 is the earliest date supported. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 13:49:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15135 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05103; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f67.hotmail.com [209.185.131.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04852 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:35:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 78445 invoked by uid 0); 19 Apr 1999 17:38:56 -0000 Message-ID: <19990419173856.78444.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.230.25.27 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:38:56 PDT X-Originating-IP: [205.230.25.27] From: "Connie Gilbert" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Help with Chromatography needed Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:38:56 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 738 >Oh, I see. Quite interesting. So you're saying that paper >chromatography is the old version of a modern technology? As for >beginning chem, all I can recall are negative and positive ions and >that we had a discussion on thermodynamics. Guess I'm in need of a >repeat! > >Anita > > I learned about paper chromatography in beggining chem. but did not use it in the lab until I had organic chemistry. We separated some spinich to isolate the chorophyll. That was 25 years ago, I still remember that class. (digging out notes, finding books, finally get to use that stuff :-) ) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 15:12:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA16744 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23910; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22994 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:55:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B8719E@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:58:54 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 19 Apr 99 14:59:10 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 19 Apr 99 14:59:05 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:58:55 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Joel Salatin Speaking at Claymont Farm CSA 4/20 Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <3153C3D7FE9@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 739 Allan, I wish that I could go to this. I have heard so many good things about Joel Salatin. Will you report back to the list after his talk please? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would love to hear about it. Anita > Internationally acclaimed relational marketing and holistic resource > management guru, Joel Salatin, will speak for one hour tomorrow afternoon > at Claymont Court, a 365 acre organic/biodynamic estate outside of Charles > Town, WV. The topic of the lecture will be 'Holistic Resource Management on > Your Small Farm Enterprise.' A grass-fed beef tasting will follow as will a > question and answer period. > > Admission is free for farmers, interns and students. Please call (304) > 876-2373 to make a reservation. (or email csa@claymont.org) > > Joel will be selling his three books (Pastured Poultry Profits, Salad Bar > Beef, and You Can Farm!) as well as grass-fed beef and eggs from pasture > following this event. > > > Mr. Salatin's visit is part of the on-going Claymont Farm CSA local food > economy education initiative. If you would like to be notified of other > events at Claymont, please respond to this message. > > Allan Balliett > Claymont Farm CSA > BIODYNAMICS Now! > Contact Info: > POB 3047 > Shepherdstown, WV > 25443 > (304) 876-2373 > (815) 550-6067 FAX Forwarding > > > > > > =========================================================================== > > BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, > dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food > that promotes human development. > > To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to > > listproc@envirolink.org > > In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): > > subscribe bdnow > > If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com > > a message to listproc@envirolink.org > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 15:24:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17354 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27064; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:12:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26530 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.186.134] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.134]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FAG005QKB8QSM@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:24:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:23:39 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Joel Salatin Speaking at Claymont Farm CSA 4/20 In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 740 >Internationally acclaimed relational marketing and holistic resource >management guru, Joel Salatin, will speak for one hour tomorrow afternoon >at Claymont Court, a 365 acre organic/biodynamic estate outside of Charles >Town, WV. The topic of the lecture will be 'Holistic Resource Management on >Your Small Farm Enterprise.' A grass-fed beef tasting will follow as will a >question and answer period. > Dear Allan: Could you please ask Mr. Salatin permission to publish in the BDNow web site his notes or-and a summary on the conference. I would love to at least get the feeling of the trends he is suggesting. Regards friend Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 15:25:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17369 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:25:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27196; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:12:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26623 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:10:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B87615@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:13:47 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 19 Apr 99 15:14:03 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 19 Apr 99 15:13:41 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:13:32 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: worms Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000401be8a67$17294dc0$8e6fc0d1@donnas> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <3157A8D0B04@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 741 As I think I may have said in an earlier post today, my understanding of the vermaculture biz is that they use California Red worms which are quite abundant in California (especially on sidewalks on rainy days). I learned to do vermiculture from an old man in the Dominican Republic who filled his whole back yard (about 1/2 acre) with worms in (what I call) "corrals" that he made with whatever scrape piece of wood or metal he found laying about in the shape of childrens' sand boxes. He shaded the areas with dark netting if there wasn't enough tree cover and put sprinklers on top also to help retain moisture and cooler temps in the hot Santo Domingo sun. It was about as laid-back an operation as you could imagine, and his production was positively outrageous. He's also the one who told me to start with the California Red (he said that the native varieties didn't like spending so much energy on eating all the time, were not used to such a rich diet, and would "run away"). Whatever he may have originally started with has obviously evolved and adapted to his individual conditions over the years (the literature he gave me said that a worm takes about a month to reach sexual maturity and then, given an adequate environment, can reproduce every 7 days and live for as long as 15 years -- so that's a lot of generations!!) He had tons (probably literally) of worms -- would reach his hand in and pull out handfulls like speghetti (and he produces truck loads of compost and just in his spare time from a full time job with the DR government). So, I think that a worm was meant to live in real conditions and doesn't need to be kept so overly pampered. -- Anita > I have been told by everyone that I have asked about introducing worms into > the compost........ that the worms one can buy for vermiculture are not the > type that will survive outside in the ground or in a compost pile, and that > I would have to have a "worm bin" in a area where the temperature could be > controlled.......not too hot nor too cold....... like in the house. > It seemed to me that this variety or any variety of worms have to originally > come from living in the earth and so one would think that some , if not > all, would do just fine in a compost pile or better in a compost pit. > But at any rate I have not been able to get a definitive answer and so have > not bought worms specifically for my compost pit. > A few years ago I had access to waste from a Shitake mushroom farm (which > has since gone out of business) and spreading that around my garden, I > noticed there were worms in every shovel of soil. Now I am not seeing > worms, but I have sprayed with BC as well as beginning to use my first > batch of BD compost made with the preps and I hope to see the return of the > worm. > I also thought that very small tunneling creatures (I have not identified > them, but they are ubiquitous) might be eating all the worms. > Donaterra > "Not everything that counts can be counted, > and not everything that can be counted counts".........Einstein > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 16:58:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA19291 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15049; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:46:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14316 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:42:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.38] (pm3shep1-163-38.intrepid.net [209.190.163.38]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA30500 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:46:22 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3153C3D7FE9@agecon.uga.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:26:19 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: Joel Salatin Speaking at Claymont Farm CSA 4/20 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 742 >Allan, >I wish that I could go to this. I have heard so many good things >about Joel Salatin. Will you report back to the list after his talk >please? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would love to hear about >it. Anita Dear Anita - I priced this event to make it attractive to my friend Rex Harrill. Hopefully, given the short notice, Rex can make the time to attend and report. Myself, I'm one of those 'sweating from every pore' guys and don't have much time to put my thoughts to the net. I am trying to get this presentation recorded, however. I'll let you know if this happens. Thanks for your interest, Allan Balliett moderator, BD Now! =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 16:59:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA19315 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15159; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:46:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14330 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:42:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.38] (pm3shep1-163-38.intrepid.net [209.190.163.38]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA30509 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:46:26 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:46:46 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: Joel Salatin Speaking at Claymont Farm CSA 4/20 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 743 >>Internationally acclaimed relational marketing and holistic resource >>management guru, Joel Salatin, will speak for one hour tomorrow afternoon >>at Claymont Court, a 365 acre organic/biodynamic estate outside of Charles >>Town, WV. The topic of the lecture will be 'Holistic Resource Management on >>Your Small Farm Enterprise.' A grass-fed beef tasting will follow as will a >>question and answer period. >> > >Dear Allan: > >Could you please ask Mr. Salatin permission to publish in the BDNow web >site his notes or-and a summary on the conference. > >I would love to at least get the feeling of the trends he is suggesting. > >Regards friend > >Guillermo Romero I. >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Simplified recent trends from Joel Salatin: HUMANS: eat more BEEF. BEEF: eat more GRASS. FARMER: make more MONEY in LESS TIME selling SOLAR POWERED GRASS-FED BEEF. Sure, I'll see what I can get for everyone. Also: there will be questions and answers afterwards. If you have a question for Joel, ask me and I'll ask him. Thanks -Allan Balliett moderator, BD Now! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 18:20:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA20589 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:20:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00318; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:06:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00030 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:05:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-96.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-96.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.96]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA17478 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:09:18 GMT Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:09:18 GMT Message-Id: <199904192209.WAA17478@out4.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: Help with Chromatography needed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 744 Hi Connie, >I learned about paper chromatography in beggining chem. but did not use it in the lab until I had >organic chemistry. We separated some spinich to isolate the chorophyll. That was 25 years ago, I >still remember that class. (digging out notes, finding books, finally get to use that stuff :-) ) Could you describe how the chlorophyll comes out on the paper? Thanks, Lynton From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 18:20:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA20590 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:20:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00467; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00054 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-96.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-96.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.96]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA79514 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:09:23 GMT Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:09:23 GMT Message-Id: <199904192209.WAA79514@out4.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: Joel Salatin Speaking at Claymont Farm CSA 4/20 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 745 >Simplified recent trends from Joel Salatin: >HUMANS: eat more BEEF. BEEF: eat more GRASS. FARMER: make more MONEY in >LESS TIME selling SOLAR POWERED GRASS-FED BEEF. I agree, except that beef does NOT necessarily suit ALL humans. It seems to depend on one's blood type accoring to Dr Peter D'Adamo in "Eat Right for Your TYpe"/"The Eat Right Diet". Lynton From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 20:12:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA23687 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA17160; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA16817 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bio (kmidc67-85.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.85]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA08579 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:59:47 +1000 Message-ID: <005001be8ac0$943f8fa0$55431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: "BDNow list" Subject: Off: Fw: [GE]: Bt and its toxin Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:48:45 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 746 -----Original Message----- From: Robert Mann (by way of Organic Federation of Australia Inc ) To: ofa@netspace.net.au Date: Tuesday, 20 April 1999 8:00 am Subject: [GE]: Bt and its toxin >Following is an interesting study into the effects of Bt resistant crops on >beneficial insect populations which is of interest to organic farmers. > >From: fkoechlin@datacomm.ch (Florianne Koechlin) >Subject: mail-out 65 > > >MAIL - OUT 65 (March 1999) > >Dear friends >This mail-out is about a newly emerging risk-discussion: Do genetically >engineered Bt-crops poison beneficial insects, bees, soil-organisms, fish, >birds? What effects do they have on food-webs, what studies have to be done >and why were they not conducted? > >At an international meeting of entomologists in Basel in March 1999 >scientists raised a red flag: Genetically engineered Bt-crops could poison >beneficial insects as well as wiping out pests. Angelika Hilbeck and her >team (Swiss Federal Research Station for Agroecology and Agriculture) said >they have found new evidence that lacewings, which eat caterpillars and >aphids, can be poisoned by transgenic Bt-crops (these crops contain a gene >from the soil bacterium Bacillus thuringiensis coding for a Bt-toxin. The >transgenic plant thus produces its own insecticide). They showed already >last year that in laboratory tests beneficial lacewings were killed by >eating corn-borer caterpillars that had consumed the toxin. In other >experiments her team fed identical quantities of purified Bt-toxin directly >to lacewing larvae or via caterpillars that had consumed the toxin. 50% >more lacewings died after eating the caterpillars than after eating >directly the toxin.(N.S., 27.2.99). >At the same meeting Nicholas Birch (Scottish Crop Research Institute) >presented his findings that transgenic lectin-producing potatoes (lectin is >a toxin of the same group as the Bt-toxin) harmed ladybirds Eating aphids >reared on transgenic lectin-potatoes reduced the the lifespans and egg >production of ladybirds. > >Novartis, the producer of Bt-maize 175 (which is grown now in Spain), said >that these laboratory studies do not reflect real conditions in the >environment and pointed out that they had conducted extensive trials before >bringing their Bt-maize to the market. But Hilbeck has an explanation why >Novartis did not find any dead beneficial insects:"A standard test (..) is >that an insect is fed eggs sprayed with Bt-toxins. The problem is, however, >that lacelaws do not eat the eggs but suck them out from inside, so they do >not get in touch with the poison on the outside of the egg. Only with >long-time feeding trials and a very careful set-up of the experiment can >such impacts be studied."(Swiss Tagesanzeiger, 19.3.99). And such >experiments have not been done. > >Bt-crops are probably the most important transgenic crops: Bt-maize, >Bt-cotton, Bt-potatoes or Bt-rice grow on fields all over the world. 14 out >of 43 commercialised transgenic crops in the US are Bt-crops. Furthermore, >in the US there is a giant patent-battle going on over who will get >monopoly controll over these crops: Up to June 1998, 482 patents had been >submitted or awarded mentioning Bt, some 95 of these patents involve >transgenic plants. The top ten patentees hold 62% of all patents, with Dow >holding 98 and Novartis 36 patents. (Robin Jenkins, in 'Seedling, Sept.'98) > >Industry's main-argument for the safety of Bt-crops always was the fact >that Bt-emulsions from Bt-bacterias have been used as a biological and >sprayable insecticide throughout the world since the early 1950s, and >nothing happened. However, there are 2 important differences between the >sprayable Bt-insecticide and the form of Bt engineered into the genome of >crops, as 'World Watch' (Jan./Feb.1999) points out: "First, while the >naturally derived spray version of Bt is highly specific (its toxicity is >activated only in the gut of certain species), the genetically modified >version has been altered to work against an array of insects - harmful or >not. The recent studies showed that beneficial insects were also harmed by >Bt (...) The result was a 2-fold increase in adult mortality and >reproductive failure in 2 very different beneficial species. The studies >also showed dramatically reduced fitness and increased mortality in the >beneficial larvae and eggs (..). These side-effects of Bt crops have now >been demonstrated for a wide variety of insects and soil organisms, and >preliminary studies suggest that the adverse effects could even be felt by >insect-eating bird populations, many levels up the farm foodweb - a foodweb >that includes plants and animals consumed by humans. >The second significant difference is that Bt-crops deliver extremely high >levels of the toxin - roughly 10 to 20 times the lethal dose of sprayable >formulations. Mark Whalon (Michigan State University) notes, that in >contrast to the carefully timed applications of sprayable Bt and the >"micrograms" sprayed each time (...) "these transgenic crops are now >pumping out huge amounts of toxins from all tissues throughout the entire >growing season, from germination to senescence." >The scientists also warn that the more aggressive the measures for pest >eradication, the greater the likelyhood that successive generations of >pests become more resistant. The long-term results would be a mutual arms >race between farmers and pests, in which plants engineered to secrete >increasingly toxic chemicals would be deployed against increasingly >resistant strains of pests. This heighened threat of Bt-resistence, coupled >with the devastation of beneficial insect populations that help keep pests >in check, could lead to massive crop losses. >Although initial large scale plantings of Bt-crops may appear benign, it >will likely take several seasons for toxidity and resistence problems to >emerge. (..) The scientists advocate a moratorium on large scale releases >of Bt-crops until the long-term ecological effects are better assessed". > >All the best Florianne Koechlin > > >Genet News >--------- > >Dr Robt Mann >science chairman, Physicians & Scientists For Responsible Genetics >P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand > (9) 524 2949 > > >========================================================================== > Genetic Engineering List > New Zealand Natural Law Party > Administration : listadmin@NaturalLaw.org.nz > List Messages : ge@NaturalLaw.org.nz > Web Page : http://www.NaturalLaw.org.nz/genetic >The GE List is a service of the Natural Law Party to provide a discussion >forum for organisations concerned about the dangers of genetic engineering. >Views expressed are not necessarily those of the Natural Law Party. > To subscribe or unsubscribe, please email the list administrator at > listadmin@NaturalLaw.org.nz >========================================================================== > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 20:12:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA23695 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA17095; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:58:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA16813 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:56:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bio (kmidc67-85.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.85]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA08585; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:59:55 +1000 Message-ID: <005101be8ac0$963ebb00$55431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: "BDNow list" , "Welink" Subject: Off: Fw: [GE]: pollen spread with GE canola Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:51:10 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 747 -----Original Message----- From: Clive Elwell (by way of Organic Federation of Australia Inc ) To: ofa@netspace.net.au Date: Tuesday, 20 April 1999 8:04 am Subject: [GE]: pollen spread with GE canola >This article is also of significance to Organic farmers who have already had >pollen contamination in the US from GE corn crops. > > > > >1) The Times (London) April 15, 1999 - Bees 'spread genes from GM crops' >BYLINE: Nick Nuttall >BODY: Ministers to review guidelines as new study >suggests buffer zones may be futile, writes Nick Nuttall >GUIDELINES on the isolation of genetically modified crops are to be >reviewed by the Government, after a study found that bees could carry >pollen >four kilometres from test sites. Farm scale trials to assess the impact >of >the crops have begun with "buffer" zones between them and the >countryside of >just 50 metres. Government rules on commercial plantings of gene altered >crops suggest buffers of 200 metres. But the new findings, >published yesterday, indicate that a revised strategy may be >needed to allay public concern. The 4km distance is much further >than previously supposed. >The researchers claim that the spread of so-called >"transgenes" from farm to farm will be widespread should >commercial plantings go ahead. The findings have come from a >team at the government-funded Scottish Crop Research Institute >in Dundee. >Michael Meacher, Minister for the Environment, admitted that >bees could take pollen large distances. In a House of Commons >written reply yesterday, he said that despite precautions "it >has to be recognised that bee activity may in some cases involve >the dissemination of GM pollen beyond the isolation distances >traditionally used". >A spokesman for the Department of the Environment said that >studies were under way into the consequences of bees >transporting pollen over large distances. The isolation >guidelines would be reviewed by the Advisory Committee on >Releases to the Environment in the wake of these studies. >John Crawford, one of the research team, admitted that it had >been surprised by the findings. The distance over which oilseed >rape pollen travelled had been unknown and of little >consequence. But concern over the impact of gene altered crops >was concentrating scientific minds. "We were getting cross- >pollination over large distances. There is no doubt that pollen >from genetically modified crops will get out," Dr Crawford >said. >The scientists planted male-sterile oilseed rape plants at >52 sites. They were positioned between zero and 4,000 metres >from a 70sq km field in which oilseed rape was being grown.Using >male-sterile plants meant that seeds produced by the plants were >as a result of cross-pollination from the field rather than >self-pollination. The scientists found that pollination occurred >at all the test sites. Nearly 90 per cent of flower buds were >pollinated one metre from the field. But even at 4,000 metres >away, 5 per cent of flower buds on the test plants had been >pollinated. >The team says in its paper to a conference at Keele >University: "The results suggest that the farm-to-farm spread of >oilseed rape transgenes will be widespread." >Dr Crawford said bees could be the key to pollination at huge >distances. "Bees carry a lot of pollen concentrated on their >bodies. So the amount of pollen getting to a plant could be >quite significant," he said. They will also alarm organic >farmers who are concerned that gene modifed crops will cross- >pollinate with plants such as sweetcorn, nullifying their >organic status. Last July a West Country organic farmer lost a >case in the High Court to have trials of gene altered crops near >his farm scrapped. A judge supported the Government's >position that the risks of cross pollination was "likely to be >zero". >Adrian Beeb of Friends of the Earth said: "This research >throws current thinking out of the window. It confirms that >pollen from these mutant crops will be a problem for most >farmers." He urged the Government to back calls by bodies >including English Nature who have demanded a three to five-year >moratorium on commercial plantings of gene modified organisms >=================== > >========================================================================== > Genetic Engineering List > New Zealand Natural Law Party > Administration : listadmin@NaturalLaw.org.nz > List Messages : ge@NaturalLaw.org.nz > Web Page : http://www.NaturalLaw.org.nz/genetic >The GE List is a service of the Natural Law Party to provide a discussion >forum for organisations concerned about the dangers of genetic engineering. >Views expressed are not necessarily those of the Natural Law Party. > To subscribe or unsubscribe, please email the list administrator at > listadmin@NaturalLaw.org.nz >========================================================================== > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 21:19:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA24933 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:19:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26478; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA26054 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:02:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-90.s27.as1.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.90]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id VAA04209 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:06:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <371BD2E8.93836972@erols.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:05:44 -0400 From: Rex Harrill Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Off: Fw: [GE]: Bt and its toxin References: <005001be8ac0$943f8fa0$55431ccb@bio> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 748 Cheryl Kemp submitted another bit in the ongoing horror about genetic engineering: > >Bt-crops are probably the most important transgenic crops: Bt-maize, > >Bt-cotton, Bt-potatoes or Bt-rice grow on fields all over the world. 14 > out > >of 43 commercialised transgenic crops in the US are Bt-crops. Furthermore, > >in the US there is a giant patent-battle going on over who will get > >monopoly controll over these crops: Up to June 1998, 482 patents had been > >submitted or awarded mentioning Bt, some 95 of these patents involve > >transgenic plants. The top ten patentees hold 62% of all patents, with Dow > >holding 98 and Novartis 36 patents. (Robin Jenkins, in 'Seedling, Sept.'98) > In my mind, this is the real trouble with GE: patents. Remove life-forms from the patent system and the monstrous genie just might return to the bottle for another thousand years. I suggest unmitigated *war* against GE in all its forms. There has never been a bigger threat to life as we know it. I hope those Europeans who destroy GE fields, and go to jail for it, know what heros I consider them. Regards, Rex Harrill From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 19 23:11:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA26454 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:11:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14058; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13353 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:53:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-77.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-77.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.77]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA49662 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 02:57:53 GMT Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 02:57:53 GMT Message-Id: <199904200257.CAA49662@out4.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: Off: Fw: [GE]: Bt and its toxin Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 749 At 09:05 PM 4/19/99 -0400, you wrote: >Cheryl Kemp submitted another bit in the ongoing horror about genetic >engineering: > >> >Bt-crops are probably the most important transgenic crops: Bt-maize, >> >Bt-cotton, Bt-potatoes or Bt-rice grow on fields all over the world. 14 >> out >> >of 43 commercialised transgenic crops in the US are Bt-crops. Furthermore, >> >in the US there is a giant patent-battle going on over who will get >> >monopoly controll over these crops: Up to June 1998, 482 patents had been >> >submitted or awarded mentioning Bt, some 95 of these patents involve >> >transgenic plants. The top ten patentees hold 62% of all patents, with Dow >> >holding 98 and Novartis 36 patents. (Robin Jenkins, in 'Seedling, Sept.'98) >> > >In my mind, this is the real trouble with GE: patents. Remove life-forms from >the patent system and the monstrous genie just might return to the bottle for >another thousand years. I suggest unmitigated *war* against GE in all its >forms. There has never been a bigger threat to life as we know it. I hope >those Europeans who destroy GE fields, and go to jail for it, know what heros I >consider them. > >Regards, >Rex Harrill > The interesting thing about the GE patents - especially the plant ones - is that where there is pollen transfer by insects, wind or accident the gene is being freely distributed. They become part of the gene stock of the community (for better or worse). In my opinion, the GE companies are wasting their money. They might succeed for a short while whilst the myoptic legislators (and 'scientists') come to terms with the free distribution factors (not to mention the harmful effects). In the longer term I wonder if the concept of such patents will continue to be regarded as sensible or even sustainable. Lynton Blair From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 20 02:03:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA28953 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 02:03:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA02011; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 01:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA01922 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 01:46:53 -0400 (EDT) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id hZUZa28862 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 01:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <169021f1.244d6f8b@aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 01:50:03 EDT Subject: Joel Salatin Event To: BDnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 750 I attended the Acres "special access day" tour at Joel's farm last summer at a hefty price with no complaints ( except there was no chicken BBQ). I was very impressed with the organization and health of the animals and plants. But, through the grapevine, I heard Joel is shying away from the word Biodynamic because a "Christian" priest said the Biodynamic preparations were ( for loss of a better word, or to the best of my recollection ) "unholy." Anybody out there willing to comment? Also, his use of commercial feed for the broiler's feed is a dubious industry. No doubt organic feed is more expensive but isn't it better to help those who are making A step in the direction of sustainability? I myself use "commercial" grains to grind for my Cornish broilers. I'm sorry I sold out on that one but no one will pay $20 for a 4 lb. bird ( I'm now getting $15, and I'm not in it for the $ ) and it is better than the chickens in the store. However, when it comes to layer's rations I use certified organic feed which upon sight, feel, and aroma surpasses any commercial grains I have used. I don't make much on the eggs but it draws people like a magnet to my truck every week for all the BD vegetables. And the broilers......I can't grow enough of them to keep up with the demand (along with the rest). The secret....put your organically fed layers on a "deep litter system" and benefit from all the tonnage from the yard ( instead of buying manure from the outside, buy feed and turn it into manure compost. There are benefits! ) . Mulch the layer's yard lightly and often ( for a year here ) with what have you on the farm and kitchen ( I love chucking leftovers from the stoop into their yard and the chickies do too ) and put the BD preps in the deep litter. After a time, pitchfork the 3 to 4 foot thick litter out and compost with another set of BD preps. This compost IS the best and even better if you are growing the grains for the chickens ON your farm. Regards, Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 20 10:15:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05691 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:15:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11866; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:01:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11438 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00B91D5F@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:02:33 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 20 Apr 99 10:02:51 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 20 Apr 99 10:02:35 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:02:33 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Joel Salatin Speaking at Claymont Farm CSA 4/20 Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199904192209.WAA79514@out4.ibm.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <3284BB9375F@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 751 > >Simplified recent trends from Joel Salatin: > >HUMANS: eat more BEEF. BEEF: eat more GRASS. FARMER: make more MONEY in > >LESS TIME selling SOLAR POWERED GRASS-FED BEEF. > > I agree, except that beef does NOT necessarily suit ALL humans. It seems to > depend on one's blood type accoring to Dr Peter D'Adamo in "Eat Right for > Your TYpe"/"The Eat Right Diet". > > Lynton I probably should not respond to this since the mention of that blood type diet naturally gets MY blood "type" boiling (it's hard enough to imagine that my needs and destiny are the same as 1/12 of the population based on my sun sign, why on earth would I think that my needs could be determined by putting me in one of 4 or so catagories? Do I also buy into the "body shape-type" diet that came out before this one? And does a "pear" shape body with type A blood need the same things as a "pear" shape body with type B?... what about if one is a water sign and the other an earth sign?...) Aggh! Anyway, I believe that "HUMANS: eat more BEEF" was meant as a statement of fact, not as an advertising slogan. Whether or not humans should eat beef (or WHO among us should or shouldn't) is a totally different issue. I understand the Salatin statement to say, "given that humans (and probably specifically US humans) are eating more and more beef, and given that farmers like to make a living at their profession, it makes sense to supply the beef demand with grass fed beef since this is more economical." Personally, I think that the issue of beef production and marketing is a bit more complex than this, but that too is another issue. Again, sorry to respond in a moment of aggitation. I don't mean to sound as snarly as I probably do. Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 20 16:39:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA13888 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:39:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17643; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:28:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16635 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:24:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:24:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904201624.MAA16635@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 21356 invoked from network); 20 Apr 1999 16:01:33 -0000 Received: from i48-20-12.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO DAVE) (216.26.6.204) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 20 Apr 1999 16:01:33 -0000 X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Chromotography/ Flowform pics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 752 Guillermo wrote: >Just curious, what do you look for in this tests ?, what are the controls ? what are the patterns one should look for ?, in short, what is the use of doing such a "primitive" chromatogram in comparison to HPLC, Gas C or using an ion exchange column ?. > >I recall a BD related reference about seeing "things" in the chromatogram, that is, patterns with a message of some sort. Or is it for checking for a "standard" pattern in a sample as a way to characterize the tested material I thought this question would come up. In my experience, doing the chromas is the easy part. The hard part is figuring out what they mean. A chemist would expect mixtures of compounds to be smoothly dispersed, sort of like a circular rainbow. Instead, we get radiative patterns, more like snowflakes. The degree of pattern indicates the amount of "formative forces" present, but I will be the first to admit that I don't know how to interpret them. The pictures in Kolisko's book are beautiful and instructive but don't help you distinguish. What is a "good" prep versus an inferior one? How much "dynamics" should one expect of a soil or plant sample? I wish I knew. I have scanned a series of pictures done under the direction of Pfeiffer, if you would like to see some examples. The files are .htm graphic pages to be viewed with a browser. They are self-extracting zipped files, click on them and they will extract themselves. Mac users will have to apply their own extraction program. Those on slow speed, rural phone systems take note, these are big files and will take some time to download. I will leave these files posted for an interim time, but not too long since they take up server space. For the chroma pictures, point your browser to ftp://public:download@ftp.ezsim.com/ezsim/chroma.exe This file is 1.5MB and will take several minutes to download. While we at it, there may also be interest in the flow form pictures I have offered around. For flow forms, point your browser to ftp://public:download@ftp.ezsim.com/ezsim/flow.exe The file is about 7.5M, it will take 6-7 minutes to download. ======================== David Robison Stellar Processes From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 20 19:21:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA17202 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:21:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11800; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:05:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA11520 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:01:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.186.150] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.150]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FAI00HGLGCPON@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:10:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:16:14 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Chromotography/ Flowform pics In-reply-to: <199904201624.MAA16635@envirolink.org> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 753 >Guillermo wrote: >>Just curious, what do you look for in this tests ?, what are the controls ? >what are the patterns one should look for ?, in short, what is the use of >doing such a "primitive" chromatogram in comparison to HPLC, Gas C or using >an ion exchange column ?. >> >>I recall a BD related reference about seeing "things" in the chromatogram, >that is, patterns with a message of some sort. Or is it for checking for a >"standard" pattern in a sample as a way to characterize the tested material > >I thought this question would come up. In my experience, doing the chromas >is the easy part. The hard part is figuring out what they mean. A chemist >would expect mixtures of compounds to be smoothly dispersed, sort of like a >circular rainbow. Instead, we get radiative patterns, more like snowflakes. >The degree of pattern indicates the amount of "formative forces" present, >but I will be the first to admit that I don't know how to interpret them. >The pictures in Kolisko's book are beautiful and instructive but don't help >you distinguish. What is a "good" prep versus an inferior one? How much >"dynamics" should one expect of a soil or plant sample? I wish I knew. > >I have scanned a series of pictures done under the direction of Pfeiffer, if >you would like to see some examples. The files are .htm graphic pages to be >viewed with a browser. They are self-extracting zipped files, click on them >and they will extract themselves. Mac users will have to apply their own >extraction program. Those on slow speed, rural phone systems take note, >these are big files and will take some time to download. > >I will leave these files posted for an interim time, but not too long since >they take up server space. > > >For the chroma pictures, point your browser to >ftp://public:download@ftp.ezsim.com/ezsim/chroma.exe >This file is 1.5MB and will take several minutes to download. > > >While we at it, there may also be interest in the flow form pictures I have >offered around. For flow forms, point your browser to >ftp://public:download@ftp.ezsim.com/ezsim/flow.exe >The file is about 7.5M, it will take 6-7 minutes to download. >======================== >David Robison >Stellar Processes Thanks David: The first time you post this to the list I tried to open the FTP file but it came down as garbled characters. I just tried it once more and it was the same story. (I used a Mac and Netscape N) Can you use other format, gif, pdf or the like ? In any case thank you for taking the time. Warm regards Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 20 19:38:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA17430 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:38:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA13982; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:23:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from halifax.chebucto.ns.ca (chebucto.ns.Ca [192.75.95.75]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13629 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:21:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from av204@localhost by halifax.chebucto.ns.ca id <35581-648>; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:24:44 -0300 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:24:44 -0300 (ADT) Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Joan Macdonald To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Subtle Energy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: av204@chebucto.ns.ca X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 754 Hi Bd Listers; A short while ago I sent a post to BDNOW, on energy blocks which can be set up by vaccinations, but recent posts have made me consider the concept 'What is Energy,' as related to finding and maintaining personal health and meridian energy balance. We all remember from high school, the statement that: Energy has the capacity to do work, that energy and potential are the same thing. Infinite energy is in a perfect, static balance of opposing forces...like an isometric exercise. Energy in itself, and the ability of living beings to use energy are discussed in hands - on courses, that teach people the capabilities to tap energy directly; ie., the ability to tap that energy - consciously, or unconsiously and automatically. Energy balance is the smooth even flow of energy throughout the body's meridian system. Energy circulates through the meridians and is released out into tissues, and the purpose of energy flow, meridians, is to provide each individual cell the data it needs to properly function. If the energy system is not functioning well, then the messages to the cells maybe garbled and lost. Living beings are able to secure all the energy they need from both gross physical and subtle energy sources. Food, water and air provide the gross energy we need, and the subtle energy is taken in via the meridian system. People take energy in through food, water, air and ideas, they process them and organise them and radiate energy back out into the world, in the form of thoughts, words, actions, heat, and bodily execretions. Throughout our life, we acquire issues and disturbances which may create personal energy imbalances, some are: vaccinations, traumas, accidents, grief from loss of a loved one, illnesses, pharmaceutical medications, work place environment, ie., a factory for electical components - electromagnetic fields. Lying underneath is a hereditary susceptibility, which perhaps may cause one person be asthmatic, and another to have coronary problems. Energy affects us on all levels - physical, emotional, mental and spiritual, therefore energy imbalances are aquired on all levels. Consider a workplace where the atmosphere is negative, not a pleasant work site...those negative forces may affect on an emotional level first , and then more noticabily other levels may become affected, perhaps physical symptoms develop. To name a few subtle energy modalities: chinese medicine(accupuncture), kinesiology, homeopathy, ayurvedic, dowsing, anthroposophical medicine (biodynamic preps). Health energy modalities are continually discovering, how our modern world may effect our energy levels, how body imbalances may manifest; these modalities are able to assist and clear away troubling issues. More people are aware of subtle energies, and wish to develop personal energy enhancing skills, which are observed when exposed to, or working with energy, along with self-protective measures. I previously mentioned courses which teach how to tap into the vast universal energy supply, on a conscious level and on an automatic, unconscious level. These comprehensive courses are able to blend in the understanding of energy, which relates to both our inner and outer environments, teach people how to be objective in their minds, use intuition, have a validation, and understand an idea - have a clarity of concept. People learn how to make changes in themselves, their family and work environments. Personal protective measures are emphasised in good quality energy classes, and they also stress when it is advisable for someone to seek an experienced practitioner, when personal issues may need experienced energy attention. As more people move toward biodynamic farming, someday perhaps there will be an introductory level 'Energy 101' course included in basic biodynamic agriculture studies. Rudolf Steiner developed anthroposophical medicine and biodynamic preparations, in a similar manner to Samuel Hahnemann's homeopathic remedies, beginning with crude raw materials, diluting, succussing and potentising them. Many people have personally taken homeopathic remedies, and have experienced their ability to reach them on physical, emotional, mental and spiritual energy levels... Steiner's own lectures and writings have described his understanding of universal energy, Bd preparations/anthroposophical medicine. His lectures on biodynamic agriculture have explained the use of this energy to grow biodynamic food. Many times on the BDNOW list, mentioned has been made about the feelings some are aware of when they stir, spray, or walk in an area after the preps have been applied. This is Subtle Energy, and how it may affect the person continually exposed would be on an individual basis, as we all are different, therefore this thought leads back to the beginning of this post. Joan Macdonald Halifax, Nova Scotia email: av204@chebucto.ns.ca From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 20 20:15:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA17730 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:15:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA17724; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:58:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA17420 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.132.48] (max15-45.stc.net [208.210.138.45]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA13410 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <371BD2E8.93836972@erols.com> References: <005001be8ac0$943f8fa0$55431ccb@bio> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1989 18:38:48 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Off: Fw: [GE]: Bt and its toxin Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 755 In my mind, this is the real trouble with GE: patents. Remove life-forms from the patent system and the monstrous genie just might return to the bottle for another thousand years. I suggest unmitigated *war* against GE in all its forms. There has never been a bigger threat to life as we know it. I hope those Europeans who destroy GE fields, and go to jail for it, know what heros I consider them. Regards, Rex Harrill I can't help but concur. Best, Hugh Lovel Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 20 21:00:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA18466 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA22317; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:43:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA22051 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:40:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-47.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-47.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.47]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA28934 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:43:41 GMT Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:43:41 GMT Message-Id: <199904210043.AAA28934@out1.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: Joel Salatin Speaking Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 756 At 10:02 AM 4/20/99 EST5EDT, you wrote: > >> >Simplified recent trends from Joel Salatin: >> >HUMANS: eat more BEEF. BEEF: eat more GRASS. FARMER: make more MONEY in >> >LESS TIME selling SOLAR POWERED GRASS-FED BEEF. >> >> I agree, except that beef does NOT necessarily suit ALL humans. It seems to >> depend on one's blood type accoring to Dr Peter D'Adamo in "Eat Right for >> Your TYpe"/"The Eat Right Diet". >> >> Lynton > >Anita: >I probably should not respond to this since the mention of that blood >type diet naturally gets MY blood "type" boiling (it's hard enough to >imagine that my needs and destiny are the same as 1/12 of the >population based on my sun sign, why on earth would I think that my >needs could be determined by putting me in one of 4 or so catagories? I appreciate your approach, but there is at least a scientific basis for the diet - not to say that it is a blanket solution, there are individual variances of course. The problem with not having read the book (the theory is explained mostly in just a few chapters, the rest of the book is listing foods for each major blood type). He does in fact use more than just ABO (which is 90 percent of what you need to know, he says). Other typing is MN, Lewis (secretor), Rhesus and in fact subtypes A1 and A2. The details of these other typings is not indicated in the book. Not everyone succeeds on the foods he suggests: there are the odd few that are idiosyncratic. I have a problem with the book in that foods are included in headings of HB, N, A (highly beneficial, neutral and avoid) without the reason: he does not indicate whether by reason of Lectin activity, or whatever. The basis is his discovery that the blood-types he uses are reflected in the intestinal tract . My argument is as follows: fact: people are most sensitive in the ABO blood groupings ( requiring special care in blood transfusion ). fact: lectins exist ( and have been known since the 40's). fact: some lectins exhibit characteristics of AB antigens, etc). conclusion: that people with certain blood types will be "sensitive" - ie mount an immune response - to certain lectin-containing foods. In fact, this is what is found to happen. I believe that the present state of knowledge about this is limited in comparison to what will come forth in the future. But so many people testify to health benefits by adapting their food intake to this plan, (myself included) that it should be considered seriously. There are a lot of people arguing that paleo diet shows us the way : the fact is we are alive _today_ with our bodies as_they_are_now. If some blood-types have evolved through dietary pressure, then surely that indicates adaption to certain foods. As it happens, it also means adaption away from others. I brought this up (briefly) with the family doctor. His immediate (and dismissive) response was to say that there were very many ways to type blood, and wandered off into tissue matching for donor organ transplants. Anyway, I present the information but I'm not crusading. .03c regards, Lynton From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 20 22:17:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19351 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29104; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:00:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28754 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:56:25 -0400 (EDT) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA09451 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:59:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:59:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md15-61.ix.netcom.com(199.182.66.189) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma009376; Tue Apr 20 20:58:45 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <199942022114341@ix.netcom.com> Subject: FALSE! Re: Archer Daniels Midland won't buy or trade GM Corn X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 757 ADM advertises on NPR that they make a GM canola with "extra vitamin E." What comes out of these folks' mouths is not to be trusted. They all come across as alturistic, like any of our presidents saying, "God bless America," just as we go to bomb the hell out of people so we can be the #1 global power. Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD Remember DDT? The agriculture chemical that was banned because it was killing off the bald eagles (and everything else)? Well, we still eat DDT on imported produce and food products. Moreover, GATT allows for over 50% higher residue rates than the US government (as if ANY residue of DDT is "acceptible!"). Food is power... are you in control of yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 21 06:48:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA24635 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 06:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA26317; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 06:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA26270 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 06:35:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-101.s38.as1.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.101]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id GAA17665 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 06:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <371DAAD6.769CF4F@erols.com> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 06:39:18 -0400 From: Rex Harrill Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Chromotography/ Flowform pics References: <199904201624.MAA16635@envirolink.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 758 Dave Robison wrote: > Guillermo wrote: > >Just curious, what do you look for in this tests ?, what are the controls ? > what are the patterns one should look for ?, in short, what is the use of > doing such a "primitive" chromatogram in comparison to HPLC, Gas C or using an > ion exchange column ?. Before anyone gets to complaining that "primitive" chromatograms tend to be vague, I hope they think about such other things as, say, X-rays. For instance, to be 'qualified' to read X-rays, a radiologist has to put in about 5 years of intense study beyond their standard medical degree. Then after, say, 5-10 years of full-time 'practice,' his/her peers will begin to believe the radiologist has a fair degree of proficiency. At that point the seasoned radiologist will be considered 'good' if they can accurately detect specific problems, say, 80% of the time. During the few lectures I've attended on chromatograms, I got the impression that at least half the audience wanted, perhaps expected, to see words like the following miraculously form on the filter paper: THIS SAMPLE MEETS ALL BD EXPECTATIONS. Similarly, I've found with refractometer work that more than a few people expect to look in and see letters flashing something along the lines of "THIS SAMPLE IS 100% SUITED FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION." Well, while I can tell you that even a child can quickly determine poor, average, good, and excellent produce quality levels, I can't tell you that the neophyte will be able to determine, say, the calcium needs of the soil the crop was grown on. That, and the ability to read other data, such as the distinct quality differences between two seemingly identical-reading samples, only comes with years of experience. Some might argue, but I see chromatograms as tools that one must master. And, is it not fair to assume, mastery requires time, experience, and much, much, feedback? Regards, Rex Harrill From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 21 10:27:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27932 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:27:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15084; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:14:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08400 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:21:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00BA1B9E@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 9:24:59 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 21 Apr 99 09:25:19 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 21 Apr 99 09:25:06 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:24:58 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: OFF: blood type diet Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199904210043.AAA28934@out1.ibm.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <33FAC9F1B59@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 759 If this diet has worked for you than that's great. Maybe I would have a similar response, I don't know. It would be interesting to see some statistics on how many people really feel they benefit from this diet compared with some control diet. There are just so many "diets" coming down the pike everyday that I imagine that one could have an entire library of them, with a whole big section on the ones that have been shown to have "scientific" validity. I have a good friend who goes to a chiropractor who put her and her family on a diet free of carbohydrate-rich foods, ie, it is basically meat and vegetables -- no grains or grain products of any kind. She swears it has made a world of difference to her (though every time I call her it seems she's "just getting over" a cold or flu which is what the diet was supposedly helping her with....) I personally have found that I feel best on a carbohydrate-rich diet -- lots of whole grains and their products, lots of vegetables, some fruit, little to no meat. I don't know whose diet plan I may be inadvertantly following (or viiolently crossing?) but I'm sure that some would justify it, some would say I oughtta be fat or dead by now. I happen to be AB+, can you tell how I fit or don't fit into this diet? I do not know what "lectins" are, having only first heard them in the discussion of that scientist and his rat-potato experiments which caused alarm over GMO's and got the guy fired, etc. I was under the impression that whatever they are, they're bad. I didn't realize they were commonly available in normal foods. I would like to know more about this. Can you tell me more? Anita > >Anita: > >I probably should not respond to this since the mention of that blood > >type diet naturally gets MY blood "type" boiling (it's hard enough to > >imagine that my needs and destiny are the same as 1/12 of the > >population based on my sun sign, why on earth would I think that my > >needs could be determined by putting me in one of 4 or so catagories? > > I appreciate your approach, but there is at least a scientific basis for the > diet - not to say that it is a blanket solution, there are individual > variances of course. > > The problem with not having read the book (the theory is explained mostly in > just a few chapters, the rest of the book is listing foods for each major > blood type). He does in fact use more than just ABO (which is 90 percent of > what you need to know, he says). Other typing is MN, Lewis (secretor), > Rhesus and in fact subtypes A1 and A2. The details of these other typings > is not indicated in the book. > > Not everyone succeeds on the foods he suggests: there are the odd few that > are idiosyncratic. > > I have a problem with the book in that foods are included in headings of HB, > N, A (highly beneficial, neutral and avoid) without the reason: he does not > indicate whether by reason of Lectin activity, or whatever. > > The basis is his discovery that the blood-types he uses are reflected in the > intestinal tract . > > My argument is as follows: > fact: people are most sensitive in the ABO blood groupings ( > requiring special care in blood transfusion ). > fact: lectins exist ( and have been known since the 40's). > fact: some lectins exhibit characteristics of AB antigens, etc). > conclusion: that people with certain blood types will be "sensitive" > - ie mount an immune response - to certain lectin-containing foods. > In fact, this is what is found to happen. > > I believe that the present state of knowledge about this is limited in > comparison to what will come forth in the future. But so many people > testify to health benefits by adapting their food intake to this plan, > (myself included) that it should be considered seriously. There are a lot > of people arguing that paleo diet shows us the way : the fact is we are > alive _today_ with our bodies as_they_are_now. If some blood-types have > evolved through dietary pressure, then surely that indicates adaption to > certain foods. As it happens, it also means adaption away from others. > > I brought this up (briefly) with the family doctor. His immediate (and > dismissive) response was to say that there were very many ways to type > blood, and wandered off into tissue matching for donor organ transplants. > > Anyway, I present the information but I'm not crusading. > > .03c > > regards, > Lynton > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 21 11:21:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29344 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:21:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24714; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24569 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:07:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:07:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904211507.LAA24569@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 7841 invoked from network); 21 Apr 1999 15:11:50 -0000 Received: from i48-06-43.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO DAVE) (216.26.3.107) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 1999 15:11:50 -0000 X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Re: Chromotography pics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 760 At 06:39 AM 4/21/99 -0400, Rex wrote: > For instance, >to be 'qualified' to read X-rays, a radiologist has to put in about 5 years of >intense study beyond their standard medical degree. Then after, say, 5-10 years >of full-time 'practice,' his/her peers will begin to believe the radiologist has >a fair degree of proficiency. At that point the seasoned radiologist will be >considered 'good' if they can accurately detect specific problems, say, 80% of >the time. > >Similarly, I've found with refractometer work that more than a few people expect >to look in and see letters flashing something along the lines of "THIS SAMPLE IS >100% SUITED FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION." Well, while I can tell you that even a >child can quickly determine poor, average, good, and excellent produce quality >levels, I can't tell you that the neophyte will be able to determine, say, the >calcium needs of the soil the crop was grown on. That, and the ability to read >other data, such as the distinct quality differences between two seemingly >identical-reading samples, only comes with years of experience. > >Some might argue, but I see chromatograms as tools that one must master. And, >is it not fair to assume, mastery requires time, experience, and much, much, >feedback? Excellent analogies. So how can we develop the mastery? Is there interest in review/critique of more chroma pics? Are there knowledgeable persons who would be willing to share their expertise via internet? ======================== David Robison Stellar Processes From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 21 13:35:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03438 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16061; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:22:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15833 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904211720.NAA15833@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 28229 invoked from network); 21 Apr 1999 17:24:39 -0000 Received: from i48-10-43.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO DAVE) (216.26.4.107) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 1999 17:24:39 -0000 X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Re: Chromotography/ Flowform pics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 761 At 05:16 PM 4/20/99 -0600, you wrote: >The first time you post this to the list I tried to open the FTP file but it came down as garbled characters. I just tried it once more and it was the same story. > >(I used a Mac and Netscape N) > >Can you use other format, gif, pdf or the like ? > >In any case thank you for taking the time. If you could download the file, I think the browser end is working. The files are too big to set up without compression. The files are a zipped archive -- zipped for PCZip. I think the recent versions of Stuffit will extract zipped files. Check out www.aladdinsys.com for a download. ======================== David Robison Stellar Processes From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 21 18:50:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA10217 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:50:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA29624; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA18406 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:58:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp86.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.186]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA19843 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:59:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <018901be8c3a$3659d000$734b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: Subject: Re: Joel Salatin Speaking at Claymont Farm CSA 4/20 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:02:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 762 Rex, Did you find time to attend Joel's pasture walk? Would love to know what you learned... Julie > Hopefully, given the short notice, Rex can make the time to attend and > report. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 21 21:19:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA12296 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:19:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15240; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:02:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12425 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-101.s38.as1.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.101]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id UAA02509 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:41:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <371E6FF6.A213C967@erols.com> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:40:22 -0400 From: Rex Harrill Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Joel Salatin Speaking at Claymont Farm CSA 4/20 References: <018901be8c3a$3659d000$734b2e9c@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 763 Julie wrote: > Rex, > > Did you find time to attend Joel's pasture walk? Would love to know what you > learned... I sent Allan a private note explaining that I couldn't reschedule an appointment near Baltimore, some 70 miles in the other direction. Sorry---perhaps next time. The real bummer is that I had access to a digital camera and had planned to provide instant pictures for the website. Regards, Rex Harrill From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 22 09:17:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA03818 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04690; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA27220 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:15:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.81] (pm3shep2-163-81.intrepid.net [209.190.163.81]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00868 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:19:46 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:20:10 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: The Biodynamic Honeybee Symposium Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id IAA27221 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 764 "That the life of the hive is extraordinarily wisely organized no one who has ever observed it can deny. Naturally, no one can say that the bees have the same kind of intelligence that men have, for we certainly have the instrument of the brain, whereas the bees have nothing of the kind; thus the universal world wisdom cannot be drawn into their bodies in the same way. But influences coming from the whole surrounding universe do, none the less, work with immense power in the bee-hive. Indeed, one can only arrive at a right understanding of what the life of the bees truly is, when one takes into account that the whole environment of the earth has a very great influence upon the life of the colony." Rudolf Steiner 1923 9 Lectures on Bees THE BIODYNAMIC HONEYBEE SYMPOSIUM #1 Honeybee Health #2 The Hive Box #3 Springtime in the Apiary #4 Swarming #5 Beekeeper Practices #6 The Spiritual Side Past Symposiums available by mail, email, or at this web site!! Http://www.igg.com/spiritual ag/european/steiner/beekeeping/beesymposium/ (Thanks to Allan Balliett) Jim Jensen 87 Howard St. NE Atlanta, GA 30317 (404) 371-0341 email - bdnut@mindspring.com Greetings. Having briefly covered the most important subjects in Biodynamic beekeeping, I must now yield to my lifeís demands and put the BDHS on hold. I am very thankful to all who have contributed their knowledge for the edification of us all. In this information age I still find it difficult to find knowledge. The experiences shared here have contained many nuggets of wisdom for anyone motivated to dig. If you need copies of the symposium - give a ring, and donít hesitate to copy this for anyone who is interested. It is why we did this. It is my intention to actively seek out more information and news about the present challenges to beekeeping. PLEASE, if you can,drop me a line with any news or information. I would consider a news bulletin to everyone if something big were to come down the pike. I would love to do this again if there is interest and cause. Let me close with one last thank you to all who have helped. I have received many thanks from recipients of the symposium. As for myself, I KNOW the stamps, donations and blackberry jam were the smiles I needed to do this. Thanks. Jim Jensen From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 22 10:53:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11220 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:53:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04911; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA28458 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-146.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-146.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.146]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA38640 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:29:46 GMT Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:29:46 GMT Message-Id: <199904221229.MAA38640@out2.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: OFF: blood type diet Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 765 Anita, At 09:24 AM 4/21/99 EST5EDT, you wrote: >If this diet has worked for you than that's great. Maybe I would >have a similar response, I don't know. It would be interesting to >see some statistics on how many people really feel they benefit from >this diet compared with some control diet. There are just so many >"diets" coming down the pike everyday that I imagine that one could >have an entire library of them, with a whole big section on the ones >that have been shown to have "scientific" validity. I agree. In fact I have boxes of diet books that are supposedly healthy - and they may well be for some individuals. I think the problem comes from someone finding a method that works for them, or a select group; they get a figure like 60% of people benefit or something, then the diet is enshrined. Also they think that what works for them must work for everyone. In the blood type approach, the book was 18 years in the making in terms of the experiences of many people being guided by Dr D'Adamo, and before him his father, also an ND. BTW, while I think the blood-type connection is the most significant discovery in nutrition, I don't consider the book to be very well presented - it has too much emphasis on losing weight. But as a guideline it has helped many people, as evidenced by the email on an email list, and comments at the D'Adamo web site. ( http://www.dadamo.com ) >I have a good friend who goes to a chiropractor who put her and her >family on a diet free of carbohydrate-rich foods, ie, it is basically >meat and vegetables -- no grains or grain products of any kind. She >swears it has made a world of difference to her (though every time I >call her it seems she's "just getting over" a cold or flu which is >what the diet was supposedly helping her with....) I personally have >found that I feel best on a carbohydrate-rich diet -- lots of whole >grains and their products, lots of vegetables, some fruit, little to >no meat. I don't know whose diet plan I may be inadvertantly >following (or violently crossing?) but I'm sure that some would >justify it, some would say I oughtta be fat or dead by now. I happen >to be AB+, can you tell how I fit or don't fit into this diet? Specially good foods for AB's in general are tofu, seafood (selected ones) dairy (goat, some other) and green vegetables. Best cereals are millet, oatmeal, spelt, puffed rice, oat bran and rice-bran. Avoids are Kidney beans, lima beans, seeds, corn, buckwheat, wheat. But these are only the most important ones. For the latest revisions of the food lists see http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~sshapiro/ER4YT/ER4YT.html >I do not know what "lectins" are, having only first heard them in the >discussion of that scientist and his rat-potato experiments which >caused alarm over GMO's and got the guy fired, etc. I was under the >impression that whatever they are, they're bad. I didn't realize >they were commonly available in normal foods. I would like to know >more about this. Can you tell me more? > Here is a rough idea, I'm not an expert though: Lectins are a certain category of proteins. They have the same receptors as the immune systems, so depending on the lectin it will attach to elements such as antigens ( or the antigens attach to them) thus resulting in agglutination of the blood. On the other hand, if the lectin is compatible with the immune system it can often assist it to do its job better. So there are good, bad and indifferent lectins. BUT a good lectin for one blood type can be a bad one for another. ( And this can explain why it can be of little benefit to test a food by feeding rats or mice - unless they have similar immune systems, of course). It so happens that the immune system in the lining of the digestive tract tends to follow the ABO blood groupings, with some other groupings (MN, etc) represented in a more minor way. Although (in my opinion) there probably is lectin activity in relation to other tissues in the body, first these lectins have to pass through the barrier presented by the digestive tract. As an example of this, I include the following, which is copied from an e-mail I received: > "Food lectins, including those lectins from wheat and corn, have been shown to > bind to the fat cell's insulin receptor and inactivate triglyceride lipase. > Unlike insulin, however, these lectins do not have any feedback control, and can > bind irreversibly to the insulin receptor. In this situation the fat cell is > permanently paralyzed, capable of only storing fat, but not releasing it. This > explains why some people gain weight on a high carbohydrate diet: It is not the > calories in the food, or the percentages of fat, protein and carbohydrate that > are causing the weight gain (after all, most carbohydrates are low-calorie) but > rather the lectins in the food itself acting to mimic the effects of naturally > occurring hormones. ------ People have varying reactions to trying the diet, and varying expectations. It depends to some extent on what foods one chooses out of the possibilities - its quite possible to eat beneficial foods but have poor nutrition if there is not an adequate selection of foods. And it depends on individual differences, which need sorting out. After being on the diet for over a year, I find my immune system reacting to foods that I used to eat in quantity. I do get the occasional cold, but tend to recover much quicker. I hope this helps. Lynton From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 22 12:16:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15083 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:16:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00899; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29233 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:30:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00BB4496@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:34:23 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 22 Apr 99 11:34:44 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 22 Apr 99 11:34:43 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:34:37 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF: blood type diet Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199904221229.MAA38640@out2.ibm.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <359D6953072@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 766 > In the blood type approach, the book was 18 years in the making in terms of > the experiences of many people being guided by Dr D'Adamo, and before him > his father, also an ND. > BTW, while I think the blood-type connection is the most significant > discovery in nutrition, I don't consider the book to be very well presented > - it has too much emphasis on losing weight. But as a guideline it has > helped many people, as evidenced by the email on an email list, and comments > at the D'Adamo web site. ( http://www.dadamo.com ) Very interesting. I had no idea that there was more thought behind this diet than, "what's the next weight-loss gimick we can come up with?" I think that the last straw had been laid on this camel's back when that body-type (pear-shape, apple-shape, etc.) came out. You have piqued my curiosity, however, so I'll take a look at these websites. > After being on the diet for over a year, I find my immune system reacting to > foods that I used to eat in quantity. I do get the occasional cold, but > tend to recover much quicker. This is interesting. Are you saying that the benefits you percieve from this diet outweigh the new sensitivity to foods which most people consider quite healthful? I mean, I cannot eat donuts now, for example, as they make me sick to my stomach (whereas I think there was a time when I could), but I don't consider this a negative. Except for the time I spent living in the Dominican Republic, I have almost never gotten sick with colds and flues. I have my down days, however, though I would say that in general my health is excellent. And I do eat most of the "bad lectin" foods (as well as the good ones) you mentioned for my blood type. I'm curious to try the food discrimation you suggested (wondering what new levels of health and well being there may be that I am unaware of), but I'm also a little leery of later on having reactions to those "bad lectins" if I were to decide that the benefit of this way of eating was not enough incentive for me. Do you think these are silly concerns? Well, I'll have a look at the website in the meantime. Thanks for your interesting response, Lynton. Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 22 17:07:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA29517 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22597; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:54:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22520 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:53:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-114.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-114.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.114]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA40868 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:57:55 GMT Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:57:55 GMT Message-Id: <199904222057.UAA40868@out4.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: OFF: blood type diet Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 767 > Are you saying that the benefits you percieve >from this diet outweigh the new sensitivity to foods which most >people consider quite healthful? I mean, I cannot eat donuts now, >for example, as they make me sick to my stomach (whereas I think >there was a time when I could), but I don't consider this a negative. Yes the benefits are worthwhile for me, although I find it inconvenient in a lot of ways ( eating out especially, though this had been a problem anyway with wanting to eat organic food). One benefit is a feeling of physical well-being, another is the ability to think more clearly. Not to say that it comes the first day, it took me quite a long time. > but I'm also a little >leery of later on having reactions to those "bad lectins" if I were >to decide that the benefit of this way of eating was not enough >incentive for me. Do you think these are silly concerns? Sure, its worth thinking about. However, I consider that every child goes through this to some extent ( though I don't know how far their immune system has developed by the time they start on food - some start on cow's milk from birth: consider that in the light that this is an avoid for some. I wonder if the difficulty that some/many children have around mealtime is related to this). I also wonder to what extent the digestive flora help in dealing with 'bad' lectins. But anyway, the body probably does 'adapt' in time - it already did before, so it probably would again. The question is would you think it worth it? One consideration : what if one's supply of beneficial foods was interupted for some time? How would we cope on avoids? There is another aspect to this: the elimination of the garbage that the body has accumulated over the years (this can produce symptoms of various sorts ). I tend to think that its the fact of the garbage that suppresses the immune system enough to prevent the acute reactions to some negative foods; the result is a chronic condition coping and even demanding the 'fix' (interesting how some of the negative foods are so addictive). You are fortunate with your excellent health, Anita. Good luck with whatever you decide to do. Lynton PS: there are people who have recovered from serious long-term conditions largely through this way of eating. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 22 18:53:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04588 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA29433; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29292 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (whan-010.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.110]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24811 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:39:21 +1200 Message-ID: <007f01be8d0f$76ba4fa0$6ef631ca@oemcomputer> From: "g&y bodle" To: "BD List" Subject: Thanks for Chromotography Help Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:22:14 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01BE8D6A.C63897C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 768 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BE8D6A.C63897C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Hugh, Charlie, Robert, and others, Thanks for your help and ideas.=20 We will be pitting them into use soon. Much appreciated, Gareth bodle Whangarei NZ ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BE8D6A.C63897C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Hugh, Charlie, Robert, and=20 others,
 
Thanks for your help and ideas. =
 
We will be pitting them into use=20 soon.
Much appreciated,
Gareth bodle
Whangarei = NZ
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BE8D6A.C63897C0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 22 23:22:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA15189 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14831; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA14619 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:05:04 -0400 (EDT) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA16854; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:08:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:08:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md17-05.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.133) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma016757; Thu Apr 22 22:07:11 1999 To: r.simpson@erols.com To: Philyour@aol.com To: jkliwinski@aol.com To: dgregory@eden.rutgers.edu To: Compostgal@aol.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <199942223943511478@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Fwd: Full hearing on Gene-Modified hazards to be heard in British Court X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 769 ------Begin forward message------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from chmls06.mediaone.net (chmls06.mediaone.net [24.128.1.71]) by ixmail3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7/(NETCOM v1.01)) with ESMTP id HAA11166; for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mediaone.net (jasonab.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.238.221]) by chmls06.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12154; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:30:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <371DE093.A2DAD937@mediaone.net> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:28:35 -0400 From: Jason Boehk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Abby E Franklin Subject: Full hearing on Gene-Modified hazards to be heard in British Court Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could this be the next "McLibel" trial in Britain? --Jason The Guardian 21/4/99 Today's UK News Full hearing on GM hazards By Paul Brown, Environment Correspondent Wednesday April 21, 1999 Monsanto, the giant US biotech company, failed in the High Court yesterday to silence campaigners who pulled up the company's genetically modified plants, and now faces a high-profile trial in which the defendants will claim they were acting lawfully to protect society against the dangers posed by GM crops. The company had asked for a permanent and sweeping injunction banning six named defendants and anyone associated with their organisation, GenetiX Snowball, from interfering with any of their crops again. This would have effectively prevented them explaining in court why they dug up the crops. Mr Justice Klavan continued the existing temporary injunction but said the issue had to go to full trial because the defendants had an arguable case that they were acting in the public interest. The defendants cheered the decision as the judge left the court. They will now be able to call scientists and other expert witnesses to explain why they believe they were justified in breaking the law for the greater good of society effectively putting genetically modified crops and Monsanto on trial. Three of the defendants, Kathryn Tulip, Melanie Jarman, and Zoe Elford, are defending themselves, while Rowan Tilly, Jo Hamilton, and the only male defendant, Andrew Wood, are represented by Owen Davies QC. The judge said the case should proceed to full trial because the defendants had raised the issue of'justification in the public interest' and he was satisfied that sufficient legitimate arguments had been raised to have a full trial. Simon Barker, for Monsanto, said that the company had a licence to grow crops and any complaints should be made to the Health and Safet Executive. It was not open to the defendants to improperly damage the goods of biotech companies 'Unlawful conduct against the property of anotther person for political purposes cannot be justified. If it were so, it would be of legitimate concern for any business whose activities came under public scrutiny.' Melanie Jarman said afterwards: 'It is a fantastic judgement for us, everything that we wanted. We can look forward to a full trial in which the issues of what these crops will do to the environment, the cross-pollination to other crops, to the actions of biotech companies creating poverty in the developing countries and the damage to food security can all be addressed by expert witnesses. 'All the public interest issues on what genetic engineering is doing to the world can be addressed in open court.' Andrew Wood, publicity officer for the group, said a full trial would require Monsanto to disclose many documents about genetic engineering. 'We are going to learn a great deal about what is really going on.' The six defendants will draw heavily on the case prepared for two women who faced trial in March The Crown Prosecution Service dropped the charges. A second injunction was granted last Thursday against the six defendants and anyone on the organisation's mailing list. The application by AgrEvo UK and Plant Genetic System was in response to a planned demonstration on Saturday. GenetiX Snowball will use a public interest defence to challenge that injunction. ------End forward message--------------------------- Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD Remember DDT? The agriculture chemical that was banned because it was killing off the bald eagles (and everything else)? Well, we still eat DDT on imported produce and food products. Moreover, GATT allows for over 50% higher residue rates than the US government (as if ANY residue of DDT is "acceptible!"). Food is power... are you in control of yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 22 23:22:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA15202 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:22:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14798; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA14581 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:04:19 -0400 (EDT) From: beanman@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA25426; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:00:02 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:00:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md17-05.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.133) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma025333; Thu Apr 22 21:59:47 1999 To: spiney@erols.com To: RWaynor@aol.com To: ronitodd@hotmail.com To: rikonigsberg@sai2000.com To: r.simpson@erols.com To: Philyour@aol.com To: LisaLevinson@earthlink.net To: jmarino@evanseast.com To: jkliwinski@aol.com To: jasonab@mediaone.net To: jackie_foley@yahoo.com To: GillerJ@nabisco.com To: email2fm@aol.com To: ecofarm@accokeek.org To: dmryan@mailexcite.com To: dgregory@eden.rutgers.edu To: dan_verin@hotmail.com To: Compostgal@aol.com To: community_garden@mallorn.com To: BresslerZ@panasonic.com To: bhappy14@juno.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-Id: <199942223215541@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Daily Prayer and Prayer Day June 21, by Arvol Looking Horse X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 770 Hello Family and Friends, I'm hoping you'll take Chief Looking Horse's invitation, even if just to think some more positive thoughts. I'd further his call to suggest you detach from the mass glam media that throws horror at us daily. To we really need to "know" how many people died and in what horrible ways? Rather than bear this weight, use the energy to focus on peace in this world, for we create this reality and it is up to us to create our future. What steps do you really want to see the human race take? What efforts will you make to ensure those steps are taken? In faith, John >From Chief Arvol Looking Horse via PAN Central: IMPORTANT STATEMENT ON YUGOSLAVIA My name is Chief Arvol Looking Horse of the Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota Nation, I would like to share a viewpoint about the "Ethnic Cleansing", mass killing of innocent people in Yugoslavia. I am the Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe of Peace, a gift of a sacred bundle given nineteen generations ago to my people providing guidance of teachings for assurance of Peace within our lives. The White Buffalo Calf Woman gave this gift of the Sacred Pipe providing guidance of teachings for assurance of Peace within our lives. Along with these teachings of this Sacred Pipe of Peace, has been prophecies passed down from significant people who walked their harmony. They based their lives on teachings given from sacred bundles, such as the Sacred Buffalo Calf Pipe or many other gifts of bundles and teachings from the Creator. They foretold of these times of great change, which coincide with many other Nations' archives recording their own Prophecies. The reality of the accuracy of these Prophecies which has predicted events upon Mother Earth, as well as the history of our own people, have come to pass, so we have learned to pay attention. There are foretold Prophecies of a very dark time, more significant than any other times in History. We will be at a crossroads in which a dark cloud will envelop the earth, chaos and diseases will erupt and we will witness blood from our relative's eyes. Humankind has to make a decision and have courage to make a stand for Peace, even when their relatives' minds are restrained from spiritual awareness of healing the mind. We still have a chance to choose to make a change.Mother Earth is a living spirit that clothes, feeds and nourishes all walks of life, but when fighting erupts, the land and life cease to flourish, as well as the spirit of humankind. Mother Earth needs our help!I call upon the World to Pray at once for Peace, to make your stand spiritually, you must see the ignorance of this situation in Yugoslavia will only make us blinder to our own empowerment of making a positive change for our next generations to come. Pray with me every day at 10:00 AM Central Time for a peaceful resolution to this continuing destruction of the World. You must realize this "disease of the mind" will spread even faster, if we don't take control of our behavior. I have been initiating an event called "World Peace and Prayer Day" to bring awareness of these times by uniting the world spiritually on June 21st, praying at the sacred sites, for Global Healing, this being the fourth year to the South in Costa Rica. When this day arrives, please pilgrimage to your local sacred site and continue the daily praying that has been done at the time of 10:00 AM Central Time. This is an invitation to the Serbian and Yugoslavian representatives to participate, whether it be in Costa Rica or at your own sacred place of prayer. Please begin to learn to understand the meaning of "Walking in harmony and Peace" in having the courage to transform ourspiritual consciousness to love and compassion! This is the real challenge and courage in life. As one of our spiritual leaders, Black Elk once said: "One who walks a dark road is distracted, who is ruled by his senses and who lives for himself, rather than for his people". Please "Look upon your children, with their children in their arms, that they may face the winds and walk to the day of quiet."From which there is no beginning and no ending in the Sacred Hoop of Life, I am sending you this message of Peace from my heart and the sacred altar, may our prayers for Peace be heard, may peace with you all... Hetcetuyelo! Mitakuye Oyasin (all my relations), Chief Arvol Looking Horse, 19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe of Peace Happy Gardening, John Edward Verin Senior Apprentice Ecosystem Farm Accokeek, MD Remember DDT? The agriculture chemical that was banned because it was killing off the bald eagles (and everything else)? Well, we still eat DDT on imported produce and food products. Moreover, GATT allows for over 50% higher residue rates than the US government (as if ANY residue of DDT is "acceptible!"). Food is power... are you in control of yours? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 24 23:30:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA27027 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA25779; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:16:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eugnpop1.eugn.uswest.net (eugnpop1.eugn.uswest.net [207.109.240.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA25543 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:12:37 -0400 (EDT) From: jrei@uswest.net Received: (qmail 25843 invoked by alias); 25 Apr 1999 03:16:48 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-bdnow@envirolink.org@fixme Received: (qmail 25828 invoked by uid 0); 25 Apr 1999 03:16:47 -0000 Received: from dialupb215.eugn.uswest.net (HELO pop.eugn.uswest.net) (209.180.176.215) by eugnpop1.eugn.uswest.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 1999 03:16:47 -0000 Message-ID: <3722878A.39D74169@pop.eugn.uswest.net> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 20:10:02 -0700 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, Rex Harrill Subject: Re: Off: Fw: [GE]: Bt and its toxin References: <005001be8ac0$943f8fa0$55431ccb@bio> <371BD2E8.93836972@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 771 Right now, a case is pending before the US District Court of appeals that may strike a serious blow to the ability for companies to patent plants. The court case is based on the argument that the US congress never meant for seed propagated plants to be patented. You can read a "friend of the court" brief at www.aipla.org/pioneer-hibred.html supporting the case for plant patenting. Many financial papers are are calling this case absolutely critical to the continued growth of varieties resulting from gene transfer. I reported this about 2 weeks ago but have yet to see any other comment! Joel Rex Harrill wrote: > Cheryl Kemp submitted another bit in the ongoing horror about genetic > engineering: > > > >Bt-crops are probably the most important transgenic crops: Bt-maize, > > >Bt-cotton, Bt-potatoes or Bt-rice grow on fields all over the world. 14 > > out > > >of 43 commercialised transgenic crops in the US are Bt-crops. Furthermore, > > >in the US there is a giant patent-battle going on over who will get > > >monopoly controll over these crops: Up to June 1998, 482 patents had been > > >submitted or awarded mentioning Bt, some 95 of these patents involve > > >transgenic plants. The top ten patentees hold 62% of all patents, with Dow > > >holding 98 and Novartis 36 patents. (Robin Jenkins, in 'Seedling, Sept.'98) > > > > In my mind, this is the real trouble with GE: patents. Remove life-forms from > the patent system and the monstrous genie just might return to the bottle for > another thousand years. I suggest unmitigated *war* against GE in all its > forms. There has never been a bigger threat to life as we know it. I hope > those Europeans who destroy GE fields, and go to jail for it, know what heros I > consider them. > > Regards, > Rex Harrill From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Apr 24 23:47:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA27244 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:47:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA26496; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:34:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goofy.arcom.com.au (root@main-gw.arcom.senet.com.au [203.56.239.50]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26448 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:34:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ruicaish (c4-p6.arcom.com.au [203.152.250.199]) by goofy.arcom.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA03634 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 13:07:36 +0930 Message-ID: <000e01be8f57$6f100480$c7fa98cb@ruicaish> From: "Vincent Brown" To: Subject: Seed growth Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 13:04:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE8F1C.2EE88840" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 772 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE8F1C.2EE88840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Would it be a fair assumption to say that the newly planted seed is = heated by it's own decomposition in the ground, triggering it to 'start = up' and sprout after lying dormant for so long? =20 Vincent. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE8F1C.2EE88840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Would it be a fair assumption to say that the newly planted seed = is=20 heated by it’s own decomposition in the ground, triggering it to = 'start up' and=20 sprout after lying dormant for so long?  

Vincent.

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE8F1C.2EE88840-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 25 02:17:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA28343 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 02:17:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA02083; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 02:04:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA02037 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 02:02:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (whan-047.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.147]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02594 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 18:05:28 +1200 Message-ID: <000801be8ee0$17f1e5a0$93f631ca@oemcomputer> From: "g&y bodle" To: Subject: Re: Off: Fw: [GE]: Bt and its toxin Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 17:54:30 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 773 Dear Joel, I am very interested in the progress of this. please keep us informed. The cynic in me suggests that they are unlikely to prevent the ongoing madness, but the significance of what may be potentally achieved none the less deserves support and should be followed carefully. Cheers, And thanks for the info, Garety Bodle Whangarei NZ -----Original Message----- From: jrei@uswest.net To: bdnow@envirolink.org ; Rex Harrill Date: Sunday, 25 April 1999 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Off: Fw: [GE]: Bt and its toxin >Right now, a case is pending before the US District Court of appeals that may >strike a serious blow to the ability for companies to patent plants. The court case >is based on the argument that the US congress never meant for seed propagated >plants to be patented. You can read a "friend of the court" brief at >www.aipla.org/pioneer-hibred.html supporting the case for plant patenting. Many >financial papers are are calling this case absolutely critical to the continued >growth of varieties resulting from gene transfer. I reported this about 2 weeks ago >but have yet to see any other comment! >Joel > >Rex Harrill wrote: > >> Cheryl Kemp submitted another bit in the ongoing horror about genetic >> engineering: >> >> > >Bt-crops are probably the most important transgenic crops: Bt-maize, >> > >Bt-cotton, Bt-potatoes or Bt-rice grow on fields all over the world. 14 >> > out >> > >of 43 commercialised transgenic crops in the US are Bt-crops. Furthermore, >> > >in the US there is a giant patent-battle going on over who will get >> > >monopoly controll over these crops: Up to June 1998, 482 patents had been >> > >submitted or awarded mentioning Bt, some 95 of these patents involve >> > >transgenic plants. The top ten patentees hold 62% of all patents, with Dow >> > >holding 98 and Novartis 36 patents. (Robin Jenkins, in 'Seedling, Sept.'98) >> > >> >> In my mind, this is the real trouble with GE: patents. Remove life-forms from >> the patent system and the monstrous genie just might return to the bottle for >> another thousand years. I suggest unmitigated *war* against GE in all its >> forms. There has never been a bigger threat to life as we know it. I hope >> those Europeans who destroy GE fields, and go to jail for it, know what heros I >> consider them. >> >> Regards, >> Rex Harrill > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 25 07:13:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA29728 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 07:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA07056; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 07:00:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand5.global.net.uk (exim@sand5.global.net.uk [194.126.80.249]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA06989 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 06:59:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p25s09a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.217.38] helo=compaq) by sand5.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 10bMh6-0004Y6-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 12:03:29 +0100 Message-ID: <3722F59E.7199@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 11:59:42 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Clabbering milk for cheese References: <000801be8ee0$17f1e5a0$93f631ca@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 774 To G & Y Bodle The Giant Purple Thistle found throughout the America You should use the florets after they have turned brown and the best way to achieve this is to pick them and put them in some sort of bag to dry for a year,clabbering with thistle usually works overnight. So the next Summer after you put them away you get them out and you mash them with a little warm water in a suribachi or mortar and pestle the water should just cover the dried thistles,its best to let them soak 5 minutes or so before mashing them,leave to soak mash again for 5 minutes do it 3 or so times and then you will see the residue turns brown ,at this stage strain,and then add a heaped teaspoonful to a quart of warm milk but dont exceed this otherwise it can spoil the taste of the cheese. If you want you can tie the dried heads up with a piece of thread preferably white cotton and dip it in the milk leaving a bit of cotton long enough to pull them out when it has been clabbered. Don't put the head in loose for you may then end up with a feeling like hairs in your mouth(not a pleasant feeling) Press the curd Another method is using a Perrenial herb called Ladies Bedstraw (Galium Verum)this is a sprawling yellow plant found in dry grassy places,it quite likes sand and can be found on dunes and can be used as a decoction to clabber milk.The flowers when fresh make a wonderful herbal tea tasting of honey,but as the flowers dry it smells more of Hay.Folk tales seem to suggest it was once used by Mary on her bed when she gave birth to Jesus and the original white flowers it possessed were turned to gold as its reward. It can also be chopped up and added to the warm milk so that the acid it possesses curdles If you simmer the roots in a small quantity of white wine it makes the most gorgeous red dye And I have also heard clabbering can be done with the safflowers too! Hope this helps Regards Rex Tyler From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 25 10:30:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00720 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:30:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12130; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11994 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:15:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([204.143.224.77]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:24:27 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:19:33 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: April 25, 1999 - May 01, 1999 Message-ID: <4FA5743AEBEFE46C8525675E004EACA8.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id KAA11995 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 775 Calendar of the Soul [April 25, 1999 - May 01, 1999] Fourth Week (April 28-May 4) I sense a kindred nature to my own: Thus speaks perceptive feeling As in the sun-illuminated world It merges with the floods of light; To thinking's clarity My feeling would give warmth And firmly bind as one The human being and the world. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Ich fühle Wesen meines Wesens: So spricht Empfindung, Die in der sonnerhellten Welt Mit Lichtesfluten sich vereint; Sie will dem Denken Zur Klarheit Wärme schenken Und Mensch und Welt In Einheit fest verbinden. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+04 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 25 10:30:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00728 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:30:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12092; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:17:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.infohouse.com (mail.infohouse.com [204.143.176.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11971 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:15:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity ([204.143.224.77]) by mail.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 141-59479U3500L350S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:24:08 -0400 From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:19:14 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF:METROPOLIS: Visionaries spread the Virgin's cult Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 776 (From the Financial Times) METROPOLIS: Visionaries spread the Virgin's cult "I have an appointment with the Virgin Mary here at Angelo's Trattoria every 23rd of the month," said Pino Casagrande, as he finished his lunch, and looked out at the dozens of believers who were beginning to gather in the grassy car park. "I have been seeing visions of the Madonna since 1986 - every day in a different place. She told me to 'go to where I cried', and as the church with the little Madonna which weeps blood is just down the road, I come here." Casagrande, 75, was far from impressed with the crowds on this sunny spring day outside Civitavecchia, on the coast some 50 miles west of Rome. "I travel 12,000km every month, around Italy and abroad, and I am used to having 4,000 to 5,000 people," he remarked. "Let them wait." As Angelo brought coffee and liquorice-flavoured sambuca, Casagrande - the "itinerant visionary", as he is known - described the Virgin. Beautiful, blonde and dressed in gold, she is surrounded by angels, and speaks Aramaic in dirge-like tones, which he somehow understands and transcribes into Italian. Casagrande is not an isolated case in Italy. As the end of the second millennium approaches, droves of Italians are abandoning traditional church services, and flocking to alternative Roman Catholic shrines, lay visionaries, healers and exorcists. Statuettes are spouting tears or blood as never before, and sightings of the Virgin are so common that their locations are taking over from the long-established Marian pilgrimage sites. While the Vatican can easily condemn the "superstition" of the one in four Italians who consult astrologists, "magicians", fortune-tellers or occultists, its embarrassment is growing with its own cult of the paranormal. With 10m to 20m visitors and pilgrims expected to visit Rome for the millennium celebrations next year, there is also another fear that although many will pay their respects in St Peter's, large numbers will be more interested in shrines and visionaries not sanctioned by the Church. Meanwhile, at Angelo's Trattoria, the faithful were pouring in to greet Casagrande and to look at his famous Polaroid photographs, which curiously develop with paintings of the Virgin or the face of Christ. "It's faith that brings us here," said Albertina Fabrizi, a middle-aged woman with an impressive black beehive hairdo. She, too, had her own photos, mostly of the sky or the sun, with strange flashes, shapes or configurations that, from a certain angle, resembled the Virgin, Jesus, or numbers. One cloud had a wobbly "23" on it, "which is a sign that the Lord wants me to go to Casagrande, because that is the day he comes here". Outside the trattoria, some 80 pilgrims, a mix of old, young, families and children, had begun to pray and sing hymns. It is largely followers such as these who fund the visionary's travels, and provide accommodation for him and his wife. Casagrande took his place in the circle of white plastic chairs, next to an empty one covered in lace and bearing a plaque reading "For the heavenly Mama". After a trance-inducing repetition of Hail Marys, all went quiet, and Casagrande fell to his knees, his arms raised. A rush of clicks and whirring followed, as numerous cameras were pointed at the sun. "Look, it's the door to paradise," whispered Anna Scotto, an elegant woman in black leather, as she passed around a fresh picture of the sky with a large white rectangle obscuring its centre. Several people pointed out the perfume of roses in the air. "You can always smell roses at home later, not just at the time of the vision," claimed Antonella Schiamo, a young mother of two, who has been coming with her husband and children to see Casagrande for two years. The Church's reaction to Catholic visionaries is one of scepticism and lack of interest. Michele Fuss of Rome's Grigoriana University claims that most of the new wave visionaries are false. "They are part of the same phenomenon as the New Age search for spirituality and the invisible world, even though they use a Christian symbolism. "The contents of the revelations are usually theologically contradictory; we must not forget that the central figure of our religion is Jesus Christ, and not the saints or the Madonna," he said. Such is the Vatican's fear of frauds and charlatans that its own endorsement of miracles is growing in controversy. Pope John Paul II has gone into overdrive creating saints (a process which requires miracles), and yet the very people who report mir-acles and visions are becoming alienated and angry. Vittorio Messori, a leading commentator on religious affairs, has accused the Church of being "theologically correct, a tragic-omic sub-species of the politically correct". In the case of one sanctuary associated with miraculous cures (Le Fontanelle - a "little Lourdes" of northern Italy), the organisation which runs it is so angered by the Vatican's dismissiveness that it is planning a pro test march in Rome. In cases such as the bleeding Madonna of Civitavecchia, which has been formally recognised by the Vatican as "a sign of the presence of the Virgin Mary", Fuss stresses the importance of "scientific verification", and of "educating the people". In the meantime, thousands of pilgrims visit Civitavecchia, and the statuette which wept blood in 1995 has become yet another Marian shrine. It is particularly beloved of drug addicts, some of whose syringes line the walls in testimony of their "miraculous" cures. As Casagrande sat slowly writing down the message from the Madonna, a salesman from "Sign of the Supernatural" laid out copies of the monthly magazine which, during the past decade, has become the mouthpiece for believers in the Catholic paranormal. According to its editor, Piero Mantero, people are turning to visionaries because they find a warm, intimate religion, which modern priests are unable to give. The Church, and particularly the bishops, "are critical and negative. They are frightened of these things, and want to distance themselves. There is now a split between the 'rationalist' Church and an active section of the laity, many of whom are converted because of irrational, emotional experiences." After Casagrande finished reading his message from the Virgin (as always, one of hope, love, faith and exhortation to pray), the faithful bought pamphlets and books published by the "Sign of the Supernatural". A quick look through confirms that other contemporary visionaries also smell of roses, see the heavenly "Mama" on specific days of the month, and are associated with weird Polaroid photographs. Notwithstanding the Vatican's conservative scepticism, and its pleas for scientific rationality, there seems to be no stopping the revival of the cult of the Virgin as it spreads through the Catholic world. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 25 15:19:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA02826 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:19:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26365; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:06:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26295 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-87.s24.as1.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.87]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA26693 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:10:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3723684A.1D94F05F@erols.com> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:08:58 -0400 From: Rex Harrill Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" Subject: [Fwd: Looking for herb businesses] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 777 Something that came to me from another list... HERBWORLD@aol.com wrote: > We're in the process of publishing a series of regional herb business guides > that will be marketed through bookstores, area herb shops, garden centers and > online. These will be targeted to consumers (not looking for wholesale sources > here) and can include shops, practitioners, gardens, schools/educational > programs....anything of interest to the general public. Each business will be > able to give a profile of themselves and to get extra exposure we'll add your > logo (if available) and up to 5 favorite recipes (culinary, cosmetic or > medicinal) with your profile. We're beginning with the New England area (CT, > ME, NH, RI), VT, MA) and the Pacific Northwest (OR, BC, WA, AK and northern > CA). These will be available by July 1 (we work quick) with additional ones > coming out in the fall. If you'd like to be included in these publications > please contact me at > herbworld@aol.com > I need all material no later than 6/1/99 > > Maureen Rogers > The Herb Growing & Marketing Network > PO Box 245, Silver Spring, PA 17575-0245; 717-393-3295; FAX: 717-393-9261 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Apr 25 15:40:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA02985 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:40:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28067; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand5.global.net.uk (exim@sand5.global.net.uk [194.126.80.249]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27923 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:26:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p26s06a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.214.39] helo=compaq) by sand5.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 10bUbg-0001qT-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 20:30:24 +0100 Message-ID: <37236C39.6F06@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 20:25:45 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Looking for herb businesses] References: <3723684A.1D94F05F@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 778 Rex Harrill wrote: > > Something that came to me from another list... > > HERBWORLD@aol.com wrote: > > > We're in the process of publishing a series of regional herb business guides > > that will be marketed through bookstores, area herb shops, garden centers and > > online. These will be targeted to consumers (not looking for wholesale sources > > here) and can include shops, practitioners, gardens, schools/educational > > programs....anything of interest to the general public. Each business will be > > able to give a profile of themselves and to get extra exposure we'll add your > > logo (if available) and up to 5 favorite recipes (culinary, cosmetic or > > medicinal) with your profile. We're beginning with the New England area (CT, > > ME, NH, RI), VT, MA) and the Pacific Northwest (OR, BC, WA, AK and northern > > CA). These will be available by July 1 (we work quick) with additional ones > > coming out in the fall. If you'd like to be included in these publications > > please contact me at > > > herbworld@aol.com > > > I need all material no later than 6/1/99 > > > > Maureen Rogers > > The Herb Growing & Marketing Network > > PO Box 245, Silver Spring, PA 17575-0245; 717-393-3295; FAX: 717-393-9261 It seems I shall need one of those biodynamic time machines if anyone knows where I can purchase one? Rex Tyler From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 26 09:43:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13990 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25726; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25514 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.102.66.88] (pm3bky1-66-88.intrepid.net [206.102.66.88]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA27969 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:32:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199904261332.JAA27969@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: Re: OFF:METROPOLIS: Visionaries spread the Virgin's cult Date: Mon, 26 Apr 99 08:37:17 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 779 The Virgin Mary is the only remnant of goddess worship that survived to modern times. Now that we are approaching the "2" millennium, with the implied feminine quality of the number "2", the goddess is returning. Mother Nature is emerging, once again, as a major player on the world scene. Other astrological timers of this feminization and emphasis on sacred wilderness are Saturn in Taurus (until 2001) and Pluto in Sagittarius (until 2010.) The explosion of interest in herbalism (also a concern of the goddess path) is another sign. It's truly Grrl power at its most divine. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 26 11:24:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16229 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:24:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05074; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04670 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:08:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.15.39]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:13:53 +0100 Message-ID: <372482EC.10DE@cwcom.net> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:14:52 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Looking for herb businesses] References: <3723684A.1D94F05F@erols.com> <37236C39.6F06@globalnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 780 Rex - I did a double take too - but don't forget that this outfit is in the US, where they write their dates month/day/year. I remember reading a whole (not very good) detective novel based on British mis- understanding of abbreviated American dates. Do you think they'd be interested in producing a UK edition ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 26 16:31:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA27808 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:31:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06324; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05914 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:15:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00BE23B1@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:19:09 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 26 Apr 99 16:19:31 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 26 Apr 99 16:19:15 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:19:09 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: time machine Priority: normal In-reply-to: <372482EC.10DE@cwcom.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <3BE98645C62@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 781 > Rex - I did a double take too - but don't forget that this outfit is in > the US, where they write their dates month/day/year. I remember reading > a whole (not very good) detective novel based on British mis- > understanding of abbreviated American dates. Do you think they'd be > interested in producing a UK edition ? Tony N-S. Ah, thanks for clearing this up Tony! I did a double take on Rex's post too, but as the date clearly said "June" to me, I didn't understand a need for a time machine. I guess I'm formally over my culture shock of moving back to the US in '97! Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Apr 26 20:11:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA13683 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 20:11:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25178; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:58:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand5.global.net.uk (exim@sand5.global.net.uk [194.126.80.249]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25049 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:56:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p91s14a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.222.146] helo=compaq) by sand5.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 10bvJB-0007zk-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:01:05 +0100 Message-ID: <3724FD68.246@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 00:57:28 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: time machine References: <3BE98645C62@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 782 Anita Graf (Staff) wrote: > > > Rex - I did a double take too - but don't forget that this outfit is in > > the US, where they write their dates month/day/year. I remember reading > > a whole (not very good) detective novel based on British mis- > > understanding of abbreviated American dates. Do you think they'd be > > interested in producing a UK edition ? Tony N-S. > > Ah, thanks for clearing this up Tony! I did a double take on Rex's > post too, but as the date clearly said "June" to me, I didn't > understand a need for a time machine. I guess I'm formally over my > culture shock of moving back to the US in '97! Anita Thanks Tony & Anita I got that wrong didn't I! Sorry Rex Tyler From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Apr 27 08:18:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA25778 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA29203; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29148 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00BE94AE@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 8:07:31 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 27 Apr 99 08:07:54 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 27 Apr 99 08:07:47 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:07:44 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Off: Fw: [GE]: Bt and its toxin Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3722878A.39D74169@pop.eugn.uswest.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <3CE67FB26AD@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 783 > Right now, a case is pending before the US District Court of appeals that may > strike a serious blow to the ability for companies to patent plants. The court case > is based on the argument that the US congress never meant for seed propagated > plants to be patented. You can read a "friend of the court" brief at > www.aipla.org/pioneer-hibred.html supporting the case for plant patenting. Many > financial papers are are calling this case absolutely critical to the continued > growth of varieties resulting from gene transfer. I reported this about 2 weeks ago > but have yet to see any other comment! > Joel Joel, what's left to comment accept Halleleuya, May It Come To Pass!! > Rex Harrill wrote: > > > Cheryl Kemp submitted another bit in the ongoing horror about genetic > > engineering: > > > > > >Bt-crops are probably the most important transgenic crops: Bt-maize, > > > >Bt-cotton, Bt-potatoes or Bt-rice grow on fields all over the world. 14 > > > out > > > >of 43 commercialised transgenic crops in the US are Bt-crops. Furthermore, > > > >in the US there is a giant patent-battle going on over who will get > > > >monopoly controll over these crops: Up to June 1998, 482 patents had been > > > >submitted or awarded mentioning Bt, some 95 of these patents involve > > > >transgenic plants. The top ten patentees hold 62% of all patents, with Dow > > > >holding 98 and Novartis 36 patents. (Robin Jenkins, in 'Seedling, Sept.'98) > > > > > > > In my mind, this is the real trouble with GE: patents. Remove life-forms from > > the patent system and the monstrous genie just might return to the bottle for > > another thousand years. I suggest unmitigated *war* against GE in all its > > forms. There has never been a bigger threat to life as we know it. I hope > > those Europeans who destroy GE fields, and go to jail for it, know what heros I > > consider them. > > > > Regards, > > Rex Harrill > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 28 12:05:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29434 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:05:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27106; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:51:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA01934 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 06:21:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.64] (pm3shep4-163-188.intrepid.net [209.190.163.188]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA11089 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 06:26:06 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 06:26:45 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Kaolin Clay Sprays Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 784 Anyone else using the Kaolin Clay spray for fruit trees? It's commercially available as a 'crop protectant' on the West Coast. On the east coast, samples are available from Doug Britt of Ag-Life (a BD Now! member) and, most likely, will be commercially available from him later this year. The inventor of this 'film technology product' is Gary Puterka. Gary is a neighbor here in the Eastern Panhandle of West Virginia. He has agreed to once again speak at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening conference. This year he will report on the experimental successes of this product and we will actually spray some trees...something I'm looking forward to because I hope there are some 'tricks' to doing this! :-) Allan Balliett moderator BD Now! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 28 12:05:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29438 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:05:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26737; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:49:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12973 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:57:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.64] (pm3shep2-163-64.intrepid.net [209.190.163.64]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA01949 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:01:33 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:55:01 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: naos--Round IV Objectives Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id WAA12974 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 785 Hello everyone, Time for Round IV of objectives. I have included the objectives from Round III for your information. I reviewed all the messages relating to the vision and objectives for naos--it is this essence that should be accurately reflected in the objectives. Below is my attempt to synthesize and move us forward. naos Round III Objectives: 1. Increase the understanding of the relationship between physical and biological soil characteristics and the nutritional value of food and feed. 2. Increase the understanding of the practicality, cost, and efficacy of various farming practices. 3. Elucidate the effects of farming practices on the integrity and long-term viability of the watershed, landscape, and soil. 4. Demonstrate that research conducted over a range of conditions afforded by numerous individuals and farms provides more reliable inferences and enhances the contribution to knowledge. naos Round IV Objectives and Mission Statement Mission Statement: The North American Organic Study (naos) is a continent-wide collaboration of individuals with a shared interest in research related to organic food production. Included in our group are many university disciplines, farming approaches, and personality types. Our long run mission is to combine our talents into a unique and innovative approach to expanding human knowledge of ecologically sound food production. Specific Objectives are as follows: 1. Increase our understanding of the relationship between physical and biological soil characteristics and the nutritional value of food and feed. This includes an understanding of the practicality, cost, and efficacy of various farming practices. Review of existing literature and a continual updating of new publications will be an important component of this objective. We will enable the collection of data on several levels. Formal statistical approaches will be used to provide defensible estimates that support our findings. In addition, farmer perspective will be consistently queried and farm-level decision-making honored. 2. Elucidate the effects of farming practices on the integrity and long-run viability of the watershed, landscape, and soil. This includes the effect on the human community and encompasses the concept of soil health. Our intentions are to always incorporate the long run perspective in our knowledge-generation practices. 3. Consistently use our diversity of opinion, thought, background, and perspective to expand the scope of naos inquiry. To facilitate this, all perspectives will be valued and naos will encourage the emergence of ìnewî researchable questions and research approaches. For example, we encourage comments and ideas about the effects of universal forces such as lunar cycles on food production and different ways to conceptualize knowledge, i.e. ecological knowledge. EndÖ I know it is a lot of words and that there is much room for improvement. There are a few things in my notes that are not incorporatedóan electronic conference, do not let naos be defined by current projects, remember to look at the small corners of the farm which act as hidden refuges for traditional knowledge. So letís have a go at Round IVówhat goes, what stays? Respectfully, Kate === ------------------ Kate A. Smith, Ph.D. Vice President AUS Consultants, Inc. 155 Gaither Drive Moorestown, NJ 08057 609-234-9200 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 28 12:05:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29451 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:05:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26974; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:50:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA01850 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 06:17:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.64] (pm3shep4-163-188.intrepid.net [209.190.163.188]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA10676 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 06:21:50 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 06:22:37 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Saturn/Moon Opposition this Friday a.m. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 786 Jim Marquardt of JPI reminds me to remind you: >(Saturn/Moon oppositions occur on March 6 @ 1:24 am and April 2 @ 3:05 pm >during periods when the Moon is in a >Root constellation, which was the case for all of 1998, and to this point >in 1999. However, a second Saturn/Moon >opposition occurs on April 30 @ 5:30 am, this time when the Moon is in a >Flower period. Biodynamic practitioners in >New Zealand regard the Saturn/Moon opposition as one of the most favorable >aspects for seed germination and >application of biodynamic sprays. Aspects can be regarded as having an >effect beginning at least twelve hours prior to the >event until at least six hours after. The closer to the actual time of a >Saturn/Moon opposition the more effective is one's >action likely to be). (from Hugh Courtney's "Recommendations" avail through www.igg.com/bdnow/menu.html ) It w.b. great if we were ALL out spraying during this Thurs/Friday Period. Take Care -Allan Balliett moderator BD Now! =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 28 12:05:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29460 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27259; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:52:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11588 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:32:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.172.47.194] (207-172-47-194.s3.as2.kgp.pa.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.47.194]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id JAA17917 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:36:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: patters@pop.erols.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:39:14 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Ted Patterson Subject: electric power lines Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 787 Good list members, please indulge me while I ask a foolish question: Is growing under high-tension electric lines something to avoid at all costs? Although there is good farmland remaining in my county, the cropland in the immediate area around where I live in southeast Pennsylvania is now covered with suburban housing on the wooded hills and quote-unquote office parks in the flatlands. One nearby area currently being cropped is the strip under the electric line towers. I'm looking for more growing space. When it comes to those utility rights-of-way, don't even think about it??? Do I recall Ferdinand's cautions about those magnetic fields? Thanks. -Ted Patterson From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 28 12:06:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29492 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:06:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27384; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15182 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:12:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.76] (max15-17.stc.net [208.210.138.17]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA17813 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:16:31 -0400 To: subscribe-bdnow-hugh-lovel From: Hugh Lovel Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 788 Dears, Sorry to have been absent. My computer was in the shop. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 28 12:07:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29511 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:07:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27566; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:54:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24897 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.148] (pm3shep3-163-148.intrepid.net [209.190.163.148]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29170 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:46:20 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:47:05 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: ADMIN: Envirolink Problems Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 789 Dear BD Now! member: Just wanted you to know that you're NOT the only one who is not out in the garden right now! BD Now! and envirolink in general have been having some technical problems. Your regular programming should resume shortly. Sincerely, -Allan Balliett moderator, BD Now! =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 28 12:21:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29922 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:21:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00628; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29645 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:04:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.76] (max17-35.stc.net [208.210.139.35]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA01706 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:08:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <005701be8a6f$7ffc59c0$856fc0d1@donnas> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:06:24 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: cosmic pipe Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 790 >Hugh Courtney gave demonstration of using the preps to turn a tree into a >cosmic pipe at the Blairsville conference last September. >So what are the significant differences between doing this and using the >cosmic pipe device that you are saying has dangerous potential? What would >be the pitfalls or dangers of using a tree as a cosmic pipe? There was no >plot map involved...... only *perhaps* a visualization of property, >geography or area to be affected, but I don't really remember that . It >seemed to me that the idea was to get the preps broadcast as far as the >increased energy field of the tree would reach after burying and attaching >the preps. I did this on my property in two locations and by dowsing >measured the increase in energy field. On one tall white pine it increased >from @ 100 feet to over 1700 feet in radius, and upon remeasure 6 months >later still has the larger energy field, which I trust is benefiting ALL >within this field. >I don't want to encourage argument, just some discussion from anyone with >info on this method, bad or good. >Donatera Dear Donatera, Forgive my slow response. My computer has been in the shop. Courtney's idea of using a tree as a cosmic pipe was first developed by Harvey Lisle, and demonstrated at one of my conferences several years past. It is a perfectly valid idea. Yet Harvey had trouble with it not yielding a balanced broadcast and abandoned it. Well, we also had trouble with cosmic pipes yielding a balanced broadcast, and it took many years of research to find out why. Basically one must have a way to ensure that both soil and atmospheric energies work together in balance. We (Lorraine, Greg Willis and myself) believe the missing link fell in place with biodynamic horn clay. This stands in the middle between the horn silica and horn manure and provides a wonderful mediating balance to the farm organism. In biodynamics it is ever so important to view the property as an integrated biological organism that, by means of the BD preps, has all of its several organic functions represented. It can be small, as I've demonstrated on a virtual postage stamp garden in downtown Atlanta, or it can be large as a thousand or ten thousand acre farm. But it must have all of the BD preps established as an organic entity. Using a tree is a good insight, and a useful one. It is nature's representation of the kind of channel of life force we need. However, our cosmic pipes (as far as I can see) do the job of a tree with much more power, certainty and efficiency. You are welcome to try one, or you are welcome to try working with a tree as a cosmic pipe. I honor and respect Courtney's work in this direction, and while I don't think it is as yet as effective as one of my cosmic pipes, I believe it has potential. The circuit design of our wells and broadcast coils beat anything I've observed in trees so far. But what do I know? I've been learning on a steep gradient for quite some time with no end in sight. There's obviously a lot I don't know. Fair enough? I might add, that my research has always been with the vision in mind of reclaiming the Sahara, where there are no trees. Perhaps this gives a bias to my thinking, who knows? Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 28 13:30:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01552 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:30:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11864; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11468 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:13:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.90.32.222] (dialup-166.90.32.222.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net [166.90.32.222]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29169 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199904281718.KAA29169@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:19:52 -0700 Subject: Re: electric power lines From: "Robert Coulombe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 791 1-888-240-2636 Robert Coulombe ---------- >From: Ted Patterson >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: electric power lines >Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999, 6:39 AM > I read some time ago that after a distance of 300 yards, the affects are minimal. For people. Bob > Good list members, please indulge me while I ask a foolish question: > Is growing under high-tension electric lines something to avoid at all costs? > > Although there is good farmland remaining in my county, the cropland in the > immediate area around where I live in southeast Pennsylvania is now covered > with suburban housing on the wooded hills and quote-unquote office parks in > the flatlands. One nearby area currently being cropped is the strip under > the electric line towers. > I'm looking for more growing space. > When it comes to those utility rights-of-way, don't even think about it??? > Do I recall Ferdinand's cautions about those magnetic fields? > Thanks. -Ted Patterson > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 28 13:35:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01552 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:30:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11864; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11468 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:13:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.90.32.222] (dialup-166.90.32.222.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net [166.90.32.222]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29169 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199904281718.KAA29169@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:19:52 -0700 Subject: Re: electric power lines From: "Robert Coulombe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 792 1-888-240-2636 Robert Coulombe ---------- >From: Ted Patterson >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: electric power lines >Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999, 6:39 AM > I read some time ago that after a distance of 300 yards, the affects are minimal. For people. Bob > Good list members, please indulge me while I ask a foolish question: > Is growing under high-tension electric lines something to avoid at all costs? > > Although there is good farmland remaining in my county, the cropland in the > immediate area around where I live in southeast Pennsylvania is now covered > with suburban housing on the wooded hills and quote-unquote office parks in > the flatlands. One nearby area currently being cropped is the strip under > the electric line towers. > I'm looking for more growing space. > When it comes to those utility rights-of-way, don't even think about it??? > Do I recall Ferdinand's cautions about those magnetic fields? > Thanks. -Ted Patterson > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 28 15:08:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04238 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 15:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24334; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:54:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from russian-caravan.cloud9.net (russian-caravan.cloud9.net [168.100.1.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23974 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:50:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cloud9.net (mtoro.dialup.cloud9.net [168.100.205.209]) by russian-caravan.cloud9.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 445E476393 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37275803.EBB85C2C@cloud9.net> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:48:35 -0400 From: Mark Santoro Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: electric power lines References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 793 Hello Ted, I, for one, would never, ever, live under or close to high tension wires. The electromagnetic effects from the current traveling at 60 cycles per second back and forth within the wire creates a field of radiation that can be measured with commercially available instruments. This radiation is carcinogenic by its very nature, as it deforms living cells by changing the qualitative structure of the DNA responsible for cell division. The only question one can ask about such fields is: how much damage--not whether or not damage is occurring-- is being caused by the field? Of course over a distance of 150' or perhaps more, the strength of the electro- magnetic radiation dies down precipitously. Hope this helps. Ted Patterson wrote: > Good list members, please indulge me while I ask a foolish question: > Is growing under high-tension electric lines something to avoid at all costs? > > Although there is good farmland remaining in my county, the cropland in the > immediate area around where I live in southeast Pennsylvania is now covered > with suburban housing on the wooded hills and quote-unquote office parks in > the flatlands. One nearby area currently being cropped is the strip under > the electric line towers. > I'm looking for more growing space. > When it comes to those utility rights-of-way, don't even think about it??? > Do I recall Ferdinand's cautions about those magnetic fields? > Thanks. -Ted Patterson From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 28 15:24:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04780 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 15:24:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25918; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 15:10:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25568 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 15:07:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp192.cy-net.net [208.21.195.1]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12769 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:11:56 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE917F.70B2E940@FLYLO>; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:00:15 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE917F.70B2E940@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: electric power lines Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:59:56 -0500 Encoding: 30 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 794 Dear Ted; I guess we'll see soon. We just put in a haygrazer meadow. Renovating an old pasture (small trees, lots of berry vine and scrub that had to be removed first). Tried to keep the drive areas underneath the hi-lines to avoid planting close to them, but a portion of the field was planted close, as unavoidable in order to keep the acres together. (Only put in 12 acres in a 32 ac field, but I didn't want them scattered around the pasture.) Also, because of pending rains we were forced to plant (away from the hi-lines) in Leo and Virgo so who knows what will grow, or how it would have been better under any other moon phase. Reflecting on Mark's reply, 3 of the acres should be beset with growth problems. We also jumped up 4 wild hogs, a litter of babies and 3 'boogery' old cows with calves so this was quite a disturbing event to the wildlife in general. The first day I was mowing and working alone, an incredible variety of hawks came and hunted the field with me. After that, I had help and the hawks never appeared again. martha -----Original Message----- From: Ted Patterson [SMTP:patters@erols.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 8:39 AM To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: electric power lines Good list members, please indulge me while I ask a foolish question: Is growing under high-tension electric lines something to avoid at all costs? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 28 16:51:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA07247 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:51:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06252; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:38:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05968 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:35:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00C02F76@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:38:55 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 28 Apr 99 16:39:24 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 28 Apr 99 16:39:21 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:39:14 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: electric power lines Priority: normal In-reply-to: <37275803.EBB85C2C@cloud9.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <3EEEF8F43DC@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 795 Uh, if we live within the power grids of modern civilization, aren't we always pretty near to high tension wires? Or are there different kinds of power lines that are more common and less harmful? And does 150' mean from the wire to the ground or does it mean out horizontally on the ground from the point directly beneath the wires? Anita > Hello Ted, > I, for one, would never, ever, live under or close to high tension wires. The > electromagnetic effects from the current traveling at 60 cycles per second back > and forth within the wire creates a field of radiation that can be measured with > commercially available instruments. This radiation is carcinogenic by its very > nature, as it deforms living cells by changing the qualitative structure of the > DNA responsible for cell division. The only question one can ask about such > fields is: how much damage--not whether or not damage is occurring-- is being > caused by the field? Of course over a distance of 150' or perhaps more, the > strength of the electro- magnetic radiation dies down precipitously. Hope this > helps. > > > Ted Patterson wrote: > > > Good list members, please indulge me while I ask a foolish question: > > Is growing under high-tension electric lines something to avoid at all costs? > > > > Although there is good farmland remaining in my county, the cropland in the > > immediate area around where I live in southeast Pennsylvania is now covered > > with suburban housing on the wooded hills and quote-unquote office parks in > > the flatlands. One nearby area currently being cropped is the strip under > > the electric line towers. > > I'm looking for more growing space. > > When it comes to those utility rights-of-way, don't even think about it??? > > Do I recall Ferdinand's cautions about those magnetic fields? > > Thanks. -Ted Patterson > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 28 21:08:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA12166 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:08:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA28633; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:53:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28276 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:48:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.76] (max2-46.stc.net [208.210.131.174]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA06181 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:52:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:45:15 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: electric power lines Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 796 >Good list members, please indulge me while I ask a foolish question: >Is growing under high-tension electric lines something to avoid at all costs? > >Although there is good farmland remaining in my county, the cropland in the >immediate area around where I live in southeast Pennsylvania is now covered >with suburban housing on the wooded hills and quote-unquote office parks in >the flatlands. One nearby area currently being cropped is the strip under >the electric line towers. >I'm looking for more growing space. >When it comes to those utility rights-of-way, don't even think about it??? >Do I recall Ferdinand's cautions about those magnetic fields? >Thanks. -Ted Patterson Dear Ted, What does it mean to "avoid at all costs?" Basically high tension wires should be avoided if possible. But what are all costs? If I had no other place I'd certainly grow under the lines. But that's not normally very desirable. Basically you want to create a living organism, and doing it under high tension lines is stressful, but nowhere near impossible. It just means you've got to be attentive and do a much better than ordinairy job. Try this. ] It has been found that spraying the full sequence of BD preps back-to-back is the most effective way of establishing a fully alive BD organism. So start one evening with the 500. Spray the 501 the next dawning, BD winter horn clay the next evening, BD summer horn clay the next dawning, BD barrel compost the next evening, BD 508 (horsetail decoction) the next dawning, and even homeopathic milk and honey the next evening and dawn. This gets it all out there as a package and it works. The only other better measures I could advise would be getting a cosmic pipe, and quite frankly I don't have any experience with how it might work under high tension lines. But you're free to experiment. One thing about it is the cosmic pipe does the full package of what I'm telling you above each and every day and night, continuously. Which means it really establishes the BD agricultural organism. But under the high tension lines is an unknown. I never guarantee results, because there are so many variables. But under high power lines I have to wish I could train your powers of perception to see whether favorable or unfavorable phenomena were occurring. I hardly know what to advise. I would advise this. If what you have to work with is under the lines--work with it. We are dealing with abnormal stresses these days. We have to learn how to do this. Most folks know that under these high tension lines there are abnormal stresses. The question is not how to blow up all these lines. They are here for some time to come. The question is how to endure under them. So we must find out how. Which makes your project very, very valuable indeed. This is simple practical advice. Follow it if you will, and keep in touch if you want to. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 28 21:48:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA12894 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:48:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA01750; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA01316 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp41.blueriver.mwt.net [156.46.253.168]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA03607 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:30:37 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <000e01be91e0$36444c20$a8fd2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: <3EEEF8F43DC@agecon.uga.edu> Subject: Re: electric power lines Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:32:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 797 The website below seems to be a wonderful resource dealing with EMF's http://www.cruzio.com/~rbedard/waveguide/ (and believe me, the deeper you dig at this site, the weirder it gets...don't miss the govt. mind control experiments, jeesh!) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Apr 28 22:11:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA13164 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA03305; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:56:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03012 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bio (kmidc67-92.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.92]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA21975 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:56:09 +1000 Message-ID: <006a01be91e3$55b23a60$5c431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:46:55 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 798 Dear Hugh, We missed you and everyone else, as Alan said, we did think that you were all being overwhelmed by spring, Best wishes from the Down Unders who are shutting down for winter. Oh, by the way, I harvested my potatoes last Friday, and they were looking great. Got 1,560 kg from about half an acre or 74 x 20kg bags I guess that would be 50lb bags in non-metric figures. Good size and nice and clean, now I am busy dropping them off to all my customers! Cheryl Kemp. -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Lovel To: subscribe-bdnow-hugh-lovel Date: Thursday, 29 April 1999 1:58 am >Dears, > >Sorry to have been absent. My computer was in the shop. > >Best, > >Hugh Lovel >8475 Dockery Road >Blairsville, Georgia > >"Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping >himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he >wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has >gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 29 05:41:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA18847 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 05:41:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA24054; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 05:27:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goofy.arcom.com.au (root@main-gw.arcom.senet.com.au [203.56.239.50]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA23972 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 05:24:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ruicaish (c3-p56.arcom.com.au [203.152.250.185]) by goofy.arcom.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA21668 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:58:29 +0930 Message-ID: <001a01be92ad$1d78b500$b9fa98cb@ruicaish> From: "Vincent Brown" To: Subject: Plan(e)ts Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:44:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008E_01BE922D.49080AC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 799 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008E_01BE922D.49080AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,=20 Unfortunately I had no replies to my question about the triggering of = the seed's growth by the warmth generated from the seed's own = decompostion. Hopefully I shall have better luck with this one: We know of course that the Sun and the Moon play an important role in = the life of the all things on the planet, and it is accepted in = Astrology that the planets influence our lives. But what of the = vegitable Kingdom? Wouldn't it also be true that the planets have an = influence on the Plant as well as the Human? The reason I ask is because I believe that I have found evidence in some = ancient cultures who had mastered agriculture to suggest that the cycles = of Venus were used. Vincent. ------=_NextPart_000_008E_01BE922D.49080AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
Unfortunately I had no replies to my question about = the=20 triggering of the seed's growth by the warmth generated from the = seed's own=20 decompostion.  Hopefully I shall have better luck with this=20 one:
 
We know of course that the Sun and the Moon play an = important=20 role in the life of the all things on the planet, and it is accepted in=20 Astrology that the planets influence our lives.  But what of the = vegitable=20 Kingdom?  Wouldn't it also be true that the planets have an = influence=20 on the Plant as well as the Human?
 
The reason I ask is because I believe that I have = found=20 evidence in some ancient cultures who had mastered agriculture to = suggest=20 that the cycles of Venus were used.
 
Vincent.
 
------=_NextPart_000_008E_01BE922D.49080AC0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 29 09:38:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22016 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:38:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05375; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05184 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:22:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.102.66.98] (pm3bky1-66-98.intrepid.net [206.102.66.98]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA29113; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:26:51 -0400 Message-Id: <199904291326.JAA29113@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: Re: Saturn/Moon Opposition this Friday a.m. Date: Thu, 10 Aug 06 18:02:03 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 800 April 30 at 10:55am EDT is also the Taurus Full Moon which is celebrated in the Eastern world as Buddha's Birthday -- the Wesak Festival. It is considered the most potent spiritual moment of the year when the Buddha allegedly returns and bestows his blessing on humanity. Part of the ceremony of Wesak is the transmission of the blessing into water carried by all those who participate. This water is then potentized. Seems like a good time to spray -- double. Jeanne From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 29 09:44:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22201 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05877; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05727 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:29:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from dirkers@juno.com) by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D9DJCZES; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:32:32 EDT To: bdnow@envirolink.org Cc: vincent@arcom.com.au Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:26:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Seed growth Message-ID: <19990429.082910.3622.0.Dirkers@juno.com> References: <000e01be8f57$6f100480$c7fa98cb@ruicaish> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-10,14-19,23-27 From: Christopher P Dirkers Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 801 On Sun, 25 Apr 1999 13:04:41 -0700 "Vincent Brown" writes: > >Would it be a fair assumption to say that the newly planted seed is >heated by it's own decomposition in the ground, triggering it to >'start-up' and sprout after lying dormant for so long? > >Vincent. > > An excellent book dedicated to seed germination is by Norman Deno entitled "Seed Germination Theory and Practice". I think it is printed by Pennsylvania State University. Contact Norman C. Deno, Emeritus of Chemistry, 139 Lenor Drive, State College, Pennsylvania, USA 16801 Best Regards... Christopher Dirkers -------------------------------------- Located in the beautiful Ozarks, Dirkers' Pleasant Valley School and Farm is dedicated to providing nourishment for mind and body. We raise pure, nutritionally enhanced produce, herbs, and pastured poultry. Classes include Family Preparedness, Health & Agronomy, and Scriptural Law. Dirkers' Pleasant Valley School & Farm HC62, Box 370-A Calico Rock, Arkansas. U.S.A. (72519) 870-297-8040 or dirkers@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 29 11:12:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24032 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13529; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13457 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00C0C6F9@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:51:00 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 29 Apr 99 10:51:30 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 29 Apr 99 10:51:20 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:51:19 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Saturn/Moon Opposition this Friday a.m. Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199904291326.JAA29113@loki.intrepid.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <401235E4885@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 802 I think that "Eastern Standard Time" would be "EST", so what is "EDT"? What part of the world are we talking about? > April 30 at 10:55am EDT is also the Taurus Full Moon which is celebrated > in the Eastern world as Buddha's Birthday -- the Wesak Festival. It is > considered the most potent spiritual moment of the year when the Buddha > allegedly returns and bestows his blessing on humanity. > > Part of the ceremony of Wesak is the transmission of the blessing into > water carried by all those who participate. This water is then > potentized. > > Seems like a good time to spray -- double. > > Jeanne > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 29 11:49:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24770 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:49:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17624; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17272 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:33:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.19] (pm3shep1-163-19.intrepid.net [209.190.163.19]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19042 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:37:21 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <401235E4885@agecon.uga.edu> References: <199904291326.JAA29113@loki.intrepid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:38:04 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: Saturn/Moon Opposition this Friday a.m. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 803 EDT = Eastern Daylight Time ie daylight savings time -Allan >I think that "Eastern Standard Time" would be "EST", so what is >"EDT"? What part of the world are we talking about? > >> April 30 at 10:55am EDT is also the Taurus Full Moon which is celebrated >> in the Eastern world as Buddha's Birthday -- the Wesak Festival. It is >> considered the most potent spiritual moment of the year when the Buddha >> allegedly returns and bestows his blessing on humanity. >> >> Part of the ceremony of Wesak is the transmission of the blessing into >> water carried by all those who participate. This water is then >> potentized. >> >> Seems like a good time to spray -- double. >> >> Jeanne >> >> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 29 13:50:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA28227 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:50:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01031; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:36:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00850 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.76] (max15-18.stc.net [208.210.138.18]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA04250 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:38:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <401235E4885@agecon.uga.edu> References: <199904291326.JAA29113@loki.intrepid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:37:59 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Saturn/Moon Opposition this Friday a.m. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 804 >I think that "Eastern Standard Time" would be "EST", so what is >"EDT"? What part of the world are we talking about? > >> April 30 at 10:55am EDT is also the Taurus Full Moon which is celebrated >> in the Eastern world as Buddha's Birthday -- the Wesak Festival. It is >> considered the most potent spiritual moment of the year when the Buddha >> allegedly returns and bestows his blessing on humanity. >> >> Part of the ceremony of Wesak is the transmission of the blessing into >> water carried by all those who participate. This water is then >> potentized. >> >> Seems like a good time to spray -- double. >> >> Jeanne >> >> Dear Anita, Eastern Daylight Time. This is a nationally mandated tinkering with the clock. It amounts to cutting a foot off your blanket and sewing it on the other end to make your blanket longer. It's a good way to lose track of noon. Hugh Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 29 14:11:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00039 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:11:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03527; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:57:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yancey.main.nc.us (yancey.main.nc.us [209.192.111.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03402 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:56:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from donnas (ppp1.yancey.main.nc.us [209.192.111.132]) by yancey.main.nc.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25744 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:02:09 -0400 Message-ID: <002601be9269$07215940$846fc0d1@donnas> From: "donnas" To: Subject: Re: ...horn clay prep Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:52:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 805 Is horn clay available for purchase from anyone? I am not set up...... so far anyway....... to make my own preps, and have not noticed horn clay listed at JPI. Saw Jeff Poppen at a do of organic farmers/gardeners....here in western North Carolina last Sunday. Wished there was more time to just talk to him because he was the only other BD person there...... but it was nice to meet him in person after reading his column. regards, Donatera From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 29 14:57:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01385 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:57:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08949; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:43:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cougar.ssi.stratus.com (cougar.ssi.stratus.com [198.97.42.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08795 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:42:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by cougar.ssi.stratus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA11124 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:44:11 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:44:10 -0400 (EDT) Organization: Society for Real Time Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Charlie Hodgson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Saturn/Moon Opposition this Friday a.m. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 806 On 29-Apr-99 Hugh Lovel wrote: >>I think that "Eastern Standard Time" would be "EST", so what is >>"EDT"? What part of the world are we talking about? > Eastern Daylight Time. This is a nationally mandated tinkering with the > clock. The Standard Time Act was passed as a law in 1918 putting the entire U.S. on 'Standard' time and requiring daylight savings time. Daylight savings time was repealed in 1919. The feds do set when it begins and ends, but compliance is a local issue. Hawaii, Arizona and parts of Indiana don't observe it. > It's a good way to lose track of noon. Noon hasn't been noon since we adopted standard time. Most people believe a day is 24 hours long. A day actually varies between 23 3/4 and 24 1/4 hours, depending on the time of year (see Equation of Time). A MEAN day is just about 24 hours long, but every longitude has it's own mean time (Local Mean Time). So the railroads came up with the concept of Standard time which the feds made law a couple decades later. To further complicate matters the boundaries of zones frequently follow state boundaries. The upshot is, the sun can be anywhere from an hour fast to two hours slow, depending where and when you are. F.Y.I. The Sun keeps (and Sundials read) LAT (local apparent time) and the heavens keep LAST (local apparent sidereal time) Charlie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 29 16:01:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA03787 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:01:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15381; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 15:47:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15277 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 15:46:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from laquerencia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D9D7ZZGL; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 15:51:01 EDT To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:52:18 -0500 Subject: Re: cosmic pipe Message-ID: <19990429.145219.6342.2.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5-8,13-17 From: Deborah M Byron Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 807 Hugh Lovel wrote: (snip): >I might add, that my research has always been with the vision in mind >of reclaiming the Sahara, where there are no trees. Perhaps this gives a >bias to my thinking, who knows? Hugh, I'd be interested in hearing more about your thoughts on this idea of desert reclamation. Why the Sahara in particular? Might it not be true that deserts exist in some sort of polarity with rainforest or polar ice sheets, maintaining a natural global balance? Or is the Sahara evidence of some ancient catatrophic mismanagement? Regards, Deborah ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 29 17:18:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA05864 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:18:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22738; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:04:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yancey.main.nc.us (yancey.main.nc.us [209.192.111.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA22415 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:01:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from donnas (ppp13.yancey.main.nc.us [209.192.111.144]) by yancey.main.nc.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00237 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:07:08 -0400 Message-ID: <001f01be9282$deb8a840$906fc0d1@donnas> From: "donnas" To: Subject: Re: Saturn/Moon Opposition this Friday a.m. Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:57:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 808 Spraying would be a good thing to do on Friday the 30th....... but it has been raining in western NC for 3 days now and must be raining in Tenn. and North GA too........ My instructions on 500 say not to spray before a rain, so I suppose spraying in a rain would be of no use........ If it is not raining for a while on Friday and I spray....... but it continues to rain that night or the next day......... then what??? When considering not to spray before a rain...... how long before ??? and what does the rain do to the effects??? Rain is badly needed here......but I hate to miss the opportunity of this beneficial occurrence. Donatera From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 29 18:29:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA07272 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:29:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00316; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:14:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgate.eur.nl (mailgate.eur.nl [130.115.1.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00167 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:13:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bets.fbk.eur.nl (bets.fbk.eur.nl [130.115.150.2]) by mailgate.eur.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17173 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:18:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from student.fbk.eur.nl (rem-255-78.remote.eur.nl [130.115.255.78]) by bets.fbk.eur.nl (8.8.8/8.6.6) with ESMTP id AAA06698 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:18:11 +0200 Message-ID: <3728EA86.DCAE16E3@student.fbk.eur.nl> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:25:58 +0100 From: Jon de Ruijter <174982@student.fbk.eur.nl> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Rotterdam School of Management X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: hello Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 809 Hi, First of all, happy eastre to all of you. My name is Jon de Ruijter, I'm a representative of De Groene Weg. De Groene Weg is a dutch organisation of biologic butschershops in Holland. Since 20 years we are specialized in production of biologic meat products. We have 22 shops and we deliver aproximately 500 health food stores and supermakets in Holland, Belgium and Germany. Tow years ago I was an apprentice on the Temple-Wilton community farm for 6 months. I also attended the weekend in Kimberton about apprenticeships (sounding the call) We are growing fast the last three years and we expand our activities more and more all over Europe. We deliver meat factories in Danmark, Italy, England and France. For Europe, we are the most professional organisation for, (exclusively) biologic meat. Right now I'm traslating our control rules in English. I would like to ask you if you could send me a copy from the quality rules for the USA. I'm sure that there are a lot of similarities in the US rules and those fron Europe. We're also interested in the developments on biodynamics in America. Is it possible that we can get a link on your homepage to ours? I think we can share a lot of information and experience that we have with others who work with biologic meat. Our internet address is: www.degroeneweg.nl My personal addres is: Jon de Ruijter Pr. Julianalaan 2b 3062 DH Rotterdam The Netherlands Tel: 011-31-10-2427717 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 29 18:35:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA07272 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:29:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00316; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:14:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgate.eur.nl (mailgate.eur.nl [130.115.1.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00167 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:13:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bets.fbk.eur.nl (bets.fbk.eur.nl [130.115.150.2]) by mailgate.eur.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17173 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:18:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from student.fbk.eur.nl (rem-255-78.remote.eur.nl [130.115.255.78]) by bets.fbk.eur.nl (8.8.8/8.6.6) with ESMTP id AAA06698 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:18:11 +0200 Message-ID: <3728EA86.DCAE16E3@student.fbk.eur.nl> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:25:58 +0100 From: Jon de Ruijter <174982@student.fbk.eur.nl> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Rotterdam School of Management X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: hello Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 810 Hi, First of all, happy eastre to all of you. My name is Jon de Ruijter, I'm a representative of De Groene Weg. De Groene Weg is a dutch organisation of biologic butschershops in Holland. Since 20 years we are specialized in production of biologic meat products. We have 22 shops and we deliver aproximately 500 health food stores and supermakets in Holland, Belgium and Germany. Tow years ago I was an apprentice on the Temple-Wilton community farm for 6 months. I also attended the weekend in Kimberton about apprenticeships (sounding the call) We are growing fast the last three years and we expand our activities more and more all over Europe. We deliver meat factories in Danmark, Italy, England and France. For Europe, we are the most professional organisation for, (exclusively) biologic meat. Right now I'm traslating our control rules in English. I would like to ask you if you could send me a copy from the quality rules for the USA. I'm sure that there are a lot of similarities in the US rules and those fron Europe. We're also interested in the developments on biodynamics in America. Is it possible that we can get a link on your homepage to ours? I think we can share a lot of information and experience that we have with others who work with biologic meat. Our internet address is: www.degroeneweg.nl My personal addres is: Jon de Ruijter Pr. Julianalaan 2b 3062 DH Rotterdam The Netherlands Tel: 011-31-10-2427717 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 29 18:56:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA07958 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:56:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02752; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand.global.net.uk (sand.global.net.uk [194.126.82.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02521 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:40:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p0cs12a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.220.13] helo=compaq) by sand.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 10czYF-0000XR-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:45:03 +0100 Message-ID: <3728DD59.4685@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:29:45 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Off: Fw: [GE]: Bt and its toxin References: <000801be8ee0$17f1e5a0$93f631ca@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 811 g&y bodle wrote: > > Dear Joel, > I am very interested in the progress of this. please keep us informed. The > cynic in me suggests that they are unlikely to prevent the ongoing madness, > but the significance of what may be potentally achieved none the less > deserves support and should be followed carefully. > > Cheers, > And thanks for the info, > > Garety Bodle > Whangarei NZ > -----Original Message----- > From: jrei@uswest.net > To: bdnow@envirolink.org ; Rex Harrill > > Date: Sunday, 25 April 1999 3:22 PM > Subject: Re: Off: Fw: [GE]: Bt and its toxin > > >Right now, a case is pending before the US District Court of appeals that > may > >strike a serious blow to the ability for companies to patent plants. The > court case > >is based on the argument that the US congress never meant for seed > propagated > >plants to be patented. You can read a "friend of the court" brief at > >www.aipla.org/pioneer-hibred.html supporting the case for plant patenting. > Many > >financial papers are are calling this case absolutely critical to the > continued > >growth of varieties resulting from gene transfer. I reported this about 2 > weeks ago > >but have yet to see any other comment! > >Joel > > > >Rex Harrill wrote: > > > >> Cheryl Kemp submitted another bit in the ongoing horror about genetic > >> engineering: > >> > >> > >Bt-crops are probably the most important transgenic crops: Bt-maize, > >> > >Bt-cotton, Bt-potatoes or Bt-rice grow on fields all over the world. > 14 > >> > out > >> > >of 43 commercialised transgenic crops in the US are Bt-crops. > Furthermore, > >> > >in the US there is a giant patent-battle going on over who will get > >> > >monopoly controll over these crops: Up to June 1998, 482 patents had > been > >> > >submitted or awarded mentioning Bt, some 95 of these patents involve > >> > >transgenic plants. The top ten patentees hold 62% of all patents, with > Dow > >> > >holding 98 and Novartis 36 patents. (Robin Jenkins, in 'Seedling, > Sept.'98) > >> > > >> > >> In my mind, this is the real trouble with GE: patents. Remove life-forms > from > >> the patent system and the monstrous genie just might return to the bottle > for > >> another thousand years. I suggest unmitigated *war* against GE in all > its > >> forms. There has never been a bigger threat to life as we know it. I > hope > >> those Europeans who destroy GE fields, and go to jail for it, know what > heros I > >> consider them. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Rex Harrill > > > > Dear Garety Bodle The other tonic herb that can be used to curdle milk is the safflower (Carthamus tinctorius,The seeds are whats used I understand, though I don't know the recipe I am afraid.It is an annual grows to about 3 feet,In Spain it colours soups Regards Rex Tyler From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 29 19:06:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08088 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:06:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03527; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:52:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fep9.mail.ozemail.net (fep9.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.103]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03252 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:49:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (slmlb33p44.ozemail.com.au [203.108.109.108]) by fep9.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA24105 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:53:35 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <001901be9292$90318ec0$6c6d6ccb@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: References: Subject: Re: electric power lines Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:49:37 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 812 Ted, a couple of years ago my husband (a race horse trainer) was hospitalized and arranged for one of his horses to be collected and trained by another trainer. Several weeks later when we went to watch her race - to our dismay she was so highly strung and nervous we couldn't believe it. Visiting the stables soon after we discovered that the stables and paddock were right under high voltage power lines. Returning her to our own healthy paddock she settled down to her usual calm self though it did take a few weeks. Doubtlessly power lines would effect anything living / growing thing in the near vicinity. Regards Gwenda ----- Original Message ----- From: Ted Patterson To: Sent: Wednesday, 28 April 1999 11:39 Subject: electric power lines > Good list members, please indulge me while I ask a foolish question: > Is growing under high-tension electric lines something to avoid at all costs? > > Although there is good farmland remaining in my county, the cropland in the > immediate area around where I live in southeast Pennsylvania is now covered > with suburban housing on the wooded hills and quote-unquote office parks in > the flatlands. One nearby area currently being cropped is the strip under > the electric line towers. > I'm looking for more growing space. > When it comes to those utility rights-of-way, don't even think about it??? > Do I recall Ferdinand's cautions about those magnetic fields? > Thanks. -Ted Patterson > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Apr 29 20:56:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA10838 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12167; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12033 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:39:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.76] (max7-17.stc.net [208.210.134.17]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA29220 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:43:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002601be9269$07215940$846fc0d1@donnas> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:43:17 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: ...horn clay prep Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 813 >Is horn clay available for purchase from anyone? I am not set up...... so >far anyway....... to make my own preps, and have not noticed horn clay >listed at JPI. > Saw Jeff Poppen at a do of organic farmers/gardeners....here in western >North Carolina last Sunday. Wished there was more time to just talk to him >because he was the only other BD person there...... but it was nice to meet >him in person after reading his column. > regards, > Donatera Dear Donatera, I have made a substantial amount of spring to spring horn clay. It is all I can offer, and it is the primary horn clay, but it helps to also have fall to fall horn clay, which is the secondary horn clay. That I don't have yet. Give me another year. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 30 04:05:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA16976 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:05:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA04562; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 03:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA04252 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 03:48:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-122.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-122.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.122]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA97588 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 07:53:19 GMT Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 07:53:19 GMT Message-Id: <199904300753.HAA97588@out2.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: Sahara desert Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 814 As I understand it, the Sahara was a lush forest with lions, elephants etc. Wheat was grown in Egypt. (Remember the 'Hanging Gardens of Babylon' ?). The spread of the desert to the south seems to be caused by the southward movement of people it is displacing - these people have a culture that causes them to cut down trees for firewood until there are none left ( where the locals had preserved the trees by their culture which revered them). One enough trees are cut, the microclimate changes. ( Enough trees transpire moisture into the air, which falls as rain, which the trees absorb ... ). So what can be done to reverse the process? - ie to get the trees growing again they need water, where do we get it from. I know of some experiments where they covered the soil with a black oil/ or something: this was supposed to induce thermals to create rain. Also, by placing a rock on one side of a plant, it would cool during the night and dew would run down into the soil. I would be very interested in more information. Reafforestation is vital. Let's get on with it !!! Lynton At 02:52 PM 4/29/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hugh Lovel wrote: >(snip): > >>I might add, that my research has always been with the vision in mind >>of reclaiming the Sahara, where there are no trees. Perhaps this gives a > >>bias to my thinking, who knows? > > > Hugh, I'd be interested in hearing more about your thoughts on >this idea of desert reclamation. Why the Sahara in particular? Might it >not be true that deserts exist in some sort of polarity with rainforest >or polar ice sheets, maintaining a natural global balance? Or is the >Sahara evidence of some ancient catatrophic mismanagement? > >Regards, >Deborah > > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 30 13:55:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25335 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13593; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:40:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13260 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:37:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp5.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.105]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA11325 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:39:11 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <001501be9330$ad5fc2c0$694b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: <001a01be92ad$1d78b500$b9fa98cb@ruicaish> Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:41:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 815 Dear Vincent, I don't know the answer to your seed warmth triggering question, but I think it is a good one, and hope that you know that the lack of response is probably only due to the lack of time on the part of the listers right now...such a busy time of year! I did, however want to go further with your great new question, so you don't feel ignored, for one thing, and because it is so interesting & should not fall by the wayside. Maybe you could share more on the agri-cultures you refer to...I do know the Mesoamericans used Venus extensively & their calendar reflects her cycles (are these the cultures you refer to?) I also have an interesting book "The Mysteries of Venus" by Mark Lerner, who quotes Alice A. Bailey's "Esoteric Psychology I" and says "In the vegetable kingdom the influence of Venus is predominant, amazing as this may seem to some occult students" And later, starting with the suggestion made by Gurdjieff, that "Nature" was the Earth's "organic receiving station", he goes further by saying this means that the Earth cannot assimilate Solar Energy directly, it is too pure, powerful & "unrefined" for the non-sacred, struggling earth in the solar systemic school of life. So Nature was, shall we say, invented by the spiritual powers that be, in order to transform Solar Energy into something more palatable for the Earth, humanity & the various planetary kingdoms. Further to this assertion that Venus rules the plant kingdom, he says that Nature is Venus' special gift to Planet Earth. Gurdjieff's suggestion of nature as Earth's "organic receiving station", makes it seem that the plant kingdom functions as the earth's "nervous system" (and human motor neurons clearly resemble trees. The word "dendrites" from the Greek word for "tree") Alice Bailey's "Esoteric Healing" says Venus rules the nervous system in human beings... So clearly, Venus is an important player in the plant world. Coming to it from a different angle ("Planetary Influences upon Plants") E. Kranich makes a stunning observations in comparing the physical forms of certain Venusian plants to the actual planetary path of Venus in the heavens. (The interaction between Venus& the Sun forms a pentagram against the backdrop of the zodiac (talk about magic!!:-) over the course of the 8-yr. Venus cycle) The ag course discusses Venus' influence as well, although I had trouble finding (or understanding) content to be very Venus-specific, probably is there, but I'm not getting it...so hopefully there is a smattering of things to think about or follow up on, hopefully if they can spare a few moments...someone more versed than I will jump in with some insights. Take care, Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: Vincent Brown To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sent: Thursday, April 29, 1999 12:44 PM Subject: Plan(e)ts Hi, Unfortunately I had no replies to my question about the triggering of the seed's growth by the warmth generated from the seed's own decompostion. Hopefully I shall have better luck with this one: We know of course that the Sun and the Moon play an important role in the life of the all things on the planet, and it is accepted in Astrology that the planets influence our lives. But what of the vegetable Kingdom? Wouldn't it also be true that the planets have an influence on the Plant as well as the Human? The reason I ask is because I believe that I have found evidence in some ancient cultures who had mastered agriculture to suggest that the cycles of Venus were used. Vincent. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 30 14:25:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA26206 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:25:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04021; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:07:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02913 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904301600.MAA02913@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 26002 invoked from network); 30 Apr 1999 16:04:42 -0000 Received: from i48-06-15.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO DAVE) (216.26.3.79) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 1999 16:04:42 -0000 X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Re: ...horn clay prep Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 816 >I have made a substantial amount of spring to spring horn clay. It is all I >can offer, and it is the primary horn clay, but it helps to also have fall >to fall horn clay, which is the secondary horn clay. That I don't have yet. >Give me another year. > >Best, > >Hugh Lovel Which is summer and which is winter? Or is summer the spring to fall clay? ======================== David Robison Stellar Processes From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 30 14:27:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA26233 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28393; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:25:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28164 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:22:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.13.143]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:27:42 +0100 Message-ID: <3729CA3D.4BAB@cwcom.net> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:20:29 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Saturn/Moon Opposition this Friday a.m. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 817 Allen - I imagine you with a big map, pushing in pins to record who was out spraying the preps during this period: so you can push one into a small patch of SW Wales for me. I sowed my first carrots, parsnips, turnips and beetroot during the last root period a couple of days ago, so I was particularly pleased to learn that spraying during this opposition is helpful for germination. One request: you quoted the time of 5:30am for the event, although here (at approx. 4deg W, 51deg 40min N) I calculated it to be around 10:35am BST (=GMT+1hr) - much more convenient! I'm very grateful to you for calling attention to this event, but - for the benefit of your international sunscribers - could you indicate the time-zone, next time? Thanks - Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 30 15:10:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA27348 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:09:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26331; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26105 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:57:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.121] (pm3shep3-163-130.intrepid.net [209.190.163.130]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29261 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:01:59 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:02:46 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Spring treatments for BD Grape Vines Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 818 Howdy! One thing I inherited here is a small row of grape vines. I don't even know the variety. The leaves are starting to come out on them now. (The first indication that they survived the winter.) It's clear that I haven't been paying attention: can someone tell me that appropriate cultural steps to take with these vines here in the spring. (Incidentally, I'm farming in WV, outside of Washington, DC.) Thanks -Allan Balliett =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 30 16:51:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA00878 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:51:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA26830; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:35:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA26528 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:32:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00C210A8@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:35:51 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 30 Apr 99 16:36:22 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 30 Apr 99 16:35:54 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:35:48 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Sahara desert Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199904300753.HAA97588@out2.ibm.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <41EE29725FE@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 819 Just to add to this discussion.... There are deserts which are the results of global weather patterns that took place over thousands of years (and I'm fairly certain that a big chunk of the Saraha is included in this) and then there are more recent deserts which are the result of "desertification" which has come about through mostly deforestation but also other things (and the rest of the Sahara is in this catagory). This is really where humans have to take responsibility for things. I don't know if any of you out there happened to catch the documentary earlier this week on PBS about the Dust Bowl, but it was AMAZING and right on target with this topic. One can read about the Dust Bowl in school (and read the Grapes of Wrath), but it doesn't make an impact like this documentary did, which was about the next best thing to being there. Because of ruinous cultivation techniques we came darn close to having our own Sarah in this country where the "bread basket" used to be. I hadn't realized just how intense it was until I saw pictures of dust storms that turned the sky black (and by the color of the storm, people could tell where the storm was coming from since the soils in different areas are different colors) and pictures of corn fields covered in sand. I have, however, seen the consequences of "desertification" with my own eyes having lived in the Dominican Republic on the Haitian boarder. In this place it was clear how the land is transformed from humid forest to hot, dry desert. Where I lived, most the land was in the middle of that transition, though isolated mountain pockets gave hints as to what it once was and what it should be. It still rained almost every week of the year, though the temperatures were quite a bit higher than even the "norm" that was in the memory of the adolescents and the rain was less frequent. Just a two hour walk over the boarder, however, brought one to the Haitian dust bowl where the predominent color is the golden brown of the dirt (not soil, dirt). There, one can see the rain falling only 5 or so miles away and yet it almost NEVER reaches this Haitian village. The contrast is astounding. Deforestation, slash and burn agriculture, monoculture crops, plowing against the contours, lack of contour soil erosion barriers, grazing of herds on denuded hillsides, poverty, war, and ignorance are making deserts all over the place, not the least of which are in the souls of the people living in these environments. So, maybe there was originally a natural balance of desert and rain forest as was suggested in the original post, but every day that balance is tipped in favor of deserts to the exclusion of all else. (Even parking lots and the huge expanses of asphalt and concrete count for a type of desertification.) Anita > As I understand it, the Sahara was a lush forest with lions, elephants etc. > Wheat was grown in Egypt. (Remember the 'Hanging Gardens of Babylon' ?). > > The spread of the desert to the south seems to be caused by the southward > movement of people it is displacing - these people have a culture that > causes them to cut down trees for firewood until there are none left ( where > the locals had preserved the trees by their culture which revered them). > > One enough trees are cut, the microclimate changes. ( Enough trees > transpire moisture into the air, which falls as rain, which the trees absorb > ... ). > > So what can be done to reverse the process? - ie to get the trees growing > again they need water, where do we get it from. I know of some experiments > where they covered the soil with a black oil/ or something: this was > supposed to induce thermals to create rain. Also, by placing a rock on one > side of a plant, it would cool during the night and dew would run down into > the soil. > > I would be very interested in more information. Reafforestation is vital. > Let's get on with it !!! > > Lynton > > At 02:52 PM 4/29/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Hugh Lovel wrote: > >(snip): > > > >>I might add, that my research has always been with the vision in mind > >>of reclaiming the Sahara, where there are no trees. Perhaps this gives a > > > >>bias to my thinking, who knows? > > > > > > Hugh, I'd be interested in hearing more about your thoughts on > >this idea of desert reclamation. Why the Sahara in particular? Might it > >not be true that deserts exist in some sort of polarity with rainforest > >or polar ice sheets, maintaining a natural global balance? Or is the > >Sahara evidence of some ancient catatrophic mismanagement? > > > >Regards, > >Deborah > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________ > >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 30 18:05:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA02377 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:05:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03253; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03172 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:50:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.76] (max4-16.stc.net [208.210.132.144]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA16346 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:54:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:06:20 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Saturn/Moon Opposition this Friday a.m. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 820 >The upshot is, the sun can be anywhere from an hour fast to two >hours slow, depending where and when you are. > >F.Y.I. The Sun keeps (and Sundials read) LAT (local apparent time) > and the heavens keep LAST (local apparent sidereal time) > >Charlie Very Good Charlie! I hadn't thought to include such information, but it is good for everyone to know. I live near the border of eastern and central time zones. I drive across them fairly often. Af course, as an astrologer I have to calculate people's ascendants according to local time, which makes me very aware that this is different according to longitude in degrees, minutes and seconds of arc according to the precise location of the observer. Time zones are merely a convenience, as witness how broad a time zone central time is and how narrow mountain time zone is. Central stretches from east Tennessee all the way to El Paso, Texas. which is an absurdity and merely convenience. >From New Mexico across Arizona and then, change to Pacific in California. Pretty brief transition! But then, go to the poles and you can turn around in a circle and go through every time zone in just seconds. If you want to have fun, study an astrologer's methods of casting horoscopes no matter when or where and especially trying to figure out if the time on the birth certificate was local mean or daylight savings (or even war time during WW II, two hours advanced). Sheesh! It's a minefield of systems that could and should be simpler. Shucks, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 30 18:05:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA02390 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03289; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:51:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03177 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:50:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.76] (max4-16.stc.net [208.210.132.144]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA16359 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:54:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990429.145219.6342.2.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:35:17 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: cosmic pipe Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 821 >Hugh Lovel wrote: >(snip): > >>I might add, that my research has always been with the vision in mind >>of reclaiming the Sahara, where there are no trees. Perhaps this gives a > >>bias to my thinking, who knows? > > > Hugh, I'd be interested in hearing more about your thoughts on >this idea of desert reclamation. Why the Sahara in particular? Might it >not be true that deserts exist in some sort of polarity with rainforest >or polar ice sheets, maintaining a natural global balance? Or is the >Sahara evidence of some ancient catatrophic mismanagement? > >Regards, >Deborah > Deborah, I'm copying your full e-mail since it is short. What I asked myself once I realized BD was restorative agriculture was, "What is the fullest extent I could take this to?" My little voice answered, "Reclaiming the Sahara." Maybe you are aware of the idea that the Sahara was the site of the former "Garden of Eden" that we were sent away from it by angels of fire and that we cannot repossess until we have overcome the burden of our original sin. What is this original sin? How may we overcome this burden? For starters present culture is coming from a user mentality. We want to take, take , take, with no thought of giving. Our culture tells us we must expand and expand and never is there any sense of how to come into harmony with a stable, on-going ecological reality. Look at the American Indian on his plains, how the buffalo grazed everything flat in their wake and moved on, letting maximum regrowth take place and ultimatly the best of environmental health occurred. This was a healthy ecology, but with the European invasion it disappeared. Those soils grew great grains crops when Europeans arrived and further south in Texas, great cattle. Gradually these fertile lands required problem corrections, whether calcium, potassium, or even iron. But mostly it was because of not balancing forces properly on these farms. Who knew what all the factors were? The idea that we might return to the Garden of Eden is connected with our learning the wisdom of the Gods. We were outcast when we assumed the role of gods but had not their wisdom. We've got a steep mountain to climb to develop wisdom with what we do with the earth. At that point I have no doubt that citrus, palms and many other wonderful things may be grown in the Sahara. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Apr 30 18:05:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA02393 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03326; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:51:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03186 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:50:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.76] (max4-16.stc.net [208.210.132.144]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA16367 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:54:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001f01be9282$deb8a840$906fc0d1@donnas> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:52:08 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Saturn/Moon Opposition this Friday a.m. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 822 >Spraying would be a good thing to do on Friday the 30th....... but it has >been raining in western NC for 3 days now and must be raining in Tenn. and >North GA too........ > My instructions on 500 say not to spray before a rain, so I suppose >spraying in a rain would be of no use........ If it is not raining for a >while on Friday and I spray....... but it continues to rain that night or >the next day......... then what??? >When considering not to spray before a rain...... how long before ??? and >what does the rain do to the effects??? >Rain is badly needed here......but I hate to miss the opportunity of this >beneficial occurrence. >Donatera Dear Donatera, You can get way off track listening to such things. Rain has a definite tendency to wash away and disperse the effects of spraying 500 or barrel compost. Thus the caution of not spraying before heavy rain. Actually it isn't bad but just a matter that you might have to repeat the application. It helps to have a more direct perception of where these things are coming from. Try developing that. Tune your mind's eye to what goes on. Then you are not lost so much in the mists of this or that person's dogmatic statements. They probably meant well, but our language is too narrow to convey the right ideas. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 1 09:23:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA05061 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 09:23:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02854; Sat, 1 May 1999 09:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02817 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 09:09:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp7.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.107]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA09657 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 08:10:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <001801be93d4$559795a0$6b4b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: Subject: Homeopathic Milk & Honey Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 08:12:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 823 Hi Hugh, Would you mind posting the "recipe" for the milk & honey treatment. Perhaps some background, benefits & best times for application if you have the time... Thanks much, Julie PS...the swallows are returning! The bloodroot is blooming & folks are finding morels in the woods! Spring is FINALLY sprung here in the upper midwest! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 1 08:27:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA04885 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 08:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01399; Sat, 1 May 1999 08:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.243]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01320 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 08:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-57.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-57.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.57]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA52710 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 12:15:56 GMT Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 12:15:56 GMT Message-Id: <199905011215.MAA52710@out5.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: Sahara desert Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 824 Interesting. In the South Island of New Zealand the wind is predominantly from the west, and it has to traverse the wall of mountains known as the Southern Alps. The consequence is that the West Coast measures its rain by the metre while the Canterbury Plains (on the east) does it in inches. The west was typically rain forest. I'm not sure about the original flora on the east side but it is mostly grassland now, and used for grazing. Closer to the mountains the soil is very poor ( about 1 sheep to 10 acres I believe). In amongst all this, I remember travelling through Tekapo many years ago, and I was looking at this property right on the main road which had masses of mature trees. For a while it just didn't click, then I realised what could be done by a bit of 'gardening'. It seems that the journey from forest to desert is quite easy and can be quick. Travelling the other way seems fraught with problems. For example, new growth in semi-desert conditions is usually subject to severe fires. And the conundrum that trees need humus, while it's very difficult to make humus in the desert! Lynton >I don't know if any of you out there happened to catch the >documentary earlier this week on PBS about the Dust Bowl, but it was >AMAZING and right on target with this topic. One can read about the >Dust Bowl in school (and read the Grapes of Wrath), but it doesn't >make an impact like this documentary did, which was about the next >best thing to being there. Because of ruinous cultivation techniques >we came darn close to having our own Sarah in this country where the >"bread basket" used to be. I hadn't realized just how intense it was >until I saw pictures of dust storms that turned the sky black (and by >the color of the storm, people could tell where the storm was coming >from since the soils in different areas are different colors) and >pictures of corn fields covered in sand. > >I have, however, seen the consequences of "desertification" with my >own eyes having lived in the Dominican Republic on the >Haitian boarder. In this place it was clear how the land is >transformed from humid forest to hot, dry desert. Where I lived, >most the land was in the middle of that transition, though isolated >mountain pockets gave hints as to what it once was and what it should >be. It still rained almost every week of the year, though the >temperatures were quite a bit higher than even the "norm" that was in >the memory of the adolescents and the rain was less frequent. Just a >two hour walk over the boarder, however, brought one to the Haitian >dust bowl where the predominent color is the golden brown of the dirt >(not soil, dirt). There, one can see the rain falling only 5 or so >miles away and yet it almost NEVER reaches this Haitian village. The >contrast is astounding. > >Deforestation, slash and burn agriculture, monoculture crops, plowing >against the contours, lack of contour soil erosion barriers, grazing >of herds on denuded hillsides, poverty, war, and ignorance are making >deserts all over the place, not the least of which are in the souls >of the people living in these environments. > >So, maybe there was originally a natural balance of desert and rain >forest as was suggested in the original post, but every day that >balance is tipped in favor of deserts to the exclusion of all else. >(Even parking lots and the huge expanses of asphalt and concrete >count for a type of desertification.) Anita > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 1 11:05:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA05061 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 09:23:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02854; Sat, 1 May 1999 09:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02817 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 09:09:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp7.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.107]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA09657 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 08:10:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <001801be93d4$559795a0$6b4b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: Subject: Homeopathic Milk & Honey Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 08:12:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 825 Hi Hugh, Would you mind posting the "recipe" for the milk & honey treatment. Perhaps some background, benefits & best times for application if you have the time... Thanks much, Julie PS...the swallows are returning! The bloodroot is blooming & folks are finding morels in the woods! Spring is FINALLY sprung here in the upper midwest! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 1 11:05:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA04885 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 08:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01399; Sat, 1 May 1999 08:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.243]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01320 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 08:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-57.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-57.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.57]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA52710 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 12:15:56 GMT Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 12:15:56 GMT Message-Id: <199905011215.MAA52710@out5.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: Sahara desert Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 826 Interesting. In the South Island of New Zealand the wind is predominantly from the west, and it has to traverse the wall of mountains known as the Southern Alps. The consequence is that the West Coast measures its rain by the metre while the Canterbury Plains (on the east) does it in inches. The west was typically rain forest. I'm not sure about the original flora on the east side but it is mostly grassland now, and used for grazing. Closer to the mountains the soil is very poor ( about 1 sheep to 10 acres I believe). In amongst all this, I remember travelling through Tekapo many years ago, and I was looking at this property right on the main road which had masses of mature trees. For a while it just didn't click, then I realised what could be done by a bit of 'gardening'. It seems that the journey from forest to desert is quite easy and can be quick. Travelling the other way seems fraught with problems. For example, new growth in semi-desert conditions is usually subject to severe fires. And the conundrum that trees need humus, while it's very difficult to make humus in the desert! Lynton >I don't know if any of you out there happened to catch the >documentary earlier this week on PBS about the Dust Bowl, but it was >AMAZING and right on target with this topic. One can read about the >Dust Bowl in school (and read the Grapes of Wrath), but it doesn't >make an impact like this documentary did, which was about the next >best thing to being there. Because of ruinous cultivation techniques >we came darn close to having our own Sarah in this country where the >"bread basket" used to be. I hadn't realized just how intense it was >until I saw pictures of dust storms that turned the sky black (and by >the color of the storm, people could tell where the storm was coming >from since the soils in different areas are different colors) and >pictures of corn fields covered in sand. > >I have, however, seen the consequences of "desertification" with my >own eyes having lived in the Dominican Republic on the >Haitian boarder. In this place it was clear how the land is >transformed from humid forest to hot, dry desert. Where I lived, >most the land was in the middle of that transition, though isolated >mountain pockets gave hints as to what it once was and what it should >be. It still rained almost every week of the year, though the >temperatures were quite a bit higher than even the "norm" that was in >the memory of the adolescents and the rain was less frequent. Just a >two hour walk over the boarder, however, brought one to the Haitian >dust bowl where the predominent color is the golden brown of the dirt >(not soil, dirt). There, one can see the rain falling only 5 or so >miles away and yet it almost NEVER reaches this Haitian village. The >contrast is astounding. > >Deforestation, slash and burn agriculture, monoculture crops, plowing >against the contours, lack of contour soil erosion barriers, grazing >of herds on denuded hillsides, poverty, war, and ignorance are making >deserts all over the place, not the least of which are in the souls >of the people living in these environments. > >So, maybe there was originally a natural balance of desert and rain >forest as was suggested in the original post, but every day that >balance is tipped in favor of deserts to the exclusion of all else. >(Even parking lots and the huge expanses of asphalt and concrete >count for a type of desertification.) Anita > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 1 11:33:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA00529 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 11:33:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08172; Sat, 1 May 1999 11:18:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f209.hotmail.com [209.185.130.119]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08035 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 11:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 63085 invoked by uid 0); 1 May 1999 15:22:03 -0000 Message-ID: <19990501152203.63084.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.144.179.175 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 01 May 1999 08:22:03 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.144.179.175] From: "Connie Gilbert" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: The Biodynamic Honeybee Symposium Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 10:22:03 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 827 >> >Past Symposiums available by mail, email, or at this web site!! > >Http://www.igg.com/spiritual ag/european/steiner/beekeeping/beesymposium/ > (Thanks to Allan Balliett) > >Jim Jensen 87 Howard St. NE Atlanta, GA 30317 (404) 371-0341 >email - bdnut@mindspring.com > > \ I would like to get copies of the bee symposiums, but the link you posted doesn't work. Would you please post the correct link or email me privatly with the symposium at Moonglade@twlakes.net. Thanks Lynnaea _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 1 12:17:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA00529 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 11:33:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08172; Sat, 1 May 1999 11:18:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f209.hotmail.com [209.185.130.119]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08035 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 11:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 63085 invoked by uid 0); 1 May 1999 15:22:03 -0000 Message-ID: <19990501152203.63084.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.144.179.175 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 01 May 1999 08:22:03 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.144.179.175] From: "Connie Gilbert" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: The Biodynamic Honeybee Symposium Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 10:22:03 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 828 >> >Past Symposiums available by mail, email, or at this web site!! > >Http://www.igg.com/spiritual ag/european/steiner/beekeeping/beesymposium/ > (Thanks to Allan Balliett) > >Jim Jensen 87 Howard St. NE Atlanta, GA 30317 (404) 371-0341 >email - bdnut@mindspring.com > > \ I would like to get copies of the bee symposiums, but the link you posted doesn't work. Would you please post the correct link or email me privatly with the symposium at Moonglade@twlakes.net. Thanks Lynnaea _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 1 17:21:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA05278 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 17:21:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23921; Sat, 1 May 1999 17:07:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23828 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 17:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts2-16.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.199.48]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with SMTP id OAA15978 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 14:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002401be9417$0002e160$0cc76cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <001801be93d4$559795a0$6b4b2e9c@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: Homeopathic Milk & Honey Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 13:07:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 829 Julie: I'm not Hugh, but here's the recipe as printed in JPI's _Applied Biodynamics_, Winter, 1993: Woody THE MILK SPRAY / THE MILK & HONEY SPRAY When certain plants in the garden experience a sudden attack by detrimental insects or when plants seem to be experiencing great stress which is not overcome by the Barrel Compost (Thun recipe) or other BD preparation spray treatment, a spray of milk, or sometimes, a spray of milk and honey, can often bring benefits. While attempts to explain what is actually happening are difficult, the most evident result is a tremendous increase in the population of so-called beneficial insects, often in such numbers as to quickly eliminate as a problem the previous onslaught by the detrimental insects. The basic formula used is one (1) part milk to nine (9) parts water, i.e. 1:10 ratio. The honey is sometimes added in a ratio of 1:100 to the entire volume. Particularly when using the honey, the water should be warmed to aid in dissolving the honey. Each mixture is stirred in the customary Biodynamic fashion for 20 minutes and then sprayed in a medium to fine mist, somewhere between the large drops recommended for BD #500 and the fine mist recommended for BD #501. We generally stir and spray either 5 or 10 gallon batches with the following ratios: For five gallons of spray: Milk, 1/2 gallon, Water, 4 1/2 gallons For 10 gallons of spray: Milk, one gallon, Water, 9 gallons When used with Honey, for 5 gallons, 6.4 ozs by volume; for 10 gallons, 12.8 ozs. by volume. ----- Original Message ----- From: Julie To: Sent: Saturday, May 01, 1999 6:12 AM Subject: Homeopathic Milk & Honey > Hi Hugh, > > Would you mind posting the "recipe" for the milk & honey treatment. Perhaps > some background, benefits & best times for application if you have the > time... > > Thanks much, > > Julie > > PS...the swallows are returning! The bloodroot is blooming & folks are > finding morels in the woods! Spring is FINALLY sprung here in the upper > midwest! > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 1 18:18:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA05278 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 17:21:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23921; Sat, 1 May 1999 17:07:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23828 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 17:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts2-16.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.199.48]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with SMTP id OAA15978 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 14:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002401be9417$0002e160$0cc76cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <001801be93d4$559795a0$6b4b2e9c@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: Homeopathic Milk & Honey Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 13:07:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 830 Julie: I'm not Hugh, but here's the recipe as printed in JPI's _Applied Biodynamics_, Winter, 1993: Woody THE MILK SPRAY / THE MILK & HONEY SPRAY When certain plants in the garden experience a sudden attack by detrimental insects or when plants seem to be experiencing great stress which is not overcome by the Barrel Compost (Thun recipe) or other BD preparation spray treatment, a spray of milk, or sometimes, a spray of milk and honey, can often bring benefits. While attempts to explain what is actually happening are difficult, the most evident result is a tremendous increase in the population of so-called beneficial insects, often in such numbers as to quickly eliminate as a problem the previous onslaught by the detrimental insects. The basic formula used is one (1) part milk to nine (9) parts water, i.e. 1:10 ratio. The honey is sometimes added in a ratio of 1:100 to the entire volume. Particularly when using the honey, the water should be warmed to aid in dissolving the honey. Each mixture is stirred in the customary Biodynamic fashion for 20 minutes and then sprayed in a medium to fine mist, somewhere between the large drops recommended for BD #500 and the fine mist recommended for BD #501. We generally stir and spray either 5 or 10 gallon batches with the following ratios: For five gallons of spray: Milk, 1/2 gallon, Water, 4 1/2 gallons For 10 gallons of spray: Milk, one gallon, Water, 9 gallons When used with Honey, for 5 gallons, 6.4 ozs by volume; for 10 gallons, 12.8 ozs. by volume. ----- Original Message ----- From: Julie To: Sent: Saturday, May 01, 1999 6:12 AM Subject: Homeopathic Milk & Honey > Hi Hugh, > > Would you mind posting the "recipe" for the milk & honey treatment. Perhaps > some background, benefits & best times for application if you have the > time... > > Thanks much, > > Julie > > PS...the swallows are returning! The bloodroot is blooming & folks are > finding morels in the woods! Spring is FINALLY sprung here in the upper > midwest! > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 1 19:53:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA06861 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 19:53:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01997; Sat, 1 May 1999 19:39:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01799 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 19:36:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts1-19.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.199.20]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with SMTP id QAA28943 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 16:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <003301be942c$19793bc0$0cc76cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <19990501152203.63084.qmail@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: The Biodynamic Honeybee Symposium Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 14:18:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 831 Connie: Try http://www.igg.com/spiritual_ag/european/steiner/beekeeping/beesymposium/bee menu2.html Note the underline character between "spiritual" and "ag". Alternatively, link from: http://www.igg.com/bdnow W ----- Original Message ----- From: Connie Gilbert To: Sent: Saturday, May 01, 1999 8:22 AM Subject: Re: The Biodynamic Honeybee Symposium > > > >> > >Past Symposiums available by mail, email, or at this web site!! > > > >Http://www.igg.com/spiritual ag/european/steiner/beekeeping/beesymposium/ > > (Thanks to Allan Balliett) > > > >Jim Jensen 87 Howard St. NE Atlanta, GA 30317 (404) 371-0341 > >email - bdnut@mindspring.com > > > > > \ > > I would like to get copies of the bee symposiums, but the link you posted > doesn't work. Would you please post the correct link or email me privatly > with the symposium at Moonglade@twlakes.net. Thanks > Lynnaea > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 1 21:44:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA07745 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 21:44:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06913; Sat, 1 May 1999 21:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goofy.arcom.com.au (root@main-gw.arcom.senet.com.au [203.56.239.50]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06698 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 21:26:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ruicaish (c4-p49.arcom.com.au [203.152.250.242]) by goofy.arcom.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA16808 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 11:01:02 +0930 Message-ID: <001101be94c5$de60b320$f2fa98cb@ruicaish> From: "Vincent Brown" To: References: <001a01be92ad$1d78b500$b9fa98cb@ruicaish> <001501be9330$ad5fc2c0$694b2e9c@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 10:59:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 832 Dear Julie, Thankyou for the wonderful reply. Your book, "The Mysteries of Venus" by Mark Lerner sounds very interesting. That line from Gurdjief about Nature being a gift to Earth from Venus is spot on! I am coming at it from a very different angle but I have come to the same conclusion. The religion of Ancient Egypt has held my fascination for years. Upon learning that the principle god Osiris, the god of cyclic regeneration and growth was associated with the planet Venus, I looked deeper into the Astronomical cycles of Earth and Venus and found a very interesting fact. But before I go any further I must explain the math. While studying the Temples of Egypt (the plans of which were designed to comply with the religion) I found that the Golden Section played an important factor. For those unfamiliar with the Golden Section, it is the ratio of one to Phi (1:1.618). Phi, like Pi, being irrational is best described as a function rather than a number. This mathematical ratio governs ALL life on Earth. The spiral on the snail shell, or the seed pattern of the sunflower, the proportions of all animals and Humans - are all caused by this God-like ratio. The pentagram is the most simplest geometric figure which displays the Golden Section. Everytime a line (say the line drawn from head to foot of the pentagram) crosses another (from hand to hand) it dissects that line into two parts, and the lengths of these two parts are at the ratio of the Golden Section. The five petalled flower, the apple cut horizontally, the paw paw cut the same way, etc., all display the Golden Section in the form of the pentagram - the logo of the designer. The God of growth, Osiris who was influenced, or associated with Venus also had a number - 72. There are 72 degrees between each of the five points of the pentagram, and the Orbital Distance of Venus is 0.72 of Earth's orbit. As you mentioned, the interaction between Venus and the Sun forms a pentagram against the backdrop of the zodiac, this is caused by the same thing that causes the pentagram to form in life on Earth like the apple and the sunflower: the Venus year when compared to the Earth year is at the ratio of the Golden Section! No wonder Venus is the only planet which is considered female in the Greek (and most other culture's) mythology. She is our Mother Nature. Vincent. P.S. You mentioned E. Kranich speaking of the physical forms of certain Venusian plants. Which plants are considered Venusian? > The ag course discusses Venus' influence as well, although I had trouble > finding (or understanding) content to be very Venus-specific, probably is > there, but I'm not getting it... Which AG course was that may I ask? ----- Original Message ----- From: Julie To: Sent: Friday, 30 April 1999 10:41 Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts > Dear Vincent, > > I don't know the answer to your seed warmth triggering question, but I think > it is a good one, and hope that you know that the lack of response is > probably only due to the lack of time on the part of the listers right > now...such a busy time of year! > > I did, however want to go further with your great new question, so you don't > feel > ignored, for one thing, and because it is so interesting & should not fall > by the wayside. Maybe you > could share more on the agri-cultures you refer to...I do know the > Mesoamericans used Venus extensively & their calendar reflects her cycles > (are these the cultures you refer to?) > > I also have an interesting book "The Mysteries of Venus" by Mark Lerner, who > quotes Alice A. Bailey's "Esoteric Psychology I" and says "In the vegetable > kingdom the influence of Venus is predominant, amazing as this may seem to > some occult students" And later, starting with the suggestion made by > Gurdjieff, that "Nature" was the Earth's "organic receiving station", he > goes further by saying this means that the Earth cannot assimilate Solar > Energy directly, it is too pure, powerful & "unrefined" for the non-sacred, > struggling earth in the solar systemic school of life. So Nature was, shall > we say, invented by the spiritual powers that be, in order to transform > Solar Energy into something more palatable for the Earth, humanity & the > various planetary kingdoms. Further to this assertion that Venus rules the > plant kingdom, he says that Nature is Venus' special gift to Planet Earth. > Gurdjieff's suggestion of nature as Earth's "organic receiving station", > makes it seem that the plant kingdom functions as the earth's "nervous > system" (and human motor neurons clearly resemble trees. The word > "dendrites" from the Greek word for "tree") Alice Bailey's "Esoteric > Healing" says Venus rules the nervous system in human beings... > So clearly, Venus is an important player in the plant world. > > Coming to it from a different angle ("Planetary Influences upon Plants") E. > Kranich makes a stunning observations in comparing the physical forms of > certain Venusian plants to the actual planetary path of Venus in the > heavens. (The interaction between Venus& the Sun forms a pentagram against > the backdrop of the zodiac (talk about magic!!:-) over the course of the > 8-yr. Venus cycle) > > The ag course discusses Venus' influence as well, although I had trouble > finding (or understanding) content to be very Venus-specific, probably is > there, but I'm not getting it...so hopefully there is a smattering of things > to think about or follow up on, hopefully if they can spare a few > moments...someone more versed than I will jump in with some insights. > > Take care, > > Julie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Vincent Brown > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 1999 12:44 PM > Subject: Plan(e)ts > > > Hi, > > Unfortunately I had no replies to my question about the triggering of the > seed's growth by the warmth generated from the seed's own decompostion. > Hopefully I shall have better luck with this one: > > We know of course that the Sun and the Moon play an important role in the > life of the all things on the planet, and it is accepted in Astrology that > the planets influence our lives. But what of the vegetable Kingdom? > Wouldn't it also be true that the planets have an influence on the Plant as > well as the Human? > > The reason I ask is because I believe that I have found evidence in some > ancient cultures who had mastered agriculture to suggest that the cycles of > Venus were used. > > Vincent. > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 1 21:44:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA07753 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 21:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06948; Sat, 1 May 1999 21:30:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goofy.arcom.com.au (root@main-gw.arcom.senet.com.au [203.56.239.50]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06699 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 21:26:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ruicaish (c4-p49.arcom.com.au [203.152.250.242]) by goofy.arcom.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA16816 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 11:01:05 +0930 Message-ID: <001201be94c5$df8ed2e0$f2fa98cb@ruicaish> From: "Vincent Brown" To: References: Subject: Re: Saturn/Moon Opposition this Friday a.m. Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 11:00:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 833 Hi, I am living in South Australia where is almost mid autumn. I have just prepared the beds and would like to know what veggies are best to plant in my garden for this time of year. It is fairly well shaded by a row of pine trees and so it suffers from lack of direct light, and therefore I have in the past had trouble growing in that bed through winter. Any tips would be greatly appreciated. Vincent. ----- Original Message ----- From: Hugh Lovel To: Sent: Friday, 30 April 1999 14:52 Subject: Re: Saturn/Moon Opposition this Friday a.m. > >Spraying would be a good thing to do on Friday the 30th....... but it has > >been raining in western NC for 3 days now and must be raining in Tenn. and > >North GA too........ > > My instructions on 500 say not to spray before a rain, so I suppose > >spraying in a rain would be of no use........ If it is not raining for a > >while on Friday and I spray....... but it continues to rain that night or > >the next day......... then what??? > >When considering not to spray before a rain...... how long before ??? and > >what does the rain do to the effects??? > >Rain is badly needed here......but I hate to miss the opportunity of this > >beneficial occurrence. > >Donatera > > Dear Donatera, > > You can get way off track listening to such things. Rain has a definite > tendency to wash away and disperse the effects of spraying 500 or barrel > compost. Thus the caution of not spraying before heavy rain. Actually it > isn't bad but just a matter that you might have to repeat the application. > It helps to have a more direct perception of where these things are coming > from. Try developing that. Tune your mind's eye to what goes on. Then you > are not lost so much in the mists of this or that person's dogmatic > statements. They probably meant well, but our language is too narrow to > convey the right ideas. > > Best, > > Hugh Lovel > 8475 Dockery Road > Blairsville, Georgia > > "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping > himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he > wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has > gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 2 03:04:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA10723 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 03:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA18962; Sun, 2 May 1999 02:44:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand.global.net.uk (sand.global.net.uk [194.126.82.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA18827 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 02:42:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pc8s03a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.211.201] helo=compaq) by sand.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 10dq1J-0004V6-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 2 May 1999 07:46:33 +0100 Message-ID: <372BF2A6.2FAB@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 07:37:26 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Sahara desert References: <199905011215.MAA52710@out5.ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 834 Lynton Blair wrote: > > Interesting. > > In the South Island of New Zealand the wind is predominantly from the west, > and it has to traverse the wall of mountains known as the Southern Alps. > The consequence is that the West Coast measures its rain by the metre while > the Canterbury Plains (on the east) does it in inches. The west was > typically rain forest. I'm not sure about the original flora on the east > side but it is mostly grassland now, and used for grazing. Closer to the > mountains the soil is very poor ( about 1 sheep to 10 acres I believe). In > amongst all this, I remember travelling through Tekapo many years ago, and I > was looking at this property right on the main road which had masses of > mature trees. For a while it just didn't click, then I realised what could > be done by a bit of 'gardening'. > > It seems that the journey from forest to desert is quite easy and can be > quick. Travelling the other way seems fraught with problems. For example, > new growth in semi-desert conditions is usually subject to severe fires. > And the conundrum that trees need humus, while it's very difficult to make > humus in the desert! > > Lynton > >I don't know if any of you out there happened to catch the > >documentary earlier this week on PBS about the Dust Bowl, but it was > >AMAZING and right on target with this topic. One can read about the > >Dust Bowl in school (and read the Grapes of Wrath), but it doesn't > >make an impact like this documentary did, which was about the next > >best thing to being there. Because of ruinous cultivation techniques > >we came darn close to having our own Sarah in this country where the > >"bread basket" used to be. I hadn't realized just how intense it was > >until I saw pictures of dust storms that turned the sky black (and by > >the color of the storm, people could tell where the storm was coming > >from since the soils in different areas are different colors) and > >pictures of corn fields covered in sand. > > > >I have, however, seen the consequences of "desertification" with my > >own eyes having lived in the Dominican Republic on the > >Haitian boarder. In this place it was clear how the land is > >transformed from humid forest to hot, dry desert. Where I lived, > >most the land was in the middle of that transition, though isolated > >mountain pockets gave hints as to what it once was and what it should > >be. It still rained almost every week of the year, though the > >temperatures were quite a bit higher than even the "norm" that was in > >the memory of the adolescents and the rain was less frequent. Just a > >two hour walk over the boarder, however, brought one to the Haitian > >dust bowl where the predominent color is the golden brown of the dirt > >(not soil, dirt). There, one can see the rain falling only 5 or so > >miles away and yet it almost NEVER reaches this Haitian village. The > >contrast is astounding. > > > >Deforestation, slash and burn agriculture, monoculture crops, plowing > >against the contours, lack of contour soil erosion barriers, grazing > >of herds on denuded hillsides, poverty, war, and ignorance are making > >deserts all over the place, not the least of which are in the souls > >of the people living in these environments. > > > >So, maybe there was originally a natural balance of desert and rain > >forest as was suggested in the original post, but every day that > >balance is tipped in favor of deserts to the exclusion of all else. > >(Even parking lots and the huge expanses of asphalt and concrete > >count for a type of desertification.) Anita > > Dear Lynton I hope you don't mind me chipping in here but is it true in your neck of the woods that there are black Beech trees that exude lots of honeydew and that the bees around those parts make their honey from it? Rex From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 2 03:05:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA10735 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 03:05:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA19196; Sun, 2 May 1999 02:50:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand.global.net.uk (sand.global.net.uk [194.126.82.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA19086 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 02:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pc8s03a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.211.201] helo=compaq) by sand.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 10dq6O-0004Vo-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 2 May 1999 07:51:49 +0100 Message-ID: <372BF527.26D@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 07:48:07 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Looking for herb businesses] References: <3723684A.1D94F05F@erols.com> <37236C39.6F06@globalnet.co.uk> <372482EC.10DE@cwcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 835 Tony Nelson-Smith wrote: > > Rex - I did a double take too - but don't forget that this outfit is in > the US, where they write their dates month/day/year. I remember reading > a whole (not very good) detective novel based on British mis- > understanding of abbreviated American dates. Do you think they'd be > interested in producing a UK edition ? Tony N-S. Dear Tony-Nelson Smith where are you? I am in Berkhamsted in Hertfordshire 30 miles or so from Central London Regards Rex From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 2 06:08:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA11812 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 06:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA23324; Sun, 2 May 1999 05:54:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA23272 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 05:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([203.96.104.110]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990502095745.SNZG7099562.mta2-rme@default> for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 21:57:45 +1200 Message-ID: <372C21ED.28E4@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 21:59:09 +1200 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Moon opp Saturn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 836 Hugh Lovel wrote Biodynamic practitioners in > >New Zealand regard the Saturn/Moon opposition as one of the most favorable > >aspects for seed germination and > >application of biodynamic sprays. Aspects can be regarded as having an > >effect beginning at least twelve hours prior to the > >event until at least six hours after. The closer to the actual time of a > >Saturn/Moon opposition the more effective is one's > >action likely to be). Hi all I have been using Moon opp Saturn for seed sowing for about 5 years with some very interesting results. I have specially been working with perennial seed that is hard to germinate. My first observation was some 4 to 5years ago when I was supplied with ehough seed to produce 1000 plants, the germination rate was between 150 to 200 percent, diferent species of the same plant gave me the varying percentage rates. My second observation was in germinating cold germinaters i.e. seed that required warm, cold and then warm conditions to germinate. Aconitum is a notoriously difficult seed to germinate. It was in JUNE 98 that I collected my own seed and sowed about 5 seedling trays hoping for about 1000 plants to my amazement and my staffs horror we pricked out 2000 seedlings from ONE tray and dumped the rest. Outline of seed sowing method when MOON opp SATURN. I always do this work in the morning 2 days before I fill trays with seed sowing mix and water, then spray with a 1/100 solution of liquid seaweed Morning before I sow my seed and then again spray with liquid seaweed before covering with compost. The trays are left on a hot bed set at about 20 degrees. Most varities of seed are germinating several days ahead of suppliers recomendations particularly annuals. For cold germinaters I leave on hot bed until the next Moon opp Saturn and then I place them into my cool store at a temp of 5 degrees until the next Moon opp Saturn occurs and then they are moved back to the hot beds. Germination then occurs over the next few weeks depending on the variety. Seedlings are then pricked out during the following descending period on the appropiate leaf or flower day. All seedlings are dipped into tree paste during pricking out this method is giving me very strong healthy plants and improved germination rates and at the end of the day a better bank balance. IT is worth trying. Cheers Tony Robinson Rambler Flowers NEW ZEALAND From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 2 06:10:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA11822 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 06:10:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA23414; Sun, 2 May 1999 05:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA23333 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 05:54:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-183.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-183.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.183]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA53662 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 09:58:57 GMT Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 09:58:57 GMT Message-Id: <199905020958.JAA53662@out1.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: Sahara desert Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 837 > is it true in your neck of >the woods that there are black Beech trees that exude lots of honeydew >and that the bees around those parts make their honey from it? > Hi Rex, You are correct: I don't know all the facts, but I know they grow on the West Coast of the South Island. The honeydew is an important part of the diet of at least one native bird. Unfortunately, the introduced "German" wasps are also feeding on it; they have no real enemies in NZ, so are causing many problems including the demise of the species of bird. It's a big worry. As it happens, there was a program on TV showing the above just recently. Lynton From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 2 11:55:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13963 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 11:55:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02448; Sun, 2 May 1999 11:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02295 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 11:38:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.20.48]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sun, 2 May 1999 16:44:12 +0100 Message-ID: <372C6D0B.7DC9@cwcom.net> Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 16:19:39 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Moon opp Saturn References: <372C21ED.28E4@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 838 Dear Tony - I must be thick: please explain how you obtain a germination rate greater than 100 per cent ?? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 2 16:57:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA16663 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 16:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA19198; Sun, 2 May 1999 16:43:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtfm.midcoast.com (root@dns.midcoast.com [206.26.226.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19117 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 16:42:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jpt (liberty-c-019.midcoast.com [208.153.20.119]) by rtfm.midcoast.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA25941 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 16:47:28 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990502162656.0085cec0@midcoast.com> X-Sender: stgeorge@midcoast.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 16:26:56 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "John P. Thomas and Kathleen Barrett" Subject: Need to Visit a BD Farm in Texas In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 839 Dear BDers A good friend of mine is being treated for Environmental Illness (EI) in a residential clinic in Dallas Texas, USA. She was living in Maine and had some profound experiences at St. George farm as we sprayed our fields with preps last fall. She is looking for a BD farm in TX where she can visit and volunteer her labor. Even though she is highly reactive to agricultural chemicals, pollutants, solvents, manufactured fragrances, and electro magnetic fields She is physically strong. She is looking for opportunities to get out of the city, breathe fresh air, and volunteer her time in a clean environment. She wants to help promote biodynamic practices and heal the Earth. She is presently living in Dallas and hopes to move away from the city in the near future. Thus, BD farms need not be near Dallas. For health reasons, she wants to stay in the climate of southwest. Please send me your responses and I will forward them to her via snail mail. Thanks John St. George Farm Freedom, Maine, USA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 2 18:30:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA17461 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 18:30:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA25249; Sun, 2 May 1999 18:16:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f150.hotmail.com [209.185.131.213]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA25135 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 18:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 84625 invoked by uid 0); 2 May 1999 22:18:14 -0000 Message-ID: <19990502221814.84624.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.144.106.142 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 02 May 1999 15:18:14 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.144.106.142] From: "Connie Gilbert" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ...horn clay prep Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 17:18:14 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 840 I'm glad you got to meet Jeff. He lives in the next county from me. I first heard of BD farming at a seminar and tour of his farm he was giving. Jeff is a great guy, he has many, many friends in my area. You may have noticed, he is known as the barefoot farmer because he is seldom seen wearing shoes. :-) Connie > > Saw Jeff Poppen at a do of organic farmers/gardeners....here in western >North Carolina last Sunday. Wished there was more time to just talk to him >because he was the only other BD person there...... but it was nice to meet >him in person after reading his column. > regards, > Donatera > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 2 19:15:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA18259 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 19:15:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28283; Sun, 2 May 1999 19:00:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28006 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 18:57:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.76] (max18-5.stc.net [208.210.139.133]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA02638 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 19:02:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199904300753.HAA97588@out2.ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 20:31:05 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Sahara desert Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 841 Lynton writes: >X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net >Mime-Version: 1.0 >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >From: Lynton Blair >Subject: Re: Sahara desert >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org > >As I understand it, the Sahara was a lush forest with lions, elephants etc. >Wheat was grown in Egypt. (Remember the 'Hanging Gardens of Babylon' ?). > >The spread of the desert to the south seems to be caused by the southward >movement of people it is displacing - these people have a culture that >causes them to cut down trees for firewood until there are none left ( where >the locals had preserved the trees by their culture which revered them). > >One enough trees are cut, the microclimate changes. ( Enough trees >transpire moisture into the air, which falls as rain, which the trees absorb >... ). > >So what can be done to reverse the process? - ie to get the trees growing >again they need water, where do we get it from. I know of some experiments >where they covered the soil with a black oil/ or something: this was >supposed to induce thermals to create rain. Also, by placing a rock on one >side of a plant, it would cool during the night and dew would run down into >the soil. > >I would be very interested in more information. Reafforestation is vital. >Let's get on with it !!! > >Lynton Dear Lynton, I'd agree that deforestation has been foremost in the transformation of the Sahara into desert. And there is a lot that might be done in terms of reforestation if there was any real effort made in that direction. A large part of what made the Sahara into a desert was cultural. For one thing, it was overgrazed, and since wealth was measured in head of livestock, overstocking tended to occur. Wilhelm Reich even theorized that the practice of infant male circumcision left residual masculine insecurity that ensured assertiveness and thus a propensity to try to carry too many head of livestock on the land in order to prove one's masculinity. But there are other theories. Velikovsky charts the development of the desert in the Sahara from a major meteorit impact that poisoned the ethers, causing the desert to grow and spread. One thing is rather clear. There is a poisoning of the ethers over the Sahara and has been for some time. Usually healthy etheric activity in the atmosphere flows from the west to the east. However, hurricanes are born as heat problems in the Sahara and migrate from east to west across the Atlantic Ocean. You might compare this to the fallout from Chernobyl, which spread from the Ukaraine all across western Europe, contrary to the normal prevailing winds. Well, any given locality has what is called it's "wind rose" pattern and this developes rather like a rose blossom opening up. But it seems that unhealthy, toxic and poisonous conditions tend to move east to west and healthy flows tend to move west to east. I wouldn't credit weather forecasters with knowing much about the ether and its healthy or diseased conditions. I'd rather refer you to someone like James DeMeo or Trevor Constable on this subject, as these are two of Welhelm Reich's disciples. I believe that with the biodynamic preparations it is possible to cure the diseased conditions in the ether over the Sahara. I've done this in my locality where by use of sequential spraying of the BD preps we have overcome many occasions when drought became a problem. I haven't used my irrigation equipment in 6 years, and in the past couple years I've gone to just doing radionic treatments with the BD preps in the radionic instrument with the farm's aerial photo in the well. It's worked very well. But at Jeff Poppen's BD conference in Tennessee last September we did the physical sequential spray and broke a 35 day drought. We left in the rain, though none had been forecast. Interestingly, seems to only happen with healthy etheric conditions. But what about floods? These are kind of an opposite problem with the ethers, which seem to get "stuck" in either the dry or the wet mode. I believe that spraying the sequential spray of all the BD preps at the noon and midnight rather than the dawn and sunset times will alleviate flooding. We had floods here in Georgia in '94 that nearly washed away the lower half of the state. 100 dams burst, 500 bridges were washed out and over 1,200 culverts. The Army Corps of Engineers has revised their flood control strategies as a result. I think biodynamic preparations could have ameliorated this situation. Since I've been thinking about reclaiming the Sahara for over 20 years you can imagine I have a lot more thinking into this. I couldn't hardly express it all in one e-mail. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 2 19:15:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA18275 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 19:15:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28383; Sun, 2 May 1999 19:00:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28028 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 18:57:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.76] (max18-5.stc.net [208.210.139.133]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA02668 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 19:02:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001f01be9282$deb8a840$906fc0d1@donnas> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 21:30:15 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Saturn/Moon Opposition this Friday a.m. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 842 >Spraying would be a good thing to do on Friday the 30th....... but it has >been raining in western NC for 3 days now and must be raining in Tenn. and >North GA too........ > My instructions on 500 say not to spray before a rain, so I suppose >spraying in a rain would be of no use........ If it is not raining for a >while on Friday and I spray....... but it continues to rain that night or >the next day......... then what??? >When considering not to spray before a rain...... how long before ??? and >what does the rain do to the effects??? >Rain is badly needed here......but I hate to miss the opportunity of this >beneficial occurrence. >Donatera Spraying in a driving rain is probalby not very useful--expect fot the watershed. Spraying in a very misty rain is brobably the best conditions to spray in. So you have to understanbd the mechanics involved. Water carries this stuff. You wouldn't want to spray 501 into the atmosphere on a rainy day when it would all get dashed to earth. It is an atmosphere spray. And spraying 500 or BC in the evening in dry, dry weather doesn't work so sell either. The really like a gentle rain to carry them into the soil. That's the best condition. No doubt it helps to know and realize these kinds of things. Nature isn't so much a mystery as that we have made her so. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 2 19:15:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA18267 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 19:15:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28341; Sun, 2 May 1999 19:00:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28018 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 18:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.76] (max18-5.stc.net [208.210.139.133]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA02660 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 19:02:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <41EE29725FE@agecon.uga.edu> References: <199904300753.HAA97588@out2.ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 21:09:14 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Sahara desert Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 843 Anita wrote: > >Deforestation, slash and burn agriculture, monoculture crops, plowing >against the contours, lack of contour soil erosion barriers, grazing >of herds on denuded hillsides, poverty, war, and ignorance are making >deserts all over the place, not the least of which are in the souls >of the people living in these environments. > >So, maybe there was originally a natural balance of desert and rain >forest as was suggested in the original post, but every day that >balance is tipped in favor of deserts to the exclusion of all else. >(Even parking lots and the huge expanses of asphalt and concrete >count for a type of desertification.) Anita Dear Anita, Very profound observations, especially about the souls of the people living in these environments. We have many impoverished souls on this planet, and there is no other answer but to provide spiritual food. As I put it in my book, " It is not much help to a starving man to make him dependent on the breadlines. He benefits more from a few fishhooks and some seed corn. Likewise the priesthood might do more than dole out a meager spiritual reassurance. It should lead people to find truth, hope and empowerment where these things originate in personal everyday life." We must teach people to identify truths, discover hope, develop empowerment. Holy smoke! That's obvious. Why does nobody say these things? What the hell is being taught in our schools? Multiplication tables? Alphabets? I rail against this kind of thing because to my way of thinking the most basic requierments of education are (1) observation, (2) acknowledgment (end of cycle) and (3) follow through. I know this takes may forms, but if you have these three basic skills you can learn anything. Just don't pass over anything that you don't understand. Heaven help us that we are not doing this. Inspiration is not an expensive commodity! Very probably this is one of the central questions of desert reclaimation. And until we answer it our Genesis "angel of fire" will keep us out of the garden of eden. Here we have assumed rulership of the earth as though we were gods, but we haven't the wisdom, only the arrogance. The human race is in the midst of heavy duty growing pains. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 2 19:36:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA18488 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 19:36:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29381; Sun, 2 May 1999 19:16:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from users.mcmedia.com.au (users.mcmedia.com.au [203.17.148.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29154 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 19:13:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199905022313.TAA29154@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 17716 invoked from network); 2 May 1999 23:20:34 -0000 Received: from seymour-ppp6.seymour.net.au (HELO dad) (203.33.235.106) by users.mcmedia.com.au with SMTP; 2 May 1999 23:20:34 -0000 From: paulwall@users.mcmedia.com.au To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:14:18 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Spring treatments for BD Grape Vines Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Priority: normal In-reply-to: Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 844 Allan, here are some web sites on Viticulture. This is a french BD site http://autre-regard.alienor.fr/english/index.html This is Cornell U's site, dig deep enough and you will find conference papers of Organic grape and wine production. http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/faculty/pool/GrapePagesIndex.html All round site http://www.grapeguru.com/ More growing information http://www.atinet.org/cati/verc/ Background on grapes http://www.grapeseek.com/ hope this helps. regards from Australia Paul Paul Walliker paulwall@mcmedia.com.au From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 3 09:31:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA27823 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 09:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12702; Mon, 3 May 1999 09:17:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12595 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 09:16:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00C2F38B@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 3 May 1999 9:19:57 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 3 May 99 09:20:30 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 3 May 99 09:20:24 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:20:16 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Moon opp Saturn Priority: normal In-reply-to: <372C21ED.28E4@xtra.co.nz> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <45FA2BE6462@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 845 > Hi all > I have been using Moon opp Saturn for seed sowing for about 5 years > with some very interesting results. I have specially been working with > perennial seed that is hard to germinate. > My first observation was some 4 to 5years ago when I was supplied with > ehough seed to produce 1000 plants, the germination rate was between > 150 to 200 percent, diferent species of the same plant gave me the > varying percentage rates. Tony, how do you get germination rates of more than 100%? Are you saying that you have managed to make the seeds magically multiply before they even sprout? Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 3 09:36:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA27983 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 09:36:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13019; Mon, 3 May 1999 09:23:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12969 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 09:22:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00C2F712@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 3 May 1999 9:26:24 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 3 May 99 09:26:58 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 3 May 99 09:26:52 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:26:50 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Osiris Priority: normal In-reply-to: <001101be94c5$de60b320$f2fa98cb@ruicaish> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <45FBE591802@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 846 Dear Vincent, Loved all the anecdotes regarding the Golden Ratio (as I know it to be called). Just curious though, I though Osiris was the god of the underworld and associated with Isis? Anita > Dear Julie, > > Thankyou for the wonderful reply. Your book, "The Mysteries of Venus" by > Mark Lerner sounds very interesting. That line from Gurdjief about Nature > being a gift to Earth from Venus is spot on! I am coming at it from a very > different angle but I have come to the same conclusion. The religion of > Ancient Egypt has held my fascination for years. Upon learning that the > principle god Osiris, the god of cyclic regeneration and growth was > associated with the planet Venus, I looked deeper into the Astronomical > cycles of Earth and Venus and found a very interesting fact. But before I > go any further I must explain the math. > > While studying the Temples of Egypt (the plans of which were designed to > comply with the religion) I found that the Golden Section played an > important factor. For those unfamiliar with the Golden Section, it is the > ratio of one to Phi (1:1.618). Phi, like Pi, being irrational is best > described as a function rather than a number. This mathematical ratio > governs ALL life on Earth. The spiral on the snail shell, or the seed > pattern of the sunflower, the proportions of all animals and Humans - are > all caused by this God-like ratio. The pentagram is the most simplest > geometric figure which displays the Golden Section. Everytime a line (say > the line drawn from head to foot of the pentagram) crosses another (from > hand to hand) it dissects that line into two parts, and the lengths of these > two parts are at the ratio of the Golden Section. The five petalled flower, > the apple cut horizontally, the paw paw cut the same way, etc., all display > the Golden Section in the form of the pentagram - the logo of the designer. > > The God of growth, Osiris who was influenced, or associated with Venus also > had a number - 72. There are 72 degrees between each of the five points of > the pentagram, and the Orbital Distance of Venus is 0.72 of Earth's orbit. > > As you mentioned, the interaction between Venus and the Sun forms a > pentagram against the backdrop of the zodiac, this is caused by the same > thing that causes the pentagram to form in life on Earth like the apple and > the sunflower: > > the Venus year when compared to the Earth year is at the ratio of the Golden > Section! > > No wonder Venus is the only planet which is considered female in the Greek > (and most other culture's) mythology. She is our Mother Nature. > > > > Vincent. > > > > P.S. You mentioned E. Kranich speaking of the physical forms of certain > Venusian plants. Which plants are considered Venusian? > > > The ag course discusses Venus' influence as well, although I had trouble > > finding (or understanding) content to be very Venus-specific, probably is > > there, but I'm not getting it... > > Which AG course was that may I ask? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Julie > To: > Sent: Friday, 30 April 1999 10:41 > Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts > > > > Dear Vincent, > > > > I don't know the answer to your seed warmth triggering question, but I > think > > it is a good one, and hope that you know that the lack of response is > > probably only due to the lack of time on the part of the listers right > > now...such a busy time of year! > > > > I did, however want to go further with your great new question, so you > don't > > feel > > ignored, for one thing, and because it is so interesting & should not > fall > > by the wayside. Maybe you > > could share more on the agri-cultures you refer to...I do know the > > Mesoamericans used Venus extensively & their calendar reflects her cycles > > (are these the cultures you refer to?) > > > > I also have an interesting book "The Mysteries of Venus" by Mark Lerner, > who > > quotes Alice A. Bailey's "Esoteric Psychology I" and says "In the > vegetable > > kingdom the influence of Venus is predominant, amazing as this may seem to > > some occult students" And later, starting with the suggestion made by > > Gurdjieff, that "Nature" was the Earth's "organic receiving station", he > > goes further by saying this means that the Earth cannot assimilate Solar > > Energy directly, it is too pure, powerful & "unrefined" for the > non-sacred, > > struggling earth in the solar systemic school of life. So Nature was, > shall > > we say, invented by the spiritual powers that be, in order to transform > > Solar Energy into something more palatable for the Earth, humanity & the > > various planetary kingdoms. Further to this assertion that Venus rules the > > plant kingdom, he says that Nature is Venus' special gift to Planet Earth. > > Gurdjieff's suggestion of nature as Earth's "organic receiving station", > > makes it seem that the plant kingdom functions as the earth's "nervous > > system" (and human motor neurons clearly resemble trees. The word > > "dendrites" from the Greek word for "tree") Alice Bailey's "Esoteric > > Healing" says Venus rules the nervous system in human beings... > > So clearly, Venus is an important player in the plant world. > > > > Coming to it from a different angle ("Planetary Influences upon Plants") > E. > > Kranich makes a stunning observations in comparing the physical forms of > > certain Venusian plants to the actual planetary path of Venus in the > > heavens. (The interaction between Venus& the Sun forms a pentagram against > > the backdrop of the zodiac (talk about magic!!:-) over the course of the > > 8-yr. Venus cycle) > > > > The ag course discusses Venus' influence as well, although I had trouble > > finding (or understanding) content to be very Venus-specific, probably is > > there, but I'm not getting it...so hopefully there is a smattering of > things > > to think about or follow up on, hopefully if they can spare a few > > moments...someone more versed than I will jump in with some insights. > > > > Take care, > > > > Julie > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Vincent Brown > > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 1999 12:44 PM > > Subject: Plan(e)ts > > > > > > Hi, > > > > Unfortunately I had no replies to my question about the triggering of the > > seed's growth by the warmth generated from the seed's own decompostion. > > Hopefully I shall have better luck with this one: > > > > We know of course that the Sun and the Moon play an important role in the > > life of the all things on the planet, and it is accepted in Astrology that > > the planets influence our lives. But what of the vegetable Kingdom? > > Wouldn't it also be true that the planets have an influence on the Plant > as > > well as the Human? > > > > The reason I ask is because I believe that I have found evidence in some > > ancient cultures who had mastered agriculture to suggest that the cycles > of > > Venus were used. > > > > Vincent. > > > > > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 3 11:22:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01109 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 11:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21437; Mon, 3 May 1999 11:08:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pacific.net (pacific.pacific.net [199.4.80.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21385 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 11:08:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwatkins.tri.com (tcclay-36.pacific.net [206.184.5.36]) by pacific.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id IAA09633 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 08:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002e01be9577$5fad6ac0$2405b8ce@cwatkins.tri.com> From: "Carole & Marlin" To: Subject: newbie springtime questions Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 08:12:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 847 Greetings, I am in the process of becoming a Biodynamic farmer (hopefully). I have a few questions I was hoping someone might have time to answer in the near future, even though I realize this is a busy time of year for most in the north. Next year I am planning on growing herbs for the medicinal herbal market, but this year I am only expecting to gain some experience with farming and to improve the soils that I intend to work on. As an overview, I am on 32 acres of bottom land in Potter Valley, CA (Mendocino County). The land has the capability of flood irrigation and is about 2.5 acres wide and 1/2 mile long (east west) mostly encircled with blackberries. The house, barn, ect. is on the northeast corner of the property, in town (corner of West and Main St.). The prior owners did soil survey tests of 14 holes, 3 depths each. These have both chemical and structural analysis. The prior use of the land was strictly leased grazing with no improvements or additions made to the soil, besides the cattle excrement, offset by regular haying. Basically the ground is pasture, >clay, but tons of worms. Probably somewhat compacted since cattle were left on the fields some winters and the weight of the water used in irrigation. The ground does not absorb the water too readily from my observation so far. The most recent leasors stock, were not given antibiotics or other drugs. We (Carole and I) have made plans to put in about 120 hardwood trees on 5 acres in the very near future. We are planning on keeping 2/3 of the land in pasture continuously. I have started compost piles of horse manure/bedding with old hay and kitchen scraps. Last fall I ordered from JPI, Barrel Compost and Prep 500 for the whole property. We did not get to spread it last fall due to the start of the rains. This spring I am planning on putting 1000 lbs. per acre of lime on the whole property. I am also planning on spreading 23 tons of manure on to 5 acres of the southwest corner of the property (seems to have the best drainage) where the production crops will be placed. This besides spraying the BC and Prep 500 on the whole property. My first question is what order to put down which of the above? I have a spader to incorporate the grasses (mostly rye but some clover and many other things I know not) that I assume need to be mowed down first. The soils general stats are 2.5-5.3% organic matter, surface layer, pH 6.1-7.0 (most >6.5), Ca/Mg ratio 1.4 to 3.4 (Ca - low, Mg - very high), Fe, Mn, Mg, Cu, all very high. Zn, P, S, N all very low. There is more stats, but I don't want to get to lost in the numbers. I understand most of them didactically, but not necessarily interactively. I am planning on planting 1 acre of soybeans as a seed crop and 1 acre of alfalfa, both more for the experience than anything else. Besides it might support the continuation of non-GMO seeds. The other 3 acres will each have test bed crops of assorted herbs such as Angelica, Passionflower, Astragalus, Mullein, Feverfew, Arnica, Skullcap, Chamomile, Calendula, Burdock, etc. Another concern is the bedding of these plants. I was initially planning on doing raised beds but I am not sure if the flood irrigation will wick up to the plants at the top of the bed. Question 2; Would row planting without beds be better? I know I am asking a lot. Any information besides the 2 questions asked specifically would be appreciated. If you don't have time I understand. Thank you in advance and I hope your enjoying the spring. Marlin Press & Carole Watkins >From Beautiful Potter Valley, CA carolemarlin@pacific.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 3 15:16:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA08771 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 15:16:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12587; Mon, 3 May 1999 15:02:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f191.hotmail.com [209.185.130.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01742 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 12:57:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 23822 invoked by uid 0); 3 May 1999 17:01:45 -0000 Message-ID: <19990503170145.23821.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.230.25.27 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 03 May 1999 10:01:45 PDT X-Originating-IP: [205.230.25.27] From: "Connie Gilbert" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Osiris Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 12:01:45 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 848 > >Dear Vincent, >Loved all the anecdotes regarding the Golden Ratio (as I know it to >be called). Just curious though, I though Osiris was the god of the >underworld and associated with Isis? Anita > Ahhhhh Egypt, my favorite pantheon. Originally Osiris was an agricultural god. Hence, like many other agricultural gods, he died and was resurected - as the plants die in winter and are reborn in the spring. Isis is his wife/sister, she used her healing knowledge to bring him back to life when his brother murdered and dismembered him. When the ancient egyptians died they were said to become Osiris, meaning they would be reborn in the afterlife. I could go on but this is the myth in a nutshell. Connie _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 3 15:17:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA08783 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 15:17:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12769; Mon, 3 May 1999 15:03:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11273 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 14:50:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.20.60]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Mon, 3 May 1999 19:56:07 +0100 Message-ID: <372DC723.52BF@cwcom.net> Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 16:56:19 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Saturn/Moon Opposition (2) References: <199904291326.JAA29113@loki.intrepid.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 849 I missed out on following up Jeanne Mozier's posting about Buddha's Birthday; it probably just puts my ignorance on display, but can anyone please explain why it's referred to as the Taurus Moon when the moon was in Scorpio - apart from the fact that the two signs are opposite each other ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 3 20:46:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA15827 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:46:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12708; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:30:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goofy.arcom.com.au (root@main-gw.arcom.senet.com.au [203.56.239.50]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12565 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:28:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ruicaish (c3-p9.arcom.com.au [203.152.250.138]) by goofy.arcom.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA20159 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 10:02:32 +0930 Message-ID: <001a01be9650$0b4b8000$8afa98cb@ruicaish> From: "Vincent Brown" To: References: <45FBE591802@agecon.uga.edu> Subject: Re: Osiris Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:03:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 850 Dear Anita, Yes what you said is true, Osiris is the god of the underworld and is associated with Isis - she is his sister/wife. So it could be also said then that Isis is then associated with Venus as she is his female counterpart (Is that what you are insinuating?). Funny thing is, the star of Isis is said to be Sothis (Sirius) which is the second brightest star in the sky after Venus. In fact, it is believed that there is some confusion over whether the ancients were referring to Sirius or Venus with the word Sothis. Immanuel Velikovsky wrote several books on this subject (see 'Peoples of the Sea, chapter III). Vincent. ----- Original Message ----- From: Anita Graf (Staff) To: Sent: Monday, 3 May 1999 2:26 Subject: Osiris > Dear Vincent, > Loved all the anecdotes regarding the Golden Ratio (as I know it to > be called). Just curious though, I though Osiris was the god of the > underworld and associated with Isis? Anita > > > Dear Julie, > > > > Thankyou for the wonderful reply. Your book, "The Mysteries of Venus" by > > Mark Lerner sounds very interesting. That line from Gurdjief about Nature > > being a gift to Earth from Venus is spot on! I am coming at it from a very > > different angle but I have come to the same conclusion. The religion of > > Ancient Egypt has held my fascination for years. Upon learning that the > > principle god Osiris, the god of cyclic regeneration and growth was > > associated with the planet Venus, I looked deeper into the Astronomical > > cycles of Earth and Venus and found a very interesting fact. But before I > > go any further I must explain the math. > > > > While studying the Temples of Egypt (the plans of which were designed to > > comply with the religion) I found that the Golden Section played an > > important factor. For those unfamiliar with the Golden Section, it is the > > ratio of one to Phi (1:1.618). Phi, like Pi, being irrational is best > > described as a function rather than a number. This mathematical ratio > > governs ALL life on Earth. The spiral on the snail shell, or the seed > > pattern of the sunflower, the proportions of all animals and Humans - are > > all caused by this God-like ratio. The pentagram is the most simplest > > geometric figure which displays the Golden Section. Everytime a line (say > > the line drawn from head to foot of the pentagram) crosses another (from > > hand to hand) it dissects that line into two parts, and the lengths of these > > two parts are at the ratio of the Golden Section. The five petalled flower, > > the apple cut horizontally, the paw paw cut the same way, etc., all display > > the Golden Section in the form of the pentagram - the logo of the designer. > > > > The God of growth, Osiris who was influenced, or associated with Venus also > > had a number - 72. There are 72 degrees between each of the five points of > > the pentagram, and the Orbital Distance of Venus is 0.72 of Earth's orbit. > > > > As you mentioned, the interaction between Venus and the Sun forms a > > pentagram against the backdrop of the zodiac, this is caused by the same > > thing that causes the pentagram to form in life on Earth like the apple and > > the sunflower: > > > > the Venus year when compared to the Earth year is at the ratio of the Golden > > Section! > > > > No wonder Venus is the only planet which is considered female in the Greek > > (and most other culture's) mythology. She is our Mother Nature. > > > > > > > > Vincent. > > > > > > > > P.S. You mentioned E. Kranich speaking of the physical forms of certain > > Venusian plants. Which plants are considered Venusian? > > > > > The ag course discusses Venus' influence as well, although I had trouble > > > finding (or understanding) content to be very Venus-specific, probably is > > > there, but I'm not getting it... > > > > Which AG course was that may I ask? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Julie > > To: > > Sent: Friday, 30 April 1999 10:41 > > Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts > > > > > > > Dear Vincent, > > > > > > I don't know the answer to your seed warmth triggering question, but I > > think > > > it is a good one, and hope that you know that the lack of response is > > > probably only due to the lack of time on the part of the listers right > > > now...such a busy time of year! > > > > > > I did, however want to go further with your great new question, so you > > don't > > > feel > > > ignored, for one thing, and because it is so interesting & should not > > fall > > > by the wayside. Maybe you > > > could share more on the agri-cultures you refer to...I do know the > > > Mesoamericans used Venus extensively & their calendar reflects her cycles > > > (are these the cultures you refer to?) > > > > > > I also have an interesting book "The Mysteries of Venus" by Mark Lerner, > > who > > > quotes Alice A. Bailey's "Esoteric Psychology I" and says "In the > > vegetable > > > kingdom the influence of Venus is predominant, amazing as this may seem to > > > some occult students" And later, starting with the suggestion made by > > > Gurdjieff, that "Nature" was the Earth's "organic receiving station", he > > > goes further by saying this means that the Earth cannot assimilate Solar > > > Energy directly, it is too pure, powerful & "unrefined" for the > > non-sacred, > > > struggling earth in the solar systemic school of life. So Nature was, > > shall > > > we say, invented by the spiritual powers that be, in order to transform > > > Solar Energy into something more palatable for the Earth, humanity & the > > > various planetary kingdoms. Further to this assertion that Venus rules the > > > plant kingdom, he says that Nature is Venus' special gift to Planet Earth. > > > Gurdjieff's suggestion of nature as Earth's "organic receiving station", > > > makes it seem that the plant kingdom functions as the earth's "nervous > > > system" (and human motor neurons clearly resemble trees. The word > > > "dendrites" from the Greek word for "tree") Alice Bailey's "Esoteric > > > Healing" says Venus rules the nervous system in human beings... > > > So clearly, Venus is an important player in the plant world. > > > > > > Coming to it from a different angle ("Planetary Influences upon Plants") > > E. > > > Kranich makes a stunning observations in comparing the physical forms of > > > certain Venusian plants to the actual planetary path of Venus in the > > > heavens. (The interaction between Venus& the Sun forms a pentagram against > > > the backdrop of the zodiac (talk about magic!!:-) over the course of the > > > 8-yr. Venus cycle) > > > > > > The ag course discusses Venus' influence as well, although I had trouble > > > finding (or understanding) content to be very Venus-specific, probably is > > > there, but I'm not getting it...so hopefully there is a smattering of > > things > > > to think about or follow up on, hopefully if they can spare a few > > > moments...someone more versed than I will jump in with some insights. > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > Julie > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Vincent Brown > > > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > > > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 1999 12:44 PM > > > Subject: Plan(e)ts > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Unfortunately I had no replies to my question about the triggering of the > > > seed's growth by the warmth generated from the seed's own decompostion. > > > Hopefully I shall have better luck with this one: > > > > > > We know of course that the Sun and the Moon play an important role in the > > > life of the all things on the planet, and it is accepted in Astrology that > > > the planets influence our lives. But what of the vegetable Kingdom? > > > Wouldn't it also be true that the planets have an influence on the Plant > > as > > > well as the Human? > > > > > > The reason I ask is because I believe that I have found evidence in some > > > ancient cultures who had mastered agriculture to suggest that the cycles > > of > > > Venus were used. > > > > > > Vincent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 3 23:57:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA19250 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 23:57:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA26130; Mon, 3 May 1999 23:43:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25996 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 23:42:41 -0400 (EDT) From: hbc@world.std.com Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (STD1.2/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA26633; Mon, 3 May 1999 23:47:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 133mhz (world.std.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA28977; Mon, 3 May 1999 23:47:10 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990503235253.00b93e4c@world.std.com> X-Sender: hbc@world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 23:52:58 -0400 To: Biodynamic Farming Subject: Puddles Newsletter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 851 Puddles Comment: Rating Guide to Environmentally Healthy Metro Areas, Robert S. Weinhold, M.A., Animas Press, Durango, CO 19997 This book offers a detailed look at the pollutants that we encounter daily in our environment. It is especially interesting to see the ranking of cities in water quality and their additional characteristics that contribute to those ratings, such as nearby military facilities, and agricultural acreage. A must read for those concerned with providing clean water to animals. "All sides agree that many drinking-water facilities are crumbling and outdated. For 1995 there were about 16,000 violations of drinking water standards, monitoring rules and reporting rules in about 1,800 systems. Most violations occurred within metropolitan areas." (28-29), Robert S. Weinhold, M.A., Rating Guide to Environmentally Healthy Metro Areas. Puddles Fact: 12-17 June 1999, in Portland, Maine. "Growing Market" conference offers ideas and solutions about solar energy in the 21st century. Ross GElspan and Andrew M. Vessey will speak at the conference. For more information visit the web site at "http://www.ases.org/solar/" >From the folks at Happy Bird. Other Facts and information about animals and water are on our homepage, at "http://www.petsforum.com/happybird/" From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 4 06:09:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA22819 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 06:09:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA12028; Tue, 4 May 1999 05:55:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA11963 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 05:53:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([210.55.145.130]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990504095930.HZME6952170.mta1-rme@default> for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 21:59:30 +1200 Message-ID: <372EC559.6646@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 22:00:57 +1200 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Moon opp Saturn References: <372C21ED.28E4@xtra.co.nz> <372C6D0B.7DC9@cwcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 852 Dear Tony and Anita There is no magic about the high germination rates as I described in my earlier post about seed sowing Moon opp Saturn. I buy my seed from a German seed firm who guarantees that I will get 1000 plants from the seed I sow. When their germination tests are low they add more seed I believe. So with the strong influence of the moon opp saturn I improved their germination rate. This occured to about 4 varieties of seed that year. When I get time I will look up my notes to see if there where any other strong influences about. Not only do I get good germination strikes I also get some poor strikes which could be from either poor quality seed or some other facters that affect seed sowing, like old seed , sowing wrong time of year and the occasional mouse looking for some where warm to live. The results have been good enough for me to continue to use this influence for all my seed sowing . A good strike will also allow me to prick out the seedlings during the next decending period especially on fast growing vegetables and annuals.I also find it helps to spread the work load through out the month and it keeps my seed sowing away from the watery influences of the full moon which is useful to me in our cooler moist climate Hope this helps to explain some kiwi magic from down under. Cheers Tony Robinson Rambler Flowers NewZealandTony Nelson-Smith wrote: > > Dear Tony - I must be thick: please explain how you obtain a > germination rate greater than 100 per cent ?? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 4 12:07:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA28576 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 12:07:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03431; Tue, 4 May 1999 11:51:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03174 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 11:49:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.5.18]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Tue, 4 May 1999 16:55:31 +0100 Message-ID: <372F18D4.1682@cwcom.net> Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 16:57:08 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: GE crop toxicity testing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 853 More from "New Scientist" (a magazine which, on the whole, tends to come down in favour of GE crops): in an article entitled Unpalatable Truths (17th April), it is suggested that the effects which Arpad Puztai found upon feeding GE potatoes to rats were due to malnourishment, as he was unable to feed them enough of the potatoes. It goes on to point out that standard lab animal toxicity tests cannot be applied to GE foods (or, indeed, any foods) since it is difficult to feed them enough to show toxic effects, as would be done with (for example) a new food additive. What the developers of GE foods do is to put the novel genes into bacteria for testing - but, of course, the bacteria may not produce the same new compounds as the plant would and cannot show other possibly harmful changes that might occur in the plant. The complexity of possible changes is so great that the NMR spectra of normal and transgenic plants would have to be compared and many individual compounds identified for separate toxicity testing (these components differ greatly according to growing conditions, too !). This would be enormously tedious and extremely expensive. Thus, when Monsanto et al call attention to the meticulous testing that they have carried out, it's a load of gobbledegook - their testing is largely meaningless. The best answer they have is that, anyway, their foods have been more exhaustively tested than unmodified ones - necessarily so, as conventional food crops are not tested for toxicity. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 4 14:08:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01668 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 14:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14189; Tue, 4 May 1999 13:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13958 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 13:50:56 -0400 (EDT) From: OrgAgCons@aol.com Received: from OrgAgCons@aol.com (7815) by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id hCGAa15860 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 13:54:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1a969ca4.24608e66@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 13:54:46 EDT Subject: Re:Unsubscribe To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 854 I would like to unsubsribe Thank you OrgAgCons@aol.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 4 14:12:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01828 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 14:12:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14636; Tue, 4 May 1999 13:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14584 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 13:59:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00C48C34@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 4 May 1999 14:02:56 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 4 May 99 14:03:30 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 4 May 99 14:03:08 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 14:03:01 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: OFF: Canals rebuilt in Peru Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <47C5A281FE9@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 855 Just thought that someone else on the bd list would enjoy looking at the article posted at http://www.oneworld.org/patp/vol5/feature2.html which was recently pointed out on another list I subscribe to. It is about the work of one particular woman to reconstruct the ancient Peruvian water canals that previously supported thousands of people in an area that is now the site great impovrishment. I found it very interesting and inspiring. There is also a mention of bringing back lands that have been desertified since the canals fell out of use (Hugh, check it out!). It's not a complicated website with lots of links and stuff, but it's quite intersting and might raise some interesting questions and commentary. Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 4 18:43:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA08939 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:43:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10385; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10267 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:27:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.90.47.107] (dialup-166.90.47.107.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net [166.90.47.107]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10367 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 15:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905042232.PAA10367@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 15:34:09 -0700 Subject: SRJC From: "Robert Coulombe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 856 I found the ag prof's name- Andrew Lorand - Robert Coulombe ---------- >From: "Carole & Marlin" >To: >Subject: newbie springtime questions >Date: Mon, May 3, 1999, 8:12 AM > > > Marlin Press & Carole Watkins >>From Beautiful Potter Valley, CA > carolemarlin@pacific.net > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 5 07:35:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA18793 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 07:35:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22095; Wed, 5 May 1999 07:21:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21936 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 07:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.77] (max1-26.stc.net [208.210.131.26]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA17498 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 07:24:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001201be94c5$df8ed2e0$f2fa98cb@ruicaish> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 01:52:04 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Autumn Veggies Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id HAA21946 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 857 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org > >Hi, > >I am living in South Australia where is almost mid autumn. I have just >prepared the beds and would like to know what veggies are best to plant in >my garden for >this time of year. It is fairly well shaded by a row of pine trees and so >it suffers from lack of direct light, and therefore I have in the past had >trouble growing in that bed through winter. > >Any tips would be greatly appreciated. > >Vincent. Vincent, My favorite autumn veggies are brassicas (mustards, turnips, rape, chinese radishes, collards, kale, cabbage, and chinese cabbages, chinese mustards, typhon, diakons, mizuna, arugula). The first four of these do especially well mixed into a cover crop mix with winter rye and crimson clover that is broadcast and tilled in. The second four do well enough grown alone or transplanted into the rye and crimson clover as it is coming up. If winter temperatures don't go below -12°C the last five (which maybe are best planted in bare soil) will survive and the last nine will make vegetables. If temperatures are colder you better go with the first four. If temperatures don't get below about -6°C umbelifers (carrot, dill, fennel, parsley, parsnip, lovage, anise, celery) do fine. Also there are chicories such as endive, escarole, italian dandelions, raddichios that do well in the cool but not too cool weather. And there is spinach, broccoli, peas, leek, green onion and corn salad to consider. Spinach is a companion with garlic, though the garlic won't make bulbs until it gets warm again and the spinach has made seed. Many of these veggies are best planted as cooler weather approaches, though some like turnip, rape, spinach, green onion and corn salad can be planted with success in mid-autumn if wintertime isn't too cold. I know I've left some things out, but this is off the top of my head or I can't afford the time to respond. By all means experiment. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 5 07:35:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA18801 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 07:35:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22046; Wed, 5 May 1999 07:21:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21925 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 07:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.77] (max1-26.stc.net [208.210.131.26]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA17493 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 07:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002401be9417$0002e160$0cc76cce@netacc.net> References: <001801be93d4$559795a0$6b4b2e9c@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 01:17:57 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Homeopathic Milk & Honey Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 858 Woody wsrote: >The basic formula used is one (1) part milk to nine (9) parts water, i.e. >1:10 ratio. The honey is sometimes added in a ratio of 1:100 to the entire >volume. Particularly when using the honey, the water should be warmed to >aid in dissolving the honey. Each mixture is stirred in the customary >Biodynamic fashion for 20 minutes and then sprayed in a medium to fine mist, >somewhere between the large drops recommended for BD #500 and the fine mist >recommended for BD #501. We generally stir and spray either 5 or 10 gallon >batches with the following ratios: > >For five gallons of spray: > >Milk, 1/2 gallon, Water, 4 1/2 gallons > >For 10 gallons of spray: > >Milk, one gallon, Water, 9 gallons > >When used with Honey, for 5 gallons, 6.4 ozs by volume; for 10 gallons, 12.8 >ozs. by volume. Dear Woody, Julie M., et. al., I find the above recipe a bit rich. I am accustomed to spraying at a rate of 3 gallons of spray to the acre. At the above rates if milk were sprayed 1:10, which with 24 pints in three gallons, this means 2.4 pints of milk and 21.6 pints of water. Since there are 384 fluid ounces in three gallons, if honey were sprayed at 1:100 this would mean 3.84 ounces of honey to 380.16 ounces of water. What I have used in the past is around a third as much. Namely for 3 gallons of milk spray I use only a pint of milk (in 23 pints of water) and for three gallons of honey spray I used an ounce and a half of honey (in 23 pints, 30,5 ounces of water). Stirring time was twenty minutes for both milk and honey. These figures were arrived at separately by two people, one (myself) intuitive, one (Lorraine) dowsing, so with that much agreement (surprising, and it makes one wonder if one was reading the other's mind) I proceeded. That was for my farm using my own milk and honey, and it may not be the same for every farm or circumstance. Where possible I strongly recommend that growers learn to confidently make their own determinations rather than following rote formulas. You probably have heard the old joke, "How many anthroposophists does it take to change a light bulb?" Answer: Nobody knows. Steiner didn't give any indications. The trouble is Steiner gave all kinds of indications to folks about how to develop their inner knowing so that they confidently follow their own recommendations. Yet the norm is many or even most who purport to follow the trails Steiner blazed depend upon Steiner's specific recommendations and if Steiner gave none then paralysis ensues. Even worse, many of Steiner's general indications have long had a way of turning into established narrow dogmas in anthroposophical circles. So much so that one story has it that during a talk Steiner made some general comments about the consequences of smoking (tobacco) and after the talk a member of the audience came up and gushed his agreement that people hadn't ought to smoke and people should all stop smoking--whereupon Steiner fished out a cigarette, lit up and proceeded to puff away. You see, he hadn't said that people hadn't ought to smoke and should all stop. He'd merely laid out what some of the consequences of smoking were. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 5 07:35:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA18812 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 07:35:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22010; Wed, 5 May 1999 07:21:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21913 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 07:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.77] (max1-26.stc.net [208.210.131.26]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA17479 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 07:24:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001801be93d4$559795a0$6b4b2e9c@oemcomputer> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 00:18:53 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Homeopathic Milk & Honey Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 859 >Hi Hugh, > >Would you mind posting the "recipe" for the milk & honey treatment. Perhaps >some background, benefits & best times for application if you have the >time... > >Thanks much, > >Julie > >PS...the swallows are returning! The bloodroot is blooming & folks are >finding morels in the woods! Spring is FINALLY sprung here in the upper >midwest! Dear Julie, Back when we physically sprayed the preps we used a pint of milk to three gallons of water for an acre and an ounce and a half of honey to three gallons for an acre. Milk or honey, both are stirred for 20 minutes. Milk is sprayed on the ground in large droplets at evening, honey is sprayed in the atmosphere in a fine mist at early morning. Now that we are using the cosmic pipe to broadcast, Lorraine has made homeopathic potencies and determines which potencies are needed for each location by dowsing using the aerial photo or survey map. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 5 09:16:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA20139 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:16:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26159; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26013 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:00:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.77] (max9-9.stc.net [208.210.135.9]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA28100 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <47C5A281FE9@agecon.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:03:54 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF: Canals rebuilt in Peru Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 860 >Just thought that someone else on the bd list would enjoy looking at >the article posted at http://www.oneworld.org/patp/vol5/feature2.html >which was recently pointed out on another list I subscribe to. It is >about the work of one particular woman to reconstruct the ancient >Peruvian water canals that previously supported thousands of people >in an area that is now the site great impovrishment. I found it very >interesting and inspiring. There is also a mention of bringing back >lands that have been desertified since the canals fell out of use >(Hugh, check it out!). It's not a complicated website with lots of >links and stuff, but it's quite intersting and might raise some >interesting questions and commentary. Anita Dear Anita, Maybe someday I'll learn how to find these thing (web pages), but for now it's the biggest waste of time. I spent more than half an hour trying to find this and had to give up. Hugh Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 5 10:17:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA21242 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 10:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00816; Wed, 5 May 1999 10:03:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00738 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 10:02:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00C5672E@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 5 May 1999 10:06:48 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 5 May 99 10:07:23 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 5 May 99 10:07:07 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:06:57 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF: Canals rebuilt in Peru Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <47C5A281FE9@agecon.uga.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <4906BD2133E@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 861 > >Just thought that someone else on the bd list would enjoy looking at > >the article posted at http://www.oneworld.org/patp/vol5/feature2.html > >which was recently pointed out on another list I subscribe to. It is > >about the work of one particular woman to reconstruct the ancient > >Peruvian water canals that previously supported thousands of people > >in an area that is now the site great impovrishment. I found it very > >interesting and inspiring. There is also a mention of bringing back > >lands that have been desertified since the canals fell out of use > >(Hugh, check it out!). It's not a complicated website with lots of > >links and stuff, but it's quite intersting and might raise some > >interesting questions and commentary. Anita > > Dear Anita, > > Maybe someday I'll learn how to find these thing (web pages), but for now > it's the biggest waste of time. I spent more than half an hour trying to > find this and had to give up. > > Hugh > > Hugh Lovel > 8475 Dockery Road > Blairsville, Georgia > > "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping > himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he > wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has > gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour Oh Hugh, I'm so sorry! You should be able to just click on the address in my post and get there. Alternatively, you should be able to copy the address (highlight it with the mouse and the press the Ctrl button at the same time you press the key for "c" ) and then open up your internet connection and paste the address in the box (cursur in box, press Ctrl and "v" at the same time) then click again or press Enter and it SHOULD go right there! Is this, or something similar, what you already do? Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 5 12:12:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24115 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 12:12:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11779; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11717 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:58:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from West.Sun.COM ([129.153.100.30]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA15882 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nosun.West.Sun.COM by West.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id JAA12414; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:02:32 -0700 Received: from katza by nosun.West.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA03299; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:02:33 -0700 Message-Id: <199905051602.JAA03299@nosun.West.Sun.COM> Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:02:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Marta Hammel - PDX DSSR Sun/Portland Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Canals rebuilt in Peru To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: E0iQRHVtDdCBfPQ9k7XbqA== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.2.1 CDE Version 1.2.1 SunOS 5.6 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 862 Dear Anita & Hugh, et all, This is really worth the effort! What a great article and inspiration for us all. An appreciative lurker, Marta Portland, OR PS, I clicked on the highlighted address and it worked great! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 5 13:19:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25800 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 13:19:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20347; Wed, 5 May 1999 13:05:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA20173 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 13:04:23 -0400 (EDT) From: OrgAgCons@aol.com Received: from OrgAgCons@aol.com (14392) by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id hMIVa16142; Wed, 5 May 1999 13:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2a887695.2461d4f3@aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:08:03 EDT Subject: Fwd: Unsubscribe To: bdnow@envirolink.org CC: bd-l@biodynamics.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_2a887695.2461d4f3_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 863 --part1_2a887695.2461d4f3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unsubsribe --part1_2a887695.2461d4f3_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: OrgAgCons@aol.com From: OrgAgCons@aol.com Full-name: OrgAgCons Message-ID: <2a887695.24608e66@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 13:54:46 EDT Subject: Re:Unsubscribe To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 I would like to unsubsribe Thank you OrgAgCons@aol.com --part1_2a887695.2461d4f3_boundary-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 5 18:49:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA06482 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:49:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA22131; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21931 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:31:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.77] (max1-3.stc.net [208.210.131.3]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA13256 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:36:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4906BD2133E@agecon.uga.edu> References: <47C5A281FE9@agecon.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 18:36:32 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF: Canals rebuilt in Peru Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 864 >Oh Hugh, I'm so sorry! You should be able to just click on the >address in my post and get there. Alternatively, you should be able >to copy the address (highlight it with the mouse and the press the >Ctrl button at the same time you press the key for "c" ) and then >open up your internet connection and paste the address in the box >(cursur in box, press Ctrl and "v" at the same time) then click again >or press Enter and it SHOULD go right there! Is this, or something >similar, what you already do? Anita Cool to the Rule, Anita, I'm practically computer illiterate, and sometimes funble around with things for hours trying to find out how to do something. Klicking on the address worked. Hugh Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 5 19:20:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA07038 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:20:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24772; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:05:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fep8.mail.ozemail.net (fep8.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.102]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24533 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:03:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (slmlb4p30.ozemail.com.au [203.108.182.30]) by fep8.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA04593 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:07:47 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <005101be974b$6f453320$1eb66ccb@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: References: Subject: Re: OFF: Canals rebuilt in Peru Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 09:03:01 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 865 Hugh - why didn't you just click on the link? Gwenda ----- Original Message ----- From: Hugh Lovel To: Sent: Wednesday, 5 May 1999 11:03 Subject: Re: OFF: Canals rebuilt in Peru > >Just thought that someone else on the bd list would enjoy looking at > >the article posted at http://www.oneworld.org/patp/vol5/feature2.html > >which was recently pointed out on another list I subscribe to. It is > >about the work of one particular woman to reconstruct the ancient > >Peruvian water canals that previously supported thousands of people > >in an area that is now the site great impovrishment. I found it very > >interesting and inspiring. There is also a mention of bringing back > >lands that have been desertified since the canals fell out of use > >(Hugh, check it out!). It's not a complicated website with lots of > >links and stuff, but it's quite intersting and might raise some > >interesting questions and commentary. Anita > > Dear Anita, > > Maybe someday I'll learn how to find these thing (web pages), but for now > it's the biggest waste of time. I spent more than half an hour trying to > find this and had to give up. > > Hugh > > Hugh Lovel > 8475 Dockery Road > Blairsville, Georgia > > "Even as a man shapes a timber for a house or a bridge, he is also shaping > himself. He has in himself a material that can be shaped into anything he > wishes to be. The trouble is the shaping never ceases, and sometimes has > gone far along one line before a man realizes it." -- Louis L'Amour > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 6 06:40:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA16815 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 06:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA00892; Thu, 6 May 1999 06:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA00845 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 06:24:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.90] (pm3shep3-163-117.intrepid.net [209.190.163.117]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA32224 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 06:28:51 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990502221814.84624.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 06:29:36 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: ...Jeff Poppen Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 866 Dear Connie - If you see Jeff, would you please remind him to send me some more installments of "The Barefoot Farmer" for publishing on BD Now! and on the web? Thanks! -Allan Balliett moderator BD Now! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 6 12:50:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA23268 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25174; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24991 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:33:54 -0400 (EDT) From: OrgAgCons@aol.com Received: from OrgAgCons@aol.com (14449) by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id 6YYYa07562; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3e6ffeba.24631f30@aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 12:37:04 EDT Subject: Fwd: Unsubscribe To: bd-l@biodynamics.com CC: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_3e6ffeba.24631f30_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 867 --part1_3e6ffeba.24631f30_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unsubsribe --part1_3e6ffeba.24631f30_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: OrgAgCons@aol.com From: OrgAgCons@aol.com Full-name: OrgAgCons Message-ID: <3e6ffeba.2461d4f3@aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:08:03 EDT Subject: Fwd: Unsubscribe To: bdnow@envirolink.org CC: bd-l@biodynamics.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part2_3e6ffeba.2461d4f3_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 --part2_3e6ffeba.2461d4f3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unsubsribe --part2_3e6ffeba.2461d4f3_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: OrgAgCons@aol.com From: OrgAgCons@aol.com Full-name: OrgAgCons Message-ID: <3e6ffeba.24608e66@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 13:54:46 EDT Subject: Re:Unsubscribe To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 I would like to unsubsribe Thank you OrgAgCons@aol.com --part2_3e6ffeba.2461d4f3_boundary-- --part1_3e6ffeba.24631f30_boundary-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 6 14:42:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA26737 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 14:42:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05506; Thu, 6 May 1999 14:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05226 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 14:26:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.108]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990506183228.UWMY7202931.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 06:32:28 +1200 Message-ID: <3731E049.2665@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 06:32:41 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: GE takes another blow Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 868 =======================Electronic Edition======================== . . . RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY #649 . . ---May 6, 1999--- . . HEADLINES: . . BIOTECH: THE PENDULUM SWINGS BACK . . ========== . . Environmental Research Foundation . . P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403 . . Fax (410) 263-8944; E-mail: erf@rachel.org . . ========== . . All back issues are available by E-mail: send E-mail to . . info@rachel.org with the single word HELP in the message. . . Back issues are also available from http://www.rachel.org. . . To start your own free subscription, send E-mail to . . listserv@rachel.org with the words . . SUBSCRIBE RACHEL-WEEKLY YOUR NAME in the message. . ================================================================= BIOTECH: THE PENDULUM SWINGS BACK In recent months, opposition to genetically modified (GM) foods has exploded in both Europe and Asia.[1] A powerful consumer/farmer backlash has spread across Europe and the Indian subcontinent, raising eyebrows even in the somnolent U.S. ** In April, the seven largest grocery chains in six European countries made a public commitment to go "GM free" and now they are lining up long-term contracts with growers who can provide GM-free corn, potatoes, soybeans and wheat. ** The Supreme Court of India has upheld a ban on the testing of GM crops even as activists are torching fields suspected of harboring GM plants. ** The third-largest U.S. corn processor, A.E. Staley Co. of Decatur, Illinois, has announced that in 1999 it will refuse to accept genetically modified corn varieties that have not been approved by the European Union. Europeans create a huge market for U.S. crops and the European backlash forces U.S. farmers to think twice about planting GM seeds. The bellwether event was the announcement last month by seven European supermarket chains that they intend to jointly patronize growers who can deliver food that is 100% free of genetically modified (GM) organisms.[2] Tesco, Safeway, Sainsbury's, Iceland, Marks & Spencer, the Co-op, and Waitrose grocery chains make up the consortium. Last week Unilever, the huge transnational (and aggressive supporter of GM foods), announced it was throwing in the towel and joining the GM-free consortium. One day after Unilever capitulated, the Swiss firm Nestle made the same commitment. The following day Cadbury-Schweppes joined the ranks of the GM-free. It was a complete and unexpected rout for the genetic engineering industry. According to the London INDEPENDENT, the only major players still supporting GM foods in England are Monsanto Corporation and the Blair government. Just a few months ago, British Prime Minister Tony Blair had told members of parliament that opposition to GM foods would be "a flash in the pan." Now popular support for the Blair government itself has dwindled as opposition to GM foods has swelled. In his last election, Mr. Blair was supported financially by Monsanto, the leading proponent of genetically modified crops (see REHW #637, #638, and #639). Several factors seem to be at work in Europe: 1) Older people can still remember Nazi eugenics experiments -- Hitler's plan to create a "super race" by genetic selection. As a result, any genetic manipulation of living organisms to produce "super organisms" is suspect. 2) The recent "Mad Cow Disease" scare in England and France -- which has killed several dozen people so far and was brought on by the unnatural practice of feeding cows to cows -- has seriously undermined government credibility and has made Europeans wary of all unnatural farming practices. 3) Many Europeans -- as distinct from many Americans -- care about the taste and nutritional quality of their food and drink. Many Americans seem happy to subsist on french fried potatoes and iceberg lettuce accompanied by huge portions of low-grade, fat-laden beef. Many Europeans consider such fare barbaric. 4) On February 12 of this year, the first tentative evidence of health damage from GM foods emerged. Beginning in 1996, Dr. Arpad Pusztai of the Rowett Research Institute in Aberdeen, Scotland had been feeding genetically modified potatoes to rats and observing stunted growth and damaged immune systems, including damage to several major organs (kidney, spleen, thymus and stomach). Dr. Pusztai was a senior scientist at the Rowett Institute, having conducted research there for 35 years, during which time he published 270 scientific papers. In January, 1998 and again in April, 1998, Dr. Pusztai received permission from Philip James, the director of the Rowett Institute, to speak on British television. Although he is not categorically opposed to genetic engineering, in his April TV appearance, Dr. Pusztai said he would not eat genetically modified foods himself and he said it was "very, very unfair to use our fellow citizens as guinea pigs." Proponents of genetically modified foods protested loudly against this expression of informed opinion. On the first day of the controversy, Philip James defended Dr. Pusztai's right to speak his mind, but on the second day Mr. James suspended Dr. Pusztai, condemned his research, made him sign a gag order, and forced him to retire. An audit report by the Rowett Institute in August, 1998, vindicated Dr. Pusztai's research methods. At that point Dr. Pusztai was once again given access to his own research data and he vigorously reconfirmed his original conclusions. Dr. Pusztai's studies have not yet been published, so details remain unknown. The "Pusztai affair" lay dormant until February 12th of this year when a group of 20 scientists from 13 countries published a manifesto demanding the reinstatement of Dr. Pusztai and expressing support for his tentative conclusions. Only later was it discovered that the Rowett Institute is partly funded by Monsanto. The "Pusztai affair" lit a fire of public outrage that has since grown into a raging conflagration. For its part, Monsanto has admitted that no one knows -- or can know -- what will happen when genetically modified organisms are put directly into the human food chain and are released into the natural environment, as is the case with genetically modified crops. Robert Shapiro, the chief executive officer of Monsanto, said October 28, 1998, "We don't seek controversy, but obviously it has been thrust on us. It is a direct consequence of a role we have chosen. And it is a role which we can blame only ourselves for.... we realize that with any new and powerful technology with unknown, and to some degree unknowable -- by definition -- effects, then there necessarily will be an appropriate level at least, and maybe even more than that, of public debate and public interest."[3] It is clear that Monsanto's best-laid plans are coming unraveled. In the mid-1980s Monsanto convinced the U.S. government to agree that genetic engineering would not be subject to any new regulations, on the theory that a genetically modified potato is nothing more than a potato. Monsanto contributes bountifully to presidential candidates of both parties, and to key members of Congress who sit on food safety committees. Not surprisingly, the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) have taken a "hand off" approach to the introduction of this powerful new technology whose consequences are unknown and unknowable. And President Clinton -- who has been amply rewarded by Monsanto at election time -- has named Monsanto's Shapiro a "special trade representative" of the U.S. In sum, the U.S. federal government is forcefully aiding Monsanto as the corporation prepares to conduct a large-scale, uncontrolled experiment on the general public here and abroad. A key part of the Monsanto strategy was to mix genetically modified foods with traditional foods, and keep them all unlabeled so that no one would know what they were eating. By the time anyone figured out that they were eating "Frankenstein food" -- as it is now known in Europe -- it would be a done deal. Europeans are now hell-bent on reversing this mixture. As a spokesperson for the Tesco chain of supermarkets in England said recently, "We will remove GM ingredients where we can and label where we can't. In the short and medium term I expect the number of products containing GM ingredients to decline steadily, quite possibly to zero." And Fernanda Fau, a spokesperson for Eurocommerce, the association of European food retail chains said, "...the principle that segregation of GM ingredients is possible has now finally been accepted. We first lobbied for this two years ago and were told it was impossible." With GM foods identified, labeled and segregated, it will be possible for consumers to exercise choice in the grocery store. Then the future of genetically modified foods will be imperiled by the marketplace. Robert Shapiro has bet the entire future of the Monsanto corporation on unknown and unknowable GM foods, so informed choice by consumers is the company's worst nightmare. Monsanto's plans have gone awry in the Third World, too. Monsanto planned to introduce its genetically modified seeds accompanied by its patented "technology protection system" which makes the seeds from this year's crop sterile. Critics call Monsanto's seed sterilizing technology "terminator" and "suicide seeds." Wherever suicide seed technology is adopted, farmers will have to go back to Monsanto year after year to buy a new ration of genetically modified seeds. "By peddling suicide seeds, the biotechnology multinationals will lock the world's poorest farmers into a new form of genetic serfdom," says Emma Must of the World Development Movement. "Currently 80 per cent of crops in developing countries are grown using farm-saved seed. Being unable to save seeds from sterile crops could mean the difference between surviving and going under," she says. "More precisely," says Canadian journalist Gwynne Dyer, "it would speed the consolidation of small farms into the hands of those with the money to engage in industrialized agribusiness -- which generally means higher profits but less employment and lower yields per [unit of land]."[4] In February in Cartagena, Colombia diplomats from 175 countries met to hammer out a "biosafety protocol" to control the flow of genetically modified organisms across international borders. The U.S. and Canada favored a weak treaty that would not allow any country to prevent the import and release of genetically modified organisms merely to shelter its population from the socio-economic impact of industrialized, capital-intensive forms of farming, or merely on health or environmental grounds. The "other side" at Cartagena favored a strong treaty that gives countries the right to say no to GM organisms, requires a full study of the effects of GM foods on farmers' livelihoods, as well as health and environmental impacts, and makes biotech companies responsible for the legal and financial consequences if something goes wrong. The Third World fought Monsanto and the U.S. government to a draw in Cartagena and no biosafety protocol was adopted. But the whole process helped the Third World figure out where it stands on these issues, and this kind of informed, thoughtful deliberation bodes ill for Monsanto's plan for domination of global food supplies. As Canadian writer Gwynne Dyer sums it up, "The strategy for the high-speed introduction [of genetically modified foods] throughout the world is shaping up as one of the great public-relations disasters of all time. Public suspicion outside North America is reaching crippling proportions, and the reason is not at all mysterious. It is because the biotech firms literally tried to shove the stuff down peoples' throats without giving them either choice or information."[4] --Peter Montague (National Writers Union, UAW Local 1981/AFL-CIO) ========== [1] Unless otherwise noted, all of the information in this edition of Rachel's was taken from press reports posted on the listserv biotech-l@cornell.edu. To subscribe to biotech-l send an E-mail message to listproc@cornell.edu; in the body of the message put the words "sub biotech-l Your Name" without quotation marks. [2] Paul Waugh, "Brit. Stores Tesco and Unilever Ban Genetically Manipulated Products," THE INDEPENDENT (London, England), April 28, 1999, page unknown. [3] Shapiro quoted in MONSANTO MONITOR, introductory issue (January 1999), pg. 7. MONSANTO MONITOR is published monthly by A Seed Europe, P.O. Box 92066, 1090 AB Amsterdam, Netherlands. Tel. +31-20-468-2616; fax: +31-20-468-2275. Http://www.antenna.nl/aseed . Email: biotech@aseed.antenna.nl. [4] Gwynne Dyer, "World View, Biotechnology," [Toronto] GLOBE AND MAIL February 20, 1999, page unknown. Descriptor terms: genetic engineering; genetically modified organisms; agriculture; farming; food safety; monsanto; arpad pusztai; rowett institute; biotech; ################################################################ NOTICE In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107 this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving it for research and educational purposes. Environmental Research Foundation provides this electronic version of RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY free of charge even though it costs the organization considerable time and money to produce it. We would like to continue to provide this service free. You could help by making a tax-deductible contribution (anything you can afford, whether $5.00 or $500.00). Please send your tax-deductible contribution to: Environmental Research Foundation, P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403-7036. Please do not send credit card information via E-mail. For further information about making tax-deductible contributions to E.R.F. by credit card please phone us toll free at 1-888-2RACHEL, or at (410) 263-1584, or fax us at (410) 263-8944. --Peter Montague, Editor ################################################################ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 6 14:43:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA26748 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 14:43:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05553; Thu, 6 May 1999 14:28:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05264 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 14:26:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.108]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990506183242.UWNX7202931.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 06:32:42 +1200 Message-ID: <3731E057.6B8D@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 06:32:55 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: food irradiation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 869 Not sure if this has been posted to this list yet. ---- From: "valerie frances" To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Food Irradiation Comment Period Deadline Approaching Date: Wed, May 5, 1999, 7:59 AM ============================================================== Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project ============================================================== Unless you act by May 18, the Nuclear Industry Will Succeed in Forcing Irradiated Food Down Our Throats! *** A new Food and Drug Administration (FDA) rule would allow manufacturers to sell irradiated food without any label warning consumers. By nullifying the chief obstacle to the expanded use of radiation --consumer opposition-- this rule would pave the way for a significant expansion of the sale of irradiated food and give a boost to the nuclear industry. This would be a disaster!!! *** Over 550 new facilities would need to be built to irradiate various foodstuffs if irradiation expands to according to industry projections. *** Food irradiation facilities have a frightening record of accidents and other safety incidents. *** According to a Carnegie-Mellon study, operating irradiators just to treat meat and poultry (much less spices, wheat, and other foodstuffs) would be extremely risky, with a 99.7% chance of multiple major incidents at these facilities (a major incident is defined by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) as "those that result in a release or spill of radioactive material, bodily harm, or a long term shut down of the facility"). *** The long term health effects of eating irradiated food are unknown. Irradiation reduces the vitamin content of food and creates new chemical substances called radiolytic products. Some of these substances are known carcinogens, like benzene, and others are completely new substances that have not been tested for toxicity. *** ACT NOW!!! *** ** What you can do today ** *** Please write to the FDA and demand that the comment period be extended past May 18. Tell the FDA that food treated with radiation be indefinitely labeled with the radura (the international symbol for irradiated food) and a statement indicating it was treated with radiation. Say the absence of such a statement would be misleading because irradiation destroys vitamins and causes changes in sensory and spoilage qualities that are not obvious or expected by the consumer. Please DO NOT write a general statement opposing irradiation. The powers that be have already approved irradiation, we can only fight to keep the public informed (A sample letter can be found below). *** Write your Representative and Senators, telling them to oppose the FDA rule (a sample letter can be found below). *** Send this e-mail to as many concerned citizens as possible. When writing to FDA, refer to Docket #98N-1038, "Irradiation in the production, processing, and handling of food". Send comments before May 18, 1999 to: Dockets Management Branch (HFA-305) Food and Drug Administration 5630 Fishers Lane, Room 1061 Rockville, MD 20852 or Send e-mail to FDADockets@oc.fda.gov and/or FDADockets@fda.gov (Put Docket #98N-1038 in the subject line) NOTE: E-mail is discouraged because e-mails are often thrown out. A written letter is the most effective means of communication. SAMPLE LETTER TO FDA: Dockets Management Branch (HFA-305) Food and Drug Administration 5630 Fishers Lane, Room 1061 Rockville, Maryland 20852 Re: Docket No. 98N-1038, Irradiation in the Production, Processing, and Handling of Food To whom it may concern: I support the recommendation by the Center for Science in the Public Interest regarding labeling of irradiated foods: "any foods, or any foods containing ingredients that have been treated by irradiation, should be labeled with a written statement on the principal display panel indicating such treatment. The statement should be easy to read and placed in close proximity to the name of the food and accompanied by the international symbol. If the food is unpackaged, this information should be clearly displayed on a poster in plain view and adjacent to where the product is displayed for sale." Like other labels, irradiation labels are required by the FDA to be truthful and not misleading. I believe that the terms "treated with radiation" or "treated by irradiation" should be retained. Any phrase involving the word "pasteurization" is misleading because pasteurization is an entirely different process of rapid heating and cooling. I recognize the radura as information regarding a material fact of food processing. The requirement for irradiation disclosure (both label and radura) should not expire at any time in the future. The material fact of processing remains. Even if some consumers become familiar with the radura, new consumers (e.g., young people, immigrants) will not be. The symbol should be clearly understandable at the point of purchase for everyone. If there is no label, consumers will be misled into believing the food has not been irradiated. I urge you to extend the comment period past its current end date of May 18 to allow more concerned citizens the time to write in about this issue. Also, please place the comments received on the Internet so that the public can be informed about who is participating in this comment process. Sincerely, SAMPLE LETTER TO YOUR REPRESENTATIVE AND SENATORS The Honorable [ ] Washington, D.C. [ ] Senator/Representative [ ], I have recently been made aware of a frightening development at the Food and Drug Administration. Under pressure from food manufacturers and supporters of the nuclear industry, the FDA is considering a rule that would remove labeling requirements for foods treated with radiation. The public only has until May 18 to voice its objections to this rule. Currently, any food treated with radiation during the production process is labeled with a symbol known as a radura (the international symbol for irradiated foods) and either a statement saying "treated with radiation" or "treated by irradiation." The rule before the FDA would allow manufacturers to sell any and all irradiated foods to the consumer with nary a mention of the use of radiation during processing. This is bad for consumers. Despite the fact that the FDA has determined that radiation is safe for food, many consumers, including myself, do not want to eat foods treated with radiation. Radiation changes the texture, taste, nutritional value, and chemical composition of foods. Radiation creates a heretofore unseen class of unique radiolytic products that have never been tested for their possible carcinogenic effects on humans. These are things that I do not want to put into my body. This is a clear cut issue of a consumer being able to know what is in their food. We know what the fat, protein, carbohydrate, and vitamin content is in our food, why can we not know whether our food has been treated with radiation emanating from some of the most deadly substances known to man? I implore you, as a constituent and a friend, to write a letter to the FDA about this issue and ask them why your constituents should be kept in the dark about whether their food has been irradiated and why the comment period has been so short. Enclosed you will find the letter that I wrote to the FDA about this issue. I hope it is helpful in formulating your own comments. Sincerely, ====================================================== Questions about the CMEP-list can be directed to cmep@citizen.org ======================================================== To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 6 15:39:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA28116 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 15:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10462; Thu, 6 May 1999 15:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10115 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 15:21:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mroboz (d148.infoserve.net [199.175.157.148]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA15894 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <003b01be97f6$7e28baa0$949dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: Off/ [Fwd: Rachel #648: Pesticides and Aggression] Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 12:27:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE97BB.D0729000" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 870 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE97BB.D0729000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Ferdinand Vondruska To: daugherty gay ; Eterman, Marjin ; Gilman Simeon ; Gordon Eric ; Gotz Max ; Graf Anita ; Hall Ted ; Heintzmann Patsi ; Hirschnitz, Michaela ; Hirtz Urs ; Kalve Voctors ; Kohlbrenner, Daniel ; Kremer, Kathy ; Lampson Bjorn ; Lampson Olaf ; Lang Curtis ; Link Thomas ; Paakkonen, Jukka & Aira ; Roboz, Michael ; Ross Gordon ; Salminen Panu ; Scheichl Gary - home ; Schily, Martin ; Schulte-Schroeer Helga ; Spitzer Peter ; Toivonen Harri ; Truhponen Tarmo ; Vogel Othmar ; Vondruska, Martin ; Vondruska, Mr. Chris ; Walsh Herb Date: Monday, May 03, 1999 9:38 PM Subject: [Fwd: Rachel #648: Pesticides and Aggression] >Regards FV > >-- > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > >C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest >into an >understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar >World Forest >Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 > > ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE97BB.D0729000 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Description: Rachel #648: Pesticides and Aggression Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by gouda (mbox ferdy) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Mon May 3 21:12:19 1999) X-From_: montague@world.std.com Mon May 03 15:38:23 1999 Received: from europe.std.com ([199.172.62.20]) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10eRLx-0005xX-00; Mon, 3 May 1999 15:38:21 -0700 Received: by europe.std.com (STD1.2/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA26574; Mon, 3 May 1999 15:39:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 15:39:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199905031939.PAA26574@europe.std.com> To: rachel-weekly@world.std.com Subject: Rachel #648: Pesticides and Aggression From: rachel@rachel.org Sender: montague@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rachel@rachel.org X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 =======================Electronic Edition======================== . . . RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY #648 . . ---April 29, 1999--- . . HEADLINES: . . PESTICIDES AND AGGRESSION . . ========== . . Environmental Research Foundation . . P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403 . . Fax (410) 263-8944; E-mail: erf@rachel.org . . ========== . . All back issues are available by E-mail: send E-mail to . . info@rachel.org with the single word HELP in the message. . . Back issues are also available from http://www.rachel.org. . . To start your own free subscription, send E-mail to . . listserv@rachel.org with the words . . SUBSCRIBE RACHEL-WEEKLY YOUR NAME in the message. . ================================================================= PESTICIDES AND AGGRESSION For the past 25 years, tens of millions of Americans in hundreds of cities and towns have been drinking tap water that is contaminated with low levels of insecticides, weed killers, and artificial fertilizer. They not only drink it, they also bathe and shower in it, thus inhaling small quantities of farm chemicals and absorbing them through the skin. Naturally, the problem is at its worst in agricultural areas of the country. The most common contaminants are carbamate insecticides (aldicarb and others), the triazine herbicides (atrazine and others) and nitrate nitrogen.[1] For years government scientists have tested each of these chemicals individually at low levels in laboratory animals -- searching mainly for signs of cancer -- and have declared each of them an "acceptable risk" at the levels typically found in groundwater. Now a group of biologists and medical researchers at the University of Wisconsin in Madison, led by Warren P. Porter, has completed a 5-year experiment putting mixtures of low levels of these chemicals into the drinking water of male mice and carefully measuring the results. They reported recently that combinations of these chemicals -- at levels similar to those found in the groundwater of agricultural areas of the U.S. -- have measurable detrimental effects on the nervous, immune and endocrine (hormone) systems.[2] Furthermore, they say their research has direct implications for humans. Dr. Porter and his colleagues point out that the nervous system, the immune system, and the endocrine (hormone) system are all closely related and in constant communication with each other. If any one of the three systems is damaged or degraded the other two may be adversely affected. The Wisconsin researchers therefore designed their experiments to examine the effects of agricultural chemicals on each of the three systems simultaneously. To assess immune system function, they measured the ability of mice to make antibodies in response to foreign proteins. To assess endocrine system function, they measured thyroid hormone levels in the blood. And to assess nervous system function they measured aggressive behavior in the presence of intruder mice introduced into the cages. They also looked for effects on growth by measuring total body weight and the weight of each animal's spleen. The experiments were replicated many times, to make sure the results were reproducible. They found effects on the endocrine system (thyroid hormone levels) and the immune system, and reduced body weight, from mixtures of low levels of aldicarb & nitrate, atrazine & nitrate, and atrazine, aldicarb & nitrate together. They observed increased aggression from exposure to atrazine & nitrate, and from atrazine, aldicarb & nitrate together. The Wisconsin research team wrote, "Of particular signficance in the collective work of Boyd and others,[3] Porter and others,[4] and our current study[2] is that THYROID HORMONE CONCENTRATION CHANGE was consistently a response due to mixtures, but NOT usually to individual chemicals." [Emphasis in the original]. In the five-year experiment, thyroid hormone levels rose or fell depending upon the mixture of farm chemicals put into the drinking water. Dr. Porter and his colleagues present evidence from other studies showing that numerous farm chemicals can affect the thyroid hormone levels of wildlife and humans. PCBs and dioxins can have similar effects, they note. Proper levels of thyroid hormone are essential for brain development of humans prior to birth. Some, though not all, studies have shown that attention deficit and/or hyperactivity disorders in children are linked to changes in the levels of thyroid hormone in the blood. Children with multiple chemical sensitivity (MCS) have abnormal thyroid levels. Furthermore, irritability and aggressive behavior are linked to thyroid hormone levels. Interviewed recently by Keith Hamm of the SANTA BARBARA [CAL.] INDEPENDENT,[5] Dr. Porter explained, "Earlier work had shown that thyroid hormone typically changed when exposure to these pesticides occurred. Thyroid hormone not only affects and controls your metabolic rate, that is, how fast you burn food, it also controls your irritability level. For example, Type A personalities are more assertive, more aggressive, more hyper. These people tend to have higher levels of thyroid hormone. Type B personalities--people that are really laid back, really take things very easily--have lower levels of thyroid hormone. We expected that changes in thyroid [would] change irritability levels. This was a concern because there was information that kids are getting more hyper and [that their] learning abilities are going down," Dr. Porter said. A recent study of 4 and 5 year-old children in Mexico specifically noted a decrease in mental ability and an increase in aggressive behavior among children exposed to pesticides.[6] Elizabeth A. Guillette and colleagues studied two groups of Yaqui Indian children living in the Yaqui Valley in northern Sonora, Mexico. One group of children lives in the lowlands dominated by pesticide-intensive agriculture (45 or more sprayings each year) and the other group lives in the nearby upland foothills where their parents make a living by ranching without the use of pesticides. The pesticide-exposed children had far less physical endurance in a test to see how long they could keep jumping up and down; they had inferior hand-eye coordination; and they could not draw a simple stick figure of a human being, which the upland children could readily do. Notably, in the Guillette study we find this description of the behavior of pesticide-exposed children: "Some valley children were observed hitting their siblings when they passed by, and they became easily upset or angry with a minor corrective comment by a parent. These aggressive behaviors were not noted in the [pesticide-free] foothills [children]." The human body can defend itself against poisons to some degree, but Dr. Porter and his colleagues describe ways in which low-level mixtures of pesticides and fertilizer might get past the body's defenses: The body is prepared to protect itself against poisons taken by mouth. The liver begins to produce enzymes that try to break down fat-soluble chemicals. However, if a poison enters through the lungs or the skin, the body does not offer the same kind of defenses. Furthermore, the body's ability to put up defenses may be compromised by taking certain medications (e.g., antibiotics), or by receiving "pulses" of toxins rather than a steady dose. Receiving "pulses" of poisons would be normal in the case of agricultural poisons which are sprayed onto crops only at certain times of the year. During those periods, people living near sprayed fields might get a sudden dose of poison via their lungs, their skin and their drinking water. Dr. Porter describes such a situation this way: "Imagine [that] you're standing in a boxing ring and a boxer jumps in with you, and he walks toward you smiling with his hand outstretched. And you reach out to shake his hand and he smacks you in the stomach as hard as he can. And when you bring your arms up to defend yourself, he backs away. Finally you get tired of holding your defenses up and you drop them and he rushes in and smacks you again. That's the physical equivalent to a 'pulse dose,' which is normally what we tend to get exposed to. "The defenses we have take a while to induce, just like it takes a while to bring your arms up. It takes anywhere from a half a day to five days to induce those [defenses] to appropriate levels. If you're in a particular stage of your hormone cycle or you're taking some antibiotics, it can compromise your ability to defend yourself even if you did have enough time to induce your defenses. If you've got pulse doses coming in under your defenses or coming in faster than you can bring your defenses up then you've got a situation where you're totally vulnerable. "If you've got a pregnant mom, for example, in day 20 when the fetus's neural tube is closing and she gets an exposure, she hasn't had enough time to induce her defenses. Her thyroid level goes up or goes down, the hormone crosses the placenta and can permanently alter the developmental pattern of the fetus's brain. And then the pulse dose is gone, you have no detection, mom doesn't even know she's pregnant, and you may have an offspring that is neurologically compromised and wonder, 'How did this happen?'" In the interview with Keith Hamm, Dr. Porter expressed concern for the overall effect of pesticides on the nation's children: Hamm: "Are pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizer used more or less these days than fifty years ago and have the toxicities changed?" Porter: "The usage has continued to climb. There's an enormous amount of these [chemicals being used] right now. There was a recent study that examined the urine of people across the country, [asking] if people are being exposed. On average, anywhere from five to seven compounds were being excreted. There's a great deal of expo- sure to the general populace. "And yes, the toxicities have definitely changed. [Some toxicities are now measured] in the parts-per-trillion range. I would point out that fetuses are sensitive to chemicals in the parts per quadrillion range." Hamm: "I would assume that most people in this country are eating conventionally grown food. If that's the case, wouldn't the problems be more apparent? Why are there not more hyperaggressive dim-witted people with poor immune systems?" Porter: "If we really looked carefully at what's been happening in this county, you might find exactly that happening." * * * Because of recent violence in small cities and towns (such as Littleton, Colorado, Laramie, Wyoming, and Jasper, Texas), this is a time when Americans are searching for the causes of violence in their society. Some are blaming a decline in religious upbringing. Others are blaming households with the parents working and no one minding the kids. Some say the cause is violent movies, violent TV and extremist internet sites, combined with the ready availability of cheap guns. Still others point to a government that has often sanctioned the violence of "gunboat diplomacy" to open foreign markets for U.S. corporations. No one seems to be asking whether pesticides, fertilizers and toxic metals [see REHW #529, #551] are affecting our young people's mental capacity, emotional balance, and social adjustment. From the work of Warren Porter, Elizabeth Guillette and others, it is apparent that these are valid questions. --Peter Montague (National Writers Union, UAW Local 1981/AFL-CIO) ========== [1] Jack E. Barbash and Elizabeth A. Resek, PESTICIDES IN GROUND WATER (Chelsea, Michigan: Ann Arbor Press, 1996); Richard Wiles and others, TAP WATER BLUES (Washington, D.C.: Environmental Working Group, 1994); Brian A. Cohen and Richard Wiles, TOUGH TO SWALLOW (Washington, D.C.: Environmental Working Group, 1997); Environmental Working Group, POURING IT ON; NITRATE CONTAMINATION OF DRINKING WATER (Washington, D.C.: Environmental Working Group, 1996). See www.ewg.org. And: Gina M. Solomon and Lawrie Mott, TROUBLE ON THE FARM; GROWING UP WITH PESTICIDES IN AGRICULTURAL COMMUNITIES (New York: Natural Resources Defense Council, October, 1998). [2] Warren P. Porter, James W. Jaeger and Ian H. Carlson, "Endocrine, immune and behavioral effects of aldicarb (carbamate), atrazine (triazine) and nitrate (fertilizer) mixtures at groundwater concentrations," TOXICOLOGY AND INDUSTRIAL HEALTH Vol. 15, Nos. 1 and 2 (1999), pgs. 133-150. [3] C.A. Boyd, M.H. Weiler and W.P. Porter, "Behavioral and neurochemical changes associated with chronic exposure to low-level concentration of pesticide mixtures," JOURNAL OF TOXICOLOGY AND ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH Vol. 30, No. 3 (July 1990), pgs. 209-221. [4] W.P. Porter and others, "Groundwater pesticides: interactive effects of low concentrations of carbamates aldicarb and methamyl and the triazine metribuzin on thyroxine and somatotropin levels in white rats," JOURNAL OF TOXICOLOGY AND ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH Vol. 40, No. 1 (September 1993), pgs. 15-34. And see: W.P. Porter and others, "Toxicant-disease-environment interactions associated with suppression of immune system, growth, and reproduction," SCIENCE Vol. 224, No. 4652 (June 1, 1984), pgs. 1014-1017. [5] Keith Hamm, "What's In the Mix?" SANTA BARBARA [CALIFORNIA] INDEPENDENT April 15, 1999, pg. 21 and following pages. See www.independent.com/007/001/002.html. Thanks to George Rauh for alerting us to this interview. [6] Elizabeth A. Guillette and others, "An Anthropological Approach to the Evaluation of Preschool Children Exposed to Pesticides in Mexico," ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH PERSPECTIVES Vol. 106, No. 6 (June 1998), pgs. 347-353. Descriptor terms: violence; hormones; thyroid hormone; development; aggression; chemicals and behavior; behavior and chemicals; delinquency; studies; mexico; warren p. porter; elizabeth guillette; adhd; attention disorders; hyperactivity; learning disabilities; brain development; emotional stability; ################################################################ NOTICE Environmental Research Foundation provides this electronic version of RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY free of charge even though it costs our organization considerable time and money to produce it. We would like to continue to provide this service free. You could help by making a tax-deductible contribution (anything you can afford, whether $5.00 or $500.00). Please send your tax-deductible contribution to: Environmental Research Foundation, P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403-7036. Please do not send credit card information via E-mail. For further information about making tax-deductible contributions to E.R.F. by credit card please phone us toll free at 1-888-2RACHEL, or at (410) 263-1584, or fax us at (410) 263-8944. --Peter Montague, Editor ################################################################ ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE97BB.D0729000-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 6 15:39:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA28114 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 15:39:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10403; Thu, 6 May 1999 15:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09925 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 15:19:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mroboz (d148.infoserve.net [199.175.157.148]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA15817 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001e01be97f6$449c5e40$949dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: OFF/The HCFR May 99, Part 2 Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 12:24:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 871 -----Original Message----- From: jason freeman To: Michael Roboz Date: Thursday, May 06, 1999 8:49 AM Subject: The HCFR May 99, Part 2 >THE HEMP COMMERCE & FARMING REPORT, Part Two >Volume 1, Issue 1, May 6th 1999 >(c) 1999 AHEM, ARTHUR HANKS. > > >MANITOBA REGIONAL REPORT >Warren Ellis of Prairie Hemp: One grower's thoughts >By Giselle Lussier > >As grain prices are on a steady decline, farmers have no choice but to investigate different ways of diversifying their farms as a way of supplementing their income. Will hemp production be considered a new ray of hope for the future of today's farmers? Warren Ellis, of Ellis Seeds in Wawanesa, is one of Manitoba's commercial hemp farmers who are exploring this option. > >His advice: "Don't grow more than you can afford to lose." So when Ellis took part in forming Prairie Hemp Ltd. in 1998, his strategy was to contract out about 10 - 20 acres each to 40 farmers throughout the province. "Hempola is one of Prairie Hemp's major stockholders and we have a contract of about 500 acres of hemp per year with them," he explained, holding up one of Hempola's products, a bar of hemp soap. > >Feeling that the big market for hemp will lie strongly with organic products, Ellis commented that he imagines hemp could be grown without herbicides - something that he personally would like to see in the future. But in his experience, the organic growers can't get enough fertility in their crop and they aren't getting paid enough to take a yield loss. Ellis reported that in 1998, an organic hemp grower averaged about 200 - 250 lbs. per acre while the conventional growers averaged about 670 lbs. (with some acres not harvested) with a price difference of $0.60 for a conventional grower and $0.80 cents for an organic crop > >Although there were many differences between crops, Ellis commented that the contrasts weren't relative to any specific location or soil type. "There was one guy who had 1600 pounds an acre and his neighbor only had 1,000 and we can't identify why the one was so much better," said Ellis, also commenting that they are still analyzing management techniques that could affect the quality and yields. > >* Costs of Production * > >While a good yield of hemp can bring a big payoff, Ellis reported on the factors that one has to consider before getting into hemp production. "You are dealing with a seeding cost of about $80 per acre and each field has to be tested by the government for THC levels which also costs," he said. It was initially thought that fertilizer costs would be fairly significant, however Ellis commented that the commercial growers have decided to treat hemp in the same way as a high managed wheat. "If you apply too much fertilizer the growth tends to get unwilling to harvest." > >Although hemp is famous for its tall spears that grow so dense it is actually known to repel weeds, the initial planting has to be dealt with very carefully as the seeds are tiny and not very vigorous. "It's a little slow getting out of the ground and if you plant it a shade too deep it won't move too fast, so the initial emergence is to have weed control," explained Ellis. > >Ellis has found that the crops are susceptible to Bertha Army Worms, a number of insects and sclerotinia. "Early influxes of weeds can cause serious problems and there really is nothing that you can spray on them," he explains. While Ellis and his partners do know that hemp doesn't like to sit in pools of water, they aren't sure of how the plant would react in dry conditions. > >Observing and analyzing is an ongoing exercise with any crop and hemp is no exception. Although they are not certain, Ellis' group of producers feels that hemp could be a daylight sensitive crop. If they are correct it would mean that if the crop were planted a little later in the season you might get the plant to flower at a shorter height. "That is very critical as a shorter plant would result in an easier harvest," surmised Ellis. > >* Harvesting * > >One of the biggest problems with hemp is trying to harvest the tall golden reeds that often stand about 13' high. "That is why we suggest that the growers not invest more then they can afford to lose, because if they get in the position where they can't harvest it - that's the best loss, to take the first loss. If you work at it too long, you will lose your combine," he said, reporting that during last year's hemp harvest, a few combines were lost, a few bearings were broken and a few caught on fire. > >There were some producers who experimented with swathing by putting a swather on the front end loader of a tractor and cutting the tops off the hemp plant. "This worked out quite well as then we were only putting through two feet of product through the combine. But the down side is something that we suspect, although we can't really say for sure, we think the swath sucked some moisture out of the plant as the swathed hemp had considerably more dockage and a lot of empty seeds with no meat in them." > >One question hemp producers are asking is: "Were last year's yields average, above average, or below?" After a few more years of commercial hemp production these questions will be answered - at present they can only guess. "We feel that last year's yields were average, but there is no way to be sure until we can compare the yields from year to year," he added. > >"So far it seems like a crop of opposites," he says, explaining that last year the crop seemed to grow against conventional rhythm; first, with a late planting, and secondly, harvest seems to go smoother when the field has a moisture content of about 30%. "This year we are going to shy away from microclimates. Initially we thought growing hemp in a micro climate would work really well, however it worked too well as it grew up to 13' high and was impossible to harvest." > >Ellis and other hemp producers are curious to see how the crop would fair in a fertile sandy soil. "It would be really neat to see what would happen. I've been told by some farmers in this area that sand doesn't dry out. Even during dry years when the moisture drops you can dig down and find moisture. I have a suspicion that if there is moisture four feet below the hemp plant could draw it up. The yields may suffer a little bit, but we don't know that yet." > >* Where are the markets? * > >Ellis's attitude right now is to have some fun with the crop, experiment with it, and analyze its growth by judging what he feels will affect it. As hemp production enters its second commercial season, it still holds a certain mystique and to many it is still considered "the forbidden fruit" arousing a special amount of curiosity amongst producers. > >While Ellis says that there has been a tremendous amount of interest in the crop he commented that the market is still unstable. "We don't know how deep or strong this market is, and we don't know if the prices will drop if we get a huge supply." > >What would Ellis like to see happen in the near future and where has he set his goals? He ponders for only a moment before answering, "A hemp oil processing plant is definitely a goal for the future of Prairie Hemp Ltd., but there will have to be consistency in the market first. At this point what we would like to see is our growers, and maybe a few others, form a cooperative where everyone is equal." > >"The bottom line is, unless hemp develops an apparent value to justify its high price (hemp products are presently very expensive), or unless the price comes down, it could lose its mystique quite quickly," surmised Ellis. The biggest challenge on the production side is the harvesting - if there is a way to overcome this obstacle Ellis feels that while hemp may not be a Cinderella crop such as Canola, its production on a small scale may offer a few farmers a nice comfortable niche and a ray of hope for their future. > >A version of this article was previously published in The Glenboro Gazette and The Brandon Sun. > >******************************************************************** >WORKING IN FOOD OR AGRICULTURE? Wherever you are in Canada, QAC will assemble the resources and funding you need to get your business up and running. >Specializing in small and medium-sized ventures. > >Contact Ron Schnider, President, Quality Assurance Consulting, or Doug Brown, Project Manager at (604) 732-8203, Fax (604) 732-8273 or email at qac@alternatives.com . >******************************************************************** > >NORTHERN ONTARIO GRAIN REPORT >By Ryan Crawford > >A new report by Herb Hinz, An Analysis of the Characteristic of Industrial Hemp Seed Grown in Northern Ontario, looks at data collected over 1998 by Gordon Sheifele, Northern Ontario Research Coordinator for OMAFRA and The University of Guelph. > >The Northern Ontario research project was conducted on 32 plots across the region including sites in Dryden, Thunder Bay, Rainy River, Sudbury and Manitoulin Island. Cultivars covered in the study included Felina 34, Fedrina 74, Secuieni, Irene, Zolotonosha 11 and 13, Fedora 19, and FIN 314. Research such as this in important in determining the viability of foreign cultivars in this under performing agricultural region. > >At each of the locations grain samples were collected from three test plots one square meter in size. Results obtained from the samples were averaged and extrapolated to produce yield values in tonnes per hectare. The study found an average yield of 1.01 tonnes/hectare. Fedrina 74, Felina 34, Fedora 19, Secuieni 1, and Irene had average yields of 1.23, 1.1, 1.02, 1.03 and 0.74 respectfully. Hinz cites previous research by David Marcus in suggesting that an average yield of hemp seed between 0.7 and 1.2 tonne/hectare is an economically viable endeavor. > >Average oil content in this research ranged from 24.97% to 28.85%. Secuieni 1 produced the highest average oil yield at 28.85%. The tendency of Secuieni 1 and Irene to exceed the legal 0.3% THC limit was observed in this study as well. > >The Finnish variety FIN 314 had a average oil content of 26.2%, which is low in comparison to the reports stating this variety contained as much as 37% oil by weight. However, FIN 314 was not planted until early July and received a 60 day growing season whereas most other varieties received 110 to 120 days of growth. > >The Study also looked at the Essential Fatty Acid (EFA) profile of the cultivars, including Linoleic Acid (Omega 6), Linolenic Acid (Omega 3) and Gamma Linoleic Acid. The ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 in nearly all varieties was 3.1 to 1. The highest producer of GLA was FIN 314 at 4.22%. Other varieties ranged between 1.73 to 2.51. The average Protein content of the 8 varieties was 34.44% with an average Fibre content of 29.06%. The moisture content of samples used for the study was 12%, which according to Gordon Sheifele exceeds the standard practice of drying hemp grain to 5% moisture prior to pressing. > >According to the study, the French varieties Felina 34, Fedrina 74 and Fedora 19 and Ukrainian varieties Zolotonosha 11 and 13 all exhibited acceptable yields, as well as good oil content and EFA profiles. The below average performance of FIN 314 in this trial warrants a fresh look with a normal 100 to 120 day growing season. Research in Northern Ontario will continue this year. > >************************************************************* >REACH A WIDE QUALIFIED AUDIENCE THROUGH ADVERTISING IN THE HCFR. >Sponsorship and supporting positions are available. >For more information, please contact Ryan Crawford at Ryan_Crawford@bc.sympatico.ca >or call (604) 708-4432. >************************************************************* > >HEMP SHORTS > >TICKER TAPE - John E. Dvorak (Boston Hemp Co-op and ex-Hemp Magazine) has created an online portfolio tracking the performance of a selection of companies working with industrial agriculture and pharmaceuticals. Companies include the Real Goods Trading Company, Consolidated Growers and Processors, and Kafus Environmental Industries. > >To access CANNABIS HEMPSTOCKS, go to http://quote.yahoo.com/?u&.src= and click on Portfolios. Use "hempstocks" as Yahoo ID, and "hemp" as the password. To have another company added to this portfolio, contact John at boston.hemp@pobox.com. > >R&D MANAGEMENT CHANGE - Ruth Shamai, president of R&D Hemp Inc. has announced that Dr. Dave Hutcheson has left R&D. Dr. Jack Moes, of The Great AgVenture and formerly of Manitoba Agriculture, has agreed to work with R&D to provide production information and assistance to R&D farmers. > >According to Ms. Shamai, the breakup with Hutcheson was friendly and mutually agreeable. R&D Hemp's production is on schedule for the coming season, having expanded to 600 exclusively certified organic and/or native grown acres. > >"We have great relationships with our farmers and with our customers," commented Ms. Shamai. "Our focus on the certified organic crop and our breeding work set us apart from many other companies." > >R&D is hoping to register a new variety for commercial propagation and sale later in 1999, and will continue to breed its proprietary, high-GLA, CanEFA variety. R&D also expects to make several new product announcements before the end of the year. > >Source: R&D Hemp > >KENEX ANNOUNCES NEW WESTERN US BROKER -Pain Court Ontario's Kenex has added Hemptech's John Roulac to their sales team. Roulac will be the Western US sales broker for Kenex's hemp seed products, which include hulled hemp seed and hemp seed oil. Based out of Sebastopol, California, Roulac brings in a considerable knowledge base in hemp seed products, marketing and new product ideas. Kenex also reports that Roulac will provide assistance in the development of new product lines; they have also announced the opening of a new warehouse in Ontario, California. Check out www.hempbrokers.com for more details. > >Source: Kenex, Hemptech > >HEMPWICH BUTTER IS WINNING FANS - Hulled hemp seed is winning fans across North America for its versatility and absence of gritty shells. Hemp nut butter can be used as a delicious substitute on breads, for use in dips and spreads or to add body to soups and sauces. Try this one out: > > 1 1/4 cups hulled hemp seeds > 2 tablespoons hemp oil or olive oil > 1 small clove garlic > 1 teaspoon soy sauce > sea salt and pepper > >Toast the seeds lightly. Once they have cooled, grind one cup of the seeds in a coffee grinder, blender or Champion juicer. Combine the rest of the unground hulled seeds, the ground seeds, oil and pressed garlic in a small bowl, and blend them thoroughly with a fork. Season with soy sauce, salt and pepper. Add more oil for a softer consistency. > >Tastes great on bagels or bread. Be sure to refrigerate the butter in a closed jar. >Source: www.nutiva.com > >THIS JUST IN - Discover Industrial Hemp in Quesnel, BC! All are invited to a Public Meeting on Industrial Hemp to be held in Quesnel on Saturday, May 8th at 2 PM. Free admission and local speakers and specialists; hemp snacks will be served. This meeting is being held during International Forestry Week, and a report will be presented at the Economic Development Summit to be held at 108 Mile House, BC on May 13-15. If you want to attend, contact Mike Doyle at mcaninvan@hotmail.com or fax: 250-747-4377 or 250-002-3611. > >************************************************************ >AHEM - CHOOSE YOUR WORDS CAREFULLY >Writing, Editing and Research Services, Media Outreach, Business-to-Business Communications, and Grant Writing. Contact Arthur Hanks Editing and Media Services, 9098 Windermere St., Vancouver, BC, V5K 4J6. Call (604) 255-4332 or email arthurhanks@hotmail.com . >************************************************************ >Open for Business? >Let the HCFR know. We are interested in profiling new, start-up hemp companies and business initiatives to help you find markets, products, buyers, investors, allies and mentors. Please contact Arthur Hanks, HCFR Editor, with information about your company including your business summary, and contact information (including phone and email, and web address). Please communicate clearly when your business started. >************************************************************* > >NEXT ISSUE: >Will feature a Cross-Canada snapshot, new Canadian ventures, research from New Brunswick and more. Delivery date is June 14th. > > >To subscribe directly to the HCFR, please email jfreeman@ssm.net message line SUBSCRIBE. > >(c) 1999 AHEM, ARTHUR HANKS. NOT TO BE DUPLICATED FOR FINANCIAL OR PERSONAL GAIN. CONTACT US ABOUT REPRODUCTION RIGHTS. > >END OF PART TWO > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 6 17:44:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA01464 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 17:44:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA21913; Thu, 6 May 1999 17:28:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21732 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 17:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (whan-033.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.133]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17644 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 09:30:16 +1200 Message-ID: <004701be9805$faf87d40$85f631ca@oemcomputer> From: "g&y bodle" To: "BD List" Subject: Off:NZ Nazi Health System/Dangers in Soy Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 09:17:50 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0043_01BE986A.7AAA77A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 872 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01BE986A.7AAA77A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some one mentioned a while back under the heading "Nazi Health System in = NZ" about a young boy and his parents being hounded bythge police and = courts here because his parents did not want Liam, there 3yr old son, to = undergo Chemothrapy. they went into hiding to undergo alternative = therapy. They resurfaced on National Television last night with Liam safe and = well and his tumours alomost entirely reduced. He was supposed to be = dead by now according to submissions made by the Health Establishment to = the Family Court when the police hunt began back in January. As it is portrayed as a "victory" over the "Camcer Establishment" it may = not be widely publicised internationally. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01BE986A.7AAA77A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Some one mentioned a while back = under the=20 heading "Nazi Health System in NZ" about a young boy and his = parents=20 being hounded bythge police and courts here because his parents did not = want=20 Liam, there 3yr old son, to undergo Chemothrapy. they went into hiding = to=20 undergo alternative therapy.
They resurfaced on National = Television last=20 night with Liam safe and well and his tumours alomost entirely reduced. = He was=20 supposed to be dead by now according to submissions made by the Health=20 Establishment to the Family Court when the police hunt began back in=20 January.
 
 
As it is portrayed as a "victory" over the = "Camcer Establishment" it may not be widely publicised=20 internationally.
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0043_01BE986A.7AAA77A0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 6 20:13:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA04762 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 20:13:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02789; Thu, 6 May 1999 19:55:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goofy.arcom.com.au (root@main-gw.arcom.senet.com.au [203.56.239.50]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA02729 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 19:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ruicaish (c3-p24.arcom.com.au [203.152.250.153]) by goofy.arcom.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA29544 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 09:29:27 +0930 Message-ID: <004a01be98a6$e6893f60$99fa98cb@ruicaish> From: "Vincent Brown" To: References: <003b01be97f6$7e28baa0$949dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> Subject: Re: Off/ [Fwd: Rachel #648: Pesticides and Aggression] Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 09:30:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 873 Huh? Whats this about? ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Roboz To: Sent: Thursday, 6 May 1999 12:27 Subject: Fw: Off/ [Fwd: Rachel #648: Pesticides and Aggression] > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ferdinand Vondruska > To: daugherty gay ; Eterman, Marjin > ; Gilman Simeon ; Gordon > Eric ; Gotz Max ; Graf Anita > ; Hall Ted ; Heintzmann Patsi > ; Hirschnitz, Michaela ; Hirtz > Urs ; Kalve Voctors ; Kohlbrenner, > Daniel ; Kremer, Kathy ; > Lampson Bjorn ; Lampson Olaf > ; Lang Curtis ; Link > Thomas ; Paakkonen, Jukka & Aira > ; Roboz, Michael ; > Ross Gordon ; Salminen Panu > ; Scheichl Gary - home ; Schily, > Martin ; Schulte-Schroeer Helga > ; Spitzer Peter ; > Toivonen Harri ; Truhponen Tarmo > ; Vogel Othmar ; > Vondruska, Martin ; Vondruska, Mr. Chris > ; Walsh Herb > Date: Monday, May 03, 1999 9:38 PM > Subject: [Fwd: Rachel #648: Pesticides and Aggression] > > > >Regards FV > > > >-- > > > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > > >C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest > >into an > >understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar > >World Forest > >Foundation, a registered charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 6 20:49:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA05210 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 20:49:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05428; Thu, 6 May 1999 20:33:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA05277 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 20:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mroboz (d144.infoserve.net [199.175.157.144]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA03816; Thu, 6 May 1999 17:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002601be9821$bb17e280$909dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Cc: Subject: OFF/ last time lost the attachment!! / Fw: Rachel #648: Pesticides and Aggression Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 17:36:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 874 -----Original Message----- From: rachel@rachel.org To: rachel-weekly@world.std.com Date: Monday, May 03, 1999 3:38 PM Subject: Rachel #648: Pesticides and Aggression >=======================Electronic Edition======================== >. . >. RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY #648 . >. ---April 29, 1999--- . >. HEADLINES: . >. PESTICIDES AND AGGRESSION . >. ========== . >. Environmental Research Foundation . >. P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403 . >. Fax (410) 263-8944; E-mail: erf@rachel.org . >. ========== . >. All back issues are available by E-mail: send E-mail to . >. info@rachel.org with the single word HELP in the message. . >. Back issues are also available from http://www.rachel.org. . >. To start your own free subscription, send E-mail to . >. listserv@rachel.org with the words . >. SUBSCRIBE RACHEL-WEEKLY YOUR NAME in the message. . >================================================================= > > >PESTICIDES AND AGGRESSION > >For the past 25 years, tens of millions of Americans in hundreds >of cities and towns have been drinking tap water that is >contaminated with low levels of insecticides, weed killers, and >artificial fertilizer. They not only drink it, they also bathe >and shower in it, thus inhaling small quantities of farm >chemicals and absorbing them through the skin. Naturally, the >problem is at its worst in agricultural areas of the country. > >The most common contaminants are carbamate insecticides >(aldicarb and others), the triazine herbicides (atrazine and >others) and nitrate nitrogen.[1] For years government scientists >have tested each of these chemicals individually at low levels >in laboratory animals -- searching mainly for signs of cancer -- >and have declared each of them an "acceptable risk" at the >levels typically found in groundwater. > >Now a group of biologists and medical researchers at the >University of Wisconsin in Madison, led by Warren P. Porter, has >completed a 5-year experiment putting mixtures of low levels of >these chemicals into the drinking water of male mice and >carefully measuring the results. They reported recently that >combinations of these chemicals -- at levels similar to those >found in the groundwater of agricultural areas of the U.S. -- >have measurable detrimental effects on the nervous, immune and >endocrine (hormone) systems.[2] Furthermore, they say their >research has direct implications for humans. > >Dr. Porter and his colleagues point out that the nervous system, >the immune system, and the endocrine (hormone) system are all >closely related and in constant communication with each other. >If any one of the three systems is damaged or degraded the other >two may be adversely affected. The Wisconsin researchers >therefore designed their experiments to examine the effects of >agricultural chemicals on each of the three systems >simultaneously. To assess immune system function, they measured >the ability of mice to make antibodies in response to foreign >proteins. To assess endocrine system function, they measured >thyroid hormone levels in the blood. And to assess nervous >system function they measured aggressive behavior in the >presence of intruder mice introduced into the cages. They also >looked for effects on growth by measuring total body weight and >the weight of each animal's spleen. > >The experiments were replicated many times, to make sure the >results were reproducible. They found effects on the endocrine >system (thyroid hormone levels) and the immune system, and >reduced body weight, from mixtures of low levels of aldicarb & >nitrate, atrazine & nitrate, and atrazine, aldicarb & nitrate >together. They observed increased aggression from exposure to >atrazine & nitrate, and from atrazine, aldicarb & nitrate >together. > >The Wisconsin research team wrote, "Of particular signficance in >the collective work of Boyd and others,[3] Porter and others,[4] >and our current study[2] is that THYROID HORMONE CONCENTRATION >CHANGE was consistently a response due to mixtures, but NOT >usually to individual chemicals." [Emphasis in the original]. > >In the five-year experiment, thyroid hormone levels rose or fell >depending upon the mixture of farm chemicals put into the >drinking water. Dr. Porter and his colleagues present evidence >from other studies showing that numerous farm chemicals can >affect the thyroid hormone levels of wildlife and humans. PCBs >and dioxins can have similar effects, they note. Proper levels of >thyroid hormone are essential for brain development of humans >prior to birth. Some, though not all, studies have shown that >attention deficit and/or hyperactivity disorders in children are >linked to changes in the levels of thyroid hormone in the blood. >Children with multiple chemical sensitivity (MCS) have abnormal >thyroid levels. Furthermore, irritability and aggressive behavior >are linked to thyroid hormone levels. > > >Interviewed recently by Keith Hamm of the SANTA BARBARA [CAL.] >INDEPENDENT,[5] Dr. Porter explained, "Earlier work had shown >that thyroid hormone typically changed when exposure to these >pesticides occurred. Thyroid hormone not only affects and >controls your metabolic rate, that is, how fast you burn food, >it also controls your irritability level. For example, Type A >personalities are more assertive, more aggressive, more hyper. >These people tend to have higher levels of thyroid hormone. Type >B personalities--people that are really laid back, really take >things very easily--have lower levels of thyroid hormone. We >expected that changes in thyroid [would] change irritability >levels. This was a concern because there was information that >kids are getting more hyper and [that their] learning abilities >are going down," Dr. Porter said. > >A recent study of 4 and 5 year-old children in Mexico >specifically noted a decrease in mental ability and an increase >in aggressive behavior among children exposed to pesticides.[6] >Elizabeth A. Guillette and colleagues studied two groups of Yaqui >Indian children living in the Yaqui Valley in northern Sonora, >Mexico. One group of children lives in the lowlands dominated by >pesticide-intensive agriculture (45 or more sprayings each year) >and the other group lives in the nearby upland foothills where >their parents make a living by ranching without the use of >pesticides. The pesticide-exposed children had far less physical >endurance in a test to see how long they could keep jumping up >and down; they had inferior hand-eye coordination; and they >could not draw a simple stick figure of a human being, which the >upland children could readily do. > >Notably, in the Guillette study we find this description of the >behavior of pesticide-exposed children: "Some valley children >were observed hitting their siblings when they passed by, and >they became easily upset or angry with a minor corrective >comment by a parent. These aggressive behaviors were not noted >in the [pesticide-free] foothills [children]." > >The human body can defend itself against poisons to some degree, >but Dr. Porter and his colleagues describe ways in which >low-level mixtures of pesticides and fertilizer might get past >the body's defenses: > >The body is prepared to protect itself against poisons taken by >mouth. The liver begins to produce enzymes that try to break >down fat-soluble chemicals. However, if a poison enters through >the lungs or the skin, the body does not offer the same kind of >defenses. Furthermore, the body's ability to put up defenses may >be compromised by taking certain medications (e.g., >antibiotics), or by receiving "pulses" of toxins rather than a >steady dose. > >Receiving "pulses" of poisons would be normal in the case of >agricultural poisons which are sprayed onto crops only at >certain times of the year. During those periods, people living >near sprayed fields might get a sudden dose of poison via their >lungs, their skin and their drinking water. Dr. Porter describes >such a situation this way: > >"Imagine [that] you're standing in a boxing ring and a boxer >jumps in with you, and he walks toward you smiling with his hand >outstretched. And you reach out to shake his hand and he smacks >you in the stomach as hard as he can. And when you bring your >arms up to defend yourself, he backs away. Finally you get tired >of holding your defenses up and you drop them and he rushes in >and smacks you again. That's the physical equivalent to a 'pulse >dose,' which is normally what we tend to get exposed to. > >"The defenses we have take a while to induce, just like it takes >a while to bring your arms up. It takes anywhere from a half a >day to five days to induce those [defenses] to appropriate >levels. If you're in a particular stage of your hormone cycle or >you're taking some antibiotics, it can compromise your ability >to defend yourself even if you did have enough time to induce >your defenses. If you've got pulse doses coming in under your >defenses or coming in faster than you can bring your defenses up >then you've got a situation where you're totally vulnerable. > >"If you've got a pregnant mom, for example, in day 20 when the >fetus's neural tube is closing and she gets an exposure, she >hasn't had enough time to induce her defenses. Her thyroid level >goes up or goes down, the hormone crosses the placenta and can >permanently alter the developmental pattern of the fetus's >brain. And then the pulse dose is gone, you have no detection, >mom doesn't even know she's pregnant, and you may have an >offspring that is neurologically compromised and wonder, 'How >did this happen?'" > >In the interview with Keith Hamm, Dr. Porter expressed concern >for the overall effect of pesticides on the nation's children: > >Hamm: "Are pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizer used more or >less these days than fifty years ago and have the toxicities >changed?" > >Porter: "The usage has continued to climb. There's an enormous >amount of these [chemicals being used] right now. There was a >recent study that examined the urine of people across the >country, [asking] if people are being exposed. On average, >anywhere from five to seven compounds were being excreted. >There's a great deal of expo- sure to the general populace. > >"And yes, the toxicities have definitely changed. [Some >toxicities are now measured] in the parts-per-trillion range. I >would point out that fetuses are sensitive to chemicals in the >parts per quadrillion range." > >Hamm: "I would assume that most people in this country are >eating conventionally grown food. If that's the case, wouldn't >the problems be more apparent? Why are there not more >hyperaggressive dim-witted people with poor immune systems?" > >Porter: "If we really looked carefully at what's been happening >in this county, you might find exactly that happening." > >* * * > >Because of recent violence in small cities and towns (such as >Littleton, Colorado, Laramie, Wyoming, and Jasper, Texas), this >is a time when Americans are searching for the causes of violence >in their society. Some are blaming a decline in religious >upbringing. Others are blaming households with the parents >working and no one minding the kids. Some say the cause is >violent movies, violent TV and extremist internet sites, combined >with the ready availability of cheap guns. Still others point to >a government that has often sanctioned the violence of "gunboat >diplomacy" to open foreign markets for U.S. corporations. > >No one seems to be asking whether pesticides, fertilizers and >toxic metals [see REHW #529, #551] are affecting our young >people's mental capacity, emotional balance, and social >adjustment. From the work of Warren Porter, Elizabeth Guillette >and others, it is apparent that these are valid questions. > > --Peter Montague > (National Writers Union, UAW Local 1981/AFL-CIO) > >========== >[1] Jack E. Barbash and Elizabeth A. Resek, PESTICIDES IN GROUND >WATER (Chelsea, Michigan: Ann Arbor Press, 1996); Richard Wiles >and others, TAP WATER BLUES (Washington, D.C.: Environmental >Working Group, 1994); Brian A. Cohen and Richard Wiles, TOUGH TO >SWALLOW (Washington, D.C.: Environmental Working Group, 1997); >Environmental Working Group, POURING IT ON; NITRATE >CONTAMINATION OF DRINKING WATER (Washington, D.C.: Environmental >Working Group, 1996). See www.ewg.org. And: Gina M. Solomon and >Lawrie Mott, TROUBLE ON THE FARM; GROWING UP WITH PESTICIDES IN >AGRICULTURAL COMMUNITIES (New York: Natural Resources Defense >Council, October, 1998). > >[2] Warren P. Porter, James W. Jaeger and Ian H. Carlson, >"Endocrine, immune and behavioral effects of aldicarb >(carbamate), atrazine (triazine) and nitrate (fertilizer) >mixtures at groundwater concentrations," TOXICOLOGY AND >INDUSTRIAL HEALTH Vol. 15, Nos. 1 and 2 (1999), pgs. 133-150. > >[3] C.A. Boyd, M.H. Weiler and W.P. Porter, "Behavioral and >neurochemical changes associated with chronic exposure to >low-level concentration of pesticide mixtures," JOURNAL OF >TOXICOLOGY AND ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH Vol. 30, No. 3 (July 1990), >pgs. 209-221. > >[4] W.P. Porter and others, "Groundwater pesticides: interactive >effects of low concentrations of carbamates aldicarb and >methamyl and the triazine metribuzin on thyroxine and >somatotropin levels in white rats," JOURNAL OF TOXICOLOGY AND >ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH Vol. 40, No. 1 (September 1993), pgs. >15-34. And see: W.P. Porter and others, >"Toxicant-disease-environment interactions associated with >suppression of immune system, growth, and reproduction," SCIENCE >Vol. 224, No. 4652 (June 1, 1984), pgs. 1014-1017. > >[5] Keith Hamm, "What's In the Mix?" SANTA BARBARA [CALIFORNIA] >INDEPENDENT April 15, 1999, pg. 21 and following pages. See >www.independent.com/007/001/002.html. Thanks to George Rauh for >alerting us to this interview. > >[6] Elizabeth A. Guillette and others, "An Anthropological >Approach to the Evaluation of Preschool Children Exposed to >Pesticides in Mexico," ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH PERSPECTIVES Vol. >106, No. 6 (June 1998), pgs. 347-353. > >Descriptor terms: violence; hormones; thyroid hormone; >development; aggression; chemicals and behavior; behavior and >chemicals; delinquency; studies; mexico; warren p. porter; >elizabeth guillette; adhd; attention disorders; hyperactivity; >learning disabilities; brain development; emotional stability; > > >################################################################ > NOTICE >Environmental Research Foundation provides this electronic >version of RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY free of charge >even though it costs our organization considerable time and money >to produce it. We would like to continue to provide this service >free. You could help by making a tax-deductible contribution >(anything you can afford, whether $5.00 or $500.00). Please send >your tax-deductible contribution to: Environmental Research >Foundation, P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403-7036. Please do >not send credit card information via E-mail. For further >information about making tax-deductible contributions to E.R.F. >by credit card please phone us toll free at 1-888-2RACHEL, or at >(410) 263-1584, or fax us at (410) 263-8944. > --Peter Montague, Editor >################################################################ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 6 20:52:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA05260 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 20:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05617; Thu, 6 May 1999 20:36:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from news1.infoave.net (news1.InfoAve.Net [165.166.15.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05528 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 20:35:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by news1.infoave.net; id AA19415; Thu, 6 May 1999 20:40:24 -0400 Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 20:40:24 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990506204141.2697e982@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: OFF: Resurrection & BD Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 875 Dear Manfred, Sorry for the long delay in replying. It's a very busy time of year and the issue you focus on could hardly be more profound. Please bear in mind that the events leading up to the original Easter were always referred to by Rudolf Steiner as the "Mystery of Golgotha," a mystery that he said humanity would come to understand and appreciate only gradually over millennia. My understanding is certainly incomplete, but I find that it grows best when pondering a sincere question. So, thank you very much for your reply and your question. At 06:35 PM 4/17/99 -0400, manfred palmer wrote: >Dear Malcom : > >Not being as familiar with the Steiner lectures as you, i really appreciate >your sequential description of the forces/elements at work in the world >where we live. > >If i may touch on a pivotal point (for me): Accepting the premise that the >"resurrection" of a physical body was/is a possibility for any persons >qualified- through their sum total of living Substance-, and that that >precedent was established for anyone living after the one called Jesu, i >nevertheless have to ask how you understand this to be possible if in fact >Jesu's body actually "died "--- as in -- the silver cord being loosed, or >the golden bowl broken? In my perception/belief, either of these would >preclude the ongoing process of resurrection.... requiring a viable >connection through which to continue to work its wonders. >In other words, did His individual body die? Or is this "die" just the >common wordusage in order not to ruffle anyone's accepted >religious/spiritual precepts which makes him so special that "we, mere >mortals", could only blasphemously entertain such identity? >I submit, as others do, that it did not quite actually die... and that this >"fact" makes it possible for anyone to participate in the process which was >thereby initiated for this current cycle. >(Otherwise the statements attributed to him : "follow me", "do as I do", >"and greater works shall ye do", "and I, if I be lift up, shall draw all >........" would be relatively hopeless/meaningless in our experience on >earth) > >If you agree with the spirit of this distinction, could you clothe this >premise in your favorite words, incorporating your description of the forces >at work in this (ongoing) collective-Body event? ..especially as it relates >to our valid work with the preps and principles in these turbulent times. >sincerely........ manfred palmer Well, I may be misunderstanding you, but it seems that if what you are suggesting here were true, then the Resurrection should really be regarded as a kind of Grand Deception. Of course, if one is open-minded, one shouldn't rule this out, but I assure you that Steiner did not regard Jesus's death as being merely a three-day "out of body experience," i.e., one in which the silver cord is not broken. So, how _did_ Steiner regard the Resurrection, and how is this related to biodynamics? I will try to answer this briefly as best I can. Steiner does not use the terminology of Ecclesiastes (silver cord, golden bowl, etc.), but he does say that in the pre-Christian centers of initiation the hierophant (presiding priest) put the pupil to be initiated into a comatose or lethargic condition where the etheric body was almost completely separated from the physical body so that with the death of the earthly consciousness (the lower self) spiritual illumination could occur (the birth of higher self). The "raising of Lazarus" was also such an initiation, only here the initiation was not done in a secret mystery center but in public (before "the people standing round," Jn 11:42). To the Jewish priests, however, this represented a blatant betrayal of their mysteries and this was the primary reason that they imposed the death penalty on Jesus. (According to Steiner, however, what the priests did not understand was that the "higher self" that they had always found through their inward path of initiation, was now literally embodied in the person of Jesus. Hence his public raising of Lazarus was not a betrayal but the symbol of a new reality.) However , in order to complete the process of making the gifts of the "higher self" fully public, i.e., potentially accessible to _every_ human being, not just to a few initiates, Jesus had to undergo his own real, historical death and resurrection. Everything in the ancient mysteries that was merely symbol or private soul experience, Jesus underwent as a historical reality. Because of this, he was the vehicle through which a wholly new impulse entered into the outer, physical evolution of the earth and humanity. As Steiner describes it, this "impulse" was in fact the presence of the Spirit of the Sun, the spirit of the whole solar system, contracting and involuting to the earthly seed point of death and then, from within, expanding, re-enlivening and resurrecting the physical body of Jesus and ultimately the physical body of the whole earth. Through the Sacrifice on the hill of Golgotha, Christ brought the power of the kingdom of heaven (represented outwardly by the sun) down to fertilize the earth. Also St. Paul uses the analogy of a seed to describe these events: But you may ask, how are the dead raised? In what kind of body? How foolish! The seed you sow does not come to life unless it has first died; and what you sow is not the body that shall be, but a naked grain, perhaps of wheat, or of some other kind; ... What is sown in the earth as a perishable thing is raised imperishable. Sown in humiliation, it is raised in glory; sown in weakness, it is raised in power; sown as an animal body, it is raised as a spiritual body. If there is such a thing as an animal body, there is also a spiritual body. It is in this sense that Scripture says, 'The first man, Adam, became an animate being', whereas the last Adam has become a life-giving spirit. Observe, the spiritual does not come first; the animal body comes first, and then the spiritual. The first man was made 'of the dust of the earth': the second man is from heaven. (I Cor. 15:35-37, 42-47) The dead seed is resurrected through receiving a new life-body, not from its parent, but from the source of all life. "Adam" is the parent of all the hereditary streams; as these become exhausted and are in danger of expiring, a new stream of "spiritual heredity" is inaugurated by the "last Adam," by Christ, the Spirit of the Sun, who dwelt in the body of the man Jesus. The Living Spirit of the Cosmos sacrifices its life so that each part of the whole may acquire its own eternal life within the whole. As the sun shines on all human beings on earth, so does the Resurrection have significance for all human beings, whether they are interested in Christ or not. The Solar Life that entered the earth at Golgotha renewed the life and the form of the stream of physical human heredity. In so doing, it also preserved the possibility of clear human self-consciousness, for this consciousness depends on a healthy physical body. "At the time when the Events of Palestine took place, the human race on earth had reached a stage where the decadence of the physical body was at its peak, and where, because of this, the whole evolution of humanity was threatened with the danger that the Ego-consciousness--the specific achievement of earth-evolution--would be lost." (Steiner, From Jesus to Christ, lec. 7, Oct. 11, 1911) Jesus averted the danger to the human physical body and thereby ensured the basis for human ego-consciousness and human freedom. His Deed did not, however, ensure the immortality of the human soul--the continuity of ego-consciousness after the death of the physical body. His Deed merely made this a _possibility_. Whether it becomes a reality for any given soul, depends on the personal activity of that soul, on its faithful effort to consciously understand the Deed of Christ Jesus. Through this understanding, the Christ Spirit (or the higher self) can come to birth within the individual soul and thus sustain its consciousness when it is separated from the body. This gift of understanding--and hence of community in Christ--is brought by the Holy Spirit, as it did when it descended upon Mary and the Apostles fifty days after the Resurrection during the festival of Pentecost (Whitsun). (See Steiner's lectures of June 7, 1908, and May 7, 1923, in The Festivals and their Meaning.) The biodynamic movement was inaugurated during the Whitsun season (the first lecture of the Agriculture Course was given the day before Whitsunday 1924), and I believe that also the content of this Course is intimately connected with this festival. As mentioned in previous posts, the earth is dying and is in need of redemption. I do believe that the use of the biodynamic preparations has an important role in redeeming the body of the earth, but the soul of the earth, and the souls of all the individual species on earth, are also in need of redemption and I believe that this can happen only to the degree that we truly _understand_ the biodynamics that we practice and the kingdoms of nature that we work with. This goal is implicit, of course, in the Agriculture Course, but because the Course is so difficult, many people are content simply to practice biodynamics without attempting to understand its principles. This is not to be disparaged; it is a necessary first step. But I don't think the biodynamic ideal of a self-contained "agricultural individuality" can be attained in this way. Such an "individuality" can come to birth, I believe, only through a farmer's conscious understanding. To be sure, Steiner does not speak as bluntly and crudely as I have, but I think I have represented fairly accurately what lies between his words. Whether you find Steiner's perspective convincing is another matter altogether, but I cannot help reminding you of St. Paul's words: "If there be no Resurrection, then Christ was not raised; and if Christ was not raised, then our gospel is null and void, and so is your faith" (1 Cor. 15:13-14). In any case, understanding the Resurrection is no simple task, but as we approach Whitsun on May 23 of this year, it is well worth dwelling on this Mystery. Sincerely yours, Malcolm Ian Gardner From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 7 11:17:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17478 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 11:17:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18419; Fri, 7 May 1999 10:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18096 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 10:54:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mroboz (d143.infoserve.net [199.175.157.143]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA04437; Fri, 7 May 1999 08:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000801be989a$7702a480$8f9dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Cc: "Ferdy Vondruska" Subject: OFF/ Re: GEN5-6 Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 08:00:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 876 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Friday, May 07, 1999 7:58 AM Subject: GEN5-6 >BIOTECH BATTLE GROWING IN CANADA >Although the first genetically engineered vegetable was marketed five >years ago, the debate over the safety of these foods is only now taking >off. >FULL STORY: >http://newsworld.cbc.ca/cgi-bin/go.pl?1999/05/04/biotecha990504 > >BIOTECH PUSH CONCERNS SENATORS >The biotech company Monsanto is facing a tough audience in its appeal of >the Senate's refusal to approve bovine growth hormone for use in Canada's >dairy industry. >FULL STORY: >http://newsworld.cbc.ca/cgi-bin/go.pl?1999/05/04/biotech990504 >(full story follows at end) > >OTTAWA MUM ON RELATIONSHIP WITH BIOTECH FIRM >Agriculture Canada has refused to release information about its >commercial relationship with a biotech company, over the insistence of a >senator studying food safety. >FULL STORY: >http://newsworld.cbc.ca/cgi-bin/go.pl?1999/05/06/biotech990506 > >...... >GENETICALLY-ALTERED FOODS COULD SPARK TRADE WAR >In Europe, the market for genetically modified foods is rapidly >disappearing. There are now eight major food chains that say they will >no longer stock genetically modified food. >FULL STORY: >http://newsworld.cbc.ca/cgi-bin/go.pl?1999/05/05/genefood990505 > >=======================Electronic Edition======================== >. . >. RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY #649 . >. ---May 6, 1999--- . >. HEADLINES: . >. BIOTECH: THE PENDULUM SWINGS BACK . >. ========== . >. To start your own free subscription, send E-mail to . >. listserv@rachel.org with the words . >. SUBSCRIBE RACHEL-WEEKLY YOUR NAME in the message. . >================================================================= > > >BIOTECH: THE PENDULUM SWINGS BACK > >In recent months, opposition to genetically modified (GM) foods has >exploded in both Europe and Asia.[1] A powerful consumer/farmer backlash >has spread across Europe and the Indian subcontinent, raising eyebrows even >in the somnolent U.S. > >** In April, the seven largest grocery chains in six European countries >made a public commitment to go "GM free" and now they are lining up >long-term contracts with growers who can provide GM-free corn, potatoes, >soybeans and wheat. > >** The Supreme Court of India has upheld a ban on the testing of GM crops >even as activists are torching fields suspected of harboring GM plants. > >** The third-largest U.S. corn processor, A.E. Staley Co. of Decatur, >Illinois, has announced that in 1999 it will refuse to accept genetically >modified corn varieties that have not been approved by the European Union. >Europeans create a huge market for U.S. crops and the European backlash >forces U.S. farmers to think twice about planting GM seeds. > >The bellwether event was the announcement last month by seven European >supermarket chains that they intend to jointly patronize growers who can >deliver food that is 100% free of genetically modified (GM) organisms.[2] >Tesco, Safeway, Sainsbury's, Iceland, Marks & Spencer, the Co-op, and >Waitrose grocery chains make up the consortium. Last week Unilever, the >huge transnational (and aggressive supporter of GM foods), announced it was >throwing in the towel and joining the GM-free consortium. One day after >Unilever capitulated, the Swiss firm Nestle made the same commitment. The >following day Cadbury-Schweppes joined the ranks of the GM-free. It was a >complete and unexpected rout for the genetic engineering industry. > >According to the London INDEPENDENT, the only major players still >supporting GM foods in England are Monsanto Corporation and the Blair >government. Just a few months ago, British Prime Minister Tony Blair had >told members of parliament that opposition to GM foods would be "a flash in >the pan." Now popular support for the Blair government itself has dwindled >as opposition to GM foods has swelled. In his last election, Mr. Blair was >supported financially by Monsanto, the leading proponent of genetically >modified crops (see REHW #637, #638, and #639). > >Several factors seem to be at work in Europe: > >1) Older people can still remember Nazi eugenics experiments -- Hitler's >plan to create a "super race" by genetic selection. As a result, any >genetic manipulation of living organisms to produce "super organisms" is >suspect. > >2) The recent "Mad Cow Disease" scare in England and France -- which has >killed several dozen people so far and was brought on by the unnatural >practice of feeding cows to cows -- has seriously undermined government >credibility and has made Europeans wary of all unnatural farming practices. > >3) Many Europeans -- as distinct from many Americans -- care about the >taste and nutritional quality of their food and drink. Many Americans seem >happy to subsist on french fried potatoes and iceberg lettuce accompanied >by huge portions of low-grade, fat-laden beef. Many Europeans consider such >fare barbaric. > >4) On February 12 of this year, the first tentative evidence of health >damage from GM foods emerged. Beginning in 1996, Dr. Arpad Pusztai of the >Rowett Research Institute in Aberdeen, Scotland had been feeding >genetically modified potatoes to rats and observing stunted growth and >damaged immune systems, including damage to several major organs (kidney, >spleen, thymus and stomach). Dr. Pusztai was a senior scientist at the >Rowett Institute, having conducted research there for 35 years, during >which time he published 270 scientific papers. > >In January, 1998 and again in April, 1998, Dr. Pusztai received permission >from Philip James, the director of the Rowett Institute, to speak on >British television. Although he is not categorically opposed to genetic >engineering, in his April TV appearance, Dr. Pusztai said he would not eat >genetically modified foods himself and he said it was "very, very unfair to >use our fellow citizens as guinea pigs." > >Proponents of genetically modified foods protested loudly against this >expression of informed opinion. On the first day of the controversy, Philip >James defended Dr. Pusztai's right to speak his mind, but on the second day >Mr. James suspended Dr. Pusztai, condemned his research, made him sign a >gag order, and forced him to retire. > >An audit report by the Rowett Institute in August, 1998, vindicated Dr. >Pusztai's research methods. At that point Dr. Pusztai was once again given >access to his own research data and he vigorously reconfirmed his original >conclusions. Dr. Pusztai's studies have not yet been published, so details >remain unknown. > >The "Pusztai affair" lay dormant until February 12th of this year when a >group of 20 scientists from 13 countries published a manifesto demanding >the reinstatement of Dr. Pusztai and expressing support for his tentative >conclusions. > >Only later was it discovered that the Rowett Institute is partly funded by >Monsanto. > >The "Pusztai affair" lit a fire of public outrage that has since grown into >a raging conflagration. > >For its part, Monsanto has admitted that no one knows -- or can know -- >what will happen when genetically modified organisms are put directly into >the human food chain and are released into the natural environment, as is >the case with genetically modified crops. Robert Shapiro, the chief >executive officer of Monsanto, said October 28, 1998, "We don't seek >controversy, but obviously it has been thrust on us. It is a direct >consequence of a role we have chosen. And it is a role which we can blame >only ourselves for.... we realize that with any new and powerful technology >with unknown, and to some degree unknowable -- by definition -- effects, >then there necessarily will be an appropriate level at least, and maybe >even more than that, of public debate and public interest."[3] > >It is clear that Monsanto's best-laid plans are coming unraveled. In the >mid-1980s Monsanto convinced the U.S. government to agree that genetic >engineering would not be subject to any new regulations, on the theory that >a genetically modified potato is nothing more than a potato. Monsanto >contributes bountifully to presidential candidates of both parties, and to >key members of Congress who sit on food safety committees. Not >surprisingly, the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), the Food and Drug >Administration (FDA) and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) >have taken a "hand off" approach to the introduction of this powerful new >technology whose consequences are unknown and unknowable. And President >Clinton -- who has been amply rewarded by Monsanto at election time -- has >named Monsanto's Shapiro a "special trade representative" of the U.S. In >sum, the U.S. federal government is forcefully aiding Monsanto as the >corporation prepares to conduct a large-scale, uncontrolled experiment on >the general public here and abroad. > >A key part of the Monsanto strategy was to mix genetically modified foods >with traditional foods, and keep them all unlabeled so that no one would >know what they were eating. By the time anyone figured out that they were >eating "Frankenstein food" -- as it is now known in Europe -- it would be a >done deal. > >Europeans are now hell-bent on reversing this mixture. As a spokesperson >for the Tesco chain of supermarkets in England said recently, "We will >remove GM ingredients where we can and label where we can't. In the short >and medium term I expect the number of products containing GM ingredients >to decline steadily, quite possibly to zero." And Fernanda Fau, a >spokesperson for Eurocommerce, the association of European food retail >chains said, "...the principle that segregation of GM ingredients is >possible has now finally been accepted. We first lobbied for this two years >ago and were told it was impossible." > >With GM foods identified, labeled and segregated, it will be possible for >consumers to exercise choice in the grocery store. Then the future of >genetically modified foods will be imperiled by the marketplace. Robert >Shapiro has bet the entire future of the Monsanto corporation on unknown >and unknowable GM foods, so informed choice by consumers is the company's >worst nightmare. > >Monsanto's plans have gone awry in the Third World, too. Monsanto planned >to introduce its genetically modified seeds accompanied by its patented >"technology protection system" which makes the seeds from this year's crop >sterile. Critics call Monsanto's seed sterilizing technology "terminator" >and "suicide seeds." Wherever suicide seed technology is adopted, farmers >will have to go back to Monsanto year after year to buy a new ration of >genetically modified seeds. > >"By peddling suicide seeds, the biotechnology multinationals will lock the >world's poorest farmers into a new form of genetic serfdom," says Emma Must >of the World Development Movement. "Currently 80 per cent of crops in >developing countries are grown using farm-saved seed. Being unable to save >seeds from sterile crops could mean the difference between surviving and >going under," she says. "More precisely," says Canadian journalist Gwynne >Dyer, "it would speed the consolidation of small farms into the hands of >those with the money to engage in industrialized agribusiness -- which >generally means higher profits but less employment and lower yields per >[unit of land]."[4] > >In February in Cartagena, Colombia diplomats from 175 countries met to >hammer out a "biosafety protocol" to control the flow of genetically >modified organisms across international borders. The U.S. and Canada >favored a weak treaty that would not allow any country to prevent the >import and release of genetically modified organisms merely to shelter its >population from the socio-economic impact of industrialized, >capital-intensive forms of farming, or merely on health or environmental >grounds. > >The "other side" at Cartagena favored a strong treaty that gives countries >the right to say no to GM organisms, requires a full study of the effects >of GM foods on farmers' livelihoods, as well as health and environmental >impacts, and makes biotech companies responsible for the legal and >financial consequences if something goes wrong. > >The Third World fought Monsanto and the U.S. government to a draw in >Cartagena and no biosafety protocol was adopted. But the whole process >helped the Third World figure out where it stands on these issues, and this >kind of informed, thoughtful deliberation bodes ill for Monsanto's plan for >domination of global food supplies. > >As Canadian writer Gwynne Dyer sums it up, "The strategy for the high-speed >introduction [of genetically modified foods] throughout the world is >shaping up as one of the great public-relations disasters of all time. >Public suspicion outside North America is reaching crippling proportions, >and the reason is not at all mysterious. It is because the biotech firms >literally tried to shove the stuff down peoples' throats without giving >them either choice or information."[4] > --Peter Montague > (National Writers Union, UAW Local 1981/AFL-CIO) > >========== >[1] Unless otherwise noted, all of the information in this edition of >Rachel's was taken from press reports posted on the listserv >biotech-l@cornell.edu. To subscribe to biotech-l send an E-mail message to >listproc@cornell.edu; in the body of the message put the words "sub >biotech-l Your Name" without quotation marks. > >[2] Paul Waugh, "Brit. Stores Tesco and Unilever Ban Genetically >Manipulated Products," THE INDEPENDENT (London, England), April 28, 1999, >page unknown. > >[3] Shapiro quoted in MONSANTO MONITOR, introductory issue (January 1999), >pg. 7. MONSANTO MONITOR is published monthly by A Seed Europe, P.O. Box >92066, 1090 AB Amsterdam, Netherlands. Tel. +31-20-468-2616; fax: >+31-20-468-2275. Http://www.antenna.nl/aseed . Email: >biotech@aseed.antenna.nl. > >[4] Gwynne Dyer, "World View, Biotechnology," [Toronto] GLOBE AND MAIL >February 20, 1999, page unknown. > >Descriptor terms: genetic engineering; genetically modified organisms; >agriculture; farming; food safety; monsanto; arpad pusztai; rowett >institute; biotech; > >################################################# >NOTICE Environmental Research Foundation provides this electronic version >of RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY free of charge. You could help by >making a tax-deductible contribution. Please send your tax-deductible >contribution to: Environmental Research Foundation, P.O. Box 5036, >Annapolis, MD 21403-7036. For further information please phone us toll >free at 1-888-2RACHEL, or at (410) 263-1584. > --Peter Montague, Editor >################################################## > >BBC ON-Line >2) Europe reviews milk drug ban The artificial hormone >increases milk yields By Environment Correspondent and presenter >of BBC Radio Four's Costing the Earth, Alex Kirby > > It has an eerie echo of BSE, the initials which now mean mad cow disease. >But BST is not an illness. It is a drug. > > It is an artificial hormone, a copy of one that occurs in nature. And just >as natural bovine somatotropin, to give it its full name, promotes >lactation, so artificial BST does the same. > > Cows injected with BST produce 10%, sometimes even 15% more milk than they >would do otherwise. But there is a downside. > > Painful infection BST causes increased health problems in animals >injected with it. They include higher infertility rates, more mastitis - a >painful infection of the teat - and a much higher incidence of lameness. > > Despite that, the drug has been cleared for use in the United States, >where between a quarter and a third of all dairy cows are thought to be >injected with it. > > Milk from them and from non-BST animals is mixed together haphazardly, and >there is no way of knowing whether dairy products in the US - or exported >from it - contain BST milk. > > Five-year ban > > The European Commission imposed a five-year ban on the sale and use of BST >in 1994, on what it called socio-economic grounds. That ban is now under >review. > > Veterinary surgeons in both Britain and Canada say that BST should remain >banned to protect animal welfare. The Canadian Government agreed that the >drug presented an unacceptable threat to the safety of dairy cows. > > But there are also concerns over possible implications for human health. >One centres on the increased use of antibiotics to treat the increased >disease that BST causes, and the risk that they could find their way to >humans. > > Cancer link > > Another worry is the fact that the milk of cattle injected with BST >contains up to five times more of a substance called IGF-1, insulin-like >growth factor one, than normal milk. > > IGF-1 has been linked with the development of some cancers of the breast, >colon and prostate. > > Professor Donald Broom, of Cambridge university, is one of a team of >senior vets advising Brussels on BST. > > He told the BBC that "the IGF-1 increase could possibly lead to a very >small increase in the occurrence of some cancers in humans - a very small >risk, but a real risk". > > Dr David Challacombe, a consultant paediatrician in Somerset, says these >higher levels could over a long period help to trigger the growth of >malignant tumours. > > Clean bill of health BST does have its supporters. One influential group >that has given it a clean bill of health is JECFA, the Joint Expert >Committee on Food Additives. > > JECFA's members are appointed by and answerable to two United Nations >agencies, the World Health Organisation and the Food and Agriculture >Organisation. > > The drug's critics say the longest examination of its possible >toxicological effects, a 90-day study involving thirty rats, showed >significant impacts on the animals. > > The US Food and Drug Administration did approve BST for use, but says it >did not consider the rat study in reaching its decision. > > But the chairman of JECFA, Professor Jock MacLean of Swinburne University >of Technology in Melbourne, says his committee did consider the study. > > Insignificant role > > He points out that the levels of IGF-1 present in milk from BSE cows are >only a minute fraction of the amount produced naturally by the human body, >which led JECFA to conclude that it plays no significant role. > > However, a Japanese study suggests that IGF-1 from BST milk persists in >the digestive tract long enough to pose a far greater risk than the natural >version. > > The European jury is still out on BST. But it has heard evidence to show >that there is cause for concern. > >....... > >CBC News Online >Biotech push concerns senators >WebPosted Tue May 4 08:24:07 1999 > >OTTAWA - The biotech company Monsanto is facing a tough audience in its >appeal of the Senate's refusal to approve bovine growth hormone for use in >Canada's dairy industry. In hearings Monday, senators wanted to know about >evidence that suggests the company was trying to influence the >international science committee that studied the drug. With the push toward >increased global trade, these international committees are becoming more >important. > >If, for instance they rule that a product such as the bovine growth hormone >is safe, then it would be harder for the Canadian government to keep the >product off the market. That's why the senators were concerned about a memo >that suggest Monsanto may have tried to influence these committees. > >The memo hints that Monsanto was trying to get Len Ritter, a former Health >Canada scientist, reappointed to the international committee that ruled the >bovine growth hormone is safe. > >They were also concerned about evidence that shows Monsanto received >confidential documents headed for that very same international committee. >The documents contained the presentation of an international consumers' >group opposed to the growth hormone. Senator Mira Spivak called the >situation "morally reprehensible, not to mention not entirely Kosher." > >Ray Mowling, president of Monsanto Canada, says his company plays by the rules. > >My experience with these international groups is that they are highly >regarded bodies that have scientists on them from around the world; the >inference that we could influence that process to me is ludicrous," Mowling >said. > >...... > >Eastern Daily Press (EDP) 6/5/99 > >AGRICULTURE: Big fall in Norfolk test sites > >Farmers pull out of GM crop trials > >"It must be confined to the laboratory." Jonathan Matthews, NGIN spokesman > >By Chris Bishop > >Genetically modified food firms are facing a crisis of confidence as >Norfolk's farmers turn their backs on them. > >Half the farmers who have agreed to take part in trials have now pulled >out, it was revealed last night. > >Government figures show the number of test sites in Norfolk alone fell >>from 44 in 1998 to just 14 this year. > >Fears over the safety of GM crops were the main reason cited by former GM >farmers replying to a survey carried out by Norfolk Genetic Information >Network. > > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic/geindex.html >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 for 12 months, payable to "BanGEF" and mailed to the above >address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 7 11:54:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18915 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 11:54:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21979; Fri, 7 May 1999 11:39:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21943 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 11:39:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.5.50]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Fri, 7 May 1999 16:45:19 +0100 Message-ID: <37330B00.1368@cwcom.net> Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:47:12 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Rachel's Weekly Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 877 Well, the Environmental Research Foundation sure got a lot of publicity in today's postings. In 15 BDNow! messages, I received three copies of last week's "Pesticides and Aggression" and two of "Biotech: The Pendulum Swings Back", not to mention the direct posting from the ERF. I'm glad that I've got a fast modem and an efficient ISP. Tony N-S From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 7 12:59:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20595 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 12:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26850; Fri, 7 May 1999 12:43:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26678 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 12:41:38 -0400 (EDT) From: OrgAgCons@aol.com Received: from OrgAgCons@aol.com (259) by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id 6IQAa27691; Fri, 7 May 1999 12:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1aa242fa.24647235@aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 12:43:33 EDT Subject: Fwd: Unsubscribe To: bd-l@biodynamics.com CC: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_1aa242fa.24647235_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 878 --part1_1aa242fa.24647235_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/6/99 6:43:23 AM Hawaiian Standard Time, OrgAgCons@aol.com writes: UNSUBSCRIBE << com From: OrgAgCons@aol.com >> --part1_1aa242fa.24647235_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (rly-zb04.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.4]) by air-zb04.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Thu, 06 May 1999 12:43:23 -0400 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id MAA13933; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25107; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:35:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24991 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:33:54 -0400 (EDT) From: OrgAgCons@aol.com Received: from OrgAgCons@aol.com (14449) by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id 6YYYa07562; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3e6ffeba.24631f30@aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 12:37:04 EDT Subject: Fwd: Unsubscribe To: bd-l@biodynamics.com CC: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_3e6ffeba.24631f30_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN --part1_3e6ffeba.24631f30_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unsubsribe -------------------- Return-path: OrgAgCons@aol.com From: OrgAgCons@aol.com Full-name: OrgAgCons Message-ID: <3e6ffeba.2461d4f3@aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:08:03 EDT Subject: Fwd: Unsubscribe To: bdnow@envirolink.org CC: bd-l@biodynamics.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part2_3e6ffeba.2461d4f3_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 --part2_3e6ffeba.2461d4f3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unsubsribe --part2_3e6ffeba.2461d4f3_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: OrgAgCons@aol.com From: OrgAgCons@aol.com Full-name: OrgAgCons Message-ID: <3e6ffeba.24608e66@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 13:54:46 EDT Subject: Re:Unsubscribe To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 I would like to unsubsribe Thank you OrgAgCons@aol.com --part2_3e6ffeba.2461d4f3_boundary-- --part1_3e6ffeba.24631f30_boundary-- --part1_1aa242fa.24647235_boundary-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 7 21:27:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA00307 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 21:27:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06378; Fri, 7 May 1999 21:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f184.hotmail.com [209.185.131.247]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06278 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 21:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 54180 invoked by uid 0); 8 May 1999 01:12:36 -0000 Message-ID: <19990508011236.54179.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 206.74.2.86 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 07 May 1999 18:12:36 PDT X-Originating-IP: [206.74.2.86] From: "Connie Gilbert" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ...Jeff Poppen Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 20:12:36 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 879 I will make it a priority to get hold of him and pass on your message :-) Connie >From: Intergalactic Garage >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Re: ...Jeff Poppen >Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 06:29:36 -0500 > >Dear Connie - > >If you see Jeff, would you please remind him to send me some more >installments of "The Barefoot Farmer" for publishing on BD Now! and on the >web? > >Thanks! > >-Allan Balliett >moderator >BD Now! > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 8 11:53:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07242 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 11:53:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02551; Sat, 8 May 1999 11:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02457 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 11:35:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts1-14.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.199.15]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with SMTP id IAA10637 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 08:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000701be9969$19356ca0$0fc76cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: Subject: Thank You Victor Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 08:37:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 880 To the List: As a bit of an antidote to the atmosphere of struggle that sometimes takes over the List, let us now celebrate Victor and Linette Landa and their Spiritual Food for the New Millenium. For two or three [more?] years now they have been building a link between people who eat Biodynamic food and those who grow it More fully convinced than most of us by direct experience of the _nutritional and spiritual density_ of Biodynamically-grown produce, they operate out of The School of Life in Maryland and the light must shine from that place. For Biodynamic producers too small or too busy to market small or medium amounts of fresh or stored produce--everything from spaghetti squash in October and November to Rolled Oats or coffee, available all year...a hundred or more products vitalized by Biodynamic practice--Spiritual Food for the New Millenium markets for them, sending the food list and a newsletter to an ever-growing list of "Committed Friends," people who commit to making at least one order a month. We just received our newsletter and price list dated Spring, 1999. This mighty and coordinated effort represents a dedication by Victor and Linette that inspires anyone who reads the booklet they included, "The Spirit of Service: Peaceful (R)Evolution...Spiritual Food and Social Transformation." The inspiration flows from their absolute conviction that Spiritual Food, spiritually prepared with love and devotion and gratitude, can make a difference in the world, starting now. "We cannot change the world, we can only change ourselves. If we all change, however, we can change the world profoundly," they write. And they see Biodynamically-cared-for food, grown with love and through wisdom, prepared consciously, as a key. A key that's available to all of us all the time, when we EAT MORE Biodynamic food and help each other economically by buying more of each other's products. Spiritual Food for the New Millenium 4217 East-West Highway Bethesda, MD 20814 1-888-384-9642 [works from Canada, too] 1-301-654-4899 Woody From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 8 16:04:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA09977 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 16:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14896; Sat, 8 May 1999 15:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA14788 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 15:48:04 -0400 (EDT) From: OrgAgCons@aol.com Received: from OrgAgCons@aol.com (14386) by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id hHBNa16142 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 15:52:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 15:52:00 EDT Subject: Fwd: Unsubscribe To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_dfa3f4b2.2465efe0_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 881 --part1_dfa3f4b2.2465efe0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please stop my mail for once and for all --part1_dfa3f4b2.2465efe0_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (rly-zc05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.5]) by air-zc01.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Fri, 07 May 1999 12:50:37 -0400 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id MAA21187; Fri, 7 May 1999 12:50:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26825; Fri, 7 May 1999 12:43:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26678 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 12:41:38 -0400 (EDT) From: OrgAgCons@aol.com Received: from OrgAgCons@aol.com (259) by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id 6IQAa27691; Fri, 7 May 1999 12:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1aa242fa.24647235@aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 12:43:33 EDT Subject: Fwd: Unsubscribe To: bd-l@biodynamics.com CC: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_1aa242fa.24647235_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN --part1_1aa242fa.24647235_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/6/99 6:43:23 AM Hawaiian Standard Time, OrgAgCons@aol.com writes: UNSUBSCRIBE << com From: OrgAgCons@aol.com >> -------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (rly-zb04.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.4]) by air-zb04.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Thu, 06 May 1999 12:43:23 -0400 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id MAA13933; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25107; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:35:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24991 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:33:54 -0400 (EDT) From: OrgAgCons@aol.com Received: from OrgAgCons@aol.com (14449) by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id 6YYYa07562; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3e6ffeba.24631f30@aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 12:37:04 EDT Subject: Fwd: Unsubscribe To: bd-l@biodynamics.com CC: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_3e6ffeba.24631f30_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN --part1_3e6ffeba.24631f30_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unsubsribe -------------------- Return-path: OrgAgCons@aol.com From: OrgAgCons@aol.com Full-name: OrgAgCons Message-ID: <3e6ffeba.2461d4f3@aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:08:03 EDT Subject: Fwd: Unsubscribe To: bdnow@envirolink.org CC: bd-l@biodynamics.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part2_3e6ffeba.2461d4f3_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 --part2_3e6ffeba.2461d4f3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unsubsribe --part2_3e6ffeba.2461d4f3_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: OrgAgCons@aol.com From: OrgAgCons@aol.com Full-name: OrgAgCons Message-ID: <3e6ffeba.24608e66@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 13:54:46 EDT Subject: Re:Unsubscribe To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 I would like to unsubsribe Thank you OrgAgCons@aol.com --part2_3e6ffeba.2461d4f3_boundary-- --part1_3e6ffeba.24631f30_boundary-- --part1_1aa242fa.24647235_boundary-- --part1_dfa3f4b2.2465efe0_boundary-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 8 16:44:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA10373 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 16:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA16687; Sat, 8 May 1999 16:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16599 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 16:25:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mroboz (d146.infoserve.net [199.175.157.146]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12028 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 13:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001701be9991$de2ab100$929dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Unsubscribe Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 13:31:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 882 Dear OrgAgCons@aol.com please address your unsubscribe messages directly to the moderator, Allan, igg@igg.com . It is much more efficient that way. Also, perhaps the list is tired of seeing your messages on bdnow!! M. -----Original Message----- From: OrgAgCons@aol.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, May 08, 1999 1:03 PM Subject: Fwd: Unsubscribe >Please stop my mail for once and for all > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 9 00:25:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA14967 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 00:25:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA05620; Sun, 9 May 1999 00:09:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA04783 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 00:00:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.136.26] (max12-11.stc.net [208.210.136.139]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA21676 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 00:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000701be9969$19356ca0$0fc76cce@netacc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 00:05:51 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Thank You Victor Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 883 Woody writes in reference to Victor and Linette Landa's devotion to getting more BD food in peoples' stomachs: "We cannot change the world, we can only change ourselves. If we all change, however, we can change the world profoundly," they write. And they see Biodynamically-cared-for food, grown with love and through wisdom, prepared consciously, as a key. A key that's available to all of us all the time, when we EAT MORE Biodynamic food and help each other economically by buying more of each other's products. Spiritual Food for the New Millenium 4217 East-West Highway Bethesda, MD 20814 1-888-384-9642 [works from Canada, too] 1-301-654-4899 Woody Thanks for offering this for everyone's attention. My hat is off to these folks for their clear perception as well as their ddication. They've encountered all kinds of obstacles, and they keep working on this despite all. I should add that Victor has a few cases of my famous dill pickles left from last year. They are all that's left as I personally am sold out until new cukes (not yet planted) are harvested and pickled. I not only grew these cukes, but also grew the dill, garlic, cayenne and grape leaves (grape leaves keep the pickles crisp without using calcium salts). I use unrefined sea salt and apple cider vinegar as the basis for the brine, and I water bath can them as wholes, spears and chips. Never waste the pickle juice left after the pickles are eaten up. It is tops for such things as vinegar and oil dressings, etc. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 Questions for Science: THE ATMOSPHERE. Why doesn't the Earth's warm air rise? Why is it so cold at the top of a mountain, i.e. nearer the Sun? Why in our houses is it warmer nearer the ceiling and colder at the floor, when an artificial source of heat is used? Why does marble expand with heat and why doesn't it contract again with cold? --Victor Schauberger From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 9 10:05:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA21737 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 10:05:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19298; Sun, 9 May 1999 09:47:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19214 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 09:44:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp4.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.104]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA04118 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 08:46:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <004a01be9a22$b135a100$684b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: <001701be9991$de2ab100$929dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> Subject: Spring Wildcrafting Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 08:48:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 884 Dear Friends, I have stumbled across a grand website for herbs, and especially the wonderful spring wild plants that are popping up everywhere...you will find the link "Edible Wild Plant Recipes" which is outstanding & I am going to try making Nettle Beer right away :-) ! I was also thrilled to find a plethora of Violet recipes (including a cool tidbit on how violets can be used to check pH - a natural litmus test!)...check it out & happy wildcrafting! http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Farm/9320/index.html Love Julie PS...Hope this is not a "repeat" for anyone, if so, consider visiting again! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 10 01:20:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA02421 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 01:20:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA02550; Mon, 10 May 1999 00:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.hawaii.rr.com (smtp2.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA02500 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 00:52:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phyl - 24.94.65.114 by smtp2.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Sun, 9 May 1999 18:59:07 -1000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990509185323.00c825e0@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 18:55:45 -1000 To: From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: [Fwd: Home health protection/Please read] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1801484==_.ALT" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 885 --=====================_1801484==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> From: The Farmers >> To: The Farmers >> Subject: [Fwd: Home health protection/Please read] >> Date: Sunday, May 09, 1999 9:40 AM >> >> And we wonder why, with all we do we still get sick or cannot feel >better..... >Please read and pass on .... > > On the issue of consumer protection and hazardous warnings, here's >a new one, I think. Those yellow sponges with the green plastic fibers on >the back for scrubbing pots-"Pot Scrubbers"- should be kept far from our >birds, fish, reptiles, cats and dogs, hamsters and whatever. Proctor & >Gamble, in it's continuing search to make America look clean and smell >great, has a new "improved" version of the sponge on the market that kills >odor-causing fungi that get in the sponge after a few uses. They make a >big deal out of this innovation on the outside packaging. > A friend of mine used one of these sponges to clean the glass > on a 200-gallon aquarium. The abrasive backs are good for removing algae >and smutz that collect on the inside of the tank. He refilled the tank and >after the water had time to condition and rid itself of chlorine, he >reintroduced his tropical fish collection of some 30 fish. Within five >hours of putting the fish back in the tank, they were all dead! Some began >to die after only 30 minutes. He removed the survivors to another tank but >they all died. Retracing his steps to clean the tank, the only thing that >was different was using that new kind of sponge-he'd used the regular old >Pot Scrubbers for years. > Lo and behold I discovered on the back of the packaging in > about the finest print you could put on plastic a description of the > fungicide (Triclosan) in the sponge and the warning in tiny boldface >letters, > "Not for use in aquariums. Keep away from other pets." Thanks for the >warning Proctor & Gamble. It seems the fungicide is a derivative of the >systemic pesticide-herbicide, 2-4-D, more popularly known as Agent Orange, >the chemical we sprayed all over Southeast Asian during the Vietnam War >that many veterans and war refugees say did them permanent damage to their >lungs and nervous systems. The package warning goes on to say the >fungicide cannot be washed from the sponge even if it is placed in the >dishwasher (in which case Agent Orange is now all over your dishes and >drinking > glasses). And, if you think its there to kill disease-causing bacteria >like Salmonella from contaminated chicken meat, think again-it's not an >effective enough bactericide to kill those kind of bugs. >By the way, the same chemical in the sponge (Triclosan), is >used now in many of those popular antibacterial, anti-viral disinfectant >liquid soaps (Ultra-dawn Antibacterial dishwashing soap) and hand cleaners >that are flooding the market. > > > (P.S. After reading this, my son did a little looking around and > discovered that Triclosan was the primary active ingredient in several >cleaning products we had [emphasize the past tense] around the house, > including: Soft Scrub sink cleaner, Lever 2000 hand soap and >Soft-[something] pump hand soap. Might be worth a look...) > > >New Home URL as of >4-20-99 >http://www.lcc.net/~timjam/ > >This will be active a while longer >http://users.netropolis.net/timjam/ > > >> Return-Path: timjam@lcc.net >Received: from stan.lcc.net (stan.lcc.net [207.70.172.240]) by ns2.icon.net >(8.8.8/Solaris Internet Mail with Anti-Spam :-)) with ESMTP id KAA19117 for >; Sat, 8 May 1999 10:26:49 -0500 (CDT) >Received: from default (crkt-ard1-a28.lcc.net [207.70.129.28]) > by stan.lcc.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA06956; > Sat, 8 May 1999 09:55:20 -0500 (CDT) >Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990508095452.0074ff48@lcc.net> >X-Sender: timjam@lcc.net >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) >Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 09:55:16 -0500 >To: timjam >From: James & Timika Sutton >Subject: Home health protection/Please read >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 > >And we wonder why, with all we do we still get sick or cannot feel >better..... >Please read and pass on .... > > > > > On the issue of consumer protection and hazardous warnings, here's >a new one, I think. Those yellow sponges with the green plastic fibers on >the back for scrubbing pots-"Pot Scrubbers"- should be kept far from our >birds, fish, reptiles, cats and dogs, hamsters and whatever. Proctor & >Gamble, in it's continuing search to make America look clean and smell >great, has a new "improved" version of the sponge on the market that kills >odor-causing fungi that get in the sponge after a few uses. They make a >big deal out of this innovation on the outside packaging. > A friend of mine used one of these sponges to clean the glass > on a 200-gallon aquarium. The abrasive backs are good for removing algae >and smutz that collect on the inside of the tank. He refilled the tank and >after the water had time to condition and rid itself of chlorine, he >reintroduced his tropical fish collection of some 30 fish. Within five >hours of putting the fish back in the tank, they were all dead! Some began >to die after only 30 minutes. He removed the survivors to another tank but >they all died. Retracing his steps to clean the tank, the only thing that >was different was using that new kind of sponge-he'd used the regular old >Pot Scrubbers for years. > Lo and behold I discovered on the back of the packaging in > about the finest print you could put on plastic a description of the > fungicide (Triclosan) in the sponge and the warning in tiny boldface letters, > "Not for use in aquariums. Keep away from other pets." Thanks for the >warning Proctor & Gamble. It seems the fungicide is a derivative of the >systemic pesticide-herbicide, 2-4-D, more popularly known as Agent Orange, >the chemical we sprayed all over Southeast Asian during the Vietnam War >that many veterans and war refugees say did them permanent damage to their >lungs and nervous systems. The package warning goes on to say the >fungicide cannot be washed from the sponge even if it is placed in the >dishwasher (in which case Agent Orange is now all over your dishes and >drinking > glasses). And, if you think its there to kill disease-causing bacteria >like Salmonella from contaminated chicken meat, think again-it's not an >effective enough bactericide to kill those kind of bugs. >By the way, the same chemical in the sponge (Triclosan), is >used now in many of those popular antibacterial, anti-viral disinfectant >liquid soaps (Ultra-dawn Antibacterial dishwashing soap) and hand cleaners >that are flooding the market. > > > (P.S. After reading this, my son did a little looking around and > discovered that Triclosan was the primary active ingredient in several >cleaning products we had [emphasize the past tense] around the house, > including: Soft Scrub sink cleaner, Lever 2000 hand soap and >Soft-[something] pump hand soap. Might be worth a look...) > > >New Home URL as of >4-20-99 >http://www.lcc.net/~timjam/ > >This will be active a while longer >http://users.netropolis.net/timjam/ =================================================== Please note Phyl Dwyer's new email address =================================================== --=====================_1801484==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" >> From: The Farmers <ashmanda@icon.net>
>> To: The Farmers <ashmanda@icon.net>
>> Subject: [Fwd: Home health protection/Please read]
>> Date: Sunday, May 09, 1999 9:40 AM
>>
>> And we wonder why, with all we do we still get sick  or cannot feel
>better.....
>Please read and pass on ....
>
> On the issue of consumer protection and hazardous warnings, here's
>a new one, I think.  Those yellow sponges with the green plastic fibers on
>the back for scrubbing pots-"Pot Scrubbers"- should be kept far from our
>birds, fish, reptiles, cats and dogs, hamsters and whatever.  Proctor &
>Gamble, in it's continuing search to make America look clean and smell
>great, has a new "improved" version of the sponge on the market that kills
>odor-causing fungi that get in the sponge after a few uses.  They make a
>big deal out of this innovation on the outside packaging.
> A friend of mine used one of these sponges to clean the glass
> on a 200-gallon aquarium.  The abrasive backs are good for removing algae
>and smutz that collect on the inside of the tank.  He refilled the tank and
>after the water had time to condition and rid itself of chlorine, he
>reintroduced his tropical fish collection of some 30 fish.  Within five
>hours of putting the fish back in the tank, they were all dead! Some began
>to die after only 30 minutes. He removed the survivors to another tank but
>they all died. Retracing his steps to clean the tank, the only thing that
>was different was using that new kind of sponge-he'd used the regular old
>Pot  Scrubbers for  years.
> Lo and behold I discovered on the back of the packaging in
> about the finest print you could put on plastic a description of the
> fungicide (Triclosan) in the sponge and the warning in tiny boldface
>letters,
> "Not for use in aquariums. Keep away from other pets."  Thanks for the
>warning Proctor & Gamble.  It seems the fungicide is a derivative of the
>systemic pesticide-herbicide, 2-4-D, more popularly known as Agent Orange,
>the chemical we sprayed all over Southeast Asian during the Vietnam War
>that many veterans and war refugees say did them permanent damage to their
>lungs  and nervous  systems.  The package warning goes on to say the
>fungicide cannot be washed from the sponge even if it is placed in the
>dishwasher (in which case Agent Orange is now all over your dishes and
>drinking
> glasses). And, if you think its there to kill disease-causing bacteria
>like Salmonella from contaminated chicken meat, think again-it's not an
>effective enough bactericide to kill those kind of bugs.
>By the way, the same chemical in the sponge (Triclosan), is
>used now in many of those popular antibacterial, anti-viral disinfectant
>liquid soaps (Ultra-dawn Antibacterial dishwashing soap) and hand cleaners
>that are flooding the market.
>    
>  
>   (P.S.  After reading this, my son did a little looking around and
> discovered that Triclosan was the primary active ingredient in several
>cleaning products we had [emphasize the past tense] around the house,
> including: Soft Scrub sink cleaner, Lever 2000 hand soap and
>Soft-[something] pump hand soap.  Might be worth a look...)
>
>
>New Home URL as of
>4-20-99
>http://www.lcc.net/~timjam/
>
>This will be active a while longer
>http://users.netropolis.net/timjam/
>
>
>> Return-Path: timjam@lcc.net
>Received: from stan.lcc.net (stan.lcc.net [207.70.172.240]) by ns2.icon.net
>(8.8.8/Solaris Internet Mail with Anti-Spam  :-)) with ESMTP id KAA19117 for
><ashmanda@icon.net>; Sat, 8 May 1999 10:26:49 -0500 (CDT)
>Received: from default (crkt-ard1-a28.lcc.net [207.70.129.28])
>       by stan.lcc.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA06956;
>       Sat, 8 May 1999 09:55:20 -0500 (CDT)
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990508095452.0074ff48@lcc.net>
>X-Sender: timjam@lcc.net
>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
>Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 09:55:16 -0500
>To: timjam
>From: James & Timika Sutton <timjam@lcc.net>
>Subject: Home health protection/Please read
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
>
>And we wonder why, with all we do we still get sick  or cannot feel
>better.....
>Please read and pass on ....
>
>
>
>
> On the issue of consumer protection and hazardous warnings, here's
>a new one, I think.  Those yellow sponges with the green plastic fibers on
>the back for scrubbing pots-"Pot Scrubbers"- should be kept far from our
>birds, fish, reptiles, cats and dogs, hamsters and whatever.  Proctor &
>Gamble, in it's continuing search to make America look clean and smell
>great, has a new "improved" version of the sponge on the market that kills
>odor-causing fungi that get in the sponge after a few uses.  They make a
>big deal out of this innovation on the outside packaging.
> A friend of mine used one of these sponges to clean the glass
> on a 200-gallon aquarium.  The abrasive backs are good for removing algae
>and smutz that collect on the inside of the tank.  He refilled the tank and
>after the water had time to condition and rid itself of chlorine, he
>reintroduced his tropical fish collection of some 30 fish.  Within five
>hours of putting the fish back in the tank, they were all dead! Some began
>to die after only 30 minutes. He removed the survivors to another tank but
>they all died. Retracing his steps to clean the tank, the only thing that
>was different was using that new kind of sponge-he'd used the regular old
>Pot  Scrubbers for  years.
> Lo and behold I discovered on the back of the packaging in
> about the finest print you could put on plastic a description of the
> fungicide (Triclosan) in the sponge and the warning in tiny boldface letters,
> "Not for use in aquariums. Keep away from other pets."  Thanks for the
>warning Proctor & Gamble.  It seems the fungicide is a derivative of the
>systemic pesticide-herbicide, 2-4-D, more popularly known as Agent Orange,
>the chemical we sprayed all over Southeast Asian during the Vietnam War
>that many veterans and war refugees say did them permanent damage to their
>lungs  and nervous  systems.  The package warning goes on to say the
>fungicide cannot be washed from the sponge even if it is placed in the
>dishwasher (in which case Agent Orange is now all over your dishes and
>drinking
> glasses). And, if you think its there to kill disease-causing bacteria
>like Salmonella from contaminated chicken meat, think again-it's not an
>effective enough bactericide to kill those kind of bugs.
>By the way, the same chemical in the sponge (Triclosan), is
>used now in many of those popular antibacterial, anti-viral disinfectant
>liquid soaps (Ultra-dawn Antibacterial dishwashing soap) and hand cleaners
>that are flooding the market.
>    
>  
>   (P.S.  After reading this, my son did a little looking around and
> discovered that Triclosan was the primary active ingredient in several
>cleaning products we had [emphasize the past tense] around the house,
> including: Soft Scrub sink cleaner, Lever 2000 hand soap and
>Soft-[something] pump hand soap.  Might be worth a look...)
>
>
>New Home URL as of
>4-20-99
>http://www.lcc.net/~timjam/
>
>This will be active a while longer
>http://users.netropolis.net/timjam/


===================================================
    Please note Phyl Dwyer's new email address
            <pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com>
=================================================== --=====================_1801484==_.ALT-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 10 10:36:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08492 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 10:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26350; Mon, 10 May 1999 10:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26246 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 10:18:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.181.68] ("port 2049"@[148.233.181.68]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FBI00JP2VRM6M@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 10 May 1999 09:16:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:21:31 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Horsetail vs ants ? In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <000701be9969$19356ca0$0fc76cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 886 Hello BDers: Probably someone here can help me find an explanation to the following event: I left a bunch of horsetail to dry on top of a counter and today I found a trail of dead ants around it. We do not use insecticides or any other poison in our property, nor was the horsetail treated in any way, it was collected in the wild. The only place I have found dead ants was around the horsetail, no where else in the counter or in the house. So that I assume whatever the cause of dead should be related to horsetail. I set the herb to dry two or three days prior the most recent full moon and the dying of the ants most have occured within the last three days (from today). Any one willing to take a shot or especulate on how this could be explained ? Many thanks Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 10 11:04:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09041 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 11:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28232; Mon, 10 May 1999 10:48:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28036 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 10:45:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00C8A4CA@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 10 May 1999 10:49:54 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 10 May 99 10:50:39 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 10 May 99 10:50:23 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:50:22 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Spritual food catalogue Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000701be9969$19356ca0$0fc76cce@netacc.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <50928647B8F@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 887 I hope this is a reasonable request: Could somebody please give some examples from the list of items offered (like 10 or 20 or at least catagory headins with 2-3 examples each)? Hugh's pickles sound wonderful, but I'm wondering what other items we're talking about here. Also, what kind of costs are involved? This may sound like a crass question, but the truth is I'm not likely to get a jar of those wonderful pickles if it costs $20 or something. And one last question, is this catalogue meant to be used only for bulk orderings that would require a bunch of people coordinating for the other rather than just one family? Thanks, Anita > To the List: > > As a bit of an antidote to the atmosphere of struggle that sometimes takes > over the List, let us now celebrate Victor and Linette Landa and their > Spiritual Food for the New Millenium. > > For two or three [more?] years now they have been building a link between > people who eat Biodynamic food and those who grow it More fully convinced > than most of us by direct experience of the _nutritional and spiritual > density_ of Biodynamically-grown produce, they operate out of The School of > Life in Maryland and the light must shine from that place. > > For Biodynamic producers too small or too busy to market small or medium > amounts of fresh or stored produce--everything from spaghetti squash in > October and November to Rolled Oats or coffee, available all year...a > hundred or more products vitalized by Biodynamic practice--Spiritual Food > for the New Millenium markets for them, sending the food list and a > newsletter to an ever-growing list of "Committed Friends," people who commit > to making at least one order a month. We just received our newsletter and > price list dated Spring, 1999. This mighty and coordinated effort > represents a dedication by Victor and Linette that inspires anyone who reads > the booklet they included, "The Spirit of Service: Peaceful > (R)Evolution...Spiritual Food and Social Transformation." The inspiration > flows from their absolute conviction that Spiritual Food, spiritually > prepared with love and devotion and gratitude, can make a difference in the > world, starting now. > > "We cannot change the world, we can only change ourselves. If we all > change, however, we can change the world profoundly," they write. And they > see Biodynamically-cared-for food, grown with love and through wisdom, > prepared consciously, as a key. A key that's available to all of us all the > time, when we EAT MORE Biodynamic food and help each other economically by > buying more of each other's products. > > Spiritual Food for the New Millenium > 4217 East-West Highway > Bethesda, MD 20814 > 1-888-384-9642 [works from Canada, too] > 1-301-654-4899 > > Woody > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 10 11:29:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09643 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 11:29:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29800; Mon, 10 May 1999 11:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acc.haverford.edu (acc.haverford.edu [165.82.1.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29531 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 11:11:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [165.82.19.116] (s116.magill.haverford.edu [165.82.19.116]) by acc.haverford.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA26745 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 11:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <50928647B8F@agecon.uga.edu> References: <000701be9969$19356ca0$0fc76cce@netacc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:15:25 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Bruce Bumbarger Subject: Re: Spritual food catalogue Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 888 Anita: Victor's catalog and pricelist (fall, 1998) can be found at the BDA website; go to www.biodynamics.com and click on the BD Food link. It's probably a little outdated, but gives a pretty good idea of the way things work. Good luck. Bruce >I hope this is a reasonable request: Could somebody please give some >examples from the list of items offered (like 10 or 20 or at least >catagory headins with 2-3 examples each)? Hugh's pickles sound >wonderful, but I'm wondering what other items we're talking about >here. Also, what kind of costs are involved? This may sound like a >crass question, but the truth is I'm not likely to get a jar of those >wonderful pickles if it costs $20 or something. And one last >question, is this catalogue meant to be used only for bulk orderings >that would require a bunch of people coordinating for the other >rather than just one family? Thanks, Anita > >> To the List: >> >> As a bit of an antidote to the atmosphere of struggle that sometimes takes >> over the List, let us now celebrate Victor and Linette Landa and their >> Spiritual Food for the New Millenium. >> >> For two or three [more?] years now they have been building a link between >> people who eat Biodynamic food and those who grow it More fully convinced >> than most of us by direct experience of the _nutritional and spiritual >> density_ of Biodynamically-grown produce, they operate out of The School of >> Life in Maryland and the light must shine from that place. >> >> For Biodynamic producers too small or too busy to market small or medium >> amounts of fresh or stored produce--everything from spaghetti squash in >> October and November to Rolled Oats or coffee, available all year...a >> hundred or more products vitalized by Biodynamic practice--Spiritual Food >> for the New Millenium markets for them, sending the food list and a >> newsletter to an ever-growing list of "Committed Friends," people who commit >> to making at least one order a month. We just received our newsletter and >> price list dated Spring, 1999. This mighty and coordinated effort >> represents a dedication by Victor and Linette that inspires anyone who reads >> the booklet they included, "The Spirit of Service: Peaceful >> (R)Evolution...Spiritual Food and Social Transformation." The inspiration >> flows from their absolute conviction that Spiritual Food, spiritually >> prepared with love and devotion and gratitude, can make a difference in the >> world, starting now. >> >> "We cannot change the world, we can only change ourselves. If we all >> change, however, we can change the world profoundly," they write. And they >> see Biodynamically-cared-for food, grown with love and through wisdom, >> prepared consciously, as a key. A key that's available to all of us all the >> time, when we EAT MORE Biodynamic food and help each other economically by >> buying more of each other's products. >> >> Spiritual Food for the New Millenium >> 4217 East-West Highway >> Bethesda, MD 20814 >> 1-888-384-9642 [works from Canada, too] >> 1-301-654-4899 >> >> Woody >> >> > > >Anita Graf >313-F Conner Hall >Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics >University of Georgia >Athens, GA 30602-7509 >(706) 542-1915 phone >(706) 542-0739 fax >agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 10 17:04:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA18561 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 17:04:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA04302; Mon, 10 May 1999 16:46:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04220 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 16:46:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.244.96.139] (dialup-209.244.96.139.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net [209.244.96.139]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02495; Mon, 10 May 1999 13:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905102051.NAA02495@harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:52:47 -0700 Subject: bd 500 From: "Robert Coulombe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org CC: whyer@sonic.net Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 889 A friend of mine is very interested in bd. He has a question. What is the difference between 500 & 501? Robert Coulombe From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 10 19:12:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21130 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 19:12:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16605; Mon, 10 May 1999 18:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16008 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 18:48:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts1-12.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.199.13]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with SMTP id PAA24011 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 15:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001301be9b37$ecd15180$0dc76cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <199905102051.NAA02495@harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: bd 500 Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:51:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 890 Robert: Briefly: BD#500 is horn manure, in the ground for the winter, sprayed in the evening in big droplets, for the soil life; BD#501 is horn crystal, in the ground for the winter, sprayed in the morning in a fine mist, to enhance above ground growth, fruiting, and seeding. If this doesn't raise a pack of questions that sends your friend scurrying for one of the basic BD books, then I miss my guess. Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Coulombe To: Cc: Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 1:52 PM Subject: bd 500 > A friend of mine is very interested in bd. He has a question. What is the > difference between 500 & 501? > > Robert Coulombe > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 10 19:12:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21134 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 19:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16497; Mon, 10 May 1999 18:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15996 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 18:48:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts1-12.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.199.13]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with SMTP id PAA27685 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 15:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001201be9b37$eb2db3a0$0dc76cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <50928647B8F@agecon.uga.edu> Subject: Re: Spritual food catalogue Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:48:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 891 Anita: My intention was to put you in touch with Victor and Spiritual Food for the New Millenium. He's not yet email or webpage savvy, but that's coming. Meanwhile, 1-888-384-9642 [works from Canada, too] to order and have all your questions answered. I'll work on scanning his price list, but it's formatted such that I don't think my scanner can handle it. The BDA webpage will give you the listing as it was last Fall, the flavor of the thing, but incomplete and maybe misleading as to prices and terms. Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: Anita Graf (Staff) To: Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 3:50 AM Subject: Spritual food catalogue > I hope this is a reasonable request: Could somebody please give some > examples from the list of items offered (like 10 or 20 or at least > catagory headins with 2-3 examples each)? Hugh's pickles sound > wonderful, but I'm wondering what other items we're talking about > here. Also, what kind of costs are involved? This may sound like a > crass question, but the truth is I'm not likely to get a jar of those > wonderful pickles if it costs $20 or something. And one last > question, is this catalogue meant to be used only for bulk orderings > that would require a bunch of people coordinating for the other > rather than just one family? Thanks, Anita > > > To the List: > > > > As a bit of an antidote to the atmosphere of struggle that sometimes takes > > over the List, let us now celebrate Victor and Linette Landa and their > > Spiritual Food for the New Millenium. > > > > For two or three [more?] years now they have been building a link between > > people who eat Biodynamic food and those who grow it More fully convinced > > than most of us by direct experience of the _nutritional and spiritual > > density_ of Biodynamically-grown produce, they operate out of The School of > > Life in Maryland and the light must shine from that place. > > > > For Biodynamic producers too small or too busy to market small or medium > > amounts of fresh or stored produce--everything from spaghetti squash in > > October and November to Rolled Oats or coffee, available all year...a > > hundred or more products vitalized by Biodynamic practice--Spiritual Food > > for the New Millenium markets for them, sending the food list and a > > newsletter to an ever-growing list of "Committed Friends," people who commit > > to making at least one order a month. We just received our newsletter and > > price list dated Spring, 1999. This mighty and coordinated effort > > represents a dedication by Victor and Linette that inspires anyone who reads > > the booklet they included, "The Spirit of Service: Peaceful > > (R)Evolution...Spiritual Food and Social Transformation." The inspiration > > flows from their absolute conviction that Spiritual Food, spiritually > > prepared with love and devotion and gratitude, can make a difference in the > > world, starting now. > > > > "We cannot change the world, we can only change ourselves. If we all > > change, however, we can change the world profoundly," they write. And they > > see Biodynamically-cared-for food, grown with love and through wisdom, > > prepared consciously, as a key. A key that's available to all of us all the > > time, when we EAT MORE Biodynamic food and help each other economically by > > buying more of each other's products. > > > > Spiritual Food for the New Millenium > > 4217 East-West Highway > > Bethesda, MD 20814 > > 1-888-384-9642 [works from Canada, too] > > 1-301-654-4899 > > > > Woody > > > > > > > Anita Graf > 313-F Conner Hall > Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics > University of Georgia > Athens, GA 30602-7509 > (706) 542-1915 phone > (706) 542-0739 fax > agraf@agecon.uga.edu > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 10 23:19:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA25845 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 23:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA07267; Mon, 10 May 1999 23:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06678 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 22:58:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts2-8.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.199.40]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with SMTP id UAA30219 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 20:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000d01be9b5a$e110f760$28c76cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <199905102051.NAA02495@harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <001301be9b37$ecd15180$0dc76cce@netacc.net> Subject: Re: bd 500 Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 20:03:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 892 That should read: <<; BD#501 is horn crystal, in the ground for the SUMMER>> Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: Woody Wodraska To: Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 3:51 PM Subject: Re: bd 500 > Robert: > > Briefly: > > BD#500 is horn manure, in the ground for the winter, sprayed in the evening > in big droplets, for the soil life; BD#501 is horn crystal, in the ground > for the winter, sprayed in the morning in a fine mist, to enhance above > ground growth, fruiting, and seeding. If this doesn't raise a pack of > questions that sends your friend scurrying for one of the basic BD books, > then I miss my guess. > > Woody > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Coulombe > To: > Cc: > Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 1:52 PM > Subject: bd 500 > > > > A friend of mine is very interested in bd. He has a question. What is the > > difference between 500 & 501? > > > > Robert Coulombe > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 11 02:54:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA28449 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 02:54:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA17732; Tue, 11 May 1999 01:27:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA17683 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 01:26:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.90.44.234] (dialup-166.90.44.234.SanFrancisco1.Level3.net [166.90.44.234]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06630 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 22:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905110531.WAA06630@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:33:05 -0700 Subject: Re: bd 500 From: "Robert Coulombe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 893 Thanks very much for the info. Robert Coulombe ---------- >From: "Woody Wodraska" >To: >Subject: Re: bd 500 >Date: Mon, May 10, 1999, 8:03 PM > > That should read: <<; BD#501 is horn crystal, in the ground > for the SUMMER>> > > Woody > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Woody Wodraska > To: > Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 3:51 PM > Subject: Re: bd 500 > > >> Robert: >> >> Briefly: >> >> BD#500 is horn manure, in the ground for the winter, sprayed in the > evening >> in big droplets, for the soil life; BD#501 is horn crystal, in the ground >> for the winter, sprayed in the morning in a fine mist, to enhance above >> ground growth, fruiting, and seeding. If this doesn't raise a pack of >> questions that sends your friend scurrying for one of the basic BD books, >> then I miss my guess. >> >> Woody >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Robert Coulombe >> To: >> Cc: >> Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 1:52 PM >> Subject: bd 500 >> >> >> > A friend of mine is very interested in bd. He has a question. What is > the >> > difference between 500 & 501? >> > >> > Robert Coulombe >> > >> > >> >> > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 11 08:50:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA02749 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:50:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03767; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:25:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03650 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp78.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.178]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id HAA29018 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 07:25:27 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00ac01be9ba9$a6563b40$904b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: Subject: Yearling heifers for sale Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 07:27:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 894 Friends, We have 10 Jersey yearling heifers for sale (with horns). Of course that makes them less desirable on the conventional market (even organic), so I'm putting this to you all in the hopes that they will go to a nice BD home. Naturally, we would like to NOT have to ship them very far, (from WI) as this is a huge stress. Please contact me privately, if you are interested. Love Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 11 08:51:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA02760 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04201; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04022 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:30:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00C94AD2@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 11 May 1999 8:26:56 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 11 May 99 08:27:42 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 11 May 99 08:27:36 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:27:31 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Spritual food catalogue Priority: normal In-reply-to: <001201be9b37$eb2db3a0$0dc76cce@netacc.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <51EC7F66DA3@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 895 Thank you very much, Woody. I did see the web page and got a good idea of what it's about (except it doesn't give a clue as to the shipping charges). But you're right, I have the phone #, so I can call and verify. Let me know if you get the price list scanned. Thank you again. Anita > Anita: > > My intention was to put you in touch with Victor and Spiritual Food for the > New Millenium. He's not yet email or webpage savvy, but that's coming. > Meanwhile, 1-888-384-9642 [works from Canada, too] > to order and have all your questions answered. I'll work on scanning his > price list, but it's formatted such that I don't think my scanner can handle > it. The BDA webpage will give you the listing as it was last Fall, the > flavor of the thing, but incomplete and maybe misleading as to prices and > terms. > > Woody > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Anita Graf (Staff) > To: > Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 3:50 AM > Subject: Spritual food catalogue > > > > I hope this is a reasonable request: Could somebody please give some > > examples from the list of items offered (like 10 or 20 or at least > > catagory headins with 2-3 examples each)? Hugh's pickles sound > > wonderful, but I'm wondering what other items we're talking about > > here. Also, what kind of costs are involved? This may sound like a > > crass question, but the truth is I'm not likely to get a jar of those > > wonderful pickles if it costs $20 or something. And one last > > question, is this catalogue meant to be used only for bulk orderings > > that would require a bunch of people coordinating for the other > > rather than just one family? Thanks, Anita > > > > > To the List: > > > > > > As a bit of an antidote to the atmosphere of struggle that sometimes > takes > > > over the List, let us now celebrate Victor and Linette Landa and their > > > Spiritual Food for the New Millenium. > > > > > > For two or three [more?] years now they have been building a link > between > > > people who eat Biodynamic food and those who grow it More fully > convinced > > > than most of us by direct experience of the _nutritional and spiritual > > > density_ of Biodynamically-grown produce, they operate out of The School > of > > > Life in Maryland and the light must shine from that place. > > > > > > For Biodynamic producers too small or too busy to market small or medium > > > amounts of fresh or stored produce--everything from spaghetti squash in > > > October and November to Rolled Oats or coffee, available all year...a > > > hundred or more products vitalized by Biodynamic practice--Spiritual > Food > > > for the New Millenium markets for them, sending the food list and a > > > newsletter to an ever-growing list of "Committed Friends," people who > commit > > > to making at least one order a month. We just received our newsletter > and > > > price list dated Spring, 1999. This mighty and coordinated effort > > > represents a dedication by Victor and Linette that inspires anyone who > reads > > > the booklet they included, "The Spirit of Service: Peaceful > > > (R)Evolution...Spiritual Food and Social Transformation." The > inspiration > > > flows from their absolute conviction that Spiritual Food, spiritually > > > prepared with love and devotion and gratitude, can make a difference in > the > > > world, starting now. > > > > > > "We cannot change the world, we can only change ourselves. If we all > > > change, however, we can change the world profoundly," they write. And > they > > > see Biodynamically-cared-for food, grown with love and through wisdom, > > > prepared consciously, as a key. A key that's available to all of us all > the > > > time, when we EAT MORE Biodynamic food and help each other economically > by > > > buying more of each other's products. > > > > > > Spiritual Food for the New Millenium > > > 4217 East-West Highway > > > Bethesda, MD 20814 > > > 1-888-384-9642 [works from Canada, too] > > > 1-301-654-4899 > > > > > > Woody > > > > > > > > > > > > Anita Graf > > 313-F Conner Hall > > Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics > > University of Georgia > > Athens, GA 30602-7509 > > (706) 542-1915 phone > > (706) 542-0739 fax > > agraf@agecon.uga.edu > > > > > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 11 12:00:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA06575 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 12:00:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20587; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20495 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.123]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990511154827.ROAG7471167.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 03:48:27 +1200 Message-ID: <37385131.2A6C@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 03:48:01 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: off : NZ GE victory Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 896 NZ KIWIFRUIT REJECTS GE In a move completely contrary to the rest of the NZ agricultural industry the NZ kiwifruit marketing board announced to day that it has no GE products presently for sale and that it will not be funding any GE research in the foreseeable future. Marketing the Zesperi brand of kiwifruit, the board has been influenced by the consumers, mostly the Japanese and Europeans who have told them clearly they can have access as long as they are GE free. In turn their company policy has been stated as " We want environmental integrity and food safety to become synonymous with the Zesperi brand and system." While the organic production is still only 2% of the industry, its influence is beginning to be felt. ( The 2:98 rule kicking in ) The NZ kiwifruit industry has already moved to reduce chemical imputs and has gone from some 28 chemical sprays a year to four or five, with a 5 month chemical spray free period before harvest. The packhouse leading the organic movement, Centrepac has been eagerly mergered with a few times in as many years, as other industry players see their knowledge and experience is the way of the future. In contrast to this every other ag sector in NZ is actively exploring GE options, still believing it has a future. Even though a recent poll showed 60% of NZ consumers do not want GE food. Interestingly the NZ government has had the presence of mind to invest $100 million into GE research, while neglecting to find the time to implement any regulation or risk assessment policies whatsoever. It has been determined there is 56 GE organisms and approximately 70% of the food on our supermarket shelves with GE organisms in them, and the government is allowing another 14 months free access of untested and unregulated GE products on our market, because the GE industry did not get itself together to register their products by the May 13 deadline. So good on the kiwifruit marketing board for taking the initative and hopefully leading the rest of our producers into the future. Glen Atkinson. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 11 14:33:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA10297 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:33:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07233; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:15:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07050 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:13:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00C9A106@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:17:43 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 11 May 99 14:18:27 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 11 May 99 14:18:05 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:17:56 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: OFF: Sahara deserts and growing pains Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <41EE29725FE@agecon.uga.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <5249FA37FE0@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 897 > Dear Anita, > > Very profound observations, especially about the souls of the people living > in these environments. We have many impoverished souls on this planet, and > there is no other answer but to provide spiritual food. As I put it in my > book, " It is not much help to a starving man to make him dependent on the > breadlines. He benefits more from a few fishhooks and some seed corn. > Likewise the priesthood might do more than dole out a meager spiritual > reassurance. It should lead people to find truth, hope and empowerment > where these things originate in personal everyday life." > > We must teach people to identify truths, discover hope, develop > empowerment. Holy smoke! That's obvious. Why does nobody say these things? > What the hell is being taught in our schools? Multiplication tables? > Alphabets? > > I rail against this kind of thing because to my way of thinking the most > basic requierments of education are (1) observation, (2) acknowledgment > (end of cycle) and (3) follow through. I know this takes may forms, but if > you have these three basic skills you can learn anything. Just don't pass > over anything that you don't understand. > > Heaven help us that we are not doing this. Inspiration is not an expensive > commodity! Very probably this is one of the central questions of desert > reclaimation. And until we answer it our Genesis "angel of fire" will keep > us out of the garden of eden. Here we have assumed rulership of the earth > as though we were gods, but we haven't the wisdom, only the arrogance. The > human race is in the midst of heavy duty growing pains. > > Best, > Hugh Lovel Hi Hugh, I've continued to think about this post you sent a week or so ago. It hits on some interesting points. I'm guessing that truth identification, hope discovery, and empowerment development along with large doses of inspiration are probably notably lacking in the teachers which is why they are also lacking in the class room. Also, I think there is a lot of confusion out there about what is bad and and what is good, and often times teachers who venture at all outside of their sterile curriculi run into opposition. (This is largely what keeps me from wanting to be a public school teacher.) For those without a strong moral rutter, even a favorable wind can knock 'em over. I have a dear friend from Seria who is suffering right now as a professor at a university in the United Arab Emmerates (trying to work off his Serian miliatary obligation), and what he told me was that one of the most distressing aspects of his work is that not only is he in a culture that believes in berating and humiliating students in the course of "information transfer" (as he calls this kind of soul-less teaching), but he is prohibited from speaking freely with his students (even on a one-to-one basis) because anything he says can and likely will be used against him. The simplest effort at inspiration, truth, hope, empowerment (what he regards as the essence of true teaching) is usually misunderstood and considered an offense to the national dogma. (And in the UAE, you don't want to be on the wrong side of the law or public opinion!) Now, by most criteria, the UAE is a long way from the US, but I think there are some similar characteristics to be observed just because the darker side of human nature is evident anywhere on the globe. Unfortunately, the domain of "truth," "hope," and "inspiration" has come to fall in the realm of the various church dogmas, and when you step into there arena, you're going to arouse a controversy, at the very least. In a world where monoculture chem lawns are considered ideal representations of nature, it can be quite an uphill battle to bring diversity and LIFE into the classroom and into the world at large. You're so right that the priority put on multiplication tables and alphebets (the "information transfer") is totally backward. But that is part of the ignorance you talk about. I also agree that we are in the "midst of heavy duty growing pains." I see some big (no, HUGE) cultural changes from my mother's generation to mine, though most of the old paradigms have yet to change. In the course of one generation (my mother born in '38, I in '67), institutional racism has been abolished, attitudes on everything from food to "normal" lifestyles has changed tremendously, and the birth of the "New Age" movement has put talk of reincarnation, spirit, soul, and much more in the everyday conversations of everyday people. When I was in between jobs last summer I used to watch the most incredible Opra Winfrey shows where she dedicated the whole summer to shows which solely focused on "reconnecting with the Spirit." It was one of the most amazing things I have ever seen on tv, and it wasn't something obscure hidden on PBS or published in a book that only collected dust, it was out there on one of the most watched shows of all times! At the same time, we have all the other problems both mentioned here and elsewhere. So, it is a very interesting time. I don't have any profound conclusions, I just wanted to continue this line of conversation a little more! Regards, Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 11 21:22:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA19716 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 21:22:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12225; Tue, 11 May 1999 21:02:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fep7.mail.ozemail.net (fep7.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.125]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03414 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 18:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (slmlb19p28.ozemail.com.au [203.108.29.220]) by fep7.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA10407 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 08:57:50 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <003f01be9c00$9cfe5800$dc1d6ccb@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: "BD" Subject: Re John Jeavon's books? Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 08:50:02 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01BE9C54.6CE6BF00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 898 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BE9C54.6CE6BF00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi BD friends Searching on amazon.com John Jeavon's 'How to grow more vegetables than = you ever thought possible" is out of print, however "How to grow more = vegetables:fruits, nuts, berries, grains and other crops" is available. = the title sounds so similar one would suppose that this is a new = edition of the first named book however coming from a position of = 'assume nothing' - is it? If it is a different title are they both = worth buying ( the cost of the books isn't too bad - the postage to OZ = is considerable) Warm regards Gwenda Ps the Gene Ethics network is having a lunchtime picnic on the steps of = the Minster of Health's doorstep today in Melbourne, will keep you = posted. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BE9C54.6CE6BF00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi BD friends
Searching on amazon.com John Jeavon's 'How to grow = more=20 vegetables than you ever thought possible" is out of print, however "How = to grow=20 more vegetables:fruits, nuts, berries, grains and other crops" is = available. the=20 title sounds so similar  one would suppose that this is a new = edition of=20 the first named book however coming from a position of 'assume = nothing'  -=20 is it? If it is a different title are they both worth buying ( the cost = of the=20 books isn't too bad - the postage to OZ is considerable)
Warm regards Gwenda
Ps the Gene Ethics network is having a  = lunchtime picnic=20 on the steps of the Minster of Health's doorstep today in Melbourne, = will keep=20 you posted.
------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BE9C54.6CE6BF00-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 12 00:31:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA22918 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 00:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA24569; Wed, 12 May 1999 00:08:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inovion.com (root@solo.inovion.com [216.172.181.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA23871 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 00:04:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tom (s37.cs00.inovion.com [216.172.181.169]) by inovion.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA21807 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 04:15:36 GMT (envelope-from wikstrom@inovion.com) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990511221017.00942c8c@inovion.com> X-Sender: wikstrom@inovion.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:10:17 -0600 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Tom Wikstrom Subject: Re: bd 500 In-Reply-To: <001301be9b37$ecd15180$0dc76cce@netacc.net> References: <199905102051.NAA02495@harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 899 I am curious about bd. Read up a little on it in the Josephine Porter Institute catalog but am a little leary of the notion of forces, etc. Has anyone had real success with the different bd sprays? I am a hard sell on forces etc. Thanks. At 03:51 PM 5/10/99 -0700, you wrote: >Robert: > >Briefly: > >BD#500 is horn manure, in the ground for the winter, sprayed in the evening >in big droplets, for the soil life; BD#501 is horn crystal, in the ground >for the winter, sprayed in the morning in a fine mist, to enhance above >ground growth, fruiting, and seeding. If this doesn't raise a pack of >questions that sends your friend scurrying for one of the basic BD books, >then I miss my guess. > >Woody >----- Original Message ----- >From: Robert Coulombe >To: >Cc: >Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 1:52 PM >Subject: bd 500 > > >> A friend of mine is very interested in bd. He has a question. What is the >> difference between 500 & 501? >> >> Robert Coulombe >> >> > > > Tom Wikstrom, Happy Trowels Farm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 12 06:23:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA26013 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 06:23:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA09386; Wed, 12 May 1999 06:02:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27935 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 00:58:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.136.26] (max9-39.stc.net [208.210.135.39]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA02669 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 01:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990511221017.00942c8c@inovion.com> References: <001301be9b37$ecd15180$0dc76cce@netacc.net> <199905102051.NAA02495@harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:04:10 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: bd 500 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 900 >X-Sender: wikstrom@inovion.com >Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:10:17 -0600 >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >From: Tom Wikstrom >Subject: Re: bd 500 >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org > >I am curious about bd. Read up a little on it in the Josephine Porter >Institute catalog but am a little leary of the notion of forces, etc. Has >anyone had real success with the different bd sprays? I am a hard sell on >forces etc. >Thanks. Dear Tom, Yes, there is really real success possible with the BD preps. But don't believe me, investigate for yourself. I've only been doing BD for 23 years. The notion of forces takes a little getting used to. You might start with something contemporary like James Gleick's Book, CHAOS, which is probably available from the library. It is surprising how much order can proceed from chaos. Is this a cams, levers and billiard balls universe? Or are there higher powers to which the chaotic masses resonate and respond? I can only advise you to investigate with as open a mind as possible, examining your assumptions and beliefs in the process. Meanwhile, stay tuned to this list and you'll undoubtedly encounter some things that will challenge your skeptical abilities. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 Questions for Science: THE ATMOSPHERE. Why doesn't the Earth's warm air rise? Why is it so cold at the top of a mountain, i.e. nearer the Sun? Why in our houses is it warmer nearer the ceiling and colder at the floor, when an artificial source of heat is used? Why does marble expand with heat and why doesn't it contract again with cold? --Victor Schauberger From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 12 06:23:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA26018 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 06:23:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA09455; Wed, 12 May 1999 06:02:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA28673 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 01:15:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.186.136] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.136]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FBL0052ZVXN6Q@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 12 May 1999 00:13:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:19:33 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Re John Jeavon's books? In-reply-to: <003f01be9c00$9cfe5800$dc1d6ccb@default> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id BAA28677 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 901 > Hi BD friends Searching on amazon.com John Jeavon's 'How to grow more vegetables than you ever thought possible" is out of print, however "How to grow more vegetables:fruits, nuts, berries, grains and other crops" is available. the title sounds so similar one would suppose that this is a new edition of the first named book however coming from a position of 'assume nothing' - is it? If it is a different title are they both worth buying ( the cost of the books isn't too bad - the postage to OZ is considerable) Warm regards Gwenda Ps the Gene Ethics network is having a lunchtime picnic on the steps of the Minster of Health's doorstep today in Melbourne, will keep you posted. I got the new edition from amazon books (How to grow more vegetables:fruits, nuts, berries, grains and other crops....), and it is basically an updated version of an old one I had in spanish. Since it is a translation, I guess it is safe to assume, it is also just a new edition of the english version. What makes the book worthwhile is a bunch tables that are very handy if you work without machinery in elevated beds. If you are looking for a BD reference, you are going to be disapointed, Jeoven's merely mentions Steiner as one of his inspirations for the biointensive method, but he never talks about using the preps. Nevertheless he recommends planting most of the herbs used in the preps along with your "food" crops. In general terms the book is a very basic organic gardening book, to me it was useful, but only for designing introductory courses and for building a demonstration plot of a "minifarming" methodology in a university setting. (here we are also using a modified chinampa, the square foot gardening-Bartolomeou's method and something of our own creation with two diferent types of controlled irrigation) hope this helps you. Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 12 06:23:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA26030 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 06:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA09329; Wed, 12 May 1999 06:02:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27179 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 00:46:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.136.26] (max9-39.stc.net [208.210.135.39]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA02038 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 00:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5249FA37FE0@agecon.uga.edu> References: <41EE29725FE@agecon.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:51:42 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts and growing pains Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 902 Dear Anita, I found out a long time ago that if one can only home in accurately enough on a problem or an upset and identify what it really is, it will disappear or cease to exist, at least as a problem or upset. For instance, the commonest stuck problem for the most folks is MONEY. They don't have enough, need it awful bad, can't get enough, etc. It can never be resolved because as long as the problem is viewed as money this is and never will be an accurate identification. But ask the question: "What problems is money your solution for?" and start listing and nulling and the whole thing begins to unravel like a sweater that's had a thread snagged by a thorn as one drives off on the tractor. Truth, hope, empowerment, inspiration--these things are all free to those who work for them. Some of the hugest inner hindrances are our assumptions and beliefs. How can we correctly identify our limiting assumptions and beliefs so they cease to obscure the light of our inner beings? There's something called Creative Definition Procedure which is Appendix II in my book. One could take any of the above words--truth, hope, empowerment, inspiration--and go through Creative Definition Procedure with it. Everyone who sincerely does this will be surprised at what they find out. Here are the questions: 1. What does the word (or symbol)________ mean? 2. Tell me some things the word_______doesn't mean. 3. Tell me some things that the word_______can be used for. (to describe) 4. Tell me some things that the word_______can't be used for. (to describe) 5. Tell me what the word _______can be associated with. (connected with) 6. What does_______involve? 7. What does_______exclude? 8. What words, symbols or things can the word_______be differentiated from? 9. What is the word_______similar to? 10. What is the word_______different from, and in what way is it different? 11. Give me a deliberately misunderstood example (sentence) using the word_______. 12. Is there an earlier subject or are there earlier ideas that affect or influence your understanding of the word_______? If yes, what? 13. What prior assumptions or beliefs are necessary to understand the word_______? 14. What prior assumptions or beliefs are necessary to define or give meaning to the word_______? 15. What isn't necessary for you to understand the word_______? 16. What isn't necessary for you to use the word_______? 17. Exactly how could you effectively convey your understanding of _______to another? 18. How does your understanding of the word_______seem to you now? Really this whole definition process serves to prepare for examining assumptions and beliefs--our mainest impediments--and turning loose of them. The key is identifying what they are in the first place. Then the discovery may follow that they aren't as necessary as once imagined. I quite agree that in the conventional institutions of learning from kindergarten up there isn't much chance to open people up to truth, hope, empowerment and inspiration--to say nothing of the development of a strong moral sense and a clear vision of what good and evil are. There isn't much headway to be made on the freeway during rush hour either unless one gets off into the back streets. So it seems like the back streets and back waters are where we must sow our kernels of enlightenment if we hope to make any headway. On the job, at parties, on this list, etc. our opportunities are pretty amazing when looked at in the right light. My father, who was the best educated person I knew, taught first grade reading in a parochial school. He noted that we really needed our best teachers at the earliest grade levels where they can do the most good. Teaching a child to read, he told me, was like training a horse. You had to be unerringly consistent and unfailingly patient. And he taught all his reading students one-on-one while a nun supervised the rest of the class in a classroom down the hall. He wrote the spelling manual for Southeastern Louisiana University's English department, and no doubt he could have taught any number of university level classes. But he taught first grade. More than that, he instilled a love of learning in me, and I imagine in my other siblings, that went back to before I could talk. He first taught me as a baby less than two months old to nod or to shake my head if I wanted or didn't want something he would show me, such as my bottle. I caught on from him nodding or shaking his head asking for confirmation of how he read my body language. This is a vivid early memory. I really think we're missing the boat when we imagine a child's education begins when they start school. It goes on from the moment they are born, and we really do need the best teachers at the earliest age levels. Warm regards, Hugh Lovel First Hugh Lovel and then Anita Graf wrote: >> Dear Anita, >> >> Very profound observations, especially about the souls of the people living >> in these environments. We have many impoverished souls on this planet, and >> there is no other answer but to provide spiritual food. As I put it in my >> book, " It is not much help to a starving man to make him dependent on the >> breadlines. He benefits more from a few fishhooks and some seed corn. >> Likewise the priesthood might do more than dole out a meager spiritual >> reassurance. It should lead people to find truth, hope and empowerment >> where these things originate in personal everyday life." >> >> We must teach people to identify truths, discover hope, develop >> empowerment. Holy smoke! That's obvious. Why does nobody say these things? >> What the hell is being taught in our schools? Multiplication tables? >> Alphabets? >> >> I rail against this kind of thing because to my way of thinking the most >> basic requierments of education are (1) observation, (2) acknowledgment >> (end of cycle) and (3) follow through. I know this takes may forms, but if >> you have these three basic skills you can learn anything. Just don't pass >> over anything that you don't understand. >> >> Heaven help us that we are not doing this. Inspiration is not an expensive >> commodity! Very probably this is one of the central questions of desert >> reclaimation. And until we answer it our Genesis "angel of fire" will keep >> us out of the garden of eden. Here we have assumed rulership of the earth >> as though we were gods, but we haven't the wisdom, only the arrogance. The >> human race is in the midst of heavy duty growing pains. >> >> Best, > >> Hugh Lovel > >Hi Hugh, > >I've continued to think about this post you sent a week or so ago. >It hits on some interesting points. I'm guessing that truth >identification, hope discovery, and empowerment development along >with large doses of inspiration are probably notably lacking in the >teachers which is why they are also lacking in the class room. >Also, I think there is a lot of confusion out there about what is bad >and and what is good, and often times teachers who venture at all >outside of their sterile curriculi run into opposition. (This is >largely what keeps me from wanting to be a public school teacher.) > >For those without a strong moral rutter, even a favorable wind can >knock 'em over. I have a dear friend from Seria who is suffering >right now as a professor at a university in the United Arab Emmerates >(trying to work off his Serian miliatary obligation), and what he >told me was that one of the most distressing aspects of his work is >that not only is he in a culture that believes in berating and >humiliating students in the course of "information transfer" (as he >calls this kind of soul-less teaching), but he is prohibited from >speaking freely with his students (even on a one-to-one basis) >because anything he says can and likely will be used against him. >The simplest effort at inspiration, truth, hope, empowerment (what he >regards as the essence of true teaching) is usually misunderstood and >considered an offense to the national dogma. (And in the UAE, you >don't want to be on the wrong side of the law or public opinion!) > >Now, by most criteria, the UAE is a long way from the US, but >I think there are some similar characteristics to be observed just >because the darker side of human nature is evident anywhere on the >globe. Unfortunately, the domain of "truth," "hope," and >"inspiration" has come to fall in the realm of the various church >dogmas, and when you step into there arena, you're going to arouse a >controversy, at the very least. In a world where monoculture chem >lawns are considered ideal representations of nature, it can be quite >an uphill battle to bring diversity and LIFE into the classroom and >into the world at large. > >You're so right that the priority put on multiplication tables and >alphebets (the "information transfer") is totally backward. But that >is part of the ignorance you talk about. I also agree that we are in >the "midst of heavy duty growing pains." I see some big (no, HUGE) >cultural changes from my mother's generation to mine, though most >of the old paradigms have yet to change. In the course of one >generation (my mother born in '38, I in '67), institutional racism >has been abolished, attitudes on everything from food to "normal" >lifestyles has changed tremendously, and the birth of the "New Age" >movement has put talk of reincarnation, spirit, soul, and much more >in the everyday conversations of everyday people. When I was in >between jobs last summer I used to watch the most incredible Opra >Winfrey shows where she dedicated the whole summer to shows which >solely focused on "reconnecting with the Spirit." It was one of the >most amazing things I have ever seen on tv, and it wasn't something >obscure hidden on PBS or published in a book that only collected >dust, it was out there on one of the most watched shows of all times! >At the same time, we have all the other problems both mentioned here >and elsewhere. So, it is a very interesting time. > >I don't have any profound conclusions, I just wanted to continue this >line of conversation a little more! Regards, Anita > > >Anita Graf >313-F Conner Hall >Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics >University of Georgia >Athens, GA 30602-7509 >(706) 542-1915 phone >(706) 542-0739 fax >agraf@agecon.uga.edu Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 Questions for Science: THE ATMOSPHERE. Why doesn't the Earth's warm air rise? Why is it so cold at the top of a mountain, i.e. nearer the Sun? Why in our houses is it warmer nearer the ceiling and colder at the floor, when an artificial source of heat is used? Why does marble expand with heat and why doesn't it contract again with cold? --Victor Schauberger From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 12 12:01:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02858 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 12:01:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05448; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05342 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:42:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.16.208]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Wed, 12 May 1999 16:48:22 +0100 Message-ID: <3739A246.7DB6@cwcom.net> Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 16:46:15 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts and growing pains References: <41EE29725FE@agecon.uga.edu> <5249FA37FE0@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 903 Anita - I'm possibly out of order in responding to perhaps a minor element in your thoughtful posting and I certainly know very little about Steiner-Waldorf education (incidentally, can anyone recommend a good book on the subject?), but I'd like to comment on the place of "information transfer" in education. Sure, learning by rote in a disciplinarian atmosphere is scarcely a good thing - but then, some information _does_ have to be transferred! Apart from keying a calculator, how does anyone know what is 8x12 unless they remember "their tables"? I used to teach biology in Swansea University. Once upon a time, first-year students knew their taxonomy: yeah, it's so boring to have to learn, say, insect systematics, but how else can you get any idea of what is the bug you found on your field survey, is it likely to be a predator,a sapsucker, a leaf-eater or whatever? Then we got the Nuffield Biology Syllabus in which school students went straight on to trendy, sexy things like Ecology (definitely with a capital!), animal behaviour and "the new genetics"; which left us with undergrads who had no idea of the basic scaffolding supporting a serious study of plants and animals. So my tutorial students would complain to me that taking a degree is so uninteresting compared to thos exciting days at school when they were doing the equivalent of brain surgery without any knowledge of cranial anatomy. Surely there has to be a bit of each? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 12 12:01:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02867 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 12:01:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05012; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:40:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04547 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00CA53A2@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:41:49 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 12 May 99 11:42:34 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 12 May 99 11:42:19 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:42:17 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts and growing pains Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <5249FA37FE0@agecon.uga.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <53A07CB4635@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 904 Hugh wrote (and I have edited): > Dear Anita, > > I found out a long time ago that if one can only home in accurately enough > on a problem or an upset and identify what it really is, it will disappear > or cease to exist, at least as a problem or upset. For instance, the > commonest stuck problem for the most folks is MONEY. They don't have > enough, need it awful bad, can't get enough, etc. It can never be resolved > because as long as the problem is viewed as money this is and never will be > an accurate identification. But ask the question: "What problems is money > your solution for?" and start listing and nulling and the whole thing > begins to unravel like a sweater that's had a thread snagged by a thorn as > one drives off on the tractor. > > Truth, hope, empowerment, inspiration--these things are all free to those > who work for them. Some of the hugest inner hindrances are our assumptions > and beliefs. How can we correctly identify our limiting assumptions and > beliefs so they cease to obscure the light of our inner beings? > > There's something called Creative Definition Procedure which is Appendix II > in my book. One could take any of the above words--truth, hope, > empowerment, inspiration--and go through Creative Definition Procedure with > it. Everyone who sincerely does this will be surprised at what they find > out. > Really this whole definition process serves to prepare for examining > assumptions and beliefs--our mainest impediments--and turning loose of > them. The key is identifying what they are in the first place. Then the > discovery may follow that they aren't as necessary as once imagined. Oh, I most agree with you regarding facing and identifying and analyzing one's fears and preoccupations and assumptions. It's quite a task to walk into one's own inner sanctum and turn on the light rather than to continually scurry in the dark, running away from unidentified monsters. I am currently tutoring a 24 yr old boy (he appears to be more like an awkard 14 yr old). Officially, I am tutoring him in English, but his problems are so much deeper than fragmented sentences and incoherent writing. The fragmentation and incoherence is inside of *him,* and we only rarely have a chance to actually work on his essays. He has the habit of repeating the mantras "My problem is I worry too much," and "My problem is that I'm too nice." I think this akin to saying, "my problem is money." It's so vague and un-perceptive, that it serves more as a diversion than anything else. As long as we continue to focus our attention on meaningless things, we never get around to dealing with the real issues inside us, and this leads to the continual inner desertification in our souls. As to my student, I am trying to get him to LOOK at these mantras of his and go beyond the surface. Last time we seemed to make an important discovery that can only seem silly and ridiculous to anybody but him. We discovered that one of his main "worries" is his appearance, and specifically a condition on his smooth, round baby face known as "pores." When I told him that his skin looked flawless to me and that everyone has pores and anyway he'd be dead without them, he looked at me with such adoration and gratitude that it made me embarrassed. Geez, the silly things we get hung up over!! Here's another interesting thing that happened. I had him write some positive goals (trying to at least change the tune on his broken record). He said he wanted to be more patient (which seemed interesting in light of the fact that he says he's too passive and lets others take advantage of him -- said in a straight, dull, monotone voice). But when he went to write it down, he wrote, "I'm going to be more passion." Now, I'm not one to actively seek out Freudian slips, but this seemed important! So we looked up "passion" in the dictionary (right next to "passive," btw) and it mentioned "anger" and "rage" in the first definition (not the first synonyms that I would have come up with). And right away, he said (again, with a very calm demeanor) that he could relate to these words! How interesting. Then there were a couple of more things he said which basically said that he realized that he had been running away from his fears up until this point and avoiding the pain and work that might be necessary in his life. How doubly interesting (especially from someone so usually incoherent, inarticulate, and constantly distracted that when he speaks it's often in non sequitors and ramblings). I have no idea how things will develop here, but I am quite aware of the seeminly inordinately slow progress of real human change and development and I am trying not to have any particular expectations. These kinds of Sahara deserts weren't formed overnight and they won't likely be brought back to life so quickly either, but when given the opportunity, one has to do what one can and hope that of the thousands of seeds planted, at least some germinate. You say that "truth, hope, empowermen, inspiration -- these things are free to those who work for them," but that's a paradox. How can something be "free" and yet I have to "work for it"? I'm not sure that you were thinking about what a complex and profound statement you made here when you wrote it. This is at the crux of many a human dilema. You might just as well say (and you'd be right), "the entrance to paradise is free as long as you walk the Path to get there." I find that being a human being is often an absurd experience. I see people who work twice as hard to tell a lie as they would the truth and work twice as hard to walk away from the Path as they would to walk on it. I find myself tempted to do the same everyday. And how many of us undervalue what appears to be "free" (like air, water, kindness, a favor, life) and overvalue what appears to be expensive (I heard yesterday that an unsolicited photo of Marilyn Monroe goes for around $100,000)? Since there's no price tag on "peace of mind" or a "clean conscience," or "truth, hope, empowerment, inspiration" why do I have to work for these things? I'm too busy working to pay for a photo of Marilyn Monroe (or a fighter jet or a McDonald's franchise)!!! You know, I'm too busy being "successful." Imagine how many parking lots and office buildings could be built on the Sahara desert!! Uh oh, I'm starting to wax silly. My point is that these things are full of paradox and human life is often absurd. What is free is valuable, what is expensive is worthless, what is easy is difficult and what is most difficult is easiest of all. Thank you for your post and for the Creative Definition Procedure. I will try to do some of this with my student. Yours (but paradoxically, always mine) Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 12 14:03:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA05689 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 14:03:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21553; Wed, 12 May 1999 13:45:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21315 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 13:43:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00CA7238@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 12 May 1999 13:47:50 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 12 May 99 13:48:35 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 12 May 99 13:48:25 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:48:18 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts and growing pains Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3739A246.7DB6@cwcom.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <53C21F715D1@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 905 > Anita - I'm possibly out of order in responding to perhaps a minor > element in your thoughtful posting and I certainly know very little > about Steiner-Waldorf education (incidentally, can anyone recommend a > good book on the subject?), but I'd like to comment on the place of > "information transfer" in education. Sure, learning by rote in a > disciplinarian atmosphere is scarcely a good thing - but then, some > information _does_ have to be transferred! Apart from keying a > calculator, how does anyone know what is 8x12 unless they remember > "their tables"? > I used to teach biology in Swansea University. Once upon a time, > first-year students knew their taxonomy: yeah, it's so boring to have > to learn, say, insect systematics, but how else can you get any idea of > what is the bug you found on your field survey, is it likely to be a > predator,a sapsucker, a leaf-eater or whatever? Then we got the > Nuffield Biology Syllabus in which school students went straight on to > trendy, sexy things like Ecology (definitely with a capital!), animal > behaviour and "the new genetics"; which left us with undergrads who had > no idea of the basic scaffolding supporting a serious study of plants > and animals. So my tutorial students would complain to me that taking a > degree is so uninteresting compared to thos exciting days at school when > they were doing the equivalent of brain surgery without any knowledge of > cranial anatomy. Surely there has to be a bit of each? Tony N-S. > Oh, yes, of course!! I think it is comparing soil preperation with plant culturing. One need's both for harvest. A pure "information transfer" approach is like giving no attention at all to your soil. Wherever you happen to have lively soil to begin with, you're likely to get a harvest. But in many instances, you begin with hard pan and clay or whacky pH levels and this sort of approach is not very desirable. In this case, some people go to agro-chemicals, which in my analogy is your sexy-subject students who want juicy returns without the necessary understanding and work. When cultivating minds, like plants, the foundation (be it soil or soul) should be well developed and cared for foremost. Information transfer is of course part of education (a very important part!) as is planting seeds in a garden, but it is less important when the soul or soil is suffering from neglect. Btw, I went from preschool through high school at a Waldorf school (age 4-18). I'm not sure what point you wanted to make when you brought up Waldorf schools, but I suspect that you had an inkling that in these environments there is much more than just "information transfer" going on. If that's what you imagined, then I would say that from my experience you are quite right. Perhaps you would also like to know that a great deal of information transfer also goes on there, and that after I had a chance to compare myself in a bigger pond of educated fish (first at a prestigious ivy league school then at a "big ten" graduate school) I feel that I received one of the best educations possible. Granted, my soils were probably pretty fertile to begin with, but I have a great deal of respect and gratitude for my basic education and know that I was in a place that helped me flourish both academically and personally in a way that may not have happened elsewhere. Btw, there's lots of info on Waldorf education on the web. A good place to start is: http://www.bampfa.berkeley.edu/exhibits/steiner/weblinks.html Three cheers for basic education! Regards, Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 12 14:49:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06652 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 14:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25736; Wed, 12 May 1999 14:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25637 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 14:30:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.138]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990512183644.ECRZ7471167.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 06:36:44 +1200 Message-ID: <3739CA44.621B@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 06:36:52 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: bd 500 - Tom Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 906 Tom You 'believe' in electro magnetic forces??? Think about it on a planetary scale, then a solar system scale, then a galactic scale, and look where you are in it all. cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 12 21:23:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14330 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 21:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA28273; Wed, 12 May 1999 21:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA25261 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 20:09:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (whan-040.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.140]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02622 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 12:13:21 +1200 Message-ID: <001401be9cd3$b3154260$8cf631ca@oemcomputer> From: "g&y bodle" To: Subject: Re: off : NZ GE victory Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:01:02 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 907 Dear Glen, Good News indeed. But what has happened to the yellow Kiwifruit that they were developing? Werent they GE altered? Gareth. -----Original Message----- From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, 12 May 1999 3:50 AM Subject: off : NZ GE victory >NZ KIWIFRUIT REJECTS GE > >In a move completely contrary to the rest of the NZ agricultural >industry the NZ kiwifruit marketing board announced to day that it has >no GE products presently for sale and that it will not be funding any GE >research in the foreseeable future. > >Marketing the Zesperi brand of kiwifruit, the board has been influenced >by the consumers, mostly the Japanese and Europeans who have told them >clearly they can have access as long as they are GE free. > >In turn their company policy has been stated as >" We want environmental integrity and food safety to become synonymous >with the Zesperi brand and system." > >While the organic production is still only 2% of the industry, its >influence is beginning to be felt. ( The 2:98 rule kicking in ) The NZ >kiwifruit industry has already moved to reduce chemical imputs and has >gone from some 28 chemical sprays a year to four or five, with a 5 >month chemical spray free period before harvest. > >The packhouse leading the organic movement, Centrepac has been eagerly >mergered with a few times in as many years, as other industry players >see their knowledge and experience is the way of the future. > >In contrast to this every other ag sector in NZ is actively exploring GE >options, still believing it has a future. Even though a recent poll >showed 60% of NZ consumers do not want GE food. Interestingly the NZ >government has had the presence of mind to invest $100 million into GE >research, while neglecting to find the time to implement any regulation >or risk assessment policies whatsoever. It has been determined there is >56 GE organisms and approximately 70% of the food on our supermarket >shelves with GE organisms in them, and the government is allowing >another 14 months free access of untested and unregulated GE products on >our market, because the GE industry did not get itself together to >register their products by the May 13 deadline. > >So good on the kiwifruit marketing board for taking the initative and >hopefully leading the rest of our producers into the future. > >Glen Atkinson. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 13 00:23:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA16899 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 00:23:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08954; Thu, 13 May 1999 00:02:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03180 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 22:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.136.26] (max16-9.stc.net [208.210.138.137]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA02222 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 22:08:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <53A07CB4635@agecon.uga.edu> References: <5249FA37FE0@agecon.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:09:15 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts and growing pains Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 908 Anita writes: >You say that "truth, hope, empowerment, inspiration -- these things are >free to those who work for them," but that's a paradox. How can >something be "free" and yet I have to "work for it"? I'm not sure >that you were thinking about what a complex and profound statement you >made here when you wrote it. Anita, What I mean is you can't buy these things, nor can you barter or any of that. The only way you can get them is to work for them. Nor are time and effort key. One can spend ages and try excruciatingly hard with no effect if the heart isn't pure, the mind open, the will ready or the spirit embracive. What does it take for the heart to be pure, the mind to be open, the will to be ready or the spirit to embrace? Only a spark, a catylist, a point, a source. Not really anything tangible at all. As for work, the way I distinguish work from play is play may go on and on. With play there need be no completion. But work exists for accomplishment. The rationale for work is to get done. Work may be dilligent but it doesn't have to be difficult. It may even be play, but it is play with a purpose, and end, in mind. I think you see what I mean. It is as you said: >My point is that these things are >full of paradox and human life is often absurd. What is free is >valuable, what is expensive is worthless, what is easy is difficult >and what is most difficult is easiest of all. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 Questions for Science: THE ATMOSPHERE. Why doesn't the Earth's warm air rise? Why is it so cold at the top of a mountain, i.e. nearer the Sun? Why in our houses is it warmer nearer the ceiling and colder at the floor, when an artificial source of heat is used? Why does marble expand with heat and why doesn't it contract again with cold? --Victor Schauberger From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 13 00:23:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA16905 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 00:23:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA09027; Thu, 13 May 1999 00:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from news1.infoave.net (news1.InfoAve.Net [165.166.15.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA04066 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 22:18:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by news1.infoave.net; id AA21700; Wed, 12 May 1999 22:22:48 -0400 Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:22:48 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990512222504.1b079816@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: OFF: Resurrection & BD Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 909 Dear Friends, In retrospect I see that I should have clarified one of the points that came up in my last post. I used the analogy of a seed and quoted St. Paul: "The seed you sow does not come to life unless it has first died ..." (1 Cor 15:36). (Compare also Christ's words in John 12:24: "In truth, in very truth I tell you, a grain of wheat remains a solitary grain unless it falls into the ground and dies; but if it dies, it bears a rich harvest.") These are passages that do make sense from an anthroposophic/biodynamic point of view, although not from a materialistic scientific point of view. Let me try to explain. When a plant goes to seed, it is usually assumed that the seed inherits both the life and the form (genetic pattern) of the parent plant (or plants). On the basis of his clairvoyant research, however, Steiner calls both of these assumptions into question. Let me deal with the form aspect first, since this is discussed in the Agriculture Course, with which many of you are already familiar. In the second lecture of this Course, Steiner relates how a seed goes through a period of "chaos," during which the molecular structure inherited from the parent plant(s) disintegrates and then receives a new--but corresponding--form via certain forces coming from the cosmos. In other words, the parental genetic pattern is necessary--"to bring the seed into relationship with the forces from the proper [cosmic] directions, so that what emerges from a dandelion is a dandelion and not a barberry"--but this does not continue directly into the new generation. Instead, each new generation arising from a true seed starts out with a new, "heavenly" pattern that it has internalized from the periphery. To properly grasp this idea, it is helpful to know a little projective geometry. Any geometrical form can be constructed in two ways: either from the inside out or from the outside in. A sphere, for instance, can be regarded as the sum of points equidistant from a central point, but it can also be regarded as a sum of tangent planes "equidistant" from the plane at infinity. Geometrically, these two spheres are identical, except that one is "full" where the other is "empty," and vice versa. In the physical world, however, nothing is perfectly spherical--an egg cell, for instance, is only approximately spherical--and therefore the transition from "inside-out" construction to "outside-in" construction involves a significant difference. This difference may be subtle, but I think it may be at the basis of phenomena otherwise known as "random mutation" and "genetic recombination." The transition from one generation to the next is symbolized by the zodiacal sign (sigil) of Cancer: two interlocking spirals that do not quite touch in the center (see Steiner's lectures on the Gospel of St. Matthew, lec. 11). When plants propagate vegetatively, this "form renewal" does not occur and hence over time the genetic pattern deteriorates, i.e., the earthly form drifts further and further away from the heavenly/cosmic form. One tries with tissue culture techniques to minimize this deterioration of the clone (and thus achieve a kind of materialistic immortality), but in fact such lab propagated clones are sometimes less stable than the field propagated clones and thus must undergo a careful selection process in order to preserve the desired line. (This "somaclonal variation" is one of the underappreciated dangers of genetic engineering, which relies heavily on tissue culture techniques. If the selection process is not rigorous enough, one can expect that something unexpected will happen. This apparently was a factor in Dr. Pusztai's famous rat experiments last year in Great Britain; see http://www.rri.sari.ac.uk/gmo/ajp.htm.) In sum, with sexual plant propagation, the genetic pattern of the parent(s) is transmitted to the offspring, but only indirectly; the old pattern serves only as the basis or mold for a new, archetypal pattern to be received from the stars. Through the act of sexual fertilization the old, inner pattern is destroyed even as the appropriate new pattern is received from without. With this background it may now be easier to understand that a similar transition occurs between generations with respect to the _life_ of a plant. Although Steiner does not say so in the Agriculture Course, elsewhere he does say explicitly that the life of a seed does not come from its ancestors, but rather from the earth, from the soil (which, of course, is why biodynamics is so concerned with enlivening the soil). "It is a superficial belief of science that there is no great difference between [a] plant seed and [an] animal egg. In the animal egg, form and life are transmitted from progenitor to offspring: _Life_ is transmitted. In the seed of the lily [for example] nothing except the _form_ is preserved[,] and it is transmitted [indirectly] to the new lily. ... From the life of the old lily nothing passes over to the flower bed or flower pot in which the seed is lying. That the new lily is imbued with life is due to the fact that the seed has been received into the general life of our earth." (Lecture of June 4, 1909, in Rosicrucian Esotericism) After a fertilized seed matures, it usually needs to enter into a certain period of dormancy, during which time it will not germinate and is to all intents and purposes dead. Materialistic science _assumes_ that the life of the seed before and after dormancy is one and the same. On the other hand, on the basis of Steiner's indications, it seems that the breaking of dormancy ought to be regarded as the gradual permeation of the seed with new life from the general ethers of Mother Earth; in other words, a resurrection after the expiration of the individual etheric body from the parental generation. This raises the question of what the difference is between "dormant-dead" seeds and "truly dead" seeds, i.e., between those that sprout and those that rot. I suspect that this has something to do with the _form_ of the seed; if this is damaged, it cannot be resurrected. In this connection I think of the passage in the Gospel of St. John where importance is attached to the fact that on the Cross on Golgotha Jesus' legs were not broken by the soldiers (which was done to the two other people who were crucified at the same time in order to hasten their death) because Jesus had already died (Jn 19:36). Therefore the form of Jesus' skeleton--the real symbol of death--remained intact for the Resurrection. Seed development and physiology are very complicated and incompletely understood subjects. It would be interesting to explore some of the apparent exceptions to the need for dormancy, but I believe I have at least pointed to the fundamental phenomenon that holds true for most temperate plants, especially the ones that Paul mentions such as wheat. Interestingly, Steiner specifically mentions this passage from Paul (1 Cor 15:36), but suggests that in nature the Christmas season--rather than the Easter season--is particulary significant in this regard: "... what Paul expresses with the parable of the wheat seed takes place at Christmas. If the little seed does not die in the earth, no new fruit can arise. Old life passes away during the Christmas season, and new life arises in its womb. From these days forward, the sap begins to rise in the trees, new life flows forth, and the light begins to grow in the darkness that had been increasing until then. This is what a Christian thinks, but translated into spiritual terms." (Lec. of Dec. 15, 1906, in The Christian Mystery) With such profound topics there are always further questions to explore, but in trying to clarify this parable of seed's "death and resurrection, I hope I have not introduced too many new problems. Sincerely, Malcolm Ian Gardner From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 13 03:22:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA18726 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 03:22:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA05761; Thu, 13 May 1999 03:02:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13301 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 01:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.231]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990513051541.LAJA7471167.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 17:15:41 +1200 Message-ID: <373A6002.696B@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:15:46 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: NZ GE victory Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 910 Gareth >From what I understand (and I just checked with an industry person) the yellow kiwifruit is hybridised as a result of TE Puke Hort Dept developments over many years. They apparantly have some 5000 varieties they work with and recently released these two, the Temura and Chenensis. There has been quite a hoo ha in kiwifruit circles since Janet Fitzsimmons (Green MP) blew the whistle on GE kiwifruit experiements underway. The KMB (Zesperi) has made several statements denying any GE commercial crops and subsequently made the recent statement dropping any funding of such research projects. This does not mean private research is not taking place. But with Zesperi being a single desk seller it does give hope that as long as a world resistence grows kiwifruit can lead the way to a GE free NZ. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 13 12:21:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA25432 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 12:21:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06765; Thu, 13 May 1999 12:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27732 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:18:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00CB111A@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:22:58 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 13 May 99 10:23:45 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 13 May 99 10:23:23 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:23:17 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF: Resurrection & BD Priority: normal In-reply-to: <1.5.4.16.19990512222504.1b079816@swva.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <550B7DB7F8D@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 911 > This raises the question of what the difference is between > "dormant-dead" seeds and "truly dead" seeds, i.e., between those that sprout > and those that rot. I suspect that this has something to do with the _form_ > of the seed; if this is damaged, it cannot be resurrected. In this > connection I think of the passage in the Gospel of St. John where importance > is attached to the fact that on the Cross on Golgotha Jesus' legs were not > broken by the soldiers (which was done to the two other people who were > crucified at the same time in order to hasten their death) because Jesus had > already died (Jn 19:36). Therefore the form of Jesus' skeleton--the real > symbol of death--remained intact for the Resurrection. > "... what Paul expresses with the parable of the wheat seed takes place at > Christmas. If the little seed does not die in the earth, no new fruit can > arise. Old life passes away during the Christmas season, and new life > arises in its womb. From these days forward, the sap begins to rise in the > trees, new life flows forth, and the light begins to grow in the darkness > that had been increasing until then. This is what a Christian thinks, but > translated into spiritual terms." (Lec. of Dec. 15, 1906, in The Christian > Mystery) > > With such profound topics there are always further questions to > explore, but in trying to clarify this parable of seed's "death and > resurrection, I hope I have not introduced too many new problems. Dear Malcolm, I appreciate the time and thought you put into your post. I am always happy to see an analysis of either the bible or Steiner writings that can help me understand either as I find them so difficult to penetrate. I am wondering if, in the light of what you have already said, if you could elaborate for me more on the *meaning* of the crucifixion and resurection for post-Christ human life. I have heard the words of the evangelists ("Christ died for our sins" etc) but I have yet to make any sense of this in a way that is meaningful to me. I'm hoping you might be able to tell me something that clicks. Thank you, Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 13 12:21:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA25475 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 12:21:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06958; Thu, 13 May 1999 12:02:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04995 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:43:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.18.228]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Thu, 13 May 1999 16:49:04 +0100 Message-ID: <373AF4DC.50A0@cwcom.net> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:50:53 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts and growing pains References: <53C21F715D1@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 912 Anita - Thank you for your detailed response. Teaching at a tertiary level, I expected my students (allegedly adult or near-adult) to be motivated already: after all, a university student is there by choice and studies a small range of topics in which he/she supposedly has a particular interest. Given that, I nevertheless tried to transfer the information in as interesting, challenging and/or supportive a manner as I could. I raised Steiner-Waldorf methods because I've already met a number of its "products" and recognised that they seem to have got not only a better quality, but also a broader style of education. Having a professional interest, I'd like to know the general background and will explore the web-link which you kindly provided at the weekend, when I hope to have more time. Right now, it's the actual rather than the metaphorical soil preparation which is commanding all my attention! Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 13 13:19:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26894 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 13:19:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13228; Thu, 13 May 1999 12:58:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11088 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 12:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.136.26] (max14-29.stc.net [208.210.137.157]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA10808 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 12:38:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990512222504.1b079816@swva.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:54:43 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF: Resurrection & BD Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 913 Thanks! Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 Questions for Science: THE ATMOSPHERE. Why doesn't the Earth's warm air rise? Why is it so cold at the top of a mountain, i.e. nearer the Sun? Why in our houses is it warmer nearer the ceiling and colder at the floor, when an artificial source of heat is used? Why does marble expand with heat and why doesn't it contract again with cold? --Victor Schauberger From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 13 14:33:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28706 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 14:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22289; Thu, 13 May 1999 14:13:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21531 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 14:11:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00CB4B8F@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 13 May 1999 14:15:51 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 13 May 99 14:16:37 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 13 May 99 14:16:15 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:16:09 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts and growing pains Priority: normal In-reply-to: <373AF4DC.50A0@cwcom.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <554999871FD@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 914 > Anita - Thank you for your detailed response. Teaching at a tertiary > level, I expected my students (allegedly adult or near-adult) to be > motivated already: after all, a university student is there by choice > and studies a small range of topics in which he/she supposedly has a > particular interest. At the risk of stretching this thread too far, I will say that there has been massive education inflation in this country and what used to pass as a high school graduate now usually passes as a college graduate. As far as I can tell, most of undergrad is a rehash of what students were supposed to get in high school. I suppose that's why a high school education isn't acceptable for much more than a career flipping burgers anymore. Having a bachelor's today is the norm and not that special anymore. In my interactions with undergraduates, I'm often astounded by how much they don't know, and by the time they get to grad school, they usually only know a very narrow band of information. I was reading a book yesterday by a Carnegie Mellon professor of writing and he said that most of his students have read so few books in their lives that it's like they'd never read anything. The majority of the students must not be in the pitiful predicament (at least I hope not!), but there is a sizeable minority that is. If you don't see them in your classes, then it may be that they are dropping your class before you notice and/or hanging out in the easier "gut" classes. But believe me, there's plenty of hard pan that reaches the hallowed halls of tertiary learning! > Given that, I nevertheless tried to transfer the > information in as interesting, challenging and/or supportive a manner as > I could. I raised Steiner-Waldorf methods because I've already met a > number of its "products" and recognised that they seem to have got not > only a better quality, but also a broader style of education. Having a > professional interest, I'd like to know the general background and will > explore the web-link which you kindly provided at the weekend, when I > hope to have more time. I hope you enjoy your search and hope you'll share what interesting things you learn. > Right now, it's the actual rather than the > metaphorical soil preparation which is commanding all my > attention! Tony N-S. For every thing there is a season! Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 13 22:03:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07217 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 22:03:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29498; Thu, 13 May 1999 21:46:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA29337 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 21:43:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bio (kmidc67-94.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.94]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA17820 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 11:47:53 +1000 Message-ID: <004701be9dab$a7415e00$5e431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts and growing pains Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:28:37 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 915 Dear Anita, I am really enjoying your posts, and especially so as I recognise the Waldorf training in you. All my four kids went to Steiner Schools, and everyone picks them out straight away as being different and much deeper that others. The only problem I find is that they find other kids their age with general education, so lacking in general commonsense and knowledge and depth of thought. Must be something to it, as when my Daughter applied to Uni, but with a Waldorf Certificate and no State School qualifications, they asked her what subjects she had done for her last year. She named 12 subjects and they were totally blown away, as here the Students only do 6 at the most for final years. So she has a wonderful general education right across the board in humanities, science and physical and artistic. And she has learnt how to think and have a moral relationship to all she does. Only problem is she is feeling really frustrated at Uni, by the poor teaching and lack of breadth in the curriculum. She will come out with a B.Sc in Systems Agriculture, but know very little in the farming area. She wants to work in teaching Biodynamics, so we shall have to find other ways for her to learn in a more practical way. ( She has been doing 3 months on a BD farm, but feels she needs more backup at Uni.) My eldest son is at Uni studying to be a Steiner Teacher, after years of being a chef, but is really enjoying it at present, as he only started this year. No.2 son is a Carpenter and house builder, who works with native timbers and builds wooden boats in his spare time! No.4 daughter is studying Natural Therapies and is at present being a Nanny to a Steiner family who have just lost their mother. I guess you could say I am proud of my little lot, but I thank their Steiner School education for instilling such strong values and understanding and purpose of life. It is so important for new parents to see the positive outcomes of those who have been through Steiner education, as often it is very difficult when you have a lot of opposition from family when sending your kids to"that strange school!" It sure is "education for life" and it is great to see your work. Thankyou, Cheryl Kemp. -----Original Message----- From: Anita Graf (Staff) To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, 14 May 1999 4:21 am Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts and growing pains > Anita - Thank you for your detailed response. Teaching at a tertiary > level, I expected my students (allegedly adult or near-adult) to be > motivated already: after all, a university student is there by choice > and studies a small range of topics in which he/she supposedly has a > particular interest. At the risk of stretching this thread too far, I will say that there has been massive education inflation in this country and what used to pass as a high school graduate now usually passes as a college graduate. As far as I can tell, most of undergrad is a rehash of what students were supposed to get in high school. I suppose that's why a high school education isn't acceptable for much more than a career flipping burgers anymore. Having a bachelor's today is the norm and not that special anymore. In my interactions with undergraduates, I'm often astounded by how much they don't know, and by the time they get to grad school, they usually only know a very narrow band of information. I was reading a book yesterday by a Carnegie Mellon professor of writing and he said that most of his students have read so few books in their lives that it's like they'd never read anything. The majority of the students must not be in the pitiful predicament (at least I hope not!), but there is a sizeable minority that is. If you don't see them in your classes, then it may be that they are dropping your class before you notice and/or hanging out in the easier "gut" classes. But believe me, there's plenty of hard pan that reaches the hallowed halls of tertiary learning! > Given that, I nevertheless tried to transfer the > information in as interesting, challenging and/or supportive a manner as > I could. I raised Steiner-Waldorf methods because I've already met a > number of its "products" and recognised that they seem to have got not > only a better quality, but also a broader style of education. Having a > professional interest, I'd like to know the general background and will > explore the web-link which you kindly provided at the weekend, when I > hope to have more time. I hope you enjoy your search and hope you'll share what interesting things you learn. > Right now, it's the actual rather than the > metaphorical soil preparation which is commanding all my > attention! Tony N-S. For every thing there is a season! Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 14 18:14:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA29321 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 18:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22955; Fri, 14 May 1999 17:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21518 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 17:34:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from dirkers@juno.com) by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EALZ6DXG; Fri, 14 May 1999 17:38:56 EDT To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 09:39:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Spring Wildcrafting Message-ID: <19990514.163318.12438.5.Dirkers@juno.com> References: <001701be9991$de2ab100$929dafc7@mroboz.infoserve.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0 From: Christopher P Dirkers Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 916 Thank you very much for the herb web-site! ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 14 23:11:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA01932 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 23:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10875; Fri, 14 May 1999 22:52:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from horeb.pcusa.org (horeb.pcusa.org [206.115.64.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10737 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 22:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.ecunet.org ([206.115.64.10]) by horeb.pcusa.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-0U10L2S100V35) with SMTP id org for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 22:52:18 -0400 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 22:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts and growing pains To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: KRIS_JOHNSON.parti@ecunet.org (KRIS JOHNSON) Message-ID: <9905142250.aa22949@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: KRIS_JOHNSON.parti@ecunet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 917 Reply from Kris Johnson to #99.6639523 From bio@midcoast.com.au("Cheryl Kemp" ), Fri May 14 at 11:28a Cheryl, Your children sound wonderful. I'm not familiar with Waldorf training/Steiner schools. Where could I find out more about them? Kris --- Original Note #99.6639523 From bio@midcoast.com.au("Cheryl Kemp" ), Fri May 14 at 11:28a --- >I am really enjoying your posts, and especially so as I recognise the >Waldorf training in you. All my four kids went to Steiner Schools, and >everyone picks them out straight away as being different and much deeper >that others. The only problem I find is that they find other kids their age >with general education, so lacking in general commonsense and knowledge and >depth of thought. Must be something to it, as when my Daughter applied to > Kris Johnson gardening in Northwest Ohio, near lake Erie (Zone 6) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 15 08:33:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA06446 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 08:33:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01065; Sat, 15 May 1999 08:17:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00965 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 08:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.73] (pm3shep2-163-73.intrepid.net [209.190.163.73]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA02176 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 08:18:22 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 19:44:12 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: OFF: WTB: beeswax Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 918 Please e-mail me with all, if any , info regarding beeswax which you may produce. I am a business & will be interested to purchase quantities. I thank you in advance Arthur Petrossian arthur petrossian From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 15 09:50:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07373 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 09:50:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05397; Sat, 15 May 1999 09:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05270 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 09:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.96]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990515132404.FOWQ7471167.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Sun, 16 May 1999 01:24:04 +1200 Message-ID: <373D7577.7A34@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 01:24:07 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Study:L3 Astrality. Plants and Biodynamics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 919 In acknowledgement of the Perigee and New Moon A question that has mulled around in my thoughts and images for some time is: What is the nature and quality, or function of the Astrality in the Biodyanmic understanding of plant growth? In lecture 3 we are presented with an image of the Astrality and its relationship to Nitrogen as being a central element, which actually drags the oxygen and etheric body into contact with the physical body. Yet in lecture seven and elsewhere we are presented with a picture of the Astrality not actually entering the plant, other than in poisionous plant and legumes. This leaves us with the image of the plant just touching the Astrality at flowering. Likewise we are presented with much information about plant growth being the result of the four ethers, with little or no reference to the working of Astrality in relation to the ethers. Our conversations seem to happily accept that the ego is drawn into the soil via the silica winter process and cow manure and that from the soil it then works upwards through the upright stem formation to finally be present in seed formation, yet the Astrality does not appear to be understood or discussed in the same manner. Just as we had an apparent contradiction arising between lectures 2 and 6 over the workings of the planets, do we have another one in lectures 3 and 7 over the working of the Astrality? Can anyone shed some light on this? Many thanks Glen Atkinson. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 15 12:00:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08309 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 12:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11760; Sat, 15 May 1999 11:44:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11689 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 11:43:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.3.225]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sat, 15 May 1999 16:49:41 +0100 Message-ID: <373D96B1.6DB2@cwcom.net> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 16:45:53 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts / Steiner-Waldorf education References: <9905142250.aa22949@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 920 Kris Johnson enquired where he can find out more about Steiner-Waldorf education. Although I know nothing about the subject, I'm in a position to reply right now because I've been following up Anita's suggestion of: www.bampfa.berkeley.edu/exhibits/steiner/weblinks.html This gives links to a wide range of Steiner-related web pages, of which I found the most informative were ANTI Steiner-Waldorf! See: www.dandugan.com/waldorf/articles/Eugenie_Scott_94.html and ... articles/Weird_Science.html I tried Bob & Nancy's book shop (= Waldorf shop), but found it difficult and time-consuming to navigate, because one has to return to the server to select each item on the menus: there is a fuller list on: www.steinercollege.org/bstore/currguide1.html and the whole lot displays at one request. Sorry, I'm such an incompetent that I don't know how to provide these as links! Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 15 12:24:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08574 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 12:24:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16411; Sat, 15 May 1999 12:10:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16218 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 12:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp192.cy-net.net [208.21.195.1]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA31652 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 11:13:45 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BE9EC2.80CB3E40@FLYLO>; Sat, 15 May 1999 11:03:03 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE9EC2.80CB3E40@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: Steiner-Waldorf education Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:00:39 -0500 Encoding: 8 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 921 Tony, your note shows the sites up as clickable links, so you did fine. I was just wandering Allan's pages (Josephine Porter Institute) looking for some of the books from Steiner also. http://igg.com/bdnow/menu.html If anyone has any specific recommendations, I would like to read them, and I suspect a few others would too. thanks martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 16 11:16:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA21653 for ; Sun, 16 May 1999 11:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06301; Sun, 16 May 1999 11:00:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06146 for ; Sun, 16 May 1999 10:58:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.18.218]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sun, 16 May 1999 16:04:24 +0100 Message-ID: <373EDEFA.2067@cwcom.net> Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 16:06:34 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Steiner-Waldorf education Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 922 Thanks, Martha and Pam, for your near-instant responses; I never cease to be amazed at the speed of e-mail ...and the helpfulness of BDNow! subscribers. I, too, would be grateful for recommendations of an overall, general account of S-W methods and objectives from amongst the massive book-list that I culled from the Steiner College site. Bob & Nancy suggested the original Steiner lectures but - whilst there is something to be said for going to the horse's mouth (apologies to RS) - I'd really prefer to know how it's working out today. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 16 17:25:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA26486 for ; Sun, 16 May 1999 17:25:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA27560; Sun, 16 May 1999 17:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f213.hotmail.com [209.185.130.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA27414 for ; Sun, 16 May 1999 17:05:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 70107 invoked by uid 0); 16 May 1999 21:10:04 -0000 Message-ID: <19990516211004.70106.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 206.74.2.117 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 16 May 1999 14:10:03 PDT X-Originating-IP: [206.74.2.117] From: "Connie Gilbert" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 16:10:03 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 923 >We know of course that the Sun and the Moon play an important role in >the >life of the all things on the planet, and it is accepted in >Astrology that >the planets influence our lives. But what of the >vegitable Kingdom? >Wouldn't it also be true that the planets have an >influence on the Plant >as well as the Human? > >The reason I ask is because I believe that I have found evidence in some >ancient cultures who had mastered agriculture to suggest that the cycles of >Venus were used. > >Vincent. > I am not sure if it is the planets themselves that influence life on Earth, or if the planets represent certain energies that come into play. That is a study that could take me all my life, however, and I would rather be outside working in my garden than worry about the 'whys'. I think the sun and moon are used extensivly because their energies influence growth, but I would think you can use other planets along side them. First, you would have to decide what plantatary energies you want to work with. Anyone that is familiar with the basice of astrology could probably figure it out.My knowledge of the subject is pretty basic, so I will attempt some logical insights. Since the planets move slowly you might take their aspects with the sun and moon into consideration instead of what zodiac sign they are in. Usually conjunctions ( 0 to 2 degrees apart)and trine (28 to 32 degrees apart) are considered favorable, while oppositions (178 to 182 )and squares ( 88 to 92 degrees )are unfavorable. A flowering plant might be planted when Venus was favorable (beauty). Jupiter is associated with abundance and expansion, planting food crops when the Moon was in conjunction with Jupiter would be favorable. Harvesting grain would probably be best done when Saturn was favorable, you would want to restrict growth at this time and let the crop dry. Anyone have any other ideas? What evidence have you found on the cycles of Venus? Sounds interesting. Connie _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 17 12:06:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13006 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 12:06:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27724; Mon, 17 May 1999 11:49:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27401 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 11:47:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.3.146]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Mon, 17 May 1999 16:53:28 +0100 Message-ID: <37403BF6.14CE@cwcom.net> Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 16:55:34 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts References: <19990516211004.70106.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 924 Vincent - Have you seen Ernst Michael Kranich's book "Planetary influences upon plants" (Bio-Dynamic Literature, Wyoming, 1984)? It covers both solar-system astronomy and botany pretty well, with a host of references to Venus _inter alia_. It's nevertheless a fairly small paperback (182 pages) and quite inexpensive (I bought it here in Britain so what I paid, if I could remember, would be irrelevant to you). Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 17 14:12:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16323 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 14:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12357; Mon, 17 May 1999 13:51:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10874 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 13:40:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00CD53A5@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 17 May 1999 13:44:21 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 17 May 99 13:45:19 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 17 May 99 13:45:04 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:45:04 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF: Waldorf/Steiner education Priority: normal In-reply-to: <004701be9dab$a7415e00$5e431ccb@bio> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <5B417584B44@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 925 Dear Cheryl, Thank you for such a nice post. Personally, I feel like I'm walking on egg shells when the topic comes up of comparing Waldorf-educated people with other-educated people since not only is this a touchy subject, but because it must be appreciated how much other factors in a person's upbringing also effect his/her personality and being. It is also tricky for me to assess and distinguish between the effects of my wonderful mother and my wonderful school. Certainly there was also some synergy there. I will, however, go out on a limb to say that there IS something qualitatively different and discernable about Waldorf educated people, though I'm not yet ready to make many (just a few!) judgements on that. I first noticed the difference when I started babysitting at 12 years old. My first charge was a lovely boy of 3 yrs who was full of spunk and creativity, but when he started school at 4, he changed dramatically and no longer wanted to draw and play in the way that he had before and though he remained a lovely person, his demanor had changed for good. As I continued to babysit for both Waldorf and public school kids, I could always tell quickly which was which, especially if the parents were actively supportive in providing a more "Waldorfian" environment (little to no tv, plenty of books and art supplies, no tv-inspired toys, more natural and nutritious foods). Probably the home environment as much as the school environment was to credit. In general, the Waldorf kids were calmer and more focused and readily took to games of imagination that many of their public school counterparts were less inclined to participate in. There also seemed to be more innocence and awe among the Waldorf school kids. As an adult, I think what I notice is that conversations with Waldorf-educated peers are more likely to dive deep easily and without appology or embarassment and that one does not have to expain oneself many times as much as in conversations with others who are not accostomed to talking that way. Though depth is not limited to a Waldorf education by any means, those who are inclined to this way of thinking and being in the world are nurtured in this respect right from the start at Waldorf schools and often arrive at places that others must struggle longer to acheive. Though I am not clear as to the consistency in educations accross Waldor/Steiner schools, I will say that mine, at my particular school in Sacramento, CA was top rate, and I too felt VERY disappointed in general by the level of teaching at college, even though I went to a very prestigious, private one (there were a few exceptions). In general, I think it's fair to say that you aren't likely to find a group of teachers more dedicated and morally committed to their work than at a Waldorf school, because it is certainly not the money or any other "perks" which keep them there and their standards for one another are very high. I see plenty of places for valid criticism and improvement in the Waldorf/Steiner education system, but so far it is the best system that I have encountered. You are very right about prospective parents needing to see the positive outcomes. Many new parents are scared by aspects such as the way reading skills are postponed or the way other areas of education are given so much more emphasis than our society is used to seeing, and even parents like my mother who needed no more proof than to see and feel the environment once or twice for themselves to become a life-long, ardent supporters, there is a lot of societal and extended family flack to deal with. I can tell you, we always had plenty of naysayers around and my mother was constantly put in a position to defend this choice of schools. My mother was a public school teacher herself and a single mother without a lot of extra cash, but she never wavered on this as a priority, for which I am very thankful. There are certainly plenty of us around as living proof that delayed reading, crocheting, gardening and painting don't ruin a person for the "real world" as is often imagined. But the Waldorf experience can set one's standards very high which can make the "real world" disappointing in many instances. But that is part of life. Congratulations on your family and thanks for sharing your experience. Sincerely, Anita > Dear Anita, > I am really enjoying your posts, and especially so as I recognise the > Waldorf training in you. All my four kids went to Steiner Schools, and > everyone picks them out straight away as being different and much deeper > that others. The only problem I find is that they find other kids their age > with general education, so lacking in general commonsense and knowledge and > depth of thought. Must be something to it, as when my Daughter applied to > Uni, but with a Waldorf Certificate and no State School qualifications, they > asked her what subjects she had done for her last year. She named 12 > subjects and they were totally blown away, as here the Students only do 6 at > the most for final years. So she has a wonderful general education right > across the board in humanities, science and physical and artistic. And she > has learnt how to think and have a moral relationship to all she does. Only > problem is she is feeling really frustrated at Uni, by the poor teaching and > lack of breadth in the curriculum. She will come out with a B.Sc in Systems > Agriculture, but know very little in the farming area. > She wants to work in teaching Biodynamics, so we shall have to find other > ways for her to learn in a more practical way. ( She has been doing 3 months > on a BD farm, but feels she needs more backup at Uni.) > My eldest son is at Uni studying to be a Steiner Teacher, after years of > being a chef, but is really enjoying it at present, as he only started this > year. > No.2 son is a Carpenter and house builder, who works with native timbers and > builds wooden boats in his spare time! No.4 daughter is studying Natural > Therapies and is at present being a Nanny to a Steiner family who have just > lost their mother. I guess you could say I am proud of my little lot, but I > thank their Steiner School education for instilling such strong values and > understanding and purpose of life. > It is so important for new parents to see the positive outcomes of those who > have been through Steiner education, as often it is very difficult when you > have a lot of opposition from family when sending your kids to"that strange > school!" It sure is "education for life" > and it is great to see your work. > Thankyou, > Cheryl Kemp. > -----Original Message----- > From: Anita Graf (Staff) > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Friday, 14 May 1999 4:21 am > Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts and growing pains > > > > > Anita - Thank you for your detailed response. Teaching at a tertiary > > level, I expected my students (allegedly adult or near-adult) to be > > motivated already: after all, a university student is there by choice > > and studies a small range of topics in which he/she supposedly has a > > particular interest. > > At the risk of stretching this thread too far, I will say that there > has been massive education inflation in this country and what used to > pass as a high school graduate now usually passes as a college > graduate. As far as I can tell, most of undergrad is a rehash of > what students were supposed to get in high school. I suppose that's > why a high school education isn't acceptable for much more than a > career flipping burgers anymore. Having a bachelor's today is the > norm and not that special anymore. In my interactions with > undergraduates, I'm often astounded by how much they don't know, and > by the time they get to grad school, they usually only know a very > narrow band of information. I was reading a book yesterday by a > Carnegie Mellon professor of writing and he said that most of his > students have read so few books in their lives that it's like they'd > never read anything. The majority of the students must not be in the > pitiful predicament (at least I hope not!), but there is a sizeable > minority that is. If you don't see them in your classes, then it may > be that they are dropping your class before you notice and/or hanging > out in the easier "gut" classes. But believe me, there's plenty of > hard pan that reaches the hallowed halls of tertiary learning! > > > Given that, I nevertheless tried to transfer the > > information in as interesting, challenging and/or supportive a manner as > > I could. I raised Steiner-Waldorf methods because I've already met a > > number of its "products" and recognised that they seem to have got not > > only a better quality, but also a broader style of education. Having a > > professional interest, I'd like to know the general background and will > > explore the web-link which you kindly provided at the weekend, when I > > hope to have more time. > > I hope you enjoy your search and hope you'll share what interesting > things you learn. > > > Right now, it's the actual rather than the > > metaphorical soil preparation which is commanding all my > > attention! Tony N-S. > > For every thing there is a season! > > Anita > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 17 16:39:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA23157 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 16:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02388; Mon, 17 May 1999 16:22:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA29721 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 15:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00CD75C8@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 17 May 1999 16:03:21 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 17 May 99 16:04:19 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 17 May 99 16:04:08 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 16:04:07 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts / Steiner-Waldorf education Priority: normal In-reply-to: <373D96B1.6DB2@cwcom.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <5B668CC4D5C@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 926 > Kris Johnson enquired where he can find out more about Steiner-Waldorf > education. Although I know nothing about the subject, I'm in a position > to reply right now because I've been following up Anita's suggestion of: > www.bampfa.berkeley.edu/exhibits/steiner/weblinks.html > This gives links to a wide range of Steiner-related web pages, of which > I found the most informative were ANTI Steiner-Waldorf! See: > www.dandugan.com/waldorf/articles/Eugenie_Scott_94.html > and ... articles/Weird_Science.html > I tried Bob & Nancy's book shop (= Waldorf shop), but found it difficult > and time-consuming to navigate, because one has to return to the server > to select each item on the menus: there is a fuller list on: > www.steinercollege.org/bstore/currguide1.html > and the whole lot displays at one request. > Sorry, I'm such an incompetent that I don't know how to provide these > as links! Tony N-S. There is a lot of *anti* Waldorf info at that site (imo, this shows the natural democratic and free speech tendencies of the anthroposophical community). Most of this is the propaganda of one particular guy (can't recall name at the moment) who apparently had a run-in with the LA school (I think) when his kid got so out of control he was kicked out (and from my Waldorf experience, it usually isn't something small that gets you kicked out) and now the guy is on a vendetta-rampage. He raised a big bruhaha in Sacto a little over a year ago which I was able to witness and it basically involved fear-mongering to largely illiterate immigrant families who were being offered the chance to change thier failing public school into a Waldorf-methods "magnet" school. He had people believing that Waldorf advocates everything from conformity to Satanism and canibalism. It was really outrageous. Anyway, as I said, there are some responsible critisms to be made (on which I might share my ideas if that is of interest), but much of this anti- stuff is hyperbole. Here is the way that my mother used to describe Waldorf education to others: It is a system of education whereby the stages of development of the child are taken very seriously. In the early years, the child is still in a naive, wide-eyed, imaginative state (anthros would say, s/he is still in the process of incarnating to his/her body) and this needs to be respected. Therefore the curriculum is based on fairy stories, artistic endeavors, and the like. No hard acedemic stuff yet. (Anthros would say, if his head forces are developed too early, his body cannot properly be incarnated and his full development is disturbed.) Reading and writing are brought in slowly and through the use of picures and imagery (the alphebet takes like a month to cover, letter by letter) until by about 3rd grade all the children are expected to be reading and writing fluently. As there faculties begin to take shape, the fairy tales turn to the Old Testament, Norse and Greek myths, etc. meanwhile all the other subjects are also taking shape according to the understanding of child development. When they reach the rebellious years of 7th grade, they learn about the Roman empire, etc. She would also point out that Waldorf education is well rounded which means that art, music, and foreign language are given as much validity as math and sports and there would never be a consideration of cutting any of these out as is so common in the public schools.. (This was her favorite part since she was a frustrated artist and felt the sting of Draconian curriculum cuts as the public school pendulum swung from a more liberal interpretation of curriculum needs to JUST THE THREE R's. And apparenly "sports" always starts with an "R"....) Along with a more detailed explanation of the flow of the curriculum through the years, I think it's also important to explain "main lesson" and to explain that except for one class on the history of philosophy in 12th grade, anthroposophical studies as such are NEVER taught to the students. Waldorf schools are not perochial (though they do allow the teaching of the Bible, as well as the religious stories of many of the worlds religions, world myths, as well as evolution and other modern "scientific" theories). Waldorf teachers do not *teach* anthroposophy, they teach *through* anthroposophy. I'd be happy to share anything I know with whoever is interested. I may be very biased, but I'm a lot easier to understand than most of the anthro books out there! I can't give you much in the way of understanding Steiner's writings (ugh! would that I could!) but I can tell you about my experience of the practical side of it. Best of luck in your investigations! Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 17 18:17:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA25356 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 18:17:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12680; Mon, 17 May 1999 18:01:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04357 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 16:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.161.218]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990517204517.WDPH7623210.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 08:45:17 +1200 Message-ID: <37407FE5.7349@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 08:45:25 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts References: <19990516211004.70106.qmail@hotmail.com> <37403BF6.14CE@cwcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 927 Tony Nelson-Smith wrote: > > Vincent - Have you seen Ernst Michael Kranich's book "Planetary > influences upon plants" (Bio-Dynamic Literature, Wyoming, 1984)? > It covers both solar-system astronomy and botany pretty well, with > a host of references to Venus _inter alia_. It's nevertheless a > fairly small paperback (182 pages) and quite inexpensive (I bought > it here in Britain so what I paid, if I could remember, would be > irrelevant to you). Tony N-S. Vincent Also have a read of "The Working of the Planets and the Life Processes in Man and Earth" by B Lievegeod. A most interesting book on the planets influence in plant growth and the BD preparations. Contributors to this list have commented they believe Lievegeods work is incomplete, however I do not remember anyone ever elaborating. Would anyone care to substantiate this stantement? cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 17 18:17:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA25379 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 18:17:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12897; Mon, 17 May 1999 18:02:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from russian-caravan.cloud9.net (russian-caravan.cloud9.net [168.100.1.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05507 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 16:46:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cloud9.net (mtoro.dialup.cloud9.net [168.100.205.209]) by russian-caravan.cloud9.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F128D76451 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 16:48:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37407F04.99131075@cloud9.net> Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 16:41:40 -0400 From: Mark Santoro Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" Subject: (no subject) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 928 Could someone explain to me if using clover on asparagus beds would work well? Could the amount of nutrients taken up by the clover be somehow circumvented so as not to damage the asparagus? Besides using plastic, which has its limitations, and weeding, not practical for large areas, I am not sure as to the best method for large beds. Any recommendations are highly appreciated. Mark From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 17 20:22:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA28061 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 20:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23627; Mon, 17 May 1999 20:04:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA23446 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 20:02:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bio (kmidc67-92.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.92]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA23407 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 10:07:11 +1000 Message-ID: <000001bea0c2$3ed50500$5c431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts and growing pains Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 18:58:22 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 929 Dear Kris, I am in Australia, so I am not too familiar with your US Steiner Schools, but I am sure someone else (Christine ?) and help you with this question. Well worth any trouble to get them into a Steiner school. People move and change jobs just to get their kids there! It becomes a whole life for the whole family, Best wishes, Cheryl. -----Original Message----- From: KRIS JOHNSON To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, 15 May 1999 1:00 pm Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts and growing pains >Reply from Kris Johnson to #99.6639523 From bio@midcoast.com.au("Cheryl Kemp" ), Fri May 14 at 11:28a > > > >Your children sound wonderful. I'm not familiar with Waldorf training/Steiner schools. Where could I find out more about them? > >Kris > >--- Original Note #99.6639523 From bio@midcoast.com.au("Cheryl Kemp" ), Fri May 14 at 11:28a --- > >>I am really enjoying your posts, and especially so as I recognise the >>Waldorf training in you. All my four kids went to Steiner Schools, and >>everyone picks them out straight away as being different and much deeper >>that others. The only problem I find is that they find other kids their age >>with general education, so lacking in general commonsense and knowledge and >>depth of thought. Must be something to it, as when my Daughter applied to >> > > >Kris Johnson >gardening in Northwest Ohio, near lake Erie (Zone 6) > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 18 06:22:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA06163 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 06:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA28161; Tue, 18 May 1999 06:04:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA28066 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 06:01:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from neil ([202.27.181.133]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990518100850.NXJC7869945.mta1-rme@neil> for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 22:08:50 +1200 Message-ID: <37407266.39FC@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 07:47:50 +1200 From: linda&neilkerr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Waldorf/Steiner education References: <5B417584B44@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 930 Reading all the posts about the Waldorf/Steiner education, I feel quite envious. I live in a small town in New Zealand and there is only one local 'normal' school. No other kind of education for hundreds of miles... Linda From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 18 09:04:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA08337 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 09:04:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06186; Tue, 18 May 1999 08:48:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06121 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 08:47:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.136.26] (max11-1.stc.net [208.210.136.1]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA24346 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 08:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37407F04.99131075@cloud9.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 08:53:36 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: (no subject) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 931 >Could someone explain to me if using clover on asparagus beds would work >well? Could the amount of nutrients taken up by the clover be somehow >circumvented so as not to damage the asparagus? Besides using plastic, >which has its limitations, and weeding, not practical for large areas, I >am not sure as to the best method for large beds. Any recommendations >are highly appreciated. >Mark Dear Mark, Considering that asparagus thrives in tall grass (fescue) where birds planted the seed in unmowed banks on my farm, I see no reason why asparagus wouldn't grow in clover. As for nutrients, clover would probably provide nitrogen, which is one of the things asparagus needs most. Sounds to me like it's worth trying. Best Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 Questions for Science: THE ATMOSPHERE. Why doesn't the Earth's warm air rise? Why is it so cold at the top of a mountain, i.e. nearer the Sun? Why in our houses is it warmer nearer the ceiling and colder at the floor, when an artificial source of heat is used? Why does marble expand with heat and why doesn't it contract again with cold? --Victor Schauberger From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 18 12:05:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA12401 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 12:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23847; Tue, 18 May 1999 11:50:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23551 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 11:47:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.16.70]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Tue, 18 May 1999 16:53:26 +0100 Message-ID: <37418D7B.562E@cwcom.net> Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:55:39 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts / Steiner-Waldorf education References: <5B668CC4D5C@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 932 Anita - Thank you for that concise explanation of the basis of Steiner- Waldorf education. It appears very sound to me. The *anti* stuff I was referring to includes an article by Eugenie Scott of the National Center for Science Education entitled "Waldorf schools teach odd science, odd evolution" which is actually quite complimentary about much of the approach but - I suppose quite predictably - criticises the lack of conventional science and its "spiritual" rather than "materialistic" basis. A Skeptical Enquirer article "Weird science at Steiner school", apparently inspired by Dan Dugan (is he your man?), froths at the mouth a little more. Both are hung up on the nature of the elements, planetary influences etc and both pick up on "racist" comments by RS (written in 1922!). However, as each goes into some detail about what they regard as wrong with the curriculum, one can pick up quite a lot of information about it. I was amused by the comment that pious people consider the Waldorf approach objectionable because it isn't religious enough, whereas unbelievers are offended because it is too clearly religious. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 18 15:19:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19789 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 15:19:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11945; Tue, 18 May 1999 15:01:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10324 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 14:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00CE304B@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 18 May 1999 14:49:39 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 18 May 99 14:50:39 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 18 May 99 14:50:20 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:50:13 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts / Steiner-Waldorf education Priority: normal In-reply-to: <37418D7B.562E@cwcom.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <5CD2EB57C0D@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 933 > Anita - Thank you for that concise explanation of the basis of Steiner- > Waldorf education. It appears very sound to me. > The *anti* stuff I was referring to includes an article by Eugenie > Scott of the National Center for Science Education entitled "Waldorf > schools teach odd science, odd evolution" which is actually quite > complimentary about much of the approach but - I suppose quite > predictably - criticises the lack of conventional science and its > "spiritual" rather than "materialistic" basis. A Skeptical Enquirer > article "Weird science at Steiner school", apparently inspired by Dan > Dugan (is he your man?), froths at the mouth a little more. Both are > hung up on the nature of the elements, planetary influences etc and both > pick up on "racist" comments by RS (written in 1922!). However, as each > goes into some detail about what they regard as wrong with the > curriculum, one can pick up quite a lot of information about it. I was > amused by the comment that pious people consider the Waldorf approach > objectionable because it isn't religious enough, whereas unbelievers are > offended because it is too clearly religious. Tony N-S. > Yes, that is funny, but not at all uncommon, I think. Waldorf gets it from both sides. The problem with criticising Steiner's writings (in the case of 'racism') is that his writings are more obtuse than... well, let's just say that they are very difficult to understand even for the very intelligent and spiritually inclined. There's a reason why people study his writings ad infinitum as they do with other difficult works like the Bible and Egyptian hyroglyphics :-) Anyway, I try to take it all in stride and if I don't like something of Steiner's I read I figure 1) I might not be understanding it correctly or 2) he's wrong. And thankfully I would have no qualms about expressing either 1 or 2 to any of my former Waldorf teachers, though I would not take this approach with an evangelist if 1 or 2 related to the Bible. As to science teaching in a Waldorf school, from my experience it's a mixed bag. There is definately stuff in the curriculum that you won't find on any other school's agenda (lots by Goethe, some by Steiner himself), but I agree with the justification given: there will be lots of time to learn the conventional stuff in college. In my experience, the most important foundation for science that I received was the ability to reason and think. It just so happens that in my school I had an awsome biology teacher (so that in college I skipped introductory classes and jumped right into intermediate and advanced), but our chemistry/physics teacher (in high schooler parlance) sucked! I felt this as a major glitch in my "information transfer" link. Nevertheless, I let a friend in college convinced me to take the advanced introduction to chemistry (with the caveat that she would help me along the way) and though it was a major stretch (more than I would recommend) I passed it with a high "B" There are also at least two guys from my class of 25 who have gone on to get advanced degrees in engineering, and both of them work as software engineers now. Conversely, the class validictorian who was offered a shot at Yale (and declined) is now (after an advanced degree in Celtic history or something like that) in her 3rd year of Eurythmy school with 2 more years to go. I am currently gathering info on my high school class members, and I can tell you that it is an amazing variety of professions and lifestyles. Perhaps just due to the nature of this group of people, most of us have gotten advanced degrees at this point. The point is, whatever may be "weird" about the science or anything else advanced in the Waldorf school, it does not keep one from thinking, progressing, and finding success in a variety of fields post-Waldorf. And yes, Dan Dugan is the man I referred to! Thanks for sharing your observations of what you read, Tony! (You are obviously capable of reading between the lines!!) Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 18 16:36:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA22654 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 16:36:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA23128; Tue, 18 May 1999 16:19:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22932 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 16:17:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00CE455F@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 18 May 1999 16:21:56 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 18 May 99 16:22:55 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 18 May 99 16:22:35 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:22:26 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF: Waldorf/Steiner education Priority: normal In-reply-to: <37407266.39FC@xtra.co.nz> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <5CEB85A7F9C@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 934 > Reading all the posts about the Waldorf/Steiner education, I feel quite > envious. I live in a small town in New Zealand and there is only one > local 'normal' school. No other kind of education for hundreds of > miles... > > Linda If you have children (the younger the better) and you are interested in giving them some of the benefits of what a Waldorf education has to offer, there's much that you can do at home to foster this, regardless of what school they go to. Don't underestimate the effects of homelife!! Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 18 17:39:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24115 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 17:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00270; Tue, 18 May 1999 17:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA00160 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 17:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.136.26] (max11-21.stc.net [208.210.136.21]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA16382 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 17:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37418D7B.562E@cwcom.net> References: <5B668CC4D5C@agecon.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:28:51 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF: Sahara deserts / Steiner-Waldorf education Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 935 Dears, You know, Anita, your post on waldorf education was excellent, and I couldn't have done as well. I want to, with your permission, send it out to all my food coop members. As for "wierd science" science is pretty wierd. I didn't used to think so as a biochem major on the dean's list. But there's really a lot of phenomena that go ignored by conventional scientists, and you've got to figure that the reason science rewrites itself every decade or so is because it does NOT know it all, and in fact knows very little. A seer such as Steiner penetrated much farther into the nature of the universe than either the conventional science of his time or the conventional science of our time. I've kept up with it, despite farming this past 23 years, and conventional science keeps getting closer to Steiner's vision all the time--though it's still far away. Imagine if your kids could get the view of science that Steiner had in a Waldorf school? They'd be miles ahead of the rest of the human race. I've found the most difficult part of my education was unlearning the false concepts I learned earlier on. As I put it to a local politician, running for the school board. "I've got a question for you. What would you do to see that we've got the best teachers teaching at the earliest grade levels where they can do the most good?" That's where we learn to learn--at the earliest grade levels. Really we do so at our mother's breast. And ideally mothers should all receive teachers' training. Ah! We patch this world together constantly. Would that we would plan and use the wisdom available to raise our progeny into much more than what we are. I wonder when this logic will appeal. Best, Hugh Lovel >Anita - Thank you for that concise explanation of the basis of Steiner- >Waldorf education. It appears very sound to me. > The *anti* stuff I was referring to includes an article by Eugenie >Scott of the National Center for Science Education entitled "Waldorf >schools teach odd science, odd evolution" which is actually quite >complimentary about much of the approach but - I suppose quite >predictably - criticises the lack of conventional science and its >"spiritual" rather than "materialistic" basis. A Skeptical Enquirer >article "Weird science at Steiner school", apparently inspired by Dan >Dugan (is he your man?), froths at the mouth a little more. Both are >hung up on the nature of the elements, planetary influences etc and both >pick up on "racist" comments by RS (written in 1922!). However, as each >goes into some detail about what they regard as wrong with the >curriculum, one can pick up quite a lot of information about it. I was >amused by the comment that pious people consider the Waldorf approach >objectionable because it isn't religious enough, whereas unbelievers are >offended because it is too clearly religious. Tony N-S. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 Questions for Science: THE ATMOSPHERE. Why doesn't the Earth's warm air rise? Why is it so cold at the top of a mountain, i.e. nearer the Sun? Why in our houses is it warmer nearer the ceiling and colder at the floor, when an artificial source of heat is used? Why does marble expand with heat and why doesn't it contract again with cold? --Victor Schauberger From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 19 03:54:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA03714 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 03:54:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA02590; Wed, 19 May 1999 03:38:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA02513 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 03:36:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bio (kmidc67-76.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.76]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA26000 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 17:41:35 +1000 Message-ID: <000201bea1ca$dc355120$4c431ccb@bio> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: OFF: Waldorf/Steiner education Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:06:36 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 936 Hey Linda, One of the schools that my kids went to was in NZ, Rudolf Steiner School, Hastings! Best school of them all I reckon. There is also one in Auckland and in Wellington and Christchurch and quite a few smaller preschools and primary schools in Hamilton etc. If you want to get your kids in just do it, then life will work out for you!. WE have a farmer in the BD Assoc. here, who was 1000's of Kms from a school and wanted his kids there, so he leased his farm, and gradually got the job as School gardener, now he is teaching BD at the School and recently came to our Prep making day with one of his year 12 Students, who is doing Biodynamics for his Waldorf Certificate. Where there is a will, there is a way I say! Phone 06878 7363 at the RSSHastings to find out your nearest Steiner School and go see them all. (P.S.. They have a Centre for Anthroposophic Adult Education in Havelock North, (near Hastings) where you can do the One Year BD Diploma or teacher training and Artistic therapies.etc.) Go see and learn. A good contact in BD and education would be Peter Proctor, phone 06 876 4405. Best wishes, Cheryl Kemp. -----Original Message----- From: linda&neilkerr To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, 18 May 1999 8:11 pm Subject: Re: OFF: Waldorf/Steiner education >Reading all the posts about the Waldorf/Steiner education, I feel quite >envious. I live in a small town in New Zealand and there is only one >local 'normal' school. No other kind of education for hundreds of >miles... > >Linda > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 19 05:41:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA04451 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 05:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA05609; Wed, 19 May 1999 05:23:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA05487 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 05:21:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([210.55.146.12]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990519092836.YJPT7869945.mta1-rme@default> for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 21:28:36 +1200 Message-ID: <37428491.6348@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:29:53 +1200 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ONF: [OFA] Dairy farm disease enquiry References: <01BEA202.C44A71C0.sjmusgrave@clear.net.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 937 Hi Bdlist I recieved this through a local organic news forum. Can any one help them please as I am not a stockman Thankyou Tony Robinson Rambler Flowers Levin New Zealand Simon J. Musgrave wrote: > > From: Organic Federation of Australia Inc [SMTP:ofa@netspace.net.au] > Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 5:18 PM > To: ofa@netspace.net.au > Subject: [OFA] Dairy farm disease enquiry > > Message received via COGS > > -----Original Message----- > From: McIntosh, Anne > > Dear Sir / Madam, > > I am writing with a query regarding the use of antibiotics to treat > mastitis in dairy cattle on organic dairy farms. One of the dairy farms > that is registered with the NSW Dairy Corporation has had since December > 1998, an increasing level of Somatic Cell Counts (SCC). The SCC is a > count of white blood cells, which is an indication of mastitis and > sometimes, other infections in the cow. The usual treatment for this is > a shot of antibiotics, usually a penicillin based one. However, the > farmer in question does not wish to use antibiotics as he is trying to > use organic farming practices. > > My question is, do the use of antibiotics go against the principles of > organic farming, and if so, do you have any other suggestions as to how > to treat this problem without if affecting organic farm certification in > future years? > > I can be contacted by return email or on 02 65523000 > > Thankyou. > > Regards > > Anne McIntosh > District Officer > NSW Dairy Corporation > > Scott Kinnear > > Chairperson > Organic Federation of Australia > C/- 452 Lygon St > East Brunswick > Victoria 3057 > Australia > > Ph 61 3 9386 6600 > Fax 61 3 9384 1322 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 19 07:17:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA04925 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 07:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA08650; Wed, 19 May 1999 07:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA08514 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 06:56:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.91] (pm3shep2-163-91.intrepid.net [209.190.163.91]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA13921 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 07:02:05 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 06:44:43 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Hugh Courtney: "Preview of 1999" Celestial Events and their effect on Plants Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 938 :s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 19 07:22:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA04954 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 07:22:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA08839; Wed, 19 May 1999 07:06:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA08771 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 07:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp326.cy-net.net [208.21.195.135]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA08097 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 06:10:12 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEA1BC.CA0B14C0@FLYLO>; Wed, 19 May 1999 05:59:42 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEA1BC.CA0B14C0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: ONF: [OFA] Dairy farm disease enquiry Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 05:59:33 -0500 Encoding: 15 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 939 I looked into the organic bylaws for our state for livestock, and the 'occasional' use of medications such as antibiotics can't be denied. The farmer would need to segregate the cow at milking (of course, he's probably doing this anyhow), and discard her milk probably even somewhat longer than the withdrawl time suggests. If herbal preparations aren't doing the trick, I'd hate to see a good milking animal be ruined. Have they tried sterile saline infusions? (Which should be accepted by organic standards.) Sometimes, this will help clear up the mass of udder infection so that whatever is used (whether organic or not) can get to the actual udder walls and work better. Generally, they'd infuse the cow's infected quarter, milk the rest of the herd, then get her in to milk her out. This goes on for 2 - 3 days, then use the standard medications. Be sure to check with your local vets before trying anything suggested over the internet. good luck! martha (who came back in this life as a milkmaid.) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 19 14:26:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA14168 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 14:26:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27667; Wed, 19 May 1999 14:10:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27529 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 14:09:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00CEF004@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 19 May 1999 14:14:07 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 19 May 99 14:15:05 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 19 May 99 14:14:39 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 14:14:31 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF: science paradigms -long Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <37418D7B.562E@cwcom.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <5E4977C42C0@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 940 Hugh writes: > Dears, > > You know, Anita, your post on waldorf education was excellent, and I > couldn't have done as well. I want to, with your permission, send it out to > all my food coop members. Thank you for such a nice complement. You may surely have my permission. > As for "wierd science" science is pretty wierd. I > didn't used to think so as a biochem major on the dean's list. But there's > really a lot of phenomena that go ignored by conventional scientists, and > you've got to figure that the reason science rewrites itself every decade > or so is because it does NOT know it all, and in fact knows very little. Quite so. I wanted to call to y'all's attention to some very interesting work now being undertaken by a group of mostly agriculture economics professors who are trying to get economics (and this is extendable to science) to enter a new paradaigm. They have started this with their "Declaration of Interdependence." They blend a lot of spiritual ideals with ideas of economics (which Steiner did too, in case anyone doesn't know that). I can give more info on this (like web sites) if anyone is interested. On this thread in particular, I would like to share a post of John Ikerd's (one of those afore-mentioned professors) which was recently posted to the sustainable ag network (Sanet). He did not give me permission to cross-post, but this is publically viewable elsewhere, so I'm taking the liberty. This was written in answer to a Harold Reetz (mentioned in first sentence) who claimed that as an extension worker for 25 years, he thinks that modern ag is getting a bum rap and that the sustainable ag people are anit-science to be against GMO's and the like. Here it is, I think it's a lovely post: Sanet; One benefit of getting older for people like Harold Reetz and myself is that we can brag about how many years of experience we have. I am going on 35 years of experience in industry and extension work in agriculture, and I find it increasing difficult each year to defend either industry or extension. I think that both groups sincerely believe in what they are doing, but both have become increasingly close-minded to anything that seems to threaten their traditional ways of thinking and doing things. There are some notable exceptions to the rule, but I haven't seen too many. The sustainable agriculture movement seems to represent such a threat to both industry and extension. Sustainable agriculture in not anti-science, anti-technology, or anti-progress. But answering the obviously legitimate questions of sustainability will require a fundamentally different kind of science than the accepted science of today. A sustainable agriculture will require technologies that work in harmony with nature rather than continue the current futile attempts to conquer nature or at least bring it under control. Perhaps sustainable agriculture can be accurately labeled as anti-industry, but only because the new science and new technology of sustainability will result in something fundamentally different from the industrial model which has dominated the past two centuries. Real progress means moving beyond the past and present to a future that is fundamentally better. Sustainability is not about going back, but rather is about truly going forward -- instead of remaining stuck developing new technologies to support models, paradigms, and worldviews that are hopelessly out of date. Worldviews -- perceptions of how the world works -- are not matters of fact, but rather are matters of belief. You can't prove that any particular worldview is correct and another is false because all methods of proof are based on specific worldviews. All science starts with a foundation of beliefs - with values. Our values reflect our beliefs about how we think the word works - our worldview. The currently accepted "scientific method" is based one specific worldview. It has been widely accepted because a lot of "scientists" - over the past four centuries or so - have believed in that particular worldview. But, a lot of people believing in something doesn't necessarily make it true. A lot of people believed the clerical scholars of old possessed the only true worldview before this thing we now call science was conceived. People back then accepted this new thing called science because a lot of what the clerics were telling them just didn't make sense anymore. Today, a lot of people are becoming skeptical of, if not outright rejecting, what we now label as science because it simply doesn't make sense anymore. We need a new science that makes sense in a world where our common sense tells us that we humans are both capable of and inclined toward destroying the living global ecosystem of which we ourselves are a part. The new, still evolving, worldview is one of a living, dynamic, interrelated global ecosystem operating according to inviolate principles of nature - including human nature. Thus, the new science must be a science that is appropriate for such a living system, of which people are but a part. The old science, even according to its creators, applies only to "dead" things. The old science views people as something apart from the rest of the world. The new science must value people, but people as a part of the larger whole. The new technologies must create opportunities for people to lead productive successful lives, rather than simply replace people with computers and robots. New science and technologies must work in harmony with nature, including human nature, rather than attempt to conquer and control nature for our sole benefit. Forcing people off of farms for purely economic reasons makes sense to those who hold the old worldview, but not to those of us who now have a fundamentally different view of reality. "Freeing" people from farming - or from anything else that requires thinking or any manual work - makes sense to those who hold the old worldview, but doesn't make sense to those of us who now hold different values. Attempting to dominate nature, and to thereby control markets and peoples' livelihoods, through use of GMOs may make sense to those who hold the old worldview, but doesn't make sense to a lot of the rest of us. And attempting to "feed the world with pesticides and plastic," as advocated by Denis Avery and his followers in the Land Grant system, may make sense to "old-think scientists" but it doesn't make sense to those who believe we must use new ways of thinking. The world's hungry are no more likely to be well fed in the future that than they have been in the past as long as we continue to view technology, society, economics, and politics as separate components of some sophisticated machine, rather than as critically interrelated organs of a living system. Once a person is able to shake off the old "dead world" belief system, it becomes obvious that the science and technologies that support the industrialization of agriculture do not make sense anymore. The industrial system, quite simply, is not sustainable - no matter what new technologies may be developed to support it. We don't necessarily need to be ashamed of what has been done, or even what we may have done, in the past. People generally do the best they can, given their current level of understanding of reality. But, we shouldn't refuse to open our minds to the possibility of new paradigms, new models, even new worldviews, simply because we have spent most of our lives believing and working in ways that may now, quite logically, be out of date. [...] . John Ikerd Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 19 16:24:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA17261 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:24:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12750; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:07:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.243]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA12202 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:04:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-150.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-150.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.150]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA51670 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 20:09:23 GMT Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 20:09:23 GMT Message-Id: <199905192009.UAA51670@out5.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: RE: ONF: [OFA] Dairy farm disease enquiry Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 941 Just a thought: I have discovered that in pre-antibiotic days there was quite a lot of success with Colloidal Silver for treating bacteria and viruses. Apparently non-toxic to mammals (anyway in the quantities recommended) as long as it is prepared properly. Taken by mouth, it would probably deal to the digestive bacteria ( but anibiotics do anyway). I have no experience using it on animals, though there must be some literature on the subject. Lynton At 05:59 AM 5/19/99 -0500, you wrote: >I looked into the organic bylaws for our state for livestock, and the >'occasional' use of medications such as antibiotics can't be denied. The >farmer would need to segregate the cow at milking (of course, he's probably >doing this anyhow), and discard her milk probably even somewhat longer than >the withdrawl time suggests. If herbal preparations aren't doing the trick, >I'd hate to see a good milking animal be ruined. >Have they tried sterile saline infusions? (Which should be accepted by >organic standards.) Sometimes, this will help clear up the mass of udder >infection so that whatever is used (whether organic or not) can get to the >actual udder walls and work better. Generally, they'd infuse the cow's >infected quarter, milk the rest of the herd, then get her in to milk her >out. This goes on for 2 - 3 days, then use the standard medications. Be >sure to check with your local vets before trying anything suggested over >the internet. good luck! >martha (who came back in this life as a milkmaid.) > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 19 18:17:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA20037 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 18:17:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA24570; Wed, 19 May 1999 18:01:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f41.hotmail.com [209.185.131.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA21524 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 17:30:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 19716 invoked by uid 0); 19 May 1999 21:37:14 -0000 Message-ID: <19990519213714.19714.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.230.25.27 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 19 May 1999 14:37:14 PDT X-Originating-IP: [205.230.25.27] From: "Connie Gilbert" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ONF: [OFA] Dairy farm disease enquiry Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:37:14 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 942 I don't know about cows, but when I was nursing my oldest I read Dr. Spock's recommendations. He said that on the first sign of mastitis massage the whole area with warm olive oil and try to milk it all out, drink plenty of liquids and keep treating the breast this way for a few days. I figured mammals are mammals so I used this method on a cat that had a swollen breast. I may be worth a try on a cow. Connie > > count of white blood cells, which is an indication of mastitis and > > sometimes, other infections in the cow. The usual treatment for this is > > a shot of antibiotics, usually a penicillin based one. However, the > > farmer in question does not wish to use antibiotics as he is trying to > > use organic farming practices. > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 19 21:20:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA23905 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 21:20:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA22190; Wed, 19 May 1999 21:03:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01600 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 19:14:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 209.143.11.46 (hils-ras1-2-cs-18.dial.bright.net [209.143.11.46]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id TAA10176 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 19:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <374351D4.69E1@bright.net> Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:05:40 -0500 From: Marilyn Hiestand Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: DEA spraying effect on Plants References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 943 Has anyone heard of the intent of the Dept. of Justice, DEA, to spray Roundup, 2,4-D, and triclopyr from helicopters throughout the US and Hawaii to eradicate Cannibis? If you are interested you can request the Supplement to the Environmental Impact Statement that outlines the impact to plant life from Jack Edmundson USDA 4700 River Road, Unit 149 Riverdale, MD 20737 If you don't like the idea of having your farm sprayed, you might want to contact your senator and/or congressman. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 19 21:21:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA23917 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 21:21:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA22624; Wed, 19 May 1999 21:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15777 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 20:46:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from neil ([202.27.178.214]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990520005324.ELEZ7869945.mta1-rme@neil> for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 12:53:24 +1200 Message-ID: <3743599D.62EB@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:38:53 +1200 From: linda&neilkerr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ONF: [OFA] Dairy farm disease enquiry References: <19990519213714.19714.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 944 My cow had mastitis last spring, just after she had her calf. One of the things to try if you don't want to use antibiotics is to confine her with only access to plenty of water (no food) for two days and in the meantime milk her out completely at least twice a day. After the two days give her some hay, but not to much and keep up the milking out for another two days. After this it should clear up. Linda From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 19 22:46:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA25144 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 22:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09166; Wed, 19 May 1999 22:28:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09061 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 22:27:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.172.47.246] (207-172-47-246.s55.as2.kgp.pa.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.47.246]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id WAA18321 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 22:32:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: patters@pop.erols.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001901be9292$90318ec0$6c6d6ccb@default> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:33:03 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Ted Patterson Subject: Re: electric power lines Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 945 Dear BDNow listers, Thank you to all who replied to my questions about farming under high-tension lines. I greatly appreciate the warnings, advice, experience, instructions, and website referrals. I frankly don't know yet if growing under the power lines is my only option and if I would attempt it. As always, Hugh Lovel's comments gave me something to reflect on. No doubt he is right: it would be an interesting project for an accomplished practitioner. But, as Bob Dylan said, "I don't have those kinds of things known to me yet." And for me, it'll probably be a long time coming. Let me see what all the possibilities are. Thanks again for your help. -Ted At 8:49 AM +1000 4/30/99, Gwenda Robb wrote: >.... Doubtlessly power lines would effect anything living / growing thing >in the near vicinity. At 1:45 PM -0400 4/28/99, Hugh Lovel wrote: >What does it mean to "avoid at all costs?" Basically high tension wires >should be avoided if possible. But what are all costs? If I had no other >place I'd certainly grow under the lines. But that's not normally very >desirable. >>Basically you want to create a living organism, and doing it under high >tension lines is stressful, but nowhere near impossible. It just means >you've got to be attentive and do a much better than ordinairy job.... >[snip, some great instructions] >I would advise this. If what you have to work with is under the lines--work >with it. We are dealing with abnormal stresses these days. We have to learn >how to do this. Most folks know that under these high tension lines there >are abnormal stresses. The question is not how to blow up all these lines. >They are here for some time to come. The question is how to endure under >them. So we must find out how. Which makes your project very, very valuable >indeed. This is simple practical advice. Follow it if you will, and keep in >touch if you want to. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 19 22:55:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA25259 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 22:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09760; Wed, 19 May 1999 22:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09571 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 22:35:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.96]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990520024248.FQZX7869945.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 14:42:48 +1200 Message-ID: <374376A9.25FE@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:42:49 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Peppering advice Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 946 To All Has anyone had experience with peppering perrennial plants such as shrubs or other perrennials. Does the parent bush need to be removed as well? What is the existing plants growth habit after the peppering has been applied? Most of my experience with peppering plants has been with annuals to date. The perrennials we have done we have removed the existing plants. cheers Glen Atkinson. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 19 23:10:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA25487 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 23:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10350; Wed, 19 May 1999 22:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10219 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 22:45:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.153]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990520025246.FUGO7869945.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 14:52:46 +1200 Message-ID: <374378B7.2558@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:52:47 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Aussie Dairy Farm enquiry Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 947 Tony Seeing as though this enquiry has come from Victoria I would suggest they contact Bev Smith of Fish Creek, Victoria. They have a wonderful dairy farm with little disease problems. Bev and Her husband ( forgot his name right now) are well known in organic circles so they should not have too much trouble finding them. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 20 05:04:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA29573 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 05:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA28769; Thu, 20 May 1999 04:44:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA28675 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 04:42:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ihug.co.nz (p38-max8.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.17.116.230]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA17321 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 20:47:53 +1200 Message-ID: <3743CB98.4DDCAF40@ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:45:12 +1200 From: I & K Buckingham Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ONF: [OFA] Dairy farm disease enquiry References: <01BEA202.C44A71C0.sjmusgrave@clear.net.nz> <37428491.6348@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 948 Rambler wrote: > > Hi Bdlist I recieved this through a local organic news forum. Can any > one help them please as I am not a stockman >>an increasing level of Somatic Cell Counts (SCC). The SCC is a > > count of white blood cells Friends Somatic cells is not the same as lactation mastitis. It is far more difficult to cure within a short period. A three fold approach is generally needed. Use of homoeopathic / herbal remedies, improvement of the farm organism ( re balance ), and the breeding of suitable stock. Tony pass my address on and I am happy to help where I can. Regards Ian Buckingham Maungatawhiri New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 20 15:29:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA11655 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:28:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26176; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:12:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14873 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 13:45:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.168]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990520175240.LMGO7869945.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 05:52:40 +1200 Message-ID: <37444BEA.3AF9@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 05:52:42 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: BD & organics in NZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 949 What does it tell you about the state of Biodynamics and organics in New Zealand - a small country of 3 million people - when the BDA and BioGro ( the organic registration mark) have their AGMs on exactly the same day some three hundred miles apart. Interestingly the BDA has a representative on the BioGro board, I would have thought to liasion on such matters, so this sort of thing did not happen. It would not be such an issue if Demeter had a substantial presence in NZ. Many BD producers have no choice about using BioGro as it is often the only NZ mark recognised by exporting companies and their markets. In dumbstruck wonder Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 20 15:29:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA11661 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26072; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14848 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 13:45:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.168]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990520175232.LMGF7869945.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 05:52:32 +1200 Message-ID: <37444BE1.4A0A@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 05:52:33 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Study: Astrality and plants -part 1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 950 As there appears to be no rush to answer the question I posed recently I will dare to present a few ideas I have had on this matter. It appears to me from our discussions and others I have had over the years that while we have a highly developed understanding of the physical and etheric workings of plants we seem to have this idea that as plants do not incarnate an Astral body it does not play much of a role in plant growth. Interestingly though we seem quite happy to acknowledge the role of the ego in cosmic silica inspired upright stem growth leading to seed formation. We do see flowering and poisons as the plant being touched by the Astral but little more. One of the passaages that is quoted in support of this understanding is the second paragraph on pg 126 of SFFRA. "Now, we still need to take a look at the so-called plant diseases. Actuary, they should not be called plant diseases, because abnormal processes that occur in plants are not diseases in the same sense as they are in animals. (We will understand this difference better when we come to tak about the animal kingdom.) Most of all plant diseases are not the same as disease processes in human being. Actually illness is not possible without the presence of an astral body, which in an animal or a human being is connected with the physical body by means of the etheric body. There is a certain standard of normalcy for this connection, and most illnesses come about when the astral body unites unusualy intensely with the physical body or some particular physical organ; that is, when the etheric body does not provide enough padding, so that the astral body pushes its way into the physical body more strongly than usual. Now, since a plant does not contain an actual astral body, the particular way of being ill that is possible with animals and humans simply does not appear with plant. We must be quite aware of this fact and then try to understand what actually can cause plants to become ill." I agree with all that is said here. However like so much of RS work it can do with careful interpretation. Firstly this paragraph is about plant diseases. RS says plant diseases do not arise in the same manner as human or animal diseases as the astral body is not internalised. He then goes on in the following paragraphs and describes how plant diseases arise essential due to an overly active etheric process. ( he does leave room for some discussion of the words 'Cosmic forces' in that discussion - which ones?) I suggest though that the process he discribes above do take place with plants and that while plant diseases do not arise, pest attack does. The following lines "most illnesses come about when the astral body unites unusually intensely with the physical body or some particular physical organ; that is, when the etheric body does not provide enough padding, so that the astral body pushes its way into the physical body more strongly than usual." are a wonderful picture to have of the bodies relationship. In a human or animal there are all sorts of expressions of this process. Pain being an initial one, while bacterial infection, pulpitations of the heart, asthma, intestinal worms, flatulance and so on arise as the process continues. In plants the astral body (and ego) live outside the plant. This does not mean they are inactive, it means they work from outside inwards and that we should probably see the plant as not stopping at the edge of its leaves and fruit, but look to also 'see' the astral body which surrounds it. While many of us may not see it, it does not means it is not there. In lecture seven we are told insects are a manifestation within the astral body of plants. So seeing insects buzzing about your plants is seeing the plants astrality. Just as the 'quality' of the birds in an environment is showing us the astrality of that bio-region. So I suggest that the process outlined above, does occur with plants and that the etheric does recede, ( lessening its cushioning effect) due to low water, strong light and warmth etc and that as it recedes the Astral body does press too strongly into the physical body of the plant. This appears as greater leaf differentiation followed by a rush to flower and an almost immediate increase in insect attack. The insect attack can be defeated by reversing this process. As we already know if we can increase the level of cosmic matter/etheric forces in our soil through increasing the humus levels we provide the most secure form of the etheric cushion possible, and pest attack reduces accordingly. Watering, mulching, liquid manuring and prep. application all work to the same end too. to be continued (copyright Garuda Trust 1999) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 20 16:02:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA12529 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:02:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00195; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:46:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26527 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:15:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp401.cy-net.net [208.21.195.210]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05798 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 14:20:20 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEA2CA.3D486240@FLYLO>; Thu, 20 May 1999 14:08:30 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEA2CA.3D486240@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: precursor of things to come? Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:08:18 -0500 Encoding: 12 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 951 Our local newspaper is usually very pro-technical anything. (Texas A&M lives here, after all.) But, an article came out today about an alarming side of GE seed, already surfacing. "Pollen from a widely planted, laboratory-designed strain of corn can kill monarch butterflies. Monarch caterpillars eating milkweed dusted with pollen from the altered corn ate less, grew more slowly, and died more quickly. After 4 days, 44 % of them had died vs none of those who had not fed on the pollen." Goes on to state that Monarchs are not an endangered species, but "environmentalists fear that the genetically engineered corn may also be doing other unseen damage to the food chain." 5/20/99, Bryan-College Station Eagle, "Nation Briefs" martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 20 16:19:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA12948 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03854; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:04:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cougar.ssi.stratus.com (cougar.ssi.stratus.com [198.97.42.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03602 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:03:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by cougar.ssi.stratus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20466 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:06:38 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <01BEA2CA.3D486240@FLYLO> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:06:37 -0400 (EDT) Organization: Society for Real Time Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Charlie Hodgson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: RE: precursor of things to come? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 952 The story made the front page of today's Atlanta Constitution. (The full story was on page B-6, but the synospsis was around 3 column inches on the front page) On 20-May-99 Martha Wells wrote: > Our local newspaper is usually very pro-technical anything. (Texas A&M > lives here, after all.) But, an article came out today about an alarming > side of GE seed, already surfacing. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 20 16:20:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA12984 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:20:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA04004; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garnet.sover.net (garnet.sover.net [209.198.87.53]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03645 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bdl (pm2a7.ben.sover.net [207.136.200.71]) by garnet.sover.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA18205 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:08:28 -0400 (EDT) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) bdl from pm2a7.ben.sover.net [207.136.200.71] 207.136.200.71 Thu, 20 May 1999 16:08:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <009f01bea2fb$fa77d180$15c888cf@bdl> From: "B. David Lively" To: Subject: Re: precursor of things to come? Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:04:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 953 Martha, Where can I get a copy of that article? TIA Dave B. David Lively 3H Farm Bennington, Vermont bdl@sover.net Visit **Dairy Action** at http://www.digital.net/milk Join the Dairy Action Discussion List: http://www.digital.net/milk/joindadl.htm Nancy H. Lively "May you live all the days of your life" -----Original Message----- From: Martha Wells To: 'Biodynamic Now' Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 3:53 PM Subject: precursor of things to come? >Our local newspaper is usually very pro-technical anything. (Texas A&M >lives here, after all.) But, an article came out today about an alarming >side of GE seed, already surfacing. >"Pollen from a widely planted, laboratory-designed strain of corn can kill >monarch butterflies. Monarch caterpillars eating milkweed dusted with >pollen from the altered corn ate less, grew more slowly, and died more >quickly. After 4 days, 44 % of them had died vs none of those who had not >fed on the pollen." Goes on to state that Monarchs are not an endangered >species, but "environmentalists fear that the genetically engineered corn >may also be doing other unseen damage to the food chain." 5/20/99, >Bryan-College Station Eagle, "Nation Briefs" >martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 20 16:36:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA13364 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:36:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA07347; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:20:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand4.global.net.uk (sand4.global.net.uk [194.126.80.248]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07207 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p68s04a01.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.132.105] helo=raithby.globalnet.co.uk) by sand4.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10kZMq-0003kc-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 20 May 1999 21:24:37 +0100 Message-ID: <37446E7D.C2B11D76@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:20:13 +0100 From: ALISON EADES X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNow Subject: Himalayas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 954 Dear BDers I had the fortune to visit Bhutan recently to do some work with the Ministry of Agriculture. I discovered that astrology plays a very active role in farming throughout the country. Nearly all 'villages' (so spread apart its difficult to see them as villages) have an astrologer, a sort of lay monk. He can be approached for many reasons, including health, charts on the birth of a child, and farming. In some places one family may be told the auspicious days for planting, transplanting, and weeding of rice, for example, and the others follow their example. When starting planting they must also face a particular direction. And, of course, there are celebrations and offerings to the deities of the valleys, hills, etc. This is not some small group of farmers - this is nearly the whole of Bhutan since 98% of the population are involved in agriculture. The astrologer uses several tools by which to make his decisions and determines the day, time of day and sometimes the direction to face. In very remote places (several days walk from the nearest road) I was told farmers still follow nature and tend to their cultivations according to the blossoming of a certain flower, or arrival of a certain bird for example. I would like to quote an unedited article produced by a Bhutanese colleague of mine just to give a flavour of what is going on: "One requisite etiquette that farmers adhere to either for the sake of custom or with robust conviction, is to refer to the astrologer to fix the date, day, time and direction to begin sowing or transplanting their crops. Religious beliefs show a need to refer to astrology at the beginning of sowing any seed to ensure that the crops are free of pests, that there is timely rainfall, that farmers are saved unnecessary trouble in maintaining their crop, and that they will be blessed with a good harvest. Good harvests have been interpreted as due reward for the appropriate worship of deities and in having followed the correct astrological indications. In the same way, calamities have been viewed as the result of failing to please deities and following the wrong timings. Farmers say that deities are in full control of agriculture and we will experience national prosperity and success if we worship them well. Astrology assists us in the spiritual communication of man and our deities. The Bhutanese term for referring to astrology is Zaka Tani which is literally translated as ‘day star observation’. All predictions by the astrologers are therefore based on a combination of the star, day and time. For rice cultivation, reference to astrology is done according to the various stages of crop growth. For instance, crop husbandry follows the following stages: nursery, transplantation, and crop-cutting. Activities for these stages start only after the announcement of timings fixed by the astrologers. The timings include: date, day, hour, and direction. Sowing seed and the rice nursery: raising rice in the nursery is always done on the first month of the Bhutanese calendar. Sowing seed begins according to timings fixed by the astrologer. When its time to start the nursery, farmers go to the village astrologer individually to find out the timings. The date, day, time and direction are all used to calculate the timings. ... Farmers in Paro also believe that reference to astrology is only required for local rice varieties; whereas in Punakha, reference is required for all varieties. According to the predictions, individual household go to the fields and start to sow precisely at the time fixed by the astrologer. The most vital factor, before a farmer can spray the first handful of seed on the ground, is that he faces the predicted direction. Facing the right or wrong direction is believed to determine all ensuing patterns of crop growth. According to one astrologer, the direction is determined by water jugs. There are two water jugs, one full to the brim with holy water and known as Buum Teir and the other empty and known as Bum Toum. They face each other in the four directions of East, North, West and South. The farmer has to face the direction of the filled jug when sowing the first seed on the ground. Once this formality has been completed, the rest of the seed can be sown in any suitable way preferred by the farmer. The Astrologer in Serigang said that the location of this filled jug rotates clockwise, on a monthly basis, from one direction to the other. However, a farmer in Lakhu disputes this and says the filled jug rotates on a daily basis through the four directions." Of course, conventional agricultural research is making headway in Bhutan but I feel really hopeful that perhaps one country can strike the right balance and take the best of modern technologies and the best of traditional activities and beliefs to achieve a trully sustainable way of living on the land. One interesting point was the fact that people fully recognised the power of astrological information for traditional varieties but, for some reason, felt it didn't apply to the new rice varieties bred by scientists. No reason was given. Alison From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 20 16:52:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA13824 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:52:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09809; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09272 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp3.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.103]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA07850 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:35:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00ec01bea300$9277ba00$9c4b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: <37446E7D.C2B11D76@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Subject: Re: Himalayas Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:37:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 955 Alison This is so cool, I can hardly stand it... Were you lucky enough to get a copy of the calendar? Are the symbols quite different? Do you think you could persuade Allan to post a copy at the website, so we could see what it looks like? I just KNEW direction was so important...but that comes from a different philosophy. Now another cultural confirmation. And the clockwise/counterclockwise movement...how interesting. As an aside...I was always told to increase my garden growth always water in clockwise circular fashion...unless you wanted less growth (as in a lawn that needs mowing...go counterclockwise) And I've watched the cows head out into the pastures...they always head out in the morning to the North, swing through the woods near noon (for shade no doubt) and then east, then south...always clockwise...hmmm) It wasn't until I consciously made an effort to stop walking the pastures, counterclockwise, that I saw all sorts of NEW things out there (what I actually saw gets a bit "out-there", so I'll stop there)!! Anyway, thank you SO much for sharing this with everyone...its outstanding. Love Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: ALISON EADES To: BDNow Sent: Thursday, May 20, 1999 3:20 PM Subject: Himalayas > Dear BDers > > I had the fortune to visit Bhutan recently to do some work with the > Ministry of Agriculture. I discovered that astrology plays a very active > role in farming throughout the country. Nearly all 'villages' (so spread > apart its difficult to see them as villages) have an astrologer, a sort > of lay monk. He can be approached for many reasons, including health, > charts on the birth of a child, and farming. In some places one family > may be told the auspicious days for planting, transplanting, and weeding > of rice, for example, and the others follow their example. When starting > planting they must also face a particular direction. And, of course, > there are celebrations and offerings to the deities of the valleys, > hills, etc. > > This is not some small group of farmers - this is nearly the whole of > Bhutan since 98% of the population are involved in agriculture. The > astrologer uses several tools by which to make his decisions and > determines the day, time of day and sometimes the direction to face. In > very remote places (several days walk from the nearest road) I was told > farmers still follow nature and tend to their cultivations according to > the blossoming of a certain flower, or arrival of a certain bird for > example. > > I would like to quote an unedited article produced by a Bhutanese > colleague of mine just to give a flavour of what is going on: > > "One requisite etiquette that farmers adhere to either for the sake of > custom or with robust conviction, is to refer to the astrologer to fix > the date, day, time and direction to begin sowing or transplanting their > crops. Religious beliefs show a need to refer to astrology at the > beginning of sowing any seed to ensure that the crops are free of pests, > that there is timely rainfall, that farmers are saved unnecessary > trouble in maintaining their crop, and that they will be blessed with a > good harvest. > > Good harvests have been interpreted as due reward for the appropriate > worship of deities and in having followed the correct astrological > indications. In the same way, calamities have been viewed as the result > of failing to please deities and following the wrong timings. Farmers > say that deities are in full control of agriculture and we will > experience national prosperity and success if we worship them well. > Astrology assists us in the spiritual communication of man and our > deities. > > The Bhutanese term for referring to astrology is Zaka Tani which is > literally translated as 'day star observation'. All predictions by the > astrologers are therefore based on a combination of the star, day and > time. > > For rice cultivation, reference to astrology is done according to the > various stages of crop growth. For instance, crop husbandry follows the > following stages: nursery, transplantation, and crop-cutting. Activities > for these stages start only after the announcement of timings fixed by > the astrologers. The timings include: date, day, hour, and direction. > Sowing seed and the rice nursery: raising rice in the nursery is always > done on the first month of the Bhutanese calendar. Sowing seed begins > according to timings fixed by the astrologer. When its time to start the > nursery, farmers go to the village astrologer individually to find out > the timings. The date, day, time and direction are all used to > calculate the timings. ... > > Farmers in Paro also believe that reference to astrology is only > required for local rice varieties; whereas in Punakha, reference is > required for all varieties. According to the predictions, individual > household go to the fields and start to sow precisely at the time fixed > by the astrologer. The most vital factor, before a farmer can spray the > first handful of seed on the ground, is that he faces the predicted > direction. Facing the right or wrong direction is believed to > determine all ensuing patterns of crop growth. > > According to one astrologer, the direction is determined by water jugs. > There are two water jugs, one full to the brim with holy water and known > as Buum Teir and the other empty and known as Bum Toum. They face each > other in the four directions of East, North, West and South. The farmer > has to face the direction of the filled jug when sowing the first seed > on the ground. Once this formality has been completed, the rest of the > seed can be sown in any suitable way preferred by the farmer. The > Astrologer in Serigang said that the location of this filled jug rotates > clockwise, on a monthly basis, from one direction to the other. However, > a farmer in Lakhu disputes this and says the filled jug rotates on a > daily basis through the four directions." > > Of course, conventional agricultural research is making headway in > Bhutan but I feel really hopeful that perhaps one country can strike the > right balance and take the best of modern technologies and the best of > traditional activities and beliefs to achieve a trully sustainable way > of living on the land. One interesting point was the fact that people > fully recognised the power of astrological information for traditional > varieties but, for some reason, felt it didn't apply to the new rice > varieties bred by scientists. No reason was given. > > Alison > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 20 17:09:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14322 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 17:09:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11991; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11903 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:52:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp3.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.103]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA11690 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:54:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <015a01bea303$45e4bb40$9c4b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: Subject: Re: precursor of things to come? Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:56:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 956 And someone posted it at SANET...(from the NY times!) Pollen From Genetically Altered Corn Threatens Monarch Butterfly, Study Finds By CAROL KAESUK YOON ll around the country, farmers are about to finish sowing millions of acres of a genetically altered form of corn that protects itself from pests by producing a toxin in its tissues. But researchers report on Thursday that this increasingly popular transgenic plant, thought to be harmless to nonpest insects, produces a wind-borne pollen that can kill monarch butterflies -- a species that claims the corn belt as the heart of its breeding range. Researchers said that the laboratory study, conducted by a team from Cornell University, provides the first evidence that pollen from a transgenic plant can be harmful to nonpest species. As such, the study is likely to become part of the growing debate about whether genetically engineered crops may have unforeseen effects on the environment. Transgenic crops have proven tremendously popular with American farmers in recent years. This season the new pest-resistant corn, introduced by seed companies just three years ago, is being planted on an estimated 10 million to 20 million acres out of an 80-million-acre corn crop nationwide. Known as Bt corn, it carries a gene derived from a bacterium, Bacillus thuringiensis, that produces the Bt toxin, killing corn borer pests that try to eat the plant. The researchers fed monarch caterpillars leaves of milkweed, their only food, which had been dusted with Bt corn pollen, regular corn pollen or no pollen. Half of those fed Bt corn pollen died within four days, while all those fed regular corn pollen or no pollen survived. The study, published on Thursday in the journal Nature, was written by Dr. John E. Losey, an entomologist, Dr. Linda S. Rayor, a behavioral ecologist, and Maureen E. Carter, a biologist. The Bt toxin itself is already known to be lethal to many butterflies and moths. Researchers said this suggests that butterfly or moth species other than the monarch could be affected by the transgenic plant, particularly those that live on plants like milkweeds that are often found in and around corn fields and could be dusted by Bt corn pollen. But researchers note that the effect of Bt corn pollen on populations of wild insects is unknown. Academic researchers praised the study as a first step toward understanding a previously unsuspected risk. "Nobody had considered this before," said Dr. Fred Gould, insect ecologist at North Carolina State University. "Should we be concerned? Yes." Dr. John Obrycki, an entomologist at Iowa State University, called the new study "solid" and said: "You now have a novel means of distributing Bt toxins in the environment. This is a technology that's being promoted and we haven't really considered all the consequences." Representatives from Novartis Agribusiness Biotechnology, Monsanto and Pioneer Hi-Bred International Inc., the top sellers of Bt corn, challenged the significance of the findings for monarch caterpillars, also known as larvae, outside the laboratory. Researchers estimate that Bt corn is a product worth hundreds of millions of dollars annually. Taking issue with the methods and conclusions of the study, Rich Lotstein, vice president of public affairs for Novartis Agribusiness Biotechnology, said, "Even if Dr. Losey's results are real, which they could be, the exposure is still minimal, and the impact is extremely small, if any." Researchers, including the authors, said it is still unknown how much of an impact Bt corn pollen is having on wild monarch populations. "I would be very surprised if there are no monarch larvae being killed," Losey said. But he added, how many are being killed, "that's the big question." Researchers said they do know from a study published last year that it is the corn belt, which includes such states as Iowa, Illinois, Indiana and Ohio, that produces about half of the monarchs that migrate each year to Mexico. And across that geographic expanse, said Dr. Karen Oberhauser, an ecologist at the University of Minnesota, there was certainly potential for corn pollen and monarch caterpillars to cross paths. "There are a lot of monarch larvae around in July and August and that's when pollen is being shed," she said. "The timing is exactly wrong." How much milkweed is close enough to corn fields to be at risk of receiving a dusting of pollen is unknown. But as Dr. Marlin Rice, entomologist at Iowa State University, put it, in many heavily farmed states, "if you're a monarch, odds are you're going to be close to a cornfield." Monarchs are not considered endangered, but Dr. Lincoln Brower, a monarch biologist at Sweet Briar College in Sweet Briar, Va., said the butterfly faces a growing number of pressures. The No. 1 threat, he said, is still logging in the butterfly's winter resting grounds in Mexico. Other threats include roadside mowing and the use of herbicides on milkweeds. Whatever level of threat Bt corn pollen turns out to pose, it is almost certainly less damaging to monarchs and insect diversity in general than the spraying of insecticides. But Obrycki said that in many areas of the country, farmers do not typically spray for corn borer. Still others viewed the new study as a broader sign of the danger of transgenic crops and the need for tighter regulation. Dr. Margaret Mellon, director of the agriculture and biotechnology program at the Union of Concerned Scientists, said: "Why is it that this study was not done before the approval of Bt corn? This is 20 million acres of Bt corn too late. This should serve as a warning that there are more unpleasant surprises ahead." Dr. Phillip O. Hutton, chief of the microbial pesticides branch at the Environmental Protection Agency, which regulates the commercial availability of Bt corn, declined to comment on the new study, saying the paper had not yet gone through the agency's scientific review. In addition to Bt corn, the EPA has approved Bt potatoes and Bt cotton, both of which are commercially available. For the farmers, losses of monarch butterflies -- which neither help nor hurt crops -- may be hard to measure against the gains from this powerful new product. Previously, farmers had to scout their crops diligently for signs of the corn borer and spray at just the right time in an infestation to kill them. Now they can plant Bt corn and let the internally produced toxins do all the work. "It's an amazing technology," said David Linn, a corn and soybean farmer in Correctionville, Iowa, who plants Bt and regular corn. "Does it kill more monarchs or not? That's so far down on the list of things we have to decide about." From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 20 17:12:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14451 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 17:12:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12466; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:56:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA12406 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp3.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.103]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA12427 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:58:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <016401bea303$c0cad420$9c4b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: <37444BEA.3AF9@xtra.co.nz> Subject: Re: BD & organics in NZ Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:00:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 957 And you know...it was pointed out to me once that the US BDA has their meetings most usually during Mercury Rx...go figure... > What does it tell you about the state of Biodynamics and organics in New > Zealand - a small country of 3 million people - when the BDA and BioGro > ( the organic registration mark) have their AGMs on exactly the same day > some three hundred miles apart. Interestingly the BDA has a > representative on the BioGro board, I would have thought to liasion on > such matters, so this sort of thing did not happen. > > It would not be such an issue if Demeter had a substantial presence in > NZ. Many BD producers have no choice about using BioGro as it is often > the only NZ mark recognised by exporting companies and their markets. > > In dumbstruck wonder > > Glen A. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 20 17:24:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15310 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 17:24:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14224; Thu, 20 May 1999 17:09:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fep7.mail.ozemail.net (fep7.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.125]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14048 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 17:08:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (slmlb22p16.ozemail.com.au [203.108.30.144]) by fep7.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA00671 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 07:13:21 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <002701bea305$02bda6e0$901e6ccb@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: References: <374378B7.2558@xtra.co.nz> Subject: Re: Aussie Dairy Farm enquiry Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 07:09:09 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 958 I have printed out the request and posted it (snail mail) to Ron Smith. I do know he uses homeopathics. Regards Gwenda ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage To: Sent: Thursday, 20 May 1999 12:52 Subject: Aussie Dairy Farm enquiry > Tony > > Seeing as though this enquiry has come from Victoria I would suggest > they contact Bev Smith of Fish Creek, Victoria. They have a wonderful > dairy farm with little disease problems. Bev and Her husband ( forgot > his name right now) are well known in organic circles so they should not > have too much trouble finding them. > > Glen A. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 20 18:43:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA16867 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 18:43:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA22250; Thu, 20 May 1999 18:24:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA22112 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 18:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (whan-028.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.128]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03801; Fri, 21 May 1999 10:25:38 +1200 Message-ID: <001201bea30d$e5ca5f20$80f631ca@oemcomputer> From: "g&y bodle" To: "Roger Leitch" , "Ian Henderson" , "Fiona Davies" , "Fiona" , "David Wright" , "Cheryl Kemp" , "BD List" Subject: Fw: another virus Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:12:43 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEA372.76F94740" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 959 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEA372.76F94740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Poata To: Bernhard Schaefer ; Bradley Walker = ; dreaver@clear.net.nz ; = Fred Alder ; Gang fang = ; gareth bodle ; Hawaii = Ho Date: Friday, 21 May 1999 9:58 AM Subject: another virus ** HIGH PRIORITY **=20 Please forward to all friends on this message.=20 New Virus Warning=20 Someone is sending out a very desirable screen-saver, a Bug's Life=20 "BUGGLST.ZIP". If you download it, you will lose everything!!! Your = hard=20 drive will crash and someone from the Internet will get your screen = name=20 and password!=20 DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES !!!=20 IT JUST WENT INTO circulation yesterday, as far as we know. Please=20 distribute this message. This is a new, very malicious virus and not = many=20 people know about it.This information was announced yesterday morning=20 from Microsoft. Please share it with everyone that might access the = Internet.=20 Also do not open or even look at any mail that says "RETURNED OR UNABLE = TO=20 DELIVER". This virus will attach itself to your computer components and = render them useless.=20 Immediately delete mail items that say this. AOL has said that this is = a very dangerous virus and=20 that there is NO remedy for it at this time.=20 Mike Cummings=20 IBM Global Services=20 Site Manager - Texaco Denver Region=20 303/793-4008, Texnet 621-4008=20 FAX: 303/793-4557=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEA372.76F94740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Poata <poata@connected.net.nz>
= To:=20 Bernhard Schaefer <Bernhard.Schaefer@cellway.de= >;=20 Bradley Walker <brad@adrenalintv.co.nz>; = dreaver@clear.net.nz <dreaver@clear.net.nz>; Fred = Alder=20 <ferntree@ihug.co.nz>; = Gang fang=20 <fangang@public.szonline.net>;=20 gareth bodle <glend@igrin.co.nz>;=20 Hawaii Ho <hawaiiho@ihug.co.nz>
Dat= e:=20 Friday, 21 May 1999 9:58 AM
Subject: another=20 virus

** HIGH PRIORITY = **=20
 Please forward to all friends on this message.
New Virus = Warning=20

 Someone is sending out a very desirable screen-saver, a Bug's = Life=20
 "BUGGLST.ZIP". If you  download it, you will = lose=20 everything!!! Your hard
 drive will crash and someone from the = Internet=20 will get your screen name
 and password!
 DO NOT = DOWNLOAD THIS=20 UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES !!!=20

 IT JUST WENT INTO circulation yesterday, as far as we know. = Please=20
 distribute this message. This is a new, very malicious virus = and not=20 many
 people know about it.This information was announced = yesterday=20 morning
from Microsoft. Please share it with everyone that might = access the=20 Internet.
Also do not open or even look at any mail that says = "RETURNED=20 OR UNABLE TO
DELIVER". This virus will attach itself to your = computer=20 components  and render them useless.
Immediately delete mail = items=20 that  say this. AOL has said that this is a very dangerous virus = and=20
that there is NO remedy  for it  at this time.=20

Mike Cummings
IBM Global Services
Site Manager - Texaco = Denver Region=20
303/793-4008, Texnet 621-4008
FAX: 303/793-4557 =

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEA372.76F94740-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 20 19:22:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA17320 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 19:22:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA26115; Thu, 20 May 1999 19:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25767 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 19:03:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (whan-028.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.128]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04080 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 10:30:46 +1200 Message-ID: <001d01bea30e$9a2d9220$80f631ca@oemcomputer> From: "g&y bodle" To: Subject: Re: BD & organics in NZ Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:17:49 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 960 Dear Glen, So much for the effort some of us put into trying to to develop a more cohesive and integrated organic/BD infrastructure in NZ. Absolutely unbelievable blunder to clash dates like that, especially given the projected content (as I understand it) of the BD AGM/Conference Gareth -----Original Message----- From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, 21 May 1999 7:19 AM Subject: BD & organics in NZ >What does it tell you about the state of Biodynamics and organics in New >Zealand - a small country of 3 million people - when the BDA and BioGro >( the organic registration mark) have their AGMs on exactly the same day >some three hundred miles apart. Interestingly the BDA has a >representative on the BioGro board, I would have thought to liasion on >such matters, so this sort of thing did not happen. > >It would not be such an issue if Demeter had a substantial presence in >NZ. Many BD producers have no choice about using BioGro as it is often >the only NZ mark recognised by exporting companies and their markets. > >In dumbstruck wonder > >Glen A. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 20 22:25:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19979 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 22:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12291; Thu, 20 May 1999 22:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA11908 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 22:06:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.172.173.3] (207-172-173-3.s3.as1.kgp.pa.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.173.3]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00562 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 22:12:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: patters@pop.erols.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 22:12:36 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Ted Patterson Subject: FWD from Ferdinand: Power Lines and greetings to list Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 961 Ferdinand's greetings and activities are below at the end of this message. ============ Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:39:25 -0700 From: Ferdinand Vondruska To: Patterson Ted Subject: Power Lines Dear Ted, Many thanks for your kind email re power lines. It has been found that it is 'not so much' the EMF effect (electro-magnetic-field effect) that may damage the crop or beings underneath a power line (and we are working within feet and several hundred hards of a 250kV line) but rather what the EMFo (eletro magnetic forces) do attract. The EMFi (electro magnetic field) is like a vacuum cleaner and does attract a lot of residues that have to do with the subatomic forces (Uranium, Plutonium etc. etc.). Whenever there is an accident (such as Chernobyl) powerlines seem to collect a lot more fall out than other areas. Scuh fall-out can easily be a thousand times higher (by Gyger count) underneath a power line than in a green forest adjacent to such a power line. This is why in a lab (nicely protected from undue fall-out) plants may do rather well. Whereas outside, deformations due to radiation etc. do occur. Now, Bio-Dynamic Preparations have a truly beneficial effect. We regularly spray with 500, 501, Barrel Compost and the Pfeiffer Field Spray. Not only do we get good crops but the VERY best. Our cows that are grazing and breeding underneath these lines for years and years have produced the most amazing calves. I am sure that this is due to BD treatment of plants, animals and soil. Dr. Steiner was aware of the aging process of the earth. Not only Chernobyl accident(s) will cause an (artificial) aging of our planet but the earth, herself, is getting on, too. We, in BD, cannot prevent the ageing process, but we can help our Mother earth in the process of transformation (spiritualization - becoming invisible(invisible with our eyes) or, becoming a new entity. The subatomic forces are trying to prevent this process in a most bizarre way (deformations, hardening, etc. etc.) Please do not abandon land under power lines. It belongs to mother earth. Use BD sprays (perhaps a bit more intensively) AND study the EMFs. While doing this you will help us all to learn more about electricity AND to transform this power (into a higher entity), too. You are free to submit this post to the list, if you so desire. With my very best regards (and a hello to the list) Yours, Ferdinand Vondruska PS See attachment. Dear friends, I will be in Europe between May 27th - June 27th, 1999. Now, whenever I leave my valley and farm for a longer period of time (Paradise Valley, Upper Cheakamus in British Columbia) I come home to a lot of work. However, not only the farm and garden work is of concern to me but also the millions of messages that do await me upon my return. Some of my friends have the feeling that I have forsaken them if they do not hear from me within days. I am an avid writer and generally answer email messages (and pony mail) quickly. So, please do not think that perhaps, something undue has happened to me or our friendship..... I am going to England (Forest Row, - Emerson College) in order to see some Bio-Dynamic friends of mine. Thereafter, I am scheduled to participate in the Annual General Meeting of HERA (Reforestation Research Centre) in Germany.Foresters and earth healers from Egypt, the former Yugoslavia, India, Canada, the US and South America are scheduled to exchange their ideas and how to help this ailing planet. We are to develop our etheric seeing so that we can quickly distinguish problem areas and how to help the plant world. After this, I'll be in Switzerland for a week or so where I shall meet with our donors and supporters. These are people who have given most generously so that we can continue with our C-Dar World Forest Foundation work. Family 'business' will occupy me, too. On the way 'home' to England, where Anna is finishing her Counseling Studies (getting her Diploma after four years of studies) I will pick up our daughter Sandra at Heathrow Airport - and (now) my holidays shall start (perhaps.......). She wishes to see London. However, I want her to experience Glastonbury, Stonehenge, Avebury and other sacred sites, too. (Assuming that she thinks London to be a sacred site - which, in very Olden Times it truly was!) I shall see whether I can pursue my teenager to stay away from rock concerts, youth bars, shopping (like mad), screaming colors and..... and.... and. I am an old man with feeble nerves and sensitive hearing. So, when I am back in Canada again (after Jun 27th) a lot of work is awaiting me. We are preparing our Michaelmas Festival (scheduled around September 29th, 1999) with speakers from Hawaii, Germany and the US. Whereas Anna wishes to introduce the secrets behind the 'Seven I ams' (spoken and taught by Christ), I am to introduce the planets and their relationship to the (seven) Bio-Dynamic Preparations. Father Philip Harmon has agreed to come to us (Byzantine priest who is thoroughly familiar with Dr. Rudolf Steiner's work) and he will bless our preparations, the house and farm. A lot of tree seeding shall take place, too. This is the cosmic year in which trees will produce exceptional growth (if and when seeded at certain times in the fall). Our nursery is to make a gigantic step forward. So, bear with me, dear friends. I am most thankful for your mail and calls. Do contact me if you have any needs. Do never forget that it is YOU who are providing me with the spiritual foundation and enthusiasm on which I wish to continue building this centre (C-Dar World Forest Foundation) for the rejuvenation of our forests. It is a long haul. With appreciation and thanks; Ferdinand Vondruska -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation; a fully registered Canadian charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 21 04:25:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA23798 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 04:25:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA06116; Fri, 21 May 1999 04:09:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand.global.net.uk (sand.global.net.uk [194.126.82.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA06023 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 04:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p81s03a01.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.131.130] helo=raithby.globalnet.co.uk) by sand.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 10kkQL-0008Nw-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:12:57 +0100 Message-ID: <3744708C.1435B142@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:29:00 +0100 From: ALISON EADES X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: GM crops References: <009f01bea2fb$fa77d180$15c888cf@bdl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 962 The GMO effect on butterflies is alarming here too and the story was in the British papers today, and on national radio. But on the radio they were saying that there were flaws in the science and the two varieties of maize in the trials were different so there could be some other reason for the final effects. I _think_ they said it was published as a contribution (not peer-reviewed) to Nature magazine, which is probably on the Net. There was a piece in The Guardian (www.guardian.co.uk) about genes already crossing over into wild plants and a renewed call from FOE or Greenpeace (can't remember which one) to ban the release of GM plants which have relatives in the wild. I find Tony Blair amazing. Such strong public debate and call for more research yet he is _still_ pushing forward. Think I'll send him a hearing aid. Alison B. David Lively wrote: > Martha, > > Where can I get a copy of that article? > > TIA > > Dave > > B. David Lively > 3H Farm > Bennington, Vermont > > bdl@sover.net > Visit **Dairy Action** at http://www.digital.net/milk > Join the Dairy Action Discussion List: > http://www.digital.net/milk/joindadl.htm > Nancy H. Lively "May you live all the days of your life" > > -----Original Message----- > From: Martha Wells > To: 'Biodynamic Now' > Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 3:53 PM > Subject: precursor of things to come? > > >Our local newspaper is usually very pro-technical anything. (Texas A&M > >lives here, after all.) But, an article came out today about an alarming > >side of GE seed, already surfacing. > >"Pollen from a widely planted, laboratory-designed strain of corn can kill > >monarch butterflies. Monarch caterpillars eating milkweed dusted with > >pollen from the altered corn ate less, grew more slowly, and died more > >quickly. After 4 days, 44 % of them had died vs none of those who had not > >fed on the pollen." Goes on to state that Monarchs are not an endangered > >species, but "environmentalists fear that the genetically engineered corn > >may also be doing other unseen damage to the food chain." 5/20/99, > >Bryan-College Station Eagle, "Nation Briefs" > >martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 21 04:53:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA23987 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 04:53:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA07563; Fri, 21 May 1999 04:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand4.global.net.uk (sand4.global.net.uk [194.126.80.248]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA07435 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 04:36:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p6es10a01.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.138.111] helo=raithby.globalnet.co.uk) by sand4.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10kkrp-00006I-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:41:21 +0100 Message-ID: <37451B1B.9EB1ACEF@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:36:43 +0100 From: ALISON EADES X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Himalayas References: <37446E7D.C2B11D76@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> <00ec01bea300$9277ba00$9c4b2e9c@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 963 Hi Julie I don't have the calendar but I believe they use two as well as some 'scriptutres' (for want of a better word) and their own gifts. Bhutan is Buddhist so walking clockwise around all temples, chortens or even what look to me like piles of stones is important. I find it interesting about your cows and your observations. Steiner always talks about observing and what we can learn for ourselves, I suppose a lot of it is to trust what we see? What else did you See? What philosophy did you reach it by? Also the texts and calendars are in Tibetan and Dzongka so unless you read Dzongkha script there's not much point in getting hold of them. Having said that, I think they are regarded as sacred documents so I doubt I could get any anyway. The full article that I quoted from was also printed in a Bhutanese magazine so if you want to see more I could ask their permission to put it out on the web? (In English). Unfortunately there is no work going on at the moment to capture all this knowledge though the Minister of Agriculture and the Head of the Centre for Bhutan Studies are keen for more research. One more interesting thing - the author knew about biodynamics (you could've knocked me down with a feather!). When I attempted to explain permaculture and organic farming, all he kept saying was "yes, we do that; yes, we do that." It is changing especially with new varieties and some sprays (though they are aware of the toxicity of pesticides and keep them to a minimum). I'll sign off with another quote: "The use of astrology and its philosophy in Bhutan is still a way of life: we can therefore consider ouselves fortunate in many ways. Our elders say that the fact that we have been free of natural calamities like drought, famine and widespread disease, and the very essence of the peace and prosperity we enjoy can be attributed to our belief in maintaining the practices of redressing our fate and destiny with the help of astrology." Alison Julie wrote: > Alison > > This is so cool, I can hardly stand it... > > Were you lucky enough to get a copy of the calendar? Are the symbols quite > different? Do you think you could persuade Allan to post a copy at the > website, so we could see what it looks like? > > I just KNEW direction was so important...but that comes from a different > philosophy. Now another cultural confirmation. And the > clockwise/counterclockwise movement...how interesting. As an aside...I was > always told to increase my garden growth always water in clockwise circular > fashion...unless you wanted less growth (as in a lawn that needs mowing...go > counterclockwise) And I've watched the cows head out into the > pastures...they always head out in the morning to the North, swing through > the woods near noon (for shade no doubt) and then east, then south...always > clockwise...hmmm) It wasn't until I consciously made an effort to stop > walking the pastures, counterclockwise, that I saw all sorts of NEW things > out there (what I actually saw gets a bit "out-there", so I'll stop there)!! > > Anyway, thank you SO much for sharing this with everyone...its outstanding. > > Love Julie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ALISON EADES > To: BDNow > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 1999 3:20 PM > Subject: Himalayas > > > Dear BDers > > > > I had the fortune to visit Bhutan recently to do some work with the > > Ministry of Agriculture. I discovered that astrology plays a very active > > role in farming throughout the country. Nearly all 'villages' (so spread > > apart its difficult to see them as villages) have an astrologer, a sort > > of lay monk. He can be approached for many reasons, including health, > > charts on the birth of a child, and farming. In some places one family > > may be told the auspicious days for planting, transplanting, and weeding > > of rice, for example, and the others follow their example. When starting > > planting they must also face a particular direction. And, of course, > > there are celebrations and offerings to the deities of the valleys, > > hills, etc. > > > > This is not some small group of farmers - this is nearly the whole of > > Bhutan since 98% of the population are involved in agriculture. The > > astrologer uses several tools by which to make his decisions and > > determines the day, time of day and sometimes the direction to face. In > > very remote places (several days walk from the nearest road) I was told > > farmers still follow nature and tend to their cultivations according to > > the blossoming of a certain flower, or arrival of a certain bird for > > example. > > > > I would like to quote an unedited article produced by a Bhutanese > > colleague of mine just to give a flavour of what is going on: > > > > "One requisite etiquette that farmers adhere to either for the sake of > > custom or with robust conviction, is to refer to the astrologer to fix > > the date, day, time and direction to begin sowing or transplanting their > > crops. Religious beliefs show a need to refer to astrology at the > > beginning of sowing any seed to ensure that the crops are free of pests, > > that there is timely rainfall, that farmers are saved unnecessary > > trouble in maintaining their crop, and that they will be blessed with a > > good harvest. > > > > Good harvests have been interpreted as due reward for the appropriate > > worship of deities and in having followed the correct astrological > > indications. In the same way, calamities have been viewed as the result > > of failing to please deities and following the wrong timings. Farmers > > say that deities are in full control of agriculture and we will > > experience national prosperity and success if we worship them well. > > Astrology assists us in the spiritual communication of man and our > > deities. > > > > The Bhutanese term for referring to astrology is Zaka Tani which is > > literally translated as 'day star observation'. All predictions by the > > astrologers are therefore based on a combination of the star, day and > > time. > > > > For rice cultivation, reference to astrology is done according to the > > various stages of crop growth. For instance, crop husbandry follows the > > following stages: nursery, transplantation, and crop-cutting. Activities > > for these stages start only after the announcement of timings fixed by > > the astrologers. The timings include: date, day, hour, and direction. > > Sowing seed and the rice nursery: raising rice in the nursery is always > > done on the first month of the Bhutanese calendar. Sowing seed begins > > according to timings fixed by the astrologer. When its time to start the > > nursery, farmers go to the village astrologer individually to find out > > the timings. The date, day, time and direction are all used to > > calculate the timings. ... > > > > Farmers in Paro also believe that reference to astrology is only > > required for local rice varieties; whereas in Punakha, reference is > > required for all varieties. According to the predictions, individual > > household go to the fields and start to sow precisely at the time fixed > > by the astrologer. The most vital factor, before a farmer can spray the > > first handful of seed on the ground, is that he faces the predicted > > direction. Facing the right or wrong direction is believed to > > determine all ensuing patterns of crop growth. > > > > According to one astrologer, the direction is determined by water jugs. > > There are two water jugs, one full to the brim with holy water and known > > as Buum Teir and the other empty and known as Bum Toum. They face each > > other in the four directions of East, North, West and South. The farmer > > has to face the direction of the filled jug when sowing the first seed > > on the ground. Once this formality has been completed, the rest of the > > seed can be sown in any suitable way preferred by the farmer. The > > Astrologer in Serigang said that the location of this filled jug rotates > > clockwise, on a monthly basis, from one direction to the other. However, > > a farmer in Lakhu disputes this and says the filled jug rotates on a > > daily basis through the four directions." > > > > Of course, conventional agricultural research is making headway in > > Bhutan but I feel really hopeful that perhaps one country can strike the > > right balance and take the best of modern technologies and the best of > > traditional activities and beliefs to achieve a trully sustainable way > > of living on the land. One interesting point was the fact that people > > fully recognised the power of astrological information for traditional > > varieties but, for some reason, felt it didn't apply to the new rice > > varieties bred by scientists. No reason was given. > > > > Alison > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 21 08:46:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA26927 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 08:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA20168; Fri, 21 May 1999 08:29:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20048 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 08:26:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.139.143] (max18-15.stc.net [208.210.139.143]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA03468 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 08:31:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5CEB85A7F9C@agecon.uga.edu> References: <37407266.39FC@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:55:38 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF: Waldorf/Steiner education Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 964 >> Reading all the posts about the Waldorf/Steiner education, I feel quite >> envious. I live in a small town in New Zealand and there is only one >> local 'normal' school. No other kind of education for hundreds of >> miles... >> >> Linda > >If you have children (the younger the better) and you are interested >in giving them some of the benefits of what a Waldorf education has >to offer, there's much that you can do at home to foster this, >regardless of what school they go to. Don't underestimate the >effects of homelife!! > >Anita > > >Anita Graf >313-F Conner Hall >Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics >University of Georgia >Athens, GA 30602-7509 >(706) 542-1915 phone >(706) 542-0739 fax >agraf@agecon.uga.edu After reading this, and many other excellent posts regarding Waldorf education, I'm moved to respond. I've hosted a lot of Waldorf third graders here on the farm, and they've had it as a highlight of their third grade experience. I've been majorly impressed with the possibilities of this mode of schooling. Wilhelm Reich, who made a deep impression on me in my development as a psychologist, thought that we make the most impression on our children at the earliest ages, such as the first few hours, weeks and months of life. Thus the home environment is of critical importance, and school only comes after that. School is noticed, but the environment seems ignored. I had the opportunity to tutor a 5-year-old for six months. I went around collecting eggs, counting rabbits, etc. every evening and learning how to count was part of life. Chopping firewood, keeping the stove going, all these things were part of the home environment. He learned a lot that his later excellence in education exemplified, but I don't suppose it could be quantified. Really we need a pre-Waldorf schooling of training mothers to give their babies an environment to learn best in. After having one Waldorf school reject as an apprentice--a nice enough guy but compulsive about altering instruction--I don't think the failures are that bad, even though this guy was a disaster. This person had a compulsion about altering instructions which must have made him unacceptable at some point to his Waldorf class. All the more reason to think we should pay more attention to those first few hours, weeks and months of life. I might say, that this individual is not on my list of lost souls. He is learning everything the hard way. No doubt he will show himself as a very progressed soul at some point. I just couldn't stand his learning curve on my farm. I might hope some of this could be ameloriated at birth or early childhood. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 Questions for Science: THE ATMOSPHERE. Why doesn't the Earth's warm air rise? Why is it so cold at the top of a mountain, i.e. nearer the Sun? Why in our houses is it warmer nearer the ceiling and colder at the floor, when an artificial source of heat is used? Why does marble expand with heat and why doesn't it contract again with cold? --Victor Schauberger From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 21 10:03:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28410 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 10:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27407; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:46:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27349 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:46:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.69] (pm3shep1-163-57.intrepid.net [209.190.163.57]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA07937 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:51:12 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:52:47 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: BD Event in Silver Spring MD, Sat. May 22, 1999 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 965 (This is pretty sketchy info. Call ACORN HILL in Silver Spring, MD to verify. Sorry, I do NOT have their phone number.) Nicanor Perlas, a noted BD grower in the Phillipines, will speak of his work for 2 hrs this Saturday at 3PM at ACORN HILL in Silver Spring, MD. I plan to attend. Anyone interested in sharing a ride between Charles Town, WV and Silver Spring, MD, via Rt 340, I-270, etc, let me know ASAP. Thanks Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA BIODYNAMICS Now! temp mailing address: POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 21 10:09:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28507 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 10:09:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28209; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:52:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28015 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.69] (pm3shep1-163-57.intrepid.net [209.190.163.57]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08920 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:56:28 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:58:11 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Acorn Hill Update Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 966 Thanks to the Ahrimanic folks at MSN: Acorn Hill Children's Center 9504 Brunett Ave, Silver Spring, MD 20901 (301) 565-2282 =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 21 11:14:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29812 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 11:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05763; Fri, 21 May 1999 10:58:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05478 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 10:55:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp0.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.100]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA10940 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:58:00 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00a201bea39a$97cc6b00$644b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: Subject: Internet Transmission of Homeopathic Medicine Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:59:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 967 LOOK HUGH!!! Check this out! I remember many moons ago, such discussion right on this very list!! This comes from Natural Foods Merchandiser....hope you enjoy it... Physicists To Study Internet Transmission of Homeopathic Medicine Why did the Nobel Laureate send an e-mail? To conduct a double-blind study on homeopathic remedies, of course. Brain Josephson, who won a Noble Prize for Physics in 1973, and fellow physicist Robert Park are close to agreeing on protocol for an experiment to determine if homeopathic properties can be transmitted over the Internet. The debate began because Park is among the critics of homeopathy who point out that some remedies are so diluted that no active substance remains. The two scientists are at odds over claims by a French biologist that during the dilution process when homeopathic medicine is made, characteristics of the active substances are transferred to the water molecules used in the process. Given this assertion, homeopathic solutions without a single molecule of biologically active substance could still be effective. The scientific study was conceived because Jacques Benveniste, the French biologist, also claims that the "memory" of the water in the homeopathic solution has an electromagnetic "signature." The study will attempt to capture the signature using copper coil, digitize it, and then transmit it over the Internet. Specifics of the study are still under consideration, but it is likely that Benveniste himself will examine the samples of water. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 21 11:20:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29949 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 11:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06695; Fri, 21 May 1999 11:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06516 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 11:03:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp0.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.100]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA12422 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 10:05:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00a901bea39b$a3770fe0$644b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: "BD NOW LIST" References: <37446E7D.C2B11D76@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> <00ec01bea300$9277ba00$9c4b2e9c@oemcomputer> <37451B1B.9EB1ACEF@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Subject: Re: Himalayas Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:07:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 968 Dear Alison, You wrote: > I find it interesting about your cows and your observations. Steiner always talks about observing and what we can learn for ourselves, I suppose a lot of it is to trust what we see? Yes, I think that is true, trusting in what we see...which I did, but sharing it is quite another matter sometimes, no? But since you ask, I'll try to muster some courage: > What else did you See? What philosophy did you reach it by? First, as I mentioned it was a conscious, deliberate, almost forced departure from my normal trek around the pasture. It felt uncomfortable. Habit is such a strong influence. And just after I got past that part, within moments, I actually saw new "places" (for lack of a better word). I mean really, heading into the woods, places I really actually had never seen before, despite zillions of trips through the woods. Especially seeing what I call "fairy rings", circles of plant growth, with soft grassy centers, usually a brushy circumference, but very clearly defined. When you enter the circle, its magic, you can feel it. And it changes with the direction you face. On one recent visit to such a circle, I faced, I'd say, East SE, and at that moment the most brilliant rays of the western sunset shone through the trees, nearly horizontal, just wild. It filled me up (I must add that perhaps I was feeling especially happy during that visit, so when I was offered that gift from my farm, well, I just felt complete & very blessed, grateful too) What did it teach me? That the earth-being, the mother speaks to us, that if you listen, if you open your eyes (by following natural rhythms, natural laws, such as clockwise movement for increase, counter for decrease, and of course, yes, astrology...) that you become blessed...with awareness, that the senses are heightened, that your soul is opened. (yikes, I'm baring mine, aren't I?) > I'll sign off with another quote: "The use of astrology and its > philosophy in Bhutan is still a way of life: we can therefore consider ouselves > fortunate in many ways. Our elders say that the fact that we have been free of > natural calamities like drought, famine and widespread disease, and the very > essence of the peace and prosperity we enjoy can be attributed to our belief in > maintaining the practices of redressing our fate and destiny with the help of > astrology." What an absolute truth. They just know it is. I read a statement last evening that has been ringing in my head (like a song will do sometimes) "If you remove the impossible, all you have left is the truth, no matter how improbable" The impossible? Well that's just the blinder, the cataract over our eye, the part we won't hear, the wall between our hearts & the earth. Enough...back to reality (or should I say Maya? :-)) Love Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 21 12:21:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02157 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 12:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15107; Fri, 21 May 1999 12:03:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15041 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 12:02:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp0.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.100]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA22960 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 11:05:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00fa01bea3a3$f5ee8980$644b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: Subject: Grafted trees vs. Seedling trees Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 11:07:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 969 I have just been sent a report regarding the metabolic imbalances created in fruit trees when the practice(s) of budding/grafting are employed. After reading this paper, I'm astounded at the obviousness of problems that occur, including the compromise of flavor in the final fruit product, not to mention the entire health of the tree itself. This just smacked of biodynamics so much that I've been thinking long & hard about it. It just makes sense that the rootstock of a particular variety would have different needs, and working from the soil uptaking its particular requirements, but the grafted section, having its special needs, and photosynthesizing for those needs, but not the rootstock's...well, of course, it just makes sense, that each "half" of the tree would be unable to give the other its proper nutrients (& vibrational elements as well?). If the tree cannot "communicate" with itself, how can it possibly communicate with its environment & attract the proper forces for healthy fruit? In Pfeiffer's "The Biodynamic Treatment of Fruit Trees, Berries & Shrubs" all the problems that one might expect are noted, the differences in rootstock & scion make-up causing all sorts of disease, pest & adaptation problems, yet he still endorses a particular "typing" of rootstock/graft developed by the school of horticulture in East Malling, England, suggesting growers seek out the particular Malling type for particular soils/climates. Its as if he almost gets there, but regresses back to modern intervention/science (copyright 1957). Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Has anyone experimented with this? Anyone done a radionic or dowsing review of the grafted tree product vs. seed tree product? Thanks for your insights...Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 21 13:01:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03095 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 13:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21481; Fri, 21 May 1999 12:45:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21135 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 12:44:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 2126 invoked from network); 21 May 1999 16:49:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.34.145) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 21 May 1999 16:49:40 -0000 Message-ID: <03cb01bea3a9$3ca1f4c0$6321d2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: Grafted trees vs. Seedling trees Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:44:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 970 Douglas Hinds over on the SANET list has posted frequently about this---his email address is dmhinds@acnet.net . Frank -----Original Message----- From: Julie To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, May 21, 1999 12:09 PM Subject: Grafted trees vs. Seedling trees >I have just been sent a report regarding the metabolic imbalances created in >fruit trees when the practice(s) of budding/grafting are employed. After >reading this paper, I'm astounded at the obviousness of problems that occur, >including the compromise of flavor in the final fruit product, not to >mention the entire health of the tree itself. This just smacked of >biodynamics so much that I've been thinking long & hard about it. > >It just makes sense that the rootstock of a particular variety would have >different needs, and working from the soil uptaking its particular >requirements, but the grafted section, having its special needs, and >photosynthesizing for those needs, but not the rootstock's...well, of >course, it just makes sense, that each "half" of the tree would be unable to >give the other its proper nutrients (& vibrational elements as well?). If >the tree cannot "communicate" with itself, how can it possibly communicate >with its environment & attract the proper forces for healthy fruit? > >In Pfeiffer's "The Biodynamic Treatment of Fruit Trees, Berries & Shrubs" >all the problems that one might expect are noted, the differences in >rootstock & scion make-up causing all sorts of disease, pest & adaptation >problems, yet he still endorses a particular "typing" of rootstock/graft >developed by the school of horticulture in East Malling, England, suggesting >growers seek out the particular Malling type for particular soils/climates. >Its as if he almost gets there, but regresses back to modern >intervention/science (copyright 1957). > >Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Has anyone experimented with this? >Anyone done a radionic or dowsing review of the grafted tree product vs. >seed tree product? > >Thanks for your insights...Julie > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 21 13:08:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03229 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 13:08:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22178; Fri, 21 May 1999 12:52:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22103 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 12:51:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from barrylia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EA6JRMLX; Fri, 21 May 1999 12:56:09 EDT To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:28:40 -0700 Subject: Re: precursor of things to come? Message-ID: <19990521.095537.-4079741.8.barrylia@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-11,13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27-32,34-61,63-64,66-68,70,72,74-78 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Barry D Lia Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 971 These news reports refer to "scientific correspondence" just published in the May 20th issue of *Nature*. That issue is not in our local libraries yet, so I've not actually seen the article as yet, but here is the first paragraph from the Nature web pages: Nature 399, 214 (1999) © Macmillan Publishers Ltd. Transgenic pollen harms monarch larvae JOHN E. LOSEY, LINDA S. RAYOR & MAUREEN E. CARTER Although plants transformed with genetic material from the bacterium Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) are generally thought to have negligible impact on non-target organisms, Bt corn plants might represent a risk because most hybrids express the Bt toxin in pollen, and corn pollen is dispersed over at least 60 metres by wind. Corn pollen is deposited on other plants near corn fields and can be ingested by the non-target organisms that consume these plants. In a laboratory assay we found that larvae of the monarch butterfly, Danaus plexippus, reared on milkweed leaves dusted with pollen from Bt corn, ate less, grew more slowly and suffered higher mortality than larvae reared on leaves dusted with untransformed corn pollen or on leaves without pollen. _______________________________________________________________________ Barry Lia \ barrylia@juno.com \ Seattle WA On Thu, 20 May 1999 16:04:29 -0400 "B. David Lively" writes: >Martha, > >Where can I get a copy of that article? > >TIA > > >Dave > >B. David Lively >3H Farm >Bennington, Vermont > >bdl@sover.net > Visit **Dairy Action** at http://www.digital.net/milk >Join the Dairy Action Discussion List: >http://www.digital.net/milk/joindadl.htm >Nancy H. Lively "May you live all the days of your life" > >-----Original Message----- >From: Martha Wells >To: 'Biodynamic Now' >Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 3:53 PM >Subject: precursor of things to come? > > >>Our local newspaper is usually very pro-technical anything. (Texas A&M >>lives here, after all.) But, an article came out today about an alarming >>side of GE seed, already surfacing. >>"Pollen from a widely planted, laboratory-designed strain of corn can kill >>monarch butterflies. Monarch caterpillars eating milkweed dusted with >>pollen from the altered corn ate less, grew more slowly, and died more >>quickly. After 4 days, 44 % of them had died vs none of those who had not >>fed on the pollen." Goes on to state that Monarchs are not an endangered >>species, but "environmentalists fear that the genetically engineered corn >>may also be doing other unseen damage to the food chain." 5/20/99, >>Bryan-College Station Eagle, "Nation Briefs" >>martha > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 21 13:31:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA04623 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 13:31:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24696; Fri, 21 May 1999 13:15:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.phoenix.speedchoice.com (mail.phoenix.speedchoice.com [24.221.30.31]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24530 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 13:13:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uswest.net (hybrid-224-227.phoenix.speedchoice.com [207.240.224.227]) by mail.phoenix.speedchoice.com (8.8.8/) with ESMTP id KAA11943 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 10:20:29 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3745954C.422ED976@uswest.net> Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:18:04 -0700 From: J & M-D Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: precursor of things to come? References: <19990521.095537.-4079741.8.barrylia@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 972 Hello to all, I recently joined the list and find the postings very informative. Here is a brief description of the study from Cornell. http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/May99/Butterflies.bpf.html CNN is also giving it ample coverage at: http://cnn.com/NATURE/9905/20/butterfly.killers/ Cheers, Jerry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 21 13:43:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA04863 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 13:43:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26380; Fri, 21 May 1999 13:28:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25938 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 13:24:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp14.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.114]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA08442 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 12:26:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <006001bea3af$642b0da0$724b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: "BD NOW LIST" Subject: Susan Weed in WI Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:28:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 973 Friends, Tomorrow (sorry for such late notice, but just rec'd myself) renowned herbalist Susan Weed will be speaking in Viroqua, WI at the Landmark Center from 10a.m. - 5 p.m. Cost is $50...still seats available (unreal!) and benefits the Waldorf-inspired Youth Initiative High School in Viroqua... Just in case any of you are near enough to attend... Love Julie PS...bring a dish for potluck at 12:30:-) (use herbs!) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 21 14:34:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA05869 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:34:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02777; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:17:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02625 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.117]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990521182259.NPTZ7623210.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 06:22:59 +1200 Message-ID: <3745A48C.2BEC@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 06:23:08 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: BD & organics in NZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 974 Absolutely unbelievable blunder to clash dates like that, especially given > the projected content (as I understand it) of the BD AGM/Conference Gareth What is the projected content of the BD AGM? Are there forces at work with in the BDANZ which do not want this cohesion? If so, Who, and why, do you think? I would have thought David Wrights (BD secretary) presence on the Bio Gro board would have avoided such an error. He is usually so officious and meticulous with minute detail. How did he manage to miss this one? Strange really! Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 21 21:04:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17505 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 21:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03370; Fri, 21 May 1999 20:47:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03174 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 20:44:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp277.cy-net.net [208.21.195.86]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09046 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 19:49:31 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEA3C0.B1D00180@FLYLO>; Fri, 21 May 1999 19:32:42 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEA3C0.B1D00180@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Grafted trees vs. Seedling trees Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:31:58 -0500 Encoding: 23 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 975 I haven't done much work with grafting vs seedling, but I have been thinking along the same lines. We have a wild native plum tree here, self-dwarfing, small tart fruit, blooms late enough that a late frost won't kill the buds. I've been thinking I'd like to take a strip of my peach tree and graft it onto one of the native plums. I know that the rootstock is the determining factor in whether the tree grows tall or short, and it's acclimation to a particular climate depends on the signals the rootstock sends to the trunk lines. I've been told by 'pros' that my wild plums would be good for almost any kind of fruit BUT plums. I asked why and they didn't know, but the tree may have some resistance to 'it's own kind', and not take the graft. Rootstock almost always regrows another wild plum when domestic plums are used as top growth. Interesting, yes? Since most of the root stock available to growers is the Malling (numbering system), I'd think they'd be worried about not enough diversification. Pecans: We have hundreds of 'pig nut pecan' trees. Lovely big shade trees, small, hard thick-shelled sweet pecans. Again, the pros say they're only good as rootstock, and they need to be 5+ years before they can be spliced. But, a pecan pie aficionado can almost always tell the ones made with (sweeter) native pecans vs those made with (easier) papershell pecans. (to a hog, they're all pig nuts!)Guess I'll keep my natives awhile longer! martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 22 01:53:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA21545 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 01:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA16896; Sat, 22 May 1999 01:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand5.global.net.uk (exim@sand5.global.net.uk [194.126.80.249]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA16794 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 01:33:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p32s09a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.217.51] helo=compaq) by sand5.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 10l4V0-0004xZ-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 22 May 1999 06:39:07 +0100 Message-ID: <37464214.3486@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 06:35:16 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: [Fwd: To Allison and others] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4329FF523E7" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 976 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4329FF523E7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A poem sent to the Ministry here in England Regards Rex Tyler --------------4329FF523E7 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <37463DE0.3252@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 06:17:20 +0100 From: Cook's Delight Reply-To: cooksd@globalnet.co.uk Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bdnow@enviroling.org Subject: To Allison and others Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------485236417A56" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------485236417A56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A poem a day is sent on its way To the Ministry here and to Blair Its all I can do And it might just get through Since its relevant Therefore I share. Rex Tyler --------------485236417A56 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <3744EE25.7BE1@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 06:24:53 +0100 From: Cook's Delight Reply-To: cooksd@globalnet.co.uk Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: K.Slade@FSSG.maff.gov.uk, soilassoc@gn.apc.org, healthfdmg@aol.com, flylo@txcyber.com Subject: A precursor of things to come References: <37182559.3199@globalnet.co.uk> <371A2752.3477@globalnet.co.uk> <371A2AAA.1906@globalnet.co.uk> <371A2E71.1724@globalnet.co.uk> <371C18D9.110E@globalnet.co.uk> <371D05FE.1635@globalnet.co.uk> <371D6320.3890@globalnet.co.uk> <371D6631.1A82@globalnet.co.uk> <371D69A1.3079@globalnet.co.uk> <371FB308.4C58@globalnet.co.uk> <371FB4F1.17E0@globalnet.co.uk> <3722FA57.4DD@globalnet.co.uk> <372363EC.145C@globalnet.co.uk> <372366CE.62E6@globalnet.co.uk> <37236AEC.B0A@globalnet.co.uk> <37294C20.1E25@globalnet.co.uk> <372A483F.425B@globalnet.co.uk> <372D66E7.408A@globalnet.co.uk> <3732804F.16AC@globalnet.co.uk> <3733CAB3.4B94@globalnet.co.uk> <37352B80.6BF9@globalnet.co.uk> <37391685.A3D@globalnet.co.uk> <373919C5.365C@globalnet.co.uk> <373A2069.1E95@globalnet.co.uk> <373A26A2.4F16@globalnet.co.uk> <373E24B3.36AC@globalnet.co.uk> <373FAA56.1BA3@globalnet.co.uk> <374104B0.C6D@globalnet.co.uk> <374104E3.1798@globalnet.co.uk> <37425588.42D9@globalnet.co.uk> <3743A8E6.36E4@globalne! t.co.uk> <3744E86A.568A@globalnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The latest on the Watch Out here comes Pollen Up the poor old noses Watch it fly Sniffles, headaches,sickness Anti-Histamine Little pimples growing in the eye! Days off work,can't drive And now worse problems As on the milkweed Caterpillas sigh Pollen dust from strains Of corn had blown there On eating it a lot Of them will die. 44% of them in 4 days The Monarch's will not reign At least round here When genetic splicing takes out little'uns It doesn't auger well With that much cheer Al'right you human beings Might say who cares About some obscure Butterfly, we'll see God put us here, to Share this troubled planet Not to become extinct Because of thee We flutter by And sail into oblivion Our gorgeous silky wings Are on parade I hope to god you realise your error,add a T It's terror that you've laid Firmly on the shoulders Of the Scientists The Politicians now Who strut their stuff All of us out there The faceless masses Can tell you that We've really had enough! Rex Tyler --------------485236417A56-- --------------4329FF523E7-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 22 01:59:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA21593 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 01:59:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA17317; Sat, 22 May 1999 01:42:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand5.global.net.uk (exim@sand5.global.net.uk [194.126.80.249]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA17088 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 01:39:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p32s09a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.217.51] helo=compaq) by sand5.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 10l4aT-0004y2-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 22 May 1999 06:44:46 +0100 Message-ID: <37464366.11A3@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 06:40:54 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: [Fwd: Monkey Buisiness] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------65FE164D4363" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 977 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------65FE164D4363 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is the ode from the day before also relevant to the cause Rex --------------65FE164D4363 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <3743A8E6.36E4@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:17:10 +0100 From: Cook's Delight Reply-To: cooksd@globalnet.co.uk Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: K.Slade@FSSG.maff.gov.uk, soilassoc@gn.apc.org, healthfdmg@aol.com Subject: Monkey Buisiness References: <37182559.3199@globalnet.co.uk> <371A2752.3477@globalnet.co.uk> <371A2AAA.1906@globalnet.co.uk> <371A2E71.1724@globalnet.co.uk> <371C18D9.110E@globalnet.co.uk> <371D05FE.1635@globalnet.co.uk> <371D6320.3890@globalnet.co.uk> <371D6631.1A82@globalnet.co.uk> <371D69A1.3079@globalnet.co.uk> <371FB308.4C58@globalnet.co.uk> <371FB4F1.17E0@globalnet.co.uk> <3722FA57.4DD@globalnet.co.uk> <372363EC.145C@globalnet.co.uk> <372366CE.62E6@globalnet.co.uk> <37236AEC.B0A@globalnet.co.uk> <37294C20.1E25@globalnet.co.uk> <372A483F.425B@globalnet.co.uk> <372D66E7.408A@globalnet.co.uk> <3732804F.16AC@globalnet.co.uk> <3733CAB3.4B94@globalnet.co.uk> <37352B80.6BF9@globalnet.co.uk> <37391685.A3D@globalnet.co.uk> <373919C5.365C@globalnet.co.uk> <373A2069.1E95@globalnet.co.uk> <373A26A2.4F16@globalnet.co.uk> <373E24B3.36AC@globalnet.co.uk> <373FAA56.1BA3@globalnet.co.uk> <374104B0.C6D@globalnet.co.uk> <374104E3.1798@globalnet.co.uk> <37425588.42D9@globalnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You'll have to tell our Tony Just what's happening, In Saskatoon where wind Blown pollen flew Over roof tops, through a playground and down Lovers Lane and Beyond it where organic Rape Seed grew. It seems now it just can't Be truly certified Not any more, so there you are, we see Nobody prepared to give Assurance, that Organic Rape Is in fact GM Free. Organically produced Canola Maybe, a thing now of the past Just like They'd hoped The GM Boys now raise their glass Accordingly That mankind clearly really hasn't coped. With all this gene technology, it's crazy A world of warp and sickness rolled in one Biodiversity and Permaculture be Not the kind of thing we should have done! Planet Earth is reeling from this business They've by-passed Natural Order for their treat All they're ever interested in, is money And they couldn't care a monkey's what we eat! And talking of the monkeys,the poor Rhesus An ancestor of humans so they say Genetic Science storms it's boundaries tragically And sod's about with all its DNA Poor Dolly and Poor Tracy, now it's Monkeys! Who will be the first to clone one, who? Everyone is at it, ego's flashing For thats the thing they now all want to do. Well if they will not mind, I think to dabble In what they know so little now about Playing God their students of such arrogance Who use their microscope and truly flout The Laws that brought them from the womb of Nature To play as children and to really be God like in their wish to DNA and ise Every living soul eventually! That seems most apparent We could do it, to Politicians Further down the track Not just infants but the Ruling Government Quick mate on the table Here's a pack Put some Rhesus monkey genes Inside them And see them climbing Curtains at a glance Pounding on the table At some conference And unzipping bananas As they dance That would put the cat Amongst the pigeons, That would get the media on heat In Oregon they say They're growing monkeys Just recall now what They've done to things we eat! Rex Tyler --------------65FE164D4363-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 22 08:47:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA23999 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 08:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA27344; Sat, 22 May 1999 08:30:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA27230 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 08:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp35.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.135]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id HAA06281 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 07:30:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00fc01bea44f$2c59b200$874b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: Subject: Off: Chevron funds Sierra Club Director Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 07:32:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 978 I've heard of clouds hanging over the Sierra Club before, but cannot remember the specifics...this just darkens it further....forwarded from an environmental list: Chevron and other Polluter Interests Fund Sierra Club Director Anne Ehrlich Membership of Club Re-Elected Her To Board Without Knowledge of Dirty Funding The Sierra Club has been a leading critic of corporate polluter funding of politicians and of corporations trying to greenwash their record. So it is with great surprise to find that Sierra Club Director Anne Ehrlich benefits from donations from Chevron and other interests linked to polluting corporations. The membership of the Sierra Club recently re-elected Mrs. Ehrlich to the board, but without knowledge of these environmentally tainted funding sources. Mrs. Ehrlich is the associate director of Stanford University's Center for Conservation Biology (CCB). The Center was founded by Mrs. Ehrlich's husband, Paul, who is current president of CCB. Since at least 1995, the oil giant Chevron has funded CCB. This is problematic to say the least. Chevron operates polluting refineries in Richmond and Los Angeles, California. Its basic product oil is a major contributor to air and water pollution in California and elsewhere. Its product also contributes to global warming; and Chevron has been a supporter of the Global Climate Coalition, a leading global warming naysayer. Abroad, environmentalists have challenged Chevron drilling operations for despoiling the environment. A recent Human Rights Watch Report charged Chevron with involvement in severe human rights violations in Nigeria, including ties to "Kill-And-Go" death squads. In an interview, Mrs. Ehrlich brushed off concern about the Chevron support, explaining that it merely funded a few graduate students and that the donation was given with no strings attached. Well it just so happens that Mrs. Ehrlich supports continued oil drilling to meet future global demand, a position that she failed to disclose in her Sierra Club ballot statement. One is reminded of the rationalizations by politicians receiving oil funding. If Chevron is quite happy to support the Ehrlichs, it raises questions as to why their environmentalism is acceptable to this environmentally noxious company. The funding by Chevron is not the only questionable funder of the Ehrlichs' conservation work. Others include: -- Ward Woods, a director of Boise Cascade, Freeport McMoRan(since 70's until 1997), and Kelley Oil - Boise and Freeport are environmentally rapacious companies; for example, Freeport, the New Orleans based mining giant which invited Henry Kissinger on its board, has been charged with cultural genocide and eco-cide for its operations in Indonesia. -- Global coal and natural gas power plant billionaire Roger Sant of AES -- The Ehrlichs' leading benefactor NYC apartment property heir Peter Bing sits on the board of the conservative Hoover Institute along with the likes of Richard Mellon Scaife and Dwayne O. Andreas(Archer Daniels Midland CEO). The Hoover Institute has long been a fountain of anti-environmentalism, recently publishing a book touting the benefits of global warming. -- Support from the Munger foundation, which receives its wealth from the founder of and partner in law firm that represents Unocal and Southern California Edison. Stanford's board of trustees has close ties to Edison, including the presence of Edison CEO John Bryson. Perhaps not surprisingly, Mrs. Ehrlich views Edison as one of the most forward looking corporations. Edison's efforts to run the Carbon II power plant without scrubbers seems not to be a concern to Ehrlich. The California chapter of Sierra Club in 1998 supported a repeal of billion dollar bailout of Edison's nuclear stranded costs, but with no help from Sierra Club leadership - no wonder with board members like Anne for whom it would be awkward. -- Donations from the Pew Charitable Trusts, the foundation of the scions of Sun Oil, which has been criticized by many grassroots environmentalists for its domineering funding strategy. In the 80's Pew was viewed as part of the right wing funding community. In this decade the foundation has tried to remake itself as a centrist do-gooder agent, yet Pew supported pro-NAFTA advocacy of the Heritage Foundation while simultaneously generously funding many of the environmental groups that supported NAFTA. Sierra Club courageously opposed NAFTA. -- Funding from Environmental Defense Fund (EDF) trustees Teresa Heinz and Wren Wirth through the Winslow Foundation. On a variety of policy matters, i.e. NAFTA, global warming, and air pollution strategies, EDF has been at odds with Sierra Club. The Ehrlichs' recent book acknowledged input from EDF staffers and extolled market based environmentalism, yet seemed to have no link to or mention of the Sierra Club. Perhaps Mrs. Ehrlich would be more comfortable at EDF. -- The U.S. Forest Service, U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, and California Department of Fish and Game and other government agencies also support CCB. Considering how activists are often battling the actions of these agencies, this raises another question regarding Mrs. Ehrlich's capacity as an independent voice for grassroots environmental concerns in her role as Sierra Club director In light of Mrs. Ehrlichs outspoken stances on population control and immigration restrictions, the fact that she is comfortable accepting funding from a company whose profits have been described as "blood money" is exceedingly loathsome. As an advisor to the Federation for American Immigration Reform, she supports tight controls on immigration into the United States, but is apparently comfortable taking funding from a company bringing in oil from abroad where it has despoiled the environment and violently repressed opposition to its operations, as in Nigeria. The Sierra Club has been at the forefront of criticizing Shell Oil's operations in that county, yet has been seemingly silent on Chevron, the actions of which have been viewed as comparable to that of Shell. It so happens that Chevron is headquartered San Francisco, California - the site of the Club's own headquarters and the Club's home state. It would seem that a Sierra Club campaign exposing Chevron's odious environmental and human rights abuses could bear fruitful results. Yet with Ehrlichs' funding from Chevron, one should not expect her to be supportive of such an effort. This briefing at the very least raises several disturbing questions that Sierra Club members have not been informed of about the resume, financial backers and environmental philosophy of Anne Ehrlich, when they elected Ehrlich to the board of directors of the Club. While Mrs. Ehrlich separates the funders of CCB and her role as a Sierra Club director, it is not clear that Sierra's membership would agree with this compartmentalization. At the least, there is concern that Ehrlich's corporate ties create a conflict of interest with her role as a director of the Sierra Club. A Sierra Club volunteer Karen Jones served on a Sierra Club consumption task force with Mrs. Ehrlich while Ehrlich was a Club director. Jones found a disinclination by Ehrlich to take into account the role of corporations in driving consumption and resource extraction. Ultimately out of dissatisfaction with what she perceived a biased agenda, Jones had her name removed from a consumption report prepared by the committee. In a letter of dissent, Jones cited the case of populations in foreign countries unable to control the operations of oil companies taking advantage of repressive political regimes -- ironic in light of how this reflects Chevron's operations in Nigeria. The full report is available at the below website. The NonProfit Accountability Project is an effort to investigate and raise issues of accountability and integrity in the nonprofit sector. ====================================== Bernardo Issel NonProfit Accountability Project PO Box 53238, Washington D.C. 20009 www.erols.com/npap npap@erols.com 202 333 1855 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 23 09:35:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09980 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 09:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22606; Sun, 23 May 1999 09:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22525 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 09:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (r-231.208.alltel.net [166.102.231.208]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with SMTP id IAA09946 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 08:20:49 -0500 (CDT) From: "Pat Brown" To: Subject: RE: another virus Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 09:25:39 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bea51f$c094d0a0$d0e766a6@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01BEA4FE.398C5860" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001201bea30d$e5ca5f20$80f631ca@oemcomputer> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 979 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BEA4FE.398C5860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.kumite.com/myths/ Got questions on viruses??? Go to this site and check out what is real and what ain't before you send out messages like this. It really put your mind at ease! ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BEA4FE.398C5860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BEA4FE.398C5860-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 23 22:59:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19637 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 22:59:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA08248; Sun, 23 May 1999 22:42:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ctc.swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08052 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 22:39:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (ctca150.vthokies.net [206.153.172.150] (may be forged)) by ctc.swva.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id WAA23410 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 22:45:11 -0400 Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 22:45:11 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990523224858.522f39b4@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: Study:L3 Astrality. Plants and Biodynamics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 980 At 01:24 AM 5/16/99 +1200, Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: >In acknowledgement of the Perigee and New Moon > >A question that has mulled around in my thoughts and images for some >time is: What is the nature and quality, or function of the Astrality in >the Biodyanmic understanding of plant growth? > >In lecture 3 we are presented with an image of the Astrality and its >relationship to Nitrogen as being a central element, which actually >drags the oxygen and etheric body into contact with the physical body. >Yet in lecture seven and elsewhere we are presented with a picture of >the Astrality not actually entering the plant, other than in poisionous >plant and legumes. This leaves us with the image of the plant just >touching the Astrality at flowering. Dear Glen, This is a good question--and you are well on your way to answering it!--but I'll add a few comments that you may find useful. When we fall asleep we lose consciousness and our body becomes relatively still. We become to a certain extent like a plant rather than an ensouled being. A plant, on the other hand, is always asleep, but sometimes sleeps more deeply and at other times it almost wakes up. A plant sleeps most deeply in its vegetative phase of growth and begins to awaken, or at least to dream, during its reproductive or flowering phase. During the reproductive phase it is also most mobile (think of pollen and seed dispersal). These differences in consciousness and/or mobility express different relationships between the soul and the body. During sleep--in the vegetative phase--the soul works on the body from outside; waking up means the soul is beginning to enter the body and work on it from within, which happen in the flower or fruit. So it is not surprising that Steiner describes more than one relationship between the plant and its soul (astrality is a technical term for soul substance in general). Our relationship to our soul is variable not only over time (as discussed), but also over space. When we are awake we are most awake in the quiescent region of our head and least aware--thankfully--of all the vital activity going on in our lower region, in our belly and limbs. Similar considerations apply to plants. They are most awake (least asleep) in their upper, reproductive region, and most asleep and most vitally active in their vegetative sphere, especially below ground. What is will-force in us is vegetative growth-force in plants. What is perception for us is the formed contours of the plant, especially the flower. Steiner addresses the first of these relationships in Lecture Three, where he talks about the formation of plant protein, and the second relationship in Lecture Seven, where he discusses fruit trees, fragrances, and ecological relationships with the animal world. I'm sorry that my following comments will have to be quite aphoristic. As you mention, the key element in understanding astrality, is nitrogen. If one considers nitrogen, one finds inherent in its chemistry the same polarity that we find with the soul. Nitrogen can be exceedingly inert (quiescent), as it is in elemental form in the atmosphere, or it can be exceedingly active, as it is when in combines with other elements (e.g., just about every explosive contains nitrogen). Nitrogen, therefore, can function as the _vehicle_ of the soul as it moves in humans between the head and the limbs, or in nature between the atmosphere and the ground. A deliberate act of will involves two steps: the intent, which is conscious, and the actual movement, which is unconscious (we only become conscious of it after we have done it). Physiologically, the first step involves a catabolic, oxidative process. This is related to respiration; this is where the soul activates nitrogen (probably via calcium) and uses it to "drag" the inhaled oxygen to the carbon and then expel them as CO2. The parallel process in nature played out most prominently by the legumes. The "fixation" of nitrogen by bacteria in their root nodules is probably only part of a larger phenomenon. ("Fixation" is somewhat misleading, since the process involves making the inert atmospheric nitrogen more active.) Certainly the bacteria also respire and release CO2. I suspect, moreover, that another process, which Steiner speaks of mostly in connection with the human will, is also involved, namely, the process where carbon and nitrogen combine to form temporary cyanide compounds (which are then neutralized by sulfur). In any case, the function of the first step is to overcome the rigidity of carbon and thereby to make space for something new, a particular movement. The first step then stimulates the second step, in which the burned up matter is replaced, resulting in a movement that corresponds to the original intention. This latter is an anabolic process, which takes place rapidly in human muscles and in plants manifests as the process of vegetative growth. This, I believe, is basically the process that Steiner sought to imitate and enhance with the horn manure preparation (#500). This preparation is a highly ensouled product (first by the cow and second by the earth during the winter) and, because it is applied only in homeopathic quantities, its function is clearly as a stimulus to vertical growth (Steiner says it "pushes from below"). I simply don't have time now to go into the physiology of perceiving, but it too is a two-fold process that I'm sure is related to the reproductive phase of plant life. Steiner does not speak very much in the agricultural lectures about the chemical processes involved, but I do believe that these can be shown in detail to be related to silica and nitrogen and to the horn silica preparation (#501). This latter is intimately related to all the atmospheric astrality that is discussed in Lecture Seven. I'm sorry I can't flesh this out more here. Maybe at some future date. Sincerely yours, Malcolm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 24 00:11:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA20582 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 00:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA12501; Sun, 23 May 1999 23:52:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ctc.swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA12259 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 23:49:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (ctca231.vthokies.net [206.153.172.231] (may be forged)) by ctc.swva.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id XAA28589 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 23:54:43 -0400 Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 23:54:43 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990523235830.5227bb9c@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: OFF: Resurrection & BD Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 981 At 10:23 AM 5/13/99 EDT, Anita Graf wrote: >Dear Malcolm, > >I appreciate the time and thought you put into your post. I am >always happy to see an analysis of either the bible or Steiner >writings that can help me understand either as I find them so >difficult to penetrate. I am wondering if, in the light of what you >have already said, if you could elaborate for me more on the >*meaning* of the crucifixion and resurection for post-Christ human >life. I have heard the words of the evangelists ("Christ died for >our sins" etc) but I have yet to make any sense of this in a way that >is meaningful to me. I'm hoping you might be able to tell me >something that clicks. > >Thank you, >Anita Well, if I haven't gotten into trouble already, I probably will now! What I'll try to share is my present understanding of Steiner's perspective on the excellent question that you ask. I might paraphrase your question: Yes, if we believe that Christ died for our sins, what's left for us to do? Why do we still have to carry out His commandments? What's the real connection between His Deed and our deeds? Let me take you back to Genesis. All our sins can be traced back to the Original Sin, to our original separation from God, which is known as the great Fall from Paradise. Did you ever wonder how the Serpent got into the Garden of Paradise in the first place? In some sense, God Almighty must have _allowed_ the Serpent to enter the Garden. Why? Because the one thing that God could not do directly, was create a creature that was _independent_ of Himself. The much maligned Serpent brought us the gift of freedom, made us into separate, self-conscious souls. The price of this gift, however, was death (mortality). Through Lucifer, the Serpent, we acquired a temporary self-consciousness, one that depended on the life of the material body and ceased when this was used up. In order to save this self-consciousness, to allow the souls to continue to exist after the death of the body, God had to sacrifice something of Himself--His only begotten Son. He had to send His Son to experience and _conquer_ death, so that in consequence all human souls might have the possibility of retaining their individual consciousness after the death of their body (i.e., of reversing the Fall and beginning the Ascent). It is then each human soul's free choice whether or not to accept God's gift of his Son (and the Son's gift of the Holy Spirit). As God allowed the Fall, so He had to allow the Ascent. That was God's karma, so to speak. Certainly God's sending of His Son was an act of Grace--something that the individual human souls had not earned--but by the same token the Fall from Paradise was also not something that the individual human souls had earned, for at that time there were no individual human souls. "Adam" and "Eve" were humanity's collective soul, which only began to be individualized after the Fall. The Temptation by the Serpent took place at a level _below_ the level of the individual soul (ego); in Steiner's terminology, Lucifer corrupted the human "astral body" and this in turn corrupted the human etheric and physical bodies so that the Original Sin became an Inherited Sin. Because this event took place "below" the soul, in the body, therefore the compensating divine event had to take place "above" the soul, at the level of the spirit (or more precisely, in Steiner's terminology, at the level of the "spirit-self"). The man Jesus was graced to be the first to receive the divine Christ Spirit into his soul, and through this he acquired the strength to resist and heal the effects of the Temptation and the Inherited Sin in his body. If we choose to ask for it, we too can receive this grace and thereby allow the gods to repair our fallen condition. Thus does the karma of the gods play itself out below and above, and also through, the human ego. (See Steiner's lecture "The Concepts of Original Sin and Grace," May 3, 1911, and his lecture "The Death of a God and its Fruits in Humanity," May 5, 1912, in The Festivals and their Meaning.) But the karma of the gods is now also intertwined with the karma of the individual human souls. As members of the human race with earthly bodies we are burdened with Original Sin--our body is separate from God--but as individual human souls our personal karma also works back on the human race (and on the earth itself). At the personal level we have to pay compensation for our sins according to the strict laws of karma (divine justice). For example, if I injure someone, I may have to endure the same injury done to me ("an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" Exod. 21:24). In this case personal justice would be done, but the world as whole would suffer a net loss because the result would be two equally injured persons. Original Sin, therefore, not only affects the body of humanity directly (this is a matter of divine karma), it can also affect it indirectly, via the objective consequences of an individual's personal karma. Karmic compensation or balance, however, can come about in many ways. Instead of receiving an equal injury, justice would also be served if I nursed the person I injured back to full health. And the net result of this for the world would be two healthy people. So what determines whether personal karma unfolds in a way that hinders mankind as a whole or in a way that helps it? According to Steiner, this is where human repentance and divine forgiveness come in. If I repent my injurious action and ask Christ Jesus for forgiveness, He can intervene in my karma and can take it upon Himself to arrange that my karma is fulfilled in such a way that mankind and the earth as a whole are helped rather than hurt. This is the meaning of Christ's "forgiveness of our sins." (See Steiner's lec. of July 15, 1914, in Christ and the Human Soul.) So, please regard this as a very, very sketchy summary of my own, possibly flawed understanding of Rudolf Steiner. Nevertheless, I hope this goes some way toward explaining how Christ's "dying for our sins" is related to our keeping of His commandment to forgive--i.e., love--one another. In deference to the fact that this is a BD agriculture list, I would just add that in Steiner's view the earth is the body of humanity and that nature suffers from the consequence of the Fall as much as humanity does. But please note that Steiner never talked about Christ in any dogmatic or denominational sense. Steiner was a scientist who had the ability and the courage to explore the spiritual worlds as other men do the physical world. For Steiner, Christ was simply a living, spiritual, infinitely significant Fact. A Happy Whitsun to you, Malcolm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 24 02:06:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA21456 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 02:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA18106; Mon, 24 May 1999 01:49:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA18021 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 01:45:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.139.143] (max7-16.stc.net [208.210.134.16]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA22486 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 01:50:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990516211004.70106.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 01:52:26 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 982 Dear Connie, Vincent, et. al., In modern times it is customary to imagine that we are emancipated from the rest of the universe, as though we lived in a vaccuum here on Earth. We see we are dependent on the sunshine, wind, rain and soil of our planet, but beyond that it is not so clear what else our lives depend on. Nowadays we are apt to think in terms of staying under the ocean in a nuclear submarine for months and months living in a reprocessed atmosphere and eating from the ship's stores--or even living on a space station for months, or perhaps years, at a time. The sorts of medical concerns associated with living in such isolated environments as underwater submarines or orbiting spacecraft are not common knowledge, so they are not a part of our cultural views on the subject of how the Sun, Moon, planets and stars influence our day to day life and affairs. Just for example, few people are aware of the fact that astronauts have a serious problem with their bones losing calcium if they stay for any length of time in space. There's an immense amount of science fiction in our culture and almost none of it acknowledges this problem. A biodynamic farmer would probably say, "Of course! Calcium is associated with the earthly polarity of forces, with weight, gravity, opacity, holding things together and so forth. In orbit there is much less of the earthly polarity of forces and thus very little to hold the calcium in the bones." NASA on the other hand looks at the situation as if it were a minor mystery why astronauts suffer from bone loss if they stay any length of time in orbit, and they have tried to address the problem (with little success) by exercise, artificial gravity and a high calcium diet. NASA research on the subject is still looking for answers and will have to find some before colonies can be established on the Moon or on Mars. Biodynamic agriculture has a very considerable leg up on the rest of modern science because it recognizes the existance of both substance AND ether. The different elements (or states) of substance are fire, air, water and earth. These are like the four fingers of the hand. Without ether, without something to enliven them, they are useless. Ether is to substance as the thumb is to the other four fingers. It brings substance to life and makes the most marvelous things happen. With each state of substance there is a state of the ether associated with it. With fire it is warmth--the two are inseparable. With air the associated ether that brings it to life is light. With water it is tone. Really all chemistry is based on the properties of water, solutions and tonal vibrations. Chemical reactions take place when atoms have vibrational affinities or dissonances and chemical bonds are forged or broken. So sound and chemistry are one and this ether can be called the tone ether. With earth, with the solid state, the life principle is so concentrated that we can call it the life ether. After all, consider where people usually imagine they "live" in their bodies. Mostly they imagine they live in their heads, the densest structure of the whole body. There are some simple rules that describe the way ether works in the universe. For example, substance is drawn together by gravity. What draws it apart--and as any astronomer knows, the universe is expanding--is ether. As the universe expands outward in every direction, ether is streaming into the universe from the void in every direction. Where substance has a tendency to flow from greater concentration to lesser concentration, ether flows from lesser to greater concentration. Maybe I should also mention that from our limited perspective of machines, cities, central governments and Euclidean geometry we tend to think of the shortest distance between two points as being a straight line. However, space and nature usually abhor straight lines. If we shoot a rocket to the Moon we cannot load it with enough fuel to get it there in a straight line. We have to shoot it with a highly curved trajectory if we hope to get it there at all. People with little experience using guns often imagine if you get something in your sights and squeeze the trigger you will hit it. Think again. The bullet follows a curved trajectory and if the target is far away the shooter must aim high for the bullet to hit on target. Now imagine this. Where you see the Sun is never where the Sun is, but rather is where the Sun was 8 minutes ago. Where the Sun is when you see it is actually far from where it looks to be. The Sun, of course, is not traveling in a straight line, but rather follows a spiral trajectory towards what astronomers call its "Great Attractor" or "Celestial Goal." What we see as the solar system or family of planets revolving around the Sun looks like a dinner plate or flat disc. It is not so, however, and we only see it that way because of the illusion caused by the speed of light being so slow. In actuality the solar system is a vortex with the Sun out in front drawing its phalanx of planets along in its wake. In the process ether is streaming into the solar system in much the same fashion as it streams into the universe from the void. In the process the different bodies of the solar system are gradually becoming farther and farther removed from each other. The Earth is gradually falling behind in its race to keep up with the Sun, and the Moon likewise is gradually receeding from the Earth, etc. The Moon, for example, is somewhere between two or three feet farther away from the Earth than it was when Neal Armstrong set foot on it. Another point of note is that the Sun is not only the greatest concentration of substance in our system, it has the most concentrated ether conditions too. It is the biggest vortex for ether flow (levity) as well as gravity. And this ether flow is drawn into the Sun around the solar equator, though it flows outward and deeper into the universe at the Sun's poles. In similar fashion the ether flows into the Earth vortex around the terrestial equator and exits at the poles. This is opposite to the flow of matter. Hydrogen is drawn into the Sun from nearby space at the solar poles, and calcium and related elements (created by fusion of hydrogen into heavier elements by the Sun and ejected via solar flares or prominences) is drawn into the Earth at the poles (this is what causes the phenomena known as the northern and southern lights or aurora). There are many observations which point to the truth of what I'm saying, but perhaps the most significant ones as far as biodynamic agriculture are concerned is the way horns have developed in cattle and deer species. With cattle there are a number of species which have evolved in high latitudes and have short horns or no horns at all. Whereas, species in tropical or near subtropical regions tend to have massive horns. Amongst ruminant animals cattle are the most introverted, the most inward, and the females, the receptive sex of the species have by far the heaviest horns. Moreover, their horns are filled within with bone and blood. With deer and related species such as elk, moose, reindeer the situation is reversed. These are the most extroverted ruminants and here only the males have horns. Moreover their horns develop with the blood flow on the outside and the horns (antlers) branch considerably. But in the tropics the Kenyan or Philippine deer develop only short prongs at best, while in high lattitudes such as Canada and Siberia these species develop great racks of antlers. With the deer species the antlers serve more or less as valves or channels for the outward flow of life forces (ether) while near the equator the enormous horns of Kenyan cows serve as antennaes to receive etheric forces. In such observations we have clear indications of the existance of life forces and we see the rules of their behavior. There is something else that is ever so characteristic of life forces or etheric forces. Where life is concerned order arises out of chaos. Where lifeless conditions prevail order dissolves into chaos. What is taught in physics as the second "law" of thermodynamics (heat driven systems of moving parts) is that all thermodynamic systems increase in entropy or disorderedness. The idea is that heat inevitably is lost and becomes unavailable and in the process the universe moves toward greater and greater chaos. With living systems this simply is not how they behave. For example, the soybean seed is a very simple thing that sprouts and grows into a very complex structure, absorbing warmth, light, tone and life ethers in the process. Water flowing down a drain separates out into the coolest and densest layers flowing down the center of the whirlpool as it goes down the drain, while the warmer and more chaotic layers are flung to the sides. Tornadoes are formed when warm updrafts meet cold upper air masses and the cold air finds a "drain" to flow down. As it falls it spins into separate layers with the coldest ones at the center moving downward with wild speed while the warm air is moved out and upward around the edges of the black funnel. Clouds grow by drawing in moisture (as well as light and warmth) and concentrating it, again creating order out of chaos and defying the second law of thermodynamics. So we don't have to just look at cattle and soybeans to see how life forces operate or to find living systems that defy the rules of lifeless physics. It is noteworthy that life is cyclical. It must be so. A soybean plant cannot engulf the world as there are finite limits, both seasonal and territorial, to its growth. A cloud cannot grow forever, but must die as rain. A tornado dissipates when there is no longer a sufficient differential between rising warmth and falling cold to feed it. The whirlpool formed in a drain dies when the water all is gone. This leaves us to note that life force (ether), even though it flows from lesser concentration to greater concentration, must pass through growth, development, maturity and decline until it comes to rebirth. Thus with life there is evolution. There is a succession of lives, a constant renewal. To return to our starting place, Vincent said he found evidence that some ancient cultures figured Venus was important to their agriculture. Well in biodynamic agriculture there's no doubt that Venus plays a very important part in agriculture, most notably in the growth and reproduction of vertebrate species (of which mankind is one such). Connie writes that she isn't sure whether the planets themselves influence life on Earth or whether they simply represent certain energies. Actually this isn't at issue since each planet by virtue of its unique characteristics and position in the solar system focuses certain etheric energies and these affect life on Earth. Life on Earth would not be at all the way we know it if we did not have the Sun, Moon and planets interacting in motion against the starry background and channeling the etheric energies therefrom. Trines are 120 degree relationships (plus or minus a couple degrees) between Sun or Moon and planets rather than 30 degree relationships as Connie indicated, but she is quite right that in a holistic system of agriculture like biodynamics it has much merit to consider the relationships of the whole Solar family against the starry background. In fact, at the birth of biodynamic agriculture, in the very first lecture Rudolf Steiner gave on the subject of agriculture, he notes that while it is customary to begin the study of agriculture with the chemical elements that it really should begin with a study of the relationships of the farm to the Sun, Moon and planets with the backdrop of the universe around us. I realize that I've just lmentioned substance and ether here, and didn't go into astrality (which involves consciousness) or egoity (which involves individuality, character or personality). If Steiner's agriculture course is studied one soon runs into these things too, and it can be a bit confusing if one hasn't expanded one's viewpoints to the point that it becomes obvious that modern physics is in kindergarten in terms of its ability to explain the phenomena of living nature. That's my purpose here--to help those reading this list to see that the phenomena of nature are not explained well enough for us to be regenerative growers and heal the Earth until we get beyond the narrow restrictive viewpoints of our present university educational experience and see the importance of life forces and how they stream through the solar vortex from and to the stars and how they are focused and modified by the relationships of the Sun, Moon, planets and constellations. Please excuse me that I spent so much time writing this that I haven't time to edit it before sending it to the list. I do think this business of how the heavens affect agriculture is an important subject that deserves much more study than it generally gets. I'd say that in the study of biodynamic agriculture most people initially attracted to it fall by the wayside because they fail to understand how plants and animals are formed and live by way of the universal energies that are focused and channeled through the Sun, Moon and planets. I suspect biodynamics all too soon sounds too much like their cousin Mary who talks about her horoscope ad nauseum, using it as an explanation for all her problems (which she is not effectively dealing with) until you don't want to hear another whisper on the subject. At which point who would want to study biodynamic agriculture any further? Clearly it's into that "astrology stuff" and is just plain nuts. In reality, however, biodynamic agriculture is far ahead of the best "hardball science" in most of our universities, and it has virtually nothing in common with cousin Mary and her bubble-headed "astrology stuff." There are very definite rules and insights which translate into how the biodynamic preparations are made and used and how plants and animals are viewed in relationship to different minerals, soils, regions, seasons, lunar constellations and relationships between planets in the solar system and the stars. Regards, Hugh Lovel Vincent wrote: >>We know of course that the Sun and the Moon play an important role in >the >>life of the all things on the planet, and it is accepted in >Astrology that >>the planets influence our lives. But what of the >vegitable Kingdom? >>Wouldn't it also be true that the planets have an >influence on the Plant >>as well as the Human? >> >>The reason I ask is because I believe that I have found evidence in some >>ancient cultures who had mastered agriculture to suggest that the cycles of >>Venus were used. >> >>Vincent. >> And Connie wrote: > >I am not sure if it is the planets themselves that influence life on Earth, >or if the planets represent certain energies that come into play. That is a >study that could take me all my life, however, and I would rather be outside >working in my garden than worry about the 'whys'. > >I think the sun and moon are used extensivly because their energies >influence growth, but I would think you can use other planets along side >them. First, you would have to decide what plantatary energies you want to >work with. Anyone that is familiar with the basice of astrology could >probably figure it out.My knowledge of the subject is pretty basic, so I >will attempt some logical insights. > >Since the planets move slowly you might take their aspects with the sun and >moon into consideration instead of what zodiac sign they are in. Usually >conjunctions ( 0 to 2 degrees apart)and trine (28 to 32 degrees apart) are >considered favorable, while oppositions (178 to 182 )and squares ( 88 to 92 >degrees )are unfavorable. > >A flowering plant might be planted when Venus was favorable (beauty). >Jupiter is associated with abundance and expansion, planting food crops when >the Moon was in conjunction with Jupiter would be favorable. > >Harvesting grain would probably be best done when Saturn was favorable, you >would want to restrict growth at this time and let the crop dry. > >Anyone have any other ideas? > >What evidence have you found on the cycles of Venus? Sounds interesting. >Connie > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 24 02:11:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA21492 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 02:11:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA18320; Mon, 24 May 1999 01:52:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA18128 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 01:49:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.139.143] (max7-16.stc.net [208.210.134.16]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA22573 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 01:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3748258E.2EF59FB@flash.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 01:56:16 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: OFF: [Fwd: death & ashes] Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 983 Here's a light thought to leaven things with. > >A businessman on his deathbed called his friend >and said, "Bill, I want you to promise me that when >I die, you will have my remains cremated." > >"And what," his friend asked, "do you want me to >do with your ashes?" > >The businessman said, "Just put them in an envelope >and mail them to the Internal Revenue Service. >Write on the envelope, "Now, you have everything." Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 24 06:55:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA23609 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 06:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA25662; Mon, 24 May 1999 06:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA25619 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 06:30:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp329.cy-net.net [208.21.195.138]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA06582 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 05:35:33 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEA5A5.C47A7860@FLYLO>; Mon, 24 May 1999 05:24:59 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEA5A5.C47A7860@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: plan(ets) a thought Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 04:58:44 -0500 Encoding: 36 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 984 Hugh wrote: NASA research on the subject is still looking for answers and will have to find some before colonies can be established on the Moon or on Mars. This is very generalized (the conversations of late have been way out of my league), but a thought occurred: I wondered if the folk conducting the Biosphere tests had the same problem, bone loss, skin deterioration, etc that those other confined people faced. I suspect not. If it's the (as noted recently) air circulation around us that literally holds us together, then the NASA scientists are going to have to create environs that use this atmosphere, pressure, to do the same off-planet. And, if we're 'one with our world', then can off-planet explorers ever really succeed in conquering their own body's rebellion against being cut loose from the Earth? I'm thinking about the bone loss problems, skin degeneration problems, oxygen deprivation problems, mental acuity problems (from oxygen problems), etc. I'd think a major problem would be also man's reactions to fellow man if they're cut off from each other and from the outside. Akin to a fetus being severed from it's umbilical and kept alive via artificial methods. They may live and thrive, but at what cost? Would it be a cosmic joke or would it be a cosmic plan that allows man small forays to other planets, but not allow him lengthy stays. (So we can't go off for generations and muck up other worlds like we've done to this one.) Many on-list either grew up in Steiner school, or have been studying biodynamics for quite awhile. For the rest of us, this is heady stuff! Obviously knowing that we use the air, and it's pressure are grade-school lessons. But for myself, actually being able to 'see' the air column pressing onto (and into) a field, a tree, a plant, has been awakened by being a member of this list. No matter how (seemingly) off-topic, there usually is something to be learned from each post, and though sometimes hard to grasp, I enjoy them all. martha end From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 24 07:59:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA24119 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 07:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA27404; Mon, 24 May 1999 07:39:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA27231 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 07:35:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-144-27.s27.as4.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.144.27]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA17644 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 07:42:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <374939DE.FA34E8CF@erols.com> Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 07:37:02 -0400 From: Rex Harrill Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 985 Hugh Lovel wrote: > A biodynamic farmer would probably say, "Of course! Calcium is associated with > the earthly polarity of forces, with weight, gravity, opacity, holding things > together and so forth... Quite a post, Hugh, quite a post---for a while I thought perhaps someone had finally stuffed the entire universe in a box and taped it shut. :) If you get a chance, would you reconcile your remark that calcium holds things together vis-a-vis eco-ag's tenent that calcium tends to fluff the soil (as opposed to magnesium which sticks it together)? Thanks, Rex Harrill From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 24 09:30:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA25273 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 09:30:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01119; Mon, 24 May 1999 09:09:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00915 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 09:06:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.139.143] (max11-36.stc.net [208.210.136.36]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA08273 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 09:11:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00a201bea39a$97cc6b00$644b2e9c@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:13:12 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Internet Transmission of Homeopathic Medicine Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 986 Dear Julie and List, This could be exciting news, depending on the integrity of the investigators. Several years ago "The Amazing Randi", who has a considerable history of debunking fringe scientists and their claims, conducted a widely publicised experiment with Dr. Bienveniste concerning a homeopathic flu remedy. This stage magician may have actually believed that homeopathy didn't work since as accounts of the experiment relate that in the first trial, extreme dilutions of the remedy showed them to be active against the flu. However, all subsequent trials showed no such effectiveness, and one has to wonder if Randi's adeptness with sleight-of-hand didn't enter into the experiments. Certainly he had a prejudiced agenda he long has pursued. I suppose it was a lesson to Bienveniste and will serve to make him wary of further similar efforts to discredit homeopathy. If indeed Josephson and Park are honestly unbiased, no matter how skeptical they may be, it could signal a breakthrough for modern science and a beginning of the end for a large part of the the pharmaceutical industry. >From one point of view it seems unfair that such a cheap and effective modality as homeopathy would be the victim of suppression for so long. But, there is the fact that if it becomes widely accepted all at once it will seriously upset the status quo. Allopathic medicine is ever so good at surgery and emergency medicine, even though it doesn't hold a candle to homeopathic medicine when it comes to treatment of a wide range of diseases from cancer and degenerative diseases to infectious diseases. The idea that homeopathic remedies could be sent anywhere on the globe via the internet may seem a radical departure from the accepted premises of modern science. There have, however, been many such occurrances in the history of science and there will necessarily be many more. Back when Galileo published his views on the Earth revolving around the Sun it was a radical departure from the thinking of his times, but it was an idea whose time had come. The idea of sending remedies over the internet probably is an idea whose time has come. It surely will revolutionize medicine but medicine has been preparing for such an event for quite some time now. And it should be noted that with homeopathy diagnosis and prescription of the best remedies and dosages lies at the basis of its effectiveness. There are thousands and thousands of remedies that are very specific and most people will require the service of a doctor trained in homeopathy if they hope to get effective treatment. Sending remedies over the internet will just make securing the medicine cheap and easy and it won't make doctors obsolete. So at this point it won't upset too many applecarts. Rather it will make health care somewhat more affordable and more effective which is just what our times require. Regards, Hugh Lovel Julie Marquardt writes: > >Brain Josephson, who won a Noble Prize for Physics in 1973, and fellow >physicist Robert Park are close to agreeing on protocol for an experiment to >determine if homeopathic properties can be transmitted over the Internet. >The debate began because Park is among the critics of homeopathy who point >out that some remedies are so diluted that no active substance remains. The >two scientists are at odds over claims by a French biologist that during the >dilution process when homeopathic medicine is made, characteristics of the >active substances are transferred to the water molecules used in the >process. Given this assertion, homeopathic solutions without a single >molecule of biologically active substance could still be effective. The >scientific study was conceived because Jacques Benveniste, the French >biologist, also claims that the "memory" of the water in the homeopathic >solution has an electromagnetic "signature." The study will attempt to >capture the signature using copper coil, digitize it, and then transmit it >over the Internet. Specifics of the study are still under consideration, but >it is likely that Benveniste himself will examine the samples of water. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 24 14:47:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02699 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 14:47:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01759; Mon, 24 May 1999 14:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01323 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 14:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.111]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990524183018.RAAO7869945.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 06:30:18 +1200 Message-ID: <37499AB6.4F45@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 06:30:14 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Astrality & Plant Growth - part 2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 987 Astrality & Plants -Part 2 Geothe has presented us with the picture of the archetypal plant as being the stem, rounded leaf and axial bud. It is in this form that the plant most fully represents itself as a pure image of the plant kingdom, as an etheric / physical being. Any movement from this basic form is in response to the influences manifest in other kingdoms of nature. As the plant moves to form a root it is responding to the earthly forces of the mineral kingdom and as it moves towards leaf indentation, leaf metamorphosis and flowering it is responding to the animal kingdom with its internalised Astral body, while the production of fruit and seed is its response to the Ego forces, which when internalised go the make the human kingdom. While most plants do not internalise the Astral body, this picture shows us that much of the plant form we see is actually caused by the ‘etheric’ plant pushing up against the Astral body that surrounds it. With leaf indentation and flowering it is understood that the Astral body only needs to touch the ‘etheric’ plant for this occur, however in the case of leguminous and poisonous plants the astral body does actually enter into the plant. The alkaloids which are developed are generally of such an astral nature that human bodies can not over power (digest) them to make them food, so their astral strength overpowers our Astral, Ego, Etheric balance, so we experience them as astralising poisons which cause hallucinations, cramping and various palpitation expressions. For more detail on all the variations of this process I recommend "Healing Plants" by W. Peliken and "The Plant" vol 2 by G Grohmann especially the chapter on the Solanaceae, Papaveraceae, Leguminosae and Umbelliferae, Many examples are provided in these works of how the Astral body moves plant form towards the animal. However this one quote from Grohmann pg 63 vol 2 The plant may suffice for the present. "Let us take the flower. We explained how in some ways it seems to transcend a purely vegetative existence. The temporary creation of an enclosed space in the bud, colour, shapes resembling insects, cessation of carbon dioxide assimilation even in the light, setting in of decomposing metabolic processes (breathing) by drawing in oxygen and exhaling carbon dioxide like the animal, propagation by fertilisation (seemingly male and female) etc. - all this occurs because, when the plant flowers, it is touched from outside by an 'astral atmosphere'." Once looked at in this way the Astral body becomes a major factor in plant form development and in the creation of nutrition and medicines. Two of the main functions we find them of use. With this in mind I am left to question how can we see the Astral body represented in the descriptions of plant growth presented to us so far in the first two lectures of the Agriculture course? Ca & Si, inner and outer planets, cosmic and terrestrial forces, the agricultural individuality and the ethers have all been presented to us as influencing plant growth. In lecture 3 we are presented with the spiritual bodies. One important thing to appreciate about the Agriculture course and RS work and descriptions in general is that he is trying to describe a reality that while wholistic exists on many levels at one time. The creation we see manifest in front of us is a result of these several levels activity all acting simultaneously according to their own phenomena and in relationship to each other. I have described this before as being like a multi layered game of chess, however the BD chess game is taking place in the form of a vortex. As I see it, our particular immediate reality contained within our Galaxy, has six primary layers, with six secondary harmonic layers created through the interaction of these primary layers. ( see the "Apple of Life" on the Garuda web site). There will also be sub harmonic layers created as a result of these layers interaction with those above and below them, much like the effect of ripples in a pond. This picture may seem overly complex, only because it is. In "BD Decoded" I have tried to identify the primary six layers and show how they manifest within the larger picture of things as well as in RS descriptions of Biodynamics. The aim was to hopefully make discussions such as this more straight forward. These layers can be related to physical spheres of our creation as well as the spiritual bodies active in those spheres. The trick of the Agriculture course is to know (or at least be able to make an intelligent guess at) which part of which layer RS is discussing at any particular moment and what its relationship is to the other parts of the other layers. When looking into the relationships between all the ‘layers’ and players we have been provided with so far an investigation as too who is motivating the whole game could prove worthwhile. Creation as we perceive it has a few constants. One is spiralling movement and the other is cosmic forces emanating from Suns. After this there are secondary bodies such as planets, moons, asteroids and comets which essentially act as reflectors of the cosmic forces and benders of electromagnetic fields and forces. In our environment we have the solid Earth and the ever depleting atmosphere which lives within and responds to the cosmic forces and electo-magneto-neuclear forces and fields of our environment (in the big sense). As we have seen in other posts these large cosmic spheres are where we find the origin of what we term the spiritual bodies. ( see "the Big Picture" in Biodynamic Essays ). Most of what we have been presented with so far in the Agriculture course has been about the working of Earthly and Solar system phenomena. These phenomena (I believe) are secondary or subservient to the activity of the cosmic spiritual bodies we call Etheric, Astral and Ego. While all the parts of the picture "Ca & Si, inner and outer planets, cosmic and terrestrial forces, the agricultural individuality and the ethers" are realities in themselves, they are primarily motivated or driven by the working of the spiritual bodies (and the beings which stand behind them). So while we may talk of the light ether, dead air, direct outer planets, mars 1, the ‘belly’, terrestrial silica, nitrogen and earthly forces we are actually tracing the path of the Astral body through the various layers of our Earth vortex. To me the spiritual bodies are what is primarily real and all these words RS uses are only to help us neophytes keep track of the spiritual bodies activity in the immense complexity of the creation we live in. So given that the Astral body is so significant in plant form, albeit working on to it from outside, then I imagine any description of plant growth must contain elements of activities working from below as well as an equal portion of influences coming from above. As the books quoted above show, there would be no colour, leaf form, flowers, scent or plant medicines without the Astral body working in on and into plants from above. With the astral body of a plant being an external ‘organ’, it suggests that it lives strongly in the ‘belly’ of the agricultural individuality working from above. In lecture two we have a picture of the direct inner planets activity working downwards in a stream we call the cosmic calcium. This stream carries the etheric body to the earth and it is held to the Earth by the humus content of the soil. In balance to this we have the direct outer planets entering into the earth, being crystallised in the silica rocks at mid winter and raying upwards again the following season as ego inspired Cosmic Silica forces which work towards upright stem formation and seed formation. In lecture 6 we are presented with an opposing picture where we hear of the indirect inner planets working upwards from the earth as a terrestrial calcium stream providing cell division and tissue formation for the Cosmic Silica stream to carry upwards if it can. If it can not we have the flat rosette formation of the carrot and dandelion. In lecture 6 we are also presented with the activity of the inward moving indirect outer planets that work onto plants in the present season, influenced by the quality of light and sand content in the soil. Here we have the carrier of the Astrality. In this picture we are presented with the head/earth of the agricultural individuality being the sphere in which the physical and ego inspired outer planet forces ‘reside’, while the belly/environment is the sphere that the Etheric and Astrality ‘reside’. Life as we know it, especially plant growth, takes place within this capsule of ‘world’ spiritual bodies. This emphasises that within the living processes we meet in our agricultural life that we can look to identify not only the Earthly and the Cosmic but the Earthly forces (etheric) and matter (physical) along with the Cosmic forces (Ego) and matter(Astral). These four processes should be obvious in all creation. ( see "Genetic Engineering in the light of Biodynamics" in Biodynamic Essays as an attempt to indicate this fourfold perspective of the plant, fruit, cell and DNA molecule) ( I hope to put this article on my web site with diagrams in the near future ). To be continued Glen Atkinson copyright Garuda Trust 1999 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 24 15:02:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA03180 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 15:02:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03236; Mon, 24 May 1999 14:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA03137 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 14:41:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.124]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990524184853.RBUQ7869945.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 06:48:53 +1200 Message-ID: <37499F11.2276@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 06:48:49 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Astrality and plants Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 988 Bill A little reading Subject: Study: Astrality and plants -part 1 As there appears to be no rush to answer the question I posed recently I will dare to present a few ideas I have had on this matter. It appears to me from our discussions and others I have had over the years that while we have a highly developed understanding of the physical and etheric workings of plants we seem to have this idea that as plants do not incarnate an Astral body it does not play much of a role in plant growth. Interestingly though we seem quite happy to acknowledge the role of the ego in cosmic silica inspired upright stem growth leading to seed formation. We do see flowering and poisons as the plant being touched by the Astral but little more. One of the passaages that is quoted in support of this understanding is the second paragraph on pg 126 of SFFRA. "Now, we still need to take a look at the so-called plant diseases. Actuary, they should not be called plant diseases, because abnormal processes that occur in plants are not diseases in the same sense as they are in animals. (We will understand this difference better when we come to tak about the animal kingdom.) Most of all plant diseases are not the same as disease processes in human being. Actually illness is not possible without the presence of an astral body, which in an animal or a human being is connected with the physical body by means of the etheric body. There is a certain standard of normalcy for this connection, and most illnesses come about when the astral body unites unusualy intensely with the physical body or some particular physical organ; that is, when the etheric body does not provide enough padding, so that the astral body pushes its way into the physical body more strongly than usual. Now, since a plant does not contain an actual astral body, the particular way of being ill that is possible with animals and humans simply does not appear with plant. We must be quite aware of this fact and then try to understand what actually can cause plants to become ill." I agree with all that is said here. However like so much of RS work it can do with careful interpretation. Firstly this paragraph is about plant diseases. RS says plant diseases do not arise in the same manner as human or animal diseases as the astral body is not internalised. He then goes on in the following paragraphs and describes how plant diseases arise essential due to an overly active etheric process. ( he does leave room for some discussion of the words 'Cosmic forces' in that discussion - which ones?) I suggest though that the process he discribes above do take place with plants and that while plant diseases do not arise, pest attack does. The following lines "most illnesses come about when the astral body unites unusually intensely with the physical body or some particular physical organ; that is, when the etheric body does not provide enough padding, so that the astral body pushes its way into the physical body more strongly than usual." are a wonderful picture to have of the bodies relationship. In a human or animal there are all sorts of expressions of this process. Pain being an initial one, while bacterial infection, pulpitations of the heart, asthma, intestinal worms, flatulance and so on arise as the process continues. In plants the astral body (and ego) live outside the plant. This does not mean they are inactive, it means they work from outside inwards and that we should probably see the plant as not stopping at the edge of its leaves and fruit, but look to also 'see' the astral body which surrounds it. While many of us may not see it, it does not means it is not there. In lecture seven we are told insects are a manifestation within the astral body of plants. So seeing insects buzzing about your plants is seeing the plants astrality. Just as the 'quality' of the birds in an environment is showing us the astrality of that bio-region. So I suggest that the process outlined above, does occur with plants and that the etheric does recede, ( lessening its cushioning effect) due to low water, strong light and warmth etc and that as it recedes the Astral body does press too strongly into the physical body of the plant. This appears as greater leaf differentiation followed by a rush to flower and an almost immediate increase in insect attack. The insect attack can be defeated by reversing this process. As we already know if we can increase the level of cosmic matter/etheric forces in our soil through increasing the humus levels we provide the most secure form of the etheric cushion possible, and pest attack reduces accordingly. Watering, mulching, liquid manuring and prep. application all work to the same end too. Geothe has presented us with the picture of the archetypal plant as being the stem, rounded leaf and axial bud. It is in this form that the plant most fully represents itself as a pure image of the plant kingdom, as an etheric / physical being. Any movement from this basic form is in response to the influences manifest in other kingdoms of nature. As the plant moves to form a root it is responding to the earthly forces of the mineral kingdom and as it moves towards leaf indentation, leaf metamorphosis and flowering it is responding to the animal kingdom with its internalised Astral body, while the production of fruit and seed is its response to the Ego forces, which when internalised go the make the human kingdom. While most plants do not internalise the Astral body, this picture shows us that much of the plant form we see is actually caused by the ‘etheric’ plant pushing up against the Astral body that surrounds it. With leaf indentation and flowering it is understood that the Astral body only needs to touch the ‘etheric’ plant for this occur, however in the case of leguminous and poisonous plants the astral body does actually enter into the plant. The alkaloids which are developed are generally of such an astral nature that human bodies can not over power (digest) them to make them food, so their astral strength overpowers our Astral, Ego, Etheric balance, so we experience them as astralising poisons which cause hallucinations, cramping and various palpitation expressions. For more detail on all the variations of this process I recommend "Healing Plants" by W. Peliken and "The Plant" vol 2 by G Grohmann especially the chapter on the Solanaceae, Papaveraceae, Leguminosae and Umbelliferae, Many examples are provided in these works of how the Astral body moves plant form towards the animal. However this one quote from Grohmann pg 63 vol 2 The plant may suffice for the present. "Let us take the flower. We explained how in some ways it seems to transcend a purely vegetative existence. The temporary creation of an enclosed space in the bud, colour, shapes resembling insects, cessation of carbon dioxide assimilation even in the light, setting in of decomposing metabolic processes (breathing) by drawing in oxygen and exhaling carbon dioxide like the animal, propagation by fertilisation (seemingly male and female) etc. - all this occurs because, when the plant flowers, it is touched from outside by an 'astral atmosphere'." Once looked at in this way the Astral body becomes a major factor in plant form development and in the creation of nutrition and medicines. Two of the main functions we find them of use. With this in mind I am left to question how can we see the Astral body represented in the descriptions of plant growth presented to us so far in the first two lectures of the Agriculture course? Ca & Si, inner and outer planets, cosmic and terrestrial forces, the agricultural individuality and the ethers have all been presented to us as influencing plant growth. In lecture 3 we are presented with the spiritual bodies. One important thing to appreciate about the Agriculture course and RS work and descriptions in general is that he is trying to describe a reality that while wholistic exists on many levels at one time. The creation we see manifest in front of us is a result of these several levels activity all acting simultaneously according to their own phenomena and in relationship to each other. I have described this before as being like a multi layered game of chess, however the BD chess game is taking place in the form of a vortex. As I see it, our particular immediate reality contained within our Galaxy, has six primary layers, with six secondary harmonic layers created through the interaction of these primary layers. ( see the "Apple of Life" on the Garuda web site). There will also be sub harmonic layers created as a result of these layers interaction with those above and below them, much like the effect of ripples in a pond. This picture may seem overly complex, only because it is. In "BD Decoded" I have tried to identify the primary six layers and show how they manifest within the larger picture of things as well as in RS descriptions of Biodynamics. The aim was to hopefully make discussions such as this more straight forward. These layers can be related to physical spheres of our creation as well as the spiritual bodies active in those spheres. The trick of the Agriculture course is to know (or at least be able to make an intelligent guess at) which part of which layer RS is discussing at any particular moment and what its relationship is to the other parts of the other layers. When looking into the relationships between all the ‘layers’ and players we have been provided with so far an investigation as too who is motivating the whole game could prove worthwhile. Creation as we perceive it has a few constants. One is spiralling movement and the other is cosmic forces emanating from Suns. After this there are secondary bodies such as planets, moons, asteroids and comets which essentially act as reflectors of the cosmic forces and benders of electromagnetic fields and forces. In our environment we have the solid Earth and the ever depleting atmosphere which lives within and responds to the cosmic forces and electo-magneto-neuclear forces and fields of our environment (in the big sense). As we have seen in other posts these large cosmic spheres are where we find the origin of what we term the spiritual bodies. ( see "the Big Picture" in Biodynamic Essays ). Most of what we have been presented with so far in the Agriculture course has been about the working of Earthly and Solar system phenomena. These phenomena (I believe) are secondary or subservient to the activity of the cosmic spiritual bodies we call Etheric, Astral and Ego. While all the parts of the picture "Ca & Si, inner and outer planets, cosmic and terrestrial forces, the agricultural individuality and the ethers" are realities in themselves, they are primarily motivated or driven by the working of the spiritual bodies (and the beings which stand behind them). So while we may talk of the light ether, dead air, direct outer planets, mars 1, the ‘belly’, terrestrial silica, nitrogen and earthly forces we are actually tracing the path of the Astral body through the various layers of our Earth vortex. To me the spiritual bodies are what is primarily real and all these words RS uses are only to help us neophytes keep track of the spiritual bodies activity in the immense complexity of the creation we live in. So given that the Astral body is so significant in plant form, albeit working on to it from outside, then I imagine any description of plant growth must contain elements of activities working from below as well as an equal portion of influences coming from above. As the books quoted above show, there would be no colour, leaf form, flowers, scent or plant medicines without the Astral body working in on and into plants from above. With the astral body of a plant being an external ‘organ’, it suggests that it lives strongly in the ‘belly’ of the agricultural individuality working from above. In lecture two we have a picture of the direct inner planets activity working downwards in a stream we call the cosmic calcium. This stream carries the etheric body to the earth and it is held to the Earth by the humus content of the soil. In balance to this we have the direct outer planets entering into the earth, being crystallised in the silica rocks at mid winter and raying upwards again the following season as ego inspired Cosmic Silica forces which work towards upright stem formation and seed formation. In lecture 6 we are presented with an opposing picture where we hear of the indirect inner planets working upwards from the earth as a terrestrial calcium stream providing cell division and tissue formation for the Cosmic Silica stream to carry upwards if it can. If it can not we have the flat rosette formation of the carrot and dandelion. In lecture 6 we are also presented with the activity of the inward moving indirect outer planets that work onto plants in the present season, influenced by the quality of light and sand content in the soil. Here we have the carrier of the Astrality. In this picture we are presented with the head/earth of the agricultural individuality being the sphere in which the physical and ego inspired outer planet forces ‘reside’, while the belly/environment is the sphere that the Etheric and Astrality ‘reside’. Life as we know it, especially plant growth, takes place within this capsule of ‘world’ spiritual bodies. This emphasises that within the living processes we meet in our agricultural life that we can look to identify not only the Earthly and the Cosmic but the Earthly forces (etheric) and matter (physical) along with the Cosmic forces (Ego) and matter(Astral). These four processes should be obvious in all creation. ( see "Genetic Engineering in the light of Biodynamics" in Biodynamic Essays as an attempt to indicate this fourfold perspective of the plant, fruit, cell and DNA molecule) ( I hope to put this article on my web site with diagrams in the near future ). To be continued Glen Atkinson copyright Garuda Trust 1999 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 24 15:11:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA03491 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 15:11:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03992; Mon, 24 May 1999 14:49:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA03201 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 14:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.124]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990524184957.RBYG7869945.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 06:49:57 +1200 Message-ID: <37499F52.7F21@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 06:49:54 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Astrality - resend Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 989 Sorry for the resend Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 24 18:44:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA08538 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 18:44:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA23343; Mon, 24 May 1999 18:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA23193 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 18:24:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.109.139]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990524223142.KHGW7623210.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 10:31:42 +1200 Message-ID: <3749D355.6255@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 10:31:49 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Plan(e)ts Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 990 Hugh Call me predictable, but I dare not let this doosy pass into the ethers and annuals of this lists time without hailing my objection. > In reality, however, biodynamic agriculture is far ahead of the best > "hardball science" in most of our universities, Agreed and it has virtually > nothing in common with cousin Mary and her bubble-headed "astrology stuff." I beg to differ and suggest the more you look into Astrology, the role of the planets in biodynamics and the astral body who may just see they are near on identical. Granted cousin Mary is working at a neophyte end of the science art but nevertheless it is a honourable timeless art that hardly deserves your disparaging connotations. > There are very definite rules and insights which translate into how the > biodynamic preparations are made and used and how plants and animals are > viewed in relationship to different minerals, soils, regions, seasons, > lunar constellations and relationships between planets in the solar system Sounds like Astrology to me. A dictionary interpretation of Astrology will sound somewhat similiar. As far as I understand it Astrology encompasses all knowledge related to a heavenly bodies influence upon life on Earth. I look forward to your description of the planets influence and the Astral body without you sounding like an Astrologer. Given the appalling reputation science has developed for itself of late due to GE and massive toxic disasters, I would rather be identified with Astrology than science right now. cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 24 22:56:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA11538 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 22:56:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10533; Mon, 24 May 1999 22:29:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10060 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 22:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.139.143] (max8-15.stc.net [208.210.134.143]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA29779 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 22:31:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <374939DE.FA34E8CF@erols.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:32:51 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 991 >If you get a chance, would you reconcile your remark that calcium holds things >together vis-a-vis eco-ag's tenent that calcium tends to fluff the soil (as >opposed to magnesium which sticks it together)? > >Thanks, >Rex Harrill Dear Rex, Thanks for this opportunity to expound. Really I should have mentioned lime, rather than calcium, since lime relates very strongly to both calcium and magnesium. Very truly calcium sulfate is well-known for leavening, lightening, loosening our clay soils here in the southeast. It is called "land plaster" (with a wonderful southern drawl accent) and is applied "to make the peanuts peg." Really it is a fertilizer since both the calcium and the sulfur are just the thing for peanuts. But because the fertilizer institute has lobbied in every state for "quality fertilizer laws" (meaning minimum 15% soluble nutrients) it is unlawful to call calcium sulfate a fertilizer when its nutrients are insoluble though highly available to plants like peanuts. Really, calcium sulfate is also the basis for plaster, plaster of Paris, gypsum wallboard and so forth. It's pretty glue-like when not incorporated at low dosages with soil. And limestone is the basis of cement, mortar mix, many glues, etc. So maybe you can see where I'm coming from. However, you're quite right that magnesium--which is a significant component of dolomitic limestone, the harder limestone--hardens the soil and makes it tight while calcium and calcitic limestone tend to loosen up the soil. There's an important piece of this puzzle that comes straight out of Louis Kervran's research with biological transmutation. Oxygen is the carrier of life. Magnesium is calcium without the oxygen. As far as biological nuclear reactions go magnesium 24 plus oxygen 16 transmutes into calcium 40. This explains the fact that soils in the midwest commonly test much higher in magnesium and lower in calcium in the winter when they are water logged and oxygen deficient than they do in summer when they have dried out and taken in a lot of oxygen from the air. Many soil laboratories have assumed there were "masking factors" that concealed the true calcium or magnesium content of these soils when tested at different times. However, biological transmutation is a much clearer and better explanation. One of the principles of biodynamics is that sulfur is the element with which the spirit enters into interaction with substance. So with calcium sulfate we have a combination where the earthly, gravitational, grasping, glue-like calcium has sulfur and oxygen in superlative combination so that spirit and life force enter into this earthly element. It's a great soil amendment (which we dare not call a fertilizer because of the fertilizer laws.) It isn't the calcium which fluffs up the soil. It is the the life that does it. When one can bring the calcium (really the LIME the calcium and magnesium) in the soil to life, you can really open up the soil. But this isn't dependent only on the calcium, but rather it depends on the way calcium is brought together with such things as sulfur and oxygen. By the way, magnesium sulfate (epsom salts) is also used as a soil ammendment in places where the calcium/magnesium balance is off toward the calcium side. I have used it on my farm back when I kept showing soil test of magnesium deficiency and calcium excess, and I didn't know why. I discovered why. The reason was that with my application of BD 500 with Hieronymus's Cosmic Pipe I was overbalancing the environment toward the downward working forces. Magnesium works downward (along with copper and boron) much more strongly than calcium. In other words it is more condensive and gravitational then calcium, which is just what you are saying. So the calcium was staying in soil testing range, but the magnesium was going below that. I couldn't understand that until I realized I had too much downward forces and not enough upward ones. Once I corrected the cosmic pipe design so the forces were balanced the magnesium soil test came up without me applying any magnesium. But from this we can see how magnesium (chlorophyll) has more power than calcium to grab onto light and capture it's energies, transmitting them through phosphorus into carbon chemistry. In a certain sense, magnesium is more short of oxygen, more short of life, more grasping than calcium. Hopefully this provides more perspective as I've long found it impossible to capture more than a fraction of my thought on these things in prose. I've been advised (by my father, an accomplished poet) that poetry better and more easily expresses thought, but I'm trying to express technical things that I find difficult to put into poetic device. Perhaps I will still find a way, but don't hold your breath. See what you readers can make of this, please. Rex has touched on an issue that deserves further inquiry and much more understanding. Sincerely, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 24 23:34:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA12154 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 23:34:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14665; Mon, 24 May 1999 23:16:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f198.hotmail.com [209.185.130.108]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14513 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 23:14:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 36863 invoked by uid 0); 25 May 1999 03:19:43 -0000 Message-ID: <19990525031943.36862.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 206.74.2.131 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 24 May 1999 20:19:42 PDT X-Originating-IP: [206.74.2.131] From: "Connie Gilbert" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:19:42 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 992 Hugh, Thanks so much for the response and your explanation of ether and matter, I have printed it out and am going through it. You have given me much food for thought. Blessings Connie _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 25 07:08:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA15770 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 07:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA02001; Tue, 25 May 1999 06:49:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand4.global.net.uk (sand4.global.net.uk [194.126.80.248]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA01945 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 06:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peds01a01.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.129.238] helo=raithby.globalnet.co.uk) by sand4.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10mEqj-0004bE-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 25 May 1999 11:54:22 +0100 Message-ID: <374A803E.6A3C4712@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:49:34 +0100 From: ALISON EADES X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts References: <3749D355.6255@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 993 Has anyone ever heard of Michael Poynder's book 'Pi in the Sky'? I've had it for years but strangely enough its only now making sense to me and it approaches astrology from a more scientific point of view. However, the book is not scientific and it is really explaining about the effect of the different energies on the Earth - especially from the viewpoint of stone circles, and the meaningful artifacts which archeologists have been calling ornamental jewellry. It centres on Newgrange in Ireland and explains the origins of sacred geometry. It makes a lot of sense. Wonderful book! Alison Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > Hugh > > Call me predictable, but I dare not let this doosy pass into the ethers > and annuals of this lists time without hailing my objection. > > > In reality, however, biodynamic agriculture is far ahead of the best > > "hardball science" in most of our universities, > > Agreed > > and it has virtually > > nothing in common with cousin Mary and her bubble-headed "astrology stuff." > > I beg to differ and suggest the more you look into Astrology, the role > of the planets in biodynamics and the astral body who may just see they > are near on identical. Granted cousin Mary is working at a neophyte end > of the science art but nevertheless it is a honourable timeless art that > hardly deserves your disparaging connotations. > > > There are very definite rules and insights which translate into how the > > biodynamic preparations are made and used and how plants and animals are > > viewed in relationship to different minerals, soils, regions, seasons, > > lunar constellations and relationships between planets in the solar system > > Sounds like Astrology to me. A dictionary interpretation of Astrology > will sound somewhat similiar. As far as I understand it Astrology > encompasses all knowledge related to a heavenly bodies influence upon > life on Earth. > > I look forward to your description of the planets influence and the > Astral body without you sounding like an Astrologer. > > Given the appalling reputation science has developed for itself of late > due to GE and massive toxic disasters, I would rather be identified with > Astrology than science right now. > > cheers > > Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 25 07:25:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA15897 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 07:25:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA02916; Tue, 25 May 1999 07:08:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alpha.unisa.ac.za (alpha.unisa.ac.za [163.200.97.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA02753 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 07:07:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from GWGATE-Message_Server by alpha.unisa.ac.za with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 25 May 1999 12:25:03 +0200 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 12:24:42 +0200 From: JC van Staden To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Himalays: directions Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 994 Hallo I'm a very recent subscriber to this list and find the discussions fascinating and enlightening (and it feels like I'm hearing all these things just when I'm ready to listen to it). I was wondering about the directions of walking (clockwise or counter): is it the same in both Northern and Southern Hemisphere; or does it also alternate like waterflow in a vortex? JC Van Pretoria (South Africa) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue May 25 16:12:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA26481 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 16:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA17736; Tue, 25 May 1999 15:19:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.hawaii.rr.com (smtp2.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17370 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 15:15:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phyl - 24.94.65.29 by smtp2.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Tue, 25 May 1999 09:17:25 -1000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990525084945.009409d0@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:13:39 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: INTERN in HAWAII Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 995 Intern Positions Available --------------------------------- Work with crop rotations in the tropics at an accelerated pace. We plant gardens every month making continual harvesting possible. Community living and working conditions Kahumana Community is a therapeutic community for seriously mentally ill adults. We grow food for our community kitchen and dining hall as well as a growing CSA. We are also working at expanding our livestock and orchard programs. For information contact: Phyl Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Homestead Road Waianae, HI 96792 Phone: 808-696-1010 Fax: 808-696-2020 Email: pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 26 01:16:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA06857 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 01:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA06031; Wed, 26 May 1999 01:03:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA05939 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 01:02:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.145] (max6-17.stc.net [208.210.133.145]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA05084 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 01:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BEA5A5.C47A7860@FLYLO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 08:07:39 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: plan(ets) a thought Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 996 >Hugh wrote: >NASA research on the subject is still looking for answers and will have to >find some before colonies can be established on the Moon or on Mars. > Dear Martha, I don't know how well I can respond to this. You've some good thoughts here. For instance, in the introduction to the Ag Lectures Steiner notes that people today have no idea that the forces which nourish and build their bones, muscles, sinews and abdominal organs are taken in through their breathing and even through their seeing. While what builds their brains and central nervous systems are the forces taken in through their digestion. There is real interest on my part to see whether if NASA really recreated the conditions of gravity, weight, etc. relating to lime even though in spacecraft in Lunar regions--what would be the result? If post menopausal women suffering from osteoporosis were to rightly (I believe eurhythmy would help them get it right) dine on sunshine and fresh air, along with a calcium rich diet, would this reverse their pelvic calcium loss? Best, Hugh >This is very generalized (the conversations of late have been way out of my >league), but a thought occurred: I wondered if the folk conducting the >Biosphere tests had the same problem, bone loss, skin deterioration, etc >that those other confined people faced. I suspect not. If it's the (as >noted recently) air circulation around us that literally holds us together, >then the NASA scientists are going to have to create environs that use this >atmosphere, pressure, to do the same off-planet. And, if we're 'one with >our world', then can off-planet explorers ever really succeed in conquering >their own body's rebellion against being cut loose from the Earth? I'm >thinking about the bone loss problems, skin degeneration problems, oxygen >deprivation problems, mental acuity problems (from oxygen problems), etc. >I'd think a major problem would be also man's reactions to fellow man if >they're cut off from each other and from the outside. Akin to a fetus being >severed from it's umbilical and kept alive via artificial methods. They may >live and thrive, but at what cost? >Would it be a cosmic joke or would it be a cosmic plan that allows man >small forays to other planets, but not allow him lengthy stays. (So we >can't go off for generations and muck up other worlds like we've done to >this one.) >Many on-list either grew up in Steiner school, or have been studying >biodynamics for quite awhile. For the rest of us, this is heady stuff! >Obviously knowing that we use the air, and it's pressure are grade-school >lessons. But for myself, actually being able to 'see' the air column >pressing onto (and into) a field, a tree, a plant, has been awakened by >being a member of this list. No matter how (seemingly) off-topic, there >usually is something to be learned from each post, and though sometimes >hard to grasp, I enjoy them all. >martha > >end Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 26 02:02:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA07328 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 02:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA07233; Wed, 26 May 1999 01:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA07152 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 01:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp10.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.110]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id AAA17130 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 00:22:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <012b01bea738$1178f720$6e4b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 00:24:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 997 Dear Hugh, Your post was wonderful. I've shared it with others & they agree. Has been filed in the "BD Gems" file for future reference, study & contemplation. I did want to voice my feeling about the final paragraphs however, as to me, as it seemed such a wonderful work seemed ended clouded by some poorly chosen words, or rather a strange departure on your part from your usual understanding of the nature of people... (brings to mind a certain Lovelgate thread...) I have to agree with Glen that this ancient, honorable art/science is not worthy of the comments made. But as in all paths, there are "bubble-heads"... those who perhaps do not grasp the true meaning, but hopefully in an attempt to understand themselves, act as if and it ultimately becomes a part of them. Then the light goes on. I've seen few places where is this more clearly demonstrated than in Biodynamics. And I believe it is so with astrology as well. And whether you get sick of cousin Mary's dissertations or not, she is working towards self-enlightenment, looking for answers, which is more than most of our society bothers with. Their "enlightenment" comes from the evening news. I can think of times when you have been accused of going on about cosmic pipes ad nauseum, so certainly you can see how when you believe in something very strongly, you feel compelled to share this wonderful wisdom with everyone who will listen. Frankly, I think that if anything will turn away prospective biodynamic farmers initially (before they get started) is the recipes for the preparations...yarrow in a deer bladder (and "get all reproductive organs to make sure it came from a Stag, keep the delicate bladder moist", etc.) oak bark in a cow skull, fresh is ok, ie half-decomposed flesh still attached...the whole thing sounds far more bizarre than astrology, if you ask me. And hey, if you can get past the fairies, devas & other elementals, well, astrology would be a relief - practically DESSERT! Of course I'm biased a bit, but I think that even most BD groups, farms, even Demeter, will say that folks will swallow working with the planetary forces far more readily than some of the rest, and that is why those things come later...after you're hooked on the concepts. It was suggested to me that biodynamics is yes, far ahead of science in its way, however, it too is limited (yeah, I know I tread on dangerous territory here...) For starters, it requires the killing of animals. I've read all the posts on that topic, having asked that question long ago, but I still, in my heart, struggle with that part of it. Even though farmlife is about life & death...and I see it each day, the preps require the best cow, the killing of the stag, all of it. Anyhow, Hugh, aside from my initial reaction (and I waited 24 hrs. to respond, as any person w/overemotional Cancer moon & prominent Pluto should practice) and my disagreement on what reasons might make prospective bd'ers think "it's just plain nuts", I really do appreciate your wisdom and the work you put into that piece. Clearly you are in 3rd grade!:-) A Kindergardener, Julie > In fact, at the birth of biodynamic agriculture, in the very first lecture > Rudolf Steiner gave on the subject of agriculture, he notes that while it > is customary to begin the study of agriculture with the chemical elements > that it really should begin with a study of the relationships of the farm > to the Sun, Moon and planets with the backdrop of the universe around us. > > I realize that I've just lmentioned substance and ether here, and didn't go > into astrality (which involves consciousness) or egoity (which involves > individuality, character or personality). If Steiner's agriculture course > is studied one soon runs into these things too, and it can be a bit > confusing if one hasn't expanded one's viewpoints to the point that it > becomes obvious that modern physics is in kindergarten in terms of its > ability to explain the phenomena of living nature. That's my purpose > here--to help those reading this list to see that the phenomena of nature > are not explained well enough for us to be regenerative growers and heal > the Earth until we get beyond the narrow restrictive viewpoints of our > present university educational experience and see the importance of life > forces and how they stream through the solar vortex from and to the stars > and how they are focused and modified by the relationships of the Sun, > Moon, planets and constellations. > > Please excuse me that I spent so much time writing this that I haven't time > to edit it before sending it to the list. I do think this business of how > the heavens affect agriculture is an important subject that deserves much > more study than it generally gets. I'd say that in the study of biodynamic > agriculture most people initially attracted to it fall by the wayside > because they fail to understand how plants and animals are formed and live > by way of the universal energies that are focused and channeled through the > Sun, Moon and planets. I suspect biodynamics all too soon sounds too much > like their cousin Mary who talks about her horoscope ad nauseum, using it > as an explanation for all her problems (which she is not effectively > dealing with) until you don't want to hear another whisper on the subject. > At which point who would want to study biodynamic agriculture any further? > Clearly it's into that "astrology stuff" and is just plain nuts. > > In reality, however, biodynamic agriculture is far ahead of the best > "hardball science" in most of our universities, and it has virtually > nothing in common with cousin Mary and her bubble-headed "astrology stuff." > There are very definite rules and insights which translate into how the > biodynamic preparations are made and used and how plants and animals are > viewed in relationship to different minerals, soils, regions, seasons, > lunar constellations and relationships between planets in the solar system > and the stars. > > Regards, > Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 26 03:55:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA08264 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 03:55:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA11831; Wed, 26 May 1999 03:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA11733 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 03:39:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.135.14] (max9-14.stc.net [208.210.135.14]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA08335 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 03:39:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: uai@stc.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <374A803E.6A3C4712@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> References: <3749D355.6255@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 02:07:40 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 998 >> >> and it has virtually >> > nothing in common with cousin Mary and her bubble-headed "astrology >>stuff." >> >> I beg to differ and suggest the more you look into Astrology, the role >> of the planets in biodynamics and the astral body who may just see they >> are near on identical. Granted cousin Mary is working at a neophyte end >> of the science art but nevertheless it is a honourable timeless art that >> hardly deserves your disparaging connotations. >> >> > There are very definite rules and insights which translate into how the >> > biodynamic preparations are made and used and how plants and animals are >> > viewed in relationship to different minerals, soils, regions, seasons, >> > lunar constellations and relationships between planets in the solar system >> >> Sounds like Astrology to me. A dictionary interpretation of Astrology >> will sound somewhat similiar. As far as I understand it Astrology >> encompasses all knowledge related to a heavenly bodies influence upon >> life on Earth. >> > >> >> cheers >> >> Glen A. Sorry, Glen, I didn't mean to slam astrology or astrologers. Rather what passes for astrology in our society tends to be superficial and wrong-headed and gives serious astrologers a bad name. I'd say that many a serious astrologer could learn quite a bit about the art by studying biodynamics and its insights into the matter. Then too, many a BD grower would doubtless learn a lot about his art if he made a serious study of astrology. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 26 07:19:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA09683 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 07:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA18679; Wed, 26 May 1999 07:06:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA18514 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 07:02:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-123.s60.as1.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.123]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA14590 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 07:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <374BD3D5.54098EBF@erols.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 06:58:30 -0400 From: Rex Harrill Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts References: <012b01bea738$1178f720$6e4b2e9c@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 999 Julie wrote: > Frankly, I think that if anything will turn away prospective biodynamic > farmers initially (before they get started) is the recipes for the > preparations...yarrow in a deer bladder (and "get all reproductive organs to > make sure it came from a Stag, keep the delicate bladder moist", etc.) oak > bark in a cow skull, fresh is ok, ie half-decomposed flesh still > attached...the whole thing sounds far more bizarre than astrology, if you > ask me. And hey, if you can get past the fairies, devas & other elementals... What is there to get "past"? What's wrong with these "recipes"? Are you saying that the average person trained in public school reductionist semi-science is incapable of understanding simple techniques with a dramatic 75+ year history of healing damaged farms? I once attended a lecture by Dr. Arden Andersen. During a more scornful moment, he spoke of a pesticide with a manufacturer's application recommendation that calculated to the very low parts per trillion range (about 3/4 ounce per acre as I remember it---with 80% of that being "inert" ingredients). "It's powerful stuff," he told us, "I've watched essentially a few atoms per acre zap bugs with a vengance." He then said, "Do you know that only a handful of the very best high-tech labs in the country can measure that poison at the dosage we're speaking of?" "All the rest," he added, "with equipment certified to only measure that pesticide in parts per billion, routinely report that they find *no detectable levels*." Obviously, the "none detected" is to keep the populace asleep to the reality of the poison applied to their food. Be that as it may, the toxic farmers keep buying, and using, the stuff because it w-o-r-k-s (in the sense that it disrupts life forms). My thought is that biodynamics should keep using (and instructing wanna-bees how to use) their life-enhancing preps without-any-apology-whatsover. They should do this simply because the recipies *do* work. If the semi-scientists want to get off their lazy a** one day and figure exactly why BD works, then that would be a good thing. Regards, Rex Harrill From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 26 08:16:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA10147 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 08:16:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21471; Wed, 26 May 1999 08:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21296 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 08:01:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.135.73] (pm3bky1-135-73.intrepid.net [209.190.135.73]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA28976 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 08:01:54 -0400 Message-Id: <199905261201.IAA28976@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts Date: Wed, 26 May 99 07:07:23 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1000 Hi folks. An explanation of the profound truths in astrology could take volumes. However, for those who want to explore the latest (and most ancient) revelations check in with Project Hindsight, ProjectHindsight@compuserve.com. One of the most compelling minds of our time -- Bob Schmidt -- has been translating more than 200 ancient Greek mansucripts which are astrological in nature. They've never been in a modern language before and are providing a treasure trove of information as to the astrological basis of Greek lfe during the Hellenistic Golden Age (220BC - 500AD.) They are also being sifted through Schmidt's trained philosophical outlook and his remarkable grasp of the power behind the Greek language. Astrology is on one level the absolutely ideal system for exact timing of any ritual including those related to biodynamics. Jeanne Mozier From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 26 08:41:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA10496 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 08:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23273; Wed, 26 May 1999 08:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23104 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 08:27:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp20.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.120]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id HAA15958 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 07:23:59 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <001b01bea772$e51dd340$784b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: <012b01bea738$1178f720$6e4b2e9c@oemcomputer> <374BD3D5.54098EBF@erols.com> Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 07:25:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1001 Rex, At ease Soldier! I'm not attacking the validity of a 75 yr. old methodology - biodynamics, any more than Hugh seemed, at first, to be hitting on a centuries-old study (he's clarified). I'm a believer & student (of both teachings, individually & in conjunction) It is all in the presentation I guess. Perhaps I've presented badly. But yeah, I still say stag bladders, cow skulls, devas, fairies, are tough to get past for your average Joe farmer (whether it works or not - so does homeopathy, but Joe Q. Public doesn't buy that either)...You disagree with that assessment? Or are you thinking I'm attacking Hugh? Calm down, I'm a fan of his too, and in that spirit, I follow one of my favorite Hugh Lovel pearls of wisdom - "Question Authority" Peace, Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex Harrill To: Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 5:58 AM Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts > Julie wrote: > > > Frankly, I think that if anything will turn away prospective biodynamic > > farmers initially (before they get started) is the recipes for the > > preparations...yarrow in a deer bladder (and "get all reproductive organs to > > make sure it came from a Stag, keep the delicate bladder moist", etc.) oak > > bark in a cow skull, fresh is ok, ie half-decomposed flesh still > > attached...the whole thing sounds far more bizarre than astrology, if you > > ask me. And hey, if you can get past the fairies, devas & other elementals... > > What is there to get "past"? What's wrong with these "recipes"? Are you saying > that the average person trained in public school reductionist semi-science is > incapable of understanding simple techniques with a dramatic 75+ year history of > healing damaged farms? > > I once attended a lecture by Dr. Arden Andersen. During a more scornful moment, > he spoke of a pesticide with a manufacturer's application recommendation that > calculated to the very low parts per trillion range (about 3/4 ounce per acre as > I remember it---with 80% of that being "inert" ingredients). > > "It's powerful stuff," he told us, "I've watched essentially a few atoms per > acre zap bugs with a vengance." > > He then said, "Do you know that only a handful of the very best high-tech labs > in the country can measure that poison at the dosage we're speaking of?" "All > the rest," he added, "with equipment certified to only measure that pesticide in > parts per billion, routinely report that they find *no detectable levels*." > > Obviously, the "none detected" is to keep the populace asleep to the reality of > the poison applied to their food. Be that as it may, the toxic farmers keep > buying, and using, the stuff because it w-o-r-k-s (in the sense that it disrupts > life forms). > > My thought is that biodynamics should keep using (and instructing wanna-bees how > to use) their life-enhancing preps without-any-apology-whatsover. They should > do this simply because the recipies *do* work. If the semi-scientists want to > get off their lazy a** one day and figure exactly why BD works, then that would > be a good thing. > > Regards, > Rex Harrill > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 26 12:57:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16591 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 12:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15984; Wed, 26 May 1999 12:46:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15849 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 12:45:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.220]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990526164659.NHHN7869945.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 04:46:59 +1200 Message-ID: <374C2580.75C8@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 04:46:56 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Project Hindsight Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1002 You may have an easier journey to Project Hindsight using this address http://www.ProjectHindsight-TGHP.com/ cheers Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 26 14:58:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19580 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 14:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00076; Wed, 26 May 1999 14:47:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA29811 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 14:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.89] (pm3shep2-163-103.intrepid.net [209.190.163.103]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01825 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 14:45:22 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:46:01 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: ADMIN: Just a Reminder: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1003 The archives for BD Now! are located at http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ Thanks! Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA BIODYNAMICS Now! temp mailing address: POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 26 15:08:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19785 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 15:08:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00970; Wed, 26 May 1999 14:57:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00693 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 14:54:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.89] (pm3shep2-163-103.intrepid.net [209.190.163.103]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA03402 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 14:54:04 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:55:58 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Woodchips on Paths Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1004 Greetings, Friends!! Buried here in the CSA project, but really enjoying it!! I picked up a bunch of surplus woodchips to use for paths in the kitchen gardens. (This is NOT for mulching around plants, only for keeping feet out of the mud.) For the life of me I can't remember or figure out if putting these (relatively!) green woodchips on the path will tie up nitrogen or biological activity from the food beds adjacent to the paths. I know the permaculture people put cardboard down before the chips, but I don't know (right now!) if that is necessary so that mulching the path doesn't slow plant growth. I'd appreciate your insights into this. Thanks!! Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA BIODYNAMICS Now! temp mailing address: POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 26 16:13:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA21295 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 16:13:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA07106; Wed, 26 May 1999 16:02:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06983 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 16:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 13512 invoked from network); 26 May 1999 20:01:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.44.216) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 26 May 1999 20:01:35 -0000 Message-ID: <012c01bea7b1$c8c73120$381ed2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Fw: Sheet composting &wood chips Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:56:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1005 A propos to Allan's request: -----Original Message----- From: Frank Teuton To: Tony & Moira Ryan ; Organic Gardening List ; j Date: Saturday, October 10, 1998 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Sheet composting &wood chips >Hi Moira, Joel, and everyone with wood chip curiousity; > >I finally went and looked up where I had read about this. In Humus no. 20, >July/August 1988, Edith Smeesters wrote an article entitled Une Mine D'Or: >Le bois rameal fragmente, (A Gold Mine: chipped wood branches). > >She extolls the virtues of chipped wood branches, especially bois d'ete, or >summer wood, which in combination with its leaves can have a C/N ratio as >low as 25 to 1. >(Heartwood from the main trunk can be as high as 300-600 to 1, and heartwood >also has more of the chemicals wood makes to resist decomposition). We're >talking about branchwood of three inches in diameter or less. > >A team in Quebec has been studying the use of wood chips since 1978, for the >Ministry of Energy and Resources. They even have a patent on some of these >uses, although not for economic reasons, it seems. > >One point of interest is that wood chip mulch actually raised the pH in >studies, contrary to the usual "Wood chips? Omygawd they'll make yer soil >too acid" sort of talk you hear in some circles. > >A few other results: > >Over a five year period in market gardens, increased yields of 50-300% from >a single application of two inches of chips plus either hog manure or >poultry manure; > >Better tasting strawberries; more dry matter in potatoes; > >Reduced aphid and nematode populations in strawberries; > >Better root development and much more mycorhizal development; > >Increase in pH and reduction in weeds. > >The group doing this research consisted of: > >Justin Brouillette of MMENVIQ, Antonio Gonzalez of the Center for Forest >Research of the Laurentides, Edgar Guay of the University of Laval, >Christian de Kimpe of Agriculture Canada, Lionel Lachance of the Ministry of >Energy and Resources, Gilles Lemieux of the University of Laval and Harold >Tremblay of the Ministry of Energy and Resources. > >One of several studies cited is E. Guay, L. Lachance, A. Lapointe, G. >Lemieux, Dix ans de travaux sur le cyclage biologique du bois rameal, MER, >Quebec, 1987 [Ten years of work on the biological cycling of branch wood] > >So there you go. > >One point to add to what Moira has said is that size of the chips does seem >to matter; the typical home chipper shredder produces smaller chips that >break down quickly (more exposed surface for microbial activity, I suspect) >and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that yer bigger earthworms are hauling >them underground also, making their disappearance into the humusphere even >more rapid. The big chunky pieces are a harder chew for the soil community >and so last longer, at least in my experience; also what Libby said about >moisture is right as rain, wood rots faster when it is kept humid (and yet >aerated). > >Frank--finally delivering on the wood chip front, gonna hafta empty and fill >me own compost bins soon; guess I don't need to join the gym just yet, eh? >:-) >-----Original Message----- >From: Tony & Moira Ryan >To: Organic Gardening List ; j >Date: Thursday, October 08, 1998 11:59 PM >Subject: Re: Sheet composting &wood chips > > >>joel b gruver wrote: >> >>> wood chips will certainly not break down over the winter... >>> let alone in a year.... wood is generally so resistant to decay that >>> there is very little carbon substrate available at any one time and >>> thus woodchips very rarely cause immobilization of nitrogen... but they >will probably be of more value on the paths until they have had sufficient >time to be colonized and decomposed by fungi... >> >>Joel >> >>My experience has been that provided the chips are made from green wood >>they break down surprisingly fast (six months or so if started in >>spring), even when stored on a concrete base. As a mulch directly on the >>soil they can turn into humus in as little as three months, Perhaps the >>organisms in my garden are particularly energetic. >> >>Moira >> >>Tony & Moira Ryan >>Wainuiomata, New Zealand >> >> > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed May 26 16:13:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA21304 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 16:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA07162; Wed, 26 May 1999 16:03:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA07006 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 16:01:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 14268 invoked from network); 26 May 1999 20:01:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.44.216) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 26 May 1999 20:01:48 -0000 Message-ID: <012d01bea7b1$d0b315c0$381ed2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: Woodchips on Paths Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:56:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1006 -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 2:57 PM Subject: OFF: Woodchips on Paths >Greetings, Friends!! > >Buried here in the CSA project, but really enjoying it!! > >I picked up a bunch of surplus woodchips to use for paths in the kitchen >gardens. (This is NOT for mulching around plants, only for keeping feet out >of the mud.) For the life of me I can't remember or figure out if putting >these (relatively!) green woodchips on the path will tie up nitrogen or >biological activity from the food beds adjacent to the paths. I know the >permaculture people put cardboard down before the chips, but I don't know >(right now!) if that is necessary so that mulching the path doesn't slow >plant growth. > >I'd appreciate your insights into this. > >Thanks!! > >Allan Balliett >Claymont Farm CSA >BIODYNAMICS Now! >temp mailing address: > POB 3047 > Shepherdstown, WV 25443 >Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 >FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 > > > >=========================================================================== > >BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, >dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food >that promotes human development. > >Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ > > >To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to > >listproc@envirolink.org > >In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): > >subscribe bdnow > >If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com > >a message to listproc@envirolink.org > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 27 09:33:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07235 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 09:33:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02429; Thu, 27 May 1999 09:21:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02222 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 09:18:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.89] (pm3shep1-163-19.intrepid.net [209.190.163.19]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28301 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 09:18:58 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <012c01bea7b1$c8c73120$381ed2d8@windows98> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:20:48 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Fw: Sheet composting &wood chips Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1007 Just for the record, chipped 'branch wood' is pretty nasty stuff to work with. I have never tried any on the beds (and w.b. loath to), but it's really too 'light' and 'fluffy' to even think of on paths. The pile we had delivered last year heated upon arrival, and yet, since we just couldn't bring outselves to use from the pile, the breakdown of this unconstructed, unprepped, pile has been minimal in almost a year's time. Just for someone's datapoint collection. Thanks for the post, Frank. Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA BIODYNAMICS Now! temp mailing address: POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 27 10:37:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA09864 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 10:37:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07539; Thu, 27 May 1999 10:26:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07246 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 10:23:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (cust122.nrvmax2.tor1.netrover.com [205.209.21.122]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21179 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 10:23:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: [OFF] GardenWater containers Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:27:16 -0400 Message-ID: <01bea84d$05c690c0$LocalHost@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1008 >BD Chemists : A local source has used 275 gallon plastic cubed containers from companies which make shampoos etc. and which are commonly used in this area by conventional growers for water and/or chemical applications. I looked at the label and could read something like "organosilicone".How bad, pervasive, is this?.....and are there lasting residuals? Should I not even consider using these as water storage? Is this rinseable, say with bicarbonate soda soak, and hot water at the carwash,... which at least directs it into the sewage treatment cycle instead of its inevitable direct rinse onto conventionally farmed soil? Any comments? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 27 11:32:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11735 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 11:32:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12669; Thu, 27 May 1999 11:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12509 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 11:20:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 15020 invoked from network); 27 May 1999 15:20:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.34.171) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 27 May 1999 15:20:15 -0000 Message-ID: <016c01bea853$ab460fc0$381ed2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: Fw: Sheet composting &wood chips Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:14:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1009 Allan wrote: >Just for the record, chipped 'branch wood' is pretty nasty stuff to work >with. Much depends on the fineness of the chipping. Madame Smeesters recommends getting the smallest chips available; I use a chipper/shredder that produces nickel to quarter size chips, and have made woodchip compost in as little as four months. It requires a lot of moisture and needs to be checked regularly in this regard---piles that heat up initially will then typically dry out during the hot Mid-Atlantic summer, if not watered, mixed with leaves or manure, and/or covered in some manner, for example with soil or compost fleece. I use the rough chipped wood I can have for free from my Montreal municipality as path material and in the compost pile--it may start out fluffy but it packs down, on the paths. After at least four months of composting I sift the material either through 1/2 or 1/4 inch screen, with rejects going into the next pile. The worms, at least, offer their full approval to this stuff, or so it seems to me! Joel Salatin makes extensive use of wood chips as winter bedding for his cattle; he adds grain as the manure pack builds, and later turns pigs as aerators into the whole business, as he describes in Salad Bar Beef... Frank---when the chips are down, he doesn't frown....:-) (BTW, am originally from DC/Baltimore area, now in Pointe Claire on the island of Montreal...) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 27 22:48:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA00768 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 22:48:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA06198; Thu, 27 May 1999 22:36:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06069 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 22:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.131.22] (max1-22.stc.net [208.210.131.22]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA20903 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 22:33:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: uai@stc.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:35:12 -0400 To: subscribe-bdnow-hugh-lovel From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Sosei Water conference Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id WAA06070 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1010 Here is the first of two parts describing my visit to Japan as a participant in the Sosei Water conference and the water discoveries I learned about there. I wrote this in March but it has taken this long for it to be translated and for Mr. Fukai to read it. I wanted him to read it before I passed it on to the list. Now he has indicated his generous permission for me to share it with anyone. Hugh Lovel Dear List Readers, I promised a report on my visit to Japan the week of Thanksgiving this past year (1998). But I've been on the road and had a lot of catching up to do whenever I've been home. Now, at last, here's the story. I was invited to Japan to speak at the first SoSei Water Stewardship Conference just after Thanksgiving at Nagano, the city of the Olympic Games, in Ueda Prefecture. This conference was conjoined with the Third SoSei Users Conference in a huge traditional style Japanese Hotel with tatamis, futons, and steamy Japanese bath--the cleanest and most wholesome hotel of all we stayed in. Fellow speakers included: Patrick Horsbrugh of South Bend, Indiana, founder of the Environic Foundation International; Richard Pinkham of Snowmass, Colorado, senior research associate for the Rocky Mountain Institute; Brad Cummings of Ontario Canada head of the Pollution Prevention and Mining Toxics Prevention Division Ontario Region of the EPA Canada; Professor Doktor Karl Reuß of Suderburg, Germany, Director of Poste Graduate Study Programme/Waste Management; Lim Chong Keat of Penang, Malaysia, archetect, urban planner and long time student/friend of Buckminster Fuller; Simon Reeves of Aukland, New Zealand, (environmental) Barrister and Solicitor; Callum Coats of Australia, the Schauberger water expert who we've heard so much about on this list, and Errol Samuel of Australia, an environmental consultant involved in design and engineering of environmental construction for the Sidney Olympic Games. Missing and in an anthroposophic hospital in Switzerland was Jennifer Green of Maine (USA), one of the world's leading authorities on water quality. Though she could not come she sent us a rousing, prayerful, written address and a very interesting video presentation demonstrating the Schwenk water quality (drop) testing method. Until you've experienced Japanese hospitality it is unlikely you could conceive of it. The first outward signs are the "arigato gozaimasu" and little bow as you are greeted, but it goes a lot deeper. Imagine first getting there by plane from Atlanta (16 hours over northern Alaska and down the Kamchatka Peninsula into Narita Airport) then the airport express train and a switch to the Shinkansen (bullet train) for travel (the fastest I've ever gone on land) over the mountains to Nagano to SoSei Headquarters. Up until this point, no one in Japan was rude, but they didn't know us. Callum Coats and I were met at the airport by American and Finnish interpreters and escorted to Nagano. Once at company headquarters, "Arigato gozaimasu! Arigato! Arigato! down the line with grinning handshakes. Soon we were on the way in a company van to President Fukai's house where we got to bathe in very warm Sosei Water in a deep tub with absolutely no soaps, detergents or shampoos. Those of us waiting our turn sat on cushions around a low table talking via interpreters with President Fukai and each other and feasting on a beautiful assortment of rice, sushi and sushimi out of sophisticated individual take-out containers. The beverage? Sosei water. I figured out my chop sticks (first I had to pull them apart kind of like pulling on a turkey wishbone). I'm 51 years old and have on a few occasions used chop sticks, but I had to really concentrate on it. Those little mouthfuls of nori, rice and bits of vegetables or raw fish (sushi), to say nothing of the bites of raw tuna or squid (sushimi), seemed to taste really good. There's something about Japanese food that seems very clean to me, though the idea of eating all that raw fish doesn't appeal to me outside that setting. Then it was my turn for the bath. I really needed it. I'd had a long trip by air and another whole trip by rail, and I was tired. Plus I'd had a painful crick in my back near my left shoulder blade ever since the day after my workshop with Peter Proctor at Fair Oaks, California. It was, if anything, brought to the fore by the "comfort" of a 16 hour Delta Air ride, and the other demands of travel such as wakefulness and much carrying of heavy luggage. I sank under the warm water. I was one of the last to bathe, and, no soaps or shampoos? It was the same bath water everyone before me had bathed in. How clean was I going to get in that? Nearly all the others were distance travelers like me. Nevertheless it looked clean and I soaked in it a bit and rubbed myself down from head to toe, immersing my head, scrubbing my hair and everything. I could have soaked all night joyfully. But there were still one or two people waiting, so I climbed out, toweled down and dressed. Back at the low table with all the cushions it suddenly dawned on me that I not only felt very clean and refreshed, but that pesky crick in my back was gone! Very interesting. Yoshitomo Nakata san was showing off Sosei water by scrubbing the grease off the back of the stove and the wall behind it with nothing more than a scrubbing pad and Sosei water. It seemed to work more or less like "Purple Power" but without the chemical stench or anything. This was the same water we were drinking. Very interesting. We were given large bottles of Sosei Water for drinking and taken to a very nice motel for the night. By early morning I was down to breakfast, having drunk an enormous amount of bottled Sosei water during the night. It was pretty good. Pretty good. We were whisked to company headquarters by van after breakfast and given a leisurly tour--it was get acquainted time. I think everyone understood that most of us had traveled great distances. Lunch was a party, and President Fukai gave away some little Japanese jackets with a sash--I don't know what they are called. Very nice though. And always we were encouraged to drink Sosei water. Pretty good water, more envigorating perhaps, though not sweeter than comes from my spring on the farm. President Fukai addressed us and said he would show us all about the Sosei water treatment process. He asked please not to laugh because the process was really very simple. Born in May, 1947 and growing up after the war, his father was in the hotel and restaurant business. About ten years back his father got cancer and died, and this made him take life more seriously. So he immersed himself in a study of Budhism and meditation. In the process he received the insights leading to development of the Sosei Water treatment process, which produced H3O2 or anionic water--pure water but water enriched by mono-valent OH- ions. This meant that even though it was so mild in its action that you could drink it, nonetheless it was so powerful a solvent and so effective at freeing up cations that it could take the place of soaps, shampoos, detergents of all kinds, even dry cleaning fluids such as perchlorethylene (aka Perc = the cleaning solvent most used in dry cleaning, a serious chlorofluorohydrocarbon [CFC] threatening polar ozone). The model we were shown was the household size that was fitted into water mains at the entrances to houses. The unit cost was $16,000 at the exchange rate of 130 yen to 1 dollar, and before installation the user had to sign a contract to use no soaps, detergents, shampoos, conditioners or other chemical cleaners, only Sosei water. All existing detergents were boxed up, removed from the household and treated as toxic waste. THE FIRST STAGE OF THREE Here were the essential features of the treatment device. As Toshiharu Fukai explained, it was a simple device despite the high level insights that produced it. There were three chambers or columns. First the water came in and trickled up a column two or three inches in diameter and a couple feet long packed with an ion exchange resin, which looks like tiny, amber beads. Ion exchange resins are just what the name says,tiny resinous beads that remove ions from solution, replacing them with other ions. Such resins are commonly used in water treatment to take positively charged calcareous ions such as calcium, magnesium, strontium, barium, etc. out of water in exchange for sodium. To flush the column and restore it a concentrated salt solution is sent through the resin to drive off the calcarious deposits. We were told this resin was charged or recharged with rock salt. Here I am a BD farmer, presented with a step that removes the lime from the water. Right away I took interest, only to find the next step involved silica and the final step involved clay. Since biodynamic farmers think of the polarities of lime and silica with clay as the middle ground imagine my interest! Certainly this water process deserved a good look. Not many people seem to have heard of Dr. Carey Reams' theory of biological ionization. Reams was a self-employed biochemist that 20 some years ago lived about 30 miles away from me near Blue Ridge, Georgia. He taught agricultural classes right up until he died, but he'd also done extensive research into the biochemistry of aging and disease. Dr. Reams found that as people aged they built up a cationic overload. (This is even true of the Earth. Back in its youth there was not so much lime, but as lime was acquired from Solar fusion and solar flares and deposited as sedimentary layers on the Earth cations have built up.) He tested foods to see which ones might aleviate it. The only anionic food in hundreds and hundreds tested turned out to be fresh squeezed lemon juice. Since water commonly had a wide variety of cations in it the only water he found that was essentially cation free was distilled water. So for a while he operated a clinic that supervised fasting on distilled water with a little fresh squeezed lemon juice in it. This went a long ways towards health and the arrest of aging with many people. Reams was not just someone whose theories I'd merely heard about, he was someone I knew and I'd known some of the people who took his fasting cure. As well I had a lifetime association with a father who fasted rather commonly on water, sometimes with fresh lemon. Most folks know very little about the power of fasting. While in prison I myself fasted ten days to get over pneumonia on one occasion and again fasted for ten days because of internal bleeding from a stomach ulcer when no other medical assistance was forthcoming. Of course on neither occasion did I have distilled water and fresh lemon, so I hadn't experienced a fast with anionic water. But at least I could see there was good reason to believe there was something to Ream's theory. However, passing water straight from the city water mains through a cation exchange resin would hardly render the water anionic since the ion exchange resin simply substitutes sodium ions for the various other cations in solution. THE NEXT STEP Of course, there was more than one step to this water treatment process. Mr. Fukai indicated that in his observation of waters of quality, such as mountain springs of renown, he observed that water of highest quality occured where the water flowed through obsidian--volcanic glass. Nakata-san showed us the inner contents of a second chamber. He pulled a filter sock out of a treatment unit which had been in use. Inside were irregular chunks of obsidian about the size of ping pong balls. This was interesting. Although the obsidian was wet and gleaming, it did not gleam with the shiny glass brightness of freshly broken obsidian. Rather it had a dull, matte finish that suggested etching. I thought the slight concentration of cationic sodium ions very likely reacted with the obsidian, forming sodium silicates, one of the most soluble salts of silica. Since silica acts as an anion the result might be slightly anionic water. However, from what I know of chemistry--which is a fair bit--it looked to me like any such effects would be slight and would hardly explain the detergent and healthful properties we were hearing about. Neither could I see how it could explain the effects I experienced from the bath. STEP THREE The third and final step in the water treatment process--and Mr. Fukai had apologized that it was so simple--was probably the most interesting of all. This column was made up of sections that screwed into one another. Each was a machined aluminum cylinder in which the water flowed upward through holes in the bottom, such as in a salt shaker. Each section was filled with a mixture of twists of anodized aluminum, a centimeter or slightly more wide and about 4 or 5 centimeters long, a little thicker than cardboard and twisted as if around a pencil. In between these twisted bands of anodized aluminum were pellets about BB size or a little larger which Mr. Fukai said were made from a mixture of clay and ground tourmaline, a gemstone quality aluminum mineral. Moreover, the inside bore of each section was rifled. That is it had a deep groove machined in a spiral up the bore, and the inside of this lip was curled rather like the curvature of a wave near the seashore as it just begins to curl from the crest. Callum Coats, who may well be the world's leading authority on the properties of living water as well as the means of creating it, was very intrigued by the rifling of the bore and the twists of anodized aluminum. I was equally intrigued by the pellets of clay and ground tourmaline. As a biodynamic farmer I'm aware that all life processes take place between the opposite polarities of lime and silica. Clay, whose basis is aluminum, lies in between these polarities and acts as a sink for life forces. Many folks are aware that food wrapped in aluminum foil rapidly becomes depleted of life forces. However in the soil, with it's covering of organic matter, the aluminum in clay acts as a life energy reservoir, attracting and building up life energy. Biodynamics also places considerable emphasis on form and formative forces, and tourmaline is one of the most highly formed--gemstone quality--aluminum minerals. Between the rifling of the bore and the spiral and bead filler, guaranteed to create maximum form in water flow, and the overall action of the alumina materials this final column conceivably could charge the water passing through with considerable life force. Throughout the natural world where ever we encounter life force there is oxygen. There is oxygen in lime, oxygen in silica and oxygen in clay. The two polar opposites of lime and silica and their middle ground of clay would not participate in the life processes without oxygen. Sosei Water was hyper oxygenated--to the point it was H3O2 instead of H2O. It was this final chamber, as far as I could determine from just looking, that must be incorporating the extra oxygen into the water, turning it into H2O plus OH- or H3O2 with an anionic charge. Very interesting. I looked forward to more detailed discussion with the inventor, Mr. Fukai, if ever opportunity presented. [After Toshiharu Fukai read this article he sent me the following information:] "You can, of course, release all the information you have to anybody. "I will give you some info you MIGHT NOT have here. "The aluminum (anodized) inside the cuylinders and the cylinder itself (aluminum) cause an electrxodeposition phenomenon and attract silica that can not be absorbed into the body. That is, silica as solute in water (silica from obsidian, ion exchange resins, and tap water) gets electrically attracted to aluminum (twists of anodized aluminum and aluminum cylinders). "This electradeposition occurs when tourmaline pellets collide with each other generating electricity of 4-14 millivolts, thus letting alumina curls and cylinders take that effect. "People may not believe it and some might even say that we are some kind of cult people, but the energy of running water in the aluminum cylinders absorbs, from outside the cylinders, cosmic energies and [sic] (vibrations) of thought, making the water "Sosei Water." That is why Sosei Water is called "vibration water" or "vibration transferred water." "So by incorporating some thought or even number into the cylinder, you can change the energy of the Sosei Water. On the surface of some alumina twists (bands) is embossed a number or a name of some disease. "There is a mysterious phenomenon we have here. Silica does not stick to those alumina bands with a number or a disease name embossed, but it does to those without a number or a disease name. "I think it is a wonderful world." Coming, Part II: A TOUR OF WATER INSTALLATIONS For now, list folks, that's all. Thanks for waiting so patiently for this information. Please stay tuned as this is probably not the only little gem of information I'll have for you. I find that as I teach my apprentice course a very interesting variety of things pop out. For instance, I was explaining occult chemistry to my students the other morning and I was talking about how magnesium was more grasping even than calcium, as wittness the fact that it grabs on to light while calcium only reflects it. Then I was talking about how silica was the carrier of cosmic forces, but carbon, its younger cousin, was able to express the great universal imaginations, from the void, in manifest form and how carbon in its crystaline form is diamond, the hardest substance on earth and thus also the best carrier of life ether. What I said was, "Carbon is to silica as magnesium is to calcium." Well it certainly is, but, you know, up till the moment I said it the thought hadn't occurred to me. It just popped out. This has me thinking about aluminum's relationship to boron and why boron is so important in calcium uptake by plants. It's something I want to think about, but anyway, stay tuned. Best regards, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu May 27 23:13:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA01129 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 23:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA07731; Thu, 27 May 1999 23:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07563 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 22:59:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.131.22] (max1-22.stc.net [208.210.131.22]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA24325 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 22:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:01:02 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Plan(e)ts Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1011 Whoops! Thought I'd mailed this, but I hadn't. Hugh Rex wrote: >If you get a chance, would you reconcile your remark that calcium holds things >together vis-a-vis eco-ag's tenent that calcium tends to fluff the soil (as >opposed to magnesium which sticks it together)? > >Thanks, >Rex Harrill Dear Rex, Thanks for this opportunity to expound. Really I should have mentioned lime, rather than calcium, since lime relates very strongly to both calcium and magnesium. Very truly calcium sulfate is well-known for leavening, lightening, loosening our clay soils here in the southeast. It is called "land plaster" (with a wonderful southern drawl accent) and is applied "to make the peanuts peg." Really it is a fertilizer since both the calcium and the sulfur are just the thing for peanuts. But because the fertilizer institute has lobbied in every state for "quality fertilizer laws" (meaning minimum 15% soluble nutrients) it is unlawful to call calcium sulfate a fertilizer when its nutrients are insoluble though highly available to plants like peanuts. Really, calcium sulfate is also the basis for plaster, plaster of Paris, gypsum wallboard and so forth. It's pretty glue-like when not incorporated at low dosages with soil. And limestone is the basis of cement, mortar mix, many glues, etc. So maybe you can see where I'm coming from. However, you're quite right that magnesium--which is a significant component of dolomitic limestone, the harder limestone--hardens the soil and makes it tight while calcium and calcitic limestone tend to loosen up the soil. There's an important piece of this puzzle that comes straight out of Louis Kervran's research with biological transmutation. Oxygen is the carrier of life. Magnesium is calcium without the oxygen. As far as biological nuclear reactions go magnesium 24 plus oxygen 16 transmutes into calcium 40. This explains the fact that soils in the midwest commonly test much higher in magnesium and lower in calcium in the winter when they are water logged and oxygen deficient than they do in summer when they have dried out and taken in a lot of oxygen from the air. Many soil laboratories have assumed there were "masking factors" that concealed the true calcium or magnesium content of these soils when tested at different times. However, biological transmutation is a much clearer and better explanation. One of the principles of biodynamics is that sulfur is the element with which the spirit enters into interaction with substance. So with calcium sulfate we have a combination where the earthly, gravitational, grasping, glue-like calcium has sulfur and oxygen in superlative combination so that spirit and life force enter into this earthly element. It's a great soil amendment (which we dare not call a fertilizer because of the fertilizer laws.) It isn't the calcium which fluffs up the soil. It is the the life that does it. When one can bring the calcium (really the LIME the calcium and magnesium) in the soil to life, you can really open up the soil. But this isn't dependent only on the calcium, but rather it depends on the way calcium is brought together with such things as sulfur and oxygen. By the way, magnesium sulfate (epsom salts) is also used as a soil ammendment in places where the calcium/magnesium balance is off toward the calcium side. I have used it on my farm back when I kept showing soil test of magnesium deficiency and calcium excess, and I didn't know why. I discovered why. The reason was that with my application of BD 500 with Hieronymus's Cosmic Pipe I was overbalancing the environment toward the downward working forces. Magnesium works downward (along with copper and boron) much more strongly than calcium. In other words it is more condensive and gravitational then calcium, which is just what you are saying. So the calcium was staying in soil testing range, but the magnesium was going below that. I couldn't understand that until I realized I had too much downward forces and not enough upward ones. Once I corrected the cosmic pipe design so the forces were balanced the magnesium soil test came up without me applying any magnesium. But from this we can see how magnesium (chlorophyll) has more power than calcium to grab onto light and capture it's energies, transmitting them through phosphorus into carbon chemistry. In a certain sense, magnesium is more short of oxygen, more short of life, more grasping than calcium. Hopefully this provides more perspective as I've long found it impossible to capture more than a fraction of my thought on these things in prose. I've been advised (by my father, an accomplished poet) that poetry better and more easily expresses thought, but I'm trying to express technical things that I find difficult to put into poetic device. Perhaps I will still find a way, but don't hold your breath. See what you readers can make of this, please. Rex has touched on an issue that deserves further inquiry and much more understanding. Sincerely, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 28 06:17:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA04772 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 06:17:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA23390; Fri, 28 May 1999 06:05:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand4.global.net.uk (sand4.global.net.uk [194.126.80.248]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA23275 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 06:02:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p58s03a01.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.131.89] helo=raithby.globalnet.co.uk) by sand4.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10nJTJ-0001Ia-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 28 May 1999 11:02:38 +0100 Message-ID: <374E68A9.65B0C92A@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:58:02 +0100 From: ALISON EADES X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNow Subject: Eclipse in the UK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1012 Dear British Bders I seem to remember there being a couple of events related to BD and the solar eclipse in August, going on in the south west. Does anyone have any details? I am also trying to get hold of someone at the BDAA but sometimes its hard to get through. Many thanks Alison From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 28 06:17:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA04780 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 06:17:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA23336; Fri, 28 May 1999 06:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA23238 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 06:01:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.35] (pm3shep1-163-35.intrepid.net [209.190.163.35]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA15430 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 06:01:29 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 06:01:52 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Sosei Water conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1013 Thanks for making the time to post this, Hugh! (Thanks again!) Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA moderator, BIODYNAMICS Now! Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 28 09:10:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06598 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 09:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00559; Fri, 28 May 1999 08:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cask.force9.net (cask.force9.net [195.166.128.29]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00415 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 08:53:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199905281253.IAA00415@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 23487 invoked from network); 28 May 1999 12:52:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO coors.free-online.net) (212.56.108.80) by cask.force9.net with SMTP; 28 May 1999 12:52:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 14033 invoked from network); 28 May 1999 12:49:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?212.56.113.151?) (212.56.113.151) by coors.free-online.net with SMTP; 28 May 1999 12:49:00 -0000 Subject: Re: Eclipse in the UK Date: Fri, 28 May 99 13:54:40 +0100 x-sender: elementalsols@mail.free-online.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Mark Moodie To: "BD list Postings" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1014 ALISON EADES wrote;- >Dear British Bders > >I seem to remember there being a couple of events related to BD and the >solar eclipse in August, going on in the south west. Does anyone have >any details? I am also trying to get hold of someone at the BDAA but >sometimes its hard to get through. > >Many thanks > >Alison Robert Powell was giving a talk at Ruskin Mil on Wednesday about the stars this year. Unfortunately brighter stars were on TV at the local pub beating Beyern Munich in extra time - astrosophy eclipsed! Look in New View, I think he's giving some more talks about now. Mark Moodie mark.es@aecb.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 28 09:51:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07375 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 09:51:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03969; Fri, 28 May 1999 09:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03724 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 09:38:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d146.infoserve.net [199.175.157.146]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA14034 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 06:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002b01bea90f$bec5f300$929dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Eclipse in the UK Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 06:36:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1015 Aug. 11 -----Original Message----- From: ALISON EADES To: BDNow Date: Friday, May 28, 1999 3:08 AM Subject: Eclipse in the UK >Dear British Bders > >I seem to remember there being a couple of events related to BD and the >solar eclipse in August, going on in the south west. Does anyone have >any details? I am also trying to get hold of someone at the BDAA but >sometimes its hard to get through. > >Many thanks > >Alison > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 28 10:12:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08322 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 10:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05687; Fri, 28 May 1999 10:00:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05547 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 09:59:47 -0400 (EDT) From: JHatf18942@aol.com Received: from JHatf18942@aol.com (8067) by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id hYLHa08612 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 09:59:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:59:10 EDT Subject: Re: Sosei Water conference To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 86 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1016 Hi Hugh, Just wanted to express my thanks as well. The recent posts have been excellent. Thanks. Jeff Hatfield From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 28 12:01:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10778 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 12:01:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14202; Fri, 28 May 1999 11:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand.global.net.uk (sand.global.net.uk [194.126.82.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14025 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 11:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p61s10a01.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.138.98] helo=raithby.globalnet.co.uk) by sand.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 10nOsc-0003t7-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 28 May 1999 16:49:07 +0100 Message-ID: <374EA3F6.81559AC6@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:11:02 +0100 From: ALISON EADES X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Eclipse in the UK References: <199905281253.IAA00415@envirolink.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1017 Thanks Mark I'll have a look. Alison Mark Moodie wrote: > ALISON EADES wrote;- > > >Dear British Bders > > > >I seem to remember there being a couple of events related to BD and the > >solar eclipse in August, going on in the south west. Does anyone have > >any details? I am also trying to get hold of someone at the BDAA but > >sometimes its hard to get through. > > > >Many thanks > > > >Alison > > Robert Powell was giving a talk at Ruskin Mil on Wednesday about the > stars this year. Unfortunately brighter stars were on TV at the local pub > beating Beyern Munich in extra time - astrosophy eclipsed! Look in New > View, I think he's giving some more talks about now. > > Mark Moodie > mark.es@aecb.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 28 20:05:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA18734 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 20:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA20414; Fri, 28 May 1999 19:51:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.mntm.org (ns.mntm.org [209.18.254.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA20343 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 19:50:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rrc2.rrcnet.org (rrc2.rrcnet.org [209.18.245.2]) by ns.mntm.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA19058 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 18:50:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from anp42.rrcnet.org by rrc2.rrcnet.org; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/11Jul96-0511PM) id AA31108; Fri, 28 May 1999 18:48:51 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:56:32 -0600 To: BDNOW@envirolink.org From: anderson@rrcnet.org (bruce and barb anderson) Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1018 THANK YOU FOR THE INFORMATION...BUT FOR NOW I'LL UNSUBSCRIBE.......BRUCE From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 28 21:57:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA20476 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 21:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24118; Fri, 28 May 1999 21:45:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ctc.swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA23317 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 21:43:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (ctca143.vthokies.net [206.153.172.143] (may be forged)) by ctc.swva.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id VAA31856 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 21:42:58 -0400 Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 21:42:58 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990528214729.0ad74a0e@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: Sosei Water conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1019 Thanks for your detailed, interesting report on the conference, and your reflections on chemistry. Malcolm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri May 28 23:17:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA21193 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 23:17:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA19117; Fri, 28 May 1999 23:05:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from penguin.reach.net ([204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18585 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 23:04:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.50.58.55] (A24.reach.net [204.50.58.55]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA23402 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 23:04:00 -0400 Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:04:00 -0400 X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: OFF: Those damn grids in the air... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1020 Sorry to lower the tone, especially after Hugh's masterful post on the Sosei phenom...but tonight I finally noticed a very unusual trail grid in the sky tonight. Not disipating like normal vapour trails. The nearly full moon made it jump out. Now, we're 10 miles from one of Canada's major military airfields, and they're doing a lot of flights to and from the Adriatic right now. But these were not related to that. The flight intersects were so weird for the usual flight paths. I seem to remember a few posts on this earlier this year. If I recall correctly, wasn't the consenus that this was some sort of cloud seeding? This area is right on the edge of sustained, deep drought. Could that be what is going on, but nobody bothered to tell us? Curious...any help appreciated, Geoff Heinricks Prince Edward Co. Ontario From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 29 03:39:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA23377 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 03:39:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA13821; Sat, 29 May 1999 03:27:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA12732 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 03:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.181.86] ("port 2048"@[148.233.181.97]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FCH00JEMHVFAG@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 29 May 1999 01:52:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 01:59:20 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: OFF Re: Sosei Water conference In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id DAA12739 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1021 Dear Hugh: Thank so much for your posting. As I was reading it, somehow I thought about the minerals and it's relationship with the planets in the Jyotish tradition. The vedic sciences has given me many answers to the obscured relationships and "knowledge" that we have in our modern times,that I am sure you will be able to put the following ancient associations in good terms with the BD and the occult chemical knowledge you alredy have. In Jyotish (vedic astrology) and as a remedial therapy, the "weakness" associated with a given astro are strenghten throught the use of specific gems, it is believed that such a gem will bring about and reinforce the effects of the related planet in the person wearing them and with such "astrological weakness" in their birth charts. The main assocs are: ASTRO GEM CHEM MOUNTED ON Sun Ruby Al2O3 Gold Moon Pearl CaCO3 Silver Mars Red Coral CaCO3 silver or gold-copper Mercury Emerald Be3Al2(SiO3)6 Gold Jupiter Yellow Sapphire Al2O3 Gold Venus Diamond pure C White Gold Saturn Blue Sapphire Al2O3 Gold It is funny, for starters, to notice that the elements which consitute the gems are Ca, Si, C, Al, and O, isn't ? In BD terms the Si related substances carry the effects of Saturn, Jupiter and Mars, while the effects of Moon, Venus and Mercury are carried by calcareous substances. This relationships do not match perfectly the above elements, but probably some mediating effects can be drawn with the exeptions. If you have time to dig some relationships or speculations between this vedic concepts and what you know, please share them, it will be fun and I am sure that enlightening as well. Best Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 29 08:19:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA24564 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 08:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA20988; Sat, 29 May 1999 08:07:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20889 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 08:05:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp200.cy-net.net [208.21.195.9]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA04770 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 07:05:25 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEA9A1.B7D263C0@FLYLO>; Sat, 29 May 1999 07:06:05 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEA9A1.B7D263C0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Those damn grids in the air... Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 06:54:14 -0500 Encoding: 5 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1022 There was about a week's worth of messages on the topic, people getting sick, in relation to the overseeding. I probably saved some/all of them, if anyone didn't and can't locate it in archives I can dig for them. martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 29 10:43:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25818 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 10:43:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24796; Sat, 29 May 1999 10:29:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24729 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 10:27:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp15.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.115]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA22975 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 09:24:58 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <002601bea9df$494348a0$734b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: Subject: Equisetum blooming Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 09:26:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1023 Hi All, I'm finding that the equisetum is in bloom (REALLY tiny little yellow flowers) Is this stage of growth of particular use or significance? Thanks... Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 29 11:04:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26005 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28900; Sat, 29 May 1999 10:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28375 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 10:50:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [158.252.217.38] (sdn-ar-013casfraP036.dialsprint.net [158.252.217.38]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22449 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 07:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905291450.HAA22449@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 07:52:55 -0700 Subject: Re: UNSUBSCRIBE From: "Robert Coulombe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1024 I don't know what you are talking about. We have nothing to unsubscribe from. Bob ---------- >From: anderson@rrcnet.org (bruce and barb anderson) >To: BDNOW@envirolink.org >Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE >Date: Fri, May 28, 1999, 5:56 PM > > THANK YOU FOR THE INFORMATION...BUT FOR NOW I'LL UNSUBSCRIBE.......BRUCE > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 29 11:14:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26098 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29684; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:03:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29514 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:00:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 209.143.11.15 (hils-ras1-1-cs-12.dial.bright.net [209.143.11.15]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id LAA25047 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:01:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37500E0D.421E@bright.net> Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:55:57 -0500 From: Marilyn Hiestand Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: INTERN in HAWAII References: <4.1.19990525084945.009409d0@pop-server> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1025 I am coming to Hawaii in October and wonder if it would be possible to visit with you. I am a substance abuse counselor and am developing a CSA using biodynamic principles. Marilyn From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 29 11:21:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26147 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00018; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.mntm.org (ns.mntm.org [209.18.254.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29831 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:07:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rrc2.rrcnet.org (rrc2.rrcnet.org [209.18.245.2]) by ns.mntm.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA31810 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 10:07:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from anp33.rrcnet.org by rrc2.rrcnet.org; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/11Jul96-0511PM) id AB02839; Sat, 29 May 1999 10:06:09 -0500 X-Sender: anderson@rrcnet.org (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:13:52 -0600 To: From: anderson@rrcnet.org (bruce and barb anderson) Subject: unsubcsribe Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1026 Thank you for the information, but for now I'll unsubscribe......Bruce From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 29 11:30:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26234 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00471; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:19:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00347 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.18] (pm3shep1-163-18.intrepid.net [209.190.163.18]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01274 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:18:10 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 11:19:57 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: USDA GE Hearings Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1027 Allan: This may be of interest to the BD-Now list: (from John Spencer) >Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:02:03 EDT >From: Sprinkraft@aol.com >To: Ban-GEF@lists.greenbuilder.com >X-Processed-By: HSKT 1.0 by Joshua Baer >Subject: B-GE: The Winter Haven Project > >The first USDA hearing GE foods and farming is coming up next Friday. I >haven't been hearing a lot about these meetings, and I think its probably >very important to get folks to attend them, either to voice their feelings >and opinions or to become educated. I started doing some searches for Winter >Haven Florida and found a few free lists to post on and the newsmedia >contacts in Tampa Bay. I sent them some mail. I am going to look for more >contacts, and dredge up my Florida contacts and see if I can help get people >to WInter Haven from afar. > >Here is some of what I posted ( they were live email boxes so I had to work >from scratch)....titled USDA Hearings on Genetically Engineered Food > >This is a blind post I am sending into the Tampa-Winter Haven area as a >special alert to the environmental community. Perhaps the newsmedia are >interested in this as well. I am. I write for a national agricultural >journal. You may have heard about the Monarch butterfly incident involving >genetically engineered corn ( Cornell University, May 18) and you may have >heard that Prince Charles doesn't much care for GE agriculture. There is more >to it than that. Finally, the USDA and the EPA are willing to listen, at 12 >sites and Florida's Tampa Bay-Winter Haven area is one. In Austria and >Greece, these food products are beginning to be banned. In the UK, the >biggest retailers and food manufacturers ( ever heard of Unilever? Nestle?) >are steering clear of it. > >Hello. I am writing from Iowa. I am an organic farming activist, and have >been working on the genetic engineering issue in agriculture for a few years. >On JUNE 4 - in Winter Haven, Florida (Nora Mayo Hall) the USDA is going to >hold a public hearing that you should attend, either to become educated or to >make your feelings known about this new technology.CONTACT: Will Bussey >(850) 488-3022, locally about this meeting. Please repy via email to me for >more information.Thanks. The planet you save may be your own. > >*************************************************************************** *** >********* > >Who do you know in Florida? >Are you in Florida? >Are you going to any of the other hearings? >I am going to three of them. >I am also going to the EPA Bt refuge hearing in Chicago on June 18. >Are you in Illinois, Indiana, Michigan or Wisconsin? >Can you go to a hearing and take people with you? >Can you contact the newsmedia, you local co-op, natural food store, Sierra >Club, Greenpeace, Clean Water Action, Audubon, Consumers Union offices in >your area and build some momentum? > >These meetings are upon us now. > >Steve Sprinkel >Fairfield > >---- >For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the Ban-GEF list, send email to Ban-GEF@lists.txinfinet.com with HELP in the SUBJECT line. >---- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 29 11:33:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26274 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:33:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00656; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:22:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ctc.swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00518 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:20:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (ctca131.vthokies.net [206.153.172.131] (may be forged)) by ctc.swva.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA28432 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:20:13 -0400 Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 11:20:13 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990529112445.24c7821e@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: Equisetum blooming Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1028 Hi Julie, Please provide a few more details about what you observed. Equisetum is not a flowering plant; it produces minute spores (like a fern) from little cones with hexagonal plates at the tip of its main stem (in the case of E. arvense, these stems are _brown_). As far as I recall, the spores are brown. Perhaps you are looking at golden club (Orontium aquaticum) or marestail (Hippuris sp.) or a spikerush (Eleocharis sp.)?? The first of these has definite yellow flowers; the others have flowers, but only the pollen is yellow. None of them, however, have hollow jointed stems like Equisetum. Sincerely, Malcolm At 09:26 AM 5/29/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi All, > >I'm finding that the equisetum is in bloom (REALLY tiny little yellow >flowers) Is this stage of growth of particular use or significance? >Thanks... > >Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 29 13:03:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26998 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 13:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06827; Sat, 29 May 1999 12:52:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06732 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 12:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp52.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.152]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA08785 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:47:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <000b01bea9f3$2259a540$984b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: <1.5.4.16.19990529112445.24c7821e@swva.net> Subject: Re: Equisetum blooming Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 11:48:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1029 Hi Malcolm, Some little voice inside was saying this might be strange...but the stem & "leaves", spikey sorts are like equisetum (and yeah, now I'm thinking of the funny dark head that is on the real equisetum is very different - and is growing in another place on the farm - this particular specimen was presented to me by a 3yr. old, not sure where it came from!). I can scan the plant I've got here & perhaps you can ID for me? And thanks for the quick answer, who knows what I'dve done to the garden using THIS plant!:-) (Not like we are needing any fungus therapy right now...we seem to have entered a dry spell after a very wet period! The grasses are heading out & its time to make hay! Love Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: malcolm ian gardner To: Sent: Saturday, May 29, 1999 10:20 AM Subject: Re: Equisetum blooming > Hi Julie, > > Please provide a few more details about what you observed. Equisetum is not > a flowering plant; it produces minute spores (like a fern) from little cones > with hexagonal plates at the tip of its main stem (in the case of E. > arvense, these stems are _brown_). As far as I recall, the spores are brown. > Perhaps you are looking at golden club (Orontium aquaticum) or > marestail (Hippuris sp.) or a spikerush (Eleocharis sp.)?? The first of > these has definite yellow flowers; the others have flowers, but only the > pollen is yellow. None of them, however, have hollow jointed stems like > Equisetum. > > Sincerely, > Malcolm > > > At 09:26 AM 5/29/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi All, > > > >I'm finding that the equisetum is in bloom (REALLY tiny little yellow > >flowers) Is this stage of growth of particular use or significance? > >Thanks... > > > >Julie > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 29 15:12:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA28171 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 15:12:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11609; Sat, 29 May 1999 15:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ctc.swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08961 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 13:54:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (ctca145.vthokies.net [206.153.172.145] (may be forged)) by ctc.swva.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id NAA04344 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 13:54:48 -0400 Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 13:54:48 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990529135925.24c7df8a@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: Equisetum blooming Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1030 At 11:48 AM 5/29/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Malcolm, > >Some little voice inside was saying this might be strange...but the stem & >"leaves", spikey sorts are like equisetum (and yeah, now I'm thinking of the >funny dark head that is on the real equisetum is very different - and is >growing in another place on the farm - this particular specimen was >presented to me by a 3yr. old, not sure where it came from!). I can scan the >plant I've got here & perhaps you can ID for me? I'd prefer if you just told me the kind of habitat the plant did come from and exactly what you have in front of you. Or even better, have the 3-year old take you to the spot and see if you can figure out what the _whole_ plant looks like (not just the flowering spike). Malcolm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 29 21:41:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA01137 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 21:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25468; Sat, 29 May 1999 21:30:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA25315 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 21:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.37] (max19-38.stc.net [208.210.143.37]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA21122 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 21:28:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 21:30:50 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF Re: Sosei Water conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1031 Guillermo writes: >The main assocs are: > >ASTRO GEM CHEM MOUNTED ON > >Sun Ruby Al2O3 Gold >Moon Pearl CaCO3 Silver >Mars Red Coral CaCO3 silver or gold-copper >Mercury Emerald Be3Al2(SiO3)6 Gold >Jupiter Yellow Sapphire Al2O3 Gold >Venus Diamond pure C White Gold >Saturn Blue Sapphire Al2O3 Gold > > >It is funny, for starters, to notice that the elements which consitute the >gems are Ca, Si, C, Al, and O, isn't ? > >In BD terms the Si related substances carry the effects of Saturn, Jupiter >and Mars, while the effects of Moon, Venus and Mercury are carried by >calcareous substances. This relationships do not match perfectly the >above elements, but probably some mediating effects can be drawn with the >exeptions. > >If you have time to dig some relationships or speculations between this >vedic concepts and what you know, please share them, it will be fun and I >am sure that enlightening as well. > >Best Dear Guillermo, I'll have to give this some thought. As you say the relationships don't match exactly, and it would be interesting to understand why. I'm sure there are reasons. So often the modern thinks the ancient didn't know what they were talking about, when all too often the reverse is true. Best, Hugh Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat May 29 23:31:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA01975 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 23:31:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA29229; Sat, 29 May 1999 23:17:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA29147 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 23:15:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.139.2] (max17-2.stc.net [208.210.139.2]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA02539 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 23:15:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: uai@stc.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 23:16:30 -0400 To: subscribe-bdnow-hugh-lovel From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Sosei reposting with a few corrections Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id XAA29149 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1032 Though I posted this a couple days ago a few corrections have come to light. Though they are minor, I'd appreciate it if you dumped the first posting and saved this second one. Hugh Here is the first of two parts describing my visit to Japan as a participant in the Sosei Water conference and the water discoveries I learned about there. I wrote this in March but it has taken this long for it to be translated and for Mr. Fukai to read it. I wanted him to read it before I passed it on to the list. Now he has indicated his generous permission for me to share it with anyone. Hugh Lovel Dear List Readers, I promised a report on my visit to Japan the week of Thanksgiving this past year (1998). But I've been on the road and had a lot of catching up to do whenever I've been home. Now, at last, here's the story. I was invited to Japan to speak at the first SoSei Water Stewardship Conference just after Thanksgiving at Nagano prefecture, the district of the Olympic Games, in Ueda City. This conference was conjoined with the Fourth SoSei Users Conference in a huge traditional style Japanese Hotel with tatamis, futons, and steamy Japanese bath--the cleanest and most wholesome hotel of all we stayed in. Fellow speakers included: Patrick Horsbrugh of South Bend, Indiana, founder of the Environic Foundation International; Richard Pinkham of Snowmass, Colorado, senior research associate for the Rocky Mountain Institute; Brad Cummings of Ontario Canada head of the Pollution Prevention and Mining Toxics Prevention Division Ontario Region of the EPA Canada; Professor Doktor Karl Reuß of Suderburg, Germany, Director of Poste Graduate Study Programme/Waste Management; Lim Chong Keat of Penang, Malaysia, archetect, urban planner and long time student/friend of Buckminster Fuller; Simon Reeves of Aukland, New Zealand, (environmental) Barrister and Solicitor; Callum Coats of Australia, the Schauberger water expert who we've heard so much about on this list, and Errol Samuel of Australia, an environmental consultant involved in design and engineering of environmental construction for the Sidney Olympic Games. Missing and in an anthroposophic hospital in Switzerland was Jennifer Green of Maine (USA), one of the world's leading authorities on water quality. Though she could not come she sent us a rousing, prayerful, written address and a very interesting video presentation demonstrating the Schwenk water quality (drop) testing method. Until you've experienced Japanese hospitality it is unlikely you could conceive of it. The first outward signs are the "arigato gozaimasu" and little bow as you are greeted, but it goes a lot deeper. Imagine first getting there by plane from Atlanta (16 hours over northern Alaska and down the Kamchatka Peninsula into Narita Airport) then the airport express train and a switch to the Shinkansen (bullet train) for travel (the fastest I've ever gone on land) over the mountains to Nagano to SoSei Headquarters. Up until this point, no one in Japan was rude, but they didn't know us. Callum Coats and I were met at the airport by American and Finnish interpreters and escorted to Nagano. Once at company headquarters, "Arigato gozaimasu! Arigato! Arigato! down the line with grinning handshakes. Soon we were on the way in a company van to President Fukai's house where we got to bathe in very warm Sosei Water in a deep tub with absolutely no soaps, detergents or shampoos. Those of us waiting our turn sat on cushions around a low table talking via interpreters with President Fukai and each other and feasting on a beautiful assortment of rice, sushi and sushimi out of sophisticated individual take-out containers. The beverage? Sosei water. I figured out my chop sticks (first I had to pull them apart kind of like pulling on a turkey wishbone). I'm 51 years old and have on a few occasions used chop sticks, but I had to really concentrate on it. Those little mouthfuls of nori, rice and bits of vegetables or raw fish (sushi), to say nothing of the bites of raw tuna or squid (sushimi), seemed to taste really good. There's something about Japanese food that seems very clean to me, though the idea of eating all that raw fish doesn't appeal to me outside that setting. Then it was my turn for the bath. I really needed it. I'd had a long trip by air and another whole trip by rail, and I was tired. Plus I'd had a painful crick in my back near my left shoulder blade ever since the day after my workshop with Peter Proctor at Fair Oaks, California. It was, if anything, brought to the fore by the "comfort" of a 16 hour Delta Air ride, and the other demands of travel such as wakefulness and much carrying of heavy luggage. I sank under the warm water. I was one of the last to bathe, and, no soaps or shampoos? It was the same bath water everyone before me had bathed in. How clean was I going to get in that? Nearly all the others were distance travelers like me. Nevertheless it looked clean and I soaked in it a bit and rubbed myself down from head to toe, immersing my head, scrubbing my hair and everything. I could have soaked all night joyfully. But there were still one or two people waiting, so I climbed out, toweled down and dressed. Back at the low table with all the cushions it suddenly dawned on me that I not only felt very clean and refreshed, but that pesky crick in my back was gone! Very interesting. Yoshitomo Nakata san was showing off Sosei water by scrubbing the grease off the back of the stove and the wall behind it with nothing more than a scrubbing pad and Sosei water. It seemed to work more or less like "Purple Power" but without the chemical stench or anything. This was the same water we were drinking. Very interesting. We were given large bottles of Sosei Water for drinking and taken to a very nice motel for the night. By early morning I was down to breakfast, having drunk an enormous amount of bottled Sosei water during the night. It was pretty good. Pretty good. We were whisked to company headquarters by van after breakfast and given a leisurly tour--it was get acquainted time. I think everyone understood that most of us had traveled great distances. Lunch was a party, and President Fukai gave away some little Japanese jackets with a sash--I don't know what they are called. Very nice though. And always we were encouraged to drink Sosei water. Pretty good water, more envigorating perhaps, though not sweeter than comes from my spring on the farm. President Fukai addressed us and said he would show us all about the Sosei water treatment process. He asked please not to laugh because the process was really very simple. Born June 13, 1947 and growing up after the war, his father was in livestock and dairy (seeing one of my pictures of me milking a cow he showed me he'd mastered the art too) and he was in hotels and restaurants. About ten years back his father got cancer and died, and this made him take life more seriously. So he immersed himself in a study of Budhism and meditation. In the process he received the insights leading to development of the Sosei Water treatment process, which produced H3O2- or anionic water--pure water but water enriched by mono-valent OH- ions. This meant that even though it was so mild in its action that you could drink it, nonetheless it was so powerful a solvent and so effective at freeing up cations that it could take the place of soaps, shampoos, detergents of all kinds, even dry cleaning fluids such as perchlorethylene (aka Perc = the cleaning solvent most used in dry cleaning, a serious chlorofluorohydrocarbon [CFC] threatening polar ozone). The model we were shown was the household size that was fitted into water mains at the entrances to houses. The unit cost was $16,000 at the exchange rate of 130 yen to 1 dollar, and before installation the user had to sign a contract to use no soaps, detergents, shampoos, conditioners or other chemical cleaners, only Sosei water. All existing detergents were boxed up, removed from the household and treated as toxic waste. THE FIRST STAGE OF THREE Here were the essential features of the treatment device. As Toshiharu Fukai explained, it was a simple device despite the high level insights that produced it. There were three chambers or columns. First the water came in and trickled up a column two or three inches in diameter and a couple feet long packed with an ion exchange resin, which looks like tiny, amber beads. Ion exchange resins are just what the name says,tiny resinous beads that remove ions from solution, replacing them with other ions. Such resins are commonly used in water treatment to take positively charged calcareous ions such as calcium, magnesium, strontium, barium, etc. out of water in exchange for sodium. To flush the column and restore it a concentrated salt solution is sent through the resin to drive off the calcarious deposits. We were told this resin was charged or recharged with rock salt. Here I am a BD farmer, presented with a step that removes the lime from the water. Right away I took interest, only to find the next step involved silica and the final step involved clay. Since biodynamic farmers think of the polarities of lime and silica with clay as the middle ground imagine my interest! Certainly this water process deserved a good look. Not many people seem to have heard of Dr. Carey Reams' theory of biological ionization. Reams was a self-employed biochemist that 20 some years ago lived about 30 miles away from me near Blue Ridge, Georgia. He taught agricultural classes right up until he died, but he'd also done extensive research into the biochemistry of aging and disease. Dr. Reams found that as people aged they built up a cationic overload. (This is even true of the Earth. Back in its youth there was not so much lime, but as lime was acquired from Solar fusion and solar flares and deposited as sedimentary layers on the Earth cations have built up.) He tested foods to see which ones might aleviate it. The only anionic food in hundreds and hundreds tested turned out to be fresh squeezed lemon juice. Since water commonly had a wide variety of cations in it the only water he found that was essentially cation free was distilled water. So for a while he operated a clinic that supervised fasting on distilled water with a little fresh squeezed lemon juice in it. This went a long ways towards health and the arrest of aging with many people. Reams was not just someone whose theories I'd merely heard about, he was someone I knew and I'd known some of the people who took his fasting cure. As well I had a lifetime association with a father who fasted rather commonly on water, sometimes with fresh lemon. Most folks know very little about the power of fasting. While in prison I myself fasted ten days to get over pneumonia on one occasion and again fasted for ten days because of internal bleeding from a stomach ulcer when no other medical assistance was forthcoming. Of course on neither occasion did I have distilled water and fresh lemon, so I hadn't experienced a fast with anionic water. But at least I could see there was good reason to believe there was something to Ream's theory. However, passing water straight from the city water mains through a cation exchange resin would hardly render the water anionic since the ion exchange resin simply substitutes sodium ions for the various other cations in solution. THE NEXT STEP Of course, there was more than one step to this water treatment process. Mr. Fukai indicated that in his observation of waters of quality, such as mountain springs of renown, he observed that water of highest quality occured where the water flowed through obsidian--volcanic glass. Nakata-san showed us the inner contents of a second chamber. He pulled a filter sock out of a treatment unit which had been in use. Inside were irregular chunks of obsidian about the size of ping pong balls. This was interesting. Although the obsidian was wet and gleaming, it did not gleam with the shiny glass brightness of freshly broken obsidian. Rather it had a dull, matte finish that suggested etching. I thought the slight concentration of cationic sodium ions very likely reacted with the obsidian, forming sodium silicates, one of the most soluble salts of silica. Since silica acts as an anion the result might be slightly anionic water. However, from what I know of chemistry--which is a fair bit--it looked to me like any such effects would be slight and would hardly explain the detergent and healthful properties we were hearing about. Neither could I see how it could explain the effects I experienced from the bath. STEP THREE The third and final step in the water treatment process--and Mr. Fukai had apologized that it was so simple--was probably the most interesting of all. This column was made up of sections that screwed into one another. Each was a machined aluminum cylinder in which the water flowed upward through holes in the bottom, such as in a salt shaker. Each section was filled with a mixture of twists of anodized aluminum, a centimeter or slightly more wide and about 4 or 5 centimeters long, a little thicker than cardboard and twisted as if around a pencil. In between these twisted bands of anodized aluminum were pellets about BB size or a little larger which Mr. Fukai said were made from a mixture of clay and ground tourmaline, a gemstone quality aluminum mineral. Moreover, the inside bore of each section was rifled. That is it had a deep groove machined in a spiral up the bore, and the inside of this lip was curled rather like the curvature of a wave near the seashore as it just begins to curl from the crest. Callum Coats, who may well be the world's leading authority on the properties of living water as well as the means of creating it, was very intrigued by the rifling of the bore and the twists of anodized aluminum. I was equally intrigued by the pellets of clay and ground tourmaline. As a biodynamic farmer I'm aware that all life processes take place between the opposite polarities of lime and silica. Clay, whose basis is aluminum, lies in between these polarities and acts as a sink for life forces. Many folks are aware that food wrapped in aluminum foil rapidly becomes depleted of life forces. However in the soil, with it's covering of organic matter, the aluminum in clay acts as a life energy reservoir, attracting and building up life energy. Biodynamics also places considerable emphasis on form and formative forces, and tourmaline is one of the most highly formed--gemstone quality--aluminum minerals. Between the rifling of the bore and the spiral and bead filler, guaranteed to create maximum form in water flow, and the overall action of the alumina materials this final column conceivably could charge the water passing through with considerable life force. Throughout the natural world where ever we encounter life force there is oxygen. There is oxygen in lime, oxygen in silica and oxygen in clay. The two polar opposites of lime and silica and their middle ground of clay would not participate in the life processes without oxygen. Sosei Water was hyper oxygenated--to the point it was H3O2 instead of H2O. It was this final chamber, as far as I could determine from just looking, that must be incorporating the extra oxygen into the water, turning it into H2O plus OH- or H3O2 with an anionic charge. Very interesting. I looked forward to more detailed discussion with the inventor, Mr. Fukai, if ever opportunity presented. [After Toshiharu Fukai read this article he sent me the following information:] "You can, of course, release all the information you have to anybody. "I will give you some info you MIGHT NOT have here. "The aluminum (anodized) inside the cylinders and the cylinder itself (aluminum) cause an electrodeposition phenomenon and attract silica that can not be absorbed into the body. That is, silica as solute in water (silica from obsidian, ion exchange resins, and tap water) gets electrically attracted to aluminum (twists of anodized aluminum and aluminum cylinders). "This electrodeposition occurs when tourmaline pellets collide with each other generating electricity of 4-14 millivolts, thus letting alumina curls and cylinders take that effect. "People may not believe it and some might even say that we are some kind of cult people, but the energy of running water in the aluminum cylinders absorbs, from outside the cylinders, cosmic energies and [sic, an unreadable word] (vibrations) of thought, making the water "Sosei Water." That is why Sosei Water is called "vibration water" or "vibration transferred water." "So by incorporating some thought or even number into the cylinder, you can change the energy of the Sosei Water. On the surface of some alumina twists (bands) is embossed a number or a name of some disease. "There is a mysterious phenomenon we have here. Silica does not stick to those alumina bands with a number or a disease name embossed, but it does to those without a number or a disease name. "I think it is a wonderful world." --Toshiharu Fukai Coming, Part II: A TOUR OF WATER INSTALLATIONS For now, list folks, that's all. Thanks for waiting so patiently for this information. Please stay tuned as this is probably not the only little gem of information I'll have for you. I find that as I teach my apprentice course a very interesting variety of things pop out. For instance, I was explaining occult chemistry to my students the other morning and I was talking about how magnesium was more grasping even than calcium, as wittness the fact that it grabs on to light while calcium only reflects it. Then I was talking about how silica was the carrier of cosmic forces, but carbon, its younger cousin, was able to express the great universal imaginations, from the void, in manifest form and how carbon in its crystaline form is diamond, the hardest substance on earth and thus also the best carrier of life ether. What I said was, "Carbon is to silica as magnesium is to calcium." Well it certainly is, but, you know, up till the moment I said it the thought hadn't occurred to me. It just popped out. This has me thinking about aluminum's relationship to boron and why boron is so important in calcium uptake by plants. It's something I want to think about, but anyway, stay tuned. Best regards, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 30 01:16:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA02699 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 01:16:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA02753; Sun, 30 May 1999 01:04:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.mntm.org (ns.mntm.org [209.18.254.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA02710 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 01:03:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rrc2.rrcnet.org (rrc2.rrcnet.org [209.18.245.2]) by ns.mntm.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA28025 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 00:03:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from anp38.rrcnet.org by rrc2.rrcnet.org; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/11Jul96-0511PM) id AA23961; Sun, 30 May 1999 00:01:54 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 00:09:37 -0600 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: anderson@rrcnet.org (bruce and barb anderson) Subject: unsubscribe Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1033 Thank you for the info, but for now I will unsubscribe. Thank You Bruce From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 30 12:29:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA07372 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 12:29:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18857; Sun, 30 May 1999 12:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18771 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 12:17:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Lunarview@aol.com Received: from Lunarview@aol.com (3869) by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id hJVKa01068 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 12:16:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <15a1e14d.2482be64@aol.com> Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 12:16:36 EDT Subject: 3rd attempt To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1034 bdnow@envirolink.org please tell me how one may qualify for this list? i so much want to join. respectfully simon miles From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 30 12:48:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA07488 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 12:48:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19481; Sun, 30 May 1999 12:38:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3.hawaii.rr.com (smtp3.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19377 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 12:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phyl - 24.94.65.29 by smtp3.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Sun, 30 May 1999 06:27:25 -1000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990530063110.00c79930@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 06:34:09 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: Re: INTERN in HAWAII In-Reply-To: <37500E0D.421E@bright.net> References: <4.1.19990525084945.009409d0@pop-server> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_867065==_.ALT" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1035 --=====================_867065==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I am coming to Hawaii in October and wonder if it would be possible to >visit with you. I am a substance abuse counselor and am developing a CSA >using biodynamic principles. > >Marilyn May 30, 1999 - Hawaii Dear Marilyn, We would be glad to visit with you when you come to Hawaii in October. Just let us know when. I am planning to go to the BD conference with Manfred Klett in NY in the beginning of Oct though. Hopefully meeting you will work out. Aloha, Phyl ============================================== pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com Phyl Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. Waianae, HI 96792 808-696-1010 808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_867065==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" >I am coming to Hawaii in October and wonder if it would be possible to
>visit with you. I am a substance abuse counselor and am developing a CSA
>using biodynamic principles.
>
>Marilyn

May 30, 1999 - Hawaii

Dear Marilyn,

We would be glad to visit with you when you come to Hawaii in October. Just let us know when. I am planning to go to the BD conference with Manfred Klett in NY in the beginning of Oct though. Hopefully meeting you will work out.

Aloha,

Phyl


==============================================
pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com

Phyl Dwyer
Kahumana Farm
86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd.
Waianae, HI 96792

808-696-1010
808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_867065==_.ALT-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun May 30 18:09:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA10495 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 18:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03072; Sun, 30 May 1999 17:58:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA02935 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 17:55:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [158.252.242.166] (sdn-ar-011casfraP164.dialsprint.net [158.252.242.166]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23782 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 14:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905302155.OAA23782@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 14:42:42 -0700 Subject: Problem From: "Robert Coulombe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1036 I keep getting requests to unsubscribe from various people. How did I get into that highly charged position of listmaster? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 31 00:14:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA13579 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 00:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA17708; Mon, 31 May 1999 00:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12558 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 21:45:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.70] (pm3shep2-163-70.intrepid.net [209.190.163.70]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA26936 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 21:45:48 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15a1e14d.2482be64@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 21:47:53 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: 3rd attempt Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1037 >bdnow@envirolink.org > >please tell me how one may qualify for this list? > >i so much want to join. > >respectfully > >simon miles You're joined, Simon. You're joined. Welcome to Biodynamics Now! Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA moderator BIODYNAMICS Now! temp mailing address: 207 W. High Street POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 The first veil of illusion descends when we forget the inevitability of our own death. The second when we forget the inevitable deaths of everyone we know. - Wm S. Burroughs From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 31 00:38:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA13792 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 00:38:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA19414; Mon, 31 May 1999 00:24:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kimberlite.wwonline.com (kimberlite.wwonline.com [209.82.60.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19326 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 00:22:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from one (cartman03.wwonline.com [209.82.61.133]) by kimberlite.wwonline.com (8.8.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id AAA03088 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 00:22:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990531001851.0086f100@wwonline.com> X-Sender: ernstvb@wwonline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:18:51 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Ernst von Bezold Subject: Re: OFF: Those damn grids in the air... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1038 At 23:04 28/05/99 -0400, Geoff Heinricks wrote about aerial vapour trail grids. The April - May 1999 issue of Nexus New Times magazine (volume 6, no. 3) has an informatively detailed investigation-in-process article on this subject under the by-line of William Thomas of Duncan, British Columbia. The introduction to the article in the table of contents as I found it at the Nexus New Times website (searched www.metacrawler.com for "Nexus Magazine" to get http://www.icom.net/~nexus/welcome.html) is as follows: 'CHEMTRAILS': POISON FROM THE SKY By William Thomas. Contrails made by US Air Force aircraft tankers have been criss-crossing US skies for the last two years and have coincided with mysterious respiratory disease outbreaks. Are they part of a biowarfare or weather-control experiment? This seems to me like a good question to ask, among others. As answers may well have agricultural as well as broader environmental implications, I am posting here rather than replying only to the original sender to the list. >Sorry to lower the tone, especially after Hugh's masterful post on the >Sosei phenom...but tonight I finally noticed a very unusual trail grid in >the sky tonight. Not disipating like normal vapour trails. The nearly full >moon made it jump out. Now, we're 10 miles from one of Canada's major >military airfields, and they're doing a lot of flights to and from the >Adriatic right now. But these were not related to that. The flight >intersects were so weird for the usual flight paths. > >I seem to remember a few posts on this earlier this year. If I recall >correctly, wasn't the consenus that this was some sort of cloud seeding? >This area is right on the edge of sustained, deep drought. Could that be >what is going on, but nobody bothered to tell us? > >Curious...any help appreciated, > Geoff Heinricks >Prince Edward Co. Ontario From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 31 08:00:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA16530 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 08:00:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA02608; Mon, 31 May 1999 07:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA02556 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 07:45:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp258.cy-net.net [208.21.195.67]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA26947 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 06:46:08 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEAB31.11416C40@FLYLO>; Mon, 31 May 1999 06:44:44 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEAB31.11416C40@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Problem (How to get off list) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 06:34:16 -0500 Encoding: 13 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1039 Not to worry, we all get those (uns*b) messages. When I first signed on, I saved the listadmin's suggestions on how to get off list. It goes like this: to UNSUBSCRIBE from BD NOW!, send 'unsubscribe bdnow' in the BODY of a message to listproc@envirolink.org (no SUBJECT is necessary) If the people wanting off list would take a moment to notice that the address is listproc and not bdnow, they wouldn't be telling the rest of us how much they want to get off the list. martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon May 31 13:16:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA20596 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 13:16:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15068; Mon, 31 May 1999 13:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15022 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 13:04:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.70] (pm3shep3-163-125.intrepid.net [209.190.163.125]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12775 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 13:04:36 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 13:06:49 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: overhauling a diaphram Solo backpack sprayer Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1040 Dear Allan, Here's a subject I hope you or one of your discussion group people know about...overhauling a Solo backpack sprayer. I purchased a kit that included a diaphram, spring, and a number of "O" rings. While the instructions were in English, certain critical directions were excluded, i.e., clockwise, couterclockwise. You're supposed to be able to remove the pressure cylinder, by pushing downward once you've turned it 180 degrees. It doesn't happen. Looking down, and feeling with my hand inside the tank, I can't help but wonder whether the toothed edges at the base of the pressure cylinder, are part of a locking ring? Any help would be appreciated. It's a bitch spending an hour stirring 500 only to find out your sprayer is out of commision. Tony From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 1 05:10:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA01112 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 05:10:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA09750; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 04:56:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA09600 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 04:54:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([203.96.101.98]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990601085715.CZCB8654004.mta1-rme@default> for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 20:57:15 +1200 Message-ID: <3753A0B5.7871@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 20:58:30 +1200 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Peppering advice References: <374376A9.25FE@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1041 Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: Hi Glen Apologies about delay in replying to your interesting post low energy levels at the moment. Yes I have been peppering some perennial weeds mainly dock and buttercup over the last 2 years . The main aim is to reduce weed seed germination in the future. > > Has anyone had experience with peppering perrennial plants such as > shrubs or other perrennials. > > Does the parent bush need to be removed as well? I have been removing the parent plant/bush by other means , also removing seed heads before maturity. > What is the existing plants growth habit after the peppering has been > applied? NO change to existing plants, so I have been making weed teas as well and spraying over the weeds as indicated by Maria Thun So far no clear results. I am hoping this will work on some of the more invasive weeds like Convolvulus,wandering willy and swamp buttercup. > Most of my experience with peppering plants has been with annuals to > date. The perrennials we have done we have removed the existing plants. It has been my observation that my annual weeds have also stopped reproducing and that our hand weeding is now only of the varities that I have not yet peppered. I have also noticed that my weed compostion is changing with the use of all the preps and heaps of compost This coming year My focus wiil be on weed teas spraying 3x at moon opp saturn/fullmoon during the growing season. Regards Tony Robinson Rambler Flowers Levin From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 1 05:52:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA01260 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 05:52:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA11183; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 05:38:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA11118 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 05:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([210.55.144.215]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990601093910.DJQA8654004.mta1-rme@default> for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:39:10 +1200 Message-ID: <3753AA89.4365@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 21:40:25 +1200 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Preps Back to back spraying. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1042 Hugh Lovel wrote: > It has been found that spraying the full sequence of BD preps back-to-back > is the most effective way of establishing a fully alive BD organism. So > start one evening with the 500. Spray the 501 the next dawning, BD winter > horn clay the next evening, BD summer horn clay the next dawning, BD barrel > compost the next evening, BD 508 (horsetail decoction) the next dawning, > and even homeopathic milk and honey the next evening and dawn. This gets it > all out there as a package and it works. Dear Hugh You have mentioned back to back spraying on several occasions. I am interested in trying it out on my intensive flower growing operation and I have several questions please. Do you start in desending period i.e. Prep 500 or acending period prep 501? I do not have any clay horn ready as yet, does that matter? What is the purpose of homopathic milk and honey ? How many times would you do it this way per year? I try to spray 500 2x in autumn and 1x in the spring and 501 1x each spring and autumn and the barrel compost when I remember at moon opp saturn. Many thanks Tony Robinson Rambler Flowers Levin New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 1 17:55:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15150 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 17:55:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA17648; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 17:44:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17503 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 17:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ihug.co.nz (p27-max16.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.17.118.219]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id JAA00811 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:43:04 +1200 Message-ID: <37544CA0.AFF7C843@ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 09:12:00 +1200 From: I & K Buckingham Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Peppering advice References: <374376A9.25FE@xtra.co.nz> <3753A0B5.7871@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1043 Rambler wrote: > Yes I have been peppering some perennial weeds mainly dock and buttercup > over the last 2 years . The main aim is to reduce weed seed germination > in the future. >I have also noticed that my weed compostion is changing with the use of all the preps >and heaps of compost Tony as you are no doubt aware that `weeds' are a great indication of soil condition. By just rushing in and peppering might lower the weed population, but it does not solve the initial problem of why the weeds were growing in that area in the first place. Regards Ian Buckingham Maungatawhiri New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 2 13:01:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA02462 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:01:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06848; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06397 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.74]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990602164457.RPHN8654004.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 04:44:57 +1200 Message-ID: <37555F7F.7B31@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 04:44:48 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: World and Personal manifestations diagram Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1044 In the process of doing part three of "Astrality and Plants" I took a wee detour and made a colour diagram of most of the terms we have come across in the course and these discussions so far. (Purely as I understand them of course.) In some ways it can act as part of a glossary of terms. Essentially it adds words to the 'Apple of Life" and has clarified for me several insights regarding the inner and outer nature of the reality we are trying to understand. In a sense this is part of my full moon answer, to my new moon question. One of the questions I have had and probably voiced here was the relationship between the Cos Si. Ter Ca. etc we are presented with in lectures 2 & 6 level and the Earthly matter, Cosmic forces etc we are presented with in lecture 8. Doing this picture clarifies they are (possibly) the inner and outer of each other on the 3 fold / modes/ physical body level. Cos Si etc being outer or free activity, Cosmic forces etc being inner or bound manifestation of that process. Anyway it is available at my web page http://business.fortunecity.com/huntsman/39/pictures.htm#world We will tidy things up a little more in the next few days - like putting the pictures on their own individual pages for speed of loading - but for now, there it is, enjoy. I would appreciate any comments or suggestions you might have. Please feel free to print it off, put it on your wall and give it to your friends (if applicable) cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 2 13:44:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03241 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09817; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:13:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wavecom.net (root@wave.sheridan.wy.us [206.54.116.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09713 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:12:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dbrown (sher1.wavecom.net [206.54.116.86]) by wavecom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01582 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:12:34 -0600 Message-ID: <000d01bead23$d160df80$567436ce@dbrown.wavecom.net> From: "Audrey Malan" To: "biodynamic list serve" Subject: preps and rain Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:14:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEACE9.2345FFA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1045 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEACE9.2345FFA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings all, Wet spring out here in Wyoming, and we are trying to get our preps on = between the rains. BD 502 is on, still to go: BC, BD 500, 508, 501 - my = question is how much time between rains should we wait? - it is going to = rain tomorrow, should we wait for a longer dry spell? Also, we need to = get our seed in the ground. Thanks for any assistance. Green regards, = Audrey ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEACE9.2345FFA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings all,
Wet spring out here in Wyoming, and = we are=20 trying to get our preps on between the rains.  BD 502 is on, still = to go:=20 BC, BD 500, 508, 501 - my question is how much time between rains should = we=20 wait? - it is going to rain tomorrow, should we wait for a longer dry=20 spell?  Also, we need to get our seed in the ground.  Thanks = for any=20 assistance.  Green regards, Audrey
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEACE9.2345FFA0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 2 13:48:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03374 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:48:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12484; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fpo.chudys.com (fpo.gloryroad.net [12.4.13.43]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12065 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:34:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wills (opop2-158 [205.216.33.158]) by fpo.chudys.com (8.9.1/v.MGC-2000) with SMTP id NAA05741 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:35:55 -0400 Message-ID: <37556CED.9BD@gloryroad.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 13:42:05 -0400 From: Will Hicks Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: World and Personal manifestations diagram References: <37555F7F.7B31@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1046 Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > > In the process of doing part three of "Astrality and Plants" I took a > wee detour and made a colour diagram of most of the terms we have come > across in the course and these discussions so far. (Purely as I > understand them of course.) In some ways it can act as part of a > glossary of terms. Essentially it adds words to the 'Apple of Life" and > has clarified for me several insights regarding the inner and outer > nature of the reality we are trying to understand. In a sense this is > part of my full moon answer, to my new moon question. > > One of the questions I have had and probably voiced here was the > relationship between the Cos Si. Ter Ca. etc we are presented with in > lectures 2 & 6 level and the Earthly matter, Cosmic forces etc we are > presented with in lecture 8. Doing this picture clarifies they are > (possibly) the inner and outer of each other on the 3 fold / modes/ > physical body level. Cos Si etc being outer or free activity, Cosmic > forces etc being inner or bound manifestation of that process. > > Anyway it is available at my web page > > http://business.fortunecity.com/huntsman/39/pictures.htm#world > > We will tidy things up a little more in the next few days - like putting > the pictures on their own individual pages for speed of loading - but > for now, there it is, enjoy. > > I would appreciate any comments or suggestions you might have. Please > feel free to print it off, put it on your wall and give it to your > friends (if applicable) > > cheers > > Glen A. Wow! Glen, great site! I will digest more of it tonight. Thanks, Will Hicks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 2 13:57:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03510 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12524; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:37:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12080 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:34:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00D7464B@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:33:38 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 2 Jun 99 13:34:53 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 2 Jun 99 13:34:31 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:34:24 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Peppering questions Priority: normal In-reply-to: <37544CA0.AFF7C843@ihug.co.nz> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1047 > Rambler wrote: > > > Yes I have been peppering some perennial weeds mainly dock and buttercup > > over the last 2 years . The main aim is to reduce weed seed germination > > in the future. > > >I have also noticed that my weed compostion is changing with the use of all the preps >and heaps of compost > > Tony as you are no doubt aware that `weeds' are a great indication of > soil condition. By just rushing in and peppering might lower the weed > population, but it does not solve the initial problem of why the weeds > were growing in that area in the first place. > > > Regards > > Ian Buckingham > Maungatawhiri > New Zealand I'm curious. I understood Mr. Rambler to say that he had NOT been able to detect a difference due to peppering (at least not one that could be separated from other possible causes, like use of "heaps of compost"), and really I have not heard of anyone who can actually say that peppering for whatever (weeds, rats, deer...) has had a noticeable effect. And yet, bd'ers continue to keep the faith. Ian's post both assumes peppering to be a valid weed eradication approach AND that it is not really valid even theoretically since it (presumably) treats a symptom rather than a cause. So, what's the deal? I do believe it is Steiner himself that says that all science starts with observation and questioning. So, I'm questioning, and I'm asking what are the observations out there?? I have no doubt that careful planting, good water managament, liberal use of high quality compost, and planting in rotation and appropriate combination can do wonders for fertility, health, and lowering of pest problems. But I wonder where or if the hokus pokus of peppering is really useful. Any comments? Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 2 15:11:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05733 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21623; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21531 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:58:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.186]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990602190051.SCND8654004.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 07:00:51 +1200 Message-ID: <37557F59.3377@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 07:00:41 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Horn clay post -potentised preps Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1048 Well, another Greg masterpiece Amid the vitriol I am sure these are comments of value. The following caught my eye though > These “prepotentized” preps are really a problem as they > do much to throw a field off balance rather than restore balance. We do > not recommend them under any circumstances. Potentising preparations specialises their function even more than they are already. In themselves each preparation is inbalanced and used by itself will create inbalanced plant growth and soil development. Taking this next step in Biodynamic practice is like the difference between a 1940s typewriter and the lastest computer. Sure the latest computer can go fast and do heaps but it also makes bigger mistakes quickier and takes a further degree of training to use it to its ability and efficiently. Using potentised preps is the same. If you are going to do it you will need specific understandings and experience to not create havoc. Listen to Hughs stories of the stream of difficulties he has had with them in his cosmic pipe. I have seen the same many times as well. But to "not use them under any circumstances" is to remain in the dark ages and ignore RS suggestions in the course and the instructions he gave to the Koliskos 5 years before he gave the agriculture course. Just be aware they are for skilled practitioners and should be used under the guidance of someone who is skilled in their use. I consider them a higher degree study ( at least masters) than the certificate level of Biodynamics promoted by most BDAs and consultants I have come across. I suggest Greg does not know how to use them yet and once he does he will be just as firm a supporter of them as he is of horn clay. Unless of course he suffers from the same level of threat about other peoples creativity as he believes others feel towards him.( And cope with his greatest development in BD practise, statement being challenged). Which could be the case given this post has tones of - Sri Greg being the one and only BD practioner we should be listening to and obeying mindlessly. "Just stay on the tracks no matter what" and all that. Having said this I do see Gregs rationale and explanation as highly likely realities. Pity about the attitude. Call me rebellious. It just sounds like a little investigation into the Leo Aquarius dynamic could be in order. After all it is part of the August 11th fixed grand cross we are all hurtling towards. Just quickly, Leo is the principle of one kingly centre with all the serfs or slaves in obeyence to it. While Aquarius is when the serfs have evolved into being their own centre (Leos) and now come together as a collective of (Leos) self empowered and creative individuals. The leader arises out of the needs of the time rather than proclaimed by themselves. Thankfully this is the rising energy and August just pushes us one step further along the journey, at the further demise of the Leo maniacs, hopefully. While I am at it, this made me chuckle with recognition. > THEY like to > take credit for these kinds of discoveries and advancements and when > they can't, they find ways to ignore them. If they can figure out a way to steal it and take credit for it, then they will embrace it. In short, politics. Hypocrites. So true, we have one character here in NZ who works against my work being published and then takes my ideas and publishes them in the BD journal under his/her name. Makes me wonder about peoples understanding of morality and karma really. Then of course we are encouraged to potentise every substance under the sun except the preps - that is evil. As we were told by our esteemed Sri Proctor at one AGM. Tut tut E & L Kolisko, N Remer and that naughty Hugh Lovel. Just think how far the use of potentised preps would be if someone other than that obnoxious, loud mouthed, uncontrollable, scam busting GA, worked them out in 1986. Thank God and Alan for BDNOW, at least I get to publish my ideas under my name with a date on them, I am even able to display my 'heretical' diagrams on my own site. What a great Aquarian liberation against the Leoian plutocracy in all its manifestations. March on the Aquarian rainbow warriors. cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 2 17:06:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA08877 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:06:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02429; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:53:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02004 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:50:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.241]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990602205225.TAUT8654004.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:52:25 +1200 Message-ID: <3755997F.3466@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 08:52:15 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: W & P manifestations diagram Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1049 Subject: Re: World and Personal manifestations diagram Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 11:19:25 -0600 From: "Pam DeTray" To: "Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage" Hi Glen, The email program I use for reading and posting to BDNOW seems to be having trouble with the send function today. I love your page, and maybe you could post this to the list for me. I need to get back outside while I have a few hours of decent weather to work in. Pam ---- On Jun 2 wrote: > In the process of doing part three of "Astrality and Plants" I took a > wee detour and made a colour diagram of most of the terms we have come > across in the course and these discussions so far. snip http://business.fortunecity.com/huntsman/39/p ictures.htm#world snip > I would appreciate any comments or suggestions you might have. Glen, that's a beautiful page, and I'll study it more later. With all the rain we've been having, that will probably be sooner rather than later! Thanks for the work. Funny it came at a time when I was going to ask the practiced backyard gardeners on the list if they'd care to contribute notes about their daily work, how they consider and incorporate BD principles into the daily scheme of things. For the last 10 years, most of my work here has been building soil and landscaping. This is the first year I've been serious about growing veggies in a long time. I've been fighting bad weather the last six weeks, and in addition to being behind because of that, I find myself stumbling through when to do things according to the calendar. For instance: If I'm growing leaf vegetables in a certain spot, do I do all soil preparation during leaf days? What if bad weather prevents planting something on the right day? Just how subtle or strong are the calendar indications? I appreciate the chance to learn theory here, and I've learned a lot, but when I'm out in the garden with shovel in hand, I often wish one of you lived right next door! Cheers, Pam DeTray From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 2 17:06:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA08961 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:06:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02349; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01988 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ihug.co.nz (p55-max17.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.17.119.55]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id IAA13309 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:50:06 +1200 Message-ID: <37559841.919769EA@ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 08:46:57 +1200 From: I & K Buckingham Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Peppering questions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1050 "Anita Graf (Staff)" wrote: > and really I have not heard of anyone who can actually say > that peppering for whatever (weeds, rats, deer...) has had a > noticeable effect. And yet, bd'ers continue to keep the faith. Anita The use of peppers and success or failure with, I believe is very difficult to prove. Many years ago the birds were harvesting the plums faster than I was able to. So shooting a blackbird I burnt and scattered some of the ash(mixed with sand) around the trees. No effect. So next day I sat and ground ( dynamised) the ash for an hour and then spread once more. No more birds eating the fruit. Did it work or had the birds had their fill and moved to other fruit, I cannot say. I believe it worked. Now I do not pepper or experiment with this process. I feel it is a very chemical oriented approach. I have a problem lets destroy it. In our situation the fruit is not a commercial crop, simply for our own use. Fine, I plant an extra tree and the birds and I can share. > But I wonder where or if the hokus pokus of peppering is really > useful. Any comments? For me it is not something I would use as I believe the effects could be quite catastrophic if one goes over board and peppers everything they do not like. Yes for me it does work. Not always I hasten to add. Perhaps as Ferdy stated, when discussing the application of the preparations, the farmers thoughts are important as to why he is peppering. Negative may bring negative results. Who can say. There is so much more for us to research on this subject. I see each and every one of us as scientists, working on our own plots of land. Not only for the good of that particular piece of the earth but for the whole earth and beyond. My heart felt plea to each and every one of us is to keep a journal of our work. What we do and how we do it. What works and what does not. If like mine, memory does let me down and usually at the wrong time :>) Regards Ian Buckingham Maungatawhiri New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 2 17:06:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA08957 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02389; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:53:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01996 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:49:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.241]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990602205214.TASV8654004.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:52:14 +1200 Message-ID: <37559973.515B@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 08:52:03 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: peppering questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1051 Anita I will have some more hard data for you in a week or so but there seems little doubt that the pepper we made for our kiwifruit clients this last season has had a great positive impact. We have over 30 orchards we are collecting data from, now they have been picked. To date estimates of 70% improvement (as in less bugs) are common. The 30 growers have come to me from word of mouth from only 5 or so at the beginning of the season. Most of the data collection is by a 3rd party packhouse so it will be quite objective. So I for one have no doubt, peppering works - if done correctly. It has been done in NZ for sometime I am not sure why the BDANZ has not developed any meaningful data by now. cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 2 17:07:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA08983 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:07:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02717; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:56:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02534 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:54:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from digisys.net (modem106.digisys.net [205.138.110.155]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA14154; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:55:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37559A33.E0D97AF5@digisys.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 14:55:15 -0600 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" , CSA-L Subject: CSA West Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1052 Hello, I'm trying to locate a phone number, e-mail address, or web site address for CSA West in Davis, California. The phone number listed in "Farms of Tomorrow Revisited" is not a working number. I tried getting a number through long-distance information, but alas no luck there either. Pat From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 2 17:23:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA09368 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:23:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA04073; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:12:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from digisys.net (digisys.net [205.138.110.204]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03986 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:11:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from digisys.net (modem106.digisys.net [205.138.110.155]) by digisys.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA20476; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:12:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37559E30.297C57FF@digisys.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:12:16 -0600 From: "P. Hironimus" Organization: Simply Health Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" , CSA-L Subject: CSA West Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1053 I found the information. Thanks. Pat From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 2 18:34:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA10774 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 18:34:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09134; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 18:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09091 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 18:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.168]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990602222429.UHAP8654004.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:24:29 +1200 Message-ID: <3755AF13.241E@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 10:24:19 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Horn clay post - Greg Willis Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1054 OOps.. sorry I thought this came through the list. As stated before there is some good info in here, so I will edit the vitriole out - which might be why Alan did not post it - and give you the rest. large edit Hugh Lovel wrote: > It has been found that spraying the full sequence of BD preps back-to-back > is the most effective way of establishing a fully alive BD organism. So > start one evening with the 500. Spray the 501 the next dawning, BD winter > horn clay the next evening, BD summer horn clay the next dawning, BD barrel > compost the next evening, BD 508 (horsetail decoction) the next dawning, > and even homeopathic milk and honey the next evening and dawn. This gets it > all out there as a package and it works. First, we have established that it is important to spray the preps as close together as possible. The closer they are, the more they are capable of interelating which makes for a stronger program and healthier plants. So what would happen if one sprays this sequence (recommended by Hugh) using the winter horn clay in the evening then the summer horn clay the next morning followed by BC, etc.? Well. One thing we can say is that Hugh is very creative. ..edit... One must begin any program where Horn Clay has not been used with a 12 month clay then follow with 6 month clays made and applied at the appropriate time. Whether it is in the Northern or Southern Hemisphere makes no difference, the rule still applies. (SEE THE HORN CLAY INSTRUCTIONS BELOW) Now in this particular sequence, lets start with the misplaced application of the Barrel Compost. This ...... will cause the field to be grossly out of balance in the direction of the leafy part of the plant. Furthermore, it gives every indication that the field will go into a state of temporary shock when the BC is applied. Remember, BC is not like BD compost. It is only a poor substitute for real compost. All you are really doing with the BC is making what the compost preps have to offer available to the field. Nothing more. You are most certainly NOT contributing directly to the increase in humus in the field. The activity of the compost preps is important in that they prepare the field for the other preps and they add to the balancing process in the field. BUT, as with any homeopathic remedy, the field will go into a temporary state of discharge of its more negative forces or toxins/poisons and this takes time, typically 2 days. This we sometimes refer to as shock. Toxic shock - and it is important for the field to experience this at first, not in the middle of a sequence as it will seriously disrupt the sequence to the point of making it - the sequence - almost useless. (You may recall from Dr. Steiner's lectures that one begins a BD program with the BD compost, not the 500 and 501 sprays. Barrel Compost is a substitute for BD compost. It is only reasonable to BEGIN with BC, not insert it into the sequence at an inopportune time.) So we can say that the first defect in this proposed sequence is the misplacement of the Barrel Compost (rain making or rain squelching sequences not withstanding upon which I may or may not comment at another time). Secondly, we will address the winter/summer Horn Clay suggestion. First it is unnecessary and damaging to the field if this is done as Hugh has instructed you to do. Second, there is no need to make two sprays when one will do. The sequence we suggest would be to start with Barrel Compost in the evening, wait two days, spray 500 in the evening, 501 the next morning and end the spray sequence with the appropriate summer or winter TWELVE MONTH Horn Clay, ending it there. Should you wish to add 508 to the sequence, do so. It cannot hurt and may even be of some help. If Horn Clay is applied in the morning, it will not be effective even a little bit. The forces in it moves up into the upper part of the plant where it will attract moisture and we will see an increase in fungal growth and a decrease in flowering that may occur otherwise. NEVER spray Horn Clay in the morning and NEVER Spray Horn Clay on the upper part of a plant. The only exception to the latter point would be to use it as part of a larger program as a trunk spray on orchard trees, etc. But even then, it must be used with extreme caution. About this question of “winter horn clay” and “summer horn clay” as described by Hugh in his email, this is misleading. Is this 12 month “winter horn clay” or 6 month “winter horn clay”? You see, we must specify which it is so that we are doing what should be done properly which will get the desired results. Always begin a Horn Clay program by starting with the Spring to Spring 12 month clay or the Fall to Fall 12 month clay applied at the appropriate time of the year. For Spring to Spring 12 month clay, the time to apply it is the time between the Winter Solstice and the Summer Solstice. For the Fall to Fall 12 month clay, that is the time period from the Summer Solstice to the Winter Solstice. The same applies for the 6 month clays. If you do the applications as Hugh has postulated, all that will be accomplished is that the "winter" and "summer" Horn Clays will cancel out each other and you might as well not spray anything. So we can conclude by saying that Hugh is, for all practical purposes, completely wrong is his suggestion. (I am doing my best to be polite.) About your question: “Do you start in descending period i.e. Prep 500 or ascending period prep 501?”? I presume that you are referring to the movement of the Moon around the Earth as it crosses the ecliptic of the Earth, a movement which can be ascending or descending as it moves up or down across the plane relative to the Earth poles. For these purposes it makes little difference. I refer you to my paper on this subject about when is the best time to spray each prep which I have copied at the end of this letter. (SEE BELOW) As an aside, you may ask yourself if, from a Southern Hemisphere point of view, if the North Pole is really "up" and the South Pole is really "down". That would make ascending - descending and descending - ascending. See the point? Now as to your question about the purpose of milk and honey, with all due respect to Hugh Courtney whom I believe came up with this idea, as I have stated in the past, milk and honey spray is, in my opinion, a useless spray and only has an effect on the plants if the user feels or thinks that it will. The plants do not respond to the spray, they respond to the thought. I consider it a waste of time. Moving on, you said: “I try to spray 500 2x in autumn and 1x in the spring and 501 1x each spring and autumn and the barrel compost when I remember at moon opp Saturn.” I would ask you this: Is there any point to using the supposedly more powerful sprays? Again, as I have said in the past, it is essential that one learn what the basic 500 and 501 sprays will do FIRST before venturing into the supposedly potentized sprays such as 500 2x. We recommend the above sequence that I outlined only. This business of using more "powerful" preps is folly and does not really work the way people think that it does. Stick with the basics and you will be very happy. One of the major problems with biodynamics is that few people really understand it. These “prepotentized” preps are really a problem as they do much to throw a field off balance rather than restore balance. We do not recommend them under any circumstances. To grow the best flowers, the best thing that you can do is to start a program of basic biodynamics adding the appropriate Horn Clay at the appropriate time. Anything less and you will have severe problems. Greg Willis ******** From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 2 22:06:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA14678 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:06:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25251; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:54:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA25073 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:52:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.101] (pm3shep2-163-101.intrepid.net [209.190.163.101]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA08814; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:53:04 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:52:09 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Sequences with Horn Clay - Correcting Errors Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id VAA25078 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1055 Dear Tony, Your questions regarding Horn Clay and Hugh Lovel's remarks were forwarded to me from the bdnow list, to which I no longer belong, but it was forwarded because of the reference to horn clay. I have repeatedly chastized Hugh Lovel for giving out erroneous information about Horn Clay but it appears that the message just doesn't get through. Inasmuch as it was I, not Hugh Lovel, who discovered how to make and use Horn Clay, I feel both a sense of responsibility and a need to correct these errors. Like it or not, like me or not, I am the world expert on Horn Clay. Not Hugh - although he means well. I am working to update my website and will eventually post a considerable amount of information about Horn Clay on it so that these kinds of errors do not occur needlessly. I have copied this to Hugh Lovel. Also, I have copied this to Allan Balliett as he may wish to put it up on the list. He has my permission to do so this one time. Or, you may wish to forward it. How to make and use Horn Clay is the single most important discovery in the history of biodynamic agriculture. It is the missing link that ties every prep together and makes it all work as a whole. It has been the Holy Grail of biodynamics for 75 years and everyone who tried to make it failed to make it because they failed to understand it. Yet even though we finally have it to use, it has not been widely accepted for any number of reasons not the least of which is that it is still new and the fact that it takes a full year to make it and more time to gain some experience to work with it. Another is that some BD associations like to play politics and they find it inconceivable and somewhat scary that someone who is definitely NOT a member of the Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Association, Inc. could actually accomplish what they utterly failed to do for 75 years. THEY like to take credit for these kinds of discoveries and advancements and when they can't, they find ways to ignore them. Typical of dogmatic and pseudo-religious organizations. If they can figure out a way to steal it and take credit for it, then they will embrace it. In short, politics. Hypocrites. Do not let politics, ignorance or self-serving stupid people prevent you from incorporating Horn Clay into your BD program. It is gratifying to know that among other people around the world (including Peter Proctor), Hugh Courtney at the Josephine Porter Institute (JPI) has started making Horn Clay and will have a limited supply available for next Spring. It will be interesting to see what the USBDA, known to me for its unethical behavior, non-exsistant moral standards, self-enriching schemes for the inner "chosen few" and general ignorance and stupidity, will do now that one of their own Board Members (a shining light) is making it. If you make some Horn Clay yourself and use it EXACTLY as I have instructed, you will get success too. If you use someone else's suggestions or don't follow my instructions, I cannot guarantee that you will get success. In fact, I guarantee that you won't so don't waste your time following someone else's advice. Moving on. Hugh Lovel wrote: > It has been found that spraying the full sequence of BD preps back-to-back > is the most effective way of establishing a fully alive BD organism. So > start one evening with the 500. Spray the 501 the next dawning, BD winter > horn clay the next evening, BD summer horn clay the next dawning, BD barrel > compost the next evening, BD 508 (horsetail decoction) the next dawning, > and even homeopathic milk and honey the next evening and dawn. This gets it > all out there as a package and it works. First, we have established that it is important to spray the preps as close together as possible. The closer they are, the more they are capable of interelating which makes for a stronger program and healthier plants. So what would happen if one sprays this sequence (recommended by Hugh) using the winter horn clay in the evening then the summer horn clay the next morning followed by BC, etc.? Well. One thing we can say is that Hugh is very creative. Another thing we can say is that Hugh hasn’t any idea what he is talking about. One must begin any program where Horn Clay has not been used with a 12 month clay then follow with 6 month clays made and applied at the appropriate time. Whether it is in the Northern or Southern Hemisphere makes no difference, the rule still applies. (SEE THE HORN CLAY INSTRUCTIONS BELOW) Now in this particular sequence, lets start with the misplaced application of the Barrel Compost. This blunder will cause the field to be grossly out of balance in the direction of the leafy part of the plant. Furthermore, it gives every indication that the field will go into a state of temporary shock when the BC is applied. Remember, BC is not like BD compost. It is only a poor substitute for real compost. All you are really doing with the BC is making what the compost preps have to offer available to the field. Nothing more. You are most certainly NOT contributing directly to the increase in humus in the field. The activity of the compost preps is important in that they prepare the field for the other preps and they add to the balancing process in the field. BUT, as with any homeopathic remedy, the field will go into a temporary state of discharge of its more negative forces or toxins/poisons and this takes time, typically 2 days. This we sometimes refer to as shock. Toxic shock - and it is important for the field to experience this at first, not in the middle of a sequence as it will seriously disrupt the sequence to the point of making it - the sequence - almost useless. (You may recall from Dr. Steiner's lectures that one begins a BD program with the BD compost, not the 500 and 501 sprays. Barrel Compost is a substitute for BD compost. It is only reasonable to BEGIN with BC, not insert it into the sequence at an inopportune time.) So we can say that the first defect in this proposed sequence is the misplacement of the Barrel Compost (rain making or rain squelching sequences not withstanding upon which I may or may not comment at another time). Secondly, we will address the winter/summer Horn Clay suggestion. First it is unnecessary and damaging to the field if this is done as Hugh has instructed you to do. Second, there is no need to make two sprays when one will do. The sequence we suggest would be to start with Barrel Compost in the evening, wait two days, spray 500 in the evening, 501 the next morning and end the spray sequence with the appropriate summer or winter TWELVE MONTH Horn Clay, ending it there. Should you wish to add 508 to the sequence, do so. It cannot hurt and may even be of some help. If Horn Clay is applied in the morning, it will not be effective even a little bit. The forces in it moves up into the upper part of the plant where it will attract moisture and we will see an increase in fungal growth and a decrease in flowering that may occur otherwise. NEVER spray Horn Clay in the morning and NEVER Spray Horn Clay on the upper part of a plant. The only exception to the latter point would be to use it as part of a larger program as a trunk spray on orchard trees, etc. But even then, it must be used with extreme caution. About this question of “winter horn clay” and “summer horn clay” as described by Hugh in his email, this is misleading. Is this 12 month “winter horn clay” or 6 month “winter horn clay”? You see, we must specify which it is so that we are doing what should be done properly which will get the desired results. Always begin a Horn Clay program by starting with the Spring to Spring 12 month clay or the Fall to Fall 12 month clay applied at the appropriate time of the year. For Spring to Spring 12 month clay, the time to apply it is the time between the Winter Solstice and the Summer Solstice. For the Fall to Fall 12 month clay, that is the time period from the Summer Solstice to the Winter Solstice. The same applies for the 6 month clays. If you do the applications as Hugh has postulated, all that will be accomplished is that the "winter" and "summer" Horn Clays will cancel out each other and you might as well not spray anything. So we can conclude by saying that Hugh is, for all practical purposes, completely wrong is his suggestion. (I am doing my best to be polite.) About your question: “Do you start in descending period i.e. Prep 500 or ascending period prep 501?”? I presume that you are referring to the movement of the Moon around the Earth as it crosses the ecliptic of the Earth, a movement which can be ascending or descending as it moves up or down across the plane relative to the Earth poles. For these purposes it makes little difference. I refer you to my paper on this subject about when is the best time to spray each prep which I have copied at the end of this letter. (SEE BELOW) As an aside, you may ask yourself if, from a Southern Hemisphere point of view, if the North Pole is really "up" and the South Pole is really "down". That would make ascending - descending and descending - ascending. See the point? Now as to your question about the purpose of milk and honey, with all due respect to Hugh Courtney whom I believe came up with this idea, as I have stated in the past, milk and honey spray is, in my opinion, a useless spray and only has an effect on the plants if the user feels or thinks that it will. The plants do not respond to the spray, they respond to the thought. I consider it a waste of time. Moving on, you said: “I try to spray 500 2x in autumn and 1x in the spring and 501 1x each spring and autumn and the barrel compost when I remember at moon opp Saturn.” I would ask you this: Is there any point to using the supposedly more powerful sprays? Again, as I have said in the past, it is essential that one learn what the basic 500 and 501 sprays will do FIRST before venturing into the supposedly potentized sprays such as 500 2x. We recommend the above sequence that I outlined only. This business of using more "powerful" preps is folly and does not really work the way people think that it does. Stick with the basics and you will be very happy. One of the major problems with biodynamics is that few people really understand it. These “prepotentized” preps are really a problem as they do much to throw a field off balance rather than restore balance. We do not recommend them under any circumstances. To grow the best flowers, the best thing that you can do is to start a program of basic biodynamics adding the appropriate Horn Clay at the appropriate time. Anything less and you will have severe problems. Greg Willis ******** #509 Horn Clay - I AM WORKING ON AN UPDATED VERSION OF THIS FOR MY WEBSITE http://www.agsyn.com Technical Data We make four kinds of horn clay. We use bentonite clay because it is available, already ground to a powder and is established midway between other clays. It is in the smectite clay group. We pack it in the horns exactly the same as horn silica. We spray a Spring to Fall horn clay that is applied in the Spring; a Fall to Spring clay that is applied in the Fall; a Spring to Spring clay (one year in the ground) for new Spring applications; and a Fall to Fall horn clay for new Fall applications. These latter two would be for new fields and fields in a state of severe neglect. Thereafter use the six month clay started at the same time as the spray application. The year is divided into Spring and Fall by the summer and winter solstices. Mix a rounded 1/2 teaspoon per acre in rain water or solarized water and stir for 60 minutes, then apply. For soils deficient in clay, we use a rounded full teaspoon per acre. You will find that a double application will be far more effective than one double strength application. Horn clay will stay active for a minimum of 3 hours after it is stirred and has a residual effect in the field of about six months, so it is well to apply it twice a year. Commentary Horn clay is very important to the success of the application of the preparations. Without the horn clay, it is simply not possible for the biodynamic system of preparations to reach its fullest potential. The misuse or lack of use of horn clay over the years since the original lectures has had a very limiting effect on the progress of biodynamics. Clay works to connect the concepts in the human mind just as it works to connect the effects of silica and clay. Those who do not use it do not benefit from the complete understanding of the what the Universe has to offer. So the lack of use of clay, or horn clay, has a limiting effect on the benefits and the understanding of the basic system. Clay plays the part of the mediator, in a sense, like water. It acts to connect the various disparate elements of Nature into a coherent whole. Without the action and activity of clay to hold it together, it is not possible for the various elements to carry out their respective duties. How does this come about? Let us look at clay more closely. You will notice that it has a very strong positive and negative bonding properties. These properties are representative of the nature of clay. It holds together or bonds the various elements so that they can work together. It is, in a very real sense, the glue that binds the soil together. Without this glue, it is not possible for soil to gain the kind of structure, both physical and etheric, necessary for a plant to properly exist. This structure, emblematic of the structure of the Universe, is what holds soils together. So we see that the nature of clay is that is binds and connects, both at once. These physical realities or observations work exactly in the same manner in the astral and etheric worlds. All work together. Why is it important to make horn clay? This too is very much like the other remedies. It is important to at once conserve and utilize the homeopathic properties of the clay. Bentonite clay is more than adequate to do the job. Other local clays work very well too. The horn clay works homeopathically as do the others. By placing the clay in the soil as you would horn silica, you are greatly increasing its power to radiate its spiritual properties over large areas. So it is at once more efficient and more beneficial for all the same reasons the silica and cow manure are placed in the horn first. The presence of horn clay in a field will bring together or bind the various disparate elements that you are applying. This is the genius of God. By further preparing the horn clay as you would the BD 500 and BD 501, you are creating a sympathetic presence in the field as well. The horn clay that is prepared in the Fall to Spring gets applied in the following Fall. The clay that is buried in the Spring to Fall is applied in the following Spring. The clay that is set in the soil in the Fall and kept there for a full year is best used remedially as a Fall application in fields that are in a state of severe neglect. This would be the horn clay of choice to begin. The same may be said of the one year old Spring horn clay. Apply the following Spring. After you have created an inventory of the four horn clays, you will see that the one year old clay works best as a beginning clay and the six month clay works best for better agricultural areas which have experienced the BD approach for some time. Then and only then will you be using the six month clay. In other words, the one year clay first, the six month clay as time goes on. Horn clay may be stored like the BD 501 in a glass bottle in the window or it may be placed in the dark. But it is best to place it in a bottle, not plastic. It has a life expectancy of at least five years. It may be reactivated by placing it in the ground at solstice time (either one) for about a week. Place it in the ground in a glass container only without a metallic lid. It would be best to place it in the ground with jar with a cork lid. One week is sufficient to recharge the clay for another year. Much more cannot be expected. Horn clay should be clay. Bentonite will do but others are in many ways just as good. You need to experiment. Do not use feldspar or Kaolin as the clay medium. They are too close to silica and not far enough away to do much good. The difference between the horn clay and BD 500 and BD 501 is that it should be placed in the ground for the entire year. It must experience all the facets of the sun, the moon and the Earth as she rotates and revolves around the sun. The horn clay works to mediate not just between the silica and the limestone, it mediates between the physical, astral and the etheric. In many ways it is similar to oak bark (BD #505). Though oak bark is rich in calcium, it is also rich in the astral energy necessary to bring the plant into bodily form. It works the same way with the soil. It brings it and all that live within into bodily form too. Even the worms, insects, and bacteria among all the others. Everything is effected by the strong astral energies of the oak bark. Thus it can also be used to enhance the areas that have been devastated by methyl bromide and other life killers in the soil. It can be mixed with 500 for this purpose. Horn clay is best applied in the Spring time. That does not mean that it cannot be applied at other times of the year. Do so only at the full moon days - three before and three after. Morning or evening it does not matter. It is not necessary to worry about whether or not it will rain with regard to the horn clay. Apply it. No problem unless it is raining at the time in a steady rain. Unlike the other BD preparations, the clay actually enjoys a little rain at the time it is applied. It works to bring together all the astral and etheric qualities in the plants, the soil and the air and water. It actually thrives on water. Notice how “bloated” clay gets in water. It loves it. ******** Lunar Influences BD #500 Horn Manure is best applied during the last part of the second quarter to the end of the third quarter. A root day is best but stem and leaf days will work well too. BD #501 Horn Silica is best applied during the third quarter. Best applied in the stem to flower periods. Not root. It will not have a deleterious effect if you spray it on a root day. Horn Clay is best applied in the afternoon during the third quarter. Best applied during a root, stem or leaf day, not a flower, fruit or seed day. BD #508 Horsetail Tea can be sprayed any time. But if you are trying to control mildew, it is especially effective during the second and third quarters when the life forces and water are in the upper portion of the plant. That is also the time when there is more likely to be mildew problems. When using #508 to speed up ripening, we would suggest that, again, any time is beneficial for the plant but especially the second and third quarters, on a fruit day. Barrel Compost spray, when applied for the first time, is best done in the early second quarter on a root day, before the 500 spray is applied. At other times it is best at the end of the third quarter and the beginning of the fourth quarter. At this time, taken together, the water forces and the formative forces are at their peak in the soil. As to other uses for the Barrel Compost, we don’t generally recommend continued applications of it even in fields which need all the preps. There is an accumulation of forces that will ultimately throw the field out of balance if you continually use Barrel Compost. This is the limitation with this particular prep. Too much is not good. What is too much? We would say that more than once or twice a year is too much. It is good to apply it to fields that have been inundated with water as in a flood or continued rain storm but generally we do not recommend its usage frequently or capriciously. Again, as to the first application time, it is best applied in the second quarter. The fourth lunar quarter is a time of resting for the soil. Sort of their monthly sleep period. So it is best to avoid life “stimulating” prep applications at this time. The preps can be applied at other times as well. The effect is greatest if you apply at the lunar quarters recommended. Just as you can apply 500 in the middle of the summer, you can apply 500 at other lunar quarters with little loss in effectiveness. Much of what the farmer is thinking has a direct effect on the effectiveness of the sprays as well. If for some reason you do not spray on the recommended day or the best lunar period, it will not have a negative effect. Nothing has a long lasting deleterious effect. Nothing. For example, we can say that if you spray 500 on a flower day, it will not be as effective as if you spray on a leaf day. The effect of BD #500 is in the lower part of the plant, not the upper part. That is left to 501. The key to success is the thinking of the farmer. This can always override the limitations of the preps and the Earth/physical plane. Farming in harmony with the balance of nature is the key to success. Not the preps alone. The use of the preps only lead to the harmony and balance we seek. There is perfect abundance available to every soul on Earth. Just use what God has given and it will be returned a thousandfold. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 2 22:23:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA15047 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA26561; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:10:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA26305 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:07:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.101] (pm3shep2-163-101.intrepid.net [209.190.163.101]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA11761 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:07:49 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:05:47 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD from Pam DeTray Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1056 Ian wrote: >For me it is not something I would use as I believe the >effects could be quite catastrophic if one goes over >board and peppers everything they do not like. Yes for >me it does work. Not always I hasten to add. Perhaps as >Ferdy stated, when discussing the application of the >preparations, the farmers thoughts are important as to >why he is peppering. Negative may bring negative results. >Who can say. >There is so much more for us to research on this subject. > >I see each and every one of us as scientists, working on >our own plots of land. Not only for the good of that >particular piece of the earth but for the whole earth >and beyond. Ian, there is so much truth to the power of thought it blows my mind. I've always pretty well accepted that, but 1998 was really my banner year for having the truth knock me in the head. I wasn't fully prepared for the power when I happened onto BD. Even though I was using the preps etc. and studying what I could it hadn't fully gelled. Last summer I became annoyed with a tree on my neighbor's property because it blocked my view of Mt. Borah, Idaho's tallest peak. I didn't realize what I was doing every time I looked at it and thought my selfish thoughts, but by August or September, I noticed it was dying, then truly dead. That property had a new owner, and maybe she decided on her own to remove the tree--it is totally gone now. I've never asked if she removed it on purpose or if it just died, as I feel guilty enough for whatever role my thoughts played. I've planted trees all my life to get more growing on this Earth, and this really makes me feel bad. Then of course there was the mouse incident last fall, when Glen's suggestion made me start paying attention to all my thoughts. Once I did, those mice never came back. For other people, this might not be such a big deal, but for me it was a major transformation. Having my sun in Pisces, for me thoughts and feelings were always like dreams--I was just there, good or bad. Learning to steer what controls my "little grey cells" has been tremendous. I'm more conscious, not just when I'm stirring a prep but all the time. The effect has extended into all areas of my life, not just gardening, but relationships, finances, all of it. Last year I could understand being generous with my money and my time, but now I understand the importance of being generous with my thoughts as well. The I Ching says we aren't to "execute" or "hold others prisoner" in our thoughts, and how a thought is like a wave of the hand that moves molecules all across the universe. I can personally testify to the truth of this. No wonder Jimmy Carter felt guilty about his lustful thoughts! Of course we should think twice before seeking to eradicate any species from our properties. At least find a way to get our thoughts into neutral gear before proceeding. And if we can do that with pests, maybe we can do it in our minds with annoying people, and learn more tolerance. And if we can do that, maybe just maybe oh maybe we can be more generous with ourselves, as well. To Hugh: for the last year I've had on my kitchen door a quote from one of your posts last May--"Try examining your beliefs and assumptions in regard to being your physical body." I've read that thing every day, and just knew it was a karmic assignment. It was. I did. I think I'm starting to grok it. Thanks to all of you for the wisdom and knowledge you post here. Warmest regards, Pam DeTray From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 3 07:08:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA20559 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 07:08:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA19235; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 06:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA19147 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 06:53:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.101] (pm3shep1-163-16.intrepid.net [209.190.163.16]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA31312 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 06:53:30 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 06:33:46 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Summer solstice..11:00 AM, June 21 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1057 >From agnihotra guru, Richard Powers **************************************************************************** ** * Richard & Lisa Powers * Visit our website at: http://www.summit.net/home/agnihotra.htm * Mail: Copperworks, Rt 8 Box 365, Madison VA 22727 * Ph. 540-948-5463 * Fax: 540-948-5214 **************************************************************************** ** From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 3 07:57:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA20883 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 07:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA21870; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 07:40:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand2.global.net.uk (sand2.global.net.uk [194.126.80.50]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21805 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 07:39:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pe4s14a01.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.142.229] helo=raithby.globalnet.co.uk) by sand2.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 10pVqu-0003HU-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:40:04 +0100 Message-ID: <37559E68.D668BC0B@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 22:13:13 +0100 From: ALISON EADES X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Glen's site References: <37555F7F.7B31@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1058 Glen I tried to access your site and Fortunecity said it was no longer at that address - is the URL below correct? Alison Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > In the process of doing part three of "Astrality and Plants" I took a > wee detour and made a colour diagram of most of the terms we have come > across in the course and these discussions so far. (Purely as I > understand them of course.) In some ways it can act as part of a > glossary of terms. Essentially it adds words to the 'Apple of Life" and > has clarified for me several insights regarding the inner and outer > nature of the reality we are trying to understand. In a sense this is > part of my full moon answer, to my new moon question. > > One of the questions I have had and probably voiced here was the > relationship between the Cos Si. Ter Ca. etc we are presented with in > lectures 2 & 6 level and the Earthly matter, Cosmic forces etc we are > presented with in lecture 8. Doing this picture clarifies they are > (possibly) the inner and outer of each other on the 3 fold / modes/ > physical body level. Cos Si etc being outer or free activity, Cosmic > forces etc being inner or bound manifestation of that process. > > Anyway it is available at my web page > > http://business.fortunecity.com/huntsman/39/pictures.htm#world > > We will tidy things up a little more in the next few days - like putting > the pictures on their own individual pages for speed of loading - but > for now, there it is, enjoy. > > I would appreciate any comments or suggestions you might have. Please > feel free to print it off, put it on your wall and give it to your > friends (if applicable) > > cheers > > Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 3 08:13:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA21116 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:13:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22657; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 07:56:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA22514 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 07:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp330.cy-net.net [208.21.195.139]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA27037 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 06:54:09 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEAD8D.DEC06FA0@FLYLO>; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 06:54:05 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEAD8D.DEC06FA0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Glen's site Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 06:52:23 -0500 Encoding: 16 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1059 Alison; I got to it just fine, as a matter of fact, I've saved the great diagram and now am trying to figure out how to send it off to hubby to get him to print it on their color cad print sys. -----Original Message----- From: ALISON EADES [SMTP:alison@raithby.globalnet.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 4:13 PM To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Glen's site Glen I tried to access your site and Fortunecity said it was no longer at that address - is the URL below correct? Alison From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 3 09:46:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22595 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:46:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28090; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27909 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:30:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00D7D71B@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 9:29:48 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 3 Jun 99 09:31:04 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 3 Jun 99 09:30:40 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:30:37 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: peppering questions Priority: normal In-reply-to: <37559973.515B@xtra.co.nz> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1060 > Anita > > I will have some more hard data for you in a week or so but there seems > little doubt that the pepper we made for our kiwifruit clients this last > season has had a great positive impact. We have over 30 orchards we are > collecting data from, now they have been picked. To date estimates of > 70% improvement (as in less bugs) are common. The 30 growers have come > to me from word of mouth from only 5 or so at the beginning of the > season. Most of the data collection is by a 3rd party packhouse so it > will be quite objective. > > So I for one have no doubt, peppering works - if done correctly. It has > been done in NZ for sometime I am not sure why the BDANZ has not > developed any meaningful data by now. > > cheers > Glen A. Oh, that IS convincing! Although one would like to know what other variables may have been changed simultaneously. It would be so nice to see something like this approached in a scientific way and the results even published somewhere. Just curious, what were you peppering for? And what does doing it "correctly" entail? Respectfully, Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 3 10:11:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA23054 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29669; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA29492 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:54:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00D7DD16@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 9:53:07 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 3 Jun 99 09:54:23 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 3 Jun 99 09:54:13 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:54:04 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: W & P manifestations diagram Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3755997F.3466@xtra.co.nz> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1061 Pam DeTray wrote: > because of that, I find myself stumbling through > when to do things according to the calendar. > > For instance: > If I'm growing leaf vegetables in a certain spot, > do I do all soil preparation during leaf days? > What if bad weather prevents planting something on > the right day? > Just how subtle or strong are the calendar > indications? As a one-time bd apprentice and general ag enthusiast, I have to comment that I believe getting so worked up over specific calender days is a lot of stress for little reason. The first bit of evidence is that conventional farmers pay absolutely NO heed to any of this stuff, and yet they produce food. Ok, you could argue that there's something spiritually different or at least less efficient to this planting strategy, but that is at the very most quite subtle. The next bit of evidence is that there is not even any concensus among bd farmers. Every farmer gives importance to different aspects of all of this and to differing degrees, and yet, barring major catastrophe, they all produce food, most of it very good food. On the CSA garden where I apprenticed, for example, the head gardener religiously towed the bd line in almost all respects (made his own beautiful preps, made a ceremony out of almost everything, we read the calender of the soul every morning, studied RS lectures, etc.) and yet the only planting rhythm he regularly paid attention to was the full moon. We always planted (into the beds, not the greenhouse) two days before the full moon. Flower, leaf, and root work took place as needed when possible without consulting Maria Thun or anyone else. And the year I worked there, the garden was fabulously successful -- generous, overflowing baskets for 40 shares all year long on 2 acres. As you can tell from my posts, I struggle between awe and admiration and harump- scepticism when it comes to bd. There is no question in my mind that the bd farms I have visited are among the best farms I have ever seen. There is lots of question, however, as to how much every detail really plays a part. I often thought as an apprentice that the huge amounts of good compost we consistently put everywhere must have made success inevitable regardless of all the ceremonial stirrings, preppings, pepperings, etc. I can say with certainty in my mind that there is at least A LOT of flexibility and subtlty at work here. I just can't believe that there is a magic formula that if you just plant, water, weed, cultivate, etc. in exactly the right moment in exactly the order, you reach an agricultural state of Nirvana. Of course I could be wrong, but it just doesn't seem worth it to me to get so neurotic about all these things. Surly the best tool you have is your intuition along with your critical faculties of observation and experimentation. I have a lull in my work at the moment, so I had some time to write these thoughts. Hope I haven't offended anyone. Sincerely, Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 3 11:57:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25756 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08631; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08396 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:42:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.6.161]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Thu, 3 Jun 1999 16:44:04 +0100 Message-ID: <37569F4C.3482@cwcom.net> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 16:29:16 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Peppering questions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1062 Anita - When I attended a short course at Emerson College a couple of years ago, we made a tour of the associated farm, which was on the point of becoming CSA. The farm manager showed us a large pasture which, he said, had been full of docks the previous year. Members of the proposed CSA had gathered to pull most of them; they were burnt in a large fire and the ash scattered. We wandered around searching, but not a dock was to be seen. Partly anecdotal, but also with my own eyes... Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 3 12:16:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26218 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10402; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:04:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10240 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00D7FD34@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:01:45 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 3 Jun 99 12:03:01 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 3 Jun 99 12:02:53 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:02:46 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Peppering questions Priority: normal In-reply-to: <37569F4C.3482@cwcom.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1063 > Anita - When I attended a short course at Emerson College a couple of > years ago, we made a tour of the associated farm, which was on the point > of becoming CSA. The farm manager showed us a large pasture which, he > said, had been full of docks the previous year. Members of the proposed > CSA had gathered to pull most of them; they were burnt in a large fire > and the ash scattered. We wandered around searching, but not a dock was > to be seen. Partly anecdotal, but also with my own eyes... Tony N-S. Well, yes, that's interesting. However, pulling up most of a plant is giant step toward conventional erradication. And what other horticultural steps were taken with regard to that field after that? And what role may a change of climate and/or season had to do with it? I don't know about the ecology of dock (much less in England -- that is where Emerson is, right?), so I have little to base an opinion on this. This is possibly an anecdotal story in support of peppering, but then again, quite possibly it's not. I'm not trying to be Randy The Magician, but I'm sure that bd stuff is supposed to hold up to some measure of scrutiny. Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 3 12:25:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26452 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:25:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11307; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11085 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:12:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.236]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990603161424.CTYG8785947.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 04:14:24 +1200 Message-ID: <3756A9E3.2195@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 04:14:27 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Bd calendar Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1064 Pam I support Anita stance on this one. The job is better done on the 'wrong' day than not done at all. If you can do the Thun thing then great, otherwise use what you can and go by the weather. Afterall it is the weather that filters the moon and planetary stuff before it gets to the plant. One of the realities I try to convey in my diagrams is the layered ness of creation, each layer effects those around it but mostly the ones below influence the way the ones above manifest. The weather is closer to us than the moon. cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 3 12:25:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26468 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11343; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:14:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11091 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:12:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.236]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990603161433.CTYQ8785947.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 04:14:33 +1200 Message-ID: <3756A9ED.3548@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 04:14:37 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: peppering questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1065 > Oh, that IS convincing! Although one would like to know what other > variables may have been changed simultaneously. Variables is a problem. eg on one orchard - Due to reduced numbers of insects there was less thinning (5000 trays worth) done in the field to last year, therefore a similiar reject rate showed up in the packhouse. Also the effect of the mid season drought etc. This is were weighing and measuring is irrelevant. This grower made the all things considered judgement of 70-80% improvement in his situation from last tyear. Given he lost $50,000 last year he is a happy chap. It would be so nice > to see something like this approached in a scientific way and the > results even published somewhere. Based on the results so far the organic kiwifruit growers assn has asked for a scientific trial that they will fund. I go to speak to the scientists on Monday. So hopefully next season something the bean counters can appreciate could arise. The local ag media including the industry journal is most interested and are awaiting copy. Just curious, what were you > peppering for? Passion Vine hopper. A small Australian import that sucks sap and excretes honeydew which grows a black sooty mould, which stains the hairy kiwis. Became a problem over the last two very dry seasons. And what does doing it "correctly" entail? There are a few stages in this and it is one area I take special notice of astro timing. We have added a couple of steps to the BDNZ 'normal' process and choose the potency according to the pest. Normal process is to burn, collect the ash and potentise in water to D8 and spread. While discussing peppering I wish to support Ian Bs comments on its use and dangers. A comment I have made several times myself, however the majority of the properties we are working with are changing over to organic or Garuda Biodynamic production as quickly as they can. I did comment before that an insect is an astral energetic niche crerated by an inbalance in the spiritual bodies interaction. I imagine it a little like the Astral energy falling out of its etheric carrier and forming a 'clump' upon which or in which the insect can survive. A little like calcium deposits forming in the human body. This astral energy has to be recombined into the 'spiritual fabric' for the pest to just disappear. This is what we are attempting with the Garuda pest preps with varying and interesting successes. Peppering does not address this spiritual body separation, so another insect will probably come and fill that space. We have had reports from an orchard which used the PVH pepper for 2.5 seasons now that she has cockroaches in her orchard in unusual numbers, not doing noticable damage though. We did a PVH Garuda prep as a trial on a few properties. The PVH did immediately move away in most cases. The disadvantage we see with this is it needs to be applied every three weeks or so, whereas the pepper described above was applied three times throughout the whole season. Given the growers good intentions towards organic production, the massive shift and sheer numbers of orchards changing over, the need for this changeover to succeed and the massive opportunity for a better world this offers, I am very willing to use peppering to help the process. These are desparate times and the time of the pureest has either gone or not yet arrived. I do not know about you but from where I stand, now is the moment and whatever it takes (within the BioGro/IFOAM standard) is OK by me. If our growers do not pay the mortgage they are not there next year and that is not an option. You know one of the advantages of the unethical, amoral, materialistic, capitialist system in which we live is that as long as it makes more $ they will do it. So lets make it pay. There is no excuse to not do organics. When an industry like our dairy industry is nose diving, with high costs, low returns and no calcium being applied to the soil then it is not all that difficult. That was when we got the breakthrough with the kiwifruit. I see a light in there somewhere. cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 3 12:25:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26483 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:25:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11377; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:14:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11101 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:12:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.236]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990603161445.CTZC8785947.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 04:14:45 +1200 Message-ID: <3756A9F9.F59@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 04:14:49 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Glen site access Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1066 Hi Alison I clicked on the path through your email and it worked fine. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 3 12:31:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26610 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:31:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11930; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11738 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:18:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.139.2] (max1-46.stc.net [208.210.131.46]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA28014 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:18:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <37544CA0.AFF7C843@ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:21:13 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Peppering questions Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1067 Anita Writes: > >I'm curious. I understood Mr. Rambler to say that he had NOT been >able to detect a difference due to peppering (at least not one that >could be separated from other possible causes, like use of "heaps of >compost"), and really I have not heard of anyone who can actually say >that peppering for whatever (weeds, rats, deer...) has had a >noticeable effect. And yet, bd'ers continue to keep the faith. >Ian's post both assumes peppering to be a valid weed eradication >approach AND that it is not really valid even theoretically since it >(presumably) treats a symptom rather than a cause. So, what's the >deal? I do believe it is Steiner himself that says that all science >starts with observation and questioning. So, I'm questioning, and >I'm asking what are the observations out there?? I have no doubt >that careful planting, good water managament, liberal use of high >quality compost, and planting in rotation and appropriate combination >can do wonders for fertility, health, and lowering of pest problems. >But I wonder where or if the hokus pokus of peppering is really >useful. Any comments? > > >Anita Graf >313-F Conner Hall >Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics >University of Georgia >Athens, GA 30602-7509 >(706) 542-1915 phone >(706) 542-0739 fax >agraf@agecon.uga.edu Dear Anita, Rambler, et. al., In regards to peppering, I've seen outstanding, immidiate results and what amounts to no positive or even negetaive results. I've peppered weeds, such as redroot pigweed, and had an explosion, while in peppering aphids, the next day I couldn't find any live specimens. So there's something to it, but I certainly don't know it all. I have a special problem with deer and raccoons. These are animals that travel over a large area--much larger than my farm. I've been encouraging Lorraine, my radionic specialist, to treat the whole watershed. She's understandabaly loath to treat beyond our property boundaries. What is the answer to this? At Koberwitz (site of the BD ag lectutres) the estate was so large that treatment for field mice was (presumably) very effective. But there is mention of the need to treat whole districts for eradication to be effective. I don't think anyone has yet been in position to run the experiments prooving this out. Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 3 13:28:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27857 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16648; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:17:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16441 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:13:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp203.cy-net.net [208.21.195.12]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01830 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:14:15 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEADBA.958CAF60@FLYLO>; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:14:09 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEADBA.958CAF60@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Bd calendar Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:57:15 -0500 Encoding: 13 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1068 Glen: Great way to look at it. I've been 'trying' to moon sign garden via old farmer's almanac, and I confess. it's a great way to get me out to pull weeds, mow, and other cultivation chores. But, when I've got seed in hand or transplants and the moon is in something 'chancy', I've had to go on and do it anyhow. I think used as a general guide, this simplified (OFA) is great. But, I would hate to miss out on planting something just because I couldn't be here during that 'window of opportunity'. As an old farmer once said, (asked the best time to castrate calves), when the knife is sharp and the calves are penned. martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 3 13:29:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27865 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16701; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:17:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16446 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:13:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp203.cy-net.net [208.21.195.12]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01841 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:14:19 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEADBA.97F09000@FLYLO>; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:14:13 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEADBA.97F09000@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: deer travel Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:09:57 -0500 Encoding: 19 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1069 Hugh wrote: < I have a special problem with deer and raccoons. These are animals that travel over a large area-much larger than my farm. I've been encouraging Lorraine, my radionic specialist, to treat the whole watershed. She's understandabaly loath to treat beyond our property boundaries. What is the answer to this?> I don't know about raccoons, but I'd suspect their forage / home range is even smaller. Deer usually don't leave over 1/4 - 1/2 mile from their point of birth. Mule deer and others may be different, but our little White Tail deer have been studied and found that they are pretty much home bodies in general. It's possible Lorraine could be convinced to treat the farms in your immediate area and see the results from that before treating the whole watershed. martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jun 4 00:16:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11763 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 00:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA29863; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 00:03:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtfm.midcoast.com (root@dns.midcoast.com [206.26.226.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24952 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jpt (liberty-c-003.midcoast.com [208.153.20.103]) by rtfm.midcoast.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA28854 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:24:39 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990603222459.007dcec0@midcoast.com> X-Sender: stgeorge@midcoast.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 22:24:59 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "John P. Thomas and Kathleen Barrett" Subject: Re: Sequences with Horn Clay - Correcting Errors In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1070 Dear Glen, Greg, Hugh, and others who make horn clay Putting a side the question of how and when to use horn clay, I would like some specific information about making it. I gather from what I read in Greg's post, it takes 6 months or 12 months to make the preps. I would like to get started on making the preps with the hope that by the time they are ready, I can determine (with BDNOW help) how and when to use them. What type of clay is used to fill the horns? Is the clay processed in any way before it is placed in the horns? How many units of the horn clay will be produced from each horn? Are the horns buried in the same way as other horn preps? What month in the spring and fall are the 12 month horn clays buried? When are the 6 month clays buried? Seems that I read in an earlier post from Glen about trituating and potentising horn clay. Is this a necessary part of the preparation? Is this a special application? Thanks, John St. George Farm Freedom, Maine, USA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jun 4 13:07:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA21321 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 13:07:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05091; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 12:54:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04948 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 12:52:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 12:52:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199906041652.MAA04948@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 3041 invoked from network); 4 Jun 1999 16:53:13 -0000 Received: from i48-21-20.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO DAVE) (216.26.7.20) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 1999 16:53:13 -0000 X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: OFF: Irradiated Food Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1071 ============================================================== Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project ============================================================== ACTION ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A VICTORY! BUT, MORE ACTION IS NEEDED THE COMMENT PERIOD TO THE FDA ON FOOD IRRADIATION HAS BEEN EXTENDED TO JULY 18, 1999! WRITE THE FDA AND CONGRESS TODAY!! TELL YOUR FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME! CIRCULATE This E-MAIL! The comment period for the proposed Food and Drug Administration (FDA) rule that allows manufacturers to sell irradiated food without any labeling requirements to warn consumers has been extended to July 18th. Agribusiness and the nuclear industry are pressing to label irradiated foods under the heading "cold pasteurization." MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD Tell the FDA and Congress: - food treated with radiation must continue to be clearly labeled with the radura (the international symbol for irradiated food) and a statement indicating it was treated with radiation. - the absence of such a statement would be misleading because irradiation destroys vitamins and causes changes in sensory and spoilage qualities that are not obvious or expected by the consumer. - irradiation creates a new class of unique Radiolytic products that have never been tested for the possible carcinogenic effects on humans - the irradiation process creates new volumes of radioactive waste from Cobalt-60 and Cesium which will plague our nation; exposing workers to toxic radionuclides when we haven't a clue as to what to do with the nuclear waste we already have. Please DO NOT write a general statement opposing food irradiation; unfortunately, it has already been approved thanks to pressure from Agribusiness and the Nuclear Industry on Congress. You must demand that such foods be clearly labeled. Also request that public comments be placed on the Internet so the public can be informed about who is participating. (SEE SAMPLE LETTER) If we can generate enough letters to maintain labeling, then despite the government approval for this process, we will be able to avoid buying irradiated products--but only if we know which foods have been irradiated based on honest, clear labeling. When writing, refer to Docket #98N-1038 "Irradiation in the Production, Processing, and Handling of Food." Send comments before July 18th to: Dockets Management Branch (HFA-305) Food and Drug Administration 5630 Fishers Lane, Room 1061 Rockville MD 20852 or Send an email to: FDADockets@oc.fda.gov and/or FDADockets@fda.gov (Put Docket #98N-1038 in the subject line) SAMPLE LETTER TO FDA: Dockets Management Branch (HFA-305) Food and Drug Administration 5630 Fishers Lane, Room 1061 Rockville, Maryland 20852 Re: Docket No. 98N-1038, "Irradiation in the Production, Processing, and Handling of Food" To whom it may concern: I am extremely concerned about the prospect of weakening the labeling requirements for irradiated food. Any foods, or any foods containing ingredients that have been treated by irradiation, should be clearly labeled with a written statement on the principal display panel indicating such treatment. The statement should be easy to read and placed in close proximity to the name of the food and accompanied by the radura, the international symbol of irradiated food. If the food is not packaged, this information should be clearly displayed on a poster in plain view and adjacent to where the product is displayed for sale. Like other labels, irradiation labels are required by the FDA to be truthful and not misleading. I believe that the terms "treated with radiation" or "treated by irradiation" should be retained. Any phrase involving the word "pasteurization" is misleading because pasteurization is an entirely different process of rapid heating and cooling. I recognize the radura as information regarding a material fact of food processing. The requirement for irradiation disclosure (both label and radura) should not expire at any time in the future. The material fact of processing remains. Even if some consumers become familiar with the radura, new consumers (e.g., young people, immigrants) will not be. The symbol should be clearly understandable at the point of purchase for everyone. If there is no label, consumers will be misled into believing the food has not been irradiated. Sincerely, SAMPLE LETTER TO YOUR REPRESENTATIVE AND SENATORS To A SENATOR: The Honorable [ ] Washington, D.C. 20510 To A REPRESENTATIVE: The Honorable [ ] Washington, DC 20515 Dear Senator or Representative [ ], I have recently been made aware of a disturbing development at the Food and Drug Administration as regards the labeling of irradiated foods. Under pressure from food manufacturers and supporters of the nuclear industry, the FDA is considering a rule that would remove labeling requirements for foods treated with radiation. The public only has until July 18, 1999 to voice its objections to this rule. Currently, any food treated with radiation during the production process is labeled with a symbol known as a radura (the international symbol for irradiated foods) and either a statement saying "treated with radiation" or "treated by irradiation." The rule before the FDA would allow manufacturers to sell any and all irradiated foods to the consumer with nary a mention of the use of radiation during processing. This is bad for consumers. Despite the fact that the FDA has determined that radiation is safe for food, many consumers, do not want to eat foods treated with radiation. Radiation changes the texture, taste, nutritional value, and chemical composition of foods. Radiation creates a heretofore unseen class of unique radiolytic products that have never been tested for their possible carcinogenic effects on humans. Furthermore, there are no long-term studies on the health effects of irradiated food. This is a clear-cut issue of consumers having the right-to-know what is in their food and how the food is processed. We know what the fat, protein, carbohydrate, and vitamin content is in our food, why should we not know whether our food has been treated with radiation emanating from some of the most deadly substances known to man? Please write a letter to the FDA asking them to continue requiring that irradiated food is clearly labeled. Enclosed you will find the letter that I wrote to the FDA about this issue Sincerely, Kieran Clifford Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project 202-546-4996, ext.324 Visit our website: http://www.citizen.org/cmep ====================================================== Questions about the CMEP-list can be directed to cmep@citizen.org ======================================================== ======================== David Robison Stellar Processes From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jun 4 15:06:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA23932 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 15:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15423; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 14:54:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15328 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 14:53:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp60.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.160]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA27071 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 13:51:02 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <003d01beaebb$6f8bc1a0$a04b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: Subject: BD calendar Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 13:52:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1072 Anita wrote: > As a one-time bd apprentice and general ag enthusiast, I have to > comment that I believe getting so worked up over specific calender > days is a lot of stress for little reason. The first bit of evidence > is that conventional farmers pay absolutely NO heed to any of this > stuff, and yet they produce food. The evidence that conventional farmers produce food without acknowledging cosmic or other unseen forces does not support the notion that those environmental elements are insignificant or non-existent. I think that we can agree that the quantity of product has become the measure of success rather than quality. The newly coined "sustainable agriculture" seems to be the recognition of conventional farming's lack at best, & more accurately, a downright diseased & UNsustainable state. Interestingly, the unsustainability/disease seems to manifest down through the product itself. When I used to stop at McD's for a quick burger at lunch hour, I remember that I would almost immediately suffer a weird "mucus" attack, as if my very tissues were fending off an actual illness! And of course, being hungry again within the hour...unsustaining nourishment. Oddly, this works its way up the chain as well - I'm thinking of the state of the economy & the health of our moral, emotional & physical on a collective level. Our bodies are sick, our kids are shooting each other, families fragmented, and we have placed value on money over all else. Clearly, someone is missing the boat here...I say its conventional, and to a lesser degree, organic agriculture. So the evidence really supports a different idea...that by their ignoring of cosmic influences (working up from the earth, and down through the atmosphere) they are able to produce something, but it is only an inferior, and increasingly dangerous (e.g., GE) product. The organic farmers seem to be getting the mechanics right, but have not yet reached the next body of knowledge. This is where BD parts from conventional or even organic agriculture. >Ok, you could argue that there's > something spiritually different or at least less efficient to this > planting strategy, but that is at the very most quite subtle. And that's exactly the point. The recognition of the subtle. That's what the BD'ers speak of, recognize & practice. The subtle this, the subtle that. To me, its the point on which BD stands apart from the rest. Funny, its like homeopathy...the more you dilute, the more you potentize, the stronger the effect (Now THIS is a hard one for me...that Less-is-More...but growing up in a More-is-Better society, well, naturally we would struggle with this concept) >The > next bit of evidence is that there is not even any concensus among bd > farmers. Nor among conventional farmers, organic farmers (and their certifiers), or any other field of endeavor...medicine, law, science, religeon (and astrology especially!) >On the CSA garden > where I apprenticed, for example, the head gardener religiously towed > the bd line in almost all respects (made his own beautiful preps, > made a ceremony out of almost everything, we read the calender of the > soul every morning, studied RS lectures, etc.) and yet the only > planting rhythm he regularly paid attention to was the full moon. There is a wonderful article by Heinz Grotzke in the Nov/Dec 98 issue of Biodynamics. Where he discusses his study of weather & the cosmic forces. He calls the moon his first mentor. The method you describe of full moon planting is a great starting place. But I think it's comparable to building a foundation...you can't understand Emerson until you learn to read. Once I heard a biodynamic expert say that using the calendar is a wonderful beginning place. It makes you aware. For those of us who cannot "tune in" to the proper times to perform certain farming tasks, it provides a roadmap. It is a effort in correcting the very bad habit of our non-awareness of the environment. For example, obviously you have to cut hay when its sunny/dry. Seeing that the weather is nice, you fire up the haybine. But what you also need to know, is whether or not you are going to have dry weather for the next 3 or 4 days...so the hay will cure properly, dry & give you time to bale it. If you see that you will be entering a leaf/water period (during the days after cutting) well, perhaps its best to wait. So use of the calendar is supplemental to a visual assessment of proper timing. It does not replace intuition, only supports it, (and for those of us still learning to listen to our intuition, guides it) >We > always planted (into the beds, not the greenhouse) two days before > the full moon. Flower, leaf, and root work took place as needed when > possible without consulting Maria Thun or anyone else. And the year > I worked there, the garden was fabulously successful -- generous, > overflowing baskets for 40 shares all year long on 2 acres. No doubt about it...BD is fabulous stuff. And this farm is successful, generous, overflowing, all those words are terms of quantity. I would like to know about the quality...could you tell the difference between the BD produce and the rest? There was discussion sometime back about testing & proving the qualitive superiority of BD food. I half-heartedly wish that science would develop a "concrete" bonafide way of showing this. But that will only happen when it becomes profitable to someone (so they will fund the research). As long as BD remains in the hands of believers, rather than mega-agri corps, well, it will never be acknowledged/supported by modern profit-based & supported science. Perhaps the art is better served by its lack of recognition...once conventional ag heard about organic farming's Bt, they were cutting & splicing & serving it up to us in our corn! A pilfered & raped natural defense now rendered useless in organic farming. I wonder how they would disfigure BD?! > As you can tell from my posts, I struggle between awe and admiration > and harump- scepticism when it comes to bd. And what a great place to be...standing on the threshold between the seen & the unseen...just a step away! >There is no question in > my mind that the bd farms I have visited are among the best farms I > have ever seen. So you see this part, but question whether it is simply the compost... >I often thought as an apprentice > that the huge amounts of good compost we consistently put everywhere > must have made success inevitable regardless of all the ceremonial > stirrings, preppings, pepperings, etc. Surely you've also visited organic farms at which compost is also a critical element...did you see a difference in their farms compared to BD farms? >I can say with certainty in > my mind that there is at least A LOT of flexibility and subtlty at > work here. I just can't believe that there is a magic formula that > if you just plant, water, weed, cultivate, etc. in exactly the right > moment in exactly the order, you reach an agricultural state of > Nirvana. There probably IS a magic formula in which to reach Ag-Nirvana, but we just haven't figured it out yet. We're just infants and you have to start somewhere...god knows modern ag & science haven't done it. Maybe the BD'ers are closer. >Of course I could be wrong, but it just doesn't seem worth > it to me to get so neurotic about all these things. Surly the best > tool you have is your intuition along with your critical faculties of > observation and experimentation. I think "neurotic" is a pretty strong term, suggestive of mental/emotional disorder. Perhaps the actual disorder lies in ignoring or minimizing that which we cannot see. Surely we must recognize that no invention, no improvement, no discovery or great truth has not first gone through the fires of ridicule upon presentation to the common masses (even down to the earth's shape!) Isn't it funny though, we are such hypocrites...we laugh at those great men...and when they've gone, we use their quotes in our email signatures! > I have a lull in my work at the moment, so I had some time to write > these thoughts. Hope I haven't offended anyone. You are trying to understand it...that's an important place to be. The key is keeping an open mind. I think that looking for the validity of BD, rather than the scientific proof (or disproof), which you have to dig for...is where you will find the answer...they say that when the student is ready the teacher appears...perhaps that's where you are at. Let the "awe and admiration" lead you & leave the "harump-scepticism" behind, you can always go back if it doesn't serve you! :-) A fellow student, Julie PS. You might get yourself a calendar...just to check it out. I even experimented comparing farmer's almanac-style planting vs. bd calendar planting...yup, they're different! I enjoy the weather part the most. Is it really going to rain on a leaf day? For me, it did...most of the time. Even with its "glitches", I see this as supporting rather than disproving...that we understand part of it, but not all of it just yet. In fact, I found that Mr. Weather on nightly news had a worse accuracy rate than Stella Natura! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 5 09:07:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06585 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 09:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA28622; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 08:49:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA28560 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 08:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp234.cy-net.net [208.21.195.43]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA14771 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 07:48:12 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEAF27.65A8CFE0@FLYLO>; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 07:45:35 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEAF27.65A8CFE0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: beautifully done (flowform) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 07:45:27 -0500 Encoding: 30 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1073 I ran a search on flowforms and (besides a ton of kite sites) came up with some very interesting and useful web sites on flow form water 'inspiration'. This one, in particular is fascinating, and an overall remarkable site: http://www.danwinter.com/water/water.html I do have a question: A comment about the 7 fold floform stated that polluntant solids drop out of the fluid due to the long and short wave forms merging, interacting. Due to a lack of imagination on my part, I'm supposing that the end of the fall (or series) would result in healthy water. So, how do you deal with and collect the eliminated polluntant solids? Turn it off? Scrape the bowls? Let it collect? wouldn't that change the dynamics of the water itself if sediment is allowed to build in the stream path? (Talking about use in a garden setting here.) Another one does list kits, pricing, weights, etc. but they don't have a mailing address. (And tho renamed, their forms look remarkably like some of the original, and that would bother me.) This one does NOT credit any originators, however. I don't know if it's London, or Maine, or closer. I'd like to see one in operation in Texas, does anyone know off hand if there is a biodynamic center or someone using a flow form set up in this state? martha History: Sometime in the next couple of years we'll be building a better barn with living quarters (house actually). John has always wanted a Jacuzzi tub, and we've included plans for a deck with a tub. I don't know how to apply this just yet, but would love to have a rockfall with flow form cascading and cleansing the water leading to (or from) the tub. The 7 fold has a vaguely feminine, erotic look to it, and it's both of our favorites. martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 5 11:13:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07366 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 11:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03870; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 10:55:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03679 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 10:52:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.14.203]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sat, 5 Jun 1999 15:53:52 +0100 Message-ID: <3757F887.1265@cwcom.net> Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 17:02:15 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Peppering questions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1074 Anita - I share your scepticism about incomplete anecdotal evidence and I have no reliable details to add, but I could just mention that pulling docks usually leaves a substantial part of the root behind, unless the ground is extremely soft (the field we saw is well-drained); root pieces freely re-shoot and docks also shed seed freely (I don't know if they were pulled before or after the seed-heads matured and maybe we missed seeing small seedlings). By mid-June (time of the course) dock plants are well-developed and very visible; they're not greatly affected by minor climatic changes. The field is used for rough-ish grazing and would have received no further treatment other than, perhaps, some muck-spreading. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 5 18:38:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11309 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 18:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA24167; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 18:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24100 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 18:25:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.139.2] (max12-18.stc.net [208.210.136.146]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA04385 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 18:25:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BEADBA.97F09000@FLYLO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 18:28:23 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: deer travel Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1075 >Hugh wrote: >< I have a special problem with deer and raccoons. These are animals that >travel over a large area-much larger than my farm. I've been encouraging >Lorraine, my radionic specialist, to treat the whole watershed. She's >understandabaly loath to treat beyond our property boundaries. What is the >answer to this?> > >I don't know about raccoons, but I'd suspect their forage / home range is >even smaller. Deer usually don't leave over 1/4 - 1/2 mile from their point >of birth. Mule deer and others may be different, but our little White Tail >deer have been studied and found that they are pretty much home bodies in >general. >It's possible Lorraine could be convinced to treat the farms in your >immediate area and see the results from that before treating the whole >watershed. >martha Dear Martha, My watershed here (Southern Appalachians) probably isn't much more than a half mile radius in most dimensions. And coons travel the creeks and branches and can go farther than you might think--at least throughout most of the watercourses in my watershed. But with an aerial photo from the Ag service it would be easy to treat. Most of the area is national forest. The main question is what are the ethics? Best, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 7 03:25:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA00068 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 03:25:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA10161; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 03:07:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA09994 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 03:04:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-022.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.122]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA13833 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 19:04:25 +1200 Message-ID: <002101beb0b1$feb494e0$7af631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: Bd calendar Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 18:50:10 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1076 Dear Glen et al, Yes I agree, having spent nearly 15 tears working with the calendar I have found that if one sticks too rigidly one can become unstuck. eg haymaking etc. I like the picture of the weather being closer to the earth than the planets and constellations. I might add though, that we work closely with the calendar as a starting point. Cheers Gareth -----Original Message----- From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, 4 June 1999 04:15 AM Subject: Bd calendar >Pam >I support Anita stance on this one. The job is better done on the >'wrong' day than not done at all. If you can do the Thun thing then >great, otherwise use what you can and go by the weather. Afterall it is >the weather that filters the moon and planetary stuff before it gets to >the plant. One of the realities I try to convey in my diagrams is the >layered ness of creation, each layer effects those around it but mostly >the ones below influence the way the ones above manifest. The weather is >closer to us than the moon. > >cheers > >Glen A. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 7 14:02:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA10384 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 14:02:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15440; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:51:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15179 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:48:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp53.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.153]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA13667 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 12:45:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <000701beb10d$d5340540$994b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: <002101beb0b1$feb494e0$7af631ca@computer> Subject: Re: Bd calendar Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 12:47:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1077 Dear Gareth, Wow! 15 years of calendar loyalty - now there's a testimonial! As a fledgling BD farmer, this was what I hope to gain from this thread, in response to Pam's questions, an experienced farmer/gardener sharing his/her observations resulting from direct experience with the calendar. It is very difficult to learn BD alone & the guidance of experts is most important. (Gosh, reading back, what damage we could do without that advice!!) Would you tell us what you've seen to be the strengths & weaknesses of the calendar? (And yes, please do discuss your haymaking...we lost quite a bit of our crop last year, as against the calendar recommendation, we cut hay preceding a leaf period, and subsequently, watched it rot in the fields...perhaps a fluke, but come winter, sure makes one wonder!) For our farm, the calendar will be an important tool until it proves itself unreliable (or we become adepts at weather forecasting!). Obviously, weather is the first consideration, but we hope to go beyond that a bit, expanding our awareness of the cycles & rhythms of our environment here. And my understanding of the original question, was...Do we stimulate, for example, the leaf forces when we till or work the soil, as well as when we plant the seed, or transplant? (as in the garden) and should both those activities be considered? Is one activity more important than the other? Anxiously awaiting your observations! Fondly, Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: Gareth and Yvonne Bodle To: Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 1:50 AM Subject: Re: Bd calendar > Dear Glen et al, > Yes I agree, having spent nearly 15 tears working with the calendar I have > found that if one sticks too rigidly one can become unstuck. eg haymaking > etc. > I like the picture of the weather being closer to the earth than the planets > and constellations. > I might add though, that we work closely with the calendar as a starting > point. > Cheers > Gareth From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 7 14:59:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12234 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 14:59:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20343; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 14:42:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20292 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 14:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.161.174]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990607184237.NAAT8654004.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 06:42:37 +1200 Message-ID: <375C128E.6AD4@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 06:42:23 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: BD Calendar - Julie Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1078 > Wow! 15 years of calendar loyalty - now there's a testimonial! As a > fledgling BD farmer, this was what I hope to gain from this thread, in > response to Pam's questions, an experienced > farmer/gardener sharing his/her observations resulting from direct > experience with the calendar. Julie Did I have to write "after 23 years experience farming & gardening with the calendar" for you to take my advice seriously???????? Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 7 15:16:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA12687 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 15:16:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22268; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 15:02:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22055 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 15:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.172]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990607190252.NCOC8654004.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 07:02:52 +1200 Message-ID: <375C174E.36BE@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 07:02:38 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Interesting info of dubious reality Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1079 For whatever it is worth Notes on Wesak 1999 Drunvalo Melchizedek: God-consciousness Water: some Sufi masters in Turkey who had been chanting powerful chants over water realized they had created water that is alive and has God-consciousness. The water has different effects on different things. It seems to choose to have the optimal effect on whatever it touches. They used it in the most polluted bay in the world…black with black bubbles and it became totally clear with a few days. Unfortunately the channels coming into the bay continue to pollute it. Drunvalo had just come from a meeting with top FBI, CIA etc in Washington where they did experiments with this water and it did in fact clear away the most disgusting pollution (human waste and oil) in glass containers very quickly with only 1 teaspoon of the Alive water. They also did experiments with huge ponds of water where one was left alone as a control with the same results. This water also put out chemical and petrochemical fires and methane fires at fill sites that nothing had put out before….and there seemed to be no way to restart the fires afterward. Some environmentalist scientists at the meeting said if a miracle like this had not come along, the earth would be dead within 3 years due to pollution. The best news is that the military were in attendance and are willing to allow this to become widespread. The world govts are going to encourage all local govts to use this water. If anyone has local govt contacts, email Drunvalo via www.drunvalo.net for contacts. The Sufi master who is starting a plant in Istanbul is called Ihan Duyuk, and the co will be called Perfect Science. This water is called super-ionized water and has 3 extra electrons. Exceptional water is beng found naturally occurring now also in many places, one is at Talacote, close to Mexico City. There are 5 other miracles that have been happening: In China, a little 4 yr old boy was found who was 100% psychic. Then they found lots of kids in China like this. Then they found them all over the world. Initial tests are recorded in the Jan 85 issue of Omni magazine. Now adults are beginning to share this phenomenon. 2 books: "Super Psychics of China" and "Indigo Children" by Lee Carroll. 5) 10-11 years ago, children of parents with AIDS were found to have AIDS until they were 5-6 years old, and then they were both AIDS and HIV free. Their DNA is not human. They have 4 extra nucleic acids, and Codons, the same math as in the I Ching (64 I believe is base). One child tested had 24 nucleic acids …we have 20). This child was found to be immune to all diseases. They put his live cells in a petrie dish and dumped 10,000 times the normal amount of AIDS etc needed to infect with no affect. UCLA estimates that 1% of the children now have these nucleic acids and it is rising fast, with adults following. These kids do not appear to notice any difference between their inner and outer worlds...they exhibit no judgment. "Cracking Bible Code" by Jeffrey "Safenoner" p 156 states that AIDS will herald the end of all disease. "Walking Between the Worlds" by Greg Braeden has some research about these children. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 7 15:23:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA12890 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 15:23:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23023; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 15:12:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22838 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 15:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp43.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.143]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA29907 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 14:06:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00c501beb119$21d10dc0$994b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: <375C128E.6AD4@xtra.co.nz> Subject: Re: BD Calendar - Julie Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 14:08:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1080 Oh no Glen!! And you should know that YOU are the first I think of when it comes to questions of an astrological nature! Certainly no slight was intended...I should have started my post..."Dear Gareth & Glen". Of course we all know that you are the brightest star in the universe of astrology! Your MOST devoted fan! :-) Julie PS...I still carry your Saturn post with me...especially enlightening during those seemingly difficult transits! Is one of the highlights of my astro-education! ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage To: Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 1:42 PM Subject: BD Calendar - Julie > > Wow! 15 years of calendar loyalty - now there's a testimonial! As a > > fledgling BD farmer, this was what I hope to gain from this thread, in > > response to Pam's questions, an experienced > > farmer/gardener sharing his/her observations resulting from direct > > experience with the calendar. > > Julie > Did I have to write "after 23 years experience farming & gardening with > the calendar" for you to take my advice seriously???????? > > Glen A. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 7 18:30:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA17381 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 18:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08263; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 18:14:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.clarityconnect.com (smtp.clarityconnect.com [206.64.143.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08197 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 18:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from clarityconnect.com (206.64.143.5) by smtp.clarityconnect.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.3d2); Mon, 7 Jun 1999 18:14:02 -0400 Received: from dharner.clarityconnect.com (209.150.224.27) by clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.3d2); Mon, 7 Jun 1999 18:09:48 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990607180954.006c5f1c@clarityconnect.com> X-Sender: dharner@clarityconnect.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 18:09:56 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, ourhouse@nb.net From: Don Harner Subject: Re: OFF: Interesting info of dubious reality Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id SAA08198 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1081 What do you think of this? Emma At 07:02 AM 6/8/99 +1200, you wrote: >For whatever it is worth > > Notes on Wesak 1999 > >Drunvalo Melchizedek: > >God-consciousness Water: some Sufi masters in Turkey who had been >chanting powerful chants over water realized they had created water that >is alive and has God-consciousness. The water has different effects on >different things. It seems to choose to have the optimal effect on >whatever it touches. They used it in the most polluted bay in the >world…black with black bubbles and it became totally clear with a few >days. Unfortunately the channels coming into the bay continue to >pollute it. Drunvalo had just come from a meeting with top FBI, CIA etc >in Washington where they did experiments with this water and it did in >fact clear away the most disgusting pollution (human waste and oil) in >glass containers very quickly with only 1 teaspoon of the Alive water. >They also did experiments with huge ponds of water where one was left >alone as a control with the same results. This water also put out >chemical and petrochemical fires and methane fires at fill sites that >nothing had put out before….and there seemed to be no way to restart the >fires afterward. Some environmentalist scientists at the meeting said >if a miracle like this had not come along, the earth would be dead >within 3 years due to pollution. The best news is that the military >were in attendance and are willing to allow this to become widespread. >The world govts are going to encourage all local govts to use this >water. If anyone has local govt contacts, email Drunvalo via >www.drunvalo.net for contacts. The Sufi master who is starting a plant >in Istanbul is called Ihan Duyuk, and the co will be called Perfect >Science. This water is called super-ionized water and has 3 extra >electrons. Exceptional water is beng found naturally occurring now >also in many places, one is at Talacote, close to Mexico City. > >There are 5 other miracles that have been happening: > >In China, a little 4 yr old boy was found who was 100% psychic. Then >they found lots of kids in China like this. Then they found them all >over the world. Initial tests are recorded in the Jan 85 issue of Omni >magazine. Now adults are beginning to share this phenomenon. 2 books: >"Super Psychics of China" and "Indigo Children" by Lee Carroll. >5) 10-11 years ago, children of parents with AIDS were found to have >AIDS until they were 5-6 years old, and then they were both AIDS and HIV >free. Their DNA is not human. They have 4 extra nucleic acids, and >Codons, the same math as in the I Ching (64 I believe is base). One >child tested had 24 nucleic acids …we have 20). This child was found to >be immune to all diseases. They put his live cells in a petrie dish and >dumped 10,000 times the normal amount of AIDS etc needed to infect with >no affect. UCLA estimates that 1% of the children now have these >nucleic acids and it is rising fast, with adults following. These kids >do not appear to notice any difference between their inner and outer >worlds...they exhibit no judgment. "Cracking Bible Code" by Jeffrey >"Safenoner" p 156 states that AIDS will herald the end of all disease. >"Walking Between the Worlds" by Greg Braeden has some research about >these children. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 7 18:30:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA17389 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 18:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08298; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 18:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.clarityconnect.com (smtp.clarityconnect.com [206.64.143.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08209 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 18:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from clarityconnect.com (206.64.143.5) by smtp.clarityconnect.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.3d2); Mon, 7 Jun 1999 18:14:16 -0400 Received: from dharner.clarityconnect.com (209.150.224.27) by clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.3d2); Mon, 7 Jun 1999 18:10:11 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990607181018.006c5f1c@clarityconnect.com> X-Sender: dharner@clarityconnect.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 18:10:20 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, hematite@pacbell.net From: Don Harner Subject: Re: OFF: Interesting info of dubious reality Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id SAA08210 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1082 At 07:02 AM 6/8/99 +1200, you wrote: >For whatever it is worth > > Notes on Wesak 1999 > >Drunvalo Melchizedek: > >God-consciousness Water: some Sufi masters in Turkey who had been >chanting powerful chants over water realized they had created water that >is alive and has God-consciousness. The water has different effects on >different things. It seems to choose to have the optimal effect on >whatever it touches. They used it in the most polluted bay in the >world…black with black bubbles and it became totally clear with a few >days. Unfortunately the channels coming into the bay continue to >pollute it. Drunvalo had just come from a meeting with top FBI, CIA etc >in Washington where they did experiments with this water and it did in >fact clear away the most disgusting pollution (human waste and oil) in >glass containers very quickly with only 1 teaspoon of the Alive water. >They also did experiments with huge ponds of water where one was left >alone as a control with the same results. This water also put out >chemical and petrochemical fires and methane fires at fill sites that >nothing had put out before….and there seemed to be no way to restart the >fires afterward. Some environmentalist scientists at the meeting said >if a miracle like this had not come along, the earth would be dead >within 3 years due to pollution. The best news is that the military >were in attendance and are willing to allow this to become widespread. >The world govts are going to encourage all local govts to use this >water. If anyone has local govt contacts, email Drunvalo via >www.drunvalo.net for contacts. The Sufi master who is starting a plant >in Istanbul is called Ihan Duyuk, and the co will be called Perfect >Science. This water is called super-ionized water and has 3 extra >electrons. Exceptional water is beng found naturally occurring now >also in many places, one is at Talacote, close to Mexico City. > >There are 5 other miracles that have been happening: > >In China, a little 4 yr old boy was found who was 100% psychic. Then >they found lots of kids in China like this. Then they found them all >over the world. Initial tests are recorded in the Jan 85 issue of Omni >magazine. Now adults are beginning to share this phenomenon. 2 books: >"Super Psychics of China" and "Indigo Children" by Lee Carroll. >5) 10-11 years ago, children of parents with AIDS were found to have >AIDS until they were 5-6 years old, and then they were both AIDS and HIV >free. Their DNA is not human. They have 4 extra nucleic acids, and >Codons, the same math as in the I Ching (64 I believe is base). One >child tested had 24 nucleic acids …we have 20). This child was found to >be immune to all diseases. They put his live cells in a petrie dish and >dumped 10,000 times the normal amount of AIDS etc needed to infect with >no affect. UCLA estimates that 1% of the children now have these >nucleic acids and it is rising fast, with adults following. These kids >do not appear to notice any difference between their inner and outer >worlds...they exhibit no judgment. "Cracking Bible Code" by Jeffrey >"Safenoner" p 156 states that AIDS will herald the end of all disease. >"Walking Between the Worlds" by Greg Braeden has some research about >these children. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 7 23:49:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA22403 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 23:49:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA00795; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 23:35:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inovion.com (root@solo.inovion.com [216.172.181.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA29921 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 23:25:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tom (s07.cs00.inovion.com [216.172.181.139]) by inovion.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA02865 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 03:33:06 GMT (envelope-from wikstrom@inovion.com) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990607212757.0096b39c@inovion.com> X-Sender: wikstrom@inovion.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 21:27:57 -0600 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Tom Wikstrom Subject: how do I get off this list, please. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1083 I would like to unsubscribe from this list, please. Could you please tell me how to do it? I have sent an email with UNSUBSCRIBE WIKSTROM@INOVION.COM in the body and I am still receiving postings to the list. Please advise. Thanks Tom Wikstrom, Happy Trowels Farm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 8 05:31:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA25765 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 05:31:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA15729; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 05:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA15594 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 05:11:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-058.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.158]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12541 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:12:05 +1200 Message-ID: <003601beb18c$fbf7a040$9ef631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: NZBDA AGM Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 20:57:48 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01BEB1F1.9073DEA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1084 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BEB1F1.9073DEA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Glen, The computor broke down the other week so I could not reply to you query = re the AGM date. Apparently it was set to fit in with Mystery Creek Fielddays. BD was = first; then Biogro set the date for the same reason. I understand = neither membership has complained- probably more a reflection of the = state of NZ organics than the clash itself! Content- As you are probably aware now Dr MacGregor will be reporting on = the BD?Conventional paired farm trial, and Dr Stafford (possibly) on = Animal Health work he has done. Are you going? By the way, thanks for the info on Zespri... The GE meeting in Kerikeri = had 350 people..a per capita record for a public meeting in NZ! Dont follow you Calendar post...I always listen to what people say about = the calendar,thats what I find so interesting about it. Have a good day Glen Cheers Gareth ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BEB1F1.9073DEA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Glen,
The computor broke down the other = week so I=20 could not reply to you query re the AGM date.
Apparently it was set to fit in with = Mystery=20 Creek Fielddays. BD was first; then Biogro set the date for the same = reason. I=20 understand neither membership has complained- probably more a reflection = of the=20 state of NZ organics than the clash itself!
 
Content- As you are probably aware = now Dr=20 MacGregor will be reporting on the BD?Conventional paired farm trial, = and Dr=20 Stafford (possibly) on Animal Health work he has done.
 
Are you going?
By the way, thanks for the info on = Zespri... The=20 GE meeting in Kerikeri had 350 people..a per capita record for a public = meeting=20 in NZ!
 
Dont follow you Calendar post...I = always listen=20 to what people say about the calendar,thats  what I find so = interesting=20 about it.
Have a good day Glen
Cheers
Gareth
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BEB1F1.9073DEA0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 8 05:37:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA25818 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 05:37:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA15963; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 05:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA15877 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 05:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-058.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.158]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12185 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:02:54 +1200 Message-ID: <002f01beb18b$e09e6500$9ef631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: Bd calendar Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 20:48:03 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1085 Dear Julie, I have never seen it as "loyalty" to the calendar, but rather a process of learning and understanding. Whilst predicting the weather seems to be irresistable to all of us, I believe it is short sighted to believe that is the main thing one can find in the calendar. Planetary influences on weather tend to be interpreted or mediated by local geography and conditions. I have found that the calendar can produce "models" of the season or year, or specific processes contained in the season or year. I also find the moon through the constellations very interesting, relating to Goethes metamorphisis of plants, wherein one can begin to find some practical basis for using 501 with the moon and constellations. For haymaking I prefer Asc moon in flower, next preference would be Asc moon in seed, or desc moon in flower. Having determined these I would endeavour to avoid full moon, try and include moon opp Saturn, and avoid rain! I always put 501 on AM Asc leaf @ 10 days prior to cutting (going anticlockwise so any laid down grass is laying onto the cutter bar) Afterwards the paddocks get full prep treatment a la Pfieffer but more latterly sequential spraying. Having read some postings by others eg Glen who have a stromger astrological background than I, I am coming of the view that the BD Calendar develops a rather empirical approach to planetary/cosmic influences that is consistant with modern practice (ie Steiners "There needs to be a science of these things") In other words it is merely a modern development of a very traditional awareness of the workings of nature. Therefore the calendar has its own limitations and potentials within its own unique context. One should always look for the practical use of it ("In the truly practical we will find the truly spiritual...") and if one tries to find more or less than the practical one may be disappointed. Much of my approach to sharing the calendar with others is helping point to how one may find ones own answers rather than "tell" my own ideas. Afterall I have seen many people achieve equal sucess with different interpretations and models, thus understanding is as important as recipe in my view. Hope this is of help, Gareth. -----Original Message----- From: Julie To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, 8 June 1999 05:53 AM Subject: Re: Bd calendar >Dear Gareth, > >Wow! 15 years of calendar loyalty - now there's a testimonial! As a >fledgling BD farmer, this was what I hope to gain from this thread, in >response to Pam's questions, an experienced >farmer/gardener sharing his/her observations resulting from direct >experience with the calendar. It is very difficult to learn BD alone & the >guidance of experts is most important. (Gosh, reading back, what damage we >could do without that advice!!) > >Would you tell us what you've seen to be the strengths & weaknesses >of the calendar? (And yes, please do discuss your haymaking...we lost quite >a bit of our crop last year, as against the calendar recommendation, we cut >hay preceding a leaf period, and subsequently, watched it rot in the >fields...perhaps a fluke, but come winter, sure makes one wonder!) For our >farm, the calendar >will be an important tool until it proves itself unreliable (or we become >adepts at weather forecasting!). Obviously, weather is the first >consideration, but we hope to >go beyond that a bit, expanding our awareness of the cycles & rhythms of our >environment here. > >And my understanding of the original question, was...Do we stimulate, for >example, the leaf forces when we till or work the soil, as well as when we >plant the >seed, or transplant? (as in the garden) and should both those activities be >considered? Is one activity more important than the other? > >Anxiously awaiting your observations! > >Fondly, > >Julie > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Gareth and Yvonne Bodle >To: >Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 1:50 AM >Subject: Re: Bd calendar > > >> Dear Glen et al, >> Yes I agree, having spent nearly 15 tears working with the calendar I have >> found that if one sticks too rigidly one can become unstuck. eg haymaking >> etc. >> I like the picture of the weather being closer to the earth than the >planets >> and constellations. >> I might add though, that we work closely with the calendar as a starting >> point. >> Cheers >> Gareth > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 8 10:20:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29637 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00977; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:06:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00535 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp20.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.120]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA12114 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:59:23 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <014c01beb1b7$5906c520$784b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: <002f01beb18b$e09e6500$9ef631ca@computer> Subject: Re: Bd calendar Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 09:01:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1086 Dear Gareth, Thank you for this most useful post. We will try to follow your recommendations for haymaking, as your experience truly "rounds out", details & clarifies the calendar's recommendations (as I said, its merely a roadmap). Glen has also helped clarify some concepts I need help grasping, regarding the various forces & their natures...I believe he may be sharing some of that with all of us soon... So, yes, the calendar is a learning tool and the best way to understand our individual local areas is to take notes & observe the patterns, correlations. A grower must develope a sense of their land & its climate & character, and individualize the calendar for their particular place. I have the utmost faith in those who have gone before. There is no wisdom greater than that gained from experience. Those who possess it, are served as much as those who seek the knowledge, if the exchange occurs. (One of my favorite sayings..."you can't keep it, until you give it away") Most grateful for all the insights on this topic, (and yes, it is of great help! Thank you) Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: Gareth and Yvonne Bodle To: Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 3:48 AM Subject: Re: Bd calendar > Dear Julie, > I have never seen it as "loyalty" to the calendar, but rather a process of > learning and understanding. Whilst predicting the weather seems to be > irresistable to all of us, I believe it is short sighted to believe that is > the main thing one can find in the calendar. Planetary influences on weather > tend to be interpreted or mediated by local geography and conditions. > > I have found that the calendar can produce "models" of the season or year, > or specific processes contained in the season or year. I also find the moon > through the constellations very interesting, relating to Goethes > metamorphisis of plants, wherein one can begin to find some practical basis > for using 501 with the moon and constellations. > > For haymaking I prefer Asc moon in flower, next preference would be Asc moon > in seed, or desc moon in flower. Having determined these I would endeavour > to avoid full moon, try and include moon opp Saturn, and avoid rain! I > always put 501 on AM Asc leaf @ 10 days prior to cutting (going > anticlockwise so any laid down grass is laying onto the cutter bar) > Afterwards the paddocks get full prep treatment a la Pfieffer but more > latterly sequential spraying. > > Having read some postings by others eg Glen who have a stromger astrological > background than I, I am coming of the view that the BD Calendar develops a > rather empirical approach to planetary/cosmic influences that is consistant > with modern practice (ie Steiners "There needs to be a science of these > things") In other words it is merely a modern development of a very > traditional awareness of the workings of nature. Therefore the calendar has > its own limitations and potentials within its own unique context. One should > always look for the practical use of it ("In the truly practical we will > find the truly spiritual...") and if one tries to find more or less than the > practical one may be disappointed. > > Much of my approach to sharing the calendar with others is helping point to > how one may find ones own answers rather than "tell" my own ideas. Afterall > I have seen many people achieve equal sucess with different interpretations > and models, thus understanding is as important as recipe in my view. > > Hope this is of help, > Gareth. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 8 10:20:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29657 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00918; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:05:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00519 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:02:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00DB060B@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:00:53 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 8 Jun 99 10:02:20 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 8 Jun 99 10:01:58 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:01:58 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Bd calendar Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000701beb10d$d5340540$994b2e9c@oemcomputer> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <162E6DF7EDB@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1087 Julie wrote: > Would you tell us what you've seen to be the strengths & weaknesses > of the calendar? (And yes, please do discuss your haymaking...we lost quite > a bit of our crop last year, as against the calendar recommendation, we cut > hay preceding a leaf period, and subsequently, watched it rot in the > fields...perhaps a fluke, but come winter, sure makes one wonder!) I just wanted to say that when I lived in the Dominican Republic, I most often worked with an old farmer named Ignacio who was absolutely serious about the phases of the moon. He said that if you were to cut wood for fencing, for example, in the wrong phase (full moon I think, when the sap is up?) the fence would rot right away, and if you did it at the right time, the very same wood would last for years. The effects of the moon (not as close as the weather, but *much* closer than the stars and other planets) makes a lot of sence to me, especially as it effects the rise and fall of sap and other vital juices in the plant. Ignacio saw the fence that one of the young men had made for a garden and scoffed at it because it was cut at the wrong time. And lo and behold, within months even the biggest corner logs were crumbling from insect infestation and rot. And I never saw Ignacio's fences do that. So it convinced me. Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 8 11:23:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01204 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06871; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:10:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06591 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:08:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00DB1746@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:05:52 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 8 Jun 99 11:07:19 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 8 Jun 99 11:07:13 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:07:13 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Peppering questions Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3757F887.1265@cwcom.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <163FD4E568D@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1088 > Anita - I share your scepticism about incomplete anecdotal evidence and > I have no reliable details to add, but I could just mention that pulling > docks usually leaves a substantial part of the root behind, unless the > ground is extremely soft (the field we saw is well-drained); root > pieces freely re-shoot and docks also shed seed freely (I don't know if > they were pulled before or after the seed-heads matured and maybe we > missed seeing small seedlings). By mid-June (time of the course) dock > plants are well-developed and very visible; they're not greatly > affected by minor climatic changes. The field is used for rough-ish > grazing and would have received no further treatment other than, > perhaps, some muck-spreading. Tony N-S. > I see. That sounds quite convincing. By your description, I think I must know dock personally; it's habits sound so familiar. I have 2 questions. 1) is the evidence of dock scarcity still present? and 2) what about the issue of dealing with the reason that dock "docked" there in the first place? Was this addressed, or is it not so important? Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 8 11:29:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01373 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:29:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07468; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07369 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:16:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.131]) by pop1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990608151553.DPMN3998522.pop1-rme@garudix> for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 03:15:53 +1200 Message-ID: <375D3449.7D93@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 03:18:34 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: BD Calendar Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1089 > You wrote: > > >One of the realities I try to convey in my diagrams is the > > layered ness of creation, each layer effects those around it but mostly > > the ones below influence the way the ones above manifest. The weather is > > closer to us than the moon. > > But at your page: > > "Hence the weather, plant sap flow and Human moods all move in a predictable > dance orchestrated by the planets. As scary as this seems, my twenty years > of observing these cycles has shown me beyond a doubt that this is so." > > and "As above, so below" > > I'm trying to grasp the missing link here. If the lower layers exert more > effect on the one above, what would be the most influencing layer on > weather? The earth (and us) or the moon/planets? Certainly, arguments for > both can be > made...that we here on earth have certainly influenced certain climactic > changes & weather phenomena, (via our pollution of the planet, destruction > of the O-Zone, etc.) and the other side of the coin is represented in your > comment that the planets orchestrate weather, etc. Yes well done your conclusions are correct. It is a subtle interplay. The most important point I see is that the planets are the only (major) moving part - apart from asteroids and comets and solar flares - of the galactic apple we live within. They move all the time and very predictably. This is relative to our time reality of course. Therefore it can easily be obseved that as they move they have a significant impact on Earths weather. Moon through the constellations is one influence however the big storms etc are imaged in the planetary aspects. I do not wish to down play the role of the Sun in this and the predictable cycles of sun spots. The more random solar flare activity also plays into this however we must remember the planets and their positions and relationships are the great solar system mirrors that will reflect any activity from the Sun in that predictable manner. So we may get a solar blast but it will be reflected back to us indirectly in a generally predictable manner. I have not observed the difference in solar flares occuring at easy or difficult times. So this is what is coming at us. I believe you are correct in saying the that the chemical and pollution condition of the atmosphere will influence the way that both the weather acts and how the spiritual bodies can respond to incoming influences. My point is more though, if we have the planets saying it is a hot dry period and the moon is full or in a water constellations its influences will not be able to work as strongly as if it were wet (due to the planets) So I hope that clarifies things, I guess I see the Sun & planets as primarily influential in the overall weather. Yet any particular influence is dependant on the atmosphere manifestation - of the overall influences. The specific site manifestation and plant manifestation is also going to depend on the state of the biosphere ie soil, chemical balance, humus levels, shade, drainage etc. All layers upon layers all influencing the way the one above 'manifests'. Of the most important is to have the field prepared and the seed inserted for any of the above to be at all relevant. Also, the first statement > would lead to the question of how the weather would influence the > moon/heavens? The key word here in my sentence is 'manifest' The weather influences the way the planets can manifest on earth. See the Agriculture course lect. 2 I think where RS talks about how the moon is strong after rain while Saturn is stronger when the atmosphere is hot possibly caused by lots of Trines in fire constellations for eg hence the full moon in water may not be so effective for the sowing of your lettuce. In fact it might just rush off to seed early. > > Also, as nature always seeks balance, one would wonder how either upward or > downward forces could manifest "mostly" in either direction...would there > not ALWAYS be some remedial factor at work, seeking that balance? I am not exactly sure of what you are saying here. I think my use of 'mostly' is different to how you are saying it. Re balance though, the planets are always moving and therefore the planetary influences keep changing before any one really negative influence gets out of hand. However there are times the outer planets stay in negative relationships for long times and we have very negative periods of history occurring. Uranus Pluto square of the late 20s appears as the depression, Saturn Uranus Pluto opposition of 64-69 as the intensification of Vietnam and more lately keep an eye on the Saturn Uranus square presently taking place in fixed signs and about for the next 12 months. So luckily we are a spinning moving gyroscope which has managed to maintain enough internal moveable balance to stay in relative cohesion for the last 5 billion years. With only periodic extreme imbalances which have seen some 16 previous extinctions of life on Earth, that is. It all moves pretty fast and I find watching the sharemarket indices a great image of these fluctuations. I have a hobby of trying to predict them (on a hourly basis sometimes) just to see how set and predictable life is. cheers Glen A I understand (but admit I will be reviewing a few more times) and like everything.I'll try to clarify my last question....You said: "...I try to convey in my diagrams is the layered ness of creation, each layer effects those around it but mostly the ones below influence the way the ones above manifest." So I read this to mean that more than upper level sending down influences, lower levels have more/stronger influence on upper ones..it seemed to ultimately create a vacuum to me, if more influence or energy was going in either direction...(but I will admit, I certainly needed to consider this theory...that the upward forces have effect on what is above, more perhaps than I'd noted!) > > Also, as nature always seeks balance, one would wonder how either upward or > > downward forces could manifest "mostly" in either direction...would there > > not ALWAYS be some remedial factor at work, seeking that balance? > > I am not exactly sure of what you are saying here. I think my use of > 'mostly' is different to how you are saying it. So (from above) did I misunderstand? GA I am sure the radiations of the Earth and the even the thoughts and feelings of humans etc do radiate back into the cosmos, if nothing other than accumulating in the World Astrality however my point was somewhat more mundane than that. If it is a drought, seed sowing even at full moon could prove disappointing. > > Re balance though, the planets are always moving and therefore the > planetary influences keep changing before any one really negative > influence gets out of hand. Bear with me...I'm trying...so lets use an example...here we are, tampering with plant genetics, and lets say, that its negative nasty stuff we are sending out to the plants, the earth, the environment, and finally the cosmos. The universe receives & "catches" the resulting energy, the planets move (in their predictable cycles) and are capable of transforming that energy via their movement & they (hopefully) send it back to us in the form of a positive reactive force? (Has gotta make you wonder what sort of reactive force could create balance in such a phenominal imbalance we are insisting on creating! And what would be considered "positive" by the cosmos, might not be positive, certainly in our sense of the word...but it would have to be equal in relation to the radical negativity we've sent forth? Scary...Am I missing it, or getting closer? And after what you say below...we may never see it in this lifetime. GA I think you are making it more complex than I am suggesting. My comments regarding balance (and inbalance) refer mostly to the planets as the motive force. If the planets create tension for too long then major inbalances start to occur. It is interesting with sharemarkets than the beginning of the negative period slows the upward movement, the middle often turns the tide while often it is the last few parts of the influence which sends it madly downwards.( There was one event in 91. After waiting 16 aspects, it was Friday afternoon, I just got closed out 5 mins before the close. There was only one more Mars Saturn tension left to go, over the weekend. I thought it has not gone yet, so I would wait for Monday. Over the weekend Wall St dropped on the MArs Saturn and it was all over. That was the straw that broke the camels back and I missed it after waiting for a couple of weeks.) The key is often the length of the aspecting period. Of course there are aspects such as a Jupiter Neptune square (see Aug 99) which creates sudden spikes. Interestingly with this particular one it is a sudden spike upwards which then collapses downwards. (false hopes). This same influence would tend to bring us a cold snap from the south weatherwise. Coupled with the Saturn Uranus and Mars I am anticipating a wet July August for many parts of NZ. Us, we are in the rain shadow for southerlies so we could easily be dryish. Yet due to the length of the aspects many areas will be crying for mercy by late August, I expect. I do not imagine the planets can balance out the ecological evolutionary madness taking place with GE. It will just go down in metomorphic history as one of those evolutionary jump periods I guess. Maybe this is how evolution has always occurred anyway. cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 8 11:57:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA02031 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10062; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09868 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:44:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.207.238]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:45:34 +0100 Message-ID: <375D3B18.4071@cwcom.net> Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 16:47:36 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Peppering questions References: <163FD4E568D@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1090 Anita - I have no follow-up information, I'm afraid; but Malcolm asked me (off-list) for the details needed to write a letter to the farmer concerned so, hopefully, he'll have something to report in due course. Because of this, I thought it better not to pester the man with my own queries. The farm has been biodynamic for quite a long time, so your question about why the docks appeared in the first place is a good one (to which I also have no answer!). In materialistic terms, it is a very common weed of disturbed land (often together with nettles, which were discussed on the list some time ago) and I certainly have many dock plants - I hope not too clear an indication of my lack of biodynamic skills ! At present, I just hand-weed them when the ground is open and wet - I'm scared to experiment with peppering because I also have sorrel growing wild, a close relative which I value. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 8 12:10:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02274 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:10:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10915; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:56:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10608 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:53:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00DB2325@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:51:30 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 8 Jun 99 11:52:57 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 8 Jun 99 11:52:32 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:52:23 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: BD calendar Priority: normal In-reply-to: <003d01beaebb$6f8bc1a0$a04b2e9c@oemcomputer> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <164BEA313C0@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1091 In answer to Julies reply to my post: > >We > > always planted (into the beds, not the greenhouse) two days before > > the full moon. Flower, leaf, and root work took place as needed when > > possible without consulting Maria Thun or anyone else. And the year > > I worked there, the garden was fabulously successful -- generous, > > overflowing baskets for 40 shares all year long on 2 acres. > > No doubt about it...BD is fabulous stuff. And this farm is successful, > generous, overflowing, all those words are terms of quantity. I would like > to know about the quality...could you tell the difference between the BD > produce and the rest? There was discussion sometime back about testing & > proving the qualitive superiority of BD food. I half-heartedly wish that > science would develop a "concrete" bonafide way of showing this. But that > will only happen when it becomes profitable to someone (so they will fund > the research). As long as BD remains in the hands of believers, rather than > mega-agri corps, well, it will never be acknowledged/supported by modern > profit-based & supported science. Perhaps the art is better served by its > lack of recognition...once conventional ag heard about organic farming's Bt, > they were cutting & splicing & serving it up to us in our corn! A pilfered & > raped natural defense now rendered useless in organic farming. I wonder how > they would disfigure BD?! As to the difference between the quality of food we produced and the rest, it was a mixed bag. Some things were clearly superior. For example, we must have done everything right with the celery (or I am just particularly attuned to the celery fairies) because that was the most out-of-this-world, stupifying celery I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. It was almost aphrodisiacal. We were instructed to "clean" it by removing the outter stalks, but I couldn't even let one stalk go and stuffed as much discared celery stalks in my mouth as I could while I harvested. I sigh just remembering it. The herbs were also quite good. I've never had such pungent peppermint before. Other crops were not out-of-this-world, but they were excellent, like the cucubits, nightshades, lettuces and broccoli. Broccoli and beets were very good, Cauliflower and cabbage were good, but carrots were mostly tasteless, celeriac left a lot to be desired, rutabega smelled pretty gross (but maybe I just don't like it) and the kale was difficult to distinguish from the aphids. > > As you can tell from my posts, I struggle between awe and admiration > > and harump- scepticism when it comes to bd. > > And what a great place to be...standing on the threshold between the seen & > the unseen...just a step away! > > >There is no question in > > my mind that the bd farms I have visited are among the best farms I > > have ever seen. > > So you see this part, but question whether it is simply the compost... > > >I often thought as an apprentice > > that the huge amounts of good compost we consistently put everywhere > > must have made success inevitable regardless of all the ceremonial > > stirrings, preppings, pepperings, etc. > > Surely you've also visited organic farms at which compost is also a critical > element...did you see a difference in their farms compared to BD farms? Well, I'd have to first say that there is a lot of crap out there that passes for compost. And in the less-than-impressive organic farms I've seen, I was also not impressed with their compost. And anyway, I doubt they put as much compost on their land as the farmer I worked with does (on average, a wheelbarrow of compost for every five feet of raised bed about 3 feet wide at every planting and two shovel fulls of rich compost in every hole for every winter squash plant -- and that is besides a green manure cover crop rotated in about once every year or two and the rich compost planting medium they got as seedlings in the greenhouse or periodic sprayings of "jaucha" (sp?) which was some sort of German compost tea.) > >Of course I could be wrong, but it just doesn't seem worth > > it to me to get so neurotic about all these things. Surly the best > > tool you have is your intuition along with your critical faculties of > > observation and experimentation. > > I think "neurotic" is a pretty strong term, suggestive of mental/emotional > disorder. Perhaps the actual disorder lies in ignoring or minimizing that > which we cannot see. Surely we must recognize that no invention, no > improvement, no discovery or great truth has not first gone through the > fires of ridicule upon presentation to the common masses (even down to the > earth's shape!) Isn't it funny though, we are such hypocrites...we laugh at > those great men...and when they've gone, we use their quotes in our email > signatures! Oh, I don't think "neurotic" is too strong at all. Like the followers of any religion, there is a tendency to put more emphasis on form than function, on the letter of the law rather than the spirit of it. Having grown up next to the Rudolf Steiner College, I have seen many such wide-eyed, newly converted fans of anthroposophy who want so badly to walk on a higher mystical plane that they fail to realize that what they should be searching for is *inside* then rather than *outside* them in any particular text of body of rules and regulations. They are so eager to get the right formula and do all 'just so' that forget about their own critical faculties and fail to ask the pertinent (and impertinent!) questions, make their own observations, and generally slow down the flow of information so that it can perculate down to them and be truly integrated into their unique selves. I'm sure that this is the reason that the important truths in life are usually presented in such obscure ways to begin with like Zen koans and biblical or Steiner thick, difficult writings, symbology and the like. You are not meant to get this stuff in the liquified synthetic fertilizer mode. It requires a great deal of personal work, and in the end, perhaps your "formula" will be different from someone else's, I don't know. In any case, getting worked up over the form and details is in my opinion misspent energy and that easily becomes neurotic. So I stand by my choice of words. (And we are all neurotic from time to time, so this is not meant to refer to some obscure mental illness that only effects the person who wrote the original post on this thread.) > You are trying to understand it...that's an important place to be. The key > is keeping an open mind. I think that looking for the validity of BD, rather > than the scientific proof (or disproof), which you have to dig for...is > where you will find the answer...they say that when the student is ready the > teacher appears...perhaps that's where you are at. Let the "awe and > admiration" lead you & leave the "harump-scepticism" behind, you can always > go back if it doesn't serve you! :-) Well, my awe and inspiration go hand-in-hand with my harumph-scepticism. Maybe it's the combination of my sun in Picease and my first house in Virgo? :-) It's also my firm belief that it was never Steiner's intention that his lectures should be taken on faith alone. Otherwise, why would he speak so much of the need for a spiritual SCIENCE? All good science takes place with an open yet questioning and critical mind. If I question or criticize or express doubt and harumph, that doens't mean that my mind is not open. It just means that my eyes are not closed! > A fellow student, > Julie > > PS. You might get yourself a calendar...just to check it out. I even > experimented comparing farmer's almanac-style planting vs. bd calendar > planting...yup, they're different! I enjoy the weather part the most. Is it > really going to rain on a leaf day? For me, it did...most of the time. Even > with its "glitches", I see this as supporting rather than disproving...that > we understand part of it, but not all of it just yet. In fact, I found that > Mr. Weather on nightly news had a worse accuracy rate than Stella Natura! Yes, you're right. I would like to look at the SN calender that hangs in the greenhouse of the bd garden where I used to work, since I introduced the practice of noting down the weather conditions of each day. That would be a great piece of evidence. Well, I'm off to lunch. Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 8 12:20:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02509 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12412; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:09:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12128 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:06:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp325.cy-net.net [208.21.195.134]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20537 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:06:09 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEB19D.EE5CE600@FLYLO>; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:59:08 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEB19D.EE5CE600@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: weed id Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:58:31 -0500 Encoding: 12 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1092 I have lots of weeds, but one has me stumped. We have tons of sour dock that makes small 'grain;' heads, and are nice to chew on the stalks, it's not that one. This creates a basal roseatte of big rough leaves and a central stalk that is very woody, and a ROOT. The root is massive. In the late winter, early spring, the old woody stalks are the only thing pointing to the roots. I have found this to be a very satisfying plant, tho! I love to loosen the soil around it with a pitchfork and pull that humongous root out of the ground. I don't know why but it pleases me to no end. Nothing eats this weed, does anyone know what I'm talking about? Truthfully, I've gotten so much fun out of pulling this critter up, my garden is cleaned of them and now I'm eyeing the nearest field. martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 8 17:35:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA09678 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:35:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA09486; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05811 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:38:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00DB650C@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:37:20 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 8 Jun 99 16:38:47 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 8 Jun 99 16:38:40 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:38:34 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: weed id Priority: normal In-reply-to: <01BEB19D.EE5CE600@FLYLO> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <16983A964AE@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1093 > I have lots of weeds, but one has me stumped. We have tons of sour dock > that makes small 'grain;' heads, and are nice to chew on the stalks, it's > not that one. This creates a basal roseatte of big rough leaves and a > central stalk that is very woody, and a ROOT. The root is massive. In the > late winter, early spring, the old woody stalks are the only thing pointing > to the roots. I have found this to be a very satisfying plant, tho! I love > to loosen the soil around it with a pitchfork and pull that humongous root > out of the ground. I don't know why but it pleases me to no end. Nothing > eats this weed, does anyone know what I'm talking about? Truthfully, I've > gotten so much fun out of pulling this critter up, my garden is cleaned of > them and now I'm eyeing the nearest field. > martha That's funny and reminds me of how much I enjoyed "beating beans" while in the Dominican Republic. At bean harvest time there, the farmers gather the bean plants which have been allowed to fully dry and cure and they pile them on a big canvas. Then workers (usually Haitians) line up staggared on either side of the pile, each man with a long stick. Then one side goes down (oh-weh!) while the other side waits its turn (oh-weh!). This goes on, each side going down while the other side goes up, to the rhythmical chants of OH-WEH! oh-weh! until the beans are all beaten from their pods. Sometimes, if you have an especially good work crew, there will be one fellow who sings a melody to the oh-weh chorus (something akin to what the military guys sing when they jog and usually having a country music theme, as in, "My woman done left me (OH-WEH, oh weh), And now I'm all alone (OH-WEH, oh-weh)..." I don't know of any other female who ever participated in the bean beating, but no one objected to me getting in there, and I found it to be not only a fabulous full body workout, but EVER so satisfying, much in the way you describe the hard work of digging out the mystery root. It's not on-topic, but I thought you all might enjoy my bean-beating story. As for the root, it sounds like that root that the Japanese people cook and eat but of which I don't remember the name. We occasionally found it on the bd farm I worked on and since there were always a passle of Japanese students around, our particular root didnt' go unidentified. Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 8 17:35:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA09687 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA09604; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06342 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:46:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.127]) by pop1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990608204541.EOPL3998522.pop1-rme@garudix> for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 08:45:41 +1200 Message-ID: <375D8198.DA8@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 08:48:24 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: peppering questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1094 Anita and Tony Both Dock and sorrel are an indications of low pH. Low Calcium usually. An good application of which can see them just disappear, no digging needed. A small story. Last spring, in a very low lying, lowish pH field we had some docks in the pathways and some slugs attacking the plants. Plants had low calcium in the leaves too, so we were doing some remedial spraying which included calcium BD preps and a calcium enhanced liquid manure. The slugs did not touch our plants anymore yet the dock leaves looked like white butterfly eaten cabbage leaves. I have not seen a dock there for months. "Magic Happens" (A bumper sticker I got on my recent travels) cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 8 17:58:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA10108 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:58:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA11553; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:47:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11435 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:44:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d143.infoserve.net [199.175.157.143]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA21068 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 14:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001d01beb1f5$a323f860$8f9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF / Fw: GEN6-6 Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 14:26:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1095 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 1:11 PM Subject: GEN6-6 >thanks to Bradford Duplisea for posting this: > >The Independent on Sunday >6 June 1999 > >Modified corn on sale in UK 'kills' life-saving antibiotics > >By Marie Woolf > >GM corn sold in Britain could render eight powerful antibiotics, used by >doctors to fight fatal diseases including typhoid, pneumonia and infections >suffered by Aids patients, useless within half an hour. > >Expert advice received by the Ministry of Agriculture (Maff) as long ago as >1995, warned that an antibiotic resistance gene inserted into a type of GM >maize was so powerful that it could degrade an antibiotic in the human gut >in 30 minutes. > >The antibiotics are used to treat people with diseases such as bronchitis, >septicemia, gangrene and life-threatening infections suffered by people >with cystic fibrosis and Aids. > >The leaked advice, from members of the Government's powerful Advisory Committee >on Novel Foods and Processes, warned that the antibiotic resistance genes >can mutate. > >GM maize is already grown in the US and imported into Britain in foods such >as tortilla chips. > >The leaked advice has brought calls from environmentalists to ban the >import into Britain of all GM food containing antibiotic resistance genes. > >The week the Liberal Democrats will take the toughest stand by any >political party yet on GM when they publish a policy paper on genetic >modification. The party will call for the "swift phasing out of the use of >antibiotic marker genes". > >"It is completely irresponsible for the Government to allow antibiotics to >be used indiscriminately like confetti at a wedding," said Norman Baker, >the Liberal Democrat environment spokesman. > >The Liberal Democrats will call for genetic engineering companies, such as >Monsanto and Novartis, to be legally liable for millions of pounds of >compensation if the food turns out to harm people. > >...... > >June 5, 1999 > >Protests Over rBGH Use in New Zealand > >Activists Pledge to Take Action! > >The Steering Council (board) members of the Pesticide Action Network Asia >and the Pacific (PAN AP) discussed the application to the New Zealand >government for the use of rBGH (recombinant Bovine Growth Hormone) in the >Dairy Industry, at a recent meeting in Malaysia. > >Members from Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, Japan, Korea and India >representing networks of consumers, women's and environmental organizations >across the region, strongly oppose the use of this growth hormone due to >associated health effects - including breast and prostate cancer. > >"In the case of rBGH, the links to cancer, and other human health and >safety concerns demands added vigilance. People have the right to know >that they could be seriously jeopardizing their health, and that of their >children", commented Anwar Fazal, PAN AP Steering Council Member, and >Chairperson for the World Alliance for Breastfeeding Action (WABA). > >Since New Zealand dairy products are commonly sold and consumed in many of >these countries, the organizations have pledged to organize actions - >including boycotts of New Zealand dairy products - should the registration >proceed. > >....... > >Friday June 4, 11:26 am Eastern Time > >Gene soybeans to make up 55pct of U.S. >crop in 99 > >BERNE, June 4 (Reuters) - Genetically modified soybean varieties are >expected to make up almost 55 percent of the U.S. crop this year, compared >with about two percent in 1996, an official with the United Soybean Board >(USB) said on Friday. > >....... > > >National Summit on the Hazards of Genetically Engineered Foods > >Presenting the first 500,000 petition signatures calling for the mandatory >labeling of genetically engineered foods that will be submitted to the >President, Congress, USDA, FDA, and EPA Thursday, June 17 > >Capitol Hilton Hotel, 16th & K Streets, NW, Washington, D.C. 9 AM to 12 Noon > >You are cordially invited to attend this National Summit of eminent >scientists and physicians, public policy experts, business and industy >leaders, farmers, religious and spiritual leaders, and consumers to discuss >the urgent need to safeguard our food supply from the hazards of genetic >engineering. > >- Panelists - > >Science, Health, and Environment > >Sheldon Krimsky, Ph.D., Professor, Department of Urban and Environmental >Policy, Tufts University > >Richard Strohman, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus, Molecular and Cell Biology, >University of California at Berkeley > >Rama Dwivedi, Ph.D., Associate Director, Targeted Mutagenesis Facility, >Children's Memorial Hospital, Northwestern University Medical School > >John Hagelin, Ph.D., Director, Institute of Science, Technology, and Public >Policy; Presidential Candidate, Natural Law Party; Conference Moderator > >Ronald David, M.D., Chief Medical Officer, D.C. General Hospital, >Washington, D.C. > >Gary Kaplan, M.D., Ph.D., Director, Clinical Neurophysiology, North Shore >University Hospital, New York University School of Medicine > >Agriculture, Economics, and Trade > >Bill Wadsworth, Technical Manager, Iceland Frozen Foods, Plc, United >Kingdom; Former Chairman, Food Legislation Committee, British Retail >Consortium; 1999 Corporate Conscience Award Winner, Council on Economic >Priorities > >The Hon. Marie Rabideau, New Hampshire State Legislature; Sponsor of House >Bill 291 that would ban "Terminator Technology" from New Hampshire > >Patrick McVeigh, Executive Vice President, Trillium Asset Management >(formerly Franklin Research and Development) > >Steve Suppan, Ph.D., Director of Research, Institute for Agriculture and >Trade Policy > >Frederick Kirschenman, Ph.D., Owner, Kirschenman Family Farms; Member, >National Organic Standards Board; Former member, USDA National Sustainable >Agriculture Advisory Council > >Margaret Wittenberg, Vice President, Governmental and Public Affairs, >Whole Foods Market, Inc.; Member, USDA/EPA Tolerance Reassessment Advisory >Committee > >Susan Haeger, President, Citizens For Health > >Laura Ticciati, Executive Director, Mothers for Natural Law; National >Coordinator, "Consumer Right to Know Campaign;" Conference Host > >Ethics and Religion > >Steve Druker, President, Alliance for Bio-Integrity > >Reverend Dr. Donald Conroy, Roman Catholic Priest; President, North >American Coalition on Religion and Ecology > >Rabbi Alan Green, Association of Jewish Renewal Rabbis > >Reverend DeWitt Williams, Director of Health Ministries of North America, >Seventh-Day Adventist Church > >Reservations and information: 1-877-732-5366 Sponsored by Mothers for >Natural Law of the Natural Law Party Participation by panel members does >not necessarily imply support for the Natural Law Party. > >Natural Law Party * Blair House Suite 525 * 8201 16th Street * Silver >Spring, MD 20910 > >William Crist, media communications >639 Whispering Hills Road, Suite 219 >Boone, North Carolina 28607 USA >ph. 828-265-0023 >................... > >The Guardian 7th June 99. > >Front page > >Blair softens stance on GMfoods, > >Links, reports and background: everything you need to know about GM food > >Nicholas Watt, Political Correspondent Monday June 7, > >Tony Blair yesterday signalled a significant softening of his support for >genetically modified foods when he declared that "the jury is out" on >whether they are safe to eat. > >After months of intensive campaigning by ministers on the benefits of GM >foods, the prime minister indicated that he has heeded growing public >opposition when he admitted that he was horrified when he first heard the >term. > >"The first time I heard about genetic modification the term [was] so >terrible," Mr Blair told BBC1's Breakfast with Frost. "You think, my >goodness,what on earth is going on here. You think of Dr Strangelove." > >The Prince of Wales, who spoke out against the genetic modification of >crops last week, reportedly told friends that Cherie Booth [wife of Mr. >Blair] spoke of her worries about the health and environmental impact of >GM crops over lunch at his Highgrove estate last September. > >In the interview yesterday the prime minister refused to comment on his >wife's thoughts, joking that he would "get into a lot of trouble" if he >spoke about their private discussions. > >But Mr Blair said that he understood such fears,as he attempted to recast >himself in the role of neutral observer on the issue of GM foods. > >Mr Blair said: "We're in the position, as the government, where it is >almost as if people say you're the greatest advocates of GM food. I'm not >the advocate of anything other than keeping an open mind." > >...... >Sunday, May 30, 1999. St. Louis Post-Dispatch > >U.S. TURNS SPOTLIGHT ON GENETIC ENGINEERING "WE CAN'T FORCE-FEED >CONSUMERS," AGRICULTURE SECRETARY SAYS > >By Bill Lambrecht Post-Dispatch Washington Bureau > >In the planting of genetically changed crops around the world, the U.S. >government has done just about everything it can to help except drive the >tractor. > >Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman has been one of biotechnology's leading >boosters, admonishing reluctant Europeans not to stand in the way of >progress and urging the acceptance of food grown using the new, American >technology. But lately, Glickman has turned cautious. In St. Louis last >week, he warned that the United States must pay closer attention to >questions being raised around the world about genetic engineering. > >"We can't force-feed . . . reluctant consumers," he said. > >His words, along with a recent scientific finding that biotechnology may >harm butterflies, are helping trigger an emerging debate in this country >that could prove pivotal for the new technology and for its driving force, >St. Louis-based Monsanto Co. > >In an interview in Washington on Friday, Glickman said biotechnology >"shouldn't be a steamroller. ... Ultimately, if the consumer doesn't buy, >the technology isn't worth a damn. Period." > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 8 21:14:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA13670 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:14:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21692; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:01:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA19924 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 20:33:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 29617 invoked from network); 9 Jun 1999 00:33:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.40.92) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 1999 00:33:24 -0000 Message-ID: <067601beb20e$df7dc340$da1dd2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: weed id Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 20:27:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1096 Could this be burdock? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 8 23:22:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA15164 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:22:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA00564; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:09:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00359 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([12.70.21.140]) by mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.06 118-133) with SMTP id <19990609030607.FOTI15544@default>; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 03:06:07 +0000 Message-ID: <375DDD92.2FC5@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 23:20:50 -0400 From: Linda Ray Organization: Linda Ray Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org CC: LINDARAY@worldnet.att.net Subject: OFF(?)-and Long- Glickman does about-face on GE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1097 Dear Listfolk, It looks like Dan Glickman has done an about-face on GE Technology (Thank You God). This great news (scroll down below the line of asterisks) was forwarded to me by Judy Kew at Greenbuilders. If we do an "Email storm" to our Congresspersons now, we can steer the stage somewhat, make our opinions *more* visible, and push this issue. IMO this is an ideal time to speak up! So-- :) Here are links to the Phone and Fax numbers and Postal addresses for Members of both the US House and Senate Appropriations Subcommittees on Agriculture, Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies at the following Web address (I like this particular link because it also tells the business/occupation of the member): http://web.iquest.net/ofma/apphon.htm Senate Ag Committee Members via Email: http://web.iquest.net/ofma/senate.htm House Ag. Committee Members via Email: http://web.iquest.net/ofma/aghouse.htm Senate Appropriations Subcommittee On Agriculture, Rural Development and Related Agencies Members via Email: http://web.iquest.net/ofma/hssen.htm House Subcommittee on Agriculture, Rural Developments Food and Drug Administration and Related Agencies Members via Email: http://web.iquest.net/ofma/hssen.htm Dan Glickman's Phone#: Ph. 202-720-3631 Best Regards To all, Linda Ray ******************************************************************** Originally published on Sunday, May 30, 1999. St. Louis Post-Dispatch U.S. TURNS SPOTLIGHT ON GENETIC ENGINEERING "WE CAN'T FORCE-FEED CONSUMERS," AGRICULTURE SECRETARY SAYS By Bill Lambrecht Post-Dispatch Washington Bureau In the planting of genetically changed crops around the world, the U.S. government has done just about everything it can to help except drive the tractor. Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman has been one of biotechnology's leading boosters, admonishing reluctant Europeans not to stand in the way of progress and urging the acceptance of food grown using the new, American technology. But lately, Glickman has turned cautious. In St. Louis last week, he warned that the United States must pay closer attention to questions being raised around the world about genetic engineering. "We can't force-feed . . . reluctant consumers," he said. His words, along with a recent scientific finding that biotechnology may harm butterflies, are helping trigger an emerging debate in this country that could prove pivotal for the new technology and for its driving force, St. Louis-based Monsanto Co. In an interview in Washington on Friday, Glickman said biotechnology "shouldn't be a steamroller. ... Ultimately, if the consumer doesn't buy, the technology isn't worth a damn. Period." He said European concerns about the potential health and environmental effects of modified crops are taking a toll on U.S. grain exports. "There are certainly more and more questions being asked about biotechnology, and those questions must be answered," Glickman said. "They cannot be brushed off. They must be dealt with. "You can't stop progress. ... But it doesn't mean that it is written on Mount Sinai that there aren't questions that have to be answered. I believe that is the era we are entering right now." Emerging debate After years of muted concerns about biotechnology in the United States, Washington is suddenly brimming with new studies and discussions: * A White House task force will report as early as July on the prospect of labeling genetically engineered foods, the administration disclosed last week. One option is voluntary labeling to give consumers more information. * The National Academy of Sciences met last week to plan a new biotechnology review that focuses on seeds and ownership of genetic materials. An academy panel also held a public hearing last week on a study of potential risks of crops engineered to resist pests. * Glickman has resurrected a biotechnology advisory committee that will have a wide array of experts, members of the public and critics. Official notice of the committee might appear in the Federal Register as early as this week, with the first meeting held by summer. If that weren't enough new activity, wealthy foundations are considering plowing millions of dollars into a public awareness campaign that would be conducted by environmental advocacy groups. "There is a shift. It might even be a sea change," Margaret Mellon of the Union of Concerned Scientists said of the new attention in the United States to genetic engineering. Jay Byrne, a Monsanto spokesman, said he regards the attention as positive. Three government studies published this month in the United Kingdom -- by the Irish Food Authority, by a British House of Commons committee and by a British Ministry of Agriculture panel -- found no human health implications from gene-altered food. As Byrne sees it, the flurry of new studies in Washington can allay any fears that might be sprouting. "People are getting engaged in a responsible manner seeking out valid independent information from the science community on this issue," he said. Butterfly flap The emerging debates will include topics as large as corporate mergers in agriculture -- which Glickman also is warning about -- and as small as the butterfly. In a report that accelerated the biotechnology debate globally, Cornell University scientists reported 10 days ago that monarch butterflies could be threatened by certain modified crops. They found that nearly half of the caterpillars in laboratory tests died after eating the pollen of corn engineered with Bt (bacillus thuringiensis) bacteria to resist pests. With as much 25 million acres in the United States being sown with engineered corn this year, many people took notice. Unfortunately for the genetic science industry, the report dealt not with spiders or cockroaches, but with the "Bambi of the insect world," as a Washington Post headline put it. The monarch study gave people a touchstone in a complex matter that most Americans haven't thought a lot about. For European leaders, it was evidence to raise more barriers to the technology. The 15-nation European Union said it would suspend further consideration of approvals for modified corn. Austria banned cultivation of Monsanto's engineered corn, and the French ambassador said his country might revisit its past approval of a Monsanto hybrid. Those reactions could prove to be ill-considered if the next round of studies showed that cornfields are easier on monarchs than a college lab. For now, Kathryn DiMatteo, executive director of the Massachusetts-based Organic Trade Association, sees the Cornell study as galvanizing groups that have paid scant attention to genetic science. "It's getting to be critical mass," she said. Glickman shift Besides encouraging public debate, Glickman is raising eyebrows among insiders who watch the politics of genetic engineering. His public shift from cheerleader to probing realist began a month ago in a speech at Purdue University. "It's not enough to celebrate science for science's sake," Glickman said in the speech. "When it's all said and done, the public opinion poll is just as powerful a research tool as the test tube." In an interview, Glickman said he was trying to send a message not just to the American people, but to others in government. He said he remains committed to biotechnology as important both to human health and to farming. But, he added, a better job has to be done about building confidence. "There's a growing concern about what people eat, what goes in their mouths," Glickman said. Glickman surprised participants on all sides of the debate, among them Charles Benbrook, a consultant who has worked for Congress and the National Academy of Sciences since the early 1980s. When word of Glickman's all-but-ignored speech at Purdue filtered out, Benbrook said, "People's jaws dropped. ... It was probably the most dramatic turnaround in the message of a secretary of agriculture that I've seen." Fueling the debate Unlike their European counterparts, most pro-environment organizations in the United States have paid scant attention to genetic engineering. Some American groups may have been persuaded by the potential of modified crops to reduce the spraying of farm chemicals. Some groups had their plates full, while others lacked resources to pursue a complicated issue that requires scientific expertise. This lack of attention has befuddled their European counterparts but may change soon with an infusion of money from foundations. The Chicago-based Joyce Foundation is among several foundations that have been gathering information on genetic engineering for a meeting to be held next month in New York. Participants have put together an inch-thick workbook on biotechnology that they will distribute to representatives of foundations that fuel much of the work of America's environmental advocacy groups. The Joyce Foundation's Margaret O'Dell said she sees donors drawn to biotechnology for several reasons, among them concern about patenting genetic resources. "We feel that it is important to put the appropriate regulatory framework and oversights in place so that we don't find ourselves as a society jumping into a new area without understanding the implications," she said. What that might mean is new, louder opposition to biotechnology that would turn up the heat on Monsanto and its rivals. Jean Halloran is the executive director of the Consumer Policy Institute, affiliated with Consumer Reports magazine. She explained that foundation money means more organizers, media specialists and experts writing reports. "Running a campaign on issues with no money is a lot like running for Congress with no money," she said. Monsanto's Byrne said that Monsanto is happy to participate in any new talks. "All too often, this debate can be polarized by the extremes of fear or concern and those of hope," he said. "The best public service is to have an informed debate in the middle," he said. _________________________________________________ By Michael Mann €€ HELSINKI - Finland will take a very cautious approach to legislation €€ on genetically modified organisms (GMOs) during its upcoming six €€ months as EU president, Finland's environment minister has warned. €€ "Genetic engineering is really fundamental, as fundamental as nuclear €€ power, and our basic principle must be the precautionary principle," €€ Satu Hassi said, referring to the EU's policy of avoiding health €€ risks. €€ "Splitting the atom is interfering with one of the most fundamental €€ things in nature. Genetic engineering is much the same," she said in a €€ recent interview with Brussels-based reporters in Helsinki. €€ The 15-member EU is currently revamping legislation on the approval €€ and licensing of new crops and food modified by biotechnology. €€ Life science companies and exporting countries such as the United €€ States want Europe to streamline the process to make it easier to sell €€ genetically modified organisms. But green and consumer groups fear €€ such foods could damage human health and the environment and want €€ lawmakers to enact extra safeguards. €€ Hassi signalled that those wishing speedy progress may be disappointed €€ when Finland takes over the EU presidency on July 1. €€ "I would be rather strict in the procedure and be very careful with €€ GMOs. These are issues where we can only see the results of our €€ actions after a long time," she said, adding that she felt Austria and €€ Luxembourg were fully justified in introducing national restrictions €€ on certain GM crops. €€ "I'm sure there are ways of using genetic engineering which are €€ acceptable. But my feeling is that scientists have had too much power €€ in creating the legislation." €€ Hassi said she was concerned about shortcomings in EU laws on the €€ labelling of GM foods, which she said cannot guarantee opponents of €€ the technology that their food is totally free of ingredients derived €€ from GM crops. €€ Current EU president Germany wants to broker a compromise on the €€ revision of GMO licensing laws at a meeting of EU environment €€ ministers on June 24 and 25, but its plans have run into stiff €€ opposition from the EU's executive Commission and a number of €€ governments. €€ If Bonn's attempt fails, it will be up to Hassi to find a solution to €€ the problem, so that the European Parliament can give the legislation €€ its second reading in the autumn. €€ Even if Germany succeeds, GM foods and new applications for marketing €€ approvals are certain to crop up several times during Finland's first €€ ever six-month stint chairing EU business. €€ (C) Reuters Limited 1999. ______________________________________ AgBiotech World Forum New Frontiers in Agricultural Biotechnology €€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€ June 9-11, 1999 · MGM Grand · Las Vegas, NV IBC's Ag BioTech World Forum presents a premier opportunity for the agricultural biotechnology industry to meet in a productive business environment. While only a small percentage of funding is currently allocated to agbiotech research, potential developments can massively impact the global economy. Possessing the ability to supply a cross-section of industries with novel, safe, affordable and highly evolved products, agricultural biotechnology is an area expected to erupt in the next millenium. An internationally recognized faculty of researchers, regulators, financiers, legal counsel, and agbio executives have been brought together to discuss concerns, provide solutions and prepare for the industry's future. IBC along with its international partners, Agra Europe, Ag-West Biotech, SJH and Co, the Agbiotech Reporter, and Seed & Crop Digest is excited to bring you the first agbiotech conference designed to bridge the gap between important scientific advancements and big business. 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An unparalleled event analyzing the trends, opportunities, expectations and global impact of biotechnology on the agriculture, seed and food industries. --- Green Building Professionals Directory at http://www.greenbuilder.com/directory/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 8 23:24:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA15176 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:23:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA00528; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00355 for ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:06:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([12.70.21.140]) by mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.06 118-133) with SMTP id <19990609030552.FOQF15544@default>; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 03:05:52 +0000 Message-ID: <375DDC36.4831@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 23:15:02 -0400 From: Linda Ray Organization: Linda Ray Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org CC: LINDARAY@worldnet.att.net Subject: OFF-Long- Glickman does about-face on GE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1098 Dear Listfolk, It looks like Dan Glickman has done an about-face on GE Technology (Thank You God). This great news (scroll down below the line of asterisks) was forwarded to me by Judy Kew at Greenbuilders. If we do an "Email storm" to our Congresspersons now, we can steer the stage somewhat, make our opinions *more* visible, and push this issue. IMO this is an ideal time to speak up! So-- :) Here are links to the Phone and Fax numbers and Postal addresses for Members of both the US House and Senate Appropriations Subcommittees on Agriculture, Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies at the following Web address (I like this particular link because it also tells the business/occupation of the member): http://web.iquest.net/ofma/apphon.htm Senate Ag Committee Members via Email: http://web.iquest.net/ofma/senate.htm House Ag. Committee Members via Email: http://web.iquest.net/ofma/aghouse.htm Senate Appropriations Subcommittee On Agriculture, Rural Development and Related Agencies Members via Email: http://web.iquest.net/ofma/hssen.htm House Subcommittee on Agriculture, Rural Developments Food and Drug Administration and Related Agencies Members via Email: http://web.iquest.net/ofma/hssen.htm Dan Glickman's Phone#: Ph. 202-720-3631 Go here http://web.iquest.net/ofma/leglink.htm to find out who your Congresspersons are and how to reach them by Phone, Fax or Post. ******************************************************************** Originally published on Sunday, May 30, 1999. St. Louis Post-Dispatch U.S. TURNS SPOTLIGHT ON GENETIC ENGINEERING "WE CAN'T FORCE-FEED CONSUMERS," AGRICULTURE SECRETARY SAYS By Bill Lambrecht Post-Dispatch Washington Bureau In the planting of genetically changed crops around the world, the U.S. government has done just about everything it can to help except drive the tractor. Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman has been one of biotechnology's leading boosters, admonishing reluctant Europeans not to stand in the way of progress and urging the acceptance of food grown using the new, American technology. But lately, Glickman has turned cautious. In St. Louis last week, he warned that the United States must pay closer attention to questions being raised around the world about genetic engineering. "We can't force-feed . . . reluctant consumers," he said. His words, along with a recent scientific finding that biotechnology may harm butterflies, are helping trigger an emerging debate in this country that could prove pivotal for the new technology and for its driving force, St. Louis-based Monsanto Co. In an interview in Washington on Friday, Glickman said biotechnology "shouldn't be a steamroller. ... Ultimately, if the consumer doesn't buy, the technology isn't worth a damn. Period." He said European concerns about the potential health and environmental effects of modified crops are taking a toll on U.S. grain exports. "There are certainly more and more questions being asked about biotechnology, and those questions must be answered," Glickman said. "They cannot be brushed off. They must be dealt with. "You can't stop progress. ... But it doesn't mean that it is written on Mount Sinai that there aren't questions that have to be answered. I believe that is the era we are entering right now." Emerging debate After years of muted concerns about biotechnology in the United States, Washington is suddenly brimming with new studies and discussions: * A White House task force will report as early as July on the prospect of labeling genetically engineered foods, the administration disclosed last week. One option is voluntary labeling to give consumers more information. * The National Academy of Sciences met last week to plan a new biotechnology review that focuses on seeds and ownership of genetic materials. An academy panel also held a public hearing last week on a study of potential risks of crops engineered to resist pests. * Glickman has resurrected a biotechnology advisory committee that will have a wide array of experts, members of the public and critics. Official notice of the committee might appear in the Federal Register as early as this week, with the first meeting held by summer. If that weren't enough new activity, wealthy foundations are considering plowing millions of dollars into a public awareness campaign that would be conducted by environmental advocacy groups. "There is a shift. It might even be a sea change," Margaret Mellon of the Union of Concerned Scientists said of the new attention in the United States to genetic engineering. Jay Byrne, a Monsanto spokesman, said he regards the attention as positive. Three government studies published this month in the United Kingdom -- by the Irish Food Authority, by a British House of Commons committee and by a British Ministry of Agriculture panel -- found no human health implications from gene-altered food. As Byrne sees it, the flurry of new studies in Washington can allay any fears that might be sprouting. "People are getting engaged in a responsible manner seeking out valid independent information from the science community on this issue," he said. Butterfly flap The emerging debates will include topics as large as corporate mergers in agriculture -- which Glickman also is warning about -- and as small as the butterfly. In a report that accelerated the biotechnology debate globally, Cornell University scientists reported 10 days ago that monarch butterflies could be threatened by certain modified crops. They found that nearly half of the caterpillars in laboratory tests died after eating the pollen of corn engineered with Bt (bacillus thuringiensis) bacteria to resist pests. With as much 25 million acres in the United States being sown with engineered corn this year, many people took notice. Unfortunately for the genetic science industry, the report dealt not with spiders or cockroaches, but with the "Bambi of the insect world," as a Washington Post headline put it. The monarch study gave people a touchstone in a complex matter that most Americans haven't thought a lot about. For European leaders, it was evidence to raise more barriers to the technology. The 15-nation European Union said it would suspend further consideration of approvals for modified corn. Austria banned cultivation of Monsanto's engineered corn, and the French ambassador said his country might revisit its past approval of a Monsanto hybrid. Those reactions could prove to be ill-considered if the next round of studies showed that cornfields are easier on monarchs than a college lab. For now, Kathryn DiMatteo, executive director of the Massachusetts-based Organic Trade Association, sees the Cornell study as galvanizing groups that have paid scant attention to genetic science. "It's getting to be critical mass," she said. Glickman shift Besides encouraging public debate, Glickman is raising eyebrows among insiders who watch the politics of genetic engineering. His public shift from cheerleader to probing realist began a month ago in a speech at Purdue University. "It's not enough to celebrate science for science's sake," Glickman said in the speech. "When it's all said and done, the public opinion poll is just as powerful a research tool as the test tube." In an interview, Glickman said he was trying to send a message not just to the American people, but to others in government. He said he remains committed to biotechnology as important both to human health and to farming. But, he added, a better job has to be done about building confidence. "There's a growing concern about what people eat, what goes in their mouths," Glickman said. Glickman surprised participants on all sides of the debate, among them Charles Benbrook, a consultant who has worked for Congress and the National Academy of Sciences since the early 1980s. When word of Glickman's all-but-ignored speech at Purdue filtered out, Benbrook said, "People's jaws dropped. ... It was probably the most dramatic turnaround in the message of a secretary of agriculture that I've seen." Fueling the debate Unlike their European counterparts, most pro-environment organizations in the United States have paid scant attention to genetic engineering. Some American groups may have been persuaded by the potential of modified crops to reduce the spraying of farm chemicals. Some groups had their plates full, while others lacked resources to pursue a complicated issue that requires scientific expertise. This lack of attention has befuddled their European counterparts but may change soon with an infusion of money from foundations. The Chicago-based Joyce Foundation is among several foundations that have been gathering information on genetic engineering for a meeting to be held next month in New York. Participants have put together an inch-thick workbook on biotechnology that they will distribute to representatives of foundations that fuel much of the work of America's environmental advocacy groups. The Joyce Foundation's Margaret O'Dell said she sees donors drawn to biotechnology for several reasons, among them concern about patenting genetic resources. "We feel that it is important to put the appropriate regulatory framework and oversights in place so that we don't find ourselves as a society jumping into a new area without understanding the implications," she said. What that might mean is new, louder opposition to biotechnology that would turn up the heat on Monsanto and its rivals. Jean Halloran is the executive director of the Consumer Policy Institute, affiliated with Consumer Reports magazine. She explained that foundation money means more organizers, media specialists and experts writing reports. "Running a campaign on issues with no money is a lot like running for Congress with no money," she said. Monsanto's Byrne said that Monsanto is happy to participate in any new talks. "All too often, this debate can be polarized by the extremes of fear or concern and those of hope," he said. "The best public service is to have an informed debate in the middle," he said. _________________________________________________ By Michael Mann €€ HELSINKI - Finland will take a very cautious approach to legislation €€ on genetically modified organisms (GMOs) during its upcoming six €€ months as EU president, Finland's environment minister has warned. €€ "Genetic engineering is really fundamental, as fundamental as nuclear €€ power, and our basic principle must be the precautionary principle," €€ Satu Hassi said, referring to the EU's policy of avoiding health €€ risks. €€ "Splitting the atom is interfering with one of the most fundamental €€ things in nature. Genetic engineering is much the same," she said in a €€ recent interview with Brussels-based reporters in Helsinki. €€ The 15-member EU is currently revamping legislation on the approval €€ and licensing of new crops and food modified by biotechnology. €€ Life science companies and exporting countries such as the United €€ States want Europe to streamline the process to make it easier to sell €€ genetically modified organisms. But green and consumer groups fear €€ such foods could damage human health and the environment and want €€ lawmakers to enact extra safeguards. €€ Hassi signalled that those wishing speedy progress may be disappointed €€ when Finland takes over the EU presidency on July 1. €€ "I would be rather strict in the procedure and be very careful with €€ GMOs. These are issues where we can only see the results of our €€ actions after a long time," she said, adding that she felt Austria and €€ Luxembourg were fully justified in introducing national restrictions €€ on certain GM crops. €€ "I'm sure there are ways of using genetic engineering which are €€ acceptable. But my feeling is that scientists have had too much power €€ in creating the legislation." €€ Hassi said she was concerned about shortcomings in EU laws on the €€ labelling of GM foods, which she said cannot guarantee opponents of €€ the technology that their food is totally free of ingredients derived €€ from GM crops. €€ Current EU president Germany wants to broker a compromise on the €€ revision of GMO licensing laws at a meeting of EU environment €€ ministers on June 24 and 25, but its plans have run into stiff €€ opposition from the EU's executive Commission and a number of €€ governments. €€ If Bonn's attempt fails, it will be up to Hassi to find a solution to €€ the problem, so that the European Parliament can give the legislation €€ its second reading in the autumn. €€ Even if Germany succeeds, GM foods and new applications for marketing €€ approvals are certain to crop up several times during Finland's first €€ ever six-month stint chairing EU business. €€ (C) Reuters Limited 1999. ______________________________________ AgBiotech World Forum New Frontiers in Agricultural Biotechnology €€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€ June 9-11, 1999 · MGM Grand · Las Vegas, NV IBC's Ag BioTech World Forum presents a premier opportunity for the agricultural biotechnology industry to meet in a productive business environment. While only a small percentage of funding is currently allocated to agbiotech research, potential developments can massively impact the global economy. Possessing the ability to supply a cross-section of industries with novel, safe, affordable and highly evolved products, agricultural biotechnology is an area expected to erupt in the next millenium. An internationally recognized faculty of researchers, regulators, financiers, legal counsel, and agbio executives have been brought together to discuss concerns, provide solutions and prepare for the industry's future. IBC along with its international partners, Agra Europe, Ag-West Biotech, SJH and Co, the Agbiotech Reporter, and Seed & Crop Digest is excited to bring you the first agbiotech conference designed to bridge the gap between important scientific advancements and big business. IBC's AG BioTech World Forum has been thoughtfully constructed to bring together agbiotech executives, venture capitalists, legal council, regulatory affairs managers and research scientists to discuss how this industry can forge ahead and increase the market for products produced through agricultural biotechnology. An unparalleled event analyzing the trends, opportunities, expectations and global impact of biotechnology on the agriculture, seed and food industries. --- Green Building Professionals Directory at http://www.greenbuilder.com/directory/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 9 05:24:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA19100 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 05:24:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA16134; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 05:12:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA16083 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 05:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([210.55.146.227]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990609091335.LISW12081.mta1-rme@default> for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 21:13:35 +1200 Message-ID: <375E3085.32F8@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 21:14:45 +1200 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow Subject: Peppering Question dock Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1099 Dear List folk Dock, sorrel, buckwheat[is a very good green crop and supplies calcium to the soil, also breaks up heavy soils.] all belong to the Polygonaceace or knot weed family.Docks are a sign of increasing acidity, Severe dock infestation is a sign of sour soil and poor drainage [hard packed soils] and very acid soils. Dock seed is viable in the soil for up to 50 years.Last year I had an old swamp turned into a pond and dock was the most prominent weed in the pond tailings this summer. Patience dock and sorrel are used as salad greens. Yellow dock is used as a cleansing, diuretic and laxative, stimulates bileflow and clears toxins. To remove docks frequent cutting is recommended to starve the roots and to prevent seeding. This year I cleaned up a 1/2 acre paddock by regular topping with a forage harvester and made compost by late summer the docks had almost disappeared. To remove single plants use a sharp spade at an angle on both sides [like wrenching plants] and remove the top 4 inches of plant very effective method repace sod and roots will die. A good book on weeds is by E E Pfeiffer,s WEEDS AND WHAT THEY TELL ISBN0-938250-04-3 Docks are a very simple weed to get rid of and a good source of calcium for the compost heap. Kindest regards Tony Robinson From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 9 12:06:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA25409 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:06:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09553; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:54:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09350 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:51:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.204.100]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:53:22 +0100 Message-ID: <375E8D29.169C@cwcom.net> Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 16:50:01 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weed id References: <01BEB19D.EE5CE600@FLYLO> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1100 Martha - I don't know much about North American weeds but, if the plant you want identified is closely related to our dock _Rumex_ (I'm surprised to find seven species occur in Britain, some rare: I believe the common weed is either _R.crispus_, _R.obtusifolius_ or hybrids between these), which Anita and I have just been discussing, I've been delighted to find that a tiny, jewel-like metallic green beetle (which I believe to be a so-called mint beetle) quickly strips the leaves to skeletons and seems to eat nothing else - not even my valued apple mint! They breed like mad and leave patches of small, elongated golden eggs on the underside of the leaves just about now. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 9 12:18:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA25662 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:18:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10977; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:07:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10571 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:04:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.135.94] (pm3bky1-135-94.intrepid.net [209.190.135.94]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA20317 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:04:13 -0400 Message-Id: <199906091604.MAA20317@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: Re: Saturn/Moon Opposition (2) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 99 11:10:02 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1101 Tony Sorry this took so long to answer but I just got caught up on my BD list reading. It is the protocol to refer to the full moon by the sign that the Sun is in, not the moon. Therefore, Easter is the Aries Full Moon and Buddha's Birthday is the Taurus Full Moon. Jeanne Mozier From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 9 12:53:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26402 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14844; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:40:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14761 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:39:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.138.131] (max14-26.stc.net [208.210.137.154]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA23966 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BEB19D.EE5CE600@FLYLO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 22:34:07 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: weed id Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1102 >I have lots of weeds, but one has me stumped. We have tons of sour dock >that makes small 'grain;' heads, and are nice to chew on the stalks, it's >not that one. This creates a basal roseatte of big rough leaves and a >central stalk that is very woody, and a ROOT. The root is massive. In the >late winter, early spring, the old woody stalks are the only thing pointing >to the roots. I have found this to be a very satisfying plant, tho! I love >to loosen the soil around it with a pitchfork and pull that humongous root >out of the ground. I don't know why but it pleases me to no end. Nothing >eats this weed, does anyone know what I'm talking about? Truthfully, I've >gotten so much fun out of pulling this critter up, my garden is cleaned of >them and now I'm eyeing the nearest field. >martha Martha, Could it be burdock? Hugh Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 10 05:03:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA12982 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 05:03:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA15573; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 04:48:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA15506 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 04:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-014.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.114]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03262 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 20:44:54 +1200 Message-ID: <000401beb31b$7f7649a0$72f631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: OFF / Fw: GEN6-6-Attn Micheal Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 20:29:51 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1103 Dear Micheal As an NZ Dairy farmer the following part of this post concerns me: >> >>June 5, 1999 >> >>Protests Over rBGH Use in New Zealand >> >>Activists Pledge to Take Action! >> >>The Steering Council (board) members of the Pesticide Action Network Asia >>and the Pacific (PAN AP) discussed the application to the New Zealand >>government for the use of rBGH (recombinant Bovine Growth Hormone) in the >>Dairy Industry, at a recent meeting in Malaysia. >> >>Members from Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, Japan, Korea and India >>representing networks of consumers, women's and environmental organizations >>across the region, strongly oppose the use of this growth hormone due to >>associated health effects - including breast and prostate cancer. >> >>"In the case of rBGH, the links to cancer, and other human health and >>safety concerns demands added vigilance. People have the right to know >>that they could be seriously jeopardizing their health, and that of their >>children", commented Anwar Fazal, PAN AP Steering Council Member, and >>Chairperson for the World Alliance for Breastfeeding Action (WABA). >> >>Since New Zealand dairy products are commonly sold and consumed in many of >>these countries, the organizations have pledged to organize actions - >>including boycotts of New Zealand dairy products - should the registration >>proceed. I am also invited to speak to a number of public meetings on Genetic Engineering. I have today endeavoured to confirm the report you have posted. no government body here at this stage has confirmed that there is an application for the use of rBGH in this country. How reliable is your source, and can you think of where we can independently confirm the PAN AP statement? I would be grateful for any assistance you can give me as one of the other speakers in the meeting next week is a Director of the NZ Dairy Board. Regards Gareth Bodle Whangarei NZ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 10 11:52:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18904 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07057; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06738 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:28:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d156.infoserve.net [199.175.157.156]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA24155 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000d01beb356$64a2c1e0$9c9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: OFF / GEN6-8 Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:31:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1104 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 8:28 AM Subject: GEN6-8 >Reuters, >Tesco removes GM ingredient from pizza >UK: June 7, 1999 > LONDON - British supermarket chain Tesco Plc said it was remaking some >of its own label deep-pan pizzas after tests showed they contained >genetically modified ingredients. A Tesco spokesman told BBC television >suppliers had assured Tesco the product was GM free, but laboratory >analysis showed traces of GM soya. > >..... > >This Is London - >Evening Standard Edition >Monday June 7, >First GM farmer destroys his crops >By Geraint Smith > >The farmer who agreed to having the country's first large-scale trial of >genetically modified crops on his land has destroyed them with >weedkiller. Captain Fred Barker says the trustees of his family farm at >Hannington in Wiltshire forced him to end the trial because they are >opposed to the Government-run experiment and were unhappy that other crops >on the farm were to lose their organic status because of the trial. > >....... > >Message from Michael Hansen of the Consumer's Union (USA) > >Subject: PAN AP's New Zealand rBGH Campaign Bears Fruit! > >PAN AP is Pesticide Action Network Asia Pacific. > >Update June 7th, 1999 >----------------------------------------------------------------- >PAN AP's New Zealand rBGH Campaign Bears Fruit! > > >Dear Friends, > >As we announced in the previous Update and Information shared on PAN AP's >Campaign to deter the registration of the genetically engineered Bovine >Growth Hormone (rBGH - also known as rBST), the Animals Remedies Board was >to meet on June 4th to discuss and decide on this issue. > > The June 4th Meeting of the Animal Remedies Board > >The Animals Remedies Board (ARB) did meet on the morning on June 4th, 1999 >in Wellington, New Zealand. However, the Board - which is a statutory body >set up via an act within the New Zealand Parliament - did not make a >definitive decision on whether or not to register the hormone for use in >the country. As such NO decision has been taken on this matter. While it >is unclear at this when a decision will be made, one is expected later in >the year. > >PAN AP has learnt that the meeting discussed the mounting resistance to the >possible registration of the drug. The official letter of concern from PAN >AP, as well as numerous letters of concern and protest from PAN AP >partners, were tabled at the meeting. > >Significantly on June 5th, the New Zealand Herald carried a news story >entiled" No Go for Cattle Hormone" in which it reported that "Elanco Animal >Health, the animal remedy division of Auckland-based Eli Lilly NZ, says it >will stop trying to register in New Zealand a controversial synthetic >cattle hormone used overseas to boost milk production. > >Green Party MP Jeanette Fitzsimons, who has been a vocal opponent of the >hormone, widely used in the United States though banned in Europe and >Canada, said the announcement was a triumph for advocates of safe food". > >....... >The Ottawa Citizen >June 08, 1999, > It's our right to know what's being put into our food >By Donna Hiscott > >In the article written by Charles, Prince of Wales (''The false horn of >plenty,'' June 3), I feel the most salient point he makes is that the so- >called benefits of biotechnology seem to be limited to the people who own >the technology. These people are trying to sell us on the idea that we >will all benefit from the genetic engineering of our food supply, >especially the poor and undernourished of the world. > >The Consumers Right to Know Association based in Ottawa has signatures from >35,000 people across Canada who do not agree. We do not want our food >''made better'' so that certain investors can make a big profit. We are >upholding our legal right to know what is in our food and how it has been >processed. We want mandatory labelling and long-term testing of all >generically engineered food. > >We like our food as nature intended, preferably without added pesticides, >but at least in its genetically original form. We do not feel you can >improve on nature in the lab. > >Prince Charles is a spokesman for natural, organic food and a clean >environment. We respect him for this work. But our own people -- David >Suzuki and many, many environmental activists -- can speak just as well to >the issues. Our government and our retailers are not listening to us. The >old adage, ''A prophet is nor heard in his own country'' is so true. > >........ > >THE NATIONAL MAGAZINE (Canada) >CBC-NW >Tuesday, June 8, 1999 >TIME 21:27:00 ET >HOST HANA GARTNER > >GUESTS: >MURRAY OLIVER, CBC Saskatchewan Reporter >PERCY SCHMEISER, Farmer >RANDY CHRISTENSON, Monsanto, Regional Director, Western Canada >GARY PAPPENFOOT, Mustard, Peterson, Humbolot Flour Mills >EDWARD ZILINSKI, Farmer; >MRS. KRAM, Farmer > >TITLE Blowin' in the wind > >HANA GARTNER: Tonight: "Blowin' In The Wind." > >UNIDENTIFIED: What I believe is happening to farmers is wrong. > >GARTNER: The little seeds that have turned this into a battlefield. "Lord >of New Brunswick." > >BERNARD LORD / NEW BRUNSWICK PREMIER: It's difficult to be premier, no >matter how old you are. > >GARTNER: An interview with Canada's newest premier. The new plan for peace >in Kosovo. We'll hear from this former U.S. ambassador to the United >Nations, and a supporter of Slobodan Milosevic. > >GARTNER: Hello. Our first story tonight is a modern day tale of David and >Goliath. It pits a Saskatchewan farmer against a giant bio-tech >multinational, and it shows just how far that company will go to protect >its position in the burgeoning market for genetically altered crops. Here >is Murray Oliver of CBC Saskatchewan with "Blowin' In The Wind." > >MURRAY OLIVER: Percy Schmeiser has spent 50 years farming this land near >Bruno, Saskatchewan. Now suddenly, Schmeiser is fighting maybe the >strangest battle in the history of agriculture. > >PERCY SCHMEISER / FARMER: My grandfather and my father homesteaded here, >and there was no such thing as chemical companies or basically no seed >companies. They were free and independent. > >OLIVER: Schmeiser learned a long time ago that the wind is often a farmer's >worst enemy; wind blows the seeds and pollen of weeds into farm fields, >choking out crops. But now the wind may have brought a new threat to >Schmeiser's farm, forcing him to fight for control of the seeds planted >beneath his feet. Schmeiser has picked a fight with the biggest boy on the >block -- he's battling the world's largest agro-chemical company, Monsanto. > >OLIVER: Monsanto makes this famous weed killer, called "Roundup." Spray it >onto a field and it kills everything growing there. But now Monsanto has >genetically engineered a canola seed so that "Roundup" doesn't hurt it. >That means you can spray "Roundup" herbicide over an entire field, kill all >the weeds growing there and not hurt your canola crops - - as long as it >comes from Monsanto's special seed. > >OLIVER: Many Canadian farmers want the special canola seeds containing >Monsanto's DNA. But while farmers can buy the special seed, Monsanto keeps >the rights to the DNA itself. After all, that's what makes the seed special >and that's where Monsanto makes its money. But farmers traditionally plant >their fields using seeds saved from their last year's crop. Just like in >human beings, the DNA of seeds are passed along from generation to >generation. > >OLIVER: A farmer could buy Monsanto's special seed once, then never have to >pay for it again; all the benefits without the cost. So the problem for >Monsanto is protecting its investment. In the brave new world of >agriculture, it's Monsanto versus the farmer. Farmers buying Monsanto's >seed must sign a contract promising to buy fresh seed every year. Then they >must let Monsanto inspect their fields for cheating. Monsanto's regional >director in western Canada is Randy Christenson. He says the company has >got to be tough. > >RANDY CHRISTENSON / MONSANTO, REG'L DIR., WESTERN CANADA: We, of course, >put like years, years and years of research and time into developing this >technology and so for us to be able to recoup our investment, we have to be >able to be paid for that. > >OLIVER: Percy Schmeiser says he's never used Monsanto's seed. He saves the >seeds from his own crops, then replants them in the spring. But Monsanto >investigators say they've found Monsanto DNA in Schmeiser's crops. Monsanto >says Schmeiser never paid for the rights to use its DNA. Now they're suing >Schmeiser for the money. > >SCHMEISER: It's very upsetting and nerve-wracking to have a multi-giant >national corporation come after you. I don't have the resources to fight >this. > >OLIVER: Monsanto first got a tip about Schmeiser on its toll-free >snitch-line. Monsanto asks farmers to turn-in their neighbours if they >suspect them of growing the seed without paying. Monsanto uses private >investigators from this Saskatoon firm (Robinson Investigations Ltd.) to >check out the tips. Investigators patrolling grid roads took crop samples >from Schmeiser's fields to check for Monsanto's DNA. Monsanto doesn't >apologize for playing hardball, but the Monsanto representative insists the >whole process is very friendly. Monsanto calls its investigations "audits." > >CHRISTENSON: Yes, we do have a group that do audit -- they do make farm >visits, but they do it in a way that is extremely respectful to the >farmers. And in fact I'd encourage you to talk to the farmers that have >gone through it. And they're very comfortable with what we're doing. We >never go on their property, never without their permission. > >OLIVER: But court documents show Monsanto ordered its investigators to >trespass into Schmeiser's fields and collect samples. Then Monsanto agents >paid a secret visit to the company which processes Schmeiser's seeds for >planting. Gary Pappenfoot was the manager. > >GARY PAPPENFOOT / MUSTARD, PETERSON, HUMBOLOT FLOUR MILLS: We were >approached by someone in Monsanto asking if Percy had some seed treated >there. We said there was. They asked for a sample. I'd asked my superior in >Saskatoon whether it was okay to give a sample. He said it was, so we did. > >OLIVER: Monsanto says Schmeiser has stolen its DNA. In fact, Monsanto has >accused dozens of farmers of growing the special seed without paying for >it. The problem is, nature has been moving DNA around for thousands of >years; Monsanto's is just the latest. > >SCHMEISER: It'll blow in the wind. You can't control it. You can't just put >say up a fence line and say that's where it stops; it might end up 20 >miles, 10 miles. > >OLIVER: Schmeiser is backed up by some impressive research. Scientists from >Agriculture Canada say wind can blow seeds or pollen between fields, >meaning the DNA of crops in one field often mixes with another. Seeds or >pollen can also be blown off uncovered trucks and off farm equipment. But >Monsanto seems to be saying it's up to farmers to dig out any Monsanto >crops blowing into their fields. > >CHRISTENSON: The question on pollen flow is not something that's new. And >the tools that are available to the farmers -- and the farmers know their >property; they know their crops; they've been managing this same situation >for as long as they've been farming. > >OLIVER: Without a microscope, there's no way to tell regular crops from >crops carrying the Monsanto DNA. This means even the seed farmers keep from >their own crops may contain Monsanto's altered gene. > >UNIDENTIFIED: Farmers should have some rights of their own. > >OLIVER: Last year, Edward Zilinski of Micado traded seeds with a farmer >from Prince Albert. This is an old farming tradition. But the seeds >Zilinski got in return had Monsanto's DNA. Now Monsanto says Zilinski and >his wife owe them over $28,000 in penalties. > >EDWARD ZILINSKI / FARMER: I saw a plane come over along there. > >OLIVER: Monsanto's heavy-hand is sparking the anger of many farmers in >western Canada. The Kram family in Raymore say planes and a helicopter >buzzed their fields. The couple say agents dropped weed killer on their >canola field to see if the crops had the Monsanto gene. Monsanto says they >had absolutely nothing to do with it. The Krams think otherwise. > >MRS. KRAM / FARMER: We are thoroughly disgusted the way things are going. >Who put the canola in? It is the farmer. It doesn't belong to Monsanto or >anybody else. And I don't see anybody else's name on the titles of these, >of all the land we own. It's my husband and myself. Nobody else. Thoroughly >pissed off. > >OLIVER: For his part, Percy Schmeiser believes Monsanto hopes to force >farmers into accepting genetically engineered products. Schmeiser is >standing up to Monsanto in court. > >SCHMEISER: I'm going to fight and fight and fight, because what I believe >is happening to farmers is wrong. And I'm fighting this not only for >myself, but for my farmer friends, for my children and my grandchildren. > >CHRISTENSON: As you move to adopt new technology, whether it was going from >the horse to the car, there was a great deal of controversy on how to deal >with certain issues, questions being asked. > >OLIVER: But the real question is this: can Monsanto or anybody really >control the work of nature? The answer could determine who controls the >future of world farming. For the National Magazine, I'm Murray Oliver in >Bruno, Saskatchewan. > >GARTNER: If you would like to know more about this story, check out the >National's Web site. The address is: >www.tv.cbc.ca/national. > >GARTNER: Now don't go anywhere because when we come back, I would like to >introduce you to a young man with a mission. Bernard Lord is only >33-years-old, but he just won New Brunswick's biggest job: premier. > >BERNARD LORD / NEW BRUNSWICK PREMIER: What's important is not my age, but >my values and abilities. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) > >*** END OF DOCUMENT *** > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 10 13:59:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22436 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 13:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19782; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 13:46:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19666 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 13:44:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.161.131]) by pop1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990610174400.MHHU3998522.pop1-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 05:44:00 +1200 Message-ID: <375FFA03.708@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 05:46:43 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: rBGH in NZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1105 Gareth I am sure i heard on the news that an application had been made to ERMA to introduce this hormone into NZ dairy cattle. It is about three weeks or so ago. I will ask around and see if I can find more exact info. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 10 22:18:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA04420 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 22:18:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24527; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 22:04:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24304 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 22:03:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-049.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.149]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01971 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:14:43 +1200 Message-ID: <000c01beb3ac$a1ea8280$95f631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: rBGH in NZ Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 13:49:22 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1106 Dear Glen, Looks like Micheals GEN6-8 has the enswers to the question Cheers Gareth. -----Original Message----- From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, 11 June 1999 05:47 AM Subject: rBGH in NZ >Gareth >I am sure i heard on the news that an application had been made to ERMA >to introduce this hormone into NZ dairy cattle. It is about three weeks >or so ago. I will ask around and see if I can find more exact info. > >Glen A. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 12 06:22:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA01411 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 06:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA02171; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 06:08:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA02053 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 06:06:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.109] (pm3shep1-163-50.intrepid.net [209.190.163.50]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA03975 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 06:06:28 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 06:09:03 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Biodynamic Food Bumpersticker Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1107 Dear BD Now! Member: For a very ltd time I can make available to you a 5x7 inch vinyl bumper sticker which promotes the concept of biodynamically produced food. Green on white and a good companion with the 'No Farms, No Food' bumper stickers, this one says "Will Work for Biodynamic Food" (tastefully small on the bottom of the sticker, it goes on to say "Claymont Farm CSA, Charles Town, WV"). If you send me a SASE (outside of the US: SAE + IRC(s)), I'll send you up to 3 of these stickers. (If you want more than 5, send the SASE and $1 for each sticker.) Don't forget the Mid-Atlantic Biodyamic Farming and Gardening Conference,coming up fast on October 1-3 in Charles Town, WV. Hugh Lovel, Hugh Courtney, Jerry Brunetti, Joel Salatin, Sally Fallon, Eugene Canales and Joey Korn are featured presenters. Please email me to make certain you are on our mailing list. Enjoy the day! Allan Balliett moderator, BD Now! Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA BIODYNAMICS Now! temp mailing address: POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 12 07:50:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA02006 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 07:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA04926; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 07:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA04748 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 07:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp272.cy-net.net [208.21.195.81]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA19198 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 06:34:44 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEB49D.996D60E0@FLYLO>; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 06:34:18 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEB49D.996D60E0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Biodynamic Food Bumpersticker Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 06:28:44 -0500 Encoding: 3 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1108 Allan, where could we get the 'no farms, no food' stickers? I'm going to send for yours, but I agree, they'd go good together. martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 12 13:58:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA04354 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 13:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21916; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 13:44:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21703 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 13:40:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.181.103] ("port 2048"@[148.233.181.103]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FD8008DR83DNL@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 12:16:35 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 12:22:56 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Biodynamic Food Bumpersticker In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1109 >Dear BD Now! Member: > >For a very ltd time I can make available to you a 5x7 inch vinyl bumper >sticker which promotes the concept of biodynamically produced food. Green >on white and a good companion with the 'No Farms, No Food' bumper stickers, >this one says "Will Work for Biodynamic Food" (tastefully small on the >bottom of the sticker, it goes on to say "Claymont Farm CSA, Charles Town, >WV"). > >If you send me a SASE (outside of the US: SAE + IRC(s)), I'll send you up >to 3 of these stickers. (If you want more than 5, send the SASE and $1 for >each sticker.) > >Don't forget the Mid-Atlantic Biodyamic Farming and Gardening >Conference,coming up fast on October 1-3 in Charles Town, WV. Hugh Lovel, >Hugh Courtney, Jerry Brunetti, Joel Salatin, Sally Fallon, Eugene Canales >and Joey Korn are featured presenters. Please email me to make certain you >are on our mailing list. > >Enjoy the day! > Dear Allan: What is IRC ? What mailing list ? Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 12 14:51:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA05229 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24506; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:39:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24435 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:37:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.21] (pm3shep1-163-21.intrepid.net [209.190.163.21]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24573 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:37:59 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BEB49D.996D60E0@FLYLO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:38:34 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: RE: Biodynamic Food Bumpersticker Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1110 >Allan, where could we get the 'no farms, no food' stickers? I'm going to >send for yours, but I agree, they'd go good together. >martha The No Farms, No Foods stickers are at most af conferences. We were working on one that said "No Farms, No Anthropops," but a preliminary survey indicated that most people didn't immediately understand what our position was. The more accessible "No Farms, No Beer!" seems to make sense to most of the people I hang out with. "What, no beer? We gotta save those farms now!!!" (If you know what I mean!!) ;-) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 12 14:51:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA05246 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24567; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:40:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24440 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:37:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.21] (pm3shep1-163-21.intrepid.net [209.190.163.21]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24585 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:38:01 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:39:58 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Biodynamic Food Bumpersticker Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1111 >Dear Allan: > >What is IRC ? > >What mailing list ? IRC = international reply coupon. In Mexico, buy one from your postmaster and send it to me in your envelope. My postmaster will affix US postage to send your stkrs back to you. the mailing list is an ad hoc one to keep interested parties up to daton the mid-atlantic BD conference. Thanks! -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 12 15:50:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05835 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:50:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27542; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:38:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27493 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:37:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.153]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990612193942.UESC2926.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 07:39:42 +1200 Message-ID: <3762B77D.3759@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 07:39:41 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Astrality and plants - part 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1112 Astrality and Plants - Part 3 The next part of looking into the role of the Astrality in plants has proven the most difficult. It is relatively straightforward to understand the Astrality working from the outside of the plant inwards or onto and that its activity is encouraged by the presence of nitrogen. However we are presented with the situation that nitrogen is present in most plants and in many cases is vital for the healthy growth of most plants, however these plants are understood not to incarnate the astral body. The exception is the legume family, where nitrogen is directly drawn from the atmosphere and drawn downwards into the soil. In most other plants we must look for the paths of nitrogen as coming from the soil moving upwards into the sites and activities it inhabits. The first picture this provides is that nitrogen and Astrality, while related, can exist independently of each other. Or do they? Or is it that where nitrogen does exist in plant growth its activity appears as a surrogate astrality process working through the light ether of the etheric body? We find nitrogen is several places. All plants which photosynthesis make use of nitrogen in the formation of chlorophyll, IU (I understand) small deposits of protein appear in many plant leaves, while nearly all seeds contain protein as well. Protein formation is the hallmark of nitrogen, while poison formation is the other. So the question arises for me as to what are the paths of the spiritual activity standing behind nitrogen in its journey through plant growth. It is relatively easy to appreciate the Astrality as an external auric phenomena surrounding plants from above and as such a inhabitant of the 'belly of the Agricultural individual' we are presented with in lecture 2. In lecture 3 and 4 we are also told the Astrality works into the soil as well, with the fixation of nitrogen from plant residue and microorganism activity we can see how it can be carried into the Earth to surround the whole plant from outside. Soil insect attack is but another manifestation of an unbalanced Astral activity in the soil. Lecture 3 tells us of the importance of nitrogen in plant growth and outlines how the oxygen necessary for growth is 'pulled' to the carbon by the nitrogen, however in such a manner that neither proteins or poisons are formed. On the periodic table nitrogen stands inbetween oxygen and carbon. on the same ring. This nitrogen we assume comes into the plant from the soil as part of a anion cation complex and in doing so attracts oxygen, which in turn can then become part of the most common CHO complexes of carbohydrate and sugars. Interestingly in these most common of plant substances nitrogen does not feature. Where it does feature significantly in plant growth is part of the chlorophyll molecule. This relatively large molecule is produced as a result of several processes all meeting together. First there are salts coming from the earth most notably magnesium and nitrogen which is then joined with carbon dioxide from the atmosphere , in the presence of light. With light, chlorophyll develops, This sees a magnesium atom ringed by four atoms of nitrogen followed by a complex of CH&O atoms making a total of no less than 137 atoms. Without light the Mg combines with the carbon dioxide and some oxygen from water to produce MgCO3 + H2 ( Living Energies, C Coates - Pg 220). Here the carbonated Mg is far less available than the nitrated form present in Chlorophyll. In the lightless grass IU this leaves quantities of loose nitrogen ( and hydrogen) in the plant which then causes grass staggers in sheep and cattle. It is commonly understood that grass staggers occurs from young lush immature spring growth, especially on artificially fertilised pasture. Part of the reasoning here is that the grass has grown quickly in an insufficient light environment, so the grass has not 'matured'. In short the nitrogen has not been taken up by the Mg and is present in the plant in a volatile state and is available to create a poisoning effect evident in the disturbed Astral reaction of convulsive shaking of the afflicted animal. The reduced magnesium suggesting the nervous system is the site of this 'astral invasion'. We should also note there is a greater percentage of Hydrogen being released into the system as opposed to oxygen given off from photosynthesis. This in turn influences the Ego, Etheric ratio of any given food which if taken to an extreme will encourage death. Other nitrogen activities in plants show in amino acid formation and the seeding both processes which need a significant degree of light and warmth to reach their fulfilment. In lecture 3, we are told how when the nitrogen enters the plant it changes from dead nitrogen to an alive nitrogen. Similarly when the light ether enters the Earth it becomes a bound form, which IU then works on the plant from below. This process as indicated by Malcolm G. earlier, suggests the nitrogen and light is taken up by the etheric body processes within the plant. Given the need for (Free) light if nitrogen is to function adequately, we can imagine it is the bound light ether which has a special affinity for nitrogen inside the plant. We can see though that this bound light still needs external free light for the nitrogen to reach its optimum goal in photosynthesis. In earlier parts of this essay I attempted to outline how we can see the workings of light and Astrality on plant form. Leaf indentation, flowering and the nutritive quality of protein formation in seeds are manifestations of and influenced by the strength of Astrality working onto the plant from outside. If we alter the balance of the etheric forces moving upwards and the Astrality moving downwards - eg. simply by adding or subtracting water or light - we alter the manifestation of all these things. Interestingly this picture is very similar to that presented to us about Calcium and Silica in lecture 1 and 6 and in the working of 500 and 501 at the end of lecture 4. This strongly suggests the relationship of the etheric body to calcium and the astrality to Silica. The question is though which Calcium and which Silica process. As we have suggested earlier the Ca & Si processes are actually a fourfold activity. The etheric forces which originate from Brahma beyond the Cosmic egg (Lovel) are concentrated in the Earth atmosphere before being drawn and held close to and into the Earth. We are told in Lec. 2 how this is achieved through the incorporation of humus into the soil. From here it combines with the Earthly calcium processes held in lime and the Cosmic silica processes held in the mineral silica to begin moving upwards, with the aid of clay. This etheric / calcium activity brings bulk and size to the plant. We have identified the calcium process involved in this as the Cosmic Calcium as it is drawn from the atmospheric homeopathic calcium and incorporated into the humus from both old plants and directly into the soil from this source. As this upward thrust moves away from the Earth it is met by the Astrality. Leaf forms change and indent, flowering is ignited, sugars and essential oils begin to be produced and fruit gain food value. All of these activities are increased through the spraying of 501. Light is increased around the plant and the Astrality can work more strongly. As RS tells us at the very end of lecture 4, 501 increases the downward movement of force while 500 increases those forces coming upward from the earth. From this, and the lec. 2 statements about how silica sand facilitates the terrestrial silica processes we can determine that 501 works strongly with the empowerment of the Astrality. On many occasions I have noted an increase in pest attack after spraying 501. This has become one of the signs of wether I have overstepped the balance point. All this can be altered by strengthening the upthrusting etheric forces. Leaf metamorphsis can be reversed, fruit stop ripening, alkaloid levels decrease and flowering stops. Plant form then is an interplay between the up moving etheric/physical/ego complex bounded, contained and sometimes constricted by the astrality. AIUI, With poisonous plants we have a slight variation on the above theme. We have the interesting picture of the astral body incarnating more deeply into the plant, from the outside inwards. These plants though do not apparently take nitrogen in from the atmosphere. The nitrogen they use still comes from the soil. (which seems strange to me given air has 80% nitrogen in it and air is taken in through stomata). We can surmise though this nitrogen is picked up directly by the Astrality and developed into alkaloids. Being so directly related to the astrality these nitrogen alkaloids are not cushioned by ( the astrality working through ) the etheric body and so do not contain as much oxygen which would keep them in the sphere of proteins. Even with eatable plant proteins, these can devolve into cyanide based poisons as they denature as the oxygen and hydrogen are removed. In summary , my aim of this essay has been to indicate the role the Astral body and its environmental counterparts, terrestrial silica and light, plays as forces working onto the upward forces and that without it many of the plant forms, nutritious fruit and medicines we have today would not be there. Plant growth occurs in between the activities from above and below and that as biodynamic growers we need to provide the means by which they can work harmoniously, so that plants can unfold to their fullest potential. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jun 13 07:27:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA11461 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 07:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA25682; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 07:14:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand.global.net.uk (sand.global.net.uk [194.126.82.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA25608 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 07:12:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcfs14a01.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.142.208] helo=raithby.globalnet.co.uk) by sand.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 10t8CC-0002Nt-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 12:13:00 +0100 Message-ID: <37638D18.1C25C95F@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 11:51:04 +0100 From: ALISON EADES X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Astrality and plants - part 3 References: <3762B77D.3759@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1113 Dear Glen Just a quick note to let you know how much I appreciate all your explanations and essays that you post to the group. I can't say I follow everything but it always helps me to get a better feel of what's really going on on the land. Alison Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > Astrality and Plants - Part 3 > > The next part of looking into the role of the Astrality in plants has > proven the most difficult. It is relatively straightforward to > understand the Astrality working from the outside of the plant inwards > or onto and that its activity is encouraged by the presence of nitrogen. > However we are presented with the situation that nitrogen is present in > most plants and in many cases is vital for the healthy growth of most > plants, however these plants are understood not to incarnate the astral > body. The exception is the legume family, where nitrogen is directly > drawn from the atmosphere and drawn downwards into the soil. In most > other plants we must look for the paths of nitrogen as coming from the > soil moving upwards into the sites and activities it inhabits. > > The first picture this provides is that nitrogen and Astrality, while > related, can exist independently of each other. Or do they? Or is it > that where nitrogen does exist in plant growth its activity appears as a > surrogate astrality process working through the light ether of the > etheric body? > > We find nitrogen is several places. All plants which photosynthesis > make use of nitrogen in the formation of chlorophyll, IU (I understand) > small deposits of protein appear in many plant leaves, while nearly all > seeds contain protein as well. Protein formation is the hallmark of > nitrogen, while poison formation is the other. So the question arises > for me as to what are the paths of the spiritual activity standing > behind nitrogen in its journey through plant growth. > > It is relatively easy to appreciate the Astrality as an external auric > phenomena surrounding plants from above and as such a inhabitant of the > 'belly of the Agricultural individual' we are presented with in lecture > 2. In lecture 3 and 4 we are also told the Astrality works into the > soil as well, with the fixation of nitrogen from plant residue and > microorganism activity we can see how it can be carried into the Earth > to surround the whole plant from outside. Soil insect attack is but > another manifestation of an unbalanced Astral activity in the soil. > > Lecture 3 tells us of the importance of nitrogen in plant growth and > outlines how the oxygen necessary for growth is 'pulled' to the carbon > by the nitrogen, however in such a manner that neither proteins or > poisons are formed. On the periodic table nitrogen stands inbetween > oxygen and carbon. on the same ring. This nitrogen we assume comes into > the plant from the soil as part of a anion cation complex and in doing > so attracts oxygen, which in turn can then become part of the most > common CHO complexes of carbohydrate and sugars. Interestingly in these > most common of plant substances nitrogen does not feature. Where it does > feature significantly in plant growth is part of the chlorophyll > molecule. This relatively large molecule is produced as a result of > several processes all meeting together. First there are salts coming > from the earth most notably magnesium and nitrogen which is then joined > with carbon dioxide from the atmosphere , in the presence of light. > With light, chlorophyll develops, This sees a magnesium atom ringed by > four atoms of nitrogen followed by a complex of CH&O atoms making a > total of no less than 137 atoms. Without light the Mg combines with the > carbon dioxide and some oxygen from water to produce MgCO3 + H2 ( Living > Energies, C Coates - Pg 220). Here the carbonated Mg is far less > available than the nitrated form present in Chlorophyll. In the > lightless grass IU this leaves quantities of loose nitrogen ( and > hydrogen) in the plant which then causes grass staggers in sheep and > cattle. It is commonly understood that grass staggers occurs from young > lush immature spring growth, especially on artificially fertilised > pasture. Part of the reasoning here is that the grass has grown quickly > in an insufficient light environment, so the grass has not 'matured'. In > short the nitrogen has not been taken up by the Mg and is present in the > plant in a volatile state and is available to create a poisoning effect > evident in the disturbed Astral reaction of convulsive shaking of the > afflicted animal. The reduced magnesium suggesting the nervous system is > the site of this 'astral invasion'. We should also note there is a > greater percentage of Hydrogen being released into the system as opposed > to oxygen given off from photosynthesis. This in turn influences the > Ego, Etheric ratio of any given food which if taken to an extreme will > encourage death. > > Other nitrogen activities in plants show in amino acid formation and the > seeding both processes which need a significant degree of light and > warmth to reach their fulfilment. > > In lecture 3, we are told how when the nitrogen enters the plant it > changes from dead nitrogen to an alive nitrogen. Similarly when the > light ether enters the Earth it becomes a bound form, which IU then > works on the plant from below. This process as indicated by Malcolm G. > earlier, suggests the nitrogen and light is taken up by the etheric body > processes within the plant. Given the need for (Free) light if nitrogen > is to function adequately, we can imagine it is the bound light ether > which has a special affinity for nitrogen inside the plant. We can see > though that this bound light still needs external free light for the > nitrogen to reach its optimum goal in photosynthesis. > > In earlier parts of this essay I attempted to outline how we can see the > workings of light and Astrality on plant form. Leaf indentation, > flowering and the nutritive quality of protein formation in seeds are > manifestations of and influenced by the strength of Astrality working > onto the plant from outside. If we alter the balance of the etheric > forces moving upwards and the Astrality moving downwards - eg. simply by > adding or subtracting water or light - we alter the manifestation of > all these things. Interestingly this picture is very similar to that > presented to us about Calcium and Silica in lecture 1 and 6 and in the > working of 500 and 501 at the end of lecture 4. This strongly suggests > the relationship of the etheric body to calcium and the astrality to > Silica. The question is though which Calcium and which Silica process. > As we have suggested earlier the Ca & Si processes are actually a > fourfold activity. > > The etheric forces which originate from Brahma beyond the Cosmic egg > (Lovel) are concentrated in the Earth atmosphere before being drawn and > held close to and into the Earth. We are told in Lec. 2 how this is > achieved through the incorporation of humus into the soil. From here it > combines with the Earthly calcium processes held in lime and the Cosmic > silica processes held in the mineral silica to begin moving upwards, > with the aid of clay. This etheric / calcium activity brings bulk and > size to the plant. We have identified the calcium process involved in > this as the Cosmic Calcium as it is drawn from the atmospheric > homeopathic calcium and incorporated into the humus from both old plants > and directly into the soil from this source. > > As this upward thrust moves away from the Earth it is met by the > Astrality. Leaf forms change and indent, flowering is ignited, sugars > and essential oils begin to be produced and fruit gain food value. All > of these activities are increased through the spraying of 501. Light is > increased around the plant and the Astrality can work more strongly. As > RS tells us at the very end of lecture 4, 501 increases the downward > movement of force while 500 increases those forces coming upward from > the earth. From this, and the lec. 2 statements about how silica sand > facilitates the terrestrial silica processes we can determine that 501 > works strongly with the empowerment of the Astrality. On many occasions > I have noted an increase in pest attack after spraying 501. This has > become one of the signs of wether I have overstepped the balance point. > All this can be altered by strengthening the upthrusting etheric forces. > Leaf metamorphsis can be reversed, fruit stop ripening, alkaloid levels > decrease and flowering stops. Plant form then is an interplay between > the up moving etheric/physical/ego complex bounded, contained and > sometimes constricted by the astrality. > > AIUI, With poisonous plants we have a slight variation on the above > theme. We have the interesting picture of the astral body incarnating > more deeply into the plant, from the outside inwards. These plants > though do not apparently take nitrogen in from the atmosphere. The > nitrogen they use still comes from the soil. (which seems strange to me > given air has 80% nitrogen in it and air is taken in through stomata). > We can surmise though this nitrogen is picked up directly by the > Astrality and developed into alkaloids. Being so directly related to the > astrality these nitrogen alkaloids are not cushioned by ( the astrality > working through ) the etheric body and so do not contain as much oxygen > which would keep them in the sphere of proteins. Even with eatable plant > proteins, these can devolve into cyanide based poisons as they denature > as the oxygen and hydrogen are removed. > > In summary , my aim of this essay has been to indicate the role the > Astral body and its environmental counterparts, terrestrial silica and > light, plays as forces working onto the upward forces and that without > it many of the plant forms, nutritious fruit and medicines we have today > would not be there. Plant growth occurs in between the activities from > above and below and that as biodynamic growers we need to provide the > means by which they can work harmoniously, so that plants can unfold to > their fullest potential. > > Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 14 01:21:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA20692 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 01:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA10569; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 01:04:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA10412 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 01:00:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xtra.co.nz ([203.96.101.60]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with ESMTP id <19990614050246.GBOP2926.mta2-rme@xtra.co.nz> for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:02:46 +1200 Message-ID: <37648B29.57E358E9@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:55:05 +1200 From: eaccess Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: eaccess X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNow Subject: Astrality and Plants - the facts. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1114 Reading once again, one of the the main aims of this list:- "To facilitate intelligent and adult conversation about all topics related to and inspired by Rudolf Steiner's course in agriculture" I would like to offer some references related to Rudolf Steiner to help towards an understanding of the Astral World and the Astrality of Plants. To obtain a clear understanding, it is necessary to realise that the Astral World is a spiritual dimension, one of 3 higher than the Physical World, and that various aspects of Life, Form and Consciousness can work into this Astral World as a purely Spiritual Dimension, which is non-spatial,and has a different form of time. (1) Rudolf Steiner elaborates on the way in which Man, Animal, Plant and Mineral rank and interact with their Ego, Astral Body, Etheric Body and Physical Body, in relation to these three higher Spiritual Worlds as well as the Physical World. (2) Other Beings, for example, those of which Rudolf Steiner calls the Elemental and Elementary Kingdoms, work into the Physical, Etheric and Spiritual Dimensions in more complicated ways. (3) It is essential to realise that the Astral Body and the Astral World can be quite different both Spatially and Dimensionally, depending on which Kingdom of Nature is involved. For example, in Man and Animals, their Astral Body as a foundation of consciousness, is in the Physical World. Man has an individualised Ego in the Physical World, but The Ego or "Group Souls" of various animal groups is in the Astral World. The working of the Animal Group Ego can be seen in the Physical World only in an indirect way, e.g. . the co-ordinated flight of flocks of birds, and particularly in the seasonal migration patterns of various animal species .The Ego or Group Soul of Animals is working non-spatially, but in a spatially limited way. From the Astral world, the Animal group soul must have a physical carrier to work with, it is limited by the Nitrogen atmospheric envelope of the earth. As Steiner says in Lecture 3 - (p.45) Agriculture " This after all is the peculiarity of all that we have on Earth, the Spiritual here must always have physical carriers. Then the materialists come, and take only the physical carrier into account, forgetting the Spiritual which it carries...." For plants, they only have their Physical Body and their Etheric Body in the Physical World. Their Astral Body is in the Astral World which is Non-Spatial. Hence any ideas about the working of the Astral Body of plants in the Physical world have no basis in fact. The Astral body of Plants cannot "Surround it" or interact in any way, to be a cause of either disease or insect attack, quite simply because it is not in the Physical World. This does not mean that the Astral World does not "touch" the plant - Steiner remarks in lecture 3 - (p.48) , that "the plant would never blossom if the astral did not touch it from outside" - but a clear understanding must be developed as to how this works, it is only through "warmth" or more exactly the working of "warmth ether" in the fruiting process, that this occours .The "Warmth ether" being the boundary - so to speak - between the Physical World and the Astral World. (4) Steiner again - " wherever it enters into a definite connection with the astral (as happens in fruit production) something available as foodstuff is produced - that is to say, something which will support the astral in the animal and human body." (5) When this "astral touching" works too strongly into the fruiting process, into the seed formation, instead of supporting the human astral as a foodstuff, the fruit or seed now become poisonous. Steiner elaborates in other lectures on this working of the astral body surrounding the plants and how Earth, Plant and Sun work together, further study will clarify the picture according to Spiritual Science. (6) The question remains, why do plants require Nitrogen? and why does Steiner say " Strange as it may sound to the materialistic madcaps of today, nitrogen not only becomes alive but sensitive inside the earth; and this is of the greatest importance for agriculture" (7) >From previous postings - in particular L.2.2 Study Notes 20th November 1998 -We see that the Elemental Kingdoms of Nature( otherwise known as the Nature-Spirits) , i.e. the Salamanders, Sylphs, Undines and Gnomes have their consciousness in the Physical World, but their "body" in the Astral World.... " and what the natural scientist of today calls the laws of nature, are the thoughts of beings who think on the physical plane but have their bodies on the astral plane".... and... " the forces of Nature are creative beings, and Natural Laws are their thoughts" (8) and again from Steiner:- "The normal consciousness realises the sense-world by means of its perceptions, the world of the nature-spirits expresses itself from behind these perceptions as what we call the Forces of Nature... (9) The Elemental kingdoms use Nitrogen, as their bodily carrier, to express their creative activity in the plant kingdom via the four etheric forces, working through the warmth of the sun and the light of the Sun. They work collectively, they "strive for unity" via the preparations of Dandelion (salamanders), Oak Bark (Sylphs), Valerian (Undines) and Clay (Gnomes) Steiner calls these beings - "Higher". Lecture 4 and 5 can be read with the above thoughts in mind, particularly when Steiner emphasises the need for adding "living forces" to the soil via correct manuring, in particular a most important quotation from lecture 5.bears closer examination: ".......those who have studied academic agriculture from the modern point of view will say: 'you have still not told us how to improve the nitrogen-content of the manure.' .. On the contrary, I have been speaking of it all the time, namely in speaking of Yarrow, Chamomile and Stinging nettle" Why does he not mention the other preparations? quite simply because these three preparations are designed to work directly on the nitrogen, The Elementary (note: not elemental) Kingdoms of nature, working in the elements of Air, Water and Earth .Steiner calls these Elementary Beings - "Lower" - they are directly related to the First, Second and Third Elementary Kingdoms working, not as a unity, but in an "individual" way. He also goes on to talk about the "hidden alchemy" whereby these beings "transmute potash and calcium into nitrogen in the organic process." (10) So we have the Elemental (Higher) beings of nature and the Elementary (lower) beings of nature both working through nitrogen, but each in a different way. The Biodynamic Preparations are directly designed to enhance the working of these Beings. References: These are now available from the Rudolf Steiner Library, on line at rsteinerlibrary@taconic.net http://www3.c4systm.com/ASiA/anthrop.phtml#RSL 1. At the Gates of Spiritual Science - Rudolf Steiner - Notes from answers to questions - p. 143, 2nd Sept. 1906. - second edition 1986 - Rudolf Steiner Press. also lecture 2, p.20. 2. As above: Lecture 5. p. 46. 3. The Elementary World and its Beings - Rudolf Steiner. 28th May 1922. 4. Warmth Course - Rudolf Steiner - lecture XIV - 14th March 1920. Fourteen lectures, March 1-14 1920, 1988 Mercury press.New York. 5. Agriculture - 1974 edition. lecture 8, p. 137. 6. Universe, Earth and Man - Rudolf Steiner - lecture 3, p. 44. Rudolf Steiner Publishing Company, 1955. 7. Agriculture - Lecture 3, p. 48. 8. Foundations of Esotericism -Rudolf Steiner - lecture XXVII - p. 218 Rudolf Steiner Press 1983. 9. The Spiritual Beings in the Heavenly Bodies - Rudolf Steiner. Lecture 2, p. 36. Rudolf Steiner Publishing, 1951. 10. Agriculture - lecture 5, p. 98. James Thomson. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 14 18:20:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA05821 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 18:20:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16331; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 18:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13858 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:32:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.109]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990614213456.OWXL93999.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 09:34:56 +1200 Message-ID: <3765753D.1A14@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 09:33:49 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Astrality and Plants - the facts. References: <37648B29.57E358E9@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1115 JT wrote: > > Reading once again, one of the the main aims of this list:- > > "To facilitate intelligent and adult conversation about all topics > related to and inspired by Rudolf Steiner's course in agriculture" May I be the first to congratulate you James on finally appearing to achieve this aim. Long may it continue. Re Astral Body of plants and Astrality Yes I accept I have erred in this matter. I have been loose with my use of words and the images they convey. I have been somewhat myopic in not clarifying that the 'Astral body' of the plants is one in the same as what I call the World Astrality. Therefore please replace my use of the words 'Astral body' of plants with 'Astrality' While I appreciate the clarification your next paragraph re the spiritual bodies in the kingdoms of nature brings, your conclusion however. I continue to question. > For plants, they only have their Physical Body and their Etheric Body > in the Physical World. > Their Astral Body is in the Astral World which is Non-Spatial. Hence > any ideas about the working of the Astral Body of plants in the Physical > world have no basis in fact. The Astral body of Plants cannot "Surround > it" or interact in any way, to be a cause of either disease or insect > attack, quite simply because it is not in the Physical World. If we substitute the words Astrality for Astral body as mentioned above we are left with you saying "The Astrality cannot "Surround it" or interact in any way, to be a cause of either disease or insect attack, quite simply because it is not in the Physical World." IS this a fair interpretation of your point? If so are you then saying non spatial realities can not impact upon the physical world? If so please tell me your interpretation of how insect attack manifests due to the spiritual bodies activity.? > The Elemental kingdoms use Nitrogen, as their bodily carrier, to > express their creative activity in the plant kingdom via the four > etheric forces, working through the warmth of the sun and the light of > the Sun. They work collectively, they "strive for unity" via the > preparations of Dandelion (salamanders), Oak Bark (Sylphs), Valerian > (Undines) and Clay (Gnomes) Steiner calls these beings - "Higher". These are innovative statements. Could you provide some rationale for associating these elemental beings to these preparations? > > Lecture 4 and 5 can be read with the above thoughts in mind, > particularly when Steiner emphasises the need for adding "living forces" > to the soil via correct manuring, in particular a most important > quotation from lecture 5.bears closer examination: > ".......those who have studied academic agriculture from the modern > point of view will say: 'you have still not told us how to improve the > nitrogen-content of the manure.' .. On the contrary, I have been > speaking of it all the time, namely in speaking of Yarrow, Chamomile and > Stinging nettle" > > Why does he not mention the other preparations? quite simply because > these three preparations are designed to work directly on the nitrogen, Could you add more information as to how you see these three preparations working towards the 'anchoring' of nitrogen. I am particularly interested in how you see their spiritual activity in this process? cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 14 18:20:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA05830 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 18:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16417; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 18:05:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15570 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.112]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990614220059.MOXW2926.mta2-rme@garudix>; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:00:59 +1200 Message-ID: <37657B9B.38E9@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:00:59 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: agrisynergy@maelstrom.stjohns.edu, bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Job vac Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1116 Organic Job Vacancies in New Zealand Waikato Dry Stock Farm manager/leading hand This is a 700 acre sheep and beef property wanting to changeover to organic production. Someone with knowledge in animal manitenance and at least an interest in working organically is sought. Higher qualifications appreciated and rewarded. Organic herb grower - Rotorua A grower manager for a 2 ha herb project with plans for expansion is sought. House provided If you are interested or know someone who is please have them contact me by email or on NZ 0064 7 5332454. many thanks Glen Atkinson. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 14 18:48:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA06215 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 18:48:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA18999; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 18:34:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA18920 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 18:33:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp241.cy-net.net [208.21.195.50]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA09423 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:33:35 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEB68B.D1D291E0@FLYLO>; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:32:04 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEB68B.D1D291E0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Job vac Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:12:55 -0500 Encoding: 34 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1117 Too bad we can't do this via e-mail! I'd LOVE a vacation in NZ, even if it was a working one. I'd have to apply for the critter portion, about all I know anymore is critter lore these days. Toss in a few dairy goats, and I'd be really tempted! Good luck locating your apprentices martha -----Original Message----- From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage [SMTP:Garuda@xtra.co.nz] Sent: Monday, June 14, 1999 5:01 PM To: agrisynergy@maelstrom.stjohns.edu; bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Job vac Organic Job Vacancies in New Zealand Waikato Dry Stock Farm manager/leading hand This is a 700 acre sheep and beef property wanting to changeover to organic production. Someone with knowledge in animal manitenance and at least an interest in working organically is sought. Higher qualifications appreciated and rewarded. Organic herb grower - Rotorua A grower manager for a 2 ha herb project with plans for expansion is sought. House provided If you are interested or know someone who is please have them contact me by email or on NZ 0064 7 5332454. many thanks Glen Atkinson. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 14 22:26:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA09386 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 22:26:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03873; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 22:14:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03762 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 22:12:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.181.76] ("port 2048"@[148.233.181.76]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FDC006N6LEDSR@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:54:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:59:52 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Astrality and Plants - the facts. In-reply-to: <37648B29.57E358E9@xtra.co.nz> X-Sender: romerog@col1.telmex.net.mx (Unverified) To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id WAA03764 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1118 >I would like to offer some references related to Rudolf Steiner to help >towards an understanding of the Astral World and the Astrality of >Plants. >James Thomson. Dear James: Thank you so much for your clear and well structured posting. For me it was very helpful. I do not recall having seen many postings from you and obviously you have a good understanding of BD, so that, can you share with the list some of your personal background ?. IMO knowing a little about ourselves makes things a bit less impersonal, less mechanic and more human in this "electronic" community. >When this "astral touching" works too strongly into the fruiting >process, into the seed formation, >instead of supporting the human astral as a foodstuff, the fruit or seed >now become poisonous. I want to raise a question to you and Glen in reference to the above paragraph and related to the concept of a poison. According to E. Kolisko, every food item we consume is alien to the human body and has to undergo through out transformation in order to be of use. (which is not the case with animals) In a way the food we consume it is a poison until it is transformed. My question is: how do you draw the line between a poison and a food ? what is "too strongly" in the above paragraph? Warm greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 14 23:25:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA10333 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 23:25:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA06661; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 23:12:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA06618 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 23:11:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.110]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990615031315.SVIM93999.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 15:13:15 +1200 Message-ID: <3765C4B7.275C@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 15:12:55 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Astrality and Plants Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1119 > My question is: > how do you draw the line between a poison and a food ? what is "too strongly" in the > above paragraph? Can you digest it without any disruption. Physically through no flatulance >>diarohrea, cramps or excessive protein excretion, emotionally by no psychological or emotional explosions, no hallucinations or death. cheers Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 15 03:50:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA13701 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 03:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA15921; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 03:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA15786 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 03:32:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xtra.co.nz ([203.96.105.108]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with ESMTP id <19990615073503.VMSI93999.mta1-rme@xtra.co.nz> for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:35:03 +1200 Message-ID: <37660041.8387E84A@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:26:58 +1200 From: eaccess Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: eaccess X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNow Subject: Aims of the List. Facts and Visions. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1120 Since one of the main aims of this list is: " To facilitate intelligent and adult conversation about all topics related to and inspired by Rudolf Steiner's course in agriculture" We must therefore accept that inspired visionary contributions , in whatever form they make take, must be allowed for in a list of this nature, for these ' visions' and 'imaginings' not directly related to Steiners Work, will then at least provide a basis for a little light humour for those who take the time to read and understand what Steiner actually said on the subject. He at least, knew what he was talking about. Perhaps we may be allowed to quote Rudolf Steiner, on the subject of such 'visions' ...." Now let us suppose that a man were convinced that in the visionary world which appeared before him, he had something entirely real: such a man would be subject to a very grave mistake. And here we are at the point where danger begins, The realm of visionary life is immeasurable as long as we do not ascend from Imagination, which conjures up a visionary world, to Inspiration. It is the later which first tells us to direct our attention to one particular picture, to turn our spiritual gaze to it , and that then we shall experience truth; and the countless other pictures that surround this one must vanish into lifeless space. This one picture will arise from countless others and will prove itself to be an expression of truth. Thus, when we find ourselves on the spiritual path, we enter a realm where countless visions are possible and we must develop, so that we can select, as it were, out of this realm of infinite possibilities of vision, those which express a true spiritual reality. No other guarantee is possible than the one just mentioned, for if anyone were to come and say : "I enter a realm infinitely rich in visions, tell me which are true and which are false, can you not give a rule whereby I can distinguish the one from the other?" - no genuine occultist or spiritual investigator would answer these questions with a rule, but he would have to say : "If you wish to learn to discriminate, you must go on developing yourself. Then it will happen that it will be possible for you to direct your vision to that which remains. The visions which endure are those that have reached a certain level; but those which must be wiped out by you are images of mist." Now danger lies in the fact that many people feel themselves extremely pleased and comfortable in the realm of visions. When once surrounded by a visionary world they do not trouble to develop themselves further, or go on striving, because this visionary world pleases them extremely well. But it is impossible to attain reality in the spiritual life when we simply surrender ourselves to this feeling of bliss, to revelling, as it were, in the visionary world. We cannot then ascend to reality of truth. It is necessary to go on striving with all the means at our disposal' for only then does spiritual reality really emerge out of the limitless possibility of visions. " and later: ..".We find that such men who wish to remain at the mere visionary world even give different statements about one and the same matter ; that sometimes they tell us one thing and sometimes another. Only it is unfortunate that visionaries generally have bad memories and have forgotten what they related the first time. They are not themselves aware of what they have related. In short, we have to do with a numberless variety of phenomena....." ...."It must be taken as a principle that this visionary world is in the first place a manifestation of the spirit, but that it has not the slightest value as information. However many visions may come to us, they are manifestations of the spiritual world, but they are not realities. (1) and again from Steiner ......" the least suitable persons for the development of seership are those who from the outset are predisposed to be visionaries. Enthusiasts and intellectual idealists, those who already experience in the physical world that which has its justification in the spiritual world; people, indeed , who already in the physical world "hear the grass grow," who everywhere, as it were, already see the visions of the dreamer and not the realities perceived by a temperate disposition, people who indulge their imagination (there are more such than is generally supposed) - such people are of no use for training in seership. Persons who stand with both feet on reality, who also understand something of actuality and judge of things as they are, these offer the best material for the development of a seer. (2) References: 1. On the Meaning of Life- Rudolf Steiner - Two Lectures May 1912. Rudolf Steiner Publishing Company.(1946) L.2. p. 17, 19. 2. The Mysteries of the East and of Christianity - Rudolf Steiner - Four Lectures Feb.1913. Rudolf Steiner Publishing Company(1943) L.2. p. 35.. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 15 04:52:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA14038 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:52:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA17995; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:37:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA17954 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xtra.co.nz ([203.96.98.76]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with ESMTP id <19990615083921.THWE2926.mta2-rme@xtra.co.nz> for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 20:39:21 +1200 Message-ID: <37660F69.B11FC36F@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 20:31:38 +1200 From: eaccess Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: eaccess X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNow Subject: Poison or Food? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1121 To Guillermo and List. To Clarify the line between a poison and a food, the following passage from Steiner may be helpfull. "Let us focus our attention today on a particular subject; the plant kingdom in our environment.We know that many plants are consumed as foodstuffs by animals and human beings and are worked upon in the process of nourishment and digestion. In the way generally indicated they can be assimilated into the animal and human organisms. And now we suddenly come actoss a poisonous plant, let us say henbane or belladonna. What have we here? Suddenly, among the other vegetation, we find something that does not combine with the animal and human organisms as do other plants.Let us be clear in our minds about the basis of plant -life. I have often spoken about this. Let us picture the surface of the Earth and the plants growing out of it. We know that the physical organisation of the plant is permeated by its ether-body. But as I have often pointed out, the plant would not be able to unfold if the all-pervading astrality did not contact it from above by way of the blossom. The plant has no astral body within it but the astrality touches it from above. As a rule the plant does not absorb the astrality but only allows itself to be touched by it. The plant does not assimilate the astrality but towards the blossom and the fruit there is interplay with the astrality which does not, as a rule, combine with the ether - body or the physical body of the plant. In a poisonous plant, however, it is different. In a poisonous plant the astrality penetrates into the actual substance of the plant and combines with it. A plant such as belladonna or, let us say, henbane, hyoscyamus, sucks in the astrality either strongly or more moderately and so bears astrality within itself - in an uncoordinated state, of course, for if it were coordinated the plant would have to become an animal. It does not become an animal; the astrality within it is in a compressed state. As a result, interaction takes place between what is present in a plant saturated with astrality and the process of assimilation in the animal and human organisms. If we eat plants that are not poisonous, we absorb not only those constituents of the plant which the chemist works up in the laboratory, not only the actual substance of the plant but also the etheric life-forces; but we must, as I have said here before, destroy the substance completely during the process of nutrition. In feeding on what is living, man must kill it within himself. That is to say, within his own organism he must expell the etheric from the plant-substance." Steiner goes on to describe in detail, the consequences of taking in henbane or belladonna, from a medicinal point of view, and their effects on the body. Hope this clarifies things a bit. Ref: The driving force of Spiritual Powers in World History - Rudolf Steiner, 22nd March 1923 Bookprint International 1972, Lecture 6 . p. 71 - 78. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 15 07:53:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA15449 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 07:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA23562; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 07:41:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA23507 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 07:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.142] (pm3shep2-163-80.intrepid.net [209.190.163.80]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA04705 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 07:40:16 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 07:38:00 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD: biodynamics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1122 >From: RJKFARM@aol.com >Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 21:47:03 EDT >Subject: biodynamics >To: igg@igg.com >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Status: U > >Dear Sirs: > Your ad for information in Acres prompted my writing. I have been >following the biodynamic movement somewhat skeptically, but am interested to >learn more about it. You seem to offer information that might teach me more >about Steiner's ideas and methodology. We raise beef, hogs, the crops to >feed them, and some vegetables for direct sale. We utilize rotations, >intercropping, cover cropping, manure, and some fertilizers: gypsum, calphos, >fish & kelp to maintain and build fertility. We are always looking for ways >to make our soils and foods healthier and more productive. With all the work >we have now, making and utilizing the bd preps seems unmanageable. The wet >year we are having here in our area this spring has us behind in weed control >to where further changes in crop rotation seem necessary. > Any information you would have would be appreciated. Thanks..........Bob >Keune > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 15 13:28:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22227 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18101; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:16:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17891 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:13:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.134]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990615171614.YVVU93999.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 05:16:14 +1200 Message-ID: <37668A48.20F6@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 05:15:52 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Aims of the list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1123 I had the understanding that this list is a place of learning and sharing insights which arise from each individuals experience of working with Biodynamics. An atmosphere of open discussion would appear to be the culture many people on this list strive for. Each individual comes from their own place and as we have seen we have many different positions of understanding and experience here. I note though that when individual levels of understandiong are not taken into account and someone tries to stand in their Leonian pulpit as the holder of THE TRUTH and starts making other people wrong, that communciation on the list drops dramatically and people leave. I suggest this tendency as shown in many of JTs posts and again in his most recent one is killing this list fast. Jim, it is wonderful you are willing to contribute your knowledge to the list and I am more than willing to act as a stimulus for your enlightening me and other people understanding, but at some point you need to grow up and realise everyone including myself are making honest contributions and do not deserve to be made sarcastically wrong. Your contributions would be more valuable if you try and answer the questions that arise from your posts, rather than attacking the asker. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 15 13:44:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22675 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:44:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19550; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19297 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:30:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.134]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990615173259.YXYK93999.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 05:32:59 +1200 Message-ID: <37668E35.7E70@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 05:32:38 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Fact or visionary fantasy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1124 > The Elemental kingdoms use Nitrogen, as their bodily carrier, to > express their creative activity in the plant kingdom via the four > etheric forces, working through the warmth of the sun and the light of > the Sun. They work collectively, they "strive for unity" via the > preparations of Dandelion (salamanders), Oak Bark (Sylphs), Valerian > (Undines) and Clay (Gnomes) Steiner calls these beings - "Higher". > Did RS say this association of the preparations and elemental beings? or or is it just the imaginations of the deluded. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 16 00:40:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA04329 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 00:40:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA05336; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 00:26:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA05278 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 00:25:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz ([202.50.81.131]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with ESMTP id <19990616042821.EFEI311284.mta2-rme@nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz> for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:28:21 +1200 Received: by NT_SVR1 with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:17:33 +1200 Message-ID: <6120A29E7C51D0119E9700805F4C5E8D1251FC@NT_SVR1> From: Lynne Sheridan To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: Its all new to me too!!!! Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:17:31 +1200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1125 Yes I too am a new comer to the list and to the ' entire ' concept of BIODYNAMICS. From the info I have read on the list I am completely lost in most of the lingo. I am about to start a cut flower and lavender operation. Since I presently have a new paddock to plant up from scratch I am keen to learn from others mistakes and knowledge on what I should be focusing on at this time. Regards Lynne From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 16 01:51:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA05353 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 01:51:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA07928; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 01:37:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA07759 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 01:34:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([210.55.145.31]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990616053705.EYWH311284.mta2-rme@default> for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:37:05 +1200 Message-ID: <37673859.546D@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:38:33 +1200 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Its all new to me too!!!! References: <6120A29E7C51D0119E9700805F4C5E8D1251FC@NT_SVR1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1126 Lynne Sheridan wrote: > > Yes I too am a new comer to the list and to the ' entire ' concept of > BIODYNAMICS. From the info I have read on the list I am completely lost > in most of the lingo. > I am about to start a cut flower and lavender operation. Since I > presently have a new paddock to plant up from scratch I am keen to learn > from others mistakes and knowledge on what I should be focusing on at > this time. > > Regards Lynne Hi Lynne. Where abouts are you in NZ. Send me your address and I will send you some information on Biodynamics from The Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association of NZ, and some information about biodynamic flower growing in NZ. I put some informatin together for a Flower Growers meeting held in New Plymouth in May and could send it to you to help you get started. It is not a complicated system of growing if you follow the basic rules. Do you have any growing experience? Kindest Regards Tony Robinson Levin From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 16 08:27:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08827 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21191; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21058 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:09:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.79] (max19-17.stc.net [208.210.143.16]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA02909 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:10:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37660F69.B11FC36F@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 07:18:05 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Poison or Food? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1127 James Thompson writes: >To Guillermo and List. > >To Clarify the line between a poison and a food, the following passage >from Steiner may be helpfull. > >"Let us focus our attention today on a particular subject; the plant >kingdom in our environment.We know that many plants are consumed as >foodstuffs by animals and human beings and are worked upon in the >process of nourishment and digestion. In the way generally indicated >they can be assimilated into the animal and human organisms. And now >we suddenly come actoss a poisonous plant, let us say henbane or >belladonna. What have we here? Suddenly, among the other vegetation, we >find something that does not combine with the animal and human organisms >as do other plants.Let us be clear in our minds about the basis of plant >-life. I have often spoken about this. Let us picture the surface of >the Earth and the plants growing out of it. We know that the physical >organisation of the plant is permeated by its ether-body. But as I have >often pointed out, the plant would not be able to unfold if the >all-pervading astrality did not contact it from above by way of the >blossom. > The plant has no astral body within it but the astrality touches it >from above. As a rule the plant does not absorb the astrality but only >allows itself to be touched by it. The plant does not assimilate the >astrality but towards the blossom and the fruit there is interplay with >the astrality which does not, as a rule, combine with the ether - body >or the physical body of the plant. > In a poisonous plant, however, it is different. In a poisonous >plant the astrality penetrates into the actual substance of the plant >and combines with it. A plant such as belladonna or, let us say, >henbane, hyoscyamus, sucks in the astrality either strongly or more >moderately and so bears astrality within itself - in an uncoordinated >state, of course, for if it were coordinated the plant would have to >become an animal. It does not become an animal; the astrality within >it is in a compressed state. >As a result, interaction takes place between what is present in a plant >saturated with astrality and the process of assimilation in the animal >and human organisms. If we eat plants that are not poisonous, we absorb >not only those constituents of the plant which the chemist works up in >the laboratory, not only the actual substance of the plant but also the >etheric life-forces; but we must, as I have said here before, destroy >the substance completely during the process of nutrition. In feeding on >what is living, man must kill it within himself. That is to say, >within his own organism he must expell the etheric from the >plant-substance." > >Steiner goes on to describe in detail, the consequences of taking in >henbane or belladonna, from a medicinal point of view, and their >effects on the body. > >Hope this clarifies things a bit. > >Ref: > >The driving force of Spiritual Powers in World History - Rudolf >Steiner, 22nd March 1923 >Bookprint International 1972, Lecture 6 . p. 71 - 78. Dear Guilliarmo, James and List, I don't know how clear the above is, but I do know I would have expressed it somewhat differently. Most plant "poisons" are categorized as alkaloids. While I'm fairly sure there must be exceptions, I can't think of any at present. My Webster's defines an alkaloid as follows: "Any of numerous, ususally colorless, complex and bitter organic bases (as morphine or codeine) containing NITROGEN [my emphasis] and usually oxygen that occur especially in seed plants." As Steiner goes to great lengths in Lecture Three to explain, nitrogen is the carrier of the astrality--not in its pure molecular (diatomic) form in the atmosphere, but in its combinations with other substances. It is also noteworthy that when we obtain our nitrogen from eating plant proteins, we must first break these proteins down into their amino acids. Alkaloids are difficult in this regard. Because of their nature as bases they do not break down so easily into (amino) acids. (In looking at the alkalyzing substances such as calcium, magnesium, etc. these are dense, while the acidifying substances such as the halogens, oxygen, sulfur, these are light and usually gaseous.) We might say that the nitrogen in such compounds has become too dense, concentrated, fixed or too resistant to the process of digestion that is required for a human or animal to absorb and stamp the nitrogen compounds with its own signature, its unique identity, its own consciousness. Thus it acts as a poison, anywhere from a slight to a very considerable degree. Many of these poisons alter consciousness as well as disturbing various other functions of the body. So it is literally quite correct to say the astrality has penetrated too strongly into the plant in the case of a poisonous plant. Our digestion is unable to work strongly enough on the complex nitrogen compounds in the plant to break them down (kill them) and thus liberate their etheric forces, thus they poison us instead of providing nourishment. Hope this helps to better understand astrality. Best, Hugh Lovel Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 16 08:28:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08842 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:28:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21227; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21067 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:10:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.79] (max19-17.stc.net [208.210.143.16]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA02923 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:12:08 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: FWD: biodynamics Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id IAA21068 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1128 >>From: RJKFARM@aol.com >>Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 21:47:03 EDT >>Subject: biodynamics >>To: igg@igg.com >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Status: U >> >>Dear Sirs: >> Your ad for information in Acres prompted my writing. I have been >>following the biodynamic movement somewhat skeptically, but am interested to >>learn more about it. You seem to offer information that might teach me more >>about Steiner's ideas and methodology. We raise beef, hogs, the crops to >>feed them, and some vegetables for direct sale. We utilize rotations, >>intercropping, cover cropping, manure, and some fertilizers: gypsum, calphos, >>fish & kelp to maintain and build fertility. We are always looking for ways >>to make our soils and foods healthier and more productive. With all the work >>we have now, making and utilizing the bd preps seems unmanageable. The wet >>year we are having here in our area this spring has us behind in weed control >>to where further changes in crop rotation seem necessary. >> Any information you would have would be appreciated. Thanks..........Bob >>Keune >> Dear Bob, Thanks for your inquiry. I'm afraid that you have been justified in following biodynamics skeptically because unless the BD preps are used effectively (which can be difficult, time consuming and even expensive) and consistantly they tend to do very little good. Many new adherents try it for a while and go away disappointed. I've always found this a great tragedy, expecially since in my own case I lucked out and got very amazing results upon my first exposure to BD. However, I should hasten to add that thereafter I found my efforts to apply the BD preps often enough did NOT achieve the desired results and it took me many years of working with BD to find out why. At this point, especially since we have picked up on Greg Willis' work introducing biodynamic horn clay, which is used to join together the BD horn manure (500) and horn silica (501), and especially since we have gone to broadcasting the preps with a double action (soil/atmosphere) cosmic pipe as potencies tuned specifically for each location, I can confidently say that biodynamics is far more certain to achieve its potential for most farms. Actually we have been working closely with one orange grower in Florida who does NOT see much improvement so far in order to discover why. His associate less than a mile away is happily enjoying very beneficial effects. But it is the tougher cases that teach us the most, and quite frankly I expect to be learning my entire life. I've never been comfortable thinking I knew it all. One caution in particular. It is not like waving a magic wand and all your weeds or other problems vanish overnight. The effects are subtle but cumulative, and gradually things improve. Immediate effects may be noticed, but they tend to be slight and to slowly build and build. One of the problems the orange grower above has had is that his grove was so lifeless that it has been a slow process getting any noticeable build-up since the growth curve was so near to dipping instead of climbing. Where life is already well-established results are much faster in showing up. A few of the good things I can say about broadcasting the preps with a cosmic pipe rather than spraying them include: You broadcast them all as an organic whole and you broadcast them every day, 365/year. In the pipe the reagents are not used up, although as things change it is best to get a new set as the potencies needed will change. There's no need for costly equipment or spending a lot of time stirring and spraying, or for that matter making whacking big quantities of the various preparations. One pipe covers up to 500 acres so that it is very economical for large farms. It broadcasts regardless of weather (it also ameliorates the weather) so there are no problems if it is too wet or too dry. I'm sending some information. It is a little out of date as we have made several additional discoveries since this was written. Also, we have had to raise prices since we are providing more services than we did initially, have an on-going committment to research which translates into greater expertise, and thus we are able to better guarantee favorable results. Best, Hugh Lovel **************************************************************** Starting out with a Cosmic Pipe **************************************************************** A Cosmic Pipe is a self-driven etheric broadcaster used directly in the field to balance and enhance the energies of both soil and atmosphere. No power is required as it simply connects the energy fields that are already there. Nor does it use up the reagents in its wells, as it simply broadcasts their characteristics. Because the BD preps are of unusually potent living character, and because the life forces move from low concentration to high concentration, having BD preps in the cosmic pipe as reagents turns the pipe into a very strong channel of etheric energies. And it sure beats mucking around with heavy spray equipment trying to spray biodynamic preparations, especially when conditions are inconvenient for this. Since etheric energies are attracted to and build up wherever there is an etheric accumulator, and since the biodynamic preparations are amongst the most intense etheric accumulators, the biodynamic preparations are some of the most effective reagents. Experience has shown, however, that each preparation is part of a whole picture, and no one part of this picture can safely be stimulated to any great extent without attending to all the other parts. So all the preparations should be used in concert in the pipe. Of course every field and its environment is a little one way or another. By using homeopathic potencies the relationship between the various preparations may be fine-tuned for each location to achieve some approximation of optimum balance for the farm organism. Cosmic Pipes come in two sizes: Garden Pipes cover 10 acres or more and include a reagent package of 4 BD prep reagents plus homeopathic milk and honey. Potencies must be determined for each location. ($695) Field Pipes cover 100 acres or more and also include a full package of six reagents whose potencies are determined for each location. ($995) Pipe orders should be accompanied by a copy of an aerial photo with boundaries marked or a land platt similarly marked. Suggested sites for pipe placement can be determined for each pipe. **************************************************************** The Cosmic Pipe Part III: "The men who are now practical technicians will soon discover they are standing before a complete change as to what one calls practical, when man will be involved with his will in the objective feeling of the world." --Rudolf Steiner Starting Out With a Cosmic Pipe By Hugh Lovel The author and researcher indicates he can't say for sure he's gotten all the bugs out of the Cosmic Pipe, but over the course of 12 years he's developed it into the best method he's seen for applying the BD preps. It beats the environmental impact of electricity, petroleum and bulky equipment, and it gets the preps out VERY well. "Which," he says, "In no way means it can't be improved. Rather, I'd be inclined to say it is still relatively crude and primative even though a big step forward. It's much cheaper than most other methods in both money and time spent. So far I don't know near enough yet to offer guarantees. Just about every really new development takes a decade or two of practical application to reach that level. Look how long it took steamboats to catch on. Yet, the lucky ones were those who got in on the ground floor of the industry." ****** What Is the Limit? How much farther can farming go down the road of massive truck bills, expensive fertilizers washing downstream, toxic rescue chemistry, bank forclosures and nutritionally worthless production? How much longer can the farming community turn blind eyes, deaf ears and stone hearts on the need for self-sufficiency? When, finally, will the need for holism become so great the survivors can no longer resist it? For so long now it's been customary to view farms as parts collections. Only a rare individual senses how farms might function as healthy living organisms. And by that I mean intelligent, sensitive, self-regulating farms that actively purify, nourish and circulate, with well-formed structures and healthy metabolisms within their borders. Anything less than this fails to support the spirit and is not truly sustainable. Why BD? Biodynamic farming is spiritual farming. Its purpose is to nourish the human spirit, not to invent a liver machine to put farms on along with the kidney, heart, lung and intravenous feeding devices already in use. How would Stradivarius build a violin or Heifitz learn to play it in shock on life support machinery? Only by attending to all the needs of a healthy organism can we have farms that nourish the human spirit. Most of all this requires intelligence and sensitivity. By treating a farm as a living organism biodynamics acknowledges, not only that a balance of organic activities must take place, but that the farm must be able to absorb energy from its cosmic surroundings and build it up, imparting this energy to the food it grows. After all, we eat food for the energy it gives us, not for its substance. The farm organism's health and vitality depends on striking a balance between the plant's upward formative photosynthetic dynamics that leads to ripe fruits and grains and the animal's downward transformative digestive dynamics that leads to humus and soil fertility. Within this self-sufficient balance of plant and animal activities what we secure for human nourishment is the tastiest and most vital food available in the world today. Creating Farm Organisms No doubt one of the greatest difficulties biodynamic agriculture faced in its first 75 years was creating new farm organisms. The tools for this, the biodynamic preparations, existed since biodynamics was born. But getting people to use these tools effectively to create biodynamic farms has been agonizing. It was not enough to explain that the preps were catalysts-- seeds--which gave rise to complete and balanced life functions so that a hospitalized agriculture might become a potpourri of healthy farm organisms. Only rare, occasional farmers saw the sense of what seemed like extra trouble and expense to stir and spray 500 and 501 and make compost with the other preps. It looked like one more thing to do. It didn't fit the mindset of fighting with a post Pandora environment while inputing costly fertilizers and extracting perishible crops. When all are wage slaves in a world of wage slavery, who notices the depravity of this servitude or seeks the philosopher's insight, the nobleman's leisure rather than the treadmill? If the path to freedom is too baffling and too challenging few venture on it. Yet there comes a time when those who climbed over the walls report back, bringing tales of verdant realities beyond former hope. Yes! The biodynamic preparations really work and they really get farms off the life-support machinery, out of the doctor's office and functioning on their own. Here and there maybe there's still some emphysema, heart disease, blindness, dull thinking, infirmity, sclerosis and the rest. But even so, isn't it great to ride the river, write a song, work with a fine telescope or prospect for gold? Isn't it hopeful to find that after 75 years the biodynamic preparations are not nearly so confusing or hard to apply as previously thought? The Importance of Boundaries Over the past dozen years of using the Cosmic Pipe to apply BD preps any number of realizations occurred. Probably none were more important than grasping the importance of boundaries. All living organisms have boundaries. Call it skin or cell membranes or whatever. If an organism dies its boundaries break down and it goes into dissolution. Thus having weak or indistinct boundaries is not a characteristic of healthy organisms. One can see this with cloud formation. When the atmosphere is sparkling and alive cloud formation is very distinct. When the atmosphere is polluted and dead, cloud formation is hazy, weak and obscure. One can also see this with hens' eggs. The healthiest eggs with the most vitality will have tight membranes and yolks that really stand up in the frying pan. But if you break open an egg where the yolk membrane has broken down and the yolk has mingled with the white, throw it out. It's not fit to eat. What this means is that a biodynamic farm or garden needs to make its boundaries clear and operate as an integrated unit within those parameters. Otherwise it cannot contain and build up its vital forces. And the first rule of these etheric (vital) forces is that, unlike substance which tends to go from high concentration to low concentration, ether goes from low concentration to high concentration. This means the most ether-charged farms and gardens get the strongest flows of life forces. Thought Forms The question that immediately arises in regard to applying BD preps with a Cosmic Pipe is how to set the farm or garden boundaries so the pipe broadcast goes all the way to the farm or garden's edge but no farther. It would seem there is no hardware in the pipe to do that. Nevertheless this is much easier than might be imagined. All that is really needed is thought forms in the wells. There may be several ways of accomplishing this, but for the sake of simplicity one need know only a couple. One of the ways boundaries are established in the world is by cultural agreement. Using a copy of the deed with its boundaries outlined one need only write the intent to "Keep the broacast within the boundaries as marked." This creates a thought form. With a copy in each well the pipe's broadcast will conform. Besides it is a questionable practice to treat your neighbors' property without their fully informed consent. (Because the pipe is made with things like PVC glue, silicone caulk, etc. it is a good idea to also write the intent to "Keep the construction materials from contaminating the broadcast.") Incidentally, as a research tool for understanding the effects of each prep the Cosmic Pipe is quite revealing. In my first use of a Cosmic Pipe I piped biodynamic preparation number 507 all by itself into the soil's etheric field. In two months I had carrots blooming in their first year and corn (maize) tasseling with no ears. Radishes bloomed and died--no roots, no seed--in just four weeks. Doubtless I wouldn't want to produce crops this way, nor live or even hang out for too long in such an experiment zone. This is another reason for keeping the pipe broadcast within bounds. It might be a good way to grow specific medicinal herbs with strongly enhanced curative characteristics, and come the day when we have funds, can design experiments and hire technicians this should be looked into. Balance As the above experiment with BD 507 illustrates, the Cosmic Pipe is a powerful broadcaster that can seriously affect the balance of energies unless a finely tuned concert of reagents is used. In the early days of Cosmic Pipe research unbalanced reagents were one of the most revealing indications of how these instruments worked with the ethers. Although there are farms and occasions when one or another prep deserves emphasis, Hugh Courtney's assertion that BD farms should use all the preps, including the oft-omitted 508, proved true time and again in Cosmic Pipe experiments. Each preparation embodies a different function of the complete farm or garden organism. 500 provides intelligence, 501 sensation, 502 excretion/purification, 503 digestion/assimilation, 504 circulation, 505 structure, 506 regulation, 507 metabolism and 508 boundedness. This is the minimum combination of reagents for producing an integrated farm organism. Other reagents may be added, such as homeopathic milk (for nourishment) and honey (for ripeness, maturation) or even homeopathic rock powders. But the basic preps are the basic group of reagents necessary to achieve an integrated, balanced start. Tuning Reagents By itself without reagents the pipe is nothing special. It is like a radio station that is off the air. But with a balanced program made up of homeopathic potencies of the preps the pipe works very well. I've found it to be the best method of applying the preps bar none. Nevertheless if I need some spot application, such as soaking my potato seed in 500 before planting, I still stir preps by hand. I also still insert preps in all compost piles. There are several reasons I greatly prefer to sell complete Cosmic Pipe kits. I want to ensure reliable construction that allows for periodic testing and repair, and I hope to keep sufficient track of people using pipes that a clearinghouse for information develops. But the biggest reason is I'd like to assure that people get pipes that work effectively and beneficially. For this reason it is very important to have a well-tuned, balanced reagent package. If you buy a kit, send us either an aerial photo with your boundaries marked or a land platt or deed, again with boundaries marked. We can then make a xerox copy for each well for use as a wittness to establish the farm or garden boundaries. This also allows us to map dowse for suggested locations for the pipe and for the exact potencies of the BD preps most appropriate for your location. This helps ensure optimum function for your pipe. We keep these photos on file should you need any additional reagents or consulting. Installation For economy in shipping and because PVC pipe is available almost everywhere, Cosmic Pipe kits ordinarily come without the central five foot piece of PVC pipe. All that is necessary is to assemble the kit is to purchase a five foot length of schedule 40 PVC pipe, hook up the wires with wire nuts (included in the kit) and glue the sections together. The pipe should be glued together so that the wells are in line with eath other, as when the pipe is installed these should point east. If possible you should check for an optimum location to put the pipe. You may use your intuition or perhaps dowse for it yourself or find a dowser that you can explain how the Cosmic Pipe works to and have him dowse for the location. It should not be under power lines, especially high voltage ones. It should not be under thick trees or up against houses, walls or steep banks. It should not be planted in locations where water stands, and, of course, it cannot be placed in roads or other places where it is an obstruction. If placed in a location where cattle or other large livestock can rub against it there should be a fence put around it to keep them from breaking it. Once a suitable location is found, dig a two foot deep hole with post hole diggers and place the pipe in the hole with the wells pointing east. In ordinary clay loam soil it should be buried up to about the middle of the collar on the bottom end of the pipe. Perhaps in very heavy clay it might be buried about an inch higher, while in very sandy soil it should go 2 or 3 inches below the collar. It is possible to fine tune the depth by (with the wells empty) getting back 35 feet or so and walking forward dowsing for the range of effectiveness of the pipe. Then with a little deeper or shallower hole the range can be marked off until the optimum depth is found. The soil should be packed firmly around the pipe and the reagent packages (which are labeled for each well) should be placed in their respective wells. Then dowsing should reveal the range of effectiveness to be far, far wider--in most cases covering the entire area within the boundaries of the photos in the wells. At this point the pipe is installed. Periodically one may check the wells with the ohm meter. With red (positive) lead on the red test terminal and black (negative) on the black terminal the read across the diode should show little if any resistance. Switching leads so the black lead is on the red test terminal and vice versa makes the current go through the 100k resistor, so the ohm reading should be 100k or close to that. If the ohm meter does not give these readings something is amiss, and the well or wells should be removed and repaired. This should be relatively easy since the well jars are glued in with silicone caulk which can be peeled away from the top of the jars and the jars loosened and pulled out. The circuit ordinarily is glued to the bottom of the well jar and can be removed from the circuit with a soldering iron and a new board soldered in. Barring that it may be cut out and a new circuit attached with wire nuts. Observation It would be naive to suppose the Cosmic Pipe is the absolute solution for all a farm's problems. It will get the BD preps out within the farm's borders and the farm will start functioning as an integrated organism. But there is a lot of fine tuning that one does by the way one farms. This requires keen observation. Observation is the basis of intelligence. The computer adage, garbage in garbage out (GIGO), applies as much as anywhere else to human intelligence. If we don't gather good information we have little hope of knowing what is, let alone what to do, if anything. There are all kinds of exercises for improving observational powers. Something I started doing at age twelve was looking for four-leaf clovers. Nowadays I see them at a glance. In fact, everybody sees four-leaf clovers, but only a few observe them. And there is this joker in the deck. Really it's not a joker, it is the deck. Christ taught, "What you seek you will find." And that's true, whether you seek it out of desire or aversion, you find what you seek. This principle is a little general, and not quite like seeking a BB gun for your birthday at age 8, but it is true. Another way of looking at it is the Heisenberg Indeterminancy Principle. Without going through the mathematics, it can be paraphrased as, "The very presence of the observer and his measuring instruments is a determining factor in the field of investigation." So even physicists are aware on one level or another (since the 30's) that we create our own realities on the basis of what we look for. Look for the unexpected without bias and you will find that. And in that direction one stands to discover inconceivable things. Really knowing what the Cosmic Pipe is doing requires open-minded observation. Who knows what will be discovered? Service and Consultations One of the things to watch out for is whether the pipe is still functional. The chances appear great that once it is installed it will work smoothly. But what if lightning strikes the pipe? That would fry its circuits. So keep the ohm meter (multi-range testor) handy and go out and check the pipe once in a while. It is possible that new well circuits will be needed. For sure you want to reasure yourself every now and then that the pipe is functional. Another thing. After treating an area, whether farm or garden, for a year or so, conditions will change. Using the pipe with the BD preps in it ensures change. An annual evaluation is a good idea. The fine-tuned balance of homeopathic potencies in the wells is likely to change. A new prep package likely is needed. Other concerns, which observations may bring to light, may require even more frequent inquiries of what to do. A serious failings of the Hieronymus era was no on-going consultation was available. Sorry. One pipe owner can't possibly know it all. Acting as a central clearinghouse of information we will discover much more that all can use. Anything can be used as a reagent in a Cosmic Pipe. Salt fertilizers can be used (I regret to say and advise against). In growing food we must think about the life therein. Some reagents, like the BD preps, are much more intensely inbued with living characteristics than others. This is true even of BD insect and weed peppers. So consulting about problems is advisable. Some Cautions Please keep in mind that (1) Some people have reported uncomfortable effects if their living quarters are too close to their Cosmic Pipes, as the Cosmic Pipe's etheric energy can be rather intense close to the pipe. (So intense that livestock often notice it right away and come rub against the pipe, which means erecting a fence around the pipe upon installation in pastures). (2) Your reagent package is a finely tuned set. Adding or subtracting reagents should be done with care. For example, if soil tests indicate lime should be added, don't just get a vial of lime and put it in the well. Tests have shown that one or another homeopathic dilution will be harmonious, certain others antipathetic. Usually raw reagents are too coarse and overwhelming and will upset the balance of the reagent package. Without care and understanding one can easily have unusual and undesirable experiences. If we made your Cosmic Pipe, your farm photo or land platt is on file here and we can make reagents tuned to your needs for a mere $10 apiece. So should you need mineral reagents, or a weed or insect pepper, send us a sample of whatever it is. This helps ensure your Cosmic Pipe does this job while continuing to work with all its reagents in balance as designed and intended. §§§§§§§§ Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 16 08:28:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08851 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21144; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21052 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.79] (max19-17.stc.net [208.210.143.16]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA02887 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:09:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3762B77D.3759@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 07:34:11 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Astrality and plants - part 3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1129 Dear Glen and List Folks, This was such a masterful compilation of material on nitrogen and astrality that I am reposting it for all serious students. I'll try to deal with its strengths and shortcomings in this post and then you all can review Glen's post. Steiner let's us know in Lecture Two how much we must depend on our sense of smell to determine what is happening in astral realms. Dead nitrogen (in the air) has no smell to our senses, but in every combination with hydrogen, oxygen, carbon and so on be prepared! These are the most intense smells! Feature rotting shrimp, or the ammonia smell in forking out a barn, or the wonderful, ethereal aromas of our seasoning herbs here at UAI. These smells run the gamut from the crude and simplest to the most refined and ethereal--tasty--proteins. Glen notes how all plants except legumes seem to exhaust nitrogen from the soil. Well, you'll find that all expansive, upward growth (which takes place when nitrogen is active, neucleic acids replicate, etc.) take place at night. You can sit in a cornfield at sundown and listen to it grow. It's a definite evening and nighttime phenomenon. Look for it. Steiner also mentions how plants are mostly absorbing smells. They do this, he says, particularly in the meadow with it's mixed vegetation (including legumes). Plants do absorb smells, though the mechanism for this absorbtion may not be readily apparant. Mostly plants do not give off smells, but when they do this is an expression of astrality. Well you must admit that the stench of rendering plants and animl confinement operations (to say nothing of many other malodorous things) would have long poisoned the Earth unless there was a means for its removal. Sorry I haven't time to write more on this subject. Best, Hugh Lovel >Astrality and Plants - Part 3 > >The next part of looking into the role of the Astrality in plants has >proven the most difficult. It is relatively straightforward to >understand the Astrality working from the outside of the plant inwards >or onto and that its activity is encouraged by the presence of nitrogen. >However we are presented with the situation that nitrogen is present in >most plants and in many cases is vital for the healthy growth of most >plants, however these plants are understood not to incarnate the astral >body. The exception is the legume family, where nitrogen is directly >drawn from the atmosphere and drawn downwards into the soil. In most >other plants we must look for the paths of nitrogen as coming from the >soil moving upwards into the sites and activities it inhabits. > >The first picture this provides is that nitrogen and Astrality, while >related, can exist independently of each other. Or do they? Or is it >that where nitrogen does exist in plant growth its activity appears as a >surrogate astrality process working through the light ether of the >etheric body? > >We find nitrogen is several places. All plants which photosynthesis >make use of nitrogen in the formation of chlorophyll, IU (I understand) >small deposits of protein appear in many plant leaves, while nearly all >seeds contain protein as well. Protein formation is the hallmark of >nitrogen, while poison formation is the other. So the question arises >for me as to what are the paths of the spiritual activity standing >behind nitrogen in its journey through plant growth. > >It is relatively easy to appreciate the Astrality as an external auric >phenomena surrounding plants from above and as such a inhabitant of the >'belly of the Agricultural individual' we are presented with in lecture >2. In lecture 3 and 4 we are also told the Astrality works into the >soil as well, with the fixation of nitrogen from plant residue and >microorganism activity we can see how it can be carried into the Earth >to surround the whole plant from outside. Soil insect attack is but >another manifestation of an unbalanced Astral activity in the soil. > >Lecture 3 tells us of the importance of nitrogen in plant growth and >outlines how the oxygen necessary for growth is 'pulled' to the carbon >by the nitrogen, however in such a manner that neither proteins or >poisons are formed. On the periodic table nitrogen stands inbetween >oxygen and carbon. on the same ring. This nitrogen we assume comes into >the plant from the soil as part of a anion cation complex and in doing >so attracts oxygen, which in turn can then become part of the most >common CHO complexes of carbohydrate and sugars. Interestingly in these >most common of plant substances nitrogen does not feature. Where it does >feature significantly in plant growth is part of the chlorophyll >molecule. This relatively large molecule is produced as a result of >several processes all meeting together. First there are salts coming >from the earth most notably magnesium and nitrogen which is then joined >with carbon dioxide from the atmosphere , in the presence of light. >With light, chlorophyll develops, This sees a magnesium atom ringed by >four atoms of nitrogen followed by a complex of CH&O atoms making a >total of no less than 137 atoms. Without light the Mg combines with the >carbon dioxide and some oxygen from water to produce MgCO3 + H2 ( Living >Energies, C Coates - Pg 220). Here the carbonated Mg is far less >available than the nitrated form present in Chlorophyll. In the >lightless grass IU this leaves quantities of loose nitrogen ( and >hydrogen) in the plant which then causes grass staggers in sheep and >cattle. It is commonly understood that grass staggers occurs from young >lush immature spring growth, especially on artificially fertilised >pasture. Part of the reasoning here is that the grass has grown quickly >in an insufficient light environment, so the grass has not 'matured'. In >short the nitrogen has not been taken up by the Mg and is present in the >plant in a volatile state and is available to create a poisoning effect >evident in the disturbed Astral reaction of convulsive shaking of the >afflicted animal. The reduced magnesium suggesting the nervous system is >the site of this 'astral invasion'. We should also note there is a >greater percentage of Hydrogen being released into the system as opposed >to oxygen given off from photosynthesis. This in turn influences the >Ego, Etheric ratio of any given food which if taken to an extreme will >encourage death. > >Other nitrogen activities in plants show in amino acid formation and the >seeding both processes which need a significant degree of light and >warmth to reach their fulfilment. > >In lecture 3, we are told how when the nitrogen enters the plant it >changes from dead nitrogen to an alive nitrogen. Similarly when the >light ether enters the Earth it becomes a bound form, which IU then >works on the plant from below. This process as indicated by Malcolm G. >earlier, suggests the nitrogen and light is taken up by the etheric body >processes within the plant. Given the need for (Free) light if nitrogen >is to function adequately, we can imagine it is the bound light ether >which has a special affinity for nitrogen inside the plant. We can see >though that this bound light still needs external free light for the >nitrogen to reach its optimum goal in photosynthesis. > >In earlier parts of this essay I attempted to outline how we can see the >workings of light and Astrality on plant form. Leaf indentation, >flowering and the nutritive quality of protein formation in seeds are >manifestations of and influenced by the strength of Astrality working >onto the plant from outside. If we alter the balance of the etheric >forces moving upwards and the Astrality moving downwards - eg. simply by >adding or subtracting water or light - we alter the manifestation of >all these things. Interestingly this picture is very similar to that >presented to us about Calcium and Silica in lecture 1 and 6 and in the >working of 500 and 501 at the end of lecture 4. This strongly suggests >the relationship of the etheric body to calcium and the astrality to >Silica. The question is though which Calcium and which Silica process. >As we have suggested earlier the Ca & Si processes are actually a >fourfold activity. > > The etheric forces which originate from Brahma beyond the Cosmic egg >(Lovel) are concentrated in the Earth atmosphere before being drawn and >held close to and into the Earth. We are told in Lec. 2 how this is >achieved through the incorporation of humus into the soil. From here it >combines with the Earthly calcium processes held in lime and the Cosmic >silica processes held in the mineral silica to begin moving upwards, >with the aid of clay. This etheric / calcium activity brings bulk and >size to the plant. We have identified the calcium process involved in >this as the Cosmic Calcium as it is drawn from the atmospheric >homeopathic calcium and incorporated into the humus from both old plants >and directly into the soil from this source. > >As this upward thrust moves away from the Earth it is met by the >Astrality. Leaf forms change and indent, flowering is ignited, sugars >and essential oils begin to be produced and fruit gain food value. All >of these activities are increased through the spraying of 501. Light is >increased around the plant and the Astrality can work more strongly. As >RS tells us at the very end of lecture 4, 501 increases the downward >movement of force while 500 increases those forces coming upward from >the earth. From this, and the lec. 2 statements about how silica sand >facilitates the terrestrial silica processes we can determine that 501 >works strongly with the empowerment of the Astrality. On many occasions >I have noted an increase in pest attack after spraying 501. This has >become one of the signs of wether I have overstepped the balance point. >All this can be altered by strengthening the upthrusting etheric forces. >Leaf metamorphsis can be reversed, fruit stop ripening, alkaloid levels >decrease and flowering stops. Plant form then is an interplay between >the up moving etheric/physical/ego complex bounded, contained and >sometimes constricted by the astrality. > >AIUI, With poisonous plants we have a slight variation on the above >theme. We have the interesting picture of the astral body incarnating >more deeply into the plant, from the outside inwards. These plants >though do not apparently take nitrogen in from the atmosphere. The >nitrogen they use still comes from the soil. (which seems strange to me >given air has 80% nitrogen in it and air is taken in through stomata). >We can surmise though this nitrogen is picked up directly by the >Astrality and developed into alkaloids. Being so directly related to the >astrality these nitrogen alkaloids are not cushioned by ( the astrality >working through ) the etheric body and so do not contain as much oxygen >which would keep them in the sphere of proteins. Even with eatable plant >proteins, these can devolve into cyanide based poisons as they denature >as the oxygen and hydrogen are removed. > >In summary , my aim of this essay has been to indicate the role the >Astral body and its environmental counterparts, terrestrial silica and >light, plays as forces working onto the upward forces and that without >it many of the plant forms, nutritious fruit and medicines we have today >would not be there. Plant growth occurs in between the activities from >above and below and that as biodynamic growers we need to provide the >means by which they can work harmoniously, so that plants can unfold to >their fullest potential. > >Glen A. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ******* The only real rest comes when you are alone with God. Live in the nowhere that you came from even though you have an address here. --Rumi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 16 08:53:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA09171 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA22603; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:38:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.157]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA22386 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:35:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [151.196.126.22] (client196-126-22.bellatlantic.net [151.196.126.22]) by smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA11211 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:38:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199906161238.IAA11211@smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 08:58:35 -0500 Subject: Off: Summer Solstice 1999 From: "Steven McFadden" To: BD now Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3012281915_364587_MIME_Part" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1130 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3012281915_364587_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Greetings to the BDNow Circle, I have been silent for many months while caring for a loved one with a life-threatening illness. Still, she chooses to rise from her bed next monday, and walk to the garden with me where we will take a break from the day -- and join in a silent circle of fellowship with friends and neighbors= . I felt others on this list might also wish to pause and rest in peace at that time -- the golden gateway to the summer at the sun goes all out. Our Circle is inspired by the call of the Native American Elder who holds the first pipe. His message and viewpoint are copied below.. Megwich, Steven Soaring Hawk --------------------------------------------------------------- Summer Solstice 1999 My name is Chief Arvol Looking Horse of the Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota Nation. I would like to share a viewpoint about the "Ethnic Cleansing," mas= s killing of innocent people in Yugoslavia. I am the Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe of Peace, a gift of a sacred bundle given 19 generations ago to my people providing guidance of teachings for assurance of Peace within our lives. The White Buffalo Calf Woman gave this gift of the Sacred Pipe. Along with the teachings of this Sacred Pipe of Peace, have come prophecies passed dow= n from significant people who walked their harmony. They based their lives on teachings given from sacred bundles, such as the Sacred Buffalo Calf Pipe o= r many other gifts of bundles and teachings from the Creator. They foretold of these times of great change, which coincide with many othe= r Nations' archives recording their own Prophecies. The reality of the accuracy of these Prophecies which has predicted events upon Mother Earth, as well as the history of our own people, have come to pass, so we have learned to pay attention. There are foretold Prophecies of a very dark time, more significant than an= y other times in History. We will be at a crossroads in which a dark cloud will envelop the earth, chaos and diseases will erupt and we will witness blood from our relatives eyes. Humankind has to make a decision and have courage to make a stand for Peace, even when their relatives' minds are restrained from spiritual awareness of healing. We still have a chance to choose to make a change. Mother Earth is a living spirit who clothes, feeds and nourishes all walks of life. But when fighting erupts, land and life cease to flourish, as well as the spirit of humanity. Mother Earth needs our help. I call upon the World to Pray at once for Peace, to make your stand spiritually, you must see the ignorance of this situation in Yugoslavia wil= l only make us blinder to our own empowerment of making a positive change for our next generations to come. Pray with me every day at 10:00 AM Central Time for a peaceful resolution to this continuing destruction of the World. You must realize this "disease of the mind" will spread even faster, if we don't take control of our behavior. I have been initiating an event called "World Peace and Prayer Day" to brin= g awareness of these times by uniting the world spiritually on June 21st, praying at the sacred sites, for Global Healing, this being the fourth year to the South in Costa Rica. When this day arrives, please pilgrimage to you= r local sacred site and continue the daily praying that has been done at the time of 10:00 AM Central Time. This is an invitation to the Serbian and Yugoslavian representatives to participate, whether it be in Costa Rica or at your own sacred place of prayer. Please begin to learn to understand the meaning of "Walking in harmony and Peace" in having the courage to transform our spiritual consciousness to love and compassion! This is the real challenge and courag= e in life. As one of our spiritual leaders, Black Elk once said: "One who walks a dark road is distracted, who is ruled by his senses and who lives for himself, rather than for his people". Please "Look upon your children, with their children in their arms, that they may face the winds and walk to the day of quiet." >From which there is no beginning and no ending in the Sacred Hoop of Life, I am sending you this message of Peace from my heart and the sacred altar, may our prayers for Peace be heard, may peace with you all... Hetcetuyelo! Mitakuye Oyasin (all my relations) Chief Arvol Looking Horse, 19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe of Peac= e =D7 Please copy this and pass it on =D7 --MS_Mac_OE_3012281915_364587_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Off: Summer Solstice 1999 Greetings to the BDN= ow Circle,
I have been silent for many months while caring for a loved one with a life= -threatening illness.  Still, she chooses to rise from her bed next mon= day, and walk to the garden with me where we will take a break from the day = -- and join in a silent circle of fellowship with friends and neighbors. &nb= sp;

I felt others on this list might also wish to pause and rest in peace at th= at time -- the golden gateway to the summer at the sun goes all out.  <= BR>
Our Circle is inspired by the call of the Native American Elder who holds t= he first pipe.  His message and viewpoint are copied below..  

Megwich,  Steven Soaring Hawk
---------------------------------------------------------------

Summer Solstice 1999


My name is Chief Arvol Loo= king Horse of the Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota Nation. I would like to share a= viewpoint about the "Ethnic Cleansing," mass killing of innocent = people in Yugoslavia.
 
I am the Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe of Peace, a gift of a= sacred bundle given 19 generations ago to my people providing guidance of t= eachings for assurance of Peace within our lives.

The White Buffalo Calf Woman gave this gift of the Sacred Pipe. Along with = the teachings of this Sacred Pipe of Peace, have come prophecies passed down= from significant people who walked their harmony. They based their lives on= teachings given from sacred bundles, such as the Sacred Buffalo Calf Pipe o= r many other gifts of bundles and teachings from the Creator.

They foretold of these times of great change, which coincide with many othe= r Nations' archives recording their own Prophecies. The reality of the accur= acy of these Prophecies which has predicted events upon Mother Earth, as wel= l as the history of our own people, have come to pass, so we have learned to= pay attention.

There are foretold Prophecies of a very dark time, more significant than an= y other times in History. We will be at a crossroads in which a dark cloud w= ill envelop the earth, chaos and diseases will erupt and we will witness blo= od from our relatives eyes. Humankind has to make a decision and have courag= e to make a stand for Peace, even when their relatives' minds are restrained= from spiritual awareness of healing. We still have a chance to choose to ma= ke a change.

Mother Earth is a living spirit who clothes, feeds and nourishes all walks = of life. But when fighting erupts, land and life cease to flourish, as well = as the spirit of humanity. Mother Earth needs our help.
 
I call upon the World to Pray at once for Peace, to m= ake your stand spiritually, you must see the ignorance of this situation in = Yugoslavia will only make us blinder to our own empowerment of making a posi= tive change for our next generations to come. Pray with me every day at 10:0= 0 AM Central Time for a peaceful resolution to this continuing destruction o= f the World. You must realize this "disease of the mind" will spre= ad even faster, if we don't take control of our behavior.

I have been initiating an event called "World Peace and Prayer Day&quo= t; to bring awareness of these times by uniting the world spiritually on Jun= e 21st, praying at the sacred sites, for Global Healing, this being the four= th year to the South in Costa Rica. When this day arrives, please pilgrimage= to your local sacred site and continue the daily praying that has been done= at the time of 10:00 AM Central Time.

This is an  invitation to the Serbian and Yugoslavian representatives = to participate, whether it be in Costa Rica or at your own sacred place of p= rayer. Please begin to learn to understand the meaning of "Walking in h= armony and Peace" in having the courage to transform our spiritual cons= ciousness to love and compassion! This is the real challenge and courage in = life. As one of our spiritual leaders, Black Elk once said: "One who wa= lks a dark road is distracted, who is ruled by his senses and who lives for = himself, rather than for his people". Please "Look upon your child= ren, with their children in their arms, that they may face the winds and wal= k to the day of quiet."

>From which there is no beginning and no ending in the Sacred Hoop of  = Life, I am sending you this message of Peace from my heart and the sacred al= tar, may our prayers for Peace be heard, may peace with you all...
 
Hetcetuyelo!    Mitakuye  Oyasin (all my relatio= ns) Chief Arvol Looking Horse, 19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred W= hite Buffalo Calf Pipe of Peace

            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;            &nb= sp;         =D7  Please c= opy this and pass it on  =D7
--MS_Mac_OE_3012281915_364587_MIME_Part-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 16 10:11:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11280 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:11:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27230; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:53:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27175 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:53:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp71.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.171]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA00053 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:50:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00e801beb7ff$5c0aaea0$ab4b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: "BD NOW LIST" Subject: Off: New Drugs from Traditional Remedies Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:51:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1131 International Conference on Ethnomedicine and Drug Discovery Theme: Search for New Drugs from Traditional Remedies November 3-5, 1999, Holiday Inn, Silver Spring, Maryland, USA Opening Ceremony: November 2, 1999, The Capitol, Washington, DC Congressman John Edward Porter as the Special Guest of Honor Conference web site: http://www.bioresources.org This is an invitation to attend the International conference on Ethnomedicine and Drug Discovery organized by: Bioresources Development and Conservation Programme, USA (http://www.bioresources.org) Axxon Biopharm Inc. USA (http://www.axxonbiopharm.com) American Herbal Products Association (http://www.AHPA.org) University of Mississippi, USA (http://www.olemiss.edu) Healing Forest Conservancy, USA (http://www.shaman.com/A_shaman.html) Bastyr University, USA (http://www.bastyr.edu) Missouri Botanical Garden, USA (http://www.mobot.org) Alternative Medicine Foundation, USA (http://www.amfoundation.org) The sessions will consist of the following sub-themes: Ethnobotanical approach to drug discovery: strengths and limitations Dietary Supplements - New ingredients from nature Nutraceuticals - an age-long health practice Business opportunities and the role of industry in ethnobotany Ethical and policy issues of bioprospecting Medicinal plants in emerging infectious diseases and AIDS Regulatory requirement and standardization of medicinal and aromatic plants Sourcing of traditional remedies: Case studies of African, Asian, Latin American markets Networking with Shaman and Community reciprocity Healers/Practitioners role in the sustainable use and conservation of botanical medicines Colloquium on Garcinia kola: a dietary supplement derived from traditional medicine We have opportunities for Industries, Manufacturers, Suppliers, Distributors as Sponsors of the conference. The complete Announcement is also attached for your selection. We also have limited 3"x6" table-top conference exhibition spaces for only $500. Additional information is available online at the conference web site at www.bioresources.org. Further, contact the Conference Secretariat at BDCP-Ethnomedicine Conference, 11303 Amherst Avenue, Suite # 2, Silver Spring, MD 20902, USA, Fax (301) 962-6201, Fax (301) 962-6205. Please contact me for further questions. Magnus A. Azuine, Ph.D. Conference Coordinator Bioresources Development and Conservation Programme 11303 Amherst Avenue, Suite #2 Silver Spring, MD 20902, USA Phone (301) 962-6201, Fax (301) 962-6205 E-mail: azuine@bioresources.org From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 16 13:39:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15944 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:39:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14293; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:27:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wavecom.net (root@wave.sheridan.wy.us [206.54.116.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14190 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:25:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dbrown (sher39.wavecom.net [206.54.116.124]) by wavecom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22594 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:24:56 -0600 Message-ID: <008001beb825$fa223880$8d7436ce@dbrown.wavecom.net> From: "Audrey Malan" To: Subject: Re: Summer Solstice 1999 Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:22:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0065_01BEB7EA.7CCB96A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1132 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BEB7EA.7CCB96A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you, Steven, for this message. We in Wyoming will be praying with = all the world at our sacred site. in awe and gratitude for our Mother, = Audrey -----Original Message----- From: Steven McFadden To: BD now Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 5:37 AM Subject: Off: Summer Solstice 1999 =20 =20 Greetings to the BDNow Circle, I have been silent for many months while caring for a loved one with = a life-threatening illness. Still, she chooses to rise from her bed = next monday, and walk to the garden with me where we will take a break = from the day -- and join in a silent circle of fellowship with friends = and neighbors. =20 =20 I felt others on this list might also wish to pause and rest in = peace at that time -- the golden gateway to the summer at the sun goes = all out. =20 =20 Our Circle is inspired by the call of the Native American Elder who = holds the first pipe. His message and viewpoint are copied below.. =20 =20 Megwich, Steven Soaring Hawk --------------------------------------------------------------- =20 Summer Solstice 1999 =20 =20 =20 My name is Chief Arvol Looking Horse of the Lakota, Dakota, and = Nakota Nation. I would like to share a viewpoint about the "Ethnic = Cleansing," mass killing of innocent people in Yugoslavia. =20 I am the Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe of Peace, a = gift of a sacred bundle given 19 generations ago to my people providing = guidance of teachings for assurance of Peace within our lives. =20 The White Buffalo Calf Woman gave this gift of the Sacred Pipe. = Along with the teachings of this Sacred Pipe of Peace, have come = prophecies passed down from significant people who walked their harmony. = They based their lives on teachings given from sacred bundles, such as = the Sacred Buffalo Calf Pipe or many other gifts of bundles and = teachings from the Creator. =20 They foretold of these times of great change, which coincide with = many other Nations' archives recording their own Prophecies. The reality = of the accuracy of these Prophecies which has predicted events upon = Mother Earth, as well as the history of our own people, have come to = pass, so we have learned to pay attention. =20 There are foretold Prophecies of a very dark time, more significant = than any other times in History. We will be at a crossroads in which a = dark cloud will envelop the earth, chaos and diseases will erupt and we = will witness blood from our relatives eyes. Humankind has to make a = decision and have courage to make a stand for Peace, even when their = relatives' minds are restrained from spiritual awareness of healing. We = still have a chance to choose to make a change. =20 Mother Earth is a living spirit who clothes, feeds and nourishes all = walks of life. But when fighting erupts, land and life cease to = flourish, as well as the spirit of humanity. Mother Earth needs our = help. =20 I call upon the World to Pray at once for Peace, to make your stand = spiritually, you must see the ignorance of this situation in Yugoslavia = will only make us blinder to our own empowerment of making a positive = change for our next generations to come. Pray with me every day at 10:00 = AM Central Time for a peaceful resolution to this continuing destruction = of the World. You must realize this "disease of the mind" will spread = even faster, if we don't take control of our behavior. =20 I have been initiating an event called "World Peace and Prayer Day" = to bring awareness of these times by uniting the world spiritually on = June 21st, praying at the sacred sites, for Global Healing, this being = the fourth year to the South in Costa Rica. When this day arrives, = please pilgrimage to your local sacred site and continue the daily = praying that has been done at the time of 10:00 AM Central Time.=20 =20 This is an invitation to the Serbian and Yugoslavian = representatives to participate, whether it be in Costa Rica or at your = own sacred place of prayer. Please begin to learn to understand the = meaning of "Walking in harmony and Peace" in having the courage to = transform our spiritual consciousness to love and compassion! This is = the real challenge and courage in life. As one of our spiritual leaders, = Black Elk once said: "One who walks a dark road is distracted, who is = ruled by his senses and who lives for himself, rather than for his = people". Please "Look upon your children, with their children in their = arms, that they may face the winds and walk to the day of quiet." =20 >From which there is no beginning and no ending in the Sacred Hoop = of Life, I am sending you this message of Peace from my heart and the = sacred altar, may our prayers for Peace be heard, may peace with you = all... =20 Hetcetuyelo! Mitakuye Oyasin (all my relations) Chief Arvol = Looking Horse, 19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf = Pipe of Peace =20 =D7 = Please copy this and pass it on =D7 ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BEB7EA.7CCB96A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Off: Summer Solstice 1999
Thank you, Steven, for this message.  We in = Wyoming will=20 be praying with all the world at our sacred site.  in awe and = gratitude for=20 our Mother, Audrey
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Steven McFadden <tawndor@bellatlantic.net>=
To:=20 BD now <BDNow@envirolink.org>
D= ate:=20 Wednesday, June 16, 1999 5:37 AM
Subject: Off: Summer = Solstice=20 1999

Greetings to the BDNow = Circle,
I have=20 been silent for many months while caring for a loved one with a=20 life-threatening illness.  Still, she chooses to rise from her = bed next=20 monday, and walk to the garden with me where we will take a break = from the=20 day -- and join in a silent circle of fellowship with friends and = neighbors.=20  

I felt others on this list might also wish to pause = and rest=20 in peace at that time -- the golden gateway to the summer at the sun = goes=20 all out.  

Our Circle is inspired by the call of the = Native=20 American Elder who holds the first pipe.  His message and = viewpoint are=20 copied below..  

Megwich,  Steven Soaring=20 = Hawk
---------------------------------------------------------------

Summer Solstice 1999


My name is = Chief Arvol=20 Looking Horse of the Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota Nation. I would like = to=20 share a viewpoint about the "Ethnic Cleansing," mass = killing of=20 innocent people in Yugoslavia.

I am the Keeper of the Sacred = White=20 Buffalo Calf Pipe of Peace, a gift of a sacred bundle given 19 = generations=20 ago to my people providing guidance of teachings for assurance of = Peace=20 within our lives.

The White Buffalo Calf Woman gave this gift = of the=20 Sacred Pipe. Along with the teachings of this Sacred Pipe of Peace, = have=20 come prophecies passed down from significant people who walked their = harmony. They based their lives on teachings given from sacred = bundles, such=20 as the Sacred Buffalo Calf Pipe or many other gifts of bundles and = teachings=20 from the Creator.

They foretold of these times of great = change, which=20 coincide with many other Nations' archives recording their own = Prophecies.=20 The reality of the accuracy of these Prophecies which has predicted = events=20 upon Mother Earth, as well as the history of our own people, have = come to=20 pass, so we have learned to pay attention.

There are foretold = Prophecies of a very dark time, more significant than any other = times in=20 History. We will be at a crossroads in which a dark cloud will = envelop the=20 earth, chaos and diseases will erupt and we will witness blood from = our=20 relatives eyes. Humankind has to make a decision and have courage to = make a=20 stand for Peace, even when their relatives' minds are restrained = from=20 spiritual awareness of healing. We still have a chance to choose to = make a=20 change.

Mother Earth is a living spirit who clothes, feeds = and=20 nourishes all walks of life. But when fighting erupts, land and life = cease=20 to flourish, as well as the spirit of humanity. Mother Earth needs = our=20 help.
 
I call upon the World to = Pray at once=20 for Peace, to make your stand spiritually, you must see the = ignorance of=20 this situation in Yugoslavia will only make us blinder to our own=20 empowerment of making a positive change for our next generations to = come.=20 Pray with me every day at 10:00 AM Central Time for a peaceful = resolution to=20 this continuing destruction of the World. You must realize this=20 "disease of the mind" will spread even faster, if we don't = take=20 control of our behavior.

I have been initiating an event = called=20 "World Peace and Prayer Day" to bring awareness of these = times by=20 uniting the world spiritually on June 21st, praying at the sacred = sites, for=20 Global Healing, this being the fourth year to the South in Costa = Rica. When=20 this day arrives, please pilgrimage to your local sacred site and = continue=20 the daily praying that has been done at the time of 10:00 AM Central = Time.=20

This is an  invitation to the Serbian and Yugoslavian=20 representatives to participate, whether it be in Costa Rica or at = your own=20 sacred place of prayer. Please begin to learn to understand the = meaning of=20 "Walking in harmony and Peace" in having the courage to = transform=20 our spiritual consciousness to love and compassion! This is the real = challenge and courage in life. As one of our spiritual leaders, = Black Elk=20 once said: "One who walks a dark road is distracted, who is = ruled by=20 his senses and who lives for himself, rather than for his = people".=20 Please "Look upon your children, with their children in their = arms,=20 that they may face the winds and walk to the day of=20 quiet."

>From which there is no beginning and no = ending in=20 the Sacred Hoop of  Life, I am sending you this message of = Peace from=20 my heart and the sacred altar, may our prayers for Peace be heard, = may peace=20 with you all...

Hetcetuyelo!    Mitakuye=20  Oyasin (all my relations) Chief Arvol Looking = Horse, 19th=20 Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe of=20 = Peace

          =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p; ×=20  Please copy this and pass it on=20  ×
------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BEB7EA.7CCB96A0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 16 15:02:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA18045 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:02:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21244; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:50:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20869 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:46:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.181.84] ("port 2048"@[148.233.181.84]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FDF00IBRPBR97@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:11:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:49:52 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Poison or Food? In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <37660F69.B11FC36F@xtra.co.nz> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA20873 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1133 >Dear Guilliarmo, James and List, > >I don't know how clear the above is, but I do know I would have expressed >it somewhat differently. > >Most plant "poisons" are categorized as alkaloids. While I'm fairly sure >there must be exceptions, I can't think of any at present. > >My Webster's defines an alkaloid as follows: >"Any of numerous, ususally colorless, complex and bitter organic bases (as >morphine or codeine) containing NITROGEN [my emphasis] and usually oxygen >that occur especially in seed plants." > >As Steiner goes to great lengths in Lecture Three to explain, nitrogen is >the carrier of the astrality--not in its pure molecular (diatomic) form in >the atmosphere, but in its combinations with other substances. > >It is also noteworthy that when we obtain our nitrogen from eating plant >proteins, we must first break these proteins down into their amino acids. >Alkaloids are difficult in this regard. Because of their nature as bases >they do not break down so easily into (amino) acids. (In looking at the >alkalyzing substances such as calcium, magnesium, etc. these are dense, >while the acidifying substances such as the halogens, oxygen, sulfur, these >are light and usually gaseous.) We might say that the nitrogen in such >compounds has become too dense, concentrated, fixed or too resistant to the >process of digestion that is required for a human or animal to absorb and >stamp the nitrogen compounds with its own signature, its unique identity, >its own consciousness. Thus it acts as a poison, anywhere from a slight to >a very considerable degree. Many of these poisons alter consciousness as >well as disturbing various other functions of the body. > >So it is literally quite correct to say the astrality has penetrated too >strongly into the plant in the case of a poisonous plant. Our digestion is >unable to work strongly enough on the complex nitrogen compounds in the >plant to break them down (kill them) and thus liberate their etheric >forces, thus they poison us instead of providing nourishment. > >Hope this helps to better understand astrality. > >Best, >Hugh Lovel Hi Hugh: You always have good contributions; I specially like the way you integrate your biochem with your BD-Antrop. I think coming to terms between our cultural heritage is a smart thing to do, if it is done with the understanding that "undirect" knowledge (other than "rishi" perception) is limited. Can you please expand on the effect of alkalyzing substances (Ca, Mg) in the production of alkaloids ?. It is noteworthy that the aromatic aminoacids (phenylalanine and tryptophan + tyrosine) are the precursors for many alkaloids that we consider potent hormone related drugs (epinephrine, nor-epi.,melanin,mescalin, morphine, codeine, etc.), that in an overdose would kill you, but I would not consider them as poisons ?, can you give examples of the plant poisons you mentioned. On a different theme, can you please expand on the dificulties alkaloids have in order to break down. I was under the impresion that a simple hydrolisis (enzymatic or acid) is enough to break the peptid bond. How is it that the aminoacids in the alkaloids are bound ? With interest and curiosity ("Guilliarmo" for you) Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 16 15:03:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA18093 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21201; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:50:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20864 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:46:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.181.84] ("port 2048"@[148.233.181.84]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FDF00IBRPBR97@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:12:01 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:06:42 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Astrality and Plants In-reply-to: <3765C4B7.275C@xtra.co.nz> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1134 >> My question is: >> how do you draw the line between a poison and a food ? what is "too strongly" in the >> above paragraph? > >Can you digest it without any disruption. Physically through no >flatulance >>diarohrea, cramps or excessive protein excretion, >emotionally by no psychological or emotional explosions, no >hallucinations or death. > >cheers > >Glen A Dear Glen: Thanks for the reply. I am always amaze and overwhelm by the complexity of your posts, but this in one, I am afraid is quite obvious. Remember Lord Buddha middle path ?. (no offense intended, "mate") I was not asking what a poison does to us, but what is "astrality working too strongly in a plant". Based on Hugh's post, I can suspect now that is the intermediation of Ca and Mg in the uptake of N, what do you think ?. Warm regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 16 15:03:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA18101 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:03:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21154; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20859 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:46:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.181.84] ("port 2048"@[148.233.181.84]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FDF00IBRPBR97@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:11:56 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:18:04 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Poison or Food? In-reply-to: <37660F69.B11FC36F@xtra.co.nz> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA20863 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1135 >To Guillermo and List. > >To Clarify the line between a poison and a food, the following passage >from Steiner may be helpfull. > >"Let us focus our attention today on a particular subject; the plant >kingdom in our environment.We know that many plants are consumed as >foodstuffs by animals and human beings and are worked upon in the >process of nourishment and digestion. In the way generally indicated >they can be assimilated into the animal and human organisms. And now >we suddenly come actoss a poisonous plant, let us say henbane or >belladonna. What have we here? Suddenly, among the other vegetation, we >find something that does not combine with the animal and human organisms >as do other plants.Let us be clear in our minds about the basis of plant >-life. I have often spoken about this. Let us picture the surface of >the Earth and the plants growing out of it. We know that the physical >organisation of the plant is permeated by its ether-body. But as I have >often pointed out, the plant would not be able to unfold if the >all-pervading astrality did not contact it from above by way of the >blossom. > The plant has no astral body within it but the astrality touches it >from above. As a rule the plant does not absorb the astrality but only >allows itself to be touched by it. The plant does not assimilate the >astrality but towards the blossom and the fruit there is interplay with >the astrality which does not, as a rule, combine with the ether - body >or the physical body of the plant. > In a poisonous plant, however, it is different. In a poisonous >plant the astrality penetrates into the actual substance of the plant >and combines with it. A plant such as belladonna or, let us say, >henbane, hyoscyamus, sucks in the astrality either strongly or more >moderately and so bears astrality within itself - in an uncoordinated >state, of course, for if it were coordinated the plant would have to >become an animal. It does not become an animal; the astrality within >it is in a compressed state. >As a result, interaction takes place between what is present in a plant >saturated with astrality and the process of assimilation in the animal >and human organisms. If we eat plants that are not poisonous, we absorb >not only those constituents of the plant which the chemist works up in >the laboratory, not only the actual substance of the plant but also the >etheric life-forces; but we must, as I have said here before, destroy >the substance completely during the process of nutrition. In feeding on >what is living, man must kill it within himself. That is to say, >within his own organism he must expell the etheric from the >plant-substance." > >Steiner goes on to describe in detail, the consequences of taking in >henbane or belladonna, from a medicinal point of view, and their >effects on the body. > >Hope this clarifies things a bit. > >Ref: > >The driving force of Spiritual Powers in World History - Rudolf >Steiner, 22nd March 1923 >Bookprint International 1972, Lecture 6 . p. 71 - 78. Thanks James: your quote provides further reference to the relationship of astrality and the nature of plants, but I am still wondering why is it that the poisonous plants take up astrality into the actual substance (physical ?) and the food bearing plants directs it to the fruit and seed ?. Is it safe to assume that in the case of leaf, root, tuber or stem food vegetables, the plant also directs the astrality to this parts and not to others ?. This could explain why some parts of a same plant are edible and others are poisonous (ie. English rhubarb where leaves and roots are edible, but leave's blades and base stalks are poisonous due to the presence of oxalic acid). Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 16 15:14:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA18354 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22400; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22336 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:02:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.162]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990616190435.JKZS311284.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 07:04:35 +1200 Message-ID: <3767F543.266B@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 07:04:35 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Preps and cosmoc pipes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1136 Hugh Would be interested in telling me/us more about the potencies of the preps you are using in your cosmic pipe and how these change over time are the land develops? Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 16 15:23:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA18592 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22944; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:09:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22713 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:06:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.162]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990616190908.JLNI311284.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 07:09:08 +1200 Message-ID: <3767F655.119A@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 07:09:09 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Sth hemisphere crystallisation. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1137 With the winter solstice days away, we in the southern hemisphere are coming into our cosmic silica crystallisation point. I would be most interested in peoples perception of when this event takes place in their area. Please consider this and be senstive with your feelings to this. cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 16 16:20:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA19766 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA27849; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:08:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27689 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:06:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz ([202.50.81.131]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with ESMTP id <19990616200902.JUXK311284.mta2-rme@nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz> for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 08:09:02 +1200 Received: by NT_SVR1 with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 07:58:52 +1200 Message-ID: <6120A29E7C51D0119E9700805F4C5E8D1251FD@NT_SVR1> From: Lynne Sheridan To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Its all new to me too!!!! Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 07:58:51 +1200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1138 Many thanks for the offer of help Tony, We have 21 acres just out of Marton at the northern side. it is Kiwitea loam. I have been involved many years ago with the cut flower industry but mainly as a picker. I enjoyed it then and would like to get back into this type of work again. I have last night sent for a book on BD from the Assoc ( as seen in the Growing Today Mag ) I would welcome any further info though. I would refer to get things right the first time especially if the info is out there. My address is 42 Grey Street, Marton Regards Lynne > -----Original Message----- > From: Rambler [SMTP:ramblerkirk@xtra.co.nz] > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 5:39 PM > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Subject: Re: Its all new to me too!!!! > > Lynne Sheridan wrote: > > > > Yes I too am a new comer to the list and to the ' entire ' concept > of > > BIODYNAMICS. From the info I have read on the list I am completely > lost > > in most of the lingo. > > I am about to start a cut flower and lavender operation. Since I > > presently have a new paddock to plant up from scratch I am keen to > learn > > from others mistakes and knowledge on what I should be focusing on > at > > this time. > > > > Regards Lynne > > > Hi Lynne. Where abouts are you in NZ. Send me your address and I will > send you some information on Biodynamics from The Biodynamic Farming > and Gardening Association of NZ, and some information about biodynamic > flower growing in NZ. I put some informatin together for a Flower > Growers meeting held in New Plymouth in May and could send it to you > to > help you get started. It is not a complicated system of growing if you > follow the basic rules. > Do you have any growing experience? > > Kindest Regards > Tony Robinson > Levin From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 16 17:11:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21102 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:11:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02151; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:54:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01823 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:52:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00E17DEF@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:50:29 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 16 Jun 99 16:52:08 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 16 Jun 99 16:51:51 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:51:44 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Poison or Food? Priority: normal In-reply-to: <37660F69.B11FC36F@xtra.co.nz> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <229C2747997@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1139 After reading the below post, I have two questions: 1) What happens in the case where a plant is poisonous to one animal and not another? Along those lines, what happens when one person is "poisoned" by a plant (say, what is called a "severe allergy") whereas others are uneffected? 2) What is the etheric/astral connection in the case of organisms that are somewhere between plant and animal? I can think of the examples of sea sponges and coral. Sinecely, Anita > To Guillermo and List. > > To Clarify the line between a poison and a food, the following passage > from Steiner may be helpfull. > > "Let us focus our attention today on a particular subject; the plant > kingdom in our environment.We know that many plants are consumed as > foodstuffs by animals and human beings and are worked upon in the > process of nourishment and digestion. In the way generally indicated > they can be assimilated into the animal and human organisms. And now > we suddenly come actoss a poisonous plant, let us say henbane or > belladonna. What have we here? Suddenly, among the other vegetation, we > find something that does not combine with the animal and human organisms > as do other plants.Let us be clear in our minds about the basis of plant > -life. I have often spoken about this. Let us picture the surface of > the Earth and the plants growing out of it. We know that the physical > organisation of the plant is permeated by its ether-body. But as I have > often pointed out, the plant would not be able to unfold if the > all-pervading astrality did not contact it from above by way of the > blossom. > The plant has no astral body within it but the astrality touches it > from above. As a rule the plant does not absorb the astrality but only > allows itself to be touched by it. The plant does not assimilate the > astrality but towards the blossom and the fruit there is interplay with > the astrality which does not, as a rule, combine with the ether - body > or the physical body of the plant. > In a poisonous plant, however, it is different. In a poisonous > plant the astrality penetrates into the actual substance of the plant > and combines with it. A plant such as belladonna or, let us say, > henbane, hyoscyamus, sucks in the astrality either strongly or more > moderately and so bears astrality within itself - in an uncoordinated > state, of course, for if it were coordinated the plant would have to > become an animal. It does not become an animal; the astrality within > it is in a compressed state. > As a result, interaction takes place between what is present in a plant > saturated with astrality and the process of assimilation in the animal > and human organisms. If we eat plants that are not poisonous, we absorb > not only those constituents of the plant which the chemist works up in > the laboratory, not only the actual substance of the plant but also the > etheric life-forces; but we must, as I have said here before, destroy > the substance completely during the process of nutrition. In feeding on > what is living, man must kill it within himself. That is to say, > within his own organism he must expell the etheric from the > plant-substance." > > Steiner goes on to describe in detail, the consequences of taking in > henbane or belladonna, from a medicinal point of view, and their > effects on the body. > > Hope this clarifies things a bit. > > Ref: > > The driving force of Spiritual Powers in World History - Rudolf > Steiner, 22nd March 1923 > Bookprint International 1972, Lecture 6 . p. 71 - 78. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 16 18:10:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA22302 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 18:10:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06837; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vic.ozland.net.au (vic.ozland.net.au [203.20.149.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06745 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mda123.vic.ozland.net.au (mda123.vic.ozland.net.au [203.20.149.173]) by vic.ozland.net.au (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA00954; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 07:52:48 +1000 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 07:52:48 +1000 Message-Id: <199906162152.HAA00954@vic.ozland.net.au> X-Sender: evie@mail.vic.ozland.net.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Ann Murphy Subject: BD Cc: evie@vic.ozland.net.au Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1140 Greetings List Members, I am an interested student,and am frankly a little bewildered by the writings and beliefs of RS. I am an intuitive soul, not unintelligent, and not beyond scientific reasoning...but my heart and soul tells me that plants are imbued with spirit and dare I say, their own soul force. Not only do they respond to earth and atmosphere,but soulful sympathy.If we are truly to heal,ought not we to respect all living creatures? Kind Regards, Ann. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 17 10:16:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05296 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22937; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:01:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22748 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:59:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.124.172]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990617140222.TVMM404633.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 02:02:22 +1200 Message-ID: <3768FFD6.54E@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 02:01:58 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Vanadium -xpost Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1141 A cross post from the agrisynergy list I thought might interest some. GA ---------- From: "ARS News Service" To: "ARS News List" Subject: Vanadium: Nature's "Junk Food" For Plants Date: Wed, Jun 16, 1999, 7:06 AM NEWS RELEASE: Vanadium: Nature's "Junk Food" For Plants ---------- ARS News Service Agricultural Research Service, USDA June 16, 1999 Don Comis, (301) 504-1625, dcomis@asrr.arsusda.gov ----------- MORRIS, Minn., June 16--Gardeners and farmers who are used to checking the N-P-K (nitrogen-phosphorus-potassium) levels on their fertilizer bags may someday be checking N-P-K-V levels in their soil. That's V for vanadium. Vanadium "impersonates" phosphorus and can confuse a plant into eating it instead of phosphorus. That can cause the plant to experience a phenomenon akin to that of people who eat junk food in place of a nutritious meal, reports soil scientist Alan F. Olness with the USDA's Agricultural Research Service. "The hunger goes away but the nutrients never arrive," said Olness, with ARS' North Central Soil Conservation Research Laboratory in Morris, Minn. "Phosphorus is an essential nutrient plants need for growth. But vanadium, a trace element abundant in soils throughout the world, is useless to many plants, including corn, soybean, tomatoes, Impatiens and petunias." Olness plans to study different soil types this summer to see if there is any relationship between soil type and high vanadium content. "During a growing season," he said, "plants may have only two or three time windows during which they can take in phosphorus. If they fill up on vanadium instead, they miss out on phosphorus, because their root cells can't tell them apart. Their growth and development--and yields--suffer. The more vanadium, the more the plant slows down and the lower the yield. For ornamentals, the slowdown could result in less beauty and hardiness." Vanadium captured Olness' interest about a decade ago, when he discovered that it mysteriously reduces soybean yields. "Studying the vanadium effect has been some of the most exciting work of my career," said Olness, who has worked as an ARS soil scientist for 32 years. In the past 3 years, he and colleagues have confirmed earlier work showing t hat plants do confuse this little-known soil trace element with phosphorus. Plants may not be the only organisms misled by vanadium. "Vanadium may be the missing element causing lapses in the accuracy of soil phosphorus recommendations given to farmers and gardeners," Olness said. Standard soil tests don't measure vanadium. Ten years ago, Olness developed a test that does. It also measures the ratio of vanadium to soil phosphorus and other nutrients. Olness said this test could be used to recalculate phosphorus recommendations. The optimum economic amounts of phosphorus would have to be re-determined through research. Scientists would have to consider the soil's ratio of vanadium to phosphorus when they correlate phosphorus concentrations with plant growth. "This could lead to higher phosphorus recommendations in soils that are very high in vanadium--probably over 150 parts per million," Olness said. "But it could also lower phosphorus recommendations in soils with low levels, perhaps under 100 ppm. "And the test can identify soils so high in vanadium that it wouldn't be economical to add the high levels of phosphorus required to boost yields. In that case, the farmer or gardener might want to switch to a crop that needs less phosphorus or a crop variety that blocks or neutralizes vanadium within the plant." There's even hope for the vanadium-befuddled soybean, according to Olness. "We know vanadium 'immunity' can be bred into plants, because we found a soybean variety that is rather unaffected by vanadium. This provides us with hope we can extend the ability of this variety to other crops. One of the next steps is to determine how this variety is controlling vanadium." He plans to expand his soil testing to other states in the Mississippi River Valley. He also plans to develop a phosphorus advisory so farmers can account for the vanadium effect. ---------- Scientific contact: Alan E. Olness, ARS North Central Soil Conservation Research Laboratory, Morris, Minn., phone (320) 589-3411, fax (320) 589-3787, aolness@mail.mrsars.usda.gov. ---------- This item is one of the news releases and story leads that ARS Information distributes on weekdays to fax and e-mail subscribers. You can also get the latest ARS news on the World Wide Web at http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/thelatest.htm. * Feedback and questions to ARS News Service via e-mail: isnv@ars-grin.gov. * ARS Information Staff, 5601 Sunnyside Ave., Room 1-2251, Beltsville MD 20705-5128, (301) 504- 1617, fax 504-1648. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 17 12:05:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08071 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 12:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02413; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:52:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02284 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.7.8]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Thu, 17 Jun 1999 16:51:48 +0100 Message-ID: <37691A71.7F6F@cwcom.net> Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 16:55:29 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Poison or Food? References: <229C2747997@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1142 Anita - I shall be as interested as you to hear what our mentors have to say about the etheric/astral connection in the case of organisms which appear to be halfway between plants and animals (your examples: sponges and corals) but, as a conventionally trained biologist, I have to tell you that these are animals, however plant-like they appear. The broad distinction is quite clear: plants produce their own nutrients from simple substances and sunlight, animals consume the complex substances which are produced by plants and cannot produce these by themselves. I realise that some protistans ('single-celled organisms') can at times appear to be plants and, in other circumstances, animals; and that some plants are parasitic, not producing for themselves; but these are exceptions which could be eliminated, if we wanted to be tedious, by a more elaborate definition. If I could re-phrase your question: in respect of the thread which we are pursuing, do we regard all animals - from the simplest to the most complex, excluding only humans - as the same ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 17 14:53:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12990 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14109; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:40:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand5.global.net.uk (sand5.global.net.uk [194.126.80.249]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13682 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:37:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p5fs07a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.215.96] helo=compaq) by sand5.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 10uh2m-0005hw-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 19:37:45 +0100 Message-ID: <37693F85.7F44@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 19:33:41 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: charity concert References: <199906162152.HAA00954@vic.ozland.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1143 I am helping to organize a concert in London on 7th August At St,James Piccadily,a celebration of music by Vivaldi,by the Georgian Camarata a group of classical musicians who wish to play with all proceeds going to the Soil Association's fighting fund on Genetically Modified Foods.I call on any one around to tell people about it, if you are in the UK try to support it,this represents yet another group of people prepared to do something for the cause. Rex Tyler From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 17 16:04:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA15014 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 16:04:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20057; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:52:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19930 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:51:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00E24DF3@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:50:12 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 17 Jun 99 15:51:52 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 17 Jun 99 15:51:28 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:51:25 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Poison or Food? Priority: normal In-reply-to: <37691A71.7F6F@cwcom.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <240C1AF2D2D@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1144 > Anita - I shall be as interested as you to hear what our mentors have to > say about the etheric/astral connection in the case of organisms which > appear to be halfway between plants and animals (your examples: sponges > and corals) but, as a conventionally trained biologist, I have to tell > you that these are animals, however plant-like they appear. The broad > distinction is quite clear: plants produce their own nutrients from > simple substances and sunlight, animals consume the complex substances > which are produced by plants and cannot produce these by themselves. > I realise that some protistans ('single-celled organisms') can at times > appear to be plants and, in other circumstances, animals; and that some > plants are parasitic, not producing for themselves; but these are > exceptions which could be eliminated, if we wanted to be tedious, by a > more elaborate definition. > If I could re-phrase your question: in respect of the thread which we > are pursuing, do we regard all animals - from the simplest to the most > complex, excluding only humans - as the same ? Tony N-S. > Ok, I'll take your re-phrasing of the question, but I would like to make one more bid for the plant-like qualities of the corals (knowing, as I do, more about them then sponges). Corals certainly behave like animals from their spawning to their eating of small creatures, but they also act like plants, not only because after spawning they do not *move*, but because they also take advantage of sunlight and chlorophil (though, yeah, I know, this is thanks to their symbiotic zoozanthili (sp?)). And isn't it algea that is *officially* somewhere between the two? And (just to be funny) what about a human who is also a couch potato? Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 17 17:23:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA17238 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 17:23:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA26031; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 17:08:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25836 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 17:05:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 7641 invoked from network); 17 Jun 1999 21:06:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.33.24) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 17 Jun 1999 21:06:17 -0000 Message-ID: <029f01beb904$682649a0$7721d2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: Poison or Food? Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 17:00:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1145 Algae are plants, squarely...but Euglena, which are motile flagellate protists, also have chlorophyl, which confuses things... Lichens are especially interesting, being a fungal-algal symbiote, and a mainstay of caribou in the winter.... Insects especially adapt to plant poisons, and a co-evolutionary process is underway, where the animal-plant dialectic works itself out.....plants change, animals change to adapt, etc.... Frank---one man's meat is another man's poison, is a truism indicating that even humans are differently adapted to different food/poisons.... -----Original Message----- From: Anita Graf (Staff) To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, June 17, 1999 3:53 PM Subject: Re: Poison or Food? > Anita - I shall be as interested as you to hear what our mentors have to > say about the etheric/astral connection in the case of organisms which > appear to be halfway between plants and animals (your examples: sponges > and corals) but, as a conventionally trained biologist, I have to tell > you that these are animals, however plant-like they appear. The broad > distinction is quite clear: plants produce their own nutrients from > simple substances and sunlight, animals consume the complex substances > which are produced by plants and cannot produce these by themselves. > I realise that some protistans ('single-celled organisms') can at times > appear to be plants and, in other circumstances, animals; and that some > plants are parasitic, not producing for themselves; but these are > exceptions which could be eliminated, if we wanted to be tedious, by a > more elaborate definition. > If I could re-phrase your question: in respect of the thread which we > are pursuing, do we regard all animals - from the simplest to the most > complex, excluding only humans - as the same ? Tony N-S. > Ok, I'll take your re-phrasing of the question, but I would like to make one more bid for the plant-like qualities of the corals (knowing, as I do, more about them then sponges). Corals certainly behave like animals from their spawning to their eating of small creatures, but they also act like plants, not only because after spawning they do not *move*, but because they also take advantage of sunlight and chlorophil (though, yeah, I know, this is thanks to their symbiotic zoozanthili (sp?)). And isn't it algea that is *officially* somewhere between the two? And (just to be funny) what about a human who is also a couch potato? Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 17 22:28:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA24003 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:28:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA13944; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13799 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip052.computer.net [140.186.252.52]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA23957 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:11:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:13:30 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Off: Summer Solstice 1999 Message-ID: <70465E3768D3A9AB85256794000BDFF8.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1146 Steven McFadden wrote: <> Thank you Steven Soaring Hawk for your vigilance and dedication in spreading your deep love and work for peace and harmony on the planet! I wish that your loved one may also walk in peace especially now in what must be a very difficult journey for you both. Much love and blessings, Jane Sherry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jun 18 14:52:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16361 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 14:52:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26923; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 14:39:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26409 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 14:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.14.221]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:09:12 +0100 Message-ID: <376A6FFE.5954@cwcom.net> Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:12:46 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Poison or Food? References: <240C1AF2D2D@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1147 Thanks, Anita - I know a number of plant-like people, too. A whole lot of animals don't move as adults (think of barnacles, tubeworms, oysters... ) and a number contain plant cells which, in part, relieve them of the need to ingest food from their surroundings. These can, however, exist elsewhere as independent plants. Sloths don't move much and grow micro-plants in their fur (although these don't contribute to their diet) but I guess you wouldn't regard them as plant-like: I've always thought sloth to be a superior term to couch potato, though. Algae are simple, partly because they have fewer needs than land plants, but they still need sunlight - which is why you find them only in shallow water; the ones which seem part-way towards animals must be the microscopic protistans which I referred to, some of which contain chlorophyll and photosynthesise under some conditions, but don't and have to catch/absorb their food under others. Zoologists tend to refer to these as aberrant animals, whereas botanists claim them as plants! Sorry to be so prosaic (pedantic?, pompous?). I know that, when diving on good locations, the reefs seem more like flower-beds than animal tenements - but, through rigorous potty-training, academic scientists have largely lost their sense of poetry, if not beauty - but see the late Prof. T.A. Stephenson for an exception. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jun 18 16:26:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA19888 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA04264; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:13:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04058 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:10:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.19]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990618201314.UYDX364447.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 08:13:14 +1200 Message-ID: <376AA859.B1C@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 08:13:13 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Astrality & Plants >> Poison or Food Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1148 Anita and Tony Below is a passage from "The Twelve Groups of Animals" by Eugen Kolisko. This booklet is a wonderful 20 A5 page journey through the essential formative structures of the animal kingdom and provides a beginning to some of your recent questions. "The COELENTERATA--hydra polyps and medusae (animals such as sea anemones and those which build coral) and an the sponges (which were included in this group in all the older classifications) are characterised by the polarity between the inside and the outside of the organism. These animals are composed of two layers of tissue, the Endoderm and the ectoderm (literally, the inner skin and the outer skin). The basic plan of these animals is a cup, the outer layer of which is formed by the ectoderm and the inner by the endoderm. The different species show variations of this plan, as for instance, the beautiful fringe of tentacles around the rim of the cup of the sea anemone. In this group we find for the first time the formation of inner organs. The differentiation begins between the digestive and the nervous system, the latter forming the outer layer. Haeckel applied his knowledge of embryology (the study of development of living organisms from their earliest rudiments) to his study of the phylum, and by this means he realised that that stage in embryonic evolution in which the embryo loses its spherical shape in order to form something like a cup, and is called a gastrula, can be compared with an adult hydra. These animals are free-living beings corresponding to the gastrula stage of embryonic life. At this point in evolution, the difference between the animal and vegetable kingdoms becomes evident. Those animals which are fixed to the substratum can, however, be thought of as being similar to plants. in this group there may be seen a characteristic dualism which leads to the double generative forms of polyps and medusae. In some species these two forms alternate. in one class of the Coelenterata, the sponges, sea anemones and corals, the polyps-form only is developed, and it leads to a fixed mode of life and then to a plant-like, vegetative growth and solidification. A great part of the solid earth is formed by the deposits of such organisms as rocks (coral rocks, limestone, etc.). The other path of evolution leads to mobility, to soft and pliable tissues, to sexual differentiation and a more animal-like condition. The summit of this is reached in the floating colonies of medusae (soft beings rather like jellyfish in form, and stacked up on one another rather like a stack of plates) colonies where the polypus generation is under the direction of a highly developed medusa. Such a medusa is transformed into an air-bladder and causes the whole colony to neat. It is interesting to compare these organisms with the plant. The corals, which become permeated with mineral substance, correspond to the root organisation. The floating colony Is more like a blossom, and the intermediate forms of hydra are more like leaves. So we find the dualism appearing in the anatomical structure, in the endoderm and ectoderm, in the digestive and nervous systems (in the functions of digestion and perception) and in the polarity of polyps and medusae, and also in the division of the species ;into a coral type in fixed and floating colonies." The gastrula is formed as the astral body pushes in from the outside. This leads to the developnment of the metabolic system developing from inside the half moon shaped and the nerve sense system developing from the outside of the half moon shape. When I think of the plant in relation to this, we have the metabolic system above the ground and the NS system below the ground ie. the belly and head of the agricultural individuality. The Astrality can be seen to be pushing from the top, more strongly than from the bottom, for the metabolic system to become the 'point' of least resistance to allow for the curve to develop. The evolution ofthe animal kingdom occurs simultaneously with the incarnation of the Astral body. The complexity of organ formation is the 'landmarks' which differentiate the progress. This incarnating process would appear to not be just a direct push inwards but more a push and twist which forms into a folded lemniscate form. see Pages 42 -48 in BD Decoded. I hope to have these pictures on my web site through the weekend. more later Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jun 18 17:24:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21304 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:24:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08255; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:12:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08002 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:09:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:09:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199906182109.RAA08002@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 20535 invoked from network); 18 Jun 1999 21:09:53 -0000 Received: from i48-11-10.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO DAVE) (216.26.4.138) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 18 Jun 1999 21:09:53 -0000 X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: OFF: GE Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1149 =======================Electronic Edition======================== . . . RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY #655 . . ---June 17, 1999--- . . HEADLINES: . . RESURRECTING THE UGLY AMERICAN . . ========== . . Environmental Research Foundation . . P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403 . . Fax (410) 263-8944; E-mail: erf@rachel.org . . ========== . . All back issues are available by E-mail: send E-mail to . . info@rachel.org with the single word HELP in the message. . . Back issues are also available from http://www.rachel.org. . . To start your own free subscription, send E-mail to . . listserv@rachel.org with the words . . SUBSCRIBE RACHEL-WEEKLY YOUR NAME in the message. . . The Rachel newsletter is now also available in Spanish; . . to learn how to subscribe, send the word AYUDA in an . . E-mail message to info@rachel.org. . ================================================================= RESURRECTING THE UGLY AMERICAN by Beth Burrows[1] "Attempts to forge the world's first treaty to regulate trade in genetically modified products failed this morning when the United States and five other big agricultural exporters rejected a proposal that had the support of the rest of the roughly 130 nations taking part." -- NEW YORK TIMES, February 24, 1999 Hundreds of diplomats, scientists, United Nations bureaucrats, and public interest group types went to Cartagena, Colombia earlier this year, hoping to conclude a treaty that would help them feel safe with the products of genetic engineering. For four years they had been arguing about environmental and human health dangers, details of risk assessment, procedures for exchanging information and regulating trade, the necessity of ensuring liability and compensation, and so forth. Cartagena was scheduled to be their final negotiation. Worry about genetic engineering had come in the wake of the 1992 Rio Earth Summit and its creation, the Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD). The CBD was based on the idea that all the nations and peoples of the world could get together to safeguard what is left of the world's biological resources. In November, 1995, CBD members decided to develop a biosafety protocol, a binding treaty that would help prevent the products of genetic engineering from harming the living organisms of the planet. By February, 1999, there were 175 members of the Convention on Biological Diversity. The United States was not one of them. The Bush Administration had refused to sign the CBD, partly on the grounds that it "threatened" U.S. technology -- especially the U.S. biotechnology industry -- and partly on the grounds that it would impose unfair financial burdens on the U.S. The Clinton Administration signed the CBD but the treaty was never ratified by the Senate. Although not a member of the CBD, the U.S. sent a large delegation to all CBD meetings, dominated the biosafety discussions, and generally enjoyed most of the privileges and few, if any, of the responsibilities of membership. By the time negotiations in Cartegena were nearing their end, the U.S. was the main player. For whatever reason -- the size of the U.S. biotechnology industry and the hope of other nations not to be left behind, the difficulty of enforcing a protocol without the tacit agreement of the largest biotech player in the world, the extent of U.S. economic might, the amount of testosterone in the State Department, the exaggerated power of transnational corporations, the state of the world's economy -- the rest of the world let the U.S. play the bully at Cartagena. The U.S. was not alone in the role of bully. Five allies -- Canada, Australia, Argentina, Chile, and Uruguay--helped it hold sway over the rest of the world. The six of them, like some Sidney Greenstreet gang in a B movie, were known in Cartagena as the Miami Group (the city in which they had met for the first time). The protocol the Miami Group nixed the last night in Cartagena had already been negotiated into near-impotence. The Precautionary Principle [see REHW #586], cornerstone of the Rio Earth Summit, the ("better safe than sorry") beacon of what to do in the face of insufficient "scientific" evidence, had been reduced to a mere mention of its name in the preamble. Liability, the guide to assigning responsibility if something goes wrong with the products of genetic engineering, had been virtually elimi- nated. Socio-economic concerns, consideration of whether an engineered product could destroy a country's economy or ag- riculture or culture, had been exorcised. The scope of the proposed protocol had been narrowed to such an extent that no one in Cartagena was sure it actually applied to anything. The document allowed trade between countries that signed the document and those that did not, thereby eliminating any in- centive to sign. And the word "label" (as in the need to label genetically engineered food) was nowhere to be found. Virtually everything the biosafety high-ground players had fought for over the years had been lost by the end of the negotiations. Even so, the Miami Group balked at allowing a biosafety protocol which might apply to their genetically engineered commodities. >From the earliest days of the CBD, leadership on biosafety had come from the developing world, not from countries with large biotechnology industries to protect. While the U.S. asserted that the dangers of genetic engineering were being exaggerated, that industry was doing sufficient testing, that too stringent a protocol would not meet the free-trade tests of the World Trade Organization (WTO), the negotiator for the African group, Ethiopia's Dr. Tewolde Berhan Gebre Egziabher, reminded the U.S. that a biosafety protocol was meant to be an environmental treaty, not a trade treaty. While John Neville, representative of the Seychelles, reasoned that "safety not be sacrificed to expediency," Rafe Pomerance, onetime policy analyst with Friends of the Earth and the World Resources Institute, now Deputy Assistant to the Secretary of State, ranted that he was "not going to let anyone do anything that might harm a 68 billion dollar a year industry in the United States." The whole tone of the Cartagena meeting suggested that someone was trying to pull strings. There was gossip that Andrew Young had been sent to Africa before the meeting to whip the biosafety troublemakers into line. There were whispers that President Clinton had made a last-minute phone call to the head of the European Union, seeking to nudge him into the Miami camp. Some of the rumored pressures may have worked. The Europeans had arrived in Cartagena saying that they would play the middle ground "between the extremes" of the Miami Group and the African group. Late the last night, the representative of the European Union, a group of nations whose citizens were demanding labeling, moratoria, and bans, quietly agreed to scuttle the Precautionary Principle. [See REHW #586.] "Its all just the big boys jockeying for market position," explained one diplomat. Further adding to the Byzantine, humid atmosphere was the fact that so many of the early meetings of importance in Cartagena were held in rooms behind closed doors. At almost any hour you could find angry delegates in the corridors outside those doors saying how it all reminded them of "the old colonial game" or "the old days under the Soviets." Whatever was going on, and whoever was really in charge, the Miami group held firm, insisting on a narrowly focused treaty with minimal impact on industry. Claiming the U.S. had made many compromises (but not detailing what they were), Rafe Pomerance later would be quoted in the NEW YORK TIMES saying, "There were two compromises we were not prepared to make. One is to tie up trade in the world's food supply. The second is to allow this regime, without a lot of deliberation, to undermine the W.T.O. trading regime." The Miami Group refused to allow the protocol to apply to their genetically engineered corn and wheat. Arguing that commodities meant for eating and processing do not enter the environment (but not explaining where else it is possible for them to go), they kiboshed the protocol. At about five in the morning, several hours after negotiations were to have concluded, exhausted delegates agreed to the suspension of negotiations. Talks were to be resumed no later than May 2000. The NEW YORK TIMES reported that "bleary-eyed delegates from many nations... expressed fury at the United States, accusing it of intransigence and of putting the interest of its world-leading farming and biotechnology industries above the environment." While the headline in the MIAMI SUN SENTINEL reported just as bluntly: "Critics claim U.S. greed is at root of refusal to sign biosafety treaty." Taking it Personally I was there in Cartagena, pretty bleary-eyed and furious myself. Like many NGO (non-governmental organization) representatives, I had followed the negotiations for years, convinced of the need for a protocol. We had all consulted scientists and put out white papers and published booklets and given workshops and ignored our families while we organized consultations and rallies and whatever else we thought might bring some biosafety. And at the end of it all, none of it seemed to matter. To be there that last night in Cartegena and to realize that the whole world might get no biosafety because one country and its allies refused to allow their genetically engineered commodities to be regulated, to know that there were environmental and human health hazards and they would not be met by precaution, to remember what the head of the U.S. delegation, Melinda Kimble, had said to a group of NGOs the night before -- "The only treaty less popular in the United States than the Convention on Biological Diversity is the Treaty on the Rights of the Child" -- and to recall the audible gasp that followed her remarks as the meaning sunk in: the future was officially unpopular in the United States -- it was too much. Right after negotiations broke down in Cartegena, I ran into someone from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in the corridor; he was on the U.S. delegation. "How can you stand yourself?" I asked him. A nearby delegate from Eastern Europe overheard me and looked shocked. "Beth gets very emotional," the FDA guy explained. "If rationality means risking ecological and human health on the planet for the sake of the profits of one industry," I responded, "then I certainly hope I'm emotional." "You see what I mean?" said the FDA guy to the delegate. "You're an evil man," I told the FDA guy. The listening delegate, who happened to know me, attempted to intervene, "Beth, this is not an evil man. I know him. He's a very nice person. Really." "No," I explained, "this is not a nice person. He may seem like a nice person. He may be very pleasant but he carries an evil message. If I allow myself to think of him as a nice man, if I do not insist that he is personally responsible for the messages he utters, then one day I am certain he will come and tell me that he was only following orders." The delegate got my message. I'm not so sure about the FDA guy. A few steps down the corridor, I ran into the reporter from the NEW YORK TIMES. "Beth, what do you think about all this?" "What do you think I think? The environment's always the loser, always. There was no moral high ground here. There was no scientific high ground. There was just cheap power politics." I was still upset when I got on the plane for Bogota, about two hours later. The plane was full of tired-looking delegates. I found my seat. It was on the aisle. When the window seat occupant showed up, it turned out to be Melinda Kimble, head of the U.S. delegation. I started to laugh. By then, I'd already shouted at her a lot. Everyone on the plane had probably heard me shout at her at least once. I had nothing more to say. I moved my legs aside so she could climb into her seat. I took out a book and turned my back to her as far as I could without undoing the seat belt. I didn't speak to her the whole trip. The politics of shunning. When I got back home, I allowed myself one last useless gesture. I wrote the President. In part, I told him: "There was a lot of bitterness and anger at the end of the negotiations in Cartagena and, while not all such feeling should be attributed to the bullying style of diplomacy favored by our delegation, all the anger and bitterness, I believe, will come to be directed at the people and government of the United States. "Because the United States has demonstrated an ability to push its way into the heart of negotiations among parties to a treaty our country has not yet ratified, it will be assumed, and perhaps correctly so, that we are behind every untoward event, utterance, or outcome associated with this treaty. Every use of 'rules' to subvert or prevent the utterance of opposing views--and there was a great deal of such 'rule' manipulation in Cartagena--will be designated an act of the United States. Every personal slight or embarrassment experienced by any of the delegates--and there were many such slights in Cartagena--will be experienced as an affront committed by the United States. Every utterance about the needs of our $68 billion a year industry will be understood as an attack on the environment and citizens of other countries. Continuous argument about protection of our industries will make us hated. We will be seen as the fat, despised, and privileged members of a society seeking only to make more money and become more privileged... "One of the Third World delegates in Cartagena, a gentle scientist who found himself among many others outside closed doors, waiting to hear news from the few 'real negotiators' within, said to me, 'Beth, I honestly thought I was doing something here. I honestly thought our discussions in the contact groups were meaningful. I honestly thought I was making a contribution worthy of what it cost my government to send me here. But this, where all of us wait while they try to force a protocol by using rules most of us hardly know--this is just brutal power, just like the old colonial days.' "Another delegate asked me on the last day, 'Beth, do they wish to push us into the arms of Sadaam?...'" ========== [1] Beth Burrows is director and president of the Edmonds Institute, 20319 92nd Ave., Edmonds, WA 98020. Copyright (C) Beth Burrows. Reprinted with permission from FOOD AND WATER JOURNAL (Spring 1999). For subscription information contact Food & Water, Inc., 389 Rural Route 215, Walden, VT 05873. Tel. (802) 563-3300. Descriptor terms: biotech; treaties; convention on biological diversity; cbd; biosafety protocol; beth burrows; ################################################################ NOTICE In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107 this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving it for research and educational purposes. 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For further information about making tax-deductible contributions to E.R.F. by credit card please phone us toll free at 1-888-2RACHEL, or at (410) 263-1584, or fax us at (410) 263-8944. --Peter Montague, Editor ################################################################ ======================== David Robison Stellar Processes From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jun 18 19:02:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA23077 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 19:02:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA13530; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13494 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:47:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp267.cy-net.net [208.21.195.76]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18845 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:48:02 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEB9B2.ACABA580@FLYLO>; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:47:46 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEB9B2.ACABA580@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: On labeling (and why it won't happen to GE foodstuffs) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:35:04 -0500 Encoding: 97 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1150 This in from ABOUT.COM, (old Mining Company) Genetically Altered Food Decried By Activists June 18, 1999 WASHINGTON (Boston Globe) - American consumers become unwitting guinea pigs in a poorly understood experiment every time they go food shopping, a diverse group of scientists, activists and even a British supermarket executive warned Thursday. That's because rapidly growing amounts of corn, soy beans and other crops in groceries come from seeds that were genetically altered in a lab, the group said. Gathered for a "National Summit on the Hazards of Genetically Engineered Foods," the group presented petitions with 500,000 signatures to Congress and the US Food and Drug Administration calling for the government to require genetically modified foods to carry labels so consumers will know if the tomato has been treated with fish genes or the corn chips contain genes from bacteria. Thursday's demonstration was the first sign that a deep distrust of genetically altered foods that has swept Europe could catch on in the United States. "Don't I have a right to know what's in the food I select for my children so I can decide for myself what I feed them?" asked Laura Ticciati, executive director of the Iowa-based Mothers for Natural Law that headed the petition drive. But FDA officials, as well as seed company and grocery industry executives, said labeling would only stigmatize the foods, without providing real information. They said the foods are just as nutritious and safe as crops grown from conventional agriculture techniques. "It's not a safety issue. (Federal researchers) reviewed this for the past 20 years. ... They felt comfortable that it was one step further than the selective breeding that scientists have done for years," said Lisa Katic, director of science and nutrition policy at the Grocery Manufacturers of America. But scientists at Thursday's conference questioned how well anyone understands the long-term impact of genetically modified foods. They pointed to a new study showing that pollen from genetically modified corn kills monarch butterflies as proof that these crops haven't been studied enough. "You don't even know what questions to ask because of the time it takes for some of these impacts of genetic modifications to show up," said Richard Strohman, a retired molecular and cell biologist from the University of California at Berkeley and frequent critic of genetic research. And Dr. Gary Kaplan, director of North Shore University Hospital in New York, said inserting genes from other species into plants for human or animal consumption is dangerously unpredictable. He said a diet supplement called tryptophan, produced by genetically engineered bacteria, killed 37 people in 1989, though the exact cause couldn't be determined. Yet American farmers are unquestionably embracing genetically modified seeds, which have only been commercially available for a few years. Already, a quarter of the US corn crop, 35 percent of soy beans and smaller percentages of everything from potatoes to sugarbeets have been genetically modified to increase pest resistance or improve yields. Because federal regulators don't require that the foods be labeled, conventional and genetically altered crops are freely mixed, making it impossible to say definitively what consumer goods contain altered genes. But the American debate over the subject has been remarkably low key. Most politicians, including the Clinton Administration, back the industry as the way of the future for agriculture, boosting agricultural output to match a growing population. Only one member of Congress, David Bonior of Michigan, sent a representative to Thursday's meeting at the Capitol Hilton Hotel. Europeans, meanwhile, have been far more nervous about the trend, especially the British where tabloids call the products "Frankenfoods." The differences have fueled growing trade tensions between the US and Europe as the European Union slows its approvals of genetically engineered products, virtually all of which are coming from American fields. Last month, 36 senators wrote a letter to Clinton warning of a "looming trade conflict" with Europe if Europeans don't ease restrictions on genetically modified foods. But Steven Druker of the Alliance for Bio-Integrity, which has sued FDA to require labeling, believes that Americans would be just as nervous as the Europeans if they knew more about what was in their food. FDA officials have moved to dismiss Druker's lawsuit and promised to review the petitions, but Thursday, they referred reporters to their 1992 policy that no labeling would be required unless there is a reason, such as a potential for causing allergies or increasing antibiotic resistance in humans. Katic of the Grocery Manufacturers Association, who attended the conference, said she saw no reason to change the labeling policy either. "There was a lot of hype. It was not science-based," she said. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 19 00:39:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA27481 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 00:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA27373; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 00:26:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27303 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 00:25:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.140] (max6-12.stc.net [208.210.133.140]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA09593 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 00:25:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: uai@stc.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3762B77D.3759@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 23:39:01 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Astrality and plants - part 3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1151 I've been behind for some time in answering some of the most complex and deserving posts. Sorry, but if I ever catch up, post installments 2 and 3 about Sosei Water, as well as a few other important projects, it may become evident why I've had to set a number of responses on the back burner. We've got a large population and a busy building program going on here, plus I'm traveling, lecturing and manufacturing cosmic pipes. In reference to astrality and plants I believe we all know some important features of this that we do not need Rudolf Steiner to tell us. Once we know that astrality relates to the sense and desire nature and consciousness we can pick out some of the features of the landscape. For one thing, sense and desire expresses itself as digestion and simultaneously as nervous development. There is a desire in the gut that the senses strive to satisfy. Where the plant merely absorbs what exists, depending on forces outside of itself to do the digestion, the animal ingests, digests and absorbs the nutrients from inside itself. The act of ingestion implies ability to pick and choose in a conscious fashion as some things are ingested and digested while others are avoided, rejected or regurgitated. So this nitrogen stuff that drags oxygen into combination with carbon surrounds plants in the atmosphere as diatomic (N2 gas), free or "dead" nitrogen. Bound or "living" nitrogen enters plants through their roots having been digested outside of the plant's body. With the animal, it walks around in the nitrogen gas all right, but it eats some meat and potatoes, digests it, and absorbs its bound or "living" nitrogen from within the confines of its body. So don't we all see and know that plants have no astral bodies and the nitrogen only impinges on them from the outside, while animals have astral bodies as an integral part of their make-up? It's no great mystery. Now as for some plants having the astrality working too strongly into them rendering them poisonous, I tried to clarify this in my post about alkaloids. (This is not to say that such plants embody astrality, only that it works too strongly into them from outside.) I guess I wasn't too clear and Guillermo brought up a number of interesting questions that I want to look more deeply into, though that will have to wait. Basically though, lime drags the gaseous, free nitrogen into combination with hydrogen, oxygen and carbon in the soil and particularly in leguminous plants. I'm not saying that alkaloids cannot arise from organic acids or vice versa. Nor am I saying that alkaloids all contain calcium or magnesium as part of their molecular structure. Nor am I saying that all complex nitrogen compounds containing calcium or magnesium (such as chlorophyll) rate as alkaloids. Nor am I answering the question of how much must nitrogen penetrate a plant before it becomes too much (it seems pretty clear that one man's broth is another's bane). But I think it is clear that lime (CaO, MgO, etc.) are strongly alkalyzing and do draw nitrogen into plants--in the case of alkaloids, too strongly. For those new to this list (bless you!) let's consider why it might possibly be important to talk about nitrogen and astrality. It IS important where and how nitrogen enters the food chain. By eating foods produced with the crude salts used in such abundance in chemical agriculture people develop a crude, unsophisticated astrality so evident in our current culture of instant gratification and trillions of Big Macs sold. It's a whole different thing when one grows alfalfa and thus brings nitrogen into the farm via rhyzobia, into the alfalfa as amino acids and into the daily bread via compost. Then a rich, balanced, patient, highly sophisticated astral development is possible--almost inevitable. Then one may grok the trends of our world without reference to a TV set. Then one might learn to be, do, have and know on the level of conscious cosmic citizenship. Then one can see clear of soulless materialism (Ahriman) as well as distinguishing inspiration from delusory imaginings (Lucifer). This level of development isn't in the cards growing up on a diet of cheeseburgers, fries and cokes, relieved by an occasional bucket of chicken fried in crisco. The price we pay for using cheap nitrogen in agriculture instead of biodynamic compost is about like paying $1 a pound cash for chemically raised hamburger and incurring another $99 worth of environmental damages and loss of potential as compared to paying $6 or $8 a pound cash for BD hamburger and gaining another $50 or $100 value in environmental and cultural enrichment. And in terms of astrality and the cosmos the difference is even greater. Best, Hugh Lovel Glen wrote: >Astrality and Plants - Part 3 > >The next part of looking into the role of the Astrality in plants has >proven the most difficult. It is relatively straightforward to >understand the Astrality working from the outside of the plant inwards >or onto and that its activity is encouraged by the presence of nitrogen. >However we are presented with the situation that nitrogen is present in >most plants and in many cases is vital for the healthy growth of most >plants, however these plants are understood not to incarnate the astral >body. The exception is the legume family, where nitrogen is directly >drawn from the atmosphere and drawn downwards into the soil. In most >other plants we must look for the paths of nitrogen as coming from the >soil moving upwards into the sites and activities it inhabits. > >The first picture this provides is that nitrogen and Astrality, while >related, can exist independently of each other. Or do they? Or is it >that where nitrogen does exist in plant growth its activity appears as a >surrogate astrality process working through the light ether of the >etheric body? > >We find nitrogen is several places. All plants which photosynthesis >make use of nitrogen in the formation of chlorophyll, IU (I understand) >small deposits of protein appear in many plant leaves, while nearly all >seeds contain protein as well. Protein formation is the hallmark of >nitrogen, while poison formation is the other. So the question arises >for me as to what are the paths of the spiritual activity standing >behind nitrogen in its journey through plant growth. > >It is relatively easy to appreciate the Astrality as an external auric >phenomena surrounding plants from above and as such a inhabitant of the >'belly of the Agricultural individual' we are presented with in lecture >2. In lecture 3 and 4 we are also told the Astrality works into the >soil as well, with the fixation of nitrogen from plant residue and >microorganism activity we can see how it can be carried into the Earth >to surround the whole plant from outside. Soil insect attack is but >another manifestation of an unbalanced Astral activity in the soil. > >Lecture 3 tells us of the importance of nitrogen in plant growth and >outlines how the oxygen necessary for growth is 'pulled' to the carbon >by the nitrogen, however in such a manner that neither proteins or >poisons are formed. On the periodic table nitrogen stands inbetween >oxygen and carbon. on the same ring. This nitrogen we assume comes into >the plant from the soil as part of a anion cation complex and in doing >so attracts oxygen, which in turn can then become part of the most >common CHO complexes of carbohydrate and sugars. Interestingly in these >most common of plant substances nitrogen does not feature. Where it does >feature significantly in plant growth is part of the chlorophyll >molecule. This relatively large molecule is produced as a result of >several processes all meeting together. First there are salts coming >from the earth most notably magnesium and nitrogen which is then joined >with carbon dioxide from the atmosphere , in the presence of light. >With light, chlorophyll develops, This sees a magnesium atom ringed by >four atoms of nitrogen followed by a complex of CH&O atoms making a >total of no less than 137 atoms. Without light the Mg combines with the >carbon dioxide and some oxygen from water to produce MgCO3 + H2 ( Living >Energies, C Coates - Pg 220). Here the carbonated Mg is far less >available than the nitrated form present in Chlorophyll. In the >lightless grass IU this leaves quantities of loose nitrogen ( and >hydrogen) in the plant which then causes grass staggers in sheep and >cattle. It is commonly understood that grass staggers occurs from young >lush immature spring growth, especially on artificially fertilised >pasture. Part of the reasoning here is that the grass has grown quickly >in an insufficient light environment, so the grass has not 'matured'. In >short the nitrogen has not been taken up by the Mg and is present in the >plant in a volatile state and is available to create a poisoning effect >evident in the disturbed Astral reaction of convulsive shaking of the >afflicted animal. The reduced magnesium suggesting the nervous system is >the site of this 'astral invasion'. We should also note there is a >greater percentage of Hydrogen being released into the system as opposed >to oxygen given off from photosynthesis. This in turn influences the >Ego, Etheric ratio of any given food which if taken to an extreme will >encourage death. > >Other nitrogen activities in plants show in amino acid formation and the >seeding both processes which need a significant degree of light and >warmth to reach their fulfilment. > >In lecture 3, we are told how when the nitrogen enters the plant it >changes from dead nitrogen to an alive nitrogen. Similarly when the >light ether enters the Earth it becomes a bound form, which IU then >works on the plant from below. This process as indicated by Malcolm G. >earlier, suggests the nitrogen and light is taken up by the etheric body >processes within the plant. Given the need for (Free) light if nitrogen >is to function adequately, we can imagine it is the bound light ether >which has a special affinity for nitrogen inside the plant. We can see >though that this bound light still needs external free light for the >nitrogen to reach its optimum goal in photosynthesis. > >In earlier parts of this essay I attempted to outline how we can see the >workings of light and Astrality on plant form. Leaf indentation, >flowering and the nutritive quality of protein formation in seeds are >manifestations of and influenced by the strength of Astrality working >onto the plant from outside. If we alter the balance of the etheric >forces moving upwards and the Astrality moving downwards - eg. simply by >adding or subtracting water or light - we alter the manifestation of >all these things. Interestingly this picture is very similar to that >presented to us about Calcium and Silica in lecture 1 and 6 and in the >working of 500 and 501 at the end of lecture 4. This strongly suggests >the relationship of the etheric body to calcium and the astrality to >Silica. The question is though which Calcium and which Silica process. >As we have suggested earlier the Ca & Si processes are actually a >fourfold activity. > > The etheric forces which originate from Brahma beyond the Cosmic egg >(Lovel) are concentrated in the Earth atmosphere before being drawn and >held close to and into the Earth. We are told in Lec. 2 how this is >achieved through the incorporation of humus into the soil. From here it >combines with the Earthly calcium processes held in lime and the Cosmic >silica processes held in the mineral silica to begin moving upwards, >with the aid of clay. This etheric / calcium activity brings bulk and >size to the plant. We have identified the calcium process involved in >this as the Cosmic Calcium as it is drawn from the atmospheric >homeopathic calcium and incorporated into the humus from both old plants >and directly into the soil from this source. > >As this upward thrust moves away from the Earth it is met by the >Astrality. Leaf forms change and indent, flowering is ignited, sugars >and essential oils begin to be produced and fruit gain food value. All >of these activities are increased through the spraying of 501. Light is >increased around the plant and the Astrality can work more strongly. As >RS tells us at the very end of lecture 4, 501 increases the downward >movement of force while 500 increases those forces coming upward from >the earth. From this, and the lec. 2 statements about how silica sand >facilitates the terrestrial silica processes we can determine that 501 >works strongly with the empowerment of the Astrality. On many occasions >I have noted an increase in pest attack after spraying 501. This has >become one of the signs of wether I have overstepped the balance point. >All this can be altered by strengthening the upthrusting etheric forces. >Leaf metamorphsis can be reversed, fruit stop ripening, alkaloid levels >decrease and flowering stops. Plant form then is an interplay between >the up moving etheric/physical/ego complex bounded, contained and >sometimes constricted by the astrality. > >AIUI, With poisonous plants we have a slight variation on the above >theme. We have the interesting picture of the astral body incarnating >more deeply into the plant, from the outside inwards. These plants >though do not apparently take nitrogen in from the atmosphere. The >nitrogen they use still comes from the soil. (which seems strange to me >given air has 80% nitrogen in it and air is taken in through stomata). >We can surmise though this nitrogen is picked up directly by the >Astrality and developed into alkaloids. Being so directly related to the >astrality these nitrogen alkaloids are not cushioned by ( the astrality >working through ) the etheric body and so do not contain as much oxygen >which would keep them in the sphere of proteins. Even with eatable plant >proteins, these can devolve into cyanide based poisons as they denature >as the oxygen and hydrogen are removed. > >In summary , my aim of this essay has been to indicate the role the >Astral body and its environmental counterparts, terrestrial silica and >light, plays as forces working onto the upward forces and that without >it many of the plant forms, nutritious fruit and medicines we have today >would not be there. Plant growth occurs in between the activities from >above and below and that as biodynamic growers we need to provide the >means by which they can work harmoniously, so that plants can unfold to >their fullest potential. > >Glen A. ***** See it like it is and don't let it bother you. Inhale the delicate fragrance of whatever roses bloom. Appreciate the haunting near-freshness of those summer showers that too briefly settle the dust. Oh such watery broth! How it keeps us moving in this parched and salty desert; how it sustains our glimpses of sweet mountains welling up in our minds' eyes. Think not there's only gristle on this soup bone. Praise God there's so much water in the soup. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 19 00:39:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA27486 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 00:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA27342; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 00:26:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27294 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 00:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.140] (max6-12.stc.net [208.210.133.140]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA09573 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 00:25:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: uai@stc.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6120A29E7C51D0119E9700805F4C5E8D1251FC@NT_SVR1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:08:20 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Its all new to me too!!!! Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1152 >Yes I too am a new comer to the list and to the ' entire ' concept of >BIODYNAMICS. From the info I have read on the list I am completely lost >in most of the lingo. >I am about to start a cut flower and lavender operation. Since I >presently have a new paddock to plant up from scratch I am keen to learn >from others mistakes and knowledge on what I should be focusing on at >this time. > >Regards Lynne Dear Lynne, I can understand a new person's confusion when first encountering biodynamics. There's a wealth of valuable information there, but an unabridged dictionary is no help with such terms as "ether" and "astrality," to say nothing of how this might possibly relate to oxygen and nitrogen or what it might mean in terms of one's growing methods or daily activities. Initially one can hardly hope to make sense of it, and yet what one CAN make sense of on this list usually contains good information, useful insights and practical suggestions. As with any other complex subject, there are some in biodynamics who write to impress rather than to inform--but there's not usually much of that on this list. It may help to visit the BD Now! website (sorry I don't know how to provide that link) and find my glossary which may help to explain some of the terms in use. I'd suggest you get a copy of my book, A BIODYNAMIC FARM, except it is out of print until the second edition comes off the presses. Above all, you can just ask questions. Rest assured that what you may fear is a "stupid" question is more than likely a basic question that will shed light on things for many people. There is also the prospect of reading Steiner's lectures on agriculture, and this book IS available from JPI, the BD Association and elsewhere. Be forewarned it can be difficult reading for beginners, it has no glossary, and the information in it is extremely rich--even dense. So you may have to just let those posts that are too difficult pass you by for a while, deal with what makes sense and ask questions. Hang in there and you're sure to learn a lot. Best, Hugh ***** See it like it is and don't let it bother you. Inhale the delicate fragrance of whatever roses bloom. Appreciate the haunting near-freshness of those summer showers that too briefly settle the dust. Oh such watery broth! How it keeps us moving in this parched and salty desert; how it sustains our glimpses of sweet mountains welling up in our minds' eyes. Think not there's only gristle on this soup bone. Praise God there's so much water in the soup. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 19 09:25:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA00610 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11194; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:10:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11093 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp202.cy-net.net [208.21.195.11]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25494 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 08:07:19 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEBA2A.9B28FCE0@FLYLO>; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 08:06:16 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEBA2A.9B28FCE0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Its all new to me too!!!! (The Biodynam calendar) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 07:55:33 -0500 Encoding: 17 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1153 The discussion of a biodynamic 'chain of events' calendar came about awhile back and I kept hoping someone might have a working calendar on their webside. None were posted so I'm asking now, if someone has worked up such a calendar, and is it available anywhere on the web? On June 8, Gareth wrote up a great description of the workings of calendar interpretation, which I saved to a doc file. And, the 'Manifestations' graph that (?) can't recall who put it up, but it's also useful and educational as a mapping tool. (Hubby has a large CAD printer for blueprints he gets in on the jobsite, he printed this out in color on 11 x 14 paper, and it's impressive!!) Anyhow, my question is, IS there a calendar everyone refers to, or is this a do-it-yourself project? martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 19 09:38:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA00691 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:38:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11690; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11554 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:23:04 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com (4534) by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id hJGCa14474 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:22:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <629853db.249cf3a2@aol.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:22:42 EDT Subject: Re: biodynamics To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1154 I am fairly new to BD, having only learned about it through "Secrets of the Soil." Could someone explain the costs of the 500-507 treatments, and if you have to create them yourself, or if there's a place to buy them from? I'm also curious if anyone has used any of the other agricultural products written about in Secrets of the Soil, such as Sonic Bloom, Azomite, or the Cosmic Pipes. Thanks for any information. Joey From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 19 10:08:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00930 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:08:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12496; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:55:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12419 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:53:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.110] (pm3shep3-163-135.intrepid.net [209.190.163.135]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA00322 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:54:14 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:54:03 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Wendell Berry in Shepherdstown Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1155 Wendell Berry will be speaking at the Orion Conference outside of Shepherdstown, WV this Monday and Tuesday. (topic of Tuesday's presentation: "One Agrarian's Perspective.") I have the incredible priviledge to be interviewing Wendell on Monday afternoon. As you are probably aware, Wendell Berry has a 'deep disinterest' in the press and is noted for not allowing the press access to him. It's a great honor for me to be able to ask him a few questions for ACRES USA and a British literary magazine I interviewed Ken Kesey for a while back. If you have any suggestions of questions for Wendell or of topics, please pass them to me via BD Now! or privately. I will have a very short time with him and he is a noted monologist, but if I get a chance, I'll put forward your question...or incorporate it into the ACRES interview. Thanks! Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA BIODYNAMICS Now! temp mailing address: POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 19 10:26:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01289 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:26:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13002; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:12:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12926 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:10:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp202.cy-net.net [208.21.195.11]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA30657 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:10:41 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEBA33.6FC2FA20@FLYLO>; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:09:29 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEBA33.6FC2FA20@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Wendell Berry in Shepherdstown Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:06:39 -0500 Encoding: 2 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1156 Hope you'll be able to tape his speech and your interview and post the results to your web pages later on. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 19 11:53:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01924 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15864; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:40:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15799 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:38:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.110] (pm3shep1-163-24.intrepid.net [209.190.163.24]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13273 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:39:16 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BEBA33.6FC2FA20@FLYLO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:42:07 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: RE: Wendell Berry in Shepherdstown Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1157 >Hope you'll be able to tape his speech and your interview and post the >results to your web pages later on. In some form, at some time in the future, most definitely, Martha! -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 19 12:02:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01990 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 12:02:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16247; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16190 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.3.230]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 16:49:49 +0100 Message-ID: <376BB6B0.2CD@cwcom.net> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 16:26:40 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Astrality & Plants >> Poison or Food References: <376AA859.B1C@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1158 Glen - Thanks for your helpful contribution. Haeckel's theories have been very helpful but, I'm afraid, have long since been superseded. There are many exceptions to his ideas of recapitulation. It is now clear that sponges (Porifera) and most coelenterates (Cnidaria, particularly the jellyfish Scyphozoa) do go through a gastrula stage of development, even if it is formed atypically. It is also generally agreed that many cnidarians cannot be regarded as only two-layered, which would require all cell-types in the mesogloea (the middle layer) to be derived from either the ectoderm or the endoderm. I'm not qualified to argue to what extent these relatively simple and often sedentary animals can be regarded philosophically/spiritually as plants (which was essentially my question) but, biologically, they seem to have no more in common with plants than any other animals. Do you know to what extent Kolisko was writing as an anthroposophist, rather than in reference to conventional biology? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 19 15:07:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA03282 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:07:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26438; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 14:54:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26042 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 14:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts2-14.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.199.46]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA15486 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:51:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002101beba84$ada0d280$2ec76cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: Subject: Re: Wendell Berry in Shepherdstown Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:49:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1159 Allan and the List: A wonderful coup for you, Allan, to be interviewing press-shy Wendell Berry. My question for him: a decade and a half ago he wrote an essay titled "Why I won't be buying a computer". Those were the days when about the most exciting thing a home PC could do was word processing. Now I wonder what he may be thinking about the research capabilities of the WWW and the planet-wide communication possibilities for folks like those on the BDNOW! list, through email. Is he still a Luddite, computer-wise? What a friend to farmers is Wendell Berry! As I try to walk his talk and expand on the thoughts in his essays where I've immersed myself over and over again, I'm forever grateful to him. Actually had a conversation with him when I was a grad student in English at the U of Ky where he taught in the mid-60s...he'd have no reason whatever to remember that conversation, but it was the highlight of my academic career there. Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Saturday, June 19, 1999 7:54 AM Subject: OFF: Wendell Berry in Shepherdstown > Wendell Berry will be speaking at the Orion Conference outside of > Shepherdstown, WV this Monday and Tuesday. (topic of Tuesday's > presentation: "One Agrarian's Perspective.") > > I have the incredible priviledge to be interviewing Wendell on Monday > afternoon. As you are probably aware, Wendell Berry has a 'deep > disinterest' in the press and is noted for not allowing the press access to > him. It's a great honor for me to be able to ask him a few questions for > ACRES USA and a British literary magazine I interviewed Ken Kesey for a > while back. > > If you have any suggestions of questions for Wendell or of topics, please > pass them to me via BD Now! or privately. I will have a very short time > with him and he is a noted monologist, but if I get a chance, I'll put > forward your question...or incorporate it into the ACRES interview. > > Thanks! > > Allan Balliett > Claymont Farm CSA > BIODYNAMICS Now! > temp mailing address: > POB 3047 > Shepherdstown, WV 25443 > Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 > FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 19 19:45:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA06258 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:45:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09898; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:32:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sol.nextfrontier.net (2093774.nextfrontier.net [209.3.77.4] (may be forged)) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09808 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:29:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ra (du93.nextfrontier.net [209.3.77.93]) by sol.nextfrontier.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01443 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:26:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ra@nextfrontier.net) Message-ID: <007e01bebab2$0ba59aa0$5d4d03d1@ra> From: "Ron Ashmore" To: Subject: Re: Wendell Berry in Shepherdstown Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:15:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1160 Is this an open to the public talk? And if so, how would I go about getting in? Thanks. Ron -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, June 19, 1999 9:53 AM Subject: OFF: Wendell Berry in Shepherdstown >Wendell Berry will be speaking at the Orion Conference outside of >Shepherdstown, WV this Monday and Tuesday. (topic of Tuesday's >presentation: "One Agrarian's Perspective.") > >I have the incredible priviledge to be interviewing Wendell on Monday >afternoon. As you are probably aware, Wendell Berry has a 'deep >disinterest' in the press and is noted for not allowing the press access to >him. It's a great honor for me to be able to ask him a few questions for >ACRES USA and a British literary magazine I interviewed Ken Kesey for a >while back. > >If you have any suggestions of questions for Wendell or of topics, please >pass them to me via BD Now! or privately. I will have a very short time >with him and he is a noted monologist, but if I get a chance, I'll put >forward your question...or incorporate it into the ACRES interview. > >Thanks! > >Allan Balliett >Claymont Farm CSA >BIODYNAMICS Now! >temp mailing address: > POB 3047 > Shepherdstown, WV 25443 >Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 >FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 19 23:25:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07655 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17809; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:12:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17727 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:09:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.110] (pm3shep1-163-30.intrepid.net [209.190.163.30]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA27743 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:09:39 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <007e01bebab2$0ba59aa0$5d4d03d1@ra> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:12:31 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Wendell Berry in Shepherdstown Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1161 >Is this an open to the public talk? And if so, how would I go about getting >in? > >Thanks. Ron Monday at 8PM Wendell will read from his works (as will Peter Matthiessen (sp?) and others). 8am the next day Wendell will conduct a 'class' on 'One Agrarian's Perspective.' Cost is $5 for each reading and $75 for the full day of Tuesday, incl two meals. Camping (and maybe some shared rooms) is still avail. at Claymont. For more info: www.orionsociety.org and then check out "Fire and Grit." See you there!! Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA BIODYNAMICS Now! temp mailing address: POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jun 20 08:39:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA13220 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03962; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:27:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03863 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.110] (pm3shep3-163-151.intrepid.net [209.190.163.151]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA02634 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:24:27 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002101beba84$ada0d280$2ec76cce@netacc.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:37:02 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Wendell Berry in Shepherdstown Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1162 >Allan and the List: > >A wonderful coup for you, Allan, to be interviewing press-shy Wendell Berry. >My question for him: a decade and a half ago he wrote an essay titled "Why >I won't be buying a computer". Those were the days when about the most >exciting thing a home PC could do was word processing. Now I wonder what he >may be thinking about the research capabilities of the WWW and the >planet-wide communication possibilities for folks like those on the BDNOW! >list, through email. Is he still a Luddite, computer-wise? Thanks for the encouragement and ideas, Woody. Do you recall where that anti-computer essay appeared? Was it a 'Whole Earth' thing? > >What a friend to farmers is Wendell Berry! As I try to walk his talk and >expand on the thoughts in his essays where I've immersed myself over and >over again, I'm forever grateful to him. Actually had a conversation with >him when I was a grad student in English at the U of Ky where he taught in >the mid-60s...he'd have no reason whatever to remember that conversation, >but it was the highlight of my academic career there. I was asking for some tips from Fred Walters, the editor of ACRES, on how to get from Wendell Berry in the interview subjects that w.b. of the greatest interest to ACRES readers. Fred just laughed, "Don't worry, it'll be a monologue. Once you ask him that first question, he won't stop talking until your time is up." In a way, I guess, that would be a big relief...as long as the recorder holds up! :-) Thanks again, -Allan Balliett PS There is also a grass-based dairy workshop here in Jefferson Co on Tuesday. If you can attend, please let me know. (It is being conducted by WVU at a local dairy farm.) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jun 20 13:23:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15618 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:23:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24259; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23834 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:59:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.134.143] (max7-36.stc.net [208.210.134.36]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA01407 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:00:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <629853db.249cf3a2@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:03:43 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: biodynamics Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA23836 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1163 >I am fairly new to BD, having only learned about it through "Secrets of the >Soil." Could someone explain the costs of the 500-507 treatments, and if you >have to create them yourself, or if there's a place to buy them from? I'm >also curious if anyone has used any of the other agricultural products >written about in Secrets of the Soil, such as Sonic Bloom, Azomite, or the >Cosmic Pipes. Thanks for any information. > >Joey Dear Joey, Contact the Josephine Porter Institute (JPI) 540 930 2463 P. O. Box 133 Woolwine, VA 24185 They have all the preps, prices, methods for you to use these things. As for cosmic pipes, that's me. I've been working with cosmic pipes for around 14 or 15 years now, and I've learned a lot. Done properly this is the most effective method I know of. If you have large acerages to cover with preps this is also by far the cheapest way to apply the preps. Here's some information about cosmic pipes: **************************************************************** Starting out with a Cosmic Pipe **************************************************************** A Cosmic Pipe is a self-driven etheric broadcaster used directly in the field to balance and enhance the energies of both soil and atmosphere. No power is required as it simply connects the energy fields that are already there. Nor does it use up the reagents in its wells, as it simply broadcasts their characteristics. Because the BD preps are of unusually potent living character, and because the life forces move from low concentration to high concentration, having BD preps in the cosmic pipe as reagents turns the pipe into a very strong channel of etheric energies. And it sure beats mucking around with heavy spray equipment trying to spray biodynamic preparations, especially when conditions are inconvenient for this. Since etheric energies are attracted to and build up wherever there is an etheric accumulator, and since the biodynamic preparations are amongst the most intense etheric accumulators, the biodynamic preparations are some of the most effective reagents. Experience has shown, however, that each preparation is part of a whole picture, and no one part of this picture can safely be stimulated to any great extent without attending to all the other parts. So all the preparations should be used in concert in the pipe. Of course every field and its environment is a little one way or another. By using homeopathic potencies the relationship between the various preparations may be fine-tuned for each location to achieve some approximation of optimum balance for the farm organism. Cosmic Pipes come in two sizes: Garden Pipes cover 10 acres or more and include a reagent package of 4 BD prep reagents plus homeopathic milk and honey. Potencies must be determined for each location. ($695) Field Pipes cover 100 acres or more and also include a full package of six reagents whose potencies are determined for each location. ($995) Pipe orders should be accompanied by a copy of an aerial photo with boundaries marked or a land platt similarly marked. Suggested sites for pipe placement can be determined for each pipe. **************************************************************** The Cosmic Pipe Part III: "The men who are now practical technicians will soon discover they are standing before a complete change as to what one calls practical, when man will be involved with his will in the objective feeling of the world." --Rudolf Steiner Starting Out With a Cosmic Pipe By Hugh Lovel The author and researcher indicates he can't say for sure he's gotten all the bugs out of the Cosmic Pipe, but over the course of 12 years he's developed it into the best method he's seen for applying the BD preps. It beats the environmental impact of electricity, petroleum and bulky equipment, and it gets the preps out VERY well. "Which," he says, "In no way means it can't be improved. Rather, I'd be inclined to say it is still relatively crude and primative even though a big step forward. It's much cheaper than most other methods in both money and time spent. So far I don't know near enough yet to offer guarantees. Just about every really new development takes a decade or two of practical application to reach that level. Look how long it took steamboats to catch on. Yet, the lucky ones were those who got in on the ground floor of the industry." ****** What Is the Limit? How much farther can farming go down the road of massive truck bills, expensive fertilizers washing downstream, toxic rescue chemistry, bank forclosures and nutritionally worthless production? How much longer can the farming community turn blind eyes, deaf ears and stone hearts on the need for self-sufficiency? When, finally, will the need for holism become so great the survivors can no longer resist it? For so long now it's been customary to view farms as parts collections. Only a rare individual senses how farms might function as healthy living organisms. And by that I mean intelligent, sensitive, self-regulating farms that actively purify, nourish and circulate, with well-formed structures and healthy metabolisms within their borders. Anything less than this fails to support the spirit and is not truly sustainable. Why BD? Biodynamic farming is spiritual farming. Its purpose is to nourish the human spirit, not to invent a liver machine to put farms on along with the kidney, heart, lung and intravenous feeding devices already in use. How would Stradivarius build a violin or Heifitz learn to play it in shock on life support machinery? Only by attending to all the needs of a healthy organism can we have farms that nourish the human spirit. Most of all this requires intelligence and sensitivity. By treating a farm as a living organism biodynamics acknowledges, not only that a balance of organic activities must take place, but that the farm must be able to absorb energy from its cosmic surroundings and build it up, imparting this energy to the food it grows. After all, we eat food for the energy it gives us, not for its substance. The farm organism's health and vitality depends on striking a balance between the plant's upward formative photosynthetic dynamics that leads to ripe fruits and grains and the animal's downward transformative digestive dynamics that leads to humus and soil fertility. Within this self-sufficient balance of plant and animal activities what we secure for human nourishment is the tastiest and most vital food available in the world today. Creating Farm Organisms No doubt one of the greatest difficulties biodynamic agriculture faced in its first 75 years was creating new farm organisms. The tools for this, the biodynamic preparations, existed since biodynamics was born. But getting people to use these tools effectively to create biodynamic farms has been agonizing. It was not enough to explain that the preps were catalysts-- seeds--which gave rise to complete and balanced life functions so that a hospitalized agriculture might become a potpourri of healthy farm organisms. Only rare, occasional farmers saw the sense of what seemed like extra trouble and expense to stir and spray 500 and 501 and make compost with the other preps. It looked like one more thing to do. It didn't fit the mindset of fighting with a post Pandora environment while inputing costly fertilizers and extracting perishible crops. When all are wage slaves in a world of wage slavery, who notices the depravity of this servitude or seeks the philosopher's insight, the nobleman's leisure rather than the treadmill? If the path to freedom is too baffling and too challenging few venture on it. Yet there comes a time when those who climbed over the walls report back, bringing tales of verdant realities beyond former hope. Yes! The biodynamic preparations really work and they really get farms off the life-support machinery, out of the doctor's office and functioning on their own. Here and there maybe there's still some emphysema, heart disease, blindness, dull thinking, infirmity, sclerosis and the rest. But even so, isn't it great to ride the river, write a song, work with a fine telescope or prospect for gold? Isn't it hopeful to find that after 75 years the biodynamic preparations are not nearly so confusing or hard to apply as previously thought? The Importance of Boundaries Over the past dozen years of using the Cosmic Pipe to apply BD preps any number of realizations occurred. Probably none were more important than grasping the importance of boundaries. All living organisms have boundaries. Call it skin or cell membranes or whatever. If an organism dies its boundaries break down and it goes into dissolution. Thus having weak or indistinct boundaries is not a characteristic of healthy organisms. One can see this with cloud formation. When the atmosphere is sparkling and alive cloud formation is very distinct. When the atmosphere is polluted and dead, cloud formation is hazy, weak and obscure. One can also see this with hens' eggs. The healthiest eggs with the most vitality will have tight membranes and yolks that really stand up in the frying pan. But if you break open an egg where the yolk membrane has broken down and the yolk has mingled with the white, throw it out. It's not fit to eat. What this means is that a biodynamic farm or garden needs to make its boundaries clear and operate as an integrated unit within those parameters. Otherwise it cannot contain and build up its vital forces. And the first rule of these etheric (vital) forces is that, unlike substance which tends to go from high concentration to low concentration, ether goes from low concentration to high concentration. This means the most ether-charged farms and gardens get the strongest flows of life forces. Thought Forms The question that immediately arises in regard to applying BD preps with a Cosmic Pipe is how to set the farm or garden boundaries so the pipe broadcast goes all the way to the farm or garden's edge but no farther. It would seem there is no hardware in the pipe to do that. Nevertheless this is much easier than might be imagined. All that is really needed is thought forms in the wells. There may be several ways of accomplishing this, but for the sake of simplicity one need know only a couple. One of the ways boundaries are established in the world is by cultural agreement. Using a copy of the deed with its boundaries outlined one need only write the intent to "Keep the broacast within the boundaries as marked." This creates a thought form. With a copy in each well the pipe's broadcast will conform. Besides it is a questionable practice to treat your neighbors' property without their fully informed consent. (Because the pipe is made with things like PVC glue, silicone caulk, etc. it is a good idea to also write the intent to "Keep the construction materials from contaminating the broadcast.") Incidentally, as a research tool for understanding the effects of each prep the Cosmic Pipe is quite revealing. In my first use of a Cosmic Pipe I piped biodynamic preparation number 507 all by itself into the soil's etheric field. In two months I had carrots blooming in their first year and corn (maize) tasseling with no ears. Radishes bloomed and died--no roots, no seed--in just four weeks. Doubtless I wouldn't want to produce crops this way, nor live or even hang out for too long in such an experiment zone. This is another reason for keeping the pipe broadcast within bounds. It might be a good way to grow specific medicinal herbs with strongly enhanced curative characteristics, and come the day when we have funds, can design experiments and hire technicians this should be looked into. Balance As the above experiment with BD 507 illustrates, the Cosmic Pipe is a powerful broadcaster that can seriously affect the balance of energies unless a finely tuned concert of reagents is used. In the early days of Cosmic Pipe research unbalanced reagents were one of the most revealing indications of how these instruments worked with the ethers. Although there are farms and occasions when one or another prep deserves emphasis, Hugh Courtney's assertion that BD farms should use all the preps, including the oft-omitted 508, proved true time and again in Cosmic Pipe experiments. Each preparation embodies a different function of the complete farm or garden organism. 500 provides intelligence, 501 sensation, 502 excretion/purification, 503 digestion/assimilation, 504 circulation, 505 structure, 506 regulation, 507 metabolism and 508 boundedness. This is the minimum combination of reagents for producing an integrated farm organism. Other reagents may be added, such as homeopathic milk (for nourishment) and honey (for ripeness, maturation) or even homeopathic rock powders. But the basic preps are the basic group of reagents necessary to achieve an integrated, balanced start. Tuning Reagents By itself without reagents the pipe is nothing special. It is like a radio station that is off the air. But with a balanced program made up of homeopathic potencies of the preps the pipe works very well. I've found it to be the best method of applying the preps bar none. Nevertheless if I need some spot application, such as soaking my potato seed in 500 before planting, I still stir preps by hand. I also still insert preps in all compost piles. There are several reasons I greatly prefer to sell complete Cosmic Pipe kits. I want to ensure reliable construction that allows for periodic testing and repair, and I hope to keep sufficient track of people using pipes that a clearinghouse for information develops. But the biggest reason is I'd like to assure that people get pipes that work effectively and beneficially. For this reason it is very important to have a well-tuned, balanced reagent package. If you buy a kit, send us either an aerial photo with your boundaries marked or a land platt or deed, again with boundaries marked. We can then make a xerox copy for each well for use as a wittness to establish the farm or garden boundaries. This also allows us to map dowse for suggested locations for the pipe and for the exact potencies of the BD preps most appropriate for your location. This helps ensure optimum function for your pipe. We keep these photos on file should you need any additional reagents or consulting. Installation For economy in shipping and because PVC pipe is available almost everywhere, Cosmic Pipe kits ordinarily come without the central five foot piece of PVC pipe. All that is necessary is to assemble the kit is to purchase a five foot length of schedule 40 PVC pipe, hook up the wires with wire nuts (included in the kit) and glue the sections together. The pipe should be glued together so that the wells are in line with eath other, as when the pipe is installed these should point east. If possible you should check for an optimum location to put the pipe. You may use your intuition or perhaps dowse for it yourself or find a dowser that you can explain how the Cosmic Pipe works to and have him dowse for the location. It should not be under power lines, especially high voltage ones. It should not be under thick trees or up against houses, walls or steep banks. It should not be planted in locations where water stands, and, of course, it cannot be placed in roads or other places where it is an obstruction. If placed in a location where cattle or other large livestock can rub against it there should be a fence put around it to keep them from breaking it. Once a suitable location is found, dig a two foot deep hole with post hole diggers and place the pipe in the hole with the wells pointing east. In ordinary clay loam soil it should be buried up to about the middle of the collar on the bottom end of the pipe. Perhaps in very heavy clay it might be buried about an inch higher, while in very sandy soil it should go 2 or 3 inches below the collar. It is possible to fine tune the depth by (with the wells empty) getting back 35 feet or so and walking forward dowsing for the range of effectiveness of the pipe. Then with a little deeper or shallower hole the range can be marked off until the optimum depth is found. The soil should be packed firmly around the pipe and the reagent packages (which are labeled for each well) should be placed in their respective wells. Then dowsing should reveal the range of effectiveness to be far, far wider--in most cases covering the entire area within the boundaries of the photos in the wells. At this point the pipe is installed. Periodically one may check the wells with the ohm meter. With red (positive) lead on the red test terminal and black (negative) on the black terminal the read across the diode should show little if any resistance. Switching leads so the black lead is on the red test terminal and vice versa makes the current go through the 100k resistor, so the ohm reading should be 100k or close to that. If the ohm meter does not give these readings something is amiss, and the well or wells should be removed and repaired. This should be relatively easy since the well jars are glued in with silicone caulk which can be peeled away from the top of the jars and the jars loosened and pulled out. The circuit ordinarily is glued to the bottom of the well jar and can be removed from the circuit with a soldering iron and a new board soldered in. Barring that it may be cut out and a new circuit attached with wire nuts. Observation It would be naive to suppose the Cosmic Pipe is the absolute solution for all a farm's problems. It will get the BD preps out within the farm's borders and the farm will start functioning as an integrated organism. But there is a lot of fine tuning that one does by the way one farms. This requires keen observation. Observation is the basis of intelligence. The computer adage, garbage in garbage out (GIGO), applies as much as anywhere else to human intelligence. If we don't gather good information we have little hope of knowing what is, let alone what to do, if anything. There are all kinds of exercises for improving observational powers. Something I started doing at age twelve was looking for four-leaf clovers. Nowadays I see them at a glance. In fact, everybody sees four-leaf clovers, but only a few observe them. And there is this joker in the deck. Really it's not a joker, it is the deck. Christ taught, "What you seek you will find." And that's true, whether you seek it out of desire or aversion, you find what you seek. This principle is a little general, and not quite like seeking a BB gun for your birthday at age 8, but it is true. Another way of looking at it is the Heisenberg Indeterminancy Principle. Without going through the mathematics, it can be paraphrased as, "The very presence of the observer and his measuring instruments is a determining factor in the field of investigation." So even physicists are aware on one level or another (since the 30's) that we create our own realities on the basis of what we look for. Look for the unexpected without bias and you will find that. And in that direction one stands to discover inconceivable things. Really knowing what the Cosmic Pipe is doing requires open-minded observation. Who knows what will be discovered? Service and Consultations One of the things to watch out for is whether the pipe is still functional. The chances appear great that once it is installed it will work smoothly. But what if lightning strikes the pipe? That would fry its circuits. So keep the ohm meter (multi-range testor) handy and go out and check the pipe once in a while. It is possible that new well circuits will be needed. For sure you want to reasure yourself every now and then that the pipe is functional. Another thing. After treating an area, whether farm or garden, for a year or so, conditions will change. Using the pipe with the BD preps in it ensures change. An annual evaluation is a good idea. The fine-tuned balance of homeopathic potencies in the wells is likely to change. A new prep package likely is needed. Other concerns, which observations may bring to light, may require even more frequent inquiries of what to do. A serious failings of the Hieronymus era was no on-going consultation was available. Sorry. One pipe owner can't possibly know it all. Acting as a central clearinghouse of information we will discover much more that all can use. Anything can be used as a reagent in a Cosmic Pipe. Salt fertilizers can be used (I regret to say and advise against). In growing food we must think about the life therein. Some reagents, like the BD preps, are much more intensely inbued with living characteristics than others. This is true even of BD insect and weed peppers. So consulting about problems is advisable. Some Cautions Please keep in mind that (1) Some people have reported uncomfortable effects if their living quarters are too close to their Cosmic Pipes, as the Cosmic Pipe's etheric energy can be rather intense close to the pipe. (So intense that livestock often notice it right away and come rub against the pipe, which means erecting a fence around the pipe upon installation in pastures). (2) Your reagent package is a finely tuned set. Adding or subtracting reagents should be done with care. For example, if soil tests indicate lime should be added, don't just get a vial of lime and put it in the well. Tests have shown that one or another homeopathic dilution will be harmonious, certain others antipathetic. Usually raw reagents are too coarse and overwhelming and will upset the balance of the reagent package. Without care and understanding one can easily have unusual and undesirable experiences. If we made your Cosmic Pipe, your farm photo or land platt is on file here and we can make reagents tuned to your needs for a mere $10 apiece. So should you need mineral reagents, or a weed or insect pepper, send us a sample of whatever it is. This helps ensure your Cosmic Pipe does this job while continuing to work with all its reagents in balance as designed and intended. §§§§§§§§ Best wishes, ***** See it like it is, don't let it bother you. Inhale the delicate fragrance of whatever roses bloom. Appreciate the haunting near-freshness of those summer showers that too briefly settle the dust. Oh such watery broth! How it keeps us moving in this parched and salty desert; how it sustains our glimpses of sweet mountains welling up in our minds' eyes. Think not there's only gristle on this bone. Praise God there's so much water in the soup. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jun 20 13:38:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15793 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:38:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26265; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:26:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26092 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:24:17 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com (4532) by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id hMEHa21389 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:23:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:23:09 EDT Subject: Re: biodynamics To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1164 In a message dated 6/20/99 11:04:29 AM Mountain Daylight Time, uai@stc.net writes: << They have all the preps, prices, methods for you to use these things. As for cosmic pipes, that's me. I've been working with cosmic pipes for around 14 or 15 years now, and I've learned a lot. Done properly this is the most effective method I know of. If you have large acerages to cover with preps this is also by far the cheapest way to apply the preps. Here's some information about cosmic pipes: >> just out of curiosity, do you have a pipe for very large acreages? I first heard about the pipes in Secrets of the Soil, which i read just a few weeks ago. They mentioned a 2500 acre pipe. Do you have any larger ones than that? Also, if you use the pipes to broadcast the preps, do you need to buy only a minute amount of the preps, or do you have to buy a large amount to put into the pipe? Finally, if you can broadcast preps, would it also be possible to broadcast composts, etc? Or would those have to be manually applied? Thanks for any more help. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jun 20 16:33:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA17469 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 16:33:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11770; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 16:16:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11665 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 16:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.162]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990620201834.HDEV364447.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:18:34 +1200 Message-ID: <376D4C7F.353B@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:18:07 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: NZBDA AGM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1165 GAreth wrote > Apparently it was set to fit in with Mystery Creek Fielddays. BD was first; then Biogro set the date for the same reason. I > understand neither membership has complained- probably more a reflection of the state of NZ organics than the clash itself! > Gareth further to this. I discussed this with a BioGro rep, apparently BioGro had no notification or knowledge of the BD date. When it was suggested in their board meeting the BD representative, David Wright, said nothing about the clash. This BG person who suggested the meeting date said they would have changed it if they had known. From what I understand avoiding this sort of thing is why the BDA has an unelected representative present at board meetings. Maybe the BDA should appoint someone else? At the BG meeting there were several people who voiced they wished to attend both. It was not raised as part of the AGM though. We can only hope 'we' evolve in the next 12 months into a homogeneous community. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jun 20 18:04:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA18288 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 18:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA20290; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 17:52:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA20175 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 17:51:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-041.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.141]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11318 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:02:06 +1200 Message-ID: <000c01bebb64$e617dd80$8df631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: NZBDA AGM Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:36:01 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1166 Dear Glen, Interesting...did anyone go to the BD AGM? Gareth -----Original Message----- From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, 21 June 1999 08:33 AM Subject: NZBDA AGM >GAreth wrote > >> Apparently it was set to fit in with Mystery Creek Fielddays. BD was first; then Biogro set the date for the same reason. I >> understand neither membership has complained- probably more a reflection of the state of NZ organics than the clash itself! >> > >Gareth further to this. >I discussed this with a BioGro rep, apparently BioGro had no >notification or knowledge of the BD date. When it was suggested in their >board meeting the BD representative, David Wright, said nothing about >the clash. This BG person who suggested the meeting date said they would >have changed it if they had known. From what I understand avoiding this >sort of thing is why the BDA has an unelected representative present at >board meetings. Maybe the BDA should appoint someone else? > >At the BG meeting there were several people who voiced they wished to >attend both. It was not raised as part of the AGM though. We can only >hope 'we' evolve in the next 12 months into a homogeneous community. > >Glen A. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jun 20 18:30:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA18458 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 18:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA22349; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 18:14:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA22193 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 18:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d156.infoserve.net [199.175.157.156]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA06736 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 15:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000c01bebb6a$9081b660$9c9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: NEW BOOK ABOUT AG. COURSE/ "The Birth of a New Agriculture, Kobervitz 1924. Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 15:16:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01BEBB2F.D0853380" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1167 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BEBB2F.D0853380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear bdnower's, The book is a collection of personal accounts by those who were = present in Kobervitz in 1924, including members of the Keyserlingks. = Gives a good picture of the events that led up to the Ag. Course, of the = European situtation at the time, of anthr. at the time. THE BIRTH OF A NEW AGRICULTURE; KOBERWITZ 1924 includes '12 Days = with RS" by Countess Johanna Keyserlingk, edited/compiled by Adalbert = Graf von Keyserlingk, translated by the late John M. Wood (1913-1998), = proof read by Margarite Wood, Temple Lodge Publishing 1999, ISBN 1 = 902636 07 4. The translator, John Wood, went to the first Waldorf School in = Stutgart, where he met some of those mentioned in this book. Those = include members of the Keyserlingk family and Eliza von Moltke, who was = married to General von Moltke. Others who were present included the = parents of the late M. van Deventer, one of the founders of the Ita = Wegman Klinik in Arlesheim. Others accounts in this book include: Count alexander von Keyserlingk, = Count Carl von Keyserlingk, Countess Johanna Keyserlingk, Lutz Engel, = Karin Ruth-Hoffman, Luise von Zastrow, G=FCnther Sponholz. Included are accounts of RS's first and 2nd visits in 1922 (shortly = after founded the Christian Community), esoteric conversations, = encounters with RS 1919-1921, the actual Ag. Course of 1924., forewords = to the Easter 1949, 1952 editions. Michael ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BEBB2F.D0853380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear = bdnower's,
 
  The book is a = collection of=20 personal accounts by those who were present in Kobervitz in 1924, = including=20 members of the Keyserlingks.  Gives a good picture of the events = that led=20 up to the Ag. Course, of the European situtation at the time, of anthr. = at the=20 time.
 
THE BIRTH OF A NEW AGRICULTURE; KOBERWITZ=20 1924     includes '12 Days with RS" by Countess = Johanna=20 Keyserlingk, edited/compiled by Adalbert Graf von Keyserlingk, = translated by the=20 late John M. Wood (1913-1998), proof read by Margarite Wood, Temple = Lodge=20 Publishing 1999, ISBN 1 902636 07 4.
 
  The translator, John Wood, went to the first = Waldorf=20 School in Stutgart, where he met some of those mentioned in this = book. =20 Those include members of the Keyserlingk family and Eliza von Moltke, = who was=20 married to General von Moltke.  Others who were present included = the=20 parents of the late M. van Deventer, one of the founders of the Ita = Wegman=20 Klinik in Arlesheim.
  Others accounts in this book include: Count = alexander=20 von Keyserlingk, Count Carl von Keyserlingk, Countess Johanna = Keyserlingk, Lutz=20 Engel, Karin Ruth-Hoffman, Luise von Zastrow, Günther=20 Sponholz.
Included are accounts of RS's first and 2nd visits = in 1922=20 (shortly after founded the Christian Community), esoteric conversations, = encounters with RS 1919-1921, the actual Ag. Course of 1924., forewords = to the=20 Easter 1949, 1952 editions.
 
Michael
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BEBB2F.D0853380-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jun 20 21:28:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA20355 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 21:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08661; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 21:15:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08414 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 21:12:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts1-16.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.199.17]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA11379 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 18:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000701bebb83$3b7e5ec0$11c76cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: Subject: Re: Wendell Berry and Computers Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 18:08:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1168 Allan: You asked: <> It's called "Why I am not going to buy a computer," and I have an expanded version in the collection _What Are People For?_ North Point Press, 1990. ISBN 0-86547-437-0. It appeared first in the New England Review in 1987 and was reprinted in Harpers. It starts out, "Like almost everybody else, I am hooked to the energy corporations, which I do not admire. I hope to become less hooked to them. In my work, I try to be as little hooked to them as possible. As a farmer, I do almost all of my work with horses. As a writer I work with a pencil or a pen and a piece of paper." And continues, "I do not see that computers are bringing us one step nearer to anything that does matter to me: peace, economic justice, ecological health, political honesty, family and community stability, good work." The to-be-desired ends he lists, IMO, are somewhat furthered by some websites and some email lists. Neither email nor the Web was available to home computer users when Berry wrote the above...thus my question, whether he's changed his mind at all about computers. One of his primary points, however, remains pretty much the same: "How could I write conscientiously agains the rape of nature if I were, in the act of writing, implicated in the rape?" That is, dependence on electricity generated from stripmined coal, which is the norm in much of the U.S.. The essay is so germain to the issues that confront us all that I will undertake to scan it and send as a text file to anyone who asks for it via private email. Woody From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jun 20 22:27:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20947 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 22:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA13997; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 22:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scsinternet.com (penguin.scsinternet.com [216.129.11.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13642 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 22:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dial (d18.scsinternet.com [216.129.11.18]) by scsinternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA07509 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 22:12:42 -0400 Message-ID: <000a01bebb8b$00aae2c0$120b81d8@dial.scsinternet.com> From: "Karen Andersen" To: Subject: Re: Wendell Berry and Computers Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 22:08:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1169 -----Original Message----- From: Woody Wodraska To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, June 20, 1999 9:21 PM Subject: Re: Wendell Berry and Computers >Allan: > >You asked: <where that anti-computer essay appeared? >> > >It's called "Why I am not going to buy a computer," and I have an expanded >version in the collection _What Are People For?_ North Point Press, 1990. >ISBN 0-86547-437-0. It appeared first in the New England Review in 1987 and >was reprinted in Harpers. > >It starts out, "Like almost everybody else, I am hooked to the energy >corporations, which I do not admire. I hope to become less hooked to them. >In my work, I try to be as little hooked to them as possible. As a farmer, >I do almost all of my work with horses. As a writer I work with a pencil or >a pen and a piece of paper." And continues, "I do not see that computers >are bringing us one step nearer to anything that does matter to me: peace, >economic justice, ecological health, political honesty, family and community >stability, good work." > >The to-be-desired ends he lists, IMO, are somewhat furthered by some >websites and some email lists. Neither email nor the Web was available to >home computer users when Berry wrote the above...thus my question, whether >he's changed his mind at all about computers. > >One of his primary points, however, remains pretty much the same: >"How could I write conscientiously agains the rape of nature if I were, in >the act of writing, implicated in the rape?" That is, dependence on >electricity generated from stripmined coal, which is the norm in much of the >U.S.. > >The essay is so germain to the issues that confront us all that I will >undertake to scan it and send as a text file to anyone who asks for it via >private email. > >Woody Greetings! Yes I would be so pleased to have that essay e-mailed to me .Thankyou! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 21 02:06:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA23598 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 02:06:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA17167; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 01:48:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA16710 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 01:44:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.113]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990621054639.MZYD364447.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 17:46:39 +1200 Message-ID: <376DD1BE.49B1@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 17:46:38 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: BDANZ AGM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1170 > > Dear Glen, > Interesting...did anyone go to the BD AGM? > Gareth 60ish I understand. GA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 21 03:57:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA24263 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 03:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA26504; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 03:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA26418 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 03:42:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-70.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.70]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA17640 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 17:42:48 +1000 Message-ID: <009601bebbb9$76d70720$46431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re Koliskos "Agriculture For Tomorrow" Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 17:39:53 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008F_01BEBC0D.11B4A240" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1171 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01BEBC0D.11B4A240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear BDNOW List, Does anyone know if Agriculture for Tomorrow (Kolisko) is available ? = It has been out of print for a few years now, we have been told, and I = was wondering if anyone has heard of a reprint, or do we have to get = organised to arrange one?=20 Many thanks, Cheryl Kemp Education & Advisory Coordinator Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322=20 ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01BEBC0D.11B4A240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear BDNOW List,
Does anyone know if Agriculture for = Tomorrow=20 (Kolisko) is available ?  It has been out of print for a few years = now, we=20 have been told, and I was wondering if anyone has heard of a reprint, or = do we=20 have to get organised to arrange one?
Many thanks,
Cheryl Kemp
Education & = Advisory=20 Coordinator
Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc.
of Australia=20 Inc.
P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office)
627 Tyringham Rd, = Dorrigo Nth.=20 2453 (Home)
Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322=20
------=_NextPart_000_008F_01BEBC0D.11B4A240-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 21 13:50:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA02442 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:50:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01517; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01293 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:31:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 18431 invoked from network); 21 Jun 1999 17:32:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.36.18) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 21 Jun 1999 17:32:16 -0000 Message-ID: <061f01bebc0b$3b884100$7721d2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: Wendell Berry and Computers Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:26:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1172 I guess the question devolves into whether to support the evil pulp and paper companies who make the paper, and whoever makes the pen/pencil, with whatever evil unsustainable stuff that implies, or go with computers, electrons and when needed the printers and evil paper they imply... Dunno how Wendell weighs this one, but certainly the pulp and paper companies are not necessarily kinder and gentler than the 'lectric companies and the computer manufacturers, it seems to me.... Frank---whilst living in Trois Rivieres (Three Rivers, Quebec, which is actually only one river, the Saint-Maurice, which deltas into the St. Lawrence in three streams, whence the name) noted that the river was substantially polluted by all the bark and stuff from the logs they floated downstream...and the Kruger plant really smells bad, who knows what it is doing to the ethers, eh? -----Original Message----- From: Woody Wodraska To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, June 20, 1999 9:16 PM Subject: Re: Wendell Berry and Computers >Allan: > >You asked: <where that anti-computer essay appeared? >> > >It's called "Why I am not going to buy a computer," and I have an expanded >version in the collection _What Are People For?_ North Point Press, 1990. >ISBN 0-86547-437-0. It appeared first in the New England Review in 1987 and >was reprinted in Harpers. > >It starts out, "Like almost everybody else, I am hooked to the energy >corporations, which I do not admire. I hope to become less hooked to them. >In my work, I try to be as little hooked to them as possible. As a farmer, >I do almost all of my work with horses. As a writer I work with a pencil or >a pen and a piece of paper." And continues, "I do not see that computers >are bringing us one step nearer to anything that does matter to me: peace, >economic justice, ecological health, political honesty, family and community >stability, good work." > >The to-be-desired ends he lists, IMO, are somewhat furthered by some >websites and some email lists. Neither email nor the Web was available to >home computer users when Berry wrote the above...thus my question, whether >he's changed his mind at all about computers. > >One of his primary points, however, remains pretty much the same: >"How could I write conscientiously agains the rape of nature if I were, in >the act of writing, implicated in the rape?" That is, dependence on >electricity generated from stripmined coal, which is the norm in much of the >U.S.. > >The essay is so germain to the issues that confront us all that I will >undertake to scan it and send as a text file to anyone who asks for it via >private email. > >Woody > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 21 14:42:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA03916 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:42:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05057; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:26:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05017 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:25:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts1-3.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.199.4]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA31563 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001201bebc13$88f4d5e0$04c76cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <000a01bebb8b$00aae2c0$120b81d8@dial.scsinternet.com> Subject: Re: Wendell Berry and Computers Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:20:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1173 Here you are! WHY I AM NOT GOING TO BUY A COMPUTER Like almost everybody else, I am hooked to the energy corporations, which I do not admire. I hope to become less hooked to them. In my work, I try to be as little hooked to them as possible. As a farmer, I do almost all of my work with horses. As a writer, I work with a pencil or a pen and a piece of paper. My wife types my work on a Royal standard typewriter bought new in 1956 and as good now as it was then. As she types, she sees things that are wrong and marks them with small checks in the margins. She is my best critic because she is the one most familiar with my habitual errors and weaknesses. She also understands, sometimes better than I do, what ought to be said. We have, I think, a literary cottage industry that works well and pleasantly. I do not see anything wrong with it. A number of people, by now, have told me that I could greatly improve things by buying a computer. My answer is that I am not going to do it. I have several reasons, and they are good ones. The first is the one I mentioned at the beginning. I would hate to think that my work as a writer could not be done without a direct dependence on strip-mined coal. How could I write conscientiously against the rape of nature if I were, in the act of writing, implicated in the rape? For the same reason, it matters to me that my writing is done in the daytime, without electric light. I do not admire the computer manufacturers a great deal more than I admire the energy industries. I have seen their advertisements, attempting to seduce struggling or failing farmers into the belief that they can solve their problems by buying yet another piece of expensive equipment. I am familiar with their propaganda campaigns that have put computers into public schools in need of books. That computers are expected to become as common as TV sets in "the future" does not impress me or matter to me. I do not own a TV set. I do not see that computers are bringing us one step nearer to anything that does matter to me: peace, economic justice, ecological health, political honesty, family and community stability, good work. What would a computer cost me? More money, for one thing, than I can afford, and more than I wish to pay to people whom I do not admire. But the cost would not be just monetary. It is well understood that technological innovation always requires the discarding of the "old model"--the "old model" in this case being not just our old Royal standard, but my wife, my critic, my closest reader, my fellow worker. Thus (and I think this is typical of present-day technological innovation), what would be superseded would be not only something, but somebody. In order to be technologically up-to-date as a writer, I would have to sacrifice an association that I am dependent upon and that I treasure. My final and perhaps my best reason for not owning a computer is that I do not wish to fool myself. I disbelieve, and therefore strongly resent, the assertion that I or anybody else could write better or more easily with a computer than with a pencil. I do not see why I should not be as scientific about this as the next fellow: when somebody has used a computer to write work that is demonstrably better than Dante's, and when this better is demonstrably attributable to the use of a computer, then I will speak of computers with a more respectful tone of voice, though I still will not buy one.To make myself as plain as I can, I should give my standards for technological innovation in my own work. They are as follows: 1. The new tool should be cheaper than the one it replaces. 2. It should be at least as small in scale as the one it replaces. 3. It should do work that Is clearly and demonstrably better than the one it replaces. 4. It should use less energy than the one it replaces. 5. If possible, it should use some form of solar energy such as that of the body. 6. It should be repairable by a person of ordinary intelligence, provided that he or she has the necessary tools. 7. It should be purchasable and repairable as near to home as possible. 8. It should come from a small, privately owned shop or store that will take it back for maintenance and repair. 9. It should not replace or disrupt anything good that already exists, and this includes family and community relationships. 1987 After the foregoing essay, first published in the New England Review and Bread Loaf Qiiarterly, was reprinted in Harper's, the Harper's editors published the following letters in response and permitted me a reply. W. B. LETTERS Wendell Berrv provides writers enslaved by the computer with a handy alternative: Wife--a low-tech energy-saving device. Drop a pile of handwritten notes on Wife and you get back a finished manuscript, edited while it was typed. What computer can do that? Wife meets all of Berry's uncompromising standards for technological innovation: she's cheap, repairable near home, and good for the family structure. Best of all, Wife is politically correct because she breaks a writer's "direct dependence on strip-mined coal." History teaches us that Wife can also be used to beat rugs and wash clothes by hand, thus eliminating the need for the vacuum cleaner and washing machine, two more nasty machines that threaten the act of writing. Gordon Inkeles Miranda, Calif. I have no quarrel with Berry because he prefers to write with pencil and paper; that is his choice. But he implies that I and others are somehow impure because we choose to write on a computer. I do not admire the energy corporations, either. Their shortcoming is not that they produce electricity but how they go about it. They are poorly managed because they are blind to long-term consequences. To solve this problem, wouldn't it make more sense to correct the precise error they are making rather than simply ignore their product? I would be happy to join Berry in a protest against stripmining, but l intend to keep plugging the computer into the wall with a clear conscience. James Rhoads Battle Creek, Mich. I enjoyed reading Berry's declaration of intent never to buy a personal computer in the same way that I enjoy reading about the belief systems of unfamiliar tribal cultures. I tried to I imagine a tool that would meet Berry's criteria for superiority to his old manual typewriter. The clear winner is the quill pen. It is cheaper, smaller, more energy-efficient, human-powered, easily repaired, and non-disruptive of existing relationships. Berry also requires that this tool must be "clearly and demonstrably better" than the one it replaces. But surely we all recognize by now that "better" is in the mind of the beholder, To the quill pen aficionado, the benefits obtained from elegant calligraphy might well outweigh all others. I have no particular desire to see Berry use a word processor; if he doesn't like computers that's fine with me. However, I do object to his portrayal of this reluctance as a moral virtue. Many of us have found that computers can be an invaluable tool in the fight to protect our environment. In addition to helping me write, my personal computer gives me access to up-to-the-minute reports on the workings of the EPA and the nuclear industry. I participate in electronic bulletin boards on which environmental activists discuss strategy and warn each other about urgent legislative issues. Perhaps Berry feels that the Sierra Club should eschew modern printing technology, which is highly wasteful of energy, in favor of having its members hand-copy the club's magazines and other mailings each month? Nathaniel S. Borenstein Pittsburgh, Pa. The value of a computer to a writer is that it is a tool not for generating ideas but for typing and editing words. It is cheaper than a secretary (or a wife!) and arguably more fuel efficient. And it enables spouses who are not inclined to provide free labor more time to concentrate on their own work. We should support alternatives both to coal-generated electricity and to IBM-style technocracy. But I am reluctant to entertain alternatives that presuppose the traditional subservience of one class to another. Let the PCs come and the wives and servants go seek more meaningful work. Toby Koosman Knoxville, Tenn. Berry asks how he could write conscientiously against the rape of nature if in the act of writing on a computer he was implicated in the rape. I find it ironic that a writer who sees the underlying connectedness of things would allow his diatribe against computers to be published in a magazine that carries ads for the National Rural Electric Cooperative Association, Marlboro, Phillips Petroleum, McDonnell Douglas, and yes, even Smith-Corona. If Berry rests comfortably at night, be must be using sleeping pills. Bradley C. Jobnson Grand Forks, N.D. WENDELL BERRY REPLIES: The foregoing letters surprised me with the intensity of the feelings they expressed. According to the writers' testimony there Is nothing wrong with their computers; they are utterly satisfied with them and all that they stand for. My correspondents are certain that I am wrong and that I am, moreover, on the losing side, a side already relegated to the dustbin of history. And yet they grow huffy and condescending over my tiny dissent. What are they so anxious about? I can only conclude that I have scratched the skin of a technological fundamentalism that, like other fundamentalisms, wishes to monopolize a whole society and, therefore, cannot tolerate the smallest difference of opinion. At the slightest hint of a threat to their complacency, they repeat, like a chorus of toads, the notes sounded by their leaders in industry. The past was gloomy, drudgery-ridden, servile, meaningless, and slow. The present, thanks only to purchasable products, is meaningful, bright, lively, centralized, and fast. The future, thanks only to more purchasable products, is going to be even better. Thus consumers become salesmen, and the world is made safer for corporations. I am also surprised by the meanness with which two of these writers refer to my wife. In order to imply that I am a tyrant, they suggest by both direct statement and innuendo that she is subservient, characterless, and stupid--a mere "device" easily forced to provide meaningless "free labor." I understand that it is impossible to make an adequate public defense of one's private life, and so I will only point out that there are a number of kinder possibilities that my critics have disdained to imagine: that my wife may do this work because she wants to and likes to; that she may find some use and some meaning in it; that she may not work for nothing. These gentlemen obviously think themselves feminists of the most correct and principled sort, and yet they do not hesitate to stereotype and insult, on the basis of one fact, a woman they do not know. They are audacious and irresponsible gossips. In his letter, Bradley C. Johnson rushes past the possibility of sense in what I said in my essay by implying that I am or ought to be a fanatic. That I am a person of this century and am implicated in many practices that I regret is fully acknowledged at the beginning of my essay. I did not say that I proposed to end forthwith all my involvement in harmful technology, for I do not know how to do that. I said merely that I want to limit such involvement, and to a certain extent I do know how to do that. If some technology does damage to the world--as two of the above letters seem to agree that it does--then why is it not reasonable, and indeed moral, to try to limit one's use of that technology? Of course, I think that I am right to do this. I would not think so, obviously, if I agreed with Nathaniel S. Borenstein that "'better' is in the mind of the beholder." But if he truly believes this, I do not see why he bothers with his personal computer's "up-to-the-minute reports on the workings of the EPA and the nuclear industry" or why he wishes to be warned about "urgent legislative issues." According to his system, the "better" in a bureaucratic, industrial, or legislative mind is as good as the 'better" in his. His mind apparently is being subverted by an objective standard of some sort, and he had better look out. Borenstein does not say what he does after his computer has drummed him awake. I assume from his letter that he must send donations to conservation organizations and letters to officials. Like James Rhoads, at any rate, he has a clear conscience. But this is what is wrong with the conservation movement. It has a clear conscience. The guilty are always other people, and the wrong is always somewhere else. That is why Borenste'n finds his electronic bulletin board" so handy. To the conservation movement, it is only production that causes environmental degradation, the consumption that supports the production is rarely acknowledged to be at fault. The ideal of the run-of-the-mill conservationist is to impose restraints upon production without limiting consumption or burdening the consciences of consumers. But virtually ail of our consumption now is extravagant, and virtually all of it consumes the world. It is not beside the point that more electrical power comes from strip-mined coal. The history of the exploitation of the Appalachian coal fields is long, and it is available to readers. I do not see how anyone can read it and plug in any appliance with a clear conscience. If Rhoads can do so, that does not mean that his conscience is clear; it means that his conscience is not working. To the extent that we consume, in our present circumstances, we are guilty. To the extent that we guilty consumers are conservationists, we are absurd. But what can we do? Must we go on writing letters to politicians and donating to conservation organizations until the majority of our fellow citizens agree with us? Or can we do something directly to solve our share of the problem? I am a conservationist. I believe wholeheartedly in putting pressure on the politicians and in maintaining the conservation organizations. But I wrote my little essay partly in distrust of centralization. I don't think that the government and the conservation organizations alone will ever make us a conserving society. Why do I need a centralized computer system to alert me to environmental crises? That I live every hour of every day in an environmental crisis I know from all my senses. Why then is not my first duty to reduce, so far as I can, my own consumption? Finally, it seems to me that none of my correspondents recognizes the innovativeness of my essay. If the use of a computer is a new idea, then a newer Idea is not to use one. ----- Original Message ----- From: Karen Andersen To: Sent: Sunday, June 20, 1999 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Wendell Berry and Computers > > -----Original Message----- > From: Woody Wodraska > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Sunday, June 20, 1999 9:21 PM > Subject: Re: Wendell Berry and Computers > > > >Allan: > > > >You asked: < >where that anti-computer essay appeared? >> > > > >It's called "Why I am not going to buy a computer," and I have an expanded > >version in the collection _What Are People For?_ North Point Press, 1990. > >ISBN 0-86547-437-0. It appeared first in the New England Review in 1987 > and > >was reprinted in Harpers. > > > >It starts out, "Like almost everybody else, I am hooked to the energy > >corporations, which I do not admire. I hope to become less hooked to them. > >In my work, I try to be as little hooked to them as possible. As a farmer, > >I do almost all of my work with horses. As a writer I work with a pencil > or > >a pen and a piece of paper." And continues, "I do not see that computers > >are bringing us one step nearer to anything that does matter to me: peace, > >economic justice, ecological health, political honesty, family and > community > >stability, good work." > > > >The to-be-desired ends he lists, IMO, are somewhat furthered by some > >websites and some email lists. Neither email nor the Web was available to > >home computer users when Berry wrote the above...thus my question, whether > >he's changed his mind at all about computers. > > > >One of his primary points, however, remains pretty much the same: > >"How could I write conscientiously agains the rape of nature if I were, in > >the act of writing, implicated in the rape?" That is, dependence on > >electricity generated from stripmined coal, which is the norm in much of > the > >U.S.. > > > >The essay is so germain to the issues that confront us all that I will > >undertake to scan it and send as a text file to anyone who asks for it via > >private email. > > > >Woody > Greetings! Yes I would be so pleased to have that essay e-mailed to me > .Thankyou! > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 21 15:01:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04511 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:01:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06394; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:46:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06135 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:43:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.181.72] ("port 2048"@[148.233.181.72]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FDO00JGXY5TXM@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:01:09 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:08:06 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: off: suttle energies water treatment In-reply-to: <000701bebb83$3b7e5ec0$11c76cce@netacc.net> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1174 Hi: Not long ago someone posted info about a device (the size of a pen) that purified water with suttle energies. Can someone send me that info again please ?. I would also appreciate any other info on this subject (I already have Hugh's posting on the Sosei water) and about "Alotropia" (what's the word in English ?) Many Thanks Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 21 16:00:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA06777 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11202; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:42:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11086 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip015.computer.net [140.186.252.15]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA07131; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:41:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:43:56 -0400 To: igg@igg.com, bdnow@envirolink.org, Kbrew66933@aol.com, betsyc@aisva.net, rmdsf%ix.netcom.com.@webcity, roxbury@mhonline.net, blue@pipeline.com, hennelly@lucent.com, rhennelly@worldnet.att.net, jpuryear@aa.net, madajo@mbox301.swipnet.se, clang@onmoney.com, sirus123@earthlink.net, marq@mwt.net, tawndor@bellatlantic.net, milstein@pipeline.com, "Ed Mulrean, Ph.D." , Nate@kootenay.com, BJNORTHROP@aol.com, psdetray@cyberhighway.net, ap34@is6.nyu.edu, mroboz@infoserve.net, aurora@kootenay.com, stella@mcn.org, wcstearn@aisva.net, "Ferdinand the Farmer" , Woody@biz2.dwave.net, amchila@aol.com, linkink@interport.net, demeter@baldcom.net Subject: A happy & Blessed Summer Solstice to you all Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1175 Dear Friends, I just wanted to take a moment to wish you all a Blessed & Happy Summer Solstice today as we celebrate this day of light, the longest day of the year. Let this be a day where your dreams and hopes can become manifest. Let this day be one where you can aspire to new dreams as the light next begins to wane, as we work hard to heal the earth and our hearts. Let this season be a joyous & healing one to you all! I have been especially blessed this year to be able to have a garden in the earth instead of a virtual garden. Thank you all for your guidance, prayers, good wishes and great inspiration toward that end as I now apprentice to be a steward to the earth. Blessings & Love, Jane Sherry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 21 23:47:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA16881 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 23:47:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08810; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 23:30:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08767 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 23:29:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.134.143] (max7-37.stc.net [208.210.134.37]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA21745 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 23:30:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <000701bebb83$3b7e5ec0$11c76cce@netacc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 20:47:00 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: off: suttle energies water treatment Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1176 >Hi: > >Not long ago someone posted info about a device (the size of a pen) that >purified water with suttle energies. Can someone send me that info again >please ?. > >I would also appreciate any other info on this subject (I already have >Hugh's posting on the Sosei water) and about "Alotropia" (what's the word >in English ?) > >Many Thanks > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Dear Guillermo, I'll be posting more on Sosei Water as soon as I can find time to write it up. First I want to write up my tour of Sosei installations (cleaning plant, private home, school, beauty parlor, clinic) in Japan. These were all very interesting. Finally I hope to give the details of my experience living with Sosei Water and using it for everything from drinking, bathing, washing clothes, dishes, floors,pots and pans, making homeopathic medicines, watering plant sets, stirring BD preps. This past week a Sosei Water maker (machine) was donated and installed here at the Institute. It has been a real experience giving up all soaps, detergents, shampoos, etc. and washing everything from burned pots and pans to hands covered with grease and petroleum (after working on machinery) with nothing but water. Imagine taking the gummed up roasting pan of a big pork roast and washing it in nothing but water--such low surface tension--and getting it sparkling clean. Or imagine dancing to jazz music following a long day's farm work--such bounce!--after drinking this reduced (anionic) water day after day. Certainly this is no ordinary water treatment. I must say, though, it is interesting getting over life-long habits. I keep thinking of using soaps and detergents to wash away heavy grease and I have to remind myself I don't HAVE any of these in the house any more, and if I did I wouldn't want to risk using them with water which has such low surface tension. But if I'm coated with grease I still THINK I want detergents. Then I think how my condition of itchy, flaky scalp has nearly gone away in less than a week of shampooing in nothing but Sosei water. So there's a story here as soon as I get the time to tell it. Best, Hugh ***** See it like it is, don't let it bother you. Inhale the delicate fragrance of whatever roses bloom. Appreciate the haunting near-freshness of those summer showers that too briefly settle the dust. Oh such watery broth! How it keeps us moving in this parched and salty desert; how it sustains our glimpses of sweet mountains welling up in our minds' eyes. Think not there's only gristle on this bone. Praise God there's so much water in the soup. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 22 11:18:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24463 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04235; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:59:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04018 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:56:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.97]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990622145917.OJEJ404633.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 02:59:17 +1200 Message-ID: <376FA4A7.FC6@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 02:58:48 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Astrality questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1177 Sorry this has taken a while. Q1) I was not asking what a poison does to us, but what is "Astrality working too strongly in a plant". Based on Hugh's post, I can suspect now that is the intermediation of Ca and Mg in the uptake of N, what do you think ?. GA "Astrality working too strongly in a Plant" I am not completely sure of your questions intent? We can see an early flowering, a reversal of transpiration, high levels of leaf indentation, indigestibility of plants as food etc as images of too strong an Astrality. While Calcium does help to draw nitrogen to itself it is not exclusively greedy for nitrogen. IU it sucks all sorts of elements to itself. Nitrogen is just the particularly useful element we see in action. I use mineral calcium to counteract overly strong Astral states usually, especially in the digestive system. Nitrogen will acidify however not as violently as hydrogen.. In my experience Calcium supports the Physical/Etheric organism to cope with overly active Astrality. It stabilises or anchors this flighty fellow while providing a platform for the etheric to work more strongly. Q2) Thanks James: your quote provides further reference to the relationship of Astrality and the nature of plants, but I am still wondering why is it that the poisonous plants take up Astrality into the actual substance (physical ?) and the food bearing plants directs it to the fruit and seed ?. GA Exactly why they do it is anyone guess, other than of course the obvious protection mechanisms etc. I think there is a part of your question that looks at HOW the nitrogen is taken up. We of course have plants which are neither food bearing or poisonous. This is part of the reason I believe it is important to be so finicky about the use of terms to describe the different ways the Astrality works. Using the terms we have been provided with we can say the terrestrial Silica processes act as the carrier or partner of the Astrality and light in working upon the plant to provide the maturity necessary for food quality to develop and this is not always related to N I would imagine. For protein to be developed instead of poison I mentioned earlier that it would appear the etheric body needed to be more active and that the bound light (& chemical ) ether would need to be active within the plant to make the difference. Without this etheric cushion poisons are formed. Astrality in Fruit and seed we can say is the archetypal place for it to manifest. It can however be drawn into other regions of the plant dependant on species etc. Eg Labiates bring the Astrality down into the leaf and stem in peppermint sage etc. Q3) Is it safe to assume that in the case of leaf, root, tuber or stem food vegetables, the plant also directs the Astrality to this parts and not to others ?. GA You are right in your overall picture however, I think it is probably more correct to be talking of the life ether in many of these cases, with it being the internalised carrier of the Astrality. This ‘internalised astral activity’ within the etheric body of the plant would be what is active in ‘making’ the food parts of plants, and able to be moved about within the plant to create new vegetables and so on. ( I am not an ‘ethers specialist’ so I will be interested in others perception of these processes) The Astrality in most food plants I see as being a more general influence and more active in the nutritive quality and keeping of the substance produced. In earlier discussions I/we were discussing the development of tissue as a secondary Moon, terrestrial calcium, physical process, the development of mass or size as a Cosmic Calcium/etheric process, while the maturity of that mass came from the terrestrial silica astral processes. This is the difference between chemical and biodynamic food. The chemical food has the form of a good vegetable however the etheric body and Astrality can not work together in a manner or sophistication that allows for the nutritive value to be created. This could explain why some parts of a same plant are edible and others are poisonous (ie. English rhubarb where leaves and roots are edible, but leave's blades and base stalks are poisonous due to the presence of oxalic acid). 1) What happens in the case where a plant is poisonous to one animal and not another? Along those lines, what happens when one person is "poisoned" by a plant (say, what is called a "severe allergy") whereas others are unaffected? GA In the case of the poisonous plant to one animal or other, it indicates that animal has a particular relationship to the Astrality that suggests its etheric body is strong enough to over come the Astrality and process those alkaloids. I can imagine it is like finishing off the ripening process in a similar way we need to cook much of our food to finish ripening it. With people and allergies, I find the relationship between the etheric and Astral body is significant. Generally the etheric body is weakened the astral body too strong anyway. The extra Astrality just tips the balance. Pulling the Astral off and increasing the strength of the etheric usually solves most allergic situations. It is all about the etheric bodies ability to overcome the Astrality. Just like in a compost heap really. Oxygen is the key. How can we best turn the NH4 into NO3? It appears to be very similar processes in land, plant and animal. 2) What is the etheric/astral connection in the case of organisms that are somewhere between plant and animal? I can think of the examples of sea sponges and coral. GA What I get from the Kolisko piece I posted is that the Astral body incarnates in stages through the evolution of the animal kingdom. Each stage adds another refinement to the development of organs and consciousness. These organisms are at the beginning. 3) do we regard all animals - from the simplest to the most complex, excluding only humans - as the same ? Tony N-S. GA Well yes and no. The same principle is active, while the manifestations just becomes more complex. There is a process of astral incarnation taking place. If we can run animal evolution as a movie then what we are seeing is the incarnation of the Astrality followed by influences of their collective ego. 4) Do you know to what extent Kolisko was writing as an anthroposophist, rather than in reference to conventional biology? Tony N-S. GA He was a zoologist and botanist etc, teaching professionally, however he was also an intimate of Steiner and I believe one of the more imaginative students. I believe he perceived strong patternings behind nature and his work has increased my belief in the ‘Astrological’ basis of Biodynamics. See "Twelve groups of animals" for the astrological 3x4 pattern continually expressed in animal evolution. RS had outlined the 12 fold division of the animal kingdom in relationship to the zodiac - interestingly using a reverse zodiac starting at cancer and going around to Leo. A zodiac I have found relates also to the human spiritual journey. Kolisko just attempted to enlarge on Steiners indications. He did not seem to talk a lot about the spiritual bodies, as many Anthroposophists don’t, when talking to a ‘normal’ audience. (Sadly this habit has extended so far in NZ it has been outlawed from the BDA magazine, at least for me to talk about them anyway.) So with the bits of Kolisko I have read these things need to be inferred a little. cheers GA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 22 11:57:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25376 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:57:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07173; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:41:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06923 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:38:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.200.208]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:39:13 +0100 Message-ID: <376FAEF8.7C85@cwcom.net> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:42:48 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: GM food news Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1178 Just in case Michael doesn't in due course provide a more detailed posting, I thought I'd mention an item I caught on British TV news. First, most of the major European food processors/retailers have formed a joint organisation to establish sources of non-genetically modified crops (apparently Brazil, for example, produces large quantities of non-GM soya). A spokesman for Sainsbury's (major British supermarket chain) said that, as their customers overwhelmingly demand non-GM food, they will be making every effort to provide it. It seems that they will still stock products made from GM crops, but promise to label every item clearly, so that the customer can make an informed choice. The presenter commented that US farmers will soon feel the commercial pressure to switch from GM to conventional crop varieties (wishful thinking ?). Second, one major British processor of basic raw materials for the food industry is setting up a second production line for soya lecithin which will use exclusively non-GM soya; the product will be marketed with a logo which they hope other producers will also adopt for GM-free materials. You may already know that one of the British field-scale trials of GM rape has been aborted. The farmer, who previously appeared on TV giving strong support to GM crops, also grows organic crops (strange man !) and apparently the farm is managed by trustees on behalf of his children. They ordered the developing plants to be sprayed with a herbicide to which they are not resistant (strange organic farming !) for fear that the 'buffer zone' was insufficient, the other crops would be contaminated and the farm would lose its organic certification. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 22 13:03:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26880 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:03:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13015; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 12:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12877 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 12:43:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.181.97] ("port 2048"@[148.233.181.97]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FDQ00HNAOCXKO@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:24:46 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:30:26 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: off: suttle energies water treatment In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <000701bebb83$3b7e5ec0$11c76cce@netacc.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA12880 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1179 >Dear Guillermo, > >I'll be posting more on Sosei Water as soon as I can find time to write it >up. First I want to write up my tour of Sosei installations (cleaning >plant, private home, school, beauty parlor, clinic) in Japan. These were >all very interesting. Finally I hope to give the details of my experience >living with Sosei Water and using it for everything from drinking, bathing, >washing clothes, dishes, floors,pots and pans, making homeopathic >medicines, watering plant sets, stirring BD preps. > >This past week a Sosei Water maker (machine) was donated and installed here >at the Institute. It has been a real experience giving up all soaps, >detergents, shampoos, etc. and washing everything from burned pots and pans >to hands covered with grease and petroleum (after working on machinery) >with nothing but water. Imagine taking the gummed up roasting pan of a big >pork roast and washing it in nothing but water--such low surface >tension--and getting it sparkling clean. Or imagine dancing to jazz music >following a long day's farm work--such bounce!--after drinking this reduced >(anionic) water day after day. Certainly this is no ordinary water >treatment. > >I must say, though, it is interesting getting over life-long habits. I keep >thinking of using soaps and detergents to wash away heavy grease and I have >to remind myself I don't HAVE any of these in the house any more, and if I >did I wouldn't want to risk using them with water which has such low >surface tension. But if I'm coated with grease I still THINK I want >detergents. Then I think how my condition of itchy, flaky scalp has nearly >gone away in less than a week of shampooing in nothing but Sosei water. So >there's a story here as soon as I get the time to tell it. > >Best, >Hugh > Thanks Hugh: I hope you get the needed time soon so that you can share with us in detail your experiences in this fascinating subject. I will take advantage of the opportunity to reiterat my question about a web site or further info on the "writing pen" like device that one can introduce in a glass of water to purify it. I even remember a distributor for such a device, but I can not locate any info now. Could you or someone else in the list help me ? Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 22 13:37:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27534 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:37:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15887; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15716 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:18:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d142.infoserve.net [199.175.157.142]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA05143 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001401bebcd3$c1776020$8e9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: OFF / GEN6-20 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:21:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1180 Dear Tony, Here is the message you were waiting for!! M. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Monday, June 21, 1999 9:01 AM Subject: GEN6-20 >next article posted by NATURAL LAW PARTY WESSEX > >UK's Farming News 18 June 1999 > >GM TRIALS WARNING > >By FN reporters > >GM TRIAL work is in danger of grinding to a halt in the UK as both biotech >companies and those involved in the Government's own farm-scale evaluation >programme find it increasingly difficult to persuade farmers to allow their >land to be used for the controversial crops. > >Fear of being exposed to costly legal damage claims from neighbouring >farmers, as well as possible long-term environmental problems, are turning >out to be as significant in the decision-making process as concern over >direct action by anti-GM protesters. > >Meanwhile, 'GM-free zones' are on the horizon. > >One insurance expert admitted that with GM crops being such a grey area, >farmers choosing to grow them were "virtually on their own". > >Underwriting manager at the NFU Mutual, Sid Gibson, confirmed to FARMING >NEWS that the principles surrounding GM crops were not clear-cut and the >Mutual was trying to formulate its policy. "The big unknown is where there >is a risk of cross-contamination," he said. "Farmers considering growing GM >crops should get their legal advisers to look at the contract very >carefully. Responsibility should he with the biotech company or institution >carrying out the trials." > >...... > >THE DAILY TELEGRAPH (LONDON) June 16, 1999, >- Hazlewood pledges to clear out GM foods >By By Dan Roberts > >HAZLEWOOD Foods, which supplies own-label chilled meals to supermarkets, >yesterday promised to eliminate all genetically modified (GM) ingredients >from its products by the end of this financial year. > > Chief executive John Simons said the group had taken significant steps to >reduce potential GM content, but admitted the move was largely for >commercial, rather than ethical, reasons. This follows similar pledges by >other large producers such as Marks & Spencer supplier Northern Foods who >are responding to growing consumer fears about the long-term >environmental and health impacts of genetic modification. > >....... > >Thanks to Wainwright Churchill for posting this; > > The Observer 20-6-99 GM food 'threatens the planet' > >Andy McSmith and Denis Staunton, Cologne and Antony Barnett >Sunday June 20, 1999 > >The world's most powerful leaders yesterday labelled genetically modified >food, alongside Aids and the millennium bug, as one of the greatest >threats facing the planet. > >In a significant blow to Tony Blair and President Bill Clinton, both men >were bounced into agreeing a new global inquiry into the safety of GM >foods at the G8 summit in Cologne. Blair and the US President have been >two of the strongest supporters of the GM industry. > >Environmentalists welcomed the development as 'significant', but they >warned that the public would not be 'duped by international committees >interested in rubber-stamping products of biotechnology firms'. > >Tony Juniper, the director of Friends of the Earth, said: 'It shows just >how far the thinking in the US and British Governments is from those in >other leading nations. If this G8 initiative is to have any credibility, >there must now be a five-year freeze on all GM food used commercially.' > >Monsanto, the US firm behind GM crops, also welcomed the move, saying it >hoped it would speed up international approval of their products. >Washington and Brussels are at loggerheads over GM technology, with the US >threatening an all-out trade war if Europe tries to ban GM food. > >Yesterday the German Chancellor, Gerhard Schroder - supporting an >initiative of French President Jacques Chirac - used his position as head >of the host nation to put GM foods on the agenda of the G8 summit. The >matter was included under 'global threats' along with Aids and the >millennium bug. This Franco-German alliance symbolises the growing >opposition on the Continent to the new technology. > >Two technical committees of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and >Development will now begin to collate information from around the world to >ensure that every country has access to the best research on the effects of >genetic modification. Afterwards British officials defended the decision, >saying that Britain also believes that 'food standards and food safety are >vital to communities'. > >Ministers argue they will not give permission for commercial release of >such crops until the trial results show these are safe. But environmental >campaigners still believe that potential risks to human health have not >been properly evaluated and are concerned that GM seeds can >cross-pollinate into the countryside, destroying wild habitats. > >Opposition to genetically modified food is also beginning to grow in the >US, where some 70 million acres of modified soya beans, tomatos, wheat and >cotton are now grown across the country. > >This unexpected setback at the G8 summit took some of the shine off a >personal success for Tony Blair, who persuaded the other G8 leaders to >agree measures to improve teacher training worldwide. > >It was the first time that G8 had included education as a topic at any of >their summits. > > " Denis Staunton is Berlin Correspondent of The Irish Times > >..... > >Independent on Sunday 20/6/99 UK > >*World's top sweetener is made with GM bacteria* > >The most widely used sweetener in the world, found in fizzy drinks and >sweets, is being made using a secret genetic engineering process, which >some scientists claim needs further testing for toxic side-effects. > >The use of genetic engineering to make aspartame has stayed secret until >now because there is no modified DNA in the finished product. Monsanto, the >pioneering GM food giant, which makes aspartame, insists that it is >completely safe. But some scientists fear that not enough is known about >the process of making it. One of the two elements that make up the >sweetener can be produced by genetically engineered bacteria, and >scientists say that they cannot rule out toxic side-effects. > >........ > >Last summer "The Ecologist" prepared a Monsanto-centered edition but it was >pulped by the printer because of threat of libel. > >MichaelP posted it at >http://www.gn.apc.org/ecologist/SeptOct/ > >..... > >GUARDIAN (London) Monday June 21, 1999 > >Leaders reject GM policing > >Ian Black in Cologne > >Leaders of the G7 industrial nations and Russia in Cologne failed to agree >a French plan for a body to police world food standards, but compromised by >setting up global scientific working groups to review genetic modification >questions. > >Tony Blair said at the end of yesterday's summit that he welcomed a >decision to "evaluate evidence properly", saying people needed to know >genetic modification issues were being carefully scrutinised. > >"Given the controversy and debate over GM foods I think this is a >worthwhile thing to do," he said. "The more people see what's happening >around the world the better." > >France's proposal for a world regulator did not win the support of the >United States, where agrochemical conglomerates such as Monstanto and >Novartis are based. But the summit directed the Organisation on Economic >Cooperation and Development to "undertake a study of the implications of >biotechnology and other aspects of food safety." > >Lobbyists warn that the latest scientific developments are creating a >future of dependency on GM crops before effective international safety >measures can be put in place. > > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 22 16:25:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA01278 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:25:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29549; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:07:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (daemon@smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29164 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:03:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA27642 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:03:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-20-218.phx.primenet.com(206.165.20.218), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd027612; Tue Jun 22 13:03:26 1999 Message-ID: <376FEC15.B27D8033@primenet.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:03:33 -0700 From: Jim & Jenni Muir X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {TLC;RETAIL} (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: off: suttle energies water treatment References: <000701bebb83$3b7e5ec0$11c76cce@netacc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1181 Guillermo, I saw a portable pen like device called the Penergizer for $125 US dollars in a catalog called Cutting Edge. It's listed along with Grander Living Water systems, although I have no direct experience with it. Cutting Edge has a web site: www.cutcat.com Their phone is (800) 497-9516. Their e-mail is cutcat@cutcat.com. Their address is: P.O.Box 5034, Southampton, New York 11969. Hope this is what you were looking for. Jenni Muir Glendale, Arizona Guillermo Romero wrote: > I will take advantage of the opportunity to reiterat my question about a web site or further info on the "writing pen" like device that one can introduce in a glass of water to purify it. I even remember a distributor for such a device, but I can not locate any info now. > > Could you or someone else in the list help me ? > > Regards > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 22 17:16:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA02587 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03411; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:59:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand5.global.net.uk (sand5.global.net.uk [194.126.80.249]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03362 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p65s04a03.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.164.102] helo=raithby.globalnet.co.uk) by sand5.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 10wXdn-0000y7-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:59:35 +0100 Message-ID: <376FF810.50B3203C@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:54:40 +0100 From: ALISON EADES X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: GM food news References: <376FAEF8.7C85@cwcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1182 Just to add what I heard, Tony; in Brussels the European Commission took a decision (at least a year ago) to increase the minimum amount of contamination with herbicide allowed so that GM crops could be let into the market. This decision was not told to the UK (European?) food industry and the minimum rate was raised by 200 times!! British politicans said they were sure the decision was safe because this level would not harm our health (amazing).................. Alison Tony Nelson-Smith wrote: > Just in case Michael doesn't in due course provide a more detailed > posting, I thought I'd mention an item I caught on British TV news. > First, most of the major European food processors/retailers have formed > a joint organisation to establish sources of non-genetically modified > crops (apparently Brazil, for example, produces large quantities of > non-GM soya). A spokesman for Sainsbury's (major British supermarket > chain) said that, as their customers overwhelmingly demand non-GM food, > they will be making every effort to provide it. It seems that they will > still stock products made from GM crops, but promise to label every item > clearly, so that the customer can make an informed choice. The > presenter commented that US farmers will soon feel the commercial > pressure to switch from GM to conventional crop varieties (wishful > thinking ?). Second, one major British processor of basic raw materials > for the food industry is setting up a second production line for soya > lecithin which will use exclusively non-GM soya; the product will be > marketed with a logo which they hope other producers will also adopt for > GM-free materials. > You may already know that one of the British field-scale trials of GM > rape has been aborted. The farmer, who previously appeared on TV giving > strong support to GM crops, also grows organic crops (strange man !) and > apparently the farm is managed by trustees on behalf of his children. > They ordered the developing plants to be sprayed with a herbicide to > which they are not resistant (strange organic farming !) for fear that > the 'buffer zone' was insufficient, the other crops would be > contaminated and the farm would lose its organic certification. > Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 22 21:10:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06653 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA17395; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 20:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA17278 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 20:47:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.181.97] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.135]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FDR00CE17ISJT@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 18:20:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 18:24:49 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: off: suttle energies water treatment In-reply-to: <376FEC15.B27D8033@primenet.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <000701bebb83$3b7e5ec0$11c76cce@netacc.net> X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1183 >Guillermo, >I saw a portable pen like device called the Penergizer for $125 US >dollars in a catalog called Cutting Edge. It's listed along with >Grander Living Water systems, although I have no direct experience with >it. Cutting Edge has a web site: www.cutcat.com Their phone is (800) >497-9516. Their e-mail is cutcat@cutcat.com. Their address is: P.O.Box >5034, Southampton, New York 11969. Hope this is what you were looking >for. >Jenni Muir >Glendale, Arizona > Many, many thanks Jenni: Just what I was looking for. I did a search on penergizer and found an article about Johann Grandier (the inventor) and the Living Water info that I was trying to locate. Warm greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 22 22:22:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07660 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 22:22:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA22295; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 22:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22208 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:58:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-006.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.106]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11485 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:10:09 +1200 Message-ID: <000c01bebd19$dd5c5340$6af631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: Its all new to me too!!!! (The Biodynam calendar) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:43:56 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1184 Dear Martha, I drew up a schemetic calendar based on a timeline of winter solstice to winter solstice, so theoretically it is not hemisphere specific. It set out the ascending/descending curve of the sun, to which was added the twelve (aprox) similar curves of the moon against the sun curve, and then the line of KgDM/Ha/day grass growth as the expression of the theoretical curves of planetary movement in the form of growth. From here one could then draw models of prep usage, animal health programmes, and crop management programmes in a conceptual sense so one could then develop practical programmes to suit ones own situation, needs and preferences. Is that the sort of thing you mean? It is to date no more than lecture notes for the Taruna BD Course but could be developed further. Regards Gareth Bodle. -----Original Message----- From: Martha Wells To: 'bdnow@envirolink.org' Date: Sunday, 20 June 1999 01:28 AM Subject: RE: Its all new to me too!!!! (The Biodynam calendar) >The discussion of a biodynamic 'chain of events' calendar came about awhile >back and I kept hoping someone might have a working calendar on their >webside. None were posted so I'm asking now, if someone has worked up such >a calendar, and is it available anywhere on the web? > >On June 8, Gareth wrote up a great description of the workings of calendar >interpretation, which I saved to a doc file. And, the 'Manifestations' >graph that (?) can't recall who put it up, but it's also useful and >educational as a mapping tool. (Hubby has a large CAD printer for >blueprints he gets in on the jobsite, he printed this out in color on 11 x >14 paper, and it's impressive!!) >Anyhow, my question is, IS there a calendar everyone refers to, or is this >a do-it-yourself project? >martha > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 23 11:51:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16983 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:51:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28710; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28431 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:34:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.20.211]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:35:26 +0100 Message-ID: <3770FF6D.5361@cwcom.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:38:22 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Its all new to me too!!!! (The Biodynam calendar) References: <000c01bebd19$dd5c5340$6af631ca@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1185 Gareth - Your calendar sounds fascinating. Is there any chance that we could share it ? If it forms part of a course, I'd be glad to pay a reasonable sum for a copy, perhaps with a little explanatory text (no reason why the good guys should do everything for free): or, if you're willing, could we ask Alan to put it up on his website, or send it out on BDNow! as an attachment ? Regards, Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 23 16:10:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA24925 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:10:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA19954; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:57:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19627 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.161.38]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990623195619.GMNX784493.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:56:19 +1200 Message-ID: <37713BC6.5036@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:55:50 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Astrality questions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1186 Guillermo Romero wrote: > > Dear Glen: > > Thank you so much for taking the time to expand on your concepts and my comments. > > Althought I can not say I fully understand your answers; your writings over the years have being a motive to expand my curiosity, learning and comprehension of BD beyond the "how to do it and do not ask why" approach of many of the official sources. GA Guillermo, This is a very reassuring comment. While I appreciate much of what I say goes over most peoples heads, I have long worked on the 'carrot' theory. If people are provided with the extreme, they at least know it or something is there and therefore it can act as a stimulus to head towards. This has been amidst the cries of concern 'it will scare people away' by those who I see as keeping the interested and intelligent in a perpetual BD kindergarten - for whatever other reasons they might have. Steiner set us the carrot and all I wish to do is meet his vision of what Biodynamics is and can be. Just imagine if RS was afraid to speak it as he saw it. One thing I know is the organic Biodynamics most BDAs are passing off as Biodynamics, is certificate level 101. Accomodating the lowest common denominator will only keep BD at its lowest manifestation. What a waste of the opportunity of this moment. Manifestation occurs by spiritual forces being formed around a vaccum. Matter is then sucked into the vaccum. The spiritual forces can be accumulated and formed by our ability to imagine. If there was not clouds and stars to give us a sense of other realities being possible, we might easily believe the Earth is all there is in Creation. If nothing else I am pleased to be a comet flashing by suggesting there is MORE, than the bland gruel I see presented as BD in NZ. This vaccum phase of creation is consciously percieved at the state RS called the "Solid Land" and I call 'Persephone'. It is the next stage beyond Pluto -The Sharmanic state or RSs Spirit Man, and is the first level of full spiritual consciousness we commonly call enlightenment. Nevertheless we create spiritual vaccums all the time unconsciously when we imagine or concentrate. There is a wonderful piece by RS that follows on from JTs quote in his Astrality piece, indicating this same vaccum process arises as part of our digestion of food. Essentially he is saying that in digestion our metabolic system breaks down the substance and extracts the etheric forces from that food. In doing so a etheric 'pattern' of that food is formed. These etheric forces then move up to our head region were a negative vaccum image of that pattern arises. It is into this vaccum that the Terrestrial forces (of lecture 8) are drawn. In poisonous plants IU the etheric forces are made more rigid by the increased Astrality, so that when we try to digest the plant our etheric forces can not overcome the increased astrality so a more rigid form remains in our metabolic system. This in turn mirrors a more rigid vaccum form in our head. In RS example he was talking about using poisonous plants as medicines and so a small amount of this rigid form, of henbane for example will help to order the scattered or dreamy consciousness of a Neptune inflicted individual. He does not talk about what happens in the case of poisoning. I imagine this astral dominate vaccum is so strong a being that it attracts an intense amount of Terrestrial forces -which I have indicated are internalised cosmic and world Astrality. This astral 'invasion' becomes so strong that the Ego is pushed out and the etheric forces we need for life are consumed leading to all the symptoms of poisoning. > > I only wish I could have the energy and dharma required to develop the rishi like capacities, so that this realities unfolded naturaly. Some how I know that the full comprehension of the suttle world would only come this way and not throught the rational-intelectual effort. But at this point it is most all I have and I thank you for your help. The path to Persephone starts with the Chiron doorway of the arhhh experience that there is more beyond the physical, (RS 1st guardian of the threshold); which opensthe door to the Uranus state of Collective Unconcious thinking (RS imagination) where we can conceptualise about the spirit - pretty much what we are doing here on BDNOW; which leads to the Neptune state of Coll. UnCons. feeling (RS Inspiration) where we can mystically percieve the astrality & spirit through our feelings - a more passive phase of beginning to experience it rather than trying to conceptualise about it and achieved through relaxing and letting the images float around, by allowing your experiences, impressions and imagination to 'stew', peppered by but not constrained by your Uranus concepts. Here an experience of and connection with the 'cosmic flow' develops; which simaltaneously leads to the Pluto state of the Coll. Uncons. Will (RS Spirit Man) where the spiritual world imposes itself onto us more physically yet still unconsciously, at first. It is through becoming conscious of these spiritual forces and how they are different from the Astrality, yet how they both impact on matter (through the sharmanic journey) and how we can and must dance with them, that we reach Charon (RS 2nd guardian of the threshold) who is the gatekeeper to the Spiritlands and there stands Persephone, followed by two more states of Vulcan and Apollo (Sun). Interestingly this process does not have to be linear as I have described it, but bits of each can occur similtaneously. So the less preconceived ideas you have the better. Which is the joke about the Uranus phase. Our modern society has to think and conceptualise about things, which can easily hold us away from recognising the experience when we meet it. So Uranus is helpful and dangerous. While we can develop a road map of the spirit, at some point we have to abandon it and rely 100% on our other senses of intutition and faith. All esoteric texts are just a Uranian attempt at providing road markers which are OK till you reach Neptunes ocean edge and the physical marker bouys become fewer, while the inner collective unconcious impulses become louder and more frequent, for those sensitive to them. It is when we become more familiar with the unmanifest and realise we can become a creative influence on it, as part of it, that we are in the last half of Plutos territory. So as much as you try and conceptualise my and others words and pictures please most of all relax, feel, imagine and dream. Let the words prod and then let them float around your experiences, bringing gentle recognitions as you 'see' things for yourself. There is no where to go to 'learn' this. You have it with you, around you and in you now, all you really need to do is relax and experience as your 'willingness' creates a vaccum which will suck what is appropriate at the time, to you. Thank you for the opportunity to create a few road markers cheers GA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 23 19:53:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA00213 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 19:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05830; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 19:40:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05622 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 19:38:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xtra.co.nz ([203.96.101.28]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with ESMTP id <19990623234108.JDHQ784493.mta1-rme@xtra.co.nz> for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:41:08 +1200 Message-ID: <37716E94.2AC2A324@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:32:36 +1200 From: eaccess Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: eaccess X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNow Subject: Spiritual Science - Road markers and Maps. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1187 Dear List The main difficulty of Rudolf Steiner's work, as I see it, is that it is difficult to know where to start! There is simply so much of it, and a lot of extra reading and study is needed for a true understanding of the 8 Agriculture lectures. In a sense, you have to know everything before you know anything! and there are some people who have found Rudolf Steiner's work inaccessible, but who might be able to contribute useful insights, if only they could be led down a path which would gradually build up a true understanding. A recently published book I believe has the solution to this problem. "The Burning Bush" - by Edward Reaugh Smith Anthroposophic Press 1997. ISBN 0 - 88010 - 447 - 3 (paperback) Edward Smith has approached Steiner's work in a very structured and logical way ( it is easy to believe he is a successful lawyer) primarily from the point of a Bible commentary, but the "Charts and Tabulations" section of over 130 pages ( which he calls a "Study-helps" section) is extremely valuable for a new student, and I cannot recommend it highly enough. In this section, Edward Smith does 'thumbnails' of 89 of Steiners books, intended as "a refresher, thought-organiser, research or meditational aid", it is a basic road map, where none that I am aware of have existed before. His comprehensive Bibliography and Index over 100 pages more, an extra bonus. Available from amazon.com - US$23.96 plus shipping - excellent value as an introduction to Steiners work for any serious student. JT From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 23 22:02:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA01718 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:02:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18332; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:49:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yancey.main.nc.us (yancey.main.nc.us [209.192.111.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18165 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:46:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from donnas (ppp1.yancey.main.nc.us [209.192.111.132]) by yancey.main.nc.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29135 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:41:03 -0400 Message-ID: <004c01bebde2$1a339800$846fc0d1@donnas> From: "donnas" To: Subject: Re: off: water treatment Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:33:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1188 There are some different style laundry discs, available through some catalogs such as Real Goods and Harmony....... that seem to act on water to reduce surface tension and eliminate the need for soaps , and using similar elements as the Sosei water treatment...... such as activated ceramics and tourmaline gemstone bits....... These have been around for a number of years and I use one from Harmony. It is a perforated gadget that you just put into the washing machine and the water circulates through it as the washer agitates. The one listed in Real Goods has activated ceramics and copper and silver. I have not tried putting it in the bath tub with me and there is no way to attach it in line to my shower or drinking water ....... I think the water needs to be agitated through it so just submerging it in water before drinking the water or while bathing will not do the trick. It seems like the same technology with ionized oxygen and disassociated water molecule clusters........etc.....I'm no chemist, but it seems to work and dirty laundry gets clean. Donatera From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 23 23:42:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03652 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 23:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27131; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 23:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26833 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 23:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz ([202.50.81.131]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with ESMTP id <19990624033101.LWUU784493.mta1-rme@nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz> for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:31:01 +1200 Received: by NT_SVR1 with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:20:36 +1200 Message-ID: <6120A29E7C51D0119E9700805F4C5E8D12520C@NT_SVR1> From: Lynne Sheridan To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: Thankyou Tony R Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:20:35 +1200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1189 Many thanks for the info you sent re BD. Ironically it was the article in Central Region Flowers Assoc on your operation that first sowed the seed of curiosity about BD. Do you require any of the info back? It will certainly take a wee while to get through it. Regards Lynne From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jun 24 04:41:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA07360 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:41:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA08619; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:27:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA08406 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:23:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([210.55.146.27]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990624082613.OHVV688839.mta2-rme@default> for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:26:13 +1200 Message-ID: <3771EBCE.2AFC@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:27:42 +1200 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Thankyou Tony R References: <6120A29E7C51D0119E9700805F4C5E8D12520C@NT_SVR1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1190 Hi Lynne That info pack is for you to keep to help you get started into Bd flower growing. I am hoping to develope something better for Flower growers and gardeners as time goes by and when I have the time to document by own BD growing techniques. As more people become interested maybe we could form a flowers growers cluster group and work together. Happy reading. Tony Robinson Lynne Sheridan wrote: > > Many thanks for the info you sent re BD. > Ironically it was the article in Central Region Flowers Assoc on your > operation that first sowed the seed of curiosity about BD. > Do you require any of the info back? It will certainly take a wee while > to get through it. > > Regards Lynne From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jun 25 09:07:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04895 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24139; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:53:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23911 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00E73F85@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 8:47:48 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 25 Jun 99 08:49:32 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 25 Jun 99 08:49:22 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:49:13 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Astrality questions Priority: normal In-reply-to: <37713BC6.5036@xtra.co.nz> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <2F9BF9E3522@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1191 > So the less > preconceived ideas you have the better. Which is the joke about the > Uranus phase. Our modern society has to think and conceptualise about > things, which can easily hold us away from recognising the experience > when we meet it. So Uranus is helpful and dangerous. While we can > develop a road map of the spirit, at some point we have to abandon it > and rely 100% on our other senses of intutition and faith. All esoteric > texts are just a Uranian attempt at providing road markers which are OK > till you reach Neptunes ocean edge and the physical marker bouys become > fewer, while the inner collective unconcious impulses become louder and > more frequent, for those sensitive to them. It is when we become more > familiar with the unmanifest and realise we can become a creative > influence on it, as part of it, that we are in the last half of Plutos > territory. I just wanted to share something I saw last night on tv. Scientists (trying to get a "westernized" concept of "chi") were measuring the brain waves of top athletes as they performed their sport. What they found was that as they prepared for their activity, their brain waves were the small, choppy waves of "beta" (which was presented as the 'thinking man's' brain wave), but when they actually got into doing whatever it is that they are so well trained to do, their brain waves changed to the long, undulating waves of "alpha" (which I was led to believe is 'no mind' wave, or the wave of not thinking). They did not once mention the word "zen," but that is what I thought of. And this seems to me to also match with what Glen is saying above. That "Uranus phase" or "beta phase" has to give way to the "Pluto phase" or "alpha wave phase" or "zazen" mind-no-mind to get to the next level. And that can't ever be adequately expressed in words, it just has to be experienced. Do you think it is fair to mesh these concepts in with RS's? Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jun 25 10:35:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06500 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:35:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29499; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:21:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29358 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 28856 invoked from network); 25 Jun 1999 14:18:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.29.177) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 25 Jun 1999 14:18:55 -0000 Message-ID: <09da01bebf14$d10b9180$7721d2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: Astrality questions Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:12:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1192 I am reading the Agriculture lectures for the first time, and I am finding it very interesting. I think it is clear from comments in the First Discussion that Steiner thought that people who were able to directly perceive or feel could operate without the 'road maps' (charts and tables, measurements, etc), but he encouraged them to develop such road maps to aid others, and to offer empirical proofs to a skeptical world. As far as meditative states are concerned, the pithiest Steiner one-liner is: "It is not a bad thing, you know, when a farmer can meditate and thus become ever more receptive to the revelations of nitrogen. " So I think RS was on the same wavelength, so to speak... Frank---recalling a Bob Carter tagline from the OGL--- "Meditation--It's not what you think!"....:-) -----Original Message----- From: Anita Graf (Staff) To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, June 25, 1999 8:59 AM Subject: Re: Astrality questions > So the less > preconceived ideas you have the better. Which is the joke about the > Uranus phase. Our modern society has to think and conceptualise about > things, which can easily hold us away from recognising the experience > when we meet it. So Uranus is helpful and dangerous. While we can > develop a road map of the spirit, at some point we have to abandon it > and rely 100% on our other senses of intutition and faith. All esoteric > texts are just a Uranian attempt at providing road markers which are OK > till you reach Neptunes ocean edge and the physical marker bouys become > fewer, while the inner collective unconcious impulses become louder and > more frequent, for those sensitive to them. It is when we become more > familiar with the unmanifest and realise we can become a creative > influence on it, as part of it, that we are in the last half of Plutos > territory. I just wanted to share something I saw last night on tv. Scientists (trying to get a "westernized" concept of "chi") were measuring the brain waves of top athletes as they performed their sport. What they found was that as they prepared for their activity, their brain waves were the small, choppy waves of "beta" (which was presented as the 'thinking man's' brain wave), but when they actually got into doing whatever it is that they are so well trained to do, their brain waves changed to the long, undulating waves of "alpha" (which I was led to believe is 'no mind' wave, or the wave of not thinking). They did not once mention the word "zen," but that is what I thought of. And this seems to me to also match with what Glen is saying above. That "Uranus phase" or "beta phase" has to give way to the "Pluto phase" or "alpha wave phase" or "zazen" mind-no-mind to get to the next level. And that can't ever be adequately expressed in words, it just has to be experienced. Do you think it is fair to mesh these concepts in with RS's? Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jun 25 11:14:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07228 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:14:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01922; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01748 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from twiggins (ts1-d05.flk.auracom.com [165.154.251.37]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA18234 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:00:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199906251500.LAA18234@mail1.auracom.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Tom Wiggins" To: Subject: Re: Astrality questions Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 07:56:18 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1193 Do you know what Uranus and the space ship Star trek have in common? Write me! ---------- > From: Anita Graf (Staff) > To: twiggins # fll.auracom.com > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jun 25 11:14:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07240 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:14:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01844; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:01:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01718 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:59:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from twiggins (ts1-d05.flk.auracom.com [165.154.251.37]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA18093 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:00:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199906251500.LAA18093@mail1.auracom.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Tom Wiggins" To: Subject: unscribe Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 07:56:06 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1194 I WOULD LIKE TO UNSCRIBE FROM YOUR LIST. I HAVE TRIED BUT ALL ATTEMPTS HAVE FAILED. PLEASE DO SO FOR ME , IF YOU WILL. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jun 25 12:56:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09804 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:56:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09593; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:43:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09098 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:41:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.161.48]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990625164430.CFYO784493.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 04:44:30 +1200 Message-ID: <3773B1CF.E69@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 04:43:59 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Astrality questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1195 > Do you think it is fair to mesh these > concepts in with RS's? Ultimately their is only one reality, so whoever talks about it, with whatever words, they are all trying to describe the same thing. One of the biggest efforts I see we have had on BDNOW is to understand which words people are using for what, rather than the overall picture of what is going on, which we have been doing too. Cheers Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jun 25 13:16:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA10234 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:16:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11003; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:03:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10904 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199906251702.NAA10904@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 11380 invoked from network); 25 Jun 1999 17:02:41 -0000 Received: from i48-22-37.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO DAVE) (216.26.7.101) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 25 Jun 1999 17:02:41 -0000 X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: OFF: Belgian food contamination Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1196 another off topic item but interesting. This whole episode was caused by only 8 liters of contaminated oil! Seems to be a comment on how sensitive our system can be to very small inputs of the wrong thing. BTW, similar contamination occured in the US when a few sacks of fire-retardant chemical were accidentally dumped into a batch of dairy feed. (Yes, that seems strange but the same feed mill was manufacturing both products.) The resulting PCB contamination blanketed most of the state of Michigan and ended up as contamination in fresh water fish in the streams etc. Not to mention the poor cows. =======================Electronic Edition======================== . . . RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY #656 . . ---June 24, 1999--- . . HEADLINES: . . A CAMPAIGN OF REASSURING FALSEHOODS . . ========== . . Environmental Research Foundation . . P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403 . . Fax (410) 263-8944; E-mail: erf@rachel.org . . ========== . . All back issues are available by E-mail: send E-mail to . . info@rachel.org with the single word HELP in the message. . . Back issues are also available from http://www.rachel.org. . . To start your own free subscription, send E-mail to . . listserv@rachel.org with the words . . SUBSCRIBE RACHEL-WEEKLY YOUR NAME in the message. . . The Rachel newsletter is now also available in Spanish; . . to learn how to subscribe, send the word AYUDA in an . . E-mail message to info@rachel.org. . ================================================================= A CAMPAIGN OF REASSURING FALSEHOODS Evidently the permanent government in the U.S. now sees dioxin in the food supply as a threat to itself because it has begun a new campaign of reassuring falsehoods, this time in the WALL STREET JOURNAL. We use the term "permanent government" as it was described by Lewis Lapham, editor of HARPER'S MAGAZINE: "The permanent government, a secular oligarchy... comprises the Fortune 500 companies and their attendant lobbyists, the big media and entertainment syndicates, the civil and military services, the larger research universities and law firms. It is this government that hires the country's politicians and sets the terms and conditions under which the country's citizens can exercise their right --God-given but increasingly expensive --to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Obedient to the rule of men, not laws, the permanent government oversees the production of wealth, builds cities, manufactures goods, raises capital, fixes prices, shapes the landscape, and reserves the right to assume debt, poison rivers, cheat the customers, receive the gifts of federal subsidy, and speak to the American people in the language of low motive and base emotion."[1] Lapham distinguishes the "permanent government," which is not elected, from the "provisional government," which is: "The provisional government is the spiritual democracy that comes and goes on the trend of a political season and oversees the production of pageants.... Positing a rule of laws instead of men, the provisional government must live within the cage of high-minded principle, addressing its remarks to the imaginary figure known as the informed citizen or the thinking man, a superior being who detests superficial reasoning and quack remedies, never looks at PLAYBOY, remembers the lessons of history, trusts Bill Moyers, worries about political repression in Liberia, reads (and knows himself improved by) the op-ed page of the WALL STREET JOURNAL," Lapham writes. * * * Starting in March, Belgian health authorities discovered dioxin and PCBs in poultry, eggs, beef, pork, milk, butter and even in mayonnaise. Dioxin and PCBs are members of a family of 219 toxic chemicals that can damage the immune system and the hormones of humans and other animals. They can also cause cancer, according to the World Health Organization. [See REHW #636, #653.] The toxicity of dioxins and PCBs are reported in "toxic equivalents" -- a toxicity reporting system that takes into account the particular mixture of dioxins and PCBs that is being measured. In late April, the Dutch Ministry of Health notified the Belgians that they had measured dioxin in two chickens at 958 and 775 parts per trillion toxic equivalents. In Belgium, the allowable limit for dioxin in chicken is 5 ppt toxic equivalents, and in the U.S. the limit is one ppt.[2] Still Belgian authorities said nothing publicly. Then in early June word got out that Belgian foodstuffs were widely contaminated and the European Union and the U.S. clapped a quarantine on foods from Belgium. Other countries around the world immediately followed suit: May- lasia, Myanmar, Uruguay, Thailand, Australia, Brazil, Rus- sia, and China, among others. Suddenly tons of food were pulled from shops throughout Belgium and incinerated, leaving shelves bare. Within two weeks, the incident had cost Belgian farmers, grocers and food exporters an esti- mated $500 million -- a lot of money in a small country. The problem was traced to 8 liters of oil containing PCBs contaminated with 50 to 80 milligrams of dioxin. The British NEW SCIENTIST says "one theory is" that the toxic oil was taken from an electrical transformer and dumped illegally into a public recycling container for used frying oil.[3] The contaminated oil ended up in an 88-ton (80 metric tonne) batch of fat produced by Verkest, a company located near Ghent, Belgium. The fat was sold to 12 manufacturers of animal feed, who then produced 1760 tons (1600 metric tonnes) of contaminated animal feed. Starting in January, 1999, the feed was sold mainly in Belgium but also in France and the Netherlands. According to CHEMICAL & ENGINEERING NEWS, at a public hearing June 9, a Dutch official said the problem had been solved in his country -- all of the contaminated foods had been eaten. No one is sure how many people were affected because no one is yet sure how widely the contaminated feed was distributed. "Either a few people got a large dose, or many people got a small dose," said Wim Traag from the Dutch State Institute for Quality Control of Agricultural Products. The NEW SCIENTIST quoted Martin van der Berg from the University of Utrecht who calculated that adults who ate chicken and eggs contaminated at 900 ppt would take in 100 times the amount considered "safe" by the World Health Organization. A 3-year-old child eating a single egg contaminated at 900 ppt toxic equivalents would increase his or her total body burden of dioxin equivalents by 20%, van der Berge calculated. He said this would probably not be enough to cause cancer in humans "but could affect neural and cognitive development, the immune system, and thyroid and steroid hormones, especially in unborn and young children," the NEW SCIENTIST reported. Two weeks into the crisis, on June 13, the Belgian government suffered a massive defeat in elections. The next day the WALL STREET JOURNAL announced the debacle this way: "The center-left coalition of Prime Minister Jean-Luc Dehaene suffered a devastating defeat in national elections Sunday, punished for its handling of a food contamination scandal...." Mr. Dehaene promptly resigned. Clearly, the political hazards of a dioxin-contaminated food supply were not lost on the permanent government in the U.S. Less than a week after the initial revelations about dioxin in Belgian foods, the WALL STREET JOURNAL began a campaign of disinformation. On June 7, the JOURNAL had one of its staff reporters, Stephen D. Moore, try to reassure its readers under the headline, "Dioxins' Risk to Humans is Difficult to Appraise."[4] The opening paragraph of the story did not mention that dioxins are toxic; it said dioxins are created by many industrial processes but also "in compost heaps." How could anyone develop a healthy respect for a chemical that originates in a pile of lawn clippings? No one fears the familiar. Very effective propaganda. In the second paragraph, the JOURNAL introduced the idea that dioxins are toxic: "While there are dozens of different dioxins and furans, a closely related family of molecules, only about a half-dozen are toxic." Not true, but effective propaganda nevertheless. Then the real point of Mr. Moore's work unfolds: a re-telling of the story of the 1976 accident at a Hoffman-LaRoche pesticide factory in Seveso, Italy, which spewed dioxin into the surrounding community. "At Seveso, a cloud of chemicals containing dioxin was released into the air and eventually contaminated an area of 15 square kilometers with a population of 37,000 people," the JOURNAL said. And what happened to these 37,000 people? The JOURNAL now quotes Roche, the company that caused the accident: 447 citizens of Seveso "developed skin injuries that healed within a few weeks." And, "Another 193 people, mainly children, developed cases of chloracne, a condition characterized by dark skin blotches, that take months or even years to disappear." And that's the extent of it. In the next sentence, the JOURNAL assures us that dioxin caused no permanent injuries at Seveso: "The Italian government has conducted studies of longer-term effects from the Seveso accident. At least so far, there's no evidence of any significant increase of miscarriages or cancer among local residents." Very reassuring, but completely untrue. Actually, the Italian government's chief researcher, Pier Alberto Bertazzi, has published a series of studies in peer-reviewed journals, beginning in 1993, showing that many people exposed to dioxins at Seveso have suffered a variety of serious long-term effects including increased incidence of diabetes, heart disease, and cancer, including cancers of the stomach and rectum, leukemias (cancer of the blood-forming cells), Hodgkin's disease, and soft tissue sarcomas.[5]-8 Now the JOURNAL returns to the theme that dioxins are natural: "Dioxins also can come from natural sources. One contamination case in the U.S. a few years ago resulted from the use of clay as a binder in chicken feed. American regulators eventually traced the contaminated clay to a quarry in the state of Arkansas and established that the source of the dioxins was prehistoric." [See REHW #555.] In actual fact, American regulators did no such thing -- they never did figure out where that dioxin came from -- but this is unvarnished propaganda, and effective as such. \tab Evidently not satisfied with this series of misrepresentations, the WALL STREET JOURNAL on June 21 turned over its editorial page to Elizabeth Whelan, president of the American Council on Science and Health, a scheme-tank supported by the chemical industry. Ms. Whelan is, frankly, one of the crudest and most shameless dissemblers of our time. She launched her career as lapdog of the permanent government by falsifying the history of Alar, the cancer-causing farm chemical that used to be found in apple juice intended for babies in the U.S., before the apple industry came to its senses and swore off the poison in 1989. [See REHW #530-535.] In the WALL STREET JOURNAL June 21, Ms. Whelan assured her readers that "there was no evidence" of "health-threatening toxic materials" in Belgian food. Oh? This is because, she says, "no one has ever died or become chronically ill due to environmental exposure [to dioxin]." Oh? The problem in Belgium is Belgium's "unnnecessarily stringent laws," Ms. Whelan asserts. The dioxin problem in Belgium was imaginary, Ms. Whelan assures us. It "can be explained as an example of hysterical contagion," Ms. Whelan asserts. She then waxes academic, quoting a college professor who says mass hysterias have been recorded throughout European history. On this basis, Ms. Whelan concludes that the fear of dioxin in Belgium is just like the Alar episode in the U.S. in 1989 -- a make-believe problem. It is interesting to us that the permanent government has to rely on such crude misrepresentations to reassure its loyal followers in the business community (those who read the op-ed page of the WALL STREET JOURNAL and know themselves improved by it). To us it means that the anti-dioxin campaign being conducted by grass-roots activists in the U.S. [see REHW #479] is having a good effect. No doubt the permanent government has reason to be nervous: they have contaminated the U.S. food supply with dangerous levels of dioxins and, as the Bible says, the truth will set people free. [See REHW #414, #463, #636.] ========== [1] Lewis H. Lapham, "Lights, Camera, Democracy!" HARPER'S MAGAZINE August 1996, pgs. 33-38, quoted with permission. [2] Bette Hileman, "Belgium has a problem: Dioxin-tainted food," CHEMICAL & ENGINEERING NEWS June 14, 1999, pg. 9. [3] Debora MacKenzie, "Recipe for disaster," NEW SCIENTIST No. 2190 (June 12, 1999), pg. 4. [4] Craig R. Whitney, "Food Scandal Adds to Belgium's Image of Disarray," NEW YORK TIMES June 9, 1999, pg. A4. [5] Pier Alberto Bertazzi and others, "Cancer Incidence in a Population Accidentally Exposed to 2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-PARA-dioxin," EPIDEMIOLOGY Vol. 4 (September, 1993), pgs. 398-406. [6] P.A. Bertazzi, "The Seveso studies on early and long-term effects of dioxin exposure: a review," ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH PERSPECTIVES Vol. 106 Supplement 2 (April 1998), pgs. 625-633. [7] P.A. Bertazzi and others, "Dioxin exposure and cancer risk: a 15-year mortality study after the 'Seveso accident,'" EPIDEMIOLOGY Vol. 8, No. 6 (November 1997), pgs. 646-652. [8] A.C. Pesatori and others, "Dioxin exposure and non-malignant health effects: a mortality study," OCCUPATIONAL AND ENVIRONMENTAL MEDICINE Vol. 55, No. 2 (February 1998), pgs. 126-131. Descriptor terms: dioxin; food safety; belgium; ################################################################ NOTICE In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107 this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving it for research and educational purposes. Environmental Research Foundation provides this electronic version of RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY free of charge even though it costs the organization considerable time and money to produce it. We would like to continue to provide this service free. You could help by making a tax-deductible contribution (anything you can afford, whether $5.00 or $500.00). Please send your tax-deductible contribution to: Environmental Research Foundation, P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403-7036. Please do not send credit card information via E-mail. For further information about making tax-deductible contributions to E.R.F. by credit card please phone us toll free at 1-888-2RACHEL, or at (410) 263-1584, or fax us at (410) 263-8944. --Peter Montague, Editor ################################################################ ======================== David Robison Stellar Processes From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 26 01:10:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA23027 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:10:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA12915; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 00:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA12769 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 00:55:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from twiggins (ts1-d02.flk.auracom.com [165.154.251.34]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA28979 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 00:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199906260456.AAA28979@mail1.auracom.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Tom Wiggins" To: Subject: Re: Astrality questions Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 21:49:48 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1197 ---------- > From: Tom Wiggins > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Subject: Re: Astrality questions > Date: Friday, June 25, 1999 7:56 AM > > Do you know what toilet paper and the space ship Star trek have in common? Write > me! > > ---------- > > From: Anita Graf (Staff) > > To: twiggins # fll.auracom.com > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 26 10:00:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25501 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:00:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22886; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 09:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22762 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 09:43:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.103] ("port 2049"@[148.233.78.103]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FDX00KJGV976J@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 08:36:51 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 20:47:22 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: off: sorry I was cut off for three days In-reply-to: <000c01bebd19$dd5c5340$6af631ca@computer> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1198 Hi: I was cut off from the BD-Now list for three days due to server trouble. If there was any message during that time that concerned me specifically, I will appreciate if the originator could send a copy to my email address directly. Many thanks Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 26 10:18:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25586 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:18:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23382; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:05:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23316 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:03:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.153] (pm3shep1-163-16.intrepid.net [209.190.163.16]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA21465 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:03:42 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:03:20 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD: New book on Homa Farming Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1199 The new book HOMA FARMING FOR THE NEW AGE by Jarek Bizberg is now available for $11.00 plus shipping. This book is a practical guide to Homa farming based on the ancient science of Agnihotra, and provides Homa Farming information from around the world. 152 pages, color photos. Those of you who read Satsang know that the Peruvian government has wholeheartedly endorsed Homa Therapy for growing food and healing diseased plantations. **************************************************************************** ** * Richard & Lisa Powers * Visit our website at: http://www.summit.net/home/Agnihotra.htm * Mail: Copperworks, Rt 8 Box 365, Madison VA 22727 * Ph. 540-948-5463 * Fax: 540-948-5214 **************************************************************************** ** =================================================================== SUBSCRIBE to Our Hot Release Information Lists! Know the latest releases!! Get the BEST prices!! TORI AMOS LIST: igg@igg.com SUBJECT=SUBSCRIBE TORI-L You MUST include your FULL NAME and SHIPPING ADDRESS in the body of the message New Arrival/PRe-Order/ SALE Lists: igg@igg.com SUBJECT=SUBSCRIBE IGG-L ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CUSTOMER SERVICE: maura@intrepid.net Please Check Home Page for latest lists and info! http://www.igg.com =================================================================== How To Order Information: http://igg.com/howtoorder.html How To Pre-Order Information http://igg.com/HowToP.html =================================================================== INTERGALACTIC GARAGE Compact Disks and WorldWide Music Collectibles 110 West German Street POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 (304) 876-6818 / (304) 876-9414 FAX Email = igg@igg.com HOME PAGE: http://www.igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 26 10:28:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25677 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:28:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23716; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:15:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgate.eur.nl (mailgate.eur.nl [130.115.1.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23647 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bets.fbk.eur.nl (bets.fbk.eur.nl [130.115.150.2]) by mailgate.eur.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29072 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 16:14:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from student.fbk.eur.nl (rem-255-24.remote.eur.nl [130.115.255.24]) by bets.fbk.eur.nl (8.8.8/8.6.6) with ESMTP id QAA49361 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 16:14:05 +0200 Message-ID: <3774F086.8D16516C@student.fbk.eur.nl> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 16:23:50 +0100 From: Jon de Ruijter <174982@student.fbk.eur.nl> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Rotterdam School of Management X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Belgian food contamination References: <199906251702.NAA10904@envirolink.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1200 Well well, I see our European dioxin crise has reached the reporters in the USA also! We have a chain of butcher shops in Holland, called De Groene Weg) We sell only organic meat. Ofcourse the dioxin schandal is very important for us. It prooves (once again) that the conventional agriculture has gone way too far in producing more and more for less and less. Because of the horrible circumstances animals are raised and the even worse feeds they get. Believe me, this is not a incident. Time and time again, the governments discover that all kind of things happen with our food that we don't (want to) know of. De Groene Weg stores have had a increase in turnover of 65% the last month. It's amazing how people react on schandals like these and (more important) how soon they forget all about it again. We started in 1978 with our company and in all those years we've noticed that organic agriculture and foodprocessing is only possible by the so called 'costumer emancipation'. Only by signals from the costumers, producers can develop products with the high organic quality. De Groene Weg (and the organic foodbranche in Europe) are growing 15 to 20% each year for the last 3 year. More and more it becomes clear that the way we were going wasn't the right one. De Groene Weg is (by far) the biggest organic meat producer in Europe. We export to Danmark, Italy, Belgium, Germany, England and Sweden, deliver our 22 stores in Holland and 250 healthfoodstores and another 500 supermarkets throughout Europe. If there are any question at all about organic meat or the dioxin schandal, please view our website (www.degroeneweg.nl) and sent your mail. Sincerely, Jon de Ruijter From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 26 12:14:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26822 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26423; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 11:57:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26316 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 11:55:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.204.164]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sat, 26 Jun 1999 16:55:59 +0100 Message-ID: <3774F8F2.4EE5@cwcom.net> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 16:59:46 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: New virus Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1201 Friends - as no-one else has mentioned it, might I urge you to be very careful about e-mail attachments ? A new virus called ExploreZip can arrive, apparently in reply to an e-mail that you recently sent, with the invitation to download an attachment called ZIPPED_FILES.EXE If you do, it gives an error message indicating that the file cannot be read: but, in reality, it instals itself on your hard disc and searches for a wide range of files which it replaces with files containing no data. Apparently, overwritten files like these are difficult if not impossible to retrieve. It then replies to e-mails in your in-box, in order to infect your correspondents. The danger is that it appears to be a genuine attachment, sent by a friend. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 26 12:20:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26895 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26777; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:04:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26434 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 11:58:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d155.infoserve.net [199.175.157.155]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA00867 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 09:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <003901bebfed$294821a0$959dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF/ was cut off from internet for 1 day Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 08:54:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01BEBFB1.85EEF820" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1202 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BEBFB1.85EEF820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List and G. in Mexico, My server had problems for the last 24 hrs. The problem as you can see = was quite extensive! M. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BEBFB1.85EEF820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Dear List and G. in Mexico,
 
  My server had = problems for the=20 last 24 hrs. The problem as you can see was quite extensive!=20 M.
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BEBFB1.85EEF820-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 26 12:56:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27131 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:56:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27909; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:40:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wavecom.net (root@wave.sheridan.wy.us [206.54.116.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA27846 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:37:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dbrown (sher12.wavecom.net [206.54.116.97]) by wavecom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07711 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:37:05 -0600 Message-ID: <001401bebffa$fd7cdb20$617436ce@dbrown.wavecom.net> From: "Audrey Malan" To: Subject: Re: Homa Farming? Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:40:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1203 Richard & Lisa - can you give a brief explanation of Homa Farming? - thanks, Audrey -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, June 26, 1999 7:05 AM Subject: FWD: New book on Homa Farming > > >The new book HOMA FARMING FOR THE NEW AGE by Jarek Bizberg is now available >for $11.00 plus shipping. This book is a practical guide to Homa farming >based on the ancient science of Agnihotra, and provides Homa Farming >information from around the world. 152 pages, color photos. >Those of you who read Satsang know that the Peruvian government has >wholeheartedly endorsed Homa Therapy for growing food and healing diseased >plantations. >*************************************************************************** * >** >* Richard & Lisa Powers >* Visit our website at: http://www.summit.net/home/Agnihotra.htm >* Mail: Copperworks, Rt 8 Box 365, Madison VA 22727 >* Ph. 540-948-5463 >* Fax: 540-948-5214 >*************************************************************************** * >** > >=================================================================== > >SUBSCRIBE to Our Hot Release Information Lists! > Know the latest releases!! > Get the BEST prices!! > > >TORI AMOS LIST: igg@igg.com SUBJECT=SUBSCRIBE TORI-L > You MUST include your FULL NAME and SHIPPING ADDRESS in the body of the >message > >New Arrival/PRe-Order/ SALE Lists: igg@igg.com SUBJECT=SUBSCRIBE IGG-L > >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ > >CUSTOMER SERVICE: maura@intrepid.net > >Please Check Home Page for latest lists and info! > >http://www.igg.com > >=================================================================== >How To Order Information: http://igg.com/howtoorder.html >How To Pre-Order Information http://igg.com/HowToP.html >=================================================================== >INTERGALACTIC GARAGE >Compact Disks and WorldWide Music Collectibles >110 West German Street >POB 3047 >Shepherdstown, WV 25443 >(304) 876-6818 / (304) 876-9414 FAX >Email = igg@igg.com >HOME PAGE: http://www.igg.com > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 26 17:15:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA29181 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 17:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA07514; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 16:57:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07347 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 16:54:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.161.243]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990626205817.CMN1626.mta1-rme@garudix>; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 08:58:17 +1200 Message-ID: <37753ECA.32D3@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 08:57:46 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, agrisynergy@maelstrom.stjohns.edu Subject: OFF: DOLLYs Dead Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1204 Rumour has it around the anti GE network here, that Dolly the first cloned sheep has die. Last week they say. There was news about a month ago that she was aging at an unusual rate. There has been no formal news coverage about his event in New Zealand and I will attempt to get some sort of verification in the coming week. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 26 17:26:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA29307 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 17:26:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08198; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 17:14:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08054 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 17:11:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.161.243]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990626211427.GAE1626.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 09:14:27 +1200 Message-ID: <37754294.3C86@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 09:13:56 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: off: sorry I was cut off for three days References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1205 Guillermo Romero wrote: > > Hi: > > I was cut off from the BD-Now list for three days due to server trouble. > > If there was any message during that time that concerned me specifically, I will appreciate if the originator could send a copy to my email address directly. > > Many thanks > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > In case you missed this. Guillermo Romero wrote: > > Dear Glen: > > Thank you so much for taking the time to expand on your concepts and my comments. > > Althought I can not say I fully understand your answers; your writings over the years have being a motive to expand my curiosity, learning and comprehension of BD beyond the "how to do it and do not ask why" approach of many of the official sources. GA Guillermo, This is a very reassuring comment. While I appreciate much of what I say goes over most peoples heads, I have long worked on the 'carrot' theory. If people are provided with the extreme, they at least know it or something is there and therefore it can act as a stimulus to head towards. This has been amidst the cries of concern 'it will scare people away' by those who I see as keeping the interested and intelligent in a perpetual BD kindergarten - for whatever other reasons they might have. Steiner set us the carrot and all I wish to do is meet his vision of what Biodynamics is and can be. Just imagine if RS was afraid to speak it as he saw it. One thing I know is the organic Biodynamics most BDAs are passing off as Biodynamics, is certificate level 101. Accomodating the lowest common denominator will only keep BD at its lowest manifestation. What a waste of the opportunity of this moment. Manifestation occurs by spiritual forces being formed around a vaccum. Matter is then sucked into the vaccum. The spiritual forces can be accumulated and formed by our ability to imagine. If there was not clouds and stars to give us a sense of other realities being possible, we might easily believe the Earth is all there is in Creation. If nothing else I am pleased to be a comet flashing by suggesting there is MORE, than the bland gruel I see presented as BD in NZ. This vaccum phase of creation is consciously percieved at the state RS called the "Solid Land" and I call 'Persephone'. It is the next stage beyond Pluto -The Sharmanic state or RSs Spirit Man, and is the first level of full spiritual consciousness we commonly call enlightenment. Nevertheless we create spiritual vaccums all the time unconsciously when we imagine or concentrate. There is a wonderful piece by RS that follows on from JTs quote in his Astrality piece, indicating this same vaccum process arises as part of our digestion of food. Essentially he is saying that in digestion our metabolic system breaks down the substance and extracts the etheric forces from that food. In doing so a etheric 'pattern' of that food is formed. These etheric forces then move up to our head region were a negative vaccum image of that pattern arises. It is into this vaccum that the Terrestrial forces (of lecture 8) are drawn. In poisonous plants IU the etheric forces are made more rigid by the increased Astrality, so that when we try to digest the plant our etheric forces can not overcome the increased astrality so a more rigid form remains in our metabolic system. This in turn mirrors a more rigid vaccum form in our head. In RS example he was talking about using poisonous plants as medicines and so a small amount of this rigid form, of henbane for example will help to order the scattered or dreamy consciousness of a Neptune inflicted individual. He does not talk about what happens in the case of poisoning. I imagine this astral dominate vaccum is so strong a being that it attracts an intense amount of Terrestrial forces -which I have indicated are internalised cosmic and world Astrality. This astral 'invasion' becomes so strong that the Ego is pushed out and the etheric forces we need for life are consumed leading to all the symptoms of poisoning. > > I only wish I could have the energy and dharma required to develop the rishi like capacities, so that this realities unfolded naturaly. Some how I know that the full comprehension of the suttle world would only come this way and not throught the rational-intelectual effort. But at this point it is most all I have and I thank you for your help. The path to Persephone starts with the Chiron doorway of the arhhh experience that there is more beyond the physical, (RS 1st guardian of the threshold); which opensthe door to the Uranus state of Collective Unconcious thinking (RS imagination) where we can conceptualise about the spirit - pretty much what we are doing here on BDNOW; which leads to the Neptune state of Coll. UnCons. feeling (RS Inspiration) where we can mystically percieve the astrality & spirit through our feelings - a more passive phase of beginning to experience it rather than trying to conceptualise about it and achieved through relaxing and letting the images float around, by allowing your experiences, impressions and imagination to 'stew', peppered by but not constrained by your Uranus concepts. Here an experience of and connection with the 'cosmic flow' develops; which simaltaneously leads to the Pluto state of the Coll. Uncons. Will (RS Spirit Man) where the spiritual world imposes itself onto us more physically yet still unconsciously, at first. It is through becoming conscious of these spiritual forces and how they are different from the Astrality, yet how they both impact on matter (through the sharmanic journey) and how we can and must dance with them, that we reach Charon (RS 2nd guardian of the threshold) who is the gatekeeper to the Spiritlands and there stands Persephone, followed by two more states of Vulcan and Apollo (Sun). Interestingly this process does not have to be linear as I have described it, but bits of each can occur similtaneously. So the less preconceived ideas you have the better. Which is the joke about the Uranus phase. Our modern society has to think and conceptualise about things, which can easily hold us away from recognising the experience when we meet it. So Uranus is helpful and dangerous. While we can develop a road map of the spirit, at some point we have to abandon it and rely 100% on our other senses of intutition and faith. All esoteric texts are just a Uranian attempt at providing road markers which are OK till you reach Neptunes ocean edge and the physical marker bouys become fewer, while the inner collective unconcious impulses become louder and more frequent, for those sensitive to them. It is when we become more familiar with the unmanifest and realise we can become a creative influence on it, as part of it, that we are in the last half of Plutos territory. So as much as you try and conceptualise my and others words and pictures please most of all relax, feel, imagine and dream. Let the words prod and then let them float around your experiences, bringing gentle recognitions as you 'see' things for yourself. There is no where to go to 'learn' this. You have it with you, around you and in you now, all you really need to do is relax and experience as your 'willingness' creates a vaccum which will suck what is appropriate at the time, to you. Thank you for the opportunity to create a few road markers cheers GA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 26 18:14:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA29913 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 18:14:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10140; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 18:00:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10041 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 17:58:30 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id hQFGa05986 (3928) for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 17:58:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8b3de76c.24a6a6f7@aol.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 17:58:15 EDT Subject: rock fertilizers To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1206 has anyone used any rock fertilizers, in particular Azomite or NatraMin? IF so, what were the resulsts from using them? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jun 26 18:18:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA29978 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 18:18:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10440; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 18:06:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10323 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 18:03:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d161.infoserve.net [199.175.157.161]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA13855 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 15:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <005a01bec020$3fc64f00$a19dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: OFF/ GEN6-25 Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 15:03:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1207 GE soybeans seem to contain less phytoestrogens. Not sure that is good or bad. M. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Saturday, June 26, 1999 11:32 AM Subject: GEN6-25 >Here is a scientific article study showing the genetically engineered >soybeans are biochemically different in composition from natural varieties. > >........ > >Alterations in Clinically Important Phytoestrogens in Genetically Modified, >Herbicide-Tolerant Soybeans > >(Copyright © Journal of Medicinal Food, (Vol 1., no. 4, 1999) in press, >Maryanne Liebert Publishers) > >Marc A. Lappé, Ph.D., Center for Ethics and Toxics, Gualala CA E. >Britt Bailey, M.A., Center for Ethics and Toxics, Gualala, CA >Chandra Childress, M.S., Children s Hospital Medical Center, Cincinnati, OH >Kenneth D.R. Setchell, Ph.D., Children s Hospital Medical Center, >Cincinnati, OH > >Abstract >The growing clinical interest and use of soybean-based food products or >extracts to increase dietary phytoestrogen intake makes the precise >composition of the key biologically active ingredients of soybeans, notably >genistin and daidzin of substantial medical interest. > >Conventional soybeans are increasingly being replaced by genetically >modified varieties. We analyzed the phytoestrogen concentrations in two >varieties of genetically modified herbicide tolerant soybeans and their >isogenic conventional counterparts grown under similar conditions. > >An overall reduction in phytoestrogen levels of 12-14 percent was observed >in the genetically altered soybean strains. Most of this reduction was >attributable to reductions in genistin and to a lesser extent daidzin >levels, which were significantly lower in modified compared to conventional >soybeans in both strains. Significant sample to sample variability in >these two phytoestrogens, but not glycitin, was evident in different >batches of genetically altered soybeans. > >Given the high biological potency of isoflavones and their metabolic >conversion products, these data suggest genetically modified soybeans may >be less potent sources of clinically relevant phytoestrogens than their >conventional precursors. These observations, if confirmed in other soybean >varieties, heighten the importance of establishing baselines of expected >isoflavone levels in transgenic and conventional soy products to ensure >uniformity of clinical results. Disclosure of the origins and isoflavone >composition of soy food products would be a valuable adjunct to clinical >decision-making. > >......... > >I recently sent out a list of GE website. Here is one that I omitted by mistake > >http://www.sage-intl.org Students for Alternatives to Genetic >Engineering (S.A.G.E.) > >....... > >Thanks to MichaelP for posting this: > >INDEPENDENT (London ) June 26 > >By Stephen Castle in Brussels > >TOUGHER controls on genetically-modified organisms were agreed by Europe's >environment ministers yesterday as several countries threatened to block >new applications from bio-tech companies until the regulations are in place. > >In a marathon negotiating session which ended after 20 hours at 5.30am, >ministers rejected calls from France for a formal moratorium on new GM >applications, after British objections that such as move would be illegal. > >However France, Italy, Greece, Denmark and Luxembourg made clear that they >will form a blocking minority if further licences are sought between now >and the date at which the new regime comes into force. With the measures >requiring approval from the European Parliament, that will probably not be >until 2002. > >A spokesman for the European Commission, which has not granted an approval >for more than a year, conceded that none are likely in the near future, >although 11 applications from seven member states are in the pipeline. "For >the last year it has not been possible to reach a qualified majority of >member states," he said, "after the council meeting yesterday the chances >of having a new release approved have not improved." > >Diplomats argue that the current, de facto, moratorium will continue, even >if there has been no formal declaration. One argued: "There will be a >moratorium but, clearly, member states cannot say: 'we are not going to >apply the law.'" > >The declaration of war on GM applications from a range of countries is >likely to strain transatlantic trade relations, and anger bio-tech >companies such as Monsanto, which has been in the forefront of gene >manipulation. > >The ministers agreed to update the existing directive 90/220, including a >new regime to continue monitoring GM foods once they come onto the market. >They will have to have new "risk assessment" rules will be introduced to >monitor scientific evidence. > >Products containing more than a certain percentage of genetically altered >ingredients will have to bear a label that reads: "This product contains >genetically modified organisms.'' > >All new GM plants and seeds approved for sale will have to apply for >re-approval after 10 years, scrapping permanent consent currently available. > >Environment minister Michael Meacher said: "No-one can now and in the >future seriously argue that the regulatory procedures are not tight, >comprehensive and balanced and in my opinion very effective." > >........... > >International Trade Reporter / Volume 16 Number 24 >Wednesday, June 16, 1999 Page 1006 ISSN 1523-2816 World News > >WTO: U.S., Canada Lodge Complaints Over Rapid Rise in Genetic Labeling >Measures > >GENEVA--The United States and Canada expressed concerns to the World Trade >Organization about the increased use of mandatory labeling measures for >genetically modified foods. > >U.S. officials told a June 11 meeting of the WTO's Committee on Technical >Barriers to Trade that five new GMO-related measures have been adopted by >countries in the first five months of 1999 alone, compared with five for >all of 1997-98 and only one during 1995-96. > >Canada complained about recent measures proposed by the governments of >Australia and New Zealand on labeling requirements for genetically modified >foods, measures that Canada claims will apply to foods that are no >different, essentially, from their conventional counterparts. > >....... > >Note: Our website http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic/geindex.html, has been >selected by StudyWeb as one of the best educational resources on the Web. >StudyWeb is one of the Internet's premier sites for educational resources >for students and teachers. Soon, one will be able to view this site in the >Science:Biology:Genetics Resources:Engineering section of StudyWeb, which >is at http://www.studyweb.com > >...... > >The Guardian (Charlottetown, PEI, Canada) >Fri 25 Jun 1999 >Page A4 >BY Ron Ryder > >Genetically altered food making headway > >While agribusiness has fixed its gaze on biotechnology as the route to more >profitable farming, consumers are kept blindfolded to >genetically-manipulated foods showing up on store shelves. >George McRobie, a British economist and environmental advocate, spoke at >UPEI Tuesday to raise a warning that scientifically-altered foodstuffs are >becoming pervasive in North American farming. > >He said Britons, and Europeans in general, have been very active in >opposing the introduction of genetically modified materials in agriculture. >But in North America the manipulated foods are making headway into the >consumer's diet -- unlabeled, and McRobie argued, insufficiently tested. > >He said America's Food and Drug Administration and Environment Protection >Agency are unwilling or unable to thoroughly regulate or research modified >foods, relying on the notion that a potato with altered genes is still a >potato and not a product that requires vigorous testing. > >"They used to have a very high reputation, but as far as genetically >modified organisms are concerned they've been getting through on the nod," >McRobie said. > >"The fact remains that most of the testing that's being done is just minimal." > >McRobie said there were 4.3 million hectares in Canada planted with >genetically engineered crops in 1998, up from 1.4 million the year before. >He said 50 per cent of the canola grown in Canada comes from genetically >engineered seed, but products from those seeds and conventionally-bred >canola are not kept separate before entry into the market. > >He said there are open, unanswered questions about genetic engineering that >have to be satisfied. McRobie said nobody can tell what effect the new >plants may have on the environment, whether pest-resistant plants will help >produce more vigorous pests and whether the genetic alterations will >produce mutations that go beyond the aims of the original engineering. > >McRobie said the main effect of engineered crops will be to make farmers >dependent on the inventors of those crops, while its benefits are open to >debate. > >"There is no good reason why we should go out and eat genetically altered >foods when we have alternatives," he said. >In Britain, grocery chains have decided not to use genetically-altered >material, he said. > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jun 27 12:01:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10602 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 12:01:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06602; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 11:47:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06488 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 11:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.3.122]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sun, 27 Jun 1999 16:45:08 +0100 Message-ID: <37764662.CBA@cwcom.net> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 16:42:26 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: re New virus References: <005101bebfed$957b6940$959dafc7@333> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1208 Michael Roboz - You wondered whether this was another virus hoax, but I guess that ExploreZip is genuine: it was reported on a full page of New Scientist magazine and was the subject of their opening editorial page, too - their interest being that the virus was apparently constructed from instructions downloaded from a website (which, of course, they didn't identify) and thus released by a malicious amateur rather than a genuine hacker (hackers are reported to have been distancing themselves from virus creation recently). Nevertheless, it does not carry the hidden Microsoft coding which enabled the authorities to catch the creator of Melissa. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jun 27 14:35:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12805 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 14:35:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12683; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 14:22:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12652 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 14:21:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.12] (max5-12.stc.net [208.210.133.12]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA03484 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 14:22:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <000701bebb83$3b7e5ec0$11c76cce@netacc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 14:10:43 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: off: suttle energies water treatment Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1209 > >Thanks Hugh: > >I hope you get the needed time soon so that you can share with us in >detail your experiences in this fascinating subject. > >I will take advantage of the opportunity to reiterat my question about a >web site or further info on the "writing pen" like device that one can >introduce in a glass of water to purify it. I even remember a distributor >for such a device, but I can not locate any info now. > >Could you or someone else in the list help me ? > >Regards Dear Guillermo, The device you mention is coming from the Grander Water treatment people. Search the web for Grander Water and you'll probably come up with something. Best, ***** See it like it is, don't let it bother you. Inhale the delicate fragrance of whatever roses bloom. Appreciate the haunting near-freshness of those summer showers that too briefly settle the dust. Oh such watery broth! How it keeps us moving in this parched and salty desert; how it sustains our glimpses of sweet mountains welling up in our minds' eyes. Think not there's only gristle on this bone. Praise God there's so much water in the soup. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jun 27 20:15:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA17038 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 20:15:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA26585; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 20:01:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26502 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 19:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip035.computer.net [140.186.252.35]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA25521 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 20:00:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 20:02:13 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: June 27, 1999 - July 03, 1999 Message-ID: <9291480E41154A8E8525679E00002BDE.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id TAA26503 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1210 Calendar of the Soul [June 27, 1999 - July 03, 1999] Thirteenth Week (June 30-July 6) And when I live in senses' heights, There flames up deep within my soul Out of the spirit's fiery worlds The gods' own world of truth: In spirit sources seek expectantly To find your spirit kinship. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Und bin ich den Sinneshöhen, So flammt in meinen Seelentiefen Aus Geistes Feuerwelten Der Götter Wahrheitswort: In Geistesgründen suche ahnend Dich geistverwandt zu finden. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+13 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jun 27 22:16:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19096 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:16:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03798; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:03:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03297 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.12] (max5-17.stc.net [208.210.133.17]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA17250 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:01:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3753AA89.4365@xtra.co.nz> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:02:37 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Preps Back to back spraying. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1211 >Hugh Lovel wrote: >> It has been found that spraying the full sequence of BD preps back-to-back >> is the most effective way of establishing a fully alive BD organism. So >> start one evening with the 500. Spray the 501 the next dawning, BD winter >> horn clay the next evening, BD summer horn clay the next dawning, BD barrel >> compost the next evening, BD 508 (horsetail decoction) the next dawning, >> and even homeopathic milk and honey the next evening and dawn. This gets it >> all out there as a package and it works. > >Dear Hugh You have mentioned back to back spraying on several >occasions. I am interested in trying it out on my intensive flower >growing operation and I have several questions please. >Do you start in desending period i.e. Prep 500 or acending period prep >501? >I do not have any clay horn ready as yet, does that matter? > >What is the purpose of homopathic milk and honey ? > >How many times would you do it this way per year? >I try to spray 500 2x in autumn and 1x in the spring and 501 1x each >spring and autumn and the barrel compost when I remember at moon opp >saturn. > >Many thanks >Tony Robinson >Rambler Flowers >Levin New Zealand Dear Tony, With back-to-back application of the preps (e.g. sequential spraying) I may start with 500 in the evening or 501 in the morning either in an ascending or a descending moon phase, as suits my circumstances and what I wish to accomplish. Do I wish to favor the development of form above ground?, below ground? do I want growth and expansion or hardening? do I need rain or do I want it to dry up? etc. Horn clay bridges between horn silica and horn manure. It is the "missing" BD prep. We should all make an effort to lay down horns of the fall to fall and fall to spring horn clays this autumn and again the spring to spring and spring to fall horn clays the following spring. What I am using, and it is wonderfully effective, is Malcolm Rae geomagnetic cards for making homeopathic potencies of the preps--including the horn clay reagents I use in radionic treatments and in broadcasting preps with cosmic pipes. This doesn't require using up my meager stock of preps, and it is something to look into. Malcolm Rae equipment and cards are available from England if you are interested. Radionically and with the cosmic pipe I can apply the preps as frequently as every day and every night, 365 days a year, with very little expense or time involved. That has a lot of merit, as this is virtually impossible with stirring and spraying. It would be too time-consuming and too expensive. The homeopathic milk and honey are an idea of Hugh Courtney's to turn one's property into something analogous to the Promised Land. The milk is applied to the soil to provide nutrition for growth, while the honey is applied to the atmosphere to enhance maturation. This is just something that may be useful as an adjunct to applications of the preps, but it is not a substitute for preps nor is it necessary as a treatment along with preps. Best, ***** See it like it is, don't let it bother you. Inhale the delicate fragrance of whatever roses bloom. Appreciate the haunting near-freshness of those summer showers that too briefly settle the dust. Oh such watery broth! How it keeps us moving in this parched and salty desert; how it sustains our glimpses of sweet mountains welling up in our minds' eyes. Think not there's only gristle on this bone. Praise God there's so much water in the soup. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jun 27 22:16:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19101 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:16:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03691; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:03:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03257 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.12] (max5-17.stc.net [208.210.133.17]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA17214 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:00:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3767F543.266B@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 20:26:34 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Preps and cosmoc pipes Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1212 >Hugh > >Would be interested in telling me/us more about the potencies of the >preps you are using in your cosmic pipe and how these change over time >are the land develops? > >Glen A Dear Glen, Doubtless I'll get to this as time permits. I've had Lorraine doing this work, and really I must go over her records to know what she's found out. Best, ***** See it like it is, don't let it bother you. Inhale the delicate fragrance of whatever roses bloom. Appreciate the haunting near-freshness of those summer showers that too briefly settle the dust. Oh such watery broth! How it keeps us moving in this parched and salty desert; how it sustains our glimpses of sweet mountains welling up in our minds' eyes. Think not there's only gristle on this bone. Praise God there's so much water in the soup. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jun 27 22:16:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19103 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:16:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03745; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:03:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03283 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:00:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.12] (max5-17.stc.net [208.210.133.17]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA17239 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:00:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <373D7577.7A34@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 21:34:04 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Study:L3 Astrality. Plants and Biodynamics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1213 >In acknowledgement of the Perigee and New Moon > >A question that has mulled around in my thoughts and images for some >time is: What is the nature and quality, or function of the Astrality in >the Biodyanmic understanding of plant growth? > >In lecture 3 we are presented with an image of the Astrality and its >relationship to Nitrogen as being a central element, which actually >drags the oxygen and etheric body into contact with the physical body. >Yet in lecture seven and elsewhere we are presented with a picture of >the Astrality not actually entering the plant, other than in poisionous >plant and legumes. This leaves us with the image of the plant just >touching the Astrality at flowering. Likewise we are presented with much >information about plant growth being the result of the four ethers, with >little or no reference to the working of Astrality in relation to the >ethers. Our conversations seem to happily accept that the ego is drawn >into the soil via the silica winter process and cow manure and that from >the soil it then works upwards through the upright stem formation to >finally be present in seed formation, yet the Astrality does not appear >to be understood or discussed in the same manner. > >Just as we had an apparent contradiction arising between lectures 2 and >6 over the workings of the planets, do we have another one in lectures 3 >and 7 over the working of the Astrality? > >Can anyone shed some light on this? > >Many thanks >Glen Atkinson. Dear Glen, et. al., In lecture three of the agriculture course there is an exposition of how the astrality (via nitrogen) brings spirit (hydrogen) and oxygen (ether) into combination with carbon (ego). Insofar as identity (ego) is expressed as form in carbon compounds nitrogen is responsible for its development. We can see this in the DNA and RNA compounds providing the means for the patterning of organic chemistry in plants, animals and human beings. It doesn't happen otherwise. Always the physical vehicle of the astrality (nitrogen) is required for the oxygen and hydrogen to enter into combination with carbon so that the elaborate forms of living organisms develop. In plants these egoic form forces are provided by carbon but there is no conscious sense of identity embodied in the plant. With animals, though consciousness is embodied, there is still no self-awareness, only outward awareness of the identies of other things. In human beings there is the first EMBODIMENT of ego, as we are aware of ourselves as aware beings and thus we establish ourselves as independent identities. Of course, it is this advancement that lays us open to the seduction of Lucifer, who thought because of his brillant egoity that he could go it alone and he didn't need to conform to any divine plan or harmonize with the manifestations of the great universal imaginations where realities are shared by all and a cohesive creation exists. Regardless of the seductions of Lucifer, however, there must always be the astral (nitrogen) bridge for spirit (hydrogen) and life (oxygen) to enter into form (carbon). This manifests in the solar system, (as you have so aptly pointed out in the past) via the lime and silica streams of the inner and outer planets orchestrated and integrated by the Sun itself. That is, it is the ever changing relationships of the Sun, Moon and planets against the starry background that channel the astral forces so important to the manifestations of life as we know it. Lecture three is a wonderfully poetic exposition on this subject (the significance of nitrogen). We can gain a lot of insight into this matter by following the spoor of nitrogen with our noses (via smell) and even moreso by means of meditation (which is also described in this lecture). Incidentally, those plants with fine aromas are not generally poisonous and are not examples of the astrality penetrating to deeply into the plant. When you get to cases where the astrality penetrates so deeply as to become poisonous, as in foxglove, hemlock (the umbellifer), poisonous mushrooms such as Amanita phaliodes, curare, etc. there may be a bitter taste, but there generally is very little smell. Mints, sages, basils, celery, anise, fennel, etc. with their fine smells are quite safe to eat. I believe that generally the fact that fine aromas are given off is an indication that the astrality has NOT penetrated too deeply into the plant. Best, ***** See it like it is, don't let it bother you. Inhale the delicate fragrance of whatever roses bloom. Appreciate the haunting near-freshness of those summer showers that too briefly settle the dust. Oh such watery broth! How it keeps us moving in this parched and salty desert; how it sustains our glimpses of sweet mountains welling up in our minds' eyes. Think not there's only gristle on this bone. Praise God there's so much water in the soup. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 28 01:09:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA23376 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 01:09:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA12397; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 00:55:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA12287 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 00:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from think-pad-701c (pm3bky2-132-14.intrepid.net [209.190.132.14]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA10016 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 00:53:50 -0400 Message-ID: <3776F7C0.6780@intrepid.net> Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 00:19:12 -0400 From: Bobbie Rohn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Morgan Awards X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: off: suttle energies water treatment References: <000701bebb83$3b7e5ec0$11c76cce@netacc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1214 Hugh Lovel wrote: > > > > >Thanks Hugh: > > > >I hope you get the needed time soon so that you can share with us in > >detail your experiences in this fascinating subject. > > > >I will take advantage of the opportunity to reiterat my question about a > >web site or further info on the "writing pen" like device that one can > >introduce in a glass of water to purify it. I even remember a distributor > >for such a device, but I can not locate any info now. > > > >Could you or someone else in the list help me ? > > > >Regards > > Dear Guillermo, > > The device you mention is coming from the Grander Water treatment people. > Search the web for Grander Water and you'll probably come up with something. > > Best, > > ***** > > See it like it is, don't let it bother you. > Inhale the delicate fragrance of whatever roses bloom. > Appreciate the haunting near-freshness of those summer showers > that too briefly settle the dust. > > Oh such watery broth! > How it keeps us moving in this parched and salty desert; > how it sustains our glimpses of sweet mountains > welling up in our minds' eyes. > > Think not there's only gristle on this bone. > Praise God there's so much water in the soup. > > Hugh Lovel > 8475 Dockery Road > Blairsville, Georgia 30512 This device you're looking for is called a Penergizer and has about the size and appearance of a fountain pen. I don't have Grander's e-mail since I obtained the information from guy@twelvestar.com. I believe his website is www.twelvestar.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 28 02:30:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA24256 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 02:30:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA14489; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 02:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA14381 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 02:12:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d146.infoserve.net [199.175.157.146]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA14336 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 23:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002801bec12d$c8a072c0$929dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw:OFF/ New virus Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 23:16:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01BEC0F3.1B783040" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1215 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BEC0F3.1B783040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: John Zuk To: Michael Roboz Date: Sunday, June 27, 1999 10:52 PM Subject: Re: New virus To detect and wipe out Worm.Explorerzip virus. You can get info and a = free program to detect it from http://www.sarc.com/avcenter/kill_ez.html Thanks ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BEC0F3.1B783040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 John Zuk <jazuk@bc.sympatico.ca>
To:=20 Michael Roboz <mroboz@infoserve.net>
D= ate:=20 Sunday, June 27, 1999 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: New=20 virus

To detect and = wipe out=20 Worm.Explorerzip virus. You can get info and a free program to detect = it=20 from
http://www.sarc.com/av= center/kill_ez.html
 
Thanks
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BEC0F3.1B783040-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 28 04:37:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA25967 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:37:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA17845; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:23:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA17806 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:22:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-006.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.106]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA11693 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:34:26 +1200 Message-ID: <011301bec13d$51effa00$6af631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: Its all new to me too!!!! (The Biodynam calendar) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:07:47 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1216 Dera Tony, I had a go at putting it together on the computor, using the accurate astronomical data to draw the sun curve. It was quite exciting to see the mathematically exact picture. I wouldnt have done it if you hadnt suggested it! To date it has been merely freehand notes to be drwn on a blackboard. Im working on the moon data now. I forgot to mention the inclusion of soil temperatures. Here (to my mind) is the first physical expression of the abstract/mathematical concept of planetary motion, the primary phenonema of warmth. the grass growth curve expresses (probably) the light and etheric evolution/emancipation/deviation- havent quite thought that part out clearly in those terms yet because the original purpose was to describe the calendar, the principle of emancipation (chap 1) and animal health as a dynamic model of the whole. I now have available to me, but not yet in my posession these two curves as recorded over two years on BD farms, therefore the growth curve is not influenced by N and P applications (the original material was from local Dairy Company monitoring) but relates more directly to cosmic influences. THerefore it may take a lttle while to complete, but you have spurred me on now, so just give me a few more weeks. It is very gracious to consider payment for such work. Howver it is the result of work paid for by Taruna, and could never have been generated without the network of friendships and information and enthusiasm of so many BD people here and overseas, and the impulse such thoughts bring. I am happy to share it with others as I have surely benefited from others. >From what I have gleaned from various postings on this list I gather you are in Wales? If that is so, then there will have been some celebrating in the valleys and towns this weekend...well done it was great to see the Dragon breathing fire again! Cheers Gareth Bodle . -----Original Message----- From: Tony Nelson-Smith To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, 24 June 1999 03:51 AM Subject: Re: Its all new to me too!!!! (The Biodynam calendar) >Gareth - Your calendar sounds fascinating. Is there any chance that we >could share it ? If it forms part of a course, I'd be glad to pay a >reasonable sum for a copy, perhaps with a little explanatory text (no >reason why the good guys should do everything for free): or, if you're >willing, could we ask Alan to put it up on his website, or send it out >on BDNow! as an attachment ? Regards, Tony N-S. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 28 05:05:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA26253 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 05:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA18627; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:52:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA18562 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:49:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.83] ("port 2049"@[148.233.78.83]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FE1007056ZLEC@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:43:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 17:53:41 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: off: suttle energies water treatment In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <000701bebb83$3b7e5ec0$11c76cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1217 >> >>Thanks Hugh: >> >>I hope you get the needed time soon so that you can share with us in >>detail your experiences in this fascinating subject. >> >>I will take advantage of the opportunity to reiterat my question about a >>web site or further info on the "writing pen" like device that one can >>introduce in a glass of water to purify it. I even remember a distributor >>for such a device, but I can not locate any info now. >> >>Could you or someone else in the list help me ? >> >>Regards > > >Dear Guillermo, > >The device you mention is coming from the Grander Water treatment people. >Search the web for Grander Water and you'll probably come up with something. > >Best, > >***** Thanks Hugh:: With the help from Jenni Muir, I was able to retrieve the info on living water and Johann Grandier that I was searching for. This "penenergizer" system appears to be based on the same principles of the Sosei isn't ?, I mean there is a message written inside and an energetized water and metal transmits "its order" to the water to be treated. Have you look into this stuff ? Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 28 05:05:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA26263 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 05:05:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA18656; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA18568 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.83] ("port 2049"@[148.233.78.83]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FE1007056ZLEC@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:43:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 19:39:11 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: off: sorry I was cut off for three days In-reply-to: <37754294.3C86@xtra.co.nz> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1218 > >Thank you for the opportunity to create a few road markers > >cheers > >GA Thanks to you again dear Glen. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 28 07:33:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA27545 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:33:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA21606; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:18:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21506 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:14:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.12] (max5-43.stc.net [208.210.133.43]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA13472 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:15:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <000701bebb83$3b7e5ec0$11c76cce@netacc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:10:55 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: off: suttle energies water treatment Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1219 >Thanks Hugh:: > >With the help from Jenni Muir, I was able to retrieve the info on living >water and Johann Grandier that I was searching for. > >This "penenergizer" system appears to be based on the same principles of >the Sosei isn't ?, I mean there is a message written inside and an >energetized water and metal transmits "its order" to the water to be >treated. > >Have you look into this stuff ? > >Regards > > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO Dear Guillermo, Sosei Water is a far more sophisticated process than the Penergizer. The Penergizer contains a bit of Grander's processed water and swirling it in the glass brings the water in the glass up to some measure of likeness to Grander Water. Grander says he gets his water from an old copper mine in the alps and he has a magnet motor process that energizes it. There are no magnets in the Sosei process. Grander's process is a proprietary secret (which I'm shy of), whereas the Sosei process is not such and a good engineer could probably copy it (which I find very endearing). But probably no place is there more difference between the two as there is with their marketing strategies. Certainly both are enhanced waters. Best, ***** See it like it is, don't let it bother you. Inhale the delicate fragrance of whatever roses bloom. Appreciate the haunting near-freshness of those summer showers that too briefly settle the dust. Oh such watery broth! How it keeps us moving in this parched and salty desert; how it sustains our glimpses of sweet mountains welling up in our minds' eyes. Think not there's only gristle on this bone. Praise God there's so much water in the soup. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 28 11:15:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01911 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:15:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29983; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:46:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29822 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp63.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.163]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA23774 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:39:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00b801bec174$3ea1a2a0$a34b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: Subject: Off: subtle energies water treatment Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:41:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1220 All this wonderful water talk! Seems appropriate that the resident Cancer would be facilitating such discussion! For your interest, enlightenment, entertainment or whatever function it serves, below is an interesting article from http://www.transformacomm.com/water/watertalk.htm regarding more magic water. How interesting that healing, via the water element, is coming into our consciousness from different sources. Would be really interesting to have samples of each & run experiments... Love Julie Mother Earth - The New Consciousness and Sacred Water A Talk presented by Drunvalo Melchezidek Introduction Drunvalo Melchezidek gave this talk on May 1st '99 at the Wesak '99 celebration help at Mount Shasta. The message has such an importance that the word needs to go out there and be spread to all. If the version of the document has been mangled or has parts missing due to multiple forwarding, you can find the original at http://www.transformacomm.com/ in both HTML and TXT (ASCII) format. Please see the bottom of this document for additional notes. Summary of Talk Some Sufi masters in Turkey who had been doing powerful Zikhr chants have presented to the world a water that appears to be alive and have God-consciousness. This water has different effects on different things. It seems to have an optimal effect on whatever it touches. They used it in one of the most polluted bays in the world... dark with black bubbles. It became totally clear within a few days. Unfortunately the channels coming into the bay continue to pollute it. Drunvalo Melchezidek had just come from a meeting with FBI, CIA, military officials, and top corporation scientists in Washington where they demonstrated this water in action. It cleared away the most disgusting pollution in glass containers (sewage, oil, chemicals) very quickly with only a teaspoon of the water. They also did experiments with huge ponds of water with the same results. This water also put out chemical and petrochemical fires and methane fires a t garbage fill sites that had not been successfully put out before... and the fires would not restart afterwards. It also works the same on forest fires. Some environmental scientists at the meeting said that if a miracle like this had not come along, the earth would be dead within 3 years due to the pollution. The best news is that the governments are willing to allow this water to be used to clear the planet's pollution. This water is called super-ionized water. A company out of Istanbul, Turkey has been started by Ihan Doyuk called Perfect Science. A 48 million-dollar plant has been built in Turkey to produce 100,000 tons of this water a day. The water seems to have many more uses. Drunvalo could not say more due to a confidentiality agreement he had signed. He could not tell us what it does to human bodies but he did say that it may be the most interesting use of the water of all. Complete Transcript of the Talk (Ed: If you want to go directly into the heart of the presentation, skip to Part II) Part I - Setting the stage New concepts and Ideas are coming Drunvalo: Ok. We are ready to begin now. What I am about to tell you about today is one of the more exciting things that I have seen in this world in a long time. This is brand new; you've never heard me talk about it before and it is just beginning in the planet right now. As I see it, we are never going to be the same after this is understood and it is actually really lived in this world. About six years ago, I was in meditation with a man called [Chichi Tad Armachid Vollites (???)], some of you know this [poet (???)]. And, in a single day, he said he had to leave, that him and most of the ascended masters, not all of them, but a great deal of them, had to go on a journey to another universe to live the experience of what we are all going to live very soon, so that they could find a pathway to this new world, this new way of being. And, for about the last six years, I have been alone with the angels and he's been gone. In January of this year, the angels came in and they said that many of them are now returning in the Egyptian window which is between January 10th and January 19th. That a certain group of them was coming back, and were bringing with them the knowledge of what they'd learned over the last six years. Which, in the other dimensional levels was really hundreds and hundreds of thousands of years. And that, with their coming back, new concepts and new ideas that mankind has never known or ever even conceived of before, would now [emerge (???)] on the earth. Ideas we've never ever thought of. So, I am going to give you one of these new ideas, that has... it's new, but it is always in the universe. But we have never seen it ever before, not ever. And, I am going to call this talk, Mother Earth - The New Consciousness and Sacred Water. Laying the Groundwork I am going to talk about water. In fact, I am going to drink some right now (laughter). Water is more than we know. In order to talk about what is going on with water, I have to begin by laying out some groundwork so you can understand a larger context of what I am really talking about here. So, let's imagine ourselves coming in from space for the first time into this solar system. As we pass through all of these different planets, through the outer planets of Pluto and Neptune. As we are making our way in towards the sun, we come to this planet here, that we are on, which is unique and different from all the other ones because it is a water planet. Almost all of the surface of this planet is water. And when you come down to the surface of this planet, the beings that live here, the humans, the dogs, the cats, the trees, and all the life forms that live here, come from water, and are made of water. Our bodies are almost all water. As we live on this water planet, in water bodies, we are attracted to water. If you move through the forest and you come to a river, your heart is pulled to that place, because you can feel the life energy that is there. Water is... alive. It's more alive than we know. And I'm beginning to truly understand what the ancients have said, that the waters are living waters. There was a man named Jesus who began his ministry with baptism; baptism into water. What does that mean? What does it really mean to be baptized in the water? To explain this a little bit, I have to go a little bit mathematical in a way. In ancient times, there were five shapes, the five Platonic solids. Each one of these five Platonic solids had an element associated with them. There was the tetrahedron, the cube, the octahedron, the icosahedron, and the dodecahedron. The tetrahedron was fire. The cube was the earth. The octahedron was air. And the icosahedron was water. And the dodecahedron was prana, or ether. The icosahedron and the dodecahedron are linked together. You can't talk about one without the other. They are what are called in mathematics the duals of each other. You can create one from the other. The icosahedron, being water, was the aspect that this earth was missing since the time of Atlantis. So, the Great White Brotherhood, for the last 13,000 years, and everything that these [decided two orders (???)] have been doing has been around bringing back of the consciousness of water and prana together. Consciousness of water. It really is that simple. That is all that they've been doing. (Ed: The word "White" in this case has nothing to do with race; rather it stands for that aspect of being that includes all the colors within it and, additionally, for purity). If we look at the DNA that which encodes our information, it is made up of only the icosahedron and the dodecahedron. That's all it is. It is water and prana put together. The Christ grid that is around the earth, that we are all familiar [with (???)], that the Great White Brotherhood has been working on for 13,000 years, so that we can move into the next consciousness, is made up of an icosahedron and a dodecahedron: water and prana. (long pause) There is so much around this; there is no way I'd be able to do this in an hour. I can only just give you a little bit. I can't really give you everything here right now, but I will really do my best. All I can say is that there is something very very very special about water; especially water of a certain kind of nature that will change this world. Structured vs. Unstructured Water I will talk now about research that was done in the past around water so you can begin to get a framework to begin to discuss what's now happening in the world. In the University of Georgia, I don't know how long ago it was, it was in the early 1990s, they discovered that every cell in your body that is diseased, or that is harmed in one way or another is surrounded by something called unstructured water. Always, whatever the disease is, it's always surrounded by this unstructured water. They discovered that ever healthy cell, no matter which cell it is, is always surrounded by structured water. So, what is the difference? It is extremely simple. The only difference is in the number of electrons that are in the outer orbits. That is it! That unstructured water is missing these outer electrons. And it causes disease. And water that has these outer electrons and their shells are completed, is healthy. Water flowing through rivers and lakes in natural situations that are not polluted; that water is structured. However, water that goes through a pipe, which almost all of our water that goes into our bodies does, is unstructured. It only takes just a few feet of moving through a pipe under pressure and the water can't rotate the way that it wants to. Instead, it is forced to move in concentric rings. And these concentric rings, rip off the outer electrons and form unstructured water. We are kind of doing what they did in Rome a long time ago... like eating off of lead plates. We are drinking out of high-pressured water pipes that produces disease. There have been many people since this time, when they discovered this, when they realized, "Oh my God, we are drinking water that is killing us, what will we do about it?" Then, many many researchers that began to look for ways to quickly restructure the water. One of these was [Walter Von Gardner (???)]. He is a genius in water and probably knows more about it than anybody in the world. He used to be the head of the Walter Russell School for a long time. And he created this sort of an egg shaped glass container that if you put in water in there and certain minerals, colloidal minerals, and stir it in a certain kind of way, that this water became structured and became super alive. If you took a Kirilian photograph of the glass of water before and after. The water, before it used to literally kind of glow of white light around it. But, afterwards, here was a ball of white light about this big around the glass of water. You couldn't even see the glass it was so bright. And people were beginning to understand the difference between structured and unstructured water. After finding, they began to do research into microclusters and different kinds of water. He found that if you put magnets in a hexagonal shape, and ran water through it, it instantaneously structured the water. And so they started doing research in things like swimming pools and hot tubs. Where you could run water going through these pools, the water would not grow bacteria, because it kept it alive. However, the research we did on this when we looked at it, and was able to put it up onto our computer screens to see, like water that was structured in this way. We discovered that it didn't even look like water. It looked like acid. And we began to ask, are we doing more harm than good? Cause, we were like babies, trying to understand something that we just barely knew. And then, a group of people decided to make the water move in rotational patterns in the way it wants to, which was one of the primary keys to make a water alive again. And they found that there were 12 metals. That if you made these 12 metals in a certain way, and the water could move around them, that the water became super alive immediately, without any of this fancy stuff that [Walter Von Gardner (???)] was doing. There was some research done in California in an orange grove which was astounding! They took an orange grove that... they picked this grove because it had consistently given the same yield every year for ten years in a row. It gave two yields every year and the number of oranges was almost exactly the same. So they went there and changed these little nozzles, and they put them to feed each of the trees. That was the only change they made. And, immediately, instantaneously, it went from two yields to five yields. And those yields were 20% higher than before. All they did was sending living water into the trees. Many people have been doing research around this. I cannot bring up all of them... everything they have said and they've done. But, it's been real clear to people who are involved in water that there is something that we have forgotten, or something that we have done, that has changed things, about that idea of what water is. In 1996, I was approached by two people, one named Bob Dratch and Slim Spurling who had created a.... had taken the water from a rain cloud, right before it was going to dump water, before it was going to rain... and had taken that through something called a molecular emission scanner, put it through a special set of software, and into a computer, and then reprogrammed that, that microwave emissions into a sound which you could hear. That sound was then transmitted by an antenna, a coil that Slim made called a Harmonizer, which would projected out in the atmosphere for about 35 miles around. They did this in Denver, through the year of 1995. It actually began in 1994 and they quit in 1996. For the one single year of 1995 in Denver, they had this running, they were just simply projecting out the energy of a rain cloud. Denver became the cleanest it was in the history of their recording... ever, for one year. The moment they quit, in 1996, it became polluted again. They asked me to begin to do research in this also. In June of 1996, in Phoenix Arizona, we began to do a similar test using something called the R-2, which is certain little coils combined in a way, that act as an antenna to put out whatever waveform or vibration we wished. At that time, Phoenix was in the most polluted state it had ever been in its recorded history. They were going into a "serious" rating, and the government itself was freaked out, because they didn't know what to do. They wouldn't allow us to do the research let us say, legally, so we had to use certain laws for us to do this work without their welcome, and we did it anyway. >From September 1st of 1996 the system was running fully until May of 1998. We noticed that a city as polluted, that you could hardly breathe in, you couldn't even see more than a few blocks, in the city was so bad. In a very short time, went clear and clean and you could breathe again. That the birds and the animals came back. That the whole nature of the clouds above it changed, that the smell went away, it got clean. It became very exciting. I though that we had really found a true answer, for the world to turn itself clean of the pollution. And it did work! From September 1st of 1996 until May of 1998. Phoenix was the cleanest it has ever been in their recorded history. We had the hydrocarbons in the center of the city down to single digits and many times down to zero... not recording anything at all, it was so clean. This was encouraging, because you see, from everything I am being told from the Ascended Masters and from the angelic realms, we can't leave here until we clean up our place. It is part of our consciousness. It was our consciousness that created the earth the way and state that it is now. In a state where it is dying. And before we leave, it is our responsibility, as spiritual beings, with the awareness that is now emerging on this earth, to clean our world and to bring in back into health the way it was before. I have been working in every way I know, to fulfill this. Clustered Water Fourteen years ago, a new kind of water emerged on the earth; a water never seen before, never heard of, never known existed. This water is called clustered water. The water looks under a microscope like snowflakes. It's formed in little hexagons, little hexagonal patterns. This water is found in all babies: human babies, baby trees, baby horses. All babies are filled with clustered water. But very soon, we lose that, and it goes into structured water. And then very soon, because of the way we live in this polluted world, it begins to move into unstructured water. This is a... The research around clustered water is new. It appears to be a definite step forward in allowing consciousness inside the human body to emerge faster. Part II - The Miracle The Discovery of a New Type of Water But now, something else has happened. Something that so extraordinary... I don't even know how to actually tell you this. I'll do my best. Ten years ago... a little more I believe, there was a small group of very old Sufi masters, that were chanting Zikhr in Turkey. They are quiet, and nobody knows about them. And they have been creating something; or, allowing something to come through them that mankind has never seen. One of these men came forth from this group. He is also a Sufi master, he is 78 years old. He looks like and feels like he is about 40. You'd never know that he an older person. He gave something to the world... he just gave them some water. Some water that mankind has never seen. He said, "Here, this is for the healing of the world". They began to do research. And they found that whenever they put this water, in a polluted lake, or a polluted river, then it would immediately, within days, usually 3 or 4 days, the whole lake, the whole river would go absolutely clean, the way it was 1000 years ago. Even the sediment and everything inside there. Nobody could believe it, but they had to believe it because they could see it. But, they couldn't believe it. And they continued to do research for 10 years. In January, which happens to be exactly in the Egyptian window when the angels were telling me that something new is going to emerge on the earth, they tried to get in contact with me. But I was too busy roaming around the world. They kept trying and trying. And I kept saying "No, no, I can't do this, I don't have time". Finally, about three months ago, I still didn't have time, but I sent some of the people I work with into Florida to see if what they were saying was really true. These were people who were trained and could identify if this was something real or just an illusion. They couldn't... they got on the phone with me and they couldn't even talk. They were like children, they were so excited. They were just going, "I can't believe this, it's really real". It actually was true! The Demonstration Meeting And so I just came back from a meeting in Washington D.C., in a secret little room with the military, the Air Force, the army, the CIA, the FBI... (laughter) all those guys, about 15 high high level physicists and chemists from major corporations. This was being held in a Fortune 500 corporation. I had to sign all of these documents that I would be careful about what I say. But they are letting me say what I can say, and what I can say is good enough. They first brought two big containers of polluted water. One of them smelled like sewage. It was brown, it was yucky, and it was about as bad as you can get. And they put that there. The second one was another kind of yellowish colored brown polluted water that smelled like gasoline and oil and obviously had chemicals inside of it. And it was hard to even get your nose into that either. They put them up high, and Mr. Ihan Doyuk said, "Now this is like a lake". And he took about a teaspoonful, which he said was way more than was needed but they did that so that it would go faster, he put a little teaspoonful of water in there and stepped back so that there would be no influence. And, very slowly, over two hours, we watched both of these waters, the pollution slowly head towards the bottom. What was above was the cleanest, clearest water you could imagine, until they were all the way down at the bottom. And there was nothing, even the sediment and everything was down to absolutely clear water. This is really real! He then took a little goldfish and he put it inside there so that it could swim around to show that if there were to be any chemicals or anything in there it would die. And after three hours, this little fish was still swimming. What is interesting... they called me up. The head of this whole project, called me up the next day and said, "You won't believe it. They took the fish out of the water and put it back into the aquarium downstairs and when they came in the next morning, the whole aquarium was clean" (laughter). It totally went clean and clear. They took pure motor oil right out of the can, popped the lid, poured it with another whole bunch of oil like this, put about 3 or 4 drops of water and shook it up. Instantaneously, within 3 seconds, the motor oil no longer existed on the earth. Instead, it was proteins and amino acids... that are fish food. Instantaneously! This is an interesting analogy because oil is the end product of millions of years of life. It is the end, it is black, it is the end. And when it comes in contact with this water, it immediately turns white and becomes proteins and amino acids; the beginning of life. Super-ionized Water What is this water? All it is, is water with 3 extra electrons on the outer orbits. It is called super-ionized water. You're going to hear about it. There is no doubt! Super-ionized water is... Again, all the scientists and the physicists and the chemists of the world have been studying this for the past few years who have been keeping it secret. Not one of them, with all their credentials and everything, even though they can see it happen, cannot explain to you how it is happening. They don't know! They can't figure it out. On top of this, by studying the reaction, and there is some things I can't tell you, it appears as though this water is consciousness, it is alive and it knows what it's doing! It knows exactly what it's doing because it... it will go into one reaction, one chemical reaction and do one thing, and turn another reaction with a similar kind of compound, and do something else that could only have been done by consciousness. You know that something is different about this water, because if you take a light bulb, an ordinary light bulb, and you cut the wire so that if you put the two wires together the light bulb will go on. If you stick those two wires in water which is a dielectric, nothing happens, it is like an unlit light bulb. But if you put the wires in super-ionized water, the light bulb comes on. No one has ever seen that before. That is impossible by everything that we know. And there is a flow of electrical energy through the water, that they are describing as liquid electrons. This came from Sufi teachers and masters as a gift to the world. If you could only know what I know, if you could only see what I have seen. Cleaning up of Izmit Bay They went into Izmit Bay in Istanbul in Turkey. (Ed: In the talk, he mentions Izmir Bay, which is far from Istanbul and is still polluted. Izmit Bay which is 45 minutes from Istanbul is the one which has gone clean and where fish have returned) Izmit Bay is so polluted. It is the most polluted body of water on the planet. It looks like pure oil. It is black. It is not water anymore. It is just black oil. And they took these two huge tanks, like swimming pools and they filled it up with this black water. One was the control and one was the experiment. And they took just a couple of gallons of this water, in these hundreds and hundreds of thousands of gallons of this garbage water. It was so bad that it was forming black bubbles on the surface. In less than a few hours, the pool went crystal clear. It was clean. They then went to Izmit Bay, and the entire bay went clean, the whole thing. But they can't keep it that way because it got canals as big as this room (Ed: the talk was giving in a school gymnasium) with garbage being pumped into the bay constantly which they are going to have to deal with if they want to keep it that way. The other interesting thing about this is no matter what the polluted water is, no matter what is in it, it turns it to this crystal clean pure water and even balances the pH perfectly to 7, no matter what it is, no matter what you started with. He has done it some many times now he doesn't even have to look. He sticks the paper and says, "Look, it is 7" without even thinking because it automatically does it. The consciousness knows exactly what to do in that system and how to convert it back into it. Also Works on Land and Soil It is not only in water, does the water work, but the water works on the earth also, and in the soil. They showed in the videos and in the actual [room (???)] they are talking about where you can take garbage, huge garbage dumps, that are constantly burning methane, they can't stop the burning cause it keeps burning... they can spray this water on the garbage dumps and instantaneously, everything is transformed. All of the hydrocarbons in there switch, turn over into fertilizer, and are organic in nature, they have no chemicals in it whatsoever even though they came from chemicals. All of the smell of the garbage dump is gone, instantaneously at the snap of a finger. It smells like roses. It smells clean again. The fires are immediately put out and can't start again. They showed on there that in these places were all of these toxic stuff were put and everything that within days, plants and vegetables start growing out of these toxic dumps. This is really real. It's no kidding, it's really real. It's hard to imagine that something can emerge under the earth like this, but it actually happens. Also Many Other Side Effects There are many many side effects that are super positive and most of these they won't let me talk to you about because the financial status quo will be rocked to the core. There are things that it does that water can't do, but it does, right before their eyes, time and time again. It has in impact on us, and will have an impact on us that, we can't quite imagine right now. Just to give you one of the side effects that they are going to let out, I'm only going to talk about one of them. It is about fires, forest fires, or oil fires, or any kind of fires, especially gasoline and oil which are almost impossible to put out. When the water comes into contact with these fires, it instantaneously puts them out, just like that. And you can't relight them. You can throw matches back on to them, on the gasoline, immediately, and it won't relight because it changes the gasoline into something else that can't burn. And so, for forest fires, if they spray it on burning forest fires, it instantly will put the fire out. And on living trees, which is super good for the tree, that tree will not be able to burn for hours afterwards. So, it puts the fire out immediately, instantly. This is one of the side effects of this new water, that we... I really wish I could tell you what is going to come after this (laughter). Question: (Could not be heard on the tape) Drunvalo: I can't... I can't tell you yet. They won't let me. I can't. But it's too great! (laughter) This is too good! Governments Are Doing Tests So we're now, all of the... right now, Russia and 8 other major countries of the world, are now doing major research on this all over. They're, all over the world, secretly putting this in polluted lakes and rivers... that are just... pfttt... going clean right before our eyes. It is just amazing. You can take a bay, like San Francisco bay, and in 4 days you will able to see 60 feet into the water, as though you were looking through water like this (Ed: Held up a glass of drinking water). And in two months, it will go all the way down even into the deep yucky sediment below and turn it into proteins and amino acids and be crystal clear and clean. In two months! And this is where we are at. This is really real. It's incredible! (Clapping and cheering) The Water Will Be Allowed to Be Released What is even greater is that the world's governments are going to allow this to happen! (Clapping and cheering) Right before I was speaking, I was talking to the United States Air Force, that could stop something like this very quickly for different reasons. They want it to happen! They want this to come out! And so, the various countries that we are talking to around the world. The United Nations is involved with this also. Nobody can believe it. They don't know what to say about it. It's a miracle, a planetary miracle happening right before us, right now! Question: When? Drunvalo: It's... (laughter) happening. Right now, Turkey was so excited about this as a country that they built a 48 million-dollar installation to create this water. And they can now ship 100,000 tons of it a day anywhere in the world and they are preparing to do this. The countries now all over that we are talking to, and wants to be involved, they are looking at it, they are cautiously wanting it, but they don't know how to proceed because nobody can explain it (laughter). No chemist in the world can explain how this is doing this. You can't take oil and water and mix them together. Oil and water don't mix. But super-ionized water does. It mixes instantaneously. So, something new has emerged on the earth. And this is really important I feel because as you all know, I am deeply connected with the [Talsi (???)] Indians and the Hopi Indians and the Hopi prophecy. And the Hopi prophecy says that right before we move into the next level, to the fifth world from their point of view, the fourth dimension from our point of view, they talk about how the whole world comes clean and clear the way it was thousands and thousands of years ago. The oceans, the rivers, the skies, everything. And we will have this clean world. And it is the seeing of this world going clean, in a very rapid period of time that inspires the world to let go of their pain and all that they have... (Clapping and cheering) The Word Must Go Out And so, after having said that, there are certain corporations in this world that are aware of this that don't want to see this happen. Mostly oil companies, and I can't tell you why (laughter) but we can't let this go from our memory. Do all of the research you can. The name of the company that is forming this is called Perfect Science out of Istanbul Turkey. The man's name is Ihan Doyuk. I... H... A... N... His last name is D... O... Y... U... K..., Doyuk. Question: Is he on the Internet? Drunvalo: He is not on the Internet. He is just a humble, little beautiful person that has discovered something that he is giving to the world. He is not truly a scientist, he is Sufi! But he's now put on a suit, he's working with the governments of the world, and he's attempting to bring this out to the world. It will come out because, what you are really looking at is a very very high level of consciousness emerging from this water. The Sufis themselves, when they talk about it, they won't talk about it as "the water". He talks about it "he moves through the chemical reactions", "he does this", and "he does that". He is referring to the nature of the consciousness in the water. This is the beginning of what I knew would take place. I am very honored to be able to bring this to you. I really, really am. (Clapping, cheering, whistling) The Baptism of the Planet Do you know that baptism, in the Christian way of seeing baptism, you can only be baptized once, and it removes all sins. After that, you have to deal with each sin on your own (laughter). That is the fun part. We are about to see the same thing. Over the next twelve months, fourteen months or so, we are going to see the world go clean... and it is going to be like baptism of the whole world. And then, from then on end, our responsibility will be every time we do something, we will have to remember who we are, and where we came from, and what this is really all about, which is love. It is not about hate and anger and fear. And so... Question: Can you use it in the cars? Drunvalo: Can you use it in your cars? I can't answer that. (laughter) Probably most of the things you will ask me I will probably have to give the same answer. They have really restricted me because this thing is like a miracle. It does so m... Everything it comes in contact with, everything, it turns it around, and turns it into a positive situation, and creates something that is positive for the world. It is a consciousness alive in water. Question: Can you buy it? Drunvalo: Can you buy it? It is not for sale yet. But some day perhaps. Right now this is a governmental level thing that is going on. It really is up to the world's governments whether or not they will let this out or not. We are working with Australia, we are going to do Australia and clean up Sydney harbor and all of this stuff. We are now renegotiating with that government how to do that. We are going to renegotiate with all of our contracts in the world that we... Instead of using waveforms we are going to directly in... To clean the bay, all we do is just spray the bay with this water and wait two months. That it is all over. Same thing with rivers and lakes and everything else. I wish I could tell you the rest (laughter), but I can't. So, if there is any... I'll take about two or three more questions if you can yell them out. Question: What does it do to human bodies? Drunvalo: I can't tell you about that one (laughter). But that might be the most interesting one of all. Question: Does it apply to nuclear waste? Drunvalo: Yes it does (clapping and a collective sigh of relief). It appears to deal with almost everything. There are certain problems that they have not tested or are not sure of. The Turkish government is being very conservative in saying, "This should heal at least 70-80% of all the pollution problems in the world". They are being conservative on this. And so, what this is going to do is buy us time. Because, I can tell you this right now, the world banks, and the people who are in charge know, that if this water had not come along, if something like this had not come along, we only have less than 3 years left on this planet. All life would be gone. (Ed: I believe it is related to the oxygen levels of the planet going down to a point where life cannot be sustained) And they know this, and they are preparing for it. And now everything is changing. We do not know how much time we've bought, but we've bought a lot. And what it is really, God is present. God has always been here, he has never left us, he has always been with us, and we are the ones which have forgotten God. And God is now about to make himself or herself very obvious. (clapping and cheering) (End of talk) Transcriber's Notes Request to the reader: After reading this, you can probably appreciate what a gift humanity is being given. As you can imagine, some people and companies have much to lose. If this message gets out to enough people, then perhaps governments will not try to suppress and delay this wonderful gift. Pass the message on to as many friends and interested parties as possible. One person cannot easily change the world but a whole bunch of us can! Do your part in helping to clean up the planet. Notes: Drunvalo Melchezidek gave this talk on May 1st '99 at the Wesak '99 celebration help at Mount Shasta. Dr. Joshua David Stone organizes this annual conference (http://www.drjoshuadavidstone.com). The next day, Drunvalo Melchezidek gave a second lecture on 5 other phenomenons that have been happening. Both lectures were such a message of hope for humanity that I felt the need to spread the word to all. A transcription of both talks are available at the Transformacomm Web site (http://www.transformacomm.com/) in both HTML and TXT (ASCII) formats. It also contains links to related web sites as well as the latest news about the water that I am aware of. For those at work, take note that some pages have music on them. The actual tapes from these lectures are available through the company that recorded the entire conference, Rainstar Designs (http://www.rainstar.com/, email rainstar@jetlink.net). Drunvalo's is the author of the recently released The Ancient Secret of the Flower of Life and his personal web site is http://www.drunvalo.net/. This tape was transcribed to the best of my ability. Please forgive any misspelled names or words as well as any typos. Passages that I am still unsure of are marked as "[Unsure text (???)]". I have added the headings myself to make finding the information a bit easier. In a few places, clarifications have been inserted with the mention (Ed:). The summary at the beginning was inspired by a summary that was forwarded to me by a friend. I thank the author Jalien, wherever and whoever you are. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 28 12:01:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03440 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 12:01:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03854; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:39:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03746 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:38:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.204.23]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:38:43 +0100 Message-ID: <377795AA.546B@cwcom.net> Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:32:58 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Its all new to me too!!!! (The Biodynam calendar) References: <011301bec13d$51effa00$6af631ca@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1221 Dear Gareth - many thanks for your enthusiastic reply and the work you're now putting into this exciting calendar project: I hope you remain pleased that I nudged you into it ! Yes, they've been pretty delirious in the Rugby-loving parts of Wales (and I don't know of any other parts). I'm a bit long in the tooth to travel to watch a game now, but I witnessed the first try scored against the Springbok team on tour in the mid-sixties, here in Swansea. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 28 12:16:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03837 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 12:16:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04836; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:52:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04647 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.95]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990628155344.PMGK1400.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 03:53:44 +1200 Message-ID: <37779A86.57FA@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 03:53:42 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: New Garuda Diagram Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1222 The diagram I mentioned last week is now up at the GAruda web page. It is a series of drawings indicating the relationships of the spiritual bodies in the four kingdoms of nature. As well there is one series indicating how the gestrula of the animal and human embryo is formed. There is an article too, which has been posted to the list already. It outlines the Big Picture of the spiritual spheres and bodies relationship. Go to http://business.fortunecity.com/huntsman/39/ click- Pictures click- The Big Picture I used the same colurs as in "Manifestations" however they have not worked as effectively in a same place. Enjoy Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 28 20:25:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA08976 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA06783; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06716 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.138.26] (max17-34.stc.net [208.210.139.34]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA15095 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:08:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37778118.FCFD356B@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:12:30 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Earth/Cosmos Changes Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1223 >Dear List > >The Earth's magnetic fields are changing rapidly. The sun's magnetic >fields are also changing - some people are even saying the Sun no longer >has its own polarity. The Sun is beginning to burn helium instead of >hydrogen and human beings may be beginning to turn from calcium-based >bodies to silica-based bodies. There must be so many more changes afoot >and who knows what, if any, dramatic physical or dimensional shifts the >eclipse is going to contribute. > >I have an unformed question in my head. The preps etc. were formulated >80 years ago under a different cosmos, for a different Earth. Its all >very well studying Steiner in great depth (which I still find >excessively hard to do) but how do we keep track of the fact that change >is the only constant in the Universe - and we must change with it? Am I >spending time trying to understand something where the principles may >still apply, but the details will be changing? > >I may not be particularly clear in verbalising this, but some of you may >get my drift. Hugh - what do you say? > >Alison Alison, Changes are occurring, and compared to the rate they usually have changed in the near past, they are changing rapidly. It isn't the first time, as the onset of ice ages, the Juriassic, Pleistocene, etc. have all been pretty rapid. But I don't think the changes are either so rapid or so radical that BD is becoming obsolete. We may see continents shift, ocean levels rise, poles flip-flop and other radical changes, but none so radical as the time the Moon separated from the Earth (when the Sun switched from sending carbon to the Earth to sending calcium and magnesium carbonates). Our present human bodies are based on both lime and silica, and I believe that for the immediate future they will continue to be. What will happen a thousand years from now may be more of a switch, but for now studying BD is one of the best ways to prepare for the rest of your life and your immediate descendants'. Details may change somewhat, but for the most part they won't change so much regardless of massive natural disasters. What WILL change is the social order, as this presently is reaching the limits of its sustainability. Our economic, political and belief systems are crying for renewal as they can go no further in their present direction. If they don't have a healthy transition they will collapse and the transition will be very painful--but regardless they must change. Best, ***** See it like it is, don't let it bother you. Inhale the delicate fragrance of whatever roses bloom. Appreciate the haunting near-freshness of those summer showers that too briefly settle the dust. Oh such watery broth! How it keeps us moving in this parched and salty desert; how it sustains our glimpses of sweet mountains welling up in our minds' eyes. Think not there's only gristle on this bone. Praise God there's so much water in the soup. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 28 20:51:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA09359 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:51:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA08177; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:38:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA08037 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:35:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from della.niehs.nih.gov (della.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.42]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.9.1a/8.9.1/NIEHS-1.7) with ESMTP id UAA17451 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:36:48 -0400 Received: by della.niehs.nih.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:36:38 -0400 Message-ID: <9CD202B20FE4D211828800A0C955FB40AEF297@drucker.niehs.nih.gov> From: "James.Olivia" To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: radical ant removal Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:36:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1224 hello friends, i wrote at some point several months ago about an ant problem in my house and the responses were along the lines of learning to live with the ants or cleaning up the kitchen better or trying some type of plant, etc. to deter them. i've tried and now they are carrying away family members. i am about to try mixing some of the guys in the blender and applying a spray. but they have not been detered by their own dead before (or by combat bait stations) and i don't expect that to work this time. any other brainstorms for radically, yet in a cosmically-aligned fashion, elminating this ant overpopulation? for example, is there a harmless fungus or other creature that likes ants and wouldn't cause other trouble in the house or garden? i hear ants don't like strips of cucumber. this hasn't helped on a small scale but, if it was an effective solution and affordable, i could surround the border of the house with cucumber strips for a week. if we can dream it we can do it. any ideas, far-fetched or otherwise? olivia From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 28 21:47:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA09952 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA11057; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11016 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp219.cy-net.net [208.21.195.28]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA21519 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:30:59 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEC1A4.FFABD080@FLYLO>; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:30:02 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEC1A4.FFABD080@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: radical ant removal Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:25:12 -0500 Encoding: 14 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1225 Our local Tx organic radio guru Howard Garrett swears that ants HATE cinnamon. it'll either run them or kill them. Ditto citrus oil spray. Preferably, some you blenderize yourself. I think grapefruit (rind) is supposed to work best if you don't want to do a blend. (At least your house will smell like you've been baking and/or cleaning all day!) Personally, I've decided that as long as they're not biting ME, I'll try to live with them, but not in the house. So far they've obeyed the eviction notice, only time will tell, though. (the ants, not the grapefruit.) Please let us know what works for you. You aren't talking Fire Ants are you? martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 28 23:16:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11138 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 23:16:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16679; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 22:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA16482 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 22:54:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d147.infoserve.net [199.175.157.147]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA16459; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 19:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001b01bec1db$42256c60$939dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Cc: Subject: Re: radical ant removal Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 19:58:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1226 -----Original Message----- From: James.Olivia To: 'bdnow@envirolink.org' Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 5:43 PM Subject: radical ant removal >hello friends, >i wrote at some point several months ago about an ant problem in my house >and the responses were along the lines of learning to live with the ants or >cleaning up the kitchen better or trying some type of plant, etc. to deter >them. i've tried and now they are carrying away family members. > >i am about to try mixing some of the guys in the blender and applying a >spray. but they have not been detered by their own dead before (or by combat >bait stations) and i don't expect that to work this time. any other >brainstorms for radically, yet in a cosmically-aligned fashion, elminating >this ant overpopulation? for example, is there a harmless fungus or other >creature that likes ants and wouldn't cause other trouble in the house or >garden? i hear ants don't like strips of cucumber. this hasn't helped on a >small scale but, if it was an effective solution and affordable, i could >surround the border of the house with cucumber strips for a week. if we can >dream it we can do it. any ideas, far-fetched or otherwise? >olivia > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jun 28 23:26:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11305 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 23:26:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17063; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 23:06:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA16923 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 23:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d153.infoserve.net [199.175.157.153]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA16881; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002c01bec1dc$60473d80$939dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Cc: "James.Olivia" Subject: Re: radical ant removal Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:05:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1227 A spray of either of the two mixtures below may help. I have not tried it, but, if you do , let me know how it works. I have tried dried mint leaves in the field and that worked. M. 2. HOT PEPPER/ONION/GARLIC SPRAY/(sowbugs, ants, other soft-bodies) > > Into a VitaMix, mix a handful of hot peppers, two cloves of garlic, a >chopped-up >onion, a small amount of fresh ginger,a cup of vinnegar and half a teaspoon of >ground pepper. Add a bag of tomatos and liquefy in the blender. Sieve. >To use: Can use directly, or better to use a little oil to prevent the "goo" >from >drying out. The insects come back once the "goo" is dried. Can be applied >with a >brush unto surfaces. >Works well with sowbugs and ants, probably other "soft-bodied" insects. >Concerns: Does the mixture burn the insects not kill them, ie. the feet? > What about beneficials? >Alternative Mixture: >Buy ready-made Salsa, add vinegar, garlic, onion, ginger and maybe a bit of >chili >pepper. > Dried mint in the area tends to repel as well. -----Original Message----- From: James.Olivia To: 'bdnow@envirolink.org' Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 5:43 PM Subject: radical ant removal >hello friends, >i wrote at some point several months ago about an ant problem in my house >and the responses were along the lines of learning to live with the ants or >cleaning up the kitchen better or trying some type of plant, etc. to deter >them. i've tried and now they are carrying away family members. > >i am about to try mixing some of the guys in the blender and applying a >spray. but they have not been detered by their own dead before (or by combat >bait stations) and i don't expect that to work this time. any other >brainstorms for radically, yet in a cosmically-aligned fashion, elminating >this ant overpopulation? for example, is there a harmless fungus or other >creature that likes ants and wouldn't cause other trouble in the house or >garden? i hear ants don't like strips of cucumber. this hasn't helped on a >small scale but, if it was an effective solution and affordable, i could >surround the border of the house with cucumber strips for a week. if we can >dream it we can do it. any ideas, far-fetched or otherwise? >olivia > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 29 01:27:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA12962 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 01:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA21624; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 01:09:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand4.global.net.uk (sand4.global.net.uk [194.126.80.248]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA21570 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 01:08:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p46s07a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.215.71] helo=compaq) by sand4.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10yq8o-0000ap-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 06:09:06 +0100 Message-ID: <37784E95.363A@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 05:41:57 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: radical ant removal References: <9CD202B20FE4D211828800A0C955FB40AEF297@drucker.niehs.nih.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1228 James.Olivia wrote: > > hello friends, > i wrote at some point several months ago about an ant problem in my house > and the responses were along the lines of learning to live with the ants or > cleaning up the kitchen better or trying some type of plant, etc. to deter > them. i've tried and now they are carrying away family members. > > i am about to try mixing some of the guys in the blender and applying a > spray. but they have not been detered by their own dead before (or by combat > bait stations) and i don't expect that to work this time. any other > brainstorms for radically, yet in a cosmically-aligned fashion, elminating > this ant overpopulation? for example, is there a harmless fungus or other > creature that likes ants and wouldn't cause other trouble in the house or > garden? i hear ants don't like strips of cucumber. this hasn't helped on a > small scale but, if it was an effective solution and affordable, i could > surround the border of the house with cucumber strips for a week. if we can > dream it we can do it. any ideas, far-fetched or otherwise? > olivia Talcum Powder seems to throw them into confusion,Ants hate it and they clear off as fast as their little legs will take them,but you have to find out how they come in a go out of where ever it is and put a pile of talc there Rex Tyler From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 29 06:46:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA15089 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 06:46:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA29529; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 06:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA29408 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 06:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-69.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-69.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.69]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA46822 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:26:53 GMT Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:26:53 GMT Message-Id: <199906291026.KAA46822@out4.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: radical ant removal Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1229 How about an ant-eater for a pet? ;) Lynton At 08:36 PM 6/28/99 -0400, you wrote: >hello friends, >i wrote at some point several months ago about an ant problem in my house >and the responses were along the lines of learning to live with the ants or >cleaning up the kitchen better or trying some type of plant, etc. to deter >them. i've tried and now they are carrying away family members. > >i am about to try mixing some of the guys in the blender and applying a >spray. but they have not been detered by their own dead before (or by combat >bait stations) and i don't expect that to work this time. any other >brainstorms for radically, yet in a cosmically-aligned fashion, elminating >this ant overpopulation? for example, is there a harmless fungus or other >creature that likes ants and wouldn't cause other trouble in the house or >garden? i hear ants don't like strips of cucumber. this hasn't helped on a >small scale but, if it was an effective solution and affordable, i could >surround the border of the house with cucumber strips for a week. if we can >dream it we can do it. any ideas, far-fetched or otherwise? >olivia > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 29 09:45:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17196 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:45:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06174; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:30:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06112 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.156]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990629133244.ICVA112692.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 01:32:44 +1200 Message-ID: <3778CAF9.455A@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 01:32:41 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Radical Ant removal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1230 Have you tried peppering them? If you are going to make a 'bug juice' of them, save a little juice and if you homeopathically potentise it 30 times at a 0ne drop to 99 drop dilution. Shaken hard hitting your hand for 100 times each dilution you have a ant nosode. These nosodes seem to be working wonders in all sorts of agricultural situations. What is happening with the digestion of the people in your house? Look at the people who lives closest to where the ants inhabit the house. A couple of dolomite tables may just make all the difference. cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 29 10:53:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA18442 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:53:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09892; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from puppy.easynet.ca (root@puppy.easynet.ca [207.245.233.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09792 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:35:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mandm (max44.easynet.ca [207.245.234.194]) by puppy.easynet.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA09050 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990629103615.007e4140@easynet.ca> X-Sender: mhenderson@easynet.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:36:15 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Murray Henderson Subject: RoundUp Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1231 I've been watching this list for some time now, and have seen several times the subject of the use of RoundUp. I've picked up on the fact that it is a bad substance, and have been persuaded that it should not be used. But I really don't know WHY. The reason I am asking for someone to explain to me is because my neighbour was using it the other day from a spray pump bottle on his lawn. I felt like going up to him and asking him to stop. I didn't. I have since realized that I wouldn't have really been able to defend my position on it had he asked me WHY. All I would have been able to say was "I am growing my vegetables within a few metres of your weed problem." Murray Henderson - Kitchener, Ontario, Canada From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 29 12:10:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01792 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:10:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16980; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:57:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15258 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:39:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.204.156]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:40:07 +0100 Message-ID: <3778E9AA.284A@cwcom.net> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:43:38 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Off: subtle energies water treatment References: <00b801bec174$3ea1a2a0$a34b2e9c@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1232 Julie - Thanks for posting the interesting lecture about various super- waters. I have a question which maybe you, or one of our mentors, could answer regarding the demonstration with engine oil. I've read enough, from many sources, not to be sceptical about water with special properties: after all, I occasionally use homeopathic remedies, I energise water when making up the BD preps and I'm about to use a wash-ball instead of detergent. But, mineral oils are made up of only carbon and hydrogen, with some oxygen if they've been processed for particular purposes and a few trace metals; amino-acids and proteins, by definition, contain nitrogen and quite a lot of oxygen. It's very difficult to 'fix' nitrogen from air - so how could a little water, however special, "instantaneously" convert oil to amino-acids without the input of nitrogen-providing chemicals, heat and probably a catalyst of some sort (just maybe vanadium)? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 29 12:10:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01821 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:10:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17055; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:57:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15467 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:40:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp10.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.110]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA26215 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:38:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <001f01bec245$92e27840$6e4b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: <3778CAF9.455A@xtra.co.nz> Subject: Re: Radical Ant removal Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:39:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1233 Dear Glen, I remember your discussion re: mice, back in the winter(?) and the suggestion of nervousness in the household perhaps. Now your association of Ants with digestive disorders. What say you about Colorado potato beetles (larvae especially) in one (only) patch of potatoes? I've been wondering what the imbalance is...why this little section is 'weak' & hosting these fellows. And of course, what they are representative of. The next patch over - planted later, is clean and only a few feet of hay-covered pathway separating the two. The kids love picking the little red & black mushy things (but they like picking ticks off dogs too - blechhh!) & we were advised to make a "soup" of the creatures, cook them slowly so they die a slow death...sending off distress hormones/signals...and spray the stuff on the potatoes (I guess I will NOT be doing this in the house!) Potentizing, making it homeopathic is better? Thanks, Julie PS...I've been hanging bits of catnip in my tomatoes, et al, and it seems to be fending off flea beetles quite nicely. ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage To: Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 8:32 AM Subject: Radical Ant removal > Have you tried peppering them? > > If you are going to make a 'bug juice' of them, save a little juice and > if you homeopathically potentise it 30 times at a 0ne drop to 99 drop > dilution. Shaken hard hitting your hand for 100 times each dilution you > have a ant nosode. These nosodes seem to be working wonders in all sorts > of agricultural situations. > > What is happening with the digestion of the people in your house? Look > at the people who lives closest to where the ants inhabit the house. A > couple of dolomite tables may just make all the difference. > > cheers > > Glen A. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 29 13:42:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03930 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24043; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:24:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23793 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 28175 invoked from network); 29 Jun 1999 17:21:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.28.34) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 29 Jun 1999 17:21:50 -0000 Message-ID: <0e7601bec252$9e4b62c0$7721d2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: RoundUp Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:12:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1234 Hi Murray, here's a post from SANET, just in: Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:58:33 EDT From: Cntraryfmr@aol.com Subject: Roundup "the environmentally friendly herbicide" Subject: Roundup and Cancer PRESS RELEASE - 22 JUNE - New Study Links Monsanto's Roundup to Cancer A recent study by eminent oncologists Dr. Lennart Hardell and Dr. Mikael Eriksson of Sweden [1], has revealed clear links between one of the world's biggest selling herbicide, glyphosate, to non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, a form of cancer [2]. In the study published in the 15 March 1999 Journal of American Cancer Society, the researchers also maintain that exposure to glyphosate 'yielded increased risks for NHL.' They stress that with the rapidly increasing use of glyphosate since the time the study was carried out, 'glyphosate deserves further epidemiologic studies.' Glyphosate, commonly known as Roundup, is the world's most widely used herbicide. It is estimated that for 1998, over a 112,000 tonnes of glyphosate was used world-wide. It indiscriminately kills off a wide variety of weeds after application and is primarily used to control annual and perennial plants. 71% of genetically engineered crops planted in 1998 are designed to be resistant to herbicides such as glyphosate, marketed by Monsanto as Roundup. Companies developing herbicide resistant crops are also increasing their production capacity for the herbicides such as glyphosate, and also requesting permits for higher residues of these chemicals in genetically engineered food. For example, Monsanto have already received permits for a threefold increase in herbicide residues on genetically engineered soybeans in Europe and the U.S., up from 6 parts per million (PPM) to 20 PPM. According to Sadhbh O' Neill of Genetic Concern, 'this study reinforces concerns by environmentalists and health professionals that far from reducing herbicide use, glyphosate resistant crops may result in increased residues to which we as consumers will be exposed in our food.' 'Increased residues of glyphosate and its metabolites are already on sale via genetically engineered soya, common in processed foods. However no studies of the effects of GE soya sprayed with Roundup on health have been carried out either on animals or humans to date,' she continued. The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) statistics from 1997 show that expanded plantings of Roundup Ready soybeans (i.e. soybeans genetically engineered to be tolerant to the herbicide) resulted in a 72% increase in the use of glyphosate. According to the Pesticides Action Network, scientists estimate that plants genetically engineered to be herbicide resistant will actually triple the amount of herbicides used. Farmers, knowing that their crop can tolerate or resist being killed off by the herbicides, will tend to use them more liberally. O' Neill concluded: 'The EPA when authorising Monsanto's field trials for Roundup-ready sugar beet did not consider the issue of glyphosate. They considered this to be the remit of the Pesticides Control Service of the Department of Agriculture. Thus nobody has included the effects of increasing the use of glyphosate in the risk/benefit analysis carried out. It is yet another example of how regulatory authorities supposedly protecting public health have failed to implement the 'precautionary principle' with respect to GMOs.' ENDS Further information: Sadhbh O' Neill at 01-4760360 or 087-2258599 or (home) 01-6774052 Notes [1] Lennart Hardell, M.D., PhD. Department of Oncology, Orebro Medical Centre, Orebro, Sweden and Miikael Eriksson, M.D., PhD, Department of Oncology, University Hospital, Lund, Sweden, 'A Case-Control Study of Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma and Exposure to Pesticides', Cancer, March 15, 1999/ Volume 85/ Number 6. The findings are based on a population-based case-control study conducted in Sweden between 1987 - 1990. The necessary data was ascertained by a series of comprehensive questionnaires and follow-up telephone interviews. Dr. Hardell and Dr. Eriksson found that 'exposure to herbicides and fungicides resulted in significantly increased risks for NHL'. [2] Lymphoma is a form of cancer that afflicts the lymphatic system. It can occur at virtually any part of the body but the initial symptoms are usually seen as swellings around the lymph nodes at the base of the neck. There are basically two main kinds of lymphoma, i.e. Hodgkin's disease and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. The incidence of NHL has increased rapidly in most Western countries over the last few decades. According to the American Cancer Society, there has been an alarming 80% increase in incidences of NHL since the early 1970's. You could also go to the PANUPS site .....at http://www.panna.org and look in the PESTIS database they have; Caroline Cox wrote a long review of the literature some time ago, and others are adding to it, as seen above. HTH, Frank -----Original Message----- From: Murray Henderson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 10:38 AM Subject: RoundUp >I've been watching this list for some time now, and have seen several times >the subject of the use of RoundUp. I've picked up on the fact that it is a >bad substance, and have been persuaded that it should not be used. But I >really don't know WHY. > >The reason I am asking for someone to explain to me is because my neighbour >was using it the other day from a spray pump bottle on his lawn. I felt >like going up to him and asking him to stop. I didn't. I have since >realized that I wouldn't have really been able to defend my position on it >had he asked me WHY. All I would have been able to say was "I am growing my >vegetables within a few metres of your weed problem." > > >Murray Henderson - Kitchener, Ontario, Canada > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 29 14:03:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04735 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:03:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25922; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:47:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25671 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:44:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d152.infoserve.net [199.175.157.152]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA25536 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <003c01bec257$855906a0$989dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: how about slugs, Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:47:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0039_01BEC21C.D7EDA0A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1235 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01BEC21C.D7EDA0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Michael Roboz To: garuda@xtra.co.nz Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 10:45 AM Subject: how about slugs,=20 Dear Glen, =20 Can you pinpoint a part of the anatomy that might be linked with a slug = infestation?=20 eg. mice-nervousness; ants-digestion. M. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01BEC21C.D7EDA0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Michael Roboz <mroboz@infoserve.net>
T= o: garuda@xtra.co.nz <garuda@xtra.co.nz>
Date:=20 Tuesday, June 29, 1999 10:45 AM
Subject: how about slugs,=20

Dear Glen,
 
 Can you pinpoint a part = of the=20 anatomy that might be linked with a slug infestation? =
eg. mice-nervousness;=20 ants-digestion.
M.
------=_NextPart_000_0039_01BEC21C.D7EDA0A0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 29 19:26:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA11879 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 19:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19488; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 19:11:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from red1.netwurx.net (red1.netwurx.net [209.207.63.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA19257 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 19:08:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from michaela (59-24.mwci.net [209.207.59.24] (may be forged)) by red1.netwurx.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA13990 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 18:12:40 -0500 Message-ID: <377954F1.F15@mfai.org> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 18:21:21 -0500 From: tori karpenko Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Michael Fields Agricultural Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: herb garden Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1236 greetings! my name is tori karpenko, i am a garden intern at michael fields agricultural institute in east troy, wisconsin. i am interested in your herb garden manager position. some questions that i have: how would you describe the recent usage of your farm? what are the goals for the future? who does the work, and if what kind of work would i be doing? i am also curious about the location, the surrounding community, housing, travel, etc. i can send more information about myself upon request. thank you for you time, hope to hear from you soon. tori karpenko From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 29 20:52:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA13046 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:52:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA00045; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:37:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scsinternet.com (penguin.scsinternet.com [216.129.11.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29904 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:36:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dial (d54.scsinternet.com [216.129.11.54]) by scsinternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18871 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:41:32 -0400 Message-ID: <008901bec290$bb92ecc0$360b81d8@dial.scsinternet.com> From: "Karen Andersen" To: Subject: Re: off: suttle energies water treatment.re Hugh Lovel Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:37:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0086_01BEC26F.31972520" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1237 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01BEC26F.31972520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is anyone of you famliar with micro water(trademark name), I believe = it,s from Japan also.Is it as effective as they say? -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Lovel To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, June 27, 1999 2:28 PM Subject: Re: off: suttle energies water treatment >> >>Thanks Hugh: >> >>I hope you get the needed time soon so that you can share with us in >>detail your experiences in this fascinating subject. >> >>I will take advantage of the opportunity to reiterat my question about = a >>web site or further info on the "writing pen" like device that one can >>introduce in a glass of water to purify it. I even remember a = distributor >>for such a device, but I can not locate any info now. >> >>Could you or someone else in the list help me ? >> >>Regards > > >Dear Guillermo, > >The device you mention is coming from the Grander Water treatment = people. >Search the web for Grander Water and you'll probably come up with = something. > >Best, > >***** > >See it like it is, don't let it bother you. >Inhale the delicate fragrance of whatever roses bloom. >Appreciate the haunting near-freshness of those summer showers > that too briefly settle the dust. > >Oh such watery broth! >How it keeps us moving in this parched and salty desert; >how it sustains our glimpses of sweet mountains > welling up in our minds' eyes. > >Think not there's only gristle on this bone. >Praise God there's so much water in the soup. > >Hugh Lovel >8475 Dockery Road >Blairsville, Georgia 30512 > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01BEC26F.31972520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is anyone of  you famliar with micro=20 water(trademark name), I believe it,s from Japan also.Is it as effective = as they=20 say?
-----Original Message-----
From: = Hugh Lovel=20 <uai@stc.net>
To: bdnow@envirolink.org <bdnow@envirolink.org>
Date= : Sunday,=20 June 27, 1999 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: off: suttle energies water=20 treatment

>>
>>Thanks=20 Hugh:
>>
>>I hope you get the needed time soon so that = you can=20 share with us in
>>detail your experiences in this fascinating=20 subject.
>>
>>I will take advantage of the opportunity = to=20 reiterat my question about a
>>web site or further info on the=20 "writing pen" like device that one can
>>introduce in = a glass=20 of water to purify it.  I even remember a = distributor
>>for such a=20 device, but I can not locate any info now.
>>
>>Could = you or=20 someone else in the list help me=20 ?
>>
>>Regards
>
>
>Dear=20 Guillermo,
>
>The device you mention is coming from the = Grander=20 Water treatment people.
>Search the web for Grander Water and = you'll=20 probably come up with=20 something.
>
>Best,
>
>*****
>
>See = it like=20 it is, don't let it bother you.
>Inhale the delicate fragrance of = whatever=20 roses bloom.
>Appreciate the haunting near-freshness of those = summer=20 showers
> that too briefly settle the dust.
>
>Oh such = watery=20 broth!
>How it keeps us moving in this parched and salty=20 desert;
>how it sustains our glimpses of sweet mountains
> = welling=20 up in our minds' eyes.
>
>Think not there's only gristle on = this=20 bone.
>Praise God there's so much water in the = soup.
>
>Hugh=20 Lovel
>8475 Dockery Road
>Blairsville, Georgia=20 30512
>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01BEC26F.31972520-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jun 29 21:17:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA13511 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 21:17:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA01376; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 21:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA01291 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 21:02:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.138.26] (max9-27.stc.net [208.210.135.27]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA00247 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 21:03:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990629103615.007e4140@easynet.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 21:04:46 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: RoundUp Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1238 >I've been watching this list for some time now, and have seen several times >the subject of the use of RoundUp. I've picked up on the fact that it is a >bad substance, and have been persuaded that it should not be used. But I >really don't know WHY. > >The reason I am asking for someone to explain to me is because my neighbour >was using it the other day from a spray pump bottle on his lawn. I felt >like going up to him and asking him to stop. I didn't. I have since >realized that I wouldn't have really been able to defend my position on it >had he asked me WHY. All I would have been able to say was "I am growing my >vegetables within a few metres of your weed problem." > > >Murray Henderson - Kitchener, Ontario, Canada Dear Murray, Roundup is not good because it is poison. It poisons weeds. It would poison vegetables as well. Nobody in their right mind would have poison anywhere near food, but of course most of modern agriculture is not in its right mind. Roundup's poison is of the chlorinated hydrocarbon variety and falls in the category of radiomimetic chemistry. That's because the effects of roundup mimic radioactivity. With radioactivity free radicals--some of the most reactive substances--are formed, and these tend to break into the complex organic (life) chemistry at radical or unpredictable places. A plethora of very strange and unusual chemical compounds are formed, many of which are not easily handled by the body chemistry with its designed-over-the-millenia pathways of chemical reactions. Roundup with its chlorine chemistry is not so different, hence the nomenclature "radiomimetic." In summary, roundup is poison, and you don't want it anywhere around you, and especially not in your food. I guess you'll get farther with your neighbor by asking him what he knows about roundup and its dangers, rather than telling him. In the first case he may end up wanting to know about its dangers. In the second case you might find yourself fighting against his beliefs that it is safe. Several years back I was visiting a lady friend's parents' house, where her father was just finishing up (in his shorts!) his weekly bug spraying. "Aren't you worried about poisoning yourself?" I asked. "If it could hurt people they wouldn't let the stores sell it." was his response.There was nothing I could imagine saying in the face of such blind faith. Less than three years later both himself and his wife were dead of cancer. Which goes to show you that ignorance is NOT bliss. Shucks! They were real nice folks, though terribly naive. It's something to think about. Good luck in your communications, ***** See it like it is, don't let it bother you. Inhale the delicate fragrance of whatever roses bloom. Appreciate the haunting near-freshness of those summer showers that too briefly settle the dust. Oh such watery broth! How it keeps us moving in this parched and salty desert; how it sustains our glimpses of sweet mountains welling up in our minds' eyes. Think not there's only gristle on this bone. Praise God there's so much water in the soup. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 10:44:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22478 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:44:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03283; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:30:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03168 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:29:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from twiggins ([165.154.251.52]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA19891 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199906301430.KAA19891@mail1.auracom.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Tom Wiggins" To: Subject: unscribe Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:25:36 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1239 Can you please take me off your list? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 10:56:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22693 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04165; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:43:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03982 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:41:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from twiggins ([165.154.251.52]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA24979 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199906301442.KAA24979@mail1.auracom.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Tom Wiggins" To: Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:38:10 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1240 How do I get off your mailing list? PLEASE advise!!! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 11:19:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23253 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:19:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05641; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:04:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from red1.netwurx.net (red1.netwurx.net [209.207.63.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05497 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:02:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from michaela (59-185.mwci.net [209.207.59.185] (may be forged)) by red1.netwurx.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA17970 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:00:59 -0500 Message-ID: <377A3493.5E33@mfai.org> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:15:31 -0500 From: tori karpenko Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Michael Fields Agricultural Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: radical ant removal References: <9CD202B20FE4D211828800A0C955FB40AEF297@drucker.niehs.nih.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1241 James.Olivia, Regarding ants: have you tried lying fresh tansy across pathways you do not want ants crossing? I used whole, mature stems with leaves attached. I laid 4 - 6 stems on the ground at the door into my house. I did that the entire second half of the first summer I lived in that house. (The first half of the season, the tansy was too small to use as is was a new transplant that year.) The ants did not cross in that way any longer; but for the next 12 years that I lived there, the ants always maintained ant hills near the doorway. I never used tansy with flowers, so I don't know what effect, if any, the presence of tansy flowers would have. It's certainly worth a try. Good Luck! Therese From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 11:20:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23261 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:19:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05692; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from valis.olywa.net (olywa.net [205.163.58.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05592 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:03:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from permawest.olywa.net ([205.163.58.142]) by valis.olywa.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-56662U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:04:24 -0700 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Permaculture West" To: Subject: Re: RoundUp Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 23:47:28 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990630150424213.AAA22719@valis.olywa.net@permawest.olywa.net> Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1242 Now, I have heard that round-up is not a persistent toxin in the environment. Once it is applied it almost immediately begins breaking down into harmless substances. I can see the danger of getting it on your skin or directly in waterways, but if applied properly I wonder if it really presents a danger. This thread of conversation is extremely interesting to me because I am considering using round-up but first want to thoroughly research the potential risk it poses to the environment. In my particular application I am wanting to reforest an area that once was in pasture. The thistle, grasses, and other weeds present a difficult obstacle in getting the new trees established. One approach would be to spray each planting area with round-up to kill the weeds, then plant the trees in the denuded area. The only other "organic" approaches I've been able to come up with are extremely mechanical (plowing and tilling the area multiple times to control the weeds) or extremely labor intensive (mulching each planting area). Since I will be reforesting approximately 10 acres I'm not real excited about the mulching idea and the tilling seems to be a pretty intensive thing to do to the landscape as well. Any feedback? Kirk Hanson From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 11:20:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23290 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05962; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:07:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05791 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:05:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip041.computer.net [140.186.252.41]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA00508 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:06:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:08:27 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Message-ID: <7B09C234DB261C73852567A0005317D9.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1243 Follow these instructions exactly to UNSUBSCRIBE. Do not hit the reply button. Use the address below: To signoff from the list, email to listproc@envirolink.org with the following request: signoff BDNOW or unsubscribe BDNOW From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 11:40:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23731 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07404; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:27:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07035 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d151.infoserve.net [199.175.157.151]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA29387 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <004b01bec30d$253d0620$8e9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: Pesticides/more on roundup (fwd) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:28:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1244 -----Original Message----- From: Michael Roboz To: mroboz@infoserve.net Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 11:23 PM Subject: Pesticides/more on roundup (fwd) > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:14:09 -0700 (PDT) >From: Michael Roboz >To: nicholso@sfu.ca >Subject: more on roundup (fwd) > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 06:02:34 -0500 >From: Richard Wolfson >To: info@natural-law.ca >Subject: more on roundup > >Here are two more articles concerning the pesticide roundup. Many of the >genetically engineered crops are designed to be resistant to roundup, >allowing more use of the pesticide. > >Biotech supporters have said that roundup is more environmentally friendly >and less toxic. Dr. Joe Cummins located these two articles to show that >this claim is not correct: > > >................ > >Title: Acute poisoning with a glyphosate-surfactant herbicide ('Roundup'): >a review of 93 cases. > >Authors: Talbot AR; Shiaw MH; Huang JS; Yang SF; Goo TS; Wang SH; Chen CL; >Sanford TR >Address: Department of Critical Care Medicine, Changhua Christian Hospital, >Taiwan, Republic of China. > >Source Hum Exp Toxicol > >Abstract: >Between 1 January 1980, and 30 September 1989, 93 cases of exposure to >herbicides containing glyphosphate and surfactant ('Roundup') were treated >at Changhua Christian Hospital. The average amount of the 41% solution of >glyphosate herbicide ingested by non-survivors was 184 +/- 70 ml (range >85-200 ml), but much larger amounts (500 ml) were reported to have been >ingested by some patients and only resulted in mild to moderate >symptomatology. Accidental exposure was asymptomatic after dermal contact >with spray (six cases), while mild oral discomfort occurred after >accidental ingestion (13 cases). Intentional ingestion (80 cases) resulted >in erosion of the gastrointestinal tract (66%), seen as sore throat (43%), >dysphagia (31%), and gastrointestinal haemorrhage (8%). Other organs were >affected less often (non-specific leucocytosis 65%, lung 23%, liver 19%, >cardiovascular 18%, kidney 14%, and CNS 12%). There were seven deaths, all >of which occurred within hours of ingestion, two before the patient arrived >at the hospital. Deaths following ingestion of 'Roundup' alone were due to >a syndrome that involved hypotension, unresponsive to intravenous fluids or >vasopressor drugs, and sometimes pulmonary oedema, in the presence of >normal central venous pressure. Language: Eng > >MESH Headings Adolescence*; Adult*; Age Factors*; Aged*; Aged, 80 and >over*; Cardiovascular Diseases*; Case Report; Central Nervous System >Diseases*; Child*; Child, Preschool*; Female; Glycine*; Herbicides*; Human; >Infant*; Kidney Diseases*; Leukocytosis*; Liver Diseases*; Lung Diseases*; >Male; Middle Age* > >............................................................ > >NORML SPECIAL REPORT, November 12, 1996 > >DEA Herbicide Under Fire From Hawaii Residents > >Locals Complain Of Nausea, Other Ailments Due To Aerial Spraying >[Text Version] > >Residents of the island of Hawaii are complaining of flu-like symptoms such >as nausea, headaches, and fatigue and many are pointing fingers at the >federal government and state law enforcement. > >For nearly a decade, Drug Enforcement Agency-coordinated marijuana >eradication efforts have targeted the island of Hawaii, often spraying a >glyphosate-based herbicide from low-flying helicopters over suspected >marijuana patches. Recently, however, some residents are claiming that the >pesticide, a chemical weed-killer similar to "Round Up," is killing >wildlife and making some citizens sick. > >"You can actually taste it in your mouth," said Roger Christie of the >Hawaii Hemp Council, who alleges that the pesticide is occasionally mixed >with additives. Christie reports that gusts of wind disperse the pesticide >to outlying communities, where it collects in rainwater catchments. Rooftop >catchments are a common source of residents' drinking water. Christie is >convinced that the spraying is directly linked to recently reported >environmental and health problems. > >"In the last two weeks, hundreds of people have come to me with their >complaints and said that's why I'm feeling this way too," said Ka'u >resident Susan Smith in an interview with KGMB-TV earlier this month. "[Law >enforcement] are flying over my house every other day. ... It's like a war >zone out here." > >According to local area physician, Patricia Bailey, MD, Christie and >Smith's claims are not without substance. Bailey has collected incident >reports from some 40 persons, aged 9 months to 84 years, who claim that >they have been affected by the spray. She cites generalized symptoms of eye >and respiratory tract irritation. She further notes that about 75 percent >of respondents suffered from diarrhea. > >Affidavits attained by NORML report frequent complaints from residents of >flu-like symptoms such as nausea and headaches, sometimes lasting for more >than a week after the spraying. Others complain of experiencing fatigue, >irritability, soar joints and throats, and frequent itchiness and burning >of the eyes. In one of the most severe reported cases, an Ocean View >resident complained of experiencing prolonged numbness in her arms. "The >numbness was the most prominent and frightening [symptom,]" she explained. >"[It] felt uncomfortable to wear my watch [so] I took it off and carried >it. I kept rubbing my arms, trying to warm them and get blood back >circulating." The resident described the experience as "unnerving." > >"There is a statistical significance to the complaints," said Dr. Bailey. >"I think [this] is serious now." > >Studies on the potential dangers of glyphosate to both humans and the >environment are mixed. According the 1986 federal Environmental Impact >Statement (EIS), laboratory and greenhouse studies performed mostly by the >manufacturer (The Monsanto Company) indicated that glyphosate was only a >moderately toxic herbicide that posed little danger to the environment. > >However, Noah Berry, vice president of EcoLaw Institute Inc., an Oklahoma >organization that works to strengthen environmental laws, has examined the >safety of glyphosate and concludes that the chemical "can do a lot of >damage to our bio-diversity."3 In addition, a 1991 report by the Radian >Corporation concludes that human exposure to glyphosate can cause >"irritation of the skin, gastrointestinal tract and respiratory tract, >convulsions and coma." > >Lenny Terlip of the state Department of Land and Natural Resources (DLNR) >told NORML that claims of glyphosate harming the environment and >endangering the health of residents were "erroneous." He denied reports >that the herbicide was mixed with any additives and said that the sprayings >were not being conducted near houses or residential areas. He further added >that the helicopter-mounted spray-guns have "pin-point accuracy," a claim >rebuked by a review of some of the available scientific literature. > >According to the Journal of Pesticide Reform, "In general, movement of a >pesticide through unwanted drift is unavoidable; drift of glyphosate is no >exception." The article emphasized, however, that glyphosate drift is a >"particularly significant problem ... [because] damage is likely to be much >more extensive and more persistent than with many other herbicides."7 Two >studies conducted in Canada measured glyphosate residues more than 650 feet >away from target areas following helicopter applications to forest sites >and a third study from California found glyphosate over 2,600 feet away >following aerial application.9 By her own estimations, Smith judges that >high wind gusts on the island of Hawaii can carry glyphosate residue even >farther. > >"Why do we have to wait [until] five years from now [for an answer?]" asked >Smith. "Why do we have to wait ... till they tell us, okay, it's toxic and >now it's outlawed?" > >Recently, Smith gathered angry residents to an informal town meeting where >they voiced their grievances with elected officials and state agency >representatives, signed health impact affidavits, and met with news media. >She and other area residents agreed to file a formal complaint with the >DLNR. > >Photographs on display at the meeting documented orange-sprayed foliage in >forests and yards as well as dead bird carcasses. Many residents elaborated >on the symptoms of their illnesses. Glenn Sahara, a spokesman for the >Hawaii Department of Agriculture who attended the meeting, attempted to >deny that the spraying played any role. Instead, he stated that the animal >deaths might be due to heart failure caused by the noise of low-flying >helicopters. Many residents remained unconvinced. "We are being poisoned," >claimed one elderly gentleman. "It's the children I am thinking of. Stop >the aerial spraying!" > >This is an example of "law enforcement run amuck," claimed environmental >activist and resident Jerry Rothstein. Rothstein has studied the original >EIS and tells NORML that residents may file a lawsuit against both state >and federal agencies for failure to comply with regulations mandated by the >1986 report. EIS rules require that law enforcement, "Take all reasonable >steps to notify everyone, including residents, before spraying." > >For the time being, Rothstein is encouraging residents to participate in >the updating of the scheduled 1996 EIS supplement. Public comments on this >notice were requested in the August 13, 1996 issue of the Federal Register >and public hearings will be held before a final version is drafted. > >"From the response of the Ka'u community, th[ese] latest aerial herbicide >attack[s] appear to be among the worst yet," noted Rothstein. He said that >in the past, law enforcement has attempted to dismiss complaints by >alleging that they were only from marijuana growers attempting to protect >their crops. These latest rounds of complaints, however, are too widespread >to ignore, he said. > >Currently, only one other state, South Dakota, engages in aerial herbicide >spraying.1 Swindell, Bill. "State Will Dump Pesticide on Pot." Tulsa World >News: June 11, 1996. > >REFERENCES >2. Cox, Caroline. "Glyphosate, Part 2: Human Exposure and Ecological >Effects." J. of Pest. Rfm.: Vol. 15, Winter 1995. >3. Bishop, Hunter. "Herbicide causing illness?" Hilo Tribune-Herald: >October 24, 1996. >4. NTP Chemical Repository. Radian Corporation: August 29, 1991. >5. Nivia, Elsa and Gips, Judith. "Drug Control and Herbicide Spraying in >Columbia." Global Pesticide Campaigner, February 1993. >6. Cox, Caroline. "Glyphosate, Part 2: Human Exposure and Ecological >Effects." J. of Pest. Rfm: Vol. 15, Winter 1995. >7. Freedman, B. "Controversy over the use of herbicides in forestry, with >particular reference to glyphosate usage." J. Envir. Sci. Hlth.: Vol: >C8(2), 1990-1991. >8. Cox, Caroline. "Glyphosate, Part 2: Human Exposure and Ecological >Effects." J. of Pest. Rfm: Vol. 15, Winter 1995. >9. Ibid. >10. Personal conversation with Jerry Rothstein > >OnSite: 13 NOV 96 © copyright 1996, 1997 NORML > > > > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Campaign to Ban Genetically Engineered Food >Natural Law Party >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >Tel. 613-565-8517 Fax. 613-565-6546 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net >NLP Website: http://www.natural-law.ca >. >To receive regular news from the Campaign to Ban >Genetically Engineered Food, please sent an email >message to rwolfson@concentric.net, with the words >'subscribe GE' in the subject line. To remove yourself >from this list, please send the message 'unsubscribe GE' >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 11:41:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23743 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:41:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07529; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07341 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:27:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d151.infoserve.net [199.175.157.151]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA29546 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <006401bec30d$9509ef40$8e9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: glyphosate/roundup Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:31:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0061_01BEC2D2.E7C1A1A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1245 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01BEC2D2.E7C1A1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable G. works by interferes with the metabolism of a plant, such that the = cell wall synthesis is being interfered with. It actually can be = attached to soil particles and be persistant for quite a long time. It = will enter the ground water system quite easity as quite soluble. More on G. on other posts that I kept from some time ago from bdnow. M. ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01BEC2D2.E7C1A1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  G. works by interferes = with the=20 metabolism of a plant, such that the cell wall synthesis is being = interfered=20 with.  It actually can be attached to soil particles and be = persistant for=20 quite a long time.  It will enter the ground water system quite = easity as=20 quite soluble.
More on G. on other posts = that I kept=20 from some time ago from bdnow. M.
------=_NextPart_000_0061_01BEC2D2.E7C1A1A0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 11:42:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23771 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:42:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07463; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07132 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:24:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d151.infoserve.net [199.175.157.151]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA29421 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <005801bec30d$3fa01700$8e9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: pesticides/Re: glyphosate (fwd) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:28:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1246 -----Original Message----- From: Michael Roboz To: mroboz@infoserve.net Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 9:19 AM Subject: pesticides/Re: glyphosate (fwd) > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:11:41 -0800 >From: Barry Carter >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Re: glyphosate > >Dear Margaret, >At 08:19 PM 1/20/99 +1100, you wrote: >>Hi there >>I am a new member to bdnow and would like some up- to- date info on the >>effects of glyphosate on people. >>My 18yr old daughter became epileptic approx 12months ago and by accident >>she found it is 'Round Up' (which has the active ingredient gyyphosate) >>which causes her epilepsy. >>I have had many people asking for information regarding this. I would >>appreciate any feed back. > >Fact sheets on many pesticides are available on the web site of the >Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to Pesticides (NCAP) at: > >http://www.efn.org/~ncap/factsheets.html#pesticides > >They are in Adobe PDF format so you will need the Acrobat reader. I have >the text from this document and I am including it at the bottom of this >note. This article originally appeared in the Journal of Pesticide Reform >in 1992 or so. The PDF document on the NCAP web page is dated 1998 so I am >sure that it has significant updated information. > >>On another e-mail list an item came through about aspartame. Then the next >>day it was said to be a hoax. Is there any info. available on aspartame? > >You can find more info on aspartame at: > >http://www.dorway.com/possible.html > >The site above has the most comprehensive list of reference materials on >Aspartame. It looks like most of the references are anecdotal, though many >have been written by MDs. > >http://www.tiac.net/users/mgold/aspartame2/adverse-g.txt >http://gen.free.de/gentech/1998/Mar-May/msg00123.html > > >Glyphosate >By Caroline Cox > >Glyphosate, N-(phosphonomethyl) glycine (Figure 1), has been registered as >a broad spectrum herbicide since 1974. It is manufactured by Monsanto >Agricultural Company in the United States and by GENP International >Corporation in Taiwan. It is marketed under the trade names of Roundup, >Rodeo, Roundup L&G, Shackle, Shackle C, Vision, Accord,1 and Polado.2 > >Most of these products use the isopropylamine salt of glyphosate; Polado >(used as a plant growth regulator to control ripening of sugar cane) >contains the sodium salt.2 The isopropylamine salt is used to control weeds >in a wide variety of agricultural, lawn and garden, aquatic, and forestry >situations.3 Glyphosate is toxic to grasses, sedges, and annual and >perennial broadleaf plants.2 > >As an herbicidal compound, glyphosate is unusual in that essentially no >structurally related compounds show any herbicidal activity.4 > >In 1988, the most recent year for which U.S. Environmental Protection >Agency (EPA) estimates are available, between 10 and 15 million pounds of >glyphosate were used in the United States.5 > >Acute Toxicity > >Glyphosate’s acute oral LD50* in rats is 4320 milligrams per kilogram >(mg/kg) of body weight. This places the herbicide in Toxicity Category III >(Caution). Its acute dermal toxicity (dermal LD50) in rabbits is 794 mg/kg >of body weight for females and 5010 mg/kg of body weight for males, also >Toxicity Category III.2,3 The intraperitoneal (when the dose is applied by >injection into the abdomen) LD50 in rats is much lower (192-279 mg/kg).6 >The oral and dermal LD50s are higher than the intraperitoneal LD50 because >glyphosate is poorly absorbed by skin and the digestive system. It is not a >skin irritant but is a mild eye irritant (to rabbits).3 > >The formulated products Roundup and Vision contain a surfactant,* >polyoxyethylated tallow amine (one compound in the chemical family called >polyoxyethylene amines or POEA).7 The surfactant is three times more >acutely toxic than glyphosate itself. POEA is an "inert" ingredient and is >not listed on the label. Physicians in Japan who studied 56 cases of >Roundup poisoning (mostly suicides or attempted suicides, 9 cases were >fatal) calculated that the mean amount ingested in the fatal cases was >slightly more than 200 milliliters (about 3/4 of a cup). They believed that >POEA was the cause of Roundup’s toxicity.8 > >Symptoms of acute poisoning in humans following ingestion of Roundup >include gastrointestinal pain, vomiting, swelling of the lungs, pneumonia, >clouding of consciousness, and destruction of red blood cells.8 Eye and >skin irritation has been reported by workers mixing, loading, and applying >glyphosate.2 EPA’s Pesticide Incident Monitoring System had 109 reports of >health effects associated with exposure to glyphosate between 1966 and >October, 1980. These included eye or skin irritation, nausea, dizziness, >headaches, diarrhea, blurred vision, fever, and weakness.9 > >The California Pesticide Illness Surveillance Program has reported 30 to 56 >incidents related to glyphosate exposure each year since 1982. Until 1986, >glyphosate was one of the top five pesticide chemicals in the number of >incidents reported; it was ninth and twelfth in 1987 and 1988.10 > >Exposure to Roundup has also been associated with other acute effects in >humans. Oregon’s workers compensation insurance agency (SAIF Corporation) >reported that in 1987 a worker sustained an immediate allergic reaction >(including anaphylactic shock) while watering a lawn that had been sprayed >with Roundup.11 In Great Britain, a study compared the effects of breathing >dust from a flax milling operation that used flax treated with Roundup with >dust from untreated flax. Treated flax dust caused a decrease in lung >function and an increase in throat irritation, coughing, and breathlessness.12 > >Chronic toxicity > >Chronic studies used for the registration of glyphosate are done with >technical glyphosate rather than the formulated products.2 > >In a chronic feeding study, mice showed abnormalities of the liver and >kidney. The no-observable effect level (NOEL)* for these effects is 5,000 >mg/kg. A one year study showed a decrease in the weights of pituitary >glands in dogs fed glyphosate. (The pituitary gland is an endocrine gland >at the base of the brain which secretes hormones that regulate growth and >metabolism). The tentative NOEL for this effect is 20 mg/kg and EPA has >asked for more testing of this effect.2 > >Carcinogenicity: Carcinogenicity tests (tests of the ability to cause >cancer) of glyphosate have led EPA to conclude that "the oncogenic >potential of glyphosate is not fully understood at this time."2 > >A chronic feeding study in mice found a slight increase in a benign kidney >tumor at the highest dose tested (30,000 mg/kg). However, the number of >tumors observed were not significantly greater than those found in >unexposed mice when the data were adjusted to account for greater survival >of the mice fed the high dose of glyphosate. As a result, EPA requested >that the mouse study be repeated and has classified glyphosate as a Class D >carcinogen (inadequate animal evidence of carcinogenicity) pending the new >study.2 > >Other concerns about glyphosate’s potential carcinogenicity arise because >glyphosate is contaminated with N-nitrosoglyphosate (Figure 1) at levels of >0.1 ppm or less.2 N-nitroso-glyphosate (NNG) is a member of the nitrosamine >or N-nitroso chemical family, approximately three quarters of which are >carcinogens.13,14 > >Many N-nitroso compounds form in the stomach after ingestion of amino >compounds (of which glyphosate is one) and nitrites contained in food.13 >Also, laboratory tests of soils in which nitrite levels are high showed >that NNG is formed following applications of glyphosate.15 The amount of >NNG formed was highest in soils that had small amounts of both organic >matter and clay. Another experiment showed that the NNG was taken up from >the soil by oat seedlings, and that NNG moved more readily into oat roots >than did glyphosate itself.16 NNG has also been found in forest foliage and >litter samples, as well as in the viscera of deermice, following aerial >application of Roundup.17 > >Mutagenicity and Reproductive Effects: None of the mutagenicity studies >required for registration of glyphosate have shown it to be mutagenic >(causing genetic damage). Tests included studies of mutations in hamster >ovary cells, bacteria, and mice, and DNA repair in rat liver cells.2 > >A laboratory study of human lymphocytes (one type of white blood cell) >showed an increase in the frequency of sister chromatid exchanges, one >indicator of possible mutagenicity, following exposure to high doses of >glyphosate. The test used only a very small sample of lymphocytes and >indicates the need for more research.18 > >In a study of developmental toxicity, high doses of glyphosate caused >abnormal bone formation in rats. In a three generation rat study, the last >generation studied developed kidney problems. No reproductive effects were >observed in a rabbit study.2 > >Neurotoxicity: No valid neurotoxicity tests had been submitted to EPA at >the time glyphosate’s registration standard was issued.2 > >Contaminants > >Concerns have been raised about two chemicals found in glyphosate >formulations: N-nitrosoglyphosate (NNG), a potential contaminant of all >glyphosate-containing products and 1,4-dioxane, a contaminant of POEA found >in glyphosate formulations that use the surfactant. Roundup and Vision >contain POEA; Rodeo and Accord contain only glyphosate and water.19 > >Although N-nitrosoglyphosate’s chemical structure suggests that it is >likely to be carcinogenic,13 tests for carcinogenicity, mutagenicity, or >reproductive effects were not required for glyphosate’s registration >because NNG has not been found in glyphosate at levels above 0.1 parts per >million (ppm).2 A chronic feeding study in dogs showed NNG increased kidney >weights (with a NOEL of 10 mg/kg), while a rat study showed NNG caused a >decrease in survival, food consumption, and weight gain (effects were noted >at the lowest dose tested).2 A rabbit study indicated that 30 mg/kg NNG >caused a decrease in the number of live young and a reduction in newborn >survival.20 Another rat study showed that NNG is rapidly absorbed following >ingestion, in contrast to glyphosate which is poorly absorbed.2 > >POEA is contaminated with 1,4-dioxane (Figure 1) during the manufacturing >process. 1,4-Dioxane causes death of kidney and liver cells following oral, >dermal, or inhalation exposure.21 Both the National Cancer Institute21 and >the International Agency for Research on Cancer22 classified 1,4-dioxane as >an animal carcinogen. 1,4-Dioxane has been found at levels as high as 350 >ppm in Vision,23 but Monsanto reported in 1991 that dioxane levels have >now been reduced.7 > >Environmental Fate > >Most degradation of glyphosate is caused by microbial action; EPA states >that it is negligibly degraded by light, and little evaporates (although >EPA has asked Monsanto to provide additional data about photodegradation >and volatility). Glyphosate is stable and not hydrolyzed in sterile water, >indicating that microorganisms rather than chemical processes are >responsible for its degradation.2 > >In EPA tests using water from natural sources, the half-life (the time >required for a chemical to be reduced to half of its original amount) >ranged from 35 to 63 days.2 Persistence in soils is also variable. In >Ontario, Canada, glyphosate’s half-life in forest soils was 24 days (with >detectable residues persisting for 335 days)24 while a half-life measured >in a Finnish study was 249 days.25 Glyphosate was detected in Ohio farming >soils 152 days after application of Roundup.26 Some of this variability is >due to the numbers and types of microorganisms present. > >Glyphosate’s potential to leach into groundwater is usually described as >low because the herbicide is strongly adsorbed to soil particles. However, >the mobility test required by EPA was only partially completed at the time >glyphosate’s registration standard was issued.2 Glyphosate was detected in >run-off water 122 days after application of Roundup in the Ohio study >mentioned above26 and was detected in stream sediments 574 days after >application in a British Columbia study.27 A Maximum Contaminant Level Goal > (MCLG) of .7 milligrams of glyphosate per liter of drinking water has been >proposed by EPA based on the kidney problems found in the three generation >rat study mentioned above.28 > > A Canadian study of Vision applications to wild blueberry and red >raspberry showed that although glyphosate half-lives in the berries were >relatively short (13-20 days), residues persisted for as long as the study >lasted (61 days in the blueberries and 33 days in the raspberries) and were >always above the permissible residue level (0.01 parts per million) set by >Health and Welfare Canada.29 > >Effects on Nontarget Organisms > >Glyphosate, because of its broad-spectrum herbicidal activity, has the >potential for significant impacts on nontarget organisms; it can cause both >direct mortality of susceptible plants and indirect effects on animals, >through destruction of food or shelter. > >One striking example of the potential for glyphosate to affect nontarget >organisms is the list of 76 endangered species that EPA believes may be >jeopardized by the use of glyphosate. The list includes 74 species of >plants, one toad, and one beetle.2 > >A three year study of songbird abundance following glyphosate treatment of >clearcuts in Maine forests showed that abundances of the total number of >birds (Figure 2) and the abundances of three common species of birds >decreased in comparison to untreated control areas. The decrease in bird >abundance was correlated with decrease in the diversity of the habitat.30 >Changes in bird abundance and behavior were also noted in an Oregon study >of Roundup treated clearcuts.31 In the Oregon study, species that decreased >in abundance were those that used shrubs for foraging and nesting. > >The researchers in Maine also found that abundances of small mammals were >lower on the glyphosate treated clearcuts than on untreated controls >(Figure 2). Shrews were less abundant on treated clearcuts for three years >following treatment, while mice were less abundant for two years. Decreases >in small mammal abundance were paralleled by reductions in the amount of >plant cover, the amount of plant food, and the number of invertebrates on >the plants (Figure 2).32 > >Roundup at low concentrations inhibits photosynthesis and growth of the >algae, Chlorella pyrenoidosa.33 > >Another study showed that glyphosate treatment inhibited nitrogen fixation >and reduced root weight in a greenhouse study of clover. The clover was >grown in soil treated with glyphosate 120 days prior to planting the >clover.34 Similar results were found in an Australian study.35 > >Acute toxicities of Roundup to fish ranged from an LC50* of 2.3 milligrams >per liter (mg/l) for fathead minnows to an LC50 of 13 mg/l for channel >catfish. Juvenile fish are more susceptible than adults. Toxicity to >rainbow trout and bluegills increased with increasing water temperature and >about doubled between 7 and 17°C (45-63°F). Toxicity also increased in acid >water (with a pH greater than 7.5).36 Roundup was less acutely toxicity to >the water flea (LC50=25.5 mg/l)37 than to fishes, but water fleas were >immobilized by concentrations similar to those that killed fish (EC50*=3.0 >mg/l).37 Fish in water containing 2 mg/l of Roundup accumulated glyphosate >residues in both fish tissues and eggs.36 > >Aerial application of Roundup to a British Columbia stream caused stress >and mortality of coho salmon fingerlings.38 In addition, the defoliation >caused by the Roundup application raised water temperatures for the next >two summers. Increases in water temperature affect fish populations, >particularly juvenile salmon.39 > >Residue Analysis > >Analysis for glyphosate residues is difficult because glyphosate is very >soluble in water and not soluble in the organic solvents used to separate a >pesticide from the material that is being analyzed. The most widely used >procedure, developed by Monsanto, has a low rate of recovery (45-70 percent >in EPA tests) and can therefore underestimate residue levels.40 It is >"lengthy and laborious."41 Until 1989, other methods required equipment >that is not commonly found in analytical laboratories, although newer >methods promise to be simpler.41 The Monsanto method is the only one that >has been tested on a large number of types of samples, including various >crops, soils, and animal tissues.40 > >Summary > >Acute glyphosate exposure in humans causes eye and skin irritation, >headaches, and nausea. Chronic effects on laboratory animals include >effects on the pituitary gland and the kidney. Under proper conditions, >glyphosate can form N-nitroso-glyphosate, a compound associated with a >variety of chronic health effects. > > Glyphosate is moderately persistent in soils and has significant impacts >on nontarget organisms. Field applications have been shown to affect bird >and small mammal abundance, stream temperatures, and juvenile salmon >survival. It also can significantly reduce microbial nitrogen fixation. > >References > > 1. U.S. Department of Agriculture, U.S. Department of the Interior, Bureau >of Land Management, and U.S. Department of Energy, Bonneville Power >Administration. 1991. Glyphosate Pesticide Fact Sheet. Draft. > > 2. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. 1986. Guidance for the >reregistration of pesticide products containing glyphosate. Washington, >D.C.: Office of Pesticide Programs. > > 3. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. 1986. Pesticide fact sheet. >Washington, D.C.: Office of Pesticide Programs. > > 4. Carlisle, S.M. and J.T. Trevors. 1988. Glyphosate in the environment. >Water, Air, and Soil Pollution 39:409-420. > > 5. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. 1989. Pesticide industry sales >and usage: 1988 market estimates. Washington, D.C.: Office of Pesticide >Programs, Economic Analysis Branch, Biological and Economic Analysis Division. > > 6. Olorunsogo, O.O., E.A. Bababunmi, and O. Bassir. 1977 Proc. 1st >Internation. Congress of Toxicology (Toronto, Canada). Cited in Olorunsogo, >O.O., E.A. Bababunmi, and O. Bassir. 1979. Effect of glyphosate on rat >liver mitochondria in vivo. Bull. Environm. Contam. Toxicol. 22:357-364. > > 7. Letter from Jon H. Arvik, Environmental Affairs Manager, Monsanto >Agricultural Company, to Kay Rumsey, Landscape Management Advisory >Committee, School District 4J. Eugene, OR. February 26, 1991. > > 8. Sawada, Y., Y. Nagai, M. Ueyama, and I. Yamamoto. 1988. Probable >toxicity of surface-active agent in commercial herbicide containing >glyphosate. Lancet 1(8580):299 . > > 9. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. 1980. Summary of reported >pesticide incidents involving glyphosate (isopropyl-amine salt). Report No. >375. Washington, D.C.: Health Effects Branch, Hazard evaluation Division, >Office of Pesticide Programs. > >10. California Department of Food and Agriculture. 1982-1988. Summary of >illnesses and injuries reported by California physicians as potentially >related to pesticides. Sacramento CA: Division of Pest Management, >Environmental Protection and Worker Safety, Worker Health and Safety Unit. > >11. SAIF Corporation. 1987. Occupational disease referral (claim number >deleted). Industrial Hygiene, Loss Control Section. > >12. Jamison, J.P., J.H.M. Langlands, R.C. Lowry. 1986. Ventilatory >impairment from pre-harvest retted flax. British Journal of Industrial >Medicine 43:809-813. > >13. Lijinsky, W., G. Singer, and H.W. Taylor. 1974. Carcinogenic N-nitroso >compounds. In Bucdiossi, P., U. Vernesi, and N. Cascinell (eds.). Proc. of >the VI International Cancer Congress. Florence, Italy, October 20-26. > >14. Sittig, Marshall (ed.). 1980. Priority toxic pollutants: Health impacts >and allowable limits. Park Ridge, NJ: Noyes Data Corporation. > >15. Kahn, S.U. and J. Young. 1977. N-nitroso-amine formation in soil from >the herbicide gly-phosate. J. Agric. Food Chem. 25(6):1430-1432. > >16. Kahn, S.U. and P. Marriage. 1979. Uptake of glyphosate and >N-nitrosoglyphosate from soil by oat plants. J. Agric. Food Chem. >27(6):1398-1400. > >17. Newton, M., et al. 1984. Fate of glyphosate in an Oregon forest >ecosystem. J. Agric. Food Chem. 32:1144-1151. > >18. Vigfusson, N.V. and E.R. Vyse. 1980. The effect of the pesticides, >Dexon, Capton and Roundup on sister-chromatid exchanges in human >lymphocytes in vitro. Mutation Research 79:53-57. > >19. Arvik, Jon, Environmental Affairs Manager, Monsanto Agricultural >Company. Personal communication. April, 1991. > >20. California Department of Food and Agriculture, Medical Toxicology >Branch. 1988. Summary of toxicological data: Glyphosate, isopropylamine salt. > >21. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. 1980. Memo from Frank D. Kover, >Chemical Hazard Identification Branch, to Joseph J. Merenda, Director of >the Assessment Division. Status Report 8EHQ-0280-0331S and 8EHQ-0480-0336S. > >22. International Agency for Research on Cancer. 1987. IARC Monographs on >the Evaluation of Carcinogenic Risks to Humans. Supplement 7. World Health >Organization. > >23. CANTEST Ltd. October 5, 1989. Analysis of liquid sample for volatile >organics. File No. 849OH. CANTEST; Suite 200; 1523 West 3rd Ave.; >Vancouver, British Columbia V6J 1J8. > >24. Roy, D.N. et al. 1989. Persistence, movement, and degradation of >glyphosate in selected Canadian boreal forest soils. J. Agric. Food Chem. >37:437-440. > >25. Müller, M.M., et al. 1981. Fate of glyphosate and its influence on >nitrogen-cycling in two Finnish agriculture soils. Bull. Environm. Contam. >Toxicol. 27:724-730. > >26. Edwards, W.M., G.B. Triplett, Jr., and R.M. Kramer. 1980. A watershed >study of glyphosate transport in runoff. J. Environ. Qual. 9(4):661-665. > >27. Wan, M.T.K. 1986. The persistence of glyphosate and its metabolite >amino-methyl-phosphonic acid in some coastal British Columbia streams. >Department of the Environment, Conservation and Protection, Environmental >Protection Service, Pacific and Yukon Region. > >28. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. 1990. National primary and >secondary drinking water regulations; synthetic organic chemicals and >inorganic chemicals; proposed rule. Federal Register 55(143): 30393 (July >25). > >29. Roy, D. et al. 1989. Uptake and persistence of the herbicide glyphosate >(Vision) in fruit of wild blueberry and red raspberry. Can J. For. Res. >19:842-847. > >30. Santillo, D., P. Brown, and D. Leslie. 1989. Responses of songbirds to >glyphosate-induced habitat changes on clearcuts. J. Wildl. Manage. >53(1):64-71. > >31. Morrison, M. and C. Meslow. 1984. Effects of the herbicide glyphosate >on bird community structure, western Oregon. Forest Sci. 30(1): 95-106. > >32. Santillo, D., D. Leslie, and P. Brown. 1989. Responses of small mammals >and habitat to glyphosate application on clearcuts. J. Wildl. Manage. >53(1):164-172. > >33. Hernando, F. et al. 1989. Effect of glyphosate on the greening process >and photosynthetic metabolism in Chlorella pyrenoidosa. J. Plant Physiol. >134:26-31. > >34. Eberbach, P. and L. Douglas. 1983. Persistence of glyphosate in a sandy >loam. Soil Biol. Biochem. 15(4):485-487. > >35. Eberbach, P.L. and L.A. Douglas. 1989. Herbicide effects on the growth >and nodulation potential of Rhizobium trifolii with Trifolium subterraneum. >Plant and Soil 119:15-23. > >36. Folmar, L.C., H.O. Sanders, and A.M. Julin. 1979. Toxicity of the >herbicide glyphosate and several of its formulations to fish and aquatic >invertebrates. Arch. Environ. Contam. Toxicol. 8:269-278. > >37. Servizi, J.A., R.W. Gordon, and D.W. Martens. 1987. Acute toxicity of >Garlon 4 and Roundup herbicides to salmon, Daphnia, and trout. Bull. >Environ. Contam. Toxicol. 39:15-22. > >38. Holtby, L.B. and S.J. Baillie. 1989. Effects of the herbicide Roundup >on coho salmon fingerlings in an over-sprayed tributary of Carnation Creek, >British Columbia. In Reynolds, P.E. (ed.) Proceedings of the Carnation >Creek Herbicide Workshop. Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Canada: Forest Pest >Management Institure. > >39. Holtby, L.B. 1989. Changes in the temperature regime of a valley-bottom >tributary of Carnation Creek, British Columbia, over-sprayed with the >herbicide Roundup (glyphosate). In Reynolds, P.E. (ed.) Proceedings of the >Carnation Creek Herbicide Workshop. Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Canada: >Forest Pest Management Institute. > >40. Bardayle, P., W. Wheeler, H. Moye. 1985. Analytical techniques of >glyphosate residue analysis. In Grossbard, E. and D. Atkinson (eds.). The >herbicide glyphosate. Woburn, MA.: Butterworths. > >41. Roy, D. and S. Konar. 1989. Development of an analytical method for the >determination of glyphosate and (aminomethyl) phosphonic acid residues in >soils by nitrogen-selective gas chromatography. J. Agric. Food Chem. >37:441-443. > > >-- >With kindest regards, > >Barry Carter > >Blue Mountain Native Forest Alliance >WEB Page: http://www.triax.com/bmnfa/index.htm >Voice: 541-523-3357 >Fax: 541-523-9438 > >Stupidity got us into this mess -- >why can't it get us out? > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 11:54:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24043 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:54:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08628; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:41:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08508 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.65]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990630154256.VKBP112692.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 03:42:56 +1200 Message-ID: <377A3AFE.56B3@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 03:42:54 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: PVH Peppering results Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1247 I reported earlier how we peppered Passion Vine Hopper in around 30 kiwifruit orchards this last season. We had a seminar last Tuesday to coordinate and present the results. Of the 30, 1 property reported less than favourable results however I understand he did get results with a PVH nosode. Otherwise we have effects ranging from a 20% to 100% improvement. Amid all the variations - Influential factors include -The longer it was used the better -A monthly application seemed to work best however, a two monthly application (4xpa) provided a 80% improvement and this grower had an extreme drought situation. -Where Etherics 1000 and 501 were used the highest improvements were experienced - The low improvement figures were off properties that begun the program half way through the season. -It worked well on conventional orchards, sprayed through chemical sprayers (interesting) -It worked well when sprayed with summer oils -The day after spraying the PVH became very sluggish so they were easily caught, otherwise they would fly away quickly. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 11:55:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24061 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08672; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08509 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.65]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990630154300.VKBU112692.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 03:43:00 +1200 Message-ID: <377A3B02.137F@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 03:42:58 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Radical Ant remedy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1248 Julie Colorado Potato beetle I do not know this beetle first hand however, Kolisko and others point out how beetles are of the fire element and I associate them with particularly dry & hot environments. My pick is the patch with them is particularly low in etheric forces, due to soil type or previous crop out take. An extra spray of 500 (and a nettle seaweed tea or similiar) over that patch may just make all the difference. Are these beetles in the house? My comments about house dwelling insects are based on the fact that mostly it is humans who inhabit there and therefore it is their inbalances that the insects reflect. If they were we would be looking at Egoic/nerve sense system problems as a start. re homeopathics I am a fan of peppering and as yet only heard homeopaths talk about the nosodes, so am yet to try them out. Michael re slugs Again they are rarely a house problem. My Pest Protection spray does wonders with slugs. It is essentially aimed at boosting the etheric of the plant. We play an interesting game. We buy nursery seedlings, especially lettuce and brassica seedlings, and spray them and water them as well with the PP, diluted 1 ml to about 300mls of water. Leave them to grow till the new leaves appear ( a darker green usually ) plant them out and the slugs usually eat the old leaves from the nursery and leave the new ones alone, for about a month. We find that after about six months of using our Etherics 1000 (all the preps) all the slugs are gone anyway, usless it is heavy wet clay where it can take a couple of years. Even in wet clay though the PP does the above. I have not really thought about the human correspondant of slugs cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 12:04:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24309 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:04:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09660; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09488 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:49:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.65]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990630155245.VLZL112692.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 03:52:45 +1200 Message-ID: <377A3D4B.7822@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 03:52:43 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Potentised clay observations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1249 After the Horn clay discussions of last December or so I potentised some clay (not horn clay) to about D8 and sprayed it over a row of Echinacea Purpurea, twice about three weeks apart. This is on a sandy peaty soil. The top growth showed a marked thickening of the stem and a slight reduction of height While digging the root though a marked difference showed up. Firstly there was about a 20% or so increase in the rootlet numbers but most of all the roots were very white compared to the others. When dried they maintained colour and density better as well. All very interesting Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 13:11:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26160 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:11:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16300; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16005 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:55:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.138.26] (max6-47.stc.net [208.210.133.175]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA24257 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0e7601bec252$9e4b62c0$7721d2d8@windows98> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:58:33 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: RoundUp Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1250 >Hi Murray, here's a post from SANET, just in: > > >Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:58:33 EDT >From: Cntraryfmr@aol.com >Subject: Roundup "the environmentally friendly herbicide" > >Subject: Roundup and Cancer > >PRESS RELEASE - 22 JUNE - New Study Links Monsanto's Roundup to Cancer > Dear List, On a more hopeful note regarding our personal lifetimes as well as human evolution, after attending the Artemesia Conference '99 concerning anthroposophical medicine, I was enlightened to a few important concepts. For one, there is quite a bit out there in anthroposophical medicine concerning challenging the body to respond to allergies and similar things that it formerly could not cope with. This is stuff that--not always, but commonly--works. ROUNDUP READY SOYBEANS and their attendant glyphosate chemical burden qualify as such. In fact, many of the things coming at us from genetic engineering fit this model. It is pretty clear from sources that are not wedded to genetic engineering that the DNA and RNA in these new crops are not the usual and not what fits our general metabolism. There's a lot of oddballs and in the rush to patenting genetics and securing profit and loss statements, there has been an unpredicdented assault on our environment. This will backfire in foods that are not fit for human consumption. We've got to cope with this. It's a big question how human life (as well as other kinds) will survive on this planet as artificial genetic technologies replicate themselves and contaminate our environment. It's pretty clear we will have some life here on Earth. But can we, personally survive? That's not so clear. We depend on a very broad chain of biological transactions which a few of us are busily screwing with, almost at random, with genetic engineering. We'reThese alterations are entering into the biosphere willy-nilly through the proliferation of transgenic crops. Then bees have to adjust, earthworms have to adjust, and everything else, including mankind, must adjust. We can do this! Organisms can adjust. But, it may take generations. At issue here is fighting for the life of this planet. I would emphasize the word life, except that here on earth the conditions favor life of some kind even if it is not of our kind. Something very likely will survive. It's a large wonder. Do we have to innoculate our farm organisms and oure diet with the products of genetic modification? I throw this question out there, though I don't really "like" the idea. I figure the recent banquets (I'm a chef) I've prepared are nearing their last, but fron here where will, where can, we go? How must we adapt to these changing conditions? Human beings are pretty adaptable. It is our strength. How go we? Won't we have to teach our bodies and our childrens' to process radicallly different DNA because of genetic modification? Best, ***** See it like it is, don't let it bother you. Inhale the delicate fragrance of whatever roses bloom. Appreciate the haunting near-freshness of those summer showers that too briefly settle the dust. Oh such watery broth! How it keeps us moving in this parched and salty desert; how it sustains our glimpses of sweet mountains welling up in our minds' eyes. Think not there's only gristle on this bone. Praise God there's so much water in the soup. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 13:54:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26978 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:54:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19579; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19357 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.138.26] (max14-10.stc.net [208.210.137.138]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA29240 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:40:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <377A3B02.137F@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:44:38 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Radical Ant remedy Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1251 >Julie > >Colorado Potato beetle > >I do not know this beetle first hand however, Kolisko and others point >out how beetles are of the fire element and I associate them with >particularly dry & hot environments. My pick is the patch with them is >particularly low in etheric forces, That's absolutely right. On biodynamic farms with the preps active, this beetle only comes in where the soil does not have enough oxygen, enough etheric forces. Potatoes, incidentally, are a good crop for getting rough, new land into row crop production. Often the oxygen content of the soil declines from there, but it doesn't have to. That's another topic. Hugh Lovel >due to soil type or previous crop >out take. An extra spray of 500 (and a nettle seaweed tea or similiar) >over that patch may just make all the difference. Are these beetles in >the house? My comments about house dwelling insects are based on the >fact that mostly it is humans who inhabit there and therefore it is >their inbalances that the insects reflect. If they were we would be >looking at Egoic/nerve sense system problems as a start. > >re homeopathics >I am a fan of peppering and as yet only heard homeopaths talk about the >nosodes, so am yet to try them out. > >Michael re slugs > >Again they are rarely a house problem. My Pest Protection spray does >wonders with slugs. It is essentially aimed at boosting the etheric of >the plant. We play an interesting game. We buy nursery seedlings, >especially lettuce and brassica seedlings, and spray them and water them >as well with the PP, diluted 1 ml to about 300mls of water. Leave them >to grow till the new leaves appear ( a darker green usually ) plant them >out and the slugs usually eat the old leaves from the nursery and leave >the new ones alone, for about a month. We find that after about six >months of using our Etherics 1000 (all the preps) all the slugs are gone >anyway, usless it is heavy wet clay where it can take a couple of years. >Even in wet clay though the PP does the above. I have not really >thought about the human correspondant of slugs > >cheers > >Glen A. ***** See it like it is, don't let it bother you. Inhale the delicate fragrance of whatever roses bloom. Appreciate the haunting near-freshness of those summer showers that too briefly settle the dust. Oh such watery broth! How it keeps us moving in this parched and salty desert; how it sustains our glimpses of sweet mountains welling up in our minds' eyes. Think not there's only gristle on this bone. Praise God there's so much water in the soup. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 15:17:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA29024 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24796; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:59:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ccsi.com (infinity.ccsi.com [198.6.201.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24667 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a (spider120.ccsi.com [216.140.146.120]) by ccsi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA27288 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:54:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:56:30 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEC300.5AEC3B40.kiskat@ccsi.com> From: Kathryn Kistner To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" Subject: Fire ants: Feed them coffee Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:56:04 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1252 Two years ago, we spread a thick ring of coffee grounds around ant hills, and they were gone in 1-2 weeks. Unfortunately, our goats began eating the coffee grounds (and getting "high" on it), so we collected all the grounds, and the ants have come back. Now, the goats are gone; we haven't put the grounds out again, yet, but it's time. We get grounds from coffee bars and restaurants. If you can get them to agree to save the grounds for you, keep you word, and show up at the appointed time, or they will probably never save them for you again. I read about this, originally, in Backwoods Home Magazine, November/December 1991: "Surround the hill with a thick ring of coffee grounds, and the ants will not cross it...First, we protected our house with a solid 3" layer of grounds against our foundation around the entire building. It worked; we never saw another ant in the house or greenhouse and it has been four years." I swear by this solution. Have tried it, and it really works. Kathryn From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 15:25:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA29289 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:25:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25633; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:11:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ctc.swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25509 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:10:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (ctca120.vthokies.net [206.153.172.120] (may be forged)) by ctc.swva.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id PAA10579 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:11:27 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:11:27 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990630152033.09b74046@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: RoundUp Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1253 At 11:47 PM 6/29/99 -0700, you wrote: > Now, I have heard that round-up is not a persistent toxin in the >environment. Once it is applied it almost immediately begins breaking down >into harmless substances. I can see the danger of getting it on your skin >or directly in waterways, but if applied properly I wonder if it really >presents a danger. > This thread of conversation is extremely interesting to me because I am >considering using round-up but first want to thoroughly research the >potential risk it poses to the environment. In my particular application I >am wanting to reforest an area that once was in pasture. The thistle, >grasses, and other weeds present a difficult obstacle in getting the new >trees established. One approach would be to spray each planting area with >round-up to kill the weeds, then plant the trees in the denuded area. The >only other "organic" approaches I've been able to come up with are >extremely mechanical (plowing and tilling the area multiple times to >control the weeds) or extremely labor intensive (mulching each planting >area). Since I will be reforesting approximately 10 acres I'm not real >excited about the mulching idea and the tilling seems to be a pretty >intensive thing to do to the landscape as well. > Any feedback? > >Kirk Hanson I found a brief report in the German BD magazine "Lebendige Erde" from 1964 (#4, p. 268) about BD horn silica (501) being inadvertantly used to kill thistles. Horn silica is usually sprayed in the early morning for the purpose of stimulating growth or to promote ripening. In this case, however, the thistles, which were in bloom, were sprayed intensively about noon on a sunny day and they all became brown and dried up. Only a few late-maturing thistles bloomed later. The report doesn't say what happened in subsequent years (i.e., whether the thistles resprouted from their roots) and I have not heard of anyone else using horn silica in this way, but it sure seems like it would be worth a try. (Spray liberally at noon on a sunny day during a dry spell. You could also try increasing the number of units per acre.) If the horn silica doesn't work well enough, you might also think of using animals, e.g., sheep, goats, donkeys. Best wishes, Malcolm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 17:03:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA01687 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA04117; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:49:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03705 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 209.143.11.49 (hils-ras1-2-cs-21.dial.bright.net [209.143.11.49]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id QAA14835 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <377A8E9C.3186@bright.net> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:39:39 -0500 From: Marilyn Hiestand Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: RoundUp References: <19990630150424213.AAA22719@valis.olywa.net@permawest.olywa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1254 In reponse to alternative ways to denude a field, have you considered flaming? My neighbor has used this and he believes that it is very effective. You can learn more about this from him, Mark Dobbs, 937-393-8541 or 1-800-341-5432. Good luck. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 21:04:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA05352 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18169; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:49:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18103 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d155.infoserve.net [199.175.157.155]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA05705 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001701bec35c$02447140$9b9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Fire ants: Feed them coffee, other uses for coffee Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:52:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1255 Coffee is good fertilizer around acid-loving plants, such as blueberries, etc. M> -----Original Message----- From: Kathryn Kistner To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 12:03 PM Subject: Fire ants: Feed them coffee >Two years ago, we spread a thick ring of coffee grounds around ant hills, >and they were gone in 1-2 weeks. Unfortunately, our goats began eating the >coffee grounds (and getting "high" on it), so we collected all the grounds, >and the ants have come back. Now, the goats are gone; we haven't put the >grounds out again, yet, but it's time. >We get grounds from coffee bars and restaurants. If you can get them to >agree to save the grounds for you, keep you word, and show up at the >appointed time, or they will probably never save them for you again. >I read about this, originally, in Backwoods Home Magazine, >November/December 1991: >"Surround the hill with a thick ring of coffee grounds, and the ants will >not cross it...First, we protected our house with a solid 3" layer of >grounds against our foundation around the entire building. It worked; we >never saw another ant in the house or greenhouse and it has been four >years." >I swear by this solution. Have tried it, and it really works. >Kathryn > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 21:10:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA05415 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:10:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18441; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18343 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:53:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d155.infoserve.net [199.175.157.155]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA05928 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002a01bec35c$bf6dbc40$9b9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: flaming, steam, RoundUp Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:57:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1256 That is what they do in Hawaii, especially after sugar cane harvest for the bagasse. There is now a "weedeater" machine that jets steam at the bottom end. Modelled on large machines on railway tracks that now steam the blackberries, etc. that are along British Columbia railway lines. How water with salt does also work, but, like glyphosate, must be careful not to hit non-target plants. Again, contact kill/maims all. I have tried it, but, some plants will still come back up after a while, so it has to be repeated. M. -----Original Message----- From: Marilyn Hiestand To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 1:53 PM Subject: Re: RoundUp >In reponse to alternative ways to denude a field, have you considered >flaming? > >My neighbor has used this and he believes that it is very effective. You >can learn more about this from him, Mark Dobbs, 937-393-8541 or >1-800-341-5432. Good luck. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jun 30 22:58:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA06863 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25435; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inovion.com (root@solo.inovion.com [216.172.181.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25356 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:40:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tom (s22.cs00.inovion.com [216.172.181.154]) by inovion.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA15355 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 02:49:57 GMT (envelope-from wikstrom@inovion.com) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990630204413.0099b824@inovion.com> X-Sender: wikstrom@inovion.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:44:13 -0600 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Tom Wikstrom Subject: Re: In-Reply-To: <199906301442.KAA24979@mail1.auracom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1257 Good luck!! I have been trying to get off for weeks and no success. If you do please advise. Thanks, At 07:38 AM 6/30/99 -0700, you wrote: >How do I get off your mailing list? PLEASE advise!!! > > > Tom Wikstrom, Happy Trowels Farm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jul 1 01:15:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA09119 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 01:15:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA01322; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.243]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA01253 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-197.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-197.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.197]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA28416 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 04:56:02 GMT Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 04:56:02 GMT Message-Id: <199907010456.EAA28416@out5.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: RoundUp Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1258 At 11:47 PM 6/29/99 -0700, you wrote: > Now, I have heard that round-up is not a persistent toxin in the >environment. Once it is applied it almost immediately begins breaking down >into harmless substances. I can see the danger of getting it on your skin >or directly in waterways, but if applied properly I wonder if it really >presents a danger. As I understand it, applications of Roundup begin with 'overspray', which drifts with air movement. Then evaporation, so that the amount of toxin that is absorbed by the target area is much less than the amount applied. Although the claim is that Roundup in the soil "breaks down", this could be an assumtion that if they find 10 ppm on spray-day and two days later it is 4ppm (or whatever) then the difference has been bio-degraded - when what might have actually happened is it has evaporated. The toxin that has evaporated then falls with the rain or settles as dew, to repeat the cycle. Gradually the winds move it poleward. On its journey it can also deposit in the sea to contaminate the food chain. This process is true for many pesticides and herbicides, including the supposedly 'good' pyrethrum. And another point: it is considered unhealthy to have the toxin come in contact with the skin. If you think about it, the lung is an internal surface of skin, and an especially absorbant one at that. So it figures that if its bad on the skin, its much worse in the lung. Just the merest whiff must have some consequences! Lynton From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jul 1 09:49:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13349 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:49:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA10875; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 06:56:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA10736 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 06:54:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 18864 invoked from network); 1 Jul 1999 10:55:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.29.15) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 1 Jul 1999 10:55:03 -0000 Message-ID: <002e01bec3af$4a083ea0$0f1dd2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: RoundUp Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 06:48:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1259 You have ten acres of reforestation of a pasture, but not ten acres to cultivate...you can mow most or some of the pasture and use that hay as mulch, after doing some cultivation a few feet around each tree. It is crucial to keep the weeds down for the first two years or so, after which the trees will be established and less needy... As to the Roundup question, what you suggest (breaks down quickly into harmless compounds) is the official line, and some organicky types have toed it, eg Gene Logsdon, Stevie O. Daniels, Jeff Ball...none of them Nobel Prize winners in eco-toxicology.... Eliot Coleman speaks for me when he says "I believe that in the long term, _all_herbicides will be proven to be harmful to growers and consumers." see The New Organic Grower, 1995, Chelsea Green, p159. I would think an economically reasonable way to start trees would be in 3' cleared circles that you hoe with a wheel hoe and then mulch as hay becomes available; in quack grass areas you would need to cultivate more often....see Coleman's discussion of the wheel hoe... Here in the Northeast quackgrass is cleaned from large areas by cover cropping with buckwheat (tilled at flowering) twice, followed by cereal rye, which takes an entire year.... In the Agriculture course Steiner specifically mentions quackgrass as a prospect for peppering....so that might be a course of action for this or other of your worst weeds...intensive (Voisin-style) grazing will also eliminate quackgrass.... In closing, consider the problem of lead....although in minute amounts lead is part of the life cycle, the addition of large amounts of lead into paint and gasoline and other materials has been decried since the time of Benjamin Franklin; when it was put into gasoline in the 20s, public health authorities were against it, but it took 50 years and the determined efforts of people like Dr. Needleman to finally get the lead out, and still there are thousands of (mostly low-income) housing units in the inner cities that are full of disintegrating lead paint.... So down the road, when this rust inhibitor that turned out to be an herbicide is finally fully studied and understood, you have to guess whether it turns out to have been truly 'harmless' or, in fact, insidiously destructive. Are you feeling lucky? As a final note, check with Agroforestry and other permaculturists; there must be lots of tree planters out there who could offer you their experiences and insights, and some of them may have really neat and clever ways to do what needs to be done without glyphosate....there's always the evil black plastic.... Frank "Science --- true science --- is organised skepticism. Technology is organised boosterism. We get in trouble when we confuse the two."---Bart Hall's father, a chemist, speaking to his son -----Original Message----- From: Permaculture West To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 11:05 AM Subject: Re: RoundUp > Now, I have heard that round-up is not a persistent toxin in the >environment. Once it is applied it almost immediately begins breaking down >into harmless substances. I can see the danger of getting it on your skin >or directly in waterways, but if applied properly I wonder if it really >presents a danger. > This thread of conversation is extremely interesting to me because I am >considering using round-up but first want to thoroughly research the >potential risk it poses to the environment. In my particular application I >am wanting to reforest an area that once was in pasture. The thistle, >grasses, and other weeds present a difficult obstacle in getting the new >trees established. One approach would be to spray each planting area with >round-up to kill the weeds, then plant the trees in the denuded area. The >only other "organic" approaches I've been able to come up with are >extremely mechanical (plowing and tilling the area multiple times to >control the weeds) or extremely labor intensive (mulching each planting >area). Since I will be reforesting approximately 10 acres I'm not real >excited about the mulching idea and the tilling seems to be a pretty >intensive thing to do to the landscape as well. > Any feedback? > >Kirk Hanson > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jul 2 00:38:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA00674 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:38:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA13009; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:24:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goofy.arcom.com.au (root@goofy.arcom.com.au [203.57.68.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA12888 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ruicaish (c4-p37.arcom.com.au [203.152.250.230]) by goofy.arcom.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA24047 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:52:14 +0930 Message-ID: <001201bec4cc$c74ae7a0$e6fa98cb@ruicaish> From: "Vincent Brown" To: Subject: remove Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:52:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1260 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jul 2 00:52:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA00838 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA13495; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:39:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yancey.main.nc.us (yancey.main.nc.us [209.192.111.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13450 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:39:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from donnas (ppp3.yancey.main.nc.us [209.192.111.134]) by yancey.main.nc.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA19444 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:35:53 -0400 Message-ID: <013601bec443$956304e0$866fc0d1@donnas> From: "donnas" To: Subject: Re: radical ant removal Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:22:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1261 Tansy planted around the foundation is supposed to keep ants out of the house.....maybe some cut pieces would work as well. Diatomaceous Earth works really well if you want to make a barrier line..... or know exactly where they are getting in ; those that cross it will desiccate. Donatera From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jul 2 15:00:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04423 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 15:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22661; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 14:47:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22433 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 14:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d143.infoserve.net [199.175.157.143]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA22312 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000801bec4bb$919f0980$8f9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: bees Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:49:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1262 Dear Jane, Starhawk, bdnow, We are having the opposite problem with our bees here. Here, in the Pacific North West, it is grey, cool, rainy, drizzly. Nectar flow has been late, short, and now beginning to dry up. We have had very little honey. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 8:54 AM Subject: Re: web sites on Viticulture >Trying to catch up to myself after moving. Here's a note from Starhawk: >---------------------- Forwarded by Jane Sherry/wcdev/US on 07/02/99 11:48 >AM --------------------------- > > >Starhawk on 05/11/99 09:03:08 PM >To: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US >cc: >Subject: Re: web sites on Viticulture > >Hi Jane--if you feel like it, you could thank the beekeeping list for their >encouragement, tell them we replaced our dead bees with mail-order brides, >bought a second hive and just yesterday we successfully hived a wild swarm >that had taken up residence in a mailbox down the road. Now, what do the >BD folks suggest we feed them all during the summer when its so dry here >and there isn't a lot of forage? It was really a wonderful feeling to work >with the bees, none of us got stung and we just projected calm and soothing >energies--and it was really amazing to see them all milling about at thee >ntrance and then slowly going into the hive after we'd gotten the queen and >the main swarm in there. They'd already built comb in the mailbox so it >was more a colony than just a swarm--but it turned out easy! Blessed bee, >Star > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 4 04:18:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA22428 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 04:18:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA04632; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 04:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA04582 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 04:02:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-88.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.88]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA07830 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:03:16 +1000 Message-ID: <01b001bec5f3$772fd1e0$58431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: OFF: Belgian food contamination Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 16:19:15 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1263 Dear Jon, Are you interested in importing any Biodynamic Certified meat from Australia? We have beef, lamb, pork, goat available. We are having a Conference of BD Farmers July 24th where I could ask about supply if you are interested. I look forward to hearing back, Sincerely, Cheryl Kemp Education & Advisory Coordinator Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 -----Original Message----- From: Jon de Ruijter <174982@student.fbk.eur.nl> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, 27 June 1999 12:17 am Subject: Re: OFF: Belgian food contamination >Well well, I see our European dioxin crise has reached the reporters in >the USA also! > >We have a chain of butcher shops in Holland, called De Groene Weg) We >sell only organic meat. >Ofcourse the dioxin schandal is very important for us. It prooves (once >again) that the conventional agriculture has gone way too far in >producing more and more for less and less. > >Because of the horrible circumstances animals are raised and the even >worse feeds they get. Believe me, this is not a incident. Time and time >again, the governments discover that all kind of things happen with our >food that we don't (want to) know of. > >De Groene Weg stores have had a increase in turnover of 65% the last >month. It's amazing how people react on schandals like these and (more >important) how soon they forget all about it again. > >We started in 1978 with our company and in all those years we've noticed >that organic agriculture and foodprocessing is only possible by the so >called 'costumer emancipation'. > >Only by signals from the costumers, producers can develop products with >the high organic quality. >De Groene Weg (and the organic foodbranche in Europe) are growing 15 to >20% each year for the last 3 year. More and more it becomes clear that >the way we were going wasn't the right one. > >De Groene Weg is (by far) the biggest organic meat producer in Europe. >We export to Danmark, Italy, Belgium, Germany, England and Sweden, >deliver our 22 stores in Holland and 250 healthfoodstores and another >500 supermarkets throughout Europe. > >If there are any question at all about organic meat or the dioxin >schandal, please view our website (www.degroeneweg.nl) and sent your >mail. > >Sincerely, > >Jon de Ruijter > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 4 09:37:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23981 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10764; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10703 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:21:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip018.computer.net [140.186.252.18]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA16888 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:22:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:24:16 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: July 04, 1999 - July 10, 1999 Message-ID: <0C8847C0C9534FD5852567A400499B56.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id JAA10704 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1264 Calendar of the Soul [July 04, 1999 - July 10, 1999] Fourteenth Week (July 7-13) SUMMER Surrendering to senses' revelation I lost the drive of my own being, And dreamlike thinking seemed To daze and rob me of myself. Yet quickening there draws near In sense appearance cosmic thinking. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ An Sinnesoffenbarung hingegeben Verlor ich Eigenwesens Treib, Gedankentraum, er schein Betäubend mir das Selbst zu rauben, Doch weckend nahet schon Im Sinneschein mir Weltendenken. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+14 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 4 10:39:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24451 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:39:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12041; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:26:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtfm.midcoast.com (root@dns.midcoast.com [206.26.226.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11989 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jpt (liberty-c-008.midcoast.com [208.153.20.108]) by rtfm.midcoast.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA07165 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:26:10 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990703214718.0087e510@midcoast.com> X-Sender: stgeorge@midcoast.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 21:47:18 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "John P. Thomas and Kathleen Barrett" Subject: Questions About Haying In-Reply-To: <013601bec443$956304e0$866fc0d1@donnas> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1265 Dear BD Listers We set out to buy equipment to cut our own hay this year. Our shopping took longer than planned and the hay was ready two weeks earlier than we expected. Thankfully, we got about 2 or 3 acres of clover in the barn before the tractor got sick. There is another 4 to 5 acres of clover grown with BC which is rapidly going by. and about 15 acres of average to poor quality hay (not grown with preps) which is pretty far gone. We will make every attempt to get the clover in the barn, but our questions involve the poorer quality hay which would be about 800 to 1000 bales. These are our options. 1. Cut the hay and use or sell it for mulch. It won't bring a lot of money and we don't need that much mulch. 2. Let someone else cut the hay and pay us baleage. Ten cents a bale. 3. Bushhog the hay and leave it on the land to build humus. Regardless of which option we choose, we plan to begin spraying with BC as soon as the hay is cut. We are tending to go in the direction of the third option because we are trying to keep resources on the farm. Is it healthy for the land to just leave bushhogged hay to decompose with the help of BC? Is there a better alternative to the ones listed above? Could we build compost piles of hay and use compost preps and compost starter even though we don't have much manure to add? We will be getting a few sheep later this month and a few calves in the fall. Is is more healthy for the land to cut and remove the old growth hay so that we might get a second cutting in the fall? What do you think? John St. George Farm Freedom, Maine, USA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 4 11:19:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24773 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13002; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12878 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:04:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.151] (pm3shep3-163-151.intrepid.net [209.190.163.151]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA25202 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:05:33 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:07:58 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Brown Rot / #508 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1266 I think I've got the name right: brown rot (on orchard fruit ). It takes beautiful fruit and reduces it to sludge which eventually becomes a gray 'mummy.' Thanks to the drought, we've had no rot here until the rains of this past week. Now brown rot is here BIG TIME!! Equisetum will be a good remedy for it, I'm sure. Anyone have experience using equisetum or other natural remedy for this malady? While I feel I really cured a black rot on fava's this spring by spraying directly with equisetum, all of the literature I reviewed yesterday (Proctor, Lovel, etc) seemed to be saying that equisetum reduces the watery element and thereby PREVENTS rot, but none appeared to be saying that it would stop rot that was in progress. (Proctor even suggest not applying equisetum on the plant at all, but only on the soil.) I brewed the horsetail yesterday and will dilute it tomorrow per Proctor's suggestions. Is there not need to do a 20 minute stir on it if it is applie 'homeopathically.? Thanks Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA BIODYNAMICS Now! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 4 11:32:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24901 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13565; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:19:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13379 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:16:07 -0400 (EDT) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id hCNCa18287 (8038) for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:16:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <368615d.24b0d4c5@aol.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:16:21 EDT Subject: Re: Brown Rot / #508 To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1267 In a message dated 7/4/99 11:07:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bdnow@igg.com writes: << (Proctor even suggest not applying equisetum on the plant at all, but only on the soil.) I brewed the horsetail yesterday and will dilute it tomorrow per Proctor's suggestions. Is there not need to do a 20 minute stir on it if it is applie 'homeopathically.? Thanks Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA BIODYNAMICS Now! >> Info from JPI said that the fermented BD 508 should be sprayed on the ground and non-fermented on the fruit. The fermented by the way goes further (diluted more). Stirring for 20 min is recommended for both. DanL, Long Mountain Vineyard From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 4 12:03:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA25168 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14678; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:49:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14615 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:48:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.71] ("port 2054"@[148.233.78.71]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FEC0033IUDGFR@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:41:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 10:48:55 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Brown Rot / #508 In-reply-to: <368615d.24b0d4c5@aol.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1268 >Info from JPI said that the fermented BD 508 should be sprayed on the ground >and non-fermented on the fruit. The fermented by the way goes further >(diluted more). Stirring for 20 min is recommended for both. DanL, Long >Mountain Vineyard Can you please provide the specific JPI reference, I cant seem to find this on the JPI documents I have. Could it be posible that Mr. Gardner comment on this issue ? Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 4 12:06:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA25191 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:06:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14775; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14662 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:49:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d143.infoserve.net [199.175.157.143]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA20210 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 08:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000a01bec635$88c91b40$8f9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Brown Rot / #508 Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 08:54:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1269 My experience with #508 (Eq.), Neem, Malaleuca and Compost Teas is that they seem to work more preventively rather than curatively. M. -----Original Message----- From: Intergalactic Garage To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, July 04, 1999 8:10 AM Subject: Brown Rot / #508 >I think I've got the name right: brown rot (on orchard fruit ). It takes >beautiful fruit and reduces it to sludge which eventually becomes a gray >'mummy.' > >Thanks to the drought, we've had no rot here until the rains of this past week. >Now brown rot is here BIG TIME!! > >Equisetum will be a good remedy for it, I'm sure. Anyone have experience >using equisetum or other natural remedy for this malady? > >While I feel I really cured a black rot on fava's this spring by spraying >directly with equisetum, all of the literature I reviewed yesterday >(Proctor, Lovel, etc) seemed to be saying that equisetum reduces the watery >element and thereby PREVENTS rot, but none appeared to be saying that it >would stop rot that was in progress. (Proctor even suggest not applying >equisetum on the plant at all, but only on the soil.) > >I brewed the horsetail yesterday and will dilute it tomorrow per Proctor's >suggestions. Is there not need to do a 20 minute stir on it if it is applie >'homeopathically.? > >Thanks > >Allan Balliett >Claymont Farm CSA >BIODYNAMICS Now! > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 4 12:52:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26167 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:52:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16073; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:39:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16018 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:37:40 -0400 (EDT) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id hKFBa29808 (573) for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:38:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:38:05 EDT Subject: Re: Brown Rot / #508 To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1270 In a message dated 7/4/99 11:51:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, romerog@col1.telmex.net.mx writes: << Info from JPI said that the fermented BD 508 should be sprayed on the ground >and non-fermented on the fruit. The fermented by the way goes further >(diluted more). Stirring for 20 min is recommended for both. DanL, Long >Mountain Vineyard Can you please provide the specific JPI reference, I cant seem to find this on the JPI documents I have. >> It came with the latest order of 508, an alternative method for applying BD 508. "The fermented BD#508 most likely should be applied as a soil spray, whereas the fresh tea version is most likely the form to use as a foliar spray". Statement wasn't on previous versions of insert on alternative method. Interesting words "most likely". Comments? DanL From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 4 15:06:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA27329 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 15:06:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20653; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 14:52:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20605 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 14:51:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.100] (pm3shep2-163-76.intrepid.net [209.190.163.76]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19602 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 14:52:17 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 14:55:41 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Brown Rot / #508 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1271 >My experience with #508 (Eq.), Neem, Malaleuca and Compost Teas is that they >seem to work more preventively rather than curatively. M. That seems logical, for certain. However, twice now I've knocked out--after inception-- that 'black rot' that makes it almost impossible to grow fava beans in this region. I used fermented - and undiluted - 508 in both cases. -Allan bdnow@igg.com =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Discussion Group of Contemporary Biodynamic Horticulture is dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes full development of the human being. Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD listserve, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 5 10:06:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03298 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:06:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22680; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 09:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22556 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 09:48:02 -0400 (EDT) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id hMCZa23458 (4262) for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 09:48:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <333fb549.24b211a5@aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 09:48:21 EDT Subject: Re: Brown Rot / #508 To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1272 In a message dated 7/4/99 2:54:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, igg@igg.com writes: << That seems logical, for certain. However, twice now I've knocked out--after inception-- that 'black rot' that makes it almost impossible to grow fava beans in this region. I used fermented - and undiluted - 508 in both cases. -Allan bdnow@igg.com >> Alan, did you spray on ground or on beans themselves? DanL From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 5 10:27:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03473 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:27:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23299; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:14:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23229 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:13:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.27] (pm3shep1-163-27.intrepid.net [209.190.163.27]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA31924 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:14:36 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <333fb549.24b211a5@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:18:00 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Brown Rot / #508 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1273 >In a message dated 7/4/99 2:54:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, igg@igg.com >writes: > ><< That seems logical, for certain. However, twice now I've knocked out--after > inception-- that 'black rot' that makes it almost impossible to grow fava > beans in this region. I used fermented - and undiluted - 508 in both cases. > > -Allan > bdnow@igg.com >> > >Alan, did you spray on ground or on beans themselves? DanL My intention was to spray the plants. I did spray the ground also. -Allan bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 5 22:52:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA13573 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 22:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25968; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 22:37:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25923 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 22:36:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.137.149] (max19-73.stc.net [208.210.143.72]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA13504 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 22:37:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990703214718.0087e510@midcoast.com> References: <013601bec443$956304e0$866fc0d1@donnas> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 22:40:36 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Questions About Haying Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1274 >Dear BD Listers > >We set out to buy equipment to cut our own hay this year. Our shopping >took longer than planned and the hay was ready two weeks earlier than we >expected. Thankfully, we got about 2 or 3 acres of clover in the barn >before the tractor got sick. > >There is another 4 to 5 acres of clover grown with BC which is rapidly >going by. and about 15 acres of average to poor quality hay (not grown with >preps) which is pretty far gone. We will make every attempt to get the >clover in the barn, but our questions involve the poorer quality hay which >would be about 800 to 1000 bales. > >These are our options. > >1. Cut the hay and use or sell it for mulch. It won't bring a lot of money >and we don't need that much mulch. > >2. Let someone else cut the hay and pay us baleage. Ten cents a bale. > >3. Bushhog the hay and leave it on the land to build humus. > >Regardless of which option we choose, we plan to begin spraying with BC as >soon as the hay is cut. We are tending to go in the direction of the third >option because we are trying to keep resources on the farm. Is it healthy >for the land to just leave bushhogged hay to decompose with the help of BC? > Is there a better alternative to the ones listed above? Could we build >compost piles of hay and use compost preps and compost starter even though >we don't have much manure to add? We will be getting a few sheep later >this month and a few calves in the fall. Is is more healthy for the land >to cut and remove the old growth hay so that we might get a second cutting >in the fall? > >What do you think? > >John > > >St. George Farm >Freedom, Maine, USA Dear John, These are good questions. If you don't cut the hay you have a field that is losing its potential. It does not regrow and does not favor clover, which is where your nitrogen probably is coming from. You might consider your other nutrient elements as to whether you use the hay for mulch or sell it for same or for baleage, or bushhog it to compost or whatever. If you have excellent levels of calcium, magnesium, potash and phosphorus you can afford to sell it off. If you don't you probably need to return it to the field. I have a field that was chicken manured for 20 years until it grew bumper crops of cockleburs. Taking hay off that field was a must since it had way too much phosphorus. I cut weeds (cockleburs) and got them off that field as hay to remedy it's problems. All I had to do was lime, cut hay frequently (very frequently like three cuttings a year) and draw in nitrogen with the legumes. The potash reserve was fine and the legumes developed it well. So I say that to illustrate that conditions vary and you need to know what your's is. A few things to be aware of are (1) frequent cutting favors legumes like colver so you don't need nitrogen fertilizers. (2) frequent cutting especially at bloom stage means the plants have attained maximum vigor and have fastest rebound, and (3) frequent cutting means the hayfield thickens and the density of growth increases dramatically so you get more hay overall, even though the individual cuttings are not such high tonnage. It really helps to return some composted manure to a hayfield every few years. Those animal forces help enormously. I Europe they used to spray their barn drainings back on their hayfields after cutting. This led the Earth into abundance. Modern wisdoms have been to buy cheap fertilizers, which turn out to be ruinous. So if you choose to bushhog and compost the residues back with barrel compost, this will be very good for a moderate to weak field and you'll get all those forces, animal, vegetable and mineral working back into the field. You really also need fall to fall horn clay (which so far can only be supplied by way of a "cosmic pipe" or etheric field broadcaster) to catch the nutrients so they don't wash away or leach anywhere. But then you need the full complex of the BD preparations. Folks on this list might get a bit full from hearing me say this kind of thing, so I'll try to only say it once or twice. T There is no cheaper nor more effective nor simpler and more labor efficient way of applying all the BD preps as a cohesive whole, a living organism, as the etheric field broadcasters also known as cosmic pipes. This broadcaster applies all the preps to as much as 500 acres each and every day, all day and night long, 365 and 366 on leap year. I'm one of the most reserved people when it comes to advertising since I perceive most of it as hype, and yet I have to say what I know and I have gone from manually spraying preps to using the broadcaster for all my prep applications on my farm (with a few spot applications). No machinery, no fuel, no impact, no wasted time, and no attendant ruin and pollution. Just straight broadcast into the life energy fields, and excellent effectiveness. I DO advise for maximum activation to manually spray the preps according to a back-to-back sequence too complicated for here. You're entitled to skepticism, of course. I invite it even. I've been skeptical all my life and I honor skepticism. The etheric broadcaster, aka Cosmic Pipe is simply too easy, to good to be true. But for application of BD preps--ALL OF THEM CONSTANTLY ON YOUR FARM--it's a big help. There's still a lot to know about making preps, observing their effects, troubleshooting, seeing when something goes wrong. This etheric broadcaster is no magic bullet, no panacea, no cure-all. It will be a big help, but we've got to stop killing everything or it will end up that nothing helps anymore. We went up on our prices for installing these devices because there ARE problems that arise and each must be solved individually. Quite a few of our early users, who no longer stay in touch may have been folks who gave up and lost interest. Pity. They probably would have benefitted from calling us and discussing their concerns and working with us. But we didn't originally include that in the price of the broadcaster (cosmic pipe). We're committed to solving any problems, however, so there's some folks who call us three or four times a month. We work with that, and though it costs us time and energy, it helps us learn too and we benefit in the long run. So we're committed. Since we're serious about what we're doing we can't HELP but be committed. On the one hand it's our obligation. On the other it's our education. In the meantime we have to pay the bills and we have to charge for our services. So try a broadcaster and see a good year happen. I think you'll be pleased and be chuckling at the inputs your chemical neighbors on the road along your farm are paying for and then paying for again the next year in hidden costs. Hidden cost are still costs--they're just not on your balance sheet or P&L summary. You pay them, of course. It's universal law--inviolate. This is rank propaganda and commercialism. I'm selling etheric field broadcasters that apply the full compliment of ALL the BD preps, including the new BD horn clays, to 500 or more acres per broadcaster per year for a rather modest fee (which I'll at least refrain from mentioning here). We all got here from a discussion of hayfield management. This, is part and parcel of hayfield management. You want your hayfield to thrive? Go for it. Hayfields are supposed to thrive. Many don't, but they should. Manage your nutrients and get good life energies cooking and they will. This is the guts of agriculture. This hayfield management is where all the other surplusses come from. I can't explain myself in a few paragraphs or a few chapters. Agriculture can thrive. It can. Believe it. In the face of pollution and development and all the poisons being put down, it still can thrive. It can. I caan show you where it does. It's going to take people doing it to make it happen so that "it can" turns into "it does." That's pretty simple. That's as straightforward as I know how to get. Best, ***** Learning? What a puzzle? It's not memory nor repitition. All I've learned took no time, But the living up to it's been my whole life. And I don't teach, though my efforts may lead to learning. Sadly, what I know doesn't transfer, it dies with me. If I skillfully indicate, some things pass and live anew. But learning is up to them/us. Whoever they/we are. There's no teachers. Nothing's taught nor can be. But there are learners--which is why When students are ready teachers arise, amazingly, Even in dessert solititude. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 6 20:37:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA11004 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:37:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA06512; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:23:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06430 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:22:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.138] (pm3shep1-163-20.intrepid.net [209.190.163.20]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA03862 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:24:05 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:27:30 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: #508 and Brown Rot Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1275 I spoke to Hugh Courtney this afternoon (a voicemail exchange). Hugh encourages the use of 'fresh' 508 directly on the fruit and the use of 501. He didn't specify how to apply the 501, but my impression was to apply it onto the fruit also. I've mowed under the trees and will apply BC tomorrow evening also. I was going to apply sulphur today, but the directions say to not use sulphur when the air temp excedes 85F and we've had, what, 105 today here in "Health Valley," home of the Washington families? How are you viticulturists dealing with fungal problems, both preventative and curative? Thanks -Allan Balliett 'You are what you ate ate.' From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jul 7 09:37:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA20283 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06770; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06659 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.137.149] (max3-7.stc.net [208.210.132.7]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA03289 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:27:54 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: OFF: [Fwd: Grapetalk E-zine #20] Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1276 >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >THE GRAPETALK.COM E-ZINE # 20 > >A free e-mail newsletter provided by http://www.grapetalk.com to help >keep professionals in the vineyard industry informed. > >( Copyright 1999 Grapetalk.com ) > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >July 5, 1999 **** Issue 20 **** >Cryolite on grapes/Fluoride in wines > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Sponsor Message: > >Attention all Grape Growers !!!!! > >The true value of the site Grapetalk.com >is the "FORUM" area and your comments >about the products you use and buy. > >So stop by the "coffee shop" and talk to other growers > >http://www.grapetalk.com > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > >......... This Weeks Article .......... >Cryolite on grapes/Fluoride in wines - A guide for growers and vintners to >determine optimum cryolite applications on grapevines >by >Gwynn Sawyer Ostrom > >INTRODUCTION > > This pamphlet is designed to help growers and vintners determine >optimum Cryolite applications. Over the past six years, there has been >concern about fluoride levels in wines, which has been linked to Cryolite >use in the vineyard. A wine fluoride limit set by the European >organization O.I.V. has forced wineries to reevaluate their winemaking >procedures and growers to reassess their vineyard practices to produce >exportable wines that meet the limitation. > A 3 part-per-million (ppm) fluoride limit currently exists for U.S. >wines exported to European Economic Community (E.E.C.) countries. Fluoride >is a common element that comes from soils and water. It also comes from >other sources, such as chemical inputs. Chemicals that can affect fluoride >in wines have been scrutinized because they are the easiest to identify, >isolate, and therefore control. Research at California State University, >Fresno has shown that certain applications of Cryolite can significantly >increase the amount of fluoride in wines. > The information provided in this pamphlet describes the relationship >between Cryolite and fluoride. A chart is included as a tool to help >growers and wineries predict fluoride levels based on Cryolite application >rates and timing. > >THE PROBLEM > > In 1989, the O.I.V. decreased the tolerance of fluoride from 3 ppm >to 1 ppm in wines exported to E.E.C. countries. Negotiations between the >U.S. and O.I.V. resulted in an agreement that the tolerance would be >reconsidered if research substantiated its reinstatement to 3 ppm. A final >decision by the O.I.V. was to be made in 1996. > Cryolite, with an active ingredient of sodium alumnofluoraminate, is >an insecticide used primarily in the San Joaquin Valley to control western >grapeleaf skeletonizer, omnivorous leaf roller, and orange tortrix. >Fluoride is part of Cryolite's active ingredient. Cryolite applications >were thought to cause increased fluoride levels, which led to wines with >unacceptable levels of fluoride for export. In addition, high fluoride >levels in must can lead to winemaking difficulties, such as stuck >fermentations and undesirable flavors and other aroma characteristics. > From 1990 through 1994, California State University, Fresno >researchers studied Cryolite application rates and their timing to observe >the effect on fluoride in wines. This five-year study contains data on >hand- and machine-harvested grapes, including red and white varieties, >from vineyards throughout the San Joaquin Valley. > >THE SOLUTION > > Our research has concluded that, depending upon timing and rate, >Cryolite does have an effect on the level of fluoride in wines. Machine >harvesting does not appear to affect fluoride content. Multiple >applications of Cryolite during the growing season significantly increase >fluoride in wines. Therefore, Cryolite application rate and timing are >critical to ensure adequate insect control and minimize fluoride residues. > The following chart shows rates, timings, varieties, and fluoride >ranges expected from specific applications. The chart is listed by rate >(in pounds active ingredient (a.i.) per acre) and timing of application. >Fluoride levels may vary from year to year and from location to location, >depending on the applicator, the amount of rainfall, other vineyard >applications, and the local water and soil conditions. Nevertheless, the >chart predicts fluoride levels that serve as a starting point in >estimating fluoride in a specific vineyard. The vineyard manager and >winemaker should look at each case individually, and, ideally, monitor >fluoride levels over several years to determine an average expected >fluoride level for that specific vineyard. > >*********************************** > >SPONSOR MESSAGE > >KALIGREEN(r) >Contact Fungicide for Powdery Mildew > >Kaligreen is a micro-encapsulated potassium bicarbonate formulation. > >Over 40,000 acres treated in 1998 > >See your local farm chemical dealer >Or Visit the site >http://www.montereychemical.com >e-mail jirvine@lightspeed.net > >*********************************** >For example, if the target spray program is 6 pounds at bloom, find the 6 >lb bloom section on the left-hand side of the chart. Working from left to >right in that section, locate the bars associated with the 6 lb bloom >rate. Find the grape variety in question, and follow along the top or >bottom scale to determine the fluoride range for that variety. In our >tests, spraying Zinfandel at the 6 lb bloom rate produced wines with >fluoride levels of 0.4 to 1.2 ppm. A 6 lb bloom application of Cryolite on >Barbera produced wine fluoride levels of 0.1 to 1.4 ppm. > If the variety to be sprayed is not listed for a chosen spray >schedule, use the example shown on the chart for that specific rate and >timing to get a general idea of fluoride levels. Red wine varieties may >produce higher levels of fluoride than white wine varieties because of >extended skin contact time during the winemaking process. > It is important to recognize that there will be some low level of >fluoride in wines, even in wines made from grapes that were not treated >with Cryolite. Research at California State University, Fresno has shown >that fluoride levels in wine produced from grapes not treated with >Cryolite can range from 0.1 to 1.6 ppm, depending upon location and >variety. > Cryolite manufacturers and wineries currently recommend a 6 pound >prebloom application. This rate and timing appear to produce levels well >below 3 ppm fluoride, and control of insects is adequate. If additional >insect control is needed, Bacillus thurengensis (B.t.) products should be >applied. > As long as the O.I.V. allows a 3 ppm limit, most growers and >vintners should have acceptable fluoride control with Cryolite >applications of 6 pounds per acre at or before bloom. According to our >research, a 6 pound prebloom or bloom application produces wine with >fluoride levels well within the 3 ppm O.I.V.-accepted range. An 8 pound >bloom rate causes fluoride levels to approach 3 ppm, so it should be >considered with caution. Although the maximum allowable label rate per >year is 20 pounds ai/acre, we do not advise exceeding bloom or prebloom >rates, or making multiple applications. Insect control may be improved, >but wine fluoride levels will rise above the 3 ppm limit. > The grower and vintner should work out a mutually acceptable spray >schedule to insure good insect control and to minimize wine fluoride. The >chart can help estimate fluoride levels based on Cryolite application >rates and timing. > >THE LINK: >http://www.atinet.org/cati/verc/rese/96/960601/index.html > >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >Remember that http://www.grapetalk.com is the Internet site to exchange >information about grape growing. > >Don't Forget about the Grape Grower "FORUM" ........ >......... Join in on discussions on grape growing > > > > >The contents of this newsletter are provided as a service of > >http://www.grapetalk.com > >the Internet site dedicated to the free flow of information between >professionals in the vineyard industry. Grapetalk.com makes no warranties, >either expressed or implied, about the accuracy of the contents of the >newsletter. > > >If you know anybody interested in receiving this newsletter, feel free >to forward it to them. > >To sign up for this newsletter send an e-mail to >ezine@grapetalk.com and request your name be added to the list. > >To remove your name from this e-zine list send an e-mail >to ezine@grapetalk.com and request your name be removed. > >Send any comments and suggestions to >webmaster@grapetalk.com > ***** Learning? What a puzzle? It's not memory nor repitition. All I've learned took no time, But the living up to it's been my whole life. And I don't teach, though my efforts may lead to learning. Sadly, what I know doesn't transfer, it dies with me. If I skillfully indicate, some things pass and live anew. But learning is up to them/us. Whoever they/we are. There's no teachers. Nothing's taught nor can be. But there are learners--which is why When students are ready teachers arise, amazingly, Even in dessert solititude. Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jul 8 02:23:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA08748 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 02:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA18500; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 02:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net (sys32.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.32]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA18309 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 02:05:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.211.141.206] (wt-d6-159.wt.net [208.211.141.159]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA16928; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 01:13:47 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: lamu@pop3.wt.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00b801bec174$3ea1a2a0$a34b2e9c@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 01:01:53 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Andy R Subject: Re: Off: subtle energies water treatment Cc: "Julie" , Hugh Lovel Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1277 Julie, It is very amusing to me that I just happen to come across this site also tonite while I was looking for ... I completely forgot oh yeah a ticket on the WEB, so I have no ideal how I verged .... oh yeah, I went into the newsgroups and then... ok ok enuf already, so I found this incredible post on Drunvalo whose page I have checked out because of the Sacred Geometry .... Then I was going to check and see about posting it to B-D Now because I hadn't yet seen your post and then I was catching up on the B-D list and I saw your post and thought ahh how about that. I would like to hear what Hugh L thinks about this water etc... Cheers, Andy >All this wonderful water talk! Seems appropriate that the resident Cancer >would be facilitating such discussion! > >For your interest, enlightenment, entertainment or whatever function it >serves, below is an interesting article from >http://www.transformacomm.com/water/watertalk.htm regarding more magic >water. How interesting that healing, via the water element, is coming into >our consciousness from different sources. Would be really interesting to >have samples of each & run experiments... > >Love Julie > > >Mother Earth - The New Consciousness and Sacred Water >A Talk presented by Drunvalo Melchezidek > >Introduction >Drunvalo Melchezidek gave this talk on May 1st '99 at the Wesak '99 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jul 8 14:47:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18316 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:47:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25227; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25117 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d140.infoserve.net [199.175.157.140]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA09506 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001701bec96f$72354880$8c9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: OFF / GEN7-7 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:19:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1278 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Thursday, July 08, 1999 8:51 AM Subject: GEN7-7 >International Trade Reporter > >Volume 16 Number 26 Wednesday, June 30, 1999 Page 1089 ISSN 1523-2816 > >Europe In Brief Agriculture > >U.S. Considering Filing Complaint with WTO Over EU Barriers to GMO Imports, >Aide Says > > >The United States is considering filing a formal complaint with the World >Trade Organization, leading to possible U.S. retaliation, over the European >Union's continuing failure to approve imports of U.S. genetically modified >agricultural products, or GMOs, the chief U.S. trade negotiator said June >24. > >__________________________________________________________ > >Environment ENS -- Environment News Service > >WASHINGTON, DC, July 6, 1999 (ENS) - An international convention on >biodiversity has declined to call for substantial restrictions on the use >of bioengineered sterile seeds, often called terminator seeds. This lack of >strong action is leading some critics to warn that the seeds could cripple >small farmers and jeopardize the ability of developing countries to ensure >reliable food supplies. > >The United Nations Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD) adopted a >resolution at a Montreal meeting ending June 25 calling for a cautious >approach to the use of the seeds, which experts say will not be on the >market for several years. > >But the CBD also noted that countries that refuse to buy the seeds run the >risk of economic sanctions from countries selling the seeds. > >There are 175 countries that have ratified the treaty, but the United >States is not one of them, Although it signed in 1993, the U.S. is not a >Party to the treaty and had only observer status at the Montreal meeting. >Still, the United States has a strong interest in keeping this sterile seed >biotechnology free of restrictions because U.S. companies, such as Delta >Pine & Lands of Mississippi, hold patents on the technique. > >Representatives of the Rural Advancement Foundation International (RAFI), >an international civil society organization headquartered in Winnipeg, >Canada, say economic sanctions could force developing countries into >dependence on genetically engineered crops, thus reducing worldwide >biodiversity. > >The CBDs scientific arm, the Subsidiary Body on Scientific, Technical and >Technological Advice (SBSTTA) met in Montreal from June 21 to June 25 to >discuss a number of issues, including new technology that can control the >expression of a plants genes. > >The new bioscience, called genetic use restriction technologies (GURTs), >allows companies to create plants that grow to maturity but produce sterile >seeds. Seed companies could therefore prevent farmers from gathering seeds >from mature crops and planting them the following season. Instead, farmers >would be forced to buy new seeds each year. > >The companies say the GURTs, popularly known as terminator seeds, will >protect their research and development investments in genetically modified >(GM) crops. Biotechnology companies such as Monsanto are making >modifications to crops to add resistance to herbicides, increased shelf >life or better nutritional value. These modifications can be linked to >GURTs, preventing farmers from buying modified crops once and using the >seeds for future plantings. > >The United States representative to the Montreal meeting noted for the >report that the U.S. could not associate itself with any implicit call for >a moratorium on testing or commercialization of GURTs. > >Terminator seeds could have unpleasant side effects, both commercial and >biological. Pat Mooney, executive director of RAFI, says his group has >uncovered 31 patents on terminator genes that cause seed sterilization in >the final stages of plant growth. Nearly every large agricultural and >biotechnology company has a patent he says, raising the possibility that >every seed sold could someday come with a terminator tag. > >"Only three companies were marketing GM seeds last year," Mooney told ENS. >"This year, the global market for GM seeds will be dominated by six or >seven companies that will all have patents for terminator technology." > >When asked if farmers were likely to accept terminator seeds, Mooney said, >"I think it's unavoidable. Farmers are not stupid, but farmers will not >have choices." Competition in the marketplace will force farmers to choose >seeds that promise the highest crop yields, which are often GM varieties. > >Farmers could become dependent on the biotechnology companies for an >ongoing supply of the terminator seeds. "What happens if a company decides >one area is not a profitable marketplace?" asks Mooney. Moving away from >crops with viable seeds could threaten developing countries ability to >insure a reliable food supply from one year to the next, he says. > >Biologically, using new seeds each year will reduce the diversity of the >crops. If farmers are planting only a small variety of modified seeds, and >these seeds cannot exchange genes with nearby fields through cross >pollination, eventually the gene pool for the crops could be severely >restricted. A restricted, inbred gene pool can be wiped out by the arrival >of a new disease or predator. > >There is also no guarantee that the modified genes would not spread to >related plants. Though experts do not consider the scenario likely, the >specter looms that other plants could take up the terminator genes and go >extinct in a single season. > >....... > >Recent Revelations About Problems with Bioengineerred Foods > > FROM: >Alliance for Bio-Integrity >P.O. Box 110, Iowa City, IA 52244-0110 >Tel: (515) 472-5554; Fax: (515) 472-6431 www.bio-integrity.org > >Contact: Steven Druker (515) 472-5554, > or Bob Roth (515) 469-5081 > > Lawsuit Uncovers Disagreement Within FDA Over Safety of Biotech Foods > >Agency Contradicted Own Experts in Approving Genetically Engineered Foods > >Misrepresented Facts in Order to Promote U.S. Biotech Industry > >Statement by Steven M. Druker, JD, executive director of the Alliance for >Bio-Integrity, coordinator of the lawsuit against the FDA to obtain >mandatory safety testing and labeling of genetically engineered foods, and >an attorney on the case (in collaboration with the legal department of the >Center for Food Safety in Washington, D.C.) > >Prying Out the Facts Through Litigation > >In May 1998, a coalition of public interest groups, scientists, and >religious leaders filed a landmark lawsuit against the U.S. Food and Drug >Administration to obtain mandatory safety testing and labeling of all >genetically engineered foods (Alliance for Bio-Integrity, et. al. v. >Shalala). Nine eminent life scientists joined the coalition in order to >emphasize the degree to which they think FDA policy is scientifically >unsound and morally irresponsible. Now, the FDA's own files confirm how >well-founded are their concerns. The FDA was required to deliver copies of >these files--totalling over 44,000 pages--to the plaintiffs' attorneys. > >False Claims and a Policy at Odds with the Law > >The FDA's records reveal it declared genetically engineered foods to be >safe in the face of broad disagreement from its own experts -- all the >while claiming a broad scientific consensus supported its stance. Internal >reports and memoranda disclose: (1) agency scientists repeatedly cautioned >that foods produced through recombinant DNA technology entail different >risks than do their conventionally produced counterparts and (2) that this >input was consistently disregarded by the bureaucrats who crafted the >agency's current policy, which treats bioengineered foods the same as >natural ones. > >Besides contradicting the FDA's claim that its policy is science-based, >this evidence shows the agency violated the U.S. Food, Drug and Cosmetic >Act in allowing genetically engineered foods to be marketed without >testing on the premise that they are generally recognized as safe by >qualified experts. > >FDA Scientists Protest Attempt to Equate Genetic Engineering with >Conventional Breeding > >The FDA admits it is operating under a directive "to foster" the U.S. >biotech industry; and this directive advocates the premise that >bioengineered foods are essentially the same as others. However, the >agency's attempts to bend its policy to conform with this premise met >strong resistance from its own scientists, who repeatedly warned that >genetic engineering differs from conventional practices and entails a >unique set of risks. Numerous agency experts protested that drafts of the >Statement of Policy were ignoring the recognized potential for >bioengineering to produce unexpected toxins and allergens in a different >manner and to a different degree than do conventional methods. > >For instance, Dr. Louis Priybl of the FDA Microbiology Group wrote, "There >is a profound difference between the types of unexpected effects from >traditional breeding and genetic engineering which is just glanced over in >this document." He added that several aspects of gene splicing "...may be >more hazardous." > >Dr. Linda Kahl, an FDA compliance officer, objected that the agency was >"...trying to fit a square peg into a round hole ... [by] trying to force >an ultimate conclusion that there is no difference between foods modified >by genetic engineering and foods modified by traditional breeding >practices." She stated: "The processes of genetic engineering and >traditional breeding are different, and according to the technical experts >in the agency, they lead to different risks." > >Moreover, Dr. Jim Maryanski, the FDA Biotechnology Coordinator, >acknowledged there is no consensus about the safety of genetically >engineered foods in the scientific community at large, and FDA scientists >advised they should undergo special testing, including toxicological tests. > >Misrepresenting the Facts in Order to Approve the Foods > >Nonetheless, so strong was the FDA's motivation to promote the biotech >industry that it not only disregarded the warnings of its own scientists >about the unique risks of gene-spliced foods, it dismissed them and took a >public position that was the opposite. Its official policy asserts: "The >agency is not aware of any information showing that foods derived by these >new methods differ from other foods in any meaningful or uniform way...." >Thus, although agency experts advised that genetically engineered foods >should be subjected to special testing, the bureaucrats in charge of the >policy proclaimed these foods require no testing at all. > >Violating Federal Law > >Besides violating basic canons of ethics, the FDA's behavior flagrantly >violates the U.S. Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act, which mandates that new >food additives be established safe through testing prior to marketing. >While the FDA admits that bioengineered organisms fall under this >provision, it claims they are exempt from testing because they are >"generally recognized as safe" (GRAS), even though it knows they are not >recognized as safe even by its own scientists let alone by a consensus in >the scientific community. > >Further, the statute prescribes that additives like those in bioengineered >foods can only be recognized as safe on the basis of tests that have >established their harmlessness. But no such tests exist for gene-spliced >foods. So, although the GRAS exemption was intended to permit marketing of >substances whose safety has already been demonstrated through testing, the >FDA is using it to circumvent testing and to approve substances based >largely on conjecture--conjecture that is dubious in the eyes of its own >and many other experts. > >Consequently, every genetically engineered food in the U.S. is on the >market illegally and should be recalled for rigorous safety testing. The >FDA has deliberately unleashed a host of potentially harmful foods onto >American dinner tables in blatant violation of U.S. law. > >For more information about the lawsuit and the risks of genetically >engineered foods, see the website of the Alliance for Bio-Integrity >www.bio-integrity.org > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 11 11:56:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14818 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:56:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14072; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:40:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13763 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:37:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip054.computer.net [140.186.252.54]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA16759 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:38:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:39:49 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: July 11, 1999 - July 17, 1999 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA13764 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1279 Calendar of the Soul [July 11, 1999 - July 17, 1999] Fifteenth Week (July 14-20) I feel enchanted weaving Of spirit within outer glory. In dullness of the senses It has enwrapt my being In order to bestow the strength Which in its narrow bounds my I Is powerless to give itself. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Ich fühle wie verzaubert Im Weltenschein des Geistes Weben: Es hat in Sinnesdumpfheit Gehüllt mein Eigenwesen, Zu schenken mir die Kraft: Die, ohnmächtig sich selbst zu geben, Mein Ich in seinen Schranken ist. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+15 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 11 15:47:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17080 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:47:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24896; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24758 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:30:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.81.140]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990711193401.XCAM112692.mta2-rme@garudix>; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:34:01 +1200 Message-ID: <3788F1A3.2646@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:33:55 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Willis , bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: egroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1280 I have recently found a sight, eGroups.com that provides free email lists complete with all sorts of features like polling. So if you are a person who emails lists of people this would be an easy way without attaching everyones email address to your mail. We at the Garuda BD Institute have set up the nzgeinfo@eGroups.com list for people in NZ wanting to stay in touch with the latest NZ GE news. To subscribe, send a message to nzgeinfo-subscribe@egroups.com cheers Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 12 19:11:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA07415 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:11:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA24545; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24398 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:52:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.99] (pm3shep2-163-99.intrepid.net [209.190.163.99]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA21638 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:53:52 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:49:35 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: For those who use the Preps: JPI Recommendations Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1281 ={KB0kxEwC>pX7N$I>Z2FRwFc '']s]>I^xLPq1 kK$^i;GbvFg;-|n%'4'uu1 IeTHy>D(uOW!*s:X XKc;zE rUv3q@#JwN+ Tg[8=envV[4@4NormalCJOJPJQJmH _PID_GUID'AN{A846B400-3863-11D3-8D8C-8DE1EAD6F871}8a8K`|`5@ ;B8Ul8a8K`|`5@ ;B;B<`UUs8cUUB<`s8cBx<`s8cBda|^p|c^pTd(4|^p<`TP*||8cB,a|Fp|cFpTc@.|FpTW?A8aHBA8a FHKA8|D8c|E8c|Dc8c|Edx|t8a8|u<8a8p?,@;<|}PHP`8aHK]A8f8bfppaHCA8aFH K5AB8pB|#x8|+x,8@sA8!|aN |!!||zx|3x}Cx}, |~x;AW >, @@8`xKcI`T`?A(xHCA|x(A8E(@HW >, A<8bM(A,x88HIA|x(A8E(@4W >, @(xHBA|x(A8E(@ 8`B\8C28488xD8GFH`8||D|~x8~|EC4:,AAH8``~8`~8`~<`H~~ 8`~&8`~.4( A8$Tc:|.|N C4,AAa(@h 8a*HCAA|`5AcE|@ xBW>,@$|888xHDqA|~xB(W>, @|8xH=A|~x(@ 8`B|xH:AW>, @x88HBABxH9AW>,8A8~E~D(A 8xD8H`xX8!P|N |!|xF(Ac*H8AE(Ax88HB!ABxH8QAX8!P|N |!|x(@ 8`BD(A BpE(Ax88HBAB$|5AxH= AxH9mA84D8T|#xX8!P|N |!|x(APD(A@E(Ax88HBABxH8A8DX8!P|N |!|xx|#x|;x}Cx;rh;M~D(@ 8`4H6A~~84,@L8bc(A ;AB4` ccc 4,A c@Bcc~c(A 8`Bs?4pcA ;>B;4,A ~A4,@$x88H`dB4p@8#x88K`|dxxxH`dBP~|4cccc |@4pA xx8HI`d~(A~cHAa>4pAa>88H>A;a89(|DxFx'x9@ (A9!>jxK||x(@<~(A$~cH;A~cHQ`8`B ~8cH6A4,AA$}H85A~0B88bMcH8A~8|t8c"8|u~0~8|D8c|E8|D8c|E~H6A|`xd|x8H?UA !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;=>?@ABCEFGHIJKMNOPQRSVRoot Entrymmmmmmmmmmmmmm Fmmm!5kpXm1TablemmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmT>| @,x6~x;`d;:BT>|f4%4B|*|&p|:d~x`4|$xT>|:`P:~x`4T<|:|*~x`4T:|:|"~x`4dT8;:{P|`x,8c@ ~`x|5:s@(A~xH)ABG(A>;`8Root Entrymmmmmmmmmmmmmm Fmmmtpbm1Tablemmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?@ABC[^_`ac]dfghijklnopqrstuvwxDocumentSummaryInformationmmm8 mmmmmmmmmmmm/mCompObjmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmXmmObjectPoolmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!5kp!5kpmmm m0Tablemmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm m !"#$%&'()*+,-.012345689:;<=F/55789,56:Unknownbruce bumbargerSYz*.pzr~&2DP "" $ C E 79ac t v T V y { U W (*npR\02.0PRmo /vx+:nwLN & GN 9!?!!!c"i"##B#F#''''++X,c,,,--..h.t.0011 1 ''))))**-. 1bruce bumbarger"Macintosh HD:Desktop Folder:Hugh J@11 11(1110@1v0Rk@GTimes New Roman5Symbol3 Arial3Times"qhc7&c7&/(W\$20dI2Hugh Jbruce bumbargerbruce bumbargerx8H88HK|`5A.+,D.+, FMicrosoft Word DocumentNB6WWord.Document.8c8cTaBaB~xK`8rPo[4@4NormalCJOJPJQJmH _PID_GUID'AN{A846B400-3863-11D3-8D8C-8DE1EAD6F871}8K`8`HrAxOh+'0d , 8DLT\'Hugh Jfughbruce bumbargerrucNormalubruce bumbarger2ucMicrosoft Word 8.0d@e@8@ 8/(x8K`B(8<8<8`HmUAT`?A8<8aA8HpAx@8@K`|`5@n8HT9`x8HQ`8`H4`8bw|c 5jbjbSS x111]"$vvvv $Ftvvvvvv,r-6t66tlttF0vjtHugh J. Courtney Recommendations for Working with Crops, Sequential Spraying, and Ashing (For EDT/U.S.A.) July, August and September, 1999 in the BD Farm or Garden The times indicated are those adjudged by me to be the first choice periods for working the soil, applying the biodynamic preparations, sowing seed, or working with plants in general. Since not everyone will have an opportunity to take advantage of these periods, or will need to be working in the garden at other times, for daily indications please refer to Stella Natura 1999 or to Working with the Stars 1999. The Sequential Spray technique is described in Applied Biodynamics, Issue #6 and #25 (available from JPI for $5.00 each). For greater details on the ashing technique, please consult Work on the Land and the Constellations by Maria Thun. All publications mentioned are available from either JPI or the Biodynamic Association. In 1999, we will need to take into account another ongoing series of occultations (i.e., when one body of the solar system hides or occults another when passing in front of it and blocking the view from the Earth) involving Neptune and Uranus. Throughout 1999, beginning in April, there will be ten times consecutively when the Moon occults first Neptune and then Uranus, usually on two consecutive days. While such a series is somewhat more frequent than the relatively unusual series of occultations of Saturn and Jupiter we saw in 1997 and 1998, these occultations in 1999 can be expected to have a disrupting influence on plant growth and weather patterns as well. Occultations preclude any garden/soil/plant work from twelve hours before an occultation to six hours after the event. In the month of July, we will also experience a Lunar eclipse, followed two weeks later by a Solar eclipse in August. During July, August and September, the following occultations are listed: July 1 Moon occults Uranus @ 10:25 pm July 28 Moon occults Neptune @ 3:31 am July 28 Lunar eclipse @ 7:25 am July 29 Moon occults Uranus @ 2:50 am August 9 Moon occults Mercury @ 11:01 pm August 11 Solar eclipse @ 7:08 am August 24 Moon occults Neptune @ 10:05 am August 25 Moon occults Uranus @ 8:33 am September 20 Moon occults Neptune @ 5:59 pm September 21 Moon occults Uranus @ 3:56 pm Best Root Periods Wednesday, June 30 @ 8:00 pm through Friday, July 2 @ 8:00 pm (Avoid two hours before and after Moons lower nodal point @ 5:00 pm on July 1.) Wednesday, July 28 @ 7:00 pm through Friday, July 30 @ 2:00 am Friday, August 13 @ 11:00 pm through Tuesday, August 17 @ 7:00 am Monday, September 20 @ 2:00 pm through Wednesday, September 22 @ 6:00 pm Best Fruit Periods Wednesday, July 14 @ 10:00 pm through Saturday, July 17 @ 12:00 pm Tuesday, August 3 @ 4:00 pm through Thursday, August 5 @ 8:00 am Tuesday, September 7 @ 4:00 pm through Friday, September 10 @ 6:00 am Best Seed Periods Wednesday, July 14 @ 10:00 pm through Saturday, July 17 @ 12:00 pm Wednesday, August 11 @ 7:00 pm through Friday, August 13 @ 9:00 pm Tuesday. September 7 @ 4:00 pm =================================================================== SUBSCRIBE to Our Hot Release Information Lists! Know the latest releases!! Get the BEST prices!! TORI AMOS LIST: igg@igg.com SUBJECT=SUBSCRIBE TORI-L You MUST include your FULL NAME and SHIPPING ADDRESS in the body of the message New Arrival/PRe-Order/ SALE Lists: igg@igg.com SUBJECT=SUBSCRIBE IGG-L ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CUSTOMER SERVICE: maura@intrepid.net Please Check Home Page for latest lists and info! http://www.igg.com =================================================================== How To Order Information: http://igg.com/howtoorder.html How To Pre-Order Information http://igg.com/HowToP.html =================================================================== INTERGALACTIC GARAGE Compact Disks and WorldWide Music Collectibles 110 West German Street POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 (304) 876-6818 / (304) 876-9414 FAX Email = igg@igg.com HOME PAGE: http://www.igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 13 10:18:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17145 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:18:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09703; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:59:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from online.dct.com (root@online.dct.com [204.29.185.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09529 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:56:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wmh (dial293.dct.com [206.230.195.244]) by online.dct.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA25128 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:58:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <003401becd38$df0a2800$c9c3e6ce@wmh.dct.com> From: "Wm Hurrle" To: Subject: Re: RoundUp Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:05:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1282 Dear Kirk et al, I have the border of five acres now in grasses that I want to plant trees and bushes in. Two strategies: After baling the hay on the field and before barning it, I took two or three bales and clumped them together in places where I wanted to plant. By next spring, the bales will have smothered the sod and I can plant through the mulch. The other strategy was suggested by Steve Diver of ATTRA. Black plastic is nasty because it deteriorates so quickly and litters. It works well. There is another woven plastic sheeting that doesn't break down, lasts for years, and is used to create planting beds and to mulch for tree plantings. Though it is a plastic with god knows what chemistry at the end of its life it remains intact and can be landfilled. It is from DeWitt Co. in Sikeston, MO 63501. I paid about $120 for a 6' x 300' roll designed for vegetable gardening. There are other versions of this agrifabric. Sheep won't eat thistle. A neighbor has over 200 of them in a pasture they have cropped to golf green length, except for the towers of thistle. I don't know about other critters. I've spent tiresome days pulling it up by the roots and certainly will try the 501 at noon BD control. Regards, Wm Hurrle From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jul 14 23:39:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11163 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17678; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:23:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17524 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:21:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.26] (pm3shep1-163-26.intrepid.net [209.190.163.26]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA32490 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:22:29 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:26:19 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Greg Shultz, Dan Hobbs, NEW FARMS and the Grain Coop Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1283 Anyone from NEW FARMS on BD Now!? Anyone familiar with the New Farms Grain Coop? Was there a story about this in BIODYNAMICS? Any help on this w.b. appreciated. Thanks -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jul 15 18:17:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA05163 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21807; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:02:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19602 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:28:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.65] (pm3shep2-163-74.intrepid.net [209.190.163.74]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA29637 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:30:08 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:34:00 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: A Favor, Please Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1284 A substantial portion of the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference will be directed at developing solutions for small scale grain production. Eugene Canales of Ferarri, who is pulling this segment together, asked me to find a copy of a 1977 RODALE BOOK by GENE LOGSDON called "Small Scale Grain-Raising" I've already checked the usual databases on the net and am not satisfied with the results. If you know of where there is a copy of this book for sale, have acopy to loan, trade, sell or donate, please contact me as soon as possible. Thanks so much!! Your humble moderator, Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA BIODYNAMICS Now! Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 igg@igg.com PS If you have something to share about 'growing your own,' please contact me about that also!! (Organic feeds and flours, that is!!!) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jul 16 01:24:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA12263 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:24:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA17390; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:02:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA17284 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:00:03 -0400 (EDT) From: NEILLCO@aol.com Received: from NEILLCO@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id hGMBa19817 (14433) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:30:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8073ba39.24c00f72@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:30:42 EDT Subject: Check out "Amazon.com - Query Results" To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1285 Click Here: Amazon.com - Query Results From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jul 16 03:58:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA13587 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:58:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA22789; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:42:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA22757 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-87.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.87]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA03258 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:44:06 +1000 Message-ID: <002c01becf5e$c2b6fc00$57431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Where is everyone? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:52:04 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1286 Allan, I haven't had any mail through from BD NOW for a few days now, until this message of yours came through.Had the last main lot about the brown rot on 5/7/99 and one from Hugh 7/7 and Glen 12/7 and from you on 13/7/99. Have they all gone quiet again or is there a problem? Cheryl Kemp Education & Advisory Coordinator Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, 16 July 1999 8:05 am Subject: A Favor, Please >A substantial portion of the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and >Gardening Conference will be directed at developing solutions for small >scale grain production. Eugene Canales of Ferarri, who is pulling this >segment together, asked me to find a copy of a 1977 RODALE BOOK by GENE >LOGSDON called "Small Scale Grain-Raising" > >I've already checked the usual databases on the net and am not satisfied >with the results. If you know of where there is a copy of this book for >sale, have acopy to loan, trade, sell or donate, please contact me as soon >as possible. > >Thanks so much!! > >Your humble moderator, > >Allan Balliett >Claymont Farm CSA >BIODYNAMICS Now! >Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 >FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 >igg@igg.com > >PS If you have something to share about 'growing your own,' please contact >me about that also!! (Organic feeds and flours, that is!!!) > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jul 16 17:32:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA00786 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:32:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06717; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06488 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:15:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d148.infoserve.net [199.175.157.148]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA25114 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000d01becfd0$f630e7e0$949dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF/ weed resistance, etc. other points / Fw: GEN7-16 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:19:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1287 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 1:37 PM Subject: GEN7-16 >Here is a more detailed version of the report by Dr. Charles Benbrook > >Subject: B-GE: MOST POWERFUL EVIDENCE YET: GM CROPS FAILING > >Biotech is being sold around the world on the basis of a myriad of claims >and promises, almost all unproven. > >One of the most successful pieces of hype is that GE crops are producing >"bumper crops". Another assumption is that GE crops are being rapidly taken >up by American farmers because they're helping them compete economically. >Greatly reduced use of agrochemicals (and hence environmental benefits) is >a third major claim made for GE crops by the biotech industry. > >A very important new 28-page report, released 13th July, provides the most >powerful evidence to date of the full extent to which none of this is true >of Monsanto's flagship GE crop Roundup Ready soya. > >The report is by Dr Charles Benbrook, author of the book "Pest Management >at the Crossroads" and former Executive Director of the Board on >Agriculture for the US National Academy of Sciences. > >The report is: Evidence of the Magnitude and Consequences of the Roundup >Ready Soybean Yield Drag from University-Based Varietal Trials in 1998 > >It is accessible on the AgBioTech InfoNet website at > > >Unlike the recent USDA report which fails to directly compare yields and >chemical use in comparable circumstances, thus leaving many important >variables uncontrolled, this report reviews the results of a very large >number of carefully controlled university-based soybean varietal trials, >together with other data. > >Benbrook clearly shows that the problems with this technology are greater >than previously understood, as regards > >1. the extent of the yield drag > >averaging nearly 7% - even larger than emerged from the University of >Wisconsin study >(http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/wisconsinRRsoyatrials98.htm ) > >2. the increase in chemical use > >far from RR soybeans reducing chemical use, farmers have been using 2 to 5 >times more herbicide > >+ > >a degree of tolerance to Roundup is emerging in several key weed species, >contributing to chemical usage. > >3. the cost to the famer > >the yield drag plus technology fee are bad news for profitability imposing >"a sizable indirect tax" (can be over 12 percent of gross income per acre) > > >There are many other important points in this report which needs to be >read in full. But here's a little more detail on the above: > >**YIELDS** > >Under most conditions extensive evidence shows that RR (GE) soybeans >produce lower yields than could be produced if farmers planted comparable >but non-GE varieties. > >The report reviews the results of over 8,200 university-based soybean >varietal trials in 1998 and reaches these conclusions, among others, >regarding the magnitude of the RR soybean yield drag: > >*The yield drag between top RR varieties compared to top conventional >varieties averages 4.6 bushels per acre, or 6.7 percent. > >* In some areas of the Midwest, the best conventional variety on sale >produces yields on average 10 percent or more higher than comparable >Roundup Ready varieties sold by the same seed companies. > >**CHEMICAL USE AND PROFITABILITY** > >Regarding the often repeated claims that RR soybean systems are reducing >pesticide use and increasing grower profits, Benbrook's analysis shows that >RR soybean systems are "largely dependent on herbicides and hence are not >likely to reduce herbicide use or reliance. Claims otherwise are based on >incomplete information or analytically flawed comparisons that do not tell >the whole story." > >Benbrook notes the following, and we quote: > >* Farmers growing RR soybeans used 2 to 5 times more herbicide measured in >pounds applied per acre, compared to the other popular weed management >systems used on most soybean fields not planted to RR varieties in 1998. >RR herbicide use exceeds the level on many farms using multitactic >Integrated Weed Management systems by a factor of 10 or more. > >* There is clear evidence that Roundup use by farmers planting RR soybeans >has risen markedly in 1999 because of the emergence of a degree of >tolerance to Roundup in several key weed species, shifts in weeds toward >those less sensitive to Roundup, price cuts and aggressive marketing. > >[Elsewhere Benbrook has noted that many weed scientists expect such >resistance and the accompanying increased chemical use to keep on growing >for some time, aided by the recent extraordinary US price reductions in >pesticides, till growing RR soybeans finally becomes completely uneconomic] > >* Roundup use on soybeans may well double from 1998 levels within the next >few years... > >* The RR soybean yield drag and technology fee impose a sizable indirect >tax on the income of soybean producers, ranging from a few percent where RR >varieties work best to over 12 percent of gross income per acre. > >[Elsewhere Benbrook has written that GE soybeans are proving “the most >expensive soybean seed+weed management system in modern history"] > >It's interesting that independent research is finally starting to catch up >with GE crops in the US > >(For how these problems have been successfully hidden from US growers, see: >http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/gmlemmings.htm). > >In the UK independent trials are already underway. Reports of last year's >crop trials from the UK's National Institute of Agricultural Botany (NIAB) >show yields from GM winter oilseed rape and sugar beet were between 5-8% >less than high yielding conventional varieties (reported Farmers Weekly >(UK) for the 4th December 1998) A recent report of Institute of Arable Crop >Research (IACR) trials in the UK with GM beet, where Roundup was applied >late to try and reduce the damage to biodiversity from the use of a total >herbicide, gave a yield loss of "at least" 24%! > >........... >posted by Gaia -Tanya Green > >Subject: RE: Monsanto lost again in BRAZIL > >SOURCE: Angela Cordiero- Biodiversity Consultant Rio Grande do Sul Brazil > >DATE: 13/7/99 > >It was anounced yesterday that the Presidente of The Federal Court* >from >1st Region (Brasilia) of Brasil, Mr. Plauto Afonso da Silva Ribeiro said NO >to Monsanto's petition to anull the previous decision of Mr. Justice >Antonio Souza Prudente, who had refused permission for planting of Roundup >Ready Soybean in Brazil before Environment Impact Assessments had been >carried out. > > Monsanto presented its petition on 7 July. On Friday, 9 July the >President of TRF said NO, arguing that the relevance of this matter >requires more time to judge it carefully. > >However, the Courts and Judges in Brasil do not work in July. It means that >any further legal decisions will not be made before August. As indicated by >the Minister of Agriculture on his recent visit to the UK, it will be >impossible for Monsanto to sell Roundup Ready Seeds before the next >planting season. > > The Government Lawyers Service have not yet presented a petition to >challenge the Judge's decision . They will do so in August . > >........ > >A BBC front page report from July 14, 1999 > >US FARMERS FEAR CROP FALLOUT > >see website for full article: > > >In the rural idyll of America's agricultural states farmers are getting to >know the genetically altered crops they have been told will help them make >the most of their land. Their fields are providing the evidence that will >tell the world if the ambitious claims for biotechnology in agriculture are >coming true. > >The whole point of these crops is that they are supposed to help farmers >farm more cheaply. Suddenly they are under the spotlight. Consumers outside >the US have turned against GM food. The export market is disappearing fast >- US corn sales to Europe shrank from 70 million bushels in 1997 to just 3 >million last year. > >Mood change in the Mid-West > >Professor Bill Heffernan of the University of Missouri has spent 30 years >tracking rural change across the states. He says people round here fear GM >crops could end up costing them more not less. > >"Six months ago we thought that basically these products were going to be >accepted in the market - nobody thought otherwise and in fact it was just >assumed because nobody was challenging it. > >"Now, especially because number one what's happening in Europe and Japan >and other major consumer Nations that may refuse these >products, that's really gotten the farmers attention. > >"The farmers are really quite angry about it and they're quite confused >about it and many farmers just wish the whole thing would go away, we'd go >back the way it was a year ago and forget about all these products." > >.............. > >Wire Service: RTos (Reuters Online Service) > >Date: Fri, Jul 16, 1999 > >World May Go Non-GM Says Campaigner > >By Christopher Lyddon > >LONDON (Reuters) - World agriculture could still turn its back on >biotechnology according to one of the leaders of the organic movement. >"We're still saying we can have global agriculture without genetic >modification," Patrick Holden, director of the Soil Association, told >Reuters in a telephone interview. > >The Association promotes organic farming methods in Britain as well as >providing certification for organic products. > >Holden predicted a sharp rise in opposition to biotechnology among the >American public. "The informed minority of American public opinion is >strongly against GMOs," he said. "You don't get concerned about genetic >modification until you have the knowledge." > >The fact that European opposition had been so vocal was in itself making >American consumers question biotechnology, he said. "My prediction is that >the American public will reject GMO's, with massive opposition within a >year." > >..... > >next article posted by nlpwessex@bigfoot.com > >(this is just an excerp. For full article, see www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex > >Farmers Weekly 16 July 1999 > >Companies hang fire with GM seed in face of 'antis' > >By Jonathan Riley > >BIOTECH companies are not Inputting new genetically modified seed varieties >into the UK >approval procedure pipeline because of the ongoing anti-GM campaign, >according to representa- >tives from the biotechnology industry. ... > >Monsanto's technical manager Colin Merritt added: "It is getting to the >stage where we cannot carry out the research in this country and it may >mean that research will have to be carried out elsewhere in the EU." > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jul 16 17:40:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA29924 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:56:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA04409; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:41:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.mcn.org (this.is.a.lame.delegation.contact.best.internet [204.189.12.25] (may be forged)) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04127 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:37:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.189.8.140 (ha-2e-men-m076.mcn.org [204.189.8.140]) by mail.mcn.org (8.9.0/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA28703 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378F29AB.52A7@mcn.org> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:46:35 +0000 From: Kate Clarke Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Foxglove Farm (707) 937-4116 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Where is everyone? References: <002c01becf5e$c2b6fc00$57431ccb@cherylke> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1288 In the fields if your in my world. Crops growing beautifully but late for Northern California. Too much to do, unreliable help and friends and relations on summer vacations who think a small farm is quaint, HELP! Farming has to be one of the most total mind-body experiences a human can have. Two requirements. Hard drive and a desire to serve. One of my sweetest goats is sick after triplets. She retained a bit of uterus, enough to fester and the vet was out yesterday. My ten year old daughter told me last week she was getting sick, amazing child. The farm is a perfect enviornm,ent for children to learn. We are in the process of converting our garage into space for family day care and ultimatly a school. No profit yet this year with the 40k down payment leaving me strapped. Day Care will help to pay the bills through winter and provide a much needed service. Would love to hear from other farmers, esp. women going solo. Kate Clark, Foxglove Farm, Comptche Ca. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jul 17 11:01:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10152 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:01:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08136; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:47:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtfm.midcoast.com (root@dns.midcoast.com [206.26.226.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08093 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:46:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jpt (liberty-c-007.midcoast.com [208.153.20.107]) by rtfm.midcoast.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA00783 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:48:50 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990717104304.00881be0@midcoast.com> X-Sender: stgeorge@midcoast.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:43:04 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "John P. Thomas and Kathleen Barrett" Subject: Fito-Remediation In-Reply-To: <37779A86.57FA@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1289 Allan, I'm trying to track down one of the people who spoke at the BD conference in Claymont last fall. He gave a talk on fito-remediation. I am trying to find out which edible plants might take up mercury, arsenic, lead, and other heavy metals, and which plants don't. Here in Maine, like all other New England states, the rivers, inland lakes, and tidal ocean waters are all contaminated by mercury. It doesn't take a large leap of thought to realize that if the waters in the eco system have low level mercury levels that the land is also being contaminated. Aerial photos of our farm from 1939 show apple orchards in some of the areas which are now hay land. Arsenic was used heavily during that period of time for orchard pest management. The question is not whether mercury and other heavy metals are in the environment, but rather is, which human and animal food crops might take up these metals and provide animal and human life with concentrated levels of these metals? Perhaps, the expert (from USDA?) could tell me more. Perhaps others on the BDNOW! list have investigated this subject and have information to share. If we know which plants might pickup heavy metals, then we can get those specific crops tested for these metals. Thanks, John St. George Farm Freedom, Maine, USA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jul 17 11:24:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10359 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08764; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:10:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08684 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:09:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d150.infoserve.net [199.175.157.150]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA02653 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000a01bed067$0c5ec960$969dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: Fito-Remediation Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:14:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1290 -----Original Message----- From: Michael Roboz To: stgeorge@midcoast.com Date: Saturday, July 17, 1999 8:12 AM Subject: Re: Fito-Remediation >Dear John, > > First of all, if you do contact the USDA, etc., it is Phyto-Remediation. >They might think you are referring to a cell phone or something if you use >"Fito" ! > > Mustard (especially Brassica juncea) and Sunflowers are among the plants >that are helpful in bio-accumulating heavy metals. A Canadian researcher is >in the process of patenting a Lemon Geranium for this purpose, I think from >Univ. of Guelph, Ontario. Sheffield researchers in England have identified >Alpine Pennycress for zinc and cadmium. > You can manipulate the bio-accumulation of the metals by adjusting the pH >of the soil. >Problems that may come up: >1. Metals below the depth of the root zone. >2. Other animals such as insects that feed on the plants and carry the >metals up in the food chain. >3. Disposal of your metal laden plants. > Hope this helps some >Michael > >-----Original Message----- >From: John P. Thomas and Kathleen Barrett >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Saturday, July 17, 1999 7:52 AM >Subject: Fito-Remediation > > >>Allan, >> >>I'm trying to track down one of the people who spoke at the BD conference >>in Claymont last fall. He gave a talk on fito-remediation. I am trying to >>find out which edible plants might take up mercury, arsenic, lead, and >>other heavy metals, and which plants don't. Here in Maine, like all other >>New England states, the rivers, inland lakes, and tidal ocean waters are >>all contaminated by mercury. It doesn't take a large leap of thought to >>realize that if the waters in the eco system have low level mercury levels >>that the land is also being contaminated. Aerial photos of our farm from >>1939 show apple orchards in some of the areas which are now hay land. >>Arsenic was used heavily during that period of time for orchard pest >>management. The question is not whether mercury and other heavy metals are >>in the environment, but rather is, which human and animal food crops might >>take up these metals and provide animal and human life with concentrated >>levels of these metals? Perhaps, the expert (from USDA?) could tell me >>more. Perhaps others on the BDNOW! list have investigated this subject and >>have information to share. If we know which plants might pickup heavy >>metals, then we can get those specific crops tested for these metals. >> >>Thanks, John >> >>St. George Farm >>Freedom, Maine, USA >> >> > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jul 17 11:41:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10492 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09316; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:24:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09249 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:24:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.14.148]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:25:43 +0100 Message-ID: <3790A0B2.47A2@cwcom.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:26:42 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: More GM news Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1291 Folks - while I'm working through my backlog of "New Scientist" articles, you might like to know that researchers in Wageningen, Holland, are thrilled to note that bees concentrate plant proteins in honey: so they are working on genetically engineering plants to secrete vaccines into nectar. The idea is that the vaccine is fed in the form of honey, the bees having done all the work of extracting and concentrating the necessary protein. Beekeepers might be relieved to know that they are proposing to use bumble-bees confined in glasshouses, not honey-bees. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jul 17 11:41:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10500 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:41:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09282; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:24:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09241 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:24:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.14.148]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:25:42 +0100 Message-ID: <37909EC8.DC9@cwcom.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:18:32 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Dioxin, World Trade and GMOs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1292 Like Cheryl, I've been wondering where is everybody - but I guessed that, like me, they're all busily watering, slaughtering (weeds) and, hopefully, harvesting. Even if they're not posting, I hope they're reading or I'm wasting my time. Setting aside the environment, I reckon that the biggest threat of GM crops lies in the way that the US government seems bent on forcing them upon the rest of the world under threat of sanctions under the World Trade Organisation agreements which others have been stupid enough to sign. Apparently, even labelling products to indicate a GM ingredient is a barrier to 'fair trade'. Given that Rachel's Weekly #653 (recently posted on this list) dealt with dioxin, maybe I could pass on some details given in an article in "New Scientist" for 26th June (yes, a couple of weeks behind, as usual!). The scare over dioxin in Belgian (and a few French) products led to a US government blanket ban on all eggs and meat imported from the EU (no coincidence that we are currently in their black books for being worried about hormones in beef, BST in milk and - of course - GM soya and maize?). The current scare affected enough feed for 16 million chicken-days; but it has recently come to light that TCDD (the most toxic dioxin) in bentonite clay mined in Mississippi, used as an anti-caking agent in soya meal fed to chickens and farmed catfish, showed up in 1997. It had got into 1.7 million chickens over at least three years and affected one-third of all farmed catfish, at levels up to at least 43ppt: considerably less than in Belgian chickens but, of course, dioxins accumulate in body fat and so length of exposure is important. The FDA doesn't know how it got into the clay, but it allowed "moderately contaminated" chickens to be sold as food, so long as most of the fat was removed. Had you guys, over in the US, heard about this? Tony N-S From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jul 17 11:45:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10525 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:45:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09457; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09261 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.77] (pm3shep2-163-66.intrepid.net [209.190.163.66]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01332 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:26:02 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990717104304.00881be0@midcoast.com> References: <37779A86.57FA@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:29:57 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Fito-Remediation Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1293 Dear John - The speaker was Rufus Cheney, yet another BIONEER. Rufus is rather inaccessible at the USDA, but you may find useful information in works by or about JOHN TODD (founder of NEW ALCHEMY) and his 'living engines,' which make extensive use of phyto-remediation. I'll endeavor to have a speaker on this topic at the 1999 conference, Oct 1-3 at Claymont. -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com >Allan, > >I'm trying to track down one of the people who spoke at the BD conference >in Claymont last fall. He gave a talk on fito-remediation. I am trying to >find out which edible plants might take up mercury, arsenic, lead, and >other heavy metals, and which plants don't. Here in Maine, like all other >New England states, the rivers, inland lakes, and tidal ocean waters are >all contaminated by mercury. It doesn't take a large leap of thought to >realize that if the waters in the eco system have low level mercury levels >that the land is also being contaminated. Aerial photos of our farm from >1939 show apple orchards in some of the areas which are now hay land. >Arsenic was used heavily during that period of time for orchard pest >management. The question is not whether mercury and other heavy metals are >in the environment, but rather is, which human and animal food crops might >take up these metals and provide animal and human life with concentrated >levels of these metals? Perhaps, the expert (from USDA?) could tell me >more. Perhaps others on the BDNOW! list have investigated this subject and >have information to share. If we know which plants might pickup heavy >metals, then we can get those specific crops tested for these metals. > >Thanks, John > >St. George Farm >Freedom, Maine, USA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jul 17 11:55:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10628 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:55:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09733; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:38:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09699 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:37:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d151.infoserve.net [199.175.157.151]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA03306 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001201bed06a$f33685a0$979dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: More GM news Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:41:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1294 Dear Tony, One of the persons working on rearing bumblebees in the non-wild for greenhouses is a student here at Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada. Bombus spp. stick around rather than flying away thru open hatches in your greenhouse. They also, so far, are not diseased like our honey bees. Tony, could you post the issue of "new scientist", or, summerize the article? Great appreciated, Michael(BC) -----Original Message----- From: Tony Nelson-Smith To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, July 17, 1999 8:30 AM Subject: OFF: More GM news >Folks - while I'm working through my backlog of "New Scientist" >articles, you might like to know that researchers in Wageningen, >Holland, are thrilled to note that bees concentrate plant proteins in >honey: so they are working on genetically engineering plants to secrete >vaccines into nectar. The idea is that the vaccine is fed in the form >of honey, the bees having done all the work of extracting and >concentrating the necessary protein. Beekeepers might be relieved to >know that they are proposing to use bumble-bees confined in glasshouses, >not honey-bees. Tony N-S. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jul 17 12:02:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10704 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:02:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09928; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:44:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09864 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.204.86]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:44:38 +0100 Message-ID: <3790A594.295D@cwcom.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:47:32 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Phyto-remediation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1295 Dear John - Having just posted references to two articles in "New Scientist" for 26th June, I came on line and read your query. There is also a short note that Julian Schroeder and colleagues at the University of California, San Diego, have identified the gene that is responsible for the production of phytochelatins (which are plant peptides that bind to cadmium, mercury etc and are then stored in the leaves). They intend to breed plants which are more efficient at taking up such heavy metals. The reference given is EMBO Journal, vol 18, p 3325. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 18 08:57:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA23425 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 08:57:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12120; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 08:42:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand4.global.net.uk (sand4.global.net.uk [194.126.80.248]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12086 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 08:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pf4s09a01.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.137.245] helo=raithby.globalnet.co.uk) by sand4.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 115qHt-0002Yh-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:43:26 +0100 Message-ID: <37B9F3EC.34D6F92B@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 00:44:44 +0100 From: ALISON EADES X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Dioxin, World Trade and GMOs References: <37909EC8.DC9@cwcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1296 Tony This GM thing is quite amazing. If you heard Radio 4 the other day there are still farmers saying this is the only way we will feed the world. An article in The Guardian said that the issue is hotter over here than in the US because we are all sceptical following the BSE fiasco and because the public in the States are more welcoming of new technologies. The importance of information, of the free flow of valid and complete information, is so important. It is not just a matter of biotechnology or genetic engineering, it is what is being said about it, or not, by whom and to whom. In a world where politicians and journalists are widely believed to be economical with the truth, and where spin doctoring is becoming the norm our problems lie just as much with 'information' as they do with tampering with the building blocks of the natural environment. Alison Tony Nelson-Smith wrote: > Like Cheryl, I've been wondering where is everybody - but I guessed > that, like me, they're all busily watering, slaughtering (weeds) and, > hopefully, harvesting. Even if they're not posting, I hope they're > reading or I'm wasting my time. > Setting aside the environment, I reckon that the biggest threat of GM > crops lies in the way that the US government seems bent on forcing them > upon the rest of the world under threat of sanctions under the World > Trade Organisation agreements which others have been stupid enough to > sign. Apparently, even labelling products to indicate a GM ingredient > is a barrier to 'fair trade'. Given that Rachel's Weekly #653 (recently > posted on this list) dealt with dioxin, maybe I could pass on some > details given in an article in "New Scientist" for 26th June (yes, a > couple of weeks behind, as usual!). The scare over dioxin in Belgian > (and a few French) products led to a US government blanket ban on all > eggs and meat imported from the EU (no coincidence that we are currently > in their black books for being worried about hormones in beef, BST in > milk and - of course - GM soya and maize?). The current scare affected > enough feed for 16 million chicken-days; but it has recently come to > light that TCDD (the most toxic dioxin) in bentonite clay mined in > Mississippi, used as an anti-caking agent in soya meal fed to chickens > and farmed catfish, showed up in 1997. It had got into 1.7 million > chickens over at least three years and affected one-third of all farmed > catfish, at levels up to at least 43ppt: considerably less than in > Belgian chickens but, of course, dioxins accumulate in body fat and so > length of exposure is important. The FDA doesn't know how it got into > the clay, but it allowed "moderately contaminated" chickens to be sold > as food, so long as most of the fat was removed. Had you guys, over in > the US, heard about this? Tony N-S From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 18 10:35:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24425 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 10:35:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16476; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 10:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16290 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 10:17:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.135.85] (pm3bky1-135-85.intrepid.net [209.190.135.85]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA11084; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 10:18:59 -0400 Message-Id: <199907181418.KAA11084@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: Re: Phyto-remediation Date: Sun, 18 Jul 99 09:25:44 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1297 Folks This post about GM being used to breed plants that can clean up heavy metals poses what I believe is the real crucial question. There is no doubt that genetic manipulation is here to stay, the same way artificial intelligence is. The issue becomes the value system developed to guide the use of technology. We need philosophers and ethicists to direct the scientists. The astrology of the time gives us hope promising that just those types of souls are being incarnated during this decade -- beginning in the mid-'90s. Let's hope they get to work soon. Jeanne Mozier From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 18 11:36:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25110 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18854; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18796 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:21:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.6.242]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:22:49 +0100 Message-ID: <3791EB85.4A71@cwcom.net> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 15:58:13 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Dioxin, World Trade and GMOs References: <37909EC8.DC9@cwcom.net> <37B9F3EC.34D6F92B@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1298 Alison - You're dead right about the need for free flow of un-spun information in informing the public about technologies which might have an impact upon them. Some while ago, I posted a summary of an article about the implications of Pusztai's tests on GM potatoes which included a claim that, yes, Monsanto _has_ exhaustively tested for chemical changes in GM crops: but mainly by inserting the same gene(s) into bacteria. Such testing is easier, quicker and cheaper - but is valid only if exactly the same metabolic processes occur in the bacteria as in, say, soybean plants. Does that seem likely ? Years ago, I opposed the siting of a titanium dioxide plant on an estuary in South Wales, because of the impact on bottom-living organisms of the effluent which it would discharge (do you remember the fuss about the sticky orange 'acid mud' which Montedison had been discharging from a similar Italian plant into the Tyrrhenian Sea ?). I was discredited in a local newspaper (in the Welsh language so, as a non-speaker, I couldn't make a comeback until too late !) because the local representative of Du Pont produced a jar of the effluent, which the reporter was able quite honestly to describe as a clear, pale green liquid. What the Du Pont man failed to reveal was that it would become an opaque and sticky orange mess as soon as it hit sea-water. Am I cynical in thinking that these two big, well-informed corporations were not being entirely honest in the information they were making public ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 18 11:36:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25118 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:36:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18908; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:22:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18801 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.6.242]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:22:53 +0100 Message-ID: <3791F1EE.5A05@cwcom.net> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:25:34 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: More GM news References: <001201bed06a$f33685a0$979dafc7@333> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1299 Michael - I'm still coming to terms with my new scanner so, as it's a short article with the usual populist journalistic jokes thrown in ("a spoonful of honey... " and so on), perhaps you'll forgive me for giving a summary rather than trying to post the whole thing as an attachment. "New Scientist", 26th June 1999: Healing honey, p.24 Dutch biologists (Tineke Creemers of the Centre for Plant Breeding and Reproduction Research, Wageningen, and colleagues) are genetically engineering plants so that honey made from their nectar will contain drugs or vaccines. The honey could be fed directly to patients, or drugs could be extracted from it. The researchers also hope that the sugars in honey will act as a preservative and are investigating whether proteins in honey retain their activity even if it is not refrigerated - which would be a boon for vaccination programmes in poor tropical countries. Two discoveries gave rise to the project. First, they discovered antifungal proteins in nectar from common heather _Calluna vulgaris_ and found the proteins in commercial brands of honey, where presumably they had been passed undigested by the bees. They then fed bees bovine serum albumin in sugar solution and found that the proteins remained intact in the honey they produced, concentrated twofold. Secondly, they discovered a genetic switch or promoter which activates genes in the nectary; so they decided to try to add genes for various drugs to plants in such a way that the genes would be activated by the nectary promoter. In this way, the drugs should be produced only in the nectar. They are in the process of genetically engineering petunias so that they produce a vaccine against a parvovirus disease in dogs; the active component is a surface protein made by the virus, which should trigger immunity in dogs which either eat the honey or are injected with the purified vaccine. They expect to harvest the first honey in a year's time. "It's an exciting variation on making vaccines in plants," says Charlie Arntzen of Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y., who is producing bananas engineered to contain vaccines. Creemers and colleagues are doing their experiments in glasshouses, to ensure that their bees feed only on the modified plants and to minimise concerns of the vaccine genes being spread by pollen. Because of this they are using bumblebees, which are easier to manage in a contained environment than large colonies of honeybees. (ends) Your comments seem very relevant to the last paragraph. I hopr this helps. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 18 12:47:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA25913 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:47:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20919; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:33:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20862 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.49] (pm3shep1-163-17.intrepid.net [209.190.163.17]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA27163 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:32:47 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199907181418.KAA11084@loki.intrepid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:36:38 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Phyto-remediation Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1300 Sorry, Jeanne - In biodynamics there is ZERO TOLERANCE for GM, ragardless of how pragmatic it may appear initially in some applications. -Allan Balliett moderator BD Now! >Folks > >This post about GM being used to breed plants that can clean up heavy >metals poses what I believe is the real crucial question. There is no >doubt that genetic manipulation is here to stay, the same way artificial >intelligence is. The issue becomes the value system developed to guide >the use of technology. > >We need philosophers and ethicists to direct the scientists. The >astrology of the time gives us hope promising that just those types of >souls are being incarnated during this decade -- beginning in the >mid-'90s. Let's hope they get to work soon. > >Jeanne Mozier From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 18 13:24:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26178 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:24:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22103; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:10:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21956 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d156.infoserve.net [199.175.157.156]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA17765 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 10:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001701bed140$c061ce60$9c9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: OFF: Dioxin, World Trade and GMOs Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 10:12:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1301 Disinformation is part of their Information Process. It does not just happen with the GE industry. M. -----Original Message----- From: Tony Nelson-Smith To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, July 18, 1999 8:27 AM Subject: Re: OFF: Dioxin, World Trade and GMOs >Alison - You're dead right about the need for free flow of un-spun >information in informing the public about technologies which might have >an impact upon them. Some while ago, I posted a summary of an article >about the implications of Pusztai's tests on GM potatoes which included >a claim that, yes, Monsanto _has_ exhaustively tested for chemical >changes in GM crops: but mainly by inserting the same gene(s) into >bacteria. Such testing is easier, quicker and cheaper - but is valid >only if exactly the same metabolic processes occur in the bacteria as >in, say, soybean plants. Does that seem likely ? > Years ago, I opposed the siting of a titanium dioxide plant on an >estuary in South Wales, because of the impact on bottom-living organisms >of the effluent which it would discharge (do you remember the fuss about >the sticky orange 'acid mud' which Montedison had been discharging from >a similar Italian plant into the Tyrrhenian Sea ?). I was discredited >in a local newspaper (in the Welsh language so, as a non-speaker, I >couldn't make a comeback until too late !) because the local >representative of Du Pont produced a jar of the effluent, which the >reporter was able quite honestly to describe as a clear, pale green >liquid. What the Du Pont man failed to reveal was that it would become >an opaque and sticky orange mess as soon as it hit sea-water. > Am I cynical in thinking that these two big, well-informed corporations >were not being entirely honest in the information they were making >public ? Tony N-S. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 18 13:24:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26190 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:24:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22146; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:10:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22018 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:08:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d156.infoserve.net [199.175.157.156]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA17793 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 10:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002001bed140$e8ae4600$9c9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: More GM news Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 10:13:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1302 Dear Tony, Thank-you so much for making a summary. Hope your scanner is back in operation soon. I hope you don't mind if I forward your summary to a few bee friends. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Tony Nelson-Smith To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, July 18, 1999 8:27 AM Subject: Re: More GM news >Michael - I'm still coming to terms with my new scanner so, as it's a >short article with the usual populist journalistic jokes thrown in ("a >spoonful of honey... " and so on), perhaps you'll forgive me for giving >a summary rather than trying to post the whole thing as an attachment. > > "New Scientist", 26th June 1999: Healing honey, p.24 > > Dutch biologists (Tineke Creemers of the Centre for Plant Breeding and >Reproduction Research, Wageningen, and colleagues) are genetically >engineering plants so that honey made from their nectar will contain >drugs or vaccines. The honey could be fed directly to patients, or >drugs could be extracted from it. The researchers also hope that the >sugars in honey will act as a preservative and are investigating whether >proteins in honey retain their activity even if it is not refrigerated - >which would be a boon for vaccination programmes in poor tropical >countries. > Two discoveries gave rise to the project. First, they discovered >antifungal proteins in nectar from common heather _Calluna vulgaris_ and >found the proteins in commercial brands of honey, where presumably they >had been passed undigested by the bees. They then fed bees bovine serum >albumin in sugar solution and found that the proteins remained intact in >the honey they produced, concentrated twofold. Secondly, they >discovered a genetic switch or promoter which activates genes in the >nectary; so they decided to try to add genes for various drugs to >plants in such a way that the genes would be activated by the nectary >promoter. In this way, the drugs should be produced only in the nectar. > They are in the process of genetically engineering petunias so that >they produce a vaccine against a parvovirus disease in dogs; the active >component is a surface protein made by the virus, which should trigger >immunity in dogs which either eat the honey or are injected with the >purified vaccine. They expect to harvest the first honey in a year's >time. "It's an exciting variation on making vaccines in plants," says >Charlie Arntzen of Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y., who is producing >bananas engineered to contain vaccines. > Creemers and colleagues are doing their experiments in glasshouses, to >ensure that their bees feed only on the modified plants and to minimise >concerns of the vaccine genes being spread by pollen. Because of this >they are using bumblebees, which are easier to manage in a contained >environment than large colonies of honeybees. (ends) > > Your comments seem very relevant to the last paragraph. I hopr this >helps. Tony N-S. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 18 16:01:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA27853 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:01:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27869; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 15:46:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27810 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 15:45:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d157.infoserve.net [199.175.157.157]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA22824; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001a01bed156$da1ed940$9d9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Cc: "Ferdy Vondruska" Subject: Fw: OFF/ GEN7-17 Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:50:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1303 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Sunday, July 18, 1999 12:09 PM Subject: GEN7-17 >Business Times (Malaysia) > >July 13, 1999 > >SECTION: Nation; Pg. 2 > >Ban genetically-produced food' > >BODY: THE National Consumer Protection Council has called for the ban on >imports and sale of all genetically- engineered food products until it has >been proven safe for consumption by an independent body. Chairman Datuk >Moehamad Izat Emir said, recent reports from scientists have alerted the >danger of such products. The council has suggested proper labelling of all >the genetically-engineered food. > >"All the health food and health products need to be labelled accordingly to >safeguard the rights and safety of consumers," he said in a statement >released to announce the resolution of the council meeting attended by 18 >members in Kuala Lumpur yesterday. > >...... > >THE JOURNAL (Newcastle, UK) >July 13, 1999, >Top BSE expert will highlight risks over GM foods > >ONE of the country's top BSE experts is to hold a food-safety forum in the >Houses of Parliament next week to voice his fears over so-called >"Frankenstein Foods". Dr Harash Narang has been a consistent critic of the >government's handing of BSE, and its human variation CJD, and has given >expert evidence to Lord Justice Philips' inquiry into their outbreaks in >the late 1980s and early 1990s. > >The Newcastle-based microbiologist believes genetically-modified foods are >"a recipe for disaster" and that government scientists are repeating the >mistakes made with infected cattle in the early 1990s. > >Now Dr Narang believes GM crops may neutralise antibiotics in humans, and >is set to lobby politicians over his claims. > >And he has booked Committee Room 18 in the House of Commons to give a talk >about remaining problems with CJD/BSE and also the "Looming Cloud of >Genetically Modified Food". > >......... > >July 13, 1999 Associated Press > >Glickman Announces Steps To Address Biotech Crop Concerns > >WASHINGTON (AP)--Mindful of the growing controversy over genetically >engineered crops, Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman announced plans >Tuesday to study their long-term impact on the environment. Glickman >stopped short of proposing that genetically altered food be labeled as such >and said distrust of the crops, which is especially strong in Europe, is >"scientifically unfounded." But "with all that biotechnology has to offer, >it is nothing if it's not accepted" by consumers, he told a National Press >Club audience. > >...... > >Venture plans to develop ways to detect GM foods > >TOKYO, July 13 (Kyodo) -- > >Mitsubishi Corp. and Takara Shuzo Co. will form a joint venture to detect >genetically modified (GM) material in food so as to label food products as >free of genetic engineering, company officials said Tuesday. The joint >venture will be set up by the end of this month with a capitalization of 50 >million yen, with each company's equity stake to be decided by that time, >they said. > >.......... > > Jane Rissler of Union of Concerned Scientists on the recent USDA report: > >"Keep in mind that the USDA is a promotional, rather than >regulatory agency when it comes to genetic engineering of food." > >Comment at Technology Review Forum >http://www.techreview.com/currnt.htm > >.......... > >World Scientists' Statement > > >Calling on all Governments to: > > >* Impose an immediate moratorium on further environmental releases of >transgenic crops, food and animal-feed products for at least 5 years. >* Ban patents on living organisms, cell lines and genes. >* Support a comprehensive, independent public enquiry into the future of >agriculture and food security for all. > > First Update of Concerns - July >15th 1999 > >Prepared by >Dr Mae-Wan Ho & Angela Ryan >Open University, UK > >Biopatents > >The article on TRIPS is now under review at the WTO. It is an opportunity >to exclude the new biotech patents from TRIPS. A scientific briefing was >produced for the Third World Network and circulated at WTO, by two of our >signatories, Dr. Mae-Wan Ho and Dr. Terje Traavik. The full document can be >found on our website: . It provides a >glossary and detailed analysis of the relevant article in TRIPS as well as >corresponding articles in the EU Directive. The briefing conludes : > >All classes of the new biotech patents should be rejected from inclusion in >TRIPS on the following grounds: > >All involve biological processes not under the direct control of the >scientist. They cannot be regarded as inventions but expropriations from >life. > >The hit or mis technologies associated with many of the inventions are >inherently hasardous to health and biodiversity. > >There is no scientific basis to support the patenting of genes and genomes, >which are discoveries at best. > >Many patents are unethical ; they destroy livelihoods, contravene basic >human rights, create unnecessary suffering in animals or are otherwise >contrary to public order and morality. > >Many patents involve acts of plagiarism of indigenous knowledge and >biopiracy of plants (and animals) bred and used by local communities for >millenia. > >Hazards > >1. Researchers at Cornell University published a study in Nature which >found that pollen from GM Bt corn could have lethal effects on the larvae >of monarch butterflies if it lands on milkweed, the plant upon which they >feed. Forty-four percent of the larvae were killed after 4 days, whereas no >mortality occurred in larvae fed nontransgenic pollen. The Cornell >University researchers say their results "have potentially Ýprofound >implications for the conservation of monarch butterflies" and believe more >research on the environmental risks of biotechnology in agriculture is >essential. > >Reference: Losey, J.E. et al (1999). Transgenic pollen harms monarch >larvae. Nature 399, 214. > >2. A recent study on transgenic rice carried out at the John Innes >Institute supports previous evidence that there is a recombination hotspot >in the CaMV 35S promoter. Furthermore, most of the recombination events >analyzed were 'illegitimate' or nonhomologous and do not require >substantial similarity in nucleic acid base sequence. The recombination >events were also found to occur independently, in the absence of other >viral genes. > >Our comment: Transgenic lines containing the CaMV promoter, which includes >practically all that have been released, are therefore prone to instability >due to rearrangements, and also have the potential to create new viruses or >other invasive genetic elements. The continued release of such transgenic >lines is unwarranted in light of the new findings. > >Reference; Kohli, A. et al 1999. Molecular characterization of transforming >plasmid rearrangement in transgenic rice reveals a recombination hotspot in >the CaMV promoter and confirms the predominance of microhomology mediated >recombination. The Plant Journal 17(6), pp 591-601. > >3. A new study reviews 8,200 university based trials of transgenic soya >varieties. It reveals that Roundup Ready Soybeans produce lower yields >compared to their non GM counterparts. The average yield drag in RR >soybeans was 6.7% and in some areas of the midwest the average yeild in >conventional varieties was 10% higher compared to Roundup Ready varieties. >Furthermore the analysis shows that farmers use 2 to 5 times more herbicide >measured in pounds applied per acre on RR soybeans compared with other weed >management systems. RR herbicide use exceeds the levels on many farms >using multi-tactic weed management systems by a factor of 10 or more. > >Reference: Evidence of the Magnitude and Consequences of the Roundup Ready >Soybean Yield Drag from University-Based Varietal Trials in 1998 by U.S. >agronomist Dr. Charles Benbrook, author of Pest Management at the >Crossroads and former Executive Director of the Board on Agriculture for >the US National Academy of Sciences. ÝAg Biotech Infonet Technical Paper >Number 1 July 13 1999. website > > >3. A recent population-based study conducted in Sweden between 1987-1990 >and including follow-up interviews clearly links exposure to Roundup Ready >herbicide (glyphosate) to non-Hodgkinís lymphoma and strongly suggests >glyphosate deserves further epidemiological studies. > >Reference: Hardell, H. & Eriksson, M. (1999). A Case-Control Study of >Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma and Exposure to Pesticides. Cancer 5, No 6. > >4. A new paper reports chaotic gene silencing in GM plants and reveals >that each transformed plant expressed a different and specific instability >profile. Both transcriptional and post-transcriptional gene silencing >mechanisms were operating in a chaotic manner and demonstrates that >epigenetic (position) effects are responsible for transgene instability in >GM plants. These results indicate that transgene silencing and instability >will continue to hinder the economic exploitation of GM plants. > >Reference; Dr Neve M et al. (1999) Gene Silencing results in instability >of antibody production in transgenic plants. Molecular and General >Genetics 260:580-592. > >5. Successful transfers of a kanamycin resistance marker gene to the soil >bacterium Acinetobacter were obtained using DNA extracted from homogenized >plant leaf from a range of transgenic plants: Solanum tuberosum (potato), >Nicotiana tabacum (tobacco), Beta vulgaris (sugar beet), Brassica napus >(oil-seed rape) and Lycopersicon esculentum (tomato). It is estimated that >about 2500 copies of the kanamycin resistance genes (from the same number >of plant cells) is sufficient to successfully transform one bacterium, >despite the fact that there is six million-fold excess of plant DNA present. > >Our comment: A single plant with say, 2.5 trillion cells, would be >sufficient to transform one billion bacteria. > >Reference: De Vries, J. and Wackernagel, W. (1998). Detection of nptII >(kanamycin resistance) genes in genomes of transgenic plants by >marker-rescue transformation. Mol. Gen. Genet. 257, 606-13. > >6. Horizontal gene transfer between bacteria can occur in the gut at high >frequencies. This has been demonstrated in the gut of germ-free mice. The >'germ-free' gut-environment can result from taking antibiotics. In one >experiment, tetracycline increases the frequency of horizontal gene >transfer by 20-fold. And vancomycin-resistant Enterococcus faecium is found >to colonise the gut when the mice were treated with antibiotic. > >Our comments: Antibiotic resistance marker genes can spread from GMOs to >bacteria and between bacteria, including those associated with infectious >diseases. Furthermore, the use of antibiotics will make resistance spread >more readily. > >References: Persson et al (1996). Enetrococcus faecium in ex-germfree mice. >Microecology and Therapy, 24, 169-173. >Doucet-Populaire, F. et al (1991). Inducible transfer of conjugative >transposon Tn/545 from Enterocococcus faecalis to Listeria monocytogenes in >the digestive tracts of gnotobiotic mice. Antimicrob. Agents Chemother., >35, 185-7. >Whitman, M.S. et al (1996). Gastrointestional tract colonization with >vancomycin-resistant Enterococcus faecium in an animal model. Antimicrob. >Agents Chemother. 40, 1526-30. > >7. Pathogenic bacteria capable of invading cells can act as vectors for >transferring genes into mammalian cells. > >Our comment: Dangerous transgenic DNA can end up in the genome of our >cells, with the potential of causing a lot of genetic disturbance including >cancer. > >Reference: Grillot-Courvalin, et al. (1998). Functional gene transfer from >intracellular bacteria to mammalian cells. Nature Biotechnology 16, 1-5. > >Other relevant papers on our website: > >Special Safety Concerns of Transgenic Agriculture and Related Issues >Briefing Paper for Minister of State for the Environment, The Rt Hon >Michael Meacher. (Prepared 7.4.99) >Report on meeting of scientists in Michael Meacher's Office (Prepared 10.4.99) >One-bird ten thousand treasures - How ducklings in the paddy-field can feed >the world. >Principle of substantial equivalence - excerpt from a full critique of the >FAO/WHO joint report on safety of GM foods. > >Sign on at our website: > > > >Signatories on the World Scientists' Statement > >July 15th 1999 (Total = 85) > >Dr. Ted Steele, Molecular Immunologist, U. Wollengong, Australia >Angela Fehringer, Antropology Student, Austria >Prof. David Suzuki, Geneticist, U.B.C., Canada >Prof. Joe Cummins, Geneticist, University of Western Ontario, Canada >Dr Ruth Goseth, Dermatologist, ISDE, China >Dr. Tewolde Egziabher, Agronomist, Min. of the Environment, Ethiopia >Dr. Christine von Weisaeker, Ecoropa, Germany >Prof. Ervin Laszlo, President, The Club of Buddapest, Hungary >Dr. Vandana Shiva, Research Institute for Science and Ecology, India >Dr Muhua Achary, Environmentalist, St Josephs College, Bangalore, India >Dr. Bruno D'Udine, Behaviour Ecologist, University of Udine, Italy >Dr Giorgio Cingolani, Agricultural Economist, Italy >Prof. Atuhiro Sibatani, Molecular Biologist, Osaka, Japan >Dr Shiron Sugita, Plant Geneticist, Nagoya U. Japan >Dr Noeoru Tagishita, Plant Geneticist, Japanese Assoc. of Agro-Nature, >Tokyo, Japan >Dr Shing Shibata, Biosafty and Environmental Sociologist, The Civil Rights >Against Japan, Japan >Dr Farhad Mazhar, Ecologist, New Agricultural Movement, Japan >Dr Robert Mann, Physician, New Zealand >Prof. Terje Traavik, Virologist, University of Tromso, Norway >Prof Oscar B. Zamora, Agronomist, U. of Philippines Los Banos, Philippines >Dr Gregorio Alvar, Biotechnologist, Molecular Biology Dept. Computense U. >Madrid, Spain >Dr. Javier Blasco, Aragonese Ctr Rural European Information, Spain >Dr. Katarina Leppanen, History of Ideas, Gothenburg Uni, Sweden >Dr. Florianne Koechlin, Biologist, World Wildlife Fund, Switzerland >Verena Soldati Biotechnologist, Basler Appell, Switzerland. >Daniel Amman, Cell Biologist, Tech. Switzerland >Yves Schatzle, Agronomist and Economist, Switzerland >Prof. Arpad Pusztai, Biochemist, Formerly from Rowett Institute, UK >Dr. Susan Bardocz, Geneticist, Aberdeen, UK >Prof. Richard Lacey, Microbiologist, Leeds, UK >Dr. Michael Antoniou, Molecular Geneticist, Guy's Hospital, UK >Dr. Mae-Wan Ho, Geneticist and Biophysicist, Open University, UK >Dr J. M. Kerr, Bioethics, Winchester College: Oxford U. UK >Dr Tom Wakeford, Biologist, U. of East London, UK >Prof. Brian Goodwin, Biologist, Schumacher College, UK >Dr. Patrick Holden Director Soil Association, UK >Dr Eva Novotny, U. of Cambridge (Retired), UK >Prof. Ian Stuart, Biomathematics, U. Warwick, UK >Dr. Vyvyan Howard, Toxipathologist, U. Liverpool, UK >Prof. Peter Saunders, Biomathematician, U. London, UK >Prof. Tim Ingold, Anthropologist, U. Manchester, UK >Dr. Robert C. Poller, Organic Chemist, U. London, UK >Gordon Daly P.hD student, Gene Therapist, Kennedy Inst. London, UK >Stuart Daly P.hD student, Transgenic group, Charing Cross Hosp. UK >Peter Preston-Jones, M.Sc. Environmentalist, UK >Dr. John E. Hammond, Engineer, Highfeild, UK >Dr. Philip Kilner, Cardiologist, Royal Brompton & Harefield, UK >Dani Kaye M.Sc. Scientists for Global Responsibility London, UK >David Kaye M.Sc. Scientists for Global Responsibility, London, UK >Angela Ryan, Molecular biologist, Open Univ. UK >Prof. David Packham, Material Scientist, U. Bath, UK >Dr. David J Heaf, Biochemist, Wales, UK >Dr Alan Currier, Taxonomist, IRBV, UK >Dr Gesa Staats de Yanes, Veterinarian Toxicologist, U. of Liverpool, UK >Barbara Wood-Kaczmar M.Sc. Science Writer, UK >Dr Gene S. Thomas, Agriculturalist, UK >Prof. Martha Crouch, Biologist, Indiana University, USA >Prof. Ruth Hubbard, Biologist, Harvard University, USA >Prof. Phil Bereano, Union of Concerned Scientists, U. Washington USA >Prof. Martha Herbert , Pediatric Neurologist, Mass. Gen. Hosp. USA >Prof. David Schartzman, Biologist, Howard U. Washington DC USA Prof. John >Garderineer, Biologist, U. Michigan USA >Dr Walter Bortz, Physician, Palo Alto, USA >Dr. Mahua Acharya, Biologist, USA >Dr. Catherine Badley, Biologist, University of Michigan USA >Dr. Gerald Smith, Zoologist, U. Michigan, USA >Vuejuin McKersen M.Sc, Natural Resource Manager U. Michigan, USA >Dr. John Soluri, Historian of Science, Carnegie Mellon U USA >Juiet S Erazo PhD student U. of Michigan USA >Dr. Juette Peufecto, Biologist, U of Michigan USA >U.V. Kutzli Ph.D. Candidate, U of Michigan USA >Kristin Cobelius M.Sc. Student, U. Michigan USA >Lena S Nicolai PhD Student University of Michigan USA >Marial Peelle, Biol./Anthropologist Undergrad. Swarthmors College USA >Dr. Ty Fitzmorris, Ecologist, Hampshire College USA >Dr. Caros R Ramirez, Biologist, St Lawrance University USA >Rosa Vazquez Student in Biology, Ohio State University USA >Sean Lyman Student Gettysbury College USA >Ryan White Student St Lawrence University USA >Dr. Nancy A Schult, Entomologist, U of Wisconsin-Madison USA >Dr. Brian Schultz, Ecologist, Hampshire College USA >Dr. Douglas H Boucher, Ecologist, Hood College USA >Dr. Timothy Mann, Geographer, Hampshire College, USA >Chris Picone M.Sc. Soil Microbiologist, U. Michigan USA >Dr. Peter M. Rosset, Ins. for Food and Development Policy, USA > >In summary, we call upon our Governments to: > >* Impose an immediate moratorium on further environmental releases of >transgenic crops, food and animal-feed products for at least 5 years. >* Ban patents on living organisms, cell lines and genes. >* Support a comprehensive, independent public enquiry into the future of >agriculture and food security for all, taking account of the full range of >scientific findings as well as socioeconomic and ethical implications. > > >.............. > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 18 16:38:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA28221 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:38:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA05297; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:24:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand2.global.net.uk (sand2.global.net.uk [195.147.246.100]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04595 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p28s11a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.219.41] helo=compaq) by sand2.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 115xTJ-0003Eq-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:23:41 +0100 Message-ID: <379236C9.5268@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:19:21 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: Phyto-remediation] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1304 Message-ID: <3792362A.2C19@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:16:42 +0100 From: Cook's Delight Reply-To: cooksd@globalnet.co.uk Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, i CC: hard, copy, to, Prime, Minister, Tony, Blair Subject: Re: Phyto-remediation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allan Balliett wrote: > > Sorry, Jeanne - > > In biodynamics there is ZERO TOLERANCE for GM, ragardless of how pragmatic > it may appear initially in some applications. > > -Allan Balliett > moderator > BD Now! > > >Folks > > > >This post about GM being used to breed plants that can clean up heavy > >metals poses what I believe is the real crucial question. There is no > >doubt that genetic manipulation is here to stay, the same way artificial > >intelligence is. The issue becomes the value system developed to guide > >the use of technology. > > > >We need philosophers and ethicists to direct the scientists. The > >astrology of the time gives us hope promising that just those types of > >souls are being incarnated during this decade -- beginning in the > >mid-'90s. Let's hope they get to work soon. > > > >Jeanne Mozier 7o million acres of Genetic crops are grown In America, the Land of Plenty And it's now been shown That better yields, are rubbish! Compared to those before And pesticides if anything They now use even more. So is it New Technology Or just a great big con Vociferous,we have to be Our new found facts we don And write in rhyme to tell you Sir Just how misled you've been Food Safety Regulations And the movement to stay green! Dr Benbrook in the States Says Roundup Ready complicates The data thats provided The where for all to say Genetics it would feed the world It's not true,and Today The crops planted organically With Pesticides not used Yields are up,it does appear We're all being abused. By being mis-informed, where's the Reality? Yields increase by up to 10per cent So why make us into their poor old guinea pigs It's wrong you know that's so, why are you bent? On Trialing them in Britain, it's sadly gone too far We just don't bloody want these sites no matter where they are Its good there's zero tolerance in BD Farmers Law It really is a tragedy that there just isn't more They are the worst dictators they muscle in and say You will have genetic food, now just you go away We've sold it to your Government there's money to be made We've Terminator up our sleeve and we're gonna do this Trade Be mindful of the strategy these morons try to wield They come at us in darkness brandishing their shield And firing their genetic bullets up and down our street Franken Foods will feed the world they think they have us beat We hear the White House is becoming heavy Its up for grabs World Trade is A okay Transnationals who work their trangene nonsense Are ready in the wings to make us pay BD Farmers best prick up your ear-oles Organic farmers we must get our hoe's Out and march togethergive them Action Against the terrifying GMO's It's really very sinster the effort To stifle and put down the public cry We have to ban this so called new technology We have to, or if not, curl up and die. Rex Tyler 360.High Street, Berkhamsted Herts HP4 1HU From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 18 20:20:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA00655 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA27173; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:05:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA27064 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.161.129]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990719000811.GTDB957005.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:08:11 +1200 Message-ID: <37926C37.5532@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:07:19 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Big Picture Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1305 Adjustments have been made to my 'Big Picture' diagrams so it is easier to see the connections between the World and Personal 'bodies in the kngdoms of nature. It can be viewed at http://business.fortunecity.com/huntsman/39/big.htm GA. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 19 05:59:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA05337 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 05:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA16864; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 05:44:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA16790 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 05:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.138] (pm3shep3-163-138.intrepid.net [209.190.163.138]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA16811; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 05:44:17 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 05:48:12 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD: harvesting medicinal herbs Cc: nowvideo@mail.teleport.com Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1306 >Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 00:56:11 -0500 >X-Sender: nowvideo@mail.teleport.com >Mime-Version: 1.0 >To: bdnow@igg.com >From: ganesh >Subject: harvesting medicinal herbs >Status: U > >I'm looking for information on harvesting medicinal herbs according to the >biodynamic calendar. > >Is it better to harvest herbs according to the part used - herb leaves on a >leaf day to enhance the properties of the leaf, or all herbs on root or >fruit days for better storage? I'd appreciate any info you can provide, or >direction to books that would have information. > >Thanks, Ann > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 19 09:05:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07256 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21693; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:44:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21618 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.135.68] (pm3bky1-135-68.intrepid.net [209.190.135.68]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA03517; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:44:37 -0400 Message-Id: <199907191244.IAA03517@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: Monsanto and misinformation Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 07:51:23 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1307 Folks A true story about how hard it is to keep everyone well informed, even the best intentioned. I recently took a friend to hear me lecture on the transit of Saturn through Taurus. (2/99 through 2001). Since this transit has much to do with lessons related to food, I spoke about the crisis of genetic manipulation and food and Monsanto's role in it (thanks in part to info obtained here.) My friend is a well intentioned, concerned, politically astute person with long years working in the US Congress and a current position as an information exec for the US Department of Commerce. After the lecture, she came up to me horrified. "We've just given Monsanto one of our best business awards." I now keep her posted on the GM controversies involving Monsanto. Jeanne Mozier From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 19 10:03:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08269 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24883; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:48:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtfm.midcoast.com (root@dns.midcoast.com [206.26.226.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24798 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:47:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jpt (liberty-c-000.midcoast.com [208.153.20.100]) by rtfm.midcoast.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA04841 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:48:53 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990719094354.00885990@midcoast.com> X-Sender: stgeorge@midcoast.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:43:54 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "John P. Thomas and Kathleen Barrett" Subject: Re: OFF: Dioxin, World Trade and GMOs In-Reply-To: <37909EC8.DC9@cwcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1308 . . . . The FDA doesn't know how it got into >the clay, but it allowed "moderately contaminated" chickens to be sold >as food, so long as most of the fat was removed. Had you guys, over in >the US, heard about this? Tony N-S No! Not a word. John From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 19 10:33:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08791 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:33:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26630; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:18:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26445 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:16:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp221.cy-net.net [208.21.195.30]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22081 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:18:30 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BED1C7.04DF6940@FLYLO>; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:13:52 -0500 Message-ID: <01BED1C7.04DF6940@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: About.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:07:52 -0500 Encoding: 10 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1309 About.com used to be The Mining Company. I broached the editor of the weekly newsletter on health about something or other, and 'casually' mentioned that I haven't seen much on genetically engineered food in his column. He said he's indifferent to the topic, but would like it if I'd start a discussion in the forum on GE seed and it's effect on health. Before I do so, I'd like permission to go back and maybe have access to repost some of the past Bio-Now postings. If public awareness is key, then this is a good way to broaden that outlet. thanks martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 19 11:04:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09942 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28417; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:49:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28282 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.138] (pm3shep4-163-206.intrepid.net [209.190.163.206]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28583 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:49:51 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BED1C7.04DF6940@FLYLO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:53:11 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: About.com Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1310 >About.com used to be The Mining Company. I broached the editor of the >weekly newsletter on health about something or other, and 'casually' >mentioned that I haven't seen much on genetically engineered food in his >column. He said he's indifferent to the topic, but would like it if I'd >start a discussion in the forum on GE seed and it's effect on health. >Before I do so, I'd like permission to go back and maybe have access to >repost some of the past Bio-Now postings. >If public awareness is key, then this is a good way to broaden that outlet. >thanks >martha That's fine, Martha. Please always reference BD Now! as the place where you saw the article 'first,' and please always include the BD Now! subscription information. Thanks from all of us!! -Allan =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 19 12:40:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16663 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:40:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05716; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05552 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:23:27 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id hGTFa21098 (14459) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:23:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:23:43 EDT Subject: compost To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 21 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1311 is there a company that sells BD-treated compost in bulk? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 19 12:53:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16941 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:53:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06635; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06579 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:37:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:37:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907191637.MAA06579@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 23889 invoked from network); 19 Jul 1999 16:39:29 -0000 Received: from i48-14-46.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO DAVE) (216.26.5.110) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 19 Jul 1999 16:39:29 -0000 X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Re: Phyto-remediation Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1312 At 12:36 PM 7/18/99 -0500, you wrote: >Sorry, Jeanne - > >In biodynamics there is ZERO TOLERANCE for GM, ragardless of how pragmatic >it may appear initially in some applications. > > > >-Allan Balliett >moderator >BD Now! Excuse me, Allan but who made you the authority on what biodynamics is or is not. As our discussions have made clear, there is a wide variety of opinions regarding what old RS meant anyway. Since GM hadn't been invented yet, I doubt he issued a specific ruling on the issue. Lets face it -- any kind of farming is bio-engineering of a sort. We are taking an eco-system and "tuning" it to produce more of certain species than it would do in the "wild". With BD, we seek to emphasize natural forces and principles, remembering with humility, that actions often have unintended consequences. But we are still forcing change. RS recognized that in describing the farmer's role as bringing rational planning to the farm organism. The methods we use include "slow" use of genetics, breeding variety by traditional methods. Witness the recent discussion of selecting seed grains. It also includes use of introduced species far from their native habitat. Should we say these practices are "unnatural" and wrong? What would RS have said about computer/internet technology? Certainly Wendal Berry is not in favor. Should we assume that all new technology is suspect? Or that we can take what is useful without being contaminated by what is bad? I am not happy about GM. I think its introduction is irresponsible, greedy and short sighted. I also recognize the value that may be introduced by more nutrious foodstuffs, cheap vacines, phyto remediation of our pollution products. I think there is a legitimate question of how we can integrate the new technology -- and not dismiss it out of hand. ======================== David Robison Stellar Processes From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 19 12:59:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17156 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:59:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07288; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand2.global.net.uk (sand2.global.net.uk [195.147.246.100]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07067 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:44:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p31s03a01.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.131.50] helo=raithby.globalnet.co.uk) by sand2.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 116GYS-0005CI-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:46:16 +0100 Message-ID: <37BC32D2.5F913752@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:37:38 +0100 From: ALISON EADES X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Dioxin, World Trade and GMOs References: <37909EC8.DC9@cwcom.net> <37B9F3EC.34D6F92B@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> <3791EB85.4A71@cwcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1313 Tony What I can never get my head around is the fact that all these corporations are not soul-less machines - they are actually a bunch of human individuals who love their children, like gardening and swimming in the sea, but who get to the office and couldn't care less what the company does so long as they are within budget, on target and sales trends are up. These humans would be up-in-arms if the local supermarket began putting lead inside loaves of bread - so why don't they care about what they are doing? According to the papers, the latest furore about the oil company up in Alaska just being an accident waiting to happen seemed to lie largely in people being scared of losing their jobs. The problem is therefore one of individualism, short-sightedness and a total lack of understanding of what makes the world go round. So the solution to all our problems may be to turn the State over to a Waldorf Foundation and sort out education and the basis of our society! In the absence of that, maybe Tennyson had the right idea, quote "more things are wrought by prayer than this world dreams of ..." Alison Tony Nelson-Smith wrote: > Alison - You're dead right about the need for free flow of un-spun > information in informing the public about technologies which might have > an impact upon them. Some while ago, I posted a summary of an article > about the implications of Pusztai's tests on GM potatoes which included > a claim that, yes, Monsanto _has_ exhaustively tested for chemical > changes in GM crops: but mainly by inserting the same gene(s) into > bacteria. Such testing is easier, quicker and cheaper - but is valid > only if exactly the same metabolic processes occur in the bacteria as > in, say, soybean plants. Does that seem likely ? > Years ago, I opposed the siting of a titanium dioxide plant on an > estuary in South Wales, because of the impact on bottom-living organisms > of the effluent which it would discharge (do you remember the fuss about > the sticky orange 'acid mud' which Montedison had been discharging from > a similar Italian plant into the Tyrrhenian Sea ?). I was discredited > in a local newspaper (in the Welsh language so, as a non-speaker, I > couldn't make a comeback until too late !) because the local > representative of Du Pont produced a jar of the effluent, which the > reporter was able quite honestly to describe as a clear, pale green > liquid. What the Du Pont man failed to reveal was that it would become > an opaque and sticky orange mess as soon as it hit sea-water. > Am I cynical in thinking that these two big, well-informed corporations > were not being entirely honest in the information they were making > public ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 19 12:59:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17164 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:59:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07198; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand2.global.net.uk (sand2.global.net.uk [195.147.246.100]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07061 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:44:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p31s03a01.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.131.50] helo=raithby.globalnet.co.uk) by sand2.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 116GYO-0005BI-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:46:12 +0100 Message-ID: <37BC2F3D.FC7AB951@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:22:21 +0100 From: ALISON EADES X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Jeanne and GM References: <199907181418.KAA11084@loki.intrepid.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------2CB56D955D76A265B00B5BA2" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1314 --------------2CB56D955D76A265B00B5BA2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeanne What value system? Does our modern world hold one? To my mind GM is interfering with the subtle energies and patterns that link every living thing together. The consequence of changing the building blocks of nature without knowing the knock-on effects will be - in true Gaia sense - to upset the balance of everything. But that is not a good scientific argument for stopping GM, scientists need more data and proof which means data will emerge to support GM and data will emerge to support the cessation of GM. What niggles me is actually the fact that trials to determine whether GM crops are 'safe' or not are based on our still limited science. Some cientists may well 'prove' certain GM crops are safe. Then what? What can we do if some of these scientists who are standing up to corporations now by demanding more research, in 5 years time agree in principle that certain types of genetic engineering can go ahead. I think you may be right that GM is here to stay. Maybe the best we can do is push for a totally open information system, for clear labelling, for continued public debate, and on the other side to promote havens of BD land, encouraging consumers towards organic and eventually biodynamic ethics and produce. Whether GE is right or wrong is a hard nut to crack for the public when it comes to producing medicinal drugs cheaply from plants. I would think these crops will get general support. In 20 years time we will have had our first Chernobyl of Genetic Engineering and the organic/BD lobby will be prepared to show the way. Although we have a high proportion of people in Britain not wanting GM food I do not believe there will be marching in the streets if the US wins a battle at the World Trade Organisation and GM soya etc. floods into Europe. It is going to be a long winter and alongside the lobbying must be the development of the organic/BD sector. We need to be around, with a consistently high profile, for people like your friend who simply hadn't realised what was going on. Money is key. Organic groups have long been short of it but it would surely help to set up a strong information base which will continually feed the public facts and counter-arguments as the GM story rolls on. Maybe initiatives like Allan's BDNOW will gradually join up, strengthen, grow, and begin reaching mainstream media with even more force and show how a confused public can access organic/BD food near them. It was interesting when I visited my sister-in-law recently in Belgium. She has long since decided her children have to be fed organic food and the latest dioxin scare just confirmed her stance. When I looked at the packaging it was all Demeter (BD certified) produce and she didn't know there was a difference. Nor should she - at the moment we need the strength of being part of the organic lobby. Later, when there is better general understanding we can get into more detail to show the benefits of biodynamics. Just my thoughts... Alison Jeanne Mozier wrote: > Folks > > This post about GM being used to breed plants that can clean up heavy > metals poses what I believe is the real crucial question. There is no > doubt that genetic manipulation is here to stay, the same way artificial > intelligence is. The issue becomes the value system developed to guide > the use of technology. > > We need philosophers and ethicists to direct the scientists. The > astrology of the time gives us hope promising that just those types of > souls are being incarnated during this decade -- beginning in the > mid-'90s. Let's hope they get to work soon. > > Jeanne Mozier --------------2CB56D955D76A265B00B5BA2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeanne

What value system? Does our modern world hold one? To my mind GM is interfering with the subtle energies and patterns that link every living thing together. The consequence of changing the building blocks of nature without knowing the knock-on effects will be - in true Gaia sense - to upset the balance of everything. But that is not a good scientific argument for stopping GM, scientists need more data and proof which means data will emerge to support GM and data will emerge to support the cessation of GM.

What niggles me is actually the fact that trials to determine whether GM crops are 'safe' or not are based on our still limited science. Some cientists may well 'prove' certain GM crops are safe. Then what? What can we do if some of these scientists who are standing up to corporations now by demanding more research,  in 5 years time agree in principle that certain types of genetic engineering can go ahead. I think you may be right that GM is here to stay. Maybe the best we can do is push for a totally open information system, for clear labelling, for continued public debate, and on the other side to promote havens of BD land, encouraging consumers towards organic and eventually biodynamic ethics and produce. Whether GE is right or wrong is a hard nut to crack for the public when it comes to producing medicinal drugs cheaply from plants. I would think these crops will get general support.

In 20 years time we will have had our first Chernobyl of Genetic Engineering and the organic/BD lobby will be prepared to show the way. Although we have a high proportion of people in Britain not wanting GM food I do not believe there will be marching in the streets if the US wins a battle at the World Trade Organisation and GM soya etc. floods into Europe. It is going to be a long winter and alongside the lobbying must be the development of the organic/BD sector. We need to be around, with a consistently high profile, for people like your friend who simply hadn't realised what was going on.

Money is key. Organic groups have long been short of it but it would surely help to set up a strong information base which will continually feed the public facts and counter-arguments as the GM story rolls on. Maybe initiatives like Allan's BDNOW will gradually join up, strengthen, grow, and begin reaching mainstream media with even more force and show how a confused public can access organic/BD food near them.

It was interesting when I visited my sister-in-law recently in Belgium. She has long since decided her children have to be fed organic food and the latest dioxin scare just confirmed her stance. When I looked at the packaging it was all Demeter (BD certified) produce and she didn't know there was a difference. Nor should she - at the moment we need the strength of being part of the organic lobby. Later, when there is better general understanding we can get into more detail to show the benefits of biodynamics.

Just my thoughts...

Alison
 
 

Jeanne Mozier wrote:

Folks

This post about GM being used to breed plants that can clean up heavy
metals poses what I believe is the real crucial question.  There is no
doubt that genetic manipulation is here to stay, the same way artificial
intelligence is.  The issue becomes the value system developed to guide
the use of technology.

We need philosophers and ethicists to direct the scientists. The
astrology of the time gives us hope promising that just those types of
souls are being incarnated during this decade -- beginning in the
mid-'90s.  Let's hope they get to work soon.

Jeanne Mozier

  --------------2CB56D955D76A265B00B5BA2-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 19 13:27:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA19934 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09211; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:12:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09099 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:11:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.138] (pm3shep2-163-86.intrepid.net [209.190.163.86]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA25171 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:12:47 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199907191637.MAA06579@envirolink.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:16:43 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Phyto-remediation Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1315 >At 12:36 PM 7/18/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Sorry, Jeanne - >> >>In biodynamics there is ZERO TOLERANCE for GM, ragardless of how pragmatic >>it may appear initially in some applications. >> >> >> >>-Allan Balliett >>moderator >>BD Now! > >Excuse me, Allan but who made you the authority on what biodynamics is or is >not. As our discussions have made clear, there is a wide variety of opinions >regarding what old RS meant anyway. Since GM hadn't been invented yet, I >doubt he issued a specific ruling on the issue. > Dave - You don't have to be 'the' authority on what biodynamics is or is not' to know that GM is not a fit in biodynamics. It's just a matter of having a sense of the sacred...and the profane. I've always felt that working with the preps heightens those sensibilities. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 19 15:26:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA24172 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:26:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22505; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22321 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:07:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp39.blueriver.mwt.net [156.46.253.166]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA25229 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:05:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <005a01bed219$cbd4f860$a6fd2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: Subject: Herbal solutions - Poultry Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:06:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1316 Anyone know anything about this group? Their products? http://www.growell.com/poultry.htm Thanks for your thoughts. Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 19 15:44:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA25759 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24592; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24199 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:26:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:26:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907191926.PAA24199@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 29600 invoked from network); 19 Jul 1999 19:28:16 -0000 Received: from i48-11-06.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO DAVE) (216.26.4.134) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 19 Jul 1999 19:28:16 -0000 X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Re: Phyto-remediation Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1317 At 01:16 PM 7/19/99 -0500, you wrote: >It's just a matter of having a sense of the sacred...and the profane. I've >always felt that working with the preps heightens those sensibilities. With due respect, Allan, who decides what is sacred and profane? Is all new technology profane? We are choosing new technology even to communicate this way -- is the internet profane? Is any kind of interruption of natural life forces profane? Because we have to do some of that interruption to be farmers, or even to be non-vegetarians. I don't trust absolute judgements -- I think we should be able to express what we do or don't like about new technology. And leave the door open for the possibility that technology meeting our requirements may someday be possible. ======================== David Robison Stellar Processes From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 19 19:16:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA29788 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11661; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:00:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11543 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:57:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-89.s26.as1.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.89]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id SAA26591 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3793AE0A.5B409C8@erols.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:00:26 -0400 From: Rex Harrill X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Phyto-remediation References: <199907191637.MAA06579@envirolink.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1318 Dave Robison wrote: > At 12:36 PM 7/18/99 -0500, you wrote: > >In biodynamics there is ZERO TOLERANCE for GM, regardless of how pragmatic > >it may appear initially in some applications. > > > >-Allan Balliett > > Excuse me, Allan but who made you the authority on what biodynamics is or is > not. Well if no one else has the guts to speak up, I will. Allan, I think you're one hell of a fine authority on a rightful position for BD to take as regards genetically engineered organisms. You're certainly speaking for me when you say there is absolutely NO room for junky GM semi-science. Actually, I should think one doesn't have to be an "authority" to instantly condemn something so inherently wrong. > Lets face it -- any kind of farming is bio-engineering of a sort. Sorry, but I can't buy that. It's the same old double-speak crap Monsanto is spewing. > We are taking an eco-system and "tuning" it to produce more of certain species > than it would do in the "wild". Agreed---and BD does it with love, compassion, and a respect for Nature's relentless drive toward balance. > The methods we use include "slow" use of genetics, breeding variety by > traditional methods. More Monsanto newspeak---laboratory insertion of forign genes, such as the fish gene they implanted in a tomato, cannot possibly be palmed off as the equivalent of natural selection or breeding. > I also recognize the value that may be introduced by more > nutrious foodstuffs, cheap vacines, phyto remediation of our pollution > products. I think there is a legitimate question of how we can integrate the > new technology -- and not dismiss it out of hand. The first two you mentioned are already proving false. The third needs no loosing of evilness on the land to be part of a healthy program. Regards, Rex Harrill From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 19 23:43:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA04342 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 23:43:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA28502; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 23:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA28330 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 23:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-27.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-27.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.27]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA89906 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 03:26:31 GMT Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 03:26:31 GMT Message-Id: <199907200326.DAA89906@out2.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: Phyto-remediation Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1319 Who knows, maybe in 1000 years GE might be advanced enough to be useful and ecological. But to get there implies so many mistakes that what would have already been Gengineered would be so messed up that it would take another 1000 years to unravel it... ( if we were to survive that long) What I see as a good use for genetic knowledge: now that 'they' say they can identify genes that make plants better at absorbing heavy metals, then maybe they could just use this technique to selectively breed for that characteristic. But even this has problems if the plant has any relationship to food (most plants seem to be food for something). But before we all (and I don't mean members of this list!) go growing these plants to clear poisoned land, we need to know what to do with the result: toxic vegetation! We can't just compost it, we need to be able to extract the toxins. And this hardly would solve the big problem: residues of pesticides and herbicides and various other toxic deposits. This leads me to comment on something that concerns me: that (as I understand it) the Demeter standard does not seem to specify anything about soil test results in terms of granting certification to a grower. Thus a person can, with appropriate practices, gain full certification in three years even on land that is heavily polluted. ------------------------------- Another thing that annoys me is that the grower can take the trouble to grow Demeter, but when I buy it in the shop its in a plastic bag. (Plastic leachates being a bit of a worry). ------------------------------- Lynton From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 04:03:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA00646 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 04:03:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA05657; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 03:02:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA01294 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 00:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d143.infoserve.net [199.175.157.143]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA20872 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000801bed268$ef0a1640$8f9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Phyto-remediation Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:32:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1320 Dear Lynton and bdnow'ers, I would like to point out that on my post about plants that bio-accumulate, non of them were GE plants. They just naturally did a better job than many other plants in absorbing certain metals. The most common applications for the use of these plants is to de-toxify mine-slag sites and damage caused by pesticide and agro-chemical run-off into rivers, lakes, marshes and oceans. There is extensive research going on in this area in S. US. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Lynton Blair To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, July 19, 1999 8:33 PM Subject: Re: Phyto-remediation >Who knows, maybe in 1000 years GE might be advanced enough to be useful and >ecological. But to get there implies so many mistakes that what would have >already been Gengineered would be so messed up that it would take another >1000 years to unravel it... ( if we were to survive that long) > >What I see as a good use for genetic knowledge: now that 'they' say they can >identify genes that make plants better at absorbing heavy metals, then maybe >they could just use this technique to selectively breed for that >characteristic. But even this has problems if the plant has any >relationship to food (most plants seem to be food for something). >But before we all (and I don't mean members of this list!) go growing these >plants to clear poisoned land, we need to know what to do with the result: >toxic vegetation! We can't just compost it, we need to be able to extract >the toxins. >And this hardly would solve the big problem: residues of pesticides and >herbicides and various other toxic deposits. > >This leads me to comment on something that concerns me: that (as I >understand it) the Demeter standard does not seem to specify anything about >soil test results in terms of granting certification to a grower. Thus a >person can, with appropriate practices, gain full certification in three >years even on land that is heavily polluted. >------------------------------- >Another thing that annoys me is that the grower can take the trouble to grow >Demeter, but when I buy it in the shop its in a plastic bag. (Plastic >leachates being a bit of a worry). >------------------------------- >Lynton > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 04:31:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA01758 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 04:31:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA05699; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 03:02:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA01451 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 00:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d143.infoserve.net [199.175.157.143]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA21112 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <003701bed269$a984bc00$8f9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Jeanne and GM Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:38:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0034_01BED22E.FC5C7980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1321 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BED22E.FC5C7980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Like any technology, it can be used for the common good, or, for the = common bad. GE appears on the surface to be used mostly for the common = bad so far. However, from the spiritual-scientific point of view, this = type of human manipulation is equivalent to playing God bigtime. The = old way of bringing new species and cultivars worked with nature. GE = tech. seems to be working against Nature, at least most of the time. M. -----Original Message----- From: ALISON EADES To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, July 19, 1999 9:50 AM Subject: Jeanne and GM =20 =20 Jeanne=20 What value system? Does our modern world hold one? To my mind GM is = interfering with the subtle energies and patterns that link every living = thing together. The consequence of changing the building blocks of = nature without knowing the knock-on effects will be - in true Gaia sense = - to upset the balance of everything. But that is not a good scientific = argument for stopping GM, scientists need more data and proof which = means data will emerge to support GM and data will emerge to support the = cessation of GM.=20 What niggles me is actually the fact that trials to determine = whether GM crops are 'safe' or not are based on our still limited = science. Some cientists may well 'prove' certain GM crops are safe. Then = what? What can we do if some of these scientists who are standing up to = corporations now by demanding more research, in 5 years time agree in = principle that certain types of genetic engineering can go ahead. I = think you may be right that GM is here to stay. Maybe the best we can do = is push for a totally open information system, for clear labelling, for = continued public debate, and on the other side to promote havens of BD = land, encouraging consumers towards organic and eventually biodynamic = ethics and produce. Whether GE is right or wrong is a hard nut to crack = for the public when it comes to producing medicinal drugs cheaply from = plants. I would think these crops will get general support.=20 In 20 years time we will have had our first Chernobyl of Genetic = Engineering and the organic/BD lobby will be prepared to show the way. = Although we have a high proportion of people in Britain not wanting GM = food I do not believe there will be marching in the streets if the US = wins a battle at the World Trade Organisation and GM soya etc. floods = into Europe. It is going to be a long winter and alongside the lobbying = must be the development of the organic/BD sector. We need to be around, = with a consistently high profile, for people like your friend who simply = hadn't realised what was going on.=20 Money is key. Organic groups have long been short of it but it would = surely help to set up a strong information base which will continually = feed the public facts and counter-arguments as the GM story rolls on. = Maybe initiatives like Allan's BDNOW will gradually join up, strengthen, = grow, and begin reaching mainstream media with even more force and show = how a confused public can access organic/BD food near them.=20 It was interesting when I visited my sister-in-law recently in = Belgium. She has long since decided her children have to be fed organic = food and the latest dioxin scare just confirmed her stance. When I = looked at the packaging it was all Demeter (BD certified) produce and = she didn't know there was a difference. Nor should she - at the moment = we need the strength of being part of the organic lobby. Later, when = there is better general understanding we can get into more detail to = show the benefits of biodynamics.=20 Just my thoughts...=20 Alison=20 =20 =20 Jeanne Mozier wrote:=20 Folks=20 This post about GM being used to breed plants that can clean up = heavy=20 metals poses what I believe is the real crucial question. There = is no=20 doubt that genetic manipulation is here to stay, the same way = artificial=20 intelligence is. The issue becomes the value system developed = to guide=20 the use of technology.=20 We need philosophers and ethicists to direct the scientists. The = astrology of the time gives us hope promising that just those = types of=20 souls are being incarnated during this decade -- beginning in = the=20 mid-'90s. Let's hope they get to work soon.=20 Jeanne Mozier =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BED22E.FC5C7980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Like any technology, it = can be used for=20 the common good, or, for the common bad. GE appears on the surface to be = used=20 mostly for the common bad so far.  However, from the = spiritual-scientific=20 point of view, this type of human manipulation is equivalent to playing = God=20 bigtime.  The old way of bringing new species and cultivars worked = with=20 nature.  GE tech. seems to be working against Nature, at least most = of the=20 time. M.
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 ALISON EADES <alison@raithby.globalnet.c= o.uk>
To:=20 bdnow@envirolink.org = <bdnow@envirolink.org>
D= ate:=20 Monday, July 19, 1999 9:50 AM
Subject: Jeanne and=20 GM

Jeanne=20

What value system? Does our modern world hold one? To my mind GM = is=20 interfering with the subtle energies and patterns that link every = living=20 thing together. The consequence of changing the building blocks of = nature=20 without knowing the knock-on effects will be - in true Gaia sense - = to upset=20 the balance of everything. But that is not a good scientific = argument for=20 stopping GM, scientists need more data and proof which means data = will=20 emerge to support GM and data will emerge to support the = cessation of=20 GM.=20

What niggles me is actually the fact that trials to determine = whether GM=20 crops are 'safe' or not are based on our still limited science. Some = cientists may well 'prove' certain GM crops are safe. Then what? = What can we=20 do if some of these scientists who are standing up to corporations = now by=20 demanding more research,  in 5 years time agree in principle = that=20 certain types of genetic engineering can go ahead. I think you may = be right=20 that GM is here to stay. Maybe the best we can do is push for a = totally open=20 information system, for clear labelling, for continued public = debate, and on=20 the other side to promote havens of BD land, encouraging consumers = towards=20 organic and eventually biodynamic ethics and produce. Whether GE is = right or=20 wrong is a hard nut to crack for the public when it comes to = producing=20 medicinal drugs cheaply from plants. I would think these crops will = get=20 general support.=20

In 20 years time we will have had our first Chernobyl of Genetic=20 Engineering and the organic/BD lobby will be prepared to show the = way.=20 Although we have a high proportion of people in Britain not wanting = GM food=20 I do not believe there will be marching in the streets if the US = wins a=20 battle at the World Trade Organisation and GM soya etc. floods into = Europe.=20 It is going to be a long winter and alongside the lobbying must be = the=20 development of the organic/BD sector. We need to be around, with a=20 consistently high profile, for people like your friend who simply = hadn't=20 realised what was going on.=20

Money is key. Organic groups have long been short of it but it = would=20 surely help to set up a strong information base which will = continually feed=20 the public facts and counter-arguments as the GM story rolls on. = Maybe=20 initiatives like Allan's BDNOW will gradually join up, strengthen, = grow, and=20 begin reaching mainstream media with even more force and show = how a=20 confused public can access organic/BD food near them.=20

It was interesting when I visited my sister-in-law recently in = Belgium.=20 She has long since decided her children have to be fed organic food = and the=20 latest dioxin scare just confirmed her stance. When I looked at the=20 packaging it was all Demeter (BD certified) produce and she didn't = know=20 there was a difference. Nor should she - at the moment we need the = strength=20 of being part of the organic lobby. Later, when there is better = general=20 understanding we can get into more detail to show the benefits of=20 biodynamics.=20

Just my thoughts...=20

Alison
 
 =20

Jeanne Mozier wrote:=20

Folks=20

This post about GM being used to breed plants that can clean = up heavy=20
metals poses what I believe is the real crucial = question. =20 There is no
doubt that genetic manipulation is here to stay, = the=20 same way artificial
intelligence is.  The issue becomes = the=20 value system developed to guide
the use of technology.=20

We need philosophers and ethicists to direct the scientists. = The=20
astrology of the time gives us hope promising that just = those types=20 of
souls are being incarnated during this decade -- = beginning in the=20
mid-'90s.  Let's hope they get to work soon.=20

Jeanne Mozier

  = ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BED22E.FC5C7980-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 10:09:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11123 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:09:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28600; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28395 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:51:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip052.computer.net [140.186.252.52]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA12979 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:52:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:53:21 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: July 18, 1999 - July 24, 1999 Message-ID: <7024DEC2AEA16591852567B4004C44AB.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id JAA28399 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1322 Calendar of the Soul [July 18, 1999 - July 24, 1999] Sixteenth Week (July 21-27) To bear in inward keeping spirit bounty Is stern command of my prophetic feeling, That ripened gifts divine Maturing in the depths of soul To selfhood bring their fruits. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Zu bergen Geistgeschenk im Innern, Gebeitet strenge mir mein Ahnen, Dass reifend Gottesgaben In Seelengründen fruchtend Der Selbstheit Früchte bringen. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+16 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 11:38:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14156 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:38:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05213; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:22:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05088 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:21:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.201.205]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:23:16 +0100 Message-ID: <3794953E.70E@cwcom.net> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:26:54 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: GM Foods ban Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1323 Sainsbury's, a major British supermarket chain, announced yesterday that it had eliminated GM constituents from all its own-brand products - they were previously very conscientious about labelling. Tesco (currently the largest chain) and a third, smaller company claim that they too will achieve this before the end of the year; Tesco seemed genuinely embarrassed and contrite when independent tests found small quantities of a GM constituent in an unlabelled own-brand pizza. The smaller Iceland and Marks & Spencer have been GM-free for some time. The US superchain Wal-Mart has recently bought up Asda, the third largest British supermarket company; will they follow suit, or rely on lower prices to maintain competition with the rest ? Does anybody know Wal-Mart's present stance on GM foods ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 11:58:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA15572 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:58:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06911; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:43:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06726 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:42:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.73] (pm3mbr2-166-73.intrepid.net [209.190.166.73]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21760 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:43:59 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:47:24 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD: Re: RoundUp -Reply Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1324 Hugh, for what its worth glyphosate is not a chlorinated hydrocarbon it contains no chlorine or any other halogen, it is N-(phosphonomethyl)glycine and looks something like this: HO2CCH2NHCH2P=O (OH)2 the (OH)2 is attache to the P opposite the =O the long chain molecule with comparatively weak bonds is what gives it its reputed breakdown and shutdown quality once in contact with the soil. I still resist using it despite seriously invasive thistle and Johnson grass on my place. A biocide is a biocide and any use requires caution and recognition of what you are dealing with. All, again for what its worth the use of a wick applicator, when faced with Johnson grass on his place years ago Wendell Berry used a rag attached to a stick, eliminates any drift upon application. Theoretically wick application results in contact kill only with minimal chemical use and none any where but in the "pest" plants... Best, Ted USDA Office of Pest Management Policy From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 12:04:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15663 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:04:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07012; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:44:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06755 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp315.cy-net.net [208.21.195.124]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10961 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:44:16 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BED29C.1DAF2020@FLYLO>; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:39:16 -0500 Message-ID: <01BED29C.1DAF2020@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: GM Foods ban Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:31:55 -0500 Encoding: 9 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1325 Tony, gut instinct says Wal-Mart, no matter where they're involved in retail sales will always go for the low end market. They MAY bow to pressure by the examples set by the other retailers, but if they follow the patterns they abide by in the States, they'll be the one to offer 'buyer beware' products. Reasoning that 'someone' has to offer food for the low end consumers, they'll probably keep quiet about the history/ingredients/etc as long as they can make huge sales. martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 12:06:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15723 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:06:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07680; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07471 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:49:03 -0400 (EDT) From: HILAWRIGHT@aol.com Received: from HILAWRIGHT@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id hQGMa05695 (4312) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:48:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <61e265cd.24c5f460@aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:48:48 EDT Subject: how to repel mosquitoes To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows 95 sub 176 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1326 I've had a thought as a result of following the thread on keeping ants out of the house. There was a suggestion that there's something in certain individuals which attracts the ants to them. What about mosquitoes? I seem to be very attractive to them, and I'm about to spend time in the tropics where in the past I've been driven crazy by bites. Sometimes they got infected. I'd like to avoid that if I can. It occurred to me that there may be something in me that is attracting the insects, and that there is therefore something I can do/change to persuade them to go elsewhere. Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with this? Maybe I should just let them sting me until I become immune? Thanks Hilary From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 12:15:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15941 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:15:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08315; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:57:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08056 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:54:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.200.129]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:56:34 +0100 Message-ID: <37949D15.CDC@cwcom.net> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:00:21 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Bees and GM plants Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1327 Michael - I tried to respond to your personal e-mail address, but I received an 'undeliverable mail' message that I wasn't allowed to post to infoserve.net (?); so I must use BDNow! to tell you yes, please copy my summary of the "New Scientist" article to whomever you please. I'm sure we're all grateful enough to you for your regular copying of GM news from around the world. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 12:16:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15964 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:16:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08410; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:58:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08083 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.200.129]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:56:33 +0100 Message-ID: <37949BD1.11D9@cwcom.net> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:54:57 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Dioxin, World Trade and GMOs References: <37909EC8.DC9@cwcom.net> <37B9F3EC.34D6F92B@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> <3791EB85.4A71@cwcom.net> <37BC32D2.5F913752@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1328 Alison - The puzzle of normal, decent people behaving badly in their trade or profession is just a consequence of the frailty of human nature, I guess, as presented by Ibsen (An Enemy of the People) through to 'Jaws' (which was repeated, yet again, on British TV recently). After all, Hitler was a vegetarian who liked dogs and children... Trouble is, there are infinite grades of grey between most people's notions of black and white. The use of genetic engineering for 'good' purposes (vaccine production and remediation of heavy-metal pollution), which has just given rise to a rift in opinions in this forum, is a good example, as is the continuing dilemma about the use of animal experimentation for genuine medical advancement as opposed to the testing of cosmetics or food additives. Incidentally, Michael is quite right to point out that plants can be developed to aid the remediation of polluted land without the use of genetic engineering; as early as the mid-1960s, this was being proposed as a means of dealing with urban air pollution by (for example) Robbins, Beck & Weigle at Iowa State U., although they used the term 'detoxiculture' rather than phyto-remediation. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 13:01:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA19322 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:01:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11334; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11166 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d144.infoserve.net [199.175.157.144]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA19202 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001c01bed2cf$44a9e240$909dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: how to repel mosquitoes Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:44:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1329 Mosquitos are attracted by certain body odors and the C02 in your breath. If you don't breathe, that may help!! Masking your body odors helps, also, smoking a pipe. M. -----Original Message----- From: HILAWRIGHT@aol.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 8:56 AM Subject: how to repel mosquitoes >I've had a thought as a result of following the thread on keeping ants out of >the house. > >There was a suggestion that there's something in certain individuals which >attracts the ants to them. > >What about mosquitoes? >I seem to be very attractive to them, and I'm about to spend time in the >tropics where in the past I've been driven crazy by bites. Sometimes they got >infected. I'd like to avoid that if I can. > >It occurred to me that there may be something in me that is attracting the >insects, and that there is therefore something I can do/change to persuade >them to go elsewhere. > >Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with this? >Maybe I should just let them sting me until I become immune? > >Thanks >Hilary > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 15:33:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA23957 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00750; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:09:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13397 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:06:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp315.cy-net.net [208.21.195.124]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22782 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:08:16 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BED2A7.D7E78BC0@FLYLO>; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:03:13 -0500 Message-ID: <01BED2A7.D7E78BC0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: how to repel mosquitoes Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:03:09 -0500 Encoding: 24 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1330 Hilary; In Belize, the standard practice is to drink vast quantities of the local vodka and rum. It's supposed to change body chemistry enough that the insects tend to avoid you. Didn't work for me, though. I caught a rousing bout of malaria during a hurricane aftermath (tremendous mosquito overload). Malaria and alcohol don't mix well (the hangover from Hell) so I did come home with a fairly personal abstinence program in place. And, come to think of it, our own Texas mosquitoes tend to avoid me to some extent, even without the drinks! The general recommendations in place, wear light colored clothes, long pants and sleeves, stay where there is a breeze, avoid perfumes or perfumed soaps, etc, will help to some extent. Eating garlic enough to scent your skin may help, but then if you're the only person in your party to partake, you may be the ONLY person in your party. Avon Skin So Soft and Cutters has a brand similar that repels mosquitoes. The work crews around here dilute SOS with water or rubbing alcohol so the smell isn't so strong and it still works. I don't know what's in it that may be harmful to the skin for long term use. Also, try to locate a bar of goat milk soap. Even lightly fragranced, the stuff I make seems to be pretty good about keeping bugs away. At least, those who use it who haven't had malaria are reporting it to be somewhat beneficial. (also good for poison ivy/oak rashes). (martha) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 15:34:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA23966 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:33:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00827; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19126 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.204]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990720183411.BYIJ957005.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:34:11 +1200 Message-ID: <3794C0EE.51FC@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:33:18 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Mosquitos Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1331 > What about mosquitoes? > I seem to be very attractive to them, and I'm about to spend time in the > tropics where in the past I've been driven crazy by bites. Sometimes they got > infected. I'd like to avoid that if I can. > It has been my observation that not all people in a particular environment will be biten by mosquitos. It appears those with a greatly disturbed astral body and weak etheric are most prone to mosquito bites. GAruda Astral Cooler and Etherics 3 are the answer I use. A few drops of Citronella oil does wonders. Waiting for immunity to develop in the tropics may mean a case of malaria or dengy fever along the way. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 15:34:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA23979 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:34:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00864; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:10:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fpo.chudys.com (fpo.gloryroad.net [12.4.13.43]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00222 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:06:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wills (opop2-218 [216.228.98.218]) by fpo.chudys.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA07998 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:54:31 GMT Message-ID: <3794C8C0.3D1@gloryroad.net> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:06:40 -0400 From: Will Hicks Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: how to repel mosquitoes References: <61e265cd.24c5f460@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1332 HILAWRIGHT@aol.com wrote: > It occurred to me that there may be something in me that is attracting the > insects, and that there is therefore something I can do/change to persuade > them to go elsewhere. > > Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with this? > Maybe I should just let them sting me until I become immune? I've heard that people who have 'healthy' amounts of certain B-vitamins are less suceptible to mosquito bites, although I don't know for sure. Sometimes I can have the edge taken off of mosquito assaults by crushing wax myrtle leaves and rubbing it on exposed areas. Good luck! Will Hicks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 18:17:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA27929 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:17:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA11482; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:02:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06037 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:31:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp2.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.102]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA13118 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:28:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <009101bed2ee$9973b8e0$664b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: Subject: CBS News/Genetic ID Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:29:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1333 FYI all, Snipped from the GEN7-20 (R. Wolfson) post: "Genetic ID on CBS Evening News July 21st and 22nd On July 21st and 22nd (Wednesday and Thursday) Genetic ID is scheduled to be featured on the CBS Evening News. The CBS camera crew was in Fairfield a couple of weeks ago to do the shooting." From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 18:56:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA28727 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14159; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14115 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:35:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-189.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-189.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.189]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA86312 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:36:46 GMT Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:36:46 GMT Message-Id: <199907202236.WAA86312@out2.ibm.net> X-Sender: lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: FWD: Re: RoundUp -Reply Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1334 Ted, I am under the impression that RoundUp is volatile, and will evaporate from any application? Lynton At 11:47 AM 7/20/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hugh, for what its worth glyphosate is not a chlorinated hydrocarbon it >contains no chlorine or any other halogen, it is >N-(phosphonomethyl)glycine and looks something like this: > >HO2CCH2NHCH2P=O > (OH)2 > >the (OH)2 is attache to the P opposite the =O > >the long chain molecule with comparatively weak bonds is what gives it >its reputed breakdown and shutdown quality once in contact with the >soil. > >I still resist using it despite seriously invasive thistle and Johnson grass >on my place. A biocide is a biocide and any use requires caution and >recognition of what you are dealing with. > >All, again for what its worth the use of a wick applicator, when faced >with Johnson grass on his place years ago Wendell Berry used a rag >attached to a stick, eliminates any drift upon application. Theoretically >wick application results in contact kill only with minimal chemical use and >none any where but in the "pest" plants... > >Best, > >Ted >USDA >Office of Pest Management Policy > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 20:21:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA00530 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA19048; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:05:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18781 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:02:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-032.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.132]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07674 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:16:12 +1200 Message-ID: <001301bed30a$48287fe0$84f631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: how to repel mosquitoes Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:46:04 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1335 Dear Hilary, A lady down at Mangawhai Heads, Karen Gregory, on Northlands Pacific Coast, collected mosquitoes, crushed them in a pestle and mortar, and succussed them to D6, keeping the D6 potency in Vodka, the purpose was an upcoming Xmas barbeque and cocktail party out on the verhanda overlooking the harbour and bar. Past experience had shown that the mossies would drive everyonr in doors. She made a preliminary mistake by explaining to her guests what she was going to put in thier drinks! However once this was brushed off as a BD idiosyncracy and joke in bad taste everyone forgot. So karen simply took her wee bottle of brew inside and kept it by the drinks, and each time she offered to renew her guests drinks she slipped a few drops of the Mosquito brew in! She got a bit of teasing later on in the evening because all the guests pointed out to her that she neednt have tried to pull the "mashed up mosquito stunt" on them as no mossies attacked them all evening! This is true, and Karen is a very resourceful BD'er and long time memeber of the Northland group. Cheers Gareth Bodle -----Original Message----- From: HILAWRIGHT@aol.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, 21 July 1999 04:10 AM Subject: how to repel mosquitoes >I've had a thought as a result of following the thread on keeping ants out of >the house. > >There was a suggestion that there's something in certain individuals which >attracts the ants to them. > >What about mosquitoes? >I seem to be very attractive to them, and I'm about to spend time in the >tropics where in the past I've been driven crazy by bites. Sometimes they got >infected. I'd like to avoid that if I can. > >It occurred to me that there may be something in me that is attracting the >insects, and that there is therefore something I can do/change to persuade >them to go elsewhere. > >Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with this? >Maybe I should just let them sting me until I become immune? > >Thanks >Hilary > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 20:23:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA00606 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:23:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA19206; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:08:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19034 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-032.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.132]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07839 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:19:24 +1200 Message-ID: <001801bed30a$ba3016c0$84f631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: CBS News/Genetic ID Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:51:02 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1336 What is this about...do you have any more info? I could see if TVNZ is going to get hold of it or lobby them that there might be viewer interest. Cheers Gareth Bodle -----Original Message----- From: Julie To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, 21 July 1999 10:20 AM Subject: CBS News/Genetic ID >FYI all, > >Snipped from the GEN7-20 (R. Wolfson) post: > >"Genetic ID on CBS Evening News July 21st and 22nd > >On July 21st and 22nd (Wednesday and Thursday) Genetic ID is scheduled to >be featured on the CBS Evening News. The CBS camera crew was in Fairfield a >couple of weeks ago to do the shooting." > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 20 21:06:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA01227 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA20677; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:49:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from r1.boston.juno.com (r1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.50]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA20590 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:47:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by r1.boston.juno.com (8.8.6.Beta0/8.8.7/juno-1.1) with ESMTP id QAAAA17412 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:40:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from laquerencia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EFZE7BUY; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:36:00 EDT To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:36:52 -0500 Subject: Re: GM Foods ban Message-ID: <19990720.153653.16542.0.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: <01BED29C.1DAF2020@flylo> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 11-13,15-24 From: Deborah M Byron Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1337 Re: Tony's question about Wal-Mart's Policy on GE--I strongly agree with Martha's assessment. Living as I do at Wally World ground zero, I'm currently watching them test market their new "neighborhood market" food stores--supposedly a smaller, more user-friendly version of what they've had in the super cneters. I haven't been in one but I can tell you that they sure aren't small and of course the other super market chains around here will probably have to struggle to stay in business. Its beginning to look like Wal-Mart now wants to take over distributing as much of the food supply as they can (jeez, don't they control enough money?). So sadly I'd say our European friends better expect them to be instrumental in trying to breach your defenses against importing GE foods and bad beef. Deborah in beautiful NW Arkansas--home of Wal-Mart, Tyson's and (thankfully) ATTRA ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jul 21 04:50:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA10423 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 04:50:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA13387; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 04:35:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA13120 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 04:31:40 -0400 (EDT) From: TaraStarrr@aol.com Received: from TaraStarrr@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id hWNZa24210 (4228) for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 04:32:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9f8d9c2e.24c6dfa9@aol.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 04:32:41 EDT Subject: Re: how to repel mosquitoes To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1338 Hello Hilary, I currently am living in Kaua'i, Hawai'i and have spent a good amount of time in the last ten years in the tropics. When we first arrived back here after living off island for three years, my six year old son was heartily attacted by the little creatures. They bothered him quite a bit until his skin got used to the mosquito poison (or whatever it is) they affected him with. Now they don't bother him as much, thank goodness. In my experience mosquitos are attracted to people who eat sugar. This might of been the case with my boy, or maybe they liked him for his fresh, young skin...?... It does seem that the more sugar you ingest, the more they will be attracted to you. Hope this helps. Good luck! Aloha, Tara From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jul 21 06:25:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA11358 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA15724; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:10:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA15669 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:09:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.75] (pm3mbr2-166-69.intrepid.net [209.190.166.69]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA31841 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:10:47 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:14:53 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: BD and GMOs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1339 "But just as we have to look at the whole Earth when we want to explain how a compass needle behaves, so must we also consult the whole universe when it comes to understanding plants. It is not enough to look only at the plant, animal, or human kingdoms. Life comes from the whole universe, not merely from what the Earth provides. Nature is a unity, with forces working in from all sides. Those whose eyes are open to these manifest forces will be able to understand nature. But what does today's science do? It takes a little glass plate and puts a carefully prepared something-or-other on it, gets rid of everything else and peers at it through something called a microscope. That is the exact opposite of what we ought to be doing. if we want to comprehend the full dimensions of the world. It is bad enough to be shut up in a room, but now we shut out the whole glorous world with this tube. Nothing remains but what we see through the lens of the microscope. This is what we've gradually come to. But when we are able to find our way back to the microcosm, then we will once again begin to understand something about nature - - and about many other things too." Spiritual Foundations for the Renewal of Agriculture, Creegar/Gardner trans, pp129-130 This passage from AGRICULTURE is just one of many that demonstrate why the concept of gene manipulation is repugnant to the sensibilities of biodynamic growers and consumers. -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jul 21 09:45:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA14182 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:45:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22476; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:29:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22342 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:28:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d146.infoserve.net [199.175.157.146]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA24482 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001201bed37d$9fda2900$929dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF / Fw: GEN7-21 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:33:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1340 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Wednesday, July 21, 1999 3:01 AM Subject: GEN7-21 > >NATURAL LAW PARTY NEWS FLASH! > > >CBS's DAN RATHER INTERVIEWS MOLECULAR BIOLOGIST DR. JOHN FAGAN ABOUT THE >HAZARDS OF GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOODS > >CBS-TV has just informed us that Dan Rather of CBS Evening News will >interview John Fagan, Ph.D., a molecular biologist who is an eloquent >international spokesperson concerning the hazards of genetically engineered >foods, on Wednesday, July 21, and Thursday, July 22, during the 5:30 p.m. >(Central time) national broadcast of CBS Evening News. Please tune in >according to your time zone. > >.............. > >Sainsbury says own-brand ingredients GM-free > >http://www.planeta >rk.org/dailynewsstory.cfm?newsid=2242 >UK: July 20, 1999 > >LONDON - British supermarket chain J. Sainsbury Plc said yesterday it had >won the race between UK supermarkets to eliminate genetically modified >ingredients from its own-brand products. > >Consumer fears about unknowingly eating "Frankenstein foods" have risen >dramatically in Britain this year, leading major chains to clearly indicate >the presence of GM ingredients until they are replaced by natural >substitutes. > >"GM has been one of the most important issues for our customers over the >past few months and we wanted to make a clear statement," Sainsbury group >Chief Executive Dino Adriano said. > >Sainsbury said it had whittled down the number of products containing GM >soya protein - the main source of public concern - from 45 to zero since >January. > >All its suppliers are now required to certify that soya and related >ingredients come from verified non-GM crops. > >........... > >UK Minister tells GM firms - public comes first > >http://www.planeta >rk.org/dailynewsstory.cfm?newsid=2170 >UK: July 19, 1999 > >British Environment Minister Michael Meacher warned genetic food >manufacturers on Saturday he would not be pressured into "riding >rough-shod" over safety procedures designed to protect the public interest. > >His latest comments came against growing public calls for tighter controls >on the development of GM crops, dubbed "Frankenstein foods" by the British >media. > >"I am not prepared to ride rough-shod over the regulatory and scientific >procedures in order to please Monsanto ," he told a conference on the >future of the ruling Labour Party, referring to the U.S. company which has >borne the brunt of the media backlash. > >Meacher said the interests of the public and business did not always coincide. > >"The job of government ...is to protect the public interest. We do not >believe what is good for Monsanto is good for the world," said the minister. > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jul 21 19:45:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA22090 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA01279; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:12:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22125 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:17:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:17:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907212017.QAA22125@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 11465 invoked from network); 21 Jul 1999 20:18:54 -0000 Received: from i48-25-41.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO DAVE) (216.26.8.41) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 21 Jul 1999 20:18:54 -0000 X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Re: BD and GMOs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1341 >This passage from AGRICULTURE is just one of many that demonstrate why the >concept of gene manipulation is repugnant to the sensibilities of >biodynamic growers and consumers. -Allan igg@igg.com What it says is that one should not operate science in the narrow-minded, reductionist sense that ignores the full system persepctive. Quite so. Yet RS was not opposed to a scientific method, he urged an empirical approach to demonstrate the preparations, planetary influences, etc. as evident in Kolisko's work. So one should not reject science or new technology, per se. Reject it, when appropriate, when it fails to consider the full system perspective. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jul 21 19:51:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA20052 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20054; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:40:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19727 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:37:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (cust97.nrvmax4.tor1.netrover.com [205.209.27.97]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA29218 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:38:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: Re: BD and GMOs Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:39:03 -0400 Message-ID: <01bed3b0$b040e3a0$7415d1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1342 Allan : I havent checked my book, but in the text, shouldn't it read ......."find our way back to the macrocosm"...... or am i missing the point? manfred palmer -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, July 21, 1999 6:12 AM Subject: BD and GMOs > >"But just as we have to look at the whole Earth when we want to explain how >a compass needle behaves, so must we also consult the whole universe when >it comes to understanding plants. It is not enough to look only at the >plant, animal, or human kingdoms. Life comes from the whole universe, not >merely from what the Earth provides. Nature is a unity, with forces working >in from all sides. Those whose eyes are open to these manifest forces will >be able to understand nature. But what does today's science do? It takes a >little glass plate and puts a carefully prepared something-or-other on it, >gets rid of everything else and peers at it through something called a >microscope. That is the exact opposite of what we ought to be doing. if we >want to comprehend the full dimensions of the world. It is bad enough to be >shut up in a room, but now we shut out the whole glorous world with this >tube. Nothing remains but what we see through the lens of the microscope. >This is what we've gradually come to. But when we are able to find our way >back to the microcosm, then we will once again begin to understand >something about nature - - and about many other things too." > >Spiritual Foundations for the Renewal of Agriculture, Creegar/Gardner >trans, pp129-130 > >This passage from AGRICULTURE is just one of many that demonstrate why the >concept of gene manipulation is repugnant to the sensibilities of >biodynamic growers and consumers. -Allan igg@igg.com > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jul 21 21:20:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29454 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:20:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA10982; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:02:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05155 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:08:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.24] (pm3mbr1-166-16.intrepid.net [209.190.166.16]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA11161 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:09:53 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01bed3b0$b040e3a0$7415d1cd@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:11:51 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: BD and GMOs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1343 >Allan : I havent checked my book, but in the text, shouldn't it read >......."find our way back to the macrocosm"...... or am i missing the point? >manfred palmer I hope you're not missing the point, manfred! :-) You're most definitely correct. Thanks for pointing this out. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jul 21 23:20:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA01218 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:20:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA20418; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:01:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20317 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:59:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (cust4.nrvmax6.tor1.netrover.com [206.186.85.4]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA01491 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:01:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "manfred palmer" To: "bdnow" Subject: OFF [community opportunity] Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:05:43 -0400 Message-ID: <01bed3ef$16570a00$0455bace@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01BED3CD.8F456A00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1344 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BED3CD.8F456A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just in case there is a group out there who might see the potential here = as another BD enclave, or whatever, might preserve an apparently cared = -for property, I thought i would pass it on. I have no connection = whatsoever with it. ...manfred palmer. Community Forming=20 John Dixon on Mon 19Jul99, 11:13 PM (IST)=20 I have recently learned of an opportunity to purchase a property which = has been an intentional community for many years. I am looking for = others who might be interested in now creating a new community there. This property has 177,000 square feet of living, school and business = space on 50 acres of land. It is located in Norfolk, Connecticut which = is a lovely little village in the Berkshires Mountains, best known for = the Yale summer music learning center. Wonderful concerts go on there = all summer. The property is owned by the Bruderhof commuities. They have two other = sites in New York and Pennsylvania. They are consolidating their living = to these two other sites and so selling the Connecticut site. They are a = religious community which first came to this country as refugees from = the Nazis. To me it would be sad to see this property which was built so lovingly = for use as an intentional community lost from that use and fall into the = hands of a developer whose only motive is to make a profit. Perhaps my = motive to keep the property in communitarian hands is not the best = reason for suggesting the formation of a new community, but it seems = like a good opportunity for anyone who might be interested in helping = form a community in Connecticut. The property is well designed for use = as a community, so it seems like communitarians would have an advantage = in taking over the property. It once housed as many as 400 people. What we need is people who have creative ideas for use of such extensive = living space. Perhaps a community which operates some kind of learning = center? An alternative medicine retreat? A new university designed to = operate on communitarian principles? Other ideas? Anyone with interest or ideas, please get back to me. I will probably be = arranging to take a tour of the property within the next couple of = weeks. Anyone who is nearby could join me in this. John Dixon 203-397-3877 johnjanedixon@hotmail.com 55 Elmwood Road, New Haven, CT 06515 Email Address: johnjanedixon@hotmail.com Mail Address: 55 Elmwood Road, New Haven CT 06515 Phone: 203-397-3877 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BED3CD.8F456A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just in case there is a group out there who = might see=20 the potential here as another BD enclave, or whatever, might preserve an = apparently cared -for property, I thought i would pass it on. I have no=20 connection whatsoever with it.   ...manfred = palmer.
 
Community = Forming=20

John Dixon on Mon 19Jul99, 11:13 PM (IST)=20


I have recently learned of an opportunity to purchase a = property which=20 has been an intentional community for many years. I am looking for = others who=20 might be interested in now creating a new community there.

This = property=20 has 177,000 square feet of living, school and business space on 50 acres = of=20 land. It is located in Norfolk, Connecticut which is a lovely little = village in=20 the Berkshires Mountains, best known for the Yale summer music learning = center.=20 Wonderful concerts go on there all summer.

The property is owned = by the=20 Bruderhof commuities. They have two other sites in New York and = Pennsylvania.=20 They are consolidating their living to these two other sites and so = selling the=20 Connecticut site. They are a religious community which first came to = this=20 country as refugees from the Nazis.

To me it would be sad to see = this=20 property which was built so lovingly for use as an intentional community = lost=20 from that use and fall into the hands of a developer whose only motive = is to=20 make a profit. Perhaps my motive to keep the property in communitarian = hands is=20 not the best reason for suggesting the formation of a new community, but = it=20 seems like a good opportunity for anyone who might be interested in = helping form=20 a community in Connecticut. The property is well designed for use as a=20 community, so it seems like communitarians would have an advantage in = taking=20 over the property. It once housed as many as 400 people.

What we = need is=20 people who have creative ideas for use of such extensive living space. = Perhaps a=20 community which operates some kind of learning center? An alternative = medicine=20 retreat? A new university designed to operate on communitarian = principles? Other=20 ideas?

Anyone with interest or ideas, please get back to me. I = will=20 probably be arranging to take a tour of the property within the next = couple of=20 weeks. Anyone who is nearby could join me in this.

John=20 Dixon
203-397-3877
johnjanedixon@hotmail.com
55 Elmwood Road, = New=20 Haven, CT 06515

Email Address: johnjanedixon@hotmail.com
Mail=20 Address: 55 Elmwood Road, New Haven CT 06515
Phone:=20 203-397-3877

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BED3CD.8F456A00-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jul 22 11:34:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01978 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:34:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21098; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:14:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20917 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.202.183]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:13:40 +0100 Message-ID: <37973600.2091@cwcom.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:17:20 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: GM Foods ban References: <01BED29C.1DAF2020@flylo> <19990720.153653.16542.0.LaQuerencia@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1345 Martha and Deborah - Thanks for your comments about Wal-Mart, even though they make depressing reading! Regarding Wal-Mart's new "convenience stores": strangely, Sainsbury's have just announced smaller city-centre stores to complement their out-of-town supermarkets, commenting that they will be more "convenient". If they're this much on the ball, maybe they'll be able to hold off Wal-Mart's suspected breaching of the current attitude of British retailers to GE foods, after all ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jul 22 11:53:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA02833 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22949; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:35:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22213 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:27:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.201.57]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:29:14 +0100 Message-ID: <379739B5.26B4@cwcom.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:33:09 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF [community opportunity] References: <01bed3ef$16570a00$0455bace@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1346 Dear John - May I cheekily make a suggestion on which I'm in no way able to offer any practical help ? In a thread on this forum awhile back, I received a number of helpful postings when I enquired about Waldorf teaching; one of them commented that it could afford to ignore conventional views on (for example) the natural and physical sciences because these would be covered, if needed, when the students went on to further education. I don't know how much of a shock it is when a Waldorf graduate suddenly moves from a Steinerian view of things to the standard materialistic version, but wouldn't it be great to establish a Steiner-Waldorf _university_ ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jul 22 12:59:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA04500 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29632; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:43:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29505 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:42:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d159.infoserve.net [199.175.157.159]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA13461 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000e01bed461$ef85eb80$9f9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: GM Foods ban Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:47:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1347 Dear Tony, Martha, Deborah, Wal-Mart has come to Canada also in recent years. They are known for destroying the local economy of small towns and disrupting neighbourhood businesses where they are located. Judging from their behaviour and the "look" of their stores, I would very much doubt if GM sensitivity was on their agenda. It certainly is not here in Canada. Their only interest as far as I can tell is to become the largest chain of its type in the world. Only a consumer boycott would change any of their policies. M. -----Original Message----- From: Tony Nelson-Smith To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, July 22, 1999 8:19 AM Subject: Re: GM Foods ban >Martha and Deborah - Thanks for your comments about Wal-Mart, even >though they make depressing reading! Regarding Wal-Mart's new >"convenience stores": strangely, Sainsbury's have just announced smaller >city-centre stores to complement their out-of-town supermarkets, >commenting that they will be more "convenient". If they're this much on >the ball, maybe they'll be able to hold off Wal-Mart's suspected >breaching of the current attitude of British retailers to GE foods, >after all ? Tony N-S. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jul 22 13:01:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA04573 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:01:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29936; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:47:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29876 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:46:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d159.infoserve.net [199.175.157.159]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA13859 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001501bed462$90dae260$9f9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: OFF [community opportunity] Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:52:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1348 My personal view is that we have to live in the "outside world". I don't see why the Waldorf Science cannot be taught in lower school and in high school closer to conventional view. Then, they , with a catch-up year, can be able to choose carrers in engineering and the sciences, medical, etc. Otherwise, 2 things will happen. Waldorf Schools only prepare students for the Arts. If there is a Steiner University, then Waldorf Students can only go on to the Steiner U. and then what.....? Only teach at Waldorf Schools?? Only work at Wala, Weleda, Herdecke, etc.? I feel that Waldorf educated people need to be part of the Greater Society, not, hide themselves from it and isololate themselves. RS did say that Waldorf and Anthr. should become part of the general culture. Training kids only to go to a RS University and then only to become Waldorf Teachers in NOT what I think he had in mind. M. -----Original Message----- From: Tony Nelson-Smith To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, July 22, 1999 8:41 AM Subject: Re: OFF [community opportunity] >Dear John - May I cheekily make a suggestion on which I'm in no way able >to offer any practical help ? In a thread on this forum awhile back, I >received a number of helpful postings when I enquired about Waldorf >teaching; one of them commented that it could afford to ignore >conventional views on (for example) the natural and physical sciences >because these would be covered, if needed, when the students went on to >further education. I don't know how much of a shock it is when a >Waldorf graduate suddenly moves from a Steinerian view of things to the >standard materialistic version, but wouldn't it be great to establish a >Steiner-Waldorf _university_ ? Tony N-S. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jul 22 13:57:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA06113 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04161; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03998 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:39:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp233.cy-net.net [208.21.195.42]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA30002 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:41:30 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BED43E.BFD7BBC0@FLYLO>; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:35:58 -0500 Message-ID: <01BED43E.BFD7BBC0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Wal Mart kinda off topic Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:35:45 -0500 Encoding: 27 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1349 Well, I certainly attempt to stage a one person boycott whenever possible! The ONLY time I darken their doors these days is at 5am around Christmas and only if I'm out of mailing material, or other fine tuning necessities. But, as to the store moving in on local merchants; I have seen it locally too. A WalMart goes into a small town and the local stores move elsewhere. Pretty soon, the 'consumer inventory' that WalMart periodically does reveals that not enough people buy to make it economical to stay in business. SO, they then pack up and move out, leaving the town with NO retailers in operation. Has happened to a number of small Texas towns. I've had a 'campaign' against the chain for a number of years. My big gripe is that they don't price tag individual items. They just tag the shelf it sits on. THEN, the store stockers won't put items in the right place. I've been known to haul 3 - 5 bags (50 lbs each) of dry dog chow to the register, wait in line, have the folk behind me wait for me to go through. Have the clerk scan all the bags (since no prices, how am I supposed to know?), THEN tell them, nope, I don't think so, not today, and walk out, leaving the dog food for them to reshelve. I quit this when I decided it just wasn't worth it, but it was fun for awhile. (evil grin) Was it Sheryl Crowe who had a couple of lines in a song about WalMart selling guns in their sporting goods department? Whoever, the store tried to get the record pulled. Word to the wise, if you don't want your blood pressure to go up, stay out of ''Wally World'. Of course, now when they see me coming, they try to lock the doors! martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jul 22 14:08:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06380 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04805; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:52:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cougar.ssi.stratus.com (cougar.ssi.stratus.com [198.97.42.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04684 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:50:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by cougar.ssi.stratus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21781 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:46:41 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <01BED43E.BFD7BBC0@FLYLO> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Organization: Society for Real Time Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Charlie Hodgson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: RE: Wal Mart kinda off topic Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1350 On 22-Jul-99 Martha Wells wrote: > Was it Sheryl Crowe who had a couple of lines in a song about WalMart > selling guns in their sporting goods department? Whoever, the store tried > to get the record pulled. I believe it was; at that time I found out the Wal-Mart is the largest retailer of music in the U.S., and frequently have modified versions of the CDs made, as sometimes they don't like the cover graphics, lyrics, etc. With thier size, record companies cave in to them, but some artists don't. Charlie Hodgson From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jul 23 00:23:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA18095 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 00:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA11697; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 00:07:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA10503 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 00:01:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.117] ("port 2049"@[148.233.78.117]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FFB004DZ0CR8H@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:29:18 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:53:12 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: OFF [community opportunity] In-reply-to: <001501bed462$90dae260$9f9dafc7@333> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id AAA10505 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1351 >>Dear John - May I cheekily make a suggestion on which I'm in no way able >>to offer any practical help ? In a thread on this forum awhile back, I >>received a number of helpful postings when I enquired about Waldorf >>teaching; one of them commented that it could afford to ignore >>conventional views on (for example) the natural and physical sciences >>because these would be covered, if needed, when the students went on to >>further education. I don't know how much of a shock it is when a >>Waldorf graduate suddenly moves from a Steinerian view of things to the >>standard materialistic version, but wouldn't it be great to establish a >>Steiner-Waldorf _university_ ? Tony N-S. >> >> Dear John and Tony: I was considering some time back to participate in the Ecovillage in Ithaca, EVI. That project started and keeps going on with little upfront resources and it is still alive. They started with a mortgage on a piece of land, if you have buildings there already, it is even easier because you can finance more of the project. I believe that intention is the source of reality, so if you really want to make it happen, just include the viable concept into your beliefs framework and do it. But do not forget to invite me. It would be a dream come true. I know two or three families from around here that would be willing to invest $ 20-30 M, to have a community where their children could attend a Waldorf S, eat BD food, learn and practice Anthroposophy, ....... the works. I am sure there should be no problem putting together more families for the right concept. Cheers Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jul 23 00:42:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA18474 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 00:42:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA12338; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 00:24:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net (sys32.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.32]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA12306 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 00:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.211.141.211] (wt-d6-211.wt.net [208.211.141.211]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA27851; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:35:13 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: lamu@pop3.wt.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <001501bed462$90dae260$9f9dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:38:47 -0500 To: From: Andy R Subject: Re: OFF [community opportunity] Cc: bdnow@envirolink.org Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1352 Guillermo, That type of community would be very inviting. Are you saying one is developing in Mexico. $20-30 M, uh does M mean million and $ mean US $, just pondering. I would think a community could get easily established yesterday with that backing but then of course you need the body and souls of others, which seems to be the more challenging aspects of communities today. Guillermo, I think I asked you before what part of Mx you are in, but I have no recall of the answer. So what part of Mx are you in?? Are you familiar with the organic farm in Cabo San Lucas, we are getting products from them in our local Whole Fds in Houston, Tx. Cheers, Andy >Dear John and Tony: > >I believe that intention is the source of reality, so if you really want >to make it happen, just include the viable concept into your beliefs >framework and do it. But do not forget to invite me. It would be a dream >come true. > >I know two or three families from around here that would be willing to >invest $ 20-30 M, to have a community where their children could attend a >Waldorf S, eat BD food, learn and practice Anthroposophy, ....... the >works. I am sure there should be no problem putting together more >families for the right concept. > >Cheers > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jul 23 02:13:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA19207 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 02:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA16107; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 01:57:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA16028 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 01:55:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d173.infoserve.net [199.175.157.173]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA28482; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002201bed4d0$cdbaa580$ad9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Cc: "Peter Proctor (by way of BD NOW!)" Subject: Fw:OFF/ GEN7-22 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:01:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1353 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Thursday, July 22, 1999 7:17 PM Subject: GEN7-22 >The Gazette (Montreal) >Tue 20 Jul 1999 >PAGE B2 > >Genetically modified food poses risks > >Though taking on the appearance of balance and suggesting the voice of >reason, Dr. Joe Schwarcz's article on genetically modified or -engineered >food (Gazette, July 12, ``Genetic food for thought'') is problematic. > >While it is true that various plants and animals have been modified over >the centuries through crossbreeding, it should be noted that this occurs >between related species and, indeed, can occur without any human >involvement. For example, blue and fin whales can mate to produce hybrid >offspring. The process that brings about the aforementioned whales, or >seedless grapes, strikes me as a vastly different one from, say, the human >insertion of fish genetic material into tomatoes. > >..... > >THE CURSE OF FRANKENFOOD: GENETICALLY MODIFIED CROPS STIR UP CONTROVERSY AT >HOME AND ABROAD >(week of) July 26, 1999 >US News >PHILLIP J. LONGMAN >Another feature about genetically engineered foods, which begins by saying >that in speeches and on his Web site, the Prince of Wales warns that he >would never eat the stuff and proclaims that he won't stand for it being >grown on his land. Former Beatle Paul McCartney, when he learned that >traces could be found in his late wife Linda's vegetarian food line, >reacted with the same fear and revulsion as do most Britons: He ordered the >offending ingredient removed immediately. British newspapers now publish >advice columns on how to avoid feeding the stuff accidentally to your pets, >and protesters regularly vandalize farm fields where it is grown. >....... > >GM FOOD INFORMATION DISMISSED AS PROPAGANDA IN NEW ZEALAND > >AgBiotech Net >http://agbio.cabweb.org/news/Publi c .ht >m >Public Opinion > >A plan by supermarkets in New Zealand to distribute over a million copies >of a pamphlet about the genetic modification (GM) of food have been >criticized as an effort to distribute propaganda by safe food activists. >One of >the campaigners, Sue Kedgley from the Safe Food Campaign, commented, "I can >only hope consumers will see this leaflet for what it is - biased, >undisguised propaganda. It's as though they have declared war ... and the >first casualty has been truth." The pamphlet was produced by the New >Zealand Grocery Industry Council. The executive director of the Grocery >Marketers' Association, Brenda Cutress, commented that food manufacturers >wanted to ensure that people were better informed about genetically >engineered foods. >Ms Kedgley has criticised the pamphlet as she believes that it ignores the >environmental and health risks in the technology, and focuses instead on >possible future benefits. She refuted a claim in the pamphlet that GM foods >were among the most extensively tested foods sold. She claimed that it >overlooked the fact that GM foods had never undergone long-term testing to >see if they damaged the human immune system, caused cancer, or caused >allergies. She suggested that claims of nutritional advantages in GM foods >did not apply to any of the 52 GM foods currently available on the New >Zealand market. > >........ > >US GROUP HIRES EX-TRADE REP TO LOBBY ON BIOTECH July 20/99 >Reuters >By Doug Palmer >BOSTON - The board of directors of the U.S. Grains Council was cited as >taking action on Tuesday to battle growing international opposition to >genetically modified crops by hiring former U.S. Trade Representative Carla >Hills to lobby world leaders on their behalf. > >.......... > >Consumers mop up in milk war > >An amazing u-turn has repelled American hormone-treated milk Links, reports >and background on the food crisis > >George Monbiot >Thursday July 22, 1999 >The Guardian > >Slowly, very slowly, consumers are regaining control over the food chain. >The destruction of a farm-scale trial of genetically engineered rape by >protesters on Sunday could prove to be the final straw for the >biotechnology companies already wondering whether their products have a >future in this country. > >Just 10 miles from the trial site, Britain's newest farmers' market, >offering local, organic produce, opened for the first time a fortnight ago, >and sold out within two hours. > >But something else has happened, far more significant than either of these >events. Three weeks ago, the European Union routed an American attempt to >force us to accept one of the most unpleasant technologies food scientists >have ever devised. Its victory, a critically important blow for consumer >rights, was greeted with a deluge of absolutely no coverage at all. > >Bovine somatotropin (BST) is a growth hormone, manufactured by Monsanto. >Injected into dairy cows, it raises their milk yields by 10 to 15 per cent. >According to European scientists, it also increases udder infections, foot >diseases and reproductive disorders in the cows which receive it, and >boosts the level of insulin growth factor 1 in their milk. > >This chemical passes intact into the human bloodstream and is associated >with both breast and prostate cancers. Five years ago, the European Union >banned the use of the hormone here, and forbade imports of hormone-treated >milk from the United States. The US insisted that if the ban were not >lifted by the end of this year, it would ask the World Trade Organisation >(WTO) to force us to start drinking its poisoned milk. > >The United States had every expectation of success. It has already used the >WTO to impose punitive sanctions on the European Union for refusing to >compel us to eat hormone-treated beef, and insisting that we should not >have to buy all our bananas from the company which funds the Democratic >Party. > >America has found in our own scab state an indispensable ally: the British >government has consistently sought to undermine the European position on >beef hormones, in order to prove to Mr Clinton that it places the interests >of US corporations ahead of the health of its own citizens. > >The milk dispute threatened to become far bigger than the beef and banana >wars. The United States has already demonstrated that it will go to >extraordinary lengths to ensure that Monsanto gets what it wants. > >In 1989, a researcher employed by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) >commissioned tests to discover whether or not BST is safe. He was >immediately sacked for "slowing down the approval process", and the tests >were stopped. > >When the FDA discovered that Monsanto's own tests were grossly inadequate, >it established a new safety category, approving BST as a "manageable risk". >Last year, the FDA admitted that it had allowed the sale of the hormone >without having seen any safety data. It had relied instead on a summary >provided by Monsanto. > >Exposure of this kind of collusion has seldom prevented the United States >>from forcibly exporting its revolting habits. The World Trade Organisation >has to decide whether a country or a group of countries is excluding a >product for genuine health and safety reasons, or doing so merely in order >to protect its own manufacturers. > >It relies on the assessment of Codex Alimentarius, the United Nations food >standards agency. Codex is stuffed with corporate scientists and US >government officials. It has ruled in favour of American corporations even >when the evidence against their products is overwhelming. > >But three weeks ago, Codex did something almost unprecedented. It made a >decision on the basis of science, rather than politics. Safety concerns >about BST, it ruled, could not be ignored. The United States was forced to >drop its suit. > >The decision not to poison the 370m members of the European Union, though >ignored by every newspaper and broadcaster in Britain, could prove to be >one of the defining moments of the end of the 20th century. The credibility >of the coercive trade regime which has threatened the sovereignty of every >democratic state on earth has already been seriously challenged. > >Last year, the Multilateral Agreement on Investment, a crude attempt to >enable big business to overthrow national legislation, was defeated by >campaigners. This week, the World Trade Organisation failed to resolve the >furious internal dispute over its next director-general, and was forced to >appoint both leading candidates. > >Europe's victory sets the tone for a new round of trade talks, opening in >Seattle in November. They promise to be so contentious that they could >break the World Trade Organisation apart. I hope so. The WTO, established >to protect weak nations from the strong, has been reduced to an oppressive >instrument of American foreign policy. > >x © Copyright Guardian Media Group plc. 1999 > >....... > > > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jul 23 10:45:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26047 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07803; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07597 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:27:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00F70A3E@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:26:09 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 23 Jul 99 10:28:37 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 23 Jul 99 10:28:14 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:28:11 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF waldorf education [was community opportunity] Priority: normal In-reply-to: <001501bed462$90dae260$9f9dafc7@333> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <59B7C666B60@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1354 I just thought that those of you with the concerns expressed by Michael Roboz might be interested in the results of the informal survey I recently completed of my classmates (Sacramento Waldorf School, class of 85). The majority of those who graduated with us has gone on to get at least one advanced degree (many of the others I just can't verify), and of the one's I've been able to find, we have the following professions represented: 2 computer engineers, an architect and interior designer, a chief financial officer, a finance consultant on energy and infrastructure projects, a social worker, a medical doctor, an art therapist, a university researcher (me!), a fire fighter and med tech, a certified ski instructor and carpenter (with a degree in journalism), an advanced film student, a cello teacher and artist-in-residence and Fullbright Scholar, a radio show producer and pop star interviewer in Germany, a legislative advocate, a trained eurythmist, and a couple of Waldorf school teachers. And of course, I'm sure the one's I haven't been able to locate yet are just as diverse. And this doesn't even begin to tell you what sort of amazing and talented people these are, the places they've traveled, languages learned, people served, and adventures had. I couldn't tell you how typical my class is, but I can assure you that we have all flourished in the "outside world" and many of us have made it through plenty of university science classes. There are a few from the class who have gone deeper into anthroposophy and studied at the Rudolf Steiner College in Sacramento, CA, but that has not been the path of most of us. I worked next to the college for 9 months as an apprentice on the adjoining bd farm, and my feeling is that going deeper into anthroposophy does make it more challenging to find one's place in the "outside world." I'm not saying this is good or bad, just that it is. And personally, I am happy not to "go there," at least not now. There are certain, uh, the only word that comes to mind is in Spanish, "inquietudes" (difficult aspects?) that we as Waldorf students often carry with us around in the "outside world," however. We are often looking at things deeper at an earlier age, and asking questions earlier that can make "normal" things sometimes troubling. Personally, I have also often felt frustration at living in a world that always seeks to pigeon-hole me when I am such a Renaissance kind of person. All my classmates are equally as well rounded and with diverse interests and talents, though I don't know if they have felt the same frustrations. (On the other hand, who gets through life with out some difficulty and frustration?) Anyway, I think that an "Waldorf" university (assuming something like the schools which teache the usual subjects just in a particular way) could be an amazing thing. I have no idea if it would make people less suited for the "outside world" or whether it would help make the "outside world" more suitable for humansl. It's an interesting thing to ponder. Anita > My personal view is that we have to live in the "outside world". I don't > see why the Waldorf Science cannot be taught in lower school and in high > school closer to conventional view. Then, they , with a catch-up year, can > be able to choose carrers in engineering and the sciences, medical, etc. > Otherwise, 2 things will happen. Waldorf Schools only prepare students for > the Arts. If there is a Steiner University, then Waldorf Students can only > go on to the Steiner U. and then what.....? Only teach at Waldorf Schools?? > Only work at Wala, Weleda, Herdecke, etc.? > I feel that Waldorf educated people need to be part of the Greater > Society, not, hide themselves from it and isololate themselves. RS did say > that Waldorf and Anthr. should become part of the general culture. Training > kids only to go to a RS University and then only to become Waldorf Teachers > in NOT what I think he had in mind. > M. > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Nelson-Smith > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Thursday, July 22, 1999 8:41 AM > Subject: Re: OFF [community opportunity] > > > >Dear John - May I cheekily make a suggestion on which I'm in no way able > >to offer any practical help ? In a thread on this forum awhile back, I > >received a number of helpful postings when I enquired about Waldorf > >teaching; one of them commented that it could afford to ignore > >conventional views on (for example) the natural and physical sciences > >because these would be covered, if needed, when the students went on to > >further education. I don't know how much of a shock it is when a > >Waldorf graduate suddenly moves from a Steinerian view of things to the > >standard materialistic version, but wouldn't it be great to establish a > >Steiner-Waldorf _university_ ? Tony N-S. > > > > > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jul 23 14:03:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00818 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:03:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19972; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:46:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mda.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19886 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:45:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.196]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990723175023.OCMK956294.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 05:50:23 +1200 Message-ID: <3798AB55.7149@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 05:50:13 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: OZzie cultural delights Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1355 22 July 1999 OLYMPIC GAMES IN SYDNEY YEAR 2000 TOURIST WARNING! NORTHERN TERRITORY OF AUSTRALIA ANTI-SOCIAL DARWINISM ALERT! IF YOU NEVER NEVER KNOW, YOU MAY FOREVER EVER GO - STRAIGHT TO DARWIN'S JAIL. Tourists thinking of including a visit to Darwin as part of their Australian visit for the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games are advised to make themselves familiar with the draconian provisions mandatory sentencing Northern Territory legislation. See below for details of how to contact the Northern Territory Tourist Commission for more information about N.T. mandatory sentencing legislation. HOW ANTI-SOCIAL DARWINISM QUICKLY SPREADS These provisions remove the discretion of magistrates to provide alternates to jail sentences for the smallest of offenses against property, even for first offenders. * For example, if you take a can of drink valued at $2, you gain two weeks jail even if you were dying of thirst. Magistrates have no discretion even if it is your first offence. * Your second minor offence earns three months in jail, and can have taken place before your first offence so you have no way of knowing the penalty for your minor human weakness at the time. Three months in jail is a long time, bro. * And that towel in your bag with the Darwin motel's name on it has been proven to be worth a year in an anti-social Darwin jail before you get to Kakadu or Uluru. A year's jail for a towel! TOURISTS NOT IMMUNE Although these laws were not intended to target the visitors who underwrite much of the Northern Territory economy and urban lifestyle, as a visitor you could become accidentally caught up in this anti-social Darwinism experiment. Chief Minister Denis Burke says the mandatory sentencing regime is intended purely to show "community displeasure" at the actions of marginalised and disadvantaged community members - disadvantaged community members resulting from 25 years of his Country-Liberal Party's monopoly on government. "Go directly to jail!" is the CLP's simple minded message. BACKGROUND CONDITION - 25 BAD LAW YEARS Anti-social Darwinism has taken several festering forms in the N.T. during the last quarter century. Remember, these forms are not designed with you visitors in mind, but anti-social Darwinism insists on one law for all - rich and poor, black and white. Try to spot the oneness: * the infamous "2 Kilometre Law" - no drinking in a public place within two kilometres of an alcohol outlet. * jail sentences which apply for non-payment of fines under Darwin by-laws if you go to sleep in a public place in Darwin between sunset and sunrise. * mandatory jail sentencing for petty offenses against property. * new amendments will protect middle class children 15-16 years of age but not children ("repeat offenders") from chronically disadvantaged families. * despite recommendations in the Aboriginal Deaths in Custody report, which said jail should always be a last resort, the Country-Liberal Party insists that, in the name of one law for all, jail will the Territory's First Resort in all cases involving property. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jul 23 14:21:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01299 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:21:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21307; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21088 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:03:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (cust46.nrvmax1.tor1.netrover.com [205.209.21.46]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA08653 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:05:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: Re: OFF [community opportunity] Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:08:58 -0400 Message-ID: <01bed536$6fa6b860$2d15d1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1356 Guillermo, Andy: I should clarify that the posting re the community opportunity in Connecticut was lifted by me from the intentional community list. www.ic.org .The author, John Dixon, johnjanedixon@hotmail.com is probably not a BD NOW member, and would therefore not receive your astute commentary.[ however, if there are no objections, I would like to cc or forward some of these comments to him, in the hope of maintaining his laudable initiative]. However, I was pleasantly surprised to read from you, Guillermo, of the apparently capable interest from your area in anthrop-oriented community. Naturally, then, I am compelled to sound our horn from here in a kind of update: For those who have followed some previous posts, our project [Whole Village, king township, ontario, Canada] has just reached its declared max. of 30 members, but we have continued to accept more on a waiting list. For various reasons, some change their priorities, but continue to support the venture in spirit and sweat. While many participants are familiar with and active in Waldorf, Anthro-pursuits,exploring 3-fold societal, financial applications , and BD farming / gardening, we have not advertised this kind of exclusivity as requisite. [A waldorf school is 30 min from the farm] And, in fact, many have been attracted simply by the sum character of those present, and the hope of a manifest truly viable,sustainable, relevant lifestyle. Our somewhat outdated website is: www.wholevillage.org I hope to report progress on the results of our financial negotiations regarding this 290acre entity as it becomes a consensual collaboration. Regards, ........................manfred palmer -----Original Message----- From: Guillermo Romero To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, July 23, 1999 12:12 AM Subject: Re: OFF [community opportunity] > >>>Dear John - May I cheekily make a suggestion on which I'm in no way able >>>to offer any practical help ? In a thread on this forum awhile back, I >>>received a number of helpful postings when I enquired about Waldorf >>>teaching; one of them commented that it could afford to ignore >>>conventional views on (for example) the natural and physical sciences >>>because these would be covered, if needed, when the students went on to >>>further education. I don't know how much of a shock it is when a >>>Waldorf graduate suddenly moves from a Steinerian view of things to the >>>standard materialistic version, but wouldn't it be great to establish a >>>Steiner-Waldorf _university_ ? Tony N-S. >>> >>> > >Dear John and Tony: > >I was considering some time back to participate in the Ecovillage in Ithaca, EVI. > >That project started and keeps going on with little upfront resources and it is still alive. They started with a mortgage on a piece of land, if you have buildings there already, it is even easier because you can finance more of the project. > >I believe that intention is the source of reality, so if you really want to make it happen, just include the viable concept into your beliefs framework and do it. But do not forget to invite me. It would be a dream come true. > >I know two or three families from around here that would be willing to invest $ 20-30 M, to have a community where their children could attend a Waldorf S, eat BD food, learn and practice Anthroposophy, ....... the works. I am sure there should be no problem putting together more families for the right concept. > >Cheers > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jul 23 21:16:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA11469 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 21:16:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA16337; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:59:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA16231 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:57:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.59] ("port 2049"@[148.233.78.59]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FFC003Y6PJW4H@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:31:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:38:07 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: OFF [community opportunity] In-reply-to: <01bed536$6fa6b860$2d15d1cd@default> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1357 >Guillermo, Andy: > >I should clarify that the posting re the community opportunity in >Connecticut was lifted by me from the intentional community list. www.ic.org >.The author, John Dixon, johnjanedixon@hotmail.com is probably not a BD NOW >member, and would therefore not receive your astute commentary.[ however, if >there are no objections, I would like to cc or forward some of these >comments to him, in the hope of maintaining his laudable initiative]. Sure, no objection here. >However, I was pleasantly surprised to read from you, Guillermo, of the >apparently capable interest from your area in anthrop-oriented community. 2 or 3 families out of a country this big, it is not much. Actually Antroph.. is practicaly unknown in Mexico. There are only two Waldorf Schools in the whole country (Cuernavaca and Mex City) and there is no formal Antroph society. Some friends of mine are starting a Waldorf inspired KG in Guadalajara and are in the process of having people undergone trainning in Toronto as KG and grade teachers. That's all I know that is happening in the RS related arena. Here in Colima a friend of mine tried to established a WS but he failed due to the local pre-judgements against anything non catholic. Some people here even exhibit the argument of RS ideology been assoc with the Nazis. >Naturally, then, I am compelled to sound our horn from here in a kind of >update: >For those who have followed some previous posts, our project [Whole Village, >king township, ontario, Canada] has just reached its declared max. of 30 >members, but we have continued to accept more on a waiting list. For various >reasons, some change their priorities, but continue to support the venture >in spirit and sweat. >While many participants are familiar with and active in Waldorf, >Anthro-pursuits,exploring 3-fold societal, financial applications , and BD >farming / gardening, >we have not advertised this kind of exclusivity as requisite. [A waldorf >school is 30 min from the farm] >And, in fact, many have been attracted simply by the sum character of those >present, and the hope of a manifest truly viable,sustainable, relevant >lifestyle. >Our somewhat outdated website is: www.wholevillage.org I will check it out, thanks >I hope to report progress on the results of our financial negotiations >regarding this 290acre entity as it becomes a consensual collaboration. >Regards, ........................manfred palmer Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jul 23 21:18:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA11485 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 21:18:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16381; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 21:00:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA16235 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:57:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.59] ("port 2051"@[148.233.78.59]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FFC00FBKPXH0B@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:39:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:46:39 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: OFF [community opportunity] To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id UAA16238 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1358 >Guillermo, > >That type of community would be very inviting. Are you saying one is >developing in Mexico. No; but I wish. > >$20-30 M, uh does M mean million and $ mean US $, just pondering. $ = USD, M means thousand, MM means million >I would >think a community could get easily established yesterday with that backing >but then of course you need the body and souls of others, which seems to be >the more challenging aspects of communities today. IMHO, the relative lack of success and failure stories of intentional communities are associated with a TOO radical departure from standard community organization and with TOO little concern for building a solid finacial foundation. One could argue that the basic proposal for such communities is to departure from non satisfactory actual conditions and therefore the need for radical changes. IMO, most of us living under semi-standard, need a transitional period, so that an intentional community, more integrated to the whole economy and less radical in its internal organization, could be more viable socially and commercialy >Guillermo, I think I asked you before what part of Mx you are in, but I >have no recall of the answer. So what part of Mx are you in?? Colima, Mid pacific region of Mexico > >Are you familiar with the organic farm in Cabo San Lucas, we are getting >products from them in our local Whole Fds in Houston, Tx. I know who they are, but have no relationship >Cheers, > >Andy > Greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jul 24 08:18:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA18500 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 08:18:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04748; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 08:02:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA04586 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:59:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp66.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.166]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id GAA08893 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 06:57:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <005301bed5cb$d592d600$a64b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: Subject: Al Kapular on Thyme Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 06:58:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1359 Dear Friends, Remembering Al Kapular was a sort of "guest" speaker here not very long ago, I thought some of you might be interested in an article he wrote on Thyme recently. Here's the link: http://st4.yahoo.com/seedsofchange/thymeforhealth.html Love Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jul 24 11:26:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20883 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:26:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09837; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:11:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09789 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:10:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.16.165]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sat, 24 Jul 1999 16:12:20 +0100 Message-ID: <3799D890.32A4@cwcom.net> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 16:15:28 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: How to repel mosquitoes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1360 Is there a helpful homeopath out there ? I was very interested in the Bodles' recent posting about the NZ lady who kept her barbecue guests free of mosquitoes by lacing their drinks with a drop of D6 mosquito nosode in vodka, because we are now at the height of the summer flea season and we planned to spray our dogs with a flea nosode, made after the method for aphids detailed by Eileen Naumann on the Medicine Garden website: http://medicinegarden.com/Homeopathy/How_to_make_a_remedy_1.html (goes on to _8). This is a 5X remedy. I now wonder whether it would be more effective (or, conversely, might harm the dogs) if they had a drop of the remedy (which we, too, will make using 40% vodka) on a biscuit at regular intervals. I realise that this is homeopathy, not biodynamics; but is there nevertheless a preferred astrological configuration for making the mother tincture from the fleas (which, of course, we have been collecting over a longish period) ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 25 12:29:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09825 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:29:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25776; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:13:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA25609 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip034.computer.net [140.186.252.34]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA14239 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:12:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:12:54 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: July 25, 1999 - July 31, 1999 Message-ID: <60D3B3ADFF4B86B4852567B90058D068.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA25611 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1361 Calendar of the Soul [July 25, 1999 - July 31, 1999] Seventeenth Week (July 28-August 3) Thus speaks the cosmic Word That I by grace through senses' portals Have led into my innermost soul: Imbue your spirit depths With my wide world horizons To find in future time myself in you. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Es spricht das Weltenwort, Das ich durch Sinnestore In Seelengründe durfte führen: Erfülle deine Geistestiefen Mit meinen Weltenweiten, Zu finden einstens mich in dir. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+17 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 25 19:23:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA15700 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12961; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:08:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mda.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12864 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:07:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz ([202.50.81.131]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990725231131.CUXO956294.mta2-rme@nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz> for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:11:31 +1200 Received: by NT_SVR1 with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:00:37 +1200 Message-ID: <6120A29E7C51D0119E9700805F4C5E8D12522B@NT_SVR1> From: Lynne Sheridan To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org.'" Subject: Question Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:00:35 +1200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1362 I have been informed that the planet as we know it (earth) presently is changing its axis and that this has been recorded over the last few years. My question is ; How will this impact on the biodynamic principals? or is the issues of the axis humbug? Is it the Ozone hole that is the cause of the earth warming?or both? Catch you later Regards Lynne From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 25 20:25:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA16273 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:25:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15744; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:10:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.gte.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15597 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:06:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vaio (1Cust59.tnt13.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.36.59]) by smtp1.gte.net with SMTP for ; id TAA14509 Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:08:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "Richard Lewis" To: Subject: RE: Question Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 17:10:05 -0700 Message-ID: <000101bed6fb$36fc6ac0$3b242599@vaio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <6120A29E7C51D0119E9700805F4C5E8D12522B@NT_SVR1> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1363 It is my understanding that biodynamics incorporate an understanding that everything is in a constant state of change; Knowledge is dependent upon individual perspective. We are always adapting to new planetary location within the universe, externally or internally created. Luckily this beautiful planet gives us time to adapt even with the accelerated progresses of our current location in time. We just need to watch more carefully ever day to monitor the signs we are given that enable us to adapt. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org [mailto:owner-bdnow@envirolink.org]On > Behalf Of Lynne Sheridan > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 1999 4:01 PM > To: 'bdnow@envirolink.org.' > Subject: Question > > > I have been informed that the planet as we know it (earth) presently is > changing its axis and that this has been recorded over the last few > years. > > My question is ; > How will this impact on the biodynamic principals? or is the issues of > the axis humbug? > Is it the Ozone hole that is the cause of the earth warming?or both? > Catch you later > Regards Lynne > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jul 25 23:35:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA18604 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:35:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA23235; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:19:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23130 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:16:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.49] (pm3shep1-163-49.intrepid.net [209.190.163.49]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00789 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:18:20 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:12:14 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: AGNIHOTRA: Solar Eclipse and new moon Aug. 11 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1364 >From: "Richard & Lisa Powers" >To: >Subject: Solar Eclipse and new moon Aug. 11 >Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 16:42:47 -0400 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 > >There will be a solar eclipse on new moon day. The exact time of the Solar >Eclipse is Aug. 11, 10:12 am to 12:27 pm GMT. >It would be beneficial to perform several hours of Yajnya on that day, as >the energy of eclipse is especially negative. 24 hour fires would be best, >with more Yajnya through Sept. 6. Anyone in the Madison VA area wishing to >join us for Yajnya that day please let us know. >In His service >Richard >**************************************************************************** >** >* Richard & Lisa Powers >* Visit our website at: http://www.summit.net/home/Agnihotra/ >* Mail: Copperworks, Rt 8 Box 365, Madison VA 22727 >* Ph. 540-948-5463 >* Fax: 540-948-5214 >**************************************************************************** >** > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 26 01:08:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA19366 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 01:08:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA00333; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 00:51:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA00205 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 00:48:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.116] ("port 2052"@[148.233.78.116]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FFG00M1UQIZLR@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:42:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:06:10 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: OFF Re: AGNIHOTRA: Solar Eclipse and new moon Aug. 11 In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1365 >>There will be a solar eclipse on new moon day. The exact time of the Solar >>Eclipse is Aug. 11, 10:12 am to 12:27 pm GMT. >>It would be beneficial to perform several hours of Yajnya on that day, as >>the energy of eclipse is especially negative. 24 hour fires would be best, >>with more Yajnya through Sept. 6. Anyone in the Madison VA area wishing to >>join us for Yajnya that day please let us know. >>In His service >>Richard >>**************************************************************************** >>** >>* Richard & Lisa Powers >>* Visit our website at: http://www.summit.net/home/Agnihotra/ >>* Mail: Copperworks, Rt 8 Box 365, Madison VA 22727 >>* Ph. 540-948-5463 >>* Fax: 540-948-5214 >>**************************************************************************** >>** Hi: Can you please explain "the energy of eclipse is especially negative". I've hearing that a "Grand Cross" with the four fixed constellations (aquarious, taurus, leo, and scorpio) will form on that day. Could someone well versed in astrology comments on this ? (how about you GA ?) Cheers Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 26 02:38:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA20345 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 02:38:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA02974; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 02:22:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mda.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA02844 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 02:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.109.152]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990726061802.IOJH957005.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:18:02 +1200 Message-ID: <379BFD60.5AAC@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:17:04 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Solar eclipse Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1366 > Hi: > > Can you please explain "the energy of eclipse is especially negative". > > I've hearing that a "Grand Cross" with the four fixed constellations (aquarious, taurus, > leo, and scorpio) will form on that day. Could someone well versed in astrology comments > on this ? (how about you GA ?) Below is something I wrote some months ago. It contains something about the eclipses. Looking at things at present we have had a couple of weeks of the Jupiter Neptune and the sharemarket did not go for a sudden jump up as predicted, even though all the fundamentals were just right for it. So the Saturn Uranus square would appear to be strong, hence we need to look at rebellion. There is a little around, however with the USA using astrologers so well these days you might note they are becoming very quiet and supportive of peace everywhere. So I do not see any major global revolutions, however keep an eye on consumer rebellion against GE and the corporatisation of life. This I see as gaining momenteum and probably the biggest rebellion against the powers that be we have seen for some time. Interestingly Nostradaous prediction about a fireball over New York may well have been the death of JFK jr?????? World wars, global shifts and the like I feel are a little over done. Overall I see it as a time for people to get on with what they believe is important to themselves. A very liberating period of self decision and committment to each of our individual destiny. Afterall the north node is where the Sun and Moon are sitting allowing each of us to personalise the need for determined action to overcome the limits of our life and get on with IT. An Astrology Overview for August 1999 Written - June 1 1999 We are in the midst of the most prophesied period of modern history. For many centuries, August of 1999 has been seen as the time for Armageddon or alternatively, as a flash point for a radical change leading to the dawn of the Golden Age. Obviously a time of varying potential. The date which is the focus of so much attention is the Solar eclipse on the 11th of August. So what is this Astrological monster that portends such diverse outcomes? In a nutshell, an intensification of two big influences outlined last month. One is based on the idealistic Jupiter and Neptune (The Golden Age), while the second is based on the rebellious Saturn and Uranus (Armageddon). In August, 8 of the 10 planets are in difficult relationships to one another, with only small periods of positive relief offered by the other two. In addition , these planets are all in signs that are considered fixed in nature. This translates to strong determination that supports a visionary, come religious zeal, fuelled by impatience to overcome unbearable limitations. Personally, these stresses can easily be used in a beneficial manner. August provides the necessary drive to implement life saving decisions about where you want to go and how you want to get there. Naturally no is not an option. All that remains to be seen is just how gracefully you can achieve these objectives. Small windows of opportunity for reasonable negotiation and communication on the 5th, 9th, 17th, 18th and the 26th - 29th. Overall though until the 12th frustration’s build with an intense time to implement decisions developing in earnest from the 19th. A fine balance of personal conviction, honesty and a compassionate concern for all affected by your choices, must be sought and achieved if this dynamic period is to be used to its best. The real trick of this time arises when 5 billion people need to overcome their most basic selfish survival urges and take steps for collective growth, that it becomes inevitable some dangerous cracks appear. The saving grace of this period is likely to be the Solar eclipse itself. I have observed that lunar eclipses such as occurred on the 29th of July, increase tensions, which then dramatically release after the Solar eclipse, two weeks later. So, positive resolutions or at least an easing are possible during this period, after reaching a dangerous culmination in late July. It is easy to see how the international tensions present through the middle of this year easily develop into more dire situations. History is littered with the results of groups of intractable fanatics lining up against each other. This Saturn Uranus relationship is the first crisis in a cycle which began in 1987. The developments of that time are bought forward for review. In New Zealand 1987 heralded the beginning of our great economic rationalism and free market economy. We can expect to have its shortcomings thrust in our faces in the realities of the trickle up effect, reduced services, an unpayable debt which indicate a worsening of the real conditions of the average citizen. In 1987 the primary patents upon which genetic engineering has been built were granted, so we can expect more reality checks of their actual impact. With Taurus so prominent, scary environmental impacts will be appearing. A mimic of the 1987 sharemarket crash is possible, however unlikely to turn into the much anticipated ‘big one’, just yet. The reality of these events acts to enhance and glorify the rebel, in each of us, and a worship of rebels through the ages. Positive elements show in continued success with technological breakthroughs and creative solutions individuals have found to increased global competition. Just as we face up to our own restrictions and perceived persecutors during August, so we are collectively challenged to face global structures of inequality and abuse in favour of racial, religious and national integrity. This is a big ask given our track record. The ‘‘greed is good’’ and ‘‘he who dies with the most toys wins’’ philosophies of economic materialism have to be addressed with extreme honesty if the passions of the underclasses and third world are to be defused. Can we do it? Do we appreciate our lives and unique planet enough to ensure they continue gracefully into the future? A strong Aquarius emphasis now, suggests big events are the result of individual choices and small personal actions can effect global thoughts and deeds. This is the age thinking globally and acting locally and consumers’ power to vote with their dollars, talkback radio, internet submissions, fax machines and ultimately the next election, ensure that individuals do impact on our collective well being. The draconian totalitarian (Leo) futures of science fiction are only possible if the individuals collectively allow it. This is all very strong. This period has not been the focus of a millennium of attention for no reason. As it turns out, we are this seasons people and if we blow it , its blown. If we choose change, its changed. Dynamic times, and who would want to miss them? for what it is worth Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 26 11:10:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26056 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20608; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:55:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mda.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20361 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:52:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.81.143]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990726145716.LNRA956294.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 02:57:16 +1200 Message-ID: <379C7743.3D2@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 02:57:07 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Bio systems conference proceedings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1367 Integrated Bio-Systems in Zero Emissions Applications Proceedings of the Internet Conference on Integrated Bio-Systems can be viewed at http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/papp.htm GA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 26 16:45:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA04382 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:45:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA19830; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19744 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:28:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00F889CC@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:27:44 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 26 Jul 99 16:30:14 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 26 Jul 99 16:30:06 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:29:59 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Al Kapular on Thyme Priority: normal In-reply-to: <005301bed5cb$d592d600$a64b2e9c@oemcomputer> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <5E987263C0A@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1368 > Dear Friends, > > Remembering Al Kapular was a sort of "guest" speaker here not very long ago, > I thought some of you might be interested in an article he wrote on Thyme > recently. > > Here's the link: > > http://st4.yahoo.com/seedsofchange/thymeforhealth.html > > Love Julie Thank you for this article. I really enjoyed it. The "Spanish Thyme" ear ache remedy he mentions at the end is one that i have personal experience with, and can say that it was most satisfying. Only the plant that was used was refered to as "oregano" and smells like oregano, but is of a thick, juicy variety fittting exactly the same description that Kapular gives. I think it must be the same plant. The process was the same. This is a rememdy my husband, from the Dominican Republic taught me. Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jul 26 20:23:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA10229 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA01282; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:00:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01187 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:58:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.135.109] (pm3bky1-135-109.intrepid.net [209.190.135.109]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA23253; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:00:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199907270000.UAA23253@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: Re: OFF Re: AGNIHOTRA: Solar Eclipse and new moon Aug. 11 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 99 19:07:45 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id TAA01192 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1369 Folks Here's my article on the Grand Fixed Cross from the current issue of Welcome to planet Earth magazine. Jeanne Mozier THE SUMMER FROM HELL Jeanne Mozier In the rarified world of astrology as the vocabulary of the Divine Plan for human evolution, it is nearly impossible to pinpoint dramatic shifts to the day, week, month, year, decade or even century. Yet here, in the opening months of the unprecedented time of Pluto in Sagittarius, Neptune and Uranus in Aquarius, the old patterns are gone. It seems probable that this final summer of the millennium marks a key initiation and the birth of global human. Pack wisely for the summer from Hell. Vacation tickets in Œ99 are non-refundable. The astrological picture of this summer is dominated by one central fact. Not the often called ³eclipse of the century² but the Grand Fixed Cross of the which the eclipse -- or actually both summer eclipses -- are focal points. Before marking the calendar of July and August with daily details of flames and black holes, let¹s address the underlying meaning. It makes the terror easier to bear to know that this is not Armageddon, but rather a difficult birth passage. We also need to understand that the Fixed Cross appears because we invoke it. This crisis of reorientation is what all those on the path of light have long sought, teaching us the truth of ³watch what you ask for.² According to the blueprint outlined in Alice Bailey¹s ³Esoteric Astrology,² the mysteries of the Fixed Cross that we begin to explore in early July are the essential initiation for humanity when man steps off the ordinary path of evolution and begins the life of the soul. It is an experience of pain and suffering where humanity is crucified on the cross of matter. The crisis is filled with images of being torn by the Bull, taming the Lion and being brought to his knees by the Serpent before the stream of life cleanses the muck and reveals the glowing path of the soul. The zodiacal energies involved in this aspect of ultimate cosmic tension are, by definition, the four fixed signs: Taurus, Leo, Scorpio and Aquarius. Taurus and Scorpio bring us to illumination through the conflict of greed and anger. Leo introduces both the danger and help of will while Aquarius targets concrete science as a player. By the time the cross is exact, in mid-August, every planet in our astrological heaven is in one of the these four except for Pluto which at 8 Sagittarius, is within allowable orb. The power is unavoidable. The good news is that the appearance of the Fixed Cross as the dominant configuration of Œ99 means that the soul is becoming more active. I mark the beginning of the summer from hell with the entry of Mars into Scorpio on July 4, a mythically charged day for the United States. For most of the next two months, the planets move inexorably into the ever tightening Grand Fixed Cross. On the 7th, the galactic environment makes it possible to unearth the underlying meanings and mysteries as described above. Confusion reigns for at least half the summer as the second retrograde Mercury period of the year begins on July 12 along with the Cancer New Moon. Travel plans will most certainly suffer as sensitive souls are scurrying to spend the time of reorientation in safe places connected to their tribes. The key to survival is centering yourself in your human connections. On July 14, Mars makes its third square of the year to Neptune and the madness begins in earnest continuing through the end of August. This demoralizing aspect refers back to the previous two squares at the end of January and late April. It is the first of the major aspects of the Fixed Cross to move into place. Not only are Scorpio and Aquarius involved but so too is Leo through the placement of the moon. Three days later we experience the second major aspect of the cross and the first of three Saturn squares to Uranus over the next 18 months. Duck for cover! The effects of this aspect -- whether global or personal -- are extreme tension, revolution, radical action, breaking out of limiting patterns. Expect major upheavals in Russia, South America and Afghanistan and any difficult relationships or work situations. The Saturn/Uranus conjunction in 1988 that is meeting its first challenge with this square was a seminal one reshaping both the map and the psyche of our world. Coming on the heels of the Mars/Neptune aspect, we can expect that lies coming home to roost will destroy existing situations. Two days during the hellish summer offer a thin ray of hope. Grace under pressure is the gift of July 18 and August 5. Take advantage of the brief moments of relief to indulge yourself and tune into the soothing energy. You¹ll need the rejuvenation. By the 21st, the horror show returns to the screen and we meet the third defining square, this time Jupiter to Neptune. The reality check of Saturn in Taurus is supplemented with Jupiter, and spiritual delusions and false optimism are the grave danger. The world will meet someone with an answer (to Y2K perhaps) that will prove to be one more big lie. Anger, conflict and accidents are the pattern of the day. By the 26th, Mercury, Neptune, Jupiter and the Sun are involved in a T-square pattern as the Fixed Cross gets tighter. Arrogance about big ideas and total disregard for details and facts promise confusion and disruption. The ever-tightening Grand Fixed Cross receives an enormous inflow of reorienting energy with the beginning of the eclipse cycle on the 28th. Both Uranus and Neptune are involved in this Leo/Aquarius lunar eclipse. System breakdowns are expected to be the hallmark of this entire period. On August 5, Mercury stations at 29 degrees Cancer and begins to move forward. This degree was highly sensitized in 1997 and Œ98 by the ³end of old time² and encodes the period to gather and secure all that you want to take with you into the next millennium. More pieces of the Grand Fixed Cross move into place on the 7th making it a harsh and explosive day, impulsive, rebellious and belligerent. Energy is very high. Old stuff is disappearing in nanoseconds. The scale of the Fixed Cross indicates that much of the effect will be global. While war is possible, it seems more likely that the events will be in an economic/technological arena. Whatever the scenarios, they will be shocking. Examining the eclipse of the 11th, we can expect a revolution and explosive reaction to limitation in some part of the world. Tracking the long path of the eclipse, we can nominate as prime candidates both the Balkans and India/Pakistan where a nuclear exchange is a horrifying possibility. Individuals should examine where the highlighted 18th degree occurs in their personal star patterns, although the mid-degrees of all fixed signs are at risk. And remember, the effects of this eclipse could last as long as a year. The players in this Grand Fixed Cross almost guarantee that lies will be told about whatever crises are occurring. Confusion reigns supreme although high level insight is possible. Schedule your dramatic end-of-the-world party on the 15th when Venus enters Leo bringing dressy attire to the Grand Fixed Cross. And don¹t put the party hats away until the 20th when the dust clears and the celebration can resume. With the moon¹s entry into Scorpio on the 18th, ALL the planets are involved in the Grand Fixed Cross. Only Pluto is in a non-fixed sign; however, it is only 8 degrees away and more importantly, it stations and moves direct today making it intensely powerful. The explosive power plays of this day cannot be overstated. With Mercury trining Pluto today, the thoughts are profound and addressed to the deepest meaning and mysteries of life. ³Why is this happening?² will be the question of the time. Thanks to the esoteric revelations of the Fixed Cross and the intuitive energies of the time, we have important clues. We know this is the cross of light and the effect is liberation. The fires of God are said to emanate from the Fixed Cross and we can expect this to be a literal impact of the aspect as its reflects on Earth. Only when the influence of all the four arms of the cross has produced an effect is a transition of consciousness made. Although there was a brief preview of the Fixed Cross effect on April 22 and 23, there is no averting this crisis by anticipating the effect. Some steps can only be taken in real time. The short answer: this is the point of crisis in the initiation of the Fixed Cross. The soul is breaking out. By the 24th when Jupiter stations and moves retrograde in Taurus, the aftershocks begin. We have survived but there will undoubtedly be big bills to pay. Sexual tension, miscommunication and pessimism round out a rather unpleasant day. After a few calming and peaceful days, the financial and earth-related aftershocks are notched up again when Saturn stations and moves retrograde in Taurus on the 29th. Air out the fear of the past month but be prepared for great conflicts probably between those who see technology as cause of all the recent troubles and those who think it holds the answer. This is a day of profound reality checks. The essence of the Fixed Cross is to exhaust material desire and remove the needs of the physical nature as dominant for humanity. This sounds good in the abstract but remember that it may take significant horror and destruction to reorient humanity from its obsessions with the material world. As September begins and the summer becomes a bad dream, we find positive and creative energy flooding human consciousness throughout the rest of the year. The Divine Plan begins to take form. Only in mid-month do we face an urgent reminder that we have passed through the crucifixion of the Fixed Cross and that systemic awareness has been introduced. The dark clouds roll out of the way by Fall Equinox when Heaven and Earth are in balance. What is revealed by the dominant Aquariun arm of the cross as we slide into the new Millennium is the beauty of group life, the job description of man as world server, and a vision of the Endless Way. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 27 04:34:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA18012 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 04:34:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA23405; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 04:19:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net (sys32.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.32]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA23308 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 04:17:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.211.141.132] (wt-d6-158.wt.net [208.211.141.158]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA25987 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 03:29:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: lamu@pop3.wt.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 03:32:26 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Andy Richker Subject: URGENT : need dates on your B-D conference in WV Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1370 Alan, Real quick. I need to know the dates to your B-D conference in Oct. I have a special on a ticket into Baltimore/Washington. Thanks, didn't I see it posted on your web site?? Andy From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 27 08:10:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org ([208.195.208.7] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA21096 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:10:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA28650; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:50:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA28435 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:46:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.167] (max1-14.stc.net [208.210.131.14]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA18641 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:48:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:54:52 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: URGENT : need dates on your B-D conference in WV Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1371 >Alan, > >Real quick. I need to know the dates to your B-D conference in Oct. > >I have a special on a ticket into Baltimore/Washington. > >Thanks, > >didn't I see it posted on your web site?? > >Andy Dear Andy, Inappropos, but the dates for my conference will be September 3, 4, and 5. I'll be at Allan's conference, however. So will Lorraine "Rainey" Cahill, who will talk about breaking droughts. Best, Hugh ***** Learning? What a puzzle? It's not memory nor repitition. All I've learned took no time, But the living up to it's been my whole life. And I don't teach, though my efforts may lead to learning. Sadly, what I know doesn't transfer, it dies with me. If I skillfully indicate, some things pass and live anew. But learning is up to them/us. Whoever they/we are. There's no teachers. Nothing's taught nor can be. But there are learners--which is why When students are ready teachers arise, amazingly, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 27 12:48:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26186 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:48:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11622; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11450 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.17] (pm3shep1-163-33.intrepid.net [209.190.163.33]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA15411 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:05:55 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:02:55 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Mid-Atlantic BD Conference (Pre-lim Announcement) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1372 "The Conference that combines "Secrets of the Soil" with "Growing for Market" - exploring the wonders of the Universe while helping you make a Better Living while Living Better!" The 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference "Traditional Nutrition and Restorative Farming" October 1-3, 1999 * Charles Town, WV U.S.A. A Few of the Scheduled Speakers and Workshop Leaders HUGH LOVEL America's foremost biodynamic teacher, author of A Biodynamic Farm for Growing Healthy Vegetables and America's leading practitioner of Cosmiculture, speaking on the incredible powers of Rudolf Steiner's newly rediscovered horn clay. HUGH COURTNEY, director of The Josephine Porter Institute of Applied Biodynamics, giving a workshop on how to use biodynamic preparations to promote soil vitality and plant health. He will also make the famous JPI book and biodynamic supplies table available throughout the conference. SALLY FALLON, editor of the Price-Pottenger Newsletter and author of Nourishing Traditions, a remarkable study of traditional nutrition that exposes how a few modern 'conveniences' have affected the vitality and longevity of Americans and what we can do to reverse this effect. JOEL SALATIN, author of You Can Farm!, Pastured Poultry Profits and Salad Bar Beef and master relationship marketer. Joel will be available for a full day walking the Claymont pastures, looking close up at rotational grazing and pastured poultry JOEY KORN, author and one of the world's foremost dowsers, conducting several workshops throughout the conference, hoping to keep good on his promise that he can teach anyone to dowse! (He's also offering a post-conference workshop this year!) DAN CARLSON, inventor of Sonic Bloom, will demonstrate his patented shortcuts to creating high value, high brix m high yield food crops EUGENE CANALES, founder of Ferarri Tractor CIE and an expert on appropriate technology for farming, will present a workshop on small scale grain production - from seed to table! JERRY BRUNETTI, founder of Agri-Dynamics and host of his own national ag radio program, will speak how his discovery of the loss of nutritional density in pasture grass and its effect on human health lead to his insights into human malnutrition - even at the highest socio-economic levels! STEVE DIVER, author of many of those great information booklets from ATTRA. Steve spends his free time trouring organic farms. He will present a slide show entitled "Organic Farms I have Known,' as well as workshops soils and how they must be physically balanced before dynamics will be effective. CAROLE MOORE, Wilson College Center for Sustainable Living, will conduct a workshop on the why and hows of Community Supported Agriculture STEVE MOORE, director of the Wilson College Center for Sustainable Living and a national proponent of CSA, sharing the wealth of knowledge he has acquired managing an incredibly productive 4 season passive solar greenhouse VINNIE McKINNEY, Elixir Farm Botanicals and recently featured in the Seeds of Change catalog, doing a workshop on working with seeds and another and growing herbs for market JIM FOLTZ, Peace in the Valley Farm, making medicinal herbal preparations that heal - and pay! JIM JENSEN, founder of The Biodynamic Honeybee Symposium, conducting beekeeping worshops that seek to promote the vitality of your bees while helping you to produce truly toxin-free honey. More workshops on nutrition, the revolutionary kaolin clay sprays, IPM, and using beneficials to help in post harvest storage Organic/biodynamic meals (included in conference fee) prepared on-site by Chef Collaborative 2000 chef Peter Behrley of Angelica Kitchen, New York City's Premier Whole Foods Restaurant (this year grass-fed beef is an option!). FREE! On-site camping and sleeping areas! CONFERENCE FEE of $165 ($200 after 9/15) includes all meals and camping. Limited on-site semi-private rooms avail. at reasonable rates, (several motels are also available in the Charles Town/Harpers Ferry area.) The conference is 90mi from Washington DC and 30 min. from Dulles Airport. Please Note: Because this conference is self-funding (with the exception of a grant from the Biodynamic Association to offset part of the direct mailing expenses), early payment of your admission fees helps us greatly! (If you are interested in making a tax deductable contribution to assist in the presentation of this conference in this or other years, please contact us.) To make reservations: Call (304) 876-2373 or email csa@claymont.org Late breaking information at our web page: http://www.igg.com/bdnow The Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Conference Post Office Box 3047, Shepherdstown, WV 25443 (304) 876-2373 or (304) 724-6763. FAX: (815) 550-6067 WORKSTUDY and INTERNSHIP programs for both the 1999 BD Conference and the Claymont Farm Biodynamic CSA are available. Please contact Allan ASAP at the above addresses. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jul 27 18:05:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA06020 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:05:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA10139; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:49:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09849 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:45:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts1-10.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.199.11]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA09003; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001801bed879$90cdc740$0bc76cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: Cc: "Greg Willis" References: Subject: Re: Mid-Atlantic BD Conference (Pre-lim Announcement) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:46:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1373 Allan: Congrats on a very impressive-sounding conference. A slight clarification is in order, I believe. Credit for the "rediscovery" and development of Horn Clay , must go to Greg Willis, as I'm sure Hugh Lovel will be the first to acknowledge. Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 9:02 AM Subject: Mid-Atlantic BD Conference (Pre-lim Announcement) > Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference. Please do me a > favor and look it over in your spare time and let me know - on BD Now! or > in private - if it communicates to you! (Yes, point out typos by all > means!!) I'm very impressed with the strong interest that has already been > expressed for this years conference. I have to tell you, in all honesty > (and from my own experience), the biodynamic conferences at Claymont Court > are events that you will never forget. Hope to see you there...er....HERE! > :-) -Allan> > > "The Conference that combines "Secrets of the Soil" with "Growing for > Market" - exploring the wonders of the Universe while helping you make > a Better Living while Living Better!" > > The 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference > "Traditional Nutrition and Restorative Farming" > October 1-3, 1999 * Charles Town, WV U.S.A. > > A Few of the Scheduled Speakers and Workshop Leaders > HUGH LOVEL America's foremost biodynamic teacher, author of A > Biodynamic Farm for Growing Healthy Vegetables and America's leading > practitioner of Cosmiculture, speaking on the incredible powers of > Rudolf Steiner's newly rediscovered horn clay. > HUGH COURTNEY, director of The Josephine Porter Institute of Applied > Biodynamics, giving a workshop on how to use biodynamic preparations > to promote soil vitality and plant health. He will also make the > famous JPI book and biodynamic supplies table available throughout the > conference. > SALLY FALLON, editor of the Price-Pottenger Newsletter and author of > Nourishing Traditions, a remarkable study of traditional nutrition > that exposes how a few modern 'conveniences' have affected the > vitality and longevity of Americans and what we can do to reverse this > effect. > JOEL SALATIN, author of You Can Farm!, Pastured Poultry Profits and > Salad Bar Beef and master relationship marketer. Joel will be > available for a full day walking the Claymont pastures, looking close > up at rotational grazing and pastured poultry > JOEY KORN, author and one of the world's foremost dowsers, conducting > several workshops throughout the conference, hoping to keep good on > his promise that he can teach anyone to dowse! (He's also offering a > post-conference workshop this year!) > DAN CARLSON, inventor of Sonic Bloom, will demonstrate his patented > shortcuts to creating high value, high brix m high yield food crops > EUGENE CANALES, founder of Ferarri Tractor CIE and an expert on > appropriate technology for farming, will present a workshop on small > scale grain production - from seed to table! > JERRY BRUNETTI, founder of Agri-Dynamics and host of his own national > ag radio program, will speak how his discovery of the loss of > nutritional density in pasture grass and its effect on human health > lead to his insights into human malnutrition - even at the highest > socio-economic levels! > STEVE DIVER, author of many of those great information booklets from > ATTRA. Steve spends his free time trouring organic farms. He will > present a slide show entitled "Organic Farms I have Known,' as well as > workshops soils and how they must be physically balanced before > dynamics will be effective. > CAROLE MOORE, Wilson College Center for Sustainable Living, will conduct > a workshop on the why and hows of Community Supported Agriculture > STEVE MOORE, director of the Wilson College Center for Sustainable > Living and a national proponent of CSA, sharing the wealth of knowledge > he has acquired managing an incredibly productive 4 season passive > solar > greenhouse > VINNIE McKINNEY, Elixir Farm Botanicals and recently featured in the > Seeds of Change catalog, doing a workshop on working with seeds and > another and growing herbs for market > JIM FOLTZ, Peace in the Valley Farm, making medicinal herbal > preparations that heal - and pay! > JIM JENSEN, founder of The Biodynamic Honeybee Symposium, conducting > beekeeping worshops that seek to promote the vitality of your bees > while helping you to produce truly toxin-free honey. > More workshops on nutrition, the revolutionary kaolin clay sprays, > IPM, and using beneficials to help in post harvest storage > > Organic/biodynamic meals (included in conference fee) prepared on-site > by Chef Collaborative 2000 chef Peter Behrley of Angelica Kitchen, > New York City's Premier Whole Foods Restaurant (this year grass-fed > beef is an option!). > > FREE! On-site camping and sleeping areas! > > CONFERENCE FEE of $165 ($200 after 9/15) includes all meals and > camping. Limited on-site semi-private rooms avail. at reasonable > rates, (several motels are also available in the Charles Town/Harpers > Ferry area.) The conference is 90mi from Washington DC and 30 min. > from Dulles Airport. > > Please Note: Because this conference is self-funding (with the exception > of a grant from the Biodynamic Association to offset part of the direct mailing > expenses), early payment of your admission fees helps us greatly! (If you > are interested in making a tax deductable contribution to assist in the > presentation of this conference in this or other years, please contact us.) > > To make reservations: Call (304) 876-2373 or email csa@claymont.org > Late breaking information at our web page: > http://www.igg.com/bdnow > > The Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Conference > Post Office Box 3047, Shepherdstown, WV 25443 (304) 876-2373 or > (304) 724-6763. FAX: > (815) 550-6067 > > WORKSTUDY and INTERNSHIP programs for both the 1999 BD Conference and the > Claymont Farm Biodynamic CSA are available. Please contact Allan ASAP at > the above addresses. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jul 28 20:10:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA11799 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 20:10:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05476; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:48:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3.hawaii.rr.com (smtp3.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05321 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:45:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phyl - 204.210.127.172 by smtp3.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:34:53 -1000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990728131300.00c9e700@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:18:14 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: Re: how to repel mosquitoes In-Reply-To: <61e265cd.24c5f460@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3359550==_.ALT" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1374 --=====================_3359550==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Hilary, Some folks who come to work on our farm have found a natural insecticide available locally to be quite effective. It has lemon grass and citronella in it. I'd also consider asking Gareth how the gal COLLECTED the mosquitos she succussed to D6. Maybe we could try it. Phyl ============================================== pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com Phyl Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. Waianae, HI 96792 808-696-1010 808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_3359550==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dear Hilary,

Some folks who come to work on our farm have found a natural insecticide available locally to be quite effective. It has lemon grass and citronella in it.

I'd also consider asking Gareth how the gal COLLECTED the mosquitos she succussed to D6. Maybe we could try it.

Phyl


==============================================
pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com

Phyl Dwyer
Kahumana Farm
86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd.
Waianae, HI 96792

808-696-1010
808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_3359550==_.ALT-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jul 29 02:20:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA17903 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 02:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA25494; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 02:03:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA25387 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 02:01:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.138.175] (max16-47.stc.net [208.210.138.175]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA18534 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 02:03:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: uai@stc.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 02:08:24 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Mid-Atlantic BD Conference (Pre-lim Announcement) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1375 >Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference. Please do me a >favor and look it over in your spare time and let me know - on BD Now! or >in private - if it communicates to you! (Yes, point out typos by all >means!!) I'm very impressed with the strong interest that has already been >expressed for this years conference. I have to tell you, in all honesty >(and from my own experience), the biodynamic conferences at Claymont Court >are events that you will never forget. Hope to see you there...er....HERE! >:-) -Allan> > >"The Conference that combines "Secrets of the Soil" with "Growing for >Market" - exploring the wonders of the Universe while helping you make >a Better Living while Living Better!" > >The 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference > "Traditional Nutrition and Restorative Farming" > October 1-3, 1999 * Charles Town, WV U.S.A. > >A Few of the Scheduled Speakers and Workshop Leaders >HUGH LOVEL America's foremost biodynamic teacher, author of A > Biodynamic Farm for Growing Healthy Vegetables and America's leading > practitioner of Cosmiculture, speaking on the incredible powers of > Rudolf Steiner's newly rediscovered horn clay. Dear Allan, Thanks. I'll be sending you a few of my fliers too. I don't see where you get "rediscovered" here. It's just just now being discovered isn't it? Best, Hugh ***** Learning? What a puzzle? It's not memory nor repitition. All I've learned took no time, But the living up to it's been my whole life. And I don't teach, though my efforts may lead to learning. Sadly, what I know doesn't transfer, it dies with me. If I skillfully indicate, some things pass and live anew. But learning is up to them/us. Whoever they/we are. There's no teachers. Nothing's taught nor can be. But there are learners--which is why When students are ready teachers arise, amazingly, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jul 29 06:47:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA20576 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 06:47:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA02905; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 06:29:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA02815 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 06:26:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.106] (pm3shep2-163-86.intrepid.net [209.190.163.86]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA30291 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 06:28:33 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 06:29:46 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Mid-Atlantic BD Conference (Pre-lim Announcement) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1376 > >Dear Allan, > >Thanks. I'll be sending you a few of my fliers too. > >I don't see where you get "rediscovered" here. It's just just now being >discovered isn't it? > >Best, >Hugh > > Most likely a misleading statement. I'll try to clarify the basis for saying it that way when I have more time (because it will require some research). In the meantime, I do think of the 'clay singers,' and also of how prominent the use of 'tree paste' was in biodynamics when Pfeiffer was actively involved. (It was sprayed on plants and soils as well as painted on tree trunks.) Let me know pronto how many fliers you are sending to us and I'll send you a like amount of ours for intertion on your end. Thanks -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jul 29 21:24:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA09559 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:24:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19862; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:02:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA16155 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:34:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.138.5] (max15-5.stc.net [208.210.138.5]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA01486 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:36:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001801bed879$90cdc740$0bc76cce@netacc.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 03:35:50 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Mid-Atlantic BD Conference (Pre-lim Announcement) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1377 >Allan: > >Congrats on a very impressive-sounding conference. A slight clarification >is in order, I believe. Credit for the "rediscovery" and development of Horn >Clay , must go to Greg Willis, as I'm sure Hugh Lovel will be the first to >acknowledge. > >Woody > Woody, Allan and List, Quite. Greg certainly has been the leader in this. Though Courtney, Lisle and myself discussed this over a decade ago and Courtney even made some horn clay none of us tried it. Greg is the first one to my knowledge that made horn clay and used it. On last October's tour of Topolos' merlot vineyard at his Russian River Winery, Greg explained his use of horn clay on this piece of land. There was a busy highway at the top end of the vineyard, and I stepped over the ditch and went up the bank to the road. I was assaulted by diesel fumes, worn rubber and asphalt scents and the stench of overheated brake linings, your usual disgusting road smells. Back down the bank I stepped over the ditch, and I was again in a sweet smelling vineyard. I stepped out again and looked at the vineyard in my mind's eye and it was as if it had a membrane, a diaphanous low dome over the whole vineyard that held together its energies and gave it an unusual integrity while it held out the road pollution. It was very surprising and I'd had no previous idea that horn clay might have this effect. In the Agriculture Course, chapter two, we are told that whatever we might do to clay to make it fertile is only of secondary importance. The primary purpose of clay is to convey the silica forces (which come from the widest reaches of the cosmos via the outer planets and the siliceous rocks and sand within the Earth) upward into plants to fruit and seed. And if we have a crop such as potatoes where we want to hold this force back into leaf and stem instead of going to blossom and fruit we want a sandy soil. In chapter three we are again presented with the picture of lime's grasping, greedy nature holding onto everything and holding it down within the earth, while the aristocratic silica wrests the nitrogen and other nutrients loose and frees them. Yet it is clay that conducts the silica forces upward into plants and mediates then between the silica and lime. So the nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium and even the calcium and magnesium would be stuck in the soil if it weren't for the silica responding to the cosmic factor coming from the widest reaches of the cosmos and providing lift for these nutrients so they may rise all the way to blossom, fruit and seed. But even so if it weren't for clay's power to carry the silica forces upward into plants there wouldn't be much happen. At the Artemesia Conference (Anthroposophical Medicine) I stumbled across something that explained why the horn clay acts to form a membrane around the land it is applied to. One of the speakers mentioned that just in the past few years astronomers have been surprised to find that the solar system is self-contained and has an outer bounds, a region where its energies and materials more or less bounce back and are held in from the wide open expanses of the universe. This boundary region has been named the heliopause and it is an important feature of the solar system. This seems to me what horn clay relates to. With our other preps such as 502/Venus, 503/Mercury, etc. we have all the planets represented. And the 500 is earth while the 501 is cosmos. Mediating between the polarities of earth and cosmos is the horn clay, just as the heliopause mediates between the solar system and the wider universe and holds in the energies of the solar system inside its bounds. Up intil this point I was rather puzzled that the horn clay had formed a membrane around Topolos' vineyard that fended off the pollution of the highway and gave a rich, healthy feel to the vineyard itself. Since the heliopause was only discovered a couple years ago, though the idea dates back farther than that, it should be no surprise that horn clay was only discovered a couple years ago too. This year on my farm the horn clay has made such a difference in how things have grown it is a bit hard to believe. Most of our field broadcaster (cosmic pipe) customers have noticed it too, as we include the horn clay reagents in every field broadcaster kit. I've never seen my corn grow better, and it has had no compost--no fertility inputs whatsoever. I grow ginger every summer, but this summer it is growing 3 or 4 times more vigorously. Our garlic was truly exceptional in its quality, and the bulbs were surprisingly large. My late sweet corn has always looked like it was running out of steam. Not this year, despite having no compost. My butternut squash is putting in an incredible performance, and again no compost. Only my greens got compost, but they usually do. However, my early mustard types have never grown so well. There's clearly more "bottom" in the system now, and the post mid-summer blahs are nowhere to be seen. It's the most exciting development I've seen in biodynamics in all my 23 years experience with BD. My hat's off to Greg Willis on this one. I think he's lapsed into bragging a time of two in the past about his advanced preps, notably horn clay. Well he needn't be perceived as bragging. If anything maybe he has understated things a bit. Horn clay need only be given a fair test. It will speak for itself. It's the missing BD prep that we've needed all along and didn't know it. As it comes into use it is going to take BD to a whole new level of effectiveness. I'm especially seeing this with people who are installing field broadcasters with horn clay reagents in them. Reports trickle in. For example an Idaho wheat farm with something like 400 acres installed a broadcaster early in the year with all the BD preps including horn clay. But the weather was so bad they didn't get their normal fertilizer applications on their wheat. Nevertheless the grain filled out plumper and heavier than these farmers had ever seen before. These folks wouldn't be doing BD if they had to stir and spray preps enough to cover 400 acres. Even if they did stir and spray they wouldn't be doing it frequently nor would they get anything like the effects that broadcasting the preps every day and every night yields. And spraying horn clay would add to the application problems, to say nothing of the fact there is very little available as yet. Needless to say I'm excited about horn clay and I'm somewhat bemused that it took 75 years of BD before it came into use. Thanks to Greg Willis for this one. Best, Hugh Lovel ***** Learning? What a puzzle? It's not memory nor repetition. All I've learned took no time, But the living up to it's been my whole life. And I don't teach, though my efforts may lead to learning. Sadly, what I know doesn't transfer, it dies with me. If I skillfully indicate, some things pass and live anew. But learning is up to them/us. Whoever they/we are. There's no teachers. Nothing's taught nor can be. But there are learners--which is why When students are ready teachers arise, amazingly, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jul 30 06:57:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA16243 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:57:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA14182; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:37:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA14126 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:36:24 -0400 (EDT) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hWHDa07454 (4400) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:38:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9c395830.24d2da8a@aol.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:38:02 EDT Subject: Re: Horn Clay, was Mid Atlantic... To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1378 In a message dated 7/29/99 9:04:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, uai@stc.net writes: << Needless to say I'm excited about horn clay and I'm somewhat bemused that it took 75 years of BD before it came into use. Thanks to Greg Willis for this one. Best, Hugh Lovel >> I am familiar with and am using the BD preps but HORN CLAY is a new one to me though I have read a brochure about Greg Wilis claims/results. Where can I find more info on horn clay? Does JPI have it? Don't recall seeing it listed on their product list. Dan Lynch, Long Mountain Vineyard From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jul 30 08:31:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA16915 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:31:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA16181; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:08:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15958 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:04:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.138.5] (max9-43.stc.net [208.210.135.43]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA22808 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:06:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9c395830.24d2da8a@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:11:55 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Horn Clay, was Mid Atlantic... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1379 >In a message dated 7/29/99 9:04:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, uai@stc.net >writes: > ><< Needless to say I'm excited about horn clay and I'm somewhat bemused that > it took 75 years of BD before it came into use. Thanks to Greg Willis for > this one. > > Best, > Hugh Lovel >> > >I am familiar with and am using the BD preps but HORN CLAY is a new one to me >though I have read a brochure about Greg Wilis claims/results. Where can I >find more info on horn clay? Does JPI have it? Don't recall seeing it >listed on their product list. > >Dan Lynch, Long Mountain Vineyard Dear Dan, Courtney is in the process of making horn clay for public use and it is not on his product list yet. He is, however aware of it and will make it available as soon as he can. I'm shipping him (today) what horn clay I can (spring to spring horn clay). The only other horn clay I'm aware of is from Greg Willis, who has done extensive experimentation with this. I am making horn clay available by means of field broadcasting with a etheric field broadcaster (cosmic pipe) that I've been modifying and testing for the past 14 years. This stationary, self-driven device uses homeopathic horn clay and broadcasts its energies but does not use the preparation up. One broadcaster can cover up to 500 acres, so it is very economical and effective. All of our reagent packages include the 500 (horn manure), 501 (horn silica) and horn clay. For field broadcasting I use spring to fall horn clay in the upper well and fall to spring horn clay in the bottom well--for reasons it would take some length to explain. Outside of the vineyards where horn clay has been applied under Greg Willis' management the only other folks I know of who have used horn clay have had field broadcasters. We don't hear back from everyone with a field broadcaster, but of those who we have heard from they are highly pleased with the resulting improvement in growth and fruiting. With one exception. A Florida orange grower with a field broadcaster initially had little response, and our analysis of his situation ended up determining that first of all his bare, sandy grove was in such shock and low vitality that it couldn't supply enough nitrogen and other nutrients to the trees. He had a lot of problems but nitrogen was the key. With 30 lbs./acre nitrogen and a series of radionic treatments (treatments at a distance) to handle the shock, improve balance and boost the vitality we were told his grove had never looked better. This, however, was after very low fruit set this year, so he basically has no crop on his trees and they are in a vegetative mode. For the long term he needs to establish a cover crop (ideally perinneal peanut in Florida) on his bare sand between his trees. This will draw in and conserve his nitrogen and other nutrients. Anyway, I can't think of any case where clay was needed more, and homeopathic horn clay is about the only form of clay that can be economically applied. Particularly with field broadcasting we have a powerful research tool because we can economically apply such things as the BD preps and right away we see their effects. The effects are so marked that we can definitely say this prep does this thing and that prep does that. And horn clay very clearly carries the nutrients required for growth up into the plant and feeds the whole fruiting and ripen process that occurs in the atmosphere. I realize that there are all kinds of professors out there that require extensive field trials with years of numbers from side-by-side situations with all the yield comparisons and soil and tissue analyses before they can say anything is happening with field broadcasting. But the effects seem to usually be so marked that just about anyone else can see in the first year. Before our incorporation of horn clay in our BD prep packages of reagents for the field broadcasters it was nowhere near so clear that field broadcasting had a significant impact on crops as regards quality, let alone quantity. With the horn clay the difference is very clear. I realize that I'll be hearing for many years to come that, "The yield increase wasn't due to the field broadcaster because we just happened to have ideal weather conditions this year, etc." I believe there's something to that. Wherever we've installed field broadcasters weather conditions have seemed to even out and been more nearly ideal. I think this is one of the things that horn clay does is it ameliorates weather conditions and their impact on the field--again because it give the field such unusual integrity, as though it has a semi-permeable membrane or skin around it. Have to run. Best, Hugh ***** Learning? What a puzzle? It's not memory nor repetition. All I've learned took no time, But the living up to it's been my whole life. And I don't teach, though my efforts may lead to learning. Sadly, what I know doesn't transfer, it dies with me. If I skillfully indicate, some things pass and live anew. But learning is up to them/us. Whoever they/we are. There's no teachers. Nothing's taught nor can be. But there are learners--which is why When students are ready teachers arise, amazingly, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jul 31 00:54:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA06380 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 00:54:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA09756; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 00:38:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA09624 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 00:35:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d144.infoserve.net [199.175.157.144]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA05154 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000d01bedb0e$eb4d7660$909dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: bees/GE-crops /Fw: GEN7-30 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:41:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1380 > > I have taken some of the text out. M. >-----Original Message----- >From: Richard Wolfson >To: info@natural-law.ca >Date: Friday, July 30, 1999 7:24 AM >Subject: GEN7-30 > > >>Press Release July 27, 1999 >> >>Institute of Science in Society >> >>Contact: Dr. Mae-Wan Ho. Tel: 44-01908-653113/44-0171-272-5636 >>e-mail: m.w.ho@open.ac.uk >> >>MAFF Reveals New Scientific Findings Confirming Fears Over Health Hazards >>of GMOs >> >>The following warnings come from a letter from N. Tomlinson of UK MAFF's >>Joint Food Safety and Standards Group dated 4 December 1998 to the US FDA, >>commenting on its draft document, "Guidance for Industry: Use of Antibiotic >>Resistance Marker Genes in Transgenic Plants". >> >>* Exposure of farm workers and food processors to transgenic DNA in >>dust and pollen >> >>* Transfer of antibiotic resistant marker genes to gut microorganisms >> >>* Transfer of antibiotic marker genes to environmental organisms >> >>* Transfer of transgenic DNA into mammalian cells >> >>* Ampicillin resistance marker gene may compromise treatment for >>meningitis >> >>The letter from MAFF cites new findings from the University of Leeds >>showing "the relative difficulty with which plant DNA is degraded during >>processing"(p.4). >> >>It mentions other new research showing that bacteria in the mouth can take >>up foreign DNA and express the gene(s); and transformable bacteria are also >>present in the respiratory tract. >> >>MAFF warns that "there is a case to be concerned about the problem of gene >>transfer to environmental organisms" and that bacteria that have taken up >>the antibiotic resistance genes "could also act as a gene pool that may >>interact with human pathogens." (p.4). >> >>"The widespread use of transgenics carrying antibiotic resistance marker >>genes will involve a massive amplification of these genes in the biosphere. >>Whether or not these genes are expressed, amplification on the scale that >>will occur when transgenic crops are planted in large fields means that >>arguments about the rarity of possible transfer events will become less >>significant." (p.5). >> >>MAFF cites recent publications showing that transgenic DNA may gain access >>into mammalian cells by being carried in pathogenic bacteria that invade >>cells. >> >>The ampicillin-resistance marker gene encodes a beta-lactamase which >>inactivates penicillin and other penicillin-like antibiotics. This gene is >>highly mutable, and hence capable of extending its spectrum of resistence >>to many other similar antibiotics. >> >>"Human respiratory flora contains notable potential pathogens including >>Neisseria meningitidis and Streptococcus pneumoniae. These bacteria do not >>currently exhibit high-level, beta-lactamase mediated resistance to >>penicillins." (p.5) >> >>Dr. Mae-Wan Ho , a scientists who has been warning of these possibilities >>of horizontal gene transfer to unrelated species for several years, >>says,"It is irresponsible for the Government to continue with the massive >>farm-scale field trials in view of the evidence its own scientists are >>taking into account." She points out that transgenic pollen can travel for >>miles. Not only farm workers and food processors, but the general public >>will also be exposed to transgenic DNA, while bees will certainly take it >>up and contaminate the honey. > >> > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jul 31 05:24:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA08681 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 05:24:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA15513; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 05:07:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA15484 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 05:06:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-78.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.78]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA03233 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 19:08:59 +1000 Message-ID: <004901bedb34$1611cc00$4e431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Horn Clay, was Mid Atlantic... Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:38:14 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1381 Dear Hugh, We were at a BD Field Day last week as part of our very successful BD Conference for Practising BD Farmers held in Maitland NSW, Australia, and John Priestly has been using horn clay for the last 8 years. He makes it up as you do and mixes it with his prep.500, then it goes through the stirring for 1 hour and is sprayed out as usual. His farm is fantastic, he grows 6000 citrus trees and has the whole lot presold as the flavour is so good. John said he has just always used the clay although the idea was new to many of us there. I shall have to ask him where he got the idea from. I have some down with my 500 horns, and plan to share it around to some of our farmers out west who are having lots of problems getting the life into their sandy soils. John is also a great proponent of using Pre.501, and uses it for thinning of the fruit as well as for bringing up the flavour and colour near to harvest. I feel there is a great future using the horn clay and 501 as we work more with them and understand them more. Best wishes, Cheryl Kemp. -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Lovel To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, 30 July 1999 10:12 pm Subject: Re: Horn Clay, was Mid Atlantic... >>In a message dated 7/29/99 9:04:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, uai@stc.net >>writes: >> >><< Needless to say I'm excited about horn clay and I'm somewhat bemused that >> it took 75 years of BD before it came into use. Thanks to Greg Willis for >> this one. >> >> Best, >> Hugh Lovel >> >> >>I am familiar with and am using the BD preps but HORN CLAY is a new one to me >>though I have read a brochure about Greg Wilis claims/results. Where can I >>find more info on horn clay? Does JPI have it? Don't recall seeing it >>listed on their product list. >> >>Dan Lynch, Long Mountain Vineyard > >Dear Dan, > >Courtney is in the process of making horn clay for public use and it is not >on his product list yet. He is, however aware of it and will make it >available as soon as he can. I'm shipping him (today) what horn clay I can >(spring to spring horn clay). The only other horn clay I'm aware of is from >Greg Willis, who has done extensive experimentation with this. > >I am making horn clay available by means of field broadcasting with a >etheric field broadcaster (cosmic pipe) that I've been modifying and >testing for the past 14 years. This stationary, self-driven device uses >homeopathic horn clay and broadcasts its energies but does not use the >preparation up. One broadcaster can cover up to 500 acres, so it is very >economical and effective. All of our reagent packages include the 500 (horn >manure), 501 (horn silica) and horn clay. For field broadcasting I use >spring to fall horn clay in the upper well and fall to spring horn clay in >the bottom well--for reasons it would take some length to explain. > >Outside of the vineyards where horn clay has been applied under Greg >Willis' management the only other folks I know of who have used horn clay >have had field broadcasters. We don't hear back from everyone with a field >broadcaster, but of those who we have heard from they are highly pleased >with the resulting improvement in growth and fruiting. With one exception. >A Florida orange grower with a field broadcaster initially had little >response, and our analysis of his situation ended up determining that first >of all his bare, sandy grove was in such shock and low vitality that it >couldn't supply enough nitrogen and other nutrients to the trees. He had a >lot of problems but nitrogen was the key. With 30 lbs./acre nitrogen and a >series of radionic treatments (treatments at a distance) to handle the >shock, improve balance and boost the vitality we were told his grove had >never looked better. This, however, was after very low fruit set this year, >so he basically has no crop on his trees and they are in a vegetative mode. >For the long term he needs to establish a cover crop (ideally perinneal >peanut in Florida) on his bare sand between his trees. This will draw in >and conserve his nitrogen and other nutrients. Anyway, I can't think of any >case where clay was needed more, and homeopathic horn clay is about the >only form of clay that can be economically applied. > >Particularly with field broadcasting we have a powerful research tool >because we can economically apply such things as the BD preps and right >away we see their effects. The effects are so marked that we can definitely >say this prep does this thing and that prep does that. And horn clay very >clearly carries the nutrients required for growth up into the plant and >feeds the whole fruiting and ripen process that occurs in the atmosphere. I >realize that there are all kinds of professors out there that require >extensive field trials with years of numbers from side-by-side situations >with all the yield comparisons and soil and tissue analyses before they can >say anything is happening with field broadcasting. But the effects seem to >usually be so marked that just about anyone else can see in the first year. >Before our incorporation of horn clay in our BD prep packages of reagents >for the field broadcasters it was nowhere near so clear that field >broadcasting had a significant impact on crops as regards quality, let >alone quantity. With the horn clay the difference is very clear. > >I realize that I'll be hearing for many years to come that, "The yield >increase wasn't due to the field broadcaster because we just happened to >have ideal weather conditions this year, etc." I believe there's something >to that. Wherever we've installed field broadcasters weather conditions >have seemed to even out and been more nearly ideal. I think this is one of >the things that horn clay does is it ameliorates weather conditions and >their impact on the field--again because it give the field such unusual >integrity, as though it has a semi-permeable membrane or skin around it. > >Have to run. > >Best, >Hugh > >***** > >Learning? What a puzzle? It's not memory nor repetition. > >All I've learned took no time, >But the living up to it's been my whole life. > >And I don't teach, though my efforts may lead to learning. > >Sadly, what I know doesn't transfer, it dies with me. >If I skillfully indicate, some things pass and live anew. > >But learning is up to them/us. Whoever they/we are. > >There's no teachers. Nothing's taught nor can be. > >But there are learners--which is why >When students are ready teachers arise, amazingly, > > >Hugh Lovel >8475 Dockery Road >Blairsville, Georgia 30512 > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jul 31 08:02:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA09873 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 08:02:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA17878; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 07:46:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA17827 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 07:45:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.42] (pm3shep4-163-169.intrepid.net [209.190.163.169]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA05938 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 07:47:34 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004901bedb34$1611cc00$4e431ccb@cherylke> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 19:51:48 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Pre.501 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1382 Dear Cheryl - Thanks for adding insight to the history of horn clay. John Priestly would be a great one to talk to on this list! (Are there any write-ups on the use of Horn Clay?) Can you tell us more about "Pre.501"? This is something that has slipped by me. Thanks again -Allan >Dear Hugh, >We were at a BD Field Day last week as part of our very successful BD >Conference for Practising BD Farmers held in Maitland NSW, Australia, and >John Priestly has been using horn clay for the last 8 years. He makes it up >as you do and mixes it with his prep.500, then it goes through the stirring >for 1 hour and is sprayed out as usual. His farm is fantastic, he grows >6000 citrus trees and has the whole lot presold as the flavour is so good. >John said he has just always used the clay although the idea was new to many >of us there. I shall have to ask him where he got the idea from. I have >some down with my 500 horns, and plan to share it around to some of our >farmers out west who are having lots of problems getting the life into their >sandy soils. >John is also a great proponent of using Pre.501, and uses it for thinning of >the fruit as well as for bringing up the flavour and colour near to harvest. >I feel there is a great future using the horn clay and 501 as we work more >with them and understand them more. >Best wishes, >Cheryl Kemp. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Hugh Lovel >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Friday, 30 July 1999 10:12 pm >Subject: Re: Horn Clay, was Mid Atlantic... > > >>>In a message dated 7/29/99 9:04:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, uai@stc.net >>>writes: >>> >>><< Needless to say I'm excited about horn clay and I'm somewhat bemused >that >>> it took 75 years of BD before it came into use. Thanks to Greg Willis for >>> this one. >>> >>> Best, >>> Hugh Lovel >> >>> >>>I am familiar with and am using the BD preps but HORN CLAY is a new one to >me >>>though I have read a brochure about Greg Wilis claims/results. Where can >I >>>find more info on horn clay? Does JPI have it? Don't recall seeing it >>>listed on their product list. >>> >>>Dan Lynch, Long Mountain Vineyard >> >>Dear Dan, >> >>Courtney is in the process of making horn clay for public use and it is not >>on his product list yet. He is, however aware of it and will make it >>available as soon as he can. I'm shipping him (today) what horn clay I can >>(spring to spring horn clay). The only other horn clay I'm aware of is from >>Greg Willis, who has done extensive experimentation with this. >> >>I am making horn clay available by means of field broadcasting with a >>etheric field broadcaster (cosmic pipe) that I've been modifying and >>testing for the past 14 years. This stationary, self-driven device uses >>homeopathic horn clay and broadcasts its energies but does not use the >>preparation up. One broadcaster can cover up to 500 acres, so it is very >>economical and effective. All of our reagent packages include the 500 (horn >>manure), 501 (horn silica) and horn clay. For field broadcasting I use >>spring to fall horn clay in the upper well and fall to spring horn clay in >>the bottom well--for reasons it would take some length to explain. >> >>Outside of the vineyards where horn clay has been applied under Greg >>Willis' management the only other folks I know of who have used horn clay >>have had field broadcasters. We don't hear back from everyone with a field >>broadcaster, but of those who we have heard from they are highly pleased >>with the resulting improvement in growth and fruiting. With one exception. >>A Florida orange grower with a field broadcaster initially had little >>response, and our analysis of his situation ended up determining that first >>of all his bare, sandy grove was in such shock and low vitality that it >>couldn't supply enough nitrogen and other nutrients to the trees. He had a >>lot of problems but nitrogen was the key. With 30 lbs./acre nitrogen and a >>series of radionic treatments (treatments at a distance) to handle the >>shock, improve balance and boost the vitality we were told his grove had >>never looked better. This, however, was after very low fruit set this year, >>so he basically has no crop on his trees and they are in a vegetative mode. >>For the long term he needs to establish a cover crop (ideally perinneal >>peanut in Florida) on his bare sand between his trees. This will draw in >>and conserve his nitrogen and other nutrients. Anyway, I can't think of any >>case where clay was needed more, and homeopathic horn clay is about the >>only form of clay that can be economically applied. >> >>Particularly with field broadcasting we have a powerful research tool >>because we can economically apply such things as the BD preps and right >>away we see their effects. The effects are so marked that we can definitely >>say this prep does this thing and that prep does that. And horn clay very >>clearly carries the nutrients required for growth up into the plant and >>feeds the whole fruiting and ripen process that occurs in the atmosphere. I >>realize that there are all kinds of professors out there that require >>extensive field trials with years of numbers from side-by-side situations >>with all the yield comparisons and soil and tissue analyses before they can >>say anything is happening with field broadcasting. But the effects seem to >>usually be so marked that just about anyone else can see in the first year. >>Before our incorporation of horn clay in our BD prep packages of reagents >>for the field broadcasters it was nowhere near so clear that field >>broadcasting had a significant impact on crops as regards quality, let >>alone quantity. With the horn clay the difference is very clear. >> >>I realize that I'll be hearing for many years to come that, "The yield >>increase wasn't due to the field broadcaster because we just happened to >>have ideal weather conditions this year, etc." I believe there's something >>to that. Wherever we've installed field broadcasters weather conditions >>have seemed to even out and been more nearly ideal. I think this is one of >>the things that horn clay does is it ameliorates weather conditions and >>their impact on the field--again because it give the field such unusual >>integrity, as though it has a semi-permeable membrane or skin around it. >> >>Have to run. >> >>Best, >>Hugh >> >>***** >> >>Learning? What a puzzle? It's not memory nor repetition. >> >>All I've learned took no time, >>But the living up to it's been my whole life. >> >>And I don't teach, though my efforts may lead to learning. >> >>Sadly, what I know doesn't transfer, it dies with me. >>If I skillfully indicate, some things pass and live anew. >> >>But learning is up to them/us. Whoever they/we are. >> >>There's no teachers. Nothing's taught nor can be. >> >>But there are learners--which is why >>When students are ready teachers arise, amazingly, >> >> >>Hugh Lovel >>8475 Dockery Road >>Blairsville, Georgia 30512 >> >> >> >> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jul 31 10:45:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11143 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:45:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22104; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21895 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:24:14 -0400 (EDT) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hHYPa23990 (3936) for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:25:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20f97b8d.24d46173@aol.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:25:55 EDT Subject: Re: Pre.501 To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1383 In a message dated 7/31/99 7:49:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, igg@igg.com writes: << Can you tell us more about "Pre.501"? This is something that has slipped by me. >> I to thought it was something different at first but apparently just an abbreviation for preparation 501 judging from her usage later in note. Got some info from Hugh on horn clay but would love to hear more from those who have used it. Dan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jul 31 11:06:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11310 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 11:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22781; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:47:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22736 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:46:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.42] (pm3shep1-163-24.intrepid.net [209.190.163.24]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA26854 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:48:23 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20f97b8d.24d46173@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 22:52:38 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Pre.501 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1384 >In a message dated 7/31/99 7:49:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, igg@igg.com >writes: > ><< Can you tell us more about "Pre.501"? This is something that has slipped >by me. >> > >I to thought it was something different at first but apparently just an >abbreviation for preparation 501 judging from her usage later in note. > >Got some info from Hugh on horn clay but would love to hear more from those >who have used it. Dan That one's on me, Dan! One has to be ready to learn about anything and yet never trust words! :-) Thanks -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 1 07:47:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA24856 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 07:47:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA28509; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 07:31:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA28445 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 07:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.169] (pm3shep1-163-30.intrepid.net [209.190.163.30]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA24329 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 07:29:56 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 19:21:50 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: AGNIHOTRA: Solar Eclipse Aug. 11th Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1385 : Dear friends, : I wanted to clarify the confusion about the timing to perform yajnyas : during the upcoming solar eclipse on Aug. 11th. The time that Richard gave : in his last email was 10:12am to 12:27pm GMT. This is the correct time if : you live in England which is Greenwich Mean Time (GMT). Enclosed are the : exact timings for the solar eclipse for each time zone in the US. The : "peak" of the solar eclipse is the time that the Sun and Moon are at the : exact degrees which is 11:09am GMT or about the middle of the above timing. : Apparently, the eclipse can be seen (if you're in the proper location on : the planet like England) about an hour before the "peak" time and about an : hour and 20 minutes after, which is what is meant by the time spread of : 10:12 am to 12:27 pm GMT. From what I'm told yajnya is especially important : at the peak time but, of course, it would be best to do it during the full : duration of the eclipse or longer if possible. In Maui, our group of Agni : Hotra practitioners will begin with Agni Hotra at sunset and continue with : Maha Mrtyunjaya Homa until the end of the eclipse at 2:27am. Traditionally : the eclipses are the most powerful time for spiritual practices because the : veils are thinner between realms. In addition, this particular eclipse is : very significant because it's the last eclipse of the millennium and the : planetary configurations line up to be what astrologers call a grand cross. : This kind of astrological event doesn't happen but once every several : hundred years! All said this is an incredible opportunity to go deep with : our practices and send purifying vibrations into the atmosphere to begin to : herald in the new millennium. Blessings! Jai Shree! Vaughn Paul Manley : : EST (Eastern Standard Time): 6:12am to 8:27am. Peak is at 7:09am. : CST (Central Standard Time): 5:12am to 7:27am. Peak is at 6:09am. : MST (Mountain Standard Time): 4:12am to 6:27am. Peak is at 5:09am. : PST (Pacific Standard Time): 3:12am to 5:27am. Peak is at 4:09am. : HST (Hawaii Standard Time): 12:12am to 2:27am. Peak is at 1:09am. : : From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 1 09:38:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA25241 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 09:38:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00966; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 09:21:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00883 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 09:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d143.infoserve.net [199.175.157.143]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA28581 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 06:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000801bedc21$85cba5a0$8f9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: AGNIHOTRA: Solar Eclipse Aug. 11th Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 06:26:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1386 Allan, The eclipse is not visible out here in the West, especially at 3 am when it is still dark, being a Sun eclipse. Nemaste, M. -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, August 01, 1999 4:37 AM Subject: OFF: AGNIHOTRA: Solar Eclipse Aug. 11th >: Dear friends, >: I wanted to clarify the confusion about the timing to perform yajnyas >: during the upcoming solar eclipse on Aug. 11th. The time that Richard gave >: in his last email was 10:12am to 12:27pm GMT. This is the correct time if >: you live in England which is Greenwich Mean Time (GMT). Enclosed are the >: exact timings for the solar eclipse for each time zone in the US. The >: "peak" of the solar eclipse is the time that the Sun and Moon are at the >: exact degrees which is 11:09am GMT or about the middle of the above >timing. >: Apparently, the eclipse can be seen (if you're in the proper location on >: the planet like England) about an hour before the "peak" time and about an >: hour and 20 minutes after, which is what is meant by the time spread of >: 10:12 am to 12:27 pm GMT. From what I'm told yajnya is especially >important >: at the peak time but, of course, it would be best to do it during the full >: duration of the eclipse or longer if possible. In Maui, our group of Agni >: Hotra practitioners will begin with Agni Hotra at sunset and continue with >: Maha Mrtyunjaya Homa until the end of the eclipse at 2:27am. >Traditionally >: the eclipses are the most powerful time for spiritual practices because >the >: veils are thinner between realms. In addition, this particular eclipse is >: very significant because it's the last eclipse of the millennium and the >: planetary configurations line up to be what astrologers call a grand >cross. >: This kind of astrological event doesn't happen but once every several >: hundred years! All said this is an incredible opportunity to go deep with >: our practices and send purifying vibrations into the atmosphere to begin >to >: herald in the new millennium. Blessings! Jai Shree! Vaughn Paul Manley >: >: EST (Eastern Standard Time): 6:12am to 8:27am. Peak is at 7:09am. >: CST (Central Standard Time): 5:12am to 7:27am. Peak is at 6:09am. >: MST (Mountain Standard Time): 4:12am to 6:27am. Peak is at 5:09am. >: PST (Pacific Standard Time): 3:12am to 5:27am. Peak is at 4:09am. >: HST (Hawaii Standard Time): 12:12am to 2:27am. Peak is at 1:09am. >: >: > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 1 17:57:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA00848 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 17:57:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19609; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 17:36:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19494 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 17:32:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.169] (pm3shep4-163-183.intrepid.net [209.190.163.183]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA30005 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 17:34:46 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 05:39:10 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: For those who use the Preps: JPI Recommendations Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1387 At 06:49 PM 7/12/99 -0500, Allan Balliett wrote: > >Hugh J. Courtney >Recommendations for Working with Crops, Sequential Spraying, and Ashing >(For EDT/U.S.A.) >July, August and September, 1999 in the BD Farm or Garden >.> >Best Sequential Spray Periods >If moisture lacking: .. >Saturday, July 31 @ 10 pm through Tuesday, August 3 @ 2 pm .. After speaking with Hugh Courtney this afternoon I just finished spraying BC in the darkness. Tomorrow AM comes 501, then 500 tomorrow night, 508 Monday AM, and milk and honey Tuesday AM. Over here in upstate SC we're 10 inches below normal (average) rainfall for the year (33%). Hugh said that since he sprayed the sequence in June they've had showers twice a week and his is the only county in VA that is not a drought disaster. There is still time to do a sequence (without milk and honey) by beginning tomorrow night (Sun 8/1). Lance Howard Lance & Dana Howard Loose Stone Farm Central, South Carolina 864/639-0822 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 1 20:43:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA02045 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:43:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA25553; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA25467 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:21:27 -0400 (EDT) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hWTSa06249 (4311) for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:22:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:22:27 EDT Subject: Re: For those who use the Preps: JPI Recommendations To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1388 In a message dated 08/01/1999 5:39:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, igg@igg.com writes: << After speaking with Hugh Courtney this afternoon I just finished spraying BC in the darkness. Tomorrow AM comes 501, then 500 tomorrow night, 508 Monday AM, and milk and honey Tuesday AM. Over here in upstate SC we're 10 inches below normal (average) rainfall for the year (33%). Hugh said that since he sprayed the sequence in June they've had showers twice a week and his is the only county in VA that is not a drought disaster. There is still time to do a sequence (without milk and honey) by beginning tomorrow night (Sun 8/1). Lance Howard Lance & Dana Howard >> I am also in VA, northeast of JPI and we just had a 0.6 inch shower this evening on top of 0.1 inch last night. Here is my report on sequential spraying. Sequential Spraying: Did it twice in June (sent in reports to JPI), shortened version the second time. No milk and honey. Worked both times as defined by greater than 0.25" within eight days. From July 1-29 we have had 6.0 inches of rain. We are 8 miles east of the Lynchburg reporting station and they have had 4.29 inches in July or 1.7 inches less. We had less than 2 inches of rain in both May and June. I'm impressed. Dan L From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 2 00:50:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA04932 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 00:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA10051; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 00:30:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA09669 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 00:28:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from micron - 153.34.29.231 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 21:30:14 -0700 Message-ID: <000901bedca0$5b06c140$e71d2299@micron> From: "Wells" To: References: Subject: Flowforms Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 21:34:47 -0700 Organization: Microsoft Corporation X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1389 Sources for flowforms? Anyone with experience with them in mixing preps? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 2 01:08:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA05071 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 01:08:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA10885; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 00:51:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA10762 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 00:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-69.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.69]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA05995 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 14:50:08 +1000 Message-ID: <001501bedca2$4215f320$45431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Pre.501 Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:13:54 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1390 -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, 31 July 1999 9:50 pm Subject: Pre.501 >Dear Cheryl - > >Thanks for adding insight to the history of horn clay. John Priestly would >be a great one to talk to on this list! (Are there any write-ups on the use >of Horn Clay?) Not yet Allan, I will try and get an interview with him for our next Nes Leaf and will email it to you then. > >Can you tell us more about "Pre.501"? This is something that has slipped by me. >No it was the p that slipped by me! (prep.) >Thanks again > >-Allan > >>Dear Hugh, >>We were at a BD Field Day last week as part of our very successful BD >>Conference for Practising BD Farmers held in Maitland NSW, Australia, and >>John Priestly has been using horn clay for the last 8 years. He makes it up >>as you do and mixes it with his prep.500, then it goes through the stirring >>for 1 hour and is sprayed out as usual. His farm is fantastic, he grows >>6000 citrus trees and has the whole lot presold as the flavour is so good. >>John said he has just always used the clay although the idea was new to many >>of us there. I shall have to ask him where he got the idea from. I have >>some down with my 500 horns, and plan to share it around to some of our >>farmers out west who are having lots of problems getting the life into their >>sandy soils. >>John is also a great proponent of using Pre.501, and uses it for thinning of >>the fruit as well as for bringing up the flavour and colour near to harvest. >>I feel there is a great future using the horn clay and 501 as we work more >>with them and understand them more. >>Best wishes, >>Cheryl Kemp. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Hugh Lovel >>To: bdnow@envirolink.org >>Date: Friday, 30 July 1999 10:12 pm >>Subject: Re: Horn Clay, was Mid Atlantic... >> >> >>>>In a message dated 7/29/99 9:04:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, uai@stc.net >>>>writes: >>>> >>>><< Needless to say I'm excited about horn clay and I'm somewhat bemused >>that >>>> it took 75 years of BD before it came into use. Thanks to Greg Willis for >>>> this one. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Hugh Lovel >> >>>> >>>>I am familiar with and am using the BD preps but HORN CLAY is a new one to >>me >>>>though I have read a brochure about Greg Wilis claims/results. Where can >>I >>>>find more info on horn clay? Does JPI have it? Don't recall seeing it >>>>listed on their product list. >>>> >>>>Dan Lynch, Long Mountain Vineyard >>> >>>Dear Dan, >>> >>>Courtney is in the process of making horn clay for public use and it is not >>>on his product list yet. He is, however aware of it and will make it >>>available as soon as he can. I'm shipping him (today) what horn clay I can >>>(spring to spring horn clay). The only other horn clay I'm aware of is from >>>Greg Willis, who has done extensive experimentation with this. >>> >>>I am making horn clay available by means of field broadcasting with a >>>etheric field broadcaster (cosmic pipe) that I've been modifying and >>>testing for the past 14 years. This stationary, self-driven device uses >>>homeopathic horn clay and broadcasts its energies but does not use the >>>preparation up. One broadcaster can cover up to 500 acres, so it is very >>>economical and effective. All of our reagent packages include the 500 (horn >>>manure), 501 (horn silica) and horn clay. For field broadcasting I use >>>spring to fall horn clay in the upper well and fall to spring horn clay in >>>the bottom well--for reasons it would take some length to explain. >>> >>>Outside of the vineyards where horn clay has been applied under Greg >>>Willis' management the only other folks I know of who have used horn clay >>>have had field broadcasters. We don't hear back from everyone with a field >>>broadcaster, but of those who we have heard from they are highly pleased >>>with the resulting improvement in growth and fruiting. With one exception . >>>A Florida orange grower with a field broadcaster initially had little >>>response, and our analysis of his situation ended up determining that first >>>of all his bare, sandy grove was in such shock and low vitality that it >>>couldn't supply enough nitrogen and other nutrients to the trees. He had a >>>lot of problems but nitrogen was the key. With 30 lbs./acre nitrogen and a >>>series of radionic treatments (treatments at a distance) to handle the >>>shock, improve balance and boost the vitality we were told his grove had >>>never looked better. This, however, was after very low fruit set this year, >>>so he basically has no crop on his trees and they are in a vegetative mode. >>>For the long term he needs to establish a cover crop (ideally perinneal >>>peanut in Florida) on his bare sand between his trees. This will draw in >>>and conserve his nitrogen and other nutrients. Anyway, I can't think of any >>>case where clay was needed more, and homeopathic horn clay is about the >>>only form of clay that can be economically applied. >>> >>>Particularly with field broadcasting we have a powerful research tool >>>because we can economically apply such things as the BD preps and right >>>away we see their effects. The effects are so marked that we can definitely >>>say this prep does this thing and that prep does that. And horn clay very >>>clearly carries the nutrients required for growth up into the plant and >>>feeds the whole fruiting and ripen process that occurs in the atmosphere. I >>>realize that there are all kinds of professors out there that require >>>extensive field trials with years of numbers from side-by-side situations >>>with all the yield comparisons and soil and tissue analyses before they can >>>say anything is happening with field broadcasting. But the effects seem to >>>usually be so marked that just about anyone else can see in the first year. >>>Before our incorporation of horn clay in our BD prep packages of reagents >>>for the field broadcasters it was nowhere near so clear that field >>>broadcasting had a significant impact on crops as regards quality, let >>>alone quantity. With the horn clay the difference is very clear. >>> >>>I realize that I'll be hearing for many years to come that, "The yield >>>increase wasn't due to the field broadcaster because we just happened to >>>have ideal weather conditions this year, etc." I believe there's something >>>to that. Wherever we've installed field broadcasters weather conditions >>>have seemed to even out and been more nearly ideal. I think this is one of >>>the things that horn clay does is it ameliorates weather conditions and >>>their impact on the field--again because it give the field such unusual >>>integrity, as though it has a semi-permeable membrane or skin around it. >>> >>>Have to run. >>> >>>Best, >>>Hugh >>> >>>***** >>> >>>Learning? What a puzzle? It's not memory nor repetition. >>> >>>All I've learned took no time, >>>But the living up to it's been my whole life. >>> >>>And I don't teach, though my efforts may lead to learning. >>> >>>Sadly, what I know doesn't transfer, it dies with me. >>>If I skillfully indicate, some things pass and live anew. >>> >>>But learning is up to them/us. Whoever they/we are. >>> >>>There's no teachers. Nothing's taught nor can be. >>> >>>But there are learners--which is why >>>When students are ready teachers arise, amazingly, >>> >>> >>>Hugh Lovel >>>8475 Dockery Road >>>Blairsville, Georgia 30512 >>> >>> >>> >>> > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 2 01:32:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA05232 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 01:32:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA11614; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 01:12:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA11456 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 01:10:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-75.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.75]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA06045 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:12:27 +1000 Message-ID: <004001bedca5$60574840$45431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Flowforms Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 14:58:57 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1391 WE have a great flowform maker in Australia try the website http://mullum.com.au//flowing Has some good pictures and all the uses for flowforms. In Australia and NZ we use flowforms all the time for stirring 500 & 501 and liquid composts with preps. Especially when we have large areas to spray, we can stir 900 litres at a time. Great for grey water too. Cheryl Kemp Education & Advisory Coordinator Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 -----Original Message----- From: Wells To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, 2 August 1999 2:37 pm Subject: Flowforms >Sources for flowforms? Anyone with experience with them in mixing preps? > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 2 04:41:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA06878 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 04:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA16776; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 04:24:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA16718 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 04:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-058.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.158]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15518 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:38:25 +1200 Message-ID: <000e01bedcbe$51c34040$9ef631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: Flowforms Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:09:11 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1392 We use them all the time...our VB 500 stirs at 500 litres/minute and we stir cowshed effluent, preps 500, 501, 508, 507, and Cow pat pit (Barrel compost). Some guys stir their liquid fertiliser with them to aerate it. Cheers Gareth Bodle Whangarei NZ -----Original Message----- From: Wells To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, 2 August 1999 04:47 PM Subject: Flowforms >Sources for flowforms? Anyone with experience with them in mixing preps? > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 2 04:50:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA06956 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 04:50:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA16906; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 04:28:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA16822 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 04:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.147] (max6-19.stc.net [208.210.133.147]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA26548 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 04:28:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004901bedb34$1611cc00$4e431ccb@cherylke> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 23:06:44 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Horn Clay, was Mid Atlantic... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1393 >Dear Hugh, >We were at a BD Field Day last week as part of our very successful BD >Conference for Practising BD Farmers held in Maitland NSW, Australia, and >John Priestly has been using horn clay for the last 8 years. He makes it up >as you do and mixes it with his prep.500, then it goes through the stirring >for 1 hour and is sprayed out as usual. His farm is fantastic, he grows >6000 citrus trees and has the whole lot presold as the flavour is so good. >John said he has just always used the clay although the idea was new to many >of us there. I shall have to ask him where he got the idea from. I have >some down with my 500 horns, and plan to share it around to some of our >farmers out west who are having lots of problems getting the life into their >sandy soils. >John is also a great proponent of using Pre.501, and uses it for thinning of >the fruit as well as for bringing up the flavour and colour near to harvest. >I feel there is a great future using the horn clay and 501 as we work more >with them and understand them more. >Best wishes, >Cheryl Kemp. Dear Cheryl, Very good! The idea of horn clay has been around quite a while. I got it while reading the Agriculture Course about 12 years ago and discussed it at some length with Harvey Lisle and Hugh Courtney, and both of them had heard of it previously. But there seems to be so much inertia about innovation in biodynamics. There's maybe not enough spirit of adventure or whatever it might be called, and definitely there's not enough real perception of life energy, its polarities, its dynamics, and what goes on with it as regards every element, every organism and organizing situation in nature. Radiation, weather patterns, ocean currents and geology all tell the tales of life forces at work, so what we need to understand is not all just biology. As far as I know in America Greg is the leader as regards horn clay, but there's no reason similar work couldn't have taken place several times in other places on the Earth. And I think the results of using the preps frequently (back-to-back in sequential applications with the horn clay included as part of this sequence) will be more noticeable in the tropics. Peter Proctor seemed to share this view with me, based on his experiences in India and elsewhere in the tropics, though this is another departure from some of the traditional BD views which supposed that BD originated in the temperate zone and perhaps could only be applied there. Still another departure is my perception that the influences of the preps could simply be broadcast into the ethers without the impact on the land of machinery or the tedium and expense of stirring and spraying. With broadcasting a fine attunement with each individual parcel of land and its weaknesses and strengths can be achieved by way of using homeopathic potencies of the preps as foreseen by the work of Lilly Kolisko in AGRICULTURE OF TOMORROW. I quite realize that there has been a rejection of this method (radionics to put a name on it) coming out of Emerson College in particular. Yet would they reject prayer, which is of the same nature but usually not quite so grounded? As one fellow put it from England that I met at the US Psychotronics Convention in Columbus, OH a couple week ago, "I'm convinced that if Rudolf Steiner were alive today he would be involved with radionics." Personally I've long been convinced of the same thing. You see, it's been 75 years and still very little has been done regarding What Steiner said, published in the preface by Pfeiffer in the older Adams translation of the Ag Course, ". . .the benefits of the bio-dynamic compost preparations should be made available as quickly as possible to the largest possible areas of the entire earth, for the earth's healing." There has barely been a scratch made on this noble goal. With somewhere between 4/5 and 5/6 of the Earth's surface being ocean we are going to have to come up with something beyond stirring and spraying. No question, stirring and spraying can only be a start in the right direction. It hasn't and can't accomplish Steiner's above stated goals. Clearly the health of the Earth is deteriorating so rapidly we haven't the centuries it might take to convert the masses to spraying BD preps at their every opportunity. Something more effective is in order, and broadcasting preps homeopathically directly into the ether fields of both soil and atmosphere is a major advance. I believe if enough folks were to gain a good enough grasp of the preps along with a good enough grasp of how prayer works, we could do it all by way of prayer. That may very well be the next major advance, but one step at a time anyway. Thanks for your information. I'd surely like to meetJohn Priestly and hear his stories about making and using horn clay. Best, Hugh ***** Learning? What a puzzle? It's not memory nor repetition. All I've learned took no time, But the living up to it's been my whole life. And I don't teach, though my efforts may lead to learning. Sadly, what I know doesn't transfer, it dies with me. If I skillfully indicate, some things pass and live anew. But learning is up to them/us. Whoever they/we are. There's no teachers. Nothing's taught nor can be. But there are learners--which is why When students are ready teachers arise, amazingly, Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 2 05:11:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA07042 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 05:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA17477; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 04:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA17426 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 04:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.147] (max6-19.stc.net [208.210.133.147]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA26800 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 04:55:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 05:02:12 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: OFF/Fwd: Redneck joke Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1394 > >The bartender was washing his glasses in his nearly deserted bar, when >an elderly Irishman came in and with great difficulty, hoisted his bad leg >over the barstool, pulled himself up painfully, asked for a sip of Irish >whiskey. The Irishman looked down the bar and said, "Is that Jesus down >there?" >The bartender nodded and the Irishman told him to give Jesus an Irish >whiskey also. > >The next patron was an ailing Italian with a hunched back and slowness >of movement. He shuffled up to the barstool and asked for a glass of >Chianti. He also looked down the bar and asked if that was Jesus sitting down >there. The bartender nodded and the Italian said to give Him a glass of >Chianti, also. > >A third patron, a redneck, swaggered in dragging his knuckles on the >floor and hollered. "Barkeep, set me up a cold one. Hey, is that God's Boy >down there?" The barkeep nodded, and the redneck told him to give Jesus a >cold one too. > >As Jesus got up to leave, he walked over to the Irishman and touched him >and said, "For your kindness, you are healed!" The Irishman felt the >strength >come back to his leg, and he got up and danced a jig to the door. > >Jesus touched the Italian and said, "For your kindness you are healed!" >The Italian felt his back straighten and he raised his hands above his head >and did a flip out the door. > >Jesus walked toward the redneck, and the redneck jumped back and >exclaimed, "Don't touch me, man! I'm drawin' disability! > ***** Some Bad Jokes: What's the difference between a southern zoo and a northern zoo? A southern zoo has a description of the animal on the front of the cage, along with a recipe. How do you get a sweet little 80-year-old lady to say f*ck? Get another sweet little 80-year-old lady to yell *BINGO*! What's the Cuban national anthem? "Row, Row, Row Your Boat" Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 2 05:14:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA07073 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 05:14:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA17589; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 04:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA17534 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 04:58:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.133.147] (max6-19.stc.net [208.210.133.147]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA26833 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 05:00:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 05:07:00 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: OFF/Fwd: Actual Employee Evaluations Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1395 > >The following was taken from actual employee evaluations: > >1. Since my last report, this employee has reached rock bottom and >shows signs of starting to dig. > >2. His men would follow him anywhere, but only out of morbid >curiosity. > >3. I would not allow this man to breed. > >4. This associate is really not so much of a has-been, but more of a >definitely won't be. > >5. Works well when under constant supervision and cornered like a rat >in a trap. > >6. When he opens his mouth, it seems that this is only to change >whichever foot was previously in there. > >7. He would be out of his depth in a parking lot puddle. > >8. This man has delusions of adequacy. > >9. He sets low personal standards and the consistently fails to >achieve them. > >10. This employee should go far -- the sooner he starts, the better. > >11. This employee is depriving a village somewhere of an idiot. > >12. Not the sharpest knife in the drawer. > >13. Got into the gene pool while the lifeguard wasn't looking. > >14. A room temperature I.Q. > >15. Got a full six-pack, but is missing the plastic thingy that holds >it together. > >16. A gross ignoramus -- 144 times worse than an ordinary ignoramus. > >17. A photographic memory but with the lens cover glued on. > >18. A prime candidate for natural deselection. > >19. Bright as Alaska in December. > >20. One-celled organisms outscore him in I.Q. tests. > >21. Donated his brain to science before he was quite finished using >it. > >22. Fell out of his family tree. > >23. The gates are down, the lights are flashing, but the trains isn't >coming. > >24. This man has two brains; one is lost and the other is out looking >for it. > >25. He's so dense,light bends around him. > >26. If brains were taxed, he would get a rebate. > >27. Any dumber and he would have to be watered twice a week. > >28. If you gave him a penny for his thoughts, you would get change >back. > >29. If you stand close enough to him, you can hear the ocean. > >30. It's hard to believe that he beat out 1,000,000 other sperm. > >31. One neuron short of a synapse. > >32. Some drink from the fountain of knowledge, he gargled. > >33. Was left on the Tilt-A-Whirl a bit too long as a baby. > >34. Not the brightest bulb in the chandelier. > ***** Some Bad Jokes: What's the difference between a southern zoo and a northern zoo? A southern zoo has a description of the animal on the front of the cage, along with a recipe. How do you get a sweet little 80-year-old lady to say f*ck? Get another sweet little 80-year-old lady to yell *BINGO*! What's the Cuban national anthem? "Row, Row, Row Your Boat" Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 2 07:38:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA07874 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:38:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA20718; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:21:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA20678 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.55] (pm3shep1-163-47.intrepid.net [209.190.163.47]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA21445 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:23:20 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000901bedca0$5b06c140$e71d2299@micron> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:04:13 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Flowforms Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1396 >Sources for flowforms? Anyone with experience with them in mixing preps? I don't know if it's a problem with my shoulders or what, but I never really 'felt' the effects of the preps until I started using a small set of Jennifer Greens flowforms a few years back. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 2 07:40:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA07887 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:40:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA20754; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:21:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA20684 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:21:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.55] (pm3shep1-163-47.intrepid.net [209.190.163.47]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA21454 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:23:25 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:24:28 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: ADMIN: Redneck joke (Sometimes "OFF" ain't enough) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1397 After this season of working with interns, volunteers and Wwoofers, I no longer assume that by simply addressing the Higher Self one can motivate individuals to behave in a fashion that consistently contributes to the Greater Good. In fact, what I've learned is that most people will rise to defend an individual's right to act in a selfish manner. Be that as it may, my friend Hugh Lovel is a v complex individual and displays a wide range of both values and energies, and, of course, possesses a self-depreciating sense of humor. All and all, however, I would greatly appreciate it if everyone would refrain from posting off-topic materials, particularly ones that are readily available from other sources. While we've been in the dog days on this list for some time, I also hope we can avoid a round of reaction to the faux racism of the previous post. Thanking you in advance, -Allan Balliett moderator, BD Now! igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 2 08:02:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08402 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 08:02:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA21312; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:46:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21186 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:42:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp242.cy-net.net [208.21.195.51]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA25452 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 06:44:44 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEDCB2.74BEBFE0@FLYLO>; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 06:44:23 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEDCB2.74BEBFE0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: for the animal breeders: Oh, and a little e coli tip Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 06:41:44 -0500 Encoding: 25 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1398 This is sorta off topic, but in the US, the heat wave has caused some unusual problems among livestock owners. If you raise sheep, or have fleece animals, or just a wooly dog, you may want to watch out for this problem. A gal who works in a vet office commented that they've been seeing an unusual number of maggot-infested pets and stock come to the office. UGH.. it seems the owners, in trying to cool the animals down are wetting them with hoses (I've been guilty of doing it to the llamas, too). If the fleece doesn't have a chance to dry out quickly, flies are laying eggs in the moist hair and w/in a couple of days, a huge maggot problem has erupted. compounded with the fact that screw worms have been discovered in Tx again, a lot of stock owners are rightly worried about it. ALSO, (I'm just a barrel of fun today), an e-coli outbreak in Texas was traced to the ice the group was using for drinks. They were putting in sodas, water bottles, then scooping up the ice with hands to fill glasses. OK, how many here HAVE NOT done this? Try to keep your drinking ice separate from the stuff you chill your drinks down in, and keep a rigid scoop or glass so there is less contact with everyone's hands. My husband is supv on a construction job and a lot of the workers have been getting sick. I'm betting it's somewhat related to passing germs this way. Working 12 hour days, 7 days a week, in the Texas sun will cause any system to shock, doesn't take much to send it into overload. Take a few extra precautions out there this summer. martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 2 09:25:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09304 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:25:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23848; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:10:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA23616 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:06:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip011.computer.net [140.186.252.11]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA16409 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:09:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:09:28 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: August 01, 1999 - August 07, 1999 Message-ID: <8C722962F0B2C9C0852567C100484389.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id JAA23617 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1399 Calendar of the Soul [August 01, 1999 - August 07, 1999] Eighteenth Week (August 4-10) Can I expand my soul That it unites itself With cosmic Word received as seed? I sense that I must find the strength To fashion worthily my soul As fitting raiment for the spirit. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Kann ich die Seele Weiten, Dass sie sich selbst verbindet Empfangnem Welten-Keimesworte? Ich ahne, dass ich Kraft muss finden, Die Seele würdig zu gestalten, Zum Geistes-Kleide sich zu bilden. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+18 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 2 09:26:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09321 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23813; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:09:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA23601 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:06:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip011.computer.net [140.186.252.11]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA16391 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:08:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:09:09 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: For those who use the Preps: JPI Recommendations Message-ID: <5E3154F6E3248219852567C10048304C.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1400 <<>Best Sequential Spray Periods >If moisture lacking: . >Saturday, July 31 @ 10 pm through Tuesday, August 3 @ 2 pm>> so when is the next best window for sequential spraying to bring on some rain? Thanks, Jane Sherry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 2 23:06:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA25917 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:06:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA19295; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:48:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17850 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d142.infoserve.net [199.175.157.142]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA16225; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002001bedd5b$6cf1c920$8e9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: "Ferdy Vondruska" Cc: Subject: OFF / Fw: GEN8-2 Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:53:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1401 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Monday, August 02, 1999 7:29 PM Subject: GEN8-2 >July 30, 1999 > >PARIS, Reuters [WN] via NewsEdge Corporation : France this week said it was >willing to pay up to 10 million francs for research on the possible impact >and risks of genetically modified (GM) crops. > >Announcing a request for proposals, France's Education Ministry said it was >looking for studies geared toward transgenic plants used in agriculture and >their eventual impact on both the environment and human and animal health. > >The ministry said the goal of the research was to produce specifications on >which genetically modified crops were acceptable in terms of security and >also a "code of conduct" setting forth rules on usage of GM crops. > >The ministry said it wanted the research to focus not just on the direct >effects of GM crops but also the indirect effects, such as changes in >farming practices or industry organisation tied to the introduction of one >or more GM crops. > >...... > >Sunday Telegraph Sunday 1 August 1999 >GM killer bugs developed as defence against germ warfare By Joe Murphy, >Political Editor >Porton Down faces criminal inquiry into airman's death > >THE Ministry of Defence has disclosed that it is creating lethal >genetically modified organisms in a secret programme to prepare defences >against a new era of germ warfare. > >Tests of the potential of "GM supergerms" are being conducted at Porton >Down, the headquarters of the Government's chemical and biological defence >establishment. The research uses similar genetic engineering techniques to >those that to create GM foods sold in supermarkets. It was launched to >study the implications should such technology be developed for weapons of >mass destruction by an enemy power. > >The theoretical threat posed by GM germs has alarmed the MoD. Genetic >techniques can make biological weapons more dangerous to humans and less >easy to detect or counter It is already feasible to use genetic >engineering to introduce a lethal toxin into a pathogen - an organism that >attacks humans - to increase its killing potential. Organisms can also be >modified to resist antidotes. > >In future it may be possible to wipe out an army with mutant germs that >would then be made benign by a genetic flaw, enabling an enemy force to >invade in safety. An enemy may be more ready to deploy such "controllable" >GM weapons than existing organisms such as anthrax. Ultimately, it may be >possible to develop an "ethnic destruction" germ, that is, an organism >that would attack the genes of a particular race. > > >In January a study by the British Medical Association warned that a plague >or toxin designed to kill specific racial groups could be only five to 10 >years away. Britain has signed treaties prohibiting the creation of >biological weapons for military purposes. The sole reason for the research >at Porton Down is to develop protection measures against any threat posed >to the population or Servicemen. > >An MoD spokesman said: "To perform this task our scientists have to be at >the cutting edge of biological scientific knowledge, including the >techniques of genetics." The Government has kept the experimental research >secret but The Telegraph has learned that it has been going on for at >least five years > >=============== >2) Sunday Telegraph Sunday 1 August 1999 - GM soya milk gives children >herpes, senior surgeon tells the Government > -By Rajeev Syal > >A LEADING British surgeon is to give evidence to the Government that >genetically modified soya milk triggered a herpes-related virus in her >daughter. > >The surgeon, from south-west London, will explain that cold sores >repeatedly erupted on her two-year-old's face when she regularly drank the >GM product and immediately cleared when she stopped. > > >The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food said last week that it >would investigate her claims. The revelations coincide with worries >expressed by the Prince of Wales earlier this year and a number of leading >geneticists who believe that some GM products can trigger viruses in >humans. > >The woman, who wishes to remain anonymous to protect her daughter said she >wants to make sure that a similar situation is not repeated with other >children. She said: "I want the Government to look into this because I saw >the change in my daughter - as soon as she was taken off the GM milk, her >health dramatically improved. I, and my GP, have not found any other >reasons why she became ill. My family previously ate GM products without >worrying - but now we do not." > >Tests have showed that the child is not allergic to soya milk, which her >mother began feeding her in February 1998, when she was just a year old >because she had developed an allergy to dairy products. The girl >immediately began developing large cold sores which did not respond to >treatment. She was drinking about four pints of the milk every day - and >the sores were getting worse. > >Her mother, a 38-year-old plastic surgeon in a London hospital, said: "I >became aware that she was not getting better. There seemed to be three >large, weeping sores on her face at any one time." So she spoke to a >friend - who is also a hospital-based geneticist - who warned her that >critics of GM products are worried that they could provoke viral >infections. > >She cut the amount of soya milk her daughter was drinking to half a pint a >day and the sores cleared up overnight. She said: "The circumstantial >evidence was there for all to see." Critics of GM foods believe that >"virus promoters" - pieces of DNA in plants that can control activity in >its genes - could be responsible for triggering the herpes virus. But >other experts disagreed. > >Prof Jim Dunwell, a plant biotechnologist from the University of Reading, >who has been involved in producing GM plants, said it is highly unlikely >that plant viruses could provoke reactions in human beings. He said: "It >sounds highly unlikely that this child has had her herpes provoked by soya >milk. It is more likely to be an allergic reaction." > >...... > >July 30, 1999 - Japan Drafts Law On Labeling Gene-Altered Food > >TOKYO (Nikkei) - Japan's Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries >settled Friday on a draft version of a law governing the labeling of food >containing genetically modified organisms (GMOs), The Nihon Keizai Shimbun >Saturday reported in its morning edition, citing ministry sources. > >Soybeans, corn or potatoes grown with gene-altering technology and >processed products using them will have to be labeled as such. The same >rule will be applied if the presence of GMOs or altered protein can be >detected. Under the law, which is scheduled to take effect in April 2000, >the majority of foods containing plant protein, including tofu and corn >snacks, will have to bear such labels. > >Concerns over mandatory labeling have been expressed by food producers, >which are worried that costs will rise, and by the U.S., a major exporter >of gene-altered crops. The aim of the law is to protect consumer choice, >however, according to the Nikkei story. Under the draft version, the >requirements will be limited to genetically altered soybeans, corn and >potatoes because those three now account for the bulk of gene-altered >crops. Japan relies on U.S. imports of soybeans and corn. > >Food companies using soybeans, corn or potatoes imported from the U.S. will >have to test their products for genetic modifications and label the goods >if necessary. If a product's makeup cannot easily be determined because it >contains unmodified foods mixed with GMO ingredients, the producer may have >to label it as unable to be classified, suggesting it contains GMOs. Highly >processed products such as soy sauce and soybean oil are not expected to >require labeling. The ministry will issue a list of any companies lax in >meeting the labeling requirements and will give them instructions on how to >revise their practices. > >................ >Financial Times Tuesday July 13 1999 MONSANTO: The seeds of dispute > >A landmark trial in Canada will set a precedent for Monsanto's ability to >protect its patents on genetically modified crops, says Scott Morrison > >Monsanto, the US life sciences group, has been having a trying time of >late. Efforts to promote genetically modified foods in Europe have >backfired. In England, environmentalists have sabotaged a test site. French >farmers have staged protests against the import of GM crops. > >Back in North America, where the use of GM seeds is more widespread, >Monsanto is battling an altogether different threat: how to prevent farmers >from obtaining its patented seeds illegally. The company says that unless >patent protection laws are enforced, it will have thrown billions of >dollars of investment down the drain. > >In a landmark case, due to be heard by a Canadian judge next month, >Monsanto is taking a 68-year-old farmer to court after he was discovered to >be growing a variety of Monsanto's genetically modified canola (rapeseed) >without its consent. > >The last thing Percy Schmeiser expected after a lifetime of farming was to >be caught in a legal battle with one of the world's leading proponents of >agricultural biotechnology. To hear Mr Schmeiser tell it, the case is about >privacy and a farmer's right to choose. > >He says the wind blew Monsanto seed into his fields, which are planted with >conventional canola. Because it is impossible - other than by genetic >testing - to tell the difference between a normal and a GM canola plant, Mr >Schmeiser says he was not even aware that GM canola was growing in his >property. He does not see why he should be penalised for an accident of >"mother nature". > >The Canadian press has been largely sympathetic to Mr Schmeiser's defence, >often portraying him as an ageing David battling a Goliath of the >agribusiness industry. And while Monsanto may be big, it is vulnerable. The >trial could set a precedent for the degree of control Monsanto and other >biotechnology companies exercise over how their products are used by >customers and others. > >Monsanto says the dispute is a simple case of patent infringement, although >the stakes are extraordinarily high. The company says it must maintain >strict control over the use of its technology in order to recoup its >multi-billion dollar research and development budget. > >Monsanto also argues it must level the playing field for farmers who pay >the company's technology fee when they purchase GM seeds from licensed >dealers. These farmers sign a "Technology Use Agreement" that requires them >to pay a fee to Monsanto based on the acreage they have planted. > >Moreover, farmers cannot save seed in order to plant the following year's >crop. In order to ensure compliance, the agreement gives Monsanto the right >to audit farmers' fields, or take samples, for three years after the seeds >are bought. > >Mr Schmeiser is one of about 600 farmers in Canada and the US accused by >Monsanto of infringing the agreement. Most of these farmers purchased >Monsanto's seeds and signed the agreement, but Mr Schmeiser's case is >different because he never bought Monsanto's GM seeds and says the company >has no right to his property. > >The Schmeiser dispute is therefore an important test of whether Monsanto >will be able to secure patent protection for its seeds beyond its immediate >circle of agricultural customers. > >Mr Schmeiser says the seeds of the dispute were blown into his field in >1997. As farmers customarily do, Mr Schmeiser saved a portion of his 1997 >crop to use as seed in 1998. He argues that if he was in fact growing >genetically modified GM canola in 1998, it was accidentally recycled. > >A key part of the trial, therefore, will hinge on how much of Mr >Schmeiser's crop was genetically modified, and whether that proportion >could be explained by wind-borne contamination or cross-pollination. > >Monsanto acknowledges that cross-pollination does occur, but it alleges Mr >Schmeiser "obtained" seeds. The company is demanding that Mr Schmeiser give >up all GM seeds or crops in his possession. Monsanto also wants a federal >judge in Canada to impose unspecified punitive and exemplary damages. > >But with billions of dollars in research and development at stake, Monsanto >has also been prepared to employ some tough tactics to track down farmers >who violate its agreement. > >A lot of controversy has focused on the company's toll-free "tip line" set >up to enable farmers to report on others who violate Monsanto's >usage terms. Mr Schmeiser also alleges that investigators working for >Monsanto trespassed in his field to collect samples of his crop. "Monsanto >has >put the fear of the Lord into people here," he says. > >Monsanto acknowledges that "some questions exist around one incident," but >maintains that it does not condone any illegal practices and that all >evidence collected to support its case against Mr Schmeiser was obtained >legally. > >Monsanto could do without the adverse publicity. Already, it is under fire >for requiring farmers to buy their seed from the company every year. >Farmers around the world have traditionally saved a portion of >their >harvest in order to plant the following year's crop - and an estimated >three quarters of the world's farmers still do so. Mr Schmeiser accuses >Monsanto of wanting nothing less than to dominate farmers and the industry. >"They want control of the seed supply," he says. > >Ray Mowling, a vice-president for Monsanto Canada, acknowledges that his >firm's practices have introduced a change in farming culture, but he says >the company must recoup its investment and that farmers are free to choose >whether they want to abide by Monsanto's terms. > >An estimated 70 per cent of the canola grown in Canada this year will be >genetically modified, as will some 50 per cent of the soybean and cotton >crops grown in the US. Mr Schmeiser's case, however, raises concern that >farmers might not always have those options, either because their crops >could be cross-pollinated or because there could eventually be >fewer seed suppliers. > >"There is growing nervousness that there may not always be a choice," says >Sally Rutherford, executive director of the Canadian Federation of >Agriculture, which represents more than 200,000 Canadian farmers. > >At Monsanto, Mr Mowling says the company is working harder to demonstrate >that its technology works, resulting in better crops and better food. But >unless it can defend its patents, it will be out of business. However >unpopular, the case against Mr Schmeiser is seen as critical to the >company's future. > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 3 00:26:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA27229 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:26:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA04220; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:08:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.243]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27558 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:01:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-199.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-199.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.199]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA65424 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 04:03:57 GMT Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 04:03:57 GMT Message-Id: <199908030403.EAA65424@out5.ibm.net> X-Sender: nzinet.lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: OFF / Fw: GEN8-2 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1402 > >-----Original Message----- >>................ >>Financial Times Tuesday July 13 1999 MONSANTO: The seeds of dispute >> >>A landmark trial in Canada will set a precedent for Monsanto's ability to >>protect its patents on genetically modified crops, says Scott Morrison >>... >>Back in North America, where the use of GM seeds is more widespread, >>Monsanto is battling an altogether different threat: how to prevent farmers >>from obtaining its patented seeds illegally. The company says that unless >>patent protection laws are enforced, it will have thrown billions of >>dollars of investment down the drain. >> >>In a landmark case, due to be heard by a Canadian judge next month, >>Monsanto is taking a 68-year-old farmer to court after he was discovered to >>be growing a variety of Monsanto's genetically modified canola (rapeseed) >>without its consent. >> >>The last thing Percy Schmeiser expected after a lifetime of farming was to >>be caught in a legal battle with one of the world's leading proponents of >>agricultural biotechnology. To hear Mr Schmeiser tell it, the case is about >>privacy and a farmer's right to choose. >> >>He says the wind blew Monsanto seed into his fields, which are planted with >>conventional canola. It seems to me that what Monsanto needs to do to protect its investment is to prevent its growers from disseminating it, whether it be by movement of seed or cross-pollenation. ie it is Monsanto's reponsibility to contain the genetic material. Otherwise they can happily infect all growers with the GE material, then make extra money by suing the hapless farmers for growing it !! Brilliant strategy !!! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 3 16:49:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA15457 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24030; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22344 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:34:19 -0400 (EDT) From: OrgAgCons@aol.com Received: from OrgAgCons@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hCYSa07549 (4256) for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:35:56 EDT Subject: Re: OFF/Fwd: Redneck joke To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1403 I do not need to read jokes like that on bdnow. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 3 23:57:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA21811 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04012; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:44:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02308 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.132.36] (max3-36.stc.net [208.210.132.36]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA17707 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:45:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:51:46 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF/Fwd: Redneck joke Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1404 >I do not need to read jokes like that on bdnow. That's Perfectly fine. You don't have to read them. I think they were labeled as bad jokes. Hugh ***** Some Bad Jokes: What's the difference between a southern zoo and a northern zoo? A southern zoo has a description of the animal on the front of the cage, along with a recipe. How do you get a sweet little 80-year-old lady to say f*ck? Get another sweet little 80-year-old lady to yell *BINGO*! What's the Cuban national anthem? "Row, Row, Row Your Boat" Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 4 08:59:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA27061 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:59:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09886; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:46:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04305 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00FDE3B4@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 8:41:52 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 4 Aug 99 08:44:31 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 4 Aug 99 08:44:17 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:44:09 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF/Fwd: Redneck joke Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <6B9CB31653B@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1405 OrgAgCons wrote: > I do not need to read jokes like that on bdnow. I had some thoughts about this last night. First, I don't see why "redneck" has to be a racial slur as Allan suggests (I, as a pigment-deprived person certainly don't find it offensive -- to me it refers to a certain stereotype of attitudes and unexamined beliefs which does exist in some people but which doesn't describe me). Second, I think that as humans, we naturally seek community and that is especially true over the internet and especially in a group that is so small and unusual as bd farmers and farmer wannabes (like me), so it should be expected that we show more than one small facet of who we are on the list with a group of people we consider friends. I imagine this must be especially true for someone like Hugh who devotes his whole life to bd. I can only assume that this list has even more significance for him than, for example, me who is not nearly so committed and involved. As such, I would expect him to share personal not bd-related stuff once in a while, like a joke that made him laugh and which he wants to share with the people he considers friends and colleagues. He did clearly lable the post "off" and "redneck joke." If you are predisposed to negative feelings toward off-topic material in general or jokes (or mention of "rednecks") specifically, you just had to delete the post without even opening it. Simple as that. In sum, I just don't see the need to be so uptight about such things and I think we should all cut Hugh and the list some slack. As supporters of sustainable, organic, and bd agriculture, seems to me that what we are saying is that the problems cannot be dealt with in isolation but need to be looked at in the context of the total system. (I hope I don't need to explain that any further.) Anyway, as members of a list serv, I would hope that we could also deal with one another in a more wholistic fasion as well. This list serve, like probably most, serves a purpose of more than just a link for information transfer. It also becomes a defacto water hole where members of the tribe gather to discuss a common interest and, occasionally, something else. Just my thoughts on the issue. Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 4 10:31:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28756 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11775; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07296 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp309.cy-net.net [208.21.195.118]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24712 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:16:36 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEDE59.38C45880@FLYLO>; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:10:39 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEDE59.38C45880@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: joke topic, fall query, HORSE NOTICE Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:10:33 -0500 Encoding: 25 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1406 I certainly don't mind getting jokes on the 'net. No matter if it comes in BD NOW, or if I get foolish and sub up to Joke Of The Day. My only gripe was I'd heard em before! What are BD folk doing to prepare for Fall planting? Believe it or not, we WILL see an end to the heat. It seems only the grasshoppers and goat weeds are thriving right now and I wouldn't lay odds on the goatweed. Oh OH,, I have an announcement! I don't know if this is appropriate to BD topics, but jumping in anyhow. Does anyone farm with draft stock on this list. Yes, I know some do. There is a registered Percheron stallion in Iowa who is about to go to the auction house if someone doesn't want him. He's the only son out of a champion stallion, and I think the owner is just tired of feeding the big ones. His name is Stack, he's coal black, and 4 years old. Covered 8 mares this season and they all settled. He's been handled by a young woman and is easy to be around, mannerly, etc. She's just sick that the owner is going to sell him for meat. He only wants $1000 for him and we figured out at .69 lb meat prices, that's about what he expects to get at auction. He's 18.5 hands and estimated 1500 (+) lbs. The woman who was keeping was doing so to put weight on him but she didn't know it was to meat him out! I have the contact e-mail address if anyone thinks they'd want to look into it farther. martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 4 10:51:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29156 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06210; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:38:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mda.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04611 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:36:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.126.241]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990804144157.XSPA956294.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 02:41:57 +1200 Message-ID: <37A85128.3B00@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 02:41:44 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF:lovelgate /2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1407 Good on you Hugh for bringing some life to an otherwise dull period in BDNOW. Bring back those unpolitic, uncontrolled even hysterical few, from the past that we have chased from our midst. Those who in their arrogance and cheek dared to rattle our cages and bought us thoughts, images and life experiences we never dared consider. Experiences that broadened our appreciation and understanding of the life we are, on this spaceship Earth. Thats were we had our blood flowing and hakkels up, eyes flaring and beings passionate, thats were thoughts and ideas are pulled together, fuzzy beliefs shaked into sharp relief, and fanatical buillshit cast aside. Thats were I vaguely remember waiting expectantly for the next fix of BDNOW. Good on you Hugh, without you BDNOW would just be yet another expression of the uninspired, narrow minded, dogma ridden, quasi religion we call BDAs. Good to see all that BD food and fresh air, not to mention the hard work keeps a sense of humour ALIVE, albeit ever so unacceptable. AT last a sign BD works, who needs the science. Here a joke When was the last time you looked at a scientist and thought "there is a stirling representative of humanity, I wish I was them"? In the spirit of the grand cross ( which we are now offically in) long live the unpolitic, uncouth inspired adventureres of the fringes. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 4 11:02:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29359 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:02:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18656; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17135 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:47:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from laquerencia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EG7FAXV4; Wed, 04 Aug 1999 10:49:07 EDT To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:49:59 -0500 Subject: Re: OFF/Fwd: Redneck joke Message-ID: <19990804.094959.25550.0.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: <6B9CB31653B@agecon.uga.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-4 From: Deborah M Byron Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1408 Very well said, Anita. Now, are you all ready for some redneck lawyer jokes? :-) Deborah ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 4 11:23:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01185 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:23:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15598; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:10:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11989 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:07:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.85] (pm3shep2-163-85.intrepid.net [209.190.163.85]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21378 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:09:41 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:14:11 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Mid-Atlantic BD Conference Brochure Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1409 I've mounted a temporary brochure for the mid-atlantic biodynamic farming and gardening conference on the BD Now! splash page. (You push a link to download it and then read it with Acrobat) http://www.igg.com/bdnow Since that brochure was completed, Jim Barlow has signed on to speak. Jim is one of the countries experts on the soil life food web, a remarkable approach to soil testing that involves studying the actual soil life rather than assaying for minerals. Thanks -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 4 11:34:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01443 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:34:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29116; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:21:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24804 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00FE070D@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:17:12 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 4 Aug 99 11:19:51 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 4 Aug 99 11:19:34 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:19:32 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF/Fwd: Redneck joke Priority: normal In-reply-to: <19990804.094959.25550.0.LaQuerencia@juno.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <6BC61C64327@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1410 > Very well said, Anita. Now, are you all ready for some redneck lawyer > jokes? > > :-) > Deborah Ooops! Did I unleash a monster? Ha ha. Hey, how many quadrapelegic, Polish, redneck lawyers does it take to create an alternating vortex for 20 minutes? No, really, please don't take me too literally. Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 4 11:34:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01444 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29634; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25998 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.16.181]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:20:57 +0100 Message-ID: <37A85A32.1730@cwcom.net> Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 16:20:18 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Redneck jokes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1411 Having added one or two OFF jokes to the list myself in the past, may I too support Hugh? He's absolutely the fellow I'd love to meet regularly in the pub for a beer or two and a laugh or three, if only he weren't several thousand miles away; as it is, the laughs have to be on BD Now! (and our throats remain dry). Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 4 11:41:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01581 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:40:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07247; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05083 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:25:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp43.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.143]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA12377 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:24:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00b001bede8d$81d7a160$b54b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: <37A85128.3B00@xtra.co.nz> Subject: Re: OFF:lovelgate /2 Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:23:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1412 And of course, it is refreshing actually, to see Hugh indulging in some humorous moments..heck, I was beginning to think the guy worked ALL the time...and you KNOW what that makes Jack, er, Hugh.... Speaking of which, at least he's sparked some discussion, which has been seriously lacking of late. The season is drawing to a close & would love to hear what folks are doing...I'm making pickle-relish & trying to figure out where to put all the potatoes we have...despite those nasty beetles earlier (they never DID hit anywhere but that single patch I mentioned) We had 12" of rain in July here, but no flooding in the hills!...unbelievable after watching a guy spray-painting the brown grass green (jeesh, what is wrong with this picture!!??) last night on evening news...somewhere in the east. And wanted to share an astro-ag observation with you too. Yesterday's news again, speaking of the EPA's attention given to the pesticides that are being consumed by children via fruits/veggies...I looked at the aspects...Ceres, Goddess of Ag, in Leo (limelight) in trine to Pluto (cataclysmic change via the drudging up of the deepest muck - pesticides that have been used since the 50's, for heavens' sake!). Pluto is traveling along with Black Moon Lilith (known by some as the 'stealer of children' amoung other things - the kids are suffering nerve & brain disorders). Ceres was being squared by a Jupiter/Moon conjunction in Taurus (moon-children, and jupiter-fruit) and squaring Neptune too (pesticides, poisons) And throw in the Saturn (restriction - they are attempting to limit the uses of certain ag practices - but this is being met with great resistance on the part of conventional farmers...) Will be interesting to see how this pans out...seems that neither side of the issue is happy with the situation...a fixed grand cross...everyone at odds & very little compromise. Wishing you all abundance at harvest... Love Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 4 11:51:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01872 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20273; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19128 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:37:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 23869 invoked from network); 4 Aug 1999 15:39:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.29.219) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 4 Aug 1999 15:39:43 -0000 Message-ID: <000c01bede8e$82d3e640$db1dd2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: OFF/Fwd: Redneck joke Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:32:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1413 Anita said: >OrgAgCons wrote: >> I do not need to read jokes like that on bdnow. >I had some thoughts about this last night. First, I don't see why "redneck" has to be a racial slur as Allan suggests >In sum, I just don't see the need to be so uptight about such things It has been said that every joke is half-jest, half-protest. I hear Allan saying that he is having labor troubles; I hear Hugh pointing out the fellow who doesn't want to be cured by Jesus for fear of losing his livelihood, i.e. his disabled status..... Coleman has an interesting piece on labor relations in The New Organic Grower..... I wonder if Allan might elaborate on his problems, and indicate how he recruited and trained his labor force, how the interactions were structured, how people whose work was unsatisfactory were let go, etc..... (eg, somebody who had hit rock bottom and was digging fast....:-) Sartre spoke the dark side half of the truth when he said, "L'enfer, c'est les autres!" (Hell is other people!) The other half is that heaven is other people, our positive relations with family, friends and in the workplace. If we want to "get to heaven" we do need to successfully avoid the pitfalls..... Frank---who offers Dave Barry and Roy Blount Jr as 'redneck humorists' (RBJr's One Fell Soup and What Men Don't Tell Women are funny) and Up Against the Wall, Redneck Mothers as a tune from days gone by..... BTW, the dictionary describes redneck as "a white member of the Southern rural laboring class".....but I think there has been a diaspora......:-) (Since those are my ancestral roots, and Quebec is way north of the Mason-Dixon line.....) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 4 12:09:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02757 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10102; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09610 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:55:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp273.cy-net.net [208.21.195.82]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07724 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:58:09 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEDE67.6E904920@FLYLO>; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:52:23 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEDE67.6E904920@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: Hell Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:52:15 -0500 Encoding: 14 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1414 Frank said: {A quote from Sartre I have to take his word on because I can't speak French.}}}}} (Hell is other people!) I have to totally disagree with you. HELL is the recent US weather map! You know the joke, "If I owned Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas in the summer time." Stupid me, walked out on the deck bare footed, and blistered the bottom of my feet. You don't want to walk on the grass too much because it shatters. OTOH: sure makes mowing easy, just walk around the yard. martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas, Hell's better half) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 4 18:30:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA13740 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:30:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15826; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:16:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx03.together.net (mx03.together.net [204.97.120.63]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15675 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:14:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.41.56.79] (dial-79-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.79]) by mx03.together.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02897 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6B9CB31653B@agecon.uga.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:20:14 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Carol W Subject: Re: OFF/Fwd: Redneck joke Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1415 I think Anita said well what I would have if I could have.! Thanks, Anita - -and Hugh, thanks for the smiles. Carol From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 4 22:35:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA27455 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 22:35:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03364; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 22:21:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03132 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 22:18:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.85] (pm3shep3-163-124.intrepid.net [209.190.163.124]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA17745 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 22:21:01 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00b001bede8d$81d7a160$b54b2e9c@oemcomputer> References: <37A85128.3B00@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:17:27 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: What Folks are Doing was: lovelgate /2 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1416 Julie - Here at Claymont we just finished a sequential spraying on Monday. Rain, the first in over a week (and not predicted on the weather report) started with the first application of BD Compound Preparation. (This has happened to us before. The application of BC brings rain - - but only if it's the initial step in a planned sequential spraying. We only do sequentials on the dates recommended by HC, so I'd have to say that we're catching the wave with the BC right off the bat.) We're still in drought status, of course, in fact, things are as bad water-wise here as they've been in the last SEVENTY YEARS. Our neighboring farm, Jim Huyette's farm, was apparently featured this week on NationalTV news as congressmen and ag officials toured his farm, surveying the damage the drought had done to his conventional produce operation. Over here, at Claymont, our production is much lower and we are blessed by the fact that in the 19th centuray, of all the beautiful land in the then-virgin upper Shenandoah Valley, George Washington, surveyor and original Euro-owner of this (and, who, incidentally, was a master farmer) chose this site for his future home. His choice, of course, must have been heavily influenced by the two (once, alas, once..) powerful springs here on Claymont. So, we've had water for the t-tape, unlike our neighbors. Irrigation, however, does not make plants happy like a good gentle rain can. We have one of Eugene Canales Italian spading machines here. The beds for the CSA garden were worked up with the spader back in the Spring. We just harvested the end of our potatoes last week. After some hasty (and embarassing!) heavy weed pulling, we sprayed the beds with BC and (regretfully) tilled and then 'lifted' these old potato beds. (The potatoes had left our heavy clay soil very nice, damp (!) and crumbly.) The lifing creates a 3ft wide 'raised bed' out of a 5ft base. We work 3inches of finished compost into the top three inches of these beds, after splashing the surface with BC once again. After CSA distribution tomorrow, we'll plant out, in biointensive arrangements, some beautiful haberneroes a neighbor shared with us, a flat of gota kola from Jim Marquardt's place that's starting to suffer in the nursery, and about 500 assorted brassica plants, the first of our fall plantings. (Come to the Mid-Atlantic BD conference in October and chow down on some of these plants after Chef Peter Behrley has worked his unbelievable magic on them!) For this fall crop, we're putting up a little groundhog-sized e-fence in the hope of preserving more of it for outselves. "Deer Pops" will decorate the fence at affordable intervals ('deer pops' are deer baits on metallic backings. The deer are drawn to the bait, lick it and get a good shock. The hope is that they will generalize their bad experience to the surrounding area and never think of crossing the small fence). Getting in gear now for planting more onions, shallots and, eventually (after the conference...or, maybe, DURING :-), garlic, too. And getting the greenhouse ready to follow Steve Moore's suggestions on the winter production of greens for the community here and die-hard CSA members. (Steve will be sharing at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic what he has learned about 4 season passive solar greenhousing after 7 years of managing one. Steve and I are collaborating on a book about CSA planting sequences and 4 season harvesting and expect to make some headway on it during our 'down time' this December-January.) Oh, and still thinking of the TONS of organic apples still hanging in the trees here. Thanks for asking. -Allan =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 4 23:41:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA28729 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:41:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08672; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net (sys32.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.32]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08532 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:26:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.211.141.133] (wt-d6-133.wt.net [208.211.141.133]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA12350; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 22:41:12 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: lamu@pop3.wt.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6B9CB31653B@agecon.uga.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:47:49 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Andy Richker Subject: Re: OFF/Fwd: Redneck joke Cc: "Anita Graf (Staff)" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1417 Folks, This is a bit funny that we can spend so much effort complaining about an off post. It said off, hence don't read it or read it and trash it or read it and b**ch about how you didn't like reading it or you didn't agree with the nature of the joke. For me I thoroughtly enjoyed and even read them to some friends. So way to go Hugh and thanks for the addition. Come on folks, lighten up. Cheers, Andy I agree with Anita's thoughts too. Just imagine if we could all respond like this to everything that came into our life, whoaa. >OrgAgCons wrote: > >> I do not need to read jokes like that on bdnow. > >I had some thoughts about this last night. First, I don't see why >"redneck" has to be a racial slur as Allan suggests (I, as a SNIP >In sum, I just don't see the need to be so uptight about such things >and I think we should all cut Hugh and the list some slack. > >Just my thoughts on the issue. > >Anita > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 5 03:57:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA02940 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 03:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA25944; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 03:43:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA25813 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 03:40:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-044.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.144]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA32229 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:55:32 +1200 Message-ID: <001001bedf13$c61fd460$90f631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Eclipses Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:25:23 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BEDF78.436DEE20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1418 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BEDF78.436DEE20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been interested in the various views on the upcoming eclipse, and = also that there has been less postings on the list over recent weeks. = Although it is mid winter down here we are busy getting out 500 and = liquid fertiliser and preps, feeding hay and milking cows, so have = little time to offer much. However I wrote this on eclipses a few years back and thought it might = be of interest to some, given the eclipse next week. Cheers Gareth Bodle Whangarei NZ =20 Identifying the Effect of an Eclipse on Natural Life by Gareth Bodle Gareth Bodle has a Demeter farm in Northland, and is a member of the = Association's panel of farmer-advisers. It always intrigues me how as farmers in the modern world we overlook = things that have traditionally been very significant, and continue to be = acknowledged as phenomena yet no are longer considered to have any = practical relevance. In biodynamic farming here in New Zealand we take a = lot of care in working with our calendar. Often during discussion in = which people have their first contact with the calendar someone will = point out how the node brings a "dulling" of natural responses, and is = thus a time to be avoided when doing various farm activities. What is = not always discussed is just exactly what a node is, and how it relates = to an eclipse. It is in the relationship between the two that one can = find evidence of an even deeper, "hidden", phenomenon of nature; how the = impulse of certain physical events can exist as a sort of rhythmic = "echo" or "repeat" that is calculable, and thus predictable, in the = absence of the actual physically observable phenomenon.=20 Eclipses continue to be regarded with awe, although in many respects = they are today also seen as a sort of natural entertainment. = Nonetheless, the sight of the sun or moon disappearing, even partially, = and then reappearing is always breathtaking. Whilst we can argue that we = no longer place much practical significance on these events, they still = seem to have an impact on us that even today finds its way into = contemporary culture. For instance the Carly Simon hit single of the = early 1970's You're so vain (purportedly about Mick Jagger) includes = "... you went to Nova Scotia to see a total eclipse of the sun". This = same eclipse was recently used as a central element of the plot of the = gripping, but rather dark and troubled movie, Dolores Claiborne, also = set in Nova Scotia. The same theme was used in King Solomon's Mines by = nineteenth century novelist Ryder Haggard. In this instance the ability = to calculate the exact time of an eclipse in deepest darkest Africa was = portrayed as the wonders of "modern science" being used to = "out-witchdoctor" the witchdoctor of the tribe that held the adventurer = heroes captive. It was the mentality of "the white man's burden" in Africa and the = belief in the invincibility of modern science's model of the world as a = machine that led inevitably to the modern removal of such phenomena from = any natural significance, reducing it to the large scale entertainment = for the rich and famous as described by Carly Simon and portrayed in = Dolores Claiborne. The QEII will sometimes run expensive cruises that = include being at the right coordinates to get the optimum view of an = eclipse. The moon travels in its orbit around the earth at a 5o 8' angle to the = path of the earth's orbit around the sun, the latter being known as the = ecliptic, or the ecliptic plane, because it is on this plane that = eclipses occur.=20 This is why it is possible to have new moon and full moon (when the = earth, moon, and sun are nearly in a straight line) without the earth = and the moon getting in each others way. The points where the moon's = orbit intersects the ecliptic (the nodes) move progressively around the = moon's orbit. Consequently every now and again these points coincide = with full and new moon (diagram 3) causing an eclipse. To what extent = the eclipse is visible to us depends on our relative position on the = earth's surface and its daily rotation. Apart from the physical disappearance of the sun or the moon during an = eclipse one can also notice how all the birds and insects go quiet. = These are the things we can see or hear. Would it follow that other = aspects of living processes also go "quiet" during an eclipse? If we = bother to think about it, biodynamics tends to take this for granted, = yet we do not take care to consciously explore and test the assumption. = Whilst we are perfectly aware of the physical description of all the = processes that go on in nature such as plant growth and an animal's = metabolism, on the surface they are apparently "invisible" to casual = observation.=20 An opportunity to examine the effect of an eclipse on the "invisible" = processes and compare them to the visible effects arises in Theodor = Schwenk's book Sensitive Chaos. Schwenk describes inner surfaces of = moving water as "...open to its surroundings and to all the stimuli and = formative impulses from without....indeed it is so sensitive that not = only does it react to changes in its immediate surroundings, but also to = the delicate, imponderable influences of the planetary universe." = Schwenk goes on to demonstrate the sensitive nature of water by = describing an experiment done at a full eclipse of the sun. He writes: = "During the course of the day at regular intervals - say every quarter = hour - a different vessel filled with water is shaken rhythmically for a = short time. Each time this is done a kind of sense organ, which closes = again when the movement ceases, is opened to the momentary happenings in = the heavens. And at each time a somewhat different situation in the = universe is imprinted upon the water." And so he conducted his = experiment, shaking a vessel of water through the progress of an = eclipse, through the period of the moon moving in front of the sun, and = then moving away again. Thus Schwenk contended that he had captured a = "picture of an eclipse" in a row of bottles on a shelf! But how to = physically draw the picture on a piece of paper? Schwenk set about = germinating wheat grains in the water, setting them all out at the same = time. The leaf blades of the germinating wheat grew to different lengths = in different bottles. By graphing the lengths of the wheat blades in the = different bottles he was able to draw a picture of the eclipse as = captured in his bottles of water - and expressed through the growth = processes of the wheat plants. This picture mirrors exactly the observations we make of the visible = responses - that is, the noise and activity of animals, birds and = insects. This allows us to conclude, if we choose, that the time of an = eclipse is a period of dulling of all life impulses for a short time. In = biodynamics this is part of the wholistic model of the interplay of the = wider cosmos with living nature. It is also an opportunity to examine = the definition of the "invisible" being not something mystical and = fantastic, but simply that which exists, but is hidden from view. And = with imagination, innovation, and science the invisible can be "seen". Eclipses occur at the points when the full or new moon occur on the = ecliptic. These points are the nodes, and in everday language every time = the moon passes through the ecliptic is also known as the node. We could = describe the node as not only occurring at an eclipse, but as being = every other time there would be an eclipse if it were full or new moon. = In a sense the node is like an "echo" of an eclipse, repeating itself, = as an echo of the physical event after it has passed. Interestingly, if = we wish to test this again by trying to make a physical picture of the = "invisible" we can turn to the work of Maria Thun who has planted = radishes repeatedly through the course of a node and obtained the same = growth patterns as Theodor Schwenk did with his wheat.=20 If you choose to think that this is not just a coincidence you have the = opportunity to explore the possibility that impulses in nature can exist = without physical connection to the observable phenomena, which is part = of the concept that nothing in nature exists in isolation. Further, it = is a chance to examine whether or not we can confidently, in our own = minds, take on board the concept that the relationship between the = distant planetary environment and our immediate natural farm or garden = environment is one of being two elements of the one wider "process" = rather than simply one of cause-and-effect. Do we regard things as just = sky and just earth or should we view them as part of a whole?=20 I feel it is important to examine these questions consciously, = ourselves, rather than take for granted that it is "right" because it is = written in the calendar, or some one told us and we "think" they know = more than us. The traditional farmer of old worked in this environment = with instinct. Today we tend to evaluate matters ourselves as = "management decisions" even when they involve such wholistic ideas, and = so it is important to listen to Rudolf Steiner's warning about not = simply "having faith in merely the words themselves." References: Schwenk, Theodor, Sensitive Chaos, Rudolf Steiner Press, London, 1965. Steiner, Rufdolf, Agriculture (a course of lectures), Bio Dynamic = Farming and Gardening Association (Inc.), Kimberton, Pa., 1993.=20 Thun, Maria, Work on the Land and the Constellations, Lanthorn Press, = Sussex, 1990. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BEDF78.436DEE20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have been interested in the = various views on=20 the upcoming eclipse, and also that there has been less postings on the = list=20 over recent weeks. Although it is mid winter down here we are busy = getting out=20 500 and liquid fertiliser and preps, feeding hay and milking cows, so = have=20 little time to offer much.
However I wrote this on eclipses a = few years=20 back and thought it might be of interest to some, given the eclipse next = week.
 
Cheers
Gareth Bodle
Whangarei = NZ  
 

Identifying the Effect of an Eclipse on Natural Life

by Gareth Bodle

Gareth Bodle has a Demeter farm in Northland, and is a member of the=20 Association's panel of farmer-advisers.

 

It always intrigues me how as farmers in the modern world we overlook = things=20 that have traditionally been very significant, and continue to be = acknowledged=20 as phenomena yet no are longer considered to have any practical = relevance. In=20 biodynamic farming here in New Zealand we take a lot of care in working = with our=20 calendar. Often during discussion in which people have their first = contact with=20 the calendar someone will point out how the node brings a = "dulling" of=20 natural responses, and is thus a time to be avoided when doing various = farm=20 activities. What is not always discussed is just exactly what a node is, = and how=20 it relates to an eclipse. It is in the relationship between the two that = one can=20 find evidence of an even deeper, "hidden", phenomenon of = nature; how=20 the impulse of certain physical events can exist as a sort of rhythmic=20 "echo" or "repeat" that is calculable, and thus = predictable,=20 in the absence of the actual physically observable phenomenon.

Eclipses continue to be regarded with awe, although in many respects = they are=20 today also seen as a sort of natural entertainment. Nonetheless, the = sight of=20 the sun or moon disappearing, even partially, and then reappearing is = always=20 breathtaking. Whilst we can argue that we no longer place much practical = significance on these events, they still seem to have an impact on us = that even=20 today finds its way into contemporary culture. For instance the Carly = Simon hit=20 single of the early 1970's You're so vain (purportedly about Mick = Jagger)=20 includes "... you went to Nova Scotia to see a total eclipse of the = sun". This same eclipse was recently used as a central element of = the plot=20 of the gripping, but rather dark and troubled movie, Dolores = Claiborne,=20 also set in Nova Scotia. The same theme was used in King Solomon's = Mines=20 by nineteenth century novelist Ryder Haggard. In this instance the = ability to=20 calculate the exact time of an eclipse in deepest darkest Africa was = portrayed=20 as the wonders of "modern science" being used to=20 "out-witchdoctor" the witchdoctor of the tribe that held the=20 adventurer heroes captive.

It was the mentality of "the white man's burden" in Africa = and the=20 belief in the invincibility of modern science's model of the world as a = machine=20 that led inevitably to the modern removal of such phenomena from any = natural=20 significance, reducing it to the large scale entertainment for the rich = and=20 famous as described by Carly Simon and portrayed in Dolores = Claiborne.=20 The QEII will sometimes run expensive cruises that include being at the = right=20 coordinates to get the optimum view of an eclipse.

The moon travels in its orbit around the earth at a 5o 8' = angle to=20 the path of the earth's orbit around the sun, the latter being known as = the=20 ecliptic, or the ecliptic plane, because it is on this plane that = eclipses=20 occur.

 

This is why it is possible to have new moon and full moon (when the = earth,=20 moon, and sun are nearly in a straight line) without the earth and the = moon=20 getting in each others way. The points where the moon's orbit intersects = the=20 ecliptic (the nodes) move progressively around the moon's orbit. = Consequently=20 every now and again these points coincide with full and new moon = (diagram 3)=20 causing an eclipse. To what extent the eclipse is visible to us depends = on our=20 relative position on the earth's surface and its daily rotation.

Apart from the physical disappearance of the sun or the moon during = an=20 eclipse one can also notice how all the birds and insects go quiet. = These are=20 the things we can see or hear. Would it follow that other aspects of = living=20 processes also go "quiet" during an eclipse? If we bother to = think=20 about it, biodynamics tends to take this for granted, yet we do not take = care to=20 consciously explore and test the assumption. Whilst we are perfectly = aware of=20 the physical description of all the processes that go on in nature such = as plant=20 growth and an animal's metabolism, on the surface they are apparently=20 "invisible" to casual observation.

An opportunity to examine the effect of an eclipse on the=20 "invisible" processes and compare them to the visible effects = arises=20 in Theodor Schwenk's book Sensitive Chaos. Schwenk describes = inner=20 surfaces of moving water as "...open to its surroundings and to all = the=20 stimuli and formative impulses from without....indeed it is so sensitive = that=20 not only does it react to changes in its immediate surroundings, but = also to the=20 delicate, imponderable influences of the planetary universe." = Schwenk goes=20 on to demonstrate the sensitive nature of water by describing an = experiment done=20 at a full eclipse of the sun. He writes: "During the course of the = day at=20 regular intervals - say every quarter hour - a different vessel filled = with=20 water is shaken rhythmically for a short time. Each time this is done a = kind of=20 sense organ, which closes again when the movement ceases, is opened to = the=20 momentary happenings in the heavens. And at each time a somewhat = different=20 situation in the universe is imprinted upon the water." And so he = conducted=20 his experiment, shaking a vessel of water through the progress of an = eclipse,=20 through the period of the moon moving in front of the sun, and then = moving away=20 again. Thus Schwenk contended that he had captured a "picture of an = eclipse" in a row of bottles on a shelf! But how to physically draw = the=20 picture on a piece of paper? Schwenk set about germinating wheat grains = in the=20 water, setting them all out at the same time. The leaf blades of the = germinating=20 wheat grew to different lengths in different bottles. By graphing the = lengths of=20 the wheat blades in the different bottles he was able to draw a picture = of the=20 eclipse as captured in his bottles of water - and expressed through the = growth=20 processes of the wheat plants.

 

This picture mirrors exactly the observations we make of the visible=20 responses - that is, the noise and activity of animals, birds and = insects. This=20 allows us to conclude, if we choose, that the time of an eclipse is a = period of=20 dulling of all life impulses for a short time. In biodynamics this is = part of=20 the wholistic model of the interplay of the wider cosmos with living = nature. It=20 is also an opportunity to examine the definition of the = "invisible"=20 being not something mystical and fantastic, but simply that which = exists, but is=20 hidden from view. And with imagination, innovation, and science the = invisible=20 can be "seen".

Eclipses occur at the points when the full or new moon occur on the = ecliptic.=20 These points are the nodes, and in everday language every time the moon = passes=20 through the ecliptic is also known as the node. We could describe the = node as=20 not only occurring at an eclipse, but as being every other time there = would be=20 an eclipse if it were full or new moon. In a sense the node is like an=20 "echo" of an eclipse, repeating itself, as an echo of the = physical=20 event after it has passed. Interestingly, if we wish to test this again = by=20 trying to make a physical picture of the "invisible" we can = turn to=20 the work of Maria Thun who has planted radishes repeatedly through the = course of=20 a node and obtained the same growth patterns as Theodor Schwenk did with = his=20 wheat.

If you choose to think that this is not just a coincidence you have = the=20 opportunity to explore the possibility that impulses in nature can exist = without=20 physical connection to the observable phenomena, which is part of the = concept=20 that nothing in nature exists in isolation. Further, it is a chance to = examine=20 whether or not we can confidently, in our own minds, take on board the = concept=20 that the relationship between the distant planetary environment and our=20 immediate natural farm or garden environment is one of being two = elements of the=20 one wider "process" rather than simply one of = cause-and-effect. Do we=20 regard things as just sky and just earth or should we view them as part = of a=20 whole?

I feel it is important to examine these questions consciously, = ourselves,=20 rather than take for granted that it is "right" because it is = written=20 in the calendar, or some one told us and we "think" they know = more=20 than us. The traditional farmer of old worked in this environment with = instinct.=20 Today we tend to evaluate matters ourselves as "management = decisions"=20 even when they involve such wholistic ideas, and so it is important to = listen to=20 Rudolf Steiner's warning about not simply "having faith in merely = the words=20 themselves."

References:

Schwenk, Theodor, Sensitive Chaos, Rudolf Steiner Press, = London,=20 1965.

Steiner, Rufdolf, Agriculture (a course of lectures), Bio = Dynamic=20 Farming and Gardening Association (Inc.), Kimberton, Pa., 1993.

Thun, Maria, Work on the Land and the Constellations, Lanthorn = Press,=20 Sussex, 1990.

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BEDF78.436DEE20-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 5 04:38:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA03394 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 04:38:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA27009; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 04:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand4.global.net.uk (sand4.global.net.uk [194.126.80.248]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA26938 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 04:22:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p1bs03a01.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.131.28] helo=raithby.globalnet.co.uk) by sand4.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11CIpe-0003FZ-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:24:59 +0100 Message-ID: <37A6FAAD.378D6A5C@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 15:20:30 +0100 From: ALISON EADES X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF / Fw: GEN8-2 References: <002001bedd5b$6cf1c920$8e9dafc7@333> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1419 Michael It would be good if the Canadian farmer, Schmeiser, could launch proceedings to take Monsanto to court for infecting his crop with seed that they are insisting belong to them. Monsanto taking him to court is not only criminal in itself, it is totally back to front! Alison Michael Roboz wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Wolfson > To: info@natural-law.ca > Date: Monday, August 02, 1999 7:29 PM > Subject: GEN8-2 > > >July 30, 1999 > > > >PARIS, Reuters [WN] via NewsEdge Corporation : France this week said it was > >willing to pay up to 10 million francs for research on the possible impact > >and risks of genetically modified (GM) crops. > > > >Announcing a request for proposals, France's Education Ministry said it was > >looking for studies geared toward transgenic plants used in agriculture and > >their eventual impact on both the environment and human and animal health. > > > >The ministry said the goal of the research was to produce specifications on > >which genetically modified crops were acceptable in terms of security and > >also a "code of conduct" setting forth rules on usage of GM crops. > > > >The ministry said it wanted the research to focus not just on the direct > >effects of GM crops but also the indirect effects, such as changes in > >farming practices or industry organisation tied to the introduction of one > >or more GM crops. > > > >...... > > > >Sunday Telegraph Sunday 1 August 1999 > >GM killer bugs developed as defence against germ warfare By Joe Murphy, > >Political Editor > >Porton Down faces criminal inquiry into airman's death > > > >THE Ministry of Defence has disclosed that it is creating lethal > >genetically modified organisms in a secret programme to prepare defences > >against a new era of germ warfare. > > > >Tests of the potential of "GM supergerms" are being conducted at Porton > >Down, the headquarters of the Government's chemical and biological defence > >establishment. The research uses similar genetic engineering techniques to > >those that to create GM foods sold in supermarkets. It was launched to > >study the implications should such technology be developed for weapons of > >mass destruction by an enemy power. > > > >The theoretical threat posed by GM germs has alarmed the MoD. Genetic > >techniques can make biological weapons more dangerous to humans and less > >easy to detect or counter It is already feasible to use genetic > >engineering to introduce a lethal toxin into a pathogen - an organism that > >attacks humans - to increase its killing potential. Organisms can also be > >modified to resist antidotes. > > > >In future it may be possible to wipe out an army with mutant germs that > >would then be made benign by a genetic flaw, enabling an enemy force to > >invade in safety. An enemy may be more ready to deploy such "controllable" > >GM weapons than existing organisms such as anthrax. Ultimately, it may be > >possible to develop an "ethnic destruction" germ, that is, an organism > >that would attack the genes of a particular race. > > > > > >In January a study by the British Medical Association warned that a plague > >or toxin designed to kill specific racial groups could be only five to 10 > >years away. Britain has signed treaties prohibiting the creation of > >biological weapons for military purposes. The sole reason for the research > >at Porton Down is to develop protection measures against any threat posed > >to the population or Servicemen. > > > >An MoD spokesman said: "To perform this task our scientists have to be at > >the cutting edge of biological scientific knowledge, including the > >techniques of genetics." The Government has kept the experimental research > >secret but The Telegraph has learned that it has been going on for at > >least five years > > > >=============== > >2) Sunday Telegraph Sunday 1 August 1999 - GM soya milk gives children > >herpes, senior surgeon tells the Government > > -By Rajeev Syal > > > >A LEADING British surgeon is to give evidence to the Government that > >genetically modified soya milk triggered a herpes-related virus in her > >daughter. > > > >The surgeon, from south-west London, will explain that cold sores > >repeatedly erupted on her two-year-old's face when she regularly drank the > >GM product and immediately cleared when she stopped. > > > > > >The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food said last week that it > >would investigate her claims. The revelations coincide with worries > >expressed by the Prince of Wales earlier this year and a number of leading > >geneticists who believe that some GM products can trigger viruses in > >humans. > > > >The woman, who wishes to remain anonymous to protect her daughter said she > >wants to make sure that a similar situation is not repeated with other > >children. She said: "I want the Government to look into this because I saw > >the change in my daughter - as soon as she was taken off the GM milk, her > >health dramatically improved. I, and my GP, have not found any other > >reasons why she became ill. My family previously ate GM products without > >worrying - but now we do not." > > > >Tests have showed that the child is not allergic to soya milk, which her > >mother began feeding her in February 1998, when she was just a year old > >because she had developed an allergy to dairy products. The girl > >immediately began developing large cold sores which did not respond to > >treatment. She was drinking about four pints of the milk every day - and > >the sores were getting worse. > > > >Her mother, a 38-year-old plastic surgeon in a London hospital, said: "I > >became aware that she was not getting better. There seemed to be three > >large, weeping sores on her face at any one time." So she spoke to a > >friend - who is also a hospital-based geneticist - who warned her that > >critics of GM products are worried that they could provoke viral > >infections. > > > >She cut the amount of soya milk her daughter was drinking to half a pint a > >day and the sores cleared up overnight. She said: "The circumstantial > >evidence was there for all to see." Critics of GM foods believe that > >"virus promoters" - pieces of DNA in plants that can control activity in > >its genes - could be responsible for triggering the herpes virus. But > >other experts disagreed. > > > >Prof Jim Dunwell, a plant biotechnologist from the University of Reading, > >who has been involved in producing GM plants, said it is highly unlikely > >that plant viruses could provoke reactions in human beings. He said: "It > >sounds highly unlikely that this child has had her herpes provoked by soya > >milk. It is more likely to be an allergic reaction." > > > >...... > > > >July 30, 1999 - Japan Drafts Law On Labeling Gene-Altered Food > > > >TOKYO (Nikkei) - Japan's Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries > >settled Friday on a draft version of a law governing the labeling of food > >containing genetically modified organisms (GMOs), The Nihon Keizai Shimbun > >Saturday reported in its morning edition, citing ministry sources. > > > >Soybeans, corn or potatoes grown with gene-altering technology and > >processed products using them will have to be labeled as such. The same > >rule will be applied if the presence of GMOs or altered protein can be > >detected. Under the law, which is scheduled to take effect in April 2000, > >the majority of foods containing plant protein, including tofu and corn > >snacks, will have to bear such labels. > > > >Concerns over mandatory labeling have been expressed by food producers, > >which are worried that costs will rise, and by the U.S., a major exporter > >of gene-altered crops. The aim of the law is to protect consumer choice, > >however, according to the Nikkei story. Under the draft version, the > >requirements will be limited to genetically altered soybeans, corn and > >potatoes because those three now account for the bulk of gene-altered > >crops. Japan relies on U.S. imports of soybeans and corn. > > > >Food companies using soybeans, corn or potatoes imported from the U.S. will > >have to test their products for genetic modifications and label the goods > >if necessary. If a product's makeup cannot easily be determined because it > >contains unmodified foods mixed with GMO ingredients, the producer may have > >to label it as unable to be classified, suggesting it contains GMOs. Highly > >processed products such as soy sauce and soybean oil are not expected to > >require labeling. The ministry will issue a list of any companies lax in > >meeting the labeling requirements and will give them instructions on how to > >revise their practices. > > > >................ > >Financial Times Tuesday July 13 1999 MONSANTO: The seeds of dispute > > > >A landmark trial in Canada will set a precedent for Monsanto's ability to > >protect its patents on genetically modified crops, says Scott Morrison > > > >Monsanto, the US life sciences group, has been having a trying time of > >late. Efforts to promote genetically modified foods in Europe have > >backfired. In England, environmentalists have sabotaged a test site. French > >farmers have staged protests against the import of GM crops. > > > >Back in North America, where the use of GM seeds is more widespread, > >Monsanto is battling an altogether different threat: how to prevent farmers > >from obtaining its patented seeds illegally. The company says that unless > >patent protection laws are enforced, it will have thrown billions of > >dollars of investment down the drain. > > > >In a landmark case, due to be heard by a Canadian judge next month, > >Monsanto is taking a 68-year-old farmer to court after he was discovered to > >be growing a variety of Monsanto's genetically modified canola (rapeseed) > >without its consent. > > > >The last thing Percy Schmeiser expected after a lifetime of farming was to > >be caught in a legal battle with one of the world's leading proponents of > >agricultural biotechnology. To hear Mr Schmeiser tell it, the case is about > >privacy and a farmer's right to choose. > > > >He says the wind blew Monsanto seed into his fields, which are planted with > >conventional canola. Because it is impossible - other than by genetic > >testing - to tell the difference between a normal and a GM canola plant, Mr > >Schmeiser says he was not even aware that GM canola was growing in his > >property. He does not see why he should be penalised for an accident of > >"mother nature". > > > >The Canadian press has been largely sympathetic to Mr Schmeiser's defence, > >often portraying him as an ageing David battling a Goliath of the > >agribusiness industry. And while Monsanto may be big, it is vulnerable. The > >trial could set a precedent for the degree of control Monsanto and other > >biotechnology companies exercise over how their products are used by > >customers and others. > > > >Monsanto says the dispute is a simple case of patent infringement, although > >the stakes are extraordinarily high. The company says it must maintain > >strict control over the use of its technology in order to recoup its > >multi-billion dollar research and development budget. > > > >Monsanto also argues it must level the playing field for farmers who pay > >the company's technology fee when they purchase GM seeds from licensed > >dealers. These farmers sign a "Technology Use Agreement" that requires them > >to pay a fee to Monsanto based on the acreage they have planted. > > > >Moreover, farmers cannot save seed in order to plant the following year's > >crop. In order to ensure compliance, the agreement gives Monsanto the right > >to audit farmers' fields, or take samples, for three years after the seeds > >are bought. > > > >Mr Schmeiser is one of about 600 farmers in Canada and the US accused by > >Monsanto of infringing the agreement. Most of these farmers purchased > >Monsanto's seeds and signed the agreement, but Mr Schmeiser's case is > >different because he never bought Monsanto's GM seeds and says the company > >has no right to his property. > > > >The Schmeiser dispute is therefore an important test of whether Monsanto > >will be able to secure patent protection for its seeds beyond its immediate > >circle of agricultural customers. > > > >Mr Schmeiser says the seeds of the dispute were blown into his field in > >1997. As farmers customarily do, Mr Schmeiser saved a portion of his 1997 > >crop to use as seed in 1998. He argues that if he was in fact growing > >genetically modified GM canola in 1998, it was accidentally recycled. > > > >A key part of the trial, therefore, will hinge on how much of Mr > >Schmeiser's crop was genetically modified, and whether that proportion > >could be explained by wind-borne contamination or cross-pollination. > > > >Monsanto acknowledges that cross-pollination does occur, but it alleges Mr > >Schmeiser "obtained" seeds. The company is demanding that Mr Schmeiser give > >up all GM seeds or crops in his possession. Monsanto also wants a federal > >judge in Canada to impose unspecified punitive and exemplary damages. > > > >But with billions of dollars in research and development at stake, Monsanto > >has also been prepared to employ some tough tactics to track down farmers > >who violate its agreement. > > > >A lot of controversy has focused on the company's toll-free "tip line" set > >up to enable farmers to report on others who violate Monsanto's > >usage terms. Mr Schmeiser also alleges that investigators working for > >Monsanto trespassed in his field to collect samples of his crop. "Monsanto > >has > >put the fear of the Lord into people here," he says. > > > >Monsanto acknowledges that "some questions exist around one incident," but > >maintains that it does not condone any illegal practices and that all > >evidence collected to support its case against Mr Schmeiser was obtained > >legally. > > > >Monsanto could do without the adverse publicity. Already, it is under fire > >for requiring farmers to buy their seed from the company every year. > >Farmers around the world have traditionally saved a portion of >their > >harvest in order to plant the following year's crop - and an estimated > >three quarters of the world's farmers still do so. Mr Schmeiser accuses > >Monsanto of wanting nothing less than to dominate farmers and the industry. > >"They want control of the seed supply," he says. > > > >Ray Mowling, a vice-president for Monsanto Canada, acknowledges that his > >firm's practices have introduced a change in farming culture, but he says > >the company must recoup its investment and that farmers are free to choose > >whether they want to abide by Monsanto's terms. > > > >An estimated 70 per cent of the canola grown in Canada this year will be > >genetically modified, as will some 50 per cent of the soybean and cotton > >crops grown in the US. Mr Schmeiser's case, however, raises concern that > >farmers might not always have those options, either because their crops > >could be cross-pollinated or because there could eventually be > >fewer seed suppliers. > > > >"There is growing nervousness that there may not always be a choice," says > >Sally Rutherford, executive director of the Canadian Federation of > >Agriculture, which represents more than 200,000 Canadian farmers. > > > >At Monsanto, Mr Mowling says the company is working harder to demonstrate > >that its technology works, resulting in better crops and better food. But > >unless it can defend its patents, it will be out of business. However > >unpopular, the case against Mr Schmeiser is seen as critical to the > >company's future. > > > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is > >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > > > >_________________________________________________________ > >Richard Wolfson, PhD > >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, > >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term > >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, > >500 Wilbrod Street > >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 > >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 > >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > > > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic > >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous > >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering > >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to > >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. > >__________________________________________________________ > >__________________________________________________________ > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 5 04:38:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA03402 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 04:38:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA27057; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 04:25:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand4.global.net.uk (sand4.global.net.uk [194.126.80.248]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA26943 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 04:22:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p1bs03a01.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.131.28] helo=raithby.globalnet.co.uk) by sand4.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11CIpj-0003Fk-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:25:03 +0100 Message-ID: <37A7014D.89546871@raithby.globalnet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 15:48:46 +0100 From: ALISON EADES X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF Re: AGNIHOTRA: Solar Eclipse and new moon Aug. 11 References: <199907270000.UAA23253@loki.intrepid.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id EAA26945 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1420 Jeanne Thank you for your contribution on the current astrology - I am always fascinated by its translation into events and feelings on Earth. I am surprised though at your title and at the powerful negativity that comes through in your article. I believe this is a magnificent time of change - after all we all have probably done double somersaults to be on Earth at this time - and the benefits (which I think you allude to) could be a relief to all of humankind. I, for one, cannot regard this as the Summer from Hell. This time is truly Heaven-sent and offers as much chance for movement towards the Light as it may do for 'catastrophes'. I won't 'duck for cover', I shall do my utmost to remain centred and open and drink in everything that happens and to help provide as much stability as I am able as we shift. I like the thought of the 'soul becoming more active' and when you talk of the beginning of the life of the soul. Do you have any more thoughts on what this means? I haven't read Esoteric Astrology - being a non-astrologer do you think I could still learn from it? Best wishes Alison Jeanne Mozier wrote: > Folks > > Here's my article on the Grand Fixed Cross from the current issue of Welcome to planet Earth magazine. > > Jeanne Mozier > > THE SUMMER FROM HELL > Jeanne Mozier > > In the rarified world of astrology as the vocabulary of the Divine Plan for human evolution, it is nearly impossible to pinpoint dramatic shifts to the day, week, month, year, decade or even century. Yet here, in the opening months of the unprecedented time of Pluto in Sagittarius, Neptune and Uranus in Aquarius, the old patterns are gone. It seems probable that this final summer of the millennium marks a key initiation and the birth of global human. > > Pack wisely for the summer from Hell. Vacation tickets in Œ99 are non-refundable. > > The astrological picture of this summer is dominated by one central fact. Not the often called ³eclipse of the century² but the Grand Fixed Cross of the which the eclipse -- or actually both summer eclipses -- are focal points. > > Before marking the calendar of July and August with daily details of flames and black holes, let¹s address the underlying meaning. It makes the terror easier to bear to know that this is not Armageddon, but rather a difficult birth passage. We also need to understand that the Fixed Cross appears because we invoke it. This crisis of reorientation is what all those on the path of light have long sought, teaching us the truth of ³watch what you ask for.² > > According to the blueprint outlined in Alice Bailey¹s ³Esoteric Astrology,² the mysteries of the Fixed Cross that we begin to explore in early July are the essential initiation for humanity when man steps off the ordinary path of evolution and begins the life of the soul. It is an experience of pain and suffering where humanity is crucified on the cross of matter. The crisis is filled with images of being torn by the Bull, taming the Lion and being brought to his knees by the Serpent before the stream of life cleanses the muck and reveals the glowing path of the soul. > > The zodiacal energies involved in this aspect of ultimate cosmic tension are, by definition, the four fixed signs: Taurus, Leo, Scorpio and Aquarius. Taurus and Scorpio bring us to illumination through the conflict of greed and anger. Leo introduces both the danger and help of will while Aquarius targets concrete science as a player. > > By the time the cross is exact, in mid-August, every planet in our astrological heaven is in one of the these four except for Pluto which at 8 Sagittarius, is within allowable orb. The power is unavoidable. The good news is that the appearance of the Fixed Cross as the dominant configuration of Œ99 means that the soul is becoming more active. > > I mark the beginning of the summer from hell with the entry of Mars into Scorpio on July 4, a mythically charged day for the United States. For most of the next two months, the planets move inexorably into the ever tightening Grand Fixed Cross. On the 7th, the galactic environment makes it possible to unearth the underlying meanings and mysteries as described above. > > Confusion reigns for at least half the summer as the second retrograde Mercury period of the year begins on July 12 along with the Cancer New Moon. Travel plans will most certainly suffer as sensitive souls are scurrying to spend the time of reorientation in safe places connected to their tribes. The key to survival is centering yourself in your human connections. > > On July 14, Mars makes its third square of the year to Neptune and the madness begins in earnest continuing through the end of August. This demoralizing aspect refers back to the previous two squares at the end of January and late April. It is the first of the major aspects of the Fixed Cross to move into place. Not only are Scorpio and Aquarius involved but so too is Leo through the placement of the moon. > > Three days later we experience the second major aspect of the cross and the first of three Saturn squares to Uranus over the next 18 months. Duck for cover! The effects of this aspect -- whether global or personal -- are extreme tension, revolution, radical action, breaking out of limiting patterns. Expect mmajor upheavals in Russia, South America and Afghanistan and any difficult relationships or work situations. The Saturn/Uranus conjunction in 1988 that is meeting its first challenge with this square was a seminal one reshaping both the map and the psyche of our world. Coming on the heels of the Mars/Neptune aspect, we can expect that lies coming home to roost will destroy existing situations. > > Two days during the hellish summer offer a thin ray of hope. Grace under pressure is the gift of July 18 and August 5. Take advantage of the brief moments of relief to indulge yourself and tune into the soothing energy. You¹ll need the rejuvenation. > > By the 21st, the horror show returns to the screen and we meet the third defining square, this time Jupiter to Neptune. The reality check of Saturn in Taurus is supplemented with Jupiter, and spiritual delusions and false optimism are the grave danger. The world will meet someone with an answer (to Y2K perhaps) that will prove to be one more big lie. Anger, conflict and accidents are the pattern of the day. > > By the 26th, Mercury, Neptune, Jupiter and the Sun are involved in a T-square pattern as the Fixed Cross gets tighter. Arrogance about big ideas and total disregard for details and facts promise confusion and disruption. > > The ever-tightening Grand Fixed Cross receives an enormous inflow of reorienting energy with the beginning of the eclipse cycle on the 28th. Both Uranus and Neptune are involved in this Leo/Aquarius lunar eclipse. System breakdowns are expected to be the hallmark of this entire period. > > On August 5, Mercury stations at 29 degrees Cancer and begins to move forward. This degree was highly sensitized in 1997 and Œ98 by the ³end of old time² and encodes the period to gather and secure all that you want to take with you into the next millennium. > > More pieces of the Grand Fixed Cross move into place on the 7th making it a harsh and explosive day, impulsive, rebellious and belligerent. Energy is very high. Old stuff is disappearing in nanoseconds. The scale of the Fixed Cross indicates that much of the effect will be global. While war is possible, it seems more likely that the events will be in an economic/technological arena. Whatever the scenarios, they will be shocking. > > Examining the eclipse of the 11th, we can expect a revolution and explosive reaction to limitation in some part of the world. Tracking the long path of the eclipse, we can nominate as prime candidates both the Balkans and India/Pakistan where a nuclear exchange is a horrifying possibility. Individuals should examine where the highlighted 18th degree occurs in their personal star patterns, although the mid-degrees of all fixed signs are at risk. And remember, the effects of this eclipse could last as long as a year. > > The players in this Grand Fixed Cross almost guarantee that lies will be told about whatever crises are occurring. Confusion reigns supreme although high level insight is possible. > > Schedule your dramatic end-of-the-world party on the 15th when Venus enters Leo bringing dressy attire to the Grand Fixed Cross. And don¹t put the party hats away until the 20th when the dust clears and the celebration can resume. > > With the moon¹s entry into Scorpio on the 18th, ALL the planets are involved in the Grand Fixed Cross. Only Pluto is in a non-fixed sign; however, it is only 8 degrees away and more importantly, it stations and moves direct today making it intensely powerful. The explosive power plays of this day cannot be overstated. With Mercury trining Pluto today, the thoughts are profound and addressed to the deepest meaning and mysteries of life. ³Why is this happening?² will be the question of the time. > > Thanks to the esoteric revelations of the Fixed Cross and the intuitive energies of the time, we have important clues. We know this is the cross of light and the effect is liberation. The fires of God are said to emanate from the Fixed Cross and we can expect this to be a literal impact of the aspect as its reflects on Earth. Only when the influence of all the four arms of the cross has produced an effect is a transition of consciousness made. Although there was a brief preview of the Fixed Cross effect on April 22 and 23, there is no averting this crisis by anticipating the effect. Some steps can only be taken in real time. > > The short answer: this is the point of crisis in the initiation of the Fixed Cross. The soul is breaking out. > > By the 24th when Jupiter stations and moves retrograde in Taurus, the aftershocks begin. We have survived but there will undoubtedly be big bills to pay. Sexual tension, miscommunication and pessimism round out a rather unpleasant day. After a few calming and peaceful days, the financial and earth-related aftershocks are notched up again when Saturn stations and moves retrograde in Taurus on the 29th. Air out the fear of the past month but be prepared for great conflicts probably between those who see technology as cause of all the recent troubles and those who think it holds the answer. This is a day of profound reality checks. The essence of the Fixed Cross is to exhaust material desire and remove the needs of the physical nature as dominant for humanity. This sounds good in the abstract but remember that it may take significant horror and destruction to reorient humanity from its obsessions with the material world. > > As September begins and the summer becomes a bad dream, we find positive and creative energy flooding human consciousness throughout the rest of the year. The Divine Plan begins to take form. Only in mid-month do we face an urgent reminder that we have passed through the crucifixion of the Fixed Cross and that systemic awareness has been introduced. The dark clouds roll out of the way by Fall Equinox when Heaven and Earth are in balance. What is revealed by the dominant Aquariun arm of the cross as we slide into the new Millennium is the beauty of group life, the job description of man as world server, and a vision of the Endless Way. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 5 10:35:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08816 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:35:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10109; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:21:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09715 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:18:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d149.infoserve.net [199.175.157.149]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA01763 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 07:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000c01bedf4e$50d78fa0$959dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: OFF / Fw: GEN8-2 Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 07:25:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1421 I agree. I hope he does. It is not his fault that he inadvertantly saved some GE seed. M. -----Original Message----- From: ALISON EADES To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, August 05, 1999 1:31 AM Subject: Re: OFF / Fw: GEN8-2 >Michael > >It would be good if the Canadian farmer, Schmeiser, could launch proceedings to >take Monsanto to court for infecting his crop with seed that they are insisting >belong to them. Monsanto taking him to court is not only criminal in itself, it >is totally back to front! > >Alison > >Michael Roboz wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard Wolfson >> To: info@natural-law.ca >> Date: Monday, August 02, 1999 7:29 PM >> Subject: GEN8-2 >> >> >July 30, 1999 >> > >> >PARIS, Reuters [WN] via NewsEdge Corporation : France this week said it was >> >willing to pay up to 10 million francs for research on the possible impact >> >and risks of genetically modified (GM) crops. >> > >> >Announcing a request for proposals, France's Education Ministry said it was >> >looking for studies geared toward transgenic plants used in agriculture and >> >their eventual impact on both the environment and human and animal health. >> > >> >The ministry said the goal of the research was to produce specifications on >> >which genetically modified crops were acceptable in terms of security and >> >also a "code of conduct" setting forth rules on usage of GM crops. >> > >> >The ministry said it wanted the research to focus not just on the direct >> >effects of GM crops but also the indirect effects, such as changes in >> >farming practices or industry organisation tied to the introduction of one >> >or more GM crops. >> > >> >...... >> > >> >Sunday Telegraph Sunday 1 August 1999 >> >GM killer bugs developed as defence against germ warfare By Joe Murphy, >> >Political Editor >> >Porton Down faces criminal inquiry into airman's death >> > >> >THE Ministry of Defence has disclosed that it is creating lethal >> >genetically modified organisms in a secret programme to prepare defences >> >against a new era of germ warfare. >> > >> >Tests of the potential of "GM supergerms" are being conducted at Porton >> >Down, the headquarters of the Government's chemical and biological defence >> >establishment. The research uses similar genetic engineering techniques to >> >those that to create GM foods sold in supermarkets. It was launched to >> >study the implications should such technology be developed for weapons of >> >mass destruction by an enemy power. >> > >> >The theoretical threat posed by GM germs has alarmed the MoD. Genetic >> >techniques can make biological weapons more dangerous to humans and less >> >easy to detect or counter It is already feasible to use genetic >> >engineering to introduce a lethal toxin into a pathogen - an organism that >> >attacks humans - to increase its killing potential. Organisms can also be >> >modified to resist antidotes. >> > >> >In future it may be possible to wipe out an army with mutant germs that >> >would then be made benign by a genetic flaw, enabling an enemy force to >> >invade in safety. An enemy may be more ready to deploy such "controllable" >> >GM weapons than existing organisms such as anthrax. Ultimately, it may be >> >possible to develop an "ethnic destruction" germ, that is, an organism >> >that would attack the genes of a particular race. >> > >> > >> >In January a study by the British Medical Association warned that a plague >> >or toxin designed to kill specific racial groups could be only five to 10 >> >years away. Britain has signed treaties prohibiting the creation of >> >biological weapons for military purposes. The sole reason for the research >> >at Porton Down is to develop protection measures against any threat posed >> >to the population or Servicemen. >> > >> >An MoD spokesman said: "To perform this task our scientists have to be at >> >the cutting edge of biological scientific knowledge, including the >> >techniques of genetics." The Government has kept the experimental research >> >secret but The Telegraph has learned that it has been going on for at >> >least five years >> > >> >=============== >> >2) Sunday Telegraph Sunday 1 August 1999 - GM soya milk gives children >> >herpes, senior surgeon tells the Government >> > -By Rajeev Syal >> > >> >A LEADING British surgeon is to give evidence to the Government that >> >genetically modified soya milk triggered a herpes-related virus in her >> >daughter. >> > >> >The surgeon, from south-west London, will explain that cold sores >> >repeatedly erupted on her two-year-old's face when she regularly drank the >> >GM product and immediately cleared when she stopped. >> > >> > >> >The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food said last week that it >> >would investigate her claims. The revelations coincide with worries >> >expressed by the Prince of Wales earlier this year and a number of leading >> >geneticists who believe that some GM products can trigger viruses in >> >humans. >> > >> >The woman, who wishes to remain anonymous to protect her daughter said she >> >wants to make sure that a similar situation is not repeated with other >> >children. She said: "I want the Government to look into this because I saw >> >the change in my daughter - as soon as she was taken off the GM milk, her >> >health dramatically improved. I, and my GP, have not found any other >> >reasons why she became ill. My family previously ate GM products without >> >worrying - but now we do not." >> > >> >Tests have showed that the child is not allergic to soya milk, which her >> >mother began feeding her in February 1998, when she was just a year old >> >because she had developed an allergy to dairy products. The girl >> >immediately began developing large cold sores which did not respond to >> >treatment. She was drinking about four pints of the milk every day - and >> >the sores were getting worse. >> > >> >Her mother, a 38-year-old plastic surgeon in a London hospital, said: "I >> >became aware that she was not getting better. There seemed to be three >> >large, weeping sores on her face at any one time." So she spoke to a >> >friend - who is also a hospital-based geneticist - who warned her that >> >critics of GM products are worried that they could provoke viral >> >infections. >> > >> >She cut the amount of soya milk her daughter was drinking to half a pint a >> >day and the sores cleared up overnight. She said: "The circumstantial >> >evidence was there for all to see." Critics of GM foods believe that >> >"virus promoters" - pieces of DNA in plants that can control activity in >> >its genes - could be responsible for triggering the herpes virus. But >> >other experts disagreed. >> > >> >Prof Jim Dunwell, a plant biotechnologist from the University of Reading, >> >who has been involved in producing GM plants, said it is highly unlikely >> >that plant viruses could provoke reactions in human beings. He said: "It >> >sounds highly unlikely that this child has had her herpes provoked by soya >> >milk. It is more likely to be an allergic reaction." >> > >> >...... >> > >> >July 30, 1999 - Japan Drafts Law On Labeling Gene-Altered Food >> > >> >TOKYO (Nikkei) - Japan's Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries >> >settled Friday on a draft version of a law governing the labeling of food >> >containing genetically modified organisms (GMOs), The Nihon Keizai Shimbun >> >Saturday reported in its morning edition, citing ministry sources. >> > >> >Soybeans, corn or potatoes grown with gene-altering technology and >> >processed products using them will have to be labeled as such. The same >> >rule will be applied if the presence of GMOs or altered protein can be >> >detected. Under the law, which is scheduled to take effect in April 2000, >> >the majority of foods containing plant protein, including tofu and corn >> >snacks, will have to bear such labels. >> > >> >Concerns over mandatory labeling have been expressed by food producers, >> >which are worried that costs will rise, and by the U.S., a major exporter >> >of gene-altered crops. The aim of the law is to protect consumer choice, >> >however, according to the Nikkei story. Under the draft version, the >> >requirements will be limited to genetically altered soybeans, corn and >> >potatoes because those three now account for the bulk of gene-altered >> >crops. Japan relies on U.S. imports of soybeans and corn. >> > >> >Food companies using soybeans, corn or potatoes imported from the U.S. will >> >have to test their products for genetic modifications and label the goods >> >if necessary. If a product's makeup cannot easily be determined because it >> >contains unmodified foods mixed with GMO ingredients, the producer may have >> >to label it as unable to be classified, suggesting it contains GMOs. Highly >> >processed products such as soy sauce and soybean oil are not expected to >> >require labeling. The ministry will issue a list of any companies lax in >> >meeting the labeling requirements and will give them instructions on how to >> >revise their practices. >> > >> >................ >> >Financial Times Tuesday July 13 1999 MONSANTO: The seeds of dispute >> > >> >A landmark trial in Canada will set a precedent for Monsanto's ability to >> >protect its patents on genetically modified crops, says Scott Morrison >> > >> >Monsanto, the US life sciences group, has been having a trying time of >> >late. Efforts to promote genetically modified foods in Europe have >> >backfired. In England, environmentalists have sabotaged a test site. French >> >farmers have staged protests against the import of GM crops. >> > >> >Back in North America, where the use of GM seeds is more widespread, >> >Monsanto is battling an altogether different threat: how to prevent farmers >> >from obtaining its patented seeds illegally. The company says that unless >> >patent protection laws are enforced, it will have thrown billions of >> >dollars of investment down the drain. >> > >> >In a landmark case, due to be heard by a Canadian judge next month, >> >Monsanto is taking a 68-year-old farmer to court after he was discovered to >> >be growing a variety of Monsanto's genetically modified canola (rapeseed) >> >without its consent. >> > >> >The last thing Percy Schmeiser expected after a lifetime of farming was to >> >be caught in a legal battle with one of the world's leading proponents of >> >agricultural biotechnology. To hear Mr Schmeiser tell it, the case is about >> >privacy and a farmer's right to choose. >> > >> >He says the wind blew Monsanto seed into his fields, which are planted with >> >conventional canola. Because it is impossible - other than by genetic >> >testing - to tell the difference between a normal and a GM canola plant, Mr >> >Schmeiser says he was not even aware that GM canola was growing in his >> >property. He does not see why he should be penalised for an accident of >> >"mother nature". >> > >> >The Canadian press has been largely sympathetic to Mr Schmeiser's defence, >> >often portraying him as an ageing David battling a Goliath of the >> >agribusiness industry. And while Monsanto may be big, it is vulnerable. The >> >trial could set a precedent for the degree of control Monsanto and other >> >biotechnology companies exercise over how their products are used by >> >customers and others. >> > >> >Monsanto says the dispute is a simple case of patent infringement, although >> >the stakes are extraordinarily high. The company says it must maintain >> >strict control over the use of its technology in order to recoup its >> >multi-billion dollar research and development budget. >> > >> >Monsanto also argues it must level the playing field for farmers who pay >> >the company's technology fee when they purchase GM seeds from licensed >> >dealers. These farmers sign a "Technology Use Agreement" that requires them >> >to pay a fee to Monsanto based on the acreage they have planted. >> > >> >Moreover, farmers cannot save seed in order to plant the following year's >> >crop. In order to ensure compliance, the agreement gives Monsanto the right >> >to audit farmers' fields, or take samples, for three years after the seeds >> >are bought. >> > >> >Mr Schmeiser is one of about 600 farmers in Canada and the US accused by >> >Monsanto of infringing the agreement. Most of these farmers purchased >> >Monsanto's seeds and signed the agreement, but Mr Schmeiser's case is >> >different because he never bought Monsanto's GM seeds and says the company >> >has no right to his property. >> > >> >The Schmeiser dispute is therefore an important test of whether Monsanto >> >will be able to secure patent protection for its seeds beyond its immediate >> >circle of agricultural customers. >> > >> >Mr Schmeiser says the seeds of the dispute were blown into his field in >> >1997. As farmers customarily do, Mr Schmeiser saved a portion of his 1997 >> >crop to use as seed in 1998. He argues that if he was in fact growing >> >genetically modified GM canola in 1998, it was accidentally recycled. >> > >> >A key part of the trial, therefore, will hinge on how much of Mr >> >Schmeiser's crop was genetically modified, and whether that proportion >> >could be explained by wind-borne contamination or cross-pollination. >> > >> >Monsanto acknowledges that cross-pollination does occur, but it alleges Mr >> >Schmeiser "obtained" seeds. The company is demanding that Mr Schmeiser give >> >up all GM seeds or crops in his possession. Monsanto also wants a federal >> >judge in Canada to impose unspecified punitive and exemplary damages. >> > >> >But with billions of dollars in research and development at stake, Monsanto >> >has also been prepared to employ some tough tactics to track down farmers >> >who violate its agreement. >> > >> >A lot of controversy has focused on the company's toll-free "tip line" set >> >up to enable farmers to report on others who violate Monsanto's >> >usage terms. Mr Schmeiser also alleges that investigators working for >> >Monsanto trespassed in his field to collect samples of his crop. "Monsanto >> >has >> >put the fear of the Lord into people here," he says. >> > >> >Monsanto acknowledges that "some questions exist around one incident," but >> >maintains that it does not condone any illegal practices and that all >> >evidence collected to support its case against Mr Schmeiser was obtained >> >legally. >> > >> >Monsanto could do without the adverse publicity. Already, it is under fire >> >for requiring farmers to buy their seed from the company every year. >> >Farmers around the world have traditionally saved a portion of >their >> >harvest in order to plant the following year's crop - and an estimated >> >three quarters of the world's farmers still do so. Mr Schmeiser accuses >> >Monsanto of wanting nothing less than to dominate farmers and the industry. >> >"They want control of the seed supply," he says. >> > >> >Ray Mowling, a vice-president for Monsanto Canada, acknowledges that his >> >firm's practices have introduced a change in farming culture, but he says >> >the company must recoup its investment and that farmers are free to choose >> >whether they want to abide by Monsanto's terms. >> > >> >An estimated 70 per cent of the canola grown in Canada this year will be >> >genetically modified, as will some 50 per cent of the soybean and cotton >> >crops grown in the US. Mr Schmeiser's case, however, raises concern that >> >farmers might not always have those options, either because their crops >> >could be cross-pollinated or because there could eventually be >> >fewer seed suppliers. >> > >> >"There is growing nervousness that there may not always be a choice," says >> >Sally Rutherford, executive director of the Canadian Federation of >> >Agriculture, which represents more than 200,000 Canadian farmers. >> > >> >At Monsanto, Mr Mowling says the company is working harder to demonstrate >> >that its technology works, resulting in better crops and better food. But >> >unless it can defend its patents, it will be out of business. However >> >unpopular, the case against Mr Schmeiser is seen as critical to the >> >company's future. >> > >> >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >> >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** >> > >> >_________________________________________________________ >> >Richard Wolfson, PhD >> >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >> >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >> >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >> >500 Wilbrod Street >> >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >> >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >> >email: rwolfson@concentric.net >> > >> >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >> >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >> >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >> >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >> >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >> >__________________________________________________________ >> >__________________________________________________________ >> > >> > >> > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 5 12:06:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13525 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:06:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17184; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 11:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16786 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 11:48:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.203.226]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:51:08 +0100 Message-ID: <37A9B1C9.7578@cwcom.net> Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 16:46:17 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Eclipses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1422 Thank you, Gareth, for your interesting post. Your mention of the device of a solar eclipse in _King Solomon's Mines_ , used to rescue the heroes as a 'demonstration of white man's magic', reminds me that it was also a demonstration of Rider Haggard's poor research: he described how, on the previous night, the scene was brilliantly illuminated by the light of the full moon ! Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 5 12:23:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14042 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18566; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:09:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18471 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from laquerencia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EG955U2V; Thu, 05 Aug 1999 12:06:47 EDT To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 11:07:34 -0500 Subject: soup receipe Message-ID: <19990805.110735.27630.1.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: <37A85128.3B00@xtra.co.nz> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-21,23,25-28,30-43 From: Deborah M Byron Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1423 Dear BD Friends, For those of you buried by squash vines, here's an absolutely delicious way to make use of some of the blossoms. Squash Blossom Soup (Crema de Flores de Calabaza) 11/2 Tbsp butter 1 large white onion - diced 3 cups good chicken broth 1 small boiling potato, peeled and chopped 25 large squash blossoms (male blossoms with no squash attached) 2 fresh poblano chiles 1 cup milk 1 medium zucchini - cubed 1 large ear of corn - kernels cut from cob 1/2 cup thick cream salt - about 11/2 tsp parsley for garnish Cook onion in butter until lightly brown. Add broth and potato - simmer for about 20 min. Clean squash blossoms - break off stems and sepals at the base of the blossoms, also remove the pistils in the center of each flower. Cut blossoms, including the bulbous base, crosswise into 1/4 inch strips. Add half the blossoms to broth - simmer 3 mins. Use a blender to puree the mixture - then return to soup pot. (note: you could stop here and have a delicate light soup, without any milk or cream) Roast chiles, remove the charred skins, cut out seed pod, rinse and dice. Add chiles to soup along with milk - simmer for 10 min. Add zucchini and corn - simmer a couple minutes Add remaining squash blossoms - simmer a couple more min. Remove from heat, add cream - salt to taste. Hope you enjoy it, Deborah ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 5 17:15:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA23923 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 17:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA12470; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 17:01:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA12260 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:59:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.135.109] (pm3bky1-135-109.intrepid.net [209.190.135.109]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA19832 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 17:01:36 -0400 Message-Id: <199908052101.RAA19832@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: Re: Eclipses Date: Thu, 5 Aug 99 16:08:46 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1424 Speaking of eclipses and their role in history. Tecumseh learned of an upcoming eclipse from a "white man" and used the knowledge to predict the event and convince the tribal folks that his brother was a powerful medicine man. Jeanne Mozier From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 6 00:48:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA08978 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 00:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08801; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 00:34:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA08676 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 00:32:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.132.36] (max19-39.stc.net [208.210.143.38]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA13176 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 00:35:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 00:41:55 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: More Bad Jokes Fwd: 6th graders-test answers Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1425 >From: Davrougeau@aol.com >Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 00:52:40 EDT >Subject: Fwd: 6th graders-test answers >To: UAI@stc.net >CC: HWHMICRO@i-55.com >MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > >Return-Path: >Received: from aol.com (rly-yb03.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.3]) by > air-yb02.mail.aol.com (v60.18) with ESMTP; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:29:45 > -0400 >Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by > rly-yb03.mx.aol.com (v60.18) with ESMTP; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:29:36 > -0400 >Received: from home.com ([24.8.242.60]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com > (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP > id <19990724162931.RBWN10688.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@home.com>; > Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:29:31 -0700 >Message-ID: <3799E9EF.17E3CD61@home.com> >Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:29:35 -0500 >From: Jim Keller >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: Jim Keller >Subject: 6th graders-test answers >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Actual Answers to SIXTH GRADE History Tests: >> >> 1. Ancient Egypt was inhabited by mummies and they all wrote in >> hydraulics. They lived in the Sarah Dessert. The climate of the >> Sarah is such that the inhabitants have to live elsewhere. >> >> 2. The Bible is full of interesting caricatures. In the first book of >> the bible, Guinessis, Adam and Eve were created from an apple tree. >> One of their children, Cain, asked, "Am I my brother's son?" >> >> 3. Moses led the Hebrew slaves to the Red Sea, where they made >> unleavened bread, which is bread made without any ingredients. Moses >went >> up on Mount Cyanide to get the ten commandments. He died Before he ever >> reached Canada. >> >> 4. Solomom had three hundred wives and seven hundred porcupines. >> >> 5. The Greeks were a highly sculptured people, and without them we >> wouldn't have history. The Greeks also had myths. A myth is a >> female moth. >> >> 6. Actually, Homer was not written by Homer, but by another man of that >> name. >> >> 7. Socrates was a famous Greek teacher who went around gving people >> advice. They killed him. Socrates died from and overdose of >> wedlock. After his death, his career suffered a dramatic decline. >> >> 8. In the Olympic games, Greeks ran races, jumped, hurled biscuits, and >> threw the java. >> >> 9. Eventually, the Romans conquered the Greeks. History calls people >> Romans because they never stayed in one place very long. >> >> 10. Julius Caesar extinguished himself on the battle fields of Gaul. >> The Ides of March murdered him because they thought he was going to be >> made king. Dying, he gasped out: "Tee hee, Brutus." >> >> 11. Nero was a cruel tyranny who would torture his subjects by playing >> the fiddle to them. >> >> 12. Joan of Arc was burnt to a steak and was connonized by Bernard >> Shaw. >> >> 13. Finally Magna Carta provided that no man should be hanged twice for >> the same crime. >> >> 14. In midevil times, most people were alliterate. The greatest writer >> of the futile ages was Chaucer, who wrote many poems and verses >> and also wrote literature. >> >> 15. Another story was William Tell, who shot an arrow through an apple >> while standing on his son's head. >> >> 16. Queen Elizabeth was the "Virgin Queen." As a queen she was a >> success. When she exposed herself before her troops they all >> shouted "hurrah." >> >> 17. It was an age of greawt inventions and discoveries. Gutenberg >> invented removable type and the Bible. Another important invention >> was the circulation of blood. Sir Walter Raleigh is a historical >> figure because he invented cigarettes and started smoking. And Sir >> Francis Drake circumcised the world with a 100-foot clipper. >> >> 18. The greatest writer of the Renaissance was William Shakespeare. He >> was born in the year 1564, supposedly on his birthday. He never made >> much money and is famous only because of his plays. He wrote >> tragedies, comedies, and hysterectomies, all in Islamic pentameter. >> Romeo and Juliet are an example of a heroicouplet. Romeo's last >> wish was to be laid by Juliet. >> >> 19. Writing at the same time as Shakespeare was Miguel Cervantes. He >> wrote Donkey Hote. The next great author was John Milton. Milton >> wrote Paridise Lost. Then his wife died and he wrote Paradise >Regained. >> >> 20. During the Renaissance American began. Christopher Columbus was a >> great navigator who discovered America while cursing about the >> Atlantic. His ships were called the Nina, the Pinta, and the Santa Fe. >> >> 21. Later, the Pilgrims crossed the ocean, and this was called >Pilgrim's >> Progress. The winter of 1620 was a hard one for the settlers. Many >> died and many babies were born. Captain John Smith was responsible >> for all this. (Capt. John Smith was the Captain of the Titanic). >> >> 22. One of the causes of the Revolutionary War was the English put >> tacks in their tea. Also, the colonists would send their parcels >through >> the post without any stamps. Finally the colonists won the War and >> no longer had to pay for taxis. >> >> 23. Delegates from the original 13 states formed the Contented >Congress. >> Thomas Jefferson, a Virgin, and Benjamin Franklin were two singers of >> the Declaration of Independence. Franklin discovered electricity by >> rubbing two cats backwards and declared, "A horse dividied against >> itself cannot stand." Franklin died in 1790 and is still dead. >> >> 24. Soon the Constitution of the United States was adopted to secure >> domestic hostility. Under the constituion the people enjoyed the >> right to keep bare arms. >> >> 25. Abraham Lincoln became America's greatest Precedent. Lincoln's >> mother died in infancy, and he was born in a log cabin which he >> built with his own hands. Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves by signing >> the Emasculation Proclamation. On the night of April 14, 1865, Lincoln >> went to the theater and was shot in his seat by one of the actors >> in a moving picutre show. The believed assinator was John Wilkes >> Booth, a supposedly insane actor. This ruined Booth's career. >> >> 26. Meanwhile in Europe, the enlightenment was a reasonable time. >> Voltaire invented electricy and also wrote the book called Candy. >> Gravity was invented by Issac Walton. It is chiefly noticeable in >> the autumn when the apples are falling off the trees. >> >> 27. Johann Bach wrote a great many musical compositions and had a large >> number of children. In between he practiced on an old spinster >> which he kept up in his attic. Back died from 1750 to the present. >Bach >> was the most famous composer in the world and so was Handel. >> Handel was half German half Italian and half English. He was very >large. >> >> 28. Beethoven wrote music even though he was deaf. He was so deaf he >> wrote loud music. He took long walks in the forest even when >> everyone was calling for him. Beethoven expired in 1827 and later >> died for this. >> >> 29. The French Revolution was accomplished before it happened and >> catapulted into Napoleon. Napoleon wanted an heir to inherit his >> poser, but since Josephine was a boness, she couldn't have any >> children. >> >> 30. The sun never set on a British Empire because the British Empire is >in >> the East, and the sun sets in the West. Queen Victoria was the >> longest queen. She sat on a thorn for 63 years. She was a moral >> woman who practiced virtue. Her death was the final event which >> ended her reign. >> >> 31. The nineteenth century was a time of a great many thoughts and >> inventions. People stopped reproducing by hand and started >> reproducing by machine. The invention of the steamboat caused a >> network of rivers to spring up. Cyrus McCormick invented the >> McCormick raper, which did the work of a hundred men. Louis >> Pasteur discovered a cure for rabbis. Charles Darwin was a naturalist >who >> wrote the Organ of the Species. Madman Curie discovered the radio. >> >> And Karl Marx became one of the Marx brothers. > ***** Some Bad Jokes: What's the difference between a southern zoo and a northern zoo? A southern zoo has a description of the animal on the front of the cage, along with a recipe. How do you get a sweet little 80-year-old lady to say f*ck? Get another sweet little 80-year-old lady to yell *BINGO*! What's the Cuban national anthem? "Row, Row, Row Your Boat" Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 6 07:56:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA14407 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:56:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA23314; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:42:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA23196 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.117] (pm3shep4-163-193.intrepid.net [209.190.163.193]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA04829 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:42:51 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:47:24 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Corn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1426 Corn, not the heirloom Lovel variety, but real open-pollinated 'sweet' white corn (from SoC): can anyone give me a few pointers on it, BD and otherwise? We're up to the silk and tassle stage. The beds were well composed and then 'mulched' with good compost. Do I need to routinely add 'nitrogen'? And from what source(s), seaweed? fish? compost tea? ? What about water? It's a drought here. The unirrigated fields are dying down, or have already burned out. I've got drip to this corn. Other than causing lodging, can I give the corn TOO MUCH water? What about dealing with cornborers and such? Any suggestions from your reading or experience would be appreciated. Thanks -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 6 08:12:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA14933 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA23828; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:56:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA23760 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:54:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.117] (pm3shep4-163-193.intrepid.net [209.190.163.193]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA06716 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:56:58 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 20:01:32 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Biodynamics Now! on the Air, 8/7/99 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1427 Dear BD Now! Members: I'm going to be on a national food and farming program tomorrow at 1pm EDT discussing BD Now!, biodynamics, the Claymont sustainable agriculture vision, the October Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Conference here, how the industrial overlords took away our hoes and gave us installment buying, and, after all of that, probably talking at great length about how BADLY the best biodynamic teacher in America needs a gag writer. (And I hope you know me well enough to know that this last does not refer to ME...in any regard :-) The show may be being broadcast in your town, you can get a list of affiliates at http://www.libertyworksradio.com , or, praises be, if you can read this email, you can probably HEAR the program via REALAUDIO at the URL above at 1PM EDT. (Don't forget to have REALAUDIO on your browser by showtime!) If you've got something to plug, get a hold of me SOON! Hopefully we can do some questions and answers from the email audience. (This is a 1-hour program.) "See" you tomorrow! Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA BIODYNAMICS Now! temp mailing address: 207 W. High Street POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 6 08:25:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA16429 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24322; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24251 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:05:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp298.cy-net.net [208.21.195.107]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA09086 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:07:35 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEDFD8.9371EEC0@FLYLO>; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 06:54:49 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEDFD8.9371EEC0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Biodynamics Now! on the Air, 8/7/99 Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 06:54:35 -0500 Encoding: 16 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1428 Congrats Allan!! A couple of pointers, if you have 2 computers at the house, you can rig one to go online and have the output through your stereo sys and record the interviews yourself. My husband did this for me when I was interviewed awhile back by Talk Spot radio. It was an interactive deal, they put up photos from the web site (that I'd zipped and sent them prior to the interview), and we took call in and e-mail questions. Tons of fun, but fast paced and hectic 2 hour interview! It went so well, that from Jan - Mar, I was asked to be on the show every Sunday! if you have a list of topics you're going to discuss, e-mail them to the interviewer so ya'll both be on the same track most of the time. martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas, Hell's Better Half!) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 6 12:08:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02327 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06594; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:51:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06331 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00FF8D62@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:47:46 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 6 Aug 99 11:50:26 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 6 Aug 99 11:49:59 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:49:58 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: fruit question Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <6ECE557058B@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1429 Hello All! I would like to share with you a request from somebody I know from the SANET list who is searching for farmer's answers to common problems you have with your fruit crops and solutions you use. Since this will be used in a national magazine article, it would be a good chance to spread a few bd (or homeopathic or whatever you know) solutions around to others who may not have heard of them. Lon is a second generation organic farmer himself, so he does have some context within which to put this info. Please send responses directly to him, though you might also want to CC the group if you have something interesting to share. Thanks! Anita Lon wrote this for me to send to you all: I'm writing an article for a national magazine on diseases of fruits. I'm mainly interested in the common fruits - apples, pears, peaches, plums, apricots, blackberries, raspberries, blueberries, strawberries, grapes. In order to make it more interesting, rather than just write from writhin references, I would like to hear from growers in as many areas as possible on what diseases are in your area and what treatments you use for the diseases - resistant varieties, biological controls, etc. I was hoping this way I could get a more personal feel in the article and perhaps get some novel creative ways to control disease that aren't widely known. -Lon J. Rombough Grapes, unusual fruits, writing, more, at http://www.hevanet.com/lonrom From: "Lon J. Rombough" From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 6 12:34:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02941 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:34:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08287; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:15:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cougar.ssi.stratus.com (cougar.ssi.stratus.com [198.97.42.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08068 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:13:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by cougar.ssi.stratus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA29596 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:14:45 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37A9B1C9.7578@cwcom.net> Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 12:14:45 -0400 (EDT) Organization: Society for Real Time Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Charlie Hodgson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: RE: Eclipses Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1430 On 05-Aug-99 Tony Nelson-Smith wrote: > a solar eclipse in .... > on the previous night, the scene was brilliantly illuminated by the > light of the full moon ! Tony N-S. Like my brother-in-law last week, arguing there was going to be two eclipses in the same week. I had to resort to two issues of Sky and Telescope to swhow they *must* be two weeks apart. Rider Haggard must have gone to school with Hugh's 6th graders :) Charlie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 6 14:16:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06011 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 14:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15727; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:54:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15385 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.98] ("port 2051"@[148.233.78.98]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FG200JLU38V7B@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:26:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 12:34:38 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Biodynamics Now! on the Air, 8/7/99 In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@col1.telmex.net.mx (Unverified) To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1431 >The show may be being broadcast in your town, you can get a list of >affiliates at http://www.libertyworksradio.com , or, praises be, if you can >read this email, you can probably HEAR the program via REALAUDIO at the URL >above at 1PM EDT. (Don't forget to have REALAUDIO on your browser by >showtime!) Dear Allan: Could you provide more specific info regarding the web chanel you would be at, the station name and location, mthe name of the show, the name of the host, etc. There are a number of posibilities on the web site you indicated. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 6 15:54:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01557 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:54:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22921; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:35:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22627 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:31:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.58] (pm3shep1-163-58.intrepid.net [209.190.163.58]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA27096 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:34:18 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 03:38:24 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Biodynamics Now! on the Air, 8/7/99 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1432 >Dear Allan: > >Could you provide more specific info regarding the web chanel you would be >at, the station name and location, mthe name of the show, the name of the >host, etc. There are a number of posibilities on the web site you >indicated. > >Regards > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > 1PM Eastern Daylight Time at the URL I posted previously. It will be live and on the air. There should be only ONE show being broadcast at that time. I'll get the exact name of the show later. Thanks -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 6 17:45:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA04229 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:45:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA29614; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA29422 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.113] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.113]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0FG200DNFBG2RB@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:24:05 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 15:31:44 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Biodynamics Now! on the Air, 8/7/99 In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1433 >>Dear Allan: >> >>Could you provide more specific info regarding the web chanel you would be >>at, the station name and location, mthe name of the show, the name of the >>host, etc. There are a number of posibilities on the web site you >>indicated. >> >>Regards >> >>Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >>Comala, Colima, MEXICO >> > >1PM Eastern Daylight Time at the URL I posted previously. It will be live >and on the air. There should be only ONE show being broadcast at that time. >I'll get the exact name of the show later. > >Thanks > >-Allan I visit the URL you mentioned and ended up in a very large menu with lots of shows avail and four (best) live talk radio shows options to choose from. Could you please tell us what button should we click in the page in order to hear your show. regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 6 21:19:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA02867 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:19:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA07893; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA04653 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:24:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip011.computer.net [140.186.252.11]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA19294 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:26:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:27:22 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Mid-Atlantic BD Conference Brochure Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1434 Allan, "Peter Berley" is how he spells his name...(Berley not Behrley). He's "Exectutive Chef" at Angelica... JS From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 7 07:19:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA09092 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 07:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA25518; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 06:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA25459 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 06:55:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.58] (pm3shep3-163-116.intrepid.net [209.190.163.116]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA10994 for ; Sat, 7 Aug 1999 06:57:43 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5E3154F6E3248219852567C10048304C.0000000000000000@webcity> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 03:43:59 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: For those who use the Preps: JPI Recommendations Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1435 ><<>Best Sequential Spray Periods >>If moisture lacking: >. >>Saturday, July 31 @ 10 pm through Tuesday, August 3 @ 2 pm>> > >so when is the next best window for sequential spraying to bring on some >rain? > >Thanks, >Jane Sherry Jane - This is what I've got right now: Best Sequential Spray Periods If moisture lacking: Sunday, July 4 @ 4 pm through Tuesday, July 6 @ 9 am Saturday, July 31 @ 10 pm through Tuesday, August 3 @ 2 pm Saturday, August 28 @ 4 am through Monday, August 30 @ 8 pm During September only an abbreviated sequence can be suggested because of the many conflicts during Leaf (Water) periods (Moons upper nodal point, Moon at Apogee, and Mercury at its lower nodal point.) If moisture excessive Wednesday, July 14 @ 10 pm through Saturday, July 17 @ 12 pm Saturday, August 21 @ 12 pm through Monday, August 23 @ 10 pm Tuesday, September 7 @ 4 pm through Friday, September 10 @ 6 am From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 06:25:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA07914 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 06:25:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA20704; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 06:08:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA20663 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 06:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.106] (pm3mbr2-166-75.intrepid.net [209.190.166.75]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA18017 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 06:10:01 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:14:16 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: And then the intern said.. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1436 (FIRST IN A SERIES) "I'll go pull up the strawberry plants so we can put those brocolli starts in this morning." -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 07:36:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA08189 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 07:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22271; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 07:17:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA22180 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 07:15:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.13] (max19-74.stc.net [208.210.143.73]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA13874 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 07:17:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 07:24:48 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF: And then the intern said.. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1437 >(FIRST IN A SERIES) > >"I'll go pull up the strawberry plants so we can put those brocolli starts >in this morning." > >-Allan >igg@igg.com Allan, I wondered if you can be invited to attend my conference and Greg's workshop the day before. Greg thought it was a good idea and you'd be most welcome. Hugh ***** Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 09:34:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09699 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27417; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27187 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:13:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp46.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.146]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA23951 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 08:11:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <009f01bee268$cec5d3a0$924b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: Subject: Attn Eclipse watchers Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 08:12:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1438 Hi stargazers... This was so wonderful, I wanted to share it with you...the internet being flooded with doom-n-gloom eclipse predictions is just getting me down. Finally another viewpoint...funny how dramatically a different perspective can enlighten! The website noted is really not to be missed...you can see the diagrams of both the grand cross & the heliocentric, sidereal Star of David. Just goes to show you...perspective can make all the difference! Love to you all. Julie FW: My dear family of light, Karen Clark Keys, a dear friend, composed this very important and different perspective concerning the August 11th eclipse. In these times of instantaneous manifestation, when we are being blessed with an unprecedented opportunity of accelerated growth, her words offer a wonderfully different and empowering approach to the energies of the Eclipse. I am deeply grateful for her time and effort and her loving service in sharing this with us. If you wish to share comments with her, please email her at KMCKeys@aol.com or you can reply to me and I will forward them to her. Many blessing and love, Donita Jolly =========================================================================== Considerations for the August 11th 1999 Eclipse In looking at the many print and electronic media that is boiling to the surface about our upcoming big event of August 11th, I am struck by something that I feel has been left out by an overwhelming number of sites and print materials. Much of the attention given to the coming eclipse and the equally intense Grand Cross of August 17th & 18th, tends to be a bit on the "woe-is-me" side. The views given and taken purport to be moving and evolving to some higher plane or consciousness, but it seems to be seen through the lens of "this is going to be a lot of very hard and painful work". This hard work thing may or may not be true. But that is seeing things through the eyes of "man". We are claiming to be "about our Makers business", with all of our meditations and prayer circles but are we "seeing" with out Makers eyes? There IS a very interesting alternative, another sign of the times, that offers that lens, but it is one that is getting comparatively very little attention. That is the heliocentric astrological chart cast for August 11th. Before I go any further, I must say a deep thank you to Marcus Mason, Brett Kellet and Geoff Smith of Devon UK for putting this heliocentric chart and a excellent interpretation of it on the web. Their web page is: http://www.ping.be/the-dba/eclip/Pages/astro01.html or for those on AOL please click on the hyperlink Heliocentric view For their more detailed interpretation of that chart, go to the sister site of: http://www.ping.be/the-dba/eclip/Pages/astrhel.html#Chart The chart data is based on the time and place of the most precise and maximum completeness of the Eclipse. Mason, Kellet & Smith list this as 11:03 GMT near Rimnicu Vilcea Romania 45N02 24E22. Obviously as we adjust the data for our own locations around the globe and at different time zones, the configuration changes. But the operative "word" or notion here is maximum peak of exact eclipse. It is the preciseness of the out pouring of Divine energy we should note. How it particularly manifest in specific ways for our own lives and locals is another thing. What I am interested in is the bigger picture, the lens through which this energy is out pouring, the intent-ional ground zero if you will. As I looked at the visual image of the heliocentric chart laid out next to the geocentric chart, I was flooded with an intense "interpretation". Consider the position from which the heliocentric chart is seen versus the geocentric. One is seen from "on high", far, far above our entire solar system. Who or what can, does see the earth and all of our affairs from such a position? Divine, God, The All! The heliocentric chart is the picture of how The Almighty sees our processes from above. By contrast, the geocentric is seen not just from the position of earth, humankind's perspective, but the zodiac is seen almost as a wall. The zodiac constellations are those constellations circling around and relatively close to the horizon line rather than purely direct over head. The geocentric is what we humans see ourselves surrounded by! The heliocentric is what The Almighty is seeing and pouring down upon us. This is a major shift in point of view when you consider that we, as humans, are focused on things from our point of view. We are taking our astrological signals as though we have constructed a wall around us. Walls confine. Walls fall down and can come crushing in. Walls can protect but they also can trap us. It is my opinion that despite all of the verbalizing of "prayer, meditation, love and light", we are still operating from a fear base, a trapped, walled in and confined space. We are waiting for not only the other shoe to fall but for the walls to come down as we continue to interpret Aug. 11th from ground zero of three dimensional "man" point of view. I ask that my fellow astrologers do far more in the days remaining to interpret, talk about, post and transmit from that other point of view, the view above the solar system, the position of the ultimate Scorpio Eagle flying truly high above it all. Specifically, the heliocentric chart for the eclipse shows not a Grand Cross but a Star of David, a configuration of two equally balance Grand Trines. The two Trines are occurring in Earth and Water. The short version of interpreting that combination is a balancing of body (matter) and soul. Rather than focusing exclusively on the mental spiritual combination of prayer and meditation, it may serve us well to include body work and body celebration. My mind is immediately drawn to shamanic and spiritualist traditions where dance and music, particularly the drum, are used to connect with The Divine. In addition to this Star of David terminating in planets positioned in Earth and Water, the houses that these planets rest in further balances things out. The Chiron/Pluto (healing, bridging, deep transformation) conjunction in Scorpio (getting to the deep mystery of things) is in the heliocentric 1st House, Mercury (talking) in Pisces (about Spirit) falls in the 5th and the Ceres (mothering, nurturance, letting go of the child) in Cancer (nurturance to give and receive security) is in the 9th House. Here we have Fire as the realm in which The Divine Spirit will act out or manifest. Our Earth based second trine has Vesta in Virgo (exactly what Virgo needs to be it's true and higher self) in the 11th, Pallas in Taurus (great time for crafts people and artisans) (apologizes to Mason, Keller & Smith, BUT; Pallas is the Divine force of ALL Wisdom, not just feminine) in the 7th House and Neptune in Capricorn (it could be illusion, confusion and delusion or it could be Divinity itself coming to change our obsessions with status, materialism and capitalism itself) in the 3rd. This second trine is occurring in Air. This represents another arena in which the out pouring of the Holy Spirit will make itself manifest. All four elements are brought to bear. All four elements are being given balance from above. As this aspect configuration is known as the Star of David, there is a very strong connection with The Christ Spirit manifesting in some form or fashion. Again, I ask that if at all possible, that we mediate on, pray about, and most importantly dance and drum our body prayers of thanksgiving around the imagery of The Divine lens, the heliocentric chart. As ABOVE, let it truly be below. Ashe _+**_++_**_+_ The Roller Coaster Theory A second issue that I take with many of the astrologically based prognostications is an over emphasis on THE exact date of a particular event. I am aware that most astrological writings do speak about the energies of a particular aspect or event having an effect before or after. While explanation are given that there is a "building up to" and/or "letting down", the style and wording of most writings still seem to focus far more on some event happening ON the day of the aspect, the eclipse, etc. As I have looked at and followed astrological aspect peaks, particularly the biggies that get touted so much, I find that THE DAY OF tends to be calm and uneventful. If there are intense events happening around an astrological peak, the vast majority of the most memorable ones occur before or after, seldom on the day. The reason this has given me much and particular pause at this time is a recent conversation I had with a dear friend and colleague who I admire to the utmost. She spoke of a group of associates of hers who live in and around the DC area who have decided to not to go into metro DC proper on the 11th. On the one hand, this IS THE most appropriate time to be centered, grounded, in prayer and giving thanks. It IS the right time for that. However the impression I was given was that this was being done to avoid some cataclysmic event. My brief comment to my friend was that I am not sure that anything is going to happen ON Aug. 11th. It is the days before and after I would be concerned about. Here is where I would like to suggest what I call The Roller Coaster Theory. As we ride a roller coaster, the first hill sets the tone and the pace for all that follows. As we climb to the top of that first hill, there is much anticipation. Some people can't wait. Others are suddenly having a change of heart and want to get off. Everybody is tensely want for the big moment. Everybody is wondering exactly what is going to happen. Then we are at the top, the peak. And for a short second, a moment, we see the most wonderful view, possibly at the highest point in the immediate area, the sky is blue and clear and all is calm, almost silent for that brief second at the top. And then we plunge. We holler, we yell, mostly we scream. For some of us, it was worse than what we thought. For others it is great fun, exactly what we expected, but we are all being tossed and flipped, banged and bumped on this ride. So it is with exact aspects, particularly these big big events we are seeing that are the signposts heralding in the opening of a new phase, a new ride, in human life. Consider the notion that as eventful as this coming eclipse and Star of David (Grand Trine versus Grand Cross) is, it only represents 3 days out of 365. And that is just one year. And most of us live more than one year. The connected analogy is that while the ride of life is tempered and toned by that first hill, the bulk of the ride continues far past that point. Life itself will not allow us to remain fixated on any one point in time. Continuing with this connected analogy; In looking at major events that occur around major aspects, most of the events occur BEFORE or AFTER. The most recent case in point is the deaths of not only JFK Jr. but also the King of Morocco, (an event that received scant attention, at least here in the USA). They occurred before the July 28th eclipse. Then literally and immediately the day after July 28th, the shooting of 12 people in Atlanta. And the shootings have not stopped since. A man in a suburb of Birmingham Alabama kills 3 at work. Two days later, another man walks into a restaurant, kills a man, wounds a woman and then kills himself. We must pray for ourselves and all around us that as the out pouring of Divine Power intensifies, like the anxiety and anticipation up and down the sides of the roller coaster, that humankind will open up to hear and see that all this energy and "pressure" they are feeling is nothing more than the out pouring of Divines energy. Perhaps we should give even more attention to our light work occurring before and after these peak days. We may be giving more weight to what is actually the eye of the storm, the still zone centered in the hurricane. (Having been smack in the middle of Hurricane Fran when she devastated Raleigh NC, I can really appreciate the notion of the precise moment of the exact arrival, the center or eye of the storm, as an event being the calmest moment of many hours of turmoil. Another good analogy). As the Scriptures (I am referring to the Christian Holy Bible, just one of many true and Holy "teaching manuals") state, we will not know "THE day or THE hour". What the Scriptures does admonish us to do is "to watch and to wait", to keep our "lamps lit", to be ready. The Scriptures does tell us to know the Seasons of when things will be. But we must be careful in our well intended zeal that we don't miss or misinterpret the true nature of the patterns that the zodiac and astrology symbolize. Ashe! Namaste' As within; so without. Shahara ----- Original Message ----- From: Hugh Lovel To: Sent: Monday, August 09, 1999 6:24 AM Subject: Re: OFF: And then the intern said.. > >(FIRST IN A SERIES) > > > >"I'll go pull up the strawberry plants so we can put those brocolli starts > >in this morning." > > > >-Allan > >igg@igg.com > > Allan, > > I wondered if you can be invited to attend my conference and Greg's > workshop the day before. Greg thought it was a good idea and you'd be most > welcome. > > Hugh > > ***** > > > > Hugh Lovel > 8475 Dockery Road > Blairsville, Georgia 30512 > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 09:35:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09737 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27653; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:19:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27593 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:19:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from dirkers@juno.com) by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EHK529RV; Mon, 09 Aug 1999 09:17:46 EDT To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 21:47:37 -0500 Subject: Re: What Folks are Doing was: lovelgate /2 Message-ID: <19990809.080708.3254.2.Dirkers@juno.com> References: <37A85128.3B00@xtra.co.nz> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-4,8-12 From: Christopher P Dirkers Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1439 Could you please direct me to a source of information about Eugene Canales spading machine referred to in your last message? Many thanks. Christopher Dirkers -------------------------------------- Located in the beautiful Ozarks, Dirkers' Pleasant Valley School and Farm is dedicated to providing nourishment for mind and body. We offer pure, nutritionally enhanced produce, herbs, and pastured poultry. Classes include Family Preparedness, Health & Agronomy, and Scriptural Law. Dirkers' Pleasant Valley School & Farm HC62, Box 370-A Calico Rock, Arkansas. U.S.A. (72519) 870-297-8040 or dirkers@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 09:58:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA10078 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:58:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28831; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:37:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28671 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:35:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp46.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.146]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA28601 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 08:33:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00c201bee26b$e4272020$924b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: Subject: Re: And then the intern said.. Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 08:34:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1440 The more I delve into the depths of self-improvement (and believe me folks, I'm trying!) I find that I have very little power to change anyone but myself. It is so difficult to remember that, as one encounters the apparent inadequacies of others, their faults, stupidities, mistakes & downright annoying, and even at times, threatening behaviors...I was taught by a wonderful master, that everyone is exactly where they need to be for their stage of development & evolution...emotionally, spiritually, mentally. I'm trying to remember to chant..."I can only change myself" When I actualize & practice this, everything around me changes. Love Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 12:16:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA12956 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12558; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 11:58:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12377 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 11:55:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip061.computer.net [140.186.252.61]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA03378 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 11:58:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 11:58:32 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: August 08, 1999 - August 14, 1999 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA12382 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1441 Calendar of the Soul [August 08, 1999 - August 14, 1999] Nineteenth Week (August 11-17) In secret to encompass now With memory what I've newly got Shall be my striving's further aim: Thus, ever strengthening, selfhood's forces Shall be awakened from within And growing, give me to myself. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Geheimnisvoll das Neu-Empfang'ne Mit der Erinnrung zu umschliessen, Sei meines Strebens weitrer Sinn: Er soll erstarkend Eigenkräfte In meinem Innern wecken Und werdend mich mir selber geben. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+19 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 12:44:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13727 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14394; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14268 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp245.cy-net.net [208.21.195.54]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16836 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 11:23:29 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEE256.A6642B80@FLYLO>; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 11:02:19 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEE256.A6642B80@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: Plowman's Folly (book on e-bay) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:38:24 -0500 Encoding: 8 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1442 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=143328988 This is a book, auctioning currently at $4 on e-bay. Supports the older (published in 1944) horse drawn cultivation methods vs the moldboard plow. Talks about the way the plow destroys the soil. I thought it might be of interest to the biodynamic list. martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 13:36:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15066 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 13:36:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17934; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 13:11:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17794 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 13:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d140.infoserve.net [199.175.157.140]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA27038 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001e01bee28a$f8e3de80$8c9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: OFF / GEN8-8 Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:10:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1443 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Monday, August 09, 1999 8:20 AM Subject: GEN8-8 > >Label GM Foods Says US Trade Group > >The US National Nutritional Foods Association (NNFA), a trade group >representing the interests of retailers and manufacturers of dietary >supplements, natural foods and other products, has called for genetically >modified (GM) foods to be labelled as such. The association has also vowed >to aggressively seek legislation requiring such labelling. The executive >director of the NNFA, Michael Q. Ford, commented, "The public has a right >to know what they are eating. If a food product contains GMOs, then it >should be stated on the label." > >Ref: National Nutritional Foods Association, USA. >Tel: +1 (949) 622 6272 Fax: +1 (949) 622 6266 URL: http://www.nnfa.org/ > >......... > >Monsanto welcomes label move > >The Evening Post, New Zealand > >August 5, 1999 > >Labelling will take the mystique out of genetically modified food, >according to the New Zealand head of American biotechnology giant [ >Monsanto ] , > >by Murray Willocks. > >Monsanto has led the way in genetically engineering crops to, among other >things, make them pesticide resistant - work that has drawn heavy criticism. > >New Zealand and Australian Health Ministers on Tuesday decided all foods >containing genetically modified ingredients should be labelled. > >Mr Willocks said the company supported labelling and consumer choice. Such >labelling would help customers learn about and accept genetic engineering. > >Mr Willocks said processes to test whether foods had modified ingredients >were being developed, and Monsanto had supplied samples to companies >developing the tests. > >Two of New Zealand's biggest food manufacturers, Heinz Watties and Goodman >Fielder, are checking whether they use such ingredients. > >A Heinz Watties spokeswoman yesterday said it was working towards becoming >free of the ingredients. It had already switched some ingredients but >couldn't give details. > >So far, costs incurred in the switch hadn't been passed on to consumers, >she said. > >Goodman Fielder spokeswoman Jackie Crossman said its audit hadn't yet >affected prices. Goodman Fielder sells bread under the Quality Bakers, >Vogel and Molenberg labels. > >Dick Hubbard, of Hubbard Foods, said its breakfast cereals were already >free of genetically modified ingredients. Hubbard Foods had responded to >customer demand and switched from using soya oil which could be genetically >modified to GM-free European canola oil. > >Prices for both oils were similar at present so the change hadn't affected >costs, Mr Hubbard said. ... > >Health Ministry assignments manager David Curry said about 5700 food >labelling submissions were received during public consultation earlier this >year. ... > >-------------------- > >LEFTOVERS > >While Australian and New Zealand health ministers have voted to label >genetically modified foods, the detail of exactly what will be labelled and >how has still be decided. > >.............. > >FOCUS-Japan risks U.S. ire with GMO label plan > > August 5, 1999 More Articles > >TOKYO, Reuters [EB] via NewsEdge Corporation : Japan's Agriculture >Ministry, under pressure from consumers, proposed on Wednesday that foods >made with genetically altered crops be specially labelled -- a move that >could spark trade tensions with the United States. > >Japan, believed to be the world's biggest importer of genetically modified >organisms (GMOs), is heavily dependent on farm imports from the United >States, the world's largest producer of genetically altered crops. > >The United States has warned that if Japan implements mandatory labelling >of genetically modified foods, it could mislead consumers about food safety >and disrupt agricultural trade. > >Japan has approved 22 varieties of GMOs under its safety guidelines, >including soybeans, corn, rapeseed, potatoes, cotton and tomatoes, but the >ministry said labelling requirements should be imposed on these crops and >food products that use them in order to allow consumers to make an informed >choice of foods. > >....... > >Nexyt article posted by creuss@bluewin.ch (Christoph Reuss) > >Problems with genetically engineered insulin > >For more details, see http://www.swissdiabetes.ch/~fis2/englvers/englnews.htm > >Posted by "Evidence that thousands of diabetics in Britain may have >suffered a deterioration in their health from genetically-engineered >insulin has been withheld by the British Diabetics Association, whose role >is to advise patients and to protect their interests. > >The evidence was contained in a report, commissioned by the association and >completed in 1993, which highlighted dangers faced by about 10 per cent of >the 150,000 diabetics who had been switched from the traditional >animal-derived insulin to genetically-engineered human insulin. > >Some adversely affected began, without warning, to go into comas, known as >hypoglycaemic episodes or "hypos". Some suffered severe injuries, a few >crashed their cars, and others believed they would have died had they not >been rescued as they lay unconscious. An estimated 15,000 people may still >suffer because they are injecting themselves twice a day with insulin that >may not suit them. > >[...] > >The 3,000 letters of complaint written to the British Diabetic Association >by patients, their relatives and doctors concerned the deterioration in >their condition since being moved from animal insulin to >genetically-engineered human insulin. After analysing nearly 400 of the >letters, Natasha Posner, an independent researchers commissioned by the >DBA, said: <had been stable and controlled over many years and allowed a full and >normal Iife, suddenly changed and became problematic and life disrupting. >For people experiencing these difficulties, the cost in terms of immediate >negative effects far out-weighed any possible long term benefits of this >new insulin." > >....... > >JAPAN UNVEILS LABEL PLANS FOR GENETICALLY- ALTERED FOOD >TOKYO, Aug 05, 1999 (Asia Pulse via COMTEX) - > >- The Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries unveiled draft >regulations Wednesday that will require 28 food items containing >genetically modified organisms (GMOs) to be labeled as such, starting in >April 2001. Producers and importers will have to put special labels on >soybeans, corn and potatoes, as well as processed products, if they >obviously contain GMOs or if GMO genes or proteins can be detected. > >The draft regulations cover tofu and corn snacks but exclude soy sauce and >oils, which are highly processed and difficult to analyze for GMOs. >Intermediary products and animal feed are also excluded, as is liquor. >Labels on genetically modified soybeans and products that clearly contain >GMOs will read, "soybeans (gene-altered)." > >If the GMO content cannot be determined, the product will be labeled, "corn >(may be gene-altered)." And if GMO ingredients make up less than 5% of the >product by weight, or the food does not contain any GMOs at all, the >producer can label it as "not genetically altered." > >Violators will have their names disclosed to the public or be ordered to >change their practices. > >The exclusion of soy sauce and soy oil is drawing criticism from consumer >groups, however, because the products account for more than 70% of the >soybeans in domestic distribution - 80-90% of them imports from the U.S., a >major producer of genetically altered crops. (Nikkei) > >(C) 1999 Asia Pulse Pte Ltd Copyright 1999 > >........... > >08/04 U.S. study raises new questions about GM crops >LONDON (Reuters) U.S. scientists Wednesday threw a new question into the >simmering cauldron of confusion about the effects of genetically modified >(GM) crops. > >Research by Yong-Biao Liu of the University of Arizona cast doubt on the >common strategy of planting refuges of non-GM cotton close to a GM variety >to slow the spread of insects that might develop resistance to a >pest-killing toxin in GM cotton. Liu studied Bt cotton, a variety >engineered to contain the insect-killing bacteria Bacillus thuringiensis. > >His research was published in the science journal Nature on Wednesday and >was reviewed by Michael Crawley of Imperial College in Ascot, Britain. Liu >and his colleagues found that a laboratory-bred, Bt-resistant pink bollworm >took longer to develop into a mature adult moth than larvae feeding on non- >Bt cotton. > >The main implication of the study is that it calls into question the >'refuge strategy' of reducing or delaying the evolution of resistance to Bt >toxin," Crawley wrote. > >"If the insects develop to sexual maturity at different speeds, >interbreeding is less likely or impossible and so may well speed the >development of resistance and reduce the benefits of the GM crop." > >This is because both types of moth mate within three days of hatching and >males only live for about a week. If the new findings match what actually >happens in the field, it would mean that Bt-resistant bollworms would mate >with each other. > >Crawley pointed out that this was just one study and, on its own, was not >very significant. > >"These little studies are interesting because they show the things that >could happen but they don't resolve the problems because they don't >consider the effect over the whole life cycle (of the insect)," Crawley >told Reuters. > >He said more comprehensive studies were possible but raised the question of >who would finance them. > >........ > >Christian Science Monitor >August 5 - Are these new bio-crops safe? >Research shows gene-modified plants can produce unintended effects >Alex Salkever Special to The Christian Science Monitor > >It is an issue capturing attention from Paris to Peoria: Are genetically >altered crops safe? > >In Europe, a public backlash has forced many food companies to ban >genetically engineered products from store shelves. > >Now, however, new evidence is showing that some genetically altered crops >can cause unintended consequences - which could spur more resistance to the >booming bio-agriculture industry in the United States. The latest sign: A >study in the journal Nature that implies genetically modified cotton can >promote resistance to pesticides in a well-known - and much feared - >parasite. In the US, acceptance of the technology is widespread: Most of >the nation's wheat and corn, for example, is genetically modified. > >The research comes in the wake of a study in May showing Monarch >butterflies die after contacting pollen from genetically engineered corn. >Moreover, last week the country's largest baby food manufacturer, Gerber, >announced it would stop using genetically engineered soy and corn products >because of public concern - warranted or not - about safety. I think this >is another small piece that tells us to be conservative," says Fred Gould, >a North Carolina State University entomologist, of the news in Nature. "I >think that what we need is a lot more science and a lot less talk." > >Yet one group that is talking a lot more is environmentalists. They have >seized on the latest research to buttress their claims that genetically >engineered crops could pose a danger to people and the environment. "There >may be long term effects that we may not see for many years but could have >serious detrimental impacts on brain development and organ development," >says says Charles Margulis, a genetic issues specialist with Greenpeace. >... > > In the findings published today in Nature, researchers at the University >of Arizona document a flaw in a technique that causes plants to produce >their own natural pesticide. The study focuses on the fight against the >pink bollworm, a pest that preys on cotton. Scientists have been splicing >into cotton -as well as corn and other plants - a gene that produces a >bug-killing chemical. Organic farmers have sprayed this bacteria on crops >on rare occasions as a safer alternative to chemical treatments. > >But the pests can develop a resistance to the bacteria. To counteract this, >scientists plant genetically altered crops alongside regular crops. Under >this "refuge strategy," bollworms that eat the altered crops - and >eventually develop a resistance - will breed with bollworms that have not. >The result is a slowing of the generations of insects that inherit a >resistance. The danger > >Here's the problem: The life cycle of insects eating the genetically >engineered cotton is delayed five or six days, altering their mating >cycles. As the Arizona researchers point out, this may undermine the refuge >strategy - and thus diminish the effectiveness of the natural pesticides. >This prospect especially worries organic farmers, who often use the natural >pesticides as their last line of defense against crop-destroying pests. > >Despite these concerns, few scientists advocate a ban on the development >and use of genetically engineered crops, which farmers are already planting >in vast amounts. But some do say the bollworms and Monarchs are evidence >that a go-slow approach is warranted. "This is just one more of those >studies that shows that all the ideal assumptions are not being met," says >Mr. Gould. > >........... > >Chicago Tribune August 5 >GENETIC STEW BOILS IN BRAZIL >SOUTH AMERICAN GIANT STRUGGLES TO DECIDE WHETHER TO PLANT A GENETICALLY >MODIFIED >SOY CROP, A RISKY PROPOSITION. >By Laurie Goering Tribune Foreign Correspondent August 05, 1999 LONDRINA, >Brazil >The rolling green hills of southern Brazil, checkered with red-dirt farm >fields awaiting spring planting, don't look like an international >battleground. > >But that is what Brazil, the world's second-largest soybean producer after >the U.S., has become this season as the country struggles to decide whether >to permit the planting of genetically modified soybeans for the first time. > >Pressured by eager U.S. seed dealers, worried European consumers, >environmental opponents and Brazilian farmers eager to use the technology, >Brazil has yet to make a final ruling on the planting of what would be the >country's first genetically altered crop. Experts say the decision might >prove crucial in determining whether such crops, called transgenic, >continue their spread internationally, and even whether they continue to >thrive in the U.S. > >Brazil is critically important to the rate of biotech adoption or decline," >said Steven Sonka, an economist and agricultural strategist with the >National Soybean Research Laboratory at the University of Illinois in >Urbana-Champaign. "It will be closely watched by the rest of the world." >Transgenic soybeans-- plants engineered to resist pests or tolerate >herbicides using genes borrowed from other species--have been >enthusiastically adopted in the United States since their introduction in >1996. ... > > Fully 60 percent of the processed food products on American store shelves >contain some kind of genetically modified ingredients, food safety experts >estimate. ... > >Though Germany is among the world leaders in genetically modified crop >research, England and France have banned transgenics from supermarket >shelves and the European Union appears to be moving to prohibit the >importation of transgenic foods for at least three years, a nightmare >scenario for U.S. farmers. > >"It's a mess to say the least," said Lisa Zannoni, a biotech consultant to >the European Association of Plant Protection. Canada, the world's second >biggest biotech crop user, has half of its canola oil acreage in >transgenics and about 40 percent of its small corn crop. Argentina, the >third biggest user, has planted 20 percent of its soybean acreage in >so-called Roundup Ready soybeans, the same herbicide-resistant variety >Brazil is considering as its first transgenic. > >In India, anti-transgenic activists said angry farmers have burned fields >of genetically modified crops. China, which does not acknowledge U.S. >patents, is developing its own transgenic tobacco and tomatoes. Japan is >showing signs of following Europe's retreat from transgenics. > >Nowhere, though, is the dispute over transgenics stickier than in Brazil, >Latin America's largest nation with 160 million people and its largest >agricultural producer. > >Earlier this year, Brazil's agricultural ministry approved Monsanto's >request to begin selling Roundup Ready soybeans in Brazil, after years of >testing. > >Brazil's Institute of Consumer Defense and Institute of Environment and >Renewable Natural Resources reacted quickly > >In June, a federal judge in Brasilia reversed the approval, banning >transgenic seed until the country finishes writing more complete rules >governing the sale and use of transgenic foods. > >The judge also insisted that Monsanto present an environmental impact >statement showing that Roundup Ready soybeans will not produce any damage >to the environment or consumers. > >"This decision is a huge victory for those concerned with the impacts of >transgenics in the environment and public health," said Karen Suassuna of >Greenpeace Brazil. > >.......... > >WSJ(8/5): Bugs May Resist New Crops Faster Than Expected > >By Scott Kilman Staff Reporter, The Wall Street Journal > >University of Arizona scientists said some insects might be able to develop >resistance to the biotechnology industry's new bug-proof cotton plants more >quickly than expected. > >The peer-reviewed laboratory study, which is being published in today's >issue of the science magazine Nature, signals that some genetically >modified plants might become obsolete sooner than their inventors had >planned. Biotechnology executives were quick to challenge the study, saying >among other things that it didn't resemble actual field conditions. > >But if follow-up field studies find similar results, the Environmental >Protection Agency would likely have to change the rules that farmers must >follow in order to plant the novel crops. The EPA rules are designed to >prevent so-called "super bugs" from evolving. > >"There are some real concerns that resistance can evolve," said Bruce E. >Tabashnik, head of the Tucson-based University of Arizona's entomology >department and an author of the study. "Some strategies might need to be >changed." > >....... > >MINISTERS DOWN UNDER MANDATE BIOTECH FOOD LABLES, ALLOW LOOPHOLE > >By BobBurton CANBERRA, Australia, August 4, 1999 (ENS) > Some genetically modified foods will carry identifying labels but >Australian and New Zealand health ministers have created a loophole that >has angered consumer and environmental groups. After a tense seven-hour >meeting Wednesday, Australian and New Zealand health ministers reached a >compromise agreement that requires only some genetically modified foods to >be labelled. > >The Australian New Zealand Food Standards Council ministers have "agreed to >require mandatory labelling of foods produced using gene technology and >food in containing genetically modified ingredients." > >Chair of the Food Standards Council, Australian Senator Grant Tambling, >said that under the agreement some foods produced using gene technology >would not need to be labelled if they fall below an as yet undetermined >"threshold level" of genetically modified material. > >Australian Consumers Association Policy Officer, Mara Bun, rejects the >concept of threshold levels. "The idea of threshold levels for modified >ingredients in foods to trigger disclosure is unlikely to be accepted by >consumers. Consumers want to know absolutely, whether the foods they eat do >or don't contain even small amounts of modified ingredients or ingredients >obtained from modified plants," she said. > >"Threshold levels can be eliminated if food companies are required to audit >their supply of ingredients for genetic status. It's planned to apply this >method to qualify for a 'NON-GM' label, so it should also be used for >disclosing the presence of any GM ingredients" Bun said. > >.......... > >International Herald Tribune (Neuilly-sur-Seine, France) August 5, 1999, > >Genetically Modified Food: Alarmingly Out of Control >By Claude Martin >DATELINE: GLAND, Switzerland > >A passionate debate is under way in many countries over the use of >genetically modified foods - crops into which ''foreign'' genes are >introduced to make them resistant to pests and adverse weather conditions. >So far the main concern has been human health. But unless more research is >carried out before these crops are used, the real victim could be the >global environment. That could be a major disaster for the welfare of the >planet and its inhabitants. > >Throughout history, one of the strongest forces driving the development of >human society has been concern for health. Many fundamental scientific and >technological advances have occurred as a result of the desire to control >or eradicate disease, and to improve the quality and duration of our lives. >In the 20th century, a huge industry has grown up dedicated to the >promotion and achievement of good health and prolonged fitness. It covers >everything from drugs and medical technology to our lifestyle habits and >the food we eat. > >Most recently, a near obsession with health has led to renewed interest in >traditional medicine and in the potential of biological treasures, such as >those contained in tropical forests. These forests harbora vast array of >plant species with possible medicinal value. > >At the same time, however, the health industry and public expectations have >combined to produce new branches of science based on interference with the >fundamental materials of life. The study of genetics is not new. What is >different now is the ability of scientists to manipulate genetic material >easily for the production of drugs. - > >But genetic engineering has also responded to the other great current >theory on health, which concerns diet. The race is on to create almost >unlimited quantities of what is considered to be good, healthy and >affordable food. Here, though, genetic manipulation has run into trouble. >Fears are growing that genetically modified organisms, or GMOs, will >produce food that is itself dangerous to health. > > > > > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 14:21:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16729 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 14:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21973; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 14:04:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3.hawaii.rr.com (smtp3.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21792 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 14:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phyl - 204.210.127.75 by smtp3.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Mon, 9 Aug 1999 07:51:58 -1000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990809075545.00ca9cf0@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 08:01:59 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: Bulk Seed Needed In-Reply-To: <001e01bee28a$f8e3de80$8c9dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7660254==_.ALT" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1444 --=====================_7660254==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Friends, Anyone know where we can source reasonably priced bulk seed? We need to get about five pounds each of a good beet and carrot. We were getting Johnny's Red Ace and Scarlet Nantes, but they're out. Phyl ============================================== pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com Phyl Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. Waianae, HI 96792 808-696-1010 808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_7660254==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dear Friends,

Anyone know where we can source reasonably priced bulk seed? We need to get about five pounds each of a good beet and carrot. We were getting Johnny's Red Ace and Scarlet Nantes, but they're out.

Phyl


==============================================
pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com

Phyl Dwyer
Kahumana Farm
86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd.
Waianae, HI 96792

808-696-1010
808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_7660254==_.ALT-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 16:25:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA20783 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA01024; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mda.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00942 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:03:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.180]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990809200946.BZUF2299273.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:09:46 +1200 Message-ID: <37AF3542.7E83@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:08:34 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: heliocentric view Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1445 A BDNOW member wrote > > Subject: heliocentric point of view of Grand Cross > > Dear Glen, > > Would appreciate your view on this. It was wonderful of Julia to > point out the website on bdnow and most interesting to see the event > from the Helio point of view. But....from humanity's point of view, I > think, tell me if I am wrong, that this event is meant for us humans. > That means that, although the heliocentric view is of interest, it is > not as far as humanity is concerned. What are your thoughts? I have no doubt that heliocentric charts have relevence for humans. Being Sun centred it is just more a chart related to the spirit inside humans. They are charts of spiritual purpose and intention which wishes to arise from within us to be expressed outwards. Geocentric charts are Earth centred and relate to the humans earthly (very astral) karma (from the past) while on earth. These influence can be seen coming at or to us. Two sides to the same coin, not too dissimiliar to the polarity existing between 500 (earthly) and 501 (cosmic) The geocentric grand cross is motivating us to rebel towards individuality, while the dark forces try to contain and control humanity. The helio influences at present are the indication of the spiritual motivation to make the best possible changes out of this period. Most notably I see people wanting to be informed about things like GE and take the most moral and ethical (spiritual) position they can with regard to it. There is not rioting in the streets (geo), (as there should be) they are being informed, challenging the 'authorities' making up their minds and voting with their dollars. Organics is growing rapidly as people make inner decisions to commit to what is right. Very little fuss. Just getting inwardly clear and going for it. It is the inner calm established by the helio that will prevent the extreme drama possible in the geo chart and probably why the sharemarket is not collapsing but going flat right now. Mind you the geo chart may dominate over the next three days in the market. I watch them both similtaneously. They are one dynamic changing dominance as the planetary aspects come and go. Inner and outer, subjective/objective, spirit and matter, creativity and karma, spirit centred/astrally possessed. An individuals helio chart identifies a different almost more pure image of what they have to bring to life through their inner life, while the geo indicates the karma they need to resolve and talents they have developed through their incarnations. As we wake up from our astral possession and beome mor en-light-ened we move towards our helio chart. Those characteristic become more apparant. There is a similiar duality between tropical-signs-earthly-karma and sidereal-constellations-cosmic-spirutal. Also we can see the same thing in the Aries>>>Pisces zodiac ( earth seasonal based ) as opposed to the Cancer>>>>Leo zodiac ( cosmic/spiritual evolution based) So the geo, tropical, Aries>>Pisces chart is all about outer karma on Earth, while the Helio, sidereal,Cancer>>Leo is an image of our most inner spiritual self. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 17:07:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21813 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 17:07:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA04211; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:50:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wavecom.net (root@wave.sheridan.wy.us [206.54.116.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04008 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:47:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dbrown (sher62.wavecom.net [206.54.116.147]) by wavecom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA21887 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 14:48:39 -0600 Message-ID: <015701bee2b1$818c58e0$5e7436ce@dbrown.wavecom.net> From: "Audrey Malan" To: Subject: Re: bdnow list-serve archives Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 14:52:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0154_01BEE276.D389E300" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1446 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0154_01BEE276.D389E300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings BDers - Can someone tell me how to access the BDNow list-serve archives? =20 Hearty Thanks, Audrey ------=_NextPart_000_0154_01BEE276.D389E300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings BDers -
Can someone tell me how to access = the BDNow=20 list-serve archives? 
Hearty Thanks, = Audrey
------=_NextPart_000_0154_01BEE276.D389E300-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 18:15:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA24004 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:15:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08343; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08220 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 17:58:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.90] (pm3mbr2-166-95.intrepid.net [209.190.166.95]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA10710 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:00:58 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990809075545.00ca9cf0@pop-server> References: <001e01bee28a$f8e3de80$8c9dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 05:47:54 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: Bulk Seed Needed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1447 > Dear Friends, Anyone know where we can source reasonably priced bulk >seed? We need to get about five pounds each of a good beet and carrot. We >were getting Johnny's Red Ace and Scarlet Nantes, but they're out. Phyl >============================================== pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com Phyl >Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. Waianae, HI 96792 >808-696-1010 808-696-2020 Fax Wow! What happened? A backup at the lab?? :-) -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 18:15:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA24026 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:15:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08390; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08246 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 17:58:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.90] (pm3mbr2-166-95.intrepid.net [209.190.166.95]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA10820 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:01:25 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990809.080708.3254.2.Dirkers@juno.com> References: <37A85128.3B00@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 06:04:07 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: What Folks are Doing was: lovelgate /2 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1448 >Could you please direct me to a source of information about Eugene >Canales spading machine referred to in your last message? Many thanks. > >Christopher Dirkers >-------------------------------------- >Located in the beautiful Ozarks, Dirkers' Pleasant Valley School and Farm >is dedicated to providing nourishment for mind and body. We offer pure, >nutritionally enhanced produce, herbs, and pastured poultry. Classes >include Family Preparedness, Health & Agronomy, and Scriptural Law. > >Dirkers' Pleasant Valley School & Farm >HC62, Box 370-A Calico Rock, Arkansas. U.S.A. (72519) >870-297-8040 or dirkers@juno.com > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. Spader clinic at http://wwwlapprotecag.com Watch for fortcoming article in ACRES USA on small scale grain production equipment, a warm-up for the workshop he is doing at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference Oct 1-3 http:www.igg.com/bdnow From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 18:25:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA24146 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:25:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09039; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:10:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08832 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:07:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.90] (pm3mbr2-166-95.intrepid.net [209.190.166.95]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA12609 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:10:37 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00c201bee26b$e4272020$924b2e9c@oemcomputer> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 06:15:18 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: And then the intern said.. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1449 hmmm, what set this off? Interns are people who have some idea of WHO they want to BE and they know that to be that someone, they have to learn HOW to DO. They enter into an agreement with an experienced farmer who formally teaches them sometimes and lets them learn through their mistakes much of the rest of the time. The plus for the interns, of course, is that they are making all oftheir mistakes on someone else's investment, in someone elses 'patch.' Any "skill" is simply a collection of a finite number of steps. While I don't even know if interns want to change their inner selves, many enjoy the fact that by working with someone who has already paid the price - even if it's only a time-debt - to acquire the skills, they can hope to become skillful much sooner than if they were learning by trial-and-error. I hope my post wasn't taken as critical of the intern. It was posted in love and a wink to all those who know through their own experience that no good deed goes unpunished. -Allan igg@igg.com >The more I delve into the depths of self-improvement (and believe me folks, >I'm trying!) I find that I have very little power to change anyone but >myself. It is so difficult to remember that, as one encounters the apparent >inadequacies of others, their faults, stupidities, mistakes & downright >annoying, and even at times, threatening behaviors...I was taught by a >wonderful master, that everyone is exactly where they need to be for their >stage of development & evolution...emotionally, spiritually, mentally. > >I'm trying to remember to chant..."I can only change myself" > >When I actualize & practice this, everything around me changes. > >Love Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 18:56:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA25427 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:56:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA13385; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fep8.mail.ozemail.net (fep8.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.102]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13189 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:40:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (slmlb5p49.ozemail.com.au [210.84.130.49]) by fep8.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA12404 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:42:59 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <004501bee2b7$448aeb40$318254d2@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: References: Subject: Re: Mid-Atlantic BD Conference Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:33:51 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1450 Dear Friends Timing is EVERYTHING - studying the BD conference brochure rapturously I realised that it is on the weekend before I am going to be in New York ( for the Hunger Project's Africa Prize), and joy I can change my ticket from OZ without much cost. Please help.. Would it be a good plan to overnight in New York, leave most of my luggage there and travel by train - I have no idea of the time frame? Should I plan on arriving Thursday and depart Monday? Any good advice welcome. Herbal Teas Wanted I have friend who requires commercial quantities of BD or Organic Herbal Teas. Urgently wanting Passiflora / Passsionflower. You could respond directly to Leslie Renascent_ICIS@bigpond.com In anticipation, Gwenda From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 19:39:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA25967 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA15673; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:24:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from connection.com (venice.connection.com [204.138.111.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA15556 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from staceyia (pm4-35.connection.com [216.13.30.35]) by connection.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA07534 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:29:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001701bee2c0$075baf80$231e0dd8@staceyia> From: "Stacey & Ian" To: Subject: Re: Mid-Atlantic BD Conference Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:36:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1451 Hello all, I am relatively new to the Biodynamic scene and don't know about the BD conference! When and where is it? Could someone pass on the details! Thanks so much, STacey -----Original Message----- From: Gwenda Robb To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, August 09, 1999 6:48 PM Subject: Re: Mid-Atlantic BD Conference >Dear Friends >Timing is EVERYTHING - studying the BD conference brochure rapturously I >realised that it is on the weekend before I am going to be in New York for >the Hunger Project's Africa Prize), and joy I can change my ticket from OZ >without much cost. Please help.. Would it be a good plan to overnight in New >York, leave most of my luggage there and travel by train - I have no idea of >the time frame? Should I plan on arriving Thursday and depart Monday? Any >good advice welcome. > >Herbal Teas Wanted >I have friend who requires commercial quantities of BD or Organic Herbal >Teas. Urgently wanting Passiflora / Passsionflower. You could respond >directly to Leslie Renascent_ICIS@bigpond.com > >In anticipation, >Gwenda > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 21:39:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA28696 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 21:39:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21073; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 21:20:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA21029 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 21:19:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.13] (max10-5.stc.net [208.210.135.133]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA07177 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 21:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 14:19:57 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Corn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1452 >Corn, not the heirloom Lovel variety, but real open-pollinated 'sweet' >white corn (from SoC): > >can anyone give me a few pointers on it, BD and otherwise? > >We're up to the silk and tassle stage. The beds were well composed and then >'mulched' with good compost. Do I need to routinely add 'nitrogen'? And >from what source(s), seaweed? fish? compost tea? ? > >What about water? It's a drought here. The unirrigated fields are dying >down, or have already burned out. I've got drip to this corn. Other than >causing lodging, can I give the corn TOO MUCH water? > >What about dealing with cornborers and such? > >Any suggestions from your reading or experience would be appreciated. > >Thanks > >-Allan >igg@igg.com Dear Allan, The mainest thing is applying BD preps and especially don't forget the horn clay. I've sent my supply to Hugh Courtney at JPI in case anyone needs some. By broadcasting horn clay with my field broadcaster (cosmic pipes) I've found the upward working silica forces really get into the corn and make it grow and fruit better than I've ever seen before. Horn Clay really ties all the preps together. Before using it I would never have guessed its power to make things grow and particularly to keep growing in the development and ripening of fruit and seed. As part of a sequential spray sequence, horn clay should be sprayed on the soil's surface (not on foliage) in the evening following 500 and 501. As far as what part of the solar system horn clay represents, it is the heliopause, the outer bounds of the solar system. This has only recently been discovered by astronomers. It is the skin-like outermost region of the solar vortex that holds the activities of the solar family within it and passes the expansive energies of what we call the "widest reaches of the cosmos" into the solar system, the earth, and growing plants. With horn clay we create the skin or outer integument of the farm organism which holds the vitality of the farm in and allows it to build up--and which also protects from damaging influences like fallout and pollution. Harvey Lisle pointed out to us 11 or 12 years ago at either my first or second BD conference here in Blairsville that we shouldn't spray 500 or 501 by themselves. They should be sprayed as a pair in order to maintain balanced forces. That way insects and diseases (both symptoms of too much digestion) are not stimulated by a lone application of 500, and neither is premature blossoming and ripening without filling out of fruit stimulated by lone application of 501. Now with horn clay I find that 500 and 501 shouldn't be applied without also applying horn clay, since their energies dissipate much too easily without the horn clay and in effect what happens is you waste much of the power of the 500 and 501. Biodynamic preparations are much more potent than most people realize. Best, Hugh Lovel ***** Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 9 21:58:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29106 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 21:58:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA22238; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 21:44:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22111 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 21:41:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.124] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.124]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FG800F4H3J7CQ@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:18:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 18:26:35 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: bdnow list-serve archives In-reply-to: <015701bee2b1$818c58e0$5e7436ce@dbrown.wavecom.net> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1453 > Greetings BDers - Can someone tell me how to access the BDNow list-serve archives? Hearty Thanks, Audrey http://csf.Colorado.EDU/perma/biodynamics/ Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 10 00:15:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA01694 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 00:15:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA27587; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 00:01:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27323 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 23:57:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.90] (pm3mbr4-166-188.intrepid.net [209.190.166.188]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA09251 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 00:00:09 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004501bee2b7$448aeb40$318254d2@default> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:57:33 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Mid-Atlantic BD Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1454 >Dear Friends >Timing is EVERYTHING - studying the BD conference brochure rapturously I >realised that it is on the weekend before I am going to be in New York ( for >the Hunger Project's Africa Prize), and joy I can change my ticket from OZ >without much cost. Please help.. Would it be a good plan to overnight in New >York, leave most of my luggage there and travel by train - I have no idea of >the time frame? Should I plan on arriving Thursday and depart Monday? Any >good advice welcome. > >Herbal Teas Wanted >I have friend who requires commercial quantities of BD or Organic Herbal >Teas. Urgently wanting Passiflora / Passsionflower. You could respond >directly to Leslie Renascent_ICIS@bigpond.com > >In anticipation, >Gwenda That would work great, Gwenda. Rooms are available at Claymont for Thursday night and there are rooms available for Sunday night (even if Joey Korn's Monday dowsing workshop is a sell-out!) Train arrives at HARPERS FERRY, WV after a changeover at Washington, DC. Looking forward to seeing you in October! -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 10 00:15:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA01701 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 00:15:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA27629; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 00:01:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27334 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 23:57:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.90] (pm3mbr4-166-188.intrepid.net [209.190.166.188]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA09260 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 00:00:14 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001701bee2c0$075baf80$231e0dd8@staceyia> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:04:23 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Mid-Atlantic BD Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1455 >Hello all, >I am relatively new to the Biodynamic scene and don't know about the BD >conference! When and where is it? Could someone pass on the details! > >Thanks so much, >STacey Dear Stacey - There are four BD conferences that I know of in the US this fall. The only one I'm prepared to speak about it the one that I organize for BD Now! that's known as the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference and is held in a 19th century mansion built by descendents of George Washington on what is now a 360 acre biodynamic farm outside of Washington DC in the Eastern West Virginia panhandle. It's an amazing conference, covering issues much broader than normally thought of as being 'biodynamic.' Some of the best minds in biodynamics will be there, as well as some incredible chefs for preparing biodynamic produce in dishes that you'll never forget. The initial brochure is at http://www.igg.com/bdnow The 1999 www page will be completed in a little while. Look at the 1998 conference www page (avail. from the BD Now! menu at the address above) to get a better idea of how informative and fun this conference is. Tooting my own horn, -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 10 10:20:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11060 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17678; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:05:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acc.haverford.edu (acc.haverford.edu [165.82.1.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17532 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:03:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [165.82.19.116] (s116.magill.haverford.edu [165.82.19.116]) by acc.haverford.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA03168 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:02:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <001701bee2c0$075baf80$231e0dd8@staceyia> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:05:28 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Bruce Bumbarger Subject: Re: Mid-Atlantic BD Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1456 Allan & Stacey: I think there are actually at least five conferences this fall. Hugh Lovel is having one at the beginning of September (details mentioned on the list within the last few days); just got a mailing about one Jeff Poppen is having one in Red Boiling Springs,Tennessee the weekend of September 17; the BDA is sponsoring one September 24 - 26, 1999 in Fair Oaks, CA (http://www.biodynamics.com/calendar.html); there's your's the first weekend of October; and another BDA event for those on the East Coast October 8 - 10, 1999 at Spring Valley, NY(see the calendar above). I'll see about posting more details about Jeff's in the next day or so. People may also be interested in a short (one evening and following day) workshop on nutrition and whole foods with Sally Fallon and Thomas Cowan, September 17 and 18 at Camphill Village, Kimberton PA. Organized by Edie Griffiths (Seven Stars BD Yogurt) and Deb Falkenberg of Camphil Village. I'll try to post more details on that also. Looks like there's something for everybody. Bruce >>Hello all, >>I am relatively new to the Biodynamic scene and don't know about the BD >>conference! When and where is it? Could someone pass on the details! >> >>Thanks so much, >>STacey > > >Dear Stacey - There are four BD conferences that I know of in the US this >fall. >-Allan Balliett >igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 10 10:37:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11394 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:36:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18727; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:22:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18544 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:19:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.90] (pm3mbr3-166-135.intrepid.net [209.190.166.135]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14568 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:22:05 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <001701bee2c0$075baf80$231e0dd8@staceyia> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:26:39 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Mid-Atlantic BD Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1457 Please do keep BD NOW! posted on upcoming BD events, Bruce. I didn't know anything about the Sally Fallon event organized by E. Giffiths at 7 Stars. 7 Stars has always been a solid supporter of the Mid-Atlantic conference. Their dairy prodcuts are impeccable! Sally made butter from their cream last year and always raves about it! Thanks again! -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 10 17:18:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24588 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:18:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA19036; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:59:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA18799 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip069.computer.net [140.186.252.69]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA17490 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:59:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:59:55 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re:( For those who use the Preps: JPI Recommendations) On the Eve of the Solar Eclipse Message-ID: <34CD66A6BEAE22B6852567C9006F7650.00709F74852567C9@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1458 Thanks for the update on the sequential spray info, Allan! The earth here is so dry that it causes such sorrow. Many creatures are coming out looking for water: woodchucks, deer, rats, skunks galore, and rabbits! We have a pair of sibling fawns, still with their spots grazing the yard each day. The smell of fire is often in the air from nearby forest fires. The weather is still totally weird and unpredictable: unseasonable is the operative word whether to desribe the heat or the cool temperatures. Whacked out is what I call it! Hope for the week: forecast for 'real' rain! May you all have 'brainstorms' & inspired hearts during the darkening of the light and emerge, victorious(!)--dropping that which has outlived it's usefulness and embracing change and the spirit! Best Regards, Jane Sherry Due North of NYC From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 10 19:18:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA27065 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 19:18:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA26283; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:59:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alpha.vaxxine.com (alpha.vaxxine.com [209.5.212.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26141 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pc.vaxxine.com (ppp57.digi-t3.st-cath.niagara.net [209.5.215.57]) by alpha.vaxxine.com (8.9.2/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA27303 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:59:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990810185858.00825240@vaxxine.com> X-Sender: laura_s@vaxxine.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:58:58 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Laura Sabourin Subject: Re: organic grapes and ashing for birds In-Reply-To: <199908101600.MAA27616@envirolink.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1459 My first crop of biodynamically certified organic grapes is hanging in my vineyard. Clouds of birds are hanging over head ! Mostly swallows, all looking very hungery. I have a bird banger (propane powered device that sounds like a shotgun) the birds would likely roost on it if it wasn't round. Any suggestions ? has anyone tried ashing for this ? if so does anyone have bird ash available or advice on how to make some >> fast << !)(* Laura Sabourin Feast of Fields Inc Biodynamically Certified Organic Vineyard http://www.ragdolls.net/vineyard.htm Ragenesque Ragdoll Cattery http://www.ragdolls.net/ragenesq.htm R R # 1 St Catharines, Ontario L2R 6P7 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 10 20:58:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA29105 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:58:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03536; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:44:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coyote.rain.org (postfix@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03430 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:41:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sals (mp111.nc.rain.org [198.68.145.111]) by coyote.rain.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4A7206174A for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <008601bee392$fd79c960$6f9144c6@rain.org> From: "Sal" To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990810185858.00825240@vaxxine.com> Subject: Re: organic grapes and ashing for birds Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:46:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1460 I did not know swallows eat grapes around here they eat bugs . lots of them.. they get rid of a lot of bugs I want them around. what luck. they come here every year just as the fly get bad and fly around all day with their mouths open getting bugs. never seen one eat a grape check out a organic growers web page http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Laura Sabourin To: Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 3:58 PM Subject: Re: organic grapes and ashing for birds > My first crop of biodynamically certified organic grapes is hanging in my > vineyard. Clouds of birds are hanging over head ! Mostly swallows, all > looking very hungery. I have a bird banger (propane powered device that > sounds like a shotgun) the birds would likely roost on it if it wasn't round. > > Any suggestions ? has anyone tried ashing for this ? if so does anyone have > bird ash available or advice on how to make some >> fast << !)(* > > > > > Laura Sabourin > Feast of Fields Inc > Biodynamically Certified Organic Vineyard > http://www.ragdolls.net/vineyard.htm > Ragenesque Ragdoll Cattery http://www.ragdolls.net/ragenesq.htm > R R # 1 > St Catharines, Ontario L2R 6P7 > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 00:43:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA10741 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:43:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15318; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:28:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15077 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.49] (pm3mbr1-166-49.intrepid.net [209.190.166.49]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA13353; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:27:39 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:32:06 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: BD Now! On the Air Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1461 To All you wonderful souls who have written about missing the shoe Saturday and the even more who have written about not being able to find it: In a scene reminiscent of the life of Larry A. Rotheraine, BD Now! was not aired on the Liberty Radio Network's "Living on the Land: People, Nature and Community" program because the collapse of the entire phone service in Jefferson County, WV would not allow the program engineers to make a connection with me for the 1 hr 'interview.' Witness: >Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 17:39:21 -0400 (EDT) >From: Intrepid Support Account >X-Sender: support@loki >To: users@intrepid.net >Subject: Outage in Jefferson Co. WV >MIME-Version: 1.0 > > >Saturday afternoon, from about 11:00AM until 4:00PM, Jefferson Co. WV >suffered massive outages in it's phone service: all data lines going >into and out of the Shepherdstown were down; there was no long >distance service into and out of the county; many local phones were >out; 911 service did not function. > >While these problems were not Specific to Intrepid, our service was >adversely affected by this outage. Local customers could not log in. >Customers who were in other locations could not check or send email, >nor could they access Web sites hosted by Intrepid. Dedicated access >customers in the Shepherdstown area lost connectivity. To make matters >worse, all of out telephone lines were down, so we had no way of >letting our customers know that there was a problem. > >As of 5:00pm, the telephone company has corrected most of the >problems and all Intrepid services are restored. We apologize for any >inconvenience that this may have caused. > >A technical note: if you were able to login during the outage but were >unable to "surf the web" (that is, connect to remote sites like >Yahoo), there is a configuration change that you can make to your >computer to help mitigate loss of connectivity in this type of >situation. You can set up your computer to use "server assigned name >server address." The exact way that this is done varies depending >upon the operating system that you have. For example, in Windows 95 >this is specified in the properties of your Intrepid connection (under >Server Type-> TCP/IP Settings). If you have any questions, feel free >to call our technical support staff and they will be able to walk you >though the procedure. > >We'd like to thank you for choosing Intrepid as your Internet Service >Provider, and again apologize for any inconvenience this may have >caused. > >Thank-you, > >Intrepid Support Of all the wondeful indignities in the world, a tape of an earlier conversation with Sonic Bloom mogol Dan Carlson was played in place of a live chat with yours truly. This coming Saturday, the father of effective ecological agricultureand founder of ACRES USA, CHuck Walters will be interviewed. I'm scheduled for the 21st, but am actually going to be at PATAGONIA in Geogetown, along with Nora of the all certified restaurant fame, letting city people see what a real organic farmer looks like, so, it may be a while before BD Now! really is on the air! (But I'll keep you posted!) -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 07:30:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA15577 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:30:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA26177; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:16:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA26129 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.116] (pm3mbr3-166-116.intrepid.net [209.190.166.116]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA17618 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:18:53 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:23:01 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Master Dowser JOEY KORN at Mid-Atlantic BD Conf. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1462 An inspirational sensation at the '98 conference, we're happy to welcome back dowser and energy worker, Joey Korn. Here's some bio info on Joey and descriptions of some of his workshops: Joey Korn Joey Korn is an internationally known dowser, energy worker, and author who has made many discoveries about how we work in partnership with Nature to create our own unique energy realities. He has been passionately on his spiritual path for 25 years and has been dowsing for 13 years. Joey reveals his insights in his lectures, his workshops, and in his book, Dowsing: A Path to Enlightenment. Tools for Empowerment- Joey had his first major mystical experience in 1974, which is what started him on a quest for tools that we each have at our disposal to transform ourselves into the unlimited spiritual beings that we truly are. Joey will share how deep relaxation and meditation, the teachings of Walter Russell, and dowsing combined with prayer can help you grow spiritually and align you with your true Life Purpose. He will also show you how you can work directly with Nature to create beneficial energy environments for your garden, your farm, and for the health and well being of your family. Working With the Forces- In this hands-on workshop, Joey will teach you to dowse for the beneficial and detrimental energies (forces) in your living environment, as well as in your garden or on your farm. You'll learn to change the beneficial energies into detrimental energies and bring in new beneficial energies for yourself, for your family, or for you crops. For more information on the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference: http://www.igg.com/bdnow From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 07:40:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA15663 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:40:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA26762; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:26:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA26552 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:23:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.116] (pm3mbr3-166-116.intrepid.net [209.190.166.116]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA18475 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:26:28 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:31:03 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Horn Clay at JPI (Not!) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1463 Just FYI: I talked for a while with JPI director and biodynamic legend Hugh Courtney yesterday. It appears that while he has a lot of horn clay in the ground (and more to be placed later!), he does NOT have enough horn clay from UAI, etc, to currently supply the BD community. He also expressed somewhat of a concern that the UNIT SIZE of horn clay is not actually established. (ie how much do you stir and how far can you spread it.) He's working on both issues, of course. Hugh also told me that, to his knowledge, the fellow in NZ (John Priestly?) is NOT using horn clay, but is actually stirring unpotentized clay with his BD 500. (I'm waiting to hear more from NZ on this one!) Hugh is a big supporter of horn clay research. Apparently he's advocated a clay-based prep for years now. -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 10:01:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17805 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:01:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03178; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03065 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:45:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.01021447@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 9:45:31 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 11 Aug 99 09:48:26 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 11 Aug 99 09:48:10 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:48:10 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: And then the intern said.. Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <00c201bee26b$e4272020$924b2e9c@oemcomputer> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <762E1185E7A@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1464 > I hope my post wasn't taken as critical of the intern. It was posted in > love and a wink to all those who know through their own experience that no > good deed goes unpunished. > > -Allan > igg@igg.com Just thought I'd share a memory from my intern days. You can call it, "and then the farmer said..." It was my first day on the farm, and my husband (who barely even spoke English at the time) came with me to work. This farmer waved his hand vaguely toward a bed and told my husband to "weed it." Only when my husband had just finished pulling out a few clumps of dried, messy "weeds," said farmer came rushing over is four-alarm panic, screeming "noooooooo!!!" You see, my husband had "weeded" the beloved parsely that had been lovingly tended for months in order to collect the seeds. It was a bad moment for all of us. But how could my husgand (or anyone else either unfamiliar with the garden or a flawless mind reader) have known? Said farmer was famous for his vague requests (often accompanied by even vaguer "over there" hand gestures, usually later followed by frustrated criticism). Btw, this is relatively well-known bd farmer that many of you undoubtedly know. Interns say and do a lot of goofy things, but their leaders are not always much better. (But this doesn't mean I'm not looking forward to more installments of "And then the intern said..." Bring it on!) Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 10:25:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA18728 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:25:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04489; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04398 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:10:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0102190F@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:10:17 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 11 Aug 99 10:13:12 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 11 Aug 99 10:12:43 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:12:43 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: detrimental energies Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <76349DD3456@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1465 > You'll learn to > change the beneficial energies into detrimental energies and bring in new > beneficial energies for yourself, for your family, or for you crops. Just curious, why would one want to change beneficial energies into detrimental energies? Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 10:35:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA18890 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:35:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05097; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:21:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04947 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:20:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d145.infoserve.net [199.175.157.145]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA16436 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000f01bee405$b8580c20$919dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: and the intern's intern.... Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:27:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01BEE3CA.F0F5EBA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1466 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BEE3CA.F0F5EBA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While I was "interning" in the dry-subtropics of Hawaii and Kahumana = on O'Ahu, a friend came to help out for a few weeks. I had started a = herbal circle, complete with comfrey, dandelion, etc. The dandelion = grows only in the mountains and the comfrey was being nurtured for = months. Comfrey is often fed to chickens back home in British Columbia, = Canada. One morning, I found that the comfrey was gone. She had fed it = to the chickens. She had not known that in this hot dry climate it = takes months to grow it what normally takes a week back in BC. However, another good story enfolded later that year. I planted = cherry tomatos even though I was told the Japanese beetle would take = good care of it. Our cook planted cucumbers, but, they turned out to be = pickling cucs. But, luckily, they were there, for the Japenese beetles = ate the pickling cucs completely inside out and left my wonderful cherry = tomatos completely alone. That is what I call Companion Planting! M. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BEE3CA.F0F5EBA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  While I was = "interning"=20 in the dry-subtropics of Hawaii and Kahumana on O'Ahu, a friend came to = help out=20 for a few weeks.  I had started a herbal circle, complete with = comfrey,=20 dandelion, etc.  The dandelion grows only in the mountains and the = comfrey=20 was being nurtured for months.  Comfrey is often fed to chickens = back home=20 in British Columbia, Canada.  One morning, I found that the comfrey = was=20 gone.  She had fed it to the chickens.  She had not known that = in this=20 hot dry climate it takes months to grow it what normally takes a week = back in=20 BC.
  However, = another good story=20 enfolded later that year.  I planted cherry tomatos even though I = was told=20 the Japanese beetle would take good care of it.  Our cook planted=20 cucumbers, but, they turned out to be pickling cucs. But, luckily,=20 they were there, for the Japenese beetles ate the = pickling cucs completely inside out and left my wonderful cherry = tomatos=20 completely alone.  That is what I call Companion=20 Planting!
M.
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BEE3CA.F0F5EBA0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 11:11:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA19695 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07603; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:57:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07242 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 208.13.204.81 (dial-81-MAX-BTVT-06.ramp.together.net [208.13.204.81]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA31855 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:47:28 -0400 Message-ID: <37B1A047.15FD@together.net> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:09:49 -0500 From: Lisa Mccrory Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: another workshop FYI References: <001701bee2c0$075baf80$231e0dd8@staceyia> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1467 One more workshop to add: Sally Fallon will be running a workshop in Nashua , NH on Saturday, October 16 from 8:30am-4pm. The title of the workshop is: 'Surprising Facts about Nourishing Traditional Diets and How to Change Your Diet for the Better'. For more info, contact Stephanie Brooks at (603)882-2663. -Lisa McCrory Vermont Bruce Bumbarger wrote: > > Allan & Stacey: > I think there are actually at least five conferences this fall. Hugh Lovel > is having one at the beginning of September (details mentioned on the list > within the last few days); just got a mailing about one Jeff Poppen is > having one in Red Boiling Springs,Tennessee the weekend of September 17; > the BDA is sponsoring one September 24 - 26, 1999 in Fair Oaks, CA > (http://www.biodynamics.com/calendar.html); there's your's the first > weekend of October; and another BDA event for those on the East Coast > October 8 - 10, 1999 at Spring Valley, NY(see the calendar above). I'll see > about posting more details about Jeff's in the next day or so. > People may also be interested in a short (one evening and following day) > workshop on nutrition and whole foods with Sally Fallon and Thomas Cowan, > September 17 and 18 at Camphill Village, Kimberton PA. Organized by Edie > Griffiths (Seven Stars BD Yogurt) and Deb Falkenberg of Camphil Village. > I'll try to post more details on that also. > Looks like there's something for everybody. > Bruce > > >>Hello all, > >>I am relatively new to the Biodynamic scene and don't know about the BD > >>conference! When and where is it? Could someone pass on the details! > >> > >>Thanks so much, > >>STacey > > > > > >Dear Stacey - There are four BD conferences that I know of in the US this > >fall. > >-Allan Balliett > >igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 11:31:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20459 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:31:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09103; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:18:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08883 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:15:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts3-32.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.203.96]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA29487 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000d01bee40c$b97a67e0$60cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: Subject: So Where y'at... Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 06:26:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1468 ...with Michael and Amanda and life in general? We're about to have our second calf in 10 days. The first, Danny Two, is running about his enclosure, happy as a clam and black as the hinges on the gates of hell; the second, from home cow Bessie, is on her (!) way, as Bessie has a mucous discharge this morning and is "officially" due tomorrow. What fun! I just got a 1,000' roll of poly rope electric "wire" (1/4" poly rope with 6 fine wires embedded in it) for temporary fencing...so tired of working with odd bits of hard wire. This seems far superior to the typical poly stuff, which is about 1/8" poly twine with 3 wires embedded. We could do so much more with rotational grazing if we were better equipped in this sphere. Do you have an ETA for M&A? Do you have clear understanding with him on finances and work? W ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 4:23 PM Subject: Master Dowser JOEY KORN at Mid-Atlantic BD Conf. > An inspirational sensation at the '98 conference, we're happy to welcome > back dowser and energy worker, Joey Korn. Here's some bio info on Joey and > descriptions of some of his workshops: > > Joey Korn > > Joey Korn is an internationally known dowser, energy worker, and author who > has made many discoveries about how we work in partnership with Nature to > create our own unique energy realities. He has been passionately on his > spiritual path for 25 years and has been dowsing for 13 years. Joey reveals > his insights in his lectures, his workshops, and in his book, Dowsing: A > Path to Enlightenment. > > Tools for Empowerment- Joey had his first major mystical experience in 1974, > which is what started him on a quest for tools that we each have at our > disposal to transform ourselves into the unlimited spiritual beings that we > truly are. Joey will share how deep relaxation and meditation, the > teachings of Walter Russell, and dowsing combined with prayer can help you > grow spiritually and align you with your true Life Purpose. He will also > show you how you can work directly with Nature to create beneficial energy > environments for your garden, your farm, and for the health and well being > of your family. > > Working With the Forces- In this hands-on workshop, Joey will teach you to > dowse for the beneficial and detrimental energies (forces) in your living > environment, as well as in your garden or on your farm. You'll learn to > change the beneficial energies into detrimental energies and bring in new > beneficial energies for yourself, for your family, or for you crops. > > For more information on the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming > Conference: http://www.igg.com/bdnow > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 12:14:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21522 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12569; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12467 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.16.197]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:02:23 +0100 Message-ID: <37B19E63.58F6@cwcom.net> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:01:39 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ( For those who use the Preps: JPI Recommendations) On the Eve of the Solar Eclipse References: <34CD66A6BEAE22B6852567C9006F7650.00709F74852567C9@webcity> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1469 Dear Jane - we didn't so much want rain, here in SW Britain, but until mid-day today we in South Wales (97% total eclipse at around 11:15 BST) and all the folks who had travelled to Cornwall to be on the path of totality had a heavily overcast sky with occasional showers. All I saw of the great event was a thin sliver of sun just before occultation, and then a similar sliver after, through a partial cloud-break for a couple of seconds each time. This afternoon, of course, the cloud cleared and we enjoyed the light of a perfectly normal sun. I look forward to the next one in 2090. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 12:17:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21600 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12858; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12580 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.01023304@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:00:24 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 11 Aug 99 12:03:19 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 11 Aug 99 12:03:13 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:03:13 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: OFF: fevers Priority: normal In-reply-to: <37B1A047.15FD@together.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <76521664160@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1470 Hello All, Could somebody out there give me the anthroposophical low down on childhood fevers? I definately remember learning that they play a very important part in child development and should not always be eliminated through use of aspirin and such as modern people are wont to do, but I can't remember much more. Several dear friends recently have been suffering over the recurring bouts of fevers in their children, and I want to share with them this other perspective, but I need more info to be more articulate and convincing. Hope one or more of you know what I'm talking about. Thanks, Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 12:21:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21644 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:21:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13130; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:07:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3.hawaii.rr.com (smtp3.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13019 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phyl - 204.210.127.75 by smtp3.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Wed, 11 Aug 1999 05:54:35 -1000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990811053817.00cb3270@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 05:56:56 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: Re: So Where y'at... In-Reply-To: <000d01bee40c$b97a67e0$60cb6cce@netacc.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1953213==_.ALT" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1471 --=====================_1953213==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >....I just got a 1,000' roll of poly rope electric "wire" (1/4" poly >rope with 6 fine wires embedded in it) for temporary fencing...so tired of >working with odd bits of hard wire. This seems far superior to the typical >poly stuff, which is about 1/8" poly twine with 3 wires embedded. We could >do so much more with rotational grazing if we were better equipped in this >sphere. Woody, Where'd you get the improved larger diameter poly wire? Do you still run three lengths of wire to comprise a fence? What kind of reel and stakes are you using? Congrats on the new born calve(s)! Phyl ============================================== pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com Phyl Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. Waianae, HI 96792 808-696-1010 808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_1953213==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" >....I just got a 1,000' roll of poly rope electric "wire" (1/4" poly
>rope with 6 fine wires embedded in it) for temporary fencing...so tired of
>working with odd bits of hard wire.  This seems far superior to the typical
>poly stuff, which is about 1/8" poly twine with 3 wires embedded.  We could
>do so much more with rotational grazing if we were better equipped in this
>sphere.

Woody,

Where'd you get the improved larger diameter poly wire? Do you still run three lengths of wire to comprise a fence? What kind of reel and stakes are you using?

Congrats on the new born calve(s)!

Phyl


==============================================
pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com

Phyl Dwyer
Kahumana Farm
86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd.
Waianae, HI 96792

808-696-1010
808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_1953213==_.ALT-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 12:28:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21812 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:28:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13782; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cougar.ssi.stratus.com (cougar.ssi.stratus.com [198.97.42.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13668 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:13:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by cougar.ssi.stratus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13286 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:14:46 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37B19E63.58F6@cwcom.net> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:14:45 -0400 (EDT) Organization: Society for Real Time Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Charlie Hodgson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ( For those who use the Preps: JPI Recommendations) On the E Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1472 On 11-Aug-99 Tony Nelson-Smith wrote: > look forward to the next one in 2090. I thought that the eclipse cycle was 223 lunar months, which would give you the same eclipse in roughly 17 years. Charlie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 12:49:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA22220 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:49:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16134; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:35:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16012 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:34:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from laquerencia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EHRM25JW; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:33:31 EDT To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:34:37 -0500 Subject: Re: OFF: fevers Message-ID: <19990811.113438.4702.3.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: <76521664160@agecon.uga.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,11-12,20-27,29-44 From: Deborah M Byron Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1473 Hi Anita, From what I've learned from anthro nurses and doctors, fevers in children should very rarely be suppressed. Of course, the gauge for concern should be the child's mother--if she is frightened, it is probably time to break the fever. This can be accomplished by pulling the fever down out of the head, where the real danger to the body is, by placing thin slices of lemon onto the soles of the child's feet and then wrapping the feet with layers of cloth--I believe the sequence is silk next to the skin, then cotton, then wool. I've heard from many sources that this is very fast-acting and very effective at lowering even extremely high temperatures. Fevers are actually beneficial because during a good high fever changes in the genetic structure can take place, so that the physical organism can be molded into what the child needs. Even as adults, I'm sure many of us have experienced the sense of cleansing and alignment after a fever (if you're lucky enough to have one). When I feel an illness coming on I always try to induce a fever with a hot bath or a sauna but, because I was raised having most fever suppressed, its more and more difficult as time goes on to generate one when its needed. Hope this helps, Deborah On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:03:13 EST5EDT "Anita Graf (Staff)" writes: >Hello All, > >Could somebody out there give me the anthroposophical low down on >childhood fevers? I definately remember learning that they play a >very important part in child development and should not always be >eliminated through use of aspirin and such as modern people are wont >to do, but I can't remember much more. Several dear friends recently >have been suffering over the recurring bouts of fevers in their >children, and I want to share with them this other perspective, but I >need more info to be more articulate and convincing. Hope one or >more of you know what I'm talking about. > >Thanks, >Anita > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 12:56:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA22809 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:56:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16888; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16686 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:40:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts4-32.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.203.145]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA02887 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <005901bee418$a2b56ee0$60cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <4.1.19990811053817.00cb3270@pop-server> Subject: Re: So Where y'at... Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:43:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0056_01BEE3DD.F1535340" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1474 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BEE3DD.F1535340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phil: We're operating on a small scale here, so I don't bother with a real, = just stick a steel rod through the holes in the spool it comes on. Yes, = the 1/4" polyrope seems much superior to the thin polytwine, which, IMO = is an abomination. I've used the latter in several places I've worked = and it doesn't hold tension; the thin conductors break unbeknownst to = the farmer and the break is not easy to find. I'm hoping the polyrope, = being several times larger, will also be several times more reliable. = Available from NASCO Farm Supply, 1-800-558-9595. Two wires seems = sufficient for our rather docile animals. The bull used to clear two = wires when he took a notion, but then he would have cleared three too. = The bull is no longer with us...well, he's with us, but pretty = thoroughly chilled down. Woody ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Phyl Dwyer=20 To: bdnow@envirolink.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 8:56 AM Subject: Re: So Where y'at... >....I just got a 1,000' roll of poly rope electric "wire" (1/4" poly >rope with 6 fine wires embedded in it) for temporary fencing...so = tired of >working with odd bits of hard wire. This seems far superior to the = typical >poly stuff, which is about 1/8" poly twine with 3 wires embedded. We = could >do so much more with rotational grazing if we were better equipped in = this >sphere. Woody, Where'd you get the improved larger diameter poly wire? Do you still = run three lengths of wire to comprise a fence? What kind of reel and = stakes are you using? Congrats on the new born calve(s)! Phyl = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com Phyl Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. Waianae, HI 96792 808-696-1010 808-696-2020 Fax=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BEE3DD.F1535340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Phil:
 
We're operating on a small scale here, so I don't = bother with=20 a real, just stick a steel rod through the holes in the spool it comes = on. =20 Yes, the 1/4" polyrope seems much superior to the thin polytwine, which, = IMO is=20 an abomination.  I've used the latter in several places I've worked = and it=20 doesn't hold tension; the thin conductors break unbeknownst to the = farmer and=20 the break is not easy to find.  I'm hoping the polyrope, being = several=20 times larger, will also be several times more reliable.  Available = from=20 NASCO Farm Supply, 1-800-558-9595.  Two wires seems sufficient for = our=20 rather docile animals.  The bull used to clear two wires when he = took a=20 notion, but then he would have cleared three too.  The bull is no = longer=20 with us...well, he's with us, but pretty thoroughly chilled = down.
 
Woody
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Phyl=20 Dwyer
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, = 1999 8:56=20 AM
Subject: Re: So Where = y'at...

>....I just got a 1,000' roll of poly = rope=20 electric "wire" (1/4" poly
>rope with 6 fine wires embedded in = it) for=20 temporary fencing...so tired of
>working with odd bits of hard=20 wire.  This seems far superior to the typical
>poly stuff, = which is=20 about 1/8" poly twine with 3 wires embedded.  We could
>do = so much=20 more with rotational grazing if we were better equipped in=20 this
>sphere.

Woody,

Where'd you get the improved = larger=20 diameter poly wire? Do you still run three lengths of wire to comprise = a=20 fence? What kind of reel and stakes are you using?

Congrats on = the new=20 born calve(s)!

Phyl


=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com

Phyl Dwyer
Kahumana Farm
86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd.
Waianae, HI 96792

808-696-1010
808-696-2020 Fax ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BEE3DD.F1535340-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 14:10:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA27724 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22329; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:56:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mda.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22167 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:53:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.215]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990811175851.VYKA2478302.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 05:58:51 +1200 Message-ID: <37B1B9CB.314B@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 05:58:35 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: fevers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1475 Anita Fevers are the childs EGO attempting to free themselves from the hereditary body they have got from their parents. It might be interesting to note that if fevers have increased of late that the planetary stuff present lately ie Saturn sqr Uranus and opposed MArs is very much about liberation from restriction especially from authority figures. If this EGO incarnation phase can not take place ie suppression of fevers, then the child will have to make the same 'growth journey' later in life, most probably during future Saturn cycles or leave them prone to hereditary illness and other family fates or daemons as Liz greene calls them. If the journey is not taken early the consequences get larger as time goes on. This makes me reflect on a short story or long article I wrote called "Parenting as a Saturnian Pleasure" The general thrust of which states parenting is essentially facilitating childrens desire to be responsible for themselves. ie the incarnation of the EGO. Childhood fevers are the first stage of this process. Generally starting around the 3.5 years phase, which is the Saturn 45 deg. angle back to its birth position and running to 7 or so the Saturn 90 deg. angle to itself. So as a two year old a child is wanting to be responsible for themselves with the hot stove or the sharp knife. If we inhibit this person boundry setting experience -by being a 'loving & caring' smothering parent- the child will keep pushing the boundaries till they can set their own boudaries. Which if we stand in the way may well be when they are 21 before they break free of us. He they have cars, drugs, sex, guns, alcohol, crime, violence and jail as learning experiences to help them set their own boundaries. As a parent which learning experience would you rather for your child. We do them no favours by suppressing their growth experiences, especially when they have guardian angels still present to protect them somewhat. Another thought for fever relief is cloths soaked on lemon water wrapped around the calves. Also belladonna is useful for helping the child cope with the fever and reduces possiblity of fitting. Mild valerian tea may well also help the Ego incarnating. cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 14:16:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28000 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22823; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:03:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22589 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:00:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.01024B54@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:00:21 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 11 Aug 99 14:03:16 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 11 Aug 99 14:03:07 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:03:06 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: fevers Priority: normal In-reply-to: <37B1B9CB.314B@xtra.co.nz> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <7672106199E@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1476 Excellent!! Thank you so much for this response. This is just the explanation I was seeking. I will be very happy to hear any other insights or comments that may be out there too, however!! Thank you for such wonderful responses to my query. Anita > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 05:58:35 +1200 > From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage > Reply-to: bdnow@envirolink.org > Organization: Garuda NZ ltd > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Subject: fevers > Anita > > Fevers are the childs EGO attempting to free themselves from the > hereditary body they have got from their parents. It might be > interesting to note that if fevers have increased of late that the > planetary stuff present lately ie Saturn sqr Uranus and opposed MArs is > very much about liberation from restriction especially from authority > figures. > > If this EGO incarnation phase can not take place ie suppression of > fevers, then the child will have to make the same 'growth journey' later > in life, most probably during future Saturn cycles or leave them prone > to hereditary illness and other family fates or daemons as Liz greene > calls them. > > If the journey is not taken early the consequences get larger as time > goes on. This makes me reflect on a short story or long article I wrote > called "Parenting as a Saturnian Pleasure" The general thrust of which > states parenting is essentially facilitating childrens desire to be > responsible for themselves. ie the incarnation of the EGO. Childhood > fevers are the first stage of this process. Generally starting around > the 3.5 years phase, which is the Saturn 45 deg. angle back to its birth > position and running to 7 or so the Saturn 90 deg. angle to itself. > > So as a two year old a child is wanting to be responsible for themselves > with the hot stove or the sharp knife. If we inhibit this person boundry > setting experience -by being a 'loving & caring' smothering parent- the > child will keep pushing the boundaries till they can set their own > boudaries. Which if we stand in the way may well be when they are 21 > before they break free of us. He they have cars, drugs, sex, guns, > alcohol, crime, violence and jail as learning experiences to help them > set their own boundaries. As a parent which learning experience would > you rather for your child. We do them no favours by suppressing their > growth experiences, especially when they have guardian angels still > present to protect them somewhat. > > Another thought for fever relief is cloths soaked on lemon water wrapped > around the calves. Also belladonna is useful for helping the child cope > with the fever and reduces possiblity of fitting. Mild valerian tea may > well also help the Ego incarnating. > > cheers > > Glen A. > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 14:56:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA29263 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25584; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:42:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mda.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25329 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.215]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990811184413.WDQF2478302.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 06:44:13 +1200 Message-ID: <37B1C46C.5DDD@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 06:43:56 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Parenting as a Saturnine Pleasure Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1477 I have placed the article I mentioned re Parenting at the following address. I have not done this before, so I hope it works. http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/garudas GA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 15:10:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA29747 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26541; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mda.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26208 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:52:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.215]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990811185759.WFWL2478302.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 06:57:59 +1200 Message-ID: <37B1C7A6.1EAD@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 06:57:43 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: New feature Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1478 Wow A new experience. This Yahoo feature where one can have a briefcase at Yahoo. Upload a file, send the URL to folks. They then click on the URL, tick the article they want, email it to themselves, click on the file URL, save and open. A great way of people having selective choice without having to go through the web page drama, or deluging folks with unwanted info. Ah the late C20, who would want to miss it. GA. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 15:41:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA00918 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:41:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA29099; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:27:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28877 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp265.cy-net.net [208.21.195.74]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29708 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:27:49 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEE3FC.9823CF60@FLYLO>; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:22:43 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEE3FC.9823CF60@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: fevers Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:22:10 -0500 Encoding: 7 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1479 This is interesting! When I was a child I was one of those impossibly feverish kids. Finally, at age 6 I had Scarlet Fever and after that, I quit having them. Maybe the Ego had resolved itself and left my poor parents alone! martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 15:48:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01112 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:48:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA29635; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:34:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA29481 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:33:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.116] (pm3mbr3-166-145.intrepid.net [209.190.166.145]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA11935 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:35:56 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990811053817.00cb3270@pop-server> References: <000d01bee40c$b97a67e0$60cb6cce@netacc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 03:36:49 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: So Where y'at... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1480 I'm into this moveable fence thing also. It's REALLY DIFFICULT to get temporary fencing supplies here in WV. the shops that carry SOME SUPPLIES never carry all of them (Jeesh, yesterday I failed to even find ONE 8 ft copper clad ground rod at the largest commercial farm supply in the area!!!) Anyway, over in frederick, MD there is a shop with a Ghallager's fencing display. I popped the extra buck or so for their step-in posts. I'm very glad that I did because they are superb!! (They penetrate this drought baked ground and the step is oriented correctly for aligning the fence. I'm using their lightweight ribbon, setting up a temp corral for a couple of Alpines to use them to eat down the big seeds that overran the garlic beds once the mulch was pulled back and the garlic lifted. This will be interesting to Woody,I'm sure. I've been holding 7 goats since January inside a three strand smooth wire fence that is often juiceless. I have faith that the goats will stay in the 3 strand ribbon fence. Why would they leave? This will be the best feed they've had in weeks!! I am very interested in reel sugestions. I like what I see in the Premier catalog: reels that snap to a fence post so you can just finish off with the reel still on the end. I can't find ANY reels here, however. I really (no pun!) hate to mailorder fencing supplies. I have been using the Premier poutry netting for several months now. I'm impressed with it. It withstood a direct attack by foxes the first night. After they fried their feet on the downed (no pun!!) netting, they have not actually assaulted the fence again. (And, once again, the battery died on that netting a few weeks back...) My big question right now: how to keep the electric ribbon taut. Thanks -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 15:48:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01131 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:48:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA29672; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:34:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA29536 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.35] ("port 2050"@[148.233.78.35]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FGB003GDHS84H@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:19:24 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:27:16 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: OFF: New feature In-reply-to: <37B1C7A6.1EAD@xtra.co.nz> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1481 >Wow >A new experience. This Yahoo feature where one can have a briefcase at >Yahoo. Upload a file, send the URL to folks. They then click on the URL, >tick the article they want, email it to themselves, click on the file >URL, save and open. > >A great way of people having selective choice without having to go >through the web page drama, or deluging folks with unwanted info. > >Ah the late C20, who would want to miss it. > >GA. How d you do the "email it to themselves", my browser just downloaded to my Hard-disk as a text doc. and then I had to convert it. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 15:48:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01142 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:48:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA29716; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:34:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA29538 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:33:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.35] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.35]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FGB0089WHLZSN@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:15:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:23:31 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Parenting as a Saturnine Pleasure In-reply-to: <37B1C46C.5DDD@xtra.co.nz> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1482 >I have placed the article I mentioned re Parenting at the following >address. I have not done this before, so I hope it works. > >http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/garudas > >GA Hi Glen: It was not really straight forward to get the file for me (was not hard either), I had to use my own account at yahoo to get to it (password protected). Then I had to download the document and converted to something my Mac could read. What I got was text and a lot of encrypted garbles. I would read it, but I am feeling something was lost in the process. Could you please send it to me directly as an attachment, please send it in Text format. But by all means thanks so much for taking the time and using your talent to help us. Warm regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 21:47:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA15476 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA27567; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:33:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA27492 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:32:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts4-28.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.203.141]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA28252 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <00b901bee462$ef4ecf40$60cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <000d01bee40c$b97a67e0$60cb6cce@netacc.net> Subject: Mailorder.. Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:35:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1483 Allan writes: <<. I really hate to mailorder fencing supplies.>> But says even the largest storefront suppliers aren't well stocked. My country-mouse habit is to mailorder almost everything, since small town farm stores [much as I'dlike to keep the money in the home area, are often ill supplied and overpriced. I can go to Nasco or Hummert [for horticultural supplies], Lehmans [for non-electric stuff], Harbor Freight or Northern [for tools] and get what I want with a telephone call. Shipping and handling expenses are small compared to the expense of getting into the truck, driving to the nearby town, then then one further away, only to have to bring home something that isn't quite what I want. Gasoline, frustration, and time away from the garden...very expensive. I mailorder virtually all my clothes and whatever BD food I don't grow myself, as well. Woody From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 12:36 AM Subject: Re: So Where y'at... > I'm into this moveable fence thing also. It's REALLY DIFFICULT to get > temporary fencing supplies here in WV. the shops that carry SOME SUPPLIES > never carry all of them (Jeesh, yesterday I failed to even find ONE 8 ft > copper clad ground rod at the largest commercial farm supply in the area!!!) > > Anyway, over in frederick, MD there is a shop with a Ghallager's fencing > display. I popped the extra buck or so for their step-in posts. I'm very > glad that I did because they are superb!! (They penetrate this drought > baked ground and the step is oriented correctly for aligning the fence. > > I'm using their lightweight ribbon, setting up a temp corral for a couple > of Alpines to use them to eat down the big seeds that overran the garlic > beds once the mulch was pulled back and the garlic lifted. > > This will be interesting to Woody,I'm sure. I've been holding 7 goats since > January inside a three strand smooth wire fence that is often juiceless. I > have faith that the goats will stay in the 3 strand ribbon fence. Why would > they leave? This will be the best feed they've had in weeks!! > > I am very interested in reel sugestions. I like what I see in the Premier > catalog: reels that snap to a fence post so you can just finish off with > the reel still on the end. I can't find ANY reels here, however. I really > (no pun!) hate to mailorder fencing supplies. > > I have been using the Premier poutry netting for several months now. I'm > impressed with it. It withstood a direct attack by foxes the first night. > After they fried their feet on the downed (no pun!!) netting, they have not > actually assaulted the fence again. (And, once again, the battery died on > that netting a few weeks back...) > > My big question right now: how to keep the electric ribbon taut. > > Thanks > > -Allan > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 23:04:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA16386 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 23:04:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA02529; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02022 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:46:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.97] (pm3mbr4-166-200.intrepid.net [209.190.166.200]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA29346 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:49:11 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00b901bee462$ef4ecf40$60cb6cce@netacc.net> References: <000d01bee40c$b97a67e0$60cb6cce@netacc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:53:36 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Mailorder.. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1484 I think what I was bemoaning Woody is that I can't effectively shop for fencing supplies locally, nor can I find a local salesman experienced in the not-so-new-anymore NZ fence technologies. I'm bemoaning that because, as you perceive, money spent within the community normally cycles SEVEN TIMES within the community before it finally floats away to the vault of a multi-national. When you mail order, you're chosing to make your expenditure very one-dimensional. But that's the plan, aint it? Anyone out there still think that the 'success' e-commerce (aka mail order) 'just happened'? After the farmer, and the true craftsman, the small business man is the unit of Liberty in this country. Craftsmen disappeared with the first wave of industrialism, the war on farming continues, the war on small business began in the late 70's, right after so many aging hippies realized that the only way they could escape working for 'the man' would be by working for themselves. We closed our walk-in shop a few weeks ago because the rise of mail order sapped so much of our business. A close friend of mine closed his last week; he'd been open for 12 years - - things should have been getting better for him, instead the last two years have been painful. We're sitting pretty now with those big brown trucks becoming more effecient every day, but, boy, isn't our existence becoming even more precarious as our supply lines to goods become even more dependent on factors remote from our homes? hmmm, this is a long way from finding out how to get the slack out of those damned white ribbons... -Allan igg@igg.com >Allan writes: <<. I really hate to mailorder fencing supplies.>> But says >even the largest storefront suppliers aren't well stocked. My country-mouse >habit is to mailorder almost everything, since small town farm stores [much >as I'dlike to keep the money in the home area, are often ill supplied and >overpriced. I can go to Nasco or Hummert [for horticultural supplies], >Lehmans [for non-electric stuff], >Harbor Freight or Northern [for tools] and get what I want with a telephone >call. Shipping and handling expenses are small compared to the expense of >getting into the truck, driving to the nearby town, then then one further >away, only to have to bring home something that isn't quite what I want. >Gasoline, frustration, and time away from the garden...very expensive. I >mailorder virtually all my clothes and whatever BD food I don't grow >myself, as well. > >Woody > > > > From: Allan Balliett >To: >Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 12:36 AM >Subject: Re: So Where y'at... > > >> I'm into this moveable fence thing also. It's REALLY DIFFICULT to get >> temporary fencing supplies here in WV. the shops that carry SOME SUPPLIES >> never carry all of them (Jeesh, yesterday I failed to even find ONE 8 ft >> copper clad ground rod at the largest commercial farm supply in the >area!!!) >> >> Anyway, over in frederick, MD there is a shop with a Ghallager's fencing >> display. I popped the extra buck or so for their step-in posts. I'm very >> glad that I did because they are superb!! (They penetrate this drought >> baked ground and the step is oriented correctly for aligning the fence. >> >> I'm using their lightweight ribbon, setting up a temp corral for a couple >> of Alpines to use them to eat down the big seeds that overran the garlic >> beds once the mulch was pulled back and the garlic lifted. >> >> This will be interesting to Woody,I'm sure. I've been holding 7 goats >since >> January inside a three strand smooth wire fence that is often juiceless. I >> have faith that the goats will stay in the 3 strand ribbon fence. Why >would >> they leave? This will be the best feed they've had in weeks!! >> >> I am very interested in reel sugestions. I like what I see in the Premier >> catalog: reels that snap to a fence post so you can just finish off with >> the reel still on the end. I can't find ANY reels here, however. I really >> (no pun!) hate to mailorder fencing supplies. >> >> I have been using the Premier poutry netting for several months now. I'm >> impressed with it. It withstood a direct attack by foxes the first night. >> After they fried their feet on the downed (no pun!!) netting, they have >not >> actually assaulted the fence again. (And, once again, the battery died on >> that netting a few weeks back...) >> >> My big question right now: how to keep the electric ribbon taut. >> >> Thanks >> >> -Allan >> >> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 11 23:04:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA16398 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 23:04:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA02561; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:50:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02029 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-86.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.86]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA25998 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:49:10 +1000 Message-ID: <000401bee46d$0076b3a0$56431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: fevers Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:21:26 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1485 Dear Anita, Certainly I agree with all the other messages, but I have a few other tips that may be of help. After 4 kids and I trained as a general nurse, but soon realised that homoeopathy was the way to go! The part that most worry about in fevers is if the kid can have a seizure or fit. This happens because the O2 is being burned up so fast by the temperature that sometimes the brain cannot get enough O2 and so the child can have a fit. Homoeopathically this can be overcome by giving the child Ferrum Phos , which is a tissue salt, that is sucked in the mouth. It increases the iron holding capacity of the blood and increases the amount of O2 carried. It also helps with settling the child with the fever. Another way to help the fever is the cold compresses as stated, but I just used a cloth with cool water on the stomach to bring the fever down from the head. Change as it dries out. I also found that each of my kids had different remedies for their fevers, and gradually I found out what worked for each child. If you have a Homoeopath they can work it out with you, or I just had the Homoeopathic Materia Medica by Boericke. I am sure there are lots of good books out now about Homoepathic first aid, and once you have the remedies at home, life becomes much easier. My eldest used to get red in the face, delirious and shaking, so he was a Belladonna. I would give him a warm shower, wrap him in a sheet give him his Belladonna and he would sleep and wake up 4 hours later better. Homeoepathics just seems to quickly get you through the fever, but not suppress it. Best wishes Cheryl Kemp. -----Original Message----- From: Anita Graf (Staff) To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, 12 August 1999 4:07 am Subject: Re: fevers Excellent!! Thank you so much for this response. This is just the explanation I was seeking. I will be very happy to hear any other insights or comments that may be out there too, however!! Thank you for such wonderful responses to my query. Anita > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 05:58:35 +1200 > From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage > Reply-to: bdnow@envirolink.org > Organization: Garuda NZ ltd > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Subject: fevers > Anita > > Fevers are the childs EGO attempting to free themselves from the > hereditary body they have got from their parents. It might be > interesting to note that if fevers have increased of late that the > planetary stuff present lately ie Saturn sqr Uranus and opposed MArs is > very much about liberation from restriction especially from authority > figures. > > If this EGO incarnation phase can not take place ie suppression of > fevers, then the child will have to make the same 'growth journey' later > in life, most probably during future Saturn cycles or leave them prone > to hereditary illness and other family fates or daemons as Liz greene > calls them. > > If the journey is not taken early the consequences get larger as time > goes on. This makes me reflect on a short story or long article I wrote > called "Parenting as a Saturnian Pleasure" The general thrust of which > states parenting is essentially facilitating childrens desire to be > responsible for themselves. ie the incarnation of the EGO. Childhood > fevers are the first stage of this process. Generally starting around > the 3.5 years phase, which is the Saturn 45 deg. angle back to its birth > position and running to 7 or so the Saturn 90 deg. angle to itself. > > So as a two year old a child is wanting to be responsible for themselves > with the hot stove or the sharp knife. If we inhibit this person boundry > setting experience -by being a 'loving & caring' smothering parent- the > child will keep pushing the boundaries till they can set their own > boudaries. Which if we stand in the way may well be when they are 21 > before they break free of us. He they have cars, drugs, sex, guns, > alcohol, crime, violence and jail as learning experiences to help them > set their own boundaries. As a parent which learning experience would > you rather for your child. We do them no favours by suppressing their > growth experiences, especially when they have guardian angels still > present to protect them somewhat. > > Another thought for fever relief is cloths soaked on lemon water wrapped > around the calves. Also belladonna is useful for helping the child cope > with the fever and reduces possiblity of fitting. Mild valerian tea may > well also help the Ego incarnating. > > cheers > > Glen A. > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 12 04:50:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA20550 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 04:50:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA15181; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 04:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA15099 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 04:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.171] ("port 2050"@[148.233.78.171]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FGC00FR6I9E1T@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 03:27:18 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 03:35:13 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <00b901bee462$ef4ecf40$60cb6cce@netacc.net> <000d01bee40c$b97a67e0$60cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1486 Hi: "Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes" Althought I know this decision was made based on religious grounds, the news motivate my interest in asking the Anthroposophy position on evolution. I know it is a controversial topic in the Waldorf world, and I feel it would be something worth while to talk about in this list. IMHO it is interesting in itself, but also in reference to genetic manipulation. Anyone interested in commenting ? regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 12 09:12:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA25038 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:12:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA22714; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 08:58:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA22656 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 08:57:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0102C710@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 8:57:17 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 12 Aug 99 09:00:12 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 12 Aug 99 09:00:12 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:00:11 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes Priority: normal References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <77A15473D29@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1487 Just thought I'd let you know that in my Waldorf high school, we were taught both evolution and creation as well as the Scripps case and all the controversy surounding the issue. I've heard fundamentalist Christians say that they calculated from clues in the Bible (then X begat Y, then Y begat Z, etc) and added on 7 days for creation and came up with a starting point of earthly reality like 6,000 years ago. How ridiculous is this? This kind of thinking can only occur when science is completely discounted and religion is understood in its most dead, literal form. Personally, I don't see why both concepts of creation and evolution can't coexist. They certainly do in my mind. My answer to narrow-minded religious types is, "God, I hope we're evolving!" Why should God be so underestimated as to say that It (I don't like gender pronouns for God) is incapable of also building in evolution to the equation? Science is really good at doing detective work and working backward with a trail of evidence. But there will always be a place where that evidence stops. That's where it seems to me that other imaginings ("faith") should play their role. I don't think that science does harm when it looks backward and tries to understand what already has been. Where we get into trouble is when we use science for discovering what could be. Science can only answer questions as they are asked, so the trick is to ask the right questions. Scientists don't always get the right answer on their first time arouind, and they are always limited by the state of the art of their tools and their minds. Therefore science and its answers should always be processed through one's own conscious mind and never just accepted at face value. But that's what I would say about religious teachings as well. We have to all be scientific in our approach to all aspects of life. Wait a minute, this is sounding like something Steiner might have said.... > Hi: > > "Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes" > > Althought I know this decision was made based on religious grounds, the news motivate my interest in asking the Anthroposophy position on evolution. > > I know it is a controversial topic in the Waldorf world, and I feel it would be something worth while to talk about in this list. IMHO it is interesting in itself, but also in reference to genetic m> > Anyone interested in commenting ? > > regards > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 12 10:18:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02758 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:18:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25958; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25718 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:01:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207.41.56.10 (dial-10-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.10]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA25593 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:55:47 -0400 Message-ID: <37B2E5AB.830@together.net> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:18:06 -0500 From: Lisa Mccrory Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: So Where y'at... References: <000d01bee40c$b97a67e0$60cb6cce@netacc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1488 Allan Balliett wrote: > > I am very interested in reel sugestions. I like what I see in the Premier > catalog: reels that snap to a fence post so you can just finish off with > the reel still on the end. I can't find ANY reels here, however. I really > (no pun!) hate to mailorder fencing supplies. I buy extension cord reels for my polywire and tape. It works great, costs between and $5 and $7 each and holds quite a lot. The reel is orange, plastic, has a handle for winding up the fence. You can find this in any hardware store....look in the extension cord section. The great thing about this is that since it is all plastic, I hang it off a fiberglass fence post and don't have to worry about it grounding the system. For someone wanting to have a lot of polywire/tape on hand, you can also use garden hose reels which are also plastic, about 10 times larger and set on a stand with wheels. Again, you can find this in any hardware store. > > I have been using the Premier poutry netting for several months now. I'm > impressed with it. It withstood a direct attack by foxes the first night. > After they fried their feet on the downed (no pun!!) netting, they have not > actually assaulted the fence again. (And, once again, the battery died on > that netting a few weeks back...) > > My big question right now: how to keep the electric ribbon taut. I usually wrap the ribbon around a fiberglass/stepin post every so often to keep the tension. -Lisa From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 12 10:46:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03364 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:46:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27775; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:32:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerf.ulster.net (root@ulster.net [208.148.73.65]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27643 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:30:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 208.133.196.30 (annex5-port30.ulster.net [208.133.196.30]) by nerf.ulster.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id KAA10266 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:46:29 -0400 Message-ID: <37B2DBF5.743B@ulster.net> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:36:44 -0400 From: Cassie and Chris Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: subscriptions References: <77A15473D29@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1489 hello everyone! i am in need of help....i need to unsubscribe to this list serve on this e-mail account and then subscribe to it on another e-mail account. i seem to have lost the little letter that one receives when they subscribe that describes all of this. if anyone has it i would really appreciate you forwarding it to me or just writing how i can unsubscribe/subscribe. thanks! this website is facinating to us and we don't want to lose it! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 12 11:36:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07062 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:36:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00750; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:21:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00626 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:20:15 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hVQFa06251 (4000) for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:22:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3c0ed246.24e440b3@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:22:27 EDT Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1490 In a message dated 8/12/1999 6:03:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, agraf@agecon.uga.edu writes: << I've heard fundamentalist Christians say that they calculated from clues in the Bible (then X begat Y, then Y begat Z, etc) and added on 7 days for creation and came up with a starting point of earthly reality like 6,000 years ago. How ridiculous is this? This kind of thinking can only occur when science is completely discounted and religion is understood in its most dead, literal form.>> unfortunately that kind of thinking also occurs in the "scientific community." Being involved with biodynamics or organic farming should tell you a thing or two as to how "science" views things that differ from its established dogma. The calculations the christians came up with for the beginning of the world was created by a man in 1650, and it was based only on the geneology lists & historical records. Prior to that it doesn't appear that anyone adhered to such an idiotic idea. Also note that the Hebrew word for "days" in Genesis is better translated "age," as opposed to a 24 hour period of time, i.e. in the first age, second age, etc. << Personally, I don't see why both concepts of creation and evolution can't coexist. >> because they are both firmly opposed against each other. That's like asking why the bubonic plague and people cannot coexist. <> because, according to evolution, life seems to change in perfect little steps. I.e. first we're fishes, then oh boy now we're salammanders, now we grow hair and jump from trees, now we stand on just 2 legs, oh and now we lose our hair and start inventing the toaster. Also understand that Darwin did not even know the theory of chemical evolution, and also that on his deathbed he asked for a priest. Yahweh (the name of the Creator.."god" is actually the name of a Babylonian pagan deity...dont tell the christians that, they're liable to blow a gasket) does allow some pliability in each life form's constitution, but that potential was there to begin with, which is not what evolutionists believe, which is that through some genetic mutations here and there they "evolved" into something better. To give you an idea of how rare genetic mutations are, read the following: "A normal spontaneous mutation rate for a single gene would be 1 mutation in every 1 million to 100 million replications." Keeton, Biological Sciences, 3rd edition 1980 pg 653. OF the mutations that do occur in a gene, the vast majority would be harmful. A good example is to open up a Swiss watch, and make some random changes to its parts. There's a very good, if not almost certain chance that you'll make it run drastically worse. A random change in any delicate and intricate mechanism is far more likely to damage it than improve it. << Science is really good at doing detective work and working backward with a trail of evidence. >> "trail of evidence," or "trail of assumptions?" A good example of this would be in the sediment datings they have..i.e. if it's below this point, it's oh about 200 million years old. IF it's below this point, 1 billion years old. I've found a number of cases where they have found bones or things that "shouldn't" be in a particular sediment layer that would throw off the timing, as well as most scientific dogma, out the window. What do they do? Well, they sure don't do what you say...they just simply ignored the evidence. Since they cannot do carbon 14 dating on anything older than (i think) about 100,000 years, anything beyond that, my dear, is simply guessing off the top of their heads, or using more assumptions, such as that it takes 1,000 years for a layer of topsoil to be created (whereas some volcano eruptions have put about 5 feet of stuff in a matter of a few days), etc, ad nauseum. <> here is where most "Christians" are utterly clueless when it comes to Scripture. The Hebrew word for "faith" is NOT this blind belief in whatever their pulpit parrot tells them. Unfortunately atheist and christian alike assume it to be just that. From the definitions I've seen, it means something established, or established facts. << I don't think that science does harm when it looks backward and tries to understand what already has been. Where we get into trouble is when we use science for discovering what could be. Science can only answer questions as they are asked, so the trick is to ask the right questions.>> problem is if they ask the right question, and get the wrong answer, the evidence is usually supressed, or ignored. << Scientists don't always get the right answer on their first time arouind, >> sometimes they dont get the right answer the 2nd, 3rd, or 500th time around. <> in most cases it's very little of the former, and quite a large chunk of the latter. << Therefore science and its answers should always be processed through one's own conscious mind and never just accepted at face value. But that's what I would say about religious teachings as well. We have to all be scientific in our approach to all aspects of life.>> does "one's own conscious mind" mean rational thinking? I would hope so. Otherwise the meaning of something will change based on the person's fickleness, much like how the meaning of the Constitution, a document written in plain English, changes from week to week according to the "supereme" court. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 12 11:39:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07223 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:39:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01061; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yancey.main.nc.us (yancey.main.nc.us [209.192.111.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00820 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:22:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from donnas (tchub2-20.yancey.main.nc.us [209.192.111.167]) by yancey.main.nc.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29750 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:26:12 -0400 Message-ID: <015501bee4d5$72520f20$a76fc0d1@donnas> From: "donnas" To: Subject: Re: Union Agricultural Institute Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:11:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1491 Hugh Lovell....... I would like to know if there will be a conference at the Union Ag Inst. this year over Labor day weekend????..... I haven't gotten anything in the mail.. .....and it seem like I should have, since I was there last year. If you don't want to post to the list, please e-mail me: donnas@yancey.main.nc.us thanks, donaterra From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 12 13:07:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA09182 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06908; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06838 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:52:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.44] (pm3mbr5-166-222.intrepid.net [209.190.166.222]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA09310 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:55:37 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37B2E5AB.830@together.net> References: <000d01bee40c$b97a67e0$60cb6cce@netacc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 01:00:22 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: So Where y'at... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1492 >I usually wrap the ribbon around a fiberglass/stepin post every so often >to keep the tension. > > >-Lisa Thanks, Lisa, that's the 'permission' I was missing. (I thought that 'wrapping' weakend the conductors or something) So, how far apart are you putting your posts? I had understood that 30ft was possible with the ribbons, but it's looking like I might have to go to 12ft or something due to the sagging. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 12 13:10:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA09260 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:10:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07293; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07028 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:54:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.44] (pm3mbr5-166-222.intrepid.net [209.190.166.222]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA09673 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:57:19 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37B2DBF5.743B@ulster.net> References: <77A15473D29@agecon.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 01:02:07 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: subscriptions Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1493 >hello everyone! i am in need of help....i need to unsubscribe to this >list serve on this e-mail account and then subscribe to it on another >e-mail account. i seem to have lost the little letter that one receives >when they subscribe that describes all of this. if anyone has it i >would really appreciate you forwarding it to me or just writing how i >can unsubscribe/subscribe. thanks! this website is facinating to us >and we don't want to lose it! if you are subscribed to the list, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org with 'help' in the body of the msg. That should give you all the info you need! Thanks! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 12 13:14:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA09342 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:14:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07639; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:00:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cougar.ssi.stratus.com (cougar.ssi.stratus.com [198.97.42.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07580 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:59:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by cougar.ssi.stratus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14266 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:01:21 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3c0ed246.24e440b3@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:01:21 -0400 (EDT) Organization: Society for Real Time Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Charlie Hodgson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1494 On 12-Aug-99 JLacome@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/12/1999 6:03:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > agraf@agecon.uga.edu writes: > << Personally, I don't see why both concepts of creation and evolution can't > coexist. >> > > because they are both firmly opposed against each other. That's like asking > why the bubonic plague and people cannot coexist. That's a perception problem. I have to agree with Anita that it could be part of the divine plan. If the purported creator can create a complex system like a human, I see no reason why it couldn't be created to be self-modifiable. Look at viruses that develop resistance to drugs. That's evolution, and evolution in the correct direction for the organism. > > < is, "God, I hope we're evolving!" Why should God be so underestimated as to > say that It (I don't like gender pronouns for God) is incapable of also > building in evolution > to the equation?>> > > because, according to evolution, life seems to change in perfect little > steps. I.e. first we're fishes, then oh boy now we're salammanders, now we > grow hair and jump from trees, now we stand on just 2 legs, oh and now we > lose our hair and start inventing the toaster. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that a step is such a big leap. > "A normal spontaneous mutation rate for a single > gene would be 1 mutation in every 1 million to 100 million replications." While a 100 million seems like a large number, cell division is a binary sequence: 1,2,4,8,16,32,... there are only 20 division-periods needed to get from 1 to 1 million cells. Another 7 gets you to 100 million. For YOUR red blood cells alone, which I believe is 200 billion new cells per day, equates to 2000 - 200,000 thousand mutations a DAY! > A good example is to open up a Swiss watch, and make some random > changes to its parts. There's a very good, if not almost certain > chance that you'll make it run drastically worse. A random change > in any delicate and intricate mechanism is far more likely to damage > it than improve it. True, but you forgot that first we magically cloned the swiss watch, and we are so fast that we can perform random modifications one billion of these cloned watches per day. Even at a 99.9999997% failure rate, we get 3 positive modifications per day. Not too shabby. A better analogy would be downloading files. There is a source file, each download creates a clone. The error-checking protocols you use to download the clone has a failure rate of about 1 in 16 billion. If this file is downloaded 200 billion times a day, we can assume that 12 corrupted files per day will make it to the user. Depending on the type of file, you may not notice the corruption. If file is an image, maybe one pixel will be a different shade of blue. For a text file, maybe a capital A gets transformed to lower case. Neither is a real problem and will go unnoticed. If you download a program, it may crash, it may cause no problem but there is the possibility that it corrects a bug. Some food for thought. Charlie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 12 13:54:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA10332 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:54:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11378; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:40:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11332 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:39:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207.41.56.10 (dial-103-MAX-BTVT-00.ramp.together.net [207.41.50.103]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA10580 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:34:01 -0400 Message-ID: <37B318D1.5D33@together.net> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:56:40 -0500 From: Lisa Mccrory Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: So Where y'at... References: <000d01bee40c$b97a67e0$60cb6cce@netacc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1495 Allan Balliett wrote: > > >I usually wrap the ribbon around a fiberglass/stepin post every so often > >to keep the tension. > > > > > >-Lisa > > Thanks, Lisa, that's the 'permission' I was missing. (I thought that > 'wrapping' weakend the conductors or something) > > So, how far apart are you putting your posts? I had understood that 30ft > was possible with the ribbons, but it's looking like I might have to go to > 12ft or something due to the sagging. > > -Allan Wrap around every 3rd or so and you should be able to do 20-30 feet -lisa From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 12 14:37:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA11101 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:37:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14226; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:23:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14127 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:22:19 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hOCYa06249 (4186) for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:24:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:24:24 EDT Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1496 In a message dated 8/12/1999 10:03:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com writes: <> that's not a perception problem, nor is it evolution; that's survival of the fittest. The weak, sickly, and deformed are weeded out. Natural selection & the survival of the fittest are natural processes, and not evolutionary ones. They don't work to create a new species, but in fact work to maintain the preservation of a species as is by assuring that only the best or fittest members of the species survives and reproduces. Surely you don't mean to suggest that if I had a resistance to a cold, I have become a new species or mutant?? << While a 100 million seems like a large number, cell division is a binary sequence: 1,2,4,8,16,32,... there are only 20 division-periods needed to get from 1 to 1 million cells. Another 7 gets you to 100 million. For YOUR red blood cells alone, which I believe is 200 billion new cells per day, equates to 2000 - 200,000 thousand mutations a DAY! >> problem is you're mixing genes with cells. 1 single gene would have to be replicated 1-100 million times before a single mutation occured. You're talking something that would take place on the order of 1,000-1 million generations. Further, as Gregor Mendel's genetic experiments pointed out, since the mutations would be recessive, the principle of dominance works to cover up and flush out a that trait. Finally, if evolution were true, fossils of animals with partially developed body parts (i.e. partial legs, partial toes, partial fins, etc) would have been found, which of course they haven't. <> don't forget to mention that if we are dealing with a Swiss watch/gene analogy, the swiss watch would contain a couple million "parts," with only 3 parts being mutated. <> that's nice, but a corrupted file still won't work, which goes back to the natural selection point I made. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 12 14:58:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA11630 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:58:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15710; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15322 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:40:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.149] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.114]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FGD00DC27KGXK@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:33:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:34:45 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA15340 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1497 >Dear Guillermo, > > I had thought it not controversial in the Waldorf World, being based on >RS's teaching, however, I have forwarded the post to a Waldorf Teacher, who >has been teaching for over 30 years for comment. Michael and Anita: Having both of you the good fortune of a Waldorf education, could you please share with me the basics around this topic. I am somehow familiar with the Anthrops. perspective on human evolution put forward by Steiner in an Outline of Occult Science. But that is rightly named just an "outline". Could you please share what you were taught on this matter?. What are the key concepts Steiner use in evolution ?. I must agree with you Michael about the topic not being controversial within the Anthroposophical framework, what I meant is that is one of the most frequent examples the anti-waldorf people use to claim WS as un-scientific. Regards & Thanks Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 12 16:03:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA13508 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:03:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20188; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:49:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cougar.ssi.stratus.com (cougar.ssi.stratus.com [198.97.42.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19951 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:46:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by cougar.ssi.stratus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18049 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:47:27 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Organization: Society for Real Time Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Charlie Hodgson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1498 On 12-Aug-99 JLacome@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/12/1999 10:03:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com writes: > > that's not a perception problem, nor is it evolution; that's survival of the > fittest. The weak, sickly, and deformed are weeded out. Natural selection & > the survival of the fittest are natural processes, and not evolutionary ones. > They don't work to create a new species, but in fact work to maintain the > preservation of a species as is by assuring that only the best or fittest > members of the species survives and reproduces. Surely you don't mean to > suggest that if I had a resistance to a cold, I have become a new species or > mutant?? In essence, I would say that you have mutated. Your body has added a new capability- one you were not born with. The connotation of mutation is pretty severe, but you have changed. Survival of the fittest has a lot to do with one's enviornment and weak/sickly does not always come into play. Biodiversity within a species will do more to guarantee thier survival since external influences constantly change. I can envision several (though far-fetched) scenerios where persons who are blind or deaf might fare better than the typical population. If a sudden change occured it would be the 'weak/sickly' that survive - at one being able to hear or see becomes the handicap. > << While a 100 million seems like a large number, cell division is a binary > sequence: 1,2,4,8,16,32,... there are only 20 division-periods needed to > get from 1 to 1 million cells. Another 7 gets you to 100 million. > > For YOUR red blood cells alone, which I believe is 200 billion new cells > per day, equates to 2000 - 200,000 thousand mutations a DAY! >> > > problem is you're mixing genes with cells. 1 single gene would have to be > replicated 1-100 million times before a single mutation occured. You're > talking something that would take place on the order of 1,000-1 million > generations. My biology is rusty, but I'm under the impression each cell contains a copy of the DNA and DNA is comprised of genes. The cells reproduce via splitting. If so, my above holds true. Also, you're looking at this linearly, while it's not. If Adam and Eve had two kids, end each had two kids, after 27 generations (<500 years) there will have been over 1 million mixes. Increase to 5 offspring each and the number is 8 1/2 generations. Assuming man has been around for 100,000 years, we're talking less then 7000 generations of man. How can we have the diversity of the human organism that we see if takes at least 1000 generations to form one mutation? > Finally, if evolution were true, > fossils of animals with partially developed body parts (i.e. partial legs, > partial toes, partial fins, etc) would have been found, which of course they > haven't. If you consider the number of beings, of all species that have existed, and the number of fossils that we have found to date, I need to dismiss that argument. We haven't even found all the species that currently exist. > > < we are so fast that we can perform random modifications one billion of > these cloned watches per day. Even at a 99.9999997% failure rate, we get > 3 positive modifications per day. Not too shabby. >> > > don't forget to mention that if we are dealing with a Swiss watch/gene > analogy, the swiss watch would contain a couple million "parts," with only 3 > parts being mutated. This relates to MTBF (mean time before failure). The greater the number of parts, the higher the failure rate. > < file is an image, maybe one pixel will be a different shade of blue. > For a text file, maybe a capital A gets transformed to lower case. > Neither is a real problem and will go unnoticed. If you download a > program, it may crash, it may cause no problem but there is the > possibility that it corrects a bug.>> > > that's nice, but a corrupted file still won't work, which goes back to the > natural selection point I made. No, one in 16 billion will make it undetected, and of those most will work. Corruption does not neccessarily equate to broken. A program of that's 120KB has a million bits. 2 single bit errors, in the right places, will go undetected by the error checker. Whether or not the program will run correctly depends on where the corruption occurs. Again, the corruption has the posibility of correcting a bug. If duplicated enough, the posibility of this occuring is good. I frequently hack programs to change annoying behaviors. This is not a science, it's hit and miss. Change what you think you need and try it. Most times the change in undetatable, occasionally the program will crash hard, eentually you make the correct change and you leave it that way. In closing, I do believe in natural selection, but I believe that mutation is a normal part of the equation. Most mutations are bad, but the occasional helpful one pops up. Natural selection will therefore weed out the 'old style', non-mutant form and the mutant becomes the norm. Charlie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 12 17:07:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15014 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:07:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24385; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:53:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24038 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:49:37 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hLNBa22757 (4159) for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:51:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1466786e.24e48de7@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:51:51 EDT Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1499 In a message dated 8/12/1999 12:53:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com writes: <> thing is that a mutation in the strict sense is a change of genes. In the case of a cold, it'd be a built up resistence, and not something genetic. This is why a mother's milk contains a large amount of white cells, which protects the baby from getting infected. In the case of bugs & incesticides, what you're dealing with there is natural selection, and not some mutant-superbugs. Regarding change, what you're referring to is genetic variety, which as I said before, is totally valid. A good example is the English Peppered Moth experiment, where, due to soot in industrial areas that stuck to the trees, a certain moth was replaced from the light variety to the dark variety. The potential for a dark variety was already there..it's not as if it "evolved" into a new species. << My biology is rusty, but I'm under the impression each cell contains a copy of the DNA and DNA is comprised of genes. The cells reproduce via splitting. If so, my above holds true. Also, you're looking at this linearly, while it's not. If Adam and Eve had two kids, end each had two kids, after 27 generations (<500 years) there will have been over 1 million mixes. Increase to 5 offspring each and the number is 8 1/2 generations. >> problem is, as far as genetics are concerned, like produces like. There is no way a caucasion would produce a black child, nor vice versa. natural law is also unchangable, so the incest laws would apply in the above scenario just as incest applies today. I don't think the creator would be stupid enough to create just two individuals who supposedly populated the planet. Perhaps "adam" may be a city, as Joshua 3:16 points out. The other problem is you're looking at genes as just being composed of 1 part, when in fact it is composed of millions of parts. So, going back to the example, 1 gene containg millions of parts would, after 1-100 million replications, which would take 1,000-1 million generations, would produce 1 mutation, which would either cause it to be weak/sickly, or would simply be covered up through natural selection. What I'm trying to point out is, if the evolutionary theory holds true, then it'd take hundreds of billions of years, for some random mutation to take hold and produce some new creature. One interesting thing to consider re: creationists & evolutionists is that they both believe in some sort of "evolving" of animals..i.e. evolutions say it goes over millions of years, whereas creationists say it took only hundreds of years right after the Flood. <> That's an easy one: there were many different species created, not merely 1 couple whose children incested (monogeism) and somehow produced dozens of different races. According to creationists, all the races derived from Shem (white), Japeth(yellow), and Ham(black). Problem is there are Egyptian paintings depicting over 7-8 racial types which are dated 3,500 BCE. Those paintings predate the Flood by 1,500 years. So right there the shem-ham-japeth theory falls apart. There have been many species that have gone extinct, such as the Tasmanian, Neanderthal, and Cro-magnon. <> you need to correct your argument. That all the species that existed haven't all been found yet is irrelevant. If the evolution theory held true, then right below the fossil record for mammals, reptiles, bugs, etc, that have been found so far, you'd find some hybrids or partially developed animals that would "prove" evolution occured. This isn't the case. As I stated before, evolution assumes that everything has gone in nice little steps, which is one of the many flaws and huge gaps in that theory. <> see above. It would take hundreds of billions, or perhaps trillions of years for chance mutations to finally produce something "helpful." From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 12 18:26:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA17382 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:26:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA28999; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:12:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28854 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:10:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.131.6] (max3-36.stc.net [208.210.132.36]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA05226 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:12:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <015501bee4d5$72520f20$a76fc0d1@donnas> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:19:59 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Union Agricultural Institute Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1500 > Hugh Lovell....... I would like to know if there will be a conference at >the Union Ag Inst. this year over Labor day weekend????..... I haven't >gotten anything in the mail.. .....and it seem like I should have, since I >was there last year. >If you don't want to post to the list, please e-mail me: >donnas@yancey.main.nc.us >thanks, >donaterra There will be, on the 3rd, 4, and 5th, with a special in depth workshop the thursday before with myself, Greg Willis, Lorraine and Darek Trowbridge from 8 in the morning to 9 at night. Send me your address and I'll mail you a brochure. I don't have this stuff on my computer. Hugh ***** Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 06:16:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA07389 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 06:16:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA27515; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 06:02:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA24722 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 04:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-001.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.101]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA26623 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:28:48 +1200 Message-ID: <002601bee564$538ea460$65f631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Spreading 500 over large areas Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:17:45 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEE5C8.E77CFAA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1501 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEE5C8.E77CFAA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all. This is the draft of an article that was published in "Harvests" here in = NZ this week. Carl (the writer) and Alastair are members of the = Northland BD group. The published article is hardly different and has = diagrams. Cheers Gareth Whangarei NZ As the name suggests Bio Dynamics is continually changing and evolving = as the movement grows and spreads its influence around the world. = Different farming techniques require different adaptations and/or = interpretations of Steiners Lectures. New Zealand farmers have a = reputation for improvisation and biodynamic farming has developed = considerably to cope with the difficulties associated with larger scale = farming. Steiner encouraged this innovative and free thinking, saying = each farming system is different and that farmers need to feel their own = way and do what is best for their own situation. Spreading 500 by hand has evolved from spreading by hand with a = hearth-brush, through pumping the 500 through a spraying system on a = tractor or other vehicle, to spraying by air, either by fixed wing or = helicopter.=20 Alastair and I farm about 600ha between us. In the past we have spread = 500 by spray tank on the back of a tractor but this proved to be = incredibly time consuming which especially for the spring dressing = proved to be very costly. A couple of years ago we decided to try a = helicopter to get the job done as quickly as possible. Without going = into details, the saving of our time justified the expense of the = helicopter. We set ourselves up with two agitators to stir the 500 and = with one batch made up before the chopper arrived we were able to keep = it flying for the afternoon without too many expensive hold-ups.=20 However, it wasn't all plain sailing, the biggest drawback was that the = chopper would be spraying thistles, gorse etc in the early morning which = would leave only a few hours to decontaminate and re-calibrate his spray = equipment before arriving at our spray site and still face the = possibility that the weather had deteriorated too much for spraying and = have to go through the same process the next day. After discussing these problems and following on from an idea that Kevin = Dodds had been nurturing for some time, Alastair and Kevin came up with = the idea of suspending a small tank from the helicopter and allowing the = 500 to flow from it and relying on the wash from the chopper to disperse = the 500. We spoke to "Prickles" from Marine Helicopters who couldn't see = any problems with the idea in principle but laid down a few "guidelines" = that we needed to stick to. The helicopter (a Jet Ranger) is able to lift 600kg in a straight lift. = This meant we could use a 450 litre drum plus frame and still give us = 100kg safety margin to allow for unknown flight characteristics of our = suspended load. We made up a steel frame which the tank sat in. = "Prickles" said that anything that is slung beneath the chopper needed = to be certified. He had a set of strops that were used for that sort of = thing and as long as the strops went right under the whole load so that = even if my welding fell to bits in mid-flight (as if), everything would = still be contained by the strops making it safe for anybody on the = ground we should be OK. He also suggested a vane attached to the back of = the frame to stabilise the frame in flight and hold the valve to the = front ensuring that the tank would empty because of the angle that the = tank would trail at. We had negotiated a fixed price for the job based on 20 minutes flying = time so we put a 32ml wheel valve on the out-let of the tank and by = trial and error found that two full turns allowed the tank to empty in = 18 mins, the 1st half going in 7 mins. "Prickles" now knew he had to do = half the farm in 7mins and complete the job in 18. We now had to find a way to turn it in while in flight. Easy. We = attached a length of alkathene pipe to a 90o bend on the valve and tied = a weight to the other end of this. We then held this up, level with the = top of the tank, by attaching it to a rocket launcher (an electrically = operated release). This meant that the valve could be turned on to the = required setting before take-off and the 500 wouldn't start to flow = until the rocket launcher released the weighted pipe and it fell to the = downwards position. We were set to give it a go. We had three blocks to do so we had 900 = litres of 500 made up by the time the chopper arrived. 450 litres of = this went into the spreading tank and the rest went into a holding tank. = Then another 450 litres was set stirring to be ready by the time the = second tankful had been done. The 1st tankful went on in about 12 mins so there was a portion of my = block that was missed. I guess "g" forces or something may have caused = the 500 to flow quicker than our static measurement, so we shut the = wheel valve by 1/2 a turn, refilled the tank with the 2nd batch and = tried again on Alastair's block. This time it was perfect. There was = quite a strong wind blowing which probably would have put a stop to = spreading with a normal helicopter spray system, but with the bigger = droplet size of the "free flow" system this only assisted with the = spread. Incidentally, the only pumping involved was in the transfer from = agitator to holding tank and/or spreading tank and the pump used was a = centrifugal pump (ie high volume/low pressure) which should be = reasonably kind to the stirred molecules. I'm sure the system will evolve as time goes on but our first experience = pleased us beyond our highest expectations. The beauty of the system is = in its simplicity and I hope we don't lose that.As the name suggests Bio = Dynamics is continually changing and evolving as the movement grows and = spreads its influence around the world. Different farming techniques = require different adaptations and/or interpretations of Steiners = Lectures. New Zealand farmers have a reputation for improvisation and = biodynamic farming has developed considerably to cope with the = difficulties associated with larger scale farming. Steiner encouraged = this innovative and free thinking, saying each farming system is = different and that farmers need to feel their own way and do what is = best for their own situation. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEE5C8.E77CFAA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all.
This is the draft of an = article that was=20 published in "Harvests" here in NZ this week. Carl (the = writer) and=20 Alastair are members of the Northland BD group. The published article is = hardly=20 different and has diagrams.
Cheers
Gareth
Whangarei = NZ

As the name suggests Bio Dynamics is continually = changing and=20 evolving as the movement grows and spreads its influence around the = world.=20 Different farming techniques require different adaptations and/or=20 interpretations of Steiners Lectures. New Zealand farmers have a = reputation for=20 improvisation and biodynamic farming has developed considerably to cope = with the=20 difficulties associated with larger scale farming. Steiner encouraged = this=20 innovative and free thinking, saying each farming system is different = and that=20 farmers need to feel their own way and do what is best for their own=20 situation.

Spreading 500 by hand has evolved from spreading by = hand with a=20 hearth-brush, through pumping the 500 through a spraying system on a = tractor or=20 other vehicle, to spraying by air, either by fixed wing or helicopter.=20

Alastair and I farm about 600ha between us. In the = past we have=20 spread 500 by spray tank on the back of a tractor but this proved to be=20 incredibly time consuming which especially for the spring dressing = proved to be=20 very costly. A couple of years ago we decided to try a helicopter to get = the job=20 done as quickly as possible. Without going into details, the saving of = our time=20 justified the expense of the helicopter. We set ourselves up with two = agitators=20 to stir the 500 and with one batch made up before the chopper arrived we = were=20 able to keep it flying for the afternoon without too many expensive = hold-ups.=20

However, it wasn't all plain sailing, the biggest = drawback was=20 that the chopper would be spraying thistles, gorse etc in the early = morning=20 which would leave only a few hours to decontaminate and re-calibrate his = spray=20 equipment before arriving at our spray site and still face the = possibility that=20 the weather had deteriorated too much for spraying and have to go = through the=20 same process the next day.

After discussing these problems and following on from = an idea=20 that Kevin Dodds had been nurturing for some time, Alastair and Kevin = came up=20 with the idea of suspending a small tank from the helicopter and = allowing the=20 500 to flow from it and relying on the wash from the chopper to disperse = the=20 500. We spoke to "Prickles" from Marine Helicopters who = couldn't see=20 any problems with the idea in principle but laid down a few=20 "guidelines" that we needed to stick to.

The helicopter (a Jet Ranger) is able to lift 600kg in = a=20 straight lift. This meant we could use a 450 litre drum plus frame and = still=20 give us 100kg safety margin to allow for unknown flight characteristics = of our=20 suspended load. We made up a steel frame which the tank sat in.=20 "Prickles" said that anything that is slung beneath the = chopper needed=20 to be certified. He had a set of strops that were used for that sort of = thing=20 and as long as the strops went right under the whole load so that even = if my=20 welding fell to bits in mid-flight (as if), everything would still be = contained=20 by the strops making it safe for anybody on the ground we should be OK. = He also=20 suggested a vane attached to the back of the frame to stabilise the = frame in=20 flight and hold the valve to the front ensuring that the tank would = empty=20 because of the angle that the tank would trail at.

We had negotiated a fixed price for the job based on = 20 minutes=20 flying time so we put a 32ml wheel valve on the out-let of the tank and = by trial=20 and error found that two full turns allowed the tank to empty in 18 = mins, the=20 1st half going in 7 mins. "Prickles" now knew he had to do = half the=20 farm in 7mins and complete the job in 18.

We now had to find a way to turn it in while in = flight. Easy. We=20 attached a length of alkathene pipe to a 90o = bend on the=20 valve and tied a weight to the other end of this. We then held this up, = level=20 with the top of the tank, by attaching it to a rocket launcher (an = electrically=20 operated release). This meant that the valve could be turned on to the = required=20 setting before take-off and the 500 wouldn't start to flow until the = rocket=20 launcher released the weighted pipe and it fell to the downwards=20 position.

We were set to give it a go. We had three blocks to do = so we had=20 900 litres of 500 made up by the time the chopper arrived. 450 litres of = this=20 went into the spreading tank and the rest went into a holding tank. Then = another=20 450 litres was set stirring to be ready by the time the second tankful = had been=20 done.

The 1st tankful went on in about 12 mins so there was = a portion=20 of my block that was missed. I guess "g" forces or something = may have=20 caused the 500 to flow quicker than our static measurement, so we shut = the wheel=20 valve by 1/2 a turn, = refilled=20 the tank with the 2nd batch and tried again on Alastair's block. This = time it=20 was perfect. There was quite a strong wind blowing which probably would = have put=20 a stop to spreading with a normal helicopter spray system, but with the = bigger=20 droplet size of the "free flow" system this only assisted with = the=20 spread. Incidentally, the only pumping involved was in the transfer from = agitator to holding tank and/or spreading tank and the pump used was a=20 centrifugal pump (ie high volume/low pressure) which should be = reasonably kind=20 to the stirred molecules.

I'm sure the system will evolve as time goes on but = our first=20 experience pleased us beyond our highest expectations. The beauty of the = system=20 is in its simplicity and I hope we don't lose that.As the name suggests = Bio=20 Dynamics is continually changing and evolving as the movement grows and = spreads=20 its influence around the world. Different farming techniques require = different=20 adaptations and/or interpretations of Steiners Lectures. New Zealand = farmers=20 have a reputation for improvisation and biodynamic farming has developed = considerably to cope with the difficulties associated with larger scale = farming.=20 Steiner encouraged this innovative and free thinking, saying each = farming system=20 is different and that farmers need to feel their own way and do what is = best for=20 their own situation.

 

------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEE5C8.E77CFAA0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 06:16:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA07400 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 06:16:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA27553; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 06:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.hawaii.rr.com (smtp2.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA26900 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 05:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phyl - 204.210.127.75 by smtp2.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:46:17 -1000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990812233539.00cb55b0@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:39:48 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: Fwd: Re: BD Farms in India in Thailand Cc: ila jhaveri Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_62817395==_.ALT" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1502 --=====================_62817395==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" August 12, 1999 Waianae, Hawaii Dear Friends, Some friends are headed out to tour Thailand and India. They've asked me to ask BDNow folks if anyone knows of any biodynamic farms in India or Thailand. Thanks, Phyl ============================================== pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com Phyl Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. Waianae, HI 96792 808-696-1010 808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_62817395==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" August 12, 1999 Waianae, Hawaii

Dear Friends,

Some friends are headed out to tour Thailand and India. They've asked me to ask BDNow folks if anyone knows of any biodynamic farms in India or Thailand.

Thanks,

Phyl


==============================================
pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com

Phyl Dwyer
Kahumana Farm
86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd.
Waianae, HI 96792

808-696-1010
808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_62817395==_.ALT-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 09:16:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA08859 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:16:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03250; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:02:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA00360 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:49:39 -0400 (EDT) From: NEILLCO@aol.com Received: from NEILLCO@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hVOYa06252 (552) for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9bafc357.24e560d7@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:51:51 EDT Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1503 I think people would be better off if they stopped saying how ridiculous other peoples interpretations of reality were and tried harder to find out what it really is for themselves. Some people beleive the earthe is carried on the back of a giant turtle-so what's it to you? There's probably not a human mind in existence that could tell you what everything is, all of the time. Grow up. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 09:22:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA08912 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04609; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04194 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:06:51 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hOVWa22962 (4253) for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:08:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:08:58 EDT Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 31 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1504 In a message dated 8/13/1999 6:06:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, NEILLCO@aol.com writes: << I think people would be better off if they stopped saying how ridiculous other peoples interpretations of reality were and tried harder to find out what it really is for themselves. Some people beleive the earthe is carried on the back of a giant turtle-so what's it to you? There's probably not a human mind in existence that could tell you what everything is, all of the time. Grow up. >> well, then we ought not confuse you with the facts, your mind is already made up. The main problem seems to be "interpretation," as opposed to fact. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 09:26:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09023 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:26:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05257; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05154 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:11:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.135.98] (pm3bky1-135-98.intrepid.net [209.190.135.98]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA04833; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:14:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199908131314.JAA04833@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes Date: Fri, 13 Aug 99 08:21:48 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1505 More on evolution.... It's not often that a person can have a direct experience with a force like evolution, but I can testify to one. Spiritual teacher, Jean Houston, does an "evolution" exercise in her workshops that really works. I've done it twice. The first time was the most dramatic. A brief outline is that people spend a few minutes "being" a particular level of life form starting with the most basic -- I believe it was fish. Houston explains some basic characteristics of the level (how it moves etc.) and folks "be" that level. After a few minutes, she then "moves" the group to the next level. I had my epiphany at the amphibian level where movement is restricted to left side together/right side together. As I was moving around the room in this pattern I was literally overcome with a wave of desire to move better, to "leap" to the next level. It was obvious to me that I was "feeling" the motive force of evolution. Jeanne From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 09:26:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09055 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:26:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05300; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:12:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05186 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.135.98] (pm3bky1-135-98.intrepid.net [209.190.135.98]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA04958; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:14:53 -0400 Message-Id: <199908131314.JAA04958@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes Date: Fri, 13 Aug 99 08:22:13 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1506 On evolution and creation..... >A better analogy would be downloading files. There is a source file, >each download creates a clone. The error-checking protocols you use >to download the clone has a failure rate of about 1 in 16 billion. >If this file is downloaded 200 billion times a day, we can assume that >12 corrupted files per day will make it to the user. > >Depending on the type of file, you may not notice the corruption. If >file is an image, maybe one pixel will be a different shade of blue. >For a text file, maybe a capital A gets transformed to lower case. >Neither is a real problem and will go unnoticed. If you download a >program, it may crash, it may cause no problem but there is the >possibility that it corrects a bug. I love using computer activities as analogies for all sorts of Divine activities. It verifies my postulation that silicon life forms were "sent" to humans to help them understand by experiencing some important spiritual realities such as universal mind (the Internet,) death (a system crash) etc. Jeanne Mozier From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 09:33:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09176 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06785; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:19:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06611 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:18:44 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hSIDa22972 (4253) for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:20:42 EDT Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 31 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1507 In a message dated 8/13/1999 6:18:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, star@intrepid.net writes: << I love using computer activities as analogies for all sorts of Divine activities. It verifies my postulation that silicon life forms were "sent" to humans to help them understand by experiencing some important spiritual realities such as universal mind (the Internet,) death (a system crash) etc. >> so when does the UFO that Heaven's Gate was waiting for going to pick you up? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 09:54:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09682 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:54:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08594; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:40:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08377 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:37:57 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hXGJa23997 (3998) for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:40:00 EDT Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 31 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1508 that was a joke, btw From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 09:58:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09748 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:58:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08927; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:44:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08627 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:41:09 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hNOQa09400 (3998) for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <79a6479d.24e57aeb@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:43:07 EDT Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 31 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1509 In a message dated 8/13/1999 6:22:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, star@intrepid.net writes: << I had my epiphany at the amphibian level where movement is restricted to left side together/right side together. As I was moving around the room in this pattern I was literally overcome with a wave of desire to move better, to "leap" to the next level. It was obvious to me that I was "feeling" the motive force of evolution. >> so something you had that sounds equal to a "religious experience," "personal revelation," or some other such nonsense therefore "proves" evolution? Well, God save the queen, why didn't you tell this to us sooner? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 11:56:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14691 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:56:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15928; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:42:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15771 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:40:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([195.44.204.47]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:43:17 +0100 Message-ID: <37B2E384.55E@cwcom.net> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:08:52 +0100 From: Tony Nelson-Smith Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ( For those who use the Preps: JPI Recommendations) On the E References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1510 Yeah, Charlie, but it's in Madagascar; 2090 is the next eclipse visible from Britain. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 11:56:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14918 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16032; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:42:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rmx02.mail.com (rmx02.mail.com [165.251.32.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15834 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web10.pub01 (web10.pub01.mail.com [165.251.32.20]) by rmx02.mail.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA22517 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:44:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <387691989.934559052836.JavaMail.root@web10.pub01> Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:44:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.161.18.155 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1511 I followed your argument with interest and agreement until you turned caustic. For heaven's sake, you lost all the ground you gained. Do you just need to be right, or are you truly interested in presenting truth? ------Original Message------ From: JLacome@aol.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sent: August 13, 1999 1:43:07 PM GMT Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes In a message dated 8/13/1999 6:22:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, star@intrepid.net writes: << I had my epiphany at the amphibian level where movement is restricted to left side together/right side together. As I was moving around the room in this pattern I was literally overcome with a wave of desire to move better, to "leap" to the next level. It was obvious to me that I was "feeling" the motive force of evolution. >> so something you had that sounds equal to a "religious experience," "personal revelation," or some other such nonsense therefore "proves" evolution? Well, God save the queen, why didn't you tell this to us sooner? ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 13:10:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18767 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:10:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20499; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:56:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20375 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:53:58 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hPCEa13735 (4189) for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:56:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40df5f72.24e5a827@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:56:07 EDT Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 31 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1512 In a message dated 8/13/1999 8:48:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, pamdetray@email.com writes: << I followed your argument with interest and agreement until you turned caustic. For heaven's sake, you lost all the ground you gained. Do you just need to be right, or are you truly interested in presenting truth? >> i'm truly interested, but this stuff about "experiencing" evolution is slightly strange, wouldn't you say so? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 14:11:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA21003 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:11:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25965; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:57:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sand.global.net.uk ([195.147.248.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25148 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:50:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p39s02a02.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.146.58] helo=compaq) by sand.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11FLVt-00005o-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:53:09 +0100 Message-ID: <37B45A71.4CBC@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:48:33 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: BD Farms in India in Thailand References: <4.1.19990812233539.00cb55b0@pop-server> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1513 Phyl Dwyer wrote: > > August 12, 1999 Waianae, Hawaii > > Dear Friends, > > Some friends are headed out to tour Thailand and India. They've asked > me to ask BDNow folks if anyone knows of any biodynamic farms in India > or Thailand. > > Thanks, > > Phyl > > ============================================== > pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com > > Phyl Dwyer > Kahumana Farm > 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. > Waianae, HI 96792 > > 808-696-1010 > 808-696-2020 Fax It gives me gret pleasure to advise you that there is a tea garden run by Rajah Bannerjee called Makaibari BD Tea Garden I will find the full address and post it later it is fantastic and well worth a visit I spent a couple of weeks there several years ago so I should know Rex Tyler -- ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 15:53:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA26874 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04770; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:37:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04624 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.164] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.164]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FGF00F9V5QF1N@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:49:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:57:30 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes In-reply-to: <40df5f72.24e5a827@aol.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1514 >In a message dated 8/13/1999 8:48:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >pamdetray@email.com writes: > ><< I followed your argument with interest and agreement until you turned > caustic. For heaven's sake, you lost all the ground you gained. Do you just > need to be right, or are you truly interested in presenting truth? > >> > >i'm truly interested, but this stuff about "experiencing" evolution is >slightly strange, wouldn't you say so? Indeed it is strange (not previously know, seen, etc. unusual, extraordinary...), so it is burying cow horns fill with grounded quartz, and that is what we do, is'nt ? This list IMHO is extraordinary in many ways, that is why I started this topic going. Let me thank you for your posts, but lets keep the discussions above ordinary. Cheers. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 16:07:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA27132 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:07:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05852; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05754 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:50:28 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hSDRa24004 (4253) for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:52:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40e12fba.24e5d17d@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:52:29 EDT Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 31 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1515 In a message dated 8/13/1999 12:43:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, romerog@col1.telmex.net.mx writes: << Indeed it is strange (not previously know, seen, etc. unusual, extraordinary...), so it is burying cow horns fill with grounded quartz, and that is what we do, is'nt ? >> not really. It's proven to work, at least from what I've heard (I still have to apply preps to see for myself). Depending the way you explain how the preps are created is probably what would cause someone to think it's peculiar. If applying the preps required a sacrificial virgin, or something to that effect, then indeed it would be strange. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 16:25:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA27549 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06917; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:09:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cougar.ssi.stratus.com (cougar.ssi.stratus.com [198.97.42.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06818 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:08:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by cougar.ssi.stratus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA18685 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:10:10 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37B2E384.55E@cwcom.net> Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:10:10 -0400 (EDT) Organization: Society for Real Time Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org From: Charlie Hodgson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ( For those who use the Preps: JPI Recommendations) On the E Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Sender: chuck@cougar.ssi.stratus.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1516 On 12-Aug-99 Tony Nelson-Smith wrote: > Yeah, Charlie, but it's in Madagascar; 2090 is the next eclipse visible > from Britain. Tony N-S. Tony, Thanks, I did some checking and the 223 month cycle is just for when the nodes meet (moon being full while crossing the ecliptic) I had always assumed the by cycle that it included the orientation of the earth. A stupid assumption, since a cycle including that would necessarily require the cycle to be a whole number of years. CHARLIE From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 22:09:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA03617 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 22:09:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA22516; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 21:48:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22425 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 21:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.174] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.174]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FGF00EIPNG7Z3@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:12:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:20:09 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes In-reply-to: <40e12fba.24e5d17d@aol.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1517 >In a message dated 8/13/1999 12:43:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >romerog@col1.telmex.net.mx writes: > ><< Indeed it is strange (not previously know, seen, etc. unusual, >extraordinary...), so it is burying cow horns fill with grounded quartz, and >that is what we do, is'nt ? >> > >not really. It's proven to work, at least from what I've heard (I still have >to apply preps to see for myself). Depending the way you explain how the >preps are created is probably what would cause someone to think it's >peculiar. If applying the preps required a sacrificial virgin, or something >to that effect, then indeed it would be strange. OK, you win. Cheers Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 13 23:54:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08499 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 23:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA01681; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 23:37:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA01546 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 23:34:49 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hRFCa05147 (4187) for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 23:37:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 23:37:02 EDT Subject: New Subject To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 31 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1518 has anyone heard of "pyramid" and/or orgone energies? If so, what have the results been with those "energies" & agriculture, if any. I'm also curious if those "energies" are the same thing or not. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 14 06:58:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA20775 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 06:58:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA12832; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 06:42:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA12796 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 06:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.177] (pm3mbr5-166-242.intrepid.net [209.190.166.242]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA19689 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 06:44:36 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 18:49:04 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: ADMIN: Re: New Subject Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1519 >has anyone heard of "pyramid" and/or orgone energies? If so, what have the >results been with those "energies" & agriculture, if any. I'm also curious >if those "energies" are the same thing or not. When posting to BD Now!, please "SIGN" your messages with at least your first name and your email address. In answer to your questions, 'pyramid energy' is related to sacred geometry energy work. "Orgone energy" was discovered by Wilhelm Reich. to my knowledge, Reich never used pyramids to capture orgone, what he used was 'cabinets' that were built of alternating sheets of organic/inorganic materials. (cooper sheeting followed by wool felt, for example). It's safe to assume, however, that on some level, in some aspect, the energies 'captured' by pyramids are related to the energies 'accumulated' by an orgone box. Another question is 'Is paramagnetism related to orgone?' At this time, the answer is about the same: maybe. :-) (An aside)The 'vest' that Callahan made and wore to cure himself of lung cancer certainly sounds like an 'orgone blanket,' a device Reich made for allowing peole to accumulated healing orgone energies 'right where it hurts.' Allan Balliett moderator BD Now! igg@Igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 14 10:21:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22777 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 10:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16452; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 09:57:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA16323 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 09:53:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d145.infoserve.net [199.175.157.145]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA07204 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 07:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000e01bee65d$6b423280$919dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF / Fw: GEN8-13 Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 07:00:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1520 FYI, Michael mroboz@infoserve.net -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Saturday, August 14, 1999 3:50 AM Subject: GEN8-13 >GE - Resource list from Luke Anderson >Resources >There are hundreds of groups around the world campaigning on genetic >engineering issues. While some choose to focus on the genetic engineering >of crops, others focus on patenting. Some want complete bans, some the >labelling of genetically engineered products, and others moratoriums, while >others are simply concentrating on raising public awareness in any way they >can. Listed below are just a few of these groups and organisations-if you >don't find the information you are seeking here, many of these groups may >be able to put you in touch with other sources of information and support. >First points of contact in the UK >Genetic Engineering Network, PO Box 9656, London N4 4JY. Tel: 0181 374 >9516. > Valuable first point of contact which aims to >provide information that helps people to take action. Puts individuals in >touch with different national and international campaigns, and especially >local groups throughout the country. Offers help on a range of issues, >e.g. how to set up a campaign in your area, ideas for protests and things >you can do if you don't have much time to spare. Also publish bi-monthly >newsletter, Genetix Update. > >Greenpeace UK 'True Food Campaign', Canonbury Villas, Islington, London, N1 >2PN. Tel: 0171 865 8100. > Working with consumers, food >professionals, retail outlets, gardeners, restaurants and the food >industry to provide practical ways to stop the genetic engineering of food >and to promote organic. Provide campaigning material including leaflets, >stickers, briefings etc. Greenpeace has 110 local groups around the >country, all of whom are campaigning on this issue. Daily news updates on >their website. See also Greenpeace International on p.125. > >Friends Of the Earth Campaign for Real Food, 26-28 Underwood Street, London >N1 7JQ. Tel: 0171 490 1555, Fax: 490 0881. > >Has 250 local groups campaigning on GE. Very active on government and >regulatory issues, and putting pressure on retailers. Also involved in >legal challenges on issues such as field trials and seed laws. FOE provides >free briefings and leaflets on GE as well as a monthly news update on their >website. > >Soil Association, Bristol House, 40-56 Victoria Street, Bristol BS1 6BY. >Tel: 0117 914 2449, Fax: 0117 925 2504. > Leading organic food and farming charity, >representing both farmers and consumers. Actively campaigning for a ban on >GE in agriculture in the UK. Provides free information on organic farming >and GE, including campaign leaflets, technical briefings, scientific >papers and info on what you can do. > >Women's Environmental Network, 87 Worship Street, London EC2A 2BE. Tel: >0171 247 3327, Fax: 0171 247 4740. > WEN has a core group of >geneticists and biologists, and is very active and well informed on GE >issues. Information packs available with detailed information about >GE-related issues, and also practical campaigning resources with ideas for >action that can be taken by individuals and groups. > >Totnes Genetics Group, PO Box 77, Totnes, TQ9 5ZJ. Tel: 01803 840098, Fax: >864591. > Very active community-based campaign in South >Devon. Provides speakers, info, resources, ideas, support, street theatre, >and other ideas for local campaigning. Website contains contact details of >local groups throughout the UK, links to other groups and practical >campaigning information. Other campaigns in the UK >ActionAid, Campaigns, Hamlyn House, Macdonald Road, Archway, London N19 >5PG. Tel: 0171 561 7611, Fax: 0171 281 5146. > Active at a grass roots level in 30 countries. Working >on an international food rights campaign, and is increasingly focused on >GE and patenting. Published a report on Astra-Zeneca in May 99-see their >website. > >Campaign against Human Genetic Engineering, PO Box 6313, London N16 0DY. > Opposes the genetic engineering of humans. Also >working on related issues such as genetic discrimination and eugenics. > >Compassion in World Farming, Charles House, 5A Charles Street, Petersfield >GU32 3EH. Tel: 01730 264208 / 268863, Fax: 01730 260791. > Concerned about the genetic >engineering of animals and xenotransplantation. Provides videos and other >resources suitable for use in schools, etc. > >Earth First! UK >63 local groups in the UK. Activities include grassroots organising, civil >disobedience and direct action. Important network for radical environmental >activists and covers anti-GE protest in its monthly newsletter (contact > or send s.a.e. c/o Cornerstone Resource Centre, >16 Sholebroke Avenue, Leeds LS7 3HB. 01132 629 365). > >The Gaia Foundation, 18 Well Walk, Hampstead, London NW3 1LD. Tel: 0171 >435 5000, Fax: 0171 431 0551. Links with farmers, >scientists and grass roots organisations in Third World. Raises awareness >about the impact of GE and patenting in these countries. > >Genetix Food Alert, c/o 23 Fleming Street, Glasgow G31 1PQ. Tel: 0141 554 >6099, Fax: 0141 556 5589. >Initiative founded by the UK wholefood trade to source and supply GE-free >products. Provides practical information about these issues. > >GeneWatch UK, The Courtyard, Whitecross Road, Tideswell, Buxton SK17 8NY. >Tel: 01298 871898, Fax: 01298 872531. > Specialises in the >science, ethics, risks and regulation of GE. Undertakes research and >analysis on its implications. Published a detailed report in June 1999 on >the releases of GE microorganisms into the environment. > >Henry Doubleday Research Association (HDRA), Ryton Organic Gardens, >Ryton-on-Dunsmore, Coventry CV21 3LG. Tel: 01203 303517, Fax: 01203 639229. > >Europe's largest organic association, which researches and provides advice >on organic gardening and growing. Runs schemes to preserve traditional >vegetable varieties which would otherwise be casualties of EC legislation. > >International Society for Ecology and Culture, Apple Barn, Week, >Dartington, Totnes, Devon TQ9 6JP. Affiliated to the >International Forum on Globalisation. Write to ISEC for information on >globalisation/free trade issues. > >The Pesticides Trust, Eurolink Centre, 49 Effra Road, London SW2 1BZ. Tel: >0171 274 8895, Fax: 0171 274 9084. > A charity addressing the health and >environmental problems of pesticides and working for a sustainable future. >Has newsletter and publications list. > >Other international and national organisations Action for Solidarity, >Equality, Environment and Development (ASEED), PO Box 92066, 1090AB >Amsterdam, Holland. Tel: 20 66 82 236, Fax: 20 66 50 166. > <http://antenna.nl/aseed/> >Global youth network focusing on issues of environment and development. >Initiates and coordinates actions and campaigns. ASEED Europe comprises >organisations and individuals in over 30 European countries. > >Australian Gene Ethics Network (AGEN), 340 Gore St, Fitzroy 3065, Victoria, >Australia. Tel: 03 9416 2222, Fax: 03 9416 0767. > Federation of groups and individuals in Australia >promoting critical discussion and debate on the environmental, social and >ethical impacts of GE. > >Campaign for Food Safety (Formerly Pure Food Campaign), 860 Highway 61, >Little Marais, Minnesota 55614, USA. Tel: 218 226 4164, Fax: 218 226 4157. > Dedicated to healthy, safe, >and sustainable systems of food production. Acts as a global clearinghouse >for info on GE; offers grassroots technical assistance. > >Council for Responsible Genetics, 5 Upland Road, Suite 3, Cambridge, MA >02140, USA. Tel: 617 868 0870, Fax: 617 491 5344. > Focuses on human genetics issues including genetic >discrimination and patenting. Also active on biosafety and consumer 'right >to know' issues. Produces and distributes educational materials. > >The Edmonds Institute, 20319-92nd Avenue West, Edmonds, Washington 98020, >USA. Tel: 425-775-5383, Fax: 425-670-8410. > Conducts research, answers inquiries, >publishes policy analysis and scientific thought pieces, distributes >information, sponsors public workshops, provides expert witnesses at >national events and for international bodies engaged in decision-making. >Disseminates information about and criticism of technology assessment, >encourages pro bono research and policy analysis by scientists and >scholars, and seeks to create alliances and coalitions with like-minded >organisations and individuals. Contact: Beth Burrows. > >Genetic Concern, Camden House, 7 Upper Camden Street, Dublin 2, Ireland. >Tel: 353 1 476 0360, Fax: 353 1 476 0361. > >Provides info and promotes debate on GE issues. Has campaigned against the >releases of GE crops in Ireland, challenging them in the Irish Courts. > >Genetic Resources Action International (GRAIN), Girona 25, pral. E-08010 >Barcelona, Spain. Tel: 34 93 301 1381, Fax: 34 93 301 1627. > International NGO with offices in >Spain and the Philippines, established in 1990 to help further a global >movement of popular action against the threat of genetic erosion. Very >well informed on patenting, biodiversity, etc. > >Greeenpeace International, Chaussesstr. 131-10115 Berlin, Germany. Tel: 49 >30 30 889914, Fax: 889930. > International environmental organisation >that both lobbies and takes non-violent direct action. Opposed to the >release of genetically manipulated organisms into the environment. Their >new GE website includes info on a range of issues, as well as press >releases, information about actions, etc. > >Organic Consumers Association, 860 Highway 61, Little Marais, MN 55614, >USA. Tel: 218 226 4792, Fax:218 226 4157. > Protects the integrity of the organic label, >promotes sustainable agriculture, and opposes the use of genetic >engineering in food and farming. > >Pesticide Action Network (PAN), North American Office (PANNA). 49 Powell >St., Suite 500, San Francisco, CA 94102, USA. Tel: 415 981 1771, Fax: 415 >981 1991. > Has campaigned to replace pesticides with >ecologically sound alternatives since 1982. PANNA is one of five PAN >Regional Centers in Africa, Asia/Pacific, Latin America, Europe and North >America. > >Research Foundation For Science, Technology & Natural Resource Policy, A-60 >Haus Khas, New Delhi 110016, India. Tel: 91 11 696 8077, Fax: 685 6795. > > Focuses on biodiversity conservation, >food security, globalisation, patenting, genetic engineering, biosafety, >sustainable agriculture, WTO and GATT. > >Rural Advancement Foundation International (RAFI) 110 Osborne St., Suite >202, Winnipeg, Ontario, Canada R3L 1Y5 Tel: 204 453 5259, Fax: 204 925 >8034. An international non-governmental >organisation dedicated to the conservation, sustainability and improvement >of agricultural biodiversity, and to the socially responsible development >of technologies useful to rural societies. RAFI is an important contact >for info on patenting, terminator technology, the biotech industry and the >loss of genetic diversity, and the relationship of these issues to human >rights, agriculture and world food security. > >Third World Network, International Secretariat, 228 Macalister Road, 10400 >Penang, Malaysia. Tel: 60 4 2266728 or 2266159, Fax: 2264505. > > >Network of organisations and individuals involved in issues relating to >development, the Third World and North-South issues. Their website is a >useful source of information about biopiracy, patents, the WTO and GE. > >Union of Concerned Scientists, National HQ, 2 Brattle Square, Cambridge, MA >02238-9105, USA. Tel: 617 547 5552. > > >Alliance of 70,000 committed citizens and leading scientists who aim to >"augment rigorous scientific research with public education and citizen >advocacy to help build a cleaner, healthier environment and a safer world". >Provides a critique of the various applications of genetic engineering, and >supports sustainable alternatives. See Gene Exchange, p.127. Magazines, >Journals etc >Corner House Briefings, The Corner House, P.O. Box 3137, Station Road, >Sturminster Newton, Dorset DT10 1YJ, UK. > Detailed briefings by a skilled >team of researchers, which include one on the issue of patenting, and >another on GE and World Hunger. > >Corporate Watch, Tel: 01865 791391. > > Magazine which addresses the power of >multinational corporations. From September 1999, the independent research >group (also called Corporate Watch) which publishes the magazine will be >providing information on the biotech industry as a resource for anti-GE >campaigners. > >The Ecologist, Unit 18, Chelsea Wharf, 15 Lots Road, London SW10 0QJ. >Tel: 0171 351 3578, Fax: 0171 351 3617. > Publishing radical green thought for 30 years. >Regular features and updates on issues related to genetic engineering and >the biotech industry. > >Earth First! Journal, Contact: Earth First!, POB 1415, Eugene, OR 97440, >USA. Tel: 541 344 8004, Fax: 344 7688. > A forum for the radical >environmental movement: news and views of radical ecologists and >discussions of direct action. Published eight times a year. > >The Gene Exchange > >A valuable resource, edited by Jane Rissler and Margaret Mellon from the >Union of Concerned Scientists. Look up website for info on how to receive >by email. By post, send request to Direct Mail Administrator, UCS, Two >Brattle Square, Cambridge, MA 02238-9105. > >GenEthics News, PO Box 6313, London N16 0DY, UK. <101561.3476@compuserve.com> > Founded by >geneticist Dr. David King. Bimonthly newsletter covering the ethical, >social and environmental issues raised by GE and human genetics. > >Genetic Network News, c/o ngin, 26 Pottergate, Norwich NR2 1DX, UK. > > Free newssheet published bi-monthly by >Norfolk Genetic Information Network. Send large sae for information. Also >see website. > >Genetix Update see Genetic Engineering Network, p.122. > >GeneWATCH (not to be confused with GeneWatch UK!) is a magazine produced by >the Council for Responsible Genetics (see p.125). > >GeneWatch Briefings Valuable briefings from GeneWatch UK, see p.124. > >GM-FREE magazine Tel: 01695 50504 >. Magazine which aims to >warn people of the risks to health and the environment from GE. > >Manual for Assessing Ecological and Human Health Effects of Genetically >Engineered Organisms A two-volume, peer-reviewed manual written by a group >of scientists from a wide range of disciplines. Available for cost of >mailing from the Edmonds Institute (see p.125). > >The Monsanto Monitor Same contact as ASEED Europe, p.124. A resource for >organisations and individuals campaigning against Monsanto and its >products. > >Permaculture Magazine Hyden House Ltd, The Sustainability Centre, East >Meon, Hants. Tel: 01730 823311. Quarterly >magazine. Can also be contacted for general info about permaculture, >including local contacts and details of the UK Permaculture Association. >Send £1 in stamps for a sample copy of the magazine. > >RAFI Communiqués Valuable and detailed analysis of patenting issues, >terminator technology and the life science industry. See RAFI, p.126. > >The Ram's Horn S6 C27 RR#1, Sorrento BC, V0E 2W0, Canada. Tel/Fax: (250) >675-4866. > Eight pages of information and analysis of the food >system, published monthly. Increasingly focused on the issues and dangers >posed by GE. > >Seedling (see GRAIN for contact details). Quarterly newsletter which aims >to provide a platform for the exchange of news and analysis among people >engaged in GE issues. Free to groups and individuals in the Third World and >also to campaign groups in the West. > >Selling Suicide: farming, false promises and genetic engineering in >developing countries Report published by Christian Aid and available from >them at PO Box 100, London SE1 7RT, or on the web at >. > >The Splice of Life c/o The Genetics Forum, 94 White Lion Street, London >N1 9PS. Tel: 0171 837 9229, Fax: 0171 837 1141. geneticforum@gn.apc.org > The magazine produced by The Genetics Forum, a >UK watchdog on GE issues. It covers the social, environmental and ethical >implications of GE. > >Third World Resurgence see Third World Network (TWN), p.126. Monthly >magazine published by TWN on the environment, health and basic needs, >international affairs, politics, economics, culture, etc. from Third World >perspective. >Email information services >Genetic Engineering Network (GEN) List 1 A UK-based, free service; a >moderated list averaging about 5 emails per day. Includes information about >all aspects of GE with a close eye on worldwide resistance to the >technology (Archived as 'info4action' at since 1998). GEN >List 2 is a much quieter list which sends out GEN's newsletter as well as >action reports. Email to subscribe and state which of >the two lists you want to be on (all info in list 2 is covered by list 1). > >BAN GEF Free US-run list with useful daily digest. For instructions send >email to with HELP in the Subject line. > >BIO-IPR In-depth list put out by GRAIN (see p.125). Circulates information >about recent developments in the field of patenting related to >biodiversity, etc. To join, send the word "subscribe" (no quote marks) as >the subject of an email message to . > >Center for Food Safety To subscribe to the free electronic newsletter, >Campaign for Food Safety News (formerly called Food Bytes), send an email >to with the simple message in the body of the text: >subscribe pure-food-action. > >GENET Moderated list: information exchange among European NGOs and >grassroot groups (archived at since 1998). Email > for subscription details (service is not free). > >GENTECH Unmoderated list about all aspects of genetic engineering >(archived at since 1995). Send a message with the word >"subscribe" in the subject to: . > >Nginews Free e-mail bulletins from Norfolk Genetic Information Network. >Email with the word "subscribe". > >NLP Wessex List Concentrates on crop issues. Subscribe on website: >. > >Organic Consumers Association To subscribe to the free electronic >newsletter, Organic View, send an email to > with "subscribe" written in the body of >the text. > >PANUPS Free weekly on-line news service from PANNA (see p.126). >Subscription information available on website . > >Rachel's Environment & Health Weekly Weekly news with searchable archive >at . Send the word "Subscribe" by itself (no quote >marks) in an email to: . > >WEN Local food list Biodiversity, local food and >sustainable agriculture. UK-based, but also contains international news. >Other information on websites >Ag BioTech InfoNet > Focuses on scientific >reports and technical analysis of GE issues. Aims to provide a forum where >a broad spectrum of people and organizations can raise tough questions, >report new technical findings, and offer conflicting views. > >Food 'n' Health 'n' Hope > Visit this site to listen to (or download) >a song about a certain company. > >Genetic Engineering and Its Dangers > >A series of articles and essays covers a wide range of issues including GE >and biological weapons, spiritual perspectives etc. Compiled by Dr Ron >Epstein, Philosophy Department, College of Humanities, San Francisco State >University, San Francisco, CA 94132, USA. > >Genetix Snowball Website and handbook of the >Genetix Snowball, a "campaign of nonviolent civil responsibility", which >aims "to safely remove GE crops from the ground". > >Ifgene > Particular focus on the worldviews with >which people approach science, and the moral and spiritual implications of >biotechnology. > >List of GE test sites in the UK > >Visit this website to find out where your nearest test site is: just type >in your postcode or village/town name. Test site information can also be >obtained from the Department of the Environment, Tel: 0171 890 5275/5277. > >OneWorld Online > >Dedicated to promoting human rights and sustainable development by >harnessing the democratic potential of the Internet. Highly regarded >website. > >Physicians and Scientists for Responsible Application of Science and >Technology A global network of scientists. >Website e range of science-based information about the hazards of GE. An >important resource if you want more scientific detail about these issues. > >UK Five Year Freeze > >Find out here how to join the UK coalition (over 90 national organisations >by July '99) calling for a five year 'freeze' on all releases of GE >organisms, all GE food imports, and all patents on food crops. > >Wessex Natural Law Party > Useful resource, >especially for farming-related issues. Contains lists of quotes about GE >from scientists, farmers and other public figures. Recommended books on >genetic engineering The Biotech Century: Harnessing the Gene and Remaking >the World by Jeremy Rifkin, Tarcher/Putnam (New York), 1998. Very readable >overview of developments within the field of GE. > >The Ecological Risks of Engineered Crops by Jane Rissler and Margaret >Mellon, MIT Press, 1996. One of the key texts on GE and the environment. > >Biotechnology, Weapons and Humanity, British Medical Association, London, >1999. Covers the issue of GE and biological warfare. > >Biopolitics edited by Vandana Shiva and Ingunn Moser, Zed Books, London, >1995. Essays analysing the politics of the biotech industry. > >Biopiracy: The Plunder of Nature and Knowledge by Vandana Shiva, Green >Books, 1998. Patenting, biopiracy and the 'new colonialism'. > >Exploding the Gene Myth by Ruth Hubbard and Elijah Wald, Beacon Press, >1997. A critique of genetic determinism. > >Brave New Worlds: Staying Human in the Genetic Future by Bryan Appleyard, >Viking Press, New York, 1998. Explores human GE issues. > > >Farmageddon: Food and the Culture of Biotechnology by Brewster Kneen, New >Society, Gabriola Island, BC, 1999. Critique of GE as reductionist science, >motivated by corporate profit. > > >Genetic Engineering: Dream or Nightmare? The Brave New World of Bad Science >and Big Business by Mae-Wan Ho, Gateway Books, 1998. Scientific critique of >GE and mechanistic views of the genome. > >Against the Grain by Mark Lappé and Britt Bailey, Earthscan, 1999. Covers >agricultural GE issues, such as the impacts of herbicide-resistant crops. > >Eat Your Genes: How Genetically Modified Food is Entering our Diet by >Stephen Nottingham, Zed Books Ltd, 1998. Detailed information on issues >ranging from the science of GE to the regulatory systems in Europe & USA. > >The Human Body Shop: The Engineering and Marketing of Life by Andrew >Kimbrell, HarperSanFrancisco, 1993. Accessible introduction to the >commercialisation of the human body. > >For all those who are interested in the relationship between apathy and >action, and the response of the human heart to ecological crisis, I >recommend the following two books: > >Coming Back to Life: Practices to Reconnect Our Lives, Our World by Joanna >Macy and Molly Young Brown, New Society, Canada, 1998. A heartful book >which contains a wealth of practical information and exercises that can be >used by both groups and individuals. > >World as Lover, World as Self by Joanna Macy, Parallax Press, Berkeley, >1991. Explores activism, ecological despair, systems theory and spiritual >practice. > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 14 14:38:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA05244 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 14:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25913; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 14:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (root@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca [199.60.222.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25805 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 14:17:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DialupEudora (eudora@vtn1 [199.60.222.3]) by vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA04442 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 11:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 11:20:04 -0700 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: klokeid@victoria.tc.ca (Terry J. Klokeid) Subject: Biodynamic reading, was Re: ADMIN: Re: New Subject Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1521 I would like to read something about biodynamics, and I would be grateful for recommendations for introductory readings, preferably something in print at this time, preferably in German or English, and something that can be ordered through a bookstore in Canada or in Germany. (or if it's a really good book in another language, I'd consider it.) This request is not out of the blue. I have tried to obtain information over the past eyar and failed. For example, I borrowed a few titles by mail on biodynamics from the fairly extensive library of an Ontario-based group, Canadian Organic Growers, but found these few items incomprehensible. (The COG library has no catalogue of their holdings, the librarian has no subject matter knowledge, and it takes many months just to get ahold of an item from them, so I am hoping to find an easier source to deal with.) So please understand that I am not asking for a long list of titles -- just a good starting point, and prefereably in either German or English. Hopefully something that has an explanation of the geenral principles and also concrete advice that I can use to validate the approach for myself. Thanks in advance for any assistance, Terry ---- Terry J. Klokeid, Ph.D. Amblewood Organic Farm --Vegetable and herb seeds and seedlings-- 126 Amblewood Drive, Fulford Harbour, SaltSpring Island BC V8K 1X2 Voice & fax (250) 653-4099 E-mail amblewood@mail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 14 15:08:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05478 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 15:08:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27059; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 14:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26884 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 14:44:34 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hQIOa05147 (4260) for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 14:46:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <493c90ec.24e7139e@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 14:46:54 EDT Subject: Re: Biodynamic reading, was Re: ADMIN: Re: New Subject To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 31 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1522 In a message dated 8/14/1999 11:23:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, klokeid@victoria.tc.ca writes: << I would like to read something about biodynamics, and I would be grateful for recommendations for introductory readings, preferably something in print at this time, preferably in German or English, and something that can be ordered through a bookstore in Canada or in Germany. (or if it's a really good book in another language, I'd consider it.) >> try "Secrets of the Soil." Also do a search through Yahoo on biodynamics..you'll be sure to find out quite a bit that way. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 14 15:46:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA06729 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 15:46:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28772; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 15:23:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [205.236.175.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28726 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 15:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 6197 invoked from network); 14 Aug 1999 19:25:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.30.205) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 14 Aug 1999 19:25:36 -0000 Message-ID: <004501bee689$acd99040$da1ed2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: Biodynamic reading, was Re: ADMIN: Re: New Subject Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 15:17:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1523 I have read the following: Ehrenfried Pfieffer, Biodynamic Gardening and Farming, Vols. 1, 2, and 3...very down to earth and useful. Secrets of the Soil by Tompkins and Bird is well written. Agriculture by Rudolf Steiner, ISBN 0-938-250-37-1, is the translation I have, purchased at Biosfaire here in Montreal... I can send you the Pfeiffer books if you can't find them out there, Terry. Frank Teuton >I would like to read something about biodynamics, and I would be grateful >for recommendations for introductory readings, preferably something in >print at this time, preferably in German or English, and something that >can be ordered through a bookstore in Canada or in Germany. (or if it's a >really good book in another language, I'd consider it.) > >This request is not out of the blue. I have tried to obtain information >over the past eyar and failed. For example, I borrowed a few titles by mail >on biodynamics from the fairly extensive library of an Ontario-based group, >Canadian Organic Growers, but found these few items incomprehensible. (The >COG library has no catalogue of their holdings, the librarian has no >subject matter knowledge, and it takes many months just to get ahold of an >item from them, so I am hoping to find an easier source to deal with.) So >please understand that I am not asking for a long list of titles -- just a >good starting point, and prefereably in either German or English. >Hopefully something that has an explanation of the geenral principles and >also concrete advice that I can use to validate the approach for myself. > >Thanks in advance for any assistance, >Terry >---- > > > >Terry J. Klokeid, Ph.D. >Amblewood Organic Farm --Vegetable and herb seeds and seedlings-- >126 Amblewood Drive, Fulford Harbour, SaltSpring Island BC V8K 1X2 >Voice & fax (250) 653-4099 >E-mail amblewood@mail.com > > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 15 03:19:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA26819 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 03:19:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA18190; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 03:02:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04789 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 18:24:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.9] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.9]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FGH00ADAA34YE@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 17:18:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 17:26:43 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Biodynamic reading, was Re: ADMIN: Re: New Subject In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id SAA04790 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1524 >I would like to read something about biodynamics, and I would be grateful >for recommendations for introductory readings, preferably something in >print at this time, preferably in German or English, and something that >can be ordered through a bookstore in Canada or in Germany. (or if it's a >really good book in another language, I'd consider it.) > >This request is not out of the blue. I have tried to obtain information >over the past eyar and failed. For example, I borrowed a few titles by mail >on biodynamics from the fairly extensive library of an Ontario-based group, >Canadian Organic Growers, but found these few items incomprehensible. (The >COG library has no catalogue of their holdings, the librarian has no >subject matter knowledge, and it takes many months just to get ahold of an >item from them, so I am hoping to find an easier source to deal with.) So >please understand that I am not asking for a long list of titles -- just a >good starting point, and prefereably in either German or English. >Hopefully something that has an explanation of the geenral principles and >also concrete advice that I can use to validate the approach for myself. > >Thanks in advance for any assistance, >Terry Dear Terry: IMHO I started with Steiner's Agriculture and another book by Pfieffer called Agricultura sin venenos (poison free agriculture), Steiner was way out of my league, and Pfieffer too simple , not really helpfull to understand Biodynamics (Pfiffer usually avoided talking about the spiritual and cosmic side of BD). Secrets of the Soil is good book as an introduction to the history and potential of BD, but it won't help you do it. My choices for what you want would be: Hugh Lovel, "A Biodynamic Farm", ISBN 0-911311-45-9 Peter Proctor, "Grasp the Nettle", ISBN 1-86941-318-0 Both are comprehensive and both talk about the subtle and practical aspects of Biodynamic. I believe you can get Secrets of the Soil 2nd ed. from our list master, Allan Balliet. Hugh Lovel signed book I believe is available from the men himself. Lovel's and Proctor's books can be ordered from JPI and the BDA, and you can ask both of this orgs for their complete book cataloge. Probably secrets of the soil is avail here too. Contact me privately if you want the email addresses for them. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 15 03:20:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA26827 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 03:19:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA18224; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 03:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA12757 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 23:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.73] ("port 2059"@[148.233.78.73]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FGH00BHXNRXW2@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 22:14:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 22:22:26 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Spreading 500 over large areas In-reply-to: <002601bee564$538ea460$65f631ca@computer> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id XAA12758 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1525 Hi Gareth: Do you know how did they get the "decontamination" done. I remember from a discussion here long ago and in reference to a back pack sprayer that such decontamination is not posible to do completly. In that ocassion someone mentioned that it would be advisable to keep BD equipment untouched by chemicals and pesticides. For an emergency it was also said that cleansing it with sodium bicarbonate would help some. I am just curious. Regards > >However, it wasn't all plain sailing, the biggest drawback was that the >chopper would be spraying thistles, gorse etc in the early morning which would >leave only a few hours to decontaminate and re-calibrate his spray equipment >before arriving at our spray site and still face the possibility that the >weather had deteriorated too much for spraying and have to go through the same >process the next day. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 15 06:29:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA28105 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 06:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA23704; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 06:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA23065 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 06:08:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.88] (pm3mbr3-166-130.intrepid.net [209.190.166.130]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA32705 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 06:11:40 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <002601bee564$538ea460$65f631ca@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:15:56 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Spreading 500 over large areas Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1526 >Hi Gareth: > >Do you know how did they get the "decontamination" done. > >I remember from a discussion here long ago and in reference to a back pack >sprayer that such decontamination is not posible to do completly. In that >ocassion someone mentioned that it would be advisable to keep BD equipment >untouched by chemicals and pesticides. For an emergency it was also said >that cleansing it with sodium bicarbonate would help some. > It's probably propaganda from Monsanto, but I heard from MOFFA that a sprayer used for ROUNDUP and be 'de-contaminated' for use in an organically cert. garden by filling the tank with water and letting it sit in the sun for 6 hours. That's what we did with our 'botanical' sprayer to reclaim it from the dustbin after a well-meaning volunteer loaded it with RoundUP to 'remove the grass between the cracks on the mansion sidewalk' a few years back. (He didn't get v. far before he was stopped.) We use 'the prep sprayer for spraying preps. Thanks -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 15 06:29:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA28106 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 06:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA23671; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 06:12:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA23052 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 06:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.88] (pm3mbr3-166-130.intrepid.net [209.190.166.130]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA32701 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 06:11:36 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:12:07 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Biodynamic reading, was Re: ADMIN: Re: New Subject Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1527 Dear Friends: I've found that, with the appendices considered, Secrets of the Soil is the most comprehensive book for giving the whys and hows of biodynamics. The reason for this, of course (as I've mentioned on this list before), is that JPI director Hugh Courtnely essentially dictated the BD portions of SoS to Peter Tompkins. The BD Now! book pages, which earns a v. small commission for BD Now! (but every little bit helps keep us going), are at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/booksale.html Please patronize the BD Now! book pages when you can!! (There's a search engine set up there so it is possible to do ALL of your AMAZON.COM book buying through BD Now!, earning us a commission on each of your purchases (AT NO EXTRA COST TO YOU!) GRASP the NETTLE is NOT available through AMAZON and is best purchased from JPI*, who also needs you money. HUGH LOVEL may have copies of his book, but as far as I know, it is currently out of print world-wide, waiting for that 2nd edition. If you prefer a copy that HAS NOT BEEN WRITTEN IN (w/ the author's signature you get from UAI), best to get it from JPI* also (as it becomes available again.) *The Josephine Porter Institute of Applied Biodynamics Post Office Box 133 Woolwine, Virginia 24185, U.S.A. Phone/Fax 1-540-530-2463 web: http://www.igg.com/bdnow/jpi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 15 10:37:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01728 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:37:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28554; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28517 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.140] (pm3mbr3-166-140.intrepid.net [209.190.166.140]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA20047 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:21:54 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 22:26:23 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: FWD FROM OG: MONSANTO: from Seed to water Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1528 >Monsanto Expanding Vast Monopolies From Seed To Water >By Dr. Vandana Shiva >www.corpwatch.org/trac/corner/worldnews/other/416.html >8-13-99 > > Over the past few years, Monsanto, a chemical company, has positioned >itself as an agricultural company through control over seed the first link in >the food chain. Monsanto now wants to control water, the very basis of life. > In 1996, Monsanto bought the biotechnology assets of Agracetus, a >subsidiary of W.R. GRACE, for $150 million and Calagene, a California based >plant biotechnology company for $340 million. In 1997, Monsanto acquired >Holden seeds, the Brazilian seed company Sementes Agrocerus and Asgrow. In >1998, Monsanto purchased Cargill's seed operations for $1.4 billion. It >bought Delta and Pine land for $1.82 billion and Dekalb for $2.3 billion. It >bought Unilever's European wheat breeding business for $525 million. In India >Monsanto has bought Mahyco, Maharashtra Hybrid Company, E.I.D. Parry and >Rallis. Mr.Jack Kennedy of Monsanto has stated "We propose to penetrate the >Indian Agricultural sector in a big way. MAHYCO is a good vehicle." According >to Robert Farley of Monsanto "what you are seeing is not just a consolidation >of seed companies, it is really a consolidation of the entire food chain. >Since water is an central to food production as seed is, and without water >life is not possible. Monsanto is now trying to establish its control over >water. During 1999 Monsanto plans to launch a new water business, starting >with India and Mexico since both these countries are facing water shortages. > Monsanto is seeing a new business opportunity in water because of the >emerging water crisis and the funding available to make this vital resource >available to people. As it states in its strategy paper, "first we believe >that discontinuities (either major policy changes or major trendline breaks >in resource quality or quantity) are likely, particularly in the area of >water and we will be well positioned via these business to profit even more >significantly when these discontinuities occur. Second, we are exploring the >potential of non-conventional financing (NGO's, World Bank, USDA etc.) that >may lower our investment or provide local country business building >resources." Thus, the crisis of pollution and depletion of water resources is >viewed by Monsanto as a business opportunity. For Monsanto "Sustainable >Development" means the conversion of an ecological crisis into a market of >scarce resources. "The business logic of sustainable development is that >population growth and economic development will apply increasing pressure on >natural resource markets. These pressures and the world's desire to prevent >the consequences of these pressures if unabated, will create vast economic >opportunity when we look at the world through the lens of sustainability we >are in a position to see current and foresee impending resource market trends >and imbalances that create market needs. We have further focussed this lens >on the resource market of water and land. These are the markets that are >most relevant to us as a life sciences company committed to delivering "food, >health and hope" to the world, and there are markets in which there are >predictable sustainability challenges and therefore opportunities to create >business value." Monsanto plans to earn revenues of $420 million and net >income of $63 million by 2008 from its water business in India and Mexico. By >the year 2010 about 2.5 billion people in the world are projected to lack >access to safe drinking water. At least 30% of the population in China, >India, Mexico and US is expected to face severe water stress. By the year >2025 the supply of water in India will be 700 cubic kilometers per year while >the demand is expected to rise to 1050 units. Control over this scarce and >vital resource will of course be a source of guaranteed profits. As John >Bastin of the European Bank of Reconstruction and Development has stated >"Water is the last infrastructure frontier for Private investors." Monsanto >estimates that providing safe water is a several billion dollar market. It is >growing at 25 - 30% in rural communities and is estimated to be $300 million >by the year 2000 in India and Mexico. This is the amount currently spent by >NGO's for water development projects and local government water supply >schemes and Monsanto hopes to tap these public finances for providing water >to rural communities and convert water supply into market. The Indian >Government spent over $ 1.2 billion between 1992-97 for various water >projects whicle the World Bank spent $900 million. Monsanto would like to >divert this public money from public supply of water to establishing >Monsanto's water monopoly. Since in rural areas the poor cannot pay, in >Monsanto's view "Capturing a piece of the value created for this segment will >require the creation of a non-traditional mechanism targeted at building >relationships with local government and NGO's as well as through innovative >financing mechanisms, such as microcredit. Monsanto also plans to penetrate >the Indian market for safe water by establishing a joint venture with Eureka >Forbes / TATA, which controls 70% of the UV Technologies. To enter the water >business Monsanto has acquired an equity stake in Water Health International >(WHI) with an option to buy the rest of the business. Monsanto will also buy >a Japanese company which has developed electrolysis technology. The joint >venture with TATA / Eureka Forbes is supposed to provide market access, and >fabricate, distribute, service water systems, Monsanto will leverage their >brand equity in the Indian Market. The joint venture route has been chosen so >that "Monsanto can achieve management control over local operations but not >have legal consequences due to local issues." Another new business that >Monsanto is starting in 1999 in Asia in aquaculture. The aquaculture business >will build on the foundation of Monsanto's agricultural biotechnology and >capabilities for fish feed and fish breeding. By 2008 Monsanto expects to >earn revenues of $1.6 billion and net income of $266 million from its >aquaculture business. While Monsanto's entry into aquaculture is through its >Sustainable Development activity, industrial aquaculture has been established >to be highly non sustainable. The Supreme Court of India had banned >industrial shrimp farming because of it's catastrophic consequences. However, >the government, under pressure of the aquaculture industry, is attempting to >change the laws, to undo the Supreme Court order. At the same time, attempts >are being made by the World Bank to privatise water resources and establish >trade in water rights. These trends will suit Monsanto well in establishing >its new Water Business and Aquaculture business. The World Bank has already >offered to help. As the Monsanto strategy paper states "We are particularly >enthusiastic about the potential of partnering with the International Finance >Corporation (IFC) of the World Bank to joint venture projects in developing >markets. The IFC is eager to work with Monsanto to commercialise >sustainability opportunities and would bring both investment capital and on >the ground capabilities to our efforts." Monsanto's Water and Aquaculture >Business, like it's seed business, is aimed at controlling vital resources >necessary for survival, converting them into a market and using public >finances to underwrite the investments. A more efficient conversion of public >goods into private profit would be difficult to find. Water is however too >basic for life and survival. The right to water is the right to life. The >privatisation and commodification of water is a threat to the right to life. >India has had major water movements to conserve and share water. The Pani >Panchayat and the water conservation movement in Maharashtra and Tarun Bharat >Sangh in Alwar, have regenerated and equitably shared water as a commons. >This is the only way that everyone will have the right to water and nobody >will have the right to abuse and overuse water. Water is a commons and must >be managed as a commons. It cannot be controlled and sold by a Life Sciences >Corporation that peddles in Death. > >FAIR USE NOTICE. This document contains copyrighted material whose use has >not been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. Corporate Watch is >making this article available in our efforts to advance understanding of >ecological sustainability, human rights, economic democracy and social >justice issues. We believe that this constitutes a 'fair use' of the >copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. >If you wish to use this copyrighted material for purposes of your own that go >beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 15 10:59:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03839 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:59:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29333; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:41:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29235 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:39:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d147.infoserve.net [199.175.157.147]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA18818 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 07:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <003501bee72d$16fee260$939dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: JPI Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 07:46:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0024_01BEE6F2.3DAD6340" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1529 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BEE6F2.3DAD6340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Terry has only been on the list for a couple of weeks. He would not = know what JPI stands for. Perhaps somebody could post the full name and = address for him. From his voice conversation with me yesterday, he = prefers to start with a book that is as practical as possible. The Ag. = Course was a little beyond him at this stage, both in German and = English. Michael ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BEE6F2.3DAD6340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Terry has only been on the list for a couple of = weeks.  He=20 would not know what JPI stands for.  Perhaps somebody could post = the full=20 name and address for him.  From his voice conversation with me = yesterday,=20 he prefers to start with a book that is as practical as possible.  = The Ag.=20 Course was a little beyond him at this stage, both in German and = English. =20 Michael
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BEE6F2.3DAD6340-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 15 11:08:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03907 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29638; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29555 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:50:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bdl (pm1a1.ben.sover.net [207.136.200.33]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA16641 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:53:29 -0400 (EDT) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) bdl from pm1a1.ben.sover.net [207.136.200.33] 207.136.200.33 Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:53:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00d201bee72d$375f7560$21c888cf@bdl> From: "B. David Lively" To: Subject: Re: FWD FROM OG: MONSANTO: from Seed to water Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:48:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1530 Allan, This minitory message of Monsanto's methods to madness, makes me furious. Seems that Anti-Trust should be putting the brakes to this miscreant manufacturer of poisons before they control government itself. imo Dave B. David Lively 3H Farm Bennington, Vermont bdl@sover.net Visit **Dairy Action** at http://www.digital.net/milk Join the Dairy Action Discussion List: http://www.digital.net/milk/joindadl.htm Nancy H. Lively "May you live all the days of your life" -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, August 15, 1999 10:24 AM Subject: OFF: FWD FROM OG: MONSANTO: from Seed to water >>Monsanto Expanding Vast Monopolies From Seed To Water >>By Dr. Vandana Shiva >>www.corpwatch.org/trac/corner/worldnews/other/416.html >>8-13-99 >> >> Over the past few years, Monsanto, a chemical company, has positioned >>itself as an agricultural company through control over seed the first link in >>the food chain. Monsanto now wants to control water, the very basis of life. >> In 1996, Monsanto bought the biotechnology assets of Agracetus, a >>subsidiary of W.R. GRACE, for $150 million and Calagene, a California based >>plant biotechnology company for $340 million. In 1997, Monsanto acquired >>Holden seeds, the Brazilian seed company Sementes Agrocerus and Asgrow. In >>1998, Monsanto purchased Cargill's seed operations for $1.4 billion. It >>bought Delta and Pine land for $1.82 billion and Dekalb for $2.3 billion. It >>bought Unilever's European wheat breeding business for $525 million. In India >>Monsanto has bought Mahyco, Maharashtra Hybrid Company, E.I.D. Parry and >>Rallis. Mr.Jack Kennedy of Monsanto has stated "We propose to penetrate the >>Indian Agricultural sector in a big way. MAHYCO is a good vehicle." According >>to Robert Farley of Monsanto "what you are seeing is not just a consolidation >>of seed companies, it is really a consolidation of the entire food chain. >>Since water is an central to food production as seed is, and without water >>life is not possible. Monsanto is now trying to establish its control over >>water. During 1999 Monsanto plans to launch a new water business, starting >>with India and Mexico since both these countries are facing water shortages. >> Monsanto is seeing a new business opportunity in water because of the >>emerging water crisis and the funding available to make this vital resource >>available to people. As it states in its strategy paper, "first we believe >>that discontinuities (either major policy changes or major trendline breaks >>in resource quality or quantity) are likely, particularly in the area of >>water and we will be well positioned via these business to profit even more >>significantly when these discontinuities occur. Second, we are exploring the >>potential of non-conventional financing (NGO's, World Bank, USDA etc.) that >>may lower our investment or provide local country business building >>resources." Thus, the crisis of pollution and depletion of water resources is >>viewed by Monsanto as a business opportunity. For Monsanto "Sustainable >>Development" means the conversion of an ecological crisis into a market of >>scarce resources. "The business logic of sustainable development is that >>population growth and economic development will apply increasing pressure on >>natural resource markets. These pressures and the world's desire to prevent >>the consequences of these pressures if unabated, will create vast economic >>opportunity when we look at the world through the lens of sustainability we >>are in a position to see current and foresee impending resource market trends >>and imbalances that create market needs. We have further focussed this lens >>on the resource market of water and land. These are the markets that are >>most relevant to us as a life sciences company committed to delivering "food, >>health and hope" to the world, and there are markets in which there are >>predictable sustainability challenges and therefore opportunities to create >>business value." Monsanto plans to earn revenues of $420 million and net >>income of $63 million by 2008 from its water business in India and Mexico. By >>the year 2010 about 2.5 billion people in the world are projected to lack >>access to safe drinking water. At least 30% of the population in China, >>India, Mexico and US is expected to face severe water stress. By the year >>2025 the supply of water in India will be 700 cubic kilometers per year while >>the demand is expected to rise to 1050 units. Control over this scarce and >>vital resource will of course be a source of guaranteed profits. As John >>Bastin of the European Bank of Reconstruction and Development has stated >>"Water is the last infrastructure frontier for Private investors." Monsanto >>estimates that providing safe water is a several billion dollar market. It is >>growing at 25 - 30% in rural communities and is estimated to be $300 million >>by the year 2000 in India and Mexico. This is the amount currently spent by >>NGO's for water development projects and local government water supply >>schemes and Monsanto hopes to tap these public finances for providing water >>to rural communities and convert water supply into market. The Indian >>Government spent over $ 1.2 billion between 1992-97 for various water >>projects whicle the World Bank spent $900 million. Monsanto would like to >>divert this public money from public supply of water to establishing >>Monsanto's water monopoly. Since in rural areas the poor cannot pay, in >>Monsanto's view "Capturing a piece of the value created for this segment will >>require the creation of a non-traditional mechanism targeted at building >>relationships with local government and NGO's as well as through innovative >>financing mechanisms, such as microcredit. Monsanto also plans to penetrate >>the Indian market for safe water by establishing a joint venture with Eureka >>Forbes / TATA, which controls 70% of the UV Technologies. To enter the water >>business Monsanto has acquired an equity stake in Water Health International >>(WHI) with an option to buy the rest of the business. Monsanto will also buy >>a Japanese company which has developed electrolysis technology. The joint >>venture with TATA / Eureka Forbes is supposed to provide market access, and >>fabricate, distribute, service water systems, Monsanto will leverage their >>brand equity in the Indian Market. The joint venture route has been chosen so >>that "Monsanto can achieve management control over local operations but not >>have legal consequences due to local issues." Another new business that >>Monsanto is starting in 1999 in Asia in aquaculture. The aquaculture business >>will build on the foundation of Monsanto's agricultural biotechnology and >>capabilities for fish feed and fish breeding. By 2008 Monsanto expects to >>earn revenues of $1.6 billion and net income of $266 million from its >>aquaculture business. While Monsanto's entry into aquaculture is through its >>Sustainable Development activity, industrial aquaculture has been established >>to be highly non sustainable. The Supreme Court of India had banned >>industrial shrimp farming because of it's catastrophic consequences. However, >>the government, under pressure of the aquaculture industry, is attempting to >>change the laws, to undo the Supreme Court order. At the same time, attempts >>are being made by the World Bank to privatise water resources and establish >>trade in water rights. These trends will suit Monsanto well in establishing >>its new Water Business and Aquaculture business. The World Bank has already >>offered to help. As the Monsanto strategy paper states "We are particularly >>enthusiastic about the potential of partnering with the International Finance >>Corporation (IFC) of the World Bank to joint venture projects in developing >>markets. The IFC is eager to work with Monsanto to commercialise >>sustainability opportunities and would bring both investment capital and on >>the ground capabilities to our efforts." Monsanto's Water and Aquaculture >>Business, like it's seed business, is aimed at controlling vital resources >>necessary for survival, converting them into a market and using public >>finances to underwrite the investments. A more efficient conversion of public >>goods into private profit would be difficult to find. Water is however too >>basic for life and survival. The right to water is the right to life. The >>privatisation and commodification of water is a threat to the right to life. >>India has had major water movements to conserve and share water. The Pani >>Panchayat and the water conservation movement in Maharashtra and Tarun Bharat >>Sangh in Alwar, have regenerated and equitably shared water as a commons. >>This is the only way that everyone will have the right to water and nobody >>will have the right to abuse and overuse water. Water is a commons and must >>be managed as a commons. It cannot be controlled and sold by a Life Sciences >>Corporation that peddles in Death. >> >>FAIR USE NOTICE. This document contains copyrighted material whose use has >>not been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. Corporate Watch is >>making this article available in our efforts to advance understanding of >>ecological sustainability, human rights, economic democracy and social >>justice issues. We believe that this constitutes a 'fair use' of the >>copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. >>If you wish to use this copyrighted material for purposes of your own that go >>beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. >> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 15 13:15:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16563 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 13:15:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04443; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04351 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:53:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-29.Portal-04.ap.net [207.44.186.254]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15382 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 09:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37B6EF74.4D6D50C5@ap.net> Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 09:48:52 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: FWD FROM OG: MONSANTO: from Seed to water References: <00d201bee72d$375f7560$21c888cf@bdl> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------DA3208B420A972938B1ADCD9" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1531 --------------DA3208B420A972938B1ADCD9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "B. David Lively" wrote: > Allan, > > This minitory message of Monsanto's methods to madness, makes me furious. > > Seems that Anti-Trust should be putting the brakes to this miscreant > manufacturer of poisons before they control government itself. > > imo > > Dave > > B. David Lively > 3H Farm > Bennington, Vermont > > bdl@sover.net > Visit **Dairy Action** at http://www.digital.net/milk > Join the Dairy Action Discussion List: > http://www.digital.net/milk/joindadl.htm > Nancy H. Lively "May you live all the days of your life" > Stay wrathful brother. And fire up those brain cells. Consider what putting pressure on a government or legislator means. Threaten them with no money? Threaten them with defeat at the polls? Or just "threaten"? Actions speak! Management at Monsanto is profit blind! The individual is worthless. Anti-Trust is DEAD. The corpses that are legal corporate people rule and they have come out of the closet and don't even care to "appear" like the good guys.. Being a serf in America may be the best serfdom in the world, but its not a position that I like either. I encourage you to write a letter to some gov't legislator or bureau-head every day. After a month of no response, write every newspaper you can. Put it all over the web. Expose the names of stockholders in your town that let this happen in the name of their retirement account. Remind them one at a time that we ARE a society. A few hundred of us doing this every day for a few months, will be a lot more than a blip on the media screen. Happy trails David Isaacs/whirlderv@ap.net --------------DA3208B420A972938B1ADCD9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

"B. David Lively" wrote:

Allan,

This minitory message of Monsanto's methods to madness, makes me furious.

Seems that Anti-Trust should be putting the brakes to this miscreant
manufacturer of poisons before they control government itself.

imo

Dave

B. David Lively
3H Farm
Bennington, Vermont

bdl@sover.net
 Visit **Dairy Action**  at  http://www.digital.net/milk
Join the Dairy Action Discussion List:
http://www.digital.net/milk/joindadl.htm
Nancy H. Lively   "May you live all the days of your life"
 

Stay wrathful brother.  And fire up those brain cells.  Consider what putting pressure on a government or legislator means.  Threaten them with no money?  Threaten them with defeat at the polls?  Or just "threaten"?  Actions speak!  Management at Monsanto is profit blind! The individual is worthless.   Anti-Trust is DEAD. The corpses that are legal corporate people rule and they have come out of the closet and don't even care to "appear" like the good guys..  Being a serf in America may be the best serfdom in the world, but its not a position that I like either.  I encourage you to write a letter to some gov't legislator or bureau-head every day.  After a month of no response, write every newspaper you can.  Put it all over the web. Expose the names of stockholders in your town that let this happen in the name of their retirement account.  Remind them one at a time that we ARE a society. A few hundred of us doing this every day for a few months, will be a lot more than a blip on the media screen.

Happy trails
David Isaacs/whirlderv@ap.net --------------DA3208B420A972938B1ADCD9-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 15 14:43:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA20961 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 14:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08351; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 14:25:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08217 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 14:22:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.74] (max5-8.stc.net [208.210.133.8]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA05006 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 14:25:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 14:29:54 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Radionica and Field Broadcaster In Winter Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1532 Dear List, >From time to time some interesting questions and responses turn up via my correspondence. I'd like to share one of these. --Hugh Lovel Ayumi Sasaki writes from Japan: >Yesterday, I mailed you a letter and photos that we took at your place. >Enclosed, you will find a hair of my colleague who is having a terrible >pain in his lower back. Please ask Lorraine to help him with her energy >>medicine treatment. Please tell her in advance that we thank her for the >>trouble. Dear Ayumi, It was good to hear from you. Lorraine has several modalities she works with. For pains in the back (skeleton, spine) she has a very effective instrument called a peggety board. I think that is the one she put me on yesterday when we got back from market. We had the truck loaded down heavily when we arrived at the market, and we had to unload and set up. I was pulling down a large box of squash from atop an equally large box of cucumbers and my knee slipped and went over the edge of the pickup truck's tailgate. The squash was heavy and I reacted instantly and automatically to save it from crashing down by easing its fall with my arm muscles while trying to get my knee back in place to balance the effort of my arms. I saved the squash, and in the process I jammed my knee into the edge of the tailgate--right on the kneecap of the right knee, the one I always injured since childhood. I gasped in pain and was doing a little hop on my left leg--trying not to be too obvious about it--while massaging my right kneecap. We had a lot of work to do and a tractor payment, truck insurance, power bill, long distance telephone and other big bills to pay. My intent was to sell, sell, sell, and not even slow down. So presently I was again bustling about, setting up tables, baskets, displays, making signs, hanging bunches of herbs and garlic braids all over our booth, and-- "Yes, Ma'm. How can I help you? Those are green soybeans. Have you ever cooked them before? You boil or steam them for 8 or 10 minutes, then spread them out, salt them down with unrefined sea salt and eat them as hors d'ouvres. Hold them up to your mouth like this, and they just squirt out of the pods. It's the best bean in the world. Or, you can squirt them all out in a pan with cut corn, chopped red bell pepper, butter and tamari sauce and make succotash. Vedry delicious." and-- "Yes, ma'm, that big garlic braid is a chef's braid. It's $75, and actually if it was braided up as smaller braids it would be at least $80 if not more. Feel how firm the garlic bulbs are--full of juice. It's the highest quality we've ever seen, and we grow the best. Easily keeps a year just hanging on the wall." and-- "Yes, Ma'm. I CAN change a fifty. No problem." All the while making more signs, giving cooking instructions, replenishing displays, slicing samples of fresh cucumber and peeling garlic, running it through the garlic press into a bowl of olive oil and letting people take sample bits of fresh baked sourdough bread dipped in garlic and olive oil. Such a nice, fragrant aroma this produced, getting people's saliva flowing so they'd pay almost anything with little concern. Marketing is influenced enormously by this enthusiastic, generous sense of exceptional well-being and savior faire. When shoppers encounter it their blood and other juices increase flow and the buying gets almost like sharks in a feeding frenzy. We were two and three deep at our booth for nearly four hours, and we had almost nothing left at the end. It was our best market day ever, and we pulled in enough revenue to pay all the bills mentioned above except the long distance telephone, which will have to wait till next week. How exhilarating it is to win at farming, it's such a tough endeavor! So we broke down, loaded our empty coolers back on the truck and took off to Atlanta's south side for the Hamper House to get a case of roll bags and 16 tomato boxes for next week. When I climbed out of the truck at the Hamper House is when I remembered I'd injured my bad knee. It just about went backwards on me, and the brief stab of pain let me know I'd be limping a while. Shucks! I guess I've always led this sort of "bull-at-the-gates" life--never a dull moment. Finally we got home and unloaded the truck after the natural food store, office supply, post office, dropping our few left-overs off at Adama's, getting a hamburger at a really good '50s style grill where they have an old-fashioned, natural way of making fresh, juicy burgers, and then the couple hour drive to the mountains. I was really limping upon arrival, though I cheered the crew with the message of our best market day ever, yippee! I tanked up on Sosei Water at the kitchen sink--it was a REALLY hot, dry afternoon--and ran my e-mail messages, mail, phone messages, returning a few calls before making a fat, tomato sandwich with plenty of mayonaise and thick slabs of ripe tomato. Then I lay down and read the newspaper, hopping up a couple more times for colder Sosei Water that I put in the refrigerator upon getting home. Somewhere along in there Lorraine set up a treatment on my knee, and I could tell a difference. I dined on a broiled rib steak and dandelion salad with olive oil and ume plum vinegar dressing. About 10 or so I fell asleep reading a Louis L'Amour paperback. It was a long day, starting at 3:30 a.m. But when I got up today at 8 I could tell a real difference with my knee. Back to not limping and standing on my right leg with my left food off the ground whenever I chose, thanks God. Treatment at a distance like this really works. Our auto mechanic has sciatica, which is brought on by loss of collagen in the discs of the spinal column of the lower back causing pinching of the nerves and immobilizing, excruciating pain. When he's down with sciatica he's apt to call Lorraine for one of her "voodoo" treatments. Really he needs comprehensive treatment and a few changes of diet, etc. to cure it, and he doesn't understand that yet. She's just giving him temporary relief with a few hours of treatment. It's not like waving a magic wand. Illnesses are educational, developmental things. Few people learn all an illness has to teach and change their lives all in a flash. Still, it IS good to have even temporary relief. I'm afraid that's all Lorraine can afford to do for your friend at present, but I'm sure she'll do at least that. > >Today, I translated your latest e-mail to Mr. Fukai. Actually, he is at >Kasai >cleaning plant, so I faxed the translation to him. He should >respond to you >soon. > >What can your etheric field broadcaster do to a farm in >winter where lots of snow falls? I'm sure it can reduce the precipitation >>whether it is rain or snow. Usually where lots of snow falls in winter this is a very good thing. Snow contains roughly 50 pounds of nitrogen for every foot of snow, and this kind of nitrogen sinks in and is absorbed as the snow melts. As for reducing precipitation, this of course can be done and a field broadcaster can be used for this, as it can be used lop-sidedly to upset the kind of healthy conditions that produce normal rain. But usually this is not such a good idea. There are exceptions--such as (briefly) when one cuts hay or has a huge outdoors gathering, but in general one does not want to reduce precipitation except when it rains or snows enough to cause floods or avalanches. For example precipitation is what cleans up and revitalizes the atmosphere, and what would we do without it? Cough, wheeze, choke and lie down very flat, I'm sure. Even more importantly it is the wintertime crystalizing activity that charges up the soil with the kind of upward-driving, growing force that makes superior bamboo shoots, sweet hay, tall corn, abundant pumpkin and mellon harvests, fat cabbages and the best apples. (Really good, cooling rain is similar to wintertime crystalization phenomena in terms of condensation of life forces and the ability to promote upward growth. This sort of thing, of course, is much lacking in the Sahara.) There was a lady in the south pacific who had an apple tree, but no winter weather. The apple tree never bloomed, never made any fruit. It just grew slowly putting out leaves. So finally she figured out how to get apples. During a period when growth was slowest she poured washtubs of ice out on the soil all around the tree. Day after day she mulched the tree with piles of ice. After a couple weeks of this, all the leaves had fallen and the apple tree was dormant. It was all drawn into itself as in sleep. When the ice mulching stopped it awoke freshened, vigorous and restored. It's buds swelled, burst forth in enthusiastic new growth and it was covered with blossoms and later big, fat apples. So really wintertime and lots of snow tends to be a good thing. Sometimes it may seem to be harsh, but we need such things to renew the earth's vitality. >How else can it be used in winter? I need this information for a farmer >in >Hokkaido Island. In winter the field broadcaster predominantly builds up the digestive, nutritive forces in the soil, which are related to lime, the inner planets of Moon, Mercury and Venus, the biodynamic horn manure (BD 500) and the wintertime role of clay (it absorbs) in the soil. This is the season when the chemical activity and the vitality of the soil are strongest. This makes such things as fall applications of lime wonderfully effective the next spring. This is why the usual advice is to apply lime in the fall for it to be effective the next spring. It is commonly perceived that lime applied in the spring doesn't become fully effective the first year and one must then wait until the following year. The field broadcaster greatly boosts these inner, earthly activities in winter. In summer the broadcaster predominantly stimulates the above ground activities, which by way of contrast are outward and cosmic in nature. These fruiting and ripening forces belong to the atmosphere and are related to silica, the outer planets of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, the biodynamic horn silica (BD 501) and the summertime role of clay (it conducts) in the soil. This is the season when warmth and light are strongest, and they carry up into the foliage and fruits the nutrients such as lime, potash, phosphorus, etc. that were embued with life during the winter in the soil. That is to say the field broadcaster greatly boosts the upward flow of chemistry and life into foliage and fruit in summer. > >Will write again. > >Yours, >Ayumi > > I hope this helps, Ayumi. To truly understand anything requires putting it in context and perspective so one has the larger picture in mind. Otherwise inappropriate actions may arise due to unwitting emphasis on the wrong things. The best to you, Hugh ***** Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 15 16:46:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA03958 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA13322; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:29:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA13214 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:25:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 153.37.28.34 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 13:28:25 -0700 Message-ID: <002601bee75d$5f0e4ca0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: Biodynamic Reading Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 13:33:00 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1533 Dear Friends of Biodynamic Agriculture, I've been interested in the various comments on bd literature lately. It needs to be said: There are many fine books and booklets to choose from on biodynamics in general as well as on more specific topics. Some of these are available in English, some in French and Spanish and many in German (some other languages are available too). Below, I've first listed a potential reading list for beginners of various kinds, then further down I've listed just a couple of my favorite (english) books that I have used over the last 25 years myself as well as with apprentices and mature practitioners in many countries and in varying situations. I've added some personal commentary to them as a further aide in choosing where to start. Although I do not agree with everything that is said in all these books, I do believe they provide a healthy spectrum of bd ideas, experiences and background for the would-be or even practicing bd farmer or gardener. In the future, I may have time to add further commentaries to this list. I have not listed all the bd books (by far not), nor is the list complete even as a beginners intro to bd literature. Its just a start, but I felt compelled to add a few titles to those already briefly mentioned on the BDNOW list. Happy reading! Andrew If you are only just getting interested in biodynamics and want to see if it is for you, read: 1. Biodynamic Agriculture, Schilthuis 2. Culture and Horticulture, Storl 3. Biodynamics, New Zealand Biodynamic Association If you are already a little familiar with bd, but want more (after reading the above 3), read: 1. Laws of Life in Agriculture, Remer 2. Agricutlure of Tomorrow, Kolisko 3. Soil Fertility, Pfeiffer If you have truly read the above and are ready to get really serious about practicing bd, then I suggest: 1. Theosophy, Steiner 2. Nature Spirits, Steiner 3. Esoteric Science, An Outline, Steiner 4. The Agriculture Course, Steiner Once you've studied these, then dont forget: 1. A Biodynamic Book of Moons, Klocek 2. Biodynamic Introductory Lectures, Vol 1 & 2, Podolinsky 3. The Biodynamic Farm, Koepf 4. Biodynamic Greenhouse Management, Grotzke 5. Bringing a Garden to Life, Williams 6. Gaiasophy, Zoeteman 7. Gardening for Health and Nutrition, Philbrick Agriculture of Tomorrow, Eugen & Lili Kolisko Probably the single most important book about biodynamics besides the agricuture course itself. Actually written by Lili Kolisko after Eugen's death, this book is the result of several decades of work by both of the Kolisko's. Eugen was a medical doctor and Lili a biologist. Lili was considered by many one of Steiner's closest students and was certainly an amazingly hard working scientist. She attended the agricutlure course, was allowed to stenograph all the lectures and then established the primarily to work on his agricultural indications and was funded in large part initially by Rudolf Steiner himself. The book is an easy read actually, despite the charts and many photographs of initially strange looking substances, shapes and colors. Most significant is that it outlines the scientific ideas behind biodynamics as a practice. Lots of practical advice, ideas and insights. Truly amazing. Out of print, I think, but this one is worth buying at a used book store or trading for if you can get it. Culture and Horticulture : A Philosophy of Gardening by Wolf D. Storl is still probably the finest, single volume introduction to biodynamics written in English. Wolf gives a concise intro to the history, methods and thinking behind biodynamics without loosing the spiritual character of this unique system of working with nature. The copy Wolf gave me in January of 1980 (just after it was published) still sits within reach of my desk and contiunes to be an inspiration. Although 417 pages of text, it reads amazingly easy. Lots of diagrams and pictures. But dont be fooled into thinking its a fairytale - because it is packed with usable knowledge! Joel Morrow, who used to edit the BD Journal in here in America for years and years, also recommended this as a must first read. (Amazon carries this at $9.95 + $0.85 special surcharge) Biodynamic Agricutlure by Willy Schilthuis is a 1994 monograph written by one of the Netherlands finest biodynamic practitioners. She was President of the Dutch Biodynamic Association for 25 years had has a lifetime of experience. Amazingly modest in person, Willy is extraordinaryily kind and thoughtful. Barely a hundred pages long, this little booklet gives a very modern introduction to the concepts and practices of BD. A great micro-introduction. Can be read in one sitting on a Sunday afternoon between lunch and milking time. (Amazon, $9.95) Bio-Dynamic Farming Practice by Sattler & Wistinghausen Great textbook-style intro. Wistinghausen is more the academic/scientist, while Fritz (Sattler) has a lifetime of professional hands-on experience. Herbert Koepf once told me he considered Sattler one of the finest bd farmers ever. The book, published by the British BDAA is by no means a spiritual text, nor a how-to really, but does cover lots of the basic practices and concepts, while illustrations and photos make the read comfortable. Stats and data also add impressive quality to the book and makes up for what is missing in terms of spiritual qualities. PS I have not listed either Hugh Lovel's book because (although I own a copy, I have not had the time to give it more than a cursory review) nor Secrets of the Soil for a variety of reasons foremost of which has to do with my sense of needing to read it again before commenting. More later! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 15 17:57:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA04536 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:57:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16098; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:40:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mda.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15939 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:37:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.161.161]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990815214402.MJWO2529197.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:44:02 +1200 Message-ID: <37B733D6.145F@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:42:44 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: sprayer contamination Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1534 The strength of the BD preps and the damage done to them by chemical contamination has long been a speculation to the negative. At a recent seminar regarding the Passion Vine Hopper pepper we successfully used last season, the spray copntractor who sprayed some 20 orchards, told the story of one he did which was a chemical orchard. The PVH pepper was sprayed through the chemical sprayer, with no cleaning. It was determined by all concerned that the pepper worked as well as it had done on the organic orchards. My experience with up to D30 potencies of the preps over the last 20 years has shown me they are very resilient against all, the noraml homoeopathic fears, electricity, heat, sunlight, strong smells, taken with food etc. I have used them in a cleaned out solo sprayer and have every reason to believe they are effective through it. Our delicate preparatins may not be as delicate as we suspect. cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 15 20:10:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA05700 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:09:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA20398; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 19:52:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA20342 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 19:50:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.24] (pm3mbr4-166-161.intrepid.net [209.190.166.161]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA27345 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 19:53:48 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 07:58:43 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: re: MONSANTO: from Seed to water Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1535 These thoughts by insightful Alison Hobbs of NewFarms seem pertinent here: reprinted from Terra Firma Vol 24 Number 3, Spring 1999 (A Seasonal Newsletter of NewFarms 505-425-8431) Make History Consciously What in our culture really inspires or reminds us to be citizens? We have plenty of very dazzling, pervasive images that define us as consumers of material goods. But in the realm of power, of making choices that control our destinies, we have very few models or sources of information to help us look at ourselves as citizens in a democracy. Have you ever heard about the democratically controlled cooperative in Mondragon, Spain that has demonstrated incredible success in creating an extensive regional economy? Have you ever heard of how most of the food grown in Denmark is grown organically and consumed by the Danes themselves rather than exported, or of the success of the Cooperative Supported Agriculture or Cooperative Housing movement in the U.S.A.? These significant events all have to do with people constructing local, selfreliant communities. They have characterized a part of the twentieth century and will help shape the next. Why do we know more about the details of the president's extramarital affairs, the high drama of street crime, or the lifestyles focused on clothes, cars, and making more money? The first stories inspire me to function as citizens who can envision and enact on alternatives that directly impact our lives, and the latter ones, to being passive, entertained, scared, and materialistic. We can no longer rely on conventional media to help us understand what is truly forming our world or to tell us the stories that empower our communities. journalism, which we once knew as a defender of democracy, is now controlled by the massive public relations industry. BursonMarsteller, one of the largest public industry firms profiting 200 million dollars a year out of 63 offices in 32 countries, effects you in some way every day, and yet you have probably never heard of it. It is their mission to shape the media to influence the right combination of public attitudes, public perceptions, and policies to make more sales for their corporate clients. Who are their clients? BursonMarsteller serve many of the 51 global corporations that make up 100 of the largest companies in the world. (General Motors is bigger than Denmark, Ford is bigger than South Africa, and Walmart is now bigger than 161 separate countries.) The most discomforting thing about this relationship between this public relations industry, the media, and the global corporations is that forces so powerful can be kept so invisible. If we are to understand the big picture we must recognize how these kinds of relationships succeed in preserving the interests of the parties involved. It serves the corporate sector's interests to direct our attention away from the growing cases of corporate crime and towards the personal indiscretions of one man and one woman. Imagine if the media spent as much time on the fact that agribusiness and uncontrolled industry has been the cause of damaging the food supply, our air, and our water; or on how these rapidly growing global corporations have contributed to the increasing gap between the rich and the poor, and have not only reduced the number of jobs available, but have made the ones that remain less distinguished. We don't need the media to inform us of how a small town is effected by corporate moves to third world countries with cheaper labor and less taxes, or the power they can wield over towns they either suggest arriving to or threaten to leave from. So many of us have felt the impact of this in one way or another, but did you know that these corporations receive a tax right for the expenses they incur in leaving our towns, and that when they go overseas they get a tax credit when they pay foreign taxes? What makes history and what makes the news are two different things. There are many stories that make our history and yet remain untold. This is only one of many, however, I believe its conclusion is extremely important. This network of large corporations that control most of the wealth of the country and make many of the fundamental decisions that shape our society, enjoy the freedoms and the protections of private citizens. When we allow such powerful entities to make decisions privately we turn our sovereignty over to these private entities that don't have a constitution or a bills of rights. They are doing the governing, not us, the sovereign people through our government. How can we make the right decisions in our own communities if we don't see the forces that truly control us? Media has become a dirty word because of who has defined it. We need it to be informed. It is the radio stations like Democracy Now (KUNM 89.9 FM, 4:00 M-F) and magazines likeThe Nation, who still hire true investigative reporters who ask these questions and help us to understand the real big picture. It is our local sources like "Over the Back Fence" and " The Hermits Peak Gazette" who give us a place to debate and discuss as citizens.They make heroes not of the stores who bring the cheapest, most convenient products, but of the individuals who have invested in our community; in the health of our children, our elderly, our ecosystem. By telling their stories, they applaud all the individuals, businesses, and organizations taking part in the noble work of democratizing and localizing our economies. These media sources define us as people intelligent enough to live in a democracy, as actors who take responsibility for the corporate entities we have been a part of creating. They encourage us to question, to educate ourselves further, and to aspire for a better world for the next generation. They do this by asking the right questions: By what authority is the corporation wielding 5 more power than we are? What is the proper relationship in a democracy between the sovereign people and the corporate entities they create? Are we so helpless that if we didn't have these giant corporations we would be incapable of creating jobs, of figuring out bow to grow our food, of arranging our affairs? Is poverty si a lack of resources, or is it how quickly those resources actually leave the community How can communities become more self-reliant? Have we chosen to value cheap goods over the integrity of our towns? The questions that remain unasked are seeds waiting to be germinated. Fortunately there are emerging small scale success stories all over the country - seeds that have been sprouted by the simple questions like "Where is money moving out of the community?" or "Who owns the means of production?" The answers have resulted in the creations of community credit unions, land trusts, small scale cooperatives, local banking, and Community Supported Agriculture. The local production of food has reduced the cost of expensive shipping, labeling, and packaging, saving money for the consumer and giving a better return for the farmer. In Las Vegas, NewFarms is linking 22 local growers with 35 local families and 3 institutions by offering organic and local produce, baked goods, eggs, and beef. There are many locally owned stores and community initiatives like "Communities that Care" and "Las Vegas First" that need our support. Let's start with the questions, and then nurture the answers. We have a choice: to be a passive consumer or an active citizen. The rapid rise of corporate power is one of the most significant forces shaping the twenty-first century. We make history by not paying attention to thisfact and what it implies, and by the opportunities we don't take. Help to create a whole new framework for economic and community development. Make history consciously. Alison Hobbs Sources: John Cavanagh, "Global Economic Apartheid" Takoma Park, Maryland, Sept. 19,1996;Richard Grossman, "Challenging Corporate Power" Provincetown, Mass., Aug. 23,199; John Stauber, "Lies, Damn Lies and Public Relations" Madison, Wisconsin, Feb.8,1999. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 15 20:36:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA05974 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA21321; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:20:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA21245 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-044.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.144]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16732 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:33:52 +1200 Message-ID: <006d01bee77d$731c10e0$90f631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: Spreading 500 over large areas Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:22:38 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1536 Decontamination is not a problem...that is the beauty of having your own tank constructed for your farm and just slung under the helicopter when it comes...plastic tanks are cheap...the pilot has a strop and it is only used for preps....easy! Cheers Gareth -----Original Message----- From: Guillermo Romero To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, 15 August 1999 07:23 PM Subject: Re: Spreading 500 over large areas >Hi Gareth: > >Do you know how did they get the "decontamination" done. > >I remember from a discussion here long ago and in reference to a back pack sprayer that such decontamination is not posible to do completly. In that ocassion someone mentioned that it would be advisable to keep BD equipment untouched by chemicals and pesticides. For an emergency it was also said that cleansing it with sodium bicarbonate would help some. > >I am just curious. > > >Regards > >> >>However, it wasn't all plain sailing, the biggest drawback was that the >chopper would be spraying thistles, gorse etc in the early morning which would >leave only a few hours to decontaminate and re-calibrate his spray equipment >before arriving at our spray site and still face the possibility that the >weather had deteriorated too much for spraying and have to go through the same >process the next day. > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 15 21:32:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06508 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA23871; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:13:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA23753 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:12:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 153.34.184.210 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:14:40 -0700 Message-ID: <001101bee785$5aff4ce0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: sprayer contamination Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:19:07 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1537 Glen's post raises interesting questions. I agree that we are easily spooked or at least some folks are. I would agree that once made properly our sprays and preps are very resiliant. However, other questions linger, especially about chemical contamination: For one, are we only talking about physical contamination due to chemicals? What about etheric? Two, there are degrees of physical contamination, which may or may not affect the immediate knock-down effect, but may inhibit the longer-term homeopathic sprays are meant to send. Knock-down does not equal longer-term deterrence or resistance and deterrence towards resistance is what we are after. Chemicals should not as a rule be used in our bd sprayers. Its common sense. Finally, is a grandiose and sweaping generalization. For one, Lili Kolisko's work showed that electricity certainly affects the etheric forces. How could it not affect the peppers? Besides, what we ought to be talking about too is the mental and emotional contamination of our preps, sprays, etc. not just the physical - chemical contamination possibilities....in fact we should be looking at all the physical, etheric, astral, and ego level hygiene issues. Its alot like Steiner indicated in the ag course, when asked about stirring with machines or using electricity to preserve foods. Just thought I'd chime in, Cheers, Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 15 23:21:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07564 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA28315; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28255 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 22:59:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts3-8.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.203.72]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA09235 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <005501bee793$d38b8ee0$68cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <002601bee75d$5f0e4ca0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Subject: Re: Biodynamic Reading Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:02:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1538 Andrew Agdoc: We await your comments on *Secrets of the Soil* and *A Biodynamic Farm*. Meanwhile I personally, and Allan, have been recommending both books to the BD newbie. They remain the most friendly introductions to Biodynamics and both by now have stood the test of time. The new explorer of Biodynamics is likely not to notice that both are maverick texts compared to the rather orthodox titles you prefer, information dense as they are... Lovel and Tompkins tell the story of their experience of Biodyamics as well as imparting facts. I, and perhaps others, remember and live by stories much more than by raw information. Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: agdoc To: Sent: Sunday, August 15, 1999 1:33 PM Subject: Re: Biodynamic Reading > > Dear Friends of Biodynamic Agriculture, > > I've been interested in the various comments on bd literature lately. It > needs to be said: There are many fine books and booklets to choose from on > biodynamics in general as well as on more specific topics. Some of these are > available in English, some in French and Spanish and many in German (some > other languages are available too). > > Below, I've first listed a potential reading list for beginners of various > kinds, then further down I've listed just a couple of my favorite (english) > books that I have used over the last 25 years myself as well as with > apprentices and mature practitioners in many countries and in varying > situations. I've added some personal commentary to them as a further aide > in choosing where to start. Although I do not agree with everything that is > said in all these books, I do believe they provide a healthy spectrum of bd > ideas, experiences and background for the would-be or even practicing bd > farmer or gardener. In the future, I may have time to add further > commentaries to this list. > > I have not listed all the bd books (by far not), nor is the list complete > even as a beginners intro to bd literature. Its just a start, but I felt > compelled to add a few titles to those already briefly mentioned on the > BDNOW list. > > Happy reading! > Andrew > > > If you are only just getting interested in biodynamics and want to see if it > is for you, read: > 1. Biodynamic Agriculture, Schilthuis > 2. Culture and Horticulture, Storl > 3. Biodynamics, New Zealand Biodynamic Association > > If you are already a little familiar with bd, but want more (after reading > the above 3), read: > 1. Laws of Life in Agriculture, Remer > 2. Agricutlure of Tomorrow, Kolisko > 3. Soil Fertility, Pfeiffer > > If you have truly read the above and are ready to get really serious about > practicing bd, then I suggest: > 1. Theosophy, Steiner > 2. Nature Spirits, Steiner > 3. Esoteric Science, An Outline, Steiner > 4. The Agriculture Course, Steiner > > Once you've studied these, then dont forget: > 1. A Biodynamic Book of Moons, Klocek > 2. Biodynamic Introductory Lectures, Vol 1 & 2, Podolinsky > 3. The Biodynamic Farm, Koepf > 4. Biodynamic Greenhouse Management, Grotzke > 5. Bringing a Garden to Life, Williams > 6. Gaiasophy, Zoeteman > 7. Gardening for Health and Nutrition, Philbrick > > > Agriculture of Tomorrow, Eugen & Lili Kolisko > > Probably the single most important book about biodynamics besides the > agricuture course itself. Actually written by Lili Kolisko after Eugen's > death, this book is the result of several decades of work by both of the > Kolisko's. Eugen was a medical doctor and Lili a biologist. Lili was > considered by many one of Steiner's closest students and was certainly an > amazingly hard working scientist. She attended the agricutlure course, was > allowed to stenograph all the lectures and then established the Institute of the Goetheanum in Stuttgart> primarily to work on his > agricultural indications and was funded in large part initially by Rudolf > Steiner himself. The book is an easy read actually, despite the charts and > many photographs of initially strange looking substances, shapes and colors. > Most significant is that it outlines the scientific ideas behind biodynamics > as a practice. Lots of practical advice, ideas and insights. Truly amazing. > Out of print, I think, but this one is worth buying at a used book store or > trading for if you can get it. > > > Culture and Horticulture : A Philosophy of Gardening by Wolf D. Storl > > is still probably the finest, single volume introduction to biodynamics > written in English. Wolf gives a concise intro to the history, methods and > thinking behind biodynamics without loosing the spiritual character of this > unique system of working with nature. The copy Wolf gave me in January of > 1980 (just after it was published) still sits within reach of my desk and > contiunes to be an inspiration. Although 417 pages of text, it reads > amazingly easy. Lots of diagrams and pictures. But dont be fooled into > thinking its a fairytale - because it is packed with usable knowledge! Joel > Morrow, who used to edit the BD Journal in here in America for years and > years, also recommended this as a must first read. (Amazon carries this at > $9.95 + $0.85 special surcharge) > > Biodynamic Agricutlure by Willy Schilthuis > > is a 1994 monograph written by one of the Netherlands finest biodynamic > practitioners. She was President of the Dutch Biodynamic Association for 25 > years had has a lifetime of experience. Amazingly modest in person, Willy is > extraordinaryily kind and thoughtful. Barely a hundred pages long, this > little booklet gives a very modern introduction to the concepts and > practices of BD. A great micro-introduction. Can be read in one sitting on a > Sunday afternoon between lunch and milking time. (Amazon, $9.95) > > Bio-Dynamic Farming Practice by Sattler & Wistinghausen > > Great textbook-style intro. Wistinghausen is more the academic/scientist, > while Fritz (Sattler) has a lifetime of professional hands-on experience. > Herbert Koepf once told me he considered Sattler one of the finest bd > farmers ever. The book, published by the British BDAA is by no means a > spiritual text, nor a how-to really, but does cover lots of the basic > practices and concepts, while illustrations and photos make the read > comfortable. Stats and data also add impressive quality to the book > and makes up for what is missing in terms of spiritual qualities. > > > PS > > I have not listed either Hugh Lovel's book because (although I own a copy, I > have not had the time to give it more than a cursory review) nor Secrets of > the Soil for a variety of reasons foremost of which has to do with my sense > of needing to read it again before commenting. More later! > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 15 23:57:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08300 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:57:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA29703; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:39:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA29637 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.74] (max11-11.stc.net [208.210.136.11]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA02499 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:39:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002601bee564$538ea460$65f631ca@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:45:52 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Changing BD (was Spreading 500 over large areas) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1539 Gareth Bodle wrote: >Hi all. This is the draft of an article that was published in "Harvests" >here >in NZ this week. Carl (the writer) and Alastair are members of the >Northland >BD group. The published article is hardly different and has >diagrams. > >Cheers, >Gareth, >Whangarei NZ > > >As the name suggests Bio Dynamics is continually changing and evolving as >the >movement grows and spreads its influence around the world. Different >farming >techniques require different adaptations and/or interpretations >of Steiner's >Lectures. New Zealand farmers have a reputation for >improvisation and >biodynamic farming has developed considerably to cope >with the difficulties >associated with larger scale farming. Steiner >encouraged this innovative and >free thinking, saying each farming system >is different and that farmers need to >feel their own way and do what is >best for their own situation. > >Spreading 500 by hand has evolved from spreading by hand with a >hearth-brush, through pumping the 500 through a spraying system on a >tractor or other vehicle, to spraying by air, either by fixed wing or >helicopter. > >(snip) Dear Gareth and List Readers, As the quote from the above article states, biodynamics is continually changing and evolving. Never has it changed or evolved so much as it's doing at present, however. As wittness to this, a few developments here in America illustrate this especially well. Specifically I'm referring to horn clay and field broadcasting with a stationary, self-driven etheric broadcaster (aka cosmic pipe). For at least the past fifteen years these two developments have been gestating, but in '99, perhaps in celebration of biodynamics' 75th anniversary, both of these things have come of age. I know because I'm using both. I've posted to this list on these topics in the past, so I'll be brief. The HORN CLAY, which has come out of Greg Willis's work, ties together--integrates into a coordinated, organic whole--the opposite polarities of lime and silica, 500 and 501. In looking for what the horn clay relates to in the solar picture, it relates to the boundary phenomenon recently discovered by astronomers at the edge of the solar vortex where it interfaces with the wider universe--the heliopause. For the farm organism horn clay establishes a skin or membrane surrounding the farm and holding its vital forces in, much as your own skin does for your body or as the heliopause does for the solar system. In terms of 500 (earth) and 501 (widest expanses of the cosmos) horn clay is the semi-permeable membrane that lets the compatible energies into the farm and keeps the incompatible stuff (like pollution and radioactivity) out. The way horn clay stimulates the outward growth and fruiting of plants in summer and the inward storing up of nutrient factors in winter is barely short of incredible. With the FIELD BROADCASTER the BD preps never got out there before so thoroughly, so reliably, so economically or so effortlessly in all kinds of weather without machinery or negative impact on the land. And outside of the Pfeiffer compost and field spray work and Glen Atkinson's work with potentized BD preps I know of no case where the Koliskos' research (AGRICULTURE OF TOMORROW) is seriously being applied in biodynamics today. And with all respect to Pfeiffer (who is long deceased) and to Glen Atkinson (who fortunately is still with us) I know of no method at use today that can fine-tune and balance the application of potentized preps to meet the needs of individual parcels of land--and apply these potencies continuously day and night to areas as large as 500 acres in size at so low an expenditure of cash and effort. The results so far in 1999 on my farm and on several others are impressive evidence of the evolutionary nature of these two developments when combined. One further thing that HASN'T received much press before. For a few years now, using the BD preps Lorraine Cahill has been having uniform success in her radionic treatment at a distance to create healthy atmospheric conditions conducive to thundershower activity. I should toot this woman's horn a little for two reasons. One: As my colleague and assistant she lives and works here at UAI, and I taught her biodynamics as well as how the ethers interact between the soil and atmosphere to make rain occur. She's been a good pupil. Concurrently she has studied energy medicine and treatment at a distance (aka radionics) with Dr. Linda Lancaster of Santa Fe, New Mexico in accordinance with a curriculum of Keyes College in England. It took her several years to develop skill and certainty with this work, but I must say she has gotten quite good in several areas. It is she who developed the use of potentized preps in field broadcasting, and if field broadcasting comes into use world wide I do not doubt she will have a LOT of teaching to do so that the skill to make appropriate reagent packages for field broadcasters becomes common knowledge. Two: She's not in much of a position to toot her own horn, and even if she was that's often perceived as a rather gauche thing to do. Essentially her method involves the use of a Malcolm Rae Extended Range Potentizer with Interrupter. The Malcolm Rae potentizer makes use of geometric cards with a card reader and geometric cards (printed, I understand, in magnetic ink) for the various biodynamic preparations including the new horn clay preparations. She puts an aerial photo or a survey map of the property to be treated--with the boundaries clearly marked--in the well of the Malcolm Rae instrument. She pendulum dowses to find the necessary potency for the current situation, and she sets this potency on the Malcolm Rae instrument's dial. She also dowses for color, if any, and inserts the appropriate color slide in the well if needed. If a particular herb, mineral, constellation or star is required she has to set this up parallel on a different type of Malcolm Rae instrument (a base 10 or base 44 instrument), which she can run simultaneously for the duration of the treatment. Then she dowses for the duration of treatment and the rate of interruption, turns on the instrument(s) and goes on about her business, coming back and turning things off at the proper time. (She could use a timer, but doesn't happen to have one yet.) Currently she starts her rain-producing biodynamic treatment sequences shortly after sundown with BD barrel compost. Barrel compost is really charged up with chemistry and life ether, which is associated with nourishment and the lime and earthly polarity. And because life force (organizing, formative force) streams from lesser to greater concentration--and thus from the wide open cosmic expanses beyond the Saturn and the heliopause toward the Sun--it streams downward into the Earth when the Sun is below the horizon. What weather forecasters and chaos theorists call the "butterfly effect"--from the proposition that a butterfly flapping its wings can change the weather--depicts a principle of fluid dynamics Osborne Reynolds stated in the 19th century: "A microscopic change at a point can effect large-scale changes in the medium." The interrupter takes advantage of this by turning the treatment instrument on and off roughly 100 times a minute (or more) creating LOTS of microscopic changes at a point. The point, of course, is the bounded area represented in the well of the instrument. This treatment may continue for a couple of hours, which means 100 treatments a minute for 120 minutes or 120,000 butterflies all flapping their wings in tandem within the treated area. This can build up quite an nourishing etheric charge in the soil overnight. The next morning shortly after sunrise Lorraine will spend a few minutes setting up another treatment with biodynamic horn silica (BD 501), again dowsing for potency, duration, frequency of interruption, color, herbs, minerals, constellations and stars. Since the Sun is above the horizon the ether is streaming upward now, and because the soil is so much more richly charged with vitality the upward stream of organizing life forces--the warmth and light, relating to fruiting and ripening--is nourished and made much, much stronger. During drought you can go outside and observe the nature of the atmosphere. Stand on a ridge and look off into the distance, as well as upward in the atmosphere. The atmosphere will be disorganized with pollution and water vapor creating a thick haze, while cloud formation will be weak or non-existant in the first couple thousand feet of the atmosphere. There is no organizing (vital) force to suck the water vapor into clouds and hold it there, and there will be only a weak,indistinct boundary region where rising water vapor billows up under the influence of warmth and light against the clearer, colder, upper atmosphere. When Lorraine increases the vital, organizing flow of forces this soon becomes apparant as a lessening of haze and a strengthening of the boundary phenomena at the top of the forming clouds. Wherever a little puff of cloud occurs it catches the warmth and light in its upper regions of while cooling the atmosphere directly underneath. This cooling at the bottom condenses atmospheric moisture beneath the cloud. This condensation is then drawn upward into the cloud with the updraft created at the top by the absorption of warmth and light which "cooks" the cloud causing it to billow in its upper regions. Such updrafts further densify the cloud making it thicker at the top and shadier at the bottom so that the gradually increasing condensation at the cloud's bottom is increasingly sucked into the cloud by the updrafts which are roiling, spilling over and cascading at the cloud's top against its boundary with the colder upper atmosphere. Thus by enriching the life forces of the soil and then the atmosphere Lorraine brings about much better cloud formation even on the first day of treatment. That evening shortly after sundown she will set up another treatment, this time with biodynamic horn manure (BD 500). Because there is now much more vitality in the atmosphere this treatment draws the fruits of an even richer stream of ether downward into the soil. Then the next morning when she sets up a treatment with biodynamic equisetum decoction (BD 508) she gets another, even more nourishing increase of organization going, which brings about cloud formation even lower in the atmosphere and with its shade decreases the haze and oppressive heat even more. The whole process is kind of like pumping oneself up on a swing set with carefully timed pulls and pushes with arms and legs on the swing chains and its seat. Pump, pump, pump, and if you did it hard enough no doubt you'd spill all in a heap. Of course, with cloud formation such a spill is hardly as catastrophic as it might be with a swing set. Currently Lorraine is experimenting with tying together this whole cycle of prep treatments with an evening treatment of fall-to-spring horn clay the evening of the morning equisetum treatment, followed the next morning by a treatment of spring-to-fall horn clay to give as much improvement as possible to the boundary layer phenomena that hold in cloud formation vitality. Then, of course, if it hasn't yet rained sufficiently it is possible to follow right up with a repetition of the full cycle all over again, building another round of BD forces on top of and into the location being treated. Frequently, however, this has not been necessary. As you may imagine with such a varied and well-rounded approach, especially with 120,000 BD butterflies all beating their wings in tandem--whew! Lorraine made (previously unforcast) rain in the area around Columbus, Ohio last July when we were there at the Psychotronic Convention, and she got thundershowers in Columbus despite there being more pollution there with all the automobiles. She made rain in mid-August on Long Island when she went home to visit her family. She also made rain on the farm (UAI in Georgia) with just a couple treatments on the aerial photo while she was away visiting her family. Of course, the farm is easy as it is supercharged with BD vitality already. We haven't used irrigation in six years, and I ought to sell all our equipment as we don't need it. Besides it's a tremendous expenditure of work and cash when and if we use it. The only time it's seen use in the past ten years was when we had a dry spell while Mercury was retrograde. I was treating with this same basic sequence using my Hieronymus Analyser (which has no interruptor). Mercury retrograde signifies no apparant progress--and Mercury relates to weather, which is a very mercurial thing. I ended up pumping irrigation water while treating for two solid weeks with no more than token rain until Mercury went direct. Then within an hour or so we had a four inch downpour on the farm (almost washed us away) and at least one inch in the surrounding county. My comment was "Whoops!" Like I said above, I tutored Lorraine as far as the biodynamics goes, but she has taken this and run with it, combining it with much more advanced radionic techniques than I might ever have learned by myself. This proceedure has hardly been taken as far as it can go. For instance, it remains to make recordings of Tibetan silver bells of various tones and get a cassette player with an ear plug that will fit in the Malcolm Rae instrument's well so that various tones can be included in treatments along with color. I rather imagine the vortexial cow horn aspect of the BD preps encompasses the form energies of sphere, cone (fire); pyramid, prism (light); cup or wave (water); and building block or crystal-lattice structures (earth). However, these also might be reinforced in some fashion in the treatment process making it even more effective. So it is pretty clear she's only scratched the surface of this method's potential. She'll be teaching how to make rain at our UAI conference here in Blairsville, Georgia (September 3, 4 and 5) and also at Allan's conference at Claymont (Charlestown, WV October 1,2 and 3). Also, Greg Willis, who's work with horn clay has laid down one of the cornerstones of this new evolution in biodynamics, will also be at our Blairsville conference (September 3, 4, and 5) and will be giving a long day's intensive workshop (with Lorraine and myself contributing) on the day BEFORE my conference (thursday, September 2). It will cover everything from getting started stirring and applying preps on new land on the order of 10 acres or more--to some very advanced biodynamic practices, particularly as regards viticulture. In summary, I guess Biodynamics hasn't experienced a greater explosion of transformative changes in all its 75 year history as it has in this anniversary year. There's nothing pedestrian about the ability of BD to heal the earth. Isn't it exciting? Cheers, Hugh Lovel ***** Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 16 00:39:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA08606 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 00:39:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA04178; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 00:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA04083 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 00:16:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 153.37.17.226 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:19:00 -0700 Message-ID: <001b01bee79f$1bddf560$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: Biodynamic Reading Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:23:34 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1540 Dear Woody (and anyone who cares about these funny things that happen on BDNow between supposedly well-meaning folks, Thanks for your comments about what you suggest to others to read. Interesting. I think we all have ideas about what is helpful and all of our ideas have room to be expressed. You sound like that bothers you. I am sorry bout that, but plurality of ideas, sources, experiences tends to be a good thing. I think the books you suggest are fine, as far as I can tell, but decline to comment on them until I have studied them further. May turn out that I think they are the bible of biodynamics (if indeed that is your concern). Furthermore, sounds like you are trying to put me down personally for some reason with your comments about or . Seems rather childish (and completely unimportant to the subject matter) as you dont know me at all, have never met me or ever communicated with me on this subject. But thats ok, you seem to have an axe to grind for some reason or another. Grind away. I was just trying to offer all readers a broader selection to choose from and to let them know that there are many wonderful and accessable titles on biodynamics. To some of your other comments: You wrote:Tompkins book is from 1989, Lovels from 1994. Test of time? Perhaps. I am not sure time has anything to with it, but since you bring it up, Storl's book, which is extremely easy to read (far from dense) is from 1979 (ten years older than either of the other books) and is based on many years of practical experience Wolf Storl had both in the US and in Europe. Lili Kolisko's book is - as I pointed out - not hard to read, despite scientific stuff - since it is extremely well explained in simple terms (One just has to take the time to read it) was written in the 1940's and updated later, based on almost 50 years of bd experience by Ms. Kolisko. Ms. Shuilthuis' book is also based on 40+ years of practical experience in the field. So too Remer's book and Sattler's part in his book.. and so on and on. So, the time thing is really a none issue. The dense thing too. And as far as raw versus digested information, I am not sure you really know what you are talking about. These folks are some of the finest and most experienced practitioners of bd in the world. But hey, if you are having trouble understanding these texts, let me know and I'll be glad to send you the name and address of someone in your area who might work with you on it. As for putting authors into categories (like those whose work is mere ) I might suggest a bit more homework and a pinch more polish (that means respect) for work you haven't studied and folks you dont know. Seems like the right thing. As far as orthodox, well that may be the whole axe to grind thing for you, but I dont think its a real issue. For far too long too many bytes have been wasted on this otherwise great list on negativity about this minor problem or that - mostly of personal nature between individuals and having little to do with biodynamics itself. Lets get over it, work together, act mature and trying to inspire each other and others to take up this work we all love, called biodynamics. I'm glad you like the two books you suggested. Try and actually read some of the others and you might like them too. Cheers, Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 16 02:26:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA09537 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 02:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA07891; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 02:09:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA07777 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 02:07:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.74] (max11-45.stc.net [208.210.136.45]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA10468 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 02:09:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <40e12fba.24e5d17d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 02:02:55 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1541 >>In a message dated 8/13/1999 12:43:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >>romerog@col1.telmex.net.mx writes: >> >><< Indeed it is strange (not previously know, seen, etc. unusual, >>extraordinary...), so it is burying cow horns fill with grounded quartz, and >>that is what we do, is'nt ? >> >> >>not really. It's proven to work, at least from what I've heard (I still >>have >>to apply preps to see for myself). Depending the way you explain how the >>preps are created is probably what would cause someone to think it's >>peculiar. If applying the preps required a sacrificial virgin, or something >>to that effect, then indeed it would be strange. > >OK, you win. > >Cheers > > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Gosh, BD Listers, Permit me a comment here. It's NOT AT ALL strange to me that one could experience evolution from the level of single cells all the way up to humanity and get and "Epiphany" experience at the amphibian level. I know. It's ever so common in our day and age to invalidate at least 90% (if not more) of human experiences and abilities. However, back when I studied psychology under Jack Horner and practiced giving people biofeedback sessions all day long with one person after another up to 100 hours a week, what many would call amazing turned out to be commonplace. Our biofeedback techniques were designed to detect truth, rather than "lie detection." And we routinely guided people through experiences by getting them into the right state of consciousness and asking them questions that were as unbiased and revealing as possible of their inner realities. Every so often we would get a case of someone who got freaked out and "stuck" in one such guided session as the described evolutionary journey. Re-birthings. Past lives. Possessions. Assumed viewpoints. Reliving unconscious experiences. These were some of the commonest routines. Though these things are hardly ho-hum to the person going through them, they became the commonest sort of fare to those of us trained as eductors. Believe me (or if you choose, don't believe me) this sort of thing is quite real and poignant. It only seems strange to those trained by culture and upbringing to look the other way and never notice the possibility of experiencing such things. I've seen people be bees, butterflies, chickens, pigs, bears, rats, etc. I saw one person come frighteningly close to spontaneous combustion. I saw the biofeedback instrument give unheard of readings and I felt the wash of heat! The client in question raced to the faucet and spent 15 minutes under the full-blast cold tap. I had quite a time getting him back in session and continuing through with the experience. There's people who would never believe these things, but it's all out there and it's all just as real as the things we think normal and commonplace. It IS normal and commonplace. Ho-hum, Hugh Lovel ***** Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 16 02:26:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA09545 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 02:26:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA07919; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 02:09:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA07783 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 02:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.74] (max11-45.stc.net [208.210.136.45]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA10475 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 02:10:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 02:16:41 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: New Subject Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1542 >has anyone heard of "pyramid" and/or orgone energies? If so, what have the >results been with those "energies" & agriculture, if any. I'm also curious >if those "energies" are the same thing or not. Pyramid and orgone energies are some of the range of etheric life forces that biodynamic agriculture works with. If you get Peter Proctor's book, GRASP THE NETTLE, there's a rather good exposition of the range of life forces from sphere to pyramid to wave to crystal-lattice building blocks associated with the ELEMENTS of fire, air, water and earth and the ETHERS of warmth, light, chemistry and life. Reich's brilliant, ground-breaking work with what he called orgone energy spanned more than a couple of these ethers, though he was hardly aware of the scope of what he was studying. If you're interested in this kind of thing, keep studying biodynamic agriculture and everything else you can find about this topic. No one school knows it all. I'm reminded of the five blind pundits who encountered the first elephant. The first one found the trunk and proclaimed an elephant was like a snake. The second encountered the ear and noted the elephant was actually like a fan. The third felt the leg and said the elephant was really much like a tree. The fourth felt the broad side of the beast and discovered the elephant was like a wall. The fifth stumbled into the tail and determined the elephant was most like unto a rope. One thing biodynamics IS steeped in. That's seeing the bigger picture. Go for it JLacome@aol.com, whoever you are. Best, Hugh Lovel ***** Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 16 02:27:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA09554 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 02:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA07862; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 02:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA07772 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 02:06:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.143.74] (max11-45.stc.net [208.210.136.45]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA10461 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 02:09:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37B733D6.145F@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 01:32:36 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: sprayer contamination Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1543 >The strength of the BD preps and the damage done to them by chemical >contamination has long been a speculation to the negative. > >At a recent seminar regarding the Passion Vine Hopper pepper we >successfully used last season, the spray copntractor who sprayed some 20 >orchards, told the story of one he did which was a chemical orchard. The >PVH pepper was sprayed through the chemical sprayer, with no cleaning. >It was determined by all concerned that the pepper worked as well as it >had done on the organic orchards. > >My experience with up to D30 potencies of the preps over the last 20 >years has shown me they are very resilient against all, the noraml >homoeopathic fears, electricity, heat, sunlight, strong smells, taken >with food etc. I have used them in a cleaned out solo sprayer and have >every reason to believe they are effective through it. > >Our delicate preparatins may not be as delicate as we suspect. > >cheers > >Glen A. Quite right, Glen. The preps may seem delicate since we generally use them in such sparing doses. Then they seem even more delicate when we potentize them because then we use 8x (or D8), 10x (or D10) and so on. Even as potencies, however, I have reason to believe their strong vitality isn't at all easy to disrupt. Anecdotally Hugh Courtney and I once taped a unit of 502 to a half horse fan motor overnight. Prior to the taping it registered a general vitality of 2,500 on my Hieronymus Analyser. Immediately after removal it registered below 20. Within 24 hours it was back to nearly 1,300 and still climbing. The preps would seem to be hard to kill. Much harder, in fact, than most humans who generally register under 1,000 general vitality with the same instrument. Hugh Lovel ***** Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 16 04:11:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA10853 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 04:11:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA10610; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 03:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bom3.vsnl.net.in (lvsb1.vsnl.net.in [202.54.4.24]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA10472 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 03:50:26 -0400 (EDT) From: shiltex@bom3.vsnl.net.in Received: from rajesh (PPP-203-197-2-80.bom.vsnl.net.in [203.197.2.80]) by bom3.vsnl.net.in (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id NAA10258 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:23:08 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990816105149.006adba8@bom3.vsnl.net.in> X-Sender: shiltex@bom3.vsnl.net.in X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:51:49 +0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: BD Farms in India in Thailand In-Reply-To: <37B45A71.4CBC@globalnet.co.uk> References: <4.1.19990812233539.00cb55b0@pop-server> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1544 dear phyl, i have been following the discussions for a while now. i am based in mumbai, india, and am very interested in bd and other forms of natural/organic farming. i do not know whether there are any bd farms here, but i am aware of some organic farms close to mumbai. in case you are interested, do let me have your travel schedule, and i will be glad to take you there. also, we are in the process of buying 40 acres of land for agricultural activities, and it would be nice to discuss the same with you. awaiting your reply, devdatt t. kapadia mumbai At 06:48 PM 8/13/99 +0100, you wrote: >Phyl Dwyer wrote: >> >> August 12, 1999 Waianae, Hawaii >> >> Dear Friends, >> >> Some friends are headed out to tour Thailand and India. They've asked >> me to ask BDNow folks if anyone knows of any biodynamic farms in India >> or Thailand. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Phyl >> >> ============================================== >> pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com >> >> Phyl Dwyer >> Kahumana Farm >> 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. >> Waianae, HI 96792 >> >> 808-696-1010 >> 808-696-2020 Fax >It gives me gret pleasure to advise you that there is a tea garden >run by Rajah Bannerjee called Makaibari BD Tea Garden I will find the >full address and post it later it is fantastic and well worth a visit >I spent a couple of weeks there several years ago so I should know > >Rex Tyler >-- >------------------------ >visit us at Cook's Delight: >http://surf.to/cooksdelight > >from August 15, 1999 >http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk > >------------------------ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 16 05:03:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA11188 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 05:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA11923; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 04:46:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA11830 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 04:44:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-003.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.103]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05919 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:00:21 +1200 Message-ID: <000401bee7c4$3549fc40$67f631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: BD Farms in India- devdatt.t.kapadia Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 20:49:08 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1545 Contact Peter Proctor by email pproctor@inhb.co.nz Peter does a lot of BD work in India and has a number of groups and initiatives underway. (If that email address is not correct-I think it is but it is from memory get back to the bdnow list...some one will have the correct one) Gareth Bodle Whangarei NZ -----Original Message----- From: shiltex@bom3.vsnl.net.in To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, 16 August 1999 08:17 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: BD Farms in India in Thailand >dear phyl, > >i have been following the discussions for a while now. i am based in >mumbai, india, and am very interested in bd and other forms of >natural/organic farming. i do not know whether there are any bd farms here, >but i am aware of some organic farms close to mumbai. in case you are >interested, do let me have your travel schedule, and i will be glad to take >you there. also, we are in the process of buying 40 acres of land for >agricultural activities, and it would be nice to discuss the same with you. > >awaiting your reply, > > >devdatt t. kapadia >mumbai > > > >At 06:48 PM 8/13/99 +0100, you wrote: >>Phyl Dwyer wrote: >>> >>> August 12, 1999 Waianae, Hawaii >>> >>> Dear Friends, >>> >>> Some friends are headed out to tour Thailand and India. They've asked >>> me to ask BDNow folks if anyone knows of any biodynamic farms in India >>> or Thailand. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Phyl >>> >>> ============================================== >>> pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com >>> >>> Phyl Dwyer >>> Kahumana Farm >>> 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. >>> Waianae, HI 96792 >>> >>> 808-696-1010 >>> 808-696-2020 Fax >>It gives me gret pleasure to advise you that there is a tea garden >>run by Rajah Bannerjee called Makaibari BD Tea Garden I will find the >>full address and post it later it is fantastic and well worth a visit >>I spent a couple of weeks there several years ago so I should know >> >>Rex Tyler >>-- >>------------------------ >>visit us at Cook's Delight: >>http://surf.to/cooksdelight >> >>from August 15, 1999 >>http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk >> >>------------------------ >> >> >> > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 16 07:58:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA12029 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 07:58:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA16280; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 07:40:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA16179 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 07:37:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp322.cy-net.net [208.21.195.131]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA21485 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 06:40:57 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEE7B0.AA37DA40@FLYLO>; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 06:29:16 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEE7B0.AA37DA40@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: OFF: that sick feeling Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 06:29:11 -0500 Encoding: 11 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1546 There have been some good posts recently on BD NOW, worthy of saving. So, when I collected them to move to my folder for biodynamics, I received a jolt when I realized it was missing! I opened up other folders and it's not moved, just GONE. I'd had over a year's worth of good solid information in it. Some of it's been backed up but not a lot. So, reiterating the obvious, if you have messages in e-mail that you value, back them up, move them to other folders out of your e-mail program, or otherwise save them to permanent areas on your computer, but don't rely on a folder in e-mail to save them. martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 16 08:50:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA12724 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:50:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA17634; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17474 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:29:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.01049EA4@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 8:29:53 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 16 Aug 99 08:32:53 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 16 Aug 99 08:32:45 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:32:35 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes Priority: normal In-reply-to: <9bafc357.24e560d7@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <7D9A3956A40@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1547 Neillco wrote: > I think people would be better off if they stopped saying how ridiculous > other peoples interpretations of reality were and tried harder to find out > what it really is for themselves. Some people beleive the earthe is carried > on the back of a giant turtle-so what's it to you? There's probably not a > human mind in existence that could tell you what everything is, all of the > time. Grow up. Just in case this was directed at me (for saying people who do the "plus seven days for creation" calculation of the earth are ridiculous), my only comment is: I'm growing, I'm growing! (Hopefully I'm evolving too...;-)) Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 16 08:50:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA12732 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:50:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA17671; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:33:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17584 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:32:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.01049F96@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 8:32:52 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 16 Aug 99 08:35:51 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 16 Aug 99 08:35:44 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:35:40 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes Priority: normal In-reply-to: <40df5f72.24e5a827@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <7D9B04F357C@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1548 > In a message dated 8/13/1999 8:48:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > pamdetray@email.com writes: > > << I followed your argument with interest and agreement until you turned > caustic. For heaven's sake, you lost all the ground you gained. Do you just > need to be right, or are you truly interested in presenting truth? > >> > > i'm truly interested, but this stuff about "experiencing" evolution is > slightly strange, wouldn't you say so? Stranger yet is the ag remedies recommended by some kook at the turn of the century that included things like, cow's manure packed into cow horns (preferably of a cow that had given birth a few times) and then buried in a very particular way with special attention given to the time, and then "spread" on the land in minute quantities after having been swished around in a container for 20 minutes in a perscribed way and other such outlandish practices. Apparently he thought that the swishing, for example, had something to do with "cosmic forces." That's more than "slightly strange," wouldn't you say so? Anita PS. I don't think it even requires a sacrificial virgin to sound stranger than Jeanne "feeling" the forces of evolution. You seem to want to take a "scientific" view of things, but your "science" only includes the five ordinary senses. It's hard to imagine anyone who is truly interested in anthroposophy thinking that this is all there is. Steiner certainly did not come up with all his stuff (education, agriculture, architecture, medicine, etc) by just using his five ordinary senses. Granted, it is difficult to understand the other "senses" (which I might roughly catagorize as "intuition" or "inspiration") or verify someone else's experience with them, and when you haven't experienced such a thing, you are certainly likely to think that it has no validity. "I need to see it to believe it" is the creed of the limited-to-five-senses scientist. Whereas, "I often need to believe it to see it" is the understanding of the more "evolved" scientist. There are many things which are said on this listserv which clash with my basic experience of reality, and one of my best friends from this list regularly makes me roll my eyes, smirk, and shake my head. But I try to bear in mind that it is his constant searching with his sixth sense "antenae" that also allows him to come up with jewels from time to time. I also appreciate the balance that my corrospondence with him brings to my life. I'm surrounded by 5-sense scientists who want everything reduced to numbers that can be put through fancy statistical models and then need to back up everything they say and write a jillion references (so as to affirm that they are NOT going out on a limb anywhere). So I appreciate getting the balance from some in particular on this list who are not afraid of saying something "outlandish" (something that isn't confirmed over and over by The Literature) to remind me that there are other ways of understanding reality, even when these ways are just too far out for my sensibilities. Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 16 10:30:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14728 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:30:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23651; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:13:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23553 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:12:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.24] (pm3mbr5-166-250.intrepid.net [209.190.166.250]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27988 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:15:10 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BEE7B0.AA37DA40@FLYLO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:01:47 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: BD Now! ARCHIVES was OFF: that sick feeling Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1549 >There have been some good posts recently on BD NOW, worthy of saving. So, >when I collected them to move to my folder for biodynamics, I received a >jolt when I realized it was missing! I opened up other folders and it's not >moved, just GONE. I'd had over a year's worth of good solid information in >it. Some of it's been backed up but not a lot. So, reiterating the obvious, >if you have messages in e-mail that you value, back them up, move them to >other folders out of your e-mail program, or otherwise save them to >permanent areas on your computer, but don't rely on a folder in e-mail to >save them. >martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) >http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ While not the easiest to use, the BD Now! Archives should be located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 16 10:30:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14723 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:30:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23707; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:13:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23562 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:12:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.24] (pm3mbr5-166-250.intrepid.net [209.190.166.250]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28003 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:15:14 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003501bee72d$16fee260$939dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:05:59 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: JPI Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1550 > Terry has only been on the list for a couple of weeks.  He >would not know what JPI stands for.  Perhaps somebody could post the >full name and address for him.  From his voice conversation with me >yesterday, he prefers to start with a book that is as practical as >possible.  The Ag. Course was a little beyond him at this stage, >both in German and English.  Michael The Josephine Porter Institute of Applied Biodynamics Post Office Box 133 Woolwine, Virginia 24185, U.S.A. Phone/Fax 1-540-530-2463 web: http://www.igg.com/bdnow/jpi JPI's old booklist is on the www, avail. through the URL above. Their newest booklist remains on my harddisk, waiting for the time to publish it on the www. Thanks -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 16 10:33:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14762 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:33:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23935; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:16:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23791 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:14:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.24] (pm3mbr5-166-250.intrepid.net [209.190.166.250]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28447 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:17:50 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:22:09 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Interns Wanted for Biodynamic Work at Claymont Farm, WV Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1551 At a 360-acre historic property, educational non-profit and spiritual retreat center in West Virginia, nearby to Baltimore and Washington, I have immediate positions for: - a biodynamic farming and gardening intern (individual or family) for the fall season (this can be a year-around opportunity) - an intern for working on any of several aspects the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Confernece, Oct 1-3 (but position is open Today, 9/15/99) This is essentially office work, but you will be working with the extended Natural farming community. (Will consider a cyber-volunteer for some of this work) - a kitchen intern for a 1-year program in natural cooking for large groups of people gathered for a variety of spiritual endeavors These positions can involve room and board. Stipends and/or Cash bonuses are also available for qualified individuals. Please contact me immediately for more detailed information. Thanks Allan Balliett Farm Manager Claymont Farm CSA BIODYNAMICS Now! Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 16 11:14:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA15844 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:14:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25858; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:52:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25731 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:50:25 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hIRDa07454 (4117) for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <348d6d2d.24e97fb5@aol.com> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:52:37 EDT Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 31 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1552 In a message dated 8/16/1999 5:38:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, agraf@agecon.uga.edu writes: << Apparently he thought that the swishing, for example, had something to do with "cosmic forces." That's more than "slightly strange," wouldn't you say so? Anita >> no stranger than the people explaining magnetism & microwaves to people when they were first discovered. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 16 12:04:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16958 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:04:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29938; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29663 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:45:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip030.computer.net [140.186.252.30]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA05580 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:48:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:48:08 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: August 15, 1999 - August 21, 1999 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA29666 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1553 Calendar of the Soul [August 15, 1999 - August 21, 1999] Twentieth Week (August 18-24) I feel at last my life's reality Which, severed from the world's existence, Would in itself obliterate itself, And building only on its own foundation, Would in itself bring death upon itself. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ So fühl ich erst mein Sein, Das fern vom Welten-Dasein In sich, sich selbst erlöschen Und bauend nur auf eignem Grunde In sich, sich selbst ertöten müsste. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+20 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 16 23:46:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA24461 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:46:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17202; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:27:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA16152 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:19:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-66.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.66]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA02183 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:22:52 +1000 Message-ID: <009101bee85f$88ac8f60$54431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Fw: that sick feeling Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:28:23 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1554 -----Original Message----- From: Cheryl Kemp To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, 17 August 1999 11:27 am Subject: Re: that sick feeling >Dear Martha, >I thought this had happened to me once, but then I started to find the >folders in under other folder names, so check every folder you have, as the >BD one may be hiding there! Good luck, >Cheryl Kemp. >-----Original Message----- >From: Martha Wells >To: 'Biodynamic Now' >Date: Monday, 16 August 1999 9:45 pm >Subject: OFF: that sick feeling > > >>There have been some good posts recently on BD NOW, worthy of saving. So, >>when I collected them to move to my folder for biodynamics, I received a >>jolt when I realized it was missing! I opened up other folders and it's not >>moved, just GONE. I'd had over a year's worth of good solid information in >>it. Some of it's been backed up but not a lot. So, reiterating the obvious, >>if you have messages in e-mail that you value, back them up, move them to >>other folders out of your e-mail program, or otherwise save them to >>permanent areas on your computer, but don't rely on a folder in e-mail to >>save them. >>martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) >>http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ >> > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 16 23:48:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA24500 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17248; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:28:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA16160 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:20:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-66.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.66]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA02186 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:22:55 +1000 Message-ID: <009201bee85f$89e25040$54431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Horn Clay and John Priestly in Australia. Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 12:37:32 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0083_01BEE8AD.471E31E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1555 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01BEE8AD.471E31E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Allan, Re John Priestly's horn clay idea. I have spoken with John and discussed how he developed his horn clay = ideas. John's history is interesting. His father worked organically for years, = and set up the 6000 tree orchard for John. John is in his middle 60's = now, and has been working with Biodynamics for the past 14 years. He is = an inspiration as a farmer, and he uses his observation skills to build = his knowledge. He once told a group I was in that the first requirement = to be a BD horticulturalist is a pair of binoculars and a book on birds = of the area.! His skills of observation of bird life has led him to = observe many other aspects of life on his farm, so one learns much from = his developed skills of observation and solutions to problems whose = answers are just in front of our noses. John noticed that the land that had red clay as the subsoil was the most = seasonal. By this he means that it would give and take with the seasons = - it had the ability to give back. What it takes in the winter, it = would give back in the summer. Whereas the alluvial soils down near the = river did not have this ability. So he wanted to give this ability to = the alluvial soils, how to do this? John had been experimenting with = using blood and bone in cow horns buried with the 500, so he decided to = try putting some of the good red clay into horns and burying it with the = 500 horns. He puts down about 450 horns, and one horn of clay. When = he knocks out the Prep. 500, into 3 copper bowls, he adds 1/3 of clay to = each bowl and mixes it well for a few days to oxygenate and finds that = the clay disappears and becomes part of the 500. Clay has this effect. Then he puts out this Horn clay/ 500 about three times per year and he = has found that the alluvial flats get better and better. It is acting = in a more seasonal way too and also grows a wonderful crop of fertility = plants and herbs under his trees.=20 He also suggests that for bare rooted trees, that if you dip them in a = mix of a clay slurry made with some stirred 500, you will be surprised = at the growth. One of the special things that came up at our recent BD Conference where = John was talking about the importance of keeping records of what we do, = was that John and his old friend Leon Sivyer used to meet every Friday = morning and go through their notes that they had written up on their = farm activities each week. Leon had a Beef Cattle property nearby, and = he also did lots of experiments with BD. Leon used to work with = classical music on loud speakers on his tractor and sprayed the BD Fish = Emulsion and other foliar sprays out and he had great results. Whereas = John had the birds all over the trees and surrounding bush, Leon felt = that as his land had been cleared for pasture more "bird sound " was = required to help his pastures grow. Leon did plant many trees in and = around his property, in fact he won a prize as" Environmental Farmer of = the Year" for his work with tree planting. Leon also found that by = putting some weeds or plants in pots and watering them with foliar = sprays of different dilutions, he found the optimal dilution levels for = his crops. (1:40 - 1: 60 ). So by these two men making the time to discuss and share their notes and = thoughts on Biodynamics, they were able to develop many new and = successful ideas for the BD movement. This point about keeping records was so important , we felt at the = Conference, for if we want our work to have benefit and credibility for = future work and also to learn for ourselves, we must keep good records = of our work. There are persons wanting to do work with peppers and weed = control, but as we have no records of peppering done, just word of = mouth, they now have to start from scratch. =20 Allan, maybe one of the discussions we could have on BD Now is what = people are experimenting with - and maybe some could pair up to develop = their work, just as Leon and John did on their Friday morning = discussions over their cup of tea. The sad part for John is that Leon = died in January this year, and of course John misses his work with him = immeasurably. Cheryl Kemp. P.S. John Priestly does not have a computer or fax and it is difficult = for him to get time to write out his information. That is why I have to = ring him and write it up myself , for otherwise we should not get any of = this information written. We keep threatening him with writing a book = with him, as his knowledge is boundless. But we do have quite some data = in previous News Leafs. Cheryl Kemp Education Officer & News Leaf Editor Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322=20 email: bio@midcoast.com.au ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01BEE8AD.471E31E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Allan,
Re John Priestly's horn clay=20 idea.
I have spoken with John and = discussed how he=20 developed his horn clay ideas.
John's history is interesting.  = His father=20 worked organically for years, and set up the 6000 tree orchard for = John. =20 John is in his middle 60's now, and has been working with Biodynamics = for the=20 past 14 years.  He is an inspiration as a farmer, and he uses his=20 observation skills to build his knowledge.  He once told a group I = was in=20 that the first requirement to be a BD horticulturalist is a pair of = binoculars=20 and a book on birds of the area.!  His skills of observation of = bird life=20 has led him to observe many other aspects of life on his farm, so one = learns=20 much from his developed skills of observation and solutions to problems = whose=20 answers are just in front of our noses.
 
John noticed that the land that had red clay as the = subsoil=20 was the most seasonal. By this he means that it would give and take with = the=20 seasons - it had the ability to give back.  What it takes in the = winter, it=20 would give back in the summer.  Whereas the alluvial soils down = near the=20 river did not have this ability. So he wanted to give this ability to = the=20 alluvial soils, how to do this?  John had been experimenting with = using=20 blood and bone in cow horns buried with the 500, so he decided to try = putting=20 some of the good red clay into horns and burying it with the 500=20 horns.   He puts down about 450 horns, and one horn of = clay. =20 When he knocks out the Prep. 500, into 3 copper bowls, he adds 1/3 of = clay to=20 each bowl and mixes it well for a few days to oxygenate and finds that = the clay=20 disappears and becomes part of the 500.  Clay has this = effect.
Then he puts out this Horn clay/ 500 about three = times per=20 year and he has found that the alluvial flats get better and = better.  It is=20 acting in a more seasonal way too and also grows a wonderful crop of = fertility=20 plants and herbs under his trees. 
 He also suggests that for bare rooted trees, = that if you=20 dip them in a mix of a clay slurry made with some stirred 500, you will = be=20 surprised at the growth.
One of the special things that came up at our recent = BD=20 Conference where John was talking about the importance of keeping = records of=20 what we do, was that John and his old friend Leon Sivyer used to meet = every=20 Friday morning and go through their notes that they had written up on = their farm=20 activities each week.  Leon had a Beef Cattle property = nearby,  and he=20 also did lots of experiments with BD. Leon used to work with classical = music on=20 loud speakers on his tractor and sprayed the BD Fish Emulsion and other = foliar=20 sprays out and he had great results.  Whereas John had the birds = all over=20 the trees and surrounding bush, Leon felt that as his land had been = cleared for=20 pasture more "bird sound " was required to help his pastures=20 grow.  Leon did plant many trees in and around his property, in = fact he won=20 a prize as" Environmental Farmer of the Year" for his work = with tree=20 planting. Leon also found that by putting some weeds or plants in pots = and=20 watering them with foliar sprays of different dilutions, he found the = optimal=20 dilution levels for his crops. (1:40 - 1: 60 ).
So by these two men making the time to discuss and = share their=20 notes and thoughts on Biodynamics, they were able to develop many new = and=20 successful ideas for the BD movement.
 
This point about keeping records was so important , = we felt at=20 the Conference, for if we want our work to have benefit and credibility = for=20 future work and also to learn for ourselves, we must keep good records = of our=20 work.  There are persons wanting to do work with peppers and weed = control,=20 but as we have no records of peppering done, just word of mouth, they = now have=20 to start from scratch. 
Allan, maybe one of the discussions we could have on = BD Now is=20 what people are experimenting with - and maybe some could pair up to = develop=20 their work, just as Leon and John did on their Friday morning = discussions over=20 their cup of tea. The sad part for John is that Leon died in January = this year,=20 and of course John misses his work with him immeasurably.
Cheryl Kemp.
P.S. John Priestly does not have a computer or fax = and it is=20 difficult for him to get time to write out his information.  That = is why I=20 have to ring him and write it up myself , for otherwise we should not = get any of=20 this information written.  We keep threatening him with writing a = book with=20 him, as his knowledge is boundless.  But we do have quite some data = in=20 previous News Leafs.
 
Cheryl Kemp
Education Officer & News Leaf=20 Editor
Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc.
of Australia = Inc.
P.O=20 Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office)
627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 = (Home)
Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322
email:=20 bio@midcoast.com.au
------=_NextPart_000_0083_01BEE8AD.471E31E0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 17 00:47:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA26270 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 00:47:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA22543; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 00:28:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA22425 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 00:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.114] ("port 2051"@[148.233.78.114]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FGL000C9FY9F8@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:15:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:23:36 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Horn Clay and John Priestly in Australia. In-reply-to: <009201bee85f$89e25040$54431ccb@cherylke> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id AAA22431 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1556 P.S. John Priestly does not have a computer or fax and it is difficult for him to get time to write out his information. That is why I have to ring him and write it up myself , for otherwise we should not get any of this information written. We keep threatening him with writing a book with him, as his knowledge is boundless. But we do have quite some data in previous News Leafs. Cheryl Kemp >Education Officer & News Leaf Editor >Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. >of Australia Inc. >P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) >627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) >Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 >email: bio@midcoast.com.au Dear Cheryl: Thanks for doing this work. Have you posted Jewels like this before in BD ? (if so, please tell me the aprox dates or send copies to my private address), do you have more on the making ? , I would love hearing much more about this man experiences. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 17 03:19:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA10762 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 03:19:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA27756; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 02:58:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA27715 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 02:57:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-71.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.71]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA02733 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:00:14 +1000 Message-ID: <007501bee87d$e69c1fa0$49431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Horn Clay and John Priestly in Australia. Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:33:47 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1557 Dear Guillermo, Wow, this really amazes me how fast all this email can be! Just sent it off and now I have your reply! Do you just stay up all night or how many hours are you behind Australian Eastern Standard time. ? (We are 10 hours ahead of Greenwich) We have some articles in our old News Leaf Journals. Alan Johnstone, our Secretary is going to find the articles on the old discs and email them to BD Now. I can see I am going to have to sort out his book! Cheryl. -----Original Message----- From: Guillermo Romero To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, 17 August 1999 2:33 pm Subject: Re: Horn Clay and John Priestly in Australia. >P.S. John Priestly does not have a computer or fax and it is difficult for him to get time to write out his information. That is why I have to ring him and write it up myself , for otherwise we should not get any of this information written. We keep threatening him with writing a book with him, as his knowledge is boundless. But we do have quite some data in previous News Leafs. Cheryl Kemp >>Education Officer & News Leaf Editor >>Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. >>of Australia Inc. >>P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) >>627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) >>Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 >>email: bio@midcoast.com.au > >Dear Cheryl: > >Thanks for doing this work. Have you posted Jewels like this before in BD ? (if so, please tell me the aprox dates or send copies to my private address), do you have more on the making ? , I would love hearing much more about this man experiences. > >Regards > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 17 03:34:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA10929 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 03:34:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA28288; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 03:16:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alpha.unisa.ac.za (alpha.unisa.ac.za [163.200.97.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA28205 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 03:12:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from GWGATE-Message_Server by alpha.unisa.ac.za with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:08:44 +0200 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:08:28 +0200 From: JC van Staden To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1558 Dear BDers The notion that it would take a large number of generations (1000 human generations was mentioned) to effect an evolutionary change (by mutation) because cellular (or DNA) changes need to somehow accumulate (if I read those posts correctly) before any change can become significant, is indeed, as someone on the list mentioned, linear thinking, and has been disproved by another materialist strand of thinking: chaos/complexity theory. Chaos/complexity posits that even miniscule changes in the intitial conditions may lead to sudden, enormous changes in the whole system. One element in a complex system (and elements are defined in terms of their relations to other elements and to the border of the system) changes, and that change (which is a change in relationship) causes changes in other elements in a nonlinear fashion (a change in A doesn't necessarily change only B in sequential fashion, but can change C, D, F, X etc as well), which means that chaos/complexity can increase very suddenly. Even if the effect of A's change on B is almost negligible, A's change of B may lead to a change in Y, and A's change of F may also lead to a change in Y, an add-on effect on Y, and so on. A bifurcation point appears when chaos reaches the point where the character of the system is challenged: two roads can be followed - either systemic destruction (decomposition, dissolution), or evolutionary change through creativity (adaptation). This happens in all kinds of organisms: biological, social, mental, etc. So its really not about the elements: cells, or DNA within cells, or whatever, it is about the complex relationships that these elements have with each other in a system, in an environment. Mention was made of evolution progressing step by step - its more step step step leap step step step leap, with some falling inbetween and sideways. Choas theory actually should force geneticists etc to be more honest about GM. A small change leading to unpredictable enormous changes ... It is accepted by most of the scientific community. As regards the chaos/system situation, this can probably be related to the Mercury/Jupiter pair: the free flow of information (or relationship) aspect of Mercury, and the ordering aspect of Jupiter. If the Mercury factor is allowed to play its game without bounds, the organism will disintegrate (no boundaries for the increasingly chaotic flow of information); if the Jupiter factor is too strong, the organism may atrophy, or just be immovable in the face of change which may lead to extinction (like dinosaurs, and like some of my countrymen). For me, the chaos explanation is not quite satisfactory: its a materialist explanation, and it explains information in terms of the material elements in which it is embodied. Cellular information is explained in terms of the DNA where you find it. (Perhaps this just shows up my insufficient knowledge of chaos theory.) The question I want to ask about evolution and anthroposophy, is in particular about evolution's non-physical aspects. What happens in the ether and astral bodies? and what is the effect of this on the phiscal body in the phisical environment. I ask this question because of the following passage in a book by Lievegoed (apologies for my mangling tr of the Dutch): "The reaction and action patterns that we call the 'instinct" of the animal species is laid down in the astral organisation. The instinct is an originally astral structure, that expresses itself in the forms of the physical body. Instinct and physical appearance form one whole in the animal. The physical spatial instrument *has been formed through instinct*, and the entire action in time *has been determined by instinct*." Can this perhaps explain the leaps in evolution, in the sense that evolutionary changes take place in the astral body, which then manisfest in the organ formation in the physical body? Christo van Staden PS: Here's the original Dutch for those who can read it: In de astrale organsatie zijn die reactie- en handelingspatronen vastgelegd die wij het 'instinct' van de diersoort noemen. Het instinct is oorspronkelijk een astrale structuur, die zich uitdrukt in de vormen van het fysieke lichaam. Instinct en fysieke gestalte vormen bij het dier *een* geheel. Het fysieke ruimtelijke instrument is *door het instinct gevormd*, en het handelen in de tijd is *door het instinct bepaald*. Bernard Lievegoed, 1983. Mens op de drempel: mogelijkheden en problemen bij de innerlijke ontwikkeling. Uigeverij Vrij Geestesleven Zeist. ************************** JC van Staden Department of Communication University of South Africa PO Box 392 Pretoria 0003 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 17 07:40:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA13155 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 07:40:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA04935; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 07:21:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA04834 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 07:19:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.180] (pm3mbr4-166-180.intrepid.net [209.190.166.180]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA27423 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 07:22:18 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <007501bee87d$e69c1fa0$49431ccb@cherylke> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:21:34 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Horn Clay and John Priestly in Australia. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1559 Cheryl - Some time ago - - in the beginning - - I disucssed with someone from your publication the possibility of putting it ALL on line. It appeared that it was going to happen, then the disks never came. This is still a real possibility from this end. Let me know if you folks are interested. Thanks -Allan Balliett From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 17 08:31:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA14170 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:31:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06926; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:13:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06852 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:12:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-233.s42.as3.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.233]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA29798 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:15:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37B952F7.B86467E6@erols.com> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:17:59 -0400 From: Rex Harrill X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Biodynamic Reading References: <001b01bee79f$1bddf560$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1560 agdoc wrote: > Dear Woody (and anyone who cares about these funny things that happen on > BDNow between supposedly well-meaning folks... I've sat across the kitchen table and chatted with Woody. I've also e-talked with him, privately and publicly, many times. He's kind, gentle, loving of this earth, and as "well-meaning" as they come---bar none. > Furthermore, sounds like you are trying to put me down personally for some > reason with your comments about dense as they are> or . Seems rather childish (and > completely unimportant to the subject matter) as you dont know me at all, > have never met me or ever communicated with me on this subject. But thats > ok, you seem to have an axe to grind for some reason or another... Andrew, your words seem an astounding reach! I've read Woody's message over and over and can detect *nothing* but a desire to add to the conversation. Please reread his words and visualize the gift that he so kindly offered to us all. Regards, Rex Harrill From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 17 10:14:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16145 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:14:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14069; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:56:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13874 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:54:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 153.37.28.233 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 06:56:46 -0700 Message-ID: <000601bee8b8$fe2c5fa0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: Biodynamic Reading Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 07:01:23 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1561 Dear Rex and Friends, Thank you for your note. I appreciate it very much. If I erred in my judgement about Woody's note, I am truly very sorry and appologize from my heart. On the otherhand, it still seems strange to me, that the notion of informing everyone about the many fine books available on biodynamics would draw the kind of response (in the order of ) he wrote including personal comments about what he thinks I prefer or not. Hopefully my concerns are irrelevant. Thanks again. Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 17 10:31:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16532 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:31:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15223; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15116 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:09:33 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hDJDa00254 (4255) for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:12:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4ef20d91.24eac7b3@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:12:03 EDT Subject: Re: Evolution To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 31 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1562 In a message dated 8/17/1999 12:23:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, VSTADJC@alpha.unisa.ac.za writes: << Dear BDers The notion that it would take a large number of generations (1000 human generations was mentioned) to effect an evolutionary change (by mutation) because cellular (or DNA) changes need to somehow accumulate (if I read those posts correctly) before any change can become significant, is indeed, as someone on the list mentioned, linear thinking, and has been disproved by another materialist strand of thinking: chaos/complexity theory. >> Human chromosomes contain roughly 100,000 genes. A difference of only 1 or 2 genes can cause a significant change. Traits such as red hair, freckles, 6 fingers, or having certain diseases are all caused by 1 gene. Now if your idea holds true, then we'd have mutants literally up the ying-yang. The quote I gave regarding it taking 1 million - 100 million replications before a mutation occurs. Because of this geneticists themselves say that a gene is *VERY* stable. Whem a mutation does occur, the vast majority will be harmful. The odds of a mutated gene surviving are pretty slim, as it would take between 1,000-1,000,000 generations to replace completely replace the original gene (30,000-30 million years, give or take). Even still, since all mutations are recessive to begin with, for it to even survive this huge timeframe, it would only become dominant where there is no contrasting dominant trait to oppose it. In other words, mutations are pretty much impossible to have an effect on a species, as there are 2 very large timeframes, as well as 2 checks that prevent it from occuring. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 17 10:39:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16673 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:39:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15740; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15643 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:17:18 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hVSBa01827 (4255) for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:19:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:19:46 EDT Subject: Re: off: Kansas Rejects Evolution In Science Classes To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 31 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1563 In a message dated 8/17/1999 12:23:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, VSTADJC@alpha.unisa.ac.za writes: << Mention was made of evolution progressing step by step - its more step step step leap step step step leap, with some falling inbetween and sideways.. >> problem is that violates one of the most rigid and uncompromising laws in nature, which is the fixity of the species. It is the uniqueness of the chromosomes within each species which prevents the divergence of the line, or the step, hopping and skipping that you mention. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 17 11:55:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18396 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:55:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20859; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:27:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18905 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:06:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from barrylia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EH8XHJPA; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:07:17 EDT To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:07:04 -0700 Subject: Re: Biodynamic Reading Message-ID: <19990817.080705.-4116827.1.barrylia@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-6 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Barry D Lia Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1564 I would venture to add to the reading list Trauger Groh's essays in Farms of Tomorrow Revisited as valuable for inciting others in your community with an interest in the BD you wish to practice. _______________________________________________________________________ Barry Lia \ barrylia@juno.com \ Seattle WA ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 21 00:45:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA02497 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 00:45:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA24667; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 00:25:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA24570 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 00:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.135.32] (max13-18.stc.net [208.210.137.18]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA29678 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 00:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37BD1651.3DAA@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:47:02 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Horn Clay/heliopause Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1565 >Hugh wrote > > >> > >> >This brings many thoughts to mind. When winter comes along and the earth >> >withdraws into itself (sort of receeding below the surface and becoming >> >inwardly independent) is the time of Pluto's rulership, which is Scorpio, >> >the sign of fixed water or ice. It is this time of year (mid November to >> >mid December) when we too may withdraw inwardly and contemplate--filter if >> >you will--the thoughts that come to us from the great beyond. This is when >> >the inner life of clay becomes charged. This inner life then waxes, >> >growing during Jupiter's rulership of Saggitarius (mid December to mid >> >January) and maturing during Saturn's rulership of Capricorn (mid January >> >to mid February). > > >Hugh >This is all very pretty imagery but what about the other half of the >Earth. This not a winter experience for us sorry!!! Quite right, Glen, and good point. As my kiwi friend, Simon Reeves, insists you need to celebrate Christmas, the festival of lights, in June down under. I don't have the answer for this, but it is clear there's a difference going on south of the equator. Well, the Chinese and Indians have a different astrology, and so did the Aztecs and Incas. All were based on empirical observation, with the Aztecs being as sophisticated as any. Any ideas? Best, Hugh > >Just to clarify on Horn Clay > >You and Greg are saying >The balance it is bringing is cosmically speaking between 501 mediator >of Cosmic spaces ie Galaxy, Horn Clay -Heliopause Solar syatem edge, 500 >The Earth. IS this the concept??? > >In all this discussion there seems to be a few mixed images which I am >most interested to see where they lead. > >Clay we have seen helps facilitate the Cosmic Silica processes and from >your description of plant growth we would say Horn Clay is doing that. >The Cosmic sheath images you are using would tend to indicate the same >thing . A similiar image of Cosmic Silica providing a sheath that >contains forces from within is used in lecture 8 I think and I have read >it elsewhere. > >While I can see the threefold imagery as outlined above, I am a little >intrigued that if we are talking about a Cosmic Silica process what >about its relationship to the other three parts of plant growth, Ter Si, >Cos Ca and Ter Ca, it is intimately involved with? These four processes >also act within the polarity of 500 and 501 in the same way as you >suggest just Horn Clay does. I wonder if you and Greg have only part of >the picture here and that three more preps are needed, which I could >imagine the Horn Sulphur ( Cosmic Calcium) and Basalt ( Ter. Si) may >well be involved in. I would suggest a horn lime ( Ter Ca) as the >fourth. > >Anyway just food for thought. A little more stewing will no doubt bring >out the flavours. > >Oh are you going to tape record the coming conference. I for one would >love a set of tapes of all the new stuff > >Cheers > >Glen A. ***** Ah, sunrise. Lo! An eagle perches on a tree top! >From afar some mote, some momentary ray of sunbeam Catches my eye as I gaze far across the forest's roof from my lookout, And I see you, eagle. The awareness arrests my breath, as all my senses thrill. --Lovel Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 21 03:49:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA04029 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 03:49:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA29886; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 03:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fep9.mail.ozemail.net (fep9.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.103]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA29823 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 03:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (slmlb34p13.ozemail.com.au [210.84.137.141]) by fep9.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA03001 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 17:32:53 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <011901beeba6$075593e0$8d8954d2@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: References: Subject: Fellowhip Community N.Y. Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 17:23:07 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1566 Dear Bdnow'ers My husband and I along with some friends have been in conversation re 'spiritual eldering' prompted by reading Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi's book 'From Age-ing to sage-ing. One of the articles (written in '92) on the subject my friend has saved features the Fellowship Community, Chestnut Ridge N.Y. As I have been advised this community is anthroposophically inspired - I am hoping that I can get some information from this group, with the intention of visiting there in October. Please email me directly with any feedback. Warm regards and in anticipation... Gwenda gwendarobb@ozemail.com.au From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 21 04:31:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA04396 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 04:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA00643; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 04:13:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA00601 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 04:12:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d141.infoserve.net [199.175.157.141]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA10709 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 01:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <007901beebae$01979220$8d9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: Conference Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 01:20:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0076_01BEEB73.4FFB7AC0" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1567 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01BEEB73.4FFB7AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Dear bdnowers, > >Attached some info; Regards Ferdinand >-- > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > >C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest >into an >understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar >World Forest >Foundation; a fully registered Canadian charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 > > ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01BEEB73.4FFB7AC0 Content-Type: application/msword; name="A Michaelic Journey.doc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="A Michaelic Journey.doc" 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAIgAAAAAA AAAAEAAAPgAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAACMAAAD///////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 21 14:05:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07590 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15798; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 13:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from penguin.scsinternet.com (root@penguin.scsinternet.com [216.129.11.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15639 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 13:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dial (d41.scsinternet.com [216.129.11.41]) by penguin.scsinternet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA09272 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 13:48:49 -0400 Message-ID: <00a901beebfd$31a4f4e0$02000003@dial.scsinternet.com> From: "Karen Andersen" To: Subject: Fw: I am Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 13:47:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1568 -----Original Message----- From: Chief Grey Cloud To: andersen@scsinternet.com Date: Saturday, August 21, 1999 12:57 PM Subject: FWD: I am >------Original Message------ >Sent: August 6, 1999 9:16:05 PM GMT >Subject: I am > > >I am special. In all the world, there is nobody like me. >Since the beginning of time, there has never been another person like me. >Nobody has my smile. >Nobody has my eyes, my nose, my hair,my hands, my voice. >Nobody can be found who has my handwriting. >Nobody anywhere has my tastes-for food,music or art. >In all of time, there,s been no one else who laughs like me, >no one cries like me. >I,m the only one in all of creation who has my set of abilities. >Oh there will always be somebody who is better at one the things I,m good >at, but no one in the universe can reach the quality of my combination of >talents, ideas,abilities and feelings. >Like a room full of musical instruments, some may excel alone, but none >can match the symphony sound when all are played together. I am a symphony. >Through all eternity, no one will ever look, talk, walk, think or do like >me. >I,m rare. >In all rarity, there is great value. >Because of my great rare value, I need not attempt >to imitate others. >I will accept, even celebrate, my differences. >I,m beginning to realize it,s no accident that I,m special. >I,m beginning to see I came into this life for a very special purpose. >There must be a job for me that no one else can do as well as I. >Out of all the billions of applicants, only one is qualified, >only one has the right combination of what it takes. >THAT ONE IS ME,THAT ONE IS ME ,BECAUSE I,M SPECIAL >Chief Grey Cloud >__________________________________________________ >FREE Email for ALL! Sign up at http://www.mail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 21 19:29:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10204 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:29:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28429; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:12:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA28301 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.84] ("port 2049"@[148.233.78.84]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FGU00IHSASXEE@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 18:03:12 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 16:56:11 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Demeter guidelines and standards request To: bdnow@envirolink.org Cc: ferdy@direct.ca, demeter@baldcom.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id TAA28302 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1569 Dear Friends: I am in the position to influence the way a certificatory agency that operates within the local state university will go in terms of international accreditation. This agency operated a number of years back associated with OCIA, but now days is not internationally accredited. With the aim to make BD grow in this part of the country, I am suggesting them to consider going after the Demeter seal. ( IFOAM acreditation process is under way and they already have IOIA trainned inspectors). This people are also the ones who are writting an initiative for the Mexican Senate that will address the Mexican organic food standards. I am in urgent need to get a copy of the Demeter basic standards and guidelines, so that if some of you could send me an electronic copy of these documents from anywhere in the world I would appreciate it deeply. (in english or spanish, probably from the UK, New Zeland, Australia, Argentina, etc) In the US, I contacted Ms. Anne Mendenhall a few months back, but althought she was kind enough to promise to send me a copy of the standards and answer some of my questions, after repeated requests from my part, that never happened. I do not understand why such standards are not public and publicized; for every producer and Demeter consumer to see. It seems to me that the only value of a certification procedure is to build confidence among consumers or potential consumers that do not have a one to one relationship with producers. So that this discretionality, IMHO opinion serves no public or social interest. It only makes me wonder if it serves the interests of a private group. What is the value of a Demeter seal if the consumer does not know what that represents and entitles ?. I believe that to build an interest in BD among the large fruit exporters of this region could open things up for BD in the whole country, who knows, it could end up being the seed for a Biodynamic Mexican Assoc.: This is specially important now that Mexico is about to sign a TLC with the European Community, where Demeter is fairly important. Please also tell me who should I contact at the Goetheanum, would it be Dr Manfred Klett (head of the Agriculture Department) ?, In such case, do you have an email for him?. Many Thanks for your help and warm greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 21 19:31:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10237 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:31:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28639; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:15:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA28408 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.84] ("port 2051"@[148.233.78.84]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FGU00HDIAXOYN@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 18:05:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 18:10:33 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: horn clay/heliopause? not quite right In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id TAA28413 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1570 >>"In our present epoch, the time between January 15th and February 15th is >>the time when it is easiest for them >parts of the universe> to be independent of the Earth's immediate >>surroundings and come under the influence of the distant cosmic forces >>that are within the Earth. These are things that will eventually become >>recognized as exact indications. For the mineral substances, midwinter is >>the time when the strongest formative forces, the strongest crystallizing >>forces can develop within the Earth. that is when the inner nature of the >>Earth has the characteristic of being least reliant on itself, on its >>mineral masses, and most under the influence of the crystal-forming forces >>from the widths of the universe." --pp 32, 33, Creeger/Gardner. Dear Hugh, Greg, Glen....: I believe Steiner pin pointed this favourable period even further. In the lecture "Christ in Relation to Lucifer and Ahriman (may 18, 1915 GA 159), he mentions in reference to "initiation" that: "the most favourable period for this process is from December 25 to January 6. We can understand this clearly by realizing that for occult knowledge it is evident that the earth is not only what geologist describe. Geologist conceive the earth's components as being similar to the skeleton of man. Yet the spiritual also belongs to our earth whose aura has been permeated by Christ. During the day's twenty four hours this earth sleeps and is awake just as we are. We most familiarize ourselves with the fact that the state of wakefulness on earth occurs during winter, and the state of sleep during the summer. The earth spirit is most awake in these twelve or thirteen days from Christmas to the Epiphany." (This lecture is avail online from the Steiner Archive and e.Lib.) If I am reading this correctly, along with Hugh's comment :"It is this time of year (mid November to mid December) when we too may withdraw inwardly and contemplate--filter if you will--the thoughts that come to us from the great beyond. when we too may withdraw inwardly and contemplate--filter if you will--the thoughts that come to us from the great beyond.". This will indeed give the Christmas season and BD prep making something exciting to consider in terms of true meaning and opportunity. In such case, is there a way to consider that winter and summer were used by Steiner in context with his central Europe location at the time of the ag. lectures?, That is, to consider if the effect of "winter" is independent from the weather or specific distance from the sun of a given locality, and more related with the position of the whole earth in relationship to the whole cosmos. (Something also worthwhile considering in this context is the "Pranayana of Gaia", the alternated prana ingestion of the whole earth organism, and not just that of half the world; half the organism). Given the above discussion on the effect of the astros and the implicit "Christ being effect" associated with the Christmas festivities (we celebrate the coming of Christ to earth), it seems to me that the preps should be made according to a sideral calendar and not to the sole effects of the proximity to the Sun. This would mean that preps should be bury at the same time regardless of the hemisphere, is'nt it so? (lets say that 500 should be buryied from October to March instead that from late fall to early spring either you live in Canada or in Australia) Further on this, when I read Peter Proctor recommendations on making preps and his distintictions between the northern and southern hemispheres burying dates, I have always wonder what would be the case if I were living along the equator ??????. Where I live in the tropics, apparently it does not make a lot of difference temperature and light wise weather you are in summer or winter, but I can notice clearly the outgoing character of earth during our summer time and its inwardly character during the winter. Being more death during summer and more alive during the winter. I am in the northern hemisphere, so that I am safe (I can be daring and orthodox at the same time), but I would enjoy your comments on this. Greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 21 22:20:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA13121 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 22:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA05014; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 22:02:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA04924 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 21:59:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.98] (pm3mbr2-166-98.intrepid.net [209.190.166.98]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA14043 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 1999 22:03:07 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 10:08:09 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD: New resource website on seedsaving - Please contribute Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1571 This seems like an excellent resource for seedworkers! Check it out! -AB ========== Dear all, I have just put a website on-line entitled "Seedsaving and Seedsavers Resources" at http://homepage.tinet.ie/~merlyn/seedsaving.html The aim of the site is to provide a "one-stop-shop" of link resources for people like myself who are interested in in-situ agricultural and horticultural plant genetic resources and their preservation and who are looking for easy access on the how & why of seedsaving, on sources (world-wide) for organic, heirloom, open-pollinated and non-GMO seed and plants, on seed-swapping with other gardeners/growers, on crop and varietal information etc. Current headings include: Heirloom and OP varieties: Saving Plant Genetic Resources Botany, Genetics and Horticulture for Seedsavers Trading seeds: Seed Exchanges on the Web Buying heirloom seeds: Non-profit organisations Buying heirloom seeds: Commercial sources Buying organic seeds NGOs and GOs concerned with Plant Genetic Diversity Books for Seedsavers Supplies for Seedsavers The site includes links that I have collected over the past 2 years (with some yet to be incorporated) from the WWW, newsgroups, mailing lists etc. It is under construction (and always will be I guess) and hasn't been fully sorted, checked for dead links, geographical locations, site comments etc. I will work on that as time allows but I felt there was sufficient material now to 'go live'. AND THIS IS WHERE YOU COME IN: If you harbour an interest in these topics I would like to ask you to take a look at the site and to send me anything that you think should have a place there. This includes: * Good solid information on Plant Genetic Resources (PGR), Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) etc. and NGO/GOs concerned with these matters * Your favourite supplier of organic/OP/non-GMO seed, particularly small, family-run or cooperative set-ups or non-profit organisations; WWW Bulletin Bords for seed swaps etc.; Suppliers need not have a website or e-mail, I will also incorporate addresses, Tel./Fax # where there is no webpage. * Your own website listing HAVE/WANTED seeds * Good books on the subject * Suppliers of equipment for seedsavers * Anything else that you think may be of interest. * Any criticism in terms of site content, layout etc. that you may have. Obviously if you could incorporate a link to that site in your own that would be much appreciated. I would also like to stress that this site is an individual effort by a keen gardener (myself). It is non-commercial and will not contain advertising. I have no connection whatsoever with any of the seed merchants (except I have bought of some of them) and will not profit in any way from this site, except for the satisfaction it gives me to see that more and more people are becoming aware of the genetic erosion in our food crops and are doing something about it. BTW Future projects include an unofficial Irish Sustainable Agriculture site and a Permaculture site. Thanks a lot and Happy gardening! Ute Bohnsack -- Dipl.-Ing. TU Landschafts- und Freiraumplanung Ute Bohnsack Sailchearnach Clogher Kilfenora Co. Clare Ireland mailto:sustag@tinet.ie EN-DE-EN Naturschutz, Landschaftsplanung, Landwirtschaft http://www.atril.com/bin/directory.dll/1546 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 22 16:09:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19710 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 16:09:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09775; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09331 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:46:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.55] (pm3mbr1-166-55.intrepid.net [209.190.166.55]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20652 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:49:49 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 03:54:49 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Clay Particle Sprays to be demoed at Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1572 Not horn clay by a long shot, but particles of kaolin clay sprayed on fruit trees (and other crops!) create a thin white barrier that repels insect pests, measurably enhances photosynthesis, and promotes better utilization of water by the plants themselves. This commercial product (avail. throughout the USA in Y2K) does all of this and more at a price comparable to a typical pesticide application. Gary Puterka, the USDA research scientist who has pioneered this research will be speaking at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference October 1 of this year (as he did in 1997) and will give a demonstration on how to use common orchard spraying equipment to apply a thin coat of kaolin clay particles over leaves, stems and trunk of fruit trees. An excellent write up with photos on the use of clay sprays can be found at http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/nov98/film1198.htm Note: While not an approved use, it has been discovered by organic farmers that this clay spray is probably the only true 'cure' for flea beetle problems on egg plant. More information on the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming conference is available at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf -Allan Balliett csa@claymont.org From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 22 16:44:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20031 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 16:44:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11257; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 16:25:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11173 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 16:23:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp249.cy-net.net [208.21.195.58]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23978 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:27:12 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEECB1.46F6D2A0@FLYLO>; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:16:15 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEECB1.46F6D2A0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Clay Particle Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:14:21 -0500 Encoding: 14 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1573 I haven't checked BD NOW archives yet but didn't/doesn't Ferdy use some sort of kaolin and manure swab on all his fruit tree trunks also? Sorry, I've been unattentive last day or so, watching the Corpus Christi weather patterns emerge as Bret hits the shoreline. I have an idiot uncle who has decided he wouldn't leave for this one. Our farmstead isn't that close to the action but we still could get heavy winds and rains by Monday, though. Right now, the wind has been shifting, can't make up it's mind. Blows from the East most of the time, then it'll change and blow in from the South awhile. Walk outside and it seems like you have to take 3 big breaths just to get one breath. weird. martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 22 18:47:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21121 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:47:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16345; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:30:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16149 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts3-33.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.203.97]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA01717 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <003d01beeced$ee165d80$45cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <01BEECB1.46F6D2A0@FLYLO> Subject: Re: Clay Particle Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:44:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1574 Martha: The clay/manure formula you mention that Ferdy talks of is one of many variations on Ehrenfeid Pfeiffer's "Tree Paste," which has been in use in BD orchards for many years. Manure, clay, some form of silica [Ferdy uses waterglass, I use very fine sand; we both use equisetum tea in addition], BD#500. Whatever the specific formula, it's painted or sprayed on the trees, usually in late winter. Smothers insect pupae, heals wounds, and fertilizes the trunk and large limbs which are, Steiner says, the uplifted soil upon which the leafy, fruiting branches grow. Good stuff, tree paste! Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: Martha Wells To: Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 1:14 PM Subject: RE: Clay Particle > I haven't checked BD NOW archives yet but didn't/doesn't Ferdy use some > sort of kaolin and manure swab on all his fruit tree trunks also? > Sorry, I've been unattentive last day or so, watching the Corpus Christi > weather patterns emerge as Bret hits the shoreline. I have an idiot uncle > who has decided he wouldn't leave for this one. > Our farmstead isn't that close to the action but we still could get heavy > winds and rains by Monday, though. Right now, the wind has been shifting, > can't make up it's mind. Blows from the East most of the time, then it'll > change and blow in from the South awhile. Walk outside and it seems like > you have to take 3 big breaths just to get one breath. weird. > > martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 22 18:58:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21224 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:58:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16778; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:41:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16718 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:39:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.55] (pm3mbr1-166-50.intrepid.net [209.190.166.50]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA10798 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:43:13 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BEECB1.46F6D2A0@FLYLO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 06:47:23 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: RE: Clay Particle Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1575 >I haven't checked BD NOW archives yet but didn't/doesn't Ferdy use some >sort of kaolin and manure swab on all his fruit tree trunks also? > Sorry, I've been unattentive last day or so, watching the Corpus Christi >weather patterns emerge as Bret hits the shoreline. I have an idiot uncle >who has decided he wouldn't leave for this one. >Our farmstead isn't that close to the action but we still could get heavy >winds and rains by Monday, though. Right now, the wind has been shifting, >can't make up it's mind. Blows from the East most of the time, then it'll >change and blow in from the South awhile. Walk outside and it seems like >you have to take 3 big breaths just to get one breath. weird. > >martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) >http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ I assume your are speaking of tree paste, a BD way of 'extending the earth to the crown of the tree.' I hope someone else has time to talk aobut this in more detail. In this area, some orchardists are re-investigating white washing tree trunks as a 'cure' for apple scab. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 22 19:01:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21284 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 19:01:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16976; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:44:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16789 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:41:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.55] (pm3mbr1-166-50.intrepid.net [209.190.166.50]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA10948 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:44:31 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003d01beeced$ee165d80$45cb6cce@netacc.net> References: <01BEECB1.46F6D2A0@FLYLO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 06:49:44 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Clay Particle Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1576 >Martha: > >The clay/manure formula you mention that Ferdy talks of is one of many >variations on Ehrenfeid Pfeiffer's "Tree Paste," which has been in use in BD >orchards for many years. Manure, clay, some form of silica [Ferdy uses >waterglass, I use very fine sand; we both use equisetum tea in addition], >BD#500. Whatever the specific formula, it's painted or sprayed on the >trees, usually in late winter. Smothers insect pupae, heals wounds, and >fertilizes the trunk and large limbs which are, Steiner says, the uplifted >soil upon which the leafy, fruiting branches grow. Good stuff, tree paste! > >Woody Thanks, Woody - Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 22 19:01:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21292 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 19:01:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17007; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16864 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.55] (pm3mbr1-166-50.intrepid.net [209.190.166.50]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA11199 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:46:16 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003d01beeced$ee165d80$45cb6cce@netacc.net> References: <01BEECB1.46F6D2A0@FLYLO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 06:51:29 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Clay Particle Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1577 It should be noted that when you talk to one of these USDA scientists about the success they are having with the clay particle sprays, they admit that they cannot fully account for all the measurable gain they are experiencing. For example, unirrigated but clay sprayed fruit trees have performed in this drought as well as irrigated but not clay sprayed fruit trees. (This is happening in test plots.) -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 23 09:55:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01262 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19882; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:28:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19750 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:25:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hOWBa05141 (8029) for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:27:59 EDT Subject: Re: Fellowhip Community N.Y. To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1578 Dear Gwenda, Call 914 356-8494 between 2:30 and 6:00 PM EST and ask to speak with Ann Scharff, Judith Brockway, Miriam Karnow, or Karen Hesse. They will be able to send you info on Fellowship and also arrange a visit. This place is definitely worthwhile visiting, especially if you are interested in sage lifestyles. Christine Murphy From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 23 12:28:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04297 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:28:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01674; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:08:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mda.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01586 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.126.245]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990823161525.BAOA2529197.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 04:15:25 +1200 Message-ID: <37C17349.E89@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 04:14:01 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Horn clay/heliopause Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1579 Hugh wrote > Quite right, Glen, and good point. As my kiwi friend, Simon Reeves, insists > you need to celebrate Christmas, the festival of lights, in June down > under. I don't have the answer for this, but it is clear there's a > difference going on south of the equator. Well, the Chinese and Indians > have a different astrology, and so did the Aztecs and Incas. All were based > on empirical observation, with the Aztecs being as sophisticated as any. > Any ideas? > I do not have a fully worked up model of the zodiac for the southern hemisphere, however I am in no doubt we must work with the season as they present themselves to us in our environment. How can it be any other way. The zodiac influences show themselves in a different way here. eg Aries people in the Sth (autumn) appear to have internalised the self centred outward push often found outlined in Astrology books, while Libras are often very assertive and outwardly initiating ( spring) here, with fewer social graces than one might expect. > (Something also worthwhile considering in this context is the "Pranayana of > Gaia", the alternated prana ingestion of the whole earth organism, and not just that of half the world; half the organism). This is a nice picture, That while the Earth is inbreathing and outbreathing in one hemisphere, it is the opposite in the other. This sets up a pulse motion like a flowform, or the rhythmic sharing of breath in tantric practises. Obviously the north and south are part of a united pair locked in a dynamic interplay and both are needed and equally impotant for the life of the whole. It is just unfortunate the medievil Astrological association of the zodiac to the seasons does not hold true for the southern hemisphere and therefore its usefulness as an archetypal metaphor is one of those things that needed to be reviewed back in the 17th century, when we began to live more consciously with the souther hemisphere. > I have always > wonder what would be the case if I were living along the equator ??????. Wet and dry become the Winter and Summer of the tropics as I understand it. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 23 15:45:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10786 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:44:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA17083; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:19:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16858 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.37] ("port 2049"@[148.233.78.37]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FGX0069WOVNE1@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:59:56 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 09:37:06 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Two articles from John Priestly from News Leaf In-reply-to: <00e601beead6$c3046a60$5e431ccb@cherylke> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id PAA16867 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1580 > >from Cheryl Kemp > >BioDynamic Farming & Gardening Assoc in Australia Inc. Dear Cheryl: Many thanks for this articles, they are of great value to me. The organic and the BD methods and tradition basically comes from temperate climates, so that I find the info coming from Australia (ie. Mollison, Podolinsky, Yeomans and now Priestly) of great value given the similarity with environmental conditions in Mexico. Both the Priestly articles are packed with info and left me with a good deal of questions that, if you allow, I will put together and ask later. Warm greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 23 18:20:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA13981 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:20:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA29390; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:01:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA29025 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:59:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:07:30 -0400 Message-ID: From: Kirsten Saylor To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: 12th Southeast Biodynamic Conference Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:07:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1581 Where is it taking place? Which city? Thanks, kirsten -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Lovel [mailto:uai@stc.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 11:52 AM To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: 12th Southeast Biodynamic Conference Union Agricultural Institute Presents The Twelfth Annual Southeast Biodynamic Conference September 3, 4, and 5. (friday, saturday and sunday). meals and camping provided, and lots of interesting presentations. $200. See below for speakers and programs. Also Thursday: An in depth workshop from 8 a.m. to 9 p.m. with Greg Willis of Agri-Synthesis, Hugh Lovel, Lorraine Cahill and Darek Trowbridge featuring: (morning) Defining biodynamics general techniques How to get started Stirring and spraying commercially What are the preps? Using ALL the preps including horn clay Composting Cover cropping (afternoon) Advanced biodynamic viticulture (trademarked, Agri-Synthesis) Junk science vs. results biocomplexity vs. biodiversity four seasons planning controlling diseases and insects improving and increasing yield Flavor crafting The 100 point grape Cost/benefit analysis Biodynamic certification The New Biodynamics (trademarked Agri-Synthesis) Horn Clay Horn Basalt Horn Sulfur The New Barrel Compost Sequencing and subsequencing Field Broadcasting (Cosmic Pipes) (evening) Open forum: General discussion, Questions and Answers, Wrap-up. Cost of Intensive Workshop $175 advance registration, $200 at the gate. Mail checks to UAI, 8475 Dockery Road, Blairsville, GA 30512. Phone for directions: 706 745 6056. THE TWELFTH ANNUAL SOUTHEAST BIODYNAMIC CONFERENCE. Come and find out about some of the most exciting new developments in Biodynamic Agriculture-- *Greg Willis, Horn Clay (brings Biodynamics to a whole new level of effectiveness in terms of both quality and yield) *Lorraine (Rainey) Cahill, Rain, Rain, Rain (combining treatment at a distance (aka radionics) with sequential spraying, Lorraine has been extraordinarily succesful in making rain) *Bob Luzader, Dowsing and Healing at a Distance (gives insight into dowsing, prayer, healing and the realities of spiritual forces in personal health as well as agriculture) *Hugh Lovel, Biodynamics and Field Broadcasting (reveals the fruits of nearly fifteen years research of experimentation with field broadcasters (aka cosmic pipes) and their ease and effectiveness in achieving top BD results) *Jeff Poppen, The Agriculture Course (has long moderated reading and in-depth discussions of Rudolf Steiner's Agriculture Course, the seed impulse and wellspring of insights for BD agriculture) *Darek Trowbridge, Biodynamic Wine (a third generation California wine maker wedding biodynamics with this very special kind of farming--viticulture) *Lee McWhorter, Biodynamic Compost (a down-to-earth doer from down-to-earth Josephine Porter Institute, home of BD prep making, assistant to Hugh Courtney, JPI Director) * Harvey Lisle, Forces and Insects (last in this list but definitely not least, dean and one of the most important innovators of American Biodynamics; over forty years an evolutionary pioneer in biodynamic agriculture) Food, fun and much more. Panel Discussions too. If you've been here before, come see the crops THIS year! Something(s) is happening in biodynamic agriculture in this 75th anniversary year. Friday: Greg Willis, Horn Clay; Harvey Lisle, Working with BD Forces for Insect Control; Hugh Lovel, Making 504; Lorraine (Rainey) Cahill, Radionic Sequential Prep Treatments and Rain; Darek Trowbridge, Biodynamic Viticulture; Jeff Poppen, Reading the Agriculture Course, Part I. Saturday: Lee McWhorter, BD Composting; Bob Luzader, Dowsing, Prayer and Healing at a Distance; Hugh Lovel, Seeing the signs of Balancing/Harmonizing, and Field Broadcasting with all of the BD Preps; Greg Willis, The Effects of GMO's on a Field, and Remediation; (Saturday Evening) Panel Discussion: with Greg Willis, Darek Trowbridge, Hugh Lovel, Harvey Lisle, Lee McWhorter Sunday: Jeff Poppen, Reading the Agriculture Course, Part II; Panel Discussion with Harvey Lisle, Hugh Lovel, Lorraine Cahill, Jeff Poppen, Bob Luzader: What's Right (and wrong) with Biodynamic Agriculture Today?" Attachment converted: Warbucks:FunBus.gif (GIFf/JVWR) (0000CECA) ***** Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 23 18:22:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14058 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:22:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA29936; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fep9.mail.ozemail.net (fep9.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.103]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29234 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:01:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (slmlb50p60.ozemail.com.au [210.84.141.188]) by fep9.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA21412 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:04:26 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <000701beedb2$1c9c00a0$bc8d54d2@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: References: Subject: Re: Fellowhip Community N.Y. Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 07:54:42 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1582 Dear Christine - wonderful information. I have spoken to Judith, she is sending information and I am going to stay there for a few days. thanks so much - Gwenda ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, 23 August 1999 11:27 Subject: Re: Fellowhip Community N.Y. > Dear Gwenda, > Call 914 356-8494 between 2:30 and 6:00 PM EST and ask to speak with Ann > Scharff, Judith Brockway, Miriam Karnow, or Karen Hesse. They will be able to > send you info on Fellowship and also arrange a visit. > This place is definitely worthwhile visiting, especially if you are > interested in sage lifestyles. > Christine Murphy > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 23 18:41:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14349 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA01615; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:22:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA01339 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip046.computer.net [140.186.252.46]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA27374 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:22:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:21:44 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: August 22, 1999 - August 28, 1999 Message-ID: <4DED3D61BA9D0F3C852567D6007AD2FF.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id SAA01340 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1583 Calendar of the Soul [August 22, 1999 - August 28, 1999] Twenty-first Week (August 25-31) I feel strange power, bearing fruit And gaining strength to give myself to me. I sense the seed maturing And expectation, light-filled, weaving Within me on my selfhood's power. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Ich fühl fruchtend fremde Macht Sich stärkend mir mich selbst verleihn, Den Keim empfind ich reifend Und Ahnung lichtvoll weben Im Innern an der Selbstheit Macht. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+21 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 23 21:25:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17656 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:25:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA10493; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:02:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA07110 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:04:24 -0400 (EDT) From: HMSTDFRMS@aol.com Received: from HMSTDFRMS@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hPNDa13745 (301) for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:06:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:06:45 EDT Subject: Re: Bindweed advice To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1584 We're hopeful that someone on this list may be able to offer us some advice for a serious bindweed problem on our farm. The bindweed is primarily located in one three acre field which we want to use in our vegetable crop rotation. After discussing the problem with several area organic farmers, this summer we have left the field fallow and intensively cutivated it with a Perfecta II every seven to ten days. About two weeks ago we cover cropped it with sudex. The intent was to turn over (without breaking) the bindweed roots and allow them to dry (a good summer for this experiment!), and then smother anything that was left with a heavy cover crop. The experiment appears to be a dismal failure. While we may have weakened the bindweed, it is still quite strong. Has anyone had any experience with this weed, or any other theories that we might consider? We are now at the point where our fellow organic farmers are suggesting we use the Round-up bottle!! Any suggestions? Linda Homestead Farms From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 23 21:25:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17664 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:25:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA10552; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:02:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA07900 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:19:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.27] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.27]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FGY0005220AV8@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:44:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:47:06 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Horn clay/heliopause In-reply-to: <37C17349.E89@xtra.co.nz> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id UAA07901 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1585 >> I have always >> wonder what would be the case if I were living along the equator ??????. > >Wet and dry become the Winter and Summer of the tropics as I understand >it. > Dry is winter and wet is summer "up here" (from your perspective), so that that is not really a good explanation. Is it not really some posibility that Steiner might have talked about a sideral event or actual calendar instead of the seasons ?, who decided and under what rationale that in the southern hemisphere preps should be buryied in reverse fashion than in the north ?. As far as I can see, that was never discussed in the ag lectures. Warm Greetings Mate Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 24 00:52:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA20808 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 00:51:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA21799; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 00:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA21723 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 00:24:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.135.47] (max5-19.stc.net [208.210.133.19]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA19848 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 00:27:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 00:35:14 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: RE: 12th Southeast Biodynamic Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1586 >Where is it taking place? Which city? > >Thanks, kirsten > Kristen, Blairsville, Georgia. For more info call 706 745 6056. Hugh Lovel >-----Original Message----- >From: Hugh Lovel [mailto:uai@stc.net] >Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 11:52 AM >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: 12th Southeast Biodynamic Conference > > > > >Union Agricultural Institute Presents The Twelfth Annual Southeast >Biodynamic Conference September 3, 4, and 5. (friday, saturday and sunday). > >meals and camping provided, and lots of interesting presentations. $200. >See below for speakers and programs. > > >Also Thursday: An in depth workshop from 8 a.m. to 9 p.m. with Greg Willis >of Agri-Synthesis, Hugh Lovel, Lorraine Cahill and Darek Trowbridge >featuring: > >(morning) >Defining biodynamics >general techniques >How to get started >Stirring and spraying commercially >What are the preps? >Using ALL the preps including horn clay >Composting >Cover cropping > >(afternoon) >Advanced biodynamic viticulture (trademarked, Agri-Synthesis) >Junk science vs. results >biocomplexity vs. biodiversity >four seasons planning >controlling diseases and insects >improving and increasing yield >Flavor crafting >The 100 point grape >Cost/benefit analysis >Biodynamic certification >The New Biodynamics (trademarked Agri-Synthesis) >Horn Clay >Horn Basalt >Horn Sulfur >The New Barrel Compost >Sequencing and subsequencing >Field Broadcasting (Cosmic Pipes) > >(evening) >Open forum: General discussion, Questions and Answers, Wrap-up. > >Cost of Intensive Workshop $175 advance registration, $200 at the gate. >Mail checks to UAI, 8475 Dockery Road, Blairsville, GA 30512. Phone for >directions: 706 745 6056. > >THE TWELFTH ANNUAL SOUTHEAST BIODYNAMIC CONFERENCE. > >Come and find out about some of the most exciting new developments in >Biodynamic Agriculture-- > >*Greg Willis, Horn Clay (brings Biodynamics to a whole new level of >effectiveness in terms of both quality and yield) > >*Lorraine (Rainey) Cahill, Rain, Rain, Rain (combining treatment at a >distance (aka radionics) with sequential spraying, Lorraine has been >extraordinarily succesful in making rain) > >*Bob Luzader, Dowsing and Healing at a Distance (gives insight into >dowsing, prayer, healing and the realities of spiritual forces in personal >health as well as agriculture) > >*Hugh Lovel, Biodynamics and Field Broadcasting (reveals the fruits of >nearly fifteen years research of experimentation with field broadcasters >(aka cosmic pipes) and their ease and effectiveness in achieving top BD >results) > >*Jeff Poppen, The Agriculture Course (has long moderated reading and >in-depth discussions of Rudolf Steiner's Agriculture Course, the seed >impulse and wellspring of insights for BD agriculture) > >*Darek Trowbridge, Biodynamic Wine (a third generation California wine >maker wedding biodynamics with this very special kind of >farming--viticulture) > >*Lee McWhorter, Biodynamic Compost (a down-to-earth doer from down-to-earth >Josephine Porter Institute, home of BD prep making, assistant to Hugh >Courtney, JPI Director) > >* Harvey Lisle, Forces and Insects (last in this list but definitely not >least, dean and one of the most important innovators of American >Biodynamics; over forty years an evolutionary pioneer in biodynamic >agriculture) > >Food, fun and much more. Panel Discussions too. If you've been here before, >come see the crops THIS year! Something(s) is happening in biodynamic >agriculture in this 75th anniversary year. > >Friday: Greg Willis, Horn Clay; Harvey Lisle, Working with BD Forces for >Insect Control; Hugh Lovel, Making 504; Lorraine (Rainey) Cahill, Radionic >Sequential Prep Treatments and Rain; Darek Trowbridge, Biodynamic >Viticulture; Jeff Poppen, Reading the Agriculture Course, Part I. > >Saturday: Lee McWhorter, BD Composting; Bob Luzader, Dowsing, Prayer and >Healing at a Distance; Hugh Lovel, Seeing the signs of >Balancing/Harmonizing, and Field Broadcasting with all of the BD Preps; >Greg Willis, The Effects of GMO's on a Field, and Remediation; >(Saturday Evening) Panel Discussion: with Greg Willis, Darek Trowbridge, >Hugh Lovel, Harvey Lisle, Lee McWhorter > >Sunday: Jeff Poppen, Reading the Agriculture Course, Part II; Panel >Discussion with Harvey Lisle, Hugh Lovel, Lorraine Cahill, Jeff Poppen, >Bob Luzader: What's Right (and wrong) with Biodynamic Agriculture >Today?" > >Attachment converted: Warbucks:FunBus.gif (GIFf/JVWR) (0000CECA) > > >***** > > > >Hugh Lovel >8475 Dockery Road >Blairsville, Georgia 30512 ***** Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 24 03:38:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA22488 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 03:38:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA27108; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 03:11:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA27056 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 03:08:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-92.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.92]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA08944 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:11:49 +1000 Message-ID: <003401beedff$abef9080$5c431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Horn clay/heliopause Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:18:55 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1587 -----Original Message----- From: Guillermo Romero To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, 24 August 1999 11:09 am Subject: Re: Horn clay/heliopause > >>> I have always >>> wonder what would be the case if I were living along the equator ??????. >> >>Wet and dry become the Winter and Summer of the tropics as I understand >>it. >> > >Dry is winter and wet is summer "up here" (from your perspective), so that that is not really a good explanation. Is it not really some posibility that Steiner might have talked about a sideral event or actual calendar instead of the seasons ?, who decided and under what rationale that in the southern hemisphere preps should be buryied in reverse fashion than in the north ?. As far as I can see, that was never discussed in the ag lectures. > >Warm Greetings Mate > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > Dear Guillermo, In Northern Tropical Australia we bury as Glen says, in the dry season. Two reasons: 1: IF 500 was buried in the wet, then it would get too soggy. 2. In the Agriculture Lectures Steiner speaks of the winter as the time that the cosmic forces go deep into the earth, the crystallising winter forces. And the 500 has to be developed " when the earth is most inwardly active". That is why we bury the 500 in the winter in the southern hemisphere. See page 73 top in Agriculture Lectures Gardner version. Peter Proctor has also found great success with burying the horns in the dry season in India, and finds that they only need about 3 months underground before they are ready. But the earth above must be kept damp for them to turn. If left any longer the earthworms devour the whole lot. I guess you could say that the earth is most inwardly active in the tropical areas over the dry period. Obviously above the earth is very active in the rainy season. (Moist, earthly forces rising upwards). In Northern Australia around Darwin, wild Buffalo horns are used, as they are easily available. We have a member, Rachel Morgan, who works with the aboriginal people and has made the preps with organs from the buffalo too. But we do send her up the prep flowers from the more temperate areas. But I am sure we could find some equivalent wild flowers. Peter Proctor has experimented with using the Onga-Onga stinging nettle in NZ with great success. Each country seems to have a wild nettle of its own that works the same as the Urtica Dioica. This is another area of Biodynamics awaiting further research. Kind regards, Cheryl Kemp Education & Advisory Coordinator Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 24 07:10:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA24083 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 07:10:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA02158; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 06:45:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA01960 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 06:40:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.161.154]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990824104655.NTIM2478302.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:46:55 +1200 Message-ID: <37C277EB.6486@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:46:03 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: NZ Nettle prep Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1588 > Peter Proctor has > experimented with using the Onga-Onga stinging nettle in NZ with great > success. Cheryl In what way has PP been able to verify 'his great success'? IS this that it composted to a black humus mass? Or that he has determined the actual effect of 504 and found some way of verifying this same effect from NZ nettle? Or is this just a personal feeling thing like the 500 and fish fert days? Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 24 11:53:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27690 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:53:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16769; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:26:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16505 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:23:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.84] (pm3mbr5-166-209.intrepid.net [209.190.166.209]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA22001 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:26:35 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 23:06:18 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Agriculture in Scriptures Discussion Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1589 Apologies for cross posting...... Some of us on SANET are going to hold an off-list discussion of what the scriptures of different religions have to say about agriculture. If you would like to join us, please send me an e-mail off list and I'll add your name to the mailings. Thanks to those who have already responded This conversation will be limited to August 26-Sept. 1, so that we don't get a whole new listserv! You do not have to be a religious scholar by any stretch of the imagination (I'm sure not) and you may simply listen although I hope everyone will contribute at least a little something. Any scripture from any religion is fair game. If your religion doesn't have scriptures, stories are welcome. We will simply be comparing what the different writings and stories say, NOT in any way discussing which is better or more true or more worthy. The more the merrier, everyone is welcome who is willing to follow the basic ground rules of courtesy, respect, and non-judgmental listening. Hoping many will join us and looking forward to it, Victoria ************************************* Victoria Mundy Dept. of Agronomy N106R Ag. Sci. North, UK Lexington, KY 40546-0091 606/257-2103 ************************************* To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 24 11:53:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27684 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:53:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16618; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16050 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:17:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.90] ("port 2051"@[148.233.78.90]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FGZ00ITU7S8I5@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:45:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:54:18 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Horn clay/heliopause In-reply-to: <003401beedff$abef9080$5c431ccb@cherylke> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA16052 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1590 Dear Cheryl: Thanks for your reply. The wetness issue is a good argument indeed, but what I was wondering in context with Steiner saying that "The earth spirit is most awake in these twelve or thirteen days from Christmas to the Epiphany" ("Christ in Relation to Lucifer and Ahriman (may 18, 1915)), is wether there is a posibility that the "winter" mentioned in p73 of the Agriculture lectures refered to the actual calendar (that happened to be equivalet to winter in Koberwitz) instead than to the distance from the sun of a given earth locality. Asked another way; why don't the southern hemisphere celebrates Christmas on June 24 ? Yet another way to put it: In determining the aliveness of earth, doesn't the "Christ impulse" has something to do ? and, Does the "Christ impulse" changes with the seasons between hemispheres ? Has anyone studied the effects of the southern preps prepared in different ways-seasons, or compared an Australian 500 to one made in Europe ? (let say measuring the vitality with a radonic device, or its effect on field trials). Methodologicaly it would be very hard to measure things as the quality and the isolated effects of the preps. It might very well be that if we carry out the studies, no diference will be observed. That is why I asked on what grounds someone, sometime, decided that (ie) 500 should be buryied during the Australian winter ? It seems to me that with a cosmic perspective in mind, the distance from the sun of a given earth locality must have a negligible effect. And we are talking indeed about the cosmic forces (distant and close planets) working within the preps. It seems to me that something else must be considered, configurations, rythms, etc. I do not know what myself and that is why I am asking so many questions. Warm greetings >Dear Guillermo, >In Northern Tropical Australia we bury as Glen says, in the dry season. Two >reasons: >1: IF 500 was buried in the wet, then it would get too soggy. >2. In the Agriculture Lectures Steiner speaks of the winter as the time that >the cosmic forces go deep into the earth, the crystallising winter forces. >And the 500 has to be developed " when the earth is most inwardly active". >That is why we bury the 500 in the winter in the southern hemisphere. See >page 73 top in Agriculture Lectures Gardner version. >Peter Proctor has also found great success with burying the horns in the dry >season in India, and finds that they only need about 3 months underground >before they are ready. But the earth above must be kept damp for them to >turn. If left any longer the earthworms devour the whole lot. I guess you >could say that the earth is most inwardly active in the tropical areas over >the dry period. Obviously above the earth is very active in the rainy >season. (Moist, earthly forces rising upwards). > >In Northern Australia around Darwin, wild Buffalo horns are used, as they >are easily available. We have a member, Rachel Morgan, who works with the >aboriginal people and has made the preps with organs from the buffalo too. >But we do send her up the prep flowers from the more temperate areas. But I >am sure we could find some equivalent wild flowers. Peter Proctor has >experimented with using the Onga-Onga stinging nettle in NZ with great >success. Each country seems to have a wild nettle of its own that works the >same as the Urtica Dioica. This is another area of Biodynamics awaiting >further research. >Kind regards, >Cheryl Kemp >Education & Advisory Coordinator >Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. >of Australia Inc. >P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) >627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) >Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 24 11:55:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27739 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:55:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17556; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17496 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.84] (pm3mbr5-166-209.intrepid.net [209.190.166.209]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA24271 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:36:48 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 23:41:55 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD: From Ferdinand COnference Dates Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA17498 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1591 Final dates of various conferences >From September 28th, 1999 until October 13th, 1999 THE SEVEN I AMs & BD PREPARATIONS >From Sept. 28th ñ Sept. 30th and from Oct. 5th ñ Oct. 7th MAGICAL STRING AND EVENING FIRE SIDE TALK October 1st at 7:30PM ñ MidnightÖ. MAGICAL STRING CONCERT October 2nd at 3:00 ñ 5:00PM BLESSING OF THE PREPARATIONS October 3rd at 10:00 ñ 12:00 noon SMALL SCALE FOREST REGENERATION WORKSHOP Starting 8:00PM October 8th with an evening lecture ending October 10th, 5:30PM INTENSIVE BIO-DYNAMIC FORESTRY WORKSHOP October 11th ñ October 13th noon. AT C-DAR HOUSE, BRACKENDALE, B.C. CANADA. THE SEVEN I AMs & THE SEVEN PREPARATIONS (A BD Preparation making course that is to lead the participant into a deeper understanding of the spiritual background of the Bio-Dynamic Preparations). With preparation making sessions of Preparations # 502, 503, 505, 506 and daily hands-on experience (Preparation making, compost inocculating, spraying of preparations etc.) September 28th ñ September 30th, AND FROM October 5th ñ October 7th, 1999 Presenters: Philip Harmon, Anna von Druska, Ferdinand Vondruska, Thomas Link, Robert Gallagher MAGICAL STRING EVENING MUSIC AND FIRESIDE DREAM TALK (for those who attended the Seven I am & Preparation workshop) October 1st, 1999, AT ABOUT 7:30pm. The Bards and Elves, the Fauns and Druids will meet around the fire and sip sleepy fall and winter wineÖ Presenters: Pam and Philip Boulding, Seattle MICHAELMAS CELEBRATION MAGICAL STRING CONCERT, Saturday, October 2nd, 1999 ñ at 3 - 5PM (a two hour concert; intermission - coffee and cake will be served) A fundraising even for C-Dar World Forest Foundation with P. & P. Boulding BLESSING OF THE PREPARATIONS WITH REV. PHILIP HARMON, Waianae, Hawaii Sunday, October 3rd, 1999, 10AM By Invitation: Pot Luck Lunch Musically supported by Pam & Philip Boulding SMALL SCALE FOREST REGENERATION Conference & Workshop Lectures, discussions, talk and some hands-on experience. Studies of the Ethers, Etherial map, the Elemental world, the application of BD Preparations in and around the forest. Forest Composts, spraying of preparations in the forest etc. October 8th, 1999 (7:00PM Lecture by F. Vondruska) October 9th & 10th, 1999 with Thomas Link, Chris Runnals, Ferdinand Vondruska & Robert Gallagher And continues as an: INTENSIVE BIO-DYNAMIC FORESTRY WORKSHOP IN THE FORESTS OF C-DAR HOUSE, Brackendale, Upper Cheakamus. B.C. This course is based on Course #5 ñ but can be taken seperately as well. October 11th ñ October 13th, 1999 with Thomas Link, Robert Gallagher, Ferdinand Vondruska C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation; a fully registered Canadian charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 24 13:01:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28756 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:01:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23267; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:34:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23028 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:31:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.90] ("port 2057"@[148.233.78.90]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FGZ00K06B94NQ@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:00:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:09:16 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Agriculture in Scriptures Discussion In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA23029 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1592 >Apologies for cross posting...... > >Some of us on SANET are going to hold an off-list discussion of what the >scriptures of different religions have to say about agriculture. If you >would like to join us, please send me an e-mail off list and I'll add your >name to the mailings. Thanks to those who have already responded > >This conversation will be limited to August 26-Sept. 1, so that we don't >get a whole new listserv! > >You do not have to be a religious scholar by any stretch of the imagination >(I'm sure not) and you may simply listen although I hope everyone will >contribute at least a little something. Any scripture from any religion is >fair game. If your religion doesn't have scriptures, stories are welcome. > >We will simply be comparing what the different writings and stories say, >NOT in any way discussing which is better or more true or more worthy. The >more the merrier, everyone is welcome who is willing to follow the basic >ground rules of courtesy, respect, and non-judgmental listening. > >Hoping many will join us and looking forward to it, >Victoria >************************************* >Victoria Mundy >Dept. of Agronomy >N106R Ag. Sci. North, UK >Lexington, KY 40546-0091 >606/257-2103 >************************************* > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail There is no email address for Victoria Mundy to subscribe in this post ¡¡¡¡¡ Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 24 17:16:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03764 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:16:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12717; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:44:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA12342 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:41:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.84] (pm3mbr2-166-68.intrepid.net [209.190.166.68]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22952 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:44:42 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 04:49:47 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Agriculture in Scriptures Discussion Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id QAA12343 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1593 Respond to: Victoria Mundy >Apologies for cross posting...... > >Some of us on SANET are going to hold an off-list discussion of what the >scriptures of different religions have to say about agriculture. If you >would like to join us, please send me an e-mail off list and I'll add your >name to the mailings. Thanks to those who have already responded > >This conversation will be limited to August 26-Sept. 1, so that we don't >get a whole new listserv! > >You do not have to be a religious scholar by any stretch of the imagination >(I'm sure not) and you may simply listen although I hope everyone will >contribute at least a little something. Any scripture from any religion is >fair game. If your religion doesn't have scriptures, stories are welcome. > >We will simply be comparing what the different writings and stories say, >NOT in any way discussing which is better or more true or more worthy. The >more the merrier, everyone is welcome who is willing to follow the basic >ground rules of courtesy, respect, and non-judgmental listening. > >Hoping many will join us and looking forward to it, >Victoria >************************************* >Victoria Mundy >Dept. of Agronomy >N106R Ag. Sci. North, UK >Lexington, KY 40546-0091 >606/257-2103 >************************************* > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail There is no email address for Victoria Mundy to subscribe in this post ¡¡¡¡¡ Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 24 17:50:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05591 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14421; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:08:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14284 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.226]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990824211312.RSBC2478302.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:13:12 +1200 Message-ID: <37C30A8D.2FBB@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:12:53 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: preps and the seasons Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1594 GR wrote > That is why I asked on what grounds someone, sometime, decided that (ie) 500 should be buryied > during the Australian winter ? GR In the diagram I have posted at the following address http://business.fortunecity.com/huntsman/39/creations.htm you can see an attempt at indicating the layers of our creation. The Cosmic influences which come to the Earth are influenced by the nature of the layers below them. We have several significant indicators from RS. There are those passages where he suggests that Saturn is stronger when it is hot and the Moon is stronger when it is wet. Not only is the Summer Sun active in 501 but also the activity of Saturn. Same with 500 it is not only the winter Sun but also the Moon which give its strengthening of the etheric body. Do we not plant when the climate allows ie Spring rather than on the best planetary phenomena? Climate is the mediator of how the Earth experiences the Cosmos and no more so than in agriculture. Christian festivals have been developed upon the ancient pagan seasonal festivals. Ultimately we are beings of the Earth and not free of the Earth rhythms (or the planetary movements). Probably, as the horn clay work is showing we could have winter 501 Summer 501, 12 mth 501 etc. An examination of how the different horn clays work would give us an indication of how these other 501s would work as well. Each would have their individual character and useful for different applications. Hence we can see the relationship of the seasons to the preps. Maybe we could discuss the various horn clays a little more and establish how the seasons do change a particular prep. Any thoughts Hugh? Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 24 23:00:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA14806 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:00:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03169; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03008 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:34:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d143.infoserve.net [199.175.157.143]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA13543 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 19:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <005901beeea3$77d23f60$a19dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Horn clay/heliopause Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 19:02:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1595 Some people in S. Hem. have suggested that you celebrate 2 festivals at the same time. The outer one and an inner one. eg. Christmas in Dec. inwardly, but, outwardly St. John's. I experienced Christmastide in NZ and can tell you it does not feel very Christmassy outwardly. However, Jesus was born at that time of year, during when the Earth is most Spiritually awake, that means for the WHOLE EARTH. Taking this into account, I believe that certain festivals, eg. Christmas should be celebrated at the same time no matter where you live. Easter, the time when Christ entered into the Earth and Jesus died is calculated from celestial events. That perhaps should also remain. Spring and Fall festivals can be switched around appropiately. Having said that, then, it seems to contradict possibably the burying of 500/501. Intuitively, it seems to me that it should be reversed for the S. Hem. and the amount of burial time depends on the climate. regards, Michael -----Original Message----- From: Guillermo Romero To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 8:32 AM Subject: Re: Horn clay/heliopause >Dear Cheryl: > >Thanks for your reply. The wetness issue is a good argument indeed, but what I was wondering in context with Steiner saying that "The earth spirit is most awake in these twelve or thirteen days from Christmas to the Epiphany" ("Christ in Relation to Lucifer and Ahriman (may 18, 1915)), is wether there is a posibility that the "winter" mentioned in p73 of the Agriculture lectures refered to the actual calendar (that happened to be equivalet to winter in Koberwitz) instead than to the distance from the sun of a given earth locality. Asked another way; why don't the southern hemisphere celebrates Christmas on June 24 ? > >Yet another way to put it: In determining the aliveness of earth, doesn't the "Christ impulse" has something to do ? and, Does the "Christ impulse" changes with the seasons between hemispheres ? > >Has anyone studied the effects of the southern preps prepared in different ways-seasons, or compared an Australian 500 to one made in Europe ? (let say measuring the vitality with a radonic device, or its effect on field trials). > >Methodologicaly it would be very hard to measure things as the quality and the isolated effects of the preps. It might very well be that if we carry out the studies, no diference will be observed. > >That is why I asked on what grounds someone, sometime, decided that (ie) 500 should be buryied during the Australian winter ? > >It seems to me that with a cosmic perspective in mind, the distance from the sun of a given earth locality must have a negligible effect. And we are talking indeed about the cosmic forces (distant and close planets) working within the preps. It seems to me that something else must be considered, configurations, rythms, etc. I do not know what myself and that is why I am asking so many questions. > >Warm greetings > > >>Dear Guillermo, >>In Northern Tropical Australia we bury as Glen says, in the dry season. Two >>reasons: >>1: IF 500 was buried in the wet, then it would get too soggy. >>2. In the Agriculture Lectures Steiner speaks of the winter as the time that >>the cosmic forces go deep into the earth, the crystallising winter forces. >>And the 500 has to be developed " when the earth is most inwardly active". >>That is why we bury the 500 in the winter in the southern hemisphere. See >>page 73 top in Agriculture Lectures Gardner version. >>Peter Proctor has also found great success with burying the horns in the dry >>season in India, and finds that they only need about 3 months underground >>before they are ready. But the earth above must be kept damp for them to >>turn. If left any longer the earthworms devour the whole lot. I guess you >>could say that the earth is most inwardly active in the tropical areas over >>the dry period. Obviously above the earth is very active in the rainy >>season. (Moist, earthly forces rising upwards). >> >>In Northern Australia around Darwin, wild Buffalo horns are used, as they >>are easily available. We have a member, Rachel Morgan, who works with the >>aboriginal people and has made the preps with organs from the buffalo too. >>But we do send her up the prep flowers from the more temperate areas. But I >>am sure we could find some equivalent wild flowers. Peter Proctor has >>experimented with using the Onga-Onga stinging nettle in NZ with great >>success. Each country seems to have a wild nettle of its own that works the >>same as the Urtica Dioica. This is another area of Biodynamics awaiting >>further research. >>Kind regards, >>Cheryl Kemp >>Education & Advisory Coordinator >>Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. >>of Australia Inc. >>P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) >>627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) >>Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 > > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 25 09:44:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21331 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:44:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26611; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26476 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.243] (pm3mbr3-166-112.intrepid.net [209.190.166.112]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14145 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:28:07 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:30:03 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Agnihotra related Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1596 >From: "Richard & Lisa Powers" >To: >Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:03:59 -0400 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 > >Fran Rosen-Bizberg, long-time Agnihotra teacher and author of several books >such as "I Wish I Had Known" has been receiving messages from >extraterrestrials for some time. The messages address such things as the >upcoming earth changes and how to prepare for them physically, mentally and >spiritually. If you would like to receive emails of these messages, please >reply to this message with your email address in the body of the message. >Thank you. >With love and best wishes to all, >Lisa & Richard Powers >**************************************************************************** >** >* Richard & Lisa Powers >* Visit our website at: http://www.summit.net/home/Agnihotra/ >* Mail: Copperworks, Rt 8 Box 365, Madison VA 22727 >* Ph. 540-948-5463 >* Fax: 540-948-5214 >**************************************************************************** >** > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 25 09:50:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21534 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:50:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26986; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26805 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.010AC9D2@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 9:26:58 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 25 Aug 99 09:30:09 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 25 Aug 99 09:29:56 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:29:49 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Horn clay/heliopause Priority: normal References: <003401beedff$abef9080$5c431ccb@cherylke> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <8B29F232601@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1597 I just wanted to thank Guillermo for bringing up all this in the first place and challenging everyone to really think and understand what's happening. As some of you who are also signed on to the Sanet list serve know, I recently posted a very challenging post (too much so, probably) which was critical of Bible-quoting member because it seems clear to me that she is just repeating dogma rather than really challenging herself to understand it more deeply and giving room for more subtle understandings of the quotes. I am not nearly as gentle and diplomatic as Guillermo always seems to be, and as I might have expected, I just got blasted for being narrow-minded and judgemental myself. Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is that I so appreciate all of you out there who are really *working* with your beliefs, being "scientific" in your spirituality, and not just parroting a bible (in this case the Ag Lectures) and assuming that there is only one understanding which is immediately and universally clear. Cheryl's post made excellent points, Guillermo's post makes excellent points (and this is a conundrum which sloshed around in my brain too when I used to work in the tropics) and I don't know who's correct. What I do know is that I'm very happy there are people like you all to think deeply about it, research it, challenge it, and not take anything for granted. Anita > Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:54:18 -0600 > From: Guillermo Romero > Subject: Re: Horn clay/heliopause > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Reply-to: bdnow@envirolink.org > Dear Cheryl: > > Thanks for your reply. The wetness issue is a good argument indeed, but what I was wondering in context with Steiner saying that "The earth spirit is most awake in these twelve or thirteen days fro> Yet another way to put it: In determining the aliveness of earth, doesn't the "Christ impulse" has something to do ? and, Does the "Christ impulse" changes with the seasons between hemispheres ? > > Has anyone studied the effects of the southern preps prepared in different ways-seasons, or compared an Australian 500 to one made in Europe ? (let say measuring the vitality with a radonic device, o> > Methodologicaly it would be very hard to measure things as the quality and the isolated effects of the preps. It might very well be that if we carry out the studies, no diference will be observed. > > That is why I asked on what grounds someone, sometime, decided that (ie) 500 should be buryied during the Australian winter ? > > It seems to me that with a cosmic perspective in mind, the distance from the sun of a given earth locality must have a negligible effect. And we are talking indeed about the cosmic forces (distant > > Warm greetings > > > >Dear Guillermo, > >In Northern Tropical Australia we bury as Glen says, in the dry season. Two > >reasons: > >1: IF 500 was buried in the wet, then it would get too soggy. > >2. In the Agriculture Lectures Steiner speaks of the winter as the time that > >the cosmic forces go deep into the earth, the crystallising winter forces. > >And the 500 has to be developed " when the earth is most inwardly active". > >That is why we bury the 500 in the winter in the southern hemisphere. See > >page 73 top in Agriculture Lectures Gardner version. > >Peter Proctor has also found great success with burying the horns in the dry > >season in India, and finds that they only need about 3 months underground > >before they are ready. But the earth above must be kept damp for them to > >turn. If left any longer the earthworms devour the whole lot. I guess you > >could say that the earth is most inwardly active in the tropical areas over > >the dry period. Obviously above the earth is very active in the rainy > >season. (Moist, earthly forces rising upwards). > > > >In Northern Australia around Darwin, wild Buffalo horns are used, as they > >are easily available. We have a member, Rachel Morgan, who works with the > >aboriginal people and has made the preps with organs from the buffalo too. > >But we do send her up the prep flowers from the more temperate areas. But I > >am sure we could find some equivalent wild flowers. Peter Proctor has > >experimented with using the Onga-Onga stinging nettle in NZ with great > >success. Each country seems to have a wild nettle of its own that works the > >same as the Urtica Dioica. This is another area of Biodynamics awaiting > >further research. > >Kind regards, > >Cheryl Kemp > >Education & Advisory Coordinator > >Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. > >of Australia Inc. > >P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) > >627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) > >Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 > > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 25 10:12:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21946 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:12:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28286; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zmail.easynet.fr (zmail.easynet.fr [195.114.64.232]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28038 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 10598 invoked from network); 25 Aug 1999 13:54:05 -0000 Received: from mrelay3.easynet.fr (195.114.64.233) by zmail.easynet.fr with QMQP; 25 Aug 1999 13:54:05 -0000 Received: from downer-nat.clients.easynet.fr (HELO mcoderey.downer.fr) (212.11.4.118) by mrelay3.easynet.fr with SMTP; 25 Aug 1999 13:54:04 -0000 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:53:44 +0200 Message-ID: <01BEEF12.02993F40.mcoderey@downer.fr> From: marie coderey To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Agnihotra related Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:53:43 +0200 Organization: downer & company X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1598 please send them on!!!! mcoderey@downer.fr -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett [SMTP:igg@igg.com] Sent: August 25, 1999 03:30 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Agnihotra related >From: "Richard & Lisa Powers" >To: >Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:03:59 -0400 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 > >Fran Rosen-Bizberg, long-time Agnihotra teacher and author of several books >such as "I Wish I Had Known" has been receiving messages from >extraterrestrials for some time. The messages address such things as the >upcoming earth changes and how to prepare for them physically, mentally and >spiritually. If you would like to receive emails of these messages, please >reply to this message with your email address in the body of the message. >Thank you. >With love and best wishes to all, >Lisa & Richard Powers >**************************************************************************** >** >* Richard & Lisa Powers >* Visit our website at: http://www.summit.net/home/Agnihotra/ >* Mail: Copperworks, Rt 8 Box 365, Madison VA 22727 >* Ph. 540-948-5463 >* Fax: 540-948-5214 >**************************************************************************** >** > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 25 10:46:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22548 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:46:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00457; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:27:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00301 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (cust58.nrvmax5.tor1.netrover.com [205.209.27.58]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA23487 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:27:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-From: villager@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: Re: Bindweed advice Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:27:27 -0400 Message-ID: <01beef05$f523ed80$4e15d1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1599 Linda: I also have a partially inherited proliferation of bindweed.My understanding is that it is primarily an indication of compaction/hardpan.[tilling when soil is too moist, possibly too much /and with heavy or innappropriate] equipment Its role seems to be to effectively cover the surface as a prelude to conditions which will ultimately favour a softening or breakup of the soil. This does not generally fit in with the gardeners plans! bcause of the time that it might take. Apparently it stores solar energy in its lengthy root system and just emerges whenever conditions allow, very efficiently, making use of, and harboring every bit of moisture for its growth. It's an awesome mechanism!!! Some have suggested application of vinegar, but the scale of the task seems tooo daunting for me, and would only be a treatment of the effects. My conclusion so far is: to take out of rotation those plots, and make hay...... cultivate/prep/clean and sow oilseed radish thickly, minimizing the sunlight to the BW., and letting the taproots penetrate as they will. Time seeding so that radish will not form seed, but gets large, leafy. This will winterkill, and leave a sheet mulch on the ground which will retard BW till later spring when one may till .Obviously one cannot miss a beat which would allow BW to rear its heads! I would sow covering oats,with clovers, alfalfa,[with its deeper roots],brome,timothy, hairy vetch and /or whatever is a favoured blend in your region for feed ...all at the same time. Cut the oats when the legumes are covering thickly. Otherwise the BW will use the oats to climb on in their appetite for solar storage. At the very least, it's an expensive mulch,but when you consider all the factors of fertility, you see the appropriateness. With its role being assumed by others, the BW should recede in a few years. However, I suspect that when conditions call for its' role again it will reappear. A big factor in its pervasiveness is vigilance in not letting it develop seed! Hope this has been a little help, and not just comiserating!What area are you in? ....sure would like to hear from others too. ........ manfred palmer -----Original Message----- From: HMSTDFRMS@aol.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, August 23, 1999 9:06 PM Subject: Re: Bindweed advice >We're hopeful that someone on this list may be able to offer us some advice >for a serious bindweed problem on our farm. The bindweed is primarily located >in one three acre field which we want to use in our vegetable crop rotation. >After discussing the problem with several area organic farmers, this summer >we have left the field fallow and intensively cutivated it with a Perfecta II >every seven to ten days. About two weeks ago we cover cropped it with sudex. >The intent was to turn over (without breaking) the bindweed roots and allow >them to dry (a good summer for this experiment!), and then smother anything >that was left with a heavy cover crop. >The experiment appears to be a dismal failure. While we may have weakened the >bindweed, it is still quite strong. >Has anyone had any experience with this weed, or any other theories that we >might consider? We are now at the point where our fellow organic farmers are >suggesting we use the Round-up bottle!! Any suggestions? >Linda >Homestead Farms > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 25 11:18:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23309 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:18:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02469; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02358 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:56:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.135.47] (max12-31.stc.net [208.210.136.159]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA10200 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37C30A8D.2FBB@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:06:28 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: preps and the seasons Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1600 >GR wrote > >> That is why I asked on what grounds someone, sometime, decided that (ie) >>500 should be buryied >> during the Australian winter ? > >GR >In the diagram I have posted at the following address > >http://business.fortunecity.com/huntsman/39/creations.htm > >you can see an attempt at indicating the layers of our creation. The >Cosmic influences which come to the Earth are influenced by the nature >of the layers below them. > >We have several significant indicators from RS. There are those passages >where he suggests that Saturn is stronger when it is hot and the Moon is >stronger when it is wet. Not only is the Summer Sun active in 501 but >also the activity of Saturn. Same with 500 it is not only the winter Sun >but also the Moon which give its strengthening of the etheric body. >Do we not plant when the climate allows ie Spring rather than on the >best planetary phenomena? >Climate is the mediator of how the Earth experiences the Cosmos and no >more so than in agriculture. >Christian festivals have been developed upon the ancient pagan seasonal >festivals. Ultimately we are beings of the Earth and not free of the >Earth rhythms (or the planetary movements). >Probably, as the horn clay work is showing we could have winter 501 >Summer 501, 12 mth 501 etc. An examination of how the different horn >clays work would give us an indication of how these other 501s would >work as well. Each would have their individual character and useful for >different applications. Hence we can see the relationship of the seasons >to the preps. Maybe we could discuss the various horn clays a little >more and establish how the seasons do change a particular prep. > >Any thoughts Hugh? > >Glen A Dear Glen, BD Listers, Is there any reason to think that what goes on in the northern hemisphere is happening for the whole entire earth? Try considering this. The way life forces, spiritual forces (ether, astrality, etc.) work is not the same as the physical. In physics the natural tendency is for everything to disperse, and the behavior of physical forces is to trend from high concentration to lower concentration. This is expressed in the second "law" of thermodynamics which essentially says the universe is running down and the differentials from one energy state to another are disappearing so that usable energy is running out. However, living systems defy this "law" and gather to themselves energy, so that with life you have energy moving from lower concentration to higher concentration. You have order arising out of chaos. You have clouds gathering in the moisture in the atmosphere, and you have soybeans going from seed to elaborate growth as a full-blown soybean plant. In terms of the solar system you have dusts and other debris aggregating into planets and, of course, the Sun itself. With life, order arises out of chaos. There is nothing more complex and more ordered in the solar system as the Sun itself. Thus it draws life forces toward itself. Actually it cannot take too much in without giving some off, so what it does is draw forces in around its equatorial region--the plane of the ecliptic--and give these off at its polar regions. But for our purposes here since we are in the plane of the ecliptic we most need to realize that the Sun is drawing in life forces from out beyond Saturn where the life forces are rarified and concentrating them as they are drawn in toward the Sun. This means that when the Sun is above our horizon the life forces are drawn upward from the earth toward the Sun. Likewise when the Sun is below the horizon these forces are drawn, again toward the Sun, into the earth from the backside. At the equinoxes the influence is rather uniform all over the earth. But you've got to realize that if a portion of the earth was experiencing winter its soil will be very charged up with what was drawn in from the backside. So it will be bursting with vitality. That's what launches spring. If it goes the other way the atmosphere is charged up and this soaks into the earth richly in fall (autumn for those down under). Because of the earth's tilt on its axis these phenomena are reversed in the north/south hemispheres. Whan it is summer in the north it is winter in the south and the sun is drawing life forces toward itself into the backside of the earth there. So don't think the same things are going on down under as in the northern hemisphere. They're not. The season's are reversed. 500 should be buried in April in New Zealand just like it should be buried in October here in Georgia. That's to catch this rich etheric energy soaking into the earth in autumn from the atmosphere before crystalization sets in with aces and spades. That's to catch what Steiner mentioned as especially beneficial for the growth of plants, what they have given off to the atmosphere all summer. So it isn't fruitful to talk about burying 500 in October in New Zealand, and yes, pun intended. For horn clay the same things apply, and if you want summer (conductive, fruiting) horn clay bury it at the equinox in September in En Zed. If you want winter (absorbtive, digestive) horn clay bury it at the equinox in March in NZ. It's the opposite in the northern hemisphere. Wet or dry, cold or hot are mainly considerations near the equator where the situation is not entirely clearcut. The main thing in the solar system is the Sun, not Saturn or the Moon. I don't mean Saturn or the Moon don't enter into consideration, but they are not the main most thing. This is the SOLAR system, after all. Sorry to have to go so far afield to develop this thought persuasively, but as Steiner said so frequently, we need to look at the big picture to know what goes on. Cheers, Hugh Lovel ***** Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 25 15:26:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28878 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:26:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20864; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:07:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14406 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.106] ("port 2049"@[148.233.78.106]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FH100ECQ96IML@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:11:24 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:39:54 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Horn clay/heliopause In-reply-to: <005901beeea3$77d23f60$a19dafc7@333> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id NAA14408 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1601 > Having said that, then, it seems to contradict possibably the burying of >500/501. Intuitively, it seems to me that it should be reversed for the S. >Hem. and the amount of burial time depends on the climate. > regards, Michael Dear Michael Intuition is for me just as good as any rational-inteligent or cultural based decision. I suspect that in any way we make or use the preps, they will work provided that the whole concept is an integral part of the belief structure of a given group or individual. Here I do not try to put down the great contributions that Steiner as a great "Rishi" structured in great detail for us, but that does not contradict that the real dilemma of existence is deciding what to believe, because ultimately in order to make something real we must believe in it. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 25 15:26:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28893 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:26:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20973; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:08:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15180 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:39:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.106] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.106]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FH1007AA9XK59@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:27:25 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:35:56 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: preps and the seasons In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 References: <37C30A8D.2FBB@xtra.co.nz> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id NAA15181 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1602 > >Sorry to have to go so far afield to develop this thought persuasively, but >as Steiner said so frequently, we need to look at the big picture to know >what goes on. > > > >Cheers, >Hugh Lovel Thanks Hugh: I am glad I asked ¡ In reference to my previous post; I will believe anything if it has a solid and coherent theorethical framework. What you are saying here has internal validity within the BD school of thought, which clearly beats a dogmatic approach to this subjects. Once again, many thanks Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 25 15:26:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28900 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:26:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20744; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:06:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from penguin.scsinternet.com (root@penguin.scsinternet.com [216.129.11.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09970 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:21:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dial (d41.scsinternet.com [216.129.11.41]) by penguin.scsinternet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA15156 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:26:54 -0400 Message-ID: <001e01beef16$54cd1d00$02000003@dial.scsinternet.com> From: "Karen Andersen" To: Subject: Re: Agnihotra related Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:24:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1603 -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 9:32 AM Subject: OFF: Agnihotra related >>From: "Richard & Lisa Powers" >>To: >>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:03:59 -0400 >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>X-Priority: 3 >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 >> >>Fran Rosen-Bizberg, long-time Agnihotra teacher and author of several books >>such as "I Wish I Had Known" has been receiving messages from >>extraterrestrials for some time. The messages address such things as the >>upcoming earth changes and how to prepare for them physically, mentally and >>spiritually. If you would like to receive emails of these messages, please >>reply to this message with your email address in the body of the message. >>Thank you. >>With love and best wishes to all, >>Lisa & Richard Powers >>************************************************************************** ** >>** >>* Richard & Lisa Powers >>* Visit our website at: http://www.summit.net/home/Agnihotra/ >>* Mail: Copperworks, Rt 8 Box 365, Madison VA 22727 >>* Ph. 540-948-5463 >>* Fax: 540-948-5214 >>************************************************************************** ** >>**Please subscribe me at andersen@scsinternet.com >> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 25 15:27:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28913 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:27:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21092; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:09:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15696 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (ctca160.vthokies.net [206.153.172.160]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA29046 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:41:03 -0400 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:41:03 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990825140747.081fab16@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Seasons, hemispheres, and historical events Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1604 At 09:54 AM 8/24/99 -0600, you wrote: >Dear Cheryl: > >Thanks for your reply. The wetness issue is a good argument indeed, but what I was wondering in context with Steiner saying that "The earth spirit is most awake in these twelve or thirteen days from Christmas to the Epiphany" ("Christ in Relation to Lucifer and Ahriman" (May 18, 1915)), is whether there is a possibility that the "winter" mentioned in p73 of the Agriculture lectures refered to the actual calendar (that happened to be equivalent to winter in Koberwitz) instead than to the distance from the sun of a given earth locality. Asked another way; why doesn't the southern hemisphere celebrate Christmas on June 24? Dear Guillermo, In Steiner's opinion, they do or should: "When we [in the northern hemisphere] observe St. John's Day [June 24th]--the time when we could accompany the earth-soul soaring upwards to unite itself with the stars--the antipodes celebrate Christmas. Thus, in that part of the world, the earth-soul retires into the earth." (Lec. of May 21, 1923, Oslo, Norway, in "Man's Being, His Destiny and World-Evolution," Anthroposophic Press 1984, p. 107) "Christmas is [or should be] celebrated in accordance with the earth-conditions, it is kept in what is always the very depth of winter and this hangs together with the [spiritual] meeting with Christ, with the Son, which meeting really takes place at that season [for everyone, whether they know it or not]. Christ, however, is a Being belonging to the Macrocosm. He descended from thence, yet is One with it; and this is expressed in the fixing of Easter by the heavens in spring, according to the constellations of sun and moon;--for the Easter Festival is intended to show that Christ belongs to the whole universe, just as Christmas should point to the descent of Christ to the earth. So it was right that what belongs to the seasons of the year through their rhythm in human life, should be inserted into the course of the year as has been done. For this is so profound a thing, as regards the inner being of man, that it is really right that these Festivals relating to the Mystery of Golgotha, should continue to be held in harmony with the rhythm of the great universe, and not be subject to the alteration which in modern cities has taken place in the hours of sleeping and waking." (Lec. of Mar. 13, 1917, Berlin, Germany, in "Cosmic and Human Metamorphoses," Garber Communications 1989, p. 64) Steiner is unambiguous in connecting the living spirit of Christ Jesus, the god-man, with the earth and its seasons. Steiner was absolutely convinced that since the Mystery of Golgotha (the events culminating in Christ Jesus' death and resurrection), the whole earth is--or is becoming--the body of Christ Jesus. (This is what was meant at the Last Supper when He said of the bread, "This is my body," and of the wine, "This is my blood.") Just as each of us is a spiritual being dwelling in a physical body, so too is Christ Jesus the Spirit of the Earth. And our alternation between sleeping and waking is actually exactly the same as the Earth's alternation between summer and winter. For when we are awake, we are only _partially_ awake, e.g., of the outer world via our nerves and senses; but we are not awake, for instance, in relation to our metabolic and physiological functions. On the other hand, when we are asleep in relation to our head, we are _potentially_ awake in relation to our metabolism. In other words, if we were to awaken spiritually during sleep we would be conscious of our own metabolic system but not of the outer physical world. Thus at all times we are both awake and asleep in different respects, just as on the earth there is always winter in one hemisphere while there is summer in the other. "There is a complete parallel with this [our sleeping and waking], when, for instance, there is winter on one side of the earth and summer on the other side. There too there is only a shift in consciousness, just as with us. We only don't notice it because with us the two conditions of consciousness are not of the same brightness. With us [non-initiates] the two conditions are unequal. Our night-consciousness is a dampened consciousness, for us practically no consciousness at all, while our day-consciousness is full consciousness of our other side. Our lower nature wakes in the night when our higher nature sleeps, just like on earth when it is winter on one side and summer on the other. When the earth wakes on one side it sleeps on the other side, and vice versa." (Lec. of Dec. 31, 1915, Dornach, Switzerland, GA 165, p. 92; my translation) The commemoration of historical events on the physical plane is a completely different matter from these spiritual realities. Jesus was born on a specific date in history just like you or me. And just as we celebrate our birthday always on the same date in the year, so too can we do this for Jesus. But this historical commemoration has nothing to do with the present, living Spirit of the Earth. These subjects are treated quite fully in Adrian Anderson's book: "Living a Spiritual Year: Seasonal Festivals in Northern and Southern Hemispheres" (Anthroposophic Press 1993). Adrian now lives in Australia, and lived previously in New Zealand. Although none of this directly addresses the "problem of the tropics," I think it is certainly a prerequisite to any concrete understanding of the conditions in the tropics. As far as I know, Steiner did not offer any explicit hints in this direction, so here we have an opportunity to try to practice some consequential thinking, along with detailed and sensitive observation and possibly experimentation. Best regards, Malcolm Gardner From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 25 15:31:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28985 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21212; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:10:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.243]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18572 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:35:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-4.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-4.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.4]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA102430 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:38:38 GMT Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:38:38 GMT Message-Id: <199908251838.SAA102430@out5.ibm.net> X-Sender: nzinet.lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: Bindweed advice Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1605 Linda, please would you describe Bindweed, or give its botanical name? Much appreciated Lynton At 08:06 PM 8/23/1999 EDT, you wrote: >We're hopeful that someone on this list may be able to offer us some advice >for a serious bindweed problem on our farm. The bindweed is primarily located >in one three acre field which we want to use in our vegetable crop rotation. >After discussing the problem with several area organic farmers, this summer >we have left the field fallow and intensively cutivated it with a Perfecta II >every seven to ten days. About two weeks ago we cover cropped it with sudex. >The intent was to turn over (without breaking) the bindweed roots and allow >them to dry (a good summer for this experiment!), and then smother anything >that was left with a heavy cover crop. >The experiment appears to be a dismal failure. While we may have weakened the >bindweed, it is still quite strong. >Has anyone had any experience with this weed, or any other theories that we >might consider? We are now at the point where our fellow organic farmers are >suggesting we use the Round-up bottle!! Any suggestions? >Linda >Homestead Farms > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 25 16:18:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29873 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:18:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25051; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:52:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24830 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:49:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-06.Arch-02.ap.net [207.44.219.135]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA29855 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37C447C9.B6199C25@ap.net> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:45:13 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Horn clay/heliopause References: <003401beedff$abef9080$5c431ccb@cherylke> <8B29F232601@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1606 "Anita Graf (Staff)" wrote: > I just wanted to thank Guillermo for bringing up all this in the > first place and challenging everyone to really think and understand > what's happening. > > As some of you who are also signed on to the Sanet list serve know, I > recently posted a very challenging post (too much so, probably) which > was critical of Bible-quoting member because it seems clear to me > that she is just repeating dogma rather than really challenging > herself to understand it more deeply and giving room for more subtle > understandings of the quotes. I am not nearly as gentle and > diplomatic as Guillermo always seems to be, and as I might have > expected, I just got blasted for being narrow-minded and judgemental > myself. Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is that I so appreciate > all of you out there who are really *working* with your beliefs, > being "scientific" in your spirituality, and not just parroting a > bible (in this case the Ag Lectures) and assuming that there is only > one understanding which is immediately and universally clear. > Cheryl's post made excellent points, Guillermo's post makes excellent > points (and this is a conundrum which sloshed around in my brain too > when I used to work in the tropics) and I don't know who's correct. > What I do know is that I'm very happy there are people like you all > to think deeply about it, research it, challenge it, and not take > anything for granted. > > Anita > > > Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:54:18 -0600 > > From: Guillermo Romero > > Subject: Re: Horn clay/heliopause > > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > > Reply-to: bdnow@envirolink.org > > > Dear Cheryl: > > > > Thanks for your reply. The wetness issue is a good argument indeed, but what I was wondering in context with Steiner saying that "The earth spirit is most awake in these twelve or thirteen days fro> Yet another way to put it: In determining the aliveness of earth, doesn't the "Christ impulse" has something to do ? and, Does the "Christ impulse" changes with the seasons between hemispheres ? > > > > Has anyone studied the effects of the southern preps prepared in different ways-seasons, or compared an Australian 500 to one made in Europe ? (let say measuring the vitality with a radonic device, o> > > Methodologicaly it would be very hard to measure things as the quality and the isolated effects of the preps. It might very well be that if we carry out the studies, no diference will be observed. > > > > That is why I asked on what grounds someone, sometime, decided that (ie) 500 should be buryied during the Australian winter ? > > > > It seems to me that with a cosmic perspective in mind, the distance from the sun of a given earth locality must have a negligible effect. And we are talking indeed about the cosmic forces (distant > > > Warm greetings > > > > > > >Dear Guillermo, > > >In Northern Tropical Australia we bury as Glen says, in the dry season. Two > > >reasons: > > >1: IF 500 was buried in the wet, then it would get too soggy. > > >2. In the Agriculture Lectures Steiner speaks of the winter as the time that > > >the cosmic forces go deep into the earth, the crystallising winter forces. > > >And the 500 has to be developed " when the earth is most inwardly active". > > >That is why we bury the 500 in the winter in the southern hemisphere. See > > >page 73 top in Agriculture Lectures Gardner version. > > >Peter Proctor has also found great success with burying the horns in the dry > > >season in India, and finds that they only need about 3 months underground > > >before they are ready. But the earth above must be kept damp for them to > > >turn. If left any longer the earthworms devour the whole lot. I guess you > > >could say that the earth is most inwardly active in the tropical areas over > > >the dry period. Obviously above the earth is very active in the rainy > > >season. (Moist, earthly forces rising upwards). > > > > > >In Northern Australia around Darwin, wild Buffalo horns are used, as they > > >are easily available. We have a member, Rachel Morgan, who works with the > > >aboriginal people and has made the preps with organs from the buffalo too. > > >But we do send her up the prep flowers from the more temperate areas. But I > > >am sure we could find some equivalent wild flowers. Peter Proctor has > > >experimented with using the Onga-Onga stinging nettle in NZ with great > > >success. Each country seems to have a wild nettle of its own that works the > > >same as the Urtica Dioica. This is another area of Biodynamics awaiting > > >further research. > > >Kind regards, > > >Cheryl Kemp > > >Education & Advisory Coordinator > > >Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. > > >of Australia Inc. > > >P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) > > >627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) > > >Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 > > > > > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > > > > > > Anita Graf > 313-F Conner Hall > Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics > University of Georgia > Athens, GA 30602-7509 > (706) 542-1915 phone > (706) 542-0739 fax > agraf@agecon.uga.edu Dearest Friends: I have been following this discussion with great interest philsophically as I endeavor to get as much BD practical experience as I can on the earth plane. I would just like to remind you not to forget that the workings of Biodynamics are unlikely to yield to just logic or "scientific" analyses. Simply put, although earthbound chemistry and cosmic/etheric forces do mix, the results of combining the two don't necessarily yield highly predictable results. Moreover, cautious empiricism would seem to be the order of the day. Consider that Dr. Steiner may have known considerably more , in all respects, than he revealed and that he purposely left certain aspects as undefined because the "time" was not yet right. Moreover, what he presented was flavored by his particular abilities and filters. I would encourage you to proceed more slowly than you would care to, and let your heart [ the human radioic instrument ] guide your experimental choices. There is no way to fine tune this instrument without the experience of using it. First, consider if the experiment FEELS right. Then,What does Mother Nature demand? And you may find no relationship to any writings of the past. Have faith-go for it. Welcome to the school of Applied Intuition. May your days be dogged by blessings of abundance, Best Regards, David Isaacs/whirlderv@ap.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 25 16:26:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00017 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:26:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA26223; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:06:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA26013 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.010B3697@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:04:32 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 25 Aug 99 16:07:42 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 25 Aug 99 16:07:24 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:07:19 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Seasons, hemispheres, and historical events Priority: normal In-reply-to: <1.5.4.16.19990825140747.081fab16@swva.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <8B93F4813DE@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1607 What a wonderful post, Ian. Thank you for this. (I wonder if I could share some of this with the temporary discussion that was mentioned earlier that is looking at "scripture" --in a very broad sense -- that has to do with agriculture? If you don't mind, please let me know.) I also wonder about the whole "specific birthday" stuff you mention at the end of the post. It seems reasonable enough to me to suppose that most of what is written in the Bible is meant to have more metaphysical significance rather than literal. It seems to me no accident that Jesus is written as having been born at the point of deepest winter for the northern hemisphere and then resurrected at the time of the spring equinox (and fertility rituals), whether or not it actually happened that way. Don't these events also correspond with older pre-Judeo-Christian holy times/pagan rituals? Assuming that there was an actual blood and flesh human named Jesus who was transformed to be the Christ (and I'm not convinced that this really matters for one to still be a believer of the Christ impulse, a Christian), isn't it possible that he was born and died at different dates than the ones we traditionally use (and hasn't the calander been changed since then, and how does this play into it?), but for Biblical purposes, the dates presented are the ones of significance because of much deeper reasons? Of course, if these man, Jesus, was also fulfulling prophecy and incarnated for such special purposes, it would also be reasonable to assume that he would get the timing correct, I suppose. In this case, I am quite convinced that the "timing" does indeed have to do with the seasons, and had he come to earth at some place in the southern hemisphere (imagine an African or Latin American Christ!) he would have come and gone at opposite times of the year. Perhaps CHRISTmas should be celebrated as the time of the "incarnation of the Christ spirit" rather than the "birth of the man Jesus." This would also seem to make sense to me along side a seasonal-appropriate reading of the Calander of the Soul. Just some thoughts... Anita > "When we [in the northern hemisphere] observe St. John's Day [June > 24th]--the time when we could accompany the earth-soul soaring upwards to > unite itself with the stars--the antipodes celebrate Christmas. Thus, in > that part of the world, the earth-soul retires into the earth." (Lec. of > May 21, 1923, Oslo, Norway, in "Man's Being, His Destiny and > World-Evolution," Anthroposophic Press 1984, p. 107) > > "Christmas is [or should be] celebrated in accordance with the > earth-conditions, it is kept in what is always the very depth of winter and > this hangs together with the [spiritual] meeting with Christ, with the Son, > which meeting really takes place at that season [for everyone, whether they > know it or not]. Christ, however, is a Being belonging to the Macrocosm. > He descended from thence, yet is One with it; and this is expressed in the > fixing of Easter by the heavens in spring, according to the constellations > of sun and moon;--for the Easter Festival is intended to show that Christ > belongs to the whole universe, just as Christmas should point to the descent > of Christ to the earth. So it was right that what belongs to the seasons of > the year through their rhythm in human life, should be inserted into the > course of the year as has been done. For this is so profound a thing, as > regards the inner being of man, that it is really right that these Festivals > relating to the Mystery of Golgotha, should continue to be held in harmony > with the rhythm of the great universe, and not be subject to the alteration > which in modern cities has taken place in the hours of sleeping and waking." > (Lec. of Mar. 13, 1917, Berlin, Germany, in "Cosmic and Human > Metamorphoses," Garber Communications 1989, p. 64) > > Steiner is unambiguous in connecting the living spirit of Christ > Jesus, the god-man, with the earth and its seasons. Steiner was absolutely > convinced that since the Mystery of Golgotha (the events culminating in > Christ Jesus' death and resurrection), the whole earth is--or is > becoming--the body of Christ Jesus. (This is what was meant at the Last > Supper when He said of the bread, "This is my body," and of the wine, "This > is my blood.") Just as each of us is a spiritual being dwelling in a > physical body, so too is Christ Jesus the Spirit of the Earth. And our > alternation between sleeping and waking is actually exactly the same as the > Earth's alternation between summer and winter. For when we are awake, we > are only _partially_ awake, e.g., of the outer world via our nerves and > senses; but we are not awake, for instance, in relation to our metabolic and > physiological functions. On the other hand, when we are asleep in relation > to our head, we are _potentially_ awake in relation to our metabolism. In > other words, if we were to awaken spiritually during sleep we would be > conscious of our own metabolic system but not of the outer physical world. > Thus at all times we are both awake and asleep in different respects, just > as on the earth there is always winter in one hemisphere while there is > summer in the other. > > "There is a complete parallel with this [our sleeping and waking], when, for > instance, there is winter on one side of the earth and summer on the other > side. There too there is only a shift in consciousness, just as with us. > We only don't notice it because with us the two conditions of consciousness > are not of the same brightness. With us [non-initiates] the two conditions > are unequal. Our night-consciousness is a dampened consciousness, for us > practically no consciousness at all, while our day-consciousness is full > consciousness of our other side. Our lower nature wakes in the night when > our higher nature sleeps, just like on earth when it is winter on one side > and summer on the other. When the earth wakes on one side it sleeps on the > other side, and vice versa." (Lec. of Dec. 31, 1915, Dornach, Switzerland, > GA 165, p. 92; my translation) > > The commemoration of historical events on the physical plane is a > completely different matter from these spiritual realities. Jesus was born > on a specific date in history just like you or me. And just as we celebrate > our birthday always on the same date in the year, so too can we do this for > Jesus. But this historical commemoration has nothing to do with the > present, living Spirit of the Earth. > These subjects are treated quite fully in Adrian Anderson's book: > "Living a Spiritual Year: Seasonal Festivals in Northern and Southern > Hemispheres" (Anthroposophic Press 1993). Adrian now lives in Australia, > and lived previously in New Zealand. > Although none of this directly addresses the "problem of the > tropics," I think it is certainly a prerequisite to any concrete > understanding of the conditions in the tropics. As far as I know, Steiner > did not offer any explicit hints in this direction, so here we have an > opportunity to try to practice some consequential thinking, along with > detailed and sensitive observation and possibly experimentation. > > Best regards, > Malcolm Gardner > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 25 17:19:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01300 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:19:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00089; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:00:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29729 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:56:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.87] (pm3mbr2-166-87.intrepid.net [209.190.166.87]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA18831; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:59:23 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BEEF12.02993F40.mcoderey@downer.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 05:04:33 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: RE: Agnihotra related Cc: mcoderey@downer.fr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1608 regarding forwarded messages: Please make your requests directly to the email contained in the message and NOT by using the REPLY button in your mailer! For example, to subscribe to this service, send your request to copworks@summit.net and not to BD Now! Thanks! Allan Balliett BD Now! hodcarrier >please send them on!!!! >mcoderey@downer.fr > >-----Original Message----- >From: Allan Balliett [SMTP:igg@igg.com] >Sent: August 25, 1999 03:30 >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: OFF: Agnihotra related > >>From: "Richard & Lisa Powers" >>To: >>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:03:59 -0400 >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>X-Priority: 3 >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 >> >>Fran Rosen-Bizberg, long-time Agnihotra teacher and author of several books >>such as "I Wish I Had Known" has been receiving messages from >>extraterrestrials for some time. The messages address such things as the >>upcoming earth changes and how to prepare for them physically, mentally and >>spiritually. If you would like to receive emails of these messages, please >>reply to this message with your email address in the body of the message. >>Thank you. >>With love and best wishes to all, >>Lisa & Richard Powers >>**************************************************************************** >>** >>* Richard & Lisa Powers >>* Visit our website at: http://www.summit.net/home/Agnihotra/ >>* Mail: Copperworks, Rt 8 Box 365, Madison VA 22727 >>* Ph. 540-948-5463 >>* Fax: 540-948-5214 >>**************************************************************************** >>** >> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Aug 25 17:42:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA02006 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:42:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01470; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:21:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01399 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.87] (pm3mbr2-166-87.intrepid.net [209.190.166.87]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA24651 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:23:54 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990825140747.081fab16@swva.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 05:29:06 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Malcolm: Recommendations for Steiners Works in German Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1609 Dear Malcolm - I was asked if there were any inprint editions of RS's works in native German that are better than other inprint editions. (I'm not even certain there is a choice!) Which press, etc, (if there actually is a choice!), would you recommend, Malcolm, to my friend to prefers to read in German? Thanks -Allan Balliett From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 26 04:19:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA09605 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 04:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA04124; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 03:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA04065 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 03:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-67.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.67]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA14880 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:01:08 +1000 Message-ID: <004801beef98$e40123e0$43431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Seasons, hemispheres, and historical events Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:16:46 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1610 -----Original Message----- From: malcolm ian gardner To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, 26 August 1999 5:14 am Subject: Seasons, hemispheres, and historical events > > In Steiner's opinion, they do or should: > >"When we [in the northern hemisphere] observe St. John's Day [June >24th]--the time when we could accompany the earth-soul soaring upwards to >unite itself with the stars--the antipodes celebrate Christmas. Thus, in >that part of the world, the earth-soul retires into the earth." (Lec. of >May 21, 1923, Oslo, Norway, in "Man's Being, His Destiny and >World-Evolution," Anthroposophic Press 1984, p. 107) > >"Christmas is [or should be] celebrated in accordance with the >earth-conditions, it is kept in what is always the very depth of winter and >this hangs together with the [spiritual] meeting with Christ, with the Son, >which meeting really takes place at that season [for everyone, whether they >know it or not]. Christ, however, is a Being belonging to the Macrocosm. >He descended from thence, yet is One with it; and this is expressed in the >fixing of Easter by the heavens in spring, according to the constellations >of sun and moon;--for the Easter Festival is intended to show that Christ >belongs to the whole universe, just as Christmas should point to the descent >of Christ to the earth. So it was right that what belongs to the seasons of >the year through their rhythm in human life, should be inserted into the >course of the year as has been done. For this is so profound a thing, as >regards the inner being of man, that it is really right that these Festivals >relating to the Mystery of Golgotha, should continue to be held in harmony >with the rhythm of the great universe, and not be subject to the alteration >which in modern cities has taken place in the hours of sleeping and waking." >(Lec. of Mar. 13, 1917, Berlin, Germany, in "Cosmic and Human >Metamorphoses," Garber Communications 1989, p. 64) > Dear Malcolm, Yes, you are right, we should celebrate Christmas or the Christ energy in our winter. It is interesting, that many of the colder areas around our country have Christmas in June/July as a celebration at restaurants where one can enjoy having the full Christmas dinner (Roast Turkey, Plum Pudding etc) when the weather is cold, Totally missing the point of what Christmas is about, but acknowledging the schizophrenic way of life that we live in the Southern Hemisphere. Usually we are madly trying to cook Roast Turkeys and Plum Puddings, in heatwave conditions when all we want to do is be on the beach and enjoying our summer holidays. It is one of my great desires to experience a "real Christmas", where it is snowing and you are indoors and have all the time to prepare and even meditate as the Earth goes inwards. I have tried celebrating the 12 holy nights days after Christmas from the 25th June but without the Festival it is difficult. Brian Keats, who writes our Antipodean Calender reminds us that the 25th June is the Southern Christmas, and time to have it as a winter festival. Maybe this is something for us to work on. We do celebrate walking the spiral to connect with the inner light, so maybe this could be expanded to connect with the Christ Spirit. Hmm, lots to think about here. Cheryl Kemp. Also , thankyou for your thoughts Hugh, Yes I also see the earth as having both forces happening together, just like the tides, the day and night and inbreathing and outbreathing of the earth with each season, like the flowform Glen was talking about or the Yin-Yang sign. It is quite a lovely picture of the summer forces of the sun being pulled through the earth from the other hemispheres winter. Cheryl. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 26 11:08:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14203 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:08:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19725; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:48:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19431 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:44:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (CVA09-23.swva.net [206.99.244.195]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA25446 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:37:23 -0400 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:37:23 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990826110446.328ffc98@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: Seasons, hemispheres, and historical events Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1611 At 04:07 PM 8/25/99 EST5EDT, you wrote: >What a wonderful post, Ian. Thank you for this. (I wonder if I >could share some of this with the temporary discussion that was >mentioned earlier that is looking at "scripture" --in a very broad >sense -- that has to do with agriculture? If you don't mind, please >let me know.) I don't mind. >I also wonder about the whole "specific birthday" stuff you mention >at the end of the post. It seems reasonable enough to me to suppose >that most of what is written in the Bible is meant to have more >metaphysical significance rather than literal. It seems to me no >accident that Jesus is written as having been born at the point of >deepest winter for the northern hemisphere and then resurrected at >the time of the spring equinox (and fertility rituals), whether or >not it actually happened that way. Don't these events also >correspond with older pre-Judeo-Christian holy times/pagan rituals? >Assuming that there was an actual blood and flesh human named Jesus >who was transformed to be the Christ (and I'm not convinced that this >really matters for one to still be a believer of the Christ >impulse, a Christian), isn't it possible that he was born and died at >different dates than the ones we traditionally use (and hasn't the >calander been changed since then, and how does this play into it?), >but for Biblical purposes, the dates presented are the ones of >significance because of much deeper reasons? Of course, if these >man, Jesus, was also fulfulling prophecy and incarnated for such >special purposes, it would also be reasonable to assume that he would >get the timing correct, I suppose. In this case, I am quite >convinced that the "timing" does indeed have to do with the seasons, >and had he come to earth at some place in the southern hemisphere >(imagine an African or Latin American Christ!) he would have come and >gone at opposite times of the year. Yes, but the _place_ as well as the time was significant. Palestine is a very special place. It is at the intersection of three continents and the Dead Sea is the lowest place on earth. >Perhaps CHRISTmas should be >celebrated as the time of the "incarnation of the Christ spirit" >rather than the "birth of the man Jesus." >From Steiner's perspective, Christ and Jesus were not directly united until the Baptism in the Jordan River, which flows into the Dead Sea. The traditional commemorative date of this event, whether or not it is historically accurate, is January 6, which is also Epiphany or Three Kings Day, when Jesus was presented to the three Magi from the East. >This would also seem to >make sense to me alongside a seasonal-appropriate reading of the >Calander of the Soul. > >Just some thoughts... Anita Keep thinking! Malcolm >> "When we [in the northern hemisphere] observe St. John's Day [June >> 24th]--the time when we could accompany the earth-soul soaring upwards to >> unite itself with the stars--the antipodes celebrate Christmas. Thus, in >> that part of the world, the earth-soul retires into the earth." (Lec. of >> May 21, 1923, Oslo, Norway, in "Man's Being, His Destiny and >> World-Evolution," Anthroposophic Press 1984, p. 107) >> >> "Christmas is [or should be] celebrated in accordance with the >> earth-conditions, it is kept in what is always the very depth of winter and >> this hangs together with the [spiritual] meeting with Christ, with the Son, >> which meeting really takes place at that season [for everyone, whether they >> know it or not]. Christ, however, is a Being belonging to the Macrocosm. >> He descended from thence, yet is One with it; and this is expressed in the >> fixing of Easter by the heavens in spring, according to the constellations >> of sun and moon;--for the Easter Festival is intended to show that Christ >> belongs to the whole universe, just as Christmas should point to the descent >> of Christ to the earth. So it was right that what belongs to the seasons of >> the year through their rhythm in human life, should be inserted into the >> course of the year as has been done. For this is so profound a thing, as >> regards the inner being of man, that it is really right that these Festivals >> relating to the Mystery of Golgotha, should continue to be held in harmony >> with the rhythm of the great universe, and not be subject to the alteration >> which in modern cities has taken place in the hours of sleeping and waking." >> (Lec. of Mar. 13, 1917, Berlin, Germany, in "Cosmic and Human >> Metamorphoses," Garber Communications 1989, p. 64) >> >> Steiner is unambiguous in connecting the living spirit of Christ >> Jesus, the god-man, with the earth and its seasons. Steiner was absolutely >> convinced that since the Mystery of Golgotha (the events culminating in >> Christ Jesus' death and resurrection), the whole earth is--or is >> becoming--the body of Christ Jesus. (This is what was meant at the Last >> Supper when He said of the bread, "This is my body," and of the wine, "This >> is my blood.") Just as each of us is a spiritual being dwelling in a >> physical body, so too is Christ Jesus the Spirit of the Earth. And our >> alternation between sleeping and waking is actually exactly the same as the >> Earth's alternation between summer and winter. For when we are awake, we >> are only _partially_ awake, e.g., of the outer world via our nerves and >> senses; but we are not awake, for instance, in relation to our metabolic and >> physiological functions. On the other hand, when we are asleep in relation >> to our head, we are _potentially_ awake in relation to our metabolism. In >> other words, if we were to awaken spiritually during sleep we would be >> conscious of our own metabolic system but not of the outer physical world. >> Thus at all times we are both awake and asleep in different respects, just >> as on the earth there is always winter in one hemisphere while there is >> summer in the other. >> >> "There is a complete parallel with this [our sleeping and waking], when, for >> instance, there is winter on one side of the earth and summer on the other >> side. There too there is only a shift in consciousness, just as with us. >> We only don't notice it because with us the two conditions of consciousness >> are not of the same brightness. With us [non-initiates] the two conditions >> are unequal. Our night-consciousness is a dampened consciousness, for us >> practically no consciousness at all, while our day-consciousness is full >> consciousness of our other side. Our lower nature wakes in the night when >> our higher nature sleeps, just like on earth when it is winter on one side >> and summer on the other. When the earth wakes on one side it sleeps on the >> other side, and vice versa." (Lec. of Dec. 31, 1915, Dornach, Switzerland, >> GA 165, p. 92; my translation) >> >> The commemoration of historical events on the physical plane is a >> completely different matter from these spiritual realities. Jesus was born >> on a specific date in history just like you or me. And just as we celebrate >> our birthday always on the same date in the year, so too can we do this for >> Jesus. But this historical commemoration has nothing to do with the >> present, living Spirit of the Earth. >> These subjects are treated quite fully in Adrian Anderson's book: >> "Living a Spiritual Year: Seasonal Festivals in Northern and Southern >> Hemispheres" (Anthroposophic Press 1993). Adrian now lives in Australia, >> and lived previously in New Zealand. >> Although none of this directly addresses the "problem of the >> tropics," I think it is certainly a prerequisite to any concrete >> understanding of the conditions in the tropics. As far as I know, Steiner >> did not offer any explicit hints in this direction, so here we have an >> opportunity to try to practice some consequential thinking, along with >> detailed and sensitive observation and possibly experimentation. >> >> Best regards, >> Malcolm Gardner >> >> > > >Anita Graf >313-F Conner Hall >Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics >University of Georgia >Athens, GA 30602-7509 >(706) 542-1915 phone >(706) 542-0739 fax >agraf@agecon.uga.edu > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 26 11:08:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14212 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:08:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19845; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:49:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19446 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:44:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (CVA09-23.swva.net [206.99.244.195]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA25462 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:37:33 -0400 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:37:33 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990826110455.25c76d84@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: Malcolm: Recommendations for Steiners Works in German Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1612 At 05:29 AM 8/25/99 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Malcolm - > >I was asked if there were any inprint editions of RS's works in native >German that are better than other inprint editions. (I'm not even certain >there is a choice!) > >Which press, etc, (if there actually is a choice!), would you recommend, >Malcolm, to my friend to prefers to read in German? > >Thanks > >-Allan Balliett Dear Allen, The only choice in German is hardback or paperback (no color plates). A facsimile of Steiner's handwritten notes to the Course is also available separately. The Anthroposophic Press in Hudson, NY, may have some of these items in stock or they can order them from Swizterland (tel. 518-851-2054). However, I would point out to your friend that there is considerable material in the American editon that is _not_ in the German edition; i.e., the American edition includes Steiner's handwritten notes, several other appendices, extensive editorial notes, and a comprehensive index (as well as the color plates). Furthermore, there are also certain advantages to the translated text. It is easier to read because the sentence structure is somewhat simpler (the German retains more of the meanderings of the spoken delivery), in a couple of places mistakes in the placement of the diagrams have been corrected, and a few editorial mistakes in the German edition have been rectified. So, if he is serious, I think he will want both the German and the American editions. Best regards, Malcolm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 26 11:21:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14452 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:21:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20870; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20652 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.87] (pm3mbr3-166-136.intrepid.net [209.190.166.136]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13335 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:03:06 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990826110455.25c76d84@swva.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 23:08:17 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Malcolm: Recommendations for Steiners Works in German Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1613 Thanks, Malcolm. He is interested in - - and he does have the means to - - purchasing EVERYTHING by RS in German in print. I did point out to him that if he reads in the original German he will missout on your swell translation! ;-) -Allan igg@igg.com >At 05:29 AM 8/25/99 -0400, you wrote: >>Dear Malcolm - >> >>I was asked if there were any inprint editions of RS's works in native >>German that are better than other inprint editions. (I'm not even certain >>there is a choice!) >> >>Which press, etc, (if there actually is a choice!), would you recommend, >>Malcolm, to my friend to prefers to read in German? >> >>Thanks >> >>-Allan Balliett > >Dear Allen, > The only choice in German is hardback or paperback (no color >plates). A facsimile of Steiner's handwritten notes to the Course is also >available separately. The Anthroposophic Press in Hudson, NY, may have some >of these items in stock or they can order them from Swizterland (tel. >518-851-2054). However, I would point out to your friend that there is >considerable material in the American editon that is _not_ in the German >edition; i.e., the American edition includes Steiner's handwritten notes, >several other appendices, extensive editorial notes, and a comprehensive >index (as well as the color plates). Furthermore, there are also certain >advantages to the translated text. It is easier to read because the >sentence structure is somewhat simpler (the German retains more of the >meanderings of the spoken delivery), in a couple of places mistakes in the >placement of the diagrams have been corrected, and a few editorial mistakes >in the German edition have been rectified. So, if he is serious, I think he >will want both the German and the American editions. > >Best regards, >Malcolm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Aug 26 11:23:49 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14483 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA20856; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:12:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20533 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:11:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.190.166.87] (pm3mbr3-166-136.intrepid.net [209.190.166.136]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA15053; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:11:19 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 23:16:34 -0400 To: csa-l@prairienet.org, bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FW [dcfoodgroup] National FArmers MArket Week Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1614 >Mailing-List: contact dcfoodgroup-owner@egroups.com >X-Mailing-List: dcfoodgroup@egroups.com >X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/dcfoodgroup/ >Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-dcfoodgroup@egroups.com >X-Originating-IP: [199.128.225.209] >From: "Claire Klotz" >To: nefood-l@listproc.tufts.edu, dcfoodgroup@egroups.com >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:21:46 PDT >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Subject: [dcfoodgroup] National FArmers MArket Week >Mime-Version: 1.0 > >GLICKMAN ANNOUNCES NATIONAL FARMERS MARKET WEEK > > Release No. 0345.99 > > > > > Andrew Hatch (202) 720-8998 > andrew.hatch@usda.gov > Billy A. Cox (202) 720-8998 > billy.cox@usda.gov > >GLICKMAN ANNOUNCES NATIONAL FARMERS MARKET WEEK > > WASHINGTON, August 20, 1999--Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman today >proclaimed August 21-28 as National Farmers Market Week. > > "Farmers markets and roadside stands have always been a way for >Americans to stay in touch with our heritage and our roots," said Glickman. >"Today, farmers markets are also critical to the success of American >agriculture by allowing small farmers to sell their fresh produce directly >to >consumers. At USDA, we work hard to increase awareness among farmers and >consumers about the convenience and value of farmers markets." > > USDA works closely with state departments of agriculture encouraging >the >increased development of farmers markets to assist the small grower. >Particular emphasis is placed on minority farmers and providing access to >fresh fruits and vegetables to the urban, under-served consumer. One way >USDA >is accomplishing these goals is through the USDA-operated farmers market >which >is held weekly at department headquarters. > > USDA's Agricultural Marketing Service works with states to encourage >market growth, while the Food and Nutrition Service helps needy families >gain >access to healthy produce. Food stamp recipients can use their benefits at >most farmers markets, as can many participants in the Women, Infants, and >Children program. > > The number of farmers markets in the United States has grown >dramatically in recent years. USDA's 1998 farmers market directory lists >2,746 farmers markets, up from 2,410 in 1996 and 1,755 in 1994, when USDA >began collecting the data. Sales at farmers markets will total $1 billion >this year, with most of the money going directly to small family farmers. > > Information on farmers markets, including the National Directory of >Farmers Markets, can be obtained on the web at >www.ams.usda.gov/farmersmarkets >or by calling 800-384-8704. > > # Linda Elswick Washington Representative Community Food Security Coalition From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 26 11:30:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14683 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21625; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21193 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.87] (pm3mbr3-166-136.intrepid.net [209.190.166.136]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA14568 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:08:53 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 23:13:02 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD: Agnihotra- Operating the timings program for year 2000 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1615 ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:32:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21691; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21298 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:07:20 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hZAVa28682 (3860) for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:09:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8929097c.24f6b2b0@aol.com> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:09:36 EDT Subject: Re: Seasons, hemispheres, and historical events To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 35 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1616 In a message dated 8/26/1999 7:50:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mgardner@swva.net writes: << >Perhaps CHRISTmas should be celebrated as the time of the "incarnation of the Christ spirit" rather than the "birth of the man Jesus." >> that or we drop all the pagan-influenced holydays and stick with the festivals listed in Lev 23. "christ" was born during winter? nothing could be further than the truth. Birthdays were never celebrated by the people of Yahweh. According to McClintock and Strong, the Israelites traditionally "regarded birthday celebrations as parts of idolatrous worship." This explains why the specific date of Yahshua of Nazareth's birth is not given in any Bible. He could not have been born in December. Bethlehem in December is freezing cold, far too cold for shepherds to tend their flocks under open skies at night. (Luke 2:8) Nor did cities require families to make long journeys to be taxed in December. (Luke 2:5) . The best-informed estimates place the birth of Yahshua of Nazareth, according to the "new testament" in late September or early October. So, who's birthday is celebrated on December 25? The answer is in the Roman Catholic Liturgical Year. March 25 is the date now sanctified in the papal calendar as "Annunciation of the Virgin," the day Mary conceived Yahshua. In pre-Christian Rome, March 25 was sanctified as the day Cybele, the Mother Goddess of Phrygia, conceived the Babylonian Messiah. Exactly nine months from March 25 is December 25. Which means that the "baby Yahshua" of the household nativity displays and the church pageants is not any Messiah of Yahweh at all. The Babylonian Messiah was known to the biblical prophets as "Tammuz." (Ezekiel 8:10-16) His name is derived from tam, meaning "to make perfect," and muz, "fire." Thus, Tammuz is "the perfecting fire," a title given to him as sun-god. According to pagan stories, Tammuz (pronounced "Thomas") was slain and descended in the western sky to the nether world, and woe and desolation fell upon the earth. His mother, Cybele, directed the world to face the east and weep for his loss. Then, she descended to the nether world herself, and after many trials succeeded in bringing Tammuz back on the glorious morning of December 25, and fertility and joy returned to the earth. Well before the birth of Yahshua of Nazareth, Tammuz had been absorbed with the other gods of the Roman Empire into the unconquerable character of Mithras. Saturn, too, was absorbed into the light of Mithras. Tammuz, Saturn, and Mithras - all became the same "super-god." Saturn's holiday season, the great Saturnalia, occurred around the winter solstice, the day of the shortest period of daylight, from which day sunlight began to increase. The day of solstice was regarded as the birth of the sun - the sun-god Mithras - and the birth was celebrated with wreathes, merrymaking, and exchanging of gifts beneath cut trees adorned with serpentine garlands and miniature household gods. Although the exact day of winter solstice varies from December 22 to 27, ancient tradition fixed the birthday of Mithras at December 25. We're not surprised, then, to find that the first time "Yahshua of Nazareth's" birthday was celebrated on December 25 was in the year 336, at the instigation of the Roman Emperor Constantine, the highest priest of Mithras. Thus, the baby born on "Christmas" day is a pagan deity and more. Since he is Mithras, the god who conquered all the other gods, he also embodies Mercury, who could change his shape, age, voice, sex, even his specie in order to suit any circumstance. By the standard rules of pagan theology, Santa Claus with his impossibly good health in a grossly overweight body bursting with toxins, spreading with eye-twinkling good cheer the doctrine that Deeds of the flesh have no effect upon the health of the soul, and consequently no relation to salvation, Santa Claus is both Magical and Satanic! It is difficult to face the possibility that what you've grown up believing was only a tissue of fables. The glaring pagan facts of that history clearly prove who was responsible for the adaptation of such Mithraic festivals as Easter and Christmas into Roman Catholicism. In regards to easter, "easter" = the pagan festival of Astarte, also known as 'Ishtar'. This festival was held in late April. In its original form, it was a celebration of the earth's regenerating itself after the winter season. The festival involved the celebration of fertility and reproduction. The common symbols of Easter were the rabbit and (for obvious reasons) the egg. Pagan symbols which have crept into denominational usage. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 26 11:33:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14814 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:33:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21754; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:13:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21316 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.87] (pm3mbr3-166-136.intrepid.net [209.190.166.136]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA14980 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:10:54 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 23:16:10 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD: Dates and cost for Preparation making & Forestry Conferences etc. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA21319 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1617 I'd have to say that I find this 'private list thing' a little 'disturbing.' For those of you whose addresses weren't gleaned in time, here's Ferdy's conference schedule. -Allan Final dates and approx. cost of various conferences at C-Dar House >From September 28th, 1999 until October 13th, 1999 1. THE SEVEN I AMs & BD PREPARATIONS >From Sept. 28th – Sept. 30th and from Oct. 5th – Oct. 7th Approx. cost: Accommodation at C-Dar House & meals etc. First three days: $270.-- & $270.—second three days. 2. MAGICAL STRING AND EVENING FIRE SIDE TALK October 1st at 7:30PM – Midnight…. By invitation (no cost) 3. MAGICAL STRING CONCERT October 2nd at 3:00 – 5:00PM Donation & ticket $20.— per person 4. BLESSING OF THE PREPARATIONS October 3rd at 10:00 – 12:00 noon Pot-Luck lunch (no cost) 5. SMALL SCALE FOREST REGENERATION WORKSHOP Starting 8:00PM October 8th with an evening lecture ending October 10th, 5:30PM For both workshops can.$375.—provided we have enough room at C-Dar House. Otherwise, accommodation will have to be outside (credit can.$20.—per night) & cost of motel/hotel accommodation. Individual cost can.$180.— for course #5 6. INTENSIVE BIO-DYNAMIC FORESTRY WORKSHOP October 11th – October 13th noon. See course #5 re accommodation Cost can.$270.-- AT C-DAR HOUSE, BRACKENDALE, B.C. CANADA. Deadline: September 20th, 1999 1. THE SEVEN I AMs & THE SEVEN PREPARATIONS (A BD Preparation making course that is to lead the participant into a deeper understanding of the spiritual background of the Bio-Dynamic Preparations). With preparation making sessions of Preparations # 502, 503, 505, 506 and daily hands-on experience (Preparation making, compost inocculating, spraying of preparations etc.) September 28th – September 30th, AND FROM October 5th – October 7th, 1999 Presenters: Philip Harmon, Anna von Druska, Ferdinand Vondruska, Thomas Link, Robert Gallagher 2. MAGICAL STRING EVENING MUSIC AND FIRESIDE DREAM TALK (for those who attended the Seven I am & Preparation workshop) October 1st, 1999, AT ABOUT 7:30pm. The Bards and Elves, the Fauns and Druids will meet around the fire and sip sleepy fall and winter wine… Presenters: Pam and Philip Boulding, Seattle MICHAELMAS CELEBRATION 3. MAGICAL STRING CONCERT, Saturday, October 2nd, 1999 – at 3 - 5PM (a two hour concert; intermission - coffee and cake will be served) A fundraising even for C-Dar World Forest Foundation with P. & P. Boulding 4. BLESSING OF THE PREPARATIONS WITH REV. PHILIP HARMON, Waianae, Hawaii Sunday, October 3rd, 1999, 10AM By Invitation: Pot Luck Lunch Musically supported by Pam & Philip Boulding 5. SMALL SCALE FOREST REGENERATION Conference & Workshop Lectures, discussions, talk and some hands-on experience. Studies of the Ethers, Etherial map, the Elemental world, the application of BD Preparations in and around the forest. Forest Composts, spraying of preparations in the forest etc. October 8th, 1999 (7:00PM Lecture by F. Vondruska) October 9th & 10th, 1999 with Thomas Link, Chris Runnals, Ferdinand Vondruska & Robert Gallagher And continues as an: 6. INTENSIVE BIO-DYNAMIC FORESTRY WORKSHOP IN THE FORESTS OF C-DAR HOUSE, Brackendale, Upper Cheakamus. B.C. This course is based on Course #5 – but can be taken seperately as well. October 11th – October 13th, 1999 with Thomas Link, Robert Gallagher, Ferdinand Vondruska C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation; a fully registered Canadian charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation; a fully registered Canadian charity # BN 89103 0348 RR0001 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 26 11:34:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14832 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21836; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:14:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21335 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.87] (pm3mbr3-166-136.intrepid.net [209.190.166.136]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA15053; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:11:19 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 23:16:34 -0400 To: csa-l@prairienet.org, bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FW [dcfoodgroup] National FArmers MArket Week Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1618 >Mailing-List: contact dcfoodgroup-owner@egroups.com >X-Mailing-List: dcfoodgroup@egroups.com >X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/dcfoodgroup/ >Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-dcfoodgroup@egroups.com >X-Originating-IP: [199.128.225.209] >From: "Claire Klotz" >To: nefood-l@listproc.tufts.edu, dcfoodgroup@egroups.com >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:21:46 PDT >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Subject: [dcfoodgroup] National FArmers MArket Week >Mime-Version: 1.0 > >GLICKMAN ANNOUNCES NATIONAL FARMERS MARKET WEEK > > Release No. 0345.99 > > > > > Andrew Hatch (202) 720-8998 > andrew.hatch@usda.gov > Billy A. Cox (202) 720-8998 > billy.cox@usda.gov > >GLICKMAN ANNOUNCES NATIONAL FARMERS MARKET WEEK > > WASHINGTON, August 20, 1999--Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman today >proclaimed August 21-28 as National Farmers Market Week. > > "Farmers markets and roadside stands have always been a way for >Americans to stay in touch with our heritage and our roots," said Glickman. >"Today, farmers markets are also critical to the success of American >agriculture by allowing small farmers to sell their fresh produce directly >to >consumers. At USDA, we work hard to increase awareness among farmers and >consumers about the convenience and value of farmers markets." > > USDA works closely with state departments of agriculture encouraging >the >increased development of farmers markets to assist the small grower. >Particular emphasis is placed on minority farmers and providing access to >fresh fruits and vegetables to the urban, under-served consumer. One way >USDA >is accomplishing these goals is through the USDA-operated farmers market >which >is held weekly at department headquarters. > > USDA's Agricultural Marketing Service works with states to encourage >market growth, while the Food and Nutrition Service helps needy families >gain >access to healthy produce. Food stamp recipients can use their benefits at >most farmers markets, as can many participants in the Women, Infants, and >Children program. > > The number of farmers markets in the United States has grown >dramatically in recent years. USDA's 1998 farmers market directory lists >2,746 farmers markets, up from 2,410 in 1996 and 1,755 in 1994, when USDA >began collecting the data. Sales at farmers markets will total $1 billion >this year, with most of the money going directly to small family farmers. > > Information on farmers markets, including the National Directory of >Farmers Markets, can be obtained on the web at >www.ams.usda.gov/farmersmarkets >or by calling 800-384-8704. > > # Linda Elswick Washington Representative Community Food Security Coalition From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 26 13:35:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17699 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:35:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA29829; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29611 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:14:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp11.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.111]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA07823 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:13:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00c901beefe6$e12a12a0$6f4b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: <8929097c.24f6b2b0@aol.com> Subject: Re: Seasons, hemispheres, and historical events Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:17:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1619 Well, I'm happy to hear that Santa isn't just some drummed-up Judeo-Christian mythical figure, used to control, conquer & convert the poor pagans & actually has some roots in that culture. Personally, I always found him to be the perfect symbol of Jupiter....of course, any excess can be detrimental (although I never thought of him as toxin-brimming). Not knowing much about Mithras, I did a search on him...found a cool site, The Temple of Mithras...seems like if you're into dieties, idolatry & the like, well, he's not such a bad sort. Anyone holding the the Sword of Truth and Torch of Light can't be all bad! More at: http://www.ncl.ac.uk/~nantiq/mithras/frames.htm The Tammuz/Cybele story reminds me of Ceres/Demeter, Persephone, Pluto...Winter/death, Spring/renewal & the loss of childhood innocence, a grieving mother & resurrection of spirit. Must be part of our collective conciousness, since the story persists, despite time, culture, religeon. Actually, my own disappointment lies not in "growing up with the tissue of {pagan} fables" , but rather that I did not grow up with the entire fabric! So much catching up to do! Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 26 13:35:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17710 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA29915; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:17:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29657 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:15:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp217.cy-net.net [208.21.195.26]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23800; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:18:32 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEEFBA.21719540@FLYLO>; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:57:11 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEEFBA.21719540@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" , "'Agnihotra Richard & Lisa Powers'" Subject: OFF TOPIC: Y2K Microsoft Hoax Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:52:46 -0500 Encoding: 43 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1620 This was the message I was looking for that stated the 'yyyy' fix is a hoax. Apparently it comes directly from Microsoft itself: martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ http://www.microsoft.com/y2k/hoax/y2khoax.htm There is a hoax email in circulation on the Internet concerning the Y2K compliance of Windows 95, Windows 98 and Windows NT. There are various versions of this mail which resemble the text below: "Every copy of Windows will fail on January 1st unless you fix it now, to fix it..." Click on "My Computer". Click on "Control Panel". Click on "Regional Settings". Click on the "Date" tab. Where it says, "Short Date Sample" look and see if it shows a "two Digit" year. Of course it does. That's the default setting for Windows 95, 98 and NT. This date RIGHT HERE is the date that feeds application software and WILL NOT rollover in the year 2000. It will roll over to 00. Click on the button across from "Short Date Style" and select the option that shows mm/dd/yyyy. Be sure your selection has four Y's showing, not two. Click "Apply" and then click on "OK" at the bottom. Easy enough to fix. However, every single installation of Windows worldwide is defaulted to fail Y2K rollover. "Thanks and have a great day" Facts about Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows NT and Y2K... Microsoft Windows 95, Windows 98 and Windows NT are compliant assuming all recommended actions specified in the respective compliance documents have been taken. The steps above are not required actions and do not have to be performed in order to obtain compliance. The short date format style in Regional Settings is a display setting only. Dates are stored and processed by Windows in a 4 digit format regardless of the short date format style selected in Regional settings. Customers can use the regional settings tab to adjust how the date is displayed (e.g. mm/dd/yy or mm/dd/yyyy) In order to avoid ambiguous dates, Microsoft recommends using 4 digit's when entering date data and expanding the date field in regional setting to 4 digits. However this is not required to attain compliance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 26 13:36:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17786 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:36:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00023; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:18:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29669 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:15:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp217.cy-net.net [208.21.195.26]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23786 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:18:28 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEEFBA.1F50D820@FLYLO>; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:57:08 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEEFBA.1F50D820@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: the timings program for year 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:36:08 -0500 Encoding: 22 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1621 For those who use Excel spreadsheets a lot, go to this write up and see if you need to download any 'bug zappers'. It appears that Excel has it's own can of worms installed for Y2K. http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2318285,00.html Most of your macros and formulas are probably not date-sensitive. But, if you have a weekly payroll rollover spreadsheet (for example) it could be wiped come Jan 1. And, somewhere or other, as I was trying to explain to Richard, there is an article stating that moving the date information in the control panel to a 4 digit field won't change anything. Win 95 - 2000 have automatically geared up to recognize the date changes in the OS itself. (SO THEY SAY), there are some simple tests you can do to check your own computer's compliances.(Unless you're using Win 3.1, and you're going to have to upgrade more than that anyhow.) And for the MAC users, they don't seem to be date sensitive at all. At least no one in 'the field' is worrying about them. martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 26 13:42:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17908 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:42:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00513; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00117 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:19:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.010C008F@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:23:19 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 26 Aug 99 13:23:15 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 26 Aug 99 13:22:54 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:22:53 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: placement and time of historical events Priority: normal In-reply-to: <1.5.4.16.19990826110446.328ffc98@swva.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <8CE8222109B@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1622 > Yes, but the _place_ as well as the time was significant. Palestine is a > very special place. It is at the intersection of three continents and the > Dead Sea is the lowest place on earth. Just curious, what is the significance of this? Seems like there's lots of places on the earth that are also intersections of several things or the lowest, highest, or somethingelse-est of some other characteristic. Respectfully, Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 26 14:00:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18309 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01656; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01515 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:35:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp11.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.111]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA12781 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:34:55 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <012601beefe9$ce9bfba0$6f4b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: <199908251838.SAA102430@out5.ibm.net> Subject: Re: Bindweed advice Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:38:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1623 Hi Linda According to Pfeiffer's "Weeds & What they Tell" by E. Pfeiffer, Bindweed belongs to the morning glory (convolvulus) family..."has creeping brittle roots which spread over plants wherever they can. This and the hedge bindweed (C. sepium) are a real pest in grain fields. Usually too wet plowing or disking of a field causes sticky soil conditions and a crusty formation which aids these weeds. Much cultivation, particularly with the duck foot type of weeder & spring tooth harrow will help as well as thick growing crops like soy bean, vetch, field peas, i.e, crops which by means of their roots, maintain humus & produce a crumbly soil. In persistent cases temporary pasture may solve the problem instead of aerable tillage." This is true here, there is none in the pastures, but does grow in the hayfield! Perhaps you could rotate some livestock through your 3 acre plot, and then plant a 'remedy' crop as suggested. Best of luck... Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 26 19:34:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA26977 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28403; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA28230 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.145] ("port 2049"@[148.233.78.145]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FH3008YXFAJC0@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:18:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:25:07 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Seasons, hemispheres, and historical events In-reply-to: <1.5.4.16.19990825140747.081fab16@swva.net> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id TAA28233 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1624 Dear Cheryl, Malcolm, Hugh, Glen, Michael, Anita.....: Thanks very much for following this trend, for me it has being very interesting and helpfull. I am interested in the celebrations and rituals, but I will want to get back to the preps and the rational (not in a positivist way) behind their cosmic influences. As I understand now, from Mr. Gardner and Hugh's posts, the "Christ impulse" is associated to the Sun, and therefore it explains the apparent inconsistency between the preps buryal times and the celebration of the Christmas season in the hemispheres. (Christmas in the sense of the time of the year when the earth is more alive). Further on, the connection between The Christ being and the Sun as well as the macrocosmic nature of Christ is IMHO very clearly stated in R. Steiner lecture "Cosmic Ego and Human Ego" (January 9, 1912, GA 130). : "The Christ was not directly connected with the Earth Evolution, but with the Sun evolution: He was a macrocosmic Being from the beginning of the Earth evolution on,....." As to the effect of the "Christ Impulse"/Sun in the equator; "the tropics", I do not have a clear idea. I am located at 19.19 degrees North (about halfway between NYC and the equator), so that I do not have true equatorial experience. It is interesting to note though, that right in the equator is where most of the rain forests are (Amazon, Borneo, Congo, New Guinea) which IMHO these represent the most outwardly and fragile biomas in earth (summer like permanent conditions; wet, warm, "death"). In oposition we have the poles where there are nearly constant winter like conditions (dry, cold, "alive"). Could this extreme conditions be considered as a permanent balance of forces within earth ?, somehow an archetype ?. Further on and only for the sake of clarification, could it be posible to consider that 500 could be prepared year round in the poles and 501 year round in the equator ? I my own experience and althought I am in the northern hemis.,I tend to rest during the summer-rainy season. The outward manifesttions of life around here are so overwhelming at this time, so destructive in a way, that only a few non perennial crops are produced. If one as a producer adds up the effects of the flooding rains, the outburst of insect life, the little light avail given the cloud cover and the shade from the tree's leaf canopy, the proliferation of weeds, etc, one is left with little to do in practical terms. Just the same as during winter further north. In a way, nature makes us rest here when apparently conditions for exhuberant outward life are met. If what we have here during summer, reflects nearly constant conditions in the equator, then I can understand why culturally the wet season can be taken as winter, but on the other hand, the same wet-hot conditions are met in true northern summers. This "seasonality in the tropics" still puzzles me. Any ideas ? Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Aug 26 20:17:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA27790 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:17:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00755; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:58:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00472 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:55:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.145] ("port 2052"@[148.233.78.145]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FH300MBGHCQNX@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:02:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:11:09 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Seasons, hemispheres, and historical events To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id TAA00473 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1625 My apologies: I just realize that Cheryl said that the wet season is when you bury 501 and during the dry season 500, not as I wrongly stated bellow. So the summer is wet and the winter dry in the equator, just as in most anywhere else. Althought I know I probably should not start this, I can't resist it; the issue makes me wonder, water is associated with the moon and the moon with.....Luciferic beings ? The wet season is then not a very propitious time anywhere to celebrate the coming of Christ to Earth ?. Am I understanding things correctly ? > "If what we have here during summer, reflects nearly constant conditions in >the equator, then I can understand why culturally the wet season can be taken >as winter, but on the other hand, the same wet-hot conditions are met in true >northern summers." Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 27 04:56:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA03918 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 04:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA27291; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 04:36:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA27136 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 04:31:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.210.134.1] (max7-1.stc.net [208.210.134.1]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA03518 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 04:34:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19990825140747.081fab16@swva.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 04:42:58 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Seasons, hemispheres, and historical events Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1626 >I my own experience and althought I am in the northern hemis.,I tend to >rest during the summer-rainy season. The outward manifesttions of life >around here are so overwhelming at this time, so destructive in a way, >that only a few non perennial crops are produced. If one as a producer >adds up the effects of the flooding rains, the outburst of insect life, >the little light avail given the cloud cover and the shade from the tree's >leaf canopy, the proliferation of weeds, etc, one is left with little to >do in practical terms. Just the same as during winter further north. In >a way, nature makes us rest here when apparently conditions for exhuberant >outward life are met. If what we have here during summer, reflects nearly >constant conditions in the equator, then I can understand why culturally >the wet season can be taken as winter, but on the other hand, the same >wet-hot conditions are met in true northern summers. > >This "seasonality in the tropics" still puzzles me. Any ideas ? > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Dear Guillermo, I would still prepare 500, 501 and horn clay in the usual manner by the seasons,even though in Mexico you participate in tropical experiences. Really in the tropics you have these forces strongly expressed or situated so the summer/winter dichotomomy is not only valid for the temporate regions, it also works (even better) for the tropics. Ask your southern neighbor, Henry Karzynkski, how his experience with biodynamics has been in the tropics. According to my recconing it should work better there than in the temsporate regions. BD should work great in the tropics. And the preps should make well there. Follow where the Sun is as a guide. Best, Hugh ***** Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 27 07:21:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05006 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:21:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA00403; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA00290 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 06:58:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.249] (pm3mbr5-166-214.intrepid.net [209.190.166.214]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA08042 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:01:43 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:06:48 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD: OFF: CLIMATE CHANGE: US Burning, Flooding Under Global Warming Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1627 >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 22:30:37 -0400 >From: gary >To: >Subject: US Burning, Flooding Under Global Warming >Reply-To: ggallon@pcstarnet.com >X-PMFLAGS: 10322341.10 >Comments: Authenticated Sender is >Status: U > > > > THE GALLON ENVIRONMENT LETTER > > Canadian Institute for Business and the Environment > 506 Victoria Ave., Montreal, Quebec H3Y 2R5 > Email cibe@web.net, Website http://www.gallon.elogik.com > Vol. 3, No. 23, August 1, 1999 > >************************************************************************** > INTERNATIONAL INTERNATIONAL INTERNATIONAL >************************************************************************** > >CLIMATE CHANGE BURNING PARTS OF THE U.S. > >The greenhouse gas emissions being put up by the oil and gas industries >and the coal fired electricity plants are beginning to sear the United >States and Canada. In the Northeastern United States the land is sweltering >under one of the worst droughts in decades, and relief is nowhere in >sight. Federal weather forecasters warn that climate change related >weather patterns have sent floods to the Northwest and Southwest while >parching the East may last through the winter, with rain coming to drought >stricken areas only as part of an unusually violent hurricane season. >The last time the Northeast had a drought this severe and widespread was >in 1988. Experts from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association >(NOAA) say this may be one of the three worst droughts in the U.S. in >the past 50 years. In Northern Virginia, the weather has not been this dry >since the 1930s. In Maryland yesterday, where the drought is the worst in >30 years, Governor Parris Glendening declared the state's first ever statewide >drought emergency. > >Over the last 365 days, rainfall is down seven to 15 inches in many states. >In June and July, New York City has gotten only 14 percent of its normal >rain. Providence, Rhode Island has had 17 percent, Buffalo, New York, >only 45 percent, and Portland, Maine 41%. The U.S. Geological Survey's >Drought Watch has daily updates of stream flow maps online at the >website http://water.usgs.gov/ Source, WASHINGTON, DC, July 30, 1999 >Environment News Service (ENS) 1999. > >************************************************************** > >STATE OF MARYLAND DECLARES HEAT EMERGENCY > >Governor Parris N. Glendening of Maryland declared his state's >first statewide drought emergency, which included pledges for >financial aid for farmers hard-hit. Within a week the governor expects >to receive recommendations for water-use restrictions from the drought >task force he formed. Rainfall in Baltimore County has been >just under half of normal. Water supplies are still adequate in most >parts of Virginia, which also has a drought task force. Officials >continue to monitor the Potomac. Source, "In Parched Maryland, >Governor Declares Drought Emergency." New York Times, >July 30, 1999. > >************************************************************* > >NEW JERSEY FIGHTS WORST DROUGHT CONDITIONS > >New Jersey is also facing serious global warming induced drought >conditions. Gov. Christine Todd Whitman declared a statewide drought >emergency yesterday after calls for voluntary conservation of water >in New Jersey failed to lessen the demands on the state's dwindling >water supply. Strict rules on outdoor water use, including a prohibition >on the use of lawn sprinklers and filling of resident's swimming pools or >decorative fountains, have been imposed. Governor Whitman warned >that limitations on indoor water use would be imposed if the drought >persists. Source, "To Fight Drought, New Jersey Puts Sharp Limits on >Water Use.", New York Times, August 6, 1999. > >************************************************************* > >REPORT ON BARRIERS TO GREEN TAX REFORM RELATED >TO CARBON TAXES > >You may wish to review the report called, "Social and Political >Barriers to Green Tax Reform, the Case of CO2 Taxes in Norway, >CICERO Policy Note 19995, prepared by the Center for International >Climate and Environmental Research - Oslo. It explores a number of >cases of attempts to tax Norwegian mainland emission intensive >industries during the 1990's. These industries, mainly made up of >aluminum and ferro-alloy producers located in the Norwegian countryside, >and a series of planned gas-powered power stations along the coast, >have enjoyed full exemption from CO2-taxes during a period in which >relatively high CO2-taxes have been imposed on Norwegian consumers >and some other industries. CICERO Policy Note 19995 is available >from Reidar Evensen, Information Officer, CICERO, Center for >International Climate and Environmental Research - Oslo, POB 1129, >Blindern, N-0317 Oslo, Norway Ph. (+47) 22 85 87 84, Fax(+47) 22 85 87 51 >email reidar.evensen@cicero.uio.no CICERO's web site in PDF format >at http://www.cicero.uio.no/~ftp/publications/Policynotes/pn1999-05.pdf >The abstract is available in html >http://www.cicero.uio.no/Publications/Policynotes/pn1999-05.html > >************************************************************* > >NEW DRAFT OF EU ELECTRONICS DIRECTIVE ON LINE > >The European Commission has released an amended Directive on Waste >Electrical and Electronic Equipment (WEEE) (July, 1999), a copy of >which can be found at the web site of the Industry Council for Electronic >Recycling. Among the changes are the lowering of recovery targets >for monitors and TVs to 70% from 85%, the elimination of the 5% >recycled plastic requirement. As yet, there is no target date for >expanding the scope of the Directive to cover small appliances, >radios and TVS, lighting and toys. Visit the >website http://www.icer.org.uk > >************************************************************** > >INTEREST IS GROWING REGARDING THE WTO MEETING IN >SEATTLE IN SEPTEMBER 1999 > >The WTO's 3rd Ministerial Conference, scheduled to be held 30 >November to 3 December 1999 in Seattle, Washington, will launch >the next major world trade negotiations due to start early in 2000. >Ministers and other senior officials from over 150 governments are >expected to attend the four-day meeting at the Washington State >Convention and Trade Center in Seattle. At the last WTO Ministerial >Conference held in May 1998 in Geneva, Switzerland, Ministers >established a process under the WTO General Council to prepare for >the 3rd Ministerial Conference. This process, which has been underway >since September 1998 in Geneva, calls on the General Council to submit >recommendations regarding the WTO's work programme to Ministers, >enabling them to take decisions in Seattle. Based on the General Council's >recommendations, Ministers will announce the organization and management >of the WTO's work programme, including the scope, structure and time- >frames of negotiations to liberalize international trade in sectors such as >agriculture and services. With the count down to Seattle Internet Sites >are springing up like mushrooms. Here are number of the websites, > >World Trade Organization website at http://www.wto.org >WTO Seattle at http://www.wto.org/wto/minist/seatmin.htm >Seattle Business welcomes WTO at http://www.wtoseattle.org >WTO Millennium Round by Green Party http://www.millennium-round.org >Ontario PIRG's MAI-not Project website at http://mai.flora.org >Peoples Global Action (PGA) website at http://www.agp.org >PGA in Seattle http://members.aol.com/mwmorrill/pga.htm >People For Fair Trade website at http://www.peopleforfairtrade.org >Public Citizens Global Trade Watch http://www.tradewatch.org >Seattle Citizen Committee website at http://www.seattlewto.org >Third World Network website http://www.twnside.org.sg/souths/twn/trade.htm >BUND (Friends of the Earth Germany) http://www.snafu.de/~bund or www.bund.net >Friends of the Earth Europe website http://www.foeeurope.org >Trade, Environment and Sustainability http://www.foe.co.uk/foei/tes >Critical Mass, Seattle website at http://www.oz.net/~nic/cm.html > >******************************************************************* > >CORRUPTION IN CHINA CONTINUES TO HARM THE ENVIRONMENT > >One of the problems with implementing major projects to clean up >sewage and install air pollution control devices is the corruption of >civil society, where monies designated for such projects are diverted >to satisfy individual desires for wealth. This has been a problem in >Russia and Indonesia, as the World Bank has pointed out. Now here >is an article in the Washington Post newspaper. A series of government >reports indicate that China's recurrent problem with disastrous flooding >in the Yangtze River valley is not due to Mother Nature, but to bad >management of water control projects, poorly-built dikes and >corruption within the Ministry of Water Resources, which China's >National People's Congress finds to have been diverting millions of >dollars earmarked for flood prevention into stocks and real estate. >Last year more than 4,100 people were killed when the major rivers >in northeastern China broke their banks. A study released this month >by the Forestry Department also found corruption to blame for >endangering attempts to stop illegal logging in seven provinces. Illegal >logging by government and military officials was banned last year in >Sichuan and other provinces because it contributed to flooding and >massive soil erosion. "Corruption Erodes China's River Dikes." >Washington Post, July 30, 1999. > >************************************************************ > >ANTI ENVIRONMENT ALERT ISSUED BY VIRGINIA BASED >CONSERVATIVE THINK TANK > >Right wing think tanks in the United States continue to combat >efforts to protect the environment. They closely with similar Canadian >conservative think tanks like the Fraser Institute in Vancouver. The >following is a special alert sent out by the American Policy Center >(APC) based in Herndon, Virginia, through a mass email program >called "APC Sledgehammer". Issued July 9, 1999, the email alert >attempts to mobilize millions of people on email to blunt the efforts >by President Clinton to provide funds for purchasing sensitive >ecological lands for preservation. The following is the alarm raised by APC. > >"Your Right to Private Property is Being Threatened by Congress. >The Conservation and Reinvestment Act (CARA) is a Billion Dollar >a Year Land Grab of American Citizen's Soil. Both the House and >the Senate of the U.S. Congress have proposed companion bills, >HR 701 and S 25, that will give the Fed's and their green allies over >$1 billion annually to buy private property and put it in federal hands. >Federal agencies, along with thugs like the Nature Conservancy, will >be able to use the funds to pressure unwilling property owners to sell >their land. The bill fits perfectly into the Clinton Administration's >Urban Sprawl land grab. This bill is the most anti-private property and >landowner legislation proposed in years!" > >"We must exert pressure on House and Senate leadership and our >own Congressmen so that this bill dies. Among the numerous >reasons we should oppose CARA are that no private property will be >safe with these funds available, hundreds of small communities in >existing Federal areas will be wiped off the map, Green groups will >seek to designate hundreds of areas of private land as new government >reservations. Environmental groups and big government proponents >are salivating at this opportunity to acquire private property for their >self-serving, detrimental agenda. The Greens recently sent an army of >workers to Capitol Hill to pressure our representatives into supporting >this attack on our constitutional liberties. We must counter their efforts!!!" >Source, American Policy Center, 13873 Park Center Rd. Suite 316, >Herndon, VA 20171, ph. (703) 925-0881, fax (703) 925-0991, email >apc@americanpolicy.org, website http:\\www.americanpolicy.org > >****************************************************************** > CANADA CANADA CANADA CANADA >****************************************************************** > >CEIA EXPLORES IMPLICATIONS OF PENDING TRADE AGREEMENT > >The Canadian Environment Industry Association has invited contributions >to discussions on the implications of a General Agreement on Trade in >Services (GATS). Upcoming GATS negotiations will set the rules for >international trade, and the agreement is expected to have wide-reaching >implications for environmental professionals who are engaged in selling >their services to export markets. The Department of Foreign Affairs and >International Trade is interested in working with the Canadian Environment >Industry Association (CEIA) to explore such issues as determining what >services Canadians are providing to export markets, and how those services >are being provided. For example, are Canadian environmental service >providers penetrating export markets through investment, by personal >visits, or electronically via phone, fax and e-mail? Also, what barriers or >other difficulties have Canadian environmental service exporters encountered? >For example, have there been problems getting personnel or equipment >across borders? Are there regulatory, legal or licensing issues that inhibit >Canadian environmental service providers from working overseas? >Because the GATS proposes to liberalize trade in both directions, >what concerns do Canadian environmental service providers have >regarding the liberalization of trade in services in Canada? In other >words, are there areas of the domestic environmental services market >that Canadians would like to protect? To explore these issues, a joint >teleconferencing meeting of the Canadian Environment Industry >Association (CEIA) National Policy Forum and CEIA's Environmental >Exporters Council is being held on September 17. If you are interested >in participating, please contact Rebecca Last, CEIA Director of Programs >& Policy, at ph. (613) 236-6222 or email info@ceia-acie.ca > >**************************************************** > >GREAT LAKES WATER QUALITY CONFERENCE > >The 1999 Biennial Forum on Great Lakes Water Quality will be >held September 24-26, 1999, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Hosted by >the International Joint Commission (IJC) this forum will provide an >opportunity for key events such as reports from the Great Lakes >Water Quality Boards, public hearings, and the governments' report >on their progress to restore and protect the Great Lakes ecosystem. In >addition to these main events, more than 20 workshops and sessions are >planned on a range of topics from toxics to watershed management and >the use of clean technology. In conjunction with the forum, the first >Great Lakes Environmental Expo will be held to provide the opportunity >for organizations, companies, schools and government to showcase a >variety of special projects, new technology, environmental products and >future plans to maintain and preserve the Great Lakes. For more information >contact the IJC at 519-257-6733; Email commission@windsor.ijc.org; >website at http://www.ijc.org/milwaukee/bienforum.html > >************************************************************************* > >ONTARIO ESTABLISHES FOREST ADVISORY BOARD > >The Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources (MNR) has established >the Ontario Forest Accord Advisory Board (OFAAB). The OFAAB >will be responsible for advising the Minister on implementation of the >Forest Accord, monitoring and commenting on forest management, >including any proposed intensive management practices, effectiveness >and efficiency of guidelines in protecting natural heritage, resolving >disputes and finding ways to better manage the production forest. NGO >members on the Advisory Board include Federation of Ontario Naturalists >(FON) Executive Director Ric Symmes, and Wildlands League Executive >Director Tim Gray. Other members include Don Hopkins of Abitibi- >Consolidated, Craig McManus of Domtar, Jim Lopez of Tembec, John Riley >of the Nature Conservancy and Gail Beggs and Fraser Dunn of MNR. >Two working meetings have been held and the next is planned for September >1999. Proceedings from each meeting will be available and posted on an >MNR Website at http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/ > >********************************************************* > >NEW PAPER CURBSIDE PROGRAM FOR OTTAWA > >Ottawa-Carleton Region in Ontario will launch its new Black Box >curbside recycling program in 210,000 households, dedicated to the >collection of various paper grades (boxboard, corrugated, magazines, >news, telephone directories, fine paper). But, like the City of Orillia, >Ottawa-Carleton has elected to go with a black container because it >can be made almost exclusively (85%) of recycled plastic (from >Norseman Plastics, Inc.). The Region expects the new alternating >collection system (paper one week, containers the next) will reduce >collection vehicles by 30 percent and save $1 million per year. > >A new state-of-the-art paper recycling facility, owned and operated >by WRI --Waste Recycling (Ottawa/Hull) Inc., will take the paper. >With four times the capacity of its old facility, the $4-million plant >can process up to 250 tonnes of various paper grades per day using >"star screen technology" that mechanically sorts heavy from light >and large from small fractions with amazing effectiveness. WRI handles >all the residential paper collected in the Ottawa-Carleton program. For >more information go to the Recycling Council of Ontario website at >http://www.rco.on.ca\wri.html or http://rco.on.ca\wri-facility.html. For >more information, contact Peter McMahon at ph. 613-742-1222. > > ******************************************** > *************************************************************** > > $180.90 ANNUAL SUBSCRIPTION TO > THE GALLON ENVIRONMENT LETTER > >Subscribe to "The Gallon Environment Letter". The 8 to 10 page newsletter is >loaded with up to date business and policy information that your company, >government agency, or organization can use immediately. It is provided twice >a month. It is also accompanied by the "Green Jobs Available Report" that is >sent to you once a month. Subscribe now. Send a cheque for $180.90 a year >($169.00+ $11.90 GST) and help finance the research that delivers inside >information and breaking news on environment business in Canada and the >world. >Make your cheque out to, "Gallon Letter", 506 Victoria Ave., Montreal, >Quebec, >H3Y 2R5. > > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Copyright (c) 1999 Canadian Institute for > Business and the Environment, Montreal > All rights reserved. >xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 27 10:13:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07541 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:13:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07355; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07120 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:51:07 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hTRBa22962 (3858) for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:53:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <811d3dd0.24f7f274@aol.com> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:53:56 EDT Subject: Re: OFF: CLIMATE CHANGE: US Burning, Flooding Under GlobalWarming To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 35 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1628 This site might interest you: "Still Waiting for Greenhouse: A Lukewarm View of Global Warming" http://www.vision.net.au/~daly/ this article in particular: "Have We Got a Climate Catastrophe Just For You ! " http://www.vision.net.au/~daly/banner.htm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 27 17:31:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09817 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:31:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08666; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:12:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08539 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:10:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d155.infoserve.net [199.175.157.155]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA28080 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000801bef0d1$ca58c940$9b9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: OFF/ GEN8-26 Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:19:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1629 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:52 PM Subject: GEN8-26 >GUARDIAN (London) >Thursday August 26, 1999 >Paul Brown, Environment Correspondent > >Ministers shelve GM crop testing for judicial review > >The government has suspended large scale planting of genetically modified >oilseed rape due to start today because it fears the High Court may order >them dug up again. > >The decision was made by the treasury solicitor yesterday after studying >papers which claim that civil servants used administrative short cuts to >rush through licences for large new releases of oilseed rape. > >......... > >Concerns about the herbicide Roundup (Glufosinate) >by Joe Cummins, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus of Genetics, University of >Western Ontario >e-mail: jcummins@julian.uwo.ca > >"The Herbicide, Glufosinate, is used with millions of acres of crops on >crops including corn, canola and soy it causes birth defects on exposure of >father alone as well as mother!" > > I have written a number of previous notes on the danger of the >herbicide ,glufosinate, used with GM and normal crops and false claims by >officials of EU , US and Canada that the herbicide has no harmful side >effects. The previous evidence showed that pregnant females fed food >containing the herbicide gave birth to children with birth defects both >traditional and defects in behavior and learning. Learning defects were >also experienced by young children exposed to the herbicide. > > Recent studies of humans exposed to pesticides showed that fathers exposed >to glufosinate gave birth to children with birth defects while most other >pesticides did not produce that impact (Garcia,A.,Benavides,F.,Fletcher,T. >and Orts,E. "Paternal exposure to pesticides and congenital malformations" >Scand J Work Environ Health 24, 473-80,1998). > > The glufosinate birth defects suggest that the large chemical >companies have undo influence over government bureaucrats . Such >bureaucrats turn their backs on clear evidence of danger from pesticides >and promote dangerous genetic engineering. We must alert the public and >insure that the dangers are made public. > >........ > >Sapporo to shun GM corn, others may follow suit > >August 26, 1999 > >TOKYO, Reuters [WN] via NewsEdge Corporation : Japan's third-largest beer >maker Sapporo Breweries Ltd said on Wednesday it will stop using >genetically modified (GM) corn to make beer, after industry leader Kirin >Brewery Co took the same action the previous day. > >......... > > August 26, 1999 > >LORIENT, France, Reuters [BR] via NewsEdge Corporation : French Farm >Minister Jean Glavany attacked U.S. corporations on Wednesday, accusing >them of trying to monopolise the world's food supply and jeopardising >French agricultural independence. > >"Agriculture is at a historic turning point, the change from of quantity to >those of quality," Glavany told a gathering of Green Party members in this >western French port city. > >"We have many adversaries as we embark on this revolution," the Socialist >minister said. > >"First among them there are obviously the market liberals from across the >Atlantic and their multinationals like Monsanto or DuPont, who have set >themselves the challenge of feeding the world on their own." > >He was referring to U.S. corporations DuPont Co and Monsanto Co, two of the >world's largest seed manufacturers and leaders in the production of >genetically modified grains. > >They are trying "to flood the world with their products, genetically >modified or not, and to spread their own agricultural and food model," he >added. > >......... > >Berkeley Cafeterias Going Organic >Wednesday, August 18, 1999 > >BERKELEY, Calif. (AP) -- Forget about mystery meat. Berkeley's school >cafeterias are going organic. > >The city's school board is expected to approve a plan today that would give >students the option of munching on pesticide-free baby carrots and >sandwiches made with organic bread. > >The food would be grown in school gardens and purchased from local organic >farmers. Milk would be certified clean of bovine growth hormones. > >``That's pretty rare -- and pretty expensive -- but Berkeley is an unusual >place,'' said Rick DeBurgh, who added that he has never heard of schools >serving organic cafeteria fare in his 22 years with the California School >Food Services Association. > >Santa Monica has experimented with a farmer's market salad bar, but >Berkeley wants to serve organic foods in the main dishes and after-school >snacks. The plan also calls for removing irradiated and genetically altered >foods. > >....... > >August 27, 1999 > >Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Pennsylvania via NewsEdge Corporation : > >Aug. 25--In England, where Beanz meanz Heinz, the Pittsburgh-based food >giant has moved swiftly to reassure consumers it doesn't use genetically >modified foods in beans, soups and other products sold there. > >Responding to public outcry against such ingredients, H.J. Heinz early this >year announced it had eliminated genetically modified crops in products it >sells throughout Europe. > >........ > >Honda unit to build U.S. plant for non-GM soybeans >August 26, 1999 > >TOKYO, Reuters [WN] via NewsEdge Corporation : > >Honda Trading Corp, a wholly owned unit of Japanese automaker Honda Motor >Co Ltd <7267.T>, said on Wednesday it will build a plant in the U.S. state >of Ohio for sorting and bagging soybeans free of genetically modified >organisms. > >The company plans to spend 600 million yen for a plant that will start >operation around October with an annual handling capacity of 20,000 tonnes >of soybeans, a spokesman said. > >Soybeans to be sorted and bagged at the plant will come from U.S. farmers >with contracts with Honda Trading for production of non-GM soybeans. for >sale to makers of "tofu" soybean curd. > >This year, Honda Trading has contracts with 118 U.S. farmers, who are >expected to supply 15,000 tonnes of non-GM soybeans to the company, the >spokesman said. > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Aug 27 22:00:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15741 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 22:00:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA11812; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11746 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:40:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.50.58.35] (C61.reach.net [204.50.58.220]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA19156 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:43:59 -0400 Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:43:59 -0400 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Equisetum Arvense tea... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1630 I'm not anywhere near wealthy enough to hire Greg Willis as a viticultural consultant, which is too bad, because he does seem to get results, and does change the way clients approach vineyard work - for the health of us all. So I'm sort of stumbling through to find BD approaches that work in our Ontario vineyard on my own. There are some viticultural BD books from France out there, unfortunately my order seems lost; I may be studying them over the winter, if they show up. I've been brewing equisetum arvense up as a fungicide, to replace some of the sulphur and bordeaux mixture sprays I use (pretty infrequently...we're one of the driest parts of the province, and have little disease pressure compared with Niagara). I've roughtly been following approaches I've noted in Koepf and Pfeiffer. I have to admit, I am impressed. It does seem to work. My grapes - especially the Pinot Noir and Pinot Gris - are amazingly healthy, brilliantly coloured, and ripening well. Instead of buying the dried Horsetail for brewing, I decided I'd explore in our 12 acres of woods, and found lots of it. I harvested carefully, leaving some in each patch, and dried enough for the rest of this year's use. I've used this own-farm harvested Horsetail for two sprays now. It is clearer and less opaque or glutinous than the teas brewed from the purchased Horsetail. But it is working quite well too. The points for discussion I wish to throw out here are: Just how does the Horsetail work as it does, in both BD terms, and if possible (if anyone will tackle this!) scientific terms? The silica concentration in the Horsetail does seem to play a very important role. As I've especially concentrated on spraying the fruit more often than the leaves, I was wondering if the silica was also helping to speed ripening of the fruit and thicken the skins. I believe I've noticed a difference in both, compared to my notes and memories of last summer. Hope this isn't too pedestrian a thread for people on the list. Cheers Geoff Heinricks Prince Edward Co. Ontario, Canada From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 28 01:09:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA18587 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 01:09:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA19684; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:49:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19651 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.161] (c5300shep-172-14.intrepid.net [209.190.172.14]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA32717 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:52:51 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 12:55:50 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1631 >There are some viticultural BD books from >France out there, unfortunately my order seems lost; I may be studying them >over the winter, if they show up. Wow! More info on these please!! Where did you order them from?? Thanks -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 28 12:28:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27489 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:28:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05642; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.clarityconnect.com (smtp.clarityconnect.com [206.64.143.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05518 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from clarityconnect.com (206.64.143.5) by smtp.clarityconnect.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.3d1); Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:07:43 -0400 Received: from dharner.clarityconnect.com (209.150.224.18) by clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.3d2); Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:03:13 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990828121102.006d5920@clarityconnect.com> X-Sender: dharner@clarityconnect.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:11:04 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, ourhouse@nb.net From: Don Harner Subject: Re: Fw: OFF/ GEN8-26 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1632 At 02:19 PM 8/27/1999 -0700, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Richard Wolfson >To: info@natural-law.ca >Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:52 PM >Subject: GEN8-26 > > >>GUARDIAN (London) >>Thursday August 26, 1999 >>Paul Brown, Environment Correspondent >> >>Ministers shelve GM crop testing for judicial review >> >>The government has suspended large scale planting of genetically modified >>oilseed rape due to start today because it fears the High Court may order >>them dug up again. >> >>The decision was made by the treasury solicitor yesterday after studying >>papers which claim that civil servants used administrative short cuts to >>rush through licences for large new releases of oilseed rape. >> >>......... >> >>Concerns about the herbicide Roundup (Glufosinate) >>by Joe Cummins, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus of Genetics, University of >>Western Ontario >>e-mail: jcummins@julian.uwo.ca >> >>"The Herbicide, Glufosinate, is used with millions of acres of crops on >>crops including corn, canola and soy it causes birth defects on exposure of >>father alone as well as mother!" >> >> I have written a number of previous notes on the danger of the >>herbicide ,glufosinate, used with GM and normal crops and false claims by >>officials of EU , US and Canada that the herbicide has no harmful side >>effects. The previous evidence showed that pregnant females fed food >>containing the herbicide gave birth to children with birth defects both >>traditional and defects in behavior and learning. Learning defects were >>also experienced by young children exposed to the herbicide. >> >> Recent studies of humans exposed to pesticides showed that fathers exposed >>to glufosinate gave birth to children with birth defects while most other >>pesticides did not produce that impact (Garcia,A.,Benavides,F.,Fletcher,T. >>and Orts,E. "Paternal exposure to pesticides and congenital malformations" >>Scand J Work Environ Health 24, 473-80,1998). >> >> The glufosinate birth defects suggest that the large chemical >>companies have undo influence over government bureaucrats . Such >>bureaucrats turn their backs on clear evidence of danger from pesticides >>and promote dangerous genetic engineering. We must alert the public and >>insure that the dangers are made public. >> >>........ >> >>Sapporo to shun GM corn, others may follow suit >> >>August 26, 1999 >> >>TOKYO, Reuters [WN] via NewsEdge Corporation : Japan's third-largest beer >>maker Sapporo Breweries Ltd said on Wednesday it will stop using >>genetically modified (GM) corn to make beer, after industry leader Kirin >>Brewery Co took the same action the previous day. >> >>......... >> >> August 26, 1999 >> >>LORIENT, France, Reuters [BR] via NewsEdge Corporation : French Farm >>Minister Jean Glavany attacked U.S. corporations on Wednesday, accusing >>them of trying to monopolise the world's food supply and jeopardising >>French agricultural independence. >> >>"Agriculture is at a historic turning point, the change from of quantity to >>those of quality," Glavany told a gathering of Green Party members in this >>western French port city. >> >>"We have many adversaries as we embark on this revolution," the Socialist >>minister said. >> >>"First among them there are obviously the market liberals from across the >>Atlantic and their multinationals like Monsanto or DuPont, who have set >>themselves the challenge of feeding the world on their own." >> >>He was referring to U.S. corporations DuPont Co and Monsanto Co, two of the >>world's largest seed manufacturers and leaders in the production of >>genetically modified grains. >> >>They are trying "to flood the world with their products, genetically >>modified or not, and to spread their own agricultural and food model," he >>added. >> >>......... >> >>Berkeley Cafeterias Going Organic >>Wednesday, August 18, 1999 >> >>BERKELEY, Calif. (AP) -- Forget about mystery meat. Berkeley's school >>cafeterias are going organic. >> >>The city's school board is expected to approve a plan today that would give >>students the option of munching on pesticide-free baby carrots and >>sandwiches made with organic bread. >> >>The food would be grown in school gardens and purchased from local organic >>farmers. Milk would be certified clean of bovine growth hormones. >> >>``That's pretty rare -- and pretty expensive -- but Berkeley is an unusual >>place,'' said Rick DeBurgh, who added that he has never heard of schools >>serving organic cafeteria fare in his 22 years with the California School >>Food Services Association. >> >>Santa Monica has experimented with a farmer's market salad bar, but >>Berkeley wants to serve organic foods in the main dishes and after-school >>snacks. The plan also calls for removing irradiated and genetically altered >>foods. >> >>....... >> >>August 27, 1999 >> >>Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Pennsylvania via NewsEdge Corporation : >> >>Aug. 25--In England, where Beanz meanz Heinz, the Pittsburgh-based food >>giant has moved swiftly to reassure consumers it doesn't use genetically >>modified foods in beans, soups and other products sold there. >> >>Responding to public outcry against such ingredients, H.J. Heinz early this >>year announced it had eliminated genetically modified crops in products it >>sells throughout Europe. >> >>........ >> >>Honda unit to build U.S. plant for non-GM soybeans >>August 26, 1999 >> >>TOKYO, Reuters [WN] via NewsEdge Corporation : >> >>Honda Trading Corp, a wholly owned unit of Japanese automaker Honda Motor >>Co Ltd <7267.T>, said on Wednesday it will build a plant in the U.S. state >>of Ohio for sorting and bagging soybeans free of genetically modified >>organisms. >> >>The company plans to spend 600 million yen for a plant that will start >>operation around October with an annual handling capacity of 20,000 tonnes >>of soybeans, a spokesman said. >> >>Soybeans to be sorted and bagged at the plant will come from U.S. farmers >>with contracts with Honda Trading for production of non-GM soybeans. for >>sale to makers of "tofu" soybean curd. >> >>This year, Honda Trading has contracts with 118 U.S. farmers, who are >>expected to supply 15,000 tonnes of non-GM soybeans to the company, the >>spokesman said. >> >>** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >>distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** >> >>_________________________________________________________ >>Richard Wolfson, PhD >>Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >>for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >>Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >>500 Wilbrod Street >>Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >>tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >>email: rwolfson@concentric.net >> >>Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >>contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >>genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >>news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >>"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >>__________________________________________________________ >>__________________________________________________________ >> >> >> > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 28 15:20:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29634 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11643; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:02:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09094 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 13:50:26 -0400 (EDT) From: HILAWRIGHT@aol.com Received: from HILAWRIGHT@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hIMa023990 (4225) for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 13:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 13:53:20 EDT Subject: OFF: progress of case against Environmental Protection Agency To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows 95 sub 176 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1633 In February this year I believe IFOAM, Greenpeace and 70 others sued the EPA for the wanton destruction of Bt. Can anyone tell me how this case is progressing? Many thanks Hilary From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 28 16:06:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00542 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13528; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:48:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13372 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:44:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d148.infoserve.net [199.175.157.148]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA13997 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000a01bef18e$fb8e2740$949dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: progress of case against Environmental Protection Agency Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:53:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1634 What does "wanton destruction of Bt" mean? It makes absolutely no sense at all on the surface. Michael -----Original Message----- From: HILAWRIGHT@aol.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, August 28, 1999 12:09 PM Subject: OFF: progress of case against Environmental Protection Agency >In February this year I believe IFOAM, Greenpeace and 70 others sued the EPA >for the wanton destruction of Bt. > >Can anyone tell me how this case is progressing? > >Many thanks >Hilary > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 28 18:21:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02709 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 18:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA18856; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 18:00:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18769 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 17:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts3-13.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.203.77]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA09918 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002f01bef1a0$c43f59a0$71cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <000a01bef18e$fb8e2740$949dafc7@333> Subject: Re: progress of case against Environmental Protection Agency Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:00:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1635 Michael: Hilary will no doubt respond, but my understanding is that the genetic manipulation of potatoes, for instance, to include the Bt [Bacillus thuringensis [sp?] gene in order to foil the Colorado Potato Beetle, these spuds planted on vast acreages, will hasten the well-known phenomenon of Bt resistant beetles...thus destroying the utility for organic growers of more conventional uses of Bt, once the critters are actually seen in the field . Bt, in its several varieties, has been useful against all sorts of foliage-eating larval caterpillars, including cabbage moth, the potato beetle, tomato hornworm, and so forth. The same argument is well used against the wholesale prescription of antibiotics as a quick fix for relatively minor infections...antibiotic resistant microbes are with us. Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Roboz To: Sent: Saturday, August 28, 1999 12:53 PM Subject: Re: progress of case against Environmental Protection Agency > What does "wanton destruction of Bt" mean? It makes absolutely no sense at > all on the surface. Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: HILAWRIGHT@aol.com > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Saturday, August 28, 1999 12:09 PM > Subject: OFF: progress of case against Environmental Protection Agency > > > >In February this year I believe IFOAM, Greenpeace and 70 others sued the > EPA > >for the wanton destruction of Bt. > > > >Can anyone tell me how this case is progressing? > > > >Many thanks > >Hilary > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Aug 28 22:24:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA05657 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 22:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA28202; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 22:04:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28053 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 22:01:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-68.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.68]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA20433 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 12:04:27 +1000 Message-ID: <001301bef1c2$8df13fe0$44431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: FW: NAtural disasters. Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 12:00:13 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEF216.0D579B00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1636 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEF216.0D579B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This information was on a TV Show last night in Australia and I don't = know if it was on in USA, but it is rather interesting when you think of = the terrible weather and natural disturbances you have all been having = in USA. and the predictions that have been made about the end of this = century. "Last night watched a documentary produced by Terry Willesse called = Signs from God. I noted with interest some stats from insurance companies re: = the increase in natural disasters in the 90s, so I recorded them. - One third of natural disasters recorded since 1900s have occurred in 1990s. - The world has an average 700 natural disasters per decade but in the = 90s we've had 2400 already, three times the average. - Not only are natural disasters more frequent, they're also more severe = - 9 of the 10 most costly natural disasters in the US have occurred in the = 90s. - Floods affect 130 million people a year. A 700% increase since the = 70s. - Hurricanes and tornadoes affected six times as many people in the 90s = - a 600% increase. - Four times as many are affected by volcanic eruption - Twice as many by landslides. - Between 1960 and 1989 there was only one year in which there were 1000 = or more tornadoes in the US but in the 90s there has been at least 1000 = every year. Even allowing for increased population, shoddy building techniques, = better media coverage and more people insuring, these figures gave me some food = for thought." I always thought it was just because we get such good world film TV = coverage, that it looked like more disasters were happening, so this = says no, it is actually increasing. Cheryl. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEF216.0D579B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This information was on a TV Show = last night in=20 Australia and I don't know if it was on in USA, but it is rather = interesting=20 when you think of the terrible weather and natural disturbances you have = all=20 been having in USA. and the predictions that have been made about the = end of=20 this century.
 
"Last night watched a documentary produced by Terry Willesse = called=20 Signs
from God.  I noted with interest some stats from insurance = companies re: the
increase in natural disasters in the 90s, so I = recorded=20 them.

- One third of natural disasters recorded since 1900s have = occurred=20 in
1990s.
- The world has an average 700 natural disasters per = decade but=20 in the 90s
we've had 2400 already, three times the average.
- Not = only are=20 natural disasters more frequent, they're also more severe - 9
of the = 10 most=20 costly natural disasters in the US have occurred in the 90s.
- Floods = affect=20 130 million people a year.  A 700% increase since the 70s.
- = Hurricanes=20 and tornadoes affected six times as many people in the 90s - a
600%=20 increase.
- Four times as many are affected by volcanic eruption
- = Twice=20 as many by landslides.
- Between 1960 and 1989 there was only one = year in=20 which there were 1000 or
more tornadoes in the US but in the 90s = there has=20 been at least 1000 every
year.

Even allowing for increased = population,=20 shoddy building techniques, better
media coverage and more people = insuring,=20 these figures gave me some food for
thought."
I always = thought it was=20 just because we get such good world film TV coverage, that it looked = like more=20 disasters were happening, so this says no, it is actually = increasing.
Cheryl.
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEF216.0D579B00-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 29 00:12:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA06931 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 00:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02177; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 23:53:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (root@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca [199.60.222.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02093 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 23:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DialupEudora (eudora@vtn1 [199.60.222.3]) by vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA05404 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:54:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:54:36 -0700 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: klokeid@victoria.tc.ca (Terry J. Klokeid) Subject: Preparation, was, Re: FW: Natural disasters. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1637 >This information was on a TV Show last night in Australia and I don't know >if it was on in USA, but it is rather interesting when you think of the >terrible weather and natural disturbances you have all been having in USA I have no idea about the USA either, but Environment Canada studies show that the global climate change is resulting in an increase of disasters on the order of 10 times as many overall on our planet. Since the climate change, along with the concomittent increase in weather extremes, seems to be the new normal, it would only make sense that we prepare for extreme weather variation, in Canada, Australia, and elsewhere. In the first place, I think this means growing as many different varieties of as many different crops as we can --which also means cooperating with neighbouring farms to grow as many different crops as possible. That is the first level of dealing with disaster. Terry J. Klokeid, Ph.D. Amblewood Organic Farm --vegetable and herb seeds, tubers, & seedlings-- 126 Amblewood Drive, Fulford Harbour, SaltSpring Island BC V8K 1X2 Voice & fax (250) 653-4099 E-mail amblewood@mail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 29 01:29:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA07768 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:29:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA05651; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA05581 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:07:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d161.infoserve.net [199.175.157.161]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA01759 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 22:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <004001bef1dd$adb8fa00$a19dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: NAtural disasters. Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 22:07:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01BEF1A1.B225C140" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1638 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BEF1A1.B225C140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Cheryl, Thank-you for mentioning this. I had thought natural disasters, = which were predicted by many, including Steiner, were more frequent and = more severe lately. Now, I have some stats. Not many people may know = this, but, at the very same moment of the earthquake in Turkey, there = was one in San Fransiso (no damage). It is also interesting to note that the only reason that some people = want to cut down on global warming causing pollutants was sparked by the = insurence industry predicting that they would grow broke through natural = disasters. It was the insurence industry that put pressure on the = Clinton Admin. to appear to do something. It all boils down to = economics.....again. Michael ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BEF1A1.B225C140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Dear = Cheryl,
 
    Thank-you = for=20 mentioning this.  I had thought natural disasters, which were = predicted by=20 many, including Steiner, were more frequent and more severe = lately.  Now, I=20 have some stats.  Not many people may know this, but, at the very = same=20 moment of the earthquake in Turkey, there was one in San Fransiso (no=20 damage).
  It is=20 also interesting to note that the only reason that some people want to = cut down=20 on global warming causing pollutants was sparked by the insurence = industry=20 predicting that they would grow broke through natural disasters.  = It was=20 the insurence industry that put pressure on the Clinton Admin. to appear = to do=20 something.  It all boils down to economics.....again.
Michael
 
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BEF1A1.B225C140-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 29 01:42:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA07863 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:42:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA06087; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:24:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA06022 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.50.58.37] (A26.reach.net [204.50.58.57]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA07256 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:26:28 -0400 Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:26:28 -0400 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id BAA06023 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1639 >>There are some viticultural BD books from >>France out there, unfortunately my order seems lost; I may be studying them >>over the winter, if they show up. > > >Wow! More info on these please!! Where did you order them from?? > >Thanks > >-Allan Allan, from my correspondence with agriinfo, a small book mail order outfit in Quebec - email address included at bottom: " 4. Actually, I know two books that talk about vine in biodynamics. There are in French. - Production biodynamique des fruits et légumes, also available in german, but to my knowledge not in english - VIN DU CIEL À LA TERRE. La viticulture en biodynamie. [The price is 40,25 $] Locana Sansregret AGRI-INFO agriinfo@vega.ivic.qc.ca " Cheers, Geoff Heinricks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 29 06:08:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA10269 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 06:08:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA12055; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 05:51:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA11990 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 05:48:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.172.141] (c5300shep-172-143.intrepid.net [209.190.172.143]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA15689 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 05:52:12 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 17:45:50 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1640 Just after the first of the year ACRES-USA plans to put Nicholas Jollie's (sp?) viticulture book into print in the US in English translation. After the articles in BIODYNAMICS, I'm certainly looking forward to this publication! -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 29 06:09:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA10277 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 06:09:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA12088; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 05:51:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA11995 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 05:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.172.141] (c5300shep-172-143.intrepid.net [209.190.172.143]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA15700 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 05:52:23 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002f01bef1a0$c43f59a0$71cb6cce@netacc.net> References: <000a01bef18e$fb8e2740$949dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 17:49:02 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: progress of case against Environmental Protection Agency Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1641 >The same argument is well used against the wholesale prescription of >antibiotics as a quick fix for relatively minor infections...antibiotic >resistant microbes are with us. These resistant microbes are also the result of the use of antibiotics as 'feed' for livestock and poultry here in the US. -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 29 10:20:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12409 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 10:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17036; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 10:02:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16954 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 10:00:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp45.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.145]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA25715 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 08:59:11 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <009c01bef227$381996c0$914b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: Subject: Re: progress of case against Environmental Protection Agency Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 09:02:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1642 Hi Hilary, Here is the original press release (from Feb.) regarding the Greenpeace/EPA lawsuit. Since we signed on as one of the farmer co-plaintiffs in this case, we receive occasional updates on its progress. Last word was that some large biotech companies have since petitioned the court to be named/included as co-defendants since they have interest in this case. (apparently they feel they have better legal resources than the EPA). As a side note, I am simply thrilled to see that the American Corn Growers Assoc. has just announced this - That rather than get caught up in the 'unanswered questions' that the world is asking & risking being stuck w/unmarketable product...better just to plant non-GMO corn/crops in the upcoming planting season! And they urge seed companies need to keep non-GMO supplies on hand for planting! A small but notable victory on the American bio-ag frontier! Here's that article: Greenpeace & Farmers Sue EPA Over Gene-Altered Crops - 2/18/99 Environmentalists, farmers and consumers filed a lawsuit today to force the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to resolve an issue they say the agency has stalled on for more than a year, risking environmental damage and the loss of the world's most important biological pesticide. In September, 1997, Greenpeace, the International Federation of Organic Agricultural Movements (IFOAM, with 650 member organizations representing farmers, processors, and certifiers in 100 countries),the International Center for Technology Assessment, and over thirty other US organic farming organizations filed a petition urging EPA to withdraw its registration of genetically engineered crops that express the bacterial toxin bacillus thuringiensis (Bt). The groups argued that the long-term environmental impacts of these Bt crops have not been studied, and that the agency's registration of the so-called 'plant pesticides" threatens the future of sustainable agriculture. Today's lawsuit charges EPA with violating numerous federal laws and regulations in failing to respond to the issues raised in the initial complaint. The group of over 70 plaintiffs includes organic farmers from eighteen states, who fear that widespread cultivation of Bt plants will inevitably lead to the rapid development of insect resistance to the Bt toxin. Organic farmers are permitted the use of Bt spray insecticides as their only emergency pest control option, but insect resistance caused by Bt plants would make Bt sprays ineffective. The future viability of organic farming is thus threatened by the agency's approval of Bt crops. "Organic farmers have used Bt responsibly for nearly forty years,"said Jim Gerritsen, a potato grower from Maine, "But transgenic Bt crops will lead to insect resistance within ten years or sooner. My ability to provide consumers with quality, organic produce should not be compromised for the short-term benefit to the biotech industry."At an EPA meeting last month, a Monsanto official announced a voluntary agreement with corn growers for managing insect resistance. Their strategy, which relies on planting non-engineered varieties which act as insect refuges nearby the Bt crops, may delay the onset of resistance, but will not prevent resistance from developing .In addition to the issue of insect resistance, the lawsuit charges that EPA has failed to assess other adverse environmental impacts of Bt crops. Three 1998 studies showed evidence that beneficial insects could be adversely affected by Bt plants. Recent evidence also suggests that Bt toxins from engineered plants can build-up in soils, unlike the natural Bt toxins. Also joining the suit today is a Wisconsin organic food producer who late last year found that genetically engineered corn had contaminated a batch of their organic tortilla chips, resulting in product recalls costing the company upwards of $100,000. Because engineered genes can move through the environment, the threat of contamination is crucial to organic farmers and producers who promise consumers an alternative to genetically engineered food. Terra Prima, Inc., suffered huge losses when its Apache Brands corn chips tested positive for engineered corn, despite tracing the corn to an organic grower in Texas. According to company official Charles Walker, Terra Prima was forced to pull product from stores in seven European countries when the contamination was discovered. "Genetically engineered crops are a threat to farmers, consumers, and the environment," said Kalee Kreider, a Greenpeace Genetic Engineering specialist. "The evidence overwhelmingly backs our concerns, yet the agency refuses to act to protect the environment. We can not rely on voluntary agreements that will at best postpone the inevitable. The court must order the immediate withdrawal of these dangerous crops."The lawsuit demands that the court directs EPA to: 1) cancel the registration of all genetically engineered Bt plants, 2) cease the approval process for any new registrations, and 3) immediately perform a programmatic environmental impact assessment under the National Environmental Policy Act, analyzing the agency's registration of Bt plants. To find out how you can help, please contact: Charles Margulis - Greenpeace Genetic Engineering Campaign 736 West End Avenue #8D New York, NY 10025 (212) 865-5645 ** fax (212) 865-4128** charles.margulis@dialb.greenpeace.org From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 29 11:10:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12946 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 11:10:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18333; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 10:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18296 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 10:51:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d143.infoserve.net [199.175.157.143]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA15336 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 07:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000e01bef22f$3ffa3720$8f9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF/ List of GE products/ tobacco with human genes/ corn with antibiotic genes/ which seeds have GE genes/ Fw: GEN8-27 Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 08:00:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1643 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 7:22 AM Subject: GEN8-27 >Thanks to Patricia Dines <73652.1202@compuserve.com> for posting the >following websites with common questions on GE. > >Patricia Dines says: Please feel free to forward to others who you think >this will interest. > >Here's the address of the page on the UCS site that shows the genetically >engineered (GE) crops OKd for commercial use in the U.S. as of 12/98. (Note >- It is likely that there have been additional crops OK'd this year, as >well as crops being grown under experimental status.) This list is useful >for farmers, gardeners, etc. who want to know what SEEDS might be GE. > >http://www.ucsusa.org/Gene/w98.market.html > >For consumers, who often have questions like "what foods in the SUPERMARKET >might be GE?", is this great page on the Mothers for Natural Law site - > >http://www.safe-food.org/-consumer/foods.html > >As these are common questions, I thought it might be useful to forward the >exact website addresses for this info, so we can save people the time of >trying to find it on their own, getting them right to the pertinent info! > >You might also be interested to know that I have pulled together a longer >and updated list of great GE resources on my website, at >. Please feel free to check it out, >send me any comments you might have, pass the address along to others, >and/or put it on your website. > >Note: A number of the organizations receiving this email will note that >they are included on my GE webpage. Also note that we have a more general >resources page at where you might be >included and which offers more wonderful resources too. > >I hope this information is useful - > >Best regards - > >Patricia Dines >Community Action Publications >http://www.monitor.net/~cap > >............ > >Biotech News, by Richard Wolfson, PhD > >Reprinted with permission from the September 1999 issue of Alive: Canadian >Journal of Health and Nutrition, 7436 Fraser Park Drive, Burnaby, BC V5J >5B9 > >Tobacco with Human Genes > >Tobacco plants with human genes are being grown at Agriculture and >Agri-Food Canada's research station at Delphi, near London, Ontario. The >plants contain the human gene to produce biochemicals for medical purposes. > >The genetically engineered tobacco will soon be grown in fields near the >research station. No one knows the long-term effects on the environment or >what might happen if the biotech tobacco cross-pollinates and the human >gene spreads to other tobacco plants. Another serious concern is the >unknown effect on humans who breathe the pollen containing human genes. If >you are concerned, contact Dr. Jim Brandle at Agriculture Canada. Phone >(519) 663-3326; fax (519) 663-3454; email: brandleje@em.agr.ca. > >Petition for Labelling in USA > >Last June eminent scientists, doctors, public policy experts, industry >leaders, and consumer groups submitted petitions to the US President, >Congress, USDA, FDA, and EPA. The petitions contained over 500,000 >signatures calling for mandatory labelling of genetically engineered foods. > >At the press conference, Dr. Gary Kaplan, Director of the North Shore >University Hospital in New York, explained that inserting genes from other >species into plants for human or animal consumption is dangerously >unpredictable. Dr. Richard Strohman, Professor Emeritus of Molecular and >Cell Biology at the University of California at Berkeley, stated that >scientists are in the dark in considering how to even begin to assess the >long-term effects of genetically modified food. Industry representatives >said that the US industry was losing its European market because European >consumers were not buying GE foods. > >Biotech Corn Kills Antibiotics > >A report by the UK Ministry of Agriculture states that genetically >engineered corn, which contains antibiotic resistance genes, could render >useless eight powerful antibiotics used by doctors to fight fatal diseases, >including typhoid, pneumonia and infections suffered by Aids patients. The >report warns that the antibiotic resistance genes were so powerful that >they could degrade an antibiotic in the human gut in 30 minutes. > >Farmer Destroys Biotech Crops > >Captain Fred Barker, the UK farmer who agreed to having the country's first >large-scale trial of genetically modified crops on his land, has destroyed >these crops with weed-killer. Captain Barker says the trustees of his >family farm in Wiltshire forced him to end the trial because they are >opposed to the biotech crops. Also, they were unhappy that other crops on >the farm would lose their organic status because of the trial. > >UK Women Push For Ban > >IN UK, the National Federation of Women's Institutes, representing more >than 250,000 women, voted overwhelmingly in favour of a five-year >moratorium on genetically engineered foods. They also demanded that the >Government ban imports of genetically engineered foods for the same period, >until consumer safety and environmental concerns have been fully >investigated. In UK, mandatory labelling of genetically engineered foods >has been in effect for months, while major food chains have removed GE >foods from their brands. > >Human Embryo Cloning > >American researchers in the private sector are working to create the >world's first batches of cloned human embryos. One team is trying to clone >embryos that are part human and part cow. The researchers claim they are >not aiming to create full-grown embryos, but rather to grow embryonic cells >for medical research. However, some scientists are concerned that the >research could pave the way to the first cloned babies. > >Dolly's Cells Nine Years Old > >The first molecular studies conducted on Dolly, the three-year-old sheep >cloned from a six-year-old ewe, found that Dolly's cells are, in essence, >at least nine years old. This finding suggests that clones somehow inherit >not only the genes, but in some sense the age of the animals from which >they are made. Scientists have yet to make heads or tails of this result, >which puts the theory and value of cloning into question. > >For further information on biotechnology and its hazards, see the website: >http://www.concentric.net/~Rwolfson/home.html > >........ > >Carl Pope--Sierra Club's executive director--sent this exellent letter to >President Clinton about genetically engineered crops/foods, public health >and environmental impacts. > >=================================================== > >This letter can be widely distributed. >Laurel Hopwood, Sierra Club Biotechnology Task Force Chair > >Dear President Clinton, 8/18/99 > > The Sierra Club, the largest grassroots conservation group in the >United States, is joining the many environmental, consumer, religious, and >community groups concerned with the safety of genetically engineered >organisms (GEOs), particularly in regards to their use in agriculture. Our >purpose is to protect the ecosystem and we believe that the rate of >application of this technology far exceeds our ability to understand the >environmental and public health risks and to avoid potentially serious >impacts. > > The biotechnology industry makes the misleading claim that genetic >engineering is a simple extension of the traditional crossbreeding that >nature and farmers have been using for thousands of years. However, there >is a drastic difference. While conventional breeders face natural barriers >that prevent unrestricted gene transfer between unrelated species, genetic >engineers bypass this protective barrier by combining genes from totally >unrelated species. Furthermore, the technology involved in transferring >foreign genes is imprecise, unstable, and unpredictable, so that engineers >have no way of predicting how GEOs will behave once released into the >environment. > > The Sierra Club calls for: >* Extensive, rigorous research on the potential long term environmental >and health impacts of GEOs before they are released into the environment. >* Use of the precautionary principle, whereby: (1) harm is avoided before >scientific certainty has been established, and (2) the burden of proof is >shifted to those with the power and resources to prevent harm. >* Mandatory environmental impact statements to be made for every >ecosystem into which any new GEO is to be introduced. These should be based >on rigorous science and open public debate. * An end to the concept of >"substantial equivalence" by our regulatory agencies as a ploy to sidestep >safety studies and oversight responsibilities. For example, toxins meant to >kill insects are being genetically engineered into plants, yet the >consequences of these toxins in the diets of humans, livestock, beneficial >insects, and wildlife are unknown. * Mandatory labeling of genetically >altered products after full safety assessment is completed and doing so in >a manner that is easily discernible. All consumers, both citizen and >corporate, should be given the right to chose what they buy. * Removal of >antibiotic resistance genes from all food crops, which are routinely placed >in genetically engineered crops. It is recognized that such extensive use >of antibiotic marker genes is unnecessary and will likely hasten the >development of antibiotic resistant pathogens, depriving us of one of the >most profound accomplishments of 20th century medicine. * U.S. commitment >not to use trade negotiations or agreements to override the rights of >countries to regulate GEOs. The launch of new talks on biotechnology at >the upcoming Seattle Summit of the World Trade Organization should not take >place without thorough, open, and participatory environmental assessments >conducted parallel to the negotiations. >* Full U.S. ratification of the Convention on Biological Diversity, >already ratified by 175 other nations, and forceful leadership to support >its goal of protecting the diversity of life on Earth. Recognition that >biodiversity is not a luxury but a foundation of life on our planet. > > We contend that the risks posed by the current trajectory of >genetic engineering in the field of agriculture are profound. We note that: >* Pollen blowing in the wind or carried by pollinator species can transfer >genetically engineered traits, such as herbicide resistance and pest >resistance, to wild plants. This outward gene flow into nature has the >potential to significantly alter ecosystems and create scenarios that would >pose enormous dilemmas for farmers. >* Pollinator species, such as bees, may themselves be harmed, with >disastrous consequences to the food supply. The killing of Monarch >butterfly larvae by corn pollen genetically engineered to express a >bacterial toxin was discovered after millions of acres of such corn were >planted. This is a dramatic example of adverse secondary effects from a >technology that is inadequately understood. >* The use of Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) toxin engineered into plants will >inevitably hasten the evolution of insect resistance, thus rendering the Bt >bacterium useless to organic farmers as a natural insecticide. > > The Sierra Club calls for the expansion of research into the risks >that recombinant DNA technology and its products pose to the natural >environment. In the meantime, in the absence of scientific knowledge, the >Sierra Club asks that we take a precautionary approach. Until rigorous >research is conducted to discern and address the long term impacts of GEOs, >particularly in regards to their use in agriculture, such organisms should >not be released into the environment. > > Respectfully submitted, > > Carl Pope > >CC: Jane Henney, FDA; Carol Browner, EPA; Dan Glickman, USDA; Jamie >Rappaport Clark, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service; Al Gore, VP of the U.S.; >representatives to Congress and Senate > > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Aug 29 20:49:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22226 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:49:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04971; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:01:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04863 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:00:26 -0400 (EDT) From: HILAWRIGHT@aol.com Received: from HILAWRIGHT@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hRUVa22972 (3989) for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 17:46:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1d090f73.24fb0437@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 17:46:31 EDT Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... and mosquitoes To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows 95 sub 176 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1644 Hi Alan, I visited Nicolas Joly's estate, Clos de la Coulee de Serrant, in 1992. He talked with me for several hours about biodynamics. That was my first exposure to it, and that meeting started me on the path that led me to writing about biodynamic wine and interning here in Hawai'i. He faxed me that he had a book coming out in French but he didn't mention a translation. I can't wait to read it! Can you tell me what the English title will be? Hilary PS To all those who kindly advised me on mosquitoes, my grateful thanks. I'm getting good protective results with an essential oils spray. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 30 03:33:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA25866 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 03:33:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA20114; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 03:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA19843 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 03:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (CVA09-39.swva.net [206.99.244.211]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA12209 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:43:24 -0400 Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:43:24 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990830011405.3167a8de@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1645 At 09:43 PM 8/27/99 -0400, you wrote: [snip] >I've been brewing equisetum arvense up as a fungicide, to replace some of >the sulphur and bordeaux mixture sprays I use (pretty infrequently...we're >one of the driest parts of the province, and have little disease pressure >compared with Niagara). I've roughtly been following approaches I've noted >in Koepf and Pfeiffer. I have to admit, I am impressed. It does seem to >work. My grapes - especially the Pinot Noir and Pinot Gris - are amazingly >healthy, brilliantly coloured, and ripening well. > >Instead of buying the dried Horsetail for brewing, I decided I'd explore in >our 12 acres of woods, and found lots of it. I harvested carefully, >leaving some in each patch, and dried enough for the rest of this year's >use. I've used this own-farm harvested Horsetail for two sprays now. It is >clearer and less opaque or glutinous than the teas brewed from the >purchased Horsetail. But it is working quite well too. That's interesting. Are you quite sure that you have Equisetum arvense? >The points for discussion I wish to throw out here are: Just how does the >Horsetail work as it does, in both BD terms, and if possible (if anyone >will tackle this!) scientific terms? > >The silica concentration in the Horsetail does seem to play a very >important role. As I've especially concentrated on spraying the fruit more >often than the leaves, I was wondering if the silica was also helping to >speed ripening of the fruit and thicken the skins. I believe I've noticed a >difference in both, compared to my notes and memories of last summer. Interestingly enough, Equisetum arvense does _not_ have as much silica as most other common horsetails, but it has much more _sulfate_. And it is the sulfur that relates E. arvense to the kidneys, as Steiner mentions in lec. 6 of the Agriculture Course. The fiery nature of sulfur may well be responsible for the "drying out" (bringing "earthiness" to) the excess water, thus depriving the water of its ability to support fungal growth. And, at the same time, this may indeed support ripening. Silica is certainly prominent in all the horsetails, but let us think also of sulfur's role. >Hope this isn't too pedestrian a thread for people on the list. Not at all. >Cheers >Geoff Heinricks >Prince Edward Co. >Ontario, Canada Sincerely yours, Malcolm Ian Gardner From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 30 20:59:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13601 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 20:59:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA01694; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 20:34:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA01419 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 20:33:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.010E4366@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:44:54 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 30 Aug 99 11:44:49 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 30 Aug 99 11:44:29 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:44:27 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: OFF: economics (was NAtural disasters.) Priority: normal In-reply-to: <004001bef1dd$adb8fa00$a19dafc7@333> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <92CE1AE52B5@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1646 Michael Roboz wrote: > It all boils down to economics.....again. I would like to clarify this. It all boils down to MONEY...again. The fact that "economics" and "money" or "materialism" is often confused and considered interchangeable disturbs me. It's mostly the falt of modern economists, but I would like you all to be better informed than this. Though I have not studied it, it is my understanding that the prolific Steiner also wrote plenty about a differnt economic vision -- one which I assume is not based on materialism. We must then leave room for "economics" to encompass more than just gross materialism. My understanding of "economics" is that it is the study of human behavior and priority setting as measured in measurable terms, for EXAMPLE money. Although most economics uses money as a measure, the measures of this money might be suprising to you. For example, there is the idea of measuring the inverse of money, or how much you "give up" to follow your particular set of priorities. For example, you could be a brain surgeon or a carny hukster and have a pocket full of cash or you could be an farmer with a bank loan. The difference between the debt and the pocket full of cash is the "value" you place on farming. If it were as easy to measure, we could also say that the carnival hukster "gives up" X units of self-respect, moral integrity, and spiritual development in order to have a pocket full of cash. From this perspective, that cash doens't look so valuable after all. Anyway, the true economist is not supposed to make value judgments (cash worthy, spiritual path not worthy), he or she is just supposed to help you understand what you're doing and the cost and benefit of what you do and how efficiently you are doing it. These are concepts I think we can all appreciate as important. I think that its the materialism of economists and the society they live in that makes economics seem so materialistic, not the notion of "economics" itself. We need to change the current materialistic paradigm in economics (and society at large) rather than dismiss economics as just so much materialism. Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 30 21:46:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA15591 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:46:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA07495; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05770 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:13:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.172.7] (c5300shep-172-7.intrepid.net [209.190.172.7]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA12720 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:21:08 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990830011405.3167a8de@swva.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:26:06 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1647 >Interestingly enough, Equisetum arvense does _not_ have as much silica as >most other common horsetails, but it has much more _sulfate_. And it is the >sulfur that relates E. arvense to the kidneys, as Steiner mentions in lec. 6 >of the Agriculture Course. The fiery nature of sulfur may well be >responsible for the "drying out" (bringing "earthiness" to) the excess >water, thus depriving the water of its ability to support fungal growth. >And, at the same time, this may indeed support ripening. Silica is >certainly prominent in all the horsetails, but let us think also of sulfur's >role. Malcolm - It's my current understanding from reading a few field guides that Equisetum arvense is the common horsetail. However, I am dismayed that in one of his lectures, Alan Chadwick speaks of using equisetum to knock fungal problems and stipulate that it must be a variety that DOES NOT have a black edge on the segments. All that I've seen recently - - and all of it fitting my understanding of what arvense is - - has this black edging. I have boiled and stirred this black edged horsetail and feel that it does work. I did notice, however, upon drying, it did not hold its color as well as the stuff I normally get from JPI. However, this could be poor drying technique on this end. (I think some sun got on it the 2nd day.) What's the criteria for selecting horsetail down there at JPI? And while I'm at it, do you think the freshly decocted stuff should only be sprayed on the GROUND and NOT on the plants? Thanks for your input to this. -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 30 21:53:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA15672 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:53:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08646; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:34:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08107 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:31:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip045.computer.net [140.186.252.45]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA02415 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:59:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:57:52 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: August 29, 1999 - September 04, 1999 Message-ID: <23B3666653F3B32D852567DD004CA9CC.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id VAA08112 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1648 Calendar of the Soul [August 29, 1999 - September 04, 1999] Twenty-second Week (September 1-7) The light from world-wide spaces Works on within with living power; Transformed to light of soul It shines into the spirit depths To bring to birth the fruits Whereby out of the self of worlds The human self in course of time shall ripen. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Das Licht aus Weltenweiten, Im Innern lebt es kräftig fort: Es wird zum Seelenlichte Und leuchtet in die Geistestiefen, Um Früchte zu entbinden, Die Menschenselbst aus Weltenselbst Im Zeitenlaufe reifen lassen. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+22 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Aug 30 22:49:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA16677 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:49:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14295; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:30:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA14155 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:28:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.172.14] (c5300shep-172-236.intrepid.net [209.190.172.236]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA10507 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:32:08 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1d090f73.24fb0437@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:37:22 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... and mosquitoes Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1649 >Hi Alan, > >I visited Nicolas Joly's estate, Clos de la Coulee de Serrant, in 1992. He >talked with me for several hours about biodynamics. That was my first >exposure to it, and that meeting started me on the path that led me to >writing about biodynamic wine and interning here in Hawai'i. > >He faxed me that he had a book coming out in French but he didn't mention a >translation. I can't wait to read it! Can you tell me what the English title >will be? > >Hilary >PS To all those who kindly advised me on mosquitoes, my grateful thanks. >I'm getting good protective results with an essential oils spray. I think it's the inocuous "Biodynamic Viticulture," but I could be mistaken. I'm suppose to have a review copy here shortly (overdue!) and we can discuss it in detail here. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 31 01:11:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA18558 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 01:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA23173; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA23064 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:46:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.89] ("port 2052"@[148.233.78.89]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHB00E973ZT0I@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 19:55:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 20:02:38 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: BD Dress Code ? In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Cc: ferdy@direct.ca Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id AAA23065 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1650 Hi: I am just asking this out of pure curiosity, so please do not take it too seriously, I just thought it would be an interesting question. The daughter of a friend of mine is studying "Artistic Therapy" in an Anthroposophical setting in Germany. She came to visit during the summer and when her mother commented that I was interested in BD, she asked why I was not wearing a "large hat" and "oversized baggy clothing" ?. She told me that most BD farmers where she lived use very peculiar clothing while working. This dress code came as a surprise to me because in all the literature I have read and in the three or four years I've being in the BD-Now list, there has'nt being a single reference to this apparently frivolous matter. Please consider that I have not had yet a close encounter with a traditional BD farmer, so that I would enjoy your answers very much. Cheers Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 31 02:22:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA19243 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 02:22:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA25553; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 02:03:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA25487 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 02:02:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-019.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.119]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09357 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:19:05 +1200 Message-ID: <000801bef377$1d1c3c00$77f631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: Seems to be more re Viticulture (!)Equisetum Arvense tea... and mosquitoes Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:07:29 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1651 Dear Allan, I would also be very interested in a copy of Nicholas Joly's book. Please let us all know when and where the English version is available Cheers Gareth -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, 31 August 1999 02:50 PM Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... and mosquitoes >>Hi Alan, >> >>I visited Nicolas Joly's estate, Clos de la Coulee de Serrant, in 1992. He >>talked with me for several hours about biodynamics. That was my first >>exposure to it, and that meeting started me on the path that led me to >>writing about biodynamic wine and interning here in Hawai'i. >> >>He faxed me that he had a book coming out in French but he didn't mention a >>translation. I can't wait to read it! Can you tell me what the English title >>will be? >> >>Hilary >>PS To all those who kindly advised me on mosquitoes, my grateful thanks. >>I'm getting good protective results with an essential oils spray. > >I think it's the inocuous "Biodynamic Viticulture," but I could be >mistaken. I'm suppose to have a review copy here shortly (overdue!) and we >can discuss it in detail here. -Allan > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 31 03:34:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA19717 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 03:34:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA28494; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 03:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA28373 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 03:10:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-90.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.90]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA25210 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:13:59 +1000 Message-ID: <00a901bef380$20c69040$5a431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: NAtural disasters. Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:50:03 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01BEF396.331041E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1652 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BEF396.331041E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Michael and Terry, The friend who sent me the disasters info also sent these other figures = of earthquake activity. As you say Michael, the same time as Turkey, CA = also had a quake and as well so did NZ ! .They even got one on the 19th = August in Melbourne 2-3 on the richter scale (Melbourne has never had = tremors before!) There has also been a lot of volcanic activity (if you = would like that info email me and I will send on, as there is a lot of = pages.) Happy shaking! Cheryl bio@midcoast.com.au=20 >Significant Earthquake Activity > >Global Quakes 4.0 and above >Following is the listing of previously unreported moderate to major = quakes=3D =3D20 >for the past week as reported by USGS, CNSS, AEIC, PNSN, SCECDC, Red = Puma,=3D =3D20 >and other reliable sources, in order of appearance. > >8/17 4.3 Alaska (47.2 km S of Sand Point) >8/18 5.2 Off Coast of Pakistan (correction from previous 5.1 = in=3D20 >Arabian Sea) >8/19 4.5 Peru-Ecuador Border Region >8/19 4.9 Armenia-Azerbaijan-Iran Border Region >8/19 4.8 Turkey >8/19 4.7 Turkey >8/19 5.0 Turkey >8/19 4.9 Tajikistan >8/19 5.0 Kuril Islands >8/19 5.1 E. Russia-NE China Border Region >8/20 4.4 Near Coast of Northern Chile >8/20 4.8 Turkey >8/20 4.7 Turkey >8/20 6.9 Costa Rica >8/20 4.7 Costa Rica >8/20 5.3 Southwestern Montana >8/20 4.4 Black Sea >8/20 4.7 Southern Bolivia >8/20 5.7 Near South Coast of Western Honshu >8/20 4.6 Near Coast of Guatemala >8/20 4.6 Costa Rica >8/21 4.9 Afghanistan-Tajikistan Border >8/21 5.7 Tonga Islands >8/21 4.4 Northern Chile >8/21 5.7 Costa Rica >8/21 5.6 Southwestern Atlantic Ocean >8/22 6.3 Off Coast of Southern Chile >8/22 5.7 Luzon, Philippine Islands >8/22 5.2 Persian Gulf >8/22 6.5 Vanuatu Islands >8/22 5.3 Costa Rica >8/22 4.6 Turkey >8/22 4.4 Kuril Islands >8/22 5.1 Mariana Islands >8/22 5.1 Vanuatu Islands >8/22 5.1 Kermadec Islands, New Zealand >8/23 5.6 Hokkaido, Japan Region >8/23 4.7 South of Honshu, Japan >8/23 4.4 Hokkaido, Japan Region >8/24 4.7 Fiji Islands Region >8/24 4.3 Southern Bolivia >8/24 4.2 Alaska Peninsula >8/24 4.7 Gulf of California >8/24 5.4 Northern Iran > > >Average Quake Numbers, Magnitude, Depth, and Energy Release >(Magnitude 4.0 and above; depth shown is in kilometers) >Date # Mag Depth NRG Release Factor* >8/01 14 5.1 21.7 71.1 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/02 7 4.8 58.5 33.7 ||||||||||||||||| >8/03 6 5.0 38.7 30.2 ||||||||||||||| >8/04 5 4.9 35.8 24.4 |||||||||||| : >8/05 14 4.5 32.0 63.4 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/06 6 4.7 70.7 28.3 |||||||||||||| >8/07 6 4.8 55.1 28.6 |||||||||||||| >8/08 6 4.9 21.5 29.4 ||||||||||||||| >8/09 2 4.8 33.0 9.5 ||||| : >8/10 11 4.7 98.1 51.7 |||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/11 10 4.6 43.4 45.9 ||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/12 10 4.9 33.0 49.3 ||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/13 8 5.2 59.8 41.2 ||||||||||||||||||||| >8/14 4 5.2 41.9 20.6 |||||||||| : >8/15 7 4.9 45.7 34.5 ||||||||||||||||| >8/16 5 4.9 113.8 24.5 |||||||||||| : >8/17 23 5.1 16.7 117.5=3D20 >||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/18 7 5.3 59.7 37.0 |||||||||||||||||| >8/19 8 4.9 21.5 38.9 ||||||||||||||||||| >8/20 11 5.0 51.5 54.8 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/21 5 5.3 61.3 26.3 ||||||||||||| : >8/22 10 5.3 43.5 53.3 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/23 3 4.9 42.0 14.7 ||||||| : >8/24 5 4.7 85.4 23.3 |||||||||||| : (Day's not over yet) > >Average 29.5 ||||||||||||||| > >For the first 236 days of 1999, we've had 1421 reported quakes of=3D20 >magnitude 4.0 and above, averaging 6.02 per day, 4.89 magnitude, 65.4 = km=3D20 >deep, and an average daily Energy Release Factor* of 29.48. For=3D20 >comparison, during the last 5 months of 1998, we averaged 5.4 quakes = per=3D20 >day, 4.8 magnitude, 73.1 km deep, and an Energy Release Factor of 27.1. >* Total magnitude of reported quakes of 4.0 & greater (my own = definition) > > >Locational Analysis of Quakes 4.0 and Above >(from 1/1/99 thru 8/24/99) > >Northern Hemisphere: 1015 71.5% NW Quadrant: 421 29.6% >Southern Hemisphere: 405 28.5% NE Quadrant: 595 41.9% >Eastern Hemisphere: 770 54.1% SW Quadrant: 232 16.3% >Western Hemisphere: 652 45.9% SE Quadrant: 173 12.2% >Total: 1421 Total 1421 > > >U.S., Canada & Other Quakes >(2.8 to 3.9, previously unreported) > >8/11 2.9 Alaska (57.8 km E of Sutton) >8/12 3.4 Alaska (50 km NNE of Stevens Village) >8/17 3.0 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (44 mi S of = Yuma) >8/17 3.5 Alaska (30.7 km SSW of Kantishna) >8/17 3.1 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (45 mi S of = Yuma) >8/17 2.8 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (43 mi S of = Yuma) >8/17 3.9 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (43 mi S of = Yuma) >8/18 3.1 Southern California (19 mi N of Yucca Valley) >8/19 2.8 Alaska (72.9 km E of Akutan) >8/19 3.1 Washington State (40.4 km WSW of Poulsbo) >8/19 3.4 Northwestern Montana >8/19 2.8 Central California (14 mi SSW of New Idria) >8/19 2.8 Nevada (37.3 km SSE of Goldfield) >8/19 3.5 Nevada (34.2 km SSE of Goldfield) >8/19 3.2 Alaska (140.7 km S of False Pass) >8/20 2.8 Nevada (96.2 km NW of Lovelock) >8/20 2.8 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (41 mi S of = Yuma) >8/20 2.8 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (46 mi S of = Yuma) >8/20 3.5 Alaska (95.6 km N of Karluk) >8/20 2.9 Alaska (85.2 km ESE of Seldovia) >8/20 2.8 Alaska (45.7 km E of Pedro Bay) >8/20 3.6 Alaska (125.1 km SSW of False Pass) >8/20 3.0 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (44 mi S of = Yuma) >8/20 3.4 Alaska (58 km ENE of Pedro Bay) >8/20 3.0 Northern California (The Geysers) >8/20 3.1 Nevada (30.1 km SSE of Goldfield) >8/21 3.3 Alaska (74.9 km W of English Bay) >8/21 2.9 Nevada (32.8 km SSE of Goldfield) >8/22 3.4 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (44 mi S of = Yuma) >8/22 3.1 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (46 mi S of = Yuma) >8/22 2.9 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (46 mi S of = Yuma) >8/22 3.0 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (47 mi S of = Yuma) >8/22 2.8 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (45 mi S of = Yuma) >8/22 2.8 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (48 mi S of = Yuma) >8/23 3.3 Southwestern Idaho (9.5 mi SSW of Georgetown) >8/23 2.8 Utah (11.9 mi NNW of Panguitch) >8/23 2.8 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (42 mi S of = Yuma) >8/23 2.9 California-Nevada Border (10 mi SW of Tom's Place) >8/23 3.1 Alaska (66.1 km E of Healy) >8/23 3.1 New Madrid - Tennessee-Missouri Border >8/23 3.1 Central California (1.98 km SW of Ridgeline) >8/23 3.4 Southern Nevada >8/24 3.7 Gulf of California > > >California Quakes >(0.9 and above) >8/01 46 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/02 60 = |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/03 55 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/04 50 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/05 45 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/06 45 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/07 35 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/08 37 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/09 44 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/10 43 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/11 59 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/12 61 = |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/13 44 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/14 35 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/15 43 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/16 37 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/17 68=3D20 >|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >8/18 47 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >9/19 38 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >9/20 35 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >9/21 41 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >9/22 50 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >9/23 41 (Partial data) -----Original Message----- From: Michael Roboz To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, 29 August 1999 3:15 pm Subject: Re: NAtural disasters. =20 =20 Dear Cheryl, =20 Thank-you for mentioning this. I had thought natural disasters, = which were predicted by many, including Steiner, were more frequent and = more severe lately. Now, I have some stats. Not many people may know = this, but, at the very same moment of the earthquake in Turkey, there = was one in San Fransiso (no damage). It is also interesting to note that the only reason that some = people want to cut down on global warming causing pollutants was sparked = by the insurence industry predicting that they would grow broke through = natural disasters. It was the insurence industry that put pressure on = the Clinton Admin. to appear to do something. It all boils down to = economics.....again. Michael ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BEF396.331041E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Michael and Terry,
The friend who = sent me the=20 disasters info also sent these other figures of earthquake = activity.  As=20 you say Michael, the same time as Turkey, CA also had a quake and as = well so did=20 NZ !  .They even got one on the 19th August in Melbourne 2-3 on the = richter=20 scale (Melbourne has never had tremors before!)  There has also = been a lot=20 of volcanic activity (if you would like that info email me and I will = send on,=20 as there is a lot of pages.)
Happy shaking!
Cheryl
 
>Significant Earthquake Activity
>
>Global Quakes = 4.0 and=20 above
>Following is the listing of previously unreported moderate = to major=20 quakes=3D
=3D20
>for the past week as reported by USGS, CNSS, = AEIC, PNSN,=20 SCECDC, Red Puma,=3D
=3D20
>and other reliable sources, in = order of=20 appearance.
>
>8/17    4.3    = Alaska=20 (47.2 km S of Sand Point)
>8/18    = 5.2   =20 Off Coast of Pakistan (correction from previous 5.1 = in=3D20
>Arabian=20 Sea)
>8/19    4.5    Peru-Ecuador = Border=20 Region
>8/19    4.9   =20 Armenia-Azerbaijan-Iran Border Region
>8/19   =20 4.8    Turkey
>8/19    = 4.7   =20 Turkey
>8/19    5.0   =20 Turkey
>8/19    4.9   =20 Tajikistan
>8/19    5.0    Kuril=20 Islands
>8/19    5.1    E. Russia-NE = China=20 Border Region
>8/20    4.4    Near = Coast of=20 Northern Chile
>8/20    4.8   =20 Turkey
>8/20    4.7   =20 Turkey
>8/20    6.9    Costa=20 Rica
>8/20    4.7    Costa=20 Rica
>8/20    5.3    Southwestern=20 Montana
>8/20    4.4    Black=20 Sea
>8/20    4.7    Southern=20 Bolivia
>8/20    5.7    Near South = Coast of=20 Western Honshu
>8/20    4.6    Near = Coast of=20 Guatemala
>8/20    4.6    Costa=20 Rica
>8/21    4.9    = Afghanistan-Tajikistan=20 Border
>8/21    5.7    Tonga=20 Islands
>8/21    4.4    Northern=20 Chile
>8/21    5.7    Costa=20 Rica
>8/21    5.6    Southwestern = Atlantic=20 Ocean
>8/22    6.3    Off Coast of = Southern=20 Chile
>8/22    5.7    Luzon, = Philippine=20 Islands
>8/22    5.2    Persian=20 Gulf
>8/22    6.5    Vanuatu=20 Islands
>8/22    5.3    Costa=20 Rica
>8/22    4.6   =20 Turkey
>8/22    4.4    Kuril=20 Islands
>8/22    5.1    Mariana=20 Islands
>8/22    5.1    Vanuatu=20 Islands
>8/22    5.1    Kermadec = Islands,=20 New Zealand
>8/23    5.6    = Hokkaido, Japan=20 Region
>8/23    4.7    South of = Honshu,=20 Japan
>8/23    4.4    Hokkaido, = Japan=20 Region
>8/24    4.7    Fiji Islands=20 Region
>8/24    4.3    Southern=20 Bolivia
>8/24    4.2    Alaska=20 Peninsula
>8/24    4.7    Gulf of=20 California
>8/24    5.4    Northern=20 Iran
>
>
>Average Quake Numbers, Magnitude, Depth, and = Energy=20 Release
>(Magnitude 4.0 and above; depth shown is in=20 kilometers)
>Date   #  Mag  Depth  NRG = Release=20 Factor*
>8/01  14  5.1   21.7  71.1=20 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/02   7 =20 4.8   58.5  33.7 = |||||||||||||||||
>8/03  =20 6  5.0   38.7  30.2 = |||||||||||||||
>8/04  =20 5  4.9   35.8  24.4 |||||||||||| :
>8/05  = 14  4.5   32.0  63.4=20 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/06   6  = 4.7  =20 70.7  28.3 ||||||||||||||
>8/07   6  = 4.8  =20 55.1  28.6 ||||||||||||||
>8/08   6  = 4.9  =20 21.5  29.4 |||||||||||||||
>8/09   2  = 4.8  =20 33.0   9.5 |||||       =20 :
>8/10  11  4.7   98.1  51.7=20 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/11  10  4.6   = 43.4 =20 45.9 |||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/12  10  4.9  =20 33.0  49.3 |||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/13   = 8 =20 5.2   59.8  41.2 = |||||||||||||||||||||
>8/14  =20 4  5.2   41.9  20.6 ||||||||||  =20 :
>8/15   7  4.9   45.7  34.5=20 |||||||||||||||||
>8/16   5  4.9  113.8  = 24.5=20 |||||||||||| :
>8/17  23  5.1   16.7=20 117.5=3D20
>|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||= ||||
>8/18  =20 7  5.3   59.7  37.0=20 ||||||||||||||||||
>8/19   8  4.9   = 21.5 =20 38.9 |||||||||||||||||||
>8/20  11  5.0   = 51.5 =20 54.8 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/21   5  = 5.3  =20 61.3  26.3 ||||||||||||| :
>8/22  10  = 5.3  =20 43.5  53.3 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/23   = 3 =20 4.9   42.0  14.7 = |||||||      =20 :
>8/24   5  4.7   85.4  23.3=20 ||||||||||||  : (Day's not over=20 yet)
>
>Average       &nbs= p;      =20 29.5 |||||||||||||||
>
>For the first 236 days of 1999, = we've had=20 1421 reported quakes of=3D20
>magnitude 4.0 and above, averaging = 6.02 per=20 day, 4.89 magnitude, 65.4 km=3D20
>deep, and an average daily = Energy Release=20 Factor* of 29.48.  For=3D20
>comparison, during the last 5 = months of=20 1998, we averaged 5.4 quakes per=3D20
>day, 4.8 magnitude, 73.1 km = deep, and=20 an Energy Release Factor of 27.1.
>* Total magnitude of reported = quakes of=20 4.0 & greater (my own definition)
>
>
>Locational = Analysis=20 of Quakes 4.0 and Above
>(from 1/1/99 thru=20 8/24/99)
>
>Northern Hemisphere: 1015  71.5%  NW = Quadrant:=20 421  29.6%
>Southern Hemisphere:  405  28.5%  = NE=20 Quadrant: 595  41.9%
>Eastern Hemisphere:   = 770 =20 54.1%  SW Quadrant: 232  16.3%
>Western = Hemisphere:  =20 652  45.9%  SE Quadrant: 173 =20 12.2%
>Total:         =      =20 1421        =20 Total       = 1421
>
>
>U.S.,=20 Canada & Other Quakes
>(2.8 to 3.9, previously=20 unreported)
>
>8/11    2.9    = Alaska=20 (57.8 km E of Sutton)
>8/12    = 3.4    Alaska=20 (50 km NNE of Stevens Village)
>8/17   =20 3.0    Arizona-California-Baja California Region (44 mi S = of=20 Yuma)
>8/17    3.5    Alaska (30.7 = km SSW of=20 Kantishna)
>8/17    3.1   =20 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (45 mi S of=20 Yuma)
>8/17    2.8   =20 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (43 mi S of=20 Yuma)
>8/17    3.9   =20 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (43 mi S of=20 Yuma)
>8/18    3.1    Southern = California=20 (19 mi N of Yucca Valley)
>8/19    = 2.8   =20 Alaska (72.9 km E of Akutan)
>8/19    = 3.1   =20 Washington State (40.4 km WSW of Poulsbo)
>8/19   =20 3.4    Northwestern Montana
>8/19    = 2.8    Central California (14 mi SSW of New=20 Idria)
>8/19    2.8    Nevada (37.3 = km SSE=20 of Goldfield)
>8/19    3.5    Nevada = (34.2=20 km SSE of Goldfield)
>8/19    3.2    = Alaska=20 (140.7 km S of False Pass)
>8/20    = 2.8   =20 Nevada (96.2 km NW of Lovelock)
>8/20   =20 2.8    Arizona-California-Baja California Region (41 mi S = of=20 Yuma)
>8/20    2.8   =20 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (46 mi S of=20 Yuma)
>8/20    3.5    Alaska (95.6 = km N of=20 Karluk)
>8/20    2.9    Alaska (85.2 = km ESE=20 of Seldovia)
>8/20    2.8    Alaska = (45.7 km=20 E of Pedro Bay)
>8/20    3.6    = Alaska=20 (125.1 km SSW of False Pass)
>8/20    = 3.0   =20 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (44 mi S of=20 Yuma)
>8/20    3.4    Alaska (58 km = ENE of=20 Pedro Bay)
>8/20    3.0    Northern=20 California (The Geysers)
>8/20    = 3.1   =20 Nevada (30.1 km SSE of Goldfield)
>8/21   =20 3.3    Alaska (74.9 km W of English=20 Bay)
>8/21    2.9    Nevada (32.8 km = SSE of=20 Goldfield)
>8/22    3.4   =20 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (44 mi S of=20 Yuma)
>8/22    3.1   =20 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (46 mi S of=20 Yuma)
>8/22    2.9   =20 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (46 mi S of=20 Yuma)
>8/22    3.0   =20 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (47 mi S of=20 Yuma)
>8/22    2.8   =20 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (45 mi S of=20 Yuma)
>8/22    2.8   =20 Arizona-California-Baja California Region (48 mi S of=20 Yuma)
>8/23    3.3    Southwestern = Idaho=20 (9.5 mi SSW of Georgetown)
>8/23    = 2.8   =20 Utah (11.9 mi NNW of Panguitch)
>8/23   =20 2.8    Arizona-California-Baja California Region (42 mi S = of=20 Yuma)
>8/23    2.9    = California-Nevada=20 Border (10 mi SW of Tom's Place)
>8/23   =20 3.1    Alaska (66.1 km E of = Healy)
>8/23   =20 3.1    New Madrid - Tennessee-Missouri=20 Border
>8/23    3.1    Central = California=20 (1.98 km SW of Ridgeline)
>8/23    = 3.4   =20 Southern Nevada
>8/24    3.7    Gulf = of=20 California
>
>
>California Quakes
>(0.9 and=20 above)
>8/01    46 =20 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/02  &nb= sp;=20 60 =20 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/03&= nbsp;  =20 55 =20 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/04 =   =20 50 =20 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/05  = ; =20 45 =20 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/06  &nbs= p;=20 45 =20 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/07  &nbs= p;=20 35  = |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/08   =20 37  = |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/09   =20 44 =20 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/10   = ;=20 43 =20 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/11   = =20 59 =20 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/12&n= bsp;  =20 61 =20 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/13&= nbsp;  =20 44 =20 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/14   = ;=20 35  = |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/15   =20 43 =20 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/16   = =20 37  = |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>8/17   =20 68=3D20
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>8/18   =20 47 =20 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>9/19  &n= bsp;=20 38  = ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>9/20   =20 35  = |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>9/21   =20 41  = |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>9/22   =20 50 =20 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>9/23  = ; =20 41  (Partial data)
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Michael Roboz <mroboz@infoserve.net>
T= o:=20 bdnow@envirolink.org = <bdnow@envirolink.org>
D= ate:=20 Sunday, 29 August 1999 3:15 pm
Subject: Re: NAtural=20 disasters.

 Dear = Cheryl,
 
    = Thank-you for=20 mentioning this.  I had thought natural disasters, which were = predicted=20 by many, including Steiner, were more frequent and more severe = lately. =20 Now, I have some stats.  Not many people may know this, but, at = the=20 very same moment of the earthquake in Turkey, there was one in San = Fransiso=20 (no damage).
  It=20 is also interesting to note that the only reason that some people = want to=20 cut down on global warming causing pollutants was sparked by the = insurence=20 industry predicting that they would grow broke through natural=20 disasters.  It was the insurence industry that put pressure on = the=20 Clinton Admin. to appear to do something.  It all boils down to = economics.....again.
Michael
 
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BEF396.331041E0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 31 06:48:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA20754 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 06:48:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA03912; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 06:18:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA03800 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 06:14:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.172.239] (c5300shep-172-239.intrepid.net [209.190.172.239]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA26530 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 06:18:04 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000801bef377$1d1c3c00$77f631ca@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 18:20:19 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Seems to be more re Viticulture (!)Equisetum Arvense tea... and mosquitoes Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1653 >Dear Allan, >I would also be very interested in a copy of Nicholas Joly's book. >Please let us all know when and where the English version is available >Cheers >Gareth It's being published by ACRES USA. I don't know if they are taking reservations for it, but you might call them and make a reservation. I could see the first edition selling out instantly and there being a long wait for the second. If you do reserve your copy, as always, please tell 'em that BD Now! sent you! Thanks -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 31 10:04:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22893 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12696; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:46:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12488 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.010F1FD1@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 9:46:18 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 31 Aug 99 09:46:11 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 31 Aug 99 09:45:43 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:45:42 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: BD Dress Code ? Priority: normal References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <942E7AC55F1@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1654 I'm guessing that this is a matter of "culture" (in this case, anthro culture -- usually a harkening back to pre-industrial times, natural fibers, "old world" sensibilities) rather than anything actually prescribed. Growing up in a Waldorf school that was next door to the Rudolf Steiner College, we often joked about and made reference to the "purple flowing robes" of people in the anthro community. This is an exageration, but not by much. People in any subculture often develop a certain style which is part of their identification with the group. Even my husband, who is from the Dominican Republic and never heard of Waldorf or Steiner before he met me, has learned to pick out people who look "waldista." However, it is my understanding that teachers (especially women) of you children in the Waldorf school have particular clothing guidelines to follow. I'm sure that this at least influences the "anthro fashion." I'm sure that the anthro addition of Vogue would show a pre-industrial gnome as the season's haute couture for bd farmers. Anita > Hi: > > I am just asking this out of pure curiosity, so please do not take it too seriously, I just thought it would be an interesting question. > > The daughter of a friend of mine is studying "Artistic Therapy" in an Anthroposophical setting in Germany. She came to visit during the summer and when her mother commented that I was interested in > > She told me that most BD farmers where she lived use very peculiar clothing while working. > > This dress code came as a surprise to me because in all the literature I have read and in the three or four years I've being in the BD-Now list, there has'nt being a single reference to this apparent> > Please consider that I have not had yet a close encounter with a traditional BD farmer, so that I would enjoy your answers very much. > > Cheers > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 31 10:25:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23265 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:25:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14050; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:07:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13816 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp249.cy-net.net [208.21.195.58]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21063 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:07:29 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEF388.B060FA80@FLYLO>; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:13:21 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEF388.B060FA80@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: BD Dress Code ? Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:12:28 -0500 Encoding: 19 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1655 >From someone who's not BD but spends a lot of time out in the fields, I also wear a big brim hat. Mine is a canvas canoe hat with the green under-brim. (Could be a 'Tilley', I don't know.) I admit my 'dress code' is whatever I can put on day in, day out that's pretty much bomb proof. It has to be stuff I can just wash and wear, so it has to be all natural material. Synthetics don't breathe. AND, in Texas, you don't want to wear too much of anything. So I put on a tank top and long sleeved cotton / linen blend overshirt. but I do cheat. I wear pajama bottoms. (What else is long enough to cover from the heavy underbrush, thin enough to keep cool in?) Of course, UV protection isn't very much, since designers didn't plan on this application of the clothing. And my shoes of choice are definitely NON-BD! I wear the rubber clogs you see in the gardening magazines a lot. RED of course! I like them because I can step out of them and hose the whole thing out if I've been mucking out stalls. They form fit your feet after a while, and the insole comes out and can be replaced when you wear the cork out. martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 31 13:58:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27148 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01311; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web216.mail.yahoo.com (web216.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.116]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01011 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19990831173640.1698.rocketmail@web216.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.205.40.10] by web216.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:36:40 PDT Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:36:40 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce ritchie Subject: Re: Seems to be more re Viticulture (! To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1656 dear Allan and the group, I have a friend whose family has bought acrage here in Charlottesville Va for vineyards. I am wonderiing if you know of anyone on the east coast who is growiing organic or transitiooonal grapes on this side of the turtle island? I have an impressiooon that vineyards in virginia was pretty much another oone of Jefferson's many unrealistic fantasies, since all of the vineyards that I have visited seem to spray the life out of everythiing with fungicides. I think that my experience in gardening, and particularly hybrid tea roses, has taught me that annual severe droughts, along with almost constant high humidity is the perfect weather for growing fungi, but not perticularly grapes. Can someoone point me to a vineyard/person that might prove me wrong? Where is greg willis doing his work? Thanks for any hints that you all can send me about this issue! Bruce Ritchie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 31 17:20:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03001 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:20:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19206; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:01:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wavecom.net (root@wave.sheridan.wy.us [206.54.116.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19160 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:00:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dbrown (sher21.wavecom.net [206.54.116.106]) by wavecom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA25310 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:02:26 -0600 Message-ID: <001601bef3fd$392739a0$6a7436ce@dbrown.wavecom.net> From: "Audrey Malan" To: "biodynamic list serve" Subject: money Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:07:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEF3C2.8AFB90E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1657 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEF3C2.8AFB90E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This question is really bothering me: why do farmers, and even very = good farmers, make such little money? Are there too many of us? Is = there anywhere in the world where farmers aren't on the bottom rung of = the economy? Or, are there some farmers that are making money, that I = don't know about yet? Are the farmers on this list-serve strapped for = cash? Almost all the farmers and ranchers I know depend on some off-farm = income. I do know one family of 4, small cattle and sheep herd - = fantastically creative with marketing - work their butts off and are = pulling in around $20,000 US per year - not tons, but just enough. Or = is the trick to live on less? Really curious. Audrey ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEF3C2.8AFB90E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This question is really bothering = me:  why=20 do farmers, and even very good farmers, make such little money?  = Are there=20 too many of us?  Is there anywhere in the world where farmers = aren't on the=20 bottom rung of the economy?  Or, are there some farmers that are = making=20 money, that I don't know about yet?  Are the farmers on this = list-serve=20 strapped for cash? Almost all the farmers and ranchers I know depend on = some=20 off-farm income. I do know one family of 4, small cattle and sheep herd = -=20 fantastically creative with marketing - work their butts off and are = pulling in=20 around $20,000 US per year - not tons, but just enough.  Or is the = trick to=20 live on less?  Really curious. Audrey
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEF3C2.8AFB90E0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 31 21:37:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08579 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:37:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18944; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.156]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15835 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 20:47:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bellatlantic.net (client-151-198-141-133.bellatlantic.net [151.198.141.133]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA10837 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 20:49:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37CC786A.34B593F4@bellatlantic.net> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 20:50:51 -0400 From: Judson Chambers Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-compaq (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: economics (was NAtural disasters.) References: <92CE1AE52B5@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1658 Here, here... more is better in this case... Judson "Anita Graf (Staff)" wrote: > Michael Roboz wrote: > > It all boils down to economics.....again. > > I would like to clarify this. It all boils down to MONEY...again. > The fact that "economics" and "money" or "materialism" is often > confused and considered interchangeable disturbs me. It's mostly the > falt of modern economists, but I would like you all to be better > informed than this. Though I have not studied it, it is my > understanding that the prolific Steiner also wrote plenty about a > differnt economic vision -- one which I assume is not based on > materialism. We must then leave room for "economics" to encompass > more than just gross materialism. My understanding of "economics" is > that it is the study of human behavior and priority setting as > measured in measurable terms, for EXAMPLE money. Although most > economics uses money as a measure, the measures of this money might > be suprising to you. For example, there is the idea of measuring the > inverse of money, or how much you "give up" to follow your particular > set of priorities. For example, you could be a brain surgeon or a > carny hukster and have a pocket full of cash or you could be an > farmer with a bank loan. The difference between the debt and the > pocket full of cash is the "value" you place on farming. If it were > as easy to measure, we could also say that the carnival hukster > "gives up" X units of self-respect, moral integrity, and spiritual > development in order to have a pocket full of cash. From this > perspective, that cash doens't look so valuable after all. Anyway, > the true economist is not supposed to make value judgments (cash > worthy, spiritual path not worthy), he or she is just supposed to > help you understand what you're doing and the cost and benefit of > what you do and how efficiently you are doing it. These are concepts > I think we can all appreciate as important. I think that its the > materialism of economists and the society they live in that makes > economics seem so materialistic, not the notion of "economics" > itself. We need to change the current materialistic paradigm in > economics (and society at large) rather than dismiss economics as > just so much materialism. > > Anita > > Anita Graf > 313-F Conner Hall > Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics > University of Georgia > Athens, GA 30602-7509 > (706) 542-1915 phone > (706) 542-0739 fax > agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Aug 31 22:19:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA09261 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:19:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA22950; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22728 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:55:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts3-23.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.203.87]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA21740 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000f01bef41d$85130e00$57cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <001601bef3fd$392739a0$6a7436ce@dbrown.wavecom.net> Subject: Re: money Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:58:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BEF3E2.CD57E2C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1659 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BEF3E2.CD57E2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Audrey: Interesting thread you're starting here! My own predeliction has always been to strive to live on less rather = than make more. The less cash that goes out [or comes in, for that = matter] the less we participate in the Western consumer culture that = bids fair to make slaves of us all and wreck the Planet in the process. = It's all so relative, isn't it? We may complain that we earn so little = while our brethern and sistern in Africa, India and so many other places = would see us as living fabulously wealthy lives. What possible reason = is there to believe that you and I are any more deserving of wealth and = comfort than they? In any case, when all the unsustainable aspects of = our society come tumbling down, possibly all at once, the folks like us = who have the skills and means to grow wholesome food may just climb a = few rungs up that economic ladder you speak of. =20 Woody ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Audrey Malan=20 To: biodynamic list serve=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 3:07 PM Subject: money This question is really bothering me: why do farmers, and even very = good farmers, make such little money? Are there too many of us? Is = there anywhere in the world where farmers aren't on the bottom rung of = the economy? Or, are there some farmers that are making money, that I = don't know about yet? Are the farmers on this list-serve strapped for = cash? Almost all the farmers and ranchers I know depend on some off-farm = income. I do know one family of 4, small cattle and sheep herd - = fantastically creative with marketing - work their butts off and are = pulling in around $20,000 US per year - not tons, but just enough. Or = is the trick to live on less? Really curious. Audrey ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BEF3E2.CD57E2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Audrey:
 
Interesting thread you're starting = here!
 
My own predeliction has always been to strive to = live on less=20 rather than make more.  The less cash that goes out [or comes in, = for that=20 matter] the less we participate in the Western consumer culture = that bids=20 fair to make slaves of us all and wreck the Planet in the process.  = It's=20 all so relative, isn't it?  We may complain that we earn so little = while=20 our brethern and sistern in Africa, India and so many other places would = see us=20 as living fabulously wealthy lives.  What possible reason is there = to=20 believe that you and I are any more deserving of wealth and comfort than = they?  In any case, when all the unsustainable aspects of our = society come=20 tumbling down, possibly all at once, the folks like us who have the = skills and=20 means to grow wholesome food may just climb a few rungs up that = economic=20 ladder you speak of. 
 
Woody
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Audrey Malan=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 = 3:07=20 PM
Subject: money

This question is really bothering = me: =20 why do farmers, and even very good farmers, make such little = money?  Are=20 there too many of us?  Is there anywhere in the world where = farmers=20 aren't on the bottom rung of the economy?  Or, are there some = farmers=20 that are making money, that I don't know about yet?  Are the = farmers on=20 this list-serve strapped for cash? Almost all the farmers and ranchers = I know=20 depend on some off-farm income. I do know one family of 4, small = cattle and=20 sheep herd - fantastically creative with marketing - work their butts = off and=20 are pulling in around $20,000 US per year - not tons, but just = enough. =20 Or is the trick to live on less?  Really curious.=20 Audrey
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BEF3E2.CD57E2C0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 1 01:34:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA21400 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:34:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA02603; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:15:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA02438 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:12:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz ([202.50.81.131]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990901050923.GYLP3442178.mta1-rme@nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz> for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:09:23 +1200 Received: by NT_SVR1 with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:56:01 +1200 Message-ID: <6120A29E7C51D0119E9700805F4C5E8D125282@NT_SVR1> From: Lynne Sheridan To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: FW: money Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:56:00 +1200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id BAA02440 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1660 Thankyou for the "interesting thread," Its funny that no matter what or how much we have, it never seems to be enough to survive on. And yet when times get hard, ie a depression, people still survive. It is possible to manage on less, but it is easier to adjust to managing on more. It takes a considerable courage to make the change from the more to less lifestyle. With the responsiblity of chidren this makes the change even harder. Regards Lynne > ---------- > From: Woody Wodraska[SMTP:woodyw@kootenay.com] > Reply To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 1:58 PM > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Subject: Re: money > > Audrey: >   > Interesting thread you're starting here! >   > My own predeliction has always been to strive to live on less rather > than make more.  The less cash that goes out [or comes in, for that > matter] the less we participate in the Western consumer culture that > bids fair to make slaves of us all and wreck the Planet in the > process.  It's all so relative, isn't it?  We may complain that we > earn so little while our brethern and sistern in Africa, India and so > many other places would see us as living fabulously wealthy lives.  > What possible reason is there to believe that you and I are any more > deserving of wealth and comfort than they?  In any case, when all the > unsustainable aspects of our society come tumbling down, possibly all > at once, the folks like us who have the skills and means to grow > wholesome food may just climb a few rungs up that economic ladder you > speak of.  >   > Woody > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Audrey Malan > To: biodynamic list serve > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 3:07 PM > Subject: money > > > This question is really bothering me:  why do farmers, and even very > good farmers, make such little money?  Are there too many of us?  Is > there anywhere in the world where farmers aren't on the bottom rung of > the economy?  Or, are there some farmers that are making money, that I > don't know about yet?  Are the farmers on this list-serve strapped for > cash? Almost all the farmers and ranchers I know depend on some > off-farm income. I do know one family of 4, small cattle and sheep > herd - fantastically creative with marketing - work their butts off > and are pulling in around $20,000 US per year - not tons, but just > enough.  Or is the trick to live on less?  Really curious. Audrey > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 1 04:11:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA27427 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 04:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA06748; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 03:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA06707 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 03:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-053.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.153]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA08915 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:08:22 +1200 Message-ID: <001c01bef44f$86558d60$99f631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: money Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:56:33 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01BEF4B4.17308920" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1661 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BEF4B4.17308920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is an intriguing question...in my view (at least for the = conventional boys) too much of the farm income is in cost inputs thus = depriving the farmer but also the rural community/economy of the wealth = generated by the land. In the case of BD farmers I find our own = experience is the complication of trying to provide BD product in a = conventional market place requires that in adhereing to the principoles = of both one comprimises the full potential of dollar return. I must say woody is on to it when he says both spending and earning less = are acceptable. Again our own experience is that most interaction with the mainstream = fractional banking economy tends to ultimately drain resources physical = and mental- and spiritual. Cheers=20 ]Gareth.=20 -----Original Message----- From: Audrey Malan To: biodynamic list serve Date: Wednesday, 1 September 1999 09:29 AM Subject: money =20 =20 This question is really bothering me: why do farmers, and even very = good farmers, make such little money? Are there too many of us? Is = there anywhere in the world where farmers aren't on the bottom rung of = the economy? Or, are there some farmers that are making money, that I = don't know about yet? Are the farmers on this list-serve strapped for = cash? Almost all the farmers and ranchers I know depend on some off-farm = income. I do know one family of 4, small cattle and sheep herd - = fantastically creative with marketing - work their butts off and are = pulling in around $20,000 US per year - not tons, but just enough. Or = is the trick to live on less? Really curious. Audrey ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BEF4B4.17308920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is an intriguing question...in = my view (at=20 least for the conventional boys) too much of the farm income is in cost = inputs=20 thus depriving the farmer but also the rural community/economy of the = wealth=20 generated by the land. In the case of BD farmers I find our own = experience is=20 the complication  of trying to provide BD product in a conventional = market=20 place requires that in adhereing to the principoles of both one = comprimises the=20 full potential of dollar return.
 
I must say woody is on to it when he says both = spending and=20 earning less are acceptable.
 
Again our own experience is that most interaction = with the=20 mainstream fractional banking economy tends to ultimately drain = resources=20 physical and mental- and spiritual.
 
Cheers 
]Gareth. 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Audrey Malan <dbrown@wavecom.net>
To:=20 biodynamic list serve <bdnow@envirolink.org>
D= ate:=20 Wednesday, 1 September 1999 09:29 AM
Subject:=20 money

This question is really = bothering me: =20 why do farmers, and even very good farmers, make such little = money? =20 Are there too many of us?  Is there anywhere in the world where = farmers=20 aren't on the bottom rung of the economy?  Or, are there some = farmers=20 that are making money, that I don't know about yet?  Are the = farmers on=20 this list-serve strapped for cash? Almost all the farmers and = ranchers I=20 know depend on some off-farm income. I do know one family of 4, = small cattle=20 and sheep herd - fantastically creative with marketing - work their = butts=20 off and are pulling in around $20,000 US per year - not tons, but = just=20 enough.  Or is the trick to live on less?  Really curious. = Audrey
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BEF4B4.17308920-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 1 05:22:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA27749 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 05:22:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA08649; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 05:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA08570 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 05:00:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-010.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.110]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA11643 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:16:37 +1200 Message-ID: <005301bef459$14979e20$99f631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: Seems to be more re Viticulture (!)Equisetum Arvense tea...and mosquitoes Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:04:52 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1662 Dear Allan, Is there a website or email address, or where do you contact them? Gareth -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, 31 August 1999 10:42 PM Subject: Re: Seems to be more re Viticulture (!)Equisetum Arvense tea...and mosquitoes >>Dear Allan, >>I would also be very interested in a copy of Nicholas Joly's book. >>Please let us all know when and where the English version is available >>Cheers >>Gareth > > >It's being published by ACRES USA. I don't know if they are taking >reservations for it, but you might call them and make a reservation. I >could see the first edition selling out instantly and there being a long >wait for the second. > >If you do reserve your copy, as always, please tell 'em that BD Now! sent you! > >Thanks > >-Allan >igg@igg.com > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 1 06:29:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA28051 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 06:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA10177; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 06:10:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA10105 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 06:08:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.172.80] (c5300shep-172-80.intrepid.net [209.190.172.80]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA32163 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 06:11:46 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <005301bef459$14979e20$99f631ca@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:16:31 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Seems to be more re Viticulture (!)Equisetum Arvense tea...and mosquitoes Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1663 >Dear Allan, >Is there a website or email address, or where do you contact them? >Gareth www.acresusa.com should do it. The book is not announced yet, as far as I know. Eugene Canales' swell 'Small Scale Small Grain Production' (title approx.!) article has appeared in the newest issue of ACRES (which is shipping now) You can read that article on-line by going to www.approtecag.com and clicking on the picture of the man with the reaper (at the top of the page) -Allan igg@igg.com =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 1 09:28:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29529 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 09:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16384; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 09:08:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA16214 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 09:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp267.cy-net.net [208.21.195.76]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA29948 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:09:24 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEF445.C4C63F40@FLYLO>; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 06:46:50 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEF445.C4C63F40@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: money Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 06:43:54 -0500 Encoding: 46 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1664 A good thread. My own take on it isn't especially accurate. We both work outside the farm so the farmstead is 'secondary income' at best. Would be nice if the dairy goats earned their keep but most years, it takes outside income. Why? If I want to buy a replacement animal it costs $200 and up. If I'm going to sell (especially locally), I'm pleased to get $150 for the offspring of those animals. I can't produce the grains it takes to keep milk stock going so I rely on an outside feed dealer. My feed bill per month is equal to one kid sale at least. So I need to produce 12 offspring and have markets for them just to pay the ma-stock's annual grocery bill. And that doesn't include my own labor, hay, electricity to operate the milk parlor, well pump, etc. On the other hand, I rarely buy meat from the store, haven't bought milk or eggs in over 10 years, and some years actually manage to raise a fairly healthy garden. We have some facilities for 'putting up food', also. The tractor and one truck are paid for and the newer one is 'almost' paid up and we have 3 computers that occasionally earn their keep. Of course, the catch22 there is I have to work away from home to pay for these items. We're one of the lucky ones in that we own the land. No rent nor mortgage but many do not own their land outright. so there's that overhead no matter if a crop fails or the bull dies. If we had fancy new equipment we certainly could spend more time out in the fields but we'd also have a fancy new bill to pay, too. Most farmers are owned by their bankers, 'corporate' farming usually can be traced to a board room somewhere well away from the soil itself. And another consideration no one has brought up yet is that dirty word, middleman. A farmer who is working his pastures, row cropping, producing a marketable harvest doesn't have the time to also package and market those things too. So he relies on middleman. I think the culprit very much is the way we (US especially) sees our products. It has to be graded, inspected, stamped, dated, cryosealed, and displayed attractively. Every step along the way is handling and takes another chunk out of the original product worth. I've always marveled at how America will spend millions to campaign (advertise) a worthless product. The less it's actual cost to produce, the more it costs to advertise. (thinking of Coke and Pepsi, a little sugar and water and fizz and look at the advertising that it generates.) And, the differences also include chemical attitudes. More must be better, if the land is worn out, dump more chemicals on it, get more land, get more in debt. Produce more food with less food value and expect to get paid even less for it. So, an organic or biodynamic grower might expect a small rise in his overall pricing, but his ability to produce the huge quantities the ag-chem folk can manufacture is going to be smaller. I'm sure others have had similar thoughts and it'll be interesting to see them brought out in this thread. martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 1 11:46:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02735 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:46:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25612; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:37:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25304 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:34:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-06.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.39]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA06268 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37CD465D.D05A5615@ap.net> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 08:29:33 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: money References: <001c01bef44f$86558d60$99f631ca@computer> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------576A4DBB270F81F4B8C9E2BC" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1665 --------------576A4DBB270F81F4B8C9E2BC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gareth and Yvonne Bodle wrote: > This is an intriguing question...in my view (at least for the > conventional boys) too much of the farm income is in cost inputs thus > depriving the farmer but also the rural community/economy of the > wealth generated by the land. In the case of BD farmers I find our own > experience is the complication of trying to provide BD product in a > conventional market place requires that in adhereing to the > principoles of both one comprimises the full potential of dollar > return. I must say woody is on to it when he says both spending and > earning less are acceptable. Again our own experience is that most > interaction with the mainstream fractional banking economy tends to > ultimately drain resources physical and mental- and > spiritual. Cheers]Gareth. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Audrey Malan > To: biodynamic list serve > Date: Wednesday, 1 September 1999 09:29 AM > Subject: money > This question is really bothering me: why do farmers, and > even very good farmers, make such little money? Are there > too many of us? Is there anywhere in the world where > farmers aren't on the bottom rung of the economy? Or, are > there some farmers that are making money, that I don't know > about yet? Are the farmers on this list-serve strapped for > cash? Almost all the farmers and ranchers I know depend on > some off-farm income. I do know one family of 4, small > cattle and sheep herd - fantastically creative with > marketing - work their butts off and are pulling in around > $20,000 US per year - not tons, but just enough. Or is the > trick to live on less? Really curious. Audrey > Hi Friends! You've just driven yourselves smack, dab, up against the reality of being a "small business person." If you are constantly creative, never give up pushing the envelope, and are fortunate in the harvest, you might still not survive financially JUST doing what you love to do. Few of us are so graced. Accept that farmers are soil ARTISTS. The fortunate few. Graced to become sensitive to the vital energies of the Earth. I did my first large [4000sq. ft.] organic garden this year and it was magic. To really perceive the aroma and glow of healthy growth and observe the interaction of Gods hand on the earth is a blessing beyond price. Do whatever is necessary to preserve this for yourselves. The options are endless. Open your farms to the public. Contact school teachers and invite them and their students to experience a "real" farm. Find a place in your busy schedule to train interns for a fee. They pay you for the experience and knowledge. Involve the parents [potential customers] of the kids who come to visit. Grow an ornamental garden. Start a biodynamic nursery business on your farm. Invite all garden clubs for a biodynamic one day workshop, once every month. Sell them biodynamic produce and lunches. Make biodynamically raised vegi starts available. If at all workable in your area, establish NATURAL PRODUCE farmers markets. If there isn't a Waldorf school in your marketing area figure out how to get one started and grow your own customers. Solicit college interns to assist with these projects. Form your own marketing group. Start a customer's newsletter. Focus on results NOT philosophy. Sell natural, nutrition, TASTE. Include short articles about incredible results of biodynamic processes. Write a continuing series of phamplets about small scale gardening. Submit these articles to publications looking for "filler". Local newspaper, church newsletters, organic gardening club news, etc. Learn about the internet and establish a marketing presence via your own web page. And save the esoterica of radionics, cosmic pipe, etc. for those few are drawn to it. In other words, grow your own market, make knowledge one of the profit centers on the farm, seek to run your business cooperatively with others interested in natural living. " Get by with a little help from your friends! " May the message of GOD reach far and wide and grace you with strength and patience. In Love and Light, and a little marketing too, David/whirlderv@ap.net --------------576A4DBB270F81F4B8C9E2BC Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Gareth and Yvonne Bodle wrote:

 This is an intriguing question...in my view (at least for the conventional boys) too much of the farm income is in cost inputs thus depriving the farmer but also the rural community/economy of the wealth generated by the land. In the case of BD farmers I find our own experience is the complication  of trying to provide BD product in a conventional market place requires that in adhereing to the principoles of both one comprimises the full potential of dollar return. I must say woody is on to it when he says both spending and earning less are acceptable. Again our own experience is that most interaction with the mainstream fractional banking economy tends to ultimately drain resources physical and mental- and spiritual. Cheers]Gareth.
-----Original Message-----
From: Audrey Malan <dbrown@wavecom.net>
To: biodynamic list serve <bdnow@envirolink.org>
Date: Wednesday, 1 September 1999 09:29 AM
Subject: money
 This question is really bothering me:  why do farmers, and even very good farmers, make such little money?  Are there too many of us?  Is there anywhere in the world where farmers aren't on the bottom rung of the economy?  Or, are there some farmers that are making money, that I don't know about yet?  Are the farmers on this list-serve strapped for cash? Almost all the farmers and ranchers I know depend on some off-farm income. I do know one family of 4, small cattle and sheep herd - fantastically creative with marketing - work their butts off and are pulling in around $20,000 US per year - not tons, but just enough.  Or is the trick to live on less?  Really curious. Audrey


Hi Friends!

You've just driven yourselves smack, dab, up against the reality of being a "small business person."  If you are constantly creative, never give up pushing the envelope, and are fortunate
in the harvest, you might still not survive financially JUST doing what you love to do.  Few of us are so graced.

Accept that farmers are soil ARTISTS.  The fortunate few.  Graced to become sensitive to the vital energies of the Earth. I did my first large [4000sq. ft.] organic garden this year and it was magic.  To really perceive the aroma and glow of healthy growth and observe the interaction of Gods hand on the earth is a blessing beyond price.  Do whatever is necessary to preserve this for yourselves.  The options are endless.

Open your farms to the public.  Contact school teachers and invite them and their students to experience a "real" farm.  Find a place in your busy schedule to train interns for a fee.  They pay you for the experience and knowledge.  Involve the parents [potential customers] of the kids who come to visit. Grow an ornamental garden. Start a biodynamic nursery business on your farm. Invite all garden clubs for a biodynamic one day workshop, once every month. Sell them biodynamic produce and lunches. Make  biodynamically raised vegi starts available.  If at all workable in your area, establish NATURAL PRODUCE farmers markets.  If there isn't a Waldorf school in your marketing area figure out how to get one started and grow your own customers. Solicit college interns to assist with these projects.

Form your own marketing group.  Start a customer's newsletter.  Focus on results NOT philosophy.  Sell natural, nutrition, TASTE.  Include short articles about incredible results of biodynamic processes.  Write a continuing series of phamplets about small scale gardening.
Submit these articles to publications looking for "filler".  Local newspaper, church newsletters, organic gardening club news, etc.  Learn about the internet and establish a marketing presence via your own web page.

And save the esoterica of radionics, cosmic pipe, etc. for those few are drawn to it.

In other words, grow your own market, make knowledge one of the profit centers on the farm, seek to run your business cooperatively with others interested in natural living.  " Get by with a little help from your friends! "

May the message of GOD reach far and wide and grace you with strength and patience.
In Love and Light,
and a little marketing too,
David/whirlderv@ap.net
 
  --------------576A4DBB270F81F4B8C9E2BC-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 1 13:42:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05244 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:42:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04639; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04354 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:31:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (ctca146.vthokies.net [206.153.172.146]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA18193 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:21:29 -0400 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:21:29 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990901135232.257fa6a6@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1666 At 09:26 PM 8/29/99 -0400, you wrote: >>Interestingly enough, Equisetum arvense does _not_ have as much silica as >>most other common horsetails, but it has much more _sulfate_. And it is the >>sulfur that relates E. arvense to the kidneys, as Steiner mentions in lec. 6 >>of the Agriculture Course. The fiery nature of sulfur may well be >>responsible for the "drying out" (bringing "earthiness" to) the excess >>water, thus depriving the water of its ability to support fungal growth. >>And, at the same time, this may indeed support ripening. Silica is >>certainly prominent in all the horsetails, but let us think also of sulfur's >>role. > > > >Malcolm - > >It's my current understanding from reading a few field guides that >Equisetum arvense is the common horsetail. However, I am dismayed that in >one of his lectures, Alan Chadwick speaks of using equisetum to knock >fungal problems and stipulate that it must be a variety that DOES NOT have >a black edge on the segments. All that I've seen recently - - and all of it >fitting my understanding of what arvense is - - has this black edging. The only species of horsetail that I know that do not have black edges on the teeth of their nodal sheaths are E. palustre (Marsh Horsetail) and E. pratense (Meadow Horsetail). Both of these species are rather rare--if not endangered--and I would certainly hesitate to harvest them. I have no idea why Alan Chadwick would specify these--or perhaps he got his field marks reversed. What else did he say? Where was he when he said it (East Coast or West Coast)? >I have boiled and stirred this black edged horsetail and feel that it does >work. I did notice, however, upon drying, it did not hold its color as well >as the stuff I normally get from JPI. However, this could be poor drying >technique on this end. (I think some sun got on it the 2nd day.) > >What's the criteria for selecting horsetail down there at JPI? JPI uses commercially imported E. arvense because it is most economical and the quality is very good (well dried!). >And while I'm at it, do you think the freshly decocted stuff should only be >sprayed on the GROUND and NOT on the plants? My understanding is that both here and in Europe the _fermented_ extract is often recommended for soil application (i.e., prophylactically), while the fresh tea is used for plants that have already been affected. I don't know where this distinction originated (certainly not with Steiner), but it may simply be that in an emergency there is no time to wait 10-14 days for the fermented version. The fermented version seems to be Lili Kolisko's contribution; in the agricultural lectures, Steiner simply spoke of making a "fairly strong tea" that would then be diluted and applied to the _soil_ as a "liquid manure." It seems to me that although the symptoms appear on the plants, the basic imbalance is in the soil and should be treated there as early as possible. Malcolm Gardner >Thanks for your input to this. > >-Allan Balliett >igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 1 14:38:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06337 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 14:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10447; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 14:31:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10161 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 14:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.115] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.115]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHE00IP0802IU@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:14:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 12:23:19 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: money In-reply-to: <37CD465D.D05A5615@ap.net> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <001c01bef44f$86558d60$99f631ca@computer> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA10162 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1667 > >Hi Friends! > >You've just driven yourselves smack, dab, up against the reality of being a "small business person." If you are constantly creative, never give up pushing the envelope, and are fortunate >in the harvest, you might still not survive financially JUST doing what you love to do. Few of us are so graced. > >Accept that farmers are soil ARTISTS. The fortunate few. Graced to become sensitive to the vital energies of the Earth. I did my first large [4000sq. ft.] organic garden this year and it was magic. To really perceive the aroma and glow of healthy growth and observe the interaction of Gods hand on the earth is a blessing beyond price. Do whatever is necessary to preserve this for yourselves. The options are endless. > >Open your farms to the public. Contact school teachers and invite them and their students to experience a "real" farm. Find a place in your busy schedule to train interns for a fee. They pay you for the experience and knowledge. Involve the parents [potential customers] of the kids who come to visit. Grow an ornamental garden. Start a biodynamic nursery business on your farm. Invite all garden clubs for a biodynamic one day workshop, once every month. Sell them biodynamic produce and lunches. Make biodynamically raised vegi starts available. If at all workable in your area, establish NATURAL PRODUCE farmers markets. If there isn't a Waldorf school in your marketing area figure out how to get one started and grow your own customers. Solicit college interns to assist with these projects. > >Form your own marketing group. Start a customer's newsletter. Focus on results NOT philosophy. Sell natural, nutrition, TASTE. Include short articles about incredible results of biodynamic processes. Write a continuing series of phamplets about small scale gardening. >Submit these articles to publications looking for "filler". Local newspaper, church newsletters, organic gardening club news, etc. Learn about the internet and establish a marketing presence via your own web page. > >And save the esoterica of radionics, cosmic pipe, etc. for those few are drawn to it. > >In other words, grow your own market, make knowledge one of the profit centers on the farm, seek to run your business cooperatively with others interested in natural living. " Get by with a little help from your friends! " > >May the message of GOD reach far and wide and grace you with strength and patience. >In Love and Light, >and a little marketing too, >David/whirlderv@ap.net Hi David: Just curious, what do you do for a living? Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 1 15:18:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07028 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13018; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12754 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:07:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.172.210] (c5300shep-172-210.intrepid.net [209.190.172.210]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA31076 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:11:26 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 03:15:42 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD: reL:Money string Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1668 >Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 05:49:31 -0600 >From: TED ROGERS >To: bdnow@igg.com >Subject: Money string >Mime-Version: 1.0 > >Allan please forward to the group: most of the posts on this issue >ensuing from a question of why farmers cannot earn a living wage are >based in a material view; I do not criticize material analysis of the problem >this sort of analysis often reveals important truths. However in Steiner's >work on the threefold social order he clearly points out the failure of the >material view of the farmer and farming. My interpretation of his spiritual >view is that the farmer must be viewed as priest, member of a >priesthood, to be revered and supported by the whole community... > >Best, > >Ted Rogers >USDA-Office of Pest Management Policy > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 1 15:40:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07510 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:40:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14909; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA14817 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:30:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.115] ("port 2054"@[148.233.78.115]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHE00DC8AR8E2@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:14:04 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 13:21:43 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... In-reply-to: <1.5.4.16.19990901135232.257fa6a6@swva.net> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id PAA14823 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1669 >My understanding is that both here and in Europe the _fermented_ extract is >often recommended for soil application (i.e., prophylactically), while the >fresh tea is used for plants that have already been affected. I don't know >where this distinction originated (certainly not with Steiner), but it may >simply be that in an emergency there is no time to wait 10-14 days for the >fermented version. The fermented version seems to be Lili Kolisko's >contribution; in the agricultural lectures, Steiner simply spoke of making a >"fairly strong tea" that would then be diluted and applied to the _soil_ as >a "liquid manure." It seems to me that although the symptoms appear on the >plants, the basic imbalance is in the soil and should be treated there as >early as possible. > >Malcolm Gardner Dear Malcolm, Allan..: The very first time I used the horsetail tea, I did not know it was recommended to dry the fresh herb before making the tea. I made the tea within hours of the herb being harvested and it worked amazingly good. Actually the results were so spectacular that it was then when I was hooked into BD. (at the time 508 was the only prep I could make myself and therefore the only one avail to me). Ever since that experience I have used at times the dry form, including some I got from JPI, but I "feel" the fresh herb works much better. Is there any reason why 508 is prepared from dry horsetail, other than convenience ?. Local people here use horsetail as a kidney folk remedy (just as Steiner mentioned in Agriculture) and they make a point in using the fresh herb. To my surprise it is available locally year round from a wetland area near the volcano crater. The other diference I noticed is that the 508 I got from JPI seems to include only the smaller leafs, needles or steams (I do not know the right botanical word here) about one milimeter in diameter, and the herb that I get here includes basically stems (5 milimiters in diameter) with a minority of the small, thinner parts. This diference might be due to the shreding process, but from what I see, it seems that JPI only uses the small, terminal stems. I am right ?, Could you comment on this please ? Thanks for your answers Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 1 17:50:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11681 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:50:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA24269; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24021 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:38:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hQGOa07546 (3876) for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <254a8f57.24fef77e@aol.com> Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:41:18 EDT Subject: Re: OFF: economics (was NAtural disasters.) To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1670 Dear Anita, The "economic sphere" has been so much maligned and misunderstood, and yet I think it is the path of our future salvation. That Monsanto is now following selfish principles and calling it humanity's hope is just a materialistic distortion of what it should be. R.Steiner had a wonderful picture of how society could function. He called it the Threefold Social Order. He also subsequently retreated back into the cultural/educational domain when he found no one understood what he was talking about and, worse, was attacked him for it. The downside was that many anthroposophists henceforth felt the only right way to be was in the cultural/educational sphere, with the model of the non-profit "Foundation" as the only acceptible vehicle of enterprise. Steiner did not say this at all, and as a matter of fact supported companies and shareholding etc. Anyway, as a result of this withdrawal a picture of the true economic realm faded away, with "money" or "banking" in people's minds as its epitome. His Rights or political sphere, with all the ideas of civil and military law, and how people relate equally to one another in community has hardly ever been developed. Now: The cultural sphere is the sphere of liberty - where each one can create after his/her own best insights. However, unless balanced by the other two, this sphere can tend to egotism and groups "splitting," coz each one's ideas are different. Study groups, philosophy and teaching, and creating the idea of the garden and farm; bringing spiritual life to it and drawing spiritual life from it, belong here (the priest). The right's sphere is marked by equality as mentioned above. The economic sphere is that of MAKING A PRODUCT AND RENDERING A SERVICE. As soon as you create the beet for your CSA shareholder, you are in the economic sphere. When you nourish the earth with compost, that is a service -- the economic sphere. Here is where the idea is turned into deed, thinking into willing, with all the aspects of what you can or can't do, legally or practically, in between (Rights - feeling). The servant. The economic sphere is that of brother and sisterhood, where association is needed to produce something, a common goal, rather than one individual idea. It is also seeing what is as yet lacking in the world, or could be done more beneficially, or is needed by many, and setting about doing it. (BD!!) The economic sphere is (or should be) divided into three. Consumption (own needs) Distribution (the middleman - bringing together consumers and producers) and Production (selfless deed - you don't primarily cook or make a product for your own use). Everyone on earth is, in fact, in that sphere most of the time. Money, RSteiner says, is spiritual and flows through all three cultural, rights and economics. It is a sign of health when it flows just right. It is not healthy when it is engorged in one place, or hoarded, or misused. That causes suffering. There's more of course. You'd need a community, schooling, sourcing supplies, providing them, so that one can support the other. It's awfully hard if one is only working out of the one part of it. David, the whirling dervish, put it well in today's post. When enough people see what an incredible potential threefold has, we'll all be in better shape and strongly pulling in the same direction, with a diversity of offerings. Then, one hopes, eventually the gargantuas and huge corporate dinosaurs who now dictate culture, rights AND economics will die out. Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 1 18:12:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12126 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:12:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA26126; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:05:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26006 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.172.210] (c5300shep-172-250.intrepid.net [209.190.172.250]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA03074 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:07:22 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19990901135232.257fa6a6@swva.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 06:12:36 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1671 >Ever since that experience I have used at times the dry form, including >some I got from JPI, but I "feel" the fresh herb works much better. Is >there any reason why 508 is prepared from dry horsetail, other than >convenience ?. It's kind of funny when I think of it, however, my only experience with storing 'green' equisetum resulted in MOLDED equisetum...;-) -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 1 19:31:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13671 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:31:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00884; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:19:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00594 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:16:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (ctca225.vthokies.net [206.153.172.225]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA19246 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:06:50 -0400 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:06:50 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990901193807.4eafd42e@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1672 At 01:21 PM 9/1/99 -0600, you wrote: > >>My understanding is that both here and in Europe the _fermented_ extract is >>often recommended for soil application (i.e., prophylactically), while the >>fresh tea is used for plants that have already been affected. I don't know >>where this distinction originated (certainly not with Steiner), but it may >>simply be that in an emergency there is no time to wait 10-14 days for the >>fermented version. The fermented version seems to be Lili Kolisko's >>contribution; in the agricultural lectures, Steiner simply spoke of making a >>"fairly strong tea" that would then be diluted and applied to the _soil_ as >>a "liquid manure." It seems to me that although the symptoms appear on the >>plants, the basic imbalance is in the soil and should be treated there as >>early as possible. >> >>Malcolm Gardner > > >Dear Malcolm, Allan..: > >The very first time I used the horsetail tea, I did not know it was recommended to dry the fresh herb before making the tea. I made the tea within hours of the herb being harvested and it worked amazingly good. Actually the results were so spectacular that it was then when I was hooked into BD. (at the time 508 was the only prep I could make myself and therefore the only one avail to me). I would be most interested in learning more details about your spectacularly successful initial application of horsetail tea. How long did you boil it? How did you apply it? What plants were involved and what was the problem? And how quickly did the problem clear up? >Ever since that experience I have used at times the dry form, including some I got from JPI, but I "feel" the fresh herb works much better. Is there any reason why 508 is prepared from dry horsetail, other than convenience ?. As far as I know, it is purely convenience. However, at least in the temperate climates, the time of harvest may be significant. When the green shoots are young and actively growing, the silica (and probably also the sulfur) is in a more active form (sol rather than gel) and thus harvesting at this time may be more significant than whether or not the herb is used fresh or dried. >Local people here use horsetail as a kidney folk remedy (just as Steiner mentioned in Agriculture) and they make a point in using the fresh herb. To my surprise it is available locally year round from a wetland area near the volcano crater. > >The other diference I noticed is that the 508 I got from JPI seems to include only the smaller leafs, needles or steams (I do not know the right botanical word here) about one milimeter in diameter, and the herb that I get here includes basically stems (5 milimiters in diameter) with a minority of the small, thinner parts. This diference might be due to the shreding process, but from what I see, it seems that JPI only uses the small, terminal stems. I am right ?, Could you comment on this please ? It sounds to me like your local species is not Field Horsetail (E. arvense), but perhaps the very similar Giant Horsetail (E. telemateia), which has shoots that are about twice as thick as the former. Or perhaps you are comparing dried (shrunken) stems with fresh ones. Malcolm Gardner >Thanks for your answers > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 1 22:18:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15739 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09213; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08322 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:00:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.172.216] (c5300shep-172-216.intrepid.net [209.190.172.216]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA21493; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:04:21 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990901184615.009e4880@pop.mindspring.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 09:42:58 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: BD Viticulture Book, Apple Grower, et al Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1673 I'm ahead of the times and behind the times at the same time as usual. I got this today from Fred Walters of ACRES USA: >Wine from Sky to Earth by Nicolas Joly is now available, cost $24.00 (plus >10% s&h U.S., 20% outside the U.S.) -- order by credit card 1-800-355-5313 >or send to Acres U.S.A., P.O. Box 91299, Austin, TX 78709. It is also >available from the Wine Appreciation Guild in S.F. and can be ordered >through bookstores. I'll be reviewing this when my copy arrives! -Allan Balliett csa@claymont.ort From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 2 04:05:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA21204 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 04:05:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA24116; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 03:58:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA24054 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 03:56:44 -0400 (EDT) From: TaraStarrr@aol.com Received: from TaraStarrr@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hOMLa20495 (4227) for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 03:59:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 03:59:49 EDT Subject: RE: money To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1674 Martha, This is not about this intriguing topic of farming, money, and society, but your goats! I live in Hawai'i and am considering buying a couple of goats to keep the buffalo grass subdued here. I really am just learning all about them. You mentioned how much it cost to pay for your goats per month, because of the grain. Can goats be healthy if they just live off a diet of grass or does their diet need to be supplemented with grains, as well? I am wondering if I am being idealistic about bringing these unique animals to the land and do not realize how much care they need. Thank you! Aloha, Tara From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 2 08:11:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA22709 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:11:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA00576; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:51:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA00480 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:48:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp293.cy-net.net [208.21.195.102]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA10401 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 06:52:01 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEF50A.6287D620@FLYLO>; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 06:14:16 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEF50A.6287D620@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: Off topic, goats in the tropics Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 05:59:33 -0500 Encoding: 24 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1675 Tara: Goats do ok in the tropics with a little extra care. Generally they'll only make up about 10% of their diet in grasses. They're browsers more like deer than grazers like cattle. You'd probably have to supplement diet with palm fronds, banana leaves, fruits, etc. Mine are grained because I am limited on hay and only the penned stock gets dry roughage. The rest have to go out to the fields and graze like goats (horrors). I have 6 yearling milkers who are still growing and producing a good deal of milk. So to keep up body fat and keep encouraging them to produce milk, they get grain fed. In our situation it's good because they're cleaning the fields of vegetation that horses or cattle would avoid while leaving the grass. It won't seem like they're doing anything useful with your grass and weeds then almost instantly, they're gone. Of course, if you're not protective, so will your garden and trees too. You'll have more of a parasite problem since there's no cold weather to break the worm cycle. I think there is a Hawaiian goat keeper on one of my lists, I can find out and get her to post directly to you, pros and cons of raising goats in that particular climate. If you're looking for milkers or wethers for meat, it might take a little longer with no feed concentrates, but not impossible. You may have to be more of a nutritionalist than I am though. martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 2 09:34:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23976 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19541; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:17:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18095 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:13:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0110FFF1@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 9:17:39 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 2 Sep 99 09:17:32 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 2 Sep 99 09:17:06 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:17:00 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Money string Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <9726F513FBB@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1676 >Allan please forward to the group: most of the posts on this issue >ensuing from a question of why farmers cannot earn a living wage are >based in a material view; I do not criticize material analysis of the problem >this sort of analysis often reveals important truths. However in Steiner's >work on the threefold social order he clearly points out the failure of the >material view of the farmer and farming. My interpretation of his spiritual >view is that the farmer must be viewed as priest, member of a >priesthood, to be revered and supported by the whole community... > >Best, > >Ted Rogers >USDA-Office of Pest Management Policy I've been really suprised at the tack this discussion has taken. I would have thought that more people would be supporting a farmer's right to be better compensated. Whoever posted the question in the beginning did, I believe, have a very good point. Farmers just don't usually get compensated nearly enough for the work they do, and not only that, they don't get their fair share of the what is eventually earned with their products in the market place (though farmers on this list may be small enough that most are not using intermediaries, I don't know). In any case, it seems quite clear to me that food in this country is first of all too cheap -- and this isn't just because conventional famers aren't making time-consuming bd preps. Food is too cheap because the big WalMart-style famers do not pay the full cost of the damage that their type of faming does on the environment. If they really paid the cost for all those chems and giant fuel consuming monster machines, their food would be A LOT more expensive, and the market signals would be much different for all farmers. Markets and market signals are all screwed up for a variety of reasons, and the farmers -- especially small, are the ones who suffer most. We don't need to be materialists to recognize this. I don't think farmers are complaining that they can't live in mansions with three car garages and drive new SUVs and wear $100 sneakers (though that may be bothering some of their kids...), but I do think they (you) deserve to live with at least the minimum conforts that this society offers (houses with full utilities, personal transportation, health care, and some personal luxuries like going out to a restaurant or movie once in a while and buying a plane ticket occasionally). Farmers probably work longer and harder than almost anyone else, their (your) product is essential to life (same cannot be said for multi-millionaire Coka Cola dealers), and other people who make a living off your product receive higher incomes. Most farmers already live in material conditions that even the more humble people in the rest of society wouldn't consider. (Seems like every full-time farmer family I've ever visited is living in a house that is only partly constructed -- waiting for time and money to finish it and projects like cars/trucks to be fixed, a barn to be fixed, etc.) It can be so tough going when income is so irratic and uncertain, but bills (taxes, mortgages, loan payments, utilities -- not to mention doctors, vets, dentists, lawyers...) are certain and constant. And there's other issues like retirement funds, school expenses (especially if you want to send your kids to Waldorf!) and cushions for emergencies and unexpected curve balls. I think that farmers have a right to more stability and security. (I think it's really strange that I can have this cushy job that brings in consistent money and allows my husband and me to live comfortably, with security, and something to put aside for retirement or to give to charity or help our family or whatever. I don't think that people who depend on farming only for their income can usuallys say that and yet they work a lot harder, longer hours, less free time with their families, etc.) Material conditions are obviously not the primary concern for most farmers, and they shouldn't be the primary concern for any of us. We can all benefit from living with less and on less and participating less in the manic materialism which surrounds us, but that seems to me besides the point when it comes to farmer's incomes. But I don't have a solution to the farmers' money issue. And from what I see, markets and market signals are not likely to change in the near future. The interesting possiblities I've seen so far have been CSAs, land easements, and of course, farmers markets. It may be hard to get farm income up in the near future, but we could possibly do more to help sustainable farmers reduce costs and insecurities. I would like to hear thoughts about this. Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 2 11:46:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26431 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:46:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03638; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:28:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03558 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:27:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.73] ("port 2049"@[148.233.78.73]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHF001SPUL7YN@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:20:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 08:55:45 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <1.5.4.16.19990901135232.257fa6a6@swva.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA03559 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1677 >>Ever since that experience I have used at times the dry form, including >>some I got from JPI, but I "feel" the fresh herb works much better. Is >>there any reason why 508 is prepared from dry horsetail, other than >>convenience ?. > >It's kind of funny when I think of it, however, my only experience with >storing 'green' equisetum resulted in MOLDED equisetum...;-) > >-Allan Dear Allan: I do not store green horsetail, I have dry out the herb just to have some in stock, but normally I just buy it and use it freshly cut from an old lady that supports herself exclusively from collecting and selling horsetail. This stuff is so popular that this woman sells door to door, three times a week, in the small town where I live. Cheers Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 2 11:53:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26542 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:53:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04102; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:35:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04030 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:34:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.204.214]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:38:34 +0100 Message-ID: <002601bef559$4a15f500$d6cc2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: Subject: Re: money string Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:38:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEF561.89B49A60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1678 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEF561.89B49A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends outside Britain may like to hear of two recent developments = which might not have been covered by their local news media: 1. The prices which livestock farmers get at market for bull calves = and culled sheep have fallen so low that, after the selling commission = has been subtracted, they get less than the cost of taking the beasts to = market. Most milk consumers probably don't realise that a cow has to be = mated and give birth to maintain her output and, with the BSE problem, = there is no demand for bull calves. As a demonstration, a few farmers = have resorted to delivering unwanted calves to animal refuges or = abandoning them in telephone booths (a calf will fit into one of our = old-fashioned down-to-the-ground booths) with "please help me" labels; = as they're not tagged they are quite useless and have been put down. = Hill sheep farmers are apparently going to lose subsidy shortly and the = market for sheepskins and older sheepmeat (mainly former USSR) has = collapsed. Again, Welsh farmers have delivered several hundred sheep to = an animal sanctuary, invoking the procedure usually used by the RSPCA = (humane society) for transferring the ownership of domestic pets from = people who, for one reason or another, can no longer look after them. = I've not heard of the fate these sheep will face, but the society is = furious that its small patch of land is now grossly overloaded. How are = such farmers coping elsewhere in the world ? New Zealand is noted for = its sheep and I understood that farming has not been subsidised there = for several years. 2. Sainsbury's supermarkets, basking in the glory of having = eliminated GM ingredients from all its own-brand products, has announced = that, to counter claims that its profit margins are too high, it will = experimentally label some lines (including meat ?) with the price at = which they were bought in, as well as the sale price. This sounds good, = but I guess it won't reveal what the farmer got and what the = middleman/men added on ! Tony N-S. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEF561.89B49A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Friends outside = Britain may like=20 to hear of two recent developments which might not have been covered by = their=20 local news media:
    1.  The prices = which=20 livestock farmers get at market for bull calves and culled sheep have = fallen so=20 low that, after the selling commission has been subtracted, they get = less than=20 the cost of taking the beasts to market.  Most milk consumers = probably=20 don't realise that a cow has to be mated and give birth to maintain her = output=20 and, with the BSE problem, there is no demand for bull calves.  As = a=20 demonstration, a few farmers have resorted to delivering unwanted calves = to=20 animal refuges or abandoning them in telephone booths (a calf will fit = into one=20 of our old-fashioned down-to-the-ground booths) with "please help me"=20 labels;  as they're not tagged they are quite useless and have been = put=20 down.  Hill sheep farmers are apparently going to lose subsidy = shortly and=20 the market for sheepskins and older sheepmeat (mainly former USSR) has=20 collapsed. Again, Welsh farmers have delivered several hundred sheep to = an=20 animal sanctuary, invoking the procedure usually used by the RSPCA = (humane=20 society) for transferring the ownership of domestic pets from people = who, for=20 one reason or another, can no longer look after them.  I've not = heard of=20 the fate these sheep will face, but the society is furious that its = small patch=20 of land is now grossly overloaded.  How are such farmers coping = elsewhere=20 in the world ?  New Zealand is noted for its sheep and I understood = that=20 farming has not been subsidised there for several years.
    2.  Sainsbury's = supermarkets, basking in the glory of having eliminated GM ingredients = from all=20 its own-brand products, has announced that, to counter claims that its = profit=20 margins are too high, it will experimentally label some lines (including = meat ?)=20 with the price at which they were bought in, as well as the sale = price. =20 This sounds good, but I guess it won't reveal what the farmer got = and what=20 the middleman/men added on=20 !            =  =20 Tony N-S.
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =  =20
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEF561.89B49A60-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 2 18:23:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04534 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03517; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:05:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA29631 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 17:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.51] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.51]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHG008LPBGNHO@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:24:41 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:31:21 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: money/ Robinson Crusoe In-reply-to: <000f01bef41d$85130e00$57cb6cce@netacc.net> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <001601bef3fd$392739a0$6a7436ce@dbrown.wavecom.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id RAA29634 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1679 In any case, when all the unsustainable aspects of our society come tumbling down, possibly all at once, the folks like us who have the skills and means to grow wholesome food may just climb a few rungs up that economic ladder you speak of. Woody > Hi Woody: The other day I ran into an RS statement: "The greatest damage is done when what is poured into a child's soul induces the child to develop merely materialistically latter in life. This trend has been on the increase for several centuries. Ahriman has even inspired one of the great British writers to compose a work that is calculated to impress the child's soul materialistically. The intent is hardly noticeable because ordinarily, one does not see this as preparatory to a materialistic orientation. The work I am talking about is Robinson Crusoe. The description of Robinson is so shrewd that once the mind has accepted the ideas in the Robinson tale, it can not avoid thinking materialistically thereafter." (Lecture: Christ in Relation to Lucifer and Ahriman, Linz, May 18, 1915, GA 159) >From what I remember from one of my very favorite books from childhood, is that Robinson became completely self sufficient. The stories about growing crops, building forts and houses, making hand tools, trapping and domesticating animals were IMO the best part of the book and inspired my present day work preferences. I can also remember how this men became angry and resented with God because he felt he was being left abandoned to his luck and latter he was able to make it on his own, to became master of his territory. I also remember how based on his own fears but in the name of Christianity he murdered without remorse the natives that were about to have a TGIF snack. Their sin was to be and think diferently. At the end of the book Defoe mentions that Robinson returned to his homeland, but could not stand all the viciousness in humanity and had no other option than to return to end his life in the beloved island. Do you see, what I see ? It made me wonder that by labeling ourselves as (ie) environmentally responsible, we are also labeling others as irresponsible. That goes against the no judgment and unconditional love principles, isn't ?. It is a nicely designed trap for our own evolution, that just happens to be that of humanity. I am not saying this from any moral stature, I am just lately feeling the need to come to terms with my own demons and with those from Wall Street and Dupond. Mighty hard to do, though. Nevertheless, I see that the only solution to all our troubles is one of unified consciousness development for all. In what other way could humans end the power struggles, the abusive behavior of one group against another ?. What do you think ? Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 2 18:24:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04556 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03575; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:06:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA29632 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 17:09:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.51] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.51]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHG008LPBGNHO@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:24:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:16:45 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... In-reply-to: <1.5.4.16.19990901193807.4eafd42e@swva.net> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id RAA29644 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1680 Dear Mr. Gardner: Many thanks for your reply, please read between paragraphs. >I would be most interested in learning more details about your spectacularly >successful initial application of horsetail tea. How long did you boil it? >How did you apply it? What plants were involved and what was the problem? >And how quickly did the problem clear up? The first time I used horsetail was in my "back yard" and it was the only prep that I had avail. It was just after I moved to the rental place where I now live, which before that was chemically mistreated. (malation three times a year) I took about 400 g of the fresh chopped herb and boil it for about an hour in a steel pot with about 3 litres of water. The resulting tea was so thick that it left a white ring of "mineral" deposits in the pot. (I washed those back into the tea) I let this tea seat with the herb in for about two days. Then I strainered, diluted with rain water (total volume of aprox 20 litres), stirred for 20 min and sprayed it using a new 1 gallon hand held sprayer. I did my spraying early in the morning but waited until there was light all over (at around 9:00 am). I directed the fine mist to the leafs, not to the ground. I only did a single application. The time of the year was at the onset of the rainy season when we get 100 % relative humidity and temperatures above the 30 centigrades. (late july). I do not remember if it rained that night, but it probably rained within 2 days of the application. I remember that I made a point in doing this application two days before the full moon. The obvious problem was a heavy infestation of a fungus. I never being able to find the name of this plague in english, here it is very common in the citrus plantations (it is called fumangillo o negrilla) and it is characterized by forming a black plaque in the leafs, just as if you would have by covering the leafs with a fine and sticky carbon mix (I suspect the fungus is Aspergillus niger, but do not know for sure). The other major problem were scales covering most all the steam area of the plants. The plants that were heavily infestated with scale were crotons (Codiaeum variegatum), and hisbicus (H. rosa-sinesis). The hibiscus plants were also heavily infestated with the fungus as well as some coffee plants and a couple of mexican lime trees that are there. The most spectacular results were in one hibiscus plant in particular, this plant is located in a sunny spot in the center of the garden and was completely cover with the black stuff. It's stems were also covered with a sort of scale that is black above, with a yellow-pink interior and about 4 mm in diameter. (ants were there also) The results were visible in a matter of 2 or 3 days. The first thing that happened was that the scales began to dry out and fell from the stems. The fungus also dryed out and peeled away in less than ten days. Ever since all the plants have stayed healthy and without major pests problems. One curious thing that happened in the hibiscus plant was that the color of the leafs (now fungus free) kept on being of a very dark green, almost black. It was obvious the diference in color comparing it to the surrounding hibiscus. That dark color has being fading with time, but after almost two years since, I can still see the darker color of this specific plant. Let me add that the hibiscus plants here easily get to be 10 feet tall in a single season and that I cut them (prune them) to 1 or 2 feet yearly, so that whatever leafs are now present are new grow. This 508 only treatment I have done in other two garden locations where the black stuff was a problem in citrus and guayaba trees, with comparable results. > >>Ever since that experience I have used at times the dry form, including >some I got from JPI, but I "feel" the fresh herb works much better. Is >there any reason why 508 is prepared from dry horsetail, other than >convenience ?. > >As far as I know, it is purely convenience. However, at least in the >temperate climates, the time of harvest may be significant. When the green >shoots are young and actively growing, the silica (and probably also the >sulfur) is in a more active form (sol rather than gel) and thus harvesting >at this time may be more significant than whether or not the herb is used >fresh or dried. > >>Local people here use horsetail as a kidney folk remedy (just as Steiner >mentioned in Agriculture) and they make a point in using the fresh herb. To >my surprise it is available locally year round from a wetland area near the >volcano crater. >> >>The other diference I noticed is that the 508 I got from JPI seems to >include only the smaller leafs, needles or steams (I do not know the right >botanical word here) about one milimeter in diameter, and the herb that I >get here includes basically stems (5 milimiters in diameter) with a minority >of the small, thinner parts. This diference might be due to the shreding >process, but from what I see, it seems that JPI only uses the small, >terminal stems. I am right ?, Could you comment on this please ? > >It sounds to me like your local species is not Field Horsetail (E. arvense), >but perhaps the very similar Giant Horsetail (E. telemateia), which has >shoots that are about twice as thick as the former. Or perhaps you are >comparing dried (shrunken) stems with fresh ones. I can only say that the horsetail here, looks like the horsetail in the books, but I can't tell the size from the drawings or the pictures. It comes as a surprise to me that horsetail main stems are 1 mm thin. What I use here has a main stem of about 5-7 mm and around it at different lenghts along the 4 feet tall shoot, some 7-8 smaller stems emerge in a ring pattern around the main stem. These smaller stems are about 1-1.5 mm in diameter and about 8 inches long. It then seems that what I am using here is the giant form because the stems are pretty much the same either dry or fresh. Even fresh this herb has a very hard structure that IMO does not easily shrink with the drying. Does this sound like the giant form to you ? > >Malcolm Gardner > Many thanks for your time and help. Warm greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 2 18:55:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04941 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:55:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA06446; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06325 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:35:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz ([202.50.81.131]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990902224141.DTAU3442178.mta1-rme@nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz> for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:41:41 +1200 Received: by NT_SVR1 with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:28:31 +1200 Message-ID: <6120A29E7C51D0119E9700805F4C5E8D12528A@NT_SVR1> From: Lynne Sheridan To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: FW: money/ Robinson Crusoe (farmers)? Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:28:29 +1200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1681 Maybe we (farmers) are just modern day Robinson Crusoes That sounds closer to where we are at than the $. Maybe we should leave the $ out of the equation altogether? How does everyone feel about that? How would Steiner have approached the $? Regards Lynne > -----Original Message----- > From: Guillermo Romero [SMTP:romerog@col1.telmex.net.mx] > Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 9:31 AM > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Subject: Re: money/ Robinson Crusoe > > In any case, when all the unsustainable aspects of our society come > tumbling down, possibly all at once, the folks like us who have the > skills and means to grow wholesome food may just climb a few rungs up > that economic ladder you speak of. Woody > > > > > Hi Woody: > > The other day I ran into an RS statement: > > "The greatest damage is done when what is poured into a child's soul > induces the child to develop merely materialistically latter in life. > This trend has been on the increase for several centuries. Ahriman > has even inspired one of the great British writers to compose a work > that is calculated to impress the child's soul materialistically. The > intent is hardly noticeable because ordinarily, one does not see this > as preparatory to a materialistic orientation. The work I am talking > about is Robinson Crusoe. The description of Robinson is so shrewd > that once the mind has accepted the ideas in the Robinson tale, it can > not avoid thinking materialistically thereafter." > > (Lecture: Christ in Relation to Lucifer and Ahriman, Linz, May 18, > 1915, GA 159) > > >From what I remember from one of my very favorite books from > childhood, is that Robinson became completely self sufficient. The > stories about growing crops, building forts and houses, making hand > tools, trapping and domesticating animals were IMO the best part of > the book and inspired my present day work preferences. > > I can also remember how this men became angry and resented with God > because he felt he was being left abandoned to his luck and latter he > was able to make it on his own, to became master of his territory. > > I also remember how based on his own fears but in the name of > Christianity he murdered without remorse the natives that were about > to have a TGIF snack. Their sin was to be and think diferently. > > At the end of the book Defoe mentions that Robinson returned to his > homeland, but could not stand all the viciousness in humanity and had > no other option than to return to end his life in the beloved island. > > Do you see, what I see ? > > It made me wonder that by labeling ourselves as (ie) environmentally > responsible, we are also labeling others as irresponsible. That goes > against the no judgment and unconditional love principles, isn't ?. > It is a nicely designed trap for our own evolution, that just happens > to be that of humanity. > > I am not saying this from any moral stature, I am just lately feeling > the need to come to terms with my own demons and with those from Wall > Street and Dupond. Mighty hard to do, though. Nevertheless, I see > that the only solution to all our troubles is one of unified > consciousness development for all. In what other way could humans end > the power struggles, the abusive behavior of one group against another > ?. > > What do you think ? > > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 3 04:14:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA14417 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 04:14:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA06730; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 04:05:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA06586 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 04:00:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-78.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.78]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA30639 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 18:04:37 +1000 Message-ID: <00d601bef5e2$b1f21940$4e431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 18:00:25 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1682 Dear Guillermo, In Australia we use Casuarina Tea for 508 instead of Equisetum. Equisetum is not allowed in the country to grow as it is not native and also would quickly become a noxious weed and pest as do most imports to this country. So we d o not wish to encourage it. We have tested Casuarina for silica and it is very high, nearly as high as Equisetum, but we did not know about the sulphur, so I am getting some tests done to see if that also is present. Casuarina is a river oak that has the same structure of the equisetum, - long needle like stems with nodes surrounded by little pointed leaflets. We use it the same way as equisetum and seem to have similar results, so I shall be very interested to have the tests done. Thanks to you all for this interesting discussion and more in depth understanding of how 508 works, Cheryl Kemp. -----Original Message----- From: Guillermo Romero To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, 3 September 1999 1:34 am Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... >>>Ever since that experience I have used at times the dry form, including >>>some I got from JPI, but I "feel" the fresh herb works much better. Is >>>there any reason why 508 is prepared from dry horsetail, other than >>>convenience ?. >> >>It's kind of funny when I think of it, however, my only experience with >>storing 'green' equisetum resulted in MOLDED equisetum...;-) >> >>-Allan > >Dear Allan: > >I do not store green horsetail, I have dry out the herb just to have some in stock, but normally I just buy it and use it freshly cut from an old lady that supports herself exclusively from collecting and selling horsetail. This stuff is so popular that this woman sells door to door, three times a week, in the small town where I live. > >Cheers > > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 3 06:04:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA14944 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 06:04:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA09583; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 05:58:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA09550 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 05:57:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.151] (pm3mbr3-166-151.intrepid.net [209.190.166.151]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA27235 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 06:00:56 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <000f01bef41d$85130e00$57cb6cce@netacc.net> <001601bef3fd$392739a0$6a7436ce@dbrown.wavecom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:35:32 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: money/ Robinson Crusoe Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1683 >I am not saying this from any moral stature, I am just lately feeling the >need to come to terms with my own demons and with those from Wall Street >and Dupond. Mighty hard to do, though. Nevertheless, I see that the only >solution to all our troubles is one of unified consciousness development >for all. In what other way could humans end the power struggles, the >abusive behavior of one group against another ?. I guess this question is easier for me, dear Guillermo. While I realize it's not a perspective that is popular in the New Age, in the Fourth Way we accept that not all who appear to be human are able to possess souls and that all who possess souls do not necessarily possess the ability to transcend the death of their current body. In otherwords, when I am operating from soul values, as I am when I work for a fully nourished humanity, I would be grounding a divine impulse if I tried to lock my steps with "everyone," since, in reality, everyone is not capable of seeing, feeling or acting out of the divine spark. So, no, I'm not going to spend any time trying to raise spiritual consciousness at Monsanto when I know that, at best, they respond to economic impulses much more honestly. Just another look at the situation. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 3 06:24:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA15004 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 06:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA10067; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 06:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA09958 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 06:15:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.151] (pm3mbr3-166-116.intrepid.net [209.190.166.116]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA28775 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 06:19:38 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:23:41 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: FWD from SANET: Free Almonds Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1684 Hello: Sherry, an organic almond grower 1.5 hrs. north of Berkley, Ca.is offering free almonds at her farm. U pick. She wants to avoid rotting fruit and things that eat rotten fruit in her orchard. Tell your customers about her. Call her at (503) 796-2237 and/or see smallfarms.com for more details. glenn Buy from the Farmer www.smallfarms.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 3 07:55:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA15566 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 07:55:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA12662; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 07:47:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA12459 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 07:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp315.cy-net.net [208.21.195.124]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA22330 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 06:48:10 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEF5D2.C2C0B8E0@FLYLO>; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 06:08:37 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEF5D2.C2C0B8E0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: Money, slightly off topic (A Mule and A Fool) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 06:01:56 -0500 Encoding: 44 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1685 This came from a friend, found out of a 1930 Kentucky newspaper clipping: I thought it was rather timely for the topic on this list at present. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: For oldtimes or farmers CADIZ RECORD March 19, 1930 Talking To His Mule Over the hill trailed a man behind a mule drawing a plow. The clodhopper was "broadcasting". "Bill, you are a mule, the son of a jackass, and I am a man made in the image of God. Yet, here we work hitched together year in and year out. I often wonder if you work for me or I work for you. Sometimes I think this is a partnership between a mule and a fool. For surely I work harder than you do. Plowing here we cover the same distance, but you do it on four legs and I do it on two. So, mathematically speaking, I do twice as much work per leg as you do. "Soon we'll be preparing for a corn crop. When the crop is harvested I give one-third to the landlord for being kind enough to let me use this corner of God's universe. The other goes to you, and what is left is my share. But while you consume all your third, wtih the exception of a few cobs, I divide mine among seven children,six hens, two ducks and a banker. "Bill, you are getting the best of me; it ain't fair for a mule, the son of a jackass, to rob a man, the Lord of creation, of his substance. And come to think of it, you only help to cultivate the ground. After that I cut, shock and husk it, while you look over the pasture fence and heehaw at me. "All fall and part of the winter the whole family, from granny on down to the baby, pick cotton to help raise money to buy you a new set of harness, and pay interest on the mortgage on you, and by the way, what do you care about the mortgage? It doesn't worry you any. Not a darn bit. You leave that to me, you ungrateful cuss. " About the only time I'm your better is on election day, for I can vote and you can't. But if I ever get any more out of politics that you do, I don't see where it is."-Ex. martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 3 09:45:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17713 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 09:45:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19538; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 09:38:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19451 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 09:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.25] (pm3mbr1-166-25.intrepid.net [209.190.166.25]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA24708 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 09:40:55 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:46:21 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Priesthood -Reply Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1686 Andrew, This was in the threefold social order stuff that was so inscrutable that even the closest disciples could not cope; it got trashed/set aside. I'm sorry I cannot remember the books or lecture series that it is a part of. Uncle Hugh(Courtney) can probably give me the titles. The next time I talk to him I'll try to nail it down. Hey, somebody was paying attention; I delivered it as a zinger to see if anyone in the conversation would understand it; when no one caught it I threatened Allan with restarting the reincarnation string as retaliation :-) Hey Yo; great cow pie over here maybe if I stir it hard enough I'll get a vortex... Ok, so here is this cat standing on the land as a mediator between the cosmos and the earth and this stuff, lets call it food, comes forth. Hmm, sound like a priest to me! Best, Ted From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 3 11:07:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19205 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24728; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:00:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from valis.olywa.net (olywa.net [205.163.58.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24525 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from permawest.olywa.net ([205.163.58.158]) by valis.olywa.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-56662U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:00:43 -0700 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Permaculture West" To: Subject: Equisetum tea on fruit trees Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:09:09 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990903150043730.AAA421@valis.olywa.net@permawest.olywa.net> Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1687 Does anyone have experience using equisetum tea to control fruit tree fungal diseases? I have a number of fungus problems in my orchard (peach leaf curl, verticillium wilt, fireblight, etc.) and am looking for a benign approach to controlling them. Kirk Hanson C/O Permaculture West 72 Mattson Rd. Oakville, WA 98568 ph./fx. (360) 273-7117 e-mail: permawest@olywa.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 3 11:27:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19620 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:27:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26770; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:21:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26610 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.117] ("port 2057"@[148.233.78.117]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHH00A15RPE0Q@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:12:54 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 10:20:48 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Equisetum tea on fruit trees In-reply-to: <19990903150043730.AAA421%valis.olywa.net@permawest.olywa.net> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA26612 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1688 > Does anyone have experience using equisetum tea to control fruit tree >fungal diseases? I have a number of fungus problems in my orchard (peach >leaf curl, verticillium wilt, fireblight, etc.) and am looking for a benign >approach to controlling them. > > >Kirk Hanson >C/O Permaculture West >72 Mattson Rd. >Oakville, WA 98568 >ph./fx. (360) 273-7117 >e-mail: permawest@olywa.net Hi Kirk: My suggestion for you would be to look at the info avail from the good folks at the BD-Now list. The archives are located at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/biodynamics/ and there has been a very recent thread on the subject of horsetail tea in the discussions (BD preparation 508). Hope this is usefull. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 3 11:28:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19632 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:28:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26809; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:21:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26668 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:20:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 208.250.194.238 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:23:29 -0700 Message-ID: <006801bef621$06ee8080$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: Equisetum tea on fruit trees Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:28:51 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1689 Dear friend, there is much to recommend equisetum arvense, but not in isolation. In order to improve your plants immunological response capacity (ability to fend off disease), you'll need to build up your biodiversity and soil fertility side-by-side with your biological spray program. As for other sprays, specific to your problem, I would recommend looking into spraying the bd field sprays 500 and 501, compost teas (good humus as your base, not just decomposed organic matter), urtica dioica (stinging nettle) and chamomile flower tea. Are you aware of the tree pastes? There are a variety of them, made from manure, lime and other substances. They too help the trees improve their resistence to disease and pests. Its not a good idea to make specific recommendations without seeing the plants in question, but give a holler if you want some further ideas. Cheers, Andrew agdoc@msn.com > Does anyone have experience using equisetum tea to control fruit tree >fungal diseases? I have a number of fungus problems in my orchard (peach >leaf curl, verticillium wilt, fireblight, etc.) and am looking for a benign >approach to controlling them. > > >Kirk Hanson >C/O Permaculture West >72 Mattson Rd. >Oakville, WA 98568 >ph./fx. (360) 273-7117 >e-mail: permawest@olywa.net > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 3 13:49:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25539 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 13:49:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06693; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 13:41:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06521 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 13:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.34] ("port 2050"@[148.233.78.34]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHH000CVXXIZ4@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 12:27:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 12:35:12 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Equisetum tea on fruit trees In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <19990903150043730.AAA421%valis.olywa.net@permawest.olywa.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id NAA06529 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1690 >> Does anyone have experience using equisetum tea to control fruit tree >>fungal diseases? I have a number of fungus problems in my orchard (peach >>leaf curl, verticillium wilt, fireblight, etc.) and am looking for a benign >>approach to controlling them. >> >> >>Kirk Hanson >>C/O Permaculture West >>72 Mattson Rd. >>Oakville, WA 98568 >>ph./fx. (360) 273-7117 >>e-mail: permawest@olywa.net > >Hi Kirk: > >My suggestion for you would be to look at the info avail from the good folks at the BD-Now list. The archives are located at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/biodynamics/ and there has been a very recent thread on the subject of horsetail tea in the discussions (BD preparation 508). > >Hope this is usefull. I am sorry about this Kirk. Because of your email handle, I thought the message was coming from the permaculture list and not from BD-Now. Obviously you already know about the 508 discussions. My mistake, my apologies. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 3 15:32:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07657 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 15:32:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14151; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 15:24:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA14092 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 15:23:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-111.s48.as1.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.111]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA04034 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 15:27:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37D021F0.E89EDE71@erols.com> Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 15:30:56 -0400 From: Rex Harrill X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" Subject: Organized effort against genetic engineering Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1691 Don't know who is funding this group (if it matters), but they appear to be actively opposed to genetic tampering. http://www.bio-integrity.org/ Regards, Rex Harrill From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 3 15:50:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08032 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 15:49:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15371; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 15:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15298 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 15:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-111.s48.as1.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.111]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA10569 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 15:45:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37D02620.CFCA71E4@erols.com> Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 15:48:48 -0400 From: Rex Harrill X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" Subject: OFF: gentle humor Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1692 The farm manager of the biggest BD farm in West Virginia noticed his wife had hired a new intern while he was busy planning a conference. He called the young man over to his pickup. "What's your name?" "John," the intern replied. The manager, who had suffered a bad day, growled, "Look, I don't know what kind of a namby-pamby place you worked at before, but I don't call anyone by their first name. It breeds familiarity and that leads to a breakdown in authority. I've found it best to refer to all the interns by their last name only - Smith, Jones, Baker - that's all. And it may be best for you to refer to me as "the Boss." Now that we've got that straight, what is your last name?" The new guy sighed and said, "Darling. My name is John Darling." "Okay, John, it's time we get to spraying..." From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 3 20:41:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14075 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 20:41:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA00734; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 20:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA00627 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 20:32:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.168] ("port 2054"@[148.233.78.168]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHI00A79GDQQF@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 19:06:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 19:13:47 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: money/ Robinson Crusoe In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <000f01bef41d$85130e00$57cb6cce@netacc.net> <001601bef3fd$392739a0$6a7436ce@dbrown.wavecom.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1693 >>I am not saying this from any moral stature, I am just lately feeling the >>need to come to terms with my own demons and with those from Wall Street >>and Dupond. Mighty hard to do, though. Nevertheless, I see that the only >>solution to all our troubles is one of unified consciousness development >>for all. In what other way could humans end the power struggles, the >>abusive behavior of one group against another ?. > >I guess this question is easier for me, dear Guillermo. While I realize >it's not a perspective that is popular in the New Age, in the Fourth Way >we accept that not all who appear to be human are able to possess souls >and that all who possess souls do not necessarily possess the ability to >transcend the death of their current body. > >In otherwords, when I am operating from soul values, as I am when I work >for a fully nourished humanity, I would be grounding a divine impulse if I >tried to lock my steps with "everyone," since, in reality, everyone is not >capable of seeing, feeling or acting out of the divine spark. > >So, no, I'm not going to spend any time trying to raise spiritual >consciousness at Monsanto when I know that, at best, they respond to >economic impulses much more honestly. > >Just another look at the situation. > >-Allan Thanks Allan: Indeed another look, for my own taste it evoques doom and hopeless pictures. You might be right, and if you are not, well that is your position and I should respect it. By the way, I never before seen myself as a "New Ager", but again you might be right, probably I should reconsider my own standing. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 4 01:09:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA19252 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 01:09:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA13406; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 01:01:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13278 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 00:57:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-27.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.60]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA09920 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 22:00:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37D0A5B2.8B96D466@ap.net> Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 21:53:06 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: money/ Robinson Crusoe References: <000f01bef41d$85130e00$57cb6cce@netacc.net> <001601bef3fd$392739a0$6a7436ce@dbrown.wavecom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1694 Guillermo Romero wrote: > >>I am not saying this from any moral stature, I am just lately feeling the > >>need to come to terms with my own demons and with those from Wall Street > >>and Dupond. Mighty hard to do, though. Nevertheless, I see that the only > >>solution to all our troubles is one of unified consciousness development > >>for all. In what other way could humans end the power struggles, the > >>abusive behavior of one group against another ?. > > > >I guess this question is easier for me, dear Guillermo. While I realize > >it's not a perspective that is popular in the New Age, in the Fourth Way > >we accept that not all who appear to be human are able to possess souls > >and that all who possess souls do not necessarily possess the ability to > >transcend the death of their current body. > > > >In otherwords, when I am operating from soul values, as I am when I work > >for a fully nourished humanity, I would be grounding a divine impulse if I > >tried to lock my steps with "everyone," since, in reality, everyone is not > >capable of seeing, feeling or acting out of the divine spark. > > > >So, no, I'm not going to spend any time trying to raise spiritual > >consciousness at Monsanto when I know that, at best, they respond to > >economic impulses much more honestly. > > > >Just another look at the situation. > > > >-Allan > > Thanks Allan: Indeed another look, for my own taste it evoques doom and hopeless pictures. You might be right, and if you are not, well that is your position and I should respect it. > > By the way, I never before seen myself as a "New Ager", but again you might be right, probably I should reconsider my own standing. > > Regards > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > No quotes from spiritual masters amigo. Just an observation. Since my posting in response to the start of this thread, addressing the issue of being a "small businessman" with all that this implies had hardly been addressed. I suggested lots of marketing alternatives including reaching out in community and educating those consumers in a farms marketing area. As in " God helps those who help themselves." No matter how spiritual your intention, if you don't speak the language of commerce, your intended market will not respond to you. The more customers you reach, the clearer your message of "benefits", the more likely that your profits will rise. If you maximize what you personally can create, if you demonstrate that the consumer PREFERS your produce and at a higher than normal price, even a Monsanto will notice because profit is the lure that catches that fish. They have no ethics, or integrity or spiritual drive other than greed. If they notice that biodynamics is more profitable than their poisons, you can bet they will jump on the boat too. As some of my friends say often, "Have faith in Allah and tie your camel up tight." Be the most productive farmer in Comala first and when your neighbors begin to notice, teach them. Like a ripple, then a wave, a tsunami of health, energized by faith WILL BE NOTICED. We all need to do it now. Ignore the skeptics. Don't deal with the doubters. Welcome all interested. Speak to those willing to listen. Don't waste time beating your breast. Get over it. Get on with it. Be the best that you can be! Alhamdulliah! [All praise to God]. Best Regards, In Love and Light, David/whirlderv@ap.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 4 06:37:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA18245 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 06:37:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA20686; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 06:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA20600 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 06:28:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.114] (pm3mbr3-166-114.intrepid.net [209.190.166.114]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA28453 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 06:32:20 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37D0A5B2.8B96D466@ap.net> References: <000f01bef41d$85130e00$57cb6cce@netacc.net> <001601bef3fd$392739a0$6a7436ce@dbrown.wavecom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 18:36:55 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: money/ Robinson Crusoe Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1695 >Be the most productive farmer in Comala first and when your neighbors >begin to >notice, teach them. Like a ripple, then a wave, a tsunami of >health, energized >by faith WILL BE NOTICED. While this certainly seems to be a reasonable expectation, it's worth pointing out that Joel Salatin himself is surrounded by farming neighbors who are not interested in adopting his approach to natural sustainable farming mor to direct marketing to 'friends' at the local farmer's market (many of Joel's 'friends' drive hundreds of miles to see him at the market), even though they see hundreds of people come from far away every summer to learn how Joel does what he does. I asked Joel about this. He said that without a pradigm shift, people automatic rationalize what they see in terms of their own current model. Successful examples outside of their paradigm are only rationalized away ("He gets more sun over there." "He has all the luck!") Making the paradigm shift almost requires a literal 'bolt from the blue,' particular for those who chose to lead the unexamined life. How many, like myself, came into biodynamics and natural food while trying to find a cure for an illness the AMA had given up on? Near death experiences are one of the classic 'bolts from the blue.' It's also worth pointing out that my son Dylan has been tormented by a bully since returning to public school this year. Yesterday we found out that the bully, who strangely has only one eyebrow, is the son of the county extension agent, a man who has never attended the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Confernece, even though it is held 10 minutes from the door of his office and would certainly give him a free pass, should he ever request one. (And yes, he does forward our press release throught the ag announcement network.) Good new though! The agent did show an interest in seeing Joel Salatin speak this year! :-) -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 4 08:48:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19240 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 08:48:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA22998; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 08:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA22934 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 08:38:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (cust53.nrvmax2.tor1.netrover.com [205.209.21.53]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA20623 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 08:42:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-From: villager@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: From: "manfred palmer" To: "bdnow" Subject: spader/sod Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 08:45:18 -0400 Message-ID: <01bef6d3$582f9bc0$0a1bd1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002F_01BEF6B1.D11DFBC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1696 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BEF6B1.D11DFBC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We are preparing some 15-year-fallow land for next year's gardens, and = may have access to a spader or a plow. Question: does anyone have experience with the effectiveness of the = spader in sod so that that layer is incorporated by spring. The = conventional wisdom of the plow is that it shears the roots and is = thereby effective; whereas the spader more or less shears vertically, = maintaining the [horizontal] strata of soil. We would like to spade a large square plot, and then mulch entirely with = rolled-out round bales.[for squash next year] The rest, 15 acres we = would like to try just spading, and light discing[notched], and /or 2" = rototilling for raised seedbeds. Will the sod be sufficiently incorporated for next years' use?=20 Thanks for any experienced insights.............manfred palmer ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BEF6B1.D11DFBC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We are preparing some 15-year-fallow land for = next=20 year's gardens, and may have access to a spader or a plow.
Question: does anyone have experience with = the=20 effectiveness of the spader in sod so that that layer is incorporated by = spring.=20 The conventional wisdom of the plow is that it shears the roots and is = thereby=20 effective; whereas the spader more or less shears vertically, = maintaining the=20 [horizontal] strata of soil.
We would like to spade a large square plot, = and then=20 mulch entirely with rolled-out round bales.[for squash next year] The = rest, 15=20 acres we would like to try just spading, and light discing[notched], and = /or=20 2" rototilling for raised seedbeds.
Will the sod be sufficiently incorporated for = next=20 years' use?
Thanks for any experienced = insights.............manfred=20 palmer
------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BEF6B1.D11DFBC0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 4 09:41:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24120 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 09:41:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24584; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 09:34:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24375 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 09:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp318.cy-net.net [208.21.195.127]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA19230 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 08:35:11 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEF6AA.64670960@FLYLO>; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 07:52:10 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEF6AA.64670960@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: spader/sod Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 07:43:58 -0500 Encoding: 28 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1697 No experience with spaders but when I disc a field that's lain fallow for that many years, it's seemingly detrimental to the crops first grown. I do it to cut and spread manures into the soil and to break up the weed mulch barrier also. But it exposes the top inch or so of soil to sunlight and at least 15 years worth of weed seeds surface. Anything you don't plant, be prepared to put a cover crop or mow regularly. I've found some techniques help. Do your opening the field work at night! If you can cut the soil and replant it and mulch it again before daybreak, you'll cut your exposed weed seeds back a lot. So, you may plan to do it in small sections, that which you can easily handle in one night. Try one portion at night and another one by conventional methods to actually see which works best in your situation. mowing, even weeds are good mulch when mown because they usually have roots much longer than planted crops and have brought up deeper soil nutrients, just be sure (I can't often get this done) to get them before they seed out again. Does anyone have a good way to get rid of a huge mesquite tree that's trying to become a grove? (Even if it didn't have thorns, I couldn't put my arms around the truck, it's pretty big!) I know mesquite is good for a lot of home made products, but it's a nuisance to tires, shoes and horse hooves. And, it's a huge water thief as well. I've mowed the sprouts as far to the tree itself as I dare get the tractor. I've used a brush torch and burned off the others I couldn't mow, but it comes back with a vengeance! The goats like it but can't keep up with it and I'm tired of picking stickers out of udders. martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 4 12:50:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20092 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 12:50:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01406; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 12:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01281 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 12:39:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.63] (pm3mbr1-166-63.intrepid.net [209.190.166.63]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA05504 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 12:43:19 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01bef6d3$582f9bc0$0a1bd1cd@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 00:47:52 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: spader/sod Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1698 > We are preparing some 15-year-fallow land for next year's gardens, >and may have access to a spader or a plow. Question: does anyone have >experience with the effectiveness of the spader in sod so that that layer >is incorporated by spring. The conventional wisdom of the plow is that it >shears the roots and is thereby effective; whereas the spader more or >less shears vertically, maintaining the [horizontal] strata of soil. We >would like to spade a large square plot, and then mulch entirely with >rolled-out round bales.[for squash next year] The rest, 15 acres we would >like to try just spading, and light discing[notched], and /or 2" >rototilling for raised seedbeds. Will the sod be sufficiently incorporated >for next years' use? Thanks for any experienced >insights.............manfred palmer Dear Manfred - Several times now I've used the Totella spader to cultivate fields which have been fallow for 1 to 10 years. Yes, I've planted crops into the spaded earth, sometimes in the following spring, sometimes (almost) immediately. (I always apply BC before and after spading.) A properly adjusted spader 'pulled' at the proper speed will 'punch down' the cover, pushing it 7-8 inches beneath the soil (a typical spader 'bite' s.b. less than a quarter inch; if the soil is living and the cover isn't Johnson grass, you should get good incorporation. You might want to take a look at the SPADER CLINIC on Eugene Canales' page: http://www.approtecag.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 4 20:33:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA26704 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 20:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA16409; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 20:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA16240 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 20:23:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (ctca201.vthokies.net [206.153.172.201]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA31789 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 19:13:12 -0400 Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 19:13:12 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990904204558.0a2782b2@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id UAA16241 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1699 At 02:16 PM 9/2/99 -0600, Guillermo wrote: >The first time I used horsetail was in my "back yard" and it was the only prep that I had avail. It was just after I moved to the rental place where I now live, which before that was chemically mistreated. (malation three times a year) > >I took about 400 g of the fresh chopped herb and boil it for about an hour in a steel pot with about 3 litres of water. The resulting tea was so thick that it left a white ring of "mineral" deposits in the pot. (I washed those back into the tea) [MG] Two questions: 1) Did a sulfurous odor develop while it was boiling? 2) Do you have hard water where you are (are there white scales on the inside of your tea kettle)? >>>The other diference I noticed is that the 508 I got from JPI seems to >>include only the smaller leafs, needles or steams (I do not know the right >>botanical word here) about one milimeter in diameter, and the herb that I >>get here includes basically stems (5 milimiters in diameter) with a minority >>of the small, thinner parts. This diference might be due to the shreding >>process, but from what I see, it seems that JPI only uses the small, >>terminal stems. I am right ?, Could you comment on this please ? >> >>It sounds to me like your local species is not Field Horsetail (E. arvense), >>but perhaps the very similar Giant Horsetail (E. telemateia), which has >>shoots that are about twice as thick as the former. Or perhaps you are >>comparing dried (shrunken) stems with fresh ones. > > I can only say that the horsetail here, looks like the horsetail in the books, but I can't tell the size from the drawings or the pictures. It comes as a surprise to me that horsetail main stems are 1 mm thin. What I use here has a main stem of about 5-7 mm and around it at different lenghts along the 4 feet tall shoot, some 7-8 smaller stems emerge in a ring pattern around the main stem. These smaller stems are about 1-1.5 mm in diameter and about 8 inches long. > >It then seems that what I am using here is the giant form because the stems are pretty much the same either dry or fresh. Even fresh this herb has a very hard structure that IMO does not easily shrink with the drying. > >Does this sound like the giant form to you ? [MG] I've discovered that the E. telemaieia, the so-called Giant Horsetail, occurs on the West coast of North America, but apparently does not extend south into Mexico. Also E. arvense does not occur naturally in Mexico and never gets taller than 2-3 feet. Thus, the only other possibility (there are only 15 species in the whole genus) is E. myriochaetum, the largest of all the horsetails in the world, which reportedly grows up to eight meters! (I think under certain circumstances, perhaps in a cloud forest, that this species may "lean" on trees in order to achieve this extreme length. Normally I imagine it is much shorter, although I have not been able to find any data on this.) I think if you check your local flora books under this name you should be able to confirm that this is what you were using. (Or if you see living or unshredded specimens, check whether there are many "cones" on the tips of the side branches near the top. This is a distinctive feature of the fertile stems of this species.) If this is the species you had such success with, then I would be very curious about the amounts of sulfate and silica in its ash. Do you think you could look up the following reference in a local university? Camacho, M.R., D. Chávez, R. Mata & M. Palacios-Rios. 1992. Chemical Studies on Mexican Plants used in Traditional Medicine XXII: Constituents of Equisetum myriochaetum Schlecht. & Cham. Fitoterapia 63(5):471-472. Best wishes, Malcolm Gardner From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 4 22:45:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA27717 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 22:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA20653; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 22:38:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20470 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 22:35:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.24] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.24]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHK0079IHQHIN@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 21:30:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:37:42 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: OFF. Malaria treatment ? To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1700 Hi Friends: I think I got lucky (awaiting blood tests), so that I will appreciate if you could give me ideas on an alternative malaria treatment (what does Anthroposophic medicine has to say about this ailment ?). As of yesterday I am taking homeo quinine, and hope to see results soon. Thanks for your help. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 4 22:46:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA27922 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 22:46:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA20693; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 22:39:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20474 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 22:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.24] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.24]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHK0079IHQHIN@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 21:30:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:29:54 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... In-reply-to: <1.5.4.16.19990904204558.0a2782b2@swva.net> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id WAA20475 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1701 >At 02:16 PM 9/2/99 -0600, Guillermo wrote: > >>The first time I used horsetail was in my "back yard" and it was the only >prep that I had avail. It was just after I moved to the rental place where >I now live, which before that was chemically mistreated. (malation three >times a year) >> >>I took about 400 g of the fresh chopped herb and boil it for about an hour >in a steel pot with about 3 litres of water. The resulting tea was so thick >that it left a white ring of "mineral" deposits in the pot. (I washed those >back into the tea) > >[MG] Two questions: 1) Did a sulfurous odor develop while it was boiling? >2) Do you have hard water where you are (are there white scales on the >inside of your tea kettle)? > >>>>The other diference I noticed is that the 508 I got from JPI seems to >>>include only the smaller leafs, needles or steams (I do not know the right >>>botanical word here) about one milimeter in diameter, and the herb that I >>>get here includes basically stems (5 milimiters in diameter) with a minority >>>of the small, thinner parts. This diference might be due to the shreding >>>process, but from what I see, it seems that JPI only uses the small, >>>terminal stems. I am right ?, Could you comment on this please ? >>> >>>It sounds to me like your local species is not Field Horsetail (E. arvense), >>>but perhaps the very similar Giant Horsetail (E. telemateia), which has >>>shoots that are about twice as thick as the former. Or perhaps you are >>>comparing dried (shrunken) stems with fresh ones. >> >> I can only say that the horsetail here, looks like the horsetail in the >books, but I can't tell the size from the drawings or the pictures. It >comes as a surprise to me that horsetail main stems are 1 mm thin. What I >use here has a main stem of about 5-7 mm and around it at different lenghts >along the 4 feet tall shoot, some 7-8 smaller stems emerge in a ring pattern >around the main stem. These smaller stems are about 1-1.5 mm in diameter >and about 8 inches long. >> >>It then seems that what I am using here is the giant form because the stems >are pretty much the same either dry or fresh. Even fresh this herb has a >very hard structure that IMO does not easily shrink with the drying. >> >>Does this sound like the giant form to you ? > >[MG] I've discovered that the E. telemaieia, the so-called Giant Horsetail, >occurs on the West coast of North America, but apparently does not extend >south into Mexico. Also E. arvense does not occur naturally in Mexico and >never gets taller than 2-3 feet. Thus, the only other possibility (there >are only 15 species in the whole genus) is E. myriochaetum, the largest of >all the horsetails in the world, which reportedly grows up to eight meters! >(I think under certain circumstances, perhaps in a cloud forest, that this >species may "lean" on trees in order to achieve this extreme length. >Normally I imagine it is much shorter, although I have not been able to find >any data on this.) I think if you check your local flora books under this >name you should be able to confirm that this is what you were using. (Or if >you see living or unshredded specimens, check whether there are many "cones" >on the tips of the side branches near the top. This is a distinctive >feature of the fertile stems of this species.) > If this is the species you had such success with, then I would be >very curious about the amounts of sulfate and silica in its ash. Do you >think you could look up the following reference in a local university? > >Camacho, M.R., D. Chávez, R. Mata & M. Palacios-Rios. 1992. Chemical >Studies on Mexican Plants used in Traditional Medicine XXII: Constituents >of Equisetum myriochaetum Schlecht. & Cham. Fitoterapia 63(5):471-472. > >Best wishes, > >Malcolm Gardner Dear Mr. Gardner: For sure I can get the article above, but it might take some time because the National University (UNAM) is going through a politically induced strike and I am afraid it is the only University with an extensive periodical collection in the country. I will also try to see if I can get it through online services. The water around here is not hard, it only travels less than 30 miles to reach me and originates in the volcano wooded area, so there is little posibility for high Ca and Mg content. When I boil horsetail there is a pleasant smell, not at all sulphurus and no, we do not get mineral deposits in our tea kettle. I have being doing some research on the specific plant that I am using, as I have said, it never crossed my mind before that it could be something else than E. arvense. It was so convenient to have the herb deliver to my front door that I did'nt bother. >From what I could gather from an etnobotanic friend of mine and from a very professional herbolarian lady I know ( that also happens to be a trainned Waldorf teacher from the times of Juan Berlin). I am quite certain now that what we have here is Equisetum robustum. You are right E giganteum is not endemic to this part of Mexico and it is by far bigger than the local plant. The sterile shoots of E. robustum only reaches 1.5 m (5 feet) in lenght. Here, in addition than as a kidney remedy, it is also widely used to scrub dishes, for healing open wounds, as a cough remedy, and as a diuretic, antiseptic and antihemorragic agent. Locally it grows profusely in the wetlands at an altitude of 4,600 feet. I would be happy to send you some dry samples by mail if you think they could clear US Customs. We do not have local facilities to do Si and S testing, but in my next batch of analyses I could send some samples to a lab in Hermosillo, Sonora, where they normally do our testing. This will also take a while. Any comment on E. robustum ? Warm regards. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 4 23:57:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA14695 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 23:56:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA23014; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 23:46:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA22871 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 23:44:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (ctca181.vthokies.net [206.153.172.181]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA11367 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 22:33:50 -0400 Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 22:33:50 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990905000634.33bf2fd0@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id XAA22872 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1702 At 09:29 PM 9/4/99 -0600, you wrote: >>[MG] I've discovered that the E. telemaieia, the so-called Giant Horsetail, >>occurs on the West coast of North America, but apparently does not extend >>south into Mexico. Also E. arvense does not occur naturally in Mexico and >>never gets taller than 2-3 feet. Thus, the only other possibility (there >>are only 15 species in the whole genus) is E. myriochaetum, the largest of >>all the horsetails in the world, which reportedly grows up to eight meters! >>(I think under certain circumstances, perhaps in a cloud forest, that this >>species may "lean" on trees in order to achieve this extreme length. >>Normally I imagine it is much shorter, although I have not been able to find >>any data on this.) I think if you check your local flora books under this >>name you should be able to confirm that this is what you were using. (Or if >>you see living or unshredded specimens, check whether there are many "cones" >>on the tips of the side branches near the top. This is a distinctive >>feature of the fertile stems of this species.) >> If this is the species you had such success with, then I would be >>very curious about the amounts of sulfate and silica in its ash. Do you >>think you could look up the following reference in a local university? >> >>Camacho, M.R., D. Chávez, R. Mata & M. Palacios-Rios. 1992. Chemical >>Studies on Mexican Plants used in Traditional Medicine XXII: Constituents >>of Equisetum myriochaetum Schlecht. & Cham. Fitoterapia 63(5):471-472. >> >>Best wishes, >> >>Malcolm Gardner > >Dear Mr. Gardner: > >For sure I can get the article above, but it might take some time because the National University (UNAM) is going through a politically induced strike and I am afraid it is the only University with an extensive periodical collection in the country. I will also try to see if I can get it through online services. > >The water around here is not hard, it only travels less than 30 miles to reach me and originates in the volcano wooded area, so there is little posibility for high Ca and Mg content. > >When I boil horsetail there is a pleasant smell, not at all sulphurus and no, we do not get mineral deposits in our tea kettle. > >I have being doing some research on the specific plant that I am using, as I have said, it never crossed my mind before that it could be something else than E. arvense. It was so convenient to have the herb deliver to my front door that I did'nt bother. > >>From what I could gather from an etnobotanic friend of mine and from a very professional herbolarian lady I know ( that also happens to be a trainned Waldorf teacher from the times of Juan Berlin). I am quite certain now that what we have here is Equisetum robustum. You are right E giganteum is not endemic to this part of Mexico and it is by far bigger than the local plant. [MG]: We have to be careful with the names here. I mentioned the _so-called_ Giant Horsetail, but I also specified its Latin name, E. telemateia; this is the largest of the temperate or boreal climate species, but it is a much smaller species than the _tropical_ E. giganteum, which occurs as far north as Costa Rica, I believe. Regarding E. robustum, I believe this is a close relative, and sometimes even regarded as a subspecies, of E. hyemale, the common scouring rush, which is an _un_branched species of horsetail that is very high in silica and low in sulfates. If your species has branches on its aerial shoots--as you suggested earlier--then I don't think you are dealing with this species. >The sterile shoots of E. robustum only reaches 1.5 m (5 feet) in lenght. Here, in addition than as a kidney remedy, it is also widely used to scrub dishes, for healing open wounds, as a cough remedy, and as a diuretic, antiseptic and antihemorragic agent. > >Locally it grows profusely in the wetlands at an altitude of 4,600 feet. > >I would be happy to send you some dry samples by mail if you think they could clear US Customs. I think we can figure this out by email! >We do not have local facilities to do Si and S testing, but in my next batch of analyses I could send some samples to a lab in Hermosillo, Sonora, where they normally do our testing. This will also take a while. If you can do that, that would be great. An ash analysis is all that is needed. >Any comment on E. robustum ? See above. Yours truly, Malcolm Gardner >Warm regards. > > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 5 11:33:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15500 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 11:33:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11321; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 11:27:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11191 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 11:24:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.203.46]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sun, 5 Sep 1999 16:28:31 +0100 Message-ID: <002601bef7b3$62939b80$75062cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: Subject: OFF: re Equisetum Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 16:28:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01BEF7BB.AFC1A0C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1703 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BEF7BB.AFC1A0C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I noticed Malcolm referring to E. arvense as 'scouring rush' and = Guillermo mentioning its use in cleaning dishes. I assume that this = common name originated in mediaeval Britain, when it was used = specifically to scrub pewter dishes. However, I've seen warnings in = (presumably) poorly researched books on animal husbandry that grazing on = mare's-tail will cause scouring (i.e. diarrhoea !). I don't recall that = my goats would touch the stuff, anyway. This reminds me that gardeners = are regularly recommended to plant caper spurge (Euphorbia lathyrus) to = discourage moles, in otherwise respected magazines and even on BBC TV = programmes; ignorant of the fact that the rather toxic white sap of = this plant ('molewort')=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BEF7BB.AFC1A0C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I noticed Malcolm = referring to=20 E. arvense as 'scouring rush' and Guillermo mentioning its use in = cleaning=20 dishes.  I assume that this common name originated in mediaeval = Britain,=20 when it was used specifically to scrub pewter dishes.  = However, I've=20 seen warnings in (presumably) poorly researched books on animal = husbandry that=20 grazing on mare's-tail will cause scouring (i.e. diarrhoea !).  I = don't=20 recall that my goats would touch the stuff, anyway.  This reminds = me that=20 gardeners are regularly recommended to plant caper spurge (Euphorbia = lathyrus)=20 to discourage moles, in otherwise respected magazines and even on BBC TV = programmes;  ignorant of the fact that the rather toxic white sap = of this=20 plant ('molewort')
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BEF7BB.AFC1A0C0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 5 11:33:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15508 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 11:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11271; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 11:26:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11190 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 11:24:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.203.46]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sun, 5 Sep 1999 16:28:27 +0100 Message-ID: <002501bef7b3$61889420$75062cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: Subject: OFF: re Equisetum Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 16:27:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01BEF7BB.9E570280" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1704 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BEF7BB.9E570280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I noticed that Guillermo mentioned the use of an Equisetum to clean = dishes and that Malcolm referred to E. arvense as 'scouring rush'. This = popular name presumably arose because, in mediaeval Britain, it was used = specifically to scrub pewter plates; yet, in (presumably poorly = researched) books on animal husbandry, I have read warnings that grazing = on mare's-tail will cause scouring (i.e. diarrhoea) ! Similarly, = otherwise good gardening magazines and even BBC TV programmes regularly = advise gardeners to plant caper spurge (Euphorbia lathyrus) around their = lawns to discourage moles (the burrowing animal). I seem to remember that my goats wouldn't touch the stuff, anyway - but, = more to the point, the toxic white sap of this plant ('molewort') was = used in traditional country medicine against moles, the small = dark-coloured swellings which occasionally disfigure the skin. Has = anyone come across other horticultural misunderstandings arising from a = word having several different meanings ? = Tony N-S. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BEF7BB.9E570280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I noticed that = Guillermo=20 mentioned the use of an Equisetum to clean dishes and that Malcolm = referred to=20 E. arvense as 'scouring rush'.  This popular name presumably arose = because,=20 in mediaeval Britain, it was used specifically to scrub pewter = plates; =20 yet, in (presumably poorly researched) books on animal husbandry, I have = read=20 warnings that grazing on mare's-tail will cause scouring (i.e. = diarrhoea)=20 !   Similarly, otherwise good gardening magazines and even BBC = TV=20 programmes regularly advise gardeners to plant caper spurge (Euphorbia = lathyrus)=20 around their lawns to discourage moles (the burrowing = animal).
I seem to remember that my goats = wouldn't touch the=20 stuff, anyway - but, more to the point, the toxic white sap of this = plant=20 ('molewort') was used in traditional country medicine against moles, the = small=20 dark-coloured swellings which occasionally disfigure the skin.  Has = anyone=20 come across other horticultural misunderstandings arising from a word = having=20 several different meanings=20 ?            =             &= nbsp;        =20 Tony N-S.
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BEF7BB.9E570280-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 5 14:01:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17555 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 14:01:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17215; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 13:55:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17078 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 13:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.30] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.30]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHL00DC9O922R@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 12:48:41 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 12:37:18 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... In-reply-to: <1.5.4.16.19990905000634.33bf2fd0@swva.net> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id NAA17079 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1705 Dear Mr Gardner: A few comments: >[MG]: We have to be careful with the names here. I mentioned the >_so-called_ Giant Horsetail, but I also specified its Latin name, E. >telemateia; this is the largest of the temperate or boreal climate species, >but it is a much smaller species than the _tropical_ E. giganteum, which >occurs as far north as Costa Rica, I believe. > Regarding E. robustum, I believe this is a close relative, and >sometimes even regarded as a subspecies, of E. hyemale, the common scouring >rush, which is an _un_branched species of horsetail that is very high in >silica and low in sulfates. If your species has branches on its aerial >shoots--as you suggested earlier--then I don't think you are dealing with >this species. The ethnobotanist I consulted has a PhD from Mont'Pellier and has done extensive clasification of the herbal medical tradition of the region. He is pretty certain that the local Horsetail is E. robustum. I probably did not express myself correctly, but as far as I can tell, I never suggested that the horsetail I used has aerial branches. It does not. From what I seen, and I never seen the spore bearing structure, the sterile shoots are a single main stem (anywhere from 3 to 5 feet long and about 5-7 mm thick at the base) with bamboo like rings, under but near to each ring, the "smaller stems", I would best call them "hairs", grow in a ring pattern (these are about 1mm in diameter and about 5-10 inches long and there are about 8 of this hairs around a given ring). I'll try to get a picture scanned and will send it to you or to Allan. In reference to the white "mineral" deposits around the pot, I ran across a horsetail reference that mentioned it's saponin content. This might be an explanation for the white deposits, besides, I always use rain water. Although I know that horsetail changes from a light green to a dark one as season progresses, the herb that I have purchased here in different seasons always seem to be dark green (like a green olive). The other comment I wanted to make is about how well it keeps. In one ocassion I prepared the tea, strainered and diluted it, but when I started stirring, I realize that I had too much liquid for the container I was using and decided to put some 4 litres apart. Those 4 unstirred litres were left in an open plastic bucket and I forget about them. At least two months after the event, I ran into this bucket and the diluted tea looked as good as fresh. The water had a green but clear color and the smell was pleasant. I attributed the well keeping to the antiseptical properties of horsetail, but it puzzles me to see on one side how fast the tea with the herb in it gets into a fermentation, and on the other side, to see that a solution keeps so well. Any comment here ? Thanks for your time and interest. Warm greetings. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 5 15:19:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA18143 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 15:19:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20841; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 15:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA20718 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 15:10:19 -0400 (EDT) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hJLYa09417 (4401) for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 15:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <60638243.25041ae3@aol.com> Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 15:13:39 EDT Subject: A BD Definition for the Layman To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1706 All - I am putting together some charts for a presentation on BD. What I am struggeling with is a concise (~25 words max) definition of BD. Yes I have read Sherry Wildfuer's intro and others but nothing concise and practical jumps out at me. For the groups discussion I present my "BETA" version of a definition: "BD agriculture is an advanced organic farming system that works with the forces of nature providing increased soil and plant health and quality." I solicit the help of all to improve the above definition. Dan Lynch From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 5 16:37:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18838 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 16:37:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24661; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 16:31:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (root@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca [199.60.222.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24602 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 16:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DialupEudora (eudora@vtn1 [199.60.222.3]) by vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA10026 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 13:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 13:34:25 -0700 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: klokeid@victoria.tc.ca (Terry J. Klokeid) Subject: Re: A BD Definition for the Layman Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1707 Hi Dan, I applaud your goal of preparing an introductory presentation on BD. As for your question about a definition: >"BD agriculture is an advanced organic farming system that works with the >forces of nature providing increased soil and plant health and quality." A definition has two parts. The first identifies the class of entities to which the item belongs. Your definition does this much. BD is one of the many agricultural frameworks that meets the description given. The second part of a definition distinguishes the entity from others in the class to which it belongs. Your definition does not do this. So you must add to your definition a characterization of what makes BD unique among the class of agricultural frameworks that meet the description given I don't know enough about BD to help in this respect. What I can say is that there seems to be a lot of interest in BD among experienced growers, and so I would like to know more about the framework, too. However, I am not sure that a definition is worthwhile in this instance. What use will the definition serve? - - What I think would be valuable would be a succinct characterization of the BD framework, with all of its essential elements listed and described briefly, with key examples, and references for further study. That's what I would like to be able to read, anyway. As for your audience which you characterize as 'the layman'. Surely the audience brings some background to your presentation. Perhaps they are consumers; perhaps they are experienced farmers; perhaps they are people who grow for their own families with a goal of being free from dependence on the corporate world's 'food'.. Whatever your audience is, your presentation will be much improved if you can address their concerns, and organize your presentation using that old and very sound principle of starting with the familiar and building on that to bring in the unfamiliar, new ideas. If this is an oral presentation, then please understand that you do not have to put everything you know or want to say into it. Reach a logical concluding point and stop. Allow for some digestion time, for the new ideas to sink in. If you have done an effective presentation, the audience will have been paying attention and will have questions that will allow you to bring out further points. If it's a resounding success I'd be really keen to hear or read the presentation somehow, because I am a part of the wider audience for such a presentation on BD. BTW could you supply more explicit references for "Sherry Wildfuer's intro and others". Thanks, and best of luck with the presentation. Terry J. Klokeid, Ph.D. Amblewood Organic Farm Fulford Harbour BC E-mail amblewood@mail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 5 17:01:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20259 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 17:01:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA26021; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 16:56:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com (imo-d09.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.41]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA25831 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 16:53:50 -0400 (EDT) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hQXY0lS1fH (3932) for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 16:55:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5b8f1faf.250432c9@aol.com> Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 16:55:37 EDT Subject: Re: A BD Definition for the Layman To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1708 In a message dated 09/05/1999 4:35:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, klokeid@victoria.tc.ca writes: << BTW could you supply more explicit references for "Sherry Wildfuer's intro and others". Thanks, and best of luck with the presentation. >> Terry, the definition is an introduction chart to set the stage, part of an oral/visual presentation. More will come later in the presentation but a succinct, practical definition is what I am shooting for on an early chart. The audience will be mostly conventional (chemical) farmers/gardeners. Now perhaps you can improve my definition. The S Wildfuer article is on this website http://www.biodynamics.com/ also ATTRA has some info on BD at www.attra.org. Of course there are books on the subject, a few of which I have access to. Dan Lynch From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 5 17:27:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20440 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 17:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA27346; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 17:21:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.prserv.net [165.87.194.229]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27233 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 17:19:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slip202-135-86-52.ak.nz.ibm.net (slip202-135-86-52.ak.nz.ibm.net [202.135.86.52]) by out2.ibm.net (/) with SMTP id VAA66706 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 21:23:12 GMT Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 21:23:12 GMT Message-Id: <199909052123.VAA66706@out2.ibm.net> X-Sender: nzinet.lblair@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lynton Blair Subject: Re: OFF. Malaria treatment ? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1709 I have just been reading "Olive Leaf Extract" by Dr Moron Walker. It describes uses, including a case where it was used to treat malaria - I'm not sure if it affected an actual cure, but the person improved, and continues to use the capsules. (many parasites were excreted). Something else that could work is Colloidal Silver. I hope this helps. Lynton At 09:37 PM 9/4/1999 -0600, you wrote: >Hi Friends: > >I think I got lucky (awaiting blood tests), so that I will appreciate if you could give me ideas on an alternative malaria treatment (what does Anthroposophic medicine has to say about this ailment ?). > >As of yesterday I am taking homeo quinine, and hope to see results soon. > >Thanks for your help. > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 6 11:27:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26252 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25672; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:19:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25596 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-11.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.12]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA21700 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 08:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37D3DA59.D273E414@ap.net> Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 08:14:33 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: A BD Definition for the Layman References: <60638243.25041ae3@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1710 LMvine@aol.com wrote: > All - I am putting together some charts for a presentation on BD. What I am > struggeling with is a concise (~25 words max) definition of BD. Yes I have > read Sherry Wildfuer's intro and others but nothing concise and practical > jumps out at me. > > For the groups discussion I present my "BETA" version of a definition: > "BD agriculture is an advanced organic farming system that works with the > forces of nature providing increased soil and plant health and quality." > > I solicit the help of all to improve the above definition. > > Dan Lynch Dearest Brother Dan: The reason nothing short and practical jumps out at you is simply that biodynamics is not best described in those terms. "Practical" as compared to what? Watching the earth be poisoned? Short? I suppose you could use the universal shorthand word "GOD". The shorter you make the explanation the more questions it will generate. You might consider " A proven succesful system of agriculture which views the farm as an integrated living organism and uses combinations of naturally occuring substances to restore vitality and health to the soil, livestock and farmer." This does however leave out the shortest word "GOD". Good Luck! Just an "opinion", I believe your audience deserves to know about the spirtual basis of this "work". It won't be short, but it might just be a very satisfying meal. Cheers :o), David Whirlderv@ap.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 6 16:21:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00801 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11864; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11734 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:13:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz ([202.50.81.131]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990906201937.PCWP2478302.mta2-rme@nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz> for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:19:37 +1200 Received: by NT_SVR1 with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:07:46 +1200 Message-ID: <6120A29E7C51D0119E9700805F4C5E8D125293@NT_SVR1> From: Lynne Sheridan To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: A BD Definition for the Layman Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:07:44 +1200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1711 Heres my suggestion BD farming utilises the forces of nature to address soil and plant health. The forces of nature include the moon, stars and weather This method of farming was developed XXXX years ago, by XXXXXXXXX Regards Lynne > -----Original Message----- > From: David Isaacs [SMTP:whirlderv@ap.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 3:15 AM > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Subject: Re: A BD Definition for the Layman > > > > LMvine@aol.com wrote: > > > All - I am putting together some charts for a presentation on BD. > What I am > > struggeling with is a concise (~25 words max) definition of BD. Yes > I have > > read Sherry Wildfuer's intro and others but nothing concise and > practical > > jumps out at me. > > > > For the groups discussion I present my "BETA" version of a > definition: > > "BD agriculture is an advanced organic farming system that works > with the > > forces of nature providing increased soil and plant health and > quality." > > > > I solicit the help of all to improve the above definition. > > > > Dan Lynch > > Dearest Brother Dan: > > The reason nothing short and practical jumps out at you is simply that > biodynamics is not best described in those terms. "Practical" as > compared to > what? Watching the earth be poisoned? Short? I suppose you could > use the > universal shorthand word "GOD". The shorter you make the explanation > the more > questions it will generate. You might consider > " A proven succesful system of agriculture which views the farm as an > integrated > living organism and uses combinations of naturally occuring substances > to restore > vitality and health to the soil, livestock and farmer." This does > however leave > out the shortest word "GOD". > > Good Luck! Just an "opinion", I believe your audience deserves to > know about the > spirtual basis of this "work". It won't be short, but it might just > be a very > satisfying meal. > > Cheers :o), > David Whirlderv@ap.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 6 19:11:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03193 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:11:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA20491; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA20393 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (ctca111.vthokies.net [206.153.172.111]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA18510 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:53:28 -0400 Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:53:28 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990906192716.51271030@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: OFF. Malaria treatment ? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1712 At 09:37 PM 9/4/99 -0600, you wrote: >Hi Friends: > >I think I got lucky (awaiting blood tests), so that I will appreciate if you could give me ideas on an alternative malaria treatment (what does Anthroposophic medicine has to say about this ailment ?). > >As of yesterday I am taking homeo quinine, and hope to see results soon. > >Thanks for your help. > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Rudolf Steiner apparently suggested intramuscular eucalyptus oil injections to treat malaria (sort of fighting fire with fire). Ampules for this purpose are available, I believe, from both Weleda and Wala. Best wishes, Malcolm Gardner From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 6 19:11:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03201 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:11:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA20543; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:05:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA20417 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (ctca111.vthokies.net [206.153.172.111]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA18554 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:53:54 -0400 Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:53:54 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990906192730.25978e98@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: Equisetum Arvense tea... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1713 At 12:37 PM 9/5/99 -0600, you wrote: >Dear Mr Gardner: > >A few comments: > >>[MG]: We have to be careful with the names here. I mentioned the >>_so-called_ Giant Horsetail, but I also specified its Latin name, E. >>telemateia; this is the largest of the temperate or boreal climate species, >>but it is a much smaller species than the _tropical_ E. giganteum, which >>occurs as far north as Costa Rica, I believe. >> Regarding E. robustum, I believe this is a close relative, and >>sometimes even regarded as a subspecies, of E. hyemale, the common scouring >>rush, which is an _un_branched species of horsetail that is very high in >>silica and low in sulfates. If your species has branches on its aerial >>shoots--as you suggested earlier--then I don't think you are dealing with >>this species. > >The ethnobotanist I consulted has a PhD from Mont'Pellier and has done extensive clasification of the herbal medical tradition of the region. He is pretty certain that the local Horsetail is E. robustum. > >I probably did not express myself correctly, but as far as I can tell, I never suggested that the horsetail I used has aerial branches. It does not. >From what I seen, and I never seen the spore bearing structure, the sterile shoots are a single main stem (anywhere from 3 to 5 feet long and about 5-7 mm thick at the base) with bamboo like rings, under but near to each ring, the "smaller stems", I would best call them "hairs", grow in a ring pattern (these are about 1mm in diameter and about 5-10 inches long and there are about 8 of this hairs around a given ring). Dear Guillermo, The "smaller stems" or "hairs" that you mention are exactly what the branches of a horsetail look like. I suspect that you have locally _both_ a branched species (probably E. myriochaetum), which seems to be the one that you used on your garden, and an unbranched species (E. robustum = E. hyemale var. robustum), which is indeed commonly used for medical purposes and which I see listed as "cola de caballo." Is that the name of the plant that you got from the wetland area near the volcano crater? Please show your ethnobotanist friend a _sample or picture_ of the species that you actually used. >I'll try to get a picture scanned and will send it to you or to Allan. Please send it to Allan ... I'm not sure I have enough disk space presently to download it. >In reference to the white "mineral" deposits around the pot, I ran across a horsetail reference that mentioned it's saponin content. This might be an explanation for the white deposits, besides, I always use rain water. I don't think so; saponins produce foam or suds like soap (sapo = soap in Latin). >Although I know that horsetail changes from a light green to a dark one as season progresses, the herb that I have purchased here in different seasons always seem to be dark green (like a green olive). > >The other comment I wanted to make is about how well it keeps. In one ocassion I prepared the tea, strainered and diluted it, but when I started stirring, I realize that I had too much liquid for the container I was using and decided to put some 4 litres apart. Those 4 unstirred litres were left in an open plastic bucket and I forget about them. At least two months after the event, I ran into this bucket and the diluted tea looked as good as fresh. The water had a green but clear color and the smell was pleasant. I attributed the well keeping to the antiseptical properties of horsetail, but it puzzles me to see on one side how fast the tea with the herb in it gets into a fermentation, and on the other side, to see that a solution keeps so well. Any comment here ? I'll have to check into this. Thank you for mentioning it. Yours sincerely, Malcolm Gardner >Thanks for your time and interest. > >Warm greetings. > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 6 21:46:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04831 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:46:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA00285; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:38:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from edtnps05.telusplanet.net (edtnps05.telusplanet.net [198.161.157.105]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA00099 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:34:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from edtntnt1-port-296.agt.net ([161.184.193.42]:1390 "HELO blum") by smtp2.telusplanet.net with SMTP id <43740-26416>; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:39:40 -0600 Message-ID: <001301bef8d2$1b69ed20$2ac1b8a1@blum> From: "The Blumhagen's" To: References: <1.5.4.16.19990906192716.51271030@swva.net> Subject: Old Wheat Varieties Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:41:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1714 I was wondering if anyone knew of any old wheat varieties that they wanted to sell. Such as Thatcher, Marquis, or maybe Sonders. If anyone had any information on this it would be apprieciated. Levi Blumhagen From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 6 23:01:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05636 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 23:01:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA06447; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 22:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (root@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca [199.60.222.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06241 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 22:51:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DialupEudora (eudora@vtn1 [199.60.222.3]) by vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA20260 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:55:31 -0700 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: klokeid@victoria.tc.ca (Terry J. Klokeid) Subject: Re: Old Wheat Varieties Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1715 Levi Blumenhagen writes: >I was wondering if anyone knew of any old wheat varieties that they wanted >to sell. Such as Thatcher, Marquis Salt Spring Seeds sells these among their two dozen or so varieties. You can check the catalogue listing at http://www.saltspring.com/ssseeds The prices are $2.50 for a packet of about 30g plus shipping of 3.50 per order (5.50 for USA orders -- what country are you in?). If you want larger quantities, I could enquire for you, as it is a local phone call for me -- S S Seeds does not have e-mail. Terry J. Klokeid, Ph.D. Amblewood Organic Farm Fulford Harbour BC E-mail amblewood@mail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 6 23:29:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05949 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 23:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA07962; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 23:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA07784 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 23:20:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([210.55.85.129]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990907032149.WXIY3442178.mta1-rme@default> for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:21:49 +1200 Message-ID: <37D48517.7393@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 15:23:03 +1200 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: spader/sod References: <01bef6d3$582f9bc0$0a1bd1cd@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1716 manfred palmer wrote: > > We are preparing some 15-year-fallow land for next year's gardens, and > may have access to a spader or a plow. > Question: does anyone have experience with the effectiveness of the > spader in sod so that that layer is incorporated by spring. The > conventional wisdom of the plow is that it shears the roots and is > thereby effective; whereas the spader more or less shears vertically, > maintaining the [horizontal] strata of soil. > We would like to spade a large square plot, and then mulch entirely > with rolled-out round bales.[for squash next year] The rest, 15 acres > we would like to try just spading, and light discing[notched], and /or > 2" rototilling for raised seedbeds. > Will the sod be sufficiently incorporated for next years' use? > Thanks for any experienced insights.............manfred palmer Dear Manfred. For a number of years I have been cultivating cropping land when the moon is in Leo this is to stimulate weed growth and then 11 to 12 days later when moon is in Capricorn I cultivate again to kill the weeds that have germinated. I do this 2 or 3 times before final seed bed preparation.Each year I am getting less weeds and better soils. Cheers Tony Robinson New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 7 05:23:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA08682 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 05:23:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA20678; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 05:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.b4.co.uk (root@[194.207.192.27]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA20601 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 05:15:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [194.93.150.53] ([194.93.150.83]) by ns1.b4.co.uk (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA12869 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:18:14 +0100 (GMT/BST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: mark.es@mail.aecb.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:02:36 +0100 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Mark Moodie Subject: Re: OFF. Malaria treatment ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1717 > >I think I got lucky (awaiting blood tests), so that I will >appreciate if you could give me ideas on an alternative malaria >treatment (what does Anthroposophic medicine has to say about this >ailment ?). oleum aeth. euclaypti 1% amp., i.m. daily or every other day Copper (esp. for chronic "cerebral" forms), eg as Cuprum sulfuricum D4-D6 liq., 10 drops every three to four hours Encourage perspiration Rosemary oil baths or rinses (esp. prophilactically) "The Anthroposophical Approach to Medicine" - Husemann and Wolff p438 of volume 3 I don't pretend to know what all of that means but it's public domain info if you find it useful. A slight caveat in my mind about treating yourself... I also remember something in one of Steiner's lecture courses - Manifestations of Karma ? - in which he says that malaria is a response to egotism in previous incarnations - since the malaria parasite lives off red blood cells this thinning of the blood 'compensates' for the previous imbalance. I've had malaria myself.. chloroquin sorted me out but who knows the deeper consequences, All the best MARK MOODIE mark.es@aecb.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 7 09:03:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10760 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 09:03:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA27449; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA27249 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:51:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip069.computer.net [140.186.252.69]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA27750 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:55:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:54:34 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: September 05, 1999 - September 11, 1999 Message-ID: <92162E44F2D4FB9A852567E50046E1FA.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id IAA27250 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1718 Calendar of the Soul [September 05, 1999 - September 11, 1999] Twenty-third Week (September 8-14) There dims in damp autumnal air The senses' luring magic; The light's revealing radiance Is dulled by hazy veils of mist. In distances around me I can see The autumn's winter sleep; The summer's life has yielded Itself into my keeping. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Es dämpfet herbstlich sich Der Sinne Reizesstreben; In Lichtesoffenbarung mischen Der Nebel dumpfe Schleier sich. Ich selber schau in Raumesweiten Des Herbstes Winterschlaf Der Sommer hat an mich Sich selber hingegeben. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+23 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 7 09:59:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA11585 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 09:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00219; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 09:49:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00111 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 09:47:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-12.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.45]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA23342 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 06:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37D51686.ABE0540F@ap.net> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 06:43:35 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: A BD Definition for the Layman References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1719 "Terry J. Klokeid" wrote: > Hi Dan, > > I applaud your goal of preparing an introductory presentation on BD. > > As for your question about a definition: > >"BD agriculture is an advanced organic farming system that works with the > >forces of nature providing increased soil and plant health and quality." > > A definition has two parts. > The first identifies the class of entities to which the item belongs. Your > definition does this much. BD is one of the many agricultural frameworks > that meets the description given. > > The second part of a definition distinguishes the entity from others in the > class to which it belongs. Your definition does not do this. So you must > add to your definition a characterization of what makes BD unique among the > class of agricultural frameworks that meet the description given I don't > know enough about BD to help in this respect. What I can say is that there > seems to be a lot of interest in BD among experienced growers, and so I > would like to know more about the framework, too. > > However, I am not sure that a definition is worthwhile in this instance. > What use will the definition serve? - - What I think would be valuable > would be a succinct characterization of the BD framework, with all of its > essential elements listed and described briefly, with key examples, and > references for further study. > > That's what I would like to be able to read, anyway. > > As for your audience which you characterize as 'the layman'. Surely the > audience brings some background to your presentation. Perhaps they are > consumers; perhaps they are experienced farmers; perhaps they are people > who grow for their own families with a goal of being free from dependence > on the corporate world's 'food'.. Whatever your audience is, your > presentation will be much improved if you can address their concerns, and > organize your presentation using that old and very sound principle of > starting with the familiar and building on that to bring in the > unfamiliar, new ideas. > > If this is an oral presentation, then please understand that you do not > have to put everything you know or want to say into it. Reach a logical > concluding point and stop. Allow for some digestion time, for the new ideas > to sink in. If you have done an effective presentation, the audience will > have been paying attention and will have questions that will allow you to > bring out further points. > > If it's a resounding success I'd be really keen to hear or read the > presentation somehow, because I am a part of the wider audience for such a > presentation on BD. > > BTW could you supply more explicit references for "Sherry Wildfuer's intro > and others". Thanks, and best of luck with the presentation. > > Terry J. Klokeid, Ph.D. > Amblewood Organic Farm > Fulford Harbour BC > E-mail amblewood@mail.com Dear Brother in the " Dirt;" Along the BD way my toes tripped on the path of Sufism, and one of the Islamic world's more renowned poets. He comes accross 700 years of time and is now the best selling poet of our age. This ditty addresses the spiritual aspect of the "work". Addressing the ineffible, the words are concise only in thought and feelings. They are, perhaps, an esoteric link from the heart to Dr. Steiner's visions. Cheers :o), David/whirlderv@ap.net LOOK AT LOVE how it tangles with the one fallen in love look at spirit how it fuses with earth giving it new life why are you so busy with this or that or good or bad pay attention to how things blend why talk about all the known and the unknown see how unknown merges into the known why think separately of this life and the next when one is born from the last look at your heart and tongue one feels but deaf and dumb the other speaks in words and signs look at water and fire earth and wind enemies and friends all at once the wolf and the lamb the lion and the deer far away yet together look at the unity of this spring and winter manifested in the equinox you too must mingle my friends since the earth and the sky are mingled just for you and me be like sugarcane sweet yet silent don't get mixed up with bitter words my beloved grows right out of my own heart how much more union can there be Mevlana Jellaluddin Rumi ghazal number 2381, translated March 9, 1992 by Nader Khalili. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 7 10:58:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12893 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04600; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04183 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:48:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d141.infoserve.net [199.175.157.141]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA29147 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 07:56:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000601bef941$6dd1a980$8d9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: OFF. Malaria treatment ? Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 07:57:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1720 Dear Mark et al, Keep in mind, Mark, that where G. lives, I supect that there is NO anthr. doctor . From what G. tells me, the nearest anthr. community is hundreds of miles away. For decades, we had the same problem. We have written or phoned an anthr. doctor in Eastern Canada or in Arlesheim, Switzerland, and received medicines thru them. Weleda will often not send medicines without a prescription, but, this CAN be done long-distance. As I was telling G. some time ago, my father was given some preventative homeopathic or anthr. medicine before he headed off to Africa in 1948 by W.S. Stein. I know that it was not an injection; I think it was something in powder form. W.S. Stein had made it himself. My father lived in Africa and S. America right in Malaria Country for 4 years, but, never contracted Malaria. Unfort., my father does not know what the medicine was as he would not have been interested. Regard, Michael -----Original Message----- From: Mark Moodie To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 2:30 AM Subject: Re: OFF. Malaria treatment ? >> >>I think I got lucky (awaiting blood tests), so that I will >>appreciate if you could give me ideas on an alternative malaria >>treatment (what does Anthroposophic medicine has to say about this >>ailment ?). > >oleum aeth. euclaypti 1% amp., i.m. daily or every other day >Copper (esp. for chronic "cerebral" forms), eg as Cuprum sulfuricum >D4-D6 liq., 10 drops every three to four hours >Encourage perspiration >Rosemary oil baths or rinses (esp. prophilactically) > >"The Anthroposophical Approach to Medicine" - Husemann and Wolff p438 >of volume 3 > >I don't pretend to know what all of that means but it's public domain >info if you find it useful. A slight caveat in my mind about treating >yourself... > >I also remember something in one of Steiner's lecture courses - >Manifestations of Karma ? - in which he says that malaria is a >response to egotism in previous incarnations - since the malaria >parasite lives off red blood cells this thinning of the blood >'compensates' for the previous imbalance. I've had malaria myself.. >chloroquin sorted me out but who knows the deeper consequences, > >All the best > >MARK MOODIE >mark.es@aecb.net > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 7 11:01:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12954 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04962; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:55:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04618 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:51:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.80] (pm3mbr2-166-80.intrepid.net [209.190.166.80]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19249 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:55:32 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 23:01:14 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: SE BD Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1721 I know Hugh is probably in recovery mode right now, but did anyone else attend the SE BD conference this past weekend? Howabout telling us about it! Thanks -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 7 11:47:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12893 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04600; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04183 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:48:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d141.infoserve.net [199.175.157.141]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA29147 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 07:56:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000601bef941$6dd1a980$8d9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: OFF. Malaria treatment ? Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 07:57:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1722 Dear Mark et al, Keep in mind, Mark, that where G. lives, I supect that there is NO anthr. doctor . From what G. tells me, the nearest anthr. community is hundreds of miles away. For decades, we had the same problem. We have written or phoned an anthr. doctor in Eastern Canada or in Arlesheim, Switzerland, and received medicines thru them. Weleda will often not send medicines without a prescription, but, this CAN be done long-distance. As I was telling G. some time ago, my father was given some preventative homeopathic or anthr. medicine before he headed off to Africa in 1948 by W.S. Stein. I know that it was not an injection; I think it was something in powder form. W.S. Stein had made it himself. My father lived in Africa and S. America right in Malaria Country for 4 years, but, never contracted Malaria. Unfort., my father does not know what the medicine was as he would not have been interested. Regard, Michael -----Original Message----- From: Mark Moodie To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 2:30 AM Subject: Re: OFF. Malaria treatment ? >> >>I think I got lucky (awaiting blood tests), so that I will >>appreciate if you could give me ideas on an alternative malaria >>treatment (what does Anthroposophic medicine has to say about this >>ailment ?). > >oleum aeth. euclaypti 1% amp., i.m. daily or every other day >Copper (esp. for chronic "cerebral" forms), eg as Cuprum sulfuricum >D4-D6 liq., 10 drops every three to four hours >Encourage perspiration >Rosemary oil baths or rinses (esp. prophilactically) > >"The Anthroposophical Approach to Medicine" - Husemann and Wolff p438 >of volume 3 > >I don't pretend to know what all of that means but it's public domain >info if you find it useful. A slight caveat in my mind about treating >yourself... > >I also remember something in one of Steiner's lecture courses - >Manifestations of Karma ? - in which he says that malaria is a >response to egotism in previous incarnations - since the malaria >parasite lives off red blood cells this thinning of the blood >'compensates' for the previous imbalance. I've had malaria myself.. >chloroquin sorted me out but who knows the deeper consequences, > >All the best > >MARK MOODIE >mark.es@aecb.net > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 7 12:46:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15025 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:46:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14913; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:37:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14435 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:33:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:33:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909071633.MAA14435@envirolink.org> Received: (qmail 24167 invoked from network); 7 Sep 1999 16:37:28 -0000 Received: from i48-06-20.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO DAVE) (216.26.3.84) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 7 Sep 1999 16:37:28 -0000 X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: OFF: GE Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1723 =======================Electronic Edition======================== . . . RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY #666 . . ---September 2, 1999--- . . HEADLINES: . . THE BAD SEED . . ========== . . Environmental Research Foundation . . P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403 . . Fax (410) 263-8944; E-mail: erf@rachel.org . . ========== . . All back issues are available by E-mail: send E-mail to . . info@rachel.org with the single word HELP in the message. . . Back issues are also available from http://www.rachel.org. . . To start your own free subscription, send E-mail to . . listserv@rachel.org with the words . . SUBSCRIBE RACHEL-WEEKLY YOUR NAME in the message. . . The Rachel newsletter is now also available in Spanish; . . to learn how to subscribe, send the word AYUDA in an . . E-mail message to info@rachel.org. . ================================================================= THE BAD SEED Monsanto Corporation of St. Louis has been maneuvering for more than a decade to dominate the world's supply of seed for staple crops (corn, soybeans, potatoes) -- a business plan that Monsanto's critics say is nothing short of diabolical. Monsanto says it is just devilishly good business. Monsanto has spent upwards of $8 billion in recent years buying numerous U.S. seed companies. As a result, two firms, Monsanto and Pioneer (recently purchased by DuPont), now dominate the U.S. seed business. Monsanto specializes in genetically modified seeds -- seeds having particular properties that Monsanto has patented. The U.S. government is very enthusiastic about these new technologies. From the viewpoint of U.S. foreign policy, genetically modified seeds offer a key advantage over traditional seeds: because genetically modified seeds are patented, it is illegal for a farmer to retain seed from this year's crop to plant next year. To use these patented seeds, farmers must buy new seed from Monsanto every year. Thus a farmer who adopts genetically modified seeds and fails to retain a stock of traditional seeds could become dependent upon a transnational corporation. Nations whose farmers grew dependent upon corporations for seed might forfeit considerable political independence. The Clinton/Gore administration has been aggressively helping Monsanto promote ag-biotech, bypassing U.S. health and safety regulations to promote new, untested gene-altered products. A key component of the U.S./Monsanto plan to dominate world agriculture with genetically modified seeds is the absence of labeling of genetically engineered foods. All U.S. foods carry labels listing the ingredients: salt, sugar, water, vitamins, etc. But three separate executive agencies -- U.S. Food and Drug Administration, U.S. Department of Agriculture, and U.S. Environmental Protection Agency -- have ruled that genetically-modified foods deserve an exception: they can be sold without being labeled "genetically modified." This strategy has successfully prevented consumers from exercising informed choice in the marketplace, reducing the likelihood of a consumer revolt, at least in the U.S., at least for now. Earlier this year, opposition to genetically modified foods exploded in England and quickly spread to the European continent. (See REHW #649.) Burgeoning consumer opposition has now swept into Asia and back to North America. The NEW YORK TIMES reported last week that, "the Clinton Administration's efforts have grown increasingly urgent, in an attempt to contain the aversion to these crops that is leaping from continent to continent."[1] ** Recently Japan -- the largest Asian importer of U.S. food -- passed a law requiring the labeling of genetically modified foods.[1] A subsidiary of Honda Motor Company immediately announced that it will build a plant in Ohio and hire farmers to supply it with traditional, unaltered soy beans. Soy is the basis of tofu, a staple food in Japan. Subsequently, the largest and third-largest Japanese beer makers, Kirin Brewery and Sapporo Breweries, Ltd., announced that they will stop using genetically modified corn by 2001. Other Japanese brewers are expected to follow suit. ** The Reuters North America wire service reported Sept. 1 that South Korea, Australia, and New Zealand have all now passed laws requiring the labeling of genetically modified foods. Reuters says the U.S. government has publicly protested against such labeling laws and has privately lobbied hard against them, unsuccessfully. ** Grupo Maseca, Mexico's leading producer of corn flour -- recently announced it will no longer purchase any genetically modified corn. Corn flour is made into tortillas, a Mexican staple. Mexico buys $500 million of U.S. corn each year, so the Grupo Maseca announcement sent a chill through midwestern corn farmers who planted Monsanto's genetically modified seeds.[1] About 1/3 of this year's U.S. corn crop is being grown from genetically modified seeds. ** Gerber and Heinz -- the two leading manufacturers of baby foods in the U.S. -- announced in July that they would not allow genetically modified corn or soybeans in any of their baby foods.[2] After the baby food announcements, Iams, the high-end pet food producer, announced that it would not purchase any of the seven varieties of genetically modified corn that have not been approved by the European Union. This announcement cut off an alternative use that U.S. farmer's had hoped to make of corn rejected by overseas buyers. ** As the demand for traditional, unmodified corn and soy has grown, a two-price system for crops has developed in the U.S. -- a higher price for traditional, unmodified crops, and a lower price for genetically modified crops. For example, Archer Daniels Midland is paying some farmers 18 cents less per bushel for genetically modified soybeans, compared to the traditional product.[1] ** The American Corn Growers Association, which represents mainly family farmers, has told its members that they should consider planting only traditional, unmodified seed next spring because it may not be possible to export genetically modified corn.[1] ** Deutsche Bank, Europe's largest bank, has issued two reports within the past six months advising its large institutional investors to abandon ag-biotech companies like Monsanto and Novartis.[3] In July, 1998, Monsanto stock was selling for $56 per share; today it is about $41, a 27% decline despite the phenomenal success of Monsanto's new arthritis medicine, Celebrex. In its most recent report, Deutsche Bank said, "...[I]t appears the food companies, retailers, grain processors, and governments are sending a signal to the seed producers that 'we are not ready for GMOs [genetically modified organisms].'" Deutsche Bank's Washington, D.C., analysts, Frank Mitsch and Jennifer Mitchell, announced nine months ago that ag-biotech "was going the way of the nuclear industry in this country." "But we count ourselves surprised at how rapidly this forecast appears to be playing out," they told the London GUARDIAN in late August.[3] In Europe, the ag-biotech controversy is playing out upon a stage created by an earlier -- and ongoing -- scientific dispute over sex hormones in beef.[4] About 90% of U.S. beef cattle are treated with sex hormones -- three naturally-occurring (estradiol, progesterone, and testosterone) and three synthetic hormones that mimic the natural ones (zeranol, melengesterol acetate, and trenbolone acetate). Hormone treatment makes cattle grow faster and produces more tender, flavorful cuts of beef. Since 1995 the European Union has prohibited the treatment of any farm animals with sex hormones intended to promote growth, on grounds that sex hormones are known to cause several human cancers. As a byproduct of that prohibition, the EU refuses to allow the import of hormone-treated beef from the U.S. and Canada. The U.S. asserts that hormone-treated beef is entirely safe and that the European ban violates the global free trade regime that the U.S. has worked religiously for 20 years to create. The U.S. argues that sex hormones only promote human cancers in hormone-sensitive tissues, such as the female breast and uterus. Therefore, the U.S. argues, the mechanism of carcinogenic action must be activation of hormone "receptors" and therefore there is a "threshold" -- a level of hormones below which no cancers will occur. Based on risk assessments, the U.S. government claims to know where that threshold level lies. Furthermore, the U.S. claims it has established a regulatory process that prevents any farmer from exceeding the threshold level in his or her cows. In a 136-page report issued in late April, an EU scientific committee argues that hormones may cause some human cancers by an entirely different mechanism -- by interfering directly with DNA.[5] If that were true, there would be no threshold for safety and the only safe dose of sex hormones in beef would be zero. "If you assume no threshold, you should continually be taking steps to get down to lower levels, because no level is safe," says James Bridges, a toxicologist at the University of Surrey in Guilford, England.[4] Secondly, the EU spot-checked 258 meat samples from the Hormone Free Cattle program run jointly by the U.S. beef industry and the U.S. Department of Agriculture. This program is intended to raise beef cattle without the use of hormones, thus producing beef eligible for import into Europe. The spot check found that 12% of the "hormone free" cattle had in fact been treated with sex hormones. EU officials cite this as evidence that growth hormones are poorly regulated in the U.S. beef industry and that Europeans might be exposed to higher-than-allowed concentrations if the ban on North American imports were lifted. "These revelations are embarrassing for U.S. officials," reports SCIENCE magazine.[4] Nevertheless, the U.S. continues to assert that its hormone-treated beef is 100% safe. Thus we have a classic scientific controversy characterized by considerable scientific uncertainty. This particular scientific dispute has profound implications for the future of all regulation under a global free trade regime -- including regulation of toxic chemicals -- because the European Union is basing its opposition to hormone-treated beef on the precautionary principle. The U.S. insists that this precautionary approach is an illegal restraint of free trade. The EU's position is clearly precautionary: "Where scientific evidence is not black and white, policy should err on the side of caution so that there is zero risk to the consumer," the EU says.[6] The Danish pediatric researcher, Niels Skakkebaek, says the burden of proof lies with those putting hormones in beef: "The possible health effects from the hormones have hardly been studied -- the burden of proof should lie with the American beef industry," Skakkebaek told CHEMICAL WEEK, a U.S. chemical industry publication that is following the beef controversy closely.[6] It appears that European activists have seized upon hormones in beef, and upon Monsanto's seed domination plan, as a vehicle for opposing a "global free trade" regime in which nations lose their power to regulate markets to protect public health or the environment. The NEW YORK TIMES reports that a Peasant Confederation of European farmers derives much of its intellectual inspiration and direction from a new organization, called Attac, formed last year in France to fight the spread of global free trade regimes.[7] The Confederation has destroyed several McDonald's restaurants and dumped rotten vegetables in others. Patrice Vidieu, the secretary-general of the Peasant Confederation, told the TIMES, "What we reject is the idea that the power of the marketplace becomes the dominant force in all societies, and that multinationals like McDonald's or Monsanto come to impose the food we eat and the seeds we plant." What began as consumer opposition to genetically-modified seed appears to be turning into an open revolt against the 25-year-old U.S.-led effort to impose free-trade regimes world-wide, enthroning transnational corporations in the process. If approached strategically by ALLIANCES of U.S. activists and their overseas counterparts (and it MUST NOT be viewed as merely a labeling dispute) genetic engineering could become the most important fight in more than a century. --Peter Montague (National Writers Union, UAW Local 1981/AFL-CIO) ========== [1] "Melody Petersen, "New Trade Threat for U.S. Farmers," NEW YORK TIMES August 29, 1999, pgs. A1, A18. [2] Lucette Lagnado, "Strained Peace: Gerber Baby Food, Grilled by Greenpeace, Plans Swift Overhaul -- Gene-Modified Corn and Soy Will Go, Although Firm Feels Sure They Are Safe -- Heinz Takes Action, Too," WALL STREET JOURNAL July 30, 1999, pg. A1. [3] Paul Brown and John Vidal, "GM Investors Told to Sell Their Shares," THE GUARDIAN [London] August 25, 1999, pg. unknown. [4] Michael Balter, "Scientific Cross-Claims Fly in Continuing Beef War," SCIENCE Vol. 284 (May 28, 1999), pgs. 1453-1455. [5] "Opinion of the Scientific Committee on Veterinary Measures Relating to Public Health; Assessment of Potential Risks to Human Health from Hormone Residues in Bovine Meat and Meat Products." European Commission, April 30, 1999. 139 pgs. The report is available in PDF format from: http://europa.eu.int/comm/dg24/health/sc/scv/out21_en.html . [6] "Europe's Beef Ban Tests Precautionary Principle," CHEMICAL WEEK August 11, 1999, pg. unknown. [7] Roger Cohen, "Fearful Over the Future, Europe Seizes on Food," NEW YORK TIMES August 29, 1999, pg. unknown. Descriptor terms: genetic engineering; farming; agriculture; monsanto; pioneer; france; peasant confederation; beef industry; hormones; ################################################################ NOTICE In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107 this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving it for research and educational purposes. Environmental Research Foundation provides this electronic version of RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY free of charge even though it costs the organization considerable time and money to produce it. We would like to continue to provide this service free. You could help by making a tax-deductible contribution (anything you can afford, whether $5.00 or $500.00). Please send your tax-deductible contribution to: Environmental Research Foundation, P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403-7036. Please do not send credit card information via E-mail. For further information about making tax-deductible contributions to E.R.F. by credit card please phone us toll free at 1-888-2RACHEL, or at (410) 263-1584, or fax us at (410) 263-8944. --Peter Montague, Editor ################################################################ ==================== David Robison Stellar Processes 1033 SW Yamhill Suite 405 Portland, OR 97205 (503) 827-8336 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 7 13:42:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16109 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 13:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20038; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 13:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19839 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 13:33:54 -0400 (EDT) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hYPLa07549 (3938) for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 13:37:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1b4f838c.2506a746@aol.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 13:37:10 EDT Subject: Re: SE BD Conference To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1724 In a message dated 09/07/1999 10:59:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, igg@igg.com writes: << I know Hugh is probably in recovery mode right now, but did anyone else attend the SE BD conference this past weekend? Howabout telling us about it! Thanks -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com >> I was at SE BD for Viticulture seminar and first day only. Since it was first BD conf, hard to gauge. Apparently turnout lower than before due to late mailing/communication for event. Weather great, and I got info I wanted from the conference but somewhat overloaded. Met a lot of great folks and ate some good food. Hugh said before conference his e-mail was down. Dan L From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 7 16:42:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19803 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:42:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA05198; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:35:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05049 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.104] (pm3mbr2-166-104.intrepid.net [209.190.166.104]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26866 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:37:33 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1b4f838c.2506a746@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 04:43:11 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: SE BD Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1725 >In a message dated 09/07/1999 10:59:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, igg@igg.com >writes: > ><< I know Hugh is probably in recovery mode right now, but did anyone else > attend the SE BD conference this past weekend? Howabout telling us about it! > > Thanks > > -Allan Balliett > igg@igg.com > >> >I was at SE BD for Viticulture seminar and first day only. Since it was >first BD conf, hard to gauge. Apparently turnout lower than before due to >late mailing/communication for event. > >Weather great, and I got info I wanted from the conference but somewhat >overloaded. Met a lot of great folks and ate some good food. > >Hugh said before conference his e-mail was down. Dan L OK, great! (And congratulation for making the trek!) HOW WAS THE VITICULTURE SEMINAR, DAN? :-) Any good Greg Willis secrets to share? -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 7 18:12:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21654 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:12:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14579; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:06:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14155 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:02:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-05.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.6]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA00718 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37D58A9C.27E9D20B@ap.net> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 14:58:52 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: money/ Robinson Crusoe References: <000f01bef41d$85130e00$57cb6cce@netacc.net> <001601bef3fd$392739a0$6a7436ce@dbrown.wavecom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1726 Allan Balliett wrote: > >Be the most productive farmer in Comala first and when your neighbors > >begin to >notice, teach them. Like a ripple, then a wave, a tsunami of > >health, energized >by faith WILL BE NOTICED. > > While this certainly seems to be a reasonable expectation, it's worth > pointing out that Joel Salatin himself is surrounded by farming neighbors > who are not interested in adopting his approach to natural sustainable > farming mor to direct marketing to 'friends' at the local farmer's market > (many of Joel's 'friends' drive hundreds of miles to see him at the > market), even though they see hundreds of people come from far away every > summer to learn how Joel does what he does. > > I asked Joel about this. He said that without a pradigm shift, people > automatic rationalize what they see in terms of their own current model. > Successful examples outside of their paradigm are only rationalized away > ("He gets more sun over there." "He has all the luck!") Making the paradigm > shift almost requires a literal 'bolt from the blue,' particular for those > who chose to lead the unexamined life. > > How many, like myself, came into biodynamics and natural food while trying > to find a cure for an illness the AMA had given up on? Near death > experiences are one of the classic 'bolts from the blue.' > > It's also worth pointing out that my son Dylan has been tormented by a > bully since returning to public school this year. Yesterday we found out > that the bully, who strangely has only one eyebrow, is the son of the > county extension agent, a man who has never attended the Mid-Atlantic > Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Confernece, even though it is held 10 > minutes from the door of his office and would certainly give him a free > pass, should he ever request one. (And yes, he does forward our press > release throught the ag announcement network.) > > Good new though! The agent did show an interest in seeing Joel Salatin > speak this year! :-) > > -Allan > igg@igg.com Dear Allan: Along the Way, I also picked myself up a "Teacher" although he insists that we're just friends. And once upon a time he said to me " people will be who they are ". Not only can't you make that horse drink but you can't even get most to the water. But the Lord acts in mysterous ways, each "no" a lesson to prepare us for that guest who says "YES!". And you've got to admit that preaching success even to believers, however few, beats the pants off cursing the darkness. While I'm being the eternal optimist, just another quickee. happened to be invited recently to meet with 87 year old Guruji. 40 years in a cave, 12,000 feet up the side of a himalayan peak. When Divanananda Saraswati was asked what part of his life was the best, the most memorable, he replyed with a twinkle " Allof it, I loved everything". Can we aim for less? There's no score but love. Take the gift, spread the word and sometimes it WILL take root, exactly as intended. "Love, all of it." :o) Best Regards, David/whirlderv@ap.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 7 20:03:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA26391 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:03:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA22135; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22069 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:47:43 -0400 (EDT) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hARFa01987 (4395) for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:51:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:51:10 EDT Subject: Re: SE BD Conference To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1727 In a message dated 09/07/1999 4:40:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, igg@igg.com writes: << OK, great! (And congratulation for making the trek!) HOW WAS THE VITICULTURE SEMINAR, DAN? :-) Any good Greg Willis secrets to share? -Allan igg@igg.com >> Well Allan it appears that Greg has taken BD to a higher level with his horn clay and other new preps. As I understand it Dr Steiner mentioned clay or horn clay but he never addressed it due to his untimely death. Hugh Courtney told me he experimented with it some years ago but then Greg took it an "ran with it". There was even a vineyard manager who gave a presentation, Darek, who is a customer of Gregs and he had impressive things to say about BD and grapes. Said he would never go back to conventional viticulture. I think it's similar to a spiritual path, once you start down it you can't go back. I was so impressed that I am going to be the "eastern guy" for Gregs business. Dan L From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 7 22:16:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04289 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00637; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from edtnps04.telusplanet.net (edtnps04.telusplanet.net [198.161.157.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00248 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:02:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from edtntnt3-port-144.agt.net ([161.184.198.144]:1119 "HELO blum") by smtp1.telusplanet.net with SMTP id <67956-15988>; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:06:12 -0600 Message-ID: <000a01bef99f$33d584a0$90c6b8a1@blum> From: "The Blumhagen's" To: References: Subject: Re: Old Wheat Varieties Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:09:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1728 Terry J. Klokeid wrote: > The prices are $2.50 for a packet of about 30g plus shipping of 3.50 per > order (5.50 for USA orders -- what country are you in?). If you want > larger quantities, I could enquire for you, as it is a local phone call for > me. Thank-you for your help Terry. I have looked a few places with little luck and was happy to see that someone stocks these varieties and in my country too, (Canada). I was however more interested in larger quantities of the grain. Do they perhaps sell by the bushel? If so I am interested. Sincerely, Levi Blumhagen From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 7 22:23:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA12410 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01182; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:17:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00999 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (cust54.nrvmax2.tor1.netrover.com [205.209.21.54]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA14061 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:17:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-From: villager@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: Re: spader/sod Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:21:08 -0400 Message-ID: <01bef9a0$cfcaa380$3615d1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1729 Dear Allan : Thanks for your useful account of experience with the spader. I had checked Eugene's site some time ago, and have talked on the phone with him a few times., promoting his products in this area. I was surprised that the average bite is about a quarter inch. In that case, doesn't it come close to the same [detrimental] effect as a rototiller?....albeit not churned. I thought all along that the bite was 1 - 4 inches, tearing off at the bottom and shunting the clump, somewhat intact, backward, and retaining its horizontal strata. Does your spader have the optional tine shaft on the rear to break up clumps? Also, what is the exact size and working depth of yours? ..and what kind of tractor/hp/gear are you most satisfied with? Regards,.............. manfred -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, September 04, 1999 12:47 PM Subject: Re: spader/sod >> We are preparing some 15-year-fallow land for next year's gardens, >>and may have access to a spader or a plow. Question: does anyone have >>experience with the effectiveness of the spader in sod so that that layer >>is incorporated by spring. The conventional wisdom of the plow is that it >>shears the roots and is thereby effective; whereas the spader more or >>less shears vertically, maintaining the [horizontal] strata of soil. We >>would like to spade a large square plot, and then mulch entirely with >>rolled-out round bales.[for squash next year] The rest, 15 acres we would >>like to try just spading, and light discing[notched], and /or 2" >>rototilling for raised seedbeds. Will the sod be sufficiently incorporated >>for next years' use? Thanks for any experienced >>insights.............manfred palmer > >Dear Manfred - Several times now I've used the Totella spader to cultivate >fields which have been fallow for 1 to 10 years. Yes, I've planted crops >into the spaded earth, sometimes in the following spring, sometimes >(almost) immediately. (I always apply BC before and after spading.) A >properly adjusted spader 'pulled' at the proper speed will 'punch down' the >cover, pushing it 7-8 inches beneath the soil (a typical spader 'bite' s.b. >less than a quarter inch; if the soil is living and the cover isn't Johnson >grass, you should get good incorporation. > >You might want to take a look at the SPADER CLINIC on Eugene Canales' page: >http://www.approtecag.com > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 7 22:40:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01564 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA02185; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:28:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02089 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:27:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.17] (pm3mbr1-166-17.intrepid.net [209.190.166.17]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA01623 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:31:33 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01bef9a0$cfcaa380$3615d1cd@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:36:51 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: spader/sod Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1730 >Dear Allan : >Thanks for your useful account of experience with the spader. I had checked >Eugene's site some time ago, and have talked on the phone with him a few >times., promoting his products in this area. >I was surprised that the average bite is about a quarter inch. In that >case, doesn't it come close to the same [detrimental] effect as a >rototiller?....albeit not churned. Besides not inverting, a REAL spader - as opposed to the Dutch 'spader' - Does not create hardpan, does not osterize, does NOT require a friggin power harrow afterward >I thought all along that the bite was 1 - 4 inches, tearing off at the >bottom and shunting the clump, somewhat intact, backward, and retaining its >horizontal strata. >Does your spader have the optional tine shaft on the rear to break up >clumps? >Also, what is the exact size and working depth of yours? ..and what kind of >tractor/hp/gear are you most satisfied with? >Regards,.............. manfred Nothing exact, manfred. 7ft wide, working for a 5ft finished bed. I think we 'bite' 11 inches deep, but facture the next 18 inches. What you want is a creeper gear as often comes in a 'vegetable tractor.' What you want with my machine is .3 to .8 mph. This is low low. Compare to compound in our JD 3020, which has a lowend ground speed of 2.3 mph - way too fast for a real spader, according to Eugene. Last msg I left out that standing cover should be mowed, flailed and allowed to dry about 3 days before using the spader to incorporate. I have, however, spaded right into fallow fields of standing perrenial plants. >-----Original Message----- >From: Allan Balliett >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Saturday, September 04, 1999 12:47 PM >Subject: Re: spader/sod > > >>> We are preparing some 15-year-fallow land for next year's gardens, >>>and may have access to a spader or a plow. Question: does anyone have >>>experience with the effectiveness of the spader in sod so that that layer >>>is incorporated by spring. The conventional wisdom of the plow is that it >>>shears the roots and is thereby effective; whereas the spader more or >>>less shears vertically, maintaining the [horizontal] strata of soil. We >>>would like to spade a large square plot, and then mulch entirely with >>>rolled-out round bales.[for squash next year] The rest, 15 acres we would >>>like to try just spading, and light discing[notched], and /or 2" >>>rototilling for raised seedbeds. Will the sod be sufficiently incorporated >>>for next years' use? Thanks for any experienced >>>insights.............manfred palmer >> >>Dear Manfred - Several times now I've used the Totella spader to cultivate >>fields which have been fallow for 1 to 10 years. Yes, I've planted crops >>into the spaded earth, sometimes in the following spring, sometimes >>(almost) immediately. (I always apply BC before and after spading.) A >>properly adjusted spader 'pulled' at the proper speed will 'punch down' the >>cover, pushing it 7-8 inches beneath the soil (a typical spader 'bite' s.b. >>less than a quarter inch; if the soil is living and the cover isn't Johnson >>grass, you should get good incorporation. >> >>You might want to take a look at the SPADER CLINIC on Eugene Canales' page: >>http://www.approtecag.com >> >> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 7 23:43:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA12084 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 23:43:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA06138; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 23:33:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mci-a.mp.campus.mci.net (mci-a.mp.campus.mci.net [208.155.143.250]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA06022 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 23:31:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lhoward.clemson (s07-pm05.clemson.campuscwix.net [204.189.110.156]) by mci-a.mp.campus.mci.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA01762; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990908034439.006ab66c@clemson.campus.mci.net> X-Sender: lhoward@clemson.campus.mci.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 23:44:39 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lance or Dana Howard Subject: Re: SE BD Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1731 At 11:01 PM 9/6/99 -0400, Allan Balliett wrote: >I know Hugh is probably in recovery mode right now, but did anyone else >attend the SE BD conference this past weekend? Howabout telling us about it! > I'll submit a report after you (Allan) report on your conversation with Wendell Berry (or did I miss it during one of my unrequested unsubscriptions?). anxiously, Lance Lance & Dana Howard Loose Stone Farm Central, South Carolina 864/639-0822 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 8 05:53:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA15996 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 05:53:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA20448; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 05:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA20307 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 05:45:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.190] (pm3mbr4-166-190.intrepid.net [209.190.166.190]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA16256 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 05:49:06 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19990908034439.006ab66c@clemson.campus.mci.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:54:44 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: SE BD Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1732 Dear Lance - The Wendell Berry 'report' is for ACRES USA and will be published here on BD Now! the day that it is mailed to ACRES. In the meantime, it is on the back burner as I prepare for the Mid-Atlantic BD Conference October 1-3 and the Bioneers and Bioneers 'seed saving' conference and workshop that follow it. Hopefully you won't tie your ability to share with mine and get your thoughts and experiences up here before they fade away. (Myself, I'm keeping the faith in SONY.) Thanks -Allan Balliett >At 11:01 PM 9/6/99 -0400, Allan Balliett wrote: >>I know Hugh is probably in recovery mode right now, but did anyone else >>attend the SE BD conference this past weekend? Howabout telling us about it! >> > >I'll submit a report after you (Allan) report on your conversation with >Wendell Berry (or did I miss it during one of my unrequested >unsubscriptions?). > >anxiously, > >Lance > > > >Lance & Dana Howard >Loose Stone Farm >Central, South Carolina >864/639-0822 > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 8 22:34:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00662 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA06509; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:24:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06174 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.112] (pm3mbr3-166-112.intrepid.net [209.190.166.112]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA17347 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:24:53 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:30:10 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Shanti Yoga T-Shirts Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1733 Can someone pass me the URL for the Shanti Yoga T-Shirt page? Thanks -Allan Balliett From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 9 04:02:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA04159 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 04:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA21125; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:52:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA21027 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-84.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.84]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA07790; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 17:53:40 +1000 Message-ID: <00a601befa98$2a622280$42431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: "Sam Statham" , "Ian Reed" , "Betty Khoo" , "Welink" , Subject: Fw: effects of gmo's on organic farming Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:45:37 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1734 This was passed on from another list and it is really important, Cheryl Kemp. --Date: Thursday, 9 September 1999 10:12 am Subject: FW: effects of gmo's on organic farming >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dorothy Bowes [SMTP:asehaqld@powerup.com.au] >> Sent: Sunday, 5 September 1999 6:11 >> To: Listbot >> Subject: effects of gmo's on organic farming >> >> I would like to describe the impact of genetic engineering on our 3400 >> acre >> organic farm. It would be helpful if these sorts of observations could be >> >> confirmed (or not) by research. >> >> There are three main changes that we have seen in North Dakota. >> >> 1) We can no longer plant crops that are insect or wind pollinated which >> are >> known to be genetically modified. Accordingly, we did not plant canola >> this >> year. Canola had been a good crop in our rotation. This limits the >> diversity >> of foodstuffs both on farm and in the market place. How many farmers are >> changing their rotations because we can't "fence in" GMOs and keep them >> off >> our land? >> >> 2) Different pesticides are being used with GMOs which cause alarming >> damage >> across the landscape. Because of weather changes, SE North Dakota is now >> part >> of the corn and soybean belt. Pesticides used with "Liberty" Corn cause >> root >> systems to grow up instead of down. This, apparently, makes plants grow >> topsy >> turvy - the crown ends up pointing down to the earth. Other pesticides, >> particularly herbicides, are rejuvenated in rain. Because we live in the >> windiest state in the Union, the damage is ubiquitous. Of course, GMOs >> are >> not the only "cause" of new herbicides. However, they are part of the >> industrialised approach to agriculture which promotes chemicals which are >> antithetical to life. >> >> 3) The timing of herbicide spraying has changed. Farmers now spray for >> the >> entire season instead of just in the spring. While GMOs are just one of >> several factors instigating season-long spraying, they are a significant >> factor. This means that both plants and humans are exposed to pesticides >> from >> April through September. >> >> I find it ironic that I am expected to feed the world but can't expect to >> feed >> my own family because of herbicide damage to orchards, vineyards, gardens >> and >> farms. An unscientific survey among organic farmers in the upper midwest >> indicates that herbicide damage has increased on our land over the past 3 >> years. >> >> Some of you may know that research has shown that babies conceived in the >> spring in rural Minnesota (just next door to North Dakota) have a higher >> rate >> of birth defects. Does this mean that we need to issue warnings that we >> should not conceive for the six months of April-Sept. because of the risk >> of >> birth defects? >> >> Damage resulting from GMOs is not hypothetical. One of the other longest >> standing organic farmers in North Dakota is now asking if he will be able >> to >> continue farming and gardening, not because of the economic crisis but >> because >> the chemical damage on his farm and garden is so serious. He raises all >> the >> food for the 3 generations of family on his farm. He raises seed for >> garden >> supply companies. And he raises small grains. >> >> Unfortunately, if we want organic farming to continue, we will need to >> intervene ... and soon. >> >> Carolyn Raffensperger >> Kirschenmann Family Farms. >> >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ To >> unsubscribe, write to seqenv-unsubscribe@listbot.com MSN Messenger Service >> lets you stay in touch instantly with your family & friends - Visit >> http://messenger.msn.com > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 9 14:19:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07348 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:19:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29020; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:10:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28739 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:07:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.01166243@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:10:49 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 9 Sep 99 14:10:55 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 9 Sep 99 14:10:33 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:10:28 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: bizzy bizzy bizzy Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000601bef941$6dd1a980$8d9dafc7@333> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1735 Hey there! I think I saw in my mounting pile of e-mails that you sent me one that looks to be a personal conversational one. But I won't open it until I have time to respond. Just want you to know that I haven't fallen off the face of the earth. I have to give a presentation re our project here in DC next week, and I'm VERY busy working on that. Also, Francisco is preparing for a trip to Dominican Republic AND we're being tapped to help one of his sister and her family come over here (to US) and dealing with all this is also taking much time and energy. Then, last week I got a call about a job I applied for at UC Davis and they want me to go for an interview the last week of Sept. So I'm planning and stressing over that too. I probably won't be back to normal e-mail mode until Oct., though I might get a few out in between DC and Calif. Hope all is well. Will write again when I get the chance. Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 9 14:49:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08255 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:49:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01164; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00903 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:34:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Fscjamie@aol.com Received: from Fscjamie@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hTIZa22756 (4010) for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:38:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:38:20 EDT Subject: Re: bizzy bizzy bizzy To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 86 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1736 Dear Anita, I noticed that you were planning a trip to the Dominican Republic. Very interesting! I just returned from there doing some work with the rice farmers; and I'm interested in your intended work. Let me know. Regards, Jamie Fisher From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 9 14:54:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08567 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:54:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01576; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:45:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01440 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:43:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-15.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.48]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA16191 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37D7FED2.257167E4@ap.net> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 11:39:14 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Fw: effects of gmo's on organic farming References: <00a601befa98$2a622280$42431ccb@cherylke> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1737 Cheryl Kemp wrote: > This was passed on from another list and it is really important, > Cheryl Kemp. > --Date: Thursday, 9 September 1999 10:12 am > Subject: FW: effects of gmo's on organic farming > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Dorothy Bowes [SMTP:asehaqld@powerup.com.au] > >> Sent: Sunday, 5 September 1999 6:11 > >> To: Listbot > >> Subject: effects of gmo's on organic farming > >> > >> I would like to describe the impact of genetic engineering on our 3400 > >> acre > >> organic farm. It would be helpful if these sorts of observations could > be > >> > >> confirmed (or not) by research. > >> > >> There are three main changes that we have seen in North Dakota. > >> > >> 1) We can no longer plant crops that are insect or wind pollinated which > >> are > >> known to be genetically modified. Accordingly, we did not plant canola > >> this > >> year. Canola had been a good crop in our rotation. This limits the > >> diversity > >> of foodstuffs both on farm and in the market place. How many farmers are > >> changing their rotations because we can't "fence in" GMOs and keep them > >> off > >> our land? > >> > >> 2) Different pesticides are being used with GMOs which cause alarming > >> damage > >> across the landscape. Because of weather changes, SE North Dakota is now > >> part > >> of the corn and soybean belt. Pesticides used with "Liberty" Corn cause > >> root > >> systems to grow up instead of down. This, apparently, makes plants grow > >> topsy > >> turvy - the crown ends up pointing down to the earth. Other pesticides, > >> particularly herbicides, are rejuvenated in rain. Because we live in the > >> windiest state in the Union, the damage is ubiquitous. Of course, GMOs > >> are > >> not the only "cause" of new herbicides. However, they are part of the > >> industrialised approach to agriculture which promotes chemicals which are > >> antithetical to life. > >> > >> 3) The timing of herbicide spraying has changed. Farmers now spray for > >> the > >> entire season instead of just in the spring. While GMOs are just one of > >> several factors instigating season-long spraying, they are a significant > >> factor. This means that both plants and humans are exposed to pesticides > >> from > >> April through September. > >> > >> I find it ironic that I am expected to feed the world but can't expect to > >> feed > >> my own family because of herbicide damage to orchards, vineyards, gardens > >> and > >> farms. An unscientific survey among organic farmers in the upper midwest > >> indicates that herbicide damage has increased on our land over the past 3 > >> years. > >> > >> Some of you may know that research has shown that babies conceived in the > >> spring in rural Minnesota (just next door to North Dakota) have a higher > >> rate > >> of birth defects. Does this mean that we need to issue warnings that we > >> should not conceive for the six months of April-Sept. because of the risk > >> of > >> birth defects? > >> > >> Damage resulting from GMOs is not hypothetical. One of the other longest > >> standing organic farmers in North Dakota is now asking if he will be able > >> to > >> continue farming and gardening, not because of the economic crisis but > >> because > >> the chemical damage on his farm and garden is so serious. He raises all > >> the > >> food for the 3 generations of family on his farm. He raises seed for > >> garden > >> supply companies. And he raises small grains. > >> > >> Unfortunately, if we want organic farming to continue, we will need to > >> intervene ... and soon. > >> > >> Carolyn Raffensperger > >> Kirschenmann Family Farms. > >> > >> > >> ______________________________________________________________________ To > >> unsubscribe, write to seqenv-unsubscribe@listbot.com MSN Messenger > Service > >> lets you stay in touch instantly with your family & friends - Visit > >> http://messenger.msn.com > > Hi List folks. Data on the net continues to corroborate cross pollination of grains by GMO stocks. It simply means that "natural grain" crops will predictably disappear. At the same time, these crops, previously untested, are proving to cause health problems and birth defects not previously seen. To my mind this has got to be stopped. If anyone else out there has a good suggestion for joining forces with some like minded folks, please speak up now. Thanks. And does anyone have an idea how BD could be used to make these grain crops more naturally resistant to cross pollinization by GM crops? Or any other solution, on this plane or others? Regards :o) David /whirlderv@ap.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 9 16:54:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11124 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:54:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA10910; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:47:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10758 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:45:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.177] ("port 2068"@[148.233.78.177]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHT00I0U70N5N@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:17:16 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 14:25:25 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: OFF. Malaria treatment ? In-reply-to: <000601bef941$6dd1a980$8d9dafc7@333> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1738 Thanks to all of you who provided advice on malaria. Fortunately it was not needed since the diagnosis came back negative, it just turned out to be a bad case of typhoid fever courtesy of Salmonella T and extremely poor water conditions in the region. Many thanks and warm greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 9 18:25:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12907 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:25:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17428; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17034 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jps.net (209-142-55-45.stk.jps.net [209.142.55.45]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA07806 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37D7C724.9BDFDA25@jps.net> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 14:41:40 +0000 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: BD Milo - a source for food grade whole grain References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1739 Biodynamic Bakery in Northern California, looking for Organic - preferably Biodynamic - source for milo for making bread. (Yes it can be done.) I would prefer a source in Kansas, but anyone interested please respond. The Bakery curently buys all its other grains from a Biodynamic Farm in North Dakota - and pays a voluntary premium above the Organic Wholesale price. Thanks for any help you can give. -- Richard Roth rfarm 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 Ph:(530) 895-1672 . From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 9 20:18:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15831 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:18:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23871; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:12:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA23696 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:09:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-052.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.152]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA31987 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:26:10 +1200 Message-ID: <000a01befb21$5aa974a0$98f631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: Fw: effects of gmo's on organic farming Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:13:12 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1740 I have a couple of public meetings to talk to here in NZ over the next two weeks re GE. I try to keep up to date and one step ahead of the NZ Dairy Board and Federated Farmers who also tend to be invited together or singly to present the "other side"......(it is becoming a routine parade of cat and mouse!) Therefore I am interested in your comments below Most specifically this here: >At the same time, these crops, previously untested, are proving to cause health >problems and birth defects not previously seen. Can you provide source info and details? NZ is moving into election mode as well and we are deeply involved in the Green campaign in this electorate and we have a good candidate but this is not his field so I am continually briefing him. Any info much appreciated. Gareth Bodle Whangarei NZ >To my mind this has got to be stopped. If anyone else out there has a good >suggestion for joining forces with some like minded folks, please speak up now. >Thanks. > >And does anyone have an idea how BD could be used to make these grain crops more >naturally resistant to cross pollinization by GM crops? Or any other solution, >on this plane or others? > >Regards :o) >David /whirlderv@ap.net > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 9 20:32:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15994 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA24531; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA24467 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.32] (pm3mbr1-166-32.intrepid.net [209.190.166.32]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA08814 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:30:12 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37D7C724.9BDFDA25@jps.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:34:58 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: BD Milo - a source for food grade whole grain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1741 No help on Milo, however, I am looking for a european quality miller on the east cost. Anyone know of one? Thanks --allan Balliett =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 9 22:53:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18535 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA04213; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:46:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mci-a.mp.campus.mci.net (mci-a.mp.campus.mci.net [208.155.143.250]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03985 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:41:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lhoward.clemson (s01-pm05.clemson.campuscwix.net [204.189.110.150]) by mci-a.mp.campus.mci.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA14061; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 19:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990910024404.006834fc@clemson.campus.mci.net> X-Sender: lhoward@clemson.campus.mci.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 22:44:04 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lance or Dana Howard Subject: Re: SE BD Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1742 At 05:54 PM 9/7/99 -0400, Allan Balliett wrote:. > >Hopefully you won't tie your ability to share with mine and get your >thoughts and experiences up here before they fade away. OK, here is my highly personal, incomplete, and, inevitably, to some, offensive account: We limped in in our wheel bearing rattling 84 Subaru at about 11 Friday morning. In time to catch the end of Greg Willis' session on horn clay. Fortunately, hard copies were available. I was initially surprised at Greg's mild manner and soft spokenness, as I'd imagined from his internet persona a much more radical presence. Physical appearances aside, the overall message of the conference was one of unapologetic revolution. Horn clay trumpeted out of the cosmic pipe was to project BD into the new millenium! And I was (and am) convinced. It was a quiet revolution, however. A much smaller group than last year, which was smaller than the year before (I am told). Where were you. Allan? Where was Jim Jenson with all those crystal clear starry, planetty nights? Hugh Courtney had opted to attend Jeff Poppens'(who was present) this year, he told me, and Dick Baird (my neighbor and conference regular) stayed home so that his interns could attend - but they didn't come either. Children were especially in short supply - only 3 until Saturday eve (then 1 more), and two of them mine! The food has been mentioned, but recognition should go to Paul Buck who came up from Hilton Head (UK native) who emerged as conference chef (but obediently followed Hugh's meal plans and some recipes - I think). Although I detected some grumbling about too much red meat, the UAI-grown fare undoubtedly raised our consciousnesses. I can testify to having left in a far better mood than when I arrived. Back to the content. Well, the modest attendance (roughly 50 in my estimate) allowed for an intimacy not normally available at such conferences. Since it was rarely necessary to wait in line to consult anyone, one could pretty much get whatever one asked of anyone. I chose to seize a fair amount of attention from Harvey Lisle, whose original challenge of the BDA recommended biennial recommendation/restriction on prep spraying, Hugh Lovel credited as the inspiration for more recent innovations of sequential spraying, cosmic pipe, and horn clay. Harvey gave a presentation on "Spiritual farming" in which he reported on his recent work with nature spirits via dowsing. In consultation he was never short on the most esoteric or the most mundane. Darek Trowbridge accompanied Greg from CA and gave a slide illustrated talk on his restoration of an abused vineyard in 3 years with BD techniques. His success was also a testimony for horn clay, as Hugh mentioned that when he visited the vineyard he noticed that after walking only a few rows away from the highway he sensed that he was in a completely separate place (no fumes, no noise). Such is the reputed effect of the new prep (as I understood it) - to effectively seal off the farm organism, and to spread out the benefits of the other preps within. Greg returned Saturday to introduce his renegade American Biodynamic Association, passing out newsletters and circulating a sign-up mailing list. He promises - at first - a quarterly publication that will cover the developments of the NEW biodynamics. The ABA will also offer an alternative to the Demeter certification system. For details see the ABA website which is linkable from the BDNow page. Greg and Darek also demonstrated an ingenious stirring device that they use in their vineyards - a tripod mounted wooden rod suspended over an oak barrel. Unfortunately, I missed this (tugged away by my younger one) but Hugh remarked afterward that the stirring created something like a double vortex (perhaps Hugh will elaborate some day, and share his remarkable story about his acquisition of a Sosei water processor that allowed for soap-free dishwashing). Jeff Poppen led the (traditional?) reading of the Ag lectures in two sessions. It was Ch. 2, chosen to highlight the conference emphasis on clay. Among the more notable digressions, Lee McWhorter (representing JPI, and himself) informed us that recent NASA discoveries indicate that BD is possible on Mars (where will you be in Y3K?). Lee videotaped most, if not all, of the sessions in case anyone wants to see what real(?)ly happened. He and Bob Lehman set up and manned the JPI book table. In the end I felt very privileged to have attended. I returned to my sadly wilted drought-sticken property with refreshed enthusiasm and resolve. We came home with new addresses, recipes, health-care connections (for my diabetes), and Bob Grimes from Ann Arbor diagnosed and blessed my car problem and assured me that the "car spirits" would roll us home safely (they did). Once again, apoplogies for misspelled names, left out anecdotes and emphases and people, and any unintended insults. Now I remember my question for Wendell Berry. Why doesn't he ever mention biodynamics? He's always raising the Amish as exemplary, but I'm not aware of him writing anything about BD. Respectfully submitted Lance Lance & Dana Howard Loose Stone Farm Central, South Carolina 29630 864/639-0822 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 9 23:47:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19237 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA06863; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA06681 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:36:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (CVA06-06.swva.net [206.99.244.243]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA10691 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:24:14 -0400 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:24:14 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990909235942.259759b2@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: A BD Definition for the Layman Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1743 Dear Friends, I'm not particularly fond of definitions, but there is virtue in trying to concentrate our thinking and focus on the essential. So far we have: 1) "BD agriculture is an advanced organic farming system that works with the forces of nature providing increased soil and plant health and quality." 2) "A proven successful system of agriculture which views the farm as an integrated living organism and uses combinations of naturally occuring substances to restore vitality and health to the soil, livestock and farmer." 3) "BD farming utilises the forces of nature to address soil and plant health. The forces of nature include the moon, stars and weather. This method of farming was developed XXXX years ago, by XXXXXXXXX." Please note that all these definitions attempt to describe what biodynamics _is_. I suggest, however, that it would be more "dynamic," and perhaps also more truthful, to describe what biodynamics _strives_ for. If so, our two basic questions are: _what_ does biodynamics strive for, and _how_ does it strive to achieve this? To say that biodynamics "views the farm as an integrated living organism" introduces a significant concept, but I believe it is actually misleading to express it in this way. Most farms, even most "biodynamic" farms are not "integrated living organisms," no matter how one tries to view them. What would be more accurate to say, is that biodynamics "views the _ideal_ farm as an integrated living organism." In other words, this is an ideal _towards_ which a BD farmer strives. But what does this mean, and why does biodynamics strive for this? Or put another way, how does this ideal of a farm organism relate to the more understandable ideals of increasing "soil and plant health and quality," or of restoring "vitality and health to the soil, livestock and farmer"? It is not hard to believe that a healthy farm will produce high quality produce, but why is a healthy farm necessarily a _living organism_? Or conversely, why can't a factory farm ever be a healthy farm? Well, what is "health"? Is health simply the absence of disease? Is an undiseased organism raised in a sterile environment more healthy than an organism that becomes diseased but is able to recover? Not at all; what we mean by health is precisely the _ability_ to withstand challenges. And this ability is present as a _potential_ even when a healthy organism is not being challenged. Health, in other words, is not a momentary condition, but is rather the presence of a future potential--the potential to restore or sustain the organism's wholeness. And this turns out also to be what we call "life" or "vitality." A healthy farm, therefore, must necessarily be a living organism. It must have the inherent potential to restore or sustain its own wholeness, to heal itself. This is the true ideal of "sustainable agriculture." A factory farm, on the other hand, cannot sustain or heal itself, it must always be repaired from outside, and therefore it can never be healthy. The other basic question is _how_ does a BD farmer create this living organism? Here the candidate definitions above are downright vague: "works with or utilises the forces of nature," "uses combinations of naturally occuring substances." Even if we presume that what is being alluded to here are the biodynamic preparations, the question is still: _how_ are these substances or forces used? One can insert the BD preps into a manure pile and make wonderful compost, but if the compost is not used on the farm where the manure was generated, then one is _not_ directly enhancing a farm organism's life or health. Why not? Because the life or health of a farm organism is something _inherent_ to that farm and cannot be imported. How then does one enhance it directly? Precisely through _recursive_ processes; for example, by using the compost on the _same_ farm on which it was generated. What directly enhances the life or health of a farm is the _circulation_ of the substances and forces within the farm. Imports may be necessary as remedies for a sick farm, but remedies cannot directly convey health or life; they can at best only stimulate an organism's own powers of wholeness. Exportation and importation are linear processes; what allows life and health to evolve of their own accord are recursive, circular, cyclical processes: self-reinforcing feedback loops. (A healthy farm will also, of course, have surpluses that can be exported.) These cyclical processes have not only a spatial aspect but also, of course, a temporal aspect. And this brings up the other major way in which a BD farmer creates a living farm organism, namely, by _timing_ critical points in the cycles of farm life (planting, harvesting, breeding, manuring, etc.) so that they may be reinforced by the rhythms of the cosmos, so that they may resonate with and be integrated into these archetypal rhythms. The cosmos is indeed the ultimate source of every farm organism's life-forces because it is the ultimate self-sustaining organism--the super-organism within which all other organisms are but organs or cells. In my opinion, this cultivation of the circulation within the farm and observance of the cosmic rhythms actually constitute the primary _method_ of biodynamics. In this sense, biodynamic agriculture simply represents the renewal of traditional methods of agriculture. What was instinctive wisdom in earlier times has been lost and can now be recovered only through conscious, scientific investigation of the world's spiritual underpinnings. This is what Rudolf Steiner pioneered, but it should be realized that such investigation is still only in its beginnings and that particularly in regard to the detailed significance of the cosmic rhythms we are still largely in the dark.) In order to enhance the efficiency of the earthly cycles and the strength of the resonance with the cosmos, biodynamics also uses various secondary methods, perhaps better called techniques. The most prominent of these, of course, are the unique BD preparations. Ashing for weed and pest control is another, less well-developed BD technique. These techniques, however, cannot replace the proper guidance and timing of the processes on a farm. Of themselves they can affect individual organisms on a farm, but they cannot transform the farm itself into a living organism. I will leave it to Dan to formulate the foregoing in 25 words or less. Actually, I suggest that he distinguish between the ideal, the method, and the techniques of biodynamics and allow himself at least 3 x 25 words! Best regards, Malcolm Gardner Woolwine, Virginia mgardner@swva.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 10 02:00:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA20408 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 02:00:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA13080; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 01:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12889 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 01:48:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-21.Arch-03.ap.net [207.44.219.214]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA11863 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37D89AB5.28E74FB4@ap.net> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 22:44:22 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Fw: effects of gmo's on organic farming References: <000a01befb21$5aa974a0$98f631ca@computer> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------CD46EFEE5861142CD8B1EC42" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1744 --------------CD46EFEE5861142CD8B1EC42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gareth and Yvonne Bodle wrote: > I have a couple of public meetings to talk to here in NZ over the next two > weeks re GE. > I try to keep up to date and one step ahead of the NZ Dairy Board and > Federated Farmers who also tend to be invited together or singly to present > the "other side"......(it is becoming a routine parade of cat and mouse!) > > Therefore I am interested in your comments below > > Most specifically this here: > > >At the same time, these crops, previously untested, are proving to cause > health > >problems and birth defects not previously seen. > > Can you provide source info and details? > > NZ is moving into election mode as well and we are deeply involved in the > Green campaign in this electorate and we have a good candidate but this is > not his field so I am continually briefing him. > > Any info much appreciated. > > Gareth Bodle > Whangarei NZ > > >To my mind this has got to be stopped. If anyone else out there has a good > >suggestion for joining forces with some like minded folks, please speak up > now. > >Thanks. > > > >And does anyone have an idea how BD could be used to make these grain crops > more > >naturally resistant to cross pollinization by GM crops? Or any other > solution, > >on this plane or others? > > > >Regards :o) > >David /whirlderv@ap.net > > Hi Friends! This topic goes on forever. good resources from the BDNOW list follow: David Robison3 September 99 contains reference to:http://www.bio-integrity.org/ "Cheryl Kemp" 9 September 99 Contains forward of story on effects of gmo's on organic farming GMO [genetically engineered orgs], and GE [genetic Engineering]Websites http://www/safe-food.org [start here/check links esp. "what do scientists say". http://www.rafi.org/links.html http://www.bckweb.com/nerage/hazardous_food.html http://www.bckweb.com/nerage/links.html http://www.monitor.net/-cap.ge.html http://www.greenpeace.org/~geneng [ check press release archive ] http://www.psagef.org/indexgen.htm The references you need are buried in these sites. Sorry for sloppy record keeping. The exact references were extracted from links from the listed sites. Someplace in all this info there is an extensive article from India where many groups are organized against Monsanto. They accuse the company of war/cultural aggression/attempting to destroy the culture by intro of the "terminator" sterile seed program. Good Fortune :o) David I /whirlderv@ap.net --------------CD46EFEE5861142CD8B1EC42 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Gareth and Yvonne Bodle wrote:

I have a couple of  public meetings to talk to here in NZ over the next two
weeks re GE.
I try to keep up to date and one step ahead of the NZ Dairy Board and
Federated Farmers who also tend to be invited together or singly to present
the "other side"......(it is becoming a routine parade of cat and mouse!)

Therefore I am interested in your comments below

Most specifically this here:

>At the same time, these crops, previously untested, are proving to cause
health
>problems and birth defects not previously seen.

Can you provide source info and details?

NZ is moving into election mode as well and we are deeply involved in the
Green campaign in this electorate and we have a good candidate but this is
not his field so I am continually briefing him.

Any info much appreciated.

Gareth Bodle
Whangarei NZ

>To my mind this has got to be stopped.  If anyone else out there has a good
>suggestion for joining forces with some like minded folks, please speak up
now.
>Thanks.
>
>And does anyone have an idea how BD could be used to make these grain crops
more
>naturally resistant to cross pollinization by GM crops?  Or any other
solution,
>on this plane or others?
>
>Regards :o)
>David /whirlderv@ap.net
>

Hi Friends!

This topic goes on forever. good resources from the BDNOW list follow:
David Robison<drobison@teleport.com 7 Sept 99
This is quote from good source RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY
erf@rachael.org.
Rex Harril<brixman@erols.com>3 September 99
contains reference to:http://www.bio-integrity.org/
"Cheryl Kemp" <bio@midcoast.com.au>9 September 99
Contains forward of story on effects of gmo's on organic farming

GMO [genetically engineered orgs], and GE [genetic Engineering]Websites
http://www/safe-food.org  [start here/check links esp. "what do scientists say".
http://www.rafi.org/links.html
http://www.bckweb.com/nerage/hazardous_food.html
http://www.bckweb.com/nerage/links.html
http://www.monitor.net/-cap.ge.html
http://www.greenpeace.org/~geneng  [ check press release archive ]
http://www.psagef.org/indexgen.htm

The references you need are buried in these sites. Sorry for sloppy record keeping.  The exact references were extracted from links from the listed sites.  Someplace in all this info there is an extensive article from India where many groups are organized against Monsanto.
They accuse the company of war/cultural aggression/attempting to destroy the culture by intro of the "terminator" sterile seed program.

Good Fortune :o)

David I /whirlderv@ap.net
 
 
  --------------CD46EFEE5861142CD8B1EC42-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 10 04:14:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA21424 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 04:14:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA17047; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 04:07:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA16970 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 04:04:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from barrylia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EK5YZQKX; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 04:07:16 EDT To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:58:36 -0700 Subject: Fw: a-s: Newsletter for Organic Seeds Message-ID: <19990910.010724.-4081015.7.barrylia@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-36,38,40,42,44 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Barry D Lia Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1745 Of interest: _______________________________________________________________________ Barry Lia \ barrylia@juno.com \ Seattle WA --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "David J. Heaf" <101622.2773@compuserve.com> To: Anthropos-science Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 07:48:45 -0400 Subject: a-s: Newsletter for Organic Seeds Message-ID: <199909090749_MC2-8424-DB5@compuserve.com> Calling biodynamicists on a-s, and anyone else interested... Email "Newsletter on Organic Seeds" Number 1 (08.09.1999) has just come out. To get your regular copy contact: Dr. Eric Wyss Forschungsinstitut für biologischen Landbau Ackerstrasse Postfach CH-5070 Frick Biologist, Head of the BioGene Division Safeguarding GMO-Free Organic Production Tel.: +41 (0)62 865 72 40 (direct line) Fax: +41 (0)62 865 72 73 E-mail: eric.wyss@fibl.ch Visit our Homepages: http://www.biogene.org http://www.fibl.ch http://www.ifoam2000.ch (Forwarded by David Heaf, Wales, UK) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++ Email anthropos-science-request@reading.ac.uk with the word help in the body of the message to get help with leaving, retrieving archive files etc. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 10 07:10:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22412 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 07:10:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA21197; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 07:03:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21128 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 07:01:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.179] (pm3mbr3-166-149.intrepid.net [209.190.166.149]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA20786 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 07:05:51 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19990910024404.006834fc@clemson.campus.mci.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:34:36 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: SE BD Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1746 Thanks very much for writing this report, Lance! I did plan to attend Hugh's conference but managing the CSA at Claymont with just my wife right now (our interns, by an earlier agreement, left to do orchard work in CA on the first of August), organizing the Mid-Atlantic Conference,and some pretty lethal last minute cartrouble for me also, made it pretty nearly impossible to do so. re: Wendell You have to remember that Wendell Berry got his farming sensibilities refined in the 60's and had them further refined in his often overlooked work for Rodale. (Incidentally, he visited Alan Chadwick, who, like it or not, is probably the main reason th are a substantial number of effective biodynamic farms in the US today) at Santa Cruz with Bob Rodale. Chadwick blew them off because they arrived with produce from another farm). There was a strong, as far as I know, undocumented riff between biodynamics and Rodale due to some problems between Pfeiffer and the Rodale family. Couple this with the impression of a 'closed circle' approach to public relations that the BDA has presented so often, and there's a lot of reasons that Wendell would find the Amish easier to work with. Also, don't forget, Wendell is a Southern Christian. Southern Christians, in my experience, have a hard time tolerating people who 'work with the celestials' like you and I do! ;-) Thanks again! -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 10 07:37:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22535 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 07:37:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22016; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 07:28:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21864 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 07:26:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.179] (pm3mbr3-166-149.intrepid.net [209.190.166.149]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA23859 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 07:30:28 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 19:36:11 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Organic Defined Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1747 Thanks to Malcolm for his thought stimulating post on the definition of biodynamics. Just for thoughts sake, I've included a recent definition of Organic agriculture. -Allan from: http://www.ofrf.org/about_ofrf/index.html Organic Defined... Organic agriculture is an ecological production management system that promotes and enhances biodiversity, biological cycles and soil biological activity. It is based on minimal use of off-farm inputs and on management practices that restore, maintain and enhance ecological harmony. 'Organic' is a labeling term that denotes products produced under the authority of the Organic Foods Production Act. The principal guidelines for organic production are to use materials and practices that enhance the ecological balance of natural systems and that integrate the parts of the farming system into an ecological whole. Organic agriculture practices cannot ensure that products are completely free of residues; however, methods are used to minimize pollution from air, soil and water. Organic food handlers, processors and retailers adhere to standards that maintain the integrity of organic agriculture products. The primary goal of organic agriculture is to optimize the health and productivity of interdependent communities of soil life, plants, animals and people. -April 1995, the National Organic Standards Board, Orlando, Florida From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 10 09:46:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24228 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:46:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28414; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:35:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28247 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:33:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (CVA09-15.swva.net [206.99.244.187]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA08085 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:20:56 -0400 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:20:56 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990910095630.305fc4d0@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: BD Milo - a source for food grade whole grain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1748 Try Lindley Mills in Graham, North Carolina (910-376-6190). Malcolm At 08:34 AM 9/9/99 -0400, you wrote: >No help on Milo, however, I am looking for a european quality miller on the >east cost. Anyone know of one? > >Thanks > >--allan Balliett > > > >=========================================================================== > >BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, >dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food >that promotes human development. > >Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference >this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington >Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow > >Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ > > >To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to > >listproc@envirolink.org > >In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): > >subscribe bdnow > >If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com > >a message to listproc@envirolink.org > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 10 12:08:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27233 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:08:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09517; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:02:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09357 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:00:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.29] (pm3mbr1-166-29.intrepid.net [209.190.166.29]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA08742 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:04:20 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990910095630.305fc4d0@swva.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 00:09:35 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: BD Milo - a source for food grade whole grain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1749 >Try Lindley Mills in Graham, North Carolina (910-376-6190). > >Malcolm Thank you. Unfortunately, apparently the quality of this mill has declined in recent years and is the mill my contact is leaving behind. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 10 13:10:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28670 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13005; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:54:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12851 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.01174B5B@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:55:22 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 10 Sep 99 12:55:27 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 10 Sep 99 12:55:23 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:55:16 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: money/ Robinson Crusoe Priority: normal References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1750 Guillerm's plaintive comment: >>I am not saying this from any moral stature, I am just lately >>feeling the need to come to terms with my own demons and with those >>from Wall Street and Dupond. Mighty hard to do, though. >>Nevertheless, I see that the only solution to all our troubles is >>one of unified consciousness development for all. In what other way >>could humans end the power struggles, the abusive behavior of one >>group against another ?. Allan's comment to Guillermo: > >I guess this question is easier for me, dear Guillermo. While I realize > >it's not a perspective that is popular in the New Age, in the Fourth Way > >we accept that not all who appear to be human are able to possess souls > >and that all who possess souls do not necessarily possess the ability to > >transcend the death of their current body. I'm not sure if I'm following this discussion accurately, so let me see. Guillermo, you are saying that you feel an obligation to help Monsonto people understand what it is they are doing and bring them closer to a more spiritual and earth-friendly path? And Allan, you are saying don't waste your time on people who may not be human to begin with? If I understand this correctly, I would like to offer a third perspective. I don't know what it means to be "in the Fourth Way," but when I find myself among people doing bad and evil, I don't necessarily assume they are soul-less or without humanity (though one never knows, that could be the case). I think that we are all at different places along the path to realizing our human and soul potential, and some people are way back at the beginning. Gotta give them a chance to learn things too. Also, you never know when someone might be just caught in a backwater spiritual eddie and upon learning the next lesson sprint way out ahead of us. There are just so many mysteries. Sometimes we may be presented with the opportuntity to act as teacher or guide; I think most times this is not the case. And ya just gotta accept that. Anyway, what I am trying to suggest is that there might be a middle way between despair and the state of being overwhelmed (at the all the spiritual growth YET to be achieved and your role in helping that) and a stand-offish approach which can seem cold and judgemental (as I suspect Guillermo heard Allan). Oh, I have to run. Leaving town. Am WAY behind on opening e-mail and don't have time to check now if this thread was continued in a way that makes my letter unnecessary. If so, forgive me! Hasta luego, Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 10 15:06:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01064 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:06:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23113; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:58:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22992 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:56:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from barrylia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EK65744D; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:57:23 EDT To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:57:23 -0700 Subject: Re: SE BD Conference Message-ID: <19990910.115724.-4095845.0.barrylia@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-8,10,12,14-16,23-26,28-31,35-39,41-43 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Barry D Lia Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1751 On Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:34:36 -0400 Allan Balliett writes: [snip] > >re: Wendell >You have to remember that Wendell Berry got his farming sensibilities >refined in the 60's and had them further refined in his often overlooked >work for Rodale. (Incidentally, he visited Alan Chadwick, who, like it or >not, is probably the main reason th are a substantial number of effective >biodynamic farms in the US today) at Santa Cruz with Bob Rodale. Chadwick >blew them off because they arrived with produce from another farm). An account of this meeting to interview Alan Chadwick, accompanied by Bob Rodale, can be found on pages 42 and 43 of Gene Logsdon's book, "The Contrary Farmer." This account is as told to Logsdon by Rodale. This "other farm" was the one started there in Santa Cruz by Chadwick's own students. Berry and Rodale had visited the farm first and eaten there. Apparently, Chadwick took this as an insult and turned them away. End of interview. [snip] > >Also, don't forget, Wendell is a Southern Christian. Southern Christians, >in my experience, have a hard time tolerating people who 'work with the >celestials' like you and I do! ;-) Incidentally, regarding "tolerating people who 'work with the celestials'," the title of Logsdon's book happens to follow from a poem by Wendell Berry printed in the front of the book, entitled "The Contrariness of the Mad Farmer." This poem includes the lines: / I have planted by the stars in defiance of the experts, / and tilled somewhat by incantation and by singing, Reading the full poem, I trust that Berry is poetically speaking of his own persona here, not that of an Alan Chadwick. _______________________________________________________________________ Barry Lia \ barrylia@juno.com \ Seattle WA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 10 15:51:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01795 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:51:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26765; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:42:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26559 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.44] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.44]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHV00BR31FPJ0@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:11:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:20:04 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: money/ Robinson Crusoe In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1752 > >Anyway, what I am trying to suggest is that there might be a middle >way between despair and the state of being overwhelmed (at the all >the spiritual growth YET to be achieved and your role in helping >that) and a stand-offish approach which can seem cold and judgemental >(as I suspect Guillermo heard Allan). > >Oh, I have to run. Leaving town. Am WAY behind on opening e-mail >and don't have time to check now if this thread was continued in a >way that makes my letter unnecessary. If so, forgive me! > >Hasta luego, >Anita > Hi Anita: I suggest we better wait for your return to start this again. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 10 16:21:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02662 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:21:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28784; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:09:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28514 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:04:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.85] (pm3mbr2-166-85.intrepid.net [209.190.166.85]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24323 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:09:02 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 04:14:25 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: money/ Robinson Crusoe Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1753 >Guillerm's plaintive comment: > >>>I am not saying this from any moral stature, I am just lately >>>feeling the need to come to terms with my own demons and with those >>>from Wall Street and Dupond. Mighty hard to do, though. >>>Nevertheless, I see that the only solution to all our troubles is >>>one of unified consciousness development for all. In what other way >>>could humans end the power struggles, the abusive behavior of one >>>group against another ?. > >Allan's comment to Guillermo: > >> >I guess this question is easier for me, dear Guillermo. While I realize >> >it's not a perspective that is popular in the New Age, in the Fourth Way >> >we accept that not all who appear to be human are able to possess souls >> >and that all who possess souls do not necessarily possess the ability to >> >transcend the death of their current body. > >I'm not sure if I'm following this discussion accurately, so let me >see. Guillermo, you are saying that you feel an obligation to help >Monsonto people understand what it is they are doing and bring them >closer to a more spiritual and earth-friendly path? And Allan, you >are saying don't waste your time on people who may not be human to >begin with? > >If I understand this correctly, I would like to offer a third >perspective. I don't know what it means to be "in the Fourth Way," >but when I find myself among people doing bad and evil, I don't >necessarily assume they are soul-less or without humanity (though one >never knows, that could be the case). I think that we are all at >different places along the path to realizing our human and soul >potential, and some people are way back at the beginning. Gotta give >them a chance to learn things too. Also, you never know when someone >might be just caught in a backwater spiritual eddie and upon learning >the next lesson sprint way out ahead of us. There are just so many >mysteries. Sometimes we may be presented with the opportuntity to >act as teacher or guide; I think most times this is not the case. >And ya just gotta accept that. > >Anyway, what I am trying to suggest is that there might be a middle >way between despair and the state of being overwhelmed (at the all >the spiritual growth YET to be achieved and your role in helping >that) and a stand-offish approach which can seem cold and judgemental >(as I suspect Guillermo heard Allan). > >Oh, I have to run. Leaving town. Am WAY behind on opening e-mail >and don't have time to check now if this thread was continued in a >way that makes my letter unnecessary. If so, forgive me! > I rest my case. -Allan ;-) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 10 16:22:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02678 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:22:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28735; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28509 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.85] (pm3mbr2-166-85.intrepid.net [209.190.166.85]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24295 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:08:57 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990910.115724.-4095845.0.barrylia@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 04:11:52 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: SE BD Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1754 >An account of this meeting to interview Alan Chadwick, accompanied by Bob >Rodale, can be found on pages 42 and 43 of Gene Logsdon's book, "The >Contrary Farmer." This account is as told to Logsdon by Rodale. This >"other farm" was the one started there in Santa Cruz by Chadwick's own >students. Berry and Rodale had visited the farm first and eaten there. >Apparently, Chadwick took this as an insult and turned them away. End of >interview. According to Wendell, very clearly Chadwick was 'playing with them,' feigning theatrical outrage and leaving in a huff, but not before making certain that his garden manager would give them a thorough and knowledgeable tour of the garden. From what Wendell said, I got the impression that Chadwick was insecure in the presence of is horticultural peers. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 10 16:55:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03159 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:55:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA01403; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:44:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01226 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.85] (pm3mbr4-166-196.intrepid.net [209.190.166.196]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA31510; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:46:35 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 04:51:18 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Howard Shapiro to Keynote Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference Oct 1-3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1755 Dear Friends - My good friend, Howard Shapiro of Seeds of Change, has agreed to give the keynote address at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference. Next to Al Kapuler, another founding member of Seeds of Change, Howard Shapiro is the most exciting speaker on Diversity one can listen to. Criticized by many members of 'the movement' for selling his company to the MARS corporation, Howard feels and acts quite triumphant. Seeds of Change has become an international brand and Howard feels that the educational effort that he started with SoC is being carried to a much broader audience now. I called up to ask Howard for some door prizes for the conference (last year he gave garden calendars and gift certificates to some conference attendees) and he insisted that I let him speak. Why? Because, in Howard's words "I've heard that your conference is more fun than any of them to be at and I know that BD people are good people to be with. I really support Biodynamics and I'll be very happy to speak to that group." Good for us, Howard! ;-) Here's a little bio on Howard from the speaker roster for the Natural Products Expo: Howard Yana-Shapiro, Ph.D. Howard Yana-Shapiro, Ph.D., is the vice president of agriculture and purchasing at Seeds of Change, the organic seed and organic food company. Since 1968, he has been involved with systematic sustainable gardening/farming with native, traditional and commercial agriculture groups in the United States, Latin America, Asia and Europe. He is a certified organic farmer, organic processor / seed cleaner and organic orchard keeper in El Guique, New Mexico, on the banks of the Rio Grande. A two time Ford Foundation fellow and Fulbright scholar to Italy, he was affiliated with graduate school education for 16 years. As a graduate faculty member he was awarded a research award from Louisiana State University, where he worked in Kyoto, Japan with Kichizaemon Raku, a 15th generation Raku Master and began a long appreciation for the art of the Japanese garden. He has worked continuously during the past 25 years in Mexico where he is a respected expert on the agriculture of Oaxaca. He is currently working on sustainable agriculture projects with government and non government agencies in Latin America, South America, The India sub-continent and various sites in the former Soviet Union. He is co-author of the forthcoming book from Bantam Dell Doubleday: Gardening for the Future of the Earth. Howard will be speaking at 8PM, Oct 1 at the Charles Town, WV conference. -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 10 19:32:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA05951 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:32:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12416; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:25:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12374 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:25:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.44] ("port 2053"@[148.233.78.107]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHV00IKE76STY@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:16:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:24:19 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Off: funding and resources to promote sustainable agriculture. In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <19990910.115724.-4095845.0.barrylia@juno.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id TAA12375 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1756 Dear BD-Now-ers: In collaboration with an office of the Ministry of Education in Mexico responsible for technical agriculture education in the country. (DGTA.- a system of 400 + schools at high school, BS and MS levels), I am preparing a proposal to design and implement a model system to introduce "sustainable agriculture" as an alternative to conventional methodology in two training facilities located one in Colima and one in Michoacan. I would appreciate your help in locating international funding opportunities and support resources for such a project. The Ministry of education will contribute with some seed money and all necessary technical facilities and infrastructure. External support is needed for designing programs, producing teaching materials and probably for experts salary to assist in training DGTA personnel. Please kindly send your ideas, examples and suggestions to my private address. Many thanks. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 10 22:09:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA07717 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:09:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA19267; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:02:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d07.mx.aol.com (imo-d07.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.39]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19234 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:02:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hIYLeFiv5_ (4416) for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:05:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:05:58 EDT Subject: Re: Fw: effects of gmo's on organic farming To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1757 In a message dated 99-09-09 14:51:35 EDT, you write: << Hi List folks. Data on the net continues to corroborate cross pollination of grains by GMO stocks. It simply means that "natural grain" crops will predictably disappear. At the same time, these crops, previously untested, are proving to cause health problems and birth defects not previously seen. To my mind this has got to be stopped. If anyone else out there has a good suggestion for joining forces with some like minded folks, please speak up now. Thanks. And does anyone have an idea how BD could be used to make these grain crops more naturally resistant to cross pollinization by GM crops? Or any other solution, on this plane or others? Regards :o) David /whirlderv@ap.net >> Yes to first question. Join the new Natural Law Party. It is their entire platform. Mothers for Natural Law have joined them. Call them: 800 332-0000, ext. 118. Ask them for acknowledgement of and support to BD farmers and how one can work together. It is time to get politically active. Find out who is supportive in one's neighborhood. Make sure local politicians have articles such as are printed on this list. Keep bringing them in. I have just, contrary to my usual policy, exhorted (well, perhaps, strongly encouraged) LILIPOH readers to a. join the Natural Law Party b. find and support a BD farmer or gardener near them. We will continue to bring articles on GE, and point people to BDNOW. I should be very grateful for any anecdotes, articles or significant items of news which I can print up in future issues, together with resource lists of friendly organizations. As soon as the current issue is back from the printer (next week) I will send copies to the Natural Law Party and direct their attention to BD from my side. Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 11 07:42:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12450 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 07:42:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA07455; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 07:36:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07392 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 07:34:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.166.154] (pm3mbr4-166-190.intrepid.net [209.190.166.190]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA12124 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 07:38:06 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:43:26 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Howard Shapiro's New Book features BIODYNAMICS Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1758 Howard Shapiro/Seeds of Change's new book "Gardening forthe Future of the Earth, is featured at http://st4.yahoo.com/seedsofchange/ournewbookne.html There's a short slideshow there. I assume it is based on the slideshow he has promised when he keynotes at the Mid-Atlantic BD Conference Oct 1. He says it is a complete knockout! The book features former BDA president Alan York, as well as other essence gardening greats such as Bill Mollison, Fukuoka, John Jeavons, Wes Jackson and the incomparable, Al Kapuler. Unfortunately, the book won't be out until November. -Allan igg@igg.com =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 11 10:55:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14072 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 10:55:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11738; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 10:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11653 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 10:46:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.38] ("port 2049"@[148.233.78.38]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHW00G30JJRTH@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 09:40:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:08:18 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Fw: effects of gmo's on organic farming In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id KAA11654 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1759 >Yes to first question. Join the new Natural Law Party. It is their entire >platform. Mothers for Natural Law have joined them. Call them: 800 332-0000, >ext. 118. Ask them for acknowledgement of and support to BD farmers and how >one can work together. > >It is time to get politically active. Find out who is supportive in one's >neighborhood. Make sure local politicians have articles such as are printed >on this list. Keep bringing them in. > >I have just, contrary to my usual policy, exhorted (well, perhaps, strongly >encouraged) LILIPOH readers to >a. join the Natural Law Party >b. find and support a BD farmer or gardener near them. > >We will continue to bring articles on GE, and point people to BDNOW. I should >be very grateful for any anecdotes, articles or significant items of news >which I can print up in future issues, together with resource lists of >friendly organizations. > >As soon as the current issue is back from the printer (next week) I will send >copies to the Natural Law Party and direct their attention to BD from my side. > >Christine Dear Christine: Is this Natural Law Party related with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and the Transcendental Meditation organization ? I am under the impresion that they are related, and in such case, I would be worry that the GMO issue is not "their entire platform". I do not have anything against the Maharishi or his people, but I do see the need to keep the GMO fight as general and as close to the general public as posible. And feel that a political association exclusively with this specific spiritual-religious group could be counter productive. Thanks for your answer Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 11 12:30:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15088 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 12:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15811; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 12:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15732 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 12:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.38] ("port 2054"@[148.233.78.38]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHW00G4INZWTG@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 11:16:48 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 11:25:00 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Natural Law Party, GMO and Maharishi In-reply-to: <000801befc69$bb8e8dc0$949dafc7@333> To: Michael Roboz Cc: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA15736 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1760 >Dear G., > > As far as I know, the Natural Law Party is not affiliated with Maharishi >people, at least not in Canada, in Ottawa. All those GE posts that I have >forwards from Richard Wolfson are from a branch of the NLP, in Ottawa >rwolfson@concentric.net >(or com) > They might be more affiliated with the Green Party. I don't know about >those "Mothers" that was referred to in the US. > All protest groups that I have experienced tend to supported by The Green >Party of something like it. Those that are not violent, that is. >best regards, M. Dear Michael: Please check http://www.natural-law-party.org/ If it is the same organization we are talking about, it is definitely associated with Maharishi and they are very clear about it. (they do mention, natural law, unified field theory, TM, Yogic flying, the Maharashi effect, etc...) In Canada their central office is: Natural Law Party, 500 Wilbrod Street, Ottawa, Ontario K1N 6N2 (613) 565-85 or fax: (613) 565-1596 and the party leader is: Dr. Neil Paterson Mothers for Natural Law central office has a Fairfield, IA address. Coincidentally Fairfield, IA is a little town that hosts Maharishi International University, coincidentally again the place of work of Dr. John Fagan (Professor of Molecular Biology, Maharishi University of Management). Let be crystal clear about the fact that I am not against or in favor of Maharishi and his organization, my only point here is that the GMO issue is not "their entire platform" as Christine mentioned. Let me also say that I do think they are doing good and worthwhile work in the fight against genetically altered food. My point here is that people signing with The Natural Law Party, IMO should be aware of the whole deal, not just about their standing about GMO's. The Maharishi organization from my perspective is a "good intentions business", it has it's merits, but also it's dark side. Informed decisions are better decisions, or, as it is being said, information supports the "Consumer Right to Know", don't you agree ? Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 11 15:23:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16964 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 15:22:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22716; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 15:15:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22652 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 15:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.38] ("port 2079"@[148.233.78.38]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FHW00LJ6VX66R@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 14:07:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 14:16:09 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Natural Law Party, GMO and Maharishi To: Michael Roboz Cc: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id PAA22654 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1761 >Dear G, > > Interesting! I had not idea of that part of the NLP background. Richard >Wolfson in the last Federal Canadian election was running for the NLP in the >Ottawa area. Needless to say, he was not elected. >Your mention of Dr. John Fagan is interesting. Fagan has been used by the >local Health Action Network people here to lec. on GE, etc. I had no idea >he is involved in the Maharishi thing, not that I have anything against them >per se. > However, I have had experience with the Maharishi group in Oregon back in >the 1980's. Mass international marriages, etc. (similar in a way to the >Moonies), but, the Top Guy was totally corrupt. Abuse of relationships with >women in his camp, several hundred Rolls Royces, etc. He was eventually >chased out of the US back in 1986 to set up camp first in India and later >some Island in the Pacific, last I heard. It was one big armed camp. I >know people who went to "visit" for various lengths of time. You were >greeted with submachine guns and, of course, their large economic base, it >appears , was trafficking in Marijuana. At that time, BC grown Mar. was not >yet developed to the extent it is now. > I hope this other place it not like that. >thanks for letting me know, >I will still appreciate their information that wolfson sends out. >best regards, Michael Hi Michael: I think you are mixing personalities, the group in Oregon was not related to the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, founder of the Trascendental Meditation movement back in the 60's (The Beetles Guru, remeber that). I do recall the group you are talking about and the stories about RR's, private planes and guns, but in all honesty they are not related. It's leader was also an Indian guru, probably also using the Maharishi title, but not to be confounded with M. Mahesh Yogi. The Maharishi people (I do know them quite well) are in a way benign, "nice guys", but heavily profit oriented and a sect of its own. I would not be surprise to see that the solutions proposed by NLP are the TM, Sidhis TM, Maharishi-Ayurved, Maharishi-Jyotish, Maharishi-Investment funds, etc, etc, etc... and the rest of Maharishi "line of exclusive products". I do think that the info and work of Fagan, Wolfon and M4NL is worthwhile and usefull. But I would be very suspicious of their underlying interests, to me they are not exclusivelly enviromentally related. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 11 16:09:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17403 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 16:09:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24738; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 16:03:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24665 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 16:01:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp319.cy-net.net [208.21.195.128]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA31943 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 15:05:03 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BEFC49.89427A40@FLYLO>; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 11:33:57 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEFC49.89427A40@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: computer toy Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 11:31:13 -0500 Encoding: 12 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1762 I don't know if anyone on list has a reason to use a microscope often, but this little toy is interesting. It's a microscope that hooks to your computer so you can view it over the monitor, save the slide images in your computer, and even manipulate to some extent. Highest mag is only 200x but still at $99 worth it for the potential it can do. Not out till mid Oct, and it's a kid's toy but I think it has some good uses. go here to check it out: http://www.zdnet.com/zdtv/freshgear/products/story/0,3679,2321442,00.html martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 11 19:58:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20533 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 19:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA03122; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 19:49:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp5.jps.net (smtp5.jps.net [209.63.224.55]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03019 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 19:47:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jps.net (209-142-48-14.stk.jps.net [209.142.48.14]) by smtp5.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA08143 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 16:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37DAF075.B3F72C4C@jps.net> Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:14:46 -0700 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BD Milo - a source for food grade whole grain References: <1.5.4.16.19990910095630.305fc4d0@swva.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1763 I am trying to locate a FARMER (S) who grows BD milo who would be interested in selling direct to a bakery. I really appreciate the feedback, but so far all leads have all been referals to middlemen mills. Are there any subscribers/farmers to this list who grow milo and would be interested in this kind of relationship arrangement? Thanks much! -- Richard Roth rfarm 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 Ph:(530) 895-1672 . From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 11 20:36:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20879 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:36:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04629; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04562 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:28:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (cust75.nrvmax2.tor1.netrover.com [205.209.21.75]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA06304 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:32:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-From: villager@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: From: "manfred palmer" To: "bdnow" Subject: Fw: Small Farms [off] Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:33:21 -0400 Message-ID: <01befcb6$6a974ae0$4b15d1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1764 -----Original Message----- >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: 10 Sep 99 09:57:53 >From: Roberto Verzola >To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu >Subject: New Report Lauds Small Farms > >Small Farms More Productive than Large Farms but Threatened by Trade >Agreements > >The Institute for Food and Development Policy/Food First and the >Transnational Institute release a new report: The Multiple Functions >and Benefits of Small Farm Agriculture In the Context of Global Trade >Negotiations > >By Peter Rosset > >full text of the report available at: >http://www.foodfirst.org/pubs/policybs/pb4.html > >September 14, 1999 > >Maastricht, Netherlands -- Small farms are more productive than large >farms, yet their continued existence is threatened by international trade >agreements, according to a major study released today at a United Nations >conference here in Maastricht.* > >The Institute for Food and Development Policy, also known as "Food First," >based in California, USA, and the Transnational Institute, based in The >Netherlands, published the study authored by agricultural development >specialist Dr. Peter Rosset. Challenging the conventional wisdom that small >farms are backward and unproductive, the study shows that small farmers >worldwide produce from 2 to 10 times more per unit area than do larger, >corporate farmers. > >"In fact small farms are 'multi-functional' -- more productive, more >efficient, and contribute more to economic development than do large >farms," said Dr. Rosset, Executive Director of the Institute for Food and >Development Policy and the author of the report. Dr. Rosset is an official >delegate to the Maastricht conference, representing the Global Forum on >Sustainable Food and Nutritional Security, based in Brazil. > >Communities surrounded by populous small farms have healthier economies >than do communities surrounded by depopulated large, mechanized farms, >according the study. Small farmers also take better care of natural >resources, including reducing soil erosion and conserving biodiversity. >Small farmers are better stewards of natural resources, safeguarding the >future sustainability of agricultural production. > >"Despite more than a century of anti-small farmer policies in country after >country, in both industrialized and third world countries," said Dr. >Rosset, "small farmers not only still cling to the soil but continue to be >more productive and more efficient than large, agri-business farming >operations. Small farmers offer the best way to feed the world, and the >only way to effectively conserve soil resources for future generations." > >Unfortunately the study shows that today the world's small farmers face >unprecedented threats to their livelihoods, thanks to free trade agreements >negotiated in recent years. "Free trade causes the prices farmers receive >to drop through the floor", said Rosset," driving them into bankruptcy by >the millions." Such low prices mean only the largest can survive, >according to the study. > >The World Trade Organization (WTO) Agreement on Agriculture (AOA), to be >negotiated in Seattle, USA, in November, 1999, is the weapon that could >deal the final death blow to the world's small farmers, according to >Rosset. "The U.S. Government negotiators," said Rosset, himself an >American, "have as their goal for Seattle the complete liberalization of >trade in farm products." > >Rosset, and the institutes that published his report, are issuing a call to >recognize the true, multiple value of small farms, and to defeat the >American government plans for the AOA. "Small farmers are a key resource >for our very survival into the future," said Mr. Erik Heijmans, of the >Transnational Institute, which co- published the study. "We must oppose >trade agreements which place them in jeopardy." > >* "Cultivating Our Futures," the FAO/Netherlands Conference on the >Multifunctional Character of Agriculture and Land, 12-17 September 1999, >Maastricht, The Netherlands. Information at: http://www.fao.org/mfcal > > # # # > >Food First/The Institute for Food and Development Policy >398 60th Street >Oakland, California 94618 USA >tel: 510/654-4400 fax: 510/654-4551 >foodfirst@foodfirst.org > > >Transnational Institute >Paulus Potterstraat 20 >1071 DA, Amsterdam >The Netherlands >Tel: 31-20-6626608 >Fax: 31-20-6757176 >tni@tni.org > > > >Global Forum on Sustainable Food and Nutritional Security >SGAN 905 Conjunto "B", Parte "A" 70.790-050 >Brasilia, DF Brazil >Tel: +55 61 347 4914 >Fax: +55 61 347 9002 >agora@tba.com.br > > >Anuradha Mittal >Policy Director >Institute for Food and Development Policy - Food First >398 60th Street, Oakland, CA 94618 USA >Phone: (510) 654-4400 Fax: (510) 654-4551 >http://www.foodfirst.org > > >-- > > ******************************* >Jeffrey Newman >http://www2.bcinternet.net/~newman/Jeffrey.htm >ICQ: 9879310 > >When you're swimmin' in the creek > And an eel bites your cheek > That's a moray! > -- Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 12 07:49:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA27577 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 07:49:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA23165; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 07:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA22970 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 07:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.161] (pm3shep4-163-161.intrepid.net [209.190.163.161]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA00673 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 07:31:07 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 19:36:03 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: InnerPeace.Org Web Site Open Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1765 Yes! It's finally happening. The new web site for InnerPeace.Org is now open with the beta version of InnerPeace self-help software program. InnerPeace is "Forever Free" so you can make copies and pass it along to your friends and loved ones. Visit InnerPeace: http://www.InnerPeace.Org ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 12 21:14:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org ([208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12126 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26942; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA18616 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:09:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.24] (pm3shep1-163-24.intrepid.net [209.190.163.24]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA10477 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:13:34 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 06:19:28 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Foliar Feeding Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1766 When spraying foliar feeds and/or herbal tonics, I've always done it around daybreak. I see from USDA recommendations that, physically, it's as appropriate to spray after 6pm at night (w/ temperatures under 70) as it is a 6am in the morning. How's your experience with this? Anyone advocate evening feeding/spraying? Thanks -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 13 01:58:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org ([208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA15015 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 01:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA12163; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 01:51:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12011 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 01:47:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-26.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.27]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA24971 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37DC8EF8.3BD509E8@ap.net> Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:43:20 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Foliar Feeding References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1767 Allan Balliett wrote: > When spraying foliar feeds and/or herbal tonics, I've always done it around > daybreak. I see from USDA recommendations that, physically, it's as > appropriate to spray after 6pm at night (w/ temperatures under 70) as it is > a 6am in the morning. > > How's your experience with this? Anyone advocate evening feeding/spraying? > > Thanks > > -Allan > igg@igg.com Hi Allen! I've been experimenting with Sonic Bloom the past few months along with reading as much as I can about the inventor and the product. He recommends , if possible, to always spray in the early morning as first choice of time. If not possible 4pm is the next recommendation. So far, the process has proved to have great lattitude with vegetables as to time of application.. The inventor, Dan Carlson, has extensive experience[ 20 years ] with foliar feeding. You can reach him at Carlson Scientific, Blaine, Minnesota. During my few contacts with him, he has been very helpful. Reagards :o), David i/whirlderv@ap.net. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 13 03:41:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA15874 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 03:41:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA17044; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 03:32:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA16981 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 03:30:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d143.infoserve.net [199.175.157.143]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA24600 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002101befdbb$32dfec00$8f9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: foliar feeding Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:22:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEFD7E.194C73E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1768 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEFD7E.194C73E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allan, Any of the horticulturist folks that I have taked to seem to agree = that foliar feeding in the morning is best. Plants take up "nutrients" = and nutrients most effectively at this time. Michael ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEFD7E.194C73E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 Allan,
 
  Any of the = horticulturist folks=20 that I have taked to seem to agree that foliar feeding in the morning is = best.  Plants take up "nutrients" and nutrients most = effectively=20 at this time. Michael
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEFD7E.194C73E0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 13 06:53:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA16823 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:53:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA21420; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:45:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA21313 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:43:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.24] (pm3shep4-163-178.intrepid.net [209.190.163.178]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA01353 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:47:55 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002101befdbb$32dfec00$8f9dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:53:26 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: foliar feeding Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1769 > Allan, Any of the horticulturist folks that I have taked to seem >to agree that foliar feeding in the morning is best.  Plants take up >"nutrients" and nutrients most effectively at this time. Michael Thanks, Michael. Thinking of the plant cycles now, that only makes sense! Thanks again -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 13 06:53:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA16832 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:53:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA21383; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA21308 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.24] (pm3shep4-163-178.intrepid.net [209.190.163.178]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA01339 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:47:50 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37DC8EF8.3BD509E8@ap.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:49:24 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Foliar Feeding Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1770 >Allan Balliett wrote: > >> When spraying foliar feeds and/or herbal tonics, I've always done it around >> daybreak. I see from USDA recommendations that, physically, it's as >> appropriate to spray after 6pm at night (w/ temperatures under 70) as it is >> a 6am in the morning. >> >> How's your experience with this? Anyone advocate evening feeding/spraying? >> >> Thanks >> >> -Allan >> igg@igg.com > >Hi Allen! > >I've been experimenting with Sonic Bloom the past few months along with >reading >as much as I can about the inventor and the product. He recommends , if >possible, to always spray in the early morning as first choice of time. >If not >possible 4pm is the next recommendation. >So far, the process has proved to have great lattitude with vegetables as to >time of application.. The inventor, Dan Carlson, has extensive >experience[ 20 >years ] with foliar feeding. You can reach him at Carlson Scientific, Blaine, >Minnesota. During my few contacts with him, he has been very helpful. > >Reagards :o), >David i/whirlderv@ap.net. Thanks, David. Dan Carlson is a scheduled speaker at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference October 1-3 http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf Unfortunately, until Dan explains otherwise, I can't overlook that his product contains 'proprietary ingredients,' making it inappropriate for use in an organically certified garden. It also contains disproportionate amounts of giberillic acid (sp), which essentially is bovine growth hormone for plants - FORCING growth, which is not exactly what we want in a garden for health situation. HOWEVER, i'm very much hoping that Dan will sooth my mind about these things when he is here. That's why I asked him to come. Thanks for the reply! -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 13 06:59:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA16850 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA21681; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:52:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA21557 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:49:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.24] (pm3shep4-163-178.intrepid.net [209.190.163.178]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA01919 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:53:59 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:59:50 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Jeff Poppen's TN Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1771 Did anyone make it to Jeff's conference? If so, how was it, and what did Hugh Courtney and Hugh Lovel talk about? (Incidentally, my kids have taken to asking me if 'Courtney Lovel' was going to tour this year, or if her band had permanently broken up.) Later -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 13 13:05:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22754 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:05:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18140; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17760 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:55:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-03.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.36]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15873 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37DD2BA0.2AB7BA6F@ap.net> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:51:44 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Foliar Feeding References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1772 Allan Balliett wrote: > >Allan Balliett wrote: > > > >> When spraying foliar feeds and/or herbal tonics, I've always done it around > >> daybreak. I see from USDA recommendations that, physically, it's as > >> appropriate to spray after 6pm at night (w/ temperatures under 70) as it is > >> a 6am in the morning. > >> > >> How's your experience with this? Anyone advocate evening feeding/spraying? > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >> -Allan > >> igg@igg.com > > > >Hi Allen! > > > >I've been experimenting with Sonic Bloom the past few months along with > >reading > >as much as I can about the inventor and the product. He recommends , if > >possible, to always spray in the early morning as first choice of time. > >If not > >possible 4pm is the next recommendation. > >So far, the process has proved to have great lattitude with vegetables as to > >time of application.. The inventor, Dan Carlson, has extensive > >experience[ 20 > >years ] with foliar feeding. You can reach him at Carlson Scientific, Blaine, > >Minnesota. During my few contacts with him, he has been very helpful. > > > >Reagards :o), > >David i/whirlderv@ap.net. > > Thanks, David. > > Dan Carlson is a scheduled speaker at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming > and Gardening Conference October 1-3 http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf > > Unfortunately, until Dan explains otherwise, I can't overlook that his > product contains 'proprietary ingredients,' making it inappropriate for use > in an organically certified garden. It also contains disproportionate > amounts of giberillic acid (sp), which essentially is bovine growth hormone > for plants - FORCING growth, which is not exactly what we want in a garden > for health situation. > > HOWEVER, i'm very much hoping that Dan will sooth my mind about these > things when he is here. That's why I asked him to come. > > Thanks for the reply! > > -Allan > igg@igg.com Allan: My understanding, from secondary sources, is that the gibberilic acid component of the foliar spray is not purposely concentrated but is a "natural" component of the seaweed from which the solution is derived. As one of my teachers often says 'I wasn't there but this is what they told me." I would also be interested in "proprietary ingredients" since the containers that I have aren't labeled that way. I've just picked the results of my first Sonic Bloom crop and I don't think I can put up the tomatoes fast enough to keep them from spoiling. The control batch starting about 12 feet down the row could not compare for yield, taste, or texture or hardiness, despite the fact they were exposed to the frequencies for a while. The best tomatoes I ever ate. On the forcing issue, I have shared the product with a good friend who is one of the farmers who tends five acres of an organic herb farm near the coast. She is extraordinarily sensitive to plants, and had her own herb school when she was just 25. All reports so far are on the order of " it really feels good to be around the treated plants". It would be interesting to see what results some of our "radionic" bretheren might get evaluating treated vs. untreated specimens. I look forward to your comments about Dan's presentation. :o) Best Regards, David I./whirlderv@ap.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 13 13:24:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23183 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:24:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19563; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19371 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:14:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.24] (pm3shep2-163-92.intrepid.net [209.190.163.92]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA09226 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:18:10 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37DD2BA0.2AB7BA6F@ap.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 01:23:48 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Foliar Feeding Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1773 >Allan Balliett wrote: > >> >Allan Balliett wrote: >> > >> >> When spraying foliar feeds and/or herbal tonics, I've always done it >>around >> >> daybreak. I see from USDA recommendations that, physically, it's as >> >> appropriate to spray after 6pm at night (w/ temperatures under 70) as >>it is >> >> a 6am in the morning. >> >> >> >> How's your experience with this? Anyone advocate evening >>feeding/spraying? >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> -Allan >> >> igg@igg.com >> > >> >Hi Allen! >> > >> >I've been experimenting with Sonic Bloom the past few months along with >> >reading >> >as much as I can about the inventor and the product. He recommends , if >> >possible, to always spray in the early morning as first choice of time. >> >If not >> >possible 4pm is the next recommendation. >> >So far, the process has proved to have great lattitude with vegetables >>as to >> >time of application.. The inventor, Dan Carlson, has extensive >> >experience[ 20 >> >years ] with foliar feeding. You can reach him at Carlson Scientific, >>Blaine, >> >Minnesota. During my few contacts with him, he has been very helpful. >> > >> >Reagards :o), >> >David i/whirlderv@ap.net. >> >> Thanks, David. >> >> Dan Carlson is a scheduled speaker at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming >> and Gardening Conference October 1-3 http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf >> >> Unfortunately, until Dan explains otherwise, I can't overlook that his >> product contains 'proprietary ingredients,' making it inappropriate for use >> in an organically certified garden. It also contains disproportionate >> amounts of giberillic acid (sp), which essentially is bovine growth hormone >> for plants - FORCING growth, which is not exactly what we want in a garden >> for health situation. >> >> HOWEVER, i'm very much hoping that Dan will sooth my mind about these >> things when he is here. That's why I asked him to come. >> >> Thanks for the reply! >> >> -Allan >> igg@igg.com > >Allan: > >My understanding, from secondary sources, is that the gibberilic acid >component of >the foliar spray is not purposely concentrated but is a "natural" >component of the >seaweed from which the solution is derived. As one of my teachers often >says 'I >wasn't there but this is what they told me." I would also be interested in >"proprietary ingredients" since the containers that I have aren't labeled >that >way. > >I've just picked the results of my first Sonic Bloom crop and I don't >think I can >put up the tomatoes fast enough to keep them from spoiling. The control batch >starting about 12 feet down the row could not compare for yield, taste, or >texture >or hardiness, despite the fact they were exposed to the frequencies for a >while. >The best tomatoes I ever ate. > >On the forcing issue, I have shared the product with a good friend who is >one of >the farmers who tends five acres of an organic herb farm near the coast. >She is >extraordinarily sensitive to plants, and had her own herb school when she >was just >25. All reports so far are on the order of " it really feels good to be >around the >treated plants". It would be interesting to see what results some of our >"radionic" bretheren might get evaluating treated vs. untreated specimens. > >I look forward to your comments about Dan's presentation. >:o) >Best Regards, >David I./whirlderv@ap.net My understanding, and I believe the source for this has been posted here before, is that the gib. acid is boosted at least 5 times normal. It definitely is, since the reason Sonic Bloom can reference SoC guru Al Kapuler as a user is that Al finds a soak of Sonic Bloom to be a tremendous aid in starting old seeds. Why? Because of the pumped up gib. acid (not that it isn't avail. from other sources, but Al gets Sonic free from Dan, so that is what he uses.) a well known germ. booster. Success stories, like yours with the tomatoes, can usually be traced back to an imbalance or deficiency in the garden soils. The sage advice of 'feed the soil, don't feed the plant' is still the watchword here in BD Land. I believe it was Poldlinsky who stated in ACRES about a year back that the only plants worth eating are those that access their nutrients directly with their FEEDER ROOTS, not with their water roots nor with their stomata. Aside from, that, sure, I know exactly what you're talking about. ;-) -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 13 18:04:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01043 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:04:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14066; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 17:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13979 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 17:55:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.137] (pm3shep3-163-137.intrepid.net [209.190.163.137]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04761 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 17:59:48 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:03:25 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Produce Price Index Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1774 FYI, a story on National Public Radio this morning news announced the Western Growers' Association website (link below.) It shows the spread between the "farmgate" price and the retail price for various fruits and vegetables in three American cities (including L.A.) For example, in L.A. carrots are marked up 490% by retailers. (In Atlanta and New York, they're marked up by 640%.) http://www.WGA.com/farmgate/ ***************** Karen Harris, MPH Coalition Coordinator CORE Program Tel. 916-445-2544; Fax: 916-324-7764 ****************** From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 14 01:53:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA08372 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 01:53:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA15005; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 01:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA14910 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 01:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-13.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.46]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA12780 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37DDDF59.ACB358D6@ap.net> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:38:33 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Foliar Feeding References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1775 Allan Balliett wrote: > >Allan Balliett wrote: > > > >> >Allan Balliett wrote: > >> > > >> >> When spraying foliar feeds and/or herbal tonics, I've always done it > >>around > >> >> daybreak. I see from USDA recommendations that, physically, it's as > >> >> appropriate to spray after 6pm at night (w/ temperatures under 70) as > >>it is > >> >> a 6am in the morning. > >> >> > >> >> How's your experience with this? Anyone advocate evening > >>feeding/spraying? > >> >> > >> >> Thanks > >> >> > >> >> -Allan > >> >> igg@igg.com > >> > > >> >Hi Allen! > >> > > >> >I've been experimenting with Sonic Bloom the past few months along with > >> >reading > >> >as much as I can about the inventor and the product. He recommends , if > >> >possible, to always spray in the early morning as first choice of time. > >> >If not > >> >possible 4pm is the next recommendation. > >> >So far, the process has proved to have great lattitude with vegetables > >>as to > >> >time of application.. The inventor, Dan Carlson, has extensive > >> >experience[ 20 > >> >years ] with foliar feeding. You can reach him at Carlson Scientific, > >>Blaine, > >> >Minnesota. During my few contacts with him, he has been very helpful. > >> > > >> >Reagards :o), > >> >David i/whirlderv@ap.net. > >> > >> Thanks, David. > >> > >> Dan Carlson is a scheduled speaker at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming > >> and Gardening Conference October 1-3 http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf > >> > >> Unfortunately, until Dan explains otherwise, I can't overlook that his > >> product contains 'proprietary ingredients,' making it inappropriate for use > >> in an organically certified garden. It also contains disproportionate > >> amounts of giberillic acid (sp), which essentially is bovine growth hormone > >> for plants - FORCING growth, which is not exactly what we want in a garden > >> for health situation. > >> > >> HOWEVER, i'm very much hoping that Dan will sooth my mind about these > >> things when he is here. That's why I asked him to come. > >> > >> Thanks for the reply! > >> > >> -Allan > >> igg@igg.com > > > >Allan: > > > >My understanding, from secondary sources, is that the gibberilic acid > >component of > >the foliar spray is not purposely concentrated but is a "natural" > >component of the > >seaweed from which the solution is derived. As one of my teachers often > >says 'I > >wasn't there but this is what they told me." I would also be interested in > >"proprietary ingredients" since the containers that I have aren't labeled > >that > >way. > > > >I've just picked the results of my first Sonic Bloom crop and I don't > >think I can > >put up the tomatoes fast enough to keep them from spoiling. The control batch > >starting about 12 feet down the row could not compare for yield, taste, or > >texture > >or hardiness, despite the fact they were exposed to the frequencies for a > >while. > >The best tomatoes I ever ate. > > > >On the forcing issue, I have shared the product with a good friend who is > >one of > >the farmers who tends five acres of an organic herb farm near the coast. > >She is > >extraordinarily sensitive to plants, and had her own herb school when she > >was just > >25. All reports so far are on the order of " it really feels good to be > >around the > >treated plants". It would be interesting to see what results some of our > >"radionic" bretheren might get evaluating treated vs. untreated specimens. > > > >I look forward to your comments about Dan's presentation. > >:o) > >Best Regards, > >David I./whirlderv@ap.net > > My understanding, and I believe the source for this has been posted here > before, is that the gib. acid is boosted at least 5 times normal. It > definitely is, since the reason Sonic Bloom can reference SoC guru Al > Kapuler as a user is that Al finds a soak of Sonic Bloom to be a tremendous > aid in starting old seeds. Why? Because of the pumped up gib. acid (not > that it isn't avail. from other sources, but Al gets Sonic free from Dan, > so that is what he uses.) a well known germ. booster. > > Success stories, like yours with the tomatoes, can usually be traced back > to an imbalance or deficiency in the garden soils. The sage advice of 'feed > the soil, don't feed the plant' is still the watchword here in BD Land. I > believe it was Poldlinsky who stated in ACRES about a year back that the > only plants worth eating are those that access their nutrients directly > with their FEEDER ROOTS, not with their water roots nor with their stomata. > > Aside from, that, sure, I know exactly what you're talking about. ;-) > > -Allan Allan: extending my teachers thoughts a little , you weren't there at all, you didn't like the story and made one up that made your BD heritage comfortable. It doesn't mean that your opinion holds any water in regard to this specific situation.And Poldlinsky is welcome to eat whatever floats his boat. The soil was tested, both plantings were amended and mulched identically, grown organically and the Sonic Bloom plantings were judged superior in all respects by the folks who ate them including three experienced organic gardeners including a commercial grower.Sorry to burst your bubble. But whose counting. And as I recall, a large Japanese organization of organic farmers bestowed some gold medal certification on Carlson in the early 90's for the sonic bloom process. Whatever, it does, it makes growing good veggies easy as long as the basics are followed and my personal health has never been better. I will think again before I am foolish enough to believe my contributed personal experience could possibly be helpful since BD knows it all. Even Herr Steiner didn't believe that! Auf Weidersehen. D. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 14 06:35:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA10627 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 06:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA24190; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 06:26:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA24066 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 06:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.59] (pm3shep2-163-109.intrepid.net [209.190.163.109]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA17893 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 06:28:09 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37DDDF59.ACB358D6@ap.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:33:25 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Foliar Feeding Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1776 >Allan: extending my teachers thoughts a little , you weren't there at >all, you >didn't like the story and made one up that made your BD heritage >comfortable. It >doesn't mean that your opinion holds any water in regard to this specific >situation.And Poldlinsky is welcome to eat whatever floats his boat. The >soil was >tested, both plantings were amended and mulched identically, grown >organically and >the Sonic Bloom plantings were judged superior in all respects by the >folks who ate >them including three experienced organic gardeners including a commercial >grower.Sorry to burst your bubble. But whose counting. And as I recall, a >large >Japanese organization of organic farmers bestowed some gold medal >certification on >Carlson in the early 90's for the sonic bloom process. Whatever, it does, >it makes >growing good veggies easy as long as the basics are followed and my >personal health >has never been better. I will think again before I am foolish enough to >believe my >contributed personal experience could possibly be helpful since BD knows >it all. >Even Herr Steiner didn't believe that! >Auf Weidersehen. >D. Boy, you're starting to sound just like Dan himself! :-) Just one more question, David: How do you deal with the $100 a gallon price tag for Sonic Bloom foliar spray concentrate ? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 14 06:47:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA10701 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 06:47:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA25132; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 06:40:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA25093 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 06:40:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.59] (pm3shep2-163-109.intrepid.net [209.190.163.109]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA19368 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 06:44:20 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37DDDF59.ACB358D6@ap.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:50:05 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Foliar Feeding Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1777 David Isaacs said in exasperation: >I will think again before I am foolish enough to believe my contributed >>personal experience could possibly be helpful since BD knows it all. >Even Herr Steiner didn't believe that! Dear David - I don't think any of us who work daily with biodynamics think that we know it all. Asking questions - - no matter how clumslily! - - of your reportis not to degrade your experience but to attempt to pull a 'model' out of it so that I might understand it better. (To be honest with you, however, your testimonial for Sonic Bloom sounds very similar to my landlord's testimonial for MiracleGro. :-) Of course, I haven't closed the door on Sonic Bloom or Dan Carlson. That's exactly why he has been invited to present at the BD Conference October 1-3. I have a deep hope that Dan himself can clear up some of the darker questions about his product..like what's in it! :-) It would be so great if it not only worked but also if I had a very logical reason to believe I can use it on food-for-health with a clear conscience. Thanks! -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 14 07:07:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA10817 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:07:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA25703; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 06:58:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA25609 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 06:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha08s028.d.shentel.net [204.111.55.28]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA23199 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:07:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37DE2AC9.EE092877@LightExpression.com> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:00:25 -0400 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Foliar Feeding References: <37DDDF59.ACB358D6@ap.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1778 Dear David, Allan and All......... We are recent subscribers to bdnow list and would like to offer what is an obvious 2 cents here to this thread.. We have long been organic gardeners including the Devic Kingdom in the design and soil building process of the gardens and farming here at our home in Virginia. We were a little stubborn for a number of years with a good friend of ours who was strongly encouraging us to work with BD. You see, "we knew it all". And we really have had some very strong validating experiences working with Nature to back that up. Well, we finally bowed to the pressure about 3 years ago and started using BD preps on our gardens and fields. Since working with Bd, we have made some of the most wonderful compost and have seen tremendous support to the plants which we have grown. Earth worm activity as well has been unbelievable and insect damage practically nil. We have also learned that there are "other dimensions" to the vibrational quality of the growing process through our work with Nature. So, for us, we always include the consciousness of Nature when we design and grow gardens. When we offered the BD preps to Nature as an item to consider in the growing process, it was a big "YES". We are happy to have "gotten out of our own way". We have learned of the Sonic Bloom activation and we are eager to learn more about it and see how it fits into our protocol for growing the best high vibrational and nutritional foods possible. Humanity is in transition and we should learn perhaps to be a little more open to the "bigger picture". I am looking forward to Dan Carlson's presentation at the BD Conference at Claymont in a couple of weeks to see how we can further stretch ourselves. Looking to the future *~~* In light, Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 14 08:02:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11230 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:02:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA27729; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:53:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA27573 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:50:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-100.s37.as1.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.100]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id HAA15235 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:54:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37DE386F.6635477E@erols.com> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:58:39 -0400 From: Rex Harrill X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Foliar Feeding References: <37DD2BA0.2AB7BA6F@ap.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1779 David Isaacs wrote: > > I've just picked the results of my first Sonic Bloom crop and I don't think I can > put up the tomatoes fast enough to keep them from spoiling. The control batch > starting about 12 feet down the row could not compare for yield, taste, or texture > or hardiness, despite the fact they were exposed to the frequencies for a while. > The best tomatoes I ever ate. "Spoiling" in what way? Rot and mold are classic signs of poor quality. The very best produce will dehydrate, but it won't rot. In brix terms, the 3-4 brix duds at the supermarket may last a week whereas home-grown, say 8-9 brix, are good for several weeks. On the other hand, tales abound of 14+ brix gems grown under superior conditions lasting 3 or more months on the shelf. Dan Carlson's sales literature and videos boast of the incredible sugar content of Sonic Bloom produce. You may want to send him a fruit so he can analyze what is wrong. BTW, Allan (on this thread): a man in Florida once told me that there were two reasons to consider daybreak foliar feeding as the least desirable time. 1) the stomata are starting to close. 2) most sprays tend to form little droplets of water (because of surface tension) and the droplets act as magnifying glasses, which creates tiny burning lesions on the leaves. That last made a convert of me, but I've never seen another reference. Regards, Rex Harrill From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 14 09:46:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12880 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04230; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04053 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:38:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.199] (pm3shep4-163-199.intrepid.net [209.190.163.199]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14018 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:42:27 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37DE386F.6635477E@erols.com> References: <37DD2BA0.2AB7BA6F@ap.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 21:41:18 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Foliar Feeding Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1780 >BTW, Allan (on this thread): a man in Florida once told me that there were >two reasons >to consider daybreak foliar feeding as the least desirable time. 1) the >stomata are >starting to close. 2) most sprays tend to form little droplets of water >(because of >surface tension) and the droplets act as magnifying glasses, which creates >tiny burning >lesions on the leaves. > >That last made a convert of me, but I've never seen another reference. > >Regards, >Rex Harrill Thanks, Rex. Physiologically, the stomata are still open after sunrise until 70F or 11am are reached. (Dan doesn't even claim to change this by using the 'bird box') We had a British volunteer here at Claymont who was about as wonderful to work with in the garden as Chadwick must have been. Her father, an even more fastitdious gardener, used to make the kids rake the lawn every morning, lest the dew burn it... I think using an organic sticker spreader or surfacant will get us by this 'burning bead' effect Have you taken any brix readings of the Sonic Bloom stuff, Rex? Thanks for your input! -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 14 10:34:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13635 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:34:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08384; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08261; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:26:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.199] (pm3shep4-163-199.intrepid.net [209.190.163.199]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23285; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:28:27 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:28:25 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Joel Salatin at Claymont October 1-3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1781 August 14, 1999 Joel Salatin, Family Farming Innovator October 1-3 Claymont Court, Charles Town,WV http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf/ CONTACT: Allan Balliett (304) 724-6763 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE One of Americas most dynamic and innovative farmers will address the Fourth Annual Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference October 1-3 at Claymont Court in Charles Town, West Virginia. Promoting food production that is environmentally, emotionally and economically enhancing for both producer and consumer, Joel Salatin is a third generation organic farmer. His presentations about the familys 550-acre Shenandoah Valley farm continually receive standing ovations. He has authored three books, You Can Farm, Pastured Poultry Profits and Salad Bar Beef. His columns appear in Stockman Grass Farmer and Quit You Like Men magazines. A word craftsman and sought after conference speaker, Salatin describes his diverse farm enterprises with ear-catching phrases, salad bar beef, pastured poultry, pigaerator pork, pastured rabbits. And what he calls relationship marketing to 400 cheerleaders gives him full retail dollars for everything the farm produces. He addresses a wide range of issues, from creating the farm your children will want to making a white collar salary from a pleasant life in the country. Although his message is a decidedly positive one, it draws clear distinctions between food produced in inhumane, factory farms and food produced in pasture-based, animal friendly farms. His presentations carry several themes: Let animals do the work, value adding through marketing, diversity and multiple-use, organic matter, fully utilizing resources before buying anything. Woven throughout his talk has a strong consumer thrust: If you want an agriculture that does not pump animals full of drugs and hormones, pollute the water, erode the soil and stink up the air, vote with your pocketbook and quit patronizing the conventional food industry seek out and support your local alternative farmer. Each year the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference attracts educators, natural farmers, and those interested in securing the quality of their life, from all parts of globe to beautiful Claymont Court (a 350+ acres organic estate once owned by George Washington) to hear presentations by national speakers on topics as diverse as natural gardening, child behavior, soil life, dowsing and rain making. http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf. Contact: Allan Balliett (304) 724-6763 csa@claymont.org =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Sep 14 10:37:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13672 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:37:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08545; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:29:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08261; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:26:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.199] (pm3shep4-163-199.intrepid.net [209.190.163.199]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23285; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:28:27 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:28:25 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Joel Salatin at Claymont October 1-3 Reply-To: igg@igg.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1782 August 14, 1999 Joel Salatin, Family Farming Innovator October 1-3 Claymont Court, Charles Town,WV http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf/ CONTACT: Allan Balliett (304) 724-6763 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE One of Americas most dynamic and innovative farmers will address the Fourth Annual Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference October 1-3 at Claymont Court in Charles Town, West Virginia. Promoting food production that is environmentally, emotionally and economically enhancing for both producer and consumer, Joel Salatin is a third generation organic farmer. His presentations about the familys 550-acre Shenandoah Valley farm continually receive standing ovations. He has authored three books, You Can Farm, Pastured Poultry Profits and Salad Bar Beef. His columns appear in Stockman Grass Farmer and Quit You Like Men magazines. A word craftsman and sought after conference speaker, Salatin describes his diverse farm enterprises with ear-catching phrases, salad bar beef, pastured poultry, pigaerator pork, pastured rabbits. And what he calls relationship marketing to 400 cheerleaders gives him full retail dollars for everything the farm produces. He addresses a wide range of issues, from creating the farm your children will want to making a white collar salary from a pleasant life in the country. Although his message is a decidedly positive one, it draws clear distinctions between food produced in inhumane, factory farms and food produced in pasture-based, animal friendly farms. His presentations carry several themes: Let animals do the work, value adding through marketing, diversity and multiple-use, organic matter, fully utilizing resources before buying anything. Woven throughout his talk has a strong consumer thrust: If you want an agriculture that does not pump animals full of drugs and hormones, pollute the water, erode the soil and stink up the air, vote with your pocketbook and quit patronizing the conventional food industry seek out and support your local alternative farmer. Each year the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference attracts educators, natural farmers, and those interested in securing the quality of their life, from all parts of globe to beautiful Claymont Court (a 350+ acres organic estate once owned by George Washington) to hear presentations by national speakers on topics as diverse as natural gardening, child behavior, soil life, dowsing and rain making. http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf. Contact: Allan Balliett (304) 724-6763 csa@claymont.org =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 14 10:38:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13680 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08684; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:31:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac20.navix.net (iac20.navix.net [207.91.5.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08358 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:27:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from navix.net (cras45p69.navix.net [206.158.194.199]) by iac20.navix.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA25588 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:08:21 -0500 Message-ID: <37DE5869.A52DC0CE@navix.net> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:15:05 -0500 From: Richard Mazour Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BD Milo - a source for food grade whole grain References: <1.5.4.16.19990910095630.305fc4d0@swva.net> <37DAF075.B3F72C4C@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1783 Hi Richard I am a organic farmer in south central Nebraska . I have growen milo for many years however couldn't find a market so I started growing corn insted . I would be interested in growing milo again if I had a market . It grows well here and I could produce 100 to 10,000 Bu . Let me know your plans. Thanks Rich Richard Roth wrote: > I am trying to locate a FARMER (S) who grows BD milo who would be > interested in selling direct to a bakery. I really appreciate the > feedback, but so far all leads have all been referals to middlemen > mills. > > Are there any subscribers/farmers to this list who grow milo and would > be interested in this kind of relationship arrangement? > > Thanks much! > > -- > Richard Roth > rfarm > 1318 Bruce Street > Chico, CA 95928 > Ph:(530) 895-1672 > . From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 14 11:19:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14699 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:19:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12386; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12100 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-12.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.13]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA03019 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37DE6443.2261DEDC@ap.net> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:05:40 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Foliar Feeding References: <37DD2BA0.2AB7BA6F@ap.net> <37DE386F.6635477E@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1784 Rex Harrill wrote: > David Isaacs wrote: > > > > > I've just picked the results of my first Sonic Bloom crop and I don't think I can > > put up the tomatoes fast enough to keep them from spoiling. The control batch > > starting about 12 feet down the row could not compare for yield, taste, or texture > > or hardiness, despite the fact they were exposed to the frequencies for a while. > > The best tomatoes I ever ate. > > "Spoiling" in what way? Rot and mold are classic signs of poor quality. The very best > produce will dehydrate, but it won't rot. In brix terms, the 3-4 brix duds at the > supermarket may last a week whereas home-grown, say 8-9 brix, are good for several > weeks. On the other hand, tales abound of 14+ brix gems grown under superior > conditions lasting 3 or more months on the shelf. > > Dan Carlson's sales literature and videos boast of the incredible sugar content of > Sonic Bloom produce. You may want to send him a fruit so he can analyze what is wrong. > > BTW, Allan (on this thread): a man in Florida once told me that there were two reasons > to consider daybreak foliar feeding as the least desirable time. 1) the stomata are > starting to close. 2) most sprays tend to form little droplets of water (because of > surface tension) and the droplets act as magnifying glasses, which creates tiny burning > lesions on the leaves. > > That last made a convert of me, but I've never seen another reference. > > Regards, > Rex Harrill Hi Rex! Spoiling means my gardenmate picked them and they were "ripe" at that moment. And to my consumers eyes they continued to soften. Whatever the organic chemical process or what they were "supposed to do". My circumstances being less than optimal [ the garden has to take second place to the mortgage] I processed the ruby jewels as fast as I could. Just an objective note. My experience of the good Mr. Carlson has been uniformly positive. I have, on my own iniative, analysed some of the test data in terms of yield for fields treated by the U.S. Dept of Ag. Even with documented increases in yields of 50 to 100%, all the Ag. folks could say was "We need more data." And they controlled the tests. Skepticism is typical. Yet anectdotal data world wide is abundant. So is controlled test data. No buried horns or rituals though. Just another part of the path. If BD folks choose not to use his product because its not BD, that's our choice not necessarily a fault with the SB process. By the way, I 'm not affiliated with Dan in any way other than being a "satisfied " customer. Thanks for your feedback. Cheers :o) whirlderv@ap.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 14 11:19:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14711 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12430; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12291 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:10:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-100.s37.as1.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.100]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA23918 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37DE675F.3551FE13@erols.com> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:18:55 -0400 From: Rex Harrill X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Foliar Feeding References: <37DD2BA0.2AB7BA6F@ap.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1785 Allan Balliett wrote: > I think using an organic sticker spreader or surfacant will get us by [a lot > of] this > 'burning bead' effect > Absolutely. > > Have you taken any brix readings of the Sonic Bloom stuff, Rex? > I'm waiting to provide independent validation of the brix claims. Perhaps Dan will suggest a nearby SB garden where we can jointly take a few readings. Regards, Rex Harrill From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Sep 14 11:24:29 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14843 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA27182 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:31:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27087 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:31:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02119 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.199] (pm3shep4-163-199.intrepid.net [209.190.163.199]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23285; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:28:27 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:28:25 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Joel Salatin at Claymont October 1-3 Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1786 August 14, 1999 Joel Salatin, Family Farming Innovator October 1-3 Claymont Court, Charles Town,WV http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf/ CONTACT: Allan Balliett (304) 724-6763 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE One of Americas most dynamic and innovative farmers will address the Fourth Annual Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference October 1-3 at Claymont Court in Charles Town, West Virginia. Promoting food production that is environmentally, emotionally and economically enhancing for both producer and consumer, Joel Salatin is a third generation organic farmer. His presentations about the familys 550-acre Shenandoah Valley farm continually receive standing ovations. He has authored three books, You Can Farm, Pastured Poultry Profits and Salad Bar Beef. His columns appear in Stockman Grass Farmer and Quit You Like Men magazines. A word craftsman and sought after conference speaker, Salatin describes his diverse farm enterprises with ear-catching phrases, salad bar beef, pastured poultry, pigaerator pork, pastured rabbits. And what he calls relationship marketing to 400 cheerleaders gives him full retail dollars for everything the farm produces. He addresses a wide range of issues, from creating the farm your children will want to making a white collar salary from a pleasant life in the country. Although his message is a decidedly positive one, it draws clear distinctions between food produced in inhumane, factory farms and food produced in pasture-based, animal friendly farms. His presentations carry several themes: Let animals do the work, value adding through marketing, diversity and multiple-use, organic matter, fully utilizing resources before buying anything. Woven throughout his talk has a strong consumer thrust: If you want an agriculture that does not pump animals full of drugs and hormones, pollute the water, erode the soil and stink up the air, vote with your pocketbook and quit patronizing the conventional food industry seek out and support your local alternative farmer. Each year the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference attracts educators, natural farmers, and those interested in securing the quality of their life, from all parts of globe to beautiful Claymont Court (a 350+ acres organic estate once owned by George Washington) to hear presentations by national speakers on topics as diverse as natural gardening, child behavior, soil life, dowsing and rain making. http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf. Contact: Allan Balliett (304) 724-6763 csa@claymont.org =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 14 13:04:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17148 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:04:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18538; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17890 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:08:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.25] (pm3shep1-163-25.intrepid.net [209.190.163.25]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12134 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:12:36 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:18:36 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: re:Joel Salatin at Claymont October 1-3 -Reply Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1787 Allan, you may repost this one if you care to. Well you set me off, I had never noticed you using the terms "natural farming" or "natural farmer" before. I have used them in the past myself but have come to the realization that they are truly meaningless. There is purely and simply nothing natural about agriculture. Natural food production in human terms was hunting and gathering. Humankind invented the synthetic construct called agriculture approximately ten thousand years ago during the Neolithic epoch. During that age humankind began to settle first semi-permanently then permanently on a piece of land(and in a village). The invention was marked by the synthetic activity of domestication and breeding of both animal and plant food organisms. I believe that before the marketers got hold of organic (and began to define it as pure food, safe food or safer food) it might have been simply defined as an agriculture that was based in soil culture and attempted to harmonize an agricultural activity with its natural surroundings using natural systems as a pattern. Bio-Dynamics likewise might be defined as an agriculture that is based in soil culture and attempts to harmonize an agricultural entity with its natural surroundings and the cosmic forces. I do not think that this is nit-picking it is vital that we understand what we are working with. Getting out there on Saturday 10/2 as we had hoped is very dubious at this time. I have to be at Purdue the three previous days at an international stored commodities protection work shop. I know that you will have a great time, we hope to get there next year. Best, Ted (Ted Rogers is a Biologist and Policy Specialist with the USDA-Office of Pest Management Policy) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 14 15:10:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19865 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02648; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:02:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00704 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:43:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.189] (pm3shep4-163-189.intrepid.net [209.190.163.189]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10992 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:47:29 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37DE675F.3551FE13@erols.com> References: <37DD2BA0.2AB7BA6F@ap.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 02:53:01 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Foliar Feeding Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1788 >Allan Balliett wrote: > >> I think using an organic sticker spreader or surfacant will get us by [a lot >> of] this >> 'burning bead' effect >> > >Absolutely. > >> >> Have you taken any brix readings of the Sonic Bloom stuff, Rex? >> > >I'm waiting to provide independent validation of the brix claims. Perhaps Dan >will suggest a nearby SB garden where we can jointly take a few readings. > >Regards, >Rex Harrill I guess you know whereof you speak...Peter Tompkins, who may be at the conference,and his gardener, Tyler, who will be the conference use Sonic Bloom..and the BD preps. Just a hop down the road, Rex. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 14 23:58:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA00572 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA12493; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:50:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mci-a.mp.campus.mci.net (mci-a.mp.campus.mci.net [208.155.143.250]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA12395 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:48:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lhoward.clemson (s06-pm03.clemson.campuscwix.net [204.189.110.83]) by mci-a.mp.campus.mci.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA10385; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990915035049.006a9178@clemson.campus.mci.net> X-Sender: lhoward@clemson.campus.mci.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:50:49 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, bdnow@envirolink.org From: Lance or Dana Howard Subject: Re: Jeff Poppen's TN Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1789 At 06:59 PM 9/12/99 -0400, Allan Balliett wrote: >Did anyone make it to Jeff's conference? Jeff's conference is this coming weekend. I would go but for a conflicting committment. Lance Lance & Dana Howard Loose Stone Farm Central, South Carolina 29630 864/639-0822 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 15 01:40:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA01545 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:40:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA17235; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:27:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA17123 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:23:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.109.34]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990915051306.UPFH3442178.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:13:06 +1200 Message-ID: <37DF2A7A.34CB@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:11:22 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Mars Pluto conjunction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1790 Here is a map of where the Mars Pluto conjunction is Astrologically strong at the moment of its conjunction. I hope this address is easy for you to access http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/garudas click on "my folder" and click on MArs Pluto conjunction let me know if you have problems cheers Glen Atkinson From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 15 11:58:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09057 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:58:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15580; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:50:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15297 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:47:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from micron - 208.250.183.12 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 08:50:57 -0700 Message-ID: <001a01beff92$ed6240e0$0cb7fad0@micron> From: "Wells" To: References: <37DD2BA0.2AB7BA6F@ap.net> Subject: Re: Foliar Feeding Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 08:56:50 -0700 Organization: Microsoft Corporation X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1791 ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 11:53 PM Subject: Re: Foliar Feeding > >Allan Balliett wrote: > > > >> I think using an organic sticker spreader or surfacant will get us by [a lot > >> of] this > >> 'burning bead' effect > >> > > > >Absolutely. > > > >> > >> Have you taken any brix readings of the Sonic Bloom stuff, Rex? > >> > > > >I'm waiting to provide independent validation of the brix claims. Perhaps Dan > >will suggest a nearby SB garden where we can jointly take a few readings. > > > >Regards, > >Rex Harrill > > I guess you know whereof you speak...Peter Tompkins, who may be at the > conference,and his gardener, Tyler, who will be the conference use Sonic > Bloom..and the BD preps. Just a hop down the road, Rex. -Allan What is sonic bloom? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 15 17:31:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15989 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:31:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13586; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:24:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13400 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:22:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-00.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.33]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA01485 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37E00904.BD7D8F90@ap.net> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:00:52 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Foliar Feeding References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1B2F6EB3B3B1F22DDD06350E" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1792 --------------1B2F6EB3B3B1F22DDD06350E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allan Balliett wrote: > >Allan: extending my teachers thoughts a little , you weren't there at > >all, you > >didn't like the story and made one up that made your BD heritage > >comfortable. It > >doesn't mean that your opinion holds any water in regard to this specific > >situation.And Poldlinsky is welcome to eat whatever floats his boat. The > >soil was > >tested, both plantings were amended and mulched identically, grown > >organically and > >the Sonic Bloom plantings were judged superior in all respects by the > >folks who ate > >them including three experienced organic gardeners including a commercial > >grower.Sorry to burst your bubble. But whose counting. And as I recall, a > >large > >Japanese organization of organic farmers bestowed some gold medal > >certification on > >Carlson in the early 90's for the sonic bloom process. Whatever, it does, > >it makes > >growing good veggies easy as long as the basics are followed and my > >personal health > >has never been better. I will think again before I am foolish enough to > >believe my > >contributed personal experience could possibly be helpful since BD knows > >it all. > >Even Herr Steiner didn't believe that! > >Auf Weidersehen. > >D. > > Boy, you're starting to sound just like Dan himself! :-) > > Just one more question, David: How do you deal with the $100 a gallon price > tag for Sonic Bloom foliar spray concentrate ? The foliar spray is concentrated at the level of 256 to 1, the gallon makes up 256 gallons of application solution. Applied to vegetables, the protocol calls for application of just twice weekly once the plants are "established". Fruit trees [ next years experiment ] call for just 5 applications per season. According to the apple growers in the latest video, the costs disappear into the profits of the increased yield . At your quoted price, the per gallon of prepared solution cost is marginally less than 40 cents. Cost will vary according to the established application protocol but is actually quite modest. The prepared solution, if my memory serves, is good for about 20 acres per gallon of mist. That's how I deal with cost - multiplication and division. :o) P.S. : maybe you can convince Dan he needs some hired help. [smiles] --------------1B2F6EB3B3B1F22DDD06350E Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Allan Balliett wrote:

>Allan:  extending my teachers thoughts a little , you weren't there at
>all, you
>didn't like the story and made one up that made your BD heritage
>comfortable.   It
>doesn't mean that your opinion holds any water in regard to this specific
>situation.And Poldlinsky is welcome to eat whatever floats his boat.  The
>soil was
>tested, both plantings were amended and mulched identically, grown
>organically and
>the Sonic Bloom plantings were judged superior in all respects by the
>folks who ate
>them including three experienced organic gardeners including a commercial
>grower.Sorry to burst your bubble. But whose counting.  And as I recall, a
>large
>Japanese organization of organic farmers bestowed some gold medal
>certification on
>Carlson in the early 90's for the sonic bloom process.  Whatever, it does,
>it makes
>growing good veggies easy as long as the basics are followed and my
>personal health
>has never been better.  I will think again before I am foolish enough to
>believe my
>contributed personal experience could possibly be helpful since BD knows
>it all.
>Even Herr Steiner didn't believe that!
>Auf Weidersehen.
>D.

Boy, you're starting to sound just like Dan himself! :-)

Just one more question, David: How do you deal with the $100 a gallon price
tag for Sonic Bloom foliar spray concentrate ?

The foliar spray is concentrated at the level of 256 to 1, the gallon makes up 256 gallons of application solution.  Applied to vegetables, the protocol calls for application of just twice weekly once the plants are "established".  Fruit trees [ next years experiment ] call for just 5 applications per season.  According to the apple growers in the latest  video, the costs disappear into the profits of the increased yield .  At your quoted price, the per gallon of prepared solution cost is marginally less than 40 cents.  Cost will vary according to the established application protocol but is actually quite modest.  The prepared solution, if my memory serves, is good for about 20 acres per gallon of mist.  That's how I deal with cost - multiplication and division. :o)  P.S. : maybe you can convince Dan he needs some hired help.  [smiles]
  --------------1B2F6EB3B3B1F22DDD06350E-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 16 13:18:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04046 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:18:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17958; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:08:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17638 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.011E07BC@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:09:09 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 16 Sep 99 13:09:12 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 16 Sep 99 13:08:42 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:08:38 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: bizzy bizzy bizzy Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1793 > From: Fscjamie@aol.com > Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:38:20 EDT > Subject: Re: bizzy bizzy bizzy > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Reply-to: bdnow@envirolink.org > Dear Anita, > I noticed that you were planning a trip to the Dominican Republic. Very > interesting! I just returned from there doing some work with the rice > farmers; and I'm interested in your intended work. > Let me know. > > Regards, > Jamie Fisher Ooops! I must have sent my post to the whole list serve when I only meant it to go to Michael Roboz. Oh well, I appologize in general for that, though I see at least one person was interested in something I wrote! Jamie, I'll respond to you personally. Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 17 08:46:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20722 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 08:46:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAB26674; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 08:39:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26508 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 08:36:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.167] (pm3shep3-163-132.intrepid.net [209.190.163.132]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA12625 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 08:40:53 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 20:46:58 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Agnihotra with Victor Landa Oct 2 at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference, Charles Town, WV Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1794 Victor Landa, founder and manager of Spritual Foods, a service project of Shanti Yoga, and probably the man who has done the most to get BD foods on the tables of America, will be conducting Agnihotra at 7:10 am on October 2 at Claymont Court, Charles Town, WV. (Richard Powers will be conducting Agnihotra on the morning of Oct 3.) On that same day, Victor will give a two hour presentation to conference attendees on Spiritual Food for the New Millenium. (Other events conference events will be occuring at the same time, most notably, a pasture walk with Joel Salatin.) Conference info is at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf Thanks -Allan Balliett From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 17 09:46:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21937 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29889; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:37:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA29707 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:35:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp16.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.116]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA16346 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 08:35:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <003801bf0111$ed5b03e0$744b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: "BD NOW LIST" Subject: Eclipses/Pendulums Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 08:38:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1795 Special to ABCNEWS.com Full story: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DyeHard/dyethisweek.html Puzzle of the Pendulum - Could Eclipses Sway Earth? The swing of a Foucault pendulumshouldn't change during an eclipse. But there are some tantilizing hints otherwise. (Smithsonian) A mystery that has stumped scientists for half a century may have moved one step closer to being solved during August's total eclipse. It will be months, maybe years, before all the data are analyzed and scientists can decide whether Maurice Allais was right when he concluded that an eclipse alters the path of a pendulum. If true, the news would upend our understanding of gravity. Allais, who won the Nobel Prize in economics in 1988 and has been a respected researcher in physics, claimed to have detected a slight shift in the motion of a Foucault pendulum during a total solar eclipse in 1954. A Foucault pendulum is a weight that swings at the end of a wire as gravity pulls it back and forth in a long arc. The swing of the pendulum remains nearly constant as the Earth rotates below it, creating the optical illusion of a change in the direction of the swing. Many museums have displays in which the pendulum knocks over small figures as Earth rotates below the swinging weight. But if Allais was right, a solar eclipse shifts the direction of the pendulum's swing and nobody knows why. "If, in fact, pendulums go crazy during eclipses it suggests we don't really have an understanding of gravity and the intersection of different bodies," says physicist Ron Koczor of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala. "There's nothing we can conceive of within standard theory that would make a pendulum change its swing during an eclipse." Other scientists who have tried to replicate Allais' work the ensuing decades have had mixed results. The Aug. 11 eclipse gave scientists an ideal opportunity to test Allais' conclusions because the eclipse passed directly over scores of Foucault pendulums in Europe. NASA physicist David Noever, an expert on gravity, and Koczor organized a global study during the eclipse, and most of the data finally have trickled in. There's a lot, at least 100 gigabytes, and will require plenty of analysis. But there are some tantalizing leads. The data consist largely of videotapes of five pendulums both inside and outside the path of the total eclipse. In the Path Here's the intriguing part. Nobody outside the path reported seeing anything unusual when viewing the tapes. But researchers at two sites in Europe - in the direct path of the eclipse - say that when they looked at their tapes, they saw a change in the pendulum's direction. "We haven't looked at their videos in detail yet, and we're not going to reach any conclusions just by eyeballing them,"says Koczor, who's trying to organize the mountains of data. A supersensitive gravitometer at the Huntsville lab that can detect the incredibly subtle change in gravity caused by a truck passing nearby detected nothing, Koczor says. Neither did the lab's pendulum. So if the Europeans are right, the effect takes place only in the path of the eclipse. That's a real mystery. Koczor is still waiting for another bit of fascinating data. Some scientists used a different pendulum, called a torsion pendulum, which consists of a weight suspended at the end of a twisted wire that causes the weight to swing in a circle. Some researchers in Europe reported seeing some "strange changes" in one torsion pendulum, Koczor says. "But we haven't got their data yet," he adds. It's all tantalizing, but the preliminary results are very tentative. Let's Go to the Videotape The only way to find out, Koczor says, is to take the six-plus hours of videotapes that have been shipped to his office, digitize them then analyze them one frame at a time. And since the cameras record 30 frames every second, that's a lot of analyzing. The sites used two cameras, one at ground level, recording the direction of the pendulum as it moved back and forth toward the camera, and another overhead. Tapes were shot before, during and after the eclipse. The data will allow scientists to determine any changes in the period of the pendulum (the time it takes for one complete swing) and any changes in the direction it swings. Because the Earth rotates below the pendulum, the swing normally changes about 10 degrees per hour of a 360-degree circle. According to Allais, the pendulum he observed changed the angle of its rotation by 13.5 degrees during the eclipse. "That's basically the effect we're looking for," Koczor says. "If the pendulum moves 10 degrees an hour when there's no eclipse, and then all of a sudden it starts moving 20 degrees per hour during the eclipse, and then goes back to 10 degrees per hour," then something very strange takes place during an eclipse. Scientific Skepticism Many scientists have trouble taking Allais' claims seriously because, quite frankly, none of it makes much sense. There's a near total eclipse once a month when Earth, the moon and the sun are nearly aligned at the time of a new moon, so a similar effect should be present then. "If something is happening to gravity once a month, wouldn't we have noticed by now?" Noever asks. That suggests that, in the end, scientists will come up with some explanation for the results, such as equipment flaws or changes in temperature or some local problem. If they can't, and the so-called Allais effect is real, they'll try to explain why. That may prove far more difficult than running a bunch of experiments during a solar eclipse. "It's easy if we see nothing," Koczor says. But if there's something there, "it's a different ball game." From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 17 18:43:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07122 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 18:43:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09921; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 18:36:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09830 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 18:34:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip013.computer.net [140.186.252.13]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA28908 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 18:39:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 18:37:28 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: September 12, 1999 - September 18, 1999 Message-ID: <60E456BB043E86CC852567EF007C432E.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1796 Calendar of the Soul [September 12, 1999 - September 18, 1999] Twenty-fourth Week (September 15-21) Unceasingly itself creating Soul life becomes aware of self; The cosmic spirit, striving on, Renews itself by self-cognition, And from the darkness of the soul Creates the fruit of self-engendered will. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Sich selbst erschaffend stets, Wird Seelensein sich selbst gewahr; Der Weltengeist, er strebet fort In Selbsterkenntnis neu belebt Und schafft aus Seelenfinsternis Des Selbstsinns Willensfrucht. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+24 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 17 19:52:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08049 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:52:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12781; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:45:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d01.mx.aol.com (imo-d01.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.33]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12657 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:42:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Snarzlak@aol.com Received: from Snarzlak@aol.com by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hPBF0N40IK (4183) for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:46:43 EDT Subject: Re: COTS: September 12, 1999 - September 18, 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1797 Is this list for environmental issues, or mystic poetry? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 17 20:50:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08675 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 20:50:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15881; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 20:43:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15789 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 20:42:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (ctca145.vthokies.net [206.153.172.145]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA12034 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:45:38 -0400 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:45:38 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990917210636.25b7fc92@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: COTS: September 12, 1999 - September 18, 1999 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1798 At 07:46 PM 9/17/99 EDT, you wrote: >Is this list for environmental issues, or mystic poetry? Do you think these things are incompatible? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 17 20:55:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08720 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 20:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA16038; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 20:47:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15949 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 20:45:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.125] (pm3shep3-163-149.intrepid.net [209.190.163.149]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA27702 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 20:50:16 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 08:55:52 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: COTS: September 12, 1999 - September 18, 1999 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1799 >Is this list for environmental issues, or mystic poetry? Dear Patrick - This list is for people who are not interested in finding a distinction between 'mystic poetry' and enviornmental issues, people who are instinctively working with the earth under sun and stars. People who like to sit in armchairs, stewing over eco-literature written by panderers for pay and who find their fulfillment clucking in public places about 'setting the rivers free,' may not find much compfort in this list. I'm sorry, it's my fault if you didn't receive a BD Now! overview and guidelines when you subscribed. I'll try to get that out to everyone soon. Sincerely -Allan Balliett moderator BD Now! "From spade and fork to fork and spoon" From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 17 21:41:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA09203 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 21:41:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18554; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 21:34:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18319 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 21:31:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts3-3.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.203.67]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA12975 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 18:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002d01bf0176$1b6473c0$43cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: Subject: Re: COTS: September 12, 1999 - September 18, 1999 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 18:35:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1800 > >Is this list for environmental issues, or mystic poetry? Dear BDNOW Subscriber: [usually we append at least a first name to our positings] Jane Sherry has been kind enough for months now to remind us, through her posting of Rudolf Steiner's weekly verses, that we as farmers and gardeners work not only the Planet's sensitive surface layer, the soil, but our souls as well. COTS, you may not know, is "Calendar of the Soul." Thank you for your question, framed unfortunately as either/or. The answer is: BOTH and more besides. Environmental issues, mystic poetry, informed and uninformed opinion, heartfelt observations, humor [not enough], and--your posting fits here--provocative questions. Woody Wodraska Aurora Biodynamic Farm British Columbia From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 17 22:22:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA10723 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:22:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA20235; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:14:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rmx01.mail.com (rmx01.mail.com [165.251.48.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20148 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web11.mail.com (web11.pub01.mail.com [165.251.32.21]) by rmx01.mail.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA26308 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <383831832.937621074244.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:17:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: COTS: September 12, 1999 - September 18, 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.161.18.167 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1801 Dear Allan, If this means there would be poetry at the Mid-Atlantic BD Conference, then methinks I need to sprout wings, and fast! But the land is wide, and I cannot walk over, And neither have I wings to fly, alas. How can there possibly be a distinction between poetry and gardening? Don't they both come from the same impulse of the heart? Pam ------Original Message------ From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sent: September 17, 1999 12:55:52 PM GMT Subject: Re: COTS: September 12, 1999 - September 18, 1999 >Is this list for environmental issues, or mystic poetry? Dear Patrick - This list is for people who are not interested in finding a distinction between 'mystic poetry' and enviornmental issues, people who are instinctively working with the earth under sun and stars. People who like to sit in armchairs, stewing over eco-literature written by panderers for pay and who find their fulfillment clucking in public places about 'setting the rivers free,' may not find much compfort in this list. ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 18 03:09:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA14196 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 03:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA05782; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 03:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA26445 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 00:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-25.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.26]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA20447 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 21:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37E30FF2.165A852C@ap.net> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 21:07:14 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: COTS: September 12, 1999 - September 18, 1999 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1802 Snarzlak@aol.com wrote: > Is this list for environmental issues, or mystic poetry? close...try mystic environmental issues. welcome. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 18 03:10:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA14210 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 03:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA05845; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 03:02:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kirk.hoy.net (dns1.hoy.net [205.235.2.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA28761 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 01:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gabicho ([205.235.2.42]) by kirk.hoy.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAB24386 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 00:12:31 -0500 Message-ID: <00a501bf018f$88e31dc0$1902ebcd@gabicho> From: gabicho@hoy.net (gabicho) To: "biodinamics" Subject: soil - plant- animal- human Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 20:50:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0068_01BF014E.38209700" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1803 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01BF014E.38209700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can some one give me an idea about the principles of BD, in the = agricultural production, in special about fertilization. gabriel espinosa hda.la alegria aloag-ecuador gabicho@hoy.net ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01BF014E.38209700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can some one give me an idea about = the=20 principles of BD, in the agricultural production, in special about=20 fertilization.
 
 
gabriel espinosa
hda.la=20 alegria
aloag-ecuador
gabicho@hoy.net
------=_NextPart_000_0068_01BF014E.38209700-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 18 06:48:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA15272 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 06:48:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA11009; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 06:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA10956 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 06:40:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.125] (pm3shep4-163-195.intrepid.net [209.190.163.195]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA28025 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 06:44:38 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 18:36:24 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: FWD: Vincent Foster Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1804 >In light of the recent revelations regarding the events at WACO, you may >be >interested in reading this article about inconsistencies in the >original >reports on the death of Vincent Foster, man inside the >administration who had expressed grave misgivings about the events at Waco >as they happened. >MUST READ!!!!! > >http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/19990915_xex_foster_death.shtml From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 18 07:03:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA15361 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 07:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA11356; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 06:56:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA11253 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 06:54:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.125] (pm3shep4-163-195.intrepid.net [209.190.163.195]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA29195 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 06:59:10 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00a501bf018f$88e31dc0$1902ebcd@gabicho> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:05:09 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: soil - plant- animal- human Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1805 > Can some one give me an idea about the principles of BD, in the >agricultural production, in special about fertilization. gabriel >espinosahda.la alegriaaloag-ecuadorgabicho@hoy.net Dear gabriel - Thanks for your good and appropriate question. Is it possible for you to narrow it down somewhat, my friend? Thanks -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 18 07:03:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA15369 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 07:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA11322; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 06:56:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA11248 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 06:54:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.125] (pm3shep4-163-195.intrepid.net [209.190.163.195]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA29189 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 06:59:04 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <383831832.937621074244.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:02:33 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: COTS: September 12, 1999 - September 18, 1999 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1806 >Dear Allan, > >If this means there would be poetry at the Mid-Atlantic BD Conference, then >methinks I need to sprout wings, and fast! > Howard Shapiro is keynoting on Friday. Now there's your prophet/poet with a million dollar slideshow! Al Kapuler, called by Mark Blumenthal of Herbalgram 'The James Brown of the Gene pool' keynoted for us four years ago. We had a prominent young gardener/poet introduce him with a poem ("Sow your seed young men" is all I really remember from it.) I'd like to make it clear however, that I support farmer/poets, the one's who catch God's words when they are alone in field or pasture and write them down with inspiration at night after completing the farm journal. Poets wjp play with words to demonstrate their own own cleverness while riding on the back of agriculture, I feel IMHO, should be bled into grain fields, and hung by their chins from fence posts until dry enough to compost...but that's probably just the bolshevik in me talking. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 18 09:00:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16354 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 09:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13888; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 08:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from moose.erie.net (moose.erie.net [208.138.204.11]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA13822 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 08:50:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erie.net (pm6-36.erie.net [208.1.140.52]) by moose.erie.net (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA19235 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 08:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37E38D1C.FBA05083@erie.net> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 09:01:17 -0400 From: Mark Winschel Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: COTS: September 12, 1999 - September 18, 1999 References: <60E456BB043E86CC852567EF007C432E.0000000000000000@webcity> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1807 Thank you for the poem and question. Ya know it just seems... so appropriate for a gardener to be mystical to live with a sense of awe, and without a ceiling - me thinks! And by the way, does anyone really know out there how big - "this" is? As Mr Steiner says: From the darkness of the soul creates the fruit of self engendered will. Now there's a metaphor for the seed and soil if I ever heard one. Sounds like a gardener to me! Yup Do the bd preps make a lot of sense with out the backdrop of a cosmos radiating a full spectrum of wavelengths that we through our receptors gather (ears that can hear again) for the full symphony of a balanced ground of potential? Sincerely, Mark Winschel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 18 11:12:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17755 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 11:12:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17597; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 11:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kirk.hoy.net (dns1.hoy.net [205.235.2.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17526 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 11:03:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gabicho ([205.235.2.76]) by kirk.hoy.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA20680 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 10:06:40 -0500 Message-ID: <019e01bf01e2$8bcd7dc0$1902ebcd@gabicho> From: gabicho@hoy.net (gabicho) To: "biodinamics" Subject: Fw: soil - plant- animal- human Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 10:01:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1808 -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, September 18, 1999 7:07 AM Subject: Re: soil - plant- animal- human >Thanks for your good and appropriate question. Is it possible for you to >narrow it down somewhat, my friend? >-Allan >igg@igg.com Firts of all sorry for my grammar. I have been used more than 6 elements to fertilize my paddocks since 1997, and as volcanics soils we have lots of imbalances and lockup of P and others. Some farmers found that using 700 kg of N plus some phosphates and some micros, is an alternative for improving the pastures and fill the cows bag. What I start doing was liming, then using elemental S with lime, and using SPP and Boron, Cu, Na (we farm at 10000 feet above sea level) and now I can use reactive rock (sechura), I have Iron in excess, some aluminum, low P content 25ppm at olsen. What I think is to tried to let the soil react and work and use the minimum of N. What could BD do and what I must do to maintain a balance to don't make damage to the environment and improve farm production? Sorry for the question, I think must of you have solved this elemental problems of fert. and can think in poetry. regards gabriel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 18 13:25:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19180 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:25:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22742; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:12:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22594 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts3-24.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.203.88]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA29005 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 10:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <003701bf01f9$55f88ca0$58cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: Subject: Re: FWD: Vincent Foster Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 10:14:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1809 Why, Allan, if you're interested in this kind of thing, read this: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Bad Luck A few reasons why you should never get to know Klinton too well... Author unknown (surprise!) Here's the latest list of suspicious/mysterious deaths around the prez. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Susan Coleman Rumors were circulating in Arkansas of an affair with Bill Clinton. She was found dead with a gunshot wound to the head at 7 1/2 months pregnant. Death was an apparent suicide. Larry Guerrin Was killed in February 1987 while investigating the INSLAW case. Kevin Ives & Don Henry Initial cause of death was reported to be the result of falling asleep on a railroad track in Arkansas on August 23, 1987. This ruling was reported by the State medical examiner Fahmy Malak. Later it was determined that Kevin died from a crushed skull prior to being placed on the tracks. Don had been stabbed in the back. Rumors indicate that they might have stumbled upon a Mena drug operation. Keith Koney Keith had information on the Ives/Henry deaths. Died in a motorcycle accident in July 1988 with unconfirmed reports of a high speed car chase. Keith McKaskle McKaskle has information on the Ives/Henry deaths. He was stabbed to death in November 1988. Gregory Collins Greg had information on the Ives/Henry deaths. He died from a gunshot wound to the face in January 1989. Jeff Rhodes He had information on the deaths of Ives, Henry & McKaskle. His burned body was found in a trash dump in April 1989. He died of a gunshot wound to the head and there was some body mutilation, leading to the probably speculation that he was tortured prior to being killed. James Milam Milam had information on the Ives & Henry deaths. He was decapitated. The state Medical examiner, Fahmy Malak, initially ruled death due to natural causes. Richard Winters Winters was a suspect in the deaths of Ives & Henry. He was killed in a "robbery" in July 1989 which was subsequently proven to be a setup. Jordan Kettleson Kettleson had information on the Ives & Henry deaths. He was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup in June 1990. Alan Standorf An employee of the National Security Agency in electronic intelligence. Standorf was a source of information for Danny Casalaro who was investigating INSLAW, BCCI, etc. Standorf's body was found in the backseat of a car at Washington National Airport on Jan 31, 1991. Dennis Eisman An attorney with information on INSLAW. Eisman was found shot to death on April 5, 1991. Danny Casalaro Danny was a free-lance reporter and writer who was investigating the "October Surprise", INSLAW and BCCI. Danny was found dead in a bathtub in a Sheraton Hotel room in Martinsburg, Virginia. Danny was staying at the hotel while keeping appointments in the DC area pertinent to his investigation. He was found with his wrists slashed. At least one, and possibly both of his wrists were cut 10 times. All of his research materials were missing and have never been recovered. Victor Raisner The National Finance Co-Chair for "Clinton for President." He died in a airplane crash on July 30, 1992. R. Montgomery Raisner Also involved in the Clinton presidential campaign. He died in the same plane crash as Victor. Paul Tulley Tulley was on the Democratic Nation Committee. He was found dead of unknown causes in his hotel room on September 24, 1992. Ian Spiro Spiro had supporting documentation for grand jury proceedings on the INSLAW case. His wife and 3 children were found murdered on November 1, 1992 in their home. The all died of gunshot wounds to the head. Ian's body was found several days later in a parked car in the Borego Desert. Cause of death? The ingestion of cyanide. FBI report indicated that Ian had murdered his family and then committed suicide. Paula Gober A Clinton speech writer. She died in a car accident on December 9, 1992. Jim Wilhite Wilhite was an associate of Mack McClarty's former firm. Wilhite died in a skiing accident on December 21, 1992. Steve Willis, Robert Williams, Todd McKeahan & Conway LeBleu All were Clinton bodyguards. They also were the ONLY 4 BATF agents killed at Waco. John Crawford An attorney with information on INSLAW. He died from a heart attack in Tacoma in April of 1993. Brian Hassley, Timothy Sabel, William Barkley & Scott Reynolds All were Clinton escorts/bodyguards. All died in a helicopter crash on May 19, 1993. Paul Wilcher A lawyer who was investigating drug running out of Mena, Arkansas and who also sought to expose the "October Surprise", BCCI and INSLAW. He was found in his Washington DC apartment dead of unknown causes on June 22, 1993. Vincent Foster A Whitehouse deputy counsel and long-time personal friend of Bill and Hillary's. Found on July 20, 1993, dead of a gunshot wound to the mouth -- a death ruled suicide. Many different theories on this case! Jon Parnell Walker An investigator for the RTC who was looking into the linkage between the Whitewater and Madison S&L bankruptcy. Walker "fell" from the top of the Lincoln Towers Building. Stanley Heard & Steven Dickson They were members of the Clinton health care advisory committee. They died in a plane crash on September 10, 1993. Jerry Parks Parks was the Chief of Security for Clinton's national campaign headquarters in Little Rock. He had created an extensive file on Clintons sexual affairs in the 1980's. His bullet ridden body was found on Interstate 10 outside Little Rock on September 26, 1993. Ed Willey A Clinton fundraiser. He died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound on November 30, 1993. Gandy Baugh Baugh was Lasater's attorney and committed suicide on January 8, 1994. Baugh's partner committed suicide exactly one month later on February 8, 1994. Herschell Friday A member of the presidential campaign finance committee. He died in an airplane explosion on March 1, 1994. Ronald Rogers Rogers died on March 3, 1994 just prior to releasing sensitive information to a London newspaper. Cause of death? Undetermined. Kathy Furguson A 38 year old hospital worker whose ex-husband is a co- defendant in the Paula Jones sexual harassment law suit. She had information supporting Paula Jone's allegations. She died of an apparent suicide on May 11, 1994 from a gunshot wound to the head. Bill Shelton Shelton was an Arkansas police officer and was found dead as an apparent suicide on kathy Ferguson's grave (Kathy was his girl friend), on June 12, 1994. This "suicide" was the result of a gunshot wound to the back of the head. Stanley Huggins Huggins, 46, was a principal in a Memphis law firm which headed a 1987 investigation into the loan practices of Madison Guaranty S&L. Stanley died in Delaware in July 1994 -- reported cause of death was viral pneumonia. Calvin Walraven 24 year on Walraven was a key witness against Jocelyn Elder's son's drug case. Walraven was found dead in his apartment with a gunshot wound to the head. Tim Hover, a Little Rock police spokesman says no foul play is suspected. "The strength and power of despotism consists wholly in the fear of resistance." - Thomas Paine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- [ Politics ][ Sumeria ] From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 18 13:40:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19314 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:40:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23346; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:31:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23220 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:27:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.70] (pm3shep2-163-70.intrepid.net [209.190.163.70]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA10315 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:32:24 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003701bf01f9$55f88ca0$58cb6cce@netacc.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 01:38:22 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF:Re: FWD: Vincent Foster Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1810 >Why, Allan, if you're interested in this kind of thing, read this: > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---- > >Bad Luck >A few reasons why you should never get to know Klinton too well... Author >unknown (surprise!) > >Here's the latest list of suspicious/mysterious deaths around the prez. Woody - Danny Casellero is on this list. He was murdered locally while trying to get information from an employee of the IRS computing center in Martinsburg, WV. But Danny was investigating 'the octopus,' which Bush and Reagan were involved in (through the October Surprise). What am I missing here, how does this death stick to Clinton? Thanks for the post however. If this is a general listing, You need to add John Lennon, leader of the World Peace movement, who was shot down in the street and Abbie Hoffmans, who died alone, like virtually every EFFECTIVE singer/songwriter of the 60's protest movments eventually did. Before his his untimely deah Lennon played the fool for a while, then re-emerged only to be shot down; Dylan entered into his fool phase at the same time as Lennon, where he remains, albeit with an occassional 'slip.' What do they say? 30 years of assassination preceded Hitler's election in Germany? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 18 13:59:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19637 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:59:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24428; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24360 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FLYLO (ppp226.cy-net.net [208.21.195.35]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06732 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 12:56:33 -0500 Received: by FLYLO with Microsoft Mail id <01BF01D5.37EB69E0@FLYLO>; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 12:56:26 -0500 Message-ID: <01BF01D5.37EB69E0@FLYLO> From: Martha Wells To: "'Biodynamic Now'" Subject: Biodynamic Cheese Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 12:56:17 -0500 Encoding: 22 TEXT Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1811 I was looking through my elderly Cheesemaker Journals and ran across May/June 1983 cover Biodynamic Cheese. The article was about Morningland Dairy owned by Jim & Margie Reiner, Robert & Donna Roman and others who shared the labor. "Biodynamic techniques have developed through thousands of years of experimentation and focus on methods that yield the best long-term results" (Robert Roman). "Nurturing natural systems of soil, plants, animals and men is the basis of an organic program that Rudolph Steiner made famous under the name biodynamics." It goes on to mention that Robert had 1 1/2 years experience in England with biodynamic farming. The other people mentioned as being partners or active in the farm: Mark Adams, Heidi Eisenmann, Michael and Suni Maltas, Deborah Kahn and Ronnie Jones. I was wondering if any of these folk are on BD NOW and could enlighten us more about this biodynamic dairy. I was looking for a recipe for Domiati cheese, but am having to 'wing it'. It's a salty Mediterranean aged cheese similar to feta. Mine is 'working' now. martha, Flylo Farms, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 18 20:07:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA24238 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA11347; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:00:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA11225 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 19:57:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Snarzlak@aol.com Received: from Snarzlak@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hZZPa03813 (4155) for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <609946e5.251581c5@aol.com> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:01:09 EDT Subject: Re: COTS: September 12....Thanks members To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1812 Thanking everybody who took some time to explain to me COTS and some of Steiner's ideas about farming/poetry/spirituality/etc. I have to learn more about biodynamics. If anyone could send me a really great WWW LINK to an informative website discussing biodynamics, I would appreciate it. Thanks- Pat From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 18 21:39:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA24872 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:39:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA14200; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14170 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:26:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-11.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.12]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA07923 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37E43AE4.31874E5E@ap.net> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:22:44 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: COTS: September 12....Thanks members References: <609946e5.251581c5@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1813 Snarzlak@aol.com wrote: > Thanking everybody who took some time to explain to me COTS and some of > Steiner's ideas about farming/poetry/spirituality/etc. I have to learn more > about biodynamics. If anyone could send me a really great WWW LINK to an > informative website discussing biodynamics, I would appreciate it. Thanks- > Pat Pat, you ARE there. Ask away. Welcome. :o) David/ Whirlderv@ap.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 18 22:28:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA25187 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:28:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16140; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:21:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA16055 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:19:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-11.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.12]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA10055 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 19:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37E44748.7C900294@ap.net> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 19:15:37 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: COTS: September 12....Thanks members References: <609946e5.251581c5@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1814 Snarzlak@aol.com wrote: > Thanking everybody who took some time to explain to me COTS and some of > Steiner's ideas about farming/poetry/spirituality/etc. I have to learn more > about biodynamics. If anyone could send me a really great WWW LINK to an > informative website discussing biodynamics, I would appreciate it. Thanks- > Pat Some resources follow. There are many books about biodynamics too. :o) David. Good Places to start on the Web. There are many books on this subject. Inquire additionally on the BD Now list. BiodynamicFarming and Gardening Association http://www. biodynamics.com Pfeiffer Center for Biodynamics & Environmental Education info@pfeiffercenter.org The Rudolf Steiner Archive http://www.c4systm.com/Steiner What is Biodynamics http://www.his.com/~claymont/bd/def.html Creative Alternatives http://www.tiac.net/users/seeker From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 18 23:56:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA25967 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 23:56:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA20187; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 23:49:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20050 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 23:46:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.106] (pm3shep3-163-122.intrepid.net [209.190.163.122]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA24428 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 23:50:35 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37E44748.7C900294@ap.net> References: <609946e5.251581c5@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 11:56:35 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: COTS: September 12....Thanks members Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1815 >Snarzlak@aol.com wrote: > >> Thanking everybody who took some time to explain to me COTS and some of >> Steiner's ideas about farming/poetry/spirituality/etc. I have to learn more >> about biodynamics. If anyone could send me a really great WWW LINK to an >> informative website discussing biodynamics, I would appreciate it. Thanks- >> Pat > > Thanks for being such a good sport, Pat! The link http://www.his.com/~claymont/bd/def.html has been dead for years. Check out http://www.igg.com/bdnow/ There are a couple of book lists there also. One that supports this list, another from JPI. Direct questions about BD are also helpful in getting a 'response' going for you. Thanks for joining the list! -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 19 07:36:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29015 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 07:36:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA01127; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 07:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01069 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 07:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.106] (pm3shep3-163-119.intrepid.net [209.190.163.119]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA22999 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 07:29:48 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <019e01bf01e2$8bcd7dc0$1902ebcd@gabicho> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 19:35:50 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Fw: soil - plant- animal- human Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1816 Dear Garbriel, I know exactly what you mean, tying your camel up before singing the praises of the Lord. Do you have a recent soil test? I think that w.b. a prerequisit for any intelligent contributions from this list. Have you seen any change this season in the varieties of weeds growing in your soils? (Does anyone out there know where the Michael Fields pages are currently located?) In the new biodynamics, we rely primarily on mature compost for our soil fertility (as well as the BD preps) and little on individual soil amendments. However, my personal inclination currently is to start with a good soil test by a good company that can give recommendations for biological farmers and to make those amendments along with BD compost and preps. The Soil Life Foodweb work is very interesting. One of the original workers in this area, Jim Barlow, will be presenting at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference Oct 1-3 http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf (We will also be showing the 'Life in the Soil' video from Japan at the conference.) This approach, a biological inventory of the actual life in the soil, seems to be giving biological farmers better advice than mineral assays on how to make their land productive. If you are seeking an experiment on the effects of biodynamics on your land, try sequential spraying (see http://www.igg.com/bdnow/jpi ) or, a few applications of the biodynamic compound preparation. And then OBSERVE! And, please!, keep in touch! -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com >-----Original Message----- >From: Allan Balliett >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Saturday, September 18, 1999 7:07 AM >Subject: Re: soil - plant- animal- human > > >>Thanks for your good and appropriate question. Is it possible for you to >>narrow it down somewhat, my friend? >>-Allan >>igg@igg.com > > >Firts of all sorry for my grammar. I have been used more than 6 elements to >fertilize my paddocks since 1997, and as volcanics soils we have lots of >imbalances and lockup of P and others. Some farmers found that using 700 kg >of N plus some phosphates and some micros, is an alternative for improving >the pastures and fill the cows bag. >What I start doing was liming, then using elemental S with lime, and using >SPP and Boron, Cu, Na (we farm at 10000 feet above sea level) and now I can >use reactive rock (sechura), I have Iron in excess, some aluminum, low P >content 25ppm at olsen. >What I think is to tried to let the soil react and work and use the minimum >of N. >What could BD do and what I must do to maintain a balance to don't make >damage to the environment and improve farm production? > >Sorry for the question, I think must of you have solved this elemental >problems of fert. and can think in poetry. > > >regards > >gabriel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 19 20:11:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06271 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 20:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03391; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 20:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub2.une.edu.au (postfix@[129.180.4.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03107 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 20:00:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Enveng-dforster.une.edu.au (enveng-dforster.une.edu.au [129.180.135.50]) by mailhub2.une.edu.au (Postfix) with SMTP id EA6EB40EC; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:04:43 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990920100530.00829960@metz.une.edu.au> X-Sender: dforster@metz.une.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:05:30 +1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dianne Forster Subject: Subscription In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1817 Dear BD Now, I applied for a subscription to BD Now a week or so ago but have only heard that it has to be approved. Does that mean you want to know my interest in BD. If so - I am active in BD, not just an armchair reader. My interest stems from being interested in Steiner's work as well as everything from the soil to the psyche. I had BD gardening group for about 10 years which only stopped because I left the district and I haven't started another one where I am now. I also had a health food shop which promoted BD foodstuffs. Is this enough information to enable me to join your iinformation service? Look forward to hearing from you. Deanna Forster From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 19 20:40:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06605 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 20:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05116; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 20:33:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.isholf.is (pop.isholf.is [194.105.226.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA05061 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 20:32:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [194.105.224.159] by mail.isholf.is (NTMail 4.30.0013/NU2631.00.d894e447) with ESMTP id wwddgaaa for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:37:19 +0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?B?SGr2cmRpcw==?=" To: Subject: SV: Subscription Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:31:26 +0100 Message-ID: <01bf02f7$17edc7a0$9fe069c2@nonni> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1818 Hi Dianne ! You have really been through a lot.. I think you are brave. Welcome to my homepage at : http://www.simnet.is/tessa7 Can I come visit your homepage ? Salut les garcons! Hjördís Brynja Mörtudóttir -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: Dianne Forster Till: bdnow@envirolink.org ; bdnow@envirolink.org Datum: 20. september 1999 01:21 Ämne: Subscription >Dear BD Now, I applied for a subscription to BD Now a week or so ago but >have only heard that it has to be approved. Does that mean you want to >know my interest in BD. If so - I am active in BD, not just an armchair >reader. My interest stems from being interested in Steiner's work as well >as everything from the soil to the psyche. I had BD gardening group for >about 10 years which only stopped because I left the district and I haven't >started another one where I am now. I also had a health food shop which >promoted BD foodstuffs. Is this enough information to enable me to join >your iinformation service? Look forward to hearing from you. Deanna >Forster > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 19 23:27:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08879 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 23:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA13048; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 23:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from valis.olywa.net (olywa.net [205.163.58.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA12990 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 23:17:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from permawest.olywa.net ([205.163.58.170]) by valis.olywa.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-56662U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 20:20:51 -0700 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Permaculture West" To: Subject: Unsubscribe info. Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 23:31:40 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990920032051632.AAA25049@valis.olywa.net@permawest.olywa.net> Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1819 I will be on vacation for two weeks and would like to unsubsribe during that time. Could some please remind me how? Thanks, kh permawest@olywa.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 19 23:39:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08993 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 23:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA13713; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 23:32:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com (imo-d02.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.34]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA13532 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 23:30:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Andyschad@aol.com Received: from Andyschad@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hXTRrPCJE_ (3876) for ; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 23:34:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <472ba623.25170546@aol.com> Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 23:34:30 EDT Subject: Re: COTS: September 12, 1999 - September 18, 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1820 Hi Mark, Thanks for the educated comments, a good try, but really, you should stick with the CB 10 10 Andy From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 20 06:41:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA12320 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 06:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA29117; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 06:31:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA28929 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 06:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.184] (pm3shep2-163-108.intrepid.net [209.190.163.108]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA26908 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 06:32:41 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990920032051632.AAA25049@valis.olywa.net@permawest.olywa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 18:36:27 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Unsubscribe info. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1821 >I will be on vacation for two weeks and would like to unsubsribe during >that time. Could some please remind me how? > >Thanks, >kh >permawest@olywa.net This oughta do it: Hey! Are you going to the BIONEERS this year? -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 20 19:12:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA25215 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA17394; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA17272 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:03:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-86.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.86]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA28730 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:07:49 +1000 Message-ID: <006c01bf03bc$ab155460$56431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Subscription Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 08:35:02 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1822 Dear Dianne, Welcome to BDNOW from Australia! You are in Armidale, just 1 1/2 hours away from me - how wonderful! Amazing that we meet via USA! My son is at UNE as well! Ring me if you get a chance - Cheryl Kemp Education & News Leaf Editor Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 bio@midcoast.com.au -----Original Message----- From: Dianne Forster To: bdnow@envirolink.org ; bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, 20 September 1999 10:10 am Subject: Subscription >Dear BD Now, I applied for a subscription to BD Now a week or so ago but >have only heard that it has to be approved. Does that mean you want to >know my interest in BD. If so - I am active in BD, not just an armchair >reader. My interest stems from being interested in Steiner's work as well >as everything from the soil to the psyche. I had BD gardening group for >about 10 years which only stopped because I left the district and I haven't >started another one where I am now. I also had a health food shop which >promoted BD foodstuffs. Is this enough information to enable me to join >your iinformation service? Look forward to hearing from you. Deanna >Forster > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 21 09:49:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04209 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:49:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10472; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:40:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10412 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:39:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha07s106.d.shentel.net [204.111.54.106]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22161 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37E78BB9.B7B062FF@LightExpression.com> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:44:26 -0400 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bio-Dynamic List Subject: Cosmic Trees......... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1823 Greetings..... To everyone on the list -- we will most likely be the "radical BD folks" on this list. BD is radical enough for most folks -- but with BD being an "etheric" farming and gardening concept, we feel that most will another stretch with some "different" concepts and experiences which we have had or are having. First of all -- thanks to Hugh Courtney and Hugh Lovel for their work on the cosmic pipe and cosmic tree (respectively). For those of you who do not know, Sharon and I work with Nature / the Devic Kingdom and garden / farm at the direction of this consciousness. Over the past couple of weeks, we have sensed the need for adding the cosmic pipe concept to the 55 acres on our farm which is in production of hay and alfalfa. Last year, we treated about half of the fields with the Pfeiffer field spray concentrate -- we used this BD prep largely because of the amount of acreage and the amount of stirring that would be needed with the standard preps vs. the Pfeiffer spray. Anyway, we had a portion of the "raw prep" left from last year -- Nature said that it would be fine to use this prep after stirring for approximately 30 minutes. As we are working Nature as the exclusive consciousness for guidance in the energy and farming / gardening work here at the Farm, we asked if there was anything else which was to be added to the preps for this application and got that we should add a custom essence solution to this mix. In the past, we have needed to add a special in-house essence which has been around here for a number of years to the preps for the various applications. This time -- it was a special custom mix. This was to be added to the stirring water and prep prior to stirring. After stirring for a bit, I got the feeling that something else was to be added to the solution. I checked (using dowsing as the communication tool) and found that the special in-house essence mentioned previously was to be added to the equation -- but -- it was to be added at the end of the stirring process. (Some kind of balancing thing) This in-house essence is from the gemstone, amethyst -- story goes along with this that we will not get into now. After the stirring and solution was complete, we wandered into the fields -- there are two trees there in the center of the field area and these two trees were to share in the "broadcast" of the frequencies of this special solution -- one to one side of the fields and the other to the other side. The orientation of the trees were checked as to their "current" orientation and then the request was made that the orientation of the trees be changed to accommodate the the most optimal distribution of the preps and frequencies to the fields. With that done -- the proper location for the custom BD prep solution was determined and the containers set in place. Oh yeah -- the boundaries for the distribution of the preps and special frequencies (essences) was to be the fence line perimeter of the fields -- not beyond. In this process, I was asked to carry the bucket with the stirred prep inside it to the fields -- the solution to be offered the fields was already placed in the smaller containers. We don't ask, we just do. I also received the request that Sharon accompany me to the fields (everyone knows that I couldn't do this on my own!). When the last prep was tied to the tree, Sharon said "Oh, now I know what we are to do with the remaining potentized water -- we are to add some of it to the Vortex." There is a very large vortex here on the Farm which Sharon works with as directed from time to time and offers whatever is "planetary appropriate" at that time of request as directed by the Earth Being. (For those of you who do not understand some of this stuff -- there are a number of books written on some of these concepts -- we simply refine as we go. You could get a sneak preview into the "other worlds" through the new Bruce Willis movie -- Sixth Sense...... :-) ) Anyway, the planet and folks in your neighborhood are now receiving this attunement featuring the BD Pfeiffer field spray and the Light Expression Essence tuning combination solution. Disclaimer -- we have no idea as to what Divinity is requesting here -- from our perspective, it just is........ In order to help some of you with understanding what is possible here -- a couple of years ago, we had a big challenge with "leaf hoppers" . I thought they were grasshoppers :-) ...... These guys were ripping an alfalfa field of ours to pieces -- So, Sharon did a little intuitive work and determined that she should make a custom essence solution which was to be offered energetically -- not spread as a supplement to the fields might be -- to balance the devastation in the fields. It was amazing. After the first day of offering this "custom blend" the leaf hoppers ceased to mow through the alfalfa. Our neighbor -- full time scientific farmer who works here on our farm with us -- was amazed at the results -- we were as well...... As we will refer to ourselves as a research center because we are combining concepts for Farming and Gardening at the direction of Nature which are bit beyond even "normal Bd" protocol, we will try to keep you informed of the experiences which we are having as it is our goal and commitment to assist Divinity in planetary healing (through high vibrational food production, energy work, etc.). Through the years, we have had other experiences which we feel that you may enjoy learning about which references planting placement, soil balancing, and more. We appreciate this list as our opportunity to learn of your experiences and to assist where possible in support of consciousness to our Earth. In service, Wayne and Sharon McEachern *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 21 10:38:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05030 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:38:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15142; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:31:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15028 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:30:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from della.niehs.nih.gov (della.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.42]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.9.1a/8.9.1/NIEHS-1.7) with ESMTP id KAA06068 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:35:08 -0400 Received: by della.niehs.nih.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:34:46 -0400 Message-ID: <9CD202B20FE4D211828800A0C955FB40AEF3C2@drucker.niehs.nih.gov> From: "James.Olivia" To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: ant girl rides again Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:35:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1824 you all have been so helpful, offering creative solutions to my ant problems a while ago (i'm still working on that one) and providing insight into all kinds of other issues as i listen in. i apologize for not being more involved, especially when you've offered me solutions. i am a caregiver and a sometimes frazzled person on my own, too. i have been working at simplifying and letting go of responsibilities i should not carry, etc. i really do treasure a calm, even devoted, attention between people, as i do between people and nature, etc. my heart is in the right place but i just don't let it guide my actions as consistently as i should. still learning... with this personal reminder firmly in place i would like to ask one question and promise any who respond a thoughtful answer. of course i hope it goes without saying that in spite of my past inattention, i really do appreciate where you all are coming from, caring for the earth with such dedication. your stories, the sharing of your daily lives, means a lot to me, whether it's intended for me or for the group. THANK YOU BD! question: i probably will be relocating to the cape cod area next year (specifically MA, RI or NH coastal areas). i am researching towns with CSAs, vegetarians, quakers, alternative medicine, public transportation, green party, schools of various kinds, etc. please let me know if you can recommend any particular small town for someone of the seriously green persuasion. thanks. olivia james From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 21 17:49:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA13242 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:49:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA29940; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:31:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA29806 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip055.computer.net [140.186.252.55]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA16837 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:34:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:33:02 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: September 19, 1999 - September 25, 1999 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id RAA29807 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1825 Calendar of the Soul [September 19, 1999 - September 25, 1999] Twenty-fifth Week (September 22-28) I can belong now to myself And shining spread my inner light Into the dark of space and time. Toward sleep is urging all creation, But inmost soul must stay awake And carry wakefully sun's glowing Into the winter's icy flowing. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Ich darf nun mir gehören Und leuchtend breiten Innenlicht In Raumes- und in Zeitenfinsternis. Zum Schlafe drängt natürlich Wesen, Der Seele Tiefen sollen wachen Und wachend tragen Sonnengluten In kalte Winterfluten. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+25 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 21 21:42:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA16962 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 21:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19861; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 21:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kirk.hoy.net (dns1.hoy.net [205.235.2.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA19523 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 21:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gabicho ([205.235.2.32]) by kirk.hoy.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA38900 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:21:16 -0500 Message-ID: <020a01bf0493$ec1d25a0$5102ebcd@gabicho> From: gabicho@hoy.net (gabicho) To: "biodinamics" Subject: new volcanic soils Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:46:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0207_01BF0472.63BD5AC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1826 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0207_01BF0472.63BD5AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allan; These are our area solis, and mine are labed like gabriel espinosa, in = general we have low P, high K Fe Mg, Cu(is loked), low B S Na N, medium = Ca. I applied in July some RPR from sechura peru (few rain until sep), and I = am surprised of the results. I have lot of problems with bloat. I send also pasture analysis made in NZ.=20 Thanks for your comments =20 gabriel ANALYSIS DE SUELOS =20 Feb-98 =20 =20 =20 PH MO NH4 P olsen K Ca Mg Na Cu Fe Mn Zn B S Fe/Mn =20 % ppm ppm meq meq meq meq ppm ppm ppm ppm ppm Ppm =20 CH CHI =20 1 Corralones 2 5.8 16.74 41 3.08 0.1 5.15 0.91 0.02 3.3 157.7 3.5 7.7 0.24 7.6 45.05 =20 2 Corralones 1 5.7 14.62 34 2.0=20 0.07 3.02 0.8 0.02 4.1 145.1 2.1 8.9 0.24 8.5 69.09 =20 E Espinosa gabriel =20 3 33-36-39 6.1 8.76 58 17 0.51 5.43 2.1 0.06 4.4 343.9 3.6 3.9 0.7 27.8 95.52 =20 4 46-45-44-43 6.1 6.07 18 8 0.37 2.26 0.82 0.06 1.5 79.8 0.7 1.1 0.39 15.3 114 =20 5 8 6.0=20 9.00 51 13 0.16 5.02 2.07 0.07 3.3 3.61 2.6 5.4 0.61 13.4 139.11 =20 6 24-25 5.9=20 8.06 49 29 0.37 5.67 2.34 0.1 4.6 388.9 6.8 6.1 0.85 19.3 57.19 =20 7 30-30A 5.9=20 8.91 50 14 0.41 5.23 2.08 0.08 3.6 427.3 2.2 3.4 0.63 12.3 194.22 =20 F FR =20 8 OVALO 7.2=20 7.16 42 37 0.22 10.47 3.78 0.19 2.9 121.1 18.1 5.1 0.79 6.5 6.69 =20 9 NINAS 8.0=20 7.41 54 28 0.15 10.44 2.35 0.37 5.1 37.6 43.3 4.7 1.06 10.8 0.86 =20 10 PINOS 6.3=20 3.55 40 10 0.16 4.11 1.26 0.08 3.7 85.3 4.9 4.1 1.08 8.3 17.4 =20 11 AGUARICO 6.2=20 2.1 54 12 0.17 4.09 1.32 0.09 4.4 103.5 6.7 8.4 0.97 2.3 15.44 =20 12 SAN JORGE-CAPUL 8.0=20 4.26 45 27 0.13 8.89 3.26 0.35 6.1 63 46.3 7 1.11 12.4 1.36 =20 G Gal =20 13 BROCOLI=20 6.3 7.45 76 17 0.18 5.98 1.96 0.1 7 514.7 8.7 2.8 2.4 121.7 59.16 =20 14 SAN JUAN 5.9 11.24 53 5 0.35 2.43 0.79 0.04 6.4 275.3 5.1 3.6 0.18 22.3 53.98 =20 15 PRIMEROS 6.0 10.92 46 9 0.24 4.47 1.07 0.06 6.1 414 5.1 4.4 0.15 12.7 81.17 =20 16 INTERMEDIOS 5.9 10.32 56 3 0.32 3.76 0.8 0.04 5.2 295.6 3.9 4.2 0.19 17.9 75.79 =20 L LA =20 17 SUROESTE-1 5.8 9.83 65 5 0.17 3.98 0.75 0.06 5.5 340.1 12.7 8.5 0.53 8.7 26.78 =20 18 NORESRE-3 5.5 9.98 103 10 0.22 3.61 0.71 0.09 6 371.9 32.3 7.0 0.61 23.8 11.51 =20 19 NORESTE-4 5.7 11.46 74 5 0.2 4.27 0.7 0.06 5.1 326.5 20 9.4 0.55 7.1 16.32 =20 20 SURESTE-2 5.6 15.92 77 5 0.23 3.53 0.66 0.04 4.9 323.1 18.7 7.8 5.9 10 17.27 =20 L LR =20 21 14 5.7 7.43 26 18 0.33 2.45 0.72 0.08 2.6 94.4 2.6 1.2 0.58 31.4 36.3 =20 22 11 6.0 10.33 27 8 0.29 3.84 0.65 0.03 3.8 124.9 1.9 2 0.50 14.2 65.73 =20 23 14 6.3 9.7 38 6 0.51 4.47 1.31 0.05 4.8 199.2 2.4 2.3 1.12 12.3 83 =20 24 STA.ANA 40-42 6.1 10.29 43 10 0.22 5.69 1.53 0.06 4.2 230.9 3.6 3.2 0.35 13.2 64.13 =20 25 STA.ANA 34-39 6.1 9.06 38 8 0.38 3.74 1.27 0.04 4.7 169.9 2.1 2.4 0.43 22.3 80.9 =20 26 STA.ANA 43-46 5.9 9.07 45 11 0.35 4.99 1.59 0.05 4.7 221.2 3.3 2.9 0.33 19.3 67.03 =20 27 P 5 6.5 9.38 53 17 0.36 6.33 1.92 0.07 15.3 294.2 3.5 3.4 0.2 15 84.05 =20 28 P 12 5.9 9.78 57 27 0.39 4.29 0.97 0.05 15.5 348.8 4.8 2.8 0.13 21.1 72.66 =20 28 P 15 6.2 11.75 48 12 0.46 5.52 1.61 0.05 8.1 298.8 2.8 4.1 0.18 13.7 106.71 =20 P PERSEB =20 30 SAN JOSE ALTO 5.9 8.96 42 10 0.51 8.56 1.62 0.05 5.6 254.1 2.5 4.1 0.44 14.7 101.64 =20 31 CONCEPCION 6.3 8.78 43 13 0.77 10.95 2.67 0.04 5.3 226.3 1.7 4.0 0.54 16.6 133.11 =20 32 STA.ROSA 6.1 7.74 43 13 0.75 11.21 3.36 0.05 4.9 226.7 1.9 3.0 0.61 20 119.3 =20 33 SAN ANTONIO 6.2 8.99 39 8 0.66 11.53 3.43 0.04 4.2 224.9 2.0 4.1 0.40 62.6 112.45 =20 34 ARRAYAN 6.0 10.3 44 6 0.71 8.40 2.08 0.04 6.1 331.8 2.9 2.9 0.49 15.5 114.41 =20 35 PORTALANZA 6.1 9.59 40 7 0.72 8.86 2.5 0.04 6.3 305.1 2.3 3.2 0.42 9.8 132.65 =20 PH MO NH4 P K Ca Mg Na Cu Fe Mn Zn B S Fe/Mn =20 =20 =20 =20 Pasture analysis low fat low P high K =20 variedades alfalfa/trebol/bromo/nui/ =20 =20 =20 COMO=20 MATERIA VALOR =20 UNIDAD ALIMENTO SECA IDEAL =20 Humedad % 75 25 =20 =20 Proteina cruda % 4.97 19.88 12-15 =20 Proteina metabolizable gr/Kg 3.7 14.78 10.84 =20 TDN =20 15.84 63.36 68-72 =20 Energia=20 Mj/kg 2.92 11.69 13.28 =20 Energia=20 Kcal/kg 0.7 2.79 3.17 =20 Energia Digestible Mca/kg 0.7 2.79 =20 =20 Energia Metabolizable Mca/kg 0.57 2.29 =20 =20 N.E. Lactacion Mca/kg 0.39 1.58 =20 =20 N.E. Mantenimiento Mca/kg 0.36 1.42 =20 =20 N.E. Ganancia Mca/kg 0.21 0.86 =20 =20 Grasa =20 0.44 1.75 3-5 =20 Extracto etereo digestible =20 0.29 1.17 3.02 =20 Fibra cruda =20 6.03 24.1 15-20 =20 Fibra digestible =20 4.28 17.11 10.65 =20 Extracto libre nitrogeno =20 12.02 48.08 =20 =20 Extrac.libre nitr.digestible =20 7.21 28.85 =20 =20 ADF =20 5.78 23.1 =20 =20 NDF =20 10.6 42.4 =20 =20 Cenizas % 1.55 6.2 =20 =20 Azufre % 0.03 0.11 .15-.19 =20 Fosforo % 0.04 0.14 0.33 =20 Calcio % 0.12 0.5 0.5 =20 Potasio % =20 5 2.5 =20 Magnesio % 0.06 0.24 0.25 =20 Sodio % 0.02 0.09 0.17 =20 Hierro mg/kg 15.2 60.8 50-100 =20 Manganeso mg/kg 56.7 226.8 40-60 =20 Cobre mg/kg 44.9 179.6 4-10 =20 Zinc mg/kg 10.1 40.4 20-40 =20 Cobalto mg/kg 0.058 0.23 .07-.11 =20 Nitratos % 0.04 0.17 0.21 =20 Total de carbohidratos % =20 72.18 =20 =20 Potencial de Fermentacion de Urea =20 =20 -2.9347 =20 =20 Valor Relativo del Alimento RFV =20 =20 85.38 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 gabriel espinosa hda.la alegria aloag-ecuador gabicho@hoy.net ------=_NextPart_000_0207_01BF0472.63BD5AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Allan;
 
These are our area solis, and mine are labed like = gabriel=20 espinosa, in general we have low P, high K Fe Mg, Cu(is loked), low = B  S Na=20 N, medium Ca.
I applied in July some RPR from sechura peru (few = rain until=20 sep), and I am surprised of the results. I have  lot of problems = with=20 bloat.
I send also pasture analysis made in = NZ. 
Thanks for your = comments
 
gabriel
 
 
 
 

ANALYSIS DE = SUELOS

                             
 

Feb-98

                             
                                 
                                 
   

PH

MO

NH4

P olsen

K

Ca

Mg

Na

Cu

Fe

Mn

Zn

B

S

Fe/Mn

     

%

ppm

ppm

meq

meq

meq

meq

ppm

ppm

ppm

ppm

ppm

Ppm

 

CH

CHI

                             

1

Corralones 2

5.8

16.74

41

3.08

0.1

5.15

0.91

0.02

3.3

157.7

3.5

7.7

0.24

7.6

45.05

2

Corralones 1

5.7

14.62

34

2.0

0.07

3.02

0.8

0.02

4.1

145.1

2.1

8.9

0.24

8.5

69.09

E

Espinosa gabriel

                             

3

33-36-39

6.1

8.76

58

17

0.51

5.43

2.1

0.06

4.4

343.9

3.6

3.9

0.7

27.8

95.52

4

46-45-44-43

6.1

6.07

18

8

0.37

2.26

0.82

0.06

1.5

79.8

0.7

1.1

0.39

15.3

114

5

8

6.0

9.00

51

13

0.16

5.02

2.07

0.07

3.3

3.61

2.6

5.4

0.61

13.4

139.11

6

24-25

5.9

8.06

49

29

0.37

5.67

2.34

0.1

4.6

388.9

6.8

6.1

0.85

19.3

57.19

7

30-30A

5.9

8.91

50

14

0.41

5.23

2.08

0.08

3.6

427.3

2.2

3.4

0.63

12.3

194.22

F

FR

                             

8

OVALO

7.2

7.16

42

37

0.22

10.47

3.78

0.19

2.9

121.1

18.1

5.1

0.79

6.5

6.69

9

NINAS

8.0

7.41

54

28

0.15

10.44

2.35

0.37

5.1

37.6

43.3

4.7

1.06

10.8

0.86

10

PINOS

6.3

3.55

40

10

0.16

4.11

1.26

0.08

3.7

85.3

4.9

4.1

1.08

8.3

17.4

11

AGUARICO

6.2

2.1

54

12

0.17

4.09

1.32

0.09

4.4

103.5

6.7

8.4

0.97

2.3

15.44

12

SAN JORGE-CAPUL

8.0

4.26

45

27

0.13

8.89

3.26

0.35

6.1

63

46.3

7

1.11

12.4

1.36

G

Gal

                             

13

BROCOLI

6.3

7.45

76

17

0.18

5.98

1.96

0.1

7

514.7

8.7

2.8

2.4

121.7

59.16

14

SAN JUAN

5.9

11.24

53

5

0.35

2.43

0.79

0.04

6.4

275.3

5.1

3.6

0.18

22.3

53.98

15

PRIMEROS

6.0

10.92

46

9

0.24

4.47

1.07

0.06

6.1

414

5.1

4.4

0.15

12.7

81.17

16

INTERMEDIOS

5.9

10.32

56

3

0.32

3.76

0.8

0.04

5.2

295.6

3.9

4.2

0.19

17.9

75.79

L

LA

                             

17

SUROESTE-1

5.8

9.83

65

5

0.17

3.98

0.75

0.06

5.5

340.1

12.7

8.5

0.53

8.7

26.78

18

NORESRE-3

5.5

9.98

103

10

0.22

3.61

0.71

0.09

6

371.9

32.3

7.0

0.61

23.8

11.51

19

NORESTE-4

5.7

11.46

74

5

0.2

4.27

0.7

0.06

5.1

326.5

20

9.4

0.55

7.1

16.32

20

SURESTE-2

5.6

15.92

77

5

0.23

3.53

0.66

0.04

4.9

323.1

18.7

7.8

5.9

10

17.27

L

LR

                             

21

14

5.7

7.43

26

18

0.33

2.45

0.72

0.08

2.6

94.4

2.6

1.2

0.58

31.4

36.3

22

11

6.0

10.33

27

8

0.29

3.84

0.65

0.03

3.8

124.9

1.9

2

0.50

14.2

65.73

23

14

6.3

9.7

38

6

0.51

4.47

1.31

0.05

4.8

199.2

2.4

2.3

1.12

12.3

83

24

STA.ANA 40-42

6.1

10.29

43

10

0.22

5.69

1.53

0.06

4.2

230.9

3.6

3.2

0.35

13.2

64.13

25

STA.ANA 34-39

6.1

9.06

38

8

0.38

3.74

1.27

0.04

4.7

169.9

2.1

2.4

0.43

22.3

80.9

26

STA.ANA 43-46

5.9

9.07

45

11

0.35

4.99

1.59

0.05

4.7

221.2

3.3

2.9

0.33

19.3

67.03

27

P 5

6.5

9.38

53

17

0.36

6.33

1.92

0.07

15.3

294.2

3.5

3.4

0.2

15

84.05

28

P 12

5.9

9.78

57

27

0.39

4.29

0.97

0.05

15.5

348.8

4.8

2.8

0.13

21.1

72.66

28

P 15

6.2

11.75

48

12

0.46

5.52

1.61

0.05

8.1

298.8

2.8

4.1

0.18

13.7

106.71

P

PERSEB

                             

30

SAN JOSE ALTO

5.9

8.96

42

10

0.51

8.56

1.62

0.05

5.6

254.1

2.5

4.1

0.44

14.7

101.64

31

CONCEPCION

6.3

8.78

43

13

0.77

10.95

2.67

0.04

5.3

226.3

1.7

4.0

0.54

16.6

133.11

32

STA.ROSA

6.1

7.74

43

13

0.75

11.21

3.36

0.05

4.9

226.7

1.9

3.0

0.61

20

119.3

33

SAN ANTONIO

6.2

8.99

39

8

0.66

11.53

3.43

0.04

4.2

224.9

2.0

4.1

0.40

62.6

112.45

34

ARRAYAN

6.0

10.3

44

6

0.71

8.40

2.08

0.04

6.1

331.8

2.9

2.9

0.49

15.5

114.41

35

PORTALANZA

6.1

9.59

40

7

0.72

8.86

2.5

0.04

6.3

305.1

2.3

3.2

0.42

9.8

132.65

   

PH

MO

NH4

P

K

Ca

Mg

Na

Cu

Fe

Mn

Zn

B

S

Fe/Mn

 
 
Pasture analysis
low = fat
low P
high K
 
 

variedades

alfalfa/trebol/bromo/nui/

COMO

MATERIA

VALOR

UNIDAD

ALIMENTO

SECA

IDEAL

Humedad

%

75

25

Proteina cruda

%

4.97

19.88

12-15

Proteina metabolizable

gr/Kg

3.7

14.78

10.84

TDN

15.84

63.36

68-72

Energia

Mj/kg

2.92

11.69

13.28

Energia

Kcal/kg

0.7

2.79

3.17

Energia Digestible

Mca/kg

0.7

2.79

Energia Metabolizable

Mca/kg

0.57

2.29

N.E. Lactacion

Mca/kg

0.39

1.58

N.E. Mantenimiento

Mca/kg

0.36

1.42

N.E. Ganancia

Mca/kg

0.21

0.86

Grasa

0.44

1.75

3-5

Extracto etereo digestible

0.29

1.17

3.02

Fibra cruda

6.03

24.1

15-20

Fibra digestible

4.28

17.11

10.65

Extracto libre nitrogeno

12.02

48.08

Extrac.libre nitr.digestible

7.21

28.85

ADF

5.78

23.1

NDF

10.6

42.4

Cenizas

%

1.55

6.2

Azufre

%

0.03

0.11

.15-.19

Fosforo

%

0.04

0.14

0.33

Calcio

%

0.12

0.5

0.5

Potasio

%

5

2.5

Magnesio

%

0.06

0.24

0.25

Sodio

%

0.02

0.09

0.17

Hierro

mg/kg

15.2

60.8

50-100

Manganeso

mg/kg

56.7

226.8

40-60

Cobre

mg/kg

44.9

179.6

4-10

Zinc

mg/kg

10.1

40.4

20-40

Cobalto

mg/kg

0.058

0.23

.07-.11

Nitratos

%

0.04

0.17

0.21

Total de carbohidratos

%

72.18

Potencial de Fermentacion de = Urea

-2.9347

Valor Relativo del Alimento = RFV

85.38

 
 
gabriel espinosa
hda.la=20 alegria
aloag-ecuador
gabicho@hoy.net
 
------=_NextPart_000_0207_01BF0472.63BD5AC0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 22 13:49:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00991 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 13:49:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA29283; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 13:37:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA28550 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 13:33:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Snarzlak@aol.com Received: from Snarzlak@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hHUBa14262 (7997) for ; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 13:38:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3d72e23.251a6dfb@aol.com> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 13:38:03 EDT Subject: Re: COTS: September 19, 1999 - September 25, 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1827 OK...so was this poem written by Steiner himself and then translated to English? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 22 15:00:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02551 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 15:00:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09637; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 14:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09365 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 14:51:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d146.infoserve.net [199.175.157.146]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA09969 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 12:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000801bf052c$cfe11d80$929dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: COTS: September 19, 1999 - September 25, 1999 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 12:00:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1828 Yes, different one for each week of the year. Part of our breathing in/out each day, each week, each year. M. -----Original Message----- From: Snarzlak@aol.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 10:54 AM Subject: Re: COTS: September 19, 1999 - September 25, 1999 >OK...so was this poem written by Steiner himself and then translated to >English? > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 24 12:45:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25022 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:45:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11377; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:38:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10903 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:33:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.23] (pm3shep1-163-29.intrepid.net [209.190.163.29]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA29552 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:38:32 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 00:41:52 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Dan Carlson at Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference Oct 1 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1829 (x-posting appreciated!) Dear BD Now! Member - In case you were holding your breath, Dan Carlson called yesterday to confirm that he and his associate ANDRE will be presenting at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference. Dan, as you may well know, was featured in SECRETS of the SOIL and is the inventor of SONIC BLOOM, a foliar feeding system. Andre is working on creating a synthesis between SONIC BLOOM and the BIODYNAMIC PREPS. Dan is scheduled to present on Saturday and on Sunday, Oct 2-3. His presentation will emphasize new successes in working with trees. Thanks -Allan Balliett =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Sep 24 23:27:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05148 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 23:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA28718; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 23:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA28653 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 23:18:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.67.166] (r-67.166.alltel.net [166.102.67.166]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id WAA26944 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 22:23:24 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 22:23:24 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: uai@alltel.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Where I've Been Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1830 Dear BD NOW! List, For some time now my computer has been in the shop, dysfunctional. The hard drive failed. Weeks worth of fun. In the midst of this my telephone company was bought out and my e-mail address was changed. I've lost all my addresses, so if you want to send my your address I'll re-build my files. In the meantime please note my new e-mail address. Sincerely, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 25 20:06:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04831 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 20:06:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA21502; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 19:58:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d08.mx.aol.com (imo-d08.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA21300 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 19:55:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hUWWzXaD5_ (3988) for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 19:57:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4e9f8a3f.251ebb60@aol.com> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 19:57:20 EDT Subject: Re: Where I've Been To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1831 Hugh, my better address is christine@lilipoh.com All the best, Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 25 22:46:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06240 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:46:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00121; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:41:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00074 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:41:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Andyschad@aol.com Received: from Andyschad@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hAADa22369 (4228) for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:45:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:45:31 EDT Subject: Re: ant girl rides again To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1832 Hi, did you think of Gloucester, MA? I liked it when I vacationed there. Andy From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 25 22:50:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06300 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:50:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00313; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:45:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00197 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:42:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Andyschad@aol.com Received: from Andyschad@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hLXZa05746 (4228) for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:47:01 EDT Subject: Re: COTS: September 19, 1999 - September 25, 1999 To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1833 Hi, Thanks so much for putting these out. It's so wonderful to read them again, they are real gems. Andy From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Sep 25 23:38:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA06938 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 23:38:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02381; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 23:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com (imo-d09.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.41]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02297 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 23:31:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Andyschad@aol.com Received: from Andyschad@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hIAL0hnZqO (4228) for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 23:35:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 23:35:39 EDT Subject: Re: ant girl rides again To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1834 hi, Well I liked the beach for the little ones, the book shop, toy shop. the whole aspect of the artists interested me. I liked the feel of the town. seemed fairly laid back. perhaps seasonally over crowded. Nice health food shop, suprised to see 7 stars yogurt there! friends speak well of the place and isn't there a Waldorf schol there? Andy From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 26 09:03:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA11734 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 09:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA20581; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 08:58:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20417 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 08:55:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.99] (pm3shep2-163-99.intrepid.net [209.190.163.99]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA31924 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 09:00:40 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 21:07:04 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Guillermo at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference Oct 1-3, Charles Town, WV Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1835 Dear friends! Finally(!), a confirmation that our good friend Guillermo Romero Ibarrola of Comala, Colima, MEXICO will be able to come to Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference Oct 1-3 in Charles Town, WV where he will be an honored guest. I salute his energy, his focus and his curiosity regarding biodynamics and this work we are all, in some fashion, drawn to. A conference is coming together of the energies of those who know and those who want to know. I really appreciate all of you who are setting aside the demands of your daily life or making deep sacrifices in order to come and share with the rest of us. Every year we rediscover that at this event, as at Hugh Lovel's event, that what we take away with us isn't so much a speaker's insights or handouts, or a packet of heirloom seeds and a damp cloth of slips, or a new prep, but an awareness of a new energy and focus that comes from realizing that while, as Woody often says, gardening is a lonely occupation, we do have a strong, loving community 'out there' in the world. It's nice to absorb the warmth of that common point of view and common values at these annual gatherings. Like it says on the web page "Facing together like this, we finally realize we are facing in the same direction." Thanks, Guillermo, for the sacrifices you have made to come and share your light with us! -Allan Balliett csa@claymont.org =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 26 19:30:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18179 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 19:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA26400; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 19:25:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out1.statecom.net (smtp-out1.statecom.net [204.116.183.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26232 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 19:22:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (dialin0544c.carol.net [208.238.200.155]) by smtp-out1.statecom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA27089 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 19:28:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990926193320.006b6aa4@pop.carol.net> X-Sender: dbaird@pop.carol.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 19:33:20 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: dick baird Subject: Re: Where I've Been In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1836 At 10:23 PM 9/24/99 -0500, you wrote: >Dear BD NOW! List, > >For some time now my computer has been in the shop, dysfunctional. The hard >drive failed. Weeks worth of fun. In the midst of this my telephone company >was bought out and my e-mail address was changed. I've lost all my >addresses, so if you want to send my your address I'll re-build my files. >In the meantime please note my new e-mail address. > >Sincerely, >Hugh Lovel > >Hey Hugh, sorry to read about your computer difficulties. Here is Dick's e-mail address: dbaird@carol.net. Hope you all had a great summer. Life at the Baird farm was good and hot and dry this summer. Things are changing as always, mostly for the good. Warm thoughts, Michelle, Dick, the kids, and friends. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 26 22:13:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02135 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 22:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09942; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 22:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09761 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 22:04:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.146] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.146]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FIP006LH70UBL@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 21:00:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 20:46:07 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Guillermo at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference Oct 1-3, Charles Town, WV In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id WAA09764 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1837 >Dear friends! > >Finally(!), a confirmation that our good friend Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >of Comala, Colima, MEXICO will be able to come to Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic >Food and Farming Conference Oct 1-3 in Charles Town, WV where he will be an >honored guest. > >I salute his energy, his focus and his curiosity regarding biodynamics and >this work we are all, in some fashion, drawn to. > >A conference is coming together of the energies of those who know and those >who want to know. I really appreciate all of you who are setting aside the >demands of your daily life or making deep sacrifices in order to come and >share with the rest of us. > >Every year we rediscover that at this event, as at Hugh Lovel's event, that >what we take away with us isn't so much a speaker's insights or handouts, >or a packet of heirloom seeds and a damp cloth of slips, or a new prep, but >an awareness of a new energy and focus that comes from realizing that >while, as Woody often says, gardening is a lonely occupation, we do have a >strong, loving community 'out there' in the world. It's nice to absorb the >warmth of that common point of view and common values at these annual >gatherings. Like it says on the web page "Facing together like this, we >finally realize we are facing in the same direction." > >Thanks, Guillermo, for the sacrifices you have made to come and share your >light with us! > >-Allan Balliett >csa@claymont.org Dear Allan: Thanks to your commitement and generosity I will have the priviledge to be with you all and I will finally get to meet old time (virtual) friends. You have nothing to thank, nor it is a sacrifice to me, it is my entire pleasure. How could I miss meeting great people, learning about cosmic pipes, sonic bloom, turkey tractors, small scale grain production, 4 season greenhouse management, BD new preps, herbs, traditional nutrition, etc. ? All in one place!. In addition, eating the great food you will have, visiting J.G. Benett founded Claymont Courts, and above all sharing some time with you, Maura and your family. Belive me, I am the one who feels excited, honored and thankfull. See you all there ! Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Sep 26 23:29:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03605 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14377; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA14235 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:19:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.37] (pm3shep1-163-23.intrepid.net [209.190.163.23]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA23007 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:24:38 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 11:31:03 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Where I've Been Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1838 >Dear BD NOW! List, > >For some time now my computer has been in the shop, dysfunctional. The hard >drive failed. Weeks worth of fun. In the midst of this my telephone company >was bought out and my e-mail address was changed. I've lost all my >addresses, so if you want to send my your address I'll re-build my files. >In the meantime please note my new e-mail address. > >Sincerely, >Hugh Lovel Great to have you back, Hugh! Toss out that old Macintosh and start using one of Lorraine's boxes to telecommute! See you Thursday! -Allan csa@claymont.org =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 27 02:15:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA07612 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 02:15:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA23366; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 02:02:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net ([205.230.159.32]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA23180 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 01:59:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.211.141.219] (wt-d6-219.wt.net [208.211.141.219]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA13336 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 01:26:02 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 01:26:02 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: lamu@pop3.wt.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Andy Richker Subject: Re: Agnihotra with Victor Landa Oct 2 at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference, Charles Town, WV Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1839 Allan, Are they/you going to be selling the kit to do the agnihotra process. The pyramid is the main thing. I can get cow dung (although some B-D wdould be great), ghee and rice. Thanks. I really look forward to seeing how the process is done. Andy >Victor Landa, founder and manager of Spritual Foods, a service project of >Shanti Yoga, and probably the man who has done the most to get BD foods on >the tables of America, will be conducting Agnihotra at 7:10 am on October 2 >at Claymont Court, Charles Town, WV. (Richard Powers will be conducting >Agnihotra on the morning of Oct 3.) > >On that same day, Victor will give a two hour presentation to conference >attendees on Spiritual Food for the New Millenium. (Other events conference >events will be occuring at the same time, most notably, a pasture walk with >Joel Salatin.) > >Conference info is at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf > >Thanks > >-Allan Balliett From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 27 07:12:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09539 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 07:12:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA02707; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 07:05:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA02644 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 07:03:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.37] (pm3shep2-163-91.intrepid.net [209.190.163.91]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA29012 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 07:08:48 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 19:15:02 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Agnihotra with Victor Landa Oct 2 at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference, Charles Town, WV Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1840 >Allan, > >Are they/you going to be selling the kit to do the agnihotra process. The >pyramid is the main thing. I can get cow dung (although some B-D wdould be >great), ghee and rice. Thanks. I really look forward to seeing how the >process is done. > >Andy > Andy - Yes, you can use those nice little 'fruit leather trays' in a walmart food dryer on you kitchen table to prepare cow dung for agnihotra. The tough thing is trying to dry a years worth before someone else in the house trys to stop you! Richard Powers usually brings plenty of copperware to the conference. Bring your checkbook, I'm sure he'll be happy to outfit you. Glad your coming this year! Looking forward to seeing you! -Allan csa@claymont.org From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 27 07:19:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09590 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 07:19:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA03106; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 07:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA02980 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 07:10:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.37] (pm3shep2-163-91.intrepid.net [209.190.163.91]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA29765 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 07:15:15 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 19:21:43 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Agnihotra with Victor Landa Oct 2 at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference, Charles Town, WV Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1841 I should add that Victor, a very busy man, has decided to come to the conference on October 3. What this most likely means is that Victor will be working with Richard Powers to conduct agnihotra precisely at sunrise that morning. Later -Allan Balliett csa@claymont.org =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 27 16:06:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19825 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:06:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25745; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:04:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA25623 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:03:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip031.computer.net [140.186.252.31]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA05506 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:02:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:00:59 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: September 26, 1999 - October 02, 1999 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id QAA25624 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1842 Calendar of the Soul [September 26, 1999 - October 02, 1999] Michaelmas (September 29-October 5) O Nature, your maternal life I bear within the essence of my will. And my will's fiery energy Shall steel my spirit striving, That sense of self springs forth from it To hold me in myself. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Natur, dein mütterliches Sein, Ich trage es in meinem Willenswesen; Und meines Willens Feuermacht, Sie stählet meines Geistes Triebe, Dass sie gebären Selbstgefühl, Zu tragen mich in mir. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+26 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Sep 27 16:23:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20191 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA27693; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:21:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27513; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.37] (pm3shep2-163-85.intrepid.net [209.190.163.85]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA06895; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:16:16 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 04:22:38 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: "Seeds of Change" founder Howard Shapiro to Speak at Biodynamic Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1843 Editorial Contact Allan Balliett (304) 724-6763 csa@claymont.org "Deep Ecologist" Howard Shapiro to speak at Charles Town, WV Food and Farming Conference Oct 1-3 For Immediate Release September 26, 1999 Howard-yana Shapiro, one of the world's most knowledgeable and inspirational speakers on biodiversity and the value of Nature's gene pool, will keynote the Fourth Annual Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference at Claymont Court on Friday, October 1. Howard-yana Shapiro is the vice president of agriculture and purchasing at Seeds of Change, the organic seed and organic food company that has been influential in expanding public awareness of the importance of protecting open-pollinated seeds for food crops and for publicizing the dangers of genetically modified foods. Since 1968, he has been involved with systematic sustainable gardening/farming with native, traditional and commercial agriculture groups in the United States, Latin America, Asia and Europe. He is a certified organic farmer, organic processor / seed cleaner and organic orchard keeper in El Guique, New Mexico, on the banks of the Rio Grande. A two time Ford Foundation fellow and Fulbright scholar to Italy, he was affiliated with graduate school education for 16 years. As a graduate faculty member he was awarded a research award from Louisiana State University, where he worked in Kyoto, Japan with Kichizaemon Raku, a 15th generation Raku Master and began a long appreciation for the art of the Japanese garden. He has worked continuously during the past 25 years in Mexico where he is a respected expert on the agriculture of Oaxaca. He is currently working on sustainable agriculture projects with government and non government agencies in Latin America, South America, the India sub-continent and various sites in the former Soviet Union. He is co-author of the forthcoming book from Bantam Dell Doubleday: Gardening for the Future of the Earth. Fourth Time Around for Regional Organic Farming Conference ========================================================== Biodynamics is America's oldest systematic approach to organic gardening. It was developed in Europe in the 1920's by Rudolf Steiner, the founder of Waldorf Schools. As conventional agricultural science becomes more aware and accepting of the complex interdependencies that exist in Nature, the once arcane-appearing Biodynamic approach (which considers the positions of celestial objects not just for planting, but for pruning, cultivation and harvesting and also uses specialty 'composts' to 'energize' the top soil) has become attractive to a growing number of people, particularly those working with herbs and grapes. The overall theme of this conference ("Regenerative Agriculture and Traditional Nutrition") is drawn from a recent reading of the Pulitzer Prize winning "Guns, Germs and Steel," a book which highlights the co-evolution of the human race with cultivated plants. The conference, while full of hands-on workshops which will be helpful to any gardener seriously interested in a non-toxic approach to raising food or ornamentals, will illuminate why modern choices in cultivars and food preservation methods have dangerously reduced the stamina of the human race. The conference is held on the 350-acre organic estate outside of Charles Town, WV, home of the Washington mansion "Claymont" which still sports the remnants of the formal garden established by Victorian-era author, Frank L. Stockton, when he was the 'plantations' owner. This is a non-profit endeavor, sponsored by the Claymont Farm CSA, the Claymont Society, and the Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association of America. Who Should Attend This conference is of interest to anyone who uses plants for food, fuel or fiber, be they health conscious consumer, gardener, or commercial farmer. The Following Topics will be Discussed: ====================================== BIODYNAMICS The Biodynamic Preparations (Hugh Courtney) What is Biodynamics? (Hugh Lovel) Horn Clay and the Cosmic Pipe (Hugh Lovel) ECOLOGY "Gardening for the Future of the Earth" (Howard Shapiro (Seeds of Change)) FARM ECONOMICS Relational Marketing (Joel Salatin) Community Supported Agriculture (Carole and Steve Moore) GARDENING/HORTICULTURE The Four Season Passive Solar Greenhouse (Steve Moore) Small Scale Small Grain Production (Eugene Canales (Ferrari Tractor, CIE) Using Particle Sprays (Gary Puterka/Mike Glenn (USDA Fruit Research)) Post Harvest IPM (Charlie Wilson (USDA Fruit Research)) Orchard Floor IPM (Mark Brown (USDA Fruit Research)) Sonic Bloom: the Ultimate Foliar (Dan Carlson) HERBALISM Herbs and Seed Saving (Vinnie McKinney (Elixir Farm Botanicals) Preparing Herbal Tinctures (Jimmy Foltz (Peace in the Valley Herb Farm) HUMAN HEALTH AND NUTRITION Traditional Nutrition (Sally Fallon) "Diet that Works" (Andrea Huff) LIVESTOCK Chicken and Turkey Tractors (Andy Lee ("The Chicken Tractor") Rotational Grazing Pasture Walks (Joel Salatin) SOIL HEALTH Soil Life Foodweb (Jim Barlow) Pasture Health (Jerry Brunetti) SUBTLE ENERGIES "Everyone Can Dowse" (Joey Korn) "Agnihotra: The Vedic Atmospheric Cleanser" (Richard Powers) "Radionics For Life" (Lorraine Cahill) To enhance the experience of quality food, Chef Collaborative 2000's Peter Berley of NYC's Angelica Kitchen is preparing all meals on-site of Organic ingredients. Retreat-style lodging is available on-site for modest expense. For more information, please contact me, Allan Balliett, at (304) 724-6763 or email csa@claymont.org (Also see http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf) From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Mon Sep 27 16:27:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20251 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28044; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:24:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27513; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.37] (pm3shep2-163-85.intrepid.net [209.190.163.85]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA06895; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:16:16 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 04:22:38 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: "Seeds of Change" founder Howard Shapiro to Speak at Biodynamic Conference Reply-To: igg@igg.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1844 Editorial Contact Allan Balliett (304) 724-6763 csa@claymont.org "Deep Ecologist" Howard Shapiro to speak at Charles Town, WV Food and Farming Conference Oct 1-3 For Immediate Release September 26, 1999 Howard-yana Shapiro, one of the world's most knowledgeable and inspirational speakers on biodiversity and the value of Nature's gene pool, will keynote the Fourth Annual Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference at Claymont Court on Friday, October 1. Howard-yana Shapiro is the vice president of agriculture and purchasing at Seeds of Change, the organic seed and organic food company that has been influential in expanding public awareness of the importance of protecting open-pollinated seeds for food crops and for publicizing the dangers of genetically modified foods. Since 1968, he has been involved with systematic sustainable gardening/farming with native, traditional and commercial agriculture groups in the United States, Latin America, Asia and Europe. He is a certified organic farmer, organic processor / seed cleaner and organic orchard keeper in El Guique, New Mexico, on the banks of the Rio Grande. A two time Ford Foundation fellow and Fulbright scholar to Italy, he was affiliated with graduate school education for 16 years. As a graduate faculty member he was awarded a research award from Louisiana State University, where he worked in Kyoto, Japan with Kichizaemon Raku, a 15th generation Raku Master and began a long appreciation for the art of the Japanese garden. He has worked continuously during the past 25 years in Mexico where he is a respected expert on the agriculture of Oaxaca. He is currently working on sustainable agriculture projects with government and non government agencies in Latin America, South America, the India sub-continent and various sites in the former Soviet Union. He is co-author of the forthcoming book from Bantam Dell Doubleday: Gardening for the Future of the Earth. Fourth Time Around for Regional Organic Farming Conference ========================================================== Biodynamics is America's oldest systematic approach to organic gardening. It was developed in Europe in the 1920's by Rudolf Steiner, the founder of Waldorf Schools. As conventional agricultural science becomes more aware and accepting of the complex interdependencies that exist in Nature, the once arcane-appearing Biodynamic approach (which considers the positions of celestial objects not just for planting, but for pruning, cultivation and harvesting and also uses specialty 'composts' to 'energize' the top soil) has become attractive to a growing number of people, particularly those working with herbs and grapes. The overall theme of this conference ("Regenerative Agriculture and Traditional Nutrition") is drawn from a recent reading of the Pulitzer Prize winning "Guns, Germs and Steel," a book which highlights the co-evolution of the human race with cultivated plants. The conference, while full of hands-on workshops which will be helpful to any gardener seriously interested in a non-toxic approach to raising food or ornamentals, will illuminate why modern choices in cultivars and food preservation methods have dangerously reduced the stamina of the human race. The conference is held on the 350-acre organic estate outside of Charles Town, WV, home of the Washington mansion "Claymont" which still sports the remnants of the formal garden established by Victorian-era author, Frank L. Stockton, when he was the 'plantations' owner. This is a non-profit endeavor, sponsored by the Claymont Farm CSA, the Claymont Society, and the Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association of America. Who Should Attend This conference is of interest to anyone who uses plants for food, fuel or fiber, be they health conscious consumer, gardener, or commercial farmer. The Following Topics will be Discussed: ====================================== BIODYNAMICS The Biodynamic Preparations (Hugh Courtney) What is Biodynamics? (Hugh Lovel) Horn Clay and the Cosmic Pipe (Hugh Lovel) ECOLOGY "Gardening for the Future of the Earth" (Howard Shapiro (Seeds of Change)) FARM ECONOMICS Relational Marketing (Joel Salatin) Community Supported Agriculture (Carole and Steve Moore) GARDENING/HORTICULTURE The Four Season Passive Solar Greenhouse (Steve Moore) Small Scale Small Grain Production (Eugene Canales (Ferrari Tractor, CIE) Using Particle Sprays (Gary Puterka/Mike Glenn (USDA Fruit Research)) Post Harvest IPM (Charlie Wilson (USDA Fruit Research)) Orchard Floor IPM (Mark Brown (USDA Fruit Research)) Sonic Bloom: the Ultimate Foliar (Dan Carlson) HERBALISM Herbs and Seed Saving (Vinnie McKinney (Elixir Farm Botanicals) Preparing Herbal Tinctures (Jimmy Foltz (Peace in the Valley Herb Farm) HUMAN HEALTH AND NUTRITION Traditional Nutrition (Sally Fallon) "Diet that Works" (Andrea Huff) LIVESTOCK Chicken and Turkey Tractors (Andy Lee ("The Chicken Tractor") Rotational Grazing Pasture Walks (Joel Salatin) SOIL HEALTH Soil Life Foodweb (Jim Barlow) Pasture Health (Jerry Brunetti) SUBTLE ENERGIES "Everyone Can Dowse" (Joey Korn) "Agnihotra: The Vedic Atmospheric Cleanser" (Richard Powers) "Radionics For Life" (Lorraine Cahill) To enhance the experience of quality food, Chef Collaborative 2000's Peter Berley of NYC's Angelica Kitchen is preparing all meals on-site of Organic ingredients. Retreat-style lodging is available on-site for modest expense. For more information, please contact me, Allan Balliett, at (304) 724-6763 or email csa@claymont.org (Also see http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 28 10:18:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06455 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:18:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08815; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:12:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phoenix.edc.org (phoenix.edc.org [155.38.10.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08226 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:07:15 -0400 (EDT) From: kcarruth@edc.org Received: from ccmail.edc.org (ccmail.edc.org [155.38.10.10]) by phoenix.edc.org (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA06529 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ccMail by ccmail.edc.org (IMA Internet Exchange 2.12 Enterprise) id 003104D8; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:03:52 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:01:17 -0400 Message-ID: <003104D8.3176@edc.org> Subject: women and environment discussion group To: bdnow@envirolink.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1845 An invitation to share your perspectives: TELL THE UNITED NATIONS YOUR VIEWS AND EXPERIENCE! Join the Working Group to Strengthen Women's Role in Environmental Management In 1995, at the Fourth World Conference on Women, delegates from 189 countries endorsed the Beijing Platform for Action, which called upon governments, the international community and civil society to take action in 12 critical areas of concern. The Platform identified "Women and Environment" as one of the critical areas. >From 6 September - 15 October 1999, WomenWatch is holding an Internet Working Group to discuss and develop measures and activities to promote active and equal participation among women and men in decision-making bodies for sustainable development. The working group will discuss: * Policies, legislation, strategies and partnerships that have been successful in furthering women's and men's equality * Case studies, best practices and other examples of successful government and civil society efforts * Obstacles that remain and what still needs to be done In June 2000, the UN General Assembly in New York will meet to review whether governments, international organizations, non-governmental organizations, and the private sector have fulfilled the commitments about women and the environment made at the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing. The Women and Economy Working Group will feed into the UN General Assembly's assessment of the progress since Beijing. Furthermore, the results of the Working Group will feed directly into a one-day workshop that will be organized during the third Conference of the Parties of the Convention to Combat Desertification (Recife, Brazil, November 1999). HOW TO JOIN To join the Women and Environment Working Group, send an e-mail to: majordomo@mail.edc.org Do not enter a subject. In the body of the message, type the text: SUBSCRIBE women-enviro Do not put anything after women-enviro. You will receive a Welcome Letter to the Working Group. FOR FURTHER INFORMATION For further information about , please contact: Janice Brodman EDC janiceb@edc.org ABOUT WOMENWATCH WomenWatch is the UN Internet gateway to global information about women's concerns, progress and equality. It was initiated by the UN Division for the Advancement of Women, the United Nations Development Fund for Women and the International Research and Training Institute for the Advancement of Women. WomenWatch is currently an interagency activity with active participation from many UN organizations. WomenWatch is located on the Internet at www.un.org/womenwatch. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 28 12:47:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09337 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 12:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24483; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 12:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24027 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 12:42:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.72] (pm3shep1-163-34.intrepid.net [209.190.163.34]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10843 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 12:42:40 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 00:49:07 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Biodynamics on the Air Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1846 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 28 13:01:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09622 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 13:01:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26414; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 13:00:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26027 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 12:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.72] (pm3shep1-163-34.intrepid.net [209.190.163.34]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA14058 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 12:57:40 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 01:04:05 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Biodynamics on the Air Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1847 Let's try that again: I'll be on the ZOH SHOW (21st Century Radio) at 2pm today. You can catch the broadcast on a local affiliate of the Liberty Works Radio Network ( http://www.libertyworksradio.com/stations_lwrn.htm ) or listen to it on the web at http://www.wcbn.com at 2pm EDT. Topic, of course, is BIODYNAMICS. Hope you can tune in and even more so hope that you will call in your questions (and answers! :-) Later -Allan Balliett csa@claymont.org From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 28 19:52:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA19095 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 19:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA15998; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 19:49:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA15410 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 19:47:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.72] (pm3shep1-163-21.intrepid.net [209.190.163.21]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA04763 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 19:47:28 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 07:53:55 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: ADMIN: Biodynamics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1848 >From: "Robin Boom" >To: "Allan Balliett" >Cc: >Subject: Biodynamics >Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 23:47:04 +0100 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 > >> >> BIODYNAMICS >> The Biodynamic Preparations (Hugh Courtney) >> What is Biodynamics? (Hugh Lovel) >> Horn Clay and the Cosmic Pipe (Hugh Lovel) >> > SUBTLE ENERGIES >> "Everyone Can Dowse" (Joey Korn) >> "Agnihotra: The Vedic Atmospheric Cleanser" (Richard Powers) >> "Radionics For Life" (Lorraine Cahill) >> > >I hate to sound too cynical and I'm bound to offend some on this forum who >take this stuff for real, but I fail to see how intelligent modern-day >farming people can really be taken in by this sort of mumbo-jumbo. > >I am a zealot for low chemical farming and using natural products where >possible and encourage people who are going organics to do so as much as >possible, but I also have a passion to see the organic movement rescued from >the leather-sandal brigade who frighten off mainstream farmers from >considering organic farming because of their crazy Rudolf Steiner ideas. > >Burying manure inside a cowhorn to draw in soil 'dymnamics', then watering >it down a million times and spraying it on as fertilizer is all magic and >mystery. >Since Steiners day science has discovered the real dynamics of the soil, all >the living bacteria and fungi that we kill off in high chemical farming. A >healthy soil should have 20 million of the little critters in a teaspoon of >dirt.. > >As for 'Cosmic pipes and Vedic atmospheric cleansers'.... the mind boggles!! >We know the significance of the sun and moon and light and dark phases on >plants, but all the reincarnation nonsense and life-forces from >inter-planetary sources and its influence in nature makes me wonder if these >people don't spend 3 hours each day sitting cross-legged on the floor >sucking their thumb with their eyes closed meditating on and absorbing the >life forces radiating from the consternation of Andromeda. > >Lets get real and smell the roses.....;-) > >Robin Boom CPAg > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Sep 28 20:40:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20111 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 20:40:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA02099; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 20:38:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.vphos.net (ns2.vphos.net [207.102.129.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA01406 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 20:35:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net (ts3-7.creston.kootenay.com [206.108.203.71]) by ns2.vphos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA18732; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 17:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001b01bf0a12$81a49800$47cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: Cc: Subject: Robin's Skepticism Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 17:34:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1849 Ah, Robin: You wrote: <> No offense taken, but many of us will wonder if you're basing your skepticism solely on the listing Allan Balliett gave of his conference topics, and if you've ever actually SEEN Biodynamics [not to mention dowsers, cosmic pipes, Agnihotra] at work, or FELT the vitality of a Biodynamic farm. As BD folk we place a high value on the personal experience, on direct perception...understanding that goes well beyond the intellectual prejudices we are conditioned toward by conventional education. As for those << 20 million of the little critters in a teaspoon of dirt..>> if you actually go and look--take your microscope by all means!--at a Biodynamic farm there in the UK (there are lots of them) you'll find all the little critters you want in the soil there, soil that's been enhanced with the Biodynamic preparations. And if you're lucky you'll get a taste of a BD carrot or cabbage that'll will knock your socks off. Woody From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 29 00:00:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA23559 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA20414; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 23:57:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20321 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 23:57:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.67.166] (r-67.24.alltel.net [166.102.67.24]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id WAA19986 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:56:59 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:56:59 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: uai@alltel.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990926193320.006b6aa4@pop.carol.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Where I've Been Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1850 >At 10:23 PM 9/24/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Dear BD NOW! List, >> >>For some time now my computer has been in the shop, dysfunctional. The hard >>drive failed. Weeks worth of fun. In the midst of this my telephone company >>was bought out and my e-mail address was changed. I've lost all my >>addresses, so if you want to send my your address I'll re-build my files. >>In the meantime please note my new e-mail address. >> >>Sincerely, >>Hugh Lovel >> >>Hey Hugh, sorry to read about your computer difficulties. Here is Dick's >e-mail address: dbaird@carol.net. Hope you all had a great summer. Life >at the Baird farm was good and hot and dry this summer. Things are >changing as always, mostly for the good. Warm thoughts, Michelle, Dick, >the kids, and friends. Thanks for the address, Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 29 02:02:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA24851 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 02:02:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA00068; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 02:00:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA29943 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 01:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 63.23.33.6 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:57:21 -0700 Message-ID: <001d01bf0a40$48d0ee60$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Robin's Critique Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 23:02:59 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1851 Dear Robin, A couple of observations: I'll admit the sound of 'cosmic pipes and atmoshperic cleansers' does stir up odd images for the western mind. Although both of these particular ideas are not from Rudolf Steiner at all and not usually considered a part of biodynamics, I certainly defend the right of these folks to express their observations, share their experiences and offer their hopes in our many biodynamic forums. We are an open-minded group of people and wish to further spiritual approaches to land stewardship, farming and food production - not just food without chemicals. Many methods may in fact further such a goal. I can understand, that some people can feel that such talk (of cosmic pipes and the like) is not serious and will never amount to much. I, myself, have to shake my head a some of the things that are considered too. But, if we look at how progress is made, how innovation takes place, crazy ideas are necessary. It is a part of the process of change, of discovery, of renewal. Anyone in business, for example, knows that today's crazy ideas are often tomorrow's truth's and trends. As for crazy ideas, you cite science as somehow having now found the ultimate truth (about soil for instance). Let me share, that I often think about the fact that it was materialistic science in the first place that promoted the abuse of the land and the deterioration of our resources. Science today does little to promote a healthy agriculture. Very little. It further's mostly high input, high technology, high finance agriculture, not healthy alternatives. Certainly science has no monopoly, maybe even no claim at all on furthering positive ecological health in agriculture...It was only very recently that science even turned its attention to the issues of sustainability and ecosystems health...thanks to the sandle-toting crowd by and large who pioneered alternative farming methods out in the fields in a time when that took courage. Dont get me wrong, science can be a good thing (I myself am not only a farmer, but an educator and scientist by training). And it is slowly turning its focus to things that matter. Only slowly. But science alone cannot change the tides of modern agriculture, it takes more, it takes the power of personal initiative, the belief in better approaches, the imagination and inspiration of many, many (and often diverse) people. As for the various spiritual forces that we seek to understand and work with in biodynamics, let me say this: such an effort is not without dangers (including weird ideas), but should we find, over time, that these spiritual forces can indeed be truly identified, worked with and understood, something major, a real turning point in humanity (and science) would have been achieved. Nothing worth working for is without dangers, pitfalls, extremes and challenges. Most of us involved with biodynamics are very individualized (polite for eccentric) in one way or another, but we share a belief in the reality of a spiritual dimension to life that permeates nature and a hope that through our various (if at times crazy-seeming to others) ways to connect with and work with these forces, we can indeed revitalize a dying, cold and diseased agriculture. We have more than just faith, we have hope that our some of our crazy ideas will in fact work and be of positive service to the Earth and humanity. Besides, it would be a long and lonely wait for science to come around and help us revitalize agriculture. respectfully, Andrew Christopher Lorand Biodynamic farmer and gardener with a Ph.D.from Penn State University's College of Agricultural Sciences From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 29 04:09:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA26089 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 04:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA04664; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 04:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA04486 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 04:03:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-79.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.79]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA12652 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 18:03:31 +1000 Message-ID: <007801bf0a50$d325e240$47431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Biodynamics on the Air Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 18:00:25 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1852 Dear Allan and all at the Mid Atlantic BD Conference. All the best for a wonderful inspiring conference. Wish I was there, hopefully next year! We will be looking forward to hearing how it all goes, Gwenda Robb is going to take copious notes , she tells me, but of course meeting everyone, as Guillermo says -- all our "virtual" friends would be so exciting. Enjoy your special times together and be inspired for even better BD work in the year ahead, Love from Cheryl Kemp in Australia. -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, 29 September 1999 3:00 am Subject: Biodynamics on the Air >Let's try that again: > >I'll be on the ZOH SHOW (21st Century Radio) at 2pm today. You can catch >the broadcast on a local affiliate of the Liberty Works Radio Network ( >http://www.libertyworksradio.com/stations_lwrn.htm ) or listen to it on the >web at http://www.wcbn.com at 2pm EDT. > >Topic, of course, is BIODYNAMICS. Hope you can tune in and even more so >hope that you will call in your questions (and answers! :-) > >Later > >-Allan Balliett >csa@claymont.org > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 29 06:07:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA26896 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 06:07:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA09285; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 06:05:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA09152 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 06:03:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.113] (pm3shep3-163-149.intrepid.net [209.190.163.149]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA25035 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 06:03:17 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 18:09:32 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: RE: ADMIN: Biodynamics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1853 Robin, I couldn't agree more, and will probably stir up a hornets nest by suggesting that there could be some pretty exciting synergies between organics and GMO's. There are those who will suggest that GMO's are manipulating organisms in a un-natural way, but I would suggest that agriculture is the manipulation of organisms in a un-natural way. By this I do not advocate the release of GMO's in a uncontrolled way, but like Robin I am keen to see a reduction in the use of relatively "un-targeted" chemical agents, and biotechnology seems to be the only viable long term path to achieve this. Emotional knee jerks that condemn GMO's out of hand will not turn back the clock, but wider society will manage to get good controls in place on GMO's if the debate is rational. Thanks for listening to a member of the work boot brigade. ------------------------------------------------------------------ David Mortimer - IAMA South East- Customer Services - Seed 31-33 Beverage Drive (Locked Bag 29), Tullamarine 3043 Phone: +61 (03) 9927 5217 Fax: +61 (03) 9335 1871 e-mail: dmortimer@iama.com.au Web page: http://www.iama.com.au/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ -----Original Message----- From: Robin Boom [mailto:robin@boomr.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, 29 September 1999 8:47 To: Allan Balliett Cc: graze-l@taranaki.ac.nz Subject: Biodynamics > > BIODYNAMICS > The Biodynamic Preparations (Hugh Courtney) > What is Biodynamics? (Hugh Lovel) > Horn Clay and the Cosmic Pipe (Hugh Lovel) > > SUBTLE ENERGIES > "Everyone Can Dowse" (Joey Korn) > "Agnihotra: The Vedic Atmospheric Cleanser" (Richard Powers) > "Radionics For Life" (Lorraine Cahill) > I hate to sound too cynical and I'm bound to offend some on this forum who take this stuff for real, but I fail to see how intelligent modern-day farming people can really be taken in by this sort of mumbo-jumbo. I am a zealot for low chemical farming and using natural products where possible and encourage people who are going organics to do so as much as possible, but I also have a passion to see the organic movement rescued from the leather-sandal brigade who frighten off mainstream farmers from considering organic farming because of their crazy Rudolf Steiner ideas. Burying manure inside a cowhorn to draw in soil 'dymnamics', then watering it down a million times and spraying it on as fertilizer is all magic and mystery. Since Steiners day science has discovered the real dynamics of the soil, all the living bacteria and fungi that we kill off in high chemical farming. A healthy soil should have 20 million of the little critters in a teaspoon of dirt.. As for 'Cosmic pipes and Vedic atmospheric cleansers'.... the mind boggles!! We know the significance of the sun and moon and light and dark phases on plants, but all the reincarnation nonsense and life-forces from inter-planetary sources and its influence in nature makes me wonder if these people don't spend 3 hours each day sitting cross-legged on the floor sucking their thumb with their eyes closed meditating on and absorbing the life forces radiating from the consternation of Andromeda. Lets get real and smell the roses.....;-) Robin Boom CPAg ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify IAMA ISG on 1300 363 023. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned for known computer viruses. ********************************************************************** =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 29 09:21:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29142 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:21:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18963; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:19:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nygate.undp.org (nygate.undp.org [192.124.42.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18737 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:16:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from umka.undp.org (umka.undp.org [192.124.42.40]) by nygate.undp.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.5) with ESMTP id JAA23895 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:16:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inet01.hq.undp.org ([127.0.0.1]) by umka.undp.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAACA2 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:16:49 -0400 Received: from undp.org ([165.65.10.98]) by inet01.hq.undp.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAAB85 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:12:20 -0400 Message-ID: <37F21002.C620F2AD@undp.org> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:11:30 -0400 From: "David Fazzino" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Robin's Skepticism References: <001b01bf0a12$81a49800$47cb6cce@netacc.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------530EF8315E82999A64EB86DB" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1854 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------530EF8315E82999A64EB86DB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Woody that Robin is putting too much faith in what her senses tell her - indeed this method of explaining the world is indeed a very narrow one. There are many ways to knowing and the western scientific paradigm offers simply one way of doing this. Let me underline here that I am not defending biodynamics per se, but rather imploring all of us to explore different paths to knowledge. These statements stem from my recent reading of the Spring 1998 issue of Cultural Survival Quartery, "Reclaiming Native Education". Best to you all, David --------------530EF8315E82999A64EB86DB Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for david.fazzino@undp.org Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: david.fazzino@undp.org n: ;david.fazzino@undp.org email;internet: david.fazzino@undp.org x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------530EF8315E82999A64EB86DB-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 29 10:59:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01208 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:59:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27943; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:56:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com (imo-d02.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.34]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27836 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:56:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Snarzlak@aol.com Received: from Snarzlak@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hXER0E_sWf (4586) for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:55:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8a902a2c.25238264@aol.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:55:32 EDT Subject: Re: Robin's Critique/Andrew's comment To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 22 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1855 Thanks to Andrew for the commentary that helped clear up some important ideas. I missed Robin's original critique, but I assume it had a good dose of healthy skepticism about the experiences and practices of some people's farming practices. Andrew did make a point I would like to clarify a little more for a better understanding of things. Andrew stated; > Let me share, that I often think > about the fact that it > was materialistic science in the first place that promoted the abuse of the > land and the deterioration of our resources. Science today does little to > promote a healthy agriculture. Very little. It further's mostly high input, > high technology, high finance agriculture, not healthy alternatives. > Certainly science has no monopoly, maybe even no claim at all on furthering > positive ecological health in agriculture...It was only very recently that > science even turned its attention to the issues of sustainability and > ecosystems health.. Very true, and yet it needs clarification. The so-called "science" of today, what we commonly think of as the test-tube/lab coat variety of research and new discoveries, is under the yoke and payroll of big business, global corporations, and the like. There is an extreme bias in today's big money funded "science" to discover innovative methods of industrial processes which yield profits and economic gain. This of course is not true science. It is some relative self-interest looking for advantages in the marketplace. It lacks a proper word to describe it. (The job of a gifted linguist would be to drape this concept with the appropriate terminology for a better understanding. Anyone up to the task would certainly be adding to the body of human understanding.) Real science is more harmonious, and that's what I hope to find in this biodynamic group discussion. I would like to say that if anyone in this mailing list is going to talk about cosmic pipes, methods of dowsing or otherwise explore the far-reaches of unprovable "science", you should expect to be scrutinized and critiqued. I think it only fair that if we are going to critique science, that we allow for a clash of opinions to root out the truth, and that means exposing the "errors" in biodynamics as well as the "errors" in big business funded science. Patrick Calistro (student UNH) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 29 11:05:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01360 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28799; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:03:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28383 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:00:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha18s028.d.shentel.net [204.111.21.28]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12022 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:11:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37F22995.BCCFA741@LightExpression.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:00:38 -0400 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ADMIN: Biodynamics References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1856 Robin Boom wrote: >Burying manure inside a cowhorn to draw in soil 'dymnamics', then watering >it down a million times and spraying it on as fertilizer is all magic and >mystery. I do not know if Robin is on this list or not -- I will only say that life is all magic and a mystery. Perhaps soon??? everyone will know.............. In magic....... Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 29 11:36:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01886 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:36:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02107; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:34:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01733 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.203.251]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Wed, 29 Sep 1999 16:31:13 +0100 Message-ID: <002b01bf0a8f$c666f320$70cb2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: <8a902a2c.25238264@aol.com> Subject: Re: Robin's Critique/Andrew's comment Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 16:31:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1857 Patrick - I'll leave better advocates than I am to defend bio-dynamics and other esoteric practices but - while I agree that most of the environment-damaging high-tech practices are driven by corporate greed - we must also accept and acknowledge that conventional science is as dogmatic as any of the rigid religions-of-the-book. No scientist who ever wants a job, a grant or even to publish his/her work dare openly admit to unconventional ideas - ask anyone who has spoken out in favour of psychic phenomena or the more 'acceptable' of the alternative therapies, let alone astrology or Robin's list of way-out practices ! One respondent (was it Hugh?) has it right - you could argue forever and still leave the cynics unmoved; let them see for themselves (in the unlikely event that they could be persuaded to 'waste their time') and at least admit that something has had an effect... Then wait for them to produce an acceptable 'scientific' explanation ! Tony N-S (BSc Hons, PhD, CBiol, F Inst Biol, F Inst Petr) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 29 12:17:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01886 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:36:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02107; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:34:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01733 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.203.251]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Wed, 29 Sep 1999 16:31:13 +0100 Message-ID: <002b01bf0a8f$c666f320$70cb2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: <8a902a2c.25238264@aol.com> Subject: Re: Robin's Critique/Andrew's comment Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 16:31:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1858 Patrick - I'll leave better advocates than I am to defend bio-dynamics and other esoteric practices but - while I agree that most of the environment-damaging high-tech practices are driven by corporate greed - we must also accept and acknowledge that conventional science is as dogmatic as any of the rigid religions-of-the-book. No scientist who ever wants a job, a grant or even to publish his/her work dare openly admit to unconventional ideas - ask anyone who has spoken out in favour of psychic phenomena or the more 'acceptable' of the alternative therapies, let alone astrology or Robin's list of way-out practices ! One respondent (was it Hugh?) has it right - you could argue forever and still leave the cynics unmoved; let them see for themselves (in the unlikely event that they could be persuaded to 'waste their time') and at least admit that something has had an effect... Then wait for them to produce an acceptable 'scientific' explanation ! Tony N-S (BSc Hons, PhD, CBiol, F Inst Biol, F Inst Petr) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 29 12:45:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03822 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 12:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09554; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 12:42:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09303 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 12:40:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.175]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990929164547.MGCG695.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 04:45:47 +1200 Message-ID: <37F241C5.6769@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 04:43:49 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Admin : Biodynamics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1859 Robin Boom wrote >Burying manure inside a cowhorn to draw in soil 'dymnamics', then watering >it down a million times and spraying it on as fertilizer is all magic and >mystery. >Since Steiners day science has discovered the real dynamics of the soil, all >the living bacteria and fungi that we kill off in high chemical farming. A >healthy soil should have 20 million of the little critters in a teaspoon of >dirt.. Makes me reflect on an experience the other day. While visiting a dairy farm the other day we were inspecting one of the trials we are doing. 1 ha paddock. Half treated as the farm is normally the other half has had 2 sprays of Etherics 1000 ( all BD preps potentised) to way past 1 ppm over two months. On the BD side clover was 2x the size and growing vigourously, there were 12 vigourous worms in a small spade spit, root growth was twice as deep and everything looked green. On the other which a month ago had Sulphate of ammonia applied - 3 sick worms, grass looked yellowish and energetically choking. The Dr of ag. and two vets present were scratching their heads but the plants told the story, the smallest quantities have it. Check out "Agriculture of Tomorrow" by Koliskos - Robin. cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 29 18:16:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12820 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 18:16:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15779; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 18:14:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web220.mail.yahoo.com (web220.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.120]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15464 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 18:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19990929221049.7773.rocketmail@web220.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [128.143.38.152] by web220.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 15:10:49 PDT Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 15:10:49 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce ritchie Subject: Re: Robin's Critique/Andrew's comment To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1860 --dear all (robin especially), I have thought about the same question, and even gotten some raised eyebrows from a friend who happens to be a biologist at the university of virginia, in fact formerly the head of the whole department. I have my own reactions to the cosmic pipe and other ideas. Through it all I try to keep one thing in mind, and that is a bible verse that I cannot quite locate at the moment. The verse says something to the effect that you will know the righteous 'by their fruits.' Maybe I could add vegetables! Last year at the bd conference I tasted and tested the bd pears that Hugh Lovel brought along, and though I could not now remember the actual brix number, I know that it was above the 'excellent' number that was listed with the refractometer, while I have NEVER found any fruit or vegetable from a conventional grocery store that tested above 'poor' or 'average'. The main question for any farmer is this. . . Do you want to imitate those with impressive academic credentials and tomes of untested facts, or do you want to imitate those with imperical success? Bruce Ritchie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 29 20:31:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA16286 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 20:31:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA27487; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 20:29:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.Northwest.com (root@northwest.com [204.119.42.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA27428 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 20:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.119.42.35 by mail.Northwest.com with smtp (Linux Smail3.2.0.102 #2) id m11WU70-002eWNC; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 17:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37F2C085.7A8C@lionhrt.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 17:44:37 -0800 From: jacquie ross Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: LionHrt X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1861 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 29 21:16:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17160 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 21:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA01511; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 21:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA01277 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 21:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.151] (pm3shep4-163-200.intrepid.net [209.190.163.200]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA10660 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 21:11:50 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:17:03 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Biodynamics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1862 >From: "Robin Boom" >To: >Subject: Biodynamics >Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 23:19:39 +0100 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 >Sender: owner-graze-l@Vulcan.taranaki.ac.nz >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: "Robin Boom" >Status: U > > I had thought my previous post on this subject may have stirred up a >bit of a hornets nest and certainly it did in the number of private posts >I received, and not all being constructive. Thanks Rick for your lengthy >reply supporting my view. You had not chosen to post it on >graze-l  although I was tempted to, but think thats really your call. >Also thanks David i for your congenial reply, we'll just have to agree to >differ. For those more in the 'hate' mode who weren't prepared to post >onto graze-l for constructive debate.... shame. However for your >information I have been on BD farms back in NZ. One a dairy farmer who is >quietly going broke as production has fallen 30% compared to when he was >farming conventionally. However I don't think his financial demise can be >blamed on biodynamics entirely, because in the Waikato, NZ; all milk goes >into the general pool, but if he could sell his milk as BD milk, then the >extra dollars he would receive for that would more than likely make up >the 30% production drop compared to conventional dairying. Another farm >was a deer farmer client. Deer farming should be about the easiest to >convert to biodynamics, as they don't have the internal parasite >problems to the degree of other stock, and because with the >exception of ragwort, deer eat most weeds when pushed. However this guy >was also going broke, because he couldn't grow enough grass. His pastures >and those of another BD client who was a sheep and cattle farmer were the >worst of my 500 odd pastoral clients in NZ. The latter farmer had the >sickest looking sheep you could find and really the SPCA should have been >called in. His paddocks were full of nodding thistle and ryegrass was >being competed out by browntop, danthonia, ricegrass, Yorkshire Fog, >Sweet vernal and the like. His sheep returned him very little money >because they were bags of bones. On none of these farms did I pick up any >warm-fuzzy spiritual vibes of hear 'cosmic pipes' echoing down the >valleys. However these people were zealots for their watered down cowhorn >'preps' as fertilizer and were even paying out money for them. >I am all for naturally occuring fertilizers such as reactive >phosphate rock, salt and muriate of potash (both of which are banned by >IFOAM because they don't understand the difference between chloride and >chlorine!!), langbeinite, ulexite, gypsum, dolomite, etc, and would >like to see all farmers using them to make clovers grow which look after >the nitrogen side of things plus composts and manures. But if >'preps' are touted as valid fertilizer inputs and all the BD >homeopathic-type remedies the solution to poor stock health, I'm sorry >but my observations lead me to conclude otherwise. I might also add that >internal parasite problems in NZ are probably the worst in the world, due >to our year round grazing and low dry matter post-grazing residuals in an >environment where neither extreme droughts or ice and snow are there to >break the worm/egg cycle. One small correction I would make to my >previous post where I said a healthy soil should have 20 million bacteria >in a teaspoon of dirt. The figure should be 20 billion. In NZ, research >has shown that the improved pasture production from artificial >fertilizers such as Superphosphate has resulted in the build up of humus >and consequently earthworm and soil microbial populations. However a >study done by Massey University several years ago comparing soil biota on >conventional vs organic farms, did find in some biological >properties, the organically farmed soils were superior. If these >organic were BD farms I do not know. I finally put the challenge to those >who E-mailed me and criticized me privately who obviously believe in the >spiritual hocus pocus of Rudolf Steiner philosophy to state your >reasons for farming biodynamically as opposed to organically, on the >list for a good old public debate. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Sep 29 23:35:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19148 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 23:35:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA15421; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 23:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA14982 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 23:29:43 -0400 (EDT) From: NEILLCO@aol.com Received: from NEILLCO@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hRLUsUWJ0_ (4001) for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 23:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3c049c8f.2524330a@aol.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 23:29:14 EDT Subject: Re: Biodynamics To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1863 Interesting debate and Robins experiances adds some new light. I would like to know if Robin considers that the failing BD farms he witnessed would have been more successfull using conventional techniques? BD appears to me to be the grandfather of the more modern Organic method. The main distinction of the two seems to be that BD maintains the use of a mystical, "spiritual" aspect and Organic farming does not. The question seems to be, does a spiritual quality, appropriately administered, improve farming techniques? I seem to remember a study done where plants that were talked to did better than those that were not. The suprising success of Amish farmers and other religious farming groups in the USA may also tend to support the use of a spiritual approach. Randi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 30 02:55:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA22371 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 02:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA29298; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 02:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA29248 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 02:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-15.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.48]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA00288 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 23:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37F306DD.3311159C@ap.net> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 23:44:45 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Biodynamics References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1864 Allan Balliett wrote: > >From: "Robin Boom" > >To: > >Subject: Biodynamics > >Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 23:19:39 +0100 > >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >X-Priority: 3 > >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 > >Sender: owner-graze-l@Vulcan.taranaki.ac.nz > >Precedence: bulk > >Reply-To: "Robin Boom" > >Status: U > > > > I had thought my previous post on this subject may have stirred up a > >bit of a hornets nest and certainly it did in the number of private posts > >I received, and not all being constructive. Thanks Rick for your lengthy > >reply supporting my view. You had not chosen to post it on > >graze-l  although I was tempted to, but think thats really your call. > >Also thanks David i for your congenial reply, we'll just have to agree to > >differ. For those more in the 'hate' mode who weren't prepared to post > >onto graze-l for constructive debate.... shame. However for your > >information I have been on BD farms back in NZ. One a dairy farmer who is > >quietly going broke as production has fallen 30% compared to when he was > >farming conventionally. However I don't think his financial demise can be > >blamed on biodynamics entirely, because in the Waikato, NZ; all milk goes > >into the general pool, but if he could sell his milk as BD milk, then the > >extra dollars he would receive for that would more than likely make up > >the 30% production drop compared to conventional dairying. Another farm > >was a deer farmer client. Deer farming should be about the easiest to > >convert to biodynamics, as they don't have the internal parasite > >problems to the degree of other stock, and because with the > >exception of ragwort, deer eat most weeds when pushed. However this guy > >was also going broke, because he couldn't grow enough grass. His pastures > >and those of another BD client who was a sheep and cattle farmer were the > >worst of my 500 odd pastoral clients in NZ. The latter farmer had the > >sickest looking sheep you could find and really the SPCA should have been > >called in. His paddocks were full of nodding thistle and ryegrass was > >being competed out by browntop, danthonia, ricegrass, Yorkshire Fog, > >Sweet vernal and the like. His sheep returned him very little money > >because they were bags of bones. On none of these farms did I pick up any > >warm-fuzzy spiritual vibes of hear 'cosmic pipes' echoing down the > >valleys. However these people were zealots for their watered down cowhorn > >'preps' as fertilizer and were even paying out money for them. > >I am all for naturally occuring fertilizers such as reactive > >phosphate rock, salt and muriate of potash (both of which are banned by > >IFOAM because they don't understand the difference between chloride and > >chlorine!!), langbeinite, ulexite, gypsum, dolomite, etc, and would > >like to see all farmers using them to make clovers grow which look after > >the nitrogen side of things plus composts and manures. But if > >'preps' are touted as valid fertilizer inputs and all the BD > >homeopathic-type remedies the solution to poor stock health, I'm sorry > >but my observations lead me to conclude otherwise. I might also add that > >internal parasite problems in NZ are probably the worst in the world, due > >to our year round grazing and low dry matter post-grazing residuals in an > >environment where neither extreme droughts or ice and snow are there to > >break the worm/egg cycle. One small correction I would make to my > >previous post where I said a healthy soil should have 20 million bacteria > >in a teaspoon of dirt. The figure should be 20 billion. In NZ, research > >has shown that the improved pasture production from artificial > >fertilizers such as Superphosphate has resulted in the build up of humus > >and consequently earthworm and soil microbial populations. However a > >study done by Massey University several years ago comparing soil biota on > >conventional vs organic farms, did find in some biological > >properties, the organically farmed soils were superior. If these > >organic were BD farms I do not know. I finally put the challenge to those > >who E-mailed me and criticized me privately who obviously believe in the > >spiritual hocus pocus of Rudolf Steiner philosophy to state your > >reasons for farming biodynamically as opposed to organically, on the > >list for a good old public debate. > > Robin: The road is seventy five years long. Words alone cannot convince anybody on either side of the fence. If you genuinely "CARE" for the earth, find a piece of that most precious of farmers' resources "time" and turn part of your earth into a biodynamics test plot. We certainly have experts galore from around the world contributing to this list who have been cordial and helpful to this beginner. Consider again that these folks wouldn't be using biodynamics if it wasn't successful for them. Shakespeare said it a long time ago "there are more things in heaven and earth than in your philosophy Horatio!" Fortune passes everywhere. Cheers :o), David i/whirlderv@ap.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 30 12:18:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01759 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 12:18:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02331; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 12:15:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from medusa.icx.net (medusa.icx.net [206.96.250.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01886 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 12:10:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bcp.gtsduratek.com (max1ag.icx.net [208.134.108.34]) by medusa.icx.net (IDG-2.7/1.3nr) with SMTP id MAA07258 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 12:10:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SEG#u#DOM-Message_Server by bcp.gtsduratek.com with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 12:11:27 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 12:11:07 -0400 From: Kimberlie Cole To: Bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Biodynamics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1865 Randi said, "The suprising success of Amish farmers and other religious farming groups in the USA may also tend to support the use of a spiritual approach." I think Randi is implying that the Amish use "a spiritual approach" in lieu of, not in addition to, conventional techniques. ?? Based on my observation, it is a misconception that the Amish and Mennonites as a whole use techniques that are natural, biodynamic, organic or otherwise non-chemical (after all, they use horses instead of cars, right?). A great number apply conventional chemical pesticides and herbicides. Use GMOs too. I would expect the population of nonchemical to chemical Amish farmers to roughly match the non-Amish ratio. I can't speak for other "religious farming groups". From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 30 13:28:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03127 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10709; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:26:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09814 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-04.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.37]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA29122 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 10:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37F399C9.964E2943@ap.net> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 10:11:37 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re:From another Direction References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1866 We are not out there alone. Spirit is as close as our breath. Some heartening words from Mevlana Jellaludddin RUMI, claimed dead these 700 years but a true Farmer of the heart across the veils of time. LOOK AT LOVE how it tangles with the one fallen in love look at spirit how it fuses with earth giving it new life why are you so busy with this or that or good or bad pay attention to how things blend why talk about all the known and the unknown see how unknown merges into the known why think separately of this life and the next when one is born from the last look at your heart and tongue one feels but deaf and dumb the other speaks in words and signs look at water and fire earth and wind enemies and friends all at once the wolf and the lamb the lion and the deer far away yet together look at the unity of this spring and winter manifested in the equinox you too must mingle my friends since the earth and the sky are mingled just for you and me be like sugarcane sweet yet silent don't get mixed up with bitter words my beloved grows right out of my own heart how much more union can there be Mevlana Jelaluddin Rumi ghazal number 2381 Cheers:o), David I/whirlderv@ap.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 30 14:13:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03991 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 14:13:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA16466; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 14:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz (pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA16193 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 14:09:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.126]) by pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990930181836.EEBA702.pop2-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 06:18:36 +1200 Message-ID: <37F3A7F0.70F6@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 06:12:00 +1200 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Biodynamics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1867 Robin Thank you for writing this. Is this though an experience of BD in general or just an experience of BD in NZ. Your experiences have been echoed by many farmers over many years here in New Zealand, with little being done to remedy it, seeing it or hearing it. I wish to suggest though that this experience has come from the activities of one long standing consultant (and his proteges) who believed in little if any fertilisation other than 500 & fish fert, to later move on wildly to RPR and Lime, all without soil tests of course. This is not only farming by neglect it is farming on faith, dangerous stuff and here is the results for the world to see. Take a good look, Robin has a valid and true point. Is it only through such international ridicule that the NZ BDA wakes up to what they are doing or will we just call Robin a crank too and put our heads firmly back up our rear ends for another 15 years, satisfied we have a few 'inherited' farms which stand as our example of reality BD. This is an example of what happens when you have a controlled BD media with one person being advisor, inspector, spokesperson, editor, unelected council heavy weight with, selected yes men/women in all the positions of 'power', with all dissenting voices relegated to persecution and banishment. Good on you Robin, go for it, we (in NZ) deserve every bit of ridicule you shove in our arrogant faces. But will it be enough, or do we need more shaming before we the BD members of NZ revolt and get some reality into the ongoing fantasy we have presently support for the last 20 years. Paid officials who hold all the power because they are the paid officials are dangerous. Check our the American Medical Association story. BDANZ is just the same and here is the evidence, if only we could see it, but who really cares. Humourously we hear cheers about all the new faces at our AGM, however is not it the return of the old faces we want to see? Anyway I could go on, good on you Robin, yell it out loud and far. The time has past for protecting abuse. Glen A. > However for your > >information I have been on BD farms back in NZ. One a dairy farmer who is > >quietly going broke as production has fallen 30% compared to when he was > >farming conventionally. However I don't think his financial demise can be > >blamed on biodynamics entirely, because in the Waikato, NZ; all milk goes > >into the general pool, but if he could sell his milk as BD milk, then the > >extra dollars he would receive for that would more than likely make up > >the 30% production drop compared to conventional dairying. Another farm > >was a deer farmer client. Deer farming should be about the easiest to > >convert to biodynamics, as they don't have the internal parasite > >problems to the degree of other stock, and because with the > >exception of ragwort, deer eat most weeds when pushed. However this guy > >was also going broke, because he couldn't grow enough grass. His pastures > >and those of another BD client who was a sheep and cattle farmer were the > >worst of my 500 odd pastoral clients in NZ. The latter farmer had the > >sickest looking sheep you could find and really the SPCA should have been > >called in. His paddocks were full of nodding thistle and ryegrass was > >being competed out by browntop, danthonia, ricegrass, Yorkshire Fog, > >Sweet vernal and the like. His sheep returned him very little money > >because they were bags of bones. On none of these farms did I pick up any > >warm-fuzzy spiritual vibes of hear 'cosmic pipes' echoing down the > >valleys. However these people were zealots for their watered down cowhorn > >'preps' as fertilizer and were even paying out money for them. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 30 14:40:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04643 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 14:40:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19423; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 14:38:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19163 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 14:36:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hWAALXR3m_ (4419) for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 14:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 14:36:33 EDT Subject: looking for BD work To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1868 My name is David Weiss. I am 28 and have done organic farming most of my life. I am looking for a live-in position for me and my perfect companion Shooz (a lab-collie mix). I am honest, hard working, dependable and patient with a good sense of humor. I am also a Vegan and a lover of all life and look to nurture as well as be nurtured in a healthy, natural, preferably warm (i.e.no wnter) environment. Please contact me with any further questions or possible living/work arrangements at your earliest possible convenience at: weiss_david@hotmail.com I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for your consideration. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 30 14:55:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04980 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 14:55:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21771; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 14:54:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21594 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 14:53:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.174] (r-66.182.alltel.net [166.102.66.182]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id NAA05143 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:53:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:53:00 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001d01bf0a40$48d0ee60$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Robin's Critique Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1869 Dear Robin and List, >From the other side of the continent (north america) let me add my comments to Andrew Lorand's. It is healthy to be skeptical, of course. I can't think of any good reason to swallow hype and illusion. It is another thing to refuse to acknowledge things that do not fit what it is possible to know according to the "five" senses. dIn biodynamics, hopefully, we've really got more sense than to limit our thinking to the five senses, no matter what the great Emmanuel Kant may have set as the limits of the possibilities of knowing. We cannot know emotion by means of the five senses. It is intangible as well as being ephemeral. Which brings up the question of time. The five senses don't have much to say about that either because time is not apprehended by the five senses. Nor goals, thoughts, desires, etc. Sorry, but they are not accessible to the five senses. But all these things are nevertheless quite real. Life and living organisms involve these intangible and ephemeral things to a high degree. With biodynamics we are dealing with life in its ongoing, thus dynamic, ephemeral nature. We miss out when we pin things down to specimen boards or catch their latest manifestations on film so that we have something tangible to point to. So, let's not imagine we are limited to what can be apprehended by the five senses. We would only be succumbing to hype and illusion. And let me point out even our use of the five senses is nowhere near as good as we tend to think. I can walk over meadows of clover and spot four and five leaf clovers right and left. Someone who does not know what they are looking at can walk right in front of me and never see these for and five leaf specimens. Well, really, they DO see them but they don't notice them any more than they don't notice that memory, which is our perception of time and is not something we apprehend with the five senses, is intangible. Next. Things like dowsing, radionics, orgone energy, cosmic pipes, homeopathy, you name it, are not generally considered to be part of biodynamics? Who says? Is biodynamics good agriculture? Well, these things mentioned above ought to all be included as part and parcel of good agriculture, no matter that they are often viewed as being on the fringes. Let me point out that in the universities everything about biodynamics is viewed as being on the fringes just as soon as the label "biodynamic" comes up. That's because by going beyond the epistemology of the five senses and thus looking squarely at realities that can't be weighed or measured or pinned to specimen boards--and thus not succumbing to hype and illusion--biodynamics is outside of the boundaries of what is taught in the universities. Of course, in the universities the question of "good" or "bad" doesn't really come up, so they call what they are teaching simply agriculture, and it doesn't matter that a whopping portion of it is ever so bad. It is pretty difficult to get a degree from a university unless you accept such limited notions as one plus one is two. No doubt sometimes one plus one is two, but add a male rabbit to a female rabbit and in roughly 35 days you may find it is something like six. Add a fox to a rabbit and it soon is only one. Add life to almost any of the things taught in the universities and you'll soon find out a bunch of things they are not teaching accurately there. I had serious trouble with algebra, for example. I couldn't see how one thing could ever be equal to something else. Then came my enlightenment. The algebraic notion of equalities was based on an AXIOM, which is an unprovable statement that is taken as true even though it cannot be proven as true. Once I knew they were only pretending--playing a game--that two different things could be taken as equal, then I went on to make "A's" in calculus, chemistry and physics. But for a while there I couldn't make sense out of algebra because I could see that quite obviously no two things were ever equal. Much of what we are dealing with here is labels. DOWSING is nothing more than a technique for clairvoyant perception. If we were only accustomed to using it, the human nervous system taken as a whole is an antenna for clairvoyant perception, and dowsing is just a means of using the nervous system as an antenna. Clairvoyance, of course, by definition goes beyond the five senses. Biofeedback is another technique but is nowhere near as easy for most people to access. Really dowsing IS a form of very simplified biofeedback. Biodynamics originated out of the clairvoyant works of a seer/scientist (Rudolf Steiner) who was so adept that he didn't have to use such pedestrian means as dowsing. But does that mean dowsing, or for that matter biofeedback, has no place in biodynamics? Who says? RADIONICS works with etheric and astral energies, but it does so with methods and terminology that were not in existence at the time of Rudolf Steiner's death. How dynamic is biodynamics if it can not encompass anything that didn't exist yet at the time of Rudolf Steiner's death? ORGONE energy is just another name for etheric energy. Again, we should not smell a rose by any other name? COSMIC PIPES (etheric field broadcasters) are something quite recent, and it baffles me that people can use electric motors to stir preps and airplanes or diesel tractors to spray them and still call that biodynamic while these things are modern--and at the same time say that cosmic pipes are not biodynamic. And HOMEOPATHY, well that label comes from treating diseases with preparations that cause similar disease symptoms in healthy folks. In biodynamics we are using our preps to positively influence our farms, not to cancel out disease symptoms with disease-like things. Yet you'll run across many instances where biodynamics is described as homeopathic agriculture. And, of course, you'll run across all kinds of folks who deny the efficacy of homeopathic medicine--no matter that it has been around quite a while now and was around in Rudolf Steiner's time and that one of Steiner's pupils, Lilly Kolisko, did phenomenal research proving it out. So about all I can suggest is to ignore those who suggest this or that is not biodynamic. They are hardly living in the here-and-now realities. Allan is perfectly biodynamic to have speakers and workshops on every aspect of reality because it is ALL biodynamic. And good for him that he also is not limited to inviting only those who can talk about the evidences of the five senses with no further venturing into reality than that. Ya'all come. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 30 15:02:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05109 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 15:02:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22700; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 15:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from medusa.icx.net (medusa.icx.net [206.96.250.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22316 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 14:59:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bcp.gtsduratek.com (max1ag.icx.net [208.134.108.34]) by medusa.icx.net (IDG-2.7/1.3nr) with SMTP id OAA14740 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 14:59:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SEG#u#DOM-Message_Server by bcp.gtsduratek.com with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 14:59:53 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 14:59:26 -0400 From: Kimberlie Cole To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: looking for BD work Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1870 I believe Andy Lee is looking for an apprentice for his farm in Va. (Temperate climate, but not warm 12 months of the year). He is not BD (exclusively? or at all?) but I noticed he had an add requesting an apprentice. You know he raises a number of animals for slaughter as well, in case that is a problem for you. His email address is goodearth@rockbridge.net. We're considering an apprentice too, but aren't yet set up. Best wishes. Kimberlie Cole West Wind Farm Deer Lodge, TN >>> 09/30/99 02:36PM >>> My name is David Weiss. I am 28 and have done organic farming most of my life. I am looking for a live-in position for me and my perfect companion Shooz (a lab-collie mix). I am honest, hard working, dependable and patient with a good sense of humor. I am also a Vegan and a lover of all life and look to nurture as well as be nurtured in a healthy, natural, preferably warm (i.e.no wnter) environment. Please contact me with any further questions or possible living/work arrangements at your earliest possible convenience at: weiss_david@hotmail.com I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for your consideration. ! ! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 30 19:10:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08989 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 19:10:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA21162; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 19:03:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA21007 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 19:01:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.174] (r-67.31.alltel.net [166.102.67.31]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA00700 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:01:58 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:01:58 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37F3A7F0.70F6@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Biodynamics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1871 Robin wrote: However for your > >information I have been on BD farms back in NZ. One a dairy farmer who is > >quietly going broke as production has fallen 30% compared to when he was > >farming conventionally. However I don't think his financial demise can be > >blamed on biodynamics entirely, because in the Waikato, NZ; all milk goes > >into the general pool, but if he could sell his milk as BD milk, then the > >extra dollars he would receive for that would more than likely make up > >the 30% production drop compared to conventional dairying. Another farm > >was a deer farmer client. Deer farming should be about the easiest to > >convert to biodynamics, as they don't have the internal parasite > >problems to the degree of other stock, and because with the > >exception of ragwort, deer eat most weeds when pushed. However this guy > >was also going broke, because he couldn't grow enough grass. His pastures > >and those of another BD client who was a sheep and cattle farmer were the > >worst of my 500 odd pastoral clients in NZ. The latter farmer had the > >sickest looking sheep you could find and really the SPCA should have been > >called in. His paddocks were full of nodding thistle and ryegrass was > >being competed out by browntop, danthonia, ricegrass, Yorkshire Fog, > >Sweet vernal and the like. His sheep returned him very little money > >because they were bags of bones. On none of these farms did I pick up any > >warm-fuzzy spiritual vibes of hear 'cosmic pipes' echoing down the > >valleys. However these people were zealots for their watered down cowhorn > >'preps' as fertilizer and were even paying out money for them. And Glen Atkinson writes: Good on you Robin, go for it, we (in NZ) deserve every bit of ridicule you shove in our arrogant faces. But will it be enough, or do we need more shaming before we the BD members of NZ revolt and get some reality into the ongoing fantasy we have presently support for the last 20 years. Paid officials who hold all the power because they are the paid officials are dangerous. Check our the American Medical Association story. BDANZ is just the same and here is the evidence, if only we could see it, but who really cares. Humourously we hear cheers about all the new faces at our AGM, however is not it the return of the old faces we want to see? Anyway I could go on, good on you Robin, yell it out loud and far. The time has past for protecting abuse. Glen A. Dear Robin and List, Glen's point here certainly is one to take to heart. I fear that by looking at what has gone on in biodynamics over the past 75 years you will find enormous shortcomings and plenty of room for criticism. And why? Precisely because in all too many cases it was practiced with a mystical "blind faith" adherence and not from true understanding. For example, throughout most of the world the practice of stirring and applying the cow horn/manure preparation was something one did 2 or 3 times a year all by itself without any for applying all of the biodynamic preparations as a complete package. I can tell you from personal experience that this throws the environment out of balance and is detrimental in the long run. Yet, throughout most of the world this is still the practice. When the whole array of BD preps are applied back-to-back in a sequential spray program such as Hugh Courtney of the Josephine Porter Institute (JPI) recommends or such as Greg Willis of AgriSynthesis recommends it is an entirely different story. Since I'm the one who has spent the last 15 years doing cosmic pipe (etheric field broadcaster) research and revising the whole concept, I should be the one to talk about that. And I say that without using ALL the preps in a balanced way it is possible to get things seriously out of whack and causing serious problems. Of course farms in general have all manner of serious problems and not too many folks have good answers like sequential spraying, horn clay and etheric field broadcasting. This situation came to light very forcefully with my research with field broadcasters (cosmic pipes are not musical instruments nor are they for smoking) because an etheric field broadcaster applies its biodynamic preparations to the farm environment (up to 500 acres per broadcaster) each and every day. And with the discoveries Greg Willis has made with horn clay, the new biodynamic preparation, field broadcasting has become more than twice as effective than previously because horn clay ties all the other biodynamic preparations together as a balanced whole. So it has become VERY clear that ALL the biodynamic preparations need to be used together and not just one sprayed this month and another next year. With what some of us have learned about applying all the preps including horn clay together in a spray sequence or with an etheric field broadcaster it almost looks like it would be barely possible to just apply preps and little else in terms of fertilizer. But take it from me, and I'm not only a (moderately) successful small farmer but I've written a book about this that is into its second printing, its not good biodynamics to rely only on the application (worse yet only occasional applications of only one prep at a time) of biodynamic preparations and expect that to correct all shortcomings in fertilization. What biodynamics should be about is using everything we know about to grow the highest quality crops in quantity. I think Glen has his finger on the pulse when he points out when and why this has not taken place. It's too bad when such things happen, and it tarnishes the good with the bad. All this is another reason we need the BD List as a forum for those of us, like myself and Glen, who know where things are amiss but can't get this knowledge into print in the official biodynamic journals. In this regard, however, Greg Willis has spearheaded the founding of an alternative biodynamic association in North America called the American Biodynamic Association (ABA). While the long-standing biodynamic association (BDA) has in general done a good job of keeping literature (including my book, A Biodynamic Farm) available, over the past 50 years it has not led to having as many as 50 certified biodynamic farms in the US. I don't view that as a good record. I think partly it is because of the sort of thing Glen is talking about. I don't know yet who will edit the ABA journal, but I'm assured that I'll be a regular contributor of articles and hopefully Glen will be too. For the present I intend to belong to both associations. We'll see if the logjam breaks. I hope to see biodynamics become mainstream in my lifetime, which it won't do as long as the existing biodynamic associations continue to reject Glen Atkinson's work with homeopathic formulations of the preps, Greg Willis's work with horn clay, Hugh Courtney's work with sequential spraying, Lorraine Cahill's work with dowsing and radionics or my own work with etheric field broadcasting. There surely is an element of cultism and true belief amongst some of the people who claim to be adherents or supporters of biodynamics. That's too bad. It's not a good reflection on the rest. You won't find it with any of the folks I mentioned above. They are all realists who have a little more vision than the ordinary. Cultism and true belief are indefensible. On the other hand the results of those who are practicing good biodynamics don't have to be defended,they speak for themselves. When Allan (or myself, or Jeff Poppen, etc.) throw a biodynamic conference we see to it as much biodynamic food as possible is available for everyone to feast on. And I do mean feast. How the heck else are people going to know whether this stuff really works or not? As one respondent to this conversation pointed out Jesus taught that we may know who is for real and who is full of bull by checking out their fruits (and vegetables, of course). As spiritual as Jesus was he also was into realism rather than myths and illusions. After his passing from the scene, Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 30 19:23:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA09112 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 19:23:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA22891; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 19:21:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22700 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 19:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp5-11.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.203]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id QAA19755 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:19:30 -0700 Message-ID: <37F3F11D.68732ED2@netmagic.net> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:24:14 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE References: <3c049c8f.2524330a@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1872 NEILLCO@aol.com wrote: > Interesting debate and Robins experiances adds some new light. I would like > to know if Robin considers that the failing BD farms he witnessed would have > been more successfull using conventional techniques? > > BD appears to me to be the grandfather of the more modern Organic method. The > main distinction of the two seems to be that BD maintains the use of a > mystical, "spiritual" aspect and Organic farming does not. The question seems > to be, does a spiritual quality, appropriately administered, improve > farming techniques? > > I seem to remember a study done where plants that were talked to did better > than those that were not. > > The suprising success of Amish farmers and other religious farming groups in > the USA may also tend to support the use of a spiritual approach. > > Randi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 30 20:09:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09560 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA26831; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA26521 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:03:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.174] (r-66.176.alltel.net [166.102.66.176]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id TAA21697 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 19:03:48 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 19:03:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <37F3A7F0.70F6@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Biodynamics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1873 Dear List, I got interrupted and sent this by accident before it was quite finished. Robin wrote: However for your > >information I have been on BD farms back in NZ. One a dairy farmer who is > >quietly going broke as production has fallen 30% compared to when he was > >farming conventionally. However I don't think his financial demise can be > >blamed on biodynamics entirely, because in the Waikato, NZ; all milk goes > >into the general pool, but if he could sell his milk as BD milk, then the > >extra dollars he would receive for that would more than likely make up > >the 30% production drop compared to conventional dairying. Another farm > >was a deer farmer client. Deer farming should be about the easiest to > >convert to biodynamics, as they don't have the internal parasite > >problems to the degree of other stock, and because with the > >exception of ragwort, deer eat most weeds when pushed. However this guy > >was also going broke, because he couldn't grow enough grass. His pastures > >and those of another BD client who was a sheep and cattle farmer were the > >worst of my 500 odd pastoral clients in NZ. The latter farmer had the > >sickest looking sheep you could find and really the SPCA should have been > >called in. His paddocks were full of nodding thistle and ryegrass was > >being competed out by browntop, danthonia, ricegrass, Yorkshire Fog, > >Sweet vernal and the like. His sheep returned him very little money > >because they were bags of bones. On none of these farms did I pick up any > >warm-fuzzy spiritual vibes of hear 'cosmic pipes' echoing down the > >valleys. However these people were zealots for their watered down cowhorn > >'preps' as fertilizer and were even paying out money for them. And Glen Atkinson writes: Good on you Robin, go for it, we (in NZ) deserve every bit of ridicule you shove in our arrogant faces. But will it be enough, or do we need more shaming before we the BD members of NZ revolt and get some reality into the ongoing fantasy we have presently support for the last 20 years. Paid officials who hold all the power because they are the paid officials are dangerous. Check our the American Medical Association story. BDANZ is just the same and here is the evidence, if only we could see it, but who really cares. Humourously we hear cheers about all the new faces at our AGM, however is not it the return of the old faces we want to see? Anyway I could go on, good on you Robin, yell it out loud and far. The time has past for protecting abuse. Glen A. Dear Robin and List, Glen's point here certainly is one to take to heart. I fear that by looking at what has gone on in biodynamics over the past 75 years you will find enormous shortcomings and plenty of room for criticism. And why? Precisely because in all too many cases it was practiced with a mystical "blind faith" adherence and not from true understanding. It was taught that way too. For example, throughout most of the world the practice of stirring and applying the cow horn/manure preparation was something one did 2 or 3 times a year all by itself without any thought for applying all of the biodynamic preparations as a complete package. I can tell you from personal experience that this throws the environment out of balance and is detrimental in the long run. Yet, throughout most of the world this is still the practice. When the whole array of BD preps are applied back-to-back in a sequential spray program such as Hugh Courtney of the Josephine Porter Institute (JPI) recommends or such as Greg Willis of AgriSynthesis recommends it is an entirely different story. Since I'm the one who has spent the last 15 years doing cosmic pipe (etheric field broadcaster) research and revising the whole concept, I should be the one to talk about that. And I say that without using ALL the preps in a balanced way it is possible to get things seriously out of whack and causing serious problems. Of course farms in general have all manner of serious problems and not too many folks have good answers like sequential spraying, horn clay and etheric field broadcasting. This situation came to light very forcefully with my research with field broadcasters (cosmic pipes are not musical instruments nor are they for smoking) because an etheric field broadcaster applies its biodynamic preparations to the farm environment (up to 500 acres per broadcaster) each and every day. And with the discoveries Greg Willis has made with horn clay, the new biodynamic preparation, field broadcasting has become more than twice as effective than previously because horn clay ties all the other biodynamic preparations together as a balanced whole. So it has become VERY clear that ALL the biodynamic preparations need to be used together and not just one sprayed this month and another next year. With what some of us have learned about applying all the preps including horn clay together in a spray sequence or with an etheric field broadcaster it almost looks like it would be barely possible to just apply preps and little else in terms of fertilizer. But take it from me, and I'm not only a (moderately) successful small farmer but I've written a book about this that is into its second printing, its not good biodynamics to rely only on the application (worse yet only occasional applications of only one prep at a time) of biodynamic preparations and expect that to correct all shortcomings in fertilization. What biodynamics should be about is using everything we know about to grow the highest quality crops in quantity. I think Glen has his finger on the pulse when he points out when and why this has not taken place. It's too bad when such things happen, and it tarnishes the good with the bad. All this is another reason we need the BD List as a forum for those of us, like myself and Glen, who know where things are amiss but can't get this knowledge into print in the official biodynamic journals. In this regard, however, Greg Willis has spearheaded the founding of an alternative biodynamic association in North America called the American Biodynamic Association (ABA). While the long-standing biodynamic association (BDA) has in general done a good job of keeping literature (including my book, A Biodynamic Farm) available, over the past 50 years it has not led to having as many as 50 certified biodynamic farms in the US. I don't view that as a good record. I think partly it is because of the sort of thing Glen is talking about. I don't know yet who will edit the ABA journal, but I'm assured that I'll be a regular contributor of articles and hopefully Glen will be too. For the present I intend to belong to both associations. We'll see if the logjam breaks. I hope to see biodynamics become mainstream in my lifetime, which it won't do as long as the existing biodynamic associations continue to reject Glen Atkinson's work with homeopathic formulations of the preps, Greg Willis's work with horn clay, Hugh Courtney's work with sequential spraying, Lorraine Cahill's work with dowsing and radionics or my own work with etheric field broadcasting. There surely is an element of cultism and true belief amongst some of the people who claim to be adherents or supporters of biodynamics. That's too bad. It's not a good reflection on the rest. You won't find it with any of the folks I mentioned above. They are all realists who have a little more vision than the ordinary. Cultism and true belief are indefensible. On the other hand the results of those who are practicing good biodynamics don't have to be defended,they speak for themselves. When Allan (or myself, or Jeff Poppen, etc.) throw a biodynamic conference we see to it as much biodynamic food as possible is available for everyone to feast on. And I do mean feast. How the heck else are people going to know whether this stuff really works or not? As one respondent to this conversation pointed out Jesus taught that we may know who is for real and who is full of bull by checking out their fruits (and vegetables, of course). As spiritual as Jesus was he also was into realism rather than myths and illusions. After his passing from the scene, we have, of course seen plenty of folks (getting paid for) making the most out of myth and illusions as part of cults and true beliefs built up around Jesus. Just the kind of thing Glen is talking about. Here's my favorite Thoreau quote: "Just as when there is a lull in a storm a snowdrift piles up, when there is a lull in the truth an organization springs up." If biodynamics ever becomes mainstream it will be because it got bigger than the Associations calling themselves biodynamic. I think that's why most people only join the BDA in order to get its journal. I rather imagine that will be the compelling reason for joining the ABA. I'll have more information on that in future posts, or perhaps Greg Willis will share it with us. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Sep 30 23:37:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA13207 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:37:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA20603; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:35:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d10.mx (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20482 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:33:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Andyschad@aol.com Received: from Andyschad@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hIVEi9mgT_ (7986) for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:33:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <32db052b.2525856b@aol.com> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:32:59 EDT Subject: Re: ADMIN: Biodynamics To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1874 Hi Robin, Did you study BD? sure sounds like a good place to start Andy From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 1 00:51:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA14047 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 00:51:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA27339; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 00:49:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27176 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 00:47:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-17.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.50]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA20486 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 21:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37F43AE9.F8E946C5@ap.net> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 21:39:06 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Robin's Critique/Andrew's comment References: <8a902a2c.25238264@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1875 Snarzlak@aol.com wrote: > > Thanks to Andrew for the commentary that helped clear up some > important ideas. I missed Robin's original critique, but I assume it had a > good dose of healthy skepticism about the experiences and practices of some > people's farming practices. > Andrew did make a point I would like to clarify a little more for a > better understanding of things. Andrew stated; > > > Let me share, that I often think > > about the fact that it > > was materialistic science in the first place that promoted the abuse of the > > land and the deterioration of our resources. Science today does little to > > promote a healthy agriculture. Very little. It further's mostly high input, > > high technology, high finance agriculture, not healthy alternatives. > > Certainly science has no monopoly, maybe even no claim at all on furthering > > positive ecological health in agriculture...It was only very recently that > > science even turned its attention to the issues of sustainability and > > ecosystems health.. > > Very true, and yet it needs clarification. The so-called "science" > of today, what we commonly think of as the test-tube/lab coat variety of > research and new discoveries, is under the yoke and payroll of big business, > global corporations, and the like. There is an extreme bias in today's big > money funded "science" to discover innovative methods of industrial processes > which yield profits and economic gain. This of course is not true science. > It is some relative self-interest looking for advantages in the marketplace. > It lacks a proper word to describe it. (The job of a gifted linguist would be > to drape this concept with the appropriate terminology for a better > understanding. Anyone up to the task would certainly be adding to the body of > human understanding.) Real science is more harmonious, and that's what I hope > to find in this biodynamic group discussion. > I would like to say that if anyone in this mailing list is going to > talk about cosmic pipes, methods of dowsing or otherwise explore the > far-reaches of unprovable "science", you should expect to be scrutinized and > critiqued. I think it only fair that if we are going to critique science, > that we allow for a clash of opinions to root out the truth, and that means > exposing the "errors" in biodynamics as well as the "errors" in big business > funded science. > > > Patrick Calistro > > (student UNH) Time to wake up and get your terms defined. It appears that you are confused about science and opinion. There is a host of anecdotal, empirical evidence that demonstrates the reality of biodynamic effects. A "clash' of opinions is no more than just that. Noise. If your opinion is based on rejecting the evidence because it was not gathered according to your rules or the sample size was not big enough for YOU, then it is your problem. The proof is in the pudding as they say. The tool of your opinion is blunt indeed unless it is backed up by actual experience with the techniques of biodynamics. Don't be disappointed if the rules of your personally designed "science" are inadequete to penetrate the depths of BD. Its just the limitation of the tool you have chosen. One more time for Shakespere, "there are more things in heaven and earth than in your philosophy, Horatio". Best wishes for a truly expanding experience, :o)/David i From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 1 08:53:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18072 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 08:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA17605; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 08:51:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17510 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 08:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha14s170.d.shentel.net [204.111.53.170]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13991; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 09:00:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37F4ADF0.6F072654@LightExpression.com> Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 08:49:53 -0400 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org CC: """or" Subject: Re: Robin's Critique/Andrew's comment References: <8a902a2c.25238264@aol.com> <37F43AE9.F8E946C5@ap.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1876 Please read on.......... David Isaacs wrote: > Time to wake up and get your terms defined. It appears that you are confused > about science and opinion. There is a host of anecdotal, empirical evidence that > demonstrates the reality of biodynamic effects. A "clash' of opinions is no more > than just that. Noise. If your opinion is based on rejecting the evidence > because it was not gathered according to your rules or the sample size was not big > enough for YOU, then it is your problem. The proof is in the pudding as they say. > The tool of your opinion is blunt indeed unless it is backed up by actual > experience with the techniques of biodynamics. > > Don't be disappointed if the rules of your personally designed "science" are > inadequete to penetrate the depths of BD. Its just the limitation of the tool you > have chosen. One more time for Shakespere, "there are more things in heaven and > earth than in your philosophy, Horatio". > > Best wishes for a truly expanding experience, :o)/David i It is difficult to defend against criticism and individual denial when dealing with issues of the esoteric. Even though BD's value is seen by many and then there is the issue as to how the applications are in fact implemented that will have some bearing on one's positive experience or otherwise with the concept (BD agriculture). At least 95% of the public has not awakened to the call of the Divine -- and you just can't push. If they are not ready -- they are not ready. It is of value to assist in this enlightening process by offering some insight to those who we may encounter -- but you will soon know that there is interest -- or there is not interest. And you proceed from there. Further on David's post -- Dowsing is quite real -- there is even an American Society of Dowsers where information and tools can be obtained to further one's experience. One only has to be willing to investigate and the experience will be the validation. But I have seen people who have seen good and very effective dowsing demonstrated and still they do not believe it -- or tag it as "black magic". Misunderstanding........... We work with Nature here at our Farm -- and the BD protocol is a part of the program on this land (among other protocols). Years ago, we had a very validating experience here. A local farmer and friend (scientific in protocol), came over to discuss the planting of a field which had laid fallow through one year. We had decided to plant an alfalfa / orchard grass hay field and he said that he would have the Co-op to come over, test the field, and determine the nutrients which were needed for the new planting. Well, as soon as he left that day (and he couldn't have stood to review the process that was to follow), Sharon reached for her pendulum; connected with the Overlighting Deva (Angel caretaker of the land) of our farm and also the Overlighting Deva of Soil; asked what nutrients would be appropriate for the transition of this field. She asked (in her yes / no format) about a few nutrients which came to mind and received a "yes" to lime -- one ton per acre in the top two inches of the soil prior to planting the new crop. Time went by............... Three weeks later, I called our friend (farmer) and said, "Sharon got that we needed one ton of lime in the top two inches of soil before planting the alfalfa and such." Well, Freddie snapped right back, "DID YOU COME OVER HERE AND LOOK AT MY MAIL?" I certainly was not expecting that response. Just that day, Freddie had received in the mail the report from the Co-op that stated our needs for supplements in the new field as -- One ton of lime in the top two inches of soil before planting............... I was so elated at the timing of the information relative to my call and was most pleased with the information which we had received from the Angels who work with us -- and with everyone for that matter -- whether they recognize the source or not. Divinity is -- Divinity works -- and I am overcome with emotion in appreciation for this support and realization. Hope that all has a joyous weekend! In appreciation........ Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 1 10:18:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19508 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 10:18:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24416; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 10:16:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nygate.undp.org (nygate.undp.org [192.124.42.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24310 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 10:15:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from umka.undp.org (umka.undp.org [192.124.42.40]) by nygate.undp.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.5) with ESMTP id KAA00459 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 10:15:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inet01.hq.undp.org ([127.0.0.1]) by umka.undp.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAADD2 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 10:19:19 -0400 Received: from undp.org ([165.65.10.98]) by inet01.hq.undp.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA46C2 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 10:14:45 -0400 Message-ID: <37F4C19E.FC5D7C18@undp.org> Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 10:13:50 -0400 From: "David Fazzino" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ADMIN: Biodynamics References: <32db052b.2525856b@aol.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------51EA5E3CD6EE56F1FA7B1D3F" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1877 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------51EA5E3CD6EE56F1FA7B1D3F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit UNSUBSCRIBE --------------51EA5E3CD6EE56F1FA7B1D3F Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for david.fazzino@undp.org Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: david.fazzino@undp.org n: ;david.fazzino@undp.org email;internet: david.fazzino@undp.org x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------51EA5E3CD6EE56F1FA7B1D3F-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 1 20:33:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01541 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 20:33:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA19968; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 20:30:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19641 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 20:25:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Snarzlak@aol.com Received: from Snarzlak@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hLOBa04067 (4529) for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 20:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <729cc530.2526aad2@aol.com> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 20:24:50 EDT Subject: Re: David's comment To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 27 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1878 In a message dated 9/30/99 11:51:29 PM Central Daylight Time, whirlderv@ap.net writes: > > Time to wake up and get your terms defined. It appears that you are > confused > about science and opinion. There is a host of anecdotal, empirical evidence > that > demonstrates the reality of biodynamic effects. A "clash' of opinions is no > more > than just that. Noise. If your opinion is based on rejecting the evidence > because it was not gathered according to your rules or the sample size was > not big > enough for YOU, then it is your problem. The proof is in the pudding as they > say. > The tool of your opinion is blunt indeed unless it is backed up by actual > experience with the techniques of biodynamics. > > Don't be disappointed if the rules of your personally designed "science" > are > inadequete to penetrate the depths of BD. Its just the limitation of the > tool you > have chosen. One more time for Shakespere, "there are more things in heaven > and > earth than in your philosophy, Horatio". > > Best wishes for a truly expanding experience, :o)/David i > My point was simply that there are going to be people in every branch of learning who are mistaken, ignorant, or in error. Some of these people are highly respected men of "modern science." Some are politicians. Some are people who practice biodynamics. I don't know enough about biodynamics to judge it outright. What I do know, (quite intuitively I might add) is that some people who practice biodynamics are quite mistaken when making certain excessive claims. A critical examination of claims and methods cannot verify every truth, but it can often rule out the hocus-pocus. Pat From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 1 20:41:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01623 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 20:41:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA20557; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 20:40:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA20319 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 20:37:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Snarzlak@aol.com Received: from Snarzlak@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hVOIa01938 (4529) for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 20:37:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <15b58034.2526adbc@aol.com> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 20:37:16 EDT Subject: Re: Wayne's Overlighting Deva Experience To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 27 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1879 In a message dated 10/1/99 7:51:57 AM Central Daylight Time, Essences@LightExpression.com writes: > It is difficult to defend against criticism and individual denial when > dealing with > issues of the esoteric. Even though BD's value is seen by many and then > there is the > issue as to how the applications are in fact implemented that will have some > bearing > on one's positive experience or otherwise with the concept (BD agriculture). > At least > 95% of the public has not awakened to the call of the Divine -- and you just > can't > push. If they are not ready -- they are not ready. > > It is of value to assist in this enlightening process by offering some > insight to > those who we may encounter -- but you will soon know that there is interest - > - or > there is not interest. And you proceed from there. > > Further on David's post -- Dowsing is quite real -- there is even an > American Society > of Dowsers where information and tools can be obtained to further one's > experience. > One only has to be willing to investigate and the experience will be the > validation. > But I have seen people who have seen good and very effective dowsing > demonstrated and > still they do not believe it -- or tag it as "black magic". > Misunderstanding........... > > We work with Nature here at our Farm -- and the BD protocol is a part of the > program > on this land (among other protocols). Years ago, we had a very validating > experience > here. A local farmer and friend (scientific in protocol), came over to > discuss the > planting of a field which had laid fallow through one year. We had decided > to plant > an alfalfa / orchard grass hay field and he said that he would have the Co- > op to come > over, test the field, and determine the nutrients which were needed for the > new > planting. Well, as soon as he left that day (and he couldn't have stood to > review the > process that was to follow), Sharon reached for her pendulum; connected with > the > Overlighting Deva (Angel caretaker of the land) of our farm and also the > Overlighting > Deva of Soil; asked what nutrients would be appropriate for the transition > of this > field. She asked (in her yes / no format) about a few nutrients which came > to mind > and received a "yes" to lime -- one ton per acre in the top two inches of > the soil > prior to planting the new crop. > > Time went by............... Three weeks later, I called our friend (farmer) > and said, > "Sharon got that we needed one ton of lime in the top two inches of soil > before > planting the alfalfa and such." Well, Freddie snapped right back, "DID YOU > COME OVER > HERE AND LOOK AT MY MAIL?" I certainly was not expecting that response. > Just that > day, Freddie had received in the mail the report from the Co-op that stated > our needs > for supplements in the new field as -- One ton of lime in the top two inches > of soil > before planting............... > > I was so elated at the timing of the information relative to my call and was > most > pleased with the information which we had received from the Angels who work > with us -- > and with everyone for that matter -- whether they recognize the source or > not. > > Divinity is -- Divinity works -- and I am overcome with emotion in > appreciation for > this support and realization. > > Hope that all has a joyous weekend! > > In appreciation........ > > Wayne > Wayne....if your soil's pH is a bit acidic, you might need some lime. Any high school kid with a year of chemistry could determine the pH for the soil. Now...where do the Arch Angels and Overlighting Devas fit into this equation? Please expand on this experience. Pat From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 1 21:34:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02062 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 21:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA23489; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 21:32:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA23278 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 21:28:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-243.s243.tnt1.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.243]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA27038 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 21:28:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37F560C3.A2ED5C8D@erols.com> Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 21:32:51 -0400 From: Rex Harrill X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: David's comment References: <729cc530.2526aad2@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1880 Snarzlak@aol.com wrote: > My point was simply that there are going to be people in every > branch of learning who are mistaken, ignorant, or in error. The BD bigwigs are off pow-wowing, so I'll ask the question: why no mention of scam artists, con men, and other assorted crooks? For instance, studies clearly show that cancer patients who accept *no* treatment survive longer than those who accept 'the best that modern medicine has to offer.' Are you so kind as to offer a choice of your above labels to, say, a radiologist who, knowing that, then sears his client's guts into crisp bacon? And where in your M-I-E spectrum would you place the scientist-whores who sucked up to the tobacco trade until their own families could not stand them? As my favorite expose' newspaper likes to close an article about yet another success of those who would poison their neighbors for pay: "They could be mistaken---and then again we may be witness to thoroughly informed self-interest." ACRES, USA addresses mainly the makers of toxic agricultural technology. You then stated that intuitively you know that some people who practice BD are making excessive claims and, as best I can tell, painted them with the same brush I reserve for the petro-chemical monster geared up to poison us all. By actual definition, BD people go at their trade from a spiritual basis. They try to increase the life of their farms, not spew death in all directions. IMHO, it's almost impossible to make excessive claims for life. Regards, Rex Harrill From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 2 01:48:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA04192 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 01:48:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA04966; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 01:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA04879 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 01:44:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d141.infoserve.net [199.175.157.141]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA26525 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 1999 22:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002301bf0c99$f6742680$8d9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF / Fw: GEN9-30 Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 22:49:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1881 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Friday, October 01, 1999 7:01 PM Subject: GEN9-30 > Wednesday 29th September 1999 >GM CROPS: GENETIC POLLUTION PROVED >GM Pollen Found Miles from Trial Site > >Government policy on GM food and crops suffered another shattering blow >today after GM oilseed rape pollen was found by scientists four and a half >kilometres from an official farm scale trial site [1]. The Government's >rules for the farm scale trials require only a 50 metre separation distance >between GM crops and other fields [2]. These are the first monitoring >results of GM pollen from a farm scale trial. They show GM pollen at >distances further than ever previously detected and shows the scale of the >threat the trials pose to non-GM crops, beekeepers and the wider >environment [3]. > >The errant GM pollen was found during a GM monitoring and analysis >programme organised by Friends of the Earth and Newsnight, around Model >Farm, near Watlington, Oxfordshire. The monitoring was carried out by the >National Pollen Research Unit and a bee specialist, and the GM analysis was >carried out by the Federal Environment Agency in Austria. These disturbing >results will severely embarrass the Government on the day of the >environment debate at the Labour Party conference. Earlier this month the >Government was forced to admit that trials of winter oilseed rape are >illegal, after a Court challenge by Friends of the Earth showed that the >rules governing consent for such trials had been broken to suit the >convenience of biotech giant AgrEvo. > >The study, which looked at pollen carried by bees and in the air showed >that:: All six bee hives monitored - located at between 500 metres and 4.5 >kilometres from the GM crop - were found to contain GM oilseed rape pollen >[3]; >Airborne GM pollen was detected at up to 475 metres from the trial site [4]. > >Charles Secrett, Executive Director of Friends of the Earth, said: "This >study shows that genetic pollution from the farm scale trials is already >happening. Earlier this month we forced the Government to admit that the >new farm scale trials are illegal. This week, we have shown that all the >current GM trials threaten local farmers, beekeepers and the environment. >This must be the death blow for the whole GM trials programme. Let Tony >Blair use the Labour Party conference to announce that it will now be >stopped. Nothing less will reassure the public that the Government gives a >hoot about the environmental safety of GM food and crops." * ENDS- > > >> NOTES TO EDITORS [1] Friends of the Earth contracted the National Pollen >>Research Unit at University College, Worcester to monitor airborne pollen >>on roads and public rights of way around the farm scale trial for spring >>oilseed rape at Model Farm, Pirton, Near Watlington, Oxfordshire in June >>and July 1999. Access problems (the farmer owned most of the land in the >>vicinity) meant that permanent monitoring sites could not be set up and >>therefore spot samples were used. See attached summary. > >Pollen traps were placed on six bee hives sited in the area of the farm >scale trial in June and July 1999. Two were 500 metres from the crop, two >were 2.75 kilometres from the crop and two were 4.5 km. The pollen was >collected and analysed by a bee and honey consultant , Sarah Brookes, of >Evesham, Worcestershire. > >Newsnight sent six samples of airborne pollen and 6 of beehive pollen were >sent to the laboratory of the Federal Environment Agency in Austria for DNA >analysis. All six beehive samples were found to contain GM oilseed rape >pollen from an AgrEvo variety and 2 out of 6 airborne samples. > >[2] The Supply Chain Initiative on the Modified Agricultural Crops (SCIMAC) >code of practice for growing GM herbicide resistant crops has been endorsed >by the UK Government. The maximum separation distance for GM oilseed crops >and conventional crops is 50m. For seed crops and organic crops the >recommended distance is 200m. > >[3] Research by the Scottish Crop Research Institute reported at the Gene >Flow in Agriculture: Revelence for Transgeneic Crops Conference, Keele >University April 1999 (British Crop Protection Council Symposium >Proceedings No 72) reported oilseed rape pollen at 4km from a field of >oilseed rape. > >-- > >Neil Verlander Press Office Friends of the Earth 0171 566 1649 > >.......... > >For Immediate Release >Monday September 27th1999 >TONY BLAIR FRUSTRATED AS CONFERENCE HOTEL AND GRANITA GO GM FREE > > Tony Blair will be unable to satisfy his passion for genetically modified >food this week at the Labour Party Conference as his conference hotel is >going GM-free. To add insult to injury, his favourite Islington restaurant, >Granita (where he and Gordon Brown famously decided who would lead the >Labour Party) is also turning its back on GM food. The news comes only days >after the Palace of Westminster caterers announced that they were going GM >free. Even Poole, Dorset and Bournemouth Councils, where the Labour Party >Conference is taking place, are working closely with suppliers to ensure >council menus are free from GM ingredients. > > Swallow Highcliff Hotel, whose facilities Blair and his Cabinet will be >enjoying this week, is one of Swallow Hotels thirty eight UK chain that are >going GM free. The hotel chain has decided to take the precautionary >approach to the unknown risks associated with GM food and crops and is >removing GM ingredients from food served in all its catering and banqueting >services. Granita has become the one hundred and thirtieth restaurant to >sign up to the Greenpeace 'Restaurants Avoiding GM Foods' initiative and >has pledged to avoid using GM ingredients in its food wherever possible. > > Jim Thomas, GM campaigner at Greenpeace, said: "Tony Blair is going to >have real trouble trying to find GM food in Bournemouth this week as so >many restaurants and hotels have now decided that GM food is not worth the >risk. Let's hope that Monsanto or AgrEvo can rush him a hamper to keep him >going." > > The Greenpeace stand, located in the Purbeck Hall at the Labour Party >Conference, will be giving away GM-free organic beer all this week as well >as acting as Greenpeace press centre for the duration of the conference. >The Greenpeace stand is number P32 in the Purbeck Hall. > > For further information please contact: > > Greenpeace GM-free stand at the Labour Party Conference on 01202 589 636 >Samantha Arditti or Jim Thomas in Bournemouth on mobile 07801 212 964 >Greenpeace press office on 0171 865 8255/6/7/8 > >....... > >Wired News 30.Sep.99.PDT > > >GM Pollen Getting Around >Reuters > >3:00 a.m. 30.Sep.99.PDT >The BBC said it had evidence that genetically modified pollen is escaping >from British field trials into the wider environment, despite government >regulations. > >The BBC's Newsnight program on Wednesday night said it had found modified >genes in pollen samples collected up to 4.5 kilometers (2.8 miles) from a >field of GM oil seed rape in the county of Oxfordshire, west of London. > > > Read ongoing >Med-Tech coverage > > This was at least 20 times over a limit set by Britain's Labor government >of just 200 meters (656 feet). > >"This has very serious implications both for beekeepers ... and for farmers >who are trying to grow GM-free oil seed rape for the great and vastly >expanding GM-free market," said Pete Riley of the Friends of the Earth >environmental pressure group. > >Environment Minister Michael Meacher told the BBC: "We have never said that >the isolation distances were 100 percent containable. We have always known >that a vanishingly small percentage of pollen grains will escape beyond >that limit. He acknowledged that the regulations may need to be revised. > >"I do accept that we should look further at this ... and we may well have >to extend those distances in order to minimize still further the risk of >any possible cross fertilization." > >Pollen samples used in the Newsnight research were collected near a GM >field trial site at Watlington in Oxfordshire. Samples were taken from the >air at distances from the site of up to 475 meters (1,558 feet) and in >beehives up to 4.5 km (2.8 miles) away. > >Detailed DNA analysis by the Austrian Federal Environment Agency, one of >the few laboratories in Europe capable of doing the work, showed two of the >airborne samples and all six beehives tested positive for GM material, the >BBC said. It said the research showed it was practically impossible for >farmers within 4.5 km (2.8 miles) of a GM field to be sure their crops were >GM free. > >Copyright 1999 Reuters Limited. >......... > >Europe seeking GM-free soymeal, Brazil seen source >By Eric Onstad >AMSTERDAM, >Sept 29 (Reuters) - European animal feed makers are seeking soymeal free >from genetically modified (GM) organisms, but the premium they will pay is >still uncertain, traders said. Soymeal sourced from northern Brazil, still >regarded as free from GM crops, is being offered to compounders, they >added. It was unclear whether GM-free material from the United States would >be available from this year's soybean harvest, even though farmers there >have been told to separate crops. "There are sources that say they can >supply GM-free material from northern Brazil. > >........ > > Reuters Thai farmers want ban on gene-altered seed imports BANGKOK: >September 29, 1999 BANGKOK - A group of Thai farmers yesterday urged the >government to ban the import of genetically modified seeds. > >The Anti-Biotechnology Farmers Group, which said it represented farmers >across the country, said it feared the imports of genetically modified >seeds and plants would seriously hurt the Thai agricultural sector. > >"Biotechnology will ruin our traditional farming activity, which has been >handed down from generation to generation," said group leader Veerapol >Sopha in a petition to the government. > >The group said the use of biotechnology would benefit not Thai farmers but >foreign biotechnology companies. > >"Those companies dominate most of the biotechnological activities in the >world and, thus, the more of genetically modified organisms we make use, >the more we would have to rely on them," Veerapol said. > >......... > >Canadian Broadcasting Corporation Online >Percy versus Monsanto >Martin O'Malley >CBC News Online Bruno, Sask. 9/29/99 > >Driving east from Saskatoon, heading to the Manitoba border, the sign on >Highway 5 said "Bruno, 6K." That was the road to Percy Schmeiser's place, >but I decided t'hell with it, Percy's been done. > >Watched the documentary on him on CBC-TV's The National. Soon he'll be on >CBC-TV's The Fifth Estate. And television crews are coming to Bruno from >Japan, Germany, and England. Even the Bloc Quebecois is sending a >representative from Quebec to meet with Percy Schmeiser and discuss his >quixotic battle with Monsanto, a David and Goliath affair if ever there was >one. > >A year ago, Monsanto put the squeeze on Percy for illegally growing >Monsanto's special, genetically modified canola, called "Roundup Ready." >Monsanto launched a lawsuit against the 68-year-old farmer, who has been >farming in this part of Saskatchewan for 40 years. Now Percy's fighting >back, having launched his own $10 million lawsuit against Monsanto, >accusing the biochemical giant of contaminating his farm. > >It works this way. Monsanto sells its special genetically modified canola >seeds to farmers, but the farmers are not allowed to use the Monsanto seeds >from one crop to grow another crop, which is what farmers traditionally do. >They must buy new seeds from Monsanto every year. > >The selling point for Monsanto's canola is that it can survive Monsanto's >Roundup herbicide, which kills other plants without killing Monsanto's >genetically modified canola. Monsanto now has a new breed of canola called >"Terminator," which produces sterile seeds that can't reproduce. > >Somehow, Monsanto discovered there was Monsanto canola growing on Percy's >1,400-acre spread, so they decided to get tough and make an example of him. >Boy, did the folks at Monsanto pick the wrong guy. They probably didn't >know much about him, like his having been a popular local mayor and an MLA >in the Saskatchewan legislature. I'm sure they didn't know about Percy's >three attempts to climb Mount Everest, getting "only" 23,000 feet up. > >Fifteen kilometres beyond the road to Bruno, I did a U-turn on Highway 5 >and headed back. I had to at least say hello to Percy Schmeiser. When would >I be in the neighbourhood again? Stopped at a farm implement dealership on >the edge of town to ask directions. > >"Hullo!" I shouted inside the open but empty dealership. >"Hullo!" came a distant reply, whereupon a tall man in jeans appeared from >a corner office. > >"Where would I find Percy Schmeiser?" I asked. >"I'm Percy Schmeiser," said Percy Schmeiser. > >When I told him what I knew about Roundup Ready genetically modified >canola, he ushered me outside his dealership, walked to a hydro line, knelt >down and showed me a growth of canary-yellow canola. "This is it," he said, >then he took me to the north side of the building where another shoot of >Roundup Ready genetically modified canola was growing next to the building >in the shade. > >"All over the place," he said. "It blows in the wind, cross-pollinates." He >knelt down and pulled off one of the flowers, popping open a pod of canola, >displaying the freckle-sized, black seeds. "Little plant like this makes a >minimum 4,000 seeds...maybe 10,000 seeds," he said. > >"Now they're not saying I stole their seed," Percy said. "Now they're >saying it doesn't matter how the (Monsanto canola) gets into a farmer's >field. Doesn't matter if it's blown onto the field or if it's by >cross-pollination. They say it's their patent and if they find it on your >field they'll take your crop, they'll sue you, they'll fine you." > >He looks out the window of his cluttered office, across to the railway >tracks, deep in thought - looking for a metaphor, as I soon learn. > >"What if a farmer has a scrub bull?" Percy asked. "And his neighbour's got >a herd of purebred registered cows? Through negligence, the bull gets over >the fence and impregnates his neighbour's cows. Now the guy with the scrub >bull says those calves are his. The cows too! Same thing, eh?" Percy says >he has spent $35,000 in legal fees going up against Monsanto. There was a >mediation hearing on the case in August but it didn't resolve anything, so >Percy and Monsanto are due to meet in court next June 6. Now a >multi-billion antitrust suit has been filed in a U.S. > >Federal Court against Monsanto and other agribusiness companies. > >Monsanto dearly would love to extricate itself from this mess. The David >that is Percy Schmeiser has become a royal pain in the ass to the Goliath >that is Monsanto. > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 2 13:35:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08802 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 13:35:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA29724; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 13:32:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from runningman.mobilixnet.dk ([195.78.82.41]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29428 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 13:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from carol (dialin-107-109.mobilixnet.dk [212.97.200.109]) by runningman.mobilixnet.dk (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA43225 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 19:28:49 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991002184954.008e88c0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> X-Sender: mob34587@mail.mobilixnet.dk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 18:49:54 +0200 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Carol Jensen Subject: Re: looking for BD work In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1882 At 14:36 30-09-1999 EDT, you wrote: >My name is David Weiss. I am 28 and have done organic farming most of my >life. I am looking for a live-in position for me and my perfect companion >Shooz (a lab-collie mix). >I am honest, hard working, dependable and patient with a good sense of humor. >I am also a Vegan and a lover of all life and look to nurture as well as be >nurtured in a healthy, natural, preferably warm (i.e.no wnter) environment. >Please contact me with any further questions or possible living/work >arrangements at your earliest possible convenience at: >weiss_david@hotmail.com >I look forward to hearing from you. >Thank you for your consideration. > How about Denmark, one hour south of Copenhagen, old bd gardener, about 87, needs help desperately. Carol ------------------------------------------------------ E-book compiling, editing and HTML-coding. Also ghostwriting. Were you in Europe during WWII? I want to compile a book of that time. ------------------------------------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 2 13:40:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08863 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 13:40:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00099; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 13:39:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00020 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 13:38:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-27.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.28]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA09307 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 10:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37F6411B.DB376D9D@ap.net> Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 10:30:03 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: David's comment References: <729cc530.2526aad2@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1883 Snarzlak@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/30/99 11:51:29 PM Central Daylight Time, > whirlderv@ap.net writes: > > > > > Time to wake up and get your terms defined. It appears that you are > > confused > > about science and opinion. There is a host of anecdotal, empirical > evidence > > that > > demonstrates the reality of biodynamic effects. A "clash' of opinions is > no > > more > > than just that. Noise. If your opinion is based on rejecting the evidence > > because it was not gathered according to your rules or the sample size was > > not big > > enough for YOU, then it is your problem. The proof is in the pudding as > they > > say. > > The tool of your opinion is blunt indeed unless it is backed up by actual > > experience with the techniques of biodynamics. > > > > Don't be disappointed if the rules of your personally designed "science" > > are > > inadequete to penetrate the depths of BD. Its just the limitation of the > > tool you > > have chosen. One more time for Shakespere, "there are more things in > heaven > > and > > earth than in your philosophy, Horatio". > > > > Best wishes for a truly expanding experience, :o)/David i > > > > My point was simply that there are going to be people in every > branch of learning who are mistaken, ignorant, or in error. Some of these > people are highly respected men of "modern science." Some are politicians. > Some are people who practice biodynamics. I don't know enough about > biodynamics to judge it outright. What I do know, (quite intuitively I might > add) is that some people who practice biodynamics are quite mistaken when > making certain excessive claims. A critical examination of claims and methods > cannot verify every truth, but it can often rule out the hocus-pocus. > Pat reflecting on YOUR words, amigo. " i don't know enough about biodynamics", "what I know, quite intuitively". I just ask that you accept your admission that you don't know, that intuition based on ignorance is not a good tool and you have no grounds to make judgements about "excessive" claims. Your insistance in using the words "hocus-pocus"is a reflection of your pre-judgements. Take a deep intellectual breath and imagine that BD is a true mirror of one of the energetic realities that impinge on mankind. And 75 years of field trials all the world is an effective sieve for the things that do and don't work. Regards, davidi/whirlderv@ap.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 2 14:29:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09268 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 14:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02622; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 14:28:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02508 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 14:26:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-27.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.28]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA11957 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 11:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37F64C4E.33A94F58@ap.net> Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 11:17:50 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Wayne's Overlighting Deva Experience References: <15b58034.2526adbc@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1884 Snarzlak@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/1/99 7:51:57 AM Central Daylight Time, > Essences@LightExpression.com writes: > > > It is difficult to defend against criticism and individual denial when > > dealing with > > issues of the esoteric. Even though BD's value is seen by many and then > > there is the > > issue as to how the applications are in fact implemented that will have > some > > bearing > > on one's positive experience or otherwise with the concept (BD > agriculture). > > At least > > 95% of the public has not awakened to the call of the Divine -- and you > just > > can't > > push. If they are not ready -- they are not ready. > > > > It is of value to assist in this enlightening process by offering some > > insight to > > those who we may encounter -- but you will soon know that there is > interest - > > - or > > there is not interest. And you proceed from there. > > > > Further on David's post -- Dowsing is quite real -- there is even an > > American Society > > of Dowsers where information and tools can be obtained to further one's > > experience. > > One only has to be willing to investigate and the experience will be the > > validation. > > But I have seen people who have seen good and very effective dowsing > > demonstrated and > > still they do not believe it -- or tag it as "black magic". > > Misunderstanding........... > > > > We work with Nature here at our Farm -- and the BD protocol is a part of > the > > program > > on this land (among other protocols). Years ago, we had a very validating > > experience > > here. A local farmer and friend (scientific in protocol), came over to > > discuss the > > planting of a field which had laid fallow through one year. We had > decided > > to plant > > an alfalfa / orchard grass hay field and he said that he would have the Co- > > op to come > > over, test the field, and determine the nutrients which were needed for > the > > new > > planting. Well, as soon as he left that day (and he couldn't have stood > to > > review the > > process that was to follow), Sharon reached for her pendulum; connected > with > > the > > Overlighting Deva (Angel caretaker of the land) of our farm and also the > > Overlighting > > Deva of Soil; asked what nutrients would be appropriate for the transition > > of this > > field. She asked (in her yes / no format) about a few nutrients which > came > > to mind > > and received a "yes" to lime -- one ton per acre in the top two inches of > > the soil > > prior to planting the new crop. > > > > Time went by............... Three weeks later, I called our friend > (farmer) > > and said, > > "Sharon got that we needed one ton of lime in the top two inches of soil > > before > > planting the alfalfa and such." Well, Freddie snapped right back, "DID > YOU > > COME OVER > > HERE AND LOOK AT MY MAIL?" I certainly was not expecting that response. > > Just that > > day, Freddie had received in the mail the report from the Co-op that > stated > > our needs > > for supplements in the new field as -- One ton of lime in the top two > inches > > of soil > > before planting............... > > > > I was so elated at the timing of the information relative to my call and > was > > most > > pleased with the information which we had received from the Angels who > work > > with us -- > > and with everyone for that matter -- whether they recognize the source or > > not. > > > > Divinity is -- Divinity works -- and I am overcome with emotion in > > appreciation for > > this support and realization. > > > > Hope that all has a joyous weekend! > > > > In appreciation........ > > > > Wayne > > > > Wayne....if your soil's pH is a bit acidic, you might need some lime. Any > high school kid with a year of chemistry could determine the pH for the soil. > Now...where do the Arch Angels and Overlighting Devas fit into this equation? > Please expand on this experience. > Pat Pat: Everything you need to know is on the bookshelf at any Theosophical Society in the USA. The topic is psychometry . Also consider radionics. Consider extending your search to akashic records. A call to Fields Book Store on Polk Street in San Francisco would help too, ask for their catalog. Reading the story of "Findhorn" would at least expose you to some pertinent concepts. And simply, a pendulum is a psychometric tool used to facilitate the gathering of information. It is a communication device. In this story, the simple "reading" was proven to be as accurate as "scientific" testing at the Co-op. Your high school kid is not pertinent to the discussion. Cheers, d. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 2 19:24:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12253 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 19:24:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA20263; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 19:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA19834 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 19:20:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Snarzlak@aol.com Received: from Snarzlak@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hMOZ0cmN0X (4556) for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 19:19:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <53c18040.2527ed0a@aol.com> Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 19:19:38 EDT Subject: Honest biodynamics or a THUNK! on the head? To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 27 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1885 To those of you with a sincere interest in harmonious farming methods, advancing the body of human learning, and spiritual growth please accept my apologies while I verbally THUNK! a couple (unnamed) subscribers on the head. Like I said earlier; I do not know enough about biodynamics to judge it in it's pure, truthful form. Nowhere in my posts have I put down biodynamics. What I did say, and what I will state again even more thoroughly for those of you who blatantly misconstrue my words is that there are going to be people in every branch of learning who are mistaken, ignorant, or in error. Some of these people are highly respected men of "modern science." Some are politicians. Some are people who practice biodynamics. Some people are honestly mistaken (no blame) and some people are just plain FULL OF SHIT (blameworthy). Again, I have nothing bad to say about an honest methodology or practice of Biodynamics. A critical examination of claims and methods cannot verify every truth- (meaning that I'm certain many BD methods actually work quite well even though I can't fully explain why). But a critical examination can often rule out the "hocus-pocus" (meaning that the people who are blameworthy will eventually be exposed). Now if there is anyone willing to advance an honest approach and methodology to farming, becoming a responsible steward to the earth, culture, and the body of human learning, I'm all ears. For those of you who are honestly mistaken in any erroneous claims I hold no grudge. For those of you who are full of shit, you will eventually be found out. (THUNK!) Pat From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 3 00:25:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA14999 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 00:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA27048; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 00:24:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAB26860 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 00:19:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-17.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.50]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA07815 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 21:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37F6D753.4ED5172B@ap.net> Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 21:11:00 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Wayne's Overlighting Deva Experience References: <15b58034.2526adbc@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1886 Snarzlak@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/1/99 7:51:57 AM Central Daylight Time, > Essences@LightExpression.com writes: > > > It is difficult to defend against criticism and individual denial when > > dealing with > > issues of the esoteric. Even though BD's value is seen by many and then > > there is the > > issue as to how the applications are in fact implemented that will have > some > > bearing > > on one's positive experience or otherwise with the concept (BD > agriculture). > > At least > > 95% of the public has not awakened to the call of the Divine -- and you > just > > can't > > push. If they are not ready -- they are not ready. > > > > It is of value to assist in this enlightening process by offering some > > insight to > > those who we may encounter -- but you will soon know that there is > interest - > > - or > > there is not interest. And you proceed from there. > > > > Further on David's post -- Dowsing is quite real -- there is even an > > American Society > > of Dowsers where information and tools can be obtained to further one's > > experience. > > One only has to be willing to investigate and the experience will be the > > validation. > > But I have seen people who have seen good and very effective dowsing > > demonstrated and > > still they do not believe it -- or tag it as "black magic". > > Misunderstanding........... > > > > We work with Nature here at our Farm -- and the BD protocol is a part of > the > > program > > on this land (among other protocols). Years ago, we had a very validating > > experience > > here. A local farmer and friend (scientific in protocol), came over to > > discuss the > > planting of a field which had laid fallow through one year. We had > decided > > to plant > > an alfalfa / orchard grass hay field and he said that he would have the Co- > > op to come > > over, test the field, and determine the nutrients which were needed for > the > > new > > planting. Well, as soon as he left that day (and he couldn't have stood > to > > review the > > process that was to follow), Sharon reached for her pendulum; connected > with > > the > > Overlighting Deva (Angel caretaker of the land) of our farm and also the > > Overlighting > > Deva of Soil; asked what nutrients would be appropriate for the transition > > of this > > field. She asked (in her yes / no format) about a few nutrients which > came > > to mind > > and received a "yes" to lime -- one ton per acre in the top two inches of > > the soil > > prior to planting the new crop. > > > > Time went by............... Three weeks later, I called our friend > (farmer) > > and said, > > "Sharon got that we needed one ton of lime in the top two inches of soil > > before > > planting the alfalfa and such." Well, Freddie snapped right back, "DID > YOU > > COME OVER > > HERE AND LOOK AT MY MAIL?" I certainly was not expecting that response. > > Just that > > day, Freddie had received in the mail the report from the Co-op that > stated > > our needs > > for supplements in the new field as -- One ton of lime in the top two > inches > > of soil > > before planting............... > > > > I was so elated at the timing of the information relative to my call and > was > > most > > pleased with the information which we had received from the Angels who > work > > with us -- > > and with everyone for that matter -- whether they recognize the source or > > not. > > > > Divinity is -- Divinity works -- and I am overcome with emotion in > > appreciation for > > this support and realization. > > > > Hope that all has a joyous weekend! > > > > In appreciation........ > > > > Wayne > > > > Wayne....if your soil's pH is a bit acidic, you might need some lime. Any > high school kid with a year of chemistry could determine the pH for the soil. > Now...where do the Arch Angels and Overlighting Devas fit into this equation? > Please expand on this experience > > Pat Pat: Everything you need to know is on the bookshelf at any Theosophical Society in the USA. The topic is psychometry . Also consider radionics. Consider extending your search to akashic records. A call to Fields Book Store on Polk Street in San Francisco would help too, ask for their catalog. Reading the story of "Findhorn" would at least expose you to some pertinent concepts. And simply, a pendulum is a psychometric tool used to facilitate the gathering of information. It is a communication device. In this story, the simple "reading" was proven to be as accurate as "scientific" testing at the Co-op. Your high school kid is not pertinent to the discussion. Cheers, d. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 3 05:14:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA16641 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 05:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA05117; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 05:12:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cgi.icon.co.za (cgi.icon.co.za [196.35.95.41]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAB05031 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 05:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail450.icon.co.za (smtp.icon.co.za [196.35.95.40]) by cgi.icon.co.za (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727E0466EE for ; Sun, 03 Oct 1999 11:10:36 +0200 (SAST) Received: from mark (a1-jhb-28.dial-up.net [196.26.223.28]) by mail450.icon.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA02193 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:09:19 +0200 (GMT) Message-ID: <005301bf0d7f$232ca7c0$bd25fea9@mark> From: "Mark Bennett" To: References: Subject: Re: looking for BD work Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:10:21 +0200 Organization: Boolean Consulting CC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1887 ----- Original Message ----- From: Kimberlie Cole To: Sent: Thursday, September 30, 1999 8:59 PM Subject: Re: looking for BD work Hi all, In response to David Weiss' request for bd work, I thought this a good forum to introduce a project being developed in South Africa. I am a member of a charitable organization called ROKPA which was founded by a Tibetan Lama, Akong Rinpoche. They currently run 160 projects world wide. We have purchased 64 hectares near Groot Marico in the Nort West Province of South Africa. This is the origin of many Herman Charles Bosman stories. The area is particularly pristine and unpolluted. Our activities will include anything which benefits the wellbeing of body and mind. A non-sectarian health care centre is being designed and our intentions are to become as self sufficient as possible. We don't want to become involved in livestock farming for slaughter but will attempt to use bd and permaculture methods wherever possible. We are looking at a feng shui architect to design buildings which will have a reduced impact on the environment and enhance the health of the occupants. We are in the early stages of development but would like input from anyone who wants to contribute. Permanent staff positions will also become available in the near future. Thanks > My name is David Weiss. I am 28 and have done organic farming most of my > life. I am looking for a live-in position for me and my perfect companion > Shooz (a lab-collie mix). > I am honest, hard working, dependable and patient with a good sense of humor. > I am also a Vegan and a lover of all life and look to nurture as well as be > nurtured in a healthy, natural, preferably warm (i.e.no wnter) environment. > Please contact me with any further questions or possible living/work > arrangements at your earliest possible convenience at: > weiss_david@hotmail.com > I look forward to hearing from you. > Thank you for your consideration. ! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 3 10:52:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18141 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 10:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14566; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 10:51:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14350 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 10:46:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d148.infoserve.net [199.175.157.148]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA02093 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 07:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000c01bf0dae$dd50e4c0$949dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF / Fw: GEN10-3 Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 07:51:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1888 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Sunday, October 03, 1999 7:28 AM Subject: GEN10-3 > >posted by Tom Lalley, Program Director, Environmental Media Services >tlalley@ems.org > >MAIL ON SUNDAY >September 19, 1999 Pg. 43 > Frankenfish wiping out wild salmon >William Lowther > > STRAINS of farm-bred fish developed to grow fat quickly are threatening >to drive Britain's majestic wild salmon into extinction. Millions of >modified fish have escaped into the Atlantic from offshore farms in Europe >and America. > >And the new strains are mating with wild salmon, polluting their gene pool >and producing hybrids that can't survive in the open ocean. Don >Staniford, of the Scottish office of Friends of the Earth, said yesterday: >'Wild salmon are nearly extinct in a number of Scottish regions and rivers >where they used to be plentiful. There's certainly a link between the >decline of our wild salmon and the escape of these farm-bred fish. It's >genetic pollution.' > >Sue Scott, of the Atlantic Salmon Federation in New Brunswick, Canada, >added: 'The farm fish are bred to be fat and lazy. Their genes have been >manipulated by crossbreeding to produce a fish that grows quickly. 'They >are kept in huge pens in the open ocean off the coast of New Brunswick and >the coast of Maine in the States. And over the last few years millions of >them have escaped into the Atlantic. ' > >Wild salmon are muscular and built to make a long voyage into the ocean and >back.But over the longer term the farm fish can't survive in the ocean and >neither can the offspring of wild salmon and farm fish. The resulting fish >can't make the rigorous migration and that's one of the reasons the wild >salmon are being wiped out.' > >Selective breeding with salmon strains from all over the world means that >farm fish are much bigger than their wild cousins. 'In fact, they're so >big they look like footballs,' said federation president Bill Taylor. And >scientists believe female wild salmon choose the bigger males for mating. > > >Miss Scott blamed unrestrained commercialism, saying: 'The problem is that >governments have let salmon farming industry grow without regulation.' In >the US, two major environmental groups Defenders of Wildlife and Trout >Unlimited are suing the Federal Government in an effort to force them to >put Atlantic salmon on the endangered species list. > >........ > >Edmonton Journal >Thursday, September 30, 1999 p. H1 >Genetic crops growing issue on farms: > >Changes bring benefits but also new challenges BY Mairi MacLean, Journal >Business Writer Just last year, few people other than farmers were familiar >with the phrase ``genetically modified crops.'' Now public interest is >blossoming, GM is becoming a buzzword and farmers are keeping an eye on the >headlines, where a debate about the safety of those crops is gaining >profile by the day. It's an issue that hits close to home. > >Health Canada has approved 42 crops with genetically engineered ``novel >traits,'' including corn, tomato, potato, soybean, cottonseed, flax, squash >-- and canola. About 60 per cent of Western Canada's canola acreage this >year has been genetically modified to resist certain brands of herbicide. > >And as canola has become the prairies' multimillion-dollar ``cinderella'' >crop since it was first developed from rape seed in the mid-1960s, it's an >issue with potential to hurt producers' already-strained pocketbooks. >``Although genetic modification may be of benefit to industry and >producers, if consumers don't value it, there is no ultimate benefit to >producers,'' says Rod Scarlett, farmer and executive director of Wild Rose >Agriculture Producers. > >....... > >09/30 Japan To Proceed With GMO Labeling >By Irene Marushko >MONTREAL (Reuters) - Japanese Agriculture Minister Shoichi Nakagawa said >Thursday that Japan would implement mandatory labeling for food containing >genetically modified organisms (GMOs), but he declined to comment on the >move's impact on imports. Japan, which Nakagawa described as the world's >largest importer of food products, intends to require labeling starting in >2001 in response to concerns by consumer groups. "We have decided that >labeling should be done universally in Japan for GMOs," Nakagawa told >Reuters. >........... > >Sunday INDEPENDENT (London) Oct 3, 1999 > >EXPERT ON GM DANGER VINDICATED > >By Geoffrey Lean > >The scientist who suggested that genetically modified foods could damage >health - and was comprehensively rubbished by Government ministers and the >scientic establishment as a result - is to have his reputation dramatically >vindicated.. > >Britain's top medical journal, The Lancet is shortly to publish Arpad >Puzstai's research showing changes in the guts of rats fed with GM >potatoes. This will reignite fears that eating GM foods may endanger human >health. > >The Government has sought to discredit Dr Puzstai's work on the grounds >that it has not been published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Other >scientists have made similar claims and attacked it as "flawed" and >unpublishable. > >Publication of the article will encourage other scientists to try to repeat >the experiments, kickstarting further scientific investigation into whether >GM foods pose a threat to health or not. > >Galley proofs of the article have already been sent to Dr Puzstai, and his >co-author Dr Stanley Ewen, SeniorLecturer in Pathology at Aberdeen >University. Late last week David McNamee, the journal's Executive Editor, >said that it will be published "soon." > >The research is important because few papers have so far been published on >the health effects of GM foods, despite the rapidity with which they spread >onto supermarket shelves. Indeed Dr Puzstai - who was travelling in europe >last week and unable to comment on the news - began his experiments becuise >he could find only one previous peer-reviewed study, led by a scientist >from Monsanto, the GM food giant, which had found no ill-effects. > >He started three years research - funded by the Scottish Office to the tune >of #1.6 million - at Aberdeen's Rowett Research Institute as a >self-confessed "very enthusiastic supporter" of GM technology, who fully >expected his experiments to give it "a clean bill of health." > >The 68 year-old scientist, who has published 270 sceintific papers and is >acknowledged as the leading authority in his field, fed rats on three >strains of genetically engineered potatoes and one ordinary one. In his >first full interview, after being gagged by his institute, he told the >Independent on Sunday last March; " I was absolutely confident I wouldn't >find anything. But the longer I spent on the experiments, the more uneasy I >became." > >His findings sparked public concern, and ignited a furious row about GM >foods, after he briefly mentioned them, with the Institute's permission, on >a television programme last year. They contradicted repaeted assurances >from the Prime Minister down, that GM food is safe, and undermined the >assumption behind the regulation of genetically altered crops that there is >no substantial difference between them and their conventional equivalents. > >Despite his eminence, Dr Puztai - who came to Britain after the suppression >of the 1956 Hungarian rising beacuse of the country's "tolerance" - >underwent one of the most extraodinary treatments ever meeted out to a >reputable scientist. > >He was suspended from his work on the experiments, his computers were >sealed, his data confiscated and he found himself "sent to Coventry" by his >colleagues. He was forced into retirement and forbidden to talk about his >work. > >He came under comprehensive attack from ministers and the scientific >establishment. Sir Robert May, the Government's Chief Scientific Adviser, >accused him of violating "every canon of scientific rectitude". The Royal >Society claimed that his work was "flawed in many aspects of design, >execution and analysis" and said that "no conclusions could be drawn from >it." And Professor Tom Sanders, of Kings College, London. said that none of >the major scientific journals would publish the research. > >Ministers enthusiastically joined in. Cabinet enforcer Dr Jack Cunningham, >who is in charge of the Government's GM strategy, said Dr Pusztai's work >had been "comprehensively discredited" , and top Downing Street advisers >consistently stressed it should be disregarded because it had not been >published in a peer-reviewed journal. > >Dr Pusztai retorted that he was eager to publish, and pointed out that the >scientific criticism was based on incomplete information that he had put on >the internet at the Institute's request, while being denied full access to >his data, which was only released to him this spring. >........ > >Independent on Sunday 3 Oct 1999 >Editorial > >Monsanto has been filling the world's fields and shops with its unnatural >products. >Now it is in full retreat - and wonders where it went wrong > >By Geoffrey Lean > >It was the biggest birthday surprise that Patrick Holden had ever had. On >the day he turned 49 last month, the head of Britain's organic farming >movement - long derided by the food industry as a collection of cranks >practising in "muck and magic" agriculture - found his leading opponents >sitting figuratively at his gumbooted feet. > >Hendrik Verfaillie, president of the GM giant Monsanto, and four of his >most senior colleagues had asked to see the director of the small >Bristol-based Soil Association in order to find out where his company had >gone wrong. Goliath had come to learn from David; Mohammed had come to the >compost-heap. > >Contrary to some reports early last week, Monsanto did not offer a U-turn >on planting genetically modified crops in Britain, though it did raise >ideas for co-operating with organic farmers. The truth is both more >complicated and more intriguing. For the world's leading biotech company >was embarking - in four secret meetings with British environment and >consumer organisations - on a unilateral peace process. > >The next key encounter will come on Wednesday, when Mr Verfaillie's boss, >Monsanto's chairman Bob Shapiro - the chief evangelist of GM foods - flies >into Britain to address a Greenpeace conference. His speech will give an >indication of how far Monsanto is really prepared to go and of how much >what its executives learnt at the meetings has sunk into the corporate mind. > >For, as The Independent on Sunday reported four weeks ago, anguished debate >has been raging through the upper reaches of the St Louis-based >multinational. Senior company sources say that a powerful group is wanting >to stop trials of GM crops in the UK altogether while others, including Mr >Shapiro, say they must continue. > >Everyone agrees that the company has taken a terrible battering. Less than >two years ago it seemed to be carrying everything before it. Its crops were >rapidly spreading onto the world's fields and supermarket shelves, it was >riding rough-shod over opponents, and it was enjoying the uncritical >support of two of the world's most powerful Governments - those of Britain >and the United States. > >But now it is in full retreat, its products rejected, its share price well >down, and even the American heartland that forms the foundation of its >business is now increasingly at risk. It seems to be able to do nothing >right. Last week it announced that it had found plants that could make a >green plastic to be put on compost- heaps to rot, only for >environmentalists to accuse it of trying to spin its way out of trouble and >to point out that genes from the new plants could spread to contaminate >others. > >Last month's meetings, held in London at the Dorchester Hotel, were >arranged at Monsanto's request by the Environment Council, a body >specialising in getting together opposing sides in fierce fights over green >issues. Mr Verfaillie (whose official title is chief operating officer) was >joined by Hugh Grant, co-president of the company's agricultural sector, >Kate Fish, director of public policy for the whole company, and Charlotte >Walliker, director of agriculture for Britain and Ireland. They met >delegations from Friends of the Earth, English Nature and the Consumers' >Association, as well as the Soil Association. > >Mr Holden, an adviser to the Prince of Wales, said that the Monsanto >executives were clearly "personally affected" by what they had heard. He >added: "They said they had never heard the arguments before." > >Charles Secrett, executive director of Friends of the Earth, agrees: "There >is no question that what we said came as a revelation to them," he said. >"They were wanting to learn. They listened very carefully and asked >intelligent questions. You could see closed minds beginning to open." > >Tony Combes, Monsanto's director of corporate affairs in the UK, says that >the company intends "to continue the dialogue". He adds: "We believe it is >crucial to listen to public concerns about the introduction of this >technology to the UK." > >Can this be the same company that built up a formidable reputation for >threatening and bullying those who criticise it? What has humbled it? >Answer: the long reach of the British housewife. > >For the seemingly unstoppable spread of GM foods has been forced into >reverse by shoppers simply refusing to buy them. In just three years, until >this spring, the proportion of supermarket products containing GM >ingredients - mainly soya - had soared from zero to 60 per cent. Now they >are being swept off the shelves again. > >The crucial point was the last week in April when Unilever, Nestle and >Cadbury all announced that they were phasing out GM products in the face of >customer resistance. Tesco and the Co-op did the same, joining the other >big supermarket chains. As The Independent on Sunday predicted at the time, >non-GM soya and other cereals suddenly became valuable commodities as the >big companies started scouring the world for them so as to fulfil their >pledges. The same sort of thing has been happening all over Europe and in >Japan, which is expected to buy twice as many non-GM soya beans this year >as last. Japan and Europe between them buy about a fifth of the United >States crop, and so the relentless logic of market forces is beginning to >force a green revolution across the Atlantic as well. > >Conventional cereals are now commanding a higher price than GM ones. >Suddenly US food processors who had long insisted that it was impossible to >separate GM and non-GM cereals found that they could do so, and simple >tests are being developed to distinguish between them. Some stores are even >saying they will accept only conventional cereals and are advising farmers >not to plant GM ones. > >Market analysts are predicting that "a two-tier market" will develop, with >the price of GM material "collapsing". This is beginning to force a rethink >by US farmers who until now have embraced GM crops enthusiastically: half >of all the soya and over a third of the maize grown in the country has now >been genetically engineered. Iowa farmer Ed Wiederstein says: "If nobody >wants it, I'll definitely change. There's going to be a real scramble if >that occurs." > >There are also signs that American public opinion, which has long accepted >GM crops, is beginning to turn against them, facing Monsanto with the >prospect of losing not just their European and Japanese markets but the >home one that it has long been able to take for granted. > >The catalyst was the finding, reported this summer, that caterpillars of >the beautiful and much-loved monarch butterfly - described by the >Washington Post as the "Bambi of the insect world" - can be poisoned by GM >maize. Protests against GM crops have begun (there was one last week at the >homely Hoe Down Harvest Festival in Guinda, California), and crop >destructions by activists - common here but previously unknown in the US - >have begun to erupt all over the country in the last three months. > >"The fire-storm of controversy in Europe has spread around the world and >its sparks have landed in the US," says Sano Shimada, president of the >Bioscience Securities in California. > >Worst still for Monsanto and other giant biotech and seed companies, a >series of lawsuits is about to be filed by US environmentalists and farmers >in 30 countries, accusing them of trying to get a stranglehold on the >agricultural market. > >In the face of all this, Monsanto's share price has fallen and the Deutsche >Bank, Europe's largest, predicts that GM interests, once seen as making a >"bull case" for a company's shares, "will now be perceived as a pariah". No >wonder Monsanto's key executives have suddenly discovered an urgent need to >listen humbly to their opponents. They have been the victims of the most >crushing exercise of consumer power ever seen. > >As Patrick Holden says: "This shows that informed public opinion is still >more powerful than giant corporations backed by some of the most potent >governments on earth." > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 3 23:32:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24448 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 23:32:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03215; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 23:30:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02987 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 23:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net ([207.44.186.234]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA00315 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 20:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37F81C9B.3A41133A@ap.net> Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 20:18:51 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Wayne's Overlighting Deva Experience References: <15b58034.2526adbc@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1889 Snarzlak@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/1/99 7:51:57 AM Central Daylight Time, > Essences@LightExpression.com writes: > > > It is difficult to defend against criticism and individual denial when > > dealing with > > issues of the esoteric. Even though BD's value is seen by many and then > > there is the > > issue as to how the applications are in fact implemented that will have > some > > bearing > > on one's positive experience or otherwise with the concept (BD > agriculture). > > At least > > 95% of the public has not awakened to the call of the Divine -- and you > just > > can't > > push. If they are not ready -- they are not ready. > > > > It is of value to assist in this enlightening process by offering some > > insight to > > those who we may encounter -- but you will soon know that there is > interest - > > - or > > there is not interest. And you proceed from there. > > > > Further on David's post -- Dowsing is quite real -- there is even an > > American Society > > of Dowsers where information and tools can be obtained to further one's > > experience. > > One only has to be willing to investigate and the experience will be the > > validation. > > But I have seen people who have seen good and very effective dowsing > > demonstrated and > > still they do not believe it -- or tag it as "black magic". > > Misunderstanding........... > > > > We work with Nature here at our Farm -- and the BD protocol is a part of > the > > program > > on this land (among other protocols). Years ago, we had a very validating > > experience > > here. A local farmer and friend (scientific in protocol), came over to > > discuss the > > planting of a field which had laid fallow through one year. We had > decided > > to plant > > an alfalfa / orchard grass hay field and he said that he would have the Co- > > op to come > > over, test the field, and determine the nutrients which were needed for > the > > new > > planting. Well, as soon as he left that day (and he couldn't have stood > to > > review the > > process that was to follow), Sharon reached for her pendulum; connected > with > > the > > Overlighting Deva (Angel caretaker of the land) of our farm and also the > > Overlighting > > Deva of Soil; asked what nutrients would be appropriate for the transition > > of this > > field. She asked (in her yes / no format) about a few nutrients which > came > > to mind > > and received a "yes" to lime -- one ton per acre in the top two inches of > > the soil > > prior to planting the new crop. > > > > Time went by............... Three weeks later, I called our friend > (farmer) > > and said, > > "Sharon got that we needed one ton of lime in the top two inches of soil > > before > > planting the alfalfa and such." Well, Freddie snapped right back, "DID > YOU > > COME OVER > > HERE AND LOOK AT MY MAIL?" I certainly was not expecting that response. > > Just that > > day, Freddie had received in the mail the report from the Co-op that > stated > > our needs > > for supplements in the new field as -- One ton of lime in the top two > inches > > of soil > > before planting............... > > > > I was so elated at the timing of the information relative to my call and > was > > most > > pleased with the information which we had received from the Angels who > work > > with us -- > > and with everyone for that matter -- whether they recognize the source or > > not. > > > > Divinity is -- Divinity works -- and I am overcome with emotion in > > appreciation for > > this support and realization. > > > > Hope that all has a joyous weekend! > > > > In appreciation........ > > > > Wayne > > > > Wayne....if your soil's pH is a bit acidic, you might need some lime. Any > high school kid with a year of chemistry could determine the pH for the soil. > Now...where do the Arch Angels and Overlighting Devas fit into this equation? > Please expand on this experience. > Pat Pat: Everything you need to know is on the bookshelf at any Theosophical Society in the USA. The topic is psychometry . Also consider radionics. Consider extending your search to "akashic records." A call to Fields Book Store on Polk Street in San Francisco would help too, ask for their catalog. Reading the story of "Findhorn" would at least expose you to some pertinent concepts. And simply, a pendulum is a psychometric tool used to facilitate the gathering of information. It is a communication device. In this story, the simple "reading" was proven to be as accurate as "scientific" testing at the Co-op. Your high school kid is not pertinent to the discussion. Cheers, d. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 4 12:47:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03486 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:47:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20333; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:45:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19911 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:42:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip017.computer.net [140.186.252.17]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA09358 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:42:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:40:28 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: October 03, 1999 - October 09, 1999 Message-ID: <118FA6B32EC0F62285256800005B8FA7.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA19916 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1890 Calendar of the Soul [October 03, 1999 - October 09, 1999] Twenty-seventh Week (October 6-12) AUTUMN When to my being's depths I penetrate, There stirs expectant longing That self-observing, I may find myself As gift of summer sun, a seed That warming lives in autumn mood As germinating force of soul. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ In meines Wesens Tiefen dringen: Erregt ein ahnungsvolles Sehnen, Dass ich mich selbstbetrachtend finde, Als Sommersonnengabe, die als Keim In Herbstesstimmung wärmend lebt Als meiner Seele Kräftetrieb. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+27 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 4 13:54:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04859 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 13:54:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA29139; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 13:53:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA28901 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 13:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha07s066.d.shentel.net [204.111.54.66]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04020 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:03:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37F8E927.4736F30D@LightExpression.com> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 13:51:35 -0400 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Wayne's Overlighting Deva Experience References: <15b58034.2526adbc@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1891 Snarzlak@aol.com wrote > > Wayne....if your soil's pH is a bit acidic, you might need some lime. Any > high school kid with a year of chemistry could determine the pH for the soil. > Now...where do the Arch Angels and Overlighting Devas fit into this equation? > Please expand on this experience. > Pat Hi Pat! Sorry to be so long getting back to you and the list -- but I have been away at a wonderful gathering -- the Mid-Atlantic BD conference -- lots of good speakers and good people. To help you with your question -- because of the quality of the information and the reliability of the information, we elect to work with the Overlighting Deva of our farm when determining placement of gardens, layout of gardens, soil balancing and most everything concerning the land............ Sure, we could have waited for our neighbor and the lab -- or we could have gotten a test kit and tested our soil. -- but we don't. We want the best information and we like it at that moment. Our neighbor went the scientific route --- it took him three weeks. We did the short route and had the information in 5 minutes. And too, there may well have been other considerations for balancing the soil -- some possibly "energetic" in nature -- which the Soil labs have no way of knowing about. We would have gotten that information at time as well. The area of Earth work is cutting edge (even though these concepts have been used by many for quite some time) -- and is in alignment with the most environmentally correct practices. We also have had a great many other experiences working with Nature which you may find interesting. Thanks for writing. Best! Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 4 15:23:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07129 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:23:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10592; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:21:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10310 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:18:42 -0400 (EDT) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp197.cy-net.net [208.21.195.6]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01129 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:18:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199910041918.OAA01129@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 13:58:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Wayne's Overlighting Deva Experience Priority: normal In-reply-to: <37F8E927.4736F30D@LightExpression.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1892 Wayne's comments about the soil test labs vs his own Deva questions and answers made me think of something that might be relevent here, too. A lot of gardeners get their soils tested or buy a kit and do it themselves which is fine. But, it's fine only as far as it goes. They may show to be ok in areas that the plants actually can't utilize well. Some trace minerals may be plentiful, and show it, but aren't getting to the plant's system. Let's see, a poor example. You're baking bread and add a little salt to the milk before you put the flour and yeast in. You want to serve it with soup but you've added some salt to the soup pot. You see you have some leftover cooked meat (presalted) and chop that to add to the soup pot. Separately, all the ingredients aren't too much salt, but when you dip the bread in your bowl of finished soup, the combination is too salty to eat. I'd like to know more about 'asking the plant's Diva' but basically, I suspect it's very much like looking at the growing plants and determining from their condition, what else might be needed to add to this soup (soil) to keep it from becoming too salty. (minerals bound up so the plant's can't utilize them.) martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 4 17:13:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09811 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:13:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23482; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23045 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:07:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.172]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991004211112.HSR1766967.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:11:12 +1300 Message-ID: <37F917D1.44CA@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 10:10:41 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Wayne's Overlighting Deva Experience References: <199910041918.OAA01129@portal.txcyber.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1893 Re soil tests and devas It is a very rare soil test that indicates that only 1 tonne of lime per acre is all that is needed to balance a soil. Glen A. flylo@txcyber.com wrote: > > Wayne's comments about the soil test labs vs his own Deva > questions and answers made me think of something that might be > relevent here, too. A lot of gardeners get their soils tested or buy a > kit and do it themselves which is fine. But, it's fine only as far as it > goes. They may show to be ok in areas that the plants actually > can't utilize well. Some trace minerals may be plentiful, and show > it, but aren't getting to the plant's system. > Let's see, a poor example. You're baking bread and add a little salt > to the milk before you put the flour and yeast in. You want to serve > it with soup but you've added some salt to the soup pot. You see > you have some leftover cooked meat (presalted) and chop that to > add to the soup pot. Separately, all the ingredients aren't too much > salt, but when you dip the bread in your bowl of finished soup, the > combination is too salty to eat. > I'd like to know more about 'asking the plant's Diva' but basically, I > suspect it's very much like looking at the growing plants and > determining from their condition, what else might be needed to add > to this soup (soil) to keep it from becoming too salty. (minerals > bound up so the plant's can't utilize them.) martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 4 17:27:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10100 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25025; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24561 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:21:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha14s153.d.shentel.net [204.111.53.153]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15392 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:33:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37F91A74.3832CC01@LightExpression.com> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 17:21:56 -0400 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: More on Wayne's Overlighting Deva Experience References: <199910041918.OAA01129@portal.txcyber.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1894 Hi Martha! please read on........ flylo@txcyber.com wrote: > > I'd like to know more about 'asking the plant's Diva' but basically, I > suspect it's very much like looking at the growing plants and > determining from their condition, what else might be needed to add > to this soup (soil) to keep it from becoming too salty. (minerals > bound up so the plant's can't utilize them.) martha We offer a list of nutrients (some 20 or so) at the time of balancing the soil -- usually a fall event in preparation for Spring planting. BD preps is an energetic additive to the equation and these are always suggested as needing to be added (general statement -- but specific preps at the time of offering). Then, in the Spring, we ask again if there is a need for any additional supplements to be added -- and accommodate at that time as well. Usually, we do not ask during the growing season if there is something else to be added as we know that things are in pretty good shape anyway. This year's garden was quite free of insects and the garden was quite vibrant, despite the fact that we were in a severe drought. I will say that we did water where we could -- but that was all at a minimum -- still with practically no insect damage. But, if we became aware of some challenge in the garden during the growing season, we might ask at that time what might be needed in a specific area of the garden. I mentioned in an earlier post that I attended the BD Conference in West Virginia this weekend. I met many very nice and wonderful people (had to say this to pump up their egos -- they are on the list) -- one of those folks that is not on the list is a fellow named Steve Moore. Steve Moore is an excellent grower who specializes in greenhouse and organic farming practices. During his talk, he mentioned that he had (from time to time) challenges with a few insects and such -- and he has helped the conditions with beneficial insects. Some of you may remember that an earlier post of mine where I shared that we stopped the destruction of an alfalfa field (leaf hoppers) by connecting with Nature -- and asking what might be done to curb the damage -- and the message that was received was that we should provide the field with a custom essence solution. For those of you who do not know, the essences which we use are from the various kingdoms (mineral, flower, and such) and Sharon will have her connection with the Overlighting Deva of our Farm and through dowsing using a yes / no format, she selects the essences which are needed for that particular challenge or balancing. For that problem, we saw great success -- the leaf hoppers ceased to cause damage by the next day. Oh -- in application of the remedy, we asked the Nature Spirits to carry the frequency (or intent of the custom solution) through the field that it may balance that field and its inhabitants (leaf hoppers). Anyway, I mentioned this story to Steve (because he form time to time has challenges in his greenhouses) and his eyes drew a focus on the story and he then said to me, "The energetic aspect of gardening and farming is the next frontier in the growing process." And he is right.................. Martha, hope this helps. Best regards! Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 4 17:28:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10143 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:28:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25152; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:27:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24786 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha14s153.d.shentel.net [204.111.53.153]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15500 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37F91AE6.C679AC42@LightExpression.com> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 17:23:50 -0400 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Wayne's Overlighting Deva Experience References: <199910041918.OAA01129@portal.txcyber.com> <37F917D1.44CA@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1895 Hi Glen! please read on........ Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > Re soil tests and devas > > It is a very rare soil test that indicates that only 1 tonne of lime per > acre is all that is needed to balance a soil. > Glen, we will take that as compliment........ Best regards! Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 4 17:30:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10157 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:30:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25373; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA25117 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha14s153.d.shentel.net [204.111.53.153]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15664 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37F91BB0.15E64B8D@LightExpression.com> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 17:27:12 -0400 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Wayne's Overlighting Deva Experience References: <199910041918.OAA01129@portal.txcyber.com> <37F917D1.44CA@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1896 Pardon me -- but I should also that the alfalfa field which Glen and I are referring to in this writing is still a very strong alfalfa / grass field after eight years -- with no additional supplements added outside of the energetic work which is regularly performed on the farm. best to all......... Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 4 21:03:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA13854 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 21:03:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17687; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 21:00:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rmx07.globecomm.net (rmx07.iname.net [165.251.8.75]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15872 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web08.pub01 by rmx07.globecomm.net (8.9.1/8.8.0) with SMTP id UAA12066 ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <383611874.939084805680.JavaMail.root@web08.pub01> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:53:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Wayne's Overlighting Deva Experience Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.161.18.162 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1897 In a message dated 10/1/99 7:51:57 AM Central Daylight Time, Essences@LightExpression.com writes: > > A local farmer and friend (scientific in protocol), came over to > > discuss the > > planting of a field which had laid fallow through snip > > Sharon reached for her pendulum; connected with > > the > > Overlighting Deva (Angel caretaker of the land) of our farm and also the > > Overlighting > > Deva of Soil; asked what nutrients would be appropriate for the transition of this field. snip > > I was so elated at the timing of the information relative to my call and was most > > pleased with the information which we had received from the Angels who work > > with us -- > > and with everyone for that matter -- whether they recognize the source or > > not. > > > > Divinity is -- Divinity works -- and I am overcome with emotion in > > appreciation for this support and realization. > Wayne....if your soil's pH is a bit acidic, you might need some lime. Any > high school kid with a year of chemistry could determine the pH for the soil. > Now...where do the Arch Angels and Overlighting Devas fit into this equation? > Please expand on this experience. > Pat Um, Pat, it's another way of describing prayer. Some people have learned to trust their intuition/inspiration more than any high school kid with a science kid, or even someone with a master's degree and a science kit. If I had apprentices working and learning in my garden, I certainly would include training in intuition development right along with training in developing good soil. You can use a pendulum, your little finger, your heart, or your soul. You can ask the nature spirits, the "powers that be" if you have no other focus, your land deva if you know her, your guardian angel, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, God the Mother, God the Daughter, God the Holy Soul. It's all prayer, listening prayer. Lift up your eyes and bring Spirit to your soil. Of course, I don't believe the Divine created our brains for no purpose. But when I'm working intensely in my garden, I'm not always remembering the things I've learned from books. I've never been precise building my compost, yet it has transformed hard clay subsoil into beds that nurture some beautiful beings of the plant kingdom, which in turn nurture me, my family, and my few CSA members. I do read whatever I can get my hands on, but if you put me in a room full of scientifically-oriented gardeners, I'd be swimming in confusion. So perhaps, being who I am, I just naturally turned to listening as I garden. I can vouch for intuitive gardening. Not only has it helped me decide where to place trees, shrubs, flowers, and veggies. It has made the entire process easier and more satisfying. When I pull a weed, I thank it for its existence, and ask that it contribute its essence back to the soil by first joining the compost. When I get creative and decide to play musical plants, I've learned to first ask the chosen subject if it is willing to live in the desired location. And with all the rocks I've had to move around here (central Idaho) the process was never easier than when I finally became aware that rocks, too, are alive and deserve our awareness. Yesterday, I began a process of raising the level of our southwest corner, and needed to move some huge boulders down there. I dowsed to find which were willing to move, then asked in the name of Christ (whatsoever ye ask) if they would move easily for us. My 12-year-old son and I then moved them easily half an hour later, and it took much less time than we thought it would, with less stress on our bodies. It certainly put a new spin on the verse about how faith can move a mountain! He's a left-brainer if ever there were one, a firm believer in modern science who puts up with his mother's methods of living. Yet he, too, was impressed with how easily those rocks rolled into place. Am I a dreamy, romantic tree-hugger? Well, I'm too busy planting them to hug them, but I cherish them all the same. And being aware of the life force in each plant makes me more grateful for the sacrifice of their lives when I eat them. I'm amazed at the people who refuse to eat meat as a moral choice, leaving aside the nutritional question, who don't think twice about chomping down a big, hearty, ALIVE salad. Pat, you may decide I'm just a crazy lunatic, and maybe you're right. Heck, I've already been labeled a neurotic on this list; maybe she was right, too! But I can say firmly, if I were given a choice between 1) a big new farm, a huge library, a brain full of "knowledge" and no intuition, or 2) my (or any) little garden with no books and the awareness I've already gained, I'd choose the little garden with intuition anytime. I'm sure you could go through my entire letter and argue point by point according to science, and you're more than welcome. But I think I'll continue trusting the Divine Scientist to guide my way. Pam DeTray ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 4 21:04:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA13927 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 21:04:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17869; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 21:01:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rmx04.globecomm.net (rmx04.iname.net [206.253.130.33]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA16279 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web08.pub01 by rmx04.globecomm.net (8.9.1/8.8.0) with SMTP id UAA13508 ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:54:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <382474825.939084873843.JavaMail.root@web08.pub01> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:54:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: More on Wayne's Overlighting Deva Experience Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.161.18.162 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1898 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern We offer a list of nutrients (some 20 or so) at the time of balancing the soil -- usually a fall event in preparation for Spring planting. BD preps is an energetic additive to the equation and these are always suggested as needing to be added (general statement -- but specific preps at the time of offering). Wayne, do you mean you might use one of the compost preps by itself, for example? Could you be more specific, perhaps tell what you've used the last few years in this regard? I'm curious to know how long you've been involved with biodynamics. Have you and Sharon studied the properties of the preps, as well as other energetic additives you use, to add a left-brain component to your work with the devas? Thanks, Pam ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 5 08:58:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20110 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:58:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00367; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:57:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00124 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha07s059.d.shentel.net [204.111.54.59]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10781 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:06:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37F9F4EA.3296D074@LightExpression.com> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 08:54:03 -0400 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: More on Wayne's Overlighting Deva Experience References: <382474825.939084873843.JavaMail.root@web08.pub01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1899 please read on.......... Pam DeTray wrote: > From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern > We offer a list of nutrients (some 20 or so) at the time of balancing the > soil -- usually a fall event in preparation for Spring planting. BD preps > is an energetic additive to the equation and these are always suggested as > needing to be added (general statement -- but specific preps at the time of > offering). > > Wayne, do you mean you might use one of the compost preps by itself, for > example? Could you be more specific, perhaps tell what you've used the last > few years in this regard? > I'm curious to know how long you've been involved with biodynamics. Have you > and Sharon studied the properties of the preps, as well as other energetic > additives you use, to add a left-brain component to your work with the > devas? > We are not specifically concerned about the intellectual aspects of the properties of the preps -- just when to use what. For us -- there are just too many things to do to bury head deep into Steiner. Don't get me wrong -- I have great admiration for Steiner and his work -- but we are doers -- and we there is a lot to do :-) We all of the BD preps as they are suggested -- when stirring -- we have made a connection the Overlighting Deva of our Farm / Garden -- and do a coning (additional connection) with the Overlighting Deva of BD preps while stirring -- so that we properly energize the prep to the degree needed (say, not necessarily and hour -- or not necessarily 20 minutes) -- when complete. One thing which comes up for us every time that we use the preps (stirring and such), is that we are to add either a custom essence solution which is prepared for that particular occasion -- or an in house essence which has been requested to be added to the Energy Garden -- say at planting time (seedling placement or at seed planting time). We find great success in the ability of the seedlings to be successful with this treatment. Seems to lessen the "shock" of transplanting. We have been using the BD preps for about 3 years. Best to all! Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 5 11:56:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24183 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:56:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18657; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:54:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18382 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:52:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Snarzlak@aol.com Received: from Snarzlak@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hSBa024736 (2614) for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:51:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <76bf64b3.252b789a@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:51:54 EDT Subject: Re: Monsanto Terminates the "Terminator" seeds To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 27 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1900 There's a full article in the New York Times on the subject. (Probably also at the NY Times website.) Although Monsanto said they would not market Terminator technology, they and other companies will continue to do research in the area of seed sterility technology because there are many applications. Keep a watchful eye. Pat From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 5 13:13:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26067 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA27439; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:11:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CLEMSON.EDU (mail.clemson.edu [130.127.28.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA27189 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from teresa_pc ([130.127.54.95]) by CLEMSON.EDU (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA03438 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19991005091423.00984500@mail.clemson.edu> Message-Id: <4.1.19991005091423.00984500@mail.clemson.edu> Message-Id: <4.1.19991005091423.00984500@mail.clemson.edu> X-Sender: twlsn@mail.clemson.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 12:08:45 -0400 To: From: Teresa Wilson Subject: Re: Wayne's Overlighting Deva Experience Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1901 Not to take away from Wayne and Sharon's work.... Machaelle Small Wright has also been doing this kind of work for almost 20 years. I recently finished reading her books documenting the process. They're worth a read even if you just check them out of the library. _Perelandra Workbook:A Complete Guide to Gardening with Nature Intelligences_ and _Perelandra Garden Workbook II : Co-Creative Energy Processes for Gardening, Agriculture and Life_. I'm designing my 10-acre Eden based on this process (9 acres forested). Since I just bought the land, I'm in the planning process now. Hope to start in the spring after the road is in with actual hands on stuff. As an aside, I'm a biologist and was "classically trained" as most scientists are at major public universities. But my personal experience in life has shown me that the Perelandra experience works, as I'm sure BD does. I just haven't had the opportunity to use BD. Teresa From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 5 14:38:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27794 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:38:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08026; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:37:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07542 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:33:26 -0400 (EDT) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp271.cy-net.net [208.21.195.80]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28817 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:33:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199910051833.NAA28817@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:45:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Perelandra Priority: normal In-reply-to: <4.1.19991005091423.00984500@mail.clemson.edu> In-reply-to: <4.1.19991005091423.00984500@mail.clemson.edu> In-reply-to: <4.1.19991005091423.00984500@mail.clemson.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1902 Ok, THAT's what Wayne's posts reminded me of! I have had a link to Perelandra on my garden pages for some time. Find the whole concept fascinating, and the site itself very interesting. http://www.perelandra-ltd.com/ Sorry, I haven't figured out yet how to make my links hyperlinked in this program (Pegasus). If anyone knows, would appreciate the help. Otherwise, everyone will have to go back to the old copy and paste to get to the web site from this e-mail martha From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 5 15:47:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29544 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:47:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16648; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:45:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16414 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:44:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha18s196.d.shentel.net [204.111.21.196]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29285 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:56:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37FA551F.8F61E332@LightExpression.com> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 15:44:31 -0400 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Wayne's Overlighting Deva Experience References: <4.1.19991005091423.00984500@mail.clemson.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1903 Hi Teresaa and all! please read on....... Teresa Wilson wrote: > Not to take away from Wayne and Sharon's work.... Machaelle Small Wright > has also been doing this kind of work for almost 20 years. I recently > finished reading her books documenting the process. Right -- we live about an hour from the Wrights and we learned the process with which we work by first reading Machaelle's work. She provides a good basis from which to work. She advocates kinesiology and we use dowsing as our tool for communication -- seems to work better for us. We also work "a little more loose" with the protocol (as I suppose she would suggest for a seasoned Nature worker) because there are other things which sometimes come into play energetically -- this is basically to say that we work with the basic process, then ask -- what else? -- and listen and the intuitive idea comes to mind -- we check with the intuitive tool -- and that becomes the plan for the garden and / or farming project. > . But my personal > experience in life has shown me that the Perelandra experience works, as > I'm sure BD does. I just haven't had the opportunity to use BD. We found that Nature wishes us to incorporate BD as a part of the program. I am sure that you will find success with that. And, as you have read -- go to a step further and use essences and other energetic considerations in the process with heighten the experience. High Vibrational Food grown in an super organic process! Best! Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 5 16:33:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01012 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:33:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22061; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:31:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.mcn.org (mail.mcn.org [204.189.12.25]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21604 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.189.8.132 (ha-2e-men-m068.mcn.org [204.189.8.132]) by mail.mcn.org (8.9.0/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA24526 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37F9F0F8.5854@mcn.org> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 12:37:12 +0000 From: Kate Clarke Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Foxglove Farm (707) 937-4116 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: looking for BD work References: <3.0.5.32.19991002184954.008e88c0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1904 To the young Farmer looking for work. Call me at (707) 937-4116 California time. Small BD certified farm looking for the right people for 99-00 season and beyond. Just achieved land ownership of this 14 year old organic / BD land in ocean foothills of Mendocino. Half hour from senic village, lots of community, been here 13 years but never thought I"de be able to own or stewart land. Lots of established trade and money to be made. Not why I do it but still must pay mortgage. Woman owned and farmed. Will establish Waldorf secondary School and Farm institute in next 3 years. Kate Clark at Foxglove Farm Earth Touching Institute From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 5 19:11:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04039 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:11:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA07468; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:10:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop06.iname.net (pop06.iname.net [165.251.8.76]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07378 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:09:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gardener.com (96.charlotte-23-24rs.nc.dial-access.att.net [12.77.33.96]) by pop06.iname.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA23655 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:09:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37FA847C.AA03786F@gardener.com> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 19:06:36 -0400 From: David Dodge Organization: Blue Ridge Serenity Manor X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Perelandra References: <199910051833.NAA28817@portal.txcyber.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------337F3AB5F4E21B6981AC7048" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1905 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------337F3AB5F4E21B6981AC7048 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm using Netscape 4.5 and right click on the site address and click open in new window. --------------337F3AB5F4E21B6981AC7048 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="ddhort.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for David Dodge Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ddhort.vcf" begin:vcard n:Dodge;David x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Blue Ridge Serenity Manor adr:;;P O Box 2030;Skyland;NC;28776-2030;USA version:2.1 email;internet:ddhort@gardener.com tel;fax:704/628-0949 tel;home:704/628-9842 tel;work:500/447-5660 x-mozilla-cpt:;0 fn:David Dodge end:vcard --------------337F3AB5F4E21B6981AC7048-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 6 13:11:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19925 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:11:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23610; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23275 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:06:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id hRYTa25662 (4366) for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <68a304fb.252cdb98@aol.com> Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:06:32 EDT Subject: Fwd: [women-enviro] Re: Environmental impacts on women To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_68a304fb.252cdb98_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1906 --part1_68a304fb.252cdb98_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Friends, Where can the person writing the following get information on biodynamics for Pakistan? (As you can see I am following the women-enviro link as suggested by BDNOW) Christine In a message dated 99-10-06 11:10:41 EDT, firdous_altaf@hotmail.com writes: << Subj: [women-enviro] Re: Environmental impacts on women Date: 99-10-06 11:10:41 EDT From: firdous_altaf@hotmail.com (Firdous Altaf) Sender: owner-women-enviro@phoenix.edc.org Reply-to: women-enviro@phoenix.edc.org To: women-enviro@phoenix.edc.org Dear WomenWatch group, I just want to share some findings about farmer women in Pakistan. In Pakistan, farmer women's work is completely invisible. The landlords do not trust farmer women. If a woman does not have a husband, the landlord will not give her land for cultivation. Another difficult thing is farmer women have no knowledge about the harmful affects of chemical pesticides. Due to this lack of knowledge they are losing their health (during cotton picking). Some pregnant women have miscarriages and they lose premature children. Through our research study, we found there is economical implications of pesticides, as well. Women have lost a lot of their livestock from this harmful affect of pesticides, because women are responsible for the rearing of live stock and they haven't enough knowledge about it. We are doing advocacy on two main issues. One is to recognize farmer women's work, and the second is to make women aware of the harmful effects of chemical pesticides. We are also advocating to stop chemical pesticide and chemical fertilizer use. To replace them, we will introduce some alternative, environmentally friendly pesticide, like the use of Neem seed oil. Firdous Altaf Pakistan >> --part1_68a304fb.252cdb98_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (rly-zc01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.1]) by air-zc04.mail.aol.com (vx) with ESMTP; Wed, 06 Oct 1999 11:10:41 -0400 Received: from phoenix.edc.org (phoenix.edc.org [155.38.10.9]) by rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (v61.13) with ESMTP; Wed, 06 Oct 1999 11:10:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by phoenix.edc.org (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id LAA11280; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:09:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199910061509.LAA11280@phoenix.edc.org> X-Authentication-Warning: phoenix.edc.org: majordom set sender to owner-women-enviro@mail.edc.org using -f Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 10:40:30 -0700 From: Firdous Altaf To: women-enviro@phoenix.edc.org Subject: [women-enviro] Re: Environmental impacts on women Sender: owner-women-enviro@phoenix.edc.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: women-enviro@phoenix.edc.org Dear WomenWatch group, I just want to share some findings about farmer women in Pakistan. In Pakistan, farmer women's work is completely invisible. The landlords do not trust farmer women. If a woman does not have a husband, the landlord will not give her land for cultivation. Another difficult thing is farmer women have no knowledge about the harmful affects of chemical pesticides. Due to this lack of knowledge they are losing their health (during cotton picking). Some pregnant women have miscarriages and they lose premature children. Through our research study, we found there is economical implications of pesticides, as well. Women have lost a lot of their livestock from this harmful affect of pesticides, because women are responsible for the rearing of live stock and they haven't enough knowledge about it. We are doing advocacy on two main issues. One is to recognize farmer women's work, and the second is to make women aware of the harmful effects of chemical pesticides. We are also advocating to stop chemical pesticide and chemical fertilizer use. To replace them, we will introduce some alternative, environmentally friendly pesticide, like the use of Neem seed oil. Firdous Altaf Pakistan --- Women-Enviro is hosted by WomenWatch, United Nations. To post a message, send it to: women-enviro@mail.edc.org To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message to: majordomo@mail.edc.org. In the 1st line of the message, type: subscribe women-enviro OR type: unsubscribe women-enviro Archives can be found at: http://sdnhq.undp.org/ww/women-enviro/ --part1_68a304fb.252cdb98_boundary-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 6 14:45:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22493 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:45:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05667; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:44:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05343 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.01300E08@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:41:16 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 6 Oct 99 14:41:10 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 6 Oct 99 14:40:59 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:40:50 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: (Fwd) Re:Special offer to small farmers and ranchers CC: Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA05353 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1907 Hi All! Below is a message that I have offered to post to the bdnow! list as I think it is a valuable asset for the farmers among us. I know that this is the slow season for internet use since it's still the busy season for farming, so if you know of someone who isn't on line at the moment but could benefit from this, please bring it to his/her attention. Hope it will prove useful! Kind regards to all, Anita ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 11:09:43 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-to: glenn@smallfarms.com News you can use: smallfarms.com, the small farmer marketing web site, is offering free, one year registrations to small farmers and ranchers. This offer should take most of you through next year’s harvest. See www.smallfarms.com for more detailed information. Please remember that small farmers and ranchers do not need computers to register or use this system. (Those of you with computers may assist non-computerized friends for speed and convenience. A written form is also available at the site.) This special program is part of our efforts to put the face and the voice of small farmers and ranchers on their products. Feel free to forward this message and to post it elsewhere. (I’d appreciate knowing where it’s post this by separate e-mail.) glenn Buy from the Farmer www.smallfarms.com p.s. For the academics, scholars and staff of organizations who may see this, I know that some of you farm on the sly. Join us. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 6 16:24:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24672 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:24:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA19793; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kirk.hoy.net (dns1.hoy.net [205.235.2.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19436 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gabicho ([205.235.2.28]) by kirk.hoy.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA36242 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:19:43 -0500 Message-ID: <02bf01bf1033$76902d40$1f02ebcd@gabicho> From: gabicho@hoy.net (gabicho) To: "biodinamics" Subject: volcanic ashes Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:46:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_02BC_01BF1011.EEABFB00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1908 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02BC_01BF1011.EEABFB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Could some one tell what to do with volcanic ashes, yesturday some = farmers receive 20 tons of volacnic ashes per ha, now we have rain. some ideas are welcome about biodynamics and volcanic ashes, I enclose = the analysis info. regards elements in % by weight SiO2 63.45 =20 TiO2 0.40 =20 Al23 16.41 =20 F2O3 5.39 =20 MnO 0.1 =20 Mng 2.46 =20 CaO 5.11 =20 Na2O 4.28 =20 K2O 1.78 =20 P2O5 0.30 =20 H2O+ 0.30 =20 H2O- 00 =20 Total 99.98 =20 =20 Elementos traza (ppm) Nb 3 =20 Zr 90 =20 Y 9 =20 Sr 545 =20 Rb 44 =20 Zn 42 =20 Cu 30 =20 Ni 225 =20 Ce 16 =20 La 8 =20 Ba 821 =20 =20 gabriel espinosa hda.la alegria aloag-ecuador gabicho@hoy.net ------=_NextPart_000_02BC_01BF1011.EEABFB00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Could some one tell what to do with = volcanic=20 ashes, yesturday some farmers receive 20 tons of volacnic ashes per ha, = now we=20 have rain.
 
some ideas are welcome about biodynamics and = volcanic ashes, I=20 enclose the analysis info.
regards
 

elements in % by weight

SiO2

63.45

TiO2

0.40

Al23

16.41

F2O3

5.39

MnO

0.1

Mng

2.46

CaO

5.11

Na2O

4.28

K2O

1.78

P2O5

0.30

H2O+

0.30

H2O-

00

Total

99.98

Elementos traza (ppm)

Nb

3

Zr

90

Y

9

Sr

545

Rb

44

Zn

42

Cu

30

Ni

225

Ce

16

La

8

Ba

821

gabriel espinosa
hda.la=20 alegria
aloag-ecuador
gabicho@hoy.net
------=_NextPart_000_02BC_01BF1011.EEABFB00-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 6 22:15:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA29890 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA28911; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from moose.erie.net (moose.erie.net [208.138.204.11]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28744 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erie.net (pm7-29.erie.net [208.1.140.93]) by moose.erie.net (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA10386 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:11:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37FC02E3.96B6367A@erie.net> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 22:18:11 -0400 From: Mark Winschel Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" Subject: Teresa's land Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1909 Teresa: Since you're in the planning process with your 19 acres I was wondering if you're familiar with "permaculture" design techniques? I'm impressed with the ideas that this type of land design strategy offers for people who are interested in developing sustainable systems i.e., food & energy production by using the unique characteristics of their particular land/area. There are a lot of sources for the knowledge - good books, journals, websites, etc... That is of course if, making your land more capable of providing for more and more of your living needs by creating systems that support each other and "ideally" require less human effort is on your list of priorities right now :) Here's a website for browsing on this subject if anyone's interested: http://www.permaculture-hawaii.com/links.html Mark From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 7 01:26:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA02949 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 01:26:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA13430; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 01:25:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13175 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 01:21:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.18] (pm3shep4-163-165.intrepid.net [209.190.163.165]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA17352 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 01:22:18 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:20:54 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: [Fwd: Biodynamic Agriculture] Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1910 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Biodynamic Agriculture Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 22:09:19 -0400 From: Annette Smith Reply-To: pursebox@sover.net To: Robert Chambers References: <000301becb45$0e6785c0$a409b3d1@00xqm-sia> Biodynamic Agriculture Annette Smith Guest Columnist In the Summer of 1987, I attended the annual meeting of the American Society of Dowsers in Danville, Vermont. The keynote speaker was Christopher Bird, author of The Secret Life of Plants. He spoke about his the book he was working on, Secrets of the Soil, and described with contagious enthusiasm the art of farming and gardening using the Biodynamic method. I was intrigued. I went home and bought a cow. Two years later, when Secrets of the Soil was published, I bought it, too, along with several other mostly incomprehensible books about Biodynamic agriculture. Ten years later, I am beginning to understand Biodynamics. What ultimately has made it understandable was going to the source, reading "Agriculture" by Rudolf Steiner. A series of lectures given to farmers in the 1920's, near the end of Steiner's life, "Agriculture" describes the method that has come to be known as "Biodynamics" in a surprisingly accessible manner, even when translated from the German. German farmers approached Steiner and asked him to come up with solutions to problems they were having with declining fertility and increasing pest problems. His solutions were, to put it mildly, unconventional. They were interpreted and refined, tested and studied by German farmers and scientists to an extreme that developed into so many rules that a naive young American like myself who just wanted to learn how to do it was intimidated to the point that I was afraid I would do something wrong so I never even tried. So unusual were Steiner's methods that for a time some effort was made to try to keep them secret. I have jokingly referred to them as voodoo or witchcraft. But Biodynamic farming is beginning to make a lot of sense. In his lectures, Steiner makes reference to the methods used by peasants for centuries, back when people instinctively knew how and when to do certain things. This information was passed down from generation to generation, but was lost in the modern industrial age as people lost their connection to the land. Peasant farmers made use of plants, minerals, and animals that were common. They knew that if seed was sown around the full moon, it would sprout and grow more readily than when sown between the moon phases. They knew that beyond the moon were the planets, and they also had an influence on plants and the life of the soil. Steiner spoke about the cosmic forces enlivening the soil. He described how to make what have come to be known as "preparations" by combining materials commonly found on farms and doing things to them that enhanced reproduction and growth of plants. One day last fall I set out to make a Biodynamic compost pile. It was all still theory, but I was willing to try. And as I was collecting the material to build my pile, I began to understand. Everywhere I looked on my farm there were the elements of the Biodynamic preparations: yarrow, valerian, chamomile, dandelions, oak bark, stinging nettle, equisetum, manure, quartz crystals, cow horns, a cow mesentery, a cow intestine, a stag bladder, and a skull. Perhaps not common, everyday items in your neighborhood, but here on my subsistence farm I have found all the ingredients of Biodynamic agriculture growing like weeds or tossed aside at butchering time. For my first Biodynamic compost pile I purchased a set of the preparations and inserted them according to the instructions after building a pile of layers of garden waste, dying weeds, egg shells, soil, manure, layer after layer until it was the height and trapezoidal shape shown in the drawing. It was a pleasant way to spend an afternoon and clean up the garden. In the spring, I uncovered the pile and to my surprise found some pretty decent compost which I spread on the garden beds. The crops look great. I added some of the Biodynamic compost to my potting soil mix and the container plants are looking fine, too. In addition to the preparations that are inserted into the compost pile, there is a preparation known as "500" to be sprayed on the soil and another called "501" to spray on foliage. I made my own 500 last fall by filling cow horns with manure and burying them in the ground for the winter so that the cosmic forces that are the strongest in winter could have the best effect. The substance that I removed from the horns in the spring is nothing like the fresh manure I began with. Before spraying 500 on the soil, it must be activated by stirring for an hour, first clockwise, then counter-clockwise, creating a vortex before changing direction. Why bother filling cow intestines with chamomile flowers or stag bladders with yarrow blossoms or skulls with oak bark? The results are the healthiest plants ever seen. The food is more nourishing, more alive. There are fewer pests and diseases. My method of farming has always involved using what is at hand, not buying in extra fertilizers or supplements. Biodynamic agriculture is a natural extension of that philosophy. But it is also accessible to the backyard gardener, the greenhouse grower, the container gardener. Preparations and information can be purchased from The Josephine Porter Institute for Applied Bio-Dynamics, P.O. Box 133, Woolwine, Virginia 24185, (540) 930-2463. William Ross, Container Gardening Editor, welcomes your submissions via regular mail or e-mail. If you are growing usual or unusual fruits by common or uncommon methods, we would like to hear from you. William Ross, 791 Baker Brook Rd., Danby, VT 05739, pursebox@sover.net. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 7 01:27:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA02957 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 01:27:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA13488; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 01:25:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13193 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 01:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.18] (pm3shep4-163-165.intrepid.net [209.190.163.165]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA17367 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 01:22:26 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:20:44 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FW: Biodynamic Agriculture Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1911 Dear Biodynamic folks, I recently had an article published in the California Rare Fruit Growers Society Magazine, Fruit Gardener. I just received the following response. CRFG is a society made up of a lot of people in academia and some very serious fruit growers and I'd hate to have them think Biodynamics is voodoo and witchcraft. Perhaps you could respond with some "Scientific Evidence". I'll send you what I wrote in another e-mail. Thanks. Annette Smith (802) 446-2094 ---------- From: "Torre-Bueno" To: Subject: Biodynamic Agriculture Date: Wed, Oct 6, 1999, 1:11 AM Dear CRFG friends: How very disappointed I was to read the article on "Biodynamic Agriculture" in the September/October issue of Fruit Gardener. I've come to rely on the CRFG for straightforward and reliable information on growing plants, and this piece of new age nonsense surely does not belong in any reputable publication. The author heard about Biodynamic Agriculture at a dowsing meeting - if that didn't give CRFG the opportunity to question her credibility, I'm very surprised. No scientific evidence of any sort exists to support the claims of dowsers to be able to find water (or anything else). Further, the author states that peasant farmers knew that "the planets... also had an influence on plants and the life of the soil." What claptrap! She also claims that "cosmic forces that are the strongest in winter could have the best effect" on her plants. Not one whit of scientific evidence supports ANY of these paranormal notions. I'd like to know by what precise criteria the author claims that food grown using these methods is "more nourishing, more alive"? What scientific tests has she done to compare such food to food grown by other means? I urge you to apply at least one simple test to all such articles in the future, which claim that mysticism has any effect whatsoever on the real world: when you hear hoof beats, think horses, not unicorns. The magazine Skeptical Inquirer is an excellent publication for people seeking information about the claims for such paranormal things as dowsing and the effect of planets on food crops, and I hope you will take out a subscription. Sincerely, Susi Torre-Bueno From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 7 12:11:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09903 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:11:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15518; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15040 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:06:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.126.195]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991007161225.RLRT1738993.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 05:12:25 +1300 Message-ID: <37FCC5EB.4047@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 05:10:19 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: volcanic ashes References: <02bf01bf1033$76902d40$1f02ebcd@gabicho> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1912 gabicho wrote: > > Could some one tell what to do with volcanic ashes, yesturday some > farmers receive 20 tons of volacnic ashes per ha, now we have rain. > > some ideas are welcome about biodynamics and volcanic ashes, I enclose > the analysis info. > regards > Dear gabiocho I live and work upon about 200 feet of volcanic ash from the NZ Rotorua region. I use to see a volcano puffing from my porch. We had a similiar ash cloud a few years ago , only 2 tonne / ha though and it was genrally considered very beneficial for the farming community. We had quite high Zn and so no facial eczema for a few years. 20 t/ha is quite alot. What is your underlying soil? It would probably help to work it into the fields were possible. The Strontium and Barium look to be the only elements I would be concerned about. Strontium I know pushes out the Ca and Mg. Barium is on the same arm of the periodic table as all these three so, more of the same. With the Si, Fe and Al being very high I suspect it will turn your soil quite acidic. Na is high which will also push out the Ca & Mg. So sourcing some Dolomite (Ca 24% & Mg 12% ) could be a good move. Once the soil has been , harrowed, or disced etc rained upon and left for a month or so, I would do another soil test and see where your mineral staus is and begin applying what is needed to bring the mineral balance back. A cover crop of some high yielding organic matter could be good to bring up your humus and CEC again. The rain, while making a mess will probably help wash it in and so on. Just a suggestion. cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 7 12:12:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09915 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:12:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15590; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:11:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15351 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:09:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.126.195]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991007161447.RMAM1738993.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 05:14:47 +1300 Message-ID: <37FCC679.3470@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 05:12:41 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: volcanic ashes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1913 Oops forgot After tilling apply BD preps (even monthly x3), again before and after green manure. GA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 7 14:00:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12335 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:00:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA29306; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:58:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA28974 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:56:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-254.s254.tnt1.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.254]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id NAA04451 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37FCB5D5.37FA85F1@erols.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 11:01:41 -0400 From: Rex Harrill X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Wayne's Overlighting Deva Experience References: <199910041918.OAA01129@portal.txcyber.com> <37F917D1.44CA@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1914 Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > Re soil tests and devas > > It is a very rare soil test that indicates that only 1 tonne of lime per > acre is all that is needed to balance a soil. Not that rare... I work with balancing soils a la' Albrecht and often find a "tonne" (2000 pounds?) is appropriate. Actually, many of the low CEC soils (think sand) routinely require from 300-1000 pounds per year to function best. Anything more will be leached out. Dr. Arden Andersen (one of my agricultural heroes) recommends liming, even on heavier loams, be restricted to what he calls "fertilizer quantities," say, 500 pounds or so. The soil is the plant's stomach and balance, indeed, should be the keyword. Regards, Rex Harrill From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 7 14:33:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12882 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:33:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02528; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:32:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rmx02.mail.com (rmx02.mail.com [165.251.32.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02439 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:31:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web08.pub01 (web08.pub01.mail.com [165.251.32.18]) by rmx02.mail.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA18330 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <385337170.939321136502.JavaMail.root@web08.pub01> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:32:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: RE: volcanic ashes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.161.18.175 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1915 ------Original Message------ From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sent: October 7, 1999 4:12:41 PM GMT Subject: volcanic ashes Oops forgot After tilling apply BD preps (even monthly x3), again before and after green manure. GA Which preps, and how, Glen? PSD ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 7 15:28:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13966 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:28:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08834; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:21:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA08421 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:18:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.210]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991007192419.SYLA1738993.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:24:19 +1300 Message-ID: <37FCF2E5.BB3@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 08:22:13 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: volcanic ashes References: <385337170.939321136502.JavaMail.root@web08.pub01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1916 Pam DeTray wrote: > > ------Original Message------ > From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Sent: October 7, 1999 4:12:41 PM GMT > Subject: volcanic ashes > > Oops forgot > > After tilling apply BD preps (even monthly x3), again before and after > green manure. > > GA > > Which preps, and how, Glen? > > PSD All of them, except possibly 501 initially. There is a alot of Si and other acidics in the ash, so my guess is more alkalinity is needed, or just to balance it, note the high Na. I would be using Etherics 1000, however Trad BD would be using 500 and barrel compost. The aim is to intergrate the inert ash and any mineral balancers into the soil and activate the microbiology. cheers Glen A > > ----------------------------------------------- > FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com > Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 7 15:28:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13974 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:28:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08778; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:21:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07884 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:13:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.210]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991007191846.SWRP1738993.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:18:46 +1300 Message-ID: <37FCF197.5429@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 08:16:39 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Wayne's Overlighting Deva Experience References: <199910041918.OAA01129@portal.txcyber.com> <37F917D1.44CA@xtra.co.nz> <37FCB5D5.37FA85F1@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1917 My comment was more that Ca alone is rarely all that is needed. If not other major elements to bring in the cation balance, then trace elements of one kind or another are often low or out of balance. This is "in my experience". Glen A. Rex Harrill wrote: > > Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > > > Re soil tests and devas > > > > It is a very rare soil test that indicates that only 1 tonne of lime per > > acre is all that is needed to balance a soil. > > Not that rare... I work with balancing soils a la' Albrecht and often find a > "tonne" (2000 pounds?) is appropriate. Actually, many of the low CEC soils > (think sand) routinely require from 300-1000 pounds per year to function > best. Anything more will be leached out. Dr. Arden Andersen (one of my > agricultural heroes) recommends liming, even on heavier loams, be restricted > to what he calls "fertilizer quantities," say, 500 pounds or so. The soil is > the plant's stomach and balance, indeed, should be the keyword. > > Regards, > Rex Harrill From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 7 15:54:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14452 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:54:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12540; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rmx08.globecomm.net (rmx08.iname.net [165.251.8.85]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12419 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:52:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web08.pub01 by rmx08.globecomm.net (8.9.1/8.8.0) with SMTP id PAA09470 ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <383471803.939325983230.JavaMail.root@web08.pub01> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:53:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: volcanic ashes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.161.18.184 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1918 All of them, except possibly 501 initially. There is a alot of Si and other acidics in the ash, so my guess is more alkalinity is needed, or just to balance it, note the high Na. I would be using Etherics 1000, however Trad BD would be using 500 and barrel compost. The aim is to intergrate the inert ash and any mineral balancers into the soil and activate the microbiology. What about putting volcanic ash onto alkaline soil? What would you recommend there? Pam ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 7 21:12:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20856 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAB21798; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub2.une.edu.au (postfix@[129.180.4.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA21608 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:03:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Enveng-dforster.une.edu.au (enveng-dforster.une.edu.au [129.180.135.50]) by mailhub2.une.edu.au (Postfix) with SMTP id F3BAE4148; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:02:57 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991008110351.007bea60@metz.une.edu.au> X-Sender: dforster@metz.une.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 11:03:51 +1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dianne Forster Subject: Ancient Chinese Agriculture In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1919 Hello people interested in biodynamics. Has anyone out there heard of or seen of a set of volumes of Ancient Chinese Agriculture - maybe not so ancient. Some years ago a professor of agriculture leant me four slim volumes of agriculture that he had been presented by a university in China when he visited that country on study leave for 9 months. They set out what we know today as biodynamic farming. One page had the Chinese letters and the facing page the English translation. Word for word almost, it set out how to farm using the forces of the universe. Every planets appearance had a corresponding influence on what to do on this planet. Burying of cow horns full of manure etc. etc. I returned the volumes to my friend, who lent them to someone else who hasn't returned them. My professor friend in the meantime is ill and doesn't remember who has them. They were a wonderful set of volumes and would compliment Steiner's knowledge if someone could access them direct from China. Does anyone have any contacts in that part of the world? I will look forward to hearing. Deanna From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 7 21:25:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21267 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:25:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24994; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:23:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rmx02.mail.com (rmx02.mail.com [165.251.32.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24437 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:19:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web11.mail.com (web11.pub01.mail.com [165.251.32.21]) by rmx02.mail.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA15240 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:20:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <380467311.939345614966.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:20:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: RE: Ancient Chinese Agriculture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.161.18.151 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1920 Deanna, If it's ok with you, I could pass this along to my FengShui list. I'm sure someone there might know how to acquire this set, as a lot of them read/write/speak Chinese, and some live in Asia. Pam ------Original Message------ From: Dianne Forster To: bdnow@envirolink.org, bdnow@envirolink.org Sent: October 8, 1999 1:03:51 AM GMT Subject: Ancient Chinese Agriculture Hello people interested in biodynamics. Has anyone out there heard of or seen of a set of volumes of Ancient Chinese Agriculture - maybe not so ancient. Some years ago a professor of agriculture leant me four slim volumes of agriculture that he had been presented by a university in China when he visited that country on study leave for 9 months. They set out what we know today as biodynamic farming. One page had the Chinese letters and the facing page the English translation. Word for word almost, it set out how to farm using the forces of the universe. Every planets appearance had a corresponding influence on what to do on this planet. Burying of cow horns full of manure etc. etc. I returned the volumes to my friend, who lent them to someone else who hasn't returned them. My professor friend in the meantime is ill and doesn't remember who has them. They were a wonderful set of volumes and would compliment Steiner's knowledge if someone could access them direct from China. Does anyone have any contacts in that part of the world? I will look forward to hearing. Deanna ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 8 00:30:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA23639 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 00:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA28389; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 00:25:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kirk.hoy.net (dns1.hoy.net [205.235.2.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27258 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 00:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gabicho ([205.235.2.82]) by kirk.hoy.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA42330; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:08:34 -0500 Message-ID: <002401bf113e$255909e0$5202ebcd@gabicho> From: gabicho@hoy.net (gabicho) To: "biodinamics" Subject: Fw: foto erupcion Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:35:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF111C.9DFCA540" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1921 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF111C.9DFCA540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Montufar To: gabicho Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 10:06 PM Subject: foto erupcion ---------- From: "Carlos Montufar" To: Montufar Casa Subject: FW: foto erupcion Date: Thu, Oct 7, 1999, 4:54 PM -- Carlos Montúfar, Ph.D. Vice Canciller Universidad San Francisco de Quito Esta es una foto del inicio de la erupción de esta mañana. (Ha sido proporcionada por Caty Torres N. -- Kerr-McGee Ecuador Energy Corporation --Administrative Department. 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LFAsUCxQ31DhUCzi4OHhUCzgUOFQUCzgUOBP4FBQLODg4N9QLFBQLCtQ4FArUCzgK9/gUN5Q KyxQLNzlBwfo6OVXV1fj4+Ug6Acg6OgHB+kHB+gH6AcHBwfo5lfl5ubn5ufm5+bm5yCDB+gH g+jn6IPpBx/pHx+urSBYLd3yLC0tLN7g4VAs4FDhUCvgUOFQ4OHhUCxQ31AsUN9QLCwsUN9Q 31DfUCxQLFDfUN9Q31DfUN9QLFDfUCzgK1DfUCxQLFDfUCss3lAsLCxQ31DfUN9Q31DfUN9Q 31DfUN9Q31AsLN9PLCwrUCvgK1As4CtQ31ArLN9Q31DfUN9Q31DeUCssLFArUCzgK1DfUCvg K1DeUCvgK1As4CtQ31ArLN9QKywr3yssK1DfUCvfKywrUCwsK1ArLN5QKyzeUN8sK1DfUN9Q KywrUCssKywrUCssKywrUCssK+AlLCssKywr4CUsKywrLCssKywrLCssLFArLCssKywrLCss Kywr3yssK94rLCssKywrLCtQKywrLCssKywrLCssK98r3yssKywr3ytQKywrLCvfKywlK98r 3ysrLCUrK98rKyssKysr3ysrKywrLCvfK98r4CUrK98rLCUrKywlKyveK1ArLCssK98rKyXe K94r3yvfK98r3yveK98r3yvfK98rLCXfK+ArLCvfJSwrLCssKywrLCssKywrLA== ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF111C.9DFCA540-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 8 02:01:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA24878 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 02:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA03754; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:59:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA03565 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.109.58]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991008012416.YNKR1738993.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:24:16 +1300 Message-ID: <37FD4740.50ED@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 14:22:08 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: volcanic ashes References: <383471803.939325983230.JavaMail.root@web08.pub01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1922 > What about putting volcanic ash onto alkaline soil? What would you > recommend there? > > Pam > Hummmm, volcanic ash on clay soil could be ok. But it all depends on the ash and what it is, with regard pH nutrient staus etc. So many variables makes a glib yes difficult. sorry. Glen A. > ----------------------------------------------- > FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com > Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 8 03:39:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA25537 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 03:39:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA07481; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 03:37:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA07373 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 03:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-92.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.92]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA30021 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:35:24 +1000 Message-ID: <00c001bf115f$62093880$59431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: [women-enviro] Re: Environmental impacts on women Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:34:03 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1923 Dear Christine, Peter Proctor and Rachel Pomeroy are in India and Sri Lanka at present teaching and training teachers. Peter can be contacted on email pproctor@inhb.co.nz or pproctor8@hotmail.com He will be there until February and may be able to help your friends. Cheryl Kemp. . -----Original Message----- From: Lilipoh@aol.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, 7 October 1999 3:16 am Subject: Fwd: [women-enviro] Re: Environmental impacts on women >Dear Friends, >Where can the person writing the following get information on biodynamics for >Pakistan? (As you can see I am following the women-enviro link as suggested >by BDNOW) >Christine > >In a message dated 99-10-06 11:10:41 EDT, firdous_altaf@hotmail.com writes: > ><< Subj: [women-enviro] Re: Environmental impacts on women > Date: 99-10-06 11:10:41 EDT > From: firdous_altaf@hotmail.com (Firdous Altaf) > Sender: owner-women-enviro@phoenix.edc.org > Reply-to: women-enviro@phoenix.edc.org > To: women-enviro@phoenix.edc.org > > Dear WomenWatch group, > > I just want to share some findings about farmer women in Pakistan. In > Pakistan, farmer women's work is completely invisible. The landlords > do not trust farmer women. If a woman does not have a husband, the > landlord will not give her land for cultivation. > > Another difficult thing is farmer women have no knowledge about the > harmful affects of chemical pesticides. Due to this lack of knowledge > they are losing their health (during cotton picking). Some pregnant > women have miscarriages and they lose premature children. > > Through our research study, we found there is economical implications > of pesticides, as well. Women have lost a lot of their livestock from > this harmful affect of pesticides, because women are responsible for > the rearing of live stock and they haven't enough knowledge about it. > > We are doing advocacy on two main issues. One is to recognize farmer > women's work, and the second is to make women aware of the harmful > effects of chemical pesticides. We are also advocating to stop > chemical pesticide and chemical fertilizer use. To replace them, we > will introduce some alternative, environmentally friendly pesticide, > like the use of Neem seed oil. > > Firdous Altaf > Pakistan > >> > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 8 05:47:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA26144 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 05:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA12290; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 05:45:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA12210 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 05:44:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.82] (pm3shep4-163-179.intrepid.net [209.190.163.179]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA19064 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 05:44:47 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:50:37 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD: smallfarms.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id FAA12211 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1924 >Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 18:00:13 -1000 >From: Glenn >Reply-To: glenn@smallfarms.com >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: Allan Balliett >Subject: Re: smallfarms.com > >Dear Allan: > >Will you spread the word on the following offer? > >glenn > >News you can use: > >smallfarms.com, the small farmer marketing web site, is offering free, >one year registrations to small farmers and ranchers. This offer should >take most of you through next year’s harvest. See www.smallfarms.com >for more detailed information. Please remember that small farmers and >ranchers do not need computers to register or use this system. (Those >of you with computers may assist non-computerized friends for speed and >convenience. A written form is also available at the site.) > >This special program is part of our efforts to put the face and the >voice of small farmers and ranchers on their products. > >Feel free to forward this message and to post it elsewhere. (I’d >appreciate knowing where it’s post this by separate e-mail.) > >glenn >Buy from the Farmer >www.smallfarms.com > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 8 05:58:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA26205 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 05:58:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA12698; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 05:57:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA12564 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 05:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.82] (pm3shep4-163-179.intrepid.net [209.190.163.179]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA19965 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 05:53:53 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002401bf113e$255909e0$5202ebcd@gabicho> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 18:00:22 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: ADMIN: Re: Fw: foto erupcion Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1925 Folks - A reminder: please do NOT post attachments to BD Now! If you have a picture you'd like to show everyone on the list and you don't have access to webspace, just contact me, Allan Balliett, off-line and I'll publish your picture for your on the net. (The same goes for text attachments.) Many members of this list, like myself, for example, have slow, low bandwidth connections. Heaving a 200k graphic onto an email download can become a very trying experience. (Especially for a busy man!) In addition, sending a graphic to a list propagates the bytes of the graphic and becomes a large, unnecessary draw on net resources. This was an incredible picture, I'm glad that I got a chance to see it. In the future, please, everyone, just ask me and I'll publish your pic for you. Thanks -Allan Balliett csa@claymont.org From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 8 11:36:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00341 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:36:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05087; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04747 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:32:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 63.23.28.107 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:32:31 -0700 Message-ID: <002c01bf11a3$26334960$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: Ancient Chinese Agriculture Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:38:19 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1926 Deanna, I would be very interested in these books. Please let me know any additional clues on them and I too would be glad to help find copies. Is it possible that you are referring to ? by Dr. F.H.King (Professor of Agricultural Physics at U of Wisconsin and later Chief of the Division of Soil Management USDA) who in the early years of this century went to China, Korea and Japan for several years, studied their farming methods and wrote this incredible book in 1911? Although it does not contain any references to cow horns stuffed with manure, it does describe composting, crop rotations, companion planting and herbal medicines for plants and animals. It was written in English originally, but translated back into Chinese. Often such books appeared in dual-language format in the early part of the century. Just a thought. Cheers Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 8 11:54:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00797 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:54:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07355; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:52:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07063 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:50:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.182] (pm3shep4-163-182.intrepid.net [209.190.163.182]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA12850 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:50:55 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002c01bf11a3$26334960$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:57:46 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Ancient Chinese Agriculture Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1927 >Deanna, > >I would be very interested in these books. Please let me know any additional >clues on them and I too would be glad to help find copies. > >Is it possible that you are referring to ? by >Dr. F.H.King (Professor of Agricultural Physics at U of Wisconsin and later >Chief of the Division of Soil Management USDA) who in the early years of >this century went to China, Korea and Japan for several years, studied their > farming methods and wrote this incredible book in 1911? Although >it does not contain any references to cow horns stuffed with manure, it does >describe composting, crop rotations, companion planting and herbal medicines >for plants and animals. It was written in English originally, but translated >back into Chinese. Often such books appeared in dual-language format in the >early part of the century. Just a thought. > >Cheers >Andrew While anything is possible, I have never seen this book offered in a dual-language format, let alone in a multi-volume set. Let's keep looking! -Allan csa@claymont.org From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 8 13:10:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02009 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15225; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rmx08.globecomm.net (rmx08.iname.net [165.251.8.85]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15105 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:04:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web14.mail.com by rmx08.globecomm.net (8.9.1/8.8.0) with SMTP id NAA11559 ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <380794465.939402276076.JavaMail.root@web14.mail.com> Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:04:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Ancient Chinese Agriculture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.161.18.199 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1928 >Is it possible that you are referring to ? by >Dr. F.H.King (Professor of Agricultural Physics at U of Wisconsin and later >Chief of the Division of Soil Management USDA) who in the early years of >this century went to China, Korea and Japan for several years, studied their > farming methods and wrote this incredible book in 1911? While anything is possible, I have never seen this book offered in a dual-language format, let alone in a multi-volume set. Let's keep looking! -Allan csa@claymont.org I just did a web search on Farmers of Forty Centuries. I hit gold with Looksmart http://www.looksmart.com/r?comefrom=nspanel-search&search=1&key=%22Farmers+of+Forty+Centuries%22 There are 20 matches for the search here. Here's a sample. This page is fantastic. http://www.enviroweb.org/publications/rodale/ag-sieve/vol5no3.html International Ag-Sieve Volume V, number 3 -- Ancient Farming Contents: Hohokam Farming Systems Editorial Farmers of Forty Centuries Why Study Traditional Agriculture? Elevating Agriculture to Old Heights Waru, Waru, Where are You? Listening for the Pitta Bird Acient Hawaiian Aquaculture Excerpt: Farmers of forty Centuries Permanent Agriculture in China, Korea and Japan by F.H. King (reprinted by Rodale Press Inc.) Published first in 1911, Professor King's last work is a fascinating compilation of notes and photographs made by the noted soil scientist as a visitor to Japan, Korea, and China in the first decade of this century. Dr. King's interest during his visit was development of capacities to feed people adequately from a limited land resource base. A lifetime later, so many nations are face-to-face with this vital issue, to which Dr. King's remarks are no less relevant. The theme of intensive local human and natural resource use to produce food, fuel, fiber, and fodder runs throughout this book. Detailed observations on water use, manure management, crop diversification, human culture, and numerous other topics appear in each of the book's 17 chapters. To enhance the range and wealth of information offered to readers through his clear and descriptive text, Dr. King included 248 photographs and illustrations. Beginning to end, this classic work is about people and land use in the absence of electronic and petroleum-based agricultural technologies, like much of the world today. For readers whose experience includes living, working, or traveling in Japan, Korea, or China, Farmers of Forty Centuries is likely to invite comparison and contrast between present and past agricultural practices there. For others yet to set foot in these nations, Professor King's prodigious account of a faraway time and place establishes a solid historical context in which to pursue one's interest in the region. From any perspective, it is clear that agricultural practices which have endured 4,000 years merit the title "sustainable." Most importantly, readers will enjoy Professor King's work. The book is offered for sale ($16) at http://www.asianbooks.com/chinaj.html I don't have time right now to check out the other matches from Looksmart, but I intend to later! Pam ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 8 13:56:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02686 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21100; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:54:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA20810 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:51:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 63.23.20.154 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:51:50 -0700 Message-ID: <00a801bf11b6$9baa1bc0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: BD Reflections (recent CA BD conference) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:57:36 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1929 Biodynamic Reflections We recently had a wonderful biodynamic conference at the Rudolf Steiner College, in Sacramento, sponsored by the Biodynamic Association of North America. Many different kinds folks attended. During the wrap-up forum, in which everyone got a chance to speak, numerous people spoke appreciatively about the harmonious learning environment throughout the conference, the beneficial balance of young folks and older and of men and women (attendees as well as speakers), and of the efforts made to think, feel and experience biodynamics (not just talk). We had a more thinking kind of introduction Friday night, with an overview of the history and system of biodynamics, both from an ecological and spiritual perspective. Saturday morning we had a wonderful slide show/talk about the history and development of a particularly wonderful bd farm in Oregon which was filled with all the feelings that accompany such a tremendous effort. We then went to the bd garden at the Waldorf school next door and made preparation 500 together, stuffing the horns and burying them carefully. In the afternoon many smaller workshops kept us fascinated with a wide variety of practical and spiritual presentations. And then the evening brought us incredible music and euythmy. Sunday morning we heard an intimate talk about the spiritual connection that can be made between biodynamics and other spiritual streams. The fabulous food and warm fellowship were perhaps even more important and made what was said, felt and experienced all the more real and hopeful. What seemed most prevalent, throughout, was the sense of mutual support for our learning, listening, experiencing of biodynamics. There was a high level of mutual respect and mutual interest. In a time of road rage, economic and social anxieties and hyper-marketing the conference seemed like an oasis, a mediation from which to draw strength and a sense of community and purpose. Biodynamic farms and garden have this effect too. Although some folks are focused on getting everyone to go organic or even bd (heard this from bd folks from both Egypt and the US recently), I think it is marvelous if we have perhaps less than everyone on board, but those farms we do have should be examples not only of fine farming, but of tolerance, mutual respect, focused learning and a general sense of appreciation. Was great to be reminded of this. Several introductions to Anthroposophy as a basis for understanding biodynamics were given as well. Approaching the issue from a variety of perspectives, we were able to see how biodynamics is not alone in the spiritual agriculture world and has several wonderful in the alternative agricultural universe. At the same time we could see how biodynamics, as a particular approach to working with the spirits, was born of Anthroposophy and how our understanding of its methods and practices can be deeply enhanced by a careful study of this unique philosophy. It was not presented as dogma or religion, but rather as a professional way to understand a unique, holistic system that has its own integrity. It was one of the best bd conferences I’ve been to in years. Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 8 14:53:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03676 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:53:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26394; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:51:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wavecom.net (root@wave.sheridan.wy.us [206.54.116.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26199 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:49:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dbrown (sher63.wavecom.net [206.54.116.148]) by wavecom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA05257 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:47:46 -0600 Message-ID: <001501bf11c6$c1f021c0$947436ce@dbrown.wavecom.net> From: "Audrey Malan" To: "biodynamic list serve" Subject: bindweed Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:52:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF118C.01907040" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1930 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF118C.01907040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Following up on the bindweed discussion - Linda, how are things going? = Did you try any of the suggestions? We also have a major bindweed = problem - just wondering what you decided to do, and how it seems to be = working - thanks, Audrey ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF118C.01907040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Following up on the bindweed = discussion - Linda,=20 how are things going?  Did you try any of the suggestions?  We = also=20 have a major bindweed problem - just wondering what you decided to do, = and how=20 it seems to be working - thanks, Audrey
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF118C.01907040-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 10 01:29:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA20098 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 01:29:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA16842; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 01:27:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA16673 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 01:22:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-035.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.135]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA06154 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 18:24:14 +1300 Message-ID: <002101bf12df$734d0e60$87f631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Fw: another one Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 18:22:28 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01BF134C.68CBEB60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1931 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BF134C.68CBEB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Poata Eruera To: gareth bodle Date: Thursday, 1 July 1999 03:37 PM Subject: another one WILL THEY EVER END......=20 =20 I received the following information of a new virus - WOBBLER. It will arrive on e-mail titled CALIFORNIA. IBM and AOL have announced that it is very powerful, more so than Melissa, there is no remedy. It will eat all your information on the hard drive and also destroys Netscape Navigator and Microsoft Internet Explorer. Do not open anything with this title and please = pass this message on to all your contacts and anyone who uses your e-mail facility. Not many people seem to know about this yet so propagate it as fast as possible. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BF134C.68CBEB60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Poata Eruera <poata@connected.net.nz>
= To:=20 gareth bodle <glend@igrin.co.nz>
Date:=20 Thursday, 1 July 1999 03:37 PM
Subject: another=20 one

WILL THEY EVER = END...... 
 
I received the following information of = a new virus=20 - WOBBLER.
 It will arrive on e-mail titled CALIFORNIA.  = IBM and=20 AOL have announced
 that it is very powerful, more so than = Melissa,=20 there is no remedy.  It
 will eat all your information = on  the=20 hard drive and also destroys
 Netscape Navigator and=20 Microsoft
 Internet Explorer.  Do not open anything with = this title=20 and please pass
 this message on to all your contacts and anyone = who=20 uses your e-mail
 facility.  Not many people seem to know = about=20 this yet so propagate it
 as fast as=20 possible.
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BF134C.68CBEB60-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 10 11:30:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22647 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 11:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08811; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 11:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08643 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 11:25:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d144.infoserve.net [199.175.157.144]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA00779 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 08:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001b01bf1334$980d5160$909dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Happy...... Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 08:31:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF12F9.E95B61A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1932 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF12F9.E95B61A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear bdnow'ers, Happy Canadian Thankgiving! Happy American Columbus Day! Michael ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF12F9.E95B61A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear = bdnow'ers,
 
  Happy Canadian=20 Thankgiving!
  Happy American Columbus = Day!
 
Michael
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF12F9.E95B61A0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 11 01:20:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA02313 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 01:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA26359; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 01:18:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA25892 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 01:15:01 -0400 (EDT) From: HMSTDFRMS@aol.com Received: from HMSTDFRMS@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hHZPa02565 (304) for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 20:54:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.7ca7e5ef.25328f4c@aol.com> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 20:54:36 EDT Subject: Re: bindweed To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1933 Audrey wrote: Following up on the bindweed discussion - Linda, how are things going? Did you try any of the suggestions? We did a shallow cultivation with the Perfecta every 8-10 days through July. The intent was to turn over (without breaking up) the bindweed roots and let them dry out. Then we planted a thick crop of Sudex in Aug. to smother whatever bindweed tried to make a come-back. What we have found is that the cultivation may have reduced the strength of the bindweed plants, but in no way eliminated it. The Sudex provided some pretty nice support poles for the bindweed to climb in its quest for light! We had such a great field of thick Sudex that we decided to cut a very large "corn maze" in it to entertain the families at our Family Fun Day. They loved it, so all was not a total loss! At this point, next year's plan will include some very intensive grazing of this area. Has anyone had experience with which livestock they feel might be most beneficial? Linda Homestead Farms From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 11 03:07:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03648 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 03:07:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA03377; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 03:05:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA03241 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 03:03:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-13.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.14]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA02458 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 00:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <380189C5.90C967F@ap.net> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 23:55:01 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: bindweed References: <0.7ca7e5ef.25328f4c@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1934 HMSTDFRMS@aol.com wrote: > Audrey wrote: > Following up on the bindweed discussion - Linda, how are things going? Did > you try any of the suggestions? > > We did a shallow cultivation with the Perfecta every 8-10 days through July. > The intent was to turn over (without breaking up) the bindweed roots and let > them dry out. Then we planted a thick crop of Sudex in Aug. to smother > whatever bindweed tried to make a come-back. What we have found is that the > cultivation may have reduced the strength of the bindweed plants, but in no > way eliminated it. The Sudex provided some pretty nice support poles for the > bindweed to climb in its quest for light! We had such a great field of thick > Sudex that we decided to cut a very large "corn maze" in it to entertain the > families at our Family Fun Day. They loved it, so all was not a total loss! > At this point, next year's plan will include some very intensive grazing of > this area. Has anyone had experience with which livestock they feel might be > most beneficial? > Linda > Homestead Farms Hi Linda: Been following the bindweed thread and wonder where all of our cosmic friends might be on this issue? As they say, YooHoo- Cosmic Pipe Folks, Horn Clay Magicians, Perpetrators of Perlandra, Deva Darlings, Radionics Reporters, Agnihotra Adepts... what say any of you? What do we do with POP's? [Plants out of Place]. Comments? Suggestions? Explanations? Thanks. David I/whirlderv@ap.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 11 09:42:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06721 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 09:42:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21485; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 09:41:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21290 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 09:39:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id GAA27682 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 06:42:43 -0700 Message-ID: <3801E9B5.9FD8F62B@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 06:44:22 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE immediately\ References: <3c049c8f.2524330a@aol.com> <37F3F11D.68732ED2@netmagic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1935 David-James Curtis wrote: > NEILLCO@aol.com wrote: > > > Interesting debate and Robins experiances adds some new light. I would like > > to know if Robin considers that the failing BD farms he witnessed would have > > been more successfull using conventional techniques? > > > > BD appears to me to be the grandfather of the more modern Organic method. The > > main distinction of the two seems to be that BD maintains the use of a > > mystical, "spiritual" aspect and Organic farming does not. The question seems > > to be, does a spiritual quality, appropriately administered, improve > > farming techniques? > > > > I seem to remember a study done where plants that were talked to did better > > than those that were not. > > > > The suprising success of Amish farmers and other religious farming groups in > > the USA may also tend to support the use of a spiritual approach. > > > > Randi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 11 11:45:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08611 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:45:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02976; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:42:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02628 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-143-163.s163.tnt1.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.163]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA23119 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:40:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3802055B.40CBE780@erols.com> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:42:20 -0400 From: Rex Harrill X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: bindweed References: <0.7ca7e5ef.25328f4c@aol.com> <380189C5.90C967F@ap.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1936 David Isaacs wrote: > Been following the bindweed thread and wonder where all of our cosmic friends > might be on this issue? As they say, YooHoo- Cosmic Pipe Folks, Horn Clay > Magicians, Perpetrators of Perlandra, Deva Darlings, Radionics Reporters, > Agnihotra Adepts... what say any of you? > Cute. :) What tag would you hang on me if I went into a field, measured the brix of the dominant weeds, found it to be higher than the brix of the crop, and gently told the farmer: "I don't know what you're fertilizing with, but there's little doubt that you are fertilizing and cultivating to grow weeds"? > > What do we do with POP's? [Plants out of Place]. Comments? Suggestions? > Explanations? A good starting point is to read a little 100 page book by one of BD's own, Ehrenfried E. Pfeiffer, entitled "Weeds And What They Tell." Or, you might want to try Charles Walters' "Weeds: Control Without Poisons." Those are both good primers. Finally, for anyone who wants to move to the "postgraduate" end, I recommend Jay McCaman's "Weeds And Why They Grow." The first two should be easily tracked down via library or one of the internet used-book sources (I haven't tried Amazon.com). The last (about $24?) can best be obtained from the author at Box 22, Sand Lake, MI 49343 Regards, Rex Harrill From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 11 14:33:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11732 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 14:33:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20131; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 14:31:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19961 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 14:29:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-20.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.21]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA05022 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <38022AAE.F539D54E@ap.net> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:21:34 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: bindweed References: <0.7ca7e5ef.25328f4c@aol.com> <380189C5.90C967F@ap.net> <3802055B.40CBE780@erols.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4F58636F4F289C12777171F4" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1937 --------------4F58636F4F289C12777171F4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rex Harrill wrote: > David Isaacs wrote: > > > Been following the bindweed thread and wonder where all of our cosmic friends > > might be on this issue? As they say, YooHoo- Cosmic Pipe Folks, Horn Clay > > Magicians, Perpetrators of Perlandra, Deva Darlings, Radionics Reporters, > > Agnihotra Adepts... what say any of you? > > > > Cute. :) What tag would you hang on me if I went into a field, measured the brix > of the dominant weeds, found it to be higher than the brix of the crop, and gently > told the farmer: "I don't know what you're fertilizing with, but there's little > doubt that you are fertilizing and cultivating to grow weeds"? > > > > > What do we do with POP's? [Plants out of Place]. Comments? Suggestions? > > Explanations? > > A good starting point is to read a little 100 page book by one of BD's own, > Ehrenfried E. Pfeiffer, entitled "Weeds And What They Tell." Or, you might want to > try Charles Walters' "Weeds: Control Without Poisons." Those are both good > primers. > > Finally, for anyone who wants to move to the "postgraduate" end, I recommend Jay > McCaman's "Weeds And Why They Grow." > > The first two should be easily tracked down via library or one of the internet > used-book sources (I haven't tried Amazon.com). The last (about $24?) can best be > obtained from the author at Box 22, Sand Lake, MI 49343 > > Regards, > Rex Harrill Well Mr. Rex, I'd just have to git my "one dang helpful Farmer" tag outta my tag drawer and pin it right where everybody could see. I've been clearing some small garden sized plots out here on the California range and have been fascinated by the resourcefullnes of the "weeds". Before energy goes much above ground, there's a four inch tap root heading earthward anchoring these variously shaped plants at a time of the year when it hasn't rained for months. Mom Nature must want 'em there for some good reason - and the "earth" clearly supports their presence. It will certainly be fascinating to read what Pfieffer had to say. About thirty years ago an American Sufi Sage by the name of Samual Lewis was quoted in the Middle East as saying, "just give me a few old fashioned US farmers ..and most of the problems we see could be solved in short order here". I guess you might also qualify for the "old fashioned farmer tag". :o) Many thanks for your input Rex. David I/whirlderv@ap.net --------------4F58636F4F289C12777171F4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Rex Harrill wrote:

David Isaacs wrote:

> Been following the bindweed thread and wonder where all of our cosmic friends
> might be on this issue?  As they say, YooHoo- Cosmic Pipe Folks, Horn Clay
> Magicians, Perpetrators of Perlandra, Deva Darlings, Radionics Reporters,
> Agnihotra Adepts... what say any of you?
>

Cute.  :)   What tag would you hang on me if I went into a field, measured the brix
of the dominant weeds, found it to be higher than the brix of the crop, and gently
told the farmer: "I don't know what you're fertilizing with, but there's little
doubt that you are fertilizing and cultivating to grow weeds"?

>
> What do we do with POP's?  [Plants out of Place].  Comments?  Suggestions?
> Explanations?

 A good starting point is to read a little 100 page book by one of BD's own,
Ehrenfried E. Pfeiffer, entitled "Weeds And What They Tell."  Or, you might want to
try Charles Walters' "Weeds: Control Without Poisons."  Those are both good
primers.

Finally, for anyone who wants to move to the "postgraduate" end, I recommend Jay
McCaman's "Weeds And Why They Grow."

The first two should be easily tracked down via library or one of the internet
used-book sources (I haven't tried Amazon.com).  The last (about $24?) can best be
obtained from the author at Box 22, Sand Lake, MI 49343

Regards,
Rex Harrill

Well Mr. Rex, I'd just have to git  my "one dang helpful Farmer" tag outta my tag drawer and pin it right where everybody could see.

I've been clearing some small garden sized plots out here on the California range and have been fascinated by the resourcefullnes of the "weeds".  Before energy goes much above ground, there's a four inch tap root heading earthward anchoring these variously shaped plants  at a time of the year when it hasn't rained for months.  Mom Nature must want 'em there for some good reason - and the "earth" clearly supports their presence.  It will certainly be fascinating to read what Pfieffer had to say.

About thirty years ago an American Sufi Sage by the name of Samual Lewis was quoted in the Middle East as saying, "just give me a few old fashioned US farmers ..and most of the problems we see could be solved in short order here".  I guess you might also qualify for the "old fashioned farmer tag".  :o)

Many thanks for your input Rex.

David I/whirlderv@ap.net
  --------------4F58636F4F289C12777171F4-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 12 03:32:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA22224 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 03:32:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA07137; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 03:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (fep4-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA07026 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 03:27:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (b001-m004-p026.acld.clear.net.nz [203.97.54.26]) by fep4-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.3) with SMTP id UAA01413; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:28:10 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <007101bf1484$189f60c0$1a3661cb@oemcomputer> From: "Peter Cotterill" To: Subject: re biodynamics Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:28:45 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006C_01BF14F0.61A87600" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1938 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01BF14F0.61A87600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear BDNOW Group, This is my first contribution to your discussions. Reading the articles = placed on the web and from BDNOW I get the feeling that all is not well = within the whole of the BD movement. It is good that everybody is their = own master, freewill to express themselves in whatever way they think = fit but there seems to be signs of a split. There are signs that one = group is not happy with classical BD officials because they are not = moving or evolving fast enough towards techniques being promoted today. = Potentized preps, dowsing, cosmic pipes, Deva Spiritual beings and the = alike. Then there are those who at the other end that can only except BD = from a pure practical materialistic concept. When BD leaves this sense = world and enters the hidden spiritual realm they can no longer embrace = or understand it. Thus we have a broad range of people within BD who = have different levels of a awareness or consciousness. We must all = eventually come to see that Bio-dynamics encompasses everything, and I = mean everything from the Earth to the stars, the peripheral beyond and = even into the spiritual world. We must keep an open mind to all ideas no = matter how far from reality they may seem. Our karma is to work on these = concepts and find the real truth. This Forum can help to do that. Health = skepticism is good but we must avoid criticism to a point where emotions = are stirred up and we attack one another. Are we aware of Ahriman's = deception in scientific superstition? The statement below may enlighten = the way. 'One means used by Ahriman to make his incarnation as effective as = possible - this keeping of man back in scientific superstition, the = second means that he employs is to stir up all the emotions that split = men up into small groups-groups that mutually attacks one another.' Taken from the book called 'The Ahrimanic Deception.' Zurich, 27th = October 1910 page 12 Ruldolf Steiner. ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01BF14F0.61A87600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Dear BDNOW Group,

This is my first contribution to your discussions. Reading the = articles=20 placed on the web and from BDNOW I get the feeling that all is not well = within=20 the whole of the BD movement. It is good that everybody is their own = master,=20 freewill to express themselves in whatever way they think fit but there = seems to=20 be signs of a split. There are signs that one group is not happy with = classical=20 BD officials because they are not moving or evolving fast enough towards = techniques being promoted today. Potentized preps, dowsing, cosmic = pipes, Deva=20 Spiritual beings and the alike. Then there are those who at the other = end that=20 can only except BD from a pure practical materialistic concept. When BD = leaves=20 this sense world and enters the hidden spiritual realm they can no = longer=20 embrace or understand it. Thus we have a broad range of people within BD = who=20 have different levels of a awareness or consciousness. We must all = eventually=20 come to see that Bio-dynamics encompasses everything, and I mean = everything from=20 the Earth to the stars, the peripheral beyond and even into the = spiritual world.=20 We must keep an open mind to all ideas no matter how far from reality = they may=20 seem. Our karma is to work on these concepts and find the real truth. = This Forum=20 can help to do that. Health skepticism is good but we must avoid = criticism to a=20 point where emotions are stirred up and we attack one another. Are we = aware of=20 Ahriman's deception in scientific superstition? The statement below may=20 enlighten the way.

'One means used by Ahriman to make his incarnation as effective as = possible -=20 this keeping of man back in scientific superstition, the second means = that he=20 employs is to stir up all the emotions that split men up into small=20 groups-groups that mutually attacks one another.'

Taken from the book called 'The Ahrimanic Deception.' Zurich, 27th = October=20 1910 page 12 Ruldolf Steiner.

------=_NextPart_000_006C_01BF14F0.61A87600-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 12 03:35:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA22242 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 03:35:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA07324; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 03:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA07110 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 03:29:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-69.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.69]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA04321 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 17:29:56 +1000 Message-ID: <006f01bf1483$47e192a0$47431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Message to Hugh Lovel Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 17:26:34 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0067_01BF14D6.EE6F6D60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1939 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01BF14D6.EE6F6D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Hugh, One of our members would like to make phone contact with you from = Australia. He is not on email yet, and is a great admirer of your work. = He is actually one of our older farmers and has spent 15 years growing = BD wheat and beef cattle. He was wondering if you could give him your = phone number and a time to best connect with you plus you had better say = your time zone in relation to Greenwich mean time. HE is not a great = writer, and feels a talk would be more productive. Just send it to me = direct if you like and I shall pass it on to him. Glad you are back on line, I have missed your input, Cheryl Kemp. Education & News Leaf Editor Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322=20 email bio@midcoast.com.au=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01BF14D6.EE6F6D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Hugh,
 One of our members would like = to make=20 phone contact with you from Australia.  He is not on email yet, and = is a=20 great admirer of your work. He is actually one of our older farmers and = has=20 spent 15 years growing BD wheat and beef cattle.  He was wondering = if you=20 could give him your phone number and a time to best connect with you = plus you=20 had better say your time zone in relation to Greenwich mean time.  = HE is=20 not a great writer, and feels a talk would be more productive.  = Just send=20 it to me direct if you like and I shall pass it on to him.
Glad you are back on line, I have = missed your=20 input,
Cheryl Kemp.
Education & News Leaf = Editor
Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening = Assoc.
of=20 Australia Inc.
P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office)
627 Tyringham = Rd,=20 Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home)
Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 =
email bio@midcoast.com.au=20
------=_NextPart_000_0067_01BF14D6.EE6F6D60-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 12 08:15:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23593 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 08:15:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA17474; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 08:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17303 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 08:09:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.140] (pm3shep2-163-79.intrepid.net [209.190.163.79]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06806 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 08:10:25 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 20:11:09 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: First Pix from Mid-Atlantic BD Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1940 The first set of pix from the 1999 Mid-Atlantic BD Conference are available for viewing on-line through a link at http:www.claymont.org. If interest demands, more pictures will be made available later. Thanks -Allan Balliett moderator BD Now! Organizer, Mid-Atlantic BD Conference From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 12 09:52:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24931 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:52:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25280; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:50:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25200 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207.41.56.66 (dial-66-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.66]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA23731 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:46:13 -0400 Message-ID: <38034E19.460D@together.net> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:04:58 -0500 From: Lisa Mccrory Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: First Pix from Mid-Atlantic BD Conference References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1941 Allan Balliett wrote: > > The first set of pix from the 1999 Mid-Atlantic BD Conference are available > for viewing on-line through a link at http:www.claymont.org. If interest > demands, more pictures will be made available later. > > Thanks > > -Allan Balliett > moderator BD Now! > Organizer, Mid-Atlantic BD Conference Allan - I searched the web page, but could not find the pictures...where would I look? -lisa From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 12 10:15:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25830 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:15:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27512; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:13:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27196 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:10:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.163] ("port 2049"@[148.233.78.163]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FJH00KE1W1YOB@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 08:54:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:02:59 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: First Pix from Mid-Atlantic BD Conference In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1942 >The first set of pix from the 1999 Mid-Atlantic BD Conference are available >for viewing on-line through a link at http:www.claymont.org. If interest >demands, more pictures will be made available later. > >Thanks > >-Allan Balliett >moderator BD Now! >Organizer, Mid-Atlantic BD Conference Hi Allan: What do you mean by "if interest demands", of course there is interest on this side to re-live such wonderfull experiences that happened in your conference. Thanks for posting this to the web, I forgot my camera and this is the only way I have to illustrate my stories about the MA BD conference to my friends and family. Next year I'll make sure I take my own picts. Best (ps Carina says that you look as nice a soul as you are) Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 12 10:17:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25841 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27571; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:13:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27251 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:10:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.163] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.163]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FJH00K6TW5LQE@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 08:56:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:05:19 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: First Pix from Mid-Atlantic BD Conference In-reply-to: <38034E19.460D@together.net> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1943 > >Allan - I searched the web page, but could not find the pictures...where >would I look? > >-lisa Click at the conference banner Lisa and it will take you to the link Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 12 10:50:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26355 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00437; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:47:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00256 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:46:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hWTFa19941 (7819) for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:46:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.190b0663.2534a3c1@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:46:25 EDT Subject: Re: re biodynamics To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1944 In answer to Peter Cotterill's post on "splits" - I recently heard the following, loosely paraphrased, at the Anthroposophical Medical Section meeting in Dornach: 1. In the domain of thinking and creative ideas there is diversity, as everyone is individually endowed with gifts 2. In the domain of co-existing we make room for, and respect, one another 3. In the domain of will activity - what we wish to achieve - the ideas (each from their own side) should focus on a common purpose with a common (larger) goal The statement then went on: In anthroposophical (also applies to BD) circles the first and third are often reversed, much to the detriment of everyone. People form committees to try to force ONE idea on everyone which eventually causes splitting, and everyone wants to DO things in their own way, which causes weakening. Perhaps we need a mission statement. Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 12 10:54:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26416 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:53:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00766; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:51:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4.mindspring.com (smtp4.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00592 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:49:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop2.igc.org (user-33qtid7.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.201.167]) by smtp4.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA32582 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:50:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <380357F1.9D591908@pop2.igc.org> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 07:46:58 -0800 From: Shannan and James Johnson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "BDNOW!" Subject: Alternative Pest Control Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1945 Dear BDers, I have a question concerning pest control. I have less than 2 weeks to put together a talk that includes alternatives to pesticides for our county PCA's. I am honored that the Ag. Commissioner's office asked for my input as I have had discussions over topics considered controversial in our office (UC Coop Ext) that would be of interest to members on this list. I want to approach the talk from a perspective of soil health equals plant health equals tolerant plants but I need a bit more on what to do once the system is out of balance. Are there good perennial weed controls through BD or organic practices? Does anyone know how to get a hold of Phil Calahan or Tom Dykstra so I can ask them about Paramagnetic influences on pests? Does the cosmic (Heironymus) pipe have any documentation or University research that I can refer to? Citations are very important to me. Otherwise a testimonial will be challenged and I don't have experience in all these areas to say for certain the claims are true. What other "unusual" methods of pest control can you throw out at me that a conventional producer would deem applicable to their fields. One aside, for David's skeptical views I would recommend you read, "Alternative Science: Challenging the Myths of the Scientific Establishment" for a better perspective on the contributions of paranormal and unconventional science. I thank you for any contributions and if these topics were discussed in the past, an archive will do just fine. Sincerely, James Johnson Windsor, CA shanjam@igc.org From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 12 11:42:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27568 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05627; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:33:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kootenay.com (web1.vphos.net [207.102.129.200]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05103 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.70]) by -0700 PDT ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 08:31:06 -0700 PDT Message-ID: <005701bf14c6$d72b9120$46cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: Subject: Re: First Pix from Mid-Atlantic BD Conference Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 08:31:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1946 Allan: Thanks for the pictures! I am moved to remark that it is NOT known that BD preps cause grey beards, despite the evidence. Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 5:11 PM Subject: First Pix from Mid-Atlantic BD Conference > The first set of pix from the 1999 Mid-Atlantic BD Conference are available > for viewing on-line through a link at http:www.claymont.org. If interest > demands, more pictures will be made available later. > > Thanks > > -Allan Balliett > moderator BD Now! > Organizer, Mid-Atlantic BD Conference > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 12 13:26:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29336 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18516; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:24:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18357 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.16] (pm3shep1-163-16.intrepid.net [209.190.163.16]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA07236 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:23:56 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 01:26:20 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD BD Reflections (recent CA BD conference) -Reply Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1947 >Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 08:20:10 -0600 >From: Ted Rogers >To: agdoc@email.msn.com >Cc: bdnow@igg.com >Subject: BD Reflections (recent CA BD conference) -Reply >Mime-Version: 1.0 > >SNIP: > >"Biodynamic farms and garden have this effect too. Although some folks >are >focused on getting everyone to go organic or even bd (heard this from >bd >folks from both Egypt and the US recently), I think it is marvelous if we >have perhaps less than everyone on board, but those farms we do have >should >be examples not only of fine farming, but of tolerance, mutual respect, >focused learning and a general sense of appreciation. Was great to be >reminded of this." > >I really appreciate this sentiment, though my attitude is a little less >esoteric, it is really critical that practitioners reflect the basic >tenants of >their philosophy/methodology before they set out to save the world. I >think that the organic community/industry has blown their opportunity to >have major long term impact and the potential failing that you allude to >was probably a great contributor to their collapse. First they did not >bother to crystallize their philosophy(ideology) into a set of practices that >worked. Their second failing arose out of the first, they failed to practice >what they preached in a demonstrable fashion. With the claims they >made every organic farm should have just sparkled with life and >productivity, well they didn't and they don't and the preponderance of >neglect will eventually bring them all down... > >The recent descriptions on this list of BD by neglect in N.Z. are a point in >example, maybe we should get the beam out of our own eye before we >go out to get the splinter out of conventional agriculture's eye. > >Best, > >Ted > >Allan to the list please > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 12 13:33:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29580 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19263; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:31:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19179 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.248]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991012173655.HTDZ2099451.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 06:36:55 +1300 Message-ID: <38037134.F62@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 06:34:44 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Biodynamics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1948 Is it not the job of elected officials to coordinate and faciliate the meeting of the old with the present and future. If they do not and only build walls to preseve themselves. Then do they not deserve the resulting revolution from the future taking what is rightfully its. How can it be any different. GA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 12 14:53:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01243 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:53:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29809; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:52:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA29252 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:48:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.149.164.35 (mx3-21.ilhawaii.net [204.149.164.35]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA15425; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:49:26 -0500 Message-ID: <38038643.6F4D@smallfarms.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:04:35 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: FWD BD Reflections (recent CA BD conference) -Reply References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1949 I'm new to this list and hope I don't stray too far afield on this discussion. I don't consider mayself a biodynamic farmer yet I've incorporated some your elements into my own farm. Pleae don't flogg yourselves over what you may see as your failures and oversights. The important thing is that some of you tried something new and somewhat different. You did it in the best way possible at the time. The blame game will get our community of small conventional, organic and sustainable farmers nowhere. The initiative, the trying and experimenting, is more important than the actual "success" at the conclusion of your efforts. glenn Buy form the Farmer www.smallfarms.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 12 17:49:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04837 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 17:49:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19377; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 17:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19004 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 17:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.16] (pm3shep4-163-194.intrepid.net [209.190.163.194]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA31267 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 17:45:07 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 05:52:06 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: BD Oatmeal + recipes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id RAA19006 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1950 Biodynamically Grown DEMETER Certified Massena Farms Oat Meal Our delicious oat meal, toasted oat groats, oat bran, and oat flower are made from our own Biodynamically grown oats. Massena Farms is owned and operated by Bob Steffen and family of Bennington, Nebraska and has been certified Biodynamic since 1986. The Biodynamic method gives plants the vitality and life forces that can only come from a living, fertile and balanced soil. Recipes follow. Oat Meal Recipes Massena Farms Summer Breakfast Oatmeal 1 cup Biodynamic Oatmeal 1 cups spring water or distilled water 1/3 cup Biodynamic raisins Soak oatmeal for at least four hours (preferably overnight). Add honey, grated coconut, or almond pieces to taste. Winter Breakfast Oatmeal 2 cups Biodynamic Oatmeal 1/2 cup Biodynamic raisins (or 1/4 cup prunes) 3 cups spring water or distilled water 1/4 cup sunflower or pumpkin seeds 1/4 tsp. salt (optional) Bring water to a boil. Stir in all ingredients. Cook on low heat for 3 minutes. Serve with milk and honey. Granola 3 cups Biodynamic Oatmeal 1/4 cup nuts, pumpkin or sunflower seeds 1/2 cup shredded coconut 1/2 cup Biodynamic raisins (dates, prunes, or other dried fruit can be substituted) 1/2 cup honey 2 Tbsp. canola oil 1 Tbsp. vanilla Blend all ingredients in a large bowl. Spread the mixture on an oiled cookie sheet. Bake at 325° for 15 minutes, then reduce heat to 300° for approximately 10 more minutes. Stir frequently. Oatmeal Cookies 1 cups Biodynamic Oatmeal 2 cups whole wheat flour 3 tsp. baking powder 1/2 tsp. salt (optional) 1 tsp. vanilla 3 eggs 2/3 cup honey 1 cup canola oil 1 cup milk 1 cup dates (cut into small pieces) 1 cup carob pieces (optional) Simmer dates in milk and cool. Sift flower, baking powder, and salt together three times and set aside. Beat eggs. Add to beaten eggs in the following order; honey, vanilla, canola, and simmered date mixture. Carefully stir in sifted flour mixture. Add oatmeal and carob pieces. Bake on an oiled cookie sheet at 350° for 30 to 35 minutes. Cut into squares before cooling. Massena Farms 12808 N. 192nd St. Bennington, NE 68007 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 12 19:48:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA06855 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01645; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:46:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01337 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:43:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.16] (pm3shep3-163-113.intrepid.net [209.190.163.113]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA23747 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:43:50 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38034E19.460D@together.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 07:46:19 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: First Pix from Mid-Atlantic BD Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1951 >Allan Balliett wrote: >> >> The first set of pix from the 1999 Mid-Atlantic BD Conference are available >> for viewing on-line through a link at http:www.claymont.org. If interest >> demands, more pictures will be made available later. >> >> Thanks >> >> -Allan Balliett >> moderator BD Now! >> Organizer, Mid-Atlantic BD Conference > >Allan - I searched the web page, but could not find the pictures...where >would I look? > >-lisa First of all, Lisa, you're going to PAY ME to get back the picture I'm going to post of you later! :-) Next, pop the 'Mid-Atlantic BD' banner at the top of the claymont page and you'll get to a link to the pix. You may have to reload that page with your browser if it doesn't show a link to pix at the top of the page (the page I'm referring to is the 'original' 1999 Mid-Atlantic BD Conference page.) Let me know if you continue to have problems. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 12 23:06:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA10162 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA18791; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:03:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18619 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:02:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.86] (pm3shep2-163-86.intrepid.net [209.190.163.86]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA01527 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:02:53 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:09:53 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: More BD Conference Pix Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1952 I just posted another page of conference pictures to the net. You can reach them through the first page, which can be reached through the banner at www.claymont.org Enjoy! -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 12 23:12:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA10249 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:12:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA19276; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:11:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19072 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:07:48 -0400 (EDT) From: NEILLCO@aol.com Received: from NEILLCO@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hERWa17102 (4258) for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:07:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.62a790a1.2535518c@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:07:56 EDT Subject: Re: re biodynamics To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1953 A friend of mine told me that she overheard an interesting conversation in a restaurant in Illinois recently. Two men sat down at a table near her and were laughing about something that would "really make the Greenies mad". She heard them referring to the burning of a field of genetically engineered seeds. "Little do they know that that's exactly what's needed to spread it. Yeah, you burn it and it really spews in every direction. Just what we want. HA" It turned out that this guy was moving a ton of money over into Monsanto stocks. I thought this was worth sharing. RB From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 13 10:38:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17615 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27828; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:36:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27266 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:31:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.01354053@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:32:39 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 13 Oct 99 10:32:31 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 13 Oct 99 10:32:09 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:32:08 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: scientific superstition Priority: normal In-reply-to: <007101bf1484$189f60c0$1a3661cb@oemcomputer> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1954 > 'One means used by Ahriman to make his incarnation as effective as possible - >this keeping of man back in scientific superstition, the second >means that he employs is to stir up all the emotions that> > Taken from the book called 'The Ahrimanic Deception.' Zurich, 27th October 1910 page 12 Ruldolf Steiner. Since "science" is usually touted as the antidote to "superstition" (ie, they are opposites), I'm wondering what is meant here by "scientific superstition." Is it what some people might say that bd'ers do when they "shroud" their "superstitions" in "scientific" jargon? Or is it referring to what anthroposophists might say is happening in the world now where "science" is used to support and justify misconceptions that should be called "superstitions" (ie, material science - spiritual science = scientific superstition)? Just curious, Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 13 11:50:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19286 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:50:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04997; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04904 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:47:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.7.44]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:48:16 +0100 Message-ID: <001601bf1592$81f3a4a0$2c072cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: Re: scientific superstition Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:48:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1955 Anita - a superstition is, surely, any belief which is maintained either in the absence of supporting fact or in denial of contradictory evidence. In certain circumstances, conventional science meets one or other of these requirements and, in that respect, is as much a superstition as any alternative view at which scientists sneer. I write as a reformed scientist. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 13 12:32:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20171 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:32:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08999; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:30:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08795 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0135678D@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:29:29 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 13 Oct 99 12:29:22 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 13 Oct 99 12:29:01 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:28:55 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: scientific superstition Priority: normal In-reply-to: <001601bf1592$81f3a4a0$2c072cc3@m00q6c00> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1956 Thank you, Tony, I understand your point. My question is if this is what Steiner was refering to? If so, I wonder why he didn't say it plainer as in "superstition parading as mainstream science." (Of course a more strait-forward Steiner wouldn't be Steiner! ha ha) Anita > Anita - a superstition is, surely, any belief which is maintained either in > the absence of supporting fact or in denial of contradictory evidence. In > certain circumstances, conventional science meets one or other of these > requirements and, in that respect, is as much a superstition as any > alternative view at which scientists sneer. I write as a reformed > scientist. Tony N-S. > > Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 13 13:29:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21913 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16724; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:28:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15982 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-20.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.53]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA08745 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3804BE4D.F806A6FC@ap.net> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:15:57 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: scientific superstition References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1957 "Anita Graf (Staff)" wrote: > > 'One means used by Ahriman to make his incarnation as effective as possible - > >this keeping of man back in scientific superstition, the second > >means that he employs is to stir up all the emotions that> > > Taken from the book called 'The Ahrimanic Deception.' Zurich, 27th October 1910 page 12 Ruldolf Steiner. > > Since "science" is usually touted as the antidote to "superstition" > (ie, they are opposites), I'm wondering what is meant here by > "scientific superstition." Is it what some people might say that > bd'ers do when they "shroud" their "superstitions" in "scientific" > jargon? Or is it referring to what anthroposophists might say is > happening in the world now where "science" is used to support and > justify misconceptions that should be called "superstitions" (ie, > material science - spiritual science = scientific superstition)? > > Just curious, > Anita Don't know what the good Dr. Steiner meant but science is just an agreed upon methodology; so is ritual magic. Demeaning either process because it doesn't meet a non-applicable set of rules, e.g. double blind testing, is illogical. Bottom line = does it work. For example, there are several monographs written by front line nurses after WWII, detailing their experiences with homeopathic first aid. Thats all they had to use along with some herbs. The results in this application were uniformly positive. Read by western doctors this "scientific superstition" generates a massive dose of cognitive dissonance. As ego reigns, so does Ahriman succeed. Bottom line=those cured don't care. :o) david/whirlderv@ap.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 13 14:31:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23529 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:31:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23621; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23464 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip048.computer.net [140.186.252.48]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA16614 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:28:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:30:41 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: October 10, 1999 - October 16, 1999 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA23478 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1958 Calendar of the Soul [October 10, 1999 - October 16, 1999] Twenty-eighth Week (October 13-19) I can, in newly quickened inner life, Sense wide horizons in myself. The force and radiance of my thought -- Coming from soul's sun power -- Can solve the mysteries of life, And grant fulfillment now to wishes Whose wings have long been lamed by hope. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Ich kann im Innern neu belebt Erfühlen eignen Wesens Weiten Und krafterfüllt Gedankenstrahlen Aus Seelensonnenmacht Den Lebensrätreln lösend spenden, Erfüllung manchem Wunsche leihen, Dem Hoffnung schon die Schwingen lähmte. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+28 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 13 14:35:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23659 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:35:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24180; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23557 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:29:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip048.computer.net [140.186.252.48]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA16645 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:29:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:31:34 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: thanks for the photos Allan! Message-ID: <7DDDA2D2D6C4B8C1852568090065B556.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1959 thanks for letting us glimpse a bit of what we missed at yr. conference, Allan! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 13 15:33:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25004 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:33:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01695; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:31:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01396 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:29:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.01359D4B@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:29:53 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 13 Oct 99 15:29:56 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 13 Oct 99 15:29:33 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:29:32 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: scientific superstition Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3804BE4D.F806A6FC@ap.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1960 > Don't know what the good Dr. Steiner meant but science is just an agreed upon methodology; so is ritual > magic. Demeaning either process because it doesn't meet a non-applicable set of rules, e.g. double blind > testing, is illogical. Bottom line = does it work. > > For example, there are several monographs written by front line nurses after WWII, detailing their experiences > with homeopathic first aid. Thats all they had to use along with some herbs. The results in this application > were uniformly positive. Read by western doctors this "scientific superstition" generates a massive dose of > cognitive dissonance. As ego reigns, so does Ahriman succeed. Bottom line=those cured don't care. > :o) david/whirlderv@ap.net > Perhaps we can say that "scientific superstition" is just one sympton of narrow mindedness and ego-centrism. The latter being appicable to any paradigm of thought, "scientific" or not. But this would indeed seem to be the age characterized by SCIENCE. I saw the most interesting exhibit not long ago in one of the Wash. DC Smithsonians (Museum of American History, I think) that looked at the way things have changed since the advent of modern science and modern scientific thinking. I wish I could remember the details better, but it is my thoughts and feeling about the exhibit which have stayed with me rather than the facts. What I remember thinking was how clearly they showed that the scientific sword cuts both ways -- how we have some marvelous inventions and lifestyle changes thanks to Science, but we also lost many wonderful understandings and ways of living in the world. The exhibit made it clear that there have been costs along with the benefits, and I thought that was an unusual exhibit indeed.... Also, my favorite tv show, Biography, recently payed homage to the 100 most "influential" people of the millennium, and the top 20 were definately dominated by scientists from Copernicus to Einstein. Made me wonder what and who will characterize the next millennium... Just some thoughts on a cloudy, rainy, Georgia afternoon, Anita Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 13 19:38:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA29457 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:38:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25598; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25473 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:35:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.150] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.150]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FJK007D0G9G73@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:05:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:14:50 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: More BD Conference Pix In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1961 >I just posted another page of conference pictures to the net. You can reach >them through the first page, which can be reached through the banner at >www.claymont.org > >Enjoy! > >-Allan Thanks for the picts Allan, keep on posting them please. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 13 21:52:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA01206 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 21:52:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA23219; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 21:50:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rmx05.globecomm.net (rmx05.iname.net [206.253.130.43]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20991 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 21:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web07.pub01 by rmx05.globecomm.net (8.9.1/8.8.0) with SMTP id VAA21623 ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 21:41:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <382085692.939865319064.JavaMail.root@web07.pub01> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 21:41:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: More BD Conference Pix Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.161.18.192 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1962 ------Original Message------ From: Guillermo Romero To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sent: October 14, 1999 12:14:50 AM GMT Subject: Re: More BD Conference Pix >I just posted another page of conference pictures to the net. You can reach >them through the first page, which can be reached through the banner at >www.claymont.org > >Enjoy! > >-Allan Thanks for the picts Allan, keep on posting them please. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO What I'd like to know is, which one in the group shot is Guillermo, and are any of our other BDNOW friends in that photo? Great pictures, Allan, thanks! Pam ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 14 11:42:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11322 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:42:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21208; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:40:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21019 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:39:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.18.120]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:39:35 +0100 Message-ID: <000a01bf165a$77275f80$78122cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: Subject: OFF: Science and astrology Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:40:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF1662.C2FC8B80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1963 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF1662.C2FC8B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A fascinating article ("The planet that hums") in "New = Scientist", 11th Sept. '99, unwittingly suggests that conventional = science may be a little closer to discovering an 'acceptable' basis for = astrology. A group of Japanese geophysicists studying data collected by a = superconducting gravimeter sited in Antarctica carefully subtracted all = known sources of vibration (earthquakes etc) and discovered a residue = with no known cause - a pattern of 'free oscillations' which are thought = to be due to buffeting by changes in atmospheric pressure (there is a = pattern of seasonal variation which cannot be explained by movements = within solid Earth). These results have since been confirmed by = other workers. It is believed that any other planet with even a very = thin atmosphere will have a similar but characteristic 'hum'. So, most = elements of our solar system emit a specific pattern of, admittedly, = very weak vibrations ! Still a little imprisoned in my conventional scientific = training, I've always been rather unhappy about the notion that an = individual's personality might be imposed, at birth, by the pattern of = celestial objects prevailing at that time. A few years ago, I was much = relieved to read Dr Percy Seymour's "The scientific basis of astrology" = (Quantum, 1997 paperback edition); essentially, he proposes that = personality develops in a rather less obscure way, somehow marking the = foetus with a characteristic vibration; when celestial vibrations = correspond to this signature, the child chooses to be born (he pointed = out - and my further reading confirms this - that it is still not known = precisely what actually triggers the birth process). Thus, a person = doesn't have certain characteristics because he was born when the = planets (etc) were in a particular arrangement: he already tends = towards those characteristics and thus 'pops out' when the arrangement = is most appropriate. Incidentally, this makes me very worried about = induction and caesarian section: a high proportion of one generation = born at a time inappropriate to their destiny! However that may be, another source of significant vibrations? = Tony N-S. "If a man begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he = will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties" = (Bacon) ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF1662.C2FC8B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
        A = fascinating=20 article ("The planet that hums") in "New Scientist", 11th Sept. '99, = unwittingly=20 suggests that conventional science may be a little closer to discovering = an=20 'acceptable' basis for astrology.
        A = group of=20 Japanese geophysicists studying data collected by a superconducting = gravimeter sited in Antarctica carefully subtracted all known sources of = vibration (earthquakes etc) and discovered a residue with no = known cause -=20 a pattern of 'free oscillations' which are thought to be due to = buffeting by=20 changes in atmospheric pressure (there is a pattern of = seasonal variation=20 which cannot be explained by movements within solid=20 Earth).        These results have = since been=20 confirmed by other workers.  It is believed that any other = planet with=20 even a very thin atmosphere will have a similar but characteristic = 'hum'. =20 So, most elements of our solar system emit a specific pattern of, = admittedly,=20 very weak vibrations !
        = Still a=20 little imprisoned in my conventional scientific training, I've always = been=20 rather unhappy about the notion that an individual's personality might = be=20 imposed, at birth, by the pattern of celestial objects prevailing at = that=20 time.  A few years ago, I was much relieved to read Dr Percy = Seymour's "The=20 scientific basis of astrology" (Quantum, 1997 paperback edition); =20 essentially, he proposes that personality develops in a rather less = obscure way,=20 somehow marking the foetus with a characteristic vibration;  when = celestial=20 vibrations correspond to this signature, the child chooses to be born = (he=20 pointed out - and my further reading confirms this - that it is still = not known=20 precisely what actually triggers the birth process).  Thus, a = person=20 doesn't have certain characteristics because he was born when the = planets=20 (etc) were in a particular arrangement:  he already tends towards = those=20 characteristics and thus 'pops out' when the arrangement is most=20 appropriate.  Incidentally, this makes me very worried about = induction and=20 caesarian section:  a high proportion of one generation born at a = time=20 inappropriate to their destiny!
        = However that=20 may be, another source of significant=20 vibrations?          &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;  =20 Tony N-S.
 
"If a man begin with certainties, he = shall end in=20 doubts;  but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall = end in=20 certainties"  (Bacon)
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF1662.C2FC8B80-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 14 21:32:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22004 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 21:32:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA14094; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 21:30:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06672 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 21:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.31] (r-66.122.alltel.net [166.102.66.122]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id UAA17104 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 20:04:33 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 20:04:33 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: uai@alltel.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <006f01bf1483$47e192a0$47431ccb@cherylke> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Message to Hugh Lovel Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1964 > Dear Hugh, One of our members would like to make phone contact with >you from Australia. He is not on email yet, and is a great admirer of >your work. He is actually one of our older farmers and has spent 15 years >growing BD wheat and beef cattle. He was wondering if you could give him >your phone number and a time to best connect with you plus you had better >say your time zone in relation to Greenwich mean time. HE is not a great >writer, and feels a talk would be more productive. Just send it to me >direct if you like and I shall pass it on to him. Glad you are back on >line, I have missed your input, Cheryl Kemp. Education & News Leaf Editor >Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. >of Australia Inc. >P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) >627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) >Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 >email bio@midcoast.com.au Deart Cheryl, et. al., Your friend is welcome to call virtually any time at (USA) 1-706 745-6056. Saturday is market day, and I'm not available because I'm dealing with customers. Sunday afternoon our time here is often productive of long discussions. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 15 05:02:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA26783 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 05:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA14945; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 05:00:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA14795 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 04:56:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.31] (r-66.88.alltel.net [166.102.66.88]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id DAA12106 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 03:57:48 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 03:57:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <007101bf1484$189f60c0$1a3661cb@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: re biodynamics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1965 Dear Respondent, You're right. All is NOT well in the BD community, but it sure is getting better because of this e-mail dialogue. Consider that in 1924 R. Steiner indicated that the most important thing was for the effects of the BD preparations to get applied to the widest possible areas over the entire earth for its healing and for the improvement of its produce in every respect. This is still not accomplished. That's not well, though it is the legacy of BD. So BD is not well. Due to this e-mail exchange I hope to see things change. For one thing, the cloistered "Rudolf Steiner said" attitudes are weakening and there is more of a go ahead spirit. It was as if one had to had Rudolf Steiner's indications before one could tie one's shoes. No more. Best, Hugh Lovel > > > > > >Dear BDNOW Group, > > > >This is my first contribution to your discussions. Reading the articles >placed on the web and from BDNOW I get the feeling that all is not well >within the whole of the BD movement. It is good that everybody is their >own master, freewill to express themselves in whatever way they think fit >but there seems to be signs of a split. There are signs that one group is >not happy with classical BD officials because they are not moving or >evolving fast enough towards techniques being promoted today. Potentized >preps, dowsing, cosmic pipes, Deva Spiritual beings and the alike. Then >there are those who at the other end that can only except BD from a pure >practical materialistic concept. When BD leaves this sense world and >enters the hidden spiritual realm they can no longer embrace or >understand it. Thus we have a broad range of people within BD who have >different levels of a awareness or consciousness. We must all eventually >come to see that Bio-dynamics encompasses everything, and I mean >everything from the Earth to the stars, the peripheral beyond and even >into the spiritual world. We must keep an open mind to all ideas no >matter how far from reality they may seem. Our karma is to work on these >concepts and find the real truth. This Forum can help to do that. Health >skepticism is good but we must avoid criticism to a point where emotions >are stirred up and we attack one another. Are we aware of Ahriman's >deception in scientific superstition? The statement below may enlighten >the way. > > > >'One means used by Ahriman to make his incarnation as effective as >possible - this keeping of man back in scientific superstition, the >second means that he employs is to stir up all the emotions that split >men up into small groups-groups that mutually attacks one another.' > > > >Taken from the book called 'The Ahrimanic Deception.' Zurich, 27th October >1910 page 12 Ruldolf Steiner. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 15 08:40:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA28254 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:40:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24376; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:38:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24133 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d142.infoserve.net [199.175.157.142]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA18662 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 05:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <003d01bf170a$996c8100$8e9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF / another blow to Monsanto? Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 05:41:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF16CF.E6D62B20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1966 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF16CF.E6D62B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Gen 10-13, rwolfson@concentric.net Thanks to Paul & Katrin Davis for posting this: U.K. Independent 11.10.99 MONSANTO WEEDKILLER `WIPES OUT BENEFICIAL INSECTS' THE WORLD'S biggest-selling weedkiller, the chemical glyphosate, is = facing a European ban after a confidential European Union report showed that it also kills beneficial insects and spiders. A ban would be a blow to the US group Monsanto, which produces most of = the world's supply, usually under the name Roundup. It is central to the group's production of genetically engineered seeds, as Roundup- ready = seeds are able to withstand the weedkiller. Research at Orebro hospital in Sweden also suggests a higher risk of a cancer called non-Hodgkin's lymphoma in those exposed to glyphosate. In Channel 4 News tonight it is revealed that a confidential EU report = says glyphosate should not be approved for use in Europe. EU advisers believe more research is needed. At the moment each European state can decide which weedkillers it = approves, and all have approved glyphosate. But with EU harmonisation on pesticide and herbicide expected in the next two years, advisers have begun evaluating which should be prohibited. The report, one of several that will form the basis of harmonisation, reviewed evidence and concluded that after glyphosate is used on crops, "harmful effects" on arthropods "cannot be excluded". Itsays the = chemical should not be included on a list of approved substances pending more = study. David Buffin of the Pesticides Trust, which campaigns against pesticide use, said glyphosate presented a high risk to certain insects and = spiders considered beneficialbecause they kill harmful crop pests. "If you are knocking off the beneficials, it may result in an increase in the insect pests and you have to go in with a fairly invasive insecticide," said Mr Buffin. Monsanto said it would be "improper" to comment, but the company said = that the World Health Organisation had said glyphosate was not carcinogenic. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF16CF.E6D62B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: Gen 10-13, rwolfson@concentric.net
 
 
Thanks to Paul & Katrin Davis <devatalk@mcmail.com>  = for posting=20 this:

U.K. Independent  11.10.99

MONSANTO WEEDKILLER = `WIPES=20 OUT BENEFICIAL INSECTS'


THE WORLD'S biggest-selling = weedkiller, the=20 chemical glyphosate, is facing
a European ban after a confidential = European=20 Union report showed that it
also kills beneficial insects and=20 spiders.

A ban would be a blow to the US group Monsanto, which = produces=20 most of the
world's supply, usually under the name Roundup. It is = central to=20 the
group's production of genetically engineered seeds, as Roundup- = ready=20 seeds
are able to withstand the weedkiller.

Research at Orebro = hospital in Sweden also suggests a higher risk of a
cancer called=20 non-Hodgkin's lymphoma in those exposed to glyphosate.

In Channel = 4 News=20 tonight it is revealed that a confidential EU report says
glyphosate = should=20 not be approved for use in Europe. EU advisers believe
more research = is=20 needed.

At the moment each European state can decide which = weedkillers it=20 approves,
and all have approved glyphosate. But with EU harmonisation = on=20 pesticide
and herbicide expected in the next two years, advisers have = begun
evaluating which should be prohibited.

The report, one = of=20 several that will form the basis of harmonisation,
reviewed evidence = and=20 concluded that after glyphosate is used on crops,
"harmful = effects"=20 on arthropods "cannot be excluded". Itsays the = chemical
should not=20 be included on a list of approved substances pending more = study.

David=20 Buffin of the Pesticides Trust, which campaigns against = pesticide
use, said=20 glyphosate presented a high risk to certain insects and = spiders
considered=20 beneficialbecause they kill harmful crop pests. "If you = are
knocking off=20 the beneficials, it may result in an increase in the insect
pests and = you=20 have to go in with a fairly invasive insecticide," said=20 Mr
Buffin.

Monsanto said it would be "improper" to = comment,=20 but the company said that
the World Health Organisation had said = glyphosate=20 was not carcinogenic.
------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF16CF.E6D62B20-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 15 14:27:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05381 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:27:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00314; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:25:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA29852 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:22:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 63.23.20.136 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:22:29 -0700 Message-ID: <000b01bf173b$0ff09e80$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: re biodynamics Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:28:21 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1967 Further reflections on this thread... I completely agree with Hugh, that this listserve has contributed to a lively discussion, the spreading of ideas (some new, some recycled) and to the notion that not everything biodynamic happens within the old established associations, group and networks. There are many new individuals working with biodynamics, new groups and connections forming and new ideas being embraced. This is definately a positive movement and long overdue. Thanks again to Allan!!! and to everyone who contibutes. However, sweeping statements, like assumes that there is just one community and the author has full assessment over it... not to mention is it really dark and a one-sided view. The very existence and success of this list for one, proves that such is not true. And lets face it, the international interest and practice of biodynamics is spread over a much, much bigger group of people than we are touching with this list. We are not even hearing regularly from the folks who read the comments here, let alone the broader bd public. Its a very small (even if exciting) slice of the bd pie. There is so much positive going on in biodynamics (including this list!), new ideas, new techniques, new farmers and gardeners trying out bd practices every day. Alot to be happy about, alot to get excited about, alot to support. Lets not be oblivious to the problems, but not oblivious to the gifts either. Over time, this forum has seen a fairly high degree of criticism of existing structures, organizations and practices. As far as I can tell (which is certainly limited) much, if not most of this criticism is valid and helpful to know about. On the other hand it has often been mixed with emotion, sometimes with all kinds of energies of the less-than-positive kind. The notion that the bd world is somehow split or polarized sets up a good-bad dichotomy, a win-loose mentality and often leads to comptetative and self-congratulatory kinds of comments explicitly or implicity. None of this kind of one-sided commentary is really accurate, open-minded or helpful. If we can identify issues for improvement, even if they are flagrant, we ought to work on them in a broad minded fashion - especially if we are criticizing the lack thereof in other people and asking for a broader-minded view from the exisiting bd organizations. Stands to reason. One more thing: the notion that somehow it is the of biodynamics to have the effects of bd practices spread all over the world quickly (and that this is the criteria for success or failure of bd) is a very narrow view of the both the biological and spiritual implications of bd and not tied to anything Steiner said himself. On the contrary, there are plenty of comments and statements made by Steiner indicating that a slow, steady, careful approach on small acreage to insure quality and depth of effort (rather than a superficial effort over broad acreage) was his preferred vision of bd development. Not that his ideas should be the only ones we base our work on by any stretch. But if we are going to criticize those who quote Steiner, lets at least also quote him accurately when we do find it necessary for whatever reason. Now it is true that Ehrenfried Pfeffer passed on a comment, often cited, that Steiner made to him personally, about spreading the effects of bd worldwide. I am by no means questioning Pfeiffer's integrity or the fact that Steiner may have said this to him. On the other hand Steiner again and again pointed to doing things with what we might call today and expressed concerns over the rush to do things in a big, broad, sweeping manner, without carefully working in a holistic and thorough manner. He said, when asked, that if he were a farmer, he would farm a very small acreage and try to really penetrate the work with consciousness. He pointed out again and again, in various contexts, that it was his view that working in this way had a much larger effect on changing the world, than broad, sweeping, but often shallow efforts. This brings to mind that maybe a few dozen really good bd farms can have a huge positive effect, far outweighing that of many thousands of poorly run farms??? I dont know. In any case, I want to plead for a more generous view of things and less doom and gloom and heavy handed criticisms. Lets all contribute our very best, get excited about supporting each others experimentations and not get so unbelievably hung up on what we think is good and right for biodynamics - as if we individually really had a corner on that. I am the first to admit to having made this mistake again and again and want to encourage others to join me in letting go of that kind of mentality. It doesn't serve us well. Merry Michaelmas, Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 15 17:18:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08596 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:18:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18695; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:16:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d10.mx (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18209 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:12:34 -0400 (EDT) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hYSQ0O4sAa (7819) for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:12:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.706bed6a.2538f2d1@aol.com> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:12:49 EDT Subject: Re: re biodynamics To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1968 Every great while a really great contribution comes through and Andrew's letter is one of them! Yes let's celebrate what we ARE doing as farmers instead of what we are not. I kick myself enough for not doing everthing I would like to on the farm. Thanks Andew for reminding me of of that unconstructive mindset and circle sometimes coming from within and without. Let it Grow! Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 15 18:52:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09824 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:52:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA26739; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26599 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:48:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.149.164.243 (mx3-100.ilhawaii.net [204.149.164.243]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA16520; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:48:49 -0500 Message-ID: <3807B2E2.7299@smallfarms.com> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 13:04:02 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: re biodynamics References: <0.706bed6a.2538f2d1@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1969 Dear Patrick, I'm new to the bd list. I grass feed and finish market lambs. In the spirit of adventure, please look at smallfarms.com. It's a marketing site for small farmers and ranchers. We are offering free listings to each of the states. See the homepage for details. Please register. I want to put the name, face and voice of the farmer on farmers' products. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 15 19:04:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA09957 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:03:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA27532; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:02:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27256 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (ctca75.vthokies.net [206.153.172.75]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA17893 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:49:09 -0400 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:49:09 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19991015192340.254f9590@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: NLP Mailout Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1970 >X-POP3-Rcpt: mgardner@ctc.swva.net >Return-Path: <101622.2773@compuserve.com> >Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:34:23 -0400 >From: "David J. Heaf" <101622.2773@compuserve.com> >Subject: NLP Mailout >Sender: "David J. Heaf" <101622.2773@compuserve.com> >To: David Heaf <101622.2773@compuserve.com> >Content-Disposition: inline >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by swva.net id RAA16332 > >I have been asked by NLP Wessex (UK) to forward the item below to my >contacts in USA. > >Regards, >David Heaf >Wales, UK > >########################################################### >>SUPPORT FEDERAL LABELING OF GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOODS: >>CONTACT YOUR U.S. REPRESENTATIVE AND SENATORS TODAY! >> >>U.S. Rep. David Bonior (D-Mich.), who was a featured speaker >>at the Natural Law Party's Genetic Engineering Summit in >>Detroit, and U.S. Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) are currently >>circulating a very important letter among members of the U.S. >>House of Representatives. (A similar letter will soon reach >>members of the U.S. Senate.) This sign-on letter calls on the >>Food and Drug Administration to enforce the Food, Drug, and >>Cosmetic Act by requiring mandatory labeling and safety testing >>of genetically engineered foods. >> >>Rep. Bonior, the Democratic Whip in the U.S. House, is working >>in conjuction with 45 national organizations to support this >>crucial initiative. He is the only Member of Congress who was >>willing to accept the 500,000 petition signatures demanding >>mandatory labeling that were submitted to Congress earlier >>this year by Mothers for Natural Law of the Natural Law Party. >> >>PLEASE URGE YOUR REPRESENTATIVE AND SENATORS TO SIGN ON >>TO THIS IMPORTANT LETTER. Just call the national Capitol >>switchboard toll-free at 1-888-449-3511 and ask to speak to >>your Representative or Senators. You can also email your >>Representative directly from http://www.house.gov/writerep. >>To obtain email addresses, mailing addresses, and phone >>numbers for your Senators, just go to http://www.senate.gov >>and select the name of your state; you will then be able to >>link to your Senators' websites. (Your Senators may not have >>seen the letter yet, but you can alert them to support it >>when it arrives.) >> >>If your Representative or Senators would like a copy of the >>Bonior/Kucinich letter, background material about the hazards >>of genetic engineering, or any other pertinent information, >>please ask them to call the Natural Law Party at 800-332-0000, >>ext. 118. Natural Law Party representatives will also be happy >>to visit your Representative or Senator in his or her Washington, >>D.C., office to talk more about this issue. >> >>PLEASE ACT TODAY. Also, please urge your family, friends, and >>everyone in your email address book to participate in this >>crucial initiative to protect the safety of our food supply. >>Be a part of history in the making. Contact your Representative >>and Senators today! >> >> >>================================================================ >>We would like our email postings to reach as many supporters as >>possible. Please encourage your friends to subscribe so we can >>quickly publicize late-breaking news through a powerful national >>email network. >> >>To subscribe, please email us at subscribe@natural-law.org. If >>you would prefer to be removed from this list, please email us >>at unsubscribe@natural-law.org. (No message is necessary.) >########################################################## > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 16 00:06:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA13121 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA12162; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:03:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11260 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:48:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.79] (pm3shep1-163-59.intrepid.net [209.190.163.59]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA06701 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:49:31 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:56:38 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: New Eliott Coleman edition Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1971 >"Four-Season Harvest : How to Harvest Fresh Organic Vegetables from > Your Home Garden All Year Around" > >by > >Eliot Coleman, Barbara Damrosch, Kathy Bray > > List: $24.95 -- Our Price: $19.96 -- You Save: $4.99 (20%) > >Subjects: Vegetable gardening; Organic gardening; Vegetable Crops; > Gardening / Horticulture; Gardening; Vegetables; Organic > >Publisher: Chelsea Green Pub Co >Binding: Paperback >Expected publication date: October 1999 >ISBN: 1890132276 This book has been on the shelf for a few weeks. Does anyone know if it now incorporates 'all' the material from the privately printed season extension 'pamphlet' that he was direct selling for the past year or so? Thanks -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 16 09:44:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16012 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 09:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00750; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 09:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00611 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 09:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-26.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.59]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA22803 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 06:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3808806A.8ABD70B2@ap.net> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 06:40:58 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Alternative Pest Control References: <380357F1.9D591908@pop2.igc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1972 Shannan and James Johnson wrote: > Dear BDers, > > I have a question concerning pest control. I have less than 2 weeks to > put together a talk that includes alternatives to pesticides for our > county PCA's. I am honored that the Ag. Commissioner's office asked for > my input as I have had discussions over topics considered controversial > in our office (UC Coop Ext) that would be of interest to members on this > list. > > I want to approach the talk from a perspective of soil health equals > plant health equals tolerant plants but I need a bit more on what to do > once the system is out of balance. Are there good perennial weed > controls through BD or organic practices? Does anyone know how to get a > hold of Phil Calahan or Tom Dykstra so I can ask them about Paramagnetic > influences on pests? Does the cosmic (Heironymus) pipe have any > documentation or University research that I can refer to? Citations are > very important to me. Otherwise a testimonial will be challenged and I > don't have experience in all these areas to say for certain the claims > are true. What other "unusual" methods of pest control can you throw > out at me that a conventional producer would deem applicable to their > fields. > > One aside, for David's skeptical views I would recommend you read, > "Alternative Science: Challenging the Myths of the Scientific > Establishment" for a better perspective on the contributions of > paranormal and unconventional science. > > I thank you for any contributions and if these topics were discussed in > the past, an archive will do just fine. > > Sincerely, > > James Johnson > Windsor, CA > shanjam@igc.org Hi folks! I didn't intend to appear skeptical, just trying to get my mystical buddies to practice practical philosophy. Weeds, as a good friend of mine once explained are just "plants out of place". And in the circumstances mentioned, were really happy critters growing like gangbusters. The soil and energy sounded perfectly suited to them and my esoteric vision hit the logical wall. Rex's post suggesting that the soil was still the problem - the "weeds" were being fed better than the intended crops - made perfect sense. But the SILENCE from the balance of the list has been unexpected especially from the "deva" end. Thanks for your interest. :o) Davidi/whirlderv@ap.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 16 09:59:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16096 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 09:59:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01330; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 09:57:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01182 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 09:55:53 -0400 (EDT) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp262.cy-net.net [208.21.195.71]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17859 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 08:56:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199910161356.IAA17859@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 07:45:05 -0500 Subject: Volcano shot Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1973 Could whoever posted the photo of the volcano please let us know what's going on with it? I haven't heard news of any ?Equador? volcano lately, was wondering if this was a recent event. Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 16 15:05:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00706 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 15:05:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA17570; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 15:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kirk.hoy.net (dns1.hoy.net [205.235.2.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09127 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:25:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gabicho ([205.235.2.80]) by kirk.hoy.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA18392 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:25:38 -0500 Message-ID: <012101bf17ee$88a78b00$3702ebcd@gabicho> From: gabicho@hoy.net (gabicho) To: "biodinamics" Subject: volcano information Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:52:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0104_01BF17CC.E41657E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1974 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0104_01BF17CC.E41657E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You can get info from the active volcanoes we have at this address: http://www.cybw.net/volcan/ =20 http://www.dmqvolcan.com/ =20 http://www.elcomercio.com/ The pichincha has decrease his activity for the last 10 days, but = farmers next to the volcano had to take out 5000 cattle from the LLOA = valley doe to ash, shaking and the sound.=20 gabriel espinosa gabriel espinosa hda.la alegria aloag-ecuador gabicho@hoy.net ------=_NextPart_000_0104_01BF17CC.E41657E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You can get info from the active = volcanoes we=20 have at this address:
 
 
http://www.cybw.net/volcan/
 
http://www.dmqvolcan.com/
 
http://www.elcomercio.com/=
 
The pichincha has decrease his = activity for the=20 last 10 days, but farmers next to the volcano had to take out 5000 = cattle =20 from the LLOA valley doe to ash, shaking  and the sound. =
 
 
gabriel = espinosa
gabriel espinosa
hda.la=20 alegria
aloag-ecuador
gabicho@hoy.net
------=_NextPart_000_0104_01BF17CC.E41657E0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 16 21:10:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA03913 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 21:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06856; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 21:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kootenay.com (web1.vphos.net [207.102.129.200]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA06083 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 20:54:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.97]) by -0700 PDT ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 17:54:54 -0700 PDT Message-ID: <000001bf183a$3b3ebb80$61cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: Subject: FWD: Bargyla Rateaver on the Future Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 17:50:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1975 To the List: Some of us know the wonderfully named Bargyla Rateaver from the SanNet list. She's an 80-something scientist/gardener who's been doing and preaching organic gardening for far longer than most of us have been alive. This brief post seems to me to put CLOSED on the recent BDNOW! threads about "scientific superstition" and on "schism vs. go-slow" in the BD community. Bargyla's vision, and I guess it's mine since I'm passing this on to you, is of a [much diminished?] population of humans living lightly on Mother Earth, and the vast majority of them growing their own food, without corporate or governmental or organizational input...pretty much the way it's mostly been for the last 12,000 years until the recent aberrations. Woody s Subject: Re: Shameless promotion/Organic landscape I know all you folks don't want to hear it, but it is still the truth--the time is soon coming when there will be nothing but organic worldwide, organic food grown literally from pole to pole, and everyone will grow his/her own food. There will no longer be farmers, not even organic farmers. There will be only people who raise their own food. SOON. There certainly will not be any kind of commerce or ag--just each one raising his own food, and of course it will be, organically. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 16 21:10:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA03918 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 21:10:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06796; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 21:02:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from moose.erie.net (moose.erie.net [208.138.204.11]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21293 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:13:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erie.net (pm8-2.erie.net [208.1.140.114]) by moose.erie.net (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA11121 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:14:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3808DE2C.14C312F6@erie.net> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:21:00 -0400 From: Mark Winschel Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: scientific superstition Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1976 Anita wrote: "Perhaps we can say that "scientific superstition" is just one sympton of narrow mindedness and ego-centrism. The latter being appicable to any paradigm of thought, "scientific" or not. But this would indeed seem to be the age characterized by SCIENCE. I saw the most interesting exhibit not long ago in one of the Wash. DC Smithsonians (Museum of American History, I think) that looked at the way things have changed since the advent of modern science and modern scientific thinking. I wish I could remember the details better, but it is my thoughts and feeling about the exhibit which have stayed with me rather than the facts. What I remember thinking was how clearly they showed that the scientific sword cuts both ways -- how we have some marvelous inventions and lifestyle changes thanks to Science, but we also lost many wonderful understandings and ways of living in the world. The exhibit made it clear that there have been costs along with the benefits, and I thought that was an unusual exhibit indeed.... Also, my favorite tv show, Biography, recently payed homage to the 100 most "influential" people of the millennium, and the top 20 were definately dominated by scientists from Copernicus to Einstein. Made me wonder what and who will characterize the next millennium... Just some thoughts on a cloudy, rainy, Georgia afternoon, Anita Dear Anita: This area of thought is so fascinating to me because we are truly in my opinion entering a new era that will redefine the way we relate to science and spirituality. Until present they have been "largely" seen as separate branches of human experience. But, the truth in my opinion is that they are akin to the left and right hemispheres of the brain. Which could according to some function as one balanced system capable of accessing the rest of the dormant human brain potential. the "dynamic" relationship of the male and female aspects of creation. The dance of form and energy the lyrics and the melody. ultimately meant to become an exalted union of experience that will give birth to ... What do you think? Mark From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 00:04:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA05249 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 00:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA14876; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 00:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08614 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 21:35:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d152.infoserve.net [199.175.157.152]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA25989 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 18:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000801bf1840$e6f73f00$989dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: scientific superstition Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 18:42:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1977 Science (as we think of Science) and Religion were united at one time, then separated. They are, in some areas, getting closer together again. Many prominent scientists do believe in spirituality of some sort. In the future, Science and "religion" is again be united in a new way. Perhaps, BD can be thought of as a forerunner in this process. My guess it that BD will also change with time as the Earth changes and human beings change. My impression participating in this list is that BD has already changed somewhat in the last few years. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Mark Winschel To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, October 16, 1999 6:07 PM Subject: Re: scientific superstition >Anita wrote: > >"Perhaps we can say that "scientific superstition" is just >one sympton >of narrow mindedness and ego-centrism. The latter being >appicable to >any paradigm of thought, "scientific" or not. > >But this would indeed seem to be the age characterized by >SCIENCE. I >saw the most interesting exhibit not long ago in one of the >Wash. DC >Smithsonians (Museum of American History, I think) that >looked at the >way things have changed since the advent of modern science >and modern >scientific thinking. I wish I could remember the details >better, but >it is my thoughts and feeling about the exhibit which have >stayed >with me rather than the facts. What I remember thinking was >how >clearly they showed that the scientific sword cuts both ways >-- how >we have some marvelous inventions and lifestyle changes >thanks to >Science, but we also lost many wonderful understandings and >ways of >living in the world. The exhibit made it clear that there >have been >costs along with the benefits, and I thought that was an >unusual >exhibit indeed.... > >Also, my favorite tv show, Biography, recently payed homage >to the >100 most "influential" people of the millennium, and the top >20 were >definately dominated by scientists from Copernicus to >Einstein. Made >me wonder what and who will characterize the next >millennium... > >Just some thoughts on a cloudy, rainy, Georgia afternoon, >Anita > > >Dear Anita: > >This area of thought is so fascinating to me because we are >truly in my opinion entering a new era that will redefine >the way we relate to science and spirituality. Until >present they have been "largely" seen as separate branches >of human experience. But, the truth in my opinion is that >they are akin to the left and right hemispheres of the >brain. Which could according to some function as one >balanced system capable of accessing the rest of the dormant >human brain potential. > > > the "dynamic" relationship > of the male and female aspects of creation. > The dance of form and energy > the lyrics and the melody. > ultimately meant to become > an exalted union of experience that will give birth > to ... > >What do you think? > >Mark > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 01:03:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA05627 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 01:03:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA18696; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 01:00:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA18550 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 00:56:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Andyschad@aol.com Received: from Andyschad@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hWXEa11018 (3878) for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 00:57:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.3541c760.253ab122@aol.com> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 00:57:06 EDT Subject: Re: re biodynamics To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1978 Hi, Your blame of BD is misguided. It is us and those who went before us who have to take responsibilty for what we through BD have or have not accomplished. How can you hold a "system of agriculture" at fault? I believe it is most important that BD be applied to as great an area as possible; perhaps if this would have happened by now our present biodevastation might have been averted. Critisism like this is destructive. Let us study pioneers like Kolisko or Pfieffer and then face the world with courage! sincerely Andy From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 03:56:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA06507 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 03:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA24277; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 03:54:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA24207 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 03:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.151]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991017075623.PLFP2877486.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:56:23 +1300 Message-ID: <38098100.3344@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:55:44 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: biodynamics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1979 Andrew wrote, Over time, this forum has seen a fairly high degree of criticism of existing structures, organizations and practices. As far as I can tell (which is certainly limited) much, if not most of this criticism is valid and helpful to know about. On the other hand it has often been mixed with emotion, sometimes with all kinds of energies of the less-than-positive kind. GA What is wrong with the expression of emotion. It is an aspect of ones astral body that has every relevance that a thought might have. It is an expression of intensity. Whether the point expressed with emotion is correct is really the issue , not the emotion surely. The notion that the bd world is somehow split or polarized sets up a good-bad dichotomy, a win-loose mentality and often leads to comptetative and self-congratulatory kinds of comments explicitly or implicity. None of this kind of one-sided commentary is really accurate, open-minded or helpful. I disagree with you entirely. The BD world I live in is split. It is all about winners and losers & certainly competitativeness. This is an accurate expression of my experience. Helpful, well if something changes it is very helpful. And given your shift of atittude Andrew I d say it is working fine. Now all we need is for the organisations to be dragged into the light and it will be even more successful. If they need to be shamed into it, then so be it. The time has passed for hiding corruptions in their veil of controlled conspiracies. These organisations of members should be that and not an official tool of validity for a few who manipulate and control the group for their own ends. Go somewhere else and do that. An association of members is just that. It should facilitate communication and community between members not censor and control its life. Officials are not the centre of focus, the members are. Lets see some of it, then I will agree with your fine vision, Andrew. Andrew If we can identify issues for improvement, even if they are flagrant, we ought to work on them in a broad minded fashion - especially if we are criticizing the lack thereof in other people and asking for a broader-minded view from the exisiting bd organizations. Stands to reason. What is not broad minded about speaking ones truth and that of many other members. How about the 50% membership per annum who have left the BDANZ for the last 15years. They saw something very real they did not like. Funnily the committee still have not quiet got what it is. > In any case, I want to plead for a more generous view of things and less > doom and gloom and heavy handed criticisms. Lets all contribute our very > best, get excited about supporting each others experimentations and not get > so unbelievably hung up on what we think is good and right for biodynamics - > as if we individually really had a corner on that. I am the first to admit > to having made this mistake again and again and want to encourage others to > join me in letting go of that kind of mentality. It doesn't serve us well. > > Merry Michaelmas, > Andrew > Meanwhile the same old stuff goes no. I am glad to see your opening up to greater possibilites Andrew, and to the encouragement of that in others. What can you now do to bring this change about in the Saturnian authorities you are connected with? and bring a harmonising between the edge dwelling light bearers and past maintainers? Until the change is apparant where it counts, in my life and in my community, then I support your intentions but believe it dangerous to believe such a call indicates the change has occurred. Vigilence and constant pressure where possible may indeed see a lasting development. We Humans, are so sneaky and persistant in our survival tricks. The present Pluto Juno Chiron Antares conjunction square Venus is a perfect time for addressing abuses of power. More of it and the sooner the better. Sorry to be so 'negative' but whatever it takes. If it is dirty washing and straight talking then so be it. We have tried nice and gracious and it does not seemed to have worked in the last 20 years. So straight up seems all thats left right now. At last we have a forum to air it and yes I am sure the 'officials' would love it to stop. When there is change then it can stop, because that is then whats real. Right now I call as I see it and experience it, everyday. Once again, good to see your broadening Andrew. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 08:38:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07435 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 08:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02098; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 08:36:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01850 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 08:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.99] (pm3shep2-163-99.intrepid.net [209.190.163.99]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA09510 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 08:34:20 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:41:36 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: BDA Conference at Spring Valley Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1980 Did anyone on the list attend this conference last weekend? If so, how was it? What did Mr. Klett have to say? Thanks -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 09:38:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07934 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:38:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04522; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:37:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04336 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip017.computer.net [140.186.252.17]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA26980 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:35:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:37:06 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: October 17, 1999 - October 23, 1999 Message-ID: <7956BF495AB629CB8525680D004AC86A.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id JAA04337 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1981 Calendar of the Soul [October 17, 1999 - October 23, 1999] Twenty-ninth Week (October 20-26) To fan the spark of thinking into flame By my own strong endeavor, To read life's inner meaning Out of the cosmic spirit's fount of strength: This is my summer heritage, My autumn solace, and my winter hope. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Sich selbst des Denkens Leuchten Im Innern kraftvoll zu entfachen, Erlebtes sinnvoll deutend Aus Weltengeistes Kräftequell, Ist mir nun Sommererbe, Ist Herbstesruhe und auch Winterhoffnung. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+29 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 10:08:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08059 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06000; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05883 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:05:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d140.infoserve.net [199.175.157.140]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA19917 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 07:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002701bf18a9$bbed6460$8c9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: book on Asian agriculture-similar to bd? Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 07:13:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0024_01BF186F.0EBD80C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1982 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BF186F.0EBD80C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Deana, I had asked a friend in my local Chinese community. Below is his = response and suggestion. Cheers, Michael Vancouver, BC, Canada Please use Amazon.com to search the book title then you will find the following book. This book is originally written in English as your = friend told you. Maybe you should try the library. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Farmers of Forty Centuries : Or Permanent Agriculture in China, Korea = and Japan by F.H. King Try an out-of-print order 1-Click ordering unavailable for purchasing out-of-print items. ASIN: 0878578676 Availability: This title is out of print. Although it is no longer = available from the publisher, we'll query our network of used bookstores for you = and send an update within one to two weeks. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BF186F.0EBD80C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Deana,
 
  I had asked a friend in my local Chinese community. Below is = his=20 response and suggestion. Cheers,
Michael
Vancouver, BC, Canada

Please use Amazon.com to search the = book title=20 then you will find the
following book. This book is originally = written in=20 English as your friend
told you. Maybe you should try the=20 library.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 =  =20 Farmers of Forty Centuries : Or Permanent Agriculture in China, Korea=20 and
Japan
by F.H. = King
        Try=20 an out-of-print order

1-Click ordering unavailable for purchasing = out-of-print items.

ASIN: 0878578676
Availability: This title = is out=20 of print. Although it is no longer available
from the publisher, = we'll query=20 our network of used bookstores for you and
send an update within one = to two=20 weeks.
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BF186F.0EBD80C0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 11:03:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08442 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08497; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:59:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08419 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.8] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.8]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FJR00AJC7Z9DC@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:49:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:58:28 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: book on Asian agriculture-similar to bd? In-reply-to: <002701bf18a9$bbed6460$8c9dafc7@333> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1983 > Dear Deana, I had asked a friend in my local Chinese community. Below is his response and suggestion. Cheers, Michael Vancouver, BC, Canada > >Please use Amazon.com to search the book title then you will find the >following book. This book is originally written in English as your friend >told you. Maybe you should try the library. >=================================================================== > Farmers of Forty Centuries : Or Permanent Agriculture in China, Korea and >Japan >by F.H. King > Try an out-of-print order > >1-Click ordering unavailable for purchasing out-of-print items. > >ASIN: 0878578676 >Availability: This title is out of print. Although it is no longer available >from the publisher, we'll query our network of used bookstores for you and >send an update within one to two weeks. In a recent visit to Rodale Institute, I have the impression that they did have that particular book in the store. Allan Balliet pointed the book to me, so that he probably remembers best, Do you Allan ??. You can reach the Rodale Inst bookstore at ribooks@rodaleinst.org or (800)-832-6285 Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 14:28:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10494 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:28:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20983; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:26:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20719 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.99] (pm3shep1-163-34.intrepid.net [209.190.163.34]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19213 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:23:08 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <002701bf18a9$bbed6460$8c9dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 02:30:23 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: book on Asian agriculture-similar to bd? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1984 >> Dear Deana, I had asked a friend in my local Chinese community. >>Below is his response and suggestion. Cheers, Michael Vancouver, BC, >>Canada >> >>Please use Amazon.com to search the book title then you will find the >>following book. This book is originally written in English as your friend >>told you. Maybe you should try the library. >>=================================================================== >> Farmers of Forty Centuries : Or Permanent Agriculture in China, Korea >>and >>Japan >>by F.H. King >> Try an out-of-print order >> >>1-Click ordering unavailable for purchasing out-of-print items. >> >>ASIN: 0878578676 >>Availability: This title is out of print. Although it is no longer available >>from the publisher, we'll query our network of used bookstores for you and >>send an update within one to two weeks. > > > > >In a recent visit to Rodale Institute, I have the impression that they did >have that particular book in the store. > >Allan Balliet pointed the book to me, so that he probably remembers best, >Do you Allan ??. > >You can reach the Rodale Inst bookstore at ribooks@rodaleinst.org or >(800)-832-6285 > >Regards > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > There was a current paperback edition available at Rodale and I'm sure at other walk-in stores. (It's apparently an edition by a press that's not interested in Amaon's annoying 'no stock' practices.) I do not think it was a RODALE book. This is a red herring in this discussion, however. The book mentioned was not v. likely to be this book, a book which many people on this list are v. familiar with and a book which, to my knowledge, was never a multi-volume printing. I hope that everyone keeps looking!! :-) Thanks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 14:35:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10570 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:35:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21452; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:33:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz (pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21192 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:30:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.126.235]) by pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991017184001.DIVN1542187.pop2-rme@garudix> for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:40:01 +1300 Message-ID: <380A169A.4553@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:34:02 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: cauliflower spirals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1985 Today I picked a cauliflower with the most beautiful and distinct spirals coming out of each flowerlet. I know there are very pronounced spiral cauliflower varieties, however these are not that variety. They are store bought seedlings. We have picked half a dozen lately with non showing this trait. This one though has it very strongly. Have other folks experienced this phenomena, as part of their growing BD organising influences. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 15:24:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10904 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 15:24:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24304; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 15:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24223 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 15:21:57 -0400 (EDT) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp275.cy-net.net [208.21.195.84]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11314 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:22:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199910171922.OAA11314@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:22:35 -0500 Subject: Re: book on Asian agriculture-similar to bd? Priority: normal In-reply-to: <002701bf18a9$bbed6460$8c9dafc7@333> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1986 When this thread first came up, I did a search in books (out of print) I think I used: http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search I know it came up with two copies from the same bookseller, one for about $17 and one for almost twice that much. The seller was Powells books. Hope this can help. Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 15:43:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11137 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 15:43:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25530; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 15:41:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25369 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 15:40:06 -0400 (EDT) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp275.cy-net.net [208.21.195.84]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13568 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:41:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199910171941.OAA13568@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:40:46 -0500 Subject: Re: book on Asian agriculture-similar to bd? Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1987 Oops, the book search was Best Book Finds and the pg itself is: http://www.bestbookbuys.com/cgi- bin/bbb.cgi?searchparam=farmers+of+forty+centuries&searchtype= Title Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 18:15:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12353 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:15:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07798; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:13:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com [207.46.181.18]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA07582 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 63.23.36.205 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 15:10:06 -0700 Message-ID: <006d01bf18ed$317796e0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 15:15:11 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1988 (Glenn) Hmmm..dont think so Glenn. How we do things is probably equally important as to what. With regards to biodynamics that is surely not lost on you. I dont think that it is any different in the rest of our lives. Besides, I wasnt talking about simply but . Anyway, the point is simply that yes, there is a time to stand up and say no, to change things, to right wrongs, etc. Sometimes that can require harsh words and even revolutionary actions. If the situation there is so terrible and you cant change things by being as you say, then start your own bd group or association, your own farm, school, consulting company, whatever, if thats whats needed or write your perspective in books, speak publically, etc. Take people to court if things are happening that are unlawful. Take the message to the people (clients, customers, target audiences, members, whatever) if whats important isnt being said, heard, shared. And I guess, if people into the light of day is what is needed, so be it. There is a time for every season. On the whole, though, most good things dont come from complaint, criticism, angry words, aggrevated assault (of the verbal kind) and finger-pointing. Most good things are not built with anger. Anger is a tearing down process and sometimes is necessary. Building up is another matter. As the good book says, we shall know you by your fruit. Doing good takes so much more (and different energy) that fighting what isnt working. Trying to fix what is broken is certainly one path, creating things that work is another. I was merely suggesting that the former is not as significant and the latter. Besides, after a while the anger thing gets boring. All the best, Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 20:12:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA12982 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:12:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15569; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:10:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15129 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:06:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.99] (pm3shep2-163-94.intrepid.net [209.190.163.94]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA06607 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:07:16 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:14:32 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: re: biodynamics Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id UAA15130 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1989 For Andrew, Merry, Glen with one "n", There is a story from old Japan about a samurai and a prisoner that may be helpful in your discussions and thoughts. The story is gory and coarse, so please donít read it if you are at all sensitive. After a battle, a samurai was standing guard over a group of prisoners who whose arms were bound to their sides and hands tied at their backs. The samurai couldn't help notice, that one of the prisoners had fixed an intense glare on him. He asked the prisoner why the prisoner was staring at him in this manner. Without breaking his stare, the prisoner spat and said that after the samurai executed him, he would be coming back to take revenge on the samurai. The samurai turned and laughed, which only intensified the prisonerís rage. Then he faced the prisoner and told the prisoner that he had no such powers. The prisoner scoffed at this remark and became even more agitated. Then the samurai said, ìIf you have such powers, let me see you bite off a piece of the rock next to you.î The prisoner lunged over onto his side and with every ounce of energy he had began biting, furiously, attacking the rock. The samuraiís sword left its scabbard, cut off the prisonerís head and returned to the scabbard in one continuous motion. The prisonerís head continued biting passionately at the rock, which by now was in several pieces. Any relevance for us? Glenn with two "n"'s From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 20:12:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA12988 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:12:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15625; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:10:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15154 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.99] (pm3shep2-163-94.intrepid.net [209.190.163.94]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA06671 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:07:40 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38098100.3344@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:14:55 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: biodynamics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1990 Which reminds me: has anyone received the Sept/Oct issue of the US BDA journal "BIODYNAMICS"? I have yet to receive mine. Thanks, -Allan Balliett From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 20:38:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13229 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA17224; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:36:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA17076 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:35:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from laquerencia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EN6Z7YQX; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:34:29 EDT To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 19:35:26 -0500 Subject: OFF: treating sick animals Message-ID: <19991017.193527.17302.0.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: <006d01bf18ed$317796e0$408ebdc6@staff.santarosa.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,7-11 From: Deborah M Byron Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1991 Dear BD Friends, I'd like to learn how to treat minor medical problems more effectively for my cats. When one of the kittens got stung by a wasp this summer, I was thrilled to see how well homeopathy worked (Apis and Ledum @ 30x). Now the other one has had a urinary problem and the resulting vet bill almost killed *me*. Can anyone on this list suggest a good book or web site on natural medicine for cats? Thanks, Deborah Byron Laquerencia@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 20:57:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13386 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18676; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18626 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:55:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d147.infoserve.net [199.175.157.147]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA13265 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000a01bf1904$86ccde40$939dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: biodynamics Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:03:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1992 Received mine a few days ago. Michael N. Vancouver, BC, Canada. -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 5:16 PM Subject: Re: biodynamics >Which reminds me: has anyone received the Sept/Oct issue of the US BDA >journal "BIODYNAMICS"? I have yet to receive mine. > >Thanks, > >-Allan Balliett > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 22:09:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA13907 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 22:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA23448; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 22:07:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA23220 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 22:05:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (cust156.nrvmax5.tor1.netrover.com [205.209.27.156]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA07533 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 22:06:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Envelope-From: villager@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: Re: biodynamics Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 21:54:37 -0400 Message-ID: <01bf190b$bbf51900$4c1bd1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1993 Me 2, few days ago... -----Original Message----- From: Michael Roboz >Received mine a few days ago. >Michael >N. Vancouver, BC, Canada. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Allan Balliett >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 5:16 PM >Subject: Re: biodynamics > > >>Which reminds me: has anyone received the Sept/Oct issue of the US BDA >>journal "BIODYNAMICS"? I have yet to receive mine. >> >>Thanks, >> >>-Allan Balliett >> >> > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 17 23:06:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA14448 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA26915; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:04:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26727 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:00:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-76.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.76]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA14907 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:01:22 +1000 Message-ID: <00bc01bf1914$bf06d6c0$4c431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Alternative Pest Control Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:23:42 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1994 Dear James, I thought everyone else would also rush in with answers. We have had many discussions on this list, so maybe if you go to the archives and look up pest control, you will have plenty of material. We have discussed peppering and various ways of coping with slugs and snails, with heliothis, (Hugh Lovell has had some great pieces there) I have put on a whole article on peppering, and Michael Roboz has had some great insights into insects etc. Maria Thuns book, "and and the Constellations" has a great section about peppering too. (Peppering is where the skin of an animal or the seeds of the weed, or the insect is burnt at a specific time, and the ashes ground up and spread out onto the area that needs to repel them. The "Pepper" an also be potentised to a higher potency so that the use of the peppers can go further ) Just a additional note on peppering, (and yes we are keeping records Malcolm,) one of our farmers has overcome a great problem of fruit bats around his orchard. He peppered a fruit bat and potentised to 6x, sprayed around the edge of the orchard, about 1/2 acre, and now the fruit bats congregate around the edges with the bower birds that he also peppered (6x) making a great noise of frustration AND DO NOT GO IN! The neighbours have lost so much fruit and are so impressed that they asked them to spray their place too. The interesting aspect is, that on testing for the potency they had to go to 60x !! I said to the BD Farmers, (before I knew the new potency,) that it probably wouldn't work, as the neighbours had no BD preps on the ground, and they both looked at each other and said, that must be why we had to go so much higher for them!!. I have had other (sensitive )BD people say that the BD preps are needed to "anchor " the energies into the ground. That without the BD preps, the earth is not sensitive enough to pick up on the vibrations of the peppers or even cosmic energies, I feel. Interesting that the 60x was required for the unprepped earth. ( I would say we were getting past the etheric into the astral realm here?) Back to the peppering of the fruit bats and bower birds, they have sprayed two nights and plan the third in succession, all in Moon in Sagittarius, fruit sign. And after the first spraying the neighbours had not attack either and saw many bats and birds around the edges making a great noise!. So James, it is a huge subject, which requires a lot of understanding and is still being developed. I would suggest that you could says that there are ways to work, apart from killing and spraying with poisons, and that a lot of empirical work is being done with it. In pasture and vegetable growing, we are getting great results with application of all the preparations, especially Prep.501, as it is able to raise the sugar levels in the sap and this repels insect attack - so healthy soil creates healthy plants and animals. Best wishes with your talk, Cheryl Kemp Education & News Leaf Editor Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 -----Original Message----- From: David Isaacs To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, 16 October 1999 11:46 pm Subject: Re: Alternative Pest Control > > >Shannan and James Johnson wrote: > >> Dear BDers, >> >> I have a question concerning pest control. I have less than 2 weeks to >> put together a talk that includes alternatives to pesticides for our >> county PCA's. I am honored that the Ag. Commissioner's office asked for >> my input as I have had discussions over topics considered controversial >> in our office (UC Coop Ext) that would be of interest to members on this >> list. >> >> I want to approach the talk from a perspective of soil health equals >> plant health equals tolerant plants but I need a bit more on what to do >> once the system is out of balance. Are there good perennial weed >> controls through BD or organic practices? Does anyone know how to get a >> hold of Phil Calahan or Tom Dykstra so I can ask them about Paramagnetic >> influences on pests? Does the cosmic (Heironymus) pipe have any >> documentation or University research that I can refer to? Citations are >> very important to me. Otherwise a testimonial will be challenged and I >> don't have experience in all these areas to say for certain the claims >> are true. What other "unusual" methods of pest control can you throw >> out at me that a conventional producer would deem applicable to their >> fields. >> >> One aside, for David's skeptical views I would recommend you read, >> "Alternative Science: Challenging the Myths of the Scientific >> Establishment" for a better perspective on the contributions of >> paranormal and unconventional science. >> >> I thank you for any contributions and if these topics were discussed in >> the past, an archive will do just fine. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> James Johnson >> Windsor, CA >> shanjam@igc.org > >Hi folks! > >I didn't intend to appear skeptical, just trying to get my mystical buddies >to practice practical philosophy. Weeds, as a good friend of mine once >explained are just "plants out of place". And in the circumstances >mentioned, were really happy critters growing like gangbusters. The soil >and energy sounded perfectly suited to them and my esoteric vision hit the >logical wall. Rex's post suggesting that the soil was still the problem - >the "weeds" were being fed better than the intended crops - made perfect >sense. > >But the SILENCE from the balance of the list has been unexpected especially >from the "deva" end. Thanks for your interest. > >:o) Davidi/whirlderv@ap.net > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 00:11:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA15183 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 00:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA01903; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 00:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz (pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA01807 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 00:08:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.161.168]) by pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991018041757.HDYM1542187.pop2-rme@garudix> for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:17:57 +1300 Message-ID: <380A9E10.4918@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:12:00 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics References: <006d01bf18ed$317796e0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1995 agdoc wrote: > > correct is really the issue, not the emotion surely.> (Glenn) > > Hmmm..dont think so Glenn. How we do things is probably equally important as > to what. With regards to biodynamics that is surely not lost on you. I dont > think that it is any different in the rest of our lives. > > Besides, I wasnt talking about simply but less-than-wonderful-kind>. Anyway, the point is simply that yes, there is a > time to stand up and say no, to change things, to right wrongs, etc. > Sometimes that can require harsh words and even revolutionary actions. If > the situation there is so terrible and you cant change things by being > as you say, then start your own bd group or association, your own > farm, school, consulting company, whatever, if thats whats needed or write > your perspective in books, speak publically, etc. Take people to court if > things are happening that are unlawful. Take the message to the people > (clients, customers, target audiences, members, whatever) if whats important > isnt being said, heard, shared. And I guess, if people into the > light of day is what is needed, so be it. There is a time for every season. > Is not this just creating the split we/you are saying is not a good thing for the BD movement. I believe everyone I know who has a beef is off doing their own thing. Is this the point though. In this case, our offical Associations become an ass, of no credibility and a hinderance to everyone who is working towards the good. They are the Saturn, they are the authority to all who need them. Yet they cause more harm than good. Is it not the responsibility of its members to bring about and to constantly ensure, its healthy life. This is not another commercial company, this is an association of members, using the voice of the members as its credibility. One problem we have is our BDAs have become commercial activites with wages to pay and preps to sell and trademarks to uphold. Peoples survival becomes threatened and the Association must be controlled by the few it supports, for their own survival. At this point our association becomes our competition. It looses its purpose as a social cultural organism and harmonious support of all sectors of the the community disappears. Members working in the same field but not employed by the association become competitiors and the enemy. This is sick and sad and in need of discussing. Out loud. It makes an ass of Anthroposophy and Rudolf Steiner and is not helpful at all. > On the whole, though, most good things dont come from complaint, criticism, > angry words, aggrevated assault (of the verbal kind) and finger-pointing. > Most good things are not built with anger. Anger is a tearing down process > and sometimes is necessary. Building up is another matter. As the good book > says, we shall know you by your fruit. Doing good takes so much more (and > different energy) that fighting what isnt working. Trying to fix what is > broken is certainly one path, creating things that work is another. I was > merely suggesting that the former is not as significant and the latter. > > Besides, after a while the anger thing gets boring. > > All the best, > Andrew So does the abuse of power and competition amoungst comrades. Innovative edges are hard enough without insecure beaurocrats getting in the way of the true community providing the necessary warmth for such innovation to come into full life. Why would you imagine, Andrew would 20 years of practical commercialised development upon Koliskos "Agriculture of Tomorrow" have received a total of five minutes presentation time to the NZ BD community. Even given that after that 5 minutes the AGM members present declared the work an appropriate part of BD and to be supported by the Association. Why would offers of experiments between 500 and potentised preps come to nothing due to BDANZ inaction. What is going on here Andrew, is this reasonable, ethical, morally just and worthy of being 'nice' about???? Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:06:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19758 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:06:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27455; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:03:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25891 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:38:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0139F33D@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 9:38:47 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 18 Oct 99 09:38:48 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 18 Oct 99 09:38:31 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:38:22 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: scientific superstition Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3808DE2C.14C312F6@erie.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1996 > Dear Anita: > > This area of thought is so fascinating to me because we are > truly in my opinion entering a new era that will redefine > the way we relate to science and spirituality. Until > present they have been "largely" seen as separate branches > of human experience. But, the truth in my opinion is that > they are akin to the left and right hemispheres of the > brain. Which could according to some function as one > balanced system capable of accessing the rest of the dormant > human brain potential. > > > the "dynamic" relationship > of the male and female aspects of creation. > The dance of form and energy > the lyrics and the melody. > ultimately meant to become > an exalted union of experience that will give birth > to ... > > What do you think? > > Mark Dear Mark, I think you are absolutely right! I have been thinking about this train of thought a lot lately too, especially after some posts from Tony and David. I'm paying more attention to what scientists are saying lately (for example those who write on the Sustainable Ag Network list), and suddenly Steiner's words "scientific superstition" have much more meaning for me: Science without spiritual grounding, knowlege without wisdom, goal setting without vision. After a while it just sounds like blather, and one wants to scream "why?" and "who cares?" and "what is the good of that?" or "duh! we already knew that through other means!" I've heard the saying, "when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail." Well, sometimes a nail is what you have and a hammer is what you need, but not always. Sometimes what we want to measure can be looked at in terms of the periodic table of elements or a mathematical equation, and sometimes not. We need more than hammers in the tool box. The more I read scientists and the more I read what once sounded like goofy hokus pokus on this list, the more I appreciate this list! Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:16:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19964 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:16:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28074; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:13:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from medusa.icx.net (medusa.icx.net [206.96.250.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26574 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:49:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bcp.gtsduratek.com (max1ag.icx.net [208.134.108.34]) by medusa.icx.net (IDG-2.7/1.3nr) with SMTP id JAA21459 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:49:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SEG#u#DOM-Message_Server by bcp.gtsduratek.com with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:50:38 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:50:05 -0400 From: Kimberlie Cole To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: re biodynamics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1997 I noticed on the smallfarm.com page, you may only post items that are owned by the producer throughout processing. We raise grass-fed beef and lamb also, but since we must use a custom processor (no USDA facilities convenient to us), we cannot post these farm products. (Regulations require selling "on the hoof" if it's not processed at a USDA facility.) We did put our other farm products on the page though. Other than this one restriction, I think it's great! >>> Glenn 10/15/99 07:04PM >>> Dear Patrick, I'm new to the bd list. I grass feed and finish market lambs. In the spirit of adventure, please look at smallfarms.com. It's a marketing site for small farmers and ranchers. We are offering free listings to each of the states. See the homepage for details. Please register. I want to put the name, face and voice of the farmer on farmers' products. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com ! ! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:20:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20020 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28575; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26989 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:55:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0139F938@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 9:56:41 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 18 Oct 99 09:56:42 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 18 Oct 99 09:56:35 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:56:35 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FWD: Bargyla Rateaver on the Future Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000001bf183a$3b3ebb80$61cb6cce@netacc.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1998 Hi Woody, Having had much personal corrospondence with Bargyla, I'm pretty sure that what she is refering to here is her vision of the post apocolyptic planet Earth. She has been trying (without much success, I admit) to show me how the Bible proves that the Second Coming is eminent, and that all good Christians will rise from the dead (after all the baddies are exterminated or something) and live like Adam and Eve in the literal original Garden of Eden (which is on this physical planet) under the benign dictatorship of Jesus and his angel bureaucrats. Or something like that. I really like Bargyla too, but on these topics I've found that our views are pretty different and that we have very little room for discussion. Anyway, the reason she says, "I know you folks don't want to hear it," is because she knows people don't like to be preached (as in bible-thumped) at. Nevertheless, this is urgent information that needs to be spread in her opinion. Bargyla has no use for "pagan myths" like reincarnation, an immortal soul, or probably most of the stuff in Anthroposophy. But this isn't meant to demean any other interpretation you may have given to her words. I think it's interesting how diverse are the paths which lead many to organic agriculture... Anita > To the List: Some of us know the wonderfully named Bargyla Rateaver from > the SanNet list. She's an 80-something scientist/gardener who's been doing > and preaching organic gardening for far longer than most of us have been > alive. This brief post seems to me to put CLOSED on the recent BDNOW! > threads about "scientific superstition" and on "schism vs. go-slow" in the > BD community. Bargyla's vision, and I guess it's mine since I'm passing > this on to you, is of a [much diminished?] population of humans living > lightly on Mother Earth, and the vast majority of them growing their own > food, without corporate or governmental or organizational input...pretty > much the way it's mostly been for the last 12,000 years until the recent > aberrations. > > Woody > > s > Subject: Re: Shameless promotion/Organic landscape > > I know all you folks don't want to hear it, but it is still the truth--the > time > is soon coming when there will be nothing but organic worldwide, organic > food > grown literally from pole to pole, and everyone will grow his/her own food. > There will no longer be farmers, not even organic farmers. There will be > only > people who raise their own food. SOON. There certainly will not be any kind > of > commerce or ag--just each one raising his own food, and of course it will > be, > organically. > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:20:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20031 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28674; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:18:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acc.haverford.edu (acc.haverford.edu [165.82.1.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27101 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:58:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [165.82.19.116] (s116.magill.haverford.edu [165.82.19.116]) by acc.haverford.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA23690 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:54:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:58:09 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Bruce Bumbarger Subject: Re: BDA Conference at Spring Valley Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1999 Allan and others interested: I didn't attend the conference, but from brief conversations with a few who did it sounds like it was a good weekend. One described it as the best he'd been to in years, I think in large part due to a sense of community and renewal of purpose that he felt was shared by many of those who were there. Sounds like much the same feeling that Andrew described in his posting about the California conference in September. Manfred Klett didn't make it to either conference; he was apparently ill, perhaps hospitalized (not sure of the details) and couldn't make the trip. It's my understanding that things went well despite this. I have an article on some aspects of the California conference that will be going into the Nov/Dec issue of BIODYNAMICS. I also have several tapes of talks from the Spring Valley sessions which are being transcribed; some should be appearing as articles in upcoming issues of the journal and perhaps posted on the BDA website. I can let you know once I get a better idea of what's there. Bruce >Did anyone on the list attend this conference last weekend? > >If so, how was it? > > >What did Mr. Klett have to say? > >Thanks > >-Allan Balliett >igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:46:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20544 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:46:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01307; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:44:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00957 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 63.17.197.76 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:41:36 -0700 Message-ID: <001d01bf1977$b86fcac0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: RE Biodynamics: towards peace, dignity & healing Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:47:36 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2000 Dear Glenn, Thank you for your last letter. It shares your pain, grief, disbelief and anguish. I am very sorry that you have had to experience all these things and for so long. And, believe me if you can, I can relate. Of course, I have no clue as to what the is in your situation. As you describe it - it sounds bleak and very challenging. Competition amoung supposed soul-mates is one of the greatest challenges to overcome. In fact, it seems to me, that in our anthroposophical communities (this includes biodynamics) gossip, jealousy and competition are the three great enemies of community. They are truly the sources of our inability to form healthy relationships. Overcoming them is essential for any progress. I guess, where I was coming from is that overcoming these (and other challenges) often can only really, successfully happen with their opposites, not with similar tactics. In other words, fighting fire with fire only begets more fire. Yes, as I have agreed before, there is a place for revolution, but by and large, sustainable, permanent improvements come through carefully crafted positive steps. In the sculpture, that Steiner made from wood, the so-called sculpture, he portraits a suggested path for humanity moving forward between the various forces of negativity, evil and destruction. Although recognizing the challenging forces (not being blind), the representative moves forward with a steady gaze on the future and on what is essential. The very act of holding steady without loosing ones equinimity pushes the negative forces to dispair and self-defeat. It is a different approach to overcoming challenges. I have been tempted on so many occaisions (again in recent years) to what I see as wrong (as if I really knew) in biodynamics here in our country. However, I have had to again and again learn that people dont really change much and if they do, it is certainly not through the loud or heavy-handed tactics of others. People may want to change, but they dont want to be changed. Change comes hard and slowly. Often, usually, almost always modeling a better path is 100 times more powerful than critiquing the old interms of being an actual change agent. Plus there is always the issue of freedom. I really do feel for your situation Glenn, and again I am very sorry that you have had to bear all this. Lili Kolisko's work is also very dear to my heart and I can just from that point of view sympathize a great deal. For years her work has been ignored and left unspoken in this country too, let alone worked with. Finally, after years of working on this myself, I was able to form the Kolisko Institute, earlier this fall. Several fine researchers and educators are working together now quietly to renew our spiritual research in biodynamics. We will have a web-site soon to explain our work and hopes ... and to promote research and education in biodynamics in the spirit of her work. It will remain a modest effort, but one born not of protest, but simply of positive focus. I hope this too, can inspire you. Peace, dignity and healing...are they not our goals? Do we not need to focus all of our attention on them? All the best, Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:53:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20695 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02058; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01701 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:48:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08621 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:52:08 -0700 Message-ID: <380B348A.8A67672A@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:54:03 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: re biodynamics References: <000b01bf173b$0ff09e80$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2001 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU agdoc wrote: > Further reflections on this thread... > > I completely agree with Hugh, that this listserve has contributed to a > lively discussion, the spreading of ideas (some new, some recycled) and to > the notion that not everything biodynamic happens within the old established > associations, group and networks. There are many new individuals working > with biodynamics, new groups and connections forming and new ideas being > embraced. This is definately a positive movement and long overdue. Thanks > again to Allan!!! and to everyone who contibutes. > > However, sweeping statements, like > assumes that there is just one community and the author has full assessment > over it... not to mention is it really dark and a one-sided view. The very > existence and success of this list for one, proves that such is not true. > And lets face it, the international interest and practice of biodynamics is > spread over a much, much bigger group of people than we are touching with > this list. We are not even hearing regularly from the folks who read the > comments here, let alone the broader bd public. Its a very small (even if > exciting) slice of the bd pie. There is so much positive going on in > biodynamics (including this list!), new ideas, new techniques, new farmers > and gardeners trying out bd practices every day. Alot to be happy about, > alot to get excited about, alot to support. Lets not be oblivious to the > problems, but not oblivious to the gifts either. > > Over time, this forum has seen a fairly high degree of criticism of existing > structures, organizations and practices. As far as I can tell (which is > certainly limited) much, if not most of this criticism is valid and helpful > to know about. On the other hand it has often been mixed with emotion, > sometimes with all kinds of energies of the less-than-positive kind. The > notion that the bd world is somehow split or polarized sets up a good-bad > dichotomy, a win-loose mentality and often leads to comptetative and > self-congratulatory kinds of comments explicitly or implicity. None of this > kind of one-sided commentary is really accurate, open-minded or helpful. If > we can identify issues for improvement, even if they are flagrant, we ought > to work on them in a broad minded fashion - especially if we are criticizing > the lack thereof in other people and asking for a broader-minded view from > the exisiting bd organizations. Stands to reason. > > One more thing: the notion that somehow it is the of biodynamics to > have the effects of bd practices spread all over the world quickly (and that > this is the criteria for success or failure of bd) is a very narrow view of > the both the biological and spiritual implications of bd and not tied to > anything Steiner said himself. On the contrary, there are plenty of comments > and statements made by Steiner indicating that a slow, steady, careful > approach on small acreage to insure quality and depth of effort (rather than > a superficial effort over broad acreage) was his preferred vision of bd > development. Not that his ideas should be the only ones we base our work on > by any stretch. But if we are going to criticize those who quote Steiner, > lets at least also quote him accurately when we do find it necessary for > whatever reason. > > Now it is true that Ehrenfried Pfeffer passed on a comment, often cited, > that Steiner made to him personally, about spreading the effects of bd > worldwide. I am by no means questioning Pfeiffer's integrity or the fact > that Steiner may have said this to him. On the other hand Steiner again and > again pointed to doing things with what we might call today integrity> and expressed concerns over the rush to do things in a big, > broad, sweeping manner, without carefully working in a holistic and thorough > manner. He said, when asked, that if he were a farmer, he would farm a very > small acreage and try to really penetrate the work with consciousness. He > pointed out again and again, in various contexts, that it was his view that > working in this way had a much larger effect on changing the world, than > broad, sweeping, but often shallow efforts. This brings to mind that maybe a > few dozen really good bd farms can have a huge positive effect, far > outweighing that of many thousands of poorly run farms??? I dont know. > > In any case, I want to plead for a more generous view of things and less > doom and gloom and heavy handed criticisms. Lets all contribute our very > best, get excited about supporting each others experimentations and not get > so unbelievably hung up on what we think is good and right for biodynamics - > as if we individually really had a corner on that. I am the first to admit > to having made this mistake again and again and want to encourage others to > join me in letting go of that kind of mentality. It doesn't serve us well. > > Merry Michaelmas, > Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:53:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20709 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:53:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02104; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01712 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:48:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08638 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:52:23 -0700 Message-ID: <380B349B.6193C3C9@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:54:19 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: re biodynamics References: <0.706bed6a.2538f2d1@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2002 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU PatandLiz@aol.com wrote: > Every great while a really great contribution comes through and Andrew's > letter is one of them! Yes let's celebrate what we ARE doing as farmers > instead of what we are not. I kick myself enough for not doing everthing I > would like to on the farm. Thanks Andew for reminding me of of that > unconstructive mindset and circle sometimes coming from within and without. > > Let it Grow! Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:53:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20718 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:53:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02158; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01744 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:48:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08652 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:52:43 -0700 Message-ID: <380B34AE.F5DC9451@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:54:39 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: NLP Mailout References: <1.5.4.16.19991015192340.254f9590@swva.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2003 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOUV malcolm ian gardner wrote: > >X-POP3-Rcpt: mgardner@ctc.swva.net > >Return-Path: <101622.2773@compuserve.com> > >Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:34:23 -0400 > >From: "David J. Heaf" <101622.2773@compuserve.com> > >Subject: NLP Mailout > >Sender: "David J. Heaf" <101622.2773@compuserve.com> > >To: David Heaf <101622.2773@compuserve.com> > >Content-Disposition: inline > >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by swva.net id RAA16332 > > > >I have been asked by NLP Wessex (UK) to forward the item below to my > >contacts in USA. > > > >Regards, > >David Heaf > >Wales, UK > > > >########################################################### > >>SUPPORT FEDERAL LABELING OF GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOODS: > >>CONTACT YOUR U.S. REPRESENTATIVE AND SENATORS TODAY! > >> > >>U.S. Rep. David Bonior (D-Mich.), who was a featured speaker > >>at the Natural Law Party's Genetic Engineering Summit in > >>Detroit, and U.S. Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) are currently > >>circulating a very important letter among members of the U.S. > >>House of Representatives. (A similar letter will soon reach > >>members of the U.S. Senate.) This sign-on letter calls on the > >>Food and Drug Administration to enforce the Food, Drug, and > >>Cosmetic Act by requiring mandatory labeling and safety testing > >>of genetically engineered foods. > >> > >>Rep. Bonior, the Democratic Whip in the U.S. House, is working > >>in conjuction with 45 national organizations to support this > >>crucial initiative. He is the only Member of Congress who was > >>willing to accept the 500,000 petition signatures demanding > >>mandatory labeling that were submitted to Congress earlier > >>this year by Mothers for Natural Law of the Natural Law Party. > >> > >>PLEASE URGE YOUR REPRESENTATIVE AND SENATORS TO SIGN ON > >>TO THIS IMPORTANT LETTER. Just call the national Capitol > >>switchboard toll-free at 1-888-449-3511 and ask to speak to > >>your Representative or Senators. You can also email your > >>Representative directly from http://www.house.gov/writerep. > >>To obtain email addresses, mailing addresses, and phone > >>numbers for your Senators, just go to http://www.senate.gov > >>and select the name of your state; you will then be able to > >>link to your Senators' websites. (Your Senators may not have > >>seen the letter yet, but you can alert them to support it > >>when it arrives.) > >> > >>If your Representative or Senators would like a copy of the > >>Bonior/Kucinich letter, background material about the hazards > >>of genetic engineering, or any other pertinent information, > >>please ask them to call the Natural Law Party at 800-332-0000, > >>ext. 118. Natural Law Party representatives will also be happy > >>to visit your Representative or Senator in his or her Washington, > >>D.C., office to talk more about this issue. > >> > >>PLEASE ACT TODAY. Also, please urge your family, friends, and > >>everyone in your email address book to participate in this > >>crucial initiative to protect the safety of our food supply. > >>Be a part of history in the making. Contact your Representative > >>and Senators today! > >> > >> > >>================================================================ > >>We would like our email postings to reach as many supporters as > >>possible. Please encourage your friends to subscribe so we can > >>quickly publicize late-breaking news through a powerful national > >>email network. > >> > >>To subscribe, please email us at subscribe@natural-law.org. If > >>you would prefer to be removed from this list, please email us > >>at unsubscribe@natural-law.org. (No message is necessary.) > >########################################################## > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:54:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20729 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:54:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02199; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01783 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:49:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08669 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:52:58 -0700 Message-ID: <380B34BD.ACF236BD@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:54:54 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: re biodynamics References: <0.706bed6a.2538f2d1@aol.com> <3807B2E2.7299@smallfarms.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2004 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Glenn wrote: > Dear Patrick, > > I'm new to the bd list. I grass feed and finish market lambs. In the > spirit of adventure, please look at smallfarms.com. It's a marketing > site for small farmers and ranchers. > > We are offering free listings to each of the states. See the homepage > for details. > > Please register. I want to put the name, face and voice of the farmer > on farmers' products. > > glenn > Buy from the Farmer > http://www.smallfarms.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:54:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20737 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:54:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02236; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:52:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01801 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:49:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08690 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:53:18 -0700 Message-ID: <380B34D2.E73E781E@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:55:14 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Volcano shot References: <199910161356.IAA17859@portal.txcyber.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2005 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU flylo@txcyber.com wrote: > Could whoever posted the photo of the volcano please let us know > what's going on with it? I haven't heard news of any ?Equador? > volcano lately, was wondering if this was a recent event. > > Martha, (Texas) > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:54:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20763 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:54:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02348; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01888 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:50:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08721 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:54:10 -0700 Message-ID: <380B3506.6CB6E1E2@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:56:06 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: volcano information References: <012101bf17ee$88a78b00$3702ebcd@gabicho> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2006 > PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOUgabicho wrote: > > You can get info from the active volcanoes we have at this address: > > > http://www.cybw.net/volcan/ > > http://www.dmqvolcan.com/ > > http://www.elcomercio.com/ > > The pichincha has decrease his activity for the last 10 days, but farmers next to the volcano had to take out 5000 cattle from the LLOA valley doe to ash, shaking and the sound. > > > gabriel espinosa > gabriel espinosa > hda.la alegria > aloag-ecuador > gabicho@hoy.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:55:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20779 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:55:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02397; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:53:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01911 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:50:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08730 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:54:24 -0700 Message-ID: <380B3514.3CA1880B@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:56:20 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: New Eliott Coleman edition References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2007 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Allan Balliett wrote: > >"Four-Season Harvest : How to Harvest Fresh Organic Vegetables from > > Your Home Garden All Year Around" > > > >by > > > >Eliot Coleman, Barbara Damrosch, Kathy Bray > > > > List: $24.95 -- Our Price: $19.96 -- You Save: $4.99 (20%) > > > >Subjects: Vegetable gardening; Organic gardening; Vegetable Crops; > > Gardening / Horticulture; Gardening; Vegetables; Organic > > > >Publisher: Chelsea Green Pub Co > >Binding: Paperback > >Expected publication date: October 1999 > >ISBN: 1890132276 > > This book has been on the shelf for a few weeks. Does anyone know if it now > incorporates 'all' the material from the privately printed season extension > 'pamphlet' that he was direct selling for the past year or so? > > Thanks > > -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:55:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20791 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02300; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:52:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01846 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08700 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:53:39 -0700 Message-ID: <380B34E8.76525DD7@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:55:36 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Alternative Pest Control References: <380357F1.9D591908@pop2.igc.org> <3808806A.8ABD70B2@ap.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2008 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU David Isaacs wrote: > Shannan and James Johnson wrote: > > > Dear BDers, > > > > I have a question concerning pest control. I have less than 2 weeks to > > put together a talk that includes alternatives to pesticides for our > > county PCA's. I am honored that the Ag. Commissioner's office asked for > > my input as I have had discussions over topics considered controversial > > in our office (UC Coop Ext) that would be of interest to members on this > > list. > > > > I want to approach the talk from a perspective of soil health equals > > plant health equals tolerant plants but I need a bit more on what to do > > once the system is out of balance. Are there good perennial weed > > controls through BD or organic practices? Does anyone know how to get a > > hold of Phil Calahan or Tom Dykstra so I can ask them about Paramagnetic > > influences on pests? Does the cosmic (Heironymus) pipe have any > > documentation or University research that I can refer to? Citations are > > very important to me. Otherwise a testimonial will be challenged and I > > don't have experience in all these areas to say for certain the claims > > are true. What other "unusual" methods of pest control can you throw > > out at me that a conventional producer would deem applicable to their > > fields. > > > > One aside, for David's skeptical views I would recommend you read, > > "Alternative Science: Challenging the Myths of the Scientific > > Establishment" for a better perspective on the contributions of > > paranormal and unconventional science. > > > > I thank you for any contributions and if these topics were discussed in > > the past, an archive will do just fine. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > James Johnson > > Windsor, CA > > shanjam@igc.org > > Hi folks! > > I didn't intend to appear skeptical, just trying to get my mystical buddies > to practice practical philosophy. Weeds, as a good friend of mine once > explained are just "plants out of place". And in the circumstances > mentioned, were really happy critters growing like gangbusters. The soil > and energy sounded perfectly suited to them and my esoteric vision hit the > logical wall. Rex's post suggesting that the soil was still the problem - > the "weeds" were being fed better than the intended crops - made perfect > sense. > > But the SILENCE from the balance of the list has been unexpected especially > from the "deva" end. Thanks for your interest. > > :o) Davidi/whirlderv@ap.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:55:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20799 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:55:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02540; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:54:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01944 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:51:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08749 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:54:51 -0700 Message-ID: <380B352F.D79D97A5@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:56:47 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: FWD: Bargyla Rateaver on the Future References: <000001bf183a$3b3ebb80$61cb6cce@netacc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2009 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Woody Wodraska wrote: > To the List: Some of us know the wonderfully named Bargyla Rateaver from > the SanNet list. She's an 80-something scientist/gardener who's been doing > and preaching organic gardening for far longer than most of us have been > alive. This brief post seems to me to put CLOSED on the recent BDNOW! > threads about "scientific superstition" and on "schism vs. go-slow" in the > BD community. Bargyla's vision, and I guess it's mine since I'm passing > this on to you, is of a [much diminished?] population of humans living > lightly on Mother Earth, and the vast majority of them growing their own > food, without corporate or governmental or organizational input...pretty > much the way it's mostly been for the last 12,000 years until the recent > aberrations. > > Woody > > s > Subject: Re: Shameless promotion/Organic landscape > > I know all you folks don't want to hear it, but it is still the truth--the > time > is soon coming when there will be nothing but organic worldwide, organic > food > grown literally from pole to pole, and everyone will grow his/her own food. > There will no longer be farmers, not even organic farmers. There will be > only > people who raise their own food. SOON. There certainly will not be any kind > of > commerce or ag--just each one raising his own food, and of course it will > be, > organically. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:56:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20809 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:56:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02485; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:53:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01939 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:50:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08743 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:54:38 -0700 Message-ID: <380B3521.7AB2C9A@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:56:34 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: scientific superstition References: <3808DE2C.14C312F6@erie.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2010 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Mark Winschel wrote: > Anita wrote: > > "Perhaps we can say that "scientific superstition" is just > one sympton > of narrow mindedness and ego-centrism. The latter being > appicable to > any paradigm of thought, "scientific" or not. > > But this would indeed seem to be the age characterized by > SCIENCE. I > saw the most interesting exhibit not long ago in one of the > Wash. DC > Smithsonians (Museum of American History, I think) that > looked at the > way things have changed since the advent of modern science > and modern > scientific thinking. I wish I could remember the details > better, but > it is my thoughts and feeling about the exhibit which have > stayed > with me rather than the facts. What I remember thinking was > how > clearly they showed that the scientific sword cuts both ways > -- how > we have some marvelous inventions and lifestyle changes > thanks to > Science, but we also lost many wonderful understandings and > ways of > living in the world. The exhibit made it clear that there > have been > costs along with the benefits, and I thought that was an > unusual > exhibit indeed.... > > Also, my favorite tv show, Biography, recently payed homage > to the > 100 most "influential" people of the millennium, and the top > 20 were > definately dominated by scientists from Copernicus to > Einstein. Made > me wonder what and who will characterize the next > millennium... > > Just some thoughts on a cloudy, rainy, Georgia afternoon, > Anita > > Dear Anita: > > This area of thought is so fascinating to me because we are > truly in my opinion entering a new era that will redefine > the way we relate to science and spirituality. Until > present they have been "largely" seen as separate branches > of human experience. But, the truth in my opinion is that > they are akin to the left and right hemispheres of the > brain. Which could according to some function as one > balanced system capable of accessing the rest of the dormant > human brain potential. > > the "dynamic" relationship > of the male and female aspects of creation. > The dance of form and energy > the lyrics and the melody. > ultimately meant to become > an exalted union of experience that will give birth > to ... > > What do you think? > > Mark From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:56:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20814 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02624; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01986 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:51:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08773 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:55:18 -0700 Message-ID: <380B354A.1C53EBA3@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:57:14 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: scientific superstition References: <000801bf1840$e6f73f00$989dafc7@333> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2011 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Michael Roboz wrote: > Science (as we think of Science) and Religion were united at one time, then > separated. They are, in some areas, getting closer together again. Many > prominent scientists do believe in spirituality of some sort. In the > future, Science and "religion" is again be united in a new way. Perhaps, BD > can be thought of as a forerunner in this process. My guess it that BD will > also change with time as the Earth changes and human beings change. My > impression participating in this list is that BD has already changed > somewhat in the last few years. Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Winschel > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Saturday, October 16, 1999 6:07 PM > Subject: Re: scientific superstition > > >Anita wrote: > > > >"Perhaps we can say that "scientific superstition" is just > >one sympton > >of narrow mindedness and ego-centrism. The latter being > >appicable to > >any paradigm of thought, "scientific" or not. > > > >But this would indeed seem to be the age characterized by > >SCIENCE. I > >saw the most interesting exhibit not long ago in one of the > >Wash. DC > >Smithsonians (Museum of American History, I think) that > >looked at the > >way things have changed since the advent of modern science > >and modern > >scientific thinking. I wish I could remember the details > >better, but > >it is my thoughts and feeling about the exhibit which have > >stayed > >with me rather than the facts. What I remember thinking was > >how > >clearly they showed that the scientific sword cuts both ways > >-- how > >we have some marvelous inventions and lifestyle changes > >thanks to > >Science, but we also lost many wonderful understandings and > >ways of > >living in the world. The exhibit made it clear that there > >have been > >costs along with the benefits, and I thought that was an > >unusual > >exhibit indeed.... > > > >Also, my favorite tv show, Biography, recently payed homage > >to the > >100 most "influential" people of the millennium, and the top > >20 were > >definately dominated by scientists from Copernicus to > >Einstein. Made > >me wonder what and who will characterize the next > >millennium... > > > >Just some thoughts on a cloudy, rainy, Georgia afternoon, > >Anita > > > > > >Dear Anita: > > > >This area of thought is so fascinating to me because we are > >truly in my opinion entering a new era that will redefine > >the way we relate to science and spirituality. Until > >present they have been "largely" seen as separate branches > >of human experience. But, the truth in my opinion is that > >they are akin to the left and right hemispheres of the > >brain. Which could according to some function as one > >balanced system capable of accessing the rest of the dormant > >human brain potential. > > > > > > the "dynamic" relationship > > of the male and female aspects of creation. > > The dance of form and energy > > the lyrics and the melody. > > ultimately meant to become > > an exalted union of experience that will give birth > > to ... > > > >What do you think? > > > >Mark > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:57:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20869 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02872; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:55:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02004 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:51:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08785 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:55:30 -0700 Message-ID: <380B3556.93F8BF5F@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:57:26 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: re biodynamics References: <0.3541c760.253ab122@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2012 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Andyschad@aol.com wrote: > Hi, > Your blame of BD is misguided. It is us and those who went before us who > have to take responsibilty for what we through BD have or have not > accomplished. How can you hold a "system of agriculture" at fault? I believe > it is most important that BD be applied to as great an area as possible; > perhaps if this would have happened by now our present biodevastation might > have been averted. Critisism like this is destructive. Let us study pioneers > like Kolisko or Pfieffer and then face the world with courage! > sincerely > Andy From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:57:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20884 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:57:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02945; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02054 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08801 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:55:41 -0700 Message-ID: <380B3561.53A7E814@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:57:37 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: biodynamics References: <38098100.3344@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2013 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > Andrew wrote, > > Over time, this forum has seen a fairly high degree of criticism of > existing > structures, organizations and practices. As far as I can tell (which is > certainly limited) much, if not most of this criticism is valid and > helpful > to know about. On the other hand it has often been mixed with emotion, > sometimes with all kinds of energies of the less-than-positive kind. > > GA > What is wrong with the expression of emotion. It is an aspect of ones > astral body that has every relevance that a thought might have. It is an > expression of intensity. Whether the point expressed with emotion is > correct is really the issue , not the emotion surely. > > The > notion that the bd world is somehow split or polarized sets up a > good-bad > dichotomy, a win-loose mentality and often leads to comptetative and > self-congratulatory kinds of comments explicitly or implicity. None of > this > kind of one-sided commentary is really accurate, open-minded or helpful. > > I disagree with you entirely. The BD world I live in is split. It is all > about winners and losers & certainly competitativeness. This is an > accurate expression of my experience. Helpful, well if something changes > it is very helpful. And given your shift of atittude Andrew I d say it > is working fine. Now all we need is for the organisations to be dragged > into the light and it will be even more successful. If they need to be > shamed into it, then so be it. The time has passed for hiding > corruptions in their veil of controlled conspiracies. These > organisations of members should be that and not an official tool of > validity for a few who manipulate and control the group for their own > ends. Go somewhere else and do that. An association of members is just > that. It should facilitate communication and community between members > not censor and control its life. Officials are not the centre of focus, > the members are. Lets see some of it, then I will agree with your fine > vision, Andrew. > > Andrew > If > we can identify issues for improvement, even if they are flagrant, we > ought > to work on them in a broad minded fashion - especially if we are > criticizing > the lack thereof in other people and asking for a broader-minded view > from > the exisiting bd organizations. Stands to reason. > > What is not broad minded about speaking ones truth and that of many > other members. How about the 50% membership per annum who have left the > BDANZ for the last 15years. They saw something very real they did not > like. Funnily the committee still have not quiet got what it is. > > > In any case, I want to plead for a more generous view of things and less > > doom and gloom and heavy handed criticisms. Lets all contribute our very > > best, get excited about supporting each others experimentations and not get > > so unbelievably hung up on what we think is good and right for biodynamics - > > as if we individually really had a corner on that. I am the first to admit > > to having made this mistake again and again and want to encourage others to > > join me in letting go of that kind of mentality. It doesn't serve us well. > > > > Merry Michaelmas, > > Andrew > > > > Meanwhile the same old stuff goes no. I am glad to see your opening up > to greater possibilites Andrew, and to the encouragement of that in > others. What can you now do to bring this change about in the Saturnian > authorities you are connected with? and bring a harmonising between the > edge dwelling light bearers and past maintainers? > > Until the change is apparant where it counts, in my life and in my > community, then I support your intentions but believe it dangerous to > believe such a call indicates the change has occurred. Vigilence and > constant pressure where possible may indeed see a lasting development. > We Humans, are so sneaky and persistant in our survival tricks. > > The present Pluto Juno Chiron Antares conjunction square Venus is a > perfect time for addressing abuses of power. More of it and the sooner > the better. > > Sorry to be so 'negative' but whatever it takes. If it is dirty washing > and straight talking then so be it. We have tried nice and gracious and > it does not seemed to have worked in the last 20 years. So straight up > seems all thats left right now. At last we have a forum to air it and > yes I am sure the 'officials' would love it to stop. When there is > change then it can stop, because that is then whats real. Right now I > call as I see it and experience it, everyday. > > Once again, good to see your broadening Andrew. > > Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:58:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20907 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:58:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03007; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:56:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02133 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08819 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:56:00 -0700 Message-ID: <380B3575.D2149AEE@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:57:57 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: COTS: October 17, 1999 - October 23, 1999 References: <7956BF495AB629CB8525680D004AC86A.0000000000000000@webcity> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2014 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Jane Sherry/wcdev/US wrote: > Calendar of the Soul > > [October 17, 1999 - October 23, 1999] > > Twenty-ninth Week > (October 20-26) > > To fan the spark of thinking into flame > By my own strong endeavor, > To read life's inner meaning > Out of the cosmic spirit's fount of strength: > This is my summer heritage, > My autumn solace, and my winter hope. > ___________________________________ > > English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch > ___________________________________ > > Sich selbst des Denkens Leuchten > Im Innern kraftvoll zu entfachen, > Erlebtes sinnvoll deutend > Aus Weltengeistes Krdftequell, > Ist mir nun Sommererbe, > Ist Herbstesruhe und auch Winterhoffnung. > ___________________________________________________________ > > Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: > C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 > > [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML > ___________________________________________________________ > > References > > 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+29 > > -- > To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with > the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:58:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20919 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:58:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03053; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02364 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:53:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08867 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:57:07 -0700 Message-ID: <380B35B4.BBF8014D@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:59:01 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: book on Asian agriculture-similar to bd? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2015 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Guillermo Romero wrote: > > Dear Deana, I had asked a friend in my local Chinese community. Below is his response and suggestion. Cheers, Michael Vancouver, BC, Canada > > > >Please use Amazon.com to search the book title then you will find the > >following book. This book is originally written in English as your friend > >told you. Maybe you should try the library. > >=================================================================== > > Farmers of Forty Centuries : Or Permanent Agriculture in China, Korea and > >Japan > >by F.H. King > > Try an out-of-print order > > > >1-Click ordering unavailable for purchasing out-of-print items. > > > >ASIN: 0878578676 > >Availability: This title is out of print. Although it is no longer available > >from the publisher, we'll query our network of used bookstores for you and > >send an update within one to two weeks. > > In a recent visit to Rodale Institute, I have the impression that they did have that particular book in the store. > > Allan Balliet pointed the book to me, so that he probably remembers best, Do you Allan ??. > > You can reach the Rodale Inst bookstore at ribooks@rodaleinst.org or (800)-832-6285 > > Regards > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:58:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20931 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03099; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:57:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02439 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:53:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08884 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:57:30 -0700 Message-ID: <380B35CD.1528418F@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:59:26 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: cauliflower spirals References: <380A169A.4553@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2016 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > Today I picked a cauliflower with the most beautiful and distinct > spirals coming out of each flowerlet. I know there are very pronounced > spiral cauliflower varieties, however these are not that variety. They > are store bought seedlings. > > We have picked half a dozen lately with non showing this trait. This one > though has it very strongly. Have other folks experienced this > phenomena, as part of their growing BD organising influences. > > Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:59:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20967 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:59:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03179; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:57:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02466 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08891 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:57:40 -0700 Message-ID: <380B35D9.4F0D764B@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:59:37 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: book on Asian agriculture-similar to bd? References: <199910171922.OAA11314@portal.txcyber.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2017 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU flylo@txcyber.com wrote: > When this thread first came up, I did a search in books (out of print) > I think I used: > http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search > I know it came up with two copies from the same bookseller, one > for about $17 and one for almost twice that much. The seller was > Powells books. > Hope this can help. > > Martha, (Texas) > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:59:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20990 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03225; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:57:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02500 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:54:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08904 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:57:51 -0700 Message-ID: <380B35E4.567E4C4E@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:59:48 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: book on Asian agriculture-similar to bd? References: <199910171941.OAA13568@portal.txcyber.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2018 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU flylo@txcyber.com wrote: > Oops, the book search was Best Book Finds > and the pg itself is: > http://www.bestbookbuys.com/cgi- > bin/bbb.cgi?searchparam=farmers+of+forty+centuries&searchtype= > Title > > Martha, (Texas) > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:59:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20998 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:59:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03277; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:57:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02535 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:54:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08914 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:58:00 -0700 Message-ID: <380B35EC.991CB3F1@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:59:57 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics References: <006d01bf18ed$317796e0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2019 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU agdoc wrote: > correct is really the issue, not the emotion surely.> (Glenn) > > Hmmm..dont think so Glenn. How we do things is probably equally important as > to what. With regards to biodynamics that is surely not lost on you. I dont > think that it is any different in the rest of our lives. > > Besides, I wasnt talking about simply but less-than-wonderful-kind>. Anyway, the point is simply that yes, there is a > time to stand up and say no, to change things, to right wrongs, etc. > Sometimes that can require harsh words and even revolutionary actions. If > the situation there is so terrible and you cant change things by being > as you say, then start your own bd group or association, your own > farm, school, consulting company, whatever, if thats whats needed or write > your perspective in books, speak publically, etc. Take people to court if > things are happening that are unlawful. Take the message to the people > (clients, customers, target audiences, members, whatever) if whats important > isnt being said, heard, shared. And I guess, if people into the > light of day is what is needed, so be it. There is a time for every season. > > On the whole, though, most good things dont come from complaint, criticism, > angry words, aggrevated assault (of the verbal kind) and finger-pointing. > Most good things are not built with anger. Anger is a tearing down process > and sometimes is necessary. Building up is another matter. As the good book > says, we shall know you by your fruit. Doing good takes so much more (and > different energy) that fighting what isnt working. Trying to fix what is > broken is certainly one path, creating things that work is another. I was > merely suggesting that the former is not as significant and the latter. > > Besides, after a while the anger thing gets boring. > > All the best, > Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 10:59:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21007 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03342; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02593 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:54:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08926 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:58:11 -0700 Message-ID: <380B35F7.1270576C@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:00:08 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: treating sick animals References: <006d01bf18ed$317796e0$408ebdc6@staff.santarosa.edu> <19991017.193527.17302.0.LaQuerencia@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2020 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Deborah M Byron wrote: > Dear BD Friends, > > I'd like to learn how to treat minor medical problems more > effectively for my cats. When one of the kittens got stung by a wasp > this summer, I was thrilled to see how well homeopathy worked (Apis and > Ledum @ 30x). Now the other one has had a urinary problem and the > resulting vet bill almost killed *me*. Can anyone on this list suggest > a good book or web site on natural medicine for cats? > > Thanks, > Deborah Byron > Laquerencia@juno.com > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 11:00:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21037 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:00:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03414; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02620 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:54:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08937 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:58:20 -0700 Message-ID: <380B3601.31A1FCE5@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:00:17 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BDA Conference at Spring Valley References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2021 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Allan Balliett wrote: > Did anyone on the list attend this conference last weekend? > > If so, how was it? > > What did Mr. Klett have to say? > > Thanks > > -Allan Balliett > igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 11:00:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21053 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:00:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03460; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:58:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02658 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:54:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08945 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:58:31 -0700 Message-ID: <380B360B.3A08E9FE@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:00:27 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: biodynamics References: <000a01bf1904$86ccde40$939dafc7@333> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2022 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Michael Roboz wrote: > Received mine a few days ago. > Michael > N. Vancouver, BC, Canada. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Allan Balliett > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 5:16 PM > Subject: Re: biodynamics > > >Which reminds me: has anyone received the Sept/Oct issue of the US BDA > >journal "BIODYNAMICS"? I have yet to receive mine. > > > >Thanks, > > > >-Allan Balliett > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 11:01:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21070 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:01:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03521; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:59:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02679 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:54:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08962 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:58:47 -0700 Message-ID: <380B361A.63691A19@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:00:43 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Alternative Pest Control References: <00bc01bf1914$bf06d6c0$4c431ccb@cherylke> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2023 VPLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Cheryl Kemp wrote: > Dear James, > > I thought everyone else would also rush in with answers. We have had many > discussions on this list, so maybe if you go to the archives and look up > pest control, you will have plenty of material. We have discussed peppering > and various ways of coping with slugs and snails, with heliothis, (Hugh > Lovell has had some great pieces there) I have put on a whole article on > peppering, and Michael Roboz has had some great insights into insects etc. > Maria Thuns book, "and and the Constellations" has a great section about > peppering too. (Peppering is where the skin of an animal or the seeds of the > weed, or the insect is burnt at a specific time, and the ashes ground up and > spread out onto the area that needs to repel them. The "Pepper" an also be > potentised to a higher potency so that the use of the peppers can go > further ) > > Just a additional note on peppering, (and yes we are keeping records > Malcolm,) one of our farmers has overcome a great problem of fruit bats > around his orchard. He peppered a fruit bat and potentised to 6x, sprayed > around the edge of the orchard, about 1/2 acre, and now the fruit bats > congregate around the edges with the bower birds that he also peppered (6x) > making a great noise of frustration AND DO NOT GO IN! The neighbours have > lost so much fruit and are so impressed that they asked them to spray their > place too. The interesting aspect is, that on testing for the potency they > had to go to 60x !! I said to the BD Farmers, (before I knew the new > potency,) that it probably wouldn't work, as the neighbours had no BD preps > on the ground, and they both looked at each other and said, that must be > why we had to go so much higher for them!!. I have had other (sensitive )BD > people say that the BD preps are needed to "anchor " the energies into the > ground. That without the BD preps, the earth is not sensitive enough to > pick up on the vibrations of the peppers or even cosmic energies, I feel. > Interesting that the 60x was required for the unprepped earth. ( I would say > we were getting past the etheric into the astral realm here?) > Back to the peppering of the fruit bats and bower birds, they have sprayed > two nights and plan the third in succession, all in Moon in Sagittarius, > fruit sign. And after the first spraying the neighbours had not attack > either and saw many bats and birds around the edges making a great noise!. > > So James, it is a huge subject, which requires a lot of understanding and is > still being developed. I would suggest that you could says that there are > ways to work, apart from killing and spraying with poisons, and that a lot > of empirical work is being done with it. > In pasture and vegetable growing, we are getting great results with > application of all the preparations, especially Prep.501, as it is able to > raise the sugar levels in the sap and this repels insect attack - so healthy > soil creates healthy plants and animals. > Best wishes with your talk, > Cheryl Kemp > Education & News Leaf Editor > Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. > of Australia Inc. > P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) > 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) > Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Isaacs > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Saturday, 16 October 1999 11:46 pm > Subject: Re: Alternative Pest Control > > > > > > >Shannan and James Johnson wrote: > > > >> Dear BDers, > >> > >> I have a question concerning pest control. I have less than 2 weeks to > >> put together a talk that includes alternatives to pesticides for our > >> county PCA's. I am honored that the Ag. Commissioner's office asked for > >> my input as I have had discussions over topics considered controversial > >> in our office (UC Coop Ext) that would be of interest to members on this > >> list. > >> > >> I want to approach the talk from a perspective of soil health equals > >> plant health equals tolerant plants but I need a bit more on what to do > >> once the system is out of balance. Are there good perennial weed > >> controls through BD or organic practices? Does anyone know how to get a > >> hold of Phil Calahan or Tom Dykstra so I can ask them about Paramagnetic > >> influences on pests? Does the cosmic (Heironymus) pipe have any > >> documentation or University research that I can refer to? Citations are > >> very important to me. Otherwise a testimonial will be challenged and I > >> don't have experience in all these areas to say for certain the claims > >> are true. What other "unusual" methods of pest control can you throw > >> out at me that a conventional producer would deem applicable to their > >> fields. > >> > >> One aside, for David's skeptical views I would recommend you read, > >> "Alternative Science: Challenging the Myths of the Scientific > >> Establishment" for a better perspective on the contributions of > >> paranormal and unconventional science. > >> > >> I thank you for any contributions and if these topics were discussed in > >> the past, an archive will do just fine. > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> > >> James Johnson > >> Windsor, CA > >> shanjam@igc.org > > > >Hi folks! > > > >I didn't intend to appear skeptical, just trying to get my mystical buddies > >to practice practical philosophy. Weeds, as a good friend of mine once > >explained are just "plants out of place". And in the circumstances > >mentioned, were really happy critters growing like gangbusters. The soil > >and energy sounded perfectly suited to them and my esoteric vision hit the > >logical wall. Rex's post suggesting that the soil was still the problem - > >the "weeds" were being fed better than the intended crops - made perfect > >sense. > > > >But the SILENCE from the balance of the list has been unexpected especially > >from the "deva" end. Thanks for your interest. > > > >:o) Davidi/whirlderv@ap.net > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 11:01:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21078 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03641; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:59:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02729 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:55:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA08984 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:59:10 -0700 Message-ID: <380B3632.2C739110@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:01:06 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: biodynamics References: <01bf190b$bbf51900$4c1bd1cd@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2024 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOUPLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU manfred palmer wrote: > Me 2, few days ago... > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Roboz > > >Received mine a few days ago. > >Michael > >N. Vancouver, BC, Canada. > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Allan Balliett > >To: bdnow@envirolink.org > >Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 5:16 PM > >Subject: Re: biodynamics > > > > > >>Which reminds me: has anyone received the Sept/Oct issue of the US BDA > >>journal "BIODYNAMICS"? I have yet to receive mine. > >> > >>Thanks, > >> > >>-Allan Balliett > >> > >> > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 11:05:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21122 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:05:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04111; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:03:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02793 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:55:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA09010 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:59:27 -0700 Message-ID: <380B3643.BFABFD3E@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:01:23 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics References: <006d01bf18ed$317796e0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> <380A9E10.4918@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2025 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > agdoc wrote: > > > > > correct is really the issue, not the emotion surely.> (Glenn) > > > > Hmmm..dont think so Glenn. How we do things is probably equally important as > > to what. With regards to biodynamics that is surely not lost on you. I dont > > think that it is any different in the rest of our lives. > > > > Besides, I wasnt talking about simply but > less-than-wonderful-kind>. Anyway, the point is simply that yes, there is a > > time to stand up and say no, to change things, to right wrongs, etc. > > Sometimes that can require harsh words and even revolutionary actions. If > > the situation there is so terrible and you cant change things by being > > as you say, then start your own bd group or association, your own > > farm, school, consulting company, whatever, if thats whats needed or write > > your perspective in books, speak publically, etc. Take people to court if > > things are happening that are unlawful. Take the message to the people > > (clients, customers, target audiences, members, whatever) if whats important > > isnt being said, heard, shared. And I guess, if people into the > > light of day is what is needed, so be it. There is a time for every season. > > > > Is not this just creating the split we/you are saying is not a good > thing for the BD movement. I believe everyone I know who has a beef is > off doing their own thing. Is this the point though. > > In this case, our offical Associations become an ass, of no credibility > and a hinderance to everyone who is working towards the good. They are > the Saturn, they are the authority to all who need them. Yet they cause > more harm than good. Is it not the responsibility of its members to > bring about and to constantly ensure, its healthy life. This is not > another commercial company, this is an association of members, using the > voice of the members as its credibility. One problem we have is our BDAs > have become commercial activites with wages to pay and preps to sell and > trademarks to uphold. Peoples survival becomes threatened and the > Association must be controlled by the few it supports, for their own > survival. At this point our association becomes our competition. It > looses its purpose as a social cultural organism and harmonious support > of all sectors of the the community disappears. Members working in the > same field but not employed by the association become competitiors and > the enemy. This is sick and sad and in need of discussing. Out loud. It > makes an ass of Anthroposophy and Rudolf Steiner and is not helpful at > all. > > > On the whole, though, most good things dont come from complaint, criticism, > > angry words, aggrevated assault (of the verbal kind) and finger-pointing. > > Most good things are not built with anger. Anger is a tearing down process > > and sometimes is necessary. Building up is another matter. As the good book > > says, we shall know you by your fruit. Doing good takes so much more (and > > different energy) that fighting what isnt working. Trying to fix what is > > broken is certainly one path, creating things that work is another. I was > > merely suggesting that the former is not as significant and the latter. > > > > Besides, after a while the anger thing gets boring. > > > > All the best, > > Andrew > > So does the abuse of power and competition amoungst comrades. Innovative > edges are hard enough without insecure beaurocrats getting in the way of > the true community providing the necessary warmth for such innovation to > come into full life. > > Why would you imagine, Andrew would 20 years of practical commercialised > development upon Koliskos "Agriculture of Tomorrow" have received a > total of five minutes presentation time to the NZ BD community. Even > given that after that 5 minutes the AGM members present declared the > work an appropriate part of BD and to be supported by the Association. > Why would offers of experiments between 500 and potentised preps come to > nothing due to BDANZ inaction. > > What is going on here Andrew, is this reasonable, ethical, morally just > and worthy of being 'nice' about???? > > Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 11:05:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21145 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:05:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04245; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:04:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02850 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:55:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA09034 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:59:42 -0700 Message-ID: <380B3652.7BA30151@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:01:39 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: book on Asian agriculture-similar to bd? References: <002701bf18a9$bbed6460$8c9dafc7@333> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2026 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Allan Balliett wrote: > >> Dear Deana, I had asked a friend in my local Chinese community. > >>Below is his response and suggestion. Cheers, Michael Vancouver, BC, > >>Canada > >> > >>Please use Amazon.com to search the book title then you will find the > >>following book. This book is originally written in English as your friend > >>told you. Maybe you should try the library. > >>=================================================================== > >> Farmers of Forty Centuries : Or Permanent Agriculture in China, Korea > >>and > >>Japan > >>by F.H. King > >> Try an out-of-print order > >> > >>1-Click ordering unavailable for purchasing out-of-print items. > >> > >>ASIN: 0878578676 > >>Availability: This title is out of print. Although it is no longer available > >>from the publisher, we'll query our network of used bookstores for you and > >>send an update within one to two weeks. > > > > > > > > > >In a recent visit to Rodale Institute, I have the impression that they did > >have that particular book in the store. > > > >Allan Balliet pointed the book to me, so that he probably remembers best, > >Do you Allan ??. > > > >You can reach the Rodale Inst bookstore at ribooks@rodaleinst.org or > >(800)-832-6285 > > > >Regards > > > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > > There was a current paperback edition available at Rodale and I'm sure at > other walk-in stores. (It's apparently an edition by a press that's not > interested in Amaon's annoying 'no stock' practices.) I do not think it was > a RODALE book. > > This is a red herring in this discussion, however. The book mentioned was > not v. likely to be this book, a book which many people on this list are v. > familiar with and a book which, to my knowledge, was never a multi-volume > printing. > > I hope that everyone keeps looking!! :-) > > Thanks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 11:05:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21163 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:05:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04291; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:04:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02890 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:56:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id HAA09045 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:59:52 -0700 Message-ID: <380B365C.A66AF76A@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:01:49 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: biodynamics References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2027 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Allan Balliett wrote: > For Andrew, Merry, Glen with one "n", > > There is a story from old Japan about a samurai and a prisoner that may > be helpful in your discussions and thoughts. The story is gory and > coarse, so please donmt read it if you are at all sensitive. > > After a battle, a samurai was standing guard over a group of prisoners > who whose arms were bound to their sides and hands tied at their backs. > The samurai couldn't help notice, that one of the prisoners had fixed an > intense glare on him. He asked the prisoner why the prisoner was > staring at him in this manner. Without breaking his stare, the prisoner > spat and said that after the samurai executed him, he would be coming > back to take revenge on the samurai. > > The samurai turned and laughed, which only intensified the prisonerms > rage. Then he faced the prisoner and told the prisoner that he had no > such powers. The prisoner scoffed at this remark and became even more > agitated. Then the samurai said, lIf you have such powers, let me see > you bite off a piece of the rock next to you.n > > The prisoner lunged over onto his side and with every ounce of energy he > had began biting, furiously, attacking the rock. The samuraims sword > left its scabbard, cut off the prisonerms head and returned to the > scabbard in one continuous motion. The prisonerms head continued biting > passionately at the rock, which by now was in several pieces. > > Any relevance for us? > > Glenn with two "n"'s From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 11:06:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21189 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:06:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04348; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:04:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02927 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:56:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id IAA09052 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:00:01 -0700 Message-ID: <380B3666.22945F69@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:01:58 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: biodynamics References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2028 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Allan Balliett wrote: > Which reminds me: has anyone received the Sept/Oct issue of the US BDA > journal "BIODYNAMICS"? I have yet to receive mine. > > Thanks, > > -Allan Balliett From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 11:06:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21202 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04434; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:04:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02957 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:56:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id IAA09066 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:00:12 -0700 Message-ID: <380B3670.8647676A@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:02:08 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: FWD: Bargyla Rateaver on the Future References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2029 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU "Anita Graf (Staff)" wrote: > Hi Woody, > > Having had much personal corrospondence with Bargyla, I'm pretty sure > that what she is refering to here is her vision of the post > apocolyptic planet Earth. She has been trying (without much success, > I admit) to show me how the Bible proves that the Second Coming is > eminent, and that all good Christians will rise from the dead (after > all the baddies are exterminated or something) and live like Adam and > Eve in the literal original Garden of Eden (which is on this physical > planet) under the benign dictatorship of Jesus and his angel > bureaucrats. Or something like that. I really like Bargyla too, but > on these topics I've found that our views are pretty different and > that we have very little room for discussion. Anyway, the reason she > says, "I know you folks don't want to hear it," is because she knows > people don't like to be preached (as in bible-thumped) at. > Nevertheless, this is urgent information that needs to be spread in > her opinion. Bargyla has no use for "pagan myths" like > reincarnation, an immortal soul, or probably most of the stuff in > Anthroposophy. > > But this isn't meant to demean any other interpretation you may have > given to her words. > > I think it's interesting how diverse are the paths which lead many to > organic agriculture... Anita > > > To the List: Some of us know the wonderfully named Bargyla Rateaver from > > the SanNet list. She's an 80-something scientist/gardener who's been doing > > and preaching organic gardening for far longer than most of us have been > > alive. This brief post seems to me to put CLOSED on the recent BDNOW! > > threads about "scientific superstition" and on "schism vs. go-slow" in the > > BD community. Bargyla's vision, and I guess it's mine since I'm passing > > this on to you, is of a [much diminished?] population of humans living > > lightly on Mother Earth, and the vast majority of them growing their own > > food, without corporate or governmental or organizational input...pretty > > much the way it's mostly been for the last 12,000 years until the recent > > aberrations. > > > > Woody > > > > s > > Subject: Re: Shameless promotion/Organic landscape > > > > I know all you folks don't want to hear it, but it is still the truth--the > > time > > is soon coming when there will be nothing but organic worldwide, organic > > food > > grown literally from pole to pole, and everyone will grow his/her own food. > > There will no longer be farmers, not even organic farmers. There will be > > only > > people who raise their own food. SOON. There certainly will not be any kind > > of > > commerce or ag--just each one raising his own food, and of course it will > > be, > > organically. > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 11:07:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21239 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:07:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04520; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.netmagic.net (netmagic.net [206.14.125.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03001 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:56:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netmagic.net (ppp4-31.sj.netmagic.net [209.24.168.31]) by mail.netmagic.net (8.9.3/NetMagic) with ESMTP id IAA09075 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:00:22 -0700 Message-ID: <380B367B.CADCFDB5@netmagic.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:02:19 -0700 From: David-James Curtis Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Pacific Heights Health Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BDA Conference at Spring Valley References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2030 PLEASE TAKE THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS OFF ALL YOUR LISTINGS IMMEDIATELY . THANK YOU Bruce Bumbarger wrote: > Allan and others interested: > I didn't attend the conference, but from brief conversations with a few who > did it sounds like it was a good weekend. One described it as the best he'd > been to in years, I think in large part due to a sense of community and > renewal of purpose that he felt was shared by many of those who were there. > Sounds like much the same feeling that Andrew described in his posting > about the California conference in September. > > Manfred Klett didn't make it to either conference; he was apparently ill, > perhaps hospitalized (not sure of the details) and couldn't make the trip. > It's my understanding that things went well despite this. I have an article > on some aspects of the California conference that will be going into the > Nov/Dec issue of BIODYNAMICS. I also have several tapes of talks from the > Spring Valley sessions which are being transcribed; some should be > appearing as articles in upcoming issues of the journal and perhaps posted > on the BDA website. I can let you know once I get a better idea of what's > there. > > Bruce > > >Did anyone on the list attend this conference last weekend? > > > >If so, how was it? > > > > > >What did Mr. Klett have to say? > > > >Thanks > > > >-Allan Balliett > >igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 11:20:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21456 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:20:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06368; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:18:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz (pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06221 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:17:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.81.248]) by pop2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991018152701.JRHT1542187.pop2-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 04:27:01 +1300 Message-ID: <380B3ADC.6B51@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 04:21:01 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: RE Biodynamics: towards peace, dignity & healing References: <001d01bf1977$b86fcac0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2031 Andrew Good to hear of your devloping the Kolisko institute. I agree with the rest of your post. One can only get on with it gracefully. Though as you may have noticed I see nothing wrong with Gossiping loudly. I look forward to seeing your site and staying i9n touch with what you are doing. Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 11:35:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21722 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:35:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08298; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:33:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07681 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.203.210]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:31:12 +0100 Message-ID: <004d01bf197d$efa77a00$d2cb2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: <000b01bf173b$0ff09e80$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> <380B348A.8A67672A@netmagic.net> Subject: Re: re biodynamics, etc ... Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:30:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2032 Please, can someone tell me what this man Curtis is shouting about ? I don't believe that I need advice about what I may or may not read on the BDNow! list; there are several "delete" buttons I can click on when I feel the need and I use them regularly, without feeling it necessary to broadcast my opinions. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 11:35:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21730 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08332; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07691 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:30:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.203.210]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:31:10 +0100 Message-ID: <004c01bf197d$eecd46a0$d2cb2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: Re: scientific superstition Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:22:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2033 Anita - just a sideline on misuses of science by politicians: a few weeks ago, Dr Cunningham (can't remember his first name right now) who had been Agriculture Minister and was then "Cabinet Enforcer" with special responsibility for pushing forward GM crops to a suspicious British public was being questioned on BBC radio news about the environmental impact of the crops currently being "field tested". He said reassuring that, of course, these were "controlled tests". The obvious inference was that everything is under control. Anyone with knowledge or experience of scientific experimentation (and that includes Dr Cunningham) is aware that a controlled test is one in which the effects of some new factor are being compared with a "control" in which everything but the factor under test remains the same, so that any changes must be the result of the new factor; the use of the word "control", in this context, says nothing at all about the risks involved in such an experiment. Has this politician invented a new "scientifix superstition" here ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 11:39:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21778 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08760; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:37:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08464 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:35:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 63.27.230.86 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:36:07 -0700 Message-ID: <005501bf197f$54fbeac0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: RE Biodynamics: towards peace, dignity & healing Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:42:05 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2034 Glenn, We are looking forward to being in touch with you too and linking with your work. Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 15:08:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25934 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:08:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03197; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:06:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17250 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 12:35:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.149.164.48 (mx3-34.ilhawaii.net [204.149.164.48]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA11123; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:36:10 -0500 Message-ID: <380B500F.1E7E@smallfarms.com> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 06:51:28 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: re biodynamics References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2035 Dear Kimberlie, I went back to the Registration page at the smallfarms.com site and looked at the condition that states that farmers must retain ownership of their products throughout processing. For the life of me, I can't recall why I put it in there in that way... We want preserve the idea that the products at smallfarms.com came from legitimate small farmers and ranchers, and not from processors or packagers. This seems to be covered by the condition that all the products listed must originate at your farm. Looks like condition you questioned needs to be amended or removed...Will you help me think this through? I need to leave for a few days and will be back to you. Greetings to Ralph. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 15:08:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25949 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03322; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:07:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18272 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 12:47:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.99] (pm3shep2-163-95.intrepid.net [209.190.163.95]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA11975 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 12:48:49 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 00:53:59 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: BDA Conference at Spring Valley Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2036 Bruce said: >I also have several tapes of talks from the >Spring Valley sessions which are being transcribed; some should be >appearing as articles in upcoming issues of the journal and perhaps posted >on the BDA website. I can let you know once I get a better idea of what's >there. Dear Bruce - We are always opened to you posting articles here, especially in this spirit of sharing rather than excluding. Heaven knows enough BD Now! stuff shows up in association journals. It w.b. nice to see an editor take the initiative and demonstrate an intention to share with EVERYONE who is interested in biodynamics. Might be good for 'subscriptions,' also! :-) -Allan Balliett moderator BD Now! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 15:08:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25966 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03411; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:07:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18504 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 12:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.99] (pm3shep2-163-95.intrepid.net [209.190.163.95]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12494 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 12:51:30 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 00:58:42 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: How to subscribe from BD Now! Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2037 It's really quite easy: just send an email msg to listproc@envirolink.org in the body of your message say unsubscribe bdnow That really should take care of it. If not, please ask for help off-line. And please, even if you are a self-centered, techno-incompetent bore, please don't expose yourself through the list! Thanks -Allan Balliett moderator BD Now! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 15:09:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25978 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:09:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03520; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA20605 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:13:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp6.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.106]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA14285 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 12:09:55 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00c601bf198b$f9f9a7e0$6a4b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: Subject: Re: FWD: Bargyla Rateaver on the Future Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 12:12:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2038 Anita, I find this post offensive & a breach of netiquette. The closing 'clean-up' does not negate the bulk of your post. Presuming to interpret (and ridicule) an organic pioneer & elder's message...someone who isn't even a member of this forum, so they cannot defend or clarify. Many BDNowers are also Sanetters & remember the exchange that took place the last time you attacked Bargyla. In case you forgot, read this, perhaps it will jog your memory: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail/html-home/36-html/0502.html Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: Anita Graf (Staff) To: Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 4:56 AM Subject: Re: FWD: Bargyla Rateaver on the Future > Hi Woody, > > Having had much personal corrospondence with Bargyla, I'm pretty sure > that what she is refering to here is her vision of the post > apocolyptic planet Earth. She has been trying (without much success, > I admit) to show me how the Bible proves that the Second Coming is > eminent, and that all good Christians will rise from the dead (after > all the baddies are exterminated or something) and live like Adam and > Eve in the literal original Garden of Eden (which is on this physical > planet) under the benign dictatorship of Jesus and his angel > bureaucrats. Or something like that. I really like Bargyla too, but > on these topics I've found that our views are pretty different and > that we have very little room for discussion. Anyway, the reason she > says, "I know you folks don't want to hear it," is because she knows > people don't like to be preached (as in bible-thumped) at. > Nevertheless, this is urgent information that needs to be spread in > her opinion. Bargyla has no use for "pagan myths" like > reincarnation, an immortal soul, or probably most of the stuff in > Anthroposophy. > > But this isn't meant to demean any other interpretation you may have > given to her words. > > I think it's interesting how diverse are the paths which lead many to > organic agriculture... Anita > > > To the List: Some of us know the wonderfully named Bargyla Rateaver from > > the SanNet list. She's an 80-something scientist/gardener who's been doing > > and preaching organic gardening for far longer than most of us have been > > alive. This brief post seems to me to put CLOSED on the recent BDNOW! > > threads about "scientific superstition" and on "schism vs. go-slow" in the > > BD community. Bargyla's vision, and I guess it's mine since I'm passing > > this on to you, is of a [much diminished?] population of humans living > > lightly on Mother Earth, and the vast majority of them growing their own > > food, without corporate or governmental or organizational input...pretty > > much the way it's mostly been for the last 12,000 years until the recent > > aberrations. > > > > Woody > > > > s > > Subject: Re: Shameless promotion/Organic landscape > > > > I know all you folks don't want to hear it, but it is still the truth--the > > time > > is soon coming when there will be nothing but organic worldwide, organic > > food > > grown literally from pole to pole, and everyone will grow his/her own food. > > There will no longer be farmers, not even organic farmers. There will be > > only > > people who raise their own food. SOON. There certainly will not be any kind > > of > > commerce or ag--just each one raising his own food, and of course it will > > be, > > organically. > > > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 15:09:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25987 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:09:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03607; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:08:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23342 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:41:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from laquerencia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EN8UX4EM; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:41:17 EDT To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 12:42:22 -0500 Subject: OFF: Animal vaccinations Message-ID: <19991018.124223.16614.4.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: <001d01bf1977$b86fcac0$408ebdc6@staff.santarosa.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,9-12 From: Deborah M Byron Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2039 Dear BDers, Trying to figure out naturopathic cat care has made me also wonder what those of you raising BD livestock do about vaccinations. Those of us using Anthroposophical medicine usually try to avoid them for ourselves and our children as much as we can, but I wonder about the best approach for our animals. According to my understanding, vaccinations can compromise the immune system in the long run (and in people there are also consequences that can extend across lifetimes). Do BD farmers tend to avoid vaccinating their livestock as a rule? What about rabies? Warm regards, Deborah ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 15:09:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25996 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:09:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03693; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:08:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from commando.mobilixnet.dk ([195.78.82.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25482 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:04:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from carol (dialin-106-041.mobilixnet.dk [212.97.199.41]) by commando.mobilixnet.dk (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA88784 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 20:05:31 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991018200917.008ffe80@mail.mobilixnet.dk> X-Sender: mob34587@mail.mobilixnet.dk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 20:09:17 +0200 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Carol Jensen Subject: Re: RE Biodynamics: towards peace, dignity & healing In-Reply-To: <380B3ADC.6B51@xtra.co.nz> References: <001d01bf1977$b86fcac0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2040 At 04:21 19-10-1999 +1300, you wrote: >Andrew > >Good to hear of your devloping the Kolisko institute. > >I agree with the rest of your post. One can only get on with it >gracefully. Though as you may have noticed I see nothing wrong with >Gossiping loudly. > >I look forward to seeing your site and staying i9n touch with what you >are doing. > >Glen A > Andrew, I would just like to say that I've had some of Kolisko's pamphlets for years, bought in Denmark. She is not completely unknown over here. Carol ----------------------------------- Webmasters! You need help! Read my article "Grammar for Webmasters" at ------------------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 15:38:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26514 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA07787; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07564 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip040.computer.net [140.186.252.40]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA15457 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:36:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:38:23 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: FWD: Bargyla Rateaver on the Future Message-ID: <0F8B6F9634FBC5628525680E006B8FF9.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2041 Thanks for the memory jog, Julie; I for one would vote for Misha anyday! For any office! I wanted to ask Woody, who IS on this list, what he thinks would become of the cities of the world in this vision that he shares with Dr. Rateaver? Do you envision smaller cities, rebuilt cities, cities in ruins, cities with food production throughout and among big buildings? Just curious. Jane, who has narrowly escaped living in the city, but isn't very far away! "Julie" on 10/18/99 01:12:35 PM Please respond to bdnow@envirolink.org To: bdnow@envirolink.org cc: Subject: Re: FWD: Bargyla Rateaver on the Future Anita, I find this post offensive & a breach of netiquette. The closing 'clean-up' does not negate the bulk of your post. Presuming to interpret (and ridicule) an organic pioneer & elder's message...someone who isn't even a member of this forum, so they cannot defend or clarify. Many BDNowers are also Sanetters & remember the exchange that took place the last time you attacked Bargyla. In case you forgot, read this, perhaps it will jog your memory: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail/html-home/36-html/0502.html Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: Anita Graf (Staff) To: Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 4:56 AM Subject: Re: FWD: Bargyla Rateaver on the Future > Hi Woody, > > Having had much personal corrospondence with Bargyla, I'm pretty sure > that what she is refering to here is her vision of the post > apocolyptic planet Earth. She has been trying (without much success, > I admit) to show me how the Bible proves that the Second Coming is > eminent, and that all good Christians will rise from the dead (after > all the baddies are exterminated or something) and live like Adam and > Eve in the literal original Garden of Eden (which is on this physical > planet) under the benign dictatorship of Jesus and his angel > bureaucrats. Or something like that. I really like Bargyla too, but > on these topics I've found that our views are pretty different and > that we have very little room for discussion. Anyway, the reason she > says, "I know you folks don't want to hear it," is because she knows > people don't like to be preached (as in bible-thumped) at. > Nevertheless, this is urgent information that needs to be spread in > her opinion. Bargyla has no use for "pagan myths" like > reincarnation, an immortal soul, or probably most of the stuff in > Anthroposophy. > > But this isn't meant to demean any other interpretation you may have > given to her words. > > I think it's interesting how diverse are the paths which lead many to > organic agriculture... Anita > > > To the List: Some of us know the wonderfully named Bargyla Rateaver from > > the SanNet list. She's an 80-something scientist/gardener who's been doing > > and preaching organic gardening for far longer than most of us have been > > alive. This brief post seems to me to put CLOSED on the recent BDNOW! > > threads about "scientific superstition" and on "schism vs. go-slow" in the > > BD community. Bargyla's vision, and I guess it's mine since I'm passing > > this on to you, is of a [much diminished?] population of humans living > > lightly on Mother Earth, and the vast majority of them growing their own > > food, without corporate or governmental or organizational input...pretty > > much the way it's mostly been for the last 12,000 years until the recent > > aberrations. > > > > Woody > > > > s > > Subject: Re: Shameless promotion/Organic landscape > > > > I know all you folks don't want to hear it, but it is still the truth--the > > time > > is soon coming when there will be nothing but organic worldwide, organic > > food > > grown literally from pole to pole, and everyone will grow his/her own food. > > There will no longer be farmers, not even organic farmers. There will be > > only > > people who raise their own food. SOON. There certainly will not be any kind > > of > > commerce or ag--just each one raising his own food, and of course it will > > be, > > organically. > > > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 18 17:32:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00035 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:32:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA21550; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acc.haverford.edu (acc.haverford.edu [165.82.1.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21217 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [165.82.19.116] (s116.magill.haverford.edu [165.82.19.116]) by acc.haverford.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA04295 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:21:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:24:42 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Bruce Bumbarger Subject: Re: BDA Conference at Spring Valley Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2042 Allan and others who may be interested: I'm certainly a sharing guy; I figured my answering the initial query with what I knew kind of established that. You'll understand though that not having heard the tapes or seen transcripts that it's a little premature to say for sure in what form the talks will appear in readable form. At the very least the speakers will need to have the chance to look over the transcripts and give the word on whether or not, and in what form they'd like them to appear. I think this is standard editorial practice; certainly simple good manners. As I said earlier, I'll let you know once I have the specifics. Bruce >Dear Bruce - > >We are always opened to you posting articles here, especially in this >spirit of sharing rather than excluding. Heaven knows enough BD Now! stuff >shows up in association journals. It w.b. nice to see an editor take the >initiative and demonstrate an intention to share with EVERYONE who is >interested in biodynamics. > >Might be good for 'subscriptions,' also! :-) > >-Allan Balliett >moderator >BD Now! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 19 07:17:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA04443 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA21578; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:13:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lexington.ioa.net (root@lexington.ioa.net [208.131.128.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21438 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:10:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ioa.com (ppp498.arden.dialup.ioa.com [208.133.47.189]) by lexington.ioa.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA32163 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:11:30 -0400 Message-ID: <380C53E0.A7C14339@ioa.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 06:20:01 -0500 From: Chris Sawyer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: FWD: Bargyla Rateaver on the Future References: <00c601bf198b$f9f9a7e0$6a4b2e9c@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2043 Julie wrote: > Anita, > > I find this post offensive & a breach of netiquette.Julie > Clearly when you point the finger you have three pointing back at yourownself....this post is annoying and off topic and an attack, two wrongs never ever made something right, you should throw your computer from a train if you can't do better... Chris From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 19 08:39:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05331 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:39:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25745; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA25705 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.013B31ED@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 8:37:23 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 19 Oct 99 08:37:24 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 19 Oct 99 08:37:22 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:37:16 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: David James Curtis Priority: normal In-reply-to: <004d01bf197d$efa77a00$d2cb2cc3@m00q6c00> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2044 > Please, can someone tell me what this man Curtis is shouting about ? I > don't believe that I need advice about what I may or may not read on the > BDNow! list; there are several "delete" buttons I can click on when I feel > the need and I use them regularly, without feeling it necessary to broadcast > my opinions. Tony N-S. > He's obviously trapped in a listserv he doesn't know how to get out of! He is apparently one of those people who is neither familiar with how listserves work nor did he save the instructions sent to him when he signed up. Unfortunately, he doesn't have the good manners and good sense just to ask politely how to unsubscribe. His attempt to get off the list is so annoying that it has been my inclination not to bother to look up the instructions myself and send them to him. I suppose someone ought to do it at some point... Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 19 08:46:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05390 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:46:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26303; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:44:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26199 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:42:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.50] (pm3shep1-163-50.intrepid.net [209.190.163.50]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA01475 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:43:56 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00c001bf115f$62093880$59431ccb@cherylke> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:51:08 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: [women-enviro] Re: Environmental impacts on women Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2045 >Dear Christine, >Peter Proctor and Rachel Pomeroy are in India and Sri Lanka at present >teaching and training teachers. Peter can be contacted on email >pproctor@inhb.co.nz or pproctor8@hotmail.com He will be there until >February and may be able to help your friends. >Cheryl Kemp. Dear Cheryl - Indian members of my CSA attended the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening conference and were alarmed to hear about our use of animal parts in the making of the preps. (They were even more alarmed to see an amendment table selling DRIED BLOOD, but that was irrelevant because we don't use DRIED BLOOD here.) I couldn't help but think of Peter Proctor doing so much BD work in India. Do you have any idea of how he has found acceptance of this idea by Hindus and other vegetarians: using cattle parts to make preparations that are applied to food crops? Thanks -Allan Balliett csa@claymont.org From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 19 09:13:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05848 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28434; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:10:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28249 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:06:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-18.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.51]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA27284 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 06:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <380C6CD4.A3D82B1A@ap.net> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 06:06:28 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: FWD: Bargyla Rateaver on the Future References: <00c601bf198b$f9f9a7e0$6a4b2e9c@oemcomputer> <380C53E0.A7C14339@ioa.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2046 Chris Sawyer wrote: > Julie wrote: > > > Anita, > > > > I find this post offensive & a breach of netiquette.Julie > > > > Clearly when you point the finger you have three pointing back at > yourownself....this post is annoying and off topic and an attack, two wrongs > never ever made something right, you should throw your computer from a train if > you can't do better... > > Chris Children, kindly park your egos. The door is always open, stay or leave without recrimination. And if you cannot resist the fights, please work it out directly, not on the public stage. Thank You. Davidi. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 19 09:59:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06724 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01801; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:56:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01671 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:54:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d144.infoserve.net [199.175.157.144]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA02846 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 06:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000e01bf1a3a$9e8e1440$909dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: [women-enviro] Re: Environmental impacts on women Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:02:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2047 Dear Christine, Allan, Peter uses animal parts only from DEAD animals. Dead animals are everywhere and the smell of Death is everywhere. That was part of his talk at the Penticton conf. last year. Those Indians seem to accept the idea of using animal parts after the animal has expired by, I would guess, semi-natural or natural circumstances. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 5:49 AM Subject: Re: [women-enviro] Re: Environmental impacts on women >>Dear Christine, >>Peter Proctor and Rachel Pomeroy are in India and Sri Lanka at present >>teaching and training teachers. Peter can be contacted on email >>pproctor@inhb.co.nz or pproctor8@hotmail.com He will be there until >>February and may be able to help your friends. >>Cheryl Kemp. > >Dear Cheryl - > >Indian members of my CSA attended the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and >Gardening conference and were alarmed to hear about our use of animal parts >in the making of the preps. (They were even more alarmed to see an >amendment table selling DRIED BLOOD, but that was irrelevant because we >don't use DRIED BLOOD here.) I couldn't help but think of Peter Proctor >doing so much BD work in India. Do you have any idea of how he has found >acceptance of this idea by Hindus and other vegetarians: using cattle parts >to make preparations that are applied to food crops? > >Thanks > >-Allan Balliett >csa@claymont.org > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 19 10:58:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07642 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:58:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07339; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:53:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07251 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:52:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.013B5B0F@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:53:28 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 19 Oct 99 10:53:28 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 19 Oct 99 10:53:07 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:52:59 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: OFF: netiquette (a bit long) in answer to Julie Priority: normal In-reply-to: <00c601bf198b$f9f9a7e0$6a4b2e9c@oemcomputer> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2048 > Anita, > > I find this post offensive & a breach of netiquette. The closing > 'clean-up' does not negate the bulk of your post. > > Presuming to interpret (and ridicule) an organic pioneer & elder's > message...someone who isn't even a member of this forum, so they > cannot defend or clarify. Many BDNowers are also Sanetters & > remember the exchange that took place the last time you attacked > Bargyla. > > In case you forgot, read this, perhaps it will jog your memory: > > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail/html-home/36-html/0502.html > > Julie Julie, Just so you know, it was that Sanet exchange that brought me and Bargyla together. I know that a lot of other people were offended by some things I wrote in the Sanet exchange, but Bargyla was not, and we became friends through that exchange. I didn't post anything here with the intention of being offensive. Bargyla has written me *extensively* about her Bible beliefs, and I don't think I said anything that is not true about what she believes. Of course the tone of how I said it is filtered through my own thoughts of it. But even my own thoughts do not denegrate Bargyla as a person or her right to understand things the way she does. She is certainly sincere in her beliefs which, by the way, she doesn't really see as "beliefs" per se, but as plain fact. If she were to comment on *my* beliefs (which I happen to freely admit *are* beliefs) she might use a similar characterization as I did with her -- she is no milquetoast. She would be the first one to tell you that I am WRONG, totally mistaken, and deluded for believing in something like karma or reincarnation. She would not pussy-foot around the issue because there are no two ways about it for her. There are those who hold pagan or otherwise WRONG beliefs and will not rise again to be a part of the restored Eden, and there are those who WILL rise again to be a part of the restored Eden. Period. In the meantime, there is no heaven, hell, or purgatory as there is no "immortal soul." And the way she describes the hierarchy of things, just *does* sound to *me* like a benign dictatorship with Jesus at the helm. So what? Bargyla doesn't need to *defend* anything. If any of you want to see the Bible through her eyes, all you have to do is ask, as I did, and she will be more than pleased to take you through it. I think I offended you much more than I have ever offended Bargyla. I have noticed that listserves frequently get into these tangles of people getting offended for others. I had no intention of *offending* you or anyone else. I am very sorry you chose to be so offended. I can't promise it won't happen again, but I can assure you that it isn't done with such intentions. Although cyber space is a sort of funny, unreal way to know people, I certainly have very warm regard for almost everyone (including you) on the listserves I subscribe to. I really enjoy seeing the differences of opinions out there, the differences of experience, knowledge, and wisdom. And I enjoy the exchanges and seeing how we all interact with one another. I have seen on every list I've been a part of how easy it is to get your "buttons pushed" by someone else, and many times it is hard to put what people say in a proper context because of this medium. I have seen people I know, for example, who I know to be kind and loving say things which seem harsh and cruel. So, personally, I try to put on an extra layer of skin, as it were, when doing the e-communication thing. We're all so complex!! How would I imagine, for example, that after "knowing" Hugh Lovel and Greg Willis through their posts that they would turn out to be great friends and colleagues? Makes me realize there's a lot more to Greg than the posts of his I have read which seem clearly offensive to just about anyone's sensibilties. That's also something I find very interesting. Ok, but your point was that I did harm to the message of "an organic pioneer and elder." Well, you might not ever shame me by playing the "age" card, since that doesn't mean much to me. (It's herasy, I know! It may even be offensive, I don't know. But that is how I think. I don't treat people differently because of age. Sorry.) I also don't see how Bargyla's pioneering work in organics is lessened by a characterization of her religions beliefs. Now, you ARE right that I did not use the most polite and delicate of language, and you're right that I would not write it to *her* in that way (as I hope that she would be a bit more gentle telling me what she thinks of my beliefs to my face than she would be to someone who agrees with her perspective...). I could have expressed myself with much less condecention. You're absolutely right, and for that I appologize. Thankfully, it's a new day, and yet another new thing to learn in it! Humbly and respectfully yours, Anita PS. Next time you want to bring a failure of manners or consideration to the attention of someone, perhaps you could be as gentle in your admonition as you would have the accused be in future correspondence. Please re-read your letter to me and ask yourself if you received such a note if it would make you feel contrition or a negative reaction. It is truly easier to preach than it is to practice... Anita Graf 313-F Conner Hall Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-7509 (706) 542-1915 phone (706) 542-0739 fax agraf@agecon.uga.edu From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 19 14:01:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12635 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:01:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26252; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:56:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25851 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:53:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.50] (pm3shep2-163-64.intrepid.net [209.190.163.64]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA32653 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:54:18 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000e01bf1a3a$9e8e1440$909dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 02:01:33 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: [women-enviro] Re: Environmental impacts on women Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2049 > > Dear Christine, Allan, > > Peter uses animal parts only from DEAD animals. Dead animals are >everywhere and the smell of Death is everywhere. That was part of his talk >at the Penticton conf. last year. Those Indians seem to accept the idea of >using animal parts after the animal has expired by, I would guess, >semi-natural or natural circumstances. >Michael Ouch! Tell me this again: are you saying that Peter only uses parts of animals who have died of natural causes? -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 19 14:35:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13395 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:35:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29713; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:31:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA29484 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:29:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ppp18.sabin.mwt.net [156.46.75.118]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA10875 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:25:43 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <006301bf1a5f$bab67c00$764b2e9c@oemcomputer> From: "Julie" To: References: Subject: OFF: Re: netiquette to Anita Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:28:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2050 I've taken your advice, re-read my post, and I stand by it. I refuse to enter the web you so articulately weave, Anita. I've seen too many flies fall into the trap! But thanks for clarifying...your alliance with Greg sure clears things up for me! Julie From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 19 21:32:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20860 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:32:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA04273; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from runningman.mobilixnet.dk ([195.78.82.41]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03984 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:27:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from carol (dialin-107-005.mobilixnet.dk [212.97.200.5]) by runningman.mobilixnet.dk (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA43286 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 23:13:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991019223424.00b36100@mail.mobilixnet.dk> X-Sender: mob34587@mail.mobilixnet.dk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:34:24 +0200 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Carol Jensen Subject: Re: [women-enviro] Re: Environmental impacts on women In-Reply-To: <000e01bf1a3a$9e8e1440$909dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2051 At 07:02 19-10-1999 -0700, you wrote: > Dear Christine, Allan, > > Peter uses animal parts only from DEAD animals. Dead animals are >everywhere and the smell of Death is everywhere. That was part of his talk >at the Penticton conf. last year. Those Indians seem to accept the idea of >using animal parts after the animal has expired by, I would guess, >semi-natural or natural circumstances. >Michael I believe that only the casteless work with the skins of dead animals, so I understand that if the Indians in question were Brahmins, they would be VERY alarmed! Carol ----------------------------------- Webmasters! You need help! Read my article "Grammar for Webmasters" at ------------------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 19 21:43:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20946 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:43:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05587; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:40:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05273 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:38:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d144.infoserve.net [199.175.157.144]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA16947 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 18:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000201bf1a9c$b57f4360$909dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: proctor/India Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:33:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF1A4F.A64BFE80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2052 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF1A4F.A64BFE80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, that is my understanding from Peter's talk on bd in India. They = don't like to kill certain animals, but, ones that are already dead is = ok. There seem to be dead ones all over the place. M. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF1A4F.A64BFE80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, that is my = understanding from=20 Peter's talk on bd in India.  They don't like to kill certain = animals, but,=20 ones that are already dead is ok. There seem to be dead ones all over = the place.=20 M.
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF1A4F.A64BFE80-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 20 12:24:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00856 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08647; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:21:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08440 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:19:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hNNDa23737 (4421) for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:20:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.c373fdee.253f45ba@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:20:10 EDT Subject: from Christine To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2053 Dear Cheryl, Thank you for your post. Re Peter Proctor, he may be helpful with the next issue of LILIPOH with the question of animal parts. Another question: I am super intrigued by your mention of "indigo kids". We just had such a one with us for eight weeks, a four year old who simply decided she wanted to spend some time with us, and decided when it was time to go back home. Can you write me anything more about your experiences? Could you imagine it as a letter to LILIPOH, or a small section in the Mother to Mother page? I think this is a topic that should be made conscious for many parents. Footnote: while our four year old was with us some Jehovah's Witnesses came by and said there would be resurrection of the bodies at the end, but in the meantime when we died we were gone, and we certainly were nowhere before birth. Aine stood at the door next to me gazing at them in her conscious, interested and earnest way and I asked them whether they thought someone like that could have gotten where she is after merely four years. Thanks and regards, Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 20 12:58:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02717 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:58:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12215; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:55:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12146 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:54:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.31] (r-67.102.alltel.net [166.102.67.102]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id LAA06619 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:55:58 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:55:58 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: uai@alltel.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: A little Humor Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2054 From: Davrougeau@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 00:31:10 EDT Subject: Fwd: Bricklayer's story! To: Maparou@i-55.com, dandm@i-55.com, Bhounshell@home.com, KathiStan@msn.com, HWHMICRO@i-55.com, UAI@stc.net, Dwrougeau@i-55.com, Avachi@aol.com, DebOrlando@aol.com, BGBillyA@aol.com, MathMagicn@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Bricklayer Accident Report This is a bricklayer's accident report that was printed in the newsletter of the English equivalent of the Workers' Compensation Board. So here, thanks to John, is this Bricklayer's report. Dear Sir; I am writing in response to your request for additional information in Block #3 of the accident reporting form. I put "Poor Planning" as the cause of my accident. You asked for a more complete explanation and I trust the following details will be sufficient. I am a bricklayer by trade. On the day of the accident, I was working alone on the roof of a new six-story building. When I completed my work, I found I had some bricks left over which, when weighed later, were found to weigh 240 lbs. Rather than carry the bricks down by hand, I decided to lower them in a barrel by using a pulley which was attached to the side of the building at the sixth floor. Securing the rope at ground level, I went up to the roof, swung the barrel out, and loaded the bricks into it. Then I went down and untied the rope, holding it tightly to insure a slow descent of the 240 lbs of bricks. You will note on the accident reporting form that my weight is 135 lbs. Due to my surprise at being jerked off the ground so suddenly, I lost my presence of mind and forgot to let go of the rope. Needless to say, I proceeded at a rapid rate up the side of the building. In the vicinity of the third floor, I met the barrel which was now proceeding downward at an equally impressive speed. This explains the fractured skull, minor abrasions, and the broken collarbone, as listed in Section 3, accident reporting form. Slowed only slightly, I continued my rapid ascent, not stopping until the fingers of my right hand were two knuckles deep into the pulley which I mentioned in Paragraph 2 of this correspondence. Fortunately, by this time I had regained my presence of mind and was able to hold tightly to the rope, in spite of the excruciating pain I was now beginning to experience. At approximately the same time however, the barrel of bricks hit the ground and the bottom fell out of the barrel. Now devoid of the weight of the bricks, the barrel weighed approximately 50 lbs. I refer you again to my weight. As you might imagine, I began a rapid descent down the side of the building. In the vicinity of the third floor, I met the barrel coming up. This accounts for the two fractured ankles, broken tooth and severe lacerations of my legs and lower body. Here my luck began to change slightly. The encounter with the barrel seemed to slow me enough to lessen my injuries when I fell into the pile of bricks and fortunately only three vertebrae were cracked. I am sorry to report, however, as I lay there on the pile of bricks, in pain, unable to move and watching the empty barrel six stories above me, I again lost my composure and presence of mind and let go of the rope. Imagine that, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 20 16:44:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10069 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 16:44:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA14166; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 16:34:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA13776 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 16:32:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.105] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.105]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FJX00J446HQDT@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:03:46 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:11:32 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: from Christine In-reply-to: <0.c373fdee.253f45ba@aol.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id QAA13797 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2055 >Dear Cheryl, >Thank you for your post. Re Peter Proctor, he may be helpful with the next >issue of LILIPOH with the question of animal parts. >Another question: I am super intrigued by your mention of "indigo kids". We >just had such a one with us for eight weeks, a four year old who simply >decided she wanted to spend some time with us, and decided when it was time >to go back home. Can you write me anything more about your experiences? Could >you imagine it as a letter to LILIPOH, or a small section in the Mother to >Mother page? I think this is a topic that should be made conscious for many >parents. > >Footnote: while our four year old was with us some Jehovah's Witnesses came >by and said there would be resurrection of the bodies at the end, but in the >meantime when we died we were gone, and we certainly were nowhere before >birth. Aine stood at the door next to me gazing at them in her conscious, >interested and earnest way and I asked them whether they thought someone like >that could have gotten where she is after merely four years. > >Thanks and regards, >Christine > > Dear Cheryl and Christine : Please share with me privately whatever info you have on Indigo Children. My understanding is that they are special children, it is being said; not really belonging to this earth plane and that started appearing in the 60's. Also I know that they are usually diagnose with ADD. An article on this, "The New Children", can be seen at www.lightsmith.com. There is also a book with instructions to parents on how to deal with the special needs of this children, I guess Waldorf will be a good option, don't you think ? My daughter Sofia, age 5, has been diagnose with minor ADD and, she is most definetelly out of this world !. And No, we have no plans to dope her with Ritalin as it is being done with an alarming percentage of the kids in elementary school age. I do not know if there are really Indigo Children coming from other planes, what I do know is that our kids are much brighter, alert, capable and non conformant than ever before. Probably it is because of the enourmous information and stimuli that reaches them constantly, I do not know. But for sure we must adjust our parenting and schooling ways, instead of trying to make them fit a shoe that is way too small. When a large percentage of a population fails to comply with the system it is not a problem of the population, but of the system. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 20 16:51:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10281 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 16:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15873; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 16:48:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA15301 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 16:44:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.31] (r-66.137.alltel.net [166.102.66.137]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id PAA21795 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:45:34 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:45:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00bc01bf1914$bf06d6c0$4c431ccb@cherylke> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Alternative Pest Control Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2056 Dear Cheryl, This was a very interesting post. Between myself and my co-worker, Lorraine Cahill, we have been experimenting with potencies of the preps for several years. I'm not much of one for keeping records, but Lorraine does this well. With all our field broadcasters she is keeping track of eachg property and the homeopathic potencies she determined (by pendulum dowsing) appropriate for the various preps. These normally have been under 15x but the combinations tend to vary for each location. Moreover she has found that over the course of a year the desired potencies change, so that as the property is transformed by applying the preps different potencies are required. We've only been doing this with the field broadcasters a couple years, so we don't know too awfully much about it yet. But we are accumulating a data base and in 10 years or so we should know considerably more than we do now about homeopathic potencies of the preps. Best regards, Hugh Lovel >Dear James, > >I thought everyone else would also rush in with answers. We have had many >discussions on this list, so maybe if you go to the archives and look up >pest control, you will have plenty of material. We have discussed peppering >and various ways of coping with slugs and snails, with heliothis, (Hugh >Lovell has had some great pieces there) I have put on a whole article on >peppering, and Michael Roboz has had some great insights into insects etc. >Maria Thuns book, "and and the Constellations" has a great section about >peppering too. (Peppering is where the skin of an animal or the seeds of the >weed, or the insect is burnt at a specific time, and the ashes ground up and >spread out onto the area that needs to repel them. The "Pepper" an also be >potentised to a higher potency so that the use of the peppers can go >further ) > >Just a additional note on peppering, (and yes we are keeping records >Malcolm,) one of our farmers has overcome a great problem of fruit bats >around his orchard. He peppered a fruit bat and potentised to 6x, sprayed >around the edge of the orchard, about 1/2 acre, and now the fruit bats >congregate around the edges with the bower birds that he also peppered (6x) >making a great noise of frustration AND DO NOT GO IN! The neighbours have >lost so much fruit and are so impressed that they asked them to spray their >place too. The interesting aspect is, that on testing for the potency they >had to go to 60x !! I said to the BD Farmers, (before I knew the new >potency,) that it probably wouldn't work, as the neighbours had no BD preps >on the ground, and they both looked at each other and said, that must be >why we had to go so much higher for them!!. I have had other (sensitive )BD >people say that the BD preps are needed to "anchor " the energies into the >ground. That without the BD preps, the earth is not sensitive enough to >pick up on the vibrations of the peppers or even cosmic energies, I feel. >Interesting that the 60x was required for the unprepped earth. ( I would say >we were getting past the etheric into the astral realm here?) >Back to the peppering of the fruit bats and bower birds, they have sprayed >two nights and plan the third in succession, all in Moon in Sagittarius, >fruit sign. And after the first spraying the neighbours had not attack >either and saw many bats and birds around the edges making a great noise!. > >So James, it is a huge subject, which requires a lot of understanding and is >still being developed. I would suggest that you could says that there are >ways to work, apart from killing and spraying with poisons, and that a lot >of empirical work is being done with it. >In pasture and vegetable growing, we are getting great results with >application of all the preparations, especially Prep.501, as it is able to >raise the sugar levels in the sap and this repels insect attack - so healthy >soil creates healthy plants and animals. >Best wishes with your talk, >Cheryl Kemp >Education & News Leaf Editor >Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. >of Australia Inc. >P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) >627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) >Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 > >-----Original Message----- >From: David Isaacs >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Saturday, 16 October 1999 11:46 pm >Subject: Re: Alternative Pest Control > > >> >> >>Shannan and James Johnson wrote: >> >>> Dear BDers, >>> >>> I have a question concerning pest control. I have less than 2 weeks to >>> put together a talk that includes alternatives to pesticides for our >>> county PCA's. I am honored that the Ag. Commissioner's office asked for >>> my input as I have had discussions over topics considered controversial >>> in our office (UC Coop Ext) that would be of interest to members on this >>> list. >>> >>> I want to approach the talk from a perspective of soil health equals >>> plant health equals tolerant plants but I need a bit more on what to do >>> once the system is out of balance. Are there good perennial weed >>> controls through BD or organic practices? Does anyone know how to get a >>> hold of Phil Calahan or Tom Dykstra so I can ask them about Paramagnetic >>> influences on pests? Does the cosmic (Heironymus) pipe have any >>> documentation or University research that I can refer to? Citations are >>> very important to me. Otherwise a testimonial will be challenged and I >>> don't have experience in all these areas to say for certain the claims >>> are true. What other "unusual" methods of pest control can you throw >>> out at me that a conventional producer would deem applicable to their >>> fields. >>> >>> One aside, for David's skeptical views I would recommend you read, >>> "Alternative Science: Challenging the Myths of the Scientific >>> Establishment" for a better perspective on the contributions of >>> paranormal and unconventional science. >>> >>> I thank you for any contributions and if these topics were discussed in >>> the past, an archive will do just fine. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> James Johnson >>> Windsor, CA >>> shanjam@igc.org >> >>Hi folks! >> >>I didn't intend to appear skeptical, just trying to get my mystical buddies >>to practice practical philosophy. Weeds, as a good friend of mine once >>explained are just "plants out of place". And in the circumstances >>mentioned, were really happy critters growing like gangbusters. The soil >>and energy sounded perfectly suited to them and my esoteric vision hit the >>logical wall. Rex's post suggesting that the soil was still the problem - >>the "weeds" were being fed better than the intended crops - made perfect >>sense. >> >>But the SILENCE from the balance of the list has been unexpected especially >>from the "deva" end. Thanks for your interest. >> >>:o) Davidi/whirlderv@ap.net >> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 20 18:08:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11864 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 18:08:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA23791; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 18:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wavecom.net (root@wave.sheridan.wy.us [206.54.116.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA23424 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 18:00:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dbrown (vcn2.usrnet-1.sher.wy.vcn.com [209.193.70.107]) by wavecom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA31402 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:59:34 -0600 Message-ID: <001501bf1b4f$8bfddde0$6b46c1d1@dbrown.wavecom.net> From: "Audrey Malan" To: Subject: Re: indigo kids? Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 16:05:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2057 Cheryl, Christine I must have missed the original post that Christine is responding to - but am also interested in the "indigo kids" - Anyone have more info., or web site sources? Thank you, Audrey -----Original Message----- From: Lilipoh@aol.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:21 AM Subject: from Christine >Dear Cheryl, >Thank you for your post. Re Peter Proctor, he may be helpful with the next >issue of LILIPOH with the question of animal parts. >Another question: I am super intrigued by your mention of "indigo kids". We >just had such a one with us for eight weeks, a four year old who simply >decided she wanted to spend some time with us, and decided when it was time >to go back home. Can you write me anything more about your experiences? Could >you imagine it as a letter to LILIPOH, or a small section in the Mother to >Mother page? I think this is a topic that should be made conscious for many >parents. > >Footnote: while our four year old was with us some Jehovah's Witnesses came >by and said there would be resurrection of the bodies at the end, but in the >meantime when we died we were gone, and we certainly were nowhere before >birth. Aine stood at the door next to me gazing at them in her conscious, >interested and earnest way and I asked them whether they thought someone like >that could have gotten where she is after merely four years. > >Thanks and regards, >Christine > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 20 19:16:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12596 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:16:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28830; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:08:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA28552 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.31] (r-67.147.alltel.net [166.102.67.147]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA03215 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 18:06:04 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 18:06:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <380A9E10.4918@xtra.co.nz> References: <006d01bf18ed$317796e0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2058 Dear Glen, Andrew, et. al., I find this airing of frustrations more than a little interesting. On the one hand I can think of no more time honored growth modality than growth by schism. And Thoreau pointed out, "Just as when there is a lull in a storm a snowdrift piles up, when there is a lull in the truth an organization springs up." So it seems a necessary evil of forming associations, churches, governments, organizations of all kinds, that there is a loss of the creative impulses that gave rise to these group entities. On the other hand, I see that there is a need for organizations. So we have churches, governments, and biodynamic associations despite the tendency for these organizations to become hidebound and corrupt. We know that governments govern best when they govern least, but it is in the nature of human beings that societies come unglued when there is NO government at all. Parents see it too that when they do not lay down at least some fundamental disciplinary guidelines their kids and the family in general suffers. Here in North America we have now two biodynamic associations--the BDA and the ABA (American Biodynamic Association). I'm a member of both and plan on keeping it that way for the forseeable future. But if anyone thinks there wasn't a need for a second association they should think again. For example, I have served on certification bodies and been quite outspoken about the issue of achieving quality production and not just following rote procedures. Our Demeter certification organization has long required so many years and certain minimal applications of biodynamic preparations. But there is no testing procedure for determining if this is getting top quality results and too little educational work to see that farmers learn how to achieve these top results. As a consequence someone who converts to BD, starts out with a frequent sequential spray program and gets very high quality results in their first year is not going to get certified full Demeter even though they are getting better quality results than someone who has been half-heartedly applying occasional doses of one prep by itself (which I have found creates imbalances, sometimes serious ones) for ten years or more. The one applying preps for 10 years gets certified without question while the better practitioner must wait the minimum time period. I experience frustration with this sort of thing. What is really needed is a method for testing quality crops and certifying crops. I know this is true because I grow the most incredible BD turnips in the fall. But that is the only time of year I get such results. I can plant turnips in the spring and I don't anymore because they are nothing to brag about. They don't merit the same level of certification that my fall turnips do. The same thing is true in reverse with my spring rhubarb. It is excellent. This time of year (fall) the rhubarb is nothing to brag about. I grew some cantaloupes this summer and they ran out of steam without rain. I had the same thing happen with my late sweet corn. Neither one would have made biodynamics and Demeter look good had my farm been certified Demeter. If we certified crops I think it might be a different story. The way I understand it there is no way our Demeter Association is going to change their ways, so there had to be an ABA created with its own certification body for quality certified crops to occur. Quite frankly I encourage everyone (who shares my concern for certifying QUALITY) to at least join the ABA along with the BDA unless they only want to belong to the ABA. And I suspect that Glen's best option in New Zealand will be to get together a second biodynamic organization there. Otherwise, how will he get his concerns addressed? The same sort of thing has been true of publication policies. The most I have been welcomed as a writer for the pages of BIODYNAMICS (the BDA journal) was when our list moderator, Allan, was editor. Other than that I believe I've only had two things published in 20 years. Never mind that I wrote a book about biodynamics and that I have been writing about biodynamics for ACRES, U.S.A. for a dozen years. I'm not trying to lay blame around for this, but it is the reality. I wrote a dual part article on the Nature of Forces that I was asked to contribute when Allan was editor, and I think it was a significant contribution to BD literature. It was a fledgling attempt to show that one needn't be clairvoyant like Rudolf Steiner to see the signature of etheric and astral forces in nature. The signs of the forces we deal with in BD farming and gardening are everywhere and mostly they are ignored. Everyone sees them, but almost no one notices them. Perhaps that dual article should be reprinted in other BD journals. I hope someone has copies. At the moment I don't. But there needs to be a whole lot more of this kind of writing in biodynamics. Too many folks are mystified by the concept of ether and astrality. I've been asked to write something of a column and also articles and more articles for the upcoming journal of the ABA. From my point of view that's a definite improvement in the situation. I want to see biodynamics become THE farming method that really merits the name FARMING. I want to see it become the methodology in use everywhere everyday. Until it does, the way I understand it, we can expect to see no end of aborted will for action, and no end of peoples' main inner hinderances--personal ambition, illusions and petty jealousies. To quote Steiner "This is a problem of nutrition. Nutrition as it is today does not supply the strength necessary for manifesting the spirit in physical life. A bridge can no longer be built from thinking to will and action. Food plants no longer contain the forces people need for this." Well we'd sure solve a lot of problems in this world by making BD farming the rule rather than the exception. If it takes creating a second, third, fourth or more biodynamic organizations that's fine with me. Biodynamics needs to become mainstream and I see no chance for it doing so as long as everyone doing biodynamics plods along in one clannish, insular organization. I don't mean offense to the BDA when I use these terms. The BDA is an organization and subject to the usual ills of organizations. Given time the ABA will suffer similarly. In any event the world needs top quality BD grown food and a lot of it. It doesn't so much need BD food that is grown by rote. We need creative BD growers, folks with a real urge to keep growing better and better products. We need the latest information on how to do that, and we need to certify crops instead of just farms. Sure, I suppose we'll continue certifying farms as part of any certification procedure, but we really need the emphasis to be on producing the highest possible quality. I don't like back biting any more than anyone else. In fact I haven't much patience for it at all. But constructive criticism is another matter. This particular discussion has included some of both. Well, okay, but we need a lot, lot more of the latter. Best, warmest regards all, Hugh Lovel > >Is not this just creating the split we/you are saying is not a good >thing for the BD movement. I believe everyone I know who has a beef is >off doing their own thing. Is this the point though. > >In this case, our offical Associations become an ass, of no credibility >and a hinderance to everyone who is working towards the good. They are >the Saturn, they are the authority to all who need them. Yet they cause >more harm than good. Is it not the responsibility of its members to >bring about and to constantly ensure, its healthy life. This is not >another commercial company, this is an association of members, using the >voice of the members as its credibility. One problem we have is our BDAs >have become commercial activites with wages to pay and preps to sell and >trademarks to uphold. Peoples survival becomes threatened and the >Association must be controlled by the few it supports, for their own >survival. At this point our association becomes our competition. It >looses its purpose as a social cultural organism and harmonious support >of all sectors of the the community disappears. Members working in the >same field but not employed by the association become competitiors and >the enemy. This is sick and sad and in need of discussing. Out loud. It >makes an ass of Anthroposophy and Rudolf Steiner and is not helpful at >all. > > > >> On the whole, though, most good things dont come from complaint, criticism, >> angry words, aggrevated assault (of the verbal kind) and finger-pointing. >> Most good things are not built with anger. Anger is a tearing down process >> and sometimes is necessary. Building up is another matter. As the good book >> says, we shall know you by your fruit. Doing good takes so much more (and >> different energy) that fighting what isnt working. Trying to fix what is >> broken is certainly one path, creating things that work is another. I was >> merely suggesting that the former is not as significant and the latter. >> >> Besides, after a while the anger thing gets boring. >> >> All the best, >> Andrew > >So does the abuse of power and competition amoungst comrades. Innovative >edges are hard enough without insecure beaurocrats getting in the way of >the true community providing the necessary warmth for such innovation to >come into full life. > >Why would you imagine, Andrew would 20 years of practical commercialised >development upon Koliskos "Agriculture of Tomorrow" have received a >total of five minutes presentation time to the NZ BD community. Even >given that after that 5 minutes the AGM members present declared the >work an appropriate part of BD and to be supported by the Association. >Why would offers of experiments between 500 and potentised preps come to >nothing due to BDANZ inaction. > >What is going on here Andrew, is this reasonable, ethical, morally just >and worthy of being 'nice' about???? > >Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 20 19:37:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12873 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00556; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00355 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.21] (pm3shep4-163-190.intrepid.net [209.190.163.190]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA18539 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:30:14 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:35:23 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: [Fwd: "Gore confirms what we knew"] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id TAA00358 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2059 >Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 17:32:44 -0500 >From: Mary Hendrickson >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: Community Food Security Coalition >Subject: [Fwd: "Gore confirms what we knew"] >Reply-To: HendricksonM@missouri.edu >Sender: owner-comfood-l@listproc.tufts.edu > >This came from a producer in Western Kansas and it shows where many >policy makers think our food supply is heading. > >Mary > >-------- Original Message -------- >Subject: "Gore confirms what we knew" > Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 17:18:12 -0700 > From: "Mike Callicrate" > To: > > The following article is reprinted from the Ag Journal, Billings >Montana: > > > >"Gore confirms what we knew" > >"At a recent ceremony at the White House, Vice President and >presidential candidate Al Gore let slip what many have long believed was >his real intention as regards US agriculture. > >"While presenting a national award to a Colorado FFA member, Gore asked >the student what his/her life plans were. Upon hearing that the FFA >member wanted to continue on in production agriculture, Gore reportedly >replied that the young person should develop other plans because >‘production agriculture is being shifted out of the US to the third >world.’" > >"Gore was instrumental in the development of the United Nations' Agenda >2000, which calls for just an outcome." > >-Producer's Bulletin, 9/99 > > > >How important is a safe and dependable food supply? > >Many people believe it is very important. Food should be on a level of >National security. > >The Ag Journal, a long time trusted name in ag news, will provide you >with a free introductory six month subscription. Call: 406-259-5406 > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 20 19:37:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12900 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:37:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00625; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00433 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:30:12 -0400 (EDT) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hSa0026614 (3888) for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:30:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.2b69f11.253faaa4@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:30:44 EDT Subject: Re: farm certification To: BDNow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2060 Greetings, To follow Hugh, Andrew and Glen's thread I'll be posting 2 letters I sent recently to Anne Mendenhall regarding ideas to better certification proceedures. I belive they are salient to the current topic being tossed around. The letters will be posted separately. I left out Anne's response out of courtesy. Truly, Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 20 19:38:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12915 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01020; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:35:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d01.mx.aol.com (imo-d01.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.33]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00756 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:32:44 -0400 (EDT) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hSAGG7DQu_ (3888) for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:33:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.3b4dc612.253fab36@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:33:10 EDT Subject: Letter #1 To: BDNow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2061 > Hi Anne, > > My wife Liz and I were having a discussion on how students are graded in > their work. (Liz has been teaching for over 20 years) She said student > performance is moving toward individual assessments (with each student having > their own portfolio) and away from comparisons made against other students in > a particular grade. That is to say each student's work is compared with their > own performance in the past for a measure of how they are progressing. While > this may not be earth shattering news to us it is a significant step in > education today. Anyways, in regards to student's own porfolios, this > collection of work (data) is crucial for a measure of progress. I am using > this as an example of how Demeter certification might work in the future. But > before I elaborate there is another subject that Liz talked about concerning > peer review and somehow this too is part of how farms could be certified. > Peer review between teachers usually takes place in thier own classroom by > another visiting teacher (real time with students). The reviewer takes notes > listens, observes, and may even use an audio or visual recorder. This data is > gathered and compared with what is "normal" for the situation. Sometimes > students are "tracked" to the next grade where if the previous teacher's > techniques were somewhat indoubt, standardized tests could be compared from > the two grades. If student's grades in the comparison were floundering the > teacher's techniques could be questioned by the reviewer. The points I am > trying to make are that data is involved but comparitive standardized testing > is questionable because children do not "flower" (learn) at the same rate. > And, how could a teacher's performance be fairly measured by a system that > does not educate the individual? On to how this could work for Demeter > certification. > > New farm visitation by an evaluator is important. Once the evaluator > breathes, feels and sees the farm parts further vistations could be fewer. > Instead, re-certification $ could be used for objective > data collection. This comes to the point of objective value assesments of > soil (effective humus, CEC, etc.) and plants (vitamins, nitrate, etc.). > Right now there is little to prove in the real world that Demeter certified > produce IS better. Soil and plant test results would be entered into the > farm's porfolio. Progress of Demeter quality would be compared with the own > farm's past test results. If I may add, for Demeter produce to stand out in > the market place we need to objectively demonstrate that it IS better than > what else is offered. We need to up the ante for quality. I don't have to > prove to my customers that my produce tastes better and lasts longer in > storage. They already know that. Quantitative measurement is what people > really value. No need to push for intangible qualities that most do not > understand and appreciate. It might be easier to understand "Steiner food" > this way than initiate them into the philosophy. Those who are interested in > Anthroposophy will find their way there. > > Farm visitations could be made every 4th year (sooner or later) depending > on if the farm organization has or hasn't changed management or practices. > Video cameras could be used. This of course drifts away from the farm > evaluator's senses or feelings but the time I've been with Demeter no one has > checked my compost piles! > > In closing I hope these ideas (if they haven't already been tossed around > by the Demeter Board) find a way to help set the highest standard for food > production and begin a fruitful discussion. > > Best Regards, Patrick > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 20 19:45:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12996 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:45:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01483; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:39:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01051 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:35:45 -0400 (EDT) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hBPY158PF_ (3888) for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:36:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.eec69514.253fabed@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:36:13 EDT Subject: Letter #2 To: BDNow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2062 > Dear Anne, > > Thank you for you reply. I know the network of certifiing organizations is > a complex one and much of it I am not familiar. However, I must try to > clarify my views in regards to my last letter. > > First, there are a few Demeter certified farms out there whose integrity > is not questioned. They are visited yearly by an evaluator (with fees) as a > formality and also to conform to a certain national or international > "standards." I feel that these visits to well managed Biodynamic farms > executing all or most of Biodynamic measures are superfluous and a waste of > time and money. The energy involved in these visits is better spent in > documentation of quality of medium and product. This documentation will help > Demeter Association Inc. and the grower in marketing their product. I'm sure > in my case (if I might be included in those Demeter farms of good standing) > that $300.00 will buy some laboratory analysis that will shed some light on > how Biodynamic measures effect soil edaphon and plant qualities over time. To > focus on marketing before showing produce quality would be putting the cart > before the horse. There is also the problem of conforming to someone else's > standards i.e. national and international standards. We must build our own > boat before we jump their ship. The European studies are good and great but > those are not current. How much longer can we use those aside from the New > Zealand study? I've been on the first point too long. Here is the second > point. > > Any farmer can and will (human nature) tell any evaluator what they want > to hear. It doesn't matter that the evaluator might be within 3 feet or long > distance telephone away if they lie about what's actually gone on with their > farm inputs (or lack of). It can probably happen no matter how finely tuned > the evaluator's senses are to elemental beings or humans. Visitations are > important though. If management or personnel changes are radical, a visit is > mandatory. There are "things" too that are picked up by the presence of an > evaluating body, there is no doubt. > > Please let me know your reflections. I am earnestly interested. > > Best Regards, Patrick From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 20 20:05:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13219 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA03275; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:57:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA02966 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:54:41 -0400 (EDT) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hBHQjkVZN_ (3937) for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.8ade6fbc.253fb062@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:55:14 EDT Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 41 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2063 In a message dated 10/20/99 7:10:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, uai@alltel.net writes: << I want to see biodynamics become THE farming method that really merits the name FARMING. I want to see it become the methodology in use everywhere everyday. >> And why hasn't that happened? I'll venture three reasons from my short experience: 1) No simple "cookbook" approach and harder to implement. All that stirring, etc. It ain't hard to spread 10-10-10 and spray pesticides. 2) Difficult to explain BD (at least for me) to conv-ag people. Some of problem may be my inadequate understanding. 3) Not researched/embraced by academia (with few exceptions). Reason, no large agri-business behind it. Why hasn't there been requests for state ag people to reasearch it. ATTRA article on BD is a start but they aren't mainstream. I'd like to open the above to comments....... Identifying why a product (in this case BD) has not met expectations in the marketplace is the first step in determining what needs to be changed to better communicate the value of the product. Guess my past marketing career is showing. Hugh, you sure have done more than your share to spread the word but we need to reach the "hundredth monkey" magnitude before it can become mainstream. Maybe the Internet will help. As a side note, in the current issue of "Wine Spectator" there is an article about Anne-Claude Leflaive a Burgundy wine producer who uses BD. Even shows her pix with a jar of (I assume BD 500). The clincher is her wines are rated between 95 to 100 and those are mighty rare numbers for any wine. Dan L From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 20 20:17:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13316 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:17:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04520; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:11:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from russian-caravan.cloud9.net (russian-caravan.cloud9.net [168.100.1.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04201 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:09:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cloud9.net (mtoro.dialup.cloud9.net [168.100.205.209]) by russian-caravan.cloud9.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9ADB7638C for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <380E5957.7B33E70B@cloud9.net> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:07:51 -0400 From: Mark Santoro X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Fruit trees Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2064 Hello, Would anyone know where non-grafted fruit trees are available? I cannot seem to locate any sources, though I am sure some must exist. The trees would be needed for spring planting. Thanks, Mark From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 20 20:41:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13549 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:41:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA06734; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:38:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06598 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:36:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz ([202.50.81.131]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991021004207.DPBU3343352.mta1-rme@nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz> for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:42:07 +1300 Received: by NT_SVR1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:27:26 +1300 Message-ID: <05B1AE08E484D3118E9500805F9A3B78B39A@NT_SVR1> From: Lynne Sheridan To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: indigo kids? Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:27:19 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2065 This is new to me, Is this a phenomenom common in some countries rather than others? If my children wandered off and moved in with another family I surely would not let the matter rest. Is this a Bio Dynamic people issue? Can you please bring me and probably some of the other members of the group up to speed Regards Lynne > -----Original Message----- > From: Audrey Malan [SMTP:dbrown@wavecom.net] > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 12:05 PM > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Subject: Re: indigo kids? > > Cheryl, Christine > I must have missed the original post that Christine is responding to - but > am also interested in the "indigo kids" - Anyone have more info., or web > site sources? Thank you, Audrey > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lilipoh@aol.com > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:21 AM > Subject: from Christine > > > >Dear Cheryl, > >Thank you for your post. Re Peter Proctor, he may be helpful with the > next > >issue of LILIPOH with the question of animal parts. > >Another question: I am super intrigued by your mention of "indigo kids". > We > >just had such a one with us for eight weeks, a four year old who simply > >decided she wanted to spend some time with us, and decided when it was > time > >to go back home. Can you write me anything more about your experiences? > Could > >you imagine it as a letter to LILIPOH, or a small section in the Mother > to > >Mother page? I think this is a topic that should be made conscious for > many > >parents. > > > >Footnote: while our four year old was with us some Jehovah's Witnesses > came > >by and said there would be resurrection of the bodies at the end, but in > the > >meantime when we died we were gone, and we certainly were nowhere before > >birth. Aine stood at the door next to me gazing at them in her conscious, > >interested and earnest way and I asked them whether they thought someone > like > >that could have gotten where she is after merely four years. > > > >Thanks and regards, > >Christine > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 20 21:20:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA13905 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09510; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lexington.ioa.net (root@lexington.ioa.net [208.131.128.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09149 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:09:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ioa.com (ppp507.arden.dialup.ioa.com [208.133.47.198]) by lexington.ioa.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10304 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:10:35 -0400 Message-ID: <380E6A06.84BC8D06@ioa.com> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:19:05 -0500 From: Chris Sawyer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics References: <006d01bf18ed$317796e0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2066 Hugh Lovel wrote: > Dear Glen, Andrew, et. al., > > > > I want to see it become the methodology in use everywhere > everyday. Until it does, the way I understand it, we can expect to see no > end of aborted will for action, and no end of peoples' main inner > hinderances--personal ambition, illusions and petty jealousies. To quote > Steiner "This is a problem of nutrition. Nutrition as it is today does not > supply the strength necessary for manifesting the spirit in physical life. > A bridge can no longer be built from thinking to will and action. Food > plants no longer contain the forces people need for this." Well we'd sure > solve a lot of problems in this world by making BD farming the rule rather > than the exception. I am a skeptic, well sort of. New to the list. Have five certified organic acres producing food crops in western North Carolina, and in my second year. My friend and fellow farmer, doing his BD "Steiner style" farming on two acres has barely introduced me to the concepts and practices he uses, potions and brews for this and for that. Coming from a Joel Goldsmith, Emmet Fox, Jungarian view, I see this as yet another release of faith point. I believe that if one (truly being the operative word here) believes, in faith that something works, then it either works or a working way is presented. All food that is prepared with love and thanksgiving it seems to me takes on an etheric wholesome sustaining qualilty, no matter the source. Manna can surely come from heaven, so why not any ground that is made sacred by whatever ceremony one needs to release this faith....or power necessary to jump from thought to action. I tend to believe in more life, more diversity in microbes and bugs and plants....thereby growing as needs and conditions dictate. I think to be intuitive to what is growing all around naturally and being in tune is enough. However this is all intriguing to me because just as one cultivates and collects plants, should not one collect and distrubute beneficial microbes and invisible life. And then there is the Findhorn story to consider. Just some more comments from one who has come to farming late in life, just turing fifty. Chris Jakes Farm > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 00:16:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA15789 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 00:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA23019; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 00:10:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA22940 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 00:10:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.31] (r-67.102.alltel.net [166.102.67.102]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id XAA08236 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 23:11:07 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 23:11:07 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001d01bf1977$b86fcac0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Kolisko Institute? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2067 Andrew wrote: >I really do feel for your situation Glenn, and again I am very sorry that >you have had to bear all this. Lili Kolisko's work is also very dear to my >heart and I can just from that point of view sympathize a great deal. For >years her work has been ignored and left unspoken in this country too, let >alone worked with. Finally, after years of working on this myself, I was >able to form the Kolisko Institute, earlier this fall. Several fine >researchers and educators are working together now quietly to renew our >spiritual research in biodynamics. We will have a web-site soon to explain >our work and hopes ... and to promote research and education in biodynamics >in the spirit of her work. It will remain a modest effort, but one born not >of protest, but simply of positive focus. I hope this too, can inspire you. Dear Andrew and List, Lili Kolisko's work has long seemed to me the most significant research effort as regards biodynamic agriculture--to say nothing of homeopathy--since Steiner's day. Really it shows how stagnant biodynamics has been this last 75 years that so little has occurred as follow up on her research. Just the experiments plotting the results from sprouting wheat with each dilution in a series up to 30x (or D30)! Marvelous. The undulating patterns of positive and negative results as compared to plain water show the importance for finding the right dilution for each application. It is absolutely crucial. I sure hope to hear more about the Kolisko Institute. Regards, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 00:41:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA15930 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 00:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA24585; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 00:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA24509 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 00:36:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.31] (r-66.114.alltel.net [166.102.66.114]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id XAA05693 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 23:37:57 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 23:37:57 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: uai@alltel.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <380E6A06.84BC8D06@ioa.com> References: <006d01bf18ed$317796e0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: RE Biodynamics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2068 > >I am a skeptic, well sort of. New to the list. Have five certified organic >acres >producing food crops in western North Carolina, and in my second year. My >friend >and fellow farmer, doing his BD "Steiner style" farming on two acres has >barely >introduced me to the concepts and practices he uses, potions and brews for >this >and for that. SNIP > >Chris >Jakes Farm > >> > >> >> Dear Chris, Living in western North Carolina you must be close enough that you could visit. I'm in Blairsville, Georgia. I think there has been far too much "true believerism" in biodynamic circles in the past. There are some unusual aspects of the method, such as the use of minute quantities of preparations over large acreages. To folks (like myself) who grew up thinking you had to use whacking great amounts of things like manure to build fertile soil the application of a couple ounces of manure that was buried in a cow's horn to bring fertility to a whole acre sounds pretty crazy. However, this really gets good results when done properly (and that's one of the problems since it is possible to do things poorly and get poor results). The fact that such a procedure DOES work should have researchers falling all over themselves to find out why. This is where skepticism can be either healthy or unhealthy. If it takes the form of "That's preposterous and I won't listen to another word or give it any further consideration." then all such skepticism amounts to is closed mindedness. If the skepticism does not simply take such a method on faith and think in a smarmy, feel-good way that it's magic there's the possible good side--investigation. If more folks who go into BD were to investigate and find out WHY such procedures work then they could improve on them and get better and better results with the methods. Then the problem that it is possible to apply preparations poorly and get mediocre or little results can be overcome. And believe me if BD is to ever become mainstream this is what has to happen. Quite naturally I hope your skepticism is strong and healthy. And do come visit if you have a chance. One thing you can't fake is the great taste of these vegetables. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 04:00:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA17532 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 04:00:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA07338; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 03:57:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA07244 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 03:55:28 -0400 (EDT) From: HILAWRIGHT@aol.com Received: from HILAWRIGHT@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hNMTa12220 (4570) for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 03:55:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.4dd9b570.254020f7@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 03:55:35 EDT Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics - good news re wine To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 135 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2069 Dan writes about Anne-Claude Leflaive's wines achieving 90-95 from Robert Parker. There is some good news here. Her wines are great, and she is not alone. Both Nicolas Joly (who wrote Wine from Sky to Earth) and Domaine Huet in the Loire, and also Madame Leroy of Domaine Leroy in Burgundy, command high prices for their biodynamic wines and are often profiled by writers looking for a good story. And while journalists know how to make BD sound wacky, they invariably find themselves forced to end their articles by conceding that 'it may be weird but it somehow produces excellent wine.' In the UK it may even be true that people interested in food and wine have more chance to discover BD through wine than through food. (One major supermarket sells Demeter-certified meat, but doesn't identify it as 'biodynamic' on the label). I have a book coming out there in March 2000, on organic and biodynamic wine, that will make another small contribution to that awareness. The big story for me is that in France there are more and more BD conversions happening, and it's young, top-notch producers who are leading the charge. People like Olivier Humbrecht of Zind-Humbrecht in Alsace, who (if memory serves) produced the first wine ever to be rated 100/100 by Robert Parker. Michel Chapoutier in the Rhone has co-founded with many of the above a new biodynamic wine certifying body, 'Biodyvin', which promises to certify on the basis of quality - a big step forward. I'd really like to know how this trend is reflected in other wine-producing areas. Does anyone have any thoughts? I hope to visit British Columbia in November. Are there still any winemakers from BC on the list? Regards Hilary From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 08:16:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19827 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:16:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA18553; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA18463 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:11:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.50.58.59] (A28.reach.net [204.50.58.59]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA01296 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:12:25 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:12:25 -0400 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics - good news re wine Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2070 >Dan writes about Anne-Claude Leflaive's wines achieving 90-95 from Robert >Parker. > >There is some good news here. Her wines are great, and she is not alone. > >Both Nicolas Joly (who wrote Wine from Sky to Earth) and Domaine Huet in the >Loire, and also Madame Leroy of Domaine Leroy in Burgundy, command high >prices for their biodynamic wines and are often profiled by writers looking >for a good story. And while journalists know how to make BD sound wacky, they >invariably find themselves forced to end their articles by conceding that 'it >may be weird but it somehow produces excellent wine.' >... >The big story for me is that in France there are more and more BD conversions >happening, and it's young, top-notch producers who are leading the charge. >People like Olivier Humbrecht of Zind-Humbrecht in Alsace, who (if memory >serves) produced the first wine ever to be rated 100/100 by Robert Parker. > >Michel Chapoutier in the Rhone has co-founded with many of the above a new >biodynamic wine certifying body, 'Biodyvin', which promises to certify on the >basis of quality - a big step forward. > >I'd really like to know how this trend is reflected in other wine-producing >areas. >Does anyone have any thoughts? > >I hope to visit British Columbia in November. >Are there still any winemakers from BC on the list? > >Regards >Hilary I don't know if anyone is one the list from the B.C. winegrowers. Tilman Hainle, out in the Okanagan (his father was the first Canadian to make Ice Wine back in the 70's), is certified Organic in his own estate vineyards, and has converted some of his growers. And he's following whatever Organic rules there are for winery production too. And he's a kind, soft-spoke guy, too. However here's one rep from a new wine region in Ontario - me - in Prince Edward County (the big peninnsula/island hanging from the Canadian shore at the east end of Lake Ontario, if you're looking at a map. Just below Trenton and Belleville.) I'm reading, cautiously trying, attempting to understand why BD might work...which is why I've joined the list, and why I've tried to generate discussions on horsetail, among other things. Because I'm one of the pioneers out here, what I'm doing has a few other new growers interested. I've already read Nicolas Joly's Wine From Sky to Earth now a few times since its translation by Acres U.S.A., and I ordered a copy for another grower who's famous for her Chardonnay and skills and a viticulturalist (She's in the Niagara region, but has started a new vineyard out here, about 4 miles from mine). She's a little interested in the success I had in using horsetail to keep powdery mildew at bay during the 30 to 40 day long no sulphur window before harvest. [By the way, I though Alan was going to post his thoughts on Joly's book? Maybe I should do that later, to get the ball rolling.] So, we'll see what happens out here in this part of Ontario. I'm also told by someone who came down into the County from Ottawa last weekend for a look that the September Decanter wine magazine has an article discussing BD. Did anyone see it? Cheers, Geoff Heinricks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 09:32:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20953 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23272; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:28:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA23222 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:28:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.31] (r-67.167.alltel.net [166.102.67.167]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id IAA03408 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:29:26 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:29:26 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0.8ade6fbc.253fb062@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2071 Dan Lynch writes: > >And why hasn't that happened? I'll venture three reasons from my short >experience: >1) No simple "cookbook" approach and harder to implement. All that stirring, >etc. It ain't hard to spread 10-10-10 and spray pesticides. >2) Difficult to explain BD (at least for me) to conv-ag people. Some of >problem may be my inadequate understanding. >3) Not researched/embraced by academia (with few exceptions). Reason, no >large agri-business behind it. Why hasn't there been requests for state ag >people to reasearch it. ATTRA article on BD is a start but they aren't >mainstream. > >I'd like to open the above to comments....... > >Identifying why a product (in this case BD) has not met expectations in the >marketplace is the first step in determining what needs to be changed to >better communicate the value of the product. Guess my past marketing career >is showing. > > >Dan L Dear Dan, Your points are well made. BD HAS been difficult to communicate since it has some unusual aspects (all that stirring for example) that are beyond the ordinary public's world views. The idea of seeding the soil with catalytic materials (BD preps) is difficult for folks who are conditioned to believe you've got to use hundreds and hundreds of pounds of fertilizers per acre. The idea of seeding the ATMOSPHERE is even more difficult since it baffles most folks completely. The passage of wind and rain through a farm property has most people thinking that anything they might do to the atmosphere would be swept away almost immediately. Everyone seems to be polluting the atmosphere, but what can be done to improve it? You don't see any companies selling products to improve the atmosphere. Yet, if folks were to stop and think about how much plants and animals depend on the health and vitality of the atmosphere it should be obvious that seeding catalysts into the atmosphere is fully as important as doing this for the soil. There really is nothing about BD that can't be explained in common sense terms, and I cringe that so many writer seem intent on mystifying BD. But I can be guilty of this too since I've got such an extensive scientific education that I tend to go off into discussions of esoteric physics and talk of scalar forces, Bell's Theorem, chaos theory, Heisenberg's indetermanency principle, holograms, resonance, etc. and most high school physics teachers don't follow science that deep. Shucks. I know I should stick to common sense language even if technical explanations appeal more to me. Sooner or later that "hundredth monkey" will see the light and then BD will be launched into the mainstream. I'd like to see that happen in my lifetime. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 09:36:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21030 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23658; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:33:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d08.mx.aol.com (imo-d08.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA23320 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:29:04 -0400 (EDT) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hIQM0yvlHv (4262) for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:29:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.6b77fc44.25406f3f@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:29:35 EDT Subject: Re: Alternative Pest Control To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 41 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2072 Hugh, James, Cheryl, et al - As a relatively new BD practitioner, I would like to know more about the process and successes for weed elimination. Is there an explained cookbook approach or is it still shrouded in mystery. Is there an article(s) on the net or a book that someone has used WITH SUCCESS? I notice that I have had less critter damage the last two years of using BD but the damn weeds are a pain. Dan L, Long Mountain Vineyard In a message dated 10/20/99 4:50:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, uai@alltel.net writes: << Dear James, > >I thought everyone else would also rush in with answers. We have had many >discussions on this list, so maybe if you go to the archives and look up >pest control, you will have plenty of material. We have discussed peppering >and various ways of coping with slugs and snails, with heliothis, (Hugh >Lovell has had some great pieces there) I have put on a whole article on >peppering, and Michael Roboz has had some great insights into insects etc. >Maria Thuns book, "and and the Constellations" has a great section about >peppering too. (Peppering is where the skin of an animal or the seeds of the >weed, or the insect is burnt at a specific time, and the ashes ground up and >spread out onto the area that needs to repel them. The "Pepper" an also be >potentised to a higher potency so that the use of the peppers can go >further ) > >Just a additional note on peppering, (and yes we are keeping records >Malcolm,) one of our farmers has overcome a great problem of fruit bats >around his orchard. He peppered a fruit bat and potentised to 6x, sprayed >around the edge of the orchard, about 1/2 acre, and now the fruit bats >congregate around the edges with the bower birds that he also peppered (6x) >making a great noise of frustration AND DO NOT GO IN! The neighbours have >lost so much fruit and are so impressed that they asked them to spray their >place too. The interesting aspect is, that on testing for the potency they >had to go to 60x !! I said to the BD Farmers, (before I knew the new >potency,) that it probably wouldn't work, as the neighbours had no BD preps >on the ground, and they both looked at each other and said, that must be >why we had to go so much higher for them!!. I have had other (sensitive )BD >people say that the BD preps are needed to "anchor " the energies into the >ground. That without the BD preps, the earth is not sensitive enough to >pick up on the vibrations of the peppers or even cosmic energies, I feel. >Interesting that the 60x was required for the unprepped earth. ( I would say >we were getting past the etheric into the astral realm here?) >Back to the peppering of the fruit bats and bower birds, they have sprayed >two nights and plan the third in succession, all in Moon in Sagittarius, >fruit sign. And after the first spraying the neighbours had not attack >either and saw many bats and birds around the edges making a great noise!. > >So James, it is a huge subject, which requires a lot of understanding and is >still being developed. I would suggest that you could says that there are >ways to work, apart from killing and spraying with poisons, and that a lot >of empirical work is being done with it. >In pasture and vegetable growing, we are getting great results with >application of all the preparations, especially Prep.501, as it is able to >raise the sugar levels in the sap and this repels insect attack - so healthy >soil creates healthy plants and animals. >Best wishes with your talk, >Cheryl Kemp >Education & News Leaf Editor >Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. >of Australia Inc. >P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) >627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) >Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 > >-----Original Message----- >From: David Isaacs >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Saturday, 16 October 1999 11:46 pm >Subject: Re: Alternative Pest Control > > >> >> >>Shannan and James Johnson wrote: >> >>> Dear BDers, >>> >>> I have a question concerning pest control. I have less than 2 weeks to >>> put together a talk that includes alternatives to pesticides for our >>> county PCA's. I am honored that the Ag. Commissioner's office asked for >>> my input as I have had discussions over topics considered controversial >>> in our office (UC Coop Ext) that would be of interest to members on this >>> list. >>> >>> I want to approach the talk from a perspective of soil health equals >>> plant health equals tolerant plants but I need a bit more on what to do >>> once the system is out of balance. Are there good perennial weed >>> controls through BD or organic practices? Does anyone know how to get a >>> hold of Phil Calahan or Tom Dykstra so I can ask them about Paramagnetic >>> influences on pests? Does the cosmic (Heironymus) pipe have any >>> documentation or University research that I can refer to? Citations are >>> very important to me. Otherwise a testimonial will be challenged and I >>> don't have experience in all these areas to say for certain the claims >>> are true. What other "unusual" methods of pest control can you throw >>> out at me that a conventional producer would deem applicable to their >>> fields. >>> >>> One aside, for David's skeptical views I would recommend you read, >>> "Alternative Science: Challenging the Myths of the Scientific >>> Establishment" for a better perspective on the contributions of >>> paranormal and unconventional science. >>> >>> I thank you for any contributions and if these topics were discussed in >>> the past, an archive will do just fine. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> James Johnson >>> Windsor, CA >>> shanjam@igc.org >> >>Hi folks! >> >>I didn't intend to appear skeptical, just trying to get my mystical buddies >>to practice practical philosophy. Weeds, as a good friend of mine once >>explained are just "plants out of place". And in the circumstances >>mentioned, were really happy critters growing like gangbusters. The soil >>and energy sounded perfectly suited to them and my esoteric vision hit the >>logical wall. Rex's post suggesting that the soil was still the problem - >>the "weeds" were being fed better than the intended crops - made perfect >>sense. >> >>But the SILENCE from the balance of the list has been unexpected especially >>from the "deva" end. Thanks for your interest. >> >>:o) Davidi/whirlderv@ap.net >> >> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 09:58:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21567 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25516; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:55:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25433 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:54:55 -0400 (EDT) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hRHMa08128 (4262) for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:55:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.a7fa2d87.2540754e@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:55:26 EDT Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 41 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2073 Hugh, eureka I think you have hit on a magic word that will allow me to better communicate with the conv-ag people about BD. CATALYTIC. Most people understand how a minute amount of platinum in an automobile catalytic converter can alter tremendous amounts of exhaust and modify it and in a positive way. Seems like a perfect analogy to equate to BD and get at least a nodding understanding. Could even go further and relate how the platinum can be poisoned/damaged and how the preps might be damaged but that will require more thought. Great point Hugh, keep them coming. Dan L In a message dated 10/21/99 9:30:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, uai@alltel.net writes: << Your points are well made. BD HAS been difficult to communicate since it has some unusual aspects (all that stirring for example) that are beyond the ordinary public's world views. The idea of seeding the soil with catalytic materials (BD preps) is difficult for folks who are conditioned to believe you've got to use hundreds and hundreds of pounds of fertilizers per acre. >> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 09:59:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21598 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25559; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:55:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25442 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:54:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.31] (r-67.167.alltel.net [166.102.67.167]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id IAA13965 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:56:05 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:56:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0.6b77fc44.25406f3f@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Alternative Pest Control Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2074 >Hugh, James, Cheryl, et al - As a relatively new BD practitioner, I would >like to know more about the process and successes for weed elimination. Is >there an explained cookbook approach or is it still shrouded in mystery. Is >there an article(s) on the net or a book that someone has used WITH SUCCESS? > >I notice that I have had less critter damage the last two years of using BD >but the damn weeds are a pain. > >Dan L, Long Mountain Vineyard > Dear Dan, There definitely are BD methods for weed control. As you doubtless could see from my farm I'm not doing much good with them. Greg was pretty critical about that in fact. In particular he said the morning glories (which are a sign of tight soil and used to be much worse here) were draging the etheric field down and causing dips in the energy field. However, I've long been tolerant of most weeds here, and I'd have to get really together about remedying the situation. Actually it should be much easier with my field broadcaster (cosmic pipe) than if I physically applied weed peppers. A BD weed pepper is made by collecting a mass of seeds of the specific weed and burning these to ash (pepper) and spreading that about. Over the years there has been various research done with this method. It appears that since each plant (weed species) is related to a specific constellation and region of the zodiac it makes a difference what Moon constellation and perhaps even what Sun constellation the seeds are burned in. And perhaps, as one avenue I started to explore suggested, a portion should be burned in opposite pairs of constellations (such as Taurus/Scorpio). The ash can just be scattered like with a pepper shaker, or it can be potentized and sprayed. To make reagents for my field broadcaster Lorraine had planned to burn samples of selected weeds and send the peppers off to the Malcolm Rae Institute to have geometric cards made. Then she could make up any homeopathic potency needed from the geometric cards. That takes a lot of doing initially to gather seeds and schedule their burning, but once the cards are made the process would be quite simple. I've been keeping weed eradication on the back burner until she--or someone--accomplishes this initial work. I believe it could be very effective, however. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 10:17:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21861 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:17:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27416; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:13:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27309 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:12:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.31] (r-67.167.alltel.net [166.102.67.167]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id JAA11928 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:13:54 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:13:54 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Back Again Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2075 Dear BD List, This is to let folks know I'm back with the list. I had more than a week's car trouble in New York. then back to CSA emergencies and the like--typical farm overwhelm stuff. I've lost all my help and am milking "Bambi" and making cheese and butter by myself. But we've got the best fall greens ever, and turnips and chinese radishes are bulging in the ground. Still have a couple tons of butternut squash and potatoes to harvest, and the field corn is ripe and ready to pick. Good corn breads. Corn bread is another story which I hope to tell in the future. I've bred a super quality corn meal corn. Folks at Allan's conference had a taste. What say? I wanted to acknowledge something special. I finally met Guilermo Romero Ibarollo at Allan's conference. He could have been a Canadian bureaucrat by appearance. But those wonderful rolling "r"s in his speach. He had read the list correspondences well and understood my love of unrefined sea salt. To my great suprise he had brought a couple kilos of unrefined sea salt from Colima, Mexico. I fancy I'm a good judge of salt, and this was not only whiter than what comes to me from the oceans of Korea or France, it was of the best flavor. Whatever they are doing in Colima they should sell to the world. We need this kind of salt. Unrefined sea salt, unlike the refined stuff, never causes sodium toxic problems in the blood and nerves because it contains sufficient magnesium, pottassium, etc. to balance things out. So for you salt cravers who are watching your sodium, please use unrefined sea salt. Maybe you can't get Guilermo's Colima variety (yet. It sure is good!). If you look you will find something. Please, if you value your health, eat nothing but unrefined sea salt. There IS a salt, unrefined, out of Utah. It is called REAL SALT. I think it is very good too. Because it is unrefined. Salt is easy to refine, and once refined it granulates easily and is the standard today. But it is another of those wrongheaded notions like white sugar, white flour and white grease. Wrongheaded. (Thought I had already sent this!) HL Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 10:27:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21987 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:27:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28262; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:22:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28150 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:21:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-28.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.61]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA06869 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <380F21D4.DA5C6799@ap.net> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:23:16 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics - good news re wine References: <0.4dd9b570.254020f7@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2076 Hi Hilary: Out here in California we have an activist group called Californians for Alternatives to Toxics, CATS for short with headquarters in Arcata URL: http://www.reninet.com/ catz/me thyllink.htm In 1997 they published a scientific survey detailing the substances commonly used in vinyards to raise wine grapes. To summarize, vineyard managers use no rhyme or reason in the amount of proven toxic substances [carcinogenic] that they use on wine grapes. It starts out wth fumigating the ground with methyl bromide and gets worse. You might consider contacting these folks and getting a copy of this report. The truly WIERD thing is paying $125 a bottle for produce grown in purposely poisoned ground. I'm certain Greg Willis will be happy to point out that BD will do it better and be less expensive per acre. Journalists will no doubt find drinking wine from standard vineyards WACKY after a few quotes from this report. Good Luck :o), David i. HILAWRIGHT@aol.com wrote: > Dan writes about Anne-Claude Leflaive's wines achieving 90-95 from Robert > Parker. > > There is some good news here. Her wines are great, and she is not alone. > > Both Nicolas Joly (who wrote Wine from Sky to Earth) and Domaine Huet in the > Loire, and also Madame Leroy of Domaine Leroy in Burgundy, command high > prices for their biodynamic wines and are often profiled by writers looking > for a good story. And while journalists know how to make BD sound wacky, they > invariably find themselves forced to end their articles by conceding that 'it > may be weird but it somehow produces excellent wine.' > > In the UK it may even be true that people interested in food and wine have > more chance to discover BD through wine than through food. (One major > supermarket sells Demeter-certified meat, but doesn't identify it as > 'biodynamic' on the label). I have a book coming out there in March 2000, on > organic and biodynamic wine, that will make another small contribution to > that awareness. > > The big story for me is that in France there are more and more BD conversions > happening, and it's young, top-notch producers who are leading the charge. > People like Olivier Humbrecht of Zind-Humbrecht in Alsace, who (if memory > serves) produced the first wine ever to be rated 100/100 by Robert Parker. > > Michel Chapoutier in the Rhone has co-founded with many of the above a new > biodynamic wine certifying body, 'Biodyvin', which promises to certify on the > basis of quality - a big step forward. > > I'd really like to know how this trend is reflected in other wine-producing > areas. > Does anyone have any thoughts? > > I hope to visit British Columbia in November. > Are there still any winemakers from BC on the list? > > Regards > Hilary From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 11:11:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23279 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02601; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:07:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov (megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov [199.133.133.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02252 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [199.133.131.5] (marvel.salinas.ars.usda.gov [199.133.131.5]) by megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id IAA10788 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910211509.IAA10788@megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:15:09 -0700 Subject: BD strawberries (was Re: RE Biodynamics) From: "Joel Stryker" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2077 I just want to let everyone know that there are some "mainstream" scientists interested in biodynamic agriculture. Granted, I don't think the USDA-ARS as an organization has much to say about BD agriculture, but I don't pretend to speak for the entire organization. I am a research technician with a personal interest, that I may be able to translate into my research. I am a newcomer to the list, and to biodynamics in general, but I do see a great potential for its use and I want to learn much more about it. Specifically, I am doing research on organic production methods for strawberries, which are one of the most highly poisoned crops in modern agriculture. Does anyone know of any farms or fields growing strawberries biodynamically? I am interested in seeing how it's done, and potentially in conducting some experiments on those fields, if that is geographically feasible. Thanks, Joel Stryker -- USDA-ARS Salinas, CA phone: (831)755-2822 fax: (831)755-2814 > the form of "That's preposterous and I won't listen to another word or give > it any further consideration." then all such skepticism amounts to is > closed mindedness. If the skepticism does not simply take such a method on > faith and think in a smarmy, feel-good way that it's magic there's the > possible good side--investigation. If more folks who go into BD were to > investigate and find out WHY such procedures work then they could improve > on them and get better and better results with the methods. Then the > problem that it is possible to apply preparations poorly and get mediocre > or little results can be overcome. And believe me if BD is to ever become > mainstream this is what has to happen. Quite naturally I hope your > skepticism is strong and healthy. And do come visit if you have a chance. > One thing you can't fake is the great taste of these vegetables. > > Best, > Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 12:05:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24347 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:05:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08564; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08304 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.18.161]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:00:29 +0100 Message-ID: <009801bf1bdd$882f8040$a1122cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: Re: A little Humor Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:52:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2078 Hugh - the late Gerard Hoffnung, writer of humorous text and music (for example, orchestral pieces featuring vacuum cleaners and other household 'instruments'), originally presented the bricklayer's account of accumulated injuries at the Oxford Union. It has been broadcast on BBC radio on numerous occasions and is included in a BBC audio cassette (along with some of Hoffnung's zany music) which I've just searched for and, predictably, can't immediately find. I'll post you the details, if interested, when I've blown away enough dust to be able to read the titles. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 12:32:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24849 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:32:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11513; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:29:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11326 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:28:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hIFOa19934 (4419) for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.315ea447.25409951@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:29:05 EDT Subject: Re: indigo kids? To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2079 Dear Lynne, This was actually a private question which slipped onto the BDNOW page. It is not anything to do with BD, but rather with education. I don't know more about it than you, but what I do know is that many children these days are much more awake and aware than ever before (and definitely human). The four year old mentioned was my granddaughter and she certainly did not "wander" in. She made sure to get her parent's ok before coming with us from Ireland to the US. Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 12:32:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24864 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:32:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11466; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:29:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11085 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.186]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991021163051.GCHF45175.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 05:30:52 +1300 Message-ID: <380F3F96.1283@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 05:30:14 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Glenns comments Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2080 HL wrote > Sooner or later that "hundredth monkey" will see the light and then > BD will be launched into the mainstream. I'd like to see that happen in my > lifetime. Take heart Hugh for better or for worse, every man and his dog over here is coming out as THE organic expert. From the worst fertiliser company to the Dept of Ag, they have the good stuff for those wanting to changeover. Dispite what the politicianss and scientists will have us believe, this GE thing has spooked everyone and the rush is on to go organic, and BD is not far behind. A tad scarey after all those years of being a torch bearer, to suddenly be lost in the rush, not to mention folks starving their soils and applying hardwood sawdust as compost, yet good to see the stampede has begun. Like any stampede the sense of community does not really exist, while competition and a hearty spirit of DIY suggests there are a few potholes ahead for many. Which brings me back to the split side of this thread. As much as I see splits as a natural part of human growth, I have a basic dislike of them, due to the competition, us/them, waste of resources side effects. All of these of course appear to be NATURAL human traits and occur within organisations as much as out of them, so it is probably best to just acknowledge them and get on with it really. Hummmmm Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 12:59:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25331 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:59:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14368; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:56:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from commando.mobilixnet.dk ([195.78.82.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14161 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:54:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from carol (dialin-107-143.mobilixnet.dk [212.97.200.143]) by commando.mobilixnet.dk (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA87670 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:55:07 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991021181142.008f1100@mail.mobilixnet.dk> X-Sender: mob34587@mail.mobilixnet.dk (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:11:42 +0200 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Carol Jensen Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics In-Reply-To: References: <380A9E10.4918@xtra.co.nz> <006d01bf18ed$317796e0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2081 At 18:06 20-10-1999 -0500, you wrote: Perhaps that dual article should be reprinted in other BD journals. I >hope someone has copies. At the moment I don't. Hugh, if you find copies and if you have a web site, I do hope you or someone else will publish them on the net! Carol ----------------------------------- Webmasters! You need help! Read my article "Grammar for Webmasters" at ------------------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 13:58:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26389 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21195; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:54:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA20639 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:50:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.27] (pm3shep1-163-27.intrepid.net [209.190.163.27]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23473 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:51:24 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 01:53:53 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Back Again + WOOFERS Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2082 HUGH LOVEL wrote: > Salt is easy to refine, and once refined it granulates easily >and is the standard today. But it is another of those wrongheaded notions >like white sugar, white flour and white grease. Wrongheaded. Hugh - You sort of summed up a strong difference between a whole foods house and other houses that came to a harsh focus when we had two older women WOOFERS who showed up to spend a week on the farm after reading a book called 'Finding your FREE Vacation.' (WOOFING, if done properly, is far from a free vacation, btw!) Being city women, it was evident that that they were having a hard time adjusting to the apparent poverty of farm life. On the second morning they were here they were plenty hungry and we offered them Demeter oats with Demeter yogurt for breakfast. Although there was honey on the table, one of them asked for sugar, something they had apparently been Jonseing for since they arrived. Maura broke the news to them: "I'm sorry, we haven't had sugar in our kitchen for almost 20 years." We went about our chores and when we came back to the kitchen the woofers were sort of messing sadly with their spoons on the top layer of their uneaten porridge. 'Why haven't you eaten your oats?' 'Salt' came back the sad answer. Had I again forgotten to salt the oats? But then it came, from the great-grandmother WOOFER, "I got your sugar bowl down from the back of the stove when you were out and we each put several teaspoonfuls on our cereal. but it turns out it's not sugar its SALT!' And, in fact, it was LIMA salt, the macrobiotic quality sea salt from France. For over a decade we've kept some for cooking on the back of the stove in an unused sugar bowl. To the inexperienced, the coarse fluffiness of the unprocessed sea salt seemed to be just like processed cane sugar. Like sneaky kids, the WOOFERS loaded their bowls. -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 14:56:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27906 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28393; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27893 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d150.infoserve.net [199.175.157.150]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA29744 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Back Again + WOOFERS Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:56:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2083 Allan, why do many people not use sugar? I noticed that this idea cross all sorts of backgrounds, not just anthros. M. -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 11:07 AM Subject: Re: Back Again + WOOFERS >HUGH LOVEL wrote: > > >> Salt is easy to refine, and once refined it granulates easily >>and is the standard today. But it is another of those wrongheaded notions >>like white sugar, white flour and white grease. Wrongheaded. > >Hugh - > >You sort of summed up a strong difference between a whole foods house and >other houses that came to a harsh focus when we had two older women WOOFERS >who showed up to spend a week on the farm after reading a book called >'Finding your FREE Vacation.' (WOOFING, if done properly, is far from a >free vacation, btw!) > >Being city women, it was evident that that they were having a hard time >adjusting to the apparent poverty of farm life. On the second morning they >were here they were plenty hungry and we offered them Demeter oats with >Demeter yogurt for breakfast. Although there was honey on the table, one >of them asked for sugar, something they had apparently been Jonseing for >since they arrived. Maura broke the news to them: "I'm sorry, we haven't >had sugar in our kitchen for almost 20 years." > >We went about our chores and when we came back to the kitchen the woofers >were sort of messing sadly with their spoons on the top layer of their >uneaten porridge. 'Why haven't you eaten your oats?' 'Salt' came back the >sad answer. Had I again forgotten to salt the oats? But then it came, from >the great-grandmother WOOFER, "I got your sugar bowl down from the back of >the stove when you were out and we each put several teaspoonfuls on our >cereal. but it turns out it's not sugar its SALT!' > >And, in fact, it was LIMA salt, the macrobiotic quality sea salt from >France. For over a decade we've kept some for cooking on the back of the >stove in an unused sugar bowl. To the inexperienced, the coarse fluffiness >of the unprocessed sea salt seemed to be just like processed cane sugar. >Like sneaky kids, the WOOFERS loaded their bowls. > >-Allan >igg@igg.com > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 15:24:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28356 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:24:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01837; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:20:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01478 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.171] ("port 2055"@[148.233.78.171]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FJY0039KX75JW@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:38:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:46:30 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Back Again In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id PAA01489 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2084 >I wanted to acknowledge something special. I finally met Guilermo Romero >Ibarollo at Allan's conference. He could have been a Canadian bureaucrat by >appearance. But those wonderful rolling "r"s in his speach. He had read the >list correspondences well and understood my love of unrefined sea salt. To >my great suprise he had brought a couple kilos of unrefined sea salt from >Colima, Mexico. I fancy I'm a good judge of salt, and this was not only >whiter than what comes to me from the oceans of Korea or France, it was of >the best flavor. Whatever they are doing in Colima they should sell to the >world. We need this kind of salt. Unrefined sea salt, unlike the refined >stuff, never causes sodium toxic problems in the blood and nerves because >it contains sufficient magnesium, pottassium, etc. to balance things out. >So for you salt cravers who are watching your sodium, please use unrefined >sea salt. Maybe you can't get Guilermo's Colima variety (yet. It sure is >good!). Hi Hugh: I am glad you liked the salt, I also think it is very good. It comes from the Cuyutlan sea lagoon, just south of Manzanillo. It's production is very basic, once they have concentrated salt (from terraces they built right in the lagoon) they have this elevated wood structure and on top they place a "petate", which acts as a filter, they let the sun do the rest. Nothing more than that. I also liked your heavy southern accent and the peculiar laughter, what a trade mark !., but do really have to compare me with a Canadian bureaucrat, I have nothing against canadians, but bureaucrat!. Given the prices you are paying for unrefined salt up there, I suggested Andy R (from this list) that we should start an export-import salt business. what do you say Andy? Cheers (ps I trade salt for your great tasting garlic any day) Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 15:46:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28796 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:46:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04722; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:43:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04316 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:40:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.171] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.171]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FJY0094FYLI9P@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:08:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:16:47 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Back Again + WOOFERS In-reply-to: <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id PAA04323 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2085 > Allan, why do many people not use sugar? I noticed that this idea cross >all sorts of backgrounds, not just anthros. M. I also have asked myself that question Michael. I supose there is nothing wrong with the sugar cane or the beets themselves, but the problem is in the refining process. In terms of alternative eating/diet traditions, I have seen that, for example, fruit juices are not recommended because you loose other substances in the extraction and the digestion-absortion of its sugars (maily fructose) is too fast, which produces peaks in the glucose blood levels. I supose that is one of the reasons most "alternative" people tend to shy away from concentrated sweetners, including honey. I have great appreciation for a kind of unrefined sugar; "piloncillo", which is nothing else than raw sugar cane juice cooked until it becames solid. It tastes great, something like molases combined with brown sugar. Piloncillo is by the way another unknown Mexican/tropical product for which I see great export potential. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 16:23:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29996 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:23:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA08989; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:19:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08338 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:15:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.31] (r-66.80.alltel.net [166.102.66.80]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id PAB25334 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:16:35 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:16:35 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Back Again Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2086 > >Hi Hugh: > >I am glad you liked the salt, I also think it is very good. It comes from >the Cuyutlan sea lagoon, just south of Manzanillo. It's production is >very basic, once they have concentrated salt (from terraces they built >right in the lagoon) they have this elevated wood structure and on top >they place a "petate", which acts as a filter, they let the sun do the >rest. Nothing more than that. > >I also liked your heavy southern accent and the peculiar laughter, what a >trade mark !., but do really have to compare me with a Canadian >bureaucrat, I have nothing against canadians, but bureaucrat!. > >Given the prices you are paying for unrefined salt up there, I suggested >Andy R (from this list) that we should start an export-import salt >business. what do you say Andy? > >Cheers > >(ps I trade salt for your great tasting garlic any day) > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Dear Guillermo, Canadian bureaucrat? You may as well admit that you were a good bit more formally dressed (maybe like a government worker) than I was with my jeans and colored shirt. But I meant no offense. What I DID mean that one cannot judge a book by its cover. I believe almost everyone on this list knows you are neither a Canadian nor a bureaucrat. Best wishes, Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 16:31:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00149 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:31:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA10376; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09771 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:24:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.31] (r-66.80.alltel.net [166.102.66.80]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id PAA14082 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:25:10 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:25:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Back Again + WOOFERS Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2087 >> Allan, why do many people not use sugar? I noticed that this idea cross >>all sorts of backgrounds, not just anthros. M. > >I also have asked myself that question Michael. I supose there is nothing >wrong with the sugar cane or the beets themselves, but the problem is in >the refining process. > >In terms of alternative eating/diet traditions, I have seen that, for >example, fruit juices are not recommended because you loose other >substances in the extraction and the digestion-absortion of its sugars >(maily fructose) is too fast, which produces peaks in the glucose blood >levels. I supose that is one of the reasons most "alternative" people >tend to shy away from concentrated sweetners, including honey. > >I have great appreciation for a kind of unrefined sugar; "piloncillo", >which is nothing else than raw sugar cane juice cooked until it becames >solid. It tastes great, something like molases combined with brown sugar. >Piloncillo is by the way another unknown Mexican/tropical product for >which I see great export potential. > >Regards > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Dear Readers, Actually there is a big difference between using honey and using sugars, even unrefined sugars or even molasses such as cane or beet or around here sorghum molasses. Honey contains the most refined essences of the plant that have been sent to the blossom by the upstreaming silica forces. It is concentrated silica force, enhanced by the digestive (egoic) activity of the bees. Interestingly is is this silica force that is required to carry lime (calcium, magnesium) to their greatest expression in our bodies, the teeth and bones. If you want strong bones and want to av oid osteoporosis in later years, eat honey. Then you'll get the calcium to go all the way to depositing in the bones instead of depositing (in atherosclerotic plaque) in the arteries and hardening them. So eating honey instead of sugar is not a matter of indifference. It's really the way to get the best of the silica forces. This goes to show that what one does not know does indeed hurt. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 16:36:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00283 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:36:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA10981; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:33:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10464 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.013DBF80@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:30:03 -0400 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 21 Oct 99 16:30:03 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 21 Oct 99 16:29:37 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:29:30 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: sugars Priority: normal References: <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2088 > In terms of alternative eating/diet traditions, I have seen that, for example, fruit juices are not recommended because you loose other substances in the extraction and the digestion-absortion of its> > I have great appreciation for a kind of unrefined sugar; "piloncillo", which is nothing else than raw sugar cane juice cooked until it becames solid. It tastes great, something like molases combined> > Regards Guillermo, What is the difference between true brown sugar (sugar with the molasses left in) and piloncillo (except for the shape)? Maybe my taste buds aren't very refined, but it seemed the same to me. (Btw, you can find the brown sugar cones called piloncillo in most stores here which cater to Mexican consumers.) And would "piloncillo" be different from "azucar cremada" (which also seems like brown sugar to me)? Just curious. Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 16:36:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00294 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11091; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:33:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10752 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d142.infoserve.net [199.175.157.142]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA06852 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000d01bf1c04$4023d400$8e9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Back Again Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:38:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2089 What do American beuracrats wear? Are they different from Canadian ones, other than being meaner negotiators? M. -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Lovel To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 1:30 PM Subject: Re: Back Again > >> >>Hi Hugh: >> >>I am glad you liked the salt, I also think it is very good. It comes from >>the Cuyutlan sea lagoon, just south of Manzanillo. It's production is >>very basic, once they have concentrated salt (from terraces they built >>right in the lagoon) they have this elevated wood structure and on top >>they place a "petate", which acts as a filter, they let the sun do the >>rest. Nothing more than that. >> >>I also liked your heavy southern accent and the peculiar laughter, what a >>trade mark !., but do really have to compare me with a Canadian >>bureaucrat, I have nothing against canadians, but bureaucrat!. >> >>Given the prices you are paying for unrefined salt up there, I suggested >>Andy R (from this list) that we should start an export-import salt >>business. what do you say Andy? >> >>Cheers >> >>(ps I trade salt for your great tasting garlic any day) >> >>Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >>Comala, Colima, MEXICO >> > >Dear Guillermo, > >Canadian bureaucrat? You may as well admit that you were a good bit more >formally dressed (maybe like a government worker) than I was with my jeans >and colored shirt. But I meant no offense. What I DID mean that one cannot >judge a book by its cover. I believe almost everyone on this list knows you >are neither a Canadian nor a bureaucrat. > >Best wishes, >Hugh > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 19:27:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02751 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:27:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29677; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:23:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA29615 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:23:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.154] ("port 2049"@[148.233.78.154]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FJZ008JK8FHSO@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:40:44 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:41:35 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Back Again In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id TAA29617 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2090 >Dear Guillermo, > >Canadian bureaucrat? You may as well admit that you were a good bit more >formally dressed (maybe like a government worker) than I was with my jeans >and colored shirt. But I meant no offense. What I DID mean that one cannot >judge a book by its cover. I believe almost everyone on this list knows you >are neither a Canadian nor a bureaucrat. > >Best wishes, >Hugh Very perceptive Hugh: What happened is that I had to use clothing that I used to wear in Mex City, where I used to be indeed some sort of a bureaucrat. Since I now live in a tropical climate, where you normally wear shorts, T shirts and huaraches, I had nothing else to take to colder climates, other than my bureacratic clothes. The funny thing about this is that I took a leather jacket that before the conference, had been hanging in a humid closet for a at least 5 years. The molds in the jacket were so bad, that it induced from both Allan and me a terrible allergic response while traveling in his truck with the windows up. The jacket ended up in the truck's bed for the remaining of the trip, and now it is back in the old closet until next year, when I will take it again for a visit to Allan's. No offense ever taken, on the contrary. Cheers Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 19:27:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02759 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29716; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:24:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA29618 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:23:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.154] ("port 2049"@[148.233.78.154]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FJZ008JK8FHSO@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:40:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:39:21 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: sugars In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id TAA29624 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2091 >Guillermo, >What is the difference between true brown sugar (sugar with the >molasses left in) and piloncillo (except for the shape)? Maybe my >taste buds aren't very refined, but it seemed the same to me. (Btw, >you can find the brown sugar cones called piloncillo in most stores >here which cater to Mexican consumers.) And would "piloncillo" be >different from "azucar cremada" (which also seems like brown >sugar to me)? Just curious. >Anita Dear Anita I really do not know much about the sugar industry Anita, but it seems to me that brown sugar, if it comes as crystals has no molasses in it. Molasses are defined as the uncrystalized sugars. What I understand is that brown sugar is less refined and it is unbleached than white sugar. Piloncillo has most everything in it, (even some of the dirt and tiny parts of the crushed cane), the molasses are there and that makes piloncillo not as hard as caramelized sugars. Which is another posibility for the difference in flavor, Pilloncillo is cooked extensivelly which brings about its brown dark color and a strong caramell flavor. I have no clue as to what is azucar cremada, other than Creme Chantilly. Any other ideas ? regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 19:31:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02831 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:31:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00132; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:28:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA29926 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:26:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.81.153]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991021231820.KYYH45175.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:18:20 +1300 Message-ID: <380F9F15.52B8@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:17:41 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics References: <380A9E10.4918@xtra.co.nz> <006d01bf18ed$317796e0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> <3.0.5.32.19991021181142.008f1100@mail.mobilixnet.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2092 We would be more than happy to pu8blish them in our newsletter Hugh Glen A. Carol Jensen wrote: > > At 18:06 20-10-1999 -0500, you wrote: > Perhaps that dual article should be reprinted in other BD journals. I > >hope someone has copies. At the moment I don't. > > Hugh, if you find copies and if you have a web site, I do hope you or someone else will publish them on the net! > > Carol > ----------------------------------- > Webmasters! You need help! Read my > article "Grammar for Webmasters" at > ------------------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 19:45:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02986 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:45:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01363; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:41:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cobalt3-fe.global.net.uk (cobalt3-fe.global.net.uk [195.147.250.163]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00937 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2s05a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.229.211] helo=compaq) by cobalt3-fe.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11eRmO-0001Dc-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:37:57 -0700 Message-ID: <380FA2A7.6326@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 00:32:55 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: sugars References: <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2093 Guillermo Romero wrote: > > >Guillermo, > >What is the difference between true brown sugar (sugar with the > >molasses left in) and piloncillo (except for the shape)? Maybe my > >taste buds aren't very refined, but it seemed the same to me. (Btw, > >you can find the brown sugar cones called piloncillo in most stores > >here which cater to Mexican consumers.) And would "piloncillo" be > >different from "azucar cremada" (which also seems like brown > >sugar to me)? Just curious. > >Anita > > Dear Anita > > I really do not know much about the sugar industry Anita, but it seems to me that brown sugar, if it comes as crystals has no molasses in it. Molasses are defined as the uncrystalized sugars. What I understand is that brown sugar is less refined and it is unbleached than white sugar. > > Piloncillo has most everything in it, (even some of the dirt and tiny parts of the crushed cane), the molasses are there and that makes piloncillo not as hard as caramelized sugars. Which is another posibility for the difference in flavor, Pilloncillo is cooked extensivelly which brings about its brown dark color and a strong caramell flavor. > > I have no clue as to what is azucar cremada, other than Creme Chantilly. > > Any other ideas ? > > regards > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Yes the best thing it seems coming out of Mexico at the moment is Organic Agave Juice from a well known cacti used to flavour tequilla it is appearing in Jams,Spreads,cakes,you name it its in it,but the best sweetener of all is stevia. Other sweeteners probably the healthiest are Organic Barley Malt, Organic Rice Syrup or Organic Maize Syrup followed closely by Amasake. As regards Honey organic or otherwise its 98% sugar and is made by bees for bees.however I look at myself I can't see much likeness to a bee Rex Tyler -- ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 20:07:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03174 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03473; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:04:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03094 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.31] (r-66.128.alltel.net [166.102.66.128]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id TAA10337 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:01:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:01:15 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: uai@alltel.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <380F9F15.52B8@xtra.co.nz> References: <380A9E10.4918@xtra.co.nz> <006d01bf18ed$317796e0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> <3.0.5.32.19991021181142.008f1100@mail.mobilixnet.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2094 >We would be more than happy to pu8blish them in our newsletter Hugh > >Glen A. > > >Carol Jensen wrote: >> >> At 18:06 20-10-1999 -0500, you wrote: >> Perhaps that dual article should be reprinted in other BD journals. I >> >hope someone has copies. At the moment I don't. >> >> Hugh, if you find copies and if you have a web site, I do hope you or >>someone else will publish them on the net! >> >> Carol >> ----------------------------------- >> Webmasters! You need help! Read my >> article "Grammar for Webmasters" at >> ------------------------------------ Allan may have copies. Sorry but I don't. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 21:49:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04584 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:49:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09318; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:32:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08768 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:22:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.154] ("port 2054"@[148.233.78.194]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FJZ004X2DTMG6@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:37:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:45:28 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: sugars In-reply-to: <380FA2A7.6326@globalnet.co.uk> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id VAA08774 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2095 >Yes the best thing it seems coming out of Mexico at the moment is >Organic Agave Juice from a well known cacti used to flavour tequilla >it is appearing in Jams,Spreads,cakes,you name it its in it,but the best >sweetener of all is stevia. > >Other sweeteners probably the healthiest are Organic Barley Malt, >Organic Rice Syrup or Organic Maize Syrup followed closely by Amasake. > >As regards Honey organic or otherwise its 98% sugar and is made by bees >for bees.however I look at myself I can't see much likeness to a bee > >Rex Tyler >-- Hi Rex: The blue agave juice, after it is hydrolized using acid or enzymes, it is indeed a pleasent tasting syrup. But have very few physical properties to compete with sugar. For one thing it does not form stable crystals. The juice before it is hydrolized it is being marketed as a source of inulin, a substance that suposedly help your beneficial instestinal flora. Inulin is a very complex oligosacharide, so be carefull, it is only meant to be used in small quantities, otherwise it produces great instestinal discomfort due to heavy fermentation. Agave is not used to flavor tequila, the fermented and distilled juice of the plant (which I believe is not formally a cacti) is tequila. Agave is Tequila and you should see what a experience is to see the endless rows of this majestic blue plant in the land. It is quite a beautyfull thing. I do not drink so I do not know much about Tequila, but a friend of ours claims that it is the only liquor that does not give him a headache. Cheers (ps after today probably I will start my own business selling sea salt, piloncillo, agave syrup and inulin to the BD-Now community, not bad ehh ?) Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 22:31:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA05350 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:31:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14713; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub1.une.edu.au (postfix@[129.180.1.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12216 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:11:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Enveng-dforster.une.edu.au (enveng-dforster.une.edu.au [129.180.135.50]) by mailhub1.une.edu.au (Postfix) with SMTP id AAE445E5C; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:11:57 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991022121256.007e5c40@metz.une.edu.au> X-Sender: dforster@metz.une.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:12:56 +1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dianne Forster Subject: Mexican products In-Reply-To: References: <380FA2A7.6326@globalnet.co.uk> <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2096 Hello Guillermo, Sounds like great foodstuffs you have in your country. If you ever want to export it to Australia, let me know. Deanna From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Oct 21 22:45:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA05424 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16118; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:41:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15987 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:40:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop2.igc.org (user-33qth4a.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.196.138]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA11589 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:41:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <380FDBEF.91F2AD30@pop2.igc.org> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:37:20 -0800 From: Shannan and James Johnson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Alternative Pest Control References: <0.6b77fc44.25406f3f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2097 Dear Dan, I contacted weed specialist, Tom Lanini, at UC Davis here in California and he told me of the trial he was involved in back in the 80's to demonstrate the effectiveness of solar flaming. I'll summarize below. The weeds are annuals not perennials. In 1988 a team of researchers in Wyoming conducted an experiment with the objective being to investigate a curved linear Fresnel lens to focus solar energy as an approach for weed control. Fresnel lenses are attractive as a possible weed control method because they rely directly upon energy from the sun and would have minimal long-term environmental impact. The main objective of the study was to determine minimum exposure time required to control monocot and dicot weed species. A 3 foot by 5 foot Fresnel lens focusing solar radiation on a dry soil surface with an exposure time of 1 second at 290 degrees C resulted in 100% control of redroot pigweed. Control was reduced on a moist compared to a dry soil surface. Estimates of lens cost of about $25/m2 makes the system seem economically feasible. It is envisioned that a lens or a series of lenses could be configured to track the sun and be moved mechanically across a field. (Johnson, D.W. et. Al. 1989. Response of Monocot and dicot weed species to Fresnel lens concentrated solar radiation. Weed Science 1989. 37:797-801) Regards, James LMvine@aol.com wrote: > Hugh, James, Cheryl, et al - As a relatively new BD practitioner, I would > like to know more about the process and successes for weed elimination. Is > there an explained cookbook approach or is it still shrouded in mystery. Is > there an article(s) on the net or a book that someone has used WITH SUCCESS? > > I notice that I have had less critter damage the last two years of using BD > but the damn weeds are a pain. > > Dan L, Long Mountain Vineyard > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 05:09:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA09027 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 05:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA11100; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 05:05:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA11007 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 05:02:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-94.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.94]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA25315 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:04:01 +1000 Message-ID: <010a01bf1c6c$11f55640$5e431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: indigo kids? Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:23:19 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2098 Dear Audrey and Guillermo, I thought that I put this on the BDNow list a while ago, but maybe I just sent it privately, but it is good that it has come up as I feel this is "an important issue whose time has come". The book, is "The Indigo Kids" "the new kids have arrived" by Lee Carroll and Jan Tober, Hay House. Pub in May 99. Steiner spoke of the change in children born after the 1970's that their brain would be different and that they would learn differently, and I have been watching this phenomena. My 4 kids were all born in the 70's and so I have always wondered what would manifest. We have noticed that a lot of these kids seem to have an inner wisdom, people say "they have been here before" and they react differently. They hate systems that have no purpose and in this book are referred to as "systems busters." This book just about lept off the shelf at me , and I was so thrilled that others had been noticing this phenomena. The authors, Lee and Tober asked many teachers and parents and therapists to write about their observations. Some parents spoke of instances when words of great wisdom came from the young children and often a great understanding of God and love. Because many of these kids see such hypocrisy around them, especially if their parents are not operating in truth and honestly of their own feelings, as well as their teachers and schooling systems, they become very angry, disruptive and refuse to learn the "normal " way and so they have been labelled as ADD and ADDH and often put on Ritalin to "calm them down". The authors and others recommended the Steiner Schools and Montessori system as being more supportive of these kids and their need to learn differently. It is said they don't really come into what they are here for until 28, so I am watching with fascination as my 27 year old son, who has left a career of being a trained Chef to go to University to become a teacher (at Steiner Schools). He is already taking over the class and got them all seeing that the State School education is missing out on so much and has them all thinking about the Waldorf methods of education.And his tutors are really encouraging him, which is great . The other thing we are noticing is that they are finding settling down to a career and life is difficult, they all want to go adventuring, pushing their bodies to the limits, like in white water rafting and canyoning, bungy jumping and orientation courses of self survival in the outback etc. We were thinking that maybe they realise that survival is going to be so important in the future that they are practising for it now! Some of these kids , feeling totally lost when none of the system works for them can have an awful time and even get to suicide, anorexia, drugs, alcohol etc to be heard. They can feel so lonely and have no friends they can talk about what they know. There is a story in the back of the book of such a kid and when I read it out to an Indigo kid I had recently met, she burst into tears - that was her story - she wasn't alone! So I feel that we have a job with us to find these kids and help them develop into what is their purpose on earth. And of course Biodynamics can catch them, as are we not working spiritually with the earth? Well worth getting the book, and sharing it around with your friends and teachers. They also have a web site but as I have lent the book to my son, I can't give it to you now. It might come up under Indigo Kids if you search. Best wishes, Cheryl. -----Original Message----- From: Audrey Malan To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, 21 October 1999 8:08 am Subject: Re: indigo kids? >Cheryl, Christine >I must have missed the original post that Christine is responding to - but >am also interested in the "indigo kids" - Anyone have more info., or web >site sources? Thank you, Audrey > >-----Original Message----- >From: Lilipoh@aol.com >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:21 AM >Subject: from Christine > > >>Dear Cheryl, >>Thank you for your post. Re Peter Proctor, he may be helpful with the next >>issue of LILIPOH with the question of animal parts. >>Another question: I am super intrigued by your mention of "indigo kids". We >>just had such a one with us for eight weeks, a four year old who simply >>decided she wanted to spend some time with us, and decided when it was time >>to go back home. Can you write me anything more about your experiences? >Could >>you imagine it as a letter to LILIPOH, or a small section in the Mother to >>Mother page? I think this is a topic that should be made conscious for many >>parents. >> >>Footnote: while our four year old was with us some Jehovah's Witnesses came >>by and said there would be resurrection of the bodies at the end, but in >the >>meantime when we died we were gone, and we certainly were nowhere before >>birth. Aine stood at the door next to me gazing at them in her conscious, >>interested and earnest way and I asked them whether they thought someone >like >>that could have gotten where she is after merely four years. >> >>Thanks and regards, >>Christine >> >> > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 08:55:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11002 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:55:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA19687; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:49:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA19571 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:47:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d140.infoserve.net [199.175.157.140]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA01891 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 05:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001101bf1c8c$aa371900$8c9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: sugars Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 05:54:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF1C51.E80A96C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2099 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF1C51.E80A96C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RS has talked about sugars. Of course, unrefined is much better. He = did not specify whether cane sugar is better than beet sugar, etc. But, = RS did mention a bible reference. The Israelites wandered in the desert = for 40 years until they found the land of "milk and honey". Milk for = the young and honey for the older people. i.e. Eartlhy substance for = the young (to incarnate) and Cosmic Wisdom for older folks. Honey being = a Sun-made substance can be thought of as Cosmic Love (see 9 lecs on = bees). Which brings me to my original point. It was not really that many = people omit sugar in their food, but, honey of often a good substitue. = Yet, many people, not just anthros. tend to unsweeten their food, = including cakes, etc. My real question is why? It goes beyond a matter = of taste. Cheers and have a good breakfast, Michael ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF1C51.E80A96C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
   RS has talked = about=20 sugars.  Of course, unrefined is much better.  He did not = specify=20 whether cane sugar is better than beet sugar, etc.  But, RS did = mention a=20 bible reference.  The Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 = years until=20 they found the land of "milk and honey".  Milk for the = young and=20 honey for the older people.  i.e. Eartlhy substance for the young = (to=20 incarnate) and Cosmic Wisdom for older folks.  Honey being a = Sun-made=20 substance can be thought of as Cosmic Love (see 9 lecs on=20 bees).
  Which brings me to = my original=20 point.  It was not really that many people omit sugar in their = food, but,=20 honey of often a good substitue. Yet, many people, not just anthros. = tend to=20 unsweeten their food, including cakes, etc.  My real question is = why? =20 It goes beyond a matter of taste. Cheers and have a good breakfast,=20 Michael
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF1C51.E80A96C0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 10:17:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12363 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:17:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26254; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:09:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rmx02.mail.com (rmx02.mail.com [165.251.32.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26179 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:08:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web10.pub01 (web10.pub01.mail.com [165.251.32.20]) by rmx02.mail.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA00419 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:10:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <385046525.940601405403.JavaMail.root@web10.pub01> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:10:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: indigo kids? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.161.18.152 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2100 Cheryl, my kids were born in the 80's. We haven't been landed with any labels, but they are both pretty bright and insightful. When my older boy was two, we took him to visit a fish hatchery nearby on the Salmon River. As we left, we were making our way through the parking lot to the car. He got a dreamy look on his face, looked up at the sky, and said, "Next time I will be a fish." It was my first indication of what it would be like to bring up a child who would come of age in the new millenium. He is presently learning Reiki and has, for some time, wanted to work with gem stones. Pam DeTray pamdetray@email.com ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 11:40:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13926 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05242; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04836 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:27:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.27] (pm3shep2-163-110.intrepid.net [209.190.163.110]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05161 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:28:35 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001101bf1c8c$aa371900$8c9dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:30:53 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: sugars Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2101 > RS has talked about sugars.  Of course, unrefined is much >better.  He did not specify whether cane sugar is better than beet >sugar, etc.  But, RS did mention a bible reference.  The >Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years until they found the land >of "milk and honey".  Milk for the young and honey for the older >people.  i.e. Eartlhy substance for the young (to incarnate) and >Cosmic Wisdom for older folks.  Honey being a Sun-made substance can >be thought of as Cosmic Love (see 9 lecs on bees). Which brings me to my >original point.  It was not really that many people omit sugar in >their food, but, honey of often a good substitue. Yet, many people, not >just anthros. tend to unsweeten their food, including cakes, etc.  >My real question is why?  It goes beyond a matter of taste. Cheers >and have a good breakfast, Michael I hope to have time to give you some more practical explanation for this, but for myself, there is a clear distinction between my spiritual sensitivity when I have removed simple sugars from my diet for 3 or more weeks and when I am having them routinely (I assume you are aware that almost EVERYTHING that you buy to eat from the industrial state contains refined sugars of some sort. it's almost as though we are being intentionally dosed by the factory food supply. Heaven's! Why would anyone want to interfere with our connection to the spiritual realm?) Michio Kushi, world leader of macrobiotics, puts it more precisely : "White sugar causes us to forget who we are and why we came here." From personal observation of my own case, I'd have to concur heartly with Mr. Kushi on this one. (I have an amusing anecdote about this saying, if anyone is interested.) In another way of speaking, white sugar does for subtle body processes what note taking did for your memory. Duffy's "Sugar Blues" is considered to be the ultimate account of sugar toxicity, addiction, and recovery. More later, but I know in Shepherdstown if we have a question like this, we always ask Rex Harrill. Maybe Rex will be good enough to give us more information about the counter-nutritive effects of simple and refined sugars. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 12:14:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14749 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:14:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08727; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:06:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rmx02.mail.com (rmx02.mail.com [165.251.32.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08370 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:03:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web11.mail.com (web11.pub01.mail.com [165.251.32.21]) by rmx02.mail.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA20019 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:04:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <381524024.940608274453.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:04:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: A few items Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.161.18.180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA08371 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2102 These few tidbits from today’s Slate Online jumped out at me in light of current discussion here. Harper's, November 1999 An article describes Big Sugar's stranglehold on public policy. Taxpayers support an irrigation system that facilitates Florida sugar growing but ruins the Everglades. Sugar barons have funneled $13 million to federal officeholders in the past eight years to block any cuts in sugar subsidies, which add $1.4 billion to consumers' food bills. A reflection on Woodstock '99 concludes that the concert was a slow-motion riot clogged with overflowing sewage, overpriced concessions, and acoustic atrocities. The crowd's attempt to raze the festival grounds symbolizes the collapse of communal bonds and boundaries. New York Times Magazine, Oct. 24 The cover story claims that the Reform Party's greatest asset is its pop-culture appeal. The piece echoes the familiar line that party members are a nut stew of United Nations haters, pot-legalizers, and campaign-finance reformers. Juicy detail: Jesse Ventura views Pat Buchanan as a shill sent by the traditional parties to sabotage the Reform effort. An article marvels at a "linguistic big bang" in Nicaragua, where deaf kids have invented their own language in a generation. Teachers at a school for the deaf were so inept that the assembled kids improvised a complex sign system, demonstrating that language is innate, but requires community to grow. This is the first time linguists have observed a language's birth. One creative sign: Daniel Ortega is identified by a tap on the wrist, a mockery of the ex-president's gauche Rolex. Time, Oct. 25 The cover story spends a week in a suburban St. Louis high school. Highlights: Twenty percent of students take psychopharmaceuticals, from Adderall to Zoloft. In lieu of metal detectors, "Safe Teams" of faculty and police target troubled students. The teams are assisted by 60 kids who snitch on their peers. "Deseg" students bused from the inner-city find class differences harder to bridge than racial ones. Some kids work 40 hours a week to make up the allowance gap. ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 14:30:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18458 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24797; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24580 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:21:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.135.71] (pm3bky1-135-71.intrepid.net [209.190.135.71]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06162 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:22:33 -0400 Message-Id: <199910221822.OAA06162@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: Re: indigo kids? Date: Fri, 22 Oct 99 13:31:38 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2103 Folks I don't know what moved Steiner to call for a shift in childrens' consciousness beginning with the '70s but my own astrological work led me to predict that new souls would be entering incarnation beginning in the early '90s, particularly after the Uranus/Neptune conjunctions of 1993 (the first since those two planets were both known to humanity.) This "leap of consciousness" would lead to beings whose primary mode of consciousness is intuitive rather than linear. The most important implication of this would be teaching methods leading to the burning question of who is capable of teaching these beings. While many people disdain astrology as "witchy," as a trained trends analyst (trained by the CIA) I've found over more than 30 years of practice that it works quite successfully as a predictive technique for socio-cultural trends. One interesting manifestation of this is in generational patterns. Using the cluster of outer planet placements as designators for generations there are some interesting shifts caused primarily by the irregular orbit of Pluto. What this translates to is that where the cluster of folks born from the teens through the '30s fall into a single generation as marked by Pluto, and the next generation is the Baby Boomers (1942-57 according to Pluto) after that the generations become much shorter. This fragmentation is one reason why the generations of souls born beginning in in the '60s seem so different from one another. The time frame will begin to lengthen again after the new millennium. Jeanne Mozier From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 14:38:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18601 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25863; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.hawaii.rr.com (smtp2.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25714 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phyl - 24.94.79.93 by smtp2.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:34:50 -1000 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991022082512.0250e5f0@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:26:36 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: Hunger Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7998483==_.ALT" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2104 --=====================_7998483==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear Friend, Perhaps this would merit forwarding to your email correspondents. Phyl ------------------------- The Hunger Site at the U.N. This is a really important Web site. All you do is click a button and somewhere in the world a hungry person gets a meal to eat at no cost to you. The food is paid for by corporate sponsors. All you do is go to the site and click. But, you're only allowed one click per day so spread the word to others. Visit the site, and pass the word. http://www.thehungersite.com ============================================== pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com Phyl Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. Waianae, HI 96792 808-696-1010 808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_7998483==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dear Friend,

Perhaps this would merit forwarding to your email correspondents.

Phyl

-------------------------

The Hunger Site at the U.N.

This is a really important Web site. All you do is click a button and
somewhere in the world a hungry person gets a meal to
eat at no cost to you. The food is paid for by corporate sponsors.
All you do is go to the site and click. But, you're only allowed
one click per day so spread the word to others. Visit the site,
and pass the word.

http://www.thehungersite.com


==============================================
pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com

Phyl Dwyer
Kahumana Farm
86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd.
Waianae, HI 96792

808-696-1010
808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_7998483==_.ALT-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 15:16:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19312 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:16:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00495; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:08:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA29138 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:00:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.161.21]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991022190721.YEBN3409531.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 08:07:21 +1300 Message-ID: <3810B558.5015@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 08:04:57 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: indigo kids Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2105 Below are the major outer planet transits for the period from 1970 to 1990 It is delivered in times roman 9 or 10pt and open your email page right up Basically Uranus into Libra 1969 Jupiter conjunct Neptune into Sagittarius 1971 Pluto into Libra 1971 Uranus into Scorpio in 1975 Uranus into Sagittarius 1982 Pluto into Scorpio 1984 Neptune into Capricorn 1984 Especially with the early 1970s children we are given a picture of Uranus and Pluto in Libra, most notably the higher octave potential of Libra, which I have long said is ruled by Persephone the planet which governs full enlightenment beyond the sharmanic (Spirit Man) stage of Pluto. RS refers to this stage on pg 84 of Occult science, as the "Solid Land" of the spiritlands. A state of consciousness where the forces standing behind material matter are perceieved while solid matter is seen as a vacuum. Creative visualisation is at a major stage of development, so for many of these children they need to be aware that whatever they focus on and imagine they will call into being very quickly. The 1977-79 children have a very fine Pluto, sextile Neptune, semi sextile Uranus not too dissimiliar to the arrangement these planets made in 1942. These are the cream of the crop IMHO. DYNAMIC REPORT Radix Chart: Transits 23 Oct 1999 - Natal Chart 23 Oct 1999, 07:01, NZT -12:00 Te Puke New Zealand 37S47 176E20 Geocentric Tropical Zodiac Placidus Houses, True Node Selection: Main Events 1998 Jup (12) Opp Sat (6) (X) Tr-Tr 9 Mar 1970 02:20 05°Sc32´ R 05°Ta32´ D Jup (12) Opp Sat (6) (X) Tr-Tr 19 Nov 1970 07:21 18°Sc34´ D 18°Ta34´ R Jup (12) Sxt Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 12 Jan 1971 23:47 29°Sc41´ D 29°Vi41´ R Jup (1) Cnj Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 1 Feb 1971 18:52 02°Sg47´ D 02°Sg47´ D Jup (1) Cnj Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 22 May 1971 16:57 01°Sg44´ R 01°Sg44´ R Sat (6) Tri Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 26 May 1971 10:13 27°Ta01´ D 27°Vi01´ R Jup (12) Opp Sat (6) (X) Tr-Tr 12 Jun 1971 13:17 29°Sc12´ R 29°Ta12´ D Sat (6) Opp Nep (12)(X) Tr-Tr 26 Jun 1971 11:06 00°Ge52´ D 00°Sg52´ R Jup (12) Sxt Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 5 Jul 1971 14:47 27°Sc11´ R 27°Vi11´ D Jup (12) Sxt Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 1 Sep 1971 12:00 28°Sc44´ D 28°Vi44´ D Jup (12) Cnj Nep (12)(X) Tr-Tr 16 Sep 1971 17:28 00°Sg37´ D 00°Sg37´ D Jup (1) Opp Sat (7) (X) Tr-Tr 17 Oct 1971 14:59 05°Sg50´ D 05°Ge50´ R Sat (7) Opp Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 28 Nov 1971 06:53 02°Ge53´ R 02°Sg53´ D Jup (1) Sxt Ura (12)(X) Tr-Tr 10 Dec 1971 15:43 17°Sg26´ D 17°Li26´ D Sat (7) Tri Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 10 Dec 1971 20:50 01°Ge52´ R 01°Li52´ D Jup (2) Sqr Plu (11)X) Tr-Tr 16 Feb 1972 00:47 01°Cp35´ D 01°Li35´ R Sat (6) Tri Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 11 Mar 1972 07:10 01°Ge00´ D 01°Li00´ R Sat (7) Opp Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 20 Apr 1972 06:47 04°Ge46´ D 04°Sg46´ R Sat (7) Tri Ura (11)(X) Tr-Tr 4 Jul 1972 20:20 14°Ge16´ D 14°Li16´ D Jup (2) Sqr Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 26 Jul 1972 10:51 29°Sg53´ R 29°Vi53´ D Jup (2) Sqr Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 19 Oct 1972 01:23 02°Cp47´ D 02°Li47´ D Sat (7) Tri Ura (12)(X) Tr-Tr 31 Oct 1972 08:26 19°Ge53´ R 19°Li53´ D Jup (3) Sqr Ura (12)(X) Tr-Tr 23 Jan 1973 22:50 23°Cp03´ D 23°Li03´ D Jup (3) Tri Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 12 Mar 1973 14:04 03°Aq24´ D 03°Li24´ R Jup (3) Sxt Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 3 Apr 1973 16:03 07°Aq16´ D 07°Sg16´ R Sat (7) Tri Ura (12)(X) Tr-Tr 12 May 1973 17:26 19°Ge47´ D 19°Li47´ R Jup (3) Sxt Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 20 Aug 1973 13:25 04°Aq40´ R 04°Sg40´ D Jup (3) Tri Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 3 Sep 1973 04:51 03°Aq21´ R 03°Li21´ D Sat (8) Sqr Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 15 Sep 1973 04:56 03°Cn48´ D 03°Li48´ D Sat (8) Sqr Plu (11)X) Tr-Tr 8 Oct 1973 01:21 04°Cn40´ D 04°Li40´ D Jup (3) Tri Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 17 Nov 1973 08:27 06°Aq02´ D 06°Li02´ D Jup (3) Sxt Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 23 Nov 1973 02:26 06°Aq54´ D 06°Sg54´ D Jup (4) Tri Ura (12)(X) Tr-Tr 26 Feb 1974 09:57 27°Aq30´ D 27°Li30´ R Jup (4) Tri Sat (8) (X) Tr-Tr 27 Feb 1974 14:14 27°Aq47´ D 27°Ge47´ D Jup (5) Sqr Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 20 Apr 1974 08:40 09°Pi14´ D 09°Sg14´ R Sat (8) Sqr Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 29 May 1974 01:10 04°Cn08´ D 04°Li08´ R Jup (5) Tri Sat (8) (X) Tr-Tr 22 Aug 1974 17:21 14°Pi46´ R 14°Cn46´ D Jup (4) Sqr Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 28 Oct 1974 01:25 08°Pi04´ R 08°Sg04´ D Jup (5) Sqr Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 2 Dec 1974 12:33 09°Pi21´ D 09°Sg21´ D Jup (5) Tri Sat (8) (X) Tr-Tr 11 Jan 1975 08:33 15°Pi04´ D 15°Cn04´ R Jup (5) Opp Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 18 Apr 1975 20:17 07°Ar21´ D 07°Li21´ R Jup (5) Tri Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 5 May 1975 09:51 11°Ar08´ D 11°Sg08´ R Jup (6) Sqr Sat (9) (X) Tr-Tr 4 Jun 1975 15:07 17°Ar19´ D 17°Cn19´ D Jup (6) Sqr Sat (9) (X) Tr-Tr 29 Jul 1975 14:47 24°Ar15´ D 24°Cn15´ D Sat (9) Sqr Ura (12)(X) Tr-Tr 5 Oct 1975 05:11 01°Le27´ D 01°Sc27´ D Sat (9) Sqr Ura (12)(X) Tr-Tr 18 Oct 1975 03:02 02°Le15´ D 02°Sc15´ D Jup (6) Sqr Sat (9) (X) Tr-Tr 10 Mar 1976 10:34 26°Ar19´ D 26°Cn19´ R Jup (6) Opp Ura (12)(X) Tr-Tr 18 Apr 1976 22:12 05°Ta24´ D 05°Sc24´ R Sat (9) Sqr Ura (12)(X) Tr-Tr 2 Jul 1976 15:09 03°Le04´ D 03°Sc04´ R Sat (10) Sxt Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 27 Aug 1976 15:03 10°Le10´ D 10°Li10´ D Sat (10) Tri Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 5 Sep 1976 15:27 11°Le15´ D 11°Sg15´ D Nep (1) Sxt Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 10 Oct 1976 20:14 11°Sg49´ D 11°Li49´ D Nep (1) Sxt Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 6 Dec 1976 08:55 13°Sg42´ D 13°Li42´ D Sat (10) Tri Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 13 Jan 1977 09:58 15°Le03´ R 15°Sg03´ D Sat (10) Sxt Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 24 Jan 1977 21:21 14°Le10´ R 14°Li10´ R Sat (10) Sqr Ura (12)(X) Tr-Tr 24 Feb 1977 12:10 11°Le45´ R 11°Sc45´ R Sat (10) Sqr Ura (12)(X) Tr-Tr 23 Apr 1977 10:11 10°Le05´ D 10°Sc05´ R Sat (10) Sxt Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 25 May 1977 09:51 11°Le36´ D 11°Li36´ R Jup (7) Tri Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 27 May 1977 00:20 11°Ge35´ D 11°Li35´ R Jup (7) Sxt Sat (10)(X) Tr-Tr 27 May 1977 21:46 11°Ge47´ D 11°Le47´ D Jup (7) Opp Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 9 Jun 1977 08:39 14°Ge41´ D 14°Sg41´ R Sat (10) Tri Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 24 Jun 1977 04:10 14°Le18´ D 14°Sg18´ R Nep (1) Sxt Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 26 Sep 1977 15:41 13°Sg38´ D 13°Li38´ D Nep (1) Sxt Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 26 Dec 1977 07:48 16°Sg31´ D 16°Li31´ D Jup (8) Sxt Sat (10)(X) Tr-Tr 29 Dec 1977 11:52 00°Cn16´ R 00°Vi16´ R Jup (8) Sxt Sat (10)(X) Tr-Tr 28 Feb 1978 14:09 26°Ge11´ D 26°Le11´ R Jup (8) Tri Ura (12)(X) Tr-Tr 18 Jun 1978 09:49 12°Cn47´ D 12°Sc47´ R Jup (8) Sqr Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 23 Jun 1978 10:53 13°Cn54´ D 13°Li54´ R Nep (1) Sxt Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 15 Sep 1978 21:58 15°Sg38´ D 15°Li38´ D Nep (1) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 11 Jan 1979 20:52 19°Sg11´ D 19°Li11´ D Jup (10) Sxt Plu (11)(X) Tr-Tr 29 Jul 1979 15:58 16°Le42´ D 16°Li42´ D Jup (10) Sqr Ura (12)(X) Tr-Tr 30 Jul 1979 16:04 16°Le56´ D 16°Sc56´ D Jup (10) Tri Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 4 Aug 1979 04:28 17°Le55´ D 17°Sg55´ R Nep (1) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 6 Sep 1979 11:03 17°Sg44´ D 17°Li44´ D Sat (11) Sqr Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 15 Sep 1979 07:59 17°Vi47´ D 17°Sg47´ D Sat (11) Sxt Ura (12)(X) Tr-Tr 17 Sep 1979 17:15 18°Vi05´ D 18°Sc05´ D Nep (1) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 27 Jan 1980 04:07 21°Sg46´ D 21°Li46´ R Sat (11) Sxt Ura (12)(X) Tr-Tr 18 Feb 1980 14:54 25°Vi31´ R 25°Sc31´ D Sat (11) Sqr Nep (1) X) Tr-Tr 27 Mar 1980 01:39 22°Vi40´ R 22°Sg40´ R Sat (11) Sqr Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 23 Jun 1980 06:16 21°Vi01´ D 21°Sg01´ R Sat (11) Sxt Ura (12)(X) Tr-Tr 5 Jul 1980 16:11 21°Vi46´ D 21°Sc46´ R Nep (1) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 27 Aug 1980 13:43 19°Sg55´ R 19°Li55´ D Jup (11) Sqr Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 10 Sep 1980 01:35 19°Vi55´ D 19°Sg55´ D Jup (11) Sxt Ura (12)(X) Tr-Tr 22 Sep 1980 23:22 22°Vi43´ D 22°Sc43´ D Jup (11) Cnj Sat (11)(X) Tr-Tr 1 Jan 1981 09:34 09°Li30´ D 09°Li30´ D Nep (1) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 9 Feb 1981 23:49 24°Sg17´ D 24°Li17´ R Jup (11) Cnj Sat (11)(X) Tr-Tr 5 Mar 1981 06:54 08°Li06´ R 08°Li06´ R Jup (11) Cnj Sat (11)(X) Tr-Tr 24 Jul 1981 16:16 04°Li56´ D 04°Li56´ D Nep (1) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 18 Aug 1981 19:20 22°Sg09´ R 22°Li09´ D Jup (12) Sxt Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 23 Oct 1981 21:48 22°Li45´ D 22°Sg45´ D Jup (12) Cnj Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 2 Nov 1981 20:20 24°Li53´ D 24°Li53´ D Nep (2) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 24 Feb 1982 20:16 26°Sg44´ D 26°Li44´ R Nep (1) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 9 Aug 1982 19:43 24°Sg28´ R 24°Li28´ D Sat (12) Sxt Nep (1) (X) Tr-Tr 15 Oct 1982 09:48 24°Li41´ D 24°Sg41´ D Sat (12) Cnj Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 8 Nov 1982 12:26 27°Li36´ D 27°Li36´ D Jup (1) Cnj Ura (1) (X) Tr-Tr 19 Feb 1983 10:47 08°Sg52´ D 08°Sg52´ D Nep (2) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 12 Mar 1983 04:23 29°Sg07´ D 29°Li07´ R Jup (1) Cnj Ura (1) (X) Tr-Tr 15 May 1983 08:26 07°Sg41´ R 07°Sg41´ R Sat (12) Sxt Nep (2) (X) Tr-Tr 8 Jun 1983 06:33 28°Li11´ R 28°Sg11´ R Sat (12) Sxt Nep (2) (X) Tr-Tr 22 Jun 1983 10:18 27°Li48´ R 27°Sg48´ R Nep (2) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 31 Jul 1983 05:06 26°Sg52´ R 26°Li52´ D Jup (1) Cnj Ura (1) (X) Tr-Tr 26 Sep 1983 01:57 05°Sg50´ D 05°Sg50´ D Jup (2) Cnj Nep (2) (X) Tr-Tr 20 Jan 1984 05:26 00°Cp01´ D 00°Cp01´ D Jup (2) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 30 Jan 1984 07:26 02°Cp08´ D 02°Sc08´ D Nep (2) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 27 Mar 1984 17:02 01°Cp25´ D 01°Sc25´ R Jup (2) Sxt Sat (12)(X) Tr-Tr 6 May 1984 03:59 12°Cp54´ R 12°Sc54´ R Jup (2) Sxt Sat (12)(X) Tr-Tr 8 Jun 1984 22:38 10°Cp39´ R 10°Sc39´ R Nep (2) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 19 Jul 1984 07:43 29°Sg20´ R 29°Li20´ D Jup (3) Sxt Sat (12)(X) Tr-Tr 23 Jan 1985 05:29 26°Cp32´ D 26°Sc32´ D Jup (3) Sqr Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 27 Feb 1985 21:11 04°Aq37´ D 04°Sc37´ R Nep (2) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 15 Apr 1985 23:57 03°Cp35´ R 03°Sc35´ R Jup (4) Sxt Ura (1) (X) Tr-Tr 22 May 1985 03:23 16°Aq39´ D 16°Sg39´ R Nep (2) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 5 Jul 1985 13:42 01°Cp56´ R 01°Sc56´ R Jup (4) Sxt Ura (1) (X) Tr-Tr 15 Jul 1985 09:20 14°Aq34´ R 14°Sg34´ R Jup (4) Sxt Ura (1) (X) Tr-Tr 9 Jan 1986 06:19 19°Aq57´ D 19°Sg57´ D Jup (4) Sxt Nep (2) (X) Tr-Tr 17 Mar 1986 01:05 05°Pi41´ D 05°Cp41´ D Jup (4) Tri Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 22 Mar 1986 07:35 06°Pi54´ D 06°Sc54´ R Jup (5) Sqr Sat (1) (X) Tr-Tr 3 Apr 1986 00:52 09°Pi32´ D 09°Sg32´ R Nep (2) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 17 May 1986 02:39 05°Cp25´ R 05°Sc25´ R Jup (5) Sqr Ura (1) (X) Tr-Tr 5 Jun 1986 12:16 20°Pi39´ D 20°Sg39´ R Nep (2) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 9 Jun 1986 23:08 04°Cp53´ R 04°Sc53´ R Jup (5) Sqr Ura (1) (X) Tr-Tr 7 Sep 1986 07:49 18°Pi24´ R 18°Sg24´ D Jup (5) Sqr Ura (1) (X) Tr-Tr 12 Feb 1987 19:57 25°Pi45´ D 25°Sg45´ D Jup (5) Sqr Nep (2) (X) Tr-Tr 5 Apr 1987 11:54 08°Ar00´ D 08°Cp00´ D Jup (6) Tri Sat (1) (X) Tr-Tr 24 May 1987 00:28 19°Ar05´ D 19°Sg05´ R Jup (6) Tri Ura (1) (X) Tr-Tr 22 Jun 1987 04:53 24°Ar31´ D 24°Sg31´ R Jup (6) Tri Ura (1) (X) Tr-Tr 25 Oct 1987 01:04 23°Ar52´ R 23°Sg52´ D Jup (6) Tri Sat (1) (X) Tr-Tr 22 Nov 1987 01:43 20°Ar44´ R 20°Sg44´ D Sat (2) Cnj Ura (2) (X) Tr-Tr 13 Feb 1988 12:50 29°Sg55´ D 29°Sg55´ D Jup (6) Tri Ura (2) (X) Tr-Tr 13 Mar 1988 00:18 00°Ta49´ D 00°Cp49´ D Jup (6) Tri Sat (2) (X) Tr-Tr 18 Mar 1988 22:58 02°Ta06´ D 02°Cp06´ D Jup (6) Tri Nep (2) (X) Tr-Tr 22 Apr 1988 21:59 10°Ta10´ D 10°Cp10´ R Jup (6) Opp Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 27 Apr 1988 17:34 11°Ta19´ D 11°Sc19´ R Sat (2) Cnj Ura (2) (X) Tr-Tr 27 Jun 1988 05:15 28°Sg47´ R 28°Sg47´ R Sat (2) Cnj Ura (2) (X) Tr-Tr 19 Oct 1988 01:25 27°Sg49´ D 27°Sg49´ D Sat (2) Cnj Nep (2) (X) Tr-Tr 3 Mar 1989 22:46 11°Cp55´ D 11°Cp55´ D Sat (2) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 2 May 1989 14:57 13°Cp52´ R 13°Sc52´ R Sat (2) Sxt Plu (12)(X) Tr-Tr 19 May 1989 12:30 13°Cp23´ R 13°Sc23´ R Sat (2) Cnj Nep (2) (X) Tr-Tr 24 Jun 1989 15:07 11°Cp14´ R 11°Cp14´ R Jup (8) Opp Ura (2) (X) Tr-Tr 9 Aug 1989 07:17 01°Cn45´ D 01°Cp45´ R Jup (8) Opp Sat (2) (X) Tr-Tr 11 Sep 1989 04:22 07°Cn18´ D 07°Cp18´ R Jup (8) Opp Nep (2) (X) Tr-Tr 1 Oct 1989 17:56 09°Cn38´ D 09°Cp38´ D Sat (2) Cnj Nep (2) (X) Tr-Tr 13 Nov 1989 23:37 10°Cp22´ D 10°Cp22´ D Jup (8) Opp Sat (2) (X) Tr-Tr 14 Nov 1989 18:20 10°Cn26´ R 10°Cp26´ D Jup (8) Opp Nep (2) (X) Tr-Tr 15 Nov 1989 08:46 10°Cn24´ R 10°Cp24´ D Jup (8) Opp Ura (2) (X) Tr-Tr 29 Dec 1989 17:43 05°Cn35´ R 05°Cp35´ D *** END REPORT *** From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 15:40:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20569 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:39:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02988; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.hawaii.rr.com (smtp2.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA02632 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:27:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phyl - 24.94.79.93 by smtp2.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:31:35 -1000 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991020123852.02508780@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:23:22 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: Re: LILIPOH with the question of animal parts In-Reply-To: <0.c373fdee.253f45ba@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_11402687==_.ALT" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2106 --=====================_11402687==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Thank you for your post. Re Peter Proctor, he may be helpful with the next >issue of LILIPOH with the question of animal parts. Dear Christine, I believe this is a pressing question of merit and deserves living with. I'm glad to hear you are working with it. Thanks. As I recall Peter talking about the BD work in India, there are actually special "grave" yards for cows. There are folks whose work (or service, as they refer to it in India) is to care for the dead cows. Presumably this would involve the injured as well. I do recall photos of horns gathered for the making of 500. Many of them were painted one color or another. The colors indicated political or social affiliation or stature (I don't quite remember) of the owner of the cow. Apparently there was a fellow who gave a fairly lucid reply to this question of using animal parts, to a couple of rather agitated vegen oriented folks, at the BD conferences in BC Canada a few weeks ago. It may be worth trying to "track" him down and see if he'd share his ideas with you. As I recall a friend telling me who was there, it had something to do with imbuing the soil and plant realm with astrality, thus our vegetable food would better have the forces to help humans evolve, which would not only mean evolving beyond eating animals, but eventually plants as well (presumably the next planetary evolutionary stage as indicated in RS's Occult Science?). My friend Patrick Moser has also tried to answer this question (more specifically about using animal manures in his composts) for vegen CSA customers. He talks about the 'hierarchy" of kingdoms and our place in it and how we humans too seek to be food, of a sort, for realms further up the hierarchy. You definitely better check in with Patrick on this. There have been several conversation on this list about this issue of animal sheaths for the preps. If you choose to search the archives http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ I wish you good luck and great perseverance! I'll send you email contact info these folks in a private message. Phyl ============================================== pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com Phyl Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. Waianae, HI 96792 808-696-1010 808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_11402687==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Thank you for your post. Re Peter Proctor, he may be helpful with the next
issue of LILIPOH with the question of animal parts.

Dear Christine,

I believe this is a pressing question of merit and deserves living with. I'm glad to hear you are working with it. Thanks.

As I recall Peter talking about the BD work in India, there are actually special "grave" yards for cows. There are folks whose work (or service, as they refer to it in India) is to care for the dead cows. Presumably this would involve the injured as well. I do recall photos of horns gathered for the making of 500. Many of them were painted one color or another. The colors indicated political or social affiliation or stature (I don't quite remember) of the owner of the cow.

Apparently there was a fellow who gave a fairly lucid reply to this question of using animal parts, to a couple of rather agitated vegen oriented folks, at the BD conferences in BC Canada a few weeks ago. It may be worth trying to "track" him down and see if he'd share his ideas with you. As I recall a friend telling me who was there, it had something to do with imbuing the soil and plant realm with astrality, thus our vegetable food would better have the forces to help humans evolve, which would not only mean evolving beyond eating animals, but eventually plants as well (presumably the next planetary evolutionary stage as indicated in RS's Occult Science?).

My friend Patrick Moser has also tried to answer this question (more specifically about using animal manures in his composts) for vegen CSA customers. He talks about the 'hierarchy" of kingdoms and our place in it and how we humans too seek to be food, of a sort, for realms further up the hierarchy. You definitely better check in with Patrick on this.

There have been several conversation on this list about this issue of animal sheaths for the preps. If you choose to search the archives http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ I wish you good luck and great perseverance!

I'll send you email contact info these folks in a private message.

Phyl


==============================================
pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com

Phyl Dwyer
Kahumana Farm
86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd.
Waianae, HI 96792

808-696-1010
808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_11402687==_.ALT-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 18:16:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23499 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:15:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17287; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:08:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17205 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.149.164.222 (mx3-52.ilhawaii.net [204.149.164.195]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA27706; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:09:03 -0500 Message-ID: <3810E41B.59F6@smallfarms.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:24:27 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics References: <0.8ade6fbc.253fb062@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2107 Earlier: Hugh, you sure have done more than your share to spread the word but we need to reach the "hundredth monkey" magnitude before it can become mainstream. Maybe the Internet will help. Hey Guys and Gals: I volunteer, or more correctly, I volunteer smallfarms.com. Have a look at http://www.smallfarms.com. I put this site together for small farmers and ranchers as a marketing tool for all of us small folks. Examine the entries and you'll see that we attempted to make is as farmer friendly and individual as we knew how. (Further comments and suggestions are welcome.) Registrations are FREE right now. No strings. No future obligations... Honest. My wife allowed me to spend the money on this because we believe that we small farmers and ranchers have the best products around - we're the ones who will talk with consumers honestly. We need to build communities of small farmers and ranchers, and if the internet will help, let's use it. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 18:51:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA24374 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19721; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19505 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:41:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.149.164.222 (mx3-52.ilhawaii.net [204.149.164.195]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA05014; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:42:25 -0500 Message-ID: <3810EBED.6C84@smallfarms.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:57:49 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: "Gore confirms what we knew"] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2108 Hey Mary: I was told almost the same thing when I revealed many years ago when I let it be known that I wanted to be a farmer. Majored in social work instead, joined the family business years later, but finally ended up in farming... But some would say I'm only a part timer. Our problem is how do we begin recreating viable opportunities for the young FFA student you mentioned so he can pursue his dreams directly? I think I have a partial answer in smallfarms.com. (If my memory serves me, Mary is one of the co-authors of a paper on vertically integrated agribusiness and it's implications for the small, family farmer. A must read. She's from Missouri!) glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 19:00:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA24488 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:00:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20321; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from runningman.mobilixnet.dk ([195.78.82.41]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19959 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:49:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from carol (dialin-106-003.mobilixnet.dk [212.97.199.3]) by runningman.mobilixnet.dk (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA00318 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:50:07 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991022215000.008f9100@mail.mobilixnet.dk> X-Sender: mob34587@mail.mobilixnet.dk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 21:50:00 +0200 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Carol Jensen Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics - good news re wine In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2109 At 08:12 21-10-1999 -0400, you wrote: >I'm reading, cautiously trying, attempting to understand why BD might >work...which is why I've joined the list, and why I've tried to generate >discussions on horsetail, among other things. Because I'm one of the >pioneers out here, what I'm doing has a few other new growers interested. >I've already read Nicolas Joly's Wine From Sky to Earth now a few times >since its translation by Acres U.S.A., and I ordered a copy for another >grower who's famous for her Chardonnay and skills and a viticulturalist >(She's in the Niagara region, but has started a new vineyard out here, >about 4 miles from mine). She's a little interested in the success I had in >using horsetail to keep powdery mildew at bay during the 30 to 40 day long >no sulphur window before harvest. > >[By the way, I though Alan was going to post his thoughts on Joly's book? >Maybe I should do that later, to get the ball rolling.] > >So, we'll see what happens out here in this part of Ontario. > >I'm also told by someone who came down into the County from Ottawa last >weekend for a look that the September Decanter wine magazine has an article >discussing BD. Did anyone see it? > >Cheers, >Geoff Heinricks > Horsetail works on powdery mildew because it's full of kisel. By the way, it also cures people of bladder infections, did you know that? I had one from 1959 to 1972, drank a tea with equisitum arvense in and never looked back! After years and years of pills that didn't work at all... Carol ----------------------------------- Webmasters! You need help! Read my article "Grammar for Webmasters" at ------------------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 19:05:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA24529 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20645; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:58:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cobalt1-he.global.net.uk (cobalt1-he.global.net.uk [195.147.246.161]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20341 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pb1s06a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.230.178] helo=compaq) by cobalt1-he.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11enaK-0002Qv-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:54:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3810EA0A.7EA7@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:49:46 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: An update in rhyme References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2110 Shapiro is on record telling Conway, He need not worry Terminator will Be locked up in some great Monsanto cupboard Sterile seed it blew a kind of chill Up the trousers legs of many people The Rockefellers shivered in their shoes Delta Pine/Monsanto and the others Really all this had become bad news. Lots of concerned people began scribing Almost every country on the globe Protests coming every blooming which way And clearly Conway had the sense of Job Called the great Monsanto to his table And whispered little nothings in their ear Synonymous with corporate greed,its had it The public won't put up with it round here. USDA though looks in a bad position Defending this technology now means Since its been chucked out by people everywhere And not just only by our friends the "greens" I think the bloomin Gov't should tell them Sorry lads we've got to say farewell You can take your Terminator with you And find your own way down the road to Hell. Monsanto is a company with problems Its arrogance has meant its on a low In peoples estimations its a monster That even little children seem to know I personally think that all of us must carry On the fight for there's no doubt that we Will see the Terminator in the future Taken out and dusted wait and see! We just can't trust these huge great corporations They say one thing and do a whole lot more Its clear to people round the world, we'll have to Watch them closely to be blooming sure. Rex Tyler From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 19:08:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA24572 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20616; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:58:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cobalt1-he.global.net.uk (cobalt1-he.global.net.uk [195.147.246.161]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20337 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:53:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pb1s06a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.230.178] helo=compaq) by cobalt1-he.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11enaI-0002Qf-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:54:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3810E4CA.70D0@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:27:22 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Fruit trees References: <380E5957.7B33E70B@cloud9.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2111 Mark Santoro wrote: > > Hello, > Would anyone know where non-grafted fruit trees are available? I cannot > seem to locate any sources, though I am sure some must exist. The trees > would be needed for spring planting. > Thanks, > Mark Where are you Mark, I have a source in the UK just up the road from me a lady selling organic fruit trees will arrange this,but if youo are in the US I understand its very difficult getting plants/trees out there. Rex Tyler -- ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 19:23:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA24846 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA21797; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA21738 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d155.infoserve.net [199.175.157.155]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA05343 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001001bf1ce4$6a2516c0$9b9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: An update in rhyme Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:22:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2112 Dear Rex, Great poem, good summary. Last I heard, Terminator technology is being revised and will come out in a different form, as your poem comments. M. -----Original Message----- From: Cook's Delight To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 4:09 PM Subject: An update in rhyme >Shapiro is on record telling Conway, >He need not worry Terminator will >Be locked up in some great Monsanto cupboard >Sterile seed it blew a kind of chill >Up the trousers legs of many people >The Rockefellers shivered in their shoes >Delta Pine/Monsanto and the others >Really all this had become bad news. > >Lots of concerned people began scribing >Almost every country on the globe >Protests coming every blooming which way >And clearly Conway had the sense of Job >Called the great Monsanto to his table >And whispered little nothings in their ear >Synonymous with corporate greed,its had it >The public won't put up with it round here. > >USDA though looks in a bad position >Defending this technology now means >Since its been chucked out by people everywhere >And not just only by our friends the "greens" >I think the bloomin Gov't should tell them >Sorry lads we've got to say farewell >You can take your Terminator with you >And find your own way down the road to Hell. > >Monsanto is a company with problems >Its arrogance has meant its on a low >In peoples estimations its a monster >That even little children seem to know >I personally think that all of us must carry >On the fight for there's no doubt that we >Will see the Terminator in the future >Taken out and dusted wait and see! > >We just can't trust these huge great corporations >They say one thing and do a whole lot more >Its clear to people round the world, we'll have to >Watch them closely to be blooming sure. > > >Rex Tyler > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 20:34:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA25702 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 20:34:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA24307; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 20:05:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA24053 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 20:00:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Snarzlak@aol.com Received: from Snarzlak@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hUXMm6d6l_ (2614) for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 20:01:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.286103e6.254254dc@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 20:01:32 EDT Subject: Re: Bricklayer's Story To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 27 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2113 Good story....seems perfect for animation. Chuck Jones couldn't get a coyote to be that unlucky. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 22:23:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA26651 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 22:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03604; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 22:19:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03463 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 22:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.170] ("port 2051"@[148.233.78.170]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FK000BEUSXZ1U@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:01:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:09:52 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: sugars In-reply-to: <380FA2A7.6326@globalnet.co.uk> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id WAA03466 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2114 >Yes the best thing it seems coming out of Mexico at the moment is >Organic Agave Juice from a well known cacti used to flavour tequilla >it is appearing in Jams,Spreads,cakes,you name it its in it,but the best >sweetener of all is stevia. > >Other sweeteners probably the healthiest are Organic Barley Malt, >Organic Rice Syrup or Organic Maize Syrup followed closely by Amasake. > >As regards Honey organic or otherwise its 98% sugar and is made by bees >for bees.however I look at myself I can't see much likeness to a bee > >Rex Tyler >-- >------------------------ Hi Rex: I forgot to ask you, what is stevia and Amasake. The other thing that I wanted to mention/ask is that in ayurved heated honey is consider a poison. So it can not be used in cooking, do you (or any other person in the list) care to comment on this. I agree with Hugh about the benefits of bee honey, but there most also be a place for sugar based sweetners in our diet. Sweet greetings (ps are you the one that writes rhymes from time to time ?) Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 22 23:48:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA27443 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:48:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA07867; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:44:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA07691 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:40:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.27] (pm3shep1-163-54.intrepid.net [209.190.163.54]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA10042 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:42:07 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991022215000.008f9100@mail.mobilixnet.dk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 11:45:12 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics - good news re wine Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2115 >By the way, it also cures people of bladder infections, did you know that? >I had one from 1959 to 1972, drank a tea with equisitum arvense in and >never looked back! After years and years of pills that didn't work at >all... > >Carol An important note here: drink horsetail tea (equisitum) that is too strong, or drink it too often and you will have blood in your urine and pain in your lower back (in your kidneys) for several days. It is a very powerful 'kidney cleaner.' -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 23 00:06:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA27683 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:06:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08597; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08422 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.27] (pm3shep1-163-54.intrepid.net [209.190.163.54]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA12224 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:56:26 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <380FA2A7.6326@globalnet.co.uk> <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 12:03:48 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: sugars Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2116 >Hi Rex: > >I forgot to ask you, what is stevia and Amasake. Stevia is an herb which is as sweet as sugar but has 'none' of the side effects of sugar. Many of the transnationals have invested in this herb in the past 5 years and you will see it become a more common sugar substitute. I have never seen information about 'nutriseutical' value for this herb, but I've noted in the last two weeks that great claims are being made in some newsgroups for this 'sweetner.' I'll assume that these new found health benefits are related to the big money that is invested in stevia currently. Amasake is cultured or fermented sweet brown rice. It can be used as a sweetner in baking or it can be heated (to kill the culture) and drunk as a beverage. It has a deep honey-like sweetness to it. Eden used to sell wonderful amazake in a special package here in the states, but I have not seen it for a while. The amazake that appears as a beverage in healthfood stores in this area currently is a very pale substitute for full bodied amazake. You can make amazake on your kitchen stove, but you will need to buy a 'culture' from a mail order source in order to get it started the first time. It is a delicious beverage and is truly nutritional. I strongly recommend that anyone who has never done so make a big batch of amazake for Christmas supper. Possily not everyone is aware that if you have a spoonful of good whole grain in your mouth and you chew it 100 or so times, that grain at some point with 'automagickally' turn into a deeply sweet milk in your mouth. It is said that it was this effect that Ghandi was speaking of when he said 'Drink your food.' From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 23 02:57:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA28784 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 02:57:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA16558; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 02:53:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cobalt3-he.global.net.uk (cobalt3-he.global.net.uk [195.147.246.163]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA16243 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 02:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pe9s05a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.229.234] helo=compaq) by cobalt3-he.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11ev1D-0004TW-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:51:11 -0700 Message-ID: <381159A5.5DE4@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 07:45:57 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: sugars References: <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2117 Guillermo Romero wrote: > > >Yes the best thing it seems coming out of Mexico at the moment is > >Organic Agave Juice from a well known cacti used to flavour tequilla > >it is appearing in Jams,Spreads,cakes,you name it its in it,but the best > >sweetener of all is stevia. > > > >Other sweeteners probably the healthiest are Organic Barley Malt, > >Organic Rice Syrup or Organic Maize Syrup followed closely by Amasake. > > > >As regards Honey organic or otherwise its 98% sugar and is made by bees > >for bees.however I look at myself I can't see much likeness to a bee > > > >Rex Tyler > >-- > >------------------------ > > Hi Rex: > > I forgot to ask you, what is stevia and Amasake. > > The other thing that I wanted to mention/ask is that in ayurved heated honey is consider a poison. So it can not be used in cooking, do you (or any other person in the list) care to comment on this. I agree with Hugh about the benefits of bee honey, but there most also be a place for sugar based sweetners in our diet. > > Sweet greetings > > (ps are you the one that writes rhymes from time to time ?) > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Hi Guillermo, Yes I am the one who feels more at ease with an ode or two,this is how I seem to be able to express myself best,I have always campaigned in rhyme it really does seem to get messages into realms that sometimes they would never reach,and even if the matter in hand is very serious,it always seems lighter when it uses such a form,you might have seen I have just summarised the Terminator business and for me I think that people might read this version but might choose not to read sheets of formal stuff. It's just my way of expressing things and besides it allows a hint of humour to come into what is a very serious subject. Stevia is a plant that grows in South America in I think Brazil and Paraguay,it is a small green shrubby plant that has amazingly positive attributes.In its natural form it is about 10 times sweeter than refined white sugar,the reason is the molecules called stevioside are made up of glucose,sophorose and steviol,when it is refined into a white powder it becomes up to 300 times sweeter than white sugar,can you believe that! If you were using say 2 cups of sugar in a cake recipe you would only need 1/2 teaspoonful for the same effect,when you have it in your hand and your with people if you blew it off your hand everybody would taste its sweetness from particles that they had inadvertently inhaled. The Japanese have used it for quite a long time,it has no calories so it doesn't make people worry about putting on weight and although it is more expensive than sugar in buying terms weight for weight as you use so little it is economically sound besides it has lots more advantages for health rather than ill health. It actually improves the mouth area and prevents trouble with gums and teeth,and now is being used as a sweetener in Herbal Toothpastes one just launched in UK under the brand Green People contains it. The other marvellous thing about it, is that it enhances the true flavour of foods a definate plus in many peoples book.The rainforest Indians I can't remember the tribes name but I know they called it Ka Yee I think it is available in the US but its not very well known here yet. I think the FDA banned it in 1991 for whatever reason but it is available now because I sell it in my shop and its made in America, Friends tell me it can be bought in Malaysia and Thailand and other places in the Far East.Its been used in Paraguay for centuries. Amasake Oh! dear that a weakness of mine,it came back to prominance with the macrobiotic diets from Japan,it is a way of enoying the sweetness from whole grains,which are cooked and a koji or friendly bacteria is added to the warm softer grain and the harsh outer skin is gobbled up by the bacteria to leave behind the rich sweetness of bacteria,remember Michio Kushi saying we must chew our food lots of times especially whole grains like rice to eventually taste the sweetness, amasake reduces that mastication period because all you do is open a bottle or enjoy the amazing sweetness after the bacteria have done their stuff,it is a wonderful pick me up if used in a hot drink and is used by nursing mothers,people who need building up after an illness or me,I sell Rice Amasake,Millet Amasake and Oat Amasake and provided one doesn't eat the whole jar in one go it is a more natural and less stressful on our body sweetener. Its a funny thing really I sell a lot of honey,a lot from Mexico with organic certification,Heating honey for clarification purposes and mistakenly for cosmetic purposes flies in the face of the maker ie the Bee,who no matter where he has his hive he maintains a constant not very hot temperature.Man is so arrogant he always thinks he knows best where money is involved and an organic bee food is harmed due to a build up of hydroxy methyl furfurans or HMF as they are more commonly known. In Germany and Holland the level of HMF mustn't exceed 40 parts per million in the good old UK it can't exceed 80 parts per million and it is caused by heat, bad handling and age, so the wonderful honey left in the back of the cupboard for 2 years or the honey put in cakes may be positively unhealthy.It is interesting that the Bear who enjoys honey as we know is the one wild creature with terrible tooth problems perhaps we should introduce them to stevia! Hope this helps Rex Tyler -- ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 23 03:28:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA28994 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 03:28:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA18117; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 03:25:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA17807 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 03:21:28 -0400 (EDT) From: PatandLiz@aol.com Received: from PatandLiz@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hPLNa17081 (3878) for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 03:21:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.eed554b0.2542bc07@aol.com> Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 03:21:43 EDT Subject: Re: farm certification To: BDNow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2118 If you are interested in Anne's reponse why not ask her? Hmmm. M Levine's response might sound like a Willis' one....perhaps a Willis pseudonym??? Maybe I am tripping? I was almost certain there would be a intelligent response to the current state and suggested certification standards given in Letter #1 and 2 posts. Is the New Zealand, Georgia, and Shepardston triangle awake? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 23 04:53:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA29326 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 04:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA20548; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 04:50:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA20512 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 04:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([210.55.85.64]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991023085408.BFZB45175.mta2-rme@default> for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 21:54:08 +1300 Message-ID: <38116E81.682D@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 21:57:35 +1300 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics - good news re wine References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2119 > > >By the way, it also cures people of bladder infections, did you know that? > >I had one from 1959 to 1972, drank a tea with equisitum arvense in and > >never looked back! After years and years of pills that didn't work at > >all... > > > >Carol > > An important note here: drink horsetail tea (equisitum) that is too strong, > or drink it too often and you will have blood in your urine and pain in > your lower back (in your kidneys) for several days. It is a very powerful > 'kidney cleaner.' > > -Allan > igg@igg.com Hi Allan Will horsetail tea get rid of the calcium build up that causes kidney stones? I get this very painful problem every so often. Many Thanks Tony Robinson New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 23 07:25:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29840 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 07:25:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA25155; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 07:22:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA25078 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 07:19:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.27] (pm3shep1-163-56.intrepid.net [209.190.163.56]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA15997 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 07:21:07 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0.eed554b0.2542bc07@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 19:27:46 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: farm certification Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2120 > If you are interested in Anne's reponse why not ask her? Hmmm. M Levine's >response might sound like a Willis' one....perhaps a Willis pseudonym??? >Maybe I am tripping? I was almost certain there would be a intelligent >response to the current state and suggested certification standards given in >Letter #1 and 2 posts. Is the New Zealand, Georgia, and Shepardston triangle >awake? Pat and or Liz (?) Did the above get posted to the list in error? If not, howabout quoting the original msg so I have some idea of what this is about? If there is a question for Anne M., I'll be seeing her Sunday and can bring it up, so let's have it soon! While we're on this topic, Does anyone know if the American Biodynamic Association has any plans to be represented at Bioneers? -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 23 10:50:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01039 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 10:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02354; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 10:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02250 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 10:44:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 209.143.11.42 (hils-ras1-2-cs-14.dial.bright.net [209.143.11.42]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id KAA24781 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 10:46:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3811D89B.2C5B@bright.net> Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 10:47:39 -0500 From: Marilyn Hiestand Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: sugars References: <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> <381159A5.5DE4@globalnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2121 Where is it possible to buy stevia plants. I have used some from the local natural foods store and find that the claims are valid. I understand that the plant can be used in many dishes in it's dry form with no need to further refine. Marilyn Ohio From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 23 11:39:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01368 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 11:39:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05132; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 11:36:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05055 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 11:34:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.206.73]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sat, 23 Oct 1999 16:35:53 +0100 Message-ID: <004801bf1d6c$6e738080$49ce2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: <380FA2A7.6326@globalnet.co.uk><000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> Subject: Re: sugars Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 16:33:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2122 Following the thread of herbal alternatives to sugar, my wife and I find that various foods and drinks taste sweeter when taken after eating sprouted chickpeas. Is this a common observation ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 23 14:34:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04046 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 14:34:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA16464; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 14:30:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA16425 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 14:30:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.27] (pm3shep3-163-156.intrepid.net [209.190.163.156]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06207 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 14:31:19 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3811D89B.2C5B@bright.net> References: <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> <381159A5.5DE4@globalnet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 14:38:12 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: sugars Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2123 >Where is it possible to buy stevia plants. I have used some from the >local natural foods store and find that the claims are valid. I >understand that the plant can be used in many dishes in it's dry form >with no need to further refine. > >Marilyn >Ohio Jim Foltz of Peace in the Valley Herbs and Jerry Marx of Jefferson Greenhouse sell Stevia Plants here in the Shenandoah. You can reach either at (304) 725-4706 weekdays From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 23 15:05:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04237 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 15:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18318; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 15:01:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18187 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 14:59:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hESNa12223 (4457) for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 15:00:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.c45fd2b2.25435fbc@aol.com> Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 15:00:12 EDT Subject: Re: indigo kids? To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2124 The famous Aine mentioned before who came to stay as a four year old was being defiant. For once her grandfather pulled rank on her and said: "Look, I'm your grandfather, I'm the one who decides" to which she answered: "No, God is the one who really decides!" Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 23 16:30:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04720 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 16:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA23753; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 16:26:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from runningman.mobilixnet.dk ([195.78.82.41]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23603 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 16:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from carol (dialin-101-177.mobilixnet.dk [212.97.194.177]) by runningman.mobilixnet.dk (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA05771 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 22:26:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991023213743.008f78d0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> X-Sender: mob34587@mail.mobilixnet.dk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 21:37:43 +0200 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Carol Jensen Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics - good news re wine In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19991022215000.008f9100@mail.mobilixnet.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2125 At 11:45 23-10-1999 -0400, you wrote: >>By the way, it also cures people of bladder infections, did you know that? >>I had one from 1959 to 1972, drank a tea with equisitum arvense in and >>never looked back! After years and years of pills that didn't work at >>all... >> >>Carol > >An important note here: drink horsetail tea (equisitum) that is too strong, >or drink it too often and you will have blood in your urine and pain in >your lower back (in your kidneys) for several days. It is a very powerful >'kidney cleaner.' > >-Allan >igg@igg.com > Yep, on the tea packet it says three days only, then at least a week's break, then again three days if needed. I needed only one day and haven't been sick since. Never get sick anyway! Carol ----------------------------------- Webmasters! You need help! Read my article "Grammar for Webmasters" at ------------------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 23 18:13:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05325 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 18:13:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAB29194; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 18:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28899 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 18:05:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.57] (pm3shep1-163-57.intrepid.net [209.190.163.57]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA03210 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 18:07:02 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991023213743.008f78d0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> References: <3.0.5.32.19991022215000.008f9100@mail.mobilixnet.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 17:56:54 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Glenn's comments on RE Biodynamics - good news re wine Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2126 >Yep, on the tea packet it says three days only, then at least a week's >break, then again three days if needed. I needed only one day and haven't >been sick since. Never get sick anyway! > >Carol Who's packaging equisetum in tea bags? I didn't know things had gone this far! :-) -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 23 19:47:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA05904 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 19:47:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA03551; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 19:34:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03466 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 19:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.149.164.198 (mx3-55.ilhawaii.net [204.149.164.198]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA25767; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 18:34:54 -0500 Message-ID: <381249BD.3E49@smallfarms.com> Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 13:50:21 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re:Sea Salt References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2127 Hey Guillermo and Hugh! Giullermo, next time you come to the US, forget the city clothes and look for an organic cotton guaybera (sp?). It's becoming acceptable business dress. If you can't find one contact me and I'll help out. In Hawaii, sea salt is mixed with a clay called alae, a-lie, which gives the salt a reddish cast and enchances taste. All of the alae salt I've had was a gift from the island of Kauai. We use it sparingly in our fish and meat dishes usually when we have people over or on special occasions. With alae salt all occasions tend to become special. This is not the Hawaiian salt that's found in some markets which is mined and not Hawaiian. Anyone know of a source? glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Sun Oct 24 01:58:35 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA08740 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 01:58:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA09832 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 01:33:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA09824 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 01:32:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA06191 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 01:31:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.57] (pm3shep2-163-88.intrepid.net [209.190.163.88]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA26623; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 01:31:10 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 01:38:31 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: What Makes Biodynamics Different Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2128 Hugh Lovel said: >One of the most commonly asked questions is, "What makes biodynamics >different?" > >While this is not easy to explain in a few words, >the concept of forces and the methods that come >from it put biodynamic agriculture in a class by itself. >Biodynamic farmers work with forces. With >the horn manure, horn silica and composting preparations >they restore life and vitality to the crops >they raise from the earth. As biodynamic agriculture >becomes more widespread and its practitioners >become more adept, they will continue to fine tune >their methods, achieving seeming miracles with >small efforts. The biodynamic method is in its infancy. >Its growth depends on its practitioners >becoming increasingly conscious and confident >in working with nature's forces. You can learn more about working with nature's forces by reading Hugh's landmark article "The Nature of Forces" at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/uai/forces.html =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human wellness and development. Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 24 08:55:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10897 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 08:55:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA29187; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 08:52:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop.kin.bc.ca (pop.kin.bc.ca [142.26.201.11]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA28709 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 08:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [142.26.201.243] ([142.26.201.243] verified) by pop.kin.bc.ca (Stalker SMTP Server 1.5) with ESMTP id S.0000045767 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 21:29:53 +0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Harvey Armstrong/Kate O'Keefe/Galen" Subject: Calcium Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 21:29:54 +0000 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2129 Hi - I have been reading this list for a while, but this is my first submission, so let me introduce myself. My name is Harvey Armstrong, and I live on a homestead (20 acres) on the north end of Kootenay Lake, in BC, in western Canada. I was raised on a farm, and have gardened all my life (organically) but have never tried to make my living as a farmer. Seeing my father and many others of his generation driven out of farming by a large feed company (General Mills, in the US) didn't make me want to try it. I became interested in BD because of genetic engineering, thinking somehow that BD might offer a counterforce to the horror of GE. My question is quite prosaic: I bought a bag of lime the other day, thinking to use it in my compost piles. What I purchased was 'hydrated lime', with warnings concerning its corrosive nature. Should I refrain from using this in my compost pile? Is it the same as 'quicklime'? What is hydrated lime, anyway, and if its not suitable for agricultural use, what is? Harvey From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 24 08:57:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10911 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 08:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA29347; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 08:54:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29017 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 08:49:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.57] (pm3shep2-163-85.intrepid.net [209.190.163.85]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA20561 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 08:03:19 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 08:10:38 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: What Makes Biodynamics Different Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2130 Hugh Lovel said: >One of the most commonly asked questions is, "What makes biodynamics >different?" > >While this is not easy to explain in a few words, >the concept of forces and the methods that come >from it put biodynamic agriculture in a class by itself. >Biodynamic farmers work with forces. With >the horn manure, horn silica and composting preparations >they restore life and vitality to the crops >they raise from the earth. As biodynamic agriculture >becomes more widespread and its practitioners >become more adept, they will continue to fine tune >their methods, achieving seeming miracles with >small efforts. The biodynamic method is in its infancy. >Its growth depends on its practitioners >becoming increasingly conscious and confident >in working with nature's forces. You can learn more about working with nature's forces by reading Hugh's landmark article "The Nature of Forces" at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/uai/forces.html =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human wellness and development. Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 24 20:17:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA16320 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:17:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15033; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:14:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub1.une.edu.au (postfix@[129.180.1.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA14810 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:10:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Enveng-dforster.une.edu.au (enveng-dforster.une.edu.au [129.180.135.50]) by mailhub1.une.edu.au (Postfix) with SMTP id AC4675E64; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:11:26 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991025101226.0079f7b0@metz.une.edu.au> X-Sender: dforster@metz.une.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:12:26 +1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dianne Forster Subject: Horsetail In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991022215000.008f9100@mail.mobilixnet.dk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2131 Horsetail is wonderful for strengthening finger nails (and toe nails too!) as well as thickening a head of hair. In another life time I had a health food shop. One of the girls I had helping me had a problem with losing her hair as well as having very weak finger nails. I used to make pots of tea from various herbs which the staff would drink throughout the day. At one stage when Claire was working and drinking the tea she noticed a huge improvement in her nails as well as her hair becoming thicker and healthier. I regard it as a Wonderful herb. Unfortunately in Australia we can no longer buy it from a nursery as it has become a "noxious weed". Deanna From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 24 20:25:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA16389 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:25:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15742; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub1.une.edu.au (postfix@mailhub1.une.edu.au [129.180.1.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15663 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:21:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Enveng-dforster.une.edu.au (enveng-dforster.une.edu.au [129.180.135.50]) by mailhub1.une.edu.au (Postfix) with SMTP id B4F855E66; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:22:54 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991025102354.007d09d0@metz.une.edu.au> X-Sender: dforster@metz.une.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:23:54 +1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dianne Forster Subject: Re: sugars/amazake In-Reply-To: References: <380FA2A7.6326@globalnet.co.uk> <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2132 So does anyone have a recipe on how to make amazake? Deanna From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 24 22:41:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA17813 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAB24876; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24540 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:32:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.57] (pm3shep4-163-173.intrepid.net [209.190.163.173]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA16911 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:33:59 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:39:45 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD from Ferdinand (Rearing Cows with BD Preps) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id WAA24543 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2133 For your readers from Ferdinand Dear Allan, This is a letter to a friend who is responsible for the BD Newsletter in British Columbia. The contribution re: Cows and winter, may be of interest to you. Dear Laurence, It falls me heavy (es faellt mir schwer) to write an article that is almost devoid of BD-spirituality. Already in 1911 Dr. Steiner said more than what we are daring to say these days. I find that if we say what we know i.e. what we have experienced, we can say anything (or almost) and the people will follow. Of course, it will cause difficulties if one has to ‘assemble’ Steiner’s ideas and has not own experience. I know people who are outstanding Steiner-Legoinaer. They take a sentence out of Dr. Steiner’s lecture and add it to another sentence of another lecture. Then, they unite the two with a sentence of, yet, another sentence (some do it even on paper…!) while a large group does it (rather unconsciously) when giving a lecture or while teaching Anthroposophy. This, in my opinion, is ludicrous. Since Dr. Steiner’s death 75 years have gone into the ‘Eimer’ and he was of the firm believe that, by the year 2000, many, if not most, would have a good basis in the practical application of reincarnation (to KNOW where I come from) and also in BD. Yet, we are barely able to believe what was said in 1924…..! What a mess we are in. Taking 6 000 000 000 people, Anthroposophy has barely made an impact, if you ask me. Of course, some old fathers will say that somewhere in the world Anthroposophy is kicking and growing. Well, so be it. But neither politically nor medically nor in the world of finance, farming and schooling (perhaps there the most) has Anthroposophy made a large impact. If you are an Anthroposophist you may think, of course, that the whole world is talking about it (because you have reduced your world to that particular view….). If, on the other hand, you are going out there, into the world where Nestle is making baby food, or Novartis is constructing new plants or Krupp is making Titanium etc. Anthroposophy is not only not known it is not even born. I believe that the cause of this is the fact that Anthroposophists do not dare to do what Dr. Steiner asked them (and us), to do. To develop the third eye, to develop the etheric seeing and to come to very clear, scientific conclusions. If we do not develop the etheric seeing (and it is really easy) we will constantly be some months or years behind modern science. We will never be able to say anything profound or conclusive before science has already done it. Like scared rabbits we are running around the gene engineered cabbage patch trying to convince (at least each other) that BD will find a solution to the somewhat disformed Kapbatsch…. Yet, I will try to say something more simple (or better write it) so that the (unknown) members of (also) ur Society, will learn more about BD. Here is my article: Rearing cows with BD Preparations. For any farmer the winter months represent a real challenge when he has to keep his animals tightly penned in. Hoof diseases, the runs, arthritis, pneumonia etc. etc. are only a few illnesses that may ‘befall’ his animals. In addition, new born calves are putting an additional strain on the mother cows capacity. I believe that I have found a way of getting my cows through the winter without any of the above – actually without any illnesses at all. Here are a few hints: By the beginning of October (Coastal BC, 7+’ of rain during the winter) the cows have to come in. (Damage to the fields, swamp, cold, etc. etc.) Some farmers may have put their animals on a concrete slab – this truly drains away the animal’s warmth. We have put several truck loads of coarse sand (here it is called bird’s eye, about 4 – 7mm diameter – do not go larger or smaller!!) in to the cow pen so that a 1 – 1.5’ sand bed is being created. In this way any rain or water can run away. Best, put a hard layer of crush underneath if you are on clay and slope it a bit. This sand will grind the hooves and grind away any rot or fungi etc. The cow droppings will, now, happily fall onto the sand. In our place, we remove it. It can be done with a special device for larger area or by rake and special shovel if you have a herd of less than 15 cows (which is possibly rare). The manure that you collect goes onto the compost. But there is still enough left in the sand to imbue it with that special fertility which you will need in the spring. Now, urine will fall into the sand as well. Again, 1 – 2 weekly spraying with Barrel Compost throughout the winter. One more point which I almost forgot to mention. The cows love to sleep on the sand. It reflects the warmth (of their own body!) - and they are always dry underneath. If one cow stepps (by mistake) onto the other one's food etc. it does not cause fractures, wounds etc. as the body can move (in the soft sand). I often tested the warmth of the sand and, even after an hour, the area where the cows were laying is still warm. Further, the ground does not get hard (sand does not freeze) and does not break their hooves. In areas where you have frozen clay, you often get cows with badly broken hooves due to sharp edges. And last, but not least, it is a joy to walk in the soft sand when you pay them your daily visits. They love to run in it and do not slip!!! Calves have a field day and run like mad - that's what you need to get that badly needed winter exercise for them. By spring, the cows go out onto the field (if) – otherwise, the procedure can continue. Then, when the cows are gone, we load the sand (that is full of good stuff: N, P, K (mixed with the Barrel Compost) and take it to the field. The growth is excellent (for grass fields). If you cannot take it to the fields, you can seed your cow pen with almost any vegetable crop you wish to produce. We had outstanding crops of Cabbage, Potatoes, Tomatoes, Cauliflower, Broccoli etc. Due to the Barrel Compost’s activity during the winter, most of the droppings and urine that has fallen into the sand have been turned into fine compost. Barrel Compost is a special product developed by Maria Thun in Germany. It contains all BD preparations. It can be bought from C-Dar World Forest Foundation in small and large quantities. Ferdinand Vondruska -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-=-= C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest into an understanding of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest Foundation; a fully registered Canadian charity based on the philosophy of Dr. Rudolf Steiner C-Dar WFF: Learning to understand and serve the rhythms, cycles and formative forces that sustain the forest" Fax Canada 604 898-1512 or call 604-898-5511, Reg# BN 89103 0348 RR0001. Please visit our Website at:www.c-dar.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 24 22:44:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA17831 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:44:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25184; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:41:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25035 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:40:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.57] (pm3shep4-163-173.intrepid.net [209.190.163.173]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA18180 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:41:26 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:45:09 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: The Claymont Estate, BD Farming in Charles Town, WV Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2134 (This article, written by list member Jeanne Mozier, first appeared in the WV entertainment newspaper, "Grafitti.") Way Out in the Eastern Panhandle by Jeanne Mozier BIODYNAMICS, POTATO SALAD AND A WASHINGTON HOME Jefferson County is justifiably proud of its Washington homes, not that George ever lived in any of them. They are the homes of kin on land Washington's brothers and their families inherited from the eldest Washington sibling -- Laurence, who died young in 1752. Of the five homes, only Harewood remains in the Washington family. Unfortunately for presidential tourists, except for Claymont, the largest and most elaborate, all the Washington homes are in private hands. They are visible from the road but open to the public on rare occasions during annual house tour weekends. In 1820, Claymont was one of two mansions built by a pair of young Washington brothers, Bushrod and John Augustine II, who married the Blackburn sisters. They chose house sites on either side of North Bullskin Run. Bushrod Corbin Washington named his place Claymont for its red dirt. It included the largest spring in Jefferson County as well as a smaller one. Once the place left family hands, it had several owners including the Victorian novelist, Frank Stockton who wrote in the garden house. By 1975, the 360-acre parcel with its pale yellow ante-bellum mansion was owned and operated as a community by the Claymont Society for Continuous Education following the teachings of G.I. Gurdjeiff. The original oak paneling and 20 foot ceilings of the 20,000 square foot mansion are a draw for meetings, receptions and its current use as a bed and breakfast. Visitors need to be warned, this is not pampered Victorian splendor with solicitous hosts, gourmet breakfasts on shining silver and whirlpool tubs in the rooms. Claymont is authentically spartan with room furniture more appropriate to the Tibetan monks who filled the place much of the spring than the original Virginia aristocrats whose furniture would be priceless antiques. There are even more spartan dormitory accommodations in the school building just down the road where the monks chose not to stay. The breakfast part of Claymont B&B is negotiable although a community kitchen and bakery at the school site turns out quality vegetarian food for workers and conferences. The long, low and simple school and dormitory structure blossoms into a multi-sided grand hall which the Tibetans strung with hundreds of colorful prayer flags. It will accommodate more than 200 people for conference or public events. Claymont's surroundings are pristine with more than 80 acres of woods and abundant pasturage along Bullskin Run. Giant rolled biscuits of hay dot the fields. There are cattle, even a llama or two. Five acres of gardens and orchards border one long side of the school complex. Currently they are the centerpiece of biodynamic gardening activities conducted by those who follow the teachings of Rudolf Steiner. The first weekend of October brings a collection of 200 practitioners and students from all over the world for the Fourth Annual Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference, open to the public. The guiding force of the BD operation is Allan Baillett, owner of Intergalactic Garage, a Shepherdstown shop with an online presence dealing in rare, regional and used CDs and other music. He works the land at Claymont using BD principles and spreads them by moderating a global e-list about biodynamics that brings active participation from farms in New Zealand, Great Britain, Europe and the Americas. Baillett was led to the energy principles of Steiner and BD through a personal health crisis. His high level chemical sensitivities in the 1970s were "cured" by organic food. He is now an apostle of this advanced organic farming method that aims at producing food to enhance body, will and spirit by reducing the toxic load and increasing nutrition. Good soil is key. Biodynamics uses various treatments to potentize it. Timing is also a critical factor with cycles of farm life reinforced by cosmic rhythms. In his work at Claymont, Baillett uses paid interns, what he calls "essence level gardeners" seeking training and experience in organic agriculture. There's work with chickens, beef, orchards and various garden crops. The formal presentations at the conference feature national speakers on topics as diverse as natural gardening, child behavior, soil life, dowsing and rain making. Presentors include Joel Salatin, an author and third generation organic farmer from the Shenandoah Valley; Howard Shapiro, founder of Seeds for Change and speaker on sustainable agriculture and diversity; and internationally known dowser and energy worker, Joey Korn. A master farmer, always on the search for agricultural innovations, George Washington might have been interested in biodynamics. We'll never know. The descendants of George did reach out to Claymont for a recent Washington family reunion. They requested a recipe for potato salad. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf (304) 724-6763 csa@claymont.org ++++++++ Intern Openings Exist for the 2000 season! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 25 03:43:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA20432 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 03:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA14212; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 03:40:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA14037 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 03:35:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.67.76] (r-67.76.alltel.net [166.102.67.76]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id CAA11226 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 02:36:55 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 02:36:55 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Calcium Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2135 >Hi - I have been reading this list for a while, but this is my first >submission, so let me introduce myself. My name is Harvey Armstrong, and I >live on a homestead (20 acres) on the north end of Kootenay Lake, in BC, in >western Canada. I was raised on a farm, and have gardened all my life >(organically) but have never tried to make my living as a farmer. Seeing my >father and many others of his generation driven out of farming by a large >feed company (General Mills, in the US) didn't make me want to try it. I >became interested in BD because of genetic engineering, thinking somehow >that BD might offer a counterforce to the horror of GE. >My question is quite prosaic: I bought a bag of lime the other day, >thinking to use it in my compost piles. What I purchased was 'hydrated >lime', with warnings concerning its corrosive nature. Should I refrain from >using this in my compost pile? Is it the same as 'quicklime'? What is >hydrated lime, anyway, and if its not suitable for agricultural use, what >is? > >Harvey Dear Harvey, I believe quicklime, or un-slaked lime, is pure CaO and is NOT hydrated. It is more corrosive then hydrated lime. Yet quicklime is mentioned in Steiner's agriculture lectures as especially beneficial when added to compost piles--presumably to piles which have not had the digestive benefits of manure in them. It catches up nitrogen compounds such as amino acids and keeps them from having to oxidize when the proteins break down. Steiner describes this as the astrality (nitrogen) in the pile avoiding the detour through the etheric (oxygen). I haven't been able to buy quicklime here in Georgia. It is very corrosive and I can see why Steiner would especially recommend it for the reason cited above. It would be very fast acting. Yet hydrated lime is sure to also be quite good. Anyway I'm trying it and might be able to let you know in the future. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 25 06:01:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA21065 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 06:01:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA19343; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 05:58:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA19270 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 05:57:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.67.76] (r-67.76.alltel.net [166.102.67.76]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id EAA11922 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 04:58:14 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 04:58:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0.eed554b0.2542bc07@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: farm certification Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2136 > If you are interested in Anne's reponse why not ask her? Hmmm. M Levine's >response might sound like a Willis' one....perhaps a Willis pseudonym??? >Maybe I am tripping? I was almost certain there would be a intelligent >response to the current state and suggested certification standards given in >Letter #1 and 2 posts. Is the New Zealand, Georgia, and Shepardston triangle >awake? Sorry, Have to sleep sometime. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 25 08:31:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA22166 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24925; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24681 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:22:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.57] (pm3shep4-163-171.intrepid.net [209.190.163.171]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA10344 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:23:48 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991025102354.007d09d0@metz.une.edu.au> References: <380FA2A7.6326@globalnet.co.uk> <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:25:08 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: sugars/amazake Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2137 >So does anyone have a recipe on how to make amazake? Deanna I believe the innoculant is called 'koji.' I don't think you can make it without the innouclant. I think 'Mountain Ark' sells koji on-line. The koji would contain the recipe, which w.b. nothing more than sweet brown rice, koji and heat. -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 25 08:31:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA22180 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:31:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25009; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:27:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24686 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.57] (pm3shep4-163-171.intrepid.net [209.190.163.171]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA10358 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:23:53 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <0.eed554b0.2542bc07@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:27:35 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: farm certification Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2138 >> If you are interested in Anne's reponse why not ask her? Hmmm. M Levine's >>response might sound like a Willis' one....perhaps a Willis pseudonym??? >>Maybe I am tripping? I was almost certain there would be a intelligent >>response to the current state and suggested certification standards given in >>Letter #1 and 2 posts. Is the New Zealand, Georgia, and Shepardston triangle >>awake? > >Sorry, > >Have to sleep sometime. > >Hugh I did speak with Anne yesterday. Not about things substantive, but to tell her that we will be applying for DEMETER certification here this coming season. She was more relaxed and beatific than I've ever seen her. The Demeter display at The Natural Products Expo was exceptional, featuring Frey and other Demeter products. Later -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 25 08:31:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA22165 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25043; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:27:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24693 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:22:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.57] (pm3shep4-163-171.intrepid.net [209.190.163.171]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA10376 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:23:58 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991025101226.0079f7b0@metz.une.edu.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19991022215000.008f9100@mail.mobilixnet.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:28:32 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Horsetail Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2139 >Horsetail is wonderful for strengthening finger nails (and toe nails too!) >as well as thickening a head of hair. In another life time I had a health >food shop. One of the girls I had helping me had a problem with losing her >hair as well as having very weak finger nails. I used to make pots of tea >from various herbs which the staff would drink throughout the day. At one >stage when Claire was working and drinking the tea she noticed a huge >improvement in her nails as well as her hair becoming thicker and >healthier. I regard it as a Wonderful herb. Unfortunately in Australia we >can no longer buy it from a nursery as it has become a "noxious weed". >Deanna Deanna - Tell me more about what was in your tea pots! -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 25 08:33:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA22195 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:33:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25181; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:29:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24912 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:26:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.57] (pm3shep4-163-171.intrepid.net [209.190.163.171]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11104 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:28:09 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:35:13 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD certification Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2140 I have been doing some work on certification for a university (University of Western Sydney, NSW, Australia) research unit which should be completed by 5th November. If anyone is interested - and I have found this page conversation useful and referred to it, thank you Patrick (as in patandliz - if you put your family name on the page I will reference you in fully !!) and Hugh Lovell - let me know and I will email you a copy.  hmackay@ozemail.com.au It will be about 5000 words so I won't post it here !!! I am chair of the Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association in Australia (BDFGAA) and we currently do not do any certification.  Our members who want certification get it through the organic certification schemes to agreed BIODYNAMIC standards - not demeter. After 10 yearrs of this we are getting more requests to get involved in certification as there is a certain amount of dissatisfaction with the present options.  Our only condition is that we will not do anything that is just a reskinning of an old model. No mileage in that. Hence my using this as part of some university work. Independent of my uni work any suggestions gratefully received.  The work will go on after 5th November. A very wet Biodynamic Short Course for Beginners was held last weekend in the Hunter Valley of NSW by the Hunter Biodynamic Group.  25 new people and good to see and experience the regional group building up an enthusiasm through having locals prepared to share their experiences - not all the answers.  Terry Forman, our national adviser, presents the issues very clearly revealing a depth of insight from practice and study of the Agriculture Course.  John Priestly, a local citrus and beef producer, speaks with all the experience of a 3rd generation organic farmer,  the enthusiasm of a new bd practitioner - still after man years, the soul of a gentleman and a wit as sharp as the Australian sun.  I was glad to be invited. Aye Hamish *********************************************************** Hamish MackayMetaplan Projects Ltd117 Walker Cres,    NARRABUNDAH   ACT   2604AustraliaPh: + 61 2 6260 6539     Fax: + 61 2 6260 6540 ******************************************************************************** ************************************* Hamish MackayMetaplan Projects Ltd117 Walker Cres,    NARRABUNDAH   ACT   2604AustraliaPh: + 61 2 6260 6539     Fax: + 61 2 6260 6540 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 25 13:12:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27042 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15177; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:06:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14802 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:03:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.216] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.216]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FK600IAE70DAJ@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:53:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:04:15 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: BD Compost question In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.19991025102354.007d09d0@metz.une.edu.au> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <380FA2A7.6326@globalnet.co.uk> <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id NAA14809 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2141 In Allan's conference there was a demonstration on making BD compost by Jeff Poppen. At the site, in addition to the new pile, there was a pile of mature compost where he put some old preps, even though the compost was ready for use. My question: can you do that ?, I am not questioning Jeff's methods, but it was unclear to me if he did it just to demonstrate where to place each prep, or to "BD activate" the pile. In my place I have about four tons of non BD cooked compost and I will love to turn it to BD by adding the preps. Any comments or sugestions ? (ps Jeff said that he was going to sign in BD-Now, are you here now Jeff ?) Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 25 13:36:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27487 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18774; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:32:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from runningman.mobilixnet.dk ([195.78.82.41]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18192 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:28:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from carol (dialin-108-239.mobilixnet.dk [212.97.201.239]) by runningman.mobilixnet.dk (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA01436 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:30:15 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991025094542.00901cb0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> X-Sender: mob34587@mail.mobilixnet.dk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:45:42 +0200 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Carol Jensen Subject: Re: Horsetail In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991025101226.0079f7b0@metz.une.edu.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19991022215000.008f9100@mail.mobilixnet.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2142 At 10:12 25-10-1999 +1000, you wrote: >Horsetail is wonderful for strengthening finger nails (and toe nails too!) >as well as thickening a head of hair. In another life time I had a health >food shop. One of the girls I had helping me had a problem with losing her >hair as well as having very weak finger nails. I used to make pots of tea >from various herbs which the staff would drink throughout the day. At one >stage when Claire was working and drinking the tea she noticed a huge >improvement in her nails as well as her hair becoming thicker and >healthier. I regard it as a Wonderful herb. Unfortunately in Australia we >can no longer buy it from a nursery as it has become a "noxious weed". >Deanna > Noxious it is, but still so useful. Can you buy the dried herb? Carol ----------------------------------- Webmasters! You need help! Read my article "Grammar for Webmasters" at ------------------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 25 13:36:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27498 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:36:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18711; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18100 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:28:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-02.Portal-03.ap.net [207.44.186.67]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA28561 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <38149375.5AC2BE6B@ap.net> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:29:26 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: FWD from Ferdinand (Rearing Cows with BD Preps) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2143 Dear Allen: Is there an e-mail or reg. mail address you can post for Ferdinand Vondruska? Thanks/davidi/whirlderv@ap.net Allan Balliett wrote: > For your readers from Ferdinand > > Dear Allan, > > This is a letter to a friend who is responsible for the BD Newsletter in > British Columbia. > > The contribution re: Cows and winter, may be of interest to you. > > Dear Laurence, > > It falls me heavy (es faellt mir schwer) to write an article that is > almost devoid of BD-spirituality. Already in 1911 Dr. Steiner said more > than what we are daring to say these days. I find that if we say what we > know i.e. what we have experienced, we can say anything (or almost) and > the people will follow. Of course, it will cause difficulties if one has > to ‘assemble’ Steiner’s ideas and has not own experience. I know people > who are outstanding Steiner-Legoinaer. They take a sentence out of Dr. > Steiner’s lecture and add it to another sentence of another lecture. > Then, they unite the two with a sentence of, yet, another sentence (some > do it even on paper…!) while a large group does it (rather > unconsciously) when giving a lecture or while teaching Anthroposophy. > This, in my opinion, is ludicrous. > > Since Dr. Steiner’s death 75 years have gone into the ‘Eimer’ and he was > of the firm believe that, by the year 2000, many, if not most, would > have a good basis in the practical application of reincarnation (to KNOW > where I come from) and also in BD. Yet, we are barely able to believe > what was said in 1924…..! What a mess we are in. Taking 6 000 000 000 > people, Anthroposophy has barely made an impact, if you ask me. Of > course, some old fathers will say that somewhere in the world > Anthroposophy is kicking and growing. Well, so be it. But neither > politically nor medically nor in the world of finance, farming and > schooling (perhaps there the most) has Anthroposophy made a large > impact. If you are an Anthroposophist you may think, of course, that the > whole world is talking about it (because you have reduced your world to > that particular view….). If, on the other hand, you are going out there, > into the world where Nestle is making baby food, or Novartis is > constructing new plants or Krupp is making Titanium etc. Anthroposophy > is not only not known it is not even born. > > I believe that the cause of this is the fact that Anthroposophists do > not dare to do what Dr. Steiner asked them (and us), to do. To develop > the third eye, to develop the etheric seeing and to come to very clear, > scientific conclusions. > > If we do not develop the etheric seeing (and it is really easy) we will > constantly be some months or years behind modern science. We will never > be able to say anything profound or conclusive before science has > already done it. Like scared rabbits we are running around the gene > engineered cabbage patch trying to convince (at least each other) that > BD will find a solution to the somewhat disformed Kapbatsch…. > > Yet, I will try to say something more simple (or better write it) so > that the (unknown) members of (also) ur Society, will learn more about > BD. > > Here is my article: > > Rearing cows with BD Preparations. > > For any farmer the winter months represent a real challenge when he has > to keep his animals tightly penned in. Hoof diseases, the runs, > arthritis, pneumonia etc. etc. are only a few illnesses that may > ‘befall’ his animals. In addition, new born calves are putting an > additional strain on the mother cows capacity. > > I believe that I have found a way of getting my cows through the winter > without any of the above – actually without any illnesses at all. > > Here are a few hints: > > By the beginning of October (Coastal BC, 7+’ of rain during the winter) > the cows have to come in. (Damage to the fields, swamp, cold, etc. etc.) > > Some farmers may have put their animals on a concrete slab – this truly > drains away the animal’s warmth. > > We have put several truck loads of coarse sand (here it is called bird’s > eye, about 4 – 7mm diameter – do not go larger or smaller!!) in to the > cow pen so that a 1 – 1.5’ sand bed is being created. In this way any > rain or water can run away. Best, put a hard layer of crush underneath > if you are on clay and slope it a bit. This sand will grind the hooves > and grind away any rot or fungi etc. The cow droppings will, now, > happily fall onto the sand. In our place, we remove it. It can be done > with a special device for larger area or by rake and special shovel if > you have a herd of less than 15 cows (which is possibly rare). The > manure that you collect goes onto the compost. But there is still enough > left in the sand to imbue it with that special fertility which you will > need in the spring. Now, urine will fall into the sand as well. Again, 1 > – 2 weekly spraying with Barrel Compost throughout the winter. > > One more point which I almost forgot to mention. > > The cows love to sleep on the sand. It reflects the warmth (of their own > body!) - and they are always dry underneath. If one cow stepps (by > mistake) onto the other one's food etc. it does not cause fractures, > wounds etc. as the body can move (in the soft sand). I often tested the > warmth of the sand and, even after an hour, the area where the cows were > laying is still warm. Further, the ground does not get hard (sand does > not freeze) and does not break their hooves. In areas where you have > frozen clay, you often get cows with badly broken hooves due to sharp > edges. And last, but not least, it is a joy to walk in the soft sand > when you pay them your daily visits. They love to run in it and do not > slip!!! Calves have a field day and run like mad - that's what you need > to get that badly needed winter exercise for them. > > By spring, the cows go out onto the field (if) – otherwise, the > procedure can continue. Then, when the cows are gone, we load the sand > (that is full of good stuff: N, P, K (mixed with the Barrel Compost) > and take it to the field. The growth is excellent (for grass fields). If > you cannot take it to the fields, you can seed your cow pen with almost > any vegetable crop you wish to produce. We had outstanding crops of > Cabbage, Potatoes, Tomatoes, Cauliflower, Broccoli etc. > > Due to the Barrel Compost’s activity during the winter, most of the > droppings and urine that has fallen into the sand have been turned into > fine compost. > > Barrel Compost is a special product developed by Maria Thun in Germany. > It contains all BD preparations. It can be bought from C-Dar World > Forest Foundation in small and large quantities. > > Ferdinand Vondruska > > -- > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > =-=-=-=-=-= > > C-DAR HOUSE - a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest > into an understanding > of its soul through the arts. In collaboration with C-Dar World Forest > Foundation; a fully > registered Canadian charity based on the philosophy of Dr. Rudolf > Steiner > C-Dar WFF: Learning to understand and serve the rhythms, cycles and > formative forces that sustain > the forest" Fax Canada 604 898-1512 or call 604-898-5511, Reg# BN 89103 > 0348 RR0001. Please visit our > Website at:www.c-dar.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 25 13:50:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27827 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20611; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:46:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA20288 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.57] (pm3shep3-163-130.intrepid.net [209.190.163.130]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA20435 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:44:49 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38149375.5AC2BE6B@ap.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:52:07 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: FWD from Ferdinand (Rearing Cows with BD Preps) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2144 I think you can send email to Ferdy through the website: www.c-dar.com -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 25 16:44:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01860 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:44:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA10547; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:38:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10454 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:38:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d151.infoserve.net [199.175.157.151]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA20579 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000801bf1f29$fc872a20$979dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: OFF / Schmeizer vs Big M./ GEN10-25 Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:46:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2145 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Monday, October 25, 1999 8:06 AM Subject: GEN10-25 >Comment from "NLP Wessex" regarding the following >article: The National Farmers Union (NFU) of England and Wales, has until >now been one of the few farming unions across the globe to have engaged in >pro-actively promoting GM technology. > >Following talk of a 'conceivable' global rejection of GM crops at a >National Farmers Union conference last week, even Bob Fiddaman their >number-one spokesman and enthusiast on this subject appears to be more or >less admitting the hopeless situation for the future of GMOs. > > >Farmers Weekly 22 October 1999 > >'GMs consumer-unfriendly...' > >AN INFLUENTIAL farmer involved with the introduction of genetically >modified crops has warned that consumers are likely to remain unconvinced >of their benefits. > > The controversy over GM food shows little sign of ending, said Bob >Fiddaman, NFU representa- tive on the Supply Chain Initiative for Modified >Agricultural Crops, the pro-GM body set up by farm- ers and the industry to >oversee the introduction of GM crops. > >......... > >GMO-FREE LIVESTOCK FEED MAY BE NEXT BIOTECH ISSUE >October 22, 1999 >Reuters >Emily Kaiser >CHICAGO -- As European consumers balk at food made from genetically >modified crops, industry analysts were cited as saying livestock feed may >be the next flash point in the debate over whether such products are safe >for the environment and human consumption. > >........ > >next article posted by MichaelP > >Subject: About Percy Schmeiser v. Monsanto > >see http://www.fightfrankenfood.com/ > >Who's Our "Man of the Hour" ? >Percy Schmeiser - The Gutsy Canadian Farmer Who Dares Take on Monsanto > >by Joanne Stephenson joanne@inetex.com http://www.inetex.com/joanne > >Speaking in an overflowing auditorium October 21, Percy Schmeiser, a farmer >and Mayor of Bruno, Saskatchewan, had the attention and sympathies of 250 >concerned citizens at the Harbour Towers Hotel in Victoria. Accompanied by >Lynn Hunter, ex-MP for the British Columbia New Democratic Party and >presently a fish aquaculture specialist with the David Suzuki Foundation, >he spoke to a hushed crowd of citizens brought together by C.A.S.E.S (the >Citizens Action to Save the Environment Society). CASES is the one of the >best known environmental groups in Victoria, headed by veteran activists >Derek and Gwen Mallard. > >Mr. Schmeiser's talk was at most revealing, shocking, and anything but >comical as he described measures taken by Monsanto to bring legal action >against him for allegedly growing a genetically modified canola crop >without ever having purchased seed, nor signing a contract. A proud farmer >of 40 years whose expertise grew out of life experience while picking up >tips from the customers/farmers who frequented his day job as a farm >equipment dealer, Percy was darned proud of his seed. > >As he tells it, in 1948, Monsanto reps came out with DDT to control wild >mustard weed abundantly growing on the Prairies. The reps said that it >would kill all the weeds and that's the same line being used now. Monsanto >adverts suggest to "Spray 'Roundup' just before harvest" to sell more >wheat, peas, and barley. By spraying on low-lying areas and hills, Roundup >causes the field to evenly ripen, but also kills the germination of next >year's crop. > >This year, Percy had to buy new seed to replace his contaminated 1400 >hundred acres. > >This fall, the Barley Grower's Association refused to buy barley sprayed >with Roundup. Over 1/2 the countries worldwide won't buy genetically >engineered Canola. Since the Canadian Government has allowed the growing >of these crops, Schmeiser asks, "Why should these (other) farmers be >penalized?" for the mistakes being made on neighbouring land. > >And then there's the issue of the lawsuit. He states that not only did he >never attend a meeting for the purpose of purchasing seeds from Monsanto, >he never purchased seed, nor signed a contract (which would have occurred >at the time of purchase). He hasn't even spoken to any of their reps. > >Since the big M could not bring forth a hard-copy contract as proof, they >have since abandoned the claim that Schmeiser signed a contract. What they >are saying, however, is that anyone caught with their seed in their crop is >guilty of infringing upon their patent. And this is how they're trying to >get Schmeiser. > >Monsanto advertizes that genetically altered canola can be sprayed. Mr. >Schmeiser says that while it may be cheaper the first year, >cross-pollination from the crop increases by 30% a year, meaning four to >five times as much pesticide is needed to control weeds on subsequent >crops. In the end, GE crops are no bargain for farmers, many of whom now >fear for their livelihood, and some, like Schmeiser, fear for their lives. >(He takes an armed guard with him while traveling in his truck.) > >What takes place to encourage well-meaning farmers throughout North America >to consider planting such a environmentally questionable crop in the first >place? Farmers are first invited to a meeting attended by an array of >high-pressure salesmen. They are then told something along the lines of, >"We'll sell you the seed, you sign our contract, but you must sell the seed >back to us and buy it again next year." > >There is a $15 "technology charge" to accompany the spiel, and for every >year thereafter. After the farmer succumbs to purchase, the farmer must >sign a contract stating that Monsanto has the right to tread upon their >land for 3 years following to check on whether or not their seed is >growing. This is done to avoid infractions and doesn't take into >consideration occurances of cross-pollination. > >It should also be mentioned that Monsanto has the right not only to its >patented seed technology, but legally owns the plants and profits from that >crop. "It doesn't matter how genetically modified seed got on anybody's >land," say Schmeiser, "...they say they have the gene. They have a patent >on the gene. Now, they're trying to come in the back door. They have >complete control over that plant, that seed. Monsanto says, 'It's ours...' >We don't have rights left!" > >In Saskatchewan and Alberta, if chemical spray from a neighbouring crop >pollutes adjacent land, the farmer has the right to sue. But you can't sue >for genetic pollution from a genetically engineered crop. > >What if a farmer is caught with patented seed? If the farmer has the >unlucky experience of getting caught, he or she is fined the dollar value >of the crop, plus has to sign a trade non-disclosure agreement regarding >the incident. Farmers are then told to keep quiet about the infraction. > >But that deal works only one way: Monsanto's way. Having been caught with >his seeds in the soil, one innocent and unsuspecting farmer was caught >mixing leftover GM soybean seeds with next year's crop. Someone squealed >on him. It cost him his $37,000 crop. After signing the trade >non-disclosure agreement and being told to keep it quiet, he was more than >a little surprised to hear his name mentioned two days later in a Monsanto >radio ad threatening other farmers. The company had broadcast news of the >infraction for the world to hear, although he was legally bound to keep his >mouth shut. At this point, the farmer's hands are tied, but Monsanto can >very publically say what they like about him. > >How are these rogue farmers caught, you ask? For a time there, Monsanto >had a 1-800 number in place to take calls from neighbouring farmers. Since >an uproar occurred about that, they have since changed to encouraging >farmers attending prospect meetings to tell on their neighbours, instead. >In exchange for their telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth on >their acquaintances, neighbours, and friends, Monsanto has sweetened the >pot with a shiny, new, black-leather jacket. The line that accompanies the >ploy goes something like, "he hasn't paid his $15 technology fee, so, you >see, we're not playing on a level playing field..." Upon exchange of the >info, the reward is handed out. > >How do others get caught? Monsanto is said to have sent investigators onto >farmers' land (without their knowledge or consent) to take a sample of the >crop. One woman was surprised to see investigators at her door claiming >she had stolen Monsanto's genetically altered canola seed. They desired to >take a sample from her land. After being ordered off her property, a large >flying entity is said to have come back a week later in the form of a >helicotopter tanker distributing genetically polluted seed on her land. >She didn't speak out. > >What of cross-pollination? Mr. Schmeiser calls GE seeds genetic pollution >and weeds that destroy other crops. "GE crops are a major, major weed we >will never get rid of..." he says, "How do we get rid of it? How will we >get rid of it?" > >When Monsanto allows rightful use of their seed by farmers, their tactics >seem anything but fair. In 1996-97, the canola really flew when Roundup >Ready Canola that contained a rogue seed was sown on 65,000 acres of land. >Although a massive recall took place, some farmers had already seeded. A >dangerous gene can get out, but did it? Monsanto found out that one farmer >had 1000's of bushels of this seed still in his possession, although a good >amount had already been sown. They refuse to reveal what type of gene it >contained, or why they were so concerned. "They've been very secretive >about it." > >And now for the kicker. The Canadian Food Inspection Agency has had its >funding dollars cut so they don't have the necessary resources to test GE >seeds, or their potential affect on natural crops. Their decisions are >being based solely upon data provided by the company. > >If having chemically polluted food placed in your mouth against your will >is not enough, ponder this: Says Schmeiser, "They want control of the seed >supply...they get control of the food supply...you got control of the >country." Now, Monsanto is moving into water. It's time we told our >politicians that enough is enough and spoke out with our own financial >voice. God knows they don't need any more of our dollars. > >************************ > Taking on a giant can get expensive. To support Percy Schmeiser, a trust >has been established at "Fight Genetically Altered Food Fund Inc." CIBC >(Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce), 603 Main St. Humboldt SK Canada SOK >2AO - Phone No. (306) 682-2614 His website may be found at: >http://www.fightfrankenfood.com/ > >------- > >Joanne Stephenson is a social and environmental activist, free-lance >writer, creator of the online KIN International activist group, and the >host of The Social Activist's Site for World Peace at >http://www.inetex.com/joanne She has been actively involved in numerous >online campaigns, and sends out a weekly newsletter. You may receive a >copy of the newsletter by writing joanne@inetex.com > >.................... > >GUARDIAN (London) Monday October 25, 1999 > > >US bid to own gene rights >Shock at plan to profit from 'human blueprint' > Julian Borger in Washington > >A US biotechnology company [Celera Genomics] is seeking to patent segments >of the human genetic code in an attempt to cash in on its research before >British-led moves are implemented to prevent the "human blueprint" becoming >the private property of a few corporations. > >.......... > >INDEPENDENT (London) 25 Ocober 1999 > > >GM firms are sued for millions > >By Oliver Tickell > > >Top laws firms in the United States and Britain are to launch a series of >class actions next month in which they will demand "hundreds of millions of >dollars" in damages from the principal companies involved in the production >of genetically modified (GM) seeds and food crops. > >Targets of the actions, which are to be taken on behalf of farmers in the >United States, the European Union, Central America and India, are likely to >include Monsanto, Du Pont, AstraZeneca, Novartis and Agr-Evo. > >In a private meeting in London this week, American lawyers and senior >partners at the British law firm Mishcon de Reya discussed the action with >representatives of the Soil Association, Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace, >Christian Aid, the Confederation of European Small Farmers (CPE), >individual farmers and farmers' organisations from the US, Panama, and >India. > >The first of the actions will be launched in US courts in mid-November. >They will allege "anti-competitive behaviour" in the seed market, which is >dominated by a small number of companies, in violation of "anti-trust" or >monopoly laws. They will also cite "questionable corporate behaviour" in >pushing forward the rapid introduction of GM foods in the absence of clear >data to prove their safety. > >"There is the question of whether there is a collusive aspect of the >behaviour of the companies to co-ordinate a joint control of over the >entirety of food production," said Michael Hausfeld of the Washington >DC-based lawyers Cohen, Millstein, Hausfeld and Toll (CMHT), who was at the >meeting. > >"And there is the question of whether or not there was a concerted effort >to knowingly but prematurely force the commercialisation of GM foods when >there was information that the companies knew, or should have known, that >the safety of the foods was inconclusive. This would include charges of >possible undue influence on legislators and regulators," Mr Hausfeld said. > >As well as seeking hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation, Mr >Hausfeld indicated, his clients also wished to put the deployment of GM >foods on hold until their safety was scientifically proven, and to >establish legal liability where farmers were burdened with unmarketable >crops that were either grown from GM seed or contaminated with GM material >from neighbouring fields. > >One key issue will be the principle, backed by the US government, that GM >foods are "substantially equivalent" to non-GM foods and consequently do >not need to be tested for their safety. The idea has now been challenged by >numerous scientists who say that experiments that would justify the >"substantial equivalence" of GM foods have not been done. > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 25 17:58:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03994 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:58:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19205; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:55:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saffron.propagation.net (root@saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18939 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:52:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.149.164.206 (mx3-108.ilhawaii.net [204.149.164.251]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA16558; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:53:46 -0500 Message-ID: <3814D50B.2EA0@smallfarms.com> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:09:16 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Holiday Feast Time. References: <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> <381159A5.5DE4@globalnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2146 Pasture turkey for the table! Pumpkin pie from your pumpkins! Heirloom apples and fruit in baskets! Tell your customers and friends you have great food ready for the Holidays. Folks won't know where to find the best food available if you don't tell them. And do it in your own words. smallfarms.com, the small farmer marketing web site, is offering free, FREE!!! as they say on the internet, one year registrations to small farmers and ranchers. See http://www.smallfarms.com for more detailed information. Please remember that small farmers and ranchers do not need computers to register or use the site. (Those of you with computers, tell others about the offer and assist non-computerized farmer friends for convenience. A written Registration form is also available at the site for mailing or faxing to friends.) Feel free to forward this message and post it elsewhere. And let me know where you post it, please. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 25 18:38:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04721 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:38:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA23334; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cobalt5-fe.global.net.uk (cobalt5-fe.global.net.uk [195.147.250.165]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA23146 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:33:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p11s05a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.229.18] helo=compaq) by cobalt5-fe.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11fsh2-00000U-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:34:21 +0100 Message-ID: <3814D98E.5CE1@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:28:30 +0100 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: sugars/amazake References: <380FA2A7.6326@globalnet.co.uk> <000c01bf1bf5$ee1738e0$969dafc7@333> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2147 Allan Balliett wrote: > > >So does anyone have a recipe on how to make amazake? Deanna > > I believe the innoculant is called 'koji.' I don't think you can make it > without the innouclant. I think 'Mountain Ark' sells koji on-line. The koji > would contain the recipe, which w.b. nothing more than sweet brown rice, > koji and heat. > -Allan > igg@igg.com Just to add here is a recipe 4 cups of sweet brown rice 8 cups of spring water 1/2 cup of koji, You can also make it with Millet or Oats Wash grain, and soak in 8 cups of water overnight.Pressure cook for 45 minutes.Turn off and leave to sit in the pressure cooker for a further 45 minutes.When it is cool mix the koji into the grain by hand, and allow to ferment for 4- 8 hours.During fermentation place mixture in a glass bowl,cover with a wet cloth and place near the oven or radiator. As it ferments stir the mixture to melt the koji.After fermenting place ingredients in a pot and bring to boil,when bubbles appear turn off flame.Allow to cool. Refrigerate in a glass bowl. When it is ready give me a call I Shall come round and help you demolish it! this recipe is from Michio Kushi but one that I have done so many times and each time it tastes better! It is in essence a way of getting some ambrosial grains into yourself without excessive chewing, without using any kind of conventional sugar and apart from using it as a sweetener in cooking afterwards you can eat it as it is provided you share it,or use it to make into a drink say with some ginger juice from hand sqeezed grated fresh ginger which is a warming restorative after and hard day in the field.All the chewing if you like is done by the friendly koji and so it enters one's mouth at a stage akin to how it might be as it enters one's small intestine I hope that hasn't put any of you off.You can also buy amasake already made from yoour Organic/Macrobiotic supplier Enjoy Rex Tyler From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 25 20:47:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06167 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:47:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05297; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:42:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub2.une.edu.au ([129.180.4.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04935 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:38:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Enveng-dforster.une.edu.au (enveng-dforster.une.edu.au [129.180.135.50]) by mailhub2.une.edu.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C0484160; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:38:59 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991026104000.007dddd0@metz.une.edu.au> X-Sender: dforster@metz.une.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:40:00 +1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dianne Forster Subject: Re: Horsetail In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991025094542.00901cb0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> References: <3.0.6.32.19991025101226.0079f7b0@metz.une.edu.au> <3.0.5.32.19991022215000.008f9100@mail.mobilixnet.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2148 Yes, the dried herb is readily available. I must admit to having a small plant which I nurture as well. Haven't heard before your mention of it that it was "noxious" for the body. My information is all positive. Believe that any herbs taken in excess can cause a reaction. Everything in moderation!!!!! Deanna At 09:45 25/10/99 +0200, Carol Jensen wrote: >At 10:12 25-10-1999 +1000, you wrote: >>Horsetail is wonderful for strengthening finger nails (and toe nails too!) >>as well as thickening a head of hair. In another life time I had a health >>food shop. One of the girls I had helping me had a problem with losing her >>hair as well as having very weak finger nails. I used to make pots of tea >>from various herbs which the staff would drink throughout the day. At one >>stage when Claire was working and drinking the tea she noticed a huge >>improvement in her nails as well as her hair becoming thicker and >>healthier. I regard it as a Wonderful herb. Unfortunately in Australia we >>can no longer buy it from a nursery as it has become a "noxious weed". >>Deanna >> >Noxious it is, but still so useful. Can you buy the dried herb? > >Carol >----------------------------------- >Webmasters! You need help! Read my >article "Grammar for Webmasters" at >------------------------------------ > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 25 21:27:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06525 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:27:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09094; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wavecom.net (root@wave.sheridan.wy.us [206.54.116.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08291 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:19:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dbrown (vcn11.usrnet-1.sher.wy.vcn.com [209.193.70.116]) by wavecom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA16217 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:18:42 -0600 Message-ID: <043d01bf1f59$1fe7d260$8846c1d1@dbrown.wavecom.net> From: "Audrey Malan" To: "biodynamic list serve" Subject: indigo kids Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:23:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_043A_01BF1F1E.71E6E320" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2149 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_043A_01BF1F1E.71E6E320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For info on the book, Indigo Child: www.indigochild.com warmly, Audrey ------=_NextPart_000_043A_01BF1F1E.71E6E320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For info on the book, Indigo Child: = www.indigochild.com
warmly, = Audrey
------=_NextPart_000_043A_01BF1F1E.71E6E320-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Oct 25 23:14:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08004 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:14:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA19827; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from moose.erie.net (moose.erie.net [208.138.204.11]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19705 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erie.net (pm4-33.erie.net [208.166.66.139]) by moose.erie.net (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA07165 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <38151D3B.F174195A@erie.net> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:17:15 -0400 From: Mark Winschel Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" Subject: a better mousetrap Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2150 Has anyone had any experience getting mice to stay out of your house by making ashes out of one of them and, what? - sprinkle them around in your house or something? I know this sounds kind of funny and would probably drive the cats crazy but... Mark From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 26 04:32:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA11043 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 04:32:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA10753; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 04:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA10566 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 04:26:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-81.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.81]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA06576 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 18:27:59 +1000 Message-ID: <001e01bf1f8b$b56d0800$51431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: indigo kids? Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:23:32 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2151 Dear Pam, Sounds wonderful, is he still so dreamy? I often think some of these kids are so lucky when they come to parents who can work with them and appreciate them, but sometimes it is a case of the chicken and the egg, did they make us better parents because they demanded so much of us! I often remember thinking, it would be so easy to be like everyone else and not have to find unique and special ways to School/ heal/food etc. Not that I could have done it any other way, but I was always pushing against society norms and still do and now of course they all do! Guess that was how I got into Biodynamics! Best wishes, Cheryl. -----Original Message----- From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, 23 October 1999 12:13 am Subject: Re: indigo kids? >Cheryl, my kids were born in the 80's. We haven't been landed with any >labels, but they are both pretty bright and insightful. > >When my older boy was two, we took him to visit a fish hatchery nearby on >the Salmon River. As we left, we were making our way through the parking lot >to the car. He got a dreamy look on his face, looked up at the sky, and >said, "Next time I will be a fish." It was my first indication of what it >would be like to bring up a child who would come of age in the new >millenium. He is presently learning Reiki and has, for some time, wanted to >work with gem stones. > >Pam DeTray >pamdetray@email.com > >----------------------------------------------- >FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com >Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 26 14:49:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20927 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:49:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01481; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:45:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01063 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:42:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-03.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.36]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA16879 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3815F62A.BC76D10A@ap.net> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:42:51 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: indigo kids? References: <001e01bf1f8b$b56d0800$51431ccb@cherylke> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2152 Cheryl Kemp wrote: > Dear Pam, Sounds wonderful, is he still so dreamy? I often think some of > these kids are so lucky when they come to parents who can work with them and > appreciate them, but sometimes it is a case of the chicken and the egg, did > they make us better parents because they demanded so much of us! I often > remember thinking, it would be so easy to be like everyone else and not have > to find unique and special ways to School/ heal/food etc. Not that I could > have done it any other way, but I was always pushing against society norms > and still do and now of course they all do! Guess that was how I got into > Biodynamics! > Best wishes, > Cheryl. > -----Original Message----- > From: Pam DeTray > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Saturday, 23 October 1999 12:13 am > Subject: Re: indigo kids? > > >Cheryl, my kids were born in the 80's. We haven't been landed with any > >labels, but they are both pretty bright and insightful. > > > >When my older boy was two, we took him to visit a fish hatchery nearby on > >the Salmon River. As we left, we were making our way through the parking > lot > >to the car. He got a dreamy look on his face, looked up at the sky, and > >said, "Next time I will be a fish." It was my first indication of what it > >would be like to bring up a child who would come of age in the new > >millenium. He is presently learning Reiki and has, for some time, wanted to > >work with gem stones. > > > >Pam DeTray > >pamdetray@email.com > > > >----------------------------------------------- > >FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com > >Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com > > Much OLDER now. A different perspective: Consider that time is man's invention, inconvenient at best. Consider that people at all ages are wonderfully awake. Consider that its not them, its us. Its what "we " notice that our parents didn't and our grandparents didn't. I didn't speak to the elementals, I just stood out in their power, drenched with lightening falling everywhere in east coast summer thunderstorms and I felt so good. I was blessed that another kid in my tenement was equally drawn - Joey Fanelli where are you now. Who would I tell. I was never at a loss for words but the people in my life were at a loss for ears. God was a stranger. No one I ever encountered growing up ever used the word God with a smile on their face. Not rabbis, not priests, not teachers, not the reform or the orthodox. But the little girls who went to , religious school swore to me that I personally killed Jesus. Sister told them so. Animals were made in Zoos. Fish were mostly mysterious. And the forest was a tree in a vacant lot. Spirit was yet everywhere but not for us. Imaginary friends were bad enough; expressing emotions? feelings? flights of fancy? Nobody even used the word Love. Can you imagine? Indigo kids indeed. Let all the colors bloom and those of the survivors will smile in our secret memories and be thankful that our peers have awakened to God's continuing gift. Think about it. Cheers, :o) davidi. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 26 17:00:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23799 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA16594; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:56:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16484 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip040.computer.net [140.186.252.40]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA00321 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:57:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:58:31 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OT_Under Antarctica, Clues to an Icecap's Fate-From the NYTImes Message-ID: <9C6CE595334ED837852568160072F07B.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2153 >From the NYTimes today; if you have access to a paper or library, it is certainly worth a look to see these awesome satellite photos. Shades of conversations gone by in this forum! JSherry ---------------------------------------------------- October 26, 1999 Under Antarctica, Clues to an Icecap's Fate By MALCOLM W. BROWNE The beautiful swirls, tracery and arabesques gracing a collection of radar pictures of Antarctica made public last week would be worthy of exhibition by a gallery of abstract art. But more important, they contain clues collected by a Canadian-American satellite that are expected to help in forecasting the fate of low-lying parts of the world, including Bangladesh, the Netherlands and even New York City. Environmentalists are keenly interested in Antarctica because of the possibility that some of its gigantic ice cap, which contains about 90 percent of the world's ice, could slide into the sea. If just part of the ice cap --the West Antarctic Ice Sheet -- should do this, the global sea level would swiftly rise by about 17 feet, inundating coastal regions everywhere with catastrophic consequences for humanity. Now, though, new images from the Canadian-American satellite reveal a mechanism at work in the ice streams of the vastly larger East Antarctic Ice Sheet that might allow it to slide rapidly into the ocean, with potentially serious consequences for mankind. Glaciologists do not expect a catastrophe any time soon, nor are they even sure whether Antarctica as a whole is shedding ice at a dangerous rate. But there is evidence that the planet's atmosphere is warming, and that global warming is causing the retreat of glaciers. There is also evidence that the earth has undergone large temperature changes in the past, some of them very abrupt, within a few dozen or a few hundred years. Rapid global warming, scientists surmise, could have a dramatic effect on the planet's ice caps, especially the one covering Antarctica. ANTARCTICA Related Articles Global Warming Not to Blame for Melting of Huge Ice Sheet (Oct. 12, 1999) Russians Scale Back Research at South Pole (Aug. 31, 1999) Antarctica: As Gorgeous and Deadly Today as Ever (April 4, 1999) In an Antarctic Desert, Signs of Life in the Simplest of Forms (Feb. 3, 1998) Where Heroes Camped, Ancient Cornmeal and Penguins (Jan. 27, 1998) Interactive Satellite Image Canadian Space Agency: RADARSAT. Today @ NASA. Byrd Polar Research Center. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Antarctica has been frequently photographed from satellites and aircraft, but in visible light the continent is a largely featureless expanse of glaring white snow covering a thick layer of ice. By contrast, radar can penetrate clouds and the snow-covered ice surface to reveal subtle contours and shapes that are otherwise invisible. The radar pictures generated from data sent to earth by the Canadian-built Radarsat satellite, which can discern objects only a few meters in size, mark the first time that the entire continent has been imaged in fine enough detail to reveal even buried tracks left by snow tractors four decades ago. "Never before have we had a holistic view of the entire continent," said Dr. Ghassem Asrar, associate administrator for earth sciences at the Washington headquarters of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. "Radarsat and other new satellites are opening a new window on Antarctica." The most important discoveries yielded by Radarsat, project officials and scientists say, concern Antarctica's network of ice streams -- immense rivers of ice that channel their way through surrounding ice and rock like toothpaste squeezed from a tube. The new satellite data reveals that these streams travel enormous distances at speeds up to 3,000 feet per year -- 100 times faster than the flow of surrounding ice. One network of ice streams that drains the West Antarctic Ice Sheet (due south of South America) carries 19 cubic miles of ice into the sea every year, data from Radarsat showed; this is equivalent to burying Washington, D.C., under 1,700 feet of ice every year. Dr. Kenneth C. Jezek, a glaciologist at the Byrd Polar Research Center of Ohio State University, a lead scientist on the Radarsat project, said his group counted about 30 ice streams in the new pictures of the Antarctic continent, many of them previously unknown. Radarsat was able to image these streams by recording their effects on the surface of ice above them -- crevasses, shear bands and other features. Even rocky hills and protuberances lying under a two-mile thickness of ice left subtle traces on the surface ice, which were imaged by Radarsat. Among the hidden features imaged by the Radarsat pictures was Lake Vostok -- a liquid-water lake, 140 miles long and 30 miles wide, that lies under the East Antarctic Ice Sheet. The smoothness of the lake's surface is mirrored by a corresponding smoothness of the surface ice two miles above it. Scientists believe that the lake has been sealed off from the outer world for a million years and may contain organisms very different from any found elsewhere. But before punching a drill through the ice into the lake, scientists are seeking a sure way of preventing contaminants from entering the lake along with the drill. "One of the biggest surprises," Dr. Jezek said in an interview, "was that ice streams flowing through the East Antarctic ice sheet extend for great distances into the very center of the continent -- in some cases, more than 500 miles from the coast. "This means that East Antarctica, like West Antarctica, seems to have a mechanism for rapidly moving ice from the interior to the coastal sea." This is potentially bad news. Previously, scientists had believed that the East Antarctic Ice Sheet was locked into place atop the continent's bed rock, incapable of rapid shifts of ice toward the sea. Antarctica's ice streams are believed to be propelled by two mechanisms. In the case of West Antarctica, the dominant mechanism is thought to be the removal of frictional stress by lubrication of the ice sliding seaward over bed rock. Geothermal and volcanic heating as well as atmospheric warming apparently maintain a layer of liquid water and mud between the ice sheet and underlying rock, allowing the ice to slide fairly freely. The other mechanism, which may be important for the transport of ice from East Antarctica, is "glaciological static head pressure" -- pressure exerted by the steeply sloping two-mile thickness of ice covering East Antarctica. Evenly distributed over the region this pressure would cause only slow movement, but if ice is being channeled into fast streams, as now appears to be the case, the transport of ice could be much more rapid, Dr. Jezek said. But the behavior of ice streams and the coastal ice shelves into which they flow is complex and unpredictable. The Fimbul Ice Shelf (along the Princess Martha Coast) is retreating in some places and advancing in others, Dr. Jezek said. The Fimbul Ice Shelf interests glaciologists because it is at about the same latitude as ice shelves along the Antarctic Peninsula, which are clearly retreating. Because the Fimbul shows no such trend, the waxing and waning of glaciers seems to depend on other factors besides latitude. "There are mixed signals almost everywhere you turn, with little consistent pattern. That's why it's important to measure ice movement in many different places at different times, to gauge overall effects," Dr. Jezek said. Planning for Radarsat began in 1980 and took many years to reach fruition. Canada was interested in building a high-resolution radar satellite mainly to monitor shipping channels in the high Arctic. After years of negotiation between NASA and the Canadian Space Agency, NASA agreed to launch the satellite and provide software and data analysis in exchange for access to some of the data produced by the satellite. Also, American officials insisted that the satellite make at least two imaging scans of Antarctica. Finally, on Nov. 4, 1995, Radarsat was launched from Vandenberg Air Force Base, in California, into a polar orbit 500 miles high, and began scanning the earth. But it was not until 1997 that Canadian controllers completed a difficult rotation of the satellite putting Antarctica into full view. Then, during 18 days in September and October of that year, Radarsat carried out its monumental scan of the white continent. But acquisition of the data gathered by Radarsat took time, and the Vexel Corporation of Boulder, Colo., needed time to develop the software needed to generate a mosaic of the entire continent from many small images made from different angles and orientations of the satellite. Some of the spectacular pictures extracted from data processed during the last two years by the Byrd Polar Research Center -- the fruits of the $600 million Radarsat project -- were released last week by NASA and the Canadian Space Agency. One of the techniques used to determine the speeds and directions of ice flow was interferometry, in which separate images of the same subject were made by Radarsat on two different dates: Sept. 24 and Oct. 18, 1997. By comparing the two views mathematically, a computer program calculated the velocity and direction of ice streams at every point in their courses through surrounding ice. 'It's this kind of fine detail we need to estimate overall changes in the ice mass of the continent and to be able to make predictions," Dr. Asrar of NASA said. "We've made a start." Copyright 1999 The New York Times Company From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 26 20:05:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA27161 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 20:05:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05374; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 20:01:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA05286 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 20:01:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-042.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.142]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09716 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:43:24 +1300 Message-ID: <002301bf200e$571e55a0$9bf631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: OFF:Attn NZ'ers GE Wheat application Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:00:51 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF207B.4BD54EC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2154 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF207B.4BD54EC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0020_01BF207B.4BD54EC0" ------=_NextPart_001_0020_01BF207B.4BD54EC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Submissions to Monsantos application for GE wheat close tomorrow (28th). = If you havent sent on you have until tomorrow 5.00pm. They can be emailed to andrea.houlihan@ermanz.govt.nz THe web site below is section 38 of the HSNO act, the second part is = critical....use it! There is not enough infomation on wheat pollination....ie it is unknown = therefore unquantifiable, ask for "express recognition" of this fact in = relation to section 38 and therefore must be declined. Gareth http://rangi.knowledge-basket.co.nz/gpacts/public/text/1996/se/030se38.ht= ml ------=_NextPart_001_0020_01BF207B.4BD54EC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Submissions to Monsantos application for GE wheat = close=20 tomorrow (28th). If you havent sent on you have until tomorrow=20 5.00pm.
They can be emailed to andrea.houlihan@ermanz.gov= t.nz
THe web site = below is=20 section 38 of the HSNO act, the second part is critical....use = it!
There is not = enough=20 infomation on wheat pollination....ie it is unknown therefore = unquantifiable,=20 ask for "express recognition" of this fact in relation to = section 38=20 and therefore must be declined.
 
Gareth

http://rangi.knowledge-basket.co.nz/gpacts/public/text/1996/s= e/030se38.html ------=_NextPart_001_0020_01BF207B.4BD54EC0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF207B.4BD54EC0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Determination of applications to import or release.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Determination of applications to import or release.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://rangi.knowledge-basket.co.nz/gpacts/public/text/1996/se/030s= e38.html Modified=3D808F3B850D20BF01BC ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF207B.4BD54EC0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Oct 26 22:12:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28560 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 22:12:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA15295; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 22:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14747 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 21:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d146.infoserve.net [199.175.157.146]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA01504 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 19:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001b01bf201f$d00dbee0$929dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF/ Protest on GE Corn in Canada / Fw: GEN10-26 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 19:05:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2155 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 6:02 PM Subject: GEN10-26 >Canadians Can Say No to GE corn > >Ontario's largest exporter of corn, Casco, is right now deciding how much >GE corn and non-GE corn that it should be telling farmers to plant for the >next season. There are only a few weeks left until farmers start buying >corn seeds. > >You can contact Casco at >tel. 1-800-443-2746 >fax. 1-416-620-4488 >email. douglas.hobbs@cornproducts.com > >If you want to let Casco know how you feel about GE corn. > >Thanks > >Richard > >............ > >Regarding the following article, NutraSweet contains genetically engineered >ingredients: > >UK Daily Mail 25 October 1999 > >Iceland's Freeze on 'danger' sweetener > >Iceland stores are to ban NutraSweet from own-brand products following >fears of a possible link to cancer. > >The sweetener contains the chemical aspartame, which is used in thousands >of foods and drinks, including Diet Coke. This chemical has been the >subject of health worries for some years. These resurfaced last month when >researchers at King's College launched a three year study into the possible >effects. > >Iceland, which earlier this year became the first major store to ban GM >foods, will announce details of the move today. Managing director, Russell >Ford, said, "We are not saying aspartame is unsafe. We're simply responding >to customers' concerns." Nutrasweet dismissed the ban as 'a cynical attempt >to gain publicity amongst by creating alarm amongst customers." > >........ > >Biotech News, by Richard Wolfson, PhD > >Reprinted with permission from the November 1999 issue of Alive: Canadian >Journal of Health and Nutrition, 7436 Fraser Park Drive, Burnaby, BC V5J >5B9 > >Japan Institutes Mandatory Labelling > >According to new regulations in Japan, genetically engineered soybeans, >corn, or potatoes, or products that contain measurable quantities of these >GE ingredients will have to be labeled as such, starting April 2000. Food >companies importing these products from the U.S. will have to test for >genetic modifications and label the goods if necessary. If a product's >makeup cannot easily be determined because it contains mixed ingredients, >the producer will have to label it as possibly containing genetically >engineered ingredients. > >Gerber Baby Food Soon GE-Free > >Gerber baby food, the largest baby-food producer in the USA, is dropping >suppliers who use genetic engineering in their corn and soybean products. >The move by the parent company Novartis follows a request from the >environmental group Greenpeace for information on the company's use of >bioengineered products. The company is also trying to switch over to only >organic (pesticide- and herbicide-free) ingredients in its products. >According to Al Piergallini, President and CEO of its North American >consumer health division, "We want a mother to buy our product and have no >concerns." > >Church of England Refuses GE Trials > >The Church of England has refused to allow the UK Government to use its >land to conduct trials of genetically modified crops, pending a full-scale >inquiry into genetic modification and its "theological implications." The >church's Ethical Investment Working Group will spend several months >analyzing the issue. As a practising Christian, the Prime Minister is >expected to take particularly hard accusations by Christian Aid that >genetic manipulation of crops is unethical and will ruin the livelihoods of >poor farmers. > >Swiss Detect Contaminated Non-GE Corn from USA > >The Swiss Department of Agriculture discovered that guaranteed non-GE corn >from the USA was contaminated with genetically modified varieties. The >corn was purchased from Pioneer Hi-Bred (USA). Before the contamination >was discovered, about 200 hectares of contaminated seeds were planted, and >another 200 hectares worth of the seeds were sold. Swiss farmers burned the >fields planted with contaminated seeds. The Swiss seed importer compensated >farmers 700 Swiss Francs per hectare. > >Pesticide-Resistant Super-Bugs > >New research published in Nature shows that the GE insect-resistant crops >may produce pesticide-resistant insect pests quicker than expected. The >insect-resistant crops contain toxins (Bacillus thuringiensis or Bt) >genetically engineered into the plants. > >Scientists and farmers have long-known that sooner or later, insects would >become resistant to Bt. However, biotech experts claimed the >pesticide-resistant bugs would mate with the non-resistant bugs in >designated non-GE areas called refuges, delaying the development of >pesticide resistance. However, new research shows that the pesticide >resistant varieties have a difference life cycle, indicating that they may >be more likely to mate with each other, and produce pesticide-resistant >super-bugs in large numbers. > >Bt Corn Approvals Halted > >Both the European Commission and the Japanese government have suspended >approvals of Bt corn as a result of Cornell University research showing >that pollen from the crop may threaten monarch butterflies. In the USA, a >coalition of national environmental organizations has urged the >Environmental Protection Agency to disallow planting of Bt corn until it >can be determined that the corn pollen is not a danger to the monarch or >other beneficial or endangered insect species. > >US Patenting India's Genetic Resources > >American owned Cromak Research was recently granted a patent on a >combination of three Indian herbs, which has been used for centuries in >India for the treatment of diabetes. India's scientists are furious. "It's >outrageous", said Suman Sahai of Gene Campaign, set up to protect genetic >resources and farmers' rights. "This amounts to theft, a violation of our >indigenous knowledge. The Americans are stealing from us with impunity and >dispossessing Indians of what is rightfully theirs. It's like someone >stealing Coca-Cola's formula and getting away with it." > >Chimeraplasty > >Researchers have adapted a recently developed gene therapy technique, >called chimeraplasty, to genetically engineered plants without inserting >foreign genes. This new method involves editing the genetic code by using >a DNA/RNA fragment as a writing device to alter the DNA sequence of the >cell. Biotech promoters hope that this method might be more acceptable to >those who oppose the insertion of foreign genes into cells. However, >scientists are concerned that the impact of chimeraplasty on non-target >genes could also produce unpredictable, damaging effects. > >......... > >UK Independent >GM firms are sued for millions > >By Oliver Tickell 25 Ocober 1999 > >Top law firms in the United States and Britain are to launch a series of >class actions next month in which they will demand "hundreds of millions of >dollars" in damages from the principal companies involved in the >production of genetically modified (GM) seeds and food crops. > >............ > >October 25, 1999 > >SYDNEY, Reuters [WN] via NewsEdge Corporation : The war of words over >testing for genetically modified organisms (GMO) in food heated up on >Friday as Australian and New Zealand health ministers met to consider >introducing food labelling requirements. > >Privately-owned Genetic ID of the United States denied statements by other >scientists that tests could not identify all GM foods and did not yield >exact, quantifiable results. > >................ >24 October 1999 >GM Foods CAN Be Tested > >GM Foods CAN Be Tested Accurately and Inexpensively World's Leading GM >Laboratory Refutes Claims in Wire Service Report > >The most experienced and respected laboratory testing food for genetic >modification (GM), Genetic ID of Iowa, USA, today refuted claims made in a >wire service story that DNA tests cannot identify all GM foods and that DNA >testing does not yield exact, quantifiable results. > >"A good GM testing lab can identify every GM on the market," said John >Fagan, the molecular biologist who founded Genetic ID, "and DNA testing >through the PCR method is the most accurate way to quantify exactly how >much GM is present, even at very low levels of contamination. Every DNA >test needed to accurately label GM food is available now." > >Dr. Fagan pointed out that precise testing information is vital to allow >governments and retailers to respond to consumer demand for non-GM food. >"Without accurate and reliable testing," Dr Fagan said, "there is no way to >regulate or control GM food. And the accuracy and reliability of DNA >testing is not a matter of opinion, but of scientific fact. As a method for >quantifying GM foods, it was validated by a European Union ring trial in >1997." > >In 1996, industry sources said that no tests could identify GM foods. On >the basis of these assertions, the U.S. government told governments around >the world that no tests were possible, and GM food would have to be >accepted. In spite of such assertions, Dr. Fagan used his experience doing >DNA research for the NIH to develop the first commercial PCR tests that >could identify GM genes in crops and food products. He formed Genetic ID >and licensed the Genetic ID technology to other laboratories in Europe and >Australia, and other university and private labs began to develop their own >tests. With valid testing methods available, governments in Europe, Japan, >Korea, Australia and New Zealand began to implement labeling regulations >for GM foods. > >Now, some industry sources say that tests do exist, but add that they can't >measure all GM foods, they can't give quantitative results, and they don't >work if the lab isn't told exactly what GM variety to look for. > >"These statements are exactly the reverse of the experimental facts," said >Dr. Fagan. "A good GM lab can test for all GM crops, can give quantitative >results down to 0.01% GM contamination, and can find GM in any crop even if >it doesn't know which GM to look for. > >At Genetic ID, for example, we have an on-going research program to >maintain our ability to detect any GM variety as it comes to market. We >also give precise quantitative results so our clients know if the GM >content matches their buyer's requests. And we can find GM contamination >even if don't know which types of GM might be involved. > >For more details visit http://www.genetic-id.com > >....... > >http://www.abcnews.go.com/onair/Nightline/nl991025.html > > >>From ABC's, Nightline show > > Monday, Oct. 25, 1999, 1:30 p.m. ET > >You may not know it, but the corn flakes you ate for breakfast this morning >or the tortilla chips you munch on tonight while watching Monday Night >Football in all likelihood are made with some genetically modified corn. >After all, more than 35 percent of all corn and 55 percent of soy produced >in the United States has been genetically altered. You also may not know >it, but the spoonful of Gerber or Heinz baby food your child swallowed >today probably did not contain any genetically modified ingredients. Why? >Because these concerned major U.S. food corporations decided against using >such ingredients. > >.......... > >BUSINESS SECTION > >Crop Busters Take On Monsanto > >Backlash Against Biotech Foods Exacts a High Price > >By Justin Gillis and Anne Swardson > >Washington Post >Staff Writers > >Tuesday, October 26, 1999; Page E01 > >The face on the giant video screen looming above the hotel conference room >was drawn and ashen. Robert Shapiro, chief executive of Monsanto Co., was >admitting corporate sin to his worst adversaries. > >"We have probably irritated and antagonized more people than we have >persuaded," he told a conference organized by Greenpeace, the environmental >group. "Our confidence in this technology and our enthusiasm for it has, I >think, been widely seen--and understandably so--as condescension or indeed >arrogance." > >It was an extraordinary admission for the chief executive of one of >America's proudest companies. Shapiro promised to stop lecturing and start >listening in Monsanto's campaign to sell the world on the benefits of >genetically modified food. As a concession to his critics, he promised >never to deploy a gene dubbed "terminator" that might have protected >Monsanto's commercial interests by producing sterile seeds after one >generation. > >No company has bet more than Monsanto on genetically modified foodstuffs. >No company believed more deeply in their value--and potential >profitability. And now no company is suffering more, in terms of finances, >stock price and image, from the international debate about the safety of >those products. > >Concern about gene-altered food is spreading from Europe, where it has >bordered on panic for more than a year, to North America and Asia. >Baby-food producers in the United States, grocery chains in Europe, even a >Mexican tortilla maker have sworn off the use of genetically modified corn >and soybeans. > >Monsanto is a profitable company, thanks in part to a pharmaceutical unit >that has launched the most successful new product in the history of the >drug business. But nervousness about the long-term future of agricultural >biotechnology seems to have overwhelmed whatever short-term regard >investors might have for the company's income statements. > >Monsanto stock has lost more than a third of its value in the last 14 >months, and analysts believe that unless there's a sharp upturn in the >stock price soon, company executives could be forced into radical changes, >possibly including breaking Monsanto into pieces. That would shatter the >company's strategy of using its broad platform of genetic research to make >simultaneous headway on better crops and improved human drugs. > > > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 27 00:30:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00449 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 00:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA01132; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 00:25:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA00796 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 00:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop2.igc.org (user-33qthnh.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.198.241]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA02230 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 00:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <38168AF7.E105626B@pop2.igc.org> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 21:17:54 -0800 From: Shannan and James Johnson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF:Attn NZ'ers GE Wheat application References: <002301bf200e$571e55a0$9bf631ca@computer> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------CC21B0CA4C20420CE1219620" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2156 --------------CC21B0CA4C20420CE1219620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Gareth and Yvonne, I'm in California and haven't yet heard if GE wheat is being grown in the US. Any leads? As a practicing Catholic, my concern is a moral dilemma - the right to know my eucharist is not Genetically Modified. In Domino, James Gareth and Yvonne Bodle wrote: > Submissions to Monsantos application for GE wheat close tomorrow > (28th). If you havent sent on you have until tomorrow 5.00pm.They can > be emailed to andrea.houlihan@ermanz.govt.nzTHe web site below is > section 38 of the HSNO act, the second part is critical....use > it!There is not enough infomation on wheat pollination....ie it is > unknown therefore unquantifiable, ask for "express recognition" of > this fact in relation to section 38 and therefore must be > declined. Gareth > > > ttp://rangi.knowledge-basket.co.nz/gpacts/public/text/1996/se/030se38.html --------------CC21B0CA4C20420CE1219620 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Gareth and Yvonne,

I'm in California and haven't yet heard if GE wheat is being grown in the US.  Any leads? As a practicing Catholic, my concern is a moral dilemma - the right to know my eucharist is not Genetically Modified.

In Domino,

James

Gareth and Yvonne Bodle wrote:

 Submissions to Monsantos application for GE wheat close tomorrow (28th). If you havent sent on you have until tomorrow 5.00pm.They can be emailed to andrea.houlihan@ermanz.govt.nzTHe web site below is section 38 of the HSNO act, the second part is critical....use it!There is not enough infomation on wheat pollination....ie it is unknown therefore unquantifiable, ask for "express recognition" of this fact in relation to section 38 and therefore must be declined. Gareth

http://rangi.knowledge-basket.co.nz/gpacts/public/text/1996/se/030se38.html

  --------------CC21B0CA4C20420CE1219620-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 27 03:14:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA02576 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 03:14:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA09190; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 03:08:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA09046 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 03:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer (whan-054.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.154]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12137 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:46:04 +1300 Message-ID: <001e01bf2049$733640a0$7ff631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: OFF:Attn NZ'ers GE Wheat application Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:03:00 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF20B6.454A57E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2157 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF20B6.454A57E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear James The short answer is yes...but to what extent I couldnt say. Below are the details of Monsanto's NZ application...the last few par's = seem to be the relevant info you want. Cheers Gareth Application Code GMF99003 =20 Applicant Monsanto New Zealand Ltd =20 Purpose To import and field test, in the Canterbury region, = genetically modified, Roundup Ready Wheat, as a part of an international = development programme to evaluate wheat varities that have been = genetically modified to tolerate the herbicide Roundup. =20 Date Application Received 28 July 1999 =20 ERMA New Zealand Contact Elizabeth Beale =20 Application Executive Summary: GMF99003 (Monsanto, Roundup=AE Ready = Wheat) (Executive Summary prepared by Monsanto New Zealand Ltd) Monsanto proposes to import and subsequently field test eleven new = organisms as defined by the Act. The new organisms are identified as = Roundup Ready=AE Wheat lines 25397 variety Bobwhite, 25397 variety AC = Barrie, 25397 variety BW251, 33391 variety Bobwhite, 33391 variety = BW251, 33456 variety Bobwhite, 33456 variety BW251, 33463 variety = Bobwhite, 33463 variety BW251, 33512 variety Bobwhite and 33512 variety = BW251. The purpose of these field trials is to evaluate the agronomic = performance of eleven lines of Roundup Ready Wheat. The organism is = genetically modified wheat (Triticum aestivum) that is tolerant to the = herbicide, glyphosate. The common name for this type of wheat is = =91bread wheat=92. The nontransgenic cultivars Bobwhite, AC Barrie, and = BW251 will be included in this trial as controls. The test site will be = approximately 10,000 m2. Glyphosate is a non-selective, broad spectrum herbicide and is the = active ingredient in the commercial product, Roundup=AE Herbicide. = Roundup has been widely used in New Zealand agriculture for years. = Glyphosate exerts herbicidal activity through inhibition of the plant = enzyme, 5-enolpyruvylshikimate-3-phosphate synthase (EPSPS); thus, = blocking the biosynthesis of aromatic amino acids (Franz, et al. 1997). = This biosynthetic pathway does not exist in animals. Roundup Ready Wheat = contains a gene that encodes for a modified form of the EPSPS enzyme. = This donor genetic material was derived from an Agrobacterium species, = strain CP4. The Monsanto code name for this genetic material is CP4 = EPSPS. The protein encoded from this gene has a significantly reduced = affinity for glyphosate. Expression of the CP4 EPSPS gene and synthesis = of the CP4 EPSPS protein in Roundup Ready Wheat and its progeny provides = tolerance to glyphosate. Wheat is an important cereal grain for export and domestic consumption = in many countries throughout the world. Wheat is the number one food = grain consumed directly by humans. A significant amount of wheat is also = used for animal feed (Canada, 1999). Current agronomic practices for = weed control in wheat include tillage, preplant incorporation of grass = and broadleaf herbicides, and in-crop use of grass and broadleaf = herbicide tank mixtures. Planting of Roundup Ready Wheat will provide = farmers with the ability to control a broad spectrum of weeds using a = single product, Roundup herbicide. In addition to its superior efficacy, = Roundup has a favorable environmental profile and is of low toxicity to = animals and humans (Fed. Reg., 1998). Based on genotypic and phenotypic = observations, Roundup Ready Wheat appears to be identical to = nontransgenic wheat except for its tolerance to glyphosate. Once = approved, the Roundup Ready Wheat crops will be suitable for human and = animal consumption, the same as wheat crops grown with nontransgenic = seed. The risk of adverse consequences for either the environment or humans is = considered to be extremely low. Safety of the CP4 EPSPS protein was = ascertained by evaluating both its physical and functional = characteristics (Harrrison et al, 1996). CP4 EPSPS degrades readily in = simulated gastric and intestinal fluids, suggesting that this protein = will be degraded in the mammalian digestive tract upon ingestion as a = component of food or feed. There were no deleterious effects due to the = acute administration of CP4 EPSPS to mice by gavage at a high dose level = and CP4 EPSPS does not pose any important allergen concerns because this = protein does not possess characteristics typical of allergenic proteins. = Given the absence of an identifiable hazard associated with exposure to = this protein it is not possible to derive any quantitative estimate of = risk. Animal feeding studies have been conducted with rats, chickens, catfish = and dairy cows as part of a safety assessment program for a soybean = variety genetically modified to express the CP4 EPSPS gene (Hammond et = al, 1996) These studies were designed to compare feeding value of = glyphosate tolerant soybeans to the feeding value of the parental = cultivar from which they were derived. The results of these studies = confirmed the safety of the CP4 EPSPS protein as measured variables were = similar for animals fed glyphosate tolerant lines and the parental line. = It is our expectation that comparable results would be obtained if these = species were fed wheat carrying the same CP4 EPSPS gene. The proposed containment for these trials should minimize the risk of = gene escape and the opportunity for exposure to fish and wildlife = species. Roundup Ready Wheat test plots will be isolated from other = crops by a 6-meter border planted to nontransgenic wheat. This isolation = distance is twice as wide as that required by Canadian regulatory = agencies (See Appendix A). Incorporation of this 6-meter isolation = barrier is expected to minimize the spontaneous release of transgenic = wheat pollen outside of the test plots. The 6-meter border of isolation = will effectively minimize the potential for outcrossing between Roundup = Ready Wheat and related species grown in the same area.=20 Plant materials and grain from the 6-meter isolation will be destroyed = on site. The trial plots will be protected from bird damage during grain = filling by net. Grain from the transgenic plants will be shipped to the = United States and Canada for further study, or be destroyed on site = together with the plant materials. A decision on the fate of the grain = will be made after harvest. The field will be left fallow and monitored for one year following = harvest. Transgenic seeds that fall to the ground and become "volunteer = plants" in the following crop season and outcrossing between the = transgenic and non-transgenic wheat plants and close relatives could = transfer the CP4 EPSPS gene to non-targeted species. These risks will be = minimized by the proposed containment system. Any Roundup Ready Wheat = volunteer plants found in the field will be destroyed manually or by use = of a grass herbicide (e.g. fluazifop-p-butyl, fenoxaprop-p-ethyl, = quizalofop-p-ethyl, paraquat or clethodim). Approval of this application will allow for off-season field testing and = development work to complement field trials that have been conducted in = Northern Hemisphere countries (USA, Canada and Czech Republic). Benefits = accrued to the local economy will be those associated with the actual = costs of conducting these trials (approximately $50k U.S.). Future = economic benefits for the New Zealand economy are unknown at this time. =AE - Roundup and Roundup Ready are Registered trademarks of Monsanto = Company. -----Original Message----- From: Shannan and James Johnson To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, 27 October 1999 05:09 PM Subject: Re: OFF:Attn NZ'ers GE Wheat application =20 =20 Dear Gareth and Yvonne,=20 I'm in California and haven't yet heard if GE wheat is being grown = in the US. Any leads? As a practicing Catholic, my concern is a moral = dilemma - the right to know my eucharist is not Genetically Modified.=20 In Domino,=20 James=20 Gareth and Yvonne Bodle wrote:=20 Submissions to Monsantos application for GE wheat close = tomorrow (28th). If you havent sent on you have until tomorrow = 5.00pm.They can be emailed to andrea.houlihan@ermanz.govt.nzTHe web site = below is section 38 of the HSNO act, the second part is critical....use = it!There is not enough infomation on wheat pollination....ie it is = unknown therefore unquantifiable, ask for "express recognition" of this = fact in relation to section 38 and therefore must be declined. Gareth=20 = http://rangi.knowledge-basket.co.nz/gpacts/public/text/1996/se/030se38.ht= ml =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF20B6.454A57E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear James
The short = answer is=20 yes...but to what extent I couldnt say.
Below are the details of Monsanto's NZ = application...the last=20 few par's seem to be the relevant info you want.
Cheers
Gareth
 
 

Application Code

GMF99003

Applicant

Monsanto New Zealand = Ltd

Purpose

To import and field test, in the = Canterbury region,=20 genetically modified, Roundup Ready Wheat, as a part of an=20 international development programme to evaluate wheat = varities that=20 have been genetically modified to tolerate the herbicide=20 Roundup.

Date Application Received

28 July 1999

ERMA New Zealand Contact

Elizabeth = Beale

Application Executive Summary: GMF99003 (Monsanto, Roundup® Ready = Wheat)

(Executive Summary prepared by Monsanto New Zealand=20 Ltd)

Monsanto proposes to import and subsequently field = test eleven=20 new organisms as defined by the Act. The new organisms are = identified as Roundup Ready® Wheat lines 25397 variety Bobwhite, = 25397=20 variety AC Barrie, 25397 variety BW251, 33391 variety Bobwhite, 33391 = variety=20 BW251, 33456 variety Bobwhite, 33456 variety BW251, 33463 variety = Bobwhite,=20 33463 variety BW251, 33512 variety Bobwhite and 33512 variety BW251.

The purpose of these field trials is to evaluate the = agronomic=20 performance of eleven lines of Roundup Ready Wheat. The organism is = genetically=20 modified wheat (Triticum aestivum) that is tolerant to the = herbicide,=20 glyphosate. The common name for this type of wheat is ‘bread = wheat’.=20 The nontransgenic cultivars Bobwhite, AC Barrie, and BW251 will be = included in=20 this trial as controls. The test site will be approximately 10,000=20 m2.

Glyphosate is a non-selective, broad spectrum = herbicide and is=20 the active ingredient in the commercial product, Roundup® Herbicide. = Roundup=20 has been widely used in New Zealand agriculture for years. Glyphosate = exerts=20 herbicidal activity through inhibition of the plant enzyme,=20 5-enolpyruvylshikimate-3-phosphate synthase (EPSPS); thus, blocking the=20 biosynthesis of aromatic amino acids (Franz, et al. 1997). This = biosynthetic=20 pathway does not exist in animals. Roundup Ready Wheat contains a gene = that=20 encodes for a modified form of the EPSPS enzyme. This donor genetic = material was=20 derived from an Agrobacterium species, strain CP4. The Monsanto = code name=20 for this genetic material is CP4 EPSPS. The protein encoded from this = gene has a=20 significantly reduced affinity for glyphosate. Expression of the CP4 = EPSPS gene=20 and synthesis of the CP4 EPSPS protein in Roundup Ready Wheat and its = progeny=20 provides tolerance to glyphosate.

Wheat is an important cereal grain for export and = domestic=20 consumption in many countries throughout the world. Wheat is the number = one food=20 grain consumed directly by humans. A significant amount of wheat is also = used=20 for animal feed (Canada, 1999). Current agronomic practices for weed = control in=20 wheat include tillage, preplant incorporation of grass and broadleaf = herbicides,=20 and in-crop use of grass and broadleaf herbicide tank mixtures. Planting = of=20 Roundup Ready Wheat will provide farmers with the ability to control a = broad=20 spectrum of weeds using a single product, Roundup herbicide. In addition = to its=20 superior efficacy, Roundup has a favorable environmental profile and is = of low=20 toxicity to animals and humans (Fed. Reg., 1998). Based on genotypic and = phenotypic observations, Roundup Ready Wheat appears to be identical to=20 nontransgenic wheat except for its tolerance to glyphosate. Once = approved, the=20 Roundup Ready Wheat crops will be suitable for human and animal = consumption, the=20 same as wheat crops grown with nontransgenic seed.

The risk of adverse consequences for either the = environment or=20 humans is considered to be extremely low. Safety of the CP4 EPSPS = protein was=20 ascertained by evaluating both its physical and functional = characteristics=20 (Harrrison et al, 1996). CP4 EPSPS degrades readily in simulated gastric = and=20 intestinal fluids, suggesting that this protein will be degraded in the=20 mammalian digestive tract upon ingestion as a component of food or feed. = There=20 were no deleterious effects due to the acute administration of CP4 EPSPS = to mice=20 by gavage at a high dose level and CP4 EPSPS does not pose any important = allergen concerns because this protein does not possess characteristics = typical=20 of allergenic proteins. Given the absence of an identifiable hazard = associated=20 with exposure to this protein it is not possible to derive any = quantitative=20 estimate of risk.

Animal feeding studies have been conducted with rats, = chickens,=20 catfish and dairy cows as part of a safety assessment program for a = soybean=20 variety genetically modified to express the CP4 EPSPS gene (Hammond et = al, 1996)=20 These studies were designed to compare feeding value of glyphosate = tolerant=20 soybeans to the feeding value of the parental cultivar from which they = were=20 derived. The results of these studies confirmed the safety of the CP4 = EPSPS=20 protein as measured variables were similar for animals fed glyphosate = tolerant=20 lines and the parental line. It is our expectation that comparable = results would=20 be obtained if these species were fed wheat carrying the same CP4 EPSPS=20 gene.

The proposed containment for these trials should = minimize the=20 risk of gene escape and the opportunity for exposure to fish and = wildlife=20 species. Roundup Ready Wheat test plots will be isolated from other = crops by a=20 6-meter border planted to nontransgenic wheat. This isolation distance = is twice=20 as wide as that required by Canadian regulatory agencies (See Appendix = A).=20 Incorporation of this 6-meter isolation barrier is expected to minimize = the=20 spontaneous release of transgenic wheat pollen outside of the test = plots. The=20 6-meter border of isolation will effectively minimize the potential for=20 outcrossing between Roundup Ready Wheat and related species grown in the = same=20 area.

Plant materials and grain from the 6-meter isolation = will be=20 destroyed on site. The trial plots will be protected from bird damage = during=20 grain filling by net. Grain from the transgenic plants will be shipped = to the=20 United States and Canada for further study, or be destroyed on site = together=20 with the plant materials. A decision on the fate of the grain will be = made after=20 harvest.

The field will be left fallow and monitored for one = year=20 following harvest. Transgenic seeds that fall to the ground and become=20 "volunteer plants" in the following crop season and = outcrossing=20 between the transgenic and non-transgenic wheat plants and close = relatives could=20 transfer the CP4 EPSPS gene to non-targeted species. These risks will be = minimized by the proposed containment system. Any Roundup Ready Wheat = volunteer=20 plants found in the field will be destroyed manually or by use of a = grass=20 herbicide (e.g. fluazifop-p-butyl, fenoxaprop-p-ethyl,=20 quizalofop-p-ethyl, paraquat or clethodim).

Approval of this application will allow for = off-season field=20 testing and development work to complement field trials that have been = conducted=20 in Northern Hemisphere countries (USA, Canada and Czech Republic). = Benefits=20 accrued to the local economy will be those associated with the actual = costs of=20 conducting these trials (approximately $50k U.S.). Future economic = benefits for=20 the New Zealand economy are unknown at this time.

® - Roundup and Roundup Ready are Registered trademarks of = Monsanto=20 Company.

-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Shannan and James Johnson <shanjam@pop.igc.org>
To:= =20 bdnow@envirolink.org = <bdnow@envirolink.org>
D= ate:=20 Wednesday, 27 October 1999 05:09 PM
Subject: Re: = OFF:Attn=20 NZ'ers GE Wheat application

Dear Gareth and = Yvonne,=20

I'm in California and haven't yet heard if GE wheat is being = grown in the=20 US.  Any leads? As a practicing Catholic, my concern is a moral = dilemma=20 - the right to know my eucharist is not Genetically Modified.=20

In Domino,=20

James=20

Gareth and Yvonne Bodle wrote:=20

 Submissions to = Monsantos=20 application for GE wheat close tomorrow (28th). If you havent = sent on=20 you have until tomorrow 5.00pm.They can = be emailed=20 to andrea.houlihan@ermanz.gov= t.nzTHe web site below is section 38 = of the HSNO=20 act, the second part is critical....use it!There is not enough infomation on wheat = pollination....ie it is=20 unknown therefore unquantifiable, ask for "express=20 recognition" of this fact in relation to section 38 and = therefore=20 must be declined. Gareth=20

http://rangi.knowledge-basket.co.nz/gpacts/public/text/1996/s= e/030se38.html

 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF20B6.454A57E0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 27 05:00:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA03161 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 05:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA13351; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 04:57:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA13193 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 04:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([210.55.84.11]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991027085821.YOVN45175.mta2-rme@default> for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 21:58:21 +1300 Message-ID: <3816BA8B.27C7@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 21:40:43 +1300 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: [Fwd: Slugs added] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------63A3453645FE" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2158 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------63A3453645FE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi BD List With some help I have finally written up my notes on how to control slugs aand snails using some of Maria Thun suggestions. --------------63A3453645FE Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <3816B941.73E5@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 21:35:14 +1300 From: Rambler Reply-To: ramblerkirk@xtra.co.nz X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: m.buchler@clear.net.nz Subject: Slugs added Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Maria I was playing around with the cut copy and paste buttons and got this on to email and have since added some more notes BIODYNAMIC SLUG AND SNAIL CONTROL THAT IS WORKING I first started biodynamic growing in 1993 and had given up on half an acre of winter daffodil bulbs for the cut flower market because of slug damage, high cost of slug bait, the very wet winters and low returns. For the next two years I watched the crop being munched up by an ever increasing army of slugs and snails. By the winter of '95, I was getting short of money and we were expecting our second child in November. By now I was reading alot about biodynamics and becoming horribly confused and frustrated about how to control pests. Flowers must be perfect, free of any marks and defects - no matter how they have been grown - if they are to sell at a profit at the market. This was hard enough to do using chemical means, let alone something as new to me as biodynamic and organic methods. It was then, that in reading Maria Thun's book: Work on the Land and with the Constellations,' that I found the following: p:41 "If however, a direct attack is called for, (then) Hahnemann's principle of homeopathy, that is treating like with like, becomes useful. Rudolf Steiner suggested to let the damaging insects or whatever rot away. (We suggest dissolution in water, i.e. making a kind of liquid manure). Alternatively, one could burn them. In either case the remains of rotting or burning - should be scattered in infested areas." Later in the book, Thun describes homoeopathic methods, the need to try and get an impression of the pests' life habits in order to discover what may have led to the attack. Where direct intervention is necessary, she describes methods of potentizing and adds: "We can also use the same methods against slugs and snails by taking advantage of Moon in Crab - three sprays of D8 in the whole garden on the ground. One can also apply the residue of what was burnt without potentizing but then one needs more animals.....Using these methods one contains the different groups within their limits and prevents uncontrolled reproduction." Winter 1995 was very wet. Slug and snail weather? So, determined to try to control the animals, I collected.about 60 -70 slugs at between 7.00pm and 9.00 pm in the freezing cold on the June fullmoon and sealed them in acontainer with about 2 litres of very warm water shaking the container every time i remembered at least 2-3 times a week ....I left this to brew until just before the July full moon when the Sun was in Gemini, when I sprayed at the rate of 1 to 20 litres.. on a flower day and a leaf day again between 7 and 8 pm in the freezing cold using a torch. Heavy rain prevented a third spraying. At the same time I collected another 60 to70 slugs and put them into 2 liters of warm water for another spray the Aug. full moon. Which I did not complete due to a period of heavy rain about that time. In July 1996, the preparation, 1 litre diluted to 20 litres was sprayed three nights in a row before full moon same method as in 1995. The slug brew was by then one year old. I also collected another batch of slugs which I was going to use again in Aug . This was not completed again due to very heavy rain. I did not spray in 1997. Winter was very dry and there was not a sign of slugs. In 1998, the winter was again wet - twice the normal rainfall! But there were NO slugs evident. So again, I did not spray. At the same time many friends were complaining about slugs damaging their plants . In 1999, I plan to collect slugs with the moon in crab and make a new brew and to spray a D8 dilution three times before the full moon just before flowering again when the moon is in crab. I did not spray in the end I just let things go to see what would happen. It was interesting to note that slugs started to appear and caused some damage about 10% of the crop was damaged. As the full moon approached[ Sept 25] the slug damage increased. I finished picking about the end of Sept Talking to other people there seem to be lots of slugs around. This year was a very dry winter about half of normal rainfall. End of Oct. It has been interesting to note that slug damage to crops is on the increase on other crops around different parts of the farm. Recipe for Slugs and snails Oakleaf tea. Filled copper 2/3 full with fallen leaves added to 60 litres water which was simmered for a day, allowed to cool and poured into 1.250 litre soda water bottles and stored in a cupboard. The above recipe is what I use for spot control I use one bottle to about 10 litre of water and try and spray it 3 evenings in a row when ever I have slug/snail damage Especailly in the early days when I was waiting for the slug tea to work. I find this very useful around the vege garden and in the propagation house. Now that I have seen the results of Maria Thun suggestions I am going to try this on other pests and weed problems . Cheers Tony Robinson New Zealand --------------63A3453645FE-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 27 06:26:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA03608 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 06:26:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA16400; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 06:22:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from commando.mobilixnet.dk ([195.78.82.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA16299 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 06:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from carol (dialin-108-152.mobilixnet.dk [212.97.201.152]) by commando.mobilixnet.dk (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA59847 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:20:20 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991027113629.0089bcd0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> X-Sender: mob34587@mail.mobilixnet.dk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:36:29 +0200 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Carol Jensen Subject: Re: Horsetail In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991026104000.007dddd0@metz.une.edu.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19991025094542.00901cb0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> <3.0.6.32.19991025101226.0079f7b0@metz.une.edu.au> <3.0.5.32.19991022215000.008f9100@mail.mobilixnet.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2159 At 10:40 26-10-1999 +1000, you wrote: >Yes, the dried herb is readily available. I must admit to having a small >plant which I nurture as well. Haven't heard before your mention of it >that it was "noxious" for the body. My information is all positive. >Believe that any herbs taken in excess can cause a reaction. Everything in >moderation!!!!! Deanna > Deanna, horsetail is noxious for the garden, as it is very hard to get rid of once it spreads. And one cannot drink it indefinitely either, three days is the limit, with a week's or two week's break. Carol ----------------------------------- Webmasters! You need help! Read my article "Grammar for Webmasters" at ------------------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 27 08:21:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05211 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:21:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21620; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:14:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21374 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:09:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.148] (pm3shep3-163-124.intrepid.net [209.190.163.124]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA17209 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:10:55 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3816BA8B.27C7@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:09:59 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: [Fwd: Slugs added] Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2160 >Recipe for Slugs and snails Oakleaf tea. >Filled copper 2/3 full with fallen leaves added to 60 litres water which >was simmered for a day, allowed to cool and poured into 1.250 litre >soda water bottles and stored in a cupboard. Tony - Thanks for your efforts in this! Although we are getting frosts every night, my collards are overrun with slugs and now a few are showing up in the greenhouse beds (jeez, I also saw a bunch of slug eggs in the BC barrel yesterday :-( Sorry to be so literal, but can you clarify the above recipe a little? Are you saying: "Fill a copper vessel 2/3 full with fallen oak leaves, add 60 litres water and simmer for a full day (24hrs? 12hrs? 8 hrs?) Allow to cool and pour into mountain dew bottles and store in a dark place" Thanks! -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 27 08:34:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05369 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:34:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA22513; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:27:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA22269 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d142.infoserve.net [199.175.157.142]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA02940 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 05:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <004001bf2077$2fd5c8c0$8e9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: slug rec. Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 05:31:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003D_01BF203C.812B7A20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2161 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BF203C.812B7A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tony, Thanks for the report on slug control. M. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BF203C.812B7A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tony,
 
  Thanks for the = report on slug=20 control. M.
------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BF203C.812B7A20-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 27 10:08:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07038 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 10:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00536; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 10:00:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00427 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:59:57 -0400 (EDT) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hVMCa15805 (4396) for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 10:00:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.857ba7f8.25485f8f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 10:00:47 EDT Subject: Re: [Fwd: Slugs added] To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 41 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2162 In a message dated 10/27/99 8:15:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, igg@igg.com writes: << Recipe for Slugs and snails Oakleaf tea. >Filled copper 2/3 full with fallen leaves added to 60 litres water which >was simmered for a day, allowed to cool and poured into 1.250 litre >soda water bottles and stored in a cupboard. >> Does the copper pan add anything? Would a stainless steel pan be as good? Alan, thanks for clarifying some of my questions also. DanL From london@metalab.unc.edu Wed Oct 27 09:10:14 1999 -0400 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05959 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:10:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25103; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:03:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24925 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:01:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.190.163.148] (pm3shep3-163-124.intrepid.net [209.190.163.124]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26631; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:01:10 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:02:25 -0400 To: fjpaul@ibm.net From: Allan Balliett Subject: BIONEERS Oct 28 Roommate Needed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2163 I do have a room at Embassy Suites (right at Marin Center, site of the 1999 Bioneers Conference later this week), now I'm looking for someone to split the expense of it with me on Thursday evening. If you are interested, please contact me soon. Thanks Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA BIODYNAMICS Now! Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human wellness and development. Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 27 15:06:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13751 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:06:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10674; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:51:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09666 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:46:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip027.computer.net [140.186.252.27]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA13323 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:48:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:49:33 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: October 24, 1999 - October 30, 1999 Message-ID: <667396631C02EA418525681700676688.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA09667 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2164 Calendar of the Soul [October 24, 1999 - October 30, 1999] Thirtieth Week (October 27-November 2) There flourish in the sunlight of my soul The ripened fruits of thinking; To conscious self-assurance The flow of feeling is transformed. I can perceive now joyfully The autumn's spirit-waking: The winter will arouse in me The summer of the soul. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Es spriessen mir im Seelensonnenlicht Des Denkens reife Früchte, In Selbstbewusstseins Sicherheit Verwandelt alles Fühlen sich. Empfinden kann ich freudevoll Des Herbstes Geisterwachen: Der Winter wird in mir Den Selensommer wecken. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+30 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 27 16:39:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16252 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:39:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24595; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:30:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from commando.mobilixnet.dk ([195.78.82.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24057 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:25:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from carol (dialin-108-103.mobilixnet.dk [212.97.201.103]) by commando.mobilixnet.dk (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA85610 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 22:27:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991027210216.008f1b20@mail.mobilixnet.dk> X-Sender: mob34587@mail.mobilixnet.dk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 21:02:16 +0200 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Carol Jensen Subject: Re: [Fwd: Slugs added] In-Reply-To: <3816BA8B.27C7@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2165 At 21:40 27-10-1999 +1300, you wrote: Rudolf Steiner suggested to let the damaging insects or >whatever rot away. (We suggest dissolution in water, i.e. making a kind >of liquid manure). Alternatively, one could burn them. In either case >the remains of rotting or burning - should be scattered in infested >areas." I have for years let my horrible perrenial weeds like dandelion rot, but I use the rotted stuff as compost in the spring. If I had known what you told us, I would have at least made tea of it! Carol ----------------------------------- Webmasters! You need help! Read my article "Grammar for Webmasters" at ------------------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Oct 27 19:22:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA19500 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA13757; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:11:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13343 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:07:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d146.infoserve.net [199.175.157.146]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA09749 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <003601bf20d1$0ea96760$929dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: Glyposate kills beneficials Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:14:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF2096.6171E2A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2166 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF2096.6171E2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Michael Roboz To: michael roboz Cc: Troy LETHBRIDGE Danyk Date: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 4:10 PM Subject: Glyposate kills beneficials=20 New Scientist >October 23, 1999 Pg. 27 > >Collateral damage ? > >A common weedkiller is under suspicion of harming beneficial insects. A >German report to the European Commission describes lab tests showing = that >glyphosate can kill parasitic wasps and lacewings. Glyphosate is one of = the >most widely used herbicides in the European Union, where it is approved >under national regulations. > >The Commission is evaluating pesticides for approval at European level, = and >the report recommends postponing approval until further studies have = been >conducted in the field. Monsanto is already marketing glyphosate in the = US >specifically for use with crops genetically modified to tolerate it. It >wants to get the same crops approved for use on European farms. The = company >argues that more appropriate tests of glyphosate, which show no = evidence of >harm, have already been submitted. For more science news see >http://www.newscientist.com > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this = material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net> ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF2096.6171E2A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Michael Roboz <mroboz@infoserve.net>
T= o:=20 michael roboz <mroboz@infoserve.net>
C= c:=20 Troy LETHBRIDGE Danyk <danyk@EM.AGR.CA>
Date: = Wednesday,=20 October 27, 1999 4:10 PM
Subject: Glyposate kills beneficials=20

New Scientist
>October 23, 1999 Pg. = 27
>
>Collateral=20 damage ?
>
>A common weedkiller is under suspicion of = harming=20 beneficial insects. A
>German report to the European Commission = describes=20 lab tests showing that
>glyphosate can kill parasitic wasps and = lacewings.=20 Glyphosate is one of the
>most widely used herbicides in the = European=20 Union, where it is approved
>under national=20 regulations.
>
>The Commission is evaluating pesticides for = approval=20 at European level, and
>the report recommends postponing approval = until=20 further studies have been
>conducted in the field. Monsanto is = already=20 marketing glyphosate in the US
>specifically for use with crops=20 genetically modified to tolerate it. It
>wants to get the same = crops=20 approved for use on European farms. The company
>argues that more=20 appropriate tests of glyphosate, which show no evidence of
>harm, = have=20 already been submitted. For more science news see
>http://www.newscientist.com
&= gt;
>**=20 NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material=20 is
>distributed for research and educational purposes only.=20 **
>
>_______________________________________________________= __
>Richard=20 Wolfson,  PhD
>Consumer Right to Know Campaign,
>for = Mandatory=20 Labelling and Long-term
>Testing of all Genetically Engineered=20 Foods,
>500 Wilbrod Street
>Ottawa, ON  Canada  = K1N=20 6N2
>tel. 613-565-8517  fax. 613-565-1596
>email:  = rwolfson@concentric.net> ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF2096.6171E2A0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 29 00:10:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA13337 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 00:10:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA01008; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 00:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ark.com (mars.ark.com [209.53.216.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA00676 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 00:01:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.53.216.49] (io1p17.ark.com [209.53.216.49]) by ark.com (8.9.3/8.5local) with SMTP id VAA22179 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 21:02:43 -0700 Message-Id: <199910290402.VAA22179@ark.com> Subject: Spray advice Date: Thu, 28 Oct 99 21:02:47 -0700 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Lang Price To: "BD forum" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2167 Greetings all from British Columbia. We are about to purchase a spray rig for our 27 horse Kabota so we can increase the efficiency of applying preps on our 24 acre farm. We currently load up the preps from our flowform into plastic garbage containers which are in the back of a pickup, set up the lawnchairs behind the containers and wisk away ( this is actually quite a site) We are interested in the Hardy Sprayer but are having a bit of a time trying to figure out the spray nozzle size or caliber to spraying 500 and barrelcompound (raindrop size), and the caliber for 501 ( a fine mist).....any ideas? These will be installed onto a Boomjet which is a boomless system which in theory should give us a 40 foot coverage. Bye for now and keep up the great chats.....LANG PRICE From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 29 10:27:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19211 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05574; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:23:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu10.smtp.email.msn.com [207.46.181.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05262 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from micron - 63.20.184.167 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 07:20:30 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01bf2219$8e519020$a7b8143f@micron> From: "Wells" To: , "Price Langford" References: <199910290402.VAA22179@ark.com> Subject: Re: Spray advice Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 07:26:12 -0700 Organization: Microsoft Corporation X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2168 Suggest a paint strainer (from a paint store) to use in the sprayer (Put into the sprayers strainer) for your preps or you will be stopping to unclog your nozzles every few minutes. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lang Price To: BD forum Sent: Thursday, October 28, 1999 9:02 PM Subject: Spray advice > Greetings all from British Columbia. We are about to purchase a spray rig > for our 27 horse Kabota so we can increase the efficiency of applying > preps on our 24 acre farm. We currently load up the preps from our > flowform into plastic garbage containers which are in the back of a > pickup, set up the lawnchairs behind the containers and wisk away ( this > is actually quite a site) We are interested in the Hardy Sprayer but are > having a bit of a time trying to figure out the spray nozzle size or > caliber to spraying 500 and barrelcompound (raindrop size), and the > caliber for 501 ( a fine mist).....any ideas? These will be installed > onto a Boomjet which is a boomless system which in theory should give us > a 40 foot coverage. > Bye for now and keep up the great chats.....LANG PRICE > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 29 11:48:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21004 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:48:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13168; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:40:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12821 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:37:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.229] ("port 2050"@[148.233.78.229]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FKD00HFZH9X2P@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:18:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:27:01 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: finished to BD In-reply-to: To: Ted Rogers Cc: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2169 >I have done this from time to time, I would always wait with a "hot" >compost, like horse shit, for the pile to settle some what before I added >the preps, usually after turning. Using this method I have, due to poor >planning and not getting around to it, often left the pile as long as 6 >months which usually gives a "finished" product, even with out turning, if >the original was properly blended and covered. In that situation I would >just place the preps and wait for another 45-90 days for them to meld. I >sensed this as proper compost. > >Best, > >Ted Many Thanks for your answer Ted: So what you are saying is that you finish "hot" compost with the compost preps and let them act for an additional three months ?. Is there any indication for doing this in the BD circles or is it your intuition telling you this is appropriate ? I get the feeling that anything in which you put your heart and intention will end up working OK. Any other advice on using the compost preps on finished compost ? Warm greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 29 17:12:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27122 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:12:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA17603; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:00:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17230 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:57:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [148.233.78.229] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.178]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FKD00FMKRMCRQ@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:01:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:10:26 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: compost In-reply-to: <3819DA18.9B949602@ap.net> To: whirlderv@ap.net Cc: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id QAA17233 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2170 >Greetings amigo. > >davidi here up to my boot tops in too much compost . I've read books >and books, investigated recipies, read the BD list and then just used >what was available. Sheep/steer manure, lots of apples and crushed >apple waste from making cider, layers of dried grasses, some leaves, and >I've got about 2.5 yards of good looking , sweet smelling, dark rich >soil. Talking to other gardeners in this area, they seem to take the >same approach of using whats available. Won't get to the official BD >stage for a bit, but mother nature seems happy with what i'm doing. I >try to turn the pile about twice a month. No fruit flies, no bugs, no >mold. Just mixed some in with a new plot and everything is "looking >good". Intention, timeliness and patience seem to be the essential >ingredients. I suppose the preps will probably help too. > >Best Regards, >Davidi/whirlderv@ap.net Hey Davidi: I never heard anything like "too much compost", for me there is never enough, I envy you. I also use whatever is avail here, which includes a lot of spoiled mangoes and papaya, coffee processing residues, leafs, manures (I have even used "circus" manures), etc. My problem is that I have about four metric tons of beautifull, very diverse, one year old, mature compost that I want to "energize" with the BD preps. (I forgot to mention that I did use Pfiffer compost starter in this piles) As I said before, Jeff Poppen (The Barefoot farmer) in his demonstration at Allan's conference applied the preps to finished compost. My question is very simple and probably, it will be best answered by seasoned BDrs (and dowsers ?) like Hugh Lovel, and Malcom Gardner. Let me make my question clearer: Can you apply the BD compost preps to finished compost ?, How do you do it ?, how long do you have to wait for the preps to do their act on the compost ? many thanks for your input and kind regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Oct 29 21:14:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29820 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 21:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA02619; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 21:04:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kootenay.com (popper1.vphos.net [207.102.129.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28170 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 19:45:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.74]) by popper1.vphos.net ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 23:46:59 -0700 PDT Message-ID: <000f01bf2267$e56153c0$4acb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: Subject: Re: compost Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:44:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2171 Guillermo: <> I had a similar question when I arrived at the BBar ranch early in the 1995 season to begin to garden for the guest kitchen. My predecessor [non BD] had left me a large compost pile, probably 30-35 feet long and 7-8 feet wide at the ground level--mostly horsemanure, piled at least a year. I called Hugh Courtney at Josephine Porter Institute and asked what was basically your question. Told him the compost looked pretty good, that I needed to use it beginning in about 4 weeks, and could I prep it? His answer: a resounding YES. My understanding of his intuition and experience in the matter is that, contrary to my previous thinking, the purpose of the preps is not so much to improve the composting process itself--though BD compost is always gorgeous--but that the compost is the vehicle or medium for getting the preps onto the land. Sure, all the books tell us to prep the pile immediately it's finished, or at least once it's settled, but the "radiation" of the preps' influences throughout the pile doesn't take months and months. It happens, and it happens as we intend it to happen. Go ahead and prep your finished pile with your best and purest intentions for the land! Woody From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 30 03:06:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03169 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 03:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA23953; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 03:02:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA23837 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 02:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from garudix ([210.55.81.217]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991030070230.HHCH806758.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 20:02:30 +1300 Message-ID: <381A97DF.F47@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 20:01:51 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: BD & $ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2172 Further to our discussion on BDAs While it was not the first time I have had this thought, today it did strike with formidable clarity that the biggest limitation to the development of Biodynamics is commercial sensitivity. We are essentially a commercially orientated movement and so the nuances and developments of BD will provide the holders of that knowledge and experience a competitive advantage. Therefore ongoing commune-ication, and commune-ity are essentially impossible beyond what has been given to all by RS. Wherever one looks, be it to the BDAs little clubs, and businesses, be they preps or trademarks, their advisors pay checks, the farmers possible consulting fees for the experience they have gained, the researchers ability to fund their research and have a reasonable quality of life, we are met with the financial realities of modern life standing in the way of information sharing, joint benefit, rampant development and ultimately community. In short the spiritual activity of BD development and community is possessed by the economic. As we deal with larger and larger commercial operations can it be any other way? Is this list not a image of this reality in that we can endlessly talk about what RS has already provided us with and the furry edges around it yet the really crunchy topics that can make dimensional shifts are hinted at and ultimately kept to our selves, or for a price. I for one am just as 'guilty' as anyone else of declaring commercial sensitivity and 'witholding' information and insight that could effect my livelihood and competitive advantage. So I say this more as an observation and with sadness in my heart that this is so. I have no real answer and bring this to the attention of the list more as a consciousness exercise (lets call a spade a spade etc) and a step towards making it different , if it possibly could be. But as the organic /BD movement grows I see this tendancy growing with it. So ultimately it is not the acceptance and practice of BD that is our limitation, but our possession by economic advantage, which in its many ways, separates, devides and limits our community. Is a BD community beyond small enclaves really possible. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 30 03:29:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03262 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 03:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA24694; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 03:25:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA24576 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 03:22:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-16.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.49]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA12593 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 00:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <381A9CFA.3CE04E21@ap.net> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 00:23:38 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BD & $ References: <381A97DF.F47@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------75598D95272AE4BFF819B74F" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2173 --------------75598D95272AE4BFF819B74F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another opinion - in answer to the question you posed: If your soul is always for sale, not likely. If you have the courage of your convictions and go with your "heart" maybe. If you find a way to appreciate that RS gave this away and there is nothing to own, then probably. Good Fortune, David i/whirlderv@ap.net Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > Further to our discussion on BDAs > > While it was not the first time I have had this thought, today it did > strike with formidable clarity that the biggest limitation to the > development of Biodynamics is commercial sensitivity. > > We are essentially a commercially orientated movement and so the nuances > and developments of BD will provide the holders of that knowledge and > experience a competitive advantage. Therefore ongoing commune-ication, > and commune-ity are essentially impossible beyond what has been given to > all by RS. Wherever one looks, be it to the BDAs little clubs, and > businesses, be they preps or trademarks, their advisors pay checks, the > farmers possible consulting fees for the experience they have gained, > the researchers ability to fund their research and have a reasonable > quality of life, we are met with the financial realities of modern life > standing in the way of information sharing, joint benefit, rampant > development and ultimately community. > > In short the spiritual activity of BD development and community is > possessed by the economic. As we deal with larger and larger commercial > operations can it be any other way? > > Is this list not a image of this reality in that we can endlessly talk > about what RS has already provided us with and the furry edges around it > yet the really crunchy topics that can make dimensional shifts are > hinted at and ultimately kept to our selves, or for a price. > > I for one am just as 'guilty' as anyone else of declaring commercial > sensitivity and 'witholding' information and insight that could effect > my livelihood and competitive advantage. So I say this more as an > observation and with sadness in my heart that this is so. I have no real > answer and bring this to the attention of the list more as a > consciousness exercise (lets call a spade a spade etc) and a step > towards making it different , if it possibly could be. But as the > organic /BD movement grows I see this tendancy growing with it. > > So ultimately it is not the acceptance and practice of BD that is our > limitation, but our possession by economic advantage, which in its many > ways, separates, devides and limits our community. > > Is a BD community beyond small enclaves really possible. > > Glen A. --------------75598D95272AE4BFF819B74F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another opinion - in answer to the question you posed:
If your soul is always for sale, not likely.  If you have the courage of your convictions and go with your "heart" maybe.  If you find a way to appreciate that RS gave this away and there is nothing to own, then probably.

Good Fortune,
David i/whirlderv@ap.net

Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote:

Further to  our discussion on BDAs

While it was not the first time I have had this thought, today it did
strike with formidable clarity that the biggest limitation to the
development of Biodynamics is commercial sensitivity.

We are essentially a commercially orientated movement and so the nuances
and developments of BD will provide the holders of that knowledge and
experience a competitive advantage. Therefore ongoing commune-ication,
and commune-ity are essentially impossible beyond what has been given to
all by RS. Wherever one looks, be it to the BDAs little clubs, and
businesses, be they preps or trademarks, their advisors pay checks, the
farmers possible consulting fees for the experience they have gained,
the researchers ability to fund their research and have a reasonable
quality of life, we are met with the financial realities of modern life
standing in the way of information sharing, joint benefit, rampant
development and ultimately community.

In short the spiritual activity of BD development and community is
possessed by the economic. As we deal with larger and larger commercial
operations can it be any other way?

Is this list not a image of this reality in that we can endlessly talk
about what RS has already provided us with and the furry edges around it
yet the really crunchy topics that can make dimensional shifts are
hinted at and ultimately kept to our selves, or for a price.

I for one am just as 'guilty' as anyone else of declaring commercial
sensitivity and 'witholding' information and insight that could effect
my livelihood and competitive advantage. So I say this more as an
observation and with sadness in my heart that this is so. I have no real
answer and bring this to the attention of the list more as a
consciousness exercise (lets call a spade a spade etc) and a step
towards making it different , if it possibly could be. But as the
organic /BD movement grows I see this tendancy growing with it.

So ultimately it is not the acceptance and practice of BD that is our
limitation, but our possession by economic advantage, which in its many
ways, separates, devides and limits our community.

Is a BD community beyond small enclaves really possible.

Glen A.

--------------75598D95272AE4BFF819B74F-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 30 04:37:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA03609 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 04:37:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA27345; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 04:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA27108 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 04:30:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.135] (r-66.135.alltel.net [166.102.66.135]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id DAA02320 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 03:31:51 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 03:31:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <381A97DF.F47@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD & $ Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2174 Dear Glen and List, I believe the answer to your last question is it is. But that will take some explaining (later, I'm off to market.). You certainly have a talent for putting your finger on sore spots and this is an excellent one which I have long pondered. Hugh Lovel >Further to our discussion on BDAs > >While it was not the first time I have had this thought, today it did >strike with formidable clarity that the biggest limitation to the >development of Biodynamics is commercial sensitivity. > >We are essentially a commercially orientated movement and so the nuances >and developments of BD will provide the holders of that knowledge and >experience a competitive advantage. Therefore ongoing commune-ication, >and commune-ity are essentially impossible beyond what has been given to >all by RS. Wherever one looks, be it to the BDAs little clubs, and >businesses, be they preps or trademarks, their advisors pay checks, the >farmers possible consulting fees for the experience they have gained, >the researchers ability to fund their research and have a reasonable >quality of life, we are met with the financial realities of modern life >standing in the way of information sharing, joint benefit, rampant >development and ultimately community. > >In short the spiritual activity of BD development and community is >possessed by the economic. As we deal with larger and larger commercial >operations can it be any other way? > >Is this list not a image of this reality in that we can endlessly talk >about what RS has already provided us with and the furry edges around it >yet the really crunchy topics that can make dimensional shifts are >hinted at and ultimately kept to our selves, or for a price. > >I for one am just as 'guilty' as anyone else of declaring commercial >sensitivity and 'witholding' information and insight that could effect >my livelihood and competitive advantage. So I say this more as an >observation and with sadness in my heart that this is so. I have no real >answer and bring this to the attention of the list more as a >consciousness exercise (lets call a spade a spade etc) and a step >towards making it different , if it possibly could be. But as the >organic /BD movement grows I see this tendancy growing with it. > >So ultimately it is not the acceptance and practice of BD that is our >limitation, but our possession by economic advantage, which in its many >ways, separates, devides and limits our community. > >Is a BD community beyond small enclaves really possible. > >Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 30 10:37:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01398 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:37:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08929; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:32:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08719 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:31:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [210.55.32.14] by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991030143648.JJUO806758.mta2-rme@[210.55.32.14]> for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 03:36:48 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 03:33:14 +1300 Subject: No tillage..and Glen's point. From: "Daniel Bridler" To: BD NOW Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3024185594_852154_MIME_Part" Message-Id: <19991030143648.JJUO806758.mta2-rme@[210.55.32.14]> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2175 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3024185594_852154_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Is anybody interested in exchanging ideas and results of practical experience about no-tillage (or no-dig) commercial market gardening ? I am specially interested in the practicalities of mulching, special machinery and the problems of direct sowing. After 15 years of commercial market-gardening, using both techniques (tillage and no-tillage), I am quite happy to share the bit of experience I have. But then, did Glen not just warned me (and us) that this may be commercially sensitive for me?!?! No, seriously, his point is a very important one. Should we feel guilty in reaping the advantages of our knowledge? Hard work and sharp thinking has to be rewarded to allow survival in the first place but also to give the opportunity for further progress. After all "exchange" and "commerce" are siblings. May be the question to resolve is: when does the advantage I reap from the giving away (or selling for that matter) of what I know, stands in the way of the community's progress? True researchers and pioneers are by nature ahead of others in their field. And they should do what they can to stay there. But the question one should ask is perhaps: When does my drive to be ahead turns into a drive to be above others? A question to be answered by each individual for himself, but a very good topic for discussions amongst BD"pioneers". Thanks Glen. Your question touches exactly at that fine line where the economic reality meets or crosses over onto a spiritual activity( turning knowledge into dollars). Haven't we heard that before? Realms that should not mix? But they do mix in reality! And they have to. The question really is: do we use (or abuse) our knowledge to achieve economic dominance over others(i.e overpricing) or do we keep it to ourselves to keep others away from possible domination (end of progress)? Both options lead to the imbalance in the economy we know so well today. So imbalanced that we can sometimes doubt if we will know it tomorrow! Again we had some hints about that one before, and not just from RS: on their new flag the french revolutionaries wrote: Liberty(spiritual) Egality(political) and Fraternity(economy). Can we afford today not to trust and apply specially the last principle, as hard as it may be? To make things even harder(for me in the first place), here is stupid question: Apart from the economic benefits we may hope to achieve, could it be that a part of the fun we have in practicing BD is that feeling of being pioneers? How boring would a world be where BD is "Conventional Agriculture"? Let's keep it to ourselves,please. Daniel B. --MS_Mac_OE_3024185594_852154_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable No tillage..and Glen's point. Is anybody interested in exchanging ideas and results of practical experien= ce about no-tillage (or no-dig) commercial market gardening ? I am specially= interested in the practicalities of mulching, special machinery and the pro= blems of direct sowing. After 15 years of commercial market-gardening, using= both techniques (tillage and no-tillage),  I am quite happy to share t= he bit of experience I have.
But then, did Glen not just warned me (and us) that this may be commerciall= y sensitive for me?!?!
 No, seriously, his point is a very important one. Should we feel guil= ty in reaping the advantages of our knowledge? Hard work and sharp thinking = has to be rewarded to allow survival in the first place but also to give the= opportunity for further progress. After all "exchange" and "= commerce" are siblings. May be the question to resolve is: when does th= e advantage I reap from the giving away (or selling for that matter) of what= I know, stands in the way of the community's progress? True researchers and= pioneers are by nature ahead of others in their field. And they should do w= hat they can to stay there. But the question one should ask is perhaps: When= does my drive to be ahead turns into a drive to be above othe= rs?  A question to be answered by each individual for himself, but a ve= ry good topic for discussions amongst  BD"pioneers". Thanks G= len.

Your question touches exactly at that fine line where the economic reality = meets or crosses over onto a spiritual activity( turning knowledge into doll= ars). Haven't we heard that before? Realms that should not mix? But they do = mix in reality! And they have to. The question really is: do we use (or abus= e) our knowledge to achieve economic dominance over others(i.e overpricing) = or do we keep it to ourselves to keep others away from possible domination (= end of progress)? Both options lead to the imbalance in the economy we know = so well today. So imbalanced that we can sometimes doubt if we will know it = tomorrow!  Again we had some hints about that one before, and not just = from RS: on their new flag the french revolutionaries wrote: Liberty(spiritu= al) Egality(political) and Fraternity(economy). Can we afford today not to t= rust and apply specially the last principle, as hard as it may be?
To make things even harder(for me in the first place), here is stupid quest= ion: Apart from the economic benefits we may hope to achieve, could it be th= at a part of the fun we have in practicing BD is that feeling of being  = ;pioneers? How boring would a world be where BD is "Conventional Agricu= lture"?


 Let's keep it to ourselves,please.

Daniel B.

--MS_Mac_OE_3024185594_852154_MIME_Part-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 30 10:41:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01430 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09134; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:36:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx.webound.com (root@mx.webound.com [216.90.136.28]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08932 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [216.90.134.253] (gvl134-253.dial.webound.com [216.90.134.253]) by mx.webound.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/jsb) with ESMTP id JAA71573 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 09:34:27 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 09:34:27 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: genegerue@pop.webound.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <381A97DF.F47@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Gene GeRue Subject: Re: BD & $ Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2176 Glen A. wrote: >In short the spiritual activity of BD development and community is >possessed by the economic. As we deal with larger and larger commercial >operations can it be any other way? . . . I say this more as an >observation and with sadness in my heart that this is so. This speaks to me. I, too, have pondered this dilemma and it saddens me that we cannot share completely. I am an author who would like everyone to have free access to my book but I need to buy groceries so I need to sell books. How to resolve the conundrum? Last night in bed I read an article by Harvey Cox titled "The Market As God" (The Atlantic Monthly, March, 1999). Cox makes a good case that the financial market has become our religion. I submit that those who need wealth and the power it brings will not resolve the conundrum--the solution will come from little guys like us. I do see hope. I recently happened across an author's Web site (Peter McWilliams) where he presents all of his books in their entirety, free. Of course he is in a much higher income bracket than I. But it is a good example. Perhaps such gifts will inspire others of us to begin to find ways to share more freely while still sustaining our lifestyles. Gene GeRue, author, How To Find Your Ideal Country Home: A Comprehensive Guide http://www.ruralize.com/ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 30 10:50:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01484 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09629; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:45:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09469 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:43:14 -0400 (EDT) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hTFSa12220 (4426) for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:44:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.6d54b85c.254c5e3a@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:44:10 EDT Subject: regarding your cosmic pipes To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 44 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2177 Is the type of energy that your cosmic pipes are tapping into "paramagnetic" energies, or does it have some sort of name? Also, what is the largest-sized area broadcasting pipe that you produce? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 30 11:09:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01592 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 11:09:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10661; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 11:04:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10565 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 11:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-23.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.24]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA29247 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 08:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <381B08DF.72296B2C@ap.net> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 08:03:59 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: No tillage..and Glen's point. References: <19991030143648.JJUO806758.mta2-rme@[210.55.32.14]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1FC13766DA982F6F0164C34B" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2178 --------------1FC13766DA982F6F0164C34B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Daniel! My usual cruise is normally on spiritual waters so this topic is not as much of an enigma to me. Some questions to help focus. First of all, you need to be true to yourself. Consider what motivates you. Do you achieve satisfaction from watching your community prosper? or Is your heart satisfied without sharing? Next consider what you could possibly lose. BD is neither widely known, widely practiced, or widely in demand. What could you possibly be sacrificing in market share? Finally, do you believe in integrity? Rudolph Steiner GAVE THIS INFORMATION to the world. Consider how you can hold onto something potentially for profit when its not yours to own and you never paid for it. And last but not least is the concept of "Spiritual Agriculture". Is this something you choose to practice? Or is it primarily "Only forProfit Agriculture". My experience with farmer neighbors here in California has always been positive and heart fullfilling. Produce, tools, advice, dinner or friendship. You know that sharing is the compost of the heart, it just helps the entire community grow richer and stronger. Good Fortune, In Love and Light, Davidi/whirlderv@ap.net Daniel Bridler wrote: > Is anybody interested in exchanging ideas and results of practical > experience about no-tillage (or no-dig) commercial market gardening ? > I am specially interested in the practicalities of mulching, special > machinery and the problems of direct sowing. After 15 years of > commercial market-gardening, using both techniques (tillage and > no-tillage), I am quite happy to share the bit of experience I have. > But then, did Glen not just warned me (and us) that this may be > commercially sensitive for me?!?! > No, seriously, his point is a very important one. Should we feel > guilty in reaping the advantages of our knowledge? Hard work and sharp > thinking has to be rewarded to allow survival in the first place but > also to give the opportunity for further progress. After all > "exchange" and "commerce" are siblings. May be the question to resolve > is: when does the advantage I reap from the giving away (or selling > for that matter) of what I know, stands in the way of the community's > progress? True researchers and pioneers are by nature ahead of others > in their field. And they should do what they can to stay there. But > the question one should ask is perhaps: When does my drive to be ahead > turns into a drive to be above others? A question to be answered by > each individual for himself, but a very good topic for discussions > amongst BD"pioneers". Thanks Glen. > > Your question touches exactly at that fine line where the economic > reality meets or crosses over onto a spiritual activity( turning > knowledge into dollars). Haven't we heard that before? Realms that > should not mix? But they do mix in reality! And they have to. The > question really is: do we use (or abuse) our knowledge to achieve > economic dominance over others(i.e overpricing) or do we keep it to > ourselves to keep others away from possible domination (end of > progress)? Both options lead to the imbalance in the economy we know > so well today. So imbalanced that we can sometimes doubt if we will > know it tomorrow! Again we had some hints about that one before, and > not just from RS: on their new flag the french revolutionaries wrote: > Liberty(spiritual) Egality(political) and Fraternity(economy). Can we > afford today not to trust and apply specially the last principle, as > hard as it may be? > To make things even harder(for me in the first place), here is stupid > question: Apart from the economic benefits we may hope to achieve, > could it be that a part of the fun we have in practicing BD is that > feeling of being pioneers? How boring would a world be where BD is > "Conventional Agriculture"? > > > Let's keep it to ourselves,please. > > Daniel B. > > --------------1FC13766DA982F6F0164C34B Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Daniel!
My usual cruise is normally on spiritual waters so this topic is not as much of an enigma to me. Some questions to help focus. First of all, you need to be true to yourself. Consider what motivates you.  Do you achieve satisfaction from watching  your community prosper? or Is your heart satisfied without sharing? Next consider what you could possibly lose.  BD is neither widely known, widely practiced, or widely in demand.  What could you possibly be sacrificing in market share?  Finally, do you believe in integrity?  Rudolph Steiner GAVE THIS INFORMATION to the world.  Consider how you can hold onto something potentially for profit when its not yours to own and you never paid for it.  And last but not least is the concept of "Spiritual Agriculture".  Is this something you choose to practice?  Or is it primarily "Only forProfit Agriculture".
My experience with farmer neighbors here in California has always been positive and heart fullfilling.  Produce, tools, advice,  dinner or friendship.

You know that sharing is the compost of the heart, it just helps the entire community grow richer and stronger.

Good Fortune,
In Love and Light,
Davidi/whirlderv@ap.net

Daniel Bridler wrote:

Is anybody interested in exchanging ideas and results of practical experience about no-tillage (or no-dig) commercial market gardening ? I am specially interested in the practicalities of mulching, special machinery and the problems of direct sowing. After 15 years of commercial market-gardening, using both techniques (tillage and no-tillage),  I am quite happy to share the bit of experience I have.
But then, did Glen not just warned me (and us) that this may be commercially sensitive for me?!?!
 No, seriously, his point is a very important one. Should we feel guilty in reaping the advantages of our knowledge? Hard work and sharp thinking has to be rewarded to allow survival in the first place but also to give the opportunity for further progress. After all "exchange" and "commerce" are siblings. May be the question to resolve is: when does the advantage I reap from the giving away (or selling for that matter) of what I know, stands in the way of the community's progress? True researchers and pioneers are by nature ahead of others in their field. And they should do what they can to stay there. But the question one should ask is perhaps: When does my drive to be ahead turns into a drive to be above others?  A question to be answered by each individual for himself, but a very good topic for discussions amongst  BD"pioneers". Thanks Glen.

Your question touches exactly at that fine line where the economic reality meets or crosses over onto a spiritual activity( turning knowledge into dollars). Haven't we heard that before? Realms that should not mix? But they do mix in reality! And they have to. The question really is: do we use (or abuse) our knowledge to achieve economic dominance over others(i.e overpricing) or do we keep it to ourselves to keep others away from possible domination (end of progress)? Both options lead to the imbalance in the economy we know so well today. So imbalanced that we can sometimes doubt if we will know it tomorrow!  Again we had some hints about that one before, and not just from RS: on their new flag the french revolutionaries wrote: Liberty(spiritual) Egality(political) and Fraternity(economy). Can we afford today not to trust and apply specially the last principle, as hard as it may be?
To make things even harder(for me in the first place), here is stupid question: Apart from the economic benefits we may hope to achieve, could it be that a part of the fun we have in practicing BD is that feeling of being  pioneers? How boring would a world be where BD is "Conventional Agriculture"?


 Let's keep it to ourselves,please.

Daniel B.


--------------1FC13766DA982F6F0164C34B-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 30 14:50:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05064 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 14:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23869; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 14:45:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23566 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 14:41:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d140.infoserve.net [199.175.157.140]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA07529 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 11:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001701bf2307$8ea84980$8c9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: AG. & $ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 11:49:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF22CC.CD778C60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2179 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF22CC.CD778C60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When I worked for the Demeter Bakery, Sydnew, Australia, they had = endless discussion on how to emancipate our wages from our work. I = don't know if they ever resolved the problem. If Hamish McKay is = listening, then perhaps he can answer the question. It is a very difficult problem. M. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF22CC.CD778C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  When I worked for the = Demeter=20 Bakery, Sydnew, Australia,  they had endless discussion on how to=20 emancipate our wages from our work.  I don't know if they ever = resolved the=20 problem.  If Hamish McKay is listening, then perhaps he can answer = the=20 question.
It is a very difficult = problem.=20 M.
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF22CC.CD778C60-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 30 22:26:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA08413 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:26:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA19601; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19495 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:19:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ap.net (D-22.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.23]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA07698 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 19:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <381BA78A.9409095D@ap.net> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 19:20:58 -0700 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: AG. & $ References: <001701bf2307$8ea84980$8c9dafc7@333> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A6B49F2FF2E3468214BEEEFD" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2180 --------------A6B49F2FF2E3468214BEEEFD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, I just don't get the "problem". If the product is in demand and profits are bountiful, then resources are easily distributed. If profits are failing, then you go out of business and pick another path. If people are too greedy to share the bounty, the choice to move on is always an option. How does emancipate the wages from the work bear on this thread of " fear of honesty in commerce?" David i/whirlderv@ap.net Michael Roboz wrote: > When I worked for the Demeter Bakery, Sydnew, Australia, they had > endless discussion on how to emancipate our wages from our work. I > don't know if they ever resolved the problem. If Hamish McKay is > listening, then perhaps he can answer the question.It is a very > difficult problem. M. --------------A6B49F2FF2E3468214BEEEFD Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, I just don't get the "problem".  If the product is in demand and profits are bountiful, then resources are easily distributed.  If profits are failing, then you go out of business and pick another path.  If people are too greedy to share the bounty, the choice to move on is always an option.  How does emancipate the wages from the work bear on this thread of " fear of honesty in commerce?"  David i/whirlderv@ap.net

Michael Roboz wrote:

   When I worked for the Demeter Bakery, Sydnew, Australia,  they had endless discussion on how to emancipate our wages from our work.  I don't know if they ever resolved the problem.  If Hamish McKay is listening, then perhaps he can answer the question.It is a very difficult problem. M.
--------------A6B49F2FF2E3468214BEEEFD-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Oct 30 23:13:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08623 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 23:13:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA22100; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 23:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA21988 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 23:08:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.102.66.72] (r-66.72.alltel.net [166.102.66.72]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id WAA21610 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:09:58 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:09:58 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0.6d54b85c.254c5e3a@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: regarding your cosmic pipes Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2181 >Is the type of energy that your cosmic pipes are tapping into "paramagnetic" >energies, or does it have some sort of name? Also, what is the largest-sized >area broadcasting pipe that you produce? Dear J, Paramagnetic? Not exactly. What we are tapping into is organizational energies. Formative forces. Paramagnetic energies are only one of the energies that can become organized and formed into forms. What we are working with is the principle of bringing order out of chaos. So you might say the pipes (field broadcasters) are broadcasting resonance patterns which catch up the environmental energies and bring order, or form, to them. This is what makes plants grow. All the calcium, magnesium, pottash, phosphorus, nitrogen, etc., etc., etc. can be there but if they do not get organized into forms then nothing is accomplished. The degree to which they become organized says a lot about the quality--to say nothing of the quantity--of crops one grows. This is where the field broadcasters work wonderfully well. Our field (aka farm) model covers 500 acres, sometimes more. This gets the cost of broadcasting down to $2 an acre the first year. With annual reagent updates costing $100, the cost for the second year is 20 cents an acre. there's a 3 year warranty on circuit parts and the broadcasters are equipped with test terminals and a meter to keep a check on each well. I hope this helps. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 31 10:35:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12510 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 10:35:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19949; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 10:31:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19654 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 10:27:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.50.58.80] (A49.reach.net [204.50.58.80]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA19519 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 11:28:46 -0500 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 11:28:46 -0500 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Dates for dormant cane harvest? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2182 Here's a question I'd be grateful for guidance on from this informative list. I would like to harvest a portion of my dormant vinifera canes probably the second or third week in November, for winter storage and then planting next Spring. What, according to the various subtle engergies, would be the most auspicious dates for this, and why? I haven't bought either the Stella Natura calendar, nor the Maria Thun one, because the year is nearly gone. But I'd like to order one or both for 2000, to keep track of what I see in the vineyard next year, and to reference things I notice in the field against dates on the published calendars. What are the merits of either publication? Are they quite different, or different in ways that reflect the European climate vs. the North American? Who uses what and why? I'd be very interested to hear thoughts on any or all of these queries, and would find it of immeasurable assistance. Cheers & Thanks, Geoff Heinricks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 31 11:38:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13159 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 11:38:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23589; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 11:34:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23204 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 11:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.72] (r-66.96.alltel.net [166.102.66.96]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id KAA15970 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 10:33:12 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 10:33:12 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: uai@alltel.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <381A97DF.F47@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD & $ Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2183 Glen Atkinson wrote: >> >>Is this list not a image of this reality in that we can endlessly talk >>about what RS has already provided us with and the furry edges around it >>yet the really crunchy topics that can make dimensional shifts are >>hinted at and ultimately kept to our selves, or for a price. >> >>I for one am just as 'guilty' as anyone else of declaring commercial >>sensitivity and 'witholding' information and insight that could effect >>my livelihood and competitive advantage. So I say this more as an >>observation and with sadness in my heart that this is so. I have no real >>answer and bring this to the attention of the list more as a >>consciousness exercise (lets call a spade a spade etc) and a step >>towards making it different , if it possibly could be. But as the >>organic /BD movement grows I see this tendancy growing with it. >> >>So ultimately it is not the acceptance and practice of BD that is our >>limitation, but our possession by economic advantage, which in its many >>ways, separates, devides and limits our community. >> >>Is a BD community beyond small enclaves really possible. >> >>Glen A. >Dear Glen and List, > >I believe the answer to your last question is it is. But that will take >some explaining (later, I'm off to market.). You certainly have a talent >for putting your finger on sore spots and this is an excellent one which I >have long pondered. > >Hugh Lovel Dear Glen, David, Michael, et. al., Back again here Sunday morning after saturday's market and a little sleep. Maybe I've got time to write briefly. This is a "too big" topic. Back nearly a quarter century ago when I started farming I didn't know if it was possible to convert agriculture to organic, or if organic could really be successful. There were all kinds of people saying it was impossible and all manner of signs that it couldn't be done. As far as I was concerned, however, none of that mattered a cat's whisker. The hand writing was on the wall that it HAD to be done. I didn't care if it was impossible. The alternative was certain, though maybe prolonged, death and destruction. The alternative to clean, vital, organic agriculture was to use things up, poison them, and gradually run out of the means to support life as we know it. What was more--though at the time I knew nothing of Biodynamic Agriculture or Steiner, etc.--I could see that food raised the conventional way didn't have what people needed for spiritual progress, so mankind would degenerate into chaos and lawlessness (just as we see American society doing willy nilly in our times). We had to learn to grow food that was more than just organic. I didn't know how. I didn't know if it was possible. I just knew it had to be done. In fact, it looked to me like any unnecessary delay had to be avoided. I found out quite some time back that accomplishing intentions wasn't just a matter of putting one foot in front of the other. One had to pray for guidance and inspiration, of course. But even that wasn't nearly enough. Sure, flushing the toilet was easy, but learning nuclear physics was just a little more complicated, right? After all, I took a week and read a book on how to wire my house, and I then proceeded to wire it. No problem. Well, almost no problem. The first circuit I wired I, regrettably, cut the wires just a little too short for comfort. It was a preview of hell trying to get the wire nuts tight and the fixtures mounted on that one. I would have given up early in the game if I hadn't overcome that operational hinderance. I had the concepts down, but there were unexpected impediments when it came to putting everything into practice. When I took on the study of nuclear physics I discovered impediments of a much richer and more fundamental nature. The first one I had to get over was my inability to see how mathematical equations worked. I knew experientially that no two things were ever quite equal. So equations were counter-intuitive for me and I had to discover that all that stuff was axiomatic--simply taken AS true. Not that it really was true, it just was taken that way. You see, even back then I instinctively knew that everything existed in context rather than in isolation as physicists commonly assume. I had the intuitional insights basic to projective geometry, but I had a real Everest of a hike to educate myself over my obstacles, hinderances, impediments to seeing where folks like Bohr, Heisenberg, Hawkings, etc. were coming from. Whew! I spent a couple years sweating my brain in this direction. Fortunately for me I lost interest before taking on a reform of the assumptions underlying what is taught as nuclear physics. It would have consumed all my time and then some, and my real interest lay in understanding life. So I got back on track after that detour, but the point of all this is that to climb these Everests one must become supremely able to overcome any hinderance. Success is not just a matter of formulating an intention and going for it along known paths. One must wax muscular at problem solving. Back in my days as a psychologist I realized that nearly all of our intractable psychological problems have their roots in the first few hours, days, weeks and months of life. Frequently if we wanted to get to the bottom of someone's most troublesome problems we would have to go all the way back to birth. There was a French doctor who realized that giving birth in a dimly lighted, warm room--even in a tub with warm, saline water--reduced birth trauma dramatically. Babies born this way were calmer, clearer, more intelligent, less prone to diseases, upsets,etc. We had a baby born this way on our farm a few years back, and what a wonderful, bright person this young lady has become so far. She's had lots of stresses since, and I hope some really capable writer finds out about her parents' story and writes it all down. It is incredible what this family has been through and PERSEVERED. They are still confronting the monsters that have sought to destroy them, but they've won again and again and again. This baby has grown up in that environment, and thanks God she got off to a good start in the beginning. These people have been arrested, slandered, falsely accused on the "Public's Ten Most Wanted Program", pilloried in an incredibly biased big city newspaper, burned out, automobile assaulted with intent to kill, etc. These people have been fighting the good fight for a better world on a daily basis. But the bottom line is we aren't going to REALLY do too much about healing society without raising our next generation healthier and freer than we were raised. The world is incredibly flawed and we are too flawed ourselves to be of much help. We're almost too flawed to get our children off to a better start than we got, but this family is wittness to the fact that such a thing IS possible. I hope I've explained above why biodynamic agriculture is SO IMPORTANT for pregnant mothers. It is much more important for them than for adults. And this is why Waldorf Education is so important from the earliest school ages, from kindergarden. It's never too late for us old foggies to improve our lives a little, but getting a new soul started in a really wholesome way stands to do by far the most good in the world. You know, education is by far the most productive investment one can make. It beats me that Steiner (with all he accomplished to set forth guiding thoughts for the improvement of society with an eye to human evolution) didn't make more of a thing about parenting, especially mothering, from day one. But, of course, to see improvement on that level, we have to start with adults. Steiner started primarily with adults. Adults and only adults are in the position to lay the groundwork for raising the next generation. So even though we can do by far the most good by working with infants, we can't adequately work with infants without first making ourselves a lot more healthy and whole. It's a complex problem that makes nuclear physics look like a sunday picnic. Now we can set out these goals, intentions, etc. Heaven knows Steiner elucidated many of the problems with his exposition of world economics, the threefold social order, philosophy of freedom, knowledge of higher worlds, education, architecture, anthroposophical medicine, eurythmy, etc., etc., etc. So have plenty of others. We tend to get overwhelmed by Steiner's contributions and forget that anthroposophy (with a little "a") is the study of human wisdom, and that study proceeds on this planet with or without Steiner's contributions. Steiner was ever so all-embracing. He was always pointing out the wise and the wonderful in the works of others. People involved in Steiner's work tend to forget that anthroposophy proceeds all over the world, often in places where folks never heard of Rudolf Steiner. Believe me I encountered a whopping great chunk of anthroposophy from childhood on before I ever heard of Rudolf Steiner. Otherwise I'd never have been ready for Steiner nor have been involved in the searches that led me to Steiner. Those who are focused on Anthhroposophy with a capital "A" and who think that something could only be anthroposophical if it came out of Steiner's work are pitiable cultists who WILL, yes, have allowed themselves no choice but to be isolated in small enclaves. They will never become main stream because they do not embrace the main stream of human wisdom and evolution. They have stuck themselves off in a corner and pulled Rudolf Steiner in on top of themselves. Now let's consider human wisdom and human evolution. Biodynamic agriculture addresses the roots of this development because it goes back to nourishing the fetus in the womb. It goes to the earliest moment of the development of the manifest human organism, to what happens when the sperm and ova unite and the developmental, organizational forces of the universe come to bear in the building up of a new human body. When we talk about ether, astrality, egoity, etc. we are talking about organizational forces, formative forces. We are talking about life. I don't mean to get into what all the levels of development of the soul are beyond the body. There are many. It is complex. But let's just think rather simply about life. Life is what brings order out of chaos. It reverses the disorganizational trends we see all about us in death. We burn fuel and the energy dissipates and becomes disorganized. Electricity dissipates. The energy from nuclear fission dissipates. Our tires wear out on our car and our clothes wear out in the washing machine, and our bodies age and eventually wear out. The growth of a soybean or of an human embryo flies in the face of all this. It is organic, organizational, formative, transformative. The ether is the must fundamental level of formative force. Plants express this well. But when one gets to animals there is a transformation of what became organized and formed in plants and this takes formative, organizational forces to another level. And it goes on from there. In the womb if these organizational, formative forces are rich and fecund the development of the human being from the earliest moments is greatly assisted toward the realization of its highest potentials, whatever these are. This is what makes biodynamic agriculture SO important. It is not the property of some patent holder or sclerotic cult. There is nothing isolationist or backwater about it. Back a quarter century ago when I went looking for how best to get humanity on the track of its evolution, biodynamic agriculture is what I found. There are a lot of things out there that are helpful, but biodynamic agriculture is the creme de la creme. It is a gift available to anyone. It is ridiculous to think of it in a proprietary, private property sort of way. You can't put any price on it. It is priceless. It is free and above all that. I know expenses must be met in the course of applying biodynamic methods to the earth. That's not the problem. It's really not. But what IS the hinderance? What IS blocking the path, impeeding and obstructing the application of BD to the earth as a whole? It's like Goethe said, "Is it then so great a secret, what God and mankind and the world are? No! But none like to hear it so it rests concealed." Steiner categorized the main inner hinderances to the progress of anthroposophy (with a little "a") as PERSONAL AMBITION, ILLUSIONS and PETTY JEALOUSIES. It is difficult to listen to this. People don't want to hear it. But I think Steiner made a good sumation. I see it as ever so accurate that biodynamic agriculture addresses these hinderances at the most fundamental level. The trouble is that in applying biodynamics it suffers from these very inner hinderances in aces and spades. We're back to what I found with psychological therapy and dealing with the traumas of birth and the crippling problems that result from it. To achieve real progress we have to see that birth is much, much less traumatic. But to achieve less traumatic birthing we have to transform the behavior of adults (ourselves) who are already frighteningly crippled. It is almost a Catch 22. Back in the June 1997 ACRES, U.S.A. I wrote an article about how to make a field broadcaster (cosmic pipe) and broadcast the biodynamic preparations to large acreages without fuels, machinery, lost time or consumption of preparations. At the time I was thinking of the hinderance of personal ambition and I thought, "Well, it's not my meal ticket. I can afford to give away everything I know. I have simple wants and needs and this must be free for everyone." Two things happened. One was I soon realized I had turned loose a monster. In particular one caller told us that he had built a broadcaster and put BLACK FLAG in it. Was that going to take care of his insects? This was frightening. This numbskull was "taking care" of himself, wife, kids, pets and probably neighbors too. Also several others ran into problems following the instructions, and I soon realized the instructions were inadequate. I couldn't convey what I'd learned in such a fashion. There were too many caveats, too many "watch-out-for-this" concerns. The second thing was I quickly found out that I hadn't learned nearly enough. Many responses led to improvements in design. The design I published had a lot of problems and unanswered questions to it. At some point I hope to sell a much more adequate set of plans for construction of these devices. First, of course, I have to get there. All in all it was a very educational thing to do and necessary for the concept of field broadcasting to blossom. By being at the hub, so to speak, I have found out enormously more from all the other people involved than I ever would have if I had kept my cards close to the vest. In sum, I had a tiger by the tail, and I'd better not turn loose. So I've moved toward making and marketing these things. It seems to be the next step. I probably have to become a wheeler/dealer at this, no matter that I had eschewed this path previously. No one else is prepared to do it yet, and it will probably flounder around a while otherwise. I'm looking at the advice I've gotten from successful business folks and I can see my prices are still much too low and my operation much too shoe string for what needs to happen in real business terms. I still farm. Now better than ever. I want to eat that BD food, you know. That's my real livelihood. It sustains me especially in the face of those aforementioned inner hinderances. I cannot explain the plethora of occasions I've had to swim through the dark, cold, submarine caverns of personal ambition, illusions and petty jealousies searching out the next air pocket and the next. I know a lot more is to come. It ain't no picnic and there's lots of pain with just smidgens of fun. I'm not pretty and I'm no saint and if you'd see the midnights of sloppy, drunken, inconsiderate meanness I've manifested in my life you'd probably be at least as revolted by it as I. Shucks. I want to point to one thing, though. In my book, page 30, where I define sympathetic vibratory physics I quote Rudolf Steiner. "The famous technology of our days will come to its end soon because she will in a certain way wind up herself. The following phenomenon will then appear: man will achieve the faculty to employ the fine vibrations fo his ethereal body to impulsate mechanical devices. The individual will be able to transmit his own vibrations to the machine, and only he will be able to set the machine in motion by the vibrations generated by himself. The men who are now practical technicians will soon discover they are standing before a complete change as to what one calls practical, when man will be involved with his WILL in the objective FEELING of the world." I know that biodynamic agriculture will someday be seen as mainstream. Why do I know this? Two things. One, it MUST be recognized as mainstream because it is what is needed for human evolution. Two, it IS mainstream to the course of human evolution. It just hasn't been recognized as that yet. Finally it is NOT the property of a select few nor can they make it so. Rudolf Steiner not only studied herbalism, homeopathy and environmental science, but also Blavatsky, vedic science, all sorts of things including the most in-depth study of Christ I've ever encountered. I'm sure Steiner would be the first to point out that we could any of us do similarly and embrace the mainstream of human evolution just as he did. To make an isolationist cult of his work is simply a travesty. There's no other word for it. For any of you who are holding back and trying to keep BD to yourselves about all I can suggest is that you do that. See where it gets you, and God bless. Regards, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 31 12:45:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13646 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:45:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28217; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:42:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28042 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:39:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.72] (r-67.54.alltel.net [166.102.67.54]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id LAA02363; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 11:40:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 11:40:45 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: uai@alltel.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org, Brad.Cumming@ec.gc.ca, Brad.Cumming@ec.gc.ca From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Off: Humor Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2184 Here in the mountains of North Georgia we look askance at folks who call us "Hill Billies" as we are known indigenously as "Mountain Men or Mountain Folk." Contrary to uninformed opinion we don't say "Ya'll." Rather, it is "You'uns." There is, however, a broader categorization that we, sometimes a little reluctantly, can be grouped in. Rednecks. Whether this is because the dust from our red clay soils tinging our shirt collars, or the fact that our southern sun tends to turn our necks red, OR the fact that a lifetime of daily beer drinking tends to make for a ruddy complexioned neck, it IS a fairly descriptive term. Here is a little insight. We have to police and educate our young and disadvantaged just like any other subset of the human race. In this regard below is something I found in circulation, more or less as an inter-office memo might circulate amongst the employees of a large financial firm. I found it educational even if it doesn't pertain to other populations elsewhere. It's a streamlined, rudimentary Emily Post for rednecks. Warm regards, Hugh Lovel MARTHA STEWART'S TIPS FOR REDNECKS > > > > 1. Never take a beer to a job interview. > > 2. Always identify people in your yard before > shooting at them. > > 3. It's considered tacky to take a cooler to > church. > > 4. If you have to vacuum the bed, it is time to > change the sheets. > > 5. Even if you're certain that you are included > in the Will, it is > still > > considered tacky to drive a U-Haul to the > funeral home. > > > > > > DINING OUT > > > > 1. When decanting wine, make sure that you tilt > the paper cup, and > pour > > slowly so as not to "bruise" the fruit of the > vine. > > 2. If drinking directly from the bottle, always > hold it with your > fingers > > covering the label. > > > > > > ENTERTAINING IN YOUR HOME > > > > 1. A centerpiece for the table should never be > anything prepared by > a > > taxidermist. > > 2. Do not allow the dog to eat at the table..no > matter how good > his > > manners are. > > > > > > PERSONAL HYGIENE > > > > 1. While ears need to be cleaned regularly, this > is a job that > should be > > done in private using one's OWN keys. > > 2. Proper use of toiletries can forestall bathing > for several days. > > However, if you live alone, deodorant is a > waste of good money. > > 3. Dirt and grease under the fingernails is a > social no-no, as they > tend > to > > detract from a woman's jewelry and alter the > taste of finger > foods. > > > > > > DATING (Outside the Family) > > > > 1. Always offer to bait your date's hook, > especially on the first > date. > > 2. Be aggressive. Let her know you're interested: > "I've been > wanting to > go > > out with you since I read that stuff on the > bathroom wall two > years > > ago." > > 3. Establish with her parents what time she is > expected back. Some > will > > say 10:00 PM; Others might say "Monday." If > the latter is the > answer, > > it is the man's responsibility to get her to > school on time. > > > > > > THEATER ETIQUETTE > > > > 1. Crying babies should be taken to the lobby and > picked up > immediately > > after the movie has ended. > > 2. Refrain from talking to characters on the > screen. Tests have > proven > > they can't hear you. > > > > > > WEDDINGS > > > > 1. Livestock, usually, is a poor choice for a > wedding gift. > > 2. Kissing the bride for more than 5 seconds may > get you shot. > > 3. For the groom, at least, rent a tux. A leisure > suit with a > cummerbund > > and a clean bowling shirt can create a tacky > appearance. > > 4. Though uncomfortable, say "yes" to socks and > shoes for this > special > > occasion. > > > > > > DRIVING ETIQUETTE > > > > 1. Dim your headlights for approaching vehicles; > Even if the gun is > loaded, > > and the deer is in sight. > > 2. When approaching a four-way stop, the vehicle > with the largest > tires > > always has the right of way. > > 3. Never tow another car using panty hose and > duct tape. > > 4. When sending your wife down the road with a > gas can, it is > impolite to > > ask her to also bring back beer. > > 5. Do not lay rubber while traveling in a funeral > procession. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 31 13:48:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14276 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:48:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02540; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:45:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02368 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:43:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ap.net (D-29.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.30]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA13660 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 10:44:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <381C8DEE.E25A27AD@ap.net> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 10:43:58 -0800 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: weeds again Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2185 seeking hints for control / defeat of "bermuda grass". strong thin vine travels above and below soil, puts out shoots every 3-4 inches or so and creates thick impenetrable mats.. spent springtime cutting digging and pulling . a little resting on my laurels and not enough mulch and the little devils are everywhere. soil supports everything but potatoes just fine. lots leafy veggies, basil,sage, tomatoes, squash, beets, sunflowers. this stuff is prolific, just a shame its not edible. thanks. davidi/whirlderv@ap.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 31 16:59:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16304 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 16:59:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15635; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 16:55:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA15483 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 16:52:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip057.computer.net [140.186.252.57]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA06621 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 16:54:32 -0500 (EST) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:55:31 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: October 31, 1999 - November 06, 1999 Message-ID: <03ADFDCA134EC5248525681B007DE867.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id QAA15486 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2186 Calendar of the Soul [October 31, 1999 - November 06, 1999] Thirty-first Week (November 3-9) The light from spirit depths Strives to ray outwards, sun-imbued; Transformed to forceful will of life It shines into the senses' dullness To bring to birth the powers Whereby creative forces, soul-impelled, Shall ripen into human deeds. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Das Licht aus Geistestiefen, Nach aussen strebt es sonnenhaft: Es wird zur Lebenswillenskraft Und leuchtet in der Sinne Dumpfheit, Um Kräfte zu entbinden, Die Schaffensmächte aus Seelentrieben Im Menschenwerke reifen lassen. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+31 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 31 20:23:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18572 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:23:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA29259; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:19:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (popper1.vphos.net [207.102.129.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA29026 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:15:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.80]) by popper1.vphos.net ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:16:51 -0800 Message-ID: <001601bf240f$264f3de0$50cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: Subject: Thanks to Two People... Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 18:16:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2187 For brightening our weeks. First, Jane Sherry for her diligent posting of COTS==Steiner's Calendar of the Soul==every week for us. I just printed our today's [this week's] verse to keep in front of me at the computer. Second, Allan Balliett, who I suppose is finishing up the Bioneers Conference in San Francisco and will be back soon, brimming with new ideas. Allan's benign moderatorship of BDNOW! has enlivened and informed our discussions for close on to 200 weeks now. Bless 'em both... Woody From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 31 21:30:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19074 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:30:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA03932; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:23:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp3.hawaii.rr.com (smtp3.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03660 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:19:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from phyl - 24.94.79.93 by smtp3.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Sun, 31 Oct 1999 16:17:39 -1000 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991031084902.024b1d90@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 16:15:19 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: Re: weeds again In-Reply-To: <381C8DEE.E25A27AD@ap.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_29220681==_.ALT" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2188 --=====================_29220681==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear Davidi and Friends, I sure hope someone has some effective suggestions for eradicating the formidable and apparently indomitable bermuda grass. The Hawaiian name for it is mania nia (mah-nee-ah nee-ah). It invades our compost piles and proliferates in many of our garden beds. I became more conscious of its penetrating tenacity when we discovered it had grow clean through several rock hard, baseball sized beet roots. The image still sends shivers and thrills pulsing along my bones. I've seen this stuff migrate up to five or six feet in a matter of a couple of weeks. Of course its rhizomes are sending down prolific roots all along the way. And, each new root node becomes another center raying out yet more tentacles ever intensifying the mat. Tillage just helps the darn stuff propagate even further! Phyl ============================================== pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com Phyl Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. Waianae, HI 96792 808-696-1010 808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_29220681==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dear Davidi and Friends,

I sure hope someone has some effective suggestions for eradicating the formidable and apparently indomitable bermuda grass. The Hawaiian name for it is mania nia (mah-nee-ah nee-ah). It invades our compost piles and proliferates in many of our garden beds. I became  more conscious of its penetrating tenacity when we discovered it had grow clean through several rock hard, baseball sized beet roots. The image still sends shivers and thrills pulsing along my bones. I've seen this stuff migrate up to five or six feet in a matter of a couple of weeks. Of course its rhizomes are sending down prolific roots all along the way. And, each new root node becomes another center raying out yet more tentacles ever intensifying the mat. Tillage just helps the darn stuff propagate even further!

Phyl


==============================================
pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com

Phyl Dwyer
Kahumana Farm
86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd.
Waianae, HI 96792

808-696-1010
808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_29220681==_.ALT-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 31 23:30:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA20026 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:30:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA12392; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA12318 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:23:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ap.net (D-26.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.59]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20318 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:24:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <381D1608.8D198B62@ap.net> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:24:40 -0800 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds again References: <4.2.0.58.19991031084902.024b1d90@pop-server> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------2A4999F9F492F22B8C8FF064" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2189 --------------2A4999F9F492F22B8C8FF064 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hawaii! At least the name for bermuda grass sounds musical in Hawaiian. While cleaning out my files today, I did run across a reference to applying the potentized ash of the plant at 8x to the infested area but there were no instructions provided as to the proper procedure for burning and collection or amount to apply or method of application. If anybody out there can supply a reference, I'm sure many of us would appreciate not having to search thru the archives. >From another perspective, I reread my posting, and have to admit that only certain parts of the garden are thick with bermuda grass and we had a pretty good harvest of veggies. If the soil is providing the nutrients and the formative forces are supporting the edibles, then philosphy seems to provide at least an interim answer. Just control it out of the rows, some effort but a potential solution, and see what nature intends. At least on my property, it confines itself to a particular location and does not grow more than 3 feet past the edge of the cultivated area. Comments and suggestions appreciated. Thanks. Davidi/whirlderv@ap.net Phyl Dwyer wrote: > Dear Davidi and Friends, > > I sure hope someone has some effective suggestions for eradicating the > formidable and apparently indomitable bermuda grass. The Hawaiian name > for it is mania nia (mah-nee-ah nee-ah). It invades our compost piles > and proliferates in many of our garden beds. I became more conscious > of its penetrating tenacity when we discovered it had grow clean > through several rock hard, baseball sized beet roots. The image still > sends shivers and thrills pulsing along my bones. I've seen this stuff > migrate up to five or six feet in a matter of a couple of weeks. Of > course its rhizomes are sending down prolific roots all along the way. > And, each new root node becomes another center raying out yet more > tentacles ever intensifying the mat. Tillage just helps the darn stuff > propagate even further! > > Phyl > > ==============================================pdwyer@hawaii.rr.comPhyl > DwyerKahumana Farm86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd.Waianae, HI > 96792808-696-1010808-696-2020 Fax --------------2A4999F9F492F22B8C8FF064 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hawaii!

At least the name for bermuda grass sounds musical in Hawaiian.  While cleaning out my files today, I did run across a reference to applying the potentized ash of the plant at 8x to the infested area but there were no instructions provided as to the proper procedure for burning and collection or amount to apply or method of application.  If anybody out there can supply a reference, I'm sure many of us would appreciate not having to search thru the archives.

From another perspective, I reread my posting, and have to admit that only certain parts of the garden are thick with bermuda grass and we had a pretty good harvest of veggies.  If the soil is providing the nutrients and the formative forces are supporting the edibles, then philosphy seems to provide at least an interim answer.  Just control it out of the rows, some effort but a potential solution, and see what nature intends.  At least on my property, it confines itself to a particular location and does not grow more than 3 feet past the edge of the cultivated area.
Comments and suggestions appreciated.  Thanks.  Davidi/whirlderv@ap.net

Phyl Dwyer wrote:

Dear Davidi and Friends,

I sure hope someone has some effective suggestions for eradicating the formidable and apparently indomitable bermuda grass. The Hawaiian name for it is mania nia (mah-nee-ah nee-ah). It invades our compost piles and proliferates in many of our garden beds. I became  more conscious of its penetrating tenacity when we discovered it had grow clean through several rock hard, baseball sized beet roots. The image still sends shivers and thrills pulsing along my bones. I've seen this stuff migrate up to five or six feet in a matter of a couple of weeks. Of course its rhizomes are sending down prolific roots all along the way. And, each new root node becomes another center raying out yet more tentacles ever intensifying the mat. Tillage just helps the darn stuff propagate even further!

Phyl
 ==============================================pdwyer@hawaii.rr.comPhyl DwyerKahumana Farm86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd.Waianae, HI 96792808-696-1010808-696-2020 Fax

--------------2A4999F9F492F22B8C8FF064-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Oct 31 23:33:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA20063 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:33:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA12653; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:29:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAB12489 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:26:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.75.57] ("port 2049"@[148.233.75.57]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FKI00G7Q4C979@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 22:26:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:27:59 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: compost In-reply-to: <000f01bf2267$e56153c0$4acb6cce@netacc.net> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id XAA12490 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2190 >Guillermo: > ><finished compost ?, How do you do it ?, how long do you have to wait for >the preps to do their act on the compost ?>> > >I had a similar question when I arrived at the BBar ranch early in the 1995 >season to begin to garden for the guest kitchen. My predecessor [non BD] >had left me a large compost pile, probably 30-35 feet long and 7-8 feet wide >at the ground level--mostly horsemanure, piled at least a year. I called >Hugh Courtney at Josephine Porter Institute and asked what was basically >your question. Told him the compost looked pretty good, that I needed to >use it beginning in about 4 weeks, and could I prep it? His answer: a >resounding YES. My understanding of his intuition and experience in the >matter is that, contrary to my previous thinking, the purpose of the preps >is not so much to improve the composting process itself--though BD compost >is always gorgeous--but that the compost is the vehicle or medium for >getting the preps onto the land. Sure, all the books tell us to prep the >pile immediately it's finished, or at least once it's settled, but the >"radiation" of the preps' influences throughout the pile doesn't take months >and months. It happens, and it happens as we intend it to happen. Go ahead >and prep your finished pile with your best and purest intentions for the >land! > >Woody Thanks Woody: I was thinking on the same lines, but needed some confirmation. Those compost piles I have were made with so much care, that I wanted them to be the best compost posible; that is BD compost. At the time I started the piles I did not have any compost preps avail, now I do and did not wanted to waste them. I will leave the compost still with the preps for about a month and then I'll use it. It is a pitty Hugh Courtney is not on line, but on the other hand, I am glad there is always generous BD-Now people willing to share information, experiences and resources. Warm Greetings (For Barbara too) Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 00:47:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA20595 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 00:47:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA20786; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 00:42:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA20528 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 00:38:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.220]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991101042113.CSYS4128685.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:21:13 +1300 Message-ID: <381D14A5.481F@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:18:45 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds again References: <4.2.0.58.19991031084902.024b1d90@pop-server> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2191 Phyl and dasvid And have you tried to pepper it, using the runners as the burning agent? Glen A. Phyl Dwyer wrote: > > Dear Davidi and Friends, > > I sure hope someone has some effective suggestions for eradicating the > formidable and apparently indomitable bermuda grass. The Hawaiian name > for it is mania nia (mah-nee-ah nee-ah). It invades our compost piles > and proliferates in many of our garden beds. I became more conscious > of its penetrating tenacity when we discovered it had grow clean > through several rock hard, baseball sized beet roots. The image still > sends shivers and thrills pulsing along my bones. I've seen this stuff > migrate up to five or six feet in a matter of a couple of weeks. Of > course its rhizomes are sending down prolific roots all along the way. > And, each new root node becomes another center raying out yet more > tentacles ever intensifying the mat. Tillage just helps the darn stuff > propagate even further! > > Phyl > > ============================================== > pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com > > Phyl Dwyer > Kahumana Farm > 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. > Waianae, HI 96792 > > 808-696-1010 > 808-696-2020 Fax From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 01:18:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA20765 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 01:18:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA22138; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 01:14:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA22082 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 01:13:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.72] (r-67.134.alltel.net [166.102.67.134]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id AAA16927 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 00:15:24 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 00:15:24 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991031084902.024b1d90@pop-server> References: <381C8DEE.E25A27AD@ap.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: weeds again Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2192 > Dear Davidi and Friends, > > I sure hope someone has some effective suggestions for eradicating the >formidable and apparently indomitable bermuda grass. The Hawaiian name for >it is mania nia (mah-nee-ah nee-ah). It invades our compost piles and >proliferates in many of our garden beds. I became more conscious of its >penetrating tenacity when we discovered it had grow clean through several >rock hard, baseball sized beet roots. The image still sends shivers and >thrills pulsing along my bones. I've seen this stuff migrate up to five or >six feet in a matter of a couple of weeks. Of course its rhizomes are >sending down prolific roots all along the way. And, each new root node >becomes another center raying out yet more tentacles ever intensifying the >mat. Tillage just helps the darn stuff propagate even further! > > Phyl > > ============================================== pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com > Phyl Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. Waianae, HI 96792 > 808-696-1010 808-696-2020 Fax Dear Phil, Davidi, etc. I don't know if you remember, Phil, when you lived in this neck of the woods I used to have serious problems with coastal bermuda in my fields and garden beds. As you point out it can grow clear through your hardiest root crops, and weeding is a frightfully pusilanimous defense. Culltivation with tillers, harrows, etc. just spreads the stuff. But I don't have any problem with it any more. It probably has been more than five years since I saw a potato with a bermuda root growing through it, and potatoes is one of my main money crops. What the heck did I do? I got rid of it by accident, just like I got rid of the comfrey where it had run rampant in my fields and been spread by tillage. I don't know if this will work for you where you are. I just know it worked for me. I rotate crops, and field corn as well as sweet corn are part of my rotation. Winter rye cover crops are a part of each years rotation too. Both get up there thick and tall--much taller than bermuda ever hoped of getting. And shade kills bermuda so effectively it isn't funny. Whenever I plant corn I also simultaneously plant soybeans down the middles between the corn rows. The corn gets up there robust and tall while the soybeans sprawl a foot or two high, spilling over through the corn rows and making a kudzu-like blanket. Then when everything matures and I mow down my corn and soybeans I come back with winter rye/crimson clover/turnip/china rose radish/southern giant curled mustard and kale all mixed together. I broadcast and till this in, and it makes a blanket that finishes choking out any last surviving wisps of bermuda over the winter (which you don't really have much of in Hawaii). Anyway, the secret to getting rid of bermuda is shade. It is a whimp and shade beats it every time, no contest. Why does bermuda come up through the pavement? Because it loves the sun. Pavement usually means there is no competition for the sun. That's bermuda's kind of thing. Grow something that's bigger than it is and that shades it and it is dead. Of course, beets, potatoes, onions, garlic, etc. don't do this and bermuda is a spoiler for these crops. So the secret is to rotate these crops with things like corn/soybeans and rye/vetch. Have fun with this. Regards, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 01:38:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA20909 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 01:38:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA23045; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 01:34:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmx07.globecomm.net (rmx07.iname.net [165.251.8.75]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA22757 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 01:29:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from web09.pub01 by rmx07.globecomm.net (8.9.1/8.8.0) with SMTP id BAA12810 ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 01:31:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <384855410.941437889891.JavaMail.root@web09.pub01> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 06:31:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds again Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.161.18.181 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2193 ------Original Message------ From: Hugh Lovel To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sent: November 1, 1999 6:15:24 AM GMT Subject: Re: weeds again Then when everything matures and I mow down my corn and soybeans I come back with winter rye/crimson clover/turnip/china rose radish/southern giant curled mustard and kale all mixed together. I broadcast and till this in, and it makes a blanket that finishes choking out any last surviving wisps of bermuda over the winter (which you don't really have much of in Hawaii). How would you do this in a 90 day growing season? The best thing I've been able to think of is to cover my beds with a thick mulch for the winter. I don't know how to plant a cover crop for an Idaho winter. Pam ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 02:36:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA21700 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 02:36:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA24873; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 02:31:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA24812 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 02:30:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from ap.net (D-18.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.51]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA00913 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:31:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <381D41D5.DB7177EC@ap.net> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:31:33 -0800 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds again References: <4.2.0.58.19991031084902.024b1d90@pop-server> <381D14A5.481F@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2194 Glen: My BD archives from the last few months contained a reference to burning samples to ash and potentising to 8x before applying to area infested. Do you have a reference detailing steps for this or "peppering"? Thanks. :o) David Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > Phyl and dasvid > > And have you tried to pepper it, using the runners as the burning agent? > > Glen A. > > Phyl Dwyer wrote: > > > > Dear Davidi and Friends, > > > > I sure hope someone has some effective suggestions for eradicating the > > formidable and apparently indomitable bermuda grass. The Hawaiian name > > for it is mania nia (mah-nee-ah nee-ah). It invades our compost piles > > and proliferates in many of our garden beds. I became more conscious > > of its penetrating tenacity when we discovered it had grow clean > > through several rock hard, baseball sized beet roots. The image still > > sends shivers and thrills pulsing along my bones. I've seen this stuff > > migrate up to five or six feet in a matter of a couple of weeks. Of > > course its rhizomes are sending down prolific roots all along the way. > > And, each new root node becomes another center raying out yet more > > tentacles ever intensifying the mat. Tillage just helps the darn stuff > > propagate even further! > > > > Phyl > > > > ============================================== > > pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com > > > > Phyl Dwyer > > Kahumana Farm > > 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. > > Waianae, HI 96792 > > > > 808-696-1010 > > 808-696-2020 Fax From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 02:40:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA21725 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 02:40:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA25222; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 02:36:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail8.wlv.netzero.net (mail8.wlv.netzero.net [209.247.163.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA25127 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 02:34:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 4542 invoked by uid 0); 1 Nov 1999 07:36:11 -0000 Received: from pppa16-resalechattanooga1-2r1105.saturn.bbn.com (HELO themachine) (4.16.210.75) by mail8.wlv.netzero.net with SMTP; 1 Nov 1999 07:36:11 -0000 Message-ID: <000801bf243b$668f4900$4bd21004@themachine> From: "Captain Dot" To: References: <381C8DEE.E25A27AD@ap.net> Subject: Re: weeds again Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 02:33:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2195 Try putting geese into the rotation of animals on your farm. Southern farmers used to graze cows or goats, follow that with some rooting pigs to plow the land. Then they would plant the crop and after the crop was established they would allow "weed geese" to forage. Also you may want to check with a local farmer to find out what he learned from his great grand parents. Sometimes there is great wisdom available from across the backyard fence. Sincerely, John P. Gallerie ----- Original Message ----- From: David Isaacs To: Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 1:43 PM Subject: weeds again > seeking hints for control / defeat of "bermuda grass". strong thin vine > travels above and below soil, puts out shoots every 3-4 inches or so and > creates thick impenetrable mats.. spent springtime cutting digging and > pulling . a little resting on my laurels and not enough mulch and the > little devils are everywhere. soil supports everything but potatoes > just fine. lots leafy veggies, basil,sage, tomatoes, squash, beets, > sunflowers. this stuff is prolific, just a shame its not edible. > thanks. > davidi/whirlderv@ap.net > > __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 03:04:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA21998 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 03:04:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA26107; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 03:00:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA25973 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 02:56:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.72] (r-67.134.alltel.net [166.102.67.134]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id BAA14286 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 01:58:01 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 01:58:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <384855410.941437889891.JavaMail.root@web09.pub01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: weeds again Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2196 >------Original Message------ >From: Hugh Lovel >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Sent: November 1, 1999 6:15:24 AM GMT >Subject: Re: weeds again > >Then when everything matures and I mow down my >corn and soybeans I come back with winter rye/crimson clover/turnip/china >rose radish/southern giant curled mustard and kale all mixed together. I >broadcast and till this in, and it makes a blanket that finishes choking >out any last surviving wisps of bermuda over the winter (which you don't >really have much of in Hawaii). > > >How would you do this in a 90 day growing season? The best thing I've been >able to think of is to cover my beds with a thick mulch for the winter. I >don't know how to plant a cover crop for an Idaho winter. > >Pam > >----------------------------------------------- >FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com >Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com Pam, The sweet corn I grow is 85 day corn. And considering the amount of winter wheat grown in Idaho, I don't see what problem you might have. Sure, I know the rye wouldn't GROW in the winter. But it would survive. It would survive especially well those winters when there is a little snow on the ground. And rye (or wheat) would be the first thing growing in the spring so it should beat most other things. I find many of my brassicas are killed (like China Rose or Southern Giant Curled) but plant canola (rape) in with the rye. It is a wonderful greens and the flowering tips (last three inches of the tips) when they are shooting before they open their yellow blossoms are the choicest of spring vegetables. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 06:16:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA22755 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 06:16:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA02499; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 06:10:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA02258 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 06:06:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [210.55.144.61] by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991101111213.FNTY806758.mta2-rme@[210.55.144.61]> for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 00:12:13 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 00:08:25 +1300 Subject: Re: AG. & $ From: "Daniel Bridler" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3024346105_403639_MIME_Part" Message-Id: <19991101111213.FNTY806758.mta2-rme@[210.55.144.61]> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2197 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3024346105_403639_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ---------- From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: AG. & $ Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 7:49 AM When I worked for the Demeter Bakery, Sydnew, Australia, they had endless discussion on how to emancipate our wages from our work. I don't know if they ever resolved the problem. If Hamish McKay is listening, then perhaps he can answer the question. It is a very difficult problem. M. Hi Michael, your mention of emancipation of wages from work is very interesting. Some Waldorf Schools apply a similar approach: the teachers wages are not set in function to their achievement,skills or work load, but rather in function to their personal and their family's needs. This is really a attempt to break that very destructive relation that we see today:very often, materialistic thinking rules and pollutes, instead of supporting, the freedom of intellectual or artistic work. But you are right: it is a very difficult problem. What happens when the teacher in question decides he "needs" a better car or a ski holiday , for example. Does the whole community shares his understanding of "needs"? It can really test the strength of a group. It is easier to apply in a small group obviously, with more insight and understanding of each other. It just strikes me that this comes back full circle to what Glen suggested: that some forms of exchanges seem to be limited to small entities and as soon as we try to bring them out into the big bad world, the problems start. BD and the ideals behind it are facing these problems more and more as they spread. A great topic. Let's hear more about it. Daniel --MS_Mac_OE_3024346105_403639_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: AG. & $


----------
From: "Michael Roboz" <mroboz@infoserve.net>
To: <bdnow@envirolink.org>
Subject: AG. & $
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 7:49 AM


  When I worked for the Demeter Bakery, Sydnew, Austr= alia,  they had endless discussion on how to emancipate our wages from = our work.  I don't know if they ever resolved the problem.  If Ham= ish McKay is listening, then perhaps he can answer the question.
It is a very difficult problem. M.

Hi Michael,
your mention of emancipation of wages from work is very interesting. Some W= aldorf Schools apply a similar approach: the teachers wages are not set in f= unction to their achievement,skills or work load, but rather in function to = their personal and their family's needs. This is really a attempt to break t= hat very destructive relation that we see today:very often, materialistic th= inking rules and pollutes, instead of supporting, the freedom of intellectua= l or artistic work. But you are right: it is a very difficult problem.
What happens when the teacher in question decides he "needs" a be= tter car or a ski holiday , for example. Does the whole community shares his= understanding of "needs"?
It can really test the strength of a group. It is easier to apply in a smal= l group obviously, with more insight and understanding of each other.
It just strikes me that this comes back full circle to what Glen suggested:= that some forms of exchanges seem to be limited to small entities and as so= on as we try to bring them out into the big bad world, the problems start. B= D and the ideals behind it are facing these problems more and more as they s= pread.
A great topic. Let's hear more about it.

            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;  Daniel

 
--MS_Mac_OE_3024346105_403639_MIME_Part-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 07:52:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA23175 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:52:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA06727; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:49:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from commando.mobilixnet.dk ([195.78.82.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA06601 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:47:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from carol (dialin-101-028.mobilixnet.dk [212.97.194.28]) by commando.mobilixnet.dk (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA73857 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:49:12 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991101134318.00a40850@mail.mobilixnet.dk> X-Sender: mob34587@mail.mobilixnet.dk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 13:43:18 +0100 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Carol Jensen Subject: potato blight Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2198 I don't have the blight myself, but it is rampant in Denmark and in Ireland. I was wondering if one could burn affected potatoes and pepper them - if burning fungus would work as well as any other peppering. Have any of you tried it? Carol ----------------------------------- Webmasters! You need help! Read my article "Grammar for Webmasters" at ------------------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 07:52:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA23176 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:52:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA06690; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:49:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from commando.mobilixnet.dk ([195.78.82.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA06595 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:47:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from carol (dialin-101-028.mobilixnet.dk [212.97.194.28]) by commando.mobilixnet.dk (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA73836 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:49:08 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991101131331.00a47ad0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> X-Sender: mob34587@mail.mobilixnet.dk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 13:13:31 +0100 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Carol Jensen Subject: Re: weeds again In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991031084902.024b1d90@pop-server> References: <381C8DEE.E25A27AD@ap.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2199 At 16:15 31-10-1999 -1000, you wrote: >>>> Dear Davidi and Friends, I sure hope someone has some effective suggestions for eradicating the formidable and apparently indomitable bermuda grass. The Hawaiian name for it is mania nia (mah-nee-ah nee-ah). It invades our compost piles and proliferates in many of our garden beds. I became more conscious of its penetrating tenacity when we discovered it had grow clean through several rock hard, baseball sized beet roots. The image still sends shivers and thrills pulsing along my bones. I've seen this stuff migrate up to five or six feet in a matter of a couple of weeks. Of course its rhizomes are sending down prolific roots all along the way. And, each new root node becomes another center raying out yet more tentacles ever intensifying the mat. Tillage just helps the darn stuff propagate even further! Phyl ============================================== pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com Phyl Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. Waianae, HI 96792 808-696-1010 808-696-2020 Fax <<<<<<<< Phyl, one digs constantly and throws the damned stuff away. I don't know Bermuda grass, but I know crab grass, and that is also a pain. Dig with a fork so you don't cut them in two. Carol ----------------------------------- Webmasters! You need help! Read my article "Grammar for Webmasters" at < ------------------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 09:09:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24054 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:09:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12194; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:06:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12003 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:03:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.163] (r-67.163.alltel.net [166.102.67.163]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id IAA05479 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 08:04:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 08:04:31 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991101134318.00a40850@mail.mobilixnet.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: potato blight Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2200 >I don't have the blight myself, but it is rampant in Denmark and in >Ireland. I was wondering if one could burn affected potatoes and pepper >them - if burning fungus would work as well as any other peppering. > >Have any of you tried it? > >Carol >----------------------------------- >Webmasters! You need help! Read my >article "Grammar for Webmasters" at >------------------------------------ Carol, In my own case I've found that the 501 in a BD sequential spray program seemed to take care of potato and tomato blights. Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 09:27:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24312 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:27:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13824; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:24:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13518 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:19:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.204]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991101142707.IOLR4128685.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 03:27:07 +1300 Message-ID: <381DA2A6.7B73@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 03:24:38 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds again References: <4.2.0.58.19991031084902.024b1d90@pop-server> <381D14A5.481F@xtra.co.nz> <381D41D5.DB7177EC@ap.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2201 David I would dry some of the runner out for a week or so Then burn enough to provide 1 gram of ash. Then you can get 9 grams of lactose /milk sugar. (Try a brewers shop) Put the ash and lactose in a mortar and pestle and grind together for an hour.=D1 Repeat again. that is get 1 gram of this ash to 9 grams of lactose and grind for 1 hr = D2 or get 1 gram of D1 and mix with 9 mls of water and potentise for 2.5 mins. ie shake rhythmically for 2.5 mins =D2. repeat six more times for D8 note if you want D8 =2000ml then D7 = 200mls, D6 =20mls I suggest you make 100mls of D5 so you have plenty in store for the future, you may like to spray it whenever you are spraying 500 etc. I would use 250mls of this D8 solution per hectare. 500 mls is OK too if you feel the need. Keep me informed of your results. Glen A. David Isaacs wrote: > > Glen: My BD archives from the last few months contained a reference to > burning samples to ash and potentising to 8x before applying to area > infested. Do you have a reference detailing steps for this or "peppering"? > Thanks. :o) David > > Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > > > Phyl and dasvid > > > > And have you tried to pepper it, using the runners as the burning agent? > > > > Glen A. > > > > Phyl Dwyer wrote: > > > > > > Dear Davidi and Friends, > > > > > > I sure hope someone has some effective suggestions for eradicating the > > > formidable and apparently indomitable bermuda grass. The Hawaiian name > > > for it is mania nia (mah-nee-ah nee-ah). It invades our compost piles > > > and proliferates in many of our garden beds. I became more conscious > > > of its penetrating tenacity when we discovered it had grow clean > > > through several rock hard, baseball sized beet roots. The image still > > > sends shivers and thrills pulsing along my bones. I've seen this stuff > > > migrate up to five or six feet in a matter of a couple of weeks. Of > > > course its rhizomes are sending down prolific roots all along the way. > > > And, each new root node becomes another center raying out yet more > > > tentacles ever intensifying the mat. Tillage just helps the darn stuff > > > propagate even further! > > > > > > Phyl > > > > > > ============================================== > > > pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com > > > > > > Phyl Dwyer > > > Kahumana Farm > > > 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. > > > Waianae, HI 96792 > > > > > > 808-696-1010 > > > 808-696-2020 Fax From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 09:39:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24634 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:39:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14891; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:33:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14605 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:32:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.204]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991101143916.IQTP4128685.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 03:39:16 +1300 Message-ID: <381DA57F.3465@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 03:36:47 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: potato blight References: <3.0.5.32.19991101134318.00a40850@mail.mobilixnet.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2202 I have only grown commercial potatos once and blight was easily controlled by frequent use of the preps. 500 and barrel compost every couple of weeks interspersed with 501. Glen A Carol Jensen wrote: > > I don't have the blight myself, but it is rampant in Denmark and in Ireland. I was wondering if one could burn affected potatoes and pepper them - if burning fungus would work as well as any other peppering. > > Have any of you tried it? > > Carol > ----------------------------------- > Webmasters! You need help! Read my > article "Grammar for Webmasters" at > ------------------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 11:37:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27127 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:37:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28039; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:31:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27871 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:30:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d140.infoserve.net [199.175.157.140]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA22075 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 08:36:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001501bf2487$9cdbd220$8c9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: AG. & $ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 08:39:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF2444.8DDE5EC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2203 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF2444.8DDE5EC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Daniel &bdnowers, Yes, that was exactly one of the many questions I had in this topic. = My experience from my point of view at the time at Demeter Bakery was, = that, they were buying tremendous $worth of equipment to appear that = they were losing money (which they might have), at the same time, try to = keep the wages as low as possible. I was told by one of the lower = management persons that they were very happy and laughing when they got = me at such a low wage. I did not know what to ask, having just arrived = in Aussie, and did not know how much the cost of living was in Sydney, = vs. what I had experienced in NZ just prior. Another situation was previous to the above at a farm community in = Hawaii. We had board, food, many other needs when we needed them. We = all got a stipend, everybody. Did not matter what your "job" was or = "jobs". If somebody in the Community wanted something expensive, such = as a trip to the mainland, etc., often they worked extra hours off the = Community to earn that money. =20 The Vancouver Waldorf School uses the approach as mentioned by Daniel. = The teachers here have had to take cut after cut in their salaries due = to mismanagement of the monies plus plain just mis-management resulting = in many parents taking their children out. The result is that some = teachers then advertize in the Waldorf Bulletin for extras such as a = place to holiday, things that they need, etc. Those things are then = donated by the parent body to the teachers who ask. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Bridler To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 3:21 AM Subject: Re: AG. & $ =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ---------- From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: AG. & $ Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 7:49 AM =20 =20 =20 When I worked for the Demeter Bakery, Sydnew, Australia, they = had endless discussion on how to emancipate our wages from our work. I = don't know if they ever resolved the problem. If Hamish McKay is = listening, then perhaps he can answer the question. It is a very difficult problem. M. =20 Hi Michael, your mention of emancipation of wages from work is very = interesting. Some Waldorf Schools apply a similar approach: the teachers = wages are not set in function to their achievement,skills or work load, = but rather in function to their personal and their family's needs. This = is really a attempt to break that very destructive relation that we see = today:very often, materialistic thinking rules and pollutes, instead of = supporting, the freedom of intellectual or artistic work. But you are = right: it is a very difficult problem. What happens when the teacher in question decides he "needs" a = better car or a ski holiday , for example. Does the whole community = shares his understanding of "needs"? It can really test the strength of a group. It is easier to = apply in a small group obviously, with more insight and understanding of = each other.=20 It just strikes me that this comes back full circle to what Glen = suggested: that some forms of exchanges seem to be limited to small = entities and as soon as we try to bring them out into the big bad world, = the problems start. BD and the ideals behind it are facing these = problems more and more as they spread.=20 A great topic. Let's hear more about it. =20 Daniel =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF2444.8DDE5EC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: AG. & $
  Dear Daniel=20 &bdnowers,
 
  Yes, that was exactly one of the many = questions I had=20 in this topic.  My experience from my point of view at the time at = Demeter=20 Bakery was, that, they were buying tremendous $worth of equipment to = appear that=20 they were losing money (which they might have), at the same time, try to = keep=20 the wages as low as possible.  I was told by one of the lower = management=20 persons that they were very happy and laughing when they got me at such = a low=20 wage.  I did not know what to ask, having just arrived in Aussie, = and did=20 not know how much the cost of living was in Sydney, vs. what I had = experienced=20 in NZ just prior.
   Another situation was previous to the = above at a=20 farm community in Hawaii.  We had board, food, many other needs = when we=20 needed them.  We all got a stipend, everybody. Did not matter what = your=20 "job" was or "jobs".  If somebody in the = Community=20 wanted something expensive, such as a trip to the mainland, etc., often = they=20 worked extra hours off the Community to earn that money.
 
  The Vancouver Waldorf School uses the = approach as=20 mentioned by Daniel. The teachers here have had to take cut after cut in = their=20 salaries due to mismanagement of the monies plus plain just = mis-management=20 resulting in many parents taking their children out.  The result is = that=20 some teachers then advertize in the Waldorf Bulletin for extras such as = a place=20 to holiday, things that they need, etc.  Those things are then = donated by=20 the parent body to the teachers who ask.
 Michael
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Daniel Bridler <dbridler@xtra.co.nz>
To:= =20 bdnow@envirolink.org = <bdnow@envirolink.org>
D= ate:=20 Monday, November 01, 1999 3:21 AM
Subject: Re: AG. = &=20 $




----------
From: "Michael=20 Roboz" <mroboz@infoserve.net>
To: = <bdnow@envirolink.org>
Subj= ect:=20 AG. & $
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 7:49 AM


  When I worked for the Demeter Bakery, = Sydnew,=20 Australia,  they had endless discussion on how to = emancipate our=20 wages from our work.  I don't know if they ever resolved = the=20 problem.  If Hamish McKay is listening, then perhaps he can = answer=20 the question.
It is a very difficult problem. M.

Hi=20 Michael,
your mention of emancipation of wages from work is = very=20 interesting. Some Waldorf Schools apply a similar approach: the = teachers=20 wages are not set in function to their achievement,skills or = work load,=20 but rather in function to their personal and their family's = needs. This=20 is really a attempt to break that very destructive relation that = we see=20 today:very often, materialistic thinking rules and pollutes, = instead of=20 supporting, the freedom of intellectual or artistic work. But = you are=20 right: it is a very difficult problem.
What happens when the = teacher=20 in question decides he "needs" a better car or a ski = holiday ,=20 for example. Does the whole community shares his understanding = of=20 "needs"?
It can really test the strength of a = group. It is=20 easier to apply in a small group obviously, with more insight = and=20 understanding of each other.
It just strikes me that this = comes back=20 full circle to what Glen suggested: that some forms of exchanges = seem to=20 be limited to small entities and as soon as we try to bring them = out=20 into the big bad world, the problems start. BD and the ideals = behind it=20 are facing these problems more and more as they spread.
A = great=20 topic. Let's hear more about=20 = it.

          &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;     Daniel

<= /BODY> ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF2444.8DDE5EC0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 12:35:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28249 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:35:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05326; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:31:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04747 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:26:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.91] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.91]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FKJ00E013MIGN@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:08:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 10:25:05 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: weeds again In-reply-to: <381DA2A6.7B73@xtra.co.nz> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <4.2.0.58.19991031084902.024b1d90@pop-server> <381D14A5.481F@xtra.co.nz> <381D41D5.DB7177EC@ap.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2204 >David > I would dry some of the runner out for a week or so Then burn enough to >provide 1 gram of ash. Then you can get 9 grams of lactose /milk sugar. >(Try a brewers shop) Put the ash and lactose in a mortar and pestle and >grind together for an hour.=D1 Repeat again. that is get 1 gram of this >ash to 9 grams of lactose and grind for 1 hr = D2 or get 1 gram of D1 >and mix with 9 mls of water and potentise for 2.5 mins. ie shake >rhythmically for 2.5 mins =D2. repeat six more times for D8 > >note if you want D8 =2000ml then D7 = 200mls, D6 =20mls > >I suggest you make 100mls of D5 so you have plenty in store for the >future, you may like to spray it whenever you are spraying 500 etc. > >I would use 250mls of this D8 solution per hectare. 500 mls is OK too if >you feel the need. > >Keep me informed of your results. > >Glen A. Hi Glen: Hi do you specifically use lactose ?, Just curious. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 12:35:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28257 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:35:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05222; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:30:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04738 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:26:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.91] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.91]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FKJ00E013MIGN@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:08:48 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 10:40:04 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: BD & $ In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <381A97DF.F47@xtra.co.nz> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2205 >I want to point to one thing, though. In my book, page 30, where I define >sympathetic vibratory physics I quote Rudolf Steiner. "The famous >technology of our days will come to its end soon because she will in a >certain way wind up herself. The following phenomenon will then appear: man >will achieve the faculty to employ the fine vibrations fo his ethereal body >to impulsate mechanical devices. The individual will be able to transmit >his own vibrations to the machine, and only he will be able to set the >machine in motion by the vibrations generated by himself. The men who are >now practical technicians will soon discover they are standing before a >complete change as to what one calls practical, when man will be involved >with his WILL in the objective FEELING of the world." Hi Hugh: I friend of mine; Oscar Bon, whom I believe you meet at the "radionics" conference this year asked me if Steiner ever mentioned radionics in his works. The above quote seems to me a step in that direction, can you please give me the reference. I love your book, it is full of usefull info and it is fun and easy to read, but, as a pitfall, you do not include references. Thanks and regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 12:35:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28266 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:35:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05273; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:31:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04741 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:26:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.91] ("port 2048"@[148.233.78.91]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FKJ00E013MIGN@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:08:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:01:00 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: COTS: October 31, 1999 - November 06, 1999 In-reply-to: <03ADFDCA134EC5248525681B007DE867.0000000000000000@webcity> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA04744 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2206 > Calendar of the Soul > > [October 31, 1999 - November 06, 1999] > > Thirty-first Week > (November 3-9) > > The light from spirit depths > Strives to ray outwards, sun-imbued; > Transformed to forceful will of life > It shines into the senses' dullness > To bring to birth the powers > Whereby creative forces, soul-impelled, > Shall ripen into human deeds. > ___________________________________ > > English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch > ___________________________________ > > Das Licht aus Geistestiefen, > Nach aussen strebt es sonnenhaft: > Es wird zur Lebenswillenskraft > Und leuchtet in der Sinne Dumpfheit, > Um Kräfte zu entbinden, > Die Schaffensmächte aus Seelentrieben > Im Menschenwerke reifen lassen. > ___________________________________________________________ > > Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: > C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 > > [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML > ___________________________________________________________ > >References > > 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+31 > > >-- >To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with > the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line Hi all: This weekend I went to a get together in Guadalajara with most of the people in Mexico involved in Anthroposophy, maily Waldorf related people. There I meet a wonderfull woman; Miriam Schwebsch, an Eurythmics artist. She has done a COTS translation into spanish using the Eurythmical interpretation of the sounds of the words in order to match them closely with the German original versión. I have Miriam's permision to publish her version on the net, is there anyone interested in this Spanish version ? Is there anyone interested in publishing this formally ? Here is a sample of this weeks verse (31 E') "La luz de honduras espirituales Hacia fuera pugna como sol: Deviene en vitales fuerzas volitivas Y alumbra en el letargo de los sentidos A desprender la fuerza que hace madurar En la obra humana Poderes creativos de animico afan" Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 13:35:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29374 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:35:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13330; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:30:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13131 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:29:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.91] ("port 2050"@[148.233.78.91]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FKJ000DB54WV7@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:41:24 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:42:33 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: weeds again In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <381DA2A6.7B73@xtra.co.nz> <4.2.0.58.19991031084902.024b1d90@pop-server> <381D14A5.481F@xtra.co.nz> <381D41D5.DB7177EC@ap.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2207 >Hi Glen: > >Hi do you specifically use lactose ?, Just curious. Sorry, it should say, Why, no Hi Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 13:57:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00133 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:57:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16395; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:53:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15595 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:48:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d140.infoserve.net [199.175.157.140]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA00307 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:54:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001c01bf249a$f83bdee0$8c9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Pam's weed question! Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:57:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF2457.E93543C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2208 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF2457.E93543C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good point. You could do a winter rye/vetch cover crop, planted = sometime in Aug. at leas a month before first frost. Then, when it starts going = again in the spring, either till it in, mow it over, or interplant something = in it for a while., such as corn/soybean to shade any surviving grass. Never dig it out and compost it. It will survive composting; I can = attest to that in my climate. My growing season is not much longer than yours = as I am up the mountain. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF2457.E93543C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Good point.  You could do a winter = rye/vetch cover=20 crop, planted sometime in
Aug. at leas a month before first = frost. =20 Then, when it starts going again
in the spring, either till it in, = mow it=20 over, or interplant something in it
for a while., such as = corn/soybean to=20 shade any surviving grass.
Never dig it out and compost it.  It = will=20 survive composting; I can attest
to that in my climate.  My = growing=20 season is not much longer than yours as I
am up the=20 mountain.
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF2457.E93543C0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 13:57:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00144 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:57:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16481; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:54:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16020 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d140.infoserve.net [199.175.157.140]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA00492 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:57:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002d01bf249b$6067a800$8c9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: COTS: October 31, 1999 - November 06, 1999 Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:00:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2209 Dear G., I am sure that people at the Goetheanum would like at least one copy of COTS in Spanish. There is an Anthr. Soc. in Spain, and, of course, in other Latin American countries. Sizeable one in Brazil, but, they might prefer Portugese. I know that there now are communities in Asian countries. Wonder if COTS has been translated into Japanese or other Asian languages. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Guillermo Romero To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 9:45 AM Subject: Re: COTS: October 31, 1999 - November 06, 1999 >> Calendar of the Soul >> >> [October 31, 1999 - November 06, 1999] >> >> Thirty-first Week >> (November 3-9) >> >> The light from spirit depths >> Strives to ray outwards, sun-imbued; >> Transformed to forceful will of life >> It shines into the senses' dullness >> To bring to birth the powers >> Whereby creative forces, soul-impelled, >> Shall ripen into human deeds. >> ___________________________________ >> >> English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch >> ___________________________________ >> >> Das Licht aus Geistestiefen, >> Nach aussen strebt es sonnenhaft: >> Es wird zur Lebenswillenskraft >> Und leuchtet in der Sinne Dumpfheit, >> Um Kräfte zu entbinden, >> Die Schaffensmächte aus Seelentrieben >> Im Menschenwerke reifen lassen. >> ___________________________________________________________ >> >> Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: >> C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 >> >> [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML >> ___________________________________________________________ >> >>References >> >> 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+31 >> >> >>-- >>To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with >> the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line > >Hi all: > >This weekend I went to a get together in Guadalajara with most of the people in Mexico involved in Anthroposophy, maily Waldorf related people. > >There I meet a wonderfull woman; Miriam Schwebsch, an Eurythmics artist. She has done a COTS translation into spanish using the Eurythmical interpretation of the sounds of the words in order to match them closely with the German original versión. > >I have Miriam's permision to publish her version on the net, is there anyone interested in this Spanish version ? Is there anyone interested in publishing this formally ? > >Here is a sample of this weeks verse (31 E') > >"La luz de honduras espirituales >Hacia fuera pugna como sol: >Deviene en vitales fuerzas volitivas >Y alumbra en el letargo de los sentidos >A desprender la fuerza que hace madurar >En la obra humana >Poderes creativos de animico afan" > >Regards > > > > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 14:16:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00620 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:16:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18943; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:12:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18794 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:10:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz ([202.50.81.131]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991101191607.IIDG806758.mta2-rme@nt_svr1.rangdc.govt.nz> for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:16:07 +1300 Received: by NT_SVR1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:03:22 +1300 Message-ID: <05B1AE08E484D3118E9500805F9A3B78B3D6@NT_SVR1> From: Lynne Sheridan To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: weeds again Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:03:18 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2210 Have you tried creating a trench around the area you wish to protect, that way you should be able to spot the runners before they jump the gap? Just a thought. Regards Lynne > -----Original Message----- > From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage [SMTP:Garuda@xtra.co.nz] > Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 5:19 PM > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Subject: Re: weeds again > > Phyl and dasvid > > And have you tried to pepper it, using the runners as the burning agent? > > Glen A. > > > > Phyl Dwyer wrote: > > > > Dear Davidi and Friends, > > > > I sure hope someone has some effective suggestions for eradicating the > > formidable and apparently indomitable bermuda grass. The Hawaiian name > > for it is mania nia (mah-nee-ah nee-ah). It invades our compost piles > > and proliferates in many of our garden beds. I became more conscious > > of its penetrating tenacity when we discovered it had grow clean > > through several rock hard, baseball sized beet roots. The image still > > sends shivers and thrills pulsing along my bones. I've seen this stuff > > migrate up to five or six feet in a matter of a couple of weeks. Of > > course its rhizomes are sending down prolific roots all along the way. > > And, each new root node becomes another center raying out yet more > > tentacles ever intensifying the mat. Tillage just helps the darn stuff > > propagate even further! > > > > Phyl > > > > ============================================== > > pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com > > > > Phyl Dwyer > > Kahumana Farm > > 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. > > Waianae, HI 96792 > > > > 808-696-1010 > > 808-696-2020 Fax From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 1 17:40:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05993 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13697; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:35:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub1.une.edu.au (postfix@[129.180.1.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13479 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:32:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from Enveng-dforster.une.edu.au (enveng-dforster.une.edu.au [129.180.135.50]) by mailhub1.une.edu.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 4E3855E75; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:34:06 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991102093508.007a4210@metz.une.edu.au> X-Sender: dforster@metz.une.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:35:08 +1100 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, BD NOW From: Dianne Forster Subject: sharing. In-Reply-To: <19991030143648.JJUO806758.mta2-rme@[210.55.32.14]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2211 At 03:33 31/10/99 +1300, Daniel Bridler wrote: > I am quite happy to share the bit of experience I have. > But then, did Glen not just warned me (and us) that this may be >commercially sensitive for me?!?! I think it will be a very sad day when we stop sharing our knowledge and experience with each other for whatever reason, especially economic. No one copies exactly what another person does as their situation, land, the way they are is different. It's the same with recipes. Some people hate to give their favourite recipes away. I love sharing. Noone, but noone ever makes my recipes the same. So that's diversity! It's wonderful and makes the world go round - just like love! Deanna From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 2 02:08:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA12782 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:08:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA26247; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:02:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA26076 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 01:58:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.147]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991102043222.TULS4128685.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 17:32:22 +1300 Message-ID: <381E68C1.1D3B@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 17:29:53 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds again References: <4.2.0.58.19991031084902.024b1d90@pop-server> <381D14A5.481F@xtra.co.nz> <381D41D5.DB7177EC@ap.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2212 > Hi Glen: > > Hi do you specifically use lactose ?, Just curious. > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Yes. GA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 2 02:10:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA12810 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:10:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA26484; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:06:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp3.hawaii.rr.com (smtp3.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA26388 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:05:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from phyl - 24.94.79.93 by smtp3.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:03:11 -1000 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991101210052.00985ad0@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 21:01:25 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: a-s: Genetic Engineering and You Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_32698359==_.ALT" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2213 --=====================_32698359==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed To anthropos-scientists in USA, Now's your chance to ask what your government and its officers are up to with GM (genetically mutilated) food. Please circulate this press release to your contacts in USA. Apologies if you received it by another route. David Heaf Wales, UK ************************************************** HHS NEWS U.S. Department of Health and Human Services P99-24 FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Judith Foulke: 202-205-4144 October 18, 1999 Broadcast Media: 301-827-3434 Consumer Inquiries: 888-SAFEFOOD FDA ANNOUNCES PUBLIC MEETINGS ON BIOENGINEERED FOODS The Food and Drug Administration today announced a new initiative to engage the public about foods made using bioengineering. This initiative will begin with a series of public meetings to be held in Chicago, Ill., Washington, D.C., and Oakland, Calif., this November and December. At the public meetings, the public will be informed about current FDA policy for assuring the safety of bioengineered foods. The public will be asked whether this policy should be modified and also to comment on appropriate means of providing information to the public about bioengineered products in the food supply. Under FDA policy developers of bioengineered foods are expected to consult with the agency before marketing such foods, to ensure that all safety and regulatory questions have been fully addressed. FDA's policy also requires special labeling for a bioengineered food in certain circumstances. For example, a bioengineered food would need to be called by a different or modified name if its composition were significantly different from its conventionally grown counterpart, or if its nutritive value has been significantly altered. Special labeling would be required if consumers need to be informed about a safety issue, such as the possible presence of an allergen that would not normally be found in the conventionally-grown product. "FDA makes sure that our food supply is among the safest in the world," said Health and Human Services Secretary Donna Shalala. "Although people have enthusiastically accepted new drugs made from biotechnology, some consumers have concerns about the use of this technology in foods, and we need to ask why those concerns exist and how we can address them." Modern bioengineering was first used to produce consumer products in the early 1980's when FDA approved important new drugs to treat a range of diseases. In the 1990's foods such as tomatoes, corn, and soybeans produced through bioengineering began to appear. To date, biotechnology firms have completed consultation with FDA on more than 40 food products, and a substantial portion of American cropland is planted with seeds produced using this technology. "FDA's food regulatory system relies on the best science available to protect the public," said FDA Commissioner Jane E. Henney, M.D. "Our scientists are not aware of any reason to question the safety of currently marketed foods produced through bioengineering. Nevertheless, as a science- based agency, FDA will consider any valid scientific information that suggests the agency should reevaluate its process for overseeing the safety of these foods." The first public meeting will be held on November 18 in Chicago, Ill., followed by a second on November 30, in Washington, D.C., and a third on December 13, in Oakland, Calif. ################################## +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Email anthropos-science-request@reading.ac.uk with the word help in the body of the message to get help with leaving, retrieving archive files etc. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ============================================== pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com Phyl Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. Waianae, HI 96792 808-696-1010 808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_32698359==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" To anthropos-scientists in USA,

Now's your chance to ask what your government and its officers are up to
with GM (genetically mutilated) food. Please circulate this press release
to your contacts in USA. Apologies if you received it by another route.

David Heaf
Wales, UK

**************************************************
HHS NEWS
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services

P99-24
FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Judith Foulke:       202-205-4144
October 18, 1999
Broadcast Media:     301-827-3434
Consumer Inquiries:  888-SAFEFOOD

FDA ANNOUNCES PUBLIC MEETINGS ON BIOENGINEERED FOODS
The Food and Drug Administration today announced a new initiative to engage
the public about foods made using bioengineering. This initiative will
begin with a series of public meetings to be held in Chicago, Ill.,
Washington, D.C., and Oakland, Calif., this November and December.
At the public meetings, the public will be informed about current FDA
policy for assuring the safety of bioengineered foods. The public will be
asked whether this policy should be modified and also to comment on
appropriate means of providing information to the public about
bioengineered products in the food supply.
Under FDA policy developers of bioengineered foods are expected to consult
with the agency before marketing such foods, to ensure that all safety and
regulatory questions have been fully addressed. FDA's policy also requires
special labeling for a bioengineered food in certain circumstances. For
example, a bioengineered food would need to be called by a different or
modified name if its composition were significantly different from its
conventionally grown counterpart, or if its nutritive value has been
significantly altered. Special labeling would be required if consumers need
to be informed about a safety issue, such as the possible presence of an
allergen that would not normally be found in the conventionally-grown
product.
"FDA makes sure that our food supply is among the safest in the world,"
said Health and Human Services Secretary Donna Shalala. "Although people
have enthusiastically accepted new drugs made from biotechnology, some
consumers have concerns about the use of this technology in foods, and we
need to ask why those concerns exist and how we can address them."
Modern bioengineering was first used to produce consumer products in the
early 1980's when FDA approved important new drugs to treat a range of
diseases. In the 1990's foods such as tomatoes, corn, and soybeans produced
through bioengineering began to appear. To date, biotechnology firms have
completed consultation with FDA on more than 40 food products, and a
substantial portion of American cropland is planted with seeds produced
using this technology.
"FDA's food regulatory system relies on the best science available to
protect the public," said FDA Commissioner Jane E. Henney, M.D. "Our
scientists are not aware of any reason to question the safety of currently
marketed foods produced through bioengineering. Nevertheless, as a science-
based agency, FDA will consider any valid scientific information that
suggests the agency should reevaluate its process for overseeing the safety
of these foods."
The first public meeting will be held on November 18 in Chicago, Ill.,
followed by a second on November 30, in Washington, D.C., and a third on
December 13, in Oakland, Calif.
##################################

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Email anthropos-science-request@reading.ac.uk with the word   help   in the
body of the message to get help with leaving, retrieving archive files etc.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


==============================================
pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com

Phyl Dwyer
Kahumana Farm
86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd.
Waianae, HI 96792

808-696-1010
808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_32698359==_.ALT-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 2 09:12:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16076 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:12:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18411; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:08:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18053 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:03:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.222] ("port 2049"@[148.233.78.222]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FKK00KFBPQ97O@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:03:48 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 08:04:58 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: weeds again In-reply-to: <381E68C1.1D3B@xtra.co.nz> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <4.2.0.58.19991031084902.024b1d90@pop-server> <381D14A5.481F@xtra.co.nz> <381D41D5.DB7177EC@ap.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2214 >> Hi Glen: >> >> Hi do you specifically use lactose ?, Just curious. >> >> Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >> Comala, Colima, MEXICO >> > >Yes. > >GA Not Hi, but WHY ? Glen. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 2 13:29:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21075 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:29:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19670; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:24:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19511 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:23:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.175]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991102182900.XUJB806758.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:29:00 +1300 Message-ID: <381F2D46.6C5A@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 07:28:22 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds again References: <4.2.0.58.19991031084902.024b1d90@pop-server> <381D14A5.481F@xtra.co.nz> <381D41D5.DB7177EC@ap.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2215 Guillermo Romero wrote: > > >> Hi Glen: > >> > >> Hi do you specifically use lactose ?, Just curious. > >> > >> Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > >> Comala, Colima, MEXICO > >> > > > >Yes. > > > >GA > > Not Hi, but WHY ? Glen. Mostly because this is what is used in homoeopathy for doing this job. I imagine it to be somewhat inert and very easily soluble into water for the next dilution. Glen A > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 2 15:04:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23181 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:04:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06621; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:53:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06195 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:50:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d146.infoserve.net [199.175.157.146]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA23807; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:55:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000c01bf256c$19e818c0$929dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: "Troy LETHBRIDGE Danyk" Cc: Subject: Fw:OFF/ ETHICAL OPTIONS NETWORK/ FYI Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:54:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2216 -----Original Message----- From: Collon FOX Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 11:34 AM Subject: ETHICAL OPTIONS NETWORK >Walter suggested that I run the following request by you. Anyone interested in participating, please go to the website >address at the end of the request. Thanks. > >Veronica Fox >BCARA > >BCARA members and friends are invited to complete a questionnaire by a B.C. group planning a web site called the >Ethical Options Network, a resource for conscientious Canadians seeking to address their social justice and >environmental concerns through eethical lifestyle and consumer choices. Please assist them by completing the survey at >www.cohousing.ca/cohsng8. > >>From Andrea Welling >awelling@sfu.ca > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 2 16:34:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24951 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:34:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20044; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:21:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mw2.texas.net (mw2.texas.net [206.127.30.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19362 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:16:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from dldavis.texas.net (tcnet02-05.austin.texas.net [209.99.40.68]) by mw2.texas.net (2.4/2.4) with SMTP id PAA08791 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:17:54 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <00aa01bf2577$9fda8f20$442863d1@dldavis.texas.net> From: "The Davis Family" To: Subject: Re: weeds again Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:17:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2217 I've read that in South America they get rid of bermuda by growing a sorghum/sundan hay for two years to shade the grass. Like Hugh says the grass needs sunlight to grow and if you can eliminate the light ,it will weaken it. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Lovel To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 12:17 AM Subject: Re: weeds again >Anyway, the secret to getting rid of bermuda is shade. It is a whimp and >shade beats it every time, no contest. Why does bermuda come up through the >pavement? Because it loves the sun. Pavement usually means there is no >competition for the sun. That's bermuda's kind of thing. Grow something >that's bigger than it is and that shades it and it is dead. Of course, >beets, potatoes, onions, garlic, etc. don't do this and bermuda is a >spoiler for these crops. So the secret is to rotate these crops with things >like corn/soybeans and rye/vetch. > >Have fun with this. > >Regards, >Hugh Lovel > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Nov 3 12:05:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11401 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:05:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28493; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:01:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.hawaii.rr.com (smtp2.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27793 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from phyl - 24.94.79.93 by smtp2.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:01:06 -1000 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991103062223.0097c0c0@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 06:52:46 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: Animals are Pure Gift Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2218 Dear Friends, Does anyone remember a book that had been suggested some time ago about the special place animals have in the grand scheme of things? As I recall it was authored by a native american, or had a tone similar to what one might expect from that perspective. I recall something to the effect, "animals are not our brothers, they are trapped in this evolutionary process along with us..." I have been marveling over my four legg-ed friends and pondering their "place". An overwhelming sense of gratitude often washes through me for them. Conscience too weighs heavy on me as regards my responsibility to them and how much I come up short in that regards. We have a couple of old horses getting progressively more lame. Mariah, 34 years old - bless her incredible heart, often falls now when walking. I have to put her down, but need to get a backhoe in here first to dig her grave. when she fell last night her hip gave such a crack. It took her half an hour before she decided she would get up again. Her freind of several years, Thunder, cried from his stall while waiting for her. Perhaps we'll put Kumu down at the same time - a 17 hand, 27 year old retired thoroughbred race horse with severe leg, hip, knee and ankle joint problems - and a heart bigger than his sizable chest that melts you raw. Our two little heifer calves, 10 months old, will be so lonely! They often bawl when put out to pasture until one of the horses joins them. The phenomenal astral lives of these beings have woven gossamer chains of iron into my fragile heart. Their bonds of blood and warmth and tears permeate our community through and through and hover over our fragile farm wafting about the trade winds like ships floating on a gentle sea. It is difficult to bear the burden of husbandry. Phyl ============================================== pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com Phyl Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. Waianae, HI 96792 808-696-1010 808-696-2020 Fax From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Nov 3 13:37:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13371 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 13:37:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09497; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 13:33:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.voyager.net (mail1.voyager.net [209.153.128.76]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08816 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 13:28:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from 169.207.202.86 (fibuli-2-32.mdm.chi.execpc.com [169.207.206.160]) by mail1.voyager.net (8.9.1/Voyager-MailX) with SMTP id NAA13702 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 13:30:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38208121.6990@starnetinc.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 12:38:25 -0600 From: Donna Feigel Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Animals are Pure Gift References: <4.2.0.58.19991103062223.0097c0c0@pop-server> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2219 Phyl-- I recall a lovely presentation of the animal's parallel world written by Henry Beston. It is quite similar to what you've described. Unfortunately I'm not able to locate his book to share with you at the moment. Someone else may have it handy before I do. Though not on the same level as Beston's insightful book, I have found several lovely animal benedictions in Earth Prayers, a compilation edited by Roberts & Amidon. It is recently published and easily attainable. If I recall correctly Beston's book was reprinted some years ago and it took me awhile to get it. > pondering their "place". An overwhelming sense of gratitude often washes through me for > them. Conscience too weighs heavy on me as regards my responsibility to > them Machaelle Small Wright of Perelandra Farm has a section in her Flower Essence book devoted to death and animals. Though I've not had horse companions, I have found her techiques helpful in my communication with cats, dogs, and injured small wild animals as we've lived and died with their declining days. Wright's book offers communication suggestions that are life-changing, transformational and honoring. If you are not familiar with the peace and release potential of flower essences you may want to check her work out to see if it's appropriate for you. Green Hope Farm in New Hampshire is another excellent source for flower essence created especially for our animal friends. They have been generous with their gifts of knowledge. Whatever your choices, may you be reassured that your dear friends embrace your great love and honor as it permeates all of time and space. Bless you for your kindness and respect. Donna From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Nov 3 14:46:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15083 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:46:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18961; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:42:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18664 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:39:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from 204.149.164.195 (mx3-52.ilhawaii.net [204.149.164.195]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA04551; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 13:41:35 -0600 Message-ID: <3820939B.2F61@smallfarms.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 09:57:15 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Animals are Pure Gift References: <4.2.0.58.19991103062223.0097c0c0@pop-server> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2220 Hi Phyl and folks, Your experience is shared to some extent by almost all of us who raise livestock. I breed, grass feed and finish market lambs. The breeding ewes have names and we talk about their personalities as well as their physical configuration. With the lambs, we tend not to get personal and think in terms of their physical traits, growth rate and health only. No names, just numbers. They're intentionally dehumanized to protect us from "them." Don't know of the book and would be interested if someone can find it. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Nov 3 18:16:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA19471 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:16:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01413; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:59:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA00402 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:48:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ap.net (D-02.Portal-03.ap.net [207.44.186.67]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04028 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 13:54:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3820AF13.29A2F1B3@ap.net> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 13:54:27 -0800 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: weed solutions Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------FCF1B9A39E967D482435AA79" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2221 --------------FCF1B9A39E967D482435AA79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Davidi, your California Weedman here friends - thanks for ALL the support. Have decided to try negotiation with the mother nature. We're borrowing some minature donkeys and staking them out at the ends of the cultivated area where they can enjoy the sweetness of the bermuda. And then we will manually remove all sunshine by covering the area with heavy cardboard for the winter. This also works super with local weeds. This covers 1/2 of the problem. For the rows, we're opting for aluminum sulfate in potency 5x, sprayed directly on the grass. This has worked for local bd wine growers but its not an overnite effect. Since shade is inimical, rather than plant cover crops, I'm going to try overplanting major leafy edibles. This will provide the shade; the donkeys and cardboard will remove the most concentrated stuff; the aluminum sulfate spray should slow it up enough that it will at least be controlled by spring and I'm preparing another field out here on the ranch in case this experiment fails. Look for good news in the spring. Merry Winter ALL. Best Regards, Davidi/whirlderv@ap.net David Isaacs wrote: > Hi Hawaii! > > At least the name for bermuda grass sounds musical in Hawaiian. While > cleaning out my files today, I did run across a reference to applying > the potentized ash of the plant at 8x to the infested area but there > were no instructions provided as to the proper procedure for burning > and collection or amount to apply or method of application. If > anybody out there can supply a reference, I'm sure many of us would > appreciate not having to search thru the archives. > > From another perspective, I reread my posting, and have to admit that > only certain parts of the garden are thick with bermuda grass and we > had a pretty good harvest of veggies. If the soil is providing the > nutrients and the formative forces are supporting the edibles, then > philosphy seems to provide at least an interim answer. Just control > it out of the rows, some effort but a potential solution, and see what > nature intends. At least on my property, it confines itself to a > particular location and does not grow more than 3 feet past the edge > of the cultivated area. > Comments and suggestions appreciated. Thanks. > Davidi/whirlderv@ap.net > > Phyl Dwyer wrote: > >> Dear Davidi and Friends, >> >> I sure hope someone has some effective suggestions for eradicating >> the formidable and apparently indomitable bermuda grass. The >> Hawaiian name for it is mania nia (mah-nee-ah nee-ah). It invades >> our compost piles and proliferates in many of our garden beds. I >> became more conscious of its penetrating tenacity when we >> discovered it had grow clean through several rock hard, baseball >> sized beet roots. The image still sends shivers and thrills pulsing >> along my bones. I've seen this stuff migrate up to five or six feet >> in a matter of a couple of weeks. Of course its rhizomes are sending >> down prolific roots all along the way. And, each new root node >> becomes another center raying out yet more tentacles ever >> intensifying the mat. Tillage just helps the darn stuff propagate >> even further! >> >> Phyl >> >> ==============================================pdwyer@hawaii.rr.comPhyl >> DwyerKahumana Farm86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd.Waianae, HI >> 96792808-696-1010808-696-2020 Fax > --------------FCF1B9A39E967D482435AA79 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Davidi, your California Weedman here friends - thanks for ALL the support.  Have decided to try negotiation with the mother nature. We're borrowing some minature donkeys and staking them out at the ends of the cultivated area where they can enjoy the sweetness of the bermuda.
And then we will manually remove all sunshine by covering the area with heavy cardboard for the winter.  This also works super with local weeds.  This covers 1/2 of the problem.  For the rows, we're opting for aluminum sulfate in potency 5x, sprayed directly on the grass.  This has worked for local bd wine growers but its not an overnite effect. Since shade is inimical, rather than plant cover crops, I'm going to try overplanting major leafy edibles.  This will provide the shade; the donkeys and cardboard will remove the most concentrated stuff;  the aluminum sulfate spray should slow it up enough that it will at least be controlled by spring and I'm preparing another field out  here on the ranch in case this experiment fails.  Look for good news in the spring.

Merry Winter ALL.
Best Regards,
Davidi/whirlderv@ap.net

David Isaacs wrote:

Hi Hawaii!

At least the name for bermuda grass sounds musical in Hawaiian.  While cleaning out my files today, I did run across a reference to applying the potentized ash of the plant at 8x to the infested area but there were no instructions provided as to the proper procedure for burning and collection or amount to apply or method of application.  If anybody out there can supply a reference, I'm sure many of us would appreciate not having to search thru the archives.

From another perspective, I reread my posting, and have to admit that only certain parts of the garden are thick with bermuda grass and we had a pretty good harvest of veggies.  If the soil is providing the nutrients and the formative forces are supporting the edibles, then philosphy seems to provide at least an interim answer.  Just control it out of the rows, some effort but a potential solution, and see what nature intends.  At least on my property, it confines itself to a particular location and does not grow more than 3 feet past the edge of the cultivated area.
Comments and suggestions appreciated.  Thanks.  Davidi/whirlderv@ap.net

Phyl Dwyer wrote:

Dear Davidi and Friends,

I sure hope someone has some effective suggestions for eradicating the formidable and apparently indomitable bermuda grass. The Hawaiian name for it is mania nia (mah-nee-ah nee-ah). It invades our compost piles and proliferates in many of our garden beds. I became  more conscious of its penetrating tenacity when we discovered it had grow clean through several rock hard, baseball sized beet roots. The image still sends shivers and thrills pulsing along my bones. I've seen this stuff migrate up to five or six feet in a matter of a couple of weeks. Of course its rhizomes are sending down prolific roots all along the way. And, each new root node becomes another center raying out yet more tentacles ever intensifying the mat. Tillage just helps the darn stuff propagate even further!

Phyl
 ==============================================pdwyer@hawaii.rr.comPhyl DwyerKahumana Farm86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd.Waianae, HI 96792808-696-1010808-696-2020 Fax

--------------FCF1B9A39E967D482435AA79-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Nov 3 21:08:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21745 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:08:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18868; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:03:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net (sys32.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.32]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA07628 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:59:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.211.141.141] (wt-d6-141.wt.net [208.211.141.141]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA02644 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:01:17 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: lamu@pop3.wt.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38208121.6990@starnetinc.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19991103062223.0097c0c0@pop-server> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:42:22 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Andy Richker Subject: Whoo Hoo, B-D apples in Tx Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2222 I was talking to our local produce guy at W Fds here in Houston,Tx. I try to educate them as some of them are really interested in quality and for others it's just their job. So anyway this guy, Ryan knows a bit about B-D and saw 1 box of Golden Delicious Apples come in that are B-D Demeter certified from Canada, from Otto in BC. Anyway it was only one box and they mixed them in with the other organics but it was good to see it down here. He is probably the only person aware and it was only 1 box but hey I was impressed. We don't see much commercial B-D produce here and most people have no ideal what it is. Just grist for the mill. Andy R From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Nov 3 21:08:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21761 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:08:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18987; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:03:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.voyager.net (mail1.voyager.net [209.153.128.76]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA08179 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:06:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from 169.207.206.225 (fibuli-2-97.mdm.chi.execpc.com [169.207.206.225]) by mail1.voyager.net (8.9.1/Voyager-MailX) with SMTP id TAA03888 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:08:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3820D053.298E@starnetinc.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 18:16:20 -0600 From: Donna Feigel Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Animals are Pure Gift References: <4.2.0.58.19991103062223.0097c0c0@pop-server> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2223 Phyl wrote: > Does anyone remember a book that had been suggested some time ago about the > special place animals have in the grand scheme of things? As I recall it > was authored by a native american, or had a tone similar to what one might > expect from that perspective. I recall something to the effect, "animals > are not our brothers, they are trapped in this evolutionary process along > with us..." Don't know if this is what you were thinking of, but this is the passage I was referring to in my previous post. Reading it over again, thought it was worth posting. >From Henry Beston, "The Outermost House: A Year of Life on the Great Beach of Cape Cod" " . . . a more mystical concept of animals. Remote from universal nature and living by complicated artifice, man in civilisation surveys the creature through the glass of his knowledge and sees thereby a feather magnified and the whole image in distortion. We patronize them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate for having taken form so far below ourselves. And therein do we err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with the extension of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings: they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendour and travail of the earth." -Donna From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Nov 4 00:08:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA24054 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:08:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA04779; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA23009 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:41:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d154.infoserve.net [199.175.157.154]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA09088 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:47:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000801bf266e$be04b1e0$9a9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Whoo Hoo, B-D apples in Tx Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:46:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2224 Dear Andy, Were you able to taste Martin Rothe's Olliver, BC apples? Curious how good they taste. M. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Richker To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 6:18 PM Subject: Whoo Hoo, B-D apples in Tx >I was talking to our local produce guy at W Fds here in Houston,Tx. I try >to educate them as some of them are really interested in quality and for >others it's just their job. > >So anyway this guy, Ryan knows a bit about B-D and saw 1 box of Golden >Delicious Apples come in that are B-D Demeter certified from Canada, from >Otto in BC. Anyway it was only one box and they mixed them in with the >other organics but it was good to see it down here. > >He is probably the only person aware and it was only 1 box but hey I was >impressed. We don't see much commercial B-D produce here and most people >have no ideal what it is. > >Just grist for the mill. > >Andy R > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Nov 4 01:40:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA24842 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 01:40:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA18885; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 01:35:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net (sys32.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.32]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA18089 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 01:31:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.211.141.219] (wt-d6-219.wt.net [208.211.141.219]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA00794 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:33:24 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000801bf266e$be04b1e0$9a9dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:43:26 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Andy R Subject: Re: Whoo Hoo, B-D apples in Tx Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2225 Michael Yes it was Rothe's , from Olliver. Although I am not crazy about Golden Delicious cause they usually taste like sh.. but I had to buy these and since it is still the beginning of the season i thought they might be good. Well they are good. I want to see what the brix level might be. So I plan to borrow my friends refractometer to measure the brix, I'll let you know. Anyway I would buy more and I tell everybody to try them. Cheers, andy R >Dear Andy, > > Were you able to taste Martin Rothe's Olliver, BC apples? Curious how >good they taste. >M. >-----Original Message----- >From: Andy Richker >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 6:18 PM >Subject: Whoo Hoo, B-D apples in Tx > > >>I was talking to our local produce guy at W Fds here in Houston,Tx. I try >>to educate them as some of them are really interested in quality and for >>others it's just their job. >> >>So anyway this guy, Ryan knows a bit about B-D and saw 1 box of Golden >>Delicious Apples come in that are B-D Demeter certified from Canada, from >>Otto in BC. Anyway it was only one box and they mixed them in with the >>other organics but it was good to see it down here. >> >>He is probably the only person aware and it was only 1 box but hey I was >>impressed. We don't see much commercial B-D produce here and most people >>have no ideal what it is. >> >>Just grist for the mill. >> >>Andy R >> >> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Nov 4 03:22:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA25618 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 03:22:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA22606; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 03:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp3.hawaii.rr.com (smtp3.hawaii.rr.com [204.210.97.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA22545 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 03:15:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from phyl - 24.94.79.93 by smtp3.hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1774.114.11); Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:13:52 -1000 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991103215902.022c4a40@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 22:08:38 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: Re: Animals are Pure Gift In-Reply-To: <3820D053.298E@starnetinc.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19991103062223.0097c0c0@pop-server> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_8846126==_.ALT" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2226 --=====================_8846126==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Don't know if this is what you were thinking of, but this is the >passage I was referring to in my previous post. Reading it over again, >thought it was worth posting. > > >From Henry Beston, "The Outermost House: A Year of Life on the Great >Beach of Cape Cod" >" . . . a more mystical concept of animals. Remote from universal >nature and living by complicated artifice, man in civilisation surveys >the creature through the glass of his knowledge and sees thereby a >feather magnified and the whole image in distortion. We patronize >them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate for having taken >form so far below ourselves. And therein do we err. For the animal >shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than >ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with the extension of >the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall >never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings: they are >other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, >fellow prisoners of the splendour and travail of the earth." > >-Donna Dear Donna, Thank you for posting this! That is exactly what I was rambling about, trying to remember and referring to - although I didn't remember the title, which kind of puts me off. I'm not sure I am ready to read about a year of life on cape cod. I'll try and find the book and flip through it. I am definitely interested in the passage you cite though. If he elaborates further I'm sure it would be worth while reading. I am still quite smitten with his description and certainly would appreciate to see how he takes it further, if he does. Does he? I'll also check out Earth Prayers. Thanks again. And thanks to all who expressed resonance in thought and feeling regarding this extraordinary gift of the animals on our behalf! Phyl ============================================== pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com Phyl Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. Waianae, HI 96792 808-696-1010 808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_8846126==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Don't know if this is what you were thinking of, but this is the
passage I was referring to in my previous post. Reading it over again,
thought it was worth posting.

>From Henry Beston, "The Outermost House: A Year of Life on the Great
Beach of Cape Cod"
" . . . a more mystical concept of animals. Remote from universal
nature and living by complicated artifice, man in civilisation surveys
the creature through the glass of his knowledge and sees thereby a
feather magnified and the whole image in distortion. We patronize
them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate for having taken
form so far below ourselves. And therein do we err. For the animal
shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than
ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with the extension of
the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall
never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings: they are
other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time,
fellow prisoners of the splendour and travail of the earth."

-Donna

Dear Donna,

Thank you for posting this! That is exactly what I was rambling about, trying to remember and referring to - although I didn't remember the title, which kind of puts me off. I'm not sure I am ready to read about a year of life on cape cod. I'll try and find the book and flip through it. I am definitely interested in the passage you cite though. If he elaborates further I'm sure it would be worth while reading. I am still quite smitten with his description and certainly would appreciate to see how he takes it further, if he does. Does he?

I'll also check out Earth Prayers. Thanks again. And thanks to all who expressed resonance in thought and feeling regarding this extraordinary gift of the animals on our behalf!

Phyl


==============================================
pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com

Phyl Dwyer
Kahumana Farm
86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd.
Waianae, HI 96792

808-696-1010
808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_8846126==_.ALT-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Nov 4 14:04:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04719 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 14:04:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05097; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 13:51:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05004 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 13:50:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from 204.149.164.36 (mx3-22.ilhawaii.net [204.149.164.36]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA27245; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 12:52:23 -0600 Message-ID: <3821D995.43A9@smallfarms.com> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 09:08:04 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Whoo Hoo, B-D apples in Tx References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2227 Hey Michael and Andy, Now do those tasty apples (and our other quality foods) belong at smallfarms.com so more people will have access to them? Your discussion was a great testimonial! Hey folks, the Free Listings at http://www.smallfarms.com are still available. If the free listings for your state are filled, the regular fee is a farmer friendly $29.00 PER YEAR. Can't continue to hide them apples! glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com "Michael Yes it was Rothe's , from Olliver. Although I am not crazy about Golden Delicious cause they usually taste like sh.. but I had to buy these and since it is still the beginning of the season i thought they might be good. Well they are good. I want to see what the brix level might be. So I plan to borrow my friends refractometer to measure the brix, I'll let you know. Anyway I would buy more and I tell everybody to try them. Cheers, andy R" From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Nov 4 23:48:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA14402 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:48:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02966; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:40:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net (sys32.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.32]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02910 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:39:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.211.141.219] (216-119-134-250.ipset14.wt.net [216.119.134.250]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA20896 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 22:41:22 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: lamu@pop3.wt.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000801bf266e$be04b1e0$9a9dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 22:51:49 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Andy Richker Subject: Call for all CSAs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2228 I saw this post on Sanet and thought any applicable people here would like to know like Hugh and you others. Andy R Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:04:28 -0500 From: Andy Clark Subject: (urgently) calling all CSAs Colleagues: In anticipation of national media publicity about Community Supported Agriculture (CSA), we are compiling a national listing/database of CSA farms (USA only at this time). To be available in print (by state) and on the web, we need to finalize the list by November 10. The potential to generate consumer interest in CSAs is very large. The public will be directed to a web site or a mailing address to 'find a CSA farm near you.' Any CSA not on the list will miss an opportunity to have potential shareholders find them. Although response by the public is impossible to predict, we anticipate thousands of snail-mail or web hits. I am excited by the 'teachable moments' this could generate with respect to the general public and our food system. Therefore, I am calling on all CSA farms to contact my office by November 8. Those 450 or so that have already been in touch, no need to contact us again. Please see below for the exact information we are requesting. We will not list any CSA until we have their permission to do so. I have been working with about a dozen organizations nationwide that maintain lists of CSA farms, and we have contacted all CSAs on the lists these groups have shared with me. If you maintain a list of CSA farms, please send that to me electronically. We will credit all organizations that share lists with us. If you know of CSA farms or know the farmers, please consider one of the following: 1) e-mail me (san@nal.usda.gov) with farm name and contact information; 2) call my voice mail 24 hours a day (301-504-6425) with farm name and contact information; 3) go to the web and fill out the form there (http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/csa/csaform.htm); 4) ask the CSA to e-mail or call me or send a FAX to 301-504-6409 or go to the web and submit a form (see below for information we are requesting). My apologies for the RUSH on this. I do not expect to be able to respond to replies to this message except those that include CSA information. I will be in touch later with more details. MANY THANKS for anything you can do to put me in touch with CSA farms in the USA. We have also set up a web site dedicated to CSA resources (http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/csa). Check it out and let us know if there are resources that need to be there! NOTE THAT the listing at that site was old, and has been disconnected. We expect to post the new data any day now. A note about the WE in this message. The Sustainable Agriculture Network (SAN--the outreach arm of the SARE program) and the Alternative Farming Systems Information Center (AFSIC) at the National Agricultural Library, are working with the Robyn Van En Center for CSA, with other Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (SARE) personnel and with USDA Cooperative State Research, Education and Extension (CSREES) to compile and make this national listing available in print and on the web. I've done practically nothing else in the past month. See http://www.sare.org http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/csa http://www.reeusda.gov WE ARE REQUESTING THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION FROM CSA FARMS. Fill in only what you want published. At this time, we will not publish information about the organic certification status of the CSA. CSA Listing Preferred format for e-mail reply is address format without the item descriptors (except FAX). Farm Name Operator Name Address Phone FAX e-mail URL Area/county served Permission to list? YES NO Certified Organic? YES NO Many thanks again to everyone else helping on this project! Andy Andy Clark, Ph.D. SAN Coordinator c/o AFSIC, Room 304 National Agricultural Library 10301 Baltimore Ave. Beltsville, MD 20705-2351 PH: 301-504-6425 FAX: 301-504-6409 san@nal.usda.gov http://www.sare.org From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Nov 4 23:51:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA14444 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:51:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03245; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:44:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net (sys32.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.32]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA03165 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:43:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.211.141.219] (216-119-134-250.ipset14.wt.net [216.119.134.250]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA22014 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 22:45:46 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 22:57:06 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Andy R Subject: Re: BIONEERS Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2229 Allan, are you back from the Bioneers?? How was it. Please tell us or at least me about it. Thanks, Andy From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Nov 5 07:48:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA19228 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 07:48:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA27884; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 07:44:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA27817 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 07:43:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.73] (pm3shep3-163-137.intrepid.net [209.190.163.137]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA11876 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 07:45:35 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 07:44:15 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: BIONEERS Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2230 Andy - The conference was incredibly informative and inspirational, as one has come to expect from Bioneers each year. This year it was held at a large but funky civic center in Marin County, north of San Francisco. Demeter board member, inspector and Fresno-based biodynamic viticulturist, Gina Nonini (sp?) gave a very respectable 15 minute presentation on biodynamics in a workshop on restorative agriculture. (Green Gulch Zen Center's legendary Wendy Johnson on the same panel. (Interestingly enough, while Wendy is on 'sabbatical' finishing her book on meditation in the garden, she says that the Green Gulch gardens are being managed biodynamically.) ) Incidentally, it came out at this workshop that our old BD Now! friend, Steve Moore, may be losing his farm to family difficulties. Vinnie McKinney, sometimes BD Now! member and founder/master gardener at Mo based Elixir Farm botanicals, spoke on a panel about women and herbs and was a mainstay at the SEED SAVING workshop that followed Bioneers in Occidental, CA. The seedsaving workshop AT OAEC was seminal. If you ever get out to N. Ca, be sure to tour the garden and facilities at Occidental Arts and Ecology Center (at the site of the old Farrlon Institute (source of 'The Integrated Urban House' books)) Aside from the details, the workshop emphasized how, with a little advanced planning, easy it is to start and maintain a local seedbank and how unbearably important it is that each of us stop buying seeds from outside of our bioregion and start saving seeds locally with our neighbor farmers and gardeners. (OK, it's still cool to find varities in catalogs and acclimate them later to your own bioregion.) (FYI BOTH "Ferry-Morse (?)" and Seeds of Change will have organic seed spinners in hardware stores and Walmarts this coming season!!!) I'm very interested in providing through BD Now! whatever web educational or networking resources are required to get bioregional seedsaving going among members of BD Now! Let me know what you need or think you may need! (A little help I need! I haven't been able to find a map of North American bioregions on the web. Anyone know of a good one?) Bioneeers makes tapes available for their conference workshops. If people are interested, I may have tapes of the seedsaving workshop and, possibly, the BD workshop with the legendary Hugh Lovel and Peter Proctor from last year. -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Nov 5 08:14:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19514 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:14:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA29306; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:11:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29244 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:10:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from erols.com (207-172-77-14.s14.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.77.14]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA24801; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:12:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3822D812.ADB72801@erols.com> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 08:13:54 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Call for all CSAs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2231 Thanks, Andy. Wondering how I can subscribe to SANET?? TIA, Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Nov 5 08:24:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19651 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:24:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA29867; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:20:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29556 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:15:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from erols.com (207-172-77-14.s14.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.77.14]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26552; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:17:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3822D92F.FF82A042@erols.com> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 08:18:39 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BIONEERS Conference References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2232 Allan: A lot of pioneering work in the Bioregional movement has been done by Gary Snyder (poet; member of Beat gen.; won Pulitzer for "Turtle Island" in 1975; great ecological writer) and the Bay-based org., Planet Drum. I have more info - somewhere - on Planet Drum if anyone is interested. Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Nov 5 08:51:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19993 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:51:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02254; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01883 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:39:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d142.infoserve.net [199.175.157.142]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA00114 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 05:45:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001c01bf2793$e5783780$8e9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: bio neers Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 05:42:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF2750.84AC1400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2233 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF2750.84AC1400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allan, Many thanks for posting the interesting account of the conf. M. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF2750.84AC1400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Allan,
 
  Many thanks for posting the = interesting account=20 of the conf. M.
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF2750.84AC1400-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Nov 5 11:34:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22533 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:34:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23298; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:27:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23010 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:25:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.203.153]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:27:02 +0000 Message-ID: <006e01bf27aa$bddc05a0$99cb2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: Subject: OFF: GMOs in radio soap Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:57:06 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF27A6.68F36820" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2234 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF27A6.68F36820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Non-Brit anti-GMOs might like to know that the well-respected 'serious' = soap-opera on BBC Radio 4 "The Archers", relating the daily troubles of = a Midlands farming community (and regularly used by Government = ministries, NGOs and charities etc as a means of putting out messages = mainly related to agriculture) recently covered the trashing of an = experimental plot of GM rape by a group of ecowarriors which included = the younger son of the local organic farmer. He was tracked down, = brought to trial and has just been acquitted by a jury verdict of 10:2. = Admittedly, the prosecuting lawyer was represented as a particularly = unpleasant, sneering woman. The judge's summing-up was very strong on = the legal principle that damage to property is not criminal if the = person carrying it out has a genuine belief that it could damage other = persons or property, even if that belief turns out to be incorrect. It = remains to be seen whether the landowner or the biotech company will sue = for civil damages, but my guess is that this would be seen as unwise in = PR terms. Have we yet had the result of any such real trials ? = Tony NS. "If a man begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he = will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties" (Francis Bacon) ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF27A6.68F36820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Non-Brit anti-GMOs might like to know = that the=20 well-respected 'serious' soap-opera on BBC Radio 4 "The Archers", = relating the=20 daily troubles of a Midlands farming community (and regularly used by = Government=20 ministries, NGOs and charities etc as a means of putting out messages = mainly=20 related to agriculture) recently covered the trashing of an experimental = plot of=20 GM rape by a group of ecowarriors which included the younger son of the = local=20 organic farmer.  He was tracked down, brought to trial and has just = been=20 acquitted by a jury verdict of 10:2.  Admittedly, the prosecuting = lawyer=20 was represented as a particularly unpleasant, sneering woman.  The = judge's=20 summing-up was very strong on the legal principle that damage to = property is not=20 criminal if the person carrying it out has a genuine belief that it = could damage=20 other persons or property, even if that belief turns out to be = incorrect. =20 It remains to be seen whether the landowner or the biotech company will = sue for=20 civil damages, but my guess is that this would be seen as unwise in PR=20 terms.  Have we yet had the result of any such real trials=20 ?            =         =20 Tony NS.
 
"If a man begin with certainties, he = shall end in=20 doubts;  but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall = end in=20 certainties"
(Francis = Bacon)
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF27A6.68F36820-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Nov 5 12:03:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23041 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 12:03:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26968; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:59:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26815 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:58:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.73] (pm3shep3-163-129.intrepid.net [209.190.163.129]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA31849 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 12:00:34 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3822D92F.FF82A042@erols.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 10:25:38 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: BIONEERS Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2235 >Allan: > >A lot of pioneering work in the Bioregional movement has been done by >Gary Snyder (poet; member of Beat gen.; won Pulitzer for "Turtle Island" >in 1975; great ecological writer) and the Bay-based org., Planet Drum. > >I have more info - somewhere - on Planet Drum if anyone is interested. > >Robert. Is this the guy in the Nike commercials? What does he call the bioregion that contains this portion of the Shenandoah Valley (circa Charles Town, WV)? Thanks -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Nov 5 13:22:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25126 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 13:22:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06587; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 13:17:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06403 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 13:15:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from erols.com (207-172-77-173.s173.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.77.173]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id NAA17403; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 13:17:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38231F8B.6A08561D@erols.com> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 13:18:51 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BIONEERS Conference References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2236 Don't know about the Nike commercials! I'm sort of tv-phobic. Everytime I watch network tv, I want to pull an Elvis Presley and blow the damn thing up! I'd be disgusted to find Gary doing a commercial. Peter Berg (Planet Drum), too. Will find my Planet Drum file and tell you what Peter calls this area. I'd just call it the Shenandoah Watershed; to the East is the Potomac Watershed. I believe Peter calls the Bay area the Shasta Watershed, tho' something tells me that might be farther north. R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Nov 5 17:28:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29934 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 17:28:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA15765; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 17:22:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15681 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 17:22:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 17:23:15 -0500 Message-ID: From: Kirsten Saylor To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: Call for all CSAs Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 17:23:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2237 Hellooo, SANET is offered through the Sustainable Agriculture Network. Homepage is http://www.sare.org/ The link to info about SANET is at http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail/ (But BDNow is one heck of a listserv, I may say!) Kirsten Kirsten Saylor Sustainable Agriculture Network C/O AFSIC, National Agricultural Library 10301 Baltimore Ave, room 304 Beltsville, MD 20705-2351 301/504-6173 ksaylor@nal.usda.gov www.sare.org -----Original Message----- From: Robert Farr [mailto:rbfarr@erols.com] Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 8:14 AM To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Call for all CSAs Thanks, Andy. Wondering how I can subscribe to SANET?? TIA, Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Nov 5 19:20:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01437 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 19:20:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25029; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 19:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from dns.midcoast.com (root@dns.midcoast.com [206.26.226.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24746 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 19:03:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from jpt (liberty-c-000.midcoast.com [208.153.20.100]) by dns.midcoast.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA20862 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 19:05:42 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991105184721.01a7b1b0@midcoast.com> X-Sender: stgeorge@midcoast.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 18:47:21 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "John P. Thomas and Kathleen Barrett" Subject: BD Farmer Needed for New Initiative In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2238 BIODYNAMIC FARMER NEEDED FOR A NEW INITIATIVE St. George Farm seeks an experienced biodynamic farmer who is willing to make a commitment to a new initiative. The mission of St. George Farm is to help people participate in the process of recovering their health and restoring the health of the Earth through biodynamic practices. St. George Farm promotes the availability of biodynamic food, courses of study in spiritual science, spiritual-scientific research, curative therapies, and opportunities for economic activities. We strive to create social and economic forms through which social awareness, love, healing, and cooperation can be promoted. The farmer/s will take primary responsibility for operating and further developing the farm as an integrated biodynamic farm organism. This includes the use of all the biodynamic preps and working with cosmic rhythms to raise a healthy balance of vegetables, livestock, fruit, and flowers. We are looking for a coworker who is willing to initiate and be responsible for building and maintaining social relationships with customers, farm volunteers, visiting groups of children and adults, and people staying at the farm for healing. Willingness to be supportive of the healing work being done by other coworkers and the activities of other farm based initiatives is important, as is the willingness to live and work in a cooperative relationship with other coworkers. A spiritual path of inner work compatible with 12-step recovery, anthroposophy, and/or Goethean studies is an advantage. The farmer will not be an employee of St. George Farm, rather, he/she will be free to run the farm within a community context where interdependence and cooperation are emphasized. Financial and housing arrangements are negotiable. The land, equipment, and greenhouses will be made available to the farmer. The farmer's business plan will need to meet his/her financial needs, cover the total expenses of farming, and be compatible with the farm's mission. The farm has 30+ acres of fields, 50 acres of woods, 2400 square feet of hoop house space, a 4,200 square foot Colonial home built in 1813, large barn, 2 car garage, woodworking shop, farm pond, and herb garden. The farm is embraced by woodlands on the north and west, and the fields gently slope toward the warming rays of the sun in the south and east. The house and fields sit a top a small hill overlooking the St. George River valley and the small New England village of South Montville, Maine, USA. St. George Farm is the physical location for several initiatives. People connected with the biodynamic farm, the St. George Center for Nutrition and Healing, and the St. George Farm Store form a core of activity. The Farm is a place where children and adults can contact the life giving forces of the farm organism. Colorpuncture therapy, flower remedies, and anthroposophical therapeutic speech are available. Other therapies will be available as people join the initiative. Our extensive library supports a wide variety of research. We acknowledge the fact that everyone is affected by addictive substances, addictive processes, and the consequences of other people's addictions. We offer support to those who wish to recover from their addictions and to heal the damage done by the addictive process. Through this acknowledgment and support we seek to create a social environment suitable for healing through which the process of addiction can be arrested, the pain and social dysfunction which underlies addiction can be alleviated, and a connection to our higher self and to the spiritual world can be strengthened. As a result, St. George Farm is a drug and alcohol free environment. For additional information, contact Kathleen Barrett or John Thomas at St. George Farm, RR 1 Box 4179, Freedom, Maine, 04941; Phone 207-589-4179; Fax 207-589-4079; E-mail stgeorge@midcoast.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Nov 5 23:02:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03103 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 23:02:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10060; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 22:53:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.kin.bc.ca (pop.kin.bc.ca [142.26.201.11]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09791 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 22:49:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [142.26.201.242] ([142.26.201.242] verified) by pop.kin.bc.ca (Stalker SMTP Server 1.5) with ESMTP id S.0000047112 for ; Fri, 05 Nov 1999 21:10:45 +0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <381BA78A.9409095D@ap.net> References: <001701bf2307$8ea84980$8c9dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Harvey Armstrong/Kate O'Keefe/Galen" Subject: Re: AG. & $ Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 21:10:45 +0000 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2239 > Michael, I just don't get the "problem". If the product is in demand >and profits are bountiful, then resources are easily distributed. If >profits are failing, then you go out of business and pick another path. >If people are too greedy to share the bounty, the choice to move on is >always an option. How does emancipate the wages from the work bear on >this thread of " fear of honesty in commerce?" David i/whirlderv@ap.net > >Michael Roboz wrote: > > When I worked for the Demeter Bakery, Sydnew, Australia, they had >endless discussion on how to emancipate our wages from our work. I don't >know if they ever resolved the problem. If Hamish McKay is listening, >then perhaps he can answer the question.It is a very difficult problem. M. > > Commerce, so it seems to me, always has a tinge of dishonesty to it. Businessmen are unwilling to say how much profit they make, or how much they mark stuff up over costs. It seems like there is, in the back of most business minds, the urge to 'make a killing', (rather than a living) . People who work together are seldom encouraged to share between themselves what they get paid. There may be differences in pay which the boss feels, in the interests of harmony, best kept secret - so the thinking goes. As long as there is a top-down system with workers and owners, and as long as the object is 'making money', rather than working as a group to produce something interesting, or necessary, there will be a built in conflict between wages and work. The happiest (and luckiest) people I know are those who are able to do what they want and make enough money at it to support themselves. This seems far from the bakery, but people don't work on biodynamic farms for the money! Harvey From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Nov 6 00:41:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04394 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:41:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15129; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:20:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA14960 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:16:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.77] ("port 2049"@[148.233.78.77]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FKR00J9GAHF45@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:17:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 21:17:55 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Making higher animals peppers ? In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id AAA14963 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2240 Dear Allan: Could you please post or ask JPI permision to post to the list the recommended dates for making peppers for large animals. I believe we are approaching that cosmic time. ("when Venus is on Scorpion") May I also suggest that we keep track of what we all do and info about the effectivenes of the pepers and try to make it into a BD-Now/JPI research project. I want to do moles, mice and armadillos ( I am tempted to do Iguanas as well, but somehow I can not get myself to kill my ex room mates). Last year I only burned one mouse skin, and I ended up with an infestation (probably because of a "dilution"/potency effect due to too much wood ash).This year I have about ten mice in the freezer and I intend to burn the whole animal, just as someone suggested last year. Can someone tell me if this practice is acceptable, or if I should skin the little fellows ? How about armadillos, do you burn the "shell" ? Thanks and regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Nov 6 00:50:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04450 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:50:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA16072; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:38:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15858 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:34:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.73] (pm3shep3-163-145.intrepid.net [209.190.163.145]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA12266 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:36:28 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:36:57 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Making higher animals peppers ? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2241 >Dear Allan: > >Could you please post or ask JPI permision to post to the list the >recommended dates for making peppers for large animals. I believe we are >approaching that cosmic time. ("when Venus is on Scorpion") Dear Guillermo - Permission is not a problem.Hugh prepares the quarterly recommended dates sheets because of a request that I made to him when I was an editor of BIODYNAMICS journal. However, that info normally goes first to the current BIODYNAMICS staff and then is forwarded to me at this end. The end-of-the-year Recommendations unfortunately have not arrived yet. Since I have yet to receive the Sept/October issue of BIODYNAMICS (has anyone received theirs yet?), I can only assume there is some sort of a slowdown at the BIODYNAMICS office(s). I'll fax Hugh in the a.m. and see if he'll send a copy of this valuable information for practioners to us directly. Thanks for the reminder and Good luck on your projects! -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Nov 6 09:25:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07340 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:25:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01129; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:21:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01051 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:20:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [210.55.144.102] by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991106123538.FKRX55875.mta3-rme@[210.55.144.102]> for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 01:35:38 +1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 01:35:55 +1300 Subject: Re: BD. & $ From: "Daniel Bridler" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19991106123538.FKRX55875.mta3-rme@[210.55.144.102]> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2242 -- ---------- >From: "Harvey Armstrong/Kate O'Keefe/Galen" >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Re: AG. & $ >Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 10:10 AM > Harvey wrote: > > Commerce, so it seems to me, always has a tinge of dishonesty to it. > Businessmen are unwilling to say how much profit they make, or how much > they mark stuff up over costs. It seems like there is, in the back of most > business minds, the urge to 'make a killing', (rather than a living) . > People who work together are seldom encouraged to share between themselves > what they get paid. There may be differences in pay which the boss feels, > in the interests of harmony, best kept secret - so the thinking goes. As > long as there is a top-down system with workers and owners, and as long as > the object is 'making money', rather than working as a group to produce > something interesting, or necessary, there will be a built in conflict > between wages and work. > The happiest (and luckiest) people I know are those who are able to do what > they want and make enough money at it to support themselves. > This seems far from the bakery, but people don't work on biodynamic farms > for the money! > > Harvey I agree with you, Harvey: I don't do biodynamics on my farm for the money. If it was just for the money, there are certainly lots of other things to do with less hard work involved and more scope for financial gains. Nevertheless, I need to make some money even just to make sure I can keep on doing what I love to do : growing good biodynamic food. And also to be able to pay my employees fairly. I use to work for a grower that showed a hint of interest in organics. After reading some articles I gave him about BD growers, his comment was: "Nice guys, but not one of them seems to make any money" I was annoyed by such a materialistic approach, until it occurred to me, that after all, he was the one that made sure I was getting a pay check every week! I realize today, after 10 years of trying to run my own business, that quite possibly one of my motivations all along, was to prove him wrong: That it is, or should be possible to profitably run a biodynamic market-garden. A good way also to attract the attention of interested conventional growers: "These folks (us) may have their noses in the stars, but their feet are firm on the ground." I also like to believe I can do that honestly. I don't accept the idea that commerce has to have a tinge of dishonesty to it. Commerce is what we make it. Sure it is a challenge in a competitive market-place, but it is also a great satisfaction when honesty works,is recognized and finally shared: my customers will usually tell me if I forgot to charge for an item and I tell them if they paid an invoice twice. Small things, but they make life a lot smoother. We strive to be as efficient and productive as we can, to create enough wealth to support ourselves and the people that work with us, but also to possibly create extra financial resources to be able to support others: be it a school,an artistic activity or some research. In short: business can create the possibility for intellectual and spiritual activity to prosper in freedom, away from the constraints of profit oriented thinking. In that sense, I wish I could make lots of good BDdollars!!! Daniel > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Nov 6 09:56:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07495 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:56:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02345; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:53:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d10.mx (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02287 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:52:04 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hCEN0WW8xD (4265) for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:53:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.8bf895ee.25559ae8@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:53:28 EST Subject: Re: weed solutions To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 41 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2243 David, haven't heard of uning aluminum sulfate, potenized to kill weeds. Like to know more. Can you provide some references that provide more info either on or off the net? We have plenty of weeds including Bermuda grass in the mid-atlantic. DanL In a message dated 11/3/99 6:01:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, whirlderv@ap.net writes: << Davidi, your California Weedman here friends - thanks for ALL the support. Have decided to try negotiation with the mother nature. We're borrowing some minature donkeys and staking them out at the ends of the cultivated area where they can enjoy the sweetness of the bermuda. And then we will manually remove all sunshine by covering the area with heavy cardboard for the winter. This also works super with local weeds. This covers 1/2 of the problem. For the rows, we're opting for aluminum sulfate in potency 5x, sprayed directly on the grass. This has worked for local bd wine growers but its not an overnite effect. Since shade is inimical, rather than plant cover crops, I'm going to try overplanting major leafy edibles. This will provide the shade; the donkeys and cardboard will remove the most concentrated stuff; the aluminum sulfate spray should slow it up enough that it will at least be controlled by spring and I'm preparing another field out here on the ranch in case this experiment fails. Look for good news in the spring. Merry Winter ALL. Best Regards, Davidi/whirlderv@ap.net >> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Nov 6 10:23:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07605 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 10:23:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03411; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 10:20:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03182 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 10:15:49 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp286.cy-net.net [208.21.195.95]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16355 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:17:44 -0600 Message-Id: <199911061517.JAA16355@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:44:01 -0600 Subject: SANET sub up info and Purina Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2244 This was copied from the bottom of a SANET posting. obviously, to subscribe, follow the directions backwards. Sorry I've been negligent in my BD NOW reading lately, e-mail has had to take a back seat to life in general. (Primarily, earning my keep away from the farm for awhile.) INTERESTING NEWS: I work temp for Koch Microelectronic industries, and the day after I agreed to take on the ISO reg job, the main Koch center announced they were closing their doors to this plant, also, closing the doors to Purina Mills, Inc. I'm sure you've all heard this by now, but I am always surprised at how big industry all ties into each other. Oh, yes, SANET sub stuff: (One heads up: Many folk on BD NOW and Organic Gardening List also are on SANET, so be prepared for a lot of duplicate postings, especially about the GE stuff in general.) To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 7 07:12:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA17602 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 07:12:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA11125; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 07:09:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA10969 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 07:04:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.97] (pm3shep1-163-35.intrepid.net [209.190.163.35]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA14471 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 07:06:15 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 07:07:38 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: rediscovery of old way of plant breeding Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2245 Hi, This is my first posting on this list. It is a summary of an article I found in today's Dutch Agrarian Journal. Wytze de Lange Heading: Old method of Plantbreeding rediscovered. By: Joost van Winsen Introduction: Can a plant adapt to its environment? If that appeared to be true, than it offers (huge) breedingpossibilities for organic agriculture and agriculture in poor areas. Trials at the Russian Timirasov-University show that winterwheat adapts itself to growthcircumstances and can be selected on this. Wageningen:- Sonja Temirbikova is a Russian doctor in plantbreeding and cropprotection. Since ten years she is testing winterwheat on their capacity to adapt to circumstances of growth. The research started after meeting with Jan Diek van Mansvelt from the Agricultural University Wageningen in the Netherlands. Van Mansvelt visited Russia ten years ago to see what the possibilities are for organic agriculture in Russia. In the first year of the research Temirbikova planted Dutch wheat between Russian wheat of the same variety.Ten percent of the Dutch wheat appeared to be suitable for the extreme cold circumstances in Russia. Also the second year the Dutch wheat proved resistent to the Russian frost. "A quality of which we knew nothing in the Netherlands" says van Mansvelt. This finding is in itself not new. Temirbikova: "plantbreeding in former times was based on this principle. In grainshippings there were several sisterlines which were used for selection. Nowadays, this principle is being judged as a negative phenomena. It disturbs the homogenicity. According to van Mansvelt, breeding on the basis of sisterlines was in Scandinavian countries common practice till the end of the last century. Also farmers in 'developing' countries use this principle in breeding. Knwoledge about it is not very much present. It was lost with breeders who selected this way. Breeding is for some length of time a matter of crosses and since recent times of genetic engineering. The lack of knowledge is one of the reasons why Temirbikova went on with the research. She used three varieties: the Russian Mironowskaja 808, Okapi and Rector. After ten years of research she concludes that without crossing in five to six years a new biotype can be selected from a population. "With crossing this would take twelve years". she says. Points taken into consideration were yields and tolerances, but the wheats also could be selected for diseaseresistance. Russian Ministery of Science saw enough reason to continue subsidizing the research. The research opens possibilities for organic agriculture."Farmers can take up breeding themselves and do not need to be dependant on big breeding companies. This can work cost reducing". The research is still young but promising. "The principle can also be used with potatos and vegetables" concludes Temirbikova. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 7 10:03:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18797 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 10:03:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17957; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 10:00:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17798 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:58:12 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp226.cy-net.net [208.21.195.35]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA32048 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:00:09 -0600 Message-Id: <199911071500.JAA32048@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 08:55:26 -0600 Subject: Re: OFF: rediscovery of old way of plant breeding Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2246 Can a plant adapt to it's environment? Uh, forgive me for sounding naive but I always thought that was the case! A friend gave me a Southern Summer (Black Siberian) tomato (seeds), saying they were determinant type. I grew them 3 years in a row, and each year they grew a little differently. This season, they're almost totally ind, have smaller fruit than the originals. I have never grown them close to others where they could pollinate each other, and have been careful to bag the flowers and hand pollinate the fruit I intend to save back. Ditto my Belizean habanero peppers. I brought seed back in 1972 from Belize from plants producing seed so hot... but after a few seasons of planting them in my Texas garden, they started mellowing out. To me, this is ideal, but it might not be a sale point if someone really wanted traditional habaneros. I have other incidents but these two stand out in my mind. I definitely think a plant can adapt to it's environment, and that includes producing seed that will be more likely to survive as changes occur. And, I also believe that may work opposite also. Many plants that were F1 hybrids 20 years ago will probably produce seed true to type by now. Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 7 14:54:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20967 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:54:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08833; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:51:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08517 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:46:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d162.infoserve.net [199.175.157.162]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA14367 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:53:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000e01bf2959$b5f4a300$a29dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF / Fw: GEN11-6 Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:53:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2247 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Sunday, November 07, 1999 11:39 AM Subject: GEN11-6 >The Guardian 6th Nov 99 > >Three year pause to assess effects of GM crops > >GM food: special report >Paul Brown, Environment Correspondent >Saturday November 6, 1999 > No genetically modified crops will be grown commercially in Britain until >at least the spring > of 2003, to allow time for a panel of independent scientists to assess >trial plantings and see whether they damage the biodiversity of the wider >countryside, Michael Meacher, the environment minister, said yesterday. > > The agreement to hold off on commercial planting, made jointly with the GM >industry, is a victory for the government's official advisers, English >Nature, and the environment lobby. They fear that heavy doses of >insecticide and herbicide used on the GM crops will kill all other plants >and insects, and that GM crops may cross pollinate with native plants. > >The government had originally intended to press ahead with commercial >planting without any research into the environmental effects, but the >outcry from the organic farming and green lobby caused it to think again. > >........ > >http://washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-11/06/095l-110699-idx.html > >Scientists Reminded To Report Deaths >FDA Responds to Gene Therapy Flap > >By Rick Weiss and Deborah Nelson > >Washington Post Staff Writers >Saturday, November 6, 1999; Page A15 > >The Food and Drug Administration yesterday issued a firm reminder to >doctors and pharmaceutical company researchers involved in gene therapy >studies that they are required to tell federal health officials immediately >about any deaths or other serious side effects among patients who have >received gene therapy. > >The letter came two days after The Washington Post reported that two >research teams had failed to provide such notification for six patients who >had died after receiving gene therapy in the past 19 months. The >researchers said they had reported the deaths promptly to the FDA, which >generally keeps such information secret, but not to the National Institutes >of Health, which also oversees gene therapy but reviews injury reports >publicly. > >...... > >November 1, 1999 > >BEIJING - AP World News via NewsEdge Corporation : A senior Chinese >legislator called on Friday for legislation to regulate genetically >modified foods, adding China to the list of countries that have raised >concerns about the controversial technology. > >``Whether imported or domestically produced, GM food should be regulated >before it is put into the market and on people's dinner tables,'' Wang Tao, >a member of the legislature's executive committee, was quoted as saying by >the official Xinhua News Agency. > >........ > >posted by "dan.mcguire" > >Fri, 05 Nov 1999 > >CWB urges moratorium on genetically modified crops > >WINNIPEG - Greg Arason, the president of the Canadian Wheat Board, was >cited as telling senior grain industry executives in a closed meeting last >week there should be a moratorium on the introduction of transgenic crops >until customers are more willing to accept them or they can be sifted out >of the grain handling system, adding, "In our view, no transgenic varieties >should be registered for commercial production in Canada until either they >have achieved full commercial acceptance in all of their potential markets >or until we have cost-effective technologies to segregate by variety >throughout the system. The CWB is a strong believer that when it comes to >marketing food ingredients the customer is always right, even when they >might be scientifically wrong." > >Mr. Arason's remarks are, according to this story, a significant departure >from the board's previous low-key position on the growing controversy over >genetically modified foods. Although his comments were made during a >private industry meeting called by the board and the Canada Grains Council, >the text was later released on the board's Web site. Mr. Arason was >travelling on CWB business this week and unavailable for further comment. >Yesterday, Lyle Vanclief, the federal Agriculture Minister, was cited as >saying he did not know about the call for a moratorium, adding, "I don't >wish to comment. I don't know what he said or in what context he put it." >Doug Mutch, a private-sector grain trade consultant, was cited as saying >the board is expressing concern about the public acceptability of >transgenic products and is attempting to preserve the overseas grain market >by being able to assure customers that none of Canada's wheat product is >transgenic. > >Currently, no varieties of transgenic wheat, durum or barley are available >to Canadian farmers. But industry officials estimate more than half of this >year's massive canola crop was produced by genetically modified varieties. >Monsanto Co. is working with government scientists in Winnipeg to develop >wheat that can tolerate applications of its popular herbicide Roundup. The >company says results of the research could reach the market by 2003 or 2004. > >Other companies, including AstraZeneca Group PLC, Novartis AG and AgrEvo >GmbH, are also developing genetically modified crops. Craig Evans, general >manager of biotechnology for Monsanto Canada Inc., was cited as saying he >understands why the CWB is concerned, adding, "It's not surprising, given >the importance of wheat to the Canadian economy, given that we are an >export country." > >The canola industry has been shut out of the European market for three >years, ever since the industry moved forward with nonsegregated production >of transgenic canola. But Europe was a relatively minor market for canola. >Canada's major export customers for canola, Japan, the United States and >Mexico, have accepted the technology. But in the case of cereal grains, >Canada's markets are more fragmented and many of the premium paying >customers are in countries now expressing high levels of concern. > >Over the past 10 years, Canada produced an average of 26.5 million tonnes >of wheat and durum. It exported 19.7 million tonnes to more than 70 >countries. While the tools of biotechnology, which include genetically >modified crops, offer vast potential for improving the quality and quantity >of crops Prairie farmers grow, Mr. Arason said, that must be balanced >against market realities. > >The board has been surveying its customers' views on transgenic crops and >biotechnology over the past year, he said. Many are unwilling to accept >commodities produced from transgenic varieties. Brian Hayward, chief >executive of United Grain Growers Ltd., one of the major grain-handling >companies on the Prairies, was quoted as saying, "I think it's pragmatic. I >think the CWB is probably acting in a responsible manner in wanting to talk >about these things." >========================================= >Here is a site that might be of interest. > > >Also see the address, "Marketing in an era of biotechnology", by Greg >Arason, President and CEO of the Canadian Wheat Board at > > >Here is a segment of the talk: > >Market Reality >One of the realities of current and future markets is the impending need to >segregate out GMOs, and to segregate non-GMOs too. Let me give you some >examples. According to the CEO of ConAgra, Bruce Rohde, ConAgra began >working with corn growers this summer to try to segregate GMO corn. > >He went on to say "If you don't segregate it, you can't market to get the >cost-benefit out of it" ADM has established a process to segregate corn >varieties that are not registered for sale in the EU. Honda Corporation is >setting up a facility in the US to segregate non GM soybeans. > >The Ontario soybean industry is segregating non-transgenic beans to meet >several different market opportunities. The Canada Grain Commission is >assisting the industry in this process. Itochu Corporation has instructed >Quality Trading Inc of Illinois to prepare to handle only non-transgenic >crops. > >In turn Quality Trading is instructing their country elevators to begin >segregating non-transgenic crops. Kanot Soybean Wholesale Federation of >Kawaquchi, Japan is purchasing only GMO-free soybeans. Warburton's bakery >in the UK has indicated clearly to the CWB, and, I am sure to those with >whom they work here in Canada, that they will expect the Canadian system to >deliver to them wheat that is not transgenic. > >The way the market is reacting to transgenic crops as food ingredients, >there is little doubt that we will have to segregate non-GMO wheat and >barley varieties for some customers. The challenge is to have a system in >place to do this, well before they are introduced. > >Hopefully through pro-active marketing we will be able to limit the need >for zero-tolerance IP programs. Even with the very aggressive, pro-active >marketing program which the CWB is setting out at this time, there will >likely be those customers who will most likely not accept transgenic >cereals when the first varieties are coming up for registration. > >A couple of significant concerns that we have are characterized by the >following reactions: Kirin and Sapporoto Breweries are removing the >transgenic maize in their beer. Kirin says, "We cannot ignore consumer >doubts about the safety of GM crops" > >The Japan Tofu Association has decided to move to all non-GM soybeans for >their tofu production. Nippon Flour Mills is looking at replacing the >cornstarch that they are using with wheat starch in an effort to get away >from transgenic ingredients in their food products. This is good news for >wheat only if we can assure the Japanese that we can deliver non-transgenic >wheat to their market. > > In all likelihood Japan will be unwilling to approve a transgenic wheat >for importation. Every one of our Italian customers said they would not >import transgenic durum until there was clear consumer acceptance. They >estimated this to happen sometime towards 2008. > >If the only major premium market that is left to sell transgenic wheat into >is the United States, will that be enough? Even if we can sell them wheat >the indications are that the malting industry will not accept transgenic >malting barley anywhere except China. As an industry we need to discuss who >is responsible for what and who is going to pay the bill for failed systems >that do not deliver what the customer has ordered. > > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 7 14:54:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20968 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:54:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08795; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:51:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08452 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:46:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d162.infoserve.net [199.175.157.162]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA14331; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:52:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000901bf2959$9be57e80$a29dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: "Phyl Dwyer" Cc: Subject: Man & animal/Poppelbaum Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:51:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF2916.76F12E00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2248 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF2916.76F12E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Phyl, Some excerpt from "Man and Animal" by Herbert Poppelbaum, an anthr. = zoologist. This book came out in 1960 before many of the newly found = fossils had been found in Africa and in icefields that are older than = the oldest found at the time this book was written. P. 60 The Atlantean Time Not until the 4th epoch of the earth's development, the Atlantean, = does the new being arrive. It is in this age, after long preparation, = that the peculiar task of earth is accomplished: the human Ego can now = take posssession of the erect body. It has laboured long upon the = physical organisation untilthe latter can become an Ego-bearer. = .....But, a group of creatures has hastened to descend before him, to = attain solidity before him: these are the great land quadrupeds, which = reach their prime in the Atlantean epoch, corr. to the Tertiary era. The Great Quadrupeds Before reaching the stage of bodily maturity necessary for the = receptionof an Ego, they have separated from thehuman stock, and = subordinated themselves entirely to the earth forces. They therefore = develop further only in one-sided directions. The erect posture which = they originally shared is lost to them. he goes on .... Their remains are found in the early Tertiary era (forerunner of the = hoofed animals), credontia (forerunners of the carnivora), etc. From = these were developed the higher animals, which are still to-day man's = neighbours, and which have become still more dissimilar to the human = type than were those early forms, which both in their limbs and their = dentition were more primitive, ie, in reality, more human. .....all the other forms of early manbelong toside branches. I will try to recreate the diagram: MAN in Atlantean Epoch____________________Physical Evolution ascending (from the above line are all these offshoots: in order from lowest to = highest) Minerals, Plants, invertebrates, Fishes, Amphibians, reptiles, Birds, = Lower Mammals, Quadruped Mammals. Image lines connecting with the line above to each of those categories. I don't have a scanner, so this will have to suffice, I hope! Later in the book under subtitles of Animal Form, Animal Play, Animal = Voices , does he compare the animals of today and humans in those = aspects. (approx. p., 148) P. 153. To become human means to set the seal of the spirit pf tje Ego = upon all the earthly human life-that "I" which of its own free = choice-and out of its wider survey-interweaves itself in the destiny of = the earth. To beome human means to bear the destiny of the earth = onwards to the future stages of its existence. To be man is to know the = animals andal the creatures on the earth; it is to recognise man's = responsibility towards those beings, once of the same order as himself, = but now obliged to live beside him in an incompleteness which never = ceases calling to man-warninghim to make himself worth of the trust = reposed in him. Michael ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF2916.76F12E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Phyl,
 
 Some excerpt from = "Man and=20 Animal" by Herbert Poppelbaum, an anthr. zoologist.  This book = came=20 out in 1960 before many of the newly found fossils had been found in = Africa and=20 in icefields that are older than the oldest found at the time this book = was=20 written.
  P. = 60
The Atlantean = Time
 
  Not until the 4th epoch = of the=20 earth's development, the Atlantean, does the new being arrive. It is in = this=20 age, after long preparation, that the peculiar task of earth is = accomplished:=20 the human Ego can now take posssession of the erect body.  It has = laboured=20 long upon the physical organisation untilthe latter can become an=20 Ego-bearer.  .....But, a group of creatures has hastened to descend = before=20 him, to attain solidity before him: these are the great land quadrupeds, = which=20 reach their prime in the Atlantean epoch, corr. to the Tertiary=20 era.
 
 The Great=20 Quadrupeds
 
   Before reaching the stage of bodily = maturity=20 necessary for the receptionof an Ego, they have separated from thehuman = stock,=20 and subordinated themselves entirely to the earth forces.  They = therefore=20 develop further only in one-sided directions.  The erect = posture =20 which they originally shared is lost to them.
 
he goes on  ....
 
Their remains are found in the early Tertiary era = (forerunner=20 of the hoofed animals), credontia (forerunners of the carnivora), = etc. =20 >From these were developed the higher animals, which are still to-day = man's=20 neighbours, and which have become still more dissimilar to the human = type than=20 were those early forms, which both in their limbs and their dentition = were more=20 primitive, ie, in reality, more human.
 
.....all the other forms of early manbelong toside=20 branches.
 
I will try to recreate the diagram:
 
MAN in Atlantean Epoch____________________Physical = Evolution=20 ascending
(from the above line are all these offshoots: in = order from=20 lowest to highest)
 
Minerals, Plants, invertebrates, Fishes, Amphibians, = reptiles,=20 Birds, Lower Mammals, Quadruped Mammals.
 
Image lines connecting with the line above to each = of those=20 categories.
I don't have a scanner, so this will have to = suffice, I=20 hope!
 
Later in the book under subtitles of Animal Form, = Animal Play,=20 Animal Voices , does he compare the animals of today and humans in those = aspects.  (approx. p., 148)
 
P. 153. To become human means to set the seal of the = spirit pf=20 tje Ego upon all the earthly human life-that "I" which of its = own free=20 choice-and out of its wider survey-interweaves itself in the destiny of = the=20 earth.  To beome human means to bear the destiny of the earth = onwards to=20 the future stages of its existence.  To be man is to know the = animals andal=20 the creatures on the earth; it is to recognise man's responsibility = towards=20 those beings, once of the same order as himself, but now obliged to live = beside=20 him in an incompleteness which never ceases calling to man-warninghim to = make=20 himself worth of the trust reposed in him.
 
Michael
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF2916.76F12E00-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 7 15:06:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA21050 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:06:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09594; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:03:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09247 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:58:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.97] (pm3shep1-163-21.intrepid.net [209.190.163.21]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA07298 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:00:51 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199911071500.JAA32048@portal.txcyber.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:00:48 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: OFF: rediscovery of old way of plant breeding Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2249 >Ditto my Belizean habanero peppers. I brought seed back in 1972 >from Belize from plants producing seed so hot... but after a few >seasons of planting them in my Texas garden, they started >mellowing out. To me, this is ideal, but it might not be a sale point >if someone really wanted traditional habaneros. You weren't growing ANY other peppers during this period? In my experience, peppers are strange. I swear I've had sweet peppers pick up HEAT simply by being planted near HOT peppers, although this is supposedly impossible w/o x-pollination. Robert can probably explain this better than I, but I have heard that environment and culture are v. important to the quality of HEAT in habs. Incidentally, Gabriel of SoC says that he likes to eat a full fresh hab with each meal. When I told him that the slightest sliver of my habs raised blisters on my lips (etc (!)), he looked at me in a rather condescending fashion. "You work your way up," he said. :-) -Allan igg@Igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 7 16:33:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21728 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:33:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA16100; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:30:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA15909 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:28:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.41] (r-66.41.alltel.net [166.102.66.41]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id PAA13652 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:30:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199911071500.JAA32048@portal.txcyber.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:30:37 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF: rediscovery of old way of plant breeding Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2250 Dear Martha, Yes, the geneticists who think natural selection (random mutations and survival of the fittest) is how organisms are modified are all wet. Luther Burbank used to say something similar. I save most of my own seeds and have had a number of new varieties arise. By breeding for certain characteristics I've more or less stabilized the breeds. But there is enormous potential for diversity in just a few generations of saving your own seeds. Otherwise how does one explain that European settlers came here with old world seeds and in a couple hundred years hundreds and hundreds of unique, adapted, hardy varieties arose. Natural selection? Hardly. Best, Hugh Lovel >Can a plant adapt to it's environment? Uh, forgive me for sounding >naive but I always thought that was the case! A friend gave me a >Southern Summer (Black Siberian) tomato (seeds), saying they >were determinant type. I grew them 3 years in a row, and each >year they grew a little differently. This season, they're almost >totally ind, have smaller fruit than the originals. I have never grown >them close to others where they could pollinate each other, and >have been careful to bag the flowers and hand pollinate the fruit I >intend to save back. >Ditto my Belizean habanero peppers. I brought seed back in 1972 >from Belize from plants producing seed so hot... but after a few >seasons of planting them in my Texas garden, they started >mellowing out. To me, this is ideal, but it might not be a sale point >if someone really wanted traditional habaneros. >I have other incidents but these two stand out in my mind. I >definitely think a plant can adapt to it's environment, and that >includes producing seed that will be more likely to survive as >changes occur. >And, I also believe that may work opposite also. Many plants that >were F1 hybrids 20 years ago will probably produce seed true to >type by now. >Martha, (Texas) >http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html >See TexCat Web page: >http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 7 23:41:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA25001 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 23:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA19313; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 23:38:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19001 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 23:33:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.119] (r-67.119.alltel.net [166.102.67.119]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id WAA00899 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:35:54 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <381A97DF.F47@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 23:36:31 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD & $ Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2251 Dear Guillermo, I'm not the one to cite chapter and verse. I got the Steiner quote from a Keely Symposium brochure I received back in '94. I no longer have that brochure, but I do know that Steiner looked rather extensively into John E. W. Keely's work on sympathetic vibratory physics. His experiments, so far as I know, have not been published as the archivists at Dornach have considered them dangerous and ahead of their time. There are some allusions to this work, however, in Steiner's mystery plays. Best I can do for now, sorry. Regards, Hugh >>I want to point to one thing, though. In my book, page 30, where I define >>sympathetic vibratory physics I quote Rudolf Steiner. "The famous >>technology of our days will come to its end soon because she will in a >>certain way wind up herself. The following phenomenon will then appear: man >>will achieve the faculty to employ the fine vibrations fo his ethereal body >>to impulsate mechanical devices. The individual will be able to transmit >>his own vibrations to the machine, and only he will be able to set the >>machine in motion by the vibrations generated by himself. The men who are >>now practical technicians will soon discover they are standing before a >>complete change as to what one calls practical, when man will be involved >>with his WILL in the objective FEELING of the world." > > >Hi Hugh: > >I friend of mine; Oscar Bon, whom I believe you meet at the "radionics" >conference this year asked me if Steiner ever mentioned radionics in his >works. > >The above quote seems to me a step in that direction, can you please give >me the reference. I love your book, it is full of usefull info and it is >fun and easy to read, but, as a pitfall, you do not include references. > >Thanks and regards > > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 7 23:44:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA25055 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 23:44:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA19586; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 23:41:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19508 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 23:41:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.119] (r-67.119.alltel.net [166.102.67.119]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id WAA08891; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:43:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <00cd01bf25b7$7ccfcfa0$980e1ed0@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 23:43:47 -0500 To: majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu, bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Slightly OFF: Fed Plans Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2252 >> Here are two messages I received today concerning potential privacy >>issues that I thought might be of concern to Greens. I have written an >>introduction to the second message. ----- Original Message ----- From: >>Sam Bouman To: sampurna@transport.com >>Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 11:02 PM Subject: Tracking technology >>embedded in U.S. currency >> From http://www.y2knewswire.com/19991028.asp: Fed V.P. >>Wants Tracking Technology Embedded in U.S. Currency >> >> >>A Senior Vice President of the Federal Reserve Bank of >>Richmond has now proposed that Americans be penalized for >>carrying cash, that tracking information be recorded on >>every dollar, and that perhaps the Fed should prevent Americans >>from withdrawing cash altogether. Banker Paranoia has reached new >>heights... >>October 28, 1999 >> >> >> >>Y2K watchers knew this was coming: the attempt at making cash illegal. >>Now the Federal Reserve has taken the first step towards that Police >>State policy by suggesting that U.S. currency should include >>tracking information that would record how long someone has been >>holding a particular Federal Reserve Note (dollar bill). According >>to the suggestion by >>Marvin Goodfriend, >>a Senior Vice President at the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond, the >>longer someone holds currency, the less it will be worth. In other words, >>there would be a tax on holding currency. >> >> >> >>Y2K Newswire leaned of this through Declan McCullagh, author of the WIRED >>News story covering the same topic. McCullagh, a reporter who thrives >>on privacy issues, nailed the Fed on this story. In it, he quotes >>Goodfriend saying, "The magnetic strip could visibly record when a >>bill was last withdrawn from the banking system. A carry tax could be >>deducted from each bill upon deposit according to how long the bill was >>in circulation..." >> >> >> >>The idea behind the paranoid suggestion? This would deter hoarding >>of currency. >> >> >> >>CONSPIRACY THEORY? GUESS AGAIN... >>Right on time! As Y2K Newswire predicted fourteen months ago, >>bankers are now pumping up the "hoarding" phrase and working to >>outlaw cash entirely. The Y2K Deniers and Hecklers recently called >>this a "conspiracy theory." Well now it's a Federal Reserve >>theory, and your own personal barcode probably isn't far behind. >>You can see the Fed argument now: "Why bother with cash? Why not >>just brand all the cattle... er, we mean, people, with a financial >>ID barcode?" >> >> >> >>See what happens when a nation abandons its power to coin money? With >>the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, the U.S. government turned over the >>power to create currency to a private company, not even owned by >>Americans; also not owned by the federal government; one that doesn't pay >>taxes and answers to no one: the Federal Reserve. >> >> >> >>Perhaps this is the kind of thing President Woodrow Wilson was >>referring to when he said, after signing the Federal Reserve Act, "I >>am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great >>industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of >>credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our >>activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the >>worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated >>Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free >>opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the >>majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small >>group of dominant men." >> >> >> >>Or perhaps this was what Thomas Jefferson was talking about when he >>said, well before the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, "If the American >>people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, >>first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the >>people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on >>the continent their fathers conquered.... The issuing power should >>be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it >>properly belongs." >> >> >> >>Author Sheldon Emry, in a recommended-reading essay titled, "Billions for >>the Bankers, Debts for the People," explains both the historical and >>present-day context of the Federal Reserve system. >> >> >> >>WHO OPPOSES THE CURRENCY TRACKING SCHEME? >>Naturally, Congressman Ron Paul (R-Texas), a Libertarian at heart, >>sharply opposes this Federal Reserve scheme. The WIRED News story >>quotes him as saying, "The whole idea is preposterous. The notion >>that we're going to tax somebody because they decide to be frugal >>and hold a couple of dollars is economic planning at its worst..." >> >> >> >> >>Certainly, many Americans will oppose the idea, too, but a far greater >>number will nod accordingly, and with glazed eyes and a zombie-like >>voice, they will say, "Yes, master. Yes, master. The currency >>tracking is a good idea, master." >> >> >> >>AN EVEN MORE PARANOID IDEA >>Goodfriend, who has obviously been given the wrong last name, also >>suggests that banks might disallow currency withdrawals >>altogether! He says, "Suspending the payment of currency for >>deposits would avoid the cost of imposing a carry tax on >>currency..." >> >> >> >>Read that carefully: "suspending the payment of currency for deposits" >>is Fed-speak for, "making cash withdrawals illegal." >> >> >> >>THE BIG PICTURE >>More astounding than the suggestion by itself is the fact that >>Federal Reserve officials are making this suggestion. Put another >>way, somebody at the Fed actually thought this was a good enough >>idea that they should make a presentation about it. Somebody is >>seriously backing this cash-tracking scheme. >> >> >> >>These people, of course, have lost all touch with any idea of personal >>freedom and individual rights. This is the scary part. Lacking these >>basic values, it's very easy for them to up the ante by suggesting >>cash be outlawed altogether. They'll say they are "fighting >>crime," of course, which will create public support for the >>measure. Americans, it seems, are willing to give up any measure >>of freedom when the phrase, "fighting crime," is invoked. They >>think they are giving up a little bit a freedom for a little bit >>of security when, in fact, as Jefferson once concluded, they will >>end up with neither. >> >> >> >>In a few short years, we could find ourselves in a cashless society, >>where all financial transactions are tracked, monitored and >>profiled. It's no longer a conspiracy theory. There are no black >>helicopters hovering over this editor. The plan is now evident; it's laid >>out right in front of us. Cash must go. >> >> >> >>Will most Americans care about this? No. >> >> >> >>Will they do anything to stop it? No. >> >> >> >>Will Y2K change the situation? Probably not. >> >> >> >>Are we stuck with this? Yep. That is, as long as we keep electing the >>same parties and the same families to positions of power. Until we >>have a reformist President who can educate the American people >>about freedom, nothing will change. And if you think voting Bush into >>office will change anything, you're kidding yourself. Next November, >>vote for reform. >> >># End # >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I received the email below today for a global currency bank that will use >>some of it's money to help sustain the environment. At first glance to a >>lot of people will seem like a great thing. Unfortunately, most of them >>will not look deep enough to see what is really going on here. On this page >>http://www.globalresourcebank.com/grb/docs/prospectus.html about halfway >>down is the following info: >> >>Phase 2 >> >>Recently the Global Resource Foundation (GRF) met to discuss international >>support for the GRB. They held the meeting at the Stockholm offices of >>Scarptor. Attending was Rickard Lundgren, Scarptor's Chair; Thomas >>Berghemmer - Unix Programmer - >>thomas@scarptor.se; Mats Brunell - >>Information Technology Consultant, mats@brunell.se; Bo Toresson - Political >>Consultant, btore@algonet.se; Lennart Bylund - >>GRF Founder, InfoCenter >>Scandinavia AB and John Pozzi, Acting GRB Manager. They also discussed >>biometric identification: 1, 2, 3, support for education, wireless GRB >>communicators, and GRB managers meeting with leaders of NGOs, the UN, the >>telecommunication and financial service industries and Central Banks. >> >>The numbers following the information about biometric information are links >>to websites on biometrics: >>1 -- http://www.senseme.com/Biometrics/biometrics.html >>2 -- http://www.sensar.com/contacts/contacts.stm Sensar, whose product >>is a >>Sensar Iris Identification System. See >>http://www.sensar.com/products/products.stm >>3 -- http://www.bioid.com/biometrics/bio_tech.html BioId whose product is >>voice, facial, and lip movement identification. >> >>I think it's critical to make people aware of what these people are really >>trying to do, so they don't get conned into buying into this misleading >>scheme. >> >> >>Juliet Easton >>Homepage: http://www.negia.net/~juliet77 >>Original Message ----- >>From: Ole Fjord Larsen >>Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 10:14 AM >>Subject: [passem] Sensational Scheme for Saving the Planet ! >> >>1999.11.02 - Tuesday 2 November - 1 month 28 days to 2000.01.01 >> >>GLOBAL RESOURCE BANK >> >>The Global Resource Bank is the clearinghouse for a sustainable global >>economy. The Bank's shareholders, who are all the people in the world, >>direct the Bank. >> >>The resources of the Bank is Earth outside national jurisdiction. >>The ecosystem product of this resource is owned collectively by the >>shareholders. >> >>Based on the Gross Ecosystem Product of these resources the shareholders >>create an electronic GRB credit. >> >>This credit is the basic monetary unit of the GRB. >> >>It measures the economic value of ecosystem product and is a >>universal standard of value and global medium of exchange. >> >>GRB credit inherently promotes environmental preservation and increases >>natural resources. >> >>Contrary to this, the present money is based on Gross National Product >>which licenses usury, demands consumerism and ecocide and decreases >>Earth's capacity to support life. >> >>The GRB earns income from an account maintenance charge adjusted to the >>ecological footprint of the individual account. >> >>The circulation of the GRB Credit depends on increasing registration of >>both shareholder and commercial accounts and the decisions of >>communities to introduce the GRB to their members. >> >>The GRB is open. To test the Bank's real time clearinghouse, registered >>shareholders are transferring nonnegotiable credits at www.grb.net. >> >>You will find fifteen thousand credits in your trial account when you >>register. >> >>You can register any number of accounts at the same e-mail address. To >>see how the Bank works, transfer some credits between the accounts of >>family and friends. >> >>You can also register your business, government- and >>NonGovernment Organisations as Commercial Accounts. >> >>We look forward to your participation. >> >>Ole Fjord Larsen >>Content-Type: application/octet-stream >>Content-ID: <00b901bf25b7$7b9a0ec0$980e1ed0@default> >> >>Attachment converted: Hercules:Untitled 2 (????/----) (00034C57) >>Content-Type: application/octet-stream >>Content-ID: <00bb01bf25b7$7b9a0ec0$980e1ed0@default> >> >>Attachment converted: Hercules:Untitled 3 (????/----) (00034C58) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 7 23:53:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA25129 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 23:53:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA20121; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 23:50:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19967 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 23:48:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.119] (r-67.119.alltel.net [166.102.67.119]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id WAA16119 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:50:05 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 23:50:43 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF: rediscovery of old way of plant breeding Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2253 Dear Allan, I too have had sweet bell peppers (from reliable sources known to have been breed exclusively sweet) come out hot because they were planted next to hot peppers. I was told by someone more experienced than I that, "Oh, yes. You have to watch out for that." So who says that is supposed to be impossible? Must have been a theorist, not a doer. Best, Hugh Lovel > > >Hi, >This is my first posting on this list. It is a summary of an article I >found in today's Dutch Agrarian Journal. >Wytze de Lange > >Heading: >Old method of Plantbreeding rediscovered. >By: Joost van Winsen >Introduction: >Can a plant adapt to its environment? If that appeared to be true, than >it offers (huge) breedingpossibilities for organic agriculture and >agriculture in poor areas. Trials at the Russian Timirasov-University >show that winterwheat adapts itself to growthcircumstances and can be >selected on this. > >Wageningen:- >Sonja Temirbikova is a Russian doctor in plantbreeding and >cropprotection. Since ten years she is testing winterwheat on their >capacity to adapt to circumstances of growth. The research started after >meeting with Jan Diek van Mansvelt from the Agricultural University >Wageningen in the Netherlands. Van Mansvelt visited Russia ten years ago >to see what the possibilities are for organic agriculture in Russia. In >the first year of the research Temirbikova planted Dutch wheat between >Russian wheat of the same variety.Ten percent of the Dutch wheat >appeared to be suitable for the extreme cold circumstances in Russia. >Also the second year the Dutch wheat proved resistent to the Russian >frost. "A quality of which we knew nothing in the Netherlands" says van >Mansvelt. This finding is in itself not new. Temirbikova: "plantbreeding >in former times was based on this principle. In grainshippings there >were several sisterlines which were used for selection. Nowadays, this >principle is being judged as a negative phenomena. It disturbs the >homogenicity. >According to van Mansvelt, breeding on the basis of sisterlines was in >Scandinavian countries common practice till the end of the last century. >Also farmers in 'developing' countries use this principle in breeding. >Knwoledge about it is not very much present. It was lost with breeders >who selected this way. Breeding is for some length of time a matter of >crosses and since recent times of genetic engineering. >The lack of knowledge is one of the reasons why Temirbikova went on with >the research. She used three varieties: the Russian Mironowskaja 808, >Okapi and Rector. After ten years of research she concludes that without >crossing in five to six years a new biotype can be selected from a >population. "With crossing this would take twelve years". she says. >Points taken into consideration were yields and tolerances, but the >wheats also could be selected for diseaseresistance. Russian Ministery >of Science saw enough reason to continue subsidizing the research. The >research opens possibilities for organic agriculture."Farmers can take >up breeding themselves and do not need to be dependant on big breeding >companies. This can work cost reducing". The research is still young but >promising. "The principle can also be used with potatos and vegetables" >concludes Temirbikova. > > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 9 12:39:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22240 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:39:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08697; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:35:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06412 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:24:41 -0500 (EST) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hREKa02028 (4425) for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:26:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.cb23ba05.2559b330@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:26:08 EST Subject: Re: AG. & $ To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2254 Why is emancipating wages from work so difficult? It is an inner orientation. Either you work because you love doing something, and in return you receive support for your living needs, or you work for money. The money comes from the same place, it is innocent. Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 9 13:08:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22752 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:08:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15181; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:05:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14948 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:04:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.130] (r-67.169.alltel.net [166.102.67.169]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id MAA22275 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:06:18 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: uai@alltel.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0.cb23ba05.2559b330@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:07:02 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: AG. & $ Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2255 >Why is emancipating wages from work so difficult? It is an inner orientation. >Either you work because you love doing something, and in return you receive >support for your living needs, or you work for money. The money comes from >the same place, it is innocent. >Christine Quite right, Christine. It has long seemed to me that life is too short to do things one at a time when one can combine several functions at once. Thus it makes sense (at least to me) to earn money while I'm doing what I am really psyched about doing. Wheee! To earn money doing something I don't really want to do so that I can turn around and use the money to do something I do want to do seems incredibly inefficient. Yet so many do this. Seems really wierd to me, but what do I know? Regards, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 9 15:06:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25935 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:06:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01043; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:03:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17982 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:23:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d147.infoserve.net [199.175.157.147]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA12830 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:30:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000801bf2ae0$4f1e7420$939dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: AG. & $ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:29:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2256 Well,Christine, I was there when they tried to 3-fold this company in a sea of capitalism. I'm not sure it really worked. If it so easy, then, why endless discussions on this subject for over a year? They studied, they discussed, but, nothing changed while I was there. As I said before, their attitude was to get the wages as low as possible for as much work as possible. That was my experience. I think the Camphill system comes closest to the ideal as there is a common purpose. You see, at that Bakery, we did pay rent, paid for our own food. What if I, who was a visitor to Australia wanted to travel a bit? I couldn't have done it unless I starved myself, which I did. Unless you are in that situtation, I don't think you really understand. The ideal and reality can be very different. M. -----Original Message----- From: Lilipoh@aol.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 9:46 AM Subject: Re: AG. & $ >Why is emancipating wages from work so difficult? It is an inner orientation. >Either you work because you love doing something, and in return you receive >support for your living needs, or you work for money. The money comes from >the same place, it is innocent. >Christine > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 9 15:06:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25940 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:06:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01101; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:03:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18167 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:25:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d147.infoserve.net [199.175.157.147]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA12952 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:31:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000f01bf2ae0$92c220a0$939dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: AG. & $ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:31:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2257 I think there are different situtations. Hugh runs his farm and has control over the money flow, material flow, how he treats his co-workers, etc. I was just an employee of a company that "employed" around 50 people at the time. M. -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Lovel To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 10:15 AM Subject: Re: AG. & $ >>Why is emancipating wages from work so difficult? It is an inner orientation. >>Either you work because you love doing something, and in return you receive >>support for your living needs, or you work for money. The money comes from >>the same place, it is innocent. >>Christine > >Quite right, Christine. > >It has long seemed to me that life is too short to do things one at a time >when one can combine several functions at once. Thus it makes sense (at >least to me) to earn money while I'm doing what I am really psyched about >doing. Wheee! > >To earn money doing something I don't really want to do so that I can turn >around and use the money to do something I do want to do seems incredibly >inefficient. Yet so many do this. Seems really wierd to me, but what do I >know? > >Regards, >Hugh Lovel > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 9 16:02:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA28773 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:02:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08952; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:59:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA08851 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:58:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.14.120]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:00:31 +0000 Message-ID: <003f01bf2a0a$ec198c00$780e2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: <00cd01bf25b7$7ccfcfa0$980e1ed0@default> Subject: Re: Slightly OFF: Fed Plans Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:43:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2258 Hugh - Of course, I read the entire posting on currency tracking and the possible abolition of cash with a huge measure of disbelief, but one thing I would strongly disagree with: that Americans will do anything if told that it will reduce crime. From where I stand (on the other side of the Atlantic) it appears that most will, under no circumstances, give up their 'right' to bear arms! Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 9 16:16:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29014 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11345; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:13:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10640 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:10:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.014CC726@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:11:52 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 9 Nov 99 16:12:05 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 9 Nov 99 16:12:02 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:11:54 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: AG. & $ Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000801bf2ae0$4f1e7420$939dafc7@333> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2259 It seems to me that Hugh and Michael are talking about two very different scenarios. When Hugh says, why would you want to work for pay in something you don't love, I think we can all agree. He might also say that it is easy for him to separate his motivation to work for the pure joy and satisfaction of it separate from the money issue, but then again, he works for himself. Michael is talking about the situation where the pot is split among several or many workers. That's when it gets complicated. Not everyone works with the same tenacity, speed or quality, and we don't all hold the same values. If pay is divorced from the work, then what is the system to be used to determine what is the right distribution of proceeds to each worker? First, we might not all agree on the percent of proceeds to be put back into the business vs getting paid out to workers. Next, how will we agree that you deserve more or less than person X? Some people might say, well, it should depend on how many children you have. But then those without children say, why should we be penalized for have no or fewer children? How do you distinguish between "needs" and "wants"? When you're a one woman or one man show, this is just up to you. When you work in a cooperative agreement, it gets very complicated. I think that it only seems simple when you assume that others will and do have the same priorities and values as you. No matter how enlightened the community, this is hard for me to imagine. I think this was Michael's point too. The suppy and demand model may have tons of faults, but the alternatives so far seem worse. Anita > Well,Christine, I was there when they tried to 3-fold this company in a sea > of capitalism. I'm not sure it really worked. If it so easy, then, why > endless discussions on this subject for over a year? They studied, they > discussed, but, nothing changed while I was there. As I said before, their > attitude was to get the wages as low as possible for as much work as > possible. That was my experience. I think the Camphill system comes closest > to the ideal as there is a common purpose. You see, at that Bakery, we did > pay rent, paid for our own food. What if I, who was a visitor to Australia > wanted to travel a bit? I couldn't have done it unless I starved myself, > which I did. Unless you are in that situtation, I don't think you really > understand. The ideal and reality can be very different. M. > -----Original Message----- > From: Lilipoh@aol.com > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 9:46 AM > Subject: Re: AG. & $ > > > >Why is emancipating wages from work so difficult? It is an inner > orientation. > >Either you work because you love doing something, and in return you receive > >support for your living needs, or you work for money. The money comes from > >the same place, it is innocent. > >Christine > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 9 17:21:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00112 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:21:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA20084; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:18:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19540 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:13:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.119] (pm3shep2-163-102.intrepid.net [209.190.163.102]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA24827 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:15:24 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:17:01 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Safe Seed Initiative Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2260 Anyone heard of this (or something similar)? It's a statement signed by a seed company stating that they will neither buy nor resell GE products. Cook's Garden has signed this (whatever its called) Johnny's may not have, they wouldn't discuss it when I called this afternoon. Supposedly the 'safe seed' statement will appear in 'safe' catalogs this season. What do you know about it? Thanks -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 9 17:34:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00305 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:34:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA21833; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:31:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21181 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:26:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from erols.com (216-164-223-20.s20.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com [216.164.223.20]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA27843; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:28:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3828A04D.4EBC32DE@erols.com> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 17:29:33 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Safe Seed Initiative References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2261 ohmiGod - safe seed????? think of the advertising campaign!! R. p.s. - is the the hortirosexual thing vinnie was talking about?? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 9 17:34:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00338 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:34:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA21894; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:31:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx.webound.com (root@pop.webound.com [216.90.136.28]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21719 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:30:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [216.90.139.134] (gvl139-70.dial.webound.com [216.90.139.70]) by mx.webound.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/jsb) with ESMTP id QAA79608 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:32:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:32:29 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: genegerue@pop.webound.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <381A97DF.F47@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Gene GeRue Subject: Re: BD & $ Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2262 Ego, greed, laziness, selfishness, poor self-image and other human traits disallow a perfect work-compensation environment. Employee-owned companies may be the best we can do until we attain a higher level of enlightenment. The performance of such companies is impressive. See http://www.fed.org/leading_companies/may98/trends.html for an article titled: Employee-Owned Companies Continue to Significantly Outperform the Market A report on worker-owned firms is at http://www.ncesa.org/html/workown.html The first paragraph reads: ArialOne of the most promising trends in the complex of corporate restructurings is the emergence of employee participation in the ownership of capital within their own companies. More than 15 million employees working in over 16,000 companies own around 8 percent of all corporate equity. By far the largest component of this growing movement is the Employee Stock Ownership Plan (ESOP) of which there are over 11,000 across the country. About 1,900 companies -- among them some of the largest in the nation -- are now majority worker-owned. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 9 18:48:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01288 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:48:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00117; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:45:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29998 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:44:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.119] (pm3shep1-163-29.intrepid.net [209.190.163.29]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA12915 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:46:25 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:28:14 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Guillermo: Mammal Peppers Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2263 I talked with Hugh Courtney this evening. A copy of the 'current' 'Recommendations' s.b. on the way to us. In the meantime, the 'Venus' dates fall in JANUARY this year as I understand it, so don't fret for now. I'll post the whole thing when it comes down here. Thanks -Allan Balliett moderator BD Now! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 9 18:53:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01327 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:53:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00787; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:49:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00534 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:47:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.119] (pm3shep1-163-29.intrepid.net [209.190.163.29]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA13609 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:49:48 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:51:24 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD: Book Review: Craig Holdredge MissesGenetics & the Manipulation of Life: The Forgotten Factor of Context Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2264 FWD from NE community food systems -AB Hi, Folks! I found this book *extremely* frustrating -- so I'm spreading the pain by clogging up your mailboxes with it! ;-D Oh, well, *one* lousy book out of all the ones I've reviewed isn't really such a bad record. . . Enjoy anyway! ;-) Dorene Genetics & the Manipulation of Life: The Forgotten Factor of Context by Craig Holdrege, Lindisfarne Press, 1996. ISBN: 0-940262-77-0, $14.95. The "right brain" (more properly known as the right hemisphere of the cerebral cortex) appreciates music and detects patterns while the "left brain" (the left hemisphere, etc.) uses language and delights in logic. To keep us whole persons who can use language to describe music, for instance, a brain structure known as the corpus callosum runs between the hemispheres so that electrical impulse, thoughts, etc. are given the benefit of both "sides" of the brain. If one sliced the corpus callosum, gave each resulting brain hemisphere access to an electronic word processor and told them to write a treatise about modern genetic theory, the result would be Craig Holdrege's Genetics & the Manipulation of Life: The Forgotten Factor of Context! When Holdrege's left brain is dictating the pages, the book (roughly from Chapters 2 through 4) is a clear, concise explanation of how current genetic theory was formed, If your high school biology teacher completely confused you when talking about genetics (especially once McClintock's "jumping genes" arrive on the scene), let Holdrege's 16 years experience teaching high school biology guide you through the maze of past genetic tinkerings and current biotechnology experiments. However, while Holdrege's right brain correctly warns that the environment (or context) as well as heredity determines the life of an organism, like a teenager who had a great opening sentence for a term paper, but can't find the research to write more than a page or two of the paper, Holdrege's right brain tends to draw "straw-man" arguments about genetic researchers who believe they know everything about how genes will work and pads his pages with repetition. Maybe I've been working in environmental science too long, but I personally haven't read (or heard on National Public Radio) anything by a reputable working scientist that would deny Holdrege's statement that "Neither organism nor environment can be understood without the other." Holdrege's right brain, however, would have you believe that current genetics researchers mantra really is "biology is destiny." Anyone who has followed the recent misadventures in gene-therapy trials at the University of Pennsylvania will hear scientists who admit in almost every interview that there is much in how cells and genes interact that they don't understand. That said, Holdrege is a remarkably clear writer who thinks interesting thought on both sides of his brain. Here's hoping that Craig Holdrege has his corpus callosum repaired soon! Reviewed by Dorene Pasekoff, Coordinator St. John's Organic Community Garden Phoenixville, PA Dorene Pasekoff, Coordinator St. John's Organic Community Garden A mission of St. John's United Church of Christ, 315 Gay Street, Phoenixville, PA 19460 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Nov 10 02:26:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA05678 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 02:26:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA17638; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 02:22:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA17242 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 02:17:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.133] by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FKY009TFUZA14@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 23:24:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 22:14:45 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Guillermo: Mammal Peppers In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2265 >I talked with Hugh Courtney this evening. A copy of the 'current' >'Recommendations' s.b. on the way to us. In the meantime, the 'Venus' dates >fall in JANUARY this year as I understand it, so don't fret for now. > >I'll post the whole thing when it comes down here. > Dear Allan: Please thank "Uncle" Courtney for his generous contributions, I for one treasure and follow JPI's advice, specially on sequential spraying. But, what about my question on burning whole mice (instead of just the skins) and burning the shell of an armadillo, anyone with a clue or previous experience? Well if the burning dates will be in January, then some of our Christmas food will have to share the freezer with the mice. I am sure Carina my wife will be thrill. Regards and thanks Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Nov 10 08:31:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08868 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:31:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06805; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06718 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:27:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.42] (pm3shep2-163-95.intrepid.net [209.190.163.95]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA05728 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:29:56 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:31:23 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Prep Making Work Weekends at JPI Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2266 9am thru 5pm Nov 13 and Nov 20 JPI will host public prep making activities focusing on BD 500. If you have always wanted to screen cow manure, stuff it into grade-A cow horns, and, if possible, bury the horns in living soil. For reservations and other information (there are no on-site accommodations at JPI and you'll have to supply your own meals), contact JPI directly.: The Josephine Porter Institute of Applied Biodynamics Post Office Box 133 Woolwine, Virginia 24185, U.S.A. Phone/Fax 1-540-530-2463 web: http://www.igg.com/bdnow/jpi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Nov 10 11:13:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12006 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:13:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24551; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from acc.haverford.edu (acc.haverford.edu [165.82.1.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23927 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [165.82.19.116] (s116.magill.haverford.edu [165.82.19.116]) by acc.haverford.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA01359 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:58:12 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:01:53 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Bruce Bumbarger Subject: Re: Making higher animals peppers ? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2267 Guillermo and others: I just forwarded the recommendations to AB. Sorry to keep you on the edge of your seats, but things take time. I let Allan know a week or so ago that I'd get them to him as soon as they were set, but things sometimes take longer than one hopes. A lot of work on Hugh's part (in between many conferences and his prep workshop weekend before last), then setting it up and proofreading on this end. In the future, if you ever need to consult the Recommendations, you can find them at www.biodynamics.com. Hugh generally looks ahead two to three months, so with the overlap the chances are good that you'll be able to find what you need. I need to warn you that there are some missing dates in the version posted in the #225 issue; Hugh notes this in the present version. I believe the schedule was being posted on the JPI website also. You should know that there is generally a bit more of a delay in getting the schedule out at the beginning of the year as some of the information that Hugh bases his schedule on isn't available until January or February. Allan mentioned that he'd not yet received his journal. The issue was sent out on October 1, so hopefully even allowing for bulk mailing delays everybody should have received theirs. I've indicated to him and would say to anybody else who misses an issue that it's probably more efficient to let me know rather than polling the multitudes, contacting the BDA office, &c. Contact info can be found in many places in each issue. A quick e-mail will "speed" missing issues to your mailbox and help us to make sure that any problems we may have with the mailing list are straightened out or alert you if the problem may be at your end. Allan asked about the BD Seed Exchange/Seed Saver Group the other day. It does indeed appear to be moving along. They had a meeting after the recent BD conference at Chestnut Ridge and will meet again in February. In the meanwhile, contact Debra Shaw, 17 Hillcrest Road, Whippany NJ 07981. She is apparently taking on the job of organizing a newsletter for the group. You might also try contacting Hugh Williams at Box 323, Philmont NY 12565. >>Dear Allan: >> >>Could you please post or ask JPI permision to post to the list the >>recommended dates for making peppers for large animals. I believe we are >>approaching that cosmic time. ("when Venus is on Scorpion") > >Dear Guillermo - Permission is not a problem.Hugh prepares the quarterly >recommended dates sheets because of a request that I made to him when I was >an editor of BIODYNAMICS journal. However, that info normally goes first >to the current BIODYNAMICS staff and then is forwarded to me at this end. >The end-of-the-year Recommendations unfortunately have not arrived yet. >Since I have yet to receive the Sept/October issue of BIODYNAMICS (has >anyone received theirs yet?), I can only assume there is some sort of a >slowdown at the BIODYNAMICS office(s). > >I'll fax Hugh in the a.m. and see if he'll send a copy of this valuable >information for practioners to us directly. > >Thanks for the reminder and Good luck on your projects! > >-Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Nov 10 13:14:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14671 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:14:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11674; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:10:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11100 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:06:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.95] (pm3shep1-163-29.intrepid.net [209.190.163.29]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00863 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:08:37 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:10:16 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Making higher animals peppers ? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2268 >I just forwarded the recommendations to AB. Sorry to keep you on the edge >of your seats, but things take time. I let Allan know a week or so ago that >I'd get them to him as soon as they were set, but things sometimes take >longer than one hopes. A lot of work on Hugh's part (in between many >conferences and his prep workshop weekend before last), then setting it up >and proofreading on this end. In the future, if you ever need to consult >the Recommendations, you can find them at www.biodynamics.com. Hugh >generally looks ahead two to three months, so with the overlap the chances >are good that you'll be able to find what you need. I need to warn you that >there are some missing dates in the version posted in the #225 issue; Hugh >notes this in the present version. I believe the schedule was being posted >on the JPI website also. "I believe the schedule was being posted on the JPI website" Jesus, Bruce, it's ALWAYS been posted on the JPI website. You didn't know that? It's REALLY BAD TASTE to post it on the BDA website because it's JPI CONTENT and content should never be copied, it s.b. referenced. What you need to do is LINK to the JPI site from the BDA site for the recommendations so that HUGH gets traffic to his site to help repay the tremendous effort he puts into this every month. That's why he asked you to pass a copy to me as soon as you got it: so it could be posted to the JPI site! Let's work together on this, eh? There are so v. few examples of this happening. This current misunderstanding makes it look like the BDA is coopting the efforts of an initiative. We both know that isn't the case. In the meantime: although I've called the BDA, the BD CSA number (your house?) and a reporter from Winchester VA did the same this spring, I see that Claymont CSA is NOT listed on the BDA CSA pages. I do see Virgil Faloon listed however, which is too bad. Years ago - many many years ago, Virgil set up a CSA in Berkley Springs WV and in the 2nd year absconded with all share payments. As far as I know, he's still a wanted man. Regarless of this, I see the BDA is still recommending him to people looking for CSAs. And, you know what, maybe FIVE YEARS AGO I reported this to the BDA and Virgil is STILL GETTING MORE PUBLICITY FROM THE BDA than my healthy, growing BIODYNAMIC CSA is GETTING!!! Congratulations on updating the BDA webpage. I can't find the link to BD Now! on there, would you point it out to me? Keep up the good work! -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Nov 10 15:05:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16742 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:05:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26406; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:02:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from acc.haverford.edu (acc.haverford.edu [165.82.1.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26041 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:58:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [165.82.19.116] (s116.magill.haverford.edu [165.82.19.116]) by acc.haverford.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAB19684 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:56:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:00:24 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Bruce Bumbarger Subject: Re: Making higher animals peppers ? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2269 Allan: Calm down a bit. I didn't realize I was breaking any of the rules of "netiquette." At your request, I've been sending you Hugh's material with every issue's update. You've been posting it here on the list. It was my understanding with you that you would also be putting it up on the JPI website, where you're listed as webmaster. I just went there and saw it hasn't been updated since March, despite the fact that I've been supplying it to you and you've been posting it here on this list. The BDA site, in addition to posting the recommendations, has a direct link to the JPI site. At some point last winter, Hugh okayed putting it up on the BDA website so that it would get as wide a distribution as possible and so that if one of us fell behind, it would still be out there. I have been passing it along as soon as I have it set up and checked, so I'm not sure what more I could be doing to "work together on this", short of never sleeping or seeing my wife and kids. As for bad taste, it seems a little odd to blast somebody in this fashion when they're trying their best to help get out wanted information. As far as the CSA list, people have been struggling mightily to update the thing. We've been working with a number of other groups to set up an up-to-date database, arranged by state, listing only those CSA's who have responded and indicated that they're still active. Should hopefully take care of the kind of thing you're referring to. It's my understanding that it's too late to be included on the first round, but it's going to be updated on a regular basis, perhaps monthly. There will be an on-line form and contact numbers by which people can add their CSA to the list if they miss this first go-around. I'm not sure why the Claymont CSA is not included on the list, but once this is set up you should be able to take care of it yourself. There is a Northeast CSA Conference this weekend, and I think more of the details regarding the list will be worked out there. As for the BDA website, I'm pretty much limited to supplying stuff from the journal that needs to go up there. I just checked, though, and think I can answer your question. If you want to contact BDNow!, go to www.biodynamics.com and click on the "links" button on the lower right side. You'll find the BDNow! list and the BDNow! website prominently listed as "promoters of biodynamics" or some such. It looks like people can subscribe to the list by clicking on a link that's there. Lots of other stuff, too, including, I see, a link to the seed circle you were asking about. Let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks for the nice comments. Bruce >Jesus, Bruce, it's ALWAYS been posted on the JPI website. You didn't know >that? It's REALLY BAD TASTE to post it on the BDA website because it's JPI >CONTENT and content should never be copied, it s.b. referenced. What you >need to do is LINK to the JPI site from the BDA site for the >recommendations so that HUGH gets traffic to his site to help repay the >tremendous effort he puts into this every month. That's why he asked you to >pass a copy to me as soon as you got it: so it could be posted to the JPI >site! > >Let's work together on this, eh? There are so v. few examples of this >happening. This current misunderstanding makes it look like the BDA is >coopting the efforts of an initiative. We both know that isn't the case. > >In the meantime: although I've called the BDA, the BD CSA number (your >house?) and a reporter from Winchester VA did the same this spring, I see >that Claymont CSA is NOT listed on the BDA CSA pages. I do see Virgil >Faloon listed however, which is too bad. Years ago - many many years ago, >Virgil set up a CSA in Berkley Springs WV and in the 2nd year absconded >with all share payments. As far as I know, he's still a wanted man. >Regarless of this, I see the BDA is still recommending him to people >looking for CSAs. And, you know what, maybe FIVE YEARS AGO I reported this >to the BDA and Virgil is STILL GETTING MORE PUBLICITY FROM THE BDA than my >healthy, growing BIODYNAMIC CSA is GETTING!!! > >Congratulations on updating the BDA webpage. I can't find the link to BD >Now! on there, would you point it out to me? > >Keep up the good work! -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Nov 10 15:10:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16825 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:10:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26967; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:06:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26633 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:04:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.014DB263@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:05:32 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 10 Nov 99 15:05:47 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 10 Nov 99 15:05:31 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:05:25 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: BD & $ Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2270 Employee participation in the ownership of capital is more important than ever. Not too long ago, some official study of incomes showed that the gap between rich-rich and normal labor has increased dramically. I don't remember the stats, but it was something like a 40 fold wage difference. The explanation behind the gargantuan wage earners (CEOs and such) was that their compensatoin was tied to company stocks. And we all know what's happend to the stock market in the last decade. It is nice to know that in some places the daily-grind workers are also participating in the stock bonanzas as well as the power/control sharing of their destinies. But no matter where or how your money comes to you, you still have to manage it ethically and not let the materialism of the "system" infect your own system with materialism. Anita > Ego, greed, laziness, selfishness, poor self-image and other human > traits disallow a perfect work-compensation environment. Employee-owned > companies may be the best we can do until we attain a higher level of > enlightenment. The performance of such companies is impressive. See > http://www.fed.org/leading_companies/may98/trends.html for an article > titled: Employee-Owned Companies Continue to Significantly > Outperform the Market > > > A report on worker-owned firms is at > http://www.ncesa.org/html/workown.html > > The first paragraph reads: > > ArialOne of the most promising trends > in the complex of corporate restructurings is the emergence of employee > participation in the ownership of capital within their own companies. > More than 15 million employees working in over 16,000 companies own > around 8 percent of all corporate equity. By far the largest component > of this growing movement is the Employee Stock Ownership Plan (ESOP) of > which there are over 11,000 across the country. About 1,900 companies > -- among them some of the largest in the nation -- are now majority > worker-owned. > > > > > Anita Graf Market Development of National Organic Products University of Georgia make a difference at http://thehungersite.com/ make a difference: http://www.thehungersite.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Nov 10 15:33:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA17132 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA29650; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA29313 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:26:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.014DB841@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:27:30 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 10 Nov 99 15:27:45 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 10 Nov 99 15:27:38 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:27:31 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: BD & $ an essay on simplicity and frugality Priority: normal References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id PAA29325 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2271 As a follow up to the work and money thread, I would like to pass along this essay which was recently sent to me. This is really the crux of the matter in my opinion. Anita IS SIMPLICITY DEAD? by Vicki Robin "Simplify. Simplify. Simplify." Thoreau? No. Your bank. Your new laptop. Your closet organizer. All promise to simplify your life. Does this prove that the ethic of simplicity has indeed arrived in America? Has our busy-ness backfired and opened the way for a renaissance of common sense? >From time to time I do a phone survey of my favorite trend trackers and futurists about the state of the Voluntary Simplicity movement. VS was heralded as one of the strongest trends of the 1990's. Is it still? "It's dead in the water!" declared one of my informants recently. "In fact, it's going backwards. The savings rate has gone negative, everyone and her brother is trying to get into the casino called Wall Street and the up-and-coming generation is the worst of the lot. They all want to be millionaires by the time they are 30." Whew! Could this be? Is our "movement" becoming a marginal note on the story of the 21st century? Are we drifting into becoming irrelevant? Are we even a "movement" at all? These questions, and many more, have been stirring in me for months. Will the lifestyle movements (simplicity, frugality, holistic health, natural foods, environmental concerns and personal growth processes) coalesce into a movement for more than personal change? Will people who have had the courage to swim against the current of our globalized material culture eventually realize that they want and need to work to change not just their own lives but the structures that are hostile to life itself? Might a kind of grassroots spreading of good will and good sense ultimately win out over the most destructive aspects of the commercialization and commodification that are invading of every corner of our lives? Will random acts by good people have enough oomph to overcome systemic problems? Can we really leave to "chance" or evolution something as threatening to the well-being of all life as overconsumption? Will there need to be a classic movement mobilization? If so, what will move people to move en masse? Will an issue (like genetically modified food) mobilize them? A leader (political, spiritual, NGO)? A strategic campaign (like Buy Nothing Day)? A final straw (like the cost of housing or gas or some other perceived essential skyrocketing)? A global catastrophe (maybe infrastructure fallout from Y2K or a massive toxic release or…)? A series of meetings or a convention or orchestrated demonstrations? In building this movement, do we include only people who have been through the "school" of simplicity and frugality? Do we insist that our allies, in some measure, "walk the talk"? Or do we recognize that the shift from the "myth of more" to an "ethic of enough" will also require the cadre of sophisticated, highly educated professionals and lobbyists that moved the environmental and civil rights agendas along - people who may care more about changing the world than they do about changing themselves? If a broad coalition is needed, how can it be built with respect on all sides? These questions, I recognize, are unique to North America - and perhaps Europe. Billions of people in this world don't have enough and have been, in a manner of speaking, pressing their noses against our department store windows and drooling. They want what we have, no doubt about it. This makes moderation on our part even more challenging. Are we to "give up" excess only to have the 5 billion have-lesses stampede in to grab it? I'll now step out from behind these questions to state my opinions. I do not believe the simplicity movement is "dead." I think it's pervasive and has gone way beyond mere downshifting. It has tendrils in many other lifestyle change movements as well as in suburbia and corporations. I believe that becoming visible to one another is the next step in taking ourselves seriously and gaining confidence in our contribution to society. I believe that the integrity of "walking the talk" is part of our strength, and telling our stories of struggle and transformation is a way we show our strength to one another. At the same time, I believe that we need to build a very broad coalition for change, infused with savvy and compassion, courage and critical thinking, community and fun. And I believe that these changes are essential to achieving equity and peace in the global family and that we will need to be helpful to our stuff-starved brothers and sisters as they go through their material maturation. Finally, I believe that people who have made small changes in their lives are by no means small people. They are the quiet leaven that has the potential to offer the world (and America) a better game than "more." We have the makings of a movement and have a big contribution to make. So the final question is: will we have the gumption to get out of our comfort zones and show the world that small is grand? Vicki Robin, coauthor with Joe Dominguez of Your Money or Your Life, is hosting a national videoconference on November 13, 1999; see www.newroadmap.org for information and www. resilientcommunities.org for a list of downlinks. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Nov 10 17:03:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19249 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:03:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA10635; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:58:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10200 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:56:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.83] (pm3shep2-163-83.intrepid.net [209.190.163.83]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA18137 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:58:07 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:52:00 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD: Demeter Position Opening Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2272 Heaven forbid that some of the unwashed on BD Now! apply for this position! >Mime-Version: 1.0 >X-Sender: jg16@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu >Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:26:24 -0500 >To: NE community food systems >From: Judy Green >Subject: Demeter Position Opening >Cc: demeter@baldcom.net >Sender: owner-nefood-l@listproc.tufts.edu > >Please respond directly to Anne Mendenhall at demeter@baldcom.net, and/or >share with anyone you think might be interested in this part-time position >in Aurora, NY. - JG > > > >JOB DESCRIPTION Administrative Assistant to the Director, Demeter >Biodynamic Assocation. > >Background. Demeter was founded in the early 1980's to certify Biodynamic >farms and processors and by so doing to make Biodynamic products more >widely known. The work was done by volunteers for several years. >Eventually a part-time secretary was hired. Numbers of certified farms >were fairly stagnant and certification work was mainly done by those >devoted to the cause of Biodynamic farming. > >In 1994 the administration moved to Aurora, NY and was contracted to Anne >Mendenhall, still being part-time. The organizational emphasis was on >increasing professionalism and training of farm evaluators, keeping forms >up to date, and developing high standards of performance for the farm and >processor certifications. The organization also began contributing to >consumer education by various means. The number of certified farms began >to grow slowly. In 1997 administrative tasks became a full time >committment. > >Purpose of the position: To assist the Director in the Director's place >of business in running certification programs for farms, processors, >manufacturers, handlers, and others as needed. > >Considerations: >A. The position can eventually entail considerable independence in >carrying out the necessary tasks once a sufficient level of training and >comprehension has been attained. The office receives a full range of >inquiries; many can be dealt with routinely. >B. The administrative assistant will need to work as a sub-contractor >without benefits. >C. Strict confidentiality must be maintained at all times in re >communications between the office staff and any other person, local, >national, or international. Information given out is limited to an >explanation of biodynamics, how the certification process works, >guidelines and standards, fees. Lack of discretion in this area cannot be >tolerated. Trust, respect, and even-handedness in dealing with all >persons are vital to the organization's health. >D. Some flexibility is possible initially in setting the work schedule; >however, once established the schedule should be respected. >E. A level of efficiency in getting tasks accomplished is expected. Break >times are not part of office procedure. The office schedule demands focus >and concentration. >F. Understanding of and sympathy toward issues around organic farming is >desirable. >G. It will be necessary to keep somewhat current with national legislation >relating to organic farming and subsequent national organic programs. >Some outside reading may be necessary at times. >H. Experience in working with computer, copier, fax machine is necessary. >I. A minimum commitment of one year is preferred. > > > >11/2/99 > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Nov 10 17:19:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19538 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:19:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA12408; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:16:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA12114 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:13:34 -0500 (EST) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id hSNCa16675 (3990) for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:15:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.e4d7ce80.255b486d@aol.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:15:09 EST Subject: Re: AG. & $ To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2273 Dear Michael, Yes, I've been there too, with all the best intentions. When Weleda US was smaller and I was still with Weleda, we tried all those things, pay according to need, minimal wages while living in community, etc. In the end an economic venture is as enlightened as its mission statement, and that has to be revised again and again. Mainly, it is a question of how to be a part of our society and that includes a decent wage, no matter how many lectures are read in the evening. The company has to support its coworkers fully, according to its capacity. The method of stepping wages up from trainee to levels of experience or training is really not unfair, as long as there are not excesses. And then, if someone wants to donate time or effort, that is fine too. I think just like we don't invent a new alphabet because of our spiritual orientation we don't have to reinvent some of the basic systems of remuneration in this country. Rather, we have the possibility of inventing new and interesting ways to serve people with what they need, and finding new ways to build healthy ventures. Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Nov 10 21:55:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23416 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:55:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA07779; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:51:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07158 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:45:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d152.infoserve.net [199.175.157.152]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA04130 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:52:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000601bf2bef$abf68060$989dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: AG. & $ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:51:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2274 Dear Christine, Totally agree with you that the best way for a 3-folding anthr. economic enterprise is when the employees are intimately involved with the decision making, both economically and strategy-wise. Many companies in Europe have been run that way for a long time without ever hearing about 3-folding, etc. How did it evolve with Weleda-I assume the Weleda USA? Michael -----Original Message----- From: Lilipoh@aol.com To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 2:26 PM Subject: Re: AG. & $ >Dear Michael, >Yes, I've been there too, with all the best intentions. When Weleda US was >smaller and I was still with Weleda, we tried all those things, pay according >to need, minimal wages while living in community, etc. >In the end an economic venture is as enlightened as its mission statement, >and that has to be revised again and again. Mainly, it is a question of how >to be a part of our society and that includes a decent wage, no matter how >many lectures are read in the evening. The company has to support its >coworkers fully, according to its capacity. The method of stepping wages up >from trainee to levels of experience or training is really not unfair, as >long as there are not excesses. And then, if someone wants to donate time or >effort, that is fine too. >I think just like we don't invent a new alphabet because of our spiritual >orientation we don't have to reinvent some of the basic systems of >remuneration in this country. Rather, we have the possibility of inventing >new and interesting ways to serve people with what they need, and finding new >ways to build healthy ventures. >Christine > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Nov 10 22:31:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA23940 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:31:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10526; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:27:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10410 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:26:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.83] (pm3shep3-163-125.intrepid.net [209.190.163.125]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA25604 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:28:04 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:29:46 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Peppering Mammals Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2275 >From Hugh Courtney's "RECOMMENDATIONS" With respect to vertebrate animals, Steiner specified that the skin of the animal must be burned when the planet Venus is "in the Scorpion". The resultant pepper is then scattered over the area to be protected from the particular animal. In the case of deer, mice, voles, gophers, groundhogs (woodchucks), coyotes and the like, one should use as much of the skin/hide as possible, but probably should omit the feet or other parts containing flesh or bone from the ashing process. For crows, pigeons, and other bird pests, skin as well as feathers are probably desired, again omitting flesh and bone from the ashing process. Given the fact that there are times when Venus is in Scorpio when some animals would be in hibernation and thus not as readily "harvestable", one can probably gather the skin of the "pest" at other times during the year rather than only when "Venus is in the Scorpion." There is a great deal of research to be carried out on the question of "pest peppers." We would like to encourage as many people as possible to conduct ashing experiments and especially encourage them to share their results - good, bad, or indifferent - with us, so that we may further share it through the JPI newsletter Applied Biodynamics. The next period for a transit of Venus through Scorpio is December 31, 1999 through January 24, 2000. Our current understanding is that the most favorable days for this are likely to be January 11 and 12, 2000 when Venus is at the "high conjunction" or midpoint of Scorpio/Scorpion. Earlier ashing may lead to negative results due to Venus's transit through the first half of Scorpio/Scorpion which is part of a sector of the heavens known as the "Via Combusta" or "Fiery Way." The Moon's transit through this sector yields a "void of course" Moon when its effects are thought to be nullified. If this sector has a similar effect on Venus, your ashing of animal pests may be in vain. Unless you have abundant pests to conduct ashing before, during, and after the "high conjuction" of Venus in this constellation, I would reserve the ashing for the midpoint or later of the Venus transit through Scorpio/Scorpion. As stated earlier, much research is needed on this question of ashing of animal pests. The complete text appears at the jpi www site at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/jpi From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Nov 11 00:03:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA25157 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:03:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17611; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:58:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17280 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:54:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.245] by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FL000DMHMD1JL@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:12:44 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:13:49 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Peppering Mammals In-reply-to: To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2276 Dear Allan, Bruce, Jim and Hugh Courtney: Many thanks to all of you for the kind help you provided to answer my questions on peppering high animals. And my apologies for starting something that ended up being conflictive, nothing was further from my mind. Warm regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Nov 11 02:56:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA27044 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 02:56:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA27031; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 02:52:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAB26794 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 02:48:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d162.infoserve.net [199.175.157.162]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA21073 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:54:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000f01bf2c19$ea8bd3a0$a29dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw:OFF/ A Little Humor on Microsoft Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:53:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF2BD6.DB7F1E00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2277 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF2BD6.DB7F1E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: John Zuk To: Michael Roboz Date: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 9:54 AM Subject: Fw: Microsoft A little Microsoft humour as well. --- John Zuk N. Vancouver, B.C. jazuk@telus.net ----- Original Message -----=20 From: fred.strelieff@sasktel.sk.ca=20 To: b.j.niedermayer@sk.sympatico.ca ; hstrelieff@focalpoint.net ; = sunice@derm.gov.sk.ca ; jazuk@telus.net=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 7:16 AM Subject: FW: Microsoft Hi Microsoft Dinner. Enjoy Fred >INSTRUCTIONS FOR MICROSOFT'S NEW TV DINNER PRODUCT: >You must first remove the plastic cover. By doing so you agree to = accept >and honor Microsoft rights to all TV dinners. You may not give anyone = else >a bite of your dinner (which would constitute an infringement of >Microsoft's rights). You may, however, let others smell and look at = your >dinner and are encouraged to tell them how good it is. >If you have a PC microwave oven, insert the dinner into the oven. Set = the >oven using these keystrokes: mstv.dinn.//08.5min@50%heat Then enter: >ms//start.cook_dindin/yummy\|/yum~yum:-)gohot#cookme. If you have a >Macintosh microwave oven, insert the dinner and press start. >The oven will set itself and cook the dinner. >If you have a Unix microwave oven, insert the dinner, enter the = ingredients >of the dinner found on the package label, the weight of the dinner, and = the >desired level of cooking and press start. The oven will calculate the = time >and heat and cook the dinner exactly to your specification. Be = forewarned >that Microsoft dinners may crash, in which case your oven must be >restarted. This is a simple procedure. >Remove the dinner from the oven and enter: >ms.nodarn.good/tryagain\again/again.darnit This process may have to be >repeated. Try unplugging the microwave and then doing a cold reboot. If >this doesn't work, contact your oven vendor. The oven itself is = obviously >on the blink. >Many users have reported that the dinner tray is far too big, larger = than >the dinner itself, having many useless compartments, most of which are >empty. These are for future menu items. If the tray is too large to fit = in >your oven, you will need to upgrade your equipment. Dinners are only >available from registered outlets, and only the chicken variety is >currently produced. If you want another variety, call Microsoft Help = and >they will explain that you really don't want another variety. = Microsoft >Chicken is all you really need. >Microsoft has disclosed plans to discontinue all smaller versions of = their >chicken dinners. Future releases will only be in the larger family = size. >Excess chicken may be stored for future use, but must be saved only in >Microsoft approved packaging. >Microsoft promises a dessert with every dinner after '98. However, = that >version has yet to be released. Users have permission to get thrilled = in >advance. >Microsoft dinners may be incompatible with other dinners in the = freezer, >causing your freezer to self-defrost. This is a feature, not a bug. = Your >freezer probably should have been defrosted anyway. > > >_____________________________________________ >Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! >http://www.MyOwnEmail.com > ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF2BD6.DB7F1E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 John Zuk <jazuk@telus.net>
To: = Michael=20 Roboz <mroboz@infoserve.net>
D= ate:=20 Wednesday, November 10, 1999 9:54 AM
Subject: Fw:=20 Microsoft

A little Microsoft humour as well.
---
John Zuk
N.  Vancouver, B.C.
jazuk@telus.net
----- Original Message -----=20
From: fred.strelieff@sasktel.sk.ca =
To: b.j.niedermayer@sk.sympatico.ca ; hstrelieff@focalpoint.net ; sunice@derm.gov.sk.ca ; jazuk@telus.net
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 7:16 AM
Subject: FW: Microsoft



Hi
Microsoft Dinner.=20 Enjoy

Fred



>INSTRUCTIONS FOR MICROSOFT'S NEW TV = DINNER=20 PRODUCT:

>You must first remove the plastic cover. By doing so = you=20 agree to accept
>and honor Microsoft rights to all TV dinners. You = may not=20 give anyone else
>a bite of your dinner (which would constitute an = infringement of
>Microsoft's rights). You may, however, let others = smell=20 and look at your
>dinner and are encouraged to tell them how good = it=20 is.
>If you have a PC microwave oven, insert the dinner into the = oven. Set=20 the
>oven using these keystrokes:  = mstv.dinn.//08.5min@50%heat Then=20 enter:
>ms//start.cook_dindin/yummy\|/yum~yum:-)gohot#cookme. = If you=20 have a
>Macintosh microwave oven, insert the dinner and press=20 start.
>The oven will set itself and cook the dinner.
>If = you have a=20 Unix microwave oven, insert the dinner, enter the ingredients
>of = the=20 dinner found on the package label, the weight of the dinner, and=20 the
>desired level of cooking and press start. The oven will = calculate the=20 time
>and heat and cook the dinner exactly to your = specification.  Be=20 forewarned
>that Microsoft dinners may crash, in which case your = oven must=20 be
>restarted. This is a simple procedure.
>Remove the = dinner from=20 the oven and enter:
>ms.nodarn.good/tryagain\again/again.darnit = This=20 process may have to be
>repeated. Try unplugging the microwave and = then=20 doing a cold reboot. If
>this doesn't work, contact your oven = vendor. The=20 oven itself is obviously
>on the blink.
>Many users have = reported=20 that the dinner tray is far too big, larger than
>the dinner = itself,=20 having many useless compartments, most of which are
>empty. These = are for=20 future menu items. If the tray is too large to fit in
>your oven, = you will=20 need to upgrade your equipment.  Dinners are only
>available = from=20 registered outlets, and only the chicken variety is
>currently = produced.=20 If you want another variety, call Microsoft Help and
>they will = explain=20 that you really don't want another variety.  = Microsoft
>Chicken is=20 all you really need.
>Microsoft has disclosed plans to discontinue = all=20 smaller versions of their
>chicken dinners. Future releases will = only be=20 in the larger family size.
>Excess chicken may be stored for = future use,=20 but must be saved only in
>Microsoft approved = packaging.
>Microsoft=20 promises a dessert with every dinner after '98.  However,=20 that
>version has yet to be released. Users have permission to get = thrilled in
>advance.
>Microsoft dinners may be incompatible = with=20 other dinners in the freezer,
>causing your freezer to = self-defrost. This=20 is a feature, not a bug. Your
>freezer probably should have been = defrosted=20 anyway.
>
>
>__________________________________________= ___
>Free=20 email with personality! Over 200=20 domains!
>http://www.MyOwnEmail.com
>

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF2BD6.DB7F1E00-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Nov 11 08:01:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29052 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:01:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA13892; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:57:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA13618 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:52:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from erols.com (207-172-77-130.s130.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.77.130]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25914; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:54:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <382ABCC6.15989357@erols.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:55:34 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Peppering Mammals References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2278 Thanks, Allan. Now the question is - who's going to come trap my pests for me??? Well, at least deer season starts in VA on 11/15. There's going to be murder and mayhem everywhere on the farm on Monday! R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Nov 11 08:05:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29100 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:05:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA14158; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:01:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA13957 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:58:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.83] (pm3shep2-163-73.intrepid.net [209.190.163.73]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA25288 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:01:08 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <382ABCC6.15989357@erols.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:02:55 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Peppering Mammals Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2279 >Thanks, Allan. > >Now the question is - who's going to come trap my pests for me??? > >Well, at least deer season starts in VA on 11/15. There's going to be >murder and mayhem everywhere on the farm on Monday! > >R. I thought a guy could use just a piece of hide, but it looks like you're going to have to burn an entire hide. I have to admit, my attempt at skinning a groundhog sickened me last year. However, I have one 'set up' to trap shortly. I better get on with it. No? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Nov 11 08:35:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29520 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:35:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15353; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:24:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15047 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:18:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from erols.com (207-172-77-130.s130.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.77.130]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04951; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:20:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <382AC2FE.F49C1E9E@erols.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:22:06 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Peppering Mammals References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2280 Well, I just skinned and butchered a deer (he had long since expired). Not too bad. And I got to keep the tenderloins for myself. Took 'em home, made a stir fry of soy sauce, olive oil, garlic, onions, and white wine. Yum! Wish I'd know enough to keep the skin then - R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Nov 11 11:46:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03218 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:46:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04150; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:41:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from CLEMSON.EDU (mail.clemson.edu [130.127.28.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03422 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:35:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from teresa_pc ([130.127.54.95]) by CLEMSON.EDU (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA04333 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:38:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19991111113431.009873c0@mail.clemson.edu> X-Sender: twlsn@mail.clemson.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:38:02 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Teresa Wilson Subject: OFF: Labels For US Bio-tech Food? In-Reply-To: References: <381A97DF.F47@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_13742083==_.ALT" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2281 --=====================_13742083==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: World News-InterPress Services http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/nov99/23_14_085.html TECHNOLOGY-US: Labels For US Bio-tech Food? By Danielle Knight WASHINGTON, Nov. 10 (IPS) - A group of US lawmakers said Wednesday they would introduce legislation soon to require the mandatory labeling of all food containing trace amounts of genetically engineered products. Called the "Genetically Engineered Food Right to Know Act" the proposed bill would oppose the current US regulatory position that genetically modified foods were no different to other food products. The bill would include the labeling of meat, diary and poultry products. Foods that contained milk from a cow injected with genetically engineered hormones, for example, would be labeled as produced with genetically engineered material. The 20 lawmakers said the wide presence of genetic engineering in today's foods posed certain health risks, including increased toxicity, increased exposure to allergens and antibiotic resistance. ''Today's limited scientific knowledge warrants allowing consumers to make a better, more informed choice,'' Rep. Dennis Kucinich, a Democrat from Ohio, told reporters. He said he was working with Senators on parallel labeling legislation. Kucinich and other representatives pointed to unforeseen reports such as the Cornell University study that concluded pollen from genetically modified Bt corn was toxic to Monarch butterfly larvae. They said biotechnology also may result in other unintended environmental risks, including the cross pollination of gen-tech crops with wild plants, causing pesticide resistance and the growth of so-called 'super-weeds.' While the policy makers said biotechnology may provide some benefits, they said consumers should be allowed to know what is in the food they are eating. ''I believe bio-engineered foods hold great potential for consumers, but US citizens have the right to make informed decisions about the food they buy,'' said Jack Metcalf, a Republican representative from Washington state. The launch of the proposed legislation follows a call made earlier this week by 48 mostly Democratic members of Congress, who urged the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to label all bio- tech food. Representative David Bonior, the second-ranking Democrat in the House said the FDA must ensure that consumers get the ''vital information'' they need about bio-engineered foods. Lawmakers said the FDA could easily require the special labels, much like it does for foods treated with irradiation or to identify a fruit juice as fresh or frozen, or non-fat products. Genetically modified foods make up a growing percentage of the US food supply. More than 50 percent of US produced soybeans is now genetically engineered and about 30 percent of corn is grown from altered seed. Despite the widespread application of the new technology, however, US consumers' worries about the products have not paralleled the widespread concern in Europe. Responding to consumers fears of long-term health and environmental problems because of gene modification, the European Union recently said it would require labels on foods containing more than one percent genetically-altered ingredients. Japan and Australia, among the other countries, already have adopted labeling requirements but supporters of labeling products worry that their efforts may be challenged if they are seen as barriers to free trade. Kucinich and other representatives said they predicted the issue of labels likely would be discussed at the upcoming World Trade Organisation (WTO) in Seattle, Washington, Nov. 30-Dec 3. ''If consumer labels are in fact challenged at the WTO,'' it would further prove that the global trade body should be ''drastically revised,'' said Kucinich. Consumer, public health and environmental organisations praised the proposed labeling bill. ''By requiring the labeling of all genetically engineered foods, the legislation will provide some of the information necessary for the public to make informed choices about the types of food they consume,'' said Joseph Mendelson, legal director of the Washington based Center for Food Safety. Because genetic engineering can increase natural toxin levels in food and transfer allergens into new foods, people with food or chemical sensitivity should be able to know how to avoid these products, said Jean Halloran, director of the Consumers Union's Consumer Policy Institute. ''Someone who suffers from food allergies should have the right to know how to avoid food that has been genetically altered,'' she said. Representative Bernie Sanders, Independent of Vermont said mass public support will be needed to pull enough lawmakers behind the bill. Sanders had tried and failed to pass similar legislation to label dairy products made with the milk of cows that had been injected with bovine growth hormones. ''We will not be successful unless many people rally behind this idea,'' he said. (END/IPS/dk/mk/99) --=====================_13742083==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" From: World News-InterPress Services http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/nov99/23_14_085.html

TECHNOLOGY-US: Labels For US Bio-tech Food?

By Danielle Knight
WASHINGTON, Nov. 10 (IPS) - A group of US lawmakers said Wednesday they would introduce legislation soon to require the
mandatory labeling of all food containing trace amounts of genetically engineered products.

Called the "Genetically Engineered Food Right to Know Act" the proposed bill would oppose the current US regulatory position that
genetically modified foods were no different to other food products.

The bill would include the labeling of meat, diary and poultry products. Foods that contained milk from a cow injected with genetically
engineered hormones, for example, would be labeled as produced with genetically engineered material.

The 20 lawmakers said the wide presence of genetic engineering in today's foods posed certain health risks, including increased toxicity,
increased exposure to allergens and antibiotic resistance.

''Today's limited scientific knowledge warrants allowing consumers to make a better, more informed choice,'' Rep. Dennis Kucinich, a
Democrat from Ohio, told reporters. He said he was working with Senators on parallel labeling legislation.

Kucinich and other representatives pointed to unforeseen reports such as the Cornell University study that concluded pollen from
genetically modified Bt corn was toxic to Monarch butterfly larvae.

They said biotechnology also may result in other unintended environmental risks, including the cross pollination of gen-tech crops with
wild plants, causing pesticide resistance and the growth of so-called 'super-weeds.'

While the policy makers said biotechnology may provide some benefits, they said consumers should be allowed to know what is in the
food they are eating.

''I believe bio-engineered foods hold great potential for consumers, but US citizens have the right to make informed decisions about the
food they buy,'' said Jack Metcalf, a Republican representative from Washington state.

The launch of the proposed legislation follows a call made earlier this week by 48 mostly Democratic members of Congress, who urged the
US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to label all bio- tech food.

Representative David Bonior, the second-ranking Democrat in the House said the FDA must ensure that consumers get the ''vital
information'' they need about bio-engineered foods.

Lawmakers said the FDA could easily require the special labels, much like it does for foods treated with irradiation or to identify a fruit
juice as fresh or frozen, or non-fat products.

Genetically modified foods make up a growing percentage of the US food supply. More than 50 percent of US produced soybeans is now
genetically engineered and about 30 percent of corn is grown from altered seed.

Despite the widespread application of the new technology, however, US consumers' worries about the products have not paralleled the
widespread concern in Europe.

Responding to consumers fears of long-term health and environmental problems because of gene modification, the European Union
recently said it would require labels on foods containing more than one percent genetically-altered ingredients.

Japan and Australia, among the other countries, already have adopted labeling requirements but supporters of labeling products worry
that their efforts may be challenged if they are seen as barriers to free trade.

Kucinich and other representatives said they predicted the issue of labels likely would be discussed at the upcoming World Trade
Organisation (WTO) in Seattle, Washington, Nov. 30-Dec 3.

''If consumer labels are in fact challenged at the WTO,'' it would further prove that the global trade body should be ''drastically revised,''
said Kucinich.

Consumer, public health and environmental organisations praised the proposed labeling bill.

''By requiring the labeling of all genetically engineered foods, the legislation will provide some of the information necessary for the public
to make informed choices about the types of food they consume,'' said Joseph Mendelson, legal director of the Washington based Center
for Food Safety.

Because genetic engineering can increase natural toxin levels in food and transfer allergens into new foods, people with food or chemical
sensitivity should be able to know how to avoid these products, said Jean Halloran, director of the Consumers Union's Consumer Policy
Institute.

''Someone who suffers from food allergies should have the right to know how to avoid food that has been genetically altered,'' she said.

Representative Bernie Sanders, Independent of Vermont said mass public support will be needed to pull enough lawmakers behind the bill. Sanders had tried and failed to pass similar legislation to label dairy products made with the milk of cows that had been injected with
bovine growth hormones.

''We will not be successful unless many people rally behind this idea,'' he said. (END/IPS/dk/mk/99)
--=====================_13742083==_.ALT-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Nov 11 20:27:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02664 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:27:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA06130; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:20:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA05510 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:14:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from computer (whan-004.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.104]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12945; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:33:47 +1300 Message-ID: <014b01bf2caa$dfbaffa0$68f631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: "Rger and Barbara Gillatt" , "Neil MacGregor" , "Ian Henderson" , "Derek Keene" , "Vince Kerr" , "bdnow" Subject: GE Wheat Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:11:35 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00FD_01BF2D17.D3F352E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2282 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00FD_01BF2D17.D3F352E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_00FE_01BF2D17.D3F352E0" ------=_NextPart_001_00FE_01BF2D17.D3F352E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 19c =20 Auckland =20 17c =20 Wellington =20 11c =20 Christchurch =20 =20 =20 FRIDAY, 12 NOVEMBER 1999 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 NEWS =20 =20 30/10/99 - Delays likely for = engineered wheat crop=20 =20 By Eugene Bingham=20 An investigation into why genetic = changes to a wheat strain are a commercial secret may put a planned = trial crop on hold.=20 After initially approving food giant = Monsanto's request for secrecy, a Government watchdog confirmed = yesterday that it may delay the trial.=20 The Environmental Risk Management = Authority received a record 2000 submissions on the company's = application to field test genetically engineered wheat in Canterbury.=20 Among submitters was Friends of the = Earth researcher Wendy Johnson, who has complained to the Ombudsman = about the authority's refusal to reveal what genes Monsanto has inserted = into the wheat.=20 Normally, the authority would set a date = for a public hearing within five weeks, but its chief executive, Dr Bas = Walker, said yesterday that the authority might wait for a decision from = the Ombudsman.=20 "That is something we are actively = investigating right now."=20 Dr Walker said that although the = authority looked at requests for commercial secrecy "upfront," it would = have to review such requests more closely in future.=20 "To date, it has not been much of an = issue. We are certainly going to have to be much more conscious of this = in future."=20 Consideration of such requests involved = a balancing act between a company's right to protect its intellectual = property and the public's ability to make informed submissions.=20 In this case, the authority had believed = that, as the application was for a field test, enough information would = have been made public.=20 Dr Walker yesterday backed down on a = claim he made on radio that the origin of the gene inserted into the = wheat had been revealed. He told National Radio that Monsanto's = application showed the gene was from a particular soil bacterium, but = later he admitted to the Weekend Herald that this was a "transformer = gene" and that the genes inserted into the wheat were a secret.=20 Wendy Johnson said she believed the = public had a right to know what "bits and pieces of the animal and plant = kingdom" had been inserted into the wheat. "It's supposed to be a public = consultation process."=20 Meanwhile, the number of submissions has = staggered food campaigners and politicians. Previously, the highest = number received was 30.=20 The authority said most were from people = opposed to the application, with some of the key issues including fears = of cross-pollination from the Monsanto wheat to other strains, and the = potential impacts on the country's clean, green image.=20 Green party co-leader Jeanette = Fitzsimons said the reaction showed the depth of people's feelings. "It = shows the awareness of people, and the fact that people are feeling more = confident about expressing a view and feeling they will be heard."=20 It reinforced the need for a moratorium = on genetically engineered field trials and for a commission of inquiry = into the issue.=20 =20 =20 =20 To print this page in plain text, please = click here. =20 =A9 Copyright 1999, NZ Herald=20 =20 =20 SEND THIS STORY TO A FRIEND << = LAST STORY | NEXT STORY >> =20 . Click here for search tips =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_00FE_01BF2D17.D3F352E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D"New
   19c
Auckland=20
   17c
Wellington=20
   11c
Christchurch=20
FRIDAY,  12=20 NOVEMBER 1999 
3DCorporate=203DListener3DWises3D"New
=20
=20
3D""
 
3D""
  NEWS    
  30/10/99 -=20 Delays likely for engineered wheat=20 crop
By = Eugene Bingham=20 =20

An investigation into why genetic = changes to=20 a wheat strain are a commercial secret = may put a=20 planned trial crop on hold.=20

After initially approving food giant=20 Monsanto's request for secrecy, a = Government=20 watchdog confirmed yesterday that it may = delay=20 the trial.=20

The Environmental Risk Management = Authority=20 received a record 2000 submissions on = the=20 company's application to field test = genetically=20 engineered wheat in Canterbury.=20

Among submitters was Friends of the = Earth=20 researcher Wendy Johnson, who has = complained to=20 the Ombudsman about the authority's = refusal to=20 reveal what genes Monsanto has inserted = into the=20 wheat.=20

Normally, the authority would set a = date for=20 a public hearing within five weeks, but = its=20 chief executive, Dr Bas Walker, said = yesterday=20 that the authority might wait for a = decision=20 from the Ombudsman.=20

"That is something we are = actively=20 investigating right now."=20

Dr Walker said that although the = authority=20 looked at requests for commercial = secrecy=20 "upfront," it would have to = review=20 such requests more closely in future.=20

"To date, it has not been much = of an=20 issue. We are certainly going to have to = be much=20 more conscious of this in future."=20

Consideration of such requests = involved a=20 balancing act between a company's right = to=20 protect its intellectual property and = the=20 public's ability to make informed = submissions.=20

In this case, the authority had = believed=20 that, as the application was for a field = test,=20 enough information would have been made = public.=20

Dr Walker yesterday backed down on a = claim he=20 made on radio that the origin of the = gene=20 inserted into the wheat had been = revealed. He=20 told National Radio that Monsanto's = application=20 showed the gene was from a particular = soil=20 bacterium, but later he admitted to the = Weekend=20 Herald that this was a "transformer = gene" and that the genes inserted = into the=20 wheat were a secret.=20

Wendy Johnson said she believed the = public=20 had a right to know what "bits and = pieces=20 of the animal and plant kingdom" = had been=20 inserted into the wheat. "It's = supposed to=20 be a public consultation process."=20

Meanwhile, the number of submissions = has=20 staggered food campaigners and = politicians.=20 Previously, the highest number received = was 30.=20

The authority said most were from = people=20 opposed to the application, with some of = the key=20 issues including fears of = cross-pollination from=20 the Monsanto wheat to other strains, and = the=20 potential impacts on the country's = clean, green=20 image.=20

Green party co-leader Jeanette = Fitzsimons=20 said the reaction showed the depth of = people's=20 feelings. "It shows the awareness = of=20 people, and the fact that people are = feeling=20 more confident about expressing a view = and=20 feeling they will be heard."=20

It reinforced the need for a = moratorium on=20 genetically engineered field trials and = for a=20 commission of inquiry into the issue.=20


To print=20 this page in plain text, please click here.

© Copyright 1999, NZ = Herald=20

=20 =20
SEND THIS STORY TO A = FRIEND=20
<<=20 LAST STORY | NEXT STORY >>=20 3D""=20
.=20
3D""=20 =20 Click here for search = tips=20 3D""
Sent: Friday, November 26, 1999 = 11:22=20 AM
Subject: Re: R. Steiner Book = (was=20 Biodynamic Reading)

Dear Friend Enigma,

This = question gets=20 asked and answered so often I'm sure folks did not realize you were = not in on=20 the recent discussion. Perhaps someday a suggested reading list will = be on a=20 web page or something. Here was my recent post (actually a re-posting = of=20 another's thoughtful post) to another person's asking this question. I = hope it=20 helps, good fortune.
------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BF38CE.3847A0E0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Nov 27 12:13:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05606 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:13:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13575; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:09:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13424 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:06:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ap.net (D-11.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.12]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05253 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 09:09:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38401019.9EF3D2AC@ap.net> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 09:08:41 -0800 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Re; 500 vs Etherics K (whatever that is) References: <383EDD88.DF850091@xtra.co.nz> <383F4365.67D4@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2467 my "what a lovely bunch of coconuts!" eaccess.. nitpicking, suspicion, mistrust and a general waste of time. just what a community needs. you are not informing the list of anything other than your need to exercise your ego. please, try at least one breath before you hit the send key next time. Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > eaccess wrote: > > > > Glen > > > > you are being a little loose with the facts > > > > Garuda Biodynamics is not a listed company > > This is part of a legal trust > > , but Garuda Herbs is, and > > Peter Bacchus is a Director. > > This is a herb growing company and in no direct way is it related to > Garuda trust. > > > > > interested persons may search the company register for themselves. > > www.companies.govt.nz. > > > > JT > > I will be away from my compouter for a day or two so answers will have > to wait till I return, if this thread goes further. > > Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Nov 27 15:15:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07155 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:15:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25254; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:11:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.42]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25105 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:09:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.75.32] (du-148-233-75-32.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FLV00H90HFEZX@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 14:12:04 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 14:12:21 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Re; 500 vs Etherics K (whatever that is) In-reply-to: <38401019.9EF3D2AC@ap.net> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <383EDD88.DF850091@xtra.co.nz> <383F4365.67D4@xtra.co.nz> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id PAA25112 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2468 >my "what a lovely bunch of coconuts!" eaccess.. nitpicking, suspicion, >mistrust and a general waste of time. just what a community needs. you >are not informing the list of anything other than your need to exercise >your ego. please, try at least one breath before you hit the send key >next time. Hey David: What is the deal with you ? It seems to me that you really like pointing fingers, what is the use ?, my suggestion to you is to learn from the postings and let interpersonal issues be just that; interpersonal. I am afraid nor you or anyone else, have enough elements or the right to judge something like what it seems like a disagreement between two people (Michael R. and his neighbor, Glen and James). I guess I am also guilty of pointing a finger to you, so, my apologies. Best Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Nov 27 20:47:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09886 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 20:47:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15410; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 20:43:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from cobalt7-he.global.net.uk (cobalt7-he.global.net.uk [195.147.246.167]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15237 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 20:40:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from pe8s06a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.230.233] helo=compaq) by cobalt7-he.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11rlS9-00029d-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 17:16:06 +0000 Message-ID: <38408775.5FE4@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 01:37:57 +0000 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Rbgh/Robert Cohen's fight to get it banned References: <383EDD88.DF850091@xtra.co.nz> <383F4365.67D4@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2469 Dear All are you aware Robert Cohen is on hungerstrike trying to get the FDA to ban the use of genetic Rbgh he needs help please join the cause write to FDA to Donna Shalala or J Henney hhsmail@os.dhhs.gov or Jhenney@oc.fda.gov and state your objections I am sending poems every day,or other day Ref to quote Docket 99-P-4613 Please help him His site is notmilkman@notmilk.com or dorietz@awod.com > ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From london@metalab.unc.edu Sat Nov 27 20:52:21 1999 -0500 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09957 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 20:52:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15749; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 20:47:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from cobalt7-he.global.net.uk (cobalt7-he.global.net.uk [195.147.246.167]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15435 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 20:43:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from pe8s06a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.230.233] helo=compaq) by cobalt7-he.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11rlVA-0002Ib-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 17:19:13 +0000 Message-ID: <38408842.5119@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 01:41:22 +0000 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Rape References: <383EDD88.DF850091@xtra.co.nz> <383F4365.67D4@xtra.co.nz> <38408775.5FE4@globalnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2470 Cook's Delight wrote: > Can anyone help me by advising what the likelyhood is of high erucic acid rape pollen infecting low erucic acid rape plants or wild plants and whether this has ever happened in the States. Rex Tyler > > ------------------------ > visit us at Cook's Delight: > http://surf.to/cooksdelight > > from August 15, 1999 > http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk > > ------------------------ -- ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Nov 27 23:44:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA11424 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 23:44:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA24335; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 23:40:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (dfprxy02.prodigy.net.mx [148.235.168.41] (may be forged)) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA24042 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 23:36:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.181] (148-233-78-181.du.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FLW006CW4WAGU@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 22:38:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 22:39:03 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Potentizing of the Preparations. (an Introduction) In-reply-to: <38409370.3DCC7E8E@xtra.co.nz> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2471 Dear James: Many thanks for your excellent post. I hope it is indeed "an introduction" and that more of your clear and well documented exposition follow. Warm greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 28 06:17:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA14195 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 06:17:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA08595; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 06:12:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from garnet.sover.net (garnet.sover.net [209.198.87.53]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA08541 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 06:11:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from bdl (pm0a8.ben.sover.net [207.136.200.8]) by garnet.sover.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA02152; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 06:14:14 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) bdl from pm0a8.ben.sover.net [207.136.200.8] 207.136.200.8 Sun, 28 Nov 1999 06:14:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001101bf3990$62fd3b20$08c888cf@bdl> From: "B. David Lively" To: Cc: "Teresa VanWagner" Subject: Re: Rbgh/Robert Cohen's fight to get it banned Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 06:04:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2472 Folks, The whole story with Mr. Cohen goes way beyond his fight to have FDA ban rBGH [BST]....Monsanto's milk maker. Ultimately, Robert wants all milk and dairy products completly out of our long accepted source of food. Although my personal preference as a dairyman was not to use the product, and today I go out of my way to find organic whole milk, I will not support his cause to destroy our entire dairy industry. Healthy cows do not produce puss and slime that sicken our body. All I would request is that you know the whole 'notmilk' story, before you jump on Robert Cohen's colen cleanout. Dave B. David Lively 3H Farm Bennington, Vermont bdl@sover.net Visit **Dairy Action** at http://www.digital.net/milk Join the Dairy Action Discussion List: http://www.digital.net/milk/joindadl.htm Nancy H. Lively "May you live all the days of your life" -----Original Message----- From: Cook's Delight To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 8:47 PM Subject: Rbgh/Robert Cohen's fight to get it banned >Dear All are you aware Robert Cohen is on hungerstrike trying to get the >FDA to ban the use of genetic Rbgh he needs help please join the cause >write to FDA to Donna Shalala or J Henney >hhsmail@os.dhhs.gov or Jhenney@oc.fda.gov and state your objections >I am sending poems every day,or other day Ref to quote Docket 99-P-4613 >Please help him >His site is notmilkman@notmilk.com or dorietz@awod.com >> >------------------------ >visit us at Cook's Delight: >http://surf.to/cooksdelight > >from August 15, 1999 >http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk > >------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 28 08:09:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14740 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:09:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11415; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:05:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cobalt3-he.global.net.uk (cobalt3-he.global.net.uk [195.147.246.163]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA11375 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:05:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from p0as03a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.227.11] helo=compaq) by cobalt3-he.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11s43V-0004Qm-00; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 05:07:53 -0800 Message-ID: <384127EE.1807@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 13:02:39 +0000 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org CC: Teresa VanWagner Subject: Re: Rbgh/Robert Cohen's fight to get it banned References: <001101bf3990$62fd3b20$08c888cf@bdl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2473 B. David Lively wrote: > > Folks, > > The whole story with Mr. Cohen goes way beyond his fight to have FDA ban > rBGH [BST]....Monsanto's milk maker. > Ultimately, Robert wants all milk and dairy products completly out of our > long accepted source of food. > > Although my personal preference as a dairyman was not to use the product, > and today I go out of my way to find organic whole milk, I will not support > his cause to destroy our entire dairy industry. > > Healthy cows do not produce puss and slime that sicken our body. > > All I would request is that you know the whole 'notmilk' story, before you > jump on Robert Cohen's colen cleanout. > > Dave > > B. David Lively > 3H Farm > Bennington, Vermont > > bdl@sover.net > Visit **Dairy Action** at http://www.digital.net/milk > Join the Dairy Action Discussion List: > http://www.digital.net/milk/joindadl.htm > Nancy H. Lively "May you live all the days of your life" > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cook's Delight > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 8:47 PM > Subject: Rbgh/Robert Cohen's fight to get it banned > > >Dear All are you aware Robert Cohen is on hungerstrike trying to get the > >FDA to ban the use of genetic Rbgh he needs help please join the cause > >write to FDA to Donna Shalala or J Henney > >hhsmail@os.dhhs.gov or Jhenney@oc.fda.gov and state your objections > >I am sending poems every day,or other day Ref to quote Docket 99-P-4613 > >Please help him > >His site is notmilkman@notmilk.com or dorietz@awod.com > >> > >------------------------ > >visit us at Cook's Delight: > >http://surf.to/cooksdelight > > > >from August 15, 1999 > >http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk > > > >------------------------ Well thanks for replying anyway,genetic rbgh is not something I want in my food and is banned here in Europe I was just helping and will continue to help him get the FDA to get this garbage out of the food trade. What you do I haven't a clue about but I don't have to stand by and watch Monsanto's Genetic genius taking over either,and if one man who ever he is, is doing something about it, I will support him and may be some others may too.When humans believe cows milk is for them,and continue to drink it when they are adults I have to ask myself what's gone wrong with the Natural World. Rex Tyler -- ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 28 08:36:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14860 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:36:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12228; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:32:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12066 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:31:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-109-61.s61.tnt1.war.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.109.61] helo=erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11s4Sy-0003PM-00; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:34:13 -0500 Message-ID: <38412F9D.B089E8A2@erols.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:35:25 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Rbgh/Robert Cohen's fight to get it banned References: <383EDD88.DF850091@xtra.co.nz> <383F4365.67D4@xtra.co.nz> <38408775.5FE4@globalnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2474 I agree with the fight; can't imagine going on a hunger strike - that is, punishing oneself for someone else's mis-doings - is a very sane approach. What's with all this mis-directed anger??? R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 28 08:45:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14898 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:45:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12766; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:41:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from cobalt7-ps.global.net.uk (cobalt7-ps.global.net.uk [195.147.248.167]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12675 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:39:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from pcas06a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.230.203] helo=compaq) by cobalt7-ps.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11s4az-0007h3-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 05:42:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3841300D.352D@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 13:37:17 +0000 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Rbgh/Robert Cohen's fight to get it banned References: <383EDD88.DF850091@xtra.co.nz> <383F4365.67D4@xtra.co.nz> <38408775.5FE4@globalnet.co.uk> <38412F9D.B089E8A2@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2475 Robert Farr wrote: > > I agree with the fight; can't imagine going on a hunger strike - that > is, punishing oneself for someone else's mis-doings - is a very sane > approach. > > What's with all this mis-directed anger??? > > R. Yes it does seem strange but Robert is committed to what he's doing and thats his way,anger are well not to worry I just thought I 'd ask perhaps its not the place or the time. rex -- ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 28 10:17:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15292 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:17:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15857; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:12:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from fb01.eng00.mindspring.net (fb01.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.200.167]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15664 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:09:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ghost (pool-209-138-53-48.tmpa.grid.net [209.138.53.48]) by fb01.eng00.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA23563 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:11:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <006801bf39b2$32128660$30358ad1@ghost> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Enigma" To: References: <383EDD88.DF850091@xtra.co.nz> <383F4365.67D4@xtra.co.nz> <38408775.5FE4@globalnet.co.uk> <38412F9D.B089E8A2@erols.com> <3841300D.352D@globalnet.co.uk> Subject: Re: Rbgh/Robert Cohen's fight to get it banned Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:06:48 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2476 Is it just me, or is anyone else having problems understanding what people are writing? My Grammar is pretty bad, but the posts lately are challenging even me. ----- Original Message ----- From: Cook's Delight To: Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 8:37 AM Subject: Re: Rbgh/Robert Cohen's fight to get it banned > Robert Farr wrote: > > > > I agree with the fight; can't imagine going on a hunger strike - that > > is, punishing oneself for someone else's mis-doings - is a very sane > > approach. > > > > What's with all this mis-directed anger??? > > > > R. > Yes it does seem strange but Robert is committed to what he's doing and > thats his way,anger are well not to worry I just thought I 'd ask > perhaps its not the place or the time. > > rex > -- > ------------------------ > visit us at Cook's Delight: > http://surf.to/cooksdelight > > from August 15, 1999 > http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk > > ------------------------ > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 28 17:24:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19922 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:24:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14618; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:19:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14534 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:18:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip039.computer.net [140.186.252.39]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA14753 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:22:00 -0500 (EST) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:22:26 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: November 28, 1999 - December 04, 1999 Message-ID: <148C4F8596F6A56885256837007ADFC2.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id RAA14535 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2477 Calendar of the Soul [November 28, 1999 - December 04, 1999] Thirty-fifth Week (December 1-7) Can I know life's reality So that it's found again Within my soul's creative urge? I feel that I am granted power To make my self, as humble part, At home within the cosmic self. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Kann ich das Sein erkennen, Dass es sich wiederfindet Im Seelenschaffensdrange? Ich fühle, dass mir Macht verlieh'n, Das eigne Selbst dem Weltenselbst Als Glied bescheiden einzuleben. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+35 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 28 17:54:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20189 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:54:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16824; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:46:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from commando.mobilixnet.dk ([195.78.82.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA16476 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:42:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from carol (dialin-102-115.mobilixnet.dk [212.97.195.115]) by commando.mobilixnet.dk (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA79917 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:45:24 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991128214959.00a49100@mail.mobilixnet.dk> X-Sender: mob34587@mail.mobilixnet.dk (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:49:59 +0100 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Carol Jensen Subject: Re: Oak, Fe, Mars and Ca In-Reply-To: <383CE93C.69EA@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2478 At 20:46 25-11-1999 +1300, you wrote: >> >> Each time the sunspots occur, in the evening of the occurrence at dusk it is >> easy to see the blood red vapour almost as thick as fog. >> I have never ever noticed it to be so brilliantly coloured. The red I would >> think is iron, iron related to magnetism as opposed to calcium. >> However, it almost appears to have a whiteness to it resembling a milky red. >> Do you have any thoughts on this? > >No not really, other than Fe is one of the elements that comes from the >Sun to Earth. > > Astrologers relate Mars with Iron, courage, etc. Carol >> I ran into a problem with the lectures that i don't know how to solve. >> I do not remember precisly which element or preparation that you relate to >> the planet mars but i do remember that i objected that iron was the element >> and there fore must be related to Stinging Nettle. > >I have always alotted Mars to 504. However Hugh I believe has said it is >Valerian and 504 is for the Sun. I then replied if 508 was for Saturn >then I suggest 504 was for Mars and 507 would be for the Sun. I got no >further reply to this. > >Lievegeod says 504 for Mars > > > >> >> Then, i looked up again Steiners reference to the oak tree. Paraphrased of >> course; >> >> "Anyone wishing to plant oak trees should be familiar with the periods of >> Mars". >> >> This is perplexing. > >Yes, there is a duality active here and the axiom 'that all is right' is >worth perservering with. > >I can not give you someone else answer on this, although I do know >people do assign the Oak to Mars in certain circumstances. In BD Decoded >page 79 I have given a short section called " A suggestion for Plant >observation" In this section I suggested that we look at plant >classification in a four fold manner. In short there are four levels >that influence a plant form according to the influence of the four >bodies. > >The first overall influence we can call the Egoic influence in the case >of the Oak will be Jupiter. It is a deciduious tree with a rounded >jupiterian form as opposed to the pine form of the triangle. (see >Podolinsky) > >The next level of Astral level we can seen in the inner growth process >which in the Oak can be considered Marsian. This is the growth process >of new growth growing out to a tip which then dies off, so that the new >growth sprouts from buds lower down. eg Hydrangea. > >I am pretty sure this is what is referred to here. > >The etheric level of the Quercus Robor (used for the preps) shows up in >the strong chemical ether processes active in the wavey leaves. This >etheric layer also shows up in this plant accumulating calcium in its >bark.78% This indicates and earthing of this strong etheric 'potential'. > >The fourth 'physical' layer I suggest is the adaption a particular tree >type makes to the physical reality it finds itself it. The phynotype as >it where. > > If oak bark is rich in etheric calcium how would it be >> possible for mars to transmit iron. > >I am not sure of what mars process the Oak conveys and therefore what >relevance iron has to the Oak function. However I can suggest that with >Mars showing itself at the Astral layer of this trees activity, that it >would therefore suggest the need to take Mars into account when >planting. Mars, the planet, as I have said before is a world astral >being. Could this suggest we can conclude that the Astral planetary >rulership of any plant will therefore be the one we use when 'planting >by the Moon'?????. To extend the analogy. The Birch is a (egoic) Jupiter >tree too, however its inner Astral form is very Venusian with a light >etheric layer showing up in its very many small fine leaves. We can >therefore associate this to sowing and planting this tree under a Venus >influence and most notably a Libra constellation due to the Venus/light >association??????. > >> >> This caused me to think about RS's characterization of the tree as mounded >> humus. If this is true then just what kind of calcium is concentrated in >> the oak bark preparation. > > >It is Terrestrial Calcium which is concentrated in the Oak Bark >preparation as opposed to the Cosmic Calcium in the Chamomile >preparation. The Oak Bark binds the etheric body to the Earth, which is >why we use the bark of the OAk. The 'mounded up earth' has captured and >concentrated the lime which is the mineral carrier of the terrestrial >calcium. > > > As far as that goes if horn manure gives us rich >> calcium? > >Is 500 giving us rich Calcium or is it giving us an activation of the >calcium pole of activity??? which is not the same as mineral calcium. > >The 'calcium pole' in this context is a general metaphor for a whole >range of activities which can be generally catagorised as 'female', >'moon' etc and is related to the metabolic pole of living organisms. ( >lect 2 Ag lect.). Calcium anchors this activity to the Earth and is the >primary element in this process, eg. we need at least 60+% Ca in the >soil for the etheric to be sufficently sucked to the earth, however it >is not the only element in this process. Mg, K , Na, Cu, Zn, Se and O >all have a part to play in this 'Calcium' pole and 500s activity. > >It is necessary (or at least helpful) to appreciate that creation is a >manifestation of a spiralling vortex which has six primary layers. The >second layer is a two fold process which we can generalise as Si (501) >and Ca (500). By the time we get to layer five of the planets and the >compost preparations, this layer two polarity has complexed to become >sevenfold. (See BD Decoded). You are becomming confused by trying to >combine one part of layer 5 - the Moon (saturns polarity), with one part >of layer 2 - which can also be called the Moon but at this levels is the >Suns polarity. > >All very confusing which is why I have written BDD. > > >then in biodynamics are the types of calcium we are refering to the >> exact opposite of the chemical establishment or what they would refer to as >> acid. It is so much different than what we would get out of a bag from the >> local Ag. supply. > >No, not really. We however have the calcium in homoeopathic dilution. By >using the preps we are activating the mineral calcium already present in >the soil. Which is why if we use the BD preps we must maintain an image >of what is happening to the mineral calcium in the soil, as by us >activating it, we are using it up faster. So there maybe no shortage in >the plant analysis, yet a shortage developing in the soil. We are in >fact mining the calcium by using the preps. All very well for a period >of time till you run out and have all sorts of problems. Balance and >moderation is the key to life, so a little often is far preferrable to >heaps every five years. > >Glen A > > -------------------------------------------------------- Free ezine tells you how to start in Internet Marketing, and WHY the marketing gurus are correct! mailto:jorna@mobilixnet.dk?Subject=subscribe -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 28 17:54:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20197 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:54:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16882; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:46:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from commando.mobilixnet.dk ([195.78.82.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA16479 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:42:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from carol (dialin-102-115.mobilixnet.dk [212.97.195.115]) by commando.mobilixnet.dk (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA79929 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:45:27 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991128221848.00a4a650@mail.mobilixnet.dk> X-Sender: mob34587@mail.mobilixnet.dk (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 22:18:48 +0100 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Carol Jensen Subject: Re: bd vs organic foods In-Reply-To: References: <006901bf3766$8e5e4d80$77032cc3@m00q6c00> <001401bf370b$82ecfb00$9d9dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2479 At 11:25 25-11-1999 -0600, you wrote: >>ÿþ > >Hey Tony: How you do that ? > >Can someone kindly tell me what "n b s p" mean, I have seen it quite a bit, but do not have a clue. > >regards > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > >   is a non-breaking space, used when you don't want a line break just there. (Or as a formating tweak). Carol -------------------------------------------------------- Free ezine tells you how to start in Internet Marketing, and WHY the marketing gurus are correct! mailto:jorna@mobilixnet.dk?Subject=subscribe -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 28 19:18:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21012 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 19:18:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA23833; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 19:13:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA23696 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 19:11:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.53] (r-67.44.alltel.net [166.102.67.44]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA28132 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 18:14:34 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3841300D.352D@globalnet.co.uk> References: <383EDD88.DF850091@xtra.co.nz> <383F4365.67D4@xtra.co.nz> <38408775.5FE4@globalnet.co.uk> <38412F9D.B089E8A2@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 13:43:25 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Rbgh/Robert Cohen's fight to get it banned Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2480 Dear Folks, Actually a hunger strike is not as crazy as it may seem. For those who have never endured long fasts with no food, only water, please understand that it only sounds crazy. Often I've heard people argue about whether Jesus could have poossibly gone out in the desert and fasted for 40 days and nights. While I can't see how to do this without water, let me assure you it can be done more easily than most realize without food. And it is the best thing I know of for focusing the will and tuning up the immune system. I've fasted a week or 10 days on numerous occasions and can testify as to its health benefits both physically and mentally. I had a neighbor who cured herself of Hodgkins lymphoma with a month long water fast followed by a grape and grape juice diet. My father fasted 28 days on water to cure erysipelas. Neither of these folks were stout or rotund when they started. 40 days isn't infeasible either, though I won't dispute that some weakness as a natural result, and one should be careful about going back on food. I've known of fasting curing such things as tetanus (lockjaw) and I wonder what fasting on Sosei Water might do for even more intractible things like rheumatoid arthritis where the body's immune system is attacking the body itself. Anyway, I wouldn't suggest this practice be judged by those who haven't tried it. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 28 20:03:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA21525 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:03:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA27889; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 19:59:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.65]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA27470 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 19:55:04 -0500 (EST) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id h.0.2587ef16 (4595) for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 19:57:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.2587ef16.25732978@aol.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 19:57:28 EST Subject: companion planting w/olive trees To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 53 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2481 Does anyone know what crops can be interplanted with olive trees, as well as any plants that are beneficial to olive trees? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 28 21:31:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22155 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:31:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA07189; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:26:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06972 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:23:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.53] (r-67.188.alltel.net [166.102.67.188]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id UAA23018 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:26:18 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0.58f872c7.25700f51@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:29:01 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Pfeiffer vs Preps was: 500 vs Etherics K Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2482 Now since you brought up the the other products, how do they compare to the preps (502-507) for making compost (and of course the resulting quality of same) in your experience. Dear Dan, I don't know. I haven't done much along this line. Maybe the CompoStar is better at least in getting the pile to break down well. As to whether the effects of the preps this culture was derived from are still present I'm not too sure. There's more to the preps than bacteria. I'd be inclined to use this culture along with barrel compost. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Nov 28 23:45:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA23870 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:45:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17406; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:38:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17337 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:37:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-86.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.86]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA04855 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:40:43 +1100 Message-ID: <004d01bf3a23$c9100580$56431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Potentizing of the Preparations. (an Introduction) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:21:45 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2483 Dear Jim, Thank you for that amazing collation of material re potentisation. I have one question that was not answered in all that other information. At what level are we working in when we use 60x potency? The reason that I ask is that recently one of our farmers used 6x potency of Bower Bird and Fruit Bat peppers on their BD farm and it worked so well, that their next door neighbours asked that they spray their orchard too. As the lady making the peppers is also a dowser, she checked the potency required and found that the neighbours required 60x potency. From previous work, we have found that the lower potencies do not work on land that has not received the benefit of the BD preparations, particularly the 502-507. But this higher potency worked on the unprepped land. One really starts to appreciate the importance of the BD preparations in connecting the land to the cosmos when this sort of thing comes up, so I am wondering, is it a spiritual level that we are working at for 60x or karmic, and is it drawing on energies to the detriment of others, or not? I appreciate the fact that maybe we shouldn't use peppers on land where the people have not made the effort to use BD before, but sometimes this can be the turning point for them to now start to make changes. Thanks Jim for your time, Cheryl Kemp Education & News Leaf Editor Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 email bio@midcoast.com.au -----Original Message----- From: eaccess To: BDNow Date: Sunday, 28 November 1999 1:40 pm Subject: Potentizing of the Preparations. (an Introduction) >Dear List. > >The Primary reference work on this subject is "Agriculture of Tomorrow" >by E. Kolisko and L. Kolisko. First published in about 1939 and more >recently, a second edition in 1978,. > >Included in this book are results of experiments done with Potentizing >of the Biodynamic Preparations. Part three of the book, (p. 219 in the >first, p. 159 in the second edition) deals with "Rudolf Steiner's >indications for a renewal of Agriculture" > >Experiments were done from the first to the 60th potency. > >To quote directly from the introduction to Chapter 1 of Part Two >"Smallest Entities in Agriculture" > >"----What does "potentize" mean? Exactly what the word itself >expresses. In potentizing a substance, we increase its effectiveness. >We make the substance more potent. The strange thing about >potentizing is, that we have to reduce the amount of the substance >which we want to make more potent. In everyday life we are accustomed >to think: if we want to make something more effective, we have to take >a bigger quantity. For instance, if we want to make coffee sweeter, we >take a second teaspoonful of sugar (provided we have it!). In >homeopathy we are told just the opposite thing. If we want a stronger >action from a certain remedy, we have to potentize it, that means to >dilute it in water or alcohol, again and again, in a rhythmical way. > >That is the first and most important thing we have to learn: to >discriminate between matter and force. Matter can act in two different >ways: as matter, or as the specific force behind the matter. In >everyday life we ask only for matter, for quantity, and we do not even >stop to think, that there is something like a force which is active in >every kind of matter. Sugar is not only sweet, - that is one quality of >sugar we discover by means of our rather coarse sense of taste. Besides >being sweet, sugar has many other qualities we cannot taste, but our >organism realizes them; only we are not aware of everything that sugar >does in our organism. > >Now we must raise another important question: What do we want in >reality? The substance itself, or the inner quality of the substance? >"........... end quote. > > > >The techniques of Potentizing have been previously posted on this site, >there is no need to go into the details again, however some additional >references from Rudolf Steiner may be useful, in particular an >understanding of how various Homeopathic potencies work in Man ( from a >Medical point of view.) >>From understanding these workings in Man as an "Individuality" we might >then try to understand how to apply similar concepts- if indeed they do >apply - to the "Agricultural Individuality" since it is there that the >Biodynamic Preparations work. > >IN MAN > >Physical body, Etheric Body, Astral Body and >Ego. (1) > > >the interactions between these four "Bodies" gives his threefold >nature. > >i.e. >between his Physical Body and Etheric Body - Thinking > >between his Etheric Body and his Astral Body - Feeling > >between his Astral Body and his Ego - >Willing. (2) > >this threefolding of mans organism is expressed through his >Nerve-sense system, his Rythmic system and his Metabolic System and >targeted generally by the potencies as follows: > >Lower potencies D0 - 6 work on the metabolic system > >Middle potencies D8 - 15 work on the rhythmic system > >Higher potencies D20 - 30 work on the nervous system. (3) > > > >Without going into the more specialised ways of applying potencies from >the Animal, mineral or vegetable kingdoms and the different ways of >applying them, lets look at the Biodynamic Compost Preparations >(excluding for the moment the Cow Horn Preparations of Manure and >Silica.) and remembering that Steiner indicated (4) that they can be >added to Liquid Manure, and not only Compost or Farmyard-manure. - he >did not indicate that the 500 and 501 could be used this way. > >The Preparations fall into two Sets:- A focus for the working of two >groups of "Entities" in Nature > >The first set of Dandelion (warmth ether) , Oak Bark (light ether) and >Valerian (tone ether) >Clay (life ether) might now be accepted as part of this set. >and >the second set of Nettle, Chamomile and Yarrow. -( all to do with the >working of Nitrogen.) > >All except Clay are originally Plant Materials, but in the case of >Dandelion, Oak Bark, Chamomile and Yarrow, Animal parts are used in >their preparation, and when exposed to the cycle of the year, >A Rhythm in Time plus their exposure to the animal influences, has >already in a sense "activated " the original plant materials, they >assume a different influence, and this can be readily seen from >Kolisko's work. > >Back to Kolisko:- > >Dandelion- is the subject of Chapter IV Part III and we note that the >prepared dandelion increased the weight of the experimental plants >considerably, with the 26th Potency giving the maximum leaf and for >the root, maximum at 13th potency. > >Oak Bark- is the subject of Chapter III Part III and we note once >again the difference between the prepared Oak Bark and the control, the >first leaf >maximum at the 5th Potency, the second at the 47th and the third at the >53rd. >The root growth had a maximum at the 50th and 59th Potencies. >Once again the weight of the dried plants was increased with the >preparation. > >Valerian - is the subject in Chapter VIII Part III - this >preparation does not have to be especially prepared over a yearly >cycle, however Steiner indicated "Dilute the extract very highly" - >Kolisko's experiments showed a clear graph in which for the leaves, the >8th potency was the first maximum, and they recommended that this be >the one used for the compost or manure. The root maximum occurred at the >6th potency. However the maximum weight occurred at the 23rd and 47th >potency. > >So we can see from these experimental results, if these preparations >are potentised, they can be "Tailored" to produce either leaf or root >growth in a very remarkable way. That is, we can influence the etheric >working of the plant into the "Agricultural Individuality" either above >ground or below ground. > >Now to Nettle. >The subject of Chapter VII, Part III, the most noticeable difference >is that the roots are considerably improved, with three Maxima at 8th, >42nd , and 58th potencies. >The maximum leaf at 46th potency. In general, the weight of the plant >was increased by twice and sometimes even more. > >For Chamomile >The subject of Chapter V Part III, Once again the preparation gave >plants with more weight, leaf maximum first occurred at the 4th potency, >second at 32nd, third at 49th. The roots having maximum growth at 35th >and 51st potencies. > >and Yarrow >Chapter VI, Part III, here the Kolisko's used preparations of >different ages, and the results are a little more complex, however, the >highest potencies enabled the plants to put on weight, the maximum >weight at the 20th potency and a second at 48th and 54th. The Graph >being quite markedly divided into two periods. >The roots had more distinct maximum and minimum peaks, in the first >period, the 6th and 19th potencies having the maximum effect, in the >second period one maximum at the 49th potency. > > >A common factor in all the above experiments is the increase in dry >weight of the plants grown with the preparations. > >Those persons who would like the preparations to work in a more >specialised way, either to enhance leaf or root for any purpose, when >Manureing, will find it easy to apply the results obtained above, by >making up a special manure with the specific potentised preparations >required for the result desired. > >As a guideline to the potencies to be used, there may or may not be a >connection, but perhaps keeping in mind that the "Agricultural >Individuality" has the "metabolic" system above the ground and the >"nerve sense" system below ground . There have been previous discussions >about the nature of the "Agricultural Individuality" on this list. > > >Back to Steiner: > >referring to Kolisko's work he says, >"You can see the exact curves worked out, showing how the forces of >growth rise and fall; you can see how the curve must be drawn for >smaller dilutions and how for greater ones. You can see how certain >dilutions produce the minimum while other dilutions produce the maximum >of growth..... >the curve then drops back to the minimum to rise again to the maximum. >Thus, in the extremely conscientious drawing of these curves we obtain >a direct insight into a rhythm working in all matter, a rhythm which >expresses the Spiritual in all matter. In man we pass from the >metabolic system to the rhythmic system; and we can also discover the >rhythmic system in nature in a quite exact scientific way." and >further........." In future, if this result of research is valued >aright, investigations will not merely be made along the lines of scale >and measure, the laws of nature will not merely be investigated >atomically, but it will be recognised that in all matter a rhythm can >be discovered, and that the rhythm in the occurrences of nature >reproduce the Rhythm of the Cosmos. (5) > > >1. "At the The Gates of Spiritual Science" Rudolf Steiner. Lecture 1 >- The Being of Man. 22 August 1906 - Rudolf Steiner press. 1986. > >2. "Cosmosophy" Vol. 1 - Rudolf Steiner - Lecture 4, Oct.1st. 1921. >Anthroposophic Press 1985. > >3. The Anthroposophical Approach to Medicine, Volume 2 - Husemann/Wolff >P. 75. > >4. "Agriculture" Rudolf Steiner P.100 (second edition) > >5. "The Evolution of the World and of Humanity" Rudolf Steiner - >Lecture 12. p. 217 etc. 1926 edition.Anthroposophical Publishing >Company. > > >JT. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 29 02:51:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA25307 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 02:51:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA28463; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 02:45:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (root@coffsdns.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA28323 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 02:41:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-74.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.74]) by coffsdns.ecopost.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA05230 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:44:45 +1100 Message-ID: <00b101bf3a3d$7cf7e4a0$56431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Fw: OFF: Seattle Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:04:19 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2484 --To BD Now Listers, Are any of you going to this, what is happening in your areas re World Trade or aren't you involved in any way? Cheryl Kemp. >An article from re: the WTO conference in Seattle. >JOIN A CARAVAN, DON A TURTLE COSTUME--IT'S > WTO TIME IN SEATTLE. > >Raising a Ruckus > by JOHN NICHOLS > > Somewhere amid the dancing sea turtles and bustling WTO > bureaucrats, the angry anarchists and the Al Gore entourage, the > striking steelworkers and the billionaires in town to sip cocktails >with > Bill Gates, Michael Moore might just bump into Michael Moore on > the streets of Seattle. One Michael Moore is the new director general > of the WTO, a free-trader who earned the name "Mad Mike'' as a > militant privatizer of public services when he served briefly as prime > minister of New Zealand. He'll have as many as 6,000 bureaucrats at > his side, as well as the Clinton White House and legions of corporate > PR flacks flown in for the purpose. The other Michael Moore is the > journalist and agitator famous for his corporation-skewering film > Roger and Me. He intends to use his celebrity--and a little namesake > irony--to raise tough questions about the WTO's policies. > > How big a battle will Seattle see? Even the most ambitious organizers > are cautious about numbers. But President Clinton, who is scheduled > to address the WTO session, says, "Every group in the world with an > ax to grind is going to Seattle to demonstrate. I'll have more > demonstrators against me than I've had in the whole seven years I've > been President." Unions are expected to mount the loudest protest. > > The AFL-CIO has rented 12,000-seat Memorial Stadium for a > November 30 rally and dispatched more than twenty organizers to > pull in the crowds for a march that some strategists predict will draw > more than 50,000. State labor federations in Wisconsin and > Minnesota are flying in jetloads of their members, Teamsters will be > busing in from Tennessee and a multicar train will carry trade >unionists > from Portland up the coast. The Steelworkers have rented more than > 1,000 hotel rooms in nearby Tacoma and are planning a national > caravan to Seattle. The Machinists' union has pledged to provide > 1,000 shop stewards to serve as marshals for the march, and there is > talk that the Seattle area's huge aircraft factories--where the > Machinists have some of their largest locals in the country--will stand > idle on the afternoon of the rally. "I don't think the WTO realized > when they planned this for Seattle that they were setting down in one > of the most heavily unionized cities in the United States,'' says Bob > Gorman, who is coordinating organizing efforts for the union march. > "There are 120,000 union members in Seattle and more than 400,000 > AFL-CIO members in Washington State. Add to that members of > non-affiliated unions like the teachers, who are backing us, and close > to 80,000 retirees, and you're talking about a real base to work from. > And believe me, we are working it.'' Throw in Canadians coming in > from nearby Vancouver and across that country, as well as labor > activists from as far away as India, the Caribbean and Britain, and > you've got the makings of a crowd that will be difficult to dismiss as > the "grumpy, geriatric communists'' the WTO's Moore says are his > organization's chief foes. > > Each day that the WTO is in official session will see a parallel series > of alternative events: a focus on the environment and health on > November 29, labor and human rights on November 30, women, > democracy and development on December 1, and food and > agriculture policy on December 2. In addition there will be a Fair > Trade Fair designed to showcase alternatives to corporate > mass-products, a tractor cavalcade, a farm rally featuring Texas > populist Jim Hightower, a march by animal welfare activists clad as > sea turtles and other creatures endangered by WTO rulings, mass > prayer meetings at local churches and an evening rally with a > candle-waving chain of activists that will surround the convention > center where the WTO meets. Teach-ins will feature Vandana Shiva > of India's Research Foundation for Science, Technology and > Ecology, futurist Jeremy Rifkin and Body Shop executive Anita > Roddick. Ralph Nader will debate free-trade supporters. A "Seattle > Steel Party'' will see union members dump steel into the Seattle > harbor to protest "globalization without representation.'' (Don't >worry, > say organizers, the steel will be recovered from the harbor after the > protest to maintain good ties with coalition partners like Clean Water > Action.) The Berkeley-based Ruckus Society and the Art and > Revolution Street Theater Troupe of San Francisco will employ > everything from giant puppets to techno music and street-blocking > dancers to "shut down the WTO.'' > > Republican King County Council member Brian Derdowski, a WTO > critic, told a local reporter in August that the whole event will be >"the > greatest security risk this region has ever known,'' and law > enforcement agencies express concern that Seattle could see a replay > of the June 18 anti-globalization riots that caused major property > damage in London and other European cities. Organizers such as > People for Fair Trade's Jeremy Madsen worry more about the effects > of spin. "The only real fear I have is that there are people who will >try > to use any excuse to turn the subject away from the WTO itself,'' says > Madsen. "But I don't think it will happen. We're on message and > we're not going to let anyone pull us off.'' > > Not all the groups that will be in Seattle are on board for the > shutdown strategy--and even within labor there is a rift between those > who want to pull the United States out of the WTO altogether and > those who simply want Washington to work within the organization to > protect American industries. Yet so far, the disparate elements > continue to march toward Seattle in relative unison. That goes for > international groups as well, many of which have been ahead of the > United States in trade activism. "When the WTO decided to hold this > meeting in the United States, I think they made a mistake," says > Pedro Juan Hernandez, an economist from El Salvador whose > Ciudadania y Desarrollo (Citizenship and Development) group has > long been active on WTO-related issues. "They created an > opportunity to educate people in the United States about the whole > issue of globalization, and I think this is what is happening." Adds > John Kinsman, a Wisconsin dairy farmer who will leave his herd for > several days to make the trip to Seattle, "I think they thought they > could put this meeting in the United States and nobody would care. > But they're going to find out that an awful lot of us do care.'' > > Mark Ritchie, president of the Institute for Agriculture and Trade > Policy, says once the Seattle meetings are over, the work will only be > beginning (his group will provide an Internet feed from Seattle, at > wtowatch.org, that will allow people around the world to follow > developments inside the WTO meeting and on the street twenty-four > hours a day). "Seattle is going to be a wake-up call, but we need to > be ready to answer it in cities and towns across the United States," he > says. "There is going to be a gigantic reaction to what happens in > Seattle, and we have to be ready to harvest it.'' > >--------- >"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil, is that good people do >nothing " Edmund Burke >"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change >the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has" Margaret Mead > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: welink-unsubscribe@lists.c2o.org >For additional commands, e-mail: welink-help@lists.c2o.org > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 29 03:23:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA25557 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 03:23:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA29794; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 03:17:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA29678 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 03:15:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([203.96.104.20]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991129081747.QSAQ1333179.mta3-rme@default> for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:17:47 +1300 Message-ID: <384238B5.AC8@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:26:29 +1300 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: Biodynamic Reading] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------386177A82DDA" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2485 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------386177A82DDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Brian. Here is a book list put out to the list some time ago by the agdoc . Happy reading. Tony Robinson New ZEaland --------------386177A82DDA Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from envirolink.org ([208.195.208.7]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990815203651.LNQS2478302.mta2-rme@envirolink.org>; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:36:51 +1200 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA13329; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA13214 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:25:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 153.37.28.34 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 13:28:25 -0700 Message-ID: <002601bee75d$5f0e4ca0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: Biodynamic Reading Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 13:33:00 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Dear Friends of Biodynamic Agriculture, I've been interested in the various comments on bd literature lately. It needs to be said: There are many fine books and booklets to choose from on biodynamics in general as well as on more specific topics. Some of these are available in English, some in French and Spanish and many in German (some other languages are available too). Below, I've first listed a potential reading list for beginners of various kinds, then further down I've listed just a couple of my favorite (english) books that I have used over the last 25 years myself as well as with apprentices and mature practitioners in many countries and in varying situations. I've added some personal commentary to them as a further aide in choosing where to start. Although I do not agree with everything that is said in all these books, I do believe they provide a healthy spectrum of bd ideas, experiences and background for the would-be or even practicing bd farmer or gardener. In the future, I may have time to add further commentaries to this list. I have not listed all the bd books (by far not), nor is the list complete even as a beginners intro to bd literature. Its just a start, but I felt compelled to add a few titles to those already briefly mentioned on the BDNOW list. Happy reading! Andrew If you are only just getting interested in biodynamics and want to see if it is for you, read: 1. Biodynamic Agriculture, Schilthuis 2. Culture and Horticulture, Storl 3. Biodynamics, New Zealand Biodynamic Association If you are already a little familiar with bd, but want more (after reading the above 3), read: 1. Laws of Life in Agriculture, Remer 2. Agricutlure of Tomorrow, Kolisko 3. Soil Fertility, Pfeiffer If you have truly read the above and are ready to get really serious about practicing bd, then I suggest: 1. Theosophy, Steiner 2. Nature Spirits, Steiner 3. Esoteric Science, An Outline, Steiner 4. The Agriculture Course, Steiner Once you've studied these, then dont forget: 1. A Biodynamic Book of Moons, Klocek 2. Biodynamic Introductory Lectures, Vol 1 & 2, Podolinsky 3. The Biodynamic Farm, Koepf 4. Biodynamic Greenhouse Management, Grotzke 5. Bringing a Garden to Life, Williams 6. Gaiasophy, Zoeteman 7. Gardening for Health and Nutrition, Philbrick Agriculture of Tomorrow, Eugen & Lili Kolisko Probably the single most important book about biodynamics besides the agricuture course itself. Actually written by Lili Kolisko after Eugen's death, this book is the result of several decades of work by both of the Kolisko's. Eugen was a medical doctor and Lili a biologist. Lili was considered by many one of Steiner's closest students and was certainly an amazingly hard working scientist. She attended the agricutlure course, was allowed to stenograph all the lectures and then established the primarily to work on his agricultural indications and was funded in large part initially by Rudolf Steiner himself. The book is an easy read actually, despite the charts and many photographs of initially strange looking substances, shapes and colors. Most significant is that it outlines the scientific ideas behind biodynamics as a practice. Lots of practical advice, ideas and insights. Truly amazing. Out of print, I think, but this one is worth buying at a used book store or trading for if you can get it. Culture and Horticulture : A Philosophy of Gardening by Wolf D. Storl is still probably the finest, single volume introduction to biodynamics written in English. Wolf gives a concise intro to the history, methods and thinking behind biodynamics without loosing the spiritual character of this unique system of working with nature. The copy Wolf gave me in January of 1980 (just after it was published) still sits within reach of my desk and contiunes to be an inspiration. Although 417 pages of text, it reads amazingly easy. Lots of diagrams and pictures. But dont be fooled into thinking its a fairytale - because it is packed with usable knowledge! Joel Morrow, who used to edit the BD Journal in here in America for years and years, also recommended this as a must first read. (Amazon carries this at $9.95 + $0.85 special surcharge) Biodynamic Agricutlure by Willy Schilthuis is a 1994 monograph written by one of the Netherlands finest biodynamic practitioners. She was President of the Dutch Biodynamic Association for 25 years had has a lifetime of experience. Amazingly modest in person, Willy is extraordinaryily kind and thoughtful. Barely a hundred pages long, this little booklet gives a very modern introduction to the concepts and practices of BD. A great micro-introduction. Can be read in one sitting on a Sunday afternoon between lunch and milking time. (Amazon, $9.95) Bio-Dynamic Farming Practice by Sattler & Wistinghausen Great textbook-style intro. Wistinghausen is more the academic/scientist, while Fritz (Sattler) has a lifetime of professional hands-on experience. Herbert Koepf once told me he considered Sattler one of the finest bd farmers ever. The book, published by the British BDAA is by no means a spiritual text, nor a how-to really, but does cover lots of the basic practices and concepts, while illustrations and photos make the read comfortable. Stats and data also add impressive quality to the book and makes up for what is missing in terms of spiritual qualities. PS I have not listed either Hugh Lovel's book because (although I own a copy, I have not had the time to give it more than a cursory review) nor Secrets of the Soil for a variety of reasons foremost of which has to do with my sense of needing to read it again before commenting. More later! --------------386177A82DDA-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 29 03:27:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA25591 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 03:27:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA00013; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 03:22:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA29845 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 03:18:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([203.96.104.20]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991129082107.QSMV1333179.mta3-rme@default> for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:21:07 +1300 Message-ID: <3842397D.3639@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:29:49 +1300 From: Rambler Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: [Fwd: BD Publications - A List] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------61FF240B6D54" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2486 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------61FF240B6D54 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Brian Here is another list of books put out to the list a year earlier by Allan Balliet. Happy winter time reading. Tony . --------------61FF240B6D54 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from predator.xtra.co.nz ([202.27.184.84]) by medusa.xtra.co.nz (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-52695U160000L160000S0V35) with ESMTP id AAA22684; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:48:42 +1200 Received: from loki.intrepid.net (intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by predator.xtra.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02146; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:49:35 +1200 (NZST) Received: from [206.102.68.175] (pm3shep2-68-236.intrepid.net [206.102.68.236]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA30087; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 20:45:07 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply-to: bdnow@igg.com Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 20:45:43 -0500 To: bdnow@igg.com From: BD NOW! Subject: BD Publications - A List PAM You remember you asked for the full list of publications, well here are just 57 titles from it. I have only read a few so can't vouch for most of them. Happy reading! Publications on Biodynamics BD Experimental Circle (UK). Handbook on Making the Biodynamic Preparations. British Biodynamic Agricultural Association, London. 17pp Blaser, P. and Pfeiffer, E. E. (Reprinted as booklet 1984). Biodynamic Composting of the Farm: How Much Compost Should We Use? US Biodynamic =46arming and Gardening Association. Bockermuhl, J. 1981. In Partnership with Nature. Biodynamic Literature, Rhode Island. Castelliz, K. 1980. Life to the Land. Guidelines to Biodynamic Husbandry. Landthorn Press, East Grinstead. UK. =A33.40 Childs, G. 1995. Rudolf Steiner: His Life and Work. Floris Books. =A34.99. Colquhoun, M and Ewald, A. 1996. New Eyes for Plants. Hawthorn Press. Corrin, G. 1960. Handbook on Composting and the Biodynamic preparations. British Biodynamic Agricultural Association. Reprinted 1995. =A32.95. =46yfe, A. Anthroposophical Science with Special Reference to Capillary Dynamolysis. Science Forum No. 6, London. Goethe, J. W. von (Trans. 1974). The Metamorphosis of Plants. . US Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association, Rhode Island. Grotzke, H. 1990. Biodynamic greenhouse Management. Biodynamic Literature, Kimberton, USA. Hemleben, J. 1988. Rudolf Steiner. Henry Goulden. [A biographical work which gives a clear idea of the many fields to which Steiner devoted his life.] =A37.95 Koepf, H. H. 1981. Biodynamic Sprays. Biodynamic Literature, Kimberton, USA. [Booklet] Koepf, H. H. 1990. Compost, What Is It, How Is It Made, What It Does? US Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association Koepf, H. H. 1993. Research in Biodynamic Agriculture. US Biodynamic =46arming and Gardening Association Koepf, H. H. and Thompson, P. 1990. The Principles of Biodynamic Farming. New Farmer and Grower. Spring 1990. 2pp. Koepf, H. H. and Thompson, P. 1990. The Principles of Biodynamic Farming. New Farmer and Grower. Spring 1990. 2pp Koepf, H.H. 1989. The Biodynamic Farm. Anthroposophic Press, New York. =A316= =2E Kolisko, L. Moon and Plant Growth. Kolisko, E and L. 1978. Agriculture of Tomorrow (2nd edition). Kolisko Archive Publications, Bournemouth. Konig, K. 1982. Earth and Man. Biodynamic Literature, Wyoming, R.I., USA Kranich, E. M. 1984. Planetary Influences Upon Plants: A Cosmological Botany. Biodynamic Literature. Wyoming R.I. New Zealand Biodynamic Association. 1989. Biodynamics: New Directions for =46arming and Gardening in New Zealand. Random House, Auckland Pfeiffer, E. 1983/4. Biodynamic Gardening and Farming (3 volumes). Mercury Press, Spring Valley, New York. Pfeiffer, E. and Riese, E. 1985. Grow a Garden and be Self-sufficient. Mercury Press, Spring Valley, New York. Pfeiffer, E. E. (1948, 1956). Biodynamics: Three Introductory Articles. BD =46arming and Gardening Association, Inc. Springfield, Ill. Pfeiffer, E. E. (reprinted 1983). Soil Fertility, Renewal and Preservation: Biodynamic Farming and Gardening. Lanthorn Press, East Grinstead, UK. [Particularly valuable for its research data and links with health]. Pfeiffer, E. E. 1976. Biodynamic Treatment of Fruit Trees, Berries and Shrubs. Stroudsberg. Pfeiffer, E. E. Sensitive Crystallization Process. Verlag Emil Weises Buchhandlung, Dresden. Pfeiffer, E. E. 1962. Chromatograms of Soils, Biodynamic Preparations and Their Source Materials. Biodynamics No. 62. Pfeiffer, E. E. 1988. The Earth's Face: Landscape and its Relation to the Health of the Soil. Lanthorn Press, East Grinstead, UK. Pfeiffer, E. E. Weeds and What They Tell. . US Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association [Booklet] Pfeiffer, M. W. 1990. The Agricultural Individuality: A Picture of the Human Being. US Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association Pfeiffer, E. E. 1984. Chromatography Applied to Quality Testing. BD Literature, Wyoming, Rhode Island, USA. Podolinsky, A. 1985/89. Biodynamic Agriculture: Introductory Lectures. Gavemer Foundation, Sydney. (2 volumes). Pretty, J. n. 1995. Regenerating Agriculture. Earthscan. [Discusses the need for sensitive farming methods in both developed and developing countries and the social and institutional changes necessary.] =A312.95. Remer, N. The Laws of Life in Agriculture. US Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association Riese, E. 1949. Advice on the Practical Application of the Preparations. 4pp Sabarth, E. 1968. Plant Relationships as Made Visible by Chromatography. Sattler, F and von Wistinghausen, E. 1992. Biodynamic Farming Practice. . British Biodynamic Agricultural Association. [The most comprehensive practical guide to biodynamics] =A332. Schilthuis, W. 1993. Biodynamic Agriculture. Floris Books. [This small paperback is the most straightforward introduction to biodynamics]. =A34.95 Soper, J. 1976. Studying the Agriculture Course, British Biodynamic Agricultural Association, London. Soper, J. 1983. Biodynamic Gardening. . British Biodynamic Agricultural Association, Stourbridge. Soper, J. 1996. Biodynamic Gardening. (Revised and enlarged by B. Saunders-Davies and K. Castelliz). Souvenir Press. =A310.99 Star and Furrow. Journal of the . British Biodynamic Agricultural Association, published twice a year and contains short articles on many aspects of biodynamics. Steffen, W. 1981. Methodical Investigations of Capillary Dynamolysis. Botton Science Laboratory, England. Report 1. Steiner, R. Agriculture. [A series of lectures give in 1924. First translation into English (British Biodynamic Agricultural Association, 1974) is out of print; second is available from the US Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association (1993)]. =A312.95. Steiner, R. Occult Science - An Outline. Rudolf Steiner Press. [Steiner himself recommended this work as a background to the agriculture lectures. It provides a spiritual-scientific history of the Earth]. =A38.95 Steiner, R. The Spiritual Beings in the Heavenly Bodies and in the Kingdoms of Nature. Steiner Book Centre, Vancouver. Steiner, R. The Elemental World and the Future of Mankind, Dornach, May 28, 1922 [RS lecture] Storl, W. D. (1979) Culture and Horticulture: A Philosophy of Gardening. Biodynamic Literature, Kimberton, USA. Thornton Smith, R. 1996. Biodynamics and the Control of Weeds. MS. 7pp. Thornton Smith, R. 1996. Modern Agriculture, Sustainability and Biodynamics. In: Sri Lanka Association of Geographers Proceedings. Thun, M and M. K. Working whit the Stars: A Biodynamic Sowing and Planting Calendar. Lanthorn Press., East Grinstead, UK. Published annually. =A34.35. Thun, M. 1990. Work on the Land and the Constellations. 2nd Edition. Lanthorn Press. East Grinstead, UK. [Sourcebook for those using the annual planting calendar.] =A34.50 Tompkins, P and Bird, C. 1989. Secrets of the Soil. Viking Arcana. [A fascinating compendium of evidence for the working of non-conventional influences in plant growth.] =A316. Wildfeuer, S. (Ed) Stella Natura: Planting Calendar. . US Biodynamic =46arming and Gardening Association. Zoeteman, K. 1989. Gaia-Sophia: A Framework for Ecology. Floris Books. [Covers a wide field of earth history and ecology and attempts to build bridges between natural and spiritual-scientific points of view.] =A311.99 --------------61FF240B6D54-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 29 05:07:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA26266 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 05:07:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA03910; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 05:01:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from commando.mobilixnet.dk ([195.78.82.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA03780 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 04:58:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from carol (dialin-106-189.mobilixnet.dk [212.97.199.189]) by commando.mobilixnet.dk (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA30677 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:01:10 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991129110600.00a48b80@mail.mobilixnet.dk> X-Sender: mob34587@mail.mobilixnet.dk (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:06:00 +0100 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Carol Jensen Subject: Re: Back to BD and Currency In-Reply-To: <0.c0477267.257077f5@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2487 At 18:55 26-11-1999 EST, you wrote: >Hugh > This is about downloadable books. I agree totally with this point and also with the idea of patenting, although it is expensive. Carol P.S. I do E-books! (Ad) ;-) >Selling the worlds best food is truly a great thing, but selling the secrets >of how to grow the worlds best foods is better. Teaching a man how to fish is >better than giving him a fish. By selling your hard earned discoveries you >are getting financial compensation for those years of toil and you are >allowing the information that your individual experiance has produced to be >utilized by other human beings. By sitting on discoveries you are running >the risk of others eventually making the same or very similar discoveries >years later who may present the ideas publically in a way less to your liking >than if you had done it yourself. In America many more people are familiar >with Rodales work than Steiners. > >If the idea of excessive profits is bothersome decide how much financial >compensation is appropriate for your efforts and donate any excess to a >worthy cause. Buckminster Fuller patented all his ideas so they would be both >available to mankind and recorded in a chronological way to serve as a >reference point. The market place is just another tool and just as with any >tool it is it's abuse that's dangerous. To not use a tool at the appropriate >time could be considered a form of abuse. > >An idea; offer your ideas in the form of downloadable books over the net, >charge folks to download them and send a few emailed copies to institutions >and people that you admire. > >Best Regards >RB > > -------------------------------------------------------- Free ezine tells you how to start in Internet Marketing, and WHY the marketing gurus are correct! mailto:jorna@mobilixnet.dk?Subject=subscribe -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 29 08:21:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27956 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11909; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:16:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA11643 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:12:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.53] (r-66.180.alltel.net [166.102.66.180]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id HAA13422 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:15:48 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991129110600.00a48b80@mail.mobilixnet.dk> References: <0.c0477267.257077f5@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:18:30 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Back to BD and Currency Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2488 >At 18:55 26-11-1999 EST, you wrote: >>Hugh >> >This is about downloadable books. I agree totally with this point and also >with the idea of patenting, although it is expensive. > >Carol > >P.S. I do E-books! (Ad) ;-) Dear Carol, I don't even know what a downloadable book is, let alone how to sell one. You don't suppose you could bring me up to speed? Hugh > > > >>Selling the worlds best food is truly a great thing, but selling the secrets >>of how to grow the worlds best foods is better. Teaching a man how to >>fish is >>better than giving him a fish. By selling your hard earned discoveries you >>are getting financial compensation for those years of toil and you are >>allowing the information that your individual experiance has produced to be >>utilized by other human beings. By sitting on discoveries you are running >>the risk of others eventually making the same or very similar discoveries >>years later who may present the ideas publically in a way less to your >>liking >>than if you had done it yourself. In America many more people are familiar >>with Rodales work than Steiners. >> >>If the idea of excessive profits is bothersome decide how much financial >>compensation is appropriate for your efforts and donate any excess to a >>worthy cause. Buckminster Fuller patented all his ideas so they would be >>both >>available to mankind and recorded in a chronological way to serve as a >>reference point. The market place is just another tool and just as with any >>tool it is it's abuse that's dangerous. To not use a tool at the appropriate >>time could be considered a form of abuse. >> >>An idea; offer your ideas in the form of downloadable books over the net, >>charge folks to download them and send a few emailed copies to institutions >>and people that you admire. >> >>Best Regards >>RB >> >> >-------------------------------------------------------- >Free ezine tells you how to start in Internet Marketing, >and WHY the marketing gurus are correct! >mailto:jorna@mobilixnet.dk?Subject=subscribe >-------------------------------------------------------- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 29 10:01:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29682 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:01:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA20231; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:56:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx.webound.com (root@mx.webound.com [216.90.136.28]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA20153 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:56:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [216.90.139.40] (gvl139-40.dial.webound.com [216.90.139.40]) by mx.webound.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/jsb) with ESMTP id IAA98972 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:59:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:59:11 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: genegerue@pop.webound.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19991129110600.00a48b80@mail.mobilixnet.dk> <0.c0477267.257077f5@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Gene GeRue Subject: Re: Back to BD and Currency Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2489 Hugh wrote: >I don't even know what a downloadable book is, let alone how to sell one. >You don't suppose you could bring me up to speed? The techno-business of publishing books electronically and making them downloadable to readers is growing fast. Some predict the demise of paper books. To get up to speed on what's happening in the e-book world, subscribe to The RunningRiver Reader: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION: TO SUBSCRIBE (free): send blank e-mail to mailto:subscribereader@runningriver.com TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send blank e-mail to mailto:unsubreader@runningriver.com Archived issues--with photographs--can be found, usually the day following publication, at ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 29 11:28:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01603 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:28:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29321; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:23:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail3.teleport.com (mail3.teleport.com [192.108.254.31]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28904 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:19:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 18584 invoked from network); 29 Nov 1999 16:21:43 -0000 Received: from i48-46-42.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO new99) (216.26.9.106) by mail3.teleport.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 1999 16:21:43 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991126091539.009011d0@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:15:39 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Re: Preps vs Pfeiffer BD Compost Starter In-Reply-To: <0.f95a9e8c.256ff155@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2490 At 09:21 AM 11/26/99 EST, Dan wrote: > >Who else has had experience with Pfeiffer BD compost starter? For what its worth, I use Pfeiffer starter. My situation is that of a small-scale suburban gardener. I dont have access to manure and therefore cant do large compost piles with the appropriate BD preps. Instead, I am composting small amounts of leaves, grass cippings etc (I gather from my meighbors too). I can apply the Pfieffer starter in small amounts as I accumulate materials. I have observed that it makes a difference -- with it, the compost smells like cow manure. Does the compost have more formative force? I wish I knew how to judge. Does it help my garden? Yes, surely. But I also observed the best garden vigor (glowing greenness) the year I was able to bring in some cow manure and compost that. So I dont think I have yet found the effective substitue to use in a suburban situation. ==================== David Robison Stellar Processes 1033 SW Yamhill Suite 405 Portland, OR 97205 (503) 827-8336 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 29 12:04:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02476 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:04:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03656; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:00:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03348 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:57:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.20] (pm3shep1-163-20.intrepid.net [209.190.163.20]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA15098 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:00:37 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:00:44 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: volcanic ash Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2491 From: Liz516@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 22:18:52 EST Subject: volcanic ash To: bdnow@igg.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Status: U Please send me any information with farming with volcanic ash. For a high school project. Send to Liz516@aol.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 29 17:46:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09924 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:46:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA11953; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:42:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.mcn.org (mail.mcn.org [204.189.12.25]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09227 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:18:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from 63.193.13.88 (ha-2e-men-p2-m04.mcn.org [63.193.13.88]) by mail.mcn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA11745 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:21:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38428E5F.2FA1@mcn.org> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:31:59 +0000 From: Kate Clarke Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Foxglove Farm (707) 937-4116 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: New Paradigm for Farm Ownership References: <1A7524CE7CFFB428852568320004EB9B.0000000000000000@webcity> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2492 Dear Jane and BD Family, I seldom have time between the Farm {Foxglove Farm, and Earth Touching Institute Comptche, Ca.} to do more than press delete when dealing with all this info. I have really learned alot so far from many, thanks. I am now on my intentional way to ownership of this five acer farm. Organic/Biodynamic for 14 years it is sacred ground! Charles Martin ,the previous farmercalled today from Willits, Ca. to alert me to a possible threat of contamination by logging pratices from a neighbor up hill, the struggle never ends to protect. To own, that is so difficult here. I am paying 1,475.00 monthly which includs my payment to the Equity Trust folks for 15 k which all went towards a 40k down in May. I balance Farm, Family and my other business of Landscape Design and at 45 I know this pace is dated. I am first of all a farmer. In what was a cold,grey summer in Northerm Ca. My harvest of 1,600+ all Heirloom Tomatoes was enjoyed by so many. Lu"s Kitchen, a vegan organic resturant in the village of Mendocino was just overjoyed because organically grown does not always mean good tasting but Biodynamic or this magic produced the best!! I am swamped by debt. I have done alot of thinking to try to help myself and others out of this negative money flow without 1,Leaving the Farm, 2. Prices for produce, so high, is denies access to everyone. I know I can do it. I have looked at My CSA in different terms for the new season so I can include many more, I am turning an outbuilding into a Day Care/Pre School with programs on the weekend to bring families to the farm to learn new ways of healthy cooking and to reinvent the joys of what is so basic and yet appears lost to many. GOOD FOOD ! I am creating a non profit institute to facilitate the small farm as a community center. I invite elderly and encourage caregivers in my area to bring all to the farm. I am writting a program as a model foran enviormental ed, program for schools and nutrition. All this is just a beginning. WE can do it by taking a new look at value added products.Invesigate what you community needs. Feel free to call me 707 9374116 West coast time. Always keep the vision of a better world in you mind,never give up! Kate Clark From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 29 17:46:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09931 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:46:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA11892; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (web1.vphos.net [207.102.129.200]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06082 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:49:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.85]) by web1.vphos.net ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:52:36 -0800 Message-ID: <005b01bf3ab4$0e9a9800$55cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: Subject: "Scale" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:47:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2493 Bruce: I've got 3,000 words for you. 2,000 is "Enough is Enough: the Economics of Scale at Aurora Farm" and 1000 is an opinion piece on the BD Seed Initiative...which could run as a sidebar or as a separate piece up front..."on my mind" or somesuch. They come as a package, however. No fair taking the first and telling me you can't use the second! Lemme know when you want to see 'em. W From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 29 17:47:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09941 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:47:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA12020; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09313 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:19:04 -0500 (EST) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id h.0.353f673c (4568) for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:21:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.353f673c.25745665@aol.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:21:25 EST Subject: looking for Steven To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2494 Dear Friends, Who can tell me how and where to get in touch with Steven McFadden? re his wonderful article, A Mystery Thinly Veiled. Thanks for your help. Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 29 17:55:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10106 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:55:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13275; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:51:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA12621 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:47:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-164-252-99.s353.tnt5.atn.pa.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.252.99]) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11sZcq-0006dP-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:50:31 -0500 X-Sender: patters@pop.erols.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991126091539.009011d0@mail.teleport.com> References: <0.f95a9e8c.256ff155@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:51:55 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Ted Patterson Subject: Re: Preps vs Pfeiffer BD Compost Starter Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2495 At 9:15 AM -0800 11/26/99, Dave Robison wrote: >For what its worth, I use Pfeiffer starter. My situation is that of a >small-scale suburban gardener. [snip].... >Does it help my garden? Yes, surely. But I also observed the best garden >vigor (glowing greenness) the year I was able to bring in some cow manure >and compost that. So I dont think I have yet found the effective substitue >to use in a suburban situation. How about worm-worked compost? Vermicompost? Any comparision? Thanks. -Ted From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 29 18:04:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10271 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:04:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14293; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:00:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14245 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:00:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.166] (pm3shep4-163-166.intrepid.net [209.190.163.166]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA29221 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:03:20 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0.353f673c.25745665@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:01:16 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: looking for Steven Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2496 >Dear Friends, >Who can tell me how and where to get in touch with Steven McFadden? >re his wonderful article, A Mystery Thinly Veiled. >Thanks for your help. >Christine Dear Christine - Steve still read BD Now! when he gets an opportunity. Where did you see his article? -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 29 18:09:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10380 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:09:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14732; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:05:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14253 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.166] (pm3shep4-163-166.intrepid.net [209.190.163.166]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA29231 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:03:24 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <005b01bf3ab4$0e9a9800$55cb6cce@netacc.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:04:44 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: "Scale" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2497 >Bruce: > >I've got 3,000 words for you. 2,000 is "Enough is Enough: the Economics of >Scale at Aurora Farm" and 1000 is an opinion piece on the BD Seed >Initiative...which could run as a sidebar or as a separate piece up >front..."on my mind" or somesuch. They come as a package, however. No fair >taking the first and telling me you can't use the second! Lemme know when >you want to see 'em. > >W Woody - I don't know if you were off-line then, but Bruce recently expressed a personal preference for having people write to him directly about the BD Journal and that they do not post journal related matters to BD Now! Just my two-cents. Otherwise, I'll look forward to seeing the article sometime in the future. Thanks -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 29 19:37:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA11705 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:37:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA23885; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:32:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (popper1.vphos.net [207.102.129.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA23203 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:28:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.104]) by popper1.vphos.net ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:31:40 -0800 Message-ID: <001f01bf3aca$3f536ce0$66cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: Subject: Re: "Scale" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:31:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2498 Allan: A slip of the keyboard...a lapse of consciousness. The post was meant to go personally to Bruce, as editor of BIODYNAMICS, not to be broadcast to the List. My apologies... Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 3:04 PM Subject: Re: "Scale" > >Bruce: > > > >I've got 3,000 words for you. 2,000 is "Enough is Enough: the Economics of > >Scale at Aurora Farm" and 1000 is an opinion piece on the BD Seed > >Initiative...which could run as a sidebar or as a separate piece up > >front..."on my mind" or somesuch. They come as a package, however. No fair > >taking the first and telling me you can't use the second! Lemme know when > >you want to see 'em. > > > >W > > Woody - > > I don't know if you were off-line then, but Bruce recently expressed a > personal preference for having people write to him directly about the BD > Journal and that they do not post journal related matters to BD Now! > > Just my two-cents. Otherwise, I'll look forward to seeing the article > sometime in the future. > > Thanks > > -Allan > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Nov 29 21:04:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12868 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:04:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04376; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:59:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03769 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:55:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ap.net (D-19.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.20]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27572 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:58:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38432EF2.64958AC1@ap.net> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:57:07 -0800 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Potentizing of the Preparations. (an Introduction) References: <004d01bf3a23$c9100580$56431ccb@cherylke> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2499 Hello Cheryl: >From the Non-Steinerian school of homeopathy, aka Samual Hanemann, you are dealing wholly with subtle energies at 60x, there isn't a molecule of the original substance left at this level of dilution. Although traditional homeopathy deals only with humans, it often contains a psychological picture in the description of a remedy's action that might prove useful if your intuition could characterize the subtle qualities of the land you intend to treat. Of course, this will only be of assistance for "proven" single remedies within the current pharmacopeia [3000 remedies.]. If you are truly going to use "high" potencies [over 100x], you might consider contacting the pharmacist at Boericke and Tafel in Santa Rosa, California [ area code 707]. they are a manufacturing homeopathic pharmacy and if you provide the substance to be potentized and explain that it is for agricultural use, they could make up a batch for you. Prices for custom potencies were fairly reasonable in the past but I haven't had this done for at least five years. Cheers :o) , davidi/whirlderv@ap.net Cheryl Kemp wrote: > Dear Jim, > Thank you for that amazing collation of material re potentisation. I have > one question that was not answered in all that other information. At what > level are we working in when we use 60x potency? > The reason that I ask is that recently one of our farmers used 6x potency > of Bower Bird and Fruit Bat peppers on their BD farm and it worked so well, > that their next door neighbours asked that they spray their orchard too. As > the lady making the peppers is also a dowser, she checked the potency > required and found that the neighbours required 60x potency. From previous > work, we have found that the lower potencies do not work on land that has > not received the benefit of the BD preparations, particularly the 502-507. > But this higher potency worked on the unprepped land. One really starts to > appreciate the importance of the BD preparations in connecting the land to > the cosmos when this sort of thing comes up, so I am wondering, is it a > spiritual level that we are working at for 60x or karmic, and is it drawing > on energies to the detriment of others, or not? > I appreciate the fact that maybe we shouldn't use peppers on land where the > people have not made the effort to use BD before, but sometimes this can be > the turning point for them to now start to make changes. > Thanks Jim for your time, > Cheryl Kemp > Education & News Leaf Editor > Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. > of Australia Inc. > P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) > 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) > Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 > email bio@midcoast.com.au > -----Original Message----- > From: eaccess > To: BDNow > Date: Sunday, 28 November 1999 1:40 pm > Subject: Potentizing of the Preparations. (an Introduction) > > >Dear List. > > > >The Primary reference work on this subject is "Agriculture of Tomorrow" > >by E. Kolisko and L. Kolisko. First published in about 1939 and more > >recently, a second edition in 1978,. > > > >Included in this book are results of experiments done with Potentizing > >of the Biodynamic Preparations. Part three of the book, (p. 219 in the > >first, p. 159 in the second edition) deals with "Rudolf Steiner's > >indications for a renewal of Agriculture" > > > >Experiments were done from the first to the 60th potency. > > > >To quote directly from the introduction to Chapter 1 of Part Two > >"Smallest Entities in Agriculture" > > > >"----What does "potentize" mean? Exactly what the word itself > >expresses. In potentizing a substance, we increase its effectiveness. > >We make the substance more potent. The strange thing about > >potentizing is, that we have to reduce the amount of the substance > >which we want to make more potent. In everyday life we are accustomed > >to think: if we want to make something more effective, we have to take > >a bigger quantity. For instance, if we want to make coffee sweeter, we > >take a second teaspoonful of sugar (provided we have it!). In > >homeopathy we are told just the opposite thing. If we want a stronger > >action from a certain remedy, we have to potentize it, that means to > >dilute it in water or alcohol, again and again, in a rhythmical way. > > > >That is the first and most important thing we have to learn: to > >discriminate between matter and force. Matter can act in two different > >ways: as matter, or as the specific force behind the matter. In > >everyday life we ask only for matter, for quantity, and we do not even > >stop to think, that there is something like a force which is active in > >every kind of matter. Sugar is not only sweet, - that is one quality of > >sugar we discover by means of our rather coarse sense of taste. Besides > >being sweet, sugar has many other qualities we cannot taste, but our > >organism realizes them; only we are not aware of everything that sugar > >does in our organism. > > > >Now we must raise another important question: What do we want in > >reality? The substance itself, or the inner quality of the substance? > >"........... end quote. > > > > > > > >The techniques of Potentizing have been previously posted on this site, > >there is no need to go into the details again, however some additional > >references from Rudolf Steiner may be useful, in particular an > >understanding of how various Homeopathic potencies work in Man ( from a > >Medical point of view.) > >>From understanding these workings in Man as an "Individuality" we might > >then try to understand how to apply similar concepts- if indeed they do > >apply - to the "Agricultural Individuality" since it is there that the > >Biodynamic Preparations work. > > > >IN MAN > > > >Physical body, Etheric Body, Astral Body and > >Ego. (1) > > > > > >the interactions between these four "Bodies" gives his threefold > >nature. > > > >i.e. > >between his Physical Body and Etheric Body - Thinking > > > >between his Etheric Body and his Astral Body - Feeling > > > >between his Astral Body and his Ego - > >Willing. (2) > > > >this threefolding of mans organism is expressed through his > >Nerve-sense system, his Rythmic system and his Metabolic System and > >targeted generally by the potencies as follows: > > > >Lower potencies D0 - 6 work on the metabolic system > > > >Middle potencies D8 - 15 work on the rhythmic system > > > >Higher potencies D20 - 30 work on the nervous system. (3) > > > > > > > >Without going into the more specialised ways of applying potencies from > >the Animal, mineral or vegetable kingdoms and the different ways of > >applying them, lets look at the Biodynamic Compost Preparations > >(excluding for the moment the Cow Horn Preparations of Manure and > >Silica.) and remembering that Steiner indicated (4) that they can be > >added to Liquid Manure, and not only Compost or Farmyard-manure. - he > >did not indicate that the 500 and 501 could be used this way. > > > >The Preparations fall into two Sets:- A focus for the working of two > >groups of "Entities" in Nature > > > >The first set of Dandelion (warmth ether) , Oak Bark (light ether) and > >Valerian (tone ether) > >Clay (life ether) might now be accepted as part of this set. > >and > >the second set of Nettle, Chamomile and Yarrow. -( all to do with the > >working of Nitrogen.) > > > >All except Clay are originally Plant Materials, but in the case of > >Dandelion, Oak Bark, Chamomile and Yarrow, Animal parts are used in > >their preparation, and when exposed to the cycle of the year, > >A Rhythm in Time plus their exposure to the animal influences, has > >already in a sense "activated " the original plant materials, they > >assume a different influence, and this can be readily seen from > >Kolisko's work. > > > >Back to Kolisko:- > > > >Dandelion- is the subject of Chapter IV Part III and we note that the > >prepared dandelion increased the weight of the experimental plants > >considerably, with the 26th Potency giving the maximum leaf and for > >the root, maximum at 13th potency. > > > >Oak Bark- is the subject of Chapter III Part III and we note once > >again the difference between the prepared Oak Bark and the control, the > >first leaf > >maximum at the 5th Potency, the second at the 47th and the third at the > >53rd. > >The root growth had a maximum at the 50th and 59th Potencies. > >Once again the weight of the dried plants was increased with the > >preparation. > > > >Valerian - is the subject in Chapter VIII Part III - this > >preparation does not have to be especially prepared over a yearly > >cycle, however Steiner indicated "Dilute the extract very highly" - > >Kolisko's experiments showed a clear graph in which for the leaves, the > >8th potency was the first maximum, and they recommended that this be > >the one used for the compost or manure. The root maximum occurred at the > >6th potency. However the maximum weight occurred at the 23rd and 47th > >potency. > > > >So we can see from these experimental results, if these preparations > >are potentised, they can be "Tailored" to produce either leaf or root > >growth in a very remarkable way. That is, we can influence the etheric > >working of the plant into the "Agricultural Individuality" either above > >ground or below ground. > > > >Now to Nettle. > >The subject of Chapter VII, Part III, the most noticeable difference > >is that the roots are considerably improved, with three Maxima at 8th, > >42nd , and 58th potencies. > >The maximum leaf at 46th potency. In general, the weight of the plant > >was increased by twice and sometimes even more. > > > >For Chamomile > >The subject of Chapter V Part III, Once again the preparation gave > >plants with more weight, leaf maximum first occurred at the 4th potency, > >second at 32nd, third at 49th. The roots having maximum growth at 35th > >and 51st potencies. > > > >and Yarrow > >Chapter VI, Part III, here the Kolisko's used preparations of > >different ages, and the results are a little more complex, however, the > >highest potencies enabled the plants to put on weight, the maximum > >weight at the 20th potency and a second at 48th and 54th. The Graph > >being quite markedly divided into two periods. > >The roots had more distinct maximum and minimum peaks, in the first > >period, the 6th and 19th potencies having the maximum effect, in the > >second period one maximum at the 49th potency. > > > > > >A common factor in all the above experiments is the increase in dry > >weight of the plants grown with the preparations. > > > >Those persons who would like the preparations to work in a more > >specialised way, either to enhance leaf or root for any purpose, when > >Manureing, will find it easy to apply the results obtained above, by > >making up a special manure with the specific potentised preparations > >required for the result desired. > > > >As a guideline to the potencies to be used, there may or may not be a > >connection, but perhaps keeping in mind that the "Agricultural > >Individuality" has the "metabolic" system above the ground and the > >"nerve sense" system below ground . There have been previous discussions > >about the nature of the "Agricultural Individuality" on this list. > > > > > >Back to Steiner: > > > >referring to Kolisko's work he says, > >"You can see the exact curves worked out, showing how the forces of > >growth rise and fall; you can see how the curve must be drawn for > >smaller dilutions and how for greater ones. You can see how certain > >dilutions produce the minimum while other dilutions produce the maximum > >of growth..... > >the curve then drops back to the minimum to rise again to the maximum. > >Thus, in the extremely conscientious drawing of these curves we obtain > >a direct insight into a rhythm working in all matter, a rhythm which > >expresses the Spiritual in all matter. In man we pass from the > >metabolic system to the rhythmic system; and we can also discover the > >rhythmic system in nature in a quite exact scientific way." and > >further........." In future, if this result of research is valued > >aright, investigations will not merely be made along the lines of scale > >and measure, the laws of nature will not merely be investigated > >atomically, but it will be recognised that in all matter a rhythm can > >be discovered, and that the rhythm in the occurrences of nature > >reproduce the Rhythm of the Cosmos. (5) > > > > > >1. "At the The Gates of Spiritual Science" Rudolf Steiner. Lecture 1 > >- The Being of Man. 22 August 1906 - Rudolf Steiner press. 1986. > > > >2. "Cosmosophy" Vol. 1 - Rudolf Steiner - Lecture 4, Oct.1st. 1921. > >Anthroposophic Press 1985. > > > >3. The Anthroposophical Approach to Medicine, Volume 2 - Husemann/Wolff > >P. 75. > > > >4. "Agriculture" Rudolf Steiner P.100 (second edition) > > > >5. "The Evolution of the World and of Humanity" Rudolf Steiner - > >Lecture 12. p. 217 etc. 1926 edition.Anthroposophical Publishing > >Company. > > > > > >JT. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 30 01:19:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA16053 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 01:19:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA29225; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 01:14:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA29062 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 01:12:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d155.infoserve.net [199.175.157.155]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA22819 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:17:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000a01bf3afa$dea42e80$9b9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF / Fw: GEN11-28DrPusztai Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:19:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2500 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Sunday, November 28, 1999 7:09 PM Subject: GEN11-28DrPusztai >Here are comments by Dr. Arpad Pusztai, the Scottish scientists who was >hassled after he went public about his research about rats showing internal >damage after eating genetically engineered potatoes. Dr. Pusztai's >research was published in Lancet, though there was tremendous pressure >against him. Here is the report > >............. > >http://plab.ku.dk/tcbh/PusztaiPusztai.htm > >Genetically Manipulated Plants Used for Food - Arpad Pusztai writes about >what happened around the Lancet article > > A commentary by Arpad Pusztai, made available on the internet by Thorkild >C. Bøg-Hansen, Senior Associate Professor, University of Copenhagen, >Denmark. November 23, 1999 > >To remind you what happened around our Lancet article. > >According to my contract with the Rowett, my former employer, I have to >send my papers to the Director, Dr Peter Morgan, for "scrutiny" as Queen's >Council advised me. What this means is that because of Pillip James' [the >Rowett's previous Director] carelessly drafted letters of 16 & 19 February >99, I am no longer required to submit my drafts of scientific papers for >his approval before I can submit them to any scientific journal for >publication. > >However, I am still under a legal obligation to show the Director any paper >for his "examination" but not for editing and changing them. This I have >to do sometimes between submission and actual publication. This was >precisely what happened with the Lancet paper whose galley proofs were sent >to Dr Morgan at the end of September when we thought that the paper would >in fact be published by 1 October. For a number of technical reasons the >paper was in fact published on 15 October that gave two weeks for the >"rubbishing brigade" to do their job. Dr Morgan advised me in his letter >that > >1/. I was still in their view under an obligation to send my drafts to him >before submission to a journal and that the Rowett had the right to change >anything in it even though they could not possibly do this with these >galley proofs and > >2/. he sent the galley proofs to a number of people, the Scottish Office, >scientists in >the pay of the Scottish Office who oppose our work and, obviously, to the >Royal Society (RS). > >The results, the threats to the Lancet Editor and our villification by the >RS and other top establishment figures in the newspapers, BBC and in >letters to the Editor in the Lancet are now well-known and I am not going >to deal with them here. > >Although most of the attacks on us were very personal and the language >sometimes touching the level of the gutter, I am not willing to join in >such a debate debasing science. However, I shall want to summarize the >scientific, quasi-scientific and misinformed criticisms on our paper, which >appeared mainly in letters to Editor in the Lancet and also some >magazine/newspaper articles. I shall also try to summarize our responses >to these which appeared mainly in the 13 November issue of the Lancet. > >Even before our article appeared in the Lancet on 15 October, Prof. >Pickett, one of the six referees of our paper who apparently opposed its >publication, broke the over 200 year gentleman's-convention of refereeing >and gave interviews to the press in which he stated his opposition to the >paper in a few not-so-gentlemanly sentences. However, his main "scientific >message" was that our results were uninterpretable because we "changed >horses in mid-stream", meaning that we changed the diets of the rats from >GM-potatoes to controls diets. We have but two interpretations of this >criticism: either Prof. Pickett did not read the paper he was supposed to >have refereed or he deliberately misinformed the reporter. In either >case, he was not the right person to referee our paper. > >Sir Aaron Klug, the President of the RS criticised our paper and said that >it would not have been accepted by the RS for publication because we did >not have low-protein control diets in our experiment. Apart from the fact >that the RS does not publish peer-reviewed scientific papers, his comments >suggested that he may not have read our paper in which it is clearly said >that all diets (including control diets) contained the same amount of >protein and were iso-energetic. > >In the Lancet letters mainly two peoples' comments were scientifically >worthy of reply. > >In the invited commentary letter Kuiper et al (13 October) addressed two >main issues: The first one concerned the specific criticisms of our paper >and secondly they dealt with the issue whether there are adequate methods >for the testing of the safety of GM-foods and whether this is necessary at >all. > >Concerning the specific criticisms of our paper and our replies could be >summarized as follows: > >1. Although we suggested that the changes in gut structure and metabolism >reported in the paper were due to compositional changes in the potato on >genetic modification, we did not report these changes. > >- Clearly, in a short research letter this was not permitted by the >journal. However, Kuiper et al have a copy of the two Rowett internal >reports in the public domain which were released by the Rowett on the >internet against my expressed wishes (and not by me as Kuiper et al say) >with the results of extensive analyses. He could have checked up on these >showing that the two GM-potato lines were not substantially equivalent in >composition with the parent line or with each other. All the same, and >most importantly, the GM-line 71 used for the Lancet experiment had the >same protein content as the parent line and therefore all diets (including >the controls) were iso-proteinic and iso-energetic. > >2. The diets were protein-deficient, contained only 6% protein and >therefore the rats were "starved". > >- It is true that 6% protein is just over half of the protein content of >the optimal rat diet. However, in a short-term (10 day) experiment the >rats can cope with that and in any case the control diets had the same low >protein content and the results were therefore comparable. In contrast, >Kuiper et al say that low protein diets impair rat metabolism and therefore >invalidate our results. Unfortunately, as their reference shows this >conclusion is more likely to be valid only for rats kept on protein-free >diet and food restriction. Starvation is an emotive and meaningless term >in respect >of our experiment because despite the low protein content of the diet the >rats were in fact growing, albeit less slowly than on optimal diets. > >3. Our results are probably due to the presence of poorly digestible >carbohydrates in our GM-potato diets. > > - All our diets, including control diets contained the same poorly >digestible raw potato starch. Moreover, some of the changes in gut >parameters also occured in rats fed diets containing boiled GM-potatoes >when compared to non-GM boiled >potato diets and these contained no poorly digestible raw potato starches. > >4. Our experiments were incomplete, contained too few animals per group >and there was no optimal control group, necessary to discern any >toxicological significance. > >- Our study was not a toxicological but a nutritional study. Kuiper et al >confuse these two different types of evaluation experiments. In our >experiments there were six rats per group. This was more than adequate in >comparison with the four or five rats per group usually used in nutritional >experiments and described in top nutritional journals. I have published at >least 40 such papers of nutritional evaluation of rat diets in the past 20 >or so years. In any case, toxicological LD50-type experiments are only >permitted in exceptional cases in the UK. > >5. We had no "empty vector" (no GNA gene but all other genes in the >vector) containing potatoes as controls. > >- True, this potato was created at Durham at my request but our work was >stopped before we could test these. > >The general comments of Kuiper et al which refer to the adequacy of the >testing of GM-food: > >1. Investigation of the gene product's role should not be confined to >only its effect on the gastrointestinal tract. > >- Although they hold up as an example of [this] some work carried out in >Kuiper's lab that was published as a book Chapter (and not peer-reviewed!) >this was somewhat disingenious on their part because the work (Bt toxin >from GM-tomatoes) was not carried out with the gene product isolated from >the GM-plant as it should have been but was done with an E. coli >recombinant. As these two are quite different, conclusions drawn from >recombinant work cannot be accepted as valid. Incidentally, all biotech >companies do the same according to their submitted evidence to the >regulatory authorities. > >All the same, we wholeheartedly endorse Kuiper's views that ALL GM-PRODUCTS >SHOULD BE FULLY TESTED FOR THEIR BIOLOGICAL EFFECTS ON ANIMALS AND THEN >HUMAN VOLUNTEERS! However, such studies have so far only been carried out >by us at the Rowett on GM-potatoes and GM-peas and only with rats but their >results have been published! > >2. All presently accepted GM-crops, GM-soya, GM-maize, etc have been >adequately tested. > >- This is a really strange statement because no such studies, except one >on round up-ready-soya in 1996, can be found in the scientific literature. >In fact, what is in the literature (even in the above Monsanto paper) shows >that GM-soya is compositionally different from non-GM-soya. I am afraid, >as scientists we need more published evidence before we can accept the >GM-foods already on the market are adequately tested. > >3. Safety testing will have to be adjusted for the "second generation" of >GM-food plants. > >- This is a baffling statement. What is the difference between the need >to test the first and second generation of GM-food? Why is it that it is >only the second generation of GM-food that needs to undergo "extensive >toxicological and nutritional (for the first time that this is demanded by >someone high up in the EU authorities) testing"? > >We do not argue against this because it is a great advance on Kuiper et >al's previous stance but we need to stress that this statement should >equally apply to the first generation! We have no objections to the >incorporation into the testing procedures his proposed more sophisticated >analytical testing methods (microarray technology, mRNA fingerprinting, >proteomics, etc) but find their logic somewhat inconsequentional when they >say that "depending on these studies, further toxicological and nutritional >studies may be needed". > >This means in plain language that they first propose to carry out the >analytical testing for some toxicant or allergen in the GM-crop but without >knowing if they are there at all. How can you find something that you do >not know what to look for and whether it is there. Surely, one does not >want to waste time and precious resources by performing a lot of >sophisticated analytical tests when in fact the GM-food may not show any >signs of harming animals or humans. It is more logical that after some >crude analyses (protein, starch oil) needed for formulating diets for >animal testing, nutritional and toxicological evaluations are carried out >first and if these indicate problems with the GM-food, we ought to find >what is the cause(s) for them. > >However, considering everything Kuiper et al's commentary is a good step >forward in the safety testing of GM-food. Now we only want to establish >who is doing the testing, where is it going to be done and who is going to >pay for it? It is gratifying to know that someone like Kuiper to whom >funds for such testing have already been allocated by the EU is a >passionate advocate for the biological testing of at least the second >generation of GM-crops. Hopefully, and particularly if the first >generation is also included in his testing programme, the EU consumers will >reap the benefits, and if all these studies will be as transparently >presented to the scientific community (and consumers!) as promised by him >in the last sentence of his Lancet commentary. > >Allan Mowat in his letter to the Lancet (15 November) also makes a number >of points which, together with our replies, are dealt with in the >following: > >1. Mowat raises a technical point of doubts about the role of tissue >fixation and its potential to create problems and urges extreme caution in >the interpretation of our results of gut histology, particularly as the >crypt depths reported in our paper are below (about 60 um) what is usually >found by others. > >- He is right, the values found with these potato diets are below of that >found in well-fed normal rats. However, Mowat does not appreciate that as >the potato lectin is antimitogenic it causes a reduction in crypt size and >this is re-inforced by the low protein content of all the diets. It is the >more remarkable therefore that even in the presence of such factors the >GM-potato diet dramatically and significantly increases crypt depth to >about 90 um. In any case, we have something like well over ten years of >experience in carrying out these measurements on our rats kept on a great >variety of different diets and therefore we are in a unique situation to >make authorative statements on comparative and absolute values of crypt >depth. > >2. Mowat raises another technical point concerning IEL (intraepithelial >lymphocyte infiltration) counts in our jejunal sections. According to him, >increased IEL is a sure sign of immunologically-mediated damage to the gut >induced by the use of lectins and not due to exposure to GM-potatoes. In >any case, GNA as lectin could cause this. > >- We did not give IEL counts in the gut of rats fed on GNA-spiked potato >diets for the simple reason that in our previous studies no lymphocyte >infiltration was observed even with a 1000-fold excess of GNA in the diet. >Moreover, as published by us even a 1000-fold excess of PHA, kidney bean >lectin, caused no significant IEL increase in the gut. > >3. Our data do not confirm that the crypt hyperplasia observed by us in >GM-potato diets was due to genetic modification in the absence of data on >the increase in mitotic counts. It is possible that the changes are >secondary to lectin-induced villus damage. > >- First, there is no villus damage! Second, it is true that mitotic >counts are not given in the paper but these will be included in a second >paper which is in preparation. However, we can confirm that only the >GM-potato diets increased mitotic counts and no such increase was observed >with the parent potato diets, with or without spiking with GNA. > >There was a similar comment made by FitzGerald et al about the need for the >measurement of mitotic counts in the same issue of the Lancet. > >Our answer is of course the same as above. > >Peter Lachmann's criticisms in the same issue of the Lancet were hostile >but as they touched on scientific issues we decided to deal with them: > >Points no. 1 & 2 have already been answered above. > >3. Were the assays done blind on coded samples? > >- Yes, they were. > >4. Lachmann states that as the differences in gut structure between rats >fed GM and non-GM diets may not be pathological, they can be dismissed. > >- This just shows that Lachmann does not understand the issue. All >GM-foodstuffs so far accepted have been passed on the basis that they were >substantially equivalent to their non-GM counterparts. > >Thus, we do NOT have to prove pathological differences but only that the >differences are significant. It is up to the companies and the regulatory >authorities to show whether the changes are pathological. In any case, >with Lachmann's background in medicine he ought to have appreciated that >stimulation of gut growth in the young is at the expense of body growth >(which is potentially harmful) as intestinal turnover uses up somewhere >between 30-40% of the dietary intake of proteins. In the colon it is >potentially even more serious because crypt cell proliferation in the colon >may aid the development of tumours, and you cannot have anything more >pathological than that. > >5. His final point is that we have made no correction for "data dredging" >in our statistical analysis. > >- We did not have to correct for data dredging because we did do no such >thing. The statistical methods of multivariate analysis of significance, >one-way ANOVA, paired t-tests and Tukey's tests are all described in our >Table 1. These analyses have been seen and approved by independent >statisticians, including one of the referees of our paper. We are more >likely to accept the advice of these independent people than that of >Lachmann with his partizan views and of rather unproven statistical >expertise. > >In our final analysis, most of the comments by Kuiper et al and Mowat had >legitimate scientific basis and were not personal. This is something that >cannot be said of most of the others. We think that overall the Lancet >initiative was helpful for both science and consumers by moving away from >personal attacks and misinformation to a valid scientific debate on the >safety testing of GM-foodstuffs. Let us hope that some of the conclusions >will pass into practice and be accepted by the EU and all the regulatory >authorities whose job was in the first place to start up this process but >did not do so. > >[for the Lancet report go to: >http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=10533866&form=6&db= m&Dop >t=b] > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 30 01:23:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA16096 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 01:23:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA29549; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 01:18:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA29154 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 01:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d155.infoserve.net [199.175.157.155]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA22935 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:18:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002501bf3afb$12a886e0$9b9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF / Fw: GEN11-29 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:21:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2501 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 9:51 AM Subject: GEN11-29 >Biotech News, by Richard Wolfson, PhD > >Reprinted with permission from the December 1999 issue of Alive: Canadian >Journal of Health and Nutrition, 7436 Fraser Park Drive, Burnaby, BC V5J >5B9 > >Deutsche Bank advises against Biotech > >Europe's biggest bank, Deutsche Bank, has advised several thousand of the >world's largest investors not to invest in biotechnology. The report to >its investors warns that farmers who plant biotech crops could lose money >and that the market value of biotech companies could collapse. The report >concludes: "GM organisms are dead" because consumers are suspicious about >their impact on human health and the environment. >The full report is accessible at: http://www.biotech-info.net/Deutsche.html > >Biotech Firms Top Blacklist > >A survey of socially responsible investors by the Ethical Investment Trust >shows that concern about investing in businesses carrying out biotech >research has gone from being a minor issue two years ago to investors' >second biggest concern. Arms manufacturing was ranked the least ethical >investment, followed by biotech research. > >Grain Giant asks Farmers to Segregate > >U.S. grain giant Archer Daniels Midland Co. called on American farmers to >segregate genetically modified and conventional crops. The British Retail >Consortium, representing food outlets in UK, welcomed the move by ADM >saying: "It will help British food retailers in their efforts to source >non-GM ingredients." Grain merchants have already begun paying farmers >higher prices for non-GE soy and corn. > >Demand for Non-Biotech Corn > >Because of the controversy over biotech crops, the American Corn Growers >Association (ACGA) is asking farmers to plant non-genetically engineered >corn. According to Gary Goldberg, CEO of the association, "GMOs have become >the albatross around the neck of farmers on issues of trade, labeling, >testing, certification, segregation, market availability and agribusiness >concentration. Until all these issues are answered, it is best for >production agriculture to examine alternatives to planting GMOs." > >Heinz GE-Free in Europe > >In responding to public outcry against genetically engineered ingredients, >the Pittsburgh-based food giant Heinz eliminated all genetically modified >ingredients from beans, soups and other products sold in Europe. > >GE Website for children > > is an excellent >illustrated website for children about genetic engineering and its hazards. >Visitors to the website are encouraged to download anything they like off >the website as long as they acknowledge where it came from. Material from >the site is already being used in schools in New Zealand. > >US Ambassador to EU Threatens Trade War > >Richard Morningstar, the new U.S. ambassador to the European Union, >threatened a billion-dollar trade war over moves by European governments to >refuse genetically engineered food imports. The warning fuels claims that >the U.S. dominated biotech industry is using its ties with the American >government to bully countries who do not want genetically modified foods. > >Super Opium Poppy > >Scientists in Australia have genetically engineered poppy plants capable of >producing twice the opium. Australia produces about 25 percent of the >world's legal opium. Senior police sources fear drug gangs, who have >already stolen more than 50,000 poppy heads this year, could target seeds >from the new super poppy. > >Honda Building U.S. Plant for GE-Free soybeans > >Honda Trading Corp of Japan is building a plant in Ohio (USA) for sorting >non-genetically modified soybeans. The plant will have a capacity of 20,000 >tonnes of soybeans per year. Soybeans from the plant will be sold to >manufacturers of GE-free soy products, such as in Japan where GE foods need >be labeled. > >UK Monsanto Executives Want to Pull Out of GE > >According to the Independent (UK, September 5, 1999), top executives of >Monsanto are pressuring the company to pull out of genetically modified >crop trials in Britain. Senior managers are deeply concerned about >continuing public resistance to GE crops. > >Japanese Brewers Shunning GM corn > >Japan's third-largest beer maker Sapporo Breweries announced it will stop >using genetically modified corn to make beer. A few days earlier, industry >leader Kirin Brewery Co took the same action. > >For further information on biotechnology and its hazards, see the website: >http://www.concentric.net/~Rwolfson/home.html > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 30 01:23:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA16105 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 01:23:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA29642; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 01:19:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA29371 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 01:16:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d155.infoserve.net [199.175.157.155]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA23197 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:22:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002d01bf3afb$8852e700$9b9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Pot. Preps./ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:24:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF3AB8.78414480" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2502 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF3AB8.78414480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I understand that higher potenzies (for mammalian systems) tend to = work over longer periods of time. Would that be also the case when = potentizing the preps? Would higher potencies work over a year or a = season instead of over a smaller portion of time? Michael ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF3AB8.78414480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
   I understand that higher potenzies (for = mammalian=20 systems) tend to work over longer periods of time.  Would that be = also the=20 case when potentizing the preps?  Would higher potencies work over = a year=20 or a season instead of over a smaller portion of time?=20 Michael
------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF3AB8.78414480-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 30 07:02:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA18655 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:02:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA15374; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:44:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA15268 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:41:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from xtra.co.nz ([210.55.33.20]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991130115024.GKJE1928399.mta1-rme@xtra.co.nz> for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:50:24 +1300 Message-ID: <3843B63E.EBFA63F6@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 00:34:23 +1300 From: eaccess Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: eaccess X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNow Subject: Potentizing and Preparations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2503 Dear Cheryl Kemp and List In reply to your questions, Cheryl, we can refer to Steiner's Medical lectures to get a clearer picture of what happens when we continue potentizing substances to ever higher and higher potencies. Steiner says: ...."we can homeopathise, we can dilute the aggregate states of the substances in question. This is what happens if one dilutes in the way of Homeopathic doses. Here something occours which does not receive due attention in the natural science of today, for mankind has a strong tendency to abstractions. They say, for example, that from a source of light - for example, the sun - the light radiates in all directions, and finally disappears into infinity. But this is not true. No such form of activity vanishes into infinite space, but it extends within a certain limited orb and then rebounds elastically, returning to its source, although the quality of this return is often different from its centrifugal quality. In nature there are only rhythmical processes, there are none which continue into infinity. They revert rhythmically upon themselves. That is not only the case in quantitative dispersion, but also in qualitative. If you subdivide any substance, it has at first certain distinctive qualities. These qualities do not decrease and diminish ad infinitum; at a certain point they are reversed and become their opposites. And this intrinsic rhythm is also the foundation of the contrast between the upper and the lower organisation..................(1) and "Increase potency and you reach a zero point; beyond that opposite effects appear. But this is not all; the further path on the negative side leads to another zero point for these opposite effects. Passing the second zero, you will come to a higher form of efficiency tending in the same direction as the first sequence, but of quite a different nature. It would be valuable and appropriate to plot out the different effect of potencies by means of curves. But it would be necessary to construct these curves in a special manner; first to delineate a curve and then, on arriving at the point where certain lower potencies cease to work and are superseded by the working of higher potencies, to turn sharply at right angles and continue the curve into space..." (2) Now generally speaking, from a medical point of view of their effects in Man, if we potentise Plant materials - they work on the Astral Body , if we potentise animal materials they work on the etheric body and if we potentise mineral materials they work on the ego. You raise several difficult questions, with no easy answers - we can assume that on a biodynamic farm, that has had all the preparations applied for some time, the etheric forces (living forces) are much stronger in the plants grown there, and the plants themselves are more "substantial" - i.e. compared to a control - dry weight is increased. If we look at the Agriculture Lectures, Lecture 4 and Discussion, the 500 Prep when stirred and sprayed, releases an "immense ethereal and astral force" so the "Astral Atmosphere" on the farm is higher than that of the surrounding farms if they have not applied 500. Now you applied 6x potentised animal peppers. - Mineral ASH - Since they work directly on the "Group Soul " of the animal concerned, having the effect of driving them away from the area peppered, (the Animal Ego being carried by the Astral World,) it does seem that they do work better if applied to a BD farm with a higher "astrality". Now your dowser, when using a Pendulum or whatever to get a "sign" is actually initially formulating a thought form in her etheric body (thinking being an etheric activity) which works directly into the astral world - (3) and the astral world works back by means of a sign. to clarify: ".....What is the foundation of all this? it is based on the fact that there is a faint interruption between the Ego and Astral body on one hand and the Physical and the etheric body on the other, so that the human being does not only perceive what is approximately speaking, at his side, but by eliminating his physical body he becomes a sensory organ able to perceive inside of the earth, without having to dig holes into it. But when this direction exercises its influence, a direction which is normally that of feeling, then one cannot use the expressions which correspond to the thinking capacity. These perceptions are not expressed in words. They can only be expressed as already indicated, through signs." and "With these things I only wished to indicate that through certain pathological conditions it is possible for man to extend his perceptive capacity. In a sound and healthy way this is done through imagination and inspiration" (4) The accuracy of answers given by a "sign" depend very much on the clarity of the original thought and this is the "secret" of good dowsing - a very clearly formulated thought. The Astral world being of a different time stream, can tell you practically anything (5) Steiner touches on this in the Agriculture Lectures when talking about Nitrogen, (6) which is the physical carrier of the Astral world. Now for the 60x potency, You didn't say if it worked or not, but I assume it did, I don't personally think that it is drawing on energies to the detriment of others, nor a karmic level. - just at a higher level as outlined by Steiner above. Hope this helps a bit. 1.' Spiritual Science and Medicine', Rudolf Steiner, Lecture 2, 1975 ed. Rudolf Steiner Publishing Co. - 20 lectures March-April 1920.. p. 35,36. 2. As above - lecture 11 - p. 146. 3. "Foundations of Esotericism" Lecture XIX 17th October 1905 Rudolf Steiner. 4. "The Widening of Man's Perception" - 7th Jan 1923 Rudolf Steiner. Anthroposophic News Sheet 1/2 and 3/4 ---11th, 25th January 1948. 5. "At the Gates of Spiritual Science" - Lecture 2, Rudolf Steiner - 23rd August 1906. p. 20. second edition 1986 - Rudolf steiner Press. 6." Agriculture" Lecture 3 - p. 49, 51, (second edition) JT From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 30 11:03:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21970 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:03:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05712; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:59:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f110.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.110]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05152 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:55:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 85990 invoked by uid 0); 30 Nov 1999 15:58:15 -0000 Message-ID: <19991130155815.85989.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.138.182.187 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:58:15 PST X-Originating-IP: [205.138.182.187] From: "Charles Premoe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: bd vs organic foods Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:58:15 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2504 "PRIDE GOETH BEFORE THE FALL." May we all strive to fulfill the measure of our creation. That being, doing the very thing that we were ment to do; i.e., showing kindness toward one another,prefering others over self, living our lives in such a way that they edify all. If everyone would at the very least make an attempt to apply the same spiritual principles to their lives as they claim they do to their gardens, would it not also create harmony with the world around us? Oneness is the key which will unlock the unseen forces of the universe. Let us gently turn it with movements of compassion and watch what happens as the door of healing begins to open. Charles Premoe capremoe@hotmail.com >From: David Isaacs >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Re: bd vs organic foods >Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 20:01:14 -0800 > >tre correct amigo. you are not a scientific survey. you are n=1. And you >are nor even a neutral n=1. She GAVE you produce from her farm. That is >hardly totally materialistic. And "just organic" is hardly an >agricultural pejorative. Moreover, she exhibits an effect that few of >your BD contemporaries boast about - an overabundance of produce. > >Consider that its about time you called a truce and stopped bashing >everyone that does not measure up to your self established level of >spiritual agricultural purity. > >Do you really imagine that on any day of his life Herr Steiner would >have wasted a second criticising a well intentioned neighbor who cared >to share the products of her efforts with him? I believe he would have >just said thank you. Consider loading your guns with peace and >compassion next time. > >Davidi/whirlderv@ap.net > > >Michael Roboz wrote: > > > This is NOT a scientific survey, actually, only where n=2! I "farm" > > using BD methodology and mindset. My neighbour, who is a well-known > > organic gardener in our area, is just organic.She often gives me > > excess vegies. I HAVE to admit that her comparable vegies NEVER have > > tasted as good as mine. I don't know why. She works very hard at her > > garden and has many more years experience than I do, yet my vegies > > have TASTE and hers is tasteless. I am told that the preps have an > > influence beyond my borders, so her garden should be influenced. She > > is totally materialistic. Just a tidbit. Michael Chuck & Diana Premoe and family capremoe@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 30 11:40:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22712 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:40:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09986; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:36:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09389 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:31:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d148.infoserve.net [199.175.157.148]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA20923 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:36:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001001bf3b51$655dd060$949dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF / Fw: GEN11-30 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:38:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2505 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 8:18 AM Subject: GEN11-30 >Ottawa Citizen >November 29, 1999 Page A3 > >McCain rejects genetic tinkering > >French-Fry giant will stop buying altered potatoes > >FREDERICTON -- McCain Foods has waded into the explosive debate over >so-called "Frankenstein foods" by refusing to accept genetically engineered >potatoes for processing. > >Starting next year, the Florenceville, N.B.,-based company will no longer >buy genetically altered potatoes grown by farmers in New Brunswick and the >rest of the country. > >McCain's chairman said the decision was made after months of pressure from >consumers who fear genetic tampering could damage the environment and human >health. > >....... > >Story is also on CBC website > >MCCAIN'S BANS GENETICALLY MODIFIED POTATOES >McCain's has announced it will no longer buy genetically altered potatoes >grown by Canadian farmers. The New Brunswick-based food company ... > >says the ban will begin next year. >FULL STORY: >http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view.cgi?/news/1999/11/28/potato991128 > >......... > >GREENPEACE CHALLENGES PRESIDENT'S CHOICE AND BETTY CROCKER TO ELIMINATE >FRANKENSPUDS, FOLLOWING MCCAIN'S LEAD > >TORONTO, November 29 /CNW/ via NewsEdge Corporation -- Today Greenpeace >Canada stepped up its campaign to pressure Canada's food distributors, >including President's Choice and Betty Crocker, to remove genetically >engineered (GE) ingredients such as potatoes from their products. This >followed the weekend announcement from food giant McCain's that it will >refuse to accept genetically engineered potatoes, citing consumer concerns. > >McCain's chairman today said that `We've got too many people worried about >eating the product. Greenpeace campaigner, Michael Khoo, applauded McCain's >plans to go GE-free, saying ``President's Choice and Betty Crocker should >look at McCain's reasoning because it also applies to their products.'' > >``McCain's has shown that it can be done. It's up to the others to follow >the lead, or lose the market.'' said Khoo > >Greenpeace will be encouraging supporters to pressure the companies through >their customer service lines (President's Choice-416-218-7777, Betty >Crocker-9O5-212-4059, Lipton-1-800-565-7273) > >``Canadian consumers are saying no to GE foods that put them, and the >environment, at risk. Public opinion polls show that over 80% of Canadians >want the option of rejecting GE foods,'' added Khoo. > >/For further information: Michael Khoo or Holly Penfound: 416-597-8408, >cell: 416-569-8408; French release available on request from: Johanne >Fillion or Nadine Bachand: 514-933-0021, cell: 514-898-3587/ >......... > >Ottawa Citizen > >Tuesday, Nov 30, P. A1 > >Government fast-tracked Monsanto's GM potatoes > >Private deal struck quietly to speed up regulatory system > >Pauline Tam > >Biotech giant Monsanto Company struck a private deal with senior federal >food regulators that resulted in the swift approval of two new kinds of >genetically modified potatoes, according to an internal Health Canada >document obtained by the Citizen. > >The undated memo, addressed to a senior aide for Health Minister Allan >Rock, outlines a deal brokered in March that paved the way for Monsanto to >begin selling its new potato seeds less than two months later. > >Until the deal was negotiated, the potatoes had been held up in the >regulatory system because Monsanto refused to provide key scientific >information to regulators assessing the products' health and environmental >effects, the memo shows. > >"Monsanto objected to these requests believing that their data adequately >supports their conclusions that these products present 'no significant >environmental, feed or food safety risk.' " > >The seeds, marketed by the NatureMark unit of Monsanto and sold under the >brand names New Leaf Y and New Leaf Plus, are genetically engineered to >repel two separate potato viruses. > >They are also designed to resist the Colorado Potato Beetle, a common pest. > >While the seeds have been approved for sale, they do not yet exist in large >enough quantities for commercial farming. > >Details of the deal and how it was made point to evidence of high-level >industry interference in a regulatory process that the government has >defended as impartial and rigorous, said Michele Brill-Edwards, a former >Health Canada drug regulator and critic of the system. > >"What you're seeing is a high-level example of a very dirty game that >practically nobody knows about. These kinds of meetings go on all the time >and it's almost never captured because people are careful not to let this >kind of thing be known." > >She added it is highly unusual for briefing notes of such meetings to be >prepared for top ministerial aides. > >The memo was written by George Paterson, former director general of Health >Canada's Food Directorate, and addressed to John Dossetor, a senior policy >advisor to Mr. Rock. > >Mr. Dossetor did not respond to requests from the Citizen for comment. >While it's unclear who requested the memo or whether Mr. Dossetor received >it, a Health Canada spokeswoman said there are occasions when ministers' >aides are briefed on meetings between regulators and biotech companies. > >"This just informs them of what happened at that meeting and it's for their >information," said Lynn Lesage. > >The revelations come at a time when consumer sensitivity about genetically >modified foods is high, and the credibility of the country's food-safety >system is being called into question. > >This week, New Brunswick-based McCain Foods announced it would stop buying >genetically altered potatoes from Canadian farmers in response to consumer >fears about such products. > >The move comes just weeks after 200 scientists from Health Canada's Health >Protection Branch signed a petition that, among other things, raised alarm >at the acute shortage of scientists for evaluations and risk assessments of >genetically modified foods. Public-health critics also attacked the >regulatory system for relying on data supplied by industry rather than >original research. > >According to the memo, released under the Access to Information Act to >Ottawa-based researcher Ken Rubin, the deal was made after two high-level >meetings in February and March. > >The meetings were attended by Ron Doering, president of the Canadian Food >Inspection Agency (CFIA), officials from Agriculture and Agrifood Canada, >deputy ministers from New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, and groups >representing potato growers from four provinces. On the second occasion, >representatives from Monsanto were also present. > >The resulting deal set deadlines over a six-week period during which >Monsanto agreed to provide regulators with the missing information. The >data were needed to complete a routine government assessment of the >potatoes' impact on human health and the environment. > >In exchange for Monsanto's co-operation, Health Canada and the CFIA "agreed >to a 30-day turnaround for reviewing the information provided" on the >potatoes. > >Jane Shapiro, spokeswoman for Monsanto Canada, declined to comment on the >reasons the company withheld data from regulators. > >The meetings were arranged at the request of potato growers from Prince >Edward Island, New Brunswick, Alberta and Manitoba. The growers were >worried that as a result of Monsanto's incomplete submissions to the >government, the company's new potatoes would not be approved in time for >spring planting, which would put them at a competitive disadvantage with >U.S. farmers. > >Patton MacDonald, executive director of the New Brunswick Potato Agency and >one of those present at the meetings, said he first heard the potatoes were >held up in the regulatory system at a seed-industry conference last >December. By early 1999, when federal regulators still hadn't approved the >products, he decided to mobilize the support of farmers' groups and senior >provincial mandarins, he said. > >The second meeting, which included a half-dozen senior executives from >Monsanto's Canadian and international divisions, was called to find ways to >ensure the regulators got the information they needed so the product could >be approved quickly, said Mr. MacDonald. > >"They (Monsanto) brought their heavy artillery and we were glad about that, >because we thought we would get the answers." > >But the resulting deal did not mean Monsanto's potatoes received >rubber-stamp approval, said Grant Watson, the CFIA's national manager of >the variety section, who attended the meetings. > >"It was not a case of, 'Well, you give us something and we'll review it and >sign it off.' No, it doesn't work that way. There are critical things that >need to be met, and as long as the data answered all our questions, then >we're prepared to look at time and make the decision within 30 days." > >But the memo also shows the deal was not arrived at easily, because >Monsanto refused to sign an agreement allowing all parties to talk openly >about its confidential business information. The company eventually agreed >to a verbal waiver. > >Dr. Brill-Edwards said such tactics point to deliberate efforts by Monsanto >to prevent damaging information about its products from reaching the potato >growers. "It's like a courtroom where you don't want the evidence against >you to get out." > >According to the memo, government inspections on past "confined field >trials" conducted by Monsanto showed the company performed poorly. As a >result, the CFIA was concerned that Monsanto would "not be able to >adequately manage a larger scale 'field trial.' " > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 30 12:18:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23407 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:17:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14922; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:13:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14306 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:09:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ap.net (D-07.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.40]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19560 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:12:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3844052E.2765491B@ap.net> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:11:10 -0800 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Pot. Preps./ References: <002d01bf3afb$8852e700$9b9dafc7@333> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------0636735B736FD96C9C4670EF" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2506 --------------0636735B736FD96C9C4670EF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are a variety of philosophies current in Homeopathy. Often a "traditional" practitioner will prescribe a "constitutional " remedy to address an individuals entire state of health. Constitutional remedies are often of higher potency, however they are designed to work at a deeper level to correct a lifetime of insults that an individuals system may have received. The objective in these cases is working deeper, not necessarily longer although this may be one of the effects. However, generally, only the potency necessary to correct a condition is used. cheers,davidi Michael Roboz wrote: > I understand that higher potenzies (for mammalian systems) tend to > work over longer periods of time. Would that be also the case when > potentizing the preps? Would higher potencies work over a year or a > season instead of over a smaller portion of time? Michael --------------0636735B736FD96C9C4670EF Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are a variety of philosophies current in Homeopathy.  Often a "traditional" practitioner will prescribe a "constitutional " remedy to address an individuals entire state of health.  Constitutional remedies are often of higher potency, however they are designed to
work at a deeper level to correct a lifetime of insults that an individuals system may have received.  The objective in these cases is working deeper, not necessarily longer although this may be one of the effects.  However, generally, only the potency necessary to correct a condition is used.
cheers,davidi

Michael Roboz wrote:

    I understand that higher potenzies (for mammalian systems) tend to work over longer periods of time.  Would that be also the case when potentizing the preps?  Would higher potencies work over a year or a season instead of over a smaller portion of time? Michael
--------------0636735B736FD96C9C4670EF-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 30 12:27:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23568 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:27:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16420; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:22:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f39.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.39]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16065 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 57457 invoked by uid 0); 30 Nov 1999 17:23:22 -0000 Message-ID: <19991130172322.57456.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.138.182.187 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:23:22 PST X-Originating-IP: [205.138.182.187] From: "Charles Premoe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Back to BD and Currency Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:23:22 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2507 Someone once said; "if you want to make money, find a hurt and heal it, find a need and supply it." Money should never be an issue. The people of the world are sick and dieing either from lack of food, or an over abundance of the same which has been totally devitalized. BD perhaps has the answers which will heal some of these hurts, and supply a few of these needs, if only the focus of attention would be placed upon doing what BD does best; without thought of self. There is someone out their that knows our needs even before we ask. He has provided enough and to spare. We cannot take credit for anything that we might be, or that we might think of, "for all good things come down from the Father of Lights." The only thing that we possess is our ability to make choices, good or bad; and even that has been given to us. The world around us is made up intirely of apposing forces which constantly work, the one against the other. i.e., light and dark, heat and cold, good and evil, yin and yang, love and hate, life and death. These create balance within the universe inwhich we live; otherwise there can be no existance. It is said; "Love is stronger than death, and death is stronger than life; and it is sad that men divide againts themselves." Take a good long look at the world around you, the animals, and the plants; do any of these have bank accounts, or go to the store to buy food, or clothing. Yet their every need seems to be taken care of. How is it that creatures of far less intellect are able to exist without all these things that we think we must have in order to survive. There is yet much to be learned from nature. I hope that we can learn to co-exist with each other and learn the seek to understand some of the hidden mysteries of life that are open and free!!! to all who have a sincere desire to seek, ask, and knock. Peace be unto you all who seek for a better world. Live long and prosper. Charles Premoe capremoe@hotmail.com >From: David Isaacs >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Re: Back to BD and Currency >Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:46:34 -0800 > >Money and everything. > >This money stuff seems to be a never ending issue here on the list for >one >reason or another. My experience , as a spiritual healer for 25 years, >is >that its up to the individual's personal ethical code. Every healing >encounter is different. And it's up to the practitioner to define the >boundaries. We must also remember that "money" is not really "money". >It definitely is self respect, love, feeling worthy and or deserving on >both >sides of the interchange. It forces you to define how you want people >to >approach you, e.g., as a friend, as a professional, as a consultant, as >a >writer, researcher, or academic. If you are an expert at Biodynamics >and >present yourself as such, courage of your convictions comes in real >handy. >Copright everything that you write. Set your fees and let folks proceed >on that basis. Its their choice to either develop themselves into a >farmer with your years of experience and experimentation or to invest in >purchasing the codified knowledge from you. And your decision to treat >customers differently is nobody's business butyour own. In the" >healing" business, its no different. It takes a longtime for folks to >really get ready and want to change. Thats the price of ADMISSION. And >sometimes paying this price is all I ask. Extend mercy and compassion >to yourself. Open your heart to love. Surrender. Pay attention. > >Not so different from any spiritual pursuit including farming. And >there >are myriad ways to READ all about it. Displaying ignorance and making >no >effort to get informed is just lack of respect for all the work done by >a >teacher, consultant or farmer. Witness the posts and skepticsm from >the"I >don't know anything about Biodynamics" folks that have appeared on the >list >recently. In what pursuit does the new student get a free ride? Just >because a new farmer demands information, does not mean that they are >"ready >" to receive it. Spiritual studies require practice; Biodynamics is >more >than just making manure. > >Wishing you all clarity on your path and the courage of your >convictions. >May the message of God spread far and wide. > >davidi/whirlderv@ap.net > >Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > > > Thanks Hugh > > for the rollicking good tale and I am glad to see you are squeezing the > > life out of your days. > > > > Just to clarify. re JT, for my part I will do my best to allow his darts > > to fly by, other than address any glaring misinformation. > > > > re my 'its OK for you' stance. > > I do not mean to be attacking or even questioning of your position with > > your life and I am under no illusions about the road you have travelled. > > > > My point is more that once we ( I ) have(d) reached a certain survival > > point in our lives we can begin to be philanthropic. In the past > > monastries provided the base, today we need to do that for ourselves. > > > > In Astro speak, once we have our 10th house (personal career) sorted out > > we can move onto the 11th (philanthropic actions to our community). > > Which can lead us off to the insight about what happens when people use > > 11th house organisations for their personal 10th house. ie beaurocrats. > > But another time. > > > > I empathise with your comments re peoples misuse of your free info. It > > has long been my belief that part of the responsibility of making > > developments is that their release needs to done responsibly. I have > > voiced this before, and is in fact the major reason I maintain privacy > > and request people walk such a small part of the road for themselves, or > > get my 'expert' assistance. > > > > I do note though Hugh we share, Sun Neptune squares, which is one overly > > generous, self sacrificing, humanity serving mother of an aspect. For > > better or worse. A thought of a little self preservation not being a bad > > thing, does come to mind. > > > > I have noticed 'out of the corner of my eye' these small eyed ag > > consultants coming to my free seminars, taking down notes for months, to > > now be appearing as the organic experts the producer boards give the > > juicy contracts too. > > > > A little story or two to illustrate > > A collegue of mine has done research on the role of Ca in pitting of > > kiwifruit over some 25 years. He actually published the answer way back > > then. The kiwifruit research board recently wanted to do some research > > into it. He got 6 phone calls in one day from people 'in the structure' > > as to what the answer to the problem was. They then went and paid > > someone else to carry out the research, showing the answers he provided, > > some 20 years ago, and then gave one of these small eye consultants the > > paid job of disseminating this information to groups all over the > > country. My collegue is a reaseach company and worked with the above > > mentioned people for the last 20 years. Why did he not get the work and > > credit???? > > > > A particular sward management technique I promoted to the organic > > kiwifruit growers in 1993, in the face of industry horror, has just > > turned up in the kiwifruit journal as the scientific best way of doing > > it, yet somehow in the translation my name seems to have been lost. > > Funny that. > > > > Right, morality and ethical behaviour, all appear to be fantasies I seem > > to have deludedly believed to be natural human traits and which now > > appears to be the experience of a very few 'angels' on their way into or > > out of this planet, and not the norm. Ah well, took awhile. > > > > Which brings me to one of the strange dualities of the global economy. > > Are we not being asked to believe in and trust that business will act > > morally and ethically with our planets heritage, when their own ethos > > states than "morality and business are a contradiction in terms". Hummm > > wake up folks here comes the next and last great imperialist push. > > > > I tell this story as an indicator of the mentality of the industry we > > are dealing with here. Maybe it is different where you live, but this is > > real dog eat dog stuff (in one of the most globalised countries in the > > world) and a little self presevation is indicated it seems to me. There > > are no prizes for being chewed up and spat out. > > > > Was it not Socrates who came to a sticky end by being set up by the > > beaurocrates. Maybe if he faced that all sale of goods is prostitution > > of one sort or another, he might then have been able to get himself a > > good lawyer, instead (of threathening the development of the whole > > capitialist system) and a swill of hemlock :) > > > > Have a nice day > > > > Glen A > Chuck & Diana Premoe and family capremoe@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 30 13:43:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24889 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:43:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25834; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:38:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f18.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.18]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25477 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:36:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 35031 invoked by uid 0); 30 Nov 1999 18:38:42 -0000 Message-ID: <19991130183842.35030.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.138.182.187 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:38:42 PST X-Originating-IP: [205.138.182.187] From: "Charles Premoe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Back to BD and Currency Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:38:42 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2508 With all the talk about money, here's something to consider!!! Plea for Help! With the Christmas season approaching, please look into your heart to help those in need. Hundreds of National Basketball Association basketball players in our very own country are living at or just below the seven-figure salary level (Atrocious!) And, as if that weren't bad enough, they will be deprived of pay for several weeks--possibly a whole year--as a result of the current lockout situation. But now, you can help! For only $20,835 a month, about $694.50 a day (that's less than the cost of a large screen projection TV) you can help a basketball player remain economically viable during his time of need. This contribution by no means solves the problem, as it barely covers the yearly league minimum, ...but it's a start! Almost $700 may not seem like a lot of money to you, but to a basketball player it could mean the difference between a vacation spent golfing in Florida or a Mediterranean cruise. For you, seven hundred dollars is nothing more than two months rent or mortgage payments. But to a basketball player, $700 will almost replace his daily salary. Your commitment of less than $700 a day will enable a player to buy that home entertainment center, trade in the year-old Lexus for a new Ferrari, or enjoy a weekend in Rio. HOW WILL I KNOW I'M HELPING? Each month, you will receive a complete financial report on the player you sponsor. Detailed information about his stocks, bonds, 401(k), real estate, and other investment holdings will be mailed to your home. You'll also get information on how he plans to invest the $5 million lump sum he will receive upon retirement. Plus upon signing up for this program, you will receive a photo of the player (unsigned-for a signed photo, please include an additional $50.00). Put the photo on your refrigerator to remind you of other peoples' suffering. HOW WILL HE KNOW I'M HELPING? Your basketball player will be told that he has a SPECIAL FRIEND who just wants to help in a time of need. Although the player won't know our name, he will be able to make collect calls to your home via a special operator just in case additional funds are needed for unexpected expenses. YES, I WANT TO HELP! I would like to sponsor a striking NBA basketball player. My preference is checked below: [ ] Starter [ ] Reserve [ ] Star (Higher cost) [ ] Superstar (Much higher cost) [ ] Entire team (Please call our 900 number to ask for the cost of a specific team (Cheerleaders not included.)) [ ] I'll sponsor a player most in need. Please select one for me. Please charge the account listed below $694.50 per day for a reserve player or starter for the duration of the strike. Please send me a picture of the player I have sponsored, along with a team logo and my very own NBA Players Association badge to wear proudly on my lapel. Your Name: _______________________ Telephone Number: _______________________ Account Number: _______________________ Exp.Date:_______ [ ] MasterCard [ ] Visa [ ] American Express [ ] Discover Signature: _______________________> Mail completed form to NBA Players Association or call 1-900-2MUCH now to enroll by phone. Note: Sponsors are not permitted to contact the player they have sponsored, either in person or by other means including, but not limited to, telephone calls, letters, e-mail, or third parties. Keep in mind that the basketball player you have sponsored will be much too busy enjoying his free time, thanks to your generous donations. Contributions are not tax-deductible. Charles Premoe capremoe@hotmail.com >From: David Isaacs >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Re: Back to BD and Currency >Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:46:34 -0800 > >Money and everything. > >This money stuff seems to be a never ending issue here on the list for >one >reason or another. My experience , as a spiritual healer for 25 years, >is >that its up to the individual's personal ethical code. Every healing >encounter is different. And it's up to the practitioner to define the >boundaries. We must also remember that "money" is not really "money". >It definitely is self respect, love, feeling worthy and or deserving on >both >sides of the interchange. It forces you to define how you want people >to >approach you, e.g., as a friend, as a professional, as a consultant, as >a >writer, researcher, or academic. If you are an expert at Biodynamics >and >present yourself as such, courage of your convictions comes in real >handy. >Copright everything that you write. Set your fees and let folks proceed >on that basis. Its their choice to either develop themselves into a >farmer with your years of experience and experimentation or to invest in >purchasing the codified knowledge from you. And your decision to treat >customers differently is nobody's business butyour own. In the" >healing" business, its no different. It takes a longtime for folks to >really get ready and want to change. Thats the price of ADMISSION. And >sometimes paying this price is all I ask. Extend mercy and compassion >to yourself. Open your heart to love. Surrender. Pay attention. > >Not so different from any spiritual pursuit including farming. And >there >are myriad ways to READ all about it. Displaying ignorance and making >no >effort to get informed is just lack of respect for all the work done by >a >teacher, consultant or farmer. Witness the posts and skepticsm from >the"I >don't know anything about Biodynamics" folks that have appeared on the >list >recently. In what pursuit does the new student get a free ride? Just >because a new farmer demands information, does not mean that they are >"ready >" to receive it. Spiritual studies require practice; Biodynamics is >more >than just making manure. > >Wishing you all clarity on your path and the courage of your >convictions. >May the message of God spread far and wide. > >davidi/whirlderv@ap.net > >Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > > > Thanks Hugh > > for the rollicking good tale and I am glad to see you are squeezing the > > life out of your days. > > > > Just to clarify. re JT, for my part I will do my best to allow his darts > > to fly by, other than address any glaring misinformation. > > > > re my 'its OK for you' stance. > > I do not mean to be attacking or even questioning of your position with > > your life and I am under no illusions about the road you have travelled. > > > > My point is more that once we ( I ) have(d) reached a certain survival > > point in our lives we can begin to be philanthropic. In the past > > monastries provided the base, today we need to do that for ourselves. > > > > In Astro speak, once we have our 10th house (personal career) sorted out > > we can move onto the 11th (philanthropic actions to our community). > > Which can lead us off to the insight about what happens when people use > > 11th house organisations for their personal 10th house. ie beaurocrats. > > But another time. > > > > I empathise with your comments re peoples misuse of your free info. It > > has long been my belief that part of the responsibility of making > > developments is that their release needs to done responsibly. I have > > voiced this before, and is in fact the major reason I maintain privacy > > and request people walk such a small part of the road for themselves, or > > get my 'expert' assistance. > > > > I do note though Hugh we share, Sun Neptune squares, which is one overly > > generous, self sacrificing, humanity serving mother of an aspect. For > > better or worse. A thought of a little self preservation not being a bad > > thing, does come to mind. > > > > I have noticed 'out of the corner of my eye' these small eyed ag > > consultants coming to my free seminars, taking down notes for months, to > > now be appearing as the organic experts the producer boards give the > > juicy contracts too. > > > > A little story or two to illustrate > > A collegue of mine has done research on the role of Ca in pitting of > > kiwifruit over some 25 years. He actually published the answer way back > > then. The kiwifruit research board recently wanted to do some research > > into it. He got 6 phone calls in one day from people 'in the structure' > > as to what the answer to the problem was. They then went and paid > > someone else to carry out the research, showing the answers he provided, > > some 20 years ago, and then gave one of these small eye consultants the > > paid job of disseminating this information to groups all over the > > country. My collegue is a reaseach company and worked with the above > > mentioned people for the last 20 years. Why did he not get the work and > > credit???? > > > > A particular sward management technique I promoted to the organic > > kiwifruit growers in 1993, in the face of industry horror, has just > > turned up in the kiwifruit journal as the scientific best way of doing > > it, yet somehow in the translation my name seems to have been lost. > > Funny that. > > > > Right, morality and ethical behaviour, all appear to be fantasies I seem > > to have deludedly believed to be natural human traits and which now > > appears to be the experience of a very few 'angels' on their way into or > > out of this planet, and not the norm. Ah well, took awhile. > > > > Which brings me to one of the strange dualities of the global economy. > > Are we not being asked to believe in and trust that business will act > > morally and ethically with our planets heritage, when their own ethos > > states than "morality and business are a contradiction in terms". Hummm > > wake up folks here comes the next and last great imperialist push. > > > > I tell this story as an indicator of the mentality of the industry we > > are dealing with here. Maybe it is different where you live, but this is > > real dog eat dog stuff (in one of the most globalised countries in the > > world) and a little self presevation is indicated it seems to me. There > > are no prizes for being chewed up and spat out. > > > > Was it not Socrates who came to a sticky end by being set up by the > > beaurocrates. Maybe if he faced that all sale of goods is prostitution > > of one sort or another, he might then have been able to get himself a > > good lawyer, instead (of threathening the development of the whole > > capitialist system) and a swill of hemlock :) > > > > Have a nice day > > > > Glen A > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 30 13:52:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25086 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:52:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26949; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:47:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26645 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:45:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ap.net (D-07.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.40]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27855 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:47:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38441B8D.A8D91D84@ap.net> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:46:37 -0800 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: because Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2509 i like to think that spirit caused me to find this. its made a difference to my day. pass it along to a friend. cheers :o) davidi. The Prayer of an old man. . . Planting Hope By Jean Giono About 40 years ago, I was taking a long trip on foot over mountain heights, an ancient region where the Alps trust down into Provence. This was an area that was quite unknown to tourists since it was barren and colorless land, and nothing grew there except wild lavender. I was crossing the area at its widest point, and after three days of walking, found myself in the midst of unparalleled desolation. I had run out of water the day before, and had to find some urgently, so I camped near the vestiges of an abandoned village. These clustered houses, now in ruins like an old wasps nest, suggested that there must be a spring or a well nearby. There was indeed a spring, but it was dry. It seemed that all life had vanished. After about 5 hours of searching, I still had not found water, and nothing to give me hope of finding any. All about me was the same dryness, the same coarse grasses. Then I thought I glimpsed in the distance a small black silhouette, upright, and took it for the trunk of a solitary tree. In any case, I started towards it. It turned out to be a shepherd, with 30 sheep lying around him on the baking earth. He gave me a drink from his water-gourd and a little later, invited me to his cottage in a fold of the plain. He drew his water -- excellent water -- from a very deep natural well above which he had constructed a primitive winch. The man spoke little. He lived not in a cabin, but in a real house built of stone that bore plain evidence of how his own efforts had reclaimed the ruin he had found there on his arrival. His roof was strong and sound. The wind on its tiles made the sound of the sea upon the shore. The place was in order, the dishes washed, the floor swept, his rifle oiled, his soup was placed to boil, over the fire. I noticed that he was cleanly shaved, all his buttons were firmly sewed on, that his clothing had been mended with the meticulous care that makes the mending invisible. It was understood from the first that I would spend the night there. The nearest inhabited village was more than a day and a half away. And besides, I was perfectly familiar with the nature of the rare villages in that region. They were inhabited with charcoal burners, and the living was bad. Families, crowded together in a climate that is harsh in both winter and summer, found no escape from the unceasing conflict of personalities. Irrational ambition reached inordinate proportions in the continual desire for escape. The soundest characters broke under the perpetual grind. The women nursed their grievances. There was rivalry in everything, over the price of coal as over a pew in the church, over warring virtues as over warring vices as well as ceaseless combat between virtue and vice. He shared his soup with me and afterwards, when I offered my tobacco pouch, he told me that he did not smoke. his dog, as silent as himself, was friendly without being servile. I smoked my pipe and watched him as he fetched a small sack and poured a heap of acorns on the table. He began to inspect them with great concentration, separating the good from the bad. I offered to help him, but he told me that it was his job. I did not insist, seeing the care he devoted to the task. That was the whole of our conversation. When he had set aside a large enough pile of good acorns, he counted the out by tens, meanwhile eliminating the small ones or those which were slightly cracked, for now he examined them more thoroughly. When he had thus selected one hundred perfect acorns, he stopped and we went to bed. There was peace in being with this man. The next day, I asked if I might rest there for a day. He found it quite natural -- or, to be more exact, he gave the impression that nothing could startle him. He opened the sheep pen and led his flock to pasture. Before leaving, he plunged his sack of carefully selected and counted acorns into a pail of water. I noticed that he carried for his stick an iron rod as thick as my thumb and about a yard and half long. Resting myself by walking, I followed a path parallel to his. His pasture was in a valley. He left the dog in charge of the little flock and climbed towards where I stood. I was afraid that he was about to rebuke me for my indiscretion, but it was not that at all. This was the way he was going, and he invited me to go along if I had nothing better to do. He climbed to the top of the ridge, about a hundred yards away. There he began trusting his iron rod into the earth, making a hold in which he planted an acorn. Then he refilled the hole. He was planting oak trees. I asked him if the land belonged to him. He answered no. Did he know whose it was? He did not. He supposed it was community property, or perhaps belonged to people who had forgotten it. He was not interested in finding out whose it was. He planted his acorns with the greatest care. After the midday meal, he resumed his planting. I suppose I must have been fairly insistent in my questioning, for he answered me. For several years he had been planting trees in this wilderness, perhaps a hundred thousand so far. Of the hundred thousand, twenty thousand had sprouted. Of the twenty thousand, he expected to lose about half, to rodents or to the unpredictable designs of Providence. That left ten thousand oaks to grow where nothing had grown before. This was when I began to wonder about the age of this man. He was obviously over fifty. Fifty-five, he told me. His name was Elzeard Bouffier. He had once had a farm in the lowlands. There he had had a wife and son. He had lost his only son, and then his wife. He has withdrawn into this solitude where his pleasure was to live leisurely with his lambs and his dog. It was his opinion that this land was dying for want of trees. He added that having no pressing business of his own, he had resolved to remedy this state of affairs. I told him that in thirty years ten thousand oaks would be magnificent. He answered quite simply that if God granted him life, in thirty years he would have planted so many more that ten thousand would be like a drop of water in the ocean. Besides, he was now studying the reproduction of beech trees and had a nursery of seedlings grown from beechnuts near his cottage. These seedlings, which he protected from his sheep with a wire fence, were very beautiful. He was also considering birches for the valleys, where he told me, there was a certain amount of water below the surface of the soil. The next day we parted. The following year came the War of 1914, in which I was involved for the next 5 years. An infantryman hardly had time for reflecting upon trees. To tell the truth, the whole incident had made little impression upon me; I considered it a hobby, much like stamp collecting, and forgot about it. The war over, I found myself possessed of a tiny demobilization bonus and a huge desire to breath fresh air for a while. It was with no other objective that I took the road to the barren lands once again. The countryside had not changed. However, beyond the deserted village, I glimpsed in the distance a sort of grayish mist that covered the mountain tops like a carpet. "Ten thousand oaks," I reflected, "really take up quite a bit of space." I had seen too many men die in the war not to imagine that Elzeard Bouffier was dead, especially since, at 20, one regards men of fifty as old men with nothing better to do than die. As a matter of fact, he was extremely spry. He had changed jobs. Now he had only four sheep, but instead a hundred beehives. he had got rid of the sheep because they threatened his young trees. The war had disturbed him not at all. He had imperturbably continued to plant. The oaks of 1910 were taller than either of us. It was an impressive spectacle. I was literally speechless and as he did not talk, we spent the whole day walking in silence through his forest. In three sections, it measured eleven kilometers in length and 3 kilometers at its greatest width. When you remembered that all this had sprung from the hands and the soul of this one man, without technical resources, you understood that men could be as effectual as God in realms other than destruction. He had pursued his plan, and beech trees as high as my shoulder spread out as far as the eye could see. He showed me handsome clumps of birch planted 5 years before. He had set them out in the valley where he had guessed, rightly, that there was moisture almost to the surface of the ground. Planting Hope, Jean Giono Part 3 Creation seemed to come about in a chain reaction. He did not worry about it, determinedly pursuing his task in all its simplicity. As we went back towards the village, I saw water flowing in brooks that had been dry since the memory of man. This was the most impressive result of all. The wind too, scattered seeds. As the water appeared, so too did willows, rushes, meadows, flowers. as though there was now a certain purpose in being alive. But the transformation took place so gradually that it became part of the pattern without causing any astonishment. Hunters, climbing into the wilderness in pursuit of hares and wild boar had of course noticed the sudden growth of trees, but had attributed it to some natural caprice of the earth. That is why no one meddled with Elzeard Bouffiers work. If he had been detected he would have had opposition. In 1933, he received a visit from a forest ranger who notified him of an order against lighting fires out of doors for fear of endangering this 'natural' forest. It was the first time, the ranger naively said, that he had ever heard of a forest growing of its own accord. At that time Bouffier was about to plant beeches at a spot some 12 kilometers from his old cottage. In order to avoid traveling back and forth -- for he was by then seventy-five -- he planned to build a stone cabin right at that plantation. The following year he did so. In 1935 a whole delegation came from the Government to examine the "natural" forest. There as a high official from the forest service, a deputy, technicians. There was a great deal of ineffectual talk. It was decided that something must be done, and fortunately, nothing was done except the one helpful thing: the whole forest was placed under the protection of the State, and charcoal burning prohibited. A friend of mine was among the forestry officers of the delegation, and to him I explained the mystery. One day the following week, we went together to see Elzeard Bouffier. We found him hard at work, some ten kilometers from the spot where the inspection had taken place. I delivered the eggs I had brought as a present. We shared our lunch and spent several hours in wordless contemplation of the countryside. Before leaving, my friend simply made a brief suggestion about certain species of trees that the soul here seemed particularly suited for. He did not force the point. "For the very good reason," he told me later, "that Bouffier knows more about it than I do." At the end of another hour, he added, "He knows a lot more about it than anybody. He's discovered a wonderful way to be happy," the only serious danger to the work occurred during the war of 1939. As cars were being run on gazogenes (wood burning generators) there was never enough wood. Cutting was started among the oaks of 1910, but since the area was so far from any railroads, the enterprise turned out to be financial unsound and was abandoned. She shepherd had seen nothing of it. He was 30 kilometers away, peacefully continuing his work, ignoring the war of '39 as he had ignored that of '14. I saw Elzeard Bouffier for the last time in June of 1945. He was then eighty-seven. Now there was a bus running between the Durance Valley and the mountain, which put me down at Vergons. In 1913, this hamlet of ten or twelve houses had three inhabitants. They had been savage creatures, hating each other, living by trapping game, little removed, both physically and morally, from the conditions of prehistoric man. All about them nettles were feeding upon the ruins of abandoned houses. The condition had been beyond hope. For them, nothing but to await death, a situation that rarely predisposes one to virtue. But now everything had changed. Even the air. Instead of the harsh dry winds, a gentle breeze was blowing. A sound like water came from the mountains. . .it was the wind in the forest. Most amazing of all, I heard the actual sound of water falling into a pool. I saw that a fountain had been built, and that it flowed freely. What touched me the most was that someone had planted a linden beside it, a linden that must have been 4 years old, already in full leaf, the incontestable symbol of resurrection. Besides, Vergons bore evidence of labor of the sort of undertaking for which hope is required. On the site of the ruins I had seen in 1913, now stand neat little farms, cleanly plastered. The old streams, fed by the rains and snow that the forest conserves, are flowing again. Their waters have been channeled. On each farm, in groves of maples, fountain pools overflow into carpets of mint. Little by little, the villages have been rebuilt. People from the plains, where land is costly, have settled here, bringing youth, motion, the sprit of adventure. Along the roads you meet hearty men and women, boys and girls who understand laughter and have recovered a taste for picnics. Elzeard Bouffier died peacefully in 1947 at the hospice in Banon. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 30 14:10:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25433 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:10:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29147; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:06:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28983 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 16489 invoked from network); 30 Nov 1999 19:08:25 -0000 Received: from i48-38-21.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO new99) (216.26.62.21) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 1999 19:08:25 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991130083359.00907cc0@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:33:59 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Re: Preps vs Pfeiffer BD Compost Starter In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19991126091539.009011d0@mail.teleport.com> <0.f95a9e8c.256ff155@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2510 At 05:51 PM 11/29/99 -0500, Ted wrote: >How about worm-worked compost? Vermicompost? Any comparision? >Thanks. -Ted > Havent tried vericulture specifically, but the compost pile develops a large population of red wigglers. As you no doubt know, the common terrestial earthworm prefers plain soil and not the high organic matter. I have large populations of the commom worm as well in the garden soil. ==================== David Robison Stellar Processes 1033 SW Yamhill Suite 405 Portland, OR 97205 (503) 827-8336 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Nov 30 16:39:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA28228 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:39:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA17155; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:35:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f100.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.100]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA16730 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:32:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 54234 invoked by uid 0); 30 Nov 1999 21:35:00 -0000 Message-ID: <19991130213500.54233.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.138.182.187 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:35:00 PST X-Originating-IP: [205.138.182.187] From: "Charles Premoe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: bd vs organic foods Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:35:00 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2511 Good question. While were at it. I know that it's a bit of a hasal, but for the sake of all the rest of the newcommers on the list, it would be most helpful if those of you who are sages of BD would speak in complete English instead of abreviated form, i.e., "nbsp," "CSA," and the like. If we are ever to learn, this would be most helpful,and appreciated. Thank you Charles Premoe capremoe@hotmail.com >From: Guillermo Romero >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Re: bd vs organic foods >Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 11:25:11 -0600 > > >ÿþ > >Hey Tony: How you do that ? > >Can someone kindly tell me what "n b s p" mean, I have seen it quite a >bit, but do not have a clue. > >regards > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 1 07:10:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09004 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:10:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA20944; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:05:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA20748 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:00:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.121] (pm3shep1-163-23.intrepid.net [209.190.163.23]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA08221 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:03:53 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:00:22 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Marshall Law in Seattle -Shut down the WTO victory for the People Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2512 >From: "Brian Hill" >To: BIOREGIONAL >Subject: Marshall Law in Seattle -Shut down the WTO victory for the People >Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:34:13 -0800 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 >Reply-To: bioregional@csf.colorado.edu >Sender: owner-bioregional@csf.colorado.edu > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Janet M Eaton >To: TOES97@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU >Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 18:47 >Subject: IMC - Battle in Seattle News- 12 Items > > >INDEPENDENT MEDIA CENTER >http://www.indymedia.org > >Up to the minute grassroots WTO coverage from Seattle. >The Independent Media Center is a grassroots organization committed to >using media production and distribution as a tool for promoting >social and economic justice. Groups Supporting the Independent > > >1] > Seattle Police Fire on Retreating Protesters > by dan merkle 5:32pm Tue Nov 30 '99 > > The Seattle Police unleashed a new > round of tear gas and was finally > able to disperse the crowd after an > all day standoff. As the crowd > retreated, the Police aimlessly fired > rubber bullets at the back of the > running protesters. As there was > clearly no danger to the Police or > any bystanders, these cowardly acts > constitute violations of human rights > laws. > > At 5:15 p.m. (PST), the Seattle Police > Department ("SPD") released a huge barrage of > tear gas into a crowd of nonviolent protesters. > The crowd had taken over an intersection in the > heart of the city which resulted in a stalemate > throughout most of the day. > > Teargas was dispersed intermittently during the > day as the SPD stood in front of their armored > vehicle. The crowd took no actions against the > SPD. > > Finally, in a desperate attempt to take > control, the SPD released large amounts of tear > gas and fired rubber bullets into the crowd of > mostly young adults. As the protesters > retreated, the SPD continued to fire at the > backs of the harmless protesters. This cowardly > act violates the spirit, if not specific > provisions, of international human rights law. > >2] state of emergency > by cnn 5:13pm Tue Nov 30 '99 > > Downtown Seattle has been declared by the Mayor > to be a civil emergency. 7pm curfew from Denny > Street to the waterfornt. Meanwhile hit the > link to see CNN's version of events. Then > return here for the news from the streets. > > state of emergency > http://www.cnn.com/US/9911/30/wto.03/ > > PHOTO > Confrontation at 4th and Pike 3:30pm PST > by gazette webcam 4:54pm Tue Nov 30 '99 > > anarchy vs. the machine > > Confrontation at 4th and Pike 3:30pm PST > (picture) > http://www.historylink.org/gazette/gazette.htm > > >3] Rubber Bullet Shooting > by Joe Friendly 4:29pm Tue Nov 30 '99 > > A police officer shoots rubber bullets into a > crowd of protestors. > > Rubber Bullet Shooting (video: realvideo link) > > >4] Interview with Tom Hayden about the barracades > on site. by Marc Herbst 4:22pm Tue Nov 30 '99 > > Interview with Tom Hayden about the barracades >on > site. > by Marc Herbst 4:22pm Tue Nov 30 '99 > > Interview with Senator Tom Hayden, > founder of SDS, Chicago 8 member, and > California State Senator at Pike and > 6th about protests-230pm. > > Senator Tom Hayden Interviewed at and about the > Seattle barricades . > > > I was wandering up liberated Pine Street when I > came to the large "turtle" lock-boxes at 6th > and Pine. The Police were slowly clearing their > way down 6th Street. Loudspeakers were calling > for support up front to protect the line while > a crowd around the Turtle lockboxes were > chanting. The police where threatening a new > round of gassing. > > At the Northest corner I saw an older man in a > suit and tie standing calmly amongst the noise. > He was talking to someone about what all the > kids were out here doing. I approached him to > find out who he was and interview him. "Tom, " > he paused "Tom Hayden." > > "You're Tom Hayden?" I asked as I lifted my > hand to shake his. "Yes." I'd read a lot about > him while studying the protest movements of the > Sixties. Now a State Senator from California, > he has quite a radical past. He helped author > the Port Huron Statement, the founding document > for the SDS (the Students for a Democratic > Society) which was instramental in creating the > 60's culture of liberation. He was also a > member of the Chicago 7 after the Chicago > Democratic Convention of 1968. > > I asked the Senator about what he thought of > the events. Impressed by what he saw, he said > that these Seattle events were "very > sophisticated." Comparing the protest styles of > yester-year to today, he noted the differences > in tactics. During the sixties the protesters > would stand around with flowers in non-specific > locations and sacrifce their bodies to the > arresting officers. Contrasting that memory to > what he was witnessing all around him, he > commented on how these activists were > attempting to do more. He was impressed how > they were actively trying to shut down a site > of oppression. Whereas in the sixties, sites of > activism where either in Vietnam or an anti-war > protest, today the protests were actively > confronting the sources of oppression. > > I asked him how the activism we are seeing on > the streets today differed from the more > radical late 60's groups like the Weather > Underground. He said that those groups > contained too much oppositional politics and > added to the splintering of the left. He also > commented about how the agggression and > issolation required by those groups lead to > burn-out. > > Senator Hayden also remarked on the > coordination between disparate movements that > seems to characterize and be one explaination > for the strength of this movement. He noted > that in the 60's there were no NGOs (non > governmental organizations) and thus the > movement was able to fracture. He noted that > from the Sixties until now there had been no > big new movements born. Today, he sensed the > creation of a new movement. > > When asked if he thought this anti-WTO action > would be successfull at acheiving its goals, he > was more tepid. He noted that the debate that > it sparked has made the name the WTO a > household word. He also said that capitalists > would no longer have an easy time creating > secret networksof power. > > But he felt that in other ways, the movement > faced new problems that he and his fellow > protesters in the 60's did not face. He > annacdotely told me about a CIA report he read > that was written in the Seventies. The report > suggested that media needed to become more > effective in smearing the left. He said that > the major media will loose much of the > significance of the reasons and the gains made > by the anti-WTO coalition. > > > >5] The Corporate Media Blockade > by Eric Galatas 3:46pm Tue Nov 30 '99 > > The Corporate Media Blockade > by Eric Galatas 3:46pm Tue Nov 30 '99 > > The Independent Media Center, set up > to deliver non-corporate news about > protests in Seattle, has received > information that Police WTO protest > numbers contradict ABC reports from > Seattle > > Corporate Media Shenanigans > by Eric Galatas, Independent Media Center > > KOMO Channel 4, the ABC affiliate in Seattle, > reported this morning that the turn out was > disappointing for the AFL-CIO gathering at > Seattle Center. > > Reporting live from the field, the KOMO > reporter said that from an estimated 25,000 > participants, possibly 10,000 had indeed turned > out to protest the WTO ministerial. > > The Independent Media Center, set up to provide > coverage from non-corporate perspectives, has > received information from police sources that > clearly contradict what the Seattle ABC > affiliate (owned by global conglomerate Disney) > has reported. > > According to the IMC, the police are at this > moment preparing to meet 50,000 protestors > making their way from Seattle Center to the WTO > Ministerial. > > Stay tuned to www.indymedia.org for incoming > audio, video, print and photos of what is about > to take place, surely an historic confrontation > between forces opposing the giveaway of labor, > environment, and human rights to the demands of > capital > > > >6] 75 000 people in the streets of France against > the WTO by PRESS RELEASE 3:30pm Tue Nov 30 '99 > > The demonstrations held against the WTO > Millennium Cycle were a great success > throughout France. > > > 75 000 people in the streets of France against > the WTO hoffstadter@hotmail.com > > >7] Locked-out delegates still tourists at noon by > Andrea del Moral 2:57pm Tue Nov 30 '99 > > Honduran and Australian delegates who have not > been allowed access speak with protesters about > their politics of trade. > > Locked-out delegates still tourists at noon > (full story) > > >8] Camo-clad cops beat up protesters > by Leslie Howes 2:32pm Tue Nov 30 '99 > > Undercover police beat up a man and a woman > that had been "marked" for arrest by police > minutes earlier. > > > Camo-clad cops beat up protesters (full story) > > >9] WTO attendees react to protestors > by James Culbertson 2:25pm Tue Nov 30 '99 > > A Contrast between WTO attendees and the > protestors on the street. A symbol for the WTOs > attitude toward the world. > > > WTO attendees react to protestors (video: > realvideo) > > >10] Interview with man who was hit with rubber > bullet by James Culbertson 2:17pm Tue Nov 30 > '99 > > Interview with man who was hit with rubber > bullet (video: realvideo) > >11] Police shooting and gassing peaceful > demonstrators. by James Culbertson 2:07pm Tue > Nov 30 '99 > > > Police shooting and gassing peaceful > demonstrators. (video: realvideo) > > > >12] Corporate Media Shenanigans > by Eric Galatas; Independent Media Center, > Seatt 1:51pm Tue Nov 30 '99 > > Police Information Contradicts KOMO Channel 4 > in Seattle Labor March Estimates > > Corporate Media Shenanigans (full story) > http://www.indymedia.org > > > > < more > stories> > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 1 07:35:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09204 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:35:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22224; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:31:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA22017 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:28:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.121] (pm3shep1-163-23.intrepid.net [209.190.163.23]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA11646 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:31:55 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19991130213500.54233.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:31:02 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: bd vs organic foods Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id HAA22020 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2513 Charles - You're just going to have to accept that when you're on the internet, you're in the land of appropriate abbreviation! I guess this is more FAQ fodder, for sure. In the meantime, I swear that 'nbsp' is some sort of ascii debris from a poor conversion from one platform or another; if I'm thinking correctly, then 'nbsp' means something like 'carriage return.' (Ah, man's never ending search for meaning!) CSA: well, the meaning of the meaning has changed drastically in the past year or so, but, for brevity: at its simplest, Community Supported Agriculture is a farming model in which a group of comsumers pledges financial and other support to a farm and a farmer in return for fresh, locally grown produce through the growing season. Implicit in this 'contract' is a mutual sharing of the risks of agriculture. For the more BD-related terms, check out Hugh Lovel's magnificent glossary at the Union Agricultural Institute pages at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/uai/glossary.html and read his masterful "The Nature of Forces" while you're at it!! http://www.igg.com/bdnow/uai/forces.html I hope I have been of some help! -Allan Balliett moderator BD Now! csa@claymont.org >Good question. While were at it. I know that it's a bit of a hasal, but for >the sake of all the rest of the newcommers on the list, it would be most >helpful if those of you who are sages of BD would speak in complete English >instead of abreviated form, i.e., "nbsp," "CSA," and the like. If we are >ever to learn, this would be most helpful,and appreciated. >Thank you >Charles Premoe >capremoe@hotmail.com > > >>From: Guillermo Romero >>Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >>To: bdnow@envirolink.org >>Subject: Re: bd vs organic foods >>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 11:25:11 -0600 >> >> >œ >> >>Hey Tony: How you do that ? >> >>Can someone kindly tell me what "n b s p" mean, I have seen it quite a >>bit, but do not have a clue. >> >>regards >> >>Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >>Comala, Colima, MEXICO >> >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 1 09:25:11 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA11194 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:25:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29367; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:20:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA29275 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:19:54 -0500 (EST) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id h.0.51259b56 (3989) for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:22:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.51259b56.25768926@aol.com> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:22:30 EST Subject: Re: New Paradigm for Farm Ownership To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2514 Good for you, Kate! And good luck. Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 1 10:56:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13162 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:56:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09141; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:52:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (dfprxy01.prodigy.net.mx [148.235.168.40] (may be forged)) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08838 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:49:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.75.40] (du-148-233-75-40.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FM200MGEJZKL6@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:50:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 09:51:01 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Because In-reply-to: <3843B63E.EBFA63F6@xtra.co.nz> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id KAA08840 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2515 Dear David: Thanks for the story. For people not familiar with this account, the story that David kindly posted to the list is an abridged version. I have a private edition (copyrighted in 1967), that I got from Dan Hemmenway of Yankee Permaculture some ten years ago. (He probably still sells it). Jean Giono, "The Man Who Planted Hope and Grew Happiness", Friends of Nature, Brooksville, Maine (04617) The story, originally in French, has also being published since 1954 in different magazines including Vogue (US) and Trees and Life (UK). IMHO this abrigged version, althought it makes the point, looses a bit the quality and the profoundness of the original prose. I highly recommend this story to anyone in this path. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 1 11:51:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14411 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:51:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15281; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:47:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14849 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:44:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.015C00D7@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:46:29 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 1 Dec 99 11:47:11 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 1 Dec 99 11:46:49 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:46:48 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: "clean" cultivation? Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <11E6388E4326@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2516 Hugh wrote: > I'm a fine > chef and just got through pitching a Thanksgiving Day feast where I roasted > a turkey with all the trimmings mashed potatoes and gravy, two kinds of > dressing made from onion/spelt bread baked the night before with olive oil, > honey, yeast and unrefined sea salt .... Yes, as a greatful guest at the Thanksgiving Day feast, I can testify that it was delicious. If you don't know who the VERY popular Martha Stewart is (modern guru of home entertaining), well, suffice it to say that Hugh is her less-glossy counterpart. They both put almost anyone else to shame with their do-it-all-from-scratch-and-make-it-look-simple- ways! Ha ha. While the rest of the population is declaring a cake home-made if it was made from a box, Hugh is churning his own butter, forgodssake! It's amazing and wonderous to behold (and even better to partake!). That's what most impresses me about Hugh. Now let me tell you most impresses me about his farm. I was not there long enough to know what difference that big magic pcv pipe in the ground makes, and it was raining and got dark soon, so I didn't see the full extent of things, so the following is from my limited observations. What most impressed me about Hugh's operation (something which curiously never seems to get included in his posts) is how he has rejected the notion of "clean" cultivation. You won't see bare soil between the turnips or spinach. In fact, except for the driveway and the path from the house to the barn, there is not much bare soil or dirt to be seen anywhere. This SOOO impressed me, since it has long been my vision of the ideal agriculture practice, and one I have never seen anyone do (I'm not counting grass in orchards which is really not even half as visionary). How many farmer's would rather die of shame than see unauthorized green (formerly known as "weeds") in their vegetable beds? How many will go to their graves swearing that if unharvestable greens are allowed in the beds, then harvest crops will be diminished if not obliterated all together? I think this is an extremely strong paradigm/prejudice, so it may take even more than hearing about Hugh's operation or even seeing it to make *believers* out of most. (I'm naturally inclined to this way of thinking, so there was no additional convincing necessary for me.) Contrary to just any ol' abandoned garden run amok in crab grass and Johnson grass Hugh seems to be as purposeful with his "weeds" as his target crop. That is, he allows the proliferation of low-lieing non-target wild plants which do not compete with the harvest target plants but which protect the soil and give less chance to the more aggressive non-target plants. It's a REAL living mulch, and it works WITH the harvest crops. He also sometimes mixes his target-crop seeds in with green cover crop seeds, like clover, and scatters them all together over the bed at planting. Seems a little like what Fukuoka spoke of. (Hugh, correct me if I didn't present any of this incorrectly.) Anyway, I am an eye witness to the fact that the plants, formerly known as "weeds," did NOT hinder or eliminate the harvest plants. In fact, they seemed quite happy for the company! (Caveat: I'm sure that soil fertility issues also play an important role in all this.) "Weeding" is often used as one of the most significant barriers to widespread organic cultivation since it's so labor intensive. Well, duh. So why is it so commonly practiced when there is so obviously another way? How much fertility is lost to heat or oxidation from bare soils? I dunno, I'm not well versed in the scientific and technical sides of all this, but I can FEEL that bare soil is just not what the Universe intended or what is right. I also wonder how many other problems are created from this mania of baring our soils. (I'm sure most, if not all, of you out their still practice bare-soil cultivation and my intent is not to shame you or insult you, just shareing some thoughts and observations.) Back to Thanksgiving at Hugh's... Here's another amazing fact. After picking lots of spinach (none of which I could see had been touched by a hungry insect or other maledy), and assorted other greens (enough for a FEAST of 11 or 12), I washed them all in the kitchen sink, and do you know how much dirt came off? (Remember, it had been raining all day and was raining as we were harvesting...) Would you guess a measley half inch of mud on the bottom of the sink? Nope, less! A half cup of soil? Nope, less! More like a teaspoon. That's right: a teeny tiny teaspoon of very fine grain soil. (And it's not because I'm bad at washing greens!) So maybe I was wrong. Maybe Hugh practices the *cleanest* type of agriculture around! Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 1 11:51:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14427 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:51:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15341; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:47:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14868 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:44:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 9021 invoked from network); 1 Dec 1999 16:47:20 -0000 Received: from i48-06-13.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO new99) (216.26.3.77) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 1999 16:47:20 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991201084656.00917930@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 08:46:56 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Re: nbsp; In-Reply-To: <19991130213500.54233.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2517 This is a text conversion of a line return character. I suspect the user is a computer novice writing email out of a browser tool. Its not intentional. ==================== David Robison Stellar Processes 1033 SW Yamhill Suite 405 Portland, OR 97205 (503) 827-8336 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 1 12:00:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14681 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:00:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16421; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:56:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15870 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:52:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.132] (pm3shep3-163-142.intrepid.net [209.190.163.142]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA31418 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:55:32 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3843B63E.EBFA63F6@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:58:09 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Because Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2518 I believe that Chelsea Green has published a booklength version of this story. It is well illustrated with woodcuts, of course. -Allan >Dear David: > >Thanks for the story. > >For people not familiar with this account, the story that David kindly >posted to the list is an abridged version. I have a private edition >(copyrighted in 1967), that I got from Dan Hemmenway of Yankee >Permaculture some ten years ago. (He probably still sells it). > >Jean Giono, "The Man Who Planted Hope and Grew Happiness", Friends of >Nature, Brooksville, Maine (04617) > >The story, originally in French, has also being published since 1954 in >different magazines including Vogue (US) and Trees and Life (UK). > >IMHO this abrigged version, althought it makes the point, looses a bit the >quality and the profoundness of the original prose. > >I highly recommend this story to anyone in this path. > >Regards > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 1 12:28:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17873 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:27:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19276; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:24:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (dfprxy02.prodigy.net.mx [148.235.168.41] (may be forged)) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19177 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:23:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.75.40] (du-148-233-75-40.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FM20083SOCP9C@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:24:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 11:25:27 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? In-reply-to: <11E6388E4326@agecon.uga.edu> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA19179 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2519 This SOOO impressed me, since it has long >been my vision of the ideal agriculture practice, and one I have >never seen anyone do (I'm not counting grass in orchards which is >really not even half as visionary). How many farmer's would rather >die of shame than see unauthorized green (formerly known as "weeds") >in their vegetable beds? How many will go to their graves swearing >that if unharvestable greens are allowed in the beds, then harvest >crops will be diminished if not obliterated all together? I think >this is an extremely strong paradigm/prejudice, so it may take even >more than hearing about Hugh's operation or even seeing it to make >*believers* out of most. (I'm naturally inclined to this way of >thinking, so there was no additional convincing necessary for me.) Dear Anita: I do need some more convincing info here. I am not saying that what you are saying and Hugh is doing is wrong, I just want to know more about it. The details about what to weed what not to weed, when to do it, etc., It makes sense not to have bare soil, but in all honesty, weeding also makes sense to me since weeds can easily take over the crops around here. I do a lot of mulching and dense planting which also takes care of much of the non intentional grow. Thanks for your answers Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 1 13:14:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19157 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:14:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24091; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:10:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23742 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:07:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.015C1D5E@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:10:20 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 1 Dec 99 13:11:03 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 1 Dec 99 13:10:55 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:10:50 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? Priority: normal References: <11E6388E4326@agecon.uga.edu> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <11E79F733295@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2520 > Dear Anita: > > I do need some more convincing info here. I am not saying that what you are saying and Hugh is doing is wrong, I just want to know more about it. The details > about what to weed what not to weed, when to do it, etc., It makes sense not to have bare soil, but in all honesty, weeding also makes sense to me since weeds can easily take over the crops around he> > Thanks for your answers > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Dear Guillermo, I think I will give Hugh the stage for this one, since he has the greater hands-on practical knowledge. I too look forward to his reply! For those with open minds, I know this will be wonderful and valuable information. (I'm rubbing my hands in happy anticipation!) Hugh? Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 1 13:19:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19343 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:19:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24708; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:14:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24480 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:13:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.53] (r-67.50.alltel.net [166.102.67.50]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id MAA27551 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:16:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <11E6388E4326@agecon.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:18:59 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2521 Dear Folks, Yes, you do need to know what grows and how to control it. Look in the glossary of my book at the definition of "control." Right off you will see how terribly misguided we are in our thinking in agriculture. We have collapsed the definition of control with the definition of kill. For most what they mean by control is kill. >From there you have to learn what is true in your locality. How do the various crop and non-crop species get started, continue and cease? This one has to play with, and there are various rules that one learns as one goes along. My earlier post about growing corn as a field and soil improvement crop? Well, corn, mixed with soybeans, is wonderful for eliminating bermuda, comfrey and probably even johnson grass. These hideous, out-of-control weeds can be brought under control quite nicely while interplanting corn and soybeans and both the corn and the soybeans can be harvested! And the winter off-season rye/clover/turnip cover also out-distances the above "weeds." Lawnmowing in one's vegetable market garden is great for weed "control." Think how much easier this is than clean cultivation and how much clipping material is left behind for earthworm and other critter fodder. About all I can help with is the general rules because I don't know the individual circumstances everywhere. But the general rule is DON'T think control means to kill. Green is what is really clean. Diversity and cooperation is nature's formula for success. And when one thing doesn't work try again differently until you find what does work. Clean cultivation is not a sustainable, let alone a regenerative practice. Uniformity and competition is seriously inadvisable. To find out these things requires getting free from the mindset of following rote formulas and learning to see what works and to think for oneself. Maybe it all goes back to uncollapsing one's definitions of those words one uses to define ones thoughts. Sincerely, Hugh Lovel Anita wrote: > This SOOO impressed me, since it has long >>been my vision of the ideal agriculture practice, and one I have >>never seen anyone do (I'm not counting grass in orchards which is >>really not even half as visionary). How many farmer's would rather >>die of shame than see unauthorized green (formerly known as "weeds") >>in their vegetable beds? How many will go to their graves swearing >>that if unharvestable greens are allowed in the beds, then harvest >>crops will be diminished if not obliterated all together? I think >>this is an extremely strong paradigm/prejudice, so it may take even >>more than hearing about Hugh's operation or even seeing it to make >>*believers* out of most. (I'm naturally inclined to this way of >>thinking, so there was no additional convincing necessary for me.) > Guillermo wrote: > >Dear Anita: > >I do need some more convincing info here. I am not saying that what you >are saying and Hugh is doing is wrong, I just want to know more about it. >The details about what to weed what not to weed, when to do it, etc., It >makes sense not to have bare soil, but in all honesty, weeding also makes >sense to me since weeds can easily take over the crops around here. I do >a lot of mulching and dense planting which also takes care of much of the >non intentional grow. > >Thanks for your answers > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 1 13:27:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19752 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:27:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25797; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:24:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25668 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:23:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.015C214B@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:25:44 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 1 Dec 99 13:26:26 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 1 Dec 99 13:26:02 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:25:54 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <11E7DFEA322C@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2522 Hugh, Could you maybe give more examples from your specific site? Besides the corn and soybeans, what is growing with your spinach? With your turnips? With the other greens? What are some of the wild species you let grow, and for what specific reasons? And how much labor does your version of "control" require? And do you also use (the conventional idea of) mulch? Maybe some more questions will come later (or from Guillermo or others?), but this is a start. Anita > Dear Folks, > > Yes, you do need to know what grows and how to control it. Look in the > glossary of my book at the definition of "control." Right off you will see > how terribly misguided we are in our thinking in agriculture. We have > collapsed the definition of control with the definition of kill. For most > what they mean by control is kill. > > >From there you have to learn what is true in your locality. How do the > various crop and non-crop species get started, continue and cease? This one > has to play with, and there are various rules that one learns as one goes > along. My earlier post about growing corn as a field and soil improvement > crop? Well, corn, mixed with soybeans, is wonderful for eliminating > bermuda, comfrey and probably even johnson grass. These hideous, > out-of-control weeds can be brought under control quite nicely while > interplanting corn and soybeans and both the corn and the soybeans can be > harvested! And the winter off-season rye/clover/turnip cover also > out-distances the above "weeds." > > Lawnmowing in one's vegetable market garden is great for weed "control." > Think how much easier this is than clean cultivation and how much clipping > material is left behind for earthworm and other critter fodder. About all I > can help with is the general rules because I don't know the individual > circumstances everywhere. But the general rule is DON'T think control means > to kill. Green is what is really clean. Diversity and cooperation is > nature's formula for success. And when one thing doesn't work try again > differently until you find what does work. Clean cultivation is not a > sustainable, let alone a regenerative practice. Uniformity and competition > is seriously inadvisable. To find out these things requires getting free > from the mindset of following rote formulas and learning to see what works > and to think for oneself. Maybe it all goes back to uncollapsing one's > definitions of those words one uses to define ones thoughts. > > Sincerely, > > Hugh Lovel > > > > Anita wrote: > > > This SOOO impressed me, since it has long > >>been my vision of the ideal agriculture practice, and one I have > >>never seen anyone do (I'm not counting grass in orchards which is > >>really not even half as visionary). How many farmer's would rather > >>die of shame than see unauthorized green (formerly known as "weeds") > >>in their vegetable beds? How many will go to their graves swearing > >>that if unharvestable greens are allowed in the beds, then harvest > >>crops will be diminished if not obliterated all together? I think > >>this is an extremely strong paradigm/prejudice, so it may take even > >>more than hearing about Hugh's operation or even seeing it to make > >>*believers* out of most. (I'm naturally inclined to this way of > >>thinking, so there was no additional convincing necessary for me.) > > > > Guillermo wrote: > > > >Dear Anita: > > > >I do need some more convincing info here. I am not saying that what you > >are saying and Hugh is doing is wrong, I just want to know more about it. > >The details about what to weed what not to weed, when to do it, etc., It > >makes sense not to have bare soil, but in all honesty, weeding also makes > >sense to me since weeds can easily take over the crops around here. I do > >a lot of mulching and dense planting which also takes care of much of the > >non intentional grow. > > > >Thanks for your answers > > > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 1 15:42:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23422 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:42:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11586; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:37:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10979 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (cust54.nrvmax4.tor1.netrover.com [205.209.27.54]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA13467 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:35:50 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-From: villager@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:37:16 -0500 Message-ID: <01bf3c3b$db384be0$3215d1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2523 For a few weeks now, i had been wanting to inquire about just this topic: In which ways are Fukuoka's "natural farming" and "biodynamic practise" complementary.? I really liked reading F's "One Straw Revolution." Please, Hugh, comment [from a bd perspective] also on F's perspective that composting is unnecessary. Fukuoka qualifies much of his experience in the context of his particular climate. He leaves the challenge of implementation to the rest of us in more temperate zones.Though my main focus has been CSA veggies, I would very much like to experiment with rice as he does it, or with wild rice as is found here in Canada, north of Toronto. What started out as the evidence of inadequate time to cultivate that designated green cover of herbs turned into a habit of mowing them between rows, but gradually a smile crept over my face as i realized that this was better! .........and i really didn't have to be apologetic when any csa members happened to see where their veggies came from. The association, in thought, with general " disorder" is a tough one for most people to handle. All lifeforms are in some symbiotic state of bio- dynamics. Who can judge all the implications? We begin to see a bit more as we relinquish our grip on this "clean" "order" ...... manfred palmer -----Original Message----- From: Anita Graf (Staff) To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 1:27 PM Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? Hugh, Could you maybe give more examples from your specific site? Besides the corn and soybeans, what is growing with your spinach? With your turnips? With the other greens? What are some of the wild species you let grow, and for what specific reasons? And how much labor does your version of "control" require? And do you also use (the conventional idea of) mulch? Maybe some more questions will come later (or from Guillermo or others?), but this is a start. Anita > Dear Folks, > > Yes, you do need to know what grows and how to control it. Look in the > glossary of my book at the definition of "control." Right off you will see > how terribly misguided we are in our thinking in agriculture. We have > collapsed the definition of control with the definition of kill. For most > what they mean by control is kill. > > >From there you have to learn what is true in your locality. How do the > various crop and non-crop species get started, continue and cease? This one > has to play with, and there are various rules that one learns as one goes > along. My earlier post about growing corn as a field and soil improvement > crop? Well, corn, mixed with soybeans, is wonderful for eliminating > bermuda, comfrey and probably even johnson grass. These hideous, > out-of-control weeds can be brought under control quite nicely while > interplanting corn and soybeans and both the corn and the soybeans can be > harvested! And the winter off-season rye/clover/turnip cover also > out-distances the above "weeds." > > Lawnmowing in one's vegetable market garden is great for weed "control." > Think how much easier this is than clean cultivation and how much clipping > material is left behind for earthworm and other critter fodder. About all I > can help with is the general rules because I don't know the individual > circumstances everywhere. But the general rule is DON'T think control means > to kill. Green is what is really clean. Diversity and cooperation is > nature's formula for success. And when one thing doesn't work try again > differently until you find what does work. Clean cultivation is not a > sustainable, let alone a regenerative practice. Uniformity and competition > is seriously inadvisable. To find out these things requires getting free > from the mindset of following rote formulas and learning to see what works > and to think for oneself. Maybe it all goes back to uncollapsing one's > definitions of those words one uses to define ones thoughts. > > Sincerely, > > Hugh Lovel > > > > Anita wrote: > > > This SOOO impressed me, since it has long > >>been my vision of the ideal agriculture practice, and one I have > >>never seen anyone do (I'm not counting grass in orchards which is > >>really not even half as visionary). How many farmer's would rather > >>die of shame than see unauthorized green (formerly known as "weeds") > >>in their vegetable beds? How many will go to their graves swearing > >>that if unharvestable greens are allowed in the beds, then harvest > >>crops will be diminished if not obliterated all together? I think > >>this is an extremely strong paradigm/prejudice, so it may take even > >>more than hearing about Hugh's operation or even seeing it to make > >>*believers* out of most. (I'm naturally inclined to this way of > >>thinking, so there was no additional convincing necessary for me.) > > > > Guillermo wrote: > > > >Dear Anita: > > > >I do need some more convincing info here. I am not saying that what you > >are saying and Hugh is doing is wrong, I just want to know more about it. > >The details about what to weed what not to weed, when to do it, etc., It > >makes sense not to have bare soil, but in all honesty, weeding also makes > >sense to me since weeds can easily take over the crops around here. I do > >a lot of mulching and dense planting which also takes care of much of the > >non intentional grow. > > > >Thanks for your answers > > > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 1 16:18:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24151 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:18:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA16907; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:14:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16362 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:10:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.167] (pm3shep4-163-167.intrepid.net [209.190.163.167]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21308 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:14:03 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:15:56 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF FWD: Seattle Protest media bias Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2524 >From: John Schinnerer >To: BIOREGIONAL >Subject: Seattle Protest media bias >Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:50:46 -0800 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Reply-To: bioregional@csf.colorado.edu >Sender: owner-bioregional@csf.colorado.edu > >Aloha, > >I spent yesterday downtown in protest of WTO policies, activities and >whatnot (I live in Seattle), so here's a few words about my experience. > >It was indeed bizarre to go home and watch the 11:00 pm news, showing >countless clips of the few hot spots and vandals and barely a handful of >clips of the tiny peaceful environmental rally, the huge peaceful labor >rally, the long and peaceful march, the nonviolent human blockades, the >creative costumes and actions and all the rest of the "good" stuff. > >It was even more interesting to see the two very brief news clips of >individual delegates attempting to get through the nonviolent human >barricades...the first one losing his temper and throwing wild punches at >the people holding him back, and the second one, in a similar situation, >pulling a gun in frustration...I wonder how many of the delegates are >packing heat? This man certainly was, and it wasn't a derringer either. > >It was eerie to stand and look across the crowd of drumming, dancing or just >sitting or standing people blocking the Pike & 4th intersection and see the >uneven line of police in full riot gear and gas masks, with two armored vans >parked right behind them. I felt like I had been transported into a >Costa-Gavras film with an added dose of surreality (it got even more surreal >when Vandana Shiva came walking nonchalantly by, taking pictures of it all >with her little camera). > >So if you weren't there - what I observed was the commercial media people >doing what they do best: focusing on the few sensationalistic, violent >aspects of the event that best complement the violence they seems to prefer >in all that they present - and not presenting the rest. > >John Schinnerer > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 1 16:27:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24430 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:27:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18056; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:23:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17448 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:19:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:23:35 -0500 Message-ID: From: Kirsten Saylor To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: RE: A Biodynamic food basket Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:23:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2525 Mark, What about going CSA? Check out the CSA listing at any of these fine sites! http://www.biodynamics.com/csa.html www.csacenter.org www.sare.org www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/csa Kirsten Saylor Sustainable Agriculture Network -----Original Message----- From: LMvine@aol.com [mailto:LMvine@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 10:33 AM To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: A Biodynamic food basket In a message dated 11/24/99 10:12:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, whirlderv@ap.net writes: << Greetings Farmers: > > After hearing Hugh talk about some of his farming secrets > the other day and how the "lower class" turnip is really a > prince in disguise (thanks to right-effort) I am realizing > how starved for "good veggies" I am. > > Actually I'm one of the new people that doesn't have any > experience eating this stuff. Does anyone mail-order their > tasty goods? I'm looking for a grade or two above "rodale > organic" :) > > Starving day to day, > > Mark >> Spiritual Food mail order service in MD has BD food. 888-384-9642, ask for a list. Dan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 1 16:46:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24992 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:46:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20722; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:42:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20635 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:41:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.127.25]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991201214903.NTKF1752249.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:49:03 +1300 Message-ID: <384596A6.1388@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:44:06 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Potentised Preps Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2526 Woooow Have I returned to an alternate dimension. All of a sudden the main protagonist to pot. preps is providing the supporting data for them???? More when I have a moment Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 1 22:07:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01895 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:07:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA22278; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:02:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA21992 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:59:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from micron - 63.20.184.190 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:02:21 -0800 Message-ID: <002301bf3c71$bef288c0$beb8143f@micron> From: "Wells" To: References: Subject: Re: OFF FWD: Seattle Protest media bias Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:03:00 -0800 Organization: Microsoft Corporation X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2527 Its not the peaceful people that sell newspapers!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 12:15 PM Subject: OFF FWD: Seattle Protest media bias > >From: John Schinnerer > >To: BIOREGIONAL > >Subject: Seattle Protest media bias > >Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:50:46 -0800 > >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >Reply-To: bioregional@csf.colorado.edu > >Sender: owner-bioregional@csf.colorado.edu > > > >Aloha, > > > >I spent yesterday downtown in protest of WTO policies, activities and > >whatnot (I live in Seattle), so here's a few words about my experience. > > > >It was indeed bizarre to go home and watch the 11:00 pm news, showing > >countless clips of the few hot spots and vandals and barely a handful of > >clips of the tiny peaceful environmental rally, the huge peaceful labor > >rally, the long and peaceful march, the nonviolent human blockades, the > >creative costumes and actions and all the rest of the "good" stuff. > > > >It was even more interesting to see the two very brief news clips of > >individual delegates attempting to get through the nonviolent human > >barricades...the first one losing his temper and throwing wild punches at > >the people holding him back, and the second one, in a similar situation, > >pulling a gun in frustration...I wonder how many of the delegates are > >packing heat? This man certainly was, and it wasn't a derringer either. > > > >It was eerie to stand and look across the crowd of drumming, dancing or just > >sitting or standing people blocking the Pike & 4th intersection and see the > >uneven line of police in full riot gear and gas masks, with two armored vans > >parked right behind them. I felt like I had been transported into a > >Costa-Gavras film with an added dose of surreality (it got even more surreal > >when Vandana Shiva came walking nonchalantly by, taking pictures of it all > >with her little camera). > > > >So if you weren't there - what I observed was the commercial media people > >doing what they do best: focusing on the few sensationalistic, violent > >aspects of the event that best complement the violence they seems to prefer > >in all that they present - and not presenting the rest. > > > >John Schinnerer > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 00:56:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04819 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:56:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA11157; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:52:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA10887 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:47:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.53] (r-67.88.alltel.net [166.102.67.88]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id XAA16856 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:50:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01bf3c3b$db384be0$3215d1cd@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:36:33 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2528 >For a few weeks now, i had been wanting to inquire about just this topic: In >which ways are Fukuoka's "natural farming" and "biodynamic practise" >complementary.? > I really liked reading F's "One Straw Revolution." > Please, Hugh, comment [from a bd perspective] also on F's perspective that >composting is unnecessary. Manfred, When the life forces are high they bring in a much stronger stream of life forces. The BD preps work this way. Because the preps are so super rich in life force they bring in a strong stream of vitality when they are sprayed. And when the soil is blanketed with vegetation it doesn't need compost nearly so much. Vegetation goes in cycles. Look to Andre Voisin's observations, and Alan Savory's observations about rotational grazing and the cycles of growth, cutting back to the surface and regrowth. Letting things grow up tall and turn brown and just sit there is a little better than clean cultivation, but not a whole lot. What is ideal is to maximize growth, which requires keeping growth happening as vigorously as much of the time as possible. >Fukuoka qualifies much of his experience in the context of his particular >climate. >He leaves the challenge of implementation to the rest of us in more >temperate zones.Though my main focus has been CSA veggies, I would very much >like to experiment with rice as he does it, or with wild rice as is found >here in Canada, north of Toronto. >What started out as the evidence of inadequate time to cultivate that >designated green cover of herbs turned into a habit of mowing them between >rows, but gradually a smile crept over my face as i realized that this was >better! .........and i really didn't have to be apologetic when any csa >members happened to see where their veggies came from. The association, in >thought, with general " disorder" is a tough one for most people to handle. >All lifeforms are in some symbiotic state of bio- dynamics. Who can judge >all the implications? We begin to see a bit more as we relinquish our grip >on this "clean" "order" ...... manfred palmer Absolutely! Right on, guy. Best, Hugh Lovel >-----Original Message----- >From: Anita Graf (Staff) >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 1:27 PM >Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? > > >Hugh, > >Could you maybe give more examples from your specific site? Besides >the corn and soybeans, what is growing with your spinach? With your >turnips? With the other greens? What are some of the wild species >you let grow, and for what specific reasons? And how much labor does >your version of "control" require? And do you also use (the >conventional idea of) mulch? > >Maybe some more questions will come later (or from Guillermo or >others?), but this is a start. > >Anita > > >> Dear Folks, >> >> Yes, you do need to know what grows and how to control it. Look in the >> glossary of my book at the definition of "control." Right off you will see >> how terribly misguided we are in our thinking in agriculture. We have >> collapsed the definition of control with the definition of kill. For most >> what they mean by control is kill. >> >> >From there you have to learn what is true in your locality. How do the >> various crop and non-crop species get started, continue and cease? This >one >> has to play with, and there are various rules that one learns as one goes >> along. My earlier post about growing corn as a field and soil improvement >> crop? Well, corn, mixed with soybeans, is wonderful for eliminating >> bermuda, comfrey and probably even johnson grass. These hideous, >> out-of-control weeds can be brought under control quite nicely while >> interplanting corn and soybeans and both the corn and the soybeans can be >> harvested! And the winter off-season rye/clover/turnip cover also >> out-distances the above "weeds." >> >> Lawnmowing in one's vegetable market garden is great for weed "control." >> Think how much easier this is than clean cultivation and how much clipping >> material is left behind for earthworm and other critter fodder. About all >I >> can help with is the general rules because I don't know the individual >> circumstances everywhere. But the general rule is DON'T think control >means >> to kill. Green is what is really clean. Diversity and cooperation is >> nature's formula for success. And when one thing doesn't work try again >> differently until you find what does work. Clean cultivation is not a >> sustainable, let alone a regenerative practice. Uniformity and competition >> is seriously inadvisable. To find out these things requires getting free >> from the mindset of following rote formulas and learning to see what works >> and to think for oneself. Maybe it all goes back to uncollapsing one's >> definitions of those words one uses to define ones thoughts. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Hugh Lovel >> >> >> >> Anita wrote: >> >> > This SOOO impressed me, since it has long >> >>been my vision of the ideal agriculture practice, and one I have >> >>never seen anyone do (I'm not counting grass in orchards which is >> >>really not even half as visionary). How many farmer's would rather >> >>die of shame than see unauthorized green (formerly known as "weeds") >> >>in their vegetable beds? How many will go to their graves swearing >> >>that if unharvestable greens are allowed in the beds, then harvest >> >>crops will be diminished if not obliterated all together? I think >> >>this is an extremely strong paradigm/prejudice, so it may take even >> >>more than hearing about Hugh's operation or even seeing it to make >> >>*believers* out of most. (I'm naturally inclined to this way of >> >>thinking, so there was no additional convincing necessary for me.) >> > >> >> Guillermo wrote: >> > >> >Dear Anita: >> > >> >I do need some more convincing info here. I am not saying that what you >> >are saying and Hugh is doing is wrong, I just want to know more about it. >> >The details about what to weed what not to weed, when to do it, etc., It >> >makes sense not to have bare soil, but in all honesty, weeding also makes >> >sense to me since weeds can easily take over the crops around here. I do >> >a lot of mulching and dense planting which also takes care of much of the >> >non intentional grow. >> > >> >Thanks for your answers >> > >> >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >> >Comala, Colima, MEXICO >> > >> >> >> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 00:56:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04827 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA11192; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:52:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA10888 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:47:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.53] (r-67.88.alltel.net [166.102.67.88]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id XAA16774 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:50:09 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <11E7DFEA322C@agecon.uga.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:23:56 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2529 >Hugh, > >Could you maybe give more examples from your specific site? Besides >the corn and soybeans, what is growing with your spinach? With your >turnips? With the other greens? What are some of the wild species >you let grow, and for what specific reasons? And how much labor does >your version of "control" require? And do you also use (the >conventional idea of) mulch? > >Maybe some more questions will come later (or from Guillermo or >others?), but this is a start. > >Anita Dear Anita, Yes, I use mulch on potatoes, squash, cukes, zukes, melons, tomatoes and peppers. Commonly I cultivate, mulch and plant all at once. In the case of potatoes I plant and then mulch, as potatoes come up through mulch just fine. With spinach I plant in September. First frost is early October, and this gets all the tall weeds. Spinach is really only a companion crop with my next year's garlic. I plant the spinach in a tripple row down my 40 inch wide beds and then poke in the garlic cloves every 6 to 8 inches in the rows. Both are super cold hardy. I sow dutch white clover in the spinach/garlic crop, but the "weeds" that come up are chickweed, croesus, wild geranium and some other low ones. I may have to pull some grasses or vetch, but it is pretty much leave everything uncultivated until May spinach seed crop time and June garlic harvest. The clover and chickweed in particular make a blanket that supresses tall weeds in the spring. I think I mentioned elsewhere that I mow between my beds and this is enough work in a six acre market garden without weeding and hoeing. I have a rear bagging mower for catching clippings in salad patches, which I do have to hoe a bit. With the fall turnips, rape, kale, chinese radishes (china rose) and mustards I mix these seeds in with winter rye and crimson clover. They are all companions. Then I simply sow, till in and come back and pick. There is a rich vegetative cover that is also highly productive of the best quality veggies. Collards I direct seed and then thin and transplant. I like white clover covers in these beds, though dandelions and even blue grass or crab grass are no problem. Often I mulch with mower clippings from the salad greens. That's feeding the earthworms where I want their manaure to feed the next crop. The main thing, and I cannot overemphasize this, is to be observant and creative. Timing is a big deal. Everything has its time. For example, one can direct seed all the oriental veggies AFTER the summer solstice and they will not bolt. BEFORE the solstice and they bolt like crazy. Sow leeks in very sandy soil and transplant into mulched beds. Sweet basil is similar but sow it in clay/loam and transplant into mulched beds. And sometimes I grow the mulch right in place and use the lawnmower, sickle-bar, scythe, whatever to harvest it and then I put it to use. Sometimes I guess wrong with crop/location/timing/companions. The more I've tried different things the more things I've found that work. The secret is I will try almost anything rather than have bare soil exposed for any length of time, going downhill instead of replenishing its vitality. Bare soil for a few weeks is okay. There's a lot of things that work pretty well that way. But bare soil for a whole summer makes me cringe with the knowledge of the poverty I'm heading toward. Bare soil gives off energy. Get a cover on it and energy is absorbed and builds up. Azaleas grow well in the south with almost no fertility inputs--maybe some cottonseed meal. But who ever heard of planting an azalea bush without some mulch around it? It wouldn't grow very well. The mulch absorbs and holds in the vitality the azalea bush needs to grow. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 02:56:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA05912 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 02:56:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA17328; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 02:51:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA17243 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 02:50:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.81.198]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991202075932.WXNO1928399.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:59:32 +1300 Message-ID: <3846253B.7A68@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 20:52:27 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Pot preps Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2530 JT wrote > > the interactions between these four "Bodies" gives his threefold > nature. > > i.e. > between his Physical Body and Etheric Body - Thinking > > between his Etheric Body and his Astral Body - Feeling > > between his Astral Body and his Ego - > Willing. (2) > I find this a most interesting concept and wonder if you can enlarge uponthis somewhat more especially the relatationship of the thinking to the physical and ethierc body. I had always seen the thinking associated as a process of Ego incarnation and I must experienced the etheric body as dulling the thinking. Please explain. > > The Preparations fall into two Sets:- A focus for the working of two > groups of "Entities" in Nature > > The first set of Dandelion (warmth ether) , Oak Bark (light ether) and > Valerian (tone ether) > Clay (life ether) might now be accepted as part of this set. Can you also enlarge on this too please. especially Oak bark as light ether and Valerian as tone? Are these your 'imaginings' Jim? Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 03:00:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA05962 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 03:00:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA17580; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 02:56:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA17345 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 02:52:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.81.198]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991202080147.WXVC1928399.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:01:47 +1300 Message-ID: <384625C2.2A8A@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 20:54:42 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Pot preps Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2531 > From previous > work, we have found that the lower potencies do not work on land that has > not received the benefit of the BD preparations, particularly the 502-507. We have reports from our spray contractor that lower potency peppers sprayed on a chemical orchard through a chemical sprayer provided a similiar effect to what he experiences on preps which have preps. IS this the good quality pepper or?????????? Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 05:04:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA06951 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 05:04:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA22375; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 05:00:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA22215 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 04:56:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from barrylia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ESTWD8EQ; Thu, 02 Dec 1999 04:59:08 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 01:13:27 -0800 Subject: Re: Because Message-ID: <19991202.015806.-4091897.2.barrylia@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4-12 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Barry D Lia Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2532 Yes, they have. And there was a wonderful animated version of this story on PBS a few years ago: The Man who Planted Trees. It was on a children's series called Wonderworks, I believe. Beautiful animation where one scene metamorphoses into another (eg. dog's fur becoming waving field of grain). _______________________________________________________________________ Barry Lia \ barrylia@juno.com \ Seattle WA On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:58:09 -0400 Allan Balliett writes: >I believe that Chelsea Green has published a booklength version of this >story. It is well illustrated with woodcuts, of course. -Allan > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 05:04:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA06953 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 05:04:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA22422; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 05:00:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA22219 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 04:56:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from barrylia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ESTWD8DC; Thu, 02 Dec 1999 04:59:08 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 01:12:29 -0800 Subject: Re: OFF FWD: Seattle Protest media bias Message-ID: <19991202.015806.-4091897.1.barrylia@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-10,12,14-15,17-18,24-26,28,30-33,35-40 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Barry D Lia Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2533 I LIVE IN SEATTLE AS WELL. COMMENTS BEL0W: On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:15:56 -0400 Allan Balliett writes: >>From: John Schinnerer >>To: BIOREGIONAL >>Subject: Seattle Protest media bias [snip] >>It was even more interesting to see the two very brief news clips of >>individual delegates attempting to get through the nonviolent human >>barricades...the first one losing his temper and throwing wild punches at >>the people holding him back, and the second one, in a similar situation, >>pulling a gun in frustration...I wonder how many of the delegates are >>packing heat? This man certainly was, and it wasn't a derringer either. I TRIED TO ATTEND TUESDAY MORNING AS AN NGO DELEGATE REPRESENTING THE WESTERN SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE WORKING GROUP. I WAS NOT LET THROUGH, THOUGH I CLEARLY TOLD THE PERSONS HOLDING THE LINE THAT I WAS THERE TO SPEAK FOR SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE. IT IS A LITTLE DIFFICULT TO CALL SUCH A HUMAN BARRICADE "NON-VIOLENT." I WAS STOPPED, THEY STOOD IN MY WAY. I WAS THE NON-VIOLENT ONE, IN A SENSE, AS I TURNED AWAY. >> >>It was eerie to stand and look across the crowd of drumming, dancing or just >>sitting or standing people blocking the Pike & 4th intersection and see the AT LEAST THEY COULD HAVE BEEN BETTER DRUMMERS... I AGREE THAT MEDIA FOCUSSES ON THE TROUBLE AND DISTORTS THE VALID PROTEST. _______________________________________________________________________ Barry Lia \ barrylia@juno.com \ Seattle WA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 05:04:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA06967 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 05:04:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA22458; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 05:00:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA22223 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 04:56:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from barrylia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ESTWD8G3; Thu, 02 Dec 1999 04:59:08 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 01:58:05 -0800 Subject: Fw: Fwd:Alliance for Bio-Integrity testimony Message-ID: <19991202.015806.-4091897.4.barrylia@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 11-20,23-24,26-27,29-30,32-33,40-41,43-44,48-49,54-55,59-60,65-66,69-70,73-74,77-100 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Barry D Lia Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2534 It was too bad I didn't have the testimony below (now posted on the web site) with me tonight to confront the Undersecretary of Agriculture as he championed our "science-based" regulatory system against that of the EU. This was at a panel discussion on the University of Washington campus titled "The United States, the European Union, and the WTO: Genetically Modified Products, British Beef, and American Hormones." Our Undersecretary implied that Americans have confidence in our regulators, and that Europeans don't have confidence in theirs. It was appalling how blatent the US business-protection stand contrasted with the EU's consumer-protection attitude (I'll make my notes available soon). I was ashamed to be an American. It is one thing to read criticism. It is quite another to witness the problem in the flesh. _______________________________________________________________________ Barry Lia \ barrylia@juno.com \ Seattle WA ----Original Message Follows---- Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:57:59 PST *Please Distribute Widely* EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF ALLIANCE FOR BIO-INTEGRITY TO CHALLENGE U.S. FOOD & DRUG ADMINISTRATION (FDA) OFFICIALS AT NOVEMBER 30TH MEETING ON GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOODS IN WASHINGTON, D.C. WILL CONFRONT AGENCY WITH EVIDENCE IT COVERED-UP MEMORANDA FROM FDA EXPERTS WARNING ABOUT UNIQUE HEALTH RISKS OF BIOTECH FOODS PHOTOCOPIES OF THESE INTERNAL FDA DOCUMENTS NOW PUBLISHED ON ALLIANCE'S WEBSITE: http://www.biointegrity.org [C-Span Cable Television will broadcast live during some or all of the hearing] FDA Commissioner Dr. Jane Henney and her top officials will receive strong criticism of the agency’s policy on genetically engineered foods from a public interest attorney at the open meeting to be held by the agency in Washington, D.C. on November 30. Steven M. Druker, executive director of the Alliance for Bio-Integrity, will fault the FDA for ignoring scientifically justified safety concerns in approving genetically engineered foods. He has been invited to present his views as a member of the panel on Scientific, Safety, and Regulatory Issues. His criticisms will be aired on the day the World Trade Organization conference starts in Seattle, with the U.S. delegation insisting that FDA policy on genetically engineered foods is science-based and that widespread concerns in Europe and Asia are unscientific and irrational. Mr. Druker will specifically critique the FDA for turning its back to repeated warnings from its own scientists about the unique risks of genetically engineered foods and for then proclaiming itself "...not aware of any informatio showing that foods derived by these new methods differ from other foods in any meaningful or uniform way." These warnings recently came to light when the FDA was required to disclose its internal files during the course of a lawsuit headed by Druker’s organization, Alliance for Bio-Integrity, et al. v. Shalala et al. The suit, which is pending in U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C., demands that the FDA institute mandatory safety testing and labeling of all genetically engineered foods. Mr. Druker organized an unprecedented coalition of eminent scientists and religious leaders to stand as plaintiffs, and he is also serving as one of the attorneys. After Druker and co-panelists have made their statements, Commissioner Henney and other FDA officials will have an opportunity to dialogue with them. The panel discussion will occur during the morning session, which runs from 10:00 A.M. until 1 P.M at the Cohen Auditorium in the Wilbur J. Cohen Building, 330 Independence Ave S.W., Washington, D.C. Note: Exact copies of several FDA documents expressing concern about risks of bioengineered foods are now on the Alliance for Bio-Integrity website: http://www.biointegrity.org Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 Want Social Change? Join a CSA! ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 06:37:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA07487 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 06:37:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA28686; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 06:30:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f34.hotmail.com [209.185.131.97]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA26508 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 06:13:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 43543 invoked by uid 0); 2 Dec 1999 11:16:23 -0000 Message-ID: <19991202111623.43542.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 210.55.227.8 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:16:23 PST X-Originating-IP: [210.55.227.8] From: "Neta Wharehoka" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:16:23 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2535 Please...no more mail. thanx. (yes i am being very friendly for a reason) Cut it out. ----Original Message Follows---- From: Hugh Lovel Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:23:56 -0500 >Hugh, > >Could you maybe give more examples from your specific site? Besides >the corn and soybeans, what is growing with your spinach? With your >turnips? With the other greens? What are some of the wild species >you let grow, and for what specific reasons? And how much labor does >your version of "control" require? And do you also use (the >conventional idea of) mulch? > >Maybe some more questions will come later (or from Guillermo or >others?), but this is a start. > >Anita Dear Anita, Yes, I use mulch on potatoes, squash, cukes, zukes, melons, tomatoes and peppers. Commonly I cultivate, mulch and plant all at once. In the case of potatoes I plant and then mulch, as potatoes come up through mulch just fine. With spinach I plant in September. First frost is early October, and this gets all the tall weeds. Spinach is really only a companion crop with my next year's garlic. I plant the spinach in a tripple row down my 40 inch wide beds and then poke in the garlic cloves every 6 to 8 inches in the rows. Both are super cold hardy. I sow dutch white clover in the spinach/garlic crop, but the "weeds" that come up are chickweed, croesus, wild geranium and some other low ones. I may have to pull some grasses or vetch, but it is pretty much leave everything uncultivated until May spinach seed crop time and June garlic harvest. The clover and chickweed in particular make a blanket that supresses tall weeds in the spring. I think I mentioned elsewhere that I mow between my beds and this is enough work in a six acre market garden without weeding and hoeing. I have a rear bagging mower for catching clippings in salad patches, which I do have to hoe a bit. With the fall turnips, rape, kale, chinese radishes (china rose) and mustards I mix these seeds in with winter rye and crimson clover. They are all companions. Then I simply sow, till in and come back and pick. There is a rich vegetative cover that is also highly productive of the best quality veggies. Collards I direct seed and then thin and transplant. I like white clover covers in these beds, though dandelions and even blue grass or crab grass are no problem. Often I mulch with mower clippings from the salad greens. That's feeding the earthworms where I want their manaure to feed the next crop. The main thing, and I cannot overemphasize this, is to be observant and creative. Timing is a big deal. Everything has its time. For example, one can direct seed all the oriental veggies AFTER the summer solstice and they will not bolt. BEFORE the solstice and they bolt like crazy. Sow leeks in very sandy soil and transplant into mulched beds. Sweet basil is similar but sow it in clay/loam and transplant into mulched beds. And sometimes I grow the mulch right in place and use the lawnmower, sickle-bar, scythe, whatever to harvest it and then I put it to use. Sometimes I guess wrong with crop/location/timing/companions. The more I've tried different things the more things I've found that work. The secret is I will try almost anything rather than have bare soil exposed for any length of time, going downhill instead of replenishing its vitality. Bare soil for a few weeks is okay. There's a lot of things that work pretty well that way. But bare soil for a whole summer makes me cringe with the knowledge of the poverty I'm heading toward. Bare soil gives off energy. Get a cover on it and energy is absorbed and builds up. Azaleas grow well in the south with almost no fertility inputs--maybe some cottonseed meal. But who ever heard of planting an azalea bush without some mulch around it? It wouldn't grow very well. The mulch absorbs and holds in the vitality the azalea bush needs to grow. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 06:37:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA07495 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 06:37:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA28808; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 06:31:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f79.hotmail.com [209.185.131.142]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA26969 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 06:17:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 6280 invoked by uid 0); 2 Dec 1999 11:20:18 -0000 Message-ID: <19991202112018.6279.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 210.55.227.8 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:20:18 PST X-Originating-IP: [210.55.227.8] From: "Neta Wharehoka" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Because Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:20:18 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2536 Fer godsake, leave me the hell alone. ----Original Message Follows---- From: Barry D Lia Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Because Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 01:13:27 -0800 Yes, they have. And there was a wonderful animated version of this story on PBS a few years ago: The Man who Planted Trees. It was on a children's series called Wonderworks, I believe. Beautiful animation where one scene metamorphoses into another (eg. dog's fur becoming waving field of grain). _______________________________________________________________________ Barry Lia \ barrylia@juno.com \ Seattle WA On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:58:09 -0400 Allan Balliett writes: >I believe that Chelsea Green has published a booklength version of this >story. It is well illustrated with woodcuts, of course. -Allan > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 06:37:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA07504 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 06:37:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA28735; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 06:31:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f122.hotmail.com [209.185.131.185]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA26654 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 06:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 10980 invoked by uid 0); 2 Dec 1999 11:18:10 -0000 Message-ID: <19991202111810.10979.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 210.55.227.8 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:18:10 PST X-Originating-IP: [210.55.227.8] From: "Neta Wharehoka" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Pot preps Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:18:10 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2537 NO MORE MAIL DAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!!! Geezuz! ----Original Message Follows---- From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Pot preps Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 20:54:42 +1300 > From previous > work, we have found that the lower potencies do not work on land that has > not received the benefit of the BD preparations, particularly the 502-507. We have reports from our spray contractor that lower potency peppers sprayed on a chemical orchard through a chemical sprayer provided a similiar effect to what he experiences on preps which have preps. IS this the good quality pepper or?????????? Glen A. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 09:28:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09490 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:28:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10709; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:24:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10126 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:18:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.50.58.72] (C19.reach.net [204.50.58.178]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA05584 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:21:34 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:21:34 -0500 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Re: Because Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2538 >Yes, they have. And there was a wonderful animated version of this story >on PBS a few years ago: The Man who Planted Trees. It was on a >children's series called Wonderworks, I believe. Beautiful animation >where one scene metamorphoses into another (eg. dog's fur becoming waving >field of grain). >_______________________________________________________________________ >Barry Lia \ barrylia@juno.com \ Seattle WA Ahem, er, as a Canadian a bit fuzzy on the details, I think the animated short was produced in Quebec by our National Film Board. May even have been nominated for an Oscar when it came out. Cheers, Geoff Heinricks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 14:10:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16718 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:10:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12819; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:07:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12232 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:02:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-164-223-11.s11.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.223.11] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11tbXP-0000Rk-00; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:05:10 -0500 Message-ID: <3846C31B.98E148FF@erols.com> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 14:06:03 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? References: <11E6388E4326@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2539 A couple of comments on Hugh's note: 1. While comfrey may spread - and spread it does - I wouldn't call it a hideous weed. In fact, I cultivate it for two reasons: it makes a great, herbal tea for a variety of sicknesses (especially colds and flu) and skin problems; and, because it roots so deeply (up to 8'), it brings many micronutrients to the surface, so it's an ideal compost plant. 2. I recall reading - in Grasp the Nettle, perhaps? Thanks to Hugh Courtney for the copy!! - that certain "weeds" grow on soils that are deficient in certain nutrients, often to balance those nutrients. I have a load of chickweed growing all over my property. And while it's great to eat - chickweed offers the highest concentration of Vitamin C found in any "green" - I'm not sure I'd like it to be so invasive. So, the question is - should I leave it, because it's providing some value, or should I pull it (where I can)?? Thanks to all in advance! Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 14:47:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17373 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:47:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA17213; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:43:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAB16955 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.015D3B3D@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:44:06 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 2 Dec 99 14:44:50 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 2 Dec 99 14:44:37 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:44:30 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3846C31B.98E148FF@erols.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <120130204561@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2540 > From: Robert Farr > I have a load of chickweed growing all over my property. And while it's > great to eat - chickweed offers the highest concentration of Vitamin C > found in any "green" - Please to tell, how on earth does one eat chick weed (and therefore gain the benefit of its Vitamin C?) Thank you, Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 14:56:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17598 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:56:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18298; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:52:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (dfprxy01.prodigy.net.mx [148.235.168.40] (may be forged)) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18154 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:51:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.225] (du-148-233-78-225.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FM400E8SPNU90@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:47:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 13:49:00 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Chicweed In-reply-to: <3846C31B.98E148FF@erols.com> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <11E6388E4326@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA18158 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2541 Hi Robert: If your problem is with common Chickweed (Stellaria media) Pfeiffer mentions it as "the number one weed". It will appear wherever soil is cultivated....the only effective means to prevent its spreading is repeated pulling by hand......The seeds can remain dormant in the soil for several years...... Chickweed has to be removed early, otherwise it will cover the soil like a felt blanket, hindering access of air and increasing the acidity of the soil. However, if removed before it goes to seed it will itself produce a very good compost. (exerpts from "weeds and what they tell" p 67-8 Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 15:01:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA17782 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:01:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18793; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:57:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18727 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:56:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-164-223-11.s11.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.223.11] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11tcO9-0000bg-00; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:59:38 -0500 Message-ID: <3846CFF4.2608D6A@erols.com> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 15:00:52 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? References: <120130204561@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2542 I just yank it - strings and all - and either cut it up for salads or stir fry it. Tastes like spinach - yum! R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 15:06:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA17892 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:06:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA19387; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:02:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18918 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:58:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-164-223-11.s11.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.223.11] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11tcPO-0000kb-00; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:00:54 -0500 Message-ID: <3846D041.3AA4979F@erols.com> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 15:02:09 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Chicweed References: <11E6388E4326@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2543 Thanks! Guillermo for that quick reply! I will immediately - today - go out and cultivate my growing beds - turn it over and under - to free the soil! Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 15:33:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA18957 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:33:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22105; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:29:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21732 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:25:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.136] (pm3shep3-163-121.intrepid.net [209.190.163.121]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA06966 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:29:02 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:30:14 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: FWD: Seattle Protest media bias Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id PAA21733 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2544 Yesterdayís Boston Globe editorial dismissed the WTO protestors as Luddites!   What is titled ìSenseless in Seattleî should be subtitled: By the Historically Senseless in Boston.  Of all places, Boston was built on global trade three hundred years ago.  This is no post-Internet, cyber-revolution to demonstrate against.  Hello. What happened in Seattle is much like the Boston Tea party where locals dressed up as heathens to act in ways they considered un-Christian to wantonly destroy property and dump tea into the harbor. They did this when world powers (at this time one out of five people on earth lived under British rule) had brought down the price of tea to an all time low. Even with the penny tax tea was cheaper than ever before. Yes, Bostonians did not like the tax, but most of all they did not like world trade price setting without representation!  Especially John Hancock, who saw his tea merchandising profit margin slashed by foreign attempts to make tea more accessible, free trade, for Bostonians. We need world trade agreements, and there's no going back on globization.  After all the family that founded and operated the Boston Globe got their initial wealth from Bostonís global shipping trade (hardly free-trade) two hundred years ago. What people are marching about in Seattle is democratic representation, voices in the process. This is similar Dan Shea and his farmer friends marching on Beacon Hill for fare compensation for services during the Revolution.  They set into motion, as a reaction, the whole Federalist papers and federalist constitution, much to Jefferson's chagrin, who sided with Shea. It is not right if in order for the US to ìvoluntarily stayî in the WTO, they must insist that forests in Massachusetts be clear cut instead of selectively cut in order to keep the "free trade prices down." And because of WTO, I am unable to buy mahogany knowing it has come from a sustainable harvest practice and not from slash and burn. Because of WTO sustainable agriculture products can not be labeled so! WTO takes that choice away from us.   Perhaps instead of free trade, we should all be advocating for smart global trade. But first involve the local, indigenous people in the decisions!  Why is this great nation not standing for citizen representation and democracy this time?   Does money speak louder than national principles? Okay, I'm a little cooked on this today. Thanks for listening. Rob Moir From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 15:52:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19468 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:52:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24529; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.42]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24430 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.225] (du-148-233-78-225.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FM400AIAOZU8M@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:33:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 13:34:36 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? In-reply-to: <3846C31B.98E148FF@erols.com> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <11E6388E4326@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2545 >A couple of comments on Hugh's note: > >1. While comfrey may spread - and spread it does - I wouldn't call it a >hideous weed. In fact, I cultivate it for two reasons: it makes a >great, herbal tea for a variety of sicknesses (especially colds and flu) >and skin problems; and, because it roots so deeply (up to 8'), it brings >many micronutrients to the surface, so it's an ideal compost plant. > >2. I recall reading - in Grasp the Nettle, perhaps? Thanks to Hugh >Courtney for the copy!! - that certain "weeds" grow on soils that are >deficient in certain nutrients, often to balance those nutrients. > >I have a load of chickweed growing all over my property. And while it's >great to eat - chickweed offers the highest concentration of Vitamin C >found in any "green" - I'm not sure I'd like it to be so invasive. > >So, the question is - should I leave it, because it's providing some >value, or should I pull it (where I can)?? > >Thanks to all in advance! > >Robert. Hi Robert (alias The Chile Man): There is a great little BD book on weeds you might want to add to your collection; "weeds and what they tell" by E.E. Pfeiffer, avail from BDA and I guess JPI. This is what it says about chickweed: (Cerastium arvense) Field-Mouse-ear Chickweed... Throught its creeping rootstock (every joint can produce a new plant) it can became troublesome in pastures. Plowing and cultivation may be the only solution. (Cerastium vulgatum) Common mouse-ear Chickweed.... Which propagates only by seed....Early cultivation in grain fields will lift up the shallow roots and so eradicate it. The book also puts chickweed as a weed of "cultivation"; those weeds that appear as a result of human actions. They would generally indicate a soil where the surface is loose but where insufficient organic matter is present. Hope this helps you. Warm greetings to your lovely family. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 16:57:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21313 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:57:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03985; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:53:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f70.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.70]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03594 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:50:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 11698 invoked by uid 0); 2 Dec 1999 21:53:07 -0000 Message-ID: <19991202215307.11697.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.138.182.183 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 02 Dec 1999 13:53:07 PST X-Originating-IP: [205.138.182.183] From: "Charles Premoe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: bd vs organic foods Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 13:53:07 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2546 Thanks Allen: I was only asking that the abbreviated letters be translated into word for word meanings such as you did with CSA; C=community S=supported A=agriculture. Once your spelled it out I completely understood without any futher explination. I sincerely hope that did not cause to much of an inconvenience for you. Again, thank you for your time. Charles Premoe capremoe@hotmail.com >From: Allan Balliett >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Re: bd vs organic foods >Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:31:02 -0400 > >Charles - You're just going to have to accept that when you're on the >internet, you're in the land of appropriate abbreviation! I guess this is >more FAQ fodder, for sure. In the meantime, I swear that 'nbsp' is some >sort of ascii debris from a poor conversion from one platform or another; >if I'm thinking correctly, then 'nbsp' means something like 'carriage >return.' (Ah, man's never ending search for meaning!) > >CSA: well, the meaning of the meaning has changed drastically in the past >year or so, but, for brevity: at its simplest, Community Supported >Agriculture is a farming model in which a group of comsumers pledges >financial and other support to a farm and a farmer in return for fresh, >locally grown produce through the growing season. Implicit in this >'contract' is a mutual sharing of the risks of agriculture. > >For the more BD-related terms, check out Hugh Lovel's magnificent glossary >at the Union Agricultural Institute pages at >http://www.igg.com/bdnow/uai/glossary.html > >and read his masterful "The Nature of Forces" while you're at it!! >http://www.igg.com/bdnow/uai/forces.html > >I hope I have been of some help! > >-Allan Balliett >moderator >BD Now! >csa@claymont.org > > >Good question. While were at it. I know that it's a bit of a hasal, but >for > >the sake of all the rest of the newcommers on the list, it would be most > >helpful if those of you who are sages of BD would speak in complete >English > >instead of abreviated form, i.e., "nbsp," "CSA," and the like. If we are > >ever to learn, this would be most helpful,and appreciated. > >Thank you > >Charles Premoe > >capremoe@hotmail.com > > > > > >>From: Guillermo Romero > >>Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org > >>To: bdnow@envirolink.org > >>Subject: Re: bd vs organic foods > >>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 11:25:11 -0600 > >> > >> >œ > >> > >>Hey Tony: How you do that ? > >> > >>Can someone kindly tell me what "n b s p" mean, I have seen it quite a > >>bit, but do not have a clue. > >> > >>regards > >> > >>Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > >>Comala, Colima, MEXICO > >> > >> > > > >______________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 17:06:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21530 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:06:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05064; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:02:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from wavecom.net (root@wave.sheridan.wy.us [206.54.116.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04858 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:01:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from dbrown (vcn8.usrnet-2.sher.wy.vcn.com [209.193.70.130]) by wavecom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA30135 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:01:24 -0700 Message-ID: <007301bf3d1a$195f8e40$8546c1d1@dbrown.wavecom.net> From: "Audrey Malan" To: "biodynamic list serve" Subject: OFF: Fw: Marshall Law in Seattle -Shut down the WTO victory for thePeople Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:08:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0070_01BF3CD7.09804660" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2547 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01BF3CD7.09804660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am forwarding an email I received from a dear friend in Seattle, who was = part of the "peaceful" demonstration - For more info on the WTO and = Seattle protests see: www.indymedia.org - Audrey P.S. I had emailed about the 500 plus people who have been arrested in = Seattle. -------------------- Hi Audrey - > >Apparently, everyone arrested so far hasn't been told what they're = being >arrested for, are not read their rights, and have no access to a = lawyer. The police sprayed and >arrested anyone on the >streets, including bystanders and even one WTO NGO delegate! They're = being >kept in barracks >at Sand Point Way. Fortunately, there are National Lawyers Guild = members >standing by, and >the Center for Constitutional Rights is setting up an office here to = sort >out the sordid details. > >There are several things to keep in mind. The window breaking, = looting, >etc., was done by a tiny >minority of anonymous street thugs - they may have even been = provocateurs >sent in to discredit the demonstration. People who happened to be on = the >street or peacefully demonstrating were gassed, sprayed, concussed by = loud >grenades, and shot with two sizes of rubber bullets. The cops looked = and >acted like the State goons in the movie Brazil. When Clinton arrived = at the >Westin, he entered a vacant city under martial law. It's quite a = scenario. > >I can't believe this bodes well for the WTO or the corporate Police = State >that showed its true colors over the past two days in Seattle. There's = kind >of a stunned silence in the city right now. > >- Bruce >-----=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01BF3CD7.09804660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Am forwarding an email I received = from a dear=20 friend in Seattle, who was part of the "peaceful" = demonstration - For=20 more info on the WTO and Seattle protests see: www.indymedia.org - = Audrey
 
P.S. I had emailed about the 500 plus people who = have been=20 arrested in Seattle.
--------------------
 
 
 
Hi Audrey -
>
>Apparently, everyone arrested so far = hasn't been=20 told what they're being
>arrested for, are not read their rights, = and have=20 no access to a lawyer.  The police sprayed and
>arrested = anyone on=20 the
>streets, including bystanders and even one WTO NGO = delegate! =20 They're being
>kept in barracks
>at Sand Point Way. =20 Fortunately, there are National Lawyers Guild members
>standing = by,=20 and
>the Center for Constitutional Rights is setting up an office = here to=20 sort
>out the sordid details.
>
>There are several = things to=20 keep in mind.  The window breaking, looting,
>etc., was done = by a=20 tiny
>minority of anonymous street thugs - they may have even been = provocateurs
>sent in to discredit the demonstration.  People = who=20 happened to be on the
>street or peacefully demonstrating were = gassed,=20 sprayed, concussed by loud
>grenades, and shot with two sizes of = rubber=20 bullets.  The cops looked and
>acted like the State goons in = the=20 movie Brazil.  When Clinton arrived at the
>Westin, he = entered a=20 vacant city under martial law.  It's quite a = scenario.
>
>I=20 can't believe this bodes well for the WTO or the corporate Police=20 State
>that showed its true colors over the past two days in=20 Seattle.  There's kind
>of a stunned silence in the city = right=20 now.
>
>- Bruce
>-----
------=_NextPart_000_0070_01BF3CD7.09804660-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 17:26:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22072 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:26:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07349; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:21:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from cobalt11-fe.global.net.uk (cobalt11-fe.global.net.uk [195.147.250.171]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA07144 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:19:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from pd9s05a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.229.218] helo=compaq) by cobalt11-fe.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11tIMS-00056S-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:36:33 +0000 Message-ID: <3846EF89.715B@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 22:15:37 +0000 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? References: <120130204561@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2548 Anita Graf (Staff) wrote: > > > From: Robert Farr > > > I have a load of chickweed growing all over my property. And while it's > > great to eat - chickweed offers the highest concentration of Vitamin C > > found in any "green" - > > Please to tell, how on earth does one eat chick weed (and > therefore gain the benefit of its Vitamin C?) > > Thank you, > Anita Chickweed is a tiny plant With a little star like bloom You bend down and you pluck it And take it to your room Wash it,Take some crusty bread And lay it nice and thick A little squeeze of lemon Yes, that should do the trick They say, it does stop bleeding Internal,and the nose If bleeding,it can stop it So I'm very glad it grows! Chickens seems to love it Budgies squawk all day Witches wear a necklace of it I've heard people say Regards Rex Tyler Rex Tyler -- ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 17:59:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22942 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:59:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA11620; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:54:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from cobalt11-fe.global.net.uk (cobalt11-fe.global.net.uk [195.147.250.171]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11308 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:53:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from p4ds07a02.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.151.78] helo=compaq) by cobalt11-fe.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11tIss-0006Zh-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:10:03 +0000 Message-ID: <3846F778.7DB4@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 22:49:28 +0000 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? References: <120130204561@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2549 Anita Graf (Staff) wrote: > > > From: Robert Farr > > > I have a load of chickweed growing all over my property. And while it's > > great to eat - chickweed offers the highest concentration of Vitamin C > > found in any "green" - > > Please to tell, how on earth does one eat chick weed (and > therefore gain the benefit of its Vitamin C?) > > Thank you, > Anita a bit more about chickweed from Rex Tyler substitute for cress Taste like pea pods flowers all the year around so source for wild birds, nice in an ommelette Gender Feminine/Planet rules-MOON Element Water/Powers fidelity and love High in Potassium salts and Vit C ointment for extrnal rashes and sores Can be host plant for cucumber mosaic virus Acts as dynamic accumulator as it increases potash which can be difficult to liberate from mineral Contains Manganese Will reduce Blackcut worm if intercroppd with corn Shows that soil is cultivated and tilled and of high fertility over and out -- ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 20:03:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA25005 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:03:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24065; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 19:58:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA23924 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 19:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.53] (r-66.29.alltel.net [166.102.66.29]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id TAA21811 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 19:00:16 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3846C31B.98E148FF@erols.com> References: <11E6388E4326@agecon.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 19:59:02 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2550 >A couple of comments on Hugh's note: > >1. While comfrey may spread - and spread it does - I wouldn't call it a >hideous weed. In fact, I cultivate it for two reasons: it makes a >great, herbal tea for a variety of sicknesses (especially colds and flu) >and skin problems; and, because it roots so deeply (up to 8'), it brings >many micronutrients to the surface, so it's an ideal compost plant. > >2. I recall reading - in Grasp the Nettle, perhaps? Thanks to Hugh >Courtney for the copy!! - that certain "weeds" grow on soils that are >deficient in certain nutrients, often to balance those nutrients. > >I have a load of chickweed growing all over my property. And while it's >great to eat - chickweed offers the highest concentration of Vitamin C >found in any "green" - I'm not sure I'd like it to be so invasive. > >So, the question is - should I leave it, because it's providing some >value, or should I pull it (where I can)?? > >Thanks to all in advance! > >Robert. Robert, I think you'll find chickweed is a winter and spring weed, not a summer one. And I can't think of what crop it might threaten as it conserves the phosporous and potash in fall tilled soils. My garlic and spinach like it just fine, and I do eat it once in a while. Supposedly it is good medicine for Herpes simplex. If you are looking for an invasive perennial try sheep's sorrel. It turns out to be easily dispensed with by raising the calcium content of the soil and neutralizing the pH. But pulling it out doesn't get rid of it. Maybe it spreads it. I understand it is a high priced and hard to find dried herb, but it is murder for strawberries. The remedy is to move the strawberries. Anyway over the years I've come to think of chickweed as my friend. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, GA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 20:03:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA25014 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24105; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 19:59:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA23926 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 19:57:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.53] (r-66.29.alltel.net [166.102.66.29]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id TAA21917 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 19:00:18 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3843B63E.EBFA63F6@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:03:23 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Potentizing and Preparations Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2551 >Dear Cheryl Kemp and List > >In reply to your questions, Cheryl, we can refer to Steiner's Medical >lectures to get a clearer picture of what happens when we continue >potentizing substances to ever higher and higher potencies. >Steiner says: >...."we can homeopathise, we can dilute the aggregate states of the >substances in question. This is what happens if one dilutes in the way >of Homeopathic doses. Here something occours which does not receive due >attention in the natural science of today, for mankind has a strong >tendency to abstractions. They say, for example, that from a source of >light - for example, the sun - the light radiates in all directions, and >finally disappears into infinity. But this is not true. No such form of >activity vanishes into infinite space, but it extends within a certain >limited orb and then rebounds elastically, returning to its source, >although the quality of this return is often different from its >centrifugal quality. In nature there are only rhythmical processes, >there are none which continue into infinity. They revert rhythmically >upon themselves. That is not only the case in quantitative dispersion, >but also in qualitative. If you subdivide any substance, it has at >first certain distinctive qualities. These qualities do not decrease and >diminish ad infinitum; at a certain point they are reversed and become >their opposites. And this intrinsic rhythm is also the foundation of >the contrast between the upper and the lower >organisation..................(1) > >and > >"Increase potency and you reach a zero point; beyond that opposite >effects appear. But this is not all; the further path on the negative >side leads to another zero point for these opposite effects. Passing >the second zero, you will come to a higher form of efficiency tending in >the same direction as the first sequence, but of quite a different >nature. It would be valuable and appropriate to plot out the different >effect of potencies by means of curves. But it would be necessary to >construct these curves in a special manner; first to delineate a curve >and then, on arriving at the point where certain lower potencies cease >to work and are superseded by the working of higher potencies, to turn >sharply at right angles and continue the curve into space..." (2) > >Now generally speaking, from a medical point of view of their effects in >Man, if we potentise Plant materials - they work on the Astral Body >, if we potentise animal materials they work on the etheric body and >if we potentise mineral materials they work on the ego. > > >You raise several difficult questions, with no easy answers - we can >assume that on a biodynamic farm, that has had all the preparations >applied for some time, the etheric forces (living forces) are much >stronger in the plants grown there, and the plants themselves are more >"substantial" - i.e. compared to a control - dry weight is increased. >If we look at the Agriculture Lectures, Lecture 4 and Discussion, the >500 Prep when stirred and sprayed, releases an "immense ethereal and >astral force" so the "Astral Atmosphere" on the farm is higher than >that of the surrounding farms if they have not applied 500. > >Now you applied 6x potentised animal peppers. - Mineral ASH - Since >they work directly on the "Group Soul " of the animal concerned, having >the effect of driving them away from the area peppered, (the Animal >Ego being carried by the Astral World,) it does seem that they do work >better if applied to a BD farm with a higher "astrality". >Now your dowser, when using a Pendulum or whatever to get a "sign" is >actually initially formulating a thought form in her etheric body >(thinking being an etheric activity) which works directly into the >astral world - (3) and the astral world works back by means of a sign. >to clarify: >".....What is the foundation of all this? it is based on the fact that >there is a faint interruption between the Ego and Astral body on one >hand and the Physical and the etheric body on the other, so that the >human being does not only perceive what is approximately speaking, at >his side, but by eliminating his physical body he becomes a sensory >organ able to perceive inside of the earth, without having to dig holes >into it. But when this direction exercises its influence, a direction >which is normally that of feeling, then one cannot use the expressions >which correspond to the thinking capacity. These perceptions are not >expressed in words. They can only be expressed as already indicated, >through signs." > >and > >"With these things I only wished to indicate that through certain >pathological conditions it is possible for man to extend his perceptive >capacity. In a sound and healthy way this is done through imagination >and inspiration" (4) > > >The accuracy of answers given by a "sign" depend very much on the >clarity of the original thought and this is the "secret" of good dowsing >- a very clearly formulated thought. >The Astral world being of a different time stream, can tell you >practically anything (5) Steiner touches on this in the Agriculture >Lectures when talking about Nitrogen, (6) which is the physical carrier >of the Astral world. > >Now for the 60x potency, You didn't say if it worked or not, but I >assume it did, I don't personally think that it is drawing on energies >to the detriment of others, nor a karmic level. - just at a higher >level as outlined by Steiner above. > >Hope this helps a bit. > >1.' Spiritual Science and Medicine', Rudolf Steiner, Lecture 2, 1975 >ed. Rudolf Steiner Publishing Co. - 20 lectures March-April 1920.. p. >35,36. > >2. As above - lecture 11 - p. 146. > >3. "Foundations of Esotericism" Lecture XIX 17th October 1905 Rudolf >Steiner. > >4. "The Widening of Man's Perception" - 7th Jan 1923 Rudolf Steiner. > Anthroposophic News Sheet 1/2 and 3/4 ---11th, 25th January 1948. > >5. "At the Gates of Spiritual Science" - Lecture 2, Rudolf Steiner - >23rd August 1906. p. 20. >second edition 1986 - Rudolf steiner Press. > >6." Agriculture" Lecture 3 - p. 49, 51, (second edition) > >JT From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 21:52:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27679 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:52:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA03458; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:48:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03295 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:47:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.136] (pm3shep2-163-84.intrepid.net [209.190.163.84]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA26016 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:50:22 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:48:58 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Fw: In Seattle: Reports #1, #2, #3, #3.5 & #4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2552 To Brian Hill Please forward to Doug Hunt I have watched this momentous occasion from afar. I sit here in England - now a fearful nation cowed by a pervasive and intimidating force. A police state, very similar to Germany in 1930's but I revel in the daily growth and strength of what I am sure is a true 'revolution' we are witnessing now in Seattle. This is going to be seen as something bigger than the Boston Tea Party - The French Revolution - October 1917. What we are seeing is nothing less than the cracks showing in the myth os democracy that we have been sold for over fifty years. I'm not sure where we go next - there is obviously a next stage to this for any right thinking person - but I'm convinced that the old order is crumbling and we are eating the crumbs so far. my heartfelt support goes to all those who had the courage to go to the frontline - I'm afraid here in the police state that is Britain we are beaten into submission - but our thoughts are with you, and we look to you to carry the torch until we recover from our repression. Remember, in the US you led by example for independence and you must do so again. All the very best to you in Seattle Andy Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="staermose.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Andy Staermose Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="staermose.vcf" From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 21:52:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27697 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:52:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA03568; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:48:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (dfprxy01.prodigy.net.mx [148.235.168.40] (may be forged)) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03307 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:47:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.150] (du-148-233-78-150.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FM500KJ995US9@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:49:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 17:44:17 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? In-reply-to: <3846EF89.715B@globalnet.co.uk> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <120130204561@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2553 >Chickweed is a tiny plant >With a little star like bloom >You bend down and you pluck it >And take it to your room > >Wash it,Take some crusty bread >And lay it nice and thick >A little squeeze of lemon >Yes, that should do the trick > >They say, it does stop bleeding >Internal,and the nose >If bleeding,it can stop it >So I'm very glad it grows! > >Chickens seems to love it >Budgies squawk all day >Witches wear a necklace of it >I've heard people say > >Regards > >Rex Tyler > Dear Rex: I really love and truely appreciate your talent. Keep it up Cheers Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 2 21:56:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27739 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:56:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA03975; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:52:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ark.com (mars.ark.com [209.53.216.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03836 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:51:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.53.216.51] (io1p19.ark.com [209.53.216.51]) by ark.com (8.9.3/8.5local) with SMTP id SAA21493 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:54:32 -0800 Message-Id: <199912030254.SAA21493@ark.com> Subject: re: Chickweed Eating Date: Thu, 2 Dec 99 18:55:18 -0800 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Lang Price To: "BD forum" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2554 hallo Anita: You can eat Chickweed fresh! Just harvest it with a knife or scissors, about one - two inches tall when the tips are lush and big. Even the odd flower is ok, but it should not be tall and leggie and going to seed, i.e. too old. Toss it in any salad with any dressing, or staight up is very tasty as well. I've never tried it steamed, stir fried or in soup, but I am sure you can figure out something yourself. Good luck! From: Marjan de Jong, On Line Farms, Courtenay, B.C. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 3 00:45:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00067 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 00:45:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA18581; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 00:41:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA18366 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 00:38:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.135.89] (pm3bky1-135-89.intrepid.net [209.190.135.89]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA23052 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 00:41:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199912030541.AAA23052@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: Re: OFF: FWD: Seattle Protest media bias Date: Fri, 3 Dec 99 00:51:55 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2555 Hi folks I was appalled to find that the CBS Evening News last night had not a single mention of the activities in Seattle although they did find time to indulge in panda watching. Jeanne Mozier From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 3 01:04:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA00421 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 01:04:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA21332; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 01:00:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA20748 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 00:56:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ap.net (D-02.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.35]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21758 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:59:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38475BF6.FD65F1C1@ap.net> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 21:58:14 -0800 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Potentizing and Preparations References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2556 Dear Hugh: It appears that Herr Steiner perceived the operation of the "law of similars"in his own particular way parting significantly from both the writings of Hanemann and Paracelsus, especially in regards to "potency". However, if we focus on the basic tenets of observation, all schools of homeopathy are related, they require very detailed observation when deciding on a remedy and potency [aka "taking the case"]. Given the limited number of preps, even considering the various sources, it should be relatively simple for a competent practitioner of radiesthesia to select preparations and potencies for a particular piece of land. However, as in the case of the Cosmic Pipe, a strategy to limit the intentional area to be treated must be employed. In addition, we must be careful not to presume that a particular potency is appropriate for an entire farm nor that this years potency will be best in the future. Finally, experience on your land, has nothing to do with any other piece of earth except to point to a potential place to start. Agricultural repetorizing might very well wind up to be an ineffective process except when limited to a particular area. Attention/Observation/Experimentation are the bywords in homeopathy whether for humans or farms and there is no way around this if a farmer wants to depend on the effects of homeopathic treatment. Thanks for your comments, Best Regards, davidi. Hugh Lovel wrote: > >Dear Cheryl Kemp and List > > > >In reply to your questions, Cheryl, we can refer to Steiner's Medical > >lectures to get a clearer picture of what happens when we continue > >potentizing substances to ever higher and higher potencies. > >Steiner says: > >...."we can homeopathise, we can dilute the aggregate states of the > >substances in question. This is what happens if one dilutes in the way > >of Homeopathic doses. Here something occours which does not receive due > >attention in the natural science of today, for mankind has a strong > >tendency to abstractions. They say, for example, that from a source of > >light - for example, the sun - the light radiates in all directions, and > >finally disappears into infinity. But this is not true. No such form of > >activity vanishes into infinite space, but it extends within a certain > >limited orb and then rebounds elastically, returning to its source, > >although the quality of this return is often different from its > >centrifugal quality. In nature there are only rhythmical processes, > >there are none which continue into infinity. They revert rhythmically > >upon themselves. That is not only the case in quantitative dispersion, > >but also in qualitative. If you subdivide any substance, it has at > >first certain distinctive qualities. These qualities do not decrease and > >diminish ad infinitum; at a certain point they are reversed and become > >their opposites. And this intrinsic rhythm is also the foundation of > >the contrast between the upper and the lower > >organisation..................(1) > > > >and > > > >"Increase potency and you reach a zero point; beyond that opposite > >effects appear. But this is not all; the further path on the negative > >side leads to another zero point for these opposite effects. Passing > >the second zero, you will come to a higher form of efficiency tending in > >the same direction as the first sequence, but of quite a different > >nature. It would be valuable and appropriate to plot out the different > >effect of potencies by means of curves. But it would be necessary to > >construct these curves in a special manner; first to delineate a curve > >and then, on arriving at the point where certain lower potencies cease > >to work and are superseded by the working of higher potencies, to turn > >sharply at right angles and continue the curve into space..." (2) > > > >Now generally speaking, from a medical point of view of their effects in > >Man, if we potentise Plant materials - they work on the Astral Body > >, if we potentise animal materials they work on the etheric body and > >if we potentise mineral materials they work on the ego. > > > > > >You raise several difficult questions, with no easy answers - we can > >assume that on a biodynamic farm, that has had all the preparations > >applied for some time, the etheric forces (living forces) are much > >stronger in the plants grown there, and the plants themselves are more > >"substantial" - i.e. compared to a control - dry weight is increased. > >If we look at the Agriculture Lectures, Lecture 4 and Discussion, the > >500 Prep when stirred and sprayed, releases an "immense ethereal and > >astral force" so the "Astral Atmosphere" on the farm is higher than > >that of the surrounding farms if they have not applied 500. > > > >Now you applied 6x potentised animal peppers. - Mineral ASH - Since > >they work directly on the "Group Soul " of the animal concerned, having > >the effect of driving them away from the area peppered, (the Animal > >Ego being carried by the Astral World,) it does seem that they do work > >better if applied to a BD farm with a higher "astrality". > >Now your dowser, when using a Pendulum or whatever to get a "sign" is > >actually initially formulating a thought form in her etheric body > >(thinking being an etheric activity) which works directly into the > >astral world - (3) and the astral world works back by means of a sign. > >to clarify: > >".....What is the foundation of all this? it is based on the fact that > >there is a faint interruption between the Ego and Astral body on one > >hand and the Physical and the etheric body on the other, so that the > >human being does not only perceive what is approximately speaking, at > >his side, but by eliminating his physical body he becomes a sensory > >organ able to perceive inside of the earth, without having to dig holes > >into it. But when this direction exercises its influence, a direction > >which is normally that of feeling, then one cannot use the expressions > >which correspond to the thinking capacity. These perceptions are not > >expressed in words. They can only be expressed as already indicated, > >through signs." > > > >and > > > >"With these things I only wished to indicate that through certain > >pathological conditions it is possible for man to extend his perceptive > >capacity. In a sound and healthy way this is done through imagination > >and inspiration" (4) > > > > > >The accuracy of answers given by a "sign" depend very much on the > >clarity of the original thought and this is the "secret" of good dowsing > >- a very clearly formulated thought. > >The Astral world being of a different time stream, can tell you > >practically anything (5) Steiner touches on this in the Agriculture > >Lectures when talking about Nitrogen, (6) which is the physical carrier > >of the Astral world. > > > >Now for the 60x potency, You didn't say if it worked or not, but I > >assume it did, I don't personally think that it is drawing on energies > >to the detriment of others, nor a karmic level. - just at a higher > >level as outlined by Steiner above. > > > >Hope this helps a bit. > > > >1.' Spiritual Science and Medicine', Rudolf Steiner, Lecture 2, 1975 > >ed. Rudolf Steiner Publishing Co. - 20 lectures March-April 1920.. p. > >35,36. > > > >2. As above - lecture 11 - p. 146. > > > >3. "Foundations of Esotericism" Lecture XIX 17th October 1905 Rudolf > >Steiner. > > > >4. "The Widening of Man's Perception" - 7th Jan 1923 Rudolf Steiner. > > Anthroposophic News Sheet 1/2 and 3/4 ---11th, 25th January 1948. > > > >5. "At the Gates of Spiritual Science" - Lecture 2, Rudolf Steiner - > >23rd August 1906. p. 20. > >second edition 1986 - Rudolf steiner Press. > > > >6." Agriculture" Lecture 3 - p. 49, 51, (second edition) > > > >JT From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 3 06:39:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA03883 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 06:39:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA07212; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 06:35:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA06542 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 06:31:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.38] (pm3shep1-163-38.intrepid.net [209.190.163.38]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA22790 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 06:34:46 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 06:34:02 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: FWD 30-NOV-1999: Independent Media Center Under Siege, Seattle Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2557 Title: Independent Media Center Under Siege! Author: David Murphy and David Potter Date: 9:08pm, 30-Nov-199 Source: Seattle Independent Media Center Reference: http://www.indymedia.org Seattle -- Police attack reporters as they try to enter the Independent Media Center. Pursuing protesters, a line of some 35 police in full riot gear stretched across the 3rd Ave. between Union and Pike some 10 feet North of the Independent Media Center (at 1415 3rd). Approximately 10 protesters sat across from them 30 feet to the South, with another 20 persons scattered around the block among the sitters. The seated protesters repeatedly asked the riot police what they wanted from the protesters, pointing out that when they had tried to leave, they were attacked. The riot police, wearing gas masks and full body armor, said nothing. After several minutes the line of protesters grew to about 15. Seconds later a concussion grenade landed and exploded among the seated protesters. Simultaneously, the riot cops charged, spraying pepper spray and tear gas at anyone they encountered including journalists filming outside the door of the IMC. The IMC filled with gas as people grabbed for masks and scarves. An ambulance was called for a bystandard who was rushed into the IMC after being hit by what was believed to be a concussion grenade in the face. Over 100 journalists were held hostage by the police for approximately one hour until they were allowed to leave. Cartridges from concussion grenades and two different types of rubber bullets were found in the street and brought back to the IMC. A curfew has been declared for the downtown Seattle area after 7 pm. This is the DAMN News Email list http://damn.tao.ca To unsubscribe, send an email to lists@tao.ca Asking to: unsubscribe damn ***DAMN DISCLAIMER - IMPORTANT PLEASE NOTE*** DAMN receives many unsolicited reports and tries but can not verify all information contained within. DAMN therefore disclaims responsibility for the information in this message and urges you to contact the reporter personally for further verification. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 3 07:06:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA04148 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:06:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA08388; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:02:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA08325 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:02:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.38] (pm3shep4-163-198.intrepid.net [209.190.163.198]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26130 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:05:29 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199912030541.AAA23052@loki.intrepid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 06:43:27 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: OFF: FWD: Seattle Protest media bias Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2558 >Hi folks > >I was appalled to find that the CBS Evening News last night had not a >single mention of the activities in Seattle although they did find time >to indulge in panda watching. > >Jeanne Mozier Gosh, Jeanne, you know, writing for "Graffitti," you really represent what's left (no pun!) of the underground press!! About corporate media, I think McLuhan said, in a different context, "They distract from distraction by distracting." If things get bad enough, I'm sure we'll have to hear about the president's penis again. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 3 07:56:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA04558 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:56:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA10713; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:52:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA10456 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:49:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-131.s131.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.131] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11tsC6-0004jd-00; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:52:15 -0500 Message-ID: <3847BD48.DD7CFD47@erols.com> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 07:53:29 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: "clean" cultivation? References: <120130204561@agecon.uga.edu> <3846F778.7DB4@globalnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2559 Thanks! to all for those great reponses on chickweed. Yes, I believe my soil is high in fertility - esp. being clay-based - but needs more organic matter (this being Guillermo's thought). This is my second year in here (Virginia). We'll see how the soil looks at the end of next growing season! I'll also continue to eat - and compost - chickweed. Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 3 10:26:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06907 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:26:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20942; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:19:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20539 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:14:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ap.net (D-29.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.30]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA14771 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:17:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3847DED1.A5519838@ap.net> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 07:16:33 -0800 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Fw: Neiman-Marcus Cookie recipe References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2560 Hi HUgh! There's a site that specializes in listing free stuff - TUDOGS.COM. You might ask them if they would like the recipe. Then a zillion folks might get to know about it. d. Hugh Lovel wrote: > >Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 3:10 PM > >Subject: Neiman-Marcus Cookie recipe > > > > > >>PLEASE READ THIS TRUE STORY AND PASS IT ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW!!!!! > >>My daughter and I had just finished a salad at a Neiman-Marcus Cafe in > >>Dallas and decided to have a small desert. Because both of us are > >>such cookie lovers, we decided to try the "Neiman-Marcus cookie." It > >>was so > >>excellent that I asked if they would give me the recipe and the > >>waitress said with a small frown, "I'm afraid not but, you can buy the > >>recipe. > >>Well, I asked how much, and she responded, "Only two-fifty, it's a > >>great deal!" > >>I agreed with approval, "just add it to my tab." > >>Thirty days later, I received my VISA statement from Neiman-Marcus and > >>it was $285.00. I looked again and I remembered I had only spent $9.95 > >>for > >>two salads and about $20.00 for a scarf. As I glanced at the bottom of > >>the > >>statement, it said "Cookie recipe - $250.00" > >>That was outrageous! > >>I called Neiman's accounting department and told them that the > >>waitress said it was "two-fifty", which clearly does not mean "two > >>hundred > >>and fifty dollars" by any "POSSIBLE" interpretation of the phrase. > >>Neiman-Marcus refused to budge. They would not refund my money, > >>because according to them, "What the waitress told you is not our > >>problem. > >>You have already seen the recipe. We absolutely will not refund your > >>money > >>at this point." > >>I explained to her the criminal statues which govern fraud in Texas. > >>I threatened to refer them to the Better Business Bureau and the State > >>Attorney General Office for engaging in fraud. I was basically told, > >>"Do what you want, it doesn't matter, we're not refunding your > >>money." > >>I waited, thinking of how I could get even, or even try to get any of > >>my money back. I said, "Okay, you folks got my $250, and now I'm going > >>to > >>have $250 worth of fun. I'm going to see that every cookie lover in the > >>United States with an e-mail account has a $250 cookie recipe from > >>Neiman-Marcus....for free." > >>She replied, I wish you wouldn't do this." and I said, > >>"Well, you should have thought of that before you ripped me off," and > >>slammed down the phone on her. > >>So, here it is!!! Please, please, please pass it on to everyone you > >>can possibly think of. I paid $250 for this and I don't want > >>Neiman-Marcus > >>to ever get another penny off this recipe... > >> > >>NEIMAN-MARCUS COOKIES (recipe may be halved) > >> > >>2 cups butter > >>4 cups flour > >>2 tsp. soda > >>2 cups sugar > >>5 cups blended oatmeal *** > >>24 oz. chocolate chips > >>2 cups brown sugar > >>1 tsp. salt > >>1 - 8 oz. Hershey Bar (grated) > >>4 eggs > >>2 tsp. baking powder > >>2 tsp. vanilla > >>3 cups chopped nuts (your choice) > >>Makes 112 cookies > >> > >>*** Measure oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder. > >>Cream the butter and both sugars. > >>Add eggs and vanilla, mix together with flour, oatmeal, salt, baking > >>powder, and soda. > >>Add chocolatechips, Hershey Bar and nuts. > >>Roll into balls and place 2 inches apart on a cookie sheet. > >>Bake for 10 minutes at 375 degrees. > >> > >>Have fun!!! > >>This is not a joke - this is a true story. Ride free citizens! > >>PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW!!!!! > >> > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 3 11:31:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08232 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:31:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27864; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:27:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27776 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:26:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.205.250]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:29:52 +0000 Message-ID: <003b01bf3dab$d0921600$facd2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: Re: Fw: In Seattle: Reports #1, #2, #3, #3.5 & #4 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:29:57 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2561 Allan: I really sympathise with the WTO protesters (all but the few thugs who seemingly spoilt the image) who have obviously suffered extreme overkill by the police (incidentally, it got good and reasonably balanced coverage on BBC news bulletins). At the suggestion that the National Guard might be called in, my first thought was, "Kent State all over again ?" However, I must protest strongly about the posting from 'Andy', who apparently lives in a brutal police-state England scarcely distinguishable from Nazi Germany ! Can there be another England apart from the one in Britain ? Maybe I'm just an old conservative (with a small 'c' !) and admittedly I live in Wales but, to me, Britain is one of the more enlightened and workable democracies, even though it still has far to go in many directions. Just what is biting 'Andy' - did he get arrested for firebombing some location in the City of London a couple of months ago and thinks this is unfair ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 3 11:35:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08331 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:35:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28389; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:31:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from dns.midcoast.com (root@dns.midcoast.com [206.26.226.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28297 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:31:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from jpt (liberty-c-011.midcoast.com [208.153.20.111]) by dns.midcoast.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA24386 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:34:41 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991203111222.007d62b0@midcoast.com> X-Sender: stgeorge@midcoast.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 11:12:22 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "John P. Thomas" Subject: BD Yarn In-Reply-To: <3847BD48.DD7CFD47@erols.com> References: <120130204561@agecon.uga.edu> <3846F778.7DB4@globalnet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2562 There was or maybe still is a company in Seattle, Washington, USA, which distributed yarn made from New Zealand biodynamic wool. Does anyone know if Creative Yarns International is still in business? Their phone number is no longer in service and they no longer advertise in knitting trade publications. Also I would be interested to know of other wholesale sources for biodynamic yarn, especially New Zealand yarns. My partner has a knitting business and would like to switch some of her production of infant sweaters, hats, and mittens to BD wool. You may not know that commercial wool and cotton yarns are quite toxic. They contain many chemicals and petroleum based lubricants which are added during the cleaning and spinning process. Some even contain insecticides to kill moth larva which might dare to snack on the yarn at some future point in time. Thanks John St. George Farm Freedom, Maine, USA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 3 12:12:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09167 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:12:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02139; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:08:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01963 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:07:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.38] (pm3shep2-163-97.intrepid.net [209.190.163.97]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20528 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:10:42 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991203111222.007d62b0@midcoast.com> References: <3847BD48.DD7CFD47@erols.com> <120130204561@agecon.uga.edu> <3846F778.7DB4@globalnet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:13:17 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: BD Yarn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2563 Dear John - I will have wool from 8 biodynamically-raised Jacobs sheep here this spring. (Polka-dotted, black and 'white') If you can back up a step in your processing, I'd love to have it all pre-subscribed. In the same vein as your original post, a few years back, here in WV a couple of craftwomen suffered severe reactions to toxins in the dried flowers they were working with. -Allan Balliett >There was or maybe still is a company in Seattle, Washington, USA, which >distributed yarn made from New Zealand biodynamic wool. Does anyone know >if Creative Yarns International is still in business? Their phone number >is no longer in service and they no longer advertise in knitting trade >publications. Also I would be interested to know of other wholesale >sources for biodynamic yarn, especially New Zealand yarns. My partner has >a knitting business and would like to switch some of her production of >infant sweaters, hats, and mittens to BD wool. > >You may not know that commercial wool and cotton yarns are quite toxic. >They contain many chemicals and petroleum based lubricants which are added >during the cleaning and spinning process. Some even contain insecticides >to kill moth larva which might dare to snack on the yarn at some future >point in time. > >Thanks John > >St. George Farm >Freedom, Maine, USA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 3 12:45:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10173 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:45:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05837; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:41:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f87.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.87]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05585 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:38:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 15780 invoked by uid 0); 3 Dec 1999 17:40:57 -0000 Message-ID: <19991203174057.15779.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.138.182.209 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 03 Dec 1999 09:40:57 PST X-Originating-IP: [205.138.182.209] From: "Charles Premoe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Back to BD and Currency Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 09:40:57 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2564 Hugh: I believe you said a mouthful; both figuratively and litterally! I used to own a bakery in Independence Missouri. I am, I guess you might say, an all or nothing at all type of a person. Somewhat like yourself I wanted to create and bake the best goods in the world, if you know what I mean. During the holidays it would be nothing to work four or five days in a row without any sleep whatsoever. No time to eat or sleep. Always in a hurry to get whereever it was that I was going. What little food I ate was what ever I happened to be fixing at any given moment. I'm driven by some inner passion to be the very best no matter what I do. People would keep telling me to slow down, but I just couldn't. Finally I had a stroke; and for a short time, my life seemed to come to an abrupt end. I think my anger helped me to survive. I was not about to give in after all the blood sweat and tears that I put into everything thus far. I just refused to lay down and die or let life pass me by. Although I am still not, (pardon the expression) back to running on all eight cylindars, I am still running full steam ahead on what I do have left. Everyone must choose the way in which they feel they must conduct their own lives. After all isn't that what life is all about, making choices? Hopefully the choices we make will cater to the meet the needs of all. I have great admiration for individuals such as yourself. I sincerely mean that without any thought of return. You remind me of the man in the story that has been circulating around the list lately about planting all those oak trees. There were wars going on all around him and without giving much notice to the circumstances which surrounded him he just kept on doing what he knew best; planting oak trees. Isn't that what we all were meant to do? Isn't about time that we all enter into our secret gardens that lay just beneath the crusty exterior of outerselves, and begin to apply the very same spiritual princples of BD to our own lives, which in turn would unlock some of the hidden mysteries of the outward? One of the hidden principles that I have learned is "that which you send out or put forth will return to you someday." After all, it appears that is exactly what you have done on the land that you are presently working. You put so much of yourself in to what you have done with as compared to what you had to start with; and know you are able to reap the well deserved fruits of your labors. Thanks for the post!!! One final question before I sign off. Dose anyone know if any presentations or lectures are being planned for the Kansas City area in the future. I would love to attend. Thanks again!!! Charles Premoe capremoe@hotmail.com >From: Hugh Lovel >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Back to BD and Currency >Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:28:59 -0500 > >Dear Glen, JT, et. al., > >I don't have many answers here and maybe don't even have enough of the >questions. I feel it is a bit regretable that there exists some obvious >animosity between two folks when I find much to appreciate about both. I >can only hope the discussion of this important topic doesn't suffer as a >result. > >It's a sticky question whether to share knowledge freely or to hold it back >in hopes of private gain or to charge steeply so that people see its value >or to treat it as beyond price so that it's freely given or not at all. > >I'm in my present position--perhaps enviable, perhaps not--of having my >meals and housing assured because I run a biodynamic farm. I put myself in >that position through 23, going on 24 years of hard work squeezing the >mental and physical energy like droplets of sweat out of a sports towel. I >milk the cow twice a day and make yogurt, butter and cheese. I'm a fine >chef and just got through pitching a Thanksgiving Day feast where I roasted >a turkey with all the trimmings mashed potatoes and gravy, two kinds of >dressing made from onion/spelt bread baked the night before with olive oil, >honey, yeast and unrefined sea salt (Guillermo's from Colima, Mexico). In >my dressing I had celery, ripe bell pepper, onion, and carrot with a broth >seasoned with freshly pureed garlic, fresh ginger juice, garden sweet basil >and garden sage, and in one version my own homemade pork sausage. There was >cranberry bundt mold with cranberries, honey and agar agar and two kinds of >pumpkin pie topped with fresh cream skimmed off the tippy tippy top of my >wide-mouthed milk jars. The salad was picked fresh a couple hours before by >myself and Anita Graf, her husband Francisco and Bert, a friend from >Bavaria--turnips, radishes, carrots, spinach, purple mustard, lettuce, >chinese cabbage, arugula and mizuna--and the salad dressing was freshly >made from fresh garlic, fresh ginger juice, fresh lemon juice, umeboshi >plum vinegar, unrefined sea salt, extra virgin Greek olive oil, celery >seed, garden basil and garden sage, fresh ripe red bell pepper pureed in >the blender with some fresh onion thrown in as an emulsifier. I churned and >molded butter the night before while I made the fresh baked spelt bread. >And lest I forget, there were steamed carrots, turnips, collards, mustards >and rape. No Rockefeller or Rothschild had anything better, and they >probably didn't have better friends to share it with either. A Korean >friend brought kimche, a Persian friend brought a traditional rice and >lentil dish and the Bavarian friend brought wine. Needless to say we had a >wonderful party. > >I started farming with forty dollars and I guess nothing so worthwhile has >ever been easy. I did NOT go out and make a lot of money so I could afford >this lifestyle. I couldn't have gotten this lifestyle for any amount of >money anyway. It is priceless, as is my knowledge of how to grow sweet, >delicately flavored turnips or rich, nutty spinach that people snap up at >our market for $6 per pound. I share as much as I can manage of that >knowledge for free but I have to get money from somewhere. So I charge >$2/lb. for turnips, $3/lb. for potatoes, $6/lb for green soybeans or >spinach and $5/bottle for my legendary Louisiana hot sauce just to keep my >head above water. I always charge the most for my vegetables of any grower >at our market, and if another grower goes up on something I top his price >as a matter of policy. Even so in terms of net income I live well below the >so-called poverty line. > >Over the years my investigations of biodynamics, homeopathy and radionics >have resulted in a field broadcaster design that can apply the biodynamic >preparations to large acreages day in and day out for next to no outlay in >either time or money. Back when I made a few of these for others and did >this rather like fumbling along I only charged $300 and then $400 and $500. >When I reached the point I refined the manufacture and the reagent work so >that reliable, high quality results were routine I found it necessary to >raise the price to $1,000 to cover advertising, tooling, packaging, >warranties, and on-going contacts with buyers so that results were assured. >I can't do the job properly for less, and was not doing the job properly >back when the price was lower. In the beginning I tried publishing designs >and instructions and it was like opening Pandora's Box. It was frightening >the wierd and dangerous permutations people came up with from my basic >instructions. The majority of folks only listened to those parts of what I >said that they chose--and ignored the rest. Mostly the need for a balanced >broadcast of ALL of the biodynamic preparations sailed right in one eyeball >and out the other, and folks were out there with faulty designs using >Grander water, azomite, you name it, even Black Flag as their reagents for >heaven's sake. No consciousness about limiting the broadcast to their own >property or using homeopathic potencies. Maybe ten percent, maybe fewer, >got BD prep potencies from Lorraine or got their equipment built to my >specifications. Two that I know of gave up and ordered kits from me and got >my on-going consultancy, which it turns out they have used well. > >As you might imagine, manufacturing and marketing these field broadcaster >kits, while it stands to make some money, also takes its toll of my time >and energies. Don't imagine, for instance, that I go in for weeding in my >garden. Weeds are a sizable proportion of my companion plants. Some may not >be beneficial, but most are. You know, it is diversity and cooperation that >really makes an ecology thrive. Forget uniformity and competition. There is >almost no bare soil out there right now, and this is going into the off >season. I still have to plant my wheat and barley for grain harvest. I've >left that to last for some reason, but I've got nearly $3,000 worth of the >finest echinacea tincture (in 80 proof organic quadruple distilled vodka) >I've ever made on the shelf ready for bottling, so I've put income ahead of >my grain breeding experiments. Priorities. Field broadcasters have not been >at the top of my priority list since last Spring, and come December they >are going back up there. > >There's no real secrets about my field broadcasters. Technique. I've got >good technique. Lorraine has good technique with her reagent work. We've >got good technique. I can't convey this very well in writing. Sorry. So in >a way it is a secret. My field broadcasters bear the stamp of good >technique. People are welcome to go through the sort of things I have to >develop their own good technique and make their own field broadcasters OR >for a mere >$1,000 they can benefit from mine and Lorraine's. It doesn't come any >cheaper than that. > >It seems to me you are in an analogous situation. I can read Kolisko and >Remer and make my own homeopathic potencies and combinations thereof. You >HAVE shared on this list many if not most of the important insights that >went into the development of the Garuda preps whether folks realize it or >not. While I am not under any illusion that I could copy you exactly I >could imitate what you've done and save a little money making my own >version of combined potentized preps. The fact is I'm one of these people >who wants to know how everything works and if I were in En Zed I might just >be copying you. But take it from me that I'm aware that in the process of >copying you I'd be expending so much time and energy that I know with >certainty I'd be ahead buying Garuda Preps from you if I were not such a >pig at the trough of knowledge. > >We can have this debate about whether to raise prices so there is a clearer >public perception of your Preps' worth. Or whether to raise prices so you >are more appropriately compensated for the decades of agonizing thought and >labor you've expended, or whether you might indeed be casting pearls before >swine to publish your methods, and so forth. I don't know the answer. You >are in your situation and hopefully you know a lot more about it than I do. >You are in plenty of good company keeping the exact details of your >procedures proprietary. Whether or not I think it is the best strategy is >moot as can be. I didn't make my road smooth by publishing what I could >about my field broadcasters. I opened Pandora's Box. There's all kinds of >ill-conceived and dangerous experiments going on out there taking off from >what I published. It is my perception that the angels are having a time of >it guarding mortals from the harms born of such freedom of information as I >practiced. > >It would be wrong to imagine I'm living in the comfort zone and that's why >I can share what I know. I was never in the comfort zone despite the finest >food in the world coming out of what was 25 years ago a disasterously >wrecked small farm. I've worked harder than most people can imagine. I live >hard. My grey hair shows it, though I haven't had time for arthritis, heart >attacks, diabetes, etc. But try to imagine this. When I go to New York, >West Virginia, Wisconsin, Kansas, Florida, etc. I get in the pickup truck >and drive till I get there, stopping only for gas, coffee and a rare nap if >I need it. Sometimes this is on no more than an hour or two of sleep before >driving, and frequently this involves lectures, workshops and so forth with >little rest when I get there. And I can hardly wait to get back home again >so I drive straight non-stop. I also rarely get more than a couple hours >sleep between picking and packing day and market day as I must get the >truck loaded and get right back up again at 4 a.m. to drive to Atlanta. >While this may be exciting, it is more like a bed of rose branches rather >than a bed of fresh petals. I've been in jails and prisons, been on lengthy >benders intoxicated beyond hope of consciousness, read novels day in and >day out lounging and eating indulgently--whatever--and THIS is the life I >choose. No question I do it because it is my choice. I'm pretty good at >doing most things, but there is far more for me to do than I can manage. I >prioritize ruthlessly and I like that fine. I'm not complaining. But I >don't consider my position particularly enviable. I mean, I have trouble >imagining any one else wanting to live such a life. Am I wrong? Am I viewed >with envy? I wade through hell on a daily basis, hybrid vigor though my >combination of native and norse genetics may have given me. > >So maybe you can see I don't have answers or even maybe enough questions. >Just don't think that my position on sharing information is easy to >understand simply because I'm running a farm with unbelievably good food >waiting to be picked just outside the door. I thought the same way about >sharing my knowledge back when I started farming with worn out clothes, no >tools, $40 and an unbelievably ravaged and dumped on small farm. I learned >to grow the food because that was my goal. I soon realized my extended goal >was reclaimation of the Sahara, if I could get that far. And over the years >I've come to see there are even much vaster goals out beyond that. But >first I had to learn how to grow the best food in the world. I may not be >there yet, but I'm really close and making good headway. I don't doubt the >best food in the world could be a lot better than it presently is. It IS >energizing and it DOES have benefits, but I'm so utterly off-the-wall crazy >as to make a LOT more work for myself by sharing what I know. To think of >doing it for money makes me howl with derisive laughter. I can't imagine >finding motivation in such lifeless tokens. My motivation is coming from >somewhere else entirely. For me money is, perhaps, a means to an end. And >there are more and diverse other means that would be absolutely necessary >even if money was easy to hand. But the end is not money at all. Given the >end, money is of no value. > >Does this add to the discussion? What are others' views? What are the >realities of others' lives? I'm curious. I know others do not think as I >do, and heaven forbid that they should. But there must be some common >ground. Any one else care to throw down? > >Best, >Hugh Lovel >Blairsville, Georgia > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 3 13:28:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11047 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:28:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11761; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:22:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f172.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.172]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11494 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:20:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 69721 invoked by uid 0); 3 Dec 1999 18:22:48 -0000 Message-ID: <19991203182248.69720.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.138.182.209 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 03 Dec 1999 10:22:48 PST X-Originating-IP: [205.138.182.209] From: "Charles Premoe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: A Big Thank You to All Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 10:22:48 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2565 Unthanked People When William Stidger taught at Boston University, he once reflected upon the great number of un-thanked people in his life. Those who had helped nurture him, inspire him or who cared enough about him to leave a lasting impression. One was a schoolteacher he'd not heard of in many years. But he remembered that she had gone out of her way to put a love of verse in him, and Will had loved poetry all his life. He wrote a letter of thanks to her. The reply he received, written in the feeble scrawl of the aged, began, "My dear Willie." He was delighted. Now over 50, bald and a professor, he didn't think there was a person left in the world who would call him "Willie." Here is that letter: My dear Willie, I cannot tell you how much your note meant to me. I am in my eighties, living alone in a small room, cooking my own meals, lonely and, like the last leaf of autumn, lingering behind. You will be interested to know that I taught school for 50 years and yours is the first note of appreciation I ever received. It came on a blue-cold morning and it cheered me as nothing has in many years. Not prone to cry easily, Will wept over that note. She was one of the great un-thanked people from Will's past. You know them. We all do. The teacher who made a difference. That coach we'll never forget. The music instructor or Sunday school worker who helped us to believe in ourselves. That scout leader who cared. We all remember people who shaped our lives in various ways. People whose influence changed us. Will Stidger found a way to show his appreciation -- he wrote them letters. Who are some of the un-thanked people from your past? It may not be too late to say, "Thanks." And Thanks to all who put forth time and effort to at BD to make the world a better world to live in. Charles Premoe capremoe@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 3 13:31:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11101 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:31:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12314; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:27:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11921 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:23:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.161.179]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991203183112.CTTF1752249.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 07:31:12 +1300 Message-ID: <38480B46.294F@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 07:26:14 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: BD and currency Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2566 Perhaps as a ways of concluding my thoughts on this thread........ Upon reflection of all the different points of view expressed in this thread it is clear we all have different circumstances and survival stages of reality. Any individuals actions appear to be in relation to the financial ethical balance they feel they have the luxury to maintain. So there is no simple answer and in fact only the individual can make the decision as to how they best sustain their life and balance their altuistic abilities. And so I go forth with a clearer sense my methods of funding my research are appropriate to my circumstance. Critics can such eggs and are welcome to their opinions. Until one walks the mile in anothers shoes and all that. Thank you to all who have shared their insights and experiences. cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 3 16:12:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14600 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:12:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29480; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:07:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from dns.midcoast.com (root@dns.midcoast.com [206.26.226.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29345 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:06:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from jpt (liberty-c-013.midcoast.com [208.153.20.113]) by dns.midcoast.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA07763 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:09:57 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991203154723.008e2380@midcoast.com> X-Sender: stgeorge@midcoast.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 15:47:23 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "John P. Thomas" Subject: Re: BD Yarn In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19991203111222.007d62b0@midcoast.com> <3847BD48.DD7CFD47@erols.com> <120130204561@agecon.uga.edu> <3846F778.7DB4@globalnet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2567 Dear Allan Kathleen is looking for specific breeds of wool for her yarn. She can arrange to have it spun through a green spinning process, but she wants Columbia, Coridale, Montidale, or Morino wool. She needs 100 pounds of clean fleece which has been recently cut and which is well skirted. Apparently, the Jacobs fleece is too course for baby clothing. Thanks for the offer. John St. George Farm Freedom, Maine, USA At 12:13 PM 12/3/99 -0400, you wrote: >Dear John - I will have wool from 8 biodynamically-raised Jacobs sheep here >this spring. (Polka-dotted, black and 'white') If you can back up a step in >your processing, I'd love to have it all pre-subscribed. > >In the same vein as your original post, a few years back, here in WV a >couple of craftwomen suffered severe reactions to toxins in the dried >flowers they were working with. -Allan Balliett > >>There was or maybe still is a company in Seattle, Washington, USA, which >>distributed yarn made from New Zealand biodynamic wool. Does anyone know >>if Creative Yarns International is still in business? Their phone number >>is no longer in service and they no longer advertise in knitting trade >>publications. Also I would be interested to know of other wholesale >>sources for biodynamic yarn, especially New Zealand yarns. My partner has >>a knitting business and would like to switch some of her production of >>infant sweaters, hats, and mittens to BD wool. >> >>You may not know that commercial wool and cotton yarns are quite toxic. >>They contain many chemicals and petroleum based lubricants which are added >>during the cleaning and spinning process. Some even contain insecticides >>to kill moth larva which might dare to snack on the yarn at some future >>point in time. >> >>Thanks John >> >>St. George Farm >>Freedom, Maine, USA > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 3 17:33:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16509 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:33:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06548; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:29:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06379 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:27:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.56] (pm3shep1-163-56.intrepid.net [209.190.163.56]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22362 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:30:25 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:26:12 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: RE: Seattle Protest media bias Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2568 Aloha, -----Original Message----- From: creuss@bluewin.ch [mailto:creuss@bluewin.ch] >I have read the media claim that the >protesters smashed the shop windows of "innocent local small business", >but I would assume that the activists are enough "class conscious" ;-) that >they smash only the windows of big corporations (McDeath, Starbucks,..) !? I saw no damage to "local small business," although there may have been some since I have been downtown. In the area where most of the vandals acted, there ARE no local small businesses - they can't afford to do business there. It's the big boys' downtown commercial zone. The window and graffiti damage I personally saw was to Starbucks, Fidelity Trust, Bank of America, McDonalds, Sharper Image and the like. Gap, Nike and other vandalism was on the local news. I don't agree with smashing anything, but I do want to dispel the above mentioned media myth...I wouldn't call vandals "activists" either. All this damage was done by a tiny number of people. I personally witnessed several scenes where nonviolent protesters were telling the violent ones to stand down, sometimes successfully and sometimes not. In the last few days there have been more large (1000 - 5000 or more) person peaceful rallies and marches by combinations of labor, environment, agriculture and other groups. Some have apparently been gassed and/or sprayed by police without any provocation other than marching. There have been some definite incidents of out-of-control police actions. A friend was witnessing on Capitol Hill Wed. PM and confirmed reports of overuse of tear gas wafting into residents' apartments, groups of residents simply trying to get home being harassed, including physically with gas and pepper spray, and so on. Last night's late news (Seattle Ch. 7) showed a lone resident on Capitol Hill, approaching a group of 6+ riot police, extremely upset and vocal but nonviolent about what was being done to himself, his neighborhood and his fellow residents. They let him get close (he was walking towards them, yelling hoarsely "what are you doing?!? What are you doing?!!?"), pulled back a bit so he was in a bit of a semicircle, and then four or five of them pepper-sprayed him in the face at close range with no warning whatsoever. Meanwhile, the media people continue to run interview clips with unapologetic vandals who call themselves anarchists, and no interview clips with nonviolent rally, march and action organizers and participants. Heaven forbid any intelligent discourse or wisdom should leak out to the general TV-medicated public. >The media also doesn't seem to understand some basic things -- e.g., >AP described the "V" sign of a protester at >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/p/ap/19991201/us/world_trade_protest_b q >e.html >as a "peace sign" when in fact it is the Victory sign (isn't it?). As far as I know, it can be either, and I saw it used as both. John Schinnerer From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 3 17:33:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16520 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:33:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06594; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:29:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06392 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:27:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.56] (pm3shep1-163-56.intrepid.net [209.190.163.56]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22396 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:30:35 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:28:12 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD: Food & Agriculture Day Update Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id RAA06393 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2569 Food & Agriculture Day took center stage yesterday in the citizens' summit during the WTO in Seattle. It will take time for detailed reports to be written but, after days of chaos in the streets, for the family farmers and their supporters the sun finally broke through and it felt like significant progress was made. Farmers from more than 30 countries participated in a day-long series of press briefings, panel discussions and workshops. One of the highlights was a Noon rally to support small farmers that attracted 5,000 people to the Pike Place Market. In addition to several hundred farmers from around the country and the world, the crowd included a broad spectrum of representatives from environmental, labor, and human rights organizations. None of the violence that shook the city the previous two days marred Food & Agriculture Day. The kickoff event was a Farmer Breakfast at the United Methodist Church in downtown Seattle. The breakfast, hosted by the Vashon Island Growers Association, featured an abundance of organically grown foods produced by local farmers. Following a series of press briefings, panel discussions and the Noon rally, there were workshops in and near the Market on the topics that included Globalization & Food Safety, Food Security in a Global Economy, Farm Worker Issues, and Genetic Engineering. Food & Agriculture Day included farmers from England, Belgium, Norway, Finland, Japan, Korea, India, The Philippines, Thailand, Bangladesh, Senegal, Ghana, Uruguay, Mexico, Brazil, and Peru. One of the most noted was José Bové, a French farmer who's become a leader in efforts to stop the globalization of genetically engineered foods and the destruction of local agricultural communities. Participants in Food & Agriculture Day included representatives of the National Family Farm Coalition, the French Farmer's Union, the Peasant Movement of the Philippines, the Japanese Independent Farmers Union, the Union of Concerned Scientists, Food First, and both Seattle and Washington Tilth. As I mentioned, it will take time for people engaged in the heart of the discussions to write detailed reports on the outcomes. If you have access to the web, the best place to start on getting authoritative information and for tracking future developments is the site for the nonprofit Institute for Agriculture & Trade Policy: http://www.wtowatch.org Several people commented that yesterday felt like a major turning point in the decades-long campaign to have the voices of small farmers and their supporters heard in global trade debates. I'm sorry that the surreal scenes of chaos on Seattle streets obscured the substantive work of grassroots groups from around the world. The numerous organizations represented in Seattle are returning home with renewed hope and strengthened connections that are likely to bear fruit in the weeks and months ahead. Best wishes, Mark Musick Pike Place Market 85 Pike Street, Room 500 Seattle, WA 98101 (206) 682-7453, Ext 233 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 4 00:42:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22468 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA04213; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:37:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA04150 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:36:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.53] (r-66.47.alltel.net [166.102.66.47]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id XAA23502 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:39:17 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: uai@alltel.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003b01bf3dab$d0921600$facd2cc3@m00q6c00> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:39:00 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Fw: In Seattle: Reports #1, #2, #3, #3.5 & #4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2570 >Allan: I really sympathise with the WTO protesters (all but the few thugs >who seemingly spoilt the image) who have obviously suffered extreme overkill >by the police (incidentally, it got good and reasonably balanced coverage on >BBC news bulletins). At the suggestion that the National Guard might be >called in, my first thought was, "Kent State all over again ?" > However, I must protest strongly about the posting from 'Andy', who >apparently lives in a brutal police-state England scarcely distinguishable >from Nazi Germany ! Can there be another England apart from the one in >Britain ? > Maybe I'm just an old conservative (with a small 'c' !) and >admittedly I live in Wales but, to me, Britain is one of the more >enlightened and workable democracies, even though it still has far to go in >many directions. > Just what is biting 'Andy' - did he get arrested for firebombing >some location in the City of London a couple of months ago and thinks this >is unfair ? Tony N-S. Dear Tony, et. al., I'd strongly advise that you read David Icke's . . .AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE as well as his THE BIGGEST SECRET (Bridge of Love Publications). These two books will explain a lot of things about this WTO business and the media coverage you heretofore didn't understand. I invite you to read these books with an open mind and see just how close British (and American) society has come to Nazism. In many ways it is much worse. For example, our propaganda organs are much more sophisticated and manipulative than the Nazis ever thought of being. You probably already know that right up till nearly the last most Germans thought Hitler was benevolent and a genius. He led them out of horrendous inflation and war reparations payments into economic prosperity and gave them a sense of being a folk of destiny. No matter that the per capita jail population took off like an ICBM, no matter that prison camps turned into labor (slave) pools, etc. Most Germans thought Hitler was unusually enlightened. It is a maxim that psychologists utter from time to time. "What you resist you become." We've resisted the drug culture and become one of the most drugged cultures ever. We've resisted poverty and become ever more dispossessed and impoverished. We've resisted the idea of police states and now we are a police state. When one is IDENTIFIED WITH something, such as you seem to be with "Britain is one of the more enlightened and workable democracies" it is impossible to IDENTIFY it. If you could step out and away from the society you are identified with and see it as it truly is you'd see it ever so differently. In what ways is it even a democracy, let alone enlightened? What say have you, or anyone else you know, ever really had in your government? Keep in mind that things are rarely what them seem. You've asked an important question, so perhaps you are ready for some answers. By identifying yourself as a conservative with a small "c" you seem to already be distancing yourself from the party of that name. I suspect you are really not all that much in the dark. Best wishes, Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 4 00:49:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22545 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:49:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA04425; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:41:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA04261 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:38:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.53] (r-66.47.alltel.net [166.102.66.47]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id XAA26484 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:42:01 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: uai@alltel.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19991203174057.15779.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:45:15 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Back to BD and Currency Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2571 >You remind me of the man >in the story that has been circulating around the list lately about planting >all those oak trees. There were wars going on all around him and without >giving much notice to the circumstances which surrounded him he just kept on >doing what he knew best; planting oak trees. Isn't that what we all were >meant to do? Isn't about time that we all enter into our secret gardens that >lay just beneath the crusty exterior of outerselves, and begin to apply the >very same spiritual princples of BD to our own lives, which in turn would >unlock some of the hidden mysteries of the outward? One of the hidden >principles that I have learned is "that which you send out or put forth will >return to you someday." After all, it appears that is exactly what you have >done on the land that you are presently working. You put so much of yourself >in to what you have done with as compared to what you had to start with; and >know you are able to reap the well deserved fruits of your labors. Thanks >for the post!!! One final question before I sign off. Dose anyone know if >any presentations or lectures are being planned for the Kansas City area in >the future. I would love to attend. Thanks again!!! >Charles Premoe Dear Charles, Thanks for the kind thoughts. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 4 08:04:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA25116 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 08:04:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA17027; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 07:56:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA16763 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 07:53:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.56] (pm3shep1-163-21.intrepid.net [209.190.163.21]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA03988 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 07:56:23 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 07:58:48 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: FWD: RE: Biopiracy Project in Chiapas, Mexico Denounced Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2572 Aloha, Relevant to this...I was at a talk by Helena Norberg-Hodge yesterday evening ("Learning from Ladakh," etc. and the ISEC, soon to be called Local Futures, http://www.isec.org.uk/ISEC/core.html ). At one point she was talking about when the "bio-pirates" (trans-national pharmaceutical companies) came to Tibet to get compounds from indigenous medicine to commercialize. She said they asked for stuff with no more than five active ingredients, because otherwise the testing they had to go through to get approved for commercial production would be too expensive. They were told by the monks/doctors that nothing they used had much less than 35 active ingredients. I gathered that they were somewhat discouraged by this and perhaps went away with no "loot." Perhaps this is true for these indigenous healers' formulations as well? ;-) John Schinnerer From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 4 08:04:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA25115 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 08:04:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA16985; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 07:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA16757 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 07:53:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.56] (pm3shep1-163-21.intrepid.net [209.190.163.21]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA03971 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 07:56:13 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 07:58:10 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: FWD: Biopiracy Project in Chiapas, Mexico Denounced Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id HAA16758 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2573 >- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >RAFI >Rural Advancement Foundation International >www.rafi.org | rafi@rafi.org >Usted puede obtener la version en castellano de esta informacion en nuestra >pagina web: http:/www.rafi.org/news > > >News Release -1 December 1999 > > >Biopiracy Project in Chiapas, Mexico >Denounced by Mayan Indigenous Groups > >University of Georgia Refuses to Halt Project > > >Eleven indigenous peoples' organizations are demanding that a US$2.5 >million, US-government funded bioprospecting program suspend its activities >in Chiapas, Mexico. Despite the protest by local Mayan organizations, the >University of Georgia (US) says it will not halt the five-year project, >which aims to collect and evaluate thousands of plants and microorganisms >used in traditional medicine by Mayan communities. > >Collectively known as the Council of Traditional Indigenous Midwives and >Healers of Chiapas (Consejo Estatal de Parteras y MÈdicos Indìgenas >Tradicionales de Chiapas), the eleven Mayan organizations are denouncing >the bioprospecting project, and they are asking other indigenous people in >Chiapas to refuse to cooperate with the researchers. The project is led by >the University of Georgia, in cooperation with a Mexican university >research center, El Colegio de la Frontera Sur (ECOSUR), and Molecular >Nature Ltd., a biotechnology company based in Wales, U.K. > >What is the Chiapas ICBG Project? >The five-year project "Drug Discovery and Biodiversity Among the Maya of >Mexico," now in its second year of operation, will receive a total grant of >US$2.5 million dollars from the US government's International Cooperative >Biodiversity Groups (ICBG). The ICBG is a consortium of US federal >agencies, including the National Institutes of Health (NIH), the National >Science Foundation (NSF) and the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) that >awards grants to public and commercial research institutions that conduct >bioprospecting/biopiracy programs in the South. The ICBG's self-stated goal >is to promote drug discovery from natural sources, biodiversity >conservation and sustainable economic growth in developing countries. For >additional information, go to: >http://www.nih.gov/fic/opportunities/icbg.html > >Using indigenous knowledge to guide its research, the Chiapas ICBG project >aims to discover, isolate and evaluate pharmacologically important >compounds from the plant species and microorganisms employed in traditional >Mayan medicine. The tropical mountains of Chiapas contain one of the >richest repositories of plant and animal biodiversity in the world. Over >the centuries, the Maya have developed a rich medical knowledge. An >estimated 6000 plant species thrive in the area, thousands of them used by >the Maya to treat illness. All promising biological samples will be >screened for their activity against cancer, diseases associated with >HIV-AIDS, central nervous system disorders, cardiovascular disease, and >gastrointestinal, respiratory/pulmonary, skin disorders and for >contraception. The Project will also conduct a comprehensive botanical >survey of the Central Chiapas Highlands, and it will promote sustainable >harvest and production of selected species that show high potential for >economic development. The project estimates that it will ultimately >identify approximately 2000 unique compounds that will be chemically >profiled by Molecular Nature, Ltd. the project's commercial partner based >in the UK. A duplicate set of plants collected by the ICBG program in >Chiapas will be deposited at the University of Georgia's Herbarium in >Athens, Georgia. > >Local Opposition >The bioprospecting program has outraged some indigenous peoples' >organizations in Chiapas who claim that their indigenous knowledge and >resources are being stolen. In a written declaration distributed in >Chiapas, the Council stated: "We, as traditional indigenous healers have >organized for the past 15 years to assert and improve our customary medical >practices... We have appealed to national and state authorities to suspend >this project. Now we are appealing to all indigenous peoples to refuse to >allow the researchers of ECOSUR to remove plants and information from our >communities." > >According to Sebastian Luna, an indigenous Tzeltal spokesperson from the >Council, "the project is a robbery of traditional indigenous knowledge and >resources, with the sole purpose of producing pharmaceuticals that will not >benefit the communities that have managed and nurtured these resources for >thousands of years." > >"Furthermore," continues Luna, "the project explicitly proposes to patent >and privatize resources and knowledge that have always been collectively >owned... Besides being totally contradictory to our culture and traditions, >the project creates conflict within our communities as some individuals, >pressured by the grave economic situation, collaborate with the researchers >for a few pesos or tools." > >"The project, led by anthropologist Brent Berlin of the University of >Georgia, is plundering our knowledge and taking plant samples from the >communities in Chiapas, returning almost nothing in exchange," adds Luna. >Professor Berlin, who is a past president and member of the International >Society of Ethnobiology (ISE), will host the ISE's Congress in October, >2000 in Georgia on the topic of benefit sharing with indigenous >communities. "We believe he is openly violating the Society's Code of >Ethics," concludes Luna. That Code, in its "Principle of Prior Informed >Consent and Veto" states: > > "the prior informed consent of all peoples and their communities must be >obtained before any research is undertaken. Indigenous peoples, traditional >societies and local communities have the right to veto any programme, >project, or study that affects them. Providing prior informed consent >presumes that all potentially affected communities will be provided >complete information regarding the purpose and nature of the research >activities and the probable results, including all reasonably foreseeable >benefits and risks of harm (be they tangible or intangible) to the affected >communities." (emphasis added) The full text is available at: >http://guallart.dac.uga.edu/ethics > >RAFI contacted Brent Berlin at the University of Georgia and asked if the >demands being made by the indigenous peoples' organizations in Chiapas are >grounds for suspending the bioprospecting program in Chiapas. Berlin, one >of the authors of the ISE's Code of Ethics, rejected the idea. "I'm >convinced that that question would not even be asked if these groups were >fully informed about the Project." > >"It's really critical," Berlin told RAFI, "that you stress our willingness >to resolve our differences [in Chiapas]. The concerns of the Consejo are >not being ignored. The issue is serious and must be resolved so that >everyone is aware of what the solution is. The main problem is that we've >not been able to sit down and talk," said Berlin. > >According to Rafael Alarcon, advisor to the Council, the agreement signed >by ECOSUR, the University of Georgia and Molecular Nature Ltd., also >"flaunts Mexican law, as these institutions have not consulted with or >obtained the prior informed consent of the affected communities. We >believe the agreement also violates international agreements that Mexico >has signed, including the UN Convention on Biological Diversity - >particularly Article 8j which addresses traditional knowledge and equitable >benefit sharing, and the ILO 169 Convention on Indigenous Rights." > >Alarcon continues, "ECOSUR invited one of the organizational members of the >State Council, OMIECH (the Chiapas Indigenous Healers Organization) to >participate in the bioprospecting agreement. They thought that the >indigenous healers would accept this project in exchange for a promise to >establish what they call a "benefit sharing" fund in the future. During the >meeting, we explained our disagreement with the objectives and methods of >the project. ECOSUR assured us that the project would not begin until, at >the very least, all the requirements in existing Mexican law were >fulfilled. However, they have already begun to remove samples from several >communities in Chiapas, and in June, 1999, they showed us a contract signed >by the three parties." > >Whose NGO? >"According to this contract," continues Alarcon, "the signatories (the >University of Georgia, ECOSUR, and Molecular Nature, Ltd.) have created a >non-profit organization called PROMAYA (Protection of Mayan Intellectual >Property Rights), which will act as their civil society counterpart." >PROMAYA will set up a trust fund for Mayan communities, and it will decide >how to disburse any royalties that accrue from the sale of drugs that >result from ICBG research in Chiapas. According to Alarcon, "The creation >of this NGO by the project clearly demonstrates the lack of will of the >researchers to ensure appropriate consultation with the traditional >cultures and true authorities of the communities. In essence, they create >their own dialogue partner, and invite participants and organizations that >will not question their way of working, probably in exchange for a tiny >scrap of the US$2.5 million that this project has received from the US >government." > >Public funds for private profit >Since 1993, the US government's ICBG has awarded 11 grants (3 are renewals) >for bioprospecting totaling US $18.5 million in 12 countries of the South >(Mexico, Peru, Chile, Argentina, Panama, Suriname, Madagascar, Vietnam, >Laos, Nigeria, Cameroon, Costa Rica). Commercial partners in ICBG-funded >projects include transnational pharmaceutical and agrochemical companies >Glaxo-Wellcome, Bristol Myers Squibb, Shaman Pharmaceuticals, Dow Elanco >Agrosciences, Wyeth-Ayerst, American Cyanamid, and Monsanto. > > "The use of public money to subsidize biopiracy is a form of corporate >welfare for the Gene Giants" said Hope Shand, RAFI's Research Director, >referring to the giant transnational enterprises that dominate agribusiness >and pharmaceutical industries. > >"These companies aim to synthesize and modify active biological compounds >in the laboratory that are derived from the resources and knowledge of >indigenous communities, because the companies' goal is to patent, >privatize, and profit from biodiversity," explains Shand. "The Chiapas >ICBG program has a clearly defined protocol for intellectual property on >any pharmaceutical product that might result from the research conducted in >Chiapas. It operates on the principle - at least on paper - that the >biological samples belong to Mexico and that some undisclosed portion of >royalties will flow back to the Highland Maya of Chiapas - via PROMAYA. The >reality is that long-term benefits may never materialize, and many local >indigenous people reject both intellectual property and the process >established for benefit-sharing via PROMAYA.. The critical issue now is >that the project is apparently proceeding not only without proper >consultation with the affected communities, but also against the express >wishes of a very significant sector of the community," said RAFI's Shand. > >Legal Biopiracy? >Dr Alejandro Nadal, Researcher at the Program of Science and Technology at >Colegio de Mexico (a postgraduate research institute) has publicly >denounced another biodiversity contract in Mexico signed by the Universidad >Autonoma de Mexico (UNAM). That project involves a contract between the >Diversa Corporation (US) and UNAM, in which the researchers of the >Biotechnology Institute of UNAM are obliged, according to the terms of the >contract, to provide samples of unique micro-organisms from natural >protected areas of Mexico to Diversa for a mere US$50 per sample. > >Dr Nadal, commenting on the Chiapas project, states that "similar to the >UNAM-Diversa contract, the project in Chiapas is not legally valid, as it >violates even the quite limited Mexican laws. This kind of contract is pure >theft of the unique biological resources of Mexico and of the indigenous >resources and knowledge of the traditional communities. These resources >are, according to the law, under the control and sovereignty of the State >of Mexico. Both ECOSUR and UNAM are making decisions about a collective >resource which they do not have any right to." > >Dr. Nadal adds, "We are facing a worrisome number of these kinds of >contracts, all of which aim to appropriate and privatize resources that >have always been communal and for the common good. Because Mexico is so >culturally and biologically diverse, large transnational corporations >working for medicinal and agricultural purposes are eager to harvest our >resources. These projects should be suspended immediately as they are >contrary to existing laws" > >The Council of Indigenous Traditional Midwives and Healers of the State of >Chiapas demands that the project in Chiapas be suspended and that any >project of this kind undergo a thorough review of Mexican laws to protect >their cultures and resources. They also demand that any similar projects >comply with international obligations arising from the Convention on >Biological Diversity - particularly its article 8j - and the ILO 169 >Convention on Indigenous Rights. Further, there should be implementation >at the national level of Farmers' Rights as negotiated within the Food and >Agriculture Organization of the United Nations. The Council also cites the >pressing need for a wide and informed discussion about the need, the >objectives and the benefits of these kinds of projects, including >discussions about who benefits. Finally, they demand that local health >projects designed by the communities themselves should be supported, >according to communities' own needs and priorities, and using the knowledge >and resources of traditional indigenous medicine. > > >For more information: >Consejo Estatal de Parteras y MÈdicos Indìgenas Tradicionales de Chiapas, >at OMIECH: >Sebasti·n Luna, Rafael AlarcÛn, Antonio PÈrez MÈndez, Margarito Ruiz, >Isidro LÛpez Rodrìguez. Phone/fax +52-67-8 54 38 (from Mexico 01-967-8 54 >38) >omiech@laneta.apc.org. > >Dr. Alejandro Nadal >Tel + 52-5-4493089 > >RAFI >Hope Shand >RAFI-USA Research Director >Tel +1-919-960 5223 >rafi@rafi.org > >RAFI >Silvia Ribeiro >silvia@rafi.org > >RAFI >International Office >Phone: 1-204-453 52 59 >rafi@rafi.org > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 4 10:43:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26127 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:43:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23472; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:39:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmx02.mail.com (rmx02.mail.com [165.251.32.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23337 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:38:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from web11.mail.com (web11.pub01.mail.com [165.251.32.21]) by rmx02.mail.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA18888 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:41:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <382001226.944322091282.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:41:31 -0500 (EST) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: FW:[Taking-control] COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN SEATTLE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.161.18.159 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2574 Subject: FW:[Taking-control] COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN SEATTLE Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 06:58:42 PST From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:19:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24967; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:15:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24738 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:11:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.204.45]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sat, 4 Dec 1999 16:15:11 +0000 Message-ID: <000401bf3e72$ee1f8460$2dcc2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: Re: Seattle Protest media bias Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 16:06:58 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2575 What a disturbing posting! The BBC is usually unbiased in its coverage (or, at least, equal numbers from each side of an issue complain about bias... !) although other media are not to be trusted. I remember a protest about the proposed siting of an experimental munitions range in SW Wales, which was locally very unpopular andin which I participated. The passage of the first artillery piece was blocked by a blue-rinsed elderly lady who had for years been the local Mayor, together with her friends from the Baptist Church Guild. One of our more widely read tabloid newspapers predictably reported that the gun had been halted by a sit-down of chanting longhaired hippies. As to the tailpiece, the 'V' sign (with the palm of the hand outwards) was widely used (and probably invented) by Winston Churchill during WW2 as a reassurance of eventual victory. I don't know when it became a 'peace' sign (maybe by way of "We shall overcome... " ?). In Britain, the same sign with the back of the hand outwards is the equivalent of the single finger which is a deadly insult in Italy; it represents the horns of the cuckold and is used as a quick, silent insult or expression of triumph against, say, a driver or pedestrian who has offended you. Is this also used in the US ? If so, only the context could establish which of the two was shown in Seattle! Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 4 12:45:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27202 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:45:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00348; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:41:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (web1.vphos.net [207.102.129.200]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00126 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:37:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.112]) by web1.vphos.net ; Sat, 04 Dec 1999 09:41:10 -0800 Message-ID: <001f01bf3e7e$c20e9440$6fcb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: Subject: FWD: Seattle MD Interview Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:41:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2576 Interview with Seattle MD: "This is the beginning of a police state" (posted on www.emperors-clothes.com at 1 am 12-4-99) My name is Richard DeAndrea. I'm a medical doctor. What I saw up here was martial law. This turned into a police state. Everything you have seen on television regarding local news broadcasts including national public radio was a blackout. The police were using concussion grenades. They were shooting tear gas canisters directly at protesters' faces. They were using so-called rubber bullets. These are actually hard plastic. Some of the damage I saw: these plastic bullets took off part of one person's jaw, smashed teeth in other people's mouths. I saw the police arrest people who had their hands up in the air screaming we are peacefully protesting. The amount of looting that took place was so minimal I don't even know where they got the footage from. I am saying this beyond a shadow of a doubt. This is a definite sign that America is heading towards a police state unless people start standing up for their rights as individuals. I am actually shocked and ashamed. I am ashamed of the police force, I am ashamed of the mayor I am ashamed of Bill Clinton. I am ashamed of the whole thing. Jared: These rubber bullets - what are they? Dr. DeAndrea: They are made of polyester type material. They are like a hard plastic toy. The idea is to hit your body, do damage, not actually penetrate. But I did see penetration wounds, I did see people bleeding. I did see teeth loss, I did see broken bones. There were children present, there were families present, they were firing upon families, mothers, grandmothers,. They were just firing at them. They came out in full police force. They brought out swat teams, they had the national guard up here, there was CIA surrounding the delegates' buildings. It was very obvious that there was an institutional control that had no regard of human rights whatever. In addition we have video footage of protesters being taken away as well as human rights being violated. Prisoners were taken and they were tortured. There is a case, I believe his name is Holm, Keith Holm. He was tortured because he would not give his name. They handcuffed, laid him on the floor, they smashed his face against the concrete, they grabbed his hair, they ripped out a lock of hair. and then placed pencils between his fingers and pressed on them until he would give his name. He refused. They were also banging his head against metal objects. He was actually the first protester released because the Internal Affairs came in to do an investigation and they wanted him gone because he would be able to give testimony. We're treating people in a studio loft downtown. I just treated an ear wound. People have been treated for concussion injuries. There have been people who have been treated for plastic bullet wounds. Lots of tear gas injuries, lots of damage to cornea, lots of damage to the eyes and skins. They were using a pepper spray, a tear gas and they were also using some sort of nerve gas. We had reports of many demonstrators winding up with seizures the next day. It causes muscles to clamp up, muscle contraction, seizures. They have done several illegal things regarding these people in jail. They have been telling them that they would not be let out, not have their bail set if they didn't give their names. Its their legal right not to give their name. They don't have to speak at all. Attorneys came up and said we are representing these people. The police called the attorneys liars. At this point they have still refused to let any of them see their clients. There are close to 600 people who were arrested and they have been holding them for two days on charges that are mostly misdemeanors, such as refusal to disperse. A lot of people in there have not gotten medical attention either. I have gotten calls from young ladies in there who have had all sorts of emotional problems as well as physical problems. They have called me for medical attention from inside the jail. There are people still sitting in there who have not even been processed. Today there were fewer attacks by police, but they did arrest more people. And there was no violence today by the marchers and all through the day yesterday it was the same. What you are seeing on television about looting and anarchistic protesters - there's astraight-out blackout and they are basically pushing that [line]. There is not much damage to property here. There are not many windows that have been damaged or stores that have been looted. Those are extremely rare cases. I used to believe newspapers were telling the truth. But now I am no longer behind that. This is the beginning of a police state. You can quote me on that. *** From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 4 13:53:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27838 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:53:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04684; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:49:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04542 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:47:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (sdn-ar-005azphoeP216.dialsprint.net [158.252.129.2]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15909 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:50:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3849647C.5DB07B94@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:59:08 -0700 From: Jim and Jenni Muir X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {TLC;RETAIL} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF [Fw: from protester in Seattle] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2577 We just received this forwarded post (originated in US) from a friend in Australia. It's the worst we have heard yet! Jim and Jenni Muir > *** Begin of forwarded message *** > > >>>---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>>Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 14:59:37 EST > >>>From: Free Student Press Project > >> > >>>Subject: More from Seattle -- 12/3/99 > >>> > >>>The following is written by me, Damon Krane, a 20 year-old college > student > >>>who rode a bus two and a half days from Pittsburgh, PA to join the > protests > >>>against anti-democratic corporate domination and the exploitation of > human > >>>and animal life and the natuaral resources of this planet for the sake > of > >>>profit, as represented by the WTO, which seeks to worsen the situation > and > >>>take decision further and further away from the people whose lives are > >>>affected by them. The oligopolistic interests of corporate domination > >>>fought back, the Constitution was suspended, and seattle became a > police > >>>state. But yesterday we prevailed, winning several important > victories > and > >>>raising public awareness. > >>> > >>>Permission is given to reprint this piece or excerpts from it to all > who > >>>recieve this message. Please forward it to others. > >>> > >>> > >>>Much more has happened since I wrote Tuesday's story. Wednesday night > my > >>>friend and I were hit with a concusion grenade and a tear gas > cannister > >>>fired from an armored personnel carrier. We were in our house on > 10th. > Ave. > >>>on Capitol Hill when we heard teargas being shot off outside. Capitol > Hill > >>>is a residential area and the part we are in is blocks and blocks away > from > >>>the curfew zone where martial law had been established, yet police > were > >>>pursuing protesters and gassing bystanders. We rushed outside, and > standing > >>>in the front yard we saw the armored vehicle traveling down the street > >>>toward us. My friend was outraged. This was his house, his > neighborhood. > >>>People were allowed to be outside their houses and on the streets. > But > when > >>>we didn't run back inside and showed our objection to the police's > tactics > >>>(I raised both middle fingers and my friend shouted "Go Home! We > don't > want > >>>you here!"), an officer in full riot gear and gas mask raised his > gas-gun > >>>and aimed it directly at us. As he was doing that, another officer > fired > a > >>>concussion grenade at us. It exploded and a few of the rubber pellets > hit > >>>me in the arm. As we turned to run back inside, the first officer > fired > the > >>>tear gas cannister. It hit the house inches from a window and just as > close > >>>to our heads. It exploded in a bright flash and began spewing gas as > we > ran > >>>to the door. We got inside, yelling and grasping our friends. We > realized > >>>we were right in front of a window that faced out onto the street. We > >>>turned to see the armored vehicle passing as the officers aimed their > >>>weapons in at us. I yelled, "Get down!!" and everyone dropped to the > floor. > >>> As the vehicle passed we began stuffing clothes underneath the door > to > >>>keep out as much of the tear gas as we could. > >>> Their was no crowd to disperse in that instance; no unruly mob > >>>threatening to destroy property. My friend and I were standing in > front > of > >>>his house, and after identifying ourselves as protesters (this time of > a > >>>police state and not the WTO) the police attacked us. They attacked > many > >>>other Capitol Hill residents that evening, gassing, beating and > >>>pepper-spraying them. We watched on the news as one resident > approached > >>>police yelling, "There are no protesters here. We're all residents! > What > >>>are you doing here!?" Three officers then sprayed the man > simultaneously > >>>with pepper spray. We watched a woman be tackled and held to the > pavement > >>>as one officer hit her repeatedly in the head with a club and another > >>>sprayed her face. The scenes we witnessed were worse than any footage > I've > >>>seen of police brutality during the Civil Rights Movement of the > 1960's. > It > >>>became very clear that the police posed an incredible threat to the > safety > >>>of the people of Seattle that night. As paranoid as this may sound, > we > >>>devised an escape plan if police raided our house. But with that > vision > of > >>>a man in uniform raising a gun and firing it at my head -an image I > don't > >>>think I'll ever forget- it seemed better to be safe than sorry. > >>> Another friend said that evening that we weren't unique in our > >>>situation, and she wasn't just talking about Seattle. Throughout the > >>>history of this country similar violence has been aimed at people > struggling > >>>for social justice. Right now all across the world it is aimed at > such > >>>people. Similar violence has been -and is- aimed at African-Americans > in > >>>this country for simply being African-Americans. "There's plenty of > people > >>>that this system thinks are worth less than shit," she said. "We > aren't > >>>unique." For privileged white kids like us, though, this was a very > new > >>>experience. But for one night we new what it was like to live in a > >>>totalitarian police state. We knew what it was like to be a > Salvadoran > >>>peasant; an indegenious farmer in Chiapas, Mexico; a native advocate > of > >>>Timorese or Tibetan independence; a student struggling for democracy > in > >>>Burma; an black man in America; a Native American in America; a Jew in > Nazi > >>>Germany. > >>> Tuesday and Wednesday the police were targeting anyone with a > medic's > >>>armband who was trying to help give first aid to the injured > protesters, > by > >>>singling them out for pepper spray and beatings. They soon learned to > hide > >>>their armbands. It's hard to imagine that it was a coincidence that > the > >>>residents of Capitol Hill were terrorized by police, for it was the > >>>residents of Capitol Hill who had been most sympathetic to out-of-town > >>>protesters, providing them with places to stay. Anyone offering > support > or > >>>protection to the portesters was targetted by police and the city made > it > >>>illegal to buy, sell, or carry gas masks. > >>> The same officer who I had pleasantly spoken to earlier that day, > whose > >>>hand I had shook, could have been the same officer who had fired that > tear > >>>gas cannister at my head; the officer who had clubbed me the day > before; > or > >>>the one who pulled my hand away to spray me in the eyes with pepper > spray. > >>>The worst attorcities this world has ever seen have not been committed > by > >>>deranged psychopaths or the "criminally insane." They have been > committed > >>>by ordinary people, no different from you and me, who have been > trained > to > >>>blindly follow orders: soldiers, police officers. And now my friends > and > I > >>>were the targets of these people as was anyone who did not flee them; > anyone > >>>who did not readily submit to their tyranny. And, by virtue of their > >>>uniform, these people had become our enemies and the greatest threat > to > the > >>>people of Seattle. > >>> That night the national press coverage started to reveal some of > the > >>>real story in Seattle and public pressure came down on Seattle; the > ACLU > >>>filed suit against the city for it's disregard for the Constitution; > and, > >>>though it was still prefaced with the outright lie that the attacks of > >>>police were justifiably provoked by protesters, one local station > began > >>>airing the notion that "police may have gone too far" between clips of > >>>unarmed bystanders being brutally beaten. I'm assuming that it was > all > of > >>>this public pressure that finally restrained the police and their > superiors. > >>> No pepper spray, clubs, tear gas, concussion grenades, or rubber > bullets > >>>were used during a fulll day of protests, rallies and marches > Thursday. > And > >>>to the surprise of none of the protesters, there was NO VIOLENCE and > NO > >>>DESTRUCTION OF PROPERTY! > >>> Last night, residents of Capitol Hill organized a march against > police > >>>brutality and joined WTO protesters One local station finally let the > >>>residents --many of them visibly bruised and battered-- tell their > stories. > >>>An emergency city council meeting was held yesterday, and many people > are > >>>calling for the resignation of the mayor and police chief. I think > that's a > >>>good place to start. > >>> After not being turned back by two solid days of the police in > full > >>>riot gear, their gas, bullets, clubs, and the National Guard, we > protesters > >>>won a huge victory yesterday. In defiance of the No-Constitution, > >>>No-Democracy zone, we marched into the city's downtown streets and > >>>congregated in Victor Steinburg (sp?) park. With the Puget Sound > behind > us > >>>and a beautiful blue sky overhead for the first time in three days of > rain, > >>>the sun shined down on a rally of several thousand people. Ralph > Nader, > >>>Vandana Shiva, Jim Hightower, and many, many others addressed the > crowd. > >>>Labor Unionists and small farmers spoke from the same stage as a woman > from > >>>Eath First! and other envornmentalists. They cheered for one another. > >>>Small family farmers -not just from the US but from France, Brazil, > the > >>>Philipines, Korea, and Brazil- spoke out in solidarity against the > World > >>>Trade Organization. A man from Green Peace anounced that they had > succeded > >>>in blocking a ship full of genetically engineered, WTO endorsed > >>>"Franken-food" from Entering France. We heard of an all-day > demonstration > >>>being held in the Neatherlands, and of anti-WTO demonstrators > surrounding > >>>the embassy of the counrty most directly responsible for exploiting > their > >>>people and resources -- the United States. From there, we split up > and > >>>marched to various the headquarters of various corporate criminals > like > the > >>>Cargill Corporation and others. After demonstrations where held in > those > >>>places, we coverged on the King County Jail and staged a sit-in in > response > >>>to the 587 protesters who had been illegally arrested and had been > illegally > >>>detained for over 36 hours without being charged for anything or being > >>>permitted access to phones or lawyers. > >>> We demonstrated there for several hours and local businesses > delivered > >>>pizza, bread, and sandwiches in support of us. After nightfall, > lawyers > >>>from the Direct Action Network's legal team addressed the crowd. The > city > >>>had been forced to enter into negotiations with them and had ageed to > let > >>>them meet with the prisoners for the first time on the condition that > we > >>>would leave the jail. If an acceptable agreement is not reached, > we'll > be > >>>back at the jail today. > >>> Once the lawyers waved to us from inside the we left voluntarily > and > >>>marched out of downtown, this time with a police escort, as onlookers > >>>cheered, waved from bus windows and honked car horns in support. On > the > >>>windows of one local business was a sign reading: "Closed in support > of > WTO > >>>protesters." As we marched through the streets we chanted "This is > what > >>>democracy looks like!" and "The people united will never be divided!" > and > >>>"This is only the beginning!" > >>> Some of us were veteran activists accustomed to pepper spray, > some > >>>were young newcomers like me who had never been sprayed or suffered a > blow > >>>from a police officer's club before this week, but we all refused to > be > >>>silenced, and yesterday we prevailed. The past few days have included > the > >>>worst experiences of my life, but yesterday may have been the best. > To > be > >>>part of a movement made up of people of conscience from across the age > >>>spectrum, the country, and the world; to be part of that movement's > >>>successes from shutting down the first day of secret WTO meetings, to > >>>getting lawyers to our friends, to overcoming police violence and > biased > >>>media coverage; to be inseperable attached to the struggles of the > past, > the > >>>struggles of the world, and the struggle for a just future, is a > feeling > of > >>>community and solidarity and empowerment that I don't even have the > words > to > >>>describe. This country is long overdue for a political awakening and > this > >>>is only the beginning. > >>> > >>>-Damon Krane > >>>Seattle: 12/3/99 > >>> > > > > --------- End forwarded message ---------- > > *** End of forwarded message *** From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 4 14:43:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28288 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:43:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07860; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:39:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07674 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:36:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ap.net (D-29.Portal-02.ap.net [207.44.186.62]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02258 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:39:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38496DBA.FDC6E67E@ap.net> Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:38:34 -0800 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: FW:[Taking-control] COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN SEATTLE References: <382001226.944322091282.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2578 Like the kids used to say "pass it on". The lead picture in a local newspaper here in Santa Rosa, California showed a cop in full riot gear kicking a protestor in the genitals while pointing what appeared to be a multiple shot tear gas cannister gun at his face. Who did this? Do you wonder? Not Clinton/not Monsanto/Not Novartis/Not the six guys who own the world either. Stockholders from allover the world who care nothing for personal integrity or freedom just like the WTO delegate who was armed with a handgun. But they are armed with silence. When stockholders vote, they are silent. Wake them up. Put their names on every laundry room bulletin board in your town. These are public companies, the stockholders names have to be listed publicly somewhere. Wake up in Seattle. Its your neighbor's silence that let this happen. The mayor claims in the media that to arrest folks peacefully would have made things worse since they did not have enough cops and would have had to use military personnel. I guess he thought the only alternative was to use live ammo. Do you love your children Seattle? You husbands, how would you have felt to come home to find your pregnant wife on the floor of your home chocking on pepper gas? Show them! now Seattle. Recall the idiot who calls himself mayor. Bury the Chief of Police in lawsuits. Protect your future and your families today. Have courage/don't accept lies. davidi/a citizen who has had too much. Pam DeTray wrote: > Subject: FW:[Taking-control] COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN SEATTLE > Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 06:58:42 PST > From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: GMO-L@cornell.edu, pastpat@thepoint.net, amrmeb@ime.net, > jana@mountainmax.net, anneb@angelfire.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org, > Leslie_Dickson@law.state.ak.us, Pdflick@aol.com, alex1house@aol.com > > COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN SEATTLE > by Portland student/reporter Jim Desyllas > > Called-in from a pay phone outside Seattle. Wed., 7:30 pm Pacific time. > (Posted at www.emperors-clothes.com 12-2-99. Feel free to distribute in full > including this note.) > > I just spent 4 days in Seattle. The "information" people are getting from > the mass media is false. This was not, as Pres. Clinton claims, a peaceful > protest marred by the actions of violent protesters. This was a massive, > strong but peaceful demonstration which was attacked repeatedly by the > police with the express purpose of provoking a violent response to provide > photo opportunities for the Western media. I know because I watched it > happening. I'll tell you how they did it. > > As Michel Chossudovsky says in his "Disarming the New World Order" (See Note > # 1 at end for link to that article) - the government put a lot of effort > into making sure the protesters in Seattle were a "loyal opposition" who > wanted to reform the WTO, not get rid of it. But the people in Seattle - > American steel workers, Canadian postal workers, college kids from all over, > environmentalists from Australia - you name it - were not for reforming the > WTO. They were for getting rid of it. > > And this wasn't just true of the protesters. I interviewed delegates. None > of them had anything favorable to say about the WTO. > > Two delegates from the Caribbean were angry about job loss. One delegate > from Peru took a bullhorn and got up on a car and spoke to the protestors > against the World Trade Organization. He said it hurts the workers and > farmers. I interviewed a Norwegian guy from Greenpeace. Totally against it. > Even a delegate from Holland said it had hurt the farmers there. He said > though it is supposedly democratic, that's actually a lie: the US, England > and Canada and a few others get together and decide what they want to do. > Then they ask the rest of the countries to vote and if they vote wrong they > threaten,"You won't get loans," or whatever. They get them to do what they > want by blackmailing them. The Italians we interviewed were upset too. I > couldn't find any delegates who were in favor. > > So the government instigated a "riot" to discredit the movement against the > WTO because they couldn't dilute it. I am not guessing about this. I was > there. I saw it happening. And I will tell you I am frankly shocked to see, > close up, just how little our leaders care what happens to ordinary people. > Clinton can pose and speak a lot of flowery stuff but the truth is - we are > nothing to them. I saw this with my own eyes. > > Sunday and Monday, there was no violence. None. The people were aggressively > non-violent; they were self-policing. Up until Tuesday at 4pm there was one > window broken in the whole city - a McDonalds window. This compares > favorably to the typical rock concert, let alone a demonstration of people > who were non-violently barring entry to the World Trade Center! > > At this point, a new group of police - tactical police - moved in and > started gassing people and shooting rubber bullets. Is it any surprise that > people got mad? Of course, the young kids hit back by breaking some windows > in retaliation for being gassed, sprayed with very painful pepper gas, and > shot with dangerous "rubber" bullets. The police instigated these kids, > plain and simple. Sunday and Monday they had young cops, using them to block > the streets. These were trainees. But Tuesday they had the real cops; none > of them were young. They were trained to attack people. A small group, maybe > 100 people total, struck back. Then these cops herded that group around the > city, making sure there were plenty of photo ops of "violent protesters." A > number of times they had these 100 or so protesters caught between buildings > and walls of police. They could easily have arrested and detained this small > number of people and gotten it over with. Instead they would gas them and > let them go. Then trap them again, gas them again, and again let them go. > The cops made no arrests that I know of until late Tuesday night though the > skirmishing was going on from three till 9:30. The cops would blockade three > or five blocks of an area, give the angry kids room to operate, keep gassing > them - when you gas a person, let me tell you, it gets them fighting mad. > > Tuesday night the police gassed all of downtown. This was going on from 3 > PM, till 6 PM.. Gas everywhere. The kids broke a few windows - McD's, > Starbucks - small stuff - burned a few garbage cans. The police were using > these people as extras. It was staged. I believe also the police had their > own people in there, encouraging people to break stuff - if people think I > may be exaggerating, I saw supposed protesters - they were screaming and so > on - and then later, when everything was over, the same people tackled other > protestors and put handcuffs on them. > > At 6pm they issued a State of Emergency. At that point they had pushed the > 100 people outside the city limits, so the police went outside the limits > too, and they started gassing that area too, gassing the neighborhoods where > the regular people live. I am not exaggerating. The police were relentless. > > This was in an area from the city limits for about 10 blocks to the Seattle > Central Community College. If you were alive, the police gassed you. People > coming back from work, kids, women, everyone. People would go out of their > houses to see what was happening because these tear gas guns sound like a > cannon - and they would get gassed. A block away there was a Texaco gas > station - they threw tear gas at gas pumps, believe it or not - they were > like vandals. They gassed a bus. I saw it with my own eyes. A bus. The > driver, the riders, the people just abandoned it . > > I was sitting in a little coffee shop called Rauhaus, [Jim did not spell > this - the spelling may be wrong.] They were shooting "rubber" bullets at > the glass. I picked up a dozen of the things in a few square feet. They were > also shooting this paint that you can only see with a florescent light. They > would paint anyone and everyone and then go hunting them. > > Anyway, because they were gassing everybody, the local people got mad too > and they joined the 100 who had been herded out of the city. So soon there > were 500 including the neighborhood people and all very angry. Naturally. > Because they had been gassed and hit with pepper spray, that stuff does a > number on you. And shot with these damn bullets. Then people set up > barricades at Seattle Central Community College. The cops organized > themselves for about an hour and then moved in and gassed that area. Today > they started mass arrests. That was because Clinton - the Greeks call him > the Planitarchis, Ruler of the World - was coming. Weeping crocodile tears > about how he just LOVES peaceful protest, which of course you'd have to be > two years old to believe he had nothing to do with the police action. This > whole thing, this police attack, this was US foreign policy, not some action > decided by some bureaucrat in Seattle. This was the State Department. They > wanted to discredit the people. > > When things started on Sunday, there was a protest rally of solidarity > involving people from different walks of life. Monday it got even bigger. > Tuesday there was a big sort of carnival where people were doing different > things, a band was playing music and people were blocking the World Trade > Center. And about 3 PM the cops started throwing tear gas. The thing that > drove Clinton crazy was that on Tuesday the protesters had succeeded in > making nonviolent human chains and had therefore stopped everyone from going > into the World Trade Center. Only maybe 27 delegates got through, mostly US > and British. There were what seemed like tens of thousands of protesters > involved. So the police did their gassing number against these nonviolent > people to break up the human chains and make the protesters look violent. > > Today (Wednesday) I followed the union protest put together by the > Longshoremen's Union. They went down to the docks and had a rally then > marched to Third Avenue. As soon as they got there the cops started gassing > them. There was an old lady there. She had gone downtown by bus to buy > something. This lady was in her 70's and I saw her trying to run, but she > couldn't breathe. She was in shock. I carried her to a building entryway. > She was gasping, terrified. She had been in Germany, and it was like she was > having flashbacks. The tear gas sounds like gunfire and there were > helicopters overhead, sirens, cops on horses, everything. They had clearly > made a decision to destroy this movement. So anyway there I was with her in > this building and she wanted to go to the hospital but there was tear gas > everywhere and I was afraid if I tried to move her she'd be gassed again. I > went to this line of cops and begged - I mean begged - these riot police to > help her. They ignored me. > > A girl told me later that a one year old had been gassed. And I myself saw a > girl no more than 18 - a cop had busted her lip wide open - she was bleeding > - and then they gassed everyone including her. After that she was kneeling > on the ground crying like a baby and praying for 15 minutes, Hail Mary, Hail > Mary. Over and over. She was in a state of shock. > > They just gassed these people who were sitting down non-violently and doing > nothing. Nothing. At one point the Seattle Mayor said his boys were not > using rubber bullets. Miraculously, by then I had ten in my pocket. I could > open a little market, sell the things. They are everywhere. I and other > people started giving them to delegates and stuff. "See what they're doing? > They're shooting "rubber" bullets and lying about it." We showed them to the > media. I guess enough people and the media got the information because the > Mayor made a new statement then that they were using them. As if he hadn't > known. They shot rubber bullets from four feet away into the face of a guy > next to me, broke all his front teeth. When that happened I lost it. I > forgot I was supposed to be getting the news for all of you and I started > yelling at the cops, "What the hell is wrong with you? Are you sick, man?" > So this cop aimed his gun right at me. That was his answer. So I first put > my hands in front of my face because I didn't want to lose my teeth. And > then I thought, to hell with it. I was wearing my target shirt that said > "Collateral Damage", you know? With a bullseye target, like they wore during > the bombing in Yugoslavia. And I told this guy, "Go ahead, shoot! Here! > Here's the target!" He didn't shoot me. > > I want to emphasize, these protesters were NOT violent people. They were the > most non-violent people I have ever seen. Even when I was screaming at the > cop, this girl came up to me and said, "Do not scream. This is non-violent." > These people were too much to believe. They must meditate all the time, I > don't know. Clinton said he supports nonviolent protest. That is baloney. > Today (Wed.) the protesters were causing absolutely no "trouble". In > downtown the cops had people running who weren't even protesters - like that > old lady or just people going to work or shopping - everyone was getting > gassed. The busses weren't running because of the gas. I was lucky to catch > one with a driver who could still see. I begged him to drive the old lady > home - the driver changed his route especially for her. If you want to find > human decency, stay away from the Planitarchis. Go to the to regular people. > They have some. The Planitarchis lost all his years ago. Now he wouldn't > know human decency if it came up and bit him. > > So now I have made personal acquaintance with the people who run this > country, and they are quite simply scum. There were people at work, people > with babies, they were all getting gassed because the government would not > allow an assembly of people speaking their minds. It is the same as what > happened in Athens. Clinton's requirements on the Greek government created > the riot and he did the same thing here. And then he says he supports > nonviolent protest? How? By shooting rubber bullets? And today they outlawed > gas masks. They want to make sure everyone gets his money's worth. > > Today, just like yesterday night, the police were in the residential > neighborhoods. People in cafes were getting gassed and shot at, you could > hear it on the windows, bang, bang, bang. A guy trying to cross the street > to go to his house got gassed. First a drunk guy outside a bar yelled at the > cops "Get out of here!" so they gassed him. And then this other guys was > just crossing the street to go home so the cops figured, might as well gas > him too. People got gassed for coming out of restaruants and bars and > coffeee shops. I'm amazed that nobody died who had asthma or something. Or > maybe somebody did die and they didn't talk about it. I mean after all, it's > just collateral damage.. *** > > Note # 1 - For a critical look at the World Trade Organization, click on > SEATTLE AND BEYOND: DISARMING THE NEW WORLD ORDER or go to > http://www.emperors-clothes.com/articles/chuss/seattle.htm If you're on AOL > click here: HREF=3D"http://www.emperors-clothes.com/articles/chuss/seattle.htm"SEATTLE > AND BEYOND > If you would like to browse articles from Emperors-Clothes.com, click here > Or go to: http://www.emperors-clothes.com or if you're on AOL HREF=3D"http://www.emperors-clothes.com/"Click here: The Emperors Clothes > CAFCA Campaign Against Foreign Control of Aotearoa PO Box 2258, Christchurch > email: cafca@chch.planet.org.nz > > _______________________________________________ > Taking-control maillist - Taking-control@converge.org.nz > http://www.converge.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/taking-control > > ----------------------------------------------- > FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com > Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 5 00:25:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA03522 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 00:25:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA11152; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 00:21:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.65]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11100 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 00:20:38 -0500 (EST) From: NEILLCO@aol.com Received: from NEILLCO@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id h.0.63569a4e (4459) for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 00:23:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.63569a4e.257b50cf@aol.com> Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 00:23:27 EST Subject: Comfrey tea; dangerous? To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2579 Someone mentioned using Comfrey for tea. I've read that while Comfrey does have healing compounds (allantoin, rosmarinic acid) it also contains toxins called pyrrolizidine alkaloids (PAs) which are known to be harmful to the liver. According to Dr Andrew Weil (http://www.pathfinder.com/drweil/qa_answer/0,3189,1034,00.html) "long term use of comfrey internally can lead to liver cancer as well as damage to lungs and other organs". RB From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 5 01:11:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA03777 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 01:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA13019; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 01:07:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12830 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 01:02:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from computer (whan-014.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.114]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA21595 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:11:18 +1300 Message-ID: <001501bf3ee6$54118de0$72f631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: BD Yarn Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:02:30 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2580 Have forwarded your request to some sheep farmers Gareth Bodle -----Original Message----- From: John P. Thomas To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, 4 December 1999 05:42 AM Subject: BD Yarn >There was or maybe still is a company in Seattle, Washington, USA, which >distributed yarn made from New Zealand biodynamic wool. Does anyone know >if Creative Yarns International is still in business? Their phone number >is no longer in service and they no longer advertise in knitting trade >publications. Also I would be interested to know of other wholesale >sources for biodynamic yarn, especially New Zealand yarns. My partner has >a knitting business and would like to switch some of her production of >infant sweaters, hats, and mittens to BD wool. > >You may not know that commercial wool and cotton yarns are quite toxic. >They contain many chemicals and petroleum based lubricants which are added >during the cleaning and spinning process. Some even contain insecticides >to kill moth larva which might dare to snack on the yarn at some future >point in time. > >Thanks John > >St. George Farm >Freedom, Maine, USA > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 5 09:47:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06505 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 09:47:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28591; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 09:43:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28466 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 09:42:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ghost (pool-209-138-54-142.tmpa.grid.net [209.138.54.142]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA29504 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 09:45:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003b01bf3f2e$b11bd520$8e368ad1@ghost> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Enigma" To: References: Subject: Re: OFF: FWD: Seattle Protest media bias Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 09:40:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2581 > About corporate media, I think McLuhan said, in a different context, "They > distract from distraction by distracting." If things get bad enough, I'm > sure we'll have to hear about the president's penis again. > > -Allan The only channle not run by the liberals and makes an attempt to report the news is the Fox news Channel, not to be confused with news on the fox network. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 5 10:01:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06565 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:01:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29667; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 09:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA29561 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 09:55:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ghost (pool-209-138-54-142.tmpa.grid.net [209.138.54.142]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA21355 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 09:59:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <006d01bf3f30$964a6020$8e368ad1@ghost> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Enigma" To: References: <003b01bf3dab$d0921600$facd2cc3@m00q6c00> Subject: Re: Fw: In Seattle: Reports #1, #2, #3, #3.5 & #4 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 09:54:09 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2582 > However, I must protest strongly about the posting from 'Andy', who > apparently lives in a brutal police-state England scarcely distinguishable > from Nazi Germany ! Can there be another England apart from the one in > Britain ? > Maybe I'm just an old conservative (with a small 'c' !) and > admittedly I live in Wales but, to me, Britain is one of the more > enlightened and workable democracies, even though it still has far to go in > many directions. Well, Nazi was a bit extreme, but England has no guaranteed Personal Freedoms, and to me personally is oppressive. There is also the socialism which causes oppressive taxes. Our country is trying to go that way and we are fighting it. I would not want to live in England for those reasons, I could not even consider Canada. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 5 11:26:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07148 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:26:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04189; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04083 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:21:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.202.151]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:24:53 +0000 Message-ID: <000201bf3f3d$738f7680$97ca2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: OFF: Democracy vs Nazism (was Seattle: Reports... ) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:25:35 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2583 Dear Hugh - I defer to your comments on bio-dynamics, horticulture in general and practical aspects of spirituality, and I know that you are personally involved in politics, but I can't let you get away with some of your statements in answer to my protest that Britain is miles away from being close to a Nazi state. I wish that we could discuss this at length, over coffee or beers, as I used to with colleagues and postgrads at the university, but it's not really closely enough related to the main themes of BDNow! to go on at such length. I'll try to get hold of the David Icke books that you mentioned but (without meaning to take a cheap shot at him or yourself) is this the David Icke who used to work as a television sports reporter, dropped out of sight and then reappeared claiming to be Jesus Christ ? I agree that it's possible to disseminate propaganda in a much more sophisticated way now than in Nazi Germany, but surely the point is that it can be done _against_ as well as _for_ official purposes (take this Internet, for a start !). With exceptions for obscenity, libel and reasonable restraint against (for example) detailed bomb-making instructions, I'm perfectly free to publish anything, even if it has to be done at my own expense and effort (try that in Nazi Germany); I had thought that this is even more true in the USA ? Sure, most Germans (with the notable exception of Jews, communists, other trades-union activists, homosexuals who were not also members of the SA or SS, 'degenerates' whether in the arts or their physical/mental condition and various other social undesirables such as gypsies) supported Hitler; a number of my relatives came back from visits to prewar Germany with glowing accounts of Hitler's achievements and kept copies of Mein Kampf by their bedside. Most people will support a leader who "makes the trains run on time", provides busy-work for the unemployed, bolsters national pride by building up an efficient-looking military machine etc. One of my postgrads wouldn't hear a word spoken against Saddam Hussein; Ba'athist education policies had raised him, in stages, from an Iraqi peasant background to a prestigious position as a research biologist in one of their major universities (after he'd returned to Iraq, we discovered that he severely beat up any of his fellow-students who did speak a word against..., but they dared not report this). I don't quite follow your point about identity/identify; of course I identify with Britain - I've lived here all my long life (including in London under bombs and ballistic missiles, not the best time to feel sympathetic towards Nazism !), but that need not mean that my eyes are cemented shut to many deficiencies. I'm rather pissed off with being labelled, as though that defines my every thought (and, by the way, does anyone know if the 'Andy' whose posting set this off is British ? He seems to have stepped some distance away from such an identity !) Under what is essentially a two-party system, one in government and the other in opposition, no one citizen will ever get everything he'd like, even if the party he votes for sticks to every electoral promise when in power. To that extent, yes, I have no say in some of the main national issues (is there any workable system in which I could ?). However, on more local issues I've had plenty of influence: for example, the munitions range which I mentioned in another posting was not sited where the Defence Ministry wanted it, because of the strength of local opposition, much of which I co-ordinated. More diffusely, central Government has recently responded to public pressure on GMOs, foxhunting and similar issues. I'm hopeful that regional assemblies, such as that now set up for Wales, will increase the power of the individual citizen even on more vital matters. However, I seem to hear Allan muttering "this correspondence must now cease... " Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 5 13:24:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08262 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 13:24:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11953; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 13:20:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.real.on.ca (mail2.real.on.ca [209.167.186.129]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAB11723 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 13:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from real.on.ca (pppD17.mco.net [209.167.186.37]) by mail2.real.on.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA26147 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 13:20:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <384AAC41.599B9634@real.on.ca> Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 13:17:37 -0500 From: Gary Elliott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Fw: In Seattle: Reports #1, #2, #3, #3.5 & #4 References: <003b01bf3dab$d0921600$facd2cc3@m00q6c00> <006d01bf3f30$964a6020$8e368ad1@ghost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2584 Ah yes, another American-centric view of the world. "We are the most free country in the world, so free we are allowed to peacefully protest on the streets of Seattle and be able to let the police and National Guard fire rubber bullets and tear gas at us. So much for your entrenched "personal freedoms".At least no one on this list has tried to blame it on some mythical UN troops, so that is a start towards accurate thinking. I used to work in the US, and would mention to people that I was from Canada.Invariably I would get questions about our "socialized" health care system, and how did we ever put up with it. I would always respond that we put up with it in the same manner as Americans put up with their "socialized sidewalks." You know, where you tax everyone, build the sidewalks for everyone, and let everyone, rich or poor to use them, for the common good. That would usually shut them up. That's not to say that there are are not problems with our type of health care. But the fact is, we have a longer average life span than Americans.( So does most of Europe, using health care systems similar to Canada's). And we spend probably 30% less per person than the Americans to do it. In short, it works cheaper for the greatest good. Most people in the world have the ability to glean from the rest of the world the best ideas and incorporate them into their system. I find the American way is to assume that "if it is American, it must be good, no need to look for alternatives" I read an amazing statistic not long ago, that over 30% of the American Congress did not have passports. Which means they do not travel outside their country. Would never happen in the rest of the world. When your chief lawmakers choose not to look at the rest of the world, you have a problem. This is not meant to be a total rant against the American way. Americans have this incredible optimism, their glass is always half full. However, this optimism sometimes feels false, as if all the appropriate questions are not being asked. Ignorance can be bliss, if we let it. Gary Elliott Parkhill, Ontario . Enigma wrote: > > However, I must protest strongly about the posting from 'Andy', > who > > apparently lives in a brutal police-state England scarcely distinguishable > > from Nazi Germany ! Can there be another England apart from the one in > > Britain ? > > Maybe I'm just an old conservative (with a small 'c' !) and > > admittedly I live in Wales but, to me, Britain is one of the more > > enlightened and workable democracies, even though it still has far to go > in > > many directions. > > Well, Nazi was a bit extreme, but England has no guaranteed Personal > Freedoms, and to me personally is oppressive. There is also the socialism > which causes oppressive taxes. Our country is trying to go that way and we > are fighting it. I would not want to live in England for those reasons, I > could not even consider Canada. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 5 15:04:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08946 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:04:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA19759; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:00:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19428 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 14:57:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([203.96.93.112]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991205200646.QYRO1928399.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:06:46 +1300 Message-ID: <384AC429.7402@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 08:59:37 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF GE maize Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2585 ubject: FW: GM Maize: toxins migrate into soil Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 08:47:56 -0800 From: "Lon J. Rombough" ---------- From: "Keith Woolley" To: "Organic List" Subject: GM Maize: toxins migrate into soil Date: Sat, Dec 4, 1999, 8:37 AM New Scientist [4 December, p 7; and Nature vol.402, p 480] reports research at New York University showing BT Toxins from GM Maize in soil near plants. This could indicate widespread effects on soil ecology and beneficial soil-borne organisms, in addition to the current concerns about probable effects on airborne insects. Keith [West Cumbria UK] From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 5 16:03:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09276 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:03:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23899; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:59:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23457 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:54:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.74] (pm3shep3-163-113.intrepid.net [209.190.163.113]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02593 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:58:13 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:00:31 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: From MILO CLARK: Deja vu all over again another time yet Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2586 >From: Milogic@aol.com > >SEATTLE 1999, WTO meeting. Commentary and a report from the scene > >After prior experiences, one of the more intelligent things I did in 1968 >was to get out of Chicago during the Democratic National Convention of that >year -- which featured a police riot in the neighborhood I was then living >in. > >In preparation for the 1972 Republican Convention in San Diego, police sweeps >kidnapped over 700 people that we were able to list and dumped them at >various places around the country with strict instructions to stay out of >town during the Convention. Those who stayed were subjected to severe >harrassment, entanglement with various agencies on false charges to keep them >tied up in legalisms, keep the movement lawyers on overload. The stories >involved have never been covered and now lie forgotten for the most part. >Even so, paranoia led the Republicans to move the convention to Miami. They >thought we actually had the stuff to disrupt the Convention. Silly then and >sillier now. Although the paranoia seems to have escalated in Seattle >recently. Please see if you can stay focused long enough to get to the report >from a Medical Doctor in Seattle. > >The range of tactics reviewed in the words of this shocked MD, which follow, >are those central to curriculum of The School of the Americas, an institution >of the United States government, where military and police from all over the >world are trained to hold down dissent, repress indigenous peoples, etc.. > >The USA has been, for the most part, about as fine a country as one could >hope for -- as long as one toed an increasingly narrow line of non-political >thought, and sank back into a dreamstate of consumerism and media delights. > >The emergence of the "Global Economy," which is being set into international >law and practice through the World Trade Organization, is a very perverse >perversion of what most may vaguely understand to be involved with world >trade arrangements. The protocols alleged to deal with "open markets" and >"free trade" are being used also to undercut environmental, ecological, >protections for indigineous peoples and human rights --the details are being >very carefully buried much as the US Congress uses "riders" entirely >unrelated to bills to foster views and put into law practices and policies >quite contrary to your worst fears. > >The sketchy reports, coming mainly through internet communications such as >the following, tend to show that whatever has come down at the WTO meeting in >Seattle appears to be of the nature of prepared agitation and police >violence. Having been the butt of some of these actions, covert and overt, I >am always intrigured by the broad willingness of people involved to carry out >these scenarios. > >And we are reaping the benefits of a "professional" military and inceasingly >isolated and militarized "police" forces at local levels. Look at the >interior of an average police cruiser these days and you see an arsenal of >communictions equipment and a trunk load of very destructive weaponry. > >At each of the international meetings regarding financial and trade matters, >for many years now there have been extremely well organized and highly >disciplined doggedly non-violent protest groups such as TOES (The Other >Economic Summit) which has metamorphed into a larger organization with >international connections. These people learned and applied the lessons of >Chicago and all the other instances of police riots coming from the Vietnam >and Human-Civil Rights efforts. Also very important to understand is that >there are now many orgainzations around the US and around the world who are >sincerely devoted and very skilled in keeping marches, etc., non-viiolent, >controlling the fringe behaviors and dissuading instigators. > >Under J. Edgar Hoover of the FBI and other agencies of "our" government, >during the civil rights and Vietnam days, many successful attempts to >infiltrate allegedly radical organizations and to instigate violence to be >blamed on them came along. The peacekeepers of today are wary of anyone who >seems to have inclinations toward violence or destructive acts. > >With this kind of personal and organizational disclipine, it may be that new >tactics of governmentally sponsored instigation are being implemented in >Seattle. For whatever purposes, the increasing domination of media of all >kinds by a shrinking few individuals controlling corporations feeds into the >process through simply disinforming the people not present. > >Seattle may also be the US version of Tianamen Square in Beijing (does >anybody remember that occasion?). After all, the Peoples' Republic of China >has learned much from Western political process and taught much to our >current generation of non-leaders. > >So, dream on, consume well and make sure you stay apolitical. End of >commentary from the non-tourist rainforest of Hawaii island. > >And I will sign my name openly (which with ECHELON operative may be a >dnagerous act): > >Milo Clark >Pahoa HI USA > >---------------------------------------------------- > > >Interview with Seattle MD: >"This is the beginning of a police state" (posted on >www.emperors-clothes.com at 1 am 12-4-99) > > My name is Richard DeAndrea. I'm a medical doctor. What I saw up here >was martial law. This turned into a police state. Everything you have seen >on >television regarding local news broadcasts including national public radio >was a blackout. The police were using concussion grenades. They were shooting >tear gas canisters directly at protesters' faces. They were using so-called >rubber bullets. These are actually hard plastic. Some of the damage I saw: >These plastic bullets took off part of one person's jaw, smashed teeth in >other people's mouths. I saw >the police arrest people who had their hands up in the air screaming "we are >peacefully protesting". The amount of looting that took place was so minimal >I don't even know where they got the footage from. I am saying this beyond a >shadow of a doubt. This is a definite sign that America is heading towards a >police state unless people start standing up for their rights as individuals. >I am actually shocked and >ashamed. I am ashamed of the police force, I am ashamed of the mayor I am >ashamed of Bill Clinton. I am ashamed of the whole thing. > >Jared: These rubber bullets - what are they? > >Dr. DeAndrea: They are made of polyester type material. They are like a hard >plastic toy. The idea is to hit your body, do damage, not actually penetrate. >But I >did see penetration wounds, I did see people bleeding. I did see teeth loss, >I did see broken bones. There were children present, there were families >present, they were >firing upon families, mothers, grandmothers,. They were just firing at them. >They came out in full police force. They brought out swat teams, they had the >national guard up here, there was CIA surrounding the delegates' buildings. >It was very >obvious that there was an institutional control that had no regard of human >rights whatever. > >In addition we have video footage of protesters being taken away as well as >human rights being violated. Prisoners were taken and they were tortured. >There is a case, I believe his name is Holm, Keith Holm. He was tortured >because he would not give his name. They handcuffed, laid him on the floor, >they smashed his face against the concrete, they grabbed his hair, they >ripped out a lock of hair. and then placed pencils between his fingers and >pressed on them until he would give his name. >He refused. They were also banging his head against metal objects. He was >actually the first protester released because the Internal Affairs came in >to do an >investigation and they wanted him gone because he would be able to give >testimony. > >We're treating people in a studio loft downtown. I just treated an ear wound. >People have been treated for concussion injuries. There have been people who >have been treated for plastic bullet wounds. Lots of tear gas injuries, lots >of damage to cornea, lots of damage to the eyes and skins. They were using a >pepper spray, a tear gas >and they were also using some sort of nerve gas. We had reports of many >demonstrators winding up with seizures the next day. It causes muscles to >clamp up, muscle contraction, seizures. > >They have done several illegal things regarding these people in jail. They >have been telling them that they would not be let out, not have their bail >set if they didn't give their names. Its their legal right not to give their >name. They don't have to speak at all. Attorneys came up and said we are >representing these people. The police called the attorneys liars. At this >point they have still refused to let any of them see their clients. There are >close to 600 people who were arrested and they have been holding them for two >days on charges that are mostly misdemeanors, such as refusal to disperse. A >lot of people in there have not gotten medical attention either. I have >gotten calls from young ladies in there who have had all sorts of emotional >problems as well as physical problems. They have called me for medical >attention from inside the jail. There are people still sitting in there who >have not even Been >processed. > >today there were fewer attacks by police, but they did arrest more people. >And there was no violence today by the marchers and all through the day >yesterday it was the same. What you are seeing on television about looting >and anarchistic protesters - there's a straight-out blackout and They are >basically pushing that [line]. There >is not much damage to property here. There are not many windows that have >been damaged or stores that have been looted. Those are extremely rare cases. > >I used to believe newspapers were telling the truth. But now I am no longer >behind that. This is the beginning of a police state. You can quote me on >that. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 5 16:17:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09421 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24821; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:13:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24742 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:12:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from xtra.co.nz ([210.55.80.84]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991205212225.RPIS1928399.mta1-rme@xtra.co.nz> for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:22:25 +1300 Message-ID: <384AD3C4.4B630BB0@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 10:06:12 +1300 From: eaccess Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: eaccess X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNow Subject: BD and Economic Sphere Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2587 Dear List Washington Times, December 6th 1993. from an interview with Sir James Goldsmith . He warned that GATT will mean social upheaval and political instability bringing far worse global consequences than the Bolshevik Revolution, in part - his remarks "Global free trade will force the rich countries to subsidise the rich in the poor countries. What GATT means is that our national wealth, accumulated over centuries, will be transferred from a developed country like Britain....to developing countries like China, now building its first oceangoing navy in 500 years."....... "It is quite amazing that GATT is sowing the seeds for global social upheaval and that it is not even the subject of debate in America... If the masses understood the truth about GATT, there would be blood in the streets of many capitals. A healthy economy has to produce a large part of its own needs. It cannot simply import what it needs and use its labor force to provide services for other countries" "We have to rethink from top to bottom why we have elevated global free trade to the status of Sacred cow or moral dogma. It is a fatally flawed concept that will impoverish and destabilise the industrialised world while cruelly ravaging the Third World" Goldsmith elaborated further in his book "The Trap" in which he blasts the free trade dogma and highlighted the effects it will have on nations, it is extensively referenced with sections on Agriculture and nuclear energy. (1) Prophetic words indeed! six years later people are at last waking up and the failure of the WTO Talks in Seattle must be seen as a victory for the protesters. It's only a pity that the recent APEC conference was not held there too, instead of in a country which has raised apathy to an art form. Yes - Bill Clinton was there too, doing the job he was trained to do (Rhodes Scholar from Oxford University) - just who is he representing? (2) Rudolf Steiner gave his solutions for the demands for social reconstruction in several lectures. the Social Future (3) The Threefold Social Order (4), Awakening to Community (5), and World Economy (6) to name some. All these lectures were given more than seventy years ago, but perhaps the time has come to look closer at some of his ideas. Steiner Speaking on September 23rd 1921 - of the forthcoming "Washington Conference" - a disarmament conference - says: .....: discussions will take place there about matters that were summed up by General Smuts, England's Minister of South Africa, with, I would say, an instinctive genius. The evolution of modern humanity, he said, is characterised by the fact that the starting point for cultural interests, which has hitherto been in the regions bordering the North Sea and the Atlantic Ocean, is now moving to the Pacific. The culture of the regions situated around the North Sea has gradually spread throughout the west and will become a world culture. The center of gravity of this world culture will be transferred from the North sea to the Pacific. Humanity stands face to face with this change. People still talk, however, in such a way that their speech emerges out of the old, crude concepts, and nothing essential is reached - although it must be reached if we are really to move forward. The signs of the times stand with menacing significance before us, and they say to us: until now only a limited trust has been needed between human beings, who in fact were all secretly afraid of one another. This fear was masked under all sorts of other feelings. Now, however we need an attitude of soul that will be able to embrace a world culture. We need a trust that will be able to bring to balance the contrasts of East and West. Here a significant perspective opens up, which we need. People of today believe that economic problems can be handled quite on their own account - the future position of Japan in the Pacific, or how to provide all the trading peoples of the earth with free access to the Chinese market, and so on. These problems, however, will not be settled at any conference until people become aware that all economic activities and relations presuppose the trust of one human being in another. In the future this trust can only be attained in a spiritual way. Outer culture will be in need of spiritual deepening........" (7) So what is this spiritual way in which trust enters the economic sphere? Steiner envisaged the future "Threefold Social Order" as a reflection of the way the Spiritual worlds worked into man The old call of Liberty, Fraternity and Equality reflected in what he called the spheres of Culture, Economics and Rights. The Cultural Domain: - The realm of individual freedom - Liberty Freedom of thought receives Imaginations into Man's Etheric body from the Angelic supersensible world. The Rights Domain: - Realm of individual Nations founded on the rule of Law. - Equality - Communion of feeling receives Inspirations into Man's Astral body from the Archangelic supersensible world. The Economic Domain:- Realm of free Associations founded on Brotherhood - Fraternity Independence of will receives Intuitions into Man's Ego from the supersensible world of the Archai.(8) The Will of Man, works via his Moral Impulses into the world of Intuition - i.e. Upper Devachan or the Higher Spiritual World. This Moral Impulse required in the Economic Domain works via the Warmth of his blood which carries his Ego. (9) but - as Sir James Goldsmith pointed out, the net effect of unrestricted trade (without a moral agenda) is that the Rich in the Poor Countries get richer, and the Poor in the Rich Countries get poorer. Prosperity, in general, is related to the degree in which the rule of law is upheld in a country, ie. the degree of corruption. (The less corruption, the more prosperity) However the trading problem with the Third World is not Production (Economic Sphere) but Corruption (Rights Sphere) The Rich in the Poor Countries having in general no regard for anybody but themselves (10) and the Transnational Companies together with them (11) quite simply have no Moral Agenda. Profiteering, instead of production geared to consumption. This is the problem as I see it. The solution? " Consumption after all is the transnationals source of income, The key to a corporation's success in the feudal order is not its ability to produce (however low the cost) but its ability to sell. In other words, the only realistic counterweight to economic feudalism is an agreement on common standards among a group of national areas sufficiently large to control the patterns of consumption" (12) Rudolf Steiner called this - "co-operative associations" - "When the community is in control of the means of production - the evils will cease" In the Economic Sphere of Biodynamic Agriculture, Community Supported Agricultural Initiatives are a very healthy sign of what can be achieved. Profiteering or Morality? the basic question of the Economic Sphere to which Biodynamics belongs Just a few thoughts. JT 1. The Trap - Sir James Goldsmith - 1993,1994. ISBN 0-7867-0185 - 4 2. In the Name of the New World Order - Ammon Reuveni - 1997 Pub. Temple Lodge. Ch.2. ISBN 0 - 904693 81 3 3. The Social Future- Rudolf Steiner - six lectures October 24 - 30 1919. Anthroposophic Press 1972. 4. The Threefold Social Order - previously published as The Threefold Commonwealth Rudolf Steiner - Anthroposophic Press 1966. 5. Awakening to Community - Rudolf Steiner - 10 lectures - Jan 23 to March 4 - 1923. Anthroposophic Press 1974. 6. World Economy - Rudolf Steiner -14 Lectures - Dornach - 24th July to 6th August 1922. Anthroposophic press . 7. Rudolf Steiner - 23rd September 1921 - Lecture 1, Cosmosophy Vol. 1. ISBN 0 - 88010 - 111-3 Anthroposophic press. 8. Rudolf Steiner - 23rd March 1919 - The Time Sequence and the Spiritual Foundation of Threeefolding. - Mercury Press. 1998 - ISBN 0 - 929979 - 70 - 2 9. Rudolf Steiner - 4th November 1911 - "Jesu Ben Pandira" 10. Asian Eclipse - Michael Backman 1999. ISBN 047 - 1835307 (The dark side of Business in Asia) 11. Profit over People - Noam Chomsky - 1999 - ISBN 1-888363 82 7 12. The Doubters Companion - John Ralston Saul - 1994. ISBN 0-14-023707 - ( Transnational Corporations p. 290) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 5 16:44:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09624 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:44:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA26846; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:41:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA26601 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:38:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.74] (pm3shep4-163-161.intrepid.net [209.190.163.161]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA08399 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:41:28 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:42:45 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: WTO Reports Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2588 This may have been mentioned previously, but you can find a pretty good collection of eye-witness accounts of the Seattle Police Riot at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Keep/4885/wto/seattle.htm This includes heartwrenching photographs of the police use of chemicals against the protesters, as well as oral histories, etc. -Allan bdnow@envirolink.org From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 5 18:26:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10648 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:26:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03868; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03601 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:18:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-164-223-84.s84.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.223.84] helo=erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11ukxg-0001Xo-00; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:21:01 -0500 Message-ID: <384AF3A7.9427E751@erols.com> Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:22:15 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Comfrey tea; dangerous? References: <0.63569a4e.257b50cf@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2589 Comfrey is perfectly safe if not used in exceptionally extreme doses - like the amounts of products one would use on a rat if doing testing for carcinogenic substances. There was a great discussion about six mos. ago on the Organic Gardening listserve about this - R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 5 19:52:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA11253 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:52:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10057; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:48:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.157]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09597 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:43:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from bellatlantic.net (client-151-198-141-161.bellatlantic.net [151.198.141.161]) by smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA02282 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:52:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <384B03E6.3BF32F77@bellatlantic.net> Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 19:31:35 -0500 From: Judson Chambers Organization: TransArchFormations, Intl. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: FW:[Taking-control] COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN SEATTLE References: <382001226.944322091282.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2590 Hi Listmembers, After reading the below quote I am reminded of a section in this cited ebook ("FLUORIDE'S EFFECT ON YOUR BRAIN - UNBELIEVABLE YET TRUE." SOLID PROOF OF FLUORIDE'S MENTAL EFFECTS. BY JOHN N. MAGUIRE III) named "THE FLUORIDE MAFIA" which cites complicity of "GOVERNMENT" involvement in the pollution of "OUR" water supply with the poison fluoride. Its enforcement of this poison and other activities are reminescent of what Pam has stated below and is in concert with the mode of behaviour that "Government" has displayed at its inception, ie coercive violative and unjust action in the "name of the people". We have somehow been convinced that this mode of social organization is our best form of social organization while we shaped and reshaped its (ie Government's) appearance. It seems that even R. Steiner and his three-fold concept was another attempt at managing this unjust and coercivist body, but I have'nt been convinced. Can anyone ever persuade me of the specific anti-coercivist attentions possibly inherent in the three-fold government concept of R. Steiner? My positon of the need for non-coercivist social organization rests upon our/the need for spiritual development of each individual in order to establish a preponderance of just behaviour enforcing and encouraging its increase against its antipode. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the antipode is markedly and on the worldwide stage is represented by groups of people of whom many people have been convinced to refer to as "Government". The main point I have about this coercivist activity is that the energy of which it requires for its execution is not subordinated by a legitimate instrument of controlling ownership. Meaning that we ("the people") have unwittingly have allowed our own subordination to a very evil, even satanic, force dominating at one time in a "tolerant" manner to "our" behaviour, but at other times is "intolerant" of "our" behaviour. The point is that this energy MUST be subordinated under our several and many, even overlapping but legitimate exercisers of OWNERSHIP. But not to an unOWNed organization of militarily armed "enforcers". I do not seek to elaborate upon how this ought to be done at this time, but to state that with a growing and developing spiritual instrument and body, MAN can organize himself with HIS land (thankyou BD'ers, anthroposophists and others) to form an articulate ownership arrangement in concert with the development of the Earth upon which "we" must not desert (as "our" Government and its apologist have deserted already). Judson Pam DeTray wrote: > quote: (partially snipped) > > Tuesday night the police gassed all of downtown. This was going on from 3 > PM, till 6 PM.. Gas everywhere. The kids broke a few windows - McD's, > Starbucks - small stuff - burned a few garbage cans. The police were using > these people as extras. It was staged. I believe also the police had their > own people in there, encouraging people to break stuff - if people think I > may be exaggerating, I saw supposed protesters - they were screaming and so > on - and then later, when everything was over, the same people tackled other > protestors and put handcuffs on them. > > At 6pm they issued a State of Emergency. At that point they had pushed the > 100 people outside the city limits, so the police went outside the limits > too, and they started gassing that area too, gassing the neighborhoods where > the regular people live. I am not exaggerating. The police were relentless. > > This was in an area from the city limits for about 10 blocks to the Seattle > Central Community College. If you were alive, the police gassed you. People > coming back from work, kids, women, everyone. People would go out of their > houses to see what was happening because these tear gas guns sound like a > cannon - and they would get gassed. A block away there was a Texaco gas > station - they threw tear gas at gas pumps, believe it or not - they were > like vandals. They gassed a bus. I saw it with my own eyes. A bus. The > driver, the riders, the people just abandoned it . > > I was sitting in a little coffee shop called Rauhaus, [Jim did not spell > this - the spelling may be wrong.] They were shooting "rubber" bullets at > the glass. I picked up a dozen of the things in a few square feet. They were > also shooting this paint that you can only see with a florescent light. They > would paint anyone and everyone and then go hunting them. > > Anyway, because they were gassing everybody, the local people got mad too > and they joined the 100 who had been herded out of the city. So soon there > were 500 including the neighborhood people and all very angry. Naturally. > Because they had been gassed and hit with pepper spray, that stuff does a > number on you. And shot with these damn bullets. Then people set up > barricades at Seattle Central Community College. The cops organized > themselves for about an hour and then moved in and gassed that area. Today > they started mass arrests. That was because Clinton - the Greeks call him > the Planitarchis, Ruler of the World - was coming. Weeping crocodile tears > about how he just LOVES peaceful protest, which of course you'd have to be > two years old to believe he had nothing to do with the police action. This > whole thing, this police attack, this was US foreign policy, not some action > decided by some bureaucrat in Seattle. This was the State Department. They > wanted to discredit the people. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 6 00:42:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA14192 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:42:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA05064; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:36:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA04851 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:33:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d140.infoserve.net [199.175.157.140]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA11133 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 21:38:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000e01bf3fac$60d8a9c0$8c9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF / Fw: GEN11-5 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 21:40:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2591 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Sunday, December 05, 1999 7:32 PM Subject: GEN11-5 >BBC News >Wednesday, 1 December, 1999, > >Council opens GM-detector lab > >The lab is the first of its kind in Scotland > >Edinburgh Council has become the first Scottish local authority to open a >laboratory dedicated to testing for genetically-modified food. > >Scientists will check on products from the capital's cafes, shops and >restaurants to see if they are complying with new rules that say foodstuffs >containing GM products must be labelled. > >The hope is that the £20,000 unit will pay for itself by testing for >private companies and other Scottish councils. > >Taking a hard-line > >The outlets found to be selling unmarked GM products could face a fine of >up to £5,000. > >............ >UK Daily Telegraph > >Sunday 5 December 1999 > > >Church bans GM crop trials on its land > >By Jonathan Petre > >GOVERNMENT trials of genetically modified crops on land owned by the Church >of England have been vetoed by a top-level Church committee. > >The decision, which comes amid continuing controversy over the safety and >morality of GM testing, will be a blow to ministers, who had hoped to lease >some of the Church's 123,000 acres. The Central Science Laboratory, the >main research arm of the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, >applied for permission to use the land at a meeting with Church >Commissioners earlier this year. But The Telegraph has learned that the >Church's influential Ethical Investment Working Group decided last week >that the request should be turned down. > >................ > >SEATTLE/TORONTO, December 2 /CNW/ via NewsEdge Corporation -- A dangerous >Canadian proposal to give the WTO more power over trade in genetically >modified food gained momentum yesterday, but faced opposition and direct >action in France and Mexico. > >Greenpeace genetic engineering campaigner, Michael Khoo said, ``Canada put >forth this misguided proposal at the WTO to undermine the Biosafety >protocol. It is gathering momentum and Canada is at fault.'' The Biosafety >Protocol's mandate gives primary consideration to the environment, whereas >the WTO's priority is increasing trade. > >``The WTO should not have the power to force feed people untested >genetically modified organisms (GMOs). The Biosafety protocol is the only >place that can address the health and environmental concerns of consumers. >Just as Canadians are showing concern over GMOs, the WTO is taking away >their power to protect themselves'', said Khoo. > >Canada proposed to establish a Working Group on Biotechnology at the WTO >with the support of the USA and Japan. Yesterday EU negotiators said they >agreed with working group idea. However, five EU countries (UK, France, >Belgium, Italy and Denmark) also released a statement yesterday saying that >the Biosafety Protocol ``would be undermined by the establishment of a WTO >working group.'' > >For further information: Michael Khoo, Greenpeace: 416-597-8408, cell: >416-569-8408; Mika Railo, Greenpeace international: 011-31-20-5249-548; >French interviews & information contact: Johanne Fillion: >514-933-0021x3003; Nadine Bachand: 514-933-0021x3010/ > >........ > >Thanks to "NLP Wessex" for posting the following >comments re > US GM crop acreage not justified by its agronomic performance >Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 > >There has been a huge rush to grow transgenic (GM) varieties in the US. But >is this rush based on rational and informed economic decision making by US >farmers? Some US agronomists are not happy that it is, as these comments >from Dr Will McCarty, University of Missippi Extension Service Cotton >specialist, demonstrate (October 5, 1999 Agronomy Notes): > >"Before you plant transgenic varieties, be sure you need the value-added >trait. Also evaluate the yields of varieties with the transgenic trait you >desire, and study the risk and benefit ratio, if any. In other words, if >you feel you need to plant Bt and the variety does not or has not yielded >well for you or in your area, consider the risk of not using it and the >potential cost of additional insect control versus potential yield loss to >planting it. The same can be said for a transgenic variety for herbicide >tolerance. Before you pay extra for the convenience of using a particular >herbicide over-the-top, be sure the variety fits your farm and will yield >well. Also, consider if you really need that particular program. ...... >Plant the bulk of your acreage in proven performers and try limited acreage >of new varieties. Also, transgenic varieties may not perform as well as did >their parents. Just because you have had good experience with a particular >variety does not mean you will have the same results with a transgenic >version. Variety selection is critical." > >After several years and millions of acres of experience with transgenic >crops in the US these comments are particularly interesting as GM Bt cotton >in particular is claimed by its proponents to be highly advantageous to >farmers. > >There is growing evidence of differences of opinion between US agronomists >as to the effective agronomic performance of GM crops . If these experts >can't agree amongst themselves then it is clear that the claimed benefits >for this technology are not definitive and have been grossly exaggerated by >the biotechnology industry and its supporters. > >Given the risks to human health and the environment posed by this >technology (see http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/gmoquote.htm >) what can be the justification for its introduction if the benefits are >non-existent, or marginal at best? > >The following additional advice to Mississippi growers by Dr McCarty's soya >bean specialist colleague , Dr Alan Blaine, is a current reflection on how >this situation is continuing (Agronomy Notes November 5, 1999): > >"Avoid getting caught up in selecting varieties because they are new. I am >not discouraging you from trying new varieties, just reminding you to plant >the bulk of your acreage in proven performers; don't experiment on a large >scale. If a new variety is that promising, it will be around next year and >furthermore, there will not be enough seed available the first year to meet >everyone's needs. > >The vast majority of the problems soybean growers have encountered over the >last couple of years have been on relatively new varieties. Instead of >taking 6 to 8 generations for a variety to reach the market, we are seeing >varieties blown up and put on the market in probably 3 to 4 generations. It >is this trend that has caused many of you to experience poor performance >from many new varieties. > >Steer away from planting a variety just because someone tells you how good >it is. Prove it to yourself and this should be done with no less than 2 >years of yield test data. Variations in growing conditions cause varietal >differences to be expressed, and 1999 really exposed some potential >weakness in several varieties." > >......... > > >New Scientist 4 Nov 99 >Extinction point > >It only takes one fish with the Trojan gene to invade a population and wipe >it out > > A SINGLE genetically modified fish could turn Darwinian evolution upside >down and wipe out local populations of the species if released into the >wild, biologists warn. They add that other organisms could face the same >risk from transgenic relatives. > >William Muir and Richard Howard of Purdue University in West Lafayette, >Indiana, made the discovery while modelling ecological risks associated >with genetically modified organisms (GMOs). > > They have dubbed their idea the "Trojan gene" hypothesis. "This resembles >the Trojan horse," says Muir. >"It gets into the population looking like something good and it ends up >destroying the population.". > > The researchers studied fish carrying the human growth hormone gene hGH, >which increases growth rate and final size. Biologists in the US and >Britain are experimenting with salmon engineered in a similar way, >although no one has yet begun commercial production. > > > Muir and Howard included hGH in embryos of a fish called the Japanese >medaka (Oryzias latipes), a common aquarium fish that is widely used in >research. They found that modified individuals became sexually mature >faster than normal fish and produced more eggs. > > Other experiments using non-modified fish also showed that larger males >attracted four times as many mates as their smaller rivals. This effect is >also known in salmon. Muir predicts that bigger, engineered fish would >enjoy the same advantages. So the hGH gene would quickly spread through a >fish population. > > But Muir and Howard also found that only two-thirds of engineered medaka >survived to reproductive age compared with wild medakas. So the spread of >the growth hormone gene could make populations dwindle and eventually >become extinct > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 6 05:54:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA16231 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 05:54:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA17479; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 05:50:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA17248 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 05:45:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.146]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991206105324.RXLM1752249.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:53:24 +1300 Message-ID: <384B947A.72FA@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 23:48:26 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: The Apes and BD practise Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2592 Subject: The apes How It Happens Start with a cage containing five apes. In the cage, hang a banana on a string and put stairs under it. Before long, an ape will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the apes with cold water. After a while, another ape makes an attempt with the same result - all the apes are sprayed with cold water. This continues through several more attempts. Pretty soon, when another ape tries to climb the stairs, the other apes all try to prevent it. Now, turn off the cold water. Remove one ape from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new ape sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his horror, all of the other apes attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted. Next, remove another of the original five apes and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm. Again, replace a third original ape with a new one. The new one makes it to the stairs and is attacked as well. Two of the four apes that beat him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs, or why they are participating in the beating of the newest ape. After replacing the fourth and fifth original apes, all the apes, which have been sprayed with cold water, have been replaced. Nevertheless, no ape ever again approaches the stairs. Why not? Because that's the way they've always done it and that's the way it's always been around here. And that's how company policy begins.... <<< end of forwarded post >>> GA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 6 06:57:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA16534 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 06:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA20568; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 06:53:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA20512 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 06:51:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.74] (pm3shep4-163-194.intrepid.net [209.190.163.194]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA19466 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 06:55:16 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 06:50:19 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF FWD (for what it's worth) APFN, Seattle, & propaganda... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2593 >From: "Brian Hill" >To: BIOREGIONAL >Subject: Fw: cj#1028,rn-> (fwd) APFN, Seattle, & propaganda... >Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 01:31:38 -0800 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 >Reply-To: bioregional@csf.colorado.edu >Sender: owner-bioregional@csf.colorado.edu > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cyberjournal >To: cj@cyberjournal.org ; >renaissance-network@cyberjournal.org > >Cc: APFN@lv.rmci.net >Date: Saturday, December 04, 1999 21:41 >Subject: cj#1028,rn-> (fwd) APFN, Seattle, & propaganda... > > >> >>Dear cj, >> >>I want to share this for various reasons. For one thing, it >>includes some interesting testimony from Seattle. For >>another thing, it is from a list called the "American >>Patriot Friends Network". I subscribed to that list for the >>purpose of tracking 'right-wing' thinking. I also subscribe >>to a few others for the same reason. >> >>The _other right-wing lists, in my opinion, are pure >>propaganda. The viewpoints are always narrow and always >>divisive. >> >>Keeneth Vardon, who runs the APFN list, is different. I >>still disagree with most of what he posts - and I'm sure >>he'd disagree with most of what I post - but I acknowledge >>him as being sincere in what he's doing. >> >>As a matter of fact, I've noticed recently more and more >>things on APFN that I actually agree with. I've said many >>times that divisiveness in the grass-roots will need to be >>overcome before elite rule can be overcome. Therefore I >>find this kind of think encouraging. >> >>regards, >>rkm >> >>===================================================================== >======= >>Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 12:42:33 -0800 >>From: APFN >>Organization: APFN http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb77532 >>To: American Patriot Friends Network , >> APFN ONELIST >>Subject: All is not as it seems! A letter from Seattle >>X-Priority: 2 (High) >> >>All is not as it seems! A letter from Seattle >> >>This is a fax (another one) that I sent to the Mayor of Seattle. >> >>Top 10 Reasons to Oppose the World Trade Organization >> >>Via APFNetwork apfn@lv.rmci.net >>http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb77532 >> >>Subject: Fwd: Fw: a letter from Seattle >>Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:31:10 PST >>From: "cliff kadmon" > >>To Whom It May Concern: >> >>I am a young man living in the Seattle area. I am not going >>to reveal my name, for reasons that will be obvious. >> >>Several weeks ago I was approached by the representative of a >>major company. I was offered a lucrative, temporary job as a >>demonstrator as part of a 'media event' that the company rep >>said she was involved in planning. I was offered $35 an hour, >>plus bonuses and meals, for a job that would last a week or so. >>Being a rather poor college student, I jumped at the offer. I >>was assured it was all legal. I signed a strict non-disclosure >>agreement. And I was given a few days paid training. >> >>All of this was before I had heard about the upcoming World >>Trade Organization meeting. In fact, I didn't really know what >>the WTO was. >> >>In the past few days I have carried protest signs and chanted >>slogans for various causes - whales, farmers, human rights, >>rainforests; I have blocked traffic, been shoved, kicked, >>tear-gassed, arrested (bail promptly paid), worn a panda bear >>costume, and been on tv; I've been well-fed on steaks and shrimp >>and pizza; had a hell of a lot of fun; made some good cash money >>and recieved some merchandise bonuses like vitamins and Pepsi >>stuff; - and become totally disillusioned with our political >>system. >> >>The company that hired me is Archer Daniels Midland, but Pepsi >>was somehow involved, too (and no doubt some others). >> >>The demonstrations this past week in Seattle are contrived and >>manufactured. I'm sure that many of the people out there are >>sincerely trying to further their cause, but many more are just >>nuts getting caught up in the moment, and some are paid agitators >>(like me and about another 100 or so that I know of). I'm not out >>there anymore, though, I took my cash last night and left, went >>back to school. >> >>Here's the thing: Have you noticed how the aims of many of the >>protestors for the most part actually go along with the aims of >>the WTO and the multi-national corporations? The 'event' is being >>portrayed as a demonstration against capitalism, but actually is >>about stricter environment and labor controls, and stricter >>international standards in many areas. This is the agenda of the >>WTO and the New World Order. It is all part of the one-world >>government thing. It is all about more CONTROL over people. When >>I saw this, I walked away. >> >>All of this should be obvious to thoughtful people, but the media >>are drooling all over each other covering this story as if it were >>some kind of spontaneous happening, instead of the staged drama it >>really is. People think the New World Order is just something some >>crazy person on the internet thought up, but I first heard it from >>the mouth of President George Bush years ago. The New World Order >>is alive and growing. >> >>I just wanted to put the word out on this to counter the prevailing >>spin. All is not as it seems! >> >>Just Some Guy - a NWO shill >>==================================================================== >>From: Les Lemke > >>This is a fax (another one) that I sent to the Mayor of Seattle. >> >>This letter is going to as many Congressman as I can send it >>to. What happened and CONTINUES TO HAPPEN in Seattle is >>totally UNacceptable. >> >>If you saw what I saw and wish to alter this letter and send it as >>your own letter to that scumbag in Seattle, or to your own >Congressmen, >>go for it. What I say below I did in fact see via various media >>sources. This is nothing but NAZI GESTAPO ACTION >>AGAINST THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY! >>---------------------------- >>December 2, 1999 >> >>Lester Lemke >>P.O. Box 1524 >>Coos Bay, Oregon 97420-0332 >> >>Mayor Paul Schell of >>Seattle Washington >>600 Fourth Avenue >>Seattle WA 98104 >>Tel/206-684-4000 >>Fax/206-684-5360 >> >> >>Mr. Paul Schell - or should I call you Comrad Schell? >> >>Over the last few days and nights I have witnessed in Seattle >>open and blatant abuse of power as well as complete and utter >>brutality by law enforcement against citizens of this country >>who have been protesting the totally UnConstitutional and rogue >>organization otherwise known as the WTO. >> >>I have witnessed a woman, who while kneeling down on the >>sidewalk, had a riot outfitted law enforcement officer >>(aka: JACKBOOTED THUG *CRIMINAL*) run up from behind her >>and kick her in middle of her back with his boot. Then that same >>CRIMINAL hit her with his baton twice. He then grabbed her by the >>hair and raised her to her feet by her hair. >> >>I have witnessed a protester who was grabbed by these legalized >street >>THUGS hauled behind police lines and then beaten with batons EXACTLY >>like they did Rodney King down in Los Angeles. >> >>I have witnessed two individuals who were waiting for a traffic >>light to change who were suddenly attacked by three thugs. These >>*legal* THUGS beat the crap out of these two kids until their >>faces were all bloodied. These same THUGS of yours also kicked these >>two kids several times when they were down on the sidewalk. These >>SAME THUGS OF YOURS were police officers...undercover police >officers >>who only announced their status as police officers when some OTHER >riot >>police THUGS came over to see what was going on. >> >>I have seen a police THUG armed with rubber bullet loaded shotgun >>aim that shotgun and then fire that weapon at POINT BLANK range - >>three feet at the most! - at a woman's face while the woman was >>seated on the ground protesting the WTO meeting. >> >>I have witnessed police THUGS shooting some kind of gas or pepper >>spray into the face of a protester who was doing nothing but >>standing there facing police. >> >>I have witnessed police THUGS firing gas canisters and concussion >>grenades at people who were PEACEABLY ASSEMBLED protesting the >>WTO in Seattle. >> >>Today I found out that you have created a "No Protest Zone" around >>the WTO meeting place....an area that extends out four or more >>blocks in distance around the site of the WTO meeting. I have read >>reports of citizens of this country being arrested for entering >>these "No Protest Zone" areas to protest the WTO. >> >>Tell me, Mr. Mayor, which documents governing the operation of a >>country are you reading from? The United States Constitution and >>Bill of Rights or the Communist Manifesto? Personally, from what >>I've seen thus far you are following the behavorial pattern of a >>Hitler, Stalin or Mao Se Tung-wannabe - CLEARLY not the path taken >>by our founding fathers of this country. >> >>I don't know what kind of country you think this is, Mr.Schell, >>but I will tell you this. I'm 52 years of age and I'll be damned >>if I will sit at home and do nothing while YOU remain silent and >>while YOUR "legal" STREET DOGS attack innocent citizens of this >>country who are USING, or TRYING to use, their Constitutional >>Rights and freedom of assembly to protest a bogus organization >>called the WTO. >> >>By your silence and by your failure to raise your voice to put a >>STOP to the police abuse of power and police brutality against >>citizens of this country who went to your city to protest the >>bogus organization called WTO you have made yourself complicit in >>THEIR crimes against The People of this nation. >> >>I don't know what good it will do, but I will tell you this: a >>copy of this letter to you is going to be mailed to EVERY House >>member and Senate member in Washington D.C. - as well as to >>every council member on the Seattle City Council - in the hope >>that what I saw take place and what I am reporting helps to put >>you behind bars where you DAMN well belong! >> >>I strongly urge you to resign from office before your disgrace >>grows any further. >> >>One last thing, Mr. Mayor. It will be a very cold day in hell >>before I **EVER** visit and stay in your city again. >> >>In addition I plan to urge everyone I know to BOYCOTT your city >>of Seattle AND to boycott ****ALL**** Washington State products. >>It would appear that your governor is from the same political >>school as you for he too has not said a word against the police >>atrocities in Seattle. >> >> >>With Contempt, >> >>Lester Lemke >> >>cc: >> >>Seattle City Council: >> >>Councilmember Martha Choe >>martha.choe@ci.seattle.wa.us >> >>Councilmember Richard Conlin >>richard.conlin@ci.seattle.wa.us >> >>Councilmember Sue Donaldson >>mailto:sue.donaldson@ci.seattle.wa.us >> >>Councilmember Jan Drago >>jan.drago@ci.seattle.wa.us >> >>Councilmember Nick Licata >>nick.licata@ci.seattle.wa.us >> >>Councilmember Richard McIver >>richard.mciver@ci.seattle.wa.us >> >>Councilmember Margaret Pageler >>richard.mciver@ci.seattle.wa.ust >> >>Councilmember Tina Podlodowski >>tina.podlodowski@ci.seattle.wa.us >> >>Councilmember Peter Steinbrueck >>peter.steinbrueck@ci.seattle.wa.us >>============================================================ >>LETTER - Circulation@Vigo-Examiner.com >> >> Top 10 Reasons to Oppose the World Trade Organization >> >>A friend in Columbus, OH sent this to me. >> >> Don Cook >> Vigo County, Indiana >> >>Take a second to read this, then think about it......... >> >>I'm not usually one to be a radical, tree-hugging, liberal, >>protestor-type, but the text of this flyer someone gave me >>on the street today was disturbing, take a minute to read >>it: >> >>(If this stuff bothers you go to: >>http://www.globalexchange.org/economy/rulemakers/wto.html ) >> >> >> Top 10 Reasons to Oppose the World Trade Organization >> >>1. The WTO only serves the interests of multinational >>corporations >> >>The WTO is not a democratic institution, and yet its >>policies impact all aspects of society and the planet. The >>WTO rules are written by and for corporations with inside >>access to the negotiations. For example, the US Trade >>Representative relies on its 17 "Industry Sector Advisory >>Committees" to provide input into trade negotiations. >>Citizen input by consumer, environmental, human rights and >>labor organizations is consistently ignored. Even requests >>for information are denied, and the proceedingsare held in >>secret >> >>2. The WTO is a stacked court >> >>The WTO's dispute panels, which rule on whether domestic >>laws are "barriers to trade" and should therefore be >>abolished,consist of three trade bureaucrats who are not >>screened for conflict of interests. For example, in the >>tuna/dolphin case that Mexico filed against the US, which >>forced the US to repeal its law that barred tuna from being >>caught by mile-long nets that kill hundreds of thousands of >>dolphins each year, one of the judges was from a corporate >>front group that lobbied on behalf ofthe Mexican government >>for NAFTA. >> >>3. The WTO tramples over labor and human rights >> >>The WTO has refused to address the impacts of free trade on >>labor rights, despite that fact that countries that actively >>enforce labor rights are disadvantaged by countries that >>consistently violate international labor conventions. Many >>developing countries, such as Mexico, contend that labor >>standards constitute a "barrier to free trade" for countries >>whose competitive advantage in the global economy is cheap >>labor. Potential solutions to labor and human rights abuses >>are blocked by the WTO, which has ruled that it is: 1) >>illegal for a government to ban a product based on the way >>it is produced (i.e. with child labor); and 2) governments >>cannot take into account the behavior of companies that do >>business with vicious dictatorships such as Burma. >> >> >>4. The WTO is destroying the environment >> >>The WTO is being used by corporations to dismantle hard-won >>environmental protections, who call them barriers to trade. >>In 1993 the very first WTO panel ruled that a regulation of >>the US Clean Air Act, which required both domestic and >>foreign producers alike to produce cleaner gasoline, was >>illegal. Recently, the WTO declared illegal a provision of >>the Endangered Species Act that requires shrimp sold in the >>US to be caught with an inexpensive device that allows >>endangered sea turtles to escape. The WTO is currently >>negotiating an agreement that would eliminate tariffs on >>wood products, which would increase the demand for timber >>and escalate deforestation. >> >> >>5. The WTO is killing people >> >>The WTO's fierce defense of intellectual property rights- >>patents, copyrights and trademarks-comes at the expense of >>health and human lives. The organization's support for >>pharmaceutical companies against governments seeking to >>protect their people's health has had serious implications >>for places like sub-Saharan Africa, where 80 percent of the >>world's new AIDS cases are found. The US government, on >>behalf of US drug companies, is trying to block developing >>countries' access to less expensive, generic, life-saving >>drugs. For example, the South African government has been >>threatened with a WTO challenge over proposed national >>health laws that would encourage the use of generic drugs, >>ban the practice of manufacturers offering economic >>incentives to doctors who prescribe their products and >>institute "parallel importing," which allows companies to >>import drugs from other countries where the drugs are >>cheaper. >> >> >>6. The US adoption of the WTO was undemocratic >> >>The WTO was established out of the Uruguay Round of the >>General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) negotiations. >>On December 1, 1994, Congress approved GATT under Fast Track >>during a lame duck session of Congress. Fast Track limits >>public debate by not allowing amendments. The approval of >>the WTO required entire sections of US laws to be rewritten >>to conform with the WTO rules, similar to the way that >>treaties often redefine how the US will interact with other >>states. Had the agreement been voted on as a treaty, >>requiring a two-thirds majority in the Senate, it would have >>been defeated. >> >> >>7. The WTO undermines local development and penalizes poor >>countries >> >>The WTO's "most favored nation" provisions requires all WTO >>member countries to treat each other equally and to treat >>all corporations from these countries equally regardless of >>their track record. Local policies aimed at rewarding >>companies who hire local residents, use domestic materials, >>or adopt environmentally sound practices are essentially >>illegal under the WTO. Under the WTO rules, developing >>countries are prohibited from following the same polices >>that developed countries pursued, such as protecting >>nascent, domestic industries until they can be >>internationally competitive. >> >> >>8. The WTO is increasing inequality >> >>Free trade is not working for the majority of the world. >>During the most recent period of rapid growth in global >>trade and investment--1960 to 1998--inequality worsened both >>internationally and within countries. The UN Development >>Program reports that the richest 20 percent of the world's >>population consume 86 percent of the world's resources while >>the poorest 80 percent consume just 14 percent. WTO rules >>have hastened these trends by opening up countries to >>foreign investment and thereby making it easier for >>production to go where the labor is cheapest and most easily >>exploited and environmental costs are low. This pulls down >>wages and environmental standards in developed countries who >>are having to compete globally. >> >> >>9. The WTO undermines national sovereignty >> >>By creating a supranational court system that has the power >>to economically sanction countries to force them to comply >>with its rulings, the WTO has essentially replaced national >>governments with an unelected, unaccountable corporate- >>backed government. For the past nine years, the European >>Union has banned beef raised with artificial growth >>hormones. The WTO recently ruled that this public health law >>is a barrier to trade and should be abolished. The EU has to >>rollback its ban or pay stiff penalties. Under the WTO, >>governments can no longer act in the public interest. >> >> >>10. The tide is turning against free trade and the WTO! >> >>There is a growing international backlash against the WTO >>and the process of corporate globalization over which it >>presides. Movement-building by coalitions such as People's >>Global Action against the WTO in Europe and the Citizen's >>Trade Campaign in the US are growing fast, as public support >>for corporate-managed free trade dwindles. Recent polls show >>that 58 percent of Americans agree that foreign trade has >>been bad for the US economy, and 81 percent of Americans say >>that Congress should not accept trade agreements that give >>other countries the power to overturn US laws. (Too late!). >>This is why tens of thousands of people from all walks of >>life will converge in Seattle Nov. 29-Dec. 4 to confront the >>World Trade Organization head on at its ministerial meeting. >>Join us! >>============================================================== >>I have created a website with words and pictures from the >>People in Seattle who are here and are seeing firsthand what's >>going on. You will definitely want to see the first image I >>have on this page of a Seattle police officer kicking and >>shooting a man at point blank range with a rubber bullet gun >>for not walking fast enough in the Capitol Hill area. >> >>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Keep/4885/wto/ >> >>-Deuce >>deuce42@uswest.net ICQ#395993 >> >>Kill the WTO [Free Republic] >>http://208.138.42.193/forum/a38458ffd78f8.htm >> >>SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER >>http://www.seattle-pi.com/ >> >>WTO Photo Gallery (click on each picture to enlarge it) >>http://192.251.219.162/wtogalleries/subcategory.asp?SubID=16&DisplayT >ype=ThumbDe >>sc&PicsPerPage=8&x=15&y=5 >> >>------ >> >> >>------------------------- >>Richard K Moore >>Wexford, Irleand >>Citizens for a Democratic Renaissance >>cdr@cyberjournal.org >>http://cyberjournal.org >> >> >> Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful >> committed citizens can change the world, >> indeed it's the only thing that ever has. >> - Margaret Mead >> >>. >> >> >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: >renaissance-network-unsubscribe@cyberjournal.org >>For additional commands, e-mail: >renaissance-network-help@cyberjournal.org >> > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 6 09:36:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18111 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:36:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00585; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:32:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00065 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:27:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (cust13.nrvmax1.tor1.netrover.com [205.209.21.13]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA24978 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:30:43 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-From: villager@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: From: "manfred palmer" To: "bdnow" Subject: Off/ RS 3-fold lecture Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:33:44 -0500 Message-ID: <01bf3ff6$e62ee180$0715d1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF3FCC.FD58D980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2594 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF3FCC.FD58D980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi: Can anyone point me to an online version of the text referred to = below? I have tried the RS e-library archives last week, and have had no = response yet. We need this material for our ongoing community project = considerations.Thank you for any help. ..... manfred palmer English >version of the lecture Steiner gave in Stuttgart from February 12 to = 17th >1921 (GA 330) about "how to work for the impulse of the threefold = social >organism". ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF3FCC.FD58D980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi: Can anyone point me to an online version of the text referred = to=20 below? 
I have tried the RS  e-library archives last week, and have = had no=20 response yet. We need this material for our ongoing community project=20 considerations.Thank you for any help. ..... manfred palmer 
 
English
>version of the lecture Steiner gave in Stuttgart = from=20 February 12 to 17th
>1921 (GA 330) about "how to work for the = impulse=20 of the threefold social
>organism". 
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF3FCC.FD58D980-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 6 13:29:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00924 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25444; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:25:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com [207.46.181.18]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24996 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:21:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 63.23.17.248 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:24:09 -0800 Message-ID: <003801bf4018$113f0a00$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: The Apes and BD practise Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:31:08 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2595 Dear GA, What does this story have to do with biodynamics? Since it is entitled <...and BD practice>.. Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 6 16:48:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14763 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:48:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20205; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:44:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19556 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:39:07 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.0.8f6b4e07 (3933) for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:42:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.8f6b4e07.257d87ab@aol.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:42:03 EST Subject: Re: The Apes and BD practise To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2596 In a message dated 12/6/99 1:30:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, agdoc@email.msn.com writes: << Dear GA, What does this story have to do with biodynamics? Since it is entitled <...and BD practice>.. Andrew >> The story illustrated a point to me - if you have ever talked with conventional ag people about BD you might see a similarity to the apes in the story. "I use 10-10-10 (or Sevin, etc) because Lowes (or Walmart,etc) has it and it's what the sales guy says to use and I have always done it that way". Other interpretations may vary. DanL From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 6 18:56:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16824 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:56:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05370; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:52:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04883 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:47:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.31]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991206235525.WEOC1752249.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:55:25 +1300 Message-ID: <384C4BC5.6F24@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 12:50:29 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: The Apes and BD practise References: <003801bf4018$113f0a00$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2597 agdoc wrote: > > Dear GA, > > What does this story have to do with biodynamics? Since it is entitled > <...and BD practice>.. > > Andrew I do not know about you Andrew, but we here in NZ have all these 'rules' and accepted understandings about BD practise which have been established by individuals ages ago without any serious questioning then or since. The value of this list for me has been to see others around the world do not do it like we do it, and Yahoo. Much of my journey through BD has questioned this NZ norm and I believe much more is needed. We must be open to questioning and challenging the prophets and heros at all times, if BD practise is to stay relevant. Already many aspects of it are seen as C19 peasant culture. To add fanatical dedication to dogma with no comprehension makes us unworthy of any serious consideration. In many cases our good fortune is that BD works in spite of its practioners. cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 6 21:09:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18924 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:09:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18609; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18401 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:03:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (CVA01-16.swva.net [206.99.244.81]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA21236 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:02:30 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:02:30 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19991206223825.39df0c16@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: Off/ RS 3-fold lecture Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2598 At 09:33 AM 12/6/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi: Can anyone point me to an online version of the text referred to below? >I have tried the RS e-library archives last week, and have had no response yet. We need >this material for our ongoing community project considerations.Thank you for any help. ..... >manfred palmer > >English version of the lecture Steiner gave in Stuttgart from February 12 to 17th >1921 (GA 330) about "how to work for the impulse of the threefold social >organism". Manfred, Who gave you this reference? The proper GA number for the lectures you mention is GA 338, but why do you think these are particularly relevant to your community project and what makes you think they have been translated into English yet? Malcolm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 6 21:18:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19019 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:18:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19447; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:14:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.ap.net (mailhost.ap.net [205.134.237.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA19239 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:12:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ap.net (D-26.Portal-01.ap.net [207.44.186.27]) by mailhost.ap.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05939 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:15:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <384C6D78.69E3F707@ap.net> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 18:14:16 -0800 From: David Isaacs Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: At Your Service Companies X-Sender: "David Isaacs" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (AccessPort) (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: off: way beyond seattle Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------3B4F913DE6D0D737B6AC5169" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2599 --------------3B4F913DE6D0D737B6AC5169 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Friends, Seattle was just scratching the surface. This morning, about > 2am, while listening to NPR as I was working, I happened to hear two > commentaries on the Show "Sound Money" an investment advice show for > those with lots of discretionary income [ not exactly my current > profile ]. The first commentator had a long piece about globalization > being the best thing that could happen in the world. Seattle wasn't > an issue, fairness for employees wasn't an issue, the environment > wasn't an issue, GLOBALIZATION was just the best thing that could > happen.Commentator was Chris somebody. Chris was followed by Erica. > Erica proceeded to tell folks who didn't have money to invest that > they could pare down their expenses by putting together a really tight > budget and eliminating all those visits to fancy restaurants. This > delusional PROPAGANDA is broadcast by NPR 4X daily. The show can be > found on the National Public Radio web site along with the full name > of the producer "Cindy something at 1-800-652-9700 x 1087. > > Its clearly not "public" radio anymore. And getting my reports of > "News of the World" from a Rudolph Steiner mailing list is a frightful > indication of how far we need to go to get the word out. > > After the dawn of the atomic age, some general wrote a book entitled > "There is No High Ground" and I'm feeling that we are back there > again. These topics had no place on this show/they had no balanced > opinion/ yet there they were presented as the obvious TRUTH. > > I wish you all blessings of the season as well as strength for the > upcoming struggles. I'll be signing off for some time now, having my > own struggles to address at the hospital. > > May the message of God spread far and wide, > In Love and Light, > davidi. --------------3B4F913DE6D0D737B6AC5169 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Friends, Seattle was just scratching the surface.  This morning, about 2am, while listening to NPR as I was working, I happened to hear two commentaries on the Show "Sound Money" an investment advice show for those with lots of discretionary income  [ not exactly my current profile ].  The first commentator had a long piece about globalization being the best thing that could happen in the world.  Seattle wasn't an issue, fairness for employees wasn't an issue, the environment wasn't an issue, GLOBALIZATION was just the best thing that could happen.Commentator was Chris somebody.  Chris was followed by Erica.  Erica proceeded to tell folks who didn't have money to invest that they could pare down their expenses by putting together a really tight budget and eliminating all those visits to fancy restaurants.  This delusional PROPAGANDA is broadcast by NPR 4X daily.  The show can be found on the National Public Radio web site along with the full name of the producer "Cindy something at 1-800-652-9700 x 1087.

Its clearly not "public" radio anymore.  And getting my reports of "News of the World" from a Rudolph Steiner mailing list is a frightful indication of how far we need to go to get the word out.

After the dawn of the atomic age, some general wrote a book entitled "There is No High Ground" and I'm feeling that we are back there again.  These topics had no place on this show/they had no balanced opinion/ yet there they were presented as the obvious TRUTH.

I wish you all blessings of the season as well as strength for the upcoming struggles.  I'll be signing off for some time now, having my own struggles to address at the hospital.

May the message of God spread far and wide,
In Love and Light,
davidi.


  --------------3B4F913DE6D0D737B6AC5169-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 6 22:31:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20160 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 22:31:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA26169; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 22:27:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25994 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 22:26:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (cust90.nrvmax5.tor1.netrover.com [205.209.27.90]) by river.netrover.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA07163 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 22:29:27 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-From: villager@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: Re: Off/ RS 3-fold lecture Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 22:24:18 -0500 Message-ID: <01bf4062$8c7f7840$5a1bd1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2600 Thank you Malcom for the correct number.[ 338] I'm searching this text for our local BD newsletter editor who assumed that it might be in English by now .......as well as for our still-forming, agri-based community's current dialogue on our own governance. When I read "3-fold", I also made the assumption of implicit relevance. I do realize that this presupposes sufficient acquaintance with the rest of R.S. werke, and we are resolved to do this. Can you shed any light on this?....... greatly appreciated, as most involved do not speak German. .........manfred palmer -----Original Message---- From: malcolm ian gardner To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, December 06, 1999 9:14 PM Subject: Re: Off/ RS 3-fold lecture >At 09:33 AM 12/6/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Hi: Can anyone point me to an online version of the text referred to below? >>I have tried the RS e-library archives last week, and have had no response >yet. We need >this material for our ongoing community project >considerations.Thank you for any help. ..... >manfred palmer >> >>English version of the lecture Steiner gave in Stuttgart from February 12 >to 17th >>1921 (GA 330) about "how to work for the impulse of the threefold social >>organism". > >Manfred, > Who gave you this reference? The proper GA number for the lectures >you mention is GA 338, but why do you think these are particularly relevant >to your community project and what makes you think they have been translated >into English yet? > >Malcolm > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 6 23:45:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA21012 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:45:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA05503; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:41:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05300 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:40:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca31.vthokies.net [206.153.172.31]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA05182 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:39:20 -0500 Message-ID: <000601bf406d$b27b4820$1fac99ce@4l43e> From: "714" To: References: <382001226.944322091282.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> <384B03E6.3BF32F77@bellatlantic.net> Subject: Re: FW:[Taking-control] COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN SEATTLE Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:44:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2601 ----- Original Message ----- From: Judson Chambers To: Sent: Sunday, December 05, 1999 7:31 PM Subject: Re: FW:[Taking-control] COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN SEATTLE > Hi Listmembers, > > After reading the below quote I am reminded of a section in this cited ebook > ("FLUORIDE'S EFFECT ON YOUR BRAIN - UNBELIEVABLE YET TRUE." > SOLID PROOF OF FLUORIDE'S MENTAL EFFECTS. BY JOHN N. MAGUIRE III) named "THE > FLUORIDE MAFIA" which cites complicity of "GOVERNMENT" involvement in the > pollution of "OUR" water supply with the poison fluoride. Its enforcement of > this poison and other activities are reminescent of what Pam has stated below > and is in concert with the mode of behaviour that "Government" has displayed at > its inception, ie coercive violative and unjust action in the "name of the > people". We have somehow been convinced that this mode of social organization is > our best form of social organization while we shaped and reshaped its (ie > Government's) appearance. It seems that even R. Steiner and his three-fold > concept was another attempt at managing this unjust and coercivist body, but I > have'nt been convinced. Can anyone ever persuade me of the specific > anti-coercivist attentions possibly inherent in the three-fold government > concept of R. Steiner? >[snip] Dear Judson, I'm not sure what your experience has been with Steiner's "threefold government concept," but I can say that it was definitely not intended as something that could be "imposed" on a population. In other words, it was not a utopian scheme, but rather an attempt to articulate the (spiritual) laws _inherent_ in social groupings. A threefold society will come about when people share this insight and choose (voluntarily!) to arrange their lives and interactions to reflect these laws. What we usually think of as government, in fact, forms only one of the three sectors of society in Steiner's description--the so-called "rights" or "political" sector. In our modern age, government works best when it exists solely to protect the _equality_ of its (adult) citizens, i.e., to formulate and enforce rights and obligations that apply equally to _every_ member of the populace. On the other hand, the economy works best (i.e., to meet people's material needs), when it is not centrally managed by the government, but rather _cooperatively_ managed by those directly involved, i.e., the producers, consumers, and distributors. The principle of competition is _not_ an efficient basis for an economy; individual competition is socially useful only in the realm of ideas, in the cultural realm, the third sector. Individual freedom is the ultimate form of self-government, is it not? When these ideas start to become self-evident, people will naturally want to arrange their societies accordingly. In the meantime, they will experience alternating periods of chaos and control. Yours, Malcolm Gardner to a large number of people Toward this end, . In our modern age, the political From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 07:46:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA24790 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:46:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA04542; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:42:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA04386 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.72] (pm3shep2-163-72.intrepid.net [209.190.163.72]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA27043 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:42:27 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:45:08 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Re: Corn Info Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2602 > >This is off-topic within topic.... > >For an article I'm writing on native american use of corn, I'm looking for >a definition of 'nixtamalisation' that I can reference (I'm not finding it >in any of the on-line dictionaries (that I can afford) or in any of my >reference books here. ("Nixtamalisation" is the name of the process used >by native americans to alter the nutritional content of corn by applying >alkaline substances to it (be it woodash or lime). The process removed the >hulls from the corn, but it also made many nutrients in the corn (notably >B-vitamins and tryptophan) more available for human assimilation. > >If you have a reference for a definition of this word, it w.b. greatly >appreciated. > >Thanks > >-Allan Balliett >claymont farm CSA >csa@claymont.org >igg@igg.com > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 08:09:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA24987 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:09:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06089; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:05:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (dfprxy01.prodigy.net.mx [148.235.168.40] (may be forged)) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA05944 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:02:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.124] (du-148-233-78-124.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMD00DBVGC6S0@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:04:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 07:04:27 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Moon and bamboo, grafting + opposition with saturn In-reply-to: <01bf3ff6$e62ee180$0715d1cd@default> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id IAA05954 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2603 Hi to all: Today I spend the day with two elderly peasants (75 +) and some of their info seems to be conflicting with mine re. the effect of the moon. They claim that a sort of bamboo, named here "otate" (Othantera) and used for construction, has to be cut during full moon in order for the "wood" to be resistant to rotting and insect attack. My understanding is that at full Moon, the amount of water in the stem would be the greatest and therefore the posibility for rotting should also be high. Aparently this is not so; they show me a shelf made from Otate that was 30 years old and it is completely untreated. can someone please comment on this ?. In reference to grafting trees, I would like to know the mechanism operating here. Is it the same as transplanting at full moon to facilitate root growth ?. People here wait for the full moon to do it, claiming it will increase the success rate. I would also like to know how to calculate when there is an opposition of the moon and saturn. I guess this would happen periodically (every 28 days), so if I know one date, I could easily foretold the next opposition without getting into complex astrology or without the need to use "ephemerides". I would appreciate your help doing this. Many thanks Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 08:41:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA25310 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:41:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08372; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:37:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07969 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:34:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip097.computer.net [140.186.252.97]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA05761 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:37:31 -0500 (EST) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:37:46 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: December 05, 1999 - December 11, 1999 Message-ID: <8808DFEF0C42B10A85256840004ADA45.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id IAA07971 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2604 Calendar of the Soul [December 05, 1999 - December 11, 1999] Thirty-sixth Week (December 8-14) Within my being's depths there speaks, Intent on revelation, The cosmic Word mysteriously: Imbue your labor's aims With my bright spirit light To sacrifice yourself through me. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ In meines Wesens Tiefen spricht Zur Offenbarung drängend Geheimnisvoll das Weltenwort: Erfülle deiner Arbeit Ziele Mit meinem Geisteslichte, Zu opfern dich durch mich. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+36 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 09:52:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26251 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:52:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13702; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:48:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13463 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:45:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.50.58.59] (A28.reach.net [204.50.58.59]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA08087 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:48:48 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:48:48 -0500 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Re: Moon and bamboo, grafting + opposition with saturn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2605 Guillermo writes: >Hi to all: > >Today I spend the day with two elderly peasants (75 +) and some of their >info seems to be conflicting with mine re. the effect of the moon. > >They claim that a sort of bamboo, named here "otate" (Othantera) and used >for construction, has to be cut during full moon in order for the "wood" >to be resistant to rotting and insect attack. My understanding is that at >full Moon, the amount of water in the stem would be the greatest and >therefore the posibility for rotting should also be high. Aparently this >is not so; they show me a shelf made from Otate that was 30 years old and >it is completely untreated. can someone please comment on this ?. > >In reference to grafting trees, I would like to know the mechanism >operating here. Is it the same as transplanting at full moon to >facilitate root growth ?. People here wait for the full moon to do it, >claiming it will increase the success rate. ***** Thanks Guillermo, and I hope people jump on this thread. I've been trying to put together a 'cheat sheet' of all the advice around moon phases for my work around my grape vines. There does seem to be conflicting thoughts out there. For instance, I'm about to do dormant wood harvest from my vines for planting and graftwork next spring, but still can't sort out when would be the optimal times. Harvest in last quarter to new...avoid waxing moon...avoid full moon...harvest at full moon...takers sorting this out? Cheers, Geoff Heinricks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 10:10:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26562 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:10:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15407; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:06:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15293 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:05:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.72] (pm3shep4-163-204.intrepid.net [209.190.163.204]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA22667; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:08:55 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:11:36 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Noted Organic Gardening Author, Shep Ogden, to speak at Claymont Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2606 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE WHAT: Organic Heirloom Flower Gardening with Shepherd Ogden WHEN: Saturday, December 18, 1999, 1PM to 3PM WHERE:Claymont Court Mansion, Charles Town, WV CONTACT: Allan Balliett (304) 724-6763 csa@claymont.org Web Information http://www.claymont.org/csa (by 12/10) On Saturday, December 18 at 1:00 p.m. Shepherd Ogden will present a lecture and slideshow on "Organic Heirloom Flower Gardening" in the ballroom of the historic Shenandoah Valley Washington home, Claymont. Claymont Court, a 365-acre organically certified historic estate and site of the annual Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming Conference, is located outside of Charles Town, WV. A master photographer as well as internationally known gardening author and seedsman, Ogden will lecture on the philosophy, principles and techniques of raising beautiful flowers without the use of chemicals. His presentation will illustrated with his slides of interesting flowers and flower gardens from around the world (undoubtedly augmented with anecdotes and commentary about his experiences in gathering a collection of heirloom flower seeds for his seed company, The Cook's Garden ("Seeds and Suppliers for the New American Garden") http://www.cooksgarden.com.)) The afternoon promises to be visually rich and lively and of strong interest to gardeners who have often felt helpless keeping flowers and plants vibrant while dealing with mildews and pests organically. Shepherd Ogden is founder and president of The Cook's Garden, a mail order seed and supply house based in Vermont committed to providing American gardeners with untreated seed of both heirloom and modern gardening plants from around the world. His gardens and seed business have been the subject of articles in Country Journal, Inc., Organic Gardening, Time, Newsweek, Forbes, Vermont Life, Victoria, Martha Stewart Living, Boston Herald, New York Times, and USA Today. Ogden is a former board member of both The Vermont Small Fruit and Vegetable Growers Association and the Garden Writers Association of America. He is the author of four books and more than fifty magazine articles on all aspects of horticulture, agriculture and the environment and has been a contributing editor for both Organic Gardening and National Gardening magazines, where until recently he was Editor at Large. Ogden was the 1988 recipient of the American Horticultural Society's GB Gunlogson Award for "extraordinary and dedicated efforts in the field of horticulture." He has lectured at botanical gardens and appeared at professional and amateur symposia in most regions of the United States, and in 1995 conducted a month long lecture tour of the Czech Republic under the auspices of Volunteers in Overseas Cooperative Assistance (USAID). Ogden currently lectures on Agro-Ecology at Green Mountain College in Vermont and is researching a new book on biotechnology and our food supply. A 1967 graduate of Charles Town High School, he and his wife, Ellen, have two children: Molly (15) and Sam (11). The talk is free and open to the public, but seating is limited, so please RSVP. Shepherd Ogden will bring some of his books to sign and sell. Refreshments will be available. Some 'gifts from the garden' will be available for purchase. This presentation is part of an on-going series of natural gardening and agroecology educational events held at Claymont Court in cooperation with the Claymont Farm Community Supported Agriculture Project. SEATING IS LIMITED AND RESERVATIONS ARE STRONGLY RECOMMENDED!! For more reservations and more information (and for volunteer and internship opportunities) please contact Garden Manager Allan Balliett at (304) 724-6763 or email at csa@claymont.org or on the world-wide-web at http://www.claymont.org/csa A map and directions to Claymont are available at http://www.claymont.org Shepherd Ogden will also be speaking in the Eastern Panhandle of West Virginia on Wednesday, Dec 16 at the National Conservation Training Center. His topic will be 'Running a Seed Company.' For more information on this free event, contact Mark Madison at mark_madison@fws.gov or http://www.nctc.fws.gov/history/communitylectures.html Materials for editors: - A color photograph of Shep Ogden in his garden is available - A 8.5x11inch flyer in .pdf format is available on email request From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 10:57:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27864 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:57:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19457; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:53:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19255 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:51:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.72] (pm3shep4-163-204.intrepid.net [209.190.163.204]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA00046 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:54:52 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:57:25 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: ADMIN:"Painlessly" Supporting BD Now! Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2607 Dear BD Now! member. Another 'billing' interval has come and gone with the BD Now!/Amazon Books associate program. I think we netted $3 in the past month. I thank the couple of people who engaged with my request last month and actually used the BD Now! portal at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/booksale.html to enter Amazon and do their e-shopping. Thanks goes to Robert Farr who came to me with a list of sustainable ag titles he is buying and had me formulate urls so that BD Now! got maximum credit for each of his purchases. (Our dividends for his efforts won't show up until next week.) Malcolm Gardener has also been patient enough to work with us like this in the past. If you didn't catch it the first time, I'll spell it out again. There are real expenses to operating and supporting this list. One painless way we all have of contributing some cash to BD Now! is by taking advantage of Amazon.com's offer to give a 'rebate' to BD Now! for any purchases made through the BD Now! webpages. You can either order specific items through BD Now! (This gives BD Now! the highest percentage of rebate) or you can enter the portal and BD Now! gets a small percentage of all of your purchases (books, music, toys, electronics, as far as I know). The most important thing: this doesn't cost you any more than your consideration! (there is not extra charge to you. A very small percentage of money you may have decided to spend anyway will be sent to BD Now! at the end of the quarter. If you need any individual help in making this system work for you, don't hesitate to contact me, Allan Balliett, at igg@igg.com. If you want to skip the Amazon process and make direct contributions to BD Now!, they can be sent to Allan Balliett POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 (304) 724-6763. We are in a unique position - - not directly related to BD Now! - - of being able to accept VISA/MasterCard/ Discover. As a project of the Claymont Society, all contributions are tax deductable in the US (but always check with your own accountant.) The bottom line here is that the equipment that has kept us on line for the past 200 weeks is too wornout to allow me to support the discussion group and web pages in the manner that they deserve in the time that I have available.The cost of getting 'back up to speed' is small compared to the value of this on-going discussion in the lives of many. The equipment is also unreliable and takes more of my precious time for maintainence than it allows me for education. One personal belief that keeps me working to keep BD Now! moving smoothly is the belief that if we all work together from our higher selves, we can save Nature from those that are working from their lowest selves. There are nearly 300 of us on this list. If everyone makes a small effort - - or donation - - to support this project, it can be amply funded without it costing anyone much at all. If for no other reason, please do SOMETHING to support BD Now! (even if it's only writing a letter of appreciation/support) so I can continue to convince my poor neglected wife that I'm not deluded as well as quixotic. Thanks to Robert Farr and Hugh Lovel for their recent cash contributions. Sincerely, -Allan Balliett From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 12:51:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01063 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:51:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00924; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:46:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00309 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:42:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 3425 invoked from network); 7 Dec 1999 17:45:30 -0000 Received: from i48-40-46.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO new99) (216.26.62.174) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 1999 17:45:30 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991207092254.0092b9a0@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 09:22:54 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Re: OFF FWD (for what it's worth) APFN, Seattle, & propaganda... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2608 I hope we have exhausted this topic by now. A disturbing one but certainly off topic. I wanted to comment on one posting forwarded by Allan. The internet requires that we use common sense and confirm truth. I would prefer that we refrain from passing around unsubstantiated rumors and outright propaganda. This right-wing article is a good example of why one should be skeptical of internet postings. Ask yourself if it makes sense before posting to others. (1) Writer wont give his name -- thats grounds for skeptism right there. (2) College students hired to do demos? And no one else has heard of this? (3) Good pay (by student standards) and ritzy expenses? Does this ring true? Obviously not vegitarian meals! (4) Writer claims to have carried all kinds of signs for all kinds of groups. Does this fit? Wouldnt most protesters be representing one group at a time? Wouldnt others have noticed roving agents? And he wore a panda suit. Were there panda suited folks there? (5) He was paid by Agi Business, given vitamins (from ADM?) and Pepsi. Why? Since when are these corporations opposed to WTO? Does this make sense? Was he supposed to incite violence and discredit the other protesters? He says nothing about that, merely that he was to show up and be there. (6) Is it a discredit to the 50,000 other protesters even if 100 were paid agitators? (7) Notice the conclusion -- that environmentalists are seeking more control, therefore pawns of the New World Order. And he reached this conclusion despite having no prior political opinions and not even knowing what WTO was before hand? Interesting that he didnt find the need to accept personal responsibility for the world's problems, only to resist having imposed solutions. My conclusion -- this is internet disinformation of the worst kind and should not be passed around. Unless Allan is demonstrating why the internet requires caution. Just because its posted doesnt mean its true. ==================== David Robison Stellar Processes 1033 SW Yamhill Suite 405 Portland, OR 97205 (503) 827-8336 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 13:33:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01878 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:33:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05818; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:29:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05484 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:25:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from micron - 63.20.184.3 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:28:43 -0800 Message-ID: <000f01bf40e0$ff185560$03b8143f@micron> From: "Wells" To: References: Subject: Re: Moon and bamboo, grafting + opposition with saturn Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:29:26 -0800 Organization: Microsoft Corporation X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2609 If you find out other than on the internet please put the info on here--concerning the moon phases for planting,etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: Geoff Heinricks To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 6:48 AM Subject: Re: Moon and bamboo, grafting + opposition with saturn > Guillermo writes: > >Hi to all: > > > >Today I spend the day with two elderly peasants (75 +) and some of their > >info seems to be conflicting with mine re. the effect of the moon. > > > >They claim that a sort of bamboo, named here "otate" (Othantera) and used > >for construction, has to be cut during full moon in order for the "wood" > >to be resistant to rotting and insect attack. My understanding is that at > >full Moon, the amount of water in the stem would be the greatest and > >therefore the posibility for rotting should also be high. Aparently this > >is not so; they show me a shelf made from Otate that was 30 years old and > >it is completely untreated. can someone please comment on this ?. > > > >In reference to grafting trees, I would like to know the mechanism > >operating here. Is it the same as transplanting at full moon to > >facilitate root growth ?. People here wait for the full moon to do it, > >claiming it will increase the success rate. > > ***** > > Thanks Guillermo, and I hope people jump on this thread. I've been trying > to put together a 'cheat sheet' of all the advice around moon phases for my > work around my grape vines. There does seem to be conflicting thoughts out > there. For instance, I'm about to do dormant wood harvest from my vines for > planting and graftwork next spring, but still can't sort out when would be > the optimal times. Harvest in last quarter to new...avoid waxing > moon...avoid full moon...harvest at full moon...takers sorting this out? > > Cheers, > Geoff Heinricks > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 14:11:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02598 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:11:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10619; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:07:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f35.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10127 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:03:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 43412 invoked by uid 0); 7 Dec 1999 19:06:30 -0000 Message-ID: <19991207190630.43411.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.138.182.205 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 07 Dec 1999 11:06:30 PST X-Originating-IP: [205.138.182.205] From: "Charles Premoe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Re: Corn Info Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 11:06:30 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2610 Allan: Please check out this web site http://www.ucsofa.com/more.htm then scroll down until you see the product called Sonic Bloom. Click on that to obtain a breif explination of that particular product. They claim that they can now grow corn fifteen feet high with ears two feet in length with more sweet flavor than regular varieties. All this and more with some special organic process that this company has developed. Let me know what you think. Charles Premoe capremoe@hotmail.com >From: Allan Balliett >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: OFF: Re: Corn Info >Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:45:08 -0400 > > > > >This is off-topic within topic.... > > > >For an article I'm writing on native american use of corn, I'm looking >for > >a definition of 'nixtamalisation' that I can reference (I'm not finding >it > >in any of the on-line dictionaries (that I can afford) or in any of my > >reference books here. ("Nixtamalisation" is the name of the process used > >by native americans to alter the nutritional content of corn by applying > >alkaline substances to it (be it woodash or lime). The process removed >the > >hulls from the corn, but it also made many nutrients in the corn (notably > >B-vitamins and tryptophan) more available for human assimilation. > > > >If you have a reference for a definition of this word, it w.b. greatly > >appreciated. > > > >Thanks > > > >-Allan Balliett > >claymont farm CSA > >csa@claymont.org > >igg@igg.com > > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 14:20:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02818 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:20:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12060; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:16:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11791 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:15:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 63.23.17.2 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:18:12 -0800 Message-ID: <002201bf40e8$cc0f2c40$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: The Apes and BD practise/Towards leadership Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:25:17 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2611 Thanks Glen for the explanation. I understand, I think, where you are coming from. Even here in the land of the we have many people who think you need to to do things. But they are few and increasingly fewer. Competence is what prevails, as you point out. There is a saying: I want to support your (especially potent questions that lead towards improvements, not just negative criticisms) AND at the same time I want to support all of us showing leadership - each in our own way. Critique alone is not enough, we have to show a better way. In fact the most potent question is the question that leads to solutions. For me, leadership means three things: instruction, inspiration and modeling. Let's explain how to do , inspire others to do it well and do it ourselves: this is the true revolution. Warm regards, Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 14:39:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03185 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:39:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15006; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:35:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f53.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.53]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14145 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:30:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 99908 invoked by uid 0); 7 Dec 1999 19:33:52 -0000 Message-ID: <19991207193352.99907.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.138.182.205 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 07 Dec 1999 11:33:52 PST X-Originating-IP: [205.138.182.205] From: "Charles Premoe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ADMIN:"Painlessly" Supporting BD Now! Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 11:33:52 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2612 Have you ever concidered setting up some type of chat room or ICQ or something of that nature. At hotmail they have free chat rooms. I don' know is this would be of any help or not. Just a friendly suggestion. Charles Premoe capremoe@hotmail.com >From: Allan Balliett >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: ADMIN:"Painlessly" Supporting BD Now! >Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:57:25 -0400 > >Dear BD Now! member. Another 'billing' interval has come and gone with the >BD Now!/Amazon Books associate program. I think we netted $3 in the past >month. I thank the couple of people who engaged with my request last month >and actually used the BD Now! portal at >http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/booksale.html to enter Amazon and do their >e-shopping. Thanks goes to Robert Farr who came to me with a list of >sustainable ag titles he is buying and had me formulate urls so that BD >Now! got maximum credit for each of his purchases. (Our dividends for his >efforts won't show up until next week.) Malcolm Gardener has also been >patient enough to work with us like this in the past. > >If you didn't catch it the first time, I'll spell it out again. There are >real expenses to operating and supporting this list. One painless way we >all have of contributing some cash to BD Now! is by taking advantage of >Amazon.com's offer to give a 'rebate' to BD Now! for any purchases made >through the BD Now! webpages. You can either order specific items through >BD Now! (This gives BD Now! the highest percentage of rebate) or you can >enter the portal and BD Now! gets a small percentage of all of your >purchases (books, music, toys, electronics, as far as I know). The most >important thing: this doesn't cost you any more than your consideration! >(there is not extra charge to you. A very small percentage of money you may >have decided to spend anyway will be sent to BD Now! at the end of the >quarter. > >If you need any individual help in making this system work for you, don't >hesitate to contact me, Allan Balliett, at igg@igg.com. > >If you want to skip the Amazon process and make direct contributions to BD >Now!, they can be sent to Allan Balliett POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 >(304) 724-6763. We are in a unique position - - not directly related to BD >Now! - - of being able to accept VISA/MasterCard/ Discover. As a project of >the Claymont Society, all contributions are tax deductable in the US (but >always check with your own accountant.) > >The bottom line here is that the equipment that has kept us on line for the >past 200 weeks is too wornout to allow me to support the discussion group >and web pages in the manner that they deserve in the time that I have >available.The cost of getting 'back up to speed' is small compared to the >value of this on-going discussion in the lives of many. The equipment is >also unreliable and takes more of my precious time for maintainence than it >allows me for education. > >One personal belief that keeps me working to keep BD Now! moving smoothly >is the belief that if we all work together from our higher selves, we can >save Nature from those that are working from their lowest selves. There are >nearly 300 of us on this list. If everyone makes a small effort - - or >donation - - to support this project, it can be amply funded without it >costing anyone much at all. If for no other reason, please do SOMETHING to >support BD Now! (even if it's only writing a letter of >appreciation/support) so I can continue to convince my poor neglected wife >that I'm not deluded as well as quixotic. > >Thanks to Robert Farr and Hugh Lovel for their recent cash contributions. > >Sincerely, > >-Allan Balliett > > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 15:36:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04686 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22356; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:32:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21584 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:28:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.206] (pm3shep4-163-196.intrepid.net [209.190.163.196]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA29380 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:31:31 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19991207190630.43411.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:31:49 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: OFF: Re: Corn Info Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2613 >Allan: >Please check out this web site http://www.ucsofa.com/more.htm then scroll >down until you see the product called Sonic Bloom. Click on that to obtain a >breif explination of that particular product. They claim that they can now >grow corn fifteen feet high with ears two feet in length with more sweet >flavor than regular varieties. All this and more with some special organic >process that this company has developed. Let me know what you think. >Charles Premoe >capremoe@hotmail.com Oh, Charles, et al: I did get the final word from the president of MSOGBA, our certifying agency. SONIC BLOOM is not permitted for use on farms or gardens to be certified as ORGANIC through the Mountain State Organic Growers and Buyers Association (MSOGBA) So I won't be growing with SONIC BLOOM this season. But why don't you try it out and keep me posted on what those big ears of corn do to your stool? I swear, Charles, when it comes to corn, all that I want is corn, like Iroquois White Corn, that comes from seed that has been husbanded with love and reverence by the same family of people (almost!) in my bioregion for more than 800 years (hand selected for both beauty AND nutrition) grown in the soil here at Claymont that is being restored to it's primordial level of alive-ness and balance through appropriate cultivation and amendment, enhanced with forces through the use of the BD preps. All of this is very inexpensive in a material way and yet beyond the reach (and, undoubtedly, the desires) of the wealthiest of men. More research, more intelligence, more backwork and compost yard work, prayers for a punt gun with silencer to deal with all the deer that truly nutritious produce attracts.... and a hell of a lot less time for shopping and chatting. Thanks for reminding me. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 16:29:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05886 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:29:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA27798; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:24:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from oznet15.ozemail.com.au (oznet15.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.116]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27579 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:21:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (slmlb18p40.ozemail.com.au [210.84.133.104]) by oznet15.ozemail.com.au (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA26609 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 08:25:17 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <003f01bf415e$5035d620$688554d2@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: References: Subject: Re: Corn Info Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:26:28 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2614 Hi Allan Definition from Lulu Bertram handout (Cocina MexicanA) 'A most important gift those early cultures gave to the nourishing of mankind, huge in consequences and amazing in it's simplicity, is the process through which dry corn is softened for it's use. This process is called Nixtamailzacion. The final result of the process of nixtamailzacion is Masa, corn dough, which is the base to make tortillas, tamales, antojitos and countless other dishes, beverages and Mexican food specialties.' A good reference for you would be Betty Fussell's ( well known as the Corn Queen for her work in the history of the grain) Story of corn. Published this year in Pbk cheers Gwenda ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Tuesday, 7 December 1999 10:45 Subject: OFF: Re: Corn Info > > > >This is off-topic within topic.... > > > >For an article I'm writing on native american use of corn, I'm looking for > >a definition of 'nixtamalisation' that I can reference (I'm not finding it > >in any of the on-line dictionaries (that I can afford) or in any of my > >reference books here. ("Nixtamalisation" is the name of the process used > >by native americans to alter the nutritional content of corn by applying > >alkaline substances to it (be it woodash or lime). The process removed the > >hulls from the corn, but it also made many nutrients in the corn (notably > >B-vitamins and tryptophan) more available for human assimilation. > > > >If you have a reference for a definition of this word, it w.b. greatly > >appreciated. > > > >Thanks > > > >-Allan Balliett > >claymont farm CSA > >csa@claymont.org > >igg@igg.com > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 17:30:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06817 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:30:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA04152; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:25:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03754 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:22:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.196] (pm3shep1-163-47.intrepid.net [209.190.163.47]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25928 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:26:03 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003f01bf415e$5035d620$688554d2@default> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:28:37 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Corn Info Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2615 >A good reference for you would be Betty Fussell's ( well known as the Corn >Queen for her work in the history of the grain) Story of corn. Published >this year in Pbk Thanks, Gwenda. After waiting for far too long for a remaindered copy of 'The Story of Corn' to materialize from friends near the Strand bookstore, I did jump on the paperback copy when I ran across it. Unfortunately, my copy is not nearly as focused on nixtamalisation as I would like, although, as I remember, she devotes an entire chapter to it. Thanks for your recommendation. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 17:44:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07030 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:44:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05713; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:40:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub1.une.edu.au (postfix@[129.180.1.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05179 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:35:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from Enveng-dforster.une.edu.au (enveng-dforster.une.edu.au [129.180.135.50]) by mailhub1.une.edu.au (Postfix) with SMTP id E221036FD; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:37:54 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991208093912.007c3db0@metz.une.edu.au> X-Sender: dforster@metz.une.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 09:39:12 +1100 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, From: Dianne Forster Subject: Re: book on Asian agriculture-similar to bd? In-Reply-To: <002701bf18a9$bbed6460$8c9dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2616 Hello everyone, I have at last found some reference to the place in China where my friend, the professor of agriculture, visited. It was a long time ago - 1978. If there is anyone out there who has contacts at the Chinese Academy of Agricultural Science and North China College of Agriculture in Peking (I don't know if they are the same institution!) it might be possible to track the books down. The group he was travelling with was the the 1st non-official group to visit the Siankiang Uighur Autonomous Region in Western China as well. The book is definitely not Farmers of Forty Centuries. I have a copy of that and it is wonderful. I repeat, there were at least four slim volumes. Chinese letters on right side, English translation on the left page. Setting out information similar to biodynamics, right down to the cow horns filled with manure, when to harvest, when to sow, when to take out weeds etc. Deanna Dianne Forster Environmental Engineering University of New England Armidale NSW 2350 Australia phone 02 6773 3110 fax 02 6773 3084 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 19:09:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08257 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:09:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12966; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:04:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12552 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:00:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ghost ([209.138.55.182]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA24002 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:03:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <025901bf410e$fead96c0$b6378ad1@ghost> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Enigma" To: References: <003b01bf3dab$d0921600$facd2cc3@m00q6c00> <006d01bf3f30$964a6020$8e368ad1@ghost> <384AAC41.599B9634@real.on.ca> Subject: Re: Fw: In Seattle: Reports #1, #2, #3, #3.5 & #4 Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:05:00 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2617 > Ah yes, another American-centric view of the world. "We are the most free > country in the world, so free we are allowed to peacefully protest on the > streets of Seattle and be able to let the police and National Guard fire rubber > bullets and tear gas at us. So much for your entrenched "personal freedoms".At > least no one on this list has tried to blame it on some mythical UN troops, so > that is a start towards accurate thinking. The Police Cheif in charge has been forced to resiegn. Our freedoms are only as good as the people. > > I used to work in the US, and would mention to people that I was from > Canada.Invariably I would get questions about our "socialized" health care > system, and how did we ever put up with it. I would always respond that we put > up with it in the same manner as Americans put up with their "socialized > sidewalks." You know, where you tax everyone, build the sidewalks for everyone, > and let everyone, rich or poor to use them, for the common good. That would > usually shut them up. Completely different thing. You usually don't die from poor sidewalks. > > That's not to say that there are are not problems with our type of health care. > But the fact is, we have a longer average life span than Americans.( So does > most of Europe, using health care systems similar to Canada's). And we spend > probably 30% less per person than the Americans to do it. In short, it works > cheaper for the greatest good. Well as someone who just returned from a trip across Canada, I can tell you what the people I met from East to west had to say on the subject. I found Most Canadians very friendly with the friendliest in the Western Provinces. I found those in the East were fairly hapy with all the social programs in place, while the western provinces complained about the health care system and taxes. The taxes in Canada will choke a horse. funny really because the eaterners are much like the Eatern U.S. in political compasses and the Western Provinces like that of the U.S. West. East Liberal Socialists, West Conservitive. The exception of course is The west coast of the U.S. and B.C.. Do you think Salt air does something to our political compasses? hehe Seriously though it is a strange observation. This is not a U.S. VS England Canada issue really. It is a Liberal/Socialist view point vs a conservative/self reliant view point. I prefer to pay less taxes and fend for myself personally, but that is considered selfish. I think Churches should help the needy not the Govt. Isn't that a better plan? Doesn't the local churches understand local needs better than the central Govt? ah, I am rambling now. > is to assume that "if it is American, it must be good, no need to look for > alternatives" I read an amazing statistic not long ago, that over 30% of the > American Congress did not have passports. Which means they do not travel outside > their country. See above. BTW anything that infringes on my rights is wrong, I don't need to be enlightened on that point. Would never happen in the rest of the world. When your chief > lawmakers choose not to look at the rest of the world, you have a problem. Why? We have the Constitution and Bill of Rights, we don't really care what you all are doing. Do you think we should just follow suit and get rid of our Bill of rights to be more of a common denominator? the UN does. There happy? I have been to Canada as stated above, and I will never live any place where I do not have the rigth to bear arms and end up paying 25% Sales taxes plus income taxes. When I wish to help someone I will do so and I do not want the Govt reaching their hands into my pockets and stealing my money to help the needy. This is just personal, I know a bunch of Californias I would love to send your way! hehe But you already have enough trouble with every province seeming to want to succeed. BTW Ontario and Quebeck are the least loved provinces in Canada, and they have the most political power. Oh yeah and the western provinces do not want B. C. ;^) I had fun with that one! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 19:18:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08343 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:18:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA13793; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:13:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13461 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:09:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 63.23.20.247 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:12:31 -0800 Message-ID: <001501bf4111$e58aedc0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: book on Asian agriculture-similar to bd? Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:16:38 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2618 A translation of the ag course! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 19:18:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08349 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:18:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA13862; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:13:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13570 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:10:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (sdn-ar-005azphoeP149.dialsprint.net [158.252.128.85]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24061 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:14:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <384DA4CE.6D683EA@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 17:22:38 -0700 From: Jim and Jenni Muir X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {TLC;RETAIL} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Re: Corn Info References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2619 Hi Allan, See if any of these sites help with your article on native american corn. Jim and Jenni Muir http://azteca.net/aztec/nahuatl/ http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/tortilla.html http://www.ag.iastate.edu/departments/agronomy/maizearticle.html Allan Balliett wrote: > > > >This is off-topic within topic.... > > > >For an article I'm writing on native american use of corn, I'm looking for > >a definition of 'nixtamalisation' that I can reference (I'm not finding it > >in any of the on-line dictionaries (that I can afford) or in any of my > >reference books here. ("Nixtamalisation" is the name of the process used > >by native americans to alter the nutritional content of corn by applying > >alkaline substances to it (be it woodash or lime). The process removed the > >hulls from the corn, but it also made many nutrients in the corn (notably > >B-vitamins and tryptophan) more available for human assimilation. > > > >If you have a reference for a definition of this word, it w.b. greatly > >appreciated. > > > >Thanks > > > >-Allan Balliett > >claymont farm CSA > >csa@claymont.org > >igg@igg.com > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 19:32:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08526 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:32:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA15185; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:28:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub1.une.edu.au (postfix@[129.180.1.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA14845 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:24:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from Enveng-dforster.une.edu.au (enveng-dforster.une.edu.au [129.180.135.50]) by mailhub1.une.edu.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F72E3705; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:27:32 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991208112849.007eb100@metz.une.edu.au> X-Sender: dforster@metz.une.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 11:28:49 +1100 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, From: Dianne Forster Subject: Re: book on Asian agriculture-similar to bd? In-Reply-To: <001501bf4111$e58aedc0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2620 Now that would be revolutionary! Di At 16:16 7/12/99 -0800, agdoc wrote: > A translation of the ag course! > > > Dianne Forster Environmental Engineering University of New England Armidale NSW 2350 Australia phone 02 6773 3110 fax 02 6773 3084 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 20:22:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09528 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:22:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA20264; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:14:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx.webound.com (root@pop.webound.com [216.90.136.28]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19988 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:11:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [216.90.139.10] (gvl139-42.dial.webound.com [216.90.139.42]) by mx.webound.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/jsb) with ESMTP id TAA07595 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:15:19 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:15:19 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: genegerue@pop.webound.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991207092254.0092b9a0@mail.teleport.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Gene GeRue Subject: Re: OFF FWD (for what it's worth) APFN, Seattle, & propaganda... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2621 David Robison: >I hope we have exhausted this topic by now. A disturbing one but certainly >off topic. Pray tell us all that is off topic on a subject concerned with right living, that we might waste not our time. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 20:47:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09783 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:47:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23052; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:43:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA22619 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:38:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (sdn-ar-005azphoeP149.dialsprint.net [158.252.128.85]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23979 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:41:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <384DB94D.454BC325@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 18:50:05 -0700 From: Jim and Jenni Muir X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {TLC;RETAIL} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Moon and bamboo, grafting + opposition with saturn References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2622 Hi Guillermo, We have some Moon information that may (or may not) prove helpful, although not exactly what you are looking for. Bruised fruit is generally picked in the dark of the Moon, and in a dry sign; it will dry, rather than rot. From the Full Moon to the New Moon, the Moon decreases in light (dark of the Moon). Dry signs are Aries, Gemini, Leo, Sagittarius, and Aquarius. Also a dry, baron sign is selected in the fourth quarter (dark of the Moon) to kill weeds and pests. Capricorn, a fairly productive earth sign is used to erect natural fences. Cancer, a moist and very fertile sign is used for grafting during the light of the Moon (From the New Moon to the Full Moon) -- also Pisces or Scorpio could be used. A fire sign like Aries, Leo, or Sagittarius is used in the 3rd quarter (dark of the Moon) to dry crops. The next full Moon is December 22nd, and on this date the Moon moves into Cancer, a moist and very productive sign. The Moon is in opposition to Saturn on December 31st, and again on January 28th. It was recently in opposition on December 4th. This information was taken from a calendar by Quicksilver Productions called "Cesestial Influences Calendar" for $9.95 US dollars plus $4.50 Air mail to Mexico, if you have a VISA, Mastercard, Discover, or American Express. You can reach them at (541) 482-5343. They are located in Oregon. Each day, you can tell what sign the Moon is in, plus there is a lot of valuable information included. We have found this calendar accurate, and have used it for many years. Jim and Jenni Muir Guillermo Romero wrote: > Hi to all: > > Today I spend the day with two elderly peasants (75 +) and some of their info seems to be conflicting with mine re. the effect of the moon. > > They claim that a sort of bamboo, named here "otate" (Othantera) and used for construction, has to be cut during full moon in order for the "wood" to be resistant to rotting and insect attack. My understanding is that at full Moon, the amount of water in the stem would be the greatest and therefore the posibility for rotting should also be high. Aparently this is not so; they show me a shelf made from Otate that was 30 years old and it is completely untreated. can someone please comment on this ?. > > In reference to grafting trees, I would like to know the mechanism operating here. Is it the same as transplanting at full moon to facilitate root growth ?. People here wait for the full moon to do it, claiming it will increase the success rate. > > I would also like to know how to calculate when there is an opposition of the moon and saturn. I guess this would happen periodically (every 28 days), so if I know one date, I could easily foretold the next opposition without getting into complex astrology or without the need to use "ephemerides". I would appreciate your help doing this. > > Many thanks > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 7 21:31:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10253 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:31:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26573; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:25:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA26455 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:24:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dirkers@juno.com) by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ETAJK6AU; Tue, 07 Dec 1999 21:21:16 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:58:34 -0600 Subject: Full Moon Solstice Message-ID: <19991207.201011.3446.4.Dirkers@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-56 From: Christopher P Dirkers Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2623 Subject: Full Moon Solstice Date: 12-5-99 From: Bruce Chesley Forwarded by: Chris Dirkers --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: jemdet@newnorth.net Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 14:58:58 -0600 "James E. Gribble III" wrote: Millennium Dance - The Sun, Moon and Earth create a Y2K, Cosmic Style ! by Bob Berman A better time to celebrate a truly once in a thousand year event arrives some nine days earlier than the official end of the millennium. This year's December 22 winter solstice coincides with a full moon - a combination that happens only every 3 decades or so...But that's not the only celestial oddity for the day: The moon also reaches perigee, its closest point to the Earth. So this solstice , which brings together the year's lowest sun and longest night, comes at the same time as the closest moon- and a full moon to boot. The last time the full moon , lunar periagee, and winter solstice fell on the same day was in 1866. But even then the moon merely reached its closest approach of the month. On this December 22, the moon will be at its nearest point of the year. Its the kind of event that would have driven "primitive" (his quote, not mine) cultures bonkers !! And believe it or not , there's more...The day of Earth's maximal tilt (when the axis is directed most fully away from the sun) will also combine with a very CLOSE sun...which reaches its nearest point to the earth, 12 days later. The confluence of all these forces at "the very least" will brew up huge proxigean tides, also called "closest of the close moon" tides. They will extend a few , but crucial, inches farther then normal, ranging from reaching the boardwalk highs to lows that uncover rarely exposed marine life. If you add a low pressure storm at sea scenario to this day, ......unusually strong tides could go over the edge and even earthquakes occur more often during strong tide effects... The cosmic culprits responsible for all this drama - the moon and sun occupy opposite ends of the sky on December 21-22. A full moon will rise just as the sun goes down in its leftmost position of the year along the horizon. This exceptionallly plump moon will seem a full 14% wider then than it appeared at apogee, its farthest point from the Earth ... Long ago and early on in the experience of using calendars, years end always coincided with the winter solstice. That changed during the switch from the Julian to the more accurate Gregorian calendar, beginning in the sixteenth century. What seems to have been lost was a much more appropriate time , from a celestial point of view, to celebrate the passing of 1,000 years..........on December 22, when the sun, moon and Earth perform a truly, genuinely, once in a millennium dance...... ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 8 00:34:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA12978 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:34:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA12180; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:28:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA12045 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:26:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from barrylia@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ETAVBBNR; Wed, 08 Dec 1999 00:28:41 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:16:34 -0800 Subject: Fw: Exhibit opportunity @WSARE 2000 conference Message-ID: <19991207.212742.-3979041.4.barrylia@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-21,23,25-27,29-32,34-38,40,42-47,49-54,56-61,63-65,67-69,71-72,74-77,79-80,82-86,88-100,102-114,116-119,121-122,124,126-128,130,132-136,138-141,143-147,149-151,153-155,157-161,163,165-167,169-170,172-181,183-184,186-192,194-197,199-203,205-209,211,213-222 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Barry D Lia Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2624 Of possible interest for those on west coast (exhibitor info followed by conference info): _______________________________________________________________________ Barry Lia \ barrylia@juno.com \ Seattle WA --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Al Kurki To: westernsawg@onenw.org, casawg@igc.org, lbauer@unl.edu, hhusher@zoo.umv.edu, bhlotzma@zoo.uvm.edu, groland@gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu Cc: kaisied@aol.com, sare2000@ext.usu.edu Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 14:59:18 -0700 Subject: Exhibit opportunity @WSARE 2000 conference Message-ID: <199912072158.OAA22992@missouri.mcn.net> ===== A message from the 'westernsawg' discussion list ===== 12/7/99 Hello, I want to share with you an opportunity that isn't seen or had here in the West too often. As you well may know, the Western Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education Program (WSARE) is sponsoring the "Farming for Profit, Stewardship and Community" conference on March 7-9 in Portland, Oregon. Over 400 producers, educators, scientists and NGOs are expected to attend. On March 8th, NGOs and public information centers (those affiliated with Land Grant Universities, USDA, etc.) will have an opportunity to exhibit and talk with conference attendees during a "Share Fair". For the very affordable price of $25, you can have a display table or exhibit booth at the conference ALL DAY March 8th to highlight what your organization is doing in the area of sustainable food and fiber systems. We will have a special two hour block of time devoted just to the "Share Fair" and poster sessions at the conference, plus the lunch hour and afternoon break of March 8th. Your $25.00 gets you a reserved 6 foot table with a table placard, OR a reserved 10 foot booth space with table, along with a mention in the conference program. Access to electric power is available on a VERY limited basis. The tables and booth spaces are available on a first come, first serve basis. There's only 20 tables and FOUR booths available, so here's what you've got to do if you want space at this great event: 1) Send me your request via e-mail, phone, or mail, making sure you answer the four questions below. 2) Within three weeks of requesting your space, write a check or purchase order to OSU-WSARE 2000 conference (with Share Fair in the memo line) and mail to: Gina Hashagen, Dept. of Horticulture, Oregon State University, Corvallis, OR 97331. 3) Register for the conference when you send a check for the table and wait for your confirmation to arrive to you from me via e-mail. 4) Get your materials together for the conference. Remember, shipping, receiving, set up, stocking, staffing and packing up your materials are your responsibility. A WSARE staffer will be at the conference will be at the room early in the morning of March 8th to help you find your table and answer questions you may have. If you have questions prior to this great event, please feel free to contact me. I've enclosed some preliminary information on the conference and its registration costs below. For a conference registration brochure with the complete program and speaker list, contact Gina at hashageg@bcc.orst.edu, phone 541-737-3479. Since you got this e-mail, you very well may receive that brochure soon. Or check out the conference Website (www.wsare.edu/2000). Reservations for these tables will be honored in the order requests are received and paid for, so don't wait. The conference is still three months away, but half the spaces have been filled already. Happy Holidays, Al Kurki Associate Coordinator, WSARE Professional Development Program National Center For Appropriate Technology 4308 Jim Town Rd. Helena, MT 59602 406-475-3729 akurki@mcn.net P.S. The deadline for receipt of applications is January 21st, 2000. But the spaces will probably be long gone before then, so don't delay. REGISTRATION QUESTIONS: 1) Who are you? (Name, organization, address) 2) What do you want? Table? Or Booth Space? 3) Do you need electricity? 4) What is the nature of your exhibitor display materials? (Describe briefly) *News* For Immediate Release: August 1999 --Major Conference Celebrates Sustainable Agriculture Coming of Age in the Year 2000 March 7-9, 2000-- Logan, UT - "Farming and Ranching for Profit, Stewardship, and Community" is the theme of a major sustainable agriculture conference to be held in Portland, Oregon on March 7-9, 2000. Nationally-known speakers, producers, researchers, agricultural extension agents and others from the Western U.S. and around the nation will share their sustainable agriculture successes, experiences and research results. The event is sponsored by the USDA Western Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (Western SARE) program, with major contributions from several land-grant universities and the federal sustainable agriculture effort. "I'm convinced that sustainable agriculture can ensure the survival of American family farming, which is the bottom-line reason I'm committed to the effort," said Larry Thompson, a berry and vegetable grower from Boring, Oregon and chair of Western SARE's governing Administrative Council. According to Thompson, this event will showcase techniques, experts and enterprises that demonstrate why "sustainable agriculture will continue to grow" in the next century and be adopted by all types of producers and agricultural enterprises - large and small, corporate and owner-operated. Among diverse sessions, confirmed keynote speakers include Virginia producer and author Joel Salatin, who will talk about how to increase farm and ranch profits through innovative livestock and ecological practices. Salatin, author of "Pastured Poultry Profits" and "Salad Bar Beef" will both speak and conduct a workshop at the event. In addition, Oregonian Karla Chambers, co-owner and marketing director of Stahlbush Island Farms, will discuss changes in consumer demand for sustainably grown foods. Stahlbush Island Farms is a 2,000-acre vegetable and fruit production and processing operation that markets its frozen pureed foods worldwide. A day-long tour will give attendees on-the-ground experience with prospering Portland-area farms, direct-marketing approaches, eco-labeling successes, and youth and community efforts that relate to local agriculture. Issues about farming in the midst of urban sprawl and regulation will also be illustrated. "Sustainable agriculture has come of age in the year 2000 - as a means of operating a profitable farm or ranch, protecting natural resources, increasing quality of life and producing high quality food and fiber," said John Luna, conference planning committee member and integrated farming systems specialist at Oregon State University. "We expect more than 500 farmers, ranchers, field advisors, scientists, policy-makers, agri-business representatives, educators and sustainable agriculture advocates from around the Western U.S. to come to Portland to learn about and share evolving sustainable agricultural practices," said Luna. The conference will highlight the methods and outcomes of diverse research and education projects funded by the SARE effort -- including university-based, on-farm and producer-directed work. Innovative marketing strategies and examples will be shared, and the role of non-profit organizations and public policy in promoting sustainable agriculture will also be discussed. The benefits of involving farmers and ranchers in agricultural research is another key element of the program. "Sustainable agriculture focuses on increasing profits for farmers, reducing agriculture's impact on natural resources such as water quality and wildlife habitat, and raising quality of life for farm families and their communities," said national SARE Director Jill Auburn. "I look forward to this Western event, which will help build momentum for more sustainable agriculture successes in the year 2000 and beyond," said Auburn. Specific program topics include: irrigated and dryland cropping systems; grazing and livestock operations; innovative marketing strategies, including eco-labeling and direct-marketing; soil quality; biological pest control; vegetable, tree fruit, wine grape and other crops; and more. The program will also offer a number of information-sharing opportunities. The event venue is the Columbia River Doubletree Hotel in Portland, which is situated on the Columbia riverfront, just 10 minutes north of downtown. Conference registration costs $90.00 per person, which includes two lunches, a dinner and conference packet. The March 9th tour is an additional $35.00. For more information about the conference, or to register, contact Gina Hashagen, Oregon State University, at hashageg@bcc.orst.edu or (541) 737-5477. Conference information is also on-line at http://wsare.usu.edu/2000 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 8 01:06:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA13302 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 01:06:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA15363; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 01:01:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA14986 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:59:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.5] (r-66.133.alltel.net [166.102.66.133]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id AAA17905 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:03:12 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000201bf3f3d$738f7680$97ca2cc3@m00q6c00> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 01:06:53 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF: Democracy vs Nazism (was Seattle: Reports... ) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2625 Well, yes, Tony, we may be getting a bit off track, though you might not think so if you had been organically farming in the US last year when the USDA tried to push rules through that not only would have called virtually every travesty including intensife animal confinement (the worst thing going on in agriculture), irradiation, sewage sludge and GMO's "organic" as well as co-opting the term "organic" and any possible variants. Government surely has no place defining science or beliefs, but many therein love to try. I don't know how many David Icke's there are out there. I only know the quality of these two books are worth reading with an open mind. I doubt anyone could read them without an open mind. And if this author ever claimed to be JC there's no hint of it here. And I know that when you have a country like the US that boasts the highest per-capita prison population system in the world and is privatizing its prisons and marketing the labor it is dangerously close to being a full-blown police state. Granted neither the US nor Britain are full-blown, gloves off police states. Even Nazi Germany maintained a public illusion of order and politeness right up till near the last. But if you consider how many of the laws and procedures you or I live under were put in place by ancestors long gone, and how miniscule our say is in how we are governed, then I think you have trouble supporting the illusion that we have any meaningful voice in how we are governed. When you see the degree that both of your parties (or likewise in the US) endorse the same policy line on world trade and European Union, etc. then it may dawn on you what a one party state you really live in. The political debates all focus on paper tigers and there is never any discussion of meaningful issues such as teaching children learning and thinking skills or reforming the banking practices so that repayment of loans conforms to real, physical limitations rather than an openended geometric progression (called compound interest). I see debates in public forums about whether we should train people in organic farming when we cannot hope to feed the world that way, or whether it isn't far more compassionate to use all kinds of poisonous and destructive methods so that everyone will be able to eat. A person listening to this claptrap is given to assume that organic (or biodynamic) farming could never hope to feed the world's population and that any feeling person would consent to the destruction of world agricultural resources because by some mystical equation this is going to be successful in feeding everyone. While even hogs would slim down to toothpicks on this swill, it is offered for public consumption in legislatures and television talk shows. I would suggest that on occasion I know evil when I see or hear it, and to present "two sides" in a public debate like this is just about as insidious as it gets. Yes, we're free. Free to lap it up with a mindless grin on our silly faces because we sit mesmerized at a flickering cathode ray tube, our faculties of reason paralyzed as surely as if they were bathed in sodium pentathol. Or we're free once we can't pay the electric bill for the tube, to wake up and take to the streets in protest in order to get our eyes, lungs and faces bathed in onion gas and capsicum oils. A pretty rude awakening, perhaps. But onions and peppers are good for us and should be included in our diets, thanks God. Am I not arguing that Germany prospered under Hitler even as we do now, and that we have learned how to trump the street corner dissident with the telly rather than putting him in prison--a much more effective way of shunting him aside, to say nothing of more humane. Of course, the other side of that is if he ever becomes too prominent like MLK or the Kennedy brothers there is always assassination with a lunatic fall-guy to take the rap. Sure it sounds foolish to call our present governments on either side of the ocean "police states" because we are identified WITH these states. But if you take the perspective of how our governments will be viewed by people a hundred or two hundred years from now? Our political institutions will be viewed with the same incredulous disbelief as our agricultural thinking that it makes good sense to put poisons on food. Who would be so stupid as to poison their own food for cryin'out loud!? People in the future--having an exterior point of view--will shake their heads in wonder that we could not see what was right in front of us. People in the US are crying for more police. So they get more and more police. Likewise they don't want any bugs or blemishes on their food. So they cry for more "control" meaning more killing, and that is what they get. Best, Hugh >Dear Hugh - I defer to your comments on bio-dynamics, horticulture in >general and practical aspects of spirituality, and I know that you are >personally involved in politics, but I can't let you get away with some of >your statements in answer to my protest that Britain is miles away from >being close to a Nazi state. I wish that we could discuss this at length, >over coffee or beers, as I used to with colleagues and postgrads at the >university, but it's not really closely enough related to the main themes of >BDNow! to go on at such length. > I'll try to get hold of the David Icke books that you mentioned but >(without meaning to take a cheap shot at him or yourself) is this the David >Icke who used to work as a television sports reporter, dropped out of sight >and then reappeared claiming to be Jesus Christ ? > I agree that it's possible to disseminate propaganda in a much more >sophisticated way now than in Nazi Germany, but surely the point is that it >can be done _against_ as well as _for_ official purposes (take this >Internet, for a start !). With exceptions for obscenity, libel and >reasonable restraint against (for example) detailed bomb-making >instructions, I'm perfectly free to publish anything, even if it has to be >done at my own expense and effort (try that in Nazi Germany); I had thought >that this is even more true in the USA ? > Sure, most Germans (with the notable exception of Jews, communists, >other trades-union activists, homosexuals who were not also members of the >SA or SS, 'degenerates' whether in the arts or their physical/mental >condition and various other social undesirables such as gypsies) supported >Hitler; a number of my relatives came back from visits to prewar Germany >with glowing accounts of Hitler's achievements and kept copies of Mein Kampf >by their bedside. Most people will support a leader who "makes the trains >run on time", provides busy-work for the unemployed, bolsters national pride >by building up an efficient-looking military machine etc. One of my >postgrads wouldn't hear a word spoken against Saddam Hussein; Ba'athist >education policies had raised him, in stages, from an Iraqi peasant >background to a prestigious position as a research biologist in one of their >major universities (after he'd returned to Iraq, we discovered that he >severely beat up any of his fellow-students who did speak a word against..., >but they dared not report this). > I don't quite follow your point about identity/identify; of course >I identify with Britain - I've lived here all my long life (including in >London under bombs and ballistic missiles, not the best time to feel >sympathetic towards Nazism !), but that need not mean that my eyes are >cemented shut to many deficiencies. I'm rather pissed off with being >labelled, as though that defines my every thought (and, by the way, does >anyone know if the 'Andy' whose posting set this off is British ? He seems >to have stepped some distance away from such an identity !) Under what is >essentially a two-party system, one in government and the other in >opposition, no one citizen will ever get everything he'd like, even if the >party he votes for sticks to every electoral promise when in power. To that >extent, yes, I have no say in some of the main national issues (is there any >workable system in which I could ?). However, on more local issues I've had >plenty of influence: for example, the munitions range which I mentioned in >another posting was not sited where the Defence Ministry wanted it, because >of the strength of local opposition, much of which I co-ordinated. More >diffusely, central Government has recently responded to public pressure on >GMOs, foxhunting and similar issues. I'm hopeful that regional assemblies, >such as that now set up for Wales, will increase the power of the individual >citizen even on more vital matters. > However, I seem to hear Allan muttering "this correspondence must >now cease... " Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 8 11:23:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19738 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:23:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22607; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:18:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22013 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:12:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.197] (du-148-233-78-197.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMF002OGJPX6U@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:13:16 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 22:10:08 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: The Apes and BD practise/Towards leadership In-reply-to: <002201bf40e8$cc0f2c40$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx (Unverified) To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2626 Dr Lorand wrote: > I understand, I think, where you are coming from. Even here in the land of >the we have many people who think you need to permission> to do things. But they are few and increasingly fewer. I will guess here that you Andrew are not used to ask permission to go your way. Correct me if I am wrong here. Warm greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 8 11:23:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19744 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:23:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22559; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:17:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22011 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:12:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.197] (du-148-233-78-197.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMF002OGJPX6U@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:13:15 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 21:52:32 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Moon and bamboo, grafting + opposition with saturn In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx (Unverified) To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2627 >***** > >Thanks Guillermo, and I hope people jump on this thread. I've been trying >to put together a 'cheat sheet' of all the advice around moon phases for my >work around my grape vines. There does seem to be conflicting thoughts out >there. For instance, I'm about to do dormant wood harvest from my vines for >planting and graftwork next spring, but still can't sort out when would be >the optimal times. Harvest in last quarter to new...avoid waxing >moon...avoid full moon...harvest at full moon...takers sorting this out? > >Cheers, >Geoff Heinricks Hi Geoff: I also hope to get some replies to this questions and then to get a copy of your cheat sheet for my own use. Re. your question, to me it would make sense to cut the vines during the first quarter to take advantage of the dormancy/rest that suposedely happens when you have both decreasing "lunar gravity" and moonlight. What do you think ?, anyone. Cheers Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 8 16:57:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA28459 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:57:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA05974; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:52:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05706 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:49:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0161E71F@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:52:25 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 8 Dec 99 16:53:14 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 8 Dec 99 16:53:07 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:53:06 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Moon and bamboo, grafting + opposition with saturn Priority: normal References: <01bf3ff6$e62ee180$0715d1cd@default> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <129359B42C11@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2628 > Hi to all: > > Today I spend the day with two elderly peasants (75 +) and some of their info seems to be conflicting with mine re. the effect of the moon. > > They claim that a sort of bamboo, named here "otate" (Othantera) and used for construction, has to be cut during full moon in order for the "wood" to be resistant to rotting and insect attack. My un> > In reference to grafting trees, I would like to know the mechanism operating here. Is it the same as transplanting at full moon to facilitate root growth ?. People here wait for the full moon to do> Hi Guillermo, I worked with middle-aged farmers (50+) in the Dominican Republic who also take the moon phases quite seriously, and after helping a 7th Day Adventist kid (they're vegetarians) enclose a garden space with palos, my farmer-mentor, Ignacio, chastised me for having cut the trees at the wrong moon phase (it also happend that he didn't like the kid I was helping who was his brother-in-law and so he looked for reasons to criticize, but that's another story...). I remembered the same as you, however, that they should be cut at new moon to avoid insect damage. But I don't trust my memory 100% on this or most things. I do know that Ignacio's prediction came true, however. Within a very short time, the palos were rotting away. Just a story, Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 8 18:16:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00266 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:16:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14646; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:11:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (dfprxy01.prodigy.net.mx [148.235.168.40] (may be forged)) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14581 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:10:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.104] (du-148-233-78-104.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMG00IJ033V73@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:11:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 17:06:27 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Moon and bamboo, grafting + opposition with saturn In-reply-to: <129359B42C11@agecon.uga.edu> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <01bf3ff6$e62ee180$0715d1cd@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2629 >Hi Guillermo, > >I worked with middle-aged farmers (50+) in the Dominican Republic who >also take the moon phases quite seriously, and after helping a 7th >Day Adventist kid (they're vegetarians) enclose a garden space >with palos, my farmer-mentor, Ignacio, chastised me for having cut >the trees at the wrong moon phase (it also happend that he didn't >like the kid I was helping who was his brother-in-law and so he >looked for reasons to criticize, but that's another story...). I >remembered the same as you, however, that they should be cut at new >moon to avoid insect damage. But I don't trust my memory 100% on >this or most things. I do know that Ignacio's prediction came true, >however. Within a very short time, the palos were rotting away. > > >Just a story, >Anita Hi Anita: Nice story about communities, so much wisdom and so much hatred. The story here is opposite, I would not have trouble cutting wood at new moon, but the people here claim that bamboo should be cut during FULL moon. (I guess it has something to do with the stem shrinking from too little moisture, or something like that). Warm greetings and thanks for sharing Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 8 18:16:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00279 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:16:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14701; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:11:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (dfprxy01.prodigy.net.mx [148.235.168.40] (may be forged)) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14589 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:10:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.104] (du-148-233-78-104.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMG00IJ033V73@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:12:01 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 17:12:17 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Moon and bamboo, grafting + opposition with saturn In-reply-to: <384DB94D.454BC325@earthlink.net> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id SAA14590 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2630 >Hi Guillermo, >We have some Moon information that may (or may not) prove helpful, although not exactly what you are looking for. Bruised fruit is generally picked in the dark of the Moon, and in a dry sign; it will dry, rather than rot. From the Full Moon to the New Moon, the Moon decreases in light (dark of the Moon). Dry signs are Aries, Gemini, Leo, Sagittarius, and Aquarius. Also a dry, baron sign is selected in the fourth quarter (dark of the Moon) to kill weeds and pests. Capricorn, a fairly productive earth >sign is used to erect natural fences. Cancer, a moist and very fertile sign is used for grafting during the light of the Moon (From the New Moon to the Full Moon) -- also Pisces or Scorpio could be used. A fire sign like Aries, Leo, or Sagittarius is used in the 3rd quarter (dark of the Moon) to dry crops. > >The next full Moon is December 22nd, and on this date the Moon moves into Cancer, a moist and very productive sign. > >The Moon is in opposition to Saturn on December 31st, and again on January 28th. It was recently in opposition on December 4th. > >This information was taken from a calendar by Quicksilver Productions called "Cesestial Influences Calendar" for $9.95 US dollars plus $4.50 Air mail to Mexico, if you have a VISA, Mastercard, Discover, or American Express. You can reach them at (541) 482-5343. They are located in Oregon. Each day, you can tell what sign the Moon is in, plus there is a lot of valuable information included. We have found this calendar accurate, and have used it for many years. > >Jim and Jenni Muir > > Thanks for the info J & J: It is indeed useful, specially that about grafting with the moon in cancer. Now about the oppositions (moon vs saturn), from the dates you provide they seem to happen every 28 days or so, is this right ? Do any of the astrology wiz (Glen) care to comment on this ? Many thanks and warm greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 00:24:10 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA05369 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 00:24:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA21913; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 00:17:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA21841 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 00:17:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.104]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991209052703.VWYF1928399.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 18:27:03 +1300 Message-ID: <384F3BF8.7FE@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 18:19:52 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Moon and bamboo, grafting + opposition with saturn References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2631 Do any of the astrology wiz (Glen) care to comment on this ? So it is about expanding and contracting and depends on the job you are doing. Re ttaking cutting wood at the moment. Is this to be used immediately or is it to be stored till spring. If it is to be used immediately then I would do it in expanding moon cycles, Ascending, New>>Full water constellations (not Signs) etc. If you want to keep it then do it on a contracting energy. around New Moon, Descending period etc. When it comes to the spring I would bring it out of the chiller a week or so before Full Moon to be grafted around full Moon. Unless you have a trouble with the sap 'flooding ' the graft then you might like to wait and graft around the new moon. Generally the principle is if you want sap flow involved then use expanding, if you dont use contracting phases. Moon Saturn opposiiton is an contracting(ish) influence. cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 09:42:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13904 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:42:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21634; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:37:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21466 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:36:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.75] (pm3shep1-163-59.intrepid.net [209.190.163.59]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA19279 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:39:55 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:42:47 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Maria Thun/Stella Natura Wall Calendar Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2632 Has anyone seen one of these for the year 2000? I understand that they are being marketed in the UK. What it does is allow you to look at the entire year at one time, so that patterns like Guillermo has asked about stand out more readily. The same designer has made a companion planting chart that was demonstrated at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference. I'm very interested to know if anyone has seen one of the planting calendars. Thanks -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human wellness and development. Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 09:55:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14470 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:55:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22758; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:51:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22292 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:46:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.75] (pm3shep1-163-59.intrepid.net [209.190.163.59]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA21509 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:50:27 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:53:16 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Maria Thun/Stella Natura Wall Calendar Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2633 (I don't think I made this clear originally. These calendars are CHARTS or POSTERS that put all of the information on one sheet.) Has anyone seen one of these for the year 2000? I understand that they are being marketed in the UK. What it does is allow you to look at the entire year at one time, so that patterns like Guillermo has asked about stand out more readily. The same designer has made a companion planting chart that was demonstrated at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference. I'm very interested to know if anyone has seen one of the planting calendars. Thanks -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human wellness and development. Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 10:05:00 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14746 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:04:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23531; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:00:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA23174 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:56:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.50.58.78] (C06.reach.net [204.50.58.165]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA13071 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:59:49 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:59:49 -0500 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Re: Maria Thun/Stella Natura Wall Calendar Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2634 >Has anyone seen one of these for the year 2000? I understand that they are >being marketed in the UK. What it does is allow you to look at the entire >year at one time, so that patterns like Guillermo has asked about stand out >more readily. > >The same designer has made a companion planting chart that was demonstrated >at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference. > >I'm very interested to know if anyone has seen one of the planting calendars. > >Thanks > >-Allan Balliett >igg@igg.com Yes, I got the Stella Natura for 2000 a few weeks ago. It was put in as a replacement for Hugh Lovel's book, which is out of print. I willl probably also get Thun's booklet, when it becomes available...because I would like to compare them...as mentioned in a previous (but unsuccessful) post asking for opinions on the merits of both. Cheers, Geoff Heinricks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 10:14:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15223 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:14:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24343; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:10:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24059 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:06:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from 209.143.11.4 (hils-ras1-1-cs-1.dial.bright.net [209.143.11.4]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id KAA20884 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:10:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <384FC32C.2AD0@bright.net> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 09:56:43 -0500 From: Marilyn Hiestand Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ADMIN:"Painlessly" Supporting BD Now! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2635 Allen, Just a thought. I just used the link to Amazon.com you provided in your email to buy books for Christmas. I will be curious to see if BDnow is credited. Do I go to BDNow to get that link in the future? I was wondering if it is possible to save that link or place it permanently in all your emails? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 10:33:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15879 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:33:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26142; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:28:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f128.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.128]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25825 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:25:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 48606 invoked by uid 0); 9 Dec 1999 15:28:13 -0000 Message-ID: <19991209152812.48605.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.138.182.204 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 09 Dec 1999 07:28:12 PST X-Originating-IP: [205.138.182.204] From: "Charles Premoe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Re: Corn Info Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 07:28:12 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2636 Thanks Allan for your prompt response to my queary on sonic bloom. Sincere Reguards: Charles Premoe capremoe@hotmail.com P.S. Keep up the good work!!! >From: Allan Balliett >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Re: OFF: Re: Corn Info >Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:31:49 -0400 > > >Allan: > >Please check out this web site http://www.ucsofa.com/more.htm then scroll > >down until you see the product called Sonic Bloom. Click on that to >obtain a > >breif explination of that particular product. They claim that they can >now > >grow corn fifteen feet high with ears two feet in length with more sweet > >flavor than regular varieties. All this and more with some special >organic > >process that this company has developed. Let me know what you think. > >Charles Premoe > >capremoe@hotmail.com > >Oh, Charles, et al: I did get the final word from the president of MSOGBA, >our certifying agency. SONIC BLOOM is not permitted for use on farms or >gardens to be certified as ORGANIC through the Mountain State Organic >Growers and Buyers Association (MSOGBA) > >So I won't be growing with SONIC BLOOM this season. But why don't you try >it out and keep me posted on what those big ears of corn do to your stool? > >I swear, Charles, when it comes to corn, all that I want is corn, like >Iroquois White Corn, that comes from seed that has been husbanded with love >and reverence by the same family of people (almost!) in my bioregion for >more than 800 years (hand selected for both beauty AND nutrition) grown in >the soil here at Claymont that is being restored to it's primordial level >of alive-ness and balance through appropriate cultivation and amendment, >enhanced with forces through the use of the BD preps. All of this is very >inexpensive in a material way and yet beyond the reach (and, undoubtedly, >the desires) of the wealthiest of men. > >More research, more intelligence, more backwork and compost yard work, >prayers for a punt gun with silencer to deal with all the deer that truly >nutritious produce attracts.... and a hell of a lot less time for shopping >and chatting. > >Thanks for reminding me. > >-Allan > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 11:06:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16754 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:06:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29326; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:01:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29181 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.21] (pm3shep1-163-21.intrepid.net [209.190.163.21]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05063 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:04:07 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19991209152812.48605.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:07:01 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: OFF: Re: Corn Info Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2637 >Thanks Allan for your prompt response to my queary on sonic bloom. >Sincere Reguards: >Charles Premoe >capremoe@hotmail.com >P.S. Keep up the good work!!! Thank you, Charles, for your perennial optimism! -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 11:15:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17063 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:15:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00258; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:11:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29778 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:06:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.21] (pm3shep1-163-21.intrepid.net [209.190.163.21]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06252 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:09:48 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <384FC32C.2AD0@bright.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:09:06 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: ADMIN:"Painlessly" Supporting BD Now! Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2638 >Allen, > >Just a thought. I just used the link to Amazon.com you provided in your >email to buy books for Christmas. I will be curious to see if BDnow is >credited. Do I go to BDNow to get that link in the future? I was >wondering if it is possible to save that link or place it permanently in >all your emails? Thanks, Marilyn. Yes, that's a permanent link. Yes, I probably should put it in all the emails :-) I don't think there is a way to check right now for BD Now! credit for a purchase. We will receive a statement at the end of the month, however. Thanks for your attention! -Allan moderator BD Now! igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 11:15:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17080 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:15:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00309; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:11:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29788 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:06:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.21] (pm3shep1-163-21.intrepid.net [209.190.163.21]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06266 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:09:51 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:12:43 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Maria Thun/Stella Natura Wall Calendar Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2639 > >I willl probably also get Thun's booklet, when it becomes >available...because I would like to compare them...as mentioned in a >previous (but unsuccessful) post asking for opinions on the merits of both. > >Cheers, >Geoff Heinricks Geoff - Don't hesitate to ask the same question twice if you don't get an answer. Sometimes questions are like pretty girls....oh, never mind!! My answer to your earlier question w.b. you need them both. When it comes time to garden plan, I use both publications (and several other works) in much the same fashion that a Jehovah's Witness uses translations of the Bible...hmmm, maybe this is a bad analogy...but a lot of 'book' swapping does go on. Get them both!! (when both are available). I've got Stella 2000. JPI brought them to the Mid-Atlantic Conference back in October. It's this wall chart that I'm curious about...supposedly it is a wall chart primarily of Maria Thun's information. (Not that Stella is not comprised of the same information.) Thanks -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 11:29:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17611 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:29:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01880; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:25:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01737 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.71] (du-148-233-78-71.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMH00374EJKR8@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:16:35 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 10:16:57 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Moon and bamboo, grafting + opposition with saturn In-reply-to: <384F3BF8.7FE@xtra.co.nz> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA01738 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2640 >Do any of the astrology wiz (Glen) care to comment on this ? > > >So it is about expanding and contracting and depends on the job you are >doing. > >Re ttaking cutting wood at the moment. Is this to be used immediately or >is it to be stored till spring. > >If it is to be used immediately then I would do it in expanding moon >cycles, Ascending, New>>Full water constellations (not Signs) etc. If >you want to keep it then do it on a contracting energy. around New >Moon, Descending period etc. When it comes to the spring I would bring >it out of the chiller a week or so before Full Moon to be grafted around >full Moon. Unless you have a trouble with the sap 'flooding ' the graft >then you might like to wait and graft around the new moon. > >Generally the principle is if you want sap flow involved then use >expanding, if you dont use contracting phases. > >Moon Saturn opposiiton is an contracting(ish) influence. > >cheers > >Glen A. Thanks for your answer Glen: But, there were three diferent issues here. 1.- Why would any one want to cut bamboo in full moon, claiming it will keep better ? 2.- Thanks on the issue on grafting, that you have address in full detail here. 3.- How can I easily calculate the moon saturn opposition. Acording to P.Proctor, this opposition (using it to transplant and sowing seed) is one that promotes balance of forces which translates in healthy and higly tolerant plants (he also mentions that the effect of the full moon, will indeed promote germination but will produce watery and leggy plants) I will appreciate you comments on this, specially on how to calculate the opposition. Does it happen everyt 28 days ? or is there something else to consider ? Kind regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 11:34:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17757 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:34:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02371; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:29:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02274 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:29:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.71] (du-148-233-78-71.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMH009MEF2P8V@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:28:05 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 10:28:29 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: ADMIN:"Painlessly" Supporting BD Now! In-reply-to: <384FC32C.2AD0@bright.net> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA02275 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2641 Dear Allan: Could you negotiate a similar agreement to receive some revenue from purchases done with JPI, ACRES and the BDAA and originated in BD-Now?. Amazon Books is just not for me (and probably many other non US-CAN), The two book purchases I have done in Amazon took about FOUR months to reach me, (using surface mail) while the BDA delivered (using the M bag service) in less than two weeks for more or less the same shipping costs. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 11:53:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18612 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:53:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04537; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:48:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f122.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.122]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04393 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:47:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 86400 invoked by uid 0); 9 Dec 1999 16:50:54 -0000 Message-ID: <19991209165054.86399.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.138.182.204 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 09 Dec 1999 08:50:54 PST X-Originating-IP: [205.138.182.204] From: "Charles Premoe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ADMIN:"Painlessly" Supporting BD Now! Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 08:50:54 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2642 Allan: I also had a thought as to how BD might receive $ support. Here in the state of Missouri we have what is known as, "The School of the Ozark's", which is located in southern Missouri. This is a college where students are enrolled in various work programs that pay for their tuition but act also as part of their educational trainning. For instance; say a student wants to enroll in agriculter. This would be set up much like an apprenticeship program. Each student would earn their degree while providing the labor force to work the farms. The students get their education and the school benifits monitarily from the labor provided by enrollies through the sale of goods produced. Just a thought; let me know what you think. If you would like the address of the college,I will try and locate that for you if you wish to check into it any further. Charles Premoe capremoe@hotmail.com >From: Allan Balliett >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Re: ADMIN:"Painlessly" Supporting BD Now! >Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:09:06 -0400 > > >Allen, > > > >Just a thought. I just used the link to Amazon.com you provided in your > >email to buy books for Christmas. I will be curious to see if BDnow is > >credited. Do I go to BDNow to get that link in the future? I was > >wondering if it is possible to save that link or place it permanently in > >all your emails? > >Thanks, Marilyn. Yes, that's a permanent link. Yes, I probably should put >it in all the emails :-) > >I don't think there is a way to check right now for BD Now! credit for a >purchase. We will receive a statement at the end of the month, however. > >Thanks for your attention! > > >-Allan >moderator >BD Now! >igg@igg.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 12:02:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19274 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:02:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05355; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:58:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05076 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:55:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d151.infoserve.net [199.175.157.151]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA00669; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:01:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001701bf4267$42a77a40$979dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: "Intergalactic Allan Balliett Garage" Cc: Subject: donation Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:03:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF4224.33AA06E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2643 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF4224.33AA06E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Allan, My donation to BDNOW is on its way, Cheers, Michael ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF4224.33AA06E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Allan,
 
  My donation to BDNOW is on = its=20 way,
Cheers, = Michael
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF4224.33AA06E0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 12:03:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19284 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:03:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05404; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:58:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05254 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:57:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.21] (pm3shep3-163-113.intrepid.net [209.190.163.113]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA17251 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:00:50 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <384FC32C.2AD0@bright.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:01:39 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: ADMIN:"Painlessly" Supporting BD Now! Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2644 >Dear Allan: > >Could you negotiate a similar agreement to receive some revenue from >purchases done with JPI, ACRES and the BDAA and originated in BD-Now?. >Amazon Books is just not for me (and probably many other non US-CAN), The >two book purchases I have done in Amazon took about FOUR months to reach >me, (using surface mail) while the BDA delivered (using the M bag service) >in less than two weeks for more or less the same shipping costs. > >Regards > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Dear Guillermo - I would prefer the BD Now! support the BD-related initiatives that you mentioned. In other words, I would not like to ask them for 'dividends.' ACRES is supporting us already in many non-cash ways, so I'd also not like to 'attach' their income. I really think that AMAZON has postage options now, Guillermo. Please look into that if you have the time (I don't know what method is best for you, but I would think registered air mail) I would appreciate it if everyone would say "I head about it on BD Now!" whenever they purchase a product they heard about through this newsgroup. Letting suppliers know that BD Now! does have some economic 'clout' can only benefit all of us in the future. I will be asking both JPI and BDAA to make contributions to BD Now! before the end of the year. Hopefully, they will at least be willing to match the contribution made recently by UAI. Thanks for thinking about this, Guillermo. -Allan Balliett From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 12:07:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19387 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:07:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05846; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:03:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05517 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.21] (pm3shep3-163-113.intrepid.net [209.190.163.113]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA17746 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:03:27 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19991209165054.86399.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:06:21 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: ADMIN:"Painlessly" Supporting BD Now! Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2645 >Allan: >I also had a thought as to how BD might receive $ support. >Here in the state of Missouri we have what is known as, "The School of the >Ozark's", which is located in southern Missouri. This is a college where >students are enrolled in various work programs that pay for their tuition >but act also as part of their educational trainning. For instance; say a >student wants to enroll in agriculter. This would be set up much like an >apprenticeship program. Each student would earn their degree while providing >the labor force to work the farms. The students get their education and the >school benifits monitarily from the labor provided by enrollies through the >sale of goods produced. Just a thought; let me know what you think. If you >would like the address of the college,I will try and locate that for you if >you wish to check into it any further. >Charles Premoe >capremoe@hotmail.com Dear Charles - This is a good idea. Would YOU mind contacting them and having materials mailed to me at Allan Balliett/BD Now! POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443. It w.b. greatly appreciated. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 15:50:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25212 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 15:50:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03533; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 15:45:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA03407 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 15:44:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.71] (du-148-233-78-227.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMH005ZWPRGB4@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 14:18:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 14:19:10 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Johnny's Selected Seeds In-reply-to: <384F3BF8.7FE@xtra.co.nz> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Cc: commercial@johnnyseeds.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id PAA03408 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2646 Dear Friends: I just got the 2000 edition of Johnny's Selected Seeds commercial catalog. The first thing I went to check out was their statement about biotechnology and, with great satisfaction I read the following: ...."We pledge that we do not knowingly buy or sell genetically engineered seed or plants. The mechanical transfer of genetic material outside of natural reproductive methods and between genera, families, or kingdoms, poses great biological risks as well as economic, political and cultural threats"..... IMO this is a big step in the right direction, even more so, in comparisson to Rob Johnston last year's uncompromised position. I celebrate that this tendency against GMO is becoming stronger among people and business. I wanted to post this to the list in recognition to a good business decision and ethical behaviour, just as I did posted last year stating my opposition to the posibility of Jonhnny's marketing GMO's. I have no other relationship to Johnny's than being an ocasional customer. Warm greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 17:24:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27198 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 17:24:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14479; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 17:19:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from fep9.mail.ozemail.net (fep9.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.103]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14128 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 17:16:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (slmlb19p30.ozemail.com.au [210.84.133.158]) by fep9.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA02172 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 09:19:56 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <006401bf42f8$3fa58d00$9e8554d2@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: References: Subject: Re: ADMIN:"Painlessly" Supporting BD Now! Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 21:20:52 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2647 Allan A constant link on the emails as suggested by Marlyn to amazon.com would be a great idea. I frequently use their services and (up until now) had forgotten there was a link from the BDNOW site. Guillermo - Amazon airmail my goods ( to Australia) I get them inside of a fortnight of ordering them and have never had a problem. Regards Gwenda From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 17:43:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27513 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 17:43:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16555; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 17:38:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from srv1.acenet.com.au (postfix@srv1.acenet.com.au [203.35.119.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA16193 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 17:34:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [203.35.156.59] (unknown [203.35.156.59]) by srv1.acenet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 683A187AA for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 09:38:20 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:46:20 +1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: astrocal@acenet.com.au (Brian Keats) Subject: Re: Moon and bamboo, grafting + opposition with saturn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2648 Dear Guillermo, In reply to your admirable persistant questioning:- >But, there were three diferent issues here. > >1.- Why would any one want to cut bamboo in full moon, claiming it will >keep better ? I do not know. For building purposes I would have cut it towards a Winter Full Moon and,and if I had the option, in a descending cycle, if also I had an extra extra option - apogee too! For immediate consumption purposes (shoots) I would go for the Full Moon and so called expanding cycles. > >2.- Thanks on the issue on grafting, that you have address in full detail here. In addition to Glenn sensible reply I would add to beware of the Full Moon towards perigee especially when conditions are already wet. There will be an excess of growth/fertility forces bringing up fungi out of its realm to rise up into the plant. Of course you can balance this with preps but one needs to be aware of what the tendency is towards. >3.- How can I easily calculate the moon saturn opposition. Acording to >P.Proctor, this opposition (using it to transplant and sowing seed) is one >that promotes balance of forces which translates in healthy and higly >tolerant plants (he also mentions that the effect of the full moon, will >indeed promote germination but will produce watery and leggy plants) > >I will appreciate you comments on this, specially on how to calculate the >opposition. Does it happen everyt 28 days ? or is there something else to >consider ? I think first off observation is important. Get to know where Saturn is and what he looks like. By definition in opposition they are opposite each other. When one sets the other is rising and vice versa. To get the exact time of opposition you will need a BD calendar or ephemeris.Saturm / Moon opposition takes place every 27.34 days. re watery & leggy plants - I think it is too simplistic just to look at Full Moon. One needs to strive for a more wholistic picture. Consider the balance of lunar expanding and contracting cycles, inner and outer planets and moisture and soil conditions to start with. These sorts of things and a lot more are available in my book "Betwixt Heaven & Earth". The book does not aim to be a recipe book for BD practices (we all still need to research a lot more). It aims to strive towards a deepening of our pictures and understanding of BD and astronomy. More information will be on my website to be released in the next few days. I have also written and compiled the BD planting guide - "Antipodean Astro Calendar" since 1985. Regards Brian Keats. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 20:41:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01970 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:41:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA01833; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:36:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA01618 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:33:20 -0500 (EST) From: FHacker439@aol.com Received: from FHacker439@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.0.6e3ce801 (4322) for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:36:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.6e3ce801.2581b313@aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:36:19 EST Subject: Re: ADMIN:"Painlessly" Supporting BD Now! To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 44 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2649 My family and I would be interested in participating in an apprenticeship program such as the one you mentioned. We are financially sound (retired Army) and would value the experience to use to establish our own organic farm in the future. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 20:55:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02365 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:55:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA02868; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:50:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA02672 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:47:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.71] (du-148-233-78-92.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMI00GCE4RJKO@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 19:43:17 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 19:42:35 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Moon and bamboo, grafting + opposition with saturn In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2650 >Dear Guillermo, > > In reply to your admirable persistant questioning:- > > >>But, there were three diferent issues here. >> >>1.- Why would any one want to cut bamboo in full moon, claiming it will >>keep better ? > >I do not know. > For building purposes I would have cut it towards a Winter Full >Moon and,and if I had the option, in a descending cycle, if also I had an >extra extra option - apogee too! > For immediate consumption purposes (shoots) I would go for the Full >Moon and so called expanding cycles. >> >>2.- Thanks on the issue on grafting, that you have address in full detail here. > In addition to Glenn sensible reply I would add to beware of the >Full Moon towards perigee especially when conditions are already wet. There >will be an excess of growth/fertility forces bringing up fungi out of its >realm to rise up into the plant. Of course you can balance this with preps >but one needs to be aware of what the tendency is towards. > >>3.- How can I easily calculate the moon saturn opposition. Acording to >>P.Proctor, this opposition (using it to transplant and sowing seed) is one >>that promotes balance of forces which translates in healthy and higly >>tolerant plants (he also mentions that the effect of the full moon, will >>indeed promote germination but will produce watery and leggy plants) >> >>I will appreciate you comments on this, specially on how to calculate the >>opposition. Does it happen everyt 28 days ? or is there something else to >>consider ? > > I think first off observation is important. Get to know where >Saturn is and what he looks like. By definition in opposition they are >opposite each other. When one sets the other is rising and vice versa. To >get the exact time of opposition you will need a BD calendar or >ephemeris.Saturm / Moon opposition takes place every 27.34 days. > re watery & leggy plants - I think it is too simplistic just to >look at Full Moon. One needs to strive for a more wholistic picture. >Consider the balance of lunar expanding and contracting cycles, inner and >outer planets and moisture and soil conditions to start with. > > These sorts of things and a lot more are available in my book >"Betwixt Heaven & Earth". The book does not aim to be a recipe book for BD >practices (we all still need to research a lot more). It aims to strive >towards a deepening of our pictures and understanding of BD and astronomy. >More information will be on my website to be released in the next few days. >I have also written and compiled the BD planting guide - "Antipodean Astro >Calendar" since 1985. > >Regards Brian Keats. Dear Brian: Your post is a confirmation that perseverance pays. Many thanks. Please tell us the full reference for your book and your calendar and where to get it, as well as the URL of your web page when it is up and running. Many thanks again and warm greetings (ps. I am curious, where are you from ?) Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 21:56:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04146 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 21:56:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06968; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 21:51:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06885 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 21:50:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.139] (pm3shep1-163-38.intrepid.net [209.190.163.38]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA14787; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 21:54:14 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 21:51:27 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: AGNIHORTA: 24 kt. gold plated Yantrams Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2651 We have gold plated Yantrams and gold plated copper chains. The Yantrams are the same ones charged by ancient methods to infuse them with Prana (life energy). Many people have gotten relief from pain with these Yantrams as they harmonize the energy flow in the body. The Yantrams are $30, the chains $20. Two sets can be purchased for $95.00. Three gold Yantrams will be $85.00. Shipping in the U.S. is $5.00 -Priority mail. 80 % of the funds from these items will be used for the Fivefold Path work in South America and elswhere. Wishing you a peaceful Holiday season, and a New Year filled with Light, Love and spiritual prosperity. Richard Powers > copworks@summit.net > Copperworks > Rt. 8, Box 365, Madison, Virginia 22727 U.S.A. > (540) 948-5463 > Visit our website at http://www.summit.net/home/agnihotra > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 22:20:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04921 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:20:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA08834; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:14:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08603 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:12:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.139] (pm3shep1-163-38.intrepid.net [209.190.163.38]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA19771 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:15:42 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <384F3BF8.7FE@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:14:09 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Johnny's Selected Seeds Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2652 >IMO this is a big step in the right direction, even more so, in >comparisson to Rob Johnston last year's uncompromised position. I >celebrate that this tendency against GMO is becoming stronger among people >and business. > >I wanted to post this to the list in recognition to a good business >decision and ethical behaviour, just as I did posted last year stating my >opposition to the posibility of Jonhnny's marketing GMO's. I have no >other relationship to Johnny's than being an ocasional customer. What say, Guillermo? You can buy from Johnny's down there but not from Amazon? Harumph indeed!! Thanks for taking the time to post this info about Johnny's and the Pure Seed initiaive. I was getting around to it, but it was hard making the space on the disk for the OCR to cook with. Unfortunately, Guillermo, I feel that your optimism regarding Rob Johnson is misplaced. He makes a point of pointing to his website where he gives his position in depth. His position remains much as it was last year: the burden of proof is upon the Luddites who would hamper the march of progress. Such Luddites are branded as superstitious, and so forth. (This could have all changed since the last time I looked at the Johnny's site, however!!) The PURE SEED initiative was cooked up by people like Shepherd Ogden of Cooks Seeds to smoke out seedsmen like Mr Johnson who were willing to sell organic but play both sides of the fence. After spending some time in California with Shep and finding out that Rob either signed the PURE SEED thing or didn't, I called Johnny's to find out. Everyone I talked to said "Oh, you'll have to talk to Rob on that one" I only got voice mail at Rob's number and NEVER got a return call. The PURE SEED initiative that finally came out in the catalog only tells part of the story. What it tells us is that Rob holds making money above even his own ideals. What the webpage tells me is that Rob, unlike people like Shep Ogden, does not find frankenseed to be reprehensible. That said, I guess it's ok to keep wearing that Johnny's cap in public places. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 9 22:20:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04938 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:20:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA08869; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:14:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08608 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:12:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.139] (pm3shep1-163-38.intrepid.net [209.190.163.38]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA19792 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:15:45 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0.6e3ce801.2581b313@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:18:14 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: ADMIN:"Painlessly" Supporting BD Now! Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2653 >My family and I would be interested in participating in an apprenticeship >program such as the one you mentioned. We are financially sound (retired >Army) and would value the experience to use to establish our own organic farm >in the future. What are you talking about? The Missouri apprentice program? And what's your name, rank and rating while we're at it? (Always a good thing to include in your email messages!!) Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 10 00:45:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09958 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:45:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA21821; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:40:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA21502 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:36:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.159] (du-148-233-78-159.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMI00EN8FJE8U@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 23:35:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 23:30:40 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Johnny's Selected Seeds In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <384F3BF8.7FE@xtra.co.nz> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id AAA21577 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2654 >What say, Guillermo? You can buy from Johnny's down there but not from >Amazon? Harumph indeed!! > >Thanks for taking the time to post this info about Johnny's and the Pure >Seed initiaive. I was getting around to it, but it was hard making the >space on the disk for the OCR to cook with. > >Unfortunately, Guillermo, I feel that your optimism regarding Rob Johnson >is misplaced. He makes a point of pointing to his website where he gives >his position in depth. His position remains much as it was last year: the >burden of proof is upon the Luddites who would hamper the march of >progress. Such Luddites are branded as superstitious, and so forth. (This >could have all changed since the last time I looked at the Johnny's site, >however!!) > Dear Allan: As I said, it is a step in the right direction, I hope he keeps the same posture to the end of the road. I am not saying that Mr Johnston did it out of his own, in fact I think his change of heart is a good example of what concerned customers and opposition letters can do to change things around. And yes I do buy from Johnny's but not from Amazon, the only difference is that I do not need to smuggle books into Mexico and therefore I have to rely on the slow postal services or pay a hefty price for DHL, UPS, or whatever. By the way, I always need US seed carriers coming into Mexico, any candidates ? Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 10 02:27:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA13789 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 02:27:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA28824; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 02:22:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA28621 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 02:21:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d152.infoserve.net [199.175.157.152]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA00592 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 23:27:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003201bf42e0$4a64f0e0$989dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF/ labelling of GE food / Fw: [Fwd: [Fwd: Action: NOUVELLES - NEWS]] Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 23:29:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002F_01BF429D.3AFB2720" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2655 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BF429D.3AFB2720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Ferdinand Vondruska To: Bennet Doris ; Boitier Dany ; Brett Beatrice ; Chiapolini Renzo ; Dupuis, Linda ; Eterman Matheis ; Eterman, Marjin ; Ferguson Andrew ; Ferguson Jane ; Forstbauer Mary ; Frankenberg Joe Von ; Gauthier Maurice ; Gotz Max ; Hall Ted ; Heintzmann Patricia ; Hesket David ; Hill-Davie Kolly ; Jans William ; Jenny Tobias ; Kalchhauser Louis ; Kalve Voctors ; Kohlbrenner Bogomil ; Lampson Bjorn ; Lampson Olaf ; Lange Bronwyn ; Liebrecht Hubertus ; Meyer Thomas ; Mitchell Sarah ; Neufeld Linda ; Neufeld Linda ; On Line Farms, Mr. Lang Price ; Rachel Dean ; Roboz, Michael ; Ross Gordon ; Rothe Martin ; Runnals, Chris ; Saradoff Lucia ; Schulte-Schroeer Helga ; Semancik Andrew ; Smedley Eric ; Speck, Mr Peter ; Spitzer Peter ; Stetler Ian ; Taylor Rita ; Thomas Andy ; Tulloch Les ; Vogel Delmar ; von Gunten, Ms. Beth ; Walsh Herb ; Waters Alison & Toni ; Wilkinson Bruce <19c@msn.com>; Wodraska Woody ; Wollenheit Wolfram & Sybille ; WWOOF Canada Vanden Heuvel, John ; Young, Connie (Dardy) ; Zirkwitz Conrad ; Vondruska Christian ; Vondruska Martin & Barb ; Vondruska Vanessa Date: Thursday, December 09, 1999 10:47 PM Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Action: NOUVELLES - NEWS]] > > >-- This WEBSITE may interest you as it has excellent info on foodstuff. >Regards Ferdinand > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > >C-DAR HOUSE: a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest >into an >understanding of its soul through the arts. Fax: 604 898-1512, Phone: >604-898-9101, >Website: www.c-dar.com > > ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BF429D.3AFB2720 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Description: [Fwd: Action: NOUVELLES - NEWS] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by cheddar (mbox ferdy) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Thu Dec 9 20:14:05 1999) X-From_: DAMISAST@telus.net Thu Dec 09 10:52:26 1999 Received: from smtpout.telus.net ([207.194.28.79]) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 11w8fx-0001k8-00 for ferdy@direct.ca; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:52:25 -0800 Received: from telus.net (nvcr01m07-10.bctel.ca [209.53.245.10]) by smtpout.telus.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA06062 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:52:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <384FF8FF.6DA74E3C@telus.net> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 10:46:24 -0800 From: Hirschnitz Brown X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FerdyVondruska Subject: [Fwd: Action: NOUVELLES - NEWS] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2DF46A0DE9CA1B2681057C1C" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2DF46A0DE9CA1B2681057C1C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Ferdy, you probably have a large number of correspondents who would welcome the opportunity to participate in this survey.... Regards, M --------------2DF46A0DE9CA1B2681057C1C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from web2.bc.sympatico.ca. (web2 [207.194.28.173]) by nfs1-1.bctel.ca (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA15737 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:18:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from edtnps03.telusplanet.net (edtnps03.telusplanet.net [198.161.157.97]) by web2.bc.sympatico.ca. (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA04590 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:18:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailserv.mondata.com ([207.179.131.4]:4950 "EHLO mailserv.mondata.com") by edtnps03.telusplanet.net with ESMTP id ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:13:52 -0700 Received: by mailserv.mondata.com from localhost (router,SLMail V2.7); Wed, 08 Dec 1999 17:36:59 -0400 To: Multiple recipients of list action Sender: owner-action@mondata.com Reply-To: "Action" X-Sender: "Inbox" X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 17:36:56 -0400 From: "Action Publique - Public Action" Subject: Action: NOUVELLES - NEWS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <19991208173657.ce8b7e25.in@mailserv.mondata.com> X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Cher membre / Dear Member:

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Redirected by the NBEN/Redirig=E9 par le RENB
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>Subject: CBC Marketplace -- Important survey on GE labelling
>
>Subject: FW: Very Important
>Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:07:57 -0500
Please pass this to everyone concerned about genetically engineered food!
>
>Last night on CBC Marketplace - a piece aired on GE food - in particular it
>looked at 'voluntary' labelling - and exposed it for the sham it is!.
>
>At the conclusion of the excellent broadcast - CBC asked Canadians to go to
>their website (see address below) and partipate in their labelling survey.
>Basically, they want to know if people think labelling of GE food should be
>necessary - or just voluntary (what Monsanto wants)!
>
>Please take 45 seconds and particpate in the survey. It can be found at ....
>
>http://cbc.ca/marketplace/
FALLS BROOK CENTRE
125 South Knowlesville Road
Knowlesville, New Brunswick
Canada E7L 1B1
Tel: 506 375 8143
Fax: 506 375 4221
email: fbcja@web.net
http://www.web.net/~fbcja


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Comite contre les mega porcheries
Committee Against Hog Factories

--------------2DF46A0DE9CA1B2681057C1C-- ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BF429D.3AFB2720-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 10 08:03:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20205 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:03:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA15949; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 07:58:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA15761 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 07:54:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.139] (pm3shep1-163-53.intrepid.net [209.190.163.53]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA21251 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 07:58:10 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <384F3BF8.7FE@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 07:57:16 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Johnny's Selected Seeds Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2656 >Dear Allan: > >As I said, it is a step in the right direction, I hope he keeps the same >posture to the end of the road. I am not saying that Mr Johnston did it >out of his own, in fact I think his change of heart is a good example of >what concerned customers and opposition letters can do to change things >around. > >And yes I do buy from Johnny's but not from Amazon, the only difference is >that I do not need to smuggle books into Mexico and therefore I have to >rely on the slow postal services or pay a hefty price for DHL, UPS, or >whatever. By the way, I always need US seed carriers coming into Mexico, >any candidates ? > > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Dear Guillermo - I was saying that he DID NOT have a CHANGE of HEART but, instead, had a change of policy, making a point of pointing readers to an e-essay on where his values really lie. Uncompromised to the very end... For moving seeds across the border, contact Howard Shapiro. He has the licensing and maintains a seed 'safehouse' in Mexico City and other locations. AND, he has offered to perform such a service. (And, no, he wasn't working with Mennonites until recently.) -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 10 08:59:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21300 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:59:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA19348; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:54:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA19187 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:51:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.139] (pm3shep1-163-53.intrepid.net [209.190.163.53]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA31705 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:55:01 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:57:56 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: BD Now! / Amazon link Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2657 Dear Friends - Please tell me how this 'sig ad' looks. (The link to the BD Now! benifiting AMAZON.com search engine should be visible below.) Remember: if you buy just $200 worth of book and records each month from AMAZON.com, you've painlessly paid for your montly dues!! :-) I'll try to post information on how well this fundraising drive is doing later today. (In short: not too well! But great thanks to you who have taken the time to post your checks and what not. ) Thanks -Allan Balliett ============================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing the highest quality food and medicinal crops to promote human wellness and development. A PAINLESS WAY to SUPPORT RESTORATIVE AGRICULTURE EDUCATION on the WEB ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can help defray the costs of supporting BD Now! by making your book or music purchases from AMAZON.COM through the search engine at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/search.html Every purchase you make at amazon.com, if you enter through the above link, earns BD Now! a 5 percent 'dividend' at absolutely no cost to you!! Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, please contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com To UnSubscribe to BD Now!, send 'unsubscribe bdnow' in the body of a message to listproc@envirolink.org (you must send the msg from the email address you subscribed from!) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 10 10:00:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22510 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 10:00:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24873; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 09:55:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (dfprxy01.prodigy.net.mx [148.235.168.40] (may be forged)) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24521 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 09:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.196] (du-148-233-78-196.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMJ00LN45EFRF@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:54:19 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:43:00 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Johnny's Selected Seeds In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <384F3BF8.7FE@xtra.co.nz> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2658 >>Dear Allan: >> >>As I said, it is a step in the right direction, I hope he keeps the same >>posture to the end of the road. I am not saying that Mr Johnston did it >>out of his own, in fact I think his change of heart is a good example of >>what concerned customers and opposition letters can do to change things >>around. >> >>And yes I do buy from Johnny's but not from Amazon, the only difference is >>that I do not need to smuggle books into Mexico and therefore I have to >>rely on the slow postal services or pay a hefty price for DHL, UPS, or >>whatever. By the way, I always need US seed carriers coming into Mexico, >>any candidates ? >> >> >>Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >>Comala, Colima, MEXICO >> > >Dear Guillermo - > >I was saying that he DID NOT have a CHANGE of HEART but, instead, had a >change of policy, making a point of pointing readers to an e-essay on where >his values really lie. Uncompromised to the very end... > >For moving seeds across the border, contact Howard Shapiro. He has the >licensing and maintains a seed 'safehouse' in Mexico City and other >locations. AND, he has offered to perform such a service. (And, no, he >wasn't working with Mennonites until recently.) > >-Allan interesting to know, I will contact Howard, thanks for the info Allan Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 10 11:57:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25055 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:57:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08937; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:53:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08795 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:52:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.202.116]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.167.16); Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:55:41 +0000 Message-ID: <000401bf432f$97332aa0$74ca2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: Re: OFF: Democracy vs Nazism (was Seattle: Reports... ) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:56:27 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2659 Dear Hugh - yes, I can't help but agree with much of what you say. Initially, I was responding to a post which seemed to imply that England (=Britain?) is a police state in contrast to other nations (including the USA?). And yes, I have little trust in politicians of either colour/quadruped (present correspondents omitted, of course - not the same colour and what's your quadruped?). Many of your points are, of course, very relevant to bio-dynamic agriculture, as was a lot of the Seattle protest. Certainly, the repression of that protest seems to have been almost worthy of the Nazis. On a lighter note, "laws of our ancestors" may not always be to our disadvantage. We have kept Cavalier King Charles spaniels for several generations (theirs) now; because they were the favoured pets of (indeed) King Charles, he had a law enacted that excluded them from any regulations relating to dogs. Theoretically, "No Dogs" signs do not apply to our dogs. So far as I know, the law has never been repealed. I've never thought that it would be worth the resulting hassle to test this out. I have the depressing thought that nothing we do, good or bad, will matter a toss in 100 years' time (unless, of course, humankind actually manages to destroy Earth and all that's on it before then). Best, Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 10 14:01:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28323 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:01:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26317; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:55:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26050 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:52:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.202] (du-148-233-78-202.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMJ00A0LDC53U@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:45:54 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:45:14 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: OFF: Democracy vs Nazism (was Seattle: Reports... ) In-reply-to: <000401bf432f$97332aa0$74ca2cc3@m00q6c00> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id NAA26062 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2660 > I have the depressing thought that nothing we do, good or bad, will >matter a toss in 100 years' time (unless, of course, humankind actually >manages to destroy Earth and all that's on it before then). > Best, Tony N-S. Hey Tony: Depressing thought indeed, IMHO what ever we do have consequences now and in a 100 years, that is why we have the capacity to discern and choose our actions (and our thoughts as well). At the end, as the Buddhist claim, the only thing that you can not avoid is (spiritual) growth. If you think about it, even the murder of Christ turned out to be an splendorous opportunity for human kind. A few years ago I read an article entitled: "The Fourth Wave: A Normative Forecast for the Future of "SpaceShip Earth":by Oliver W. Markley from Studies of the Future Program and Institute for Futures Research University of Houston, where the author states that the fourth wave, the fourth shifting human paradigma will be the unification of counciousness. Being this the only solution for the many problems that we face today, and which seems to have no clear answers. It maked sense to me and still does, IMO, it is the only way to end the power strugles between Monsanto and the Environmentalists, the Russians vs the Chechenians, ..... brother vs brother. In a sense caring for the environment and for other sentient beings (including the vegetal kingdom) is a right move for us since it expands our natural egocentristic tendency, but the real work is within, expanding our capacity to unite with all human. Oh well, just a thought Cheers. (ps. and no dear Allan, I am not naive, at the end we will make peace with Monsanto) Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 10 14:05:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28392 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:05:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26883; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:00:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from hawaii.rr.com (hnlmail3.hawaii.rr.com [24.25.227.37]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26296 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:55:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from phyl ([24.94.79.93]) by hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:58:39 -1000 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991210054141.00cf5800@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 05:46:45 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: Re: Full Moon Solstice In-Reply-To: <19991207.201011.3446.4.Dirkers@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1106943==_.ALT" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2661 --=====================_1106943==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear Friends, Here's someone else's post about this years winter solstice moon. --Phyl This year will be the first full Moon to occur on the winter solstice, Dec.22, commonly called the first day of winter. Since a full Moon on the winter solstice occurred in conjunction with a lunar perigee (point in the Moon's orbit that is closest to Earth) the Moon will appear about 14% larger than it does at apogee (the point in it's elliptical orbit that is farthest from the Earth). And since the Earth is also several million miles closer to the Sun at this time of the year than in the summer, sunlight striking the Moon is about 7% stronger making it brighter. Also, this will be the closest perigee of the Moon of the year since the Moon's orbit is constantly live, it is believed that even car headlights will be superfluous. On December 21, 1866, the Lakota Sioux took advantage of this combination of occurrences and staged a devastating retaliatory ambush on soldiers in the Wyoming Territory. In laymen's terms it will be a super bright full Moon, much more than the usual AND it hasn't happened this way for 133 years! Our ancestors 133 years ago saw this. Our descendants 100 or so years from now will see this again. I hope someone else might find this interesting! Remember this will happen December 22, 1999....... Moon shadow, moon shadow... --=====================_1106943==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dear Friends, Here's someone else's post about this years winter solstice moon. --Phyl

This year will be the first full Moon to occur on the winter solstice, Dec.22, commonly called the first day of winter. Since a full Moon on the winter solstice occurred in conjunction with a lunar perigee (point in the Moon's orbit that is closest to Earth) the Moon will appear about 14% larger than it does at apogee (the point in it's elliptical orbit that is farthest from the Earth). And since the Earth is also several million miles closer to the Sun at this time of the year than in the summer, sunlight striking the Moon is about 7% stronger making it brighter. Also, this will be the closest perigee of the Moon of the year since the Moon's orbit is constantly live, it is believed that even car headlights will be superfluous.

On December 21, 1866, the Lakota Sioux took advantage of this combination of occurrences and staged a devastating retaliatory ambush on soldiers in the Wyoming Territory.

In laymen's terms it will be a super bright full Moon, much more than the usual AND it hasn't happened this way for 133 years! Our ancestors 133 years ago saw this.

Our descendants 100 or so years from now will see this again. I hope someone else might find this interesting! Remember this will happen December 22, 1999.......

Moon shadow, moon shadow...
--=====================_1106943==_.ALT-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 10 15:21:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00227 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04496; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:15:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04074 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:11:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from micron - 63.17.183.235 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:14:59 -0800 Message-ID: <001901bf434b$5798c0a0$ebb7113f@micron> From: "Wells" To: References: Subject: Re: Maria Thun/Stella Natura Wall Calendar Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:15:44 -0800 Organization: Microsoft Corporation X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2662 I just received a Stella Natura Calendar for 2000 and it shows the monthly(daily per month) days for fruit, flower,root,leaf. Is that what you mean? ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 5:53 AM Subject: Re: Maria Thun/Stella Natura Wall Calendar > (I don't think I made this clear originally. These calendars are CHARTS or > POSTERS that put all of the information on one sheet.) > > > Has anyone seen one of these for the year 2000? I understand that they are > being marketed in the UK. What it does is allow you to look at the entire > year at one time, so that patterns like Guillermo has asked about stand out > more readily. > > The same designer has made a companion planting chart that was demonstrated > at the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference. > > I'm very interested to know if anyone has seen one of the planting calendars. > > Thanks > > -Allan Balliett > igg@igg.com > > > > =========================================================================== > > BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, > dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food > that promotes human wellness and development. > > Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ > > > To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to > > listproc@envirolink.org > > In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): > > subscribe bdnow > > If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com > > a message to listproc@envirolink.org > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 10 16:26:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01750 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:26:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11077; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:21:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f183.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.183]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA10962 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:20:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 74148 invoked by uid 0); 10 Dec 1999 21:23:14 -0000 Message-ID: <19991210212314.74147.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.145.207.50 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:23:14 PST X-Originating-IP: [208.145.207.50] From: "Doug & Jay" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Composting Chicken entrils, feathers, skin, heads & feet Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:23:14 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2663 Subject: Composting Chicken entrils, feathers, skin, heads & feet Hello Folks, I am just completing my first season of raising free range chickens. I have just harvested some noisey cockerals and would like to know how to compost their unwanted remains. I would like to do it so that cats, coyotes and other animals do not attempt to dig up the pile. Thanks, Doug Stewart Fairfield, Iowa ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 10 17:13:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA02524 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:13:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16275; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:08:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (dfprxy01.prodigy.net.mx [148.235.168.40] (may be forged)) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15838 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:04:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.155] (du-148-233-78-155.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMJ008SAP4ER3@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:00:35 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:00:07 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Composting Chicken entrils, feathers, skin, heads & feet In-reply-to: <19991210212314.74147.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id RAA15886 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2664 >Subject: Composting Chicken entrils, feathers, skin, heads & feet > >Hello Folks, > >I am just completing my first season of raising free range chickens. >I have just harvested some noisey cockerals and would like to know how to >compost their unwanted remains. I would like to do it so that cats, coyotes >and other animals do not attempt to dig up the pile. > >Thanks, >Doug Stewart >Fairfield, Iowa > Dear Doug: Just yesterday I was giving info to some students from the local agriculture technical high school about composting chicken waste and carcass. The info I have is on the NRAES "On Farm Composting Handbook", ISBN 0-935817-19-0 Avail from Cornell Coop. Extension. (nraes@cornell.edu) but was originated by Coop Ext, Univ of Delaware and University of Maryland. It basically says that you can combine litter (droppings), bedding material (straw, wood chips,..) and dead birds, in layers, within a covered wood bin. (volume proportions 2:1:1 to obtain a C-N ratio of 20:1-25:1) They mention that you should at least turn the compost once at ten days and that the process will be completed in 20 days,resulting in total degradation of soft tissue and that only bones and feather shafts remain. The article has a detailed diagram of the covered bins in case you want to build one in order to avoid the animals you mentioned in your post. Hope this helps (ps. are you related to MIU ?) Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 10 17:28:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA02767 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:28:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA17714; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:23:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17281 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:19:42 -0500 (EST) From: HMSTDFRMS@aol.com Received: from HMSTDFRMS@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.0.67c32335 (306) for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:22:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.67c32335.2582d736@aol.com> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:22:46 EST Subject: Re: Composting Chicken entrils, feathers, skin, heads & feet To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2665 We raise about 1000 pastured chickens yearly, and compost all the waste. We bury it deeply into one of our "hot" compost piles. It is covered well and decomposes completely in several weeks during our northern summer and early fall. We have had no problems with coyotes or domestic dogs digging. In my opinion, this is one of the many great benefits of raising and processing on the farm. All by-products are returned to the farm, along with wonderfully improved soil! Linda Homestead Farms From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 10 18:33:14 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03864 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:33:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA22094; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:28:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from web216.mail.yahoo.com (web216.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.116]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21925 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:25:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 4320 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Dec 1999 23:29:14 -0000 Message-ID: <19991210232914.4319.qmail@web216.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.194.109.134] by web216.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:29:14 PST Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:29:14 -0800 (PST) From: "Stephen R. Clarke" Subject: Re: OFF: AGNIHORTA: 24 kt. gold plated Yantrams To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2666 --- Allan Balliett wrote: > We have gold plated Yantrams and gold plated copper > chains. Dear Allan: Unfortunately this is my first post to the BDNOW list since joining and lurking, since I must tell you that I will now be deleting all your mail unread. The good news is that this will simplify my inbox traffic. I don't know what list policy is here, but I have less than no interest in commercial ads for junk jewelry, gold plated or not. If this was a joke, please excuse my lack of humor. No harm done; that's what the delete button is for.... Stephen ===== "Lord, help me to become the kind of person my dog thinks I am." Recent Hits: Movies: Gridlock'd, Run, Lola, Run, Being John Malkovitch, Dark City. Music: Blues for Greenie": Gary Moore, "Avalon": Roxy Music, Quartets Op. 20: Haydn - Quatuor Mosaiques, Rosary Sonatas: Biber - Ronez, "Time Out of Mind": Bob Dylan, "This Time": Los Lobos, "Ribs are Ready": Willy Lomax, "King King": Red Devils, "Complete Bitches Brew Sessions": Miles Davis, "Jazz Samba": Getz, Byrd. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 11 07:40:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12606 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:40:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA26022; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:36:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from earth.ncn.net (root@ncn.net [199.120.120.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA25738 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:31:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dialup153.rolfe.ncn.net [206.72.50.153]) by earth.ncn.net (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA13880 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 06:27:53 -0600 Message-ID: <007901bf43d4$232c5960$993248ce@default> From: "Mike or Mona Majorowicz" To: Subject: Re: BD Now! / Amazon link Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 06:15:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2667 Allan- I tried to make a toy purchase thru your Amazon search link, but was unable to reach my selection. I assume this is because the only catagories you list are books and music. Can you set up links to other catagories besides books & music? Mike Majorowicz -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 7:54 AM Subject: BD Now! / Amazon link >Dear Friends - > >Please tell me how this 'sig ad' looks. (The link to the BD Now! benifiting >AMAZON.com search engine should be visible below.) > >Remember: if you buy just $200 worth of book and records each month from >AMAZON.com, you've painlessly paid for your montly dues!! :-) > >I'll try to post information on how well this fundraising drive is doing >later today. (In short: not too well! But great thanks to you who have >taken the time to post your checks and what not. ) > >Thanks > >-Allan Balliett > > > > >=========================================================================== === > >BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, >dedicated to restoring the earth while producing the highest quality food >and medicinal crops to promote human wellness and development. > >A PAINLESS WAY to SUPPORT RESTORATIVE AGRICULTURE EDUCATION on the WEB >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >You can help defray the costs of supporting BD Now! by making your book or >music purchases from AMAZON.COM through the search engine at > >http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/search.html > >Every purchase you make at amazon.com, if you enter through the above link, >earns BD Now! a 5 percent 'dividend' at absolutely no cost to you!! > >Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ > > >To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to > >listproc@envirolink.org > >In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): > > subscribe bdnow > >If you have any questions, please contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com > >To UnSubscribe to BD Now!, send 'unsubscribe bdnow' in the body of a >message to listproc@envirolink.org (you must send the msg from the email >address you subscribed from!) > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 11 07:40:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12613 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:40:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA25989; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:36:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from earth.ncn.net (root@ncn.net [199.120.120.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA25733 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:31:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dialup153.rolfe.ncn.net [206.72.50.153]) by earth.ncn.net (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA13868 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 06:27:41 -0600 Message-ID: <007801bf43d4$1b374d00$993248ce@default> From: "Mike or Mona Majorowicz" To: Subject: Re: Composting Chicken entrils, feathers, skin, heads & feet Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 06:04:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2668 Fresh manure will cover the scent so scavengers will not dig them up. If you have problems with scavengers, your not burying it deep enough in the pile, or you have too much fluffy stuff in your pile and need to add more manure. I've composted the odd sheep this way and have good luck. Although after I bury a carcass, I leave the pile lay quite awhile, maybe six months, before disturbing it. Lets just say that its probably not appropriate to go into a detailed description of disturbing the pile before that. (yuck.) Mike Majorowicz -----Original Message----- From: Doug & Jay To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 3:24 PM Subject: Composting Chicken entrils, feathers, skin, heads & feet >Subject: Composting Chicken entrils, feathers, skin, heads & feet > >Hello Folks, > >I am just completing my first season of raising free range chickens. >I have just harvested some noisey cockerals and would like to know how to >compost their unwanted remains. I would like to do it so that cats, coyotes >and other animals do not attempt to dig up the pile. > >Thanks, >Doug Stewart >Fairfield, Iowa > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 11 07:54:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12688 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:54:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA26319; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:49:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA26285 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:49:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.139] (pm3shep4-163-190.intrepid.net [209.190.163.190]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA31081 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:52:41 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <007901bf43d4$232c5960$993248ce@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:55:29 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: BD Now! / Amazon link Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2669 >Allan- > >I tried to make a toy purchase thru your Amazon search link, but was unable >to reach my selection. I assume this is because the only catagories you >list are books and music. Can you set up links to other catagories besides >books & music? > >Mike Majorowicz Dear Mike, Earlier I thought it was access to the whole store. It is now my impression that they only give 'dividends' on books and music. I've got a request in with them, but no reply now (over 24hrs) Thanks -Allan ============================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing the highest quality food and medicinal crops to promote human wellness and development. A PAINLESS WAY to SUPPORT RESTORATIVE AGRICULTURE EDUCATION on the WEB ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can help defray the costs of supporting BD Now! by making your book or music purchases from AMAZON.COM through the search engine at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/search.html Every purchase you make at amazon.com, if you enter through the above link, earns BD Now! a 5 percent 'dividend' at absolutely no cost to you!! Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, please contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com To UnSubscribe to BD Now!, send 'unsubscribe bdnow' in the body of a message to listproc@envirolink.org (you must send the msg from the email address you subscribed from!) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 11 09:28:48 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13135 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:28:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29938; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:22:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA29898 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:21:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-164-223-239.s239.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.223.239] helo=erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11wnSL-0006Gy-00; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:25:07 -0500 Message-ID: <38525F02.A1272E00@erols.com> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:26:10 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Composting Chicken entrils, feathers, skin, heads & feet References: <007801bf43d4$1b374d00$993248ce@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2670 Why not burn the sheep in a pyre? The only potential problem is a fire which is not hot enough (or high enough). I have a friend who tried buring a deceased ram. He said it smouldered for three days, and all the neighbors kept on asking him if he was cooking lamb! Anyway, just build that fire higher, and burn away. Call your fire department first to warn them! Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 11 09:56:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13310 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:56:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01119; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:50:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00980 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:47:05 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp235.cy-net.net [208.21.195.44]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10354 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:50:46 -0600 Message-Id: <199912111450.IAA10354@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:50:17 -0600 Subject: For Brian Keats Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2671 Following the moon/bamboo thread 'half heartedly', I came on your post about some additional information on your website, but looking through the original posts, I can't find the url reference. For the benefit of those interested parties, could you post it, please? thanks! Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 11 10:41:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13762 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:41:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03355; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:37:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f68.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.68]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03257 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:34:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 59428 invoked by uid 0); 11 Dec 1999 15:37:52 -0000 Message-ID: <19991211153752.59427.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.145.207.50 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:37:52 PST X-Originating-IP: [208.145.207.50] From: "Doug & Jay" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: MIU Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:37:52 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2672 > >(ps. are you related to MIU ?) > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > Thanks for the info on composting. Yes, I am connected to MIU. I have an MBA from MIU. My son is in 2nd grade at MSAE (the associated elementry school). My wife teaches part time at MSAE. We have a small farm (20 acres) about 5 miles NE of campus. We go to the domes each day to meditate. I came here 18 years ago to work as a landscape architect for the university. In the late 80's I went to the Univ of Iowa, in Iowa City, and got an MA and now work as an accountant with a very succesful nationwide direct marketing discount bookseller, Books Are Fun, that started and has its headquarters here. How do you know about MIU? Many years ago I lived with a Mexican family in Ciudad de Mexico while I studied spanish there. I still enjoy thinking about those times. Doug Stewart Fairfield, Iowa ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 11 13:20:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15402 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:20:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12164; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11690 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:11:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-164-223-239.s239.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.223.239] helo=erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11wr2Y-0005jq-00; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:14:42 -0500 Message-ID: <385294DF.6F4B6776@erols.com> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:15:59 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "BD Now! Listserve" Subject: Bio-Regions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2673 All: A few weeks ago, someone was looking for some info on Bio-Regions. Think I've located my stuff. Now, what was the issue? TIA, Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 11 15:02:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16221 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 15:02:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18988; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 14:58:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18676 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 14:53:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.139] (pm3shep3-163-156.intrepid.net [209.190.163.156]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA26655 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 14:57:01 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <385294DF.6F4B6776@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 14:57:26 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Bio-Regions Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2674 >All: > >A few weeks ago, someone was looking for some info on Bio-Regions. >Think I've located my stuff. Now, what was the issue? > >TIA, > >Robert. Hey, it was me, looking for the bioregion that Claymont is in. Since then, the Forest Service/EPA has gotten hold of me and given me a 'eco-region' for this area. It's called "Central Appalachian." What do you have? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 11 18:51:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17835 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:51:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA01842; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:46:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from fep9.mail.ozemail.net (fep9.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.103]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA01622 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (slmlb30p48.ozemail.com.au [210.84.136.112]) by fep9.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA10460 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 10:46:21 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <01d801bf4496$8f1eb240$708854d2@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: References: Subject: Re: BD Now! / Amazon link Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 22:46:39 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2675 Allan - looks fine, I clicked through to site OK. Thanks Gwenda ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Friday, 10 December 1999 11:57 Subject: BD Now! / Amazon link > Dear Friends - > > Please tell me how this 'sig ad' looks. (The link to the BD Now! benifiting > AMAZON.com search engine should be visible below.) > > Remember: if you buy just $200 worth of book and records each month from > AMAZON.com, you've painlessly paid for your montly dues!! :-) > > I'll try to post information on how well this fundraising drive is doing > later today. (In short: not too well! But great thanks to you who have > taken the time to post your checks and what not. ) > > Thanks > > -Allan Balliett > > > > > ============================================================================ == > > BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, > dedicated to restoring the earth while producing the highest quality food > and medicinal crops to promote human wellness and development. > > A PAINLESS WAY to SUPPORT RESTORATIVE AGRICULTURE EDUCATION on the WEB > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > You can help defray the costs of supporting BD Now! by making your book or > music purchases from AMAZON.COM through the search engine at > > http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/search.html > > Every purchase you make at amazon.com, if you enter through the above link, > earns BD Now! a 5 percent 'dividend' at absolutely no cost to you!! > > Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ > > > To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to > > listproc@envirolink.org > > In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): > > subscribe bdnow > > If you have any questions, please contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com > > To UnSubscribe to BD Now!, send 'unsubscribe bdnow' in the body of a > message to listproc@envirolink.org (you must send the msg from the email > address you subscribed from!) > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 11 20:10:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18251 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 20:10:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05404; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 20:05:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.kin.bc.ca (pop.kin.bc.ca [142.26.201.11]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05365 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 20:05:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [142.26.201.242] ([142.26.201.242] verified) by pop.kin.bc.ca (Stalker SMTP Server 1.5) with ESMTP id S.0000051606 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:29:16 +0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <000201bf3f3d$738f7680$97ca2cc3@m00q6c00> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:33:49 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Harvey Armstrong/Kate O'Keefe/Galen" Subject: Re: OFF: Democracy vs Nazism (was Seattle: Reports... ) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2676 >When you see the degree that both of your parties (or likewise in the US) >endorse the same policy line on world trade and European Union, etc. then >it may dawn on you what a one party state you really live in. The political >debates all focus on paper tigers and there is never any discussion of >meaningful issues such as teaching children learning and thinking skills or >reforming the banking practices so that repayment of loans conforms to >real, physical limitations rather than an openended geometric progression >(called compound interest). > >I see debates in public forums about whether we should train people in >organic farming when we cannot hope to feed the world that way, or whether >it isn't far more compassionate to use all kinds of poisonous and >destructive methods so that everyone will be able to eat. A person >listening to this claptrap is given to assume that organic (or biodynamic) >farming could never hope to feed the world's population and that any >feeling person would consent to the destruction of world agricultural >resources because by some mystical equation this is going to be successful >in feeding everyone. While even hogs would slim down to toothpicks on this >swill, it is offered for public consumption in legislatures and television >talk shows. Hugh, thanks for articulating my concerns so well. Here in Canada we see the government mimicking the Americans every chance they get. Any society whose first priority is the accumulation of money and possessions is doomed. When I was younger I was told that I was simply being paranoid to think that governmental policy and politics were fixed by shadowy figures in the background, but now I believe these shadowy figures to be the rich. Harvey From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 11 21:20:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18629 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 21:20:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09262; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 21:15:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09147 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 21:13:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca102.vthokies.net [206.153.172.102]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA28425 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 21:10:22 -0500 Message-ID: <004401bf4447$09f6cfc0$66ac99ce@4l43e> From: "714" To: References: <01bf4062$8c7f7840$5a1bd1cd@default> Subject: Re: Off/ RS 3-fold lecture Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 20:00:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2677 ----- Original Message ----- From: manfred palmer To: Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 10:24 PM Subject: Re: Off/ RS 3-fold lecture > Thank you Malcolm for the correct number.[ 338] > > I'm searching this text for our local BD newsletter editor who assumed > that it might be in English by now .......as well as for our still-forming, > agri-based community's current dialogue on our own governance. When I read > "3-fold", I also made the assumption of implicit relevance. I do realize > that this presupposes sufficient acquaintance with the rest of R.S. werke, > and we are resolved to do this. > Can you shed any light on this?....... greatly appreciated, as most > involved do not speak German. .........manfred palmer Dear Manfred, If you are working on questions of community self-governance, you might do well to read Steiner's early essay, "Anthroposophy and the Social Question" (Mercury Press), another translation of which is listed as "Spiritual Science and the Social Question" in the collection entitled "Reincarnation and Immortality" (Rudolf Steiner Publications). However, rather than trying to read many more of Steiner's other works on the social question, I think it might be more efficient for you to read a thoughtful summary of his thinking by a contemporary author. There are not many such summaries in English, but an excellent one is by Gary Lamb in the journal The Threefold Review: "Going beyond Self-Interest in Economic Life: Part 1 Rudolf Steiner's Indications on the Ownership and Use of Land and Other Means of Production" (Issue #13, Winter/Spring 1996), and "Part 2: Rudolf Steiner's Indications on Economic Associations" (Issue #15, Summer/Fall 1997). These back issues are still available from the publisher for $3.95 each, or $2.00 each with a four-issue subscription ($17.00): The Threefold Review, P.O. Box 6, Philmont, NY 12565, USA. Yours, Malcolm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 12 07:02:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA21623 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 07:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA04717; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 06:57:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA04662 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 06:56:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-253.s253.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.253] helo=erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11x7en-0003rw-00; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 06:59:18 -0500 Message-ID: <38538E61.601C0E03@erols.com> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 07:00:33 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Johnny's Selected Seeds References: <384F3BF8.7FE@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2678 Good morning, Guillermo! Try this fellow for seeds: J.L. Hudson, Seedsman Star Route 2, Box 337 La Honda, CA 94020 Mr. Hudson has the *finest* collection of traditional and heirloom seeds I've ever seen; his catalog is a fascinating read; and he has a wonderful collection of seeds from the Zapotec Indians in Oaxaca. BTW, I'd really appreciate some pepper seeds from down your way! Robert the Chile Man From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 12 07:44:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA21775 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 07:44:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA06728; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 07:39:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA06629 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 07:36:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-253.s253.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.253] helo=erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11x8IC-0005a2-00; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 07:40:00 -0500 Message-ID: <385397EB.31DDE6D7@erols.com> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 07:41:15 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Bio-Regions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2679 Allan: Well, if you saw Lon Rombough's post on OGL, you'll see that WV is in the Ohio River Basin/Valley. The Planet Drum Foundation (where the bio-regional movement started, with Peter Berg and Gary Snyder) confirms this. I see nothing in the Planet Drum literature I have which talks about the Central Appalachian Region. (BTW, I would have thought it the Shenandoah Bio-Region.) Perhaps you can call or write Planet Drum. Their particulars (based on my info from 1995) are: Box 31251 Shasta Bio-Region San Francisco, CA 94131 Please keep us posted on where this ends up! Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 12 08:21:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21944 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:21:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07814; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:16:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07739 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:13:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.63] (pm3shep1-163-63.intrepid.net [209.190.163.63]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA16118 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:17:34 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <385397EB.31DDE6D7@erols.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:20:29 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Bio-Regions Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2680 Robert - Via email discussions through the net, Planet Drum only offered to SELL me information. The name of the bio-region is not so important to me. What is important is that other people know what I'm talking about when I say I'm serving the Central Appalacian Eco-Region. I'm in the eastern panhandle of West Virginia, in the Shenandoah Valley. We drain to the Shenandoah, which runs to the Potomac when runs to the Bay in pretty short order. There are two West Virginias: the Eastern Panhandle, and that area 'west of I-81' (only culturally accurate). I really can't imagine the eastern Panhandle being in the Ohio River Basin/Valley, while I can easily imagine the (w)rest of us being in that classification. At one point I was told by an authroity on local ecology that this was the 'Upper Shenandoah Valley' bio-region, but i have found no substantiation for that, either. I'll look at the EPA maps and see where you fit. Thanks -Allan Balliett >Allan: > >Well, if you saw Lon Rombough's post on OGL, you'll see that WV is in >the Ohio River Basin/Valley. The Planet Drum Foundation (where the >bio-regional movement started, with Peter Berg and Gary Snyder) confirms >this. > >I see nothing in the Planet Drum literature I have which talks about >the Central Appalachian Region. (BTW, I would have thought it the >Shenandoah Bio-Region.) > >Perhaps you can call or write Planet Drum. Their particulars (based on >my info from 1995) are: > >Box 31251 >Shasta Bio-Region >San Francisco, CA 94131 > >Please keep us posted on where this ends up! > >Robert. =================================================================== SUBSCRIBE to Our Hot Release Information Lists! Know the latest releases!! Get the BEST prices!! TORI AMOS LIST: igg@igg.com SUBJECT=SUBSCRIBE TORI-L You MUST include your FULL NAME and SHIPPING ADDRESS in the body of the message New Arrival/PRe-Order/ SALE Lists: igg@igg.com SUBJECT=SUBSCRIBE IGG-L ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CUSTOMER SERVICE: maura@intrepid.net Please Check Home Page for latest lists and info! http://www.igg.com =================================================================== How To Order Information: http://igg.com/howtoorder.html How To Pre-Order Information http://igg.com/HowToP.html =================================================================== INTERGALACTIC GARAGE Compact Disks and WorldWide Music Collectibles POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 (304) 876-2373 Email = igg@igg.com HOME PAGE: http://www.igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 12 10:31:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22586 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 10:31:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13433; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 10:26:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13127 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 10:21:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.201.34]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.117.11); Sun, 12 Dec 1999 15:25:13 +0000 Message-ID: <004b01bf44b5$4fa5d2a0$27062cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: Re: OFF: Democracy vs Nazism (was Seattle: Reports... ) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 15:26:03 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2681 Yeah, well, Guillermo: I was just getting all cynical from thinking too much about politicians. Thanks for bringing me back to a moderately even keel. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 12 10:35:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22618 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 10:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13664; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 10:31:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13548 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 10:28:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from 209.143.11.15 (hils-ras1-1-cs-12.dial.bright.net [209.143.11.15]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id KAA14867 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 10:31:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3853BC42.277E@bright.net> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 10:16:16 -0500 From: Marilyn Hiestand Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Bio-Regions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2682 The winter issue of Ohio Lndscapes put out by the Nature Conservancy describes ecoregions. The western part of West Virginia is named the Western Allegheny Plateau, but the article doesn't describe the eastern half. The author states that there are 64 ecoregions in the US. The regions are based on the climate, vegetation, and geological features of the regions.I'm sure the Ohio Chapter would provide more info if you wanted. Phone-614-717-2770, web site www.tnc.org. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 12 12:55:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25090 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 12:55:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21443; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 12:51:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21241 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 12:46:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.63] (pm3shep3-163-155.intrepid.net [209.190.163.155]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20031 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 12:50:22 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 12:45:42 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: WTO Response by authoritiesSEATTLE Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2683 Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon I find the response to the actions of the police at the WTO saddening. I lived in Berkeley in the 60s. The actions taken by the police in Seattle are typical. Not extraordinary, not even unusual - typical, common, everyday actions in virtually every police force in this country. Everyday. What is unusual is that they were taken in front of cameras and against middle-class citizens. The victims are usually marginalized people: the poor, the homeless, the unemployed. It is sad, but what I find saddest of all is that most of us are so unaware of day-to-day activity by our local police that we find these actions suprising. The nature of police forces is to use force against selected victims. That's why we call them police forces, not the police assistance society. They serve those in power, who desire to suppress challenges to that power. The police were used to suppress labor organizers in the early decades of this century (anti-american anarchists!), they were used to supress the populist movement of the 40's and 50's (populist=communist, right?), they were used to supress the free speech movement (ah, those damned commies again!), they were used to supress the the civil rights movement (now it's those fag commies!), they were used to suppress agitation against the Viet Nam war (sorry, Viet Nam police action - we never actually declared war), they are used to create and carry out the war on drugs (but only in inner cities, though most illigal drugs are used in suburbs). But remember that they are us. We are all in this together. The police think they are doing the right thing. We need to rehabilitate those of us who are police (just like we need to rehabilitate those of us who farm with chemicals.) We rehabilitate police by rebuilding community, by localizing economies and by empowing individuals. My part of the effort to re-knit community is a CSA farm. We all do the best we can. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon ============================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing the highest quality food and medicinal crops to promote human wellness and development. A PAINLESS WAY to SUPPORT RESTORATIVE AGRICULTURE EDUCATION on the WEB ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can help defray the costs of supporting BD Now! by making your book or music purchases from AMAZON.COM through the search engine at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/search.html Every purchase you make at amazon.com, if you enter through the above link, earns BD Now! a 5 percent 'dividend' at absolutely no cost to you!! Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, please contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com To UnSubscribe to BD Now!, send 'unsubscribe bdnow' in the body of a message to listproc@envirolink.org (you must send the msg from the email address you subscribed from!) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 13 06:46:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA03206 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 06:46:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA25527; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 06:41:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA25313 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 06:36:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-235.s235.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.235] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11xTpd-00056z-00; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 06:39:57 -0500 Message-ID: <3854DB59.C643AE89@erols.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 06:41:13 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Guillermo Romero CC: "BD Now! Listserve" Subject: Re: Johnny's Selected Seeds References: <384F3BF8.7FE@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2684 Guillermo: I will send you an extra catalog when I can get one. I know Mr. Hudson ships internationally, though. So, I'd first give him a try - order a catalog and see if it comes. Yes, Mr. Hudson is completely anti-technology, and believes that digital forms of communication are bad for society (he's not entirely wrong!). He'll certainly never have a Web site. As for me, I'm looking for hot pepper seeds which are native to certain areas. I do grow Pasilla/Poblano, but would certainly love to try a new variety! Thanks for the note - Robert. BTW, if anyone else on the list has unique or exotic peppers seeds, I'd appreciate it if you could spare a few. Just drop me a private note and I'll forward my address. Carol (my wife) and I grew nearly 65 varieties of peppers this year, and picked more than 40,000. I'd like to up that variety count next year to about 100. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 13 15:17:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13129 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:17:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12367; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:12:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11823 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:07:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.161.171]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991213201736.ZITR1928399.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:17:36 +1300 Message-ID: <385552AD.1DBF@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:10:21 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Moon and bamboo, grafting + opposition with saturn References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2685 Guillermo Romero wrote: > Thanks for your answer Glen: > > But, there were three diferent issues here. > > 1.- Why would any one want to cut bamboo in full moon, claiming it will keep better ? No really sure about this. > > 2.- Thanks on the issue on grafting, that you have address in full detail here. > > 3.- How can I easily calculate the moon saturn opposition. Acording to P.Proctor, this opposition (using it to transplant and sowing seed) is one that promotes balance of forces which translates in healthy and higly tolerant plants (he also mentions that the effect of the full moon, will indeed promote germination but will produce watery and leggy plants) Alan Keats makes good points on the Moon Saturn calculation. Getting a free Astrology program would help this too of course. See my earlier post on this matter. Re Proctors remarks on Moon Saturn opposition Yes This aspect does produce stocky plants which are 'highly tolerant' however this stockiness is due to the contractive influences of Saturn working strongly. It should be noted Procotors experience has been usually in drought environments ie Hawkes Bay NZ and laterly India. In these environments I am sure the hardiness of the Moon Saturn plants are a good idea, however I have not seen any data to suggest Moon Sun plants are unhealthy or imbalanced in their growth. In an environemnt such as I live in which is temperate with adequate moisture plants sown at this time grow perfectly well. Big is good. It should also be noted that PP and his followers are the main reporters of 501 sprayed at Moon Saturn opp causing burning. I have never had this experience. Even last season when we had a severe drought and I sprayed 501 which caused serious wilting within minutes of spraying, the plants did not suffer from burning. With some water they bounced right back. My point is the contractive Saturn influences of the Moon/Saturn are enhanced by spraying the contractive 501. So it is to be expected that spraying 501 according to the Moon Saturn opp and not according to need, will eventually cause problems. Having said this my chosen time for 501 is according to the desired constellation. Fire/fruit, Air/flower etc. It should also be noted that Procotor does not see the need for sulphur being applied to the soil, ever, and so their plants may need the extra Saturn hardness to over come the fungal problems caused by low soil sulphur levels. All very complex, but more than most, Proctors comments on almost anything, need to be investigated for their substance and not taken as the apes do. cheers Glen A. > I will appreciate you comments on this, specially on how to calculate the opposition. Does it happen everyt 28 days ? or is there something else to consider ? > > Kind regards > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 13 15:54:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13714 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:54:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16093; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:50:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15895 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:48:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.83] (pm3shep2-163-83.intrepid.net [209.190.163.83]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21812 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:52:20 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:54:42 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Fwd: Rare, animalborne disease a medical mystery Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2686 >X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to >owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f >Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:36:10 -0800 >From: Misha >Subject: Fwd: Rare, animalborne disease a medical mystery >To: SANET-mg >MIME-version: 1.0 >Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu >Precedence: bulk > >Howdy, all-- > >This article appeared in the Boston Globe yesterday. Thought it might >interest. > >peace >m > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >>RE: Globe article by Terry Allen: Rare, animalborne disease a >>medical mystery >> >> >>Boston Globe 12/12/99 >> Rare, animalborne disease a medical mystery >> >> Officials examine Maine deer in hunt for clues >> >> By Terry J. Allen, Globe Correspondent, >> >> New England is entwined in a medical mystery that stretches across >>species and the country. The clues raise more questions than >>answers: Three young people, one with links to Maine, have >>contracted an extremely rare, infectious disease that leads to >>dementia and death. A strikingly similar disease is killing >>thousands of deer and elk in the western United States. Elk farms in >>New England, which cater to an Asian market for aphrodisiacs, are >>importing animals that officials warn could spread the infection. >> >> And in the background looms the specter of mad cow disease, the >>British epidemic responsible for the slaughter of hundreds of >>thousands of cattle, the devastation of the British beef industry, >>and the death, so far, of more than 40 people. >> >> Researchers are struggling to determine if these factors are part >>of the same trail of evidence or if they are connected only by >>coincidence and fear. >> >> Either way, there is no denying that federal researchers are >>worried. How else to explain why a US Department of Agriculture >>official came to Maine last month to supervise a ''harvest'' of 299 >>heads from deer shot during the fall hunting season? ''They used a >>fancy spoon to scoop out a portion near the brain stem for >>analysis,'' said Mark Caron, a Maine wildlife biologist. >> >> The reasoning behind the examination of deer brains? One of the >>young victims of the rare disease who lived in the South had, years >>before her death, eaten meat from deer her father had shot in Maine. >> >> The Maine samples are part of a nationwide investigation into a >>family of diseases called transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, >>or TSE, that do similar damage to the brains of different mammals >>deer, elk, sheep, cattle, cats, mink, and humans. But they are >>subtly different illnesses. And until mad cow disease - the bovine >>TSE - hit Britain and apparently spread to people who ate infected >>beef, most scientists believed TSEs did not jump from one species to >>another. >> >> The possibility that chronic wasting disease the TSE that affects >>deer and elk has made the leap to humans is what had federal >>researchers concerned enough to survey Maine. >> >> The 28yearold woman who ate Maine deer died of CreutzfeldtJakob >>disease the human TSE. There are only five reported CreutzfeldtJakob >>cases per billion worldwide in people 30 years old or under, >>according to Lawrence Schonberger of the federal Centers for Disease >>Control. >> >> Yet, since 1996, CreutzfeldtJakob disease has been detected in >>three Americans in that age group; two are dead and one is dying. >>All three, it turns out, had hunted extensively or eaten venison. >> >> ''It may be a coincidence,'' said Dr. Pierluigi Gambetti, professor >>of pathology and director of the National Prion Disease Pathology >>Surveillance Center at Case Western University in Cleveland, where >>the Centers for Disease Control sends its human brain samples. ''It >>would be imprudent to say there is a danger of an epidemic. But, >>yes, it's something that has to be studied.'' >> >> >> Said Thomas Pringle, a biochemist who runs a Web site on TSEs: >>''What has CDC worried is that the original tipoff in Britain that >>something was wrong was the upsurge in cases of CreutzfeldtJakob >>disease in young people.'' >> >> The CDC medical epidemiologist, Ermias Belay, citing a Red Cross >>survey, emphasized that since 40 percent of Americans have eaten >>wild venison at least once, the three cases could be explained by >>chance alone. ''If there had been one more,'' he said, ''it might >>tip the balance.'' >> >> But, countered Michael Hansen, a research associate at Consumer's >>Union, ''Given how rare the disease is in young people and how >>difficult it is to make a diagnosis, the possibility that some cases >>go undetected cannot be ruled out.'' >> >> That is what nearly happened last year in Utah to Tracie McEwan. >>The young wife and mother of two watched desperately as, over a few >>months, her 28yearold husband, Doug, lost motor control and memory, >>became disoriented, and suffered dramatic mood swings. >> >> ''After doctors performed hundreds of tests,'' Tracie recalled, ''I >>saw a television show about mad cow disease.'' She demanded the >>doctors test for CreutzfeldtJakob disease. A brain biopsy confirmed >>her fears. >> >> ''We have decided to get pretty aggressive, primarily because of >>the situation in Britain,'' said the CDC's Schonberger. He >>emphasized, however, that ''none of the three cases has been linked >>to chronic wasting disease in deer and elk. >> >> While the threat to humans remains theoretical, the danger of the >>disease within deer and elk populations is real and growing. ''It's >>been spreading slowly since it was first found in the wild in >>1981,'' said Beth Williams, a professor of veterinary services with >>the University of Wyoming. Chronic wasting disease is now a major >>problem in Colorado and Wyoming, infecting 4 to 8 percent of the >>62,000 deer there and 1 percent of elk, she said. >> >> In states other than Wyoming and Colorado, tests on 4,500 seemingly >>healthy wild animals have found no evidence of disease, but that >>sampling does not fully allay scientists' concerns. TSEs are caused >>by prions, a puzzling proteinlike substance that is extremely >>difficult to detect or kill. Prions can remain infectious on >>correctly sterilized surgical instruments and have been transmitted >>through corneal transplants, growth hormones, and meat that has been >>thoroughly cooked. >> >> They are also apparently passed among deer and elk by routine kinds >>of contact. Outbreaks of chronic wasting disease have spread among >>farmed elk not only in Colorado and Wyoming, but in other parts of >>the West, forcing the destruction of herds and the quarantining of >>farms. Montana saw its first confirmed case last month. >> >> So far New England appears to be free of the disease, but the >>chance of infection rises with the number of western elk shipped >>east to supply the region's growing elk farming industry. The >>animals are prized for the velvet on their antlers, believed in some >>parts of Asia to be aphrodisiacs. >> >> ''Elk farming is the recipe for introducing CWD into areas where it >>has not existed before,'' said Dr. Victor Nettles, director of the >>Southeastern Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study, referring to >>chronic wasting disease. >> >> ''We are at the extremely initial stage of awareness and >>monitoring,'' warned Robert Deblinger, assistant director of the >>Massachusetts Wildlife Division. ''But states need to be aggressive. >>It's only going to get worse, so it's important to be vigilant. That >>is the only way you keep the diseases out.'' >> >> Of immediate concern to New England's wildlife managers is the >>health of native deer, which support the region's multibilliondollar >>hunting industry. Since there is a two to fiveyear incubation period >>and no reliable test for live animals, apparently healthy elk can >>harbor and spread the disease. >> >> The elktrading network is extensive and loosely regulated. >>Paperwork that accompanies each elk to Vermont, for example, tells >>only where the animal was bought, not where it was a year or even a >>month before. And if the herd it passed through later has an >>outbreak of chronic wasting disease, there are no procedures to >>trace exposed elk or issue warnings. >> >> Vermont, Maine, and New Hampshire have not formally notified elk >>farmers to be on the lookout for neurological symptoms, nor do they >>require reporting of suspicious symptoms. In Vermont, when one of >>the state's 250 captive elk dies, the owner may comply with a >>voluntary program for testing. >> >> ''From the standpoint of protecting wildlife,'' said Steve Weber, >>chief of New Hampshire's Wildlife Division, ''a ban on elk farming >>is the prudent thing to do, but when balanced against existing >>industry, there are tradeoffs you make.'' New Hampshire has a >>handful of elk farms and a few hundred elk, Weber estimated. >> >> So far, Massachusetts is the only New England state to ban elk >>farming. ''Anytime you want to fence in a wild animal it's going to >>get out,'' warned Robert Deblinger, assistant director of the >>Massachusetts Wildlife Division. ''We worry about interbreeding and >>genetic pollution as well as the introduction of chronic wasting >>disease.'' >> >> That infected western elk can transmit TSE to native New England >>deer is established science. The more troubling and as yet unsolved >>mystery is whether, like its bovine counterpart, chronic wasting >>disease can, or has, jumped species to infect humans. >> >>C Copyright 1999 Globe Newspaper Company. >>Terry J. Allens e-mail is > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 13 16:18:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14084 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:18:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18467; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:13:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17988 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:09:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.161.47]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991213211943.ZYCU1928399.mta1-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:19:43 +1300 Message-ID: <3855613C.42B2@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:12:28 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Composting Chicken entrils, feathers, skin, heads & feet References: <19991210212314.74147.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2687 Be sure and spray lots of preps over where you bury the entrails GADoug & Jay wrote: > > Subject: Composting Chicken entrils, feathers, skin, heads & feet > > Hello Folks, > > I am just completing my first season of raising free range chickens. > I have just harvested some noisey cockerals and would like to know how to > compost their unwanted remains. I would like to do it so that cats, coyotes > and other animals do not attempt to dig up the pile. > > Thanks, > Doug Stewart > Fairfield, Iowa > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 14 01:51:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA20314 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 01:51:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA05094; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 01:45:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA04941 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 01:39:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.49]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991214064746.CKMM1752249.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:47:46 +1300 Message-ID: <3855E6E7.5690@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:42:47 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: widespread GE contamination Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2688 Subject: [GE]: widespread GMO contamination Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:46:45 +1300 From: Robert Mann To: Multiple recipients of list ge The biggest scientific society in the world, the American Chemical Society, has recently published this item in its big-circulation weekly _Chemical and Engineering News_. R ....... ENVIRONMENTAL NEWS December 1,1999/ Volume33, Issue23/ pp.484 A-485 A [Environmental ScienCopyright © 1999 American Chemical Society ---------------------------------------------------- Growing evidence of widespread GMO contamination Now that millions of tests have been conducted in response to escalating worldwide concern over genetically modified organisms (GMOs) in food, it is increasingly clear that GMO contamination of conventionally grown food is a serious issue. Ultimately, it may trigger legal action. GMO testing has increased astronomically in recent months, and it now happens "quite often" that farmers are surprised to learn that crops they grew in the United States from non-GMO seeds test positive for GMOs when they reach Europe, said John Fagan, founder of Genetic ID of Fairfield, Iowa. Genetic ID became the world's first laboratory to offer GMO testing in 1996 and now licenses its nearly foolproof method for detecting GMOs, which is based on the "TaqMan" DNA testing technique, to laboratories around the world. [SDI Trait] Nine GMO food crops are currently Strategic Diagnostics' grown in the United low-cost tests provide a States, including fast way to detect GMOs in soybeans, corn, canola, soybeans and corn. Photo tomatoes, and potatoes. courtesy Strategic GMO versions of quite a Diagnostics, Inc. few other crops, most notably wheat, are in the works. The GMOs in most of these crops can only be detected by DNA testing, which must be conducted in a laboratory and costs $200-$400. But Monsanto's Roundup Ready soybeans can also be identified by a $5.75 protein-based test being sold by Strategic Diagnostics Inc. (SDI), of Newark, Del., which produces results in 3-5 minutes. See Table 1, Genetically engineered foods and crops approved for sale in the United States SDI began offering its tests this spring and has already sold millions of them, said Joe Dautlick, the company's marketing manager. By this month, SDI also expects to be offering tests capable of identifying GMO corn. Although there are 13 varieties of GMO corn and SDI is only planning to offer tests that will be able to detect four of the most popular Bt and Liberty Link varieties, Dautlick expects them to be very popular. The European Union, Japan, South Korea, Australia, and New Zealand have all passed or are considering laws requiring that food containing GMOs be labeled. But almost all GMO testing is conducted by and for businesses that demand proof the commodities they are buying contain no detectable GMOs. Even in the United States, where the official policy holds that GMO food is nutritionally identical to conventional food and therefore requires no label, some prominent U.S. food manufacturers have pledged not to include GMO ingredients in their lines. These include the leading manufacturers of baby food, Gerber and Heinz, as well as pet food maker Iams and a wide variety of health food companies. U.S. Agricultural Secretary Dan Glickman has also encouraged the food industry to voluntarily label GMO food. One of the reasons that the pace of testing has skyrocketed in recent months is because businesses want to avoid embarrassment. Gerber made its no-GMO vow after Greenpeace used DNA testing to show that the company's dry cereal baby food contained GMOs, for example. Other companies who have promised GMO-free food have had their claims refuted by testing. Much of the GMO contamination that such tests reveal can be traced to practices that fail to preserve the identity of non-GMO crops, Dautlick said. Commodities like soybeans, corn, and canola travel along a complex and convoluted path from the farm field to their ultimate destination on a consumer's table, passing through a series of grain elevators, transport trucks, ocean barges, ports, and food companies. Because many businesses in Germany and Japan require that products be certified to contain less than 0.1% or even 0.01% of GMOs, careless practices like not properly cleaning out a weighing bin can lead to contamination. People involved in moving these products "don't want to get stung," so they have begun testing at many points along the way, Dautlick said. But even if standardized practices for handling non-GMO crops were instituted worldwide tomorrow, they would not solve all of the GMO food contamination problems, according to Fagan. Genetic ID's testing has documented that GMO contamination of conventionally grown crops occurs when wind-blown pollen from GMO corn and canola crops in nearby fields cross-pollinates with non-GMO corn or canola, he said. (This is not much of a threat for plants like soybeans that self-pollinate.) Genetic ID has also amassed proof that seeds sold as non-GMO by seed companies are in fact contaminated with GMOs. Terra Prima, a company that sells organic corn chips, used DNA testing to prove that corn grown by a certified organic farmer in Texas was contaminated by cross-pollination from a nearby field where Bt corn was grown. The company was forced to destroy $87,000 worth of its chips because the contamination did not come to light until after the corn was made into chips; it is a plaintiff in a lawsuit filed against EPA this February alleging that the agency registered genetically engineered crops without adequately considering their health and environmental impacts. In addition to the cases he has documented, Fagan believes there are many other cases where non-GMO corn and canola crops became contaminated by cross-pollination from GMO crops. Pollen can easily travel beyond the "refuges" of non-GMO crops that EPA suggests farmers plant to inhibit the development of insect resistance to the Bt toxin, according to research conducted by the British Broadcasting Company in conjunction with Friends of the Earth. They employed a German laboratory to conduct DNA testing that showed pollen from a GMO canola field ended up 2.8 miles away in a bee hive. Greenpeace also conducted a test in Germany last October that documented corn pollen's drift into a neighboring field, said Charles Margulis, a campaigner with Greenpeace. Genetic drift in which pollen from one kind of plant is taken up by another plant, creating a new kind of hybrid, is also a concern, Margulis said. The United Kingdom's National Institute of Agricultural Botany reported in April that a hybrid "super weed" my have been created after canola pollen was taken up by wild turnips growing nearby. Some of these hybrid plants have proven to be resistant to the herbicide for which the canola was engineered to be resistant. Genetic ID's scientists became convinced that GMO corn seeds were mixed in with conventional seeds after they tested products from four major seed companies. They obtained five large samples of each of five different conventional seed varieties from each company, Fagan said. What Genetic ID found after conducting its tests-which are considered the most accurate method for detecting GMOs because they involve triple-checking for the presence of GMO DNA-was that all of the varieties of allegedly non-GMO seeds from each company contained between 0.01% and 1% GMOs, Fagan said. Though Genetic ID refuses to divulge the identity of the companies whose seeds were tested, farmers are already concerned about the purity of the seed stock and many are sending their seeds to be tested before they plant, Fagan said. Genetic ID has contacted the offending seed manufacturers and is offering to conduct the testing necessary to certify that their seed lots are GMO-free, according to a company spokesperson. Last summer, a European affiliate of Pioneer Hi-Bred International acknowledged that it sold conventional corn seed that was contaminated with GMOs. Ultimately, this evidence of how conventionally grown crops are being contaminated by windborne pollen and how seeds are falsely labeled as being non-GMO could give organic farmers grounds for a class-action lawsuit, said Michael Hansen, a research associate with the Consumer Policy Institute. The basis of such a suit could be the toxic trespass laws passed by many states to provide citizens with legal recourse against anyone who introduces toxins into the environment, Hansen said. -KELLYN S. BETTS Top - Robt Mann P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 14 07:48:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22830 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 07:48:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA19744; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 07:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA19566 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 07:39:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.199] (pm3shep4-163-199.intrepid.net [209.190.163.199]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA13353 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 07:43:14 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 07:45:08 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: ADMIN: Fund Raising Through Amazon.com Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2689 :s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, please contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com To UnSubscribe to BD Now!, send 'unsubscribe bdnow' in the body of a message to listproc@envirolink.org (you must send the msg from the email address you subscribed from!) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 14 08:10:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23111 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:10:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA20582; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:05:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20404 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:01:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.199] (pm3shep4-163-199.intrepid.net [209.190.163.199]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA16371 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:05:01 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:07:46 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: ADMIN: BD Now! Usage Report Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2690 To give you a better idea of how wide the desire for information about biodynamic farming and gardening is, here's October's 'hit list' for BD Now! (I have to admit, I'm pretty touched by this.) We are also achieving over 3000 hits a month on the BD Now! discussion archives. (Incidentally, if this fundraising procedes successfully, in the very near future we shall have FULL BODY search of the message archive! Anyone who has tried to find most ANYTHING in the message archives knows how incredibly valuable this new FULL BODY search capability will be.) Hey, I feel fulfilled, that's a fact. But, every piece of magmedia I have here is FULL FILLED and it's pretty trying to get the BD Now! webpages up to the level that the world needs at this point in time. I have SO MUCH material that I have permission to publish on the web that just isn't getting up there because of the time crunch due to slow, outdated, unreliable equipment.) Thanks to everyone on this list whose contributions (and simple attention)to the discussion on BD Now! make this project possible! -Allan Balliett moderator, BD NOW! +++++ +++++ +++++ +++++ +++++ +++++ +++++ +++++ +++++ +++++ www.igg.com/bdnow usage report for October, 1999 #reqs: %bytes: domain -----: ------: ------ 19056: 29.17%: .com (Commercial) 18433: 27.64%: .net (Network) 8753: 13.30%: [unresolved numerical addresses] 4290: 6.97%: .edu (USA Educational) 1709: 2.87%: .au (Australia) 1034: 2.53%: .uk (United Kingdom) 1166: 1.83%: .ca (Canada) 714: 1.64%: .nl (Netherlands) 531: 1.12%: .de (Germany) 758: 1.03%: .org (Non-Profit Making Organisations) 487: 0.95%: .us (United States) 669: 0.90%: .jp (Japan) 522: 0.90%: .fr (France) 604: 0.86%: .nz (New Zealand) 264: 0.69%: .se (Sweden) 329: 0.65%: .it (Italy) 405: 0.52%: .mx (Mexico) 183: 0.49%: .be (Belgium) 345: 0.47%: .gov (USA Government) 129: 0.47%: .fi (Finland) 152: 0.43%: .no (Norway) 174: 0.42%: .ch (Switzerland) 174: 0.39%: .dk (Denmark) 172: 0.38%: .es (Spain) 99: 0.35%: .at (Austria) 172: 0.32%: .br (Brazil) 113: 0.27%: .mil (USA Military) 111: 0.22%: .ar (Argentina) 65: 0.17%: .il (Israel) 114: 0.17%: .sg (Singapore) 71: 0.14%: .cz (Czech Republic) 91: 0.13%: .za (South Africa) 111: 0.12%: .pt (Portugal) 64: 0.10%: .tr (Turkey) 86: 0.10%: .in (India) 32: 0.09%: .ie (Ireland) 31: 0.09%: .ua (Ukraine) 36: 0.08%: .my (Malaysia) 16: 0.08%: .sa (Saudi Arabia) 99: 0.07%: .ru (Russia) 25: 0.05%: .kr (South Korea) 54: 0.05%: .th (Thailand) 21: 0.05%: .is (Iceland) 13: 0.05%: .gr (Greece) 13: 0.05%: .hr (Croatia) 24: 0.05%: .tw (Taiwan) 8: 0.05%: .hu (Hungary) 13: 0.04%: .ae (United Arab Emirates) 10: 0.04%: .sk (Slovak Republic) 8: 0.04%: .si (Slovenia) 3: 0.03%: .ro (Romania) 20: 0.03%: .hk (Hong Kong) 21: 0.03%: .co (Colombia) 12: 0.03%: .mu (Mauritius) 36: 0.03%: .uy (Uruguay) 25: 0.02%: .pl (Poland) 16: 0.02%: .ec (Ecuador) 11: 0.02%: .pe (Peru) 7: 0.02%: .ee (Estonia) 5: 0.02%: .id (Indonesia) 2: 0.02%: .py (Paraguay) 8: 0.02%: .lu (Luxembourg) 1: 0.02%: .cy (Cyprus) 1: 0.02%: .yu (Yugoslavia) 15: 0.02%: .ph (Philippines) 10: 0.02%: .lt (Lithuania) 9: 0.01%: .mk (Macedonia) 9: 0.01%: .pk (Pakistan) 7: 0.01%: .zw (Zimbabwe) 3: 0.01%: [domain not given] 5: 0.01%: .cl (Chile) 2: : .lb (Lebanon) 8: : .arpa (Old style Arpanet) 7: : [unknown domains] 1: : .int (International) 3: : .su (Former USSR) 1: : .na (Namibia) 1: : .lv (Latvia) ============================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing the highest quality food and medicinal crops to promote human wellness and development. A PAINLESS WAY to SUPPORT RESTORATIVE AGRICULTURE EDUCATION on the WEB ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can help defray the costs of supporting BD Now! by making your book or music purchases from AMAZON.COM through the search engine at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/search.html Every purchase you make at amazon.com, if you enter through the above link, earns BD Now! a 5 percent 'dividend' at absolutely no cost to you!! Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, please contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com To UnSubscribe to BD Now!, send 'unsubscribe bdnow' in the body of a message to listproc@envirolink.org (you must send the msg from the email address you subscribed from!) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 14 08:11:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23123 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:11:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA20696; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:06:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20410 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:01:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-22.s22.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.22] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11xrd8-0003ob-00; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:04:39 -0500 Message-ID: <385640B3.B295BD08@erols.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:05:55 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ADMIN: Fund Raising Through Amazon.com References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2691 Allan: Thanks! for the update. Now, c'mon everybody - I'm throwing out the challenge again to *match* $10/month. I paid up-front for the next year. Hoping everyone here can do the same! I really believe in Allan's work. He could use your help - Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 14 11:41:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26974 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:41:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06322; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:35:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06063 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:32:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-22.s22.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.22] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11xuvl-0000N3-00; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:36:06 -0500 Message-ID: <38567242.6553B4F1@erols.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:37:22 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "BD Now! Listserve" Subject: Storage of Preps Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2692 Good morning. Wondering if someone can tell me how long I can store each of the preps? Assuming they should be kept in a cool place, covered, and out of the sun - ?? And how much compost IS 1 - 15 tons (how big of a pile)? I'd like to get started with the BD compost preps, but wonder how much of a pile one set will treat (and can each one be broken in two to treat two separate piles?). Oh - and when can I apply the compost preps - any time? Lots of Qs! TIA, Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 14 14:25:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00208 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:25:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22556; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:20:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (dfprxy02.prodigy.net.mx [148.235.168.41] (may be forged)) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22052 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:15:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.95] (du-148-233-78-95.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMQ00HJ2W6PFP@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:16:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:16:05 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Storage of Preps X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA22054 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2693 Robert The tables I mentioned before are now at: http://www.cfe.cornell.edu/compost/OnFarmHandbook/apa.taba1.html Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 14 14:57:54 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00777 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:57:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26049; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:53:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (dfprxy01.prodigy.net.mx [148.235.168.40] (may be forged)) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25739 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:49:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.95] (du-148-233-78-95.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMQ00LA9VSTPP@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:07:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:07:47 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Storage of Preps In-reply-to: <38567242.6553B4F1@erols.com> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA25743 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2694 >Good morning. > >Wondering if someone can tell me how long I can store each of the preps? > >Assuming they should be kept in a cool place, covered, and out of the >sun - ?? > >And how much compost IS 1 - 15 tons (how big of a pile)? I'd like to >get started with the BD compost preps, but wonder how much of a pile one >set will treat (and can each one be broken in two to treat two separate >piles?). > >Oh - and when can I apply the compost preps - any time? > Hi Robert: If you are getting your preps fom JPI, they will provide all the info you will need. Not all the preps store in the same conditions; for the ones requiring a moist and dark environment, JPI has an instruction sheet on how to build a preps box using wood and peat moss, the other preps (501) have to go in a clear glass jar placed in a sunny spot. Make sure to ask JPI for a complete set of instructions. I believe that if the preps are stored right, they retain their power indefinitely. from JPI info: "the maximum amount of material that can be treated with one set of 502-707 is 15 ton. That is a pile about 21 feet long, 6 feet wide and as high as may be with sloping slides. A smaller pile needs a whole set." If you need more specific info, I recommend you go to "On-Farm Composting Handbook" http://www.cals.cornell.edu/dept/compost/ and look up the table on characteristics of raw material, there you will find the bulk density of compostable materials (ie. horse manure about 1400 lbs per cubic yard, leaves (loose and dry) 300-400 lbs per sq yard). At that web site they also offer an MS Excell routine to calculate the C-N ratios and moisture on your compost using the tables for raw materials. As to when to apply the preps, I recently asked if you could apply the preps to a finished compost pile and the answer was YES. The JPI info mentions: "...will give maximum effect if used promptly on raw, fresh manure, or newly piled compost. It is even better to lay them on a half finished pile so as to begin getting their effect sooner, provided there is ample material to cover them well at once and avoid any danger of drying." Hopes this helps. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 14 16:05:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01816 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:05:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03605; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 15:59:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA03249 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 15:55:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-77.s77.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.77] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11xz1b-0006W1-00; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 15:58:23 -0500 Message-ID: <3856AFBB.C267DD98@erols.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 15:59:40 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Storage of Preps References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2695 Wonderful! Thanks for the info, Guillermo! Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 14 19:07:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04786 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:07:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19852; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:02:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA19699 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:01:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d162.infoserve.net [199.175.157.162]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA07488 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:08:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000a01bf4690$a5db2260$a29dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF / Fw: GEN12-12How to avoid GE/UK, ... Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:09:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2696 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 1:51 PM Subject: GEN12-12How to avoid GE/UK, ... >Here is a posting from UK on how to avoid GE foods > >Note the UK residents are being cautioned not to travel to Canada if they >wish to avoid GE foods! > >============================ >USEFUL TIPS TO AVOID GM FOODS (Updated 10th December, 1999) >============================ > >1) READ THE PRODUCT LABELS and avoid soya-based ingredients such as soya >flour, soya oil, vegetable oil, lecithin and hydrolysed vegetable protein. >And avoid maize-based ingredients such as modified starch, cornflour, corn >starch, corn oil and polenta. Note: These ingredients are to be avoided >simply because there is no way of knowing if they contain GM-soya or >GM-maize derivatives (unless of course the product is guaranteed free of >"all" GM ingredients and derivatives, or is 'certified' organic). > >2) GET YOUR FOOD FROM A RELIABLE SOURCE: Shop organic. Certified organic >bread, milk, butter, fruit & vegetables, baby foods, flour, vegetable oils, >chocolate, ice-cream and fruit juices, etc. are popular and prices have >fallen: Available from organic suppliers, wholefood shops, Safeway, Tesco >and Sainsbury's. Look for the Soil Association symbol, or a label with a >UKROFS registration number. Favour organic wholefoods where possible. > >3) CUT DOWN ON PROCESSED FOODS because they are more likely to be affected >by genetic modification. For example, many brands of dairy products, >cereals, jam, fruit juice, cooking oil, sweeteners, slimming foods, >beverages, wine and beer etc. are produced with GM-enzymes. If you have any >doubts about a particular product, contact the manufacturer for assurance. >Or else buy certified organic foods, or wholefood products which are >guaranteed GM-free. > >4) HOME-MADE MEALS, bread, cakes and cheese etc. are obviously healthier >and more nutritious than factory-made equivalents. > >5) AVOID "fast food" restaurants and "low budget" products because GM-foods >are being introduced into cheaper brands initially. For example: >Kwik-Save's No Frills bread and cheese products are affected by GM; Asda's >Farm Stores products - such as Farm Stores Baked Beans, Crisps, Chicken >Curry, Vegetable Curry, Chilli Con Carne, Mayonnaise, etc., are also >affected. > >6) BAKERY PRODUCTS When buying bakery products such as bread, avoid "flour >improver" and "flour treatment agent", which may be a mixture of GM-enzymes >and additives. (The GM enzymes Alpha Amylase is sometimes listed on bakery >product labels and is best avoided). > >7) AVOID margarine. Favour organic butter. For dairy-free diets favour >GM-free sunflower spreads etc., which are available from some wholefood >shops. > >8) DAIRY PRODUCTS and meat from animals fed GM soya and maize will not be >labelled as such - in spite of evidence that modified DNA can cross the gut >wall and enter spleen, liver and white blood cells. Favour organic milk, >butter, cream and cheese etc. > >9) CHOCOLATE can contain GM-soya lecithin, and "vegetable fat" and "whey" >which are affected by GM. So favour organic chocolate. Green & Black's have >a >policy of using GM-free lecithin and avoiding all GM ingredients. Note: All >lecithin is soya lecithin. Its E number is E322. > >10) SHOP WITH CARE because Riboflavin (Vitamin B2) produced from >GM-organisms was last year approved for use in the UK. Riboflavin is used >in baby foods, breakfast cereals, soft drinks and slimming foods etc. > >11) REGARDING HEALTH FOOD SUPPLEMENTS, vitamins and medicines: check with >the manufacturer, as some ingredients may be produced by biotechnology. In >the USA, the GM food supplement Tryptophan killed 37 consumers and >permanently disabled 1,500 more. Boots the Chemist recently admitted that >their pharmaceutical products are affected by GM . All pharmaceuticals must >now be under suspicion: contact the manufacturer to inquire about specific >products. >For the last ten years there have been reports of a GM version of human >insulin causing problems in diabetics who happily used animal insulin for >years. > >12) IS IT REALLY GM-FREE? When contacting a manufacturer to enquire if a >particular product is GM-free, ask them to confirm that the product >contains - "no genetically modified ingredients or derivatives, as was not >produced using GM-derived enzymes". Ask for written confirmation rather >than relying on a verbal assurance. > >13) HONEY. All Canadian honey is now suspect, as traces of oilseed rape DNA >have already been detected in several brands. Many brands of honey sold in >the UK are a mixture of honeys from various countries, including Canada. So >if the label on a jar of honey states: "Imported honey", or: "Product of >more than one country", then it is advisable to avoid these, or to contact >the manufacturer to enquire as to the country of origin. FAVOUR ORGANIC >HONEY as attempts are made to preserve wide margins between hives and GM or >agrochemical-sprayed crops. > >14) DRIED FRUIT. Many brands of dried fruit, including raisins, sultanas, >currants, dates - and even dried fruit in some breakfast cereals - are >coated with oil derived from GM soya. Favour organic brands of dried fruit, >or brands that don't list "'vegetable oil" on the label (available from >wholefood stores). > >15) WARNING. Avoid all imported foods from America and Canada because these >countries are much further down the biotech road than we are. Products to >avoid include all fruit and vegetables, ice-cream, milk, milk powder, >butter, soy sauce, chocolate, popcorn, chewing gum, health foods, vitamins, >and cotton and denim clothing. > >16) WARNING. Holidaying in America or Canada will almost certainly involve >consuming GM food on a regular basis (including GM fresh fruit and >vegetables). Most hotels, restaurants and theme parks are affected - >including Disney theme parks. Favour alternative destinations; go >self-catering, and avoid processed and packet foods wherever possible. Most >in-flight meals, snacks. sweets and fizzy drinks may be affected by GM. >Write to the directors of airline companies, and the large hotel chains; >demand food that is free from GM ingredients and derivatives. British >Airways need some persuasion to go GM-free. Write to: The Chief Executive, >British Airways, Waterside, West Drayton, UB7 OGB. Fax: 0208-759-9597. > >--------------------- >Source: GM Foods and How to Avoid Them - >http://wkweb4.cableinet.co.uk/pbrown/index.htm. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- -- > >"Swapping genes between organisms can produce unknown toxic effects and >allergies that are most likely to affect children" - Dr Vyvyan Howard: >expert in infant toxico-pathology at Liverpool University Hospital, UK. >(Ref: The Guardian: 19/3/98) > >...... > >GREENPEACE TAKES ISSUE WITH STATEMENTS MADE >December 7, 1999 >Ontario Farmer >Michael Khoo of Greenpeace, Toronto writes that given the highly charged >nature of the genetic engineering (GE) debate, it is important that we >stick to the facts and not resort to misinformation and slander. AgCare >Chairman Jim Fischer's attack on "private interest groups" (AgCare, >Greenpeace, October 5/99), ignores the fact that GE critics come from all >walks of life including consumers, scientists, labourers, seniors, >environmentalists, medical groups, health professionals, lawyers, and even >farmers themselves. This is why consumers are rejecting GE foods all around >the world. Japan and Korea are instituting mandatory labeling. > >Hong Kong supermarkets are going GE free. Europe remains closed. The US is >even considering mandatory labeling. > >It is also for these reasons that the American corn growers and 30 other >farm groups are telling farmers to buy non-GE seed now and predicting a 25 >per cent drop in GE seed sales. This is why ADM is segregating and only 36 >per cent of Nebraska farmers are planning on using GE seed next year. And >this is why Monsanto, Novartis, Dupont and Pioneer are preparing for the >first major drop in sales of their new product. Here at home, McCain Foods >just announced that it is going GE free. It is dangerously misleading to >tell farmers that consumer issues will just go away because it is only a >few environmentalists who are concerned. > >Fischer would have your readers believe that public concern about >genetically engineered crops are based on rhetoric and personal opinion >rather than real science . But Fischer ignores the fact that almost no >real science exists on the long-term impact on human health and the >environment of GE crops. History is full of dangerous examples of rushing >forward with new technologies such as DDT and asbestos. Consumers are >quickly realizing that history may repeat itself. The few independent tests >that have been done point to some serious concerns: the University of >Wisconsin study which shows that herbicide use increases in GE crops and >causes a 5% yield drag; Dr. Arpad Pusztai s controversial study showed >immune system and organ damage in rats fed GE potatoes; even a conservative >group of doctors, the British Medical Association, have called for an >open-ended moratorium due to lack of science. > >Groups like AGCare and Ontario Agri-Food Technologies would like to sweep >these independent studies under the carpet and have the public trust >industry-funded data, rubber-stamped by a federal government agency >mandated to promote biotech products. But the public, not just Greenpeace, >is rapidly beginning to question our regulatory process. We also ask >readers to consider the truth behind the false comments about Greenpeace s >finances. OAFT chairman Dr. Bruce Hunter and Gord Surgeoner have both >claimed that we get millions of dollars from our international office for >this campaign. Again reality, and our publicly available annual report, >show that Greenpeace Canada donated $300,000 to our international office in >1999. In fact they have no fundraising base beyond national offices such >as Canada. > >To set the record straight, our genetic engineering campaign has an >operating budget of $30,000. This obviously pales in comparison to the >millions of dollars that the biotech industry is spending on their public >relations efforts. > >So why is public concern over GE still skyrocketing? Probably because >Greenpeace plays only a small part in a larger debate. These lies about >Greepeace s finances are another attempt to convince farmers that concern >over GE foods are the interest of only a small group of people. Yet a >national poll from September 1999 showed that over 80% of people want >labeling and half want a ban on GE imports. Polls have said this since >1994, long before Greenpeace began its campaign in Canada. Consumer >rejection of GE food is broad-based and industry s aggressive >misinformation only serve to heighten concerns. So what does Greenpeace >have to say to Ontario farmers about planting GE crops? Follow Dale Adolphe >s (president of the Canola council) advice to keep your ear to the ground >this, of any year, is likely a good year to make a late decision rather >than an early one. Listen to Greg Arason, president of the Canadian Wheat >Board, who is trying to preserve premium markets for wheat and calling for >a moratorium on new registrations until consumer acceptance and segregation >is assured. The customer is always right and someone else will fill the >void, perhaps leaving our farmers to pick up the pieces he says. > >Also consider the opportunity of a new premium market in non-GE. Some >Ontario soybean farmers are earning $0.40 more a bushel for non-GE European >exports. The distributors we speak to say that current demand is >insatiable. Segregation for these markets is possible and is the only way >to achieve premiums. This also avoids having to compete with US farms >which have better economies of scale. The challenge for farmers should be >how to satisfy premium markets, not how to change the preferences of a wary >public. > > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 14 19:07:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04795 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:07:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19906; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:02:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA19784 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:01:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d162.infoserve.net [199.175.157.162]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA07542 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:09:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000f01bf4690$beccf000$a29dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF/ Canadian Chefs want GM food labelled / Fw: GEN12-14 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:10:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2697 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 1:49 PM Subject: GEN12-14 >TOP CHEFS WANT LABELS ON GENETICALLY ALTERED FOOD > >December 13, 1999 > >CBC (Newsworld) > >http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view.cgi?/news/1999/12/13/chefs991213 > >MONTREAL -- Several prominent chefs from across Canada are demanding that >genetically altered foods be clearly identified. > >INDEPTH: Food Fight >The chefs held a news conference in Montreal to say they would never use >such products if they knew they had been modified. The chefs work at such >renowned restaurants as Le Toque and Le Passe-Partout. They say they have >no way of knowing if the foods they're using have been genetically altered >or not. ... > >The groups say genetically altered foods are too new to the market to be >guaranteed safe. In addition to labelling, they want the government to do >more tests on the genetically altered foods to determine if they have any >long-term effects on health or the environment. > >......... > >BIOTECH FOOD FIGHT ERUPTS IN AMERICA > >Madison, WI: The new issue of PR Watch examines the massive industry and >government public relations campaign underway to prevent safety testing and >consumer labeling of genetically engineered (GE) foods in the United >States. PR Watch (Volume 6, Number 4) is available online at > > > Investigative journalist Karen Charman reveals in PR Watch how the >US food industry, reeling from European rejection of genetically engineered >foods such as Monsanto's bovine growth hormone (rBGH) and biotech corn and >soybeans, wants to prevent the commotion abroad from awakening US consumers >already ingesting GE foods. Last summer tens of millions of acres in the >US were planted with genetically engineered crops that were unknowingly >consumed by most Americans since the US government does not require safety >testing or supermarket labeling. > >......... > >US FDA Hearings > >Dr. Charles Benbrook has posted coverage of the FDA biotech hearings, > >Some of the major press coverage on Ag BioTech InfoNet at -- > >http://www.biotech-info.net/policy.html#fda > >They also posted 8 of the statements delivered thus far, and no doubt will >post many more as they receive them. To reach the statements, go to -- > >http://www.biotech-info.net/FDA_hearings.html > >People interested in FDA policy may also wish to review the important >debate over "substantial equivalence" triggered by the Millstone et al >letter in Nature. For the Millstone piece and responses, see -- > >http://www.biotech-info.net/policy.html#discussion > >....... > >World Environment News - December 14, 1999 from Planet Ark >======================================================= > >Here are today's Reuters 'World Environment News' headlines. > >Click on the link below the headline to check out the full story, >or go to the Planet Ark news page at http://www.planetark.org/news/ > >INTERVIEW - Scientists in Italy study GM rice - ITALY >http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm?newsid=5073 > >EU takes tough stand on GMO trade negotiations - EU >http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm?newsid=5078 > >EU ministers rubber-stamp deal to tighten new GMOs - EU >http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm?newsid=5079 > >...... > > >Feeding Frenzy > >Americans are suddenly outraged about biotech food. What took so long? >By MICHAEL POLLAN > >New York Times Magazine >Dec 13, 1999 > >Gazing nervously across the Atlantic at European outrage over genetically >modified food, industry and government leaders have been quick to reach for >words like "hysteria" and "madness." How else to explain the uprooting of >biotech crops in English fields? Or naked protesters in Rome pelting >American cabinet secretaries with genetically engineered ("G.E.") >soybeans? It's irrational, surely, to reject out of hand such a shiny new >technology, especially one that comes with the seal of approval of >American regulators (the vaunted Food and Drug Administration, no less). > >Stylistically, too, the European protests seem so old. There they go, those >Brits, indulging their Luddite fear of the new, actually taking seriously a >prince (a prince!) who declares that this technology lacks the sanction of >God. And the French! Hopelessly sentimental, urinating in protest on >shipments of high-tech seed and nattering on about "culinary dispossession" >as if this were 1968. "Europe seems to be gripped right now by a collective >madness," Senator Richard Lugar suggested during a visit to Germany last >summer. "And we don't want that to spread to the rest of the world." > >Since then, of course, the "madness" has spread; witness the events in >Seattle. In a global economy, protest moves as easily across borders as >products. > >In recent months, activists dressed as monarch butterflies have popped up >in London, Chicago and Washington (as well as Seattle), reminders of a >famous recent study at Cornell that found biotech corn may pose a threat to >the beloved insect. A cliche of chaos theory holds that the flutter of a >butterfly's wing in, say, Timbuktu, can set off a hurricane half a world >away. > >So it was with these butterflies in Ithaca, who moved the biotech story >from the business pages to the front pages. For most Americans, it came as >news that there were already some 20 million acres of biotech corn planted >in the United States. You mean we're already eating this stuff? And how >come nobody thought of doing these tests 20 million acres ago? > >The wonder is that it has taken so long for the political debate about G.E. >food to reach our shores. One theory about why Europeans got so hysterical >so quickly about G.E. food is that they lack a trusted regulator like the >F.D.A. protecting their food supply. Sounds rational enough, until you >discover that the F.D.A.'s "regulation" of biotech is voluntary; companies >decide for themselves whether to submit a new biotech food to the agency >for review. In other words, the agency's >oversight of biotech food has been based less on law and science than on >faith. > >Last year, the Center for Food Safety, a public-interest group, sued them >F.D.A., charging that its 1992 rules covering biotech food were illegal >because the agency had failed to seek public comment or conduct a thorough >scientific review. The agency's response was alarming: since we have no >regulations concerning biotech food, they can't be illegal. Just last >month, seven years after first approving G.E. food, the F.D.A. held its >first public hearings about it. > >The industry and its regulators evidently didn't think we needed to be >informed that our entire food supply was about to be transformed. After >all, Americans are by now so far removed from the farm that we know >remarkably little -- at least compared with the Europeans -- about the >processes by which food finds its way to our plates. Food? That comes from >the supermarket. So who was going to notice or care if one more high-tech >link was quietly added to a food chain already so long and intricate? We >are the people who eat Olestra, after all. > >Labeling was rejected out of hand -- too cumbersome and too risky. For who, >given the choice, would reach for the spuds with the biotech label? > >Right there, in the produce section, lurks the question that goes to the >heart of what it means to be rational or hysterical about biotech food. >What if I approach the matter as rationally as possible and decide which >vegetables to buy based on a strict "cost-benefit analysis"? First, I'll >need a little information -- a label (which we may yet get: last month a >bill was introduced in Congress calling for the labeling of biotech food). >Next, I'll need to know what benefits these novel foods offer. According to >the industry that makes them, today's biotech crops (like Round-Up Ready >soybeans that resist herbicides, and potatoes and corn that produce their >own pesticide) offer plenty of advantages to farmers. They acknowledge, >however, that the benefits to consumers are negligible. The food is no >cheaper, safer or tastier. > >Now add to this calculus what we know about the risks. None to my health >have been established, but then, no one's looked very long or hard, either. >So: probably safe, but no guarantee. As for risks to the environment, >several have already been identified -- the threat to butterflies, the >prospect of superweeds and superbugs. > >The cost-benefit analysis seems clear: I'd have to be crazy to buy this stuff. > >The industry realizes that, in its case, an educated consumer is not its >best customer, so lately it has adopted a new tack -- suggesting my >produce-aisle calculus is shortsighted and selfish. That's because the real >benefits of genetically engineered food will be reaped in the future by >hungry people in the third world. Some day, "golden rice" will nourish the >malnourished and bananas will be re-engineered to deliver vaccines. > >The industry, in other words, is asking consumers to do something it has >yet to do itself: Forget rational self-interest, and act on faith. Maybe >Monsanto and the others are sincere. So bring on the golden rice! And what >will they say about this epiphany in the aisles of my supermarket or on >Wall Street? A word leaps to mind: hysterical. > >...... > >Thanks to jim mc nulty for posting the following: > >EU takes tough stand on GMO trade negotiations > >Dec 14, 1999 > >BRUSSELS, Reuters [EB] via NewsEdge Corporation : European Union >environment ministers called on Monday for the rapid conclusion of a tough >and binding global pact to regulate trade in genetically modified >commodities. > >Ministers approved the EU's negotiating position for talks in Montreal, >Canada next month on a long-delayed international Biosafety Protocol under >the auspices of the United Nations. > >The agreement promises the EU will take a tough line in what is supposed to >be the last round of talks, according to a copy of the final text. > >"We got very strong backing for a tough negotiating position," said Pia >Ahrenkilde-Hansen, spokeswoman for EU Environment Commissioner Margot >Wallstrom. > >"Ministers stressed the need for an agreement to be struck now and said >this protocol must not be subordinated to World Trade Organisation rules." > >A U.N. conference in February in Cartagena, Colombia broke up without >agreement after the U.S.-led "Miami Group" of countries -- Canada, >Argentina, Uruguay, Australia and Chile -- refused to accept demands for >labelling of genetically modified bulk commodities. > >....... > >Dec 14, 1999 >posted by Jonathan > >Protesters Rally Vs. 'Frankenfoods' > >The Associated Press > >By JESSIE SEYFER > >OAKLAND, Calif. (AP) - Demonstrators rallied Monday to protest a government >hearing on the safety of what opponents call ``Frankenfoods'' - food >created by altering genes to increase yields or to improve its flavor, >shelf life and appearance. > >More than 1,000 people rallied at noon in front of Oakland's federal >building to make speeches about what they felt was a lack of regulation of >genetically modified foods by the Food and Drug Administration. > >Inside the building, leading food experts discussed the issue with the FDA. > >``Genetic contamination is forever,'' said organic farmer Laura Trent, >whose sign read, `Get your pig gene out of my tomato.' ``No scientist has >proven it safe, and most people don't even know it's happening.'' > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 15 00:14:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09672 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:14:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA16112; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA14908 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:04:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.116] (r-66.115.alltel.net [166.102.66.115]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id XAA14927 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 23:07:54 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 21:16:48 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: OFF Fwd: Lip prints Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2698 >>> >>According to a radio report, a middle school in Oregon was faced >>with a unique problem. A number of girls were beginning to use lipstick >and >>would put it on in the bathroom. That was fine, but after they put on >their >>lipstick they would press their lips to the mirror leaving dozens of >little >>lip prints. > >Finally the principal decided that something had to be done. >> >She called all the girls to the bathroom and met them there with the >>maintenance man. >> >>She explained that all these lip prints were causing a major problem >for >>the custodian who had to clean the mirrors every night. > >To demonstrate how difficult it was to clean the mirrors, she asked the >maintenance guy to >>clean one of the mirrors. >> >>He took out a long-handled squeegee, dipped it into the toilet and then >>cleaned the mirror. > >Since then there have been no lip prints on the mirror. > >There are teachers---and then there are TEACHERS!!! > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 15 02:22:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA11142 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 02:22:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA24489; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 02:17:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from srv1.acenet.com.au (postfix@srv1.acenet.com.au [203.35.119.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA24433 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 02:16:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from acenet.com.au (unknown [203.35.156.47]) by srv1.acenet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70255877E for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:20:39 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <38574337.EF205DA2@acenet.com.au> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:28:55 +1000 From: Brian Keats Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: NEW BD BOOK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2699 Hello All, I have written a series of articles and essays which I have compiled into a book which strives to help deepen an understanding of Biodynamics and Astronomy. It is not a recipe book for BD and Moon Planting even though there is practical information for both. The book "BETWIXT HEAVEN & EARTH" is flavoured by my experiences in Biodynamics, compiling and publishing BD planting calendars since 1985, teaching in Steiner High Schools and a love of the night sky. If you can judge a book by its cover and would like to know more, check my web page http://www.acenet.com.au/~astrocal Regards from down under, Brian Keats From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 15 10:01:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15470 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:01:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17621; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:55:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17335 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:53:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.147] (pm3shep1-163-27.intrepid.net [209.190.163.27]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA03922 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:57:00 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:58:10 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Stella based: "Gardening by the Moon 2000" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2700 Here's a BD-related wonderful gift item that's arrived too late for anyone to get by Christmas! I have several copies of a "Gardening by the Moon 2000" POSTER calendar that is done by permaculturist and garden designer, Michael Littlewood. The calendar is unbelieveabley beautiful in both design and color, is on very heavy paper and measures approx 16x24 inches. (See a very poor picture of a portion of this calendar poster at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/moon.jpg . The nice thing about this calendar is that it lets you see the entire year at a glance, so those patterns that Guillermo was inquiring about earlier just sort of stand out. This calendar is also a thing of beauty; it will certain attract attention wherever you hang it. The information on this calendar is sourced from Maria Thun, from the US Stella Natura and from a book called "Varely Thomes' Millenium Moon Planner." The back of the calendar is covered with very readable information on how to use the calendar for planting, paying almost as much attention to the position of Jupiter as to that of the Moon. (It's too bad that all of this good information is on the BACK of a poster!) I have a limited number of these and, as I understand, they are gone now for this year. However, I do have enough that if someone is interested in a dozen or so for a regional group or for a bookstore I can probably work with you. I have NOT had a chance to check this calendar against Stella or with Hugh Courtney. Michale Littlewood, however, has a reputation for attention and insight. The tasteful design of this calendar is witness to that. Price is $15 plus US Postage and mailing tube expense (I haven't checked this out, but probably $4 total in the US) Overseas shipping will be more expensive. Let me know soon on this before they all go to one source. Thnks -Allan Balliett csa@claymont.org From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 15 10:04:46 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15530 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:04:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17954; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:59:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17671 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:56:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.147] (pm3shep1-163-27.intrepid.net [209.190.163.27]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA04562 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:00:18 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:03:29 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: re: Stella based: "Gardening by the Moon 2000" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2701 Testing your patience, I should add: the picture at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/moon.jpg was pieced together after dragging a calendar through my scanner, 'snapping' a piece at a time. I only scanned the upper 'half' and it looks like that didn't piece together very well. So, no, the calendar doesn't exactly look like the jpg. Thanks! -Allan ============================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing the highest quality food and medicinal crops to promote human wellness and development. A PAINLESS WAY to SUPPORT RESTORATIVE AGRICULTURE EDUCATION on the WEB ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can help defray the costs of supporting BD Now! by making your book or music purchases from AMAZON.COM through the search engine at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/search.html Every purchase you make at amazon.com, if you enter through the above link, earns BD Now! a 5 percent 'dividend' at absolutely no cost to you!! Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, please contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com To UnSubscribe to BD Now!, send 'unsubscribe bdnow' in the body of a message to listproc@envirolink.org (you must send the msg from the email address you subscribed from!) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 15 12:17:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02818 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:17:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00247; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:12:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29959 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:08:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from micron - 63.17.183.10 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:12:07 -0800 Message-ID: <001e01bf471f$a35b6f60$0ab7113f@micron> From: "Wells" To: References: Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:12:58 -0800 Organization: Microsoft Corporation X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2702 Great story!!! Wells Wagner ----- Original Message ----- From: Hugh Lovel To: Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 6:16 PM Subject: OFF Fwd: Lip prints > > >>> > >>According to a radio report, a middle school in Oregon was faced > >>with a unique problem. A number of girls were beginning to use lipstick > >and > >>would put it on in the bathroom. That was fine, but after they put on > >their > >>lipstick they would press their lips to the mirror leaving dozens of > >little > >>lip prints. > > > >Finally the principal decided that something had to be done. > >> > >She called all the girls to the bathroom and met them there with the > >>maintenance man. > >> > >>She explained that all these lip prints were causing a major problem > >for > >>the custodian who had to clean the mirrors every night. > > > >To demonstrate how difficult it was to clean the mirrors, she asked the > >maintenance guy to > >>clean one of the mirrors. > >> > >>He took out a long-handled squeegee, dipped it into the toilet and then > >>cleaned the mirror. > > > >Since then there have been no lip prints on the mirror. > > > >There are teachers---and then there are TEACHERS!!! > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 15 18:44:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA13306 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:44:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA11230; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:28:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10989 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:25:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.167] (pm3shep4-163-167.intrepid.net [209.190.163.167]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18999 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:29:12 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:28:37 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: RECEIVED: Biodynamics: Farming and Gardening for the 21st Century Nov/Dec '99 No. 226 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2703 Biodynamics: Farming and Gardening for the 21st Century Nov/Dec '99 No. 226 (http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/bd226.jpg) 36pages Contents: >From the West Coast - Chuck Beedy BDA Board Meeting - Jean Yeager Biodynamics Hawaii Regional Development Report - Phyl Dwyer Demeter in Wonderland - Anne Mendenhall BD Seed Growers Circle Meetin - Gunther Hauk Building Resonant Communities - Marney Blair What is Biodynamic Farming? - Walter Goldstein An Herb-Grower's Diary VIII - Heinz Grozke What You Can Learn from Your Horse - Hartmut von Jeetze Recommendations - Hugh Courtney Calendar of Events Internships/Employment Steiner's Concerns About Degeneration of Agriculture (from "What is Biodynamic Farming" by MFAI director, Walter Goldstein) Rudolf Steiner was concerned about a general loss in the quality of food, including its taste. He stated that poorer quality food Would cause health problems and that degenerative symptoms would accumulate through generations We. do not know whether the increase in degenerative diseases that afflicts humanity has anything to do with what he meant. In any case it is clear that humanity is taking part in a huge experiment with food grown by chemical farming that does not have any controls. Steiner indicated that the uptake of trace elements by crops would decrease as a consequence of conventional practices. There is some evidence that this has occurred. Comparisons of the mineral content of twenty vegetables or fruits grown in the United Kingdom since chemical use has become common have shown that In 1991 the iron and copper content of vegetables decreased by 1/4 and 4/5 of what they were in the 1930s. There were reductions of about 1/7, 1/5, and 1/3 for potassium, calcium, and magnesium contents as well. These decreases occurred despite the fact that there was hardly any reduction in the dry matter content of the vegetables. In fruit there was a reduction of iron and copper contents by 1/3, and a reduction in the amounts of potassium and magnesium by 1/5 and 1/10 respectively. The amount of dry matter in the fruit decreased by about 1/10. More historical studies need to be done to see if these results are correct or applicable for other regions. A major in the trace elements might be expected to have consequences for the health of humans and animals. An adequate supply of trace elements is essential for regulating the formation of the body, including the nervous system, the skeleton and connective tissues, and the blood, and for regulating metabolism. Deficiencies of trace elements have been linked with a series of degenerative diseases including hypertension, increased levels of cholesterol in the blood and tissues, heart disease, obesity, cancers, and with disturbed sexual behavior or function. Fruits and vegetables are the crops that nutritionists rely on for providing humans with many of the trace elements that they need. But even if the concentrations of these minerals really have decreased in fruits and vegetables, we dont know why. Perhaps it might be due to decreases in the quantities of available trace elements in the soil, caused either by one-sided fertilization or by changes in the biology of the soil. The availability of trace elements depends on having an active soil. There are also some indications that we may have unwittingly bred crops that have lower contents of trace elements. Steiner was also concerned with the loss of instincts and general degeneration of our domesticated animals, Since his time there have occurred variable losses of instinctual ability amongst commercial races of chickens, turkeys, pigs, sheep, and cattle. These may include the loss of mothering ability, eating instincts, and even sexual orientation. In the United States today it is difficult to find commercial chickens that can routinely hatch out their own eggs or commercial turkeys that can graze. Commercial turkeys must be artificially inseminated because the males will have heart attacks or crush the hens when they attempt to mate. Some intensively raised races of sheep and cattle have partly lost their instincts for grazing or browsing. Other symptoms of degeneration are that the production of lambs of most races has become totally dependent on the regular use of worming agents. The production of turkeys has become dependent on the routine feeding of coccidiostats. Furthermore, Steiner predicted that modern practices for artificially raising queen bees from workers would ruin the beekeeping industry by the end of the century, This prediction is often cited in connection with the Varroa mite epidemic that has disrupted the bee world. The susceptibility to the mite has to do with a loss of instincts by bees on how to detect and remove the mite. Some, more primitive races, such as the Africanized bee, or the Asian bee, still have these instincts. To our knowledge it has not been proven whether the susceptibility of our commercialized races of bees has anything to do with how queens have been raised for generations. But it is remarkable how, even today, these kinds of long-term health questions are hardly raised or seriously addressed. Though our times seem to ask for a change in our way of thin king in order to avoid or reverse degeneration, all this seems to stand in contrast to the faith that the agricultural community has in medicines and in the permanence of genetics. Steiner also predicted that feeding meat to cows would make them mad. Recently "mad cow disease" has emerged as a serious problem. It is probably caused by feeding meat products to cows, and causing a disruption of proteins in their nervous systems. The disease may cause a similar illness in human beings. The financial losses by conventional farmers in England as a consequence of this disease have been enormous. Finally, Steiner was concerned about a decline in the ability of the human race to reproduce. It is a fact that the sperm counts of human males have been steadily diminishing this century. If this trend continues on a steady path, humanity might soon experience limits to natural reproduction. No one knows why this is happening. Some think it is due to the fact that trace amounts of pesticides, plastics, and heavy metals may have estrogenic effects. Another possibility is that the use of mineral fertilizers may be contributing to a decrease in fertility. Studies in Austria and Germany showed a direct linkage between the intensity of fertilization with mineral fertilizers and infertility in bulls, cows, guinea pigs, and rabbits. In contrast to this decline in fertility, a recent survey of the sperm Counts of organic farmers in Denmark showed that they had double the average count for the country. Perhaps the great lesson that humanity could learn from all this is to find ways to estimate the long term impact of radically new agricultural technological practices before they are introduced on a global scale. This means finding ways to evaluate the health of whole organisms and ways to estimate the long-term impacts of radical technologies on the health of plants, animals, and people over several generations. It also means that more emphasis should be put on breeding and managing for health rather than on redesigning plants and animals to be better "production machines." Unfortunately, the rapid introduction of genetically engineered organisms onto farms shows that we have not yet learned such lessons. +++++ Subscriptions to BIODYNAMICS are available from the Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association, Inc, Bldg 1002B, Thoreau Center, The Presidio, POB 29135, SF, CA 94129-0135. They cost $45 a year and include a membership in the association. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 15 20:22:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14177 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:22:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA19369; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:06:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.mcn.org (mail.mcn.org [204.189.12.25]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19180 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:04:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from 63.193.12.205 (ha-1o-men-p5-m01.mcn.org [63.193.12.205]) by mail.mcn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA05025 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:08:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3857CDA6.186A@mcn.org> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:19:34 +0000 From: Kate Clarke Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Foxglove Farm (707) 937-4116 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Maria Thun/Stella Natura Wall Calendar References: <001901bf434b$5798c0a0$ebb7113f@micron> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2704 will someone post the address so i can send to recieve this calendar thanks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 15 21:08:03 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14968 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:08:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23125; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:53:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA23028 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:52:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.167] (pm3shep1-163-62.intrepid.net [209.190.163.62]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA18630 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:56:03 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3857CDA6.186A@mcn.org> References: <001901bf434b$5798c0a0$ebb7113f@micron> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:59:03 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Maria Thun/Stella Natura Wall Calendar Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2705 >will someone post the address so i can send to recieve this calendar >thanks Hi, Kate - An (Broadway) 'Angel' came to me and offered me a roll of these posters calendars for fundraising for BD Now! (And, no, they did not give them to us!) We'll be taking the orders and shipping from the Eastern Panhandle. Visa/MasterCard/Discover are accepted, so are checks, money orders, and blessed cash. (US FUNDS, please!) Current pricing is $15 for the poster calendar and $4 for shipping in a tube in the US. Postage to the rest of the world will have to be determined. Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA BIODYNAMICS Now! 207 W. High Street POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 Please note: this will NOT be an on-going offer. There are not more calendars available to us and at the rate they are going, we won't have them through the weekend. I am so enthralled with the information on the 'back' of the calendar (philosophy of using the moon and stars to plant), that I'm definitely going to post two of them in the farm kitchen wall - - one face out and the next BACK out! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 05:48:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA19262 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:48:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA00509; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:38:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA00267 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:36:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([210.55.126.229]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991216104013.RXOF27648.mta3-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 23:40:13 +1300 Message-ID: <3858C195.E9B@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 23:40:21 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNOW Subject: archives Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2706 While doing some general searching of the net on Biodynamics I have been pulling up random pages from the BDNOW archives, which just seem to be floating around out there, out of context or relationship to any earlier or future parts of the discussion. Is this a good idea????? Should the archive be so totally open to any person on the planet not actually a member of the group???? Glen Atkinson. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 07:03:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA19598 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:03:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA06057; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 06:57:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from earth.ncn.net (root@ncn.net [199.120.120.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA05783 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 06:54:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([206.72.53.38]) by earth.ncn.net (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA28292 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:50:28 -0600 Message-ID: <000a01bf47bc$be825720$263548ce@default> From: "Mike or Mona Majorowicz" To: Subject: Re: archives Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:56:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2707 Glen- Since you are saying that these pages are out of context, I'm assuming you are refering to pages that someone has copied from the archive and posted on their web site. I would concider links directly to the archives well in context. Could you provide us with specific addresses of pages that have peaked your concern? My only qualm about the archives being open to everyone is the rather dismal history of flames and criticism associated with BDNow. It certainly isn't the best way to present biodynamics to the uninitiated. I am not proud of everything I've posted to BDNow, but I think everyone having free access to information about biodynamics is more important than my pride. After all isn't hiding information one of the big criticisms of the BDFGA that has appeared on BDNow? What specifically do the archives contain that shouldn't be availabe to everyone? Mike Majorowicz -----Original Message----- From: Glen Atkinson To: BDNOW Date: Thursday, December 16, 1999 4:40 AM Subject: archives >While doing some general searching of the net on Biodynamics I have been >pulling up random pages from the BDNOW archives, which just seem to be >floating around out there, out of context or relationship to any earlier >or future parts of the discussion. > >Is this a good idea????? > >Should the archive be so totally open to any person on the planet not >actually a member of the group???? > >Glen Atkinson. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 08:17:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20059 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:17:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09630; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:11:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09420 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:06:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.01675380@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 8:09:52 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 16 Dec 99 08:10:54 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 16 Dec 99 08:10:34 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:10:32 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <134AAA45180B@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2708 Hmmm, had it been at my school (admittedly it was a Waldorf school), the teachers would have made the lipstick girls clean the mirrors themselves. Nothing teaches you respect for something like having to contribute your OWN elbow grease. Anita > > >>> > >>According to a radio report, a middle school in Oregon was faced > >>with a unique problem. A number of girls were beginning to use lipstick > >and > >>would put it on in the bathroom. That was fine, but after they put on > >their > >>lipstick they would press their lips to the mirror leaving dozens of > >little > >>lip prints. > > > >Finally the principal decided that something had to be done. > >> > >She called all the girls to the bathroom and met them there with the > >>maintenance man. > >> > >>She explained that all these lip prints were causing a major problem > >for > >>the custodian who had to clean the mirrors every night. > > > >To demonstrate how difficult it was to clean the mirrors, she asked the > >maintenance guy to > >>clean one of the mirrors. > >> > >>He took out a long-handled squeegee, dipped it into the toilet and then > >>cleaned the mirror. > > > >Since then there have been no lip prints on the mirror. > > > >There are teachers---and then there are TEACHERS!!! > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 09:12:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20559 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:12:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13341; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:07:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmx06.iname.net (rmx06.iname.net [165.251.8.205]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12969 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:03:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from web11.mail.com by rmx06.iname.net (8.9.1/8.8.0) with SMTP id JAA00009 ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:07:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <381273910.945353273895.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:07:53 -0500 (EST) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 206.80.120.5 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2709 Read it again, Anita. The point is the cleaning solution used. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Pam ------Original Message------ From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" agecon.uga.edu> Hmmm, had it been at my school (admittedly it was a Waldorf school), the teachers would have made the lipstick girls clean the mirrors themselves. Nothing teaches you respect for something like having to contribute your OWN elbow grease. Anita > > >>> > >>According to a radio report, a middle school in Oregon was faced > >>with a unique problem. A number of girls were beginning to use lipstick > >and > >>would put it on in the bathroom. That was fine, but after they put on > >their > >>lipstick they would press their lips to the mirror leaving dozens of > >little > >>lip prints. > > > >Finally the principal decided that something had to be done. > >> > >She called all the girls to the bathroom and met them there with the > >>maintenance man. > >> > >>She explained that all these lip prints were causing a major problem > >for > >>the custodian who had to clean the mirrors every night. > > > >To demonstrate how difficult it was to clean the mirrors, she asked the > >maintenance guy to > >>clean one of the mirrors. > >> > >>He took out a long-handled squeegee, dipped it into the toilet and then > >>cleaned the mirror. > > > >Since then there have been no lip prints on the mirror. > > > >There are teachers---and then there are TEACHERS!!! > > > > ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 09:41:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21045 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:41:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15919; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:35:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15083 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:30:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.174] (pm3shep4-163-197.intrepid.net [209.190.163.197]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA29891 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:34:23 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000a01bf47bc$be825720$263548ce@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:35:53 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: archives Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2710 A similar issue is being raised by some members of the list who are better prepared to offer advice than they are to offer financial support. The suggestion has been a PREMIUM BD Now! for subscribers and a LIGHT BD Now! for 'lurkers.' One obvious feature of the PREMIUM BD Now! would be a line-by-line search engine of the BD Now! webpage text files. (If you haven't been on the list for long, you wouldn't know how much text was being posted to the BD Now! webpages. Without time (due to farming and educational endeavors) and without fast equipment (to allow me to be productive when I do have time), this publishing has diminished, however, it was all timeless. Most of it DOES NOT appear on the BD Now! menu, (You have to know the address to get to it.) Honeybee Symposium, Barefoot Farmer articles, the Tomkins interview, the Ken Kesey interview, the Wendell Berry interview, some choice articles by Podlinsky, TWO CHAPTERS from Nicolas' Joly's wonderful "Wine from Sky to Earth," more work by Woody, Hugh Lovel's entire UAI site, and so on. How nice to have the thoughts of these minds pop up in detail when you type something like 'celestial influences' into the search window, getting back answers so much richer than you had anticipated? In addition, imagine being able to type 'Grasp the Nettle' into a search window and come up with both JPI's price for the book AND a review of the book! Or, to enter "BD 500" and spend the rest of the day reading references to making and using 500. It boggles the mind! (And wait until the MESSAGE ARCHIVES are part of the same search! Wow!!) To set up the kind of search that is effective and efficient, I'm going to have to pay for the service. That's ok, it's worth it. But how do we share that expense AND will I defeat what I think OUR mission is here by charging to use this service? In other words, aren't we working together here to provide a source of information for exactly the sort of person who knows so little about biodynamics that they'd never consider paying to join a discussion group in order to get more information? That's my assumption: that the purpose of the work here is to get the information out to EXACTLY that person who has NEVER heard of biodynamics and yet is totally RIPE for the principles of biodynamics to take root in their mind, body and soul. And at the same time to supply RICH DEEP FAST and WARM support for both beginning and advanced practitioners. So, for me, the 'subscription option' defeats what, at least, I had hoped to accomplish with the BD Now! work. I don't think for a moment that everyone who uses BD Now! will be willing to financially support it - - hell, I've got national publications and newsletter editors who reprint from BD Now! and won't even give us the courtesy of sending a complimentary copy of their publication! (and several not even crediting BD Now!, let alone supplying subscription information!!) - - what I do think is that the few people who are sharing this aim of making biodynamic information - - and discussion - - available to as many people in the world as possible (jeez, did you see the website hitlist the other day? People from 'nameless' 'former Soviet' countries. I'm pretty impressed.) are going to have to take up the slack and contribute more than their share. (And a few already are. Thanks!) Kenny Ausubel, founder of Seeds of Change, said the other night "Raising Funds is as Hard as Raising the Dead." Unfortunately, I'm learning that. Did you read the exerpt from Walter's article that I posted last night? Raising funds for biodynamic education, support and reference is raising funds for SAVING LIVES. Sure, we all need to understand RS' indications much better than we do now, and, sure, we all need to practice biodynamics more fully and earnestly than we do now, but, above all else, we need to get as many hearts, minds and HANDS as we can to apply this wonderful work to as much of this dying planet as possible and to help freshen, to whatever degree imaginable, the vitality of ourselves and the people we live among. +++ I've got the Shep Ogden thing this weekend (http://www.claymont.org/csa2), maybe after that I can set up a demonstration of the search engine. And maybe we can discuss whether it should be for a few or for every, everyone. Thanks - -Allan Balliett csa@claymont.org ============================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing the highest quality food and medicinal crops to promote human wellness and development. A PAINLESS WAY to SUPPORT RESTORATIVE AGRICULTURE EDUCATION on the WEB ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can help defray the costs of supporting BD Now! by making your book or music purchases from AMAZON.COM through the search engine at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/search.html Every purchase you make at amazon.com, if you enter through the above link, earns BD Now! a 5 percent 'dividend' at absolutely no cost to you!! Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, please contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com To UnSubscribe to BD Now!, send 'unsubscribe bdnow' in the body of a message to listproc@envirolink.org (you must send the msg from the email address you subscribed from!) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 09:59:15 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21289 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:59:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17290; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:54:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17000 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:50:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d147.infoserve.net [199.175.157.147]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id GAA28083 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 06:58:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002501bf47d6$291b6d60$939dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: honeybee symp. Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 06:55:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01BF4792.78BFDB60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2711 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BF4792.78BFDB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Allan, What is the address for the honeybee symposium? many thanks in advance, Michael ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BF4792.78BFDB60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Allan,
 
  What is the address for the honeybee=20 symposium?
many thanks in advance,=20 Michael
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BF4792.78BFDB60-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 09:59:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21298 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:59:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17325; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:54:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [154.11.89.179]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17246 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 59 invoked from network); 16 Dec 1999 14:57:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.29.164) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 16 Dec 1999 14:57:48 -0000 Message-ID: <044901bf47d4$0ba58920$9a2cd2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:44:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2712 Yeah, this particular 'eau de toilette' wasn't the sort of thing these young girls wanted to pucker up to, eh? LOL! -----Original Message----- From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, December 16, 1999 9:14 AM Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints >Read it again, Anita. The point is the cleaning solution used. An ounce of >prevention is worth a pound of cure. >Pam > >------Original Message------ >From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" agecon.uga.edu> > >Hmmm, had it been at my school (admittedly it was a Waldorf school), >the teachers would have made the lipstick girls clean the mirrors >themselves. Nothing teaches you respect for something like having to >contribute your OWN elbow grease. Anita > >> >> >>> >> >>According to a radio report, a middle school in Oregon was faced >> >>with a unique problem. A number of girls were beginning to use lipstick >> >and >> >>would put it on in the bathroom. That was fine, but after they put on >> >their >> >>lipstick they would press their lips to the mirror leaving dozens of >> >little >> >>lip prints. >> > >> >Finally the principal decided that something had to be done. >> >> >> >She called all the girls to the bathroom and met them there with the >> >>maintenance man. >> >> >> >>She explained that all these lip prints were causing a major problem >> >for >> >>the custodian who had to clean the mirrors every night. >> > >> >To demonstrate how difficult it was to clean the mirrors, she asked the >> >maintenance guy to >> >>clean one of the mirrors. >> >> >> >>He took out a long-handled squeegee, dipped it into the toilet and then >> >>cleaned the mirror. >> > >> >Since then there have been no lip prints on the mirror. >> > >> >There are teachers---and then there are TEACHERS!!! >> > >> >> > >----------------------------------------------- >FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com >Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 12:15:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26373 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:15:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00093; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:09:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29763 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:06:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.174] (pm3shep1-163-28.intrepid.net [209.190.163.28]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA31068 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:10:35 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002501bf47d6$291b6d60$939dafc7@333> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:03:19 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: honeybee symp. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2713 > Dear Allan, What is the address for the honeybee symposium? many >thanks in advance, Michael Dear Michael - The symposium is in transition right now. I was just trying to find out the address recently. Still waiting for a reply. I'll let you know when I hear something. Last I heard from Jim Jensen, he was going to put his time and energy into playing the stock market. I wish I was joking. (His primary income is as landlord, I believe.) I hope he keeps providing housing for bees!! :-) -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 12:15:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26372 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:15:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00144; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:10:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29781 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:06:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.174] (pm3shep1-163-28.intrepid.net [209.190.163.28]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA31078 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:10:38 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:13:36 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: NEW SCIENTIST: The True Costs of Chem. Farming Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA29783 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2714 http://www.newscientist.com/ns/19991218/newsstory4.html You may want to take a look at this report on the hidden costs of industrial farming. We all know about them; it appears that this study is one of the first attempts to actually present them. Industrial farming has a very EXPENSIVE impact upon all areas of society. -Allan >From the report: "FARMING costs Britain more than £2.3 billion each year, according to the most detailed study yet of the industry's wider balance sheet. This bill, which includes the cost of cleaning up pollution, repairing habitats and coping with sickness caused by farming, almost equals the industry's income. The study puts figures on the external costs of farming--the costs that farmers themselves don't have to pay for. It comes up with a cost of £208 per hectare, which is double the amount suggested by previous, less detailed, studies of the costs in Germany and the US. But the survey's chief author, Jules Pretty of the Centre for Environment and Society at the University of Essex, still describes this figure as "very conservative". This report by Jules Pretty on externalities in UK agriculture et al can provide insights for our own efforts toward local food systems in the US./Linda >From: Linda Elswick >Subject: Externalities of UK agriculture >Cc: >Bcc: >X-Attachments: > >Dear all > >Thought you might like to see today's New Scientist report and leader. >Details of our work (Essex Univ, Euro Envt Agency, RSPB, CLM) on the >externalities of UK agriculture. Total annual costs - £2.3 bn; equal to >£200+ per ha. > >Merry Christmas to one and all - and don't ponder too long on those >external costs whilst munching on mince pies, turkey, plum pudding etc. > >Warmest regards > > >Jules > > >http://www.newscientist.com/ns/19991218/newsstory4.html > >http://www.newscientist.com/ns/19991218/editorial.html > > > >*************************************************** >Professor Jules Pretty >Director, Centre for Environment and Society >University of Essex >Wivenhoe Park >Colchester CO4 3SQ, UK > >Tel: +44-(0)1206-873323 >Fax: +44-(0)1206-873416 >E-mail: jpretty@essex.ac.uk >Website: http://www2.essex.ac.uk/ces/ >**************************************************** > ============================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing the highest quality food and medicinal crops to promote human wellness and development. A PAINLESS WAY to SUPPORT RESTORATIVE AGRICULTURE EDUCATION on the WEB ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can help defray the costs of supporting BD Now! by making your book or music purchases from AMAZON.COM through the search engine at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/search.html Every purchase you make at amazon.com, if you enter through the above link, earns BD Now! a 5 percent 'dividend' at absolutely no cost to you!! Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, please contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com To UnSubscribe to BD Now!, send 'unsubscribe bdnow' in the body of a message to listproc@envirolink.org (you must send the msg from the email address you subscribed from!) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 12:19:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26435 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:19:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00571; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:14:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00264 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:11:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.016794C5@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:14:24 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 16 Dec 99 12:15:27 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 16 Dec 99 12:14:59 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:14:56 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints Priority: normal In-reply-to: <044901bf47d4$0ba58920$9a2cd2d8@windows98> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <134EBD42114E@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2715 Yeah, you are both right. I missed the toilet reference in the first reading. Now I see why it's such a funny story! Oops! Now I'm laughing... > Yeah, this particular 'eau de toilette' wasn't the sort of thing these young > girls wanted to pucker up to, eh? > > LOL! > -----Original Message----- > From: Pam DeTray > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Thursday, December 16, 1999 9:14 AM > Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints > > > >Read it again, Anita. The point is the cleaning solution used. An ounce of > >prevention is worth a pound of cure. > >Pam > > > >------Original Message------ > >From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" agecon.uga.edu> > > > >Hmmm, had it been at my school (admittedly it was a Waldorf school), > >the teachers would have made the lipstick girls clean the mirrors > >themselves. Nothing teaches you respect for something like having to > >contribute your OWN elbow grease. Anita > > > >> > >> >>> > >> >>According to a radio report, a middle school in Oregon was faced > >> >>with a unique problem. A number of girls were beginning to use > lipstick > >> >and > >> >>would put it on in the bathroom. That was fine, but after they put on > >> >their > >> >>lipstick they would press their lips to the mirror leaving dozens of > >> >little > >> >>lip prints. > >> > > >> >Finally the principal decided that something had to be done. > >> >> > >> >She called all the girls to the bathroom and met them there with the > >> >>maintenance man. > >> >> > >> >>She explained that all these lip prints were causing a major problem > >> >for > >> >>the custodian who had to clean the mirrors every night. > >> > > >> >To demonstrate how difficult it was to clean the mirrors, she asked the > >> >maintenance guy to > >> >>clean one of the mirrors. > >> >> > >> >>He took out a long-handled squeegee, dipped it into the toilet and > then > >> >>cleaned the mirror. > >> > > >> >Since then there have been no lip prints on the mirror. > >> > > >> >There are teachers---and then there are TEACHERS!!! > >> > > >> > >> > > > >----------------------------------------------- > >FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com > >Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 12:24:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26494 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:24:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01062; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:19:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00547 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:14:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.137] (du-148-233-78-137.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMU0048YFNK8U@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:09:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:10:08 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <134AAA45180B@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2716 > It >is your assurance of quality. I don't know if you have any real assurance >otherwise. > >Best wishes, >Hugh Lovel >Blairsville, Georgia Best Wishes Hugh ? yeah, sure. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 12:38:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26698 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:38:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02817; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:33:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (web1.vphos.net [207.102.129.200]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02385 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.94]) by web1.vphos.net ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:36:31 -0800 Message-ID: <004a01bf47ec$194a0ac0$5ecb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: Subject: Grow Your Own; Cook Your Own Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:33:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2717 Hugh and the List: <> Ah, Hugh, when you hit the nail on the head you really whack it! I'm just back from my first trip away from the farm in more than a year and I was appalled at the "food" I found along the way. It doesn't even seem possible to get a decent cup of coffee out there, short of going to a yuppified cappucino bar and spending two bucks for it. Your prescription is the correct one, in view of the depths to which things seem to have fallen out there, vibration wise. I become more grateful daily to be in a situation where 90 percent of what we eat at Aurora Farm we grow right here, biodynamically; and most of the rest comes from other BD growers, mail order--things we don't grow ourselves like grains, ginger and lemons. Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: Hugh Lovel To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 7:55 AM Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints > Anita Graf writes: > > >Hmmm, had it been at my school (admittedly it was a Waldorf school), > >the teachers would have made the lipstick girls clean the mirrors > >themselves. Nothing teaches you respect for something like having to > >contribute your OWN elbow grease. Anita > > > > >> >>> > >> >>According to a radio report, a middle school in Oregon was faced > >> >>with a unique problem. A number of girls were beginning to use lipstick > >> >and > >> >>would put it on in the bathroom. That was fine, but after they put on > >> >their > >> >>lipstick they would press their lips to the mirror leaving dozens of > >> >little > >> >>lip prints. > >> > > >> >Finally the principal decided that something had to be done. > >> >> > >> >She called all the girls to the bathroom and met them there with the > >> >>maintenance man. > >> >> > >> >>She explained that all these lip prints were causing a major problem > >> >for > >> >>the custodian who had to clean the mirrors every night. > >> > > >> >To demonstrate how difficult it was to clean the mirrors, she asked the > >> >maintenance guy to > >> >>clean one of the mirrors. > >> >> > >> >>He took out a long-handled squeegee, dipped it into the toilet and then > >> >>cleaned the mirror. > >> > > >> >Since then there have been no lip prints on the mirror. > >> > > >> >There are teachers---and then there are TEACHERS!!! > >> > > > > > Dear Anita and List Readers, > > I have no doubt that at most Waldorf schools that Germanic disciplinary > ethic you describe would have prevailed. However, I don't doubt that some > further lip prints would have been considered, committed in the privacy of > an empty bathroom like the other grafitti on the walls. This principal may > have been thinking of such when she came up with a method that ensured no > further lip prints. > > I am reminded of someone telling me the other day about a television > presentation that, by way of hidden cameras, documented some of the gross > and awful things food workers do to food when they are sure no one is > looking. Yes, as you might guess, contamination with mucous, serum, excreta > and sexual fluids. Really gross and dangerous stuff, done at various levels > of concealed hatred, resentment and revenge. > > Quite frequently I mention to folks that when I'm on the road I like to eat > at a Waffle House or some such equivalent (not available on the West Coast) > because I can see them preparing my food. Not one in ten folks evince any > real understanding of what I might be talking about, but it isn't just that > I can see my food escapes microwaving. > > I've been involved in food handling for over 25 years and I suspect I'm not > particularly naive about people and their various possible behaviors. I'm > not so eager to eat somewhere that the food workers can smear my cinnamon > toast with feces or blood or expectorate/ejaculate in my salad dressing. > > Believe me I DO understand how disgusting this is. But, pray, let me not > shrink from exposing it. It is just this kind of awareness I believe should > be part and parcel of this and other lists. The fact is that a very low, > sleazy vibe prevails out there in America and it is getting lower all the > time. It is a covertly hostile vibe, and is particularly prevalent amongst > employees of the government, but something similar goes for wage slaves in > general. Covert. Hostility. It is something to think about. Most people > eating out--and people eat out in droves, particularly in chain restaurants > and fast food dives in America--have very little idea of what they may be > eating. Ever wonder why you had an off flavor in something you just ate? > Well, did you see it being prepared? Think about it. The same goes for > processed foods. > > I suppose I may provoke another round of censure for my occasionally not > too genteel posts. So? Despite my highly refined sophistication I deal > daily without shrinking with really gutsy stuff. For some people out of > sight probably IS out of mind. But for me? Hardly. Violet IS one of my > favorite colors, but there also is a lot of brown and black in biodynamic > practice. I think it is something we all have to learn to deal with. So > wipe the tops of your pop-top cans clean before opening and hope you got a > batch that wasn't contaminated on the interior. > > And consider--the above is good reason, as if chemical agriculture wasn't > enough, to grow your own gardens or participate in a CSA and learn > sufficient culinary skills to prepare your foods and beverages at home. It > is your assurance of quality. I don't know if you have any real assurance > otherwise. > > Best wishes, > Hugh Lovel > Blairsville, Georgia > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 12:43:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26760 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:43:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03377; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:38:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from wave.sheridan.wy.us (root@wave.sheridan.wy.us [206.54.116.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02984 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:34:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from dbrown (vcn1.usrnet-2.sher.wy.vcn.com [209.193.70.123]) by wave.sheridan.wy.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA22389 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:35:48 -0700 Message-ID: <008201bf47f5$5a7f1220$7b46c1d1@dbrown.wavecom.net> From: "Audrey Malan" To: Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:42:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2718 Yuck - that story hurts my heart. Why was it so important to clean the lip prints and to stop the girls from doing that? Gees! Why not just leave the mirrors as they were - let the girls fill them up entirely with lip prints, creating what in my imagination would be a very interesting and creative bit of art in what is probably an institutionally ugly bathroom. Eventually the girls would have figured out, on their own, what they needed and wanted in their bathroom - keeping a bit of the mirror clear to check their lipstick, or whatever. I don't like the tone of that story - hostile and smug - "we showed them" - give me a break, we should be encouraging those girls to "show" us. The principle's actions were disrespectful, disempowering and controlling - more of the old energy, which I sincerely hope is on its way out! blessings, Audrey P.S. The principle's "clever" actions were fear-based - to control this behavior, vs. love-based, how can we be respectful and honor them. -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Lovel To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 9:13 PM Subject: OFF Fwd: Lip prints > >>>> >>>According to a radio report, a middle school in Oregon was faced >>>with a unique problem. A number of girls were beginning to use lipstick >>and >>>would put it on in the bathroom. That was fine, but after they put on >>their >>>lipstick they would press their lips to the mirror leaving dozens of >>little >>>lip prints. >> >>Finally the principal decided that something had to be done. >>> >>She called all the girls to the bathroom and met them there with the >>>maintenance man. >>> >>>She explained that all these lip prints were causing a major problem >>for >>>the custodian who had to clean the mirrors every night. >> >>To demonstrate how difficult it was to clean the mirrors, she asked the >>maintenance guy to >>>clean one of the mirrors. >>> >>>He took out a long-handled squeegee, dipped it into the toilet and then >>>cleaned the mirror. >> >>Since then there have been no lip prints on the mirror. >> >>There are teachers---and then there are TEACHERS!!! >> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 13:07:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27163 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:07:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06301; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:01:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw.cc.uga.edu (mailgw.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04742 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:48:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from agecon.uga.edu (agecon1.agecon.uga.edu) by mailgw.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.01679D6F@mailgw.cc.uga.edu>; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:51:05 -0500 Received: from AGECON/SpoolDir by agecon.uga.edu (Mercury 1.43); 16 Dec 99 12:52:08 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by AGECON (Mercury 1.43); 16 Dec 99 12:51:58 EST5EDT From: "Anita Graf (Staff)" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:51:57 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints Priority: normal In-reply-to: <008201bf47f5$5a7f1220$7b46c1d1@dbrown.wavecom.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <134F5B200E52@agecon.uga.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2719 Audrey wrote: > ...Why was it so important to clean > the lip prints and to stop the girls from doing that? Gees! Why > not just leave the mirrors as they were - let the girls fill them up > entirely with lip prints, creating what in my imagination would be a > very interesting and creative bit of art... Yes, I rather like the idea of leaving the lip prints on the mirrors too -- especially since teenagers (and that includes most of us over the age of 20 also) are WAAAAAAY too appearance-oriented. Fewer reflective surfaces in general might go a long way toward getting us to focus on more productive and important aspects of who we are -- might get us to focus more on the reflections of ourselves that shows through our relationships with others and through our deeds in the world. I'm not anti-mirrors (some of my best home decorations are mirrors...), but I think it might be grand to give them less emphasis -- like by arting 'em up with lip prints. Now, if we could just find a way to stick hug prints all over society... Hee hee, happy holidays. Anita From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 13:13:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27226 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:13:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06803; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:06:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from wave.sheridan.wy.us (root@wave.sheridan.wy.us [206.54.116.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06533 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:03:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from dbrown (vcn1.usrnet-2.sher.wy.vcn.com [209.193.70.123]) by wave.sheridan.wy.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA24580 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:04:59 -0700 Message-ID: <012e01bf47f9$6ddb9880$7b46c1d1@dbrown.wavecom.net> From: "Audrey Malan" To: Subject: Re: Maria Thun/Stella Natura Wall Calendar Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:11:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2720 Allen, should we call you to reserve a calendar, then mail the check, or would you rather credit card over the phone? - Audrey -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 5:59 PM Subject: Re: Maria Thun/Stella Natura Wall Calendar >>will someone post the address so i can send to recieve this calendar >>thanks > >Hi, Kate - > >An (Broadway) 'Angel' came to me and offered me a roll of these posters >calendars for fundraising for BD Now! (And, no, they did not give them to >us!) We'll be taking the orders and shipping from the Eastern Panhandle. >Visa/MasterCard/Discover are accepted, so are checks, money orders, and >blessed cash. (US FUNDS, please!) > >Current pricing is $15 for the poster calendar and $4 for shipping in a >tube in the US. Postage to the rest of the world will have to be determined. > >Allan Balliett >Claymont Farm CSA >BIODYNAMICS Now! >207 W. High Street >POB 3047 >Shepherdstown, WV 25443 >Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 >FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 > >Please note: this will NOT be an on-going offer. There are not more >calendars available to us and at the rate they are going, we won't have >them through the weekend. I am so enthralled with the information on the >'back' of the calendar (philosophy of using the moon and stars to plant), >that I'm definitely going to post two of them in the farm kitchen wall - - >one face out and the next BACK out! > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 13:40:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28920 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:40:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09954; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:35:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09460 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:31:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([210.55.144.43]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991216183521.TGCG27648.mta3-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:35:21 +1300 Message-ID: <385930F2.2698@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:35:30 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNOW Subject: compost preps test results Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2721 EFFECTS OF BIODYNAMIC PREPARATIONS ON COMPOST DEVELOPMENT Author(s): CARPENTER-BOGGS LYNNE REGANOLD JOHN P KENNEDY ANN C Interpretive Summary: Practitioners of biodynamic agriculture have claimed that the biodynamic preparations increase microbial activities in composting and yield a better product, yet reliable scientific investigation of this claim is scarce. This study examined the effects of biodynamic compost preparations on the maturation of compost from farm waste. The biodynamic preparations are fermented herbs and minerals, used in very small amounts as additions to compost and as field sprays on biodynamic farms. Six of these preparations (numbered 502 through 507), when added to composting dairy manure and bedding, caused consistent changes in the developing compost. Biodynamically treated composts showed higher temperatures, faster maturation, and more nitrate than composts that had not received the biodynamic compost preparations but had received an inoculation of field soil. This research impacts farmers, particularly livestock farmers, who recycle their farm wastes as fertilizer. This research also impacts industrial composting and bioremediation companies. The findings of this research support the idea that use of the biodynamic compost preparations could speed the composting process, better destroy pathogens and weed seeds in the material by maintaining high temperatures longer, and change the value of the resulting compost as a fertilizer by increasing the amount of nitrate. Keywords: pm-10 microbial diversity nutrient cycling northwest usa biomarkers sustainable agriculture organic matter pollution Contact: USDA-ARS LAND MGT/WATER C P.O. BOX 646421, WSU PULLMAN WA 99164-6421 FAX: (509)335-3842 Email: akennedy@wsu.edu Approved Date: 1998-03-12 TEKTRAN United States Department of Agriculture Agricultural Research Service Updated: 1998-12-18 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 13:53:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29123 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:53:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11362; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:48:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10932 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:44:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([210.55.144.43]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991216184751.THNO27648.mta3-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:47:51 +1300 Message-ID: <385933E0.7736@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:48:00 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNOW Subject: archives Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2722 Mike The pages I have seen are coming directly out of the archives and not through a posting on a web page. Some were 'dirty washing' some just short posts, out of context and just clogging up the web. Some good stuff. I was unaware of the change that the archives were open to all and sundry, with no willful exercise needed other than loading Biodynamics into a search engine. It does mean BDNOW is NOT a place for issues that have particular and unique interest to the BD community should be discussed. It is an education and information forum. So be it. I do not wish to inhibit peoples learning in anyway, I just like to be clear about the rules of the game and am sorry I missed the notification to this effect. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 14:13:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29411 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:13:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13406; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:08:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12977 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:04:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.181] (pm3shep4-163-181.intrepid.net [209.190.163.181]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24045 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:08:16 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <012e01bf47f9$6ddb9880$7b46c1d1@dbrown.wavecom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:03:47 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Maria Thun/Stella Natura Wall Calendar Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2723 Audrey - You can reserve via email and mail a check. Money orders are a favorite because they cause less trouble at the bank. Charge cards, of course, pay less on this end. However, if you do want to call with your number, you are welcome to. The voice mail is digital and, as far as I've been told, is secure, so leave your number AND shipping directions there. (304) 724-6763. Thanks! -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 14:13:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29419 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:13:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13478; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:08:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12985 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.181] (pm3shep4-163-181.intrepid.net [209.190.163.181]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24056 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:08:18 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <385933E0.7736@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:08:11 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: archives Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2724 >Mike >The pages I have seen are coming directly out of the archives and not >through a posting on a web page. > >Some were 'dirty washing' some just short posts, out of context and just >clogging up the web. Some good stuff. > >I was unaware of the change that the archives were open to all and >sundry, with no willful exercise needed other than loading Biodynamics >into a search engine. It does mean BDNOW is NOT a place for issues that >have particular and unique interest to the BD community should be >discussed. It is an education and information forum. So be it. > >I do not wish to inhibit peoples learning in anyway, I just like to be >clear about the rules of the game and am sorry I missed the notification >to this effect. > >Glen A. You've lost me in the first three paragraphs, Glen. Would you mind clarifying your concerns and your cause(s) for concern? BD Now! is still a moderated discussion group and enrollment is by permission, it is not automatic. The archives have ALWAYS been open, but they are not 'copyright free.' BD Now! **IS** meant for discussing issues that are unique to 'garden quality biodynamic farming' and to the 'biodynamic quality of Life.' That means we can discuss quite a lot here, each with our own set of perceptual skills. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 14:13:45 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29427 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:13:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13543; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:09:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12991 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:04:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.181] (pm3shep4-163-181.intrepid.net [209.190.163.181]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24072 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:08:21 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004a01bf47ec$194a0ac0$5ecb6cce@netacc.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:11:19 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Grow Your Own; Cook Your Own Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2725 >From Woody - >It doesn't even seem possible >to get a decent cup of coffee out there, short of going to a yuppified >cappucino bar and spending two bucks for it. Just an off-topic reality check: does anyone else feel that the yuppified coffee shops have slipped way below acceptable in the last year or so also? I mean, if I pick up a cup of coffee at Borders (reading the Timber Press books while Maura runs errands), I ALWAYS feel like it's hot water with flavoring added. My own Nicaraguan BD coffee, or Guatamalen PEACE COFFEE are so rich and full in comparison. What say?? -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 17:12:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03424 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:12:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00880; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:06:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA00718 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:04:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([210.55.179.84]) by mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991216220724.MPTM50393.mta4-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:07:24 +1300 Message-ID: <385962A4.2DA3@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:07:33 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: archives References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2726 Allan Balliett wrote: > You've lost me in the first three paragraphs, Glen. Would you mind > clarifying your concerns and your cause(s) for concern? Apart from clogging up the net effect of having every little half comment running around, we then have other half expressed information as a first contact to the public. Then there is the 'housekeeping' conversations which do not really have any place in the completely public arena. Being one prepared to take the risk of expressing divergent views to that of BD beaurocracy, I have done so in the context of BDNOW being a group of BD interested adults who have chosen to be present. If you go digging into archives then you are also stating intent and interest. To have the archives just freely floating around being accessed through search engines is a whole other reality and not one I would willing share 'housekeeping' in. What this means to me is BDNOW is an educational and knowledge sharing community, and not a forum for BD housekeeping, and so be it. My shock is some how greater in that I have not come across this fact in my last few years on the net. Glen A. > > BD Now! is still a moderated discussion group and enrollment is by > permission, it is not automatic. The archives have ALWAYS been open, but > they are not 'copyright free.' BD Now! **IS** meant for discussing issues > that are unique to 'garden quality biodynamic farming' and to the > 'biodynamic quality of Life.' That means we can discuss quite a lot here, > each with our own set of perceptual skills. > > -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 17:21:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03594 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:21:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01842; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01682 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:14:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip103.computer.net [140.186.252.103]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA26377 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:18:18 -0500 (EST) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:21:29 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: New Paradigm for Farm Ownership Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2727 Kate Clarke wrote (in reference to Equity & fundraising ideas): <> And you actually have time to farm as well?!!! Congratulations! You must have a lot of energy, ambition, vision or all of the above, Kate! I wish you much continued enthusiam, funding, and many helpers in the next millenium! And to all on Bd Now as Well in this Holiday Season- Blessings on You & Yours & all of your many endeavors! Warm Regards, Jane Sherry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 17:26:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03681 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:26:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA02180; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:20:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01833 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:15:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip103.computer.net [140.186.252.103]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA26440 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:19:28 -0500 (EST) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:22:39 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: December 12, 1999 - December 18, 1999 Message-ID: <907FC07F6A47123805256849007ADDDC.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id RAA01835 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2728 Calendar of the Soul [December 12, 1999 - December 18, 1999] Thirty-seventh Week (December 15-21) WINTER To carry spirit light into world-winter-night My heart is ardently impelled, That shining seeds of soul Take root in grounds of worlds And Word Divine through senses' darkness Resounds, transfiguring all life. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Zu tragen Geisteslichte in Welterwinternacht Erstrebet selig meines Herzens Trieb, Dass leuchtend Seelenkeime In Weltengründen wurzeln, Und Gotteswort im Sinnesdunkel Verklärend alles Sein durchtönt. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+37 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 17:48:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03930 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:48:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03791; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:39:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03555 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:36:46 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp317.cy-net.net [208.21.195.126]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07200 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:40:42 -0600 Message-Id: <199912162240.QAA07200@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:40:16 -0600 Subject: Re: archives Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3858C195.E9B@xtra.co.nz> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2729 I tried to bring this up a couple of months ago. Folk were going into archives of such as BD NOW, SANET, OGL, and using the material posted to 'pad' their own websites. Sometimes they included the sender's name, but no actual references nor credits. (The prominent 'collector' at that time was Tom of BagelHole, not a member of any one of the above groups to my knowledge.) The general consensus of most of the groups was: Well, if it's posted to a discussion group, then it's ok to steal. I don't like it, and am now careful about what I post to various groups. On 16 Dec 99, at 23:40, Glen Atkinson wrote: While doing some general searching of the net on Biodynamics I have been pulling up random pages from the BDNOW archives, which just seem to be floating around out there, out of context or relationship to any earlier or future parts of the discussion. Is this a good idea????? Should the archive be so totally open to any person on the planet not actually a member of the group???? Glen Atkinson. Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 20:06:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05487 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:06:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA14625; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:59:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from web216.mail.yahoo.com (web216.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.116]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA14392 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:54:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 16963 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Dec 1999 00:58:39 -0000 Message-ID: <19991217005839.16962.qmail@web216.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.194.109.130] by web216.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:58:39 PST Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:58:39 -0800 (PST) From: SRC Subject: Nasty Lip Prints To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2730 --- Audrey Malan wrote: > Yuck - that story hurts my heart. Why was it so important to clean the lip > prints and to stop the girls from doing that? Bingo! Thanks, Audrey! When I first read the story, I agreed with the squeegee, but your perspective changed my head around 180 degrees. You are right. Thank you. Stephen ===== "Don't hold yourself hostage to the good opinion of other people": Dennis Hopper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 22:53:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06766 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:53:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24199; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:47:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24062 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:45:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.85] (du-148-233-78-85.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMV00K38982PK@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:48:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:48:27 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: archives In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <385933E0.7736@xtra.co.nz> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id WAA24063 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2731 > >BD Now! is still a moderated discussion group and enrollment is by >permission, it is not automatic. The archives have ALWAYS been open, but >they are not 'copyright free.' BD Now! **IS** meant for discussing issues >that are unique to 'garden quality biodynamic farming' and to the >'biodynamic quality of Life.' That means we can discuss quite a lot here, >each with our own set of perceptual skills. > >-Allan Dear Allan: How can you deal with a person that used a post that I wrote to the list, put it as a question for him (which was not) and with an authority (which I do not recognize) answer it. And then posted it in a website to promote a Biodynamic "college" course that he is teaching and making profit from ? I tried to reason with him, I wrote to him directly stating that I thought the least he could do was to ask for my authorization to use my name and my words. The first time I tried to get an answer from him, he played stupid and said that he was not aware of the issue. The next time I tried, he simply ignored me. What is really disappointing is that the person I am talking about presents himself as an expert in Biodynamics and Anthroposophy, and in his postings he is always trying to present a leveled position. IMO he is only serving himself and he is using his knowledge of Steiner to hide a very poor, unethical and cynical personality. I strongly believe that you should copyright the BD-Now archives and that at least people should ask from those involved for their authorization to use material and names from the list. Is this too much to ask ? Judge by yourselves http://www.kolisko.org/philosophy.htm Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 22:56:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06786 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24482; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:51:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24322 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:49:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.181] (pm3shep4-163-191.intrepid.net [209.190.163.191]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA09199 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:53:45 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199912162240.QAA07200@portal.txcyber.com> References: <3858C195.E9B@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:56:21 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: archives Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2732 >I tried to bring this up a couple of months ago. Folk were going into >archives of such as BD NOW, SANET, OGL, and using the >material posted to 'pad' their own websites. Sometimes they >included the sender's name, but no actual references nor credits. >(The prominent 'collector' at that time was Tom of BagelHole, not a >member of any one of the above groups to my knowledge.) >The general consensus of most of the groups was: Well, if it's >posted to a discussion group, then it's ok to steal. >I don't like it, and am now careful about what I post to various >groups. >On 16 Dec 99, at 23:40, Glen Atkinson wrote: > >While doing some general searching of the net on Biodynamics I >have >been pulling up random pages from the BDNOW archives, which >just seem >to be floating around out there, out of context or relationship to any >earlier or future parts of the discussion. > >Is this a good idea????? > >Should the archive be so totally open to any person on the planet >not >actually a member of the group???? > >Glen Atkinson. > > >Martha, (Texas) >http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html >See TexCat Web page: >http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 22:57:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06799 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:57:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24532; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:52:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24323 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:49:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.181] (pm3shep4-163-191.intrepid.net [209.190.163.191]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA09191 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:53:43 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <385962A4.2DA3@xtra.co.nz> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:55:15 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: archives Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2733 Glen - There have typically been almost 2000 hits on the list archive during a month for a long time. In October, I believe there were over 3000 hits. I don't see a lot of bad coming from this (although it does appear there has been some abuse. It's amazing how fast individuals lose their 'manners' when they succomb to the illusion of non-accountability.) Glen - You should also be aware that EVERY KEYSTROKE YOU HAVE EVER PUT ON THE NET IS ARCHIVED EVALUATED AND STORED AGAINST YOUR NAME BY THE US GOVERNMENT (for one). I thought that was obvious to everyone, especially since the government gave us this joyful toy and Bill and Al actually go to elementary schools to teach kids how to use it!! :-) The search engine the archive will get will reside on a BD Now! page, not on LYCOS, if that helps you at all... :-) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 16 23:11:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA06923 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 23:11:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27477; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 23:06:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx.webound.com (root@pop.webound.com [216.90.136.28]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26401 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 23:01:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [216.90.139.51] (gvl139-91.dial.webound.com [216.90.139.91]) by mx.webound.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/jsb) with ESMTP id WAA71994 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:05:17 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:05:17 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: genegerue@pop.webound.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <134AAA45180B@agecon.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Gene GeRue Subject: Microwave oven use, was Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2734 Hugh: >Quite frequently I mention to folks that when I'm on the road I like to eat >at a Waffle House or some such equivalent (not available on the West Coast) >because I can see them preparing my food. Not one in ten folks evince any >real understanding of what I might be talking about, but it isn't just that >I can see my food escapes microwaving. I resisted the urgings of many to get a microwave oven for years because the process just seemed unnatural. About a year ago I received a late-model oven at a price I could not resist--free. I have searched the Net for microwave information and am unable to discern that the process is more than agitation of water molecules. I welcome your instruction. Gene From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 00:35:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA07699 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 00:35:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA05169; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 00:26:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA04988 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 00:21:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.80] (r-67.159.alltel.net [166.102.67.159]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id XAA21120 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 23:25:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <134AAA45180B@agecon.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 00:11:30 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Microwave oven use, was Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2735 >Hugh: > >>Quite frequently I mention to folks that when I'm on the road I like to eat >>at a Waffle House or some such equivalent (not available on the West Coast) >>because I can see them preparing my food. Not one in ten folks evince any >>real understanding of what I might be talking about, but it isn't just that >>I can see my food escapes microwaving. > >I resisted the urgings of many to get a microwave oven for years because >the process just seemed unnatural. About a year ago I received a late-model >oven at a price I could not resist--free. I have searched the Net for >microwave information and am unable to discern that the process is more >than agitation of water molecules. I welcome your instruction. > >Gene Dear Gene, While free may seem an irresistible "price" I suggest you manage to resist. What makes heat heat is not merely the temperature it brings about, it also involves the wavelengths of radiation and the chemical reactions these wavelengths cause. John Ott did extensive research on the varying wavelengths available to us in sunlight and other more artificial sources of radiation. It might be a good idea to look up his discoveries in a library so time. It turns out that the reason wood heat yields the tastiest cooked foods is the distribution of wavelengths that come from burning it are the most compatible with the chemistry of foods, and the resulting compounds are tasty as well as harmonious with the body chemistry. Gas heat is pretty much second to wood in its ability to yield digestible and metabolizable compounds. Electric is not very good, and microwave cookery yields such a wide variety of unmetabolizable compounds that they are classified as unique radiolytic by-products. This is because the high energy of microwaves has a tendency to ionize whatever atoms it hits in the molecular structure of the food, causing virtually random breaks and recombinations in the chemical structures. These are so nearly random that the resulting compounds are considered to be unique. While they may not be as carcinogenic as chloroflourohydrocarbons since they don't generally involve the substitution of halogens for hydrogens in the carbon chemistry, many nonetheless are likely to carcinogenic or at least toxic. Plus they don't taste that great. There seems to be a debate on SANET about whether or not the lifetime cancer risk of Americans has reached one in two by now. Considering how widespread microwave ovens are, to say nothing of agricultural chemicals, I suspect if it hasn't reached this ratio it soon will. I believe you'll improve your odds considerably if you do NOT use microwave ovens. Of course, if you eat foods brimming in vitality you'll improve your odds a lot more. All the more reason to grow BD or belong to a BD CSA and cook at home. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 05:12:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA09960 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 05:12:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA15529; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 05:07:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA15420 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 05:02:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from bdl (pm0a16.ben.sover.net [207.136.200.16]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA29035 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 05:05:30 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) bdl from pm0a16.ben.sover.net [207.136.200.16] 207.136.200.16 Fri, 17 Dec 1999 05:05:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <010501bf4875$020ad0e0$5dc888cf@bdl> From: "B. David Lively" To: Subject: unsubscribe Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 04:55:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2736 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 08:14:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11561 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:14:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22727; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:59:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA22579 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:56:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-70.s70.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.70] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11ywz7-0005Te-00; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:59:49 -0500 Message-ID: <385A3413.C3ED3577@erols.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:01:07 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "BD Now! Listserve" Subject: Wood Ash Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2737 Greetings! As I heat my house with wood, I end up with pails of wood ash that I'd like to be able to use. Can't dump them into the garden or compost pile because it would make the soil more alkaline (raising the pH). Wonder if there's anthing to be done with them other than dumping them behind the barn? TIA, Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 09:28:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12272 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:28:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28827; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:13:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28697 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.117] (pm3shep3-163-128.intrepid.net [209.190.163.128]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA29221 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:15:17 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <134AAA45180B@agecon.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:12:49 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: re: OFF: Microwave oven use, was Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2738 We threw our microwave out over a dozen years ago (and my father-in-law promptly brought it home with him....now here's a guy who puts the infant hi-chair RIGHT in FRONT of the microwave door, so you even have to move the grandkids to get in the door of the microwave...oh, that's another thing, most microwaves 'leak' an 'acceptable' amount of 'radiation.') We threw it out after a naturopath I was interviewing told me about the effect of a microwave on applied kinesiology tests within 50 ft of such a range. (Substantial weakness of the constitution.) Right on top of this as the Kushi Institute's announcement that microwave cooked food by using the energy that's in the food and that chi was substantially reduced or altered in nuked foods (but they recommended it for industrial foods because less energy=less chaos). In addition, it was discovered that the trays in Stauffer-style frozen foods leached carcinogens if used more than once in the microwave. (Of course, everyone I know has a collection of 'free' microwave dishes.) God help everyone: there are people who dry medicinal herbs for resale in microwave ovens. Some are actually PROUD of their effeciency! Have I ever missed the microwave? Hmmm, no, I guess I never have. -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 10:29:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13315 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:29:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03249; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:14:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from fb02.eng00.mindspring.net (fb02.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.229.20]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02798 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:09:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.174.201.250] (user-33qtifq.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.201.250]) by fb02.eng00.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16871 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:13:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199912171513.KAA16871@fb02.eng00.mindspring.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:13:41 -0800 Subject: Query: Ashing of Rodents From: "Kirk Grace" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2739 Help, I'm being invaded by ground squirrels! I am the new manager of a farm that is newly planted to vineyard. Because it was just developed it is a highly disturbed site, and the ground squirrels have exploited the rent in the space-time continuum. Their transporter has locked on to this vineyard and I am worried that if I don't stop them here, we need not worry about Y2K or the WTO. Their ability to mind-meld has made it very difficult to shoot or trap them because they know my every move. I think I can hear them laugh as they run for shelter. Hope this doesn't sound too sarcastic, but if I don't laugh I'm going to cry. We are transitioning to organic and Biodynamic agriculture, but the development of this piece was very conventional. I have used smoke bombs and a really nifty propane/oxygen gun, but I feel the results are mixed. The current issue of _Biodynamics_ recommends ashing of rodent skins during the "transit of Venus through Scorpio" between December 31 and January 24. My question is how many skins do I need? How far can I spread the ash of one squirrel skin? This site is 30 acres and approx. 10 of them have a high squirrel population. Or are there any other ideas out there? To be honest I want to bait them, but ..... Thanks Kirk Robert Sinskey Vineyards From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 10:52:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13682 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:52:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05233; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:37:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx.webound.com (root@mx.webound.com [216.90.136.28]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04865 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:33:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [216.90.139.3] (gvl139-35.dial.webound.com [216.90.139.35]) by mx.webound.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/jsb) with ESMTP id JAA05031 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:37:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:37:45 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: genegerue@pop.webound.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <134AAA45180B@agecon.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Gene GeRue Subject: Re: Microwave oven use, was Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2740 Hugh wrote: >. . . microwave cookery yields such a wide variety of unmetabolizable >compounds that they are classified as unique radiolytic by-products. This >is because the high energy of microwaves has a tendency to ionize whatever atoms it hits in the molecular structure of the food, causing virtually random breaks and recombinations in the chemical structures. These are so nearly random that the resulting compounds are considered to be unique. While they may not be as carcinogenic as chloroflourohydrocarbons since they don't generally involve the substitution of halogens for hydrogens in the carbon chemistry, many nonetheless are likely to carcinogenic or at least toxic. Plus they don't taste that great.< Thank you for your kind response. Not being educated in physics, I would profit most from access to medical studies or other research that shows results from eating microwaved foods. Surely someone has fed rats MW foods and observed the results. Alas, I am thus far unable to find publications on the subject. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 12:18:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15548 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:18:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11904; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:03:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11737 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:02:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.80] (r-67.87.alltel.net [166.102.67.87]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id LAA15554 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:06:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <385A3413.C3ED3577@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:11:19 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Wood Ash Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2741 >Greetings! > >As I heat my house with wood, I end up with pails of wood ash that I'd >like to be able to use. > >Can't dump them into the garden or compost pile because it would make >the soil more alkaline (raising the pH). > >Wonder if there's anthing to be done with them other than dumping them >behind the barn? > >TIA, > >Robert. Robert, Dumping them behind the barn? That's not only wasteful, it's toxic. I find wood ashes invaluable scattered evenly on the garden, particularly on the pea, bean and beet patches. They also are a wonderful boon, and I can't get enough of them, scattered evenly on the pasture. I make sure to pick out any nails, staples or other metal objects, however. I don't want my cows coming down with hardware disease. I haven't gotten to the hayfield with wood ashes as I never have enough. Occasionally I make lye by boiling ashes from good clean wood and filtering the solids out. This is far better in making hominy than the Red Devil lye out of the supermarket since it contains a natural mixture of alkali and alkaline bases and not just sodium hydroxide. Yum! With good, fresh hominy there are tortillas, corn chips, arepas, and hominy for soups and stews. Dry the hominy and run it through a coffee grinder and you've got grits, an old Southern standby. So the problem is not what to do with wood ashes. The problem is getting enough for the year from heating with wood. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 12:18:38 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15556 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:18:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11861; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:03:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d07.mx.aol.com (imo-d07.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.39]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09808 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:37:03 -0500 (EST) From: NEILLCO@aol.com Received: from NEILLCO@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.0.8cae0e92 (3862) for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:40:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.8cae0e92.258bc17f@aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:40:31 EST Subject: Re: Microwave oven use, was Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2742 Living in the city it can be difficult to find a decent food source. Have any ideas concerning growing in tiny places, like balconies? Hydroponics seems to be a bit removed from a proper food growing situation to me. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 13:28:29 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17661 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:28:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20330; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:13:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [154.11.89.179]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19755 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:09:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 24393 invoked from network); 17 Dec 1999 18:13:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.32.254) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 17 Dec 1999 18:13:09 -0000 Message-ID: <054501bf48b7$c7b4e780$9a2cd2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: Wood Ash Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:54:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2743 Standard "organic" practice would be, use them in the field to fertilize legumes (enhanced rhizobial activity), in the orchard, or, most likely best of all, close the nutrient circle by returning them to the woodlot that your firewood is cut from. Now if you don't have a hayfield with legumes on it, or an orchard, or a woodlot, you might still find neighbors who do, who would recognize the value of woodashes. Woodashes have about 2/3 the liming value of limestone itself, but contain potentially large amounts of potassium, and that is what I understand to be the problem with loading them on the garden. You can throw yer cation balance all out of whack, if you overdo it. I started this before, now I see Hugh's answer.....add them to your food! BTW, it is easy to screen dry ashes to remove any metal bits or chunks, and make it metal free and easy flowing.....or a magnet could be used, too, I guess. Behind the barn is definitely out, though, eh? Frank Teuton -----Original Message----- From: Robert Farr To: BD Now! Listserve Date: Friday, December 17, 1999 8:07 AM Subject: Wood Ash >Greetings! > >As I heat my house with wood, I end up with pails of wood ash that I'd >like to be able to use. > >Can't dump them into the garden or compost pile because it would make >the soil more alkaline (raising the pH). > >Wonder if there's anthing to be done with them other than dumping them >behind the barn? > >TIA, > >Robert. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 13:28:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17669 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:28:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20497; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:13:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19844 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:10:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-158.s158.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.158] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11z1sn-0003LO-00; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:13:38 -0500 Message-ID: <385A7D9F.5DB24285@erols.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:14:55 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Wood Ash References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2744 Thanks, Hugh! I'm feeling better now - I can actually *use* ALL of my wood. I'm a little confused as to how much to use in my veggie rows, though. Don't ashes raise the pH??? Or have I been mislead here by "conventional wisdom"? R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 13:28:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17680 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:28:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20538; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:14:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA20016 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:11:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-158.s158.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.158] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11z1tm-0003UL-00; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:14:38 -0500 Message-ID: <385A7DDC.BFD7F7A8@erols.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:15:56 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Wood Ash References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2745 Hugh: Oh, and also - why is it toxic behind the barn and not on my crop rows? Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 13:37:24 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17787 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:37:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21629; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:22:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21353 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:20:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.117]) by mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991217182332.SLFI50393.mta4-rme@garudix> for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 07:23:32 +1300 Message-ID: <385A7F9B.56A7@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 07:23:23 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Yelstsins madness Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2746 Yeltsin Puts Nuclear Missiles on 'Red Alert' NewsMax.com December 14, 1999 Still furious over United States criticism of Russia's war in Chechnya, President Boris Yeltsin has placed his most deadly intercontinental nuclear missiles on "combat alert." The Moscow bureau of the London Express is reporting that, on his orders, 10 of Russia's newest, most sophisticated weapons — capable of striking the U.S. — have been deployed in full readiness. This unprecedented dramatic warning has Western observers nervous about the possibility of an inadvertent launch at a time when it is known that Russia's missiles are not fully reprogrammed to avert all millennium-year computer failures. Russia just recently sent computer and missile experts to Washington to work with American specialists in averting Y2K glitches. Yelstin's hawkish missile deployment is just the latest move of a laundry list of recent military developments in Russia. In October, Yeltsin's Prime Minister announced Russian government plans for a massive military build-up, with plans to raise the military budget by 50 percent. Last month, the Russian Navy fired two intercontinental ballistic missiles from a submarine. They struck a target range more than 3,000 miles away on Russia's Kamchatka peninsula. Since the Kosovo war, Russian military and civilian leaders have made clear that their war game exercises are preparation for a conflict with the U.S. Toronto's Globe and Mail reported the most recent missile test firing was the first time Russia has launched an ICBM from a nuclear submarine in four years and the third time in a month it had fired off missiles. The paper called it "an intimidating wave of test launches." At the same time, Russia has been deploying subs and planes on cat-and-mouse surveillance with U.S. ships and jets, which the Toronto paper said is "the first time in years that the Russians have played such Cold War games." TOPOL-M DEPLOYMENT Yeltsin's deployment for combat of the missiles — the Topol-Ms — is the most serious military development yet. With a striking range of 6,200 miles, the Topol-Ms are based in the Saratov region, 400 miles southeast of Moscow. According to the Express: Although the West was advised in advance, as required by nuclear treaty commitments, the rarity of this move can be regarded only as a deliberate and serious show of force to underscore Yeltsin's outrage. It coincided with his return to Russia after a trip to China, where he warned Clinton and other Western leaders to stay out of Russia's business in Chechnya. Yeltsin brandished Russia's still great missile threat by thundering, "Russia is a great power that possesses a full nuclear arsenal. It is we who will dictate." Recently, Gen. Vladimir Yakovlev, the Russian missiles-forces commander, also bragged, "Of the five nuclear powers, none of the others will match these weapons in the next few years. "Topol-M is able to breach any anti-missile system that exists in the world and any which will be built in the near future." Also troubled by the missile alert are Russian politicians and analysts who regard Yeltsin as too ill to have his finger on the trigger of the world's second largest nuclear power. Britain's leading independent nuclear expert, John Large, said, "There was an unwritten agreement for both Russia and the U.S. not to deploy nuclear weapons before the Y2K period. "Even if the weapons themselves are OK — which I very much doubt, since their testing system has been effectively down and out for three years — they would have to work within the strategic defense system there, which is full of Y2K glitches. "There is no real need for it — it is a risk they don't need to take. "I am not suggesting that these nuclear bombs will go off on their own, but we do expect to see the defense systems playing up a bit." See related NewsMax.com story: Russia Launches New Missile as Warning For more on Russia, visit Hot Topics. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 13:41:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17971 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22146; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:27:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21938 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:25:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.117]) by mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991217182914.SLRW50393.mta4-rme@garudix> for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 07:29:14 +1300 Message-ID: <385A80EF.34D1@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 07:29:03 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: re Archives -Kolisko Institute Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2747 Judge by yourselves http://www.kolisko.org/philosophy.htm So Andrew what about this. Guillermo has expressed his objection to your actions and as a man of "integrity, morality, and untouchable quality" your actions seem somewhat contradictory?????????????? Whats doin? Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 15:15:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19970 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:15:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00791; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:01:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from web217.mail.yahoo.com (web217.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.117]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00630 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:58:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 9383 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Dec 1999 20:02:47 -0000 Message-ID: <19991217200247.9382.qmail@web217.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.194.109.194] by web217.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:02:47 PST Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:02:47 -0800 (PST) From: SRC Subject: Yelstsins madness source? To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2748 --- Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage wrote: > Yeltsin Puts Nuclear Missiles on 'Red Alert' > > NewsMax.com > December 14, 1999 > > > Still furious over United States criticism of Russia's > war in Chechnya, > President Boris Yeltsin has placed his most deadly > intercontinental > nuclear missiles on "combat alert." > This is truly disturbing. But what is NewsMax and what was their source? This is too serious to be snipping and reposting without confirmation. Thank you. Stephen ===== "Don't hold yourself hostage to the good opinion of other people": Dennis Hopper BOOK: "Light on the Return Path": Prime explication of the "Hopi Prophecies"; by John Kimmey, for decades the assistant and travelling companion of Elder David Monongye. The voice of the One-Hearted Path speaks. www.SacredMedia.com Merry Christmas, Joy to the World! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 15:29:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20395 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:29:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01869; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:15:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (web1.vphos.net [207.102.129.200]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01468 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:10:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.113]) by web1.vphos.net ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:14:35 -0800 Message-ID: <000d01bf48cb$59062880$71cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: Subject: MFLF: Join Today! Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:13:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2749 A Pre-Solstice Gift from British Columbia Manifesto The Mad Farmer Liberation Front by Wendell Berry Love the quick profit, the annual raise, vacation with pay. Want more of everything ready-made. Be afraid to know your neighbors and to die. And you will have a window in your head. Not even your future will be a mystery any more. Your mind will be punched in a card and shut away in a little drawer. When they want you to buy something they will call you. When they want you to die for profit they will let you know. So, friends, every day do something that won't compute. Love the Lord. Love the world. Work for nothing. Take all that you have and be poor. Love someone who does not deserve it. Denounce the government and embrace the flag. Hope to live in that free republic for which it stands. Give your approval to all you cannot understand. Praise ignorance, for what man has not encountered he has not destroyed. Ask the questions that have no answers. Invest in the millenium. Plant sequoias. Say that your main crop is the forest that you did not plant, that you will not live to harvest. Say that the leaves are harvested when they have rotted into the mold. Call that profit. Prophesy such returns. Put your faith in the two inches of humus that will build under the trees every thousand years. Listen to carrion - put your ear close, and hear the faint chattering of the songs that are to come. Expect the end of the world. Laugh. Laughter is immeasurable. Be joyful though you have considered all the facts. So long as women do not go cheap for power, please women more than men. Ask yourself Will this satisfy a woman satisfied to bear a child? Will this disturb the sleep of a woman near to giving birth? Go with your love to the fields. Lie down in the shade. Rest your head in her lap. Swear allegiance to what is nighest your thoughts. As soon as the generals and the politicos can predict the motions of your mind, lose it. Leave it as a sign to mark the false trail, the way you didn't go. Be like the fox who makes more tracks than necessary, some in the wrong direction. Practice resurrection. Manifesto The Mad Farmer Liberation Front" from The Country of Marriage, copyright © 1973 by Wendell Berry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 17:43:22 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22200 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13643; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:36:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13334 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:32:52 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp208.cy-net.net [208.21.195.17]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19039 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:36:32 -0600 Message-Id: <199912172236.QAA19039@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:36:09 -0600 Subject: Re: Wood Ash / Lye Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <385A3413.C3ED3577@erols.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2750 Hugh, I make soap and would love the 'exact' methods for getting to the lye process. I reLYE on Red Devil for my soap, which I've found has become scarce and expensive around here. I also work for a company that manufactures chemicals for the computer mfg industry and makes (among other nasties) 'ultra pure' hydrochloric acid. I'm trying to figure out if this could be used in place of lye at some juncture. Maybe by diluting it with DE Water? (Jan 1 2000, the plant is closing down (hooray!), but anything left in the tanks is going to have to be moved in some controlled manner.) What's a 55 gal drum of HCL between friends? Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 18:02:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22401 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:02:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14790; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:54:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14549 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:51:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.117] (pm3shep2-163-107.intrepid.net [209.190.163.107]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA07943 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:54:53 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199912171513.KAA16871@fb02.eng00.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:54:07 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Query: Ashing of Rodents Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2751 Dear Robert - Where is your vineyard located? What hort. zone? Thanks -Allan >Help, I'm being invaded by ground squirrels! I am the new manager of a farm >that is newly planted to vineyard. Because it was just developed it is a >highly disturbed site, and the ground squirrels have exploited the rent in >the space-time continuum. Their transporter has locked on to this vineyard >and I am worried that if I don't stop them here, we need not worry about Y2K >or the WTO. Their ability to mind-meld has made it very difficult to shoot >or trap them because they know my every move. I think I can hear them laugh >as they run for shelter. Hope this doesn't sound too sarcastic, but if I >don't laugh I'm going to cry. We are transitioning to organic and Biodynamic >agriculture, but the development of this piece was very conventional. > >I have used smoke bombs and a really nifty propane/oxygen gun, but I feel >the results are mixed. The current issue of _Biodynamics_ recommends ashing >of rodent skins during the "transit of Venus through Scorpio" between >December 31 and January 24. My question is how many skins do I need? How far >can I spread the ash of one squirrel skin? This site is 30 acres and approx. >10 of them have a high squirrel population. Or are there any other ideas out >there? To be honest I want to bait them, but ..... >Thanks >Kirk >Robert Sinskey Vineyards From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 18:07:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22475 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:07:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14745; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:53:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14540 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:50:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.117] (pm3shep2-163-107.intrepid.net [209.190.163.107]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA07919 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:54:48 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <134AAA45180B@agecon.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:56:23 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Microwave oven use, was Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2752 >Thank you for your kind response. Not being educated in physics, I would >profit most from access to medical studies or other research that shows >results from eating microwaved foods. Surely someone has fed rats MW foods >and observed the results. Alas, I am thus far unable to find publications >on the subject. There were actually health warnings out a couple of years ago about 'mad molecules' migrating from twice-used 'micro-wavable' plastic trays. I'll let you know next time I see something. I also understand that Pottengers cat experiments were carried out with microwaved cat food with very dire results, but I can't point you to the study right now. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 18:09:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22505 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:09:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15183; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:03:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14956 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:59:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.117] (pm3shep2-163-107.intrepid.net [209.190.163.107]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA09610 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:03:13 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <385A7DDC.BFD7F7A8@erols.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:05:54 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Wood Ash Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2753 >Hugh: > >Oh, and also - why is it toxic behind the barn and not on my crop rows? > >Robert. Robert - What is your pH? Here, across the river, I have 7.5 at Claymont and 8.5 in Shepherdstown. Everytime we turn on the hose, it's a fresh application of lime. It's a 'problem' I'm going to address this coming season..and maybe sooner. MSOGBA has suggested that I bring my pH below 7. -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 19:57:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA23461 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:57:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA20924; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:46:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA20619 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:41:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.80] (r-67.95.alltel.net [166.102.67.95]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA24733 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:45:33 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <385A7D9F.5DB24285@erols.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:50:16 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Wood Ash Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2754 >Thanks, Hugh! > >I'm feeling better now - I can actually *use* ALL of my wood. > >I'm a little confused as to how much to use in my veggie rows, though. >Don't ashes raise the pH??? Or have I been mislead here by >"conventional wisdom"? > >R. Dear Robert, Yes, wood ashes, and ashes in general, raise the pH. If you have a high pH in your garden already you may need to avoid using them there. As Frank points out they may raise the potash levels higher than desirable if used too often in the same location. I like to dust them on like powdered sugar on a cake donut, which is not too thick. If you ever use too much grow clover, peas and soybeans there for a few cycles. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 19:58:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA23482 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:58:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA21080; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:50:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA21025 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:48:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.80] (r-67.95.alltel.net [166.102.67.95]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA07851 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:52:45 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199912172236.QAA19039@portal.txcyber.com> References: <385A3413.C3ED3577@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:57:28 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Wood Ash / Lye Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2755 >Hugh, I make soap and would love the 'exact' methods for getting >to the lye process. I reLYE on Red Devil for my soap, which I've >found has become scarce and expensive around here. >I also work for a company that manufactures chemicals for the >computer mfg industry and makes (among other nasties) 'ultra >pure' hydrochloric acid. I'm trying to figure out if this could be used >in place of lye at some juncture. Maybe by diluting it with DE >Water? (Jan 1 2000, the plant is closing down (hooray!), but >anything left in the tanks is going to have to be moved in some >controlled manner.) What's a 55 gal drum of HCL between friends? >Martha, (Texas) >http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html >See TexCat Web page: >http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html Martha, To make lye I fill a pot about 2/3 with wood ashes and then nearly to the brim with water. I bring it up close to a boil and filter it. I don't know the exact percentages of the various hydroxides, but it is concentrated. I think in order to know just how much to add in your soap making you need to have some idea of the concentrations. As for hydrochloric acid this is the opposite of a hydroxide (base) as it is acid rather than alkaline. I can't see where it would be any help at all in soap making. Best, Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 17 21:11:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA24040 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:11:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24785; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:04:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24693 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:03:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.174.208.172] (user-33qtk5c.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.208.172]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA02760 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:07:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199912180207.VAA02760@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:07:37 -0800 Subject: Re: Query: Ashing of Rodents From: "Kirk Grace" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2756 >Dear Robert - > >Where is your vineyard located? What hort. zone? Thanks -Allan Allan Sorry for the oversight of my location regarding my original query on ground squirrels. We are in the Carneros Region of the Napa Valley, California, and to be honest I don't know my horticultural zone. We are classically Mediterranian with a strong bay and coastal influence. The winemaker began a transition to sustainable practices in '91, and with my joining the operation in late '97 we are now 150 acres with a commitment to farm organically, one farm will also be farmed biodynamically as we learn how to incorporate the infrastructure into the rest of our operation. I am usually a lurker, only participating when I have a specific need or comment. But I feel compelled to express something more important than my first posting. I have been a member of a few list serves, mostly in the historical and environmental history fields. I am surprised that people would consider a web forum such as BD Now as anything less than public. The concern regarding intellectual property is is valid. But with each posting we are in effect publishing, just like putting a book in a library. Why can't someone access a discussion thread and interpret it as long as proper credit is given to the thinker of the thought or the writer of the prose? I went to http://www.kolisko.org/philosophy.htm, and, although the interpretation may be different, credit was given to both BD Now and Guillermo Romero (the only technical mistake being the omission of the date and web address which makes it difficult to verify original meaning). Even copyrighted (which I am sure BD Now is), I can't see where there was a violation of intellectual property since credit was recognized. I began following this list only a week ago to help advance my farming. At that time the main topic was lambasting the WTO and lamenting the fact that corporations and governments are subverting our independence and censuring democracy - some even maintained that we live in a police state. If we decide to limit access to material and information aren't we the pot calling the kettle black? I just returned to the BD Now web page advertising this list serve to be sure I read it right the first time (pardon my omission of the web address). [BD Now] is also the only non-sectarian one. BD Now is devoted to growing better food in order to grow better people to in order grow better communities in order to heal this ailing aging planet. There are no hidden agendas, no inscrutable hierarchies that huddle with backs to the newcomers. BD Now! is people working with people ? - sharing their own ideas and experience - - for the practical implementation of spiritual agriculture. The ideals expressed here are democratic, and, to me, completely true to the idea of an open forum. To be sure, the web is an evolving place where opportunity and opportunism coexist. Trespasses will happen. Intellectual property needs to be respected. But to even toy with the idea of limiting access to archives is elitist and is contrary to the potential represented by the web. Although I am new to Steiner's work, I assume that he would be uncomfortable with limiting access as well. To me the web might be the realization of Jefferson's yeoman farmer - an informed and engaged citizen shepherding the land - don't limit access to this truly democratic forum. Kirk Grace Vineyard Manager Robert Sinskey Vineyards Napa, California ---------- >From: Allan Balliett >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Re: Query: Ashing of Rodents >Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999, 1:54 PM > >Dear Robert - > >Where is your vineyard located? What hort. zone? Thanks -Allan > >>Help, I'm being invaded by ground squirrels! I am the new manager of a farm >>that is newly planted to vineyard. Because it was just developed it is a >>highly disturbed site, and the ground squirrels have exploited the rent in >>the space-time continuum. Their transporter has locked on to this vineyard >>and I am worried that if I don't stop them here, we need not worry about Y2K >>or the WTO. Their ability to mind-meld has made it very difficult to shoot >>or trap them because they know my every move. I think I can hear them laugh >>as they run for shelter. Hope this doesn't sound too sarcastic, but if I >>don't laugh I'm going to cry. We are transitioning to organic and Biodynamic >>agriculture, but the development of this piece was very conventional. >> >>I have used smoke bombs and a really nifty propane/oxygen gun, but I feel >>the results are mixed. The current issue of _Biodynamics_ recommends ashing >>of rodent skins during the "transit of Venus through Scorpio" between >>December 31 and January 24. My question is how many skins do I need? How far >>can I spread the ash of one squirrel skin? This site is 30 acres and approx. >>10 of them have a high squirrel population. Or are there any other ideas out >>there? To be honest I want to bait them, but ..... >>Thanks >>Kirk >>Robert Sinskey Vineyards > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 18 17:19:30 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01416 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 17:19:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA12720; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 17:14:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from cobalt1-he.global.net.uk (cobalt1-he.global.net.uk [195.147.246.161]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA12517 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 17:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from p18s05a02.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.149.25] helo=compaq) by cobalt1-he.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11zS70-0001C0-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 14:14:03 -0800 Message-ID: <385C05F4.55B7@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 22:08:52 +0000 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Microwave oven use, was Re: OFF Fwd: Lip prints References: <134AAA45180B@agecon.uga.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2757 Allan Balliett wrote: > > >Thank you for your kind response. Not being educated in physics, I would > >profit most from access to medical studies or other research that shows > >results from eating microwaved foods. Surely someone has fed rats MW foods > >and observed the results. Alas, I am thus far unable to find publications > >on the subject. > > There were actually health warnings out a couple of years ago about 'mad > molecules' migrating from twice-used 'micro-wavable' plastic trays. I'll > let you know next time I see something. I also understand that Pottengers > cat experiments were carried out with microwaved cat food with very dire > results, but I can't point you to the study right now. > > -Allan Thanks to Raum & Zeitz Microwaves News, Journal of Hospital infections effects on human beings decrease in hemoglobin increase is red blood cells Increase in leukocytes Highers cholestrol Reduces cells that counter disease Increase in bacterial activity Precancerous changed in cells Effects on Food increases acidity Damages protein molecules Enlarges fat cells Decreases folic acid Increases risks of E Coli,salmonella I am at present campaigning in UK to have Eating Houses at least tell their customers whether any dish is microwaved or not,for to me it is important that customers be made aware of just what people are doing to their food and what are the implications. Rex Tyler -- ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 18 19:42:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02111 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:42:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19557; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:38:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA19465 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:36:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.104.48.65] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id SAA243504 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:40:16 -0600 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:44:19 -0600 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, From: "Irene E. Sadowski" Subject: comment on-line: genetically engineered foods Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2758 >P A N U P S >Pesticide Action Network Updates Service >Action Alert: GE Food Safety > >December 17, 1999 > >The Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the U.S. government agency >responsible for food safety, recently held a series of public >meetings on its policy regarding genetically engineered (GE) food. > >FDA will also accept written comments on the policy until January >13, 1999. Write FDA and tell them that current policies do not meet >the public's need for information and do not adequately protect the >public from potential health risks. Urge FDA: > >* to institute a mandatory regulatory program, in place of its >current system of voluntary consultations, to assess the safety of >genetically engineered foods and to insure that no such products >posing a significant health risk are put on the market. FDA should >develop detailed protocols for assessing risks including >allergenicity, toxicity, and nutritional changes; require long-term >feeding studies using the whole engineered food; and thoroughly >review company testing. All data submitted for FDA assessments >should be part of an open and transparent public process that allows >opportunities for citizens to comment on pending approvals. > >* to require any GE product which passes FDA's safety review and is >marketed to carry a label stating that "This product contains a >genetically engineered material, or was produced with a genetically >engineered material and contains genes from XX sources." Labels >should be mandatory for all genetically engineered products, whether >or not current testing techniques can detect foreign DNA. The label >should be straightforward and informational and not include >value-laden words like "improved with" or "enhanced by" genetic >engineering. > >* to require imported genetically engineered food, which currently >receives no safety review, to undergo the same review as domestic >foods. > >* to withdraw all GE foods from the market until they are subject to >thorough safety assessments; and > >* to place a moratorium on all approvals of new GE food products >until required safety and labeling programs are in place. > >Comments may be sent directly to FDA by visiting their Web site at >http://www.fda.gov/oc/biotech/ then click on "Comment on Federal >Register Notice." From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 18 19:47:47 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02137 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:47:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA12702; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:46:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12211 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:40:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from [128.104.48.65] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id SAA243504 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:40:16 -0600 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:44:19 -0600 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, From: "Irene E. Sadowski" Subject: comment on-line: genetically engineered foods Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2759 >P A N U P S >Pesticide Action Network Updates Service >Action Alert: GE Food Safety > >December 17, 1999 > >The Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the U.S. government agency >responsible for food safety, recently held a series of public >meetings on its policy regarding genetically engineered (GE) food. > >FDA will also accept written comments on the policy until January >13, 1999. Write FDA and tell them that current policies do not meet >the public's need for information and do not adequately protect the >public from potential health risks. Urge FDA: > >* to institute a mandatory regulatory program, in place of its >current system of voluntary consultations, to assess the safety of >genetically engineered foods and to insure that no such products >posing a significant health risk are put on the market. FDA should >develop detailed protocols for assessing risks including >allergenicity, toxicity, and nutritional changes; require long-term >feeding studies using the whole engineered food; and thoroughly >review company testing. All data submitted for FDA assessments >should be part of an open and transparent public process that allows >opportunities for citizens to comment on pending approvals. > >* to require any GE product which passes FDA's safety review and is >marketed to carry a label stating that "This product contains a >genetically engineered material, or was produced with a genetically >engineered material and contains genes from XX sources." Labels >should be mandatory for all genetically engineered products, whether >or not current testing techniques can detect foreign DNA. The label >should be straightforward and informational and not include >value-laden words like "improved with" or "enhanced by" genetic >engineering. > >* to require imported genetically engineered food, which currently >receives no safety review, to undergo the same review as domestic >foods. > >* to withdraw all GE foods from the market until they are subject to >thorough safety assessments; and > >* to place a moratorium on all approvals of new GE food products >until required safety and labeling programs are in place. > >Comments may be sent directly to FDA by visiting their Web site at >http://www.fda.gov/oc/biotech/ then click on "Comment on Federal >Register Notice." From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 18 20:33:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02361 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 20:33:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA21700; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 20:29:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx.webound.com (root@pop.webound.com [216.90.136.28]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA21506 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 20:25:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [216.90.139.116] (gvl139-14.dial.webound.com [216.90.139.14]) by mx.webound.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/jsb) with ESMTP id TAA16952 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:29:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:29:13 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: genegerue@pop.webound.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <385C05F4.55B7@globalnet.co.uk> References: <134AAA45180B@agecon.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Gene GeRue Subject: Re: Microwave oven use Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2760 Rex Tyler: >Thanks to Raum & Zeitz Microwaves News, Journal of Hospital infections >effects on human beings >decrease in hemoglobin >increase is red blood cells >Increase in leukocytes >Highers cholestrol >Reduces cells that counter disease >Increase in bacterial activity >Precancerous changed in cells > >Effects on Food >increases acidity >Damages protein molecules >Enlarges fat cells >Decreases folic acid >Increases risks of E Coli,salmonella > >I am at present campaigning in UK to have Eating Houses at least tell >their customers whether any dish is microwaved or not,for to me it is >important that customers be made aware of just what people are doing to >their food and what are the implications. I searched for Raum & Zeitz Microwaves News. First hit is in Conspiracies and Extremism, at http://conspiracies.about.com/culture/conspiracies/msubnews.htm?iam=dp&rf=dp Unable to find them the specific article. Then to http://broadcastnews.about.com/medianews/broadcastnews/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?si te=http://www.wagatv.com/ENG/ which is "Closed for Renovations." Tried narrowing search in Hotbot. Raum Zeitz gets sites only in German. I do not read German. Back to Dogpile. Raum & Zeitz gets only sites in German. I appreciate your interest. If you know of any Net sites in English where one may read what Raum & Zeitz have to say about microwave ovens, I would be most appreciative to learn the urls. Gene From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 19 01:54:20 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA03975 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 01:54:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA05025; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 01:48:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com [207.46.181.18]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA04971 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 01:47:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 63.23.31.216 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 22:51:12 -0800 Message-ID: <002b01bf49ee$7216bc80$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: re Archives -Kolisko Institute Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 22:58:23 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2761 Dear Glen, I have have been completely overwhelmed with the end of the semester work here. I taught 7 courses (roughly 250 students) this semester and have just finished finals week and grades - not to mention lots of work on the farm and the kids' many end of the school year events - so I am not up to date at all on BDNow and what is happening. I am also afraid, I missed any commentary about the Kolisko Institute site. Can you explain? I did not receive any emails from Guillermo directly. I will have to go back and look at the archive, since I have deleted all but the direct emails over the last few weeks. Who said I was and what did I supposedly do that would have offended this perspective? Andrew >Judge by yourselves http://www.kolisko.org/philosophy.htm > >So Andrew >what about this. Guillermo has expressed his objection to your actions >and as a man of "integrity, morality, and untouchable quality" your >actions seem somewhat contradictory?????????????? > >Whats doin? > >Glen A. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 19 08:26:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05447 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 08:26:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15820; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 08:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15747 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 08:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.31] (pm3shep2-163-104.intrepid.net [209.190.163.104]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA25428; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 08:23:52 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:26:28 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD: Julia Butterfly on her way down Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2762 >Mime-Version: 1.0 >X-Sender: hayduke%efmedia.org@mail.resourcesltd.com >Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 12:27:21 -0800 >To: BIOREGIONAL >From: Hayduke Rocks! >Subject: Julia Butterfly on her way down >Reply-To: bioregional@csf.colorado.edu >Sender: owner-bioregional@csf.colorado.edu > > >Hayduke Rocks! an Earth First! Media Center > > >Sorry for any duplicate postings. I'm too excited to type! > >Andy Caffrey >Hayduke Rocks! > > > >Tree-Sitter, Lumber Firm Reach an Agreement > > Preservation: Julia 'Butterfly' Hill will leave her >perch in a redwood, while $50,000 will go to Humboldt State University. > > >By MARY CURTIUS, Times Staff Writer > > SAN FRANCISCO--More than two years after she began her marathon >tree-sit, Julia "Butterfly" Hill has reached an agreement with Pacific >Lumber Co. to leave the giant Humboldt County redwood tree she has called >home, a company spokesman said Friday. > Hill could not be reached for comment, but a spokeswoman said she >will hold a news conference today "in person" in the former logging town >of Stafford. The spokeswoman declined to discuss the agreement. > But sources close to the negotiations said the two sides had agreed >that Hill's supporters will donate $50,000 to Pacific Lumber Co., which >will in turn give the money to Humboldt State University for forestry >research. The logging company has agreed to refrain from logging the tree >Hill fought for, or any trees within a 250-foot buffer zone on the slope >around it. > Word that Hill was close to an agreement with Pacific Lumber became >public more than a week ago, but Hill said she was doubtful there would be >a deal. She accused Pacific Lumber of trying to force her to sign away her >constitutional rights by requiring her to denounce tree-sitting as a >protest activity and forgo any profits from her stay in the redwood. > Pacific Lumber spokesman Joshua Reiss declined Friday to discuss the >terms of the agreement. > "All I will say is that we are pleased that we have reached an >agreement with Miss Hill that will bring her safely out of the tree," he >said. > Living on a tiny platform slung between branches 150 feet above the >earth, Hill became a poster child for environmental activists, conducting >hundreds of interviews and entertaining celebrity visitors. Her protest >attracted more attention than any other demonstration by the thousands of >environmental activists who have fought for more than a decade to preserve >ancient redwood trees. > Pacific Lumber, owned by the Houston-based Maxxam Corp., denounced >Hill as a trespassing law-breaker who put her life in danger and >encouraged others to do so by example. But several times during her >protest, Pacific Lumber officials negotiated with Hill's representatives. >Each time, negotiations broke down amid mutual recriminations. > Hill, 25, was an unemployed drifter--the daughter of an itinerant >preacher--when she joined the forest protest movement that took off in >Humboldt County after Maxxam Corp. bought Pacific Lumber and began >clear-cutting large tracts of forests. > In March, Maxxam agreed to sell 7,400 acres of its Humboldt property >to the state and federal governments for $480 million to preserve the >ancient Headwaters grove and other redwood forests. Hill and other >environmentalists denounced the deal for preserving too little of the >forests and paying Maxxam too much. >----------------------- >NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material >is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest >in receiving this information for research and educational purposes. >----------------------- > >#################################### > >Andy Caffrey, founder >Hayduke Rocks! an Earth First! Media and Action Network > >hayduke@efmedia.org >NEW, EXPANDED WEB SITE! http://www.efmedia.org > >December 18, 1999 > >We're trying to remove the obstacles to your involvement and bring more >people together to do more powerful things. Why not print out this e-mail >and share it with your friends and cohorts who don't use computers? Please >spread the word, send money (especially!), do what you can to keep this >activist support project happening... And Keep Rockin'! We'll do our best >to let you know what's up with Terra Julia, and any plans she may develop >to do a Road Show. > >$100 from 60 people will float this project for a year: >http://www.efmedia.org/60.html > >Thank You, Honolulu and Los Angeles for being the first two! > >Please make payable to Earth First! >Thanks. > >Earth First! >P.O. Box 324 >Redway, CA 95560 > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 19 09:49:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06517 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 09:49:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18994; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 09:44:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18849 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 09:39:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip046.computer.net [140.186.252.46]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA17502 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 09:43:36 -0500 (EST) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 09:46:13 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: December 19, 1999 - December 25, 1999 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id JAA18850 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2763 Calendar of the Soul [December 19, 1999 - December 25, 1999] Christmas (December 22-28) The spirit child within my soul I feel freed of enchantment. In heart-high gladness has The holy cosmic Word engendered The heavenly fruit of hope, Which grows rejoicing into worlds afar Out of my being's godly roots. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Ich fühle wie entzaubert Das Geisteskind im Seelenschoss; Es hat in Herzenshelligkeit Gezeugt das Heilige Weltenwort Der Hoffnung Himmelsfrucht, Die jubelnd wächst in Weltenfernen Aus meines Wesens Gottesgrund. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+38 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 19 11:17:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06856 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:17:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22638; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:12:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22437 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.119] (du-148-233-78-119.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMZ00KGFWYH8P@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 10:11:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 10:12:10 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: re Archives -Kolisko Institute In-reply-to: <002b01bf49ee$7216bc80$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA22441 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2764 >Dear Glen, > >I have have been completely overwhelmed with the end of the semester work >here. I taught 7 courses (roughly 250 students) this semester and have just >finished finals week and grades - not to mention lots of work on the farm >and the kids' many end of the school year events - so I am not up to date at >all on BDNow and what is happening. > >I am also afraid, I missed any commentary about the Kolisko Institute site. >Can you explain? I did not receive any emails from Guillermo directly. I >will have to go back and look at the archive, since I have deleted all but >the direct emails over the last few weeks. Who said I was "integrity, morality, and untouchable quality" > and what did I supposedly >do that would have offended this perspective? > >Andrew > > > >>Judge by yourselves http://www.kolisko.org/philosophy.htm >> >>So Andrew >>what about this. Guillermo has expressed his objection to your actions >>and as a man of "integrity, morality, and untouchable quality" your >>actions seem somewhat contradictory?????????????? >> >>Whats doin? >> >>Glen A. >> Dr. Lorand: I am sorry to read that you are completely overwhelmed by the responsibilities you freely choose to undertake. I have re-sent you privately the communications I wrote to you on Nov 24 and Nov 25, under the subject headline "Standards?". The subject was raised by me here at BD-Now on Nov 17 and Nov 18 under the subject headline "BD-Now Copyrights" Obviously you also choose to ignored those messages since, as you can also see in the BD-Now archives, you were actively posting to the list around those dates. I am probably not the best person to interpret things for you, but I suspect that what Glen is implying, in a rather ironical way, is that you came across as wanting to present yourself as "a man of integrity, morality, and untouchable quality". I do not believe that Glen is saying that you are like that. But please ask him directly, I might be wrong. Regards. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 19 13:10:39 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07566 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:10:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA29074; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:04:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28758 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.144.64]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991219180754.MOEU1752249.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 07:07:54 +1300 Message-ID: <385D1DCE.61A9@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 07:02:54 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: re Archives -Kolisko Institute References: <002b01bf49ee$7216bc80$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2765 agdoc wrote: > > Dear Glen, > > I have have been completely overwhelmed with the end of the semester work > here. I taught 7 courses (roughly 250 students) this semester and have just > finished finals week and grades - not to mention lots of work on the farm > and the kids' many end of the school year events - so I am not up to date at > all on BDNow and what is happening. > > I am also afraid, I missed any commentary about the Kolisko Institute site. > Can you explain? I did not receive any emails from Guillermo directly. I > will have to go back and look at the archive, since I have deleted all but > the direct emails over the last few weeks. Who said I was "integrity, morality, and untouchable quality" > and what did I supposedly > do that would have offended this perspective? > > Andrew Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:48:27 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org To: bdnow@envirolink.org References: 1 > >BD Now! is still a moderated discussion group and enrollment is by >permission, it is not automatic. The archives have ALWAYS been open, but >they are not 'copyright free.' BD Now! **IS** meant for discussing issues >that are unique to 'garden quality biodynamic farming' and to the >'biodynamic quality of Life.' That means we can discuss quite a lot here, >each with our own set of perceptual skills. > >-Allan Dear Allan: How can you deal with a person that used a post that I wrote to the list, put it as a question for him (which was not) and with an authority (which I do not recognize) answer it. And then posted it in a website to promote a Biodynamic "college" course that he is teaching and making profit from ? I tried to reason with him, I wrote to him directly stating that I thought the least he could do was to ask for my authorization to use my name and my words. The first time I tried to get an answer from him, he played stupid and said that he was not aware of the issue. The next time I tried, he simply ignored me. What is really disappointing is that the person I am talking about presents himself as an expert in Biodynamics and Anthroposophy, and in his postings he is always trying to present a leveled position. IMO he is only serving himself and he is using his knowledge of Steiner to hide a very poor, unethical and cynical personality. I strongly believe that you should copyright the BD-Now archives and that at least people should ask from those involved for their authorization to use material and names from the list. Is this too much to ask ? Judge by yourselves http://www.kolisko.org/philosophy.htm Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > >Judge by yourselves http://www.kolisko.org/philosophy.htm > > > >So Andrew > >what about this. Guillermo has expressed his objection to your actions > >and as a man of "integrity, morality, and untouchable quality" your > >actions seem somewhat contradictory?????????????? > > > >Whats doin? > > > >Glen A. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 19 17:31:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09110 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:31:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14217; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:25:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14052 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:22:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.113] (du-148-233-78-113.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FN0004KJE7GS5@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:23:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:24:43 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: re Archives -Kolisko Institute In-reply-to: <385D1DCE.61A9@xtra.co.nz> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <002b01bf49ee$7216bc80$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id RAA14053 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2766 Dr. Lorand, Allan, Glen, Bruce and all other interested: Dr.Lorand (agdoc) privately has offered to take my quote and my name out of his web site, which btw was not the problem, but given the circumstances, an action I now consider appropriate. The problem I was addressing is not legal either, but of common courtesy to fellow members of this long lived virtual community we call BD-Now. I would have had expected from a fellow member at least a brief communication stating: the need to use the material, asking my opinion on its use, and making explicit the objectives pursued by the venture, in this case "The Kolisko Institute". Such a communication never arrived; therefore my desire to be removed from Dr. Lorand's web site. Not to mention that I would also could have been interested in having my five previous messages answered. This omission I now excuse given the excesive work load and inability to read email that Dr. Lorand has manifested. Dr Lorand has asked me to apologize for having publicly stated that in my opinion he was serving himself and was hiding a very poor, unethical and cynical personality. I hereby now apologize for my opinion on behalf of keeping unpolluted the sense of community that should have prevailed since the start of this unpleasant business. Dr Lorand I hope you are now satisfy and that you carry out your side of our agreement as soon as possible. I wish that in our future interactions we may express higher consideration of each other. Best Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 20 06:09:44 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA14378 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:09:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA28200; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:03:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA23135 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 03:38:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from xtra.co.nz ([210.55.86.210]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991220084712.SQBF1752249.mta2-rme@xtra.co.nz> for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:47:12 +1300 Message-ID: <385DE9B0.5BC7445A@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:32:48 +1300 From: eaccess Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: eaccess X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNow Subject: Rudolf Steiner + Christmas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2767 Dear List Extract from a lecture given by Rudolf Steiner- December 23rd 1920. ".........there is something in the depths of man's heart that speaks of nothing else than of what is purely human and dissolves all differences. And it is just within these depths that we find the Christ. And there is a wisdom which extends far beyond all that can be discovered concerning single spheres of world existence, a wisdom that is able to grasp the world in its unity, even in space and time. And this again is the star-wisdom that leads to Christ. We need to have again in a new form that which led on the one hand the shepherds of the field, and on the other hand the Magi of the East to find the way to Christ. In other words we need to deepen our external perception of nature through what the heart can develop as spiritual perception of nature. We must learn once again out of the piety of the human heart to approach all that to which in modern times the microscope, telescope, roentgen-rays apparatus and such instruments are applied. Then will the growing plant, the rushing stream, the murmuring spring, the lightning and thunder from the clouds, not merely speak to us in an indifferent way. There will speak to us from the flowers of the field, from the lightning and thunder of the clouds, from the shining stars and the radiant sun, there will, as it were, stream into our eyes and into our hearts, as the result of all our observation of nature, words that proclaim nothing else than this: "The divine is revealed in the heights of heaven, and peace shall be among men upon earth who are of good will". The time must come when our observation of nature sets itself free from the dry, prosaic, non-human method pursued in the laboratories and clinics of today. The time must come when our observation of nature must be irradiated by such life so that the life which can no longer exist in the way it did for the shepherds of Bethlehem will nevertheless be able to speak to us through the voices of the plants and animals, from stars and springs and rivers. For the whole of nature utters what was uttered by the Angel: "The Divine is revealed in the heavenly heights and there can be peace among men on Earth who desire to be of good will" ref. - Rudolf Steiner - "The search for the new Isis, the divine Sophia" 1983 Mercury Press ISBN 0-936132-58-2 Lecture I - p.9. JT From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 20 12:12:16 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19020 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:12:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28226; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:04:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26917 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:55:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.19.149]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:58:38 +0000 Message-ID: <005901bf4b0b$b59c3520$95132cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: <385A3413.C3ED3577@erols.com> Subject: Re: Wood Ash / Lye Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:51:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2768 Not a very helpful contribution to this thread, but Martha seeking a use for hydrochloric acid reminded me that we moved house to the inner suburbs of London when I was a boy; our new home had been owned by a man who ran a small electroplating company. He had been told that his soil was too alkaline, which he 'solved' by watering it with the liquor drained from his acid baths: concentrated sulphuric acid laced with a wide variety of toxic metals ! Fortunately, he had treated only a small patch of the garden on which, strangely, nothing would grow - we paved it and used the patch for overflow car-parking. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 21 15:09:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10079 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:09:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08298; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:03:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00954 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:12:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d146.infoserve.net [199.175.157.146]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA17840 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:20:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001901bf4be8$93fb9ea0$929dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: OFF/ GEN12-20WHAT CANADIANS CAN DO ABOUT GE FOOD and Americans Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:18:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2769 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 3:26 AM Subject: GEN12-20WHAT CANADIANS CAN DO ABOUT GE FOOD >WHAT (CANADIANS) CAN DO ABOUT GE FOOD IN CANADA > >Contact retailers to let them know you do not want to buy these foods. >Demand non-genetically engineered options and labelling of all GE products. >There are many more stores in your area that you can contact. > >Store Phone/Web >Dominion, A&P 1-416-239-7171 >IGA 1-416-236-1971 >Loblaw's (President's Choice) 1-800-296-2332, 800-268-7080 www.loblaw.com >Loblaw Groceterias 800-262-5914 >Sobey's 1-902-752-2960 >Metro-Richelieu 1-514-643-1000 >Borden Foods CDA 1-800-361-8998 >Buy Low Foods 1-800-565-3955 >Overwaitea 1-800-242-9299 >www.owfg.com >Safeway 1-800-723-3929 >www.safeway.com >Save-On Foods 1-800-242-9299 www.saveonfoods.com >Thrifty's 1-250-544-1122 www.thriftyfoods.com >Farm Boy fax: 613-938-6649 fbmail@farmboy.on.ca >Baskin-Robbins 1-800-331-0031 >LOEB 1-877-335-5632, 800-267-9716, 800-939-3321 >Price Club 905-851-0192 >Unico Inc. 905-602-4677 > >Contact the manufacturers of foods that contain genetically engineered >ingredients. Tell them you will not buy their products until these >ingredients are removed: > >Catelli 1-800-361-8998 >Christie's 1-800-668-2253 >Duncan Hines/Proctor & Gamble 1-800-668-0151 >Fleischmann's Yeast 1-800-777-4959 >General Mills 1-905-212-4059 >Heinz 1-416-226-5757 >Hostess Fritolay 1-800-376-2257 >Kellog's 1-888-876-3750 >Kraft 1-800-268-6450 >Liptons 1-800-565-7273 >Mars 1-905-857-5700 >Nabisco 1-800-461-0094 >Nestle 1-800-387-4636 >Proctor and Gamble 1-800-395-5594 >Rimini, Canola Harvest 1-800-635-3296 >Robin Hood Foods 1-800-268-3232 >Canola Council of Canada 1-204-982-2100 >adolphed@canola-council.org > >Tell government officials you want genetically engineered foods labeled so >you can choose not to buy them. >Say you want them out of the environment and food supply. No stamp needed >to the following addresses. > >Prime Minister Chretien >Minister of Health >House Of Commons >Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0A6 >Fax: (613) 941-6900 >E-Mail: pm@pm.gc.ca > >Mail your Own MP at: Name, MP, >House of Commons, Ottawa, ON K1A 0A6 >Call: 1-800-463-6868 to find out your MP's name >or go to http://www.net-efx.com/faxfeds to fax them directly >http://www.letterstoleaders.com also allows you to fax >Canadian MPs and Senators , and other politicians in Canada and worldwide > >Honourable Allan Rock, PC, MP >Minister of Health >House of Commons >Ottawa, ON K1A 0A6 >Fax: (613) 952-1154 >E-Mail: rocka@parl.gc.ca > >Honourable Lyle Vanclief, PC, MP >Minister of Agriculture and Agri-food >House of Commons >Ottawa, ON K1A 0A6 >Fax: (613) 759-1081 >E-Mail: vanclief@em.agr.ca > >Howard Hilstrom, MP >Reform Party Agriculture Critic >House of Commons >Ottawa, ON K1A 0A6 >Fax: (613) 992-6224 >E-Mail: hilsth@parl.gc.ca > >Dr. Keith Martin, MP >Reform Party Health Critic, >House of Commons >Ottawa, ON K1A 0A6 >Fax: (613) 996-2625 >E-Mail: martik@parl.gc.ca > >Judy Wasylycia-Leis, MP >Federal NDP Health Critic >House of Commons >Ottawa, ON K1A 0A6 >Fax: (613) 996-9713 >E-Mail: wasylj@parl.gc.ca > >Dick Proctor, MP >Federal NDP Agriculture Critic >House of Commons >Ottawa, ON K1A 0A6 >Fax: (613) 992-0131 >E-Mail: proctd@parl.gc.ca > > > > > > > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net > >Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >contains more information on genetic engineering as well as previous >genetic engineering news items. Subscription fee to genetic engineering >news is $35 (USD for those outside Canada) for 12 months, payable to >"BanGEF" and mailed to the above address. Or see website for details. >__________________________________________________________ >__________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 21 15:09:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10080 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:09:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08459; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:04:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00958 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:12:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d146.infoserve.net [199.175.157.146]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA17848 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:20:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001a01bf4be8$95854be0$929dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Solstice Greetings Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:20:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF4BA5.5FDD7820" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2770 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF4BA5.5FDD7820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Have a fulfilling Solstice to all on and off BDNOW. This being a special one, both moon and sun closest to EArth at Winter = Solstice. Happened last time in 1866. Michael ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF4BA5.5FDD7820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Have a fulfilling Solstice to all on and off=20 BDNOW.
This being a special one, both = moon and=20 sun closest to EArth at Winter Solstice.  Happened last time in=20 1866.
 
Michael
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF4BA5.5FDD7820-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 21 15:09:28 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10090 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:09:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08575; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:04:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02457 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:23:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.126.208]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991221193208.DKPR1752249.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 08:32:08 +1300 Message-ID: <385FD48C.4060@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 08:27:08 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: ferdy's potentised preps Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2771 Now here is a novel idea Potentizing BD Preparations . . . or not? by Ferdinand Vondruska I have been making BD Preparations and used all of them since my early childhood (Waldorf School garden starting in 1954 and onwards). The Maria Thun Fladen Preparation is also called Cow Paddy Preparation or Barrel Compost, as it is, in some instances, matured inside a barrel. For simplicity's sake, I shall call the product Barrel Compost i.e. BC. BC is made by rhythmically lifting and turning approximately one wheel barrow full of fresh cow manure. This is manure that we collect at our naturally and Bio-Dynamically run and fed cow barn. To this manure will be added calcium (egg shells from hens that are fed natural food and run freely!) and basalt (from our adjacent river, the Cheakamus). The next step involves at least four people who, for an hour, rhythmically move in a circle, while each of the participants is lifting and turning a shovel full of cow manure. The manure is being lifted from the periphery and dropped into the center of the heap. By doing this, the cow manure gets aerated and the entire heap becomes one homogeneous entity. For those who understand the process of "rhythmetizing" it may be added that the manure-in-process does slowly change its etheric radiation and emanation. It is exciting to observe and feel the enlivening process. After one hour, the processed cow manure has become an entity of its own (imbued with the energies of those who worked it) and is dropped into a carefully prepared hole in the ground. In this cavity (which may be a barrel) it is inoculated with all the Bio-Dynamic compost preparations (502—507). In our area, it may take 3—5 months to maturity. The end product is a dark brown "humus/soil" full of the tiniest worms and worm eggs and a host of fungi, soil bacteria, enzymes and other miniature life forms. The BC is the foundation material for the homeopathizing process of the Bio-Dynamic Preparations. I took the Barrel Compost and dried it slowly. It took three weeks near a wood fire. The entire mass became a homogeneous lump that needed to be somewhat crushed (by hand or in a mortar). And so, I took nine units of dry Barrel Compost and mixed it with one unit of (in this case) oak bark (505). And I mixed the two together for about 12 minutes. And, after 12 minutes, I had in my hand a mix of 9:1 or a D1. And after this process, I repeated it once more. I took one unit of the D1 (oak bark) and mixed it with nine units of Barrel Compost. And again, I shook it for 12 minutes. And I had a D2. I left it at this. Because, now, I had 100 oak bark units in my hands or the equivalent of 100 cow heads. I could have repeated it for a D3, the equivalent of 1000 cow heads and so forth. But, I had to test my D1 and my D2. I can report that the D1 did work as if it was a pure oak bark preparation (505) —of course, I did it with 502, 503, 505, and 506, and not with 504 or 507, of which I had enough. Equisetum does not have to be potentised i.e. thinned down. There is always enough of it; at least for the time being and as long as you can find top quality. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 21 16:18:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11085 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:18:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA21605; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:13:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu10.smtp.email.msn.com [207.46.181.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20876 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:09:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 63.23.36.42 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:13:15 -0800 Message-ID: <001c01bf4bf9$342a71c0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: Solstice Greetings Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:20:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF4BB6.2546EF00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2772 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF4BB6.2546EF00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable May the good spirit of biodynamics be with one and all. Happy Holidays and heart-felt seasons greetings... Andrew =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF4BB6.2546EF00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
May the good spirit of biodynamics be with one and all.
Happy Holidays and heart-felt seasons greetings...
 
Andrew 
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF4BB6.2546EF00-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 21 21:09:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA15264 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 21:09:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA01232; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 21:03:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29944 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 20:58:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.174] (pm3shep2-163-108.intrepid.net [209.190.163.108]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA30086 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 21:02:40 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 21:05:57 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Dennis Klocek's Weather Report Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2773 Is Dennis Klocek still doing the astroclimatic weather predictions? -Allan igg@igg.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 22 12:48:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23879 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:48:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08954; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:42:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25020 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:26:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.18.160]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:30:16 +0000 Message-ID: <001201bf4c9a$0b6f95c0$a0122cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: <001a01bf4be8$95854be0$929dafc7@333> Subject: Re: Solstice Greetings Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:20:41 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF4C98.7DBC5DE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2774 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF4C98.7DBC5DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, Michael. Hope you're able to enjoy the big moon tonight; as = with the total eclipse in August, here in South Wales we have low, heavy = cloud (last time, yesterday!). Tony N-S. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF4C98.7DBC5DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =FF=FE<=00!=00D=00O=00C=00T=00Y=00P=00E=00 =00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = =00P=00U=00B=00L=00I=00C=00 = =00"=00-=00/=00/=00W=003=00C=00/=00/=00D=00T=00D=00 =00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = =004=00.=000=00 = =00T=00r=00a=00n=00s=00i=00t=00i=00o=00n=00a=00l=00/=00/=00E=00N=00"=00>=00= =0D=00=0A= =00<=00H=00T=00M=00L=00>=00<=00H=00E=00A=00D=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00M=00E=00T=00A=00 = =00c=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00t=00=3D=00"=00t=00e=00x=00t=00/=00h=00t=00m=00= l=00;=00 = =00c=00h=00a=00r=00s=00e=00t=00=3D=00u=00n=00i=00c=00o=00d=00e=00"=00 = =00h=00t=00t=00p=00-=00e=00q=00u=00i=00v=00=3D=00C=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00= t=00-=00T=00y=00p=00e=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00M=00E=00T=00A=00 = =00c=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00t=00=3D=00"=00M=00S=00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = =005=00.=000=000=00.=002=003=001=004=00.=001=000=000=000=00"=00 = =00n=00a=00m=00e=00=3D=00G=00E=00N=00E=00R=00A=00T=00O=00R=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00S=00T=00Y=00L=00E=00>=00<=00/=00S=00T=00Y=00L=00E=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00/=00H=00E=00A=00D=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00B=00O=00D=00Y=00 = =00b=00g=00C=00o=00l=00o=00r=00=3D=00#=00f=00f=00f=00f=00f=00f=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00<=00F=00O=00N=00T=00 = =00f=00a=00c=00e=00=3D=00A=00r=00i=00a=00l=00 = =00s=00i=00z=00e=00=3D=002=00>=00T=00h=00a=00n=00k=00s=00,=00 = =00M=00i=00c=00h=00a=00e=00l=00.=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00 = =00H=00o=00p=00e=00 =00y=00o=00u=00'=00r=00e=00 =00a=00b=00l=00e=00 = =00t=00o=00 =00e=00n=00j=00o=00y=00 =00=0D=00=0A= =00t=00h=00e=00 =00b=00i=00g=00 =00m=00o=00o=00n=00 = =00t=00o=00n=00i=00g=00h=00t=00;=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00 =00a=00s=00 = =00w=00i=00t=00h=00 =00t=00h=00e=00 =00t=00o=00t=00a=00l=00 = =00e=00c=00l=00i=00p=00s=00e=00 =00i=00n=00 = =00A=00u=00g=00u=00s=00t=00,=00 =00h=00e=00r=00e=00 =00i=00n=00 = =00S=00o=00u=00t=00h=00 =00=0D=00=0A= =00W=00a=00l=00e=00s=00 =00w=00e=00 =00h=00a=00v=00e=00 = =00l=00o=00w=00,=00 =00h=00e=00a=00v=00y=00 =00c=00l=00o=00u=00d=00 = =00(=00l=00a=00s=00t=00 =00t=00i=00m=00e=00,=00 = =00y=00e=00s=00t=00e=00r=00d=00a=00y=00!=00)=00.=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00= &=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00 =00T=00o=00n=00y=00 =00=0D=00=0A= =00N=00-=00S=00.=00<=00/=00F=00O=00N=00T=00>=00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00<=00= /=00B=00O=00D=00Y=00>=00<=00/=00H=00T=00M=00L=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF4C98.7DBC5DE0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 23 07:21:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09173 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 07:21:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA24654; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 07:14:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA24446 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 07:12:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d141.infoserve.net [199.175.157.141]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id EAA16681 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 04:20:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001001bf4d40$46ec4c00$8d9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Solstice Greetings/other/RS Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 04:21:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF4CFD.362207E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2775 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF4CFD.362207E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Morning Tony, We also were not able to observe the sun eclipse in August due to = cloudy and rainy weather. However, we are able to see the sun and moon = through fog! It has been very foggy with inversions in last couple of = days and forcast for next few. The fog lifts during the day, or rather = spreads out, varying thickness, so that higher up our mountain it gets = thicker, then thinner, and then after 9pm or so, the sky becomes clear = and we have an unimpeded or rather unveiled view of the moon. Temps. daytime highs around 7-10C in the fog, up the mountain in the = ski slopes above the fog, shade temps 3-6C and sun temps as high as 15C. = The mountain I live on has an elevation of approx. 1300 meters; I live = at approx. 300 meters and about 3 km from the ocean and "downtown" = Vancouver. The other 2 nearby ski hills are higher, approx. 2000 meters = and 2500 meters. Where is South Wales are you? We had our final Wed. study group meeting last night. (led by my = father now for 45 years) We brought what Christmas meant to us. = References included: From Sympton to Reality, Cycle of the Year, Ag. = Course, Four Seasons & Archangels. and Prokofief's Cycle of the Year. Have a Blessed Christmas and all the best for Y2K. Michael N. Vancouver, BC, Canada (lat. 49N) -----Original Message----- From: TONY NELSON-SMITH To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 9:54 AM Subject: Re: Solstice Greetings =20 =20 =FF=FE=20 Thanks, Michael. Hope you're able to enjoy the big moon tonight; = as with the total eclipse in August, here in South Wales we have low, = heavy cloud (last time, yesterday!). Tony N-S. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF4CFD.362207E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Morning = Tony,
 
  We also were not able to observe the sun = eclipse in=20 August due to cloudy and rainy weather.  However, we are able to = see the=20 sun and moon through fog!  It has been very foggy with inversions = in last=20 couple of days and forcast for next few.  The fog lifts during the = day, or=20 rather spreads out, varying thickness, so that higher up our mountain it = gets=20 thicker, then thinner, and then after 9pm or so, the sky becomes clear = and we=20 have an unimpeded or rather unveiled view of the moon.
   Temps. daytime highs around 7-10C in = the fog, up=20 the mountain in the ski slopes above the fog, shade temps 3-6C and sun = temps as=20 high as 15C.  The mountain I live on has an elevation of approx. = 1300=20 meters; I live at approx. 300 meters and about 3 km from the ocean and=20 "downtown" Vancouver. The other 2 nearby ski hills are higher, = approx.=20 2000 meters and 2500 meters.
  Where is South Wales are you?
   We had our final Wed. study group = meeting last=20 night. (led by my father now for 45 years)  We brought what = Christmas meant=20 to us.  References included: From Sympton to Reality, Cycle of the = Year,=20 Ag. Course, Four Seasons & Archangels. and Prokofief's Cycle of the=20 Year.
  Have a Blessed Christmas and all the best for = Y2K.
Michael
N. Vancouver, BC, Canada (lat. = 49N)
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 TONY NELSON-SMITH <tangolf@cwcom.net>
To: = bdnow@envirolink.org <bdnow@envirolink.org>
D= ate:=20 Wednesday, December 22, 1999 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: = Solstice=20 Greetings

ÿþ =20
Thanks, Michael.  Hope you're = able to=20 enjoy the big moon tonight;  as with the total eclipse in = August, here=20 in South Wales we have low, heavy cloud (last time, = yesterday!).  =20 Tony N-S.
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF4CFD.362207E0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 23 07:57:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09816 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 07:57:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA28147; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 07:51:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA27697 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 07:46:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.198] (pm3shep4-163-175.intrepid.net [209.190.163.175]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA23324 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 07:50:55 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199912230034.SAA19501@ncatark.uark.edu> References: <38615395.C247321B@epix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 07:49:38 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Brix/Taste/Foliars Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2776 >From Sanet: >One of the better on-site tests you can perform as an indicator >of taste is degrees Brix, using a refractometer. The refractometer >is an precision optical instrument used in the food industry. >The higher the Brix, the greater the soluble solids and sugars >present in the sap of fruits and vegetables. > >On one of the California farms, they raised Brix readings on Japanese >melons from 8 to 16. This is a dramatic taste improvement. This was >done with supplemental foliar feeding (Brix Mix from Peaceful Valley >Supply) in addition to soil amendments. > >In Wisconsin, the ginseng growers initiated a quality improvement >program to increase active herbal ingredients. This was done through >soil testing, soil fertilizer programming, and foliar feeding. > >Steve Diver >ATTRA >http://www.attra.org From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 23 22:24:33 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18104 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:24:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA08503; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:18:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from srv1.acenet.com.au (srv1.acenet.com.au [203.35.119.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08383 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:17:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from acenet.com.au (unknown [203.35.156.54]) by srv1.acenet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B4B98782 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:22:44 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <3862E911.FAE6BEC9@acenet.com.au> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:31:30 +1000 From: Brian Keats Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Christmas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2777 May we aspire to Joy, Goodwill and even Love. A Blessed Christmas to you all, Brian Keats. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 24 09:00:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21195 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:00:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06874; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:54:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06464 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:51:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha07s121.d.shentel.net [204.111.54.121]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20939 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:55:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38637B14.EC232FD7@LightExpression.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:54:28 -0500 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bio-Dynamic List Subject: OFF -- GM and Irradiated foods Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2778 Thought you folks might like to read this....... Best to all........... Wayne *********** From: PLANETNEWS@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 Subject: GM foods list... If you're interested in the ongoing Genetically Engineered food question the following may be of interest to you: The following processed foods tested positive for being genetically modified (September 1999). These tests were not "safety tests;" they were only to establish the presence of unlabeled genetically modified ingredients. * Alpo Dry Pet Food * Aunt Jemima Pancake Mix * Ball Park Franks * Betty Crocker Bac-O's Bacon Flavor Bits * Boca Burger Chef Max's Favorite * Bravos Tortilla Chips * Duncan Hines Cake Mix * Enfamil ProSobee Soy Formula * Frito-Lay Fritos Corn Chips * Gardenburger * General Mills Total Corn Flakes Cereal * Green Giant Harvest Burgers (now called Morningstar Farms) * Heinz 2 Baby Food * Jiffy Corn Muffin Mix * Kellogg's Corn Flakes * Light Life Gimme Lean * McDonald's McVeggie Burgers * Morning Star Farms Better'n Burgers * Nabisco Snackwell's Granola Bars * Nestle Carnation Alsoy Infant Formula * Old El Paso Taco Shells * Ovaltine Malt Powdered Beverage Mix * Post Blueberry Morning Cereal * Quaker Chewy Granola Bars * Quaker Yellow Corn Meal * Quick Loaf Bread Mix * Similac Isomil Soy Formula * Ultra Slim Fast Additionally, the following whole foods have been genetically engineered and approved for commercial sales. No labeling or long term safety tests were required. According to the New York Times, about one half of all soybeans and a third of all corn planted in 1999 were genetically modified. * Canola Oil (rapeseed oil) * Chicory, red hearted (Radicchio) * Corn * Cotton * Papaya * Potato * Soybean * Squash * Tomato (Source) Union of Concerned Scientists What Can You Do? 1. Make a list of these GM foods and take it with you to the grocery store when you go shopping. Make copies for other family members to use. 2. Buy certified organic foods whenever possible. 3. Support the movement demanding long-term independent safety testing and labeling of genetically engineered foods. 4. Get informed about GM foods on the Internet. You will find hundreds of GM food articles and documented information. Here are a few places to begin: Turning Point Project http://www.turnpoint.org/geneng.html Mothers for Natural Law http://www.safe-food.org/ Natural Food commission http://www.NaturalLaw.org.nz/genetics/default.htm Genetically Engineered Food - A Serious Health Risk http://www.netlink.de/gen/fagan.html Search Engine Key word: GM+food ~~~~~oOo~~~~~~ From: "C'esca Lawrence" Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 Subject: PUBLIC HEALTH WARNING!! Between this and genetically altered food it's as if the government is "trying" to do everything it can to make us sick. Please read this for the safetey of your health. The following message was edited for less time-consumtive reading. Dear Friend, **This warning is passed to you with concern for the safety and health of you and your family.** Under pressure from corporate interests, the USDA has decided to allow the use of food 'irradiation' to treat foods so that they can have an exponentially longer shelf-life, thus increasing corporate profits. In addition, this process will allow shoddy food producers to sterilize contaminated foods while extending their shelf life, saving them spoilage losses. As many are pointing out, it resembles a scary, futuristic, science- fiction movie, but it is actually happening today in our country, and will continue to happen unless we do something to stop it. Fortunately, thousands of Americans are already voicing their outrage in protest. As many of us know, the human body requires fresh foods in their natural state in order to maintain normal health. This is why many are strongly opposed to irradiated food because the process of irradiation alters the natural state of food even though the food 'appears' the same. Here are several responses from beleagered food-consumers: "A steak that can sit on the counter for days and not rot is not a steak anymore! It might as well be plastic!" "Do you want to risk your health just so that the radiation/food industry can get rich?" "Those idiots! I wouldn't radiate myself. Why would I eat radiated food every day? I am what I eat! My body is what I eat. I don't want an extended shelf-life! I want my life!" Because the effects of radiation on food is invisible to the human eye, the food industry feels that the American public will be easily seduced by an advertising campaign and a nice little label to be placed on irradiated foods. All the industry has to do is convince people that irradiated foods are safe, and a new multi-billion dollar industry will have been born. This campaign will play upon your fears of bacteria (which radiation kills, naturally), your desire to save money, and try to sell you on the long shelf-life of foods blasted with radiation. Ads may show happy Moms pulling radiated vegetables out of a picnic basket. You will pay twice: Once at the store, and later, with your health. An already skeptical public of doctors, scientists, health experts, parents, and consumer-protection organizations are opposed to radiating food. Who do you trust: God and/or Nature who/which has freely provided human beings with natural food for eons, OR big business? Please, on behalf of all the other human beings on this planet that may be subjected to this unthinkable practice of selling humans radiated food, do pass this letter to least all of your friends, so that they might pass it off to their friends, and so on... Think of it as calling your neighbor to warn them of an approaching hurricane, because it's coming, and it's dangerous, and knowing what we know about the dangers of irradiated food, how can we not warn others? Please, it takes less than a minute and forward this message. (don’t forward things. Copy and paste so all the names don’t show up for spamming) Tell your local grocer that you won't buy 'irradiated' food and you want access to quality fresh foods, as natural as possible. Thank you. NOTE FROM JEAN: I'M NOT AN EXPERT ON THIS ISSUE BUT REMEMBER READING, OVER 25 YEARS AGO WHEN THEY TRIED TO INTRODUCE FOOD IRRADIATION IN CANADA, THAT ALTHOUGH IT DOES NOT MAKE THE FOOD RADIOACTIVE, IT DOES CREATE REACTIONS AT THE MOLECULAR LEVEL IN THE IRRADIATED FOOD, THUS CREATING UNNATURAL HARMFUL ELEMENTS THAT OUR DIGESTIVE SYSTEM IS UNABLE TO HANDLE -- AND THUS IT COULD ALLEGEDLY PROMOTE CANCER. I THINK POTATOES AND ONIONS ARE ALREADY ROUTINELY IRRADIATED IN NORTH AMERICA TO PREVENT THEM FROM SPROUTING. MOST SPICES ARE ALSO IRRADIATED IN THE US. (I think most cheezes are now irradiated because they don’t grow mold as fast anymore) -- *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 24 09:00:08 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21196 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:00:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06929; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:55:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06616 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:52:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha07s121.d.shentel.net [204.111.54.121]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20985 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:56:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38637B55.DE1B454D@LightExpression.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:55:33 -0500 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bio-Dynamic List Subject: GM Irony Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2779 Hi Guys! Thought that you might like this one -- almost reason to celebrate......... Best to all in this time of new experience! Wayne ********** GM FOOD BANNED IN MONSANTO STAFF CAFETERIA [ [ The Times of India, via News Plus [ [ Click on the Times of India link at [ http://www.mantra.com/newsplus [ [ Wednesday, December 22, 1999 [ [ London - Genetically modified food has been banned from [ the staff cafeteria at Monsanto Co.'s UK headquarters by [ the company's own caterer, GM food giant Monsanto [ confirmed on Tuesday. [ [ Granada Food Services, whose customers include Monsanto's [ High Wycombe office near London, recently told clients it [ would not supply food containing GM soya and GM maize due [ to customer concerns. [ [ In a statement to clients, Granada said the move was [ designed "to ensure that you, the customer, can feel [ confident in the food we serve." (AP) [ [ Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the [ educational purposes of research and open discussion. [ [ Jai Maharaj [ http://www.mantra.com/jyotish [ [ Latest world news, opinion columns, discussion, activism [ http://www.mantra.com/newsplus [ [ Archive of tens of thousands of posts [ http://www.flex.com/~jai/posts.html [ [ Om Shanti *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 24 10:05:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21495 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:05:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12922; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:00:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from moose.erie.net (moose.erie.net [208.138.204.11]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12631 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:57:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from erie.net (pm2-5.erie.net [208.166.66.11]) by moose.erie.net (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA11903 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:01:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38638AEB.AE70F50A@erie.net> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:02:03 -0500 From: Mark Winschel Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" Subject: unsubscribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2780 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 24 15:08:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23872 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13075; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:03:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05409 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:44:27 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp331.cy-net.net [208.21.195.140]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06008 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:48:44 -0600 Message-Id: <199912241848.MAA06008@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:47:16 -0600 Subject: growing in small places Priority: normal In-reply-to: <0.8cae0e92.258bc17f@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2781 NEILCO wrote: Living in the city it can be difficult to find a decent food source. Have any ideas concerning growing in tiny places, like balconies? Hydroponics seems to be a bit removed from a proper food growing situation to me. >> I never saw a reply to this thread. And, I think many or most of us have either large gardens or acreage we cultivate, so it may not be a problem that members of BD NOW have had to address. But, I've always encouraged my city friends to grow some of their own edibles, if at all possible. Look for things that either have a short growing season (like cutting lettuces) or things that climb so you can plant a 'row' in a windowbox with more than one food. Runner beans are very pretty edibles, and take up very little floor space if you provide them with a trellis. Ditto many cherry tomatoes, and even their larger relatives can be trained to go up. You can hang buckets and planting containers in blank areas also. Soil lugged up stairs becomes very heavy, soil in planting beds, when watered regularly becomes even heavier, so be sure your terrace can support the weight first. I wouldn't try for corn since it usually only makes 2 ears per stalk, and takes up a tremendous area to do so, but if you do, there are even small varieties that would do well cramped in boxes. (Luther Hill will make up to 4 ears of very tasty corn even when grown under fairly adverse conditions.) Most vegetable root systems aren't really that large, if you can find the space for the top growth, you usually can fit the roots into surprisingly small areas of mixed plantings. Hydroponics is a very heavy medium to grow in, besides the water, it usually involves (or used to) gravel and rocks as well. And, I know there are a few organic gardeners who use hydroponics, but the kits and instructions do lean to chemicals more than organic/ natural methods. Of course, if you did choose water as your growing medium and determined to keep it organic, you might be also able to grow fish as a ready food source in similar situations. I'm sure there other ideas on list also. Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 24 15:45:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24084 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:45:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA17284; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:40:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17130 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:39:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.174] (pm3shep4-163-174.intrepid.net [209.190.163.174]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA10393 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:43:58 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199912241848.MAA06008@portal.txcyber.com> References: <0.8cae0e92.258bc17f@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:47:27 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: growing in small places Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2782 >Hydroponics is a very heavy medium to grow in, besides >the water, it usually involves (or used to) gravel and >rocks as well. And, I know there are a few organic >gardeners who use hydroponics, but the kits and >instructions do lean to chemicals more than organic/ >natural methods. Of course, if you did choose water as >your growing medium and determined to keep it >organic, you might be also able to grow fish as a ready >food source in similar situations. I'm sure there other >ideas on list also. >Martha, (Texas) IMHO, hydroponics is not so much a solution for growing in tough places as it is a marketing plan. Hydroponics was chosen as the method of agriculture for Biosphere II and then dropped late in the planning cycle due to the fact that it is not sustainable and is very expensive in the long run. (The cost of all those 'micro mineral mini-packs' add up!!) Beyond the, for pure food enthusiasts, the secrets remain in the soil. Hydroponics assumes that science knows exactly what a plant needs; I'll have to stick with my assumption that healthy soil - with the BD preps properly applied - contains what is really needed to grow pure food, bringing in nutritional 'substance,' as it does, from both below and above. -Allan Balliett csa@claymont.org From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 25 03:21:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA27526 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 03:21:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA23876; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 03:16:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA23622 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 03:13:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d148.infoserve.net [199.175.157.148]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id AAA23161 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 00:21:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001d01bf4eb1$3daeb160$949dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Merry Christmas Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 00:22:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF4E6E.2C54FE80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2783 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF4E6E.2C54FE80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Have a Blessed Christmas! M. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF4E6E.2C54FE80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Have a Blessed Christmas!=20 M.
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF4E6E.2C54FE80-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 25 04:36:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA27819 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 04:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA00016; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 04:31:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from cobalt5-he.global.net.uk (cobalt5-he.global.net.uk [195.147.246.165]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA29922 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 04:30:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from p87s03a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.227.136] helo=compaq) by cobalt5-he.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 121naU-0006Tg-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 01:34:11 -0800 Message-ID: <38648E4F.1E3C@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 09:28:47 +0000 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Merry Christmas References: <001d01bf4eb1$3daeb160$949dafc7@333> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2784 Michael Roboz wrote: > > Have a Blessed Christmas! M. Thanks Michael just a thought from me to you all Ask yourself,why ducks still swim in water when there's ice And all with just some feather's how can they suffice A human being falling in the same water would find A terrible sensation one that might just blow their mind. The little Robin sitting on the fence post in the snow His tiny legs and bottom in contact,yes we know The feeling we imagine,and shudder at the thought But he sings for his supper like a little Robin ought So do what you were born to do and you will certainly Be better than imagining another place to be Follow this philosphy through diet into life So what you grow, and cook and cut up with your fork and knife Will have a bearing on the way you handle what you do And remember the wild creature's of the forest all see you. They eat there food as fresh,in fact in most cases alive The life force was not shot away,and their system doth survive On fresh in season products, those available and true Organically grown produce will be better off for you. Then give thanks to those people who love and tend the land Who work so close to Nature and who therefore understand The forces,like the wind and rain,the earth and how it needs The love we all can give it,and so in turn it feeds Us all, who reach down into the dynamic force that's there It simply needs our combined love and our great will to share At Christmas its a special time when thoughts of peace and rest Explode into a message that gives added fuel and zest So really in whatever countries land you plant your soul I wish you all you wish yourselves Love from the great North Pole Rex Tyler -- ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 25 11:00:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29714 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 11:00:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01578; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 10:50:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01321 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 10:48:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.20.155]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Sat, 25 Dec 1999 15:49:59 +0000 Message-ID: <002c01bf4eef$ea6c9c80$9b142cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: <001001bf4d40$46ec4c00$8d9dafc7@333> Subject: Re: Solstice Greetings/other/RS Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 15:49:11 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF4EEF.9712B880" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2785 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF4EEF.9712B880 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0026_01BF4EEF.9712B880" ------=_NextPart_001_0026_01BF4EEF.9712B880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Michael: Thanks for your greetings - blessings and best wishes to = you and yours, in return. I almost had a university teaching job in = Vancouver, years ago, and a number of friends or colleagues visit it = regularly and speak enthusiastically about the region. Your situation = sounds rather more dramatic than mine. I live on the north side of the = Gower peninsula, just west of Swansea. Gower is best known for its = south and west coasts, which have sandy bays set into limestone cliffs, = some of them good for surfing, but our house faces Llanelli across the = Burry Inlet. This is a shallow estuary best known for its cockles (a = traditional poor-man's clam) and the seabirds which feed on them. We = are on the southern edge of the once very productive South Wales = coalfield (which produced anthracite of such good quality that it was = once exported to colonial New England to heat the greenhouses of the = rich) and I live in a converted pithead building; hence the surrounding = soil was originally a mix of broken shale and cinders overlying heavy = glacial boulder-clay. We are at the foot of a hill which protects us = from the prevailing south-westerly gales but also means that we get = direct winter sun only for the middle 2-3 hours of the day; being on = the spring-line means that we are never dried out in summer, but very = wet in winter. Slugs are our greatest problem and I intend to get = around to using a jauche of rotted slug when I've figured out the proper = potency and correct time to apply it (any experience of this?). First = organic, then BD gardening has improved the soil no end - the slugs = greatly appreciate my vegetables! I exaggerated a bit - we did, actually, see the moon's disc = moving away from the sun for a very brief period between clouds, = immediately after the eclipse: I photographed it and used the picture = for a Winter Solstice greetings card for my non-Christian friends. In = case you're interested, I'll attach it in JPEG format (278 Kb). Greetings to all BDers: Nadolig llawen a blwyddyn newydd dda! = Tony N-S. ------=_NextPart_001_0026_01BF4EEF.9712B880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =FF=FE<=00!=00D=00O=00C=00T=00Y=00P=00E=00 =00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = =00P=00U=00B=00L=00I=00C=00 = =00"=00-=00/=00/=00W=003=00C=00/=00/=00D=00T=00D=00 =00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = =004=00.=000=00 = =00T=00r=00a=00n=00s=00i=00t=00i=00o=00n=00a=00l=00/=00/=00E=00N=00"=00>=00= =0D=00=0A= =00<=00H=00T=00M=00L=00>=00<=00H=00E=00A=00D=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00M=00E=00T=00A=00 = =00c=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00t=00=3D=00"=00t=00e=00x=00t=00/=00h=00t=00m=00= l=00;=00 = =00c=00h=00a=00r=00s=00e=00t=00=3D=00u=00n=00i=00c=00o=00d=00e=00"=00 = =00h=00t=00t=00p=00-=00e=00q=00u=00i=00v=00=3D=00C=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00= t=00-=00T=00y=00p=00e=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00<=00M=00E=00T=00A=00 = =00c=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00t=00=3D=00"=00M=00S=00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = =005=00.=000=000=00.=002=003=001=004=00.=001=000=000=000=00"=00 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[208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29882 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 11:47:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06184; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 11:42:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from m8.boston.juno.com (m8.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.196]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05906 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 11:38:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from salliejr@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EUPULYS3; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 11:42:19 EST To: homestead-work-optin-conf-211675469@topica.com, Homestead-Work@topica.com, listproc@listproc.wsu.edu, bdnow@envirolink.org, homestead@lambada.oit.unc.edu, OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:41:04 -0500 Subject: Season's Greetings Message-ID: <19991225.113849.-76967.2.salliejr@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-4,8-11 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: "Sarah J. Rose" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2786 Hello All, I want to wish everyone a safe and happy Holiday season. May all your wishes and dreams be fullfilled. And don't eat to much!!!!(VBG) I have enjoyed being on the lists and hope I have learned a lot from all of you. Also I look forward to reading the posts in the coming year. Although for the most part I am a lurker, I probably will come out with a question or two and maybe an observation too! Again, Happy Holidays! Sallie - Zone 6 - SW Ohio with a little snow cover From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Dec 25 13:11:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00223 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 13:11:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13932; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 13:06:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13701 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 13:05:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d144.infoserve.net [199.175.157.144]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA15150 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 10:13:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000c01bf4f03$eef39420$909dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw:Monasanto catererer bans GE food to Monsanto / Read this one!~ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 10:14:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2787 -----Original Message----- From: Ferdinand Vondruska To: Roboz, Michael Date: Saturday, December 25, 1999 10:06 AM Subject: Read this one!~ > >http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2562764499-062 >-- >Ferdinand >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > >C-DAR HOUSE: a Center for the transformation of the voice of the forest >into an >understanding of its soul through the arts. Fax: 604 898-1512, Phone: >604-898-9101, >Website: www.c-dar.com > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Dec 26 23:54:25 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA04399 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 23:54:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA00248; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 23:46:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA29877 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 23:43:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d154.infoserve.net [199.175.157.154]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id UAA14825 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 20:51:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000201bf5026$31cc11a0$9a9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Vanc. etc. Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 20:46:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF4FE2.52E36260" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2788 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF4FE2.52E36260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Tony, What would have been your faculty if you come to Vancouver, I assume = Univ. of British Columbia. I got my biochemistry undergrad degreee from = UBC and a few years later went to grad. school at Simon Fraser = University (SFU) in a combination of Environmental Toxicology and Pest = Management. There is also BC Inst. Technology, and a many colleges. One = of our newer university in Univ. of Northern BC, situated in Prince = George. I have been only to Southern England, not to Wales. Wales sounds = like a beautiful place. I believe there is a least one Camphill = Community in Wales. My Hungarian father same over to Durham, England in = 1947 to work in the coal mines, later went overseas when they discovered = he was actually a mining engineer. He was Safety Officer in the coal = mine, etc., one of the more dangerous mine jobs. In terms of growing crops, this corner of N. America is best at small = fruits, such as raspberries, blackberries, strawberries, etc, and some = mixed vegetables. Greenhouse tomatoes, cucs, peppers, is now a huge = export business, especially when Japan deemed tomato as a vegie, not a = fruit. 5 hr. drive in the Interior, in the Okanagen, large fruits are = best grown, such as apples, stone fruits, etc. Our area is a lush evergreen rain forest. Nature forces are very = strong, almost overwhelming, especially in BC. We have raccoons, = visiting our gardens and occasionally bears and sometimes deer. As I did this morning, I will go snowshoeing up one of the nearby = mountains tomorrow, only 20 min. drive from my house. I can go water = skiing or kayaking 15 min. in similar direction. This part of Vancouver = is really part of a hugh network of parks and nature is never far away, = yet I can be downtown in 30 min. =20 Take care, all the best for Y2K ( I see you have still inherited those = two "letters") Michael -----Original Message----- From: TONY NELSON-SMITH To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, December 25, 1999 8:03 AM Subject: Re: Solstice Greetings/other/RS =20 =20 =FF=FE=20 Dear Michael: Thanks for your greetings - blessings and best wishes = to you and yours, in return. I almost had a university teaching job in = Vancouver, years ago, and a number of friends or colleagues visit it = regularly and speak enthusiastically about the region. Your situation = sounds rather more dramatic than mine. I live on the north side of the = Gower peninsula, just west of Swansea. Gower is best known for its = south and west coasts, which have sandy bays set into limestone cliffs, = some of them good for surfing, but our house faces Llanelli across the = Burry Inlet. This is a shallow estuary best known for its cockles (a = traditional poor-man's clam) and the seabirds which feed on them. We = are on the southern edge of the once very productive South Wales = coalfield (which produced anthracite of such good quality that it was = once exported to colonial New England to heat the greenhouses of the = rich) and I live in a converted pithead building; hence the surrounding = soil was originally a mix of broken shale and cinders overlying heavy = glacial boulder-clay. We are at the foot of a hill which protects us = from the prevailing south-westerly gales but also means that we get = direct winter sun only for the middle 2-3 hours of the day; being on = the spring-line means that we are never dried out in summer, but very = wet in winter. Slugs are our greatest problem and I intend to get = around to using a jauche of rotted slug when I've figured out the proper = potency and correct time to apply it (any experience of this?). First = organic, then BD gardening has improved the soil no end - the slugs = greatly appreciate my vegetables! I exaggerated a bit - we did, actually, see the moon's disc = moving away from the sun for a very brief period between clouds, = immediately after the eclipse: I photographed it and used the picture = for a Winter Solstice greetings card for my non-Christian friends. In = case you're interested, I'll attach it in JPEG format (278 Kb). Greetings to all BDers: Nadolig llawen a blwyddyn newydd = dda! Tony N-S. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF4FE2.52E36260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Tony,
 
  What would have been your faculty if you come = to=20 Vancouver, I assume Univ. of British Columbia.  I got my = biochemistry=20 undergrad degreee from UBC and a few years later went to grad. school at = Simon=20 Fraser University (SFU) in a combination of Environmental Toxicology and = Pest=20 Management. There is also BC Inst. Technology, and a many = colleges.  One of=20 our newer university in Univ. of Northern BC, situated in Prince=20 George.
   I have been only to Southern England, = not to=20 Wales.  Wales sounds like a beautiful place.  I believe there = is a=20 least one Camphill Community in Wales.  My Hungarian father same = over to=20 Durham, England in 1947 to work in the coal mines, later went overseas = when they=20 discovered he was actually a mining engineer.  He was Safety = Officer in the=20 coal mine, etc., one of the more dangerous mine jobs.
  In terms of growing crops, this corner of N. = America is=20 best at small fruits, such as raspberries, blackberries, strawberries, = etc, and=20 some mixed vegetables.  Greenhouse tomatoes, cucs, peppers, is now = a huge=20 export business, especially when Japan deemed tomato as a vegie, not a=20 fruit.  5 hr. drive in the Interior, in the Okanagen, large fruits = are best=20 grown, such as apples, stone fruits, etc.
  Our area is a lush evergreen rain forest. = Nature forces=20 are very strong, almost overwhelming, especially in BC.  We have = raccoons,=20 visiting our gardens and occasionally bears and sometimes = deer.
  As I did this morning, I will go = snowshoeing up=20 one of the nearby mountains tomorrow, only 20 min. drive from my = house.  I=20 can go water skiing or kayaking 15 min. in similar direction.  This = part of=20 Vancouver is really  part of a hugh network of parks and nature is = never=20 far away, yet I can be downtown in 30 min. 
 
Take care, all the best for Y2K ( I see = you have still=20 inherited those two "letters") Michael
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 TONY NELSON-SMITH <tangolf@cwcom.net>
To: = bdnow@envirolink.org <bdnow@envirolink.org>
D= ate:=20 Saturday, December 25, 1999 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: = Solstice=20 Greetings/other/RS

ÿþ =20
Dear Michael:  Thanks for your = greetings -=20 blessings and best wishes to you and yours, in return.  I = almost had a=20 university teaching job in Vancouver, years ago, and a number of = friends or=20 colleagues visit it regularly and speak enthusiastically about the=20 region.  Your situation sounds rather more dramatic than = mine.  I=20 live on the north side of the Gower peninsula, just west of = Swansea. =20 Gower is best known for its south and west coasts, which have sandy = bays set=20 into limestone cliffs, some of them good for surfing, but our house = faces=20 Llanelli across the Burry Inlet.  This is a shallow estuary = best known=20 for its cockles (a traditional poor-man's clam) and the = seabirds which=20 feed on them.  We are on the southern edge of the once very = productive=20 South Wales coalfield (which produced anthracite of such good = quality that=20 it was once exported to colonial New England to heat the greenhouses = of the=20 rich) and I live in a converted pithead building;  hence the=20 surrounding soil was originally a mix of broken shale and cinders = overlying=20 heavy glacial boulder-clay.  We are at the foot of a hill = which=20 protects us from the prevailing south-westerly gales but also means = that we=20 get direct winter sun only for the middle 2-3 hours of the = day;  being=20 on the spring-line means that we are never dried out in summer, but = very wet=20 in winter.  Slugs are our greatest problem and I intend to get = around=20 to using a jauche of rotted slug when I've figured out the proper = potency=20 and correct time to apply it (any experience of this?).  First = organic,=20 then BD gardening has improved the soil no end - the slugs greatly=20 appreciate my vegetables!
    =     I=20 exaggerated a bit - we did, actually, see the moon's disc moving = away from=20 the sun for a very brief period between clouds, immediately after = the=20 eclipse:  I photographed it and used the picture for a Winter = Solstice=20 greetings card for my non-Christian friends.  In case you're=20 interested, I'll attach it in JPEG format (278 Kb).
    =     Greetings=20 to all BDers:  Nadolig llawen a blwyddyn newydd=20 = dda!           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;=20 Tony N-S.
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF4FE2.52E36260-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 27 11:06:12 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07977 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:06:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06854; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:00:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmx02.mail.com (rmx02.mail.com [165.251.32.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06113 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 10:56:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from web11.mail.com (web11.pub01.mail.com [165.251.32.21]) by rmx02.mail.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA16629 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:00:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <383963429.946310425996.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:00:25 -0500 (EST) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: French Tarragon wanted Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.19.154.180 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2789 If anyone will be dividing French tarragon this spring, I would love some plants. I could trade for hyssop, yarrow, silver king, or?? Please let me know soon, as I'll need to order from a commercial source if I can't find any biodynamically grown. Thanks, Pam DeTray ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 27 11:38:55 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08437 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:38:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12278; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:33:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11337 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:29:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.17.134]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:33:39 +0000 Message-ID: <000d01bf5088$597b7260$86112cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: <000201bf5026$31cc11a0$9a9dafc7@333> Subject: Re: Vanc. etc. Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:33:48 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF5088.26B47C00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2790 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF5088.26B47C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Michael - yes, it would have been UBC, as a marine biologist = (plenty of that around, I guess!). Your crops, if not your biome, are = rather reminiscent of the area around Dundee in Scotland. I'm getting a = bit long in the tooth for action sports but South Wales is good for = diving, caving, hill-walking and very occasional skiing, kayaking and = hang-gliding as well as surfing. Some parts are beautiful, others = appallingly dreary and ugly (coal-mining valleys and steelworks/oil = refineries on the coastal flats - nearly all of them with only a = fraction of the previous work-force, hence much unemployment). I was feeling a bit guilty about continuing an apparently = personal correspondence on BDNow!, but it occurs to me that it would be = interesting if regular contributors more frequently posted something = about themselves and their region - how about a 'Who's Who' section in = the archives, Allan? Thanks for calling my attention to 'my letters' - I wonder how = to get rid of them (or should I keep them as an eccentricity to puzzle = newcomers?). When my last posting appeared on my own screen, I also = noticed that it ended with a line of queries which I'd certainly not = keyed in. What a strange thing is e-mail! 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;=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;= =00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00 =00=0D=00=0A= =00T=00o=00n=00y=00 = =00N=00-=00S=00.=00<=00/=00F=00O=00N=00T=00>=00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00<=00= /=00B=00O=00D=00Y=00>=00<=00/=00H=00T=00M=00L=00>=00=0D=00=0A= =00 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF5088.26B47C00-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 27 11:38:58 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08445 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:38:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12341; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:34:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11346 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:29:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.17.134]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:33:37 +0000 Message-ID: <000c01bf5088$5888d500$86112cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: <0.d0516406.2597c541@aol.com> Subject: Re: THE TRUE HOLIDAY SPIRIT Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:19:12 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2791 Thanks for tweaking our complacency about allegedly Christian festivals. I was reading that December 25th was chosen because the ancients believed that the world was created on March 25th: hence the Saviour, who was to make all things new, must also have been created on that date. December 25th, of course, occurs nine months later. It was also a convenient way to hijack all the pagan festivals occurring at the turning of the year, many of which you mention. Interesting comment about the use of the Christmas tree to represent the Tree of Knowledge; anyone know about the use of red roses to decorate the tips of its branches ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 27 14:43:31 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11068 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 14:43:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06657; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 14:38:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d10.mx (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06129 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 14:33:55 -0500 (EST) From: NEILLCO@aol.com Received: from NEILLCO@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.0.e4172b9a (4187) for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 14:37:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.e4172b9a.25991a08@aol.com> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 14:37:44 EST Subject: Re: growing in small places To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 146 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2792 Dear Martha, Thank you for responding to my thread. I'll try some of the varieties you mentioned. R.B. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 27 17:23:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12528 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 17:23:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA26210; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 17:18:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from www0i.netaddress.usa.net (www0i.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.38]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA26118 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 17:17:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 3113 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Dec 1999 22:22:02 -0000 Message-ID: <19991227222202.3112.qmail@www0i.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.38 by www0i for [142.176.90.107] via web-mailer(M3.3.1.96) on Mon Dec 27 22:22:02 GMT 1999 Date: 27 Dec 99 14:22:02 PST From: cramer gefren To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: growing in small spaces X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.3.1.96) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id RAA26121 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2793 Re: growing food in small spaces/balconies I grow some things on a glassed-in porch, year round, using 6" or 10" plastic pots, set in plastic trays (for watering). Summer plants: several varieties of peppers and cherry or small tomatoes (pinched back for manageable size), as well as basil. Cool nights here near the coast mean no peppers or tomatoes until August unless they are grown under glass or inside. Fall through winter crops: scallions (quite a few fit in a pot), coriander, kale, winter lettuce, mei qing choy. These are started in late summer, since they don't grow much once winter arrives. Temperatures go down to -6 Celsius at night and these all survive nicely. I put vermiculite and peat in with the soil to lighten the weight and fertilize with fish extract. No grand feast, but a good addition of winter greens. Nancy Geffken ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 27 23:13:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15185 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 23:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08662; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 23:06:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08516 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 23:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.188] (pm3shep4-163-188.intrepid.net [209.190.163.188]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA19963 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 23:09:24 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:37:43 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF:FWD: Are Somatic Cell Clones Really Clones? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2794 >Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 17:03:20 -0700 >From: Ross Gould >Organization: @Home Network >X-Accept-Language: en >To: *Ross Gould Lists >Subject: Are Somatic Cell Clones Really Clones? >Sender: owner-graze-l@Vulcan.taranaki.ac.nz >Reply-To: Ross Gould > >Good Afternoon List Friends, >This is a fascinating snip from the University of Guelph "AnimalNet" >news clipping service. It reveals that the Roslin Institute who created >the four genetically identical sheep, Cedric, Cecil, Cyril and Tuppence, >are finding that the animals have grown up with dramatic differences in >their appearance and behaviour. > >Thought many of you might be interested in the implications. > >Regards >Ross Gould > >======================================== >DIFFERENCES BETWEEN CLONES BAFFLES SCIENCE >December 26, 1999 >Ottawa Citizen > Jonathan Leake > The Sunday Times >The creators of Dolly the sheep have discovered that cloning technology >will >not produce carbon copies of complex animals after breeding four >genetically >identical sheep, Cedric, Cecil, Cyril and Tuppence, and finding that the >animals have grown up with dramatic differences in their appearance and >behaviour. > Keith Campbell, who worked on the cloning program at the Roslin >Institute >in Edinburgh and who helped to create the four ram clones, was cited as >saying that the animals had increasingly diverged from one another with >age, >adding, "They look similar, as sheep from the same breed do, but you >would >not know they are clones." >This story explained that the film, Boys from Brazil starring Gregory >Peck, >portrayed such a possibility with Hitler clones created round the world >by >renegade Nazi scientists. Some foresaw serious, according to this story, >commercial applications such as the cloning of top racehorses or pet >dogs. >Mr. Campbell is, this story explained, unable to say exactly why the >animals >differ: research into the causes has not been done. High among the >possibilities is the fact that the four-cell nuclei, from which they >were >created, were placed into egg cells and cytoplasm from different female >sheep that could have interacted with the introduced nuclei in slightly >different ways. This story explained that in particular, the >mitochondria, >the parts of the cell that convert chemicals into energy, contain >separate >DNA, amounting to about three per cent of that found in the nucleus. It >means that the mitochondrial DNA from each of the different mothers may >have >interacted with the nuclei in ways that could have been different enough >to >alter the growing embryo and hence the adult sheep. > Dr. Harry Griffin, assistant director for science at Roslin, was cited >as >saying that the quality of the eggs would also have varied, adding, >"Just >like in women undergoing fertility treatment, the eggs of sheep can vary >in >quality and that will help determine the viability of the embryo and >possibly the appearance of the adult." >This story further explained that other factors that could make clones >appear different from one another include mutation where cells fail to >replicate perfectly as they divide. If this happened in an embryo it >could >affect all the subsequent cells and so slightly alter the resulting >adult. >Additionally, the genes that control the way an animal grows or behaves >are >subject to a switching system so that they turn themselves on and off at >the >appropriate times. In humans, these switches control factors such as >growth >or the onset of puberty but they are also subject to environmental >factors >that could be different between clones. > The Roslin researchers were cited as saying that overall their results >show >that the resurrection of lost loved ones, human or animal, will never be >possible using the method that created Dolly. > Such assertions will, according to this story, disappoint cloning >enthusiasts such as Dr. Richard Seed, an American scientist who followed >the >announcement of Dolly's creation by setting up a program to create the >first >human clone. He was cited as believing that cloning could become a >legitimate treatment for infertility and could enable bereaved families >to >replace lost loved ones. Spin-off technologies could help to slow or >reverse >human ageing by replacing old body parts with cloned new ones. > Mr. Campbell, who has moved to take up a new post at Nottingham >University, >was quoted as saying, "The only real clones are identical twins and >anyone >who really knows twins understands that even they have different >features >and personalities." >Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; > name="srgould.vcf" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Description: Card for Ross Gould >Content-Disposition: attachment; > filename="srgould.vcf" > -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Dec 27 23:13:27 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15187 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 23:13:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08717; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 23:06:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08539 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 23:05:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.188] (pm3shep4-163-188.intrepid.net [209.190.163.188]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA20016 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 23:09:43 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:47:47 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: ADMIN: If You've Got a Moment Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2795 Would you mind pointing your browser at http://www.igg.com/bdnow and letting me know how this page looked in your brower (ie does the 46k image load fully?) Please reply to me at csa@claymont.org or through the list. Thanks -Allan Balliett -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 28 00:51:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16234 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 00:51:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA19364; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 00:46:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (root@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.253.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19250 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 00:45:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from eatwell.com (dcn133.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.253.133]) by wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.9.3/DCN8.9.3.1) with ESMTP id VAA06174 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 21:49:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38684F73.A0326DA7@eatwell.com> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 21:49:39 -0800 From: Nigel Walker X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: French Tarragon wanted References: <383963429.946310425996.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2796 Dear Pam Try Andy Griffin at Maraquita Farm in Watsonvile CA his number is 831 761 3226 regards Nigel Walker Pam DeTray wrote: > If anyone will be dividing French tarragon this spring, I would love some > plants. I could trade for hyssop, yarrow, silver king, or?? > Please let me know soon, as I'll need to order from a commercial source if I > can't find any biodynamically grown. > > Thanks, > Pam DeTray > > ----------------------------------------------- > FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com > Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 28 04:06:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA17516 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 04:06:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA07394; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 04:00:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA06987 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 03:56:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.80] (r-67.80.alltel.net [166.102.67.80]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id DAA00821 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 03:00:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199912241848.MAA06008@portal.txcyber.com> <0.8cae0e92.258bc17f@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 00:21:12 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: growing in small places Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2797 >>Hydroponics is a very heavy medium to grow in, besides >>the water, it usually involves (or used to) gravel and >>rocks as well. And, I know there are a few organic >>gardeners who use hydroponics, but the kits and >>instructions do lean to chemicals more than organic/ >>natural methods. Of course, if you did choose water as >>your growing medium and determined to keep it >>organic, you might be also able to grow fish as a ready >>food source in similar situations. I'm sure there other >>ideas on list also. >>Martha, (Texas) > >IMHO, hydroponics is not so much a solution for growing in tough places as >it is a marketing plan. Hydroponics was chosen as the method of agriculture >for Biosphere II and then dropped late in the planning cycle due to the >fact that it is not sustainable and is very expensive in the long run. (The >cost of all those 'micro mineral mini-packs' add up!!) Beyond the, for pure >food enthusiasts, the secrets remain in the soil. Hydroponics assumes that >science knows exactly what a plant needs; I'll have to stick with my >assumption that healthy soil - with the BD preps properly applied - >contains what is really needed to grow pure food, bringing in nutritional >'substance,' as it does, from both below and above. > >-Allan Balliett Hydroponics? Consider this. The ether, which is the insubstantial organizational force that permeates substance and is especially rich in organ-isms and organic forms in general parallels the states of matter that in an earlier age were called the elements--fire, air, water and earth. As each state of matter becomes more condensed the ether associated with it becomes more intensified. Thus in the radiant, fire state we have warmth as the organizing principle. In the gasseous, air state we have light. In the liquid, water state we have sound or harmonious/dissonant associations of molecules that we know as chemistry. Lastly in the solid, earth state we have the most intense condition of the ether which is known in BD circles as the life ether. Hydroponics grows plants in a solution of water loaded with various soluble chemicals, but this does not provide the most organizational forces. Steiner's second agricultural lecture points out these solid state organizational, etheric forces are most intense in the crystalizing period (in the northern hemisphere) in mid winter when they are received in the siliceous rocks of the earth and transmitted to plants by way of clay. The only way to get these forces in our food is to grow it in soil rather than hydroponic tanks. Thus I don't know of any attempts to pass off hydroponically grown food as biodynamic. There just isn't any way it measures up. So it wouldn't make any difference if it was cheap and efficient, it grows watery food that simply doesn't have that much life force. It is insights like this that set biodynamics apart from the rest of the organic movement, which simply doesn't know this sort of thing. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 28 08:05:05 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18431 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:05:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA27036; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 07:59:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ww182.netaddress.usa.net (ww182.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.82]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA26859 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 07:58:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 12172 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Dec 1999 13:02:47 -0000 Message-ID: <19991228130247.12171.qmail@ww182.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.82 by ww182 for [142.176.90.118] via web-mailer(M3.3.1.96) on Tue Dec 28 13:02:47 GMT 1999 Date: 28 Dec 99 05:02:47 PST From: cramer gefren To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: BD preps, Chernobyl fallout & preps' potency X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.3.1.96) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id HAA26861 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2798 I read in a BD publication from some years ago that European BD growers were hoping that the use of the preps would mitigate the effects of fallout from Chernobyl. Does anyone know if this orked or could even be measured? I am wondering how powerful the preps could be to reverse radiation damage. We spray 500 & 501, make compost and use 508 as needed regardless of what is going on. Yet homeopathy adjusts the dose and potency depending on the health of the person or animal and the severity of symptoms. Is there anything inBD to ake account of severe versus normal conditions? Sequential spraying addresses this for drought (and weather generally?). But are any of you experimenting with increasing the potency of preps to respond to specific problems? ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 28 08:58:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19168 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:58:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02096; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:51:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01833 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:49:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.188] (pm3shep4-163-188.intrepid.net [209.190.163.188]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA09442 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:53:33 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:55:21 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Fwd: Minerals in Food Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2799 >X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to >owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f >Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 07:40:30 -0500 >To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu >From: Hugh Lovel >Subject: Minerals in Food >Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > >Dear Mark, et. al., > >Some organic vegetables DO have more minerals and a better profile of >minerals--most notably biodynamically grown ones. There is quite a lot of >variation. For example, I grow the sweetest turnips. I grow them as a >companion plant in my winter rye cover crops and they never have enough >nitrate content to have any bitter taste. If you consider nitrate content >as a mineral, then they don't have much of this kind of mineral. But they >have enough calcium, magnesium, potassium, etc. to weigh several pounds >more per bushel than the kind you ordinarily get in the stores, and >commonly they outweigh the organic ones in the whole foods stores too. > >One of the measures of mineral content, the brix reading made with a >refractometer, is usually thought of as a measure of plant sugars, but >there is a correlation between minerals and plant sugars that works like >this. A plant builds up higher levels of plant sugars when it has enough >calcium and other minerals in its cell walls to block the radiation of >infrared energy that plants commonly undergo at night. It is common >knowledge that sugars build up as a result of photosynthesis, but it is >less commonly known that they may convert these sugars back into radiation >and give it off at night if they don't have sufficient mineral content to >shield this radiation from escaping. Calcium is the most important mineral >here, but since such things as boron are essential for calcium uptake and >utilization by plants they are important too. What can markedly INCREASE a >plant's loss of infrared radiation is nitrogen salts such as ammonia, >nitrates, urea, etc. There are huge variations in brix measurements and >mineral content between different growers and some chemical growers do a >good job here and some organic growers don't. > >What a lot of people DON'T know is there can be huge differences in the >organizational forces present in the growing medium and that this can have >a large effect on the quality of what is grown. I'm copying a post I sent >to the BDNow! List about hydroponics as it contains some useful even if a >bit arcane information about organizational forces. > >Hydroponics? Consider this. The ether, which is the insubstantial >organizational force that permeates substance and is especially rich in >organ-isms and organic forms in general (Reich called this "orgone" energy) >parallels the states of matter that in an earlier age were called the >elements--fire, air, water and earth. As each state of matter becomes more >condensed the ether associated with it becomes more intensified. Thus in >the radiant, fire state we have warmth as the organizing principle. In the >gasseous, air state we have light. In the liquid, water state we have sound >or harmonious/dissonant associations of molecules that we know as >chemistry. Lastly in the solid, earth state we have the most intense >condition of the ether which is known in BD circles as the life ether. >Hydroponics grows plants in a solution of water loaded with various soluble >chemicals, but this does not provide the most organizational forces. >Steiner's second agricultural lecture points out these solid state >organizational, etheric forces are most intense in the crystalizing period >(in the northern hemisphere) in mid winter when they are received in the >siliceous rocks of the earth and transmitted to plants by way of clay. The >only way to get these forces in our food is to grow it in soil rather than >hydroponic tanks. Thus I don't know of any attempts to pass off >hydroponically grown food as biodynamic. There just isn't any way it >measures up. So it wouldn't make any difference if it was cheap and >efficient, it grows watery food that simply doesn't have that much life >force. It is insights like this that set biodynamics apart from the rest of >the organic movement, which simply doesn't know much about this sort of >thing. > >Best, >Hugh Lovel > >P.S. I might add to the above that as we have poisoned the earth and eroded >its topsoils we have diminished the vitality of soils, the atmosphere, >rainfall and the earth as a whole. There simply isn't as much natural life >force available as there used to be either for chemical or organic growers. >Unless the grower is doing something to replenish the life (organizational) >forces in his growing environment the produce will be lower in minerals, >sugars, complex amino acids (complete protein rather than so-called crude >protein) and so forth. When there is enough water available this produces >watery vegetables, but this condition is also reflected by greater >incidence of drought, especially when the atmospheric life forces related >to fruiting and ripening are deadened by pollution. Then you can have a >situation such as we had at our Atlanta organic farmers' market this past >summer where the two farms that best survived the drought and had the most >produce to sell were both using biodynamic preparations. > >HL > >Mark wrote: > > >>While I am an organic gardener, I posted a similar question a while ago >>because I too was told that "organic vegetables have more nutrients" than >>conventional ones. After many responses from the group it became clear >>that this was an old saw that had been passed around for years, and that >>the only measurable difference between organic and conventional vegetables >>was that organic had more dry matter. While I would welcome information >>supporting the claims we have heard, I think advocates of organic >>production need to emphasize the clear benefits of the practice: soil >>stewardship, safer for farmers and farmworkers and not laced with chemicals >>for consumers. >> >>Mark >>---------------------------------------------------- >>Community Involved in Sustaining Agriculture (CISA) >>An independent non-profit organization. >> >>http://www.buylocalfood.com >> >>893 West Street >>Amherst MA 01002-5001 >>T: 413-559-5338 >>F: 413-559-5404 >> >> >>To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >>To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". >> >>All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >>http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 28 08:58:57 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19176 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:58:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02145; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:51:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01905 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:49:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.188] (pm3shep4-163-188.intrepid.net [209.190.163.188]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA09510 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:54:09 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:56:41 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Fwd: Farm Subsidies? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2800 >X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to >owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f >Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 07:40:20 -0500 >To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu >From: Hugh Lovel >Subject: Farm Subsidies? >Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > >Greg Gunthorp wrote: > > >>Not sane. A sustainable agriculture is going to have to include livestock. >>What would be sane is a program that does not encourage the overproduction >>of grain and instead would produce the sane production of animals in >>grass/legume based systems. Humans were intended to eat meat. Humans were >>not intended to eat animals that are raised on top of their own fermenting >>manure in damp sunless buildings, pumped full of antibiotics, fed animal >>by-products, fed the fat from McDonalds fryers etc. >> >>Best wishes, >>Greg Gunthorp >>Free range pig, chicken, and rabbit producer > >As someone who embraced the ideals of teachers like Helen and Scott Nearing >and Stephen Gaskin and thought I would move to the country, become a >vegetarian and farm without animals, and who thought if we weren't feeding >so much grain to animals we could support a lot more people with full >stomachs I was in for quite a rude awakening. > >I found I could NOT farm successfully without animals. Indeed, I couldn't >keep the animals away. Bees, earthworms, and everything in between had its >rightful place, and I found cows to be right in the middle of this as one >of the most beneficial animals in nature. I also found that as I was of >type "O" blood I was wasting away on a vegetarian diet and I got down to >135 pounds with way too little energy and too much need to lean on the hoe >handle. I ALSO found that the animal confinement operations and all that >went into operating them--particularly cash grain farming--was the worst of >what was going on in agriculture. But I found that having farm animals >didn't mean confinement operations. Those weren't farms. They were animal >factories. > >So now 24 years later I've become a successful farmer who knows how to heal >the earth and grow it into fertility and I could hardly agree with what >Greg says here more. For the ideologues who insist everyone who has animals >on their farm is keeping their animals in slavery and violating natural law >by consuming or even wearing anything from animals I have this to say. >Learn to observe what goes on in nature and how essential it is to have a >balance between plants and animals if you want a healthy, fertile ecology. >And learn to do your own thinking. Either that or suffer the consequences >of subscribing to a dogmatic mindset. > >While Dave Miller's proposal (below) has some very good points to it, I >hope he will take into account the things I'm saying above. > >Best, >Hugh Lovel > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Dave Miller >>To: sanet >>Date: Thursday, December 23, 1999 11:01 AM >>Subject: Farm Subsidies Are Unfair >> >> >>>Sane or Not? >>> >>> I am pleased to offer the following propositions for next year's >>>National Nutrition Summit designed to reduce the national incidence of >>>obesity and generally improve our nation's health: >>> >>>* Congress should eliminate preferential subsidies for fatty animal >>>agricultural products. >>> >>> Because of their overwhelming political clout, producers of meat and >>>dairy products and the associated feedcrops are granted a >>>disproportionate >>>share of American agricultural subsidies. Producers of wholesome >>>vegetables, fruits, and grains and legumes raised for human consumption >>>deserve a more level playing field in competing for the American food >>>dollar. >>> >>>* USDA should stop dumping its meat and dairy surpluses on the School >>>Lunch >>>Program. USDA has long been using the National School Lunch Program as a >>>dumping >>>ground for surplus commodities purchased to prop up the meat and dairy >>>industries. Consequently, American children acquire lifelong dietary >>>habits >>>in schools where lunch and breakfast fare is loaded with fat, > >>cholesterol, >>>and sodium. >>> >>>* US and state governments should provide healthful nutrition education >>>in >>>schools. In addition to accepting the meat and dairy surpluses, many >>>schools >>>welcome national fat food franchises and junk food machines. Nutrition >>>education materials pushing the discredited "basic four food groups" are >>>provided with the compliments of the meat and dairy industries. Between >>>the >>>USDA, the fat food franchises, and the meat and dairy industries, our >>>kids >>>never have a chance to develop healthy eating habits. >>> >>> >>>* HHS should work with public interest and trade groups in promoting >>>healthful eating. The National Cancer Institute set a brilliant example >>>in encouraging formation of the Produce for Better Health Foundation to >>>interest groups to improve school lunch menus. >>> >>>* Dietary Guidelines should recommend explicitly a low-fat, low-calorie >>>plant-based diet. The 1995 Dietary Guidelines for Americans pays lip >>>service to "choosing a diet with plenty of grain products, vegetables >>>and fruits" and to "choosing a diet low in fat, saturated fat, and >>>cholesterol." Yet, it fails to recommend the only diet that complies >>>fully with these recommendations -- the plant-based vegan diet. >>> >>>FARM can be reached through the following information: >>>FARM - 1-888-ASK FARM, www.farmusa.org >>> "Saving Our Planet, One Bite At a Time" >>> >>>Recycler Dave >>> >>> >>>To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>>"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >>>"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >>>To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>>"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". >>> >>>All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >>>http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail >>> >> >> >>To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >>To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". >> >>All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >>http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 28 11:42:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21402 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 11:42:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22500; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 11:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22367 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 11:35:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.15.183]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Tue, 28 Dec 1999 16:39:53 +0000 Message-ID: <002e01bf5152$63882c60$b70f2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: Re: ADMIN: If You've Got a Moment Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 16:35:20 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2801 Yes, Allan, the whole thing looks good and the image loaded within seconds. Was it you, and why are you flipping a pancake by the side of a lake? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 28 12:09:32 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21954 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:09:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26975; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:04:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26606 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:02:17 -0500 (EST) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.0.cee2773a (3858) for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:06:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.cee2773a.259a47fc@aol.com> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:06:04 EST Subject: Best watering times To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2802 I've seen probably 6 different "recommended" best times for watering plants throughout organic and conventional farming magazines & publications, though I'm curious, does anyone knows if Steiner or Pfeiffer ever wrote or talked about what the best times for watering were? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 28 12:33:09 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22315 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:33:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00140; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:28:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29750 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:25:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.153] (pm3shep3-163-153.intrepid.net [209.190.163.153]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18371 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:30:08 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002e01bf5152$63882c60$b70f2cc3@m00q6c00> References: <002e01bf5152$63882c60$b70f2cc3@m00q6c00> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:25:44 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: ADMIN: If You've Got a Moment Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2803 >Yes, Allan, the whole thing looks good and the image loaded within seconds. >Was it you, and why are you flipping a pancake by the side of a lake? >Tony N-S. No, it's not me, Tony. Although, for almost thirty year's now there have been individuals making certain that I got a woman's education, I'm not a woman yet... ;=) It's a picture from the workshop that Hugh led at Rudolf Steiner College in Northern California last year. That's the Sacramento River in the background, and that's some of Harold Hoven's BD-500 being joyfully flung onto the lush riverside meadow at sunset. Hopefully the wonderful uncredited women in this beautiful shot by the gifted environmental photographer, Doug Mason (of Maya Quest fame), won't be suing me for this infringement of privacy! :-) Doug sells incredible gallery-quality prints of his BD pictures, btw. Thanks for checking out the new splash page, Tony (and others!) -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 28 13:36:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23456 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 13:36:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09405; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 13:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08851 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 13:25:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d140.infoserve.net [199.175.157.140]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA21642 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 10:33:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003101bf5162$325158a0$8c9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: bdnow site Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 10:30:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF511E.9EB51700" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2804 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF511E.9EB51700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Allan, Bdnow site very easy to navigate, looks good. I see that it is not = quite finished at the moment. Michael ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF511E.9EB51700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Allan,
 
  Bdnow site very = easy to navigate,=20 looks good. I see that it is not quite finished at the moment.=20 Michael
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF511E.9EB51700-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Dec 28 15:30:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24993 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 15:30:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24735; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 15:23:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from wave.sheridan.wy.us (root@wave.sheridan.wy.us [206.54.116.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24227 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 15:19:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from dbrown (vcn8.usrnet-3.sher.wy.vcn.com [209.193.70.147]) by wave.sheridan.wy.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA24922 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 13:21:12 -0700 Message-ID: <009d01bf517a$83ffc2a0$9346c1d1@dbrown.wavecom.net> From: "Audrey Malan" To: Subject: Re: Maria Thun/Stella Natura Wall Calendar Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 13:28:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2805 Hi Allan, If there are any calendars left, I would like to reserve one. Will wait to hear from you before I send the check - thanks, Audrey -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, December 16, 1999 11:15 AM Subject: Re: Maria Thun/Stella Natura Wall Calendar >Audrey - You can reserve via email and mail a check. Money orders are a >favorite because they cause less trouble at the bank. Charge cards, of >course, pay less on this end. However, if you do want to call with your >number, you are welcome to. The voice mail is digital and, as far as I've >been told, is secure, so leave your number AND shipping directions there. >(304) 724-6763. > >Thanks! -Allan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 29 19:15:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA06835 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 19:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA06172; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 19:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05848 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 19:05:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.198] (pm3shep4-163-198.intrepid.net [209.190.163.198]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA15677 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 17:53:11 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <009d01bf517a$83ffc2a0$9346c1d1@dbrown.wavecom.net> References: <009d01bf517a$83ffc2a0$9346c1d1@dbrown.wavecom.net> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 17:52:03 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Maria Thun/Stella Natura Wall Calendar Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2806 >Hi Allan, >If there are any calendars left, I would like to reserve one. Will wait to >hear from you before I send the check - thanks, Audrey > >-----Original Message----- >From: Allan Balliett >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Thursday, December 16, 1999 11:15 AM >Subject: Re: Maria Thun/Stella Natura Wall Calendar > > >>Audrey - You can reserve via email and mail a check. Money orders are a >>favorite because they cause less trouble at the bank. Charge cards, of >>course, pay less on this end. However, if you do want to call with your >>number, you are welcome to. The voice mail is digital and, as far as I've >>been told, is secure, so leave your number AND shipping directions there. >>(304) 724-6763. >> >>Thanks! -Allan First off, to everyone who has ordered, Maura and I are WAY BEHIND. Hosting Shep Ogden at Claymont ate up much more time than we anticipated. As soon as that wonderful event was over, we actually realized how far behind we were on Christmas preparations!!! And it hasn't stopped!!! (Great alcohol-free New Years celebration here starting Thursday night, if you are interested, btw!!) ANYAY, most people are ordering calendars in sets of THREE, so they won't be here much longer. I'm finishing up the actual calendar www page (an excuse to talk about celestial planting calendars, you know) and then will advertise this fundraiser through the other natural gardening 'net groups and, finally, on amazon.com. So, yes, reserve your copies now, because when these are gone - - and they soon will be!! - - they will be gone until NEXT YEAR!! Thanks for your interested!!! -Allan Balliett POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Dec 29 19:34:06 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA06975 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 19:34:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA07714; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 19:28:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com ([216.33.149.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA07528 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 19:25:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 93834 invoked by uid 0); 29 Dec 1999 05:43:17 -0000 Message-ID: <19991229054317.93833.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.138.182.197 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 21:43:17 PST X-Originating-IP: [205.138.182.197] From: "Charles Premoe" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: ADMIN:"Painlessly" Supporting BD Now! Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 21:43:17 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2807 Dear Allan Balliett: My e-mail is bursting at the seams and although I enjoy reading everyones comments and responding too an occasional few I must ask to unsubscribe to the list at this time. I just don't have the time to keep up with all the mail. I will however continue to search for info on School of The Ozarks, and send it to you just as soon as I can locate it. Also have you ever given thought to creating a chat room to perhaps add to or replace the list concept. It would be more specific to meet the needs of the idividual instead of duplicating alot of the same information. Thank you so much. Charles Premoe capremoe@hotmail.com >From: Allan Balliett >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Subject: Re: ADMIN:"Painlessly" Supporting BD Now! >Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:06:21 -0400 > > >Allan: > >I also had a thought as to how BD might receive $ support. > >Here in the state of Missouri we have what is known as, "The School of >the > >Ozark's", which is located in southern Missouri. This is a college where > >students are enrolled in various work programs that pay for their tuition > >but act also as part of their educational trainning. For instance; say a > >student wants to enroll in agriculter. This would be set up much like an > >apprenticeship program. Each student would earn their degree while >providing > >the labor force to work the farms. The students get their education and >the > >school benifits monitarily from the labor provided by enrollies through >the > >sale of goods produced. Just a thought; let me know what you think. If >you > >would like the address of the college,I will try and locate that for you >if > >you wish to check into it any further. > >Charles Premoe > >capremoe@hotmail.com > >Dear Charles - This is a good idea. Would YOU mind contacting them and >having materials mailed to me at Allan Balliett/BD Now! POB 3047 >Shepherdstown, WV 25443. It w.b. greatly appreciated. -Allan > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 30 11:54:21 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06143 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:54:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04016; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:49:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03626 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:43:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.205.125]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:47:32 +0000 Message-ID: <000a01bf52e5$ca256520$7dcd2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: <002e01bf5152$63882c60$b70f2cc3@m00q6c00> Subject: Re: ADMIN: If You've Got a Moment Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:47:55 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2808 Sorry, Allan: at first glance, light and shade on the face seemed to suggest a neatly trimmed beard and, perhaps, a small moustache. Apologies also to the uncredited lady! Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 30 14:17:07 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08042 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 14:17:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18466; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 14:11:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18246 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 14:09:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d144.infoserve.net [199.175.157.144]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA11028 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:17:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000901bf52fa$ca0833a0$909dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Happy New Year Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:19:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF52B7.B95F8140" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2809 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF52B7.B95F8140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wishing all bdnowers all the best for Y2K; those who are on-list, = lurkers and archivers. A "chat room" in addition might be a good idea = if not too expensive to add. Michael ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF52B7.B95F8140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wishing all bdnowers all = the best for=20 Y2K; those who are on-list, lurkers and archivers.  A "chat = room"=20 in addition might be a good idea if not too expensive to add.=20 Michael
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF52B7.B95F8140-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Dec 30 18:11:35 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02652 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 18:11:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19137; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 18:05:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15951 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:59:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.174] (pm3mbr4-166-174.intrepid.net [209.190.166.174]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA07237 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 18:04:15 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000901bf52fa$ca0833a0$909dafc7@333> References: <000901bf52fa$ca0833a0$909dafc7@333> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 18:07:06 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Happy New Year Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2810 >Wishing all bdnowers all the best for Y2K; those who are on-list, >lurkers and archivers. A "chat room" in addition might be a good >idea if not too expensive to add. Michael All the Best for the Holiday and all the best in 'surviving' the potential disasters of the next few days!!! -Allan Balliett PS Michael, we've tried a chatroom. It doesn't work, because of the time differences and because many of the posts on this list take the writer DAYS to prepare. What chat offeres in 'chattiness' is loses in depth. What's the point? If you wnat to open a chat link to this desk, we could do that, but, jeez, I'm neither chatty nor friendly and I've never pretended to be an authority...so, you probably are better off just sending me email!! :-) HOWEVER, if demand warrants a chatroom, sure, we could do that. -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 31 07:03:40 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA07354 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 07:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA24497; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 06:58:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA24409 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 06:52:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.135.75] (pm3bky1-135-75.intrepid.net [209.190.135.75]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA12065 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 06:57:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199912311157.GAA12065@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: Re: Government control of money supply? Date: Fri, 31 Dec 99 07:08:07 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2811 Hi folks As a lifelong politcal operative I'd like to add a few more to do-s to Hugh's list. 1. Know your candidates and support the ones who are for good, honest open government even if they may occasionally piss you off. This is especially true in local elections where every vote does count and the decisions REALLY make a difference in your life. 2. Don't trash the folks who are trying to make a difference and are willing to put themselves out there even if you are not. There are enough bad guys trashing them already. 3. Practice discrimination. You can act in love BUT only after you know the truth. There are lots of corrupt folks in position of power at every level of public life. Know who they are and don't get sucked in. 4. The brighter the light the darker the darkness. If you are on the side of the angels, expect that you'll have to face down a few devils. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 31 09:10:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09400 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:10:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27858; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:05:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA27673 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:58:42 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp270.cy-net.net [208.21.195.79]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA04182 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:03:17 -0600 Message-Id: <199912311403.IAA04182@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 07:24:21 -0600 Subject: Observancy Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2812 Hugh: Yes, you'd sent the message once already. I just wanted to thank you for your indepth e-mails. I always get a big 'shot in the shorts' when I read your wisdom. Allan was so correct when he said that an instant chat line wouldn't work simply because of the care and effort the Biodynamic group puts into their postings. Back to your topic: People can train themselves to be more alert and aware than they are. Not only in business dealings but in everyday life. (I'm not much of an alert businesswoman, but I do kinda pride myself on being alert behind the wheel of my vehicle.) An example, in my having to drive most places, it's an hour each way to get to the town I work in, so I have a lot of 'down time'. When I'm with others, I am amazed at how little they actually see. ("what deer?" ) There's a black mare notorious about getting out on the road (at night). This is a 70mph zone, so this is pretty dangerous! I knew which pasture she lived in, and finally found the weak fence spot she crawls out of. I was concerned and finally took some baling wire and made a spider's web effect to patch it so the owners could notice the gap and come put posts in. I've had to watch a sheriff shoot a horse along here that had been run over. I didn't want this one to be responsible for a wreck when I could prevent it. The same long drive, and just this past week, I watched a cow during a difficult delivery. Headed in 2 days ago, I noticed that out of 600+ cattle in a field, this one had separated herself close to the roadside fence. The rest of the huge herd were out of sight. An alarm went off. That afternoon, (at 70mph), I glanced at her, looking at some spot intently on the ground, ears forward, slightly humped. Nothing really serious, but something made me think, "she's in trouble". She had that 'look', she'd probably leaked fluid and was hoping there was a calf in it. Next morning (yesterday), I saw her lying about the same place, still upright, chewing her cud, but no calf at her side. A NICE young tiger striped cow, but I hadn't seen the breed of bull, so I figured she'd been bred too young, slipped her calf, or bull too big,, calf too big, etc., and can't get it out. Sure enough, On the way home yesterday, the rest of the herd was grazing all around and she was lying with head thrown back along her backbone. I stopped and went to prod her, but she had just died a minute or so before. The other cows weren't even alarmed yet. I felt horrible because I was the only witness out of hundreds of drivers the past couple of days. Yet, no way I could have penned her and her owners may have been resentful at any intrusion. If the cattle company that owns that field or even their close neighbors had been more observant, this could so easily have been prevented. They may regret the monetary loss, I grieve for the cow's suffering. Could have / Should have doesn't make any difference since I DIDN'T. And so in life. Not too long ago, I was called to jury duty on a simple traffic violation. (ha). The defendent chose not to hire a lawyer, and his first question to the panel (while deciding who to choose as final jury): do you have a family member who was killed due to a drunk driver? The question came to me, and it snapped, I'd been INVOLVED in this accident! I asked the arresting officer if this was an event back on July 4 weekend on the Interstate? He said yes. I turned to the judge and said 'Your Honor, I believe to have witnessed that accident, was one of the first on the scene and we used my truck & chain to pull the BURNING TRUCKS off the interstate. So, I believe I'd be biased against the defendant. ' I was excused, of course. The wreck itself was a simple matter of inattention. On I45, tho the speed is 70mph, people usually will get run off the road if they only go that fast. 75 - 85 is more the norm. I was headed to help my husband clear out his work apartment, and not in a hurry to get there. Trucks and cars whizzed past me. I passed a truck load of 'revelers', about 6 in the bed of the truck, and maybe that many in the cab itself. More cars whizzed past, 18 wheelers flew by me. The truckfull of people picked up speed and joined the rest of the speeders. Someone either tried to pass another, or something else out of control at a high rate of speed happened. I was cresting a little hill and saw dust and bumpers and heard explosions. I put my emergency blinkers on, slowed to a crawl and got in the center between both lanes so no one would whizz past me to get any more vehicles involved. Sure enough, trucks were spinning out of control, cars rolling over, looked like Dante's Inferno happening right before my eyes. As I was too afraid to pass, and was among the first on the scene, I flagged down a big trucker and we used my heavy tow chain to drag the remaining vehicles off the road while someone from the opposite side pulled people out of their wrecks. People were covered in shrouds all along the hillside, looked like so many picnic blankets gone completely insane. I don't know how they could have determined who was in the wrong on that, I just know if it was drinking involved, I was probably not going to be a good juror since I saw first-hand the gristly results. But, on an UP note on being observant, I've been witness to many many calves born, maybe an instant or two before I happened along. I've noted which cows were in heat, and helped a new mother goat defend her babies from an enraged donkey in their pasture. So, I guess it's a life - thing, and I am maybe more curious about it than the next person. so I tend to 'see' more! Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 31 10:46:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10178 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:46:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01814; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:40:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01051 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:32:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.37] (pm3mbr1-166-37.intrepid.net [209.190.166.37]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA10575 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:36:48 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:07:40 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Fwd: Re[2]: Government control of money supply? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2813 >X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to >owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f >Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 02:56:24 -0500 >To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu >From: Hugh Lovel >Subject: Re[2]: Government control of money supply? >Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > >Dear Douglas, > >Maybe I can help out here. I studied this in college and made "A"s. > >Hugh Lovel > > > > > >>Hi Roberto, >> >>This is [was going to be] off list because though interesting, it's >>not a sustainable ag topic, strictly speaking. >> >>Thursday, December 30, 1999, 10:03:15 AM, you wrote: >> >>RV> commercial banks create money, that is how they make so much of >>RV> it. >> >>OK, Roberto, let's go over this again. You are making a claim that I >>can neither refute nor confirm at this time. For discussion's sake, >>let's say banks *do* actually do this. But I don't feel you've >>explained the mechanism by which it's accomplished. >> > >Doug, >Banks actually DO do things this way. The mechanism is called the >fractional reserve system. Let's say they are required to keep on hand a >fractional reserve of 10% of the "money" that they issue as credit. This >means that if you deposit $100 dollars of cash in the bank they can put >this cash in reserve and issue credits of $1,000 against it since 10% of >$1,000 is $100. Actually it is never quite supposed to max out like this >and it works more like they issue the credit and will put it in your >account on the books. But only a small portion of the credit is out in >liquid cash at any one time. Ever wonder why banks are so interested in >serving the customers at the windows where cash flows in or out and why >checking accounts operate at such low rates? Seeing that the flow of >currency is smoothly maintained is essential to seeing that the fractional >reserve system works. So they take in $100 and by having that exchange >going at the teller's window they can loan out the $1,000 in credit and >rely on circulation, cash flow of about $100 to come back in in payments so >that they loan a thou today but get a hundred of it back today as well. >This means that when they do the books that night it comes out they only >actually loaned a net of $900 that day because they loaned $1,000 but were >repaid $100 of it. This maintains a cushion that keeps cash disbursements >covered and their reserve untouched, unused and actually in reserve. It may >sound a little complex and confusing because it is a pretty slick juggling >act. > > >>I have to assume that any credit made by a bank is backed by money > >Incorrect assumption. When you boil it down only a small fraction is backed >by any money and the rest is backed by debt. > >>that has to reside somewhere other than the banks own books. > >Some does. I realize I was a little clumsy in my description of this above, >but it's there if you puzzle through it. > >>Therefore: I understand you to be saying that banks issue credits that >>*aren't* backed by money, just as governments can create money that >>isn't backed by reserves of foreign currency, gold or something >>external. > >Quite right. Consider the practice of holding foreign currency in reserve. >If 20 or 30 countries are shuffling their currency around to hold it in >reserve and only one has anything substantial, isn't this rather like a >gigantic shell game? > >> >>(This is a dangerous thing for a government to do, btw - it's >>inflationary and can result in the devaluation of the country's >>currency, if a lack of confidence results from it, as often occurs. To >>get away with it even occasionally, a country would have to have a >>strong, productive economy in other respects. I live in Mexico where >>this was once done on a major scale and believe me, the results >>require a heavy sacrifice in order to finally be corrected). > >There's a few different things going on here. First, inflation is not based >purely on the supply of money, but also on the supply of goods. If there is >a lot of money out on loan to manufacturers and goods are plentiful and >cheap this may be deflationary even if the money markets see to it that >money supply is plentiful, deposits at banks go up while loans go down. and >fractional reserves grow. Conversely if you tighten the supply of cash >when goods are scarce and drive up the interest rates people are going to >want to borrow a lot more no matter the interest rates so they can purchase >what they need of scarce commodities. This can end up fueling inflation if >the percentage of fractional reserves shrinks, say to 5% and a $100 deposit >can then be turned into $2,000 worth of loans. Remember what the Fed did >during Jimmy Carter's re-election campaign? They had interest rates over >20% and it was a major inflationary period. Later the Fed relaxed rates >under Reagan and during his presidency the Gipper added something like 4 >trillion dollars to the Federal debt, but that was deflationary. > >> >>RV> I've posed this question so many times, even to economists, and >>RV> have almost always gotten the wrong answer: ASSUMING A RESERVE >>RV> REQUIREMENT OF 10%, HOW MUCH ADDITIONAL MONEY CAN THE BANKING >>RV> SYSTEM LEND, IF YOU DEPOSIT 100 DOLLARS IN YOUR BANK? >> >>Once again: You are saying that the credit system is generated by the >>banks themselves and that this is in accordance with the legal >>structure in most economically strong countries? >> >>RV> If your answer is 90, which is what I also thought a year ago, you >>RV> -- like almost everyone else -- are underestimating the power of >>RV> banks. >> >>RV> The correct answer is 900. Please read that again: from your 100 >>RV> dollar deposit, the banking system can lend a maximum of 900, not 90, >>RV> dollars. > >Doug, >See? It is like I said above. > >> >>RV> If the reserve requirement is 1% instead of 10%, then the banking >>RV> system can lend from your 100-dollar deposit and total of $9,900. (And >>RV> not $99, which is the most common answer.) > >Doug, >Strange as it seems to ever so many people, Roberto is right. It's a >fantastic shell game, and because of arrangements like our (US)Federal >Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) which makes the threat of a "run" of >withdrawals nearly non-existent, it is not nearly so risky for the bank as >you might think. > >> >>OK, the amount of money a bank can lend is related to the percentage >>they are required to hold in reserve. What I want to know is, *HOW* >>can they lend money they don't have? Where do they "get" it? Do they >>themselves get credit with a central bank? If this is the case, there >>are undoubted criteria that the bank has to meet in order to qualify, >>which does not exclude the possibility of that a "bankers club" exists >>(but that is true in most fields, as well as on sanet). Please be as >>explicit as possible, including the country you're referring to in any >>example you give. >> >>Banks have to deliver some kind of documentation to whoever receives a >>credit. You are saying that banks are "licensed" to issue documents >>that aren't backed by anything except the percentage of reserves then >>in effect. I know there is an element of trust involved, but am not >>ready to suppose that the world's "major" currencies are no better >>than a stock market, where expectations (and rumors) drive >>investments. > >This is a lot truer than you might think. Let's think back a few years to >when the Mexican peso collapsed. NAFTA had recently gone into effect and >the Mexican economy was booming with contracts for production to be sold in >the US and Canada and lots of loans (secured by leins on the factories, >chicken houses, production facilities like mines or oil that the loans >built or opened up.) made because the producer had contracts for the >production at good rates. There was plenty of new construction and lots of >jobs. Then some of the big New York banks that had been buying pesos dumped >pesos on the currency exchanges. Suddenly there were too many pesos and >nobody wanted pesos. They went to 60% and though I wasn't paying much >attention (I'm a farmer with cows to milk and vegetables to grow) I think >ithe Mexican peso went to 40% or even briefly down under 20% of its value. >The goods still left the country going north, but the rate of exchange >meant terrible prices for anything locked in on contracts--and it was the >fact there were so many contracts out there for production that fueled the >craze for loans. What do you think happened to the factories, chicken >houses, production facilities like mines, oil, etc.? When the loans could >not be paid ownership, stock, securities of whatever kind became property >of the lenders--which in many cases were the same New York banks that >collapsed the currency. Mexico is a country that is rich in raw materials >and labor. Who controls these? Sure there's bankers' clubs, licenses, >instruments of credit, central banks and trust involved. There's also >dog-eat-dog manipulations, betrayals, rumors, expectations and deception. >Big time. Please don't be naive about this. >Prime Banks are in the position of being the biggest sharks in the water, >aren't they? They didn't get to be prime banks by passing up the slow >swimmers and the unwary. Please think about this. They do seem to lend some >degree of solidity to the fabric of world banking. But why is it this >meager degree of solidity is so filled with poverty, ignorance, >environmental degredation, and political injustice? Please think about >this. I wonder where you've been all your life that you wouldn't know this >because you obviously are educated and articulate. >Might it be that you watch the nightly new strobing at you and you've been >in a hypnotic trance when downloading information? I wonder. I don't wish >to pity you or demean you. You come across as a nice guy who is asking some >good questions and deserves to wake up. > >> >>The fact that foreign currencies are generally involved in the >>reserves of a given country, and the fact that banking standards >>backed by experience are taking effect in more and more countries; >>would seem to lend some degree of solidity to the cloth of the worlds >>banking system, at least where major "Prime Banks" are concerned, even >>if the gold standard is past history and admittedly, none of this >>guarantees social justice. >> >>Please explain exactly how what you describe is done within the >>European Community and the U.S. economies (which are still setting the >>pace in finance, for now). >> >>Douglas Hinds >> > >Douglas, >I'm out of time for this and have to be brief. Besides you need to start >figuring these things out for yourself. Europe and the US are where the big >sharks are lounging for the moment, particularly the US. Gas has been cheap >for a long time. The roads are good and people have been edging up into >bigger and bigger cars for a long time. There's a LOT of petroleum involved >in domestic production. The dollar has been strong, strong and credit has >been expanding for a long time. What do you suppose is likely to happen >next? > >And let me throw this at you since I'm a farmer. Summer grass has been at a >premium in Texas for a couple three years. (Actually I'm in Georgia market >gardening, but from time to time I get a little information about other >places. I'd like you to think about something you can follow in most any >newspaper.) Grains have been low. Partly this is due to the fact that way >too many farmers are locked into cash grain farming and too few are >grazing, which is environmentally disasterous and exacerbates the kinds of >summer droughts we've been having. It can be environmentally constructive >to graze, but cash grain farming is notorious for being environmentally >ruinous. Cow/calf operations depend on grass while feedlots depend on >grain. Now you might think that if there isn't enough grass there won't be >that many cows and calves, but in agriculture you've got to realize there's >lots of lead time. Without grass this past summer brood cows couldn't be >fed well enough and had to be sold for hamburger which drove that price >down and it may take two years to rebuild these herds. In many cases baby >calves could hardly be given away. Texas brood herds were decimated. Feeder >beef for the feedlots were a different story. Beef prices were down in >general, you see, feedlots were feeding out the previous year's calves on >cheap grain and that sure didn't help prices either. Anything that could be >fattened for better cuts went to the feedlots, which just incidentally are >an abomination both in terms of their inhumanity and their environmental >ruinousness. Now with corn prices so low cash grain farmers are numb with >shock beef prices are rising because there's not enough feeder beef to fill >the feedlots, and this demand for new brood herds and young stock to feed >is driving calves back up. Farmers will be paying through the nose for >calves they were giving away last summer. Farmer's tend to lose when hay >and grain are poor AND paradoxically they tend to loose when these are >abundant. But sometimes and some farmers tend to win some of the time. >Droughts, floods, market cycles and lead times are cyclical and there's >options and choices and if one is a really savvy grower, in tune with the >cycles, well-informed, foresighted and a bit lucky it's a pretty exciting, >even rewarding, game. Local, regional and national trends can mean a lot in >terms of the options to cash in fairly well, but commodity manipulators >have a lot of advantages. For one thing, they are so much more liquid than >producers that it isn't funny. Consider what happens to these options when >things like NAFTA and GATT go into effect and manipulators can catch >regional producers in one part of the world at a time when prices and >production are doing well and import enough from another part of the world >to drive prices down and buy up the successful production cheap and then >whisk what they bought up cheap to another part of the world and drive >prices down and buy up production cheap, hopscotching from place to place >without end. Is it any wonder it means so much to manipulators to be able >to ship American hormone/beef to Europe or Japan who would rather keep it >out? It isn't the producers that are complaining trade barriers are unfair >so much as it is the manipulators. Make a six month study of world trade in >a basket of commodities and read between the lines who is making a killing >and who is getting screwed. It ought to be an education that will >eradicate your naivety. > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 31 10:49:51 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10219 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:49:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01966; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:44:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01236 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:32:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.37] (pm3mbr1-166-37.intrepid.net [209.190.166.37]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA10666 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:37:17 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:07:28 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Fwd: Re: Government control of money supply? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2814 >Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 03:42:06 -0500 >To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu >From: Hugh Lovel >Subject: Re: Government control of money supply? >Cc: bdnow@envirolink.org >Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org > >I can't tell if I ever sent this one! Either sending or resending >now. I often do these late at night and am half asleep. > >Hugh Lovel > > > > >Dear Mark, Misha and List Readers, > >Really, it's money men controlling government officials that control our >money supply. Why do you think so much more is spent on elections than in >salaries for political posts? Why do you suppose top officials get cushy >Fortune 500 positions upon their retirement? Why is it we are in the mess >we are in? > >In a certain sense what the "brown recluses" at the centers of their funnel >shaped webs are doing is performing the service of requiring us to raise >our individual consciousnesses or we are mutton on the hook. It's the old >story: The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Any of us who want to be >free have to get used to awareness and quit yearning for its surcease. We >needn't think of this as bad. Those who want to own everything, control >everything, centralize everything, reduce us to helpless victims, etc. are >doing us a favor with their evil schemes. > >I see an awful lot of folks who want to ignore evil and not think about it, >hoping it will go away. Then when rude awakenings come they are paralysed >with fear and they perish. Why be naive? Be suspicious! Be wary! Know your >hole card! Don't tailgate, and don't hang out in the no zone. Spot the >rattlesnake haunts. Know what time of summer a copperhead strikes at >anything. Up-end your boots and shake them out well in the morning before >slipping them on. > >The first thing you should do upon boarding a commercial airliner is spot >the emergency exit. Count the rows of seats from yours to that door, and >for that matter to any others. You may have to get out in pitch darkness >with the plane filling with water or burning or some such. If some feeble >oldster or some child is seated by that exit, trade seats so you don't have >to go over and through them to open the escape if the plane goes down. > >Pay close attention to all safety precautions. It may make all the >difference. The rest is karma--your just deserts. But this much is not. It >is the price of admission. Education is expensive and this is your tuition. >Don't make light of the "Noah's" who prepare for the worst. Learn all you >can from them. > >Do they seem to be doomsayers or am I doomsaying? Many are not, but some >are, and there is a lot to be said for incurring doom by being obsessed >with it. So construct a positive agenda and work toward it. Then, with >awareness of the possibilities of doom, its avoidance is not so impossible. > > >We see this in events such as the World Trade Organization protests in >Seattle. By and large that was a successful effort to hold the predators at >bay even if it is only for a few days, weeks or months. The winged, >incendiary lizards will be back soon enough, but there is a future as long >as we are wary and prepared. Seek awareness and answers rather than >automaticity and solutions. Wake up and take stock of what goes on. > >Passing laws against confidence artistry has never eliminated its >existence. We have both more laws against such stuff than ever AND more of >it. It is the sleepers wearing rose colored aviation goggles who make easy >marks. > >Seemingly there must be a few devils accruing horrific karma if the rest of >us are to expand our consciousness. This is why we have mercy and >forgiveness and what give these things meaning. > >Best wishes, >Hugh Lovel >Blairsville, Georgia > > > > >Misha's post: > >>Howdy, all-- >> > > >>Mark wrote: >> >>>Are you serious? Of course the government controls the money supply! >>>Unless you have a really good color copier in your basement... > > >> >>Thanks for saving me the trouble of having to say this, Mark. :^) >> >>Good heavens, people--wake up and smell the air pollution. Currency > >is, by definition, a centrally controlled system of value that has >>little--if any--connection to anything you can touch, eat, clothe >>your loved ones with, house them or yourself with, grow food upon, >>etc. Its power is mainly symbolic. Which is no less power--but those >>who accumulate abstract power have to have others do concrete reality >>for them. >> >>The history of accumulation is ancient. The powerful decided to >>centralize the food supply in Mesopotamia (so that priests and >>merchants accumulated surpluses and set themselves up to control it) >>right after the invention of agriculture and cities. There are some >>historians who argue that the history of agriculture and land use go >>hand-in-glove with the history of accumulation, oppression, and >>capitalism. >> >>Millennia later, the powerful decided to enclose land in Europe and >>destroy the notion of the commons, and to make land ownership a thing >>of documentation and legalese, rather than of concrete work, sharing, >>and knowledge. >> >>The history of America (north and south) has been of the powerful >>appropriating--by any means--others' resources, with death or >>withdrawal of life sustenance as the punishment for not going along. >> >>Resistance to these trends has been what I consider real history. As >>Salvador Allende said, just prior to being murdered by the U.S. CIA: >>"They have the force. They might be able to overcome us, but social >>processes cannot be stopped with crime or force. History is ours. The >>people make it." >> >>This is a powerful theme in imperial culture: controlling the >>resources, the means of production, the outcomes of that production, >>and the value/valuation of it. Translating common, and concrete, >>things into private, and abstract, ones. And now, with the invention >>of corporations and intellectual property, there ain't nothing don't >>have a price tag or ownership deed nailed to it. >> >>The Sacagawea coin issue is particularly ironic in this context. >> >>Thanks, all for listening, and for your thoughts on these issues. >>They are central to rethinking agriculture. >> >> >>peace >>misha >> >> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>Michele Gale-Sinex >>Communications manager >>Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison >>http://www.wisc.edu >>UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 >>Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) >>Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>A bank is a place that will lend you money >>if you can prove you don't need it. --Bob Hope >> >>To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >>"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >>To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". >> >>All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >>http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 31 11:00:18 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10336 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:00:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02788; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:54:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02398 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:47:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.37] (pm3mbr1-166-37.intrepid.net [209.190.166.37]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA13574 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:52:23 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:54:37 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: What the New Year is Bringing Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2815 I can only assume that hell has already frozen over as the millenium rolled over Australia earlier today. To whit: my good friend Greg Willis has rejoined BD Now! Unfortunately, he is coming as the bearer of some rather disappointing news, news which I'm certain he'll be happy to discuss at great length. Welcome Back, Greg!! -Allan Balliett moderator BD Now! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 31 12:24:41 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11069 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:24:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06635; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:18:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06413 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:14:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.49] (r-66.49.alltel.net [166.102.66.49]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id LAA09694 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:19:29 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:25:34 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Use of the Term "Biodynamic"--Long Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2816 >Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 12:22:23 -0500 >To: Greg Willis >From: Hugh Lovel >Subject: Use of the Term "Biodynamic"--Long >Cc: >Bcc: >X-Attachments: > >To Whomever Uses the Term "Biodynamic," > >It has finally hit the fan. > >I'm forcefully reminded of my original reaction upon finding out about >biodynamics 23 years ago. I'd thought, "This is really good farming. It >should be the sort of thing that is mainstream, conventional. It shouldn't >be relegated to the fringes, labeled with some specialized name! Let the >cheaters and poisoners have to explain what THEY are about. Biodynamics is >the real agriculture." > >Well, back then I let Heinz Grotzke talk me out of it for the time being. >I could see biodynamics was something special, and I rationalized that >maybe naming it would make it more obvious to folks it was something to be >investigated. I mentioned this in the introduction to Chapter II of my >book, A BIODYNAMIC FARM, first published in 1994. Now I see the error of >my ways. Hang on. This is going to take a little explaining. > >Some e-mail list readers may remember last year when Greg Willis waxed >hyperbolic, spewing such harsh invective against several high BD >muckymucks that he ended up self-propelled away from the list. He offended >a whole bunch of people and employed sixth grade invective, threats of >lawsuits at the drop of a hat and such like. > >It's not the sort of thing I usually admire, but I'm not so much scared by >such things as I'm inclined to be wary. I was pretty sure that at the next >turn or the one after that I too would be a target of his peculiar posts. >I kept my eyes and ears open. It never came to that. All that did happen >was I visited Greg face to face and confronted him particularly about his >attack on Steve Moore who was at that time the president of the BDA. He >assured me he knew what he was doing, had good reasons, and I should just >wait and see. > >Well, Greg may sometimes be short on tact, patience or good taste, or >maybe he has an unusual ability to be an asshole when he feels it's >needed. I don't know. But I can say I know him personally and I like him >very much. He's one of the most knowledgeable, perceptive, intuitive, and >innovative people I know in all of agriculture. In particular I'm indebted >to him for the way he went to work on the making and using of biodynamic >horn clay. It was real genius, which is to say he proceeded with >intelligence, insight, conviction and a lot of energy. I picked up on his >horn clay. He sent me samples of several types and I put them to use along >with my field broadcaster work. It proved to be the most important new >development since Steiner's Ag Course 75 years ago. I was so impressed >with the difference it made in my biodynamic farm that I just about moved >California to get him to speak and teach at my Georgia BD conference last >September. He came and I wasn't disappointed. He was superb. > >It would be hard to find a more caring, hard working and extremely >insightful presenter of BD agriculture, though at this conference we also >had Harvey Lisle who has 42 years experience in this field and has always >been one of the most innovative and forward looking people in biodynamics. >Also there was myself (on my home turf) with my sensitivity for the unity >of spirit and matter, and the wonderfully enthusiastic Lee McWhorter of >JPI which is the backbone of BD in America, Derek Trowbridge who, as his >slides and his wines showed, is a wonderfully accomplished BD wine grower, >Jeff Poppen the Barefoot Farmer who is proof that farming is fun as well >as a religious experience, and so on. The only thing lightweight about >this conference was the amount of publicity I got out ahead of time, but >that made it a more intimate experience for the lower than usual >attendance. I'm pretty sure Greg won the respect of everyone who attended, >and I believe one or two of our list readers posted remarks to the list >after the conference that they came partly to see if he was anything like >he seemed in that series of postings--and found he was not. His insights >and demonstrations of superb finesse in stirring preps were so excellent >they should have all been on film, and as I understand it, Lee McWhorter >captured a fair bit of it on some reasonably professional video recordings >and will have these available. He's given me copies but I haven't had a >chance to view them yet. > >So that's part of the background. There's more. > >Back a few years ago there was a movement to trademark the word >"Biodynamic" and its twin, "Bio-Dynamic." Chuck Beedy, the BDA Director, >and Jean Yeager, who is the present President of the BDA, explained this >to myself and other attendees at a Kimberton CSA Conference as an effort >to protect the term from use by just anyone who might decide to market >their latest coal tar perfume or synthetic rubber sneakers as biodynamic. >After all there was a real history and tradition behind this term and the >idea was the word maybe should be protected from cheap knock offs, as has, >of course, occurred with "organic" and "natural." > >Down at the gut level I didn't like this idea and was reminded of my >original feeling that at some point we needed to make this method of >agriculture so mainstream, so ubiquitous that the use of the term >"biodynamic" became passe and the bad farmers ended up with the extra >nomenclature. I suppose I had a queasy premonition that this was yet >another initiative that would keep BD out on the far fringes. However, I'm >not usually a vociferous opponent of things that I can't pick out the flaw >in and only feel uneasy about. I usually will rationalize and go along >with things though I know enough to keep my eyes open. > >When I grew up in the newspaper business I always pasted up ads and copy >by eye rather than using t-square, right-triangle and centering rule. When >I cut my driveway with a wheelbarrow and shovel, I used no transit, string >lines, stakes or tape measures. I gauge how much of this and that to add >to the sauce by eye with no cups or measuring spoons. If I had a dozer, no >doubt I'd operate it by the seat of my pants. I can be pretty perceptive, >but I'm prone to dispense with using the finest tools available for exact >knowledge unless I believe it really matters--like when adjusting the >cylinder clearances of an web-offset Hantcho magazine press for the >thickness of the ink on glossy stock or when using magnification and a >level to read the meniscus in a burette while titrating an acid to four >decimal places plus or minus three ten-thousandths. So I didn't ask >someone with real expertise in trademark law what all the implications >were of trademarking a term like "biodynamic." > >But Greg did. I have to hand it to him. > >One of the things he found out was if the BDA ever comes after anyone for >using its trademark it can't afford to stop. It's like sliding straight >down a deep mineshaft on a quarter inch greased cable, there's no >stopping. It's the road to rigid orthodoxy. I grant that someone like >Disney Studios can afford to protect their trademarks on Mickey Mouse and >Donald Duck in court. And the Demeter Association could probably afford to >protect a trademark like "Demeter Certified Biodynamic" because it already >is something so narrow it's defensible. But that is not what has been >done, and the spectre of selective and preferential prosecution ensures >that they cannot let anyone slide in using the term "biodynamic" without >using the little circle symbol and subscribing to the narrowest set of >requirements in qualifying for use of the term. > >It's one hell of a can of worms. Ultimately they'll have to make all >authors and publishers conform, the members of this list, and anyone not >certified "biodynamic" by the Demeter Association. I more or less believed >back when it first was explained to me that pretty nearly all if not all >the officers of the BDA or the Demeter Association didn't intend to go >after anyone farming with some understanding--whatever it might be--of >Steiner's insights into agriculture. Sure, I'm uneasy with anything that >paves the path to orthodoxy because orthodoxy is stagnation and ultimately >death. It darned sure doesn't have any place in biodynamic agriculture, >and is the ripest of oxymorons. > >You can read the details in the documents Greg has supplied following my >post. It's in the usual mind-numbing legalese, which I only read when I >have to--but I read this. One has to have some talent at bringing it to >life, which my long post is an effort to help with. Greg brought the whole >thing to a head by applying for a trademark on the term "BD Preps" since >that's another generic term of long history just as is "biodynamic." I >happen to know that Greg has the highest admiration and praise for Hugh >Courtney who after Josephine Porter's death took on a long and arduous job >bringing JPI into being to ensure the BD preps would be available to >anyone for the good of the earth, even the most benighted souls with the >blackest hearts in the most stygian darkness at the deepest of black holes. > >It is masterful how Greg has brought this to such a crisis. On behalf of >JPI, The BDA and Demeter, Aleen Rothschild-Seidel, Attorney at Law, >Washington, DC has petitioned the US Patent and Trademark Office with a >request for extension of time to oppose the Agri-Synthesis, Inc. >application for a trademark on the term BD Preps--once on November 26, >1999 and again on December 28, 1999. It is the December 28th request that >really tears it. In the second paragraph the silo opens up and the ICBM >appears. The Demeter Association certifies Biodynamic farms and processors >and owns the certification mark BIODYNAMIC, Registration No. 2,286,984 and >they are objecting to Agri-Synthesis. Inc.'s application to trademark the >term BD Preps. In other words, they got their trademark but they can't >allow Greg to get any ammo to fight back with when they get around to >lowering the boom on his use of the term biodynamic. > >I leave it to the reader to draw their own conclusions. I highly recommend >that as I believe folks will think of things I haven't. So far as I can >see it is now essential to living in good faith for the Demeter >Association to place their trademark of the term Biodynamic in the public >domain, thus saving the future of biodynamics from orthodoxy. If they want >to trademark anything they might apply for trademark on something suitably >specific like "Demeter Certified Biodynamic." > >In fervent sincerity, > >Hugh Lovel >Author of A BIODYNAMIC FARM, published by ACRES, U.S.A. >Union Agricultural Institute >8475 Dockery Road >Blairsville, Georgia 30512 > > > > > >Greg's post: > >>So. Everyone out there in biodynamic-land thinks that each of us has >>the right to use the word "biodynamic" as it relates to any product or >>produce we make and/or sell - no strings attached. Well, think again >>folks. Read it and weep (attachments). Two years ago I tried and tried >>to get BD people to realize what demeter and the bda were up to. >>Unfortunately what I predicted has now come true. They've notified me, >>through their attorney, of their intent to file a lawsuit against us >>unless we (Agri-Synthesis, Inc,) withdraw our application for a >>trademark on the words "BD PREPS" with the Patent and Trademark Office. >> >>In my humble opinion, guess who's next? You are. Read on. It's not >>just about "BD PREPS". It's about you. >> >>I will put the correspondence we received from their attorney, Aleen >>Rothschild-Seidel, up on our website at http://www.agsyn.com as soon as >>I can. She says she represents demeter, JPI and the bda against >>Agri-Synthesis, Inc. and me personally. It says in part: >> >> "The Demeter association certifies Biodynamic farms and processors and >>is the owner of the certification mark BIODYNAMIC, Registration >>No.2,286,984." >>... >> "The Demeter Association is opposing the registration of the mark [BD >>PREPS] on behalf of the association and also on behalf of its certified >>Biodynamic farms and processors." >>... >> "Consumers interested in Biodynamic farming and gardening associate the >>term BD PREPS with the high-quality goods produced by the JPI. If >>Agri-Synthesis[sic] uses this phrase for its products, there is a high >>likihood that the public will be confused as to the source of the >>goods. It is unfair competition as well as an infringement of JPI's >>common law trademark rights for Agri-Synthesis[sic] to 'pass off' its >>products as those of JPI or to capitalize on the good will created by >>JPI over the years. It would furthermore tarnish the reputation of JPI >>if the Agri-Synthesis[sic] goods were confused with JPI's." >> "We request that Agri-Synthesis [sic] immediately cease and disist >>using the mark BD PREPS on its products and that it withdraw its >>application for aregistration of the mark in order to avoid potentially >>costly litigation." >> >>Although we believe that we would win a legal battle over the use of "BD >>PREPS", Agri-Synthesis, Inc. will notify the complainant's attorney that >>we are withdrawing our application for use of the phrase "BD PREPS" and >>in it's stead will use another phrase that is not objectionable. >>Moreover, neither I nor Agri-Synthesis, Inc. wants to see the current >>rift in the biodynamic farming and gardening community torn asunder >>further by this kind of litigation which would serve no positive purpose >>in the long run. >> >>(JPI has never attempted to register "BD PREPS" as a trademark. Nor has >>demeter or the bda attempted to register "BD PREPS". Further musings: >>even though demeter, JPI and the bda are separate non-profit >>corporations, there are board members who have a seat on two different >>boards e.g. anne mendenhall who sits on both demeter and the bda. I >>wonder if ms. mendehall votes the bda member's dues over to support >>demeter, or does she abstain. If she does, in my opinion, it's sort of >>lining one's own pocket, in a manner of speaking. There is also a >>question of whether or not demeter can maintian its status as a 501(c)3 >>nonprofit if they own a trademark for which they charge for the usage. >>On the other hand, if they don't charge, would it be a restraint of >>trade if they limit the usage of "BIODYNAMIC" exclusively to those whom >>they certify? Hmmm. But I digress. Interesting questions, though.) >> >>We will, of course, make a formal objection with the U.S. Patent and >>Trademark Office on the registration of the word "BIODYNAMIC" which we >>consider generic owing to the fact that it has been in use in this >>country since at least 1938. And wwe encourage everyone to contact the >>PTO and do the same. But this is not enough. >> >>Agri-Synthesis, Inc. has already spent over $5,000.00 in legal fees >>trying to head off this disaster for you and all of us in the field of >>biodynamic agriculture, and to make it possible to expand biodynamics in >>the United States and the world, which in my opinion as you know, >>demeter and the bda have woefully failed to do. What is at stake here >>is not only your future as a biodynamic farmer selling your produce as >>"biodynamic" but of all biodynamic gardners, farmers and practitioners >>in the United States. This is, in my opinion, the battle for the future >>of biodynamic agriculture in the United States. >> >>Although we are confident that we will convince the PTO to deny the >>registration of "BIODYNAMIC" by demeter, Agri-Synthesis, Inc. cannot >>carry this burden alone. We need your help. Demeter/bda/JPI must be >>made to understand that there is widespread opposition to their >>co-opting the commonly accepted, used and understood term "BIODYNAMIC" >>and that their registration is a blatent and cynical attempt to control >>your business and mine. The word "BIODYNAMIC" has been published and in >>use in this country since at least 1938 and is commonly understood to >>describe a generally understood practice of farming. That fact that >>demeter would even consider trying to legally control this word by >>registering the WORD!!! as a trademark, in an extremely broadly worded >>definition (see the attachment) that encompasses virtually everything >>grown biodynamically in the United States, is, in my opinion, >>reprehensible, irresponsible and short-sighted and will cause the >>existing schism in the biodynamic community to go deeper and wider than >>ever before. The consequences for humanity are alarming, at the very >>least. >> >>So we plead with you to help resolve this problem. We know that you and >>all of the BD practitioners understand that if demeter/bda/JPI go after >>me and are successful, you're next. It's as the Presbyterian minister >>said of Hitler in Nazi Germany. To paraphrase, "When they came for the >>Jews, I didn't object because I was not Jewish; when they came for the >>trade unionists, the homosexuals and the Gypsys, I did nothing because I >>was not one of them. When they came after the others, I did not defend >>them either. Finally, when they came for me, there was no one left to >>defend me." >> >>Do we really want this to happen to biodynamic agriculture in the United >>States? What sort of example will this set for the rest of world to >>follow? Do you now see the consequences? I predicted it was going to >>happen two years ago and now it HAS happened. What does it take to get >>everyone's attention? >> >>Please understand something very important here. This is not about our >>application for the use of the phrase "BD PREPS". This is about YOUR >>right to use the word "BIODYNAMIC" freely and without restraint as you >>and others have done in this country for over 60 years. >> >>Demeter/bda/JPI cannot selectively enforce their trademark rights. They >>cannot sue me but not YOU because that allows me to sue them for >>selective enforcement, restraint of trade, malicious prosecution and so >>on. They have to sue EVERYBODY or they lose their right to sue >>ANYBODY. It never ends. The ULTIMATE Pandora's Box which will, in my >>humble opinion, ultimately destroy the biodynamic agriculture movement >>in this country, not to mention, in my opinion, backfire on demeter, th >>bda AND JPI. >> >>In my humble opinion, as I have stated repeatedly over the past two >>years, for biodynamic agriculture, this legal manuvering and abuse of >>the trademark process by demeter/bda to gain by whatever means, ethical >>or unethical, absolute control over biodynamic agriculture in this >>county, with the attendant denial of our right to use the word >>'biodynamic" with the sale of our products, without the prior approval >>of the Demeter Association, Inc. (for which I would assume we and you >>would pay cash money) is the single most destructive act, and most >>self-destructive act, in the history biodynamic agriculture in the >>United States and must be put to stop now. >> >>Greg Willis >>President >>Agri-Synthesis, Inc. >> >>Content-Type: text/html; name="ifetch4" >>Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ifetch4" >>Content-Base: "http://trademarks.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/if >> etch4?ENG+ALL+3+948440+0+0+2681+F+1 >> +1+1+NO%2f2286984" >> >> > >> >> >>>://trademarks.uspto.gov/access/search-mark.html>>ess/search-bool.html>>/trademarks.uspto.gov/access/search-num.html>>p://www.uspto.gov/go/ptdl/> >> >> >> >>>4> (1 of 1) >> >>Word MarkBIODYNAMIC Pseudo MarkBIO-DYNAMIC Owner Name(REGISTRANT) >>Demeter Association, Inc. Owner AddressBritt Road Aurora NEW YORK 13026 >>CORPORATION MASSACHUSETTS Attorney of RecordALEEN ROTHSCHILD-SEIDEL >>Serial Number75-323736 Registration Number2286984 Filing Date07/14/1997 >>Registration Date10/19/1999 Mark Drawing Code(1) TYPED DRAWING >>RegisterPRINCIPAL Other Registration Info.1999266 Published for >>Opposition07/27/1999 Type of MarkCERTIFICATION MARK Other DataThe >>certification mark as used by authorized persons certifies that the >>organic agricultural products or applications have been grown and >>processed in accordance with guidelines set out in the attached >>"guidelines and standards for the grower for demeter biodynamic >>certification and Organic-in-Transition to Biodynamic." These guidelines >>set high standards for certifying organic products, and cover matters >>such as building natural soil fertility; using natural methods to >>increase crop resistance to fungal, bacterial and pest attacks; raising >>livestock; and storage and processing. The guidelines prohibit use of >>chemically synthesized fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, fumigants, >>hormones, antibiotics, growth regulators or genetically engineered >>organisms >> International ClassA Goods and Servicesagricultural products and >>applications, including various types of agricultural food and fiber >>products and processed food products; DATE OF FIRST USE: 1985.07.00; DATE >>OF FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 1985.07.00 >> >> >>>4> (1 of 1) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="tarr" >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Content-Disposition: inline; filename="tarr" >>Content-Base: "http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?reg >> ser=serial&entry=75323736" >> >>=75323736"> o >> >>Thank you for your request. Here are the latest results. >> >> Serial Number: 75323736 >> >> Registration Number: 2286984 >> >> Trademark (words only): BIODYNAMIC >> >> Current Status: Registered. >> >> Date of Status: 1999-10-19 >> >> Filing Date: 1997-07-14 >> >> >> >>CURRENT OWNERS >> 1. Demeter Association, Inc. >> >> >>GOODS AND SERVICES >> agricultural products and applications, including various types of >>agricultural food and fiber products and processed food products >> >> >> >> >>PROSECUTION HISTORY >> 1999-10-19 - REGISTERED-PRINCIPAL REGISTER >> >> 1999-07-27 - PUBLISHED FOR OPPOSITION >> >> 1999-06-25 - NOTICE OF PUBLICATION >> >> 1999-04-07 - APPROVED FOR PUB - PRINCIPAL REGISTER >> >> 1999-04-05 - ASSIGNED TO EXAMINER >> >> 1999-03-10 - COMMUNICATION RECEIVED FROM APPLICANT >> >> 1999-02-08 - NON-FINAL ACTION MAILED >> >> 1998-09-03 - COMMUNICATION RECEIVED FROM APPLICANT >> >> 1998-06-22 - NON-FINAL ACTION MAILED >> >> 1998-05-08 - COMMUNICATION RECEIVED FROM APPLICANT >> >> 1998-04-13 - NON-FINAL ACTION MAILED >> >> 1998-03-18 - ASSIGNED TO EXAMINER >> >> 1998-03-18 - ASSIGNED TO EXAMINER >> >> >> http://trademarks.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 31 12:40:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11069 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:24:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06635; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:18:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06413 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:14:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.49] (r-66.49.alltel.net [166.102.66.49]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id LAA09694 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:19:29 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:25:34 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Use of the Term "Biodynamic"--Long Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2817 >Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 12:22:23 -0500 >To: Greg Willis >From: Hugh Lovel >Subject: Use of the Term "Biodynamic"--Long >Cc: >Bcc: >X-Attachments: > >To Whomever Uses the Term "Biodynamic," > >It has finally hit the fan. > >I'm forcefully reminded of my original reaction upon finding out about >biodynamics 23 years ago. I'd thought, "This is really good farming. It >should be the sort of thing that is mainstream, conventional. It shouldn't >be relegated to the fringes, labeled with some specialized name! Let the >cheaters and poisoners have to explain what THEY are about. Biodynamics is >the real agriculture." > >Well, back then I let Heinz Grotzke talk me out of it for the time being. >I could see biodynamics was something special, and I rationalized that >maybe naming it would make it more obvious to folks it was something to be >investigated. I mentioned this in the introduction to Chapter II of my >book, A BIODYNAMIC FARM, first published in 1994. Now I see the error of >my ways. Hang on. This is going to take a little explaining. > >Some e-mail list readers may remember last year when Greg Willis waxed >hyperbolic, spewing such harsh invective against several high BD >muckymucks that he ended up self-propelled away from the list. He offended >a whole bunch of people and employed sixth grade invective, threats of >lawsuits at the drop of a hat and such like. > >It's not the sort of thing I usually admire, but I'm not so much scared by >such things as I'm inclined to be wary. I was pretty sure that at the next >turn or the one after that I too would be a target of his peculiar posts. >I kept my eyes and ears open. It never came to that. All that did happen >was I visited Greg face to face and confronted him particularly about his >attack on Steve Moore who was at that time the president of the BDA. He >assured me he knew what he was doing, had good reasons, and I should just >wait and see. > >Well, Greg may sometimes be short on tact, patience or good taste, or >maybe he has an unusual ability to be an asshole when he feels it's >needed. I don't know. But I can say I know him personally and I like him >very much. He's one of the most knowledgeable, perceptive, intuitive, and >innovative people I know in all of agriculture. In particular I'm indebted >to him for the way he went to work on the making and using of biodynamic >horn clay. It was real genius, which is to say he proceeded with >intelligence, insight, conviction and a lot of energy. I picked up on his >horn clay. He sent me samples of several types and I put them to use along >with my field broadcaster work. It proved to be the most important new >development since Steiner's Ag Course 75 years ago. I was so impressed >with the difference it made in my biodynamic farm that I just about moved >California to get him to speak and teach at my Georgia BD conference last >September. He came and I wasn't disappointed. He was superb. > >It would be hard to find a more caring, hard working and extremely >insightful presenter of BD agriculture, though at this conference we also >had Harvey Lisle who has 42 years experience in this field and has always >been one of the most innovative and forward looking people in biodynamics. >Also there was myself (on my home turf) with my sensitivity for the unity >of spirit and matter, and the wonderfully enthusiastic Lee McWhorter of >JPI which is the backbone of BD in America, Derek Trowbridge who, as his >slides and his wines showed, is a wonderfully accomplished BD wine grower, >Jeff Poppen the Barefoot Farmer who is proof that farming is fun as well >as a religious experience, and so on. The only thing lightweight about >this conference was the amount of publicity I got out ahead of time, but >that made it a more intimate experience for the lower than usual >attendance. I'm pretty sure Greg won the respect of everyone who attended, >and I believe one or two of our list readers posted remarks to the list >after the conference that they came partly to see if he was anything like >he seemed in that series of postings--and found he was not. His insights >and demonstrations of superb finesse in stirring preps were so excellent >they should have all been on film, and as I understand it, Lee McWhorter >captured a fair bit of it on some reasonably professional video recordings >and will have these available. He's given me copies but I haven't had a >chance to view them yet. > >So that's part of the background. There's more. > >Back a few years ago there was a movement to trademark the word >"Biodynamic" and its twin, "Bio-Dynamic." Chuck Beedy, the BDA Director, >and Jean Yeager, who is the present President of the BDA, explained this >to myself and other attendees at a Kimberton CSA Conference as an effort >to protect the term from use by just anyone who might decide to market >their latest coal tar perfume or synthetic rubber sneakers as biodynamic. >After all there was a real history and tradition behind this term and the >idea was the word maybe should be protected from cheap knock offs, as has, >of course, occurred with "organic" and "natural." > >Down at the gut level I didn't like this idea and was reminded of my >original feeling that at some point we needed to make this method of >agriculture so mainstream, so ubiquitous that the use of the term >"biodynamic" became passe and the bad farmers ended up with the extra >nomenclature. I suppose I had a queasy premonition that this was yet >another initiative that would keep BD out on the far fringes. However, I'm >not usually a vociferous opponent of things that I can't pick out the flaw >in and only feel uneasy about. I usually will rationalize and go along >with things though I know enough to keep my eyes open. > >When I grew up in the newspaper business I always pasted up ads and copy >by eye rather than using t-square, right-triangle and centering rule. When >I cut my driveway with a wheelbarrow and shovel, I used no transit, string >lines, stakes or tape measures. I gauge how much of this and that to add >to the sauce by eye with no cups or measuring spoons. If I had a dozer, no >doubt I'd operate it by the seat of my pants. I can be pretty perceptive, >but I'm prone to dispense with using the finest tools available for exact >knowledge unless I believe it really matters--like when adjusting the >cylinder clearances of an web-offset Hantcho magazine press for the >thickness of the ink on glossy stock or when using magnification and a >level to read the meniscus in a burette while titrating an acid to four >decimal places plus or minus three ten-thousandths. So I didn't ask >someone with real expertise in trademark law what all the implications >were of trademarking a term like "biodynamic." > >But Greg did. I have to hand it to him. > >One of the things he found out was if the BDA ever comes after anyone for >using its trademark it can't afford to stop. It's like sliding straight >down a deep mineshaft on a quarter inch greased cable, there's no >stopping. It's the road to rigid orthodoxy. I grant that someone like >Disney Studios can afford to protect their trademarks on Mickey Mouse and >Donald Duck in court. And the Demeter Association could probably afford to >protect a trademark like "Demeter Certified Biodynamic" because it already >is something so narrow it's defensible. But that is not what has been >done, and the spectre of selective and preferential prosecution ensures >that they cannot let anyone slide in using the term "biodynamic" without >using the little circle symbol and subscribing to the narrowest set of >requirements in qualifying for use of the term. > >It's one hell of a can of worms. Ultimately they'll have to make all >authors and publishers conform, the members of this list, and anyone not >certified "biodynamic" by the Demeter Association. I more or less believed >back when it first was explained to me that pretty nearly all if not all >the officers of the BDA or the Demeter Association didn't intend to go >after anyone farming with some understanding--whatever it might be--of >Steiner's insights into agriculture. Sure, I'm uneasy with anything that >paves the path to orthodoxy because orthodoxy is stagnation and ultimately >death. It darned sure doesn't have any place in biodynamic agriculture, >and is the ripest of oxymorons. > >You can read the details in the documents Greg has supplied following my >post. It's in the usual mind-numbing legalese, which I only read when I >have to--but I read this. One has to have some talent at bringing it to >life, which my long post is an effort to help with. Greg brought the whole >thing to a head by applying for a trademark on the term "BD Preps" since >that's another generic term of long history just as is "biodynamic." I >happen to know that Greg has the highest admiration and praise for Hugh >Courtney who after Josephine Porter's death took on a long and arduous job >bringing JPI into being to ensure the BD preps would be available to >anyone for the good of the earth, even the most benighted souls with the >blackest hearts in the most stygian darkness at the deepest of black holes. > >It is masterful how Greg has brought this to such a crisis. On behalf of >JPI, The BDA and Demeter, Aleen Rothschild-Seidel, Attorney at Law, >Washington, DC has petitioned the US Patent and Trademark Office with a >request for extension of time to oppose the Agri-Synthesis, Inc. >application for a trademark on the term BD Preps--once on November 26, >1999 and again on December 28, 1999. It is the December 28th request that >really tears it. In the second paragraph the silo opens up and the ICBM >appears. The Demeter Association certifies Biodynamic farms and processors >and owns the certification mark BIODYNAMIC, Registration No. 2,286,984 and >they are objecting to Agri-Synthesis. Inc.'s application to trademark the >term BD Preps. In other words, they got their trademark but they can't >allow Greg to get any ammo to fight back with when they get around to >lowering the boom on his use of the term biodynamic. > >I leave it to the reader to draw their own conclusions. I highly recommend >that as I believe folks will think of things I haven't. So far as I can >see it is now essential to living in good faith for the Demeter >Association to place their trademark of the term Biodynamic in the public >domain, thus saving the future of biodynamics from orthodoxy. If they want >to trademark anything they might apply for trademark on something suitably >specific like "Demeter Certified Biodynamic." > >In fervent sincerity, > >Hugh Lovel >Author of A BIODYNAMIC FARM, published by ACRES, U.S.A. >Union Agricultural Institute >8475 Dockery Road >Blairsville, Georgia 30512 > > > > > >Greg's post: > >>So. Everyone out there in biodynamic-land thinks that each of us has >>the right to use the word "biodynamic" as it relates to any product or >>produce we make and/or sell - no strings attached. Well, think again >>folks. Read it and weep (attachments). Two years ago I tried and tried >>to get BD people to realize what demeter and the bda were up to. >>Unfortunately what I predicted has now come true. They've notified me, >>through their attorney, of their intent to file a lawsuit against us >>unless we (Agri-Synthesis, Inc,) withdraw our application for a >>trademark on the words "BD PREPS" with the Patent and Trademark Office. >> >>In my humble opinion, guess who's next? You are. Read on. It's not >>just about "BD PREPS". It's about you. >> >>I will put the correspondence we received from their attorney, Aleen >>Rothschild-Seidel, up on our website at http://www.agsyn.com as soon as >>I can. She says she represents demeter, JPI and the bda against >>Agri-Synthesis, Inc. and me personally. It says in part: >> >> "The Demeter association certifies Biodynamic farms and processors and >>is the owner of the certification mark BIODYNAMIC, Registration >>No.2,286,984." >>... >> "The Demeter Association is opposing the registration of the mark [BD >>PREPS] on behalf of the association and also on behalf of its certified >>Biodynamic farms and processors." >>... >> "Consumers interested in Biodynamic farming and gardening associate the >>term BD PREPS with the high-quality goods produced by the JPI. If >>Agri-Synthesis[sic] uses this phrase for its products, there is a high >>likihood that the public will be confused as to the source of the >>goods. It is unfair competition as well as an infringement of JPI's >>common law trademark rights for Agri-Synthesis[sic] to 'pass off' its >>products as those of JPI or to capitalize on the good will created by >>JPI over the years. It would furthermore tarnish the reputation of JPI >>if the Agri-Synthesis[sic] goods were confused with JPI's." >> "We request that Agri-Synthesis [sic] immediately cease and disist >>using the mark BD PREPS on its products and that it withdraw its >>application for aregistration of the mark in order to avoid potentially >>costly litigation." >> >>Although we believe that we would win a legal battle over the use of "BD >>PREPS", Agri-Synthesis, Inc. will notify the complainant's attorney that >>we are withdrawing our application for use of the phrase "BD PREPS" and >>in it's stead will use another phrase that is not objectionable. >>Moreover, neither I nor Agri-Synthesis, Inc. wants to see the current >>rift in the biodynamic farming and gardening community torn asunder >>further by this kind of litigation which would serve no positive purpose >>in the long run. >> >>(JPI has never attempted to register "BD PREPS" as a trademark. Nor has >>demeter or the bda attempted to register "BD PREPS". Further musings: >>even though demeter, JPI and the bda are separate non-profit >>corporations, there are board members who have a seat on two different >>boards e.g. anne mendenhall who sits on both demeter and the bda. I >>wonder if ms. mendehall votes the bda member's dues over to support >>demeter, or does she abstain. If she does, in my opinion, it's sort of >>lining one's own pocket, in a manner of speaking. There is also a >>question of whether or not demeter can maintian its status as a 501(c)3 >>nonprofit if they own a trademark for which they charge for the usage. >>On the other hand, if they don't charge, would it be a restraint of >>trade if they limit the usage of "BIODYNAMIC" exclusively to those whom >>they certify? Hmmm. But I digress. Interesting questions, though.) >> >>We will, of course, make a formal objection with the U.S. Patent and >>Trademark Office on the registration of the word "BIODYNAMIC" which we >>consider generic owing to the fact that it has been in use in this >>country since at least 1938. And wwe encourage everyone to contact the >>PTO and do the same. But this is not enough. >> >>Agri-Synthesis, Inc. has already spent over $5,000.00 in legal fees >>trying to head off this disaster for you and all of us in the field of >>biodynamic agriculture, and to make it possible to expand biodynamics in >>the United States and the world, which in my opinion as you know, >>demeter and the bda have woefully failed to do. What is at stake here >>is not only your future as a biodynamic farmer selling your produce as >>"biodynamic" but of all biodynamic gardners, farmers and practitioners >>in the United States. This is, in my opinion, the battle for the future >>of biodynamic agriculture in the United States. >> >>Although we are confident that we will convince the PTO to deny the >>registration of "BIODYNAMIC" by demeter, Agri-Synthesis, Inc. cannot >>carry this burden alone. We need your help. Demeter/bda/JPI must be >>made to understand that there is widespread opposition to their >>co-opting the commonly accepted, used and understood term "BIODYNAMIC" >>and that their registration is a blatent and cynical attempt to control >>your business and mine. The word "BIODYNAMIC" has been published and in >>use in this country since at least 1938 and is commonly understood to >>describe a generally understood practice of farming. That fact that >>demeter would even consider trying to legally control this word by >>registering the WORD!!! as a trademark, in an extremely broadly worded >>definition (see the attachment) that encompasses virtually everything >>grown biodynamically in the United States, is, in my opinion, >>reprehensible, irresponsible and short-sighted and will cause the >>existing schism in the biodynamic community to go deeper and wider than >>ever before. The consequences for humanity are alarming, at the very >>least. >> >>So we plead with you to help resolve this problem. We know that you and >>all of the BD practitioners understand that if demeter/bda/JPI go after >>me and are successful, you're next. It's as the Presbyterian minister >>said of Hitler in Nazi Germany. To paraphrase, "When they came for the >>Jews, I didn't object because I was not Jewish; when they came for the >>trade unionists, the homosexuals and the Gypsys, I did nothing because I >>was not one of them. When they came after the others, I did not defend >>them either. Finally, when they came for me, there was no one left to >>defend me." >> >>Do we really want this to happen to biodynamic agriculture in the United >>States? What sort of example will this set for the rest of world to >>follow? Do you now see the consequences? I predicted it was going to >>happen two years ago and now it HAS happened. What does it take to get >>everyone's attention? >> >>Please understand something very important here. This is not about our >>application for the use of the phrase "BD PREPS". This is about YOUR >>right to use the word "BIODYNAMIC" freely and without restraint as you >>and others have done in this country for over 60 years. >> >>Demeter/bda/JPI cannot selectively enforce their trademark rights. They >>cannot sue me but not YOU because that allows me to sue them for >>selective enforcement, restraint of trade, malicious prosecution and so >>on. They have to sue EVERYBODY or they lose their right to sue >>ANYBODY. It never ends. The ULTIMATE Pandora's Box which will, in my >>humble opinion, ultimately destroy the biodynamic agriculture movement >>in this country, not to mention, in my opinion, backfire on demeter, th >>bda AND JPI. >> >>In my humble opinion, as I have stated repeatedly over the past two >>years, for biodynamic agriculture, this legal manuvering and abuse of >>the trademark process by demeter/bda to gain by whatever means, ethical >>or unethical, absolute control over biodynamic agriculture in this >>county, with the attendant denial of our right to use the word >>'biodynamic" with the sale of our products, without the prior approval >>of the Demeter Association, Inc. (for which I would assume we and you >>would pay cash money) is the single most destructive act, and most >>self-destructive act, in the history biodynamic agriculture in the >>United States and must be put to stop now. >> >>Greg Willis >>President >>Agri-Synthesis, Inc. >> >>Content-Type: text/html; name="ifetch4" >>Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ifetch4" >>Content-Base: "http://trademarks.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/if >> etch4?ENG+ALL+3+948440+0+0+2681+F+1 >> +1+1+NO%2f2286984" >> >> > >> >> >>>://trademarks.uspto.gov/access/search-mark.html>>ess/search-bool.html>>/trademarks.uspto.gov/access/search-num.html>>p://www.uspto.gov/go/ptdl/> >> >> >> >>>4> (1 of 1) >> >>Word MarkBIODYNAMIC Pseudo MarkBIO-DYNAMIC Owner Name(REGISTRANT) >>Demeter Association, Inc. Owner AddressBritt Road Aurora NEW YORK 13026 >>CORPORATION MASSACHUSETTS Attorney of RecordALEEN ROTHSCHILD-SEIDEL >>Serial Number75-323736 Registration Number2286984 Filing Date07/14/1997 >>Registration Date10/19/1999 Mark Drawing Code(1) TYPED DRAWING >>RegisterPRINCIPAL Other Registration Info.1999266 Published for >>Opposition07/27/1999 Type of MarkCERTIFICATION MARK Other DataThe >>certification mark as used by authorized persons certifies that the >>organic agricultural products or applications have been grown and >>processed in accordance with guidelines set out in the attached >>"guidelines and standards for the grower for demeter biodynamic >>certification and Organic-in-Transition to Biodynamic." These guidelines >>set high standards for certifying organic products, and cover matters >>such as building natural soil fertility; using natural methods to >>increase crop resistance to fungal, bacterial and pest attacks; raising >>livestock; and storage and processing. The guidelines prohibit use of >>chemically synthesized fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, fumigants, >>hormones, antibiotics, growth regulators or genetically engineered >>organisms >> International ClassA Goods and Servicesagricultural products and >>applications, including various types of agricultural food and fiber >>products and processed food products; DATE OF FIRST USE: 1985.07.00; DATE >>OF FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 1985.07.00 >> >> >>>4> (1 of 1) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="tarr" >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Content-Disposition: inline; filename="tarr" >>Content-Base: "http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?reg >> ser=serial&entry=75323736" >> >>=75323736"> o >> >>Thank you for your request. Here are the latest results. >> >> Serial Number: 75323736 >> >> Registration Number: 2286984 >> >> Trademark (words only): BIODYNAMIC >> >> Current Status: Registered. >> >> Date of Status: 1999-10-19 >> >> Filing Date: 1997-07-14 >> >> >> >>CURRENT OWNERS >> 1. Demeter Association, Inc. >> >> >>GOODS AND SERVICES >> agricultural products and applications, including various types of >>agricultural food and fiber products and processed food products >> >> >> >> >>PROSECUTION HISTORY >> 1999-10-19 - REGISTERED-PRINCIPAL REGISTER >> >> 1999-07-27 - PUBLISHED FOR OPPOSITION >> >> 1999-06-25 - NOTICE OF PUBLICATION >> >> 1999-04-07 - APPROVED FOR PUB - PRINCIPAL REGISTER >> >> 1999-04-05 - ASSIGNED TO EXAMINER >> >> 1999-03-10 - COMMUNICATION RECEIVED FROM APPLICANT >> >> 1999-02-08 - NON-FINAL ACTION MAILED >> >> 1998-09-03 - COMMUNICATION RECEIVED FROM APPLICANT >> >> 1998-06-22 - NON-FINAL ACTION MAILED >> >> 1998-05-08 - COMMUNICATION RECEIVED FROM APPLICANT >> >> 1998-04-13 - NON-FINAL ACTION MAILED >> >> 1998-03-18 - ASSIGNED TO EXAMINER >> >> 1998-03-18 - ASSIGNED TO EXAMINER >> >> >> http://trademarks.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 31 15:10:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03233 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:10:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14070; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:04:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11423 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:11:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.238] (pm3mbr5-166-238.intrepid.net [209.190.166.238]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA15638 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:15:49 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:18:55 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Use of the Term "Biodynamic"--Long Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2818 When John Jeavons could feel competition moving in under the energy he had created with his biointensive books and teachings, he let 'biointensive' lie and claimed his orthodoxy with the rather awkward term 'Grow Biointensive.' That's what I'd hope for from the BD powers that be: terms like 'Demeter Certified Biodynamic' to refer to their conception of what 'biodynamic' means. Ironically, the word 'biodynamic' is used extensively in the health industry to refer to concepts not remotely related to Steiner's insights. -Allan Balliett -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 31 15:10:49 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03241 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:10:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14192; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:05:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13281 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:48:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d141.infoserve.net [199.175.157.141]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA22202 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:56:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000601bf53c9$66576a40$8d9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF / Fw: GEN12-31 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:58:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2819 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Friday, December 31, 1999 11:49 AM Subject: GEN12-31 >You may not hear anything more from me for a week >Have a happy new year > >Richard > >...... > >CANADIAN FOOD PRODUCERS IN DISARRAY >December 27, 1999 >National Post >B1 > John Greenwood > Financial Post > The battle over genetically modified food has, according to this story, >crossed the Atlantic. > Any doubt about that was put to rest last week after Tesco Stores Ltd., >Britain's largest supermarket chain, warned suppliers of meat and dairy >products, including, the story says, some Canadian firms, not to use >genetically modified grain in their animal feed. While that hardly amounts >to a consumer revolt against "frankenfood," it is a shot across the bows >for Canadian food producers. > Alarmingly, the industry appears, the story says, to have been taken by >surprise and is in disarray as to how to handle the issue. > >..... >GM CROP RESEARCH >December 28, 1999 >The Times (UK) >http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/tim/1999/12/28/timnwscon01001.html?18 9 548 >8 >Craig Sams, (President), Whole Earth Ltd,, writes that Professor Beringer >(report, December 23) says that opponents of GM food are consigning >billions to hunger and starvation and calls for more government funding for >GM crop research. The main cause of starvation in the world is poverty. >Concentrating power in the hands of agrichemical and seed companies will >not, says Sams, alleviate this problem. >There is too much food in the world, more than enough to feed everyone, >even allowing for increasing levels of consumption of land-hungry foods >such as meat and dairy products. The reality of how we dispose of food >surpluses is unsettling for those who are truly concerned about hunger. >........ > >Developments re Shiv Chopra > >Dr. Shiv Chopra is a scientific evaluator working in the Bureau of >Veterinary Drugs at Health Canada. He is one of the main scientists in >Canada who brought to the attention of the press and the public the >potential hazards of genetically engineered bovine growth hormone and other >drugs of questionable safety. Dr. Chopra and the other scientists testified >before the Canadian Senate Agriculture Committee that were being pressured >to approve BGH and these other drugs despite serious safety concerns. > >Several months after Dr. Chopra's testimony before the Agriculture >Committee, he was suspended for five days without pay from Health Canada. >The Senate Standing Committee on Privileges is currently investigating >whether Dr. Chopra's suspension was a result of his earlier testimony >before the Senate, and whether this constitutes a contempt of Parliament by >Health Canada since witnesses before parliamentary committees by law are >entitled to freedom of speech and protection from outside interference and >retaliation for their testimonies. > >Several other scientists have been asked to report on whether they received >any threats or retaliatory actions by Health Canada or whether they were >witness to any such actions against Dr. Chopra. > >...... > >First S.African retailer bans GM foods > >S.Africa's Woolworths bans GM foods CAPE TOWN, Dec 21 (Reuters) [shortened] >- South African retail chain Woolworths said on Tuesday it had decided to >remove all known genetically modified (GM) foods from its shelves until >they were proven safe. The decision, taken after a meeting between company >management and members of the South African Federation Against Genetic >Engineering (SAFEAGE), makes Woolworths the first South African retailer to >take that stance. "The current situation with regard to GE (genetically >engineered) food in South Africa is unsatisfactory," Woolworths said in a >statement. "Woolworths have stated >their intention to remove genetically engineered food from their shelves." >...... > >Portugal green groups urge wider gene maize ban > > >December 30, 1999 > > >LISBON, Dec 29 (Reuters) via NewsEdge Corporation - > >Portuguese environmental groups on Wednesday hailed a government move to >halt production of two genetically modified (GM) strains of maize and >called for 15 other strains on trial to be denied official approval. > >The agriculture ministry on Tuesday suspended approval of the Elgina and >Compa Cb strains due to concern over the possible long-term impact of >extensive cultivation. > >"This is a courageous measure," a joint statement by eight environmental >groups said. "This measure equally implies the suspension of 15 pending new >authorisations of GMO maize. > >"Organic agriculture will also be spared the inevitable contamination >entailed by cross-pollination with GMO maize," the statement added. > >.... > >Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 12:55:15 -0500 >From: "BRETT CHASE, BLOOMBERG/ NEWSROOM:" >Whole Foods, Wild Oats Chains to Ban Gene-Altered Ingredients >12/30/99 12:40 (New York) > >Austin, Texas, Dec. 30 (Bloomberg) -- Whole Foods Market Inc. and Wild Oats >Markets Inc., the two largest natural-food store chains in the U.S., plan >to ban genetically modified ingredients from their hundreds of >private-label products. > >The two grocers would be the largest U.S. food retailers to ban genetically >modified ingredients. The Austin-based Whole Foods operates 103 stores in >22 states and Washington, D.C., and has more than 600 products carrying its >brand name. Boulder, Colorado-based Wild Oats operates 110 stores in 22 >states and British Columbia. It has about 700 products under its own brand. > >The move follows similar bans by major European supermarket chains, >reacting to consumer concerns over the foods' safety. Though the U.S. Food >and Drug Administration has deemed genetically modified foods to be safe >and essentially no different than conventionally grown foods, the grocers' >decision could influence public opinion, an analyst said. > >``You're seeing more and more examples of this,'' said Frank Mitsch, an >analyst with Deutsche Banc Alex Brown who rates DuPont a ``market >perform.'' ``I would not be surprised to see labeling at some point.'' > >Concerns about Monsanto's agriculture business have contributed to a 25 >percent decline in the price of its shares this year. > >>--Brett Chase in Chicago (312) 692-3728 /mfr/tab > >__________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign >for Mandatory labelling and long-term >testing of genetically engineered food >500 Wilbrod Street, Ottawa, ON K1N 6N2 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net >http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >subcription to genetic engineering news of 12 months >is $35 (payable to BanGEF at above address) >__________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 31 15:12:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03258 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:12:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14320; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:06:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13288 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.49] (r-66.48.alltel.net [166.102.66.48]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id NAA06116 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:52:43 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:58:52 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Corrected Reposting: BD Trademark Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2820 Dear Allan and BD Now, Urgent Flash! What I sent for posting was NOT the corrected version I had intended to send. Please everyone, throw that earlier versions in the trash and copy this one. In fact, please forward this one to others and other lists. This is the most important news that has come down in the history of American biodynamics. We've finally got the chance to open up the public perception of this revolutionary method of agriculture from the closed, clannish, clubbish, esoteric doctrineness of the past. As long as Greg succeeds in forcing Demeter and the BDA to put their trademark of the term biodynamic in the public domain--where it belongs!--biodynamics can become mainstream. If not, we will ultimately be in trouble on this list and elsewhere, as I clarify below: Read on. Hugh Lovel To Whomever Uses the Term "Biodynamic," It has really hit the fan. I'm forcefully reminded of my original reaction upon finding out about biodynamics 23 years ago. I'd thought, "This is really good farming. It should be the sort of thing that is mainstream, conventional. It shouldn't be relegated to the fringes, labeled with some specialized name! Let the cheaters and poisoners have to explain what THEY are about. Biodynamics is the real agriculture." Back then I let Heinz Grotzke, who was president of the Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association (BDA), talk me out of using biodynamic as a purely generic term. Heinz is a real gem of a fellow who corresponded with me in prison and freely sent me BD literature to read. He argued that in addition to needing the parenting of the BDA, BD agriculture had to identify itself so folks would know it was not more of the same old ruinous conventional stuff. I could see biodynamics was something special, and I rationalized that invoking the name biodynamic at most turns made it more obvious it is something to be investigated. I mentioned this debate between me, Heinz and myself in the introduction to Chapter II of my book, A BIODYNAMIC FARM, published by ACRES, U.S.A. in 1994, to be reissued in January 2000. In many ways I agree with Heinz and biodynamically grown is on all my signs when I retail. It invites comment and educates consumers and farmers in nearby stalls. >At this point, however, the paralytic wrongness of hitching biodynamics to >a single organization is revealed. Biodynamic has to be a generic term >that's increasingly all-embracing without losing its unique goodness. If >it is, sooner or later a majority will see biodynamic as real agriculture >and the word biodynamic will be dropped for the sake of brevity. On the >borders of my thought I knew all along that Heinz was somehow in error, >but I couldn't get it in clear focus. Thanks to Greg Willis, however, it >lit up like Hiroshima at ground zero. > >This is going to take a little more explanation, so hang in there. > >Some BDnow readers may remember last year when Greg Willis waxed >hyperbolic, flaming such harsh invective against several high BD >muckymucks that he ended up self-propelled away from the list. He offended >a whole bunch of people, employing sixth grade insults, threats of >lawsuits at the drop of a hat and such like. It's not the sort of thing I usually admire, but I'm not so much scared by such things as I'm inclined to be wary. I was pretty sure that at the next turn or the one after that I too would be a target of his peculiar posts. I kept my eyes and ears open. It never came to that. All that happened was I wrote to Greg privately and visited him face to face, confronting him particularly about his attack on Steve Moore who was at that time the president of the BDA. His response was I needed to trust him. He had good reasons. He knew what he was doing, and I should just wait and see. Well, Greg may sometimes be short on tact, patience or good taste, or maybe he has an unusual ability to be an asshole when necessary. I don't know. But I can say, knowing him first hand, I like him very much. He's one of the most knowledgeable, perceptive, intuitive, and innovative people I know in all of agriculture. In particular I'm indebted to him for the way he went to work making and using biodynamic horn clay, the mising BD Prep. It was real genius, which is to say he proceeded with intelligence, insight, conviction and a lot of energy. Early on I picked up on his horn clay prep. He sent me samples of several types and I put them to use along with my field broadcaster work. It proved to be the most important new development since Steiner's Ag Course 75 years ago. I was so impressed with the difference it made in my biodynamic farm that I just about moved California to get him to speak and teach at my Georgia Biodynamic Conference last September. He came and I wasn't disappointed. He was superb. It would be hard to find a more caring, hard working and extremely insightful presenter of BD agriculture, though at this conference we also had Harvey Lisle who has 42 years experience in this field and still is one of the most innovative and forward looking people in American biodynamics. Also there was myself (on my home turf) with my sense for the unity of spirit and matter, the wonderfully enthusiastic Lee McWhorter of JPI which is the backbone of BD in America, Derek Trowbridge who, as his slides and his wines showed, is a very accomplished BD wine grower, Jeff Poppen the Barefoot Farmer who is living proof that farming is fun as well as a religious experience, and so on. The only thing lightweight about this conference was the amount of publicity I got out ahead of time, but that made it a more intimate experience for the lower than usual attendance. I'm pretty sure Greg won the respect of everyone who attended, and I believe one or two BDnow readers posted remarks to the list after the conference that they came partly to see if Greg was anything like he seemed in that series of postings--and found he was not. His insights and demonstrations of superb finesse in stirring preps were so excellent they should have all been on film, and as I understand it, Lee McWhorter captured a fair bit of it on some reasonably professional video recordings and will have these available. He's given me copies but I haven't had a chance to view them yet. So that's part of the background. There's more. Back a few years ago there was a movement by the BDA to trademark the word "Biodynamic" and its alias, "Bio-Dynamic." Chuck Beedy, the BDA Director, and Jean Yeager, who is the present President of the BDA, explained this to myself and other attendees at a Kimberton CSA Conference as an effort to protect the term from use by just anyone who might decide to market their latest coal tar perfume or synthetic rubber sneakers as biodynamic. After all there was a real history and tradition behind this term and the idea was the word maybe should be protected from cheap knock offs, as has, of course, occurred with "organic" and "natural." Down at the gut level I didn't like this idea and was reminded of my original feeling that at some point we needed to make this method of agriculture so mainstream, so ubiquitous that use of the term "biodynamic" became passe and the bad farmers ended up with the extra nomenclature. I suppose I had a queasy premonition that this was yet another initiative that would keep BD out on the far fringes. However, I'm not usually a vociferous opponent of things that I can't pick out the flaw in and only feel uneasy about. I usually rationalize and go along with things though I know enough to keep my eyes open. When I grew up in the newspaper business I always pasted up ads and copy by eye rather than using t-square, right-triangle and centering rule. When I spent four solid weeks cutting my driveway with a wheelbarrow and shovel, I used no transit, string lines, stakes or tape measures. And I gauge how much of this or that to add to the sauce by eye with no cups or measuring spoons. If I had a dozer, no doubt I'd operate it by the seat of my pants. I can be pretty perceptive, but I'm prone to dispense with using the finest tools available for exact knowledge unless I believe it really matters--like when adjusting the cylinder clearances of a web-offset Hantcho magazine press for the perfect thickness of ink on glossy stock or when using magnification and a level to read the meniscus in a burette while titrating an acid to four decimal places plus or minus three ten-thousandths. In this case I didn't ask someone with real expertise in trademark law what all the implications were of trademarking a term like "biodynamic." But Greg did. I have to hand it to him. One of the things he found out was if the BDA ever comes after anyone for using its trademark it can't afford to stop or it's discriminatory prosecution. It's like sliding straight down a deep mineshaft on a quarter inch greased cable. There's no stopping. It's the road to rigid orthodoxy. I grant that someone like Disney Studios can afford to protect their trademarks on Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck in court. And the Demeter Association could probably afford to protect a trademark like "Demeter Certified Biodynamic" because it already is so narrow it's defensible. But that was not done, and the spectre of selective, preferential prosecution ensures they cannot let anyone slide and use the term biodynamic without the little circle symbol and a paid up subscription to Demeter's qualifications. It's one hell of a can of worms. Ultimately they'll have to make all authors and publishers conform, the members of this list, and anyone not certified biodynamic by Demeter. I more or less believed back when it first was explained to me that pretty nearly all if not all the officers of the BDA or Demeter didn't intend to go after anyone farming with some understanding--whatever it might be--of Steiner's insights into agriculture. But admittedly I'm uneasy with anything that paves the path to enforced orthodoxy because that means stagnation and ultimately death. It certainly doesn't have any place in biodynamic agriculture, as orthodox biodynamic is the ripest of oxymorons. You can read the details in Greg's documents following my post. It's in the usual mind-numbing legalese, which I only read when I have to--but I read this. One has to have some talent at bringing it to life, which my long post is an effort to help with. Greg brought the whole thing to a head by applying for a trademark on the term BD Preps since that's another generic term of long history just as is biodynamic. I happen to know that Greg has the highest admiration and praise for Hugh Courtney who after Josephine Porter's death took on a long and arduous job bringing JPI into being to ensure the BD preps would be available to anyone for the good of the earth, even the most benighted souls with the blackest hearts in the most stygian darkness at the deepest of black holes. But the point is ensuring that biodynamics grows. It is masterful how Greg perceived the need and step by step brought things to a head. On behalf of JPI, the BDA and Demeter, Aleen Rothschild-Seidel, Attorney at Law, Washington, DC, petitioned the US Patent and Trademark Office requesting an extension of time to oppose the Agri-Synthesis, Inc. application for trademark on the term BD Preps--once on November 26, 1999 and again on December 28, 1999. It is the December 28th request that really tears it. In the second paragraph the silo opens and the ICBM appears. This paragraph starts by saying the Demeter Association certifies Biodynamic farms and processors and owns the certification mark BIODYNAMIC, Registration No. 2,286,984 and they are opposing Agri-Synthesis, Inc.'s application to trademark the term BD Preps. Shades of nuclear brinksmanship. In other words, they got their trademark and they don't want Greg to get any ammo to fight back if or rather when they lower the boom on his use of the term biodynamic. Considering the present course that seems inevitable. I leave it to readers to draw their own conclusions. I highly recommend this as I believe folks will think of many things I haven't. So far I see it as essential to living in good faith for the Demeter Association to place their trademark of the term Biodynamic in the public domain, thus protecting the future of biodynamics from orthodoxy and stagnation. And going 75 years with roughly 50 Demeter certified BD farms here in the US seems stagnant to me. If the Demeter Association wants a trademark they should apply for something suitable like "Demeter Certified Biodynamic." In fervent sincerity, Hugh Lovel Author of A BIODYNAMIC FARM, published by ACRES, U.S.A. Union Agricultural Institute 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 Greg's post: So. Everyone out there in biodynamic-land thinks that each of us has the right to use the word "biodynamic" as it relates to any product or produce we make and/or sell - no strings attached. Well, think again folks. Read it and weep (attachments). Two years ago I tried and tried to get BD people to realize what demeter and the bda were up to. Unfortunately what I predicted has now come true. They've notified me, through their attorney, of their intent to file a lawsuit against us unless we (Agri-Synthesis, Inc,) withdraw our application for a trademark on the words "BD PREPS" with the Patent and Trademark Office. In my humble opinion, guess who's next? You are. Read on. It's not just about "BD PREPS". It's about you. I will put the correspondence we received from their attorney, Aleen Rothschild-Seidel, up on our website at http://www.agsyn.com as soon as I can. She says she represents demeter, JPI and the bda against Agri-Synthesis, Inc. and me personally. It says in part: "The Demeter association certifies Biodynamic farms and processors and is the owner of the certification mark BIODYNAMIC, Registration No.2,286,984." ... "The Demeter Association is opposing the registration of the mark [BD PREPS] on behalf of the association and also on behalf of its certified Biodynamic farms and processors." ... "Consumers interested in Biodynamic farming and gardening associate the term BD PREPS with the high-quality goods produced by the JPI. If Agri-Synthesis[sic] uses this phrase for its products, there is a high likihood that the public will be confused as to the source of the goods. It is unfair competition as well as an infringement of JPI's common law trademark rights for Agri-Synthesis[sic] to 'pass off' its products as those of JPI or to capitalize on the good will created by JPI over the years. It would furthermore tarnish the reputation of JPI if the Agri-Synthesis[sic] goods were confused with JPI's." "We request that Agri-Synthesis [sic] immediately cease and disist using the mark BD PREPS on its products and that it withdraw its application for aregistration of the mark in order to avoid potentially costly litigation." We believe that we have a very strong case and that we will win the trademark rights to "BD PREPS" should we choose to pursue it. At first we were reasonably certain of this (or we would not have made application) but in the past 24 hours, new information has come to us which indicates that (a) JPI was not the first to use nor publish the phrase "BD PREPS" which eliminates their claim of originality (prior usage by others doing so) and (b) at least one and possibly several other people have been selling "BD PREPS" in the United States over the years and neither JPI, demeter nor the bda ever objected to the usage of the term, an action (or, more properly, neglect) which by definition vitiates their claim of exclusivity. This makes our case much stronger. In addition, we now have in our possession extremely damaging evidence of neglect and deception which we believe mortally wounds any potential claims and objections they might have, evidence which we will reveal through the proper venue when appropriate. Therefore, despite their demands and threats, we will most likely vigorously pursue our application as originally planned. It is neither our intent nor desire to tear the biodynamic community asunder on this issue. However, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Our intent and desire is to ferret out the truth and, when discovered, take appropriate and proper action that is for the good of all biodynamic agriculture. Whether or not "BD PREPS" should be trademarked is the exclusive prerogative of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, not the bda, not demeter, not JPI and certainly not some high-priced Washington D.C. lawyer who thinks she knows how to sling the legal bullshit in the hope that she can scare us into withdrawing our application. It is our opinion that, for whatever reason, she has her facts wrong and we can prove it. (JPI has never attempted to register "BD PREPS" as a trademark. Nor has demeter or the bda attempted to register "BD PREPS". Further musings: even though demeter, JPI and the bda are separate non-profit corporations, there are board members who have a seat on two different boards e.g. anne mendenhall who sits on both demeter and the bda. I wonder if ms. mendehall votes the bda member's dues over to support demeter, or does she abstain. If she does, in my opinion, it's sort of lining one's own pocket, in a manner of speaking. There is also a question of whether or not demeter can maintian its status as a 501(c)3 nonprofit if they own a trademark for which they charge for the usage. On the other hand, if they don't charge, would it be a restraint of trade if they limit the usage of "BIODYNAMIC" exclusively to those whom they certify? Hmmm. But I digress. Interesting questions, though.) We will, of course, make a formal objection with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office on the registration of the word "BIODYNAMIC" which we consider generic owing to the fact that it has been in use in this country since at least 1938. And wwe encourage everyone to contact the PTO and do the same. But this is not enough. Agri-Synthesis, Inc. has already spent over $5,000.00 in legal fees trying to head off this disaster for you and all of us in the field of biodynamic agriculture, and to make it possible to expand biodynamics in the United States and the world, which in my opinion as you know, demeter and the bda have woefully failed to do. What is at stake here is not only your future as a biodynamic farmer selling your produce as "biodynamic" but of all biodynamic gardners, farmers and practitioners in the United States. This is, in my opinion, the battle for the future of biodynamic agriculture in the United States. Although we are confident that we will convince the PTO to deny the registration of "BIODYNAMIC" by demeter, Agri-Synthesis, Inc. cannot carry this burden alone. We need your help. Demeter/bda/JPI must be made to understand that there is widespread opposition to their co-opting the commonly accepted, used and understood term "BIODYNAMIC" and that their registration is a blatent and cynical attempt to control your business and mine. The word "BIODYNAMIC" has been published and in use in this country since at least 1938 and is commonly understood to describe a generally understood practice of farming. That fact that demeter would even consider trying to legally control this word by registering the WORD!!! as a trademark, in an extremely broadly worded definition (see the attachment) that encompasses virtually everything grown biodynamically in the United States, is, in my opinion, reprehensible, irresponsible and short-sighted and will cause the existing schism in the biodynamic community to go deeper and wider than ever before. The consequences for humanity are alarming, at the very least. So we plead with you to help resolve this problem. We know that you and all of the BD practitioners understand that if demeter/bda/JPI go after me and are successful, you're next. It's as the Presbyterian minister said of Hitler in Nazi Germany. To paraphrase, "When they came for the Jews, I didn't object because I was not Jewish; when they came for the trade unionists, the homosexuals and the Gypsys, I did nothing because I was not one of them. When they came after the others, I did not defend them either. Finally, when they came for me, there was no one left to defend me." Do we really want this to happen to biodynamic agriculture in the United States? What sort of example will this set for the rest of world to follow? Do you now see the consequences? I predicted it was going to happen two years ago and now it HAS happened. What does it take to get everyone's attention? Please understand something very important here. This is not about our application for the use of the phrase "BD PREPS". This is about YOUR right to use the word "BIODYNAMIC" freely and without restraint as you and others have done in this country for over 60 years. Demeter/bda/JPI cannot selectively enforce their trademark rights. They cannot sue me but not YOU because that allows me to sue them for selective enforcement, restraint of trade, malicious prosecution and so on. They have to sue EVERYBODY or they lose their right to sue ANYBODY. It never ends. The ULTIMATE Pandora's Box which will, in my humble opinion, ultimately destroy the biodynamic agriculture movement in this country, not to mention, in my opinion, backfire on demeter, the bda AND JPI. In my humble opinion, as I have stated repeatedly over the past two years, for biodynamic agriculture, this legal manuvering and abuse of the trademark process by demeter/bda to gain by whatever means, ethical or unethical, absolute control over biodynamic agriculture in this county, with the attendant denial of our right to use the word 'biodynamic" with the sale of our products, without the prior approval of the Demeter Association, Inc. (for which I would assume we and you would pay cash money) is the single most destructive act, and most self-destructive act, in the history biodynamic agriculture in the United States and must be put to stop now. Greg Willis President Agri-Synthesis, Inc. Content-Type: text/html; name="ifetch4" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ifetch4" Content-Base: "http://trademarks.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/if etch4?ENG+ALL+3+948440+0+0+2681+F+1 +1+1+NO%2f2286984" (1 of 1) >> >>Word MarkBIODYNAMIC Pseudo MarkBIO-DYNAMIC Owner Name(REGISTRANT) >>Demeter Association, Inc. Owner AddressBritt Road Aurora NEW YORK 13026 >>CORPORATION MASSACHUSETTS Attorney of RecordALEEN ROTHSCHILD-SEIDEL >>Serial Number75-323736 Registration Number2286984 Filing Date07/14/1997 >>Registration Date10/19/1999 Mark Drawing Code(1) TYPED DRAWING >>RegisterPRINCIPAL Other Registration Info.1999266 Published for >>Opposition07/27/1999 Type of MarkCERTIFICATION MARK Other DataThe >>certification mark as used by authorized persons certifies that the >>organic agricultural products or applications have been grown and >>processed in accordance with guidelines set out in the attached >>"guidelines and standards for the grower for demeter biodynamic >>certification and Organic-in-Transition to Biodynamic." These guidelines >>set high standards for certifying organic products, and cover matters >>such as building natural soil fertility; using natural methods to >>increase crop resistance to fungal, bacterial and pest attacks; raising >>livestock; and storage and processing. The guidelines prohibit use of >>chemically synthesized fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, fumigants, >>hormones, antibiotics, growth regulators or genetically engineered >>organisms >> International ClassA Goods and Servicesagricultural products and >>applications, including various types of agricultural food and fiber >>products and processed food products; DATE OF FIRST USE: 1985.07.00; DATE >>OF FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 1985.07.00 (1 of 1) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="tarr" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="tarr" Content-Base: "http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?reg ser=serial&entry=75323736" =75323736"> o Thank you for your request. Here are the latest results. Serial Number: 75323736 Registration Number: 2286984 Trademark (words only): BIODYNAMIC Current Status: Registered. Date of Status: 1999-10-19 Filing Date: 1997-07-14 CURRENT OWNERS 1. Demeter Association, Inc. GOODS AND SERVICES agricultural products and applications, including various types of agricultural food and fiber products and processed food products PROSECUTION HISTORY 1999-10-19 - REGISTERED-PRINCIPAL REGISTER 1999-07-27 - PUBLISHED FOR OPPOSITION 1999-06-25 - NOTICE OF PUBLICATION 1999-04-07 - APPROVED FOR PUB - PRINCIPAL REGISTER 1999-04-05 - ASSIGNED TO EXAMINER 1999-03-10 - COMMUNICATION RECEIVED FROM APPLICANT 1999-02-08 - NON-FINAL ACTION MAILED 1998-09-03 - COMMUNICATION RECEIVED FROM APPLICANT 1998-06-22 - NON-FINAL ACTION MAILED 1998-05-08 - COMMUNICATION RECEIVED FROM APPLICANT 1998-04-13 - NON-FINAL ACTION MAILED 1998-03-18 - ASSIGNED TO EXAMINER 1998-03-18 - ASSIGNED TO EXAMINER http://trademarks.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 23:52:54 +0000 From: Greg Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allan Balliett CC: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Biodynamic trademark Allan Balliett wrote: Greg - Do you mind if I forward this information to BD Now!? -Allan -- You may put this on bdnow if you like. I would hope you do so. Allan and Hugh, I believe that Hugh has already taken care of that so please do not forward it yourself. This is very serious business and I consider this the single greatest threat to biodynamics and the advancement of the biodynamic movement in the history of BD in this country. I consider it so important that I signed on bdnow temporarily to read how people respond to this. In that regard, I received an email from envirolink that said: "Subscription requests are not automatic for this list. Your request has been forwarded to bdnow@igg.com for approval." I assume that this will not be a problem. You may be interested to know that the Kaliskos used the term "Bio-Dynamic" in their book Agriculture Of Tomorrow written in 1939. This is the oldest reference to the term I can find in my books and it certainly predates demeter's claimed first use in July, 1985. I quote from page 288 in Agriculture Of Tomorrow: "Bio-Dynamic Farming means: Farming according to the suggestions of Rudolf Steiner. We do not find the name 'Bio-Dynamic' a very good one, therefore it has not been used in this book. So many movements and remedies exist which have similar sounding names, that we have preferred to call the method quite simply by the name of its founder, Rudolf Steiner." This statement implies that the term was in use before 1939 as well which is a benchmark of some kind. It would be helpful if someone out there in BDLand would do a complete academic history of the creation and use of the term "BIODYNAMIC" so that we could present it to the Patent and Trademark Office in an effort to get this mark canceled. Perhaps Malcolm Gardner would be up to the task since he seems to be the most academically credentialed man in U.S. biodynamics today. Clearly demeter/bda took the term which was in common usage at least since 1939, a period of at about 50 years, and appropriated it for their own use and enrichment. The evidence I now have indicates that the same thing happened with the term "BD PREPS" although I seriously doubt if Hugh Courtney appropriated it with the intent of keeping it for himself or JPI exclusively. Especially since the history of the use of the term indicates that JPI never objected to its use by anyone else. I merely applied for it at the suggestion of my patent attorney to bring this "BIODYNAMIC" thing to a head. It would be a grave error if someone, on behalf of biodynamics in general, did not oppose the registration of "BIODYNAMIC" as a trademark, especially since it is so broadly written. BTW, this broad based definition is also a weakness since it is, in reality, impossible for them to defend it. With this mark in the possession of demeter, who can call what they produce and sell "BIODYNAMIC" without infringing on their trademark? In that regard, I and my company Agri-Synthesis, Inc. will oppose the registration of the mark or our own behalf, on behalf of all of all BD practitioners and on behalf of humanity which also will suffer from this blunder. It would be very helpful if a chorus of voices in opposition to it were to come from bdnow and other lists around the country. It is a sad commentary on the state of the biodynamic movement in the U.S. that so many people like you and me, and thousands of others who have worked so hard and selflessly to bring BD into reality in this country, only to see our efforts undermined by demeter/bda and suffer the loss of what many of us of hold so dear - the pride of accomplishment of bringing biodynamic agriculture or gardening to our own property, and, in my case, the farms of my clients. It may be helpful to know that my attorneys have requested copies of all the official documents concerning this matter from the PTO so that we may trace the history of their application. When I get it, I will make it available to anyone who wants a copy if they pay for the copy cost and postage. You know, with regard to the BD community, this application was done in total secrecy by demeter and the bda. The application was made on March 14, 1997 and after about two and a half years and after three denials (which is VERY unusual and indicates that the PTO examiner had serious reservations about this mark), the mark was finally Published For Opposition by the PTO on July 27, 1999. (Did demeter notify you or anyone you know of this?) It was registered as a trademark with the Principal Registrant listed as "Demeter Association, Inc." on October 10, 1999. You would think that with something as important as this is, something which has a direct impact on thousands if not millions of people, that demeter/bda would have launched a public relations blitz to garner the support of all the BD community and to assure that there would be no controversy. But their secretive activity says to me, at least, that they knew it was wrong when they did it and they knew that the only way to get the mark registered was to conduct the process in secret. As I recall, I was the only one to raise an objection last year and that was completely ignored. So now the chickens have come home to roost but it is not too late. U.S. law states that we have five years from the time the mark is registered to file an Opposition for Cancellation of the mark. That does not mean we can be complacent. Every year that goes by does more damage to biodynamics, demeter and the bda. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your point of view, we in biodynamics are interrelated and interconnected. Any thing that one person does has some effect, great or small, on everyone else. And being a relatively small community, that effect is only amplified for each of us personally. I assure you and Hugh that to an person, my clients are outraged (and "outraged" is the kindest comment I heard) at demeter's usurpation of their efforts to convert to biodynamic agriculture for the obvious (in their view) and inevitable enrichment of demeter/bda. They are not happy and will probably join in the Opposition for Cancellation of the registration of the mark. I would be pleased to add your name and anyone else's name to the Cancellation filing and I will publish the name and address of our attorney in Towson, MD handling it should you request it. In my opinion, anne mendenhall has acted in the very same way that she criticized so vehemently when the USDA tried to co-opt and redefine the term "ORGANIC". In my humble opinion, no amount of explaining or rationalizing by mendenhall, in the official capacity as president of demeter association, inc., can justify what they have done and even more importantly, the way she and demeter/bda did it. The only action that demeter/bda can take now that would save face, save their reputation (which I suspect is already permanently damaged), save the reputation of the bda (which I suspect is also permanently damaged), show the world that we in the biodynamic community really ascribe to the high-minded principles that Rudolf Steiner espoused and avoid a very public and very costly legal battle is to assign their mark "BIODYNAMIC" to the Public Domain. This would eliminate the controversy, save them and bda a ton of money and assuage their fears that Monsanto or Dupont might go after the mark before they got it. This would be a selfless and charitable act on their part but in light of the way they have conducted this business so far, I doubt that they are ready to take it at this time. Perhaps pressure from the BD community at large will encourage them to take this step for the benefit of all. Shame on anne mendenhall, shame on demeter, shame on the bda and shame on the board members of each organization for supporting this internecine debacle. They obviously never considered the consequences. Greg Willis Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 23:52:54 +0000 From: Greg Willis MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allan Balliett CC: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Biodynamic trademark From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Dec 31 18:09:13 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04210 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 18:09:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21519; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 18:03:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com [207.46.181.18]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA20712 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:43:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 63.23.33.57 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:47:11 -0800 Message-ID: <001a01bf53e2$0305f6a0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: Corrected Reposting: BD Trademark Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:54:35 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2821 Interesting issues and commentary. I will need to think carefully about this one. Some initial thoughts: a comment and a question: Comment: If this is the we are in a sad state of affairs. The real story about biodynamics is not about who names or trademarks, but that this is a revolutionary, spiritual practice. What have we come to if haggling about names is important. Sounds to me like we've lost the meaning here folks, not disimilar to the way in which we have forgotten the real issue around Christmas. If no one should trademark names, like biodynamic, etc. (and maybe they shouldnt - good point) why is Greg wanting to trademark himself? Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 1 04:39:38 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA07410 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 04:39:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA10086; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 04:33:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from earth.ncn.net (root@ncn.net [199.120.120.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA09918 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 04:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([206.72.53.46]) by earth.ncn.net (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA25272 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 03:24:39 -0600 Message-ID: <000801bf543b$36f9afc0$2e3548ce@default> From: "Mike or Mona Majorowicz" To: "BDNOW!" Subject: Re: Use of the Term "Biodynamic"--Long Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 03:32:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2822 Hugh- I'm assuming that you don't support the idea of Greg Willis trademarking "BD Preps". After all, that is no better than Demeter owning "Biodynamic". Ok, so what happens if the BDA does not stop everyone who uses the term "Biodynamic" without their permission? Do they loose their trademark rights? At what level of usage of the name "Biodynamic" does it take qualify as something that the BDA must prosecute in order to avoid these concequences? ie: Someone at a farmer's market claiming to sell BD food that isn't Demeter certified? Mike Majorowicz From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 1 05:15:46 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA07552 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 05:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA10673; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 05:10:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from earth.ncn.net (root@ncn.net [199.120.120.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA10619 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 05:05:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([206.72.53.44]) by earth.ncn.net (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA26393 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 04:01:15 -0600 Message-ID: <001d01bf5440$542c6920$2e3548ce@default> From: "Mike or Mona Majorowicz" To: Subject: Re: Corrected Reposting: BD Trademark Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 04:06:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2823 Please explain exactly what happens when a trademark is put in the public domain. Does that essentially void the trademark? Mike Majorowicz From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 1 07:46:39 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA08052 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 07:46:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA12963; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 07:40:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA12929 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 07:39:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.222] (pm3mbr5-166-222.intrepid.net [209.190.166.222]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA27094 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 07:43:20 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 07:40:53 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: [Fwd: Biodynamic Flash (LONG)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2824 >Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:22:07 +0000 >From: Greg Willis >To: Intergalactic Garage >Subject: [Fwd: Biodynamic Flash (LONG)] > >Have you seen this yet? > >Received: by ns1 (mbox srcosmos) > (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Fri Dec 31 14:11:19 1999) >X-From_: uai@alltel.net Fri Dec 31 13:32:06 1999 >Return-Path: >Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) > by ns1.interx.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA03222 > for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:32:03 -0800 >Received: from [166.102.66.49] (r-66.4.alltel.net [166.102.66.4]) > by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with >ESMTP id PAA28652; > Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:14:43 -0600 (CST) >Message-Id: >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:20:52 -0500 >To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, srcosmos@interx.net, info@acresusa.com >From: Hugh Lovel >Subject: Biodynamic Flash (LONG) >X-SpamBouncer: 1.00h (8/05/98) >X-SBClass: OK >X-Sorted: Default > >Dear Sanet Readers, ACRES readers, ATTRA readers, Any Others, > >Please publish or forward this one to others and other lists. This is the >most important news that has come down in the history of American >biodynamics. We've finally got the chance to open up the public perception >of this revolutionary method of agriculture from the closed, clannish, >clubbish, esoteric doctrineness of the past. As long as Greg succeeds in >forcing Demeter and the BDA to put their trademark of the term biodynamic >in the public domain--where it belongs!--biodynamics can become mainstream. >If not, we will ultimately be in trouble on this list and elsewhere, as I >clarify below: > >Please read on, >Hugh Lovel > > > > >To Whomever Uses the Term "Biodynamic," > >It has really hit the fan. > >I'm forcefully reminded of my original reaction upon finding out about >biodynamics 23 years ago. I'd thought, "This is really good farming. It >should be the sort of thing that is mainstream, conventional. It shouldn't >be relegated to the fringes, labeled with some specialized name! Let the >cheaters and poisoners have to explain what THEY are about. Biodynamics is >the real agriculture." > >Back then I let Heinz Grotzke, who was president of the Biodynamic Farming >and Gardening Association (BDA), talk me out of using biodynamic as a >purely generic term. Heinz is a real gem of a fellow who corresponded with >me in prison and freely sent me biodynamic literature to read. He argued >that in addition to needing the parenting of the BDA, biodynamic >agriculture had to identify itself so folks would know it was not more of >the same old ruinous conventional stuff. > >I could see biodynamics was something special, and I rationalized that >invoking the name biodynamic at most turns made it more obvious it is >something to be investigated. I mentioned this debate between me, Heinz and >myself in the introduction to Chapter II of my book, A BIODYNAMIC FARM, >published by ACRES, U.S.A. in 1994, to be reissued in January 2000. In many >ways I agree with Heinz and biodynamically grown is on all my signs when I >retail. It invites comment and educates consumers and farmers in nearby >stalls. > >At this point, however, the paralytic wrongness of hitching biodynamics to >a single organization is revealed. Biodynamic has to be a generic term >that's increasingly all-embracing without losing its unique goodness. If it >is, sooner or later a majority will see biodynamic as real agriculture and >the word biodynamic will be dropped for the sake of brevity. On the borders >of my thought I knew all along that Heinz was somehow in error, but I >couldn't get it in clear focus. Thanks to Greg Willis, however, it lit up >like Hiroshima at ground zero. > >This is going to take a little more explanation, so hang in there. > >Some BDnow readers may remember last year when Greg Willis waxed >hyperbolic, flaming such harsh invective against several high BD muckymucks >that he ended up self-propelled away from the list. He offended a whole >bunch of people, employing sixth grade insults, threats of lawsuits at the >drop of a hat and such like. > >It's not the sort of thing I usually admire, but I'm not so much scared by >such things as I'm inclined to be wary. I was pretty sure that at the next >turn or the one after that I too would be a target of his peculiar posts. > >I kept my eyes and ears open. It never came to that. All that happened was >I wrote to Greg privately and visited him face to face, confronting him >particularly about his attack on Steve Moore who was at that time the >president of the BDA. His response was I needed to trust him. He had good >reasons. He knew what he was doing, and I should just wait and see. > >Well, Greg may sometimes be short on tact, patience or good taste, or maybe >he has an unusual ability to be an asshole when necessary. I don't know. >But I can say, knowing him first hand, I like him very much. He's one of >the most knowledgeable, perceptive, intuitive, and innovative people I know >in all of agriculture. In particular I'm indebted to him for the way he >went to work making and using biodynamic horn clay, the mising BD Prep. It >was real genius, which is to say he proceeded with intelligence, insight, >conviction and a lot of energy. Early on I picked up on his horn clay prep. >He sent me samples of several types and I put them to use along with my >field broadcaster work. It proved to be the most important new development >since Steiner's Ag Course 75 years ago. I was so impressed with the >difference it made in my biodynamic farm that I just about moved California >to get him to speak and teach at my Georgia Biodynamic Conference last >September. He came and I wasn't disappointed. He was superb. > >It would be hard to find a more caring, hard working and extremely >insightful presenter of BD agriculture, though at this conference we also >had Harvey Lisle who has 42 years experience in this field and still is one >of the most innovative and forward looking people in American biodynamics. >Also there was myself (on my home turf) with my sense for the unity of >spirit and matter, the wonderfully enthusiastic Lee McWhorter of JPI which >is the backbone of biodynamics in America, Derek Trowbridge who, as his >slides and his wines showed, is a very accomplished biodynamic wine grower, >Jeff Poppen the Barefoot Farmer who is living proof that farming is fun as >well as a religious experience, and so on. The only thing lightweight about >this conference was the amount of publicity I got out ahead of time, but >that made it a more intimate experience for the lower than usual >attendance. > >I'm pretty sure Greg won the respect of everyone who attended, and I >believe one or two BDnow readers posted remarks to the list after the >conference that they came partly to see if Greg was anything like he seemed >in that series of postings--and found he was not. His insights and >demonstrations of superb finesse in stirring preps were so excellent they >should have all been on film, and as I understand it, Lee McWhorter >captured a fair bit of it on some reasonably professional video recordings >and will have these available. He's given me copies but I haven't had a >chance to view them yet. > >So that's part of the background. There's more. > >Back a few years ago there was a movement by the BDA to trademark the word >"Biodynamic" and its alias, "Bio-Dynamic." Chuck Beedy, the BDA Director, >and Jean Yeager, who is the present President of the BDA, explained this to >myself and other attendees at a Kimberton CSA Conference as an effort to >protect the term from use by just anyone who might decide to market their >latest coal tar perfume or synthetic rubber sneakers as biodynamic. After >all there was a real history and tradition behind this term and the idea >was the word maybe should be protected from cheap knock offs, as has, of >course, occurred with "organic" and "natural." > >Down at the gut level I didn't like this idea and was reminded of my >original feeling that at some point we needed to make this method of >agriculture so mainstream, so ubiquitous that use of the term "biodynamic" >became passe and the bad farmers ended up with the extra nomenclature. I >suppose I had a queasy premonition that this was yet another initiative >that would keep biodynamics out on the far fringes. However, I'm not >usually a vociferous opponent of things that I can't pick out the flaw in >and only feel uneasy about. I usually rationalize and go along with things >though I know enough to keep my eyes open. > >When I grew up in the newspaper business I always pasted up ads and copy by >eye rather than using t-square, right-triangle and centering rule. When I >spent four solid weeks cutting my driveway with a wheelbarrow and shovel, I >used no transit, string lines, stakes or tape measures. And I gauge how >much of this or that to add to the sauce by eye with no cups or measuring >spoons. If I had a dozer, no doubt I'd operate it by the seat of my pants. >I can be pretty perceptive, but I'm prone to dispense with using the finest >tools available for exact knowledge unless I believe it really >matters--like when adjusting the cylinder clearances of a web-offset >Hantcho magazine press for the perfect thickness of ink on glossy stock or >when using magnification, a level and vernier adjustments to read the >meniscus in a burette while titrating an acid to four decimal places plus >or minus three ten-thousandths. In this case I didn't ask someone with real >expertise in trademark law what all the implications were of trademarking a >term like "biodynamic." > >But Greg did. I have to hand it to him. > >One of the things he found out was if the Demeter ever comes after anyone >for using its trademark it can't afford to stop or it's discriminatory >prosecution. It's like sliding straight down a deep mineshaft on a quarter >inch greased cable. There's no stopping. It's the road to rigid orthodoxy. >I grant that someone like Disney Studios can afford to protect their >trademarks on Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck in court. And the Demeter >Association could probably afford to protect a trademark like "Demeter >Certified Biodynamic" because it already is so narrow it's defensible. But >that was not done, and the spectre of selective, preferential prosecution >ensures they cannot let anyone slide and use the term biodynamic without >the little circle symbol and a paid up subscription to Demeter's >qualifications. > >It's one hell of a can of worms. Ultimately they'll have to make all >authors and publishers conform, the members of this list, and anyone not >certified biodynamic by Demeter. I more or less believed back when it first >was explained to me that pretty nearly all if not all the officers of the >BDA or Demeter didn't intend to go after anyone farming with some >understanding--whatever it might be--of Steiner's insights into >agriculture. But admittedly I'm uneasy with anything that paves the path to >enforced orthodoxy because that means stagnation and ultimately death. It >certainly doesn't have any place in biodynamic agriculture, as orthodox >biodynamic is the ripest of oxymorons. > >You can read the details in Greg's documents following my post. It's in the >usual mind-numbing legalese, which I only read when I have to--but I read >this. One has to have some talent at bringing it to life, which my long >post is an effort to help with. > >Greg brought the whole thing to a head by applying for a trademark on the >term BD preps since that's another generic term of long history just as is >biodynamic. I happen to know that Greg has the highest admiration and >praise for Hugh Courtney who after Josephine Porter's death took on a long >and arduous job bringing JPI into being to ensure the BD preps would be >available to anyone for the good of the earth, even the most benighted >souls with the blackest hearts in the most stygian darkness at the deepest >of black holes. > > >But the point is ensuring that biodynamics grows. It is masterful how Greg >perceived the need and step by step brought things to a head. On behalf of >JPI, the BDA and Demeter, Aleen Rothschild-Seidel, Attorney at Law, >Washington, DC, petitioned the US Patent and Trademark Office requesting an >extension of time to oppose the Agri-Synthesis, Inc. application for >trademark on the term BD Preps--once on November 26, 1999 and again on >December 28, 1999. > >It is the December 28th request that really tears it. In the second >paragraph the silo opens and the ICBM appears. This paragraph starts by >saying the Demeter Association certifies Biodynamic farms and processors >and owns the certification mark BIODYNAMIC, Registration No. 2,286,984 and >they are opposing Agri-Synthesis, Inc.'s application to trademark the term >BD Preps. Shades of nuclear brinksmanship. In other words, they got their >trademark and they don't want Greg to get any ammo to fight back if or >rather when they lower the boom on his use of the term biodynamic. >Considering the present course that seems inevitable. > >I leave it to readers to draw their own conclusions. I highly recommend >this as I believe folks will think of many things I haven't. So far I see >it as essential to living in good faith for the Demeter Association to >place their trademark of the term Biodynamic in the public domain, thus >protecting the future of biodynamics from orthodoxy and stagnation. And >going 75 years with roughly 50 Demeter certified BD farms here in the US >seems stagnant to me. If the Demeter Association wants a trademark they >should apply for something suitable like "Demeter Certified Biodynamic." > >In fervent sincerity, > >Hugh Lovel >Author of A BIODYNAMIC FARM, published by ACRES, U.S.A. >Union Agricultural Institute >8475 Dockery Road >Blairsville, Georgia 30512 > >P.S. Those who want to see biodynamics in the public domain need to lend >Greg all the support they can in this matter. While it could get messy, if >Demeter was to realize what they are up against I believe they would >capitulate without harm or weaponry and put their trademark in the public >domain, thus protecting the term biodynamic from Monsanto or Du Pont while >making it available to all. Greg's e-mail address is: srcosmos@interx.net >and his Agri-Synthesis website address is http://www.agsyn.com. A brief >statement of your support and the reasons for your support would probably >be a good start. This is so hot off the stove there hasn't been time yet to >organize much else. > >Hugh > > > >Greg's post: > >So. Everyone out there in biodynamic-land thinks that each of us has >the right to use the word "biodynamic" as it relates to any product or >produce we make and/or sell - no strings attached. Well, think again >folks. Read it and weep (attachments). Two years ago I tried and tried >to get BD people to realize what demeter and the bda were up to. >Unfortunately what I predicted has now come true. They've notified me, >through their attorney, of their intent to file a lawsuit against us >unless we (Agri-Synthesis, Inc,) withdraw our application for a >trademark on the words "BD PREPS" with the Patent and Trademark Office. > >In my humble opinion, guess who's next? You are. Read on. It's not >just about "BD PREPS". It's about you. > >I will put the correspondence we received from their attorney, Aleen >Rothschild-Seidel, up on our website at http://www.agsyn.com as soon as >I can. She says she represents demeter, JPI and the bda against >Agri-Synthesis, Inc. and me personally. It says in part: > > "The Demeter association certifies Biodynamic farms and processors and >is the owner of the certification mark BIODYNAMIC, Registration >No.2,286,984." >... > "The Demeter Association is opposing the registration of the mark [BD >PREPS] on behalf of the association and also on behalf of its certified >Biodynamic farms and processors." >... > "Consumers interested in Biodynamic farming and gardening associate the >term BD PREPS with the high-quality goods produced by the JPI. If >Agri-Synthesis[sic] uses this phrase for its products, there is a high >likihood that the public will be confused as to the source of the >goods. It is unfair competition as well as an infringement of JPI's >common law trademark rights for Agri-Synthesis[sic] to 'pass off' its >products as those of JPI or to capitalize on the good will created by >JPI over the years. It would furthermore tarnish the reputation of JPI >if the Agri-Synthesis[sic] goods were confused with JPI's." > "We request that Agri-Synthesis [sic] immediately cease and disist >using the mark BD PREPS on its products and that it withdraw its >application for aregistration of the mark in order to avoid potentially >costly litigation." > >We believe that we have a very strong case and that we will win the >trademark rights to "BD PREPS" should we choose to pursue it. At first >we were reasonably certain of this (or we would not have made >application) but in the past 24 hours, new information has come to us >which indicates that (a) JPI was not the first to use nor publish the >phrase "BD PREPS" which eliminates their claim of originality (prior >usage by others doing so) and (b) at least one and possibly several >other people have been selling "BD PREPS" in the United States over the >years and neither JPI, demeter nor the bda ever objected to the usage of >the term, an action (or, more properly, neglect) which by definition >vitiates their claim of exclusivity. This makes our case much stronger. > >In addition, we now have in our possession extremely damaging evidence >of neglect and deception which we believe mortally wounds any potential >claims and objections they might have, evidence which we will reveal >through the proper venue when appropriate. Therefore, despite their >demands and threats, we will most likely vigorously pursue our >application as originally planned. It is neither our intent nor desire >to tear the biodynamic community asunder on this issue. However, what's >good for the goose is good for the gander. Our intent and desire is to >ferret out the truth and, when discovered, take appropriate and proper >action that is for the good of all biodynamic agriculture. > >Whether or not "BD PREPS" should be trademarked is the exclusive >prerogative of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, not the bda, not >demeter, not JPI and certainly not some high-priced Washington D.C. >lawyer who thinks she knows how to sling the legal bullshit in the hope >that she can scare us into withdrawing our application. It is our >opinion that, for whatever reason, she has her facts wrong and we can >prove it. > >(JPI has never attempted to register "BD PREPS" as a trademark. Nor has >demeter or the bda attempted to register "BD PREPS". Further musings: >even though demeter, JPI and the bda are separate non-profit >corporations, there are board members who have a seat on two different >boards e.g. anne mendenhall who sits on both demeter and the bda. I >wonder if ms. mendehall votes the bda member's dues over to support >demeter, or does she abstain. If she does, in my opinion, it's sort of >lining one's own pocket, in a manner of speaking. There is also a >question of whether or not demeter can maintian its status as a 501(c)3 >nonprofit if they own a trademark for which they charge for the usage. >On the other hand, if they don't charge, would it be a restraint of >trade if they limit the usage of "BIODYNAMIC" exclusively to those whom >they certify? Hmmm. But I digress. Interesting questions, though.) > >We will, of course, make a formal objection with the U.S. Patent and >Trademark Office on the registration of the word "BIODYNAMIC" which we >consider generic owing to the fact that it has been in use in this >country since at least 1938. And wwe encourage everyone to contact the >PTO and do the same. But this is not enough. > >Agri-Synthesis, Inc. has already spent over $5,000.00 in legal fees >trying to head off this disaster for you and all of us in the field of >biodynamic agriculture, and to make it possible to expand biodynamics in >the United States and the world, which in my opinion as you know, >demeter and the bda have woefully failed to do. What is at stake here >is not only your future as a biodynamic farmer selling your produce as >"biodynamic" but of all biodynamic gardners, farmers and practitioners >in the United States. This is, in my opinion, the battle for the future >of biodynamic agriculture in the United States. > >Although we are confident that we will convince the PTO to deny the >registration of "BIODYNAMIC" by demeter, Agri-Synthesis, Inc. cannot >carry this burden alone. We need your help. Demeter/bda/JPI must be >made to understand that there is widespread opposition to their >co-opting the commonly accepted, used and understood term "BIODYNAMIC" >and that their registration is a blatent and cynical attempt to control >your business and mine. The word "BIODYNAMIC" has been published and in >use in this country since at least 1938 and is commonly understood to >describe a generally understood practice of farming. That fact that >demeter would even consider trying to legally control this word by >registering the WORD!!! as a trademark, in an extremely broadly worded >definition (see the attachment) that encompasses virtually everything >grown biodynamically in the United States, is, in my opinion, >reprehensible, irresponsible and short-sighted and will cause the >existing schism in the biodynamic community to go deeper and wider than >ever before. The consequences for humanity are alarming, at the very >least. > >So we plead with you to help resolve this problem. We know that you and >all of the BD practitioners understand that if demeter/bda/JPI go after >me and are successful, you're next. It's as the Presbyterian minister >said of Hitler in Nazi Germany. To paraphrase, "When they came for the >Jews, I didn't object because I was not Jewish; when they came for the >trade unionists, the homosexuals and the Gypsys, I did nothing because I >was not one of them. When they came after the others, I did not defend >them either. Finally, when they came for me, there was no one left to >defend me." > >Do we really want this to happen to biodynamic agriculture in the United >States? What sort of example will this set for the rest of world to >follow? Do you now see the consequences? I predicted it was going to >happen two years ago and now it HAS happened. What does it take to get >everyone's attention? > >Please understand something very important here. This is not about our >application for the use of the phrase "BD PREPS". This is about YOUR >right to use the word "BIODYNAMIC" freely and without restraint as you >and others have done in this country for over 60 years. > >Demeter/bda/JPI cannot selectively enforce their trademark rights. They >cannot sue me but not YOU because that allows me to sue them for >selective enforcement, restraint of trade, malicious prosecution and so >on. They have to sue EVERYBODY or they lose their right to sue >ANYBODY. It never ends. The ULTIMATE Pandora's Box which will, in my >humble opinion, ultimately destroy the biodynamic agriculture movement >in this country, not to mention, in my opinion, backfire on demeter, the >bda AND JPI. > >In my humble opinion, as I have stated repeatedly over the past two >years, for biodynamic agriculture, this legal manuvering and abuse of >the trademark process by demeter/bda to gain by whatever means, ethical >or unethical, absolute control over biodynamic agriculture in this >county, with the attendant denial of our right to use the word >'biodynamic" with the sale of our products, without the prior approval >of the Demeter Association, Inc. (for which I would assume we and you >would pay cash money) is the single most destructive act, and most >self-destructive act, in the history biodynamic agriculture in the >United States and must be put to stop now. > >Greg Willis >President >Agri-Synthesis, Inc. > >Content-Type: text/html; name="ifetch4" >Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ifetch4" >Content-Base: "http://trademarks.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/if >etch4?ENG+ALL+3+948440+0+0+2681+F+1 +1+1+NO%2f2286984" > > > > >html>p://trademarks.uspto.gov/access/search-mark.html>spto.gov/ac >cess/search-bool.html>html>//trademarks.uspto.gov/access/search-num.html>o/ptcs/>tp://www.uspto.gov/go/ptdl/> > > >NO%2f228698 >4> (1 of 1) >>> >>>Word MarkBIODYNAMIC Pseudo MarkBIO-DYNAMIC Owner Name(REGISTRANT) >>>Demeter Association, Inc. Owner AddressBritt Road Aurora NEW YORK 13026 > >>CORPORATION MASSACHUSETTS Attorney of RecordALEEN ROTHSCHILD-SEIDEL >>>Serial Number75-323736 Registration Number2286984 Filing Date07/14/1997 >>>Registration Date10/19/1999 Mark Drawing Code(1) TYPED DRAWING >>>RegisterPRINCIPAL Other Registration Info.1999266 Published for >>>Opposition07/27/1999 Type of MarkCERTIFICATION MARK Other DataThe >>>certification mark as used by authorized persons certifies that the >>>organic agricultural products or applications have been grown and >>>processed in accordance with guidelines set out in the attached >>>"guidelines and standards for the grower for demeter biodynamic >>>certification and Organic-in-Transition to Biodynamic." These guidelines >>>set high standards for certifying organic products, and cover matters >>>such as building natural soil fertility; using natural methods to >>>increase crop resistance to fungal, bacterial and pest attacks; raising >>>livestock; and storage and processing. The guidelines prohibit use of >>>chemically synthesized fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, fumigants, >>>hormones, antibiotics, growth regulators or genetically engineered >>>organisms >>> International ClassA Goods and Servicesagricultural products and >>>applications, including various types of agricultural food and fiber >>>products and processed food products; DATE OF FIRST USE: 1985.07.00; DATE >>>OF FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 1985.07.00 > > >NO%2f228698 >4> (1 of 1) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="tarr" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Disposition: inline; filename="tarr" >Content-Base: "http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?reg >ser=serial&entry=75323736" > >=75323736"> o > >Thank you for your request. Here are the latest results. > >Serial Number: 75323736 > >Registration Number: 2286984 > >Trademark (words only): BIODYNAMIC > >Current Status: Registered. > >Date of Status: 1999-10-19 > >Filing Date: 1997-07-14 > > > >CURRENT OWNERS >1. Demeter Association, Inc. > > >GOODS AND SERVICES >agricultural products and applications, including various types of >agricultural food and fiber products and processed food products > > > >PROSECUTION HISTORY > >1999-10-19 - REGISTERED-PRINCIPAL REGISTER > >1999-07-27 - PUBLISHED FOR OPPOSITION > >1999-06-25 - NOTICE OF PUBLICATION > >1999-04-07 - APPROVED FOR PUB - PRINCIPAL REGISTER > >1999-04-05 - ASSIGNED TO EXAMINER > >1999-03-10 - COMMUNICATION RECEIVED FROM APPLICANT > >1999-02-08 - NON-FINAL ACTION MAILED > >1998-09-03 - COMMUNICATION RECEIVED FROM APPLICANT > >1998-06-22 - NON-FINAL ACTION MAILED > >1998-05-08 - COMMUNICATION RECEIVED FROM APPLICANT > >1998-04-13 - NON-FINAL ACTION MAILED > >1998-03-18 - ASSIGNED TO EXAMINER > >1998-03-18 - ASSIGNED TO EXAMINER > >http://trademarks.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ > >Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 23:52:54 +0000 >From: Greg Willis >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: Allan Balliett >CC: Hugh Lovel >Subject: Re: Biodynamic trademark > >Allan Balliett wrote: > >Greg - Do you mind if I forward this information to BD Now!? -Allan > -- > >You may put this on bdnow if you like. I would hope you do so. > >Allan and Hugh, > >I believe that Hugh has already taken care of that so please do not >forward it yourself. This is very serious business and I consider this >the single greatest threat to biodynamics and the advancement of the >biodynamic movement in the history of BD in this country. > >I consider it so important that I signed on bdnow temporarily to read >how people respond to this. In that regard, I received an email from >envirolink that said: > >"Subscription requests are not automatic for this list. Your request has >been forwarded to bdnow@igg.com for approval." > >I assume that this will not be a problem. > >You may be interested to know that the Kaliskos used the term >"Bio-Dynamic" in their book Agriculture Of Tomorrow written in 1939. >This is the oldest reference to the term I can find in my books and it >certainly predates demeter's claimed first use in July, 1985. > >I quote from page 288 in Agriculture Of Tomorrow: > >"Bio-Dynamic Farming means: Farming according to the suggestions of >Rudolf Steiner. We do not find the name 'Bio-Dynamic' a very good one, >therefore it has not been used in this book. So many movements and >remedies exist which have similar sounding names, that we have preferred >to call the method quite simply by the name of its founder, Rudolf >Steiner." > >This statement implies that the term was in use before 1939 as well >which is a benchmark of some kind. > >It would be helpful if someone out there in BDLand would do a complete >academic history of the creation and use of the term "BIODYNAMIC" so >that we could present it to the Patent and Trademark Office in an effort >to get this mark canceled. Perhaps Malcolm Gardner would be up to the >task since he seems to be the most academically credentialed man in U.S. >biodynamics today. > >Clearly demeter/bda took the term which was in common usage at least >since 1939, a period of at about 50 years, and appropriated it for their >own use and enrichment. The evidence I now have indicates that the same >thing happened with the term "BD PREPS" although I seriously doubt if >Hugh Courtney appropriated it with the intent of keeping it for himself >or JPI exclusively. Especially since the history of the use of the term >indicates that JPI never objected to its use by anyone else. I merely >applied for it at the suggestion of my patent attorney to bring this >"BIODYNAMIC" thing to a head. > >It would be a grave error if someone, on behalf of biodynamics in >general, did not oppose the registration of "BIODYNAMIC" as a trademark, >especially since it is so broadly written. BTW, this broad based >definition is also a weakness since it is, in reality, impossible for >them to defend it. With this mark in the possession of demeter, who can >call what they produce and sell "BIODYNAMIC" without infringing on their >trademark? > >In that regard, I and my company Agri-Synthesis, Inc. will oppose the >registration of the mark or our own behalf, on behalf of all of all BD >practitioners and on behalf of humanity which also will suffer from this >blunder. It would be very helpful if a chorus of voices in opposition >to it were to come from bdnow and other lists around the country. It is >a sad commentary on the state of the biodynamic movement in the U.S. >that so many people like you and me, and thousands of others who have >worked so hard and selflessly to bring BD into reality in this country, >only to see our efforts undermined by demeter/bda and suffer the loss of >what many of us of hold so dear - the pride of accomplishment of >bringing biodynamic agriculture or gardening to our own property, and, >in my case, the farms of my clients. > >It may be helpful to know that my attorneys have requested copies of all >the official documents concerning this matter from the PTO so that we >may trace the history of their application. When I get it, I will make >it available to anyone who wants a copy if they pay for the copy cost >and postage. > >You know, with regard to the BD community, this application was done in >total secrecy by demeter and the bda. The application was made on March >14, 1997 and after about two and a half years and after three denials >(which is VERY unusual and indicates that the PTO examiner had serious >reservations about this mark), the mark was finally Published For >Opposition by the PTO on July 27, 1999. (Did demeter notify you or >anyone you know of this?) It was registered as a trademark with the >Principal Registrant listed as "Demeter Association, Inc." on October >10, 1999. > >You would think that with something as important as this is, something >which has a direct impact on thousands if not millions of people, that >demeter/bda would have launched a public relations blitz to garner the >support of all the BD community and to assure that there would be no >controversy. But their secretive activity says to me, at least, that >they knew it was wrong when they did it and they knew that the only way >to get the mark registered was to conduct the process in secret. As I >recall, I was the only one to raise an objection last year and that was >completely ignored. So now the chickens have come home to roost but it >is not too late. > >U.S. law states that we have five years from the time the mark is >registered to file an Opposition for Cancellation of the mark. That >does not mean we can be complacent. Every year that goes by does more >damage to biodynamics, demeter and the bda. Unfortunately, or >fortunately depending on your point of view, we in biodynamics are >interrelated and interconnected. Any thing that one person does has >some effect, great or small, on everyone else. And being a relatively >small community, that effect is only amplified for each of us >personally. > >I assure you and Hugh that to an person, my clients are outraged (and >"outraged" is the kindest comment I heard) at demeter's usurpation of >their efforts to convert to biodynamic agriculture for the obvious (in >their view) and inevitable enrichment of demeter/bda. They are not >happy and will probably join in the Opposition for Cancellation of the >registration of the mark. > >I would be pleased to add your name and anyone else's name to the >Cancellation filing and I will publish the name and address of our >attorney in Towson, MD handling it should you request it. In my >opinion, anne mendenhall has acted in the very same way that she >criticized so vehemently when the USDA tried to co-opt and redefine the >term "ORGANIC". > >In my humble opinion, no amount of explaining or rationalizing by >mendenhall, in the official capacity as president of demeter >association, inc., can justify what they have done and even more >importantly, the way she and demeter/bda did it. > >The only action that demeter/bda can take now that would save face, save >their reputation (which I suspect is already permanently damaged), save >the reputation of the bda (which I suspect is also permanently damaged), >show the world that we in the biodynamic community really ascribe to the >high-minded principles that Rudolf Steiner espoused and avoid a very >public and very costly legal battle is to assign their mark "BIODYNAMIC" >to the Public Domain. This would eliminate the controversy, save them >and bda a ton of money and assuage their fears that Monsanto or Dupont >might go after the mark before they got it. This would be a selfless >and charitable act on their part but in light of the way they have >conducted this business so far, I doubt that they are ready to take it >at this time. Perhaps pressure from the BD community at large will >encourage them to take this step for the benefit of all. Shame on anne >mendenhall, shame on demeter, shame on the bda and shame on the board >members of each organization for supporting this internecine debacle. >They obviously never considered the consequences. > >Greg Willis Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 23:52:54 +0000 >From: Greg Willis >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: Allan Balliett >CC: Hugh Lovel >Subject: Re: Biodynamic trademark -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 1 20:31:53 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11983 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:31:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA09911; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:25:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA09318 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:19:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.49] (r-66.145.alltel.net [166.102.66.145]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id QAA18913 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 16:28:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199912311403.IAA04182@portal.txcyber.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 17:34:38 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Observancy Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 2825 Dear Martha, Yep. Everyone sees the four-leaf clovers, but few notice them. It goes to show you this idea of an objective reality taking precedence and being more "real" while a subjective reality just passively observes--what a crock. I wonder if anyone has a file of my postings? I happen to NOT have such a thing. Hugh Lovel >Hugh: >Yes, you'd sent the message once already. I just wanted to thank >you for your indepth e-mails. I always get a big 'shot in the shorts' >when I read your wisdom. >Allan was so correct when he said that an instant chat line wouldn't >work simply because of the care and effort the Biodynamic group >puts into their postings. >Back to your topic: >People can train themselves to be more alert and aware than they >are. Not only in business dealings but in everyday life. (I'm not >much of an alert businesswoman, but I do kinda pride myself on >being alert behind the wheel of my vehicle.) >An example, in my having to drive most places, it's an hour each >way to get to the town I work in, so I have a lot of 'down time'. >When I'm with others, I am amazed at how little they actually see. >("what deer?" ) >There's a black mare notorious about getting out on the road (at >night). This is a 70mph zone, so this is pretty dangerous! >I knew which pasture she lived in, and finally found the weak fence >spot she crawls out of. I was concerned and finally took some >baling wire and made a spider's web effect to patch it so the >owners could notice the gap and come put posts in. I've had to >watch a sheriff shoot a horse along here that had been run over. I >didn't want this one to be responsible for a wreck when I could >prevent it. >The same long drive, and just this past week, I watched a cow >during a difficult delivery. Headed in 2 days ago, I noticed that out >of 600+ cattle in a field, this one had separated herself close to the >roadside fence. The rest of the huge herd were out of sight. An >alarm went off. That afternoon, (at 70mph), I glanced at her, looking >at some spot intently on the ground, ears forward, slightly humped. >Nothing really serious, but something made me think, "she's in >trouble". She had that 'look', she'd probably leaked fluid and was >hoping there was a calf in it. Next morning (yesterday), I saw her >lying about the same place, still upright, chewing her cud, but no >calf at her side. A NICE young tiger striped cow, but I hadn't seen >the breed of bull, so I figured she'd been bred too young, slipped >her calf, or bull too big,, calf too big, etc., and can't get it out. >Sure enough, On the way home yesterday, the rest of the herd was >grazing all around and she was lying with head thrown back along >her backbone. I stopped and went to prod her, but she had just >died a minute or so before. The other cows weren't even alarmed >yet. I felt horrible because I was the only witness out of hundreds of >drivers the past couple of days. Yet, no way I could have penned >her and her owners may have been resentful at any intrusion. If the >cattle company that owns that field or even their close neighbors >had been more observant, this could so easily have been >prevented. They may regret the monetary loss, I grieve for the >cow's suffering. Could have / Should have doesn't make any >difference since I DIDN'T. > >And so in life. Not too long ago, I was called to jury duty on a >simple traffic violation. (ha). The defendent chose not to hire a >lawyer, and his first question to the panel (while deciding who to >choose as final jury): do you have a family member who was killed >due to a drunk driver? >The question came to me, and it snapped, I'd been INVOLVED in >this accident! I asked the arresting officer if this was an event back >on July 4 weekend on the Interstate? He said yes. I turned to the >judge and said 'Your Honor, I believe to have witnessed that >accident, was one of the first on the scene and we used my truck >& chain to pull the BURNING TRUCKS off the interstate. > So, I believe I'd be biased against the defendant. ' > >I was excused, of course. The wreck itself was a simple matter of >inattention. On I45, tho the speed is 70mph, people usually will get >run off the road if they only go that fast. 75 - 85 is more the norm. I >was headed to help my husband clear out his work apartment, and >not in a hurry to get there. Trucks and cars whizzed past me. I >passed a truck load of 'revelers', about 6 in the bed of the truck, >and maybe that many in the cab itself. More cars whizzed past, 18 >wheelers flew by me. The truckfull of people picked up speed and >joined the rest of the speeders. Someone either tried to pass >another, or something else out of control at a high rate of speed >happened. >I was cresting a little hill and saw dust and bumpers and heard >explosions. I put my emergency blinkers on, slowed to a crawl and >got in the center between both lanes so no one would whizz past >me to get any more vehicles involved. Sure enough, trucks were >spinning out of control, cars rolling over, looked like Dante's Inferno >happening right before my eyes. As I was too afraid to pass, and >was among the first on the scene, I flagged down a big trucker and >we used my heavy tow chain to drag the remaining vehicles off the >road while someone from the opposite side pulled people out of >their wrecks. People were covered in shrouds all along the hillside, >looked like so many picnic blankets gone completely insane. >I don't know how they could have determined who was in the wrong >on that, I just know if it was drinking involved, I was probably not >going to be a good juror since I saw first-hand the gristly results. >But, on an UP note on being observant, I've been witness to many >many calves born, maybe an instant or two before I happened >along. I've noted which cows were in heat, and helped a new >mother goat defend her babies from an enraged donkey in their >pasture. So, I guess it's a life - thing, and I am maybe more curious >about it than the next person. so I tend to 'see' more! >Martha, (Texas) >http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html >See TexCat Web page: >http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 03:14:54 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03162 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:14:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA25141; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:09:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA21077 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 02:09:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.175]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000102202120.PURR27648.mta3-rme@garudix> for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:21:20 +1300 Message-ID: <386FB33D.7C64@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 09:21:18 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Use of the term biodynamic Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2826 This all appears very disturbing and somewhat amazing in that the term biodynamic is used by many different fields, most notably physics and alternative health. Enter biodynamic into a search engine and see what comes up. Biodynamics IS in common and general use and not just by biodynamic farmers. I must say I find Gregs attempt to register BD preps just as horrifying as the US BDAs actions. Also this word is probably only registered in the US and for a very specific class of goods. Use of the word to refer to Biodynamics as a agricultural movement and philosophy will not be effected by this, surely. ???????? There is also a move in NZ to do something very similiar. There are prior use rights to all these things, from what I understand. If you have used biodynamic to describe your goods and activities prior to this registration you should have continued use rights. -comments please. I understand this is due in part to the fact that biodynamic is a generic word in common usage for many years. It is not a newly developed word by the BDAs. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 03:14:54 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03160 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:14:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA25100; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:08:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA20913 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 02:08:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.49] (r-66.10.alltel.net [166.102.66.10]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id MAA28620 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 12:58:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000801bf543b$36f9afc0$2e3548ce@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:04:35 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Use of the Term "Biodynamic"--Long Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2827 >Hugh- > >I'm assuming that you don't support the idea of Greg Willis trademarking "BD >Preps". After all, that is no better than Demeter owning "Biodynamic". > Assumptions are treacherous, but you may assume that in this case since it is absolutely true. The next few installments of this saga have not gone out on the net, but I think they will show a resolution to this question. However, what Greg did brought this pot to a boil, and I support him--until the stew is cooked. If there are any sides here, I have no choice short of suicide but to be on Greg's. There may not be any sides. Let's wait and see. >Ok, so what happens if the BDA does not stop everyone who uses the term >"Biodynamic" without their permission? Do they loose their trademark >rights? They get sued for megabucks worth of damages. They would keep their trademark, and if someone else found them discriminating again they would pay damages again. This doesn't take away their trademark but it makes it a heavy liability. The real problem here is once they start, Demeter can never stop prosecuting ANYONE who violates their trademark. It would soon be the end of Demeter, which is why I question whether there are any sides to this. > > >At what level of usage of the name "Biodynamic" does it take qualify as >something that the BDA must prosecute in order to avoid these concequences? >ie: Someone at a farmer's market claiming to sell BD food that isn't >Demeter certified? I don't know. That is, they would have to go down the list forever and I couldn't say where it might stop. > >Mike Majorowicz Pretty nasty, eh, Mike? But keep tuned. This will get so much better you won't believe it. Warm regards, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 03:15:01 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03182 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:15:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA25180; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:09:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA21161 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 02:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip034.computer.net [140.186.252.34]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA04240 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 14:20:57 -0500 (EST) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 14:22:25 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: January 02, 2000 - January 08, 2000 Message-ID: <24E5CA3B329E06AB0525685A006A4D1E.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id CAA21162 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2828 Calendar of the Soul [January 02, 2000 - January 08, 2000] Fortieth Week (January 5-11) And when I live in spirit depths And dwell within my soul's foundations, There streams from love-worlds of the heart, To fill the vain delusion of the self, The fiery power of the cosmic Word. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Und bin ich in den Geistestiefen, Erfüllt in meinen Seelengründen Aus Herzens Liebewelten Der Eigenheiten Leerer Wahn Sich mit des Weltenwortes Feuerkraft. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-2000 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+40 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 03:14:54 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03161 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:14:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA25001; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:08:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA19877 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 01:55:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.49] (r-67.145.alltel.net [166.102.67.145]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id AAA03101 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 00:05:52 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 01:12:11 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2829 >Hugh- > >I'm assuming that you don't support the idea of Greg Willis trademarking "BD >Preps". After all, that is no better than Demeter owning "Biodynamic". > Assumptions are treacherous, but you may assume that in this case since it is absolutely true. The next few installments of this saga have not gone out on the net, but I think they will show a resolution to this question. However, what Greg did brought this pot to a boil, and I support him--until the stew is cooked. If there are any sides here, I have no choice short of suicide but to be on Greg's. There may not be any sides. Let's wait and see. >Ok, so what happens if the BDA does not stop everyone who uses the term >"Biodynamic" without their permission? Do they loose their trademark >rights? They get sued for megabucks worth of damages. They would keep their trademark, and if someone else found them discriminating again they would pay damages again. This doesn't take away their trademark but it makes it a heavy liability. The real problem here is once they start, Demeter can never stop prosecuting ANYONE who violates their trademark. It would soon be the end of Demeter, which is why I question whether there are any sides to this. > > >At what level of usage of the name "Biodynamic" does it take qualify as >something that the BDA must prosecute in order to avoid these concequences? >ie: Someone at a farmer's market claiming to sell BD food that isn't >Demeter certified? I don't know. That is, they would have to go down the list forever and I couldn't say where it might stop. > >Mike Majorowicz Pretty nasty, eh, Mike? But keep tuned. This will get so much better you won't believe it. Warm regards, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 03:15:16 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03196 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:15:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA25233; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:09:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA21217 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 02:12:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip026.computer.net [140.186.252.26]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA05594 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:09:38 -0500 (EST) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:11:18 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: December 26, 1999 - January 01, 2000 Message-ID: <4FAE8276A2A4D9230525685900695983.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id CAA21218 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2830 Calendar of the Soul [December 26, 1999 - January 01, 2000] Thirty-ninth Week (December 29-January 4) Surrendering to spirit revelation I gain the light of cosmic being; The power of thinking, growing clearer, Gains strength to give myself to me, And quickening there frees itself From thinker's energy my sense of self. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ An Geistesoffenbarung hingegeben Gewinne ich des Weltenwesens Licht. Gedankenkraft, sie wächst Sich klärend mir mich selbst zu geben, Und weckend löst sich mir Aus Denkermacht das Selbstgefühl. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-1999 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+39 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 03:15:29 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03204 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:15:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA25275; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:09:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.mcn.org (mail.mcn.org [204.189.12.25]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA22257 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 02:33:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from 63.193.12.145 (ha-1e-men-p3-m13.mcn.org [63.193.12.145]) by mail.mcn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA04556 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 17:56:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <386E426B.42EF@mcn.org> Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 18:07:39 +0000 From: Kate Clarke Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Foxglove Farm (707) 937-4116 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Maria Thun/Stella Natura Wall Calendar References: <001901bf434b$5798c0a0$ebb7113f@micron> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2831 Hi Allan, Happy New Year! Please save me biodynamic calender $$ is forthcoming. Kate Clark po box 143 Comptche, Ca. 95427 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 03:15:52 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03213 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:15:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA25363; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:10:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA22344 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 02:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.49] (r-67.55.alltel.net [166.102.67.55]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id MAA26994 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 12:35:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001d01bf5440$542c6920$2e3548ce@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 13:41:53 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Corrected Reposting: BD Trademark Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2832 >Please explain exactly what happens when a trademark is put in the public >domain. Does that essentially void the trademark? > >Mike Majorowicz It protects that term from being trademarked by anyone else. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 03:16:20 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03273 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:16:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA25409; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:10:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA22440 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 02:38:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.49] (r-66.45.alltel.net [166.102.66.45]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA08146 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:34:05 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 19:40:28 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Biodynamic Trademark Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2833 News Flash! Up until now the scientific method of farming and gardening known as biodynamic agriculture has been rather clannish, to say the least. This is deplorable and it is high time for change, as biodynamics is by far the best of agriculture--regenerative, self-sufficient, highest quality, diversified, inexpensive, do-able, the whole nine yards. Above all it is spiritual, but it has hidden this light under a bushel and at this point in the states, under a trademark or mark. This post and one preceeding it are an effort to see that--without litigation--this trademark is placed in the public domain where it is free for all and cannot again be privatized. If after reading this you would like a copy of the preceeding post this may be obtained by asking me for it return e-mail. If you know of anyone else--and any lists or publications--who would be interested in this news please forward them this post. Translate it into every language. Tell this story everywhere. It is by far the hottest occurrence in the 75 year history of biodynamic agriculture. Now? Enjoy. Hugh Lovel, Author of A BIODYNAMIC FARM, published by ACRES, U.S.A. Union Agricultural Institute Blairsville, Georgia Agdoc writes: >Interesting issues and commentary. I will need to think carefully about this >one. > >Some initial thoughts: a comment and a question: > >Comment: If this is the >we are in a sad state of affairs. The real story about biodynamics is not >about who names or trademarks, but that this is a revolutionary, >spiritual practice. What have we come to if haggling about names is >important. Sounds to me like we've lost the meaning here folks, not >dissimilar to the way in which we have forgotten the real issue around >Christmas. > >If no one should trademark names, like biodynamic, etc. (and maybe they >shouldnt - good point) why is Greg wanting to trademark himself? > >Andrew Dear Andrew, I'm sure others may have just this sort of thoughts and questions. I'm not surprised these things haven't been clear from what I wrote. It is hard to make sort of thing obvious without thinking at great length. To address your last paragraph--the question--first, "Why is Greg wanting to trademark himself?" Let's be very clear about this. Greg Willis is NOT wanting to trademark BD preps for himself. If he does trademark it this will be to put it in the public domain, which means anyone has access and no one can privatize it. He only did what was necessary to show Demeter--and everyone else--how wrong it was to hold such power. Sooner or later it would be used, and Greg couldn't afford to get caught out on a limb. He took two years and spent a lot of money setting this scenario up in order to get the Demeter Association's undivided attention. In the process he set things straight in the whole biodynamic community. Greg gave everyone a wake up call. By the end of this letter I hope it will be clear why it horribly injures biodynamics in the eyes of the world to go around saying "Steiner said" all the time. However, the reason it is important to rescue the term biodynamic from the clutches of orthodoxy is to preserve its roots, which are wonderfully rich. Steiner's agriculture course is a true marvel, and he deserves credit for his genius. So on that note, just one little Steiner quote here: "The most important thing is to make the benefits of our agricultural preparations available to the largest possible areas over the entire Earth, so that the Earth may be healed and the nutritive quality of its produce improved in every respect. That should be our first objective." Has the Demeter Association done this? Or the Biodynamic Association? No. This is 75 years later. This fact alone should clear the air, as the real issue here is integrity. What right do they have to trademark the term biodynamic and then use it as a threat against Greg Willis? It's ironic that Greg had to apply for a trademark on the term BD preps in order to engage Demeter and the BDA through JPI, because the Josephine Porter Institute (JPI) long was the sole shining light in America in regards to making these agricultural preparations and getting them into widespread use. However, out of Greg's four tries at trademarking different terms, BD preps turned out to be the one that provoked the Demeter Association to use their own trademark as a threat. This is a pre-emptive strike, and it showed how true it is that power corrupts. The Demeter Association should never have had such power in the first place. It is too bad JPI had to be involved. Since I know Greg has the highest admiration for Hugh Courtney and JPI, I asked him, what if JPI joined him in the trademark application for BD preps, expressly placing this term in the public domain? "I love it." Greg responded. That would put the ball squarely in the Demeter and BDA ballcourt. Greg is hopeful the JPI board will agree and save lawyers fees. If JPI does, Demeter should also place their trademark of biodynamic in the public domain where it belongs. Consider. This already cost Greg thousands he could ill afford. He retained the best patent lawyers in the country and invested a couple years effort. But as one of the leading innovators in biodynamics he's all too aware he's the target of orthodoxy. Fortunately he's a junkyard dog. I'm not, at least not usually. You realize since Demeter's waved its petard at Greg, I'm next. My field broadcasters get the cost of applying the biodynamic preparations--including Greg's horn clay--down to two dollars per acre per year or less and they make it easy to cover vast acreages. I could show you the Demeter newsletter stating that these devices are not approved as the sole means of applying the preps. That's how far I got with many years of patience and diplomacy. There was a time one could not be Demeter certified while using a field broadcaster [also known as a cosmic pipe]. While I would agree that the best biodynamic results come from a combination of broadcasting and spraying, the broadcasters sure do a lot better than spraying once or twice a year. Greg and I both contend certification should be based on results not rules, but we're battling orthodoxy. Now maybe, you can see my stake in this. I'm next, so you may be sure I'm in Greg's corner. Also I hope to find the time soon to write a book on advanced biodynamics. It is much needed, and I want to use the term biodynamic without having orthodoxy come down on my head. Now to address your comment, which I think couldn't be more right-on-the-money. I said this was the most important news in American biodynamic history, and you replied that if this was true we are in a sad state of affairs. My agreement is like the General Sherman tree in Yosemite's forests, like Mt. Everest amongst the Himalayas, like Jupiter amongst the planets. I couldn't agree with you more. This IS the hottest news in the entire 75 years of biodynamics and biodynamics IS in a sorry state. To think, in 75 years only 50 certified biodynamic farms in the whole United States. How come so few? I've raised this issue of why more people aren't practicing biodynamics before. Your past response, as you will remember, was maybe they are not ready for it. I didn't like that response, as you probably also remember. But you're like a brother to me. I respect you a lot, and I gave it thought. When I did it was like a dense fog lifting and a brilliant June day beaming through. You were 100% right. Most people were not ready. Sunrise! An epiphany! When I closed my mouth I was lost in thought an indefinite time. WHY weren't people ready? In order to show why this trademark issue answers that question I must tell a story, so bear with me. I discovered long ago the importance of spotting misidentifications and examining assumptions, prejudices and beliefs. For Steiner buffs, he takes nearly thirty pages to belabor this point--with a big front end loader--at the start of ESOTERIC SCIENCE. It's essential for penetrating to the crux. What were my assumptions? Initially I assumed you meant very few people were advanced enough. But, you didn't say that. Thinking back, you said it as though you shrugged, mystified. You simply saw they weren't ready. When I encountered biodynamics I almost wasn't ready either. This wasn't because I didn't want to grow the best food. It wasn't because I denied the unity of spirit and matter. Both of us, of course, encounter people who don't study biodynamics either because they couldn't care less or because of an idee fixe that spirit and matter in no way conjoin. But that still leaves an awful lot of people. Maybe a majority. It was wrong of me to assume you were looking down on people when you said they weren't ready. But what worried me was my simultaneous impression that you thought folks might take a thousand years, maybe two, getting ready. Here's my story: As a research psychologist I had to face the problem of improving peoples' strength of character. We discovered how, with biofeedback, to peel away enough misidentifications, assumptions, prejudices and beliefs to deal with a person's aberations of will and thinking, a prerequisite to repairing the ego which bridges between these two. The result was enabling, sometimes fabulously enabling. [For readers with long-time biodynamic backgrounds, we freed people from Lucifer (the fallen angel) and Ahriman (the demon of the underworld) and restored the Christ within. Before biodynamics I never heard it expressed this way, but does the brand of shop talk really matter?] Normally this took close to 100 hours intensive biofeedback, though there may be faster ways. Most tedious was working through all the misidentification, assumption, prejudice and belief as I mentioned. Without this it is virtually impossible to deal with impotence and hallucination--to say nothing of imperfection. But once we got someone to the bare ego and cleared it? Great stuff! The trouble was case loss. A person might get free of all their demons and a week later have them back and tougher ones too. Occasionally I wished we'd left things alone. I thought the problem was insufficient strength of character, which I called force of personality. Moral fiber. Biofeedback could do some wonderful things, but it didn't seem to make a weak ego strong. I always think of John Wayne when I think of this indominability known as guts. Whether or not he had this quality in everyday life, he knew how to portray it. Of course, there's nothing that goes with guts like food. Highly developed guts can only come from highly developed food--food that is a far cry from the crude, watery pulp available. My colleagues couldn't see outside the city, so rather than argue I took off for Georgia to grow food that built strength of character. Of course I knew nothing about growing this sort of food. Who did? I was a university product, but strangely the best educated person in my life was my father, who only finished eight grade. So, even though I talked with the county agent and experiment station scientists, I also drew out the clerks at the coops and the farmers along the road. In a year's farming and educing these folks on farming topics I knew they didn't have what I sought, and I spent the winter praying. By spring I found biodynamics. Unquestionably, I knew I'd found my grail when I read Pfeiffer's preface to the Adams translation of Steiner's agriculture lectures. To quote: "When I asked him [Steiner] whether the new methods should be started on an experimental basis, he replied: 'The most important thing is to make the benefits of our agricultural preparations available to the largest possible areas over the entire Earth, so that the Earth may be healed and the nutritive quality of its produce improved in every respect. That should be our first objective. The experiments can come later.' He obviously thought that the proposed methods should be applied at once. "This can be understood against the background of a conversation I had with Dr. Steiner en route from Stuttgart to Dornach shortly before the agriculture course was given. He had been speaking of the need for a deepening of esoteric life, and in this connection mentioned certain faults typically found in spiritual movements. I then asked, 'How can it happen that the spiritual impulse, and especially the inner schooling, for which you are constantly providing stimulus and guidance bear so little fruit? Why do the people concerned give so little evidence of spiritual experience, despite of all their efforts? Why, worst of all, is the will for action, for the carrying out of these spiritual impulses, so weak?' I was particularly anxious to get an answer to the question as to how one could build a bridge to active participation and the carrying out of spiritual intentions without being pulled off the right path by personal ambition, illusions and petty jealousies; for these were the negative qualities Rudolf Steiner had named as the main inner hindrances. Then came the surprising and thought-provoking answer: 'This is a problem of nutrition. Nutrition as it is today does not supply the strength necessary for manifesting the spirit in physical life. A bridge can no longer be built from thinking to will and action. Food plants no longer contain the forces people need for this.' "A nutritional problem which, if solved, would enable the spirit to become manifest and realize itself in human beings! With this as a background one can understand why Dr. Steiner said that 'the benefits of the biodynamic preparations should be made available as quickly as possible to the largest possible areas of the entire Earth, for the Earth's healing.'" Try to imagine my thoughts. This biodynamic stuff was real familiar. I'd dealt on the one hand with the aberations of perverted and diseased wills, which Steiner called personal ambition and possession by Ahriman. On the other hand I'd dealt with the dementias of disengaged and deranged thinking which Steiner called illusions and possession by Lucifer. Pretty good nomenclature. Being enthralled by demons! This guy, Steiner, knew what he was talking about! We would strip away a person's impairments until we got to the ego, which bridged between an individual's power and their essence. This core of one's being is what some Christians call the Rock. Steiner was big on Christian terms, but I haven't read enough of his work to know if he uses this one. Sorry. I haven't spent as much time studying Steiner as life. To tell you the truth I think it's wrong when folks in anthroposophy study more Steiner than life. We live in a sorry world where virtually everyone suffers from invalidation and impairment of ego. In this obstructed condition the light of the ego appears to the inner eye as a wheel of fire, a gem or a sparkling Sun. It is tragically beautiful and associated with one's ideals, as well as the chakras. Relieving the obstructions and integrating the ego with biofeedback yields an unimpaired ego state where people can serenely set petty jealousy aside, no problem. Steiner talked about this as an inner Christ experience which united the two polarities of will and thought. Of course as I'd found out and as Steiner pointed out to Pfeiffer on the train to Dornach, it didn't do this too well when one's food didn't contain the necessary forces. Imagine. Here was the agricultural wisdom I sought. My solution to stabilizing case gain so that people got out from under all their stupidity, shruged off personal ambitions and illusions and set petty jealousies aside--and kept it that way. Biodynamics, eh? But, you know what? As I investigated I kept running into all the signs and manifestations of a true believer cult. My training in psychology was at the Personal Creative Freedoms Foundation in Los Angeles, founded by a fellow named Jack Horner. Just a regular guy who chain smoked until it killed him. A brilliant fellow mind you, but just a regular human being. Guess what the first required reading for our course was? Eric Hoffer's THE TRUE BELIEVER. We had to read the book and write a report on it before we could go on with the course. Horner took it most seriously. It wasn't a big book, but Hoffer knew everything necessary to identify and steer clear of true believer cults. The more I studied this method of farming the more I wished someone would require everyone to study Hoffer before renewing their membership in the BD Association. I kept running into people in biodynamics, and its parent movement, anthroposophy, who needed a six week course on the subject. Or more. Sure, if I pushed a little folks would put a lid on their Steiner worship. But I was disgusted by the true believer atmosphere. Whatever happened to growing food sufficient to nourish highly developed egos--bridges, unimpaired and clear, betwixt the will and thinking? So there it is, Andrew. I, Hugh Lovel, came close to not being ready for biodynamics. There's no telling how many others came along, far too advanced to get involved with a true belief trip. Without having my full-blown mission impelling them to put up with the hero worship and paralysis going on in biodynamics they kept right on going. Like I said, a fellow needs to look at his assumptions. At first I thought you meant people weren't sufficiently evolved to study biodynamics, and I didn't see it that way. It's terrible to disparage someone in thought like I did you, and I apologize. The truth is, ever so many people are far too evolved for biodynamics. I've felt it speaking and exhibiting at conventions. It doesn't take much "eau de truebelief" before there's a bad vibe in most peoples' eyes, ears, nose and throat. People involved with cults and true beliefs mostly are inapt thinkers looking for someone to think for them--along with some administrators seeking a sinecure. Eric Hoffer knew. This is not who we need in biodynamics. It's a new millenium--high time biodynamics grows up. You're so right. People aren't ready for biodynamics. Little wonder. It's time we start teaching agriculture from our own spiritual insights without turning around every ten minutes and genuflecting to someone 75 years dead. At my Blairsville Southeast Biodynamic Conference last September someone from New York had this question during a panel discussion with Harvey Lisle, myself, Greg Willis, Derek Trowbridge and Lee McWhorter. "What happened??" he said. "When I first found out about biodynamics I was blown away with what this guy, Steiner, knew back in 1924. But when I went looking for what had been done with this knowledge since, it was like biodynamics had fallen into a time warp! I couldn't believe it!" Well the person who asked this question encountered biodynamics by reading ACRES, U.S.A. and attending my conference. I greatly fear had he encountered it many other places he would have known what was happening to biodynamics and gone the other way. Thanks for your comment, Andrew. I've been 23 years wanting to get this off my chest. I fear there's not many like myself that would have stuck it out so long. Maybe I was that one in ten million that heard the call so unmistakably I couldn't walk away. Most people keep on trucking. As you so aptly put it, "The real story about biodynamics is not about who "owns" names or trademarks, but that this is a revolutionary, spiritual practice. What have we come to if haggling about names is important? Sounds to me like we've lost the meaning here folks, not dissimilar to the way in which we have forgotten the real issue around Christmas." So true! Once again I could not possibly agree more. The real story about biodynamics is: IT'S A TRULY REVOLUTIONARY SPIRITUAL PRACTICE. For the first time in the 23 years since I encountered biodynamics I have the chance to tell that story to everyone, which is what I've done in this post. I've just told the big secret of biodynamics. It's a revolutionary spiritual practice. You and I both go around saying it everywhere and it falls on deaf ears. Why? Until Greg brought this trademark issue to a head and lanced the poisonous carbuncle this story could not be told. There was always a thick atmosphere of a central organization with an orthodox code owning biodynamics. Shades of Demeter trademarking biodynamic. Eric Hoffer would have called this a true believer atmosphere. This is the antithesis of biodynamic. It's rigidity. That's exactly what Jack Horner taught us to avoid. Though Horner had nothing to do with Steiner he taught virtually the same spiritual truths--with no greater success I might add because people needed to eat biodynamic food. There's an unwritten orthodoxy in all this "Steiner said" stuff and it's oppressive. Steiner said, "Lucifer and Ahriman and Christ." Well, whoopee-do! These are wonderfully expressive, colorful terms, but there's all kinds of other ways of talking about reality and we don't have to say what Steiner said. This is reality! It's commonplace and everyone experiences it! When the Demeter Association threatened Greg Willis with its biodynamic trademark we reached the limit. This could hardly be truer since it is highly unlikely anyone in the world understands biodynamics better than Greg. It takes one to know one, so I consider I'm the next target, and it will go from there. You're not far from the top of the list yourself, Andrew. What we have here, everyone, is a watershed event, which is why I called it the "most important news in American biodynamic history." If Demeter formally places the term biodynamic in the public domain we may see biodynamics taught in the universities. At last! Warmest regards, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 04:07:59 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA04074 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 04:07:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA29339; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 04:01:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.bulkley.net (web1.vphos.net [207.102.129.200]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA29044 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 03:52:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from cybernet ([204.244.19.103]) by web1.vphos.net ; Sun, 02 Jan 2000 12:55:32 -0800 Message-ID: <000501bf5563$d9628920$6713f4cc@bulkley.net> From: "J&J Clifford" To: References: <199912311403.IAA04182@portal.txcyber.com> Subject: Re: Observancy Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:55:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2834 Hey Martha A timely note paralleling an experience here yesterday. We were crossing 4 mile bridge heading up the Kispiox valley for a New Years afternoon ski and Jo noticed a cow moose in an eddy in the otherwise frozen Skeena. We studied her dilemma for @ 10 min. & concluded she was done for. To selfish & ignorantly carry on with our day however was not an acceptable approach. We went back to town sounded a few alarms( conservation & police officers) & returned with a few buckets of sand, a spool of rope & and three other hands. The effort amounted to graveling the edge of the ice around where we judged her best opportunity was to get herself out. She wasn't able to put any faith in the notion that her mortal enemy was going to assist her. Trying to lay a rope on her wasn't going to work as she was forced away from shore into stronger current by our presence. So then we left. The crux of this is to do right or give it your best shot is what we need to do with things that confront us & there is no reason for regret. For allowing me this, as although I don't know, I righteously doubt that she made it and for that I feel bad,thanks Regards Jim (B.C.) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 5:24 AM Subject: Observancy > Hugh: > Yes, you'd sent the message once already. I just wanted to thank > you for your indepth e-mails. I always get a big 'shot in the shorts' > when I read your wisdom. > Allan was so correct when he said that an instant chat line wouldn't > work simply because of the care and effort the Biodynamic group > puts into their postings. > Back to your topic: > People can train themselves to be more alert and aware than they > are. Not only in business dealings but in everyday life. (I'm not > much of an alert businesswoman, but I do kinda pride myself on > being alert behind the wheel of my vehicle.) > An example, in my having to drive most places, it's an hour each > way to get to the town I work in, so I have a lot of 'down time'. > When I'm with others, I am amazed at how little they actually see. > ("what deer?" ) > There's a black mare notorious about getting out on the road (at > night). This is a 70mph zone, so this is pretty dangerous! > I knew which pasture she lived in, and finally found the weak fence > spot she crawls out of. I was concerned and finally took some > baling wire and made a spider's web effect to patch it so the > owners could notice the gap and come put posts in. I've had to > watch a sheriff shoot a horse along here that had been run over. I > didn't want this one to be responsible for a wreck when I could > prevent it. > The same long drive, and just this past week, I watched a cow > during a difficult delivery. Headed in 2 days ago, I noticed that out > of 600+ cattle in a field, this one had separated herself close to the > roadside fence. The rest of the huge herd were out of sight. An > alarm went off. That afternoon, (at 70mph), I glanced at her, looking > at some spot intently on the ground, ears forward, slightly humped. > Nothing really serious, but something made me think, "she's in > trouble". She had that 'look', she'd probably leaked fluid and was > hoping there was a calf in it. Next morning (yesterday), I saw her > lying about the same place, still upright, chewing her cud, but no > calf at her side. A NICE young tiger striped cow, but I hadn't seen > the breed of bull, so I figured she'd been bred too young, slipped > her calf, or bull too big,, calf too big, etc., and can't get it out. > Sure enough, On the way home yesterday, the rest of the herd was > grazing all around and she was lying with head thrown back along > her backbone. I stopped and went to prod her, but she had just > died a minute or so before. The other cows weren't even alarmed > yet. I felt horrible because I was the only witness out of hundreds of > drivers the past couple of days. Yet, no way I could have penned > her and her owners may have been resentful at any intrusion. If the > cattle company that owns that field or even their close neighbors > had been more observant, this could so easily have been > prevented. They may regret the monetary loss, I grieve for the > cow's suffering. Could have / Should have doesn't make any > difference since I DIDN'T. > > And so in life. Not too long ago, I was called to jury duty on a > simple traffic violation. (ha). The defendent chose not to hire a > lawyer, and his first question to the panel (while deciding who to > choose as final jury): do you have a family member who was killed > due to a drunk driver? > The question came to me, and it snapped, I'd been INVOLVED in > this accident! I asked the arresting officer if this was an event back > on July 4 weekend on the Interstate? He said yes. I turned to the > judge and said 'Your Honor, I believe to have witnessed that > accident, was one of the first on the scene and we used my truck > & chain to pull the BURNING TRUCKS off the interstate. > So, I believe I'd be biased against the defendant. ' > > I was excused, of course. The wreck itself was a simple matter of > inattention. On I45, tho the speed is 70mph, people usually will get > run off the road if they only go that fast. 75 - 85 is more the norm. I > was headed to help my husband clear out his work apartment, and > not in a hurry to get there. Trucks and cars whizzed past me. I > passed a truck load of 'revelers', about 6 in the bed of the truck, > and maybe that many in the cab itself. More cars whizzed past, 18 > wheelers flew by me. The truckfull of people picked up speed and > joined the rest of the speeders. Someone either tried to pass > another, or something else out of control at a high rate of speed > happened. > I was cresting a little hill and saw dust and bumpers and heard > explosions. I put my emergency blinkers on, slowed to a crawl and > got in the center between both lanes so no one would whizz past > me to get any more vehicles involved. Sure enough, trucks were > spinning out of control, cars rolling over, looked like Dante's Inferno > happening right before my eyes. As I was too afraid to pass, and > was among the first on the scene, I flagged down a big trucker and > we used my heavy tow chain to drag the remaining vehicles off the > road while someone from the opposite side pulled people out of > their wrecks. People were covered in shrouds all along the hillside, > looked like so many picnic blankets gone completely insane. > I don't know how they could have determined who was in the wrong > on that, I just know if it was drinking involved, I was probably not > going to be a good juror since I saw first-hand the gristly results. > But, on an UP note on being observant, I've been witness to many > many calves born, maybe an instant or two before I happened > along. I've noted which cows were in heat, and helped a new > mother goat defend her babies from an enraged donkey in their > pasture. So, I guess it's a life - thing, and I am maybe more curious > about it than the next person. so I tend to 'see' more! > Martha, (Texas) > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html > See TexCat Web page: > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 04:24:06 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA04172 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 04:24:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA00103; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 04:18:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA29962 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 04:15:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 63.23.17.117 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 01:19:37 -0800 Message-ID: <005501bf55cc$b63cf200$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 01:27:09 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2835 Dear Hugh, Your very, very long post has many points in it that you seem to be trying to make. Thank you. However, most of it seems to be an effort at pursuading us that somehow Demeter USA (and others perhaps) are keeping people from using the term biodynamic. The only action I have heard of is that Greg Willis has tried to trademark the term and that Demeter has objected. I have never heard of Demeter or anyone else, keeping anyone from using the term biodynamic (or similar terms) in good faith. It seems as though Demeter has the responsibility to promote and protect biodynamics, but in a very loosely defined manner. If someone were to try and trademark one of these names, it seems reasonable that Demeter would object. Are there any other facts we are not privy to that would explain the need for all this legal activity? Seems like a diversion from all the good work we need to be doing. To my knowledge - maybe I am naive - no one (from Demeter or elsewhere) has ever kept anyone from making preps, farming biodynamically, etc. If biodynamics is a light under a bushel, as you write, then certainly it has not been Demeter or the BDA that has kept it from shining. They may not have been the best promoters or entrepreneurs, but they have been steadily making biodynamics available to the North American public since 1938. Books, tapes, conferences, research, the journal. If anyone can do it better, no one is standing in the way. I dont like all the decisions the BDA or Demeter USA has made over the years, but as someone who has been involved for over 25 years now, both on the inside and on the outside of these organizations and as a farmer who has benefitted from them, I can attest that there is no evil intent on the part of the people involved in Demeter USA, the North American BDA, JPI or any of the several other biodynamic groups in North America. They are all good, hard working people, most of whom have spent their lives working in the garden and out in the field. Biodynamics is not just a that is somehow, also, vaguely spiritual. Biodynamics is inseperable from the spiritual science known as Anthroposophy, just like botany is inseperable from the natural science known as ecology. You can study it alone, but to understand it well, work with it effectively and innovate within it, you need to understand the greater context from which it stems. This is called systems integrity. Seperating biodynamics from Anthroposophy is like seperating botany from ecology, which is exactly what so many people did in creating conventional agriculture. Let's not make that same mistake again, only on the other side of the paradigmatic fence. Cheers, Andrew Lorand, Ph.D. Executive Director of the Kolisko Institute for Biodynamic Agriculture From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 11:00:08 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07853 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:00:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22000; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:53:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21800 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:51:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.19] (r-66.46.alltel.net [166.102.66.46]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id JAA15815 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:55:29 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002c01bf55c3$37ba4080$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:37:21 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: opportunity Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2836 >Hugh, > >Thanks, again, for the good exchange. I have continued to understand where >you are at in all this trademark business to the best of my abilities. > That's what I like about you, Andrew. >Lets look at some fundamental assumptions here: At least what I understand >which no doubt is but one perspective and I am open to be educated >otherwise... > >Demeter is a financially poor non-profit aimed at protecting and promoting >biodynamic quality methods & products on a huge continent filled with >millions and millions of people. To say the least, it does not have a large >budget or staff, nor does it portend to be a successful business >organization. It has been muddling along for some time. However, it is >pretty benign. Always has been. Now for those of us who see the great needs >of the world, the earth and the many individuals who would be so much better >off with higher quality foods, well, muddling along seems like it ought not >to be good enough. It might even make us wonder why we are just barely >muddling along. Its frustrating no doubt. Frustrating, but not evil. > >People of good faith should investigate carefully the situation and make >careful assessments - and by my way of thinking - do everything possible to >either help improve matters (in the spirit of mutual support) or simply try >and do something else that would serve similar purposes (if one felt one >couldnt really help for whatever reason). Making Demeter or Anne Mendenhall >out to be the devil is simply rediculous. Demeter (and Anne) may not be the >symbol of entrepreneurial success or the best example of how to go about >promoting and protecting biodynamics, but to make them out to be some >vicious, elite, cult-adhering whatever is simply over the top. Why? For what >end, really? I still cannot fathom it. If someone can do it better, go for >it. No one is standing in the way of anyone doing good work! Going to court >over this stuff is the most un-spiritual thing I have ever heard of. Did >Rudolf Steiner ever go to court to settle matters? Did Jesus? Buddha? I >simply cannot see how this will help. > Dear Andrew, You know, it wouldn't pay to be naive. I found as a kid delivering newspapers there were certain viscious dogs who tried to sneak up on you and take you by the heel. It was not so much a matter of being scared as being wary. A person does well to be wary. My investigations in this matter so far have yielded this: There's real money behind the fact they didn't trademark "Demeter certified biodynamic" but rather trademarked the generic term biodynamic. There's a microorganism, radiodurans, that lives in atomic reactors and repairs its DNA so fast they can't keep it out of the reactor. It eventually it takes the reactor down. THAT's biodynamic. It should and could be part of the language. Trademarking the term has a very chilling effect on our entire movement. And, unfortunately, there IS serious money with an agenda behind this. One of the people I found this out from is Courtney. He told me about the trademarking in other, predominately European countries. Apparantly most of the money is coming out of Germany and Lichtenstein, and they've already trademarked the term biodynamic in several countries, one of which is Germany. What's the agenda? I don't know. But I'm certainly uncomfortable with it. It sounds really--what can I say?--demonic. When someone gets power over you, are they not going to use it? I'm not so sure. Why did they get it in the first place? I have no reason to think Demeter won't give me trouble over my use of the word biodynamic. But that's not even the point. The point is how this vauge threat poisons the atmosphere. It makes it like walking around quicksand all the time. The history of these things is rife with reasons not to be naive. All I need to do is go teaching biodynamics and writing books and then being told I can't call it biodynamic when I'm overextended somewhere. >No one is going to come after you Hugh. I think the whole idea of prep >broadcasting is pretty darn interesting. I find it far-fetched from my own >experiences, but interesting none-the-less. I would defend your right to try >it out, promote it, sell-it, share-it, whatever. Calling it biodynamic is a >completely different matter. You broadcast bdpreps with your cosmic pipe. >Way cool, especially if it works. You dont need to call the method of >broadcasting as such or compete with demeter over the issue or >try to be certified or anything of the sort. Just do it. If it works for you >and other folks, the news will spread you can be sure. Just call it the >cosmic pipe in which you broadcast bd preps and leave it at that. No one can >say a thing. Nothing. You have and will always have the right to do your >thing. Do you really need to have the whole process certified or called >biodynamic? or anything else for that matter? why? What is all this fuss >about when we have real work to be doing?! I understand your point of view Andrew. You're right enough that they can't come down on me personally if I just go ahead and do things and don't use the term biodynamic. But now you've asked the question of what's all this fuss about when there's so much to be done? Well, trust me, a practical farmer, that I'm not interested at all in courtroom battles or anything unnecessary for that matter. And I'm not a lunatic. I've very practical and grounded. And as my trademark post shows I know what biodynamic is ALL about and it IS a revolutionary spiritual practice, just as you said. I think what you're failing to see is the battle is for men's minds. The battle is for significance. You wouldn't call broadcasting biodynamic. But that's because you don't understand it. It is one of the most biodynamic things going. It is way more biodynamic than Demeter's requirement of a few sprays a year. The way broadcasting the preps works is it creates resonance in the ethers, the organizational, life force fields of soil and atmosphere. The way spraying the preps works is the same. The pattern is established and things start to fall into the pattern like water vapor crystalizing into a snowflake. There's big differences in the modalities. You sprinkle the preps on the surface of the soil and they establish the pattern one way. You broadcast the pattern with a copper coil in a field broadcaster and you establish the same pattern but in a different way. This is organizational force we are talking about. And it is the best way I know of carrying forward Steiner's intention of what he said was the most important thing--making the benefits of our agricultural preparations available to the largest possible areas over the entire Earth. Field broadcasting is biodynamic agriculture as it was intended, and not this ridiculous stuff of certifying 50 biodynamic farms in 75 years and actually telling farmers that they don't have to spray preps but a few times a year. Greg has his clients spray--perhaps 30 times a year. If he wants to bring a vineyard to life he does it, no fooling around. You have to be committed to spraying preps as often as it takes. Greg gets real results and so do I. We want to see results. We are really biodynamic. You seem to think I don't need to call it biodynamic, but you simply don't understand. That's why I wrote that long post and summarized all the innermost secrets of anthroposophy--all about Ahriman, Lucifer and Christ. People need to know this will rescue them from impairment and allow them to manifest the spirit in everyday life. And we need a term for it that works from one end of the earth to the other. We're fighting for the right to use an IDEA. People have this idea, everyone, somewhere in their experience, because it's an everyday reality. Everyone experiences their impaired ego every day. They experience being possessed by Lucifer and Ahriman everyday. Everyone calls it something different. Everyone sees a different piece from a different viewpoint. Well we've got to develop a vocabulary around the world for this. We have to know there is an agricultural remedy for this impairment that everyone experiences. That remedy is biodynamics. It's a revolutionary spiritual practice. It's going to take a while but we can farm this world into enlightenment biodynamically and I don't know any other way it can be done. We can't 'be having our terms for this usurped by a bunch of do-nothings who want to control some kind of certification and marketing thing. They could easily enough trademark "Demeter certified biodynamic" but that's not what they've done. What they've done is certified a word in the English language and posed a threat to anyone like myself who uses it. They have confiscated one of the most significant terms in the English language for their private use. I don't like that. I need to use that word, confound it. Marketing? What does it matter? Demeter wants to protect a few farmers' ability to charge a little extra? Heck. I studied Demeter's guidelines 15 years ago and learned what I could from them. They were useful. But I've always stood on my reputation that what I grow is biodynamic. And boy is it! It's so biodynamic it is amazing. I'm always passing out samples to taste at our market and people come back for more, and I'm charging 3 and 4 dollars a pound for potatoes, 20 a pound for garlic, 3 dollars a pound for cornmeal and things like that. I'm selling out. I'm making a name for biodynamic that I'd really rather that Demeter certified products not contaminate because so many of them tend to be pale by comparison. But I'll be magnamous and let them use the term. Then why can't I use the term? I've got farmer Hugh's biodynamic and if you get it from farmer Hugh you can rest assured it will be the best whatever you ever ate. People will find out that not all biodynamic is the same and get farmer Hugh's biodynamic. But in my view marketing doesn't really matter much. It's a tiny issue. What matters is getting these preps all over the Earth. We've got to have a lot of people working at it with a real will for that to happen, and to do that we've got to get an IDEA across to them. We are fighting for their MINDS. We have to have this word, biodynamic because of its roots, because of its significance, because it goes back to Lucifer and Ahriman and Christ and the Rock. We can't let Demeter have it or we have to create another long history rich with significance with some other term. Oh, we can do that, sure. In the process of spreading any idea we will have to create words and they end up having to have all kinds of synonyms. But it's a whopping set-back to lose a key word like this that is a part of the language should never be someone's commercial property. > >All this business about individuals trademarking this or that, going to >court, long-term strategies to force people to do this or that via the court >system (adversarial paradigm) is simply a loose-loose proposition. No one >will win, everyone will loose. Guaranteed. > >We have so much positive work to be doing. I cannot personally see how all >this fighting and wrangling, intriguing, etc. will get us anywhere. No one, >not Demeter, JPI or the BDA is standing in the way of anyone doing good >work: farming, gardening, making preps, etc. What am I missing here Hugh? >This - to me - is a diversion away from the real story which is that we need >to work hard, both in the field and in our souls. Wrangling in court will >not ever produce a better world, not for anything, certainly not for >biodynamics. No one is standing in the way of good work. You're so right there's so much important work to be done. But this business of ursurpation of the language IS standing in the way. I'm explaining it to you brother. I'll keep trying until you get it too. I know what I'm talking about, and though I think I'm saying it, maybe I'm not so hang in there and keep asking questions until I make sense to you. I don't know how you do it, Andrew, but I've been learning about you that you usually go right to the meat of the discussion. You've hit it here, once again. I'm going to post this to the list so everyone can read it. > >respectfully, >Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 11:00:09 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07855 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:00:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22051; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:54:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21806 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:51:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.19] (r-66.46.alltel.net [166.102.66.46]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id JAA15929 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:55:33 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <005501bf55cc$b63cf200$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:01:50 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2837 >Dear Hugh, > >Your very, very long post has many points in it that you seem to be trying >to make. Thank you. However, most of it seems to be an effort at pursuading >us that somehow Demeter USA (and others perhaps) are keeping people from >using the term biodynamic. The only action I have heard of is that Greg >Willis has tried to trademark the term and that Demeter has >objected. I believe the Greg Willis thing is going to ensure that Demeter or the BDA can't trademark the term BD preps like they did the term biodynamic. But let's wait and see. Negotiations are going on for JPI and Hugh Courtney and myself tojoin together to trademark this for the public domain so it can never be made private property. We'll have to see about that. The fact remains that Demeter HAS trademarked the term biodynamic. That's an estabalished fact, and yes, I'm trying to persuade people it is a fact and that it is of tremendous significance. > >I have never heard of Demeter or anyone else, keeping anyone from using the >term biodynamic (or similar terms) in good faith. It seems as though Demeter >has the responsibility to promote and protect biodynamics, but in a very >loosely defined manner. If someone were to try and trademark one of these >names, it seems reasonable that Demeter would object. Are there any other >facts we are not privy to that would explain the need for all this legal >activity? Seems like a diversion from all the good work we need to be doing. >To my knowledge - maybe I am naive - no one (from Demeter or elsewhere) has >ever kept anyone from making preps, farming biodynamically, etc. I've addressed this in a parallel post entitled OPERTUNITY. Print it out so you can follow along with this one because you're right. Time is of the essence and I have precious little to waste. > >If biodynamics is a light under a bushel, as you write, then certainly it >has not been Demeter or the BDA that has kept it from shining. They may not >have been the best promoters or entrepreneurs, but they have been steadily >making biodynamics available to the North American public since 1938. Books, >tapes, conferences, research, the journal. If anyone can do it better, no >one is standing in the way. I dont like all the decisions the BDA or Demeter >USA has made over the years, but as someone who has been involved for over >25 years now, both on the inside and on the outside of these organizations >and as a farmer who has benefitted from them, I can attest that there is no >evil intent on the part of the people involved in Demeter USA, the North >American BDA, JPI or any of the several other biodynamic groups in North >America. They are all good, hard working people, most of whom have spent >their lives working in the garden and out in the field. I addressed this in my long post, Biodynamic Trademark. What Demeter and the BDA have done is create an atmosphere I called "eau de truebelief." You say that certainly they have not kept the light of biodynamics under a bushel. I say that certainly they have. These are two opinions. I guess one has to try they out and build enough familiarity with what goes on to form one's own opinion. Your opinion is the currently prevailing one I'm afraid. I don't doubt it will be an uphill climb to gain acceptance for my opinion. I'm trying to persuade people that creating this aura of mystery, this "eau de truebelief", this system of you have to farm by this certain rote proceedure outlined in our Demeter manual to be biodynamic is stifiling the development of biodynamics.I'm contending Demeter and the BDA are throttling the progress of biodynamics. I'm certain of it, but that's my opinion expressed on this list and nobody who doesn't want to has to believe me. They can look at Demeter and the BDA and see what fine folks they are. Well, they ARE fine folks. They have done a lot for biodynamics over the years. I'm not trying to disparage them. But it is my contention that they are stifling biodynamics. For example, my contention is that certifying by rote proceedure is killing biodynamics. You live out there by Greg so you know that with his "AgriSynthesis Certified Biodynamic" program he's got a manual that's much, much thicker than Demeter's. He doesn't tell his clients they only need to spray a few times a year, because what he tells them is you've got to spray as many times as necessary to bring your vineyard to LIFE. His program gets results and gets them fast. Demeter's program holds people back. I'm telling it like it is, Andrew, and you live there and can report back to the list on this. Then people won't have to take my word for it. They can take yours. I could say the same thing about my field broadcasters. I broadcast BD preps in them, so you may be sure I don't want any private interest--including Greg Willis--trademarking the term BD preps for their private interests. I've got a real stake in this because what I'm doing with field broadcasting stands to "make the benefits of our agricultural preparations available to the largest possible areas over the entire Earth" and I fully intend to use the terms biodynamic and BD preps generically and I want to have them in the public domain. You may be sure that my interest is right in there with JPI and Hugh Courtney in seeing that no one including Greg gets a private hold on the term BD preps. If they do it will stifle biodynamics I don't have any question of it in my military mind. You don't let some other country get ahold of your key natural resources and than get in a fight with them. That's military strategy. Military strategy requires that you protect your key resources. The word biodynamic is a very key resource, and Demeter is using it privately. Suppose my contention is true that Demeter is holding back biodynamics by having a certification proceedure that takes people years to become weakly biodynamic? Greg and I have methods of bringing farms into robust biodynamic vigor in a much shorter time than the Demeter program. Now what does that do to me if I don't know whether I can use the term biodynamic to describe what I do? The term biodynamic is a key natural resource for me. What do I do if Demeter says I can't use it? What does Greg do? He's a genius at bringing a place to biodynamic life. I've been there and seen and you live there and you can report back to the list. Tell us what you know to be true, Andrew. And please forgive me for ranting about this. My whole body quivers like a tuning fork over this matter. > >Biodynamics is not just a that >is somehow, also, vaguely spiritual. Biodynamics is inseperable from the >spiritual science known as Anthroposophy, just like botany is inseperable >from the natural science known as ecology. You can study it alone, but to >understand it well, work with it effectively and innovate within it, you >need to understand the greater context from which it stems. This is called >systems integrity. Seperating biodynamics from Anthroposophy is like >seperating botany from ecology, which is exactly what so many people did in >creating conventional agriculture. Let's not make that same mistake again, >only on the other side of the paradigmatic fence. > Once again you are so right, Andrew. You seem to hit paydirt at every turn. That's why I worked so hard on my post Biodynamic Trademark. That was no boilerplate posting. I worked till dawn two nights straight at the keyboard to describe in no uncertain terms just what anthroposophy was all about. It's about peeling away people's spiritual entrapments of misidentification, assumption, prejudice and belief and dealing on the one hand with the things that disempower the will and on the other hand dealing with the things that disengage the thinking. Then, finally dealing with the impairments to the ego and integrating the personality. Steiner called this casting out the demons of Lucifer and Ahriman and experiencing the Christ within. Then a clear, unobstructed bridge functioned between the will and thought. You see, this is really what Christianity was supposed to be all about too. And it is what we did at the Personal Creative Freedom's Foundation in Los Angeles in a hundred hour block of biofeedback therapy. And what an effect this can have on people! The trouble is this only is strongly effective when you eat biodynamic food, and, I might add, it is far more effective if you have been eating such food since birth. Having an unimpared ego is so empowering it's hard to imagine unless you've gone from not having one to having one. Anyway Anthroposophy and biodynamics are inseparable. But, of course, you don't have to belong to the Anthroposophical Society or the Biodynamic Association to get there. That's the rub. The myth that you have to be a member of something with a trademark is a myth that's long overdue for being exploded. I suppose I ought to say that the Anthroposophical Societies throughout the world are doing something similar with anthroposophy that the BDA and Demeter are doing with biodynamics. Holding it back. I DO feel that way, but fighting on that battleground will have to wait. I want to concentrate on setting biodynamics free for now. Anyway, I sure didn't want there to be any mistake about it that biodynamics is a revolutionary spiritual practice, which were your words for it. This is the big secret behind biodynamic agriculture. I laid it on the line as well as I knew how. As you can see I came to biodynamics with this understanding. It isn't something I had to spend years going to meetings and reading books like they do in the anthroposophical society. I came to biodynamics because I knew of this spiritual connection already from day one. I didn't have to pay any membership fee or go anywhere or do anything but just be myself. No one else has to either. You can get into biodynamics just like that in one minute folks. It will take time to learn how it works, but you can know you want to learn this in just one minute. I'll help folks learn it and I know youwill too, Andrew. They only have to know what it is and know they want it. I didn't want there to be any mistake about the reason we must stop fooling around about making the benefits of the BD preps available to the widest possible areas of the entire earth. That's what this Biodynamic Trademark business is REALLY about. It is a battle for people's minds. Well, it's morning once again and I've got to milk the cow and go mail documents to Hugh Courtney. Greg will be mailing his to Courtney in a few hours. God, I hope we win on this one! Warmest regards everyone, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 11:04:23 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07974 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22614; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:58:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22385 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:56:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.19] (r-66.46.alltel.net [166.102.66.46]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id KAA26957 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:01:29 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003301bf55f1$34cd1cc0$243548ce@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:07:54 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2838 >Hugh- > >You wrote- >"If Demeter formally places the term biodynamic in the public domain we may >see biodynamics taught in the universities. At last!" > >I have alot of respect for you Hugh, but the above quote sure smells like >overselling to me. > You might be right. A lot of things will have to happen before BD hits the classroom, but I DO have the vision that it will in my lifetime. I expect I've answered most of your other concerns in my two posts to Andrew, but get back if I haven't. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 12:12:14 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11556 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:12:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29213; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:06:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26534 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:42:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.16.44]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Mon, 3 Jan 2000 16:46:33 +0000 Message-ID: <002601bf560a$54cc4c80$2c102cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: <386FB33D.7C64@xtra.co.nz> Subject: Re: Use of the term biodynamic Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 16:38:19 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2839 Can someone please explain to me the concept of prior use as an obstacle to a US patent ? I understand that, although products of the neem tree have been used medicinally by the people of India for generations (and it is sacred to Hindus), a US pharmaceutical company has managed to patent them. Does this mean that they can sue people in India, or only other US companies ? More to the immediate point, how does this leave the British Bio-Dynamic Agriculture Association (note the hyphen - would this make a difference ?) and the company in Scotland calling itself Biodynamic Supplies (no hyphen) from which most British BD growers get their preps ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 12:13:32 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11573 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:13:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29430; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:07:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27650 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:56:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.161.75]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000103170453.ZDJC1752249.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 06:04:53 +1300 Message-ID: <3870D587.3E62@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 05:59:51 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: NZ action References: <004201bf55e4$0489afe0$8c9dafc7@333> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2840 Michael Roboz wrote: > > Dear Glen, > > I seem to remember that NZ had a case where a product was termed > biodynamic, which was not certified by the NZBDA, and there was either > a threat of legal action or legal action. Can you recall it? Michael No not directly. The BDANZ has not taken any action on any case such as this other than informally due to the fact that Biodynamics is not a registered trademark and the governmemt has not yet got any laws in place to enforce organic or biodynamic as meaning certified trademark only. There was a bit of action years ago over a company calling itself Demeter NZ. Interestingly this guy was a buddy of one of the council members ( who was ultimately removed due to dishonesty) and was trying to become the only exporter approved by the BDANZ. I think they eventually did give him this title too. Not sure of the present status. Nothing really came of it. The BDANZ did not have the finances to fight such an action against a Multi million $ company, and it still does not. I expect with the GReen in government now the trademark situation will tighten up. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 12:42:49 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12091 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:42:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02725; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:37:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAB02071 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:30:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.19] (r-67.162.alltel.net [166.102.67.162]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id LAA16705 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:34:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002601bf560a$54cc4c80$2c102cc3@m00q6c00> References: <386FB33D.7C64@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:41:22 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Use of the term biodynamic Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2841 >Can someone please explain to me the concept of prior use as an obstacle to >a US patent ? I understand that, although products of the neem tree have >been used medicinally by the people of India for generations (and it is >sacred to Hindus), a US pharmaceutical company has managed to patent them. >Does this mean that they can sue people in India, or only other US companies >? >More to the immediate point, how does this leave the British Bio-Dynamic >Agriculture Association (note the hyphen - would this make a difference ?) >and the company in Scotland calling itself Biodynamic Supplies (no hyphen) >from which most British BD growers get their preps ? > Tony N-S. Here in the US the term bio-dynamic was trademarked under the same trademark as an alias. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 12:52:45 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12223 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:52:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03727; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:47:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03214 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:42:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca160.vthokies.net [206.153.172.160]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA18660 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:30:45 -0500 Message-ID: <005d01bf5612$afb2e480$beac99ce@4l43e> From: "gardner" To: Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:48:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2842 Greg Willis wrote: > It would be helpful if someone out there in BDLand would do a complete > academic history of the creation and use of the term "BIODYNAMIC" so > that we could present it to the Patent and Trademark Office in an effort > to get this mark canceled. Perhaps Malcolm Gardner would be up to the > task since he seems to be the most academically credentialed man in U.S. > biodynamics today. Let me say immediately that I am certainly *not* "the most academically credentialed man in U.S. biodynamics today." For various reasons I did not complete my Ph.D. work (in botany), but I often consider this to be an advantage because I want people to *think* about anything I say, rather than accept it simply because I might have academic credentials. Credentials are sometimes convenient, but in my experience they have little or no correlation with knowledge or truth. In other words, in my life I have not been particularly concerned about getting "certified" by any institution--which brings me to the issue at hand. Not being a grower myself, I have paid scant attention to this "trademark" issue in the past, but I see now that I should, for it does appear that it is about to paralyze the biodynamic movement in America, if it has not done so already. I offer the following remarks, therefore, in the hopes of helping clarify the issue and ultimately bringing it to a peaceful resolution. Everyone should understand that the term 'Bio-Dynamic' is simply an (abbreviated) translation of the German term 'biologisch-dynamisch' (that is where that silly hyphen comes from!), which was adopted around 1930, i.e., after Steiner's death and not at his suggestion. (Actually, the word was the result of a compromise between those who wanted 'biologisch'--which in German is used like the English word 'organic'--and those who wanted to emphasize the non-material, "dynamic" aspects [info from Almar von Wistinghausen's book, "Erinnerungen an den Anfang der biologisch-dynamischen Wirtschaftsweise," Darmstadt 1982].) In England the term 'Bio-Dynamic' was in use at least by 1935, when a journal was founded called "The Bio-Dynamic Method of Agriculture" (personal communication from Alan Brockman in England). Apparently not everyone in England approved of this name, as evidenced by the remarks in the Kolisko's "Agriculture of Tomorrow," which Greg has already quoted. (This book was *begun* in 1939, but could not actually be published until after the war, in 1946.) In America the term 'Bio-Dynamic' was certainly in use by January 1938, when the current BDA was first organized as "The Association for Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening." I am not aware of any effort in those early years to trademark the word 'Bio-Dynamic' (or 'biologisch-dynamisch'), although there was the thought of *patenting* the manufacture of the biodynamic preparations. Already in 1925, Count Keyserlingk wanted to patent the biodynamic preparations in order to protect them and to produce an income stream that would support the research at the Goetheanum in Dornach. This, however, did not come to pass because other people felt--perhaps naively--that the manufacturing process could be protected simply through secrecy and that preparations should not be sold but only given away. What was trademarked (in Germany already in 1932) was the word 'Demeter'. In the United States, the Demeter Association (DA) came into existence in the early 1980's and presumably registered its name (and also the term 'Biodyn') at about the same time (see "Biodynamics" #141). I know that trademark issues were at least of some concern in the early days of the U.S. BDA because I have a copy of a letter (dated Oct. 19, 1941) from the first president of the BDA, Ora F. Gardner (my grandfather), addressed to Ehrenfried Pfeiffer, in which this subject is mentioned. But I am not aware of any further effort on the part of the U.S. BDA to register or protect the term 'biodynamic' until around 1994, when little "registered" symbols began appearing in "Biodynamics" #191 after every use of the word 'biodynamic'. In the May/June 1995 issue (#199), a small notice on page 27 announced that "The word 'Biodynamic' is a legally registered named[sic] owned by the Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Association, Inc." After the March/April 1997 issue (#210), a similar statement began appearing inside the front cover of the magazine, until it disappeared without explanation after the May/June 1998 issue (#218), along with all the little registered symbols. In the Nov./Dec. 1995 issue (#202) there was a report by Christoph Altemueller saying that in Canada they were applying to register 'Bio-Dynamic' as a certification mark. A report on the history of Demeter in the UK in 1997 ("Star and Furrow #88), made no mention of trademarking the word 'biodynamic'. In sum, I do not recall ever seeing any attempt to trademark the term 'biodynamic' (or 'Bio-Dynamic') other than in the United States and Canada, where the efforts seem to be relatively recent. As mentioned, I have not paid much attention to this issue over the years, so the above information is probably quite incomplete. Nevertheless, I am left with the following questions, which I will state here in the hope that someone else can help complete the picture: 1) Why was there this "on again, off again" pattern of using the registered symbols in the magazine "Biodynamics"? Why was this not explained in the magazine--or did I simply miss the explanation? 2) Why did the BDA declare in 1995 that it owned the name 'biodynamic', but now the DA says that it owns the "certification mark BIODYNAMIC"? Was it transferred, or are we talking about two different things? 3) What motivated the U.S. BDA and/or the DA in recent years to try to trademark the term 'biodynamic'? Why was the trademark 'Demeter' (and/or 'Biodyn') not sufficient to distinguish Demeter certified biodynamic products? In addition to the foregoing review, I will now also summarize my understanding of the present situation--so that others may again correct and supplement this picture if necessary. Because no one from the 1930's to the 1980's went to the trouble of registering the word 'biodynamic' (and defending it in the meantime), the legal question now seems to be whether during this period the word 'biodynamic' was used broadly and thus became a generic term, or whether it was used narrowly and therefore still qualified as a "common law trademark", i.e., as an unregistered trademark. Apparently the DA has succeeded this year in convincing the Patent and Trademark Office that there is a prima facie case for a narrow definition, but this decision may also be reversed during the five-year challenge period. Greg says he and probably others will do this, but in the meantime he has also applied for a trademark on the phrase 'BD Preps'. He says he has done this in order to "ferret out the truth" and "bring this thing to a head." What we have here, it seems to me, is a reciprocal hostage-taking situation: the DA has seized the word 'biodynamic' (in addition to the word 'Demeter'), and Greg, who feels robbed of a word that had been allowed to circulate freely for more than half a century, has retaliated by seizing the phrase 'BD preps'. These actions remind me of the USDA's attempt not so long ago to hijack the word 'organic'. All of these unfriendly things have been done in the name of protecting consumers from fraud and deception. But these good intentions are paving the road to hell, the hell of endless litigation. Whenever a noble end is used to justify coercive means, it seems that the noble end is ultimately lost as well. In my opinion, in the long run the most ethical and effective method of protecting consumers is to *empower* them with real information. This enables them to make their *own* informed decisions about what they wish to purchase instead of being dependent on a third party certifier's judgment about what is or is not "biodynamic." Instead of reducing everything down to a single, uniform trademark, the effort should be to *expand* the amount of information available to consumers and to simply enforce the truth in labelling laws that are already on the books. I don't see why the DA needs more than the name 'Demeter' (and 'Biodyn'), but if so, Hugh Lovel's suggestion that they pursue trademarking the phrase 'Demeter Certified Biodynamic' seems quite reasonable. Similarly, Greg could trademark the phrase 'Agri-Synthesis Certified Biodynamic', and so on. Instead of just one biodynamic flavor, there would then be many. Instead of promoting uniformity, this would allow individuality to flourish, which would actually be much more in keeping with the ideals of democracy and of (Steiner's) biodynamics. I don't condone hostage-taking, but I think Greg may be right about the DA (or the BDA?) having opened a Pandora's box with their attempt to trademark the term 'biodynamic' at this late date, i.e., after it has arguably become a generic term. If Greg is correct about the problem of selective enforcement, then it seems that the DA has indeed embarked on a course of bankruptcy and bad publicity that will affect not only itself but also its certified farms and possibly the whole biodynamic movement. And even if he is not correct, even one lawsuit will still be expensive and generate bad feelings and bad publicity and further distract everyone from their real tasks. Does anyone seriously doubt this? Can cooler heads prevail here? Can egos be set aside for the welfare of the movement as a whole? Can we set a new tone for the new millennium? At the moment, the suggestion that the DA proceed to place the term 'biodynamic' in the public domain, actually seems like the best way to defuse this situation (it would eliminate any need to defend it and also protect it from ever being usurped by an entity such as Monsanto.) Can the DA consider this seriously? Greg, of course, would have to do the same thing with the phrase 'BD preps'. Then perhaps we could all get back to our real task of working together to understand and practice biodynamics. --Malcolm Gardner From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 13:11:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12559 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:11:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05049; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:06:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.65]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04824 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:03:58 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.0.b3df5364 (3704) for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:08:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.b3df5364.25a23f8e@aol.com> Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:08:14 EST Subject: Biodynamic and Organic Terms To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2843 I have mentioned Biodynamic agriculture to a number of people over the last couple of months and virtually ALL have never heard of it. I usually explain it as advanced form of organic and that gets at least some recognition. That also points out a problem. The organic movement didn't get started until after WWII but BD was started some years earlier and reached the US about 1938, I believe. Apparently Rodale has done a MUCH better job of marketing organic than has the BDA of marketing (and that is the correct word) biodynamic. The bottom line is that people in general have a concept of organic but don't have a clue about biodynamic. Dan L From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 13:35:34 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12947 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:35:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07152; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06828 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:26:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.19] (r-66.154.alltel.net [166.102.66.154]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id MAA28239 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:31:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <005d01bf5612$afb2e480$beac99ce@4l43e> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:34:22 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2844 Dear Malcolm, As usual, a great post. It helps tremendously to shed light on things. So far as I can see the prevailing heads are cool enough. Now the issue has been raised and the discussion entered into, no doubt we will see the most intensive discussion of what biodynamic really means. No one ever has seen such a discussion I'll bet. It will be well worth the price of admission and probably deserves publication as a book. List readers may want to print the more important posts in this series for their individual perusal. Sincerely, Hugh Lovel > In addition to the foregoing review, I will now also summarize my >understanding of the present situation--so that others may again correct and >supplement this picture if necessary. > Because no one from the 1930's to the 1980's went to the trouble of >registering the word 'biodynamic' (and defending it in the meantime), the >legal question now seems to be whether during this period the word >'biodynamic' was used broadly and thus became a generic term, or whether it >was used narrowly and therefore still qualified as a "common law trademark", >i.e., as an unregistered trademark. Apparently the DA has succeeded this >year in convincing the Patent and Trademark Office that there is a prima >facie case for a narrow definition, but this decision may also be reversed >during the five-year challenge period. Greg says he and probably others >will do this, but in the meantime he has also applied for a trademark on the >phrase 'BD Preps'. He says he has done this in order to "ferret out the >truth" and "bring this thing to a head." > What we have here, it seems to me, is a reciprocal hostage-taking >situation: the DA has seized the word 'biodynamic' (in addition to the word >'Demeter'), and Greg, who feels robbed of a word that had been allowed to >circulate freely for more than half a century, has retaliated by seizing the >phrase 'BD preps'. These actions remind me of the USDA's attempt not so >long ago to hijack the word 'organic'. All of these unfriendly things have >been done in the name of protecting consumers from fraud and deception. But >these good intentions are paving the road to hell, the hell of endless >litigation. Whenever a noble end is used to justify coercive means, it >seems that the noble end is ultimately lost as well. > In my opinion, in the long run the most ethical and effective method of >protecting consumers is to *empower* them with real information. This >enables them to make their *own* informed decisions about what they wish to >purchase instead of being dependent on a third party certifier's judgment >about what is or is not "biodynamic." Instead of reducing everything down >to a single, uniform trademark, the effort should be to *expand* the amount >of information available to consumers and to simply enforce the truth in >labelling laws that are already on the books. I don't see why the DA needs >more than the name 'Demeter' (and 'Biodyn'), but if so, Hugh Lovel's >suggestion that they pursue trademarking the phrase 'Demeter Certified >Biodynamic' seems quite reasonable. Similarly, Greg could trademark the >phrase 'Agri-Synthesis Certified Biodynamic', and so on. Instead of just >one biodynamic flavor, there would then be many. Instead of promoting >uniformity, this would allow individuality to flourish, which would actually >be much more in keeping with the ideals of democracy and of (Steiner's) >biodynamics. > I don't condone hostage-taking, but I think Greg may be right about the >DA (or the BDA?) having opened a Pandora's box with their attempt to >trademark the term 'biodynamic' at this late date, i.e., after it has >arguably become a generic term. If Greg is correct about the problem of >selective enforcement, then it seems that the DA has indeed embarked on a >course of bankruptcy and bad publicity that will affect not only itself but >also its certified farms and possibly the whole biodynamic movement. And >even if he is not correct, even one lawsuit will still be expensive and >generate bad feelings and bad publicity and further distract everyone from >their real tasks. Does anyone seriously doubt this? > Can cooler heads prevail here? Can egos be set aside for the >welfare of the movement as a whole? Can we set a new tone for the new >millennium? At the moment, the suggestion that the DA proceed to place the >term 'biodynamic' in the public domain, actually seems like the best way to >defuse this situation (it would eliminate any need to defend it and also >protect it from ever being usurped by an entity such as Monsanto.) Can the >DA consider this seriously? Greg, of course, would have to do the same >thing with the phrase 'BD preps'. Then perhaps we could all get back to our >real task of working together to understand and practice biodynamics. > >--Malcolm Gardner From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 14:19:47 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13535 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:19:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10833; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:12:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10439 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:08:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 63.17.183.178 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:12:38 -0800 Message-ID: <001901bf561f$8d845c60$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark FACTS Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:20:08 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2845 Hugh writes:... Hugh, I am trying to understand your position. And I certainly believe that our American BDA could use some enlivening, but military strategy? This is way over the top, Hugh. You are loosing your perspective. Demeter is not a private organization! Nor does it use the trademark as you suggest. (From the Demeter web-site). It is NOT PRIVATE. It is a non-profit, with a Board of Directors and accountable as such to the State and Federal Govt. - and most of all to all of us who benefit from their work. If it wasnt for the BDA's of the world and the Demeter's of the world you would never have heard about biodynamics in the first place. Do they need re-enlivening? Sure. I'll be the first to say that. But military style strategy and tactics, law-suits, legal threats are the last thing we need. This is completely rediculous. Calling Demeter's use of the trademark is a complete distortion of the truth. Now, brother Hugh, I believe that there is much to be done to improve biodynamics in America and in the world, much to be done to enliven our organizations. But distortion of the truth and military style tactics is the most absurd and un-spiritual stuff I have ever heard of in my entire involvement with biodynamics. What is wrong with this picture? You speak of the name biodynamic as a resource - whose resource is it? Yours? Gregs? No, all of ours. Demeter may not be perfect, but from what I can see it has caused NO ONE to not use the name biodynamic. I have no facts to the contrary - do you??? What facts, hard, clear, facts do you have - or does anyone have - that Demeter has misused its protective responsibilities of the name biodynamic in the context of agriculture???? Facts talk - Respectfully, Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 14:23:01 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13597 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:23:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11308; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net (spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net [207.108.48.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10788 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:12:16 -0500 (EST) From: d2allen@uswest.net Received: (qmail 5427 invoked by alias); 3 Jan 2000 19:17:02 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-bdnow@envirolink.org@fixme Received: (qmail 5411 invoked by uid 0); 3 Jan 2000 19:17:01 -0000 Received: from dialupb116.spkn.uswest.net (HELO pop.spkn.uswest.net) (207.225.41.116) by spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net with SMTP; 3 Jan 2000 19:17:01 -0000 Message-ID: <3870F387.7005CACE@pop.spkn.uswest.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 11:07:51 -0800 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {U S WEST.net} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Intellectual Property References: <386FB33D.7C64@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2846 Monday, 3 January, 2000 Greetings fellow subscribers to bdnow, I recently joined this forum in order to learn more about biodynamic theory and practice. Instead, I've stumbled into yet another debate about the intrusion of the marketplace into the food growing/life sustenance arena. Intellectual property rights have expanded to include, among many things, genetic materials; and now this wonderful biodynamic idea that links the material with the spiritual is being seized upon, because of.....I'm not sure. Would the actors in this drama be willing to state their intentions in a few sentences or less? I'd be curious to know. In spite of the lengthy postings, it is not clear to be why certain people and/or organizations are obtaining patents having to do with biodynamic materials and techniques. Normally, this is done for economic gain. I view this issue as yet another example of the consumer culture separating people from the natural world, while at the same time exploiting that separation. Is it possible that everything will one day will be reduced to its economic value? And I mean everything. What a depressing thought. A very helpful book to be reading at this time is: When Corporations Rule the World, by David C. Korten (1995 Kumarian Press). Here a brief quote that intellectual property: "....Every contemporary human invention necessarily builds on the common heritage of human knowledge accumulated over thousands of years and countless generations. This is the information commons of the species. The justifiable purpose of intellectual property right protection is to provide incentives for research and creative contribution, not to create protected information monopolies." (Korten, p.316-317). Thank you all for an interesting forum. I look forward to other biodynamic topics in addition to the patenting problem. Sincerely, Deidre From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 18:12:50 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17579 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:12:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA01342; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:04:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.mcn.org (mail.mcn.org [204.189.12.25]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27143 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:13:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from 63.193.12.49 (ha-1e-men-p1-m13.mcn.org [63.193.12.49]) by mail.mcn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA08167 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:18:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3870B24B.E2B@mcn.org> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 14:29:31 +0000 From: Kate Clarke Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Foxglove Farm (707) 937-4116 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Intellectual Property References: <386FB33D.7C64@xtra.co.nz> <3870F387.7005CACE@pop.spkn.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2847 Dear Deidre, I consider your thoughts to be the beginning of new ways of percieving this group, ( loosely designed) of BD travelers. My own journey, as a woman who is the Farmer has much to do with bypassing the establishment in order to dive through alot of the intellectual dogma and get the work done. If we waste too much time on who owns what the world will starve and the magic that Biodynamics offers us all will be sold to the higest bidders, not unlike the prices of organic produce at the local co-op. The earth offers up all the solutions and Steiner, Jevons, Chadwick, etc. spent their lives finding these solutions. Naturally, with all the changes we are putting the earth through modifications and progressive changes can be observed by all of us dedicated to the practice of sustainable farming, in which I consider BD to be the highest form. It is true that many people have not heard of Biodynamics and a simple explaination I found that works here in Northern California is to say Biodynamics is homeopathy for the earth. I would encourage this group to try to reach out and become practically helpfull to one another. I did indeed get certification, at great expense, and yet felt it was the least helpfull of all the ways of knowing about BD. I am hopefull that more regional certification and contact with other BD farmers will create more of a rele vant information network. It is still very much a good old boy's club out there but one can only hopesome of the boys will stop their pissing contests and get down to work. Best reguards to all in the New Year.Kate Clark Foxglove Farm/ Earth touching Institute PO 143 Comptche, Ca. 95427 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 18:12:51 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17585 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA01497; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:06:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (web1.vphos.net [207.102.129.200]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA29216 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:39:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.87]) by web1.vphos.net ; Mon, 03 Jan 2000 14:44:32 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01bf563c$1d920ac0$57cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <386FB33D.7C64@xtra.co.nz> <3870F387.7005CACE@pop.spkn.uswest.net> Subject: Follow the Money [was: Intellectual Property] Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 15:43:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2848 Ah Deidre: It takes a newbie to bring fresh perspective. You write <<, it is not clear to be why certain people and/or organizations are obtaining patents having to do with biodynamic materials and techniques. Normally, this is done for economic gain.>> Well, of course. Let us follow the money. When I ascribe in my mind terms like :BDthen" and "fossilized" and "old paradigm" to the BD powers that be in North America, that is, The Biodynamic Association, Demeter, Inc., and their apologists on the List, it is to note with dismay the institutionalization of biodynamics, the bureaucratization of it. First the Vision...then the Missions...then the Hierophants...then the Corporations...then sclerosis. We are told that BDA/Demeter are non-profit organizations, with boards of directors and layers of administration...however thin and poorly resourced or understaffed...doing yeomans work toward an agreed-upon sacred mission. Well, praise be! As if claiming the high ground were excuse for not having had a new idea in 40 years. The creaky and discredited method of operation here is the same as in any organization/movement/bureaucracy/government ...self-empowerment, self-perpetuation as a stable entity, growth at whatever price. The last three funding appeals I had from BDA/Demeter were, more or less in order: 1) Appeal for donations to defray legal expenses associated with prosecuting the copyright on the term Biodynamic (!) 2) Appeal for donations to offset the cost of a seed cleaning machine; [why is a tax exempt organization raising funds for a seed initiative in direct competition with individual Biodynamic growers who grow seeds for a living]? 3) Appeal for donations in general...end of the tax year, blah-blah, meeting challenges. We read in the latest issue of the journal BIODYNAMICS that #3 priority for the next few years of the Association is "Fundraising and Development". Follow the money...like the Biodynamic Assocation Executive Office followed the scent of wine grapes to San Francisco. Follow the money. If Demeter certification can command a premium of 50 percent to 300 percent on your rutabaga and yogurt...Demeter stands to rake off huge sums from the producer, up front, before any marketing under the copyright names "Demeter Certified" or "Biodynamic." Demeter could expand from a parttime farmhouse office to suites in a high rise office building. On the backs of the farmers. The organization exists FIRST to perpetuate itself. In the runup to the new millenium, the past generation or two, this has meant cancerous growth rates for governments and corporations, leading to abuses like Monsanto's and the United Appeal guy with his learjets and CEO style salary. Many of us individuals are aware that this trend has run inself out and no longer makes sense. The irony is most of the people who make up these organizations, in their other lives as gardeners and farmers, know that it no longer makes sense. These people--with but one or two exceptions, men--BDA Board members like Hugh Courtney and Ernie Harvey-- are horney-handed sons of toil, businessmen, thinkers, and perhaps Anthroposophists. They are not effete, lardassed executive types or bureaucrats. Good people propping up a dinosaur organization. In the damning with faint praise department, I'll end with a praisful look at BIODYNAMICS, the sole reason I would keep BDA existing. The series of editors I have known there--Grotzke, Morrow, Yeager, Balliett, Bumbarger--are real people operating in an antiquated organization. Tear down the rest of the BDA and replace it with schizmatic organizations [which in their own time will take on all the characteristics of bloated bureaucracies]...but leave me BIODYNAMICS, the journal. Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 12:07 PM Subject: Re: Intellectual Property > Monday, 3 January, 2000 > > Greetings fellow subscribers to bdnow, > > I recently joined this forum in order to learn more about biodynamic theory and > practice. Instead, I've stumbled into yet another debate about the intrusion of > the marketplace into the food growing/life sustenance arena. Intellectual > property rights have expanded to include, among many things, genetic materials; > and now this wonderful biodynamic idea that links the material with the > spiritual is being seized upon, because of.....I'm not sure. > > Would the actors in this drama be willing to state their intentions in a few > sentences or less? I'd be curious to know. In spite of the lengthy postings, it > is not clear to be why certain people and/or organizations are obtaining patents > having to do with biodynamic materials and techniques. Normally, this is done for > economic gain. > > I view this issue as yet another example of the consumer culture separating > people from the natural world, while at the same time exploiting that separation. > Is it possible that everything will one day will be reduced to its economic > value? And I mean everything. What a depressing thought. > > A very helpful book to be reading at this time is: When Corporations Rule the > World, by David C. Korten (1995 Kumarian Press). Here a brief quote that > intellectual property: "....Every contemporary human invention necessarily > builds on the common heritage of human knowledge accumulated over thousands of > years and countless generations. This is the information commons of the species. > The justifiable purpose of intellectual property right protection is to provide > incentives for research and creative contribution, not to create protected > information monopolies." (Korten, p.316-317). > > Thank you all for an interesting forum. I look forward to other biodynamic topics > in addition to the patenting problem. > > Sincerely, > > Deidre > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 18:14:39 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17612 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:14:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA01673; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:07:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00558 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:00:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.4] (du-148-233-78-4.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNS0020480ER8@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:02:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 17:03:49 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <005501bf55cc$b63cf200$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id SAA00560 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2849 Dear Hugh, Andrew, Allan, Greg, Manfred ..... I am a bit confused here and have been confused ever since BD-l became BD-Now. I see the point Hugh L. and Greg W. are trying to make in making public domain the name Biodynamics in order to promote the expansion of BD in the world and in our food supply. But I also see the need to keep Steiner's teachings in a unpolluted condition, and therefore I see the need for an orthodox BDA and a Demeter certification program using trademarks and other legal business formats. Ideally I would like to see a democratic but objective BD Association interested in expanding the orthodox teachings as well as interested in breaking new ground by supporting innovative research and operations. (I strongly believe orthodoxy and innovation have their own merits and should coexist within an operational and goal oriented organizational framework) Since May 1, 1998, BD-Now IMO has been essentially the voice of those doing innovative work and rather opposed to orthodoxy such as Glen, Hugh and Greg. Sometimes we hear leveled comments from people somehow in agreement with the US BDA such as Andrew and Bruce. When we are lucky (and I mean this), we get to hear the mature insights from people like Jim and Mr. Gardner, but it has being a while since we get the official posture from the BDAA and DA administrators. As a norm and in order to have an opinion of my own, I do like to hear from both sides of an argument, otherwise the probability of having a biased information and therefore forming a biased opinion of things is very high. For those not aware of what happened on May 1, 1998, please check bellow a post by Allan Balliet entitled "Changes to this BD list". Such post IMO marked the breaking off of friendly relationships between the BDAA and Allan Balliet and therefore BD-Now. Allan on May 1,1998 wrote: ********************************** >Dear Friend, >The bd email list that you are subscribed to is no longer associated with >the Biodynamic Association. >The mission of this list remains the same: to provide an iterative resource >for both reliable and developing information about practice and theory of >all aspects of Rudolf Steiner's spiritual approach to agriculture. >The name of the list has been changed to "BD Now!" to more accurately >represent the focus of this independent list. >If you are uncomfortable being a member of a bd list which has cast aside >the shroud of orthodoxy, a list that does not believe a state of >clairvoyance can be achieved by staring down your nose at the good works of >others, please unsubscribe from this list by following the instructions at >the bottom of this email. >Hopefully, you will stay subscribed and watch as independence breathes new >life into the wonderful dialogue we've been having on this list. >Please allow me until Monday before you ask for a detailed explanation of >how 'things' reached this point. ******************************** To the best of my knowledge the detailed explanation that Allan offered for "next Monday", never arrived and therefore I have only being able to partially know about the causes of the conflict from the random and sometimes subtle attacks that from time to time emerge in this list. (Btw Allan, I would still like to know the detailed explanation). Biodynamic Agriculture is such a small movement in the world that IMHO it is stupid to be fighting among us. We all know of its value and its potential, why can't we work together for the improvement of its institutions worldwide with the aim of expanding its benefits ?. Ferdinand (also gone from BD-Now) once mentioned that this fighting was a reflection of the times and associated with ahrimanic influences affecting human beings. I believe Ferdy is and was correct, but I also believe we should oppose this forces. The images I have seen on this list about the BDA in America seems to indicate a situation in which the BDFGA (BDA) is in the hands of greedy bureaucrats only interested in keeping their jobs and in promoting their business interests. I personally do not think this is the whole story; I have being treated very nicely in the BDAA and in JPI, but I know human nature and therefore suspect that some of this picture might be true. On the other hand, I have received the benefits of the info that Hugh, Greg and many other have given me generously and in good nature over the years in BD-l and BD-Now. But can not understand and I am suspicious of why someone would get into a legal confrontation expending thousands without expecting monetary and/or power returns from their actions. I will like to second Mr. Gardner proposal: >Can cooler heads prevail here? Can egos be set aside for the >welfare of the movement as a whole? Can we set a new tone for the new >millennium? About a year and a half ago Steve Moore, the head of the BDAA at the time, decided not to participate in BD-Now claiming it was a hostile environment. Ever since I have not seen any official presence of the BDAA on the list, curiously enough neither have I seen the presence of BDA administrative people from anywhere else in the world exempt Australia. There has being a number of attempts to provide an alternative electronic discussion forum to BD-Now. The BDAA has a forum in their web site, so does the Moore Ranch web site, and Pam DeTray started a chat room some time ago. IMHO this projects failed because of lack of participants and interests. BD-Now is a strong and dynamic forum because we all want to make it that way and because we can find here open discussions and alternative (some times conflicting) view points which enrich and expand our comprehension of the topic. (obviously also because of Allan's efforts and tolerance), but it would be also very productive to be able to have the official/orthodox positions as well. Although I know that some Anthroposophists might consider computer related technology Ahrimanic, it would be short from blindness to deny the potential and value of the internet in general and of BD-Now in particular for promoting and expanding BD. Sure it has its risks, but this are IMO overwhelmed by its merits. I would like to propose a reunification, a situation in which BD-Now returns to be supported by the BDA's of America and elsewhere, but remaining open to all respectfully expressed opinions. I would like to see a BDA vs "The bad boys" situation grow into a mature win-win situation. I would like to enjoy the possibility of asking and knowing the opinion of people like Steve Moore, Alan York, Peter Proctor, Gunther Hawk, Hugh Courtney, Ferdinand, etc., some of whom at one point participated in the BD-l. I would like to know the reasons behind the May 1, 1998 post and would like for us to find a way to heal the differences that have being pesting the BD enthusiasts for a number of years. What do you think Allan?, is it possible?, are you open to the possibility?. What do think Andrew?, would you like to make an invitation within the BDA to heal things up ?. What do you think Mr. Gardner ?, I value your opinion. Happy NEW Year to All ! Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 20:14:57 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA19150 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:14:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12083; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from acc.haverford.edu (acc.haverford.edu [165.82.1.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA11528 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [165.82.19.116] (s116.magill.haverford.edu [165.82.19.116]) by acc.haverford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA24777 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:02:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:07:14 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Bruce Bumbarger Subject: Hugh Courtney's recommendations, &c Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2850 I sent this along a while ago, but it seems to have become a casualty in the "trademark wars." I've put up Hugh Courtney's planting, ashing and sequential spraying recommendations for Jan/Feb/March, as well as an updated calendar and job/internships posting on the BDA website at . Hope they're helpful. Bruce (Just another dinosaur, slogging along trying to do his job and help out the cause.) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 20:53:17 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA19628 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:53:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15129; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:47:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from cobalt3-he.global.net.uk (cobalt3-he.global.net.uk [195.147.246.163]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA14658 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:41:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from pf0s06a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.230.241] helo=compaq) by cobalt3-he.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 125J1m-0007jf-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:44:50 -0800 Message-ID: <38714F55.4767@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 01:39:33 +0000 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Hugh Courtney's recommendations, &c References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2851 Bruce Bumbarger wrote: > > I sent this along a while ago, but it seems to have become a casualty in > the "trademark wars." I've put up Hugh Courtney's planting, ashing and > sequential spraying recommendations for Jan/Feb/March, as well as an > updated calendar and job/internships posting on the BDA website at > . Hope they're helpful. > > Bruce (Just another dinosaur, slogging along trying to do his job and help > out the cause.) Dear Bruce and you wonderful farmers out there The dinosaurs are the Corporations Now doing their best To trample on the workers Who never think to rest That's us,we are the soup Primeval possibly but we, Think aloud about the "others" And that is, pure B.D What we have now is wonderful And what you all do, is great As a Guardian of the Planet You got my respect mate! Rex -- ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 21:32:45 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20099 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 21:32:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19686; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 21:23:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA19321 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 21:21:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from micron - 63.20.29.165 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:25:23 -0800 Message-ID: <000901bf565b$1bff6bc0$a51d143f@micron> From: "Wells" To: References: <005d01bf5612$afb2e480$beac99ce@4l43e> Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:26:28 -0800 Organization: Microsoft Corporation X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2852 Thanks for your great input !!! ----- Original Message ----- From: gardner To: Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 9:48 AM Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark > Greg Willis wrote: > > > It would be helpful if someone out there in BDLand would do a complete > > academic history of the creation and use of the term "BIODYNAMIC" so > > that we could present it to the Patent and Trademark Office in an effort > > to get this mark canceled. Perhaps Malcolm Gardner would be up to the > > task since he seems to be the most academically credentialed man in U.S. > > biodynamics today. > > Let me say immediately that I am certainly *not* "the most academically > credentialed man in U.S. biodynamics today." For various reasons I did not > complete my Ph.D. work (in botany), but I often consider this to be an > advantage because I want people to *think* about anything I say, rather than > accept it simply because I might have academic credentials. Credentials are > sometimes convenient, but in my experience they have little or no > correlation with knowledge or truth. In other words, in my life I have not > been particularly concerned about getting "certified" by any > institution--which brings me to the issue at hand. > Not being a grower myself, I have paid scant attention to this > "trademark" issue in the past, but I see now that I should, for it does > appear that it is about to paralyze the biodynamic movement in America, if > it has not done so already. I offer the following remarks, therefore, in > the hopes of helping clarify the issue and ultimately bringing it to a > peaceful resolution. > > Everyone should understand that the term 'Bio-Dynamic' is simply an > (abbreviated) translation of the German term 'biologisch-dynamisch' (that is > where that silly hyphen comes from!), which was adopted around 1930, i.e., > after Steiner's death and not at his suggestion. (Actually, the word was > the result of a compromise between those who wanted 'biologisch'--which in > German is used like the English word 'organic'--and those who wanted to > emphasize the non-material, "dynamic" aspects [info from Almar von > Wistinghausen's book, "Erinnerungen an den Anfang der biologisch-dynamischen > Wirtschaftsweise," Darmstadt 1982].) In England the term 'Bio-Dynamic' was > in use at least by 1935, when a journal was founded called "The Bio-Dynamic > Method of Agriculture" (personal communication from Alan Brockman in > England). Apparently not everyone in England approved of this name, as > evidenced by the remarks in the Kolisko's "Agriculture of Tomorrow," which > Greg has already quoted. (This book was *begun* in 1939, but could not > actually be published until after the war, in 1946.) In America the term > 'Bio-Dynamic' was certainly in use by January 1938, when the current BDA was > first organized as "The Association for Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening." > I am not aware of any effort in those early years to trademark the word > 'Bio-Dynamic' (or 'biologisch-dynamisch'), although there was the thought of > *patenting* the manufacture of the biodynamic preparations. Already in > 1925, Count Keyserlingk wanted to patent the biodynamic preparations in > order to protect them and to produce an income stream that would support the > research at the Goetheanum in Dornach. This, however, did not come to pass > because other people felt--perhaps naively--that the manufacturing process > could be protected simply through secrecy and that preparations should not > be sold but only given away. > What was trademarked (in Germany already in 1932) was the word > 'Demeter'. In the United States, the Demeter Association (DA) came into > existence in the early 1980's and presumably registered its name (and also > the term 'Biodyn') at about the same time (see "Biodynamics" #141). I know > that trademark issues were at least of some concern in the early days of the > U.S. BDA because I have a copy of a letter (dated Oct. 19, 1941) from the > first president of the BDA, Ora F. Gardner (my grandfather), addressed to > Ehrenfried Pfeiffer, in which this subject is mentioned. But I am not aware > of any further effort on the part of the U.S. BDA to register or protect the > term 'biodynamic' until around 1994, when little "registered" symbols began > appearing in "Biodynamics" #191 after every use of the word 'biodynamic'. > In the May/June 1995 issue (#199), a small notice on page 27 announced that > "The word 'Biodynamic' is a legally registered named[sic] owned by the > Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Association, Inc." After the March/April > 1997 issue (#210), a similar statement began appearing inside the front > cover of the magazine, until it disappeared without explanation after the > May/June 1998 issue (#218), along with all the little registered symbols. > In the Nov./Dec. 1995 issue (#202) there was a report by Christoph > Altemueller saying that in Canada they were applying to register > 'Bio-Dynamic' as a certification mark. A report on the history of Demeter > in the UK in 1997 ("Star and Furrow #88), made no mention of trademarking > the word 'biodynamic'. > In sum, I do not recall ever seeing any attempt to trademark the term > 'biodynamic' (or 'Bio-Dynamic') other than in the United States and Canada, > where the efforts seem to be relatively recent. As mentioned, I have not > paid much attention to this issue over the years, so the above information > is probably quite incomplete. Nevertheless, I am left with the following > questions, which I will state here in the hope that someone else can help > complete the picture: > 1) Why was there this "on again, off again" pattern of using the > registered symbols in the magazine "Biodynamics"? Why was this not > explained in the magazine--or did I simply miss the explanation? > 2) Why did the BDA declare in 1995 that it owned the name 'biodynamic', > but now the DA says that it owns the "certification mark BIODYNAMIC"? > Was it transferred, or are we talking about two different things? > 3) What motivated the U.S. BDA and/or the DA in recent years to try to > trademark the term 'biodynamic'? Why was the trademark 'Demeter' (and/or > 'Biodyn') not sufficient to distinguish Demeter certified biodynamic > products? > > In addition to the foregoing review, I will now also summarize my > understanding of the present situation--so that others may again correct and > supplement this picture if necessary. > Because no one from the 1930's to the 1980's went to the trouble of > registering the word 'biodynamic' (and defending it in the meantime), the > legal question now seems to be whether during this period the word > 'biodynamic' was used broadly and thus became a generic term, or whether it > was used narrowly and therefore still qualified as a "common law trademark", > i.e., as an unregistered trademark. Apparently the DA has succeeded this > year in convincing the Patent and Trademark Office that there is a prima > facie case for a narrow definition, but this decision may also be reversed > during the five-year challenge period. Greg says he and probably others > will do this, but in the meantime he has also applied for a trademark on the > phrase 'BD Preps'. He says he has done this in order to "ferret out the > truth" and "bring this thing to a head." > What we have here, it seems to me, is a reciprocal hostage-taking > situation: the DA has seized the word 'biodynamic' (in addition to the word > 'Demeter'), and Greg, who feels robbed of a word that had been allowed to > circulate freely for more than half a century, has retaliated by seizing the > phrase 'BD preps'. These actions remind me of the USDA's attempt not so > long ago to hijack the word 'organic'. All of these unfriendly things have > been done in the name of protecting consumers from fraud and deception. But > these good intentions are paving the road to hell, the hell of endless > litigation. Whenever a noble end is used to justify coercive means, it > seems that the noble end is ultimately lost as well. > In my opinion, in the long run the most ethical and effective method of > protecting consumers is to *empower* them with real information. This > enables them to make their *own* informed decisions about what they wish to > purchase instead of being dependent on a third party certifier's judgment > about what is or is not "biodynamic." Instead of reducing everything down > to a single, uniform trademark, the effort should be to *expand* the amount > of information available to consumers and to simply enforce the truth in > labelling laws that are already on the books. I don't see why the DA needs > more than the name 'Demeter' (and 'Biodyn'), but if so, Hugh Lovel's > suggestion that they pursue trademarking the phrase 'Demeter Certified > Biodynamic' seems quite reasonable. Similarly, Greg could trademark the > phrase 'Agri-Synthesis Certified Biodynamic', and so on. Instead of just > one biodynamic flavor, there would then be many. Instead of promoting > uniformity, this would allow individuality to flourish, which would actually > be much more in keeping with the ideals of democracy and of (Steiner's) > biodynamics. > I don't condone hostage-taking, but I think Greg may be right about the > DA (or the BDA?) having opened a Pandora's box with their attempt to > trademark the term 'biodynamic' at this late date, i.e., after it has > arguably become a generic term. If Greg is correct about the problem of > selective enforcement, then it seems that the DA has indeed embarked on a > course of bankruptcy and bad publicity that will affect not only itself but > also its certified farms and possibly the whole biodynamic movement. And > even if he is not correct, even one lawsuit will still be expensive and > generate bad feelings and bad publicity and further distract everyone from > their real tasks. Does anyone seriously doubt this? > Can cooler heads prevail here? Can egos be set aside for the > welfare of the movement as a whole? Can we set a new tone for the new > millennium? At the moment, the suggestion that the DA proceed to place the > term 'biodynamic' in the public domain, actually seems like the best way to > defuse this situation (it would eliminate any need to defend it and also > protect it from ever being usurped by an entity such as Monsanto.) Can the > DA consider this seriously? Greg, of course, would have to do the same > thing with the phrase 'BD preps'. Then perhaps we could all get back to our > real task of working together to understand and practice biodynamics. > > --Malcolm Gardner > > > > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 22:32:28 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20736 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:32:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25280; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:25:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24806 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:19:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([205.209.27.76]) by river.netrover.com (8.9.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA26502 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:24:05 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-From: villager@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:26:46 -0500 Message-ID: <01bf5663$87cd6840$LocalHost@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2853 Having just reread all the posts on this thread, i am awed, perhaps lovestruck, by the level of individuals' greatness behind all the seeming "opposing" perspectives which have been presented. It may be daunting to sense that in spite of this acquired and inherent greatness we may too experience the common garden variety symptom known as .... confusion. Mind you, that is a higher level of confusion!! one to another. To me, this may all be grist for the mill,... useful if it is seen for what it is: further evidence of our awakening in urgency.... in the light of whom we may recognise each other to be; namely great!....... in the humblest sense. We have this accelerated means/forum of : presenting data, calling a spade a spade, even venturing expressions of love based on shimmers of approving discernment eked out from between the lines. We should rightly negotiate this air vehicle with caution ...that it may not facilitate our demise. I really appreciate the space which is given to each other to qualify a perspective, an unwitting assumption, a premise. Yes, "facts" are useful in this context. Also having some experience in group "bio dynamics", i note frequently that issueing characterizations [usually unworthy of an identity of greatness] sets in motion frequencies which tend to make it more difficult to let :peace. This is one trap which only seems to be at odds with the posture :" I came not to bring peace, but a sword". Let all who bear these valid arms be aware of the accompanying responsibility, lest we cut the [light]-bearing members whose critical mass is essential to mobility of the whole. While any are bound, none are free. The sword as instrument of freeing, yes. Each articulant in this list brings something unique which we may never have encountered otherwise. I am so thankful to know you all to this extent. HOW MUCH MORE??....please. I think again about the dominant features of each prep in the heap, and that their greater significance is in the context of the whole. Surely we seek this, celebrate this, in each other... if not instantly, then ultimately....notwithstanding the illusion of conflict. What can be hurt, will be hurt and pass away, as it should. What/who cannot be hurt or pass away? It's a matter of identification, not delusion, and sure it takes work! There really is only love, or the evidence of the absence of it's thoughtful missive. So, in "putting the house in order" let this "means" lead to its inevitable commencement. Who else does everyone here-on-list know that is more qualified to handle this? We'll find out as we recreate the space, a safe house. I have also missed the uniqueness of other individuals' contributions. While this may be simplistically obvious, this current scenario very much parallels the general experience of all spiritually aspiring groups ,while having to live in a worldly-value world. And is it really just a matter of not ingesting sufficient bd food? What do we feed each other, on every level? Do we know what's at stake? Let it be our finest. Anyway, this was just my emphasis at this time.... a bit ethereal. ...... ..manfred palmer -----Original Message----- From: Guillermo Romero To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, January 03, 2000 6:12 PM Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark >Dear Hugh, Andrew, Allan, Greg, Manfred ..... > >I am a bit confused here and have been confused ever since BD-l became BD-Now. > >I see the point Hugh L. and Greg W. are trying to make in making public domain the name Biodynamics in order to promote the expansion of BD in the world and in our food supply. But I also see the need to keep Steiner's teachings in a unpolluted condition, and therefore I see the need for an orthodox BDA and a Demeter certification program using trademarks and other legal business formats. > >Ideally I would like to see a democratic but objective BD Association interested in expanding the orthodox teachings as well as interested in breaking new ground by supporting innovative research and operations. (I strongly believe orthodoxy and innovation have their own merits and should coexist within an operational and goal oriented organizational framework) > >Since May 1, 1998, BD-Now IMO has been essentially the voice of those doing innovative work and rather opposed to orthodoxy such as Glen, Hugh and Greg. Sometimes we hear leveled comments from people somehow in agreement with the US BDA such as Andrew and Bruce. When we are lucky (and I mean this), we get to hear the mature insights from people like Jim and Mr. Gardner, but it has being a while since we get the official posture from the BDAA and DA administrators. > >As a norm and in order to have an opinion of my own, I do like to hear from both sides of an argument, otherwise the probability of having a biased information and therefore forming a biased opinion of things is very high. > >For those not aware of what happened on May 1, 1998, please check bellow a post by Allan Balliet entitled "Changes to this BD list". Such post IMO marked the breaking off of friendly relationships between the BDAA and Allan Balliet and therefore BD-Now. > >Allan on May 1,1998 wrote: > > ********************************** >>Dear Friend, > >>The bd email list that you are subscribed to is no longer associated with >>the Biodynamic Association. > >>The mission of this list remains the same: to provide an iterative resource >>for both reliable and developing information about practice and theory of >>all aspects of Rudolf Steiner's spiritual approach to agriculture. > >>The name of the list has been changed to "BD Now!" to more accurately >>represent the focus of this independent list. > >>If you are uncomfortable being a member of a bd list which has cast aside >>the shroud of orthodoxy, a list that does not believe a state of >>clairvoyance can be achieved by staring down your nose at the good works of >>others, please unsubscribe from this list by following the instructions at >>the bottom of this email. > >>Hopefully, you will stay subscribed and watch as independence breathes new >>life into the wonderful dialogue we've been having on this list. > >>Please allow me until Monday before you ask for a detailed explanation of >>how 'things' reached this point. > > ******************************** > >To the best of my knowledge the detailed explanation that Allan offered for "next Monday", never arrived and therefore I have only being able to partially know about the causes of the conflict from the random and sometimes subtle attacks that from time to time emerge in this list. (Btw Allan, I would still like to know the detailed explanation). > >Biodynamic Agriculture is such a small movement in the world that IMHO it is stupid to be fighting among us. We all know of its value and its potential, why can't we work together for the improvement of its institutions worldwide with the aim of expanding its benefits ?. Ferdinand (also gone from BD-Now) once mentioned that this fighting was a reflection of the times and associated with ahrimanic influences affecting human beings. I believe Ferdy is and was correct, but I also believe we should oppose this forces. > >The images I have seen on this list about the BDA in America seems to indicate a situation in which the BDFGA (BDA) is in the hands of greedy bureaucrats only interested in keeping their jobs and in promoting their business interests. I personally do not think this is the whole story; I have being treated very nicely in the BDAA and in JPI, but I know human nature and therefore suspect that some of this picture might be true. On the other hand, I have received the benefits of the info that Hugh, Greg and many other have given me generously and in good nature over the years in BD-l and BD-Now. But can not understand and I am suspicious of why someone would get into a legal confrontation expending thousands without expecting monetary and/or power returns from their actions. > >I will like to second Mr. Gardner proposal: > >>Can cooler heads prevail here? Can egos be set aside for the >>welfare of the movement as a whole? Can we set a new tone for the new >>millennium? > >About a year and a half ago Steve Moore, the head of the BDAA at the time, decided not to participate in BD-Now claiming it was a hostile environment. Ever since I have not seen any official presence of the BDAA on the list, curiously enough neither have I seen the presence of BDA administrative people from anywhere else in the world exempt Australia. > >There has being a number of attempts to provide an alternative electronic discussion forum to BD-Now. The BDAA has a forum in their web site, so does the Moore Ranch web site, and Pam DeTray started a chat room some time ago. IMHO this projects failed because of lack of participants and interests. BD-Now is a strong and dynamic forum because we all want to make it that way and because we can find here open discussions and alternative (some times conflicting) view points which enrich and expand our comprehension of the topic. (obviously also because of Allan's efforts and tolerance), but it would be also very productive to be able to have the official/orthodox positions as well. > >Although I know that some Anthroposophists might consider computer related technology Ahrimanic, it would be short from blindness to deny the potential and value of the internet in general and of BD-Now in particular for promoting and expanding BD. Sure it has its risks, but this are IMO overwhelmed by its merits. > >I would like to propose a reunification, a situation in which BD-Now returns to be supported by the BDA's of America and elsewhere, but remaining open to all respectfully expressed opinions. I would like to see a BDA vs "The bad boys" situation grow into a mature win-win situation. I would like to enjoy the possibility of asking and knowing the opinion of people like Steve Moore, Alan York, Peter Proctor, Gunther Hawk, Hugh Courtney, Ferdinand, etc., some of whom at one point participated in the BD-l. I would like to know the reasons behind the May 1, 1998 post and would like for us to find a way to heal the differences that have being pesting the BD enthusiasts for a number of years. > >What do you think Allan?, is it possible?, are you open to the possibility?. What do think Andrew?, would you like to make an invitation within the BDA to heal things up ?. What do you think Mr. Gardner ?, I value your opinion. > >Happy NEW Year to All ! > > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 22:36:07 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20782 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:36:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25549; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:29:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25273 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.19] (r-66.149.alltel.net [166.102.66.149]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id VAA08499 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 21:29:52 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001901bf561f$8d845c60$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:36:20 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark FACTS Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2854 > Hugh writes:... >key resources. The word biodynamic is a very key resource, and Demeter is >using it privately.> > > >Hugh, > >I am trying to understand your position. And I certainly believe that our >American BDA could use some enlivening, but military strategy? This is way >over the top, Hugh. You are loosing your perspective. Please let's not take my metaphors too literally. I used this comparison to military strategy as a way to help others understand the situation. > >Demeter is not a private organization! Nor does it use the trademark > as you suggest.>ecological farming system and has been an assurance of quality since 1928. >Demeter Association, Inc. (the US branch) certified its first Biodynamic >farm in 1982. Its logo is registered. Demeter is a non-profit, non-tax >exempt organization.> (From the Demeter web-site). It is NOT PRIVATE. It is >a non-profit, with a Board of Directors and accountable as such to the State >and Federal Govt. - and most of all to all of us who benefit from their >work. If it wasnt for the BDA's of the world and the Demeter's of the world >you would never have heard about biodynamics in the first place. Thanks. You're right and I stand corrected. Demeter is a public not-for-profit corporation, not private corporation. However what they do is done in a way that is restricted or exclusive of me and most of the world. So they aren't using the trademark of biodynamic privately. I used the wrong word and I apologize. They are using the trademarked term biodynamic in a restricted way. They are using it exclusively. To say that they are not private is misleading at best, however. Yes, they are a public corporation. They are a not-for-profit corporation which simply means that they are prohibited from distributing the profits they make. But nothing prohibits them from making as much profit as they want to make. Also, please do not get me wrong. I am not complaining about the many good things the BDA and Demeter have done. I can think of quite a few, and you may be sure my 2000 dues to the BDA are paid up. This hasn't stopped me from being a member of the ABA (American Biodynamic Association). I might point out that it looks like the ABA is going to have me as a regular contributor to their Journal, the first issue of which is in process. The only time I recall being asked to contribute to the BDA journal was when our panel moderator, Allan Balliett, was editor. The article I contributed at that time, The Nature of Forces, is on the BD Now! website I believe. But, strange to say, I haven't been asked for anything further for the BDA journal. It looks like the ABA is going to have a whole different attitude in this regard. > >Do they need re-enlivening? Sure. I'll be the first to say that. But >military style strategy and tactics, law-suits, legal threats are the last >thing we need. This is completely rediculous. > >Calling Demeter's use of the trademark is a complete distortion of >the truth. Again, an unfortunate choice of words, though I think I'm getting my meaning across. >Now, brother Hugh, I believe that there is much to be done to >improve biodynamics in America and in the world, much to be done to enliven >our organizations. But distortion of the truth and military style tactics is >the most absurd and un-spiritual stuff I have ever heard of in my entire >involvement with biodynamics. What is wrong with this picture? > >You speak of the name biodynamic as a resource - whose resource is it? >Yours? Gregs? No, all of ours. Demeter may not be perfect, but from what I >can see it has caused NO ONE to not use the name biodynamic. I have no facts >to the contrary - do you??? What facts, hard, clear, facts do you have - or >does anyone have - that Demeter has misused its protective responsibilities >of the name biodynamic in the context of agriculture???? You seem to me to be making my points for me. I shouldn't have to be thinking militarily, I shouldn't have to be fending off either Greg Willis' or Demeter's bloodthirsty lawyers. I agree with you entirely that the name biodynamic OUGHT to belong to us all--though it does not. The term BD preps, OUGHT to belong to us all, which is why I'm going to join with Greg to trademark for the public domain. Both Hugh Courtney and I have a large stake in making SURE Greg does not trademark it for Agri-Synthesis because then we have to worry about Greg taking leave of his senses and restricting it's use. So I, and hopefully JPI, are going to join Greg to trademark this term for the public domain. It is precisely my point that this sort of thing has a chilling effect on me and presumably on others. That's the fact. The fact that Demeter has trademarked this term for its own use has a chilling effect on me, and that's a fact. Demeter may never abuse their right to restrict the use of the term biodynamic--you call it a name, but I call it a term and always have. I think that may be true. But I can't imagine calling it a fact. They have not expressly threatened me yet, but it IS in the Demeter newsletter that my field broadcasters (cosmic pipes) are not biodynamic. That really worries me because Demeter has not investigated these things to my knowledge and certainly they have not investigated with me. These are facts. So you see, I'm not altogether sure, and the fact that they could restrict me from using the term biodynamic chills me to the core, just as much as the idea the Greg might have exclusive rights to use of the term BD preps, a term which my advertisements in ACRES, U.S.A. use. You may rest assured (or may not! I might be an idiot and unwary despite what I write, eh?) I'm not going to let Greg trademark that term except for the public domain because I learned back as a kid never to turn my back on a junkyard dog.* This is a fact. It may also be a fact--though I don't know for sure--that more people out there besides Greg and myself are chilled by the thought of Demeter having exclusive rights to use the term biodynamic. We could ask them and find out more facts. I rather imagine there are others, but I won't claim that is a fact until I hear from a few of them and know for sure. I should start by asking you, Andrew, if you will lay it on the line that you feel certain beyond any shaddow of a doubt that Demeter would never force me to back down from calling my field broadcasters biodynamic. What about it? What is your fact here? Factually, Hugh Lovel *[Just incidentally list readers, don't ever, ever get in the position where you sue Greg or he sues you. For sure don't wrong this guy. I've been to prison twice and I've seen the guts of the law and the system. Greg goes out to win. Oh sure, he seems to act off-the-beam and gets his opposition to underestimate him while he lures them into well-documented indiscretion after well-documented indiscretion and builds his case. Patiently. When he lowers the boom he's utterly lethal, utterly tenacious. Even bulldogs tire, but not Greg. I've never seen anything like it, and I can imagine his grin when he reads this. He likes winning in court. This is his ugly side and it does not make him look good or win him any friends. It makes him look like an utter, stark madman--which he is not. He's sensitive, caring and extremely talented when it comes to bringing the earth to life. This is just one little facet of his personality--but be forewarned.] From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 3 22:45:55 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20935 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:45:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA26158; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:39:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25971 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:35:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.100] (pm3mbr2-166-100.intrepid.net [209.190.166.100]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA16208 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:40:33 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:44:27 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Hugh Courtney's Weather Predictions: Summer 2000 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2855 Thanks to Bruce B for his work on Hugh's RECOMMENDATIONS. They are now available at the JPI pages http://www.igg.com/bdnow/jpi I thought you might find this of interest. -Allan A Look Ahead to the Weather for the Year 2000 While all of the information is not yet available to provide a thorough assessment of what the weather holds in store for us in 2000, a preliminary look at such information that is on hand suggests another very difficult year for agriculture. One of the major tools I use is to record carefully the weather throughout each day of the twelve days of Christmas. This period provides a microcosmic, or perhaps more accurately, a "micro-meteorological" picture of the ensuing twelve months. Since I am writing this in early December, I am hesitant to give more than a tentative prediction for the year 2000. It does, however, appear that the present pattern, which tends to be very much on the warm dry side, will continue through the end of March. April could be among the wettest we have experienced for some time. In late May, we will begin a lengthy period of cold and dry weather. July will bring only modest moisture relief, while August will once again be a very wet month, suggesting that at least in our part of the country, one could expect a very active and early hurricane season. September promises an early, dry and cool fall. October, November and December will see more of the same, with an early winter, mostly cold and dry, an almost sure bet. With the one lunar and two solar eclipses during the month of July, the year beginning and ending with lunar eclipses on January 20 and December 25, it is likely to be a very unsettled year weather-wise. If the remaining information supports that which is currently available, one could almost speculate that we could experience another "year without a summer" such as followed the eruption of Krakatoa in the last century. We will examine this possibility more closely in this column for the next issue after additional data is available. If this should be the case, biodynamic practitioners need to be prepared to increase their use of the biodynamic preparations #501 and #507, in particular. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 03:20:01 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA25534 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 03:20:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA09126; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 03:14:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA05740 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 01:53:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.19] (r-66.27.alltel.net [166.102.66.27]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id AAA20067 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:57:37 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 01:59:21 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Trademark Survey Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2856 Dear BD Now List, This is a survey. Please, please respond. I'll be brief. It has come time to renew my classified display ad in ACRES, U.S.A. I can't think oif a better way to put the integrity of the Demeter Association to the test. The new ad will read: Enlighten your farm with the BD Preps! Biodynamic Field Broadcasters Union Ag Institute Lorraine Cahill or Hugh Lovel 8475 Dockery Road, Blairsville, GA 30512 Call 706-745-6056 * e-mail: uai@alltel.net The question is do you think I will have to contend with Demeter disapproval of my use of the term biodynamic? Yes Not Certain No Please take a moment and e-mail your response. At most it could only take two words. Wanting to know, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 03:20:55 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA25542 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 03:20:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA09244; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 03:15:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA06688 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 02:23:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.19] (r-67.177.alltel.net [166.102.67.177]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id BAA16287 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 01:28:05 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 02:32:30 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Trademark Survey 2 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2857 This is just a reminder to e-mail in the answer to your survey. Of course, if there is more than one respondent at your e-mail address, just send in the score in each category. Andrew had a great idea in terms of dealing with facts. Please let's hear your views. Results will be tabulated and published (without reference to what any individual thought.) I'm really very curious, and probably everyone else is too. However, if you want your views to be private be SURE to e-mail back to: UAI@ALLTEL.NET (a.k.a. uai@alltel.net) Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 11:14:12 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01849 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:14:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29727; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:05:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29215 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:00:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.155] (du-148-233-78-155.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNT0045EH422J@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 09:16:54 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 09:18:35 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark FACTS In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <001901bf561f$8d845c60$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA29217 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2858 >Factually, >Hugh Lovel > > >*[Just incidentally list readers, don't ever, ever get in the position >where you sue Greg or he sues you. For sure don't wrong this guy. I've been >to prison twice and I've seen the guts of the law and the system. Greg goes >out to win. Oh sure, he seems to act off-the-beam and gets his opposition >to underestimate him while he lures them into well-documented indiscretion >after well-documented indiscretion and builds his case. Patiently. When he >lowers the boom he's utterly lethal, utterly tenacious. Even bulldogs tire, >but not Greg. I've never seen anything like it, and I can imagine his grin >when he reads this. He likes winning in court. This is his ugly side and it >does not make him look good or win him any friends. It makes him look like >an utter, stark madman--which he is not. He's sensitive, caring and >extremely talented when it comes to bringing the earth to life. This is >just one little facet of his personality--but be forewarned.] Hey Hugh: This last paragraph of yours sure looks to me as a threat. What is the objective of writing something like that ?, to scare ? I for one got scare, but scare away from participating in an organization where such methods an attitudes would prevail. If you ask me, I rather take orthodoxy, bureaucracy and inefficiency over threats any day. Dear friend I think we are loosing perspective here. I was attracted to BD because it was a way in which I could work for the environment and in agriculture within a framework of spirituality, I imagine most of BD practitioners are in the same position, so what is the use of this power struggle? It sure looks counter productive to spiritual evolvement. Warm greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 11:18:21 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01930 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:18:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00158; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29712 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:05:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.20.122]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:20:24 +0000 Message-ID: <002801bf56c7$76b642c0$7a142cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: Re: Trademark Survey 2 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:21:21 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2859 Hugh - I have no idea what attitude Demeter USA would take to your use of the term 'Biodynamic' without their sanction or permission, but I would surely resent any attempt by them to take you to task; on the other hand, I'd support action by them (or any other appropriate body) to proceed against the fraudulent use of the word by a grower who plainly doesn't follow BD methods. I'm not sure where than leaves me in the 'trademark war' Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 12:06:33 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02797 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:06:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05835; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:57:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05598 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:55:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.19] (r-66.118.alltel.net [166.102.66.118]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id LAA25594 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:00:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002801bf56c7$76b642c0$7a142cc3@m00q6c00> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:06:52 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Trademark Survey 2 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2860 >Hugh - I have no idea what attitude Demeter USA would take to your use of >the term 'Biodynamic' without their sanction or permission, but I would >surely resent any attempt by them to take you to task; on the other hand, >I'd support action by them (or any other appropriate body) to proceed >against the fraudulent use of the word by a grower who plainly doesn't >follow BD methods. I'm not sure where than leaves me in the 'trademark war' >Tony N-S. Please, Tony. Just weigh in your opinion on the question. There are no sides and you won't be taking any sides. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 12:41:02 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04219 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:41:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09340; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:31:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.mcn.org (mail.mcn.org [204.189.12.25]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09114 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:29:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from 63.193.12.33 (ha-1o-men-p1-m21.mcn.org [63.193.12.33]) by mail.mcn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA08815 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 09:33:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3871C13A.6CE2@mcn.org> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 09:45:30 +0000 From: Kate Clarke Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Foxglove Farm (707) 937-4116 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Trademark Survey References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2861 Survey Response; Yes From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 14:17:16 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06098 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:17:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19750; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:08:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19463 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:06:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.19] (r-66.181.alltel.net [166.102.66.181]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id NAA17768 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 13:10:57 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <001901bf561f$8d845c60$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:17:29 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark FACTS Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2862 >>Factually, >>Hugh Lovel >> >> >>*[Just incidentally list readers, don't ever, ever get in the position >>where you sue Greg or he sues you. For sure don't wrong this guy. I've been >>to prison twice and I've seen the guts of the law and the system. Greg goes >>out to win. Oh sure, he seems to act off-the-beam and gets his opposition >>to underestimate him while he lures them into well-documented indiscretion >>after well-documented indiscretion and builds his case. Patiently. When he >>lowers the boom he's utterly lethal, utterly tenacious. Even bulldogs tire, >>but not Greg. I've never seen anything like it, and I can imagine his grin >>when he reads this. He likes winning in court. This is his ugly side and it >>does not make him look good or win him any friends. It makes him look like >>an utter, stark madman--which he is not. He's sensitive, caring and >>extremely talented when it comes to bringing the earth to life. This is >>just one little facet of his personality--but be forewarned.] > > >Hey Hugh: > >This last paragraph of yours sure looks to me as a threat. Dear Guillermo, It sure is a threat. I'm sorry, but Greg is a threat. I want to see if Greg's threat can be avoided and leave our integrity unimpaired. I have a notion this will actually improve everyone's integrity. But you're sure right that Greg is a threat. What is the objective of writing something like that ?, to scare ? I for one got scare, but scare away from participating in an organization where such methods an attitudes would prevail. If you ask me, I rather take orthodoxy, bureaucracy and inefficiency over threats any day. It is time to be wary, not scared. You can be scared and run hid your head if you want, but it isn't going to help. Please beware instead. Please don't be scared. Please help Demeter to wake up, because if they do Greg is the nicest guy you're likely to meet. Hugh How about responding to the survey? It is a matter of expressing an opinion, NOT taking sides. I don't care what opinion you have. I only want to know what it is. > > >Dear friend I think we are loosing perspective here. I was attracted to >BD because it was a way in which I could work for the environment and in >agriculture within a framework of spirituality, I imagine most of BD >practitioners are in the same position, so what is the use of this power >struggle? It sure looks counter productive to spiritual evolvement. It's not counter to spiritual evolvement. Spiritual evolvement includes learning how to handle adversity in a wholesome way. I'm sure you know that. > I sure hope you'll look at this again. And if necessary, again. BD is the best of ways to work with the environment, and Greg is by far the best at using biodynamics to work with the environment of any biodynamic practitioners I know. Why do you suppose I had him at my conference. Or why Allan is sure to try to get him for the Claymont conference in Virginia. Or why I'm hoping he will be coming to Australia with me in July? But if the Demeter Association takes the second step--they've already taken the first step by tradmarking biodynamic--of complaining he is abusing the term biodynamic I' sure I won't be able to stuff the genie back in the bottle, which is what I'm trying to do here. I need you eyes open and wide awake, my friend. Not running for cover. Hugh Lovel >Warm greetings > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 14:26:08 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06229 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:26:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20746; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:17:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20609 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:16:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca33.vthokies.net [206.153.172.33]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA11713 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:03:57 -0500 Message-ID: <004501bf56e8$f1ae5a00$21ac99ce@4l43e> From: "gardner" To: References: <19991228130247.12171.qmail@ww182.netaddress.usa.net> Subject: Re: BD preps, Chernobyl fallout & preps' potency Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:21:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2863 ----- Original Message ----- From: cramer gefren To: Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 8:02 AM Subject: BD preps, Chernobyl fallout & preps' potency > I read in a BD publication from some years ago that European BD growers > were hoping that the use of the preps would mitigate the effects of fallout > from Chernobyl. Does anyone know if this worked or could even be measured? > I am wondering how powerful the preps could be to reverse radiation >damage. You may be interested in the following quotation from Ehrenfried Pfeiffer (letter to A.D. Hormann, Nov. 20, 1960): "If ... the oak bark preparations have become radioactive, through rainwater, you can not expect that the radioactivity is counteracted by the fact that the preparation otherwise is biodynamic. In that case, the physical body has been spoiled for the effectiveness of a cosmic and etheric radiation. "One should investigate in every single case very carefully with a Geiger counter, etc. to see if contamination exists, and how far it goes. ... But do not speculate--know precisely, that is, use a Geiger counter! "If one filters rainwater through a dense layer of peat moss, about one meter thick, and often renews the filter, and if the peat moss comes from deep layers, not from the surface, but about one meter deep, and if it was dried before, without having been rained on, then one has an approximate assurance of filtering out the radioactive substances. ... So please understand; against a physical enemy, one must adopt physical measures." (from "Ehrenfried Pfeiffer: Notes and Lectures, Compendium II", Mercury Press, Spring Valley, NY, 1991, p. 104f.) --Malcolm Gardner From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 14:30:51 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (www.enviroweb.org [208.195.208.29]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06366 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:30:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21238; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:22:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21013 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:20:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca33.vthokies.net [206.153.172.33]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA12212 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:07:45 -0500 Message-ID: <004601bf56e9$7a00ba60$21ac99ce@4l43e> From: "gardner" To: References: <19991228130247.12171.qmail@ww182.netaddress.usa.net> Subject: Re: BD preps, Chernobyl fallout & preps' potency Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:25:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2864 ----- Original Message ----- From: cramer gefren To: Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 8:02 AM Subject: BD preps, Chernobyl fallout & preps' potency > I read in a BD publication from some years ago that European BD growers > were hoping that the use of the preps would mitigate the effects of fallout > from Chernobyl. Does anyone know if this worked or could even be measured? > I am wondering how powerful the preps could be to reverse radiation damage. You may be interested in the following quotation from Ehrenfried Pfeiffer (letter to A.D. Hormann, Nov. 20, 1960): "If ... the oak bark preparations have become radioactive, through rainwater, you can not expect that the radioactivity is counteracted by the fact that the preparation otherwise is biodynamic. In that case, the physical body has been spoiled for the effectiveness of a cosmic and etheric radiation. "One should investigate in every single case very carefully with a Geiger counter, etc. to see if contamination exists, and how far it goes. ... But do not speculate--know precisely, that is, use a Geiger counter! "If one filters rainwater through a dense layer of peat moss, about one meter thick, and often renews the filter, and if the peat moss comes from deep layers, not from the surface, but about one meter deep, and if it was dried before, without having been rained on, then one has an approximate assurance of filtering out the radioactive substances. ... So please understand; against a physical enemy, one must adopt physical measures." (from "Ehrenfried Pfeiffer: Notes and Lectures, Compendium II", Mercury Press, Spring Valley, NY, 1991, p. 104f.) --Malcolm Gardner From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 14:50:30 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07199 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:50:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23679; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23003 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:36:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip090.computer.net [140.186.252.90]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA28328 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:41:46 -0500 (EST) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:42:51 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Trademark Survey Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2865 for goodness sake, Hugh, will you PLEASE send Anne of Demeter or someone else there an EMAIL!!! Ask her what's up? What are Demeter's intentions? Please stop fanning the flames of this very big problem. Big, because it not only challenges farmer's and others' pocketbooks and wastes energy with litigation, but also because it challenges the very meaning of biodynamics through the magical act of "naming", of claiming this language to itself! This community really needs to create & apply NEW methods to communicate. Until then, I recommend the old fashioned telephone or direct email question PUT TO DEMETER!! Clear the air. Bring all sides to light, please. Jane Sherry From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 15:24:34 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08014 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27780; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24939 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:49:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-7.s7.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.7] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 125a24-0002ro-00; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:54:16 -0500 Message-ID: <38725039.E5727770@erols.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 14:55:37 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Trademark Survey References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2866 Jane: Hooray! for a voice of sanity. The last few days have made me question the value of this list. I thought I was going to learn WHY BD and HOW to use BD to make my farm better. Instead, I've heard a lot of crap about internicine warfare. For Christ's sake, can't we get back to the basics? I understand the trademark issue is a problem - a big one. And there appears to have been some other issues (including the formation of BD Now!). But the arguments certainly sound churlish. A face-to-face meeting might not solve everything. But it certainly would be better than all this caterwauling (sp.?). As Guillermo points out, it's better than farts and beans (see the OGL list). But not by a lot. Looking forward to some edumacation - R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 16:32:05 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09505 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:32:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06424; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06115 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:19:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 63.23.31.234 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 13:23:46 -0800 Message-ID: <007701bf56fb$0d6eabc0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark - Return to Sanity Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 13:30:03 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2867 Dear Hugh & Friends, I must agree with Jane and Robert and Guillermo. This trademark discussion has gone way too far over the edge. We cannot, must not allow our community to be drawn further and further into threats, counter-threats, military strategies, legal battles, etc. We have much better things to be doing. Hugh, I agree with you wholeheartedly that there are real issues around Demeter organizations and the BDA's both in the US and elsewhere . No question in my mind. Lack of leadership in the sense of bringing bd forward more, better, etc. sometimes lack of openmindeness, funny approaches to funding, lack of democratic process, etc. These are all though, not just the organizations. It is so easy to tear the work of others apart, so hard to do it better. I want us to have open, forward looking organizations too. But they are created by hard work, not by legal decisions! I am not an apologist for the US BDA in any way shape or form. I left my membership and involvement there for seven years in silent protest over similar concerns. However, in the meantime I worked hard to make positive things happen. How we level our critique, how we work to improve matters of the common good is as essential as what we do. The is the hallmark of our humanity and the signature of our spirit. The way in which you, Hugh, suggest we ought to approach this is not exemplary of a spiritual approach worthy of the being of biodynamics - in my book. I think, upon careful meditation, you will agree. Somehow the fire of has gotten into you, but I am convinced, dear friend, that it is misplaced on this one. Please take the time to review your position carefully and ask yourself if this is really we ought to be fighting and if this is the to do it. So far, I only see destructive elements. I cannot, to answer your question Hugh, guarantee anything in terms of what Demeter or the BDA might do or not do. I do not sit on either Board nor have I any regular contact with these folks. I also cannot guarantee what you or others will do! Fact is, Demeter has not done anything to date to keep anyone from using the term biodynamic. They have only objected to someone trying to trademark, personally, the term . So far, I see no fact warranting as you call them. None. Surveys are fine Hugh, but as you should know, respondants to open surveys are by far (statistically) only those who agree with the motives and positions of the author(s). Skewed stats serve no one. This is not a statistical issue, it is an ethical one. If we need to make huge changes in how we present biodynamics, lets just do it and not worry about Demeter or the BDA - they are NOT standing in the way. (So far!) and if they do, Hugh, I too will join the battle, but not until they have drawn first blood (to use your military terminology). I respect your concerns Hugh, really I do. In fact I share them. But no one has stopped you from doing anything as far as I can see. I still think you are overreacting. We ought to make changes, but make them with dignity and integrity, not malevolence. Lets get back to talking about farming and gardening - shall we? Sincerely, Andrew From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 17:21:33 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10485 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:21:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13638; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from alley.gator.net (root@alley.gator.net [199.78.176.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13116 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:12:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from gxstr (PPP175.gator.net [199.78.177.175]) by alley.gator.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA15279 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:14:58 -0500 Message-ID: <003f01bf5701$b962b1a0$afb14ec7@gxstr> From: "karen & ed sherwood" To: Subject: first post Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:19:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF56D7.CFB27640" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2868 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF56D7.CFB27640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, Having recently been exposed to the existence of biodynamics I was = excited about learning more. Books and websites has helped, but I was = very glad to learn of this listserve, in order to find out more about = the practical applications of BD. Having only been on this list for a = week it seems a bit disconcerting this talk of trademarks, lawyers, = suits, threats etc. I guess it was too much to expect this list to be = much different than others I am a member of..... I do believe that BD is an important part of the future of man on the = earth. I also agree that this trademark debate is important, the future = of BD will be effected by this skirmish. Although I may have come into = this midstream I feel it would be good to get the views of demeter and = the bda on this matter. It is important to keep BD accesibile and = available for the masses (thats the goal right?). It also is important = the make sure that BD standards are stringent enough to make a = difference. I am new to BD but is demeter the only ones to certify BD? = What is the position of the bda on the trademark issue? What problem = would bda and demeter have with 'bd preps' and 'bd' being a part of the = public domain. (who has trademarked 'organic' or 'organically = certified'?) Just questions from a neophyte. Listserves are an interesting forum. They usually are started with one = thing in mind but invariably evolve into something (more or less = depending on your view) different. They are a reflection of the people = who post, the good, the bad, the ugly etc.. As long as the put delete = keys on keyboards this should be no problem.. As I am not fond of very long posts so I will end now, but I would like = to start another thread: I am in the process of purchasing a home and 25 acres, to plant a fruit = orchard and grow food(mainly for my own consumption). I have just been = exposed to BD and would like to know what I should do, what I should = read next, who I should contact. You see the word about BD is getting = out there, people like myself are finding out about it. (More on the = spiritual vs agriculture later.) thanks for your indulgence ed sherwood (neophyte) ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF56D7.CFB27640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,
 
Having recently been exposed to the = existence of=20 biodynamics I was excited about learning more. Books and websites has = helped,=20 but I was very glad to learn of this listserve, in order to find out = more about=20 the practical applications of BD. Having only been on this list for a = week it=20 seems a bit disconcerting this talk of trademarks, lawyers, suits, = threats etc.=20 I guess it was too much to expect this list to be much different than = others I=20 am a member of.....
 
I do believe that BD is an important = part of the=20 future of man on the earth. I also agree that this trademark debate is=20 important, the future of BD will be effected by this skirmish. Although = I may=20 have come into this midstream I feel it would be good to get the views = of=20 demeter and the bda on this matter. It is important to keep BD = accesibile and=20 available for the masses (thats the goal right?). It also is important = the make=20 sure that BD standards are stringent enough to make a difference. I am = new to BD=20 but is demeter the only ones to certify BD? What is the position of the = bda on=20 the trademark issue? What problem would bda and demeter have with 'bd = preps' and=20 'bd' being a part of the public domain. (who has trademarked 'organic' = or=20 'organically certified'?)
Just questions from a = neophyte.
 
Listserves are an interesting forum. = They=20 usually are started with one thing in mind but invariably evolve into = something=20 (more or less depending on your view) different. They are a reflection = of the=20 people who post, the good, the bad, the ugly etc.. As long as the put = delete=20 keys on keyboards this should be no problem..
 
As I am not fond of very long posts = so I will=20 end now, but I would like to start another thread:
 
 
I am in the process of purchasing a = home and 25=20 acres, to plant a fruit orchard and grow food(mainly for my own = consumption). I=20 have just been exposed to BD and would like to know what I should do, = what I=20 should read next, who I should contact. You see the word about BD is = getting out=20 there, people like myself are finding out about it. (More on the = spiritual vs=20 agriculture later.)
 
thanks for your = indulgence
 
ed sherwood (neophyte)
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF56D7.CFB27640-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 17:45:15 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10952 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:45:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16602; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:39:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA16480 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:38:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.19] (r-66.67.alltel.net [166.102.66.67]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id QAA07103 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:42:55 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <007701bf56fb$0d6eabc0$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:49:29 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark - Return to Sanity Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2869 >Dear Hugh & Friends, > >I must agree with Jane and Robert and Guillermo. This trademark discussion >has gone way too far over the edge. We cannot, must not allow our community >to be drawn further and further into threats, counter-threats, military >strategies, legal battles, etc. We have much better things to be doing. > Dear Andrew, I couldn't agree more. Once again you zero in on the meat of things. You'll want to read my responses to Pam and Guillermo. >Hugh, I agree with you wholeheartedly that there are real issues around >Demeter organizations and the BDA's both in the US and elsewhere . No >question in my mind. Lack of leadership in the sense of bringing bd forward >more, better, etc. sometimes lack of openmindeness, funny approaches to >funding, lack of democratic process, etc. These are all though, >not just the organizations. It is so easy to tear the work of others apart, >so hard to do it better. I want us to have open, forward looking >organizations too. But they are created by hard work, not by legal >decisions! Andrew, you are wonderful for making my points for me. I'm in wholehearted agreement. The fact that we keep uncovering these deep divisions and heretofore haven't done much to settle them is truly discouraging. We've got to learn to settle and heal this kind of dispute, and I can assure you for my own part that my definition of "settle" and "heal" does not include keeping my mouth shut any longer about how biodynamic my broadcasters are just because the Demeter Association has been asserting they are not biodynamic and holding a trademark on the term biodynamic. Prior to this I have kept my mouth shut about my biodynamic field broadcasters and just called them field broadcasters. This has been worrying me for quite some time, because the real truth is they are biodynamic field broadcasters and I need to say that so the purchasers get the right idea from the start. There's people out there who think you can broadcast all kinds of nonsense in these biodynamic field broadcasters--even one fellow who broadcast Black Flag in one. Next thing you know someone's going to broadcast something radioactive like maybe some of this gypsum with all the radium in it that's a by-product of Florida's phosphate industry. It's important to me to disabuse anyone from any such dangerous nonsense. These are BIODYNAMIC field broadcasters that serve to broadcast the BD preps. I'm not going to stifle my integrity on this subject any longer just because of the Demeter Association. What I'm going to do instead is hope and pray that the Demeter Association comes to its senses and puts the term biodynamic in the public domain. And maybe it would be helpful to notice. I'm not threatening anyone with anything. If anything I'm being threatened by the fact that there is some chance the Demeter Association will come after me with legal action. So far out of six responses to the survey question the score is three yes (I will have to contend with Demeter disapproval) and three uncertain. No one has answered no yet, but then, there's still a lot haven't answered yet, including yourself. I do think a trend in the responses is already developing. There seems to be some idea in circulation that I will have to contend with Demeter disapproval. Well so be it. My sense of responsibility and integrity shows me I have to use the terms BD preps and biodynamic, and so I'm going to do that. I just got off the phone with my publisher, Fred Walters of ACRES and he says he'll print it my way and he doesn't feel a bit intimidated, so it will be that way. You see I'm confronting what may be an effort to tear my work apart, and I'm doing it without any threats or any efforts at division. I'm exercising my right to be responsible and to have integrity in what I'm doing. Calmly, or as calmly as I can anyway. We'll just have to see what happens. But don't ask me to give in. That would be foolish of you because if I give in then who's next on the firing line is Greg. > >I am not an apologist for the US BDA in any way shape or form. I left my >membership and involvement there for seven years in silent protest over >similar concerns. However, in the meantime I worked hard to make positive >things happen. How we level our critique, how we work to improve matters of >the common good is as essential as what we do. The is the hallmark of >our humanity and the signature of our spirit. I quite agree. >The way in which you, Hugh, >suggest we ought to approach this is not exemplary of a spiritual approach >worthy of the being of biodynamics - in my book. How so? >I think, upon careful >meditation, you will agree. I do not. >Somehow the fire of has >gotten into you, but I am convinced, dear friend, that it is misplaced on >this one. You may be right here about me fighting the good fight. Fighting to bring resolution to this issue without Greg getting into the fray sounds to me like a pretty noble thing to do. >Please take the time to review your position carefully and ask >yourself if this is really we ought to be fighting and if this >is the to do it. So far, I only see destructive elements. > Please look again. I think there is a lot of positivity here. In fact, I seriously invite you to join me. >I cannot, to answer your question Hugh, guarantee anything in terms of what >Demeter or the BDA might do or not do. I do not sit on either Board nor have >I any regular contact with these folks. I also cannot guarantee what you or >others will do! I'm not asking for you to guarantee anything, Andrew. I don't imagine anyone thinks you can. What I asked in my survey was whether you think I will have to contend with Demeter disapproval--yes, no, not certain. I'm just asking for an honest opinion, what do you think? I'd prefer that you sent it to me in private. Your response is no body's business. >Fact is, Demeter has not done anything to date to keep >anyone from using the term biodynamic. Far, far to the contrary, Andrew. For years Demeter has kept me from using the term biodynamic in regard to my biodynamic field broadcasters. They've done this by setting themselves up as the judges of what is and is not biodynamic, and in the past they've banned biodynamic field broadcasters without talking to me about them or investigating at the source. Hugh Courtney is prohibited by agreement with others in the BDA and Demeter from using a biodynamic field broadcaster at JPI I might add. Just the last Demeter Newsletter it was published that field broadcasters are not biodynamic. I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever that the Demeter Association has kept me from using the term biodynamic. About the best you can say is that through many years of patience and diplomacy I have gotten Demeter to soften its stand a little on this matter. Demeter has not served legal notice that I must cease and desist in my use of the word biodynamic with my field broadcaster. My point is that heretofore I've never given them the chance. Who knows what they'll do now that I'm changing all my advertising and brochures? >They have only objected to someone >trying to trademark, personally, the term . So far, I see no fact >warranting as you call them. None. > >Surveys are fine Hugh, but as you should know, respondants to open surveys >are by far (statistically) only those who agree with the motives and >positions of the author(s). Skewed stats serve no one. This is not a >statistical issue, it is an ethical one. You may be right, and I'd truly welcome an independent survey. I want to know what people think and not be mollycoddled. > >If we need to make huge changes in how we present biodynamics, lets just do >it and not worry about Demeter or the BDA - they are NOT standing in the >way. (So far!) and if they do, Hugh, I too will join the battle, but not >until they have drawn first blood (to use your military terminology). I believe that is precisely what I am doing, Andrew, and I appreciate your standing by me if that ever becomes necessary--which I hope it doesn't. If it does become necessary I intend to have earned your support. > >I respect your concerns Hugh, really I do. In fact I share them. But no one >has stopped you from doing anything as far as I can see. I still think you >are overreacting. We ought to make changes, but make them with dignity and >integrity, not malevolence. I've explained this. I have heretofore been stopped. I believe I'm doing precisely as you ask. > >Lets get back to talking about farming and gardening - shall we? > >Sincerely, >Andrew Regards, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 17:54:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11192 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA17685; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:49:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17605 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:48:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.19] (r-66.67.alltel.net [166.102.66.67]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id QAA27770 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:53:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:59:36 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Trademark Survey Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2870 >for goodness sake, Hugh, will you PLEASE send Anne of Demeter or someone >else there an EMAIL!!! Ask her what's up? What are Demeter's intentions? >Please stop fanning the flames of this very big problem. Big, because it >not only challenges farmer's and others' pocketbooks and wastes energy with >litigation, but also because it challenges the very meaning of biodynamics >through the magical act of "naming", of claiming this language to itself! >This community really needs to create & apply NEW methods to communicate. >Until then, I recommend the old fashioned telephone or direct email >question PUT TO DEMETER!! Clear the air. Bring all sides to light, please. > >Jane Sherry Dear Jane, I believe you are quite right. I will forward my complete file to date as soon as I find her e-mail address. I lost all my e-mail addresses in my last computer crash. Can someone give me Anne's e-mail address? It's embarassing, but even my copy of the last Demeter newsletter is missing and must have gone in the wood heater. I would have imagined, however, that by now someone would have tuned her into this debate. I was rather expecting I might hear from her. Best, Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 18:09:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11525 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:09:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA18794; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:03:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA18683 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:02:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.19] (r-66.67.alltel.net [166.102.66.67]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id RAA24510 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:06:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38725039.E5727770@erols.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:13:24 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Trademark Survey Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2871 >Jane: > >Hooray! for a voice of sanity. > >The last few days have made me question the value of this list. I >thought I was going to learn WHY BD and HOW to use BD to make my farm >better. > >Instead, I've heard a lot of crap about internicine warfare. For >Christ's sake, can't we get back to the basics? > >I understand the trademark issue is a problem - a big one. And there >appears to have been some other issues (including the formation of BD >Now!). But the arguments certainly sound churlish. A face-to-face >meeting might not solve everything. But it certainly would be better >than all this caterwauling (sp.?). > >As Guillermo points out, it's better than farts and beans (see the OGL >list). But not by a lot. > >Looking forward to some edumacation - > >R. Actually Robert, I think with some of the things that have come out, like the core issues of anthroposophy--which is central to studying BD--this series has been quite educational about BD. However, if you have some kind of BD question to ask on how to do this or that, by all means ask. Jane has pointed out something that is quite obvious. Sooner or later the discussion must proceed with Demeter. It would, however, be wrong not to engage in the discussion with Demeter at some level where Demeter did not realize how serious a matter this is. In fact the issues go even further. They go back to Europe where their term for biodynamic is also trademarked and they are as I understand it prepared to back up Demeter in court with money if not also with lawyers. So it may well be this discussion can't simply be resolved with the Demeter Association incorporated in New York. It may go much further and deeper and I'm trying to find that out. Sadly, I doubt if this is as simple as Jane seems to think. I feel really wary about this. But having screwed myself up to enter the dragon's lair so to speak I hope to turn over every rock. I don't want the German Demeter entity to come down on my head about using the term biodynamic any more than I want the American one to. And no doubt I've got to see what the situation is in regard to the entire world, because what is at issue here is applying the benefits of our preparations to the largest possible areas over the entire earth for its healing. One more thing. I keep waiting to hear if there's any interest out there to hear how these things work. They are so biodynamic! It is a real education in how biodynamics works. Sincerely, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 18:19:16 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11807 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:19:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19502; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:13:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19352 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:11:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (cust41.nrvmax1.tor1.netrover.com [205.209.21.41]) by river.netrover.com (8.9.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA08927 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:16:41 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-From: villager@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: Re: first post Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:18:39 -0500 Message-ID: <01bf570a$0900cc80$LocalHost@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF56E0.202AC480" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2872 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF56E0.202AC480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Karen and Ed:=20 The first thing that occurred to me in your orchard query was that we = have invited Hugh Williams to present on this subject at our BD day, = Sun.,Jan.30, 2000, as a separate part of the annual Guelph Organic = Conference in Guelph, Ontario, Canada. [This is a weekend occasion]. I don't know where you live, or if you would attend, but if not, I would = make the effort on your behalf to procure a tape of Hugh's presentation = if that is possible. Meanwhile, i'm sure there are others on this list who would advise on = preseason steps which you could make or prepare for. One relevant thing which I recall from a BD mentor was: To prune off the = " cancerous growths" on any branches and , after cutting spade slits = into the ground around the outer drip line of the tree, insert the = growth specimens into those slits, pour water over them, and tamp the = slits closed again. Alledgedly, the growths contain and emit the "medicinal antidote" whose = deficiency the tree is signalling above ground. Further to this, there is some question about whether to generally prune = at all, or if so, in a distinctly different manner. About this, i have = been seeking answers myself over time. Please, anyone else on the list comment/verify on this, as i have no = firsthand longterm experience of this.... only my plum tree which was = prolific the following year. However, i don't regard that as = causal/conclusive of the remedy. Naturally, anything done should be done in the appropriate times as = indicated by the planting calendars available : Stella Natura;and Maria = Thun's "Working with the Stars" , and the excellent synopsese of Hugh = Courtney available on Allen Balliet's site , BDNOW. Sincerely, manfred palmer=20 -----Original Message----- From: karen & ed sherwood To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 5:26 PM Subject: first post =20 =20 All, =20 Having recently been exposed to the existence of biodynamics I was = excited about learning more. Books and websites has helped, but I was = very glad to learn of this listserve, in order to find out more about = the practical applications of BD. Having only been on this list for a = week it seems a bit disconcerting this talk of trademarks, lawyers, = suits, threats etc. I guess it was too much to expect this list to be = much different than others I am a member of..... =20 I do believe that BD is an important part of the future of man on = the earth. I also agree that this trademark debate is important, the = future of BD will be effected by this skirmish. Although I may have come = into this midstream I feel it would be good to get the views of demeter = and the bda on this matter. It is important to keep BD accesibile and = available for the masses (thats the goal right?). It also is important = the make sure that BD standards are stringent enough to make a = difference. I am new to BD but is demeter the only ones to certify BD? = What is the position of the bda on the trademark issue? What problem = would bda and demeter have with 'bd preps' and 'bd' being a part of the = public domain. (who has trademarked 'organic' or 'organically = certified'?) Just questions from a neophyte. =20 Listserves are an interesting forum. They usually are started with = one thing in mind but invariably evolve into something (more or less = depending on your view) different. They are a reflection of the people = who post, the good, the bad, the ugly etc.. As long as the put delete = keys on keyboards this should be no problem.. =20 As I am not fond of very long posts so I will end now, but I would = like to start another thread: =20 =20 I am in the process of purchasing a home and 25 acres, to plant a = fruit orchard and grow food(mainly for my own consumption). I have just = been exposed to BD and would like to know what I should do, what I = should read next, who I should contact. You see the word about BD is = getting out there, people like myself are finding out about it. (More on = the spiritual vs agriculture later.) =20 thanks for your indulgence =20 ed sherwood (neophyte) =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF56E0.202AC480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Karen and Ed:
 
The first thing that occurred to me in your orchard query was that = we have=20 invited Hugh Williams to present on this subject at our BD day, =20 Sun.,Jan.30, 2000, as a separate part of the annual Guelph Organic = Conference in=20 Guelph, Ontario, Canada. [This is a weekend occasion].
I don't know where you live, or if you would attend, but if not, I = would=20 make the effort on your behalf to procure a tape of Hugh's presentation = if that=20 is possible.
Meanwhile, i'm sure there are others on this list who would advise = on=20 preseason steps which you could make or prepare for. 
One relevant thing which I recall from a BD mentor was: To prune = off the=20 " cancerous growths" on any branches and , after cutting spade = slits=20 into the ground around the outer drip line of the tree, insert the = growth=20 specimens into those slits, pour water over them, and tamp the slits = closed=20 again.
Alledgedly, the growths contain and emit the "medicinal = antidote"=20 whose deficiency the tree is signalling above ground. 
Further to this, there is some question about whether to generally = prune at=20 all, or if so, in a distinctly different manner. About this, i have been = seeking=20 answers myself over time. 
Please, anyone else on the list comment/verify on this, as i have = no=20 firsthand longterm experience of this.... only my plum tree which was = prolific=20 the following year. However, i don't regard that as causal/conclusive of = the=20 remedy. 
Naturally, anything done should be done in the appropriate times as = indicated by the planting calendars available : Stella Natura;and Maria = Thun's=20 "Working with the Stars" , and the excellent synopsese of Hugh = Courtney available on Allen Balliet's site , BDNOW.
 
Sincerely, manfred palmer 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 karen & ed sherwood <sherwood@gator.net>
To: = bdnow@envirolink.org <bdnow@envirolink.org>
D= ate:=20 Tuesday, January 04, 2000 5:26 PM
Subject: first=20 post

All,
 
Having recently been exposed to = the=20 existence of biodynamics I was excited about learning more. Books = and=20 websites has helped, but I was very glad to learn of this listserve, = in=20 order to find out more about the practical applications of BD. = Having only=20 been on this list for a week it seems a bit disconcerting this talk = of=20 trademarks, lawyers, suits, threats etc. I guess it was too much to = expect=20 this list to be much different than others I am a member=20 of.....
 
I do believe that BD is an = important part of=20 the future of man on the earth. I also agree that this trademark = debate is=20 important, the future of BD will be effected by this skirmish. = Although I=20 may have come into this midstream I feel it would be good to get the = views=20 of demeter and the bda on this matter. It is important to keep BD = accesibile=20 and available for the masses (thats the goal right?). It also is = important=20 the make sure that BD standards are stringent enough to make a = difference. I=20 am new to BD but is demeter the only ones to certify BD? What is the = position of the bda on the trademark issue? What problem would bda = and=20 demeter have with 'bd preps' and 'bd' being a part of the public = domain.=20 (who has trademarked 'organic' or 'organically = certified'?)
Just questions from a = neophyte.
 
Listserves are an interesting = forum. They=20 usually are started with one thing in mind but invariably evolve = into=20 something (more or less depending on your view) different. They are = a=20 reflection of the people who post, the good, the bad, the ugly etc.. = As long=20 as the put delete keys on keyboards this should be no = problem..
 
As I am not fond of very long = posts so I=20 will end now, but I would like to start another thread:
 
 
I am in the process of = purchasing a home and=20 25 acres, to plant a fruit orchard and grow food(mainly for my own=20 consumption). I have just been exposed to BD and would like to know = what I=20 should do, what I should read next, who I should contact. You see = the word=20 about BD is getting out there, people like myself are finding out = about it.=20 (More on the spiritual vs agriculture later.)
 
thanks for your = indulgence
 
ed sherwood = (neophyte)
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF56E0.202AC480-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 18:23:56 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11934 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:23:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19955; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:18:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19525 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:13:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.216] (pm3mbr5-166-216.intrepid.net [209.190.166.216]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA11255 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:17:55 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:12:30 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Still Point Community Farm Job Announcement Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2873 allan, can you post this job ad on bdnow? i don't have the time and energy to be part of the list right now, but i would really appreciate it if you could pass this info around. also, where else have you posted your ad? are there any more good lists on the internet that I should hit? we were down at claymont for a couple of days last week packing up my dad's stuff. I poked around in the gardens a little and looked at the animals - seems like something's still going down there. maybe we'll come ddown for the conference again sometime. hope all is well. thanks, Nathaniel Still Point Community Farm 103 Amenia Union Rd. Amenia, NY 12501 (914) 373-8010 farmernat@mohawk.net Assistant Grower and Farmhands needed for 2000 season Still Point Community Farm is a young and developing community supported farm in the breathtaking Oblong Valley, about 90 miles north from New York City. Managed by youthful idealists, we offer a complete farm experience, from starting seeds in the greenhouse and caring for and harvesting crops, to innovative building construction and tree planting, to solstice bonfires by the riverside. We spray biodynamic preparations and plant according to the lunar calendar (mostly). We dream of using horses someday, but acknowledge the usefulness of our two small tractors. Vegetable crops are our livelihood, and we strive for quality in what we produce. All farmers live together in the farmhouse. Living space is shared, meals are vegetarian, cooking and cleaning are cooperative, and all are expected to participate in the daily tasks of the household. We wish to develop community on the farm as well as with our member families. In 1999 we served 66 members, a local farmers' market, and several wholesale accounts; in 2000 we will serve 150 shares and no other markets. Six of our 25 tillable acres are currently in production; in addition we will be planting fruit trees and berries this coming spring, building fertility on the remaining tillable land, making biodynamic compost, and continuing reclamation of 30 acres of neglected pasture and woodland. Assistant Grower: We are looking for someone with experience using and maintaining machinery in organic crop production to work with the farmer as we expand and develop our farming system. The assistant grower will be responsible for much of the field operations such as soil preparation, planting and incorporating cover crops, making compost, and management of fallow lands, as well as general tasks like planting, cultivating, harvesting and washing. The assistant grower position is a prime opportunity for young farmers to gain managment experience without the risk of starting a new operation. Through managing the fieldwork, the assistant has the chance to understand the whole farming system in a very real, practical way. The position begins in March and runs until the end of November, and depending on compatibility and interest, a long-term position may evolve. Farmhands: We need people who are interested in farming as a way of life and willing to work long and hard. The experience of work on the land is real and meaningful and supports our efforts on a daily basis. If you understand the need for real experience, this may be a place for you. Farmhands learn about all aspects of vegetable growing through practical tasks like greenhouse seeding and weekly harvesting. We provide room, board, and a monthly stipend of $300, but the primary compensation offered is the farm experience itself, which depends upon one's personal engagement with the farm and the work of the farm. We ask farmhands to make a commitment for at least 3 months, and depending on ability and interest, longer-term positions may be available. We need help during the growing season, from March through November. We ask applicants for both positions to make two visits to our farm. The first is a short (half-day) tour/interview when we get a chance to meet one another. If we are both still interested, a second visit is arranged, usually for a week or longer, after which a decision is made. If you are interested or just want more information, please call Nathaniel Thompson at (914) 373-8010 or email farmernat@mohwak.net. -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 18:59:00 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12437 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:59:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA22937; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:51:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA22558 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:46:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.216] (pm3mbr5-166-216.intrepid.net [209.190.166.216]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18287 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:51:21 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:52:50 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Homeopathy Works January Newsletter Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2874 >Subject: Homeopathy Works January Newsletter >Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:29:08 -0400 >x-sender: whp@mail.intrepid.net >From: whp >To: > > This newsletter is from Washington Homeopathic Products - >http://www.homeopathyworks.com or 800-336-1695. The newsletter offers >info on homeopathy, a special of the month & news about homeopathy. > > To be removed from the e-mail list click >mailto:info@homeopathyworks.com, with the message "remove from email >list" in the body. >Care of Remedies > > Homeopaths are taught that remedies should not have long exposure to >sunlight because of the possibility that they will be ruined. They are >told to store remedies out of direct sunlight. Amber bottles are often >used to reduce exposure to light. > > About 10 years ago, bottle companies stopped making square >amber bottles >and Mr. Furr (previous owner for 40 yrs.) switched to square clear >bottles. His experience was that clear, or amber didn't make much, if >any, difference -- I haven't conducted laboratory studies, but I know >that remedies still work that are in my first kit (Luyties 20 yrs. ago), >and my second kit (Borneman's - 18 yrs. ago), and they are in clear >bottles. I also don't recall any experiential reports that remedies in >clear bottles don't work. > > Having said this, I realize none-the-less that the word is >out, and some >people are uncomfortable with clear bottles. To accommodate those with >this concern, we are converting to amber bottles for our single remedies. > > The vast majority of people using combination remedies have not been >taught clear Vs amber, and many say they like clear bottles. Since the >company's experience is that amber/clear makes little, or no, difference >combinations have remained in the clear bottles. > > For the combinations we have also begun switching to a real hard, clear >plastic. It is the same plastic bottled water comes in, it doesn't >breakdown like the old plastics did. This is an economy move -- The >bottles cost less to purchase and less to ship. Other homeopathic >companies have used plastic for years without negative effect. > > Plastic or glass, amber or clear, keeping remedies away from long term >exposure to direct sun seems logical since so little is known about what >makes homeopathic medicines work. > > Remedies should not be stored where it is damp, i.e., the refrigerator >being the worst place. Moisture will melt the pills into a glob so you >can't get them out of the bottle. Where water has gotten into the >bottle, it is certainly possible that whatever was "living" in the water >is now living on the remedy - not good. > > There is only one other situation where I recommend tossing the remedy >out, and that is when it has been exposed to high heat. We clean our >equipment at 190 degrees. I would certainly toss out any remedy that has >been exposed to heat in that range. I would say 150 degrees or higher >would be terminal. > > I would like to hear from readers who have used remedies exposed to >heat. I have had my personal kit in temperatures well over 100 degrees >(closed in car on a hot day), and they weren't affected. > > There are other rumors about proper care of remedies - don't send them >through airport security devices, don't put them near a microwave, >refrigerator, electric blanket, cell phone, and other places where >ambient energies are flying around. Again, since we don't know much >about the energy of homeopathic medicines, take precautions, but I don't >see throwing the remedies out simply because they were exposed to any of >these energies. After all, there are energies coming out of everywhere, >and it's simply impractical to keep tossing out remedies when there is >little or no proof that they are affected by such energy. > > I take all the precautions, but "exposures" happen, and I don't throw >the remedies out, and they still work. If your remedies are exposed to >these energies for a long period, make note of it and if they do not >work, order a replacement - If the replacement works - Then toss out the >old remedy(s). > > Touching the remedies -- The habit to get into is pouring the remedies >into the cap, and from there into the mouth. With this habit, you won't >pour your remedy into a dirty hand and then throw all of it into your >mouth. If you must touch a remedy in order to put it into a child's or >pet's mouth, clean your hands. It is not about killing the remedy, it's >about good sanitary habits. Also, if you do pour too many remedies into >the cap, you can pour some back, but if you pour them into your hand, >take what you need (if your hand is clean), but don't put the rest back >in the bottle -- It's not worth it. Contaminating all the remedies to >save a penny's worth of pills is poor economy. > >Special - You must ask for the E-Mail discount to get it. > > Individuals - 10% OFF - > The special is 10% off all of our products (any >product in our catalog >whose price ends in 9, plus HomeoPet products). If you are already >entitled to a discount, you will receive that discount and then another >10% will be taken off. > A kind of special - If you would like to know if there is a store near >you that carries our products, ask me via e-mail (please not by phone) >and I'll get back to you. If you know of a store that should be carrying >our products, send me a name and address and I'll see what I can do. > > Retailers - Buy three, get a fourth one free. > Order three of a kind of any of our combination remedies and receive a >fourth one free. Don't forget to ask for the e-mail special. > >Homeopathy in the News > > This wasn't in the news - this is news - two things: First is >we will be >featured in a new book on alternative medicine by National Geographic - >six photos plus a story. It will be months before it comes out but the >last one they did was great - so keep an eye out for it - we'll carry it >- not only for our egos, but it will fit right in with the kinds of books >we carry in our bookstore. > > Second, homeopathy is growing - Interest/sales in homeopathy have >increased about 20% a year for the last eight years. Amazingly, interest >in the alternative medicine in general is equally booming. I noticed on >Yahoo (I think) that there were hundreds and hundreds of web sites for >alternative medicine. Homeopathy is just a small piece of this - I guess >we're special. Herbal medicine has about 400 sites while homeopathy has >around 40. Ten years ago maybe there would have been four homeopathic >sites. > > I believe the growth is based on the positive side of life (Rather than >doctor bashing). People (& their doctors) have more access to information >on alternative healing so they can decide for themselves what they want >to do with their health issues. When I first started learning about >homeopathy (20+ years ago) there were two books on homeopathy for sale in >all of Washington, DC, now hundreds are available. See our booklist >online at http://www.homeopathyworks.com/booklist.htm. > >Best wishes in the New Millenium >Joe Lillard, President, Homeopathy Works >124 Fairfax St. >Berkeley Springs WV 25411 >800-336-1695 >304-258-2541 >fax. 877-286- 0601 > >mailto:info@homeopathyworks.com >http://www.homeopathyworks.com > -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 19:08:07 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12592 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:08:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA23767; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.69]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA23638 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:59:47 -0500 (EST) From: DAT777888@aol.com Received: from DAT777888@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.0.d05d792 (4564) for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:04:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.d05d792.25a3e472@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:04:02 EST Subject: unsubscribe To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2875 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 19:41:28 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12945 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:41:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA26450; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:34:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26205 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.155] (du-148-233-78-199.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNU005S46WK3L@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:34:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 18:35:30 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark FACTS In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <001901bf561f$8d845c60$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id TAA26215 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2876 >>Hey Hugh: >> >>This last paragraph of yours sure looks to me as a threat. > >Dear Guillermo, > >It sure is a threat. I'm sorry, but Greg is a threat. I want to see if >Greg's threat can be avoided and leave our integrity unimpaired. I have a >notion this will actually improve everyone's integrity. But you're sure >right that Greg is a threat. > >What is the objective of writing something like that ?, to scare ? I for >one got scare, but scare away from participating in an organization where >such methods an attitudes would prevail. If you ask me, I rather take >orthodoxy, bureaucracy and inefficiency over threats any day. > >It is time to be wary, not scared. You can be scared and run hid your head >if you want, but it isn't going to help. Please beware instead. Please >don't be scared. Please help Demeter to wake up, because if they do Greg is >the nicest guy you're likely to meet. > >Hugh > >How about responding to the survey? It is a matter of expressing an >opinion, NOT taking sides. I don't care what opinion you have. I only want >to know what it is. > > >> >> >>Dear friend I think we are loosing perspective here. I was attracted to >>BD because it was a way in which I could work for the environment and in >>agriculture within a framework of spirituality, I imagine most of BD >>practitioners are in the same position, so what is the use of this power >>struggle? It sure looks counter productive to spiritual evolvement. > >It's not counter to spiritual evolvement. Spiritual evolvement includes >learning how to handle adversity in a wholesome way. I'm sure you know that. >> > > >I sure hope you'll look at this again. And if necessary, again. BD is the >best of ways to work with the environment, and Greg is by far the best at >using biodynamics to work with the environment of any biodynamic >practitioners I know. Why do you suppose I had him at my conference. Or why >Allan is sure to try to get him for the Claymont conference in Virginia. Or >why I'm hoping he will be coming to Australia with me in July? But if the >Demeter Association takes the second step--they've already taken the first >step by tradmarking biodynamic--of complaining he is abusing the term >biodynamic I' sure I won't be able to stuff the genie back in the bottle, >which is what I'm trying to do here. > >I need you eyes open and wide awake, my friend. Not running for cover. > My good friend Hugh: How could I reply ? It is indeed a difficult subject because you have good points and the BDA/DA must have their good points as well. Let me stick to my previous opinion: ********************* "I see the point Hugh L. and Greg W. are trying to make in making public domain the name Biodynamics in order to promote the expansion of BD in the world and in our food supply. But I also see the need to keep Steiner's teachings in a unpolluted condition, and therefore I see the need for an orthodox BDA and a Demeter certification program using trademarks and other legal business formats. Ideally I would like to see a democratic but objective BD Association interested in expanding the orthodox teachings as well as interested in breaking new ground by supporting innovative research and operations. (I strongly believe orthodoxy and innovation have their own merits and should coexist within an operational and goal oriented organizational framework)" *********************** So to answer your, IMHO, irrelevant and biased survey I have to say that if the BDA/DA are serious about their responsibilities, they should go after you because the cosmic pipe is not within the framework of Steiner teachings which they are supposed to safeguard: "The Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association (BDA), a non-profit organization open to the public, was formed in the U.S. in 1938 in order to foster, guide, and safeguard the Biodynamic method of agriculture ". (from the BDAA web site). On the other hand, I am studying an article (courtesy of my friend Jim from NZ) entitled "The Widening of Mans Perceptions" (RS January 7, 1923), where Dr. Steiner seems to relate to radionics. (I am still trying to understand it). Anyway, the BDA/DA are also responsible for doing or supporting innovative research in BD and therefore should have being interested in looking into your data. So if they have not, (and I take your word for it), they are wrong. If they looked at your data and were not convinced, well then you should be responsible for providing the needed new data according to whatever standards they are using to evaluate things. I am not questioning if the cosmic pipe works or if it is Biodynamic or not, that is not the issue. The issue is that there has being little communication (for whatever reason) between the BDA/DA and its public and its base of members. So how can we make it more democratic, more open, but yet, still loyal to safeguarding Steiner's Agriculture from commercialism and opportunism?, I think that is the real issue. I also believe that unless you get the BDA/DA to response, your posts to this list and to sanet are worthless, since they are one sided. About the threats let me give you a quote from A. Einstein I read today in SANET: "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." About the BDA/DA not looking at your research, let me give you another Einstein gem: "Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." About keeping this one sided discussion going on in electronic discussion forums, let me give you another example of Einstein's words: "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Peace my friend (no insult intended) Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 20:33:13 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13558 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:33:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA01798; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:27:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA01458 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from xtra.co.nz ([210.55.126.163]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <20000105003418.KJUE6460852.mta1-rme@xtra.co.nz> for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:34:18 +1300 Message-ID: <38728D7C.4266C820@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 13:17:00 +1300 From: eaccess Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNow Subject: Bio - de Mania? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2877 Dear List A few words from the Bard "What's in a name? that which we call a rose, By any other name would smell as sweet" (1) Steiner might have added "That which we call a BD carrot would by any other name still taste so!" I suggest the participants of the latest flurry of registration also register all combinations and permutations of the following words, and place them in the public domain - thus ensuring the safety of the world. - There is plenty of room for them all! Bio Dy Manics Manic Dynamics Manic Organics and Manic Germanics. JT. ref: Romeo and Juliet. Act 2 Scene 2. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 21:26:28 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14101 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 21:26:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06107; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 21:20:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05576 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 21:15:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.19] (r-66.55.alltel.net [166.102.66.55]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id UAA10010 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:20:12 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38728D7C.4266C820@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 21:26:45 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Bio - de Mania? Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2878 >Dear List > >A few words from the Bard > >"What's in a name? that which we call a rose, >By any other name would smell as sweet" (1) > >Steiner might have added > >"That which we call a BD carrot would by any other name still taste so!" > >I suggest the participants of the latest flurry of registration also >register all combinations and permutations of the following words, and >place them in the public domain - thus ensuring the safety of the world. >- There is plenty of room for them all! >Bio Dy Manics >Manic Dynamics >Manic Organics >and >Manic Germanics. > >JT. > >Dear James, No doubt this is whaat we need--a sense of humor about these things! Hugh Lovel >ref: >Romeo and Juliet. Act 2 Scene 2. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 21:59:11 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14523 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 21:59:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09019; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 21:53:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08904 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 21:51:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.19] (r-66.109.alltel.net [166.102.66.109]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id UAA05392 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:56:47 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <001901bf561f$8d845c60$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:03:22 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Good news Guillermo Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2879 Guillermo writes: > > >My good friend Hugh: > >How could I reply ? It is indeed a difficult subject because you have >good points and the BDA/DA must have their good points as well. Let me >stick to my previous opinion: > > ********************* > >"I see the point Hugh L. and Greg W. are trying to make in making public >domain the name Biodynamics in order to promote the expansion of BD in the >world and in our food supply. But I also see the need to keep Steiner's >teachings in a unpolluted condition, and therefore I see the need for an >orthodox BDA and a Demeter certification program using trademarks and >other legal business formats. > >Ideally I would like to see a democratic but objective BD Association >interested in expanding the orthodox teachings as well as interested in >breaking new ground by supporting innovative research and operations. (I >strongly believe orthodoxy and innovation have their own merits and should >coexist within an operational and goal oriented organizational framework)" > > *********************** > >So to answer your, IMHO, irrelevant and biased survey I have to say that >if the BDA/DA are serious about their responsibilities, they should go >after you because the cosmic pipe is not within the framework of Steiner >teachings which they are supposed to safeguard: > >"The Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association (BDA), a non-profit >organization open to the public, was formed in the U.S. in 1938 in order >to foster, guide, and safeguard the Biodynamic method of agriculture ". >(from the BDAA web site). > >On the other hand, I am studying an article (courtesy of my friend Jim >from NZ) entitled "The Widening of Mans Perceptions" (RS January 7, 1923), >where Dr. Steiner seems to relate to radionics. (I am still trying to >understand it). Anyway, the BDA/DA are also responsible for doing or >supporting innovative research in BD and therefore should have being >interested in looking into your data. So if they have not, (and I take >your word for it), they are wrong. If they looked at your data and were >not convinced, well then you should be responsible for providing the >needed new data according to whatever standards they are using to evaluate >things. > >I am not questioning if the cosmic pipe works or if it is Biodynamic or >not, that is not the issue. The issue is that there has being little >communication (for whatever reason) between the BDA/DA and its public and >its base of members. So how can we make it more democratic, more open, >but yet, still loyal to safeguarding Steiner's Agriculture from >commercialism and opportunism?, I think that is the real issue. > >I also believe that unless you get the BDA/DA to response, your posts to >this list and to sanet are worthless, since they are one sided. > >About the threats let me give you a quote from A. Einstein I read today in >SANET: > >"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more >violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move >in the opposite direction." > >About the BDA/DA not looking at your research, let me give you another >Einstein gem: > >"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and >Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." > >About keeping this one sided discussion going on in electronic discussion >forums, let me give you another example of Einstein's words: > >"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm >not sure about the universe." > > >Peace my friend (no insult intended) > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Dear Guillermo, Thanks for hanging in there. Probably at the time you were writing this, I was contacted by the BDA via Chuck Beedy. I then went and put my body in the bed and had a little much needed astral journey, because since this business started I have been staying up till dawn at the computer and grabbing a couple hours rest and staying up till dawn again. Then up again and falling into bed at 3 a.m. etc. I'm going to see about a lengthy catch-up real soon. Essentially I think it was good news. Chuck endorsed the notion of Demeter putting the mark on biodynamic in the public domain, and Agri-Synthesis (Greg), UAI (me) and JPI (Courtney) trademarking BD preps for the public domain. I've got a green light to advertize my biodynamic fiend broadcasters and Chuck even asked me to please write an article on how biodynamic field broadcasting works for the BDA journal. Whew! So I think tensions will ease off. We'll have to see how it all works out. These things take time. I don't think Demeter can do anything without a board meeting. The same with JPI in regards to dropping their objections to Agri-Synthesis tradmarking BD preps and joining Agri-Synthesis instead in trademarking BD preps for the public domain. But at this point the lights all look green. Let's hope they stay that way. I think this has all been educational for everyone involved. As I've expressed in this series of posts, I'm not much interested in changing the Demeter Association and their certification. I like Anne Mendenhall, I like Chuck Beedy. I like all these people. I'm not comfortable with anyone having me at a disadvantage, of course. But if Greg and Agri-Synthesis can proceed with his own biodynamic certification, what does he care how Demeter Certifies biodynamic growers? If I can advertise biodynamic field broadcasters and even write about them in the BDA journal (that was a pleasant surprise) then I don't have much to complain about. Demeter is orthodox and Agri-Synthesis is innovative. I like having the contrast just fine. If the farmer can take his pick and so can the consumer then everyone ought to be all right. Now it looks like just as soon as the terms BD preps and biodynamic are safely in the public domain and that's final then everyone is going to be happy. It's been a little, ahem! stimulating getting to this point, but I don't mind at all. And like I said, thanks for hanging in there. It looks like you will get your wish, Namely: ". . . a democratic but objective BD Association interested in expanding the orthodox teachings as well as interested in breaking new ground by supporting innovative research and operations. (I strongly believe orthodoxy and innovation have their own merits and should coexist within an operational and goal oriented organizational framework)" Warm regards, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 22:08:28 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA14588 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:08:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09707; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09649 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:01:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.19] (r-66.109.alltel.net [166.102.66.109]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id VAA27833 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 21:06:41 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3870F387.7005CACE@pop.spkn.uswest.net> References: <386FB33D.7C64@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:13:15 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Intellectual Property Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2880 Deidre writes: Thank you all for an interesting forum. I look forward to other biodynamic topics in addition to the patenting problem. Sincerely, Deidre And Woody writes: Ah Deidre: It takes a newbie to bring fresh perspective. You write <<, it is not clear to be why certain people and/or organizations are obtaining patents having to do with biodynamic materials and techniques. Normally, this is done for economic gain.>> Well, of course. Let us follow the money. When I ascribe in my mind terms like :BDthen" and "fossilized" and "old paradigm" to the BD powers that be in North America, that is, The Biodynamic Association, Demeter, Inc., and their apologists on the List, it is to note with dismay the institutionalization of biodynamics, the bureaucratization of it. First the Vision...then the Missions...then the Hierophants...then the Corporations...then sclerosis. We are told that BDA/Demeter are non-profit organizations, with boards of directors and layers of administration...however thin and poorly resourced or understaffed...doing yeomans work toward an agreed-upon sacred mission. Well, praise be! As if claiming the high ground were excuse for not having had a new idea in 40 years. The creaky and discredited method of operation here is the same as in any organization/movement/bureaucracy/government ...self-empowerment, self-perpetuation as a stable entity, growth at whatever price. The last three funding appeals I had from BDA/Demeter were, more or less in order: 1) Appeal for donations to defray legal expenses associated with prosecuting the copyright on the term Biodynamic (!) 2) Appeal for donations to offset the cost of a seed cleaning machine; [why is a tax exempt organization raising funds for a seed initiative in direct competition with individual Biodynamic growers who grow seeds for a living]? 3) Appeal for donations in general...end of the tax year, blah-blah, meeting challenges. We read in the latest issue of the journal BIODYNAMICS that #3 priority for the next few years of the Association is "Fundraising and Development". Follow the money...like the Biodynamic Assocation Executive Office followed the scent of wine grapes to San Francisco. Follow the money. If Demeter certification can command a premium of 50 percent to 300 percent on your rutabaga and yogurt...Demeter stands to rake off huge sums from the producer, up front, before any marketing under the copyright names "Demeter Certified" or "Biodynamic." Demeter could expand from a parttime farmhouse office to suites in a high rise office building. On the backs of the farmers. The organization exists FIRST to perpetuate itself. In the runup to the new millenium, the past generation or two, this has meant cancerous growth rates for governments and corporations, leading to abuses like Monsanto's and the United Appeal guy with his learjets and CEO style salary. Many of us individuals are aware that this trend has run inself out and no longer makes sense. The irony is most of the people who make up these organizations, in their other lives as gardeners and farmers, know that it no longer makes sense. These people--with but one or two exceptions, men--BDA Board members like Hugh Courtney and Ernie Harvey-- are horney-handed sons of toil, businessmen, thinkers, and perhaps Anthroposophists. They are not effete, lardassed executive types or bureaucrats. Good people propping up a dinosaur organization. In the damning with faint praise department, I'll end with a praisful look at BIODYNAMICS, the sole reason I would keep BDA existing. The series of editors I have known there--Grotzke, Morrow, Yeager, Balliett, Bumbarger--are real people operating in an antiquated organization. Tear down the rest of the BDA and replace it with schizmatic organizations [which in their own time will take on all the characteristics of bloated bureaucracies]...but leave me BIODYNAMICS, the journal. Woody And Kate writes: Dear Deidre, I consider your thoughts to be the beginning of new ways of percieving this group, ( loosely designed) of BD travelers. My own journey, as a woman who is the Farmer has much to do with bypassing the establishment in order to dive through alot of the intellectual dogma and get the work done. If we waste too much time on who owns what the world will starve and the magic that Biodynamics offers us all will be sold to the higest bidders, not unlike the prices of organic produce at the local co-op. The earth offers up all the solutions and Steiner, Jevons, Chadwick, etc. spent their lives finding these solutions. Naturally, with all the changes we are putting the earth through modifications and progressive changes can be observed by all of us dedicated to the practice of sustainable farming, in which I consider BD to be the highest form. It is true that many people have not heard of Biodynamics and a simple explaination I found that works here in Northern California is to say Biodynamics is homeopathy for the earth. I would encourage this group to try to reach out and become practically helpfull to one another. I did indeed get certification, at great expense, and yet felt it was the least helpfull of all the ways of knowing about BD. I am hopefull that more regional certification and contact with other BD farmers will create more of a rele vant information network. It is still very much a good old boy's club out there but one can only hopesome of the boys will stop their pissing contests and get down to work. Best reguards to all in the New Year.Kate Clark Foxglove Farm/ Earth touching Institute PO 143 Comptche, Ca. 95427 And Guillermo writes: Dear Hugh, Andrew, Allan, Greg, Manfred ..... I am a bit confused here and have been confused ever since BD-l became BD-Now. I see the point Hugh L. and Greg W. are trying to make in making public domain the name Biodynamics in order to promote the expansion of BD in the world and in our food supply. But I also see the need to keep Steiner's teachings in a unpolluted condition, and therefore I see the need for an orthodox BDA and a Demeter certification program using trademarks and other legal business formats. Ideally I would like to see a democratic but objective BD Association interested in expanding the orthodox teachings as well as interested in breaking new ground by supporting innovative research and operations. (I strongly believe orthodoxy and innovation have their own merits and should coexist within an operational and goal oriented organizational framework) Since May 1, 1998, BD-Now IMO has been essentially the voice of those doing innovative work and rather opposed to orthodoxy such as Glen, Hugh and Greg. Sometimes we hear leveled comments from people somehow in agreement with the US BDA such as Andrew and Bruce. When we are lucky (and I mean this), we get to hear the mature insights from people like Jim and Mr. Gardner, but it has being a while since we get the official posture from the BDAA and DA administrators. As a norm and in order to have an opinion of my own, I do like to hear from both sides of an argument, otherwise the probability of having a biased information and therefore forming a biased opinion of things is very high. For those not aware of what happened on May 1, 1998, please check bellow a post by Allan Balliet entitled "Changes to this BD list". Such post IMO marked the breaking off of friendly relationships between the BDAA and Allan Balliet and therefore BD-Now. Allan on May 1,1998 wrote: From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 4 22:27:54 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA14740 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:27:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12367; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:22:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA11821 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.179] (pm3mbr4-166-179.intrepid.net [209.190.166.179]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA31287 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:24:34 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <001901bf561f$8d845c60$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:27:43 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Good news Guillermo Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2881 Please refresh me on the facts here, Hugh - 1. Are you and/or JPI involved in any legal fashion with Greg's move to copyright 'BD Preps' or is it solely Greg who is doing this (in a legal fashion) at this time? If so, at what time is this effort to legally acquire this phrase bound to turn the phrase over to the public domain? 2. Are Demeter/BDA still legally challenging the move by Agri-Synth to copyright the phrase 'BD Preps'? 3. Previous to your conversation with Chuck Beedy today, has Demeter or BDA ever hassled you for the use of the word "BIODYNAMIC" in the title of your famous ACRES book "A Biodynamic Farm"? Please let me know about these things so I can start getting some sleep also!! Thanks -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 00:10:44 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16301 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:10:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA20725; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:04:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmx11.iname.net (rmx11.iname.net [165.251.8.201]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17507 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 23:10:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from web07.pub01 (web07.pub01.mail.com [165.251.32.17]) by rmx11.iname.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA06487 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 23:15:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <383888330.947045705190.JavaMail.root@web07.pub01> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 23:15:05 -0500 (EST) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: RE: OFF: Homeopathy Works January Newsletter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.19.147.168 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2882 Allan, are you endorsing this company? I was just wondering today if I should query BDNOW on the best place to purchase a homeopathic "first aid kit"! I seem to recall some discussion of it last year, but perhaps that was in private with you or Joan. I can't remember or refer to old emails, as the computer I was using last year has gone to the great cyber happy hunting grounds. Will appreciate any advice. Pam ------Original Message------ From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sent: January 4, 2000 10:52:50 PM GMT Subject: OFF: Homeopathy Works January Newsletter >Subject: Homeopathy Works January Newsletter >Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:29:08 -0400 >x-sender: whp@mail.intrepid.net >From: whp >To: > > This newsletter is from Washington Homeopathic Products - >http://www.homeopathyworks.com or 800-336-1695. The newsletter offers >info on homeopathy, a special of the month & news about homeopathy. ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 00:48:10 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16601 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA23692; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:42:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA23509 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:38:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.79] (du-148-233-78-79.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNU00AW5L4YYI@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 23:41:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 23:42:58 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Good news Guillermo In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <001901bf561f$8d845c60$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2883 >And like I said, thanks for hanging in there. It looks like you will get >your wish, Namely: > >". . . a democratic but objective BD Association interested in expanding >the orthodox teachings as well as interested in breaking new ground by >supporting innovative research and operations. (I strongly believe >orthodoxy and innovation have their own merits and should coexist within an >operational and goal oriented organizational framework)" > >Warm regards, >Hugh Lovel Dear Hugh: Your news sound very good. I only hope that this could be the beginning of a beautiful and prosperous integration of BD interests. How about bringing back the BDA/DA to BD-Now and getting them interested in doing promotional work in Mexico, as they are suppose to do? Warm greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 00:48:14 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16611 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:48:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA23745; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA23513 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:38:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.79] (du-148-233-78-79.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNU00AW5L4YYI@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 23:41:26 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 23:36:13 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: first post In-reply-to: <003f01bf5701$b962b1a0$afb14ec7@gxstr> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id AAA23516 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2884 > All, Having recently been exposed to the existence of biodynamics I was excited about learning more. Books and websites has helped, but I was very glad to learn of this listserve, in order to find out more about the practical applications of BD. Having only been on this list for a week it seems a bit disconcerting this talk of trademarks, lawyers, suits, threats etc. I guess it was too much to expect this list to be much different than others I am a member of..... I do believe that BD is an important part of the future of man on the earth. I also agree that this trademark debate is important, the future of BD will be effected by this skirmish. Although I may have come into this midstream I feel it would be good to get the views of demeter and the bda on this matter. It is important to keep BD accesibile and available for the masses (thats the goal right?). It also is important the make sure that BD standards are stringent enough to make a difference. I am! new to BD but is demeter the only ones to certify BD? What is the position of the bda on the trademark issue? What problem would bda and demeter have with 'bd preps' and 'bd' being a part of the public domain. (who has trademarked 'organic' or 'organically certified'?) Just questions from a neophyte. Listserves are an interesting forum. They usually are started with one thing in mind but invariably evolve into something (more or less depending on your view) different. They are a reflection of the people who post, the good, the bad, the ugly etc.. As long as the put delete keys on keyboards this should be no problem.. As I am not fond of very long posts so I will end now, but I would like to start another thread: I am in the process of purchasing a home and 25 acres, to plant a fruit orchard and grow food(mainly for my own consumption). I have just been exposed to BD and would like to know what I should do, what I should read next, who I should contact. You! see the word about BD is getting out there, people like myself a it. (More on the spiritual vs agriculture later.) thanks for your indulgence ed sherwood (neophyte) Dear Ed: Can you be a bit more specific with your questions. I would like tooffer my humble help, but would like to know exactly what do you need and where are you at. If you need designing criteria for your new lot, I guess you can get some insights from BD, but your best option IMO would be permaculture, specifically, Bill Mollison's "Permaculture Design Handbook". Let us know, I am sure you'll find good pointers here. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 00:57:40 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16674 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:57:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA24181; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:52:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA24103 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:50:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.19] (r-66.54.alltel.net [166.102.66.54]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id XAA19857 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 23:55:41 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:02:14 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Facing Conflict Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2885 To: Pam DeTray From: Hugh Lovel Subject: RE: Trademark Survey Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: To: Pam DeTray From: Hugh Lovel Subject: RE: Trademark Survey Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: >------Original Message------ >From: Hugh Lovel >The question is do you think I will have to >contend with Demeter >disapproval of my use of the term biodynamic? > >Yes > >Not Certain > >No > > >Hugh, if I had to check a reply it would be "not >certain." However, my intuition tells me that, to >the people involved with the Demeter organization, >you are a "thorn in the side" and running your ad >will be like waving a red flag at a bull. > >Why do you suppose it is that, every time the list >reaches an enlightened level of discourse that >presents BD concepts in such a way that even I can >learn, we find ourselves once again embroiled in >conflict? > >Happy New Year to you and Lorraine. > >Pam DeTray > Dear Pam, I think that is an excellent question. I think you have hit on one of the most important issues. Let me repeat your question, as I suspect a lot of other readers have been thinking it. "Why do you suppose it is that, every time the [BD Now] list reaches an enlightened level of discourse that presents BD concepts in such a way that even I can learn, we find ourselves once again embroiled in conflict?" Well, I think you've hit on something big because as far as I can see you're pretty much right. Every time we reach a high level of discussion we find ourselves staring conflict in the face. As far as I can see this can only mean one thing. Dealing with conflict in a WHOLESOME way is the NEXT thing we are going to have to learn on this list. We are going to have to make wholesome resolution of conflict be our next step in terms of our spiritual progress individually and collectively on this list. How will we do that? I'm not so sure of the details, but I DO know what that means. Wholesome resolution of conflict means generating integrity, finding our common ground, working toward concensus, that kind of stuff. What it does not mean is bringing about schism, divisiveness, impairment and all those things. That means it is no use pointing fingers, calling names making threats, dealing in innuendo and so forth. That means we've got to all of us keep alert that we understand what is going on and ask questions, be truthful, factual, understanding, try to see each other's viewpoints and so on. That will require a real effort to see that personal ambition, illusion and petty jealousy are set aside. We're going to have to live as true anthroposophists in other words, let go of our Ahrimanic and Luciferic impairments and learn to experience the Christ within. If you don't like those terms, okay. Use whatever terms you like and if you are at a loss for terms ask me for help. I've got one of the best thesauruses in print--perhaps the best. I really doesn't matter what terms you use. It will require patience and effort. This is going to be a real challenge that believe it or not we will all immeasurably advance our spiritual evolution by accepting. If you have my book turn to page 171 and read about Jack Horner and basic exercises. We will all have to practice our basic exercises. You can read about it in my book. And if you don't have a copy, I just talked to the publisher and it is being reissued this month. However, I think I can dredge it up on my computer and put the helpful parts on this list. To summarize what is involved in just the barest way, we will all have to strive toward non-judgmental, open-minded, intent observation. We'll need to complete cycles by acknowledgement. And we are going to have to pursue each point all the way until we reach a completion of some kind. Maybe some flaming will occur, I don't know. I hope not. It hasn't so far, has it? Has anyone felt there's been flaming? I don't know. I haven't felt so, but for all I know I've pushed someone's buttons myself. If so, lets hear it. And if I fail to do something in anyone's eyes? That should be noted to clear the air. And likewise with each of us in terms of baring their own heart of their transgressions. Say it, let us observe it without judgement and acknowledge it. We need to do our best to keep the air clear. If someone flames at me I will need to take that with simple non-judgmental, open-minded observation. I will only have to understand and acknowledge it. Above all I must not flame back in response. I'll have to set whatever responses aside other than understanding and acknowledgement. You too. Everyone will have to practice this attitude. Do you have any idea what this will do for us individually and collectively in terms of our spiritual progress? I think that the recurrance of conflict on this list is a clear sign that we need to learn how to deal with conflict if we don't want to fly off this list. Integrity. Wholesomeness. No personal ambitions. No illusions. No petty jealousies. Think of what an amazing woman this is going to turn you into if you learn this. I think integrity must be some kind of prerequisite to learning biodynamic farming, because you're sure right that we seem to keep running into the need for it on this list. This isn't an easy solution. There is nothing automatic about it. There are no real rules. It is going to be a tough challenge. Are you ready for it? Can you hang in there? You do and you're sure to become an even more wonderful woman than you already are. That's the best I can tell you, Regards, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 01:17:49 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA16827 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:17:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA25032; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:11:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d01.mx.aol.com (imo-d01.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.33]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA24886 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:09:03 -0500 (EST) From: Andyschad@aol.com Received: from Andyschad@aol.com by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.0.b5d938ad (4359) for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:13:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.b5d938ad.25a43b01@aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:13:21 EST Subject: Re: Follow the Money [was: Intellectual Property] To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 47 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2886 Hi Woody, how about a bit less sarcasm and more constructive suggestions? Seems like you have an ax to grind...Is it possible for you to act on the board of BDA for example? Maybe there you could be more helpful.. assuming, of course, that's what you want to be. in peace Andreas Pennsylvania From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 01:23:26 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA16870 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:23:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA25189; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:17:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA25121 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.54.alltel.net [166.102.66.54]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id AAA16853; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:19:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:26:30 -0500 To: Demeter@baldcom.net, Demeter@baldcom.net, bdnow@envirolink.org, davbrad@aol.com, ferdy@direct.ca, ANA07968@nifty.com, indrural@bigpond.com, jarc2@alltel.net, male@telcel.net.ve From: Hugh Lovel Subject: US Biodynamic Trademark Discussion, entire file Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2887 Dear Allan and BD Now, Please forward this one to others and other lists. This is the most important news that has come down in the history of American biodynamics. We've finally got the chance to open up the public perception of this revolutionary method of agriculture from the closed, clannish, clubbish, esoteric doctrineness of the past. As long as Greg succeeds in forcing Demeter and the BDA to put their trademark of the term biodynamic in the public domain--where it belongs!--biodynamics can become mainstream. If not, we will ultimately be in trouble on this list and elsewhere, as I clarify below: Read on. Hugh Lovel To Whomever Uses the Term "Biodynamic," It has really hit the fan. I'm forcefully reminded of my original reaction upon finding out about biodynamics 23 years ago. I'd thought, "This is really good farming. It should be the sort of thing that is mainstream, conventional. It shouldn't be relegated to the fringes, labeled with some specialized name! Let the cheaters and poisoners have to explain what THEY are about. Biodynamics is the real agriculture." Back then I let Heinz Grotzke, who was president of the Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association (BDA), talk me out of using biodynamic as a purely generic term. Heinz is a real gem of a fellow who corresponded with me in prison and freely sent me BD literature to read. He argued that in addition to needing the parenting of the BDA, BD agriculture had to identify itself so folks would know it was not more of the same old ruinous conventional stuff. I could see biodynamics was something special, and I rationalized that invoking the name biodynamic at most turns made it more obvious it is something to be investigated. I mentioned this debate between me, Heinz and myself in the introduction to Chapter II of my book, A BIODYNAMIC FARM, published by ACRES, U.S.A. in 1994, to be reissued in January 2000. In many ways I agree with Heinz and biodynamically grown is on all my signs when I retail. It invites comment and educates consumers and farmers in nearby stalls. >At this point, however, the paralytic wrongness of hitching biodynamics to >a single organization is revealed. Biodynamic has to be a generic term >that's increasingly all-embracing without losing its unique goodness. If >it is, sooner or later a majority will see biodynamic as real agriculture >and the word biodynamic will be dropped for the sake of brevity. On the >borders of my thought I knew all along that Heinz was somehow in error, >but I couldn't get it in clear focus. Thanks to Greg Willis, however, it >lit up like Hiroshima at ground zero. > >This is going to take a little more explanation, so hang in there. > >Some BDnow readers may remember last year when Greg Willis waxed >hyperbolic, flaming such harsh invective against several high BD >muckymucks that he ended up self-propelled away from the list. He offended >a whole bunch of people, employing sixth grade insults, threats of >lawsuits at the drop of a hat and such like. It's not the sort of thing I usually admire, but I'm not so much scared by such things as I'm inclined to be wary. I was pretty sure that at the next turn or the one after that I too would be a target of his peculiar posts. I kept my eyes and ears open. It never came to that. All that happened was I wrote to Greg privately and visited him face to face, confronting him particularly about his attack on Steve Moore who was at that time the president of the BDA. His response was I needed to trust him. He had good reasons. He knew what he was doing, and I should just wait and see. Well, Greg may sometimes be short on tact, patience or good taste, or maybe he has an unusual ability to be an asshole when necessary. I don't know. But I can say, knowing him first hand, I like him very much. He's one of the most knowledgeable, perceptive, intuitive, and innovative people I know in all of agriculture. In particular I'm indebted to him for the way he went to work making and using biodynamic horn clay, the mising BD Prep. It was real genius, which is to say he proceeded with intelligence, insight, conviction and a lot of energy. Early on I picked up on his horn clay prep. He sent me samples of several types and I put them to use along with my field broadcaster work. It proved to be the most important new development since Steiner's Ag Course 75 years ago. I was so impressed with the difference it made in my biodynamic farm that I just about moved California to get him to speak and teach at my Georgia Biodynamic Conference last September. He came and I wasn't disappointed. He was superb. It would be hard to find a more caring, hard working and extremely insightful presenter of BD agriculture, though at this conference we also had Harvey Lisle who has 42 years experience in this field and still is one of the most innovative and forward looking people in American biodynamics. Also there was myself (on my home turf) with my sense for the unity of spirit and matter, the wonderfully enthusiastic Lee McWhorter of JPI which is the backbone of BD in America, Derek Trowbridge who, as his slides and his wines showed, is a very accomplished BD wine grower, Jeff Poppen the Barefoot Farmer who is living proof that farming is fun as well as a religious experience, and so on. The only thing lightweight about this conference was the amount of publicity I got out ahead of time, but that made it a more intimate experience for the lower than usual attendance. I'm pretty sure Greg won the respect of everyone who attended, and I believe one or two BDnow readers posted remarks to the list after the conference that they came partly to see if Greg was anything like he seemed in that series of postings--and found he was not. His insights and demonstrations of superb finesse in stirring preps were so excellent they should have all been on film, and as I understand it, Lee McWhorter captured a fair bit of it on some reasonably professional video recordings and will have these available. He's given me copies but I haven't had a chance to view them yet. So that's part of the background. There's more. Back a few years ago there was a movement by the BDA to trademark the word "Biodynamic" and its alias, "Bio-Dynamic." Chuck Beedy, the BDA Director, and Jean Yeager, who is the present President of the BDA, explained this to myself and other attendees at a Kimberton CSA Conference as an effort to protect the term from use by just anyone who might decide to market their latest coal tar perfume or synthetic rubber sneakers as biodynamic. After all there was a real history and tradition behind this term and the idea was the word maybe should be protected from cheap knock offs, as has, of course, occurred with "organic" and "natural." Down at the gut level I didn't like this idea and was reminded of my original feeling that at some point we needed to make this method of agriculture so mainstream, so ubiquitous that use of the term "biodynamic" became passe and the bad farmers ended up with the extra nomenclature. I suppose I had a queasy premonition that this was yet another initiative that would keep BD out on the far fringes. However, I'm not usually a vociferous opponent of things that I can't pick out the flaw in and only feel uneasy about. I usually rationalize and go along with things though I know enough to keep my eyes open. When I grew up in the newspaper business I always pasted up ads and copy by eye rather than using t-square, right-triangle and centering rule. When I spent four solid weeks cutting my driveway with a wheelbarrow and shovel, I used no transit, string lines, stakes or tape measures. And I gauge how much of this or that to add to the sauce by eye with no cups or measuring spoons. If I had a dozer, no doubt I'd operate it by the seat of my pants. I can be pretty perceptive, but I'm prone to dispense with using the finest tools available for exact knowledge unless I believe it really matters--like when adjusting the cylinder clearances of a web-offset Hantcho magazine press for the perfect thickness of ink on glossy stock or when using magnification and a level to read the meniscus in a burette while titrating an acid to four decimal places plus or minus three ten-thousandths. In this case I didn't ask someone with real expertise in trademark law what all the implications were of trademarking a term like "biodynamic." But Greg did. I have to hand it to him. One of the things he found out was if the BDA ever comes after anyone for using its trademark it can't afford to stop or it's discriminatory prosecution. It's like sliding straight down a deep mineshaft on a quarter inch greased cable. There's no stopping. It's the road to rigid orthodoxy. I grant that someone like Disney Studios can afford to protect their trademarks on Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck in court. And the Demeter Association could probably afford to protect a trademark like "Demeter Certified Biodynamic" because it already is so narrow it's defensible. But that was not done, and the spectre of selective, preferential prosecution ensures they cannot let anyone slide and use the term biodynamic without the little circle symbol and a paid up subscription to Demeter's qualifications. It's one hell of a can of worms. Ultimately they'll have to make all authors and publishers conform, the members of this list, and anyone not certified biodynamic by Demeter. I more or less believed back when it first was explained to me that pretty nearly all if not all the officers of the BDA or Demeter didn't intend to go after anyone farming with some understanding--whatever it might be--of Steiner's insights into agriculture. But admittedly I'm uneasy with anything that paves the path to enforced orthodoxy because that means stagnation and ultimately death. It certainly doesn't have any place in biodynamic agriculture, as orthodox biodynamic is the ripest of oxymorons. You can read the details in Greg's documents following my post. It's in the usual mind-numbing legalese, which I only read when I have to--but I read this. One has to have some talent at bringing it to life, which my long post is an effort to help with. Greg brought the whole thing to a head by applying for a trademark on the term BD Preps since that's another generic term of long history just as is biodynamic. I happen to know that Greg has the highest admiration and praise for Hugh Courtney who after Josephine Porter's death took on a long and arduous job bringing JPI into being to ensure the BD preps would be available to anyone for the good of the earth, even the most benighted souls with the blackest hearts in the most stygian darkness at the deepest of black holes. But the point is ensuring that biodynamics grows. It is masterful how Greg perceived the need and step by step brought things to a head. On behalf of JPI, the BDA and Demeter, Aleen Rothschild-Seidel, Attorney at Law, Washington, DC, petitioned the US Patent and Trademark Office requesting an extension of time to oppose the Agri-Synthesis, Inc. application for trademark on the term BD Preps--once on November 26, 1999 and again on December 28, 1999. It is the December 28th request that really tears it. In the second paragraph the silo opens and the ICBM appears. This paragraph starts by saying the Demeter Association certifies Biodynamic farms and processors and owns the certification mark BIODYNAMIC, Registration No. 2,286,984 and they are opposing Agri-Synthesis, Inc.'s application to trademark the term BD Preps. Shades of nuclear brinksmanship. In other words, they got their trademark and they don't want Greg to get any ammo to fight back if or rather when they lower the boom on his use of the term biodynamic. Considering the present course that seems inevitable. I leave it to readers to draw their own conclusions. I highly recommend this as I believe folks will think of many things I haven't. So far I see it as essential to living in good faith for the Demeter Association to place their trademark of the term Biodynamic in the public domain, thus protecting the future of biodynamics from orthodoxy and stagnation. And going 75 years with roughly 50 Demeter certified BD farms here in the US seems stagnant to me. If the Demeter Association wants a trademark they should apply for something suitable like "Demeter Certified Biodynamic." In fervent sincerity, Hugh Lovel Author of A BIODYNAMIC FARM, published by ACRES, U.S.A. Union Agricultural Institute 8475 Dockery Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 Greg's post: So. Everyone out there in biodynamic-land thinks that each of us has the right to use the word "biodynamic" as it relates to any product or produce we make and/or sell - no strings attached. Well, think again folks. Read it and weep (attachments). Two years ago I tried and tried to get BD people to realize what demeter and the bda were up to. Unfortunately what I predicted has now come true. They've notified me, through their attorney, of their intent to file a lawsuit against us unless we (Agri-Synthesis, Inc,) withdraw our application for a trademark on the words "BD PREPS" with the Patent and Trademark Office. In my humble opinion, guess who's next? You are. Read on. It's not just about "BD PREPS". It's about you. I will put the correspondence we received from their attorney, Aleen Rothschild-Seidel, up on our website at http://www.agsyn.com as soon as I can. She says she represents demeter, JPI and the bda against Agri-Synthesis, Inc. and me personally. It says in part: "The Demeter association certifies Biodynamic farms and processors and is the owner of the certification mark BIODYNAMIC, Registration No.2,286,984." ... "The Demeter Association is opposing the registration of the mark [BD PREPS] on behalf of the association and also on behalf of its certified Biodynamic farms and processors." ... "Consumers interested in Biodynamic farming and gardening associate the term BD PREPS with the high-quality goods produced by the JPI. If Agri-Synthesis[sic] uses this phrase for its products, there is a high likihood that the public will be confused as to the source of the goods. It is unfair competition as well as an infringement of JPI's common law trademark rights for Agri-Synthesis[sic] to 'pass off' its products as those of JPI or to capitalize on the good will created by JPI over the years. It would furthermore tarnish the reputation of JPI if the Agri-Synthesis[sic] goods were confused with JPI's." "We request that Agri-Synthesis [sic] immediately cease and disist using the mark BD PREPS on its products and that it withdraw its application for aregistration of the mark in order to avoid potentially costly litigation." We believe that we have a very strong case and that we will win the trademark rights to "BD PREPS" should we choose to pursue it. At first we were reasonably certain of this (or we would not have made application) but in the past 24 hours, new information has come to us which indicates that (a) JPI was not the first to use nor publish the phrase "BD PREPS" which eliminates their claim of originality (prior usage by others doing so) and (b) at least one and possibly several other people have been selling "BD PREPS" in the United States over the years and neither JPI, demeter nor the bda ever objected to the usage of the term, an action (or, more properly, neglect) which by definition vitiates their claim of exclusivity. This makes our case much stronger. In addition, we now have in our possession extremely damaging evidence of neglect and deception which we believe mortally wounds any potential claims and objections they might have, evidence which we will reveal through the proper venue when appropriate. Therefore, despite their demands and threats, we will most likely vigorously pursue our application as originally planned. It is neither our intent nor desire to tear the biodynamic community asunder on this issue. However, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Our intent and desire is to ferret out the truth and, when discovered, take appropriate and proper action that is for the good of all biodynamic agriculture. Whether or not "BD PREPS" should be trademarked is the exclusive prerogative of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, not the bda, not demeter, not JPI and certainly not some high-priced Washington D.C. lawyer who thinks she knows how to sling the legal bullshit in the hope that she can scare us into withdrawing our application. It is our opinion that, for whatever reason, she has her facts wrong and we can prove it. (JPI has never attempted to register "BD PREPS" as a trademark. Nor has demeter or the bda attempted to register "BD PREPS". Further musings: even though demeter, JPI and the bda are separate non-profit corporations, there are board members who have a seat on two different boards e.g. anne mendenhall who sits on both demeter and the bda. I wonder if ms. mendehall votes the bda member's dues over to support demeter, or does she abstain. If she does, in my opinion, it's sort of lining one's own pocket, in a manner of speaking. There is also a question of whether or not demeter can maintian its status as a 501(c)3 nonprofit if they own a trademark for which they charge for the usage. On the other hand, if they don't charge, would it be a restraint of trade if they limit the usage of "BIODYNAMIC" exclusively to those whom they certify? Hmmm. But I digress. Interesting questions, though.) We will, of course, make a formal objection with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office on the registration of the word "BIODYNAMIC" which we consider generic owing to the fact that it has been in use in this country since at least 1938. And wwe encourage everyone to contact the PTO and do the same. But this is not enough. Agri-Synthesis, Inc. has already spent over $5,000.00 in legal fees trying to head off this disaster for you and all of us in the field of biodynamic agriculture, and to make it possible to expand biodynamics in the United States and the world, which in my opinion as you know, demeter and the bda have woefully failed to do. What is at stake here is not only your future as a biodynamic farmer selling your produce as "biodynamic" but of all biodynamic gardners, farmers and practitioners in the United States. This is, in my opinion, the battle for the future of biodynamic agriculture in the United States. Although we are confident that we will convince the PTO to deny the registration of "BIODYNAMIC" by demeter, Agri-Synthesis, Inc. cannot carry this burden alone. We need your help. Demeter/bda/JPI must be made to understand that there is widespread opposition to their co-opting the commonly accepted, used and understood term "BIODYNAMIC" and that their registration is a blatent and cynical attempt to control your business and mine. The word "BIODYNAMIC" has been published and in use in this country since at least 1938 and is commonly understood to describe a generally understood practice of farming. That fact that demeter would even consider trying to legally control this word by registering the WORD!!! as a trademark, in an extremely broadly worded definition (see the attachment) that encompasses virtually everything grown biodynamically in the United States, is, in my opinion, reprehensible, irresponsible and short-sighted and will cause the existing schism in the biodynamic community to go deeper and wider than ever before. The consequences for humanity are alarming, at the very least. So we plead with you to help resolve this problem. We know that you and all of the BD practitioners understand that if demeter/bda/JPI go after me and are successful, you're next. It's as the Presbyterian minister said of Hitler in Nazi Germany. To paraphrase, "When they came for the Jews, I didn't object because I was not Jewish; when they came for the trade unionists, the homosexuals and the Gypsys, I did nothing because I was not one of them. When they came after the others, I did not defend them either. Finally, when they came for me, there was no one left to defend me." Do we really want this to happen to biodynamic agriculture in the United States? What sort of example will this set for the rest of world to follow? Do you now see the consequences? I predicted it was going to happen two years ago and now it HAS happened. What does it take to get everyone's attention? Please understand something very important here. This is not about our application for the use of the phrase "BD PREPS". This is about YOUR right to use the word "BIODYNAMIC" freely and without restraint as you and others have done in this country for over 60 years. Demeter/bda/JPI cannot selectively enforce their trademark rights. They cannot sue me but not YOU because that allows me to sue them for selective enforcement, restraint of trade, malicious prosecution and so on. They have to sue EVERYBODY or they lose their right to sue ANYBODY. It never ends. The ULTIMATE Pandora's Box which will, in my humble opinion, ultimately destroy the biodynamic agriculture movement in this country, not to mention, in my opinion, backfire on demeter, the bda AND JPI. In my humble opinion, as I have stated repeatedly over the past two years, for biodynamic agriculture, this legal manuvering and abuse of the trademark process by demeter/bda to gain by whatever means, ethical or unethical, absolute control over biodynamic agriculture in this county, with the attendant denial of our right to use the word 'biodynamic" with the sale of our products, without the prior approval of the Demeter Association, Inc. (for which I would assume we and you would pay cash money) is the single most destructive act, and most self-destructive act, in the history biodynamic agriculture in the United States and must be put to stop now. Greg Willis President Agri-Synthesis, Inc. Content-Type: text/html; name="ifetch4" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ifetch4" Content-Base: "http://trademarks.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/if etch4?ENG+ALL+3+948440+0+0+2681+F+1 +1+1+NO%2f2286984" (1 of 1) >> >>Word MarkBIODYNAMIC Pseudo MarkBIO-DYNAMIC Owner Name(REGISTRANT) >>Demeter Association, Inc. Owner AddressBritt Road Aurora NEW YORK 13026 >>CORPORATION MASSACHUSETTS Attorney of RecordALEEN ROTHSCHILD-SEIDEL >>Serial Number75-323736 Registration Number2286984 Filing Date07/14/1997 >>Registration Date10/19/1999 Mark Drawing Code(1) TYPED DRAWING >>RegisterPRINCIPAL Other Registration Info.1999266 Published for >>Opposition07/27/1999 Type of MarkCERTIFICATION MARK Other DataThe >>certification mark as used by authorized persons certifies that the >>organic agricultural products or applications have been grown and >>processed in accordance with guidelines set out in the attached >>"guidelines and standards for the grower for demeter biodynamic >>certification and Organic-in-Transition to Biodynamic." These guidelines >>set high standards for certifying organic products, and cover matters >>such as building natural soil fertility; using natural methods to >>increase crop resistance to fungal, bacterial and pest attacks; raising >>livestock; and storage and processing. The guidelines prohibit use of >>chemically synthesized fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, fumigants, >>hormones, antibiotics, growth regulators or genetically engineered >>organisms >> International ClassA Goods and Servicesagricultural products and >>applications, including various types of agricultural food and fiber >>products and processed food products; DATE OF FIRST USE: 1985.07.00; DATE >>OF FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 1985.07.00 To: BDNow From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: >Hugh- > >I'm assuming that you don't support the idea of Greg Willis trademarking "BD >Preps". After all, that is no better than Demeter owning "Biodynamic". > Assumptions are treacherous, but you may assume that in this case since it is absolutely true. The next few installments of this saga have not gone out on the net, but I think they will show a resolution to this question. However, what Greg did brought this pot to a boil, and I support him--until the stew is cooked. If there are any sides here, I have no choice short of suicide but to be on Greg's. There may not be any sides. Let's wait and see. >Ok, so what happens if the BDA does not stop everyone who uses the term >"Biodynamic" without their permission? Do they loose their trademark >rights? They get sued for megabucks worth of damages. They would keep their trademark, and if someone else found them discriminating again they would pay damages again. This doesn't take away their trademark but it makes it a heavy liability. The real problem here is once they start, Demeter can never stop prosecuting ANYONE who violates their trademark. It would soon be the end of Demeter, which is why I question whether there are any sides to this. > > >At what level of usage of the name "Biodynamic" does it take qualify as >something that the BDA must prosecute in order to avoid these concequences? >ie: Someone at a farmer's market claiming to sell BD food that isn't >Demeter certified? I don't know. That is, they would have to go down the list forever and I couldn't say where it might stop. > >Mike Majorowicz Pretty nasty, eh, Mike? But keep tuned. This will get so much better you won't believe it. Warm regards, Hugh Lovel To: Sanet From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Biodynamic Trademark: Parts II & I Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: News Flash! Up until now the scientific method of farming and gardening known as biodynamic agriculture has been rather clannish, to say the least. This is deplorable and it is high time for change, as biodynamics is by far the best of agriculture--regenerative, self-sufficient, highest quality, diversified, inexpensive, do-able, the whole nine yards. Above all it is spiritual, but it has hidden this light under a bushel and at this point in the states, under a trademark or mark. This post and one preceeding it are an effort to see that--without litigation--this trademark is placed in the public domain where it is free for all and cannot again be privatized. If after reading this you would like a copy of the preceeding post this may be obtained by asking me for it return e-mail. If you know of anyone else--and any lists or publications--who would be interested in this news please forward them this post. Translate it into every language. Tell this story everywhere. It is by far the hottest occurrence in the 75 year history of biodynamic agriculture. Now? Enjoy. Hugh Lovel, Author of A BIODYNAMIC FARM, published by ACRES, U.S.A. Union Agricultural Institute Blairsville, Georgia Agdoc writes: >Interesting issues and commentary. I will need to think carefully about this >one. > >Some initial thoughts: a comment and a question: > >Comment: If this is the >we are in a sad state of affairs. The real story about biodynamics is not >about who names or trademarks, but that this is a revolutionary, >spiritual practice. What have we come to if haggling about names is >important. Sounds to me like we've lost the meaning here folks, not >dissimilar to the way in which we have forgotten the real issue around >Christmas. > >If no one should trademark names, like biodynamic, etc. (and maybe they >shouldnt - good point) why is Greg wanting to trademark himself? > >Andrew Dear Andrew, I'm sure others may have just this sort of thoughts and questions. I'm not surprised these things haven't been clear from what I wrote. It is hard to make sort of thing obvious without thinking at great length. To address your last paragraph--the question--first, "Why is Greg wanting to trademark himself?" Let's be very clear about this. Greg Willis is NOT wanting to trademark BD preps for himself. If he does trademark it this will be to put it in the public domain, which means anyone has access and no one can privatize it. He only did what was necessary to show Demeter--and everyone else--how wrong it was to hold such power. Sooner or later it would be used, and Greg couldn't afford to get caught out on a limb. He took two years and spent a lot of money setting this scenario up in order to get the Demeter Association's undivided attention. In the process he set things straight in the whole biodynamic community. Greg gave everyone a wake up call. By the end of this letter I hope it will be clear why it horribly injures biodynamics in the eyes of the world to go around saying "Steiner said" all the time. However, the reason it is important to rescue the term biodynamic from the clutches of orthodoxy is to preserve its roots, which are wonderfully rich. Steiner's agriculture course is a true marvel, and he deserves credit for his genius. So on that note, just one little Steiner quote here: "The most important thing is to make the benefits of our agricultural preparations available to the largest possible areas over the entire Earth, so that the Earth may be healed and the nutritive quality of its produce improved in every respect. That should be our first objective." Has the Demeter Association done this? Or the Biodynamic Association? No. This is 75 years later. This fact alone should clear the air, as the real issue here is integrity. What right do they have to trademark the term biodynamic and then use it as a threat against Greg Willis? It's ironic that Greg had to apply for a trademark on the term BD preps in order to engage Demeter and the BDA through JPI, because the Josephine Porter Institute (JPI) long was the sole shining light in America in regards to making these agricultural preparations and getting them into widespread use. However, out of Greg's four tries at trademarking different terms, BD preps turned out to be the one that provoked the Demeter Association to use their own trademark as a threat. This is a pre-emptive strike, and it showed how true it is that power corrupts. The Demeter Association should never have had such power in the first place. It is too bad JPI had to be involved. Since I know Greg has the highest admiration for Hugh Courtney and JPI, I asked him, what if JPI joined him in the trademark application for BD preps, expressly placing this term in the public domain? "I love it." Greg responded. That would put the ball squarely in the Demeter and BDA ballcourt. Greg is hopeful the JPI board will agree and save lawyers fees. If JPI does, Demeter should also place their trademark of biodynamic in the public domain where it belongs. Consider. This already cost Greg thousands he could ill afford. He retained the best patent lawyers in the country and invested a couple years effort. But as one of the leading innovators in biodynamics he's all too aware he's the target of orthodoxy. Fortunately he's a junkyard dog. I'm not, at least not usually. You realize since Demeter's waved its petard at Greg, I'm next. My field broadcasters get the cost of applying the biodynamic preparations--including Greg's horn clay--down to two dollars per acre per year or less and they make it easy to cover vast acreages. I could show you the Demeter newsletter stating that these devices are not approved as the sole means of applying the preps. That's how far I got with many years of patience and diplomacy. There was a time one could not be Demeter certified while using a field broadcaster [also known as a cosmic pipe]. While I would agree that the best biodynamic results come from a combination of broadcasting and spraying, the broadcasters sure do a lot better than spraying once or twice a year. Greg and I both contend certification should be based on results not rules, but we're battling orthodoxy. Now maybe, you can see my stake in this. I'm next, so you may be sure I'm in Greg's corner. Also I hope to find the time soon to write a book on advanced biodynamics. It is much needed, and I want to use the term biodynamic without having orthodoxy come down on my head. Now to address your comment, which I think couldn't be more right-on-the-money. I said this was the most important news in American biodynamic history, and you replied that if this was true we are in a sad state of affairs. My agreement is like the General Sherman tree in Yosemite's forests, like Mt. Everest amongst the Himalayas, like Jupiter amongst the planets. I couldn't agree with you more. This IS the hottest news in the entire 75 years of biodynamics and biodynamics IS in a sorry state. To think, in 75 years only 50 certified biodynamic farms in the whole United States. How come so few? I've raised this issue of why more people aren't practicing biodynamics before. Your past response, as you will remember, was maybe they are not ready for it. I didn't like that response, as you probably also remember. But you're like a brother to me. I respect you a lot, and I gave it thought. When I did it was like a dense fog lifting and a brilliant June day beaming through. You were 100% right. Most people were not ready. Sunrise! An epiphany! When I closed my mouth I was lost in thought an indefinite time. WHY weren't people ready? In order to show why this trademark issue answers that question I must tell a story, so bear with me. I discovered long ago the importance of spotting misidentifications and examining assumptions, prejudices and beliefs. For Steiner buffs, he takes nearly thirty pages to belabor this point--with a big front end loader--at the start of ESOTERIC SCIENCE. It's essential for penetrating to the crux. What were my assumptions? Initially I assumed you meant very few people were advanced enough. But, you didn't say that. Thinking back, you said it as though you shrugged, mystified. You simply saw they weren't ready. When I encountered biodynamics I almost wasn't ready either. This wasn't because I didn't want to grow the best food. It wasn't because I denied the unity of spirit and matter. Both of us, of course, encounter people who don't study biodynamics either because they couldn't care less or because of an idee fixe that spirit and matter in no way conjoin. But that still leaves an awful lot of people. Maybe a majority. It was wrong of me to assume you were looking down on people when you said they weren't ready. But what worried me was my simultaneous impression that you thought folks might take a thousand years, maybe two, getting ready. Here's my story: As a research psychologist I had to face the problem of improving peoples' strength of character. We discovered how, with biofeedback, to peel away enough misidentifications, assumptions, prejudices and beliefs to deal with a person's aberations of will and thinking, a prerequisite to repairing the ego which bridges between these two. The result was enabling, sometimes fabulously enabling. [For readers with long-time biodynamic backgrounds, we freed people from Lucifer (the fallen angel) and Ahriman (the demon of the underworld) and restored the Christ within. Before biodynamics I never heard it expressed this way, but does the brand of shop talk really matter?] Normally this took close to 100 hours intensive biofeedback, though there may be faster ways. Most tedious was working through all the misidentification, assumption, prejudice and belief as I mentioned. Without this it is virtually impossible to deal with impotence and hallucination--to say nothing of imperfection. But once we got someone to the bare ego and cleared it? Great stuff! The trouble was case loss. A person might get free of all their demons and a week later have them back and tougher ones too. Occasionally I wished we'd left things alone. I thought the problem was insufficient strength of character, which I called force of personality. Moral fiber. Biofeedback could do some wonderful things, but it didn't seem to make a weak ego strong. I always think of John Wayne when I think of this indominability known as guts. Whether or not he had this quality in everyday life, he knew how to portray it. Of course, there's nothing that goes with guts like food. Highly developed guts can only come from highly developed food--food that is a far cry from the crude, watery pulp available. My colleagues couldn't see outside the city, so rather than argue I took off for Georgia to grow food that built strength of character. Of course I knew nothing about growing this sort of food. Who did? I was a university product, but strangely the best educated person in my life was my father, who only finished eight grade. So, even though I talked with the county agent and experiment station scientists, I also drew out the clerks at the coops and the farmers along the road. In a year's farming and educing these folks on farming topics I knew they didn't have what I sought, and I spent the winter praying. By spring I found biodynamics. Unquestionably, I knew I'd found my grail when I read Pfeiffer's preface to the Adams translation of Steiner's agriculture lectures. To quote: "When I asked him [Steiner] whether the new methods should be started on an experimental basis, he replied: 'The most important thing is to make the benefits of our agricultural preparations available to the largest possible areas over the entire Earth, so that the Earth may be healed and the nutritive quality of its produce improved in every respect. That should be our first objective. The experiments can come later.' He obviously thought that the proposed methods should be applied at once. "This can be understood against the background of a conversation I had with Dr. Steiner en route from Stuttgart to Dornach shortly before the agriculture course was given. He had been speaking of the need for a deepening of esoteric life, and in this connection mentioned certain faults typically found in spiritual movements. I then asked, 'How can it happen that the spiritual impulse, and especially the inner schooling, for which you are constantly providing stimulus and guidance bear so little fruit? Why do the people concerned give so little evidence of spiritual experience, despite of all their efforts? Why, worst of all, is the will for action, for the carrying out of these spiritual impulses, so weak?' I was particularly anxious to get an answer to the question as to how one could build a bridge to active participation and the carrying out of spiritual intentions without being pulled off the right path by personal ambition, illusions and petty jealousies; for these were the negative qualities Rudolf Steiner had named as the main inner hindrances. Then came the surprising and thought-provoking answer: 'This is a problem of nutrition. Nutrition as it is today does not supply the strength necessary for manifesting the spirit in physical life. A bridge can no longer be built from thinking to will and action. Food plants no longer contain the forces people need for this.' "A nutritional problem which, if solved, would enable the spirit to become manifest and realize itself in human beings! With this as a background one can understand why Dr. Steiner said that 'the benefits of the biodynamic preparations should be made available as quickly as possible to the largest possible areas of the entire Earth, for the Earth's healing.'" Try to imagine my thoughts. This biodynamic stuff was real familiar. I'd dealt on the one hand with the aberations of perverted and diseased wills, which Steiner called personal ambition and possession by Ahriman. On the other hand I'd dealt with the dementias of disengaged and deranged thinking which Steiner called illusions and possession by Lucifer. Pretty good nomenclature. Being enthralled by demons! This guy, Steiner, knew what he was talking about! We would strip away a person's impairments until we got to the ego, which bridged between an individual's power and their essence. This core of one's being is what some Christians call the Rock. Steiner was big on Christian terms, but I haven't read enough of his work to know if he uses this one. Sorry. I haven't spent as much time studying Steiner as life. To tell you the truth I think it's wrong when folks in anthroposophy study more Steiner than life. We live in a sorry world where virtually everyone suffers from invalidation and impairment of ego. In this obstructed condition the light of the ego appears to the inner eye as a wheel of fire, a gem or a sparkling Sun. It is tragically beautiful and associated with one's ideals, as well as the chakras. Relieving the obstructions and integrating the ego with biofeedback yields an unimpaired ego state where people can serenely set petty jealousy aside, no problem. Steiner talked about this as an inner Christ experience which united the two polarities of will and thought. Of course as I'd found out and as Steiner pointed out to Pfeiffer on the train to Dornach, it didn't do this too well when one's food didn't contain the necessary forces. Imagine. Here was the agricultural wisdom I sought. My solution to stabilizing case gain so that people got out from under all their stupidity, shruged off personal ambitions and illusions and set petty jealousies aside--and kept it that way. Biodynamics, eh? But, you know what? As I investigated I kept running into all the signs and manifestations of a true believer cult. My training in psychology was at the Personal Creative Freedoms Foundation in Los Angeles, founded by a fellow named Jack Horner. Just a regular guy who chain smoked until it killed him. A brilliant fellow mind you, but just a regular human being. Guess what the first required reading for our course was? Eric Hoffer's THE TRUE BELIEVER. We had to read the book and write a report on it before we could go on with the course. Horner took it most seriously. It wasn't a big book, but Hoffer knew everything necessary to identify and steer clear of true believer cults. The more I studied this method of farming the more I wished someone would require everyone to study Hoffer before renewing their membership in the BD Association. I kept running into people in biodynamics, and its parent movement, anthroposophy, who needed a six week course on the subject. Or more. Sure, if I pushed a little folks would put a lid on their Steiner worship. But I was disgusted by the true believer atmosphere. Whatever happened to growing food sufficient to nourish highly developed egos--bridges, unimpaired and clear, betwixt the will and thinking? So there it is, Andrew. I, Hugh Lovel, came close to not being ready for biodynamics. There's no telling how many others came along, far too advanced to get involved with a true belief trip. Without having my full-blown mission impelling them to put up with the hero worship and paralysis going on in biodynamics they kept right on going. Like I said, a fellow needs to look at his assumptions. At first I thought you meant people weren't sufficiently evolved to study biodynamics, and I didn't see it that way. It's terrible to disparage someone in thought like I did you, and I apologize. The truth is, ever so many people are far too evolved for biodynamics. I've felt it speaking and exhibiting at conventions. It doesn't take much "eau de truebelief" before there's a bad vibe in most peoples' eyes, ears, nose and throat. People involved with cults and true beliefs mostly are inapt thinkers looking for someone to think for them--along with some administrators seeking a sinecure. Eric Hoffer knew. This is not who we need in biodynamics. It's a new millenium--high time biodynamics grows up. You're so right. People aren't ready for biodynamics. Little wonder. It's time we start teaching agriculture from our own spiritual insights without turning around every ten minutes and genuflecting to someone 75 years dead. At my Blairsville Southeast Biodynamic Conference last September someone from New York had this question during a panel discussion with Harvey Lisle, myself, Greg Willis, Derek Trowbridge and Lee McWhorter. "What happened??" he said. "When I first found out about biodynamics I was blown away with what this guy, Steiner, knew back in 1924. But when I went looking for what had been done with this knowledge since, it was like biodynamics had fallen into a time warp! I couldn't believe it!" Well the person who asked this question encountered biodynamics by reading ACRES, U.S.A. and attending my conference. I greatly fear had he encountered it many other places he would have known what was happening to biodynamics and gone the other way. Thanks for your comment, Andrew. I've been 23 years wanting to get this off my chest. I fear there's not many like myself that would have stuck it out so long. Maybe I was that one in ten million that heard the call so unmistakably I couldn't walk away. Most people keep on trucking. As you so aptly put it, "The real story about biodynamics is not about who "owns" names or trademarks, but that this is a revolutionary, spiritual practice. What have we come to if haggling about names is important? Sounds to me like we've lost the meaning here folks, not dissimilar to the way in which we have forgotten the real issue around Christmas." So true! Once again I could not possibly agree more. The real story about biodynamics is: IT'S A TRULY REVOLUTIONARY SPIRITUAL PRACTICE. For the first time in the 23 years since I encountered biodynamics I have the chance to tell that story to everyone, which is what I've done in this post. I've just told the big secret of biodynamics. It's a revolutionary spiritual practice. You and I both go around saying it everywhere and it falls on deaf ears. Why? Until Greg brought this trademark issue to a head and lanced the poisonous carbuncle this story could not be told. There was always a thick atmosphere of a central organization with an orthodox code owning biodynamics. Shades of Demeter trademarking biodynamic. Eric Hoffer would have called this a true believer atmosphere. This is the antithesis of biodynamic. It's rigidity. That's exactly what Jack Horner taught us to avoid. Though Horner had nothing to do with Steiner he taught virtually the same spiritual truths--with no greater success I might add because people needed to eat biodynamic food. There's an unwritten orthodoxy in all this "Steiner said" stuff and it's oppressive. Steiner said, "Lucifer and Ahriman and Christ." Well, whoopee-do! These are wonderfully expressive, colorful terms, but there's all kinds of other ways of talking about reality and we don't have to say what Steiner said. This is reality! It's commonplace and everyone experiences it! When the Demeter Association threatened Greg Willis with its biodynamic trademark we reached the limit. This could hardly be truer since it is highly unlikely anyone in the world understands biodynamics better than Greg. It takes one to know one, so I consider I'm the next target, and it will go from there. You're not far from the top of the list yourself, Andrew. What we have here, everyone, is a watershed event, which is why I called it the "most important news in American biodynamic history." If Demeter formally places the term biodynamic in the public domain we may see biodynamics taught in the universities. At last! Warmest regards, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: >Dear Hugh, > >Your very, very long post has many points in it that you seem to be trying >to make. Thank you. However, most of it seems to be an effort at pursuading >us that somehow Demeter USA (and others perhaps) are keeping people from >using the term biodynamic. The only action I have heard of is that Greg >Willis has tried to trademark the term and that Demeter has >objected. I believe the Greg Willis thing is going to ensure that Demeter or the BDA can't trademark the term BD preps like they did the term biodynamic. But let's wait and see. Negotiations are going on for JPI and Hugh Courtney and myself tojoin together to trademark this for the public domain so it can never be made private property. We'll have to see about that. The fact remains that Demeter HAS trademarked the term biodynamic. That's an estabalished fact, and yes, I'm trying to persuade people it is a fact and that it is of tremendous significance. > >I have never heard of Demeter or anyone else, keeping anyone from using the >term biodynamic (or similar terms) in good faith. It seems as though Demeter >has the responsibility to promote and protect biodynamics, but in a very >loosely defined manner. If someone were to try and trademark one of these >names, it seems reasonable that Demeter would object. Are there any other >facts we are not privy to that would explain the need for all this legal >activity? Seems like a diversion from all the good work we need to be doing. >To my knowledge - maybe I am naive - no one (from Demeter or elsewhere) has >ever kept anyone from making preps, farming biodynamically, etc. I've addressed this in a parallel post entitled OPERTUNITY. Print it out so you can follow along with this one because you're right. Time is of the essence and I have precious little to waste. > >If biodynamics is a light under a bushel, as you write, then certainly it >has not been Demeter or the BDA that has kept it from shining. They may not >have been the best promoters or entrepreneurs, but they have been steadily >making biodynamics available to the North American public since 1938. Books, >tapes, conferences, research, the journal. If anyone can do it better, no >one is standing in the way. I dont like all the decisions the BDA or Demeter >USA has made over the years, but as someone who has been involved for over >25 years now, both on the inside and on the outside of these organizations >and as a farmer who has benefitted from them, I can attest that there is no >evil intent on the part of the people involved in Demeter USA, the North >American BDA, JPI or any of the several other biodynamic groups in North >America. They are all good, hard working people, most of whom have spent >their lives working in the garden and out in the field. I addressed this in my long post, Biodynamic Trademark. What Demeter and the BDA have done is create an atmosphere I called "eau de truebelief." You say that certainly they have not kept the light of biodynamics under a bushel. I say that certainly they have. These are two opinions. I guess one has to try they out and build enough familiarity with what goes on to form one's own opinion. Your opinion is the currently prevailing one I'm afraid. I don't doubt it will be an uphill climb to gain acceptance for my opinion. I'm trying to persuade people that creating this aura of mystery, this "eau de truebelief", this system of you have to farm by this certain rote proceedure outlined in our Demeter manual to be biodynamic is stifiling the development of biodynamics.I'm contending Demeter and the BDA are throttling the progress of biodynamics. I'm certain of it, but that's my opinion expressed on this list and nobody who doesn't want to has to believe me. They can look at Demeter and the BDA and see what fine folks they are. Well, they ARE fine folks. They have done a lot for biodynamics over the years. I'm not trying to disparage them. But it is my contention that they are stifling biodynamics. For example, my contention is that certifying by rote proceedure is killing biodynamics. You live out there by Greg so you know that with his "AgriSynthesis Certified Biodynamic" program he's got a manual that's much, much thicker than Demeter's. He doesn't tell his clients they only need to spray a few times a year, because what he tells them is you've got to spray as many times as necessary to bring your vineyard to LIFE. His program gets results and gets them fast. Demeter's program holds people back. I'm telling it like it is, Andrew, and you live there and can report back to the list on this. Then people won't have to take my word for it. They can take yours. I could say the same thing about my field broadcasters. I broadcast BD preps in them, so you may be sure I don't want any private interest--including Greg Willis--trademarking the term BD preps for their private interests. I've got a real stake in this because what I'm doing with field broadcasting stands to "make the benefits of our agricultural preparations available to the largest possible areas over the entire Earth" and I fully intend to use the terms biodynamic and BD preps generically and I want to have them in the public domain. You may be sure that my interest is right in there with JPI and Hugh Courtney in seeing that no one including Greg gets a private hold on the term BD preps. If they do it will stifle biodynamics I don't have any question of it in my military mind. You don't let some other country get ahold of your key natural resources and than get in a fight with them. That's military strategy. Military strategy requires that you protect your key resources. The word biodynamic is a very key resource, and Demeter is using it privately. Suppose my contention is true that Demeter is holding back biodynamics by having a certification proceedure that takes people years to become weakly biodynamic? Greg and I have methods of bringing farms into robust biodynamic vigor in a much shorter time than the Demeter program. Now what does that do to me if I don't know whether I can use the term biodynamic to describe what I do? The term biodynamic is a key natural resource for me. What do I do if Demeter says I can't use it? What does Greg do? He's a genius at bringing a place to biodynamic life. I've been there and seen and you live there and you can report back to the list. Tell us what you know to be true, Andrew. And please forgive me for ranting about this. My whole body quivers like a tuning fork over this matter. > >Biodynamics is not just a that >is somehow, also, vaguely spiritual. Biodynamics is inseperable from the >spiritual science known as Anthroposophy, just like botany is inseperable >from the natural science known as ecology. You can study it alone, but to >understand it well, work with it effectively and innovate within it, you >need to understand the greater context from which it stems. This is called >systems integrity. Seperating biodynamics from Anthroposophy is like >seperating botany from ecology, which is exactly what so many people did in >creating conventional agriculture. Let's not make that same mistake again, >only on the other side of the paradigmatic fence. > Once again you are so right, Andrew. You seem to hit paydirt at every turn. That's why I worked so hard on my post Biodynamic Trademark. That was no boilerplate posting. I worked till dawn two nights straight at the keyboard to describe in no uncertain terms just what anthroposophy was all about. It's about peeling away people's spiritual entrapments of misidentification, assumption, prejudice and belief and dealing on the one hand with the things that disempower the will and on the other hand dealing with the things that disengage the thinking. Then, finally dealing with the impairments to the ego and integrating the personality. Steiner called this casting out the demons of Lucifer and Ahriman and experiencing the Christ within. Then a clear, unobstructed bridge functioned between the will and thought. You see, this is really what Christianity was supposed to be all about too. And it is what we did at the Personal Creative Freedom's Foundation in Los Angeles in a hundred hour block of biofeedback therapy. And what an effect this can have on people! The trouble is this only is strongly effective when you eat biodynamic food, and, I might add, it is far more effective if you have been eating such food since birth. Having an unimpared ego is so empowering it's hard to imagine unless you've gone from not having one to having one. Anyway Anthroposophy and biodynamics are inseparable. But, of course, you don't have to belong to the Anthroposophical Society or the Biodynamic Association to get there. That's the rub. The myth that you have to be a member of something with a trademark is a myth that's long overdue for being exploded. I suppose I ought to say that the Anthroposophical Societies throughout the world are doing something similar with anthroposophy that the BDA and Demeter are doing with biodynamics. Holding it back. I DO feel that way, but fighting on that battleground will have to wait. I want to concentrate on setting biodynamics free for now. Anyway, I sure didn't want there to be any mistake about it that biodynamics is a revolutionary spiritual practice, which were your words for it. This is the big secret behind biodynamic agriculture. I laid it on the line as well as I knew how. As you can see I came to biodynamics with this understanding. It isn't something I had to spend years going to meetings and reading books like they do in the anthroposophical society. I came to biodynamics because I knew of this spiritual connection already from day one. I didn't have to pay any membership fee or go anywhere or do anything but just be myself. No one else has to either. You can get into biodynamics just like that in one minute folks. It will take time to learn how it works, but you can know you want to learn this in just one minute. I'll help folks learn it and I know youwill too, Andrew. They only have to know what it is and know they want it. I didn't want there to be any mistake about the reason we must stop fooling around about making the benefits of the BD preps available to the widest possible areas of the entire earth. That's what this Biodynamic Trademark business is REALLY about. It is a battle for people's minds. Well, it's morning once again and I've got to milk the cow and go mail documents to Hugh Courtney. Greg will be mailing his to Courtney in a few hours. God, I hope we win on this one! Warmest regards everyone, Hugh Lovel Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:37:21 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: opportunity Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org >Hugh, > >Thanks, again, for the good exchange. I have continued to understand where >you are at in all this trademark business to the best of my abilities. > That's what I like about you, Andrew. >Lets look at some fundamental assumptions here: At least what I understand >which no doubt is but one perspective and I am open to be educated >otherwise... > >Demeter is a financially poor non-profit aimed at protecting and promoting >biodynamic quality methods & products on a huge continent filled with >millions and millions of people. To say the least, it does not have a large >budget or staff, nor does it portend to be a successful business >organization. It has been muddling along for some time. However, it is >pretty benign. Always has been. Now for those of us who see the great needs >of the world, the earth and the many individuals who would be so much better >off with higher quality foods, well, muddling along seems like it ought not >to be good enough. It might even make us wonder why we are just barely >muddling along. Its frustrating no doubt. Frustrating, but not evil. > >People of good faith should investigate carefully the situation and make >careful assessments - and by my way of thinking - do everything possible to >either help improve matters (in the spirit of mutual support) or simply try >and do something else that would serve similar purposes (if one felt one >couldnt really help for whatever reason). Making Demeter or Anne Mendenhall >out to be the devil is simply rediculous. Demeter (and Anne) may not be the >symbol of entrepreneurial success or the best example of how to go about >promoting and protecting biodynamics, but to make them out to be some >vicious, elite, cult-adhering whatever is simply over the top. Why? For what >end, really? I still cannot fathom it. If someone can do it better, go for >it. No one is standing in the way of anyone doing good work! Going to court >over this stuff is the most un-spiritual thing I have ever heard of. Did >Rudolf Steiner ever go to court to settle matters? Did Jesus? Buddha? I >simply cannot see how this will help. > Dear Andrew, You know, it wouldn't pay to be naive. I found as a kid delivering newspapers there were certain viscious dogs who tried to sneak up on you and take you by the heel. It was not so much a matter of being scared as being wary. A person does well to be wary. My investigations in this matter so far have yielded this: There's real money behind the fact they didn't trademark "Demeter certified biodynamic" but rather trademarked the generic term biodynamic. There's a microorganism, radiodurans, that lives in atomic reactors and repairs its DNA so fast they can't keep it out of the reactor. It eventually it takes the reactor down. THAT's biodynamic. It should and could be part of the language. Trademarking the term has a very chilling effect on our entire movement. And, unfortunately, there IS serious money with an agenda behind this. One of the people I found this out from is Courtney. He told me about the trademarking in other, predominately European countries. Apparantly most of the money is coming out of Germany and Lichtenstein, and they've already trademarked the term biodynamic in several countries, one of which is Germany. What's the agenda? I don't know. But I'm certainly uncomfortable with it. It sounds really--what can I say?--demonic. When someone gets power over you, are they not going to use it? I'm not so sure. Why did they get it in the first place? I have no reason to think Demeter won't give me trouble over my use of the word biodynamic. But that's not even the point. The point is how this vauge threat poisons the atmosphere. It makes it like walking around quicksand all the time. The history of these things is rife with reasons not to be naive. All I need to do is go teaching biodynamics and writing books and then being told I can't call it biodynamic when I'm overextended somewhere. >No one is going to come after you Hugh. I think the whole idea of prep >broadcasting is pretty darn interesting. I find it far-fetched from my own >experiences, but interesting none-the-less. I would defend your right to try >it out, promote it, sell-it, share-it, whatever. Calling it biodynamic is a >completely different matter. You broadcast bdpreps with your cosmic pipe. >Way cool, especially if it works. You dont need to call the method of >broadcasting as such or compete with demeter over the issue or >try to be certified or anything of the sort. Just do it. If it works for you >and other folks, the news will spread you can be sure. Just call it the >cosmic pipe in which you broadcast bd preps and leave it at that. No one can >say a thing. Nothing. You have and will always have the right to do your >thing. Do you really need to have the whole process certified or called >biodynamic? or anything else for that matter? why? What is all this fuss >about when we have real work to be doing?! I understand your point of view Andrew. You're right enough that they can't come down on me personally if I just go ahead and do things and don't use the term biodynamic. But now you've asked the question of what's all this fuss about when there's so much to be done? Well, trust me, a practical farmer, that I'm not interested at all in courtroom battles or anything unnecessary for that matter. And I'm not a lunatic. I've very practical and grounded. And as my trademark post shows I know what biodynamic is ALL about and it IS a revolutionary spiritual practice, just as you said. I think what you're failing to see is the battle is for men's minds. The battle is for significance. You wouldn't call broadcasting biodynamic. But that's because you don't understand it. It is one of the most biodynamic things going. It is way more biodynamic than Demeter's requirement of a few sprays a year. The way broadcasting the preps works is it creates resonance in the ethers, the organizational, life force fields of soil and atmosphere. The way spraying the preps works is the same. The pattern is established and things start to fall into the pattern like water vapor crystalizing into a snowflake. There's big differences in the modalities. You sprinkle the preps on the surface of the soil and they establish the pattern one way. You broadcast the pattern with a copper coil in a field broadcaster and you establish the same pattern but in a different way. This is organizational force we are talking about. And it is the best way I know of carrying forward Steiner's intention of what he said was the most important thing--making the benefits of our agricultural preparations available to the largest possible areas over the entire Earth. Field broadcasting is biodynamic agriculture as it was intended, and not this ridiculous stuff of certifying 50 biodynamic farms in 75 years and actually telling farmers that they don't have to spray preps but a few times a year. Greg has his clients spray--perhaps 30 times a year. If he wants to bring a vineyard to life he does it, no fooling around. You have to be committed to spraying preps as often as it takes. Greg gets real results and so do I. We want to see results. We are really biodynamic. You seem to think I don't need to call it biodynamic, but you simply don't understand. That's why I wrote that long post and summarized all the innermost secrets of anthroposophy--all about Ahriman, Lucifer and Christ. People need to know this will rescue them from impairment and allow them to manifest the spirit in everyday life. And we need a term for it that works from one end of the earth to the other. We're fighting for the right to use an IDEA. People have this idea, everyone, somewhere in their experience, because it's an everyday reality. Everyone experiences their impaired ego every day. They experience being possessed by Lucifer and Ahriman everyday. Everyone calls it something different. Everyone sees a different piece from a different viewpoint. Well we've got to develop a vocabulary around the world for this. We have to know there is an agricultural remedy for this impairment that everyone experiences. That remedy is biodynamics. It's a revolutionary spiritual practice. It's going to take a while but we can farm this world into enlightenment biodynamically and I don't know any other way it can be done. We can't 'be having our terms for this usurped by a bunch of do-nothings who want to control some kind of certification and marketing thing. They could easily enough trademark "Demeter certified biodynamic" but that's not what they've done. What they've done is certified a word in the English language and posed a threat to anyone like myself who uses it. They have confiscated one of the most significant terms in the English language for their private use. I don't like that. I need to use that word, confound it. Marketing? What does it matter? Demeter wants to protect a few farmers' ability to charge a little extra? Heck. I studied Demeter's guidelines 15 years ago and learned what I could from them. They were useful. But I've always stood on my reputation that what I grow is biodynamic. And boy is it! It's so biodynamic it is amazing. I'm always passing out samples to taste at our market and people come back for more, and I'm charging 3 and 4 dollars a pound for potatoes, 20 a pound for garlic, 3 dollars a pound for cornmeal and things like that. I'm selling out. I'm making a name for biodynamic that I'd really rather that Demeter certified products not contaminate because so many of them tend to be pale by comparison. But I'll be magnamous and let them use the term. Then why can't I use the term? I've got farmer Hugh's biodynamic and if you get it from farmer Hugh you can rest assured it will be the best whatever you ever ate. People will find out that not all biodynamic is the same and get farmer Hugh's biodynamic. But in my view marketing doesn't really matter much. It's a tiny issue. What matters is getting these preps all over the Earth. We've got to have a lot of people working at it with a real will for that to happen, and to do that we've got to get an IDEA across to them. We are fighting for their MINDS. We have to have this word, biodynamic because of its roots, because of its significance, because it goes back to Lucifer and Ahriman and Christ and the Rock. We can't let Demeter have it or we have to create another long history rich with significance with some other term. Oh, we can do that, sure. In the process of spreading any idea we will have to create words and they end up having to have all kinds of synonyms. But it's a whopping set-back to lose a key word like this that is a part of the language should never be someone's commercial property. > >All this business about individuals trademarking this or that, going to >court, long-term strategies to force people to do this or that via the court >system (adversarial paradigm) is simply a loose-loose proposition. No one >will win, everyone will loose. Guaranteed. > >We have so much positive work to be doing. I cannot personally see how all >this fighting and wrangling, intriguing, etc. will get us anywhere. No one, >not Demeter, JPI or the BDA is standing in the way of anyone doing good >work: farming, gardening, making preps, etc. What am I missing here Hugh? >This - to me - is a diversion away from the real story which is that we need >to work hard, both in the field and in our souls. Wrangling in court will >not ever produce a better world, not for anything, certainly not for >biodynamics. No one is standing in the way of good work. You're so right there's so much important work to be done. But this business of ursurpation of the language IS standing in the way. I'm explaining it to you brother. I'll keep trying until you get it too. I know what I'm talking about, and though I think I'm saying it, maybe I'm not so hang in there and keep asking questions until I make sense to you. I don't know how you do it, Andrew, but I've been learning about you that you usually go right to the meat of the discussion. You've hit it here, once again. I'm going to post this to the list so everyone can read it. > >respectfully, >Andrew From: "gardner" To: Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:48:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Greg Willis wrote: > It would be helpful if someone out there in BDLand would do a complete > academic history of the creation and use of the term "BIODYNAMIC" so > that we could present it to the Patent and Trademark Office in an effort > to get this mark canceled. Perhaps Malcolm Gardner would be up to the > task since he seems to be the most academically credentialed man in U.S. > biodynamics today. Let me say immediately that I am certainly *not* "the most academically credentialed man in U.S. biodynamics today." For various reasons I did not complete my Ph.D. work (in botany), but I often consider this to be an advantage because I want people to *think* about anything I say, rather than accept it simply because I might have academic credentials. Credentials are sometimes convenient, but in my experience they have little or no correlation with knowledge or truth. In other words, in my life I have not been particularly concerned about getting "certified" by any institution--which brings me to the issue at hand. Not being a grower myself, I have paid scant attention to this "trademark" issue in the past, but I see now that I should, for it does appear that it is about to paralyze the biodynamic movement in America, if it has not done so already. I offer the following remarks, therefore, in the hopes of helping clarify the issue and ultimately bringing it to a peaceful resolution. Everyone should understand that the term 'Bio-Dynamic' is simply an (abbreviated) translation of the German term 'biologisch-dynamisch' (that is where that silly hyphen comes from!), which was adopted around 1930, i.e., after Steiner's death and not at his suggestion. (Actually, the word was the result of a compromise between those who wanted 'biologisch'--which in German is used like the English word 'organic'--and those who wanted to emphasize the non-material, "dynamic" aspects [info from Almar von Wistinghausen's book, "Erinnerungen an den Anfang der biologisch-dynamischen Wirtschaftsweise," Darmstadt 1982].) In England the term 'Bio-Dynamic' was in use at least by 1935, when a journal was founded called "The Bio-Dynamic Method of Agriculture" (personal communication from Alan Brockman in England). Apparently not everyone in England approved of this name, as evidenced by the remarks in the Kolisko's "Agriculture of Tomorrow," which Greg has already quoted. (This book was *begun* in 1939, but could not actually be published until after the war, in 1946.) In America the term 'Bio-Dynamic' was certainly in use by January 1938, when the current BDA was first organized as "The Association for Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening." I am not aware of any effort in those early years to trademark the word 'Bio-Dynamic' (or 'biologisch-dynamisch'), although there was the thought of *patenting* the manufacture of the biodynamic preparations. Already in 1925, Count Keyserlingk wanted to patent the biodynamic preparations in order to protect them and to produce an income stream that would support the research at the Goetheanum in Dornach. This, however, did not come to pass because other people felt--perhaps naively--that the manufacturing process could be protected simply through secrecy and that preparations should not be sold but only given away. What was trademarked (in Germany already in 1932) was the word 'Demeter'. In the United States, the Demeter Association (DA) came into existence in the early 1980's and presumably registered its name (and also the term 'Biodyn') at about the same time (see "Biodynamics" #141). I know that trademark issues were at least of some concern in the early days of the U.S. BDA because I have a copy of a letter (dated Oct. 19, 1941) from the first president of the BDA, Ora F. Gardner (my grandfather), addressed to Ehrenfried Pfeiffer, in which this subject is mentioned. But I am not aware of any further effort on the part of the U.S. BDA to register or protect the term 'biodynamic' until around 1994, when little "registered" symbols began appearing in "Biodynamics" #191 after every use of the word 'biodynamic'. In the May/June 1995 issue (#199), a small notice on page 27 announced that "The word 'Biodynamic' is a legally registered named[sic] owned by the Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Association, Inc." After the March/April 1997 issue (#210), a similar statement began appearing inside the front cover of the magazine, until it disappeared without explanation after the May/June 1998 issue (#218), along with all the little registered symbols. In the Nov./Dec. 1995 issue (#202) there was a report by Christoph Altemueller saying that in Canada they were applying to register 'Bio-Dynamic' as a certification mark. A report on the history of Demeter in the UK in 1997 ("Star and Furrow #88), made no mention of trademarking the word 'biodynamic'. In sum, I do not recall ever seeing any attempt to trademark the term 'biodynamic' (or 'Bio-Dynamic') other than in the United States and Canada, where the efforts seem to be relatively recent. As mentioned, I have not paid much attention to this issue over the years, so the above information is probably quite incomplete. Nevertheless, I am left with the following questions, which I will state here in the hope that someone else can help complete the picture: 1) Why was there this "on again, off again" pattern of using the registered symbols in the magazine "Biodynamics"? Why was this not explained in the magazine--or did I simply miss the explanation? 2) Why did the BDA declare in 1995 that it owned the name 'biodynamic', but now the DA says that it owns the "certification mark BIODYNAMIC"? Was it transferred, or are we talking about two different things? 3) What motivated the U.S. BDA and/or the DA in recent years to try to trademark the term 'biodynamic'? Why was the trademark 'Demeter' (and/or 'Biodyn') not sufficient to distinguish Demeter certified biodynamic products? In addition to the foregoing review, I will now also summarize my understanding of the present situation--so that others may again correct and supplement this picture if necessary. Because no one from the 1930's to the 1980's went to the trouble of registering the word 'biodynamic' (and defending it in the meantime), the legal question now seems to be whether during this period the word 'biodynamic' was used broadly and thus became a generic term, or whether it was used narrowly and therefore still qualified as a "common law trademark", i.e., as an unregistered trademark. Apparently the DA has succeeded this year in convincing the Patent and Trademark Office that there is a prima facie case for a narrow definition, but this decision may also be reversed during the five-year challenge period. Greg says he and probably others will do this, but in the meantime he has also applied for a trademark on the phrase 'BD Preps'. He says he has done this in order to "ferret out the truth" and "bring this thing to a head." What we have here, it seems to me, is a reciprocal hostage-taking situation: the DA has seized the word 'biodynamic' (in addition to the word 'Demeter'), and Greg, who feels robbed of a word that had been allowed to circulate freely for more than half a century, has retaliated by seizing the phrase 'BD preps'. These actions remind me of the USDA's attempt not so long ago to hijack the word 'organic'. All of these unfriendly things have been done in the name of protecting consumers from fraud and deception. But these good intentions are paving the road to hell, the hell of endless litigation. Whenever a noble end is used to justify coercive means, it seems that the noble end is ultimately lost as well. In my opinion, in the long run the most ethical and effective method of protecting consumers is to *empower* them with real information. This enables them to make their *own* informed decisions about what they wish to purchase instead of being dependent on a third party certifier's judgment about what is or is not "biodynamic." Instead of reducing everything down to a single, uniform trademark, the effort should be to *expand* the amount of information available to consumers and to simply enforce the truth in labelling laws that are already on the books. I don't see why the DA needs more than the name 'Demeter' (and 'Biodyn'), but if so, Hugh Lovel's suggestion that they pursue trademarking the phrase 'Demeter Certified Biodynamic' seems quite reasonable. Similarly, Greg could trademark the phrase 'Agri-Synthesis Certified Biodynamic', and so on. Instead of just one biodynamic flavor, there would then be many. Instead of promoting uniformity, this would allow individuality to flourish, which would actually be much more in keeping with the ideals of democracy and of (Steiner's) biodynamics. I don't condone hostage-taking, but I think Greg may be right about the DA (or the BDA?) having opened a Pandora's box with their attempt to trademark the term 'biodynamic' at this late date, i.e., after it has arguably become a generic term. If Greg is correct about the problem of selective enforcement, then it seems that the DA has indeed embarked on a course of bankruptcy and bad publicity that will affect not only itself but also its certified farms and possibly the whole biodynamic movement. And even if he is not correct, even one lawsuit will still be expensive and generate bad feelings and bad publicity and further distract everyone from their real tasks. Does anyone seriously doubt this? Can cooler heads prevail here? Can egos be set aside for the welfare of the movement as a whole? Can we set a new tone for the new millennium? At the moment, the suggestion that the DA proceed to place the term 'biodynamic' in the public domain, actually seems like the best way to defuse this situation (it would eliminate any need to defend it and also protect it from ever being usurped by an entity such as Monsanto.) Can the DA consider this seriously? Greg, of course, would have to do the same thing with the phrase 'BD preps'. Then perhaps we could all get back to our real task of working together to understand and practice biodynamics. --Malcolm Gardner To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: Dear Malcolm, As usual, a great post. It helps tremendously to shed light on things. So far as I can see the prevailing heads are cool enough. Now the issue has been raised and the discussion entered into, no doubt we will see the most intensive discussion of what biodynamic really means. No one ever has seen such a discussion I'll bet. It will be well worth the price of admission and probably deserves publication as a book. List readers may want to print the more important posts in this series for their individual perusal. Sincerely, Hugh Lovel > In addition to the foregoing review, I will now also summarize my >understanding of the present situation--so that others may again correct and >supplement this picture if necessary. > Because no one from the 1930's to the 1980's went to the trouble of >registering the word 'biodynamic' (and defending it in the meantime), the >legal question now seems to be whether during this period the word >'biodynamic' was used broadly and thus became a generic term, or whether it >was used narrowly and therefore still qualified as a "common law trademark", >i.e., as an unregistered trademark. Apparently the DA has succeeded this >year in convincing the Patent and Trademark Office that there is a prima >facie case for a narrow definition, but this decision may also be reversed >during the five-year challenge period. Greg says he and probably others >will do this, but in the meantime he has also applied for a trademark on the >phrase 'BD Preps'. He says he has done this in order to "ferret out the >truth" and "bring this thing to a head." > What we have here, it seems to me, is a reciprocal hostage-taking >situation: the DA has seized the word 'biodynamic' (in addition to the word >'Demeter'), and Greg, who feels robbed of a word that had been allowed to >circulate freely for more than half a century, has retaliated by seizing the >phrase 'BD preps'. These actions remind me of the USDA's attempt not so >long ago to hijack the word 'organic'. All of these unfriendly things have >been done in the name of protecting consumers from fraud and deception. But >these good intentions are paving the road to hell, the hell of endless >litigation. Whenever a noble end is used to justify coercive means, it >seems that the noble end is ultimately lost as well. > In my opinion, in the long run the most ethical and effective method of >protecting consumers is to *empower* them with real information. This >enables them to make their *own* informed decisions about what they wish to >purchase instead of being dependent on a third party certifier's judgment >about what is or is not "biodynamic." Instead of reducing everything down >to a single, uniform trademark, the effort should be to *expand* the amount >of information available to consumers and to simply enforce the truth in >labelling laws that are already on the books. I don't see why the DA needs >more than the name 'Demeter' (and 'Biodyn'), but if so, Hugh Lovel's >suggestion that they pursue trademarking the phrase 'Demeter Certified >Biodynamic' seems quite reasonable. Similarly, Greg could trademark the >phrase 'Agri-Synthesis Certified Biodynamic', and so on. Instead of just >one biodynamic flavor, there would then be many. Instead of promoting >uniformity, this would allow individuality to flourish, which would actually >be much more in keeping with the ideals of democracy and of (Steiner's) >biodynamics. > I don't condone hostage-taking, but I think Greg may be right about the >DA (or the BDA?) having opened a Pandora's box with their attempt to >trademark the term 'biodynamic' at this late date, i.e., after it has >arguably become a generic term. If Greg is correct about the problem of >selective enforcement, then it seems that the DA has indeed embarked on a >course of bankruptcy and bad publicity that will affect not only itself but >also its certified farms and possibly the whole biodynamic movement. And >even if he is not correct, even one lawsuit will still be expensive and >generate bad feelings and bad publicity and further distract everyone from >their real tasks. Does anyone seriously doubt this? > Can cooler heads prevail here? Can egos be set aside for the >welfare of the movement as a whole? Can we set a new tone for the new >millennium? At the moment, the suggestion that the DA proceed to place the >term 'biodynamic' in the public domain, actually seems like the best way to >defuse this situation (it would eliminate any need to defend it and also >protect it from ever being usurped by an entity such as Monsanto.) Can the >DA consider this seriously? Greg, of course, would have to do the same >thing with the phrase 'BD preps'. Then perhaps we could all get back to our >real task of working together to understand and practice biodynamics. > >--Malcolm Gardner To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark FACTS Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: >>Factually, >>Hugh Lovel >> >> >>*[Just incidentally list readers, don't ever, ever get in the position >>where you sue Greg or he sues you. For sure don't wrong this guy. I've been >>to prison twice and I've seen the guts of the law and the system. Greg goes >>out to win. Oh sure, he seems to act off-the-beam and gets his opposition >>to underestimate him while he lures them into well-documented indiscretion >>after well-documented indiscretion and builds his case. Patiently. When he >>lowers the boom he's utterly lethal, utterly tenacious. Even bulldogs tire, >>but not Greg. I've never seen anything like it, and I can imagine his grin >>when he reads this. He likes winning in court. This is his ugly side and it >>does not make him look good or win him any friends. It makes him look like >>an utter, stark madman--which he is not. He's sensitive, caring and >>extremely talented when it comes to bringing the earth to life. This is >>just one little facet of his personality--but be forewarned.] > > >Hey Hugh: > >This last paragraph of yours sure looks to me as a threat. Dear Guillermo, It sure is a threat. I'm sorry, but Greg is a threat. I want to see if Greg's threat can be avoided and leave our integrity unimpaired. I have a notion this will actually improve everyone's integrity. But you're sure right that Greg is a threat. What is the objective of writing something like that ?, to scare ? I for one got scare, but scare away from participating in an organization where such methods an attitudes would prevail. If you ask me, I rather take orthodoxy, bureaucracy and inefficiency over threats any day. It is time to be wary, not scared. You can be scared and run hid your head if you want, but it isn't going to help. Please beware instead. Please don't be scared. Please help Demeter to wake up, because if they do Greg is the nicest guy you're likely to meet. Hugh How about responding to the survey? It is a matter of expressing an opinion, NOT taking sides. I don't care what opinion you have. I only want to know what it is. > > >Dear friend I think we are loosing perspective here. I was attracted to >BD because it was a way in which I could work for the environment and in >agriculture within a framework of spirituality, I imagine most of BD >practitioners are in the same position, so what is the use of this power >struggle? It sure looks counter productive to spiritual evolvement. It's not counter to spiritual evolvement. Spiritual evolvement includes learning how to handle adversity in a wholesome way. I'm sure you know that. > I sure hope you'll look at this again. And if necessary, again. BD is the best of ways to work with the environment, and Greg is by far the best at using biodynamics to work with the environment of any biodynamic practitioners I know. Why do you suppose I had him at my conference. Or why Allan is sure to try to get him for the Claymont conference in Virginia. Or why I'm hoping he will be coming to Australia with me in July? But if the Demeter Association takes the second step--they've already taken the first step by tradmarking biodynamic--of complaining he is abusing the term biodynamic I' sure I won't be able to stuff the genie back in the bottle, which is what I'm trying to do here. I need you eyes open and wide awake, my friend. Not running for cover. Hugh Lovel >Warm greetings > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:49:29 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark - Return to Sanity Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org >Dear Hugh & Friends, > >I must agree with Jane and Robert and Guillermo. This trademark discussion >has gone way too far over the edge. We cannot, must not allow our community >to be drawn further and further into threats, counter-threats, military >strategies, legal battles, etc. We have much better things to be doing. > Dear Andrew, I couldn't agree more. Once again you zero in on the meat of things. You'll want to read my responses to Pam and Guillermo. >Hugh, I agree with you wholeheartedly that there are real issues around >Demeter organizations and the BDA's both in the US and elsewhere . No >question in my mind. Lack of leadership in the sense of bringing bd forward >more, better, etc. sometimes lack of openmindeness, funny approaches to >funding, lack of democratic process, etc. These are all though, >not just the organizations. It is so easy to tear the work of others apart, >so hard to do it better. I want us to have open, forward looking >organizations too. But they are created by hard work, not by legal >decisions! Andrew, you are wonderful for making my points for me. I'm in wholehearted agreement. The fact that we keep uncovering these deep divisions and heretofore haven't done much to settle them is truly discouraging. We've got to learn to settle and heal this kind of dispute, and I can assure you for my own part that my definition of "settle" and "heal" does not include keeping my mouth shut any longer about how biodynamic my broadcasters are just because the Demeter Association has been asserting they are not biodynamic and holding a trademark on the term biodynamic. Prior to this I have kept my mouth shut about my biodynamic field broadcasters and just called them field broadcasters. This has been worrying me for quite some time, because the real truth is they are biodynamic field broadcasters and I need to say that so the purchasers get the right idea from the start. There's people out there who think you can broadcast all kinds of nonsense in these biodynamic field broadcasters--even one fellow who broadcast Black Flag in one. Next thing you know someone's going to broadcast something radioactive like maybe some of this gypsum with all the radium in it that's a by-product of Florida's phosphate industry. It's important to me to disabuse anyone from any such dangerous nonsense. These are BIODYNAMIC field broadcasters that serve to broadcast the BD preps. I'm not going to stifle my integrity on this subject any longer just because of the Demeter Association. What I'm going to do instead is hope and pray that the Demeter Association comes to its senses and puts the term biodynamic in the public domain. And maybe it would be helpful to notice. I'm not threatening anyone with anything. If anything I'm being threatened by the fact that there is some chance the Demeter Association will come after me with legal action. So far out of six responses to the survey question the score is three yes (I will have to contend with Demeter disapproval) and three uncertain. No one has answered no yet, but then, there's still a lot haven't answered yet, including yourself. I do think a trend in the responses is already developing. There seems to be some idea in circulation that I will have to contend with Demeter disapproval. Well so be it. My sense of responsibility and integrity shows me I have to use the terms BD preps and biodynamic, and so I'm going to do that. I just got off the phone with my publisher, Fred Walters of ACRES and he says he'll print it my way and he doesn't feel a bit intimidated, so it will be that way. You see I'm confronting what may be an effort to tear my work apart, and I'm doing it without any threats or any efforts at division. I'm exercising my right to be responsible and to have integrity in what I'm doing. Calmly, or as calmly as I can anyway. We'll just have to see what happens. But don't ask me to give in. That would be foolish of you because if I give in then who's next on the firing line is Greg. > >I am not an apologist for the US BDA in any way shape or form. I left my >membership and involvement there for seven years in silent protest over >similar concerns. However, in the meantime I worked hard to make positive >things happen. How we level our critique, how we work to improve matters of >the common good is as essential as what we do. The is the hallmark of >our humanity and the signature of our spirit. I quite agree. >The way in which you, Hugh, >suggest we ought to approach this is not exemplary of a spiritual approach >worthy of the being of biodynamics - in my book. How so? >I think, upon careful >meditation, you will agree. I do not. >Somehow the fire of has >gotten into you, but I am convinced, dear friend, that it is misplaced on >this one. You may be right here about me fighting the good fight. Fighting to bring resolution to this issue without Greg getting into the fray sounds to me like a pretty noble thing to do. >Please take the time to review your position carefully and ask >yourself if this is really we ought to be fighting and if this >is the to do it. So far, I only see destructive elements. > Please look again. I think there is a lot of positivity here. In fact, I seriously invite you to join me. >I cannot, to answer your question Hugh, guarantee anything in terms of what >Demeter or the BDA might do or not do. I do not sit on either Board nor have >I any regular contact with these folks. I also cannot guarantee what you or >others will do! I'm not asking for you to guarantee anything, Andrew. I don't imagine anyone thinks you can. What I asked in my survey was whether you think I will have to contend with Demeter disapproval--yes, no, not certain. I'm just asking for an honest opinion, what do you think? I'd prefer that you sent it to me in private. Your response is no body's business. >Fact is, Demeter has not done anything to date to keep >anyone from using the term biodynamic. Far, far to the contrary, Andrew. For years Demeter has kept me from using the term biodynamic in regard to my biodynamic field broadcasters. They've done this by setting themselves up as the judges of what is and is not biodynamic, and in the past they've banned biodynamic field broadcasters without talking to me about them or investigating at the source. Hugh Courtney is prohibited by agreement with others in the BDA and Demeter from using a biodynamic field broadcaster at JPI I might add. Just the last Demeter Newsletter it was published that field broadcasters are not biodynamic. I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever that the Demeter Association has kept me from using the term biodynamic. About the best you can say is that through many years of patience and diplomacy I have gotten Demeter to soften its stand a little on this matter. Demeter has not served legal notice that I must cease and desist in my use of the word biodynamic with my field broadcaster. My point is that heretofore I've never given them the chance. Who knows what they'll do now that I'm changing all my advertising and brochures? >They have only objected to someone >trying to trademark, personally, the term . So far, I see no fact >warranting as you call them. None. > >Surveys are fine Hugh, but as you should know, respondants to open surveys >are by far (statistically) only those who agree with the motives and >positions of the author(s). Skewed stats serve no one. This is not a >statistical issue, it is an ethical one. You may be right, and I'd truly welcome an independent survey. I want to know what people think and not be mollycoddled. > >If we need to make huge changes in how we present biodynamics, lets just do >it and not worry about Demeter or the BDA - they are NOT standing in the >way. (So far!) and if they do, Hugh, I too will join the battle, but not >until they have drawn first blood (to use your military terminology). I believe that is precisely what I am doing, Andrew, and I appreciate your standing by me if that ever becomes necessary--which I hope it doesn't. If it does become necessary I intend to have earned your support. > >I respect your concerns Hugh, really I do. In fact I share them. But no one >has stopped you from doing anything as far as I can see. I still think you >are overreacting. We ought to make changes, but make them with dignity and >integrity, not malevolence. I've explained this. I have heretofore been stopped. I believe I'm doing precisely as you ask. > >Lets get back to talking about farming and gardening - shall we? > >Sincerely, >Andrew Regards, Hugh Lovel Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:13:24 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Trademark Survey Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org >Jane: > >Hooray! for a voice of sanity. > >The last few days have made me question the value of this list. I >thought I was going to learn WHY BD and HOW to use BD to make my farm >better. > >Instead, I've heard a lot of crap about internicine warfare. For >Christ's sake, can't we get back to the basics? > >I understand the trademark issue is a problem - a big one. And there >appears to have been some other issues (including the formation of BD >Now!). But the arguments certainly sound churlish. A face-to-face >meeting might not solve everything. But it certainly would be better >than all this caterwauling (sp.?). > >As Guillermo points out, it's better than farts and beans (see the OGL >list). But not by a lot. > >Looking forward to some edumacation - > >R. Actually Robert, I think with some of the things that have come out, like the core issues of anthroposophy--which is central to studying BD--this series has been quite educational about BD. However, if you have some kind of BD question to ask on how to do this or that, by all means ask. Jane has pointed out something that is quite obvious. Sooner or later the discussion must proceed with Demeter. It would, however, be wrong not to engage in the discussion with Demeter at some level where Demeter did not realize how serious a matter this is. In fact the issues go even further. They go back to Europe where their term for biodynamic is also trademarked and they are as I understand it prepared to back up Demeter in court with money if not also with lawyers. So it may well be this discussion can't simply be resolved with the Demeter Association incorporated in New York. It may go much further and deeper and I'm trying to find that out. Sadly, I doubt if this is as simple as Jane seems to think. I feel really wary about this. But having screwed myself up to enter the dragon's lair so to speak I hope to turn over every rock. I don't want the German Demeter entity to come down on my head about using the term biodynamic any more than I want the American one to. And no doubt I've got to see what the situation is in regard to the entire world, because what is at issue here is applying the benefits of our preparations to the largest possible areas over the entire earth for its healing. One more thing. I keep waiting to hear if there's any interest out there to hear how these things work. They are so biodynamic! It is a real education in how biodynamics works. Sincerely, Hugh Lovel To: Pam DeTray From: Hugh Lovel Subject: RE: Trademark Survey Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: >------Original Message------ >From: Hugh Lovel >The question is do you think I will have to >contend with Demeter >disapproval of my use of the term biodynamic? > >Yes > >Not Certain > >No > > >Hugh, if I had to check a reply it would be "not >certain." However, my intuition tells me that, to >the people involved with the Demeter organization, >you are a "thorn in the side" and running your ad >will be like waving a red flag at a bull. > >Why do you suppose it is that, every time the list >reaches an enlightened level of discourse that >presents BD concepts in such a way that even I can >learn, we find ourselves once again embroiled in >conflict? > >Happy New Year to you and Lorraine. > >Pam DeTray > Dear Pam, I think that is an excellent question. I think you have hit on one of the most important issues. Let me repeat your question, as I suspect a lot of other readers have been thinking it. "Why do you suppose it is that, every time the [BD Now] list reaches an enlightened level of discourse that presents BD concepts in such a way that even I can learn, we find ourselves once again embroiled in conflict?" Well, I think you've hit on something big because as far as I can see you're pretty much right. Every time we reach a high level of discussion we find ourselves staring conflict in the face. As far as I can see this can only mean one thing. Dealing with conflict in a WHOLESOME way is the NEXT thing we are going to have to learn on this list. We are going to have to make wholesome resolution of conflict be our next step in terms of our spiritual progress individually and collectively on this list. How will we do that? I'm not so sure of the details, but I DO know what that means. Wholesome resolution of conflict means generating integrity, finding our common ground, working toward concensus, that kind of stuff. What it does not mean is bringing about schism, divisiveness, impairment and all those things. That means it is no use pointing fingers, calling names making threats, dealing in innuendo and so forth. That means we've got to all of us keep alert that we understand what is going on and ask questions, be truthful, factual, understanding, try to see each other's viewpoints and so on. That will require a real effort to see that personal ambition, illusion and petty jealousy are set aside. We're going to have to live as true anthroposophists in other words, let go of our Ahrimanic and Luciferic impairments and learn to experience the Christ within. If you don't like those terms, okay. Use whatever terms you like and if you are at a loss for terms ask me for help. I've got one of the best thesauruses in print--perhaps the best. I really doesn't matter what terms you use. It will require patience and effort. This is going to be a real challenge that believe it or not we will all immeasurably advance our spiritual evolution by accepting. If you have my book turn to page 171 and read about Jack Horner and basic exercises. We will all have to practice our basic exercises. You can read about it in my book. And if you don't have a copy, I just talked to the publisher and it is being reissued this month. However, I think I can dredge it up on my computer and put the helpful parts on this list. To summarize what is involved in just the barest way, we will all have to strive toward non-judgmental, open-minded, intent observation. We'll need to complete cycles by acknowledgement. And we are going to have to pursue each point all the way until we reach a completion of some kind. Maybe some flaming will occur, I don't know. I hope not. It hasn't so far, has it? Has anyone felt there's been flaming? I don't know. I haven't felt so, but for all I know I've pushed someone's buttons myself. If so, lets hear it. And if I fail to do something in anyone's eyes? That should be noted to clear the air. And likewise with each of us in terms of baring their own heart of their transgressions. Say it, let us observe it without judgement and acknowledge it. We need to do our best to keep the air clear. If someone flames at me I will need to take that with simple non-judgmental, open-minded observation. I will only have to understand and acknowledge it. Above all I must not flame back in response. I'll have to set whatever responses aside other than understanding and acknowledgement. You too. Everyone will have to practice this attitude. Do you have any idea what this will do for us individually and collectively in terms of our spiritual progress? I think that the recurrance of conflict on this list is a clear sign that we need to learn how to deal with conflict if we don't want to fly off this list. Integrity. Wholesomeness. No personal ambitions. No illusions. No petty jealousies. Think of what an amazing woman this is going to turn you into if you learn this. I think integrity must be some kind of prerequisite to learning biodynamic farming, because you're sure right that we seem to keep running into the need for it on this list. This isn't an easy solution. There is nothing automatic about it. There are no real rules. It is going to be a tough challenge. Are you ready for it? Can you hang in there? You do and you're sure to become an even more wonderful woman than you already are. That's the best I can tell you, Regards, Hugh Lovel Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:13:15 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Intellectual Property Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Deidre writes: Thank you all for an interesting forum. I look forward to other biodynamic topics in addition to the patenting problem. Sincerely, Deidre And Woody writes: Ah Deidre: It takes a newbie to bring fresh perspective. You write <<, it is not clear to be why certain people and/or organizations are obtaining patents having to do with biodynamic materials and techniques. Normally, this is done for economic gain.>> Well, of course. Let us follow the money. When I ascribe in my mind terms like :BDthen" and "fossilized" and "old paradigm" to the BD powers that be in North America, that is, The Biodynamic Association, Demeter, Inc., and their apologists on the List, it is to note with dismay the institutionalization of biodynamics, the bureaucratization of it. First the Vision...then the Missions...then the Hierophants...then the Corporations...then sclerosis. We are told that BDA/Demeter are non-profit organizations, with boards of directors and layers of administration...however thin and poorly resourced or understaffed...doing yeomans work toward an agreed-upon sacred mission. Well, praise be! As if claiming the high ground were excuse for not having had a new idea in 40 years. The creaky and discredited method of operation here is the same as in any organization/movement/bureaucracy/government ...self-empowerment, self-perpetuation as a stable entity, growth at whatever price. The last three funding appeals I had from BDA/Demeter were, more or less in order: 1) Appeal for donations to defray legal expenses associated with prosecuting the copyright on the term Biodynamic (!) 2) Appeal for donations to offset the cost of a seed cleaning machine; [why is a tax exempt organization raising funds for a seed initiative in direct competition with individual Biodynamic growers who grow seeds for a living]? 3) Appeal for donations in general...end of the tax year, blah-blah, meeting challenges. We read in the latest issue of the journal BIODYNAMICS that #3 priority for the next few years of the Association is "Fundraising and Development". Follow the money...like the Biodynamic Assocation Executive Office followed the scent of wine grapes to San Francisco. Follow the money. If Demeter certification can command a premium of 50 percent to 300 percent on your rutabaga and yogurt...Demeter stands to rake off huge sums from the producer, up front, before any marketing under the copyright names "Demeter Certified" or "Biodynamic." Demeter could expand from a parttime farmhouse office to suites in a high rise office building. On the backs of the farmers. The organization exists FIRST to perpetuate itself. In the runup to the new millenium, the past generation or two, this has meant cancerous growth rates for governments and corporations, leading to abuses like Monsanto's and the United Appeal guy with his learjets and CEO style salary. Many of us individuals are aware that this trend has run inself out and no longer makes sense. The irony is most of the people who make up these organizations, in their other lives as gardeners and farmers, know that it no longer makes sense. These people--with but one or two exceptions, men--BDA Board members like Hugh Courtney and Ernie Harvey-- are horney-handed sons of toil, businessmen, thinkers, and perhaps Anthroposophists. They are not effete, lardassed executive types or bureaucrats. Good people propping up a dinosaur organization. In the damning with faint praise department, I'll end with a praisful look at BIODYNAMICS, the sole reason I would keep BDA existing. The series of editors I have known there--Grotzke, Morrow, Yeager, Balliett, Bumbarger--are real people operating in an antiquated organization. Tear down the rest of the BDA and replace it with schizmatic organizations [which in their own time will take on all the characteristics of bloated bureaucracies]...but leave me BIODYNAMICS, the journal. Woody And Kate writes: Dear Deidre, I consider your thoughts to be the beginning of new ways of percieving this group, ( loosely designed) of BD travelers. My own journey, as a woman who is the Farmer has much to do with bypassing the establishment in order to dive through alot of the intellectual dogma and get the work done. If we waste too much time on who owns what the world will starve and the magic that Biodynamics offers us all will be sold to the higest bidders, not unlike the prices of organic produce at the local co-op. The earth offers up all the solutions and Steiner, Jevons, Chadwick, etc. spent their lives finding these solutions. Naturally, with all the changes we are putting the earth through modifications and progressive changes can be observed by all of us dedicated to the practice of sustainable farming, in which I consider BD to be the highest form. It is true that many people have not heard of Biodynamics and a simple explaination I found that works here in Northern California is to say Biodynamics is homeopathy for the earth. I would encourage this group to try to reach out and become practically helpfull to one another. I did indeed get certification, at great expense, and yet felt it was the least helpfull of all the ways of knowing about BD. I am hopefull that more regional certification and contact with other BD farmers will create more of a rele vant information network. It is still very much a good old boy's club out there but one can only hopesome of the boys will stop their pissing contests and get down to work. Best reguards to all in the New Year.Kate Clark Foxglove Farm/ Earth touching Institute PO 143 Comptche, Ca. 95427 And Guillermo writes: Dear Hugh, Andrew, Allan, Greg, Manfred ..... I am a bit confused here and have been confused ever since BD-l became BD-Now. I see the point Hugh L. and Greg W. are trying to make in making public domain the name Biodynamics in order to promote the expansion of BD in the world and in our food supply. But I also see the need to keep Steiner's teachings in a unpolluted condition, and therefore I see the need for an orthodox BDA and a Demeter certification program using trademarks and other legal business formats. Ideally I would like to see a democratic but objective BD Association interested in expanding the orthodox teachings as well as interested in breaking new ground by supporting innovative research and operations. (I strongly believe orthodoxy and innovation have their own merits and should coexist within an operational and goal oriented organizational framework) Since May 1, 1998, BD-Now IMO has been essentially the voice of those doing innovative work and rather opposed to orthodoxy such as Glen, Hugh and Greg. Sometimes we hear leveled comments from people somehow in agreement with the US BDA such as Andrew and Bruce. When we are lucky (and I mean this), we get to hear the mature insights from people like Jim and Mr. Gardner, but it has being a while since we get the official posture from the BDAA and DA administrators. As a norm and in order to have an opinion of my own, I do like to hear from both sides of an argument, otherwise the probability of having a biased information and therefore forming a biased opinion of things is very high. For those not aware of what happened on May 1, 1998, please check bellow a post by Allan Balliet entitled "Changes to this BD list". Such post IMO marked the breaking off of friendly relationships between the BDAA and Allan Balliet and therefore BD-Now. Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:59:36 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Trademark Survey Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org >for goodness sake, Hugh, will you PLEASE send Anne of Demeter or someone >else there an EMAIL!!! Ask her what's up? What are Demeter's intentions? >Please stop fanning the flames of this very big problem. Big, because it >not only challenges farmer's and others' pocketbooks and wastes energy with >litigation, but also because it challenges the very meaning of biodynamics >through the magical act of "naming", of claiming this language to itself! >This community really needs to create & apply NEW methods to communicate. >Until then, I recommend the old fashioned telephone or direct email >question PUT TO DEMETER!! Clear the air. Bring all sides to light, please. > >Jane Sherry Dear Jane, I believe you are quite right. I will forward my complete file to date as soon as I find her e-mail address. I lost all my e-mail addresses in my last computer crash. Can someone give me Anne's e-mail address? It's embarassing, but even my copy of the last Demeter newsletter is missing and must have gone in the wood heater. I would have imagined, however, that by now someone would have tuned her into this debate. I was rather expecting I might hear from her. Best, Hugh To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Good news Guillermo Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: Guillermo writes: > > >My good friend Hugh: > >How could I reply ? It is indeed a difficult subject because you have >good points and the BDA/DA must have their good points as well. Let me >stick to my previous opinion: > > ********************* > >"I see the point Hugh L. and Greg W. are trying to make in making public >domain the name Biodynamics in order to promote the expansion of BD in the >world and in our food supply. But I also see the need to keep Steiner's >teachings in a unpolluted condition, and therefore I see the need for an >orthodox BDA and a Demeter certification program using trademarks and >other legal business formats. > >Ideally I would like to see a democratic but objective BD Association >interested in expanding the orthodox teachings as well as interested in >breaking new ground by supporting innovative research and operations. (I >strongly believe orthodoxy and innovation have their own merits and should >coexist within an operational and goal oriented organizational framework)" > > *********************** > >So to answer your, IMHO, irrelevant and biased survey I have to say that >if the BDA/DA are serious about their responsibilities, they should go >after you because the cosmic pipe is not within the framework of Steiner >teachings which they are supposed to safeguard: > >"The Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association (BDA), a non-profit >organization open to the public, was formed in the U.S. in 1938 in order >to foster, guide, and safeguard the Biodynamic method of agriculture ". >(from the BDAA web site). > >On the other hand, I am studying an article (courtesy of my friend Jim >from NZ) entitled "The Widening of Mans Perceptions" (RS January 7, 1923), >where Dr. Steiner seems to relate to radionics. (I am still trying to >understand it). Anyway, the BDA/DA are also responsible for doing or >supporting innovative research in BD and therefore should have being >interested in looking into your data. So if they have not, (and I take >your word for it), they are wrong. If they looked at your data and were >not convinced, well then you should be responsible for providing the >needed new data according to whatever standards they are using to evaluate >things. > >I am not questioning if the cosmic pipe works or if it is Biodynamic or >not, that is not the issue. The issue is that there has being little >communication (for whatever reason) between the BDA/DA and its public and >its base of members. So how can we make it more democratic, more open, >but yet, still loyal to safeguarding Steiner's Agriculture from >commercialism and opportunism?, I think that is the real issue. > >I also believe that unless you get the BDA/DA to response, your posts to >this list and to sanet are worthless, since they are one sided. > >About the threats let me give you a quote from A. Einstein I read today in >SANET: > >"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more >violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move >in the opposite direction." > >About the BDA/DA not looking at your research, let me give you another >Einstein gem: > >"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and >Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." > >About keeping this one sided discussion going on in electronic discussion >forums, let me give you another example of Einstein's words: > >"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm >not sure about the universe." > > >Peace my friend (no insult intended) > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Dear Guillermo, Thanks for hanging in there. Probably at the time you were writing this, I was contacted by the BDA via Chuck Beedy. I then went and put my body in the bed and had a little much needed astral journey, because since this business started I have been staying up till dawn at the computer and grabbing a couple hours rest and staying up till dawn again. Then up again and falling into bed at 3 a.m. etc. I'm going to see about a lengthy catch-up real soon. Essentially I think it was good news. Chuck endorsed the notion of Demeter putting the mark on biodynamic in the public domain, and Agri-Synthesis (Greg), UAI (me) and JPI (Courtney) trademarking BD preps for the public domain. I've got a green light to advertize my biodynamic fiend broadcasters and Chuck even asked me to please write an article on how biodynamic field broadcasting works for the BDA journal. Whew! So I think tensions will ease off. We'll have to see how it all works out. These things take time. I don't think Demeter can do anything without a board meeting. The same with JPI in regards to dropping their objections to Agri-Synthesis tradmarking BD preps and joining Agri-Synthesis instead in trademarking BD preps for the public domain. But at this point the lights all look green. Let's hope they stay that way. I think this has all been educational for everyone involved. As I've expressed in this series of posts, I'm not much interested in changing the Demeter Association and their certification. I like Anne Mendenhall, I like Chuck Beedy. I like all these people. I'm not comfortable with anyone having me at a disadvantage, of course. But if Greg and Agri-Synthesis can proceed with his own biodynamic certification, what does he care how Demeter Certifies biodynamic growers? If I can advertise biodynamic field broadcasters and even write about them in the BDA journal (that was a pleasant surprise) then I don't have much to complain about. Demeter is orthodox and Agri-Synthesis is innovative. I like having the contrast just fine. If the farmer can take his pick and so can the consumer then everyone ought to be all right. Now it looks like just as soon as the terms BD preps and biodynamic are safely in the public domain and that's final then everyone is going to be happy. It's been a little, ahem! stimulating getting to this point, but I don't mind at all. And like I said, thanks for hanging in there. It looks like you will get your wish, Namely: ". . . a democratic but objective BD Association interested in expanding the orthodox teachings as well as interested in breaking new ground by supporting innovative research and operations. (I strongly believe orthodoxy and innovation have their own merits and should coexist within an operational and goal oriented organizational framework)" Warm regards, Hugh Lovel To: "Michael Roboz" From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Anne's email address Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: > Demeter@baldcom.net Thanks. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 01:28:02 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA16897 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:28:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA25486; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:22:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA25380 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:21:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.54.alltel.net [166.102.66.54]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id AAA22771 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:25:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <001901bf561f$8d845c60$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:32:32 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Good news Guillermo Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2888 >Please refresh me on the facts here, Hugh - > >1. Are you and/or JPI involved in any legal fashion with Greg's move >to copyright 'BD Preps' or is it solely Greg who is doing this (in a >legal fashion) at this time? If so, at what time is this effort to >legally acquire this phrase bound to turn the phrase over to the >public domain? That is in process. Greghas fxorwarded a letter of intent to JPI and I have forewarded most of this discussion for the JPI board's consideration. More than that I don't know yet. > >2. Are Demeter/BDA still legally challenging the move by Agri-Synth >to copyright the phrase 'BD Preps'? I was assured by Chuck Beedy that this discussion has given the boards of Demeter and the BDA what they needed to urge them to place the trademark of biodynamic in the public domain. > >3. Previous to your conversation with Chuck Beedy today, has Demeter >or BDA ever hassled you for the use of the word "BIODYNAMIC" in the >title of your famous ACRES book "A Biodynamic Farm"? No. Absolutely not. The BDA sold my book along with their other biodynamic literature. > >Please let me know about these things so I can start getting some sleep also!! > >Thanks > >-Allan > > > > > > >-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 01:32:44 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA16917 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA25699; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:27:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA25633 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:25:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.54.alltel.net [166.102.66.54]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id AAA26941 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:30:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <001901bf561f$8d845c60$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:36:45 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Good news Guillermo Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2889 >>And like I said, thanks for hanging in there. It looks like you will get >>your wish, Namely: >> >>". . . a democratic but objective BD Association interested in expanding >>the orthodox teachings as well as interested in breaking new ground by >>supporting innovative research and operations. (I strongly believe >>orthodoxy and innovation have their own merits and should coexist within an >>operational and goal oriented organizational framework)" >> >>Warm regards, >>Hugh Lovel > > >Dear Hugh: > >Your news sound very good. I only hope that this could be the beginning >of a beautiful and prosperous integration of BD interests. > >How about bringing back the BDA/DA to BD-Now and getting them interested >in doing promotional work in Mexico, as they are suppose to do? > >Warm greetings > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Dear Guillermo, I really don't have the power to do that. You may talk to them. However, I think it is likely that commercial farms in Mexico will be bringing BD to Mexico by hiring Agri'Synthesis and buying biodynamic field broadcasters. Sincerely, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 01:54:11 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA17040 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:54:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA27039; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:48:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alphalink.com.au (mail.alphalink.com.au [203.24.205.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA26808 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:43:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from alphalink.com.au (d53-as0-ros.alphalink.com.au [202.161.118.53]) by mail.alphalink.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11843; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:48:28 +1100 Message-ID: <3872E8D8.4B92259E@alphalink.com.au> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 17:46:48 +1100 From: OX X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Trademark Survey References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2890 Dear Hugh,, Go for it!!!!! The powers that be will most likely get upset! According to the OXFORD Dictionary, "bio" a combination, hence it is a legitimate "prefix" to use for many words "dynamic" is both and adj and noun "dynamics" is a noun in the plural (can be used singular) hence how can one legally claim the sole use of the english language in the context in which it is desingned to be used by defintion, biodymanics aerodynamics hydrodynamics no doubt the lawyers will be able to argue for days over this and makes heaps of money and meanwhile the planet wastes away whilst people play with somantics ,,, the same people that bitch about ownership of seed or genes,,, In a material world it is all about ownership, What happened to sharing??? Didn't know one could own rivers and even lay claim to a language!! Stephen from Australia, "simpleman not superman" From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 08:33:50 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20750 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:33:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12988; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:25:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from www0f.netaddress.usa.net (www0f.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12607 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:20:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 19315 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Jan 2000 13:25:13 -0000 Message-ID: <20000105132513.19314.qmail@www0f.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.35 by www0f for [142.176.90.107] via web-mailer(M3.3.1.96) on Wed Jan 5 13:25:13 GMT 2000 Date: 5 Jan 00 05:25:13 PST From: cramer gefren To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: trademarks X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.3.1.96) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id IAA12608 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2891 I'm late responding to all this & a storm knocked out our power for a bit. I have had the benefit of reading through many, many posts about the trademark issue before writing this. Indisposition is the better part of discretion! I favour putting the trademarks in the public domain. Seed Savers Exchange has been publishing descriptions & photos of vegetable varieties in order to ensure that they remain in the public domain and not become the property of the big, bad seed companies. How can we protect anything from the likes of Monsanto and the other absconders, to use Charlie Walters' expression? Does certification work? Is a label a guarantee of purity? I have heard stories of organic certification fraud - don't know if they are true - but certainly the NOSB experience gives one pause - what we think is organic might not be at all in the future. Wherever there is money, the rapacious ones tend to move in. Woody quoted Wendell Berry a while back, something about when the authorities find out how you think, change the way you think. The trademark route may be a losing battle long terms, and we would do well to follow the buy local/know your grower recommendation. Will biodynamics ever be mainstream? It's pretty demanding for the mainstream, but who knows? I don't want to underestimate human potential for spiritual growth. Putting it into the universities would be the death blow, I think. Universities are really big hierarchies - and they're funded (conrolled?) by big business. Hugh, I think you will have to contend with Demeter - it seems you already have. But will they sue you? I would be surprised. You are a big target though, and in their place I would certainly send you a letter or something. (Maybe they'll say Hey, pipe down!) Nice typo in one of your posts - biodynamic "fiend" broadcasters - gives an image of all sorts of little goblins hopping out of your cosmic pipe and into the fields. Thank you to everyone for all the very thoughtful posts and all the work that went into writing them. It seems there was a big hot flare-up and now the fever has broken, everything will be worked out in good spirit. And thank you Malcolm for your response to my questions on radiation. I have also found much good info about the differences between homeopathy and BD in the archives. Nancy Geffken ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 08:59:51 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21091 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:59:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15400; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:53:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from earth.ncn.net (ncn.net [199.120.120.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA14941 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:48:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([206.72.53.42]) by earth.ncn.net (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA21369 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:43:57 -0600 Message-ID: <00ea01bf5784$13305f20$2a3548ce@default> From: "Mike or Mona Majorowicz" To: "BDNOW!" References: Subject: Re: Facing Conflict Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:48:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2892 ----- Original Message ----- From: Hugh Lovel To: Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 12:02 AM Subject: Facing Conflict > Dear Pam, > > I think that is an excellent question. I think you have hit on one of the > most important issues. > > Let me repeat your question, as I suspect a lot of other readers have been > thinking it. "Why do you suppose it is that, every time the [BD Now] list > reaches an enlightened level of discourse that presents BD concepts in such > a way that even I can learn, we find ourselves once again embroiled in > conflict?" Personally I think this is a natural and healthy pattern. As BD farmers, we work with cycles all the time. Is there any reason to assume that the heavenly bodies are the only things subject to cyclic patterns? Viewing the patterns of discussion on BDNow as simply another cycle to observe along with those of the moon and stars gives it a more earthy feel, don't you think? Concider each message you post a seed. Plant it during the enlightened portion of the cycle and you'll harvest enlightenment. Plant it during the controversy portion of the cycle and reap the same. Plant a message with an enlightened subject during the controversial phase and it will be a weak plant. Plant that same message two days before the peak of the enlightenment phase and it will most likely thrive. Well it's probably not a perfect analogy, but it has its own truth and it makes me smile. If you want enhance the enlightenment quality of the list, then make sure you get in and plant your seeds during the enlightenment phase. :) I unsubscribed from BDNow awhile ago because I felt the list was drowning in controversy. Since then I've spent alot of time thinking about how to make BDNow a better place. The conclusion I've come to is that the simplest rule by which to judge a post is that anger has little value in a discussion group like this. I'm not saying that anyones opinion should be suppressed. What I'm saying is that the WAY they express their opinion is what needs to be judged. > > Maybe some flaming will occur, I don't know. I hope not. It hasn't so far, > has it? Has anyone felt there's been flaming? I don't know. I haven't felt > so, but for all I know I've pushed someone's buttons myself. If so, lets > hear it. And if I fail to do something in anyone's eyes? That should be > noted to clear the air. And likewise with each of us in terms of baring > their own heart of their transgressions. Say it, let us observe it without > judgement and acknowledge it. I thought the discussion was excellent considering the way BDNow has dealt with controvery in the past. > > We need to do our best to keep the air clear. If someone flames at me I > will need to take that with simple non-judgmental, open-minded observation. > I will only have to understand and acknowledge it. Above all I must not > flame back in response. I'll have to set whatever responses aside other > than understanding and acknowledgement. You too. Everyone will have to > practice this attitude. The way "experts" and especially the moderator respond to flames has a major impact on the tone of the group. I agree whole heartedly with your suggestion, but think it should be said that it is vitally important that people who carry any semblence of authority on this list take it to heart. Hoping for a great millenium, Mike Majorowicz From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 09:46:39 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21761 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:46:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18955; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:41:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18784 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:39:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.132.29] (pm3bky2-132-29.intrepid.net [209.190.132.29]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA15841 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:44:00 -0500 Message-Id: <200001051444.JAA15841@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: RE: OFF: Homeopathy Works January Newsletter Date: Wed, 5 Jan 00 09:54:50 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2893 Pam I know the folks at Homeopathy Works very well. They are based here in Berkeley Springs and we share a farm together. Many of the raw vegetable materials used to create their remedies are grown here on our farm organically. Joe Lillard's personal story of discovering homeopathy for himself -- and many of the rest of us in Berkeley Springs -- during the late 1970s, is most inspiring. The contemporary homeopathic study group movement was invented at our kitchen table at the farm and we still have one of the largest in the world in Berkeley Springs. Joe eventually served as president of the National Center for Homeopathy -- the first lay president in their history. He is a much loved and respected figure in the homeopathy world. I personally have used nothing but homeopathy since we all began this journey in 1977 and can boast of excellent health. I have a long list of homeopathy miracles I have seen Joe and his remedies undertake. Homeopathy Works definitely has my personal endorsement. Jeanne Mozier From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 10:34:19 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23102 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:34:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23077; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:28:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22873 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:27:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.223] (pm3mbr5-166-223.intrepid.net [209.190.166.223]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA26473 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:32:10 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:37:48 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: US Biodynamic Trademark Discussion, entire file Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2894 Dear Hugh - It's really not cricket to post such long posts to this newsgroup, if for no other reason, as list manager, I, on my little 4800 baud feed, will receive such a msg at least 4 times. It really slows things DOWN, especially since such a long download inevitably leads to errors and resends. Would you like this archival file posted on the UAI website? I'll do it if that's what you'd like. -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 10:34:26 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23110 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:34:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23132; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:29:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22937 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:27:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.223] (pm3mbr5-166-223.intrepid.net [209.190.166.223]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA26550 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:32:34 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <383888330.947045705190.JavaMail.root@web07.pub01> References: <383888330.947045705190.JavaMail.root@web07.pub01> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:53:22 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: RE: OFF: Homeopathy Works January Newsletter Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2895 Dear Pam - This article was posted because it contained some very good practical information about working with potentized materials, not to advertise a homeopathic company. However, I think anyone making efforts like this deserves our attention. Joe Lillard is the founder of Homeopathy Works! and current ownder of the Washington Homeopathic Pharmacy. He makes homeo remedies at a beautiful homeo pharmacy in Berk. Springs, WV ONE OF THE MOST GORGEOUS PLACES IN THIS COUNTRY AND SITE OF PROBABLY THE BEST MOVIE THEATER LEFT IN AMERICA!!! Joe founded the West Virginia Homeopathic Coop way back when we had no doctors to speak of here in WV. He personally taught hundreds of ...ok...women...to use homeopathy to take care of the medical needs of their growing families. In this fashion he made homeopathy REAL to people who would otherwise have never accepted the concepts. Joe spoke at the first Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening conference and personally operates a homeopathic table at most of the large farming and gardening conferences in this country (At PASA in Feb, I believe.) Joe and Ed Shaeffer, THE homeopathic vet (if you want to read about homeopathic vets, there's a good article on BD Now! web page) will be doing a workshop this spring at Claymont for equine enthusiasts. Be sure to attend!!! Joe makes some very nice homeopathy kits and many people swear by them. He contends that he is one of the few homeo manu. who creates from herbs and not from radionic frequencies. As for Myself, I continue to have my best results from the Boiron products. -Allan Balliett nux, of course >Allan, are you endorsing this company? I was just >wondering today if I should query BDNOW on the >best place to purchase a homeopathic "first aid >kit"! I seem to recall some discussion of it last >year, but perhaps that was in private with you or >Joan. I can't remember or refer to old emails, as >the computer I was using last year has gone to the >great cyber happy hunting grounds. > >Will appreciate any advice. > >Pam > >------Original Message------ >From: Allan Balliett >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Sent: January 4, 2000 10:52:50 PM GMT >Subject: OFF: Homeopathy Works January Newsletter > > >>Subject: Homeopathy Works January Newsletter >>Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:29:08 -0400 >>x-sender: whp@mail.intrepid.net >>From: whp >>To: >> >> This newsletter is from Washington Homeopathic >Products - >>http://www.homeopathyworks.com or 800-336-1695. >The newsletter offers >>info on homeopathy, a special of the month & news >about homeopathy. > >----------------------------------------------- >FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com >Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 10:39:34 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23225 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:39:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23977; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:33:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23037 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.223] (pm3mbr5-166-223.intrepid.net [209.190.166.223]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA26765 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:33:30 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0.b5d938ad.25a43b01@aol.com> References: <0.b5d938ad.25a43b01@aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:32:29 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Follow the Money [was: Intellectual Property] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2896 I'm afraid that you're not listening to what's being said, Andreas. Woody is a long time biodynamic farmer and has the distinction of having started the most biodynamic gardens in the US. He has started and managed several CSAs, including one of the earliest in America. He is a frequent and studied contributor to this list. (But we've missed him is recent months.) He is a biodynamic seed grower (Aurora seed is the best seed I have ever used!!!), a regular contributor to BIODYNAMICS! and ACRES and the author of the soon to be published 'An Aurora Biodynamic Farm for Growing Healthy Vegetables' (or something like that). He completed biodynamic training at Kimberton under the legendary Joel Morrow, and has himself trained or supported numerous people as they have started to learn more about biodynamics. He writes razor sharp prose and he's one hell of a proof reader. I've known him for a long time. He's a level headed, decent man who won't say "shit" until he's had a mouthful of it. When he speaks up as he did a few days ago, you know there's something that needs to be said, because it's getting deep. So, please, don't fault him for his sarcasm (which, incidently, I didn't perceive). And don't ask him to do more work. He's already doing more for everyone than many committees. Sincerely -Allan Balliett moderator BD Now! >Hi Woody, >how about a bit less sarcasm and more constructive suggestions? Seems like >you have an ax to grind...Is it possible for you to act on the board of BDA >for example? Maybe there you could be more helpful.. assuming, of course, >that's what you want to be. >in peace >Andreas >Pennsylvania -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 11:12:52 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24225 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27391; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:07:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27168 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:04:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.223] (pm3mbr5-166-223.intrepid.net [209.190.166.223]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA02142 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:09:18 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:11:29 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: BD Now! and the BDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2897 Dear Friends, Please forgive me as I Rant. In answer to Guillermo's question: the explanation that you have been waiting for since 1998 as to why 'BD Now!' and not 'BD-l' was indeed written, in fact written and re-written. I passed it for review to some of my noted colleagues here - - men who are usually known to have calmer heads than I - - and it was pretty well decided (and I imagine, truly, much to your liking) to just set it aside and to step into the future rather than continue with a topic which, for the time being, was a dead issue. What most people are not aware of was the terrible abuse I was taking behind the scenes during that period; I've held on to that purple bi-polar email and still retain a strong sense that it s.b. posted to the web for everyone to share in. I have, however, deferred to heads that are, at times, clearer than my own. But, a more straight forward answer: at NO TIME has the BDA been asked to leave this list. At NO TIME has the BDA been denied access to this list. It is a well known, I assume, that Bruce B, managing editor of BIODYNAMICS, reads this list. Unfortunately, to date, his participation has been somewhat limited. One can only continue to hope that he will evolve with the membership of this listserve and become less SELF-SERVING and more SERVICE oriented. Maybe one day soon, for example, we'll see intern announcements posted to BD Now! and beyond as they are received on his desk and won't have to buy a magazine or make a trip to the association's web page to see them as though somehow the needs of biodynamic farmers or biodynamic students are proprietary. What a sign of growth and evolution that would be! I called Chuck Beedy (Executive Director of the BDA, for you newbies) yesterday and spoke with him at some length about this copyright issue. While I've come to believe that my beloved Guillermo is open-minded to the point of brown-eyed idiocy (I MEAN, HOW COULD ANYONE WHO IS ABLE TO HOLD TWO CONFLICTING IDEAS IN HIS MIND AT HE SAME TIME AND COMPARE THEM FOR VALUE, QUOTE EINSTEIN (OR HIS MARYILYN MONROE PR MAN, FOR THAT MATTER), THE ONE HUMAN MORE DESPICABLE THAN MONSANTO AND PROBABLY MORE EVIL THAN HITLER, ON SOCIOLOGICAL MATTERS?), I was curious as to what BOTH SIDES of the story are. What I found out is essentially summed up by my questions to Hugh on the list yesterday and his answers to them. To whit: Greg swatted the hive and the bees are doing exactly what is expected of them. My impression is that they are not overreacting and none of the innocent on-lookers are about to be stung. It is important to note that Greg WIllis subscribed to BD Now! this past Saturday and has, through this whole tempest, apparently chosen to remain lurking, playing monkey to Hugh's fluffy pawed kitten. Sorry, Greg, my impression from yesterday's conversation with Chuck is that your nuts - - chestnuts or otherwise - - are still well in the fire. I also discussed with Greg speaking at my conference this past October 1. Gret wanted over $2000 in speaking fees and exhorbitant expenses. Compare this to true genius Al Kapuler who came for free, rode in air coach and BOUGHT A TICKET FOR HIS WIFE TO JOIN HIM and created the most unanticipated spiritual excitement that has been seen on the east coast since Hendrix played Woodstock. For my money: biodynamic education and BIG FEES don't mix...even if you do serve tea. For me, anyone who acts like a madman repeatedly, tries to destroy this listserve with pathetically fake lawsuit threats (Do I worry? No, Envirolink will defend my freedom of speech..to the bone), calls little old ladies 'Nazi,' and is clearly in biodynamics 'for the money,' need not be listened to very seriously when he talks about a prep RS never discussed and JPI does not offer. Now I heard that the 'trademarked' terms on his website are actually NOT legally trademarked. By their fruits you shall know them. Urgh! I, too, long for even more biodynamic horticultural discussion on this list. It's tough turning to the BDA people for this sort of support, however, since, as you may have noticed, many do not have phones, fewer have computers, and even fewer are willing to use email. Chuck and I discussed several names of BD growers who may be appropriate to ask to be involved on BD Now! We settled on probably the best name offered: Heinz Grotzke. Heinz is the author of the superb biodynamic greenhouse book, a BDA boardmember off and on since Pfeiffer directed the BDA (!), a very experienced biodynamic herbalist, and currently editor of BIODYNAMICS. Heinz is not subscribed to BD Now! currently, but Chuck promised to ask him to join. He is not coming here to discuss politics; he is coming here to discuss growing food biodynamically. I hope everyone extends the highest form of respect for him because he is one of the treasures of this movement. The otherside of this is that there appears to be an effort by the biodynamic mainstream to 'ignore' the community that has formed through this listserve. I see no mention of BD Now! in BIODYNAMICS! (I believe there is a link on their web page. Comfirmation?) No mention of BD Now! in the Demeter resource listings nor on their webpage. (And yet they tout the rather Ahramanic ATTRA BD publication, so one is very perplexed as to what their criteria is for inclusion.) My current feeling is that if the BDA is going to be a North American inclusive biodynamic organization, then BD Now! should have the status of any other initiative and be listed accordingly. I would hope that anyone who concurs with this statement would call the BDA or email them at biodynamic@aol.com . They do have the power to pull things together. To push from this end is like the tail trying to push the dog. Regardless, here it's BIODYNAMICS NOW!, not later and definitely not never! This list exists, grows and thrives because other people = = for whatever reason - - are NOT EFFECTIVELY DOING THE JOB of promoting biodynamics and supporting the good people who practicing biodynamics. It's are place to not only support each other but to continually push the people who wear the mantels - - and get the pay checks! - - to do everything they can to create markets for biodynamic food and to provide technical and heart-support for those of us in the fields (which is support for those of you at the tables). So, there is an opening here. If the BDA can accept that this on-line community is performing a much needed function for biodynamic farmers and gardeners around the world and work with us rather than resent us for doing their job .. and if we can work within progressive biodynamics without reacting to this recurring fear (which, believe me, is not irrational - I have the email to prove it!) that we are about to be eaten by something larger, better funded, and more orthodox, there's reason to believe we've entered a new octave and the world's about to become a better place for children of all species. And while you're calling the BDA or writing them about letting their constituency know about this biodynamic discussion community, put in a good word for biodynamics in Mexico, too, will you? To clarify: I'm confident that we can work more closely with the BDA soon. Sincerely and in hope for the Future, -Allan Balliett BD Now! Moderator csa@claymont.org PS It goes without saying: those of you who complain about the discussion of biodynamic politics need to use your delete keys more. Discussion of all aspects of biodynamics is appropriate on this list PPS Those of you who have complained about not enough biodynamic hort. info on this list need to realize that you get back what you put in. Open your BD books, read them, and then ask questions about things you need more information about. If you do this: God bless you, my friend!! (Remember: Hugh was a farmer and a scientist before he became a politician!! :-) ) PPPS To you who are only comforted by the muffled bleating of the status quo as you keep your head down and continue using all of your energies for filling your own belly with your ceaseless split-lipped grazing, try to find some gratitude in your heart for the lone wolves who create these moments of wakefulness that allow for real growth. PPPS And, everyone, please forgive all this self-indulgent sermonizing :-) -------- To Join BD Now!, send email to bdnow@envirolink.org with 'subscribe bdnow YOUR EMAIL YOUR NAME' in the body of the message To leave BD Now! send email to bdnow@envirolink.org with 'unsub' in the body of the message -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 11:23:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24486 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:23:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28621; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:16:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28526 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:16:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.153] (du-148-233-78-153.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNV0024GEOFZP@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:19:30 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 10:20:46 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Rudolf Steiner + Christmas In-reply-to: <385DE9B0.5BC7445A@xtra.co.nz> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2898 >Dear List > > Extract from a lecture given by Rudolf Steiner- December 23rd 1920. > >".........there is something in the depths of man's heart that speaks of >nothing else than of what is purely human and dissolves all >differences. And it is just within these depths that we find the >Christ. > And there is a wisdom which extends far beyond all that can be >discovered concerning single spheres of world existence, a wisdom that >is able to grasp the world in its unity, even in space and time. And >this again is the star-wisdom that leads to Christ. We need to have >again in a new form that which led on the one hand the shepherds of the >field, and on the other hand the Magi of the East to find the way to >Christ. In other words we need to deepen our external perception of >nature through what the heart can develop as spiritual perception of >nature. We must learn once again out of the piety of the human heart >to approach all that to which in modern times the microscope, telescope, >roentgen-rays apparatus and such instruments are applied. Then >will the growing plant, the rushing stream, the murmuring spring, the >lightning and thunder from the clouds, not merely speak to us in an >indifferent way. There will speak to us from the flowers of the field, >from the lightning and thunder of the clouds, from the shining stars and >the radiant sun, there will, as it were, stream into our eyes and into >our hearts, as the result of all our observation of nature, words that >proclaim nothing else than this: "The divine is revealed in the heights >of heaven, and peace shall be among men upon earth who are of good >will". The time must come when our observation of nature sets itself >free from the dry, prosaic, non-human method pursued in the laboratories >and clinics of today. The time must come when our observation of >nature must be irradiated by such life so that the life which can no >longer exist in the way it did for the shepherds of Bethlehem will >nevertheless be able to speak to us through the voices of the plants and >animals, from stars and springs and rivers. For the whole of nature >utters what was uttered by the Angel: "The Divine is revealed in the >heavenly heights and there can be peace among men on Earth who desire to >be of good will" > > > >ref. - Rudolf Steiner - "The search for the new Isis, the divine >Sophia" 1983 Mercury Press >ISBN 0-936132-58-2 Lecture I - p.9. > >JT Dear Friends: I want to thank James for sending the above post from NZ, I believe it is most appropriate to re-read it given the era we are commencing and given the possibility for conflict resolution between us that has being open during the recent events. In good will Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 11:32:11 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24814 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29768; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:26:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29405 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:23:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-30.s30.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.30] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 125tIF-0006pz-00; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:28:15 -0500 Message-ID: <3873716A.95E75B70@erols.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 11:29:30 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2899 Allan: Oops - I didn't get the thing about Einstein being worse than Hitler. Did I read the wrong history books (possible; I certainly read the wrong literary books - imagine, a black man only reading works by dead white men!)? Help me here - R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 11:51:46 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25295 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:51:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01972; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01758 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:44:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha14s177.d.shentel.net [204.111.53.177]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10277 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:52:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <387375D9.4EB11ECC@LightExpression.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 11:48:25 -0500 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Woody and Seeds References: <0.b5d938ad.25a43b01@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2900 Dear Allan........ please read on........ Allan Balliett wrote: > Woody is a long time biodynamic farmer ............. > He is a biodynamic seed grower (Aurora seed is the best seed I have ever > used!!!), NOW -- this is something that I can get my teeth into. Woody, would you please contact me or someone send me means by which I can get a seed catalog! Blessings and Good Will to all in this new year. It's time to order seeds! Love to allllllllll............ Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 12:01:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25564 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:01:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02996; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:55:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02892 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:54:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-30.s30.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.30] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 125tlr-0002Vp-00; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:58:51 -0500 Message-ID: <3873789B.97B371F4@erols.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 12:00:12 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Woody and Seeds References: <0.b5d938ad.25a43b01@aol.com> <387375D9.4EB11ECC@LightExpression.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2901 Woody - I'll second that. How can I get an Aurora seed cat.? R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 12:05:51 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25645 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:05:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03671; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:00:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03057 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:55:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha14s177.d.shentel.net [204.111.53.177]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10890 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:03:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38737884.BBC00AFE@LightExpression.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 11:59:48 -0500 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2902 please read on..... Allan Balliett wrote: > We settled on probably > the best name offered: Heinz Grotzke. Heinz is the author of the > superb biodynamic greenhouse book, OK -- more good news....... So, what's the name of the book and where can I get a copy? I love this list -- better than a soap opera......... Best to all! Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 12:10:43 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25735 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:10:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04542; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:04:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03880 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:01:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha14s177.d.shentel.net [204.111.53.177]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11159 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:08:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <387379C1.1400F082@LightExpression.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 12:05:05 -0500 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Field Broadcasters References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2903 Hugh Lovel wrote: > Prior to this I have kept my mouth shut about my biodynamic field > broadcasters and just called them field broadcasters. This has been > worrying me for quite some time, because the real truth is they are > biodynamic field broadcasters So Hugh -- only trying to state the obvious -- perhaps you could trademark "Bio-Dynamic Field Broadcasters" -- or get permission from whomever (in fact) holds the BD trademark. Seems like a reasonable request in promotion and best interest of all BD concepts -- providing everyone is working from integrity in this matter. Integrity is in fact a spiritual concept which humanity is in need of healing and is in fact healing. Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 12:15:55 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25834 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:15:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05276; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:09:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (popper1.vphos.net [207.102.129.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05084 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:08:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.125]) by popper1.vphos.net ; Wed, 05 Jan 2000 09:13:46 -0800 Message-ID: <002001bf57a0$375d2ba0$7dcb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <0.b5d938ad.25a43b01@aol.com> <387375D9.4EB11ECC@LightExpression.com> <3873789B.97B371F4@erols.com> Subject: Re: Woody and Seeds Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:05:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2904 Robert: Thanks for asking! We do have a printed, mailed version for $3, but the email catalogue is free... Woody and Barbara Aurora Farm Seeds Aurora Biodynamic Farm 3492 Phillips Road Creston, B C CANADA V0B 1G2 Phone/Fax 250-428-4404 Email: aurora@kootenay.com Website: www.kootenay.com/~aurora All seeds are open-pollinated (non-hybrid) and untreated. They are cultivated in accordance with Biodynamic (life-force) principles. Biodynamics is an agricultural practice initiated by Rudolf Steiner in the 1920's. The farmer focuses upon stimulating life forces in the soil through the application of Biodynamic preparations. Our permanent beds are enlivened each year with composted manure--which has been treated with these special preparations made from 6 plants: chamomile, dandelion, oak bark, stinging nettle, valerian, and yarrow--and then mulched.We list seeds according to the part of the plant which is mainly utilized. Plants are viewed as fourfold in nature: root, leaf, flower and fruit which correspond to the four elements: earth, water, air and fire. Seeds are planted and harvested according to this four-fold principle. We use the STELLA*NATURA calendar. For instance, carrot seed is worked only during "root days". This allows the cosmic forces to penetrate and stimulate an elemental balance between soil, plant, and animal life resulting in optimal nutrition, flavour, and keeping qualities. Seeds cost $3.00 per packet except where noted otherwise. The number of seeds per packet will vary according to the seed type, but is ample for family gardens. We no longer mention "Days to Maturity" as so many catalogs do. Often as not, this raises expectations which are not met. We grow ALL our own seeds. We don't like to define our work negatively, but we get lots of questions in this realm, so here goes: NO genetically engineered seeds...NO artificial fertilizers...NO hybrids...NO pesticides...NO seed treatments. Just the real thing-seeds our ancestors, and yours, might have grown. Year 2000 Catalogue Edition revised December,1999 ROOT - Earth Element BEETS - Lutz Green Leaf Excellent greens; large roots are sweet and keep well CARROTS - Amsterdam forcing Gains flavour and color while still small; sweet, good storage ECHINACEA - Purpurea Purple, crimson fragrant flower; beneficial to immune system seeds need cold stratification (P) LEEKS - Carentan Excellent flavour, will overwinter and store well - King Richard Fast growing, mild flavour PARSNIPS - Hollow Crown Long smooth sweet root with excellent keep ing qualities - Turga A sweet parsnip which has been grown Biodynamically for generations (P) = Perennial LEAF - Water Element CABBAGE - Rodynda Red storage cabbage with tight 6-8 inch heads and delightful flavour CHINESE CABBAGE - Bok Choy Vigorous plant with deep green thick leaves and wide white stems which are wonderful in stirfry and soups; early spring and late summer planting CHIVES - A must in every garden, having numerous culinary uses (P) CILANTRO - Fresh leaves are the main ingredient in salsa and the seeds (coriander) may be ground for spice;self seeds freely COPPER FENNEL - Licorice flavoured bronze coloured leaves Tasty addition to salads (P) DILL - Bouquet Smaller plant (3') with larger lacy leaf; self seeds freely - Mammoth Plants up to 5' producing abundant leaves and seed; self seeds freely FRENCH SORREL - Sour green leaves make one of the earliest salad ingredients; highly desired by French chefs for soups KALE- Russian Red Excellent flavour, red, frilly, oakleaf shaped leaves - Siberian Hardy, fast growing; blue-green slightly curled leaves LAVENDER - A favourite for everyone; excellent for herbal baths and good for depression LETTUCE - Batavia Laura Savoyed, light green head lettuce - Black Seeded Simpson Large, tender lettuce with green-white leaves, slow to bolt - Rouge d'Hiver Favourite French heirloom with butterhead and romaine characteristics LOVAGE Plants grow to 5-7 feet; strong celery flavour used in soups and stews (P) MARSHMALLOW Perennial herb used in teas and as a demulcent (P) MUGWORT Known as Mother-of-Herbs in pre-Christian times; used in acupuncture (P) MULLEIN Stately, velvet-leaved plant grows to 7 feet with several 1-2 foot flower stalks; many medicinal uses PARSLEY - Italian Tall, flat-leafed variety with superb flavour (P) SHOO-FLY PLANT Traps white flies on leaves; greenhouse use for pest control SHUNGIKU OR GARLAND CHRYSANTHEMUM Yellow flowering plant used in Oriental cuisine; also known as chop suey green SPINACH - Giant Winter Smooth large leaves; very hardy with wonderful flavour - Winter Bloomsdale A savoy type with excellent flavour, hardy and dependable - Red Orach (Mountain Spinach) 2-6 feet beautiful red leaves; delicious in salads STINGING NETTLE One of the Biodynamic compost preparation plants; a great spring tonic; fermented nettle tea is a wonderful foliar feeding for garden plants SWEET CICELY Licorice flavoured, up to 5 feet; wonderful in salads and herb teas (P) TOBACCO - Virginia Smoking Pre-Columbian cultivar, the principal variety grown commercially - Wild Small compact leaves on a 2-3 foot plant; makes a spray to discourage insects YELLOW DOCK - Queen of blood purifiers; very high in organic iron FLOWER - Air Element AFRICAN DAISY 2 foot plant; flowers have steel blue, gold rimmed centers and white petals CALIFORNIA POPPY Bright orange, rapid self sowing annual CALENDULA - (Pot Marigold) yellow-orange, 1-2 feet, self sowing CHAMOMILE - German Beautiful small blooms make wonderful tea; a Biodynamic preparation plant; self seeds COLUMBINE - A mix of blues, yellow, purple and pink; primarily bi-colored; attracts hummingbirds COSMOS MIX Crimson, pink and white, bee and border annual; self seeds DALMATION PYRETHRUM Chrysanthemum-like perennial used to make insect-discouraging powder EVENING PRIMROSE A very hardy 3-4 toot plant with seeds high in gamma- linoleic acid; reported to be beneficial in menopause, multiple sclerosis FEVERFEW A 2 foot perennial used for headaches; nice border plant HOLLYHOCK - Garden Tomb of Jesus Pure white flower, a beauty; self seeds - Single Pink, 5-8' lovely against fences or walls; self seeds LUNARIA - Sweet scented purple flower yields silver dollar seed pods for drying LUPINE - Russell Deep blue, purple and yellow variety that enjoys a light soil and partial shade (P) POPPY - Bread Seed A blue-black seed used in baking cakes and muffins; self seeding - Tall Mix Beautiful pastels with some frilly petal types nice border annual; self seeding ST JOHN'S WORT - A hardy perennial which is used for herbal extracts and oil; up to 2 feet tall with yellow flowers SWEET WILLIAM - Crimson, scarlet, pink and white variegated biennial ZINNIA - State Fair Mix Many coloured 2-3' flowers which will delight you all summer long FRUIT - Fire Element BEANS - Pinto An early maturing variety of bush bean, good fresh or dry - Kidney Bush bean with mold resistant pods, wonderful for hearty winter soups and chili - Provider Early, dependable, prolific fresh green bean -Golden Rocky Yellow wax bean, flavourful and prolific CORN - Hooker's Sweet Indian Thin 5-7" ears, white or bi-color kernels, finest taste; matures blue-black - Mandan Bride A beautiful red flour corn from the Mandan people of North Dakota CUCUMBER - Marketmore A slicer; along with "Straight 8," this is an old time standard salad cuke FLAX - Blue flowers with edible seed that may be pressed for oil MILK THISTLE- known for 2000 years as blood cleanser and liver remedy; clears toxins; all parts edible; grows up to 4 feet; beautifully patterned leaves POPCORN - Dwarf Strawberry Small ears for popping or ornamental use PUMPKIN - Small Sugar Very sweet, excellent for pies and storage SQUASH - Hopi Pale Grey Very vigorous vines with tasty 6-10 lb fruits; light to dark grey; good keeper SUNFLOWER - Mammoth Russian Popular, large-headed variety up to 12' tall - Tarahumara Pure white seed with solid gold flowers; from Mexico TOMATO - Chadwick's Cherry Developed by Alan Chadwick and probably the best overall cherry tomato; highly productive and somewhat rare; requires staking - Kootenai Early, compact vines with large juicy fruits of fine flavour and heavy yield; a non-staking bush type - Money Maker Old English variety; sets freely in any weather; smooth 4 oz, deep red globes; medium early and yeavy yields; requires staking - Opal's Homestead Old Kentucky strain with excellent flavour, large red flattened fruits; bush - Oregon Spring One of the earliest to fruit; good flavor; so- called bush plant, but we stake - Red Pear Prolific, scarlet pear-shaped small fruits; a favourite for canning or fresh eating; requires staking - Ruth's Perfect Variably-sized, nicely shaped fruit averaging 2-3 to the pound; requires staking Biodynamically grown for many years - Yellow Pear Low acid, pear shaped fruits; prolific; heirloom from late 1800s; requires staking QUINOA - Temuco Small white highly nutritious seed, edible greens, and very hardy; an Incan staple; makes a wonderful porridge MEDICINAL HERB COLLECTION We are well aware that the law guards the conventional medical establishment's exclusive right to dispense advice on health and illness. For educational and research purposes, however, we can recommend the following powerful plant allies to your attention and offer a collection including one seed package of each at a special price. You don't have to sow them all this year, but it's good to have them on hand! Echinacea Purpurea - said to be beneficial for the immune system St. John's Wort -- traditionally used to bring light to depressed people Milk Thistle -- anciently regarded as a blood and liver cleanser Lavender -- a favourite for aromatherapy; relaxes and soothes Yellow Dock - another historically important blood purifier; highest source of organic iron among plants Evening Primrose - in the herbal literature beneficial in menopause and multiple sclerosis Feverfew -- old time headache remedy Marshmallow - demulcent; root infusion said to benefit gastric ulcers, coughs, diarrhea, insomnia Mugwort - known as "Mother-of-Herbs" since pre-Christian times; aids digestion, regulates menstruation Virginia Tobacco - if you smoke, grow your own, additive-free; if you don't, you may wish to follow the Native American custom and use it ceremonially as an offering 10 medicinal herb seed packets, $24 -- save $6 HERBAL ALTERNATIVES FIRST AID KIT Echinacea-for the immune system Tinctures: Peppermint-for colds, flue and stomach Skullcap-for nerves, PMS, headache Valerian--for sedative Oils: Arnica...externally for muscle aches and sprains St. John's Wort...wounds, sores, inflamation, burns, depression Each alternative comes in a 30 ml dropper bottle. Tinctures are produced with Biodynamically grown plant material in 40% alcohol. Oils are sun processed in organic olive oil. All six alternatives for $85-save $15 ORDER FORM Aurora Biodynamic Farm 3492 Phillips Road Creston, B C CANADA V0B 1G2 Email: aurora@kootenay.com Phone/Fax 250-428-4404 Website: www.kootenay.com/~aurora YOUR NAME____________________________________________________ ___ ADDRESS_________________________________________________ ________ CITY,PROVINCE(STATE)________________________________________ _____ POSTAL CODE______________PHONE_________________________________ EMAIL___________________________ Seeds are $3 per packet Garlic is $16 per pound plus shipping surcharge Please send your check or money order with this form. And thank you very much. Your order helps us to be good stewards of the land. Together we can heal our Mother Earth, in cooperation. ...and thank you very much! ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Farr To: Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 10:00 AM Subject: Re: Woody and Seeds > Woody - I'll second that. > > How can I get an Aurora seed cat.? > > R. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 12:16:10 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25847 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:16:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05386; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:10:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (popper1.vphos.net [207.102.129.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05095 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:09:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.125]) by popper1.vphos.net ; Wed, 05 Jan 2000 09:13:52 -0800 Message-ID: <002101bf57a0$3acc13a0$7dcb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <0.b5d938ad.25a43b01@aol.com> <387375D9.4EB11ECC@LightExpression.com> Subject: Re: Woody and Seeds Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:06:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2905 Wayne and Sharon Thanks for asking! We do have a printed, mailed version for $3, but the email catalogue is free... Woody and Barbara Aurora Farm Seeds Aurora Biodynamic Farm 3492 Phillips Road Creston, B C CANADA V0B 1G2 Phone/Fax 250-428-4404 Email: aurora@kootenay.com Website: www.kootenay.com/~aurora All seeds are open-pollinated (non-hybrid) and untreated. They are cultivated in accordance with Biodynamic (life-force) principles. Biodynamics is an agricultural practice initiated by Rudolf Steiner in the 1920's. The farmer focuses upon stimulating life forces in the soil through the application of Biodynamic preparations. Our permanent beds are enlivened each year with composted manure--which has been treated with these special preparations made from 6 plants: chamomile, dandelion, oak bark, stinging nettle, valerian, and yarrow--and then mulched.We list seeds according to the part of the plant which is mainly utilized. Plants are viewed as fourfold in nature: root, leaf, flower and fruit which correspond to the four elements: earth, water, air and fire. Seeds are planted and harvested according to this four-fold principle. We use the STELLA*NATURA calendar. For instance, carrot seed is worked only during "root days". This allows the cosmic forces to penetrate and stimulate an elemental balance between soil, plant, and animal life resulting in optimal nutrition, flavour, and keeping qualities. Seeds cost $3.00 per packet except where noted otherwise. The number of seeds per packet will vary according to the seed type, but is ample for family gardens. We no longer mention "Days to Maturity" as so many catalogs do. Often as not, this raises expectations which are not met. We grow ALL our own seeds. We don't like to define our work negatively, but we get lots of questions in this realm, so here goes: NO genetically engineered seeds...NO artificial fertilizers...NO hybrids...NO pesticides...NO seed treatments. Just the real thing-seeds our ancestors, and yours, might have grown. Year 2000 Catalogue Edition revised December,1999 ROOT - Earth Element BEETS - Lutz Green Leaf Excellent greens; large roots are sweet and keep well CARROTS - Amsterdam forcing Gains flavour and color while still small; sweet, good storage ECHINACEA - Purpurea Purple, crimson fragrant flower; beneficial to immune system seeds need cold stratification (P) LEEKS - Carentan Excellent flavour, will overwinter and store well - King Richard Fast growing, mild flavour PARSNIPS - Hollow Crown Long smooth sweet root with excellent keep ing qualities - Turga A sweet parsnip which has been grown Biodynamically for generations (P) = Perennial LEAF - Water Element CABBAGE - Rodynda Red storage cabbage with tight 6-8 inch heads and delightful flavour CHINESE CABBAGE - Bok Choy Vigorous plant with deep green thick leaves and wide white stems which are wonderful in stirfry and soups; early spring and late summer planting CHIVES - A must in every garden, having numerous culinary uses (P) CILANTRO - Fresh leaves are the main ingredient in salsa and the seeds (coriander) may be ground for spice;self seeds freely COPPER FENNEL - Licorice flavoured bronze coloured leaves Tasty addition to salads (P) DILL - Bouquet Smaller plant (3') with larger lacy leaf; self seeds freely - Mammoth Plants up to 5' producing abundant leaves and seed; self seeds freely FRENCH SORREL - Sour green leaves make one of the earliest salad ingredients; highly desired by French chefs for soups KALE- Russian Red Excellent flavour, red, frilly, oakleaf shaped leaves - Siberian Hardy, fast growing; blue-green slightly curled leaves LAVENDER - A favourite for everyone; excellent for herbal baths and good for depression LETTUCE - Batavia Laura Savoyed, light green head lettuce - Black Seeded Simpson Large, tender lettuce with green-white leaves, slow to bolt - Rouge d'Hiver Favourite French heirloom with butterhead and romaine characteristics LOVAGE Plants grow to 5-7 feet; strong celery flavour used in soups and stews (P) MARSHMALLOW Perennial herb used in teas and as a demulcent (P) MUGWORT Known as Mother-of-Herbs in pre-Christian times; used in acupuncture (P) MULLEIN Stately, velvet-leaved plant grows to 7 feet with several 1-2 foot flower stalks; many medicinal uses PARSLEY - Italian Tall, flat-leafed variety with superb flavour (P) SHOO-FLY PLANT Traps white flies on leaves; greenhouse use for pest control SHUNGIKU OR GARLAND CHRYSANTHEMUM Yellow flowering plant used in Oriental cuisine; also known as chop suey green SPINACH - Giant Winter Smooth large leaves; very hardy with wonderful flavour - Winter Bloomsdale A savoy type with excellent flavour, hardy and dependable - Red Orach (Mountain Spinach) 2-6 feet beautiful red leaves; delicious in salads STINGING NETTLE One of the Biodynamic compost preparation plants; a great spring tonic; fermented nettle tea is a wonderful foliar feeding for garden plants SWEET CICELY Licorice flavoured, up to 5 feet; wonderful in salads and herb teas (P) TOBACCO - Virginia Smoking Pre-Columbian cultivar, the principal variety grown commercially - Wild Small compact leaves on a 2-3 foot plant; makes a spray to discourage insects YELLOW DOCK - Queen of blood purifiers; very high in organic iron FLOWER - Air Element AFRICAN DAISY 2 foot plant; flowers have steel blue, gold rimmed centers and white petals CALIFORNIA POPPY Bright orange, rapid self sowing annual CALENDULA - (Pot Marigold) yellow-orange, 1-2 feet, self sowing CHAMOMILE - German Beautiful small blooms make wonderful tea; a Biodynamic preparation plant; self seeds COLUMBINE - A mix of blues, yellow, purple and pink; primarily bi-colored; attracts hummingbirds COSMOS MIX Crimson, pink and white, bee and border annual; self seeds DALMATION PYRETHRUM Chrysanthemum-like perennial used to make insect-discouraging powder EVENING PRIMROSE A very hardy 3-4 toot plant with seeds high in gamma- linoleic acid; reported to be beneficial in menopause, multiple sclerosis FEVERFEW A 2 foot perennial used for headaches; nice border plant HOLLYHOCK - Garden Tomb of Jesus Pure white flower, a beauty; self seeds - Single Pink, 5-8' lovely against fences or walls; self seeds LUNARIA - Sweet scented purple flower yields silver dollar seed pods for drying LUPINE - Russell Deep blue, purple and yellow variety that enjoys a light soil and partial shade (P) POPPY - Bread Seed A blue-black seed used in baking cakes and muffins; self seeding - Tall Mix Beautiful pastels with some frilly petal types nice border annual; self seeding ST JOHN'S WORT - A hardy perennial which is used for herbal extracts and oil; up to 2 feet tall with yellow flowers SWEET WILLIAM - Crimson, scarlet, pink and white variegated biennial ZINNIA - State Fair Mix Many coloured 2-3' flowers which will delight you all summer long FRUIT - Fire Element BEANS - Pinto An early maturing variety of bush bean, good fresh or dry - Kidney Bush bean with mold resistant pods, wonderful for hearty winter soups and chili - Provider Early, dependable, prolific fresh green bean -Golden Rocky Yellow wax bean, flavourful and prolific CORN - Hooker's Sweet Indian Thin 5-7" ears, white or bi-color kernels, finest taste; matures blue-black - Mandan Bride A beautiful red flour corn from the Mandan people of North Dakota CUCUMBER - Marketmore A slicer; along with "Straight 8," this is an old time standard salad cuke FLAX - Blue flowers with edible seed that may be pressed for oil MILK THISTLE- known for 2000 years as blood cleanser and liver remedy; clears toxins; all parts edible; grows up to 4 feet; beautifully patterned leaves POPCORN - Dwarf Strawberry Small ears for popping or ornamental use PUMPKIN - Small Sugar Very sweet, excellent for pies and storage SQUASH - Hopi Pale Grey Very vigorous vines with tasty 6-10 lb fruits; light to dark grey; good keeper SUNFLOWER - Mammoth Russian Popular, large-headed variety up to 12' tall - Tarahumara Pure white seed with solid gold flowers; from Mexico TOMATO - Chadwick's Cherry Developed by Alan Chadwick and probably the best overall cherry tomato; highly productive and somewhat rare; requires staking - Kootenai Early, compact vines with large juicy fruits of fine flavour and heavy yield; a non-staking bush type - Money Maker Old English variety; sets freely in any weather; smooth 4 oz, deep red globes; medium early and yeavy yields; requires staking - Opal's Homestead Old Kentucky strain with excellent flavour, large red flattened fruits; bush - Oregon Spring One of the earliest to fruit; good flavor; so- called bush plant, but we stake - Red Pear Prolific, scarlet pear-shaped small fruits; a favourite for canning or fresh eating; requires staking - Ruth's Perfect Variably-sized, nicely shaped fruit averaging 2-3 to the pound; requires staking Biodynamically grown for many years - Yellow Pear Low acid, pear shaped fruits; prolific; heirloom from late 1800s; requires staking QUINOA - Temuco Small white highly nutritious seed, edible greens, and very hardy; an Incan staple; makes a wonderful porridge MEDICINAL HERB COLLECTION We are well aware that the law guards the conventional medical establishment's exclusive right to dispense advice on health and illness. For educational and research purposes, however, we can recommend the following powerful plant allies to your attention and offer a collection including one seed package of each at a special price. You don't have to sow them all this year, but it's good to have them on hand! Echinacea Purpurea - said to be beneficial for the immune system St. John's Wort -- traditionally used to bring light to depressed people Milk Thistle -- anciently regarded as a blood and liver cleanser Lavender -- a favourite for aromatherapy; relaxes and soothes Yellow Dock - another historically important blood purifier; highest source of organic iron among plants Evening Primrose - in the herbal literature beneficial in menopause and multiple sclerosis Feverfew -- old time headache remedy Marshmallow - demulcent; root infusion said to benefit gastric ulcers, coughs, diarrhea, insomnia Mugwort - known as "Mother-of-Herbs" since pre-Christian times; aids digestion, regulates menstruation Virginia Tobacco - if you smoke, grow your own, additive-free; if you don't, you may wish to follow the Native American custom and use it ceremonially as an offering 10 medicinal herb seed packets, $24 -- save $6 HERBAL ALTERNATIVES FIRST AID KIT Echinacea-for the immune system Tinctures: Peppermint-for colds, flue and stomach Skullcap-for nerves, PMS, headache Valerian--for sedative Oils: Arnica...externally for muscle aches and sprains St. John's Wort...wounds, sores, inflamation, burns, depression Each alternative comes in a 30 ml dropper bottle. Tinctures are produced with Biodynamically grown plant material in 40% alcohol. Oils are sun processed in organic olive oil. All six alternatives for $85-save $15 ORDER FORM Aurora Biodynamic Farm 3492 Phillips Road Creston, B C CANADA V0B 1G2 Email: aurora@kootenay.com Phone/Fax 250-428-4404 Website: www.kootenay.com/~aurora YOUR NAME____________________________________________________ ___ ADDRESS_________________________________________________ ________ CITY,PROVINCE(STATE)________________________________________ _____ POSTAL CODE______________PHONE_________________________________ EMAIL___________________________ Seeds are $3 per packet Garlic is $16 per pound plus shipping surcharge Please send your check or money order with this form. And thank you very much. Your order helps us to be good stewards of the land. Together we can heal our Mother Earth, in cooperation. ...and thank you very much! ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern To: Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 9:48 AM Subject: Re: Woody and Seeds > Dear Allan........ > > please read on........ > > Allan Balliett wrote: > > > Woody is a long time biodynamic farmer ............. > > > He is a biodynamic seed grower (Aurora seed is the best seed I have ever > > used!!!), > > NOW -- this is something that I can get my teeth into. Woody, would you please > contact me or someone send me means by which I can get a seed catalog! > > Blessings and Good Will to all in this new year. It's time to order seeds! > > Love to allllllllll............ > > Wayne > > *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* > > Sharon and Wayne McEachern > > http://www.LightExpression.com > > Essences@LightExpression.com > > "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" > > *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 12:20:24 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25993 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:20:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06226; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:14:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (popper1.vphos.net [207.102.129.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05962 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:13:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.125]) by popper1.vphos.net ; Wed, 05 Jan 2000 09:18:39 -0800 Message-ID: <002901bf57a0$e60da120$7dcb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: Subject: Apologies for Inadvertent Spam Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:18:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2906 To the List: Robert Farr and Wayne and Sharon kindly asked for the Aurora Biodynamic Farm Year 2000 catalogue, which we, of course were happy to provide in email format. Unfortunately, I hit REPLY, instead of digging out their personal email addresses and BDNOW! is again burdened with more l-o-n-g posts. My apologies. Woody From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 12:39:42 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26337 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:39:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09744; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:33:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09686 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:33:27 -0500 (EST) From: Ezentrix@aol.com Received: from Ezentrix@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.8c.8c174f65 (4420) for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:37:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8c.8c174f65.25a4db6a@aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:37:46 EST Subject: Re: Woody and Seeds To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 44 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2907 Greetings, I would like to receive the email seed catalog Kind regards Richard Jennings From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 13:04:10 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27224 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:04:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12807; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:57:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12343 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:53:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.223] (pm3mbr1-166-19.intrepid.net [209.190.166.19]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA27094 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:58:33 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3873716A.95E75B70@erols.com> References: <3873716A.95E75B70@erols.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:56:54 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2908 Robert - Christ, this is the first comment that comes from that post? :-) Einstein provided the intellectual insight that led to the development of the atomic bomb and had neither the humanity nor the insight to hold it back. I don't REALLY REALLY think he's an evil man - - this is what always happens when men work for the king instead of the people - - but I really question the WHOLESOMENESS of calling him "MAN of the CENTURY" as the military industrial multi-national shadow government pulications seem to be doing. Or, look at it this way, if bombing civilian populations in Japan was really a bankholdup, Einstein would definitely be seen as an accomplice. And let's never forget how the bomb, the power plants and the waste have held us hostage for more than half of this century. Why, what did they say in your history books? >Allan: > >Oops - I didn't get the thing about Einstein being worse than Hitler. > >Did I read the wrong history books (possible; I certainly read the wrong >literary books - imagine, a black man only reading works by dead white >men!)? > >Help me here - > >R. -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 13:04:10 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27225 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:04:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12874; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:58:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12371 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:53:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.223] (pm3mbr1-166-19.intrepid.net [209.190.166.19]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA27163 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:58:47 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002901bf57a0$e60da120$7dcb6cce@netacc.net> References: <002901bf57a0$e60da120$7dcb6cce@netacc.net> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:59:42 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Apologies for Inadvertent Spam Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2909 Technically, this was NOT spam. Howabout the web address, Woody? Or - you can linkthrough to AURORA FARM SEEDS on the search engine (answer) page at BD Now! www.igg.com/bdnow I'll tell you: just throw them down on concrete or anywhere...water...and STAND BACK!!! -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 13:32:49 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27807 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:32:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16283; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:26:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [154.11.89.179]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15642 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:21:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1737 invoked from network); 5 Jan 2000 18:26:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.44.83) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 5 Jan 2000 18:26:49 -0000 Message-ID: <008401bf57aa$25d16540$9f26d2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:24:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2910 Einstein himself categorized his letter to FDR that sparked the Manhattan Project into existence as the "worst mistake of my life". Subsequently he worked hard for disarmament, but life is lived forward, not backwards. We can understand Einstein's motives by realizing that the Nazis themselves, the real ones who were not only "as bad as Hitler" but actually led by Hitler himself, gassed millions of Jews and other dissidents and people they felt were inferior, were busy working on their own atomic weapons program, and Einstein and others feared lest they get there first..... Anyway, here we all are, bombs and everything....we're so sorry, Uncle Albert....at least Pandora's Box still has Hope in it, right? Frank Teuton -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 1:06 PM Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA >Robert - > >Christ, this is the first comment that comes from that post? :-) > >Einstein provided the intellectual insight that led to the >development of the atomic bomb and had neither the humanity nor the >insight to hold it back. I don't REALLY REALLY think he's an evil man >- - this is what always happens when men work for the king instead of >the people - - but I really question the WHOLESOMENESS of calling >him "MAN of the CENTURY" as the military industrial multi-national >shadow government pulications seem to be doing. Or, look at it this >way, if bombing civilian populations in Japan was really a >bankholdup, Einstein would definitely be seen as an accomplice. And >let's never forget how the bomb, the power plants and the waste have >held us hostage for more than half of this century. > >Why, what did they say in your history books? > > > > >>Allan: >> >>Oops - I didn't get the thing about Einstein being worse than Hitler. >> >>Did I read the wrong history books (possible; I certainly read the wrong >>literary books - imagine, a black man only reading works by dead white >>men!)? >> >>Help me here - >> >>R. > >-- > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 13:33:01 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27824 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:33:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16346; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16087 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:25:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-30.s30.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.30] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 125vBe-0001UU-00; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:29:35 -0500 Message-ID: <38738DDF.D9357BFC@erols.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 13:30:55 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA References: <3873716A.95E75B70@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2911 Ah - after I sent that, I thought that might be what you meant. But from what I remember reading, Einstein didn't develop the concept as an excuse to destroy the world, but as a way to help us unlock the secrets of the universe (forget, of course, what the military-industrial complex wants you to believe). The mistake we (that is, man) made was to open the seventh seal before we had mastered the first. So, I don't think that makes him as bad as Hitler. Eistein was an inquirer; Hitler, a destroyer. Maybe Albert was Vishnu and Shiva, but Adolf was Kali. As for the literary thing, don't you think it's odd that our universities teach Whitman and Pound and Yeats and Williams, but leave out Franz Fanon, Sam Allen, Sonia Sanchez, Amiri Baraka, Dennis Brutus, Gwen Brooks, Eldridge Cleaver, and Ishmael Reed? Just a thought - Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 14:16:32 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28851 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:16:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21655; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:10:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.gloryroad.net (mail.gloryroad.net [216.228.97.43]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21299 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:06:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from wills (opop2-247.gloryroad.net [216.228.104.247]) by mail.gloryroad.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 7FC37FC802 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:58:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38739B3D.C84@gloryroad.net> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 14:27:57 -0500 From: Will Hicks Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Woody and Seeds References: <8c.8c174f65.25a4db6a@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2912 Ezentrix@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings, I would like to receive the email seed catalog > > Kind regards > Richard Jennings I would too! Will Hicks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 15:33:43 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02700 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:33:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00629; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:27:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00314 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:24:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.23.alltel.net [166.102.66.23]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id OAA20946 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:29:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <387379C1.1400F082@LightExpression.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:31:09 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Field Broadcasters Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2913 >Hugh Lovel wrote: > >> Prior to this I have kept my mouth shut about my biodynamic field >> broadcasters and just called them field broadcasters. This has been >> worrying me for quite some time, because the real truth is they are >> biodynamic field broadcasters > >So Hugh -- only trying to state the obvious -- perhaps you could trademark >"Bio-Dynamic Field Broadcasters" -- or get permission from whomever (in fact) >holds the BD trademark. Seems like a reasonable request in promotion and best >interest of all BD concepts -- providing everyone is working from integrity in >this matter. Integrity is in fact a spiritual concept which humanity is >in need >of healing and is in fact healing. > >Wayne >*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* > >Sharon and Wayne McEachern Dear Wayne, Who knows if everyone is working with integrity in this matter? I wouldn't want to make too many assumptions, would you? I'm basically only concerned with seeing that I'm part of the filing process with Greg and Courtney so I can be sure that the term BD preps is trademarked for the public domain, AND that Demeter makes out an affadavit to the effect they are conveying THEIR trademark of biodynamic to the public domain. Both parts are key interests of mine. Other than that I consider this whole business rather foolish. I'm sure there will end up being all kinds of people making biodynamic field broadcasters, including, hopefully, at least a handful who really know what they are doing. So what? From my point of view I HOPE so. If I really wanted to capitalize on such a thing I'd set up at least three stockholder corporations competing with each other and own a hefty chunk of stock in all three. It would be far more profitable than to have one company. Coke wouldn't be nearly so ubiquitous without Pepsi, you know? There's probably cokes in the Gobi Desert, to say nothing of the polar stations, by now for crying out loud. What do I really care if I can get the result that the benefits of our preparations are applied to the widest possible areas over the entire earth? So MANY people lose sight of the real objectives in the light of personal ambition. THAT (and a few similar things) was the REAL message I tried to get out there as a result of all this brou-ha-ha Did anyone get that? Do I hear any sign that anyone learned something from all this? Warm regards, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 17:05:24 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04713 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:05:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11502; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:59:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from fep8.mail.ozemail.net (fep8.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.102]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11266 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:56:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (slmlb2p39.ozemail.com.au [210.84.129.103]) by fep8.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA26666 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:00:53 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <008501bf582c$f155ca80$678154d2@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: References: <001901bf561f$8d845c60$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Subject: Trip to Australia Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:00:40 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2914 Hugh Tell us about your trip to Australia - EVERYTHING? Regards Gwenda From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 17:33:44 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05178 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:33:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14226; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:27:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from m11.boston.juno.com (m11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.194]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAB13840 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:24:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from laquerencia@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EVLSTC72; Wed, 05 Jan 2000 17:28:49 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:29:53 -0600 Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Message-ID: <20000105.162953.4982.1.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-6,11-14 From: Deborah M Byron Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2915 Allan (his knickers all aknotted) wrote: (And yet they tout the rather Ahramanic ATTRA BD >publication, so one is very perplexed as to what their criteria is >for inclusion.) Allan, I grok that you were attempting to slam everyone in one expedient post, but do you really want to relegate the good hardworking, underpaid people at ATTRA to your enemies list? Its hard to imagine that you really mean to characterize their work as *evil*. Pretty strong language--what in the samhill are you talking about, boy? Yours in puzzlement, Deborah Byron ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 17:43:52 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05295 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:43:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA15124; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:37:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14951 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:35:52 -0500 (EST) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.98.985da6a2 (3892) for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:40:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <98.985da6a2.25a5224c@aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:40:12 EST Subject: Re: Good news Guillermo To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2916 In a message dated 00-01-04 21:58:57 EST, Hugh wrote: << my biodynamic fiend broadcasters >> Question: are those the biody manics? Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 17:48:20 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05345 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:48:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA15587; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:42:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15119 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:37:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.223] (pm3mbr5-166-235.intrepid.net [209.190.166.235]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA29781 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:42:28 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38738DDF.D9357BFC@erols.com> References: <3873716A.95E75B70@erols.com> <38738DDF.D9357BFC@erols.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:06:22 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: They taught us how to read but didn't give us the right poets WAS Re: BD Now! and the BDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2917 I guess I'm just happy that we've gotten so much mileage out of the Hurricane Carter story. And I'm jealous as hell of Puffy. Teach me, my friend: where did Eldridge and LeRoi write on the level of initiates like Whitman or Yeats? >As for the literary thing, don't you think it's odd that our >universities teach Whitman and Pound and Yeats and Williams, but leave >out Franz Fanon, Sam Allen, Sonia Sanchez, Amiri Baraka, Dennis Brutus, >Gwen Brooks, Eldridge Cleaver, and Ishmael Reed? > >Just a thought - > >Robert. -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 17:48:35 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05357 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:48:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA15675; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:42:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from fep8.mail.ozemail.net (fep8.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.102]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15395 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:41:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (slmlb23p35.ozemail.com.au [210.84.134.163]) by fep8.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA16453 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:46:04 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <00b601bf5833$351c80a0$678154d2@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: References: Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark - Return to Sanity Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:32:09 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2918 Hugh I agree that by not stating that your broadcasters are 'BIodynamic' lacks clarity - however it is also a denial by not stating what they are. I used to get many requests for class visits to our business because A. we were successful and B. It was a woman running it. Immediately I realized that although I attributed our success to observing metaphysical laws, I wasn't acknowledging this publicly (therefore in denial) I came 'out of the closet' so to speak. My integrity is intact - however the class visits stopped! Regards Gwenda Robb From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 18:07:36 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05617 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:07:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17290; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:01:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA16900 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:57:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-30.s30.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.30] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 125zRK-0003Os-00; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:02:05 -0500 Message-ID: <3873CD7B.3423889D@erols.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 18:02:19 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: They taught us how to read but didn't give us the rightpoets WAS Re: BD Now! and the BDA References: <3873716A.95E75B70@erols.com> <38738DDF.D9357BFC@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2919 Well, Eldridge and Baraka - he'd slice yr balls if you called him LeRoi any more - write about the plight of the underclass - black in specific - and are (were in the case of Cleaver) creating the manifesto of a revolution (*the* revolution?). Not only are they addressing the plight of the people, they're doing it RIGHT NOW (well, okay - Cleaver didn't do much once he became a Muslim). Literary style be damned - and, as an English major, I certainly have read enough Walt and WB to know they're pretty doggone good. But they're history, finis, kaput, done, over, outtahere. The other writers aren't. These men and women of color would do more to liven up the university scene than any ol' pale-faced corpse. Also check out Etheridge Knight. Perhaps the best of the best - R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 18:31:44 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06386 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:31:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19489; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:25:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from alley.gator.net (root@alley.gator.net [199.78.176.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19373 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:24:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from gxstr (PP048.gator.net [199.78.178.48]) by alley.gator.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA03913 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:27:36 -0500 Message-ID: <009f01bf57d5$0bd32220$30b24ec7@gxstr> From: "karen & ed sherwood" To: Subject: Re: first post Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:31:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009A_01BF57AB.2202DBA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2920 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009A_01BF57AB.2202DBA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable michael and manfred, =20 thanks for the responses. am excited about the opportunity for knowledge = that this list might bring me. your posts are encouraging. =20 manfred, i would love to attend that conference in canada but my wife is = due with our first child at the end of the month so i will not be able = to attend. thanks for the offer of taping but i do not even own the = property for the orchards yet. please see following post. =20 ed =20 -----Original Message----- From: manfred palmer To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 6:19 PM Subject: Re: first post =20 =20 Hi Karen and Ed:=20 =20 The first thing that occurred to me in your orchard query was that = we have invited Hugh Williams to present on this subject at our BD day, = Sun.,Jan.30, 2000, as a separate part of the annual Guelph Organic = Conference in Guelph, Ontario, Canada. [This is a weekend occasion]. I don't know where you live, or if you would attend, but if not, I = would make the effort on your behalf to procure a tape of Hugh's = presentation if that is possible. Meanwhile, i'm sure there are others on this list who would advise = on preseason steps which you could make or prepare for.=20 One relevant thing which I recall from a BD mentor was: To prune off = the " cancerous growths" on any branches and , after cutting spade slits = into the ground around the outer drip line of the tree, insert the = growth specimens into those slits, pour water over them, and tamp the = slits closed again. Alledgedly, the growths contain and emit the "medicinal antidote" = whose deficiency the tree is signalling above ground.=20 Further to this, there is some question about whether to generally = prune at all, or if so, in a distinctly different manner. About this, i = have been seeking answers myself over time.=20 Please, anyone else on the list comment/verify on this, as i have no = firsthand longterm experience of this.... only my plum tree which was = prolific the following year. However, i don't regard that as = causal/conclusive of the remedy.=20 Naturally, anything done should be done in the appropriate times as = indicated by the planting calendars available : Stella Natura;and Maria = Thun's "Working with the Stars" , and the excellent synopsese of Hugh = Courtney available on Allen Balliet's site , BDNOW. =20 Sincerely, manfred palmer=20 -----Original Message----- From: karen & ed sherwood To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 5:26 PM Subject: first post =20 =20 All, =20 Having recently been exposed to the existence of biodynamics I = was excited about learning more. Books and websites has helped, but I = was very glad to learn of this listserve, in order to find out more = about the practical applications of BD. Having only been on this list = for a week it seems a bit disconcerting this talk of trademarks, = lawyers, suits, threats etc. I guess it was too much to expect this list = to be much different than others I am a member of..... =20 I do believe that BD is an important part of the future of man = on the earth. I also agree that this trademark debate is important, the = future of BD will be effected by this skirmish. Although I may have come = into this midstream I feel it would be good to get the views of demeter = and the bda on this matter. It is important to keep BD accesibile and = available for the masses (thats the goal right?). It also is important = the make sure that BD standards are stringent enough to make a = difference. I am new to BD but is demeter the only ones to certify BD? = What is the position of the bda on the trademark issue? What problem = would bda and demeter have with 'bd preps' and 'bd' being a part of the = public domain. (who has trademarked 'organic' or 'organically = certified'?) Just questions from a neophyte. =20 Listserves are an interesting forum. They usually are started = with one thing in mind but invariably evolve into something (more or = less depending on your view) different. They are a reflection of the = people who post, the good, the bad, the ugly etc.. As long as the put = delete keys on keyboards this should be no problem.. =20 As I am not fond of very long posts so I will end now, but I = would like to start another thread: =20 =20 I am in the process of purchasing a home and 25 acres, to plant = a fruit orchard and grow food(mainly for my own consumption). I have = just been exposed to BD and would like to know what I should do, what I = should read next, who I should contact. You see the word about BD is = getting out there, people like myself are finding out about it. (More on = the spiritual vs agriculture later.) =20 thanks for your indulgence =20 ed sherwood (neophyte) =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_009A_01BF57AB.2202DBA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
michael and manfred,
 
thanks for the responses. am excited = about the=20 opportunity for knowledge that this list might bring me. your posts are=20 encouraging.
 
manfred, i would love to attend that = conference=20 in canada but my wife is due with our first child at the end of the = month so i=20 will not be able to attend. thanks for the offer of taping but i do not = even own=20 the property for the orchards yet.
 
please see following = post.
 
ed
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 manfred palmer <villager@netrover.com>
To:=20 bdnow@envirolink.org = <bdnow@envirolink.org>
D= ate:=20 Tuesday, January 04, 2000 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: first=20 post

Hi Karen and Ed:
 
The first thing that occurred to me in your orchard query was = that we=20 have invited Hugh Williams to present on this subject at our BD = day, =20 Sun.,Jan.30, 2000, as a separate part of the annual Guelph Organic=20 Conference in Guelph, Ontario, Canada. [This is a weekend = occasion].
I don't know where you live, or if you would attend, but if = not, I=20 would make the effort on your behalf to procure a tape of Hugh's=20 presentation if that is possible.
Meanwhile, i'm sure there are others on this list who would = advise on=20 preseason steps which you could make or prepare for. 
One relevant thing which I recall from a BD mentor was: To = prune off=20 the " cancerous growths" on any branches and , after = cutting spade=20 slits into the ground around the outer drip line of the tree, insert = the=20 growth specimens into those slits, pour water over them, and tamp = the slits=20 closed again.
Alledgedly, the growths contain and emit the "medicinal=20 antidote" whose deficiency the tree is signalling above=20 ground. 
Further to this, there is some question about whether to = generally=20 prune at all, or if so, in a distinctly different manner. About = this, i have=20 been seeking answers myself over time. 
Please, anyone else on the list comment/verify on this, as i = have no=20 firsthand longterm experience of this.... only my plum tree which = was=20 prolific the following year. However, i don't regard that as=20 causal/conclusive of the remedy. 
Naturally, anything done should be done in the appropriate = times as=20 indicated by the planting calendars available : Stella Natura;and = Maria=20 Thun's "Working with the Stars" , and the excellent = synopsese of=20 Hugh Courtney available on Allen Balliet's site , BDNOW.
 
Sincerely, manfred palmer 
-----Original=20 Message-----
From: karen & ed sherwood <sherwood@gator.net>
To:=20 bdnow@envirolink.org=20 <bdnow@envirolink.org>
D= ate:=20 Tuesday, January 04, 2000 5:26 PM
Subject: first=20 post

All,
 
Having recently been exposed = to the=20 existence of biodynamics I was excited about learning more. = Books and=20 websites has helped, but I was very glad to learn of this = listserve, in=20 order to find out more about the practical applications of BD. = Having=20 only been on this list for a week it seems a bit disconcerting = this talk=20 of trademarks, lawyers, suits, threats etc. I guess it was too = much to=20 expect this list to be much different than others I am a member=20 of.....
 
I do believe that BD is an = important=20 part of the future of man on the earth. I also agree that this = trademark=20 debate is important, the future of BD will be effected by this = skirmish.=20 Although I may have come into this midstream I feel it would be = good to=20 get the views of demeter and the bda on this matter. It is = important to=20 keep BD accesibile and available for the masses (thats the goal = right?).=20 It also is important the make sure that BD standards are = stringent=20 enough to make a difference. I am new to BD but is demeter the = only ones=20 to certify BD? What is the position of the bda on the trademark = issue?=20 What problem would bda and demeter have with 'bd preps' and 'bd' = being a=20 part of the public domain. (who has trademarked 'organic' or=20 'organically certified'?)
Just questions from a=20 neophyte.
 
Listserves are an = interesting forum.=20 They usually are started with one thing in mind but invariably = evolve=20 into something (more or less depending on your view) different. = They are=20 a reflection of the people who post, the good, the bad, the ugly = etc..=20 As long as the put delete keys on keyboards this should be no=20 problem..
 
As I am not fond of very = long posts so I=20 will end now, but I would like to start another = thread:
 
 
I am in the process of = purchasing a home=20 and 25 acres, to plant a fruit orchard and grow food(mainly for = my own=20 consumption). I have just been exposed to BD and would like to = know what=20 I should do, what I should read next, who I should contact. You = see the=20 word about BD is getting out there, people like myself are = finding out=20 about it. (More on the spiritual vs agriculture = later.)
 
thanks for your = indulgence
 
ed sherwood = (neophyte)
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_009A_01BF57AB.2202DBA0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 18:31:43 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06381 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:31:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19447; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:25:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from acc.haverford.edu (acc.haverford.edu [165.82.1.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19218 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:22:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [165.82.19.116] (s116.magill.haverford.edu [165.82.19.116]) by acc.haverford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14478 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:22:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38737884.BBC00AFE@LightExpression.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:26:47 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Bruce Bumbarger Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2921 Wayne: Since no one else has popped up, here goes. Heinz's book is titled Biodynamic Greenhouse Management. It can be yours for somewhere around eight bucks (on sale) by calling the BDA at (888)516-7797 or e-mailing In the interest of becoming "less SELF-SERVING and more SERVICE oriented" I should point out that you can also go to the BDNOW website and order it from Amazon.com with the result that a payment will be made to BDNOW to help support the list. You can also order it from JPI; go to http://igg.com/bdnow/jpi/books.html for details.You might also want to check http://www.biodynamics.com/books.html; you'll find a pretty complete list books that are available from the BDA. The world is at your fingertips. Good luck. Bruce >please read on..... > >Allan Balliett wrote: > >> We settled on probably >> the best name offered: Heinz Grotzke. Heinz is the author of the >> superb biodynamic greenhouse book, > >OK -- more good news....... So, what's the name of the book and where can I >get a copy? > >I love this list -- better than a soap opera......... > >Best to all! > >Wayne >*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* > >Sharon and Wayne McEachern > >http://www.LightExpression.com > >Essences@LightExpression.com > >"A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" > >*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 18:31:59 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06397 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:31:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19527; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:25:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from alley.gator.net (root@alley.gator.net [199.78.176.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19406 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:25:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from gxstr (PP048.gator.net [199.78.178.48]) by alley.gator.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA03939 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:28:06 -0500 Message-ID: <00a201bf57d5$1dc40760$30b24ec7@gxstr> From: "karen & ed sherwood" To: Subject: Re: first post Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:32:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2922 guillermo, thanks for the suggestion i will look into that permaculutre book.. although i have been involved in growing foods 'organically' for 20years, bd has only been brought to my attention within the last two weeks (thank the wife who bought me secrets of soil). the unique combination of spiritual agriculture have intrigued me. its time for me to know about bd now (maybe i wasn't ready before now). i reside in north central florida, and will be purchasing 25 acres outside gainesville. its a beautiful piece of property with a spring fed pond, pasture for the horses, good areas for orchards and a wonderful spot for a garden. the soil is a bit sandy with a clay base. i have been growing vegetables in this area for a while and recognize that building soil is necessary (actually there is nothing like taking a fist full of crumbly, dark loam that you know would not have been there if you had not made the effort.) i've hauled alot of manure, its easier to build a few thousand square feet of soil that way, but when your talking acres..... bd appears to be the way. right now i am in information gathering stage, i will not be on the new property for a few months. the more i info i can get the better decisions i might be able to make. the bd preps sounds to me to be the way to start, but i don't own any cows, deer hunting season is just over (i do have pleanty of manure however). i guess i will quit rambling for now but look forward to a future of information. how and where do you get bd preps, and advice on their use. ed sherwood -----Original Message----- From: Guillermo Romero To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 12:49 AM Subject: Re: first post > >Dear Ed: > >Can you be a bit more specific with your questions. I would like tooffer my humble help, but would like to know exactly what do you need and where are you at. > >If you need designing criteria for your new lot, I guess you can get some insights from BD, but your best option IMO would be permaculture, specifically, Bill Mollison's "Permaculture Design Handbook". > >Let us know, I am sure you'll find good pointers here. > >Regards > > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 19:04:21 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07075 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:04:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA22222; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:54:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from acc.haverford.edu (acc.haverford.edu [165.82.1.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21957 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:52:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [165.82.19.116] (s116.magill.haverford.edu [165.82.19.116]) by acc.haverford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16378 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:52:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:56:34 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Bruce Bumbarger Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2923 Allan: I believe I pointed out a few months back when you asked the same question that there is a link to both the BDNOW! site and a link to subscribe to the BDNOW! list on the BDA site. As far as mention of the list in the magazine, it actually has figured in a few articles, complete with subscription details, over the time I've been managing editor. As far as the list on the inside front cover, it's always seemed to be pretty much a listing of regional chapters of the BDA plus particulars on the Pfeiffer Center, Demeter, Michael Fields Institute and JPI. No real policy I know of on who or what gets listed; seems organizational, with emphasis on groups with organizational ties to the BDA. I'll check into it. Bruce >The otherside of this is that there appears to be an effort by the >biodynamic mainstream to 'ignore' the community that has formed >through this listserve. I see no mention of BD Now! in BIODYNAMICS! >(I believe there is a link on their web page. Comfirmation?) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 19:20:01 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07246 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:20:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24091; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:13:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA23902 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:11:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.186.alltel.net [166.102.66.186]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA23628 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:16:30 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <008501bf582c$f155ca80$678154d2@default> References: <001901bf561f$8d845c60$408ebdc6@Sta ff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:23:11 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Trip to Australia Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2924 >Hugh > >Tell us about your trip to Australia - EVERYTHING? > >Regards >Gwenda Haven't gone yet. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 19:24:13 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07310 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:24:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24461; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:18:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24274 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:16:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.186.alltel.net [166.102.66.186]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA02396 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:20:53 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000105.162953.4982.1.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:27:33 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2925 >Allan (his knickers all aknotted) wrote: > >(And yet they tout the rather Ahramanic ATTRA BD >>publication, so one is very perplexed as to what their criteria is >>for inclusion.) > > > Allan, I grok that you were attempting to slam everyone in one >expedient post, but do you really want to relegate the good hardworking, >underpaid people at ATTRA to your enemies list? Its hard to imagine that >you really mean to characterize their work as *evil*. Pretty strong >language--what in the samhill are you talking about, boy? > >Yours in puzzlement, >Deborah Byron > Yeah, Allan, I really feel left out myself. All you gave me was "fluffy kitten" and "farmer cum politician." Couldn't you have remembered or created something a little more startling or notorious? I'm wondering what I did to offend you now. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 20:07:25 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07816 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:07:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA28719; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:01:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA28457 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:58:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-67.192.alltel.net [166.102.67.192]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id TAA27402 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:02:58 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <98.985da6a2.25a5224c@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:09:38 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Good news Guillermo Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2926 >In a message dated 00-01-04 21:58:57 EST, Hugh wrote: > ><< my biodynamic fiend > broadcasters >> > >Question: are those the biody manics? >Christine Some kind of Freudian slip I'd say, Christine. Shucks! Several times there I didn't get to bed till dawn and only slept 10 or 12 hours in four days. Maybe it WAS biody manics. Being a "monist" who imagines spirit and matter are one, I must be monopolar. I haven't seen what context I did this in. I'm curious. You should see some of the typos I catch--or maybe you shouldn't see them. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 21:00:58 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08570 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:00:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04930; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:54:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04071 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:50:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.159.alltel.net [166.102.66.159]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id TAA13060 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:55:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00b601bf5833$351c80a0$678154d2@default> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:46:53 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Biodynamic Trademark - Return to Sanity Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2927 >Hugh >I agree that by not stating that your broadcasters are 'BIodynamic' lacks >clarity - however it is also a denial by not stating what they are. Gwenda, I'm not too clear on what you mean here. However, I believe I have been invited to write an article for BIODYNAMICS on biodynamic field broadcasting. I hope to get a little sleep tonight and start on it in the morning. Biodynamic field broadcasters are resonant devices that "broadcast" patterns for the organizational energies to organize themselves into. You can imagine this as fractal patterns arising from the preps. Tuning the potencies of each prep, as well as the package of preps as a whole, to the needs of the land is a high art. And consider this. There are sunspots, cosmic ray bursts and all sorts of cosmic energy phenomena that maybe you don't see, but they are there. Ideally people should be adept at changing the preps in the BD field broadcaster to address changing conditions. But in practice for the present hardly anyone would know what to do. Basically it takes a high order of sensitivity and perception. I'm sure Greg could, and that's no male bovine. Lorraine might have to be more of an organized, on-the-spot doer to get it done, but she's perceptive enough. I'm sure I can, but to be consistently accurate I might have to withdraw from some of my activities, change my lifestyle and meditate more. The truth is that energy foillows thought, so if you want your biodynamic field broadcaster to REALLY work REALLY powerfully you must link your thoughts to it. Then, (to refer to a Steiner quote on page 30 in my book) one "will be involved with his WILL in the objective FEELING of the world." Ah, well. I'll get the article written. If it is for real that Bruce is going to print this article, I can hardly wait to write it. It's bound to be a piece of cake after some of the things I wrote this past week--a book no less. I've always been serious as a multiple coronary--ever since I heard of biodynamics--about Steiner's first priority of applying the benefits of our preparations to the widest possible areas of the earth. How to do that? Please, let's face this in a practical way. Why should this be impossible? Admittedly I had to be innovative in finding a way to get it done, but I can see light at the end of the tunnel. No doubt I've got to get a brochure up on the web page too. Hugh > I used >to get many requests for class visits to our business because A. we were >successful and B. It was a woman running it. Immediately I realized that >although I attributed our success to observing metaphysical laws, I wasn't >acknowledging this publicly (therefore in denial) I came 'out of the closet' >so to speak. My integrity is intact - however the class visits stopped! >Regards >Gwenda Robb From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 21:14:52 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08715 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:14:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA07711; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:08:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06961 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:05:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.159.alltel.net [166.102.66.159]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id UAA16783 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:09:59 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00a201bf57d5$1dc40760$30b24ec7@gxstr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:16:39 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: first post Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2928 >the bd preps sounds to me to be the way to start, but i don't own any cows, >deer hunting season is just over (i do have pleanty of manure however). > >i guess i will quit rambling for now but look forward to a future of >information. > >how and where do you get bd preps, and advice on their use. > BD Preps P. O. Box 133 Woolwine, VA 24185 540 930 2463 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 22:22:21 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA09432 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:22:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12765; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12634 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.136] (pm3mbr3-166-136.intrepid.net [209.190.166.136]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA25067 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:18:23 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000105.162953.4982.1.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: <20000105.162953.4982.1.LaQuerencia@juno.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:17:42 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2929 >Allan (his knickers all aknotted) wrote: > >(And yet they tout the rather Ahramanic ATTRA BD >>publication, so one is very perplexed as to what their criteria is >>for inclusion.) > > > Allan, I grok that you were attempting to slam everyone in one >expedient post, but do you really want to relegate the good hardworking, >underpaid people at ATTRA to your enemies list? Its hard to imagine that >you really mean to characterize their work as *evil*. Pretty strong >language--what in the samhill are you talking about, boy? > >Yours in puzzlement, >Deborah Byron What are you talking about, Deborah? I'm not talking about personality here or life circumstances, I'm talking about a little publication put out by a department of the federal government that extensively quotes the only credentialed biodyn they could find and as a result presents an imbalanced view of biodynamics--one essentially devoid of spirit, Steiner and real force. (Hence the Ahrimanic reference.) If I were 'new to the field,' from that publication I would have gained absolutely no understanding of how important JPI is to the success of American biodynamic farmers. None of this, of course, is not that is not that big of deal or outside of what should expect from ag research done in a library. My hat, as always, is off to Mr. Diver for getting this document out in the public eye at Federal expense. But, yes, this is all beside the point. What about you, Deborah? Do you think its appropriate for Demeter--especially on their web page - - to NOT refer people to BD Now!? -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 22:45:36 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA09681 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:45:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14271; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:39:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA14053 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:35:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.207] (du-148-233-78-207.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNW00MEKA3CIK@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:38:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 21:36:59 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: first post In-reply-to: <00a201bf57d5$1dc40760$30b24ec7@gxstr> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id WAA14054 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2930 >guillermo, > >thanks for the suggestion i will look into that permaculutre book.. > >although i have been involved in growing foods 'organically' for 20years, bd >has only been brought to my attention within the last two weeks (thank the >wife who bought me secrets of soil). the unique combination of spiritual >agriculture have intrigued me. its time for me to know about bd now (maybe >i wasn't ready before now). > >i reside in north central florida, and will be purchasing 25 acres outside >gainesville. its a beautiful piece of property with a spring fed pond, >pasture for the horses, good areas for orchards and a wonderful spot for a >garden. the soil is a bit sandy with a clay base. i have been growing >vegetables in this area for a while and recognize that building soil is >necessary (actually there is nothing like taking a fist full of crumbly, >dark loam that you know would not have been there if you had not made the >effort.) i've hauled alot of manure, its easier to build a few thousand >square feet of soil that way, but when your talking acres..... bd appears to >be the way. > >right now i am in information gathering stage, i will not be on the new >property for a few months. the more i info i can get the better decisions i >might be able to make. >the bd preps sounds to me to be the way to start, but i don't own any cows, >deer hunting season is just over (i do have pleanty of manure however). > >i guess i will quit rambling for now but look forward to a future of >information. > >how and where do you get bd preps, and advice on their use. > >ed sherwood Hi Ed: BD preps are made and sold by JPI (Josephine Porter Institute), if you have read Secrets of the Soil you know who this woman was. Her work has being continued by Hugh Courtney and you can reach them (JPI) at the mail address that Hugh Lovel has given you. Detailed instructions on how to store and use the preps are normally included with your order. IMO the best source of concise information on the subject of making and using BD preps is available in Hugh Lovel's book: A Biodynamic Farm and Peter Proctor's "Grasp the Nettle" Also check the JPI information on the sequential spraying dates that Hugh Courtney publishes in the BD-Now and the BDA web site. There is also a lot of info on the BD-Now archives, and obviously you can ask it again right here. I am in Mexico and order from time to time preps from JPI, mainly the compost preps since I am doing my own horn manure, silica manure and buy horsetail locally. Hope this helps and welcome Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 23:14:00 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA09974 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:13:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA15584; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:08:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA15389 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:04:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.50.58.87] (A37.reach.net [204.50.58.68]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA14244 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:10:13 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:10:13 -0500 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Re: first post Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2931 >Hi Karen and Ed: > >The first thing that occurred to me in your orchard query was that we have >invited Hugh Williams to present on this subject at our BD day, >Sun.,Jan.30, 2000, as a separate part of the annual Guelph Organic >Conference in Guelph, Ontario, Canada. [This is a weekend occasion]....etc Hi Manfred, Could you post a little more information on this event. I would probably try to trip out of Prince Edward County for it, but this is the first I've heard of it. Hopefully one or twoothers onthe list might be interested too. Thanks, Geoff Heinricks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 5 23:48:19 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA10420 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:48:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17564; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:41:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17371 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:38:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.207] (du-148-233-78-207.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNW006JMD0KAC@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:41:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 22:43:03 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id XAA17373 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2932 Dear Allan: Thanks for finally writing your perspective of things, I do have several comments, please read between the lines and please excuse my idiotic open mindness. >In answer to Guillermo's question: the explanation that you have been >waiting for since 1998 as to why 'BD Now!' and not 'BD-l' was >indeed written, in fact written and re-written. I passed it for >review to some of my noted colleagues here - - men who are usually >known to have calmer heads than I - - and it was pretty well decided >(and I imagine, truly, much to your liking) to just set it aside and >to step into the future rather than continue with a topic which, for >the time being, was a dead issue. What most people are not aware of >was the terrible abuse I was taking behind the scenes during that >period; I've held on to that purple bi-polar email and still retain a >strong sense that it s.b. posted to the web for everyone to share in. >I have, however, deferred to heads that are, at times, clearer than >my own. > I do not believe the conflict between Allan Balliet/BD-Now and the BDA has ever being a dead issue. I suspect there has being a low intensity war going on in the last two plus years. For instance, you claim to have been abused and neglected by the BDA and in return you sometimes take opportunities to attack them publicly without (IMO) a true motive for doing it. I recommend you post your explanation of things and that someone asks the BDA/Steve Moore for their own version of things. You have been complaining about them and have hinted the existence of a complot against you and the list. Please make it public and wide open, instead of a veiled accusation and please given them the opportunity to explain their side of the story. I do not see it quite like that. As I have said a number of times, I believe we need strong institutions in the BD world. If the administrators at one point in time, have done wrong, we should expose them and work toward correcting and evolving things. It serves no one to destroy institutions and a legacy of 75 years of work and experience because some individuals are or were misbehaving. If you think the BDA is faulty to the point of hopelessness, what are the options you are suggesting? the ABA ? I do not think it would be a clever move. Well probably only as a counter balance. (sorry Greg and Hugh). We should better try to change and make better what I believe is a respectable institution representing a truly remarkable world movement. In the situation where I operate BD is in its most orthodox form a revolutionary pathway. Do we really need a new BD?, a revolution within BD? I do believe we have to expand it and make it less esoteric and more exotheric, but making a revolution within a revolutionary movement, IMO is just nonsense and a waste of time. I suggest we better employ our energies in making this methodology work for the rest of the world who is unaware even of its existence and stop wearing such a fragile chip on the shoulder. >But, a more straight forward answer: at NO TIME has the BDA been >asked to leave this list. At NO TIME has the BDA been denied access >to this list. It is a well known, I assume, that Bruce B, managing >editor of BIODYNAMICS, reads this list. Unfortunately, to date, his >participation has been somewhat limited. One can only continue to >hope that he will evolve with the membership of this listserve and >become less SELF-SERVING and more SERVICE oriented. Maybe one day >soon, for example, we'll see intern announcements posted to BD Now! >and beyond as they are received on his desk and won't have to buy a >magazine or make a trip to the association's web page to see them as >though somehow the needs of biodynamic farmers or biodynamic students >are proprietary. What a sign of growth and evolution that would be! I commend you because you have never have impeded anyone, regardless of your personal feelings or interests, from participating here if it is done in a vaguely respectful way. But let me tell you that, in a way and IMO, the climate of BD-Now is hostile to the BDA. If I were to walk in their human shoes, I could easily understand why they might be choosing not to participate here or to support your efforts. For example, refer to the above paragraph re. Bruce B. >I called Chuck Beedy (Executive Director of the BDA, for you newbies) >yesterday and spoke with him at some length about this copyright >issue. While I've come to believe that my beloved Guillermo is >open-minded to the point of brown-eyed idiocy (I MEAN, HOW COULD >ANYONE WHO IS ABLE TO HOLD TWO CONFLICTING IDEAS IN HIS MIND AT HE >SAME TIME AND COMPARE THEM FOR VALUE, QUOTE EINSTEIN (OR HIS >MARYILYN MONROE PR MAN, FOR THAT MATTER), THE ONE HUMAN MORE >DESPICABLE THAN MONSANTO AND PROBABLY MORE EVIL THAN HITLER, ON >SOCIOLOGICAL MATTERS?), I was curious as to what BOTH SIDES of the >story are. What I found out is essentially summed up by my questions >to Hugh on the list yesterday and his answers to them. To whit: Greg >swatted the hive and the bees are doing exactly what is expected of >them. My impression is that they are not overreacting and none of the >innocent on-lookers are about to be stung. I like to judge things with a perspective and within a historical context. In that way and obviously IMO, Einstein did what he had to do and in the process made important contributions for the benefit of all. He was human and probably made some mistakes, but again his merits are more than his faults. The same is true IMO for the BDA. It is really easy to find faults in everything and to try to profit from it, but IMO that is manipulative and not conductive to anything good. > >It is important to note that Greg Willis subscribed to BD Now! this >past Saturday and has, through this whole tempest, apparently chosen >to remain lurking, playing monkey to Hugh's fluffy pawed kitten. >Sorry, Greg, my impression from yesterday's conversation with Chuck >is that your nuts - - chestnuts or otherwise - - are still well in >the fire. > >I also discussed with Greg speaking at my conference this past >October 1. Gret wanted over $2000 in speaking fees and exhorbitant >expenses. Compare this to true genius Al Kapuler who came for free, >rode in air coach and BOUGHT A TICKET FOR HIS WIFE TO JOIN HIM and >created the most unanticipated spiritual excitement that has been >seen on the east coast since Hendrix played Woodstock. For my money: >biodynamic education and BIG FEES don't mix...even if you do serve >tea. For me, anyone who acts like a madman repeatedly, tries to >destroy this listserve with pathetically fake lawsuit threats (Do I >worry? No, Envirolink will defend my freedom of speech..to the bone), >calls little old ladies 'Nazi,' and is clearly in biodynamics 'for >the money,' need not be listened to very seriously when he talks >about a prep RS never discussed and JPI does not offer. Now I heard >that the 'trademarked' terms on his website are actually NOT legally >trademarked. By their fruits you shall know them. Urgh! > >I, too, long for even more biodynamic horticultural discussion on >this list. It's tough turning to the BDA people for this sort of >support, however, since, as you may have noticed, many do not have >phones, fewer have computers, and even fewer are willing to use >email. Chuck and I discussed several names of BD growers who may be >appropriate to ask to be involved on BD Now! We settled on probably >the best name offered: Heinz Grotzke. Heinz is the author of the >superb biodynamic greenhouse book, a BDA boardmember off and on since >Pfeiffer directed the BDA (!), a very experienced biodynamic >herbalist, and currently editor of BIODYNAMICS. Heinz is not >subscribed to BD Now! currently, but Chuck promised to ask him to >join. He is not coming here to discuss politics; he is coming here to >discuss growing food biodynamically. I hope everyone extends the >highest form of respect for him because he is one of the treasures of >this movement. > >The otherside of this is that there appears to be an effort by the >biodynamic mainstream to 'ignore' the community that has formed >through this listserve. I see no mention of BD Now! in BIODYNAMICS! >(I believe there is a link on their web page. Comfirmation?) No >mention of BD Now! in the Demeter resource listings nor on their >webpage. (And yet they tout the rather Ahramanic ATTRA BD >publication, so one is very perplexed as to what their criteria is >for inclusion.) My current feeling is that if the BDA is going to be >a North American inclusive biodynamic organization, then BD Now! >should have the status of any other initiative and be listed >accordingly. I would hope that anyone who concurs with this statement >would call the BDA or email them at biodynamic@aol.com . They do have >the power to pull things together. To push from this end is like the >tail trying to push the dog. > >Regardless, here it's BIODYNAMICS NOW!, not later and definitely not >never! This list exists, grows and thrives because other people = = >for whatever reason - - are NOT EFFECTIVELY DOING THE JOB of >promoting biodynamics and supporting the good people who practicing >biodynamics. It's are place to not only support each other but to >continually push the people who wear the mantels - - and get the pay >checks! - - to do everything they can to create markets for >biodynamic food and to provide technical and heart-support for those >of us in the fields (which is support for those of you at the tables). > >So, there is an opening here. If the BDA can accept that this on-line >community is performing a much needed function for biodynamic farmers >and gardeners around the world and work with us rather than resent us >for doing their job .. and if we can work within progressive >biodynamics without reacting to this recurring fear (which, believe >me, is not irrational - I have the email to prove it!) that we are >about to be eaten by something larger, better funded, and more >orthodox, there's reason to believe we've entered a new octave and >the world's about to become a better place for children of all >species. > >And while you're calling the BDA or writing them about letting their >constituency know about this biodynamic discussion community, put in >a good word for biodynamics in Mexico, too, will you? > >To clarify: I'm confident that we can work more closely with the BDA soon. > >Sincerely and in hope for the Future, > I have asked this to you before and will asked it again here: I do not understand why you are so interested in being recognize by the BDA and included in their official everything; you want to have links to BD-Now, you want your CSA to be listed in their web pages, you want your call for internships to be included, you want to distribute their info in BD-Now, etc, etc. But you seem to be rather angry with them and extremely critical of their actions, why ? If you think you are doing and can do a better job, why do you want their support. Reach within and I suspect you will find that my question has a very emotional and personal answer. I also feel that there is an opportunity to integrate BD-Now and the BDAA again, but that will require a lot of openness, forgiveness, respect for one another, and willingness to collaborate. We will get no where with demands and insults. I hope for the good of all you can make it posible. Peace Dear Friend Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 03:10:44 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA11790 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:10:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA26580; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:03:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail12.wlv.netzero.net (mail12.wlv.netzero.net [209.247.163.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA20251 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 00:06:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 5660 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jan 2000 05:11:38 -0000 Received: from pppa45-resalechattanooga1-2r7227.saturn.bbn.com (HELO myputer) (4.54.198.170) by mail12.wlv.netzero.net with SMTP; 6 Jan 2000 05:11:38 -0000 Message-ID: <000301bf5804$86b6bea0$aac63604@myputer> From: "captaindot" To: References: Subject: Re: Field Broadcasters Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 00:08:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2933 Dear list. Could someone be kind enough to explain the difference between a "cosmic pipe" and a "biodynamic field broadcaster"? Are the terms interchangeable? Do the two devices have separate patents? Dazed and confused, John P. Gallerie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hugh Lovel" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 3:31 PM Subject: Re: Field Broadcasters > >Hugh Lovel wrote: > > > >> Prior to this I have kept my mouth shut about my biodynamic field > >> broadcasters and just called them field broadcasters. This has been > >> worrying me for quite some time, because the real truth is they are > >> biodynamic field broadcasters > > > >So Hugh -- only trying to state the obvious -- perhaps you could trademark > >"Bio-Dynamic Field Broadcasters" -- or get permission from whomever (in fact) > >holds the BD trademark. Seems like a reasonable request in promotion and best > >interest of all BD concepts -- providing everyone is working from integrity in > >this matter. Integrity is in fact a spiritual concept which humanity is > >in need > >of healing and is in fact healing. > > > >Wayne > >*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* > > > >Sharon and Wayne McEachern > > > > > Dear Wayne, > > Who knows if everyone is working with integrity in this matter? > > I wouldn't want to make too many assumptions, would you? > > I'm basically only concerned with seeing that I'm part of the filing > process with Greg and Courtney so I can be sure that the term BD preps is > trademarked for the public domain, AND that Demeter makes out an affadavit > to the effect they are conveying THEIR trademark of biodynamic to the > public domain. Both parts are key interests of mine. > > Other than that I consider this whole business rather foolish. > > I'm sure there will end up being all kinds of people making biodynamic > field broadcasters, including, hopefully, at least a handful who really > know what they are doing. So what? From my point of view I HOPE so. If I > really wanted to capitalize on such a thing I'd set up at least three > stockholder corporations competing with each other and own a hefty chunk of > stock in all three. It would be far more profitable than to have one > company. > > Coke wouldn't be nearly so ubiquitous without Pepsi, you know? There's > probably cokes in the Gobi Desert, to say nothing of the polar stations, by > now for crying out loud. > > What do I really care if I can get the result that the benefits of our > preparations are applied to the widest possible areas over the entire > earth? So MANY people lose sight of the real objectives in the light of > personal ambition. > > THAT (and a few similar things) was the REAL message I tried to get out > there as a result of all this brou-ha-ha Did anyone get that? Do I hear any > sign that anyone learned something from all this? > > Warm regards, > Hugh Lovel > > __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 03:10:51 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA11805 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA26717; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:04:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA21400 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 00:39:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.136] (pm3mbr1-166-53.intrepid.net [209.190.166.53]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA16758 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 00:44:03 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 00:47:06 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2934 Thanks for being such a gentleman, Bruce. How about humoring me and finding some space in Biodynamics to plug BD Now! and its subscription information each issue? I think we would all benefit by having an even larger on-line biodynamic community. THANKS AGAIN -Allan >Allan: >I believe I pointed out a few months back when you asked the same question >that there is a link to both the BDNOW! site and a link to subscribe to the >BDNOW! list on the BDA site. As far as mention of the list in the magazine, >it actually has figured in a few articles, complete with subscription >details, over the time I've been managing editor. As far as the list on the >inside front cover, it's always seemed to be pretty much a listing of >regional chapters of the BDA plus particulars on the Pfeiffer Center, >Demeter, Michael Fields Institute and JPI. No real policy I know of on who >or what gets listed; seems organizational, with emphasis on groups with >organizational ties to the BDA. I'll check into it. >Bruce > >The otherside of this is that there appears to be an effort by the >>biodynamic mainstream to 'ignore' the community that has formed >>through this listserve. I see no mention of BD Now! in BIODYNAMICS! >>(I believe there is a link on their web page. Comfirmation?) -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 03:10:46 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA11791 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:10:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA26645; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:03:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA21229 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 00:33:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.136] (pm3mbr1-166-53.intrepid.net [209.190.166.53]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA16023 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 00:37:53 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 00:39:10 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2935 >I like to judge things with a perspective and within a historical >context. In that way and obviously IMO, Einstein did what he had to >do and in the process made important contributions for the benefit >of all. He was human and probably made some mistakes, but again his >merits are more than his faults. The same is true IMO for the BDA. > >It is really easy to find faults in everything and to try to profit >from it, but IMO that is manipulative and not conductive to anything >good. Really, tell me again, Guillermo: what was the contribution of Einstein to the world we biodyns want to inhabit. I'm sorry, I can't figure it out. It must be obvious, please point it out to me. A spoke at length with a permaculturist this pm. One thing she jocularly pointed out was the number of biodynamic farmers who bragged about their farm being a self-contained organism while at the same it was being illuminated by power piped in for miles from nuke reactors. I think she had a good point: in our methodology we've overlooked an awful lot. It's your generous assumption of unknown Good that befuddles me, Guillermo. Your idealistic suggestions are not workable in this situation and I'll stick with the counsel I have taken. In addition, I felt that my conversation with Chuck was very productive yesterday and I feel right now that your suggestions in this particular situation are rather retro. In regards to the comments to Bruce, I believe that he took them much better than you did. Look at what I said: information about farmers that need interns benefits many (in fact, the whole world), information about interns looking for farms does the same. If you're in a position of receiving that information for bi-monthly publication, and you're already reading BD Now! and you've got to type the stuff anyway, why not perform the service of dumping it as often as possible into BD Now! so that farms may find interns and interns may find farms even sooner? Were my comments born of hostility to the BDA or of a personal bias towards 'from each according to his ability to each according to his need'? I think, perhaps, too much is read into my willingness to speak up. Again: it's not just a service to a farmer to have the BDA announce his BD CSA, it is a service to every person who may be looking for a CSA in that area. These are SERVICE-oriented processes and many suffer when they become propritary - - or when stewardship claimed is neglected. One wonders why you would criticize the relationship of your intimate comrades with an organization that for many reasons you know so little about. Speaking to Chuck yesterday, I recalled that for years everyone told me that he was a Canadian from Emerson College.(Which, however, is not true.) So, this is probably the explanation: You Canadian bureaucrats intuitively stick together. :-) -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 03:33:35 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA12096 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:33:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA28214; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:27:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA28094 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:22:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from Staff.santarosa.edu - 63.23.34.93 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 00:27:09 -0800 Message-ID: <01fc01bf5820$e2879f80$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> From: "agdoc" To: Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 00:34:43 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2936 Alan writes: ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 04:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA29514; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 04:09:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from fep9.mail.ozemail.net (fep9.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.103]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA29407 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 04:06:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (slmlb28p56.ozemail.com.au [210.84.135.248]) by fep9.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA18931 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:10:34 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <000d01bf588a$7301eb60$f88754d2@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: References: <001901bf561f$8d845c60$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Subject: Re: Trip to Australia Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:10:10 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2937 > >Hugh > > > >Tell us about your trip to Australia - EVERYTHING? > > > >Regards > >Gwenda > > Haven't gone yet. > > Hugh Here's your chance to network - I'm from Australia that's why I was curious. Gwenda :-) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 07:16:40 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA13182 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 07:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA07201; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 07:10:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07060 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 07:07:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-67.164.alltel.net [166.102.67.164]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id GAA29913 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 06:11:58 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000301bf5804$86b6bea0$aac63604@myputer> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 07:18:40 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Field Broadcasters Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2938 >Dear list. > >Could someone be kind enough to explain the difference between a "cosmic >pipe" and a "biodynamic field broadcaster"? Are the terms interchangeable? >Do the two devices have separate patents? > >Dazed and confused, >John P. Gallerie > Hello John, The biodynamic field broadcaster is a further development along the lines of Galen Hieronymus' original "cosmic pipe." There have been no patents. Hugh > >> >Hugh Lovel wrote: >> > >> >> Prior to this I have kept my mouth shut about my biodynamic field >> >> broadcasters and just called them field broadcasters. This has been >> >> worrying me for quite some time, because the real truth is they are >> >> biodynamic field broadcasters >> > >> >So Hugh -- only trying to state the obvious -- perhaps you could >trademark >> >"Bio-Dynamic Field Broadcasters" -- or get permission from whomever (in >fact) >> >holds the BD trademark. Seems like a reasonable request in promotion and >best >> >interest of all BD concepts -- providing everyone is working from >integrity in >> >this matter. Integrity is in fact a spiritual concept which humanity is >> >in need >> >of healing and is in fact healing. >> > >> >Wayne >> >*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* >> > >> >Sharon and Wayne McEachern >> >> >> >> >> Dear Wayne, >> >> Who knows if everyone is working with integrity in this matter? >> >> I wouldn't want to make too many assumptions, would you? >> >> I'm basically only concerned with seeing that I'm part of the filing >> process with Greg and Courtney so I can be sure that the term BD preps is >> trademarked for the public domain, AND that Demeter makes out an affadavit >> to the effect they are conveying THEIR trademark of biodynamic to the >> public domain. Both parts are key interests of mine. >> >> Other than that I consider this whole business rather foolish. >> >> I'm sure there will end up being all kinds of people making biodynamic >> field broadcasters, including, hopefully, at least a handful who really >> know what they are doing. So what? From my point of view I HOPE so. If I >> really wanted to capitalize on such a thing I'd set up at least three >> stockholder corporations competing with each other and own a hefty chunk >of >> stock in all three. It would be far more profitable than to have one >> company. >> >> Coke wouldn't be nearly so ubiquitous without Pepsi, you know? There's >> probably cokes in the Gobi Desert, to say nothing of the polar stations, >by >> now for crying out loud. >> >> What do I really care if I can get the result that the benefits of our >> preparations are applied to the widest possible areas over the entire >> earth? So MANY people lose sight of the real objectives in the light of >> personal ambition. >> >> THAT (and a few similar things) was the REAL message I tried to get out >> there as a result of all this brou-ha-ha Did anyone get that? Do I hear >any >> sign that anyone learned something from all this? >> >> Warm regards, >> Hugh Lovel >> >> > >__________________________________________ >NetZero - Defenders of the Free World >Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at >http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 07:25:07 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA13240 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 07:25:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA07547; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 07:19:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07381 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 07:15:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-67.164.alltel.net [166.102.67.164]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id GAA07062 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 06:19:55 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000d01bf588a$7301eb60$f88754d2@default> References: <001901bf561f$8d845c60$408ebdc6@Sta ff.santarosa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 07:26:38 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Trip to Australia Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2939 >> >Hugh >> > >> >Tell us about your trip to Australia - EVERYTHING? >> > >> >Regards >> >Gwenda >> >> Haven't gone yet. >> >> Hugh > >Here's your chance to network - I'm from Australia that's why I was curious. > >Gwenda :-) I was invited by Cheryl Kemp. She asked could I spend as much as three weeks. I said I would make the time. She indicated it would be a good idea to pack in as many different events in the schedule as possible, so I believe what you should do is contact her and tell as many others as you think are interested to contact her. If you don't have her e-mail address it is: bio@midcoast.com.au Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 08:37:24 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA13786 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:37:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11923; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:31:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA11619 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:27:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha07s054.d.shentel.net [204.111.54.54]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA26023 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:35:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38749917.25FF016B@LightExpression.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 08:31:03 -0500 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Einstein References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2940 Allan Balliett wrote: > > Really, tell me again, Guillermo: what was the contribution of > Einstein to the world we biodyns want to inhabit. I'm sorry, I can't > figure it out. It must be obvious, please point it out to me. > Allan, personally, I have a tremendous appreciation for the work of Einstein. At my roots, I am anti-nuc -- this is dangerous stuff for our fragile environment. But, if we believe that Divinity exists -- and that perhaps everything happens for a reason -- then the research that was done and the events which transpired as a result of Einstein's work in the nuc area were to be a part of our evolution. I admire Einstein for his tremendous credentials (admired by most of the world) -- which perhaps one day will be also associated with his knowledge about that which he has written on metaphysical concepts. That all matter (tables, steel, -- anything which appears inanimate) is alive -- is atomic matter. Everything is energy. Most of all, I admire Einstein's philosophical self which will hopefully one day be read and perhaps understood giving credence to universal life and the spiritual nature of this special place -- Earth. When we can associate the spiritual nature of life through the credentials of a well respected "genius", there is a greater opportunity for humanity to walk through a door to enlightenment. This is yet to come. Humanity is (without question) in need of healing. Anger, lack of respect, lack of integrity, not being able to give love, not being able to accept love -- and any other ego driven aspect of humanity that is out of alignment with Divinity -- must one day come to pass. In light, Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 09:05:42 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14194 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:05:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA14220; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:59:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA13998 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:57:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.104.alltel.net [166.102.66.104]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id IAA15903 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:02:21 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:09:04 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2941 Guillermo writes: >As I have said a number of times, I believe we need strong institutions in >the BD world. If the administrators at one point in time, have done wrong, >we should expose them and work toward correcting and evolving things. It >serves no one to destroy institutions and a legacy of 75 years of work and >experience because some individuals are or were misbehaving. > >If you think the BDA is faulty to the point of hopelessness, what are the >options you are suggesting? the ABA ? I do not think it would be a clever >move. Well probably only as a counter balance. (sorry Greg and Hugh). We >should better try to change and make better what I believe is a >respectable institution representing a truly remarkable world movement. > >In the situation where I operate BD is in its most orthodox form a >revolutionary pathway. Do we really need a new BD?, a revolution within >BD? I do believe we have to expand it and make it less esoteric and more >exotheric, but making a revolution within a revolutionary movement, IMO is >just nonsense and a waste of time. I suggest we better employ our >energies in making this methodology work for the rest of the world who is >>unaware even of its existence and stop wearing such a fragile chip on the >shoulder. Dear Guillermo, I both agree and disagree here. I agree with supporting the BDA. I am myself a member and have just set to work writing an article on biodynamic field broadcasting for the journal. It will be an incredible, groundbreaking article which I expect to post to this list for editorial suggestions and comments before its final publication--though that may take a couple more days. I've offered to write a "Ask Hugh" feature for every issue. I think the journal is a bit prosaic and could use more and better writing talent--and I work for free or for advertising. I support the BDA, though as the past week or show shows, not always in every way. I do think it is a staid and conservative organization and though I'm not such a person I support the BDA and will help the BDA where I can. On the other hand, I'm even more committed to getting the ABA off the ground. It is my sort of an organization and I invite all of like mind to join. I've been asked to be on the advisory board of the ABA and Agri-Synthesis--I'm not sure of the details--and I can see I'm going to accept despite the demands this will place on my time. I see the ABA as filling a void rather than being in competition. Remember what I Told Wayne McEachern about spreading biodynamic field broadcasting to the world? Coke wouldn't do nearly so well without Pepsi. So I don't agree with the idea that forming the ABA was unnecessary. Look what has already happened and the first issue of the ABA journal isn't even off the press yet. And I get to write for both? Incredible! I love it. I'm a little surprised you don't see yet what this is going to do for biodynamics. It will finally take off, don't you see? > >>But, a more straight forward answer: at NO TIME has the BDA been >>asked to leave this list. At NO TIME has the BDA been denied access >>to this list. It is a well known, I assume, that Bruce B, managing >>editor of BIODYNAMICS, reads this list. Unfortunately, to date, his >>participation has been somewhat limited. One can only continue to >>hope that he will evolve with the membership of this listserve and >>become less SELF-SERVING and more SERVICE oriented. Maybe one day >>soon, for example, we'll see intern announcements posted to BD Now! >>and beyond as they are received on his desk and won't have to buy a >>magazine or make a trip to the association's web page to see them as >>though somehow the needs of biodynamic farmers or biodynamic students >>are proprietary. What a sign of growth and evolution that would be! > >I commend you because you have never have impeded anyone, regardless of >your personal feelings or interests, from participating here if it is done >in a vaguely respectful way. Yes! Thank heaven for that. Allan has won his spurs as a moderator in this way. >But let me tell you that, in a way and IMO, the climate of BD-Now is >hostile to the BDA. If I were to walk in their human shoes, I could >easily understand why they might be choosing not to participate here or to >support your efforts. For example, refer to the above paragraph re. Bruce >B. > Surcease of hostility in my experience can come easily enough as long as in good faith we follow my three rules of confrontations on the list. (1) non-judgmental, open-minded, intent observation. (2) Completion of cycles with acknowledgment rather than judgment. And (3) Pursuit of each point to completion. If we disengage or indulge in non-confont (Lucifer) or seek to suppress or impose control and enforce perfection (Ahriman) then we will fail to get to the crux of things on the list. I hope I'm making this really plain. > >I have asked this to you before and will asked it again here: I do not >understand why you are so interested in being recognize by the BDA and >included in their official everything; you want to have links to BD-Now, >you want your CSA to be listed in their web pages, you want >your call for >internships to be included, you want to distribute their info in BD-Now, >etc, >etc. Maybe Allan's reasons are not obvious, but I think he has a good idea. I submit he should also be given the same respect, the same links with the official journal, web page, etc. with the ABA, and if I am in an advisory position there I will advise it. >But you seem to be rather angry with them and extremely critical of their >[BDA] actions, why ? If you think you are doing and can do a better job, >why do you want their support. Reach within and I suspect you will find >that my question has a very emotional and personal >answer. > This may be, Guillermo, but thankfully it does not require anyone to pass judgment on Allan. It only matters to Allan whether or not and in what fashion his emotions may be involved. I think the fact remains that it is reasonable to want BDA support and it would be top drawer to give it to him. >I also feel that there is an opportunity to integrate BD-Now and the BDAA >again, but that will require a lot of openness, forgiveness, respect for >one another, and willingness to collaborate. We will get no where with >demands and insults. I hope for the good of all you can make it posible. > >Peace Dear Friend > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Guillermo. Of course you are right that openness, forgiveness, respect and willingness are what is required in any event. This is just my personal opinion, but I feel the BD Now is ever so much better off being separate from the BDA. I remember what it was like when Allan was hanging, twisting in the wind awaiting the whimsical decisions of the BDA board, most of which had no insight whatsoever into Allan's needs. It might be a little better and it might be a whole lot worse if BD Now were integrated into the ABA. Do you remember what I told Wayne McEachern about what I would do if I wanted to make biodynamic field broadcasting take off world wide? I said I would start at least THREE enterprises. Between the BDA and the ABA there are still only two and we need at LEAST THREE. Try out the idea that I might know what I'm talking about and give this some thought, please. Okay? Best wishes, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 12:05:09 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18202 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:05:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02187; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:57:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02065 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:56:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.242]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000106170555.EXWR21196.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 06:05:55 +1300 Message-ID: <3874C9F7.2043@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 05:59:35 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Intellectual property Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2942 Reading through the mountain of posts on this subject, I am drawn back to the discussion we had last year about biodynamic ownership and all the various pictures we were presented with of meeting this question. It appears to me that patenting and trademarks are the most 'exclusive' act that can be taken as a statement of ownership. And any organisation that performs such an act can hardly criticise others for charging for their services and endevours. The anthroposophical ethics expressed in those posting are no where to be found in this owneership reality. Funny that. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 12:22:17 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18505 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:22:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03979; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:16:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com (imo-d02.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.34]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03833 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:15:00 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.71.7109e87e (4242) for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:19:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <71.7109e87e.25a6289c@aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:19:24 EST Subject: Re: Intellectual property To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2943 In a message dated 1/6/00 12:04:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, Garuda@xtra.co.nz writes: << It appears to me that patenting and trademarks are the most 'exclusive' act that can be taken as a statement of ownership. Yes, unless they are then put into the public sector for all to have access too. And any organisation that performs such an act can hardly criticise others for charging for their services and endevours. >> Charging for a product, whether it is BD or not, is the way many make their living, Hugh L. and Woody are examples. Charging for knowledge about BD should be no different though some here seem to think that is against the "teachings". Even Hugh Courtney at JPI has started charging for his time on consulting phone calls, as is entirely appropriate IMO. The best way to get a product (BD) in worldwide use is to professionally market it showing the advantage to the customers whether they are farmers or the ultimate consumers. After all isn't that what Steiner asked "us" to do, get it in wide use to heal the earth. Dan L From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 12:27:08 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18619 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:27:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAB04446; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:21:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04190 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:18:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from garudix ([210.55.179.242]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000106172749.FAGQ21196.mta2-rme@garudix> for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 06:27:49 +1300 Message-ID: <3874CF67.5920@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 06:22:47 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson & Christy Hartlage Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda NZ ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: BD trademark Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2944 > more people out there besides Greg and myself are chilled by the thought of > Demeter having exclusive rights to use the term biodynamic. IMHO trademarks are usually very specific in there application. I can imagine the trademarking of the term biodynamic is for the labelling of goods grown biodynamically. Using the word in relation to the discussion and theorising about the agricultural practises sparked by Rudolf Steiner would not fall within this trademark. So labelling the field broadcasters at point of sale as biodynamic may not be allowed but discussing them as biodynamic devices in literature (at point of sale) would probably be outside the trademark. This is one of the limitation of trademarks, they are very specific. Like the neem issue. Neem maybe patented in the US but is it a world wide patent and if so why would the Indian governement have granted one, and I would imagine it is a patent of a specific form of the product and I believe the Indian farmers do have prior use rights in the forms they have traditionally used. I am no expert on these matters but have a little experience having a couple of trademarks myself. I guess we folks elsewhere on the planet better look under the covers and see what our BDAs are up to on this front. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 12:41:21 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18887 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:41:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06769; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06402 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:33:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.167] (pm3mbr4-166-167.intrepid.net [209.190.166.167]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18200 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:38:24 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01fc01bf5820$e2879f80$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> References: <01fc01bf5820$e2879f80$408ebdc6@Staff.santarosa.edu> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:08:07 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2945 >Alan writes: everyone told me that he was a Canadian from Emerson College.(Which, >however, is not true.)< > >For the record: Seems you are confusing (or have been confusing) Chuck Beedy >(current USBDA exec. director) with Roderick Shouldice (former USBDA exec. >director) who was (and is still) a Canadian with strong ties to Emerson >College. No, I'm not confused, in either case. The question often came up'Why does the BDA always choose Directors from Canada.' Speaking to Chuck on the phone didn't do much to clarify this popular misconception because - - and to the better! - - he definitely does not sound American. Only more recently have I learned (from him) that he is actually the penultimate of Americans: A Californian!! -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 13:10:55 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19395 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:10:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10366; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:04:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10152 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:03:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-67.40.alltel.net [166.102.67.40]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id MAA28742 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:08:26 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <71.7109e87e.25a6289c@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:15:10 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Intellectual property Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2946 >Charging for a product, whether it is BD or not, is the way many make their >living, Hugh L. and Woody are examples. Charging for knowledge about BD >should be no different though some here seem to think that is against the >"teachings". Even Hugh Courtney at JPI has started charging for his time on >consulting phone calls, as is entirely appropriate IMO. > >The best way to get a product (BD) in worldwide use is to professionally >market it showing the advantage to the customers whether they are farmers or >the ultimate consumers. After all isn't that what Steiner asked "us" to do, >get it in wide use to heal the earth. > >Dan L Sure makes good sense to me, Dan. I've found that often times people don't believe it is worth anything if you don't charge an arm and a leg. That doesn't mean you can't give it away to someone who appreciates its value. In fact when you do that you're magnanimous. Looks to me like a win/win situation. Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 13:10:55 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19398 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:10:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10314; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:04:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09725 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:59:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-67.40.alltel.net [166.102.67.40]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id MAA20020 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:04:44 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3874C9F7.2043@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:11:29 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Intellectual property Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2947 >Reading through the mountain of posts on this subject, I am drawn back >to the discussion we had last year about biodynamic ownership and all >the various pictures we were presented with of meeting this question. > >It appears to me that patenting and trademarks are the most 'exclusive' >act that can be taken as a statement of ownership. And any organisation >that performs such an act can hardly criticise others for charging for >their services and endevours. > >The anthroposophical ethics expressed in those posting are no where to >be found in this owneership reality. Funny that. > >Glen A. Glen, Where you been? I've been waiting for you to enter this discussion. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 14:37:05 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22113 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:37:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20570; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:31:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20258 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:29:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.42] (du-148-233-78-42.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNX00G4AI959S@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:31:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 12:52:21 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA20262 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2948 Dear Friend Allan: >Really, tell me again, Guillermo: what was the contribution of >Einstein to the world we biodyns want to inhabit. I'm sorry, I can't >figure it out. It must be obvious, please point it out to me. My favorite Einstein's contribution was an article he wrote named something like: "On the principle of relativity and its consequences" (Dec 4, 1907; Jahrb.d.Radioaktiv u. Electronik 4 (1907) 411. In this article Einstein introduces the principle of equivalences and gives the first solid step toward his General Theory on Relativity. His theory on relativity, IMO and from a spiritual perspective, is the first mathematical confirmation (objective) that the unified field theory is plausible; "one is all and all is one" Einstein put it like this: "A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest...a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." I am sure you do see the value of that single contribution, don't you?. I agree with what Wayne said, the splitting of uranium atoms for destructive purposes was imminent when he wrote his letter to Roosevelt. In that letter he points to the scientific work of Joliot in France, Fermi and Szilard in the US and to the actions of Von Weizacker and the Kaiser Wilheim Institute of Berlin; accumulating uranium from Poland and replicating the US research. In his historical context, he really did not have an option and took what was believed to be the best (or least bad) route. Einstein latter said: "The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker." I think this is way off our context, so I will stop here, but not without sharing with you another Einstein quote that showed up in my attachments folder: "Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them" > >A spoke at length with a permaculturist this pm. One thing she >jocularly pointed out was the number of biodynamic farmers who >bragged about their farm being a self-contained organism while at the >same it was being illuminated by power piped in for miles from nuke >reactors. I think she had a good point: in our methodology we've >overlooked an awful lot. For sure, nothing is perfect, otherwise we wouldn't be living MAYA, but I clearly remember your enthusiasm when we visit the Seven Star BD CSA in Kimberton, PA. You said that that was BD at its best (or something like that). I also remember seeing at the distance the horrible structures of a nuclear power plant. How do you say it ? Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder ?, I would say: "Las cosas son del color del cristal con que se miran". (In case some of you do not know what the Indian-Buddhist MAYA means, Einstein comes again handy: "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.") Permaculture and BD are complementary, I love them both, I do not see any need to make one school of thought superior to another, I rather benefit from both merits and contributions in a non exclusive and non dogmatic way. (BTW I am still talking about BD-Now and the BDA) > >It's your generous assumption of unknown Good that befuddles me, >Guillermo. Your idealistic suggestions are not workable in this >situation and I'll stick with the counsel I have taken. In addition, >I felt that my conversation with Chuck was very productive yesterday >and I feel right now that your suggestions in this particular >situation are rather retro. Well what can I say, if that is your chosen perspective of things, that is your sense of reality. > > In regards to the comments to Bruce, I believe that he took them >much better than you did. Look at what I said: information about You see, the BDA members do have their strong points. >farmers that need interns benefits many (in fact, the whole world), >information about interns looking for farms does the same. If you're >in a position of receiving that information for bi-monthly >publication, and you're already reading BD Now! and you've got to >type the stuff anyway, why not perform the service of dumping it as >often as possible into BD Now! so that farms may find interns and >interns may find farms even sooner? Were my comments born of >hostility to the BDA or of a personal bias towards 'from each >according to his ability to each according to his need'? I think, >perhaps, too much is read into my willingness to speak up. > >Again: it's not just a service to a farmer to have the BDA announce >his BD CSA, it is a service to every person who may be looking for a >CSA in that area. These are SERVICE-oriented processes and many >suffer when they become propritary - - or when stewardship claimed is >neglected. > >One wonders why you would criticize the relationship of your intimate >comrades with an organization that for many reasons you know so >little about. Speaking to Chuck yesterday, I recalled that for years >everyone told me that he was a Canadian from Emerson College.(Which, >however, is not true.) So, this is probably the explanation: You >Canadian bureaucrats intuitively stick together. :-) >-- Hey Allan I still like you a lot and hope you still consider me a true friend. I am very aware of your value, but 'am also aware of your rather harsh shell and that you really like wearing very dark glasses. (please translate my Spanish saying above) I do not think I am criticizing your relationship with the BDA, I simply do not have enough elements to say who is right or wrong. I am simply saying that it would be a good idea to heal things in order to work together and in peace. I just happen to believe that we all are one and one is all and see a real value in considering others for their merits also. I am not saying that you should yield your conscious or the freedom of BD-Now in favour of the BDA exclusive interests. I being a Canadian ?, Ummh as far as I know NO, my ancestors go back at least 300 years in Mexico. But your reference to this is a good example of how one can alter things to conform with a very absurd and untrue sense of reality. (BTW I know you meant that as a joke, but I can also twist things around to support my dark views. I am really smiling about it, thanks for being also light hearted ;o) And now my friend I will follow Einstein's advice for a sucessfull life: "If A is a success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut." :) Best Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 14:37:05 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22112 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:37:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20643; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:31:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20257 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:29:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.42] (du-148-233-78-42.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNX00G4AI959S@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:32:05 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 13:32:48 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA20260 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2949 Dear Hugh: I am in agreement with you, believe me. > >This may be, Guillermo, but thankfully it does not require anyone to pass >judgment on Allan. It only matters to Allan whether or not and in what >fashion his emotions may be involved. I think the fact remains that it is >reasonable to want BDA support and it would be top drawer to give it to him. > As I said to Allan, I really do not have the elements or the intention to pass judgment on anything. >>I also feel that there is an opportunity to integrate BD-Now and the BDAA >>again, but that will require a lot of openness, forgiveness, respect for >>one another, and willingness to collaborate. We will get no where with >>demands and insults. I hope for the good of all you can make it possible. >Guillermo. Of course you are right that openness, forgiveness, respect and >willingness are what is required in any event. This is just my personal >opinion, but I feel the BD Now is ever so much better off being separate >from the BDA. I remember what it was like when Allan was hanging, twisting >in the wind awaiting the whimsical decisions of the BDA board, most of >which had no insight whatsoever into Allan's needs. It might be a little >better and it might be a whole lot worse if BD Now were integrated into the >ABA. Do you remember what I told Wayne McEachern about what I would do if I >wanted to make biodynamic field broadcasting take off world wide? I said I >would start at least THREE enterprises. Between the BDA and the ABA there >are still only two and we need at LEAST THREE. Try out the idea that I >might know what I'm talking about and give this some thought, please. Okay? > >Best wishes, >Hugh Lovel I would not want BD-Now separated from the BDA, I do see the merit os keeping the list independent from ANY organization. In that way, it can act as a counter balance and as a mirror for the operations; even as a forum for saying what is wrong and what can be improved upon. As it is today, it is separate from BDA, we never get to hear the perspective that the BDA has, and that my friend is biased. Why is it so difficult to think that you can support two views or more at the same time ? I consult three different newspapers, with clearly different ideologies, each day to more or less get an idea of what is going on in my country. Ideally I dream of a newspaper, honest and mature enough, to accept and recognize every opinion or perspective of things, after all their objective is to inform not manipulate. But that does not happen here, there are ideologies, politics and economic interests on the way. I have nothing against ABA, but because of the way a like things done (gentle), I would not consider joining at this time. But I wish you and Greg success for the benefit of all. If BD had the same recognition and distribution than coke has I would love it, imagine having pre-potensized 500, 2 "litter" pet bottles avail at the neighborhood store !! Lovely !!!! Unfortunately, that is not the reality. Therefore I consider a waste of time and energy to be fighting against each other when we have an underlying agreement and so many clients out there to serve. Which reminds me to go back to Einstein's advice for a successful life: to work, play and shut my mouth. Best Friend. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 15:50:21 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23868 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:50:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28654; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:43:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28264 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:40:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca91.vthokies.net [206.153.172.91]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28812 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:26:41 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.0.25.20000106140741.00a85560@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.25 (Beta) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 15:45:28 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: gardner Subject: OFF: Re: Einstein In-Reply-To: References: <3873716A.95E75B70@erols.com> <3873716A.95E75B70@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2950 At 12:56 PM 1/5/00 -0400, Allan wrote: >Einstein provided the intellectual insight that led to the development of >the atomic bomb and had neither the humanity nor the insight to hold it >back. I don't REALLY REALLY think he's an evil man - - this is what always >happens when men work for the king instead of the people - - but I really >question the WHOLESOMENESS of calling him "MAN of the CENTURY" as the >military industrial multi-national shadow government pulications seem to >be doing. Or, look at it this way, if bombing civilian populations in >Japan was really a bankholdup, Einstein would definitely be seen as an >accomplice. And let's never forget how the bomb, the power plants and the >waste have held us hostage for more than half of this century. Those of you who are really interested in this topic might want to read about Werner Heisenberg's actions related to the atomic bomb that Hitler was trying to develop. Here is the publisher's blurb from the back cover of Thomas Power's "Heisenberg's War: The Secret History of the German Bomb." One of the central mysteries of World War II -- still unexplained -- is why Germany, the birthplace of modern physics, failed to develop the atomic bomb. In this critically accalimed work, Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter Thomas Powers offers a controversial and convincing explanation. Werner Heisenberg, a Nobel laureate considered by many to be the world's greatest practicing physicist, knew enough to build the bomb, but his moral sense led him to exaggerate the difficulties involved and deliberately discourage German efforts in the initial stages. As Powers writes, "Heisenberg did not simply withhold himself, stand aside, let the project die. ... He killed it." Though in his lifetime Heisenberg was by turns stubbornly silent and occasionally contradictory, Powers skillfully teases out a believable and radical explanation. "If we want to know what Heisenberg actually thought about the bomb at the time we must turn to the shadow history of the night, as recorded in memoirs, private letters, diaries, remembered conversations, and the files of the intelligence services." Powers explains. His prodigious research draws on years of study and dozens of interviews with surviving participants of the German A-bomb program. the result is a riveting tale of espionage, morality, and military necessity that not only fascinates but illuminates one of the most intriguing deceptions of the twentieth century. For a light review of this book, see: http://www.collegequarterly.org/CQ.html/FF.013.Rev.Powers.html For a heavier discussion of the topic by the author, see: http://www.acslink.aone.net.au/bclancy/haigerloch/s92_goldberg.html And for balance, questions about whether "e = mc2" really did contribute to the bomb: http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/littleton/mp_physi.htm --Malcolm Gardner From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 18:04:04 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26736 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:04:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA12107; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 17:57:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub2.une.edu.au (postfix@mailhub2.une.edu.au [129.180.4.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11825 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 17:53:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from Enveng-dforster.une.edu.au (enveng-dforster.une.edu.au [129.180.135.50]) by mailhub2.une.edu.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 005131F; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:58:16 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000107095948.007b6250@metz.une.edu.au> X-Sender: dforster@metz.une.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 09:59:48 +1100 To: bdnow@envirolink.org, bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dianne Forster Subject: Re: Field Broadcasters In-Reply-To: References: <387379C1.1400F082@LightExpression.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2951 Hugh, I don't know anything about your broadcasters and would like to. Where can I look up information? Deanna At 15:31 5/01/00 -0500, Hugh Lovel wrote: >>Hugh Lovel wrote: >> >>> Prior to this I have kept my mouth shut about my biodynamic field >>> broadcasters and just called them field broadcasters. This has been >>> worrying me for quite some time, because the real truth is they are >>> biodynamic field broadcasters >> >>So Hugh -- only trying to state the obvious -- perhaps you could trademark >>"Bio-Dynamic Field Broadcasters" -- or get permission from whomever (in fact) >>holds the BD trademark. Seems like a reasonable request in promotion and best >>interest of all BD concepts -- providing everyone is working from integrity in >>this matter. Integrity is in fact a spiritual concept which humanity is >>in need >>of healing and is in fact healing. >> >>Wayne >>*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* >> >>Sharon and Wayne McEachern > > > > >Dear Wayne, > >Who knows if everyone is working with integrity in this matter? > >I wouldn't want to make too many assumptions, would you? > >I'm basically only concerned with seeing that I'm part of the filing >process with Greg and Courtney so I can be sure that the term BD preps is >trademarked for the public domain, AND that Demeter makes out an affadavit >to the effect they are conveying THEIR trademark of biodynamic to the >public domain. Both parts are key interests of mine. > >Other than that I consider this whole business rather foolish. > >I'm sure there will end up being all kinds of people making biodynamic >field broadcasters, including, hopefully, at least a handful who really >know what they are doing. So what? From my point of view I HOPE so. If I >really wanted to capitalize on such a thing I'd set up at least three >stockholder corporations competing with each other and own a hefty chunk of >stock in all three. It would be far more profitable than to have one >company. > >Coke wouldn't be nearly so ubiquitous without Pepsi, you know? There's >probably cokes in the Gobi Desert, to say nothing of the polar stations, by >now for crying out loud. > >What do I really care if I can get the result that the benefits of our >preparations are applied to the widest possible areas over the entire >earth? So MANY people lose sight of the real objectives in the light of >personal ambition. > >THAT (and a few similar things) was the REAL message I tried to get out >there as a result of all this brou-ha-ha Did anyone get that? Do I hear any >sign that anyone learned something from all this? > >Warm regards, >Hugh Lovel > > Dianne Forster Environmental Engineering University of New England Armidale NSW 2350 Australia phone 02 6773 3110 fax 02 6773 3084 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 18:23:01 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA27085 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:23:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA13664; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:16:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from m11.boston.juno.com (m11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.194]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13502 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:15:47 -0500 (EST) Received: "qvbuBYpd40NuYQRaxysYCTCCLpZjfAGKuDBPwoaY0PQTEV7t/HpJzQ==" Received: (from laquerencia@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EVPF6LFV; Thu, 06 Jan 2000 18:20:26 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 17:21:25 -0600 Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Message-ID: <20000106.172126.21694.1.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-6,15-21,29-32 From: Deborah M Byron Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2952 I'm talking about a little >publication put out by a department of the federal government that >extensively quotes the only credentialed biodyn they could find and >as a result presents an imbalanced view of biodynamics--one >essentially devoid of spirit, Steiner and real force. (Hence the >Ahrimanic reference.) According to my understanding, ATTRA is funded by several sources, one being the USDA. It isn't a federal agency. But so what if it was? If you have objections to the publication Steve Diver put together, perhaps you should talk it over with him. He seems like a pretty nice guy to me--he follows a spiritual path, meditates, and has just purchased a small organic farm. But beyond personality clashes, isn't your attitude towards him and ATTRA a bit remeniscent of the attitude you complain of getting from the BDA? Your standards have been violated so you call the work ahrimanic. >What about you, Deborah? Do you think its appropriate for >Demeter--especially on their web page - - to NOT refer people to BD >Now!? I'm in favor of all three organizations providing links to each other, of course. But I'm not privy to the history that has led to such animosities. It doesn't, however, surprise me that the BDA has to apparently struggle with some sort of organizational double. It seems to come with the territory. Whenever a group forms and begins to act, tests will arise. Personally, I look forward to seeing what the new BD organization will do. And that includes an interest in how it will deal with its double when the time comes. No, I don't work for ATTRA, Deborah ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 18:51:24 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA27583 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:51:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16188; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:45:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15885 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:41:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.42] (du-148-233-78-243.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNX005GNTXIIC@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 17:44:30 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 17:44:48 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA In-reply-to: <20000106.172126.21694.1.LaQuerencia@juno.com> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id SAA15887 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2953 > I'm talking about a little >publication put out by a department of the >federal government that >>extensively quotes the only credentialed biodyn they could find and >>as a result presents an imbalanced view of biodynamics--one >>essentially devoid of spirit, Steiner and real force. (Hence the >>Ahrimanic reference.) > > According to my understanding, ATTRA is funded by several >sources, one being the USDA. It isn't a federal agency. But so what if >it was? If you have objections to the publication Steve Diver put >together, perhaps you should talk it over with him. He seems like a >pretty nice guy to me--he follows a spiritual path, meditates, and has >just purchased a small organic farm. But beyond personality clashes, >isn't your attitude towards him and ATTRA a bit remeniscent of the >attitude you complain of getting from the BDA? Your standards have been >violated so you call the work ahrimanic. > I remember Steve Diver pre-viewing his BD article on this same list with the purpose of getting feedback. Before that I also remeber him asking for information sources for writing his review of BD. So it is not like he was only open to "credentialized" sources. I have used his article quite a lot and it has being very usefull to let people know a little about BD. I do like his approach because I already have a hard time trying to convince certain people about the benefits of Org Ag, and it would be very unwise for me, in certain circles (that is in perspective and within a cultural and historical context), to introduce as well spiritual concepts. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 20:32:35 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28897 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:32:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA25147; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:26:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA24580 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.62.alltel.net [166.102.66.62]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id TAA03892 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 19:26:28 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000107095948.007b6250@metz.une.edu.au> References: <387379C1.1400F082@LightExpression.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:33:13 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Field Broadcasters Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2954 Dear Dianne, Previously these stationary self-driven field broadcasters have been known as Cosmic Pipes. You would find a couple or three af my articles in back issues of ACRES, Australia. I believe there's also something on the BDNow website. I'm busy writing more. Spent half the day doing office work though. Best, Hugh Lovel >Hugh, I don't know anything about your broadcasters and would like to. >Where can I look up information? Deanna > > >At 15:31 5/01/00 -0500, Hugh Lovel wrote: >>>Hugh Lovel wrote: >>> >>>> Prior to this I have kept my mouth shut about my biodynamic field >>>> broadcasters and just called them field broadcasters. This has been >>>> worrying me for quite some time, because the real truth is they are >>>> biodynamic field broadcasters >>> >> >> >Dianne Forster >Environmental Engineering >University of New England >Armidale NSW 2350 Australia >phone 02 6773 3110 >fax 02 6773 3084 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 20:41:50 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29012 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:41:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA26000; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:35:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from web209.mail.yahoo.com (web209.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.109]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA25763 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:32:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 21278 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Jan 2000 01:37:18 -0000 Message-ID: <20000107013718.21277.qmail@web209.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.194.109.136] by web209.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 06 Jan 2000 17:37:18 PST Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 17:37:18 -0800 (PST) From: SRC Subject: Einstein and the rest of the Gang To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2955 --- gardner wrote: > > Those of you who are really interested in this topic might want to read > about Werner Heisenberg's actions related to the atomic bomb that Hitler > was trying to develop. I've read it and agree that he was a hero. Just imagine what this world would be like if Bohr, Plank, Fermi, and the rest had gone on strike! Stephen ===== "Don't hold yourself hostage to the good opinion of other people". BOOK: "Light on the Return Path": Prime explication of the "Hopi Prophecies"; by John Kimmey, for decades the assistant and travelling companion of Elder David Monongye. The voice of the One-Hearted Path speaks. www.SacredMedia.com Joy to the World, Blessings to the Heart, and Love,Sweet Love,for us all! *ø,¸¸,ø*°`¥´°*ø,¸¸,ø*°`¥´°*ø,¸¸,ø*°`¥´°*ø,¸¸,ø*``¥´°*`ø,¸¸,ø*°`¥´°*ø, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 20:51:04 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29139 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:51:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA26595; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:45:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (web1.vphos.net [207.102.129.200]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA26511 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:44:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.151]) by web1.vphos.net ; Thu, 06 Jan 2000 17:48:59 -0800 Message-ID: <017401bf58b1$61cf6260$59cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: Subject: OFF: Grower Profile Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:47:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2956 To the List: Back before the trademark wars and before the holiday lull, someone suggested everyone would benefit if BDNOW folk would tell a bit about themselves, what they do, what conditions they operate under. Perhaps it was during that wonderful exchange between Michael Roboz and Tony Nelson-Smith, when we heard about the landscape and workscape of Wales. Now I will take that opportunity, mostly to dispel any notion Allan may have left with you that I am personally responsible for the remarkable fecundity of seeds from Aurora Biodynamic Farm. When I joined Barbara M V Scott here 16 months ago Aurora Farm was already thriving, and the seed business was well established with a steady and growing customer base enjoying the seeds and raving about them in much the same terms Allan uses. I've been _learning_ from Barbara this past year and more, not teaching...teaching we will both do this year if the appropriate learners show themselves here. Prior to coming to British Columbia I did 15 garden projects in a dozen states in the U.S. By projects, I mean gardens [and farming endeavors] considerably larger than it would take to feed the family...in the most recent situation, a 100-member CSA. These gardens happened over a period of 35 years, from my first farm in Kentucky, when I was essentially clueless about the rudiments of agriculture, much less Biodynamics...to Claymont Court in 1975 [ from where Allan writes us] where I first heard about Biodynamics...to Kimberton, PA, and Minnesota, where I worked with the likes of Joel Morrow and Hartmut von Jeetze. In all of these situations, as in the present one, what I've learned has been more important than what I "accomplished" in ordinary terms. I have a notebook section, "Huge Mistakes," covering those foulups where the lessons have been most dramatic and lastingly useful. Allan mentions my book, which is a-borning. The working title is "Sixteen Biodynamic Gardens: Lessons Learned." And you should know: THIS IS THE LAST YEAR FOR AURORA FARM SEEDS. Barbara and I will be on to new adventures by this time next year, carrying with us our personal seed collection...our ancestors' blessing. Many fond regards to all, Woody From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 6 21:23:09 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29675 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:23:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA28261; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:09:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28024 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:05:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.167] (pm3mbr4-166-205.intrepid.net [209.190.166.205]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06190 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:10:43 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000107095948.007b6250@metz.une.edu.au> References: <387379C1.1400F082@LightExpression.com> <3.0.6.32.20000107095948.007b6250@metz.une.edu.au> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:11:48 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Field Broadcasters Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2957 >Hugh, I don't know anything about your broadcasters and would like to. >Where can I look up information? Deanna Pardon my ignorance, Hugh/Deanna, but if a broadcaster is the same as a cosmic pipe, there is an introductory article at the UAI pages off from the BD Now! pages at http://www.igg.com/bdnow (pick UAI from the LEARN BIODYNAMICS menu) Please advise. -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 7 00:12:02 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01876 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:12:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA09915; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:05:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03667 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 22:30:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-67.111.alltel.net [166.102.67.111]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id VAA04503 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:35:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000107095948.007b6250@metz.une.edu.au> <387379C1.1400F082@LightExpression.com> <3.0.6.32.20000107095948.007b6250@metz.une.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 22:41:49 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Field Broadcasters Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2958 >>Hugh, I don't know anything about your broadcasters and would like to. >>Where can I look up information? Deanna > > >Pardon my ignorance, Hugh/Deanna, but if a broadcaster is the same as >a cosmic pipe, there is an introductory article at the UAI pages off >from the BD Now! pages at http://www.igg.com/bdnow (pick UAI from the >LEARN BIODYNAMICS menu) > >Please advise. -Allan >-- Dear Allan, Yes. Basically the same. We have continued to make advances in our technology and at this point we are about 10 generations of advancement beyond Galen Hieronymus' Cosmic Pipes. We don't call them that any more. In fact, when I get this new article done, we need to take that old thing down from the web page and put the new one up. It will b e far more informative. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 7 00:12:06 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01884 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:12:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA10179; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:06:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA07654 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 23:35:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.125.alltel.net [166.102.66.125]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id WAA07033 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 22:40:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 23:46:53 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2959 Guillermo writes: I have nothing against ABA, but because of the way a like things done (gentle), I would not consider joining at this time. But I wish you and Greg success for the benefit of all. If BD had the same recognition and distribution than coke has I would love it, imagine having pre-potensized 500, 2 "litter" pet bottles avail at the neighborhood store !! Lovely !!!! Unfortunately, that is not the reality. Therefore I consider a waste of time and energy to be fighting against each other when we have an underlying agreement and so many clients out there to serve. Which reminds me to go back to Einstein's advice for a successful life: to work, play and shut my mouth. Best Friend. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO Dear Guillermo, I'm not sure where you are getting some of this. I'm a member of BOTH the BDA and the ABA and I'm looking forward to writing for the journals of both organizations AND (especially) the BDNow list. I've just gone to considerable trouble to ensure that the term biodynamic will be placed in the public domain as a generic term rather than the exclusive province of the Demeter Association. Now you are acting as though all should be under one roof--we should put all our eggs into one basket or there is something not quite kosher or right with us. Huh? Is there something about your view of independence that says those who are independent cannot be interactive? There must be some reason Noah took two of every kind aboard the ark. Of course he had no room to spare for more. In our current circumstance I'd sure feel a lot better with three. I still remember our list moderator waiting for the BDA board to give him funding a few years back. Twisting in the wind. And then the board in their infinite wisdom and knowing nothing of Allan's circumstance tossed him a well-cleaned bone. It sure was wise, all right, because it taught him a lesson to rely on how own resources or those he could muster from sources far more sympathetic than the BDA. I've personally given him a little funding from now and then. I believe others have. I wrote him a letter appealing for funding from the list at large, though he hasn't used it yet. Really, the BDA should have some presence and be interactive in some kind of an official capacity on this list--though it takes someone doing it because they want to, not as a chore. At least you might think this list would be a place to raise membership. I dunno. I do know that interaction, by definition, is a give and take between at least two if not more. When you've only got one entity, where's the give and take? What I have been chafing at the bit to see at the top of the agenda ever since I've been in the BDA is getting the benefits of the BD preps applied to the widest possible areas over the entire earth. I've been around 23 years and not seen any discernable sign of this yet. I DO remember many years back when Mary Lee Plumb-Mentjes wrote an article about trace application of preps to watershed areas. With that in mind our Atlanta BD club camped one Easter in Joyce Kilmer National Forest in the Smokies and sprayed all the preps on one weekend. And Lorraine Cahill dowsed for power spots at both ends of the Grand Canyon National Park and buried vials of preps to radiate out on the ley lines. Hugh Courtney and Beau Johnson went to lthe nation's capitol and sprayed the White House, the USDA and the Vietnam Memorial. But these acts took place irregardless of the BDA itself which could as well have been a flower on the wall. Since this is the case you may ask what do we need with the BDA? Well I think we DO need the BDA to publish and sell books, to coordinate information, network addresses, answer inquiries and put out a newsletter. And I'm sure no more of these functions will be duplicated by the ABA than necessary. After all, the ABA will be too busy working on the job of covering the earth with the preps, for crying out loud. You seem to think we just HAVE to be one big happy and live under the same roof. Well I don't think so, nor do I think that separate households is going to lead to fighting. How do you figure fighting? I generally see more fighting in households where too many people are forced to all live under the same roof. Well, admitedly, I'm not making much sense out of what you posted. Maybe I need to, as you put it, shut up and head for bed. I've got an outline and some crude draft material on the article about biodynamic field broadcasting. It looks like it will be too long for Bruce. I'll have to draft it out and see what I get. No doubt it will be great fun providing I've had a night's rest. Best, Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 7 00:12:39 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01898 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:12:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA10126; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:05:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05166 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 22:50:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d173.infoserve.net [199.175.157.173]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id TAA11813 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 19:58:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002a01bf58c3$cc2e0be0$ad9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF/ for Deb. Byron Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:00:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF5880.AE3AA3C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2960 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF5880.AE3AA3C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Deb, Do you have an adress from Robert Steward's operation in San Diego? Michael ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF5880.AE3AA3C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Deb,
 
  Do you have an adress = from Robert=20 Steward's operation in San Diego?
Michael
------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF5880.AE3AA3C0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 7 04:58:45 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA04029 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 04:58:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA24581; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 04:52:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA24398 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 04:48:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from xtra.co.nz ([210.55.125.121]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <20000107095728.KBHA21196.mta2-rme@xtra.co.nz> for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 22:57:28 +1300 Message-ID: <3875B512.17381D7D@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 22:42:42 +1300 From: eaccess Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNow Subject: BD Preps - Radioactivity - Organic Calcium Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2961 Dear Cramer Gefren, Malcolm Gardner and List. Thanks Malcolm for your very interesting posts from Pfeiffer and about Werner Heisenberg. There are references from Maria Thun about various aspects of Radioactivity in her booklet "Working with the Stars" the 1987 edition. (1) A quick summary from this booklet reveals that " radioactive substances and different kinds of radiation do not penetrate into the Cow Horn which is used for two of the preparations" and she also writes "This year we have received many reports telling us that where there have been regular sprayings during the last few years the measured radiation was considerably less than in neighbouring areas. Similar results have been reported about compost heaps treated with the preparations" (2) The regular sprayings mentioned here are of the "Manure concentrate of Maria Thun" which is a base of cow manure to which is added finely ground organic calcium in the form of eggshells ,also basalt dust and all the BD Preparations. Recipe available in the BD Literature. Further on In our experiments with growing plants on a sandy soil, those that had been grown on a soil treated with egg shells and ground basalt showed no Strontium 90" - (3) However, from Pfeffer's quotation given by Malcolm, - why would the oak bark preparation become radioactive? it would appear that there is a very strong relationship between organic Calcium and Radioactivity. Strontium 90 being deposited in the Bones would be one example which springs to mind, and another which I recall from notes taken in 1991, a TV program called ' Beyond 2000' screened a piece about an extract of Acorns (organic calcium?) which was added to Calcium Chloride and used to precipitate heavy metal molecules from waste water solutions from the production of Uranium Oxide. resulting in a complete recovery of radioactive uranium and other heavy metals from solution. Steiner talks about "....the hidden alchemy in the organic process, " and how limestone, the chalky nature can be transmuted if it is working rightly in the organic process..... (4) So we have a polarity of sorts here, Transmutation of the elements in the inorganic sphere giving radioactivity, and transmutation of Calcium in the organic sphere giving nitrogen . and while on the subject of radioactivity: Steiner also predicted the future use of what he called "The Third Force" and made drawings of a machine which was called "The Strader Machine" and it is important to note - THIS MACHINE HAD A RADIOACTIVE COMPONENT, namely Radium (remember this is about 1912) in the form of Pitchblende. The original drawings are either lost or not yet available, but accurate secondary copies were made by Schmeidel and are available on line via:- http://website.lineone.net/~coolbyte/anthro/strader.htm The Rudolf Steiner Publishing Company also published some incomplete notes regarding this. (5) The time frame in which Steiner indicated this technology would be discovered was exactly the time in which World War II was raging. Steiner emphasised the links of this future technology to Morality, in other words he indicated that the Strader Machine would require a Moral Impulse from Man to initiate a safe chain reaction , of course he also mentioned what would happen if there was no moral impulse, there can hardly be so in wartime -( but Heisenberg must surely be the exception) - and the resulting development without this moral impulse, is, as we all know, the nuclear world, of the present. The Moral Pole of safe atomic energy has yet to be developed, it is the safe energy source of the future. Back to Agriculture:- Steiner elaborates on the mathematical relationships between Light Ether and Life Ether in his Warmth Course Lectures (6) In the realm of Sub nature, we have the so-called ' fallen ' ethers manifesting as follows:- Fallen Light ether - Electricity Fallen Tone ether - Magnetism Fallen Life ether - Third Force (which includes radioactivity) If we increase the etheric forces in a specific area, we can also measure the corresponding increase in the "fallen ethers" So if we have radioactive fallout, we also have an increase - beyond normal bounds - of Life Ether and here is the danger, because the Life Ether (from the Sun) must be kept within bounds, this is done by the ozone layer. (7) Life Ether has an affinity for organic matter, and is repelled by inorganic matter, this being the basis for pioneering experimental work in "Orgone Energy" by scientist Wilhelm Reich, his "Orgone Accumulator" actually being a device which layered inorganic and organic materials the more layers the stronger the accumulation, the outer layer organic, the inner inorganic. However as he found out, it is very dangerous to add any radioactive substance to this, the resulting "feedback" if that is the word, caused such an increase in Life Ether, that his workers became ill.(8) Life ether also works very closely with Tone ether, both having a centripetal (suction) action . Reich was unable to distinguish or separate the two clearly, lumping them together in the general term "Orgone Energy" He did however develop a motor? but sealed this work until 50 years after his death. My previous post about the relationship between the Oak Bark preparation and the Light Ether (or more precisely the Entities living in the formative forces of Light Ether) { 20-11-98, L.2.2 Study Notes (J.T.1) }can now be seen in a larger context in the relationship of that Light Ether to the Life ether, the correspondence being the same as the relationship between imaginary numbers in mathematics to super imaginary numbers Where there is a single polarity between Warmth Ether and Tone Ether - if one is plus the other must be minus, there would appear to be a double polarity between Life Ether and Light Ether expressed mathematically in superimaginary and imaginary numbers. If we have Radioactivity -It would appear we also need excess Calcium in its organic form to "balance out" or "lock up" or neutralise its effects.However when the limits are reached, the organic calcium itself becomes radioactive. There is an intimate relationship between organic Calcium and the Light ether, and its "polarity" the Life Ether together with its sub-earthly manifestation - radiation. The Etheric Formative forces as they work through the Solar System as outlined by Dr. Wachsmuth (9.) are worth bearing in mind again A Primary polarity of LIFE ETHER between the Sun and the Earth Inner Planets Moon - Tone Ether Planetary Venus - Light Ether Planetary Mercury - Warmth Ether Outer Planets Mars - Tone Ether Jupiter - Light Ether Saturn - Warmth Ether Bearing in mind the relationships between Warmth Ether (working centrifugally - expansively) and Tone Ether (Working centripetally - contractively) we can see that there is a polarity between the Moon and Saturn Thus for the germination of seeds, at least those which germinate quickly, if we add water (carrier of the Tone Ether) and warmth (carrier of the Warmth Ether) when the Moon is in opposition to Saturn, we get a very balanced working of formative forces into the seed Chaos, and the result is also a very balanced plant. However as all gardeners know, seeds sometimes germinate according to their own schedule, the elemental beings of nature having the last say in the matter. JT 1. Working with the Stars - 1987 Maria and Matthias K. Thun 1987 - ISBN 0 906155 23 1 Landthorn Press. 2. Above - p. 9 3. Above - p.11 4. Agriculture - Rudolf Steiner p. 98 third Edition 1974. 5. Beitrage zur Rudolf Steiner Gesamtausgbe Nr.107- 1991 "Der Strader-Apparat" see webpage. 6. Warmth Course, Rudolf Steiner - Lecture XII - 12 March 1920. 7. The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos Earth and Man - Guenther Wachsmuth - Vol 1 1932 - Chapter VII p. 126. 8. The Oranur Experiment - first report 1947 - 1951 Wilhelm Reich - Orgone Institute press. 9. The Etheric World in Science, Art and Religon - Guenther Wachsmuth 1927. Part1, Chapter 1. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 14:51:08 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20572 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:10:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA13860; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:03:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09513 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 19:40:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.190.alltel.net [166.102.66.190]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA04031 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 18:45:19 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3874CF67.5920@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 19:50:39 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD trademark Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2962 I guess we folks elsewhere on the planet better look under the covers and see what our BDAs are up to on this front. Glen A. Dear Glen, I guess you never know. 'Tis said, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. I believe that was Thomas Jefferson. Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 14:57:18 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26948 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 14:57:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28511; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 14:51:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from www0d.netaddress.usa.net (www0d.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.33]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27987 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 14:46:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 24108 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jan 2000 18:22:58 -0000 Message-ID: <20000110182258.24107.qmail@www0d.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.33 by www0d for [142.176.90.139] via web-mailer(M3.3.1.96) on Mon Jan 10 18:22:58 GMT 2000 Date: 10 Jan 00 10:22:58 PST From: cramer gefren To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Lievegoed X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.3.1.96) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA27989 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2963 There were a number of references in the archives to a Lievegoed pamphlet. I am wondering which publication this is (I believe it was in the Calcium/Silica discussion). Tri-Fold Books, a Canadian supplier of anthroposophical books, has a number of books by Lievegoed. Also, the Agriculture course intro recommends that one have read Steiner's Theosophy and Occult Science before delving into Agriculture. (I already have How to Know Higher Worlds.) My question is why not start with one of Steiner's books on Anthroposophy? Any recommendations? I can't afford to buy many books at once. Nancy Geffken ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 14:58:06 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29808 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 16:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA10037; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 16:03:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09895 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 16:00:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([210.55.161.199]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000108211022.QCDP21196.mta2-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 10:10:22 +1300 Message-ID: <3877A6CE.7FC7@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 10:06:22 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNOW Subject: BDNOW & BDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2964 G R wrote > If BD had the same recognition and distribution than coke has I would love > it, imagine having pre-potensized 500, 2 "litter" pet bottles avail at the > neighborhood store !! Lovely !!!! > We are not too far away from this being a reality here in NZ - well in garden & ag supplies shops anyway . The recent Reganold research on the preps should just about do it. cheers GA. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 14:58:11 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00319 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:35:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA15121; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15010 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:28:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.27.alltel.net [166.102.66.27]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id QAA18425 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 16:33:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3877A6CE.7FC7@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:40:12 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BDNOW & BDA Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2965 >G R wrote > >> If BD had the same recognition and distribution than coke has I would love >> it, imagine having pre-potensized 500, 2 "litter" pet bottles avail at the >> neighborhood store !! Lovely !!!! >> > >We are not too far away from this being a reality here in NZ - well in >garden & ag supplies shops anyway . The recent Reganold research on the >preps should just about do it. > >cheers > >GA. Really Glen? Please, do tell us more. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 14:58:14 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00598 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:59:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16486; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:53:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.68]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA16355 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:50:59 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.13.130c7505 (4563) for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:55:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <13.130c7505.25a91a5f@aol.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:55:27 EST Subject: Re: BDNOW & BDA To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2966 In a message dated 1/8/00 4:08:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, Garuda@xtra.co.nz writes: << The recent Reganold research on the preps should just about do it. cheers GA. >> Is there some new analysis on the preps? I know about the 93 article by Reaganold on NZ farms and later with Carpenter-Boggs in 97 but you seem to infer something newer - "recent". Please share any newer info because it's a long way from being on the shelves in the U.S. Dan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 14:58:26 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26438 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 10:30:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18455; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 10:24:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18192 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 10:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.84] (pm3mbr2-166-84.intrepid.net [209.190.166.84]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA29678 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 10:25:33 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 10:29:22 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Dealing w/ tree roots and septic pipes Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2967 Here at Claymont there are several older homes that are having repeated problems with tree roots clogging septic drains (drains are both clay and poly pipe) There's never much cash here, so visits from the 'rooter man' are not really practical. One fellow here has recommended pouring COPPER down the drains regularly to kill the tree roots back. This doesn't seem very prudent to me, but I've come to hate erroring on the side of caution at the edge of community-environmentalism-economics. (I encourage caution, I just don't want to buy pass a solution because my caution was unfounded.) Any suggestions on the copper or better solution w.b. appreciated. Thanks -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 14:58:32 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13616 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:35:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16165; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmx06.iname.net (rmx06.iname.net [165.251.8.205]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07881 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:05:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from web11.mail.com by rmx06.iname.net (8.9.1/8.8.0) with SMTP id OAA02224 ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:10:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <380782398.947272207046.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:10:07 -0500 (EST) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: From Ferdinand Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 206.207.76.93 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2968 Future generations demand to know what we have done for them - and not only for ourselves. Reading books a hundred or more years from now may be impossible since it is likely that only a few trees will be left. People of the future will be able to read a living tree like a book. And they will be able to uncover what we thought, felt and DID in that process. Let us seed and plant trees with pure hearts. This may help our children's children to overcome the anger and dispair they feel when they see the devastation we have wrought onto this earth. FV - www.c-dar.com ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 14:58:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20576 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:10:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA13785; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:03:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07902 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 19:14:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.156.alltel.net [166.102.66.156]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA11084 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 18:19:31 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <380695059.947284951735.JavaMail.root@web08.pub01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 19:26:22 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: RE: the trees Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2969 Pam writes: > >Besides the need for more trees on this earth, my >other concern is the amount of good farmland being >subdivided and taken up for housing. I recently >moved from the Salmon River Mountains (wah) down >to southwest Idaho. I have a scary feeling the >pattern of development is the same here as >elsewhere: new homes being built right on top of >good soil down on the valley floor, instead of on >the next level up around the edges of the valley. >I wonder if there will have to be a line on the >national budget in three or four generations to >tear down buildings and break up concrete in order >to reclaim soil that will surely be needed for >growing food. I believe you can bet money on it. Hugh > >Pam DeTray > >----------------------------------------------- >FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com >Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 14:58:53 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13774 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:42:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18118; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18034 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:36:05 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp333.cy-net.net [208.21.195.142]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09317 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:41:02 -0600 Message-Id: <200001072041.OAA09317@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:19:30 -0600 Subject: the trees Priority: normal In-reply-to: <380782398.947272207046.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2970 Thanks, Pam, I was wondering what Ferdy was up to. Someone asked where to buy the BD Preps, and besides the places listed, I believe Ferdinand's C-Dar Foundation also makes them for resale. One conversation (may have been him) someone stated they practiced going out and talking with the trees. I've discovered something vaguely similar. I've been talking to the unborn foals in my mares' bellies. No big surprise that when the foals are on the ground, they respond to my voice from day 1 and come to me as often as they do their Moms! I am sorry, though that I don't have any encouraging words to offer about the plight of the trees. I see it too, people cutting down timber (bulldozing and burning good useful wood at that) and creating arid landscapes for reasons that defy any explanation I could come up with. Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 15:11:42 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27599 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:11:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA29937; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:05:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA29882 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:05:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([203.96.93.91]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000110201000.ITYD3144.mta3-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:10:00 +1300 Message-ID: <387A3CDD.52C7@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:11:09 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BDNOW & BDA References: <3879526D.755D@xtra.co.nz> <006901bf5b8a$05bc3c60$21ca2cc3@m00q6c00> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2971 TONY NELSON-SMITH wrote: > > Glen and others: I seem to remember a suggestion, aired in this forum as > well as elsewhere, that homeopathic remedies ought to be transmissible by > internet. My mind boggles but, evidently, others don't. You referred to > the distribution of BD preps by telephone order and mail delivery as not > being very C21 - any thoughts on whether they, too, could be distributed > electronically ? Tony N-S. Sounds pretty wild but I guess as an extention of radionics they could be. I do not know much about his field, however why not. GA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 15:21:17 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27870 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:21:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00892; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:15:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00564 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:12:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([203.96.93.91]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000110201717.IVHS3144.mta3-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:17:17 +1300 Message-ID: <387A3E91.597D@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:18:25 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BDNOW & BDA References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2972 LMvine@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1/9/00 10:37:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Garuda@xtra.co.nz writes: > > << Dan I posted something to the list around Xmas. Also put J reganold in > the search engine and it should appear quickly. > > Glen A >> > > Tried that and got the ATTRA article which references articles in my previous > post. > > Dan Dan try this address http://www.nal.usda.gov/ttic/tektran/data/000009/06/0000090623.html GA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 15:38:01 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21751 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 12:27:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11547; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 12:22:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11346 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 12:20:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.86] (du-148-233-78-86.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO4005CHQZO4A@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:23:54 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:25:21 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Mt Everest, for crying out loud ! In-reply-to: <004401bf5b88$563ecf60$21ca2cc3@m00q6c00> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2973 > You refer to the synchronicity of this list: I notice that >Guillermo is suggesting, sarcastically, almost what I was enquiring about >seriously (a broadcaster on Everest). > > Best wishes, Tony N-S Hey Tony: I am not suggesting anything of the sort, I am still asking (sarcastically), what would be the specific strategy of the ABA to cover the Earth with preps ?. Hugh IMO has not responded with an strategy, but has just mentioned that people should be involved (that is a new one!) and that it can not be done with the traditional spraying but that we will need to use his field broadcasters. Just for the record Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 15:38:02 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28499 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 14:24:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03494; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 14:18:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA03365 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 14:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from xtra.co.nz ([210.55.81.69]) by mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <20000108192152.OSKI3352759.mta4-rme@xtra.co.nz> for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:21:52 +1300 Message-ID: <38778C03.FAF98C96@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 08:12:04 +1300 From: eaccess Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNow Subject: Re: BD Preps - Radioactivity - Organic Calcium. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2974 Dear Malcolm Thanks for your perceptive comments, no offence taken :-) in fact I couldn't agree with you more regarding the need to get independent and responsible, not to mention replicable results in these matters of Biodynamic Agriculture. The report on "Soil Quality and Financial Performance of Biodynamic and Conventional Farms in New Zealand" - the "Reganold Report" - published in "Science" 16th April 1993 Vol.260 - p 344 to 349, would be such an example. There are enough "Modern Myths" floating around in manic-organic circles without adding yet another. However, one thing does bother me, Maria Thun would seem to have nothing to gain by mentioning this matter, if it does perhaps have any basis in fact, since she places the "recipe" for her "Manure Concentrate" in the public domain for use by anyone, So why would she want to make it up? Perhaps someone in the germanic - organic field (any list members?) who knows her, could ask for some more details. JT From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 15:38:04 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17128 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:44:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01533; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:38:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmx06.iname.net (rmx06.iname.net [165.251.8.205]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01431 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:37:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from web08.pub01 by rmx06.iname.net (8.9.1/8.8.0) with SMTP id RAA03475 ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:42:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <380695059.947284951735.JavaMail.root@web08.pub01> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:42:31 -0500 (EST) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: RE: the trees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.19.158.11 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2975 Martha, Ferdinand's, or more properly C-Dar's, web site lists the preps they have for sale. http://www.c-dar.com. It's a shame the web site can't come close to experiencing C-Dar for yourself, to see the work being done up there. Besides the need for more trees on this earth, my other concern is the amount of good farmland being subdivided and taken up for housing. I recently moved from the Salmon River Mountains (wah) down to southwest Idaho. I have a scary feeling the pattern of development is the same here as elsewhere: new homes being built right on top of good soil down on the valley floor, instead of on the next level up around the edges of the valley. I wonder if there will have to be a line on the national budget in three or four generations to tear down buildings and break up concrete in order to reclaim soil that will surely be needed for growing food. Pam DeTray ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 16:38:09 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24009 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 14:04:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22736; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 13:58:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22561 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 13:57:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([210.55.81.226]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000110190159.IIAW3144.mta3-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:01:59 +1300 Message-ID: <387A2CEB.46F8@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:03:07 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNOW Subject: BDNOW & BDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2976 > Dear Glen, > > I believe it is obvious you are on a parallel (if different) track to my > own. It makes excellent sense. To make enough preps to cover the earth is > too big a task, and one form or another of potentized preps is really the > only option. It is certainly a start. Presumably those with blinders firmly in place are no > mathematicians. I'm not the astrologer you are (though I am one) but I can > see clearly that in the mathematics of astrology you should come into > contact with enough math to realize that the making and direct application > of the preps is not going to cover the earth short of virtually every farm > adopting BD and making preps and treating land outward from there. How > likely is that? Not very Quite frankly the idea of doing the job completely by the > orthodox methods of stirring and spraying these quantities of horn manure, > horn silica, etc. seems to me a fatuous idea. I gave up going that way > about 1985 or '86. I agree, even potentised preps have their limtiations, ie they need to be sprayed. > > Anyway, what can I do to help? Which is why I really like your cosmic pipe. I realise this has limitations too ie the expertise to run it but I do see it solves all the application and prep sourcing problems once one can drive the monster. Like most things a mutli pronged approach is probably best, all hands on deck and all that. cheers Glen A > > Best, > Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 18:10:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02809 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:10:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17441; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:03:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15222 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:45:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([203.96.109.170]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000110225733.UDND6460852.mta1-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:57:33 +1300 Message-ID: <387A6252.7B82@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:50:59 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Lievegoed References: <20000110182258.24107.qmail@www0d.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2977 cramer gefren wrote: > > There were a number of references in the archives to a Lievegoed pamphlet. I > am wondering which publication this is (I believe it was in the Calcium/Silica > discussion). Tri-Fold Books, a Canadian supplier of anthroposophical books, > has a number of books by Lievegoed. "The working pof the planets in the life processes of Man and Earth" Lievegeod 1951 > > Also, the Agriculture course intro recommends that one have read Steiner's > Theosophy and Occult Science before delving into Agriculture. (I already have > How to Know Higher Worlds.) My question is why not start with one of Steiner's > books on Anthroposophy? Any recommendations? I can't afford to buy many > books at once. > > Nancy Geffken Occult Science is a good all rounder for RS picture of creation and the spiritual bodies relationship. First few chapters in particular. Glen A. > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 18:10:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02808 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:10:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17551; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:04:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15331 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:46:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([203.96.109.170]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000110225904.UDWD6460852.mta1-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:59:04 +1300 Message-ID: <387A62AE.21D5@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:52:30 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNOW Subject: GE study Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2978 01/12/99 UK: INSECTICIDE FROM GM CORN SEEPS INTO SOIL - STUDY. By Patricia Reaney LONDON, Dec 1 (Reuters) - American scientists said on Wednesday they had uncovered what could be either a potential hazard, or benefit, of genetically modified corn. Dr Guenther Stotzky and researchers at New York University have shown that BT corn, the seed variety which is resistant to corn borer pests, releases an insecticide through its roots into the soil. The toxin remains in the soil as it is not easily broken down. It retains its insecticide properties which could help to control pests or promote insects resistant to the pesticide - the scientists aren't sure which. "Further investigations will be necessary to shed light on what might happen underground," Stotzky and his colleagues said in a report in the science journal Nature. Their work is the first to show that the toxin from the genetically-engineered BT corn can seep into the soil. Stotzky said so far there was little evidence that GM technology was potentially harmful but the discovery would add to the confusion about the safety of GM crops. About 15 million acres of BT corn were planted in the United States in 1998, which represents about 20 percent of the total acreage of corn. "There is a potential hazard that it (the toxin) builds up and could enhance the selection of resistant target organisms and could possibly effect non-target organisms," Stotzky said in a telephone interview. "Theoretically it could affect any organism that is susceptible to the toxin." The BT corn contains the genes that allow it to produce the insecticide. The amount of it in the plant is minimal so the hazard to people eating it is essentially non-existent, he said. But Stotzky called for more studies to determine the impact of the toxin's build-up in the soil on insects and other organisms. "Those studies need to be done. They should have been done a long time ago before the regulatory agencies allowed the release of these plants," he added. (C) Reuters Limited 1999. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 18:52:11 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03696 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:52:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21922; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:46:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21595 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:42:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d157.infoserve.net [199.175.157.157]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id PAA13660 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:51:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001c01bf5bc5$e8717da0$9d9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: BT corn and non-target kills Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:53:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF5B82.D845EA80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2979 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF5B82.D845EA80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If the Bt toxins really stays soil bound for any length of time, = lepidopteran soil larvae and papae would be at risk; both the = beneficials and pests alike. Michael ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF5B82.D845EA80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  If the Bt toxins really stays = soil bound=20 for any length of time, lepidopteran soil larvae and papae would be at = risk;=20 both the beneficials and pests alike. Michael
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF5B82.D845EA80-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 19:16:30 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03979 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:16:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA23868; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:10:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from cobalt3-fe.global.net.uk (cobalt3-fe.global.net.uk [195.147.250.163]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA23597 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:07:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc3s03a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.227.196] helo=compaq) by cobalt3-fe.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 127RHK-0001f1-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:57:43 +0000 Message-ID: <387A7134.6B85@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 23:54:28 +0000 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2980 JLacome@aol.com wrote: > > Does anyone know what a large amount of sorrel or shamrock (oxalis) growing > in my soil is indicative of? very shaded both sorrel and oxalis oregana are plants that grow in full shade.could this be your problem? Rex Tyler ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 19:30:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04147 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:30:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25115; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:24:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24716 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:20:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.106.alltel.net [166.102.66.106]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA27100 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:25:09 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:23:28 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2981 Guillermo writes: >I have tasted a slice of your corn bread, a slice of your dilled cukes and >a clove of your garlic. I have to admit they were really good, and I >congratulated you, but that is not IMO a complete way to test things for >the general adoption of a given methodology (it is just a part of the >testing). > > According to what you said; you stopped spraying the preps in 1998, and >you are relying on the field broadcaster alone. It is not like you are >using those developments on top of traditional BD, but it seems that you >are using them instead of traditional BD. So is your farm Biodynamic ?, >well that is now subjective, Demeter says no, you say yes, who is right ?, >If I were interested in the conflict, how could I decide ?, based on what >info ?. > >I hope you do not take this email personally, I am just using you as an >example, but would like to discuss things with a general perspective. Dear Guillermo, Consider this. My first chemistry professor, who had an absolutely brilliant intellect, started us chemistry majors out with studying chemical analysis. At the beginning of our second class meeting he said, "You have two of the best methods of chemical analysis THAT YOU CARRY AROUND WITH YOU AT ALL TIMES. Taste and smell." Obviously he felt this was important knowledge or he would never have given it such emphasis. As far as I'm concerned everyone who tries my food is equiped, personally, with the means of determining whether it is biodynamic or not. Another thing. I want to recommend that you read Steiner's key work THE PHILOSOPHY OF FREEDOM. I warn you that I think it is written all backwards and was dry, juiceless, not any fun to read. However, this philosophy was key to his entire world view, and key to his development of biodynamics. In this, his key masterwork, Steiner reviews all manner of philosophers and argues their views up one side and down the other, utterly demolishing this idea of a dual, subjective/objective view of reality. It goes back to the luciferic/ahrimanic duality that is overcome through the rehabilitation of the Christ within. When in and of our selves we overcome our kneejerk automaticities, get in touch with our power, straighten out our thinking and integrate our personality--and keep it that way--then we come to experience reality as a unitary experience. Take my word for it this is enabling, sometimes fabulously enabling. There is no duality of objective/subjective reality. You don't see the four-leaf clovers until you learn to see them. The concept must exist in your mind before the percept is accessible. I have all kinds of people tell me they aren't clairvoyant, don't remember their past lives, etc. I'm sorry, but they ARE capable of clairvoyance, capable of remembering their past lives, etc. I lectured on this subject at my last conference, and if I can find the time I'll transcribe that talk and put it into article form. All someone needs to do to realize they are clairvoyant, remember past lives, astral travel outside their physical bodies and a lot more besides is they have to shed their kneejerk reactions, empower their wills, unlock the essences of their thinking and integrate their egos so they link their thoughts and actions together. And they need to eat food of the best biodynamic quality to maintain this clarity, this unobstructedness of character. Rudolf Steiner was an absolute genius. In a lifetime of living his PHILOSOPHY OF FREEDOM he piled on one insight and masterwork on top of another until it boggled a lot of peoples' minds. But, he was a human being, not a Deity. There is so much of this business of putting him on a pedestal and assuming his accomplishments were superhuman. That is a full sized crock of you-know-what. Steiner was a human being who revolutionized his life by way of his PHILOSOPHY OF FREEDOM. He wrote it all down, and you can read it--but be forewarned that probably nothing he ever wrote was more pedantic or obscure. He makes you really work for this one. Anyway, think about why he dropped the term Theosophy and coined the term Anthroposophy. Didn't he want to make it plain that this was accessible to mankind, to all of us? Human seekers of true wisdom everywhere could be called anthroposophists. Many existed before the name was ever coined. There is no question in my mind that Jack Horner, who I mention in my book and mentioned a few posts ago, was an anthroposophist by another name. I, one of Jack's students, was an anthroposophist before I ever heard of the term. Some of the most anthroposophical people I know do not use the term anthroposophy. And I don't have to use the terms Ahriman, Lucifer and Christ to talk about the everyday human realities these terms relate to. Demonic possession? Let me tell you, we sometimes referred the programs people give their power away to as demon circuits and the like before I ever heard of this Ahriman/Lucifer thing. With Ahriman, the denizen of substantiality, Lucifer the fallen spirit we have this objective/subjective duality, which, I'm telling you, we need to get over. You seem to be saying it is a subjective reality that my corn, pickles and garlic, which you tasted, were really good. Well, I'm saying there is no subjective/objective duality to it. Those things were really good no matter how you look at it. If you're up to it struggle through THE PHILOSOPHY OF FREEDOM and I think you may see what I mean. I find it fascinating that you would put more stock in someone's paper certificate than you would in your own taste buds and olefactory sense. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 19:30:48 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04158 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:30:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25164; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:24:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24718 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:20:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.106.alltel.net [166.102.66.106]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA26837 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:25:04 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <004401bf5b88$563ecf60$21ca2cc3@m00q6c00> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:40:12 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Mt Everest, for crying out loud ! Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2982 >> You refer to the synchronicity of this list: I notice that >>Guillermo is suggesting, sarcastically, almost what I was enquiring about >>seriously (a broadcaster on Everest). >> >> Best wishes, Tony N-S > >Hey Tony: > >I am not suggesting anything of the sort, I am still asking >(sarcastically), what would be the specific strategy of the ABA to cover >the Earth with preps ?. > >Hugh IMO has not responded with an strategy, but has just mentioned that >people should be involved (that is a new one!) and that it can not be done >with the traditional spraying but that we will need to use his field >broadcasters. > >Just for the record > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > You Guys! The strategy posting is a long one and I haven't posted it yet. Greg wrote it and I'm going over it. Keep your pants on! Rest assured it DOES involve the traditional spraying, which needs to be done more effectively, however. And field broadcasters, and burying preps in strategic locations, and radionic treatment at a distance and probably some other methods we haven't heard about yet. And it is key, key to get people--a whole lot more of them--involved. I'm working up an article on the Evolution of Biodynamics and Rain for the ABA journal, which will be out soon. Then I'm back to working on a three part article for BIODYNAMICS with footnotes and bibliography. I've got that one in outline and partially written but I've got to see my contribution to the ABA journal gets done first. You can read about the evolution of biodynamics and rain if you want by subscribing, joining the ABA. I guess Greg should post the details on that right away because you probably don't want to miss the first issue, do you? What's wrong with belonging to both biodynamic organizations? Seems like win/win to me. You'll get your strategy, but not today. I've been milking and hauling compost all day so far. Maybe you think all I have to do is sit at this keyboard? Wrong. Yesterday it was cheese and butter day, and visitor day for some unknown reason. People coming by all day. It's hard to find time to write unless I stay up all night when everyone else is asleep. Sheesh! Best, Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 19:30:56 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04166 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:30:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25225; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:25:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24717 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:20:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.106.alltel.net [166.102.66.106]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA26979 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:25:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000110085330.0096a180@mail.teleport.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 14:23:10 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF: Dealing w/ tree roots and septic pipes Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2983 Dave Robison writes: >I dont agree with Hugh, I think copper is dangerous. > >Copper ions are well known as a plant poison, copper sulfate is often used. >Even small amounts of copper ion are poisionous to algae. So I can imagine >that they poison tree roots. But copper ion, in salt form, are different >from copper ores that are insoluable crystals. So I dont know if the deep >earth crystal discussion fits. Dear Dave, I think if you read my post carefully I did not say copper was harmless or anything of the sort. In fact, I have personally experienced copper poisoning (as well as arsenic poisoning and a few other baddies). However, in a septic system it might not be as bad as some things and probably wouldn't cause significant surface contamination or contamination of groundwater. What it does to bacteria and trees is another matter, and you're right, of course. Caution is a sterling idea. Best, Hugh > >Obviously if you use a plant poison, some plants (presumably the trees) >will be weakened. Whether is affects the surounding biosphere, I couldnt say. > >Realize that the functioning of your septic tank depends on bacterial >action to break down wastes. You do not want to risk poisoning off your >microbial life. In fact, septic tank dealers sell microbial starter >cultures. The bacteria are tough but they can be damaged by houshold >chemicals (borax?, solvents), not to mention pesticides. > >>With copper you have something that tends to work downward through the >>water table into geological basin formations and crystalize at some depth. >>Remember how Steiner says this crystalizing force is strongest in mid >>winter and is stronger the deeper you go into the earth. Well the formation >>of copper ore deposits within the earth are good examples of what Steiner >>is talking about. So I wouldn't worry TOO much about copper as it tends to >>work downward and crystalize in the depths. > > >>If your septic tanks are >>contaminating your drinking water already > >then you have another kind of problem. > > > > > >==================== >David Robison >Stellar Processes >1033 SW Yamhill Suite 405 >Portland, OR 97205 >(503) 827-8336 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 19:31:13 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04174 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:31:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25294; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:25:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24739 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:20:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.106.alltel.net [166.102.66.106]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA27622 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:25:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:11:39 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: internships/summer camp Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2984 Bruce, It's really very encouraging to see you posting this sort of thing to the list. I'm working on your article, but it will have to be run in parts. When I've got a draft I'll send it to you for comment and suggestions. Rest assured that I'll do my best to do things your way. For instance, I'll have a few footnotes and some bibliography, since that is the style of your publication. I'm not in this to stir shit, you know. I'm in this to make biodynamic agriculture accessible to the public. Anything you can think of to improve my writing in that regard, please tell me. I'm sure to listen. Hugh Lovel >Jobseekers and summer campers: >Here are the most recent job requests (and one summer camp listing) I've >received. Allan asked to have them posted here; you'll also find the >complete list at http://www.biodynamics.com/internship.html. Take care. >Bruce > >New York CSA Seeks Farm Help >We are hiring two energetic field workers and a CSA distribution/farmers' >market manager. The pay is $150 plus per week depending on experience and >performance. Housing, with shared bathroom, shower and kitchen, is >provided. Workers' compensation and other legal benefits are paid. For more >information and to set up an interview, or to arrange for a farm visit, >please contact Stewart or Deb Ritchie, Buffalo Organics, 1821 Billington >Road, East Aurora, NY 14052; 716-655-5625; e-mail: buffalocsa@hotmail.com > >Farm Camp Counselors Wanted >The Hawthorne Valley Farm Summer Camp Program is looking for counselors for >its 2000 summer season which runs from June 19 to August 13. This would be >a fine opportunity for anyone wanting to combine camp counselor work with a >farm, garden, and nature experience on an established biodynamic farm. >There are group counselor positions working with campers 9-15 years old as >well as lifeguard/beachfront positions available. We offer room and board >plus a salary. For information and an application write to: Summer At >Hawthorne Valley Farm Camp, 327 CR 21 C, Ghent, NY 12075; (518) 672-4790; >fax: (518) 672-7608; e-mail: vsp@taconic.net; www.camppage.com/hawthorne > >Maine Biodynamic Farm Needs Interns >Wayback Farm, a 110-acre biodynamic/organic farm with vegetable and >perennial gardens, pasture, meadow, and woods, is seeking interns for the >2000 planting season; longer-term journeyperson positions are also >available. We have a twenty member CSA in its ninth year. Interns may work >with our cows, oxen, work horse and small scale production machinery. Our >activities include cider pressing, maple syrup production, bean and grain >production, milk processing, solar power usage, and sawmill operations. >This year's projects will include the construction of a post and beam >processing kitchen and wind-powered irrigation. For information and an >application, please contact Paul Bernackey and Tracey Young, Wayback Farm, >Box 144, Lincolnville Road, Belmont, ME 04952 > >June - August, 2000: Summer Camp at Hawthorne Valley Biodynamic Farm >Children and teens ages nine to fifteen come to Hawthorne Valley Farm to >stay on a working, diversified, Demeter farm and take part in barn >cleaning, weeding in the large market garden, animal feeding, loading hay >bales, egg collecting, and, whenever they can, bringing a newborn calf in >from the hillside pastures, along with other farm activities. Experienced >staff, organic/biodynamic vegetarian food prepared from scratch, and many >traditional camp activities including music, swimming, hiking, and riding, >all help make an enjoyable and wholesome experience. Two and four week >programs available. Camps operate between June 25 and August 12. For a >brochure, contact Summer at Hawthorne Valley Farm Camp, 327 CR 21 C, Ghent, >NY 12075; (518)672-4790; fax: (518)672-7608; e-mail: vsp@taconic.net; >www.camppage.com/hawthorne From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 19:38:04 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00404 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:44:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA15752; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:39:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15648 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:38:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.27.alltel.net [166.102.66.27]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id QAA08278 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 16:43:02 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:49:59 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF: Dealing w/ tree roots and septic pipes Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2985 >Here at Claymont there are several older homes that are having >repeated problems with tree roots clogging septic drains (drains are >both clay and poly pipe) There's never much cash here, so visits from >the 'rooter man' are not really practical. One fellow here has >recommended pouring COPPER down the drains regularly to kill the tree >roots back. This doesn't seem very prudent to me, but I've come to >hate erroring on the side of caution at the edge of >community-environmentalism-economics. (I encourage caution, I just >don't want to buy pass a solution because my caution was unfounded.) > >Any suggestions on the copper or better solution w.b. appreciated. > >Thanks -Allan >-- Allan, I believe there are a variety of methods in use by people who do this sort of work professionally. Presumably some methods might poison the soil or kill the trees. Of course there is also the possibility of poisoning the water table. With copper you have something that tends to work downward through the water table into geological basin formations and crystalize at some depth. Remember how Steiner says this crystalizing force is strongest in mid winter and is stronger the deeper you go into the earth. Well the formation of copper ore deposits within the earth are good examples of what Steiner is talking about. So I wouldn't worry TOO much about copper as it tends to work downward and crystalize in the depths. If your septic tanks are contaminating your drinking water already maybe you should pour something really noticeable like copper into the septic tanks and find out for sure anyway. And I doubt if copper would work to the surface unless your drain lines are already errupting because of the clogging. But, really, you should ask several "experts" who do this sort of thing for a living. You might find out something. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 20:23:12 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05074 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:23:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA29482; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29190 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:12:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.238] (du-148-233-78-238.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO500FJ2CICX1@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:08:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:10:41 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: weeds In-reply-to: <387A7134.6B85@globalnet.co.uk> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id UAA29192 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2986 >JLacome@aol.com wrote: >> >> Does anyone know what a large amount of sorrel or shamrock (oxalis) growing >> in my soil is indicative of? >very shaded both sorrel and oxalis oregana are plants that grow in full >shade.could this be your problem? > Dear "JLacome": >From E. Pfeiffer: "Weeds and what they Tell" (avail from BDA) ISBN 0-938250-04-3 The Sorrels belong to a group of weeds living in acid soils and indicating an increase in acidity....."The acid loving groups are indeed our best "guards" for they tell us exactly when changes begin in our soil. Acidity in soil increases with lack of air, standing water in the surface layer, cultivating of too wet a soil, insufficient cultivation, insufficient drainage, one-sided cultivation, futhermore wrong kind of fertilizers, for instance excess of acid fertilizers, increasing sheet erosion, and, most important of all, loss of humus. On pastures will also appear telt-like formations of root and mosses. Even when natural limestone is underneath we frequently find acid-loving weeds, because the top layer of the soil has been de-limed through one sided cultivation and loss of humus or escessive use of acid fertilizer. This is the case when grain repeats itself too frequently in a crop rotation. Long rest in pasture, alfalfa and clover is then required". "Where there are Docks and Sorrels on a farm we would try to improve the soil by reducing the acidity by breaking the hard pan, through frequent and deep cultivation and proper aeration of the soil with a sub-soiler or a spring tooth harrow.........." This are Pfiffer's ideas and they are probably a bit outdated, the pamphlet I am refering to was written in the 1950's, please see what corresponds to your situation and then ask the list on how to solve the specific problem. For instance, I would not use "frequent and deep cultivation" but instead Daikon and/or a gentle and once a year keyline subsoiling at increasing depths for breaking hard pan. As to the shade, I grow sorrel (Rumex acetosa) as a salad green and it likes it from light shade to full sun, provided it has enough water and space. Btw I have heard that sorrel has some level of toxicity in humans, do anyone know about it ? I also have heard that it has anti-cancer properties ???? In any case I love it in salads ( great as a substitute for vinager or lime) and sorrel soup is just delicious. Hope this helps you. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 20:23:17 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05082 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:23:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA29524; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:17:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d08.mx.aol.com (imo-d08.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29404 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:16:32 -0500 (EST) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.e2.e2129eb0 (6539) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:21:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:21:09 EST Subject: Re: weeds To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2987 In a message dated 1/10/2000 4:15:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, cooksd@globalnet.co.uk writes: << very shaded both sorrel and oxalis oregana are plants that grow in full shade.could this be your problem? >> nope...this part of land where it is growing is on the south end, with no trees blocking the sunlight. It seems that it's acid, so I'm probably going to get some lime and see if that does it. Thanks. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 22:09:09 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06291 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:09:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA07999; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:02:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07865 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:00:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.179.alltel.net [166.102.66.179]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id VAA09438 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:05:59 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <52.523675f8.25abdc5f@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:13:10 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: OFF Fwd: Not your average brain surgeons! Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2988 Every once in a while we should have a few laughs! >Subject: Not your average brain surgeons! >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > 1. I saw a lady at work today putting a credit card into her floppy >> > drive and pulling it out very quickly. I inquired as to what she was >> > doing >> > and she said she was shopping on the internet, and they asked for a >> > credit card >> > number, so she was using the ATM "thingy." >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > 2. I worked with an individual who plugged their power strip back into >> > itself and for the life of them could not understand why their >> > computer would not turn on. >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > 3. I recently saw a distraught young lady weeping beside her car. "Do >> > you need some help?" I asked. She replied, "I knew I should have >> > replaced the battery in this remote door lock. Now I can't get into my >> > car. Do >> > you think they (pointing to a distant convenience store) would have a >> > battery >> > for this?" "Hmmm, I dunno Do you have an alarm, too?" I asked. "No, just >> > the remote 'thingy,'" she answered, handing it and the car keys to me. >As >> > I took the key and manually unlocked the door, I replied, "Why don't >you >> > drive over there and check about the batteries...it's a long walk." >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > 4. Tech Support: "What does the screen say now..." >> > Person: "It says, 'Hit ENTER when ready'." >> > Tech Support: "Well?" >> > Person: "How do I know when it's ready?" >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > 5. Several years ago, we had an intern who was none too swift. One >day >> > he was typing and turned to a secretary and said, "I'm almost out of >> > typing paper. >> > "What do I do?" "Just use copier machine paper," she told him. With >> > that, the intern took his last remaining blank piece of paper, put it on >> > the photocopier and proceeded to make five blank copies. >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > 6. One of our servers crashed. I was watching our new system >> > administrator trying to restore it. He inserted a CD and needed to type >a >> > path >> > name to a directory named "i386." He started to type it and paused, >> > asking me >> > "Where's the key for that line thing?" I asked what he was >> > talking about, and he said >> > "You know, that one that looks like an upside down exclamation >> > mark." I replied, "You mean the letter "i"?" and he said, "Yeah, that's >> > it!" >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > 7. I was in a car dealership a while ago when a large new motor home >> > was towed into the garage. The front of the vehicle was in dire need >> > of repair and the whole thing generally looked like an extra in >> > "Twister." I >> > asked the manager what had happened. He told me that the driver had set >> > the cruise control, then went in back to make a sandwich. >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > 8. When my husband and I arrived at an automobile dealership to pick >> > up our car, we were told that the key had been accidentally locked in >it. >> > We went to the service department and found a mechanic working >> > feverishly to unlock the driver's side door. As I watched from the >> > passenger's side, I >> > instinctively tried the door handle and discovered it was open. "Hey," >I >> > announced to >> > the technician, "It's open!" "I know," answered the young man. "I >already >> > got that side." >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > 9. 1st Person: "Do you know anything about this fax machine?" >> > >> > 2nd Person: "A little. What's wrong?" >> > >> > 1st Person: "Well, I sent a fax, and the recipient called back to >> > say all she received was a cover sheet and a blank page. >> > I tried it again, and the same thing happened. >> > >> > 2nd Person: "How did you load the sheet?" >> > >> > 1st Person: "It's a pretty sensitive memo, and I didn't want anyone >else >> > to read it by accident, so I folded it so only the recipient would open >> > it >> > and read it." From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 22:13:19 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06330 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:13:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA08375; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:07:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.41]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07979 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:02:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.238] (du-148-233-78-39.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO5007SRHYJES@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:06:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:59:52 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id WAA07980 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2989 >Guillermo writes: > >>I have tasted a slice of your corn bread, a slice of your dilled cukes and >>a clove of your garlic. I have to admit they were really good, and I >>congratulated you, but that is not IMO a complete way to test things for >>the general adoption of a given methodology (it is just a part of the >>testing). >> >> According to what you said; you stopped spraying the preps in 1998, and >>you are relying on the field broadcaster alone. It is not like you are >>using those developments on top of traditional BD, but it seems that you >>are using them instead of traditional BD. So is your farm Biodynamic ?, >>well that is now subjective, Demeter says no, you say yes, who is right ?, >>If I were interested in the conflict, how could I decide ?, based on what >>info ?. >> >>I hope you do not take this email personally, I am just using you as an >>example, but would like to discuss things with a general perspective. > > >Dear Guillermo, > >Consider this. My first chemistry professor, who had an absolutely >brilliant intellect, started us chemistry majors out with studying chemical >analysis. At the beginning of our second class meeting he said, "You have >two of the best methods of chemical analysis THAT YOU CARRY AROUND WITH YOU >AT ALL TIMES. Taste and smell." > >Obviously he felt this was important knowledge or he would never have given >it such emphasis. As far as I'm concerned everyone who tries my food is >equiped, personally, with the means of determining whether it is biodynamic >or not. > >Another thing. I want to recommend that you read Steiner's key work THE >PHILOSOPHY OF FREEDOM. I warn you that I think it is written all backwards >and was dry, juiceless, not any fun to read. However, this philosophy was >key to his entire world view, and key to his development of biodynamics. In >this, his key masterwork, Steiner reviews all manner of philosophers and >argues their views up one side and down the other, utterly demolishing this >idea of a dual, subjective/objective view of reality. It goes back to the >luciferic/ahrimanic duality that is overcome through the rehabilitation of >the Christ within. When in and of our selves we overcome our kneejerk >automaticities, get in touch with our power, straighten out our thinking >and integrate our personality--and keep it that way--then we come to >experience reality as a unitary experience. Take my word for it this is >enabling, sometimes fabulously enabling. There is no duality of >objective/subjective reality. You don't see the four-leaf clovers until you >learn to see them. The concept must exist in your mind before the percept >is accessible. > >I have all kinds of people tell me they aren't clairvoyant, don't remember >their past lives, etc. I'm sorry, but they ARE capable of clairvoyance, >capable of remembering their past lives, etc. I lectured on this subject at >my last conference, and if I can find the time I'll transcribe that talk >and put it into article form. All someone needs to do to realize they are >clairvoyant, remember past lives, astral travel outside their physical >bodies and a lot more besides is they have to shed their kneejerk >reactions, empower their wills, unlock the essences of their thinking and >integrate their egos so they link their thoughts and actions together. And >they need to eat food of the best biodynamic quality to maintain this >clarity, this unobstructedness of character. > >Rudolf Steiner was an absolute genius. In a lifetime of living his >PHILOSOPHY OF FREEDOM he piled on one insight and masterwork on top of >another until it boggled a lot of peoples' minds. But, he was a human >being, not a Deity. There is so much of this business of putting him on a >pedestal and assuming his accomplishments were superhuman. That is a full >sized crock of you-know-what. Steiner was a human being who revolutionized >his life by way of his PHILOSOPHY OF FREEDOM. He wrote it all down, and you >can read it--but be forewarned that probably nothing he ever wrote was more >pedantic or obscure. He makes you really work for this one. > >Anyway, think about why he dropped the term Theosophy and coined the term >Anthroposophy. Didn't he want to make it plain that this was accessible to >mankind, to all of us? Human seekers of true wisdom everywhere could be >called anthroposophists. Many existed before the name was ever coined. >There is no question in my mind that Jack Horner, who I mention in my book >and mentioned a few posts ago, was an anthroposophist by another name. I, >one of Jack's students, was an anthroposophist before I ever heard of the >term. Some of the most anthroposophical people I know do not use the term >anthroposophy. > >And I don't have to use the terms Ahriman, Lucifer and Christ to talk about >the everyday human realities these terms relate to. Demonic possession? Let >me tell you, we sometimes referred the programs people give their power >away to as demon circuits and the like before I ever heard of this >Ahriman/Lucifer thing. With Ahriman, the denizen of substantiality, Lucifer >the fallen spirit we have this objective/subjective duality, which, I'm >telling you, we need to get over. > >You seem to be saying it is a subjective reality that my corn, pickles and >garlic, which you tasted, were really good. Well, I'm saying there is no >subjective/objective duality to it. Those things were really good no matter >how you look at it. If you're up to it struggle through THE PHILOSOPHY OF >FREEDOM and I think you may see what I mean. I find it fascinating that you >would put more stock in someone's paper certificate than you would in your >own taste buds and olefactory sense. > >Best, >Hugh Lovel My Dear Hugh: Thanks for recommending The Philosophy of Freedom, thanks for answering selectively to my questions and thanks for twisting my words. a) I can not say that I have studied the whole book, but it is indeed one of Steiner's master works. BTW for those interested there is a full version of the Seventh English edition:Translated from the German, and with an Introduction by Michael Wilson (also know as the Philosophy of Spiritual Activity) published in the web and avail for downloading (about half MB, but sorry I do not have the URL). b) I agree with what you are saying, how could I avoid it, I do believe in independent thinking and independent everything. BUT, you haven't answer my questions on how to keep Biodynamics unpolluted and free from obscure interests, free from bogus claims and free from manipulations ?, that is in case the term is to be placed on public domain, and nobody will ever see that is used in a fashion true to its origins. Granted we can all use our physical senses to select our food, is that how you will convince the masses on choosing to grow and eat Biodinamically ? (You'll need a lot of samples, and as things are today, you will have a hard time competing with Coke, Dominos and Fritos, btw) Granted we can all develop clairvoyance and supersensible senses, but if we all do, BD will be no longer needed, nor will Steiner's teachings, nor will lawsuits. My questions refer to the conditions that we have today, how will you make BD avail to the general population now and how will you keep it from commercialism and away from charlatans now ?. c) When did I say that I rather have a certificate than use my own nose and tongue ?. I suspect that you are using my questions to promote your perspective of things, and that you are twisting what I am saying and questioning for your own good. In any case, I also have a lot of work to do and I feel our exchange on this topic has exhausted whatever fruitfulness it had. So that I thank you for the opportunity and invite you to move over, I will. Best Friend Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 22:13:33 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06338 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:13:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA08442; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.41]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07988 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:02:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.238] (du-148-233-78-39.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO5007SRHYJES@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:06:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:07:16 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Mt Everest, for crying out loud ! In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <004401bf5b88$563ecf60$21ca2cc3@m00q6c00> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2990 >>> You refer to the synchronicity of this list: I notice that >>>Guillermo is suggesting, sarcastically, almost what I was enquiring about >>>seriously (a broadcaster on Everest). >>> >>> Best wishes, Tony N-S >> >>Hey Tony: >> >>I am not suggesting anything of the sort, I am still asking >>(sarcastically), what would be the specific strategy of the ABA to cover >>the Earth with preps ?. >> >>Hugh IMO has not responded with an strategy, but has just mentioned that >>people should be involved (that is a new one!) and that it can not be done >>with the traditional spraying but that we will need to use his field >>broadcasters. >> >>Just for the record >> >>Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >>Comala, Colima, MEXICO >> > >You Guys! > >The strategy posting is a long one and I haven't posted it yet. Greg wrote >it and I'm going over it. Keep your pants on! Rest assured it DOES involve >the traditional spraying, which needs to be done more effectively, however. >And field broadcasters, and burying preps in strategic locations, and >radionic treatment at a distance and probably some other methods we haven't >heard about yet. And it is key, key to get people--a whole lot more of >them--involved. > >I'm working up an article on the Evolution of Biodynamics and Rain for the >ABA journal, which will be out soon. Then I'm back to working on a three >part article for BIODYNAMICS with footnotes and bibliography. I've got that >one in outline and partially written but I've got to see my contribution to >the ABA journal gets done first. You can read about the evolution of >biodynamics and rain if you want by subscribing, joining the ABA. I guess >Greg should post the details on that right away because you probably don't >want to miss the first issue, do you? What's wrong with belonging to both >biodynamic organizations? Seems like win/win to me. > >You'll get your strategy, but not today. I've been milking and hauling >compost all day so far. Maybe you think all I have to do is sit at this >keyboard? Wrong. Yesterday it was cheese and butter day, and visitor day >for some unknown reason. People coming by all day. It's hard to find time >to write unless I stay up all night when everyone else is asleep. Sheesh! > >Best, >Hugh Thanks I will be looking forward to see Greg's strategy and please, if you can extend the copyright, also publish the ABA article on this list, remember I will not be subscribing to the ABA journal anytime soon. Best Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 23:38:00 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13543 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:32:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15637; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:16:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from enif.involved.com ([206.136.47.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04863 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 13:35:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from SyGate ([206.136.47.50]) by enif.involved.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61049U4500L450S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:37:35 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000107104008.009c7100@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 10:40:08 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA In-Reply-To: <003c01bf5930$943d2280$8c0d2cc3@m00q6c00> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2991 At 04:56 PM 1/7/00 -0000, Tony wrote: > Is it naive of me to ask exactly what's wrong with nuclear energy, >properly engineered and safely supervised, other than the problem of >long-term waste ? Thats exactly the problem -- one for which there is no solution. It is potentially feasible to design reactors that would be fail-safe (altho the current designs arent) but fission is just too dirty. The rad pollution is too difficult to contain and we dont really understand all the implications of having it loose in the biosphere. How can we expect to isolate the waste for 500,000 years when no man-made structure comes close to that longevity. Incidentally, I dont think that fusion power will be any better. Our biosystem evolved in response to a certain level of dynamic flux (sunlight) passing thru the medium. The energy released from nuclear reactions is much more intense. It looks attractive to engineers becasue theres a lot of energy all in one place with only modest consumption of resources. Seems like a good deal. But the energy level (negentropy) is just out of scale compared to our environmental processes. Fundamentially it is too difficult to 'capture' that energy and reduce it down to a lower level more in scale with our processes. The problem of rad waste is just the symptom of this more fundamental difficulty. To say that sunlight is nuclear energy is incorect. Say it originates as nuclear energy, so what? It reaches us as primarily light waves. No nasty isotopes. 93 million miles away form the nearest elementary school is the right distance. We know that renewable sources dont have these problems. They have smaller problems, ones more consistent with our scale of life processes. Unfortunate that some people oppose any change. > I, too, think that you're being a bit hard on Einstein. I agree, and the other responses seem to as well. ==================== David Robison Stellar Processes 1033 SW Yamhill Suite 405 Portland, OR 97205 (503) 827-8336 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 10 23:59:06 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08148 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 23:59:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA18842; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 23:52:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18607 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 23:49:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.125.alltel.net [166.102.66.125]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id WAA13768 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:54:59 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 00:02:09 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id XAA18614 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2992 Guillermo writes: > >My Dear Hugh: > >Thanks for recommending The Philosophy of Freedom, thanks for answering >selectively to my questions and thanks for twisting my words. I did? Well, probably. Somewhere. Can't say I was aware of it, and I don't think I meant to. > >a) I can not say that I have studied the whole book, but it is indeed one >of Steiner's master works. BTW for those interested there is a full >version of the Seventh English edition:Translated from the German, and >with an Introduction >by Michael Wilson (also know as the Philosophy of Spiritual Activity) >published in the web and avail for downloading (about half MB, but sorry I >do not have the URL). I was aware a new translation existed, but I'm an oldster who way back read the old translation--which has long since departed from my library along with many other rare books. I've found in general that there are a lot of book thieves--I don't have a better word--in this world, and if my experience with thieves is any indication, easy obtained, poorly maintained. > >b) I agree with what you are saying, how could I avoid it, I do believe in >independent thinking and independent everything. BUT, you haven't answer >my questions on how to keep Biodynamics unpolluted and free from obscure >interests, free from bogus claims and free from manipulations ?, that is >in case the term is to be placed on public domain, and nobody will ever >see that is used in a fashion true to its origins. Actually I'm very glad you bring this issue to the fore again. I'm afraid I missed it in your earlier posts even though I realize now it was there. We have, for instance, a fellow in California, Bob Something-or-other, who goes about his place with stirrings and sprayings of all sorts of likely stuff, rock powers, manures, composts, you name it. Fred Walters of ACRES, U.S.A. interviewed him and asked, "Does this mean you are biodynamic?" (referring to the biodynamic stirrings and sprayings.) Bob's response was something to the effect of, "Oh sure, I'm just not Uncle Rudy's biodynamic. Now I, of course, deplore this application of the term biodynamic, though not nearly so much as if Monsanto were to market their new "biodynamic" terminator technology. Mr. Bob Something-or-other does not have a very clear idea of what biodynamics is all about. It is unfortunate. But if you look really closely he is using a technique to--almost randomly I'm afraid--accomplish similar things to what we can do quite scientifically in our biodynamic practices. To some slight degree he actually is our kind of biodynamic farmer, and I heard the guy talk out in San Francisco because I was supposed to talk after him and he bulled his way onward and onward into fifteen minutes of my alloted one hour speaking period. This didn't exactly endear him to me, of course. I thought it typical of the wild and uncomprehending way in which he was using biodynamic techniques. But what can you say? To some extent he actually IS biodynamic and as far as I am concerned he has every right to use the term, as it is a generic term and a part of the language. And this/my attitude is consistant with what I wrote in this regard in my book way back in 1994. What we've got to do, seems to me, is to make our methods of biodynamics so successful, so accessible to the public, that people like Bob Something-or-other get people interested and then these people find out about folks like myself who give them the real inside track. Seems to me we sure are not going to get anywhere if we act like misers hoarding our gold and gobbling up everything anyone else might develop. > >Granted we can all use our physical senses to select our food, is that how >you will convince the masses on choosing to grow and eat Biodinamically ? >(You'll need a lot of samples, and as things are today, you will have a >hard time competing with Coke, Dominos and Fritos, btw) Yes, that's how I do it at my market, and I'm earning top dollar there. How did I do with you?--you can't deny you know something too, because you brought me that excellent flavored Colima sea salt. I'm very sure you appreciate fine flavor. > >Granted we can all develop clairvoyance and supersensible senses, but if >we all do, BD will be no longer needed, nor will Steiner's teachings, nor >will lawsuits. My questions refer to the conditions that we have today, >how will you make BD avail to the general population now and how will you >keep it from commercialism and away from charlatans now ?. Yes, certainly lets grant that as we all develop supersensibility we won't need BD so much anymore, but right now it is key, key, key to get BD out there, and quite frankly çommercial interests and charlatans are the least of my worries. You can't fake great flavor, for example. People have, every one of them, the means to tell. > >c) When did I say that I rather have a certificate than use my own nose >and tongue ?. I suspect that you are using my questions to promote your >perspective of things, and that you are twisting what I am saying and >questioning for your own good. Ah! That's where I twisted your words. Well for sure you did not say that. It only seemed to me to be a conceivable interpretation of what you were saying. By all means I use what you are saying as a way of further unfolding my own outlook before you and other list readers. Remember what I said about how you couldn't possibly injure my ego as it was far, far too enormous? That's because when I think of self, myself, I think of all others. My ego is really expansive. I think of myself. And what I see is so many others I cannot count them all. So no question I am using (I don't intend to twist) what you say for my own good. I have slandered you seems to me. Truly so sorry. But I'm sure there really are those folks who would prefer a certificate to using their own nose and tongue. I'm actually certain you don't fall into this category, as wittness the fact you were so tuned in to good salt that you brought me a kilo of the best from Colima. I'm just now using the last of it and wonder where I can get more because it was VERY excellent. > >In any case, I also have a lot of work to do and I feel our exchange on >this topic has exhausted whatever fruitfulness it had. So that I thank >you for the opportunity and invite you to move over, I will. > >Best Friend > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > See ya, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 04:59:59 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA12046 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:59:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA02536; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from www0w.netaddress.usa.net (www0w.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.52]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA02335 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:47:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 23073 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2000 09:53:06 -0000 Message-ID: <20000111095306.23072.qmail@www0w.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.52 by www0w for [142.176.90.156] via web-mailer(M3.3.1.96) on Tue Jan 11 09:53:06 GMT 2000 Date: 11 Jan 00 01:53:06 PST From: cramer gefren To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.3.1.96) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id EAA02336 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2993 Guillermo asked if sorrel had anti-cancer properties. It is one of the herbs in Essiac, an anti-cancer tea based on a native Indian remedy. The other ingredients are burdock roots, slippery elm and turkey rhubarb (I guess this is just plain rhubarb - "Rheum palmatum".) Nancy Geffken ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 07:56:38 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA14456 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 07:56:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA09988; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 07:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA09790 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 07:47:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-249.s249.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.249] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 1280m0-000271-00; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 07:51:44 -0500 Message-ID: <387B27B3.ED32AD05@erols.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 07:53:07 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2994 Hugh: Thought I'd weign in with another opinion about your farm being BioDynamic. Seems to me you can't just rely on taste and smell. That's what the whole Demeter standards were set up for - to create a framework beneath which a farm could call itself BioDynamic. These standards were created by Rudolf Steiner, and from what I've read so far (being relatively new to all of this), are pretty specific (horn manure, horn silica, compost treatments, horsetail). So - no -under those guidelines if you're not using the Preps, you simply can't call your farm BioDynamic. Think about this. Suppose I decided to create my own standards for organic growing. Could I then have the state of Virginia award me Certified Organic status? The answer is - no. Organic growing standard were created to level the playing field - so that everyone had to meet some standard previously agreed upon. These sorts of standards remove subjectivity and provide objectivity. They are something to be measured against. What you propose sounds valid - and your products *do* taste good. But if you want to call the farm BioDynamic, it seems you have to have your methods approved by Demeter and entered into the certified BD canon. Onwards - Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 08:15:23 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14633 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:15:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10895; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:09:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10704 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:06:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.110] (pm3shep3-163-121.intrepid.net [209.190.163.121]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA10863 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:11:24 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 07:58:42 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2995 >We have, for instance, a fellow in California, Bob Something-or-other, who >goes about his place with stirrings and sprayings of all sorts of likely >stuff, rock powers, manures, composts, you name it. Fred Walters of ACRES, >U.S.A. interviewed him and asked, "Does this mean you are biodynamic?" >(referring to the biodynamic stirrings and sprayings.) Bob's response was >something to the effect of, "Oh sure, I'm just not Uncle Rudy's biodynamic. This must be Bob Connard, Hugh. I didn't know that ACRES had interviewed him, however. Do you think it was Connard? I'd love to get a copy of that interview if you can find it. Greg must know him and his farm, since they are located relatively closely to each other. I was out to Bob's this fall with Vinnie of Elixir and Gabriel Howearth and many others. He did give the finest exposition of a self-arrived and extremely original - - and yet right on the mark - - Biodynamics-like approach to horticulture that I could ever imagine. And his farm and gardens spoke of the effectiveness of his approach. And his FOOD! Oh, man, Hugh, you've got to go there some day!! Bob's the guy works a farm once owned by Jack London. He ferments 'good smelling earth' from the floor of his woods with molasses ('or anything else that you yourself would eat'), dilutes it and pipes it back out to his fields. He hand feeds rock flours to his plants with the same intentiveness and perception of individuality that I have when I feed the hens. On top of all this, he is a very successful commercial grower, the kind of guy who can put in 10acres for Odwalla and deliver. Man, if anyone has this interview, I'd love to get hold of it. (If it is Bob Connard, of course!!) -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 08:17:24 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14655 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11052; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10738 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:06:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.110] (pm3shep3-163-121.intrepid.net [209.190.163.121]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA10921 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:11:46 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:09:18 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2996 >We have, for instance, a fellow in California, Bob Something-or-other, who >goes about his place with stirrings and sprayings of all sorts of likely >stuff, rock powers, manures, composts, you name it. Fred Walters of ACRES, >U.S.A. interviewed him and asked, "Does this mean you are biodynamic?" >(referring to the biodynamic stirrings and sprayings.) Bob's response was >something to the effect of, "Oh sure, I'm just not Uncle Rudy's biodynamic. This must be Bob Connard (sp?), Hugh. I didn't know that ACRES had interviewed him, however. Do you think it was Connard? I'd love to get a copy of that interview if you can find it. Greg and Andrew must know him and his farm, since they are located relatively closely to each other. I was out to Bob's this fall with Vinnie of Elixir and Gabriel Howearth of Seeds of Change and many others. He did give the finest exposition of a self-arrived and extremely original - - and yet right on the mark - - Biodynamics-like approach to horticulture that I could ever imagine. And his farm and gardens spoke of the effectiveness of his approach. And his FOOD! Oh, man, Hugh, you've got to go there some day!! Bob's the guy works a farm once owned by Jack London. He ferments 'good smelling earth' from the floor of his woods with molasses ('or anything else that you yourself would eat'), dilutes it and pipes it back out to his fields. He hand feeds rock flours to his plants with the same intentionality and perception of individuality that I have when I feed the hens. On top of all this, he is a very successful commercial grower, the kind of guy who can put in 10acres of carrots for Odwalla and deliver. Man, if anyone has this interview, I'd love to get hold of it. (If it is Bob Connard, of course!!) -Allan PPS Reading your posting in full finally, I see that, yes, this is the Bob that you are talking about. I'll have to say in his defense, Hugh, that Bob Connard, like many natural farmers, is rather off balance when he is in the world out side of his own holding. He was notoriously 'off' at Bioneers that year, behaving in an 'unnerved' fashion. On his own ground, he was so 'sweet' and sharing that it was definitely touching. More to the point, both Vinnie and Angelica's Leslie proposed to him before we left his place, aroused as these Earth Mothers were by his wonderful food, his incredible hospitality, and the thrill of his cosmic vision. (This is the man who lets his fields of brocolli be 'over run' with weeds, but when you get down and look at the weeds, they are miniature calendulas and amaranths and other future salad mix greens. :-) -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 08:34:28 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14804 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:34:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11964; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA11598 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:22:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.110] (pm3shep3-163-121.intrepid.net [209.190.163.121]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA13795 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:27:53 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <387B27B3.ED32AD05@erols.com> References: <387B27B3.ED32AD05@erols.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:31:54 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2997 >What you propose sounds valid - and your products *do* taste good. But >if you want to call the farm BioDynamic, it seems you have to have your >methods approved by Demeter and entered into the certified BD canon. Robert - I submit that your definition is for calling your farm 'Demeter Certified Biodynamic' and nothing less. I call Claymont a biodynamic farm at this time and will continue to do so. HOWEVER, I do agree with your premise, and I am applying for Demeter certification in the very near future. -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 08:57:49 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA15314 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:57:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13732; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:51:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA13487 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:49:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.110] (pm3shep3-163-121.intrepid.net [209.190.163.121]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA18727 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:53:32 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:56:52 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Fwd: Healthy Farmers, Healthy Profits website. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2998 There's nothing new about the stuff on this page, but I have to admit I really admire Mr Meyer's getting this information "up here and out there" in such a friendly fashion. If you're doing any market gardening this year, I think you'll definitely want to take a look at these labor and time saving ideas. (There is also dairy information available at this site.) _Allan >X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to >owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f >X-Sender: rhmeyer1@facstaff.wisc.edu (Unverified) >Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:44:26 -0600 >To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu >From: Bob Meyer >Subject: Healthy Farmers, Healthy Profits website. >Cc: rhmeyer1@facstaff.wisc.edu >Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu >Status: U > >Hello: > >Bob Meyer here with the Healthy Farmers, Healthy Profits project at >the UW-Madison. We are funded by the National Insitute for >Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) and the National Occupational >Research Agenda (NORA). Our website has recently been updated and >we've added additional free "tip sheets" which can be downloaded, or >viewed from our site. Web address: www.bse.wisc.edu/hfhp > > > (If you plan on distributing or reprinting our tipsheets, please >send a message to me at rhmeyer1@facstaff.wisc.edu so we can >properly report to our funders.) > >The tipsheets -- ergonomic and technological changes for better >labor efficiency and profitability are: > >Small-scale vegetable growers: >-mesh bags for batch processing >-standard containers for better bulk handling >-organization of packing sheds >-narrow pallet systems for smaller farms. >-a rolling dibble marker for speedier transplanting >-using a three-wheeled seated cart to ease stooped labor >-plans for building a seated work cart > >Dairy farms: >-silage bags >-long-day lighting >-on-site calf feed preparation area >-using bottle holders to feed calves. > >More tip sheets will be added in the coming months. > >Best Regards, > >Bob Meyer >Senior Outreach Specialist >UW-Biological Systems Engineering >460 Henry Mall >Madison, WI 53706 >608-265-9451 >rhmeyer1@facstaff.wisc.edu > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 09:11:42 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15509 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:11:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14859; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:06:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14714 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:03:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-249.s249.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.249] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 1281y3-0001Rk-00; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:08:15 -0500 Message-ID: <387B39A2.BFAD913E@erols.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:09:38 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA References: <387B27B3.ED32AD05@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2999 Allan: As long as you are following the principles in the existing BD canon, I think you should be able to call your farm BioDynamic. The certification is yet another step - "Certified BioDynamic". Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 09:26:19 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15708 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:26:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15899; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:20:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from acc.haverford.edu (acc.haverford.edu [165.82.1.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15561 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:15:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [165.82.19.116] (s116.magill.haverford.edu [165.82.19.116]) by acc.haverford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23961 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:15:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:20:24 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Bruce Bumbarger Subject: more jobs/internships Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3000 Here are yesterday's job requests. Once again, you'll also find the complete list at http://www.biodynamics.com/internship.html. If somebody has the time, let me know whether these come through with any wierd formatting. I'm cutting and pasting from the Word files I use for the journal which have in turn been cut and pasted from e-mail messages. Not sure how they appear on others e-mail browsers. Take care. Bruce Angelic Organics Seeks a Field Manager Training will take place in the 2000 season with full responsibilities starting in 2001. Angelic Organics is an 800 member biodynamic Community Supported Agriculture (CSA) vegetable and herb farm located in north-central Illinois--between Chicago and Madison. We are entering our eleventh year growing organically and our eighth year as a CSA. We manage eighty acres, twenty-five of which grow the vegetables and herbs that feed over 1000 families in the Chicago area. Our on-farm community generally consists of four managers, three support staff, three to five interns, and three to five field workers Angelic Organics is entering its eighth year as an eighty-acre organic, biodynamic CSA farm, located between Chicago and Madison, in north-central Illinois. We supply 750 families in the Chicago area with vegetables grown on twenty-five acres. The field manager (with a co-manager) is responsible for all aspects of planning, growing, and harvesting the vegetables, including overseeing and maintaining machinery, managing a six to twelve member field crew and managing an intern program. Requirements: -at least two years of growing experience -experience working with and maintaining a wide range of machinery -crew leadership experience -interest in biodynamics -computer literacy -basic field Spanish (or a willingness to learn) -a minimum three year commitment This position includes $1000/month in the first training year (salary negotiable after the first year), room (an on-farm private apartment in the second year) and board. The benefits of coming to Angelic Organics: -focus on growing vegetables in a supportive environment in which other responsibilities are handled by other experienced individuals -healthy soil (half of the acreage is in cover crops every year) -access to a wide variety of equipment (tillage, cultivation, harvest, and irrigation) -established facilities (efficient greenhouse system, packing facilities, walk-in coolers, shops for machinery and wood-working, newly remodeled buildings and office space) -opportunity to interact with a variety of groups (including CSA members) who come to the farm through the CSA Learning Center (non-profit educational organization associated with the farm) -optional opportunities to work with small livestock as part of a CSA Learning Center project with Heifer Project International Review our web site at for more information about our farm. Please send or email a resume with wage history and a cover letter explaining your interest in this particular position to: CSA@AngelicOrganics.com or Angelic Organics, 1547 Rockton Road, Caledonia, IL 61011, attn: Field Manager Position. Brookfield Farm Apprenticeships Brookfield Farm is 120 acre mixed farm with twenty acres in vegetable/soft fruit production, mixed livestock production, pasture, hay, and woodland. All of the produce of the farm is grown for the Community Supported Agriculture (C.S.A.) project, which sells 400 shares on a yearly basis. The farm is managed along biodynamic lines and is economically self-sustaining. We offer apprenticeships to those people who have demonstrated an interest and shown dedication to being students and practitioners of sustainable agriculture. The apprenticeship begins April 1 and concludes the day before Thanksgiving (no partial season apprenticeships are possible). A stipend of $500 per month, housing, farm produce, weekday lunches at the farmhouse, and health insurance are provided. In addition, all apprentices may take part in the CRAFT program, which offers visits to a wide variety of organic and biodynamic farms in the Northeast for in-depth tours. There is also a wide array of resources (agricultural, social, and natural) available in the immediate area. To apply send a letter of intent and a resume to the address below. All interested applicants are encouraged to set up a time to visit and work on the farm. All hiring decisions will be made on a first come, first serve basis. Biodynamic Farmland Conservation Trust Apprenticeship Program 24 Hulst Rd Amherst, MA 01002; (413)253-7991; e-mail: bfcsa@aol.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 09:27:26 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15729 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16005; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:21:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15707 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:17:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.4] (du-148-233-78-4.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO600JJ7D74DY@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:21:07 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:24:39 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: weeds In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx (Unverified) To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3001 >nope...this part of land where it is growing is on the south end, with no >trees blocking the sunlight. It seems that it's acid, so I'm probably going >to get some lime and see if that does it. Thanks. Also from Pfeiffer's book and re Sorrel: "Some experts recommend much lime, which in itself is correct against acidity, but if drainage and aeration of the soil are not taken care of, the lime is just "sunk" in the soil and redered worthless after a couple of years. On a pasture, mowing after pasturing is essential. Where there is increase of acidity on a pasture, cattle will not graze and Sorrels and Docks will grow to seed unless frequently cut." "As the sorrels indicate more or less acid soils, their size is almost an indication of the degree of acidity" Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 09:45:25 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16272 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:45:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17442; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:39:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17263 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:37:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-249.s249.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.249] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 1282Un-0006mL-00; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:42:06 -0500 Message-ID: <387B4191.4114EB5B@erols.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:43:29 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3002 And how about thistles? We have an abundance of those here in Virginia - in fact, they're classified as an invasive weed, and in our farm plan, each of us has to include how we will eradicate this plant. What do thistles indicate? Mine grow awfully big when I don't mow! TIA, Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 09:46:42 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16298 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:46:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17568; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:40:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (popper1.vphos.net [207.102.129.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17298 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:38:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.70]) by popper1.vphos.net ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 06:43:30 -0800 Message-ID: <001901bf5c42$360a39e0$46cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <387B27B3.ED32AD05@erols.com> Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 07:42:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3003 Allan: You wrote: <> I'd be interested to hear about your thinking on this. W ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 5:31 AM Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA > >What you propose sounds valid - and your products *do* taste good. But > >if you want to call the farm BioDynamic, it seems you have to have your > >methods approved by Demeter and entered into the certified BD canon. > > Robert - > > I submit that your definition is for calling your farm 'Demeter > Certified Biodynamic' and nothing less. I call Claymont a biodynamic > farm at this time and will continue to do so. HOWEVER, I do agree > with your premise, and I am applying for Demeter certification in the > very near future. > > -Allan > > -- > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 10:33:57 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17420 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:33:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22068; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:27:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21555 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:23:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.51.alltel.net [166.102.66.51]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id JAA11700 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:28:42 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:35:55 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3004 >>We have, for instance, a fellow in California, Bob Something-or-other, who >>goes about his place with stirrings and sprayings of all sorts of likely >>stuff, rock powers, manures, composts, you name it. Fred Walters of ACRES, >>U.S.A. interviewed him and asked, "Does this mean you are biodynamic?" >>(referring to the biodynamic stirrings and sprayings.) Bob's response was >>something to the effect of, "Oh sure, I'm just not Uncle Rudy's biodynamic. > >This must be Bob Connard, Hugh. I didn't know that ACRES had >interviewed him, however. Do you think it was Connard? I'd love to >get a copy of that interview if you can find it. Connard is the guy. ACRES never published any interview so far as I know. The interview is stricktly storytelling from Fred to me. >Greg must know him >and his farm, since they are located relatively closely to each >other. I was out to Bob's this fall with Vinnie of Elixir and Gabriel >Howearth and many others. He did give the finest exposition of a >self-arrived and extremely original - - and yet right on the mark - - >Biodynamics-like approach to horticulture that I could ever imagine. >And his farm and gardens spoke of the effectiveness of his approach. >And his FOOD! Oh, man, Hugh, you've got to go there some day!! You know me and I'll say it again. The results are what counts, not the rote procedure. No doubt you can understand me not feeling humored by the guy under the circumstances out there at Bioneers in '98 when he so egregiously and thoughtlessly used up a quarter of my total speaking time. But that I can set aside. I can see what he's doing in my mind's eye, and whatever it is he's spraying on his fields is highly organized energetically. I can see the fractal patterns and the glow his sprays have and what he's doing is bound to work very similarly to some of our BD preps. If his intuition is guiding him well enough then he could easily be more biodynamic than some of the certified biodynamic farms in the world where the minimum application of preps once a year is all that is done. More power to him. Intuition is so much better than blind, unthinking adherence to rote procedure. So far as I can see we absolutely MUST let him use the word biodynamic--even encourage him to use the term, perhaps--for what he does. It makes the language richer and breaks people (and also BD adherents) out of their box-like prisons. I'm actually encouraged by your report on how good his food tastes, because as far as I'm concerned that's my favorite test of whether something is biodynamic or not. Documentation of adherence to rote procedure simply does not give me the feeling that something is biodynamic. I'm not in any doubt personally that if Bob Connard knew how to use the BD preps and integrated them into his program--especially the horn clay--that he would do much better than he presently does. My article on The Evolution of Biodynamics and Rain (an exclusive for the ABA journal) should help a lot more people see just how powerful these biodynamic preps are and how much can be done with them. Most folks, even most long time BD practitioners, haven't got much of a clue. (Greg. When are you going to post how to join the ABA and get it's journal?) > >Bob's the guy works a farm once owned by Jack London. He ferments >'good smelling earth' from the floor of his woods with molasses ('or >anything else that you yourself would eat'), dilutes it and pipes it >back out to his fields. He hand feeds rock flours to his plants with >the same intentiveness and perception of individuality that I have >when I feed the hens. On top of all this, he is a very successful >commercial grower, the kind of guy who can put in 10acres for Odwalla >and deliver. > >Man, if anyone has this interview, I'd love to get hold of it. (If it >is Bob Connard, of course!!) > >-Allan >-- If Bob Connard wants to label his crops "Bob Connard's Biodynamic" fine. It is clear in my mind that he could trademark that. I don't have a problem with it. My whole point is that I'm pretty sure as long as Demeter holds the trademark on biodynamic that Demeter will have a problem with Bob. As far as I can see that is inappropriate and I'm afraid this sort of thing will ruin Demeter. Don't anyone forget that there is this humongous dragon behind Hugh's "fluffy pawed kitten" who can't wait to incinerate and atomize Demeter. It seems to go back to some either real or imagined slights in the past, the kind of thing that waters the seeds of blood lust--in this case civilized blood lust as in civil suits. Incidentally, I don't pick up the news that much, and my Atlanta paper hasn't picked up the story yet. Anything further on Greg's $96M federal lawsuit voiding the terms of office of dozens of California high officials including the State Attorney General and the Governor? It's big news in California apparantly, and has been called such things as the most significant lawsuit in the history of the state. That's Greg. He's trying to get custody of his kids, and if what he has to do is oust the bulk of the state's officials to do it, se la vie! Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 11:36:51 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19227 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28904; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:30:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28579 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:28:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.159] (du-148-233-78-159.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO600LDJJ7VVP@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:31:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:13:03 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: In-reply-to: <20000111095306.23072.qmail@www0w.netaddress.usa.net> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3005 >Guillermo asked if sorrel had anti-cancer properties. > >It is one of the herbs in Essiac, an anti-cancer tea based on a native Indian >remedy. The other ingredients are burdock roots, slippery elm and turkey >rhubarb (I guess this is just plain rhubarb - "Rheum palmatum".) > >Nancy Geffken > Thanks for the info Nancy, I will check my Ayur-Ved references. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 11:41:14 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19335 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:41:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29515; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:34:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29201 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:32:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.159] (du-148-233-78-159.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO600LDJJ7VVP@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:31:12 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:33:20 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: weeds In-reply-to: <387B4191.4114EB5B@erols.com> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA29204 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3006 >And how about thistles? We have an abundance of those here in Virginia >- in fact, they're classified as an invasive weed, and in our farm plan, >each of us has to include how we will eradicate this plant. > >What do thistles indicate? Mine grow awfully big when I don't mow! > >TIA, > >Robert. Hi Robert: On a quick look, I only found Russian Thistle in E. Pfieffer's Weed and what they tell, as an indication of problems with cultivation and salty soil. on how to control perennial Thistle (C. arvense), he says: "The writer observed that when cut before the blossoms are open many more will spread out from the rootstocks. When cut after the blossoms are pollenated the situation is better. But if shortly after pollenation just the blossom-heads (all of them are cut off, then the plant will bleed to death and wilt). But don't forget to do it." "All thistles are rich in potassium (compost!)..." Hope this helps you. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 11:50:00 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19589 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:50:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00808; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:44:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00271 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:40:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.16.179]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:45:33 +0000 Message-ID: <004d01bf5c53$87550440$b3102cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Not your average brain surgeons! Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:39:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3007 Many thanks for some light relief, Hugh! I'm reminded by your mention of first-year chemical analysis of a not-quite-brain-surgeon in my class. We were doing the brown-ring test for (?)nitrate (my wet chemistry is now very rusty!). The instructions read "now carefully pour concentrated sulphuric acid down the side of the test-tube". I watched in horror as he carefully poured it down the OUT side of the tube and it dripped off onto his nice brown shoes. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 11:51:13 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19617 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:51:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00977; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:45:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00269 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:40:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.16.179]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:45:32 +0000 Message-ID: <004c01bf5c53$86933ae0$b3102cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: Re: Mt Everest, for crying out loud ! Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:25:19 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3008 OK, Guillermo - I really didn't believe you meant it as a serious suggestion, but Hugh commented on synchronicity in the list. I _was_ serious, with reservations: if people are going to scatter preps widespread on public land/ wilderness, how much more efficient to use a broadcaster! Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 11:52:34 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19662 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:52:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01169; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:46:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00528 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:42:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.110] (pm3shep1-163-41.intrepid.net [209.190.163.41]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA25410 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:47:33 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001901bf5c42$360a39e0$46cb6cce@netacc.net> References: <387B27B3.ED32AD05@erols.com> <001901bf5c42$360a39e0$46cb6cce@netacc.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:37:28 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3009 >Allan: > >You wrote: <very near future.>> > >I'd be interested to hear about your thinking on this. > >W It's as simple as this, Woody: no markets/no farms, even from Nature Boys like myself. I need to assure a market for what we grow here and I can benefit, just as Fred does, from the Demeter differential. As far as I can tell, I'm in full conformity with the Demeter guidelines (NOT THAT I'VE ACTUALLY SEEN THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ON THE WEB AND I STILL OWE ANN $10 or whatever.) As an educational initiative and the site of the mid-atlantic biodynamic farming and gardening conference, I think it is only respectful to follow many of my friends - - such as Jeff Poppen - - with the Claymont Farm and support Demeter by example and through cash. In addition, I am understaffed here and do not have a lot of time to use in marketing etc. , so neighbor Victor's (Shanti Yoga) offer to sell all of our stuff (if Demeter certified) is important to me. Independent certifier Jerry Collette lives here at Claymont, but I'm not interested in certifying under him. Why do you ask? -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 11:53:49 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19699 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:53:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01397; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:48:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00547 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:42:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.110] (pm3shep1-163-41.intrepid.net [209.190.163.41]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA25450 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:47:40 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:43:56 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Willis vs the State of California was: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3010 Dear Hugh, et al, It w.b. very nice to have some third party confirmation of this legal action. Does anyone have the time to do a web search on a Sacramento newspaper's database? I haven't seen a word back here about this, of course, I don't get much time to read the newspaper, either! (And Bill Clinton is personally stomping the streets of Shepherdstown!!) I'd appreciate your help on this. It's always nice to have an opportunity to incorporate some third party objectivity into our discussions. Thanks -Allan >Incidentally, I don't pick up the news that much, and my Atlanta paper >hasn't picked up the story yet. Anything further on Greg's $96M federal >lawsuit voiding the terms of office of dozens of California high officials >including the State Attorney General and the Governor? It's big news in >California apparantly, and has been called such things as the most >significant lawsuit in the history of the state. That's Greg. He's trying >to get custody of his kids, and if what he has to do is oust the bulk of >the state's officials to do it, se la vie! -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 11:54:59 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19728 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:54:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01534; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:49:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00561 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:42:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.110] (pm3shep1-163-41.intrepid.net [209.190.163.41]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA25472 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:47:47 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:46:06 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: more jobs/internships Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3011 >Here are yesterday's job requests. Once again, you'll also find the >complete list at http://www.biodynamics.com/internship.html. If somebody >has the time, let me know whether these come through with any wierd >formatting. I'm cutting and pasting from the Word files I use for the >journal which have in turn been cut and pasted from e-mail messages. Not >sure how they appear on others e-mail browsers. Take care. >Bruce These look good, Bruce. (So good, in fact, I'm thinking of applying for one myself!!! :-) -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 11:59:44 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19819 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:59:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02182; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:54:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01296 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:47:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-183.s183.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.183] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 1284Wg-0003Tq-00; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:52:11 -0500 Message-ID: <387B600A.ED5DAEC1@erols.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:53:30 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3012 Yes - that helps a lot! Thank you, Guillermo. I'll let you know how it works out. R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:00:58 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19843 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:00:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02395; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:55:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01915 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:52:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-67.98.alltel.net [166.102.67.98]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id KAA16985 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:57:42 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <387B27B3.ED32AD05@erols.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:04:56 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3013 Robert Farr writes: >Hugh: > >Thought I'd weign in with another opinion about your farm being >BioDynamic. > >Seems to me you can't just rely on taste and smell. That's what the >whole Demeter standards were set up for - to create a framework beneath >which a farm could call itself BioDynamic. These standards were created >by Rudolf Steiner, and from what I've read so far (being relatively new >to all of this), are pretty specific (horn manure, horn silica, compost >treatments, horsetail). Yes, Robert, the Demeter guidelines were set up to create a framework for certification. They were not set up by Steiner, however. Steiner was very explicit that he was only giving the most general guidelines and that we would have to experiment and find out what works best. This I've continued to do, and I question whether Demeter has done the same. For example, I question how long it will take or if it will ever be that Demeter includes horn clay in their list of preps which must be applied. Moreover, I stand firm on my knowledge that taste and smell are a more reliable proof of a grower having done what he said he has done than a paper audit trail. > >So - no -under those guidelines if you're not using the Preps, you >simply can't call your farm BioDynamic. Please understand. I certainly am using the preps. In fact I do a bang-up job of using the preps. I am broadcasting the preps 365 days a year. I only spray preps or use preps in other fashions for special effects, say on my potatoes--which I soak in stirred 500 before planting, or on my tomatoes or lettuce which I'd be inclined to spray with 508 in a wet year. The thing is I am not saying my farm is biodynamic under Demeter's guidelines. I am saying it is biodynamic however, and I have a perfect right to do so. > >Think about this. Suppose I decided to create my own standards for >organic growing. Could I then have the state of Virginia award me >Certified Organic status? The answer is - no. Actually in Virginia the certification agency is not the state but the VABF (Virginia Biological Farmers' Association) but regardless your point is well taken. Here in Georgia I do have my own standards of what organic is, but to get the Georgia Organic Growers imprimatur on what I sell I filled out all the paperwork and paid my fees for their certification. Each year the inspectors have all spent more time sightseeing at my farm than they intended because they were all fascinated by how my self-sufficient operation worked and how wonderful my vegetables, spices and dairy products tasted. Certification was like falling off a high wire it was so easy, because I have long set much higher standards. However, my operation goes back over 20 years to before certification programs were in place here. I chaired the original certification committee for the Georgia Growers. I think if it ever came to any legal disputes I could show where my use of the term organic was grandfathered quite nicely and the only thing in question would be whether I could call my farm Georgia Certified Organic. If a soybean farmer in south Georgia grows soybeans and gets OCIA certified organic instead of Georgia Growers Certified, he too is quite legally entitled to use the term organic applied to his soybeans even though he was certified by an out of state agency. So you're both right and you're wrong about this, depending on the level of clarification it is taken to. >Organic growing standards >were created to level the playing field - so that everyone had to meet >some standard previously agreed upon. These sorts of standards remove >subjectivity and provide objectivity. They are something to be measured >against. You've really hit paydirt here, but it may be a little difficult seeing how this is so. This subjectivity/objectivity issue lies at the heart of biodynamic practice. Biodynamics was born out of this issue, this philosophical debate, this competition of world views, as was virtually everything else that Rudolf Steiner did. You and practically everyone else today look at the world as having somehow consumated a divorce between spiritual realities and material, concrete realities. This viewpoint has it that the subjective, spirit, thinking side of things is somehow separate from the objective, material, will side. This view sees the divide between the will and thought as unbridgable. The reason biodynamics exists is to bridge this chasm. I don't look at the world in a subjective/objective way any more than Rudolf Steiner did. I look at things in a way that perceives reality as an integrated experience of spirit and matter together, a unitary experience of subjective and objective realities. How do I do that? When I went to Catholic school as a child we were taught in catechism class that God was everywhere and in all things. Of course, strangely, we were indoctrinated with the idea that God, though He was everywhere and in all things, was not in our hearts, minds and bodies. Very curious, and as you might imagine that puzzled me. It also puzzled me that if we had immortal souls which were sure to live onward through eternity, what about backward into eternity as well? Didn't eternity work in both directions? After three years of Catholic school my father, in his enormous wisdom, enrolled me in a Seventh Day Adventist school. I guess that was to give me a little perspective. As I see it Catholicism sure is a curious mixture of mystical truths and contradictions. Whatever. The point is that I've been trained to look at spiritual reality and concrete reality as combined in one everywhere and in all things since second grade catechism class. It's a good world view and very revealing. It sure works great for me, and it seems to have worked wonderously well for Rudolf Steiner. So how do I do it? No problem. I just DO it. For some people who are steeped in this duality of realities stuff, I rather imagine they will have to practice pretty hard for a while to get the hang of it. As I've mentioned previously I used to guide people through a lengthy biofeedback course (100 hours intensive) to free them of their kneejerk misidentifications, assumptions, beliefs, and other reactive mechanisms and integrate their personalities. My sister, who didn't study with Jack Horner, works with people using an entirely different method which seems to me a lot faster, but I haven't investigated her roadmap well enough to know since I didn't really need to. My sister is one bright gal, however. A lot smarter and better coordinated than I am. I suppose she's 50 or 100 years ahead of her time, as it is clear to me that before she has any real impact on humanity she will have to have her clients eating biodynamically grown food all the time. This is the core issue in biodynamics. It is as Andrew (Agdoc) Lorand said. BIODYNAMICS IS A REVOLUTIONARY SPIRITUAL PRACTICE. When people eat biodynamic food long enough it ends up changing their lives. And I contend biodynamics is seriously diluted with this rote procedure stuff of Demeter's standards. It tends to throw us back into divorcing subjective reality from objective reality instead of moving us forward to living our lives with integrity viewing spirit and matter as one. > >What you propose sounds valid - and your products *do* taste good. But >if you want to call the farm BioDynamic, it seems you have to have your >methods approved by Demeter and entered into the certified BD canon. > >Onwards - > >Robert. This is what this discussion is all about. I greatly fear the position you outline is the same one Demeter might try to defend. Let me assure you that I can and do call my farm biodynamic. I have never called it Demeter Certified Biodynamic, and quite frankly never intend to. My standard of what is biodynamic is so far beyond theirs that I feel their certification could possibly tarnish my reputation, which I'm sorry to say stands alone, or rather stands out there with only a few others. I'm really quite impatient to see droves of others achieve similar quality. I've heard people tell me how patient I am with explaining such things as you've read above? I don't think so. I'm terribly impatient to see people gain greater understanding. That's precisely why I go to such trouble to explain what I've explained above. Why not subscribe to the ABA journal and get a real dose of what is and is not biodynamic? Best wishes, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:09:10 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19982 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:09:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03459; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:03:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02873 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:58:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-67.98.alltel.net [166.102.67.98]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id LAA28970 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:03:33 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:10:47 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Willis vs the State of California was: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3014 Dear Allan, I did see it on a www news spot that Greg sent me the URL for, but unfortunately I didn't copy or print it and those thing change daily. Greg will have to give you help here as he is right there on the spot and I haven't seen anything in the Atlanta paper I read. Hugh >Dear Hugh, et al, > >It w.b. very nice to have some third party confirmation of this legal >action. Does anyone have the time to do a web search on a Sacramento >newspaper's database? I haven't seen a word back here about this, of >course, I don't get much time to read the newspaper, either! (And >Bill Clinton is personally stomping the streets of Shepherdstown!!) > >I'd appreciate your help on this. It's always nice to have an >opportunity to incorporate some third party objectivity into our >discussions. > >Thanks > >-Allan > >>Incidentally, I don't pick up the news that much, and my Atlanta paper >>hasn't picked up the story yet. Anything further on Greg's $96M federal >>lawsuit voiding the terms of office of dozens of California high officials >>including the State Attorney General and the Governor? It's big news in >>California apparantly, and has been called such things as the most >>significant lawsuit in the history of the state. That's Greg. He's trying >>to get custody of his kids, and if what he has to do is oust the bulk of >>the state's officials to do it, se la vie! > >-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:14:00 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20090 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:13:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04025; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:08:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03423 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:03:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.110] (pm3shep1-163-41.intrepid.net [209.190.163.41]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA30595 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:08:25 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004d01bf5c53$87550440$b3102cc3@m00q6c00> References: <004d01bf5c53$87550440$b3102cc3@m00q6c00> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:02:14 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Not your average brain surgeons! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3015 >Many thanks for some light relief, Hugh! > > I'm reminded by your mention of first-year chemical analysis of a >not-quite-brain-surgeon in my class. We were doing the brown-ring test for >(?)nitrate (my wet chemistry is now very rusty!). The instructions read >"now carefully pour concentrated sulphuric acid down the side of the >test-tube". I watched in horror as he carefully poured it down the OUT side >of the tube and it dripped off onto his nice brown shoes. >Tony N-S. Way back in an earlier life as a dealership automechanic, I saw a ticked off flatrate mechanic read the service rep's repair order instructions of 'Grease Steering Wheel' and do just that with the stickiest dark red axle grease he could find! :-) -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:18:50 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20182 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:18:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04531; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:13:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04011 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:08:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-183.s183.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.183] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 1284qY-00062O-00; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:12:42 -0500 Message-ID: <387B64DD.9CC74930@erols.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:14:05 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3016 Hugh: Goddamn good post. Gave me lots to think about. Back to you (all) after I do that! Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:29:21 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00189 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14144; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:10:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13896 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:06:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.27.alltel.net [166.102.66.27]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id QAA01749 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 16:11:37 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38778C03.FAF98C96@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:18:35 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD Preps - Radioactivity - Organic Calcium. Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3017 >Dear Malcolm > >Thanks for your perceptive comments, no offence taken :-) in fact I >couldn't agree with you more regarding the need to get independent and >responsible, not to mention replicable results in these matters of >Biodynamic Agriculture. >The report on "Soil Quality and Financial Performance of Biodynamic and >Conventional Farms in New Zealand" - the "Reganold Report" - published >in "Science" 16th April 1993 Vol.260 - p 344 to 349, would be such >an example. > >There are enough "Modern Myths" floating around in manic-organic circles >without adding yet another. >However, one thing does bother me, Maria Thun would seem to have >nothing to gain by mentioning this matter, if it does perhaps have any >basis in fact, since she places the "recipe" for her "Manure >Concentrate" in the public domain for use by anyone, So why would she >want to make it up? Perhaps someone in the germanic - organic field >(any list members?) who knows her, could ask for some more details. > >JT Dears, Here we have something. Does anyone know Maria Thun's methodologies? I guess she does not give us tables of data on the roentgen counts taken in various circumstances with a geiger/meuller counter. That is pretty clear. But that is by no means the only way to determine radioactivity. How has she made these "irresponsible" determinations that she talks about? Does anyone know? I'm here to tell you that if she has clear enough spiritual perception she will see what the picture is with radioactivity and contamination a whole lot more clearly than if she ran all over the place with a geiger/meuller counter taking readings. She could have long ago been using a method superior to the instrumentation considered state-of-the art by non-spiritual science. I wouldn't want to invalidate what she says without knowing more. Nor would I want to go quoting her as an authority without knowing more. She could be talking a crock of you know what. I'd like to keep an open mind in that direction too. I've got to respond to James and Tony's posts of yesterday, but I don't know how or when I'll get to it. I'm tied up at the moment. Great post, though, James. Whew! I know this stuff sails over many of our readers' heads. But it is really meaty biodynamics if you have enough background to appreciate it. Need I say it? Radioactivity is not quite what one is taught in the schools since they do not teach about the ethers in the schools. There is much more going on with radioactivity than most nuclear physicists even imagine. They only examine the corpses, the results of living, dynamic agencies. Having made an extracirricular study of nuclear physics while studying biochemistry, I believe I know what I am talking about. As in many areas of science the "hardball" nuclear scientists do a perfectly wizard job of making observations only to draw the wildest and most improbable conclusions. Think about it. Writer Robert Heinlein called materialism "The most wildly improbable of all philosophies." While I'm not much of one for Steiner quotes, here's one for you: "The famous technology of our days will come to its end soon because she will in a certain way wind up herself. The following phenomenon will then appear; man will achieve the faculty to employ the fine vibrations of his ethereal body to impulsate mechanical devices. The individual will be able to set the machine in motion by the vibrations generated by himself. The men who are now practical technicians will soon discover they are standing before a complete change as to what one calls practical when man will be involved with his WILL in the objective FEELING of the world." --Rudolf Steiner. Have fun, Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:29:22 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA01887 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 21:09:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA27152; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 21:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA24146 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 20:06:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca106.vthokies.net [206.153.172.106]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA09205 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:52:03 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.0.25.20000108155801.00a75640@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.25 (Beta) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 20:12:07 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: gardner Subject: Re: BD Preps - Radioactivity - Organic Calcium. In-Reply-To: <38778C03.FAF98C96@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3018 At 08:12 AM 1/9/00 +1300, Jim wrote: [snip] >However, one thing does bother me, Maria Thun would seem to have >nothing to gain by mentioning this matter, if it does perhaps have any >basis in fact, since she places the "recipe" for her "Manure >Concentrate" in the public domain for use by anyone, So why would she >want to make it up? Perhaps someone in the germanic - organic field >(any list members?) who knows her, could ask for some more details. Frau Thun's "manure concentrate" (better known in America as '"barrel compost", or in NZ as "cowpat pit manure") is probably the best known compound preparation (i.e., a preparation containing several of the BD preparations, usually the six compost preparations), but it is actually just one of many (I know more than half a dozen others) and was by no means the first. The main uniqueness of her recipe is the addition of eggshells and basalt powder, but I think she would have had a hard time patenting it on that basis. On the other hand, by publishing it she at least had a chance of gaining notoriety as the person who found a novel way to protect oneself or one's farm from radioactive fallout. I don't want to say that she "made up" the experimental results, but she could well have stretched or misinterpreted or misremembered the data. However, I doubt we'll ever know, because in all her work she rarely ever publishes the raw data and is also very casual about the references she makes to other people's experiments. Take for example her description of some research in her book "Work on the Land and on the Constellations" (East Grinstead 1990), p. 31: "About 25 years ago [?] some investigations at a research station in Freiburg [?] had shown that plants which had grown on limestone soils contained far fewer residues of a certain type [?] of radio-active fall-out than plants of the same kind which had grown in silicious soils. Certain experiments [?] were carried out in this connection over a period of 8 years, which showed clearly that the shells of chicken eggs have a significant role [?] to play with regard to the calcium process [?] in the soil and also in regulating [?] its pH value." Evidently she didn't have that research paper in front of her when she wrote this paragraph, even though "Work on the Land" is a book (or at least a thick pamphlet) and not just notes from a lecture. In other words, she didn't bother to go and look up the paper, either to double check her memory or to provide her readers with some of the critical experimental details. As a reader I find this insulting, but I do not doubt that such a paper actually exists and that she at one time saw it (or at least heard about it from someone else). I suspect, however, that what the paper reported was pretty much what I outlined in my post yesterday, namely, that when plants are in a calcium-poor environment (e.g., siliceous soil) they will take up more strontium-90 as substitute for the calcium than when they are in a calcium-rich environment (e.g., limestone soil). I would be interested to know how much eggshell they used per square meter and exactly what they did with them. (I don't think it would have been newsworthy by itself just to report that adding calcium in the form of eggshells affected the soil's "calcium process" and its pH.) Frau Thun apparently tried to repeat this experiment on her own (see Jim's post yesterday), but this would be hard to do if she couldn't remember exactly what the other researcher had done! In any case, we are offered neither her data nor that of the Freiburg research station, and so we are left only with her subliminal recommendation that the recipe for her "manure concentrate" was designed with radioactive fallout in mind and that vague "reports" and "experiments" suggest that it was effective. In my book, publishing this kind of thing is irresponsible, particularly when it involves something life-threatening like radioactivity. --Malcolm Gardner From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:29:28 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16914 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:34:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00455; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:28:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from wave.sheridan.wy.us (root@wave.sheridan.wy.us [206.54.116.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA29937 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:23:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from dbrown (vcn11.usrnet-2.sher.wy.vcn.com [209.193.70.133]) by wave.sheridan.wy.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA15123 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:25:35 -0700 Message-ID: <011e01bf5967$927afb20$9846c1d1@dbrown.wavecom.net> From: "Audrey Malan" To: "biodynamic list serve" Subject: conf. on organic produce marketing co-ops Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:33:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3019 Happy New year all. I wanted to pass along info on an upcoming conference for growers interested in forming marketing co-ops. Marketing co-ops can help small scale growers access more lucrative markets. I did some research last year on orgnic produce marketing co-ops and it was a real pain tracking information down - this conference will pull together current research, growers running their own co-ops with growers interested in starting a co-op - great to have all that info in one place! Cooperatives - cooperation, is the best hope I see for the future of our dear beloved Mother Earth. - Audrey ------------ Audrey Malan Cooperative Consulting Email: redearth@wavecom.net P.O. Box 527, Dayton, WY 82836 > >>>>>===== > >>>>>>From: "Julie Meyer" >>>>>>To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu >>>>>>Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:18:47 -0500 >>>>>>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>>>>>Subject: United We Grow: Cooperatives Conference >>>>>>Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu >>>>>>Precedence: bulk >>>>>> >>>>>>United We Grow: >>>>>> >>>>>>A Working Conference for Small-Scale Vegetable >>>>>>and Fruit Cooperatives in the Northeast >>>>>> >>>>>>MARCH 1-2, 2000 >>>>>> >>>>>>Tuscarora Inn and Conference Center >>>>>>Mt. Bethel, PA >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Sponsored by the "NE Small-Scale Grower >>>>>>Cooperative Project": >>>>>>* Farming Alternatives Program, Cornell University >>>>>>* Northeast Sustainable Agriculture Working Group >>>>>>* Cornell Cooperative Enterprise Program >>>>>>* New England Small Farm Institute >>>>>> >>>>>>Contributing co-sponsors of this conference: >>>>>>* USDA Rural-Business Cooperative Service >>>>>>* Farm Foundation >>>>>>* Northeast Cooperatives >>>>>>* Northeast Regional Center for Rural Development >>>>>>* Cooperative Development Institute/Cooperative >>>>>>Life >>>>>> >>>>>>Small-scale fruit and vegetable cooperatives have >>>>>>the potential to be an increasingly important >>>>>>component of a vital Northeast agriculture. With >>>>>>over forty such co-ops in the region, we have >>>>>>much to learn from one another and from people >>>>>>with a passion for co-ops from across the country. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>The purpose of this conference is to strengthen >>>>>>existing cooperatives, foster new co-op >>>>>>development, and promote networking and >>>>>>organizing. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>What are the current opportunities and challenges >>>>>>facing small-scale grower co-ops in the >>>>>>Northeast? What are the characteristics of >>>>>>successful co-ops? How can co-ops work together >>>>>>to increase opportunities for commercial fruit >>>>>>and vegetable farmers and for the industry as a >>>>>>whole? These are some of the questions that this >>>>>>conference will address. >>>>>> >>>>>>Co-op members, administrators, and advocates from >>>>>>Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi will join the >>>>>>Northeast cooperative community to share >>>>>>information and ideas, successes and challenges. >>>>>>We will also consider the potential for creating >>>>>>regional structures and activities to build our >>>>>>strength. >>>>>> >>>>>>Emerging from a two-year research project >>>>>>investigating experiences of small-scale producer >>>>>>cooperatives in the Northeast, this conference is >>>>>>an opportunity to learn from and network with >>>>>>other small-scale grower cooperative members and >>>>>>supporters. Through "participatory action" >>>>>>research, project team members have been >>>>>>conducting intensive surveys and interviews with >>>>>>over 40 co-op managers and board members. Many of >>>>>>the provocative findings will be presented at >>>>>>this conference. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Featured Guests: >>>>>>Ann Brewer, manager of Georgia Grown Cooperative, >>>>>>Inc., a successful producer cooperative marketing >>>>>>to restaurants. >>>>>> >>>>>>Magid Dagher, a member of the Mississippi >>>>>>Association of the Federation of Southern >>>>>>Cooperatives and Director of Small Farm >>>>>>Development Center, Alcorn State University, MS. >>>>>> >>>>>>Duncan Hilchey, co-author of Marketing >>>>>>Cooperatively: One Region's Answer, Senior >>>>>>Extension Associate at Cornell University's >>>>>>Farming Alternatives Program and senior >>>>>>researcher for this project. >>>>>> >>>>>>Gus Townes, a primary organizer and marketing >>>>>>specialist with the Federation of Southern >>>>>>Cooperatives for over 15 years, and director of >>>>>>the Federation's Rural Training Center in Alabama. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Schedule of Events: >>>>>> >>>>>>Wednesday, March 1st: >>>>>> >>>>>>9:00-10:00 Registration >>>>>> >>>>>>10:00 Welcome and Plenary: "The Importance of >>>>>>Producer Co-ops"- Magid Dagher (Small Farm >>>>>>Development Center, MS), "Results of N.E. Co-op >>>>>>Managers' Survey"- Duncan Hilchey (Cornell >>>>>>University, NY) >>>>>> >>>>>>11:00 Workshop Sessions: >>>>>>A. Innovative Co-op Marketing Strategies- Ann >>>>>>Brewer (Georgia Grown, GA), Roberta MacDonald >>>>>>(Cabot Creamery, VT), Chris Poshpeck (Deep Root >>>>>>Organic Truck Farmers, VT) >>>>>>B. Getting Started- Roger Allbee (Cooperative >>>>>>Development Institute, MA), >>>>>>Doyle Freeman (Alliance, PA) >>>>>>C. Financial Management- Gerald Ely (USDA Rural >>>>>>Development, PA), Laura Howard (Sustainable >>>>>>Business Solutions, MA) >>>>>>D. Research and Policy Issues- Gil Gillespie >>>>>>(Cornell >>>>>>University, NY), Kathy Ruhf (New England Small >>>>>>Farm Institute, MA) >>>>>> >>>>>>12:30 Lunch >>>>>> >>>>>>1:30 Workshop Sessions: >>>>>>E. Co-op Philosophy- Lynn Benander >>>>>>(CDI/Cooperative Life, MA), Randall Torgerson >>>>>>(USDA RBCS, D.C.) >>>>>>F. Planning Primer- Bruce Anderson (Cornell >>>>>>University, NY), Laura Howard (Sustainable >>>>>>Business Solutions, MA) >>>>>>G. Dilemmas of Scale- Magid Dagher (Mississippi >>>>>>Federation of Southern Cooperatives, MS), Tom >>>>>>Gray (USDA RBCS, D.C.), Carol Stull (Finger Lakes >>>>>>Organic Growers Cooperative, NY) >>>>>>H. Effective Boards and Managers- Father Randy >>>>>>Eldridge (H.O.M.E., ME), Chris Fullerton >>>>>>(Tuscarora Organic Growers Cooperative, PA), >>>>>>Brian Henehan (Cornell University, NY) >>>>>> >>>>>>3:00 Break >>>>>> >>>>>>3:30 Facilitated Discussion Groups: For board >>>>>>members, managers, "start-ups," "veterans," >>>>>>service providers, and co-op members. Identify >>>>>>issues and network with peers. >>>>>> >>>>>>5:30 Dinner >>>>>> >>>>>>7:00 Resource Reception: >>>>>>7:00-7:45 What's Out There? Public and private >>>>>>cooperative resources and support. Lynn Benander >>>>>>(CDI), Susan Clare, (Local Enterprise Assistance >>>>>>Fund, MA), Bob Pestridge (USDA CDS). >>>>>>7:45-8:30 Stories from Afar, with Ann Brewer and >>>>>>Magid Dagher. >>>>>>8:30-on: Stories from Home: Share successes, >>>>>>challenges, innovations, lessons; a chance to >>>>>>tell your story and hear from others in the >>>>>>Northeast. >>>>>> >>>>>>Thursday, March 2nd: >>>>>> >>>>>>8:30 Breakfast >>>>>> >>>>>>9:30 Plenary: "Getting Organized"- Gus Townes >>>>>>(Federation of Southern Cooperatives, AL) >>>>>> >>>>>>10:30 Networking and Organizing: Structured >>>>>>breakout sessions to brainstorm & plan regional >>>>>>actions to strengthen our co-ops. >>>>>> >>>>>>12:30 Lunch and Roundtable: Co-operation between >>>>>>Northeast Co-operatives and growers. >>>>>> >>>>>>1:30 Plenary: "Next Steps: Developing An Action >>>>>>Plan: Kathy Ruhf (NESFI, MA) >>>>>> >>>>>>3:00 Adjourn >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Logistics: >>>>>> >>>>>>Registration: fee of $60 includes 2-day >>>>>>conference events, 4 meals, 2 breaks, reception, >>>>>>and materials. >>>>>>A Special Deal: for "participating cooperatives," >>>>>>registration fee is waived for a second >>>>>>representative from your cooperative. One free >>>>>>registration per co-op. ("Participating" means >>>>>>Cornell has contacted you for the research study >>>>>>and you have completed and returned your >>>>>>questionnaire. If you haven't, just drop it in >>>>>>the mail before >>>>>>applying for the discount.) >>>>>> >>>>>>Lodging: Rooms at the Tuscarora Inn and >>>>>>Conference Ctr. Are double occupancy at >>>>>>$70/person/night. >>>>>> >>>>>>Meals: Registration includes Wednesday lunch and >>>>>>dinner, and Thursday breakfast and lunch. Early >>>>>>Arrival? Reserve a room for Tuesday night, which >>>>>>includes a breakfast on Wednesday. >>>>>> >>>>>>Any questions? Special needs? Looking to carpool? >>>>>>Contact Julie Meyer at (413) 665-7725 between 8am >>>>>>and 6pm or jmeyer@shaysnet.com. >>>>>>Deadline for registration is February 11, 2000 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Registration: >>>>>> >>>>>>Name:__________________________________ >>>>>>Participating cooperative or other affiliation: >>>>>>________________________________ >>>>>>Address:__________________________________________ >>>>>>____________ >>>>>>_____ >>>>>>Day Phone Number/ Evening Phone Number: >>>>>>_______________/________________ >>>>>>E-mail or fax:_______________________ >>>>>>Check here if you are the 2nd representative from >>>>>>your co-op >>>>>>(your registration fee is waived). ___ >>>>>>Roommate Preference (Name):_______________ >>>>>>Special dietary needs?______________________ >>>>>> >>>>>>1) Registration at $60 ____ >>>>>>2) Lodging Wednesday, 3/1/99 @ $70 ____ >>>>>> Single room? Add $20 ____ >>>>>>3) Early arrival Tuesday night lodging/ >>>>>>Wednesday breakfast? @ $70 ____ >>>>>> Single room? Add $20 ____ >>>>>>Total amount enclosed: _____ >>>>>> >>>>>>Mail with check payable to NESFI, to: >>>>>>United We Grow, C/O Julie Meyer, >>>>>>288 Hadley Road, Sunderland, MA 01375 >>>>>>Registration Deadline: 2/11/00 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Directions: From the east: Going west on Route >>>>>>80, go to exit 4 in New Jersey (Columbia- >>>>>>Blairstown). Follow signs to Columbia then to >>>>>>the Portland Bridge. Go over bridge, through the >>>>>>tollbooth, and make the first right hand turn. At >>>>>>the stop sign, make another right turn onto River >>>>>>Road (not marked). Follow this road, along the >>>>>>Delaware River, for three miles to >>>>>>Tuscarora Inn and Conference Center. From the >>>>>>south: Follow 611 north. When 611 exits before >>>>>>the Portland toll bridge, make right turn >>>>>>(instead of following 611). Follow this road, >>>>>>along the Delaware River, for three miles to >>>>>>Tuscarora Inn and Conference Center. From the >>>>>>west: Going east on Route 80, exit at Delaware >>>>>>Water Gap - Exit 53 (last exit in PA). Follow >>>>>>sign to Route 611 South (pass Ramada Inn on your >>>>>>left, continue to traffic light, make left onto >>>>>>611 South). Stay on this road until you come to >>>>>>the town of Portland- about 5 miles. When you >>>>>>come through the town, Route 611 turns right. Do >>>>>>not turn. Keep going straight under the bridge >>>>>>and continue >>>>>>on this road, along the Delaware River, for three >>>>>>miles to Tuscarora Inn and Conference Center. >>>>>>Tuscarora Inn and Conference Center, 3300 River >>>>>>Road, Mt Bethel, PA (570) 897-6000. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>>>>>"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the >>>command >>>>>>"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >>>>>>To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >>>>>>"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". >>>>>> >>>>>>All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >>>>>>http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>********************************************** >>>>>Jim Dyer e-mail: jimdyer@csn.net >>>>> >>>>>2727 CR 134 Phone: 970-588-2292 >>>>>Hesperus, CO 81326 >>>>>********************************************** >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:29:29 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26358 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 10:22:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17921; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 10:15:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.41]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17804 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 10:13:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.77] (du-148-233-78-77.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO00097LVSNR6@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 09:17:19 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 09:18:20 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id KAA17809 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3020 Dear Hugh: Please read between the lines. >I'm not sure where you are getting some of this. I'm a member of BOTH the >BDA and the ABA and I'm looking forward to writing for the journals of both >organizations AND (especially) the BDNow list. Where do I get what ? I do not not know what you participating in both org has anything to do with what I am suggesting. > >I've just gone to considerable trouble to ensure that the term biodynamic >will be placed in the public domain as a generic term rather than the >exclusive province of the Demeter Association. Now you are acting as though >all should be under one roof--we should put all our eggs into one basket or >there is something not quite kosher or right with us. Huh? No that is not my intention. If you ask me, I would not consider joining the ABA at this time not because you do not conform to any external standards (in case those are written or established somewhere), but because I have a lot of doubts about the leadership it has and about its motives and objectives for existence. And please do not consider this as an aggression, it is just my own personal perspective of things and in due time, when there are more initiatives and facts to consider, I would be glad to reconsider. With the little evidence and understanding I have today, please forgive me, but I am just not interested. In any case I do believe in competition and I am against any sort of monopoly or one sided organizations, and therefore I am wishing you and Greg great success with the ABA. If you ask me what is the evidence or the doubts I am considering for not joining ABA, I will be happy to tell you off-the-list in order to avoid creating a bias with my very personal views (probably based on my little understanding) for any one out there considering joining you. It is not my interest to hurt the establishment of the ABA in favor of the BDA or any other org., I am just not interested in participating at this time. >Is there something about your view of independence that says those who are >independent cannot be interactive? NO, but precisely, In BD-Now we are not interacting with the BDA. >There must be some reason Noah took two >of every kind aboard the ark. Of course he had no room to spare for more. >In our current circumstance I'd sure feel a lot better with three. I still >remember our list moderator waiting for the BDA board to give him funding a >few years back. Twisting in the wind. And then the board in their infinite >wisdom and knowing nothing of Allan's circumstance tossed him a >well-cleaned bone. It sure was wise, all right, because it taught him a >lesson to rely on how own resources or those he could muster from sources >far more sympathetic than the BDA. I've personally given him a little >funding from now and then. I believe others have. I wrote him a letter >appealing for funding from the list at large, though he hasn't used it yet. >Really, the BDA should have some presence and be interactive in some kind >of an official capacity on this list--though it takes someone doing it >because they want to, not as a chore. At least you might think this list >would be a place to raise membership. I dunno. I do know that interaction, >by definition, is a give and take between at least two if not more. When >you've only got one entity, where's the give and take? I really think you are not getting my suggestion or my views, so let me make them very clear and punctual: a) I want the BDA to participate in BDA-Now for my own benefit and for getting the "official" and the "orthodox" information on what is happening with the great majority of the established BD initiatives and institutions. Today IMO we do not get the full benefit of that info and that input on this list. b) I want everyone to participate in BD-Now, including ABA and Greg Willis. I believe there is a real value in being open to creative and critical thinking. But this kind of thinking also has to have its counter part, it should not be left free to be revolutionary all the time, at some point and with the test of time and effective actions in their records, it should aim to consolidate and become integrated into mainstream. c) I would like all groups, as many as possible and as many as practical, to work together in peace, respect and harmony with each other. We have an underlying agreement and a lot of ground to cover. It is not like we are fighting for "market share", we have a practically "virgin market". With that perspective, IMO it makes sense to make us grow strong via respectful and considerate interactions and cooperation. IMO, lawsuits, threats, resentment, etc, divide us and makes BD and us as practitioners and promoters weak. d) I have nothing against the BDA and do understand why (in context and with perspective) they seem to be conservative and slow moving. As any other human institution, it must have its own culture and I can understand why they seem to be a bit closed and unreactive. If today, in the midst of "new age" information madness, there is a lot of opposition and uninformed disqualifications to openly discussing spiritual matters, I can only suspect what was the picture when the Anthroposophical Society was first formed. I commend the BDA and the Anthrops Society because anyone with the curiosity to learn about Steiner can do it without having to go through esoteric initiation procedures or pay exorbitant "enlightment" fees. They produce, publish and distribute top quality information and they sell it to anyone interested at a competitive price or sometimes even give it away . Their seminars seem to be open to the public and with more than reasonable costs. I do not know much abo! ut Demeter, but it seems that they are as competitive as any other certifying agency (and I am not crazy about certification, but also do see the need for it in particular circumstances). e) I strongly believe that BD-Now should become a well founded institution, I repeat, an Institution. I think the list is of great value and can even grow and mature to be the most important media for discussion and information in the BD world. In this sense we all must contribute with money and with our responsible participations (I have thank you a number of times for your contributions and I here thank you again). As things are today, the most important potential contributor is the BDA and it is not participating. IMO this list is in serious financial jeopardy and I suspect the BDA could help much and I am sure that such help would be to their best interests. But I also see why they could be reluctant to participate, I would not pay either for someone to constantly throw punches at me, but I have paid for the good services of advisors and shrinks, that without patronizing have help me grow. (please do not take this comment as a bid to sell BD-Now to the exclusive inte! rests of the BDA, that is not the intention) f) I strongly believe in the proven capacity of our good friend Allan Balliet to conduct this list. I will and I have supported him always, even by saying openly what I consider to be wrong. As far as I know, BD-Now was born out of a confrontation of personalities and that conflict, IMO; is still pending over our heads. I would like to see it clear away. The list is strong, the list is valuable, the list is needed (an so is Allan, btw), the time has passed, individuals can and must forgive, lets make it happen. Lets make it happen easy and painlessly, lets facilitate a process in which the conflicting parts reunite with "pride". I believe at this point they need each other. I will go as far as to suggest that BD-Now should have an advisory board in which all the interested parties feel their particular interests are safeguard. g) I do not know if the BDA is in fact interested in BD-Now, I could only assume they must be. It is not easy to have the level of participation, the world coverage and the quality that we have here, IMO not even SANET has it even with the power of all the agencies, NGO's, universities and individuals that share their views there. If the BDA is unreactive or unwilling to participate in a democratic and level headed forum (with all the associated risks and benefits), well then let that be their problem, but IMO it would be a good idea to have them back (not in control but in a harmonious and equitable cooperation). The fact now is that Allan is the "owner" of the list and, like in his house, he is the only one that can extend a brotherly invitation to the BDA. >What I have been chafing at the bit to see at the top of the agenda ever >since I've been in the BDA is getting the benefits of the BD preps applied >to the widest possible areas over the entire earth. I've been around 23 >years and not seen any discernable sign of this yet. Is that the whole responsibility of the BDA, or is it because people are just not ready or interested ? The info is available to anyone, there are a number of highly qualify consultants, the preps are avail at a very reasonable price, so what is the problem ?. In my opinion it has to do with a phenomena like "The Secret Protecting itself". I even think the BDA, in their efforts to make this methodology available to the general public, has being concentrating too much in their discussion of the chemical associations of the preps (ie. The Nuts and Bolts of Biodynamics by Alan York). But I can also understand why, at entry level, they avoid mentioning in detail the more "spiritual" organizational aspects of BD. > I DO remember many >years back when Mary Lee Plumb-Mentjes wrote an article about trace >application of preps to watershed areas. With that in mind our Atlanta BD >club camped one Easter in Joyce Kilmer National Forest in the Smokies and >sprayed all the preps on one weekend. And Lorraine Cahill dowsed for power >spots at both ends of the Grand Canyon National Park and buried vials of >preps to radiate out on the ley lines. Hugh Courtney and Beau Johnson went >to lthe nation's capitol and sprayed the White House, the USDA and the >Vietnam Memorial. But these acts took place irregardless of the BDA itself >which could as well have been a flower on the wall. Do you think those type of actions will get BD to the general public ?, they seem to be more romantic than effective to me. (nothing wrong with being Romantic btw) > >Since this is the case you may ask what do we need with the BDA? Well I >think we DO need the BDA to publish and sell books, to coordinate >information, network addresses, answer inquiries and put out a newsletter. It seems that it is just what they are doing, but what else do you feel they should do ? How can they improve ?, using what mechanisms ? >And I'm sure no more of these functions will be duplicated by the ABA than >necessary. After all, the ABA will be too busy working on the job of >covering the earth with the preps, for crying out loud. And just how will you do that ?, with a cosmic pipe installed on Mount Everest? (sorry for being sarcastic here, but for "crying out loud" and for the good of the Earth please share your strategy) >You seem to think we just HAVE to be one big happy and live under the same >roof. Well I don't think so, nor do I think that separate households is >going to lead to fighting. How do you figure fighting? I generally see more >fighting in households where too many people are forced to all live under >the same roof. See above please. > >Well, admitedly, I'm not making much sense out of what you posted. Maybe I >need to, as you put it, shut up and head for bed. I've got an outline and >some crude draft material on the article about biodynamic field >broadcasting. It looks like it will be too long for Bruce. I'll have to >draft it out and see what I get. No doubt it will be great fun providing >I've had a night's rest. > >Best, >Hugh I don't think so Hugh but do get some sleep, as always, I will be looking forward for your reply. Warm greetings friend. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:29:32 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03839 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:55:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA05946; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:49:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05896 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:49:08 -0500 (EST) From: Snarzlak@aol.com Received: from Snarzlak@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.e2.e208bd13 (4405) for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:53:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:53:38 EST Subject: Fwd: NOFA Vermont speaks! To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_e2.e208bd13.25a96e52_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 39 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3021 --part1_e2.e208bd13.25a96e52_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_e2.e208bd13.25a96e52_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: Snarzlak@aol.com From: Snarzlak@aol.com Full-name: Snarzlak Message-ID: <1c.1c198877.25a6f828@aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 03:04:56 EST Subject: NOFA Vermont speaks! To: Snarzlak@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 39 NOFA Vermont's Policy Statement on Genetic Engineering in Agriculture 10/4/99 Overview Current agricultural uses of biotechnology undermine the principles of organic farming. At its most fundamental level, organic agriculture seeks to improve the long term fertility of soil and to care for the overall health of the farm ecosystem. In contrast, developments in biotechnology through genetic engineering claim-but don't actually deliver-increases in yield and efficiency at a cost to soils, ecosystems and farm communities. For example, one of the most touted features of this technology is herbicide resistance in crops grown from genetically engineered seed, such as Monsanto's "Roundup Ready" seed. In this case, genetic engineering fails to meet the requirements of organic agriculture: herbicide resistant crops promote use and dependence on herbicides which degrade the soil and threaten the health of ecosystems while eventually leading to resistance to the herbicide by weeds. In brief, the products currently available through genetic engineering-like many aspects of chemical dependent agriculture-address the symptoms rather than the causes of farm problems. Perhaps the most important and insidious aspect of genetic engineering in agriculture is the way in which it undermines local food systems and food independence. When farmers depend on a small number of huge corporations for both proprietary seed and obligatory herbicides, genetic engineering becomes another chapter in the ongoing destruction of independent family farms and farmers' long term security. Instead, we should be promoting seed saving, soil improvements like crop rotations, and development of regional and local food economies. Although gene splicing-inserting genes from one organism that produce one trait or mechanism into another organism-may appear to be a harmless improvement on the long standing practice of plant breeding and selection, there are radical differences. In all natural systems there is some gene flow between subpopulations, but the rate is slow and the flow is usually limited to a single species. Traditional breeding accentuates and accelerates this process, but does not overcome limitations and balances engendered by millennia of evolution through natural selection. In genetic engineering, gene splices across different phyla and kingdoms of organisms are possible. The long-term changes and results of this genetic mixing are, at best, poorly understood. Rebecca Goldburg, a member of the National Academy of Sciences committee looking into genetically engineered crops, notes, "Genetic engineers still can't control very well where a gene is inserted or how many copies are inserted...And if you plant a new gene in the middle of some existing genetic material, you can screw up the function or change the way the gene works." 50 genetically engineered crop plants have been approved by the US Department of Agriculture. This relatively limited number of crops end up in products which represent a large amount of the total US food volume. The most striking example is that nearly 60% of all processed foods contain corn or soybeans that have been grown with genetically altered seeds. The number of acres of agricultural land planted to genetically engineered crops also grows at tremendous rates: 70 million in 1998, double the number from the previous year. This year (1999), one fourth of US cropland is covered by genetically engineered crops, according to industry estimates. As the "Green Revolution" of the 1960's and 70's painfully demonstrated, agricultural practices that fail to honor the need to build soil fertility, develop local self-reliance, use appropriate technologies, and create long-term approaches to food production ultimately do more harm than good. At this point, genetic engineering appears to satisfy none of these standards. Similarly, the claim that genetic engineering will answer the world-wide hunger crisis confuses the issues: the problem of hunger comes mostly from a lack of social justice and distribution failures, not production limitations. The dissemination and promotion of genetically engineered seeds and products primarily contributes to increased corporate control, ecosystem degradation, further erosion of community food security and the loss of sustainable farming practices. Therefore, NOFA-VT takes the following positions: Seed Saving and Organic Seed Standards: NOFA-VT supports the development of more active seed saving efforts and is currently drafting standards for the production of organic seed. One of the most important ways farmers and other citizens can resist the negative impacts of genetic engineering on agriculture is by saving seed, supporting local organic seed companies, establishing seed banks, and insulating farms and gardens from genetic drift (see below). Ban the Planting of Genetically Modified Seed in Vermont NOFA-VT supports a ban on the planting and growing of genetically engineered crops in Vermont. Our state has the opportunity to continue its leadership in the development of sustainable and organic agriculture by spearheading this ban. At this point, only a small percentage of our state's cropland is planted with genetically engineered seed, mostly animal feed corn. (About 5% of the corn in VT this year was planted from genetically engineered seed, according to an informal Vermont Department of Agriculture survey.) Instead of being faced with huge problems-both biological and legal-after the flood gates have been opened, we should enact legislation that protects the integrity of our local farms and our citizens, before genetically engineered crops become pervasive. Indeed, without a ban, seed saving and other individual efforts to insulate farms and gardens from unwanted genetic drift (see below) may be futile. Mandatory Labeling NOFA-VT supports the development of a mandatory labeling program so that all foods containing genetically modified organisms (GMO's) are prominently identified. One of the fundamental values within organic agriculture is informed consumer choice. Similar to nutrition labeling, irradiation labeling and country of origin labeling, GMO labeling would give consumers control over their food-in this case, the degree of risk they are willing to take with a new technology. The 1992 Food and Drug Administration policy that allows genetically modified products to remain unlabelled takes away this consumer choice. Another problem with a lack of genetic engineering labeling is that health and allergy impacts of genetic engineering foods will be difficult to trace or study. The protocol for this labeling should indicate on all foods whether they do or do not contain GMO's. Genetic Drift The use of genetically modified organisms and seeds are prohibited practices for NOFA-VT certified farmers. Deliberate use of genetic engineering products-or the inadvertent appearance of genetically engineered strains or markers in organic fields, feeds, and crops-is grounds for decertification. Cases are already appearing in which genetically engineered strains are outcrossing with organic plants. Biotech Reporter, a biotechnology industry newsletter, notes in the case of canola that, "pollen mediated outcrossing can easily carry...[genetically engineered] traits to other... plants." Another disturbing example of this problem was found in Wisconsin where the organic food processor, Terra Prima, had to destroy 87,000 bags of corn chips that couldn't be marketed as organic: tests of the chips had found traces of genetically engineered corn. The explanation for the foreign genes in the organically raised corn was pollen drift from conventional fields. This type of outcrossing threatens a fundamental tenet of organic agriculture. Liability for Genetic Drift Where does the liability rest for the way genetic drift infringes on organic farmers' rights and livelihood? It is ironic and unfair that corporations controlling genetically engineered seeds (such as bt corn) are holding farmers liable for "illegal" seed saving and yet may be free from liability when unwanted genetic material from their genetically engineered products "drifts" into organic crops. NOFA-VT supports the development of policy and legal statutes that hold biotechnology companies liable for genetic drift and compromised organic fields and crops. These companies should also be held liable for genetic pollution, such as "superweeds" (see below). Public Notification of Gentically Engineered Fields It is crucial to organic farmers to know where genetically engineered crops are being grown in order to protect the integrity of organic crops grown in the vicinity. NOFA-VT supports the development of a protocol to be administered by the Vermont Department of Agriculture, where the location and type of genetically engineered crops is made public prior to planting. It is especially important that certification bodies, such as Vermont Organic Farmers, have this information for decisions about buffer zones and other safeguards of organic crops. Terminator Technology NOFA-VT strongly opposes the development of the so-called "terminator" technology: sterile, proprietary seeds and related genetic engineering technologies. We support a total ban on the use of this technology and urge the state of Vermont to make the use of terminator seeds illegal. New Hampshire has made inroads on banning the terminator and Vermont should also take up this effort and complete the ban. The sterilization of seeds is an affront on one of the most fundamental relationships between people and plants upon which all cultures depend. Knowing that this technology was developed with major support from the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) is also cause for dismay. The permanent proprietary control of seed stock, with mandatory annual purchases, only further adds to the concentration of power in the hands of few giant agri-business corporations. Insect Resistance to Bt NOFA-VT is opposed to the development and use of genetically engineered plant strains that produce their own Bacillus thuringensis (Bt) bioinsecticides. Bt has been one of the few tools available against insect pests for organic farmers. As currently used by organic farmers, bt is a highly specific pest control that leaves no toxic residues and is not widely enough used to promote pest resistance. However, widespread use of genetically engineered crops which produce their own bt toxins will quickly induce bt resistance in many insects, effectively eliminating one of the few organic pest controls available. Current voluntary management plans-which call for small insect refuges in hopes of maintaining non-resistant pest insects in the population- are wholly inadequate and not enforced. New proposals from Monsanto, Dow and other biotech corporations to set aside 20% non-bt corn areas are also inadequate and may do nothing to slow the rapid elimination of bt as a useful tool. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) needs to develop truly effective strategies to protect against the rapid development of bt resistance. Current estimates range from 3 to 15 years before bt is rendered useless. Damage to Beneficial Insects At the same time that pest insects are moving toward bt resistance, evidence is accumulating that beneficial insects are threatened by the new bt producing plants. The form of bt produced by genetically engineered corn and other crops maintains an active toxin. The most striking case to date is a study conducted by Cornell University in which an alarmingly high rate of mortality was observed in monarch butterflies that were exposed to the pollen from bt corn. Insect Resistance in Weeds and Wild Plants One specific case of unwanted genetic outflow that is of special concern is the potential for genetically engineered crops to cross with weeds, creating "super weeds." For example, crop pollen from genetically engineered rape seed and sunflowers has the ability to cross with closely related weed species. In Vermont, squash is likely to be at risk. Herbicide-resistant or bt producing weeds will have a powerful advantage over other weeds and will quickly create problems for farmers. Wild plants-and biodiversity in general-are also threatened by the advent of genetically altered competitors. Human Health Hazards and Governmental Review NOFA-VT supports mandatory and thorough testing of genetically engineered foods for human health hazards. This will require a significant revamping of the fragmentary and weak regulatory roles of the USDA, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the EPA. Under current regulations, the review process for US corporations is almost wholly voluntary. The USDA requires no more than a note-from companies that have previously field-tested genetically engineered crops and would like to continue or expand these plantings-indicating that safety precautions will be taken. Although FDA guidelines call for full testing of genetically engineered foods, their review process is voluntary. The EPA asserts that pesticides that have already been tested for human health safety must also be safe when produced by genetically engineered plants. All of these agency positions are inadequate to assure the safety of food. Food Allergies Life-threatening allergic reactions are a distinctly possible unwanted outcome of gene splicing in food products. For example, Pioneer crossed genes from brazil nuts into soybeans to increase protein yield. Despite the fact that the development of allergic reactions in people was considered highly unlikely, FDA tests show just such a reaction and the soybean was removed from production. The potential for future negative human health problems, that go undetected or tested for, is another compelling reason to reject genetically engineered food products. Herbicide Resistant Varieties Some have argued that the use of herbicide resistant plant varieties, such as Monsanto's "Roundup-Ready" soybeans, is a benefit to sustainable agriculture because it avoids the use of more toxic, long-lasting herbicides. This type of "not as bad as the other one" argument is contrary to the long-term health of ecosystems and soils. NOFA-VT opposes the development of agricultural practices that are dependent on herbicides and other inputs at the cost of long-term soil fertility. --part1_e2.e208bd13.25a96e52_boundary-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:29:23 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21741 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 12:27:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11482; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 12:22:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11340 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 12:20:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.86] (du-148-233-78-86.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO4005CHQZO4A@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:23:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:19:08 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA11345 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3022 Dear Hugh: It seems that we have reach an agreement on most everything, what remains is that you want to make the name Biodynamic public domain and I want to have access to BDA information and points of view on-line. I really do not care much about who owns the term, but would like to see that whomever use it, does it in a responsible way. My wish/petition is now (I hope) in the hands and the wills of the BDA hierarchies and in those of Allan. Lets see if someone reacts to it. Allan mentioned that he had some information about a well funded internet alternative being started somewhere: "So, there is an opening here. If the BDA can accept that this on-line community is performing a much needed function for biodynamic farmers and gardeners around the world and work with us rather than resent us for doing their job .. and if we can work within progressive biodynamics without reacting to this recurring fear (which, believe me, is not irrational - I have the email to prove it!) that we are about to be eaten by something larger, better funded, and more orthodox, there's reason to believe we've entered a new octave and the world's about to become a better place for children of all species." I strongly believe that it would benefit to have everyone in a same forum, otherwise there will not be a real interaction, but if it can not be done, as you and Allan seem to think, well that will be too bad, and those like I, interested in different perspectives, will have to read different sources to form an opinion. Given the relative size and influence of this community, I still find this alternative absurd. I am glad this discussion has finally gone elsewhere: Reganold, M. Thun, traditional research versus "supersensible perception", etc. Let me ask you and Jim, Glen and Mr. Gardner, if the name Biodynamics is going to be place in public domain, who will be responsible for defining and deciding what would be accepted and effective for being called BD ?. It seems that although conservatively the BDA's in the world are doing that right now, but who will in the future ?. How can the public be sure that biodynamic whatever is indeed Biodynamic ?. This is a very delicated issue, given that we do not have research methods, or observation methodology (including statistics and measuring devices) for dealing with "supersensible" variables. Dr.Reganold, as far as I know, has never being able to put together a comparative and valid research project to match BD vs organic production, there are so much variables to consider and to account for that it is practically impossible to conform with traditional research criteria. How could I be certain that the field broadcaster or that horn clay are indeed Biodynamic and that such developments conform to the theoretical and operational framework established by the clairvoyance of Dr. Steiner ? (today named Biodynamic Agriculture). Be aware that I am not questioning those developments nor I am given them my support, I just want you to tell me how could you provide the public with objective and valid info supporting this and other developments that transcends sale pitches and anecdotical stories ?. I have tasted a slice of your corn bread, a slice of your dilled cukes and a clove of your garlic. I have to admit they were really good, and I congratulated you, but that is not IMO a complete way to test things for the general adoption of a given methodology (it is just a part of the testing). According to what you said; you stopped spraying the preps in 1998, and you are relying on the field broadcaster alone. It is not like you are using those developments on top of traditional BD, but it seems that you are using them instead of traditional BD. So is your farm Biodynamic ?, well that is now subjective, Demeter says no, you say yes, who is right ?, If I were interested in the conflict, how could I decide ?, based on what info ?. I hope you do not take this email personally, I am just using you as an example, but would like to discuss things with a general perspective. Regards Friend Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:29:23 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16583 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:11:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA28683; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:05:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28529 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:04:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca177.vthokies.net [206.153.172.177]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA31298 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 16:50:07 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.0.25.20000107082939.00a6a5f0@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.25 (Beta) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 17:09:32 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: gardner Subject: Re: BD Preps - Radioactivity - Organic Calcium In-Reply-To: <3875B512.17381D7D@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3023 At 10:42 PM 1/7/00 +1300, Jim wrote: >Dear Cramer Gefren, Malcolm Gardner and List. > >Thanks Malcolm for your very interesting posts from Pfeiffer and about >Werner Heisenberg. > >There are references from Maria Thun about various aspects of >Radioactivity in her booklet "Working with the Stars" the 1987 >edition. (1) >A quick summary from this booklet reveals that " radioactive substances >and different kinds of radiation do not penetrate into the Cow Horn >which is used for two of the preparations" >and she also writes >"This year we have received many reports telling us that where there >have been regular sprayings during the last few years the measured >radiation was considerably less than in neighbouring areas. Similar >results have been reported about compost heaps treated with the >preparations" (2) Dear Jim, Please don't take personal offense at this, but these statements of Maria Thun's are completely irresponsible. She offers no data or references to support them and I've seen no one else do so either. In the letter I quoted, Pfeiffer goes on to say that cow horns offer a "certain protection" since they do not absorb radioactive substances the way bones do, but he does *not* say that they can *block* radioactivity or otherwise protect what is put in the cavity of the horn. Apart from Maria, I have also heard the apocryphal story that after the 1986 Chernobyl explosion the German government took aerial measurements of the radioactivity on the ground (is that really possible?) and found that there were certain "blank" spots, which turned out to be biodynamic farms. This data, however, was supposedly suppressed by the government, which is why it is unavailable. Until we get real data from Maria Thun, or independent verification from someone else, I think it is irresponsible to spread the story that any of the bd preps are able to mitigate radioactivity in any way. In my opinion, for the moment the only responsible attitude is the one advocated by Pfeiffer, namely, to fight physical enemies with physical means. >The regular sprayings mentioned here are of the "Manure concentrate of >Maria Thun" >which is a base of cow manure to which is added finely ground organic >calcium in the form of eggshells ,also basalt dust and all the BD >Preparations. Recipe available in the BD Literature. > >Further on >In our experiments with growing plants on a sandy soil, those that had >been grown on a soil treated with egg shells and ground basalt showed no >Strontium 90" - (3) >However, from Pfeffer's quotation given by Malcolm, - why would the >oak bark preparation become radioactive? it would appear that there is >a very strong relationship between organic Calcium and Radioactivity. Jim, calcium and strontium are very similar chemically (they are neighbors in the periodic table). Given a choice, living organisms *prefer* calcium, but if this is not available, they will take up strontium and deposit where they would otherwise deposit calcium. Providing readily assimilable calcium is a good way to minimize the uptake of strontium, including the radioactive isotope strontium-90. I don't think there is any, more general relationship between calcium and radioactivity. Eggshells no doubt provide a good source of such calcium, but evidently what is important here is the *quantitative* ratio of calcium and strontium. How did Maria Thun do her experiments? Were they pot or field experiments? How much calcium did her sprays add to the soil? How much strontium was in the soil? Without answers to questions like these, her "experimental results" are meaningless. The oak bark preparation can become radioactive--when there are high levels of radioactive fallout--either via assimilation of radionuclides by the oak tree, by the animal whose skull is used, or by the rainwater in which the preparation is immersed. Based on his remarks in the letter I quoted, I think Pfeiffer was most concerned about the rainwater. --Malcolm Gardner From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:30:32 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03192 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:32:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04844; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:26:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.rmci.net (saturn.rmci.net [205.162.184.38]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04639 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:22:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 7533 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2000 03:47:39 -0000 Received: from dialup-ip-206-159-124-45.lew.rmci.net (HELO dave) (206.159.124.45) by saturn.rmci.net with SMTP; 9 Jan 2000 03:47:39 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000108203331.0070a428@valley-internet.net> X-Sender: veggies@valley-internet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 20:33:31 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: David or Deloris Subject: UNSUBSRIBE In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.25.20000108155801.00a75640@swva.net> References: <38778C03.FAF98C96@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3024 . From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:33:04 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA02546 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:36:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23305; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:31:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23208 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:28:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-3.s3.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.3] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 127ITD-0006zv-00; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:33:23 -0500 Message-ID: <38788E75.26A5B48A@erols.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 08:34:45 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Dealing w/ tree roots and septic pipes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3025 Allan: Be careful of copper. It can cause serious joint and other health problems. Try doing a search on the 'Net for more info - Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:33:19 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA02541 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:36:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23273; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:30:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx03.together.net (mx03.together.net [204.97.120.63]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23084 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-15-MAX-BTVT-00.ramp.together.net [207.41.50.15]) by mx03.together.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA24430 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:26:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38789119.500E753E@together.net> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 08:46:03 -0500 From: Lisa Mccrory Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Fwd: NOFA Vermont speaks! References: <38781AAE.A41A1F2A@erie.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3026 Mark - NOFA-VT is the Northeast Organic Farming Association of Vermont. Their website is www.nofavt.org NOFA-VT is a private nonprofit that offers a lot of services in the area of organic and biodynamic agriculture. I work for NOFA-VT as the Dairy Technical Assistance Program Coordinator. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have...(once you browse the website) Lisa McCrory lmccrory@together.net Mark Winschel wrote: > Thanks for the overview. Can you tell me who NOFA is and if > they have a website? > > Mark Winschel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:34:26 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02306 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 07:35:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA21465; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 07:29:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from earth.ncn.net (ncn.net [199.120.120.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21370 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 07:27:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([206.72.53.36]) by earth.ncn.net (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA10169 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 06:23:33 -0600 Message-ID: <000901bf5a9d$a0e08fe0$243548ce@default> From: "Mike or Mona Majorowicz" To: "BDNOW!" Subject: BDNow Archives Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 06:32:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3027 I've noticed that the BDNow archives haven't been updated since Jan. 1. Are the messages still being archived or are they being sent to the bit bucket? Mike Majorowicz From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:34:32 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20307 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:35:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04646; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:29:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04260 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:26:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.202.33]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:31:04 +0000 Message-ID: <004401bf5b88$563ecf60$21ca2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:32:21 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3028 Dear Hugh - Thanks for your long and thoughtful post on nuclear energy. You spend so much of your time putting us right! I entirely take your point. I was thinking small, about the impact of nuclear-generated electricity upon the user (who, hopefully, is a good long way away from the generating station). Here in Britain, few of us are a truly comfortable distance away from the nearest nuke - altho my nearest two are old Magnox reactors, amongst the soonest to go out of service. A fair proportion of local energy is wind generated - and, of course, there's always the fabled Severn Barrage, probably harmless as a source of energy but pretty unwelcome to an estuarine ecologist like myself. I suppose that all radiated energy, at least in the electromagnetic spectrum, must disturb the ethers to some extent - just as the sound of human maritime activity disrupts whale communication, even tho it's at a pretty low energy level. Yes, Oppenheimer is a great hero of mine. You refer to the synchronicity of this list: I notice that Guillermo is suggesting, sarcastically, almost what I was enquiring about seriously (a broadcaster on Everest). Best wishes, Tony N-S From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:34:31 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA08833 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 18:33:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02457; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 18:27:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02250 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 18:24:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.36.alltel.net [166.102.66.36]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id RAA14112 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 17:29:48 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 18:31:50 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: weeds Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3029 >Does anyone know what a large amount of sorrel or shamrock (oxalis) growing >in my soil is indicative of? What's your pH? Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:34:26 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04254 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:08:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07809; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:02:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07478 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 12:58:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.43] (pm3mbr5-166-234.intrepid.net [209.190.166.234]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA18828 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:03:37 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000901bf5a9d$a0e08fe0$243548ce@default> References: <000901bf5a9d$a0e08fe0$243548ce@default> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:06:23 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: ADMIN: Re: BDNow Archives Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3030 >I've noticed that the BDNow archives haven't been updated since Jan. 1. Are >the messages still being archived or are they being sent to the bit bucket? > >Mike Majorowicz To my understanding, Mike, our server is starting a new archival method with the new year. I'll check with them and see when the archives will be up again. In the meantime, I'm working on a true search engine for msgs, so we should e able to get more use out of the archived msgs in the near future. Incidentally, the amount of traffic to the archives in a month is truly incredible! Thanks for the heads up, -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:34:48 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03112 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 10:27:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27983; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 10:20:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27833 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 10:17:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.177.alltel.net [166.102.66.177]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id JAA06164 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 09:22:52 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 10:29:53 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: BD on Mt. Everest Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3031 Guillmero posted: >And I'm sure no more of these functions will be duplicated by the ABA than >necessary. After all, the ABA will be too busy working on the job of >covering the earth with the preps, for crying out loud. And just how will you do that ?, with a cosmic pipe installed on Mount Everest? (sorry for being sarcastic here, but for "crying out loud" and for the good of the Earth please share your strategy) Hugh responds: It takes people. People have long been trashing this world and it's going to take people to fix it. The question is one of entering peoples' minds, their hearts and their souls with the idea of biodynamics. It is clear--to me at least--that holding a trademark on the term biodynamic is not the way to do this. It puts a freeze on a lot of other things--including biodynamic field broadcasters (cosmic pipes). Who knows what will suffer next? I've heard it said that making and using horn clay was not biodynamic, or if it turned out to be biodynamic that could only be after two or three decades of experimentation. Well, I "experimented" with it on my farm this past year and I'm here to tell you it brought a wonderful abundance in a drought year. Over the years I've gotten really sensitive to what I eat, and this was the most biodynamic food I've ever grown. You were there at the Claymont conference and ate some of the cornbread made with the corn I grew. What did you think? Was it biodynamic? You tasted some of the other things I grew, didn't you? Some of you readers on this list who have eaten my food, what do you think? I'm going to use horn clay as a BD prep along with horn silica and horn manure from now on and call it biodynamic. It is biodynamic, no question at all. Foot draggers who say it will take twenty or thirty years before horn clay can be called biodynamic need to park that boulder on the side of the road. They don't have to call horn clay biodynamic. It's their choice. Demeter does not have to call horn clay biodynamic or require those they certify to use horn clay. That's their choice. But they can't stop me from using the term biodynamic. Trademarking a word like this robs us all of a rich significance, killing the mission we need to accomplish. Is there anyone who does NOT see that? Your sarcasm is rich, Guillermo, and I like it. It wouldn't be easy to accomplish what you suggest with Mt. Everest but maybe it's not such a bad idea. You can always be sarcastic with me without fear. You could never wound my ego as it is far, far too enormous. It didn't used to be that way, of course, but that's what comes of eating biodynamic grains, vegetables, etc. lo these twenty some years. Best wishes, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:34:32 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA11829 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:41:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA18678; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:35:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18466 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:33:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([203.96.93.86]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000110033807.EZBR3144.mta3-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:38:07 +1300 Message-ID: <38795462.6D5C@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:39:14 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3032 JLacome@aol.com wrote: > > Does anyone know what a large amount of sorrel or shamrock (oxalis) growing > in my soil is indicative of? Sorrel is acidity Oxalis probably the same but maybe just bad luck GA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:34:49 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03525 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:27:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01793; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:22:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01663 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:21:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.7.87]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.117.11); Sun, 9 Jan 2000 16:26:26 +0000 Message-ID: <005c01bf5abe$822656e0$57072cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000107104008.009c7100@mail.teleport.com> Subject: OFF: nuclear power (was BD Now! and the BDA) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 15:47:07 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3033 Thanks, Dave. My question was slightly tongue-in-cheek; I wanted to check out if there is a specific anthropop or BD objection to nuclear power, in addition to the 'normal' problem of long-term waste which, of course, I recognise. I can see that nuclear reactions result in a vastly abnormal concentration of energy, also that long-term waste stored in the sun is rather less of a problem; my point about the sun is that the energy we receive (whether as light or electricity) is not tainted, at the point of use, by its mode of generation. Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:34:46 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA12868 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 00:03:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA26618; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 23:57:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26372 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 23:52:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.161.alltel.net [166.102.66.161]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id WAA04480 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:57:15 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3879526D.755D@xtra.co.nz> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 00:04:19 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BDNOW & BDA Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3034 >Hugh Lovel wrote: > >> >> Really Glen? >> >> Please, do tell us more. >> >> Hugh > >Given that the potentised preps travel easily, store well and stay >effective for a long time, and seem very durable even after a degree of >abuse, they are the best form of mass marketing BD preps. The biggest >problem is acceptance. The recent Reganold research should make a dint >in this. At present we have around 200 ha of orchards regularly using >Garuda BD preps in this area and a problem of easy accessiblity to >product is beginning to arise, given myself and two other suppliers are >the only place they can be purchased in NZ. It appears to me that better >labelling and wider distribution will allow more people to easily >procure BD preps as and when they need them. Which appears to be a big >criteria. At present forward thinking, phone calls and waiting for the >post are the major way of buying them. Hardly C21 marketing. > >It seems the logical next step, and one we had been considering these >last few months. Ah but business, it has so many variables. We will just >have to wait and see how it all pans out. > >Having said all this I could restate my opening remarks as one of the >big benefits of potentised preps, they can allow large numbers of people >to have easy access to the preps and apply them over large areas. > >cheers > >Glen A Dear Glen, I believe it is obvious you are on a parallel (if different) track to my own. It makes excellent sense. To make enough preps to cover the earth is too big a task, and one form or another of potentized preps is really the only option. Presumably those with blinders firmly in place are no mathematicians. I'm not the astrologer you are (though I am one) but I can see clearly that in the mathematics of astrology you should come into contact with enough math to realize that the making and direct application of the preps is not going to cover the earth short of virtually every farm adopting BD and making preps and treating land outward from there. How likely is that? Quite frankly the idea of doing the job completely by the orthodox methods of stirring and spraying these quantities of horn manure, horn silica, etc. seems to me a fatuous idea. I gave up going that way about 1985 or '86. Anyway, what can I do to help? Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:34:57 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA11684 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA18191; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:31:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17828 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:27:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([203.96.93.86]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000110033136.EXVP3144.mta3-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:31:36 +1300 Message-ID: <387952DB.2E99@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:32:43 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BDNOW & BDA References: <13.130c7505.25a91a5f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3035 LMvine@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1/8/00 4:08:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, Garuda@xtra.co.nz > writes: > > << The recent Reganold research on the > preps should just about do it. > > cheers > > GA. > >> > Is there some new analysis on the preps? I know about the 93 article by > Reaganold on NZ farms and later with Carpenter-Boggs in 97 but you seem to > infer something newer - "recent". Please share any newer info because it's a > long way from being on the shelves in the U.S. > > Dan Dan I posted something to the list around Xmas. Also put J reganold in the search engine and it should appear quickly. Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:34:58 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA08610 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 18:04:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00662; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 17:58:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA00441 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 17:56:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip044.computer.net [140.186.252.44]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA07614 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 18:01:05 -0500 (EST) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 18:02:20 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: January 09, 2000 - January 15, 2000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id RAA00442 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3036 Calendar of the Soul [January 09, 2000 - January 15, 2000] Forty-first Week (January 12-18) The soul's creative might Strives outward from the heart's own core To kindle and inflame god-given powers In human life to right activity; The soul thus shapes itself In human loving and in human working. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Der Seele Schaffensmacht, Sie strebet aus dem Herzensgrunde, Im Menschenleben Götterkräfte Zu rechtem Wirken zu entflammen, Sich selber zu gestalten In Menschenliebe und im Menschenwerke. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-2000 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+41 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:35:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04246 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:08:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07861; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:02:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07541 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 12:59:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.43] (pm3mbr5-166-234.intrepid.net [209.190.166.234]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA18925 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:04:17 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.25.20000108155801.00a75640@swva.net> References: <4.3.0.25.20000108155801.00a75640@swva.net> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:15:45 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: BD Preps - Radioactivity - Organic Calcium. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3037 >publishing this kind of thing is irresponsible, particularly when it >involves something life-threatening like radioactivity. > >--Malcolm Gardner Dear Malcolm - I believe that Greg (how Thun-esque of me! :-) mentioned much earlier that the conclusions of Maria Thun's calendar experiments have never been verified by another researcher. One conclusion is that she is doing poor observation, but another that has been put forward is that she is in a geological terrain that heightens the observable effects of the preps. (Within a valley formed by seven mountains, or something like that.) How do you feel about this assertion....AND how do you feel about Thun's calendar work? -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:35:05 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA11623 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:32:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA17793; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:26:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17698 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:25:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([203.96.93.86]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000110032946.EXMZ3144.mta3-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:29:46 +1300 Message-ID: <3879526D.755D@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:30:53 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BDNOW & BDA References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3038 Hugh Lovel wrote: > > Really Glen? > > Please, do tell us more. > > Hugh Given that the potentised preps travel easily, store well and stay effective for a long time, and seem very durable even after a degree of abuse, they are the best form of mass marketing BD preps. The biggest problem is acceptance. The recent Reganold research should make a dint in this. At present we have around 200 ha of orchards regularly using Garuda BD preps in this area and a problem of easy accessiblity to product is beginning to arise, given myself and two other suppliers are the only place they can be purchased in NZ. It appears to me that better labelling and wider distribution will allow more people to easily procure BD preps as and when they need them. Which appears to be a big criteria. At present forward thinking, phone calls and waiting for the post are the major way of buying them. Hardly C21 marketing. It seems the logical next step, and one we had been considering these last few months. Ah but business, it has so many variables. We will just have to wait and see how it all pans out. Having said all this I could restate my opening remarks as one of the big benefits of potentised preps, they can allow large numbers of people to have easy access to the preps and apply them over large areas. cheers Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:35:04 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08387 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 17:41:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA29050; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 17:35:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28937 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 17:34:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.39.alltel.net [166.102.66.39]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id QAA07623 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 16:39:37 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <005d01bf5abe$83008a40$57072cc3@m00q6c00> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 17:46:40 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3039 >Hugh: In your posting of 7th Jan you refer to your desire to implement >Steiner's wish to extend the influence of the biodynamic preps over as much >of the world as possible. There has also been a recent exchange about field >broadcasters. I realise that these need a form of calibration to fit them >to the area which they are to influence, but is there any fundamental reason >why such broadcasters couldn't be set up to benefit huge areas of the world, >at least where modern farming practices wouldn't negate their influence ? >Tony N-S. Dear Tony, The science of biodynamic field broadcasting is still in its infancy. But there is no reason we cannot cover the entire earth, even including major barren areas, by field broadcasting. It is cheap and efficient. As we work out the best geometry and so forth we'll be making broadcasters that cover many square miles at a time instead of mere 500 acre farms. And for the most part modern farming practices would not negate a field broadcaster's influence. Rather it works the other way around. Best, Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:35:07 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10143 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:42:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA06127; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:29:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from earth.ncn.net (ncn.net [199.120.120.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05949 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:26:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([206.72.53.49]) by earth.ncn.net (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA20257 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 18:22:49 -0600 Message-ID: <000901bf5b02$1d021080$313548ce@default> From: "Mike or Mona Majorowicz" To: References: <000901bf5a9d$a0e08fe0$243548ce@default> Subject: Re: ADMIN: Re: BDNow Archives Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 18:31:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3040 Actually, I've been looking for a way to search the archives also. I've been downloading large sections of the archives to try various search methods, which is probably why the traffic on the archives is so high this month. The easiest solution I can think of is to set up a version of the archives that can be viewed offline, and compress it into a zip archive. Then anyone who wants to search the archives can download the zip file, decompress it onto their local system and use their own browser and search software to peruse the archives. No need for an internet connection. I'd be interested in hearing what you're line of thought is on adding a search feature. Mike Majorowicz ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 6:06 AM Subject: ADMIN: Re: BDNow Archives > >I've noticed that the BDNow archives haven't been updated since Jan. 1. Are > >the messages still being archived or are they being sent to the bit bucket? > > > >Mike Majorowicz > > To my understanding, Mike, our server is starting a new archival > method with the new year. I'll check with them and see when the > archives will be up again. > > In the meantime, I'm working on a true search engine for msgs, so we > should e able to get more use out of the archived msgs in the near > future. > > Incidentally, the amount of traffic to the archives in a month is > truly incredible! > > Thanks for the heads up, > > > -Allan > -- > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:35:04 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18315 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:50:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23560; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:44:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from acc.haverford.edu (acc.haverford.edu [165.82.1.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA23023 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:38:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [165.82.19.116] (s116.magill.haverford.edu [165.82.19.116]) by acc.haverford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03157 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:38:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:43:30 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Bruce Bumbarger Subject: internships/summer camp Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3041 Jobseekers and summer campers: Here are the most recent job requests (and one summer camp listing) I've received. Allan asked to have them posted here; you'll also find the complete list at http://www.biodynamics.com/internship.html. Take care. Bruce New York CSA Seeks Farm Help We are hiring two energetic field workers and a CSA distribution/farmers' market manager. The pay is $150 plus per week depending on experience and performance. Housing, with shared bathroom, shower and kitchen, is provided. Workers' compensation and other legal benefits are paid. For more information and to set up an interview, or to arrange for a farm visit, please contact Stewart or Deb Ritchie, Buffalo Organics, 1821 Billington Road, East Aurora, NY 14052; 716-655-5625; e-mail: buffalocsa@hotmail.com Farm Camp Counselors Wanted The Hawthorne Valley Farm Summer Camp Program is looking for counselors for its 2000 summer season which runs from June 19 to August 13. This would be a fine opportunity for anyone wanting to combine camp counselor work with a farm, garden, and nature experience on an established biodynamic farm. There are group counselor positions working with campers 9-15 years old as well as lifeguard/beachfront positions available. We offer room and board plus a salary. For information and an application write to: Summer At Hawthorne Valley Farm Camp, 327 CR 21 C, Ghent, NY 12075; (518) 672-4790; fax: (518) 672-7608; e-mail: vsp@taconic.net; www.camppage.com/hawthorne Maine Biodynamic Farm Needs Interns Wayback Farm, a 110-acre biodynamic/organic farm with vegetable and perennial gardens, pasture, meadow, and woods, is seeking interns for the 2000 planting season; longer-term journeyperson positions are also available. We have a twenty member CSA in its ninth year. Interns may work with our cows, oxen, work horse and small scale production machinery. Our activities include cider pressing, maple syrup production, bean and grain production, milk processing, solar power usage, and sawmill operations. This year's projects will include the construction of a post and beam processing kitchen and wind-powered irrigation. For information and an application, please contact Paul Bernackey and Tracey Young, Wayback Farm, Box 144, Lincolnville Road, Belmont, ME 04952 June - August, 2000: Summer Camp at Hawthorne Valley Biodynamic Farm Children and teens ages nine to fifteen come to Hawthorne Valley Farm to stay on a working, diversified, Demeter farm and take part in barn cleaning, weeding in the large market garden, animal feeding, loading hay bales, egg collecting, and, whenever they can, bringing a newborn calf in from the hillside pastures, along with other farm activities. Experienced staff, organic/biodynamic vegetarian food prepared from scratch, and many traditional camp activities including music, swimming, hiking, and riding, all help make an enjoyable and wholesome experience. Two and four week programs available. Camps operate between June 25 and August 12. For a brochure, contact Summer at Hawthorne Valley Farm Camp, 327 CR 21 C, Ghent, NY 12075; (518)672-4790; fax: (518)672-7608; e-mail: vsp@taconic.net; www.camppage.com/hawthorne From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:35:14 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20591 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:49:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06628; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:43:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05979 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:39:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.205.68]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:43:08 +0000 Message-ID: <006901bf5b8a$05bc3c60$21ca2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: <3879526D.755D@xtra.co.nz> Subject: Re: BDNOW & BDA Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:41:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3042 Glen and others: I seem to remember a suggestion, aired in this forum as well as elsewhere, that homeopathic remedies ought to be transmissible by internet. My mind boggles but, evidently, others don't. You referred to the distribution of BD preps by telephone order and mail delivery as not being very C21 - any thoughts on whether they, too, could be distributed electronically ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:35:15 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06208 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 15:17:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18516; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 15:11:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.bulkley.net (web1.vphos.net [207.102.129.200]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18320 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 15:09:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from cybernet ([204.244.19.160]) by web1.vphos.net ; Sun, 09 Jan 2000 12:14:16 -0800 Message-ID: <003601bf5ade$239881a0$a013f4cc@bulkley.net> From: "J&J Clifford" To: Subject: Allens roots etc. Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 12:14:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF5A9B.06CA1180" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3043 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF5A9B.06CA1180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen I've posted the necessary material regarding the poster/calendar. = Just trash it if I'm too late. I'm too uncomfortable with the notion of = credit #'s on the Internet,as was your suggestion. Feel free to = enlighten me on this notion if you wish. About your waste line roots. There are numerous concoctions on the = market all no more effective then mechanical removal in the long haul at = anything except bilking you of your cash. Replacing them or lining them = with lines of sound integrity is the best. It boils down to a few = beliefs in the field. Roots do not invade sound lines. Trees that are = entirely sated for all there needs aren't usually a problem. This one = varies with different species poplar and willow being notoriously = difficult to satisfy in there zeal for water. Check out the principals = of a disposal system called Biocycle on the web. Hope the name of this = patented system doesn't raise the ire of the crew bantering about the = word Biodynamics. The cheapest, no guarantee, fix is a multifaceted one. = Think about slip lining with tubing pulled though old lines where = necessary(old fractured unjointed pipe). Practice some extraordinary = silvaculture on the perpetrators of the problem while using something = you are comfortable with in the pipe in an effort to see the plants look = elsewhere for food. Be cautious of the somewhat tenuous bioactivity in = septic tanks. You'll regret killing it. I'm of the same mind as the = Biocycle people in that traditional wastewater septic tank treatment = ideally would be outlawed. I have family in Australia who use this = system, who kid about the likelihood that someone is in the shower when = automatic sprinklers kick on. Think about using the preps in conjunction = with sound aerobic wastewater treatment and disposal by irrigation in = the hayfield or orchard. The permutations of wastewater disposal are far = reaching and all better then the status quo. Claymont sounds like a = wonderful place as does Shepherdstown. Take good care. Warm Regards Jim ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF5A9B.06CA1180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Allen
    I've posted the = necessary=20 material regarding the poster/calendar. Just trash it if I'm too late. = I'm too=20 uncomfortable with the notion of credit #'s on the Internet,as was your=20 suggestion. Feel free to enlighten me on this notion if you = wish.
    About your waste = line roots.=20 There are numerous concoctions on the market all no more effective then=20 mechanical removal in the long haul at anything except bilking you of = your cash.=20 Replacing them or lining them with lines of sound integrity is the best. = It=20 boils down to a few beliefs in the field. Roots do not invade sound = lines. Trees=20 that are entirely sated for all there needs aren't usually a problem. = This one=20 varies with different species poplar and willow being notoriously = difficult to=20 satisfy in there zeal for water. Check out the principals of a disposal = system=20 called Biocycle on the web. Hope the name of this patented  system = doesn't=20 raise the ire of the crew bantering about the word Biodynamics. The = cheapest, no=20 guarantee, fix is a multifaceted one. Think about slip lining with = tubing=20 pulled though old lines where necessary(old fractured unjointed pipe). = Practice=20 some extraordinary silvaculture on the perpetrators of the problem while = using=20 something you are comfortable with in the pipe in an effort to see the = plants=20 look elsewhere for food. Be cautious of the somewhat tenuous bioactivity = in=20 septic tanks. You'll regret killing it. I'm of the same mind as the = Biocycle=20 people in that traditional wastewater septic tank treatment ideally = would be=20 outlawed. I have family in Australia who use this system, who kid about = the=20 likelihood that someone is in the shower when automatic sprinklers kick = on.=20 Think about using the preps in conjunction with sound aerobic wastewater = treatment and disposal by irrigation in the hayfield or orchard. The=20 permutations of wastewater disposal are far reaching and all better then = the=20 status quo. Claymont sounds like a wonderful place as does = Shepherdstown. Take=20 good care.
Warm Regards
   =20 Jim
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF5A9B.06CA1180-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:35:19 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06520 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 15:45:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20585; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 15:40:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA20266 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 15:35:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.153.alltel.net [166.102.66.153]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id OAA24958 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 14:41:00 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003c01bf5930$943d2280$8c0d2cc3@m00q6c00> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 15:48:02 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3044 Tony Nelson-Smith Writes: >Allan - Sorry that my conventional scientific background should be showing >again, but the only logical consequence of your aside about using possibly >nuclear-generated power is that we should either not use electricity at all >(possible, but extremely tedious) or generate our own. In both cases, the >impact is likely to be more damaging than our share of the impact of the >generating station. Here in Wales, we have a heritage-and-green >organisation called Campaign for the Preservation of Rural Wales (CPRW). It >usually supports worthy causes, but seems to be going overboard in its >opposition to wind generators; in the past it has also opposed practically >every other means of generating electricity effectively, together with >pylons and distribution lines - yet I'll bet every member relies on >electricity for a large chunk of everyday activities. Surely that is also >true of all but a tiny proportion of BDers ? Just how are we supposed to >get hold of the stuff, then ? > Is it naive of me to ask exactly what's wrong with nuclear energy, >properly engineered and safely supervised, other than the problem of >long-term waste ? It can't be anything fundamental, since electricity is >electricity is electricity, regardless of origin; and I don't see that it >can be a philosophical objection, since the sunlight on which we all depend >arises from nuclear reactions. OK, it has unfortunate connections with >bombs; but so do blasting explosives and jet aircraft. Ploughs are made >from much the same steel as swords. Dear Tony, Nuclear power, as it exists today may be way more destructive than most people imagine. I do not say this lightly, but the issues involved are rather complex so please bear with me. Life is organized energy. Living ORGANISMS are highly organized forms of energy. Actually what we know of as substance is but energy in organized form. Let me give you some background on what I know and how I know it. Granted I studied biochemistry in college while working 3 part-time jobs. I worked a summer in Germany so I could coast through my German courses while studying subjects that required intense concentration of thought in the classroom so that I understood things and made them mine without having to store them as memorized items. I didn't take notes or study for tests, you see. I groked the material so I could get a little sleep and a ping pong or whist game in between work and study. So with all this free time I made an extracirricular study of nuclear energy. It is not like I could study biochemistry without studying inorganic chemistry in general. But I went further than that because I wanted to know, not just the relationships between atoms, but how individual atoms were built. So for no other reason than to broaden my understanding I read a variety of books on nuclear physics--everything from the nuclear fusion reactions occuring within the Sun to the transmutations in the atmosphere due to cosmic ray bombardment. The nuclear reactions in the Sun release nuclear energy as they go toward greater organization from hydrogen down to iron. These reactions involve most of the elements of importance to living organisms--including lime, silica and clay. Beyond iron nuclear fusion--the building of heavier atoms--uses up nuclear energy. Eventually the atoms get so big and heavy their complexity cannot be reliably sustained and these are your radioactive elements beyond lead and bismuth. The syncronicity on this list is pretty amazing. The very idea that this topic should come up subsidiary to my posts about the core essence of what biodynamics is all about--enlightenment, and the idea of biodynamics as a way of restoring the life forces of this world. With radioactivity we get right to the crux of why we need biodynamics so terribly much at this time. What radioactivity can and does do when it is released in a chaotic, uncontrolled fashion is it poisons the ethers. It disrupts the highly organizational patterns that interpenetrate all forms of substance. If you wanted to disrupt these resonant patterns you could hardly find anything that would do it better than radioactivity. If you were going to seed new patterns, which is what we do with the BD preps, radioactivity might be used to disrupt the old patterns. So it is not at all impossible or even improbable that what Maria Thun is asserting is true. Without checking things out with her I wouldn't know. I don't believe she used a geiger/mueller counter to take readings of radioactivity. However, she has worked with the preps so much for so long perhaps she has developed other means of determining what is going on. You know, I taught myself to distinguish four-leaf clovers from others in the patch. I've seen that BD preps affects the numbers of extra-leaf clovers in a clover patch. There was an article in BIODYNAMICS in the late seventies or early eighties about a spiderwort strategy for detecting low level emmissions of radioactivity in the vicinity of nuclear plants. The spiderwort flowers changed color with subtle increases in the incident radiation making them a more sensitive and reliable gauge of the levels of radioactivity than your usual civil defense model of geiger counter. It would be quite instructive to see how Steiner used pitchblende in his Strader Motor. > I, too, think that you're being a bit hard on Einstein. Almost every >weapon or other evil machine has been based on the fundamental work of >scientists who had no notion of that ultimate use (and whose work may >equally well have spawned many desirable and useful applications). Sure, >some of these scientists have gone on to assist with the development of >undesirable applications, but don't forget that Hitler was also hoping to >develop nuclear weapons: ironically, he might well have done had he not >driven away so many workers in the field by his ethnic cleansing ! As a >Eurpean Jew, Einstein was scarcely unbiased, as someone else has commented >in this thread. > Also, don't forget that it was Einstein who commented that if the Third >World War were to be fought with nuclear weapons, the fourth would be fought >with sticks and stones. > Tony N-S. Tony, I believe Allan was simply trying to stir things up with his polemic about Einstein. How can such stuff be taken seriously? The development of the bomb sure racheted up the tension level in the world. Whether it was good or bad? Who knows? In the end it may prove to have greatly furthered the spiritual evolution of the human race. It should be pretty obvious that Einstein was a spiritual guy. A lot of those dudes were, including Heisenberg, of course. For instance, did you know that Robert Oppenheimer, the head of the Manhattan Project that build the first bombs, was a profound spiritual seeker that carried around with him a copy of the Bhagavad gita and purportedly was reading it just prior to setting off the test bomb at Alamagordo. Yet according to Allan's logic Oppenheimer has to be right up there with Einstein as one of the greatest evil perpetrators of all time. Bah! Don't believe a word of such trash. Allan was stirring the manure barrel with a big stick trying to see if he could aerate the compost. I'm still why I got such light strokes from his tar brush, but you'll notice he reserved his worst vituperation for Einstein, who was dead and couldn't take offense and come back at Allan. In other words, it's not like Allan totally took leave of his senses. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:35:21 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA02568 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:41:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23530; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:35:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23451 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:33:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha07s013.d.shentel.net [204.111.54.13]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23520 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:41:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38788EF0.ADA572B9@LightExpression.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 08:36:48 -0500 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bio-Dynamic List Subject: Prayer and Soybeans Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3045 Greetings All! A friend recently shared this with us. There is some interesting considerations inside this for the power of prayer and its effect on the world at large. Particularly of interest may be the Monsanto consideration. Hope you enjoy! In light, Wayne ******** <<“!!”>>¿<<“!!”>>¿<<“!!”>>¿<<“!!”>>¿<<“!!”>>¿<<“!!”>> Beyondanews -- January 1, 2000 Featuring Swami’s State of the Universe Address Dear Friends: Welcome to the New Millennium -- unless you are Jewish, Chinese, Mayan or anyone else who uses a different calendar, or unless you are one of those sticklers who insist the millennium doesn’t begin until 2001. As per every year at this time, Swami Beyondananda offers his State of the Universe Address, which follows. Feel free to freely circulate this document, but also be sure that the Swami tag and website address are included. Swami Beyondananda’s State of the Universe Address 2000 Well, the New Millennium is here, and if you are reading this, I predict we have survived. The Y2K glitch has given us a great opportunity to consider the age-old question, “What are we human beings really like when the chips are down?” and face our fear that when the Big Ball dropped, we would drop the ball. With the Millennial Madness sale finally over, we can now turn our attention from the profits of doom towards that which profits everyone. Discorporate Takeovers Continue Unabated Speaking of profits of doom, as was predicted at the beginning of the year (see State of the Universe Address for 1999), the Monsanto Corporation has abandoned its terminator seed technology on orders from Above. As you may remember, the would-be know-it- alls from that corporate giant decided they wanted to own and manufacture all of the crop seeds worldwide. But a Discorporate Giant nixed the plan. Said a spokesman for the Creator, “Human beings have free will, so of course they are free to play God -- as long as God wins.” Like any spiritual transformation, Monsanto’s was an inside job. An insider working with the Rockefeller Foundation began to suffer pangs of conscience, the first symptom of awakening compassion. He began to doubt the assertions that Monsanto scientists were wiser than Creation, and decided to air his concerns at a Monsanto board meeting. He secretly instructed the press to be there (before someone else could secretly instruct them not to), and he spilled the soybeans. By the time the spin doctors arrived on the scene, it was too late. The terminator technology had expired. Personally, I see it as a result of all those mass prayers and meditations. The blisskrieg is beginning to pay off. Even the tobacco industry has suffered a bout of conscience, and if this persists it means that any institution is suceptible to awakened compassion. It is said that when a certain number in any group attain Buddha consciousness -- known as the Hundreth Monk theory -- the organization will transform too. And our loving prayers help. The rising esteem from all that love makes the atmosphere more favorable for enlightening to strike. The discorporate takeover is also being felt in our hospitals and HMOs. While the medical establishment insists that nothing works better than allopathic medicine, critics are agreeing that indeed nothing often does. Some recent studies indicate that placebos have higher success rates than certain established medical procedures! And why shouldn’t they? Since the atom is 99.99% empty space, and we are comprised entirely of atoms, are we not more nothing than anything? Although medical authorities scoff at the notion (“Invisible medicine? I just can’t see it”), just wait until the HMOs catch on. I predict we’ll see more and more practitioners sending their patients off with a placebo and a prayer. And if you still need proof of the power of prayer, you need only look as far as the baseball world. In Cleveland this past summer, a group of East Indians of the Buddhist persuasion -- the Cleveland Indian Indians they called themselves -- adopted popular outfielder Manny Ramirez, who ended up with more runs batted in than anyone in over sixty years, a feat attributable in part to Buddhist chanting. Each time Ramirez would come up with runners in scoring position, he would hear those devoted fans chanting “oh Manny bat me home, oh Manny bat me home, oh Manny bat me home” -- and more often than not, he did. I would look for Spirit to materialize even more in 2000. The blisskrieg will continue unabated as more and more of us convert our karmas from internal combustion to esteem. This will drive the price of lie-ability insurance sky high. The more the underlying truth comes out through individual awakening, the more certain companies will have to pay to insure their ability to lie. (If you think legal advice is expensive, it’s nothing compared to the cost of illegal advice.) As more of us decide to put outcome ahead of income, lie-ability will no longer be an asset. Finally, the Discorporate Powers, working through our own prayers and actions, will transform the arms race. In 2000, look for the nations of the world to give up the foolish notion of disarmament, and focus instead on learning and teaching the appropriate use of arms. Yes, that’s right. Ever since I was refused service at a fancy restaurant years ago for not wearing a sportjacket, I have been a staunch supporter of the right to bare arms. No one wants to be without arms. Look at Venus di Milo -- beautiful to look at, but she can’t do a thing! The Creator gave us arms for a reason, and free will to choose what we do with them. So this year, I predict the first arms exchanges between formerly-warring parties will take place. On my tell-a- vision screen, I see rival armies proudly walking towards each other as their commanders issue the orders: “At ease!” “Present arms!” “Hug!” Who knows? We may be able to stop the some of the balkin’ in the Balkans, cool the ire in Ireland, and relieve the pressure around other dangerous human fault lines. Now in some areas, we will no doubt fall short in 2000. For example, I predict another Presidential election year will go by without us learning to harness the wind from all of the oratory and put it to some useful purpose. On the other hand, I see a great transformation in store for Bill Gates. As part of his settlement with the government, he will have to take one of those Radical Honesty workshops, and will end up renaming his company “Macrohard.” The Artist Formerly Known as Prince will drop that name as well, and hereafter be known as The Artist Formerly Known As the Artist Formerly Known as Prince. And the discorporate takeover will hit the airwaves in the form of a new network featuring only disembodied commentators -- the Channel Channel. There -- I’ve tossed out my predictions, and you probably will too. Because this is indeed a Universe of unlimited possibilities, so why limit ourselves? We’ve survived to a new millennium, which is great. Now it’s time to raise the bar a bit and go for “thrival” instead of mere survival. With every thought and deed we are buying futures. I say it’s time we picked one we’d like to own. * * * * Copyright 2000 by Steve Bhaerman. All rights reserved. http:www.beyondananda.com. Steve Bhaerman Lite Headed Productions 400 W. Third St., Suite D-144 Santa Rosa, CA 95401 1-800-SWAMI-BE e-mail swamib@saber.net NOW AVAILABLE! Swami’s new book, Duck Soup for the Soul, is now in its second printing! Let the Guru of Ho-ho-holy Hee-hee- healing offer his unique recipe for living louder and laughing longer! Autographed copies now available for $10 plus $3 shipping. Or, order Swami’s three audio tapes ($33 plus $3 shipping) and get Duck Soup FREE! To order by mail and get a catalogue of Swami's products write to Lite Headed Productions, 400 W. Third St., Suite D-144, Santa Rosa, CA 95401. To place a credit card order, call Swami's special product ordering line at 1-800-SWAMI- BE or visit Swami ‘s website at http://www.beyondananda.com. Or, ask for it at bookstores. Remember, laughter is physically healing because it causes the blood vessels to dilate, which beats having them die early.! SWAMI AND STEVE ON THE “OUTERNET” Meanwhile, the Swami and I are getting in gear for some totally new projects in ‘00, including a regular radio spot, Karma Talk with Swami Beyondananda. Watch this space for updates! This month, if you live in Florida or California (or, if you are visiting) you can catch the Swami and I on the “outernet.” On Sunday, January 16th, we’ll be at Unity of Monterey, where I will be doing a church service and workshop on how to bring more healing humor into your life. For information, please call (831) 372-0457 or email unityhrt2hrt@worldnet.att.net. On Saturday evening, January 22nd, the Swami will be emceeing an exciting program in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida called Think Positive, America. Yes, I know what you are thinking. You’re positive things are negative. Well, the Swami will show you how laughter makes life easier and helps you do what good photographers do: use the negative to develop. It’s an evening of music, dance, children’s choirs, comedy and other fun. For more info or for tickets, please call (954) 925-6615 or check out poslink@bellsouth.net. Finally, on Friday evening, February 4th, the Swami will be doing a performance in Nevada City, California, and on Saturday, February 5th, I will be doing an all-day workshop on the Alchemy of Humor where participants will learn to use the tools of the comedian to write their “laugh story.” A great way to gain perspective, raise your energy level and bring more healing humor into your life. For more info, please call Catherine Stovall at (530) 272-4013 or email her at azuli@nccn.net. SWAMI QUIZ WINNER AND HONORABLE MENTION Next, we come to Swami’s quiz for December. And the question was, “What is it called when someone makes predictions for money?” And Swami’s answer: Propheteering. The first with the right answer was Rich Hadsock, followed by Steve Logan and Michael Miller. But there were some other interesting answers. A “Billy Crank” (his name, not mine) suggested the obvious “fortune telling,” as did Luke Estreich. Someone named Terry varied that as “fortunate teller.” Dave Elfelt thought it was “profitsizing and forcashing.” Sheela offered “A profit-see!” Buck Ware was more explicit, calling it a “profitic insight.” So keep playing! May your month be full of life, love and light -- and may the FARCE be with you. Steve Bhaerman NOTE. Despite rumors that he sold Spam multilevel through a company called Spamway, Swami dislikes spam as much as you do. So if you want to be removedfrom this newsletter mailing list, please notify us by simply saying REMOVE. Thank you! Visit us at http:www.beyondananda.com. <<“!!”>>¿<<“!!”>>¿<<“!!”>>¿<<“!!”>>¿<<“!!”>>¿<<“!!”>> -- *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:35:21 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08394 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 17:41:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA28996; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 17:35:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28562 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 17:30:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.39.alltel.net [166.102.66.39]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id QAA00041 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 16:35:32 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3875B512.17381D7D@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 17:42:35 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD Preps - Radioactivity - Organic Calcium Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3046 James Thompson writes: >Dear Cramer Gefren, Malcolm Gardner and List. > >Thanks Malcolm for your very interesting posts from Pfeiffer and about >Werner Heisenberg. > >There are references from Maria Thun about various aspects of >Radioactivity in her booklet "Working with the Stars" the 1987 >edition. (1) >A quick summary from this booklet reveals that " radioactive substances >and different kinds of radiation do not penetrate into the Cow Horn >which is used for two of the preparations" >and she also writes >"This year we have received many reports telling us that where there >have been regular sprayings during the last few years the measured >radiation was considerably less than in neighbouring areas. Similar >results have been reported about compost heaps treated with the >preparations" (2) > >The regular sprayings mentioned here are of the "Manure concentrate of >Maria Thun" >which is a base of cow manure to which is added finely ground organic >calcium in the form of eggshells ,also basalt dust and all the BD >Preparations. Recipe available in the BD Literature. > >Further on >In our experiments with growing plants on a sandy soil, those that had >been grown on a soil treated with egg shells and ground basalt showed no >Strontium 90" - (3) Dear James, Let me just interject a few comments in this wonderfully informative post. The sort of lifeless physics taught in university classrooms rarely covers the debates raging in the upper echelons of the physics world. What is taught is that there are four forcess, electromagnetism, gravity, the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force. There is occasional debate that there might be a fifth force, and indeed some measurements on both the fine and the gross levels have suggested there may be a levitational force, but this is not taken as proven. However, as you point out the physics of spiritual science recognizes forces as occurring between opposite polarities, and thus there are but three forces, electricity, magnetism and the third, nuclear force. Boy is physics in a cocked hat with its lumping together of electricity and magnetism and then the effort to explain nuclear force with strong and weak nuclear force, gravity and the possibility of levity! Interestingly enough, however, it was only back in the thirties when Einstein was hot on the trail of a unified field theory that the posibility of three forces was considered seriously. Back then the discussion was of electricity, magnetism and gravity. And the possibility of field theory covering not only electromagnetic fields but electrogravitic and magnetogravitic fields--even electromagnetogravitic fields--was considered. It didn't work, and why? Because nuclear force was understood and acknowledged when it worked toward the gravitational pole but not towards the levitational pole. After all, the nuclear force arises between the opposite poles of gravity and levity (down and up). Had they been looking at things in terms of electromagnetonuclear force their calculations might have worked out. I touched on this matter in my book A BIODYNAMIC FARM, page 104. It was also in the thirties that Paul Dirac compellingly demonstrated in a mathematical way that there had to be an insubstantial sort of mother matrix/medium--an ether, but as Michelson and Morely showed with no substantiality, no etheric wind--co-existing with matter. That was another of those ideas that were tossed around and shrugged at and the world of physics went on. Now with chaos theory we are coming back around to these ideas from a different viewpoint. Particularly with Benoit Mandelbrot's groundbreaking work with fractals and fractional dimensional concepts a mathematics of living processes developed. And as this has been encompassed in the larger field of chaos physics all kinds of possibilities come to light about the way Dirac's ether works. It is interesting to note that living organisms with their build-up from alkaline amino acids and proteins to RNA and DNA and genes and chromosomes and cells and tissues follow fractal rules in their development. In other words they live between what we know of as the dimensions. They live between front and back, left and right and up and down--or if you prefer they live between positive and negative (electricity), north and south (magnetism) and levity and gravity (nuclear force) in what might as well be called an electromagnetonuclear field. Here's an excerpt from what I posted to Tony in regard to radioactivity, and then I gotta go: What radioactivity can and does do when it is released in a chaotic, uncontrolled fashion is it poisons the ethers. It disrupts the highly organizational patterns that interpenetrate all forms of substance. If you wanted to disrupt these resonant patterns you could hardly find anything that would do it better than radioactivity. If you were going to seed new patterns, which is what we do with the BD preps, radioactivity might be used to disrupt the old patterns. So it is not at all impossible or even improbable that what Maria Thun is asserting is true. Without checking things out with her I wouldn't know. I don't believe she used a geiger/mueller counter to take readings of radioactivity. However, she has worked with the preps so much for so long perhaps she has developed other means of determining what is going on. You know, I taught myself to distinguish four-leaf clovers from others in the patch. I've seen that BD preps affects the numbers of extra-leaf clovers in a clover patch. There was an article in BIODYNAMICS in the late seventies or early eighties about a spiderwort strategy for detecting low level emmissions of radioactivity in the vicinity of nuclear plants. The spiderwort flowers changed color with subtle increases in the incident radiation making them a more sensitive and reliable gauge of the levels of radioactivity than your usual civil defense model of geiger counter. It would be quite instructive to see how Steiner used pitchblende in his Strader Motor. Best, Hugh Lovel > >However, from Pfeffer's quotation given by Malcolm, - why would the >oak bark preparation become radioactive? it would appear that there is >a very strong relationship between organic Calcium and Radioactivity. >Strontium 90 being deposited in the Bones would be one example which >springs to mind, >and another which I recall from notes taken in 1991, a TV program >called ' Beyond 2000' screened a piece about an extract of Acorns >(organic calcium?) which was added to Calcium Chloride and used to >precipitate heavy metal molecules from waste water solutions from the >production of Uranium Oxide. resulting in a complete recovery of >radioactive uranium and other heavy metals from solution. > >Steiner talks about "....the hidden alchemy in the organic process, " >and how limestone, the chalky nature can be transmuted if it is working >rightly in the organic process..... (4) > >So we have a polarity of sorts here, Transmutation of the elements in >the inorganic sphere giving radioactivity, and transmutation of >Calcium in the organic sphere giving nitrogen . > >and while on the subject of radioactivity: > > Steiner also predicted the future use of what he called "The Third >Force" and made drawings of a machine which was called "The Strader >Machine" and it is important to note - THIS MACHINE HAD A RADIOACTIVE >COMPONENT, namely Radium (remember this is about 1912) in the form of >Pitchblende. The original drawings are either lost or not yet >available, but accurate secondary copies were made by Schmeidel and >are available on line via:- > >http://website.lineone.net/~coolbyte/anthro/strader.htm > >The Rudolf Steiner Publishing Company also published some incomplete >notes regarding this. (5) > >The time frame in which Steiner indicated this technology would be >discovered was exactly the time in which World War II was raging. >Steiner emphasised the links of this future technology to Morality, in >other words he indicated that the Strader Machine would require a Moral >Impulse from Man to initiate a safe chain reaction , of course he also >mentioned what would happen if there was no moral impulse, there can >hardly be so in wartime -( but Heisenberg must surely be the exception) >- and the resulting development without this moral impulse, is, as we >all know, the nuclear world, of the present. > >The Moral Pole of safe atomic energy has yet to be developed, it is the >safe energy source of the future. > >Back to Agriculture:- > >Steiner elaborates on the mathematical relationships between Light Ether >and Life Ether in his Warmth Course Lectures (6) > >In the realm of Sub nature, we have the so-called ' fallen ' ethers >manifesting as follows:- > >Fallen Light ether - Electricity >Fallen Tone ether - Magnetism >Fallen Life ether - Third Force (which includes radioactivity) > >If we increase the etheric forces in a specific area, we can also >measure the corresponding increase in the "fallen ethers" >So if we have radioactive fallout, we also have an increase - beyond >normal bounds - of Life Ether >and here is the danger, because the Life Ether (from the Sun) must be >kept within bounds, this is done by the ozone layer. (7) > >Life Ether has an affinity for organic matter, and is repelled by >inorganic matter, this being the basis for pioneering experimental work >in "Orgone Energy" by scientist Wilhelm Reich, his "Orgone Accumulator" >actually being a device which layered inorganic and organic materials >the more layers the stronger the accumulation, the outer layer organic, >the inner inorganic. >However as he found out, it is very dangerous to add any radioactive >substance to this, the resulting "feedback" if that is the word, caused >such an increase in Life Ether, that his workers became ill.(8) >Life ether also works very closely with Tone ether, both having a >centripetal (suction) action . >Reich was unable to distinguish or separate the two clearly, lumping >them together in the general term "Orgone Energy" He did however develop >a motor? but sealed this work until 50 years after his death. > > >My previous post about the relationship between the Oak Bark >preparation and the Light Ether (or more precisely the Entities living >in the formative forces of Light Ether) { 20-11-98, L.2.2 Study Notes >(J.T.1) }can now be seen in a larger context in the relationship of >that Light Ether to the Life ether, the correspondence being the same >as the relationship between imaginary numbers in mathematics to super >imaginary numbers Where there is a single polarity between Warmth Ether >and Tone Ether - if one is plus the other must be minus, there would >appear to be a double polarity between Life Ether and Light Ether >expressed mathematically in superimaginary and imaginary numbers. > >If we have Radioactivity -It would appear we also need excess Calcium >in its organic form to "balance out" or "lock up" or neutralise its >effects.However when the limits are reached, the organic calcium itself >becomes radioactive. There is an intimate relationship between organic >Calcium and the Light ether, and its "polarity" the Life Ether together >with its sub-earthly manifestation - radiation. > >The Etheric Formative forces as they work through the Solar System as >outlined by Dr. Wachsmuth (9.) >are worth bearing in mind again > >A Primary polarity of LIFE ETHER between the Sun and the Earth > >Inner Planets >Moon - Tone Ether >Planetary Venus - Light Ether >Planetary Mercury - Warmth Ether > >Outer Planets >Mars - Tone Ether >Jupiter - Light Ether >Saturn - Warmth Ether > >Bearing in mind the relationships between Warmth Ether (working >centrifugally - expansively) >and Tone Ether (Working centripetally - contractively) we can see that >there is a polarity between the Moon and Saturn >Thus for the germination of seeds, at least those which germinate >quickly, if we add water (carrier of the Tone Ether) and warmth (carrier >of the Warmth Ether) when the Moon is in opposition to Saturn, we get a >very balanced working of formative forces into the seed Chaos, and the >result is also a very balanced plant. >However as all gardeners know, seeds sometimes germinate according to >their own schedule, the elemental beings of nature having the last say >in the matter. > >JT > > > > > >1. Working with the Stars - 1987 Maria and Matthias K. Thun 1987 - >ISBN 0 906155 23 1 > Landthorn Press. >2. Above - p. 9 >3. Above - p.11 >4. Agriculture - Rudolf Steiner p. 98 third Edition 1974. >5. Beitrage zur Rudolf Steiner Gesamtausgbe Nr.107- 1991 > "Der Strader-Apparat" see webpage. >6. Warmth Course, Rudolf Steiner - Lecture XII - 12 March 1920. >7. The Etheric Formative Forces in Cosmos Earth and Man - Guenther >Wachsmuth - Vol 1 > 1932 - Chapter VII p. 126. >8. The Oranur Experiment - first report 1947 - 1951 Wilhelm Reich >- Orgone Institute press. >9. The Etheric World in Science, Art and Religon - Guenther Wachsmuth >1927. Part1, Chapter 1. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:35:28 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20932 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08249; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:53:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from enif.involved.com ([155.229.27.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07556 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:48:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from SyGate ([206.136.47.50]) by enif.involved.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61049U4500L450S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:51:05 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000110085330.0096a180@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:53:30 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Re: OFF: Dealing w/ tree roots and septic pipes In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3047 I dont agree with Hugh, I think copper is dangerous. Copper ions are well known as a plant poison, copper sulfate is often used. Even small amounts of copper ion are poisionous to algae. So I can imagine that they poison tree roots. But copper ion, in salt form, are different from copper ores that are insoluable crystals. So I dont know if the deep earth crystal discussion fits. Obviously if you use a plant poison, some plants (presumably the trees) will be weakened. Whether is affects the surounding biosphere, I couldnt say. Realize that the functioning of your septic tank depends on bacterial action to break down wastes. You do not want to risk poisoning off your microbial life. In fact, septic tank dealers sell microbial starter cultures. The bacteria are tough but they can be damaged by houshold chemicals (borax?, solvents), not to mention pesticides. >With copper you have something that tends to work downward through the >water table into geological basin formations and crystalize at some depth. >Remember how Steiner says this crystalizing force is strongest in mid >winter and is stronger the deeper you go into the earth. Well the formation >of copper ore deposits within the earth are good examples of what Steiner >is talking about. So I wouldn't worry TOO much about copper as it tends to >work downward and crystalize in the depths. >If your septic tanks are >contaminating your drinking water already then you have another kind of problem. ==================== David Robison Stellar Processes 1033 SW Yamhill Suite 405 Portland, OR 97205 (503) 827-8336 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:35:39 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10900 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 21:21:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12411; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 21:14:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12354 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 21:14:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha07s099.d.shentel.net [204.111.54.99]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23484 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 21:22:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3879415A.9C46454D@LightExpression.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 21:18:02 -0500 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF: Dealing w/ tree roots and septic pipes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3048 Hi Allan! I know that locally the folks with the town maintenance department talk about relining the old terracotta pipes. They rooter them out and then have a plastic liner which is "snaked" through the existing pipes and the problem is forever solved -- so long as the plastic holds up. You might inquire with local municipalities as to a source for this service. Would most likely have decent costs involved -- but I do not believe that you will find another way of dealing with it short of digging up the lines and replacing with something that is from the world of plastic. Good luck! Wayne Allan Balliett wrote: > Here at Claymont there are several older homes that are having > repeated problems with tree roots clogging septic drains (drains are > both clay and poly pipe) There's never much cash here, so visits from > the 'rooter man' are not really practical. One fellow here has > recommended pouring COPPER down the drains regularly to kill the tree > roots back. This doesn't seem very prudent to me, but I've come to > hate erroring on the side of caution at the edge of > community-environmentalism-economics. (I encourage caution, I just > don't want to buy pass a solution because my caution was unfounded.) > > Any suggestions on the copper or better solution w.b. appreciated. > > Thanks -Allan > -- -- *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:35:40 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03517 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:27:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01732; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:22:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01658 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.7.87]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.117.11); Sun, 9 Jan 2000 16:26:28 +0000 Message-ID: <005d01bf5abe$83008a40$57072cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: Re: BD Now! and the BDA Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 16:18:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3049 Hugh: In your posting of 7th Jan you refer to your desire to implement Steiner's wish to extend the influence of the biodynamic preps over as much of the world as possible. There has also been a recent exchange about field broadcasters. I realise that these need a form of calibration to fit them to the area which they are to influence, but is there any fundamental reason why such broadcasters couldn't be set up to benefit huge areas of the world, at least where modern farming practices wouldn't negate their influence ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:35:53 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA15661 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 06:12:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA11880; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 06:05:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA11684 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 05:59:53 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.c3.c3a41f54 (4263) for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 06:04:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 06:04:26 EST Subject: Re: BDNOW & BDA To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3050 In a message dated 1/9/00 10:37:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, Garuda@xtra.co.nz writes: << Dan I posted something to the list around Xmas. Also put J reganold in the search engine and it should appear quickly. Glen A >> Tried that and got the ATTRA article which references articles in my previous post. Dan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:38:07 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20485 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:44:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05905; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:38:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05397 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:34:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.141] (pm3mbr2-166-108.intrepid.net [209.190.166.108]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA15379 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:39:16 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:09:01 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: internships/summer camp Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3051 Thanks so very much, Bruce! -Allan :-) -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:38:08 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05125 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:56:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12421; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:50:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.71]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12315 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:49:22 -0500 (EST) From: JLacome@aol.com Received: from JLacome@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.b4.b45ede90 (7401) for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:53:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:53:49 EST Subject: weeds To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3052 Does anyone know what a large amount of sorrel or shamrock (oxalis) growing in my soil is indicative of? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:38:16 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19084 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:28:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26898; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26695 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:19:42 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp299.cy-net.net [208.21.195.108]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27134 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:24:49 -0600 Message-Id: <200001101524.JAA27134@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:23:41 -0600 Subject: Organic workers ad Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3053 I didn't know exactly what to call the subject line, but on another list, someone posted a url for college kids who are looking to work organic farmsteads this summer. Maybe someone with a biodynamic apprentice program could get help from here also. I have not been to the site itself, just passing along information. "http://web.iquest.net/ofma/p&s.htm">Click here: OFMA Classified Ads:< Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 12:38:16 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18606 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:03:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24733; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:58:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24630 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.141] (pm3mbr3-166-141.intrepid.net [209.190.166.141]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19721 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:02:14 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:53:36 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: BDNOW & BDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3054 If this paper is the one that Reganold partnered on with two other researchers, the primary one being Lynn ???, I've got that paper here somewhere. It's on the measurable differences between BD compost and conventional compost, in process and in product. As I find the time, I'll post more information. As far as I know this report is not published on the web or elsewhere. If I recall correctly, I was asked to not reprint or quote publicly from it until it has been published. Is this the one, Glen/Dan? -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 13:16:19 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24256 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:16:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12247; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:10:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12042 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:08:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([210.55.179.212]) by mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000111181313.GAES3352759.mta4-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:13:13 +1300 Message-ID: <387B72FE.6840@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:14:23 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNOW Subject: What would BD be in the future Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3055 > What you propose sounds valid - and your products *do* taste good. But > if you want to call the farm BioDynamic, it seems you have to have your > methods approved by Demeter and entered into the certified BD canon. > I disagree. Biodynamics could be said to be much more than Demeter. Firstly it means Biological Forces and therefore any farming that involves the conscious use of the creative forces actually fits its description. The Agriculture course was just the start of things and Demeter has built its structure around that. So it is limited to a 1920s understanding of how these forces can be used. I will also suggest that 95% of the BD/DFemter farmers do not have a clue about the real nature of the biodynamic forces RS was talking about and how to consciously work with them. So in fact Demeter is a methodology trademark not a Biodynamic trademark. Demeter is a defined state of practise, Biodynamics is not, and one reason the BDAs should not have sole right to the name. demeter does not represent the sate of the art in Biodynamics presently and as time and expertise progresses it will only become more dislocated from the it. Just as we have a need for threefold everything, so Demeter is the economic sphere, while Biodynamics is actually the spiritual sphere, with the BDAs being the cultural sphere. What we have with the BDA & Demeter trying to own/'safeguard' the word Biodynamics is the economic sphere again trying to take over the spiritual. If you want to see what that does, look at NZ BD history for the last 20 years. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 11 13:20:16 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24375 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:20:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12832; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:14:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.b4.co.uk (root@[194.207.192.27]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12339 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:11:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [212.38.171.235] ([212.38.171.144]) by ns1.b4.co.uk (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA28553 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:22:22 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: mark.es@mail.aecb.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004d01bf5c53$87550440$b3102cc3@m00q6c00> References: <004d01bf5c53$87550440$b3102cc3@m00q6c00> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:18:52 +0100 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Mark Moodie Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Not your average brain surgeons! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3056 > I'm reminded by your mention of first-year chemical analysis of a >not-quite-brain-surgeon in my class. We were doing the brown-ring test for >(?)nitrate (my wet chemistry is now very rusty!). The instructions read >"now carefully pour concentrated sulphuric acid down the side of the >test-tube". I watched in horror as he carefully poured it down the OUT side >of the tube and it dripped off onto his nice brown shoes. >Tony N-S. You may have a contender for the Darwin awards.... These awards are given each year to bestow upon (the remains of) that individual, who through single-minded self-sacrifice, has done the most to remove undesirable elements from the human gene pool. And now, we proudly present the 1999 "Natural Selection" awards: 4th RUNNER-UP: Goes to a San Anselmo, California man who died when he hit a lift tower at the Mammoth Mountain ski area while riding down the slope on a foam pad. 22-year old David Hubal was pronounced dead at Central Mammoth Hospital. The accident occurred about 3 a.m., the Mono County Sheriff's Department said. Hubal and his friends apparently had hiked up a ski run called Stump Alley and undid some yellow foam protectors from lift towers, said Lt. Mike Donnelly of the Mammoth Lakes Police department. The pads are used to protect skiers who might hit towers. The group apparently used the pads to slide down the ski slope and Hubal crashed into a tower. It has since been investigated and determined the tower he hit was the one with its pad removed. 3rd RUNNER-UP: Goes to poacher Marino Malerba of Spain, who shot a stag standing above him on an overhanging rock. He was killed instantly when the dead animal fell on him. 2nd RUNNER-UP: "Man loses face at party". A man at a West Virginia party (probably related to the man in Arkansas who used the 22 bullet to replace the fuse in his pick-up truck) popped a blasting cap into his mouth and bit down, triggering an explosion that blew off his lips, teeth, and tongue. Jerry Stromyer, 24, of Kincaid, bit the blasting cap as a prank during the party late Tuesday night, said Cpl. M.D. Payne. "Another man had it in an aquarium hooked to a battery and was trying to explode it", said Payne. "It wouldn't go off and this guy said I'll show you how to set it off." He put it into his mouth, bit down and it blew all his teeth out and his lips and tongue off, Payne said. Stromyer was listed in guarded condition Wednesday with extensive facial injuries, according to a spokesperson at Charleston Area Medical Division. "I just can't imagine anyone doing something like that" Payne said. 1st RUNNER-UP: Doctors at Portland University Hospital said an Oregon man shot through the skull by a hunting arrow is lucky to be alive and will be released soon from the hospital. Tony Roberts, 25, lost his right eye last weekend during an initiation into a men's rafting club, Mountain Men Anonymous (probably known now as Stupid Mountain Men Anonymous) in Grant's Pass, Oregon. A friend tried to shoot a beer can off his head, but the arrow entered Robert's right eye. Doctors said that had the arrow gone 1 millimeter to the left, a major blood vessel would have been cut and Roberts would have died instantly. Neurosurgeon Doctor Johnny Delashaw at the University Hospital in Portland said the arrow went through 8 to 10 inches of brain with the tip protruding at the rear of his skull, yet somehow managed to miss all major blood vessels. Delashaw also said that had Roberts tried to pull the arrow out on his own he surely would have killed himself. Roberts admitted afterwards he and his friends had been drinking that afternoon. Said Roberts, "I feel so dumb about this". No charges have been filed, but the Josephine County district attorney's office said the initiation stunt is under investigation. Now THIS YEAR'S WINNER: The late John Pernicky and his friend, the late Sal Hawkins, of the great state of Washington, decided to attend a local Metallica concert at the George Washington amphitheater. Having no tickets (but having had 18 beers between them), they thought it would be easy to "hop" over the nine foot fence and sneak into the show. They pulled their pick-up truck over to the fence and the plan was for Mr. Pernicky, (who was 100-pounds heavier than Mr. Hawkins) to hop the fence and then assist his friend over. Unfortunately for Mr. Pernicky, there was a 30-foot drop on the other side of the fence. Having heaved himself over, he found himself crashing through a tree. His fall was abruptly halted (and broken, along with his arm) by a large branch that snagged him by his shorts. Dangling from the tree with a broken arm, he looked down and saw some bushes below him. (Possibly figuring the bushes would break his fall, he removed his pocket knife and proceeded to cut away his shorts to free himself from the tree. Finally free, Mr. Pernicky crashed into Holly bushes. The sharp leaves scratched his ENTIRE body and now, without the protection of his shorts, a holly branch penetrated his rectum. To make matters worse, on landing, his pocketknife penetrated his thigh 3 inches. Mr. Hawkins, on seeing his friend in considerable pain and agony, decided to throw him a rope and pull him to safety by tying the rope to the pick-up truck and slowly driving away. However, in his drunken state, he put the truck into reverse and crashed through the fence landing on his friend and killing him. Police arrived to find the crashed pick-up with its driver thrown 100 feet from the truck and dead at the scene from massive internal injuries. Upon moving the truck, they found John under it, half-naked, scratches on his body, a holly stick in his rectum, a knife embedded in his thigh, and his shorts dangling from a tree branch 25-feet in the air. All the best MARK MOODIE mark.es@aecb.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:46:11 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24959 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:46:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08289; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:40:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18359 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:06:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d146.infoserve.net [199.175.157.146]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA16182 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:15:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000e01bf5c68$87a42920$929dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:16:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3057 Thanks Glen for pointing out the 3-foldness of Demeter, Biodynamics and ABA. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Glen Atkinson To: BDNOW Date: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 10:19 AM Subject: What would BD be in the future >> What you propose sounds valid - and your products *do* taste good. But >> if you want to call the farm BioDynamic, it seems you have to have your >> methods approved by Demeter and entered into the certified BD canon. >> > >I disagree. Biodynamics could be said to be much more than Demeter. >Firstly it means Biological Forces and therefore any farming that >involves the conscious use of the creative forces actually fits its >description. The Agriculture course was just the start of things and >Demeter has built its structure around that. So it is limited to a 1920s >understanding of how these forces can be used. I will also suggest that >95% of the BD/DFemter farmers do not have a clue about the real nature >of the biodynamic forces RS was talking about and how to consciously >work with them. So in fact Demeter is a methodology trademark not a >Biodynamic trademark. > >Demeter is a defined state of practise, Biodynamics is not, and one >reason the BDAs should not have sole right to the name. demeter does not >represent the sate of the art in Biodynamics presently and as time and >expertise progresses it will only become more dislocated from the it. > >Just as we have a need for threefold everything, so Demeter is the >economic sphere, while Biodynamics is actually the spiritual sphere, >with the BDAs being the cultural sphere. What we have with the BDA & >Demeter trying to own/'safeguard' the word Biodynamics is the economic >sphere again trying to take over the spiritual. If you want to see what >that does, look at NZ BD history for the last 20 years. > >Glen A. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:46:20 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24975 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:46:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08346; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:40:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20547 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:28:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-67.24.alltel.net [166.102.67.24]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id NAA08565 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:33:53 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:41:07 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Off: more on the lighter side Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3058 Comprehending Engineers - Take One > ****************************** > Two engineering students were walking across campus when one said, "Where > did you get such a great bike?" > > The second engineer replied, "Well, I was walking along yesterday minding > my own business when a beautiful woman rode up on this bike. She threw the > bike to the ground, took off all her clothes and said, "Take what you > want." > > "The second engineer nodded approvingly, "Good choice; the clothes > probably wouldn't have fit." > > > Comprehending Engineers - Take Two > ***************************** > To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is > half empty. To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. > > > Comprehending Engineers --Take Three > ******************************** > A pastor, a doctor and an engineer were waiting one morning for a > particularly slow group of golfers. The engineer fumed, "What's with these > guys? We must have been waiting for 15 minutes!" The doctor chimed in, "I > don't know, but I've never seen such ineptitude! "The pastor said, "Hey, > here comes the greenskeeper. Let's have a word with him." > > [dramatic pause] > > "Hi George. Say, what's with that group ahead of us? They're rather slow, > aren't they?" > > The greenskeeper replied, "Oh, yes, that's a group of blind firefighters. > They lost their sight saving our clubhouse from a fire last year, so we > always let them play for free anytime." > > The group was silent for a moment. > > The pastor said, "That's so sad. I think I will say a special prayer for > them tonight. The doctor said, "Good idea. And I'm going to contact my > ophthalmologist buddy and see if there's anything he can do for them." > The engineer said, "Why can't these guys play at night?" > > Comprehending Engineers-Take Four > ******************************** > There was an engineer who had an exceptional gift for fixing all things > mechanical. After serving his company loyally for over 30 years, he > happily retired. Several years later the company contacted him regarding > a seemingly impossible problem they were having with one of their > multimillion dollar machines. > > They had tried everything and everyone else to get the machine to work but > to no avail. In desperation, they called on the retired engineer who had > solved so many of their problems in the past. > > The engineer reluctantly took the challenge. He spent a day studying the > huge machine. At the end of the day, he marked a small "x" in chalk on a > particular component of the machine and stated, "This is where your > problem is". > > The part was replaced and the machine worked perfectly again. > > The company received a bill for $50,000 from the engineer for his service. > They demanded an itemized accounting of his charges. > > The engineer responded briefly: > > One chalk mark $1 > Knowing where to put it $49,999 > > It was paid in full and the engineer retired again in peace. > > Comprehending Engineers-Take Five > *************************************************** > What is the difference between Mechanical Engineers and Civil Engineers? > > Mechanical Engineers build weapons, Civil Engineers build targets. > > > Comprehending Engineers-Take Six > ************************************************** > The graduate with a Science degree asks, "Why does it work?" > > The graduate with an Engineering degree asks, "How does it work?" > > The graduate with an Accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?" > > The graduate with a Liberal Arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with > that?" > > > Comprehending Engineers-Take Seven > ************************************************************ > Three engineering students were gathered together discussing the possible > designers of the human body. One said, "It was a mechanical engineer. > Just look at all the joints." > > Another said, "No, it was an electrical engineer. The nervous system has > many thousands of electrical connections." > > The last said, "Actually it was a civil engineer. Who else would run a > toxic waste pipeline through a recreational area?" > > Comprehending Engineers-Take Eight > ******************************************************** > "Normal people ... believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. > Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features > yet." > ----- Scott Adams, The Dilbert Principle > > Comprehending Engineers-Take Nine > ************************************************************ > An architect, an artist and an engineer were discussing whether it was > better to spend time with the wife or a mistress. > > The architect said he enjoyed time with his wife, building a solid > foundation for an enduring relationship. > > The artist said he enjoyed time with his mistress, because of the passion > and mystery he found there. > > The engineer said, "I like both." > > "Both?" > > Engineer: "Yeah. If you have a wife and a mistress, they will each assume > you are spending time with the other woman, and you can go to the lab and > get some work done." > > > Comprehending Engineers - Take Ten > ************************************* > An engineer was crossing a road one day when a frog called out to him and > said, "If you kiss me, I'll turn into a beautiful princess". > > He bent over, picked up the frog and put it in his pocket. > > The frog spoke up again and said, "If you kiss me and turn me back into a > beautiful princess, I will stay with you for one week." > > The engineer took the frog out of his pocket, smiled at it and returned it > to the pocket. > > The frog then cried out, "If you kiss me and turn me back into a princess, > I'll stay with you and do ANYTHING you want." > > Again the engineer took the frog out, smiled at it and put it back into > his pocket. > > Finally, the frog asked, "What is the matter? I've told you I'm a > beautiful princess, that I'll stay with you for a week and do anything you > want. Why won't you kiss me?" > > The engineer said, "Look I'm an engineer. I don't have time for a > girlfriend, but a talking frog, now that's cool." > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:46:15 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24967 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:46:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08164; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:39:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16337 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:44:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-183.s183.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.183] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 1286Ld-0002q7-00; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:48:53 -0500 Message-ID: <387B7B68.C47CBCB8@erols.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:50:16 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future References: <387B72FE.6840@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3059 Okay, Glen. What you say sounds reasonable. However - a set of standards must be developed which everyone can agree on. If not, again, we have nothing to measure ourselves against. What do you propose? R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:46:49 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25003 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:46:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08432; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:41:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20834 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:31:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-67.24.alltel.net [166.102.67.24]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id NAA14215 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:36:33 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:43:47 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: OFF: more, lighter Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3060 The Nun >>>> > >>>> > A cabby picks up a nun. She gets into the cab, and the cab driver >>>> > won't stop staring at her. She asks him why is he staring and he >>>> >replies, >>>> > "I have a question to ask you but I don't want to offend you." >>>> > >>>> >She answers, 'My dear son, you cannot offend me. When you're as old >>>> >as I am and have been a nun a long as I have, you get a chance to see >>>> >and hear just about everything. I'm sure that there's nothing you >>>> >could say or ask that I would find offensive." >>>> > >>>> >"Well, I've always had a fantasy to have a nun kiss me." >>>> > >>>> > She responds, "Well, let's see what we can do about that: >>>> >#1, you have to be single and #2 you must be Catholic." >>>> > >>>> > The cab driver is very excited and says, "Yes, I am single and I'm >>>> >Catholic too!" >>>> > >>>> > The nun says "OK, pull into the next alley." >>>> > >>>> > He does and the nun fulfills his fantasy. But when they get back on >>>> > the road, the cab driver starts crying. >>>> > >>>> > "My dear child, said the nun, why are you crying?" >>>> > >>>> > "Forgive me sister, but I have sinned. I lied, I must >>>> >confess, I'm married and I'm Jewish." >>>> > >>>> > The nun says, "That's OK, my name is Kevin and I'm on my way to a >>>> > Halloween party." From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:47:18 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25027 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:47:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08533; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:41:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21527 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:37:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-67.24.alltel.net [166.102.67.24]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id NAA27723 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:42:45 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:49:59 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: OFF: One more Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3061 Bronze Rat: A tourist wanders into a back-alley antique shop in San Francisco's Chinatown. Picking through the objects on display he discovers a detailed, life-sized bronze sculpture of a rat. The sculpture is so interesting and unique that he picks it up and asks the shop owner what it costs. "Twelve dollars for the rat, sir," says the shop owner, "and a thousand dollars more for the story behind it." "You can keep the story, old man," he replies, "but I'll take the rat." The transaction complete, the tourist leaves the store with the bronze rat under his arm. As he crosses the street in front of the store, two live rats emerge from a sewer drain and fall into step behind him. Nervously looking over his shoulder, he begins to walk faster, but every time he passes another sewer drain, more rats come out and follow him. By the time he's walked two blocks, at least a hundred rats are at his heels, and people begin to point and shout. He walks even faster, and soon breaks into a trot as multitudes of rats swarm from sewers, basements, vacant lots, and abandoned cars. Rats by the thousands are at his heels, and as he sees the waterfront at the bottom of the hill, he panics and starts to run full tilt. No matter how fast he runs, the rats keep up, squealing hideously, now not just thousands but millions, so that by the time he comes rushing up to the water's edge a trail of rats twelve city blocks long is behind him. Making a mighty leap, he jumps up onto a light post, grasping it with one arm while he hurls the bronze rat into San Francisco Bay with the other, as far as he can heave it. Pulling his legs up and clinging to the light post, he watches in amazement as the seething tide of rats surges over the breakwater into the sea, where they drown. Shaken and mumbling, he makes his way back to the antique shop. "Ah, so you've come back for the rest of the story," says the owner. "No," says the tourist, "but I was wondering if you have any bronze lawyers!" From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:47:48 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25041 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:47:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08659; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:41:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ww190.netaddress.usa.net (ww190.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.90]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22211 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:45:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 6858 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2000 19:50:23 -0000 Message-ID: <20000111195023.6857.qmail@ww190.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.90 by ww190 for [142.176.90.103] via web-mailer(M3.3.1.96) on Tue Jan 11 19:50:23 GMT 2000 Date: 11 Jan 00 11:50:23 PST From: cramer gefren To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: sorrel/Essiac X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.3.1.96) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA22214 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3062 Hi Guillermo, Just a note to say that Essiac is from a North American Indian recipe (specifically Ontario, Canada) rather than the continent of India. It would be interesting if these same plants were used for similar purposes in ayurvedic medecine. Nancy Geffken ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:48:05 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25049 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:48:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08718; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:42:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (popper1.vphos.net [207.102.129.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22292 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:45:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.156]) by popper1.vphos.net ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:50:48 -0800 Message-ID: <006101bf5c6d$24f52720$46cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <387B27B3.ED32AD05@erols.com><001901bf5c42$360a39e0$46cb6cce@netacc.net> Subject: Claymont and Demeter Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:49:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3063 Allan: You wrote: <> after making your position quite clear on seeking Demeter certification: you wish to be respectful (!?) and you want to gain a premium price. I ask because Demeter and BDA seem to me cut from the same cloth, and few have suffered as much as you have from BDA thickheadedness. IMO there is NO reason for anyone to seek "official" certification unless the intention is to abandon face-to-face marketing [CSA or local farmers market] and enter the wider anonymous marketplace where the only (dubious) assurance of biodynamic quality is the Demeter label. In the face to face situation--of which Lovel is a master--you explain your growing methods, you're there next week and the next if someone has a problem with your product, you back up your claims [of freshness, taste, etc.] with your person...you're not anonymous, you're a real guy, warts and all. Why do you suppose, Allan, that Demeter has been able, in all these years, to certify only 50 or so farms in the U.S.? Because so few farmers find certification useful. When you propose to <> from a farm where cash is in such short supply that calling the Roto-Rooter guy is a luxury you can only dream of, I am baffled. Demeter would build a bureaucracy on the backs of farmers like ourselves if we could all be drawn in. Many of us are <> but few of us want to pay and pay, season after season, for the privilege of putting that cert label on our product Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 8:37 AM Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA > >Allan: > > > >You wrote: < >very near future.>> > > > >I'd be interested to hear about your thinking on this. > > > >W > > It's as simple as this, Woody: no markets/no farms, even from Nature > Boys like myself. I need to assure a market for what we grow here and > I can benefit, just as Fred does, from the Demeter differential. As > far as I can tell, I'm in full conformity with the Demeter guidelines > (NOT THAT I'VE ACTUALLY SEEN THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ON THE WEB AND > I STILL OWE ANN $10 or whatever.) As an educational initiative and > the site of the mid-atlantic biodynamic farming and gardening > conference, I think it is only respectful to follow many of my > friends - - such as Jeff Poppen - - with the Claymont Farm and > support Demeter by example and through cash. In addition, I am > understaffed here and do not have a lot of time to use in marketing > etc. , so neighbor Victor's (Shanti Yoga) offer to sell all of our > stuff (if Demeter certified) is important to me. > > Independent certifier Jerry Collette lives here at Claymont, but I'm > not interested in certifying under him. > > Why do you ask? > > -Allan > -- > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:48:59 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25059 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:48:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08807; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:42:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24378 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:04:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.110] (pm3shep2-163-66.intrepid.net [209.190.163.66]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09317 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:09:54 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <004d01bf5c53$87550440$b3102cc3@m00q6c00> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:10:08 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Not your average brain surgeons! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3064 Thank God for the Spaniard on this list! Otherwise, I'd think it was finally substantiated that substandard genes always migrated to the West.... -Allan >>I'm reminded by your mention of first-year chemical analysis of a >>not-quite-brain-surgeon in my class. We were doing the brown-ring test for >>(?)nitrate (my wet chemistry is now very rusty!). The instructions read >>"now carefully pour concentrated sulphuric acid down the side of the >>test-tube". I watched in horror as he carefully poured it down the OUT side >>of the tube and it dripped off onto his nice brown shoes. >>Tony N-S. > >You may have a contender for the Darwin awards.... These awards are >given each year to bestow upon (the remains of) that individual, who >through single-minded self-sacrifice, has done the most to remove >undesirable elements from the human gene pool. > >And now, we proudly present the 1999 "Natural Selection" awards: > >4th RUNNER-UP: Goes to a San Anselmo, California man who died when he hit a >lift tower at the Mammoth Mountain ski area while riding down the slope on a >foam pad. 22-year old David Hubal was pronounced dead at Central Mammoth >Hospital. The accident occurred about 3 a.m., the Mono County Sheriff's >Department said. Hubal and his friends apparently had hiked up a ski run >called Stump Alley and undid some yellow foam protectors from lift towers, >said Lt. Mike Donnelly of the Mammoth Lakes Police department. The pads are >used to protect skiers who might hit towers. The group apparently used the >pads to slide down the ski slope and Hubal crashed into a tower. It has >since been investigated and determined the tower he hit was the one with its >pad removed. > >3rd RUNNER-UP: Goes to poacher Marino Malerba of Spain, who shot a stag >standing above him on an overhanging rock. He was killed instantly when the >dead animal fell on him. > >2nd RUNNER-UP: "Man loses face at party". A man at a West Virginia party >(probably related to the man in Arkansas who used the 22 bullet to replace >the fuse in his pick-up truck) popped a blasting cap into his mouth and bit >down, triggering an explosion that blew off his lips, teeth, and tongue. >Jerry Stromyer, 24, of Kincaid, bit the blasting cap as a prank during the >party late Tuesday night, said Cpl. M.D. Payne. "Another man had it in an >aquarium hooked to a battery and was trying to explode it", said Payne. "It >wouldn't go off and this guy said I'll show you how to set it off." He put >it into his mouth, bit down and it blew all his teeth out and his lips and >tongue off, Payne said. Stromyer was listed in guarded condition Wednesday >with extensive facial injuries, according to a spokesperson at Charleston >Area Medical Division. "I just can't imagine anyone doing something like >that" Payne said. > >1st RUNNER-UP: Doctors at Portland University Hospital said an Oregon man >shot through the skull by a hunting arrow is lucky to be alive and will be >released soon from the hospital. Tony Roberts, 25, lost his right eye last >weekend during an initiation into a men's rafting club, Mountain Men >Anonymous (probably known now as Stupid Mountain Men Anonymous) in Grant's >Pass, Oregon. A friend tried to shoot a beer can off his head, but the >arrow entered Robert's right eye. Doctors said that had the arrow gone 1 >millimeter to the left, a major blood vessel would have been cut and Roberts >would have died instantly. Neurosurgeon Doctor Johnny Delashaw at the >University Hospital in Portland said the arrow went through 8 to 10 inches >of brain with the tip protruding at the rear of his skull, yet somehow >managed to miss all major blood vessels. Delashaw also said that had >Roberts tried to pull the arrow out on his own he surely would have killed >himself. Roberts admitted afterwards he and his friends had been drinking >that afternoon. Said Roberts, "I feel so dumb about this". No charges have >been filed, but the Josephine County district attorney's office said the >initiation stunt is under investigation. > >Now THIS YEAR'S WINNER: The late John Pernicky and his friend, the late Sal >Hawkins, of the great state of Washington, decided to attend a local >Metallica concert at the George Washington amphitheater. Having no tickets >(but having had 18 beers between them), they thought it would be easy to >"hop" over the nine foot fence and sneak into the show. They pulled their >pick-up truck over to the fence and the plan was for Mr. Pernicky, (who was >100-pounds heavier than Mr. Hawkins) to hop the fence and then assist his >friend over. Unfortunately for Mr. Pernicky, there was a 30-foot drop on the >other side of the fence. Having heaved himself over, he found himself >crashing through a tree. His fall was abruptly halted (and broken, along >with his arm) by a large branch that snagged him by his shorts. Dangling >from the tree with a broken arm, he looked down and saw some bushes below >him. (Possibly figuring the bushes would break his fall, he removed his >pocket knife and proceeded to cut away his shorts to free himself from the >tree. Finally free, Mr. Pernicky crashed into Holly bushes. The sharp leaves >scratched his ENTIRE body and now, without the protection of his shorts, a >holly branch penetrated his rectum. To make matters worse, on landing, his >pocketknife penetrated his thigh 3 inches. Mr. Hawkins, on seeing his >friend in considerable pain and agony, decided to throw him a rope and pull >him to safety by tying the rope to the pick-up truck and slowly driving >away. However, in his drunken state, he put the truck into reverse and >crashed through the fence landing on his friend and killing him. Police >arrived to find the crashed pick-up with its driver thrown 100 feet from the >truck and dead at the scene from massive internal injuries. Upon moving the >truck, they found John under it, half-naked, scratches on his body, a holly >stick in his rectum, a knife embedded in his thigh, and his shorts dangling >from a tree branch 25-feet in the air. > >All the best > >MARK MOODIE >mark.es@aecb.net -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:49:27 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25066 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:49:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08955; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from m11.boston.juno.com (m11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.194]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09895 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:54:54 -0500 (EST) Received: "qvbuBYpd40NuYQRaxysYCTCCLpZjfAGK0ffSCTBlF/ZrqmEPR5nRag==" Received: (from laquerencia@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EV4AXV7K; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:59:31 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:00:15 -0600 Subject: Re: weeds Message-ID: <20000111.170016.18446.5.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-7 From: Deborah M Byron Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3065 Dear Hugh, Guillermo, everyone-- Is there a good resource book that summarizes which weeds like acid versus those that like alkaline soil, so that one could do some on-the-spot soil diagnosis? Thanks, Deborah ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:49:46 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25084 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:49:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09080; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:43:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10930 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:03:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.110] (pm3shep2-163-66.intrepid.net [209.190.163.66]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA21744 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:08:39 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:12:19 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: A request from Greg Willis Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3066 Greg has asked me to inform the group that several of posts he sent to listproc have not appeared on BD Now! today. I don't really have any more information than that, other than that the two of us are trying to figure out why his posts are not appearing. The point of this is that he is apparently being more responsive than he appears to be. Hopefully, everyone will know when this problem is resolved. -Allan Balliett moderator, BD Now! -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:50:10 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25132 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:50:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09236; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:44:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA16871 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:24:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.68.alltel.net [166.102.66.68]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA13897 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:30:02 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:37:18 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: The Dragon. A Correction Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3067 Folks, Earlier today I posted: >If Bob Connard wants to label his crops "Bob Connard's Biodynamic" fine. >It is clear in my >mind that he could trademark that. I don't have a >problem with it. My whole point is that >I'm pretty sure as long as >Demeter holds the trademark on biodynamic that Demeter will >have a >problem with Bob. As far as I can see that is inappropriate and I'm afraid >this sort of >thing will ruin Demeter. Don't anyone forget that there is >this humongous dragon behind >Hugh's "fluffy pawed kitten" who can't wait >to incinerate and atomize Demeter. It seems to >go back to some either >real or imagined slights in the past, the kind of thing that waters >the >seeds of blood lust--in this case civilized blood lust as in civil suits. Greg assures me his projected cremation of Demeter has nothing to do with any personal slights whether real or imagined. Rather, Greg says Demeter has stood in the way of every innovation he has tried to make in the field of biodynamics and the issue quite simply is the necessity of removing an obstruction from the path. It has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with bloodlust and that I have (sorry Greg!) painted him as a monster when he has never been such and neither wants nor needs such a reputation. His approach is one of refined civility born of well-considered imperatives, and that he has accepted the cost (of lawyers fees) necessary to settle this issue non-violently. It might be nice for everyone involved to save lawyer fees. However, since there is not one peep been heard from Demeter concerning this matter, Greg has little choice but to proceed. I guess we'll all see what happens. If it comes down to it and I have to I'm going to join Greg in paying legal fees because I use the term biodynamic at my market and in all my field broadcasting advertising and brochures now. I have no intention of giving up the right to use the term. I'd like to see Demeter survive, if they would only get their rig out of the road and stop blocking both lanes of travel. If they don't do it voluntarily there is simply no choice but to use more persuasive measures. Greg is right. It has nothing to do with slights or bloodlust. I got carried away with portraying the necessity of putting the term biodynamic in the public domain. Sorry. But it IS a necessity, and if Demeter does not recognize this? Pffft! and so sorry! Best regards, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:50:34 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25151 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:50:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09321; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:44:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cobalt3-fe.global.net.uk (cobalt3-fe.global.net.uk [195.147.250.163]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA22451 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:40:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc4s06a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.230.197] helo=compaq) by cobalt3-fe.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 127pD3-00012K-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 00:30:54 +0000 Message-ID: <387BDAD4.5FC4@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:37:24 +0000 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds References: <387B600A.ED5DAEC1@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3068 Robert Farr wrote: > > Yes - that helps a lot! > > Thank you, Guillermo. I'll let you know how it works out. > > R. --Dear Robert There are so many types of thistle do you know the latin name of the ones you have lots of.I urge you to look a book by Robert Kourik its called designing and maintaining your edible landscape naturally/metamorphic press.I have made a study about weeds so if you can tell me the actual thistle may be I can help a little more. Rex ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:51:15 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25171 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:51:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09486; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:45:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA24898 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:43:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.66] (pm3shep3-163-145.intrepid.net [209.190.163.145]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA20536 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:48:13 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:47:08 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Fw: Claymont and Demeter Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3069 > Allan: > > You wrote: <> after making your position quite clear on > seeking Demeter certification: you wish to be respectful (!?) and you want > to gain a premium price. > > I ask because Demeter and BDA seem to me cut from the same cloth, and few > have suffered as much as you have from BDA thickheadedness. IMO there is NO > reason for anyone to seek "official" certification unless the intention is > to abandon face-to-face marketing [CSA or local farmers market] and enter > the wider anonymous marketplace where the only (dubious) assurance of > biodynamic quality is the Demeter label. In the face to face situation--of > which Lovel is a master--you explain your growing methods, you're there next > week and the next if someone has a problem with your product, you back up > your claims [of freshness, taste, etc.] with your person...you're not > anonymous, you're a real guy, warts and all. > > Why do you suppose, Allan, that Demeter has been able, in all these years, > to certify only 50 or so farms in the U.S.? Because so few farmers find > certification useful. > > When you propose to <> from a > farm where cash is in such short supply that calling the Roto-Rooter guy is > a luxury you can only dream of, I am baffled. Demeter would build a > bureaucracy on the backs of farmers like ourselves if we could all be drawn > in. Many of us are <> > but few of us want to pay and pay, season after season, for the privilege of > putting that cert label on our product > > Woody > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Allan Balliett > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 8:37 AM > Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA > > > > >Allan: > > > > > >You wrote: < > >very near future.>> > > > > > >I'd be interested to hear about your thinking on this. > > > > > >W > > > > It's as simple as this, Woody: no markets/no farms, even from Nature > > Boys like myself. I need to assure a market for what we grow here and > > I can benefit, just as Fred does, from the Demeter differential. As > > far as I can tell, I'm in full conformity with the Demeter guidelines > > (NOT THAT I'VE ACTUALLY SEEN THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ON THE WEB AND > > I STILL OWE ANN $10 or whatever.) As an educational initiative and > > the site of the mid-atlantic biodynamic farming and gardening > > conference, I think it is only respectful to follow many of my > > friends - - such as Jeff Poppen - - with the Claymont Farm and > > support Demeter by example and through cash. In addition, I am > > understaffed here and do not have a lot of time to use in marketing > > etc. , so neighbor Victor's (Shanti Yoga) offer to sell all of our > > stuff (if Demeter certified) is important to me. > > > > Independent certifier Jerry Collette lives here at Claymont, but I'm > > not interested in certifying under him. > > > > Why do you ask? > > > > -Allan > > -- > > > -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:51:33 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25179 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:51:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09583; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:45:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from acc.haverford.edu (acc.haverford.edu [165.82.1.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01332 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:26:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [165.82.19.116] (s116.magill.haverford.edu [165.82.19.116]) by acc.haverford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16129 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:26:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:30:46 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Bruce Bumbarger Subject: another job offering Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3070 Here's yet another job posting. View the entire list at http://www.biodynamics.com/internship.html. Bruce NY CSA Seeks Apprentices Sisters Hill Farm is seeking two dedicated and hard working apprentices for the 2000 growing season. We are a non-profit CSA farming on 150 acres in Dutchess County, NY. The Sisters of Charity, who for more than a century have been advocates of people who are poor, own the land. Their mission recently expanded to include environmental justice; the farm is a natural extension of their work and mission. In 1999, our first year, a single acre produced 20,000 pounds of high quality vegetables. This production supported a 40 member CSA, contributed 5,000 pounds to charity; and enabled us to sell at a local farmers market. This season we will be increasing the growing area to more than two acres and our membership to 100 members. Newly established farms such as ours, under the direction of the right kind of manager, offer the best learning opportunities. We design and build a good deal of our own equipment and encourage innovation. Past projects include a custom designed and built 30x50' greenhouse, rolling row markers, and a washing and packing station for mesclun. Projects for the 2000 season include the construction of a walk-in cooler, a root cellar, a root washing station, and an in-floor heating system for the greenhouse. We offer housing on the farm, a stipend of $600 per month, and farm produce. Apprentices will be exposed to other farms through regular visits and work exchanges. We will hire a summer apprentice and a full season apprentice from April 1st-November 1st. Contact David Hambleton at Sisters Hill Farm, PO Box 22, Stanfordville, NY 12581; (914)868-7048; e-mail: < fallham9@aol.com> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:51:48 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25188 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:51:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09617; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:46:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11551 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:18:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.112] (du-148-233-78-112.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO800E5CDB9UZ@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:18:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:20:59 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Off: sea salt, was..... In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA11569 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3071 >the fact you were so tuned in to good salt that you brought me a kilo of >the best from Colima. I'm just now using the last of it and wonder where I >can get more because it was VERY excellent. > Hi Hugh: For a few months now I have being talking with a "salineros" cooperative about the posibility of exporting salt to specialized (natural foods) oriented markets/distributors in developed countries. This cooperative produces 10,000 tons per year of sun dried, unrefined sea salt from the lagoon "springs". I do not want to export bulk, but would prefer to export the salt in "final consumer" presentations, probably 1-5 pound packages. (And 10-20 kg sacks for commercial use.) Probably packaged in an artesal container to give it some value added, increase the returns for the salineros and the wholesalers and to give it some regional identity. I have being seeing the process closely, it needs really minor changes to be as good and natural as the process used in the Celtic salt. I will get samples through the production season (starting now) and will get them analize for the same constituents that are reported in the Celtic salt. The problem to market it in the US and other international is about accessing established distributors, any ideas or suggestions ? If you want some for your personal use, I can send it to you, but I am afraid that sending a parcel with 5-10 kg of salt would be very expensive using public mail or other carrier services, please advice. I will be going down there at the end of the month to talk to this people and to get some salt for my own use without the Flour and Iodine that by law they are required to add. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:52:13 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25205 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:52:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09708; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:46:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12454 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:26:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca82.vthokies.net [206.153.172.82]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21180 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:10:24 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.0.25.20000111091147.00a84b90@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.25 (Beta) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:31:47 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: gardner Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3072 At 08:59 PM 1/10/00 -0600, Guillermo wrote: >My Dear Hugh: > >[snip] >b) I agree with what you are saying, how could I avoid it, I do believe in >independent thinking and independent everything. BUT, you haven't answer >my questions on how to keep Biodynamics unpolluted and free from obscure >interests, free from bogus claims and free from manipulations ?, that is >in case the term is to be placed on public domain, and nobody will ever >see that is used in a fashion true to its origins. > >Granted we can all use our physical senses to select our food, is that how >you will convince the masses on choosing to grow and eat Biodinamically >? (You'll need a lot of samples, and as things are today, you will have a >hard time competing with Coke, Dominos and Fritos, btw) > >Granted we can all develop clairvoyance and supersensible senses, but if >we all do, BD will be no longer needed, nor will Steiner's teachings, nor >will lawsuits. My questions refer to the conditions that we have today, >how will you make BD avail to the general population now and how will you >keep it from commercialism and away from charlatans now ? Dear Guillermo, You speak about keeping Biodynamics "true to its origins". I think you are combining two things here: a) the origin of the word 'biodynamic', and b) the original "impulse" given by Rudolf Steiner in his agricultural lectures. I believe, however, that these are two quite different things. As I mentioned recently, the word 'biodynamic' is a translation of a word coined in the 1930's, long after Steiner's death. It was, and still is, used especially as part of the phrase "the biodynamic method of agriculture". This phrase is somewhat misleading, however, because it suggests something fully defined, a definite set of methods given by Steiner. But this is not at all how Steiner worked. He says during another lecture series: "Those of you who have often followed my lectures will have noticed the almost complete absence of definitions--because realities cannot be grasped by their means. There are, of course, good and bad definitions--some are comprehensive, others less satisfactory. In order to understand the things of the earth, definitions may be helpful; but when it is a matter of understanding realities--above all supersensible realities--one cannot define, one must "characterize"; for then it is necessary to contemplate the facts and the beings from every possible vantage-point." (May 2, 1913) What Steiner tried to convey in his agricultural lectures was primarily *insight* into certain fundamental principles, which he *illustrated* with some concrete methods and techniques, but which he also expected would be individualized or differentiated according to the local conditions. The profound principles that he tried to convey, however, were not fully understood in the 1930's and are still not fully grasped today, and so the methods that different practitioners use today are very heterogeneous. It is difficult, therefore, to regard biodynamics as a particular "method" of agriculture that can or should be kept "unpolluted." If one does regard biodynamics that way, one opens the door to endless arguments, divisions, and even lawsuits. In my opinion, biodynamics is better considered not as a method but as a *movement*--the movement resulting from Steiner's "impulse" in 1924. The biodynamic agricultural movement thus encompasses all those people who try to understand and apply the principles and methods that Steiner articulated. In that sense it is a very generic term indeed. I am not a lawyer, but my feeling is that it is unnecessary and counterproductive at this point in time for one group of "methodologists" to try to restrict the word 'biodynamic' to a particular set of methods. In the 1930's this might have been a good idea, but now it seems to me that this horse is long since out of the barn and that slamming the door shut now will not bring him back again. On the other hand, I do think that the term 'biodynamic' needs to be qualified and differentiated with additional words so that in a given instance there is no confusion about what particular methods are being or have been used. With this information the consumer can decide which brand of biodynamics suits him best. Of course he can choose to rely on the advice or recommendations of other entities, but I don't see why a third-party certifier, for example, is any less likely to be biased or engage in fraud than any individual producer or processor. As far as I am concerned, Hugh is welcome to claim that his vegetables are tastier than anyone else's, or that his biodynamic methods are more advanced than other people's; whether these claims are "bogus" or not is for his customers and his colleagues to decide. If you feel his claims are bogus, then please choose to inform and educate us and allow us to make our own choices rather than forcibly interfere with his ability to sell his products or our ability to buy them. On the other hand (I guess that's my third hand), if Hugh misrepresents something about the *past*, if for instance he says he physically sprayed his vegetables with #501 when he actually treated them radionically, then this is fraud and I am all in favor him being prosecuted. Please let us respect the freedom of the "masses" and use education--and possibly free samples--to convince them of the superiority of this or that brand of biodynamics rather than make biodynamics in general best known for its trademark wars. Sincerely yours, Malcolm Gardner From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:52:39 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25228 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:52:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09809; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:46:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (web1.vphos.net [207.102.129.200]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27613 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:03:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.95]) by web1.vphos.net ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:08:39 -0800 Message-ID: <00ad01bf5d30$72637fc0$65cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: Subject: Claymont and Demeter Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 12:07:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3073 Allan: You wrote: <> after making your position quite clear on seeking Demeter certification: you wish to be respectful (!?) and you want to gain a premium price. I ask because Demeter and BDA seem to me cut from the same cloth, and few have suffered as much as you have from BDA thickheadedness. IMO there is no reason for anyone to seek "official" certification unless the intention is to abandon face-to-face marketing [CSA or local farmers market] and enter the wider anonymous marketplace where the only (dubious) assurance of biodynamic quality is the Demeter label. In the face to face situation--of which Lovel is a master--you explain your growing methods, you're there next week and the next if someone has a problem with your product, you back up your claims [of freshness, taste, etc.] with your person...you're not anonymous, you're a real guy, warts and all. Why do you suppose, Allan, that Demeter has been able, in all these years, to certify only 50 or so farms in the U.S.? Because so few farmers find certification useful. When you propose to <> from a farm where cash is in such short supply that calling the Roto-Rooter guy is a luxury you can only dream of, I am baffled. Demeter would build a bureaucracy on the backs of farmers like ourselves if we could all be drawn in. Many of us are <> but few of us want to pay and pay, season after season, for the privilege of putting that cert label on our product Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 8:37 AM Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA > >Allan: > > > >You wrote: < >very near future.>> > > > >I'd be interested to hear about your thinking on this. > > > >W > > It's as simple as this, Woody: no markets/no farms, even from Nature > Boys like myself. I need to assure a market for what we grow here and > I can benefit, just as Fred does, from the Demeter differential. As > far as I can tell, I'm in full conformity with the Demeter guidelines > (NOT THAT I'VE ACTUALLY SEEN THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ON THE WEB AND > I STILL OWE ANN $10 or whatever.) As an educational initiative and > the site of the mid-atlantic biodynamic farming and gardening > conference, I think it is only respectful to follow many of my > friends - - such as Jeff Poppen - - with the Claymont Farm and > support Demeter by example and through cash. In addition, I am > understaffed here and do not have a lot of time to use in marketing > etc. , so neighbor Victor's (Shanti Yoga) offer to sell all of our > stuff (if Demeter certified) is important to me. > > Independent certifier Jerry Collette lives here at Claymont, but I'm > not interested in certifying under him. > > Why do you ask? > > -Allan > -- > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 15:53:02 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25244 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:53:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09901; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:47:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d07.mx.aol.com (imo-d07.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.39]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06526 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:26:48 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.20.c501fa (3702) for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:31:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20.c501fa.25ae3e89@aol.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:31:05 EST Subject: Re: BDNOW & BDA To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3074 In a message dated 1/10/00 10:07:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, igg@igg.com writes: << If this paper is the one that Reganold partnered on with two other researchers, the primary one being Lynn ???, I've got that paper here somewhere. It's on the measurable differences between BD compost and conventional compost, in process and in product. As I find the time, I'll post more information. As far as I know this report is not published on the web or elsewhere. If I recall correctly, I was asked to not reprint or quote publicly from it until it has been published. Is this the one, Glen/Dan? -Allan >> It's the only one I know about. Dan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 16:58:15 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26283 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:58:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22585; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:52:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d08.mx.aol.com (imo-d08.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20264 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:40:41 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.2.362c33 (4238) for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:43:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <2.362c33.25ae4f8f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:43:43 EST Subject: BD Familiarity by Farmers To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3075 I gave a presentation to ~ 70 grape growers in VA, all conventional farmers. Before I started I asked two questions: 1) Show of hands of those familiar with the term organic farming - 50 hands 2) Show of hands of those familiar with the term biodynamic farming - 2 hands After the presentation all are familiar with BD but it shows, dramatically I believe, that BD is an relative unknown and has not been well marketed. Is this the job of the BDA? If organic is almost mainstream, biodynamic must be considered fringe. Should we just call ourselves advanced organic growers? Hugh, do your customers in GA know what BD is or do you sell your produce as organic? Dan L From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 17:21:58 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA26847 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:21:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA27035; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:16:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA26940 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.50.alltel.net [166.102.66.50]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id QAA15881 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:20:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:18:04 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Off: sea salt, was..... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3076 Guillermo, You're onto something here, buddy. That sure is good salt, and crushed, bagged in kilos like the Lima brand from France it would surely sell. I'll have to ask my local health food purveyor about markets. He's tied into them all. But your salt there in Colima is superior to all except the Emperor Sea Salt I get from China. Very excellent. I hope you get this working. I get good salt as a rule. As a cook for big crowds I am very tuned in to good salt. I get unrefined sea salt from France, Belgium, Korea and China as well as the US. You can bet I'll be getting your salt when it is on the market. Best, Hugh Guillermo writes: >>the fact you were so tuned in to good salt that you brought me a kilo of >>the best from Colima. I'm just now using the last of it and wonder where I >>can get more because it was VERY excellent. >> > >Hi Hugh: > >For a few months now I have being talking with a "salineros" cooperative >about the posibility of exporting salt to specialized (natural foods) >oriented markets/distributors in developed countries. This cooperative >produces 10,000 tons per year of sun dried, unrefined sea salt from the >lagoon "springs". > >I do not want to export bulk, but would prefer to export the salt in >"final consumer" presentations, probably 1-5 pound packages. (And 10-20 >kg sacks for commercial use.) Probably packaged in an artesal container >to give it some value added, increase the returns for the salineros and >the wholesalers and to give it some regional identity. > >I have being seeing the process closely, it needs really minor changes to >be as good and natural as the process used in the Celtic salt. > >I will get samples through the production season (starting now) and will >get them analize for the same constituents that are reported in the Celtic >salt. > >The problem to market it in the US and other international is about >accessing established distributors, any ideas or suggestions ? > >If you want some for your personal use, I can send it to you, but I am >afraid that sending a parcel with 5-10 kg of salt would be very expensive >using public mail or other carrier services, please advice. > >I will be going down there at the end of the month to talk to this people >and to get some salt for my own use without the Flour and Iodine that by >law they are required to add. > >Regards > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 17:22:08 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA26863 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:22:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA27089; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:16:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA26955 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:15:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.50.alltel.net [166.102.66.50]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id QAA15989 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:20:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000111.170016.18446.5.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:28:09 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: weeds Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3077 >Dear Hugh, Guillermo, everyone-- > > Is there a good resource book that summarizes which weeds like acid >versus those that like alkaline soil, so that one could do some >on-the-spot soil diagnosis? > >Thanks, >Deborah > >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Dear Deborah, I don't know. I've quit worrying about weeds for many years now. They occur in my fields but it looks to me now like signals rather than war. I've got a pretty limited system here and don't have things like quack grass or Johnson, etc. I don't know what weeds you are worried about, but Pfeiffer's book on WEEDS AND WHAT THEY TELL and the Acres book on weeds, which has unfortunately migrated from my library, are classics. There's things you can do about weeds if you have them, but your appraoach of learning what weeds tell is best. Go, gal, go! It's a huge study. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 17:31:46 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27097 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:31:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA29071; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:25:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop05.iname.net (pop05.iname.net [165.251.8.70]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28296 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:22:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from gardener.com (70.charlotte-23-24rs.nc.dial-access.att.net [12.77.33.70]) by pop05.iname.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00687 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:27:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <387CFFCA.E8E52248@gardener.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:27:22 -0500 From: David Dodge X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: OFF: Organic vs. conventional References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3078 Below is a link from the discussion group Agnet. It is a dialogue between Patrick Holden The Soil Association and Julian Morris Office of Economic Affairs. The article appears in the Guardian Saturday Review. http://www.newsunlimited.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,119843,00.html -- Sincerely, David Dodge ddhort@usa.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 17:46:15 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27388 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:46:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01812; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01364 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:36:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.130] (du-148-233-78-130.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO800EDLUX8R4@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:39:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:41:18 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: sorrel/Essiac In-reply-to: <20000111195023.6857.qmail@ww190.netaddress.usa.net> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3079 >Hi Guillermo, > >Just a note to say that Essiac is from a North American Indian recipe >(specifically Ontario, Canada) rather than the continent of India. It would >be interesting if these same plants were used for similar purposes in >ayurvedic medecine. > >Nancy Geffken Thanks for the clarification, I was thinking Indian from India, therefore my reference to Ayur-ved. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 18:35:13 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28150 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:35:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA06602; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:28:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06516 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:26:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([210.55.81.242]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000112233916.JPGU6460852.mta1-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:39:16 +1300 Message-ID: <387D0CF1.2B16@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:32:45 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future References: <387B72FE.6840@xtra.co.nz> <387B7B68.C47CBCB8@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3080 Robert Farr wrote: > > Okay, Glen. What you say sounds reasonable. > > However - a set of standards must be developed which everyone can agree > on. If not, again, we have nothing to measure ourselves against. > > What do you propose? > > R. I have no trouble with a Demeter trademark owned by the BDAs, thats fine. But to have the BDAs put forward as the controllers and even authorities of 'Biodynamics' is going too far. They are an organisation of people, lead by people who like politics, and who then have a habit of judging what is biodynamic or not. Do you see the problem here? They are not necessarily philosophers, researchers or spiritual investigators. They are indeed often farmers, politicians, organisational beaurocrats and business people who by nature and experience are often personally disempowered. Which is why innovation and development beyond their control threatens them so. In Demeter and Biodynamics we have two totally different spheres of activity. My point is they need to be kept separate. Biodynamics is a growing living developing field of investigation. By no stretch of the imagination is it complete in understanding or practice. See the BDNOW archives for evidence of this. Demeter is a fixed set of guidelines based on the lowest common denominator as to what can be considered Biodynamic practice, which ultimately is little more than what RS suggested in 1924, and unlikely to develop much beyond that. In practice it is even less than this. And this is OK in itself. This is the classic Saturn versus Uranus debate/conversation/conflict. They are both OK, just allow them to be different. Demeter is Saturnian by nature, decree and desire. Biodynamic Agriculture is Uranian by nature and shown to be so by its history. It can be a living dynamic material/spiritual journey of ongoing discovery, if we allow it to be, which feeds the Saturnian Demeter, if it allows itself to be fed by the future. It is our choice and regardless of the beaurocrats attempts to contol Biodynamics it has escaped and running free, for ever more. Even if under another name in the future RSs BD impulse is now available to all who wish to explore it. cheers Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 18:53:30 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28450 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:53:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08285; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA07887 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:43:22 -0500 (EST) From: VascCamb@aol.com Received: from VascCamb@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.c8.108b9d (4465) for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:48:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:48:05 EST Subject: Re: weeds To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 44 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3081 Dear Guillermo-- I've got an excellent recipe for leek and sorrel soup from Mad Mares Farm in Bethany, CT; if you'd like, I can send it over the wire. By the way, having been a bystander in my short time on the list, I now thank you all heartily for your wisdom, experience, good humor, etc. Yours, Matt Wheeler From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 19:31:49 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA29158 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 19:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA13838; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 19:25:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (web1.vphos.net [207.102.129.200]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08337 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:48:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.112]) by web1.vphos.net ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:53:22 -0800 Message-ID: <014001bf5d58$399f2720$65cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <20000111.170016.18446.5.LaQuerencia@juno.com> Subject: Re: weeds Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:45:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3082 Dear Deborah: "Weeds and What they Tell" E E Pfeiffer...probably available from JPI and BDA. Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: Deborah M Byron To: Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 4:00 PM Subject: Re: weeds > Dear Hugh, Guillermo, everyone-- > > Is there a good resource book that summarizes which weeds like acid > versus those that like alkaline soil, so that one could do some > on-the-spot soil diagnosis? > > Thanks, > Deborah > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 21:47:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00810 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29596; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:40:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA29260 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:36:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.207] (du-148-233-78-207.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO900JSJ61UYS@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:39:34 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:40:27 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future? In-reply-to: <4.3.0.25.20000111091147.00a84b90@swva.net> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id VAA29266 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3083 >As far as I am >concerned, Hugh is welcome to claim that his vegetables are tastier than >anyone else's, or that his biodynamic methods are more advanced than other >people's; whether these claims are "bogus" or not is for his customers and >his colleagues to decide. If you feel his claims are bogus, then please >choose to inform and educate us and allow us to make our own choices rather >than forcibly interfere with his ability to sell his products or our >ability to buy them. On the other hand (I guess that's my third hand), if >Hugh misrepresents something about the *past*, if for instance he says he >physically sprayed his vegetables with #501 when he actually treated them >radionically, then this is fraud and I am all in favor him being prosecuted. > Please let us respect the freedom of the "masses" and use >education--and possibly free samples--to convince them of the superiority >of this or that brand of biodynamics rather than make biodynamics in >general best known for its trademark wars. > >Sincerely yours, > >Malcolm >Gardner Dear Mr. Gardner: Many thanks for your comments. I would like to use this opportunity to take this discussion to a more general and constructive perspective of things, beyond the particularities of the BDA, ABA, Demeter, Hugh Lovel, myself, etc. But please excuse me; because of my work load I can not reply in extent to your post until next weekend. Today I want to assure you and everybody else that I do not have or have ever had the intention or the capacity to "forcibly interfere" with the ability of Hugh Lovel to do or say anything he pleases. Nor do I have stated or implied that his claims are "bogus". Furthermore, I do not have the capacity nor do I want the authority to "let" you or anybody else respect or not "the freedom of the masses". My posts correspond to my interests which are in the construction of opportunities through research, information and education. I work for a non-for-profit NGO that devotes most of its effort to environmental promotion and education. I am not interested in creating conflict or personal confrontations, I am interested in discussing the issues, discussing the "movement" alternative and conventional developing policies and in creating conceptual and operational frameworks where, under the present day conditions, we can all interact and develop. In my country, BD is practically unexistent and therefore my interest and the need for conceptual infrastructure and institutional perspectives, before the need to developing markets. Respectfully. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 22:15:35 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01080 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:15:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01865; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:09:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01765 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:08:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.207] (du-148-233-78-207.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO9005I97FWZH@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:09:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:11:42 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Not your average brain surgeons! In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <004d01bf5c53$87550440$b3102cc3@m00q6c00> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3084 >Thank God for the Spaniard on this list! Otherwise, I'd think it was >finally substantiated that substandard genes always migrated to the >West.... -Allan > And who is this person ?, I am longing for the opportunity to exchange BD whatever in my own precious language. Desesperadamente. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 22:15:45 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01088 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:15:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01830; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:09:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01763 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:08:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.207] (du-148-233-78-207.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO9005I97FWZH@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:09:35 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:05:47 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: weeds In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id WAA01764 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3085 >Dear Guillermo-- > I've got an excellent recipe for leek and sorrel soup from Mad Mares Farm >in Bethany, CT; if you'd like, I can send it over the wire. > By the way, having been a bystander in my short time on the list, I now >thank you all heartily for your wisdom, experience, good humor, etc. > > Yours, > > Matt Wheeler Many Thanks Matt, please do send your recipe to my private email address, I would send you the one I use, originally from Gravetye Manor in Sussex, in return. Many thanks also for the very kind and generous virtual appreciation of myself, but let me publicly confess that I'm lives away from being either wise or experienced and that people who live and work with me, will laugh for weeks in a row about the notion of me having a good humor, I have a good and rather obscure sense of humor though. Gratefully Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 22:29:49 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01229 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:29:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA02980; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:23:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02817 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:21:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (CVA09-30.swva.net [206.99.244.202]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA30086 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:05:28 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.0.25.20000112220742.00a9ac40@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.25 (Beta) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:27:50 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: gardner Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.25.20000111091147.00a84b90@swva.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3086 Dear Guillermo, I want to apologize for stressing the word "you" too much in my post. I did not mean to make it personal; I too was trying to take the discussion to a more general level. But I slipped. I should have said, for example, "If anyone feels his [Hugh's] claims are bogus, then I would ask him or her please to choose to inform and educate us ..." Please know that I respect and appreciate your posts and that I very much regret any distress that I have inadvertantly caused you with my post. Sincerely yours, Malcolm Gardner At 08:40 PM 1/12/00 -0600, you wrote: > >As far as I am > >concerned, Hugh is welcome to claim that his vegetables are tastier than > >anyone else's, or that his biodynamic methods are more advanced than other > >people's; whether these claims are "bogus" or not is for his customers and > >his colleagues to decide. If you feel his claims are bogus, then please > >choose to inform and educate us and allow us to make our own choices rather > >than forcibly interfere with his ability to sell his products or our > >ability to buy them. On the other hand (I guess that's my third hand), if > >Hugh misrepresents something about the *past*, if for instance he says he > >physically sprayed his vegetables with #501 when he actually treated them > >radionically, then this is fraud and I am all in favor him being prosecuted. > > Please let us respect the freedom of the "masses" and use > >education--and possibly free samples--to convince them of the superiority > >of this or that brand of biodynamics rather than make biodynamics in > >general best known for its trademark wars. > > > >Sincerely yours, > > > >Malcolm > >Gardner > >Dear Mr. Gardner: > >Many thanks for your comments. I would like to use this opportunity to >take this discussion to a more general and constructive perspective of >things, beyond the particularities of the BDA, ABA, Demeter, Hugh Lovel, >myself, etc. But please excuse me; because of my work load I can not >reply in extent to your post until next weekend. > >Today I want to assure you and everybody else that I do not have or have >ever had the intention or the capacity to "forcibly interfere" with the >ability of Hugh Lovel to do or say anything he pleases. Nor do I have >stated or implied that his claims are "bogus". Furthermore, I do not have >the capacity nor do I want the authority to "let" you or anybody >else respect or not "the freedom of the masses". > >My posts correspond to my interests which are in the construction of >opportunities through research, information and education. I work for a >non-for-profit NGO that devotes most of its effort to environmental >promotion and education. > >I am not interested in creating conflict or personal confrontations, I am >interested in discussing the issues, discussing the "movement" alternative >and conventional developing policies and in creating conceptual and >operational frameworks where, under the present day conditions, we can all >interact and develop. > >In my country, BD is practically unexistent and therefore my interest and >the need for conceptual infrastructure and institutional perspectives, >before the need to developing markets. > >Respectfully. > > > > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 22:45:10 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01341 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:45:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA04054; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:38:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03842 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:35:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.207] (du-148-233-78-207.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO9006BE8QL9M@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:37:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:38:03 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future? In-reply-to: <4.3.0.25.20000112220742.00a9ac40@swva.net> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <4.3.0.25.20000111091147.00a84b90@swva.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3087 >Dear Guillermo, > > I want to apologize for stressing the word "you" too much in my >post. I did not mean to make it personal; I too was trying to take the >discussion to a more general level. But I slipped. I should have said, >for example, "If anyone feels his [Hugh's] claims are bogus, then I would >ask him or her please to choose to inform and educate us ..." > Please know that I respect and appreciate your posts and that I >very much regret any distress that I have inadvertantly caused you with my >post. > >Sincerely yours, >Malcolm Gardner > > Dear Mr. Gardner: Thank you for the clarification. I will be looking forward to this more general discusion of these issues. Warm greetings. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 22:58:43 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01456 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:58:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA05170; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:52:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA04854 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.22] (pm3shep4-163-188.intrepid.net [209.190.163.188]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA07596 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:52:53 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <004d01bf5c53$87550440$b3102cc3@m00q6c00> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:56:56 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Not your average brain surgeons! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3088 At 9:11 PM -0600 1/12/00, Guillermo Romero, who was on a rather statesman-like roll initiated this inquiry: : > >Thank God for the Spaniard on this list! Otherwise, I'd think it was >>finally substantiated that substandard genes always migrated to the >>West.... -Allan >> > >And who is this person ?, I am longing for the opportunity to >exchange BD whatever in my own precious language. Here is the Spaniard, as he appeared in Mark's original post: >>3rd RUNNER-UP: Goes to poacher Marino Malerba of Spain, who shot a stag >>standing above him on an overhanging rock. He was killed instantly when the >>dead animal fell on him. Fortunately, you do very well speaking in our language also! >In my country, BD is practically unexistent and therefore my >interest and the need for conceptual infrastructure and >institutional perspectives, before the need to developing markets. (It's hard to supress the tired old Canadian bureaucrat joke!!) Later -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 23:27:20 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01879 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:27:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09014; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:21:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08656 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:18:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.22] (pm3shep3-163-116.intrepid.net [209.190.163.116]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA11786 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:16:03 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00ad01bf5d30$72637fc0$65cb6cce@netacc.net> References: <00ad01bf5d30$72637fc0$65cb6cce@netacc.net> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:19:02 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Claymont-brand Biodynamics was Re: Claymont and Demeter Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3089 >Allan: > >You wrote: <> after making your position quite clear on >seeking Demeter certification: you wish to be respectful (!?) and you want >to gain a premium price. > >I ask because Demeter and BDA seem to me cut from the same cloth, and few >have suffered as much as you have from BDA thickheadedness. IMO there is no >reason for anyone to seek "official" certification unless the intention is >to abandon face-to-face marketing [CSA or local farmers market] and enter >the wider anonymous marketplace where the only (dubious) assurance of >biodynamic quality is the Demeter label. In the face to face situation--of >which Lovel is a master--you explain your growing methods, you're there next >week and the next if someone has a problem with your product, you back up >your claims [of freshness, taste, etc.] with your person...you're not >anonymous, you're a real guy, warts and all. Woody - I don't really have the option here. I have to wear too many hats, I can't really spend a lot of time in markets. Organic food has yet to catch on here in the eastern panhandle of west virginia, so biodynamic is of even less interest. Selling CSA through Victor makes good economic sense for us. I feel that people who buy through Victor, who started as a Demeter food distributor, should be getting Demeter certified food, with a few exceptions. Woody, I don't fear crooked biodynamic farmers, I fear stupid ones, or misguided ones. I've just seen too much stupid shit done to vegetables and to value-added food for me to think that farms don't benefit from being looked over now and again by a knowledgeable third party. Examples? What about 'biodynamic fruit jams' that are about 30percent store bought white sugar? What about the biodynamic seed that was offered here a year or so back that was biodynamic because BD500 was mixed into the drip (or some such simplification of the process like that), what about the local 'biodynamic farmer' who has not animals, makes no compost, and pretty much relies on foliar? To be honest with you, I see so many consumers that are so incapable of making real judgements about food quality that, while it is most assuredly none of my business, they are continually taken in by the careless antics like the ones I mention above. Gosh, I'm one of those who believe that biodynamic food makes better people. I really want people who buy biodynamic food to be getting REAL biodynamic food! Certification is not the whole answer, we both know that, but it's a start. >Why do you suppose, Allan, that Demeter has been able, in all these years, >to certify only 50 or so farms in the U.S.? Because so few farmers find >certification useful. From what I hear, this sort of points to what I was saying above: many farmers/gardeners want to say they are biodynamic but they do not want the reponsibility and work of taking care of animals. They may be willing to apply preps, etc, but they are not really capable of creating a true 'farm organism.' > >When you propose to <> from a >farm where cash is in such short supply that calling the Roto-Rooter guy is >a luxury you can only dream of, I am baffled. Not the answer you are asking for, but the true one: I have a beneficiary who will pay for Demeter certification for the land. Even so, the farm budget is not part of the housing budget, so the analogy is not accurate. > Demeter would build a >bureaucracy on the backs of farmers like ourselves if we could all be drawn >in. Many of us are <> >but few of us want to pay and pay, season after season, for the privilege of >putting that cert label on our product This is fine, for growers like yourself who 'get it' and grow in a proper biodynamic way instictively and wouldn't have it any other way. And for growers who have a food-quality-conscious clientle or have the staff that allows 'someone' to spend a lot of time at markets. People in these situations do not really need certification, nor do their customers For me, the certification saves me a lot of time and work on the marketing end. The Demeter seal remains a mark of quality in much of the world and people do look for it. Believe me, if Jeff Poppen, the barefoot farmer, can work with Demeter, they can't be as oppressive as you seem to think that they are. Care to share your horror stories? -Allan >----- Original Message ----- >From: Allan Balliett >To: >Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 8:37 AM >Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future ? was BD Now! and the BDA > > >> >Allan: >> > >> >You wrote: <> >very near future.>> >> > >> >I'd be interested to hear about your thinking on this. >> > >> >W >> >> It's as simple as this, Woody: no markets/no farms, even from Nature >> Boys like myself. I need to assure a market for what we grow here and >> I can benefit, just as Fred does, from the Demeter differential. As >> far as I can tell, I'm in full conformity with the Demeter guidelines >> (NOT THAT I'VE ACTUALLY SEEN THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ON THE WEB AND >> I STILL OWE ANN $10 or whatever.) As an educational initiative and >> the site of the mid-atlantic biodynamic farming and gardening >> conference, I think it is only respectful to follow many of my >> friends - - such as Jeff Poppen - - with the Claymont Farm and >> support Demeter by example and through cash. In addition, I am >> understaffed here and do not have a lot of time to use in marketing >> etc. , so neighbor Victor's (Shanti Yoga) offer to sell all of our >> stuff (if Demeter certified) is important to me. >> >> Independent certifier Jerry Collette lives here at Claymont, but I'm >> not interested in certifying under him. >> >> Why do you ask? >> >> -Allan >> -- >> -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 23:41:33 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA02096 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:41:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10378; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:35:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09670 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:30:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.207] (du-148-233-78-207.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO900EXUBBENV@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:33:18 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:35:22 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Not your average brain surgeons! In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <004d01bf5c53$87550440$b3102cc3@m00q6c00> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3090 >At 9:11 PM -0600 1/12/00, Guillermo Romero, who was on a rather >statesman-like roll initiated this inquiry: >: >> >Thank God for the Spaniard on this list! Otherwise, I'd think it was >>>finally substantiated that substandard genes always migrated to the >>>West.... -Allan >>> >> >>And who is this person ?, I am longing for the opportunity to >>exchange BD whatever in my own precious language. > >Here is the Spaniard, as he appeared in Mark's original post: > >>>3rd RUNNER-UP: Goes to poacher Marino Malerba of Spain, who shot a stag >>>standing above him on an overhanging rock. He was killed instantly when the >>>dead animal fell on him. > >Fortunately, you do very well speaking in our language also! > >>In my country, BD is practically unexistent and therefore my >>interest and the need for conceptual infrastructure and >>institutional perspectives, before the need to developing markets. > >(It's hard to supress the tired old Canadian bureaucrat joke!!) > >Later -Allan > Thanks Allan, but it is only Spanish in disguise. As to the old Canadian Bureaucrat appelative, I really need to get even and will be working on a good one to call our good friend Hugh. I will welcome ideas ? Andy ?, Robert ?. As far as I can remember Hugh has American Indian blood ummh, so something on the lines of "Great Ego, Loud Southern Laughing Passing Wind" might be appropriate. What do you think ?. If needed, I will explain latter and in private. Cheers Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 12 23:46:27 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA02176 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:46:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10699; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:40:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA10617 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:39:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (cust94.nrvmax5.tor1.netrover.com [205.209.27.94]) by river.netrover.com (8.9.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA02591 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:44:23 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-From: villager@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: Re: sea salt, was..... Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:57:44 -0500 Message-ID: <01bf5d7a$59939260$LocalHost@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3091 Guillermo: I too would like to explore what market possibilities are in my area. What kind of volume would be a minimal starter for you?....regards, manfred palmer, Toronto, Canada. -----Original Message----- From: Guillermo Romero To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 3:51 PM Subject: Off: sea salt, was..... > >>the fact you were so tuned in to good salt that you brought me a kilo of >>the best from Colima. I'm just now using the last of it and wonder where I >>can get more because it was VERY excellent. >> > >Hi Hugh: > >For a few months now I have being talking with a "salineros" cooperative about the posibility of exporting salt to specialized (natural foods) oriented markets/distributors in developed countries. This cooperative produces 10,000 tons per year of sun dried, unrefined sea salt from the lagoon "springs". > >I do not want to export bulk, but would prefer to export the salt in "final consumer" presentations, probably 1-5 pound packages. (And 10-20 kg sacks for commercial use.) Probably packaged in an artesal container to give it some value added, increase the returns for the salineros and the wholesalers and to give it some regional identity. > >I have being seeing the process closely, it needs really minor changes to be as good and natural as the process used in the Celtic salt. > >I will get samples through the production season (starting now) and will get them analize for the same constituents that are reported in the Celtic salt. > >The problem to market it in the US and other international is about accessing established distributors, any ideas or suggestions ? > >If you want some for your personal use, I can send it to you, but I am afraid that sending a parcel with 5-10 kg of salt would be very expensive using public mail or other carrier services, please advice. > >I will be going down there at the end of the month to talk to this people and to get some salt for my own use without the Flour and Iodine that by law they are required to add. > >Regards > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 00:11:00 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA02498 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:10:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA12139; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:04:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA10710 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:40:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.207] (du-148-233-78-207.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO900IXKBPMXB@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:41:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:43:58 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Claymont-brand Biodynamics was Re: Claymont and Demeter In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <00ad01bf5d30$72637fc0$65cb6cce@netacc.net> <00ad01bf5d30$72637fc0$65cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3092 > >For me, the certification saves me a lot of time and work on the >marketing end. The Demeter seal remains a mark of quality in much of >the world and people do look for it. Believe me, if Jeff Poppen, the >barefoot farmer, can work with Demeter, they can't be as oppressive >as you seem to think that they are. Care to share your horror stories? BTW Allan, Do you know what happen to Jeff's intention to join the list ?, I remember that he said he wanted to participate and that he already had the computer and the internet account to support it. His participation would be a great addition to this list, I am enjoying so much his "Barefoot Farmer" booklets, plenty of wisdom, experience and humor. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 00:11:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA02506 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:11:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA12192; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:04:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11688 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:59:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.207] (du-148-233-78-207.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FO9007CTCOJ9Z@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:02:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:02:48 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: sea salt, was..... In-reply-to: <01bf5d7a$59939260$LocalHost@default> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3093 >Guillermo: >I too would like to explore what market possibilities are in my area. What >kind of volume would be a minimal starter for you?....regards, manfred >palmer, Toronto, Canada. Hi Manfred: Great, it might work, so far I have Gwenda from Aus, Hugh and you. I do not have any idea, the only thing I am seeing now is white mounts. Let me check with our version of the "exim bank" and with maritime freight consolidators. I will get back to you, but meanwhile please inquire about distribution. Many thanks. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 03:11:18 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03698 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:11:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA23546; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:05:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA14574 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:40:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d149.infoserve.net [199.175.157.149]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id VAA27689 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:50:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002601bf5d8a$54890880$959dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: sea salt, was..... Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:51:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3094 Also, G., I am interested in importing your salt in our area in Vancouver, Canada. Michael -----Original Message----- From: manfred palmer To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 8:49 PM Subject: Re: sea salt, was..... >Guillermo: >I too would like to explore what market possibilities are in my area. What >kind of volume would be a minimal starter for you?....regards, manfred >palmer, Toronto, Canada. >-----Original Message----- >From: Guillermo Romero >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 3:51 PM >Subject: Off: sea salt, was..... > > >> >>>the fact you were so tuned in to good salt that you brought me a kilo of >>>the best from Colima. I'm just now using the last of it and wonder where I >>>can get more because it was VERY excellent. >>> >> >>Hi Hugh: >> >>For a few months now I have being talking with a "salineros" cooperative >about the posibility of exporting salt to specialized (natural foods) >oriented markets/distributors in developed countries. This cooperative >produces 10,000 tons per year of sun dried, unrefined sea salt from the >lagoon "springs". >> >>I do not want to export bulk, but would prefer to export the salt in "final >consumer" presentations, probably 1-5 pound packages. (And 10-20 kg sacks >for commercial use.) Probably packaged in an artesal container to give it >some value added, increase the returns for the salineros and the wholesalers >and to give it some regional identity. >> >>I have being seeing the process closely, it needs really minor changes to >be as good and natural as the process used in the Celtic salt. >> >>I will get samples through the production season (starting now) and will >get them analize for the same constituents that are reported in the Celtic >salt. >> >>The problem to market it in the US and other international is about >accessing established distributors, any ideas or suggestions ? >> >>If you want some for your personal use, I can send it to you, but I am >afraid that sending a parcel with 5-10 kg of salt would be very expensive >using public mail or other carrier services, please advice. >> >>I will be going down there at the end of the month to talk to this people >and to get some salt for my own use without the Flour and Iodine that by law >they are required to add. >> >>Regards >> >>Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >>Comala, Colima, MEXICO >> >> > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 08:37:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06013 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:37:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03198; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:31:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA02628 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:28:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-150.s150.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.150] helo=erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 128kMu-0005ut-00; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:32:52 -0500 Message-ID: <387DD457.B22B02D8@erols.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:34:15 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: BD Familiarity by Farmers References: <2.362c33.25ae4f8f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3095 Good questions, Dan. I'm a little leery about pushing BD too much in my biz (hot sauce), because I don't want to appear "on the fringe." I'm trying to soft pedal it to get people interested, then explain it more fully when they are. Yes - I'm hoping the BDA can take on the job of mass public education. It's certainly what we need. BTW, I just visited the BDA web site yesterday, and I think their Introduction to BD does a pretty good job of de-cloaking "what is BD", and uses calm words to soothe the fringe thing. R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 08:37:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06014 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:37:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03295; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:31:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA02858 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:29:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-150.s150.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.150] helo=erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 128kOE-0006Et-00; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:34:15 -0500 Message-ID: <387DD4AA.A261CD28@erols.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:35:38 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Off: sea salt, was..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3096 Hugh: I'd love to add some of this superior salt to my hot sauces and other chile products. Can you please provide some source info? And - Guillermo - here's your new career, man! Go into the exporting business; start with this excellent salt. Give it a go! Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 08:46:17 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06142 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:46:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04795; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:40:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04496 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:38:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-150.s150.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.150] helo=erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 128kWp-00001N-00; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:43:07 -0500 Message-ID: <387DD6BE.69277FB0@erols.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:44:30 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future References: <387B72FE.6840@xtra.co.nz> <387B7B68.C47CBCB8@erols.com> <387D0CF1.2B16@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3097 Hey, Glen - damn good reply! I understand now, and am swayed. R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 09:00:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06355 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06992; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:54:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06519 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:51:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-150.s150.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.150] helo=erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 128kjY-0004Uu-00; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:56:17 -0500 Message-ID: <387DD9D4.638DB42@erols.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:57:40 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Claymont-brand Biodynamics was Re: Claymont and Demeter References: <00ad01bf5d30$72637fc0$65cb6cce@netacc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3098 An exellent reply from Allan, too. A good debate on these issues. Sounds like the solution is to work with the BDA and Demeter to make Demeter more progressive, but still seek third-party certification of "BioDynamic." It certainly would save us from the charlatans - R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 09:05:59 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06449 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:05:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07649; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:59:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07146 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:56:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-150.s150.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.150] helo=erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 128knx-0005Wr-00; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:00:49 -0500 Message-ID: <387DDAE4.EDCDB1A5@erols.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:02:12 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Not your average brain surgeons! References: <004d01bf5c53$87550440$b3102cc3@m00q6c00> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3099 A nickname for Hugh? Well, in keeping with the salt posts, how about, "Salty Dog"! R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 09:20:39 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06634 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:20:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09826; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:14:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.68]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09086 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:09:59 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.df.277e28 (4562) for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:14:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:14:44 EST Subject: Re: BD Familiarity by Farmers To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3100 In a message dated 1/13/00 8:38:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, rbfarr@erols.com writes: << I'm a little leery about pushing BD too much in my biz (hot sauce), because I don't want to appear "on the fringe." Call it organic as a start. I'm trying to soft pedal it to get people interested, then explain it more fully when they are. Yes - I'm hoping the BDA can take on the job of mass public education. It's certainly what we need. >From my experience yesterday with a group of farmers and only 1% had heard of BD , I think that is wishful thinking but hope I am wrong. BTW, I just visited the BDA web site yesterday, and I think their Introduction to BD does a pretty good job of de-cloaking "what is BD", and uses calm words to soothe the fringe thing. >> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 09:29:19 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06836 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:29:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11068; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:23:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10400 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:19:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.116] (pm3shep2-163-106.intrepid.net [209.190.163.106]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA20040 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:24:20 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <004d01bf5c53$87550440$b3102cc3@m00q6c00> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:53:45 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: OFF Fwd: Not your average brain surgeons! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3101 >As far as I can remember Hugh has American Indian blood ummh, so >something on the lines of "Great Ego, Loud Southern Laughing Passing >Wind" might be appropriate. What do you think ?. Brings up one of those dreaded email acronyms: LOL :-) -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 10:32:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07957 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:32:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21088; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:26:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20924 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:25:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d149.infoserve.net [199.175.157.149]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA29355 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 07:34:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002e01bf5ddc$00ebb9a0$959dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: OFF / Y2K Emergency measures Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 07:36:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3102 Date: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 8:23 PM Subject: Y2K Emergency measures >While we believe we will be fully Y2K compliant by January 1, >> 2000, we obviously need to make some preparations in case >> unexpected challenges impair our ability to meet the needs of our >>community. >> >> Enclosed with this memo is a "Y2K Backup System" device >> designed to meet short time emergency needs in case of a computer >>operations >>failure, or operational delay. This device is the Primary Emergency >>Network >>Computer Interface Liaison device; acronym: P.E.N.C.I.L. >> >>This device has been field tested extensively, including >>certification testing, as well as volume and stress testing. >> Properly maintained, the device meets all the requirements >for >>coding and data input.Prior to use, the P.E.N.C.I.L. will require >>preparation >>and testing. Tools and supplies required will be: A knife or sharpening >>device; >>and a supply of computer paper (with or without holes). Gripping the >>device >>firmly in your hand,proceed to scrape or grind the wooden end until it >>has a >>cone-like appearance. The dark core area must be exposed to properly >>function. >>Place a single sheet of computer paper on a smooth, hard surface. Take >>the >>backup >>device, place the sharpened point against the paper, and pull it across >>the >>paper. If properly done, this will input a single line. >> >> CAUTION: Excessive force may damage components of the device >>or >>damage the data reception device. If either the P.E.N.C.I.L.or >>the >>paper are damaged, go back to the preparation instructions above. >> Proper use of the device will require data simulation input by the >> >>operator. >>Placing the device against the computer page >> forming symbols as closely resembling the computer lettering >> system you normally use. At the completion of each of the >> simulated letters, lift the device off the page, move it slightly >>to the >>right, replace it against the page, and form the next symbol.This may >>appear >>tedious, and somewhat redundant, but, with practice, you should be able >>to >>increase >>your speed >>and accuracy. >> The P.E.N.C.I.L. is equipped with a manual deletion device. The >>device >>is located on the reverse end of the P.E.N.C.I.L. Error deletions >>operate >>similarly to the "backspace" key on your computer. Simply place the >>device >>against the erroneous data,and pull it backwards over the letters. >>This >>should >> remove the error, and enable you to resume data entries. >> CAUTION: Excessive force may damage the data reception device. >> Insufficient force,however,may result in less than an >> acceptable deletion,and may require re-initialization of action >>as >>above. >> This device is designed with user maintenance in mind; however, >>if >>technical support is required, you can still call >> for help at 1-800-YOU-DUMMY > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 10:46:13 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08209 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23367; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:40:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23120 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.164] (du-148-233-78-164.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOA008VB6633X@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:39:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:41:40 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: sea salt, was..... In-reply-to: <002601bf5d8a$54890880$959dafc7@333> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3103 >Also, G., I am interested in importing your salt in our area in Vancouver, >Canada. Michael Welcome Michael and Robert, in a couple of weeks I will have details and will contact you. Many Thanks Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 11:47:59 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09943 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 11:47:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03900; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 11:42:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26097 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:57:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca16.vthokies.net [206.153.172.16]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14351 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:40:34 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.0.25.20000112151352.00a843f0@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.25 (Beta) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 11:03:11 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: gardner Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future In-Reply-To: <387B72FE.6840@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3104 At 07:14 AM 1/12/00 +1300, you wrote: >[snip] >Just as we have a need for threefold everything, so Demeter is the >economic sphere, while Biodynamics is actually the spiritual sphere, >with the BDAs being the cultural sphere. What we have with the BDA & >Demeter trying to own/'safeguard' the word Biodynamics is the economic >sphere again trying to take over the spiritual. If you want to see what >that does, look at NZ BD history for the last 20 years. > >Glen A. Dear Glen, Thank you for your good post. I am confused, however, by your last paragraph (above). You say Biodynamics represents the "spiritual sphere, with the BDA's being the cultural sphere." Do you mean the "rights or political sphere" instead of the "cultural sphere"? "Cultural" and "spiritual" are usually regarded as synonomous terms, being two alternative translations of Steiner's German term "Geistesleben". Sincerely, Malcolm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 14:00:48 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12845 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:00:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA29548; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 13:54:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29121 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 13:52:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.158.alltel.net [166.102.66.158]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id MAA01418 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:57:47 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <387DD4AA.A261CD28@erols.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:05:13 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Off: sea salt, was..... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3105 >Hugh: > >I'd love to add some of this superior salt to my hot sauces and other >chile products. > >Can you please provide some source info? > >And - Guillermo - here's your new career, man! Go into the exporting >business; start with this excellent salt. > >Give it a go! > >Robert. Robert, My source was Guillermo. He brought me some at Claymont, where I met you. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 14:14:21 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13105 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:14:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02269; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:08:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01377 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:04:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.116] (pm3shep1-163-21.intrepid.net [209.190.163.21]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA23334 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:09:13 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:13:19 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: sea salt, was..... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3106 I'm delivering cut and wrapped Claymont 'fed on biodynamically grown grasslands' beef through N.Va and parts of DC tomorrow. I'll include some of the world-finest Colema sea salt with each order of 10 lbs or more. (Enough to use in your cooking and eating of said beef.) That means that Robert will be getting some, and M.A.S..and..jeez, I better look at the list again!! There's both more salt AND more beef, so if you live in the area, or are headed this way (I have a tiny bit of freezer space) let me know. -Allan Balliett Claymont Court Charles Town, WV -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 14:48:30 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13934 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:48:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08601; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:42:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08364 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:41:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.116] (pm3shep1-163-21.intrepid.net [209.190.163.21]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA32689 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:46:27 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:50:35 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: sea salt, was..... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3107 > That means that Robert will be getting some, and M.A.S..and..jeez, >I better look at the list again!! I hope this is not an invasion of privacy :-), but Sally Fallon ordered 10 lbs of ground chuck after the last 'ad' ! (coincidence, I'm sure...or was it that blessed Colema sea salt premium? :-) Oh, and please don't call these grass-fed beef ads SPAM!! Later -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 15:12:22 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14597 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:12:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13030; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:06:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12245 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:02:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-67.106.alltel.net [166.102.67.106]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id OAA03378 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:07:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.362c33.25ae4f8f@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:57:57 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: BD Familiarity by Farmers Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3108 >I gave a presentation to ~ 70 grape growers in VA, all conventional farmers. >Before I started I asked two questions: >1) Show of hands of those familiar with the term organic farming - 50 hands >2) Show of hands of those familiar with the term biodynamic farming - 2 hands > >After the presentation all are familiar with BD but it shows, dramatically I >believe, that BD is an relative unknown and has not been well marketed. Is >this the job of the BDA? If organic is almost mainstream, biodynamic must be >considered fringe. > >Should we just call ourselves advanced organic growers? > >Hugh, do your customers in GA know what BD is or do you sell your produce as >organic? >Dan L Dear Dan, I definitely do label all my products as biodynamically grown. And I talk about it. People ask what it is, and usually I tell them something brief like, "It's the best eating." or "Top of the line Organic." or maybe a little more complex like "We grow our own hay, the cows turn it into compost for our veggies, and we use homeopathic remedies to bring the land to life. It's self-sufficient farming that regenerates the earth. Highest quality food, too. Try it." I've found it really helps to have this touch of something exotic and previously unheard of in my sales approach. People are entranced by it. It sells. I can't see any reason to say "organic" when what I have is really beyond organic. It's BIODYNAMIC! It has mystique, and that sells in my experience. Mind you, I do not put this forth in a timid, apologetic way. I come out with it as the voice of authority, real matter-of-fact. I think a lot of it is the style of delivery. When I tell people, and I am always telling them, "It's Biodynamically Grown" this makes them want to ask what that means and I am happy to tell them. Only rarely has anyone had any prior exposure to biodynamic, but that's just fine with me. Ocassionally someone is from Germany or France or Holland and has heard of biodynamic and they are overjoyed to find it here in America, the land of the worst food imaginable. Bogus bread and watery horse urine beer! Disgusting! They are absolutely joyeous to find some BD veggies, and never has a one asked me anything about Demeter either. So I find it works to say biodynamic when people have never heard of it and it works even better when they have heard of it. Seems to me like I can't lose by saying biodynamic. Another reason I think the term has to be seen as a generic term and not a trademark of the Demeter Association. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 15:36:38 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15055 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:36:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA17498; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:30:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16600 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:25:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from siesta (p26-max16.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.17.118.218]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id JAA25315 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:31:07 +1300 Message-ID: <003f01bf5e04$521bd8a0$da7611ce@siesta> From: "I & K Buckingham" To: References: <2.362c33.25ae4f8f@aol.com> Subject: Re: BD Familiarity by Farmers Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:24:18 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3109 ----- Original Message ----- From: > Should we just call ourselves advanced organic growers? IMO this is the problem. For convenience we use this description when really we should call ourselves biodynamic farmers and leave it at that. I myself are just as guilty as anyone and am now trying to correct the issue. Regards Ian Buckingham Maungatawhiri New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 15:51:35 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15312 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:51:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20926; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:45:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA20156 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:42:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from siesta (p26-max16.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.17.118.218]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id JAA27741 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:47:18 +1300 Message-ID: <006601bf5e06$94eae520$da7611ce@siesta> From: "I & K Buckingham" To: References: <20000111.170016.18446.5.LaQuerencia@juno.com> Subject: Re: weeds Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:41:29 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3110 ----- Original Message ----- From: Deborah M Byron To: Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 12:00 PM Subject: Re: weeds > Dear Hugh, Guillermo, everyone-- > > Is there a good resource book that summarizes which weeds like acid > versus those that like alkaline soil, so that one could do some > on-the-spot soil diagnosis? Deborah Any good farm weed book will give you some indication of soil conditions that plants like. I have been collecting, on a spreadsheet soil indicators and mineral accumulators which I am happy to e-mail to you if you would like it. You would still need a weed manual for plant identification purposes. Just remember that these plants are indicators only. eg thistles can be an indication of potash deficiency or simply soil structure damage. Adding potash would not solve the soil structure problem and vice versa. Regards Ian Buckingham Maungatawhiri New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 16:05:51 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15584 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:05:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23637; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:59:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22900 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:56:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([203.96.93.168]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000113210900.QGLO6460852.mta1-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:09:00 +1300 Message-ID: <387E3D64.7C61@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:02:28 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future References: <4.3.0.25.20000112151352.00a843f0@swva.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3111 gardner wrote: > > At 07:14 AM 1/12/00 +1300, you wrote: > > >[snip] > >Just as we have a need for threefold everything, so Demeter is the > >economic sphere, while Biodynamics is actually the spiritual sphere, > >with the BDAs being the cultural sphere. What we have with the BDA & > >Demeter trying to own/'safeguard' the word Biodynamics is the economic > >sphere again trying to take over the spiritual. If you want to see what > >that does, look at NZ BD history for the last 20 years. > > > >Glen A. > > Dear Glen, > > Thank you for your good post. I am confused, however, by your > last paragraph (above). You say Biodynamics represents the "spiritual > sphere, with the BDA's being the cultural sphere." Do you mean the "rights > or political sphere" instead of the "cultural sphere"? "Cultural" and > "spiritual" are usually regarded as synonomous terms, being two alternative > translations of Steiner's German term "Geistesleben". > > Sincerely, > > Malcolm Malcolm Thank you for any clarification. I have not studied the threefold material in detail , just been on the edges of many discussions, so from what you are saying it appears I am using the wrong words in the wrong place. I use the spiritual, economic and cultural words as they make sense to me. I would like to get them right so others can get my point. In the spirit, soul, body trilogy: spiritual is the 'pure' impulse of the activity, so I guess this is were the morals, ethics and spiritual intent are strongest. I can see how the political sphere can be part of this. Political in the sense of guiding the impulse, not political in the sense of economic manuipulation of the impulse. The 'economic' is like the body, where it meets the Earth and interfaces with the realities of everyday life, while the cultural (soul) area is in a sense what develops in the middle as an interaction of the two poles. I know the threefold pictures are usually drawn more as a triangle with smaller overlapping areas etc, so I am simplifying the concept. I did not know that 'spiritual' and 'cultural' were synonomous. Sounds confusing, which then brings us back to the BDAs In this context it is easy to see how the BDAs are political/spiritual sphere beings rather than cultural(social). What do you call my cultural? Anyway it appears there is a cross over of activities here. The BDAs are the place were interested people come to meet and share their desire for knowledge, experience and support (more and more around making more $) essentially creating the middle cultural life of the community, yet they are also the political/ spiritual body, which in NZ has had a very strong economic focus and role. The question is where is the spiritual activity of looking outwards at the potential of Biodynamics as a pure 'science' exploring its potential in all its possible forms. This is the research function and in a sense the most spiritual aspect of biodynamics. I sense your use of the word 'political' with regards the spiritual sphere is actually one of those crossover areas say between the spiritual and economic sphere. Afterall it is politics which appears to be interfering with the spiritual activity of BD development. eg Why is it that even after a BDANZ AGM in 1991 which supported inclusion of my research in the life of the association, have I found it impossible to publish anything about it in the journal, or present any of it more than the original 5 minute opportunity? Where was the invitation to present a fuller picture of it at the next AGM field days? It is little more than a development upon koliskos work yet it is 'a red rag to a bull' to those in charge of NZBDA politics. Hardly a spiritual activity. I guess I see another arm of the trilogy is needed. We have Demeter dealing with the economic and we have the BDAs doing the social, yet the 'research circle' function RS actually empowered with the initial development of Biodynamics is sadly lacking. Does it still exist in Europe? Where is it? Where is its national role in each country. BDAs have become the grab bag of all spheres and it appears not to be working. Anyway any clarification you can bring is most welcome. regards Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 16:39:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16381 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:39:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28135; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:33:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from m11.boston.juno.com (m11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.194]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28002 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:32:29 -0500 (EST) Received: "qvbuBYpd40NuYQRaxysYCTCCLpZjfAGKPWWkT6F0gyf6m7iECDWIFQ==" Received: (from laquerencia@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EV9AYF58; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:36:02 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:36:56 -0600 Subject: Re: BD master gardeners: was "weeds" Message-ID: <20000113.153656.21486.2.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: <20000111.170016.18446.5.LaQuerencia@juno.com> <006601bf5e06$94eae520$da7611ce@siesta> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5-12,24-25,27-30,32 From: Deborah M Byron Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3112 >Any good farm weed book will give you some indication of soil >conditions>that plants like. >I have been collecting, on a spreadsheet soil indicators and mineral >accumulators which I am happy to e-mail to you if you would like it. >You>would still need a weed manual for plant identification purposes. Just >remember that these plants are indicators only. eg thistles can be an >indication of potash deficiency or simply soil structure damage. >Adding>potash would not solve the soil structure problem and vice versa. Dear Ian, I would very much like to see your spreadsheet. The question comes up because I am taking what is called here a Master Gardeners program which is only beginning to include basic rudimentary organic farming information (yes, it is quite stultifying). During each section, I sit there imagining how to convert the whole 40 hour program into something that would teach about living soil and food. Apparently people are starting to request such a program but it appears someone will have to volunteer to organize it. Obviously in this, the land of agribiz-subsidized higher education, no one is willing to pay someone to do such work. So I thought I would begin collecting materials for a possible organic farming specialization and perhaps infiltrate the organizing committee. Your work would be a welcome place to start. Does anyone know of a Master Gardeners program that has already converted to organic? Warm regards, Deborah PS: if you'll be sending attachments please use this email address: hlspentvalue@igc.org ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 16:58:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16924 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:58:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00395; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:52:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.41]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00012 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:49:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.164] (du-148-233-78-231.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOA002DTNHDZ5@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:53:40 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:44:57 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: sea salt, was..... In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3113 >> That means that Robert will be getting some, and M.A.S..and..jeez, >>I better look at the list again!! > >I hope this is not an invasion of privacy :-), but Sally Fallon >ordered 10 lbs of ground chuck after the last 'ad' ! (coincidence, >I'm sure...or was it that blessed Colema sea salt premium? :-) > >Oh, and please don't call these grass-fed beef ads SPAM!! > >Later > >-Allan >-- Is Ms. Fallon subscribed to BD-Now ? Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 17:03:14 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17012 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:03:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00986; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:57:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov (megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov [199.133.133.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00850 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:56:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.133.131.5] (marvel.salinas.ars.usda.gov [199.133.131.5]) by megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id OAA27692 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:16:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200001132216.OAA27692@megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:13:27 -0800 Subject: Re: weeds From: "Joel Stryker" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3114 Ian, I would love a copy of your weeds spreadsheet, if you don't mind sending out another one. Thanks, Joel ---------- > I have been collecting, on a spreadsheet soil indicators and mineral > accumulators which I am happy to e-mail to you if you would like it. You > would still need a weed manual for plant identification purposes. Just > remember that these plants are indicators only. eg thistles can be an > indication of potash deficiency or simply soil structure damage. Adding > potash would not solve the soil structure problem and vice versa. > > Regards > > Ian Buckingham > Maungatawhiri > New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 18:15:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18553 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:15:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08482; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:09:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08147 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:05:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (sdn-ar-002azphoeP318.dialsprint.net [206.133.140.96]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15704 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:11:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <387E5DC1.B61C040E@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:20:33 -0700 From: Jim and Jenni Muir X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {TLC;RETAIL} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds References: <20000111.170016.18446.5.LaQuerencia@juno.com> <006601bf5e06$94eae520$da7611ce@siesta> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3115 Ian, I too, would love a copy of your spreadsheet! I appreciate you making it available. Thank you! Jim and Jenni Muir I & K Buckingham wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Deborah M Byron > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 12:00 PM > Subject: Re: weeds > > > Dear Hugh, Guillermo, everyone-- > > > > Is there a good resource book that summarizes which weeds like acid > > versus those that like alkaline soil, so that one could do some > > on-the-spot soil diagnosis? > > Deborah > > Any good farm weed book will give you some indication of soil conditions > that plants like. > I have been collecting, on a spreadsheet soil indicators and mineral > accumulators which I am happy to e-mail to you if you would like it. You > would still need a weed manual for plant identification purposes. Just > remember that these plants are indicators only. eg thistles can be an > indication of potash deficiency or simply soil structure damage. Adding > potash would not solve the soil structure problem and vice versa. > > Regards > > Ian Buckingham > Maungatawhiri > New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 18:24:52 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18726 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:24:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09301; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:19:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08961 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:15:35 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.9f.c6d25d (4381) for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:20:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9f.c6d25d.25afb7b1@aol.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:20:17 EST Subject: Re: weeds - spreadsheet To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3116 Ian, I too would appreciate a copy. Thanks, Dan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 18:24:59 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18734 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:24:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09335; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:19:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09008 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (cust7.nrvmax3.tor1.netrover.com [205.209.27.7]) by river.netrover.com (8.9.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA17270 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:21:25 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-From: villager@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: [Off]Re: weeds Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:23:58 -0500 Message-ID: <01bf5e1d$4478e760$3855bace@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3117 Ian : If it's no trouble to send, i would also find the data/spreadsheet useful. I do have "weeds and what they tell "..... thanks, manfred palmer, villager@netrover.com -----Original Message----- From: I & K Buckingham To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, January 13, 2000 3:50 PM Subject: Re: weeds > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Deborah M Byron >To: >Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 12:00 PM >Subject: Re: weeds > > >> Dear Hugh, Guillermo, everyone-- >> >> Is there a good resource book that summarizes which weeds like acid >> versus those that like alkaline soil, so that one could do some >> on-the-spot soil diagnosis? > >Deborah > >Any good farm weed book will give you some indication of soil conditions >that plants like. >I have been collecting, on a spreadsheet soil indicators and mineral >accumulators which I am happy to e-mail to you if you would like it. You >would still need a weed manual for plant identification purposes. Just >remember that these plants are indicators only. eg thistles can be an >indication of potash deficiency or simply soil structure damage. Adding >potash would not solve the soil structure problem and vice versa. > >Regards > >Ian Buckingham >Maungatawhiri >New Zealand > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 18:43:47 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA19018 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:43:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10920; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:38:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.txcyber.com (root@mail.txcyber.com [205.140.147.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10681 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:35:01 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp239.cy-net.net [208.21.195.48]) by mail.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22194 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:40:17 -0600 Message-Id: <200001132340.RAA22194@mail.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:38:38 -0600 Subject: Re: Off: sea salt, was..... Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3118 Guillermo, This is good news. I just bought a pound of RealSalt(TM) at my local health food store. I'd been buying their sea salt, which is about as refined as normal Morton's table salt. This RealSalt is 'dirty salt', and looks and tastes much more interesting. I paid .59 lb for the sea salt and 1.99 lb for the RealSalt. (Interesting that they trademarked as a brand name.) These items are in bulk bins, prices noticed on the bin container and the customer just uses scoops to measure out the amount they need, no preset amounts. You may be able to sell it that way also. Next time I go in I can ask them where they get their bulk salts. (Occasionally I sell my goat milk soap through them, so I'm kinda more than a customer.) Also, Shepherd's Garden seeds catalog has French Sea Salt 'made by solar dehydration', for $5 for a 1 lb bag. Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 18:58:17 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA19275 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:58:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12133; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:52:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11887 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:49:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([210.55.144.27]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000113235925.FYW21196.mta2-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:59:25 +1300 Message-ID: <387E65F4.17A1@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:55:32 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds References: <20000111.170016.18446.5.LaQuerencia@juno.com> <006601bf5e06$94eae520$da7611ce@siesta> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3119 I would like one too please Ian. Glen A. I & K Buckingham wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Deborah M Byron > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 12:00 PM > Subject: Re: weeds > > > Dear Hugh, Guillermo, everyone-- > > > > Is there a good resource book that summarizes which weeds like acid > > versus those that like alkaline soil, so that one could do some > > on-the-spot soil diagnosis? > > Deborah > > Any good farm weed book will give you some indication of soil conditions > that plants like. > I have been collecting, on a spreadsheet soil indicators and mineral > accumulators which I am happy to e-mail to you if you would like it. You > would still need a weed manual for plant identification purposes. Just > remember that these plants are indicators only. eg thistles can be an > indication of potash deficiency or simply soil structure damage. Adding > potash would not solve the soil structure problem and vice versa. > > Regards > > Ian Buckingham > Maungatawhiri > New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 19:02:57 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA19360 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12519; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:57:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA12162 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:52:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d143.infoserve.net [199.175.157.143]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA04219 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:02:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002001bf5e22$ebf404c0$8f9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: BD master gardeners: was "weeds" Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:04:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3120 The Masters Gardeners program thru the Van Dusen Botanical Garden here in Vancouver, BC, Canada, teaches some organics in gardening, but, also chemicals. However, the organic component is large and has growing interest. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Deborah M Byron To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, January 13, 2000 1:42 PM Subject: Re: BD master gardeners: was "weeds" >>Any good farm weed book will give you some indication of soil >>conditions>that plants like. >>I have been collecting, on a spreadsheet soil indicators and mineral >>accumulators which I am happy to e-mail to you if you would like it. >>You>would still need a weed manual for plant identification purposes. >Just >>remember that these plants are indicators only. eg thistles can be an >>indication of potash deficiency or simply soil structure damage. >>Adding>potash would not solve the soil structure problem and vice versa. > > >Dear Ian, > > I would very much like to see your spreadsheet. The question comes >up because I am taking what is called here a Master Gardeners program >which is only beginning to include basic rudimentary organic farming >information (yes, it is quite stultifying). During each section, I sit >there imagining how to convert the whole 40 hour program into something >that would teach about living soil and food. Apparently people are >starting to request such a program but it appears someone will have to >volunteer to organize it. Obviously in this, the land of >agribiz-subsidized higher education, no one is willing to pay someone to >do such work. So I thought I would begin collecting materials for a >possible organic farming specialization and perhaps infiltrate the >organizing committee. Your work would be a welcome place to start. > > Does anyone know of a Master Gardeners program that has already >converted to organic? > >Warm regards, >Deborah >PS: if you'll be sending attachments please use this email address: >hlspentvalue@igc.org > >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 19:03:12 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA19370 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12569; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:57:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA12460 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:57:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d143.infoserve.net [199.175.157.143]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA04410 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:06:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <005201bf5e23$7f259920$8f9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: weeds and indicators spreadsheet Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:08:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004F_01BF5DE0.6DC44520" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3121 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BF5DE0.6DC44520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Ian, If not too much trouble, could you send me one too!! Michael mroboz@infoserve.net ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BF5DE0.6DC44520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Ian,
 
  If not too much = trouble, could you=20 send me one too!!
Michael  =20 mroboz@infoserve.net
------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BF5DE0.6DC44520-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 19:31:50 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA19701 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA14930; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA14804 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:24:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.52.alltel.net [166.102.66.52]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id SAA00521; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:29:53 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <387E3D64.7C61@xtra.co.nz> References: <4.3.0.25.20000112151352.00a843f0@swva.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:35:17 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Threefold Social Order and BD Cc: dmhinds@acnet.net Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3122 Dear Glen, et. al., This threefolding of society is another of those things that is fundamental to biodynamic farming, and I tried to make it at least as clear as mud in my book. Chapters XII, XIII and XIV go into detail and tie the social spheres together with the threefolding of the human being and all the rest. Because I didn't want to get caught in the religious kneejerk reactions people get into if I'm calling the spiritual sphere this complicated Religious/cultural translation of Steiner's Geistesleben (literally spirit life) I called this element of our social order the SIGNIFICANCE sphere and tried to make it clear that science, philosophy and religion were all a part of this together. I guess you know about this from being an astrologer--Sagitarrius and the ninth house and all that. Anyway, I spent three chapters making this social order stuff a little less opaque than it otherwise might be and you can read about it because you have a copy of my book. I packed so much stuff in that book that even I am sometimes amazed--like my basic rules for clear communication on page 171. Anyway it will never do to think of biodynamics as a set of rote procedures to grow crops. It is much more than that. It truly is a revolutionary spiritual practice and this threefold social order concept is one of the basic elements that lie behind biodynamic practices. I know some people are impatient with me when I tell them things like this when what they want to know is how to get enough calcium up into their apples at an early enough stage in their growth. Biodynamic farmers have used horn silica and horn manure for 75 years and never connected the threefoldedness of society idea up with their farming practices and had it dawn on them they needed to be using horn clay as the third leg of their prep package. It is the horn clay that gets the calcium up into the apple when it starts to fill out. Man is made of clay. There's a lot of wisdom in that. All the stuff about our preps being applied to the widest possible areas of the earth so that a bridge is built between the will and thinking? 75 years and very little progress was made toward that goal! BD farmers needed to understand the threefold social order to realize they had a BD prep missing! The threefold social order is a key idea for the BD farmer and people are wrong to think we can just follow some set of rote procedures to farm biodynamically. We haven't done anywhere near an adequate job of farming biodynamically in the past. You're going to see when you visit here next summer what an incredible advance the use of biodynamic horn clay is. We've needed three horn preps all along and we were falling flat all the time just using two. It is a mystery why almost no one in biodynamics had a clear perception of this until Greg came along and started using horn clay as a key part of his biodynamic programs. You might think when you read my three chapters on the threefold social order that at least I would have realized what was missing. But I didn't. It took me stepping into Topolos' vineyard before I saw that horn clay bridged the chasm between lime and silica and integrated the whole farm organism. Then I put it together with the threefold social order idea and saw how absolutely essential it was to use biodynamic horn clay on our farms. I have called Greg's introduction of horn clay into his biodynamic programs the most important advance in the 75 year history of biodynamics. That's NOT an exageration. It is the same thing as having to have a heart in between our heads and our guts or we don't have a functional human organism. We have to have a political sphere between the significance and the economic spheres or we don't have a functional society. We have to have a healthy ego between our will and our thinking or we are disempowered in our activities and off base with our thoughts. This threefold understanding is key to understanding the importance of horn clay, which is immensely helpful for getting the lime element up into the fruit of our plants. This idea lies behind the reason honey has the forces to help elderly women keep calcium in their bones and other sweeteners don't do the job. The threefold idea is one of the keys to understanding biodynamics. Incidentally, list readers, Greg has horn clay available. His e-mail address is: srcosmos@interx.net I believe Courtney will have horn clay available in a year or so from JPI. It takes a year to make it. I make my broadcaster reagents with a Malcolm Rae Extended Range Potentizer from geometric cards. And I have four horn clay cards, Fall to Fall HC, Spring to Spring HC, Spring to Fall HC and Fall to Spring HC. If you're using radionics on your farm or in your garden (I talk about this in my Evolution of Biodynamics and Rain article which will be in the first issue of the ABA journal) you can get these horn clay cards and the Potentizer from the Malcolm Rae Institute in London, UK. Best wishes, Hugh Lovel Glen Atkinson posted, >> >> Dear Glen, >> >> Thank you for your good post. I am confused, however, by your >> last paragraph (above). You say Biodynamics represents the "spiritual >> sphere, with the BDA's being the cultural sphere." Do you mean the "rights >> or political sphere" instead of the "cultural sphere"? "Cultural" and >> "spiritual" are usually regarded as synonomous terms, being two alternative >> translations of Steiner's German term "Geistesleben". >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Malcolm > >Malcolm >Thank you for any clarification. I have not studied the threefold >material in detail, just been on the edges of many discussions, so from >what you are saying it appears I am using the wrong words in the wrong >place. > >I use the spiritual, economic and cultural words as they make sense to >me. > >I would like to get them right so others can get my point. > >In the spirit, soul, body trilogy: spiritual is the 'pure' impulse of >the activity, so I guess this is were the morals, ethics and spiritual >intent are strongest. I can see how the political sphere can be part of >this. Political in the sense of guiding the impulse, not political in >the sense of economic manuipulation of the impulse. > The 'economic' is like the body, where it meets the Earth and >interfaces with the realities of everyday life, while the cultural >(soul) area is in a sense what develops in the middle as an interaction >of the two poles. > >I know the threefold pictures are usually drawn more as a triangle with >smaller overlapping areas etc, so I am simplifying the concept. > >I did not know that 'spiritual' and 'cultural' were synonomous. Sounds >confusing, which then brings us back to the BDAs > >In this context it is easy to see how the BDAs are political/spiritual >sphere beings rather than cultural(social). What do you call my >cultural? > >Anyway it appears there is a cross over of activities here. The BDAs are >the place where interested people come to meet and share their desire for >knowledge, experience and support (more and more around making more $) >essentially creating the middle cultural life of the community, yet they >are also the political/ spiritual body, which in NZ has had a very >strong economic focus and role. The question is where is the spiritual >activity of looking outwards at the potential of Biodynamics as a pure >'science' exploring its potential in all its possible forms. This is the >research function and in a sense the most spiritual aspect of >biodynamics. >I sense your use of the word 'political' with regards the spiritual >sphere is actually one of those crossover areas say between the >spiritual and economic sphere. > >Afterall it is politics which appears to be interfering with the >spiritual activity of BD development. eg Why is it that even after a >BDANZ AGM in 1991 which supported inclusion of my research in the life >of the association, have I found it impossible to publish anything about >it in the journal, or present any of it more than the original 5 minute >opportunity? Where was the invitation to present a fuller picture of it >at the next AGM field days? It is little more than a development upon >koliskos work yet it is 'a red rag to a bull' to those in charge of >NZBDA politics. Hardly a spiritual activity. > >I guess I see another arm of the trilogy is needed. We have Demeter >dealing with the economic and we have the BDAs doing the social, yet the >'research circle' function RS actually empowered with the initial >development of Biodynamics is sadly lacking. Does it still exist in >Europe? Where is it? Where is its national role in each country. > >BDAs have become the grab bag of all spheres and it appears not to be >working. > >Anyway any clarification you can bring is most welcome. > >regards > >Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 20:05:15 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20109 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:05:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA18275; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:59:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18015 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.221] (du-148-233-78-221.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOA00FL3W1OAC@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:58:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:00:51 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: weeds and indicators spreadsheet In-reply-to: <005201bf5e23$7f259920$8f9dafc7@333> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3123 > Dear Ian, If not too much trouble, could you send me one too!! Michael mroboz@infoserve.net It seems to me that you should arrange to upload your spreadsheet into a public dowloading library or arrange with Allan to establish something like that in the BD-Now web page. In any case, I would also would want to look at it, if posible in an MS Excel 5.0 compatible format Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 20:24:40 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20445 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:24:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA21096; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:18:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from cobalt9-fe.global.net.uk (cobalt9-fe.global.net.uk [195.147.250.169]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19364 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:10:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from p00s05a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.229.1] helo=compaq) by cobalt9-fe.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 128Tet-00013X-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 19:42:20 +0000 Message-ID: <387E7735.34C7@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 01:09:09 +0000 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds and indicators References: <005201bf5e23$7f259920$8f9dafc7@333> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3124 Might I put my two penny worth into this pot please! There is clearly a great deal of interest in wild plants or weeds as they seem to be called,this idea really extends to sea vegetables which are of great food value but when called seaweeds tend to not be so attractive certainly to first time users! My medium is as you probably all know now in poetical form so here goes! For a while I've watched and pondered Why weeds appear to be Not that important in the scheme of things Why some can't see That they provide such knowledge And Esoterically Ought to get a better hearing Than they do, sadly Yes, they indicate irregularities Types of soil,condition,yes that's right But as we're primed and sensitive,it follows That we ought not really get so,well up tight Wild plants scattered all about by Gods almighty hand We really must remember and try to understand Co-existence should now be the order of the day Not methods to exterminate what ever comes our way We operate vibrationally As do the wild plants so Where they fall and germinate Tis where they ought to grow So our gardens are reflecting Our habits, and our health The earth we wander over every day Can be our wealth Knowledge from within Is a generous enough way To get to grips with alchemy Plants do it every day Sorrel means acidity But our own blood could be Moving perhaps down that road That's what it means to me Sorrel, Couch and other plants At this time I can't recall Provide this given knowledge And release Chalk,yes that's all In us Rheumatic painfulness Sciatica and more Are alleviated quite a bit If you eat some cooked or raw We harbingers of excellence Our preps that we apply Some herbs we pull out of the ground And compost or air dry I feel Mr Steiner, must have realised God in all his wisdom The wild plants must have prized For he undertook to balance If all else fails to try Alchemically to process So that dear friends is why The land will be looked after But we won't always see Preferring to go out and buy our new machinery When every so called weed is driven out Mowed down, and lost Our own health, could then suffer In the ether then we're tossed What comes up, as we vibrate Is knowledge,its out there And we must grasp the nettle And offer up our prayer Let Nature be the boss And just appreciate the worth Wild Plants put there by the hand of God Protect the earth We don't need Lime, if sorrel's there For it provides the chalk Just read what Nature's saying Wherever you now walk The thistles,Comfrey,Shepherds Purse Dandelions and more Nettles all have uses It doesnt just mean war They provide the remedy If we're prepared to wait The Earth was there before we were And will be there, when we vacate. Rex Tyler -- ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 20:43:37 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20677 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:43:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23904; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:37:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from 450-2.midcoast.com.au (root@kmidc69-3.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA23535 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:33:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-89.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.89]) by 450-2.midcoast.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA10482 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:29:48 +1100 Message-ID: <00ee01bf5e2f$f31b7500$59431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: weeds Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:22:43 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3125 Dear Ian, yes I would love a copy too. I thought thistles were copper deficiency. I have thistles growing in an old fire area, with lots of potash! Good to hear from you again, Cheryl Kemp Education & News Leaf Editor Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. of Australia Inc. P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 email: bio@midcoast.com.au >remember that these plants are indicators only. eg thistles can be an >indication of potash deficiency or simply soil structure damage. Adding >potash would not solve the soil structure problem and vice versa. > >Regards > >Ian Buckingham >Maungatawhiri >New Zealand > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 20:48:15 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20710 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:48:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA24253; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:42:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA24088 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:40:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.221] (du-148-233-78-221.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOA005UBY5MEI@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:44:15 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:46:25 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: weeds and indicators In-reply-to: <387E7735.34C7@globalnet.co.uk> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <005201bf5e23$7f259920$8f9dafc7@333> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3126 >Might I put my two penny worth into this pot please! >There is clearly a great deal of interest in wild plants or weeds >as they seem to be called,this idea really extends to sea vegetables >which are of great food value but when called seaweeds tend to not be so >attractive certainly to first time users! >My medium is as you probably all know now in poetical form so here goes! > >For a while I've watched and pondered >Why weeds appear to be >Not that important in the scheme of things >Why some can't see >That they provide such knowledge >And Esoterically >Ought to get a better hearing >Than they do, sadly > >Yes, they indicate irregularities >Types of soil,condition,yes that's right >But as we're primed and sensitive,it follows >That we ought not really get so,well up tight >Wild plants scattered all about by Gods almighty hand >We really must remember and try to understand >Co-existence should now be the order of the day >Not methods to exterminate what ever comes our way > >We operate vibrationally >As do the wild plants so >Where they fall and germinate >Tis where they ought to grow >So our gardens are reflecting >Our habits, and our health >The earth we wander over every day >Can be our wealth > >Knowledge from within >Is a generous enough way >To get to grips with alchemy >Plants do it every day >Sorrel means acidity >But our own blood could be >Moving perhaps down that road >That's what it means to me >Sorrel, Couch and other plants >At this time I can't recall >Provide this given knowledge >And release Chalk,yes that's all >In us Rheumatic painfulness >Sciatica and more >Are alleviated quite a bit >If you eat some cooked or raw > >We harbingers of excellence >Our preps that we apply >Some herbs we pull out of the ground >And compost or air dry >I feel Mr Steiner, must have realised >God in all his wisdom >The wild plants must have prized >For he undertook to balance >If all else fails to try >Alchemically to process >So that dear friends is why > >The land will be looked after >But we won't always see >Preferring to go out and buy our new machinery >When every so called weed is driven out >Mowed down, and lost >Our own health, could then suffer >In the ether then we're tossed >What comes up, as we vibrate >Is knowledge,its out there >And we must grasp the nettle >And offer up our prayer > >Let Nature be the boss >And just appreciate the worth >Wild Plants put there by the hand of God >Protect the earth >We don't need Lime, if sorrel's there >For it provides the chalk >Just read what Nature's saying >Wherever you now walk >The thistles,Comfrey,Shepherds Purse >Dandelions and more >Nettles all have uses >It doesnt just mean war >They provide the remedy >If we're prepared to wait >The Earth was there before we were >And will be there, when we vacate. > > >Rex Tyler > Dear Rex: Great as always, Many thanks Your fan. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 21:26:44 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21193 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:26:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26883; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:20:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com [207.46.181.18]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA26643 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:17:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from micron - 63.17.183.26 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:22:00 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01bf5e36$4fbe9c00$1ab7113f@micron> From: "Wells" To: References: <20000111.170016.18446.5.LaQuerencia@juno.com> <006601bf5e06$94eae520$da7611ce@siesta> <387E5DC1.B61C040E@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: weeds Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:23:13 -0800 Organization: Microsoft Corporation X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3127 Maybe you should put this spreadsheet on BDNOW! ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Jenni Muir To: Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 3:20 PM Subject: Re: weeds > Ian, > I too, would love a copy of your spreadsheet! I appreciate you making it > available. > > Thank you! > Jim and Jenni Muir > > I & K Buckingham wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Deborah M Byron > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 12:00 PM > > Subject: Re: weeds > > > > > Dear Hugh, Guillermo, everyone-- > > > > > > Is there a good resource book that summarizes which weeds like acid > > > versus those that like alkaline soil, so that one could do some > > > on-the-spot soil diagnosis? > > > > Deborah > > > > Any good farm weed book will give you some indication of soil conditions > > that plants like. > > I have been collecting, on a spreadsheet soil indicators and mineral > > accumulators which I am happy to e-mail to you if you would like it. You > > would still need a weed manual for plant identification purposes. Just > > remember that these plants are indicators only. eg thistles can be an > > indication of potash deficiency or simply soil structure damage. Adding > > potash would not solve the soil structure problem and vice versa. > > > > Regards > > > > Ian Buckingham > > Maungatawhiri > > New Zealand > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 21:45:39 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21368 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:45:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA28287; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:39:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.clarityconnect.com (smtp.clarityconnect.com [206.64.143.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28179 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:37:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.clarityconnect.com (206.64.143.5) by smtp.clarityconnect.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 3.0b3); Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:43:03 -0500 Received: from dharner.clarityconnect.com (209.150.224.38) by mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 3.0b3); Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:43:02 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.32.20000113214351.006bc470@clarityconnect.com> X-Sender: dharner@clarityconnect.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:43:53 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Don Harner Subject: weeds and indicators spreadsheet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3128 Ian, I would like a copy of your spreadsheet. dharner@clarityconnect.com Thanks Emma From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 22:24:02 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21802 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:24:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00794; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:18:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00674 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:16:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-126.s126.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.126] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 128xIQ-0001Bf-00; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:21:06 -0500 Message-ID: <387E9675.15443B0C@erols.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:22:29 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Off: sea salt, was..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3129 Hugh: Nope - wasn't thinking about G's sea salt. I mean the stuff you got from China and other parts Asian. TIA, Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 22:28:42 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21898 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:28:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01136; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:23:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00819 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:19:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-126.s126.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.126] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 128xLB-0001i5-00; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:23:57 -0500 Message-ID: <387E9721.F2A2392A@erols.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:25:21 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds References: <20000111.170016.18446.5.LaQuerencia@juno.com> <006601bf5e06$94eae520$da7611ce@siesta> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3130 Hi, Ian. I'd like a copy of that spreadsheet, please. TIA, Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 22:33:26 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21985 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:33:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01483; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:27:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01248 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:24:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.129.alltel.net [166.102.66.129]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id VAA00993 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:29:59 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <387E9675.15443B0C@erols.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:37:28 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Off: sea salt, was..... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3131 >Hugh: > >Nope - wasn't thinking about G's sea salt. > >I mean the stuff you got from China and other parts Asian. > >TIA, > >Robert. The Korean sea salt I buy at an oriental farmer's market off Jimmy Carter Blvd. in Atlanta. There's a couple different brands and grades. The Emperor Sea Salt from China was given to me a Japanese friend. I don't know where he gets it, but he brought it with him from Japan. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 23:07:08 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22328 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 23:07:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04267; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 23:01:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net (spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net [207.108.48.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA04017 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:57:23 -0500 (EST) From: d2allen@uswest.net Received: (qmail 1958 invoked by alias); 14 Jan 2000 04:02:40 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-bdnow@envirolink.org@fixme Received: (qmail 1943 invoked by uid 0); 14 Jan 2000 04:02:39 -0000 Received: from dialupf249.spkn.uswest.net (HELO pop.spkn.uswest.net) (207.108.54.249) by spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net with SMTP; 14 Jan 2000 04:02:39 -0000 Message-ID: <387E9D7E.DFB5DB9A@pop.spkn.uswest.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:52:30 -0800 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {U S WEST.net} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNOW Subject: Mechanical cultivators Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3132 To all, I have a question about mechanical cultivators. Specifically, I am seriously considering buying a new BCS walk behind rototiller. How do biodynamic farmers view these machines? Assuming they are ok (in moderation), any comments/advice on size (hp) and engine (briggs and Stratton) would be most welcome. I am thinking of getting an 8 or 9 hp machine. I will be using the rototiller to transform old orchard ground (fruit trees were removed) that is compacted, with a crust on top, quack grass, moss, weeds, generally abused ground - but potentially very good (30'+ deep silt loam). The areas I want to work over are small (1/2 acre or less) for wine grapes, vegetables, and to establish shrubs, trees and diverse ground cover. I do have an old 8n tractor with mower, spike tooth and spring tooth harrows, but prefer not to rely on it because I think it compacts the soil. I trust this question is apropos within the list serve, perhaps no less so than the engineer jokes and Darwin awards; which I enjoyed very much. I appreciate your comments and suggestions (about the tiller of course). Best, Deidre Spokane, Washington From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 13 23:50:02 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22862 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 23:50:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA06769; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 23:44:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA06589 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 23:40:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.50.58.89] (A03.reach.net [204.50.58.34]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA07320 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 23:46:53 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 23:46:53 -0500 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Re: Mechanical cultivators Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3133 >To all, > >I have a question about mechanical cultivators. >Specifically, I am seriously considering buying a new BCS >walk behind rototiller. How do biodynamic farmers view these >machines? etc... >Best, > >Deidre >Spokane, Washington I'm nowhere near a BD farmer, but I would get a BCS, or even a Gravely walk behind instead of the tough but only 6.5 horse Sears rototiller I have. In fact I probably will this year, now that I will have close to 2 acres of vines in - planted to 4 foot rows, so a walk behind or a draught horse are the only real options. Cheers, Geoff Heinricks Prince Edward Co, Ontario From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 14 00:14:59 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA23108 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:14:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA09185; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:09:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA07485 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 23:58:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.145.alltel.net [166.102.66.145]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id XAA11859 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 23:03:35 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:11:04 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Mechanical cultivators Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3134 >>To all, >> >>I have a question about mechanical cultivators. >>Specifically, I am seriously considering buying a new BCS >>walk behind rototiller. How do biodynamic farmers view these >>machines? >etc... >>Best, >> >>Deidre >>Spokane, Washington > >I'm nowhere near a BD farmer, but I would get a BCS, or even a Gravely walk >behind instead of the tough but only 6.5 horse Sears rototiller I have. In >fact I probably will this year, now that I will have close to 2 acres of >vines in - planted to 4 foot rows, so a walk behind or a draught horse are >the only real options. > >Cheers, >Geoff Heinricks >Prince Edward Co, Ontario Actually Deidre, I've farmed with a walk behind tiller, and found it creates a hard pan about 5 inches deep that rivals the worst disadvantages of mouldboard plows and disc harrows. I found that a front tined tiller with a good sharp drag stake to bust up the tiller pan as you move along--though it is harder work--was far preferable in terms of what is done to the soil. Of course, spading machines, spring tooth harrows, chisel plows, sub-soilers and all such things as that are what you really need for cultivation if you want to reverse the hard pan business and open up your soil for crop roots. I doubt if you wanted to hear this, but if you're only doing a small garden you'll get better results double digging John Jeavon's style than with a walk behind tiller. And if you're doing farming on a big enough scale, a spading machine with about a 35hp tractor with a creeper gear or hydrostatic transmission is what you want to shoot for. Sincerely, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 14 00:15:06 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA23120 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:15:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA09242; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:09:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07589 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:00:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (cust31.nrvmax6.tor1.netrover.com [206.186.85.31]) by river.netrover.com (8.9.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA26172 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:05:34 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-From: villager@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: Re: Mechanical cultivators Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:02:12 -0500 Message-ID: <01bf5e4c$8515ff40$1f55bace@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3135 Deidre : I have used a 10 hp bcs. for years in my csa. They claim to have about double the rotation speed of most other tillers..... like, this is desirable? If you want nice-looking fluff, it will do it. However, i've seen over the years that the effects of the churning,inverting/mixing of the upper strata of soil is a damaging thing to the structure and microlife. Also, any tiller will create a hardpan eventually if not sooner, as it fairly grinds away to a uniform depth, smearing the bottom and sides in its motion. Since i can't finance a spader machine at this time, i still do use the tiller, but not very deep,and mainly for a seed bed, and usually following a pass with a springtine cultivator, tractor drawn. There are tractor mounted spaders and walkbehind spaders. A great source for these can be found at http://www.approtecag.com/ Their great feature is that they do not invert the layers as tillers do, amongst other things. [you can read their description in more detail at the web site] If you have a choice to start out this way, in my and many bd practitioners' opinion, it's the way to go. You'll find neighbors keen to have you "do a few passes" for them. Hope this helps. As soon as i get mine, i'll have a bcs for sale! [though ,as tillers go, they are great, especially with the attachments] Hope this helps., ............manfred palmer -----Original Message----- From: d2allen@uswest.net To: BDNOW Date: Thursday, January 13, 2000 11:07 PM Subject: Mechanical cultivators >To all, > >I have a question about mechanical cultivators. >Specifically, I am seriously considering buying a new BCS >walk behind rototiller. How do biodynamic farmers view these >machines? > >Assuming they are ok (in moderation), any comments/advice on >size (hp) and engine (briggs and Stratton) would be most >welcome. I am thinking of getting an 8 or 9 hp machine. > >I will be using the rototiller to transform old orchard >ground (fruit trees were removed) that is compacted, with a >crust on top, quack grass, moss, weeds, generally abused >ground - but potentially very good (30'+ deep silt loam). >The areas I want to work over are small (1/2 acre or less) >for wine grapes, vegetables, and to establish shrubs, trees >and diverse ground cover. I do have an old 8n tractor with >mower, spike tooth and spring tooth harrows, but prefer not >to rely on it because I think it compacts the soil. > >I trust this question is apropos within the list serve, >perhaps no less so than the engineer jokes and Darwin >awards; which I enjoyed very much. > >I appreciate your comments and suggestions (about the tiller >of course). > >Best, > >Deidre >Spokane, Washington > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 14 03:10:06 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA24716 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 03:10:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA16594; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 03:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA09648 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.54] (r-66.145.alltel.net [166.102.66.145]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id XAA11371 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 23:20:48 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <387E9D7E.DFB5DB9A@pop.spkn.uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:28:17 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Mechanical cultivators Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3136 > I do have an old 8n tractor with >mower, spike tooth and spring tooth harrows, but prefer not >to rely on it because I think it compacts the soil. Deirdre, Consider taking off the outer feet on your spring tooth harrows and only using the three feet in the middle. Then you can plow beds and leave the wheel paths your tractor rides on in sod. The compaction in your growing areas is reduced to near zero, and you can get in and our of your growing areas in a much wider range of weather conditions. There are many advantages to having these walking an riding strips in vegetation, especially clover, and mowing throughout the growing season. Spokane has very nice climate and soils, and the Palouse country is arguably the best wheat land in the world. Lucky you. If you came to Georgia and saw farmers working this red clay you'd wonder why some of them bother. In my own case where I have learned how to turn this terra cotta into chocolate cake it shows there is hope. You'd never guess that driving through most of this state at spring planting season though. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 14 03:10:10 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA24723 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 03:10:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA16631; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 03:04:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12244 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 01:15:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d161.infoserve.net [199.175.157.161]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id WAA29181 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:24:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001301bf5e58$4ddfaa60$a19dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: weeds and indicators Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:26:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3137 Dear Rex and bdnowers, Many thanks for the poem, Rex. In fact, I worked on a farm about 15 years ago with a guy who did exactly that. He looked at the weeds, which told him what was deficient. He "weeded" selectively. If the "weeds" were putting into the soil what he wanted, he left them in for some time. Especially in summer when the soil needed some groundcover against the heat in this volcanic clay area of Hawai'i. Other weeds, he took out. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Cook's Delight To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, January 13, 2000 5:28 PM Subject: Re: weeds and indicators >Might I put my two penny worth into this pot please! >There is clearly a great deal of interest in wild plants or weeds >as they seem to be called,this idea really extends to sea vegetables >which are of great food value but when called seaweeds tend to not be so >attractive certainly to first time users! >My medium is as you probably all know now in poetical form so here goes! > >For a while I've watched and pondered >Why weeds appear to be >Not that important in the scheme of things >Why some can't see >That they provide such knowledge >And Esoterically >Ought to get a better hearing >Than they do, sadly > >Yes, they indicate irregularities >Types of soil,condition,yes that's right >But as we're primed and sensitive,it follows >That we ought not really get so,well up tight >Wild plants scattered all about by Gods almighty hand >We really must remember and try to understand >Co-existence should now be the order of the day >Not methods to exterminate what ever comes our way > >We operate vibrationally >As do the wild plants so >Where they fall and germinate >Tis where they ought to grow >So our gardens are reflecting >Our habits, and our health >The earth we wander over every day >Can be our wealth > >Knowledge from within >Is a generous enough way >To get to grips with alchemy >Plants do it every day >Sorrel means acidity >But our own blood could be >Moving perhaps down that road >That's what it means to me >Sorrel, Couch and other plants >At this time I can't recall >Provide this given knowledge >And release Chalk,yes that's all >In us Rheumatic painfulness >Sciatica and more >Are alleviated quite a bit >If you eat some cooked or raw > >We harbingers of excellence >Our preps that we apply >Some herbs we pull out of the ground >And compost or air dry >I feel Mr Steiner, must have realised >God in all his wisdom >The wild plants must have prized >For he undertook to balance >If all else fails to try >Alchemically to process >So that dear friends is why > >The land will be looked after >But we won't always see >Preferring to go out and buy our new machinery >When every so called weed is driven out >Mowed down, and lost >Our own health, could then suffer >In the ether then we're tossed >What comes up, as we vibrate >Is knowledge,its out there >And we must grasp the nettle >And offer up our prayer > >Let Nature be the boss >And just appreciate the worth >Wild Plants put there by the hand of God >Protect the earth >We don't need Lime, if sorrel's there >For it provides the chalk >Just read what Nature's saying >Wherever you now walk >The thistles,Comfrey,Shepherds Purse >Dandelions and more >Nettles all have uses >It doesnt just mean war >They provide the remedy >If we're prepared to wait >The Earth was there before we were >And will be there, when we vacate. > > >Rex Tyler > > > > > > >-- >------------------------ >visit us at Cook's Delight: >http://surf.to/cooksdelight > >from August 15, 1999 >http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk > >------------------------ > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 14 03:10:24 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA24732 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 03:10:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA16673; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 03:04:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13323 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 01:40:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from computer (whan-075.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.175]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA06194 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:09:16 +1300 Message-ID: <002601bf5e5a$30980540$aff631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: weeds Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:39:59 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3138 Dear Ian, Do you mind sharing you spreadsheet? I would be most interested in looking at what you are doing, Hope the seson is going well and you and Kate are well, Cheers Gareth -----Original Message----- From: I & K Buckingham To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, 14 January 2000 09:18 AM Subject: Re: weeds > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Deborah M Byron >To: >Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 12:00 PM >Subject: Re: weeds > > >> Dear Hugh, Guillermo, everyone-- >> >> Is there a good resource book that summarizes which weeds like acid >> versus those that like alkaline soil, so that one could do some >> on-the-spot soil diagnosis? > >Deborah > >Any good farm weed book will give you some indication of soil conditions >that plants like. >I have been collecting, on a spreadsheet soil indicators and mineral >accumulators which I am happy to e-mail to you if you would like it. You >would still need a weed manual for plant identification purposes. Just >remember that these plants are indicators only. eg thistles can be an >indication of potash deficiency or simply soil structure damage. Adding >potash would not solve the soil structure problem and vice versa. > >Regards > >Ian Buckingham >Maungatawhiri >New Zealand > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 14 03:14:40 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA24774 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 03:14:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA17275; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 03:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from 450-2.midcoast.com.au (root@kmidc69-3.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA16610 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 03:04:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-95.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.95]) by 450-2.midcoast.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA10920 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:00:24 +1100 Message-ID: <015901bf5e66$86ccb120$59431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: weeds and indicators Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:04:21 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3139 Dear Rex, This poem is wonderful -good job. When we were at a field day last year on a wonderful BD Citrus orchard, where every type of herb and "weed" grew in great fertility, Peter Proctor spoke about the "Fertility weeds", like Hugh Lovel speaks about his chickweed growing in the fertile best areas etc. When we think of the value of all these herbs to our culinary and medicinal areas, why would we call them weeds, they are really herbs, and the more diversity the better for our health, the soils and the animals. They are only weeds when they monopolise, where the balance is out, or when they are the only survivors from herbicide attack. This is possibly when weeds/herbs then can tell us that they are there for healing of the imbalance in the soils. Cheers, Cheryl Kemp. -----Original Message----- From: Cook's Delight To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, 14 January 2000 12:25 pm Subject: Re: weeds and indicators >Might I put my two penny worth into this pot please! >There is clearly a great deal of interest in wild plants or weeds >as they seem to be called,this idea really extends to sea vegetables >which are of great food value but when called seaweeds tend to not be so >attractive certainly to first time users! >My medium is as you probably all know now in poetical form so here goes! > >For a while I've watched and pondered >Why weeds appear to be >Not that important in the scheme of things >Why some can't see >That they provide such knowledge >And Esoterically >Ought to get a better hearing >Than they do, sadly > >Yes, they indicate irregularities >Types of soil,condition,yes that's right >But as we're primed and sensitive,it follows >That we ought not really get so,well up tight >Wild plants scattered all about by Gods almighty hand >We really must remember and try to understand >Co-existence should now be the order of the day >Not methods to exterminate what ever comes our way > >We operate vibrationally >As do the wild plants so >Where they fall and germinate >Tis where they ought to grow >So our gardens are reflecting >Our habits, and our health >The earth we wander over every day >Can be our wealth > >Knowledge from within >Is a generous enough way >To get to grips with alchemy >Plants do it every day >Sorrel means acidity >But our own blood could be >Moving perhaps down that road >That's what it means to me >Sorrel, Couch and other plants >At this time I can't recall >Provide this given knowledge >And release Chalk,yes that's all >In us Rheumatic painfulness >Sciatica and more >Are alleviated quite a bit >If you eat some cooked or raw > >We harbingers of excellence >Our preps that we apply >Some herbs we pull out of the ground >And compost or air dry >I feel Mr Steiner, must have realised >God in all his wisdom >The wild plants must have prized >For he undertook to balance >If all else fails to try >Alchemically to process >So that dear friends is why > >The land will be looked after >But we won't always see >Preferring to go out and buy our new machinery >When every so called weed is driven out >Mowed down, and lost >Our own health, could then suffer >In the ether then we're tossed >What comes up, as we vibrate >Is knowledge,its out there >And we must grasp the nettle >And offer up our prayer > >Let Nature be the boss >And just appreciate the worth >Wild Plants put there by the hand of God >Protect the earth >We don't need Lime, if sorrel's there >For it provides the chalk >Just read what Nature's saying >Wherever you now walk >The thistles,Comfrey,Shepherds Purse >Dandelions and more >Nettles all have uses >It doesnt just mean war >They provide the remedy >If we're prepared to wait >The Earth was there before we were >And will be there, when we vacate. > > >Rex Tyler > > > > > > >-- >------------------------ >visit us at Cook's Delight: >http://surf.to/cooksdelight > >from August 15, 1999 >http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk > >------------------------ > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 14 10:38:37 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28869 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:38:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15287; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:32:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from red1.netwurx.net (red1.netwurx.net [209.207.63.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14674 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:28:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from michaela (59-114.netwurx.net [209.207.59.114]) by red1.netwurx.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA31529 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:33:50 -0600 Message-ID: <387F4258.672A@mfai.org> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:35:52 -0600 From: Michael Fields Agricultural Institute Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Michael Fields Agricultural Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds References: <200001132216.OAA27692@megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3140 Ian, I would love a copy of your weeds spreadsheet, if you don't mind sending out another one. Thank You Therese Philipp > > Joel > > ---------- > > I have been collecting, on a spreadsheet soil indicators and mineral > > accumulators which I am happy to e-mail to you if you would like it. You > > would still need a weed manual for plant identification purposes. Just > > remember that these plants are indicators only. eg thistles can be an > > indication of potash deficiency or simply soil structure damage. Adding > > potash would not solve the soil structure problem and vice versa. > > > > Regards > > > > Ian Buckingham > > Maungatawhiri > > New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 14 11:02:07 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29539 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:02:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18230; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:56:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d08.mx.aol.com (imo-d08.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18134 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:55:50 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.50.84f1fc (7360) for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:00:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <50.84f1fc.25b0a21a@aol.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:00:26 EST Subject: Soil Tests/Analysis To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3141 All. I am not satisfied with the soil tests/analysis I get from VA Tech, the state testing lab. For example, they say to add limestone if PH is low but in my case I have high Magnesium so I need to use HIGH calcium lime which is harder to find than regular dolomite limestone. ATTRA has a list of soil testing agencies at http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/soil-lab.html Has anybody used any of these or can they recommend one that tests for conventional and bio activity, preferably in the Eastern US. By the way, IMO the ATTRA article on BD has the potential to provide initial BD education to more people than anything I have seen. Dan L From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 14 18:32:54 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA08388 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:32:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA04773; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:27:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net (sys32.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.32]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA26949 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:20:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.211.141.189] (wt-d6-189.wt.net [208.211.141.189]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA12744; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:29:29 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: lamu@pop3.wt.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <014001bf5d58$399f2720$65cb6cce@netacc.net> References: <20000111.170016.18446.5.LaQuerencia@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:33:34 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Andy Richker Subject: Re: weeds Cc: Deborah M Byron Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3142 Please excuse me if this has been already suggested but I am only now catching up on the mail on this list. I have Charles Walter's book on Weed but haven't really looked at it yet. Anybody have reliable comments on this one?? Andy R lamu@wt.net >Dear Deborah: > >"Weeds and What they Tell" E E Pfeiffer...probably available from JPI and >BDA. > >Woody >----- Original Message ----- >From: Deborah M Byron >To: >Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 4:00 PM >Subject: Re: weeds > > >> Dear Hugh, Guillermo, everyone-- >> >> Is there a good resource book that summarizes which weeds like acid >> versus those that like alkaline soil, so that one could do some >> on-the-spot soil diagnosis? >> >> Thanks, >> Deborah >> >> ________________________________________________________________ >> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >> Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. >> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 14 19:00:53 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08681 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:00:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07859; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:55:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx20.rmci.net (halcyon.rmci.net [205.162.184.63]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07771 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:53:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 13639 invoked from network); 14 Jan 2000 23:59:08 -0000 Received: from dialup-ip-206-159-124-50.lew.rmci.net (HELO dave) (206.159.124.50) by halcyon.rmci.net with SMTP; 14 Jan 2000 23:59:08 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000114160546.00744a0c@valley-internet.net> X-Sender: veggies@valley-internet.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:05:46 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: David or Deloris Subject: Re: BD master gardeners: was "weeds" In-Reply-To: <20000113.153656.21486.2.LaQuerencia@juno.com> References: <20000111.170016.18446.5.LaQuerencia@juno.com> <006601bf5e06$94eae520$da7611ce@siesta> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3143 Ian and Deborah: I too am interested in your spreadsheet on Weed and soil conditions. As we have a certified organic market garden and am a U. of Idaho Advanced Master Gardener, I have had some interesting times with our Master Gardener Program presenters. They now include organic as well as chemical information in lectures--the lectures on food and vegetables is from the organic point of view. We are making progress. The faculty told me that if I would have asked them to focus on organic ten years ago, they would have laughed me out of the room. Thanks in advance. Why don't you attach the spread sheet to a reply. Thanks, Deloris Jungert Davisson At 03:36 PM 1/13/00 -0600, you wrote: >>Any good farm weed book will give you some indication of soil >>conditions>that plants like. >>I have been collecting, on a spreadsheet soil indicators and mineral >>accumulators which I am happy to e-mail to you if you would like it. >>You>would still need a weed manual for plant identification purposes. >Just >>remember that these plants are indicators only. eg thistles can be an >>indication of potash deficiency or simply soil structure damage. >>Adding>potash would not solve the soil structure problem and vice versa. > > >Dear Ian, > > I would very much like to see your spreadsheet. The question comes >up because I am taking what is called here a Master Gardeners program >which is only beginning to include basic rudimentary organic farming >information (yes, it is quite stultifying). During each section, I sit >there imagining how to convert the whole 40 hour program into something >that would teach about living soil and food. Apparently people are >starting to request such a program but it appears someone will have to >volunteer to organize it. Obviously in this, the land of >agribiz-subsidized higher education, no one is willing to pay someone to >do such work. So I thought I would begin collecting materials for a >possible organic farming specialization and perhaps infiltrate the >organizing committee. Your work would be a welcome place to start. > > Does anyone know of a Master Gardeners program that has already >converted to organic? > >Warm regards, >Deborah >PS: if you'll be sending attachments please use this email address: >hlspentvalue@igc.org > >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 14 19:24:42 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08901 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:24:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10578; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:18:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA10531 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:18:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from siesta (p197-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.197]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA31360 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 13:23:57 +1300 Message-ID: <006f01bf5eed$feb99ae0$c58a6dcb@siesta> From: "I & K Buckingham" To: "BDnow" Subject: Off : weed spreadsheet Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 13:18:00 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3144 For those who have asked for a copy, not a problem. Am taking the opportunity to add a few bits of info onto it before sending it to the ethers. You should all have it in your folders in a couple of days. Regards Ian Buckingham Maungatawhiri New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 14 19:43:57 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA09061 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:43:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12029; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:38:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from agate.propagation.net ([63.249.211.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA11893 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:36:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.169.243.82 ([206.169.243.18]) by agate.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA29285; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:41:12 -0600 Message-ID: <387FC64D.6660@smallfarms.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:58:51 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: weeds and indicators spreadsheet Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3145 Dear Ian: May I also have a copy. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 14 19:53:19 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA09138 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:53:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12544; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:47:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12473 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:46:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from computer (whan-055.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.155]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07587 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 13:16:18 +1300 Message-ID: <002201bf5ef2$05734440$9bf631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: Off : weed spreadsheet Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 13:46:52 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3146 Cheers Looking Forward to it Gareth -----Original Message----- From: I & K Buckingham To: BDnow Date: Saturday, 15 January 2000 12:53 PM Subject: Off : weed spreadsheet >For those who have asked for a copy, not a problem. Am taking the >opportunity to add a few bits of info onto it before sending it to the >ethers. You should all have it in your folders in a couple of days. >Regards > >Ian Buckingham >Maungatawhiri >New Zealand > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 14 21:14:22 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA09720 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:14:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16931; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:08:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16854 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.156] (pm3shep2-163-73.intrepid.net [209.190.163.73]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA32334 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:12:58 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000114160546.00744a0c@valley-internet.net> References: <20000111.170016.18446.5.LaQuerencia@juno.com> <006601bf5e06$94eae520$da7611ce@siesta> <3.0.1.32.20000114160546.00744a0c@valley-internet.net> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 20:56:45 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: BD master gardeners: was "weeds" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3147 > Why don't you attach the spread sheet to a reply. > >Thanks, Deloris Jungert Davisson Dear Spud - Although it creates a lot of work for someone like IAN to hand mail so many requests (congratulations!), it's bad manners to send an attachment to the entire list. What we can do is publish the weed spreadsheet on BD Now! or make it a download there, if IAN is interested in doing that. At 4:05 PM -0800 Deloris wrote: > We are making progress. The faculty told me that >if I would have asked them to focus on organic ten years ago, they would >have laughed me out of the room. Well, if things get too somber there any time soon, you might try asking them to focus on biodynamics! :-) -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 14 21:19:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA09779 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:19:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17168; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:13:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16968 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:09:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.156] (pm3shep2-163-73.intrepid.net [209.190.163.73]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA32562 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:14:22 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <50.84f1fc.25b0a21a@aol.com> References: <50.84f1fc.25b0a21a@aol.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:18:28 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Soil Tests/Analysis Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3148 >By the way, IMO the ATTRA article on BD has the potential to provide initial >BD education to more people than anything I have seen. Thanks for bringing this up again, Dan. My earlier analogy was unfortunately obscure and it did set many people off. My intention was not so much to demonstrate that the ATTRA article was a poor representation of the biodynamic movement, but rather to draw attention to how BD Now! was NOT mentioned on the Demeter page, but the ATTRA pamphlet was. My intention was to ponder what the DEMETER standards for setting up links if BD Now! was ommitted and the ATTRA article included. Is my sense of confusion understandable? Since then, it has been brought to my attention that ATTRA is NOT a Federal Agency, but rather an Agency that receives 100% of its funding from the Federal Government. Someone asked what was wrong with that. While I have a hard time understanding how someone who reads this list regularly could hold the world view of biodynamics and the world view of the Federal government in mind at the same time, I think I might explain even to their understanding that when I think of Federal Government and sustainable ag I think of sewer sludge, irradiation and genetic engineering - - among many other things. I apologize for any sleights, real or imagined, that I may have made to Steve Diver and his friends. Steve is hard working and altruistic and has put a lot of useful information within arms reach of all of us. I have a bundle of ATTRA pubs on my desk right now that he sent out to me recently and I'm glad that they are there - - only a toll-free call away. As far as the influence of the ATTRA article, well, for me, I mostly meet biodynamic people who were first moved to stir preps by SECRETS of the SOILS. -Allan Balliett -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 14 21:28:56 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA09840 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:28:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17877; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:22:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17651 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:20:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.107] (du-148-233-78-207.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOC000AQUCNJ9@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 20:17:15 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 20:19:27 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: sea salt, was..... In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id VAA17653 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3149 Dear Allan, please read on. >Dear Guillermo - > >I gave Sally a cup of your salt today. To be frank: I think she does >not like salt that is so white. I think it makes her suspicious. (One >of her favorite salts (she had a cask of salts) was deep red...sun >dried surf splash from Hawaii. Maura, however, felt that Sally really >liked your salt. Although a gift to her, she traded me 2lbs of grass >sourced raw butter for 1cup of your salt!! So, you can see how >treasured it is here!! I belive, though not sure, that the color in the "gourmet" or "natural" salts is in part a "contamination" by the soils forming the "evaporation and crystalization pools", In the case of Colima, this people use black food grade plastic as an underliner for the pools and the water comes, not from the lagoon itself, but from a sort of underground sea water springs. This facts alone could provide an explanation for the little color in the Colima salt. If posible,please have her comment. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:09:08 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19740 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:09:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22593; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:02:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21926 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 22:35:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (cust142.nrvmax5.tor1.netrover.com [205.209.27.142]) by river.netrover.com (8.9.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA19547 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 22:41:12 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-From: villager@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: From: "manfred palmer" To: "bdnow" Subject: BDevent,ontario Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 22:43:25 -0500 Message-ID: <01bf5f0a$adca6f20$8e1bd1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF5EE0.C4F46720" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3150 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF5EE0.C4F46720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi folks: just thought i'd plug our annual event again in case any of = you are travelling to Ontario at the end of = January....................manfred palmer Sunday Biodynamic Seminar January 30, 2000 - from 8:30 a.m. -4:00 p.m. 8:30 Registration at the Main Level of the Guelph University Centre 9 - 12 noon: Hugh Williams: The orchard in the farm. Advanced workshop = for people with some knowledge of BD or fruit trees. Hugh will talk about how the care of the = orchard, including pest and disease management, is achieved by seeing it as an organ of the = whole farm. 12 noon -1 p.m. Lunch. Bring your own bag or go to the U.C Cafe' for the = organic lunch I p.m 4pm. Panel discussion, question and answer period about "What are = the goals of plant and animal breeding?"=20 Cost: $ 25.00 For further details and preregistration for this full day seminar, = please call Cory Eichman (519) 369 -3567 [website of WWW.CERTIFIED ORGANIC FOOD http://www.gks.com/OrgConf/index.html Organic Agriculture Conference University Centre - University of Guelph January 27 -30, 2000 "Growing the Organic Market" The 19th annual Organic Agriculture Conference in Guelph offers a one = and a half day Introduction Course into Ecological Agriculture on = Thursday and Friday, January 27-28. Cost is $125,call OATI (800)668-6284 = for seminar information. Friday afternoon offers 3 workshops on integrated systems to soil = fertility, Mechanical weed control in the context of diversity and = Maximizing quality at harvest. Evening:The organic Buffet and the Guelph = Public Forum. Saturday offers 20 workshops with 5 themes: Organic Crop Production and = Processing, Animal Husbandry, Marketing, Compost and Plant Diseases, = Gardening, CSA, greenhouses, BD orchard, hemp, lnternational = development, Open Pollinated Corn and Biotechnology. Sunday offers = seminars about land stewardship, dairy goats, how to start into organic = agriculture, oft season vegetables, CSA Marketing, Agroforestry and = Permaculture, Group networking and planning, and the BD Program (see below).=20 For more information call the "Conference Response Line" at (519) = 824-4120, ext 2558 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF5EE0.C4F46720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi folks: just thought i'd plug our annual event again in case any = of you=20 are travelling to Ontario at the end of = January....................manfred=20 palmer
 
Sunday Biodynamic Seminar
January 30, 2000 - from 8:30 a.m. = -4:00=20 p.m.
8:30 Registration at the Main Level of the Guelph University = Centre
9=20 - 12 noon: Hugh Williams: The orchard in the farm. Advanced workshop for = people=20 with some
knowledge of BD or fruit trees. Hugh will talk about how = the care=20 of the orchard, including pest
and disease management, is achieved by = seeing=20 it as an organ of the whole farm.
12 noon -1 p.m. Lunch. Bring your = own bag=20 or go to the U.C Cafe' for the organic lunch
I p.m  4pm. Panel=20 discussion, question and answer period about "What are the goals of = plant
and animal breeding?"  
Cost: $ 25.00
For further details and preregistration for this full day seminar, = please=20 call Cory Eichman (519) 369 -3567
 
 
[website of WWW.CERTIFIED ORGANIC = FOOD
http://www.gks.com/OrgConf= /index.html
 
Organic Agriculture Conference
University Centre - University of Guelph
 
January 27 -30, 2000
"Growing the Organic = Market"
The 19th=20 annual Organic Agriculture Conference in Guelph offers a one and a half = day=20 Introduction Course into Ecological Agriculture on Thursday and Friday, = January=20 27-28. Cost is $125,call OATI (800)668-6284 for seminar = information.
Friday=20 afternoon offers 3 workshops on integrated systems to soil fertility, = Mechanical=20 weed control in the context of diversity and Maximizing quality at = harvest.=20 Evening:The organic Buffet and the Guelph Public Forum.
Saturday = offers 20=20 workshops with 5 themes: Organic Crop Production and Processing, Animal=20 Husbandry, Marketing, Compost and Plant Diseases, Gardening, CSA, = greenhouses,=20 BD orchard, hemp, lnternational development, Open Pollinated Corn and=20 Biotechnology. Sunday offers seminars about land stewardship, dairy = goats, how=20 to start into organic agriculture, oft season vegetables, CSA Marketing, = Agroforestry and Permaculture, Group networking and planning, and the BD = Program
(see below). 
For more information call the "Conference Response Line" = at (519)=20 824-4120, ext 2558
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF5EE0.C4F46720-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:09:19 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19755 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:09:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22716; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:03:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23781 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from dana (user-2ivfhav.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.197.95]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA21144 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:37:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00de01bf5e62$35685860$5fc5f7a5@dana> From: "Dana & Lance Howard" To: References: Subject: broadcasting and potentizing preps Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 23:37:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3151 Going back to the discussion of BD in the future and the prospect of accelerating the earth healing, I'm interested in the question of scale. What about the farm organism or individuality? How will large scale treatment of the land compare? How large can an "organism" be? Will the "organisms" individualize themselves under broadcast treatment, or might they be homogenized to some extent? Any thoughts? Lance Howard From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:09:48 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19777 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:09:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22812; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:03:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d10.mx (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23818 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:32:21 -0500 (EST) From: Andyschad@aol.com Received: from Andyschad@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.b2.635963 (4453) for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:37:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:37:04 EST Subject: Re: weeds To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 47 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3152 Hi Ian Can I get a copy of your weeds spreadsheet too please? thanks Andreas From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:10:11 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19787 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:10:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22906; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:04:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA24152 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:46:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.107] (du-148-233-78-207.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOD00CAG1FBVO@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 22:50:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 22:52:24 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: peppering animals, many questions. In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id XAA24153 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3153 The time has come !, I am getting ready for this weekend do the burning of the animal pests we are suffering here (skunk, armadillo, moles, opposum and mice). Recently a whole family of cats moved into my roofs and the mice have gone away. I am afraid this cats visit will not last long, my retrievers will not let that happen permanently. So, I was wondering if I should keep the ashes for latter, for when the mice return ? or if I should apply the peppers right away ?. I assume that the mortar grinding, is a sort of potensization (sp ?) and that I should apply the peppers as soon as I finish the 1 hour mortar grinding. am I correct ?, so if I save the ashes, can I do the potensization when I get ready for its use ? How should I store the ashes ? How are the peppers applied ?, the amount of ash is not going to be much and since I will do the burning using a propane torch (as Jim suggested to have a complete, non carbonized, combustion), there is not going to be wood ashes to make more bulk. Can I spray it with water ? if so should I stir this also for an hour?, instead of doing the mortar thing ? or should I use wood , not as fuel but in order to have more ashes to sprinkle directly ? if so, how much wood for how much skins ?. I will be gratefull for your prompt reply. Many thanks Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:10:51 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19802 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:10:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23042; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:04:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from agate.propagation.net ([63.249.211.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA24303 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.169.243.82 ([206.169.243.18]) by agate.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA28230; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 22:55:38 -0600 Message-ID: <388001ED.1E79@smallfarms.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:13:15 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: sea salt, was..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3154 Hi Allan and Guillermo, Allan, the Hawaii salt Sally has is called alae salt. Usually, the salt is collected from drying ponds close to the ocean and later mixed with a selected red clay, the alae, to give it more of a "flavor" and the red cast. Tell her not to be concerned with the white of Guillermo's salt...It's just purer. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com > >I gave Sally a cup of your salt today. To be frank: I think she does > >not like salt that is so white. I think it makes her suspicious. (One > >of her favorite salts (she had a cask of salts) was deep red...sun > >dried surf splash from Hawaii. Maura, however, felt that Sally really > >liked your salt. Although a gift to her, she traded me 2lbs of grass > >sourced raw butter for 1cup of your salt!! So, you can see how > >treasured it is here!! > > I belive, though not sure, that the color in the "gourmet" or "natural" salts is in part a "contamination" by the soils forming the "evaporation and crystalization pools", In the case of Colima, this people use black food grade plastic as an underliner for the pools and the water comes, not from the lagoon itself, but from a sort of underground sea water springs. This facts alone could provide an explanation for the little color in the Colima salt. > > If posible,please have her comment. > > Regards > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:11:28 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19833 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:11:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23202; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:05:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.41]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA25626 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 00:07:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.107] (du-148-233-78-207.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOD00B672FN8R@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:11:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:13:33 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Mechanical cultivators In-reply-to: <01bf5e4c$8515ff40$1f55bace@default> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id AAA25628 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3155 >Deidre : I have used a 10 hp bcs. for years in my csa. They claim to have >about double the rotation speed of most other tillers..... like, this is >desirable? >If you want nice-looking fluff, it will do it. >However, i've seen over the years that the effects of the >churning,inverting/mixing of the upper strata of soil is a damaging thing to >the structure and microlife. >Also, any tiller will create a hardpan eventually if not sooner, as it >fairly grinds away to a uniform depth, smearing the bottom and sides in its >motion. >Since i can't finance a spader machine at this time, i still do use the >tiller, but not very deep,and mainly for a seed bed, and usually following a >pass with a springtine cultivator, tractor drawn. >There are tractor mounted spaders and walkbehind spaders. >A great source for these can be found at http://www.approtecag.com/ >Their great feature is that they do not invert the layers as tillers do, >amongst other things. [you can read their description in more detail at the >web site] If you have a choice to start out this way, in my and many bd >practitioners' opinion, it's the way to go. You'll find neighbors keen to >have you "do a few passes" for them. >Hope this helps. As soon as i get mine, i'll have a bcs for sale! [though >,as tillers go, they are great, especially with the attachments] >Hope this helps., ............manfred palmer Dear Manfred: Eugene Canales from Ferrari said that you can attach a small spader to the BCS' pto, is this correct ?, if so why do you want to sell your BCS ?. Do you know how much does a spader for the BCS costs? If you are serious about selling, please also send me privately the amount you are asking for the tractor and implements, I am only interested in the sikle bar (sp) and the chipper though. This type of machines are only avail new here and they go for about twice as much than in the US. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:12:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19846 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:12:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23336; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:06:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net (spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net [207.108.48.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA25892 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 00:16:29 -0500 (EST) From: d2allen@uswest.net Received: (qmail 29767 invoked by alias); 15 Jan 2000 05:21:48 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-bdnow@envirolink.org@fixme Received: (qmail 29762 invoked by uid 0); 15 Jan 2000 05:21:47 -0000 Received: from dialupk124.uswest.net.spkn.uswest.net (HELO pop.spkn.uswest.net) (63.224.211.124) by spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net with SMTP; 15 Jan 2000 05:21:47 -0000 Message-ID: <38800173.C4B66D1E@pop.spkn.uswest.net> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:11:15 -0800 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {U S WEST.net} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Off : weed spreadsheet References: <006f01bf5eed$feb99ae0$c58a6dcb@siesta> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3156 Please cc the weed spread sheet. Many more thanks, Deidre Spokane, WA I & K Buckingham wrote: > For those who have asked for a copy, not a problem. Am taking the > opportunity to add a few bits of info onto it before sending it to the > ethers. You should all have it in your folders in a couple of days. > Regards > > Ian Buckingham > Maungatawhiri > New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:12:26 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19871 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:12:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23412; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:06:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA14129 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 07:56:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.105] (pm3shep2-163-105.intrepid.net [209.190.163.105]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA03793 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 08:01:34 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 08:02:12 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Hog-erators in the food garden Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3157 I have to admit that I am still way behind in getting the garden ready for FALL, let alone for SPRING... I've still got some radishes in the ground, and, in fact some carrots, and theres probably 30 bed feet of flea beetle feeding kholrabi frozen out there this morning. (Flea beetles overwinter in the roots of cabbage-related plants.) I'm picking up a couple of feeder pigs on MOnday. I've very much like to fence off a few of the annual crop beds of the garden at a time and let the hogs work on them for a few days, in the Joel Salatin-style. However, I have always heard that hog manure or compost from it should never come in contact with human food or the soil it is grown in. What say, my friends? Do these concerns about food safety really apply to a couple of organically organically raised small pigs? Would I error on the side of caution if I keep the hogs out of the garden, even for this relatively short duration? (And, no no no, I don't want to scoop up after them. ) Or is this continual drive for multi-functional farm effeciency making me into my own enemy? Your comments/experiences appreciated. Thanks -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:13:00 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19894 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:13:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23536; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:07:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA14134 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 07:56:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.105] (pm3shep2-163-105.intrepid.net [209.190.163.105]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA03803 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 08:01:40 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 08:05:13 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: sea salt, was..... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3158 >Dear Allan, please read on. > > >>Dear Guillermo - >> >>I gave Sally a cup of your salt today. To be frank: I think she does >>not like salt that is so white. I think it makes her suspicious. (One >>of her favorite salts (she had a cask of salts) was deep red...sun >>dried surf splash from Hawaii. Maura, however, felt that Sally really >>liked your salt. Although a gift to her, she traded me 2lbs of grass >>sourced raw butter for 1cup of your salt!! So, you can see how >>treasured it is here!! > >I belive, though not sure, that the color in the "gourmet" or >"natural" salts is in part a "contamination" by the soils forming >the "evaporation and crystalization pools", In the case of Colima, >this people use black food grade plastic as an underliner for the >pools and the water comes, not from the lagoon itself, but from a >sort of underground sea water springs. This facts alone could >provide an explanation for the little color in the Colima salt. > >If posible,please have her comment. > >Regards > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > I'll ask Sally if she'd like to comment on white salt, etc. I know she was using salt that is collected totally from ocean 'spray,' so I question the 'evaporation pool' theory. (Is it possible that the bed of the ocean contributes to the color?) My assumption is that 'the assumption' is that white salt has been processed in some fashion. Here, we prefer LIMA salt, which we learned about from Kushi House, however, I understand that macros are now gravitating to the 'darker' salts. I was at an ACRES conference in Lancaster PA a few years back when Penn State 'cops' removed a (real) REAL SALT salesman from the tradeshow because they found his claims to be unfounded. Unfortunately, I don't know what he was claiming. :-) -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:13:20 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19906 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:13:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23601; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15860 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 08:45:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-134.s134.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.134] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 129Tb7-00026X-00; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 08:50:33 -0500 Message-ID: <38807B7D.8A61D77D@erols.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 08:51:57 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: sea salt, was..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3159 List folks: I bought quite a bit of that BD grass-fed beef Allan was selling - thanks! Allan. Fixed a couple porterhouses last night; best beef I ever had, and the most tender! (And Guillermo's salt was divine - compared it to Morton's. Oh, what a difference! Morton's tasted like cardboard. Guillermo's salt had life.) Y'all go and get some of that beef, now! "I burn up the food in my belly. I burn up the wood in my stove." (Lew Welch) Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:13:45 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19915 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:13:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23698; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:07:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus-znb1.bright.net [205.212.123.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17953 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 09:46:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from 209.143.11.12 (hils-ras1-1-cs-9.dial.bright.net [209.143.11.12]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id JAA16278 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 09:52:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38808859.380D@bright.net> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 09:46:47 -0500 From: Marilyn Hiestand Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Workshop References: <50.84f1fc.25b0a21a@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3160 I wanted to let the group know of an upcoming daylong workshop on alternative production practices being put on by Ohio Ecological Food and Farm Association and Wilmington College on Feb. 5. Gene Logsdon, Rex Spray, and Charlie Eselgroth will be presenting. These are organic growers. I would be glad to forward the flyer by email to anybody who might be interested.Cost is $30 with lunch provided. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:14:29 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19934 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:14:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23827; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:08:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21194 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:07:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.202.131]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Sat, 15 Jan 2000 16:12:18 +0000 Message-ID: <000201bf5f73$8ef28740$83ca2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: <20000111.170016.18446.5.LaQuerencia@juno.com> <006601bf5e06$94eae520$da7611ce@siesta> Subject: Re: weeds Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 15:58:05 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3161 Dear Ian - May I join the rapidly lengthening list of people who would like a copy of your weeds spreadsheet ? Would it save you a great deal of work if Allan could put it up, either on BDNow! or his website ? Thanls, Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:16:15 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19968 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:16:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24345; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:10:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24304 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:15:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.197] (pm3shep4-163-197.intrepid.net [209.190.163.197]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA00049; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:20:19 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:18:57 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Sally Fallon's "Weston A. Price Foundation" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id VAA24306 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3162 Here is a "press release" for the Weston A. Price Foundation: We are pleased to announce the establishment of The Weston A. Price Foundation, a nonprofit, tax-exempt charity dedicated to the research of nutrition pioneer Dr. Weston Price, whose studies of isolated nonindustrialized peoples established the parameters of human health and determined the optimum characteristics of human diets. Dr. Price's research demonstrated that humans achieve perfect physical form and perfect health generation after generation only when they consume nutrient-dense whole foods and the vital fat-soluble activators found exclusively in animal fats. The Foundationís goal is the return of nutrient-dense foods to the American diet through education, research and activism. Its board and membership support accurate nutrition instruction, organic and biodynamic farming, pasture feeding of livestock, community supported farms, honest and informative labeling, prepared parenting and nurturing therapies. Specific goals include establishment of universal access to clean, certified raw milk and a ban on the use of soy formula for infants. Local chapters will serve to help consumers find locally grown organic and biodynamic produce as well as pasture-fed livestock and dairy products. These groups will also work to educate students, consumers and legislators throughout the country about the importance of nutrient-dense whole foods for optimum human health. The Foundation seeks to establish a laboratory to test nutrient content of foods, particularly butter produced under various conditions; to conduct research into the "X" Factor, discovered by Dr. Price; and to determine the effects of traditional preparation methods on nutrient content and availability in whole foods. The board and membership of the Weston A. Price Foundation stand united in the belief that modern technology should be harnessed as a servant to the wise and nurturing traditions of our ancestors rather than used as a force destructive to the environment and human health; and that science and knowledge can validate those traditions. The Foundationís quarterly magazine, Wise Traditions in Food, Farming and the Healing Arts, is dedicated to exploring the scientific validation of dietary, agricultural and medical traditions throughout the world. It features illuminating and thought-provoking articles on current scientific research; human diets; nontoxic agriculture; and holistic therapies. The journal also serves as a source for foods that have been conscientiously grown and processed. The first annual conference of the Weston A. Price Foundation is scheduled for April 28-29 in the Washington, DC area. It will feature Tom Cowan, MD, Mary Enig, PhD, Edie Griffiths and Sally Fallon. For membership, chapter and conference information contact: The Weston A. Price Foundation PMB 106-380, 4200 Wisconsin Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20016 (202) 333-HEAL website: www.WestonAPrice.org -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:16:52 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20004 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:16:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24544; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:10:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.41]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA25272 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:42:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.155] (du-148-233-78-155.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOE000M1QDPV5@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 20:46:41 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 20:48:24 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Comments on Salt? In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: Allan Balliett Cc: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id VAA25273 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3163 >Dear BD Now!er- > >I've asked Sally Fallon, author of 'Nourishing Traditions,' to >comment on how to determine the quality of sea salt. She has agreed >to do this, and to answer any other questions anyone may have in >regards to traditional nutrition, whole foods or keeping profits down >on the farm. In return, I have (and without any relevant >considerations otherwise) offered to post the press release for her >new non-profit "The Weston A. Price Foundation," a continuation of >her work with Price-Pottenger. > >Sally says: > >Re salt: My understanding is that the light grey color of the Celtic sea >salt is a sign that it contains many trace minerals. It may also be due to >the fact that the vats in which it is dry are clay-lined--which of course >would also contribute minerals. When you refine salt and the minerals are >removed, it becomes white. > >I would suggest that the Colima people have their salt analyzed for trace >minerals. >From a nutriological stand point, which trace minerals are important to consider as important factors associated with the consumption of salt itself (Hugh mentioned something about one trace mineral or salt (not NaCl) balancing out the effects of the ionized Na in refined NaCl) and the nutritional considerations of salt as a nutrient carrier (ie. iodine). In this fashion, please ask, in her opinion, what trace mineral should I analyze in the salt ? What she is saying above IMO is quite obvious, but not the specific human nutrition associated with salt consumption, which she is not addressing at this point. Could you please kindly ask her to provide references for the statements she may give us. I think her offer to participate will be a rich opportunity to discuss her statements about "traditional nutrition" in the light of both Biodynamic-Anthroposophic and conventional nutriology. Please thank her on my behalf for her willigness. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:17:32 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20041 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24738; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:11:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA28802 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:03:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [210.55.33.152] by mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <20000116040750.IAIT3352759.mta4-rme@[210.55.33.152]> for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:07:50 +1300 User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:05:38 +1300 Subject: Re: weeds From: Daniel Bridler To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00ee01bf5e2f$f31b7500$59431ccb@cherylke> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3164 -- > From: "Cheryl Kemp" > Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:22:43 +1100 > To: > Subject: Re: weeds > > Dear Ian, yes I would love a copy too. I thought thistles were copper > deficiency. I have thistles growing in an old fire area, with lots of > potash! > Good to hear from you again, > Cheryl Kemp > Education & News Leaf Editor > Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Assoc. > of Australia Inc. > P.O Box 54, Bellingen. 2454. (Office) > 627 Tyringham Rd, Dorrigo Nth. 2453 (Home) > Phone; + 02 66 575306 Fax 02 66 575322 > email: bio@midcoast.com.au Cheryl, your comment about thistle and copper reminded me of John Pearce's farm on the Kaipara Peninsula. Thistle just about covered the land, when he took over and he cleared it by using a pepper for a few years. He then had copper deficiency problems with his calves. He put that down to the fact that his soil is naturally poor in copper and the thistle was "trying" to redress the imbalance. His remedy (successful) was then to apply a liquid brew of thistle. The irony being that to find enough thistle, he had to go to the neighbors farm: his "pepper" had worked so well , that he had practically no thistles left on his place! Greetings Daniel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:18:01 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20050 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:18:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24912; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:12:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.ihug.co.nz (tk1.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA06870 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 02:55:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from siesta (p57-max17.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.17.119.57]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id VAA15044 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:01:05 +1300 Message-ID: <002001bf5ff7$038e9520$397711ce@siesta> From: "I & K Buckingham" To: "BDnow" Subject: Off: weed spreadsheet Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:55:09 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3165 Greetings By now those who requested a copy should have it zipping through the ethers. It is in excel version 5 format. If it is not able to be opened or need some other format please let me know at Siesta@ihug.co.nz and we can work out a better system privately. Regards Ian Buckingham Maungatawhiri New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:18:37 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20060 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:18:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25074; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:12:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from fep3-orange.clear.net.nz (fep3-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA08652 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 04:21:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (b001-m006-p039.acld.clear.net.nz [203.97.54.167]) by fep3-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.4) with SMTP id WAA19129; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:26:41 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <001d01bf6003$db37d160$a73661cb@oemcomputer> From: "Peter Cotterill" To: "bdnow" Subject: copper fields Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:24:16 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF6070.6C819AE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3166 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF6070.6C819AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List,=20 I would like to find out more about the copper field effects in = gardening. I use copper wire in my garden to deter snails and slugs. It definitely = keeps them at bay. Three or more turns of a bare copper wire on the = ground around your cabbage patch and no snails or slugs will enter = there. It works prefectly well for me yet not for others. Maybe the = desired effect has something to do with the BD preps or is it something = to do with the practitioner or both. There must be other successful methods like the above. In a book called = 'The Esoteric Crystal' it describes the use of a copper wire shaped in a = circle to form a OOC (open oscillating circuit). A OOC is a copper wire = bend in a circle with the ends overlapping but not touching. This is = used with or without a quartz crystal to restore health, increase yield = and to ward off insects. Is this a genuine method? Are OOC devices of = much use? It also states that the OOC would increase the quartz = crystal's energy field when it is placed around it. A alpha or delta = quartz crystal with the OOC is placing at the tree's neutral zone. The = position of the neutral zone or doorway is determined by radiothesia or = from some other method. It also warns to do a little at a time because = the effect could be overdone and kill your plants. I have also read = about aerial gardening somewhere but don't record the details. Never stop learning, Peter.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF6070.6C819AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear List,

I would like to find out more about the copper field effects in=20 gardening.

I use copper wire in my garden to deter snails and slugs. It = definitely keeps=20 them at bay. Three or more turns of a bare copper wire on the ground = around your=20 cabbage patch and no snails or slugs will enter there. It works = prefectly well=20 for me yet not for others. Maybe the desired effect has something to do = with the=20 BD preps or is it something to do with the practitioner or both.

There must be other successful methods like the above. In a book = called 'The=20 Esoteric Crystal' it describes the use of a copper wire shaped in a = circle to=20 form a OOC (open oscillating circuit). A OOC is a copper wire bend in a = circle=20 with the ends overlapping but not touching. This is used with or without = a=20 quartz crystal to restore health, increase yield and to ward off = insects. Is=20 this a genuine method? Are OOC devices of much use?  It also states = that=20 the OOC would increase the quartz crystal's energy field when it is = placed=20 around it. A alpha or delta quartz crystal with the OOC is placing at = the tree's=20 neutral zone. The position of the neutral zone or doorway is determined = by=20 radiothesia or from some other method. It also warns to do a little at a = time=20 because the effect could be overdone and kill your plants. I have also = read=20 about aerial gardening somewhere but don't record the details.

Never stop learning,

Peter.

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF6070.6C819AE0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:19:26 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20073 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:19:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25298; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:13:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu10.smtp.email.msn.com [207.46.181.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA20069 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:50:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from micron - 63.17.183.68 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:55:03 -0800 Message-ID: <001001bf6064$24b808e0$44b7113f@micron> From: "Wells" To: References: <002201bf5ef2$05734440$9bf631ca@computer> Subject: Re: Off : weed spreadsheet Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:56:20 -0800 Organization: Microsoft Corporation X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3167 I'd like a copy unless BDNow is putting it out--- Wells ----- Original Message ----- From: Gareth and Yvonne Bodle To: Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 4:46 PM Subject: Re: Off : weed spreadsheet > Cheers > Looking Forward to it > Gareth > -----Original Message----- > From: I & K Buckingham > To: BDnow > Date: Saturday, 15 January 2000 12:53 PM > Subject: Off : weed spreadsheet > > > >For those who have asked for a copy, not a problem. Am taking the > >opportunity to add a few bits of info onto it before sending it to the > >ethers. You should all have it in your folders in a couple of days. > >Regards > > > >Ian Buckingham > >Maungatawhiri > >New Zealand > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:20:08 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20090 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:20:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25509; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:14:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07023 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:48:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.169] (pm3shep2-163-83.intrepid.net [209.190.163.83]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA08452 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:53:30 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:51:14 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Comments on Salt? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3168 From Sally Fallon (in response to Guillermo's question about which trace minerals to test for) I think the salt should be tested for all trace minerals. The beautry of the trace mineral profile in unrefined sea salt is that it gives us all the trace minerals that we have evolved with, and in the proportions of sea water, which is what has provided trace minerals since the dawn of time. Sally -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:20:34 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20121 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:20:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25689; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:14:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19209 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 23:31:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([210.55.161.127]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000117044203.SFAQ21196.mta2-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:42:03 +1300 Message-ID: <38829CB8.5CA8@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:38:16 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNOW Subject: weed chart Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3169 Thanks Ian Can we deduct from the chart that as nutrient accumulators these weeds would actually grow best where the soil is deficient in these elements? I wish to grow a few of these weeds. cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:21:14 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20175 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:21:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25875; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:15:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ecpport2.midcoast.com.au (ecpport2.ecopost.com.au [203.28.64.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA29730 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 04:11:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from kwi (kmidc65-66.ecopost.com.au [203.28.65.66]) by ecpport2.midcoast.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA01894 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:16:22 +1100 Message-ID: <000001bf60cb$601cf000$42411ccb@kwi> From: "D & S Chamberlain" To: "BDNOW" Subject: Off: A good read Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:01:53 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3170 I have been reading "Naked Ape to Super Species" by David Suzuki & Holly Dressel. Many of the discussions and threads on BDNOW over the last 12 months are well covered, I recommend it as a good read and an excellent compilation of the planets woes. David Chamberlain From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:21:48 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20197 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:21:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26080; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:15:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA06920 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 07:19:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.165] (pm3shep4-163-162.intrepid.net [209.190.163.162]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA23858 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 07:24:27 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 07:22:16 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Bio-Dynamic Meeting and Seminar At C-Dar House Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id HAA06921 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3171 World Forest Foundation P.O. BOX 3818 Garibaldi Highlands B.C. Canada VON 1TO Phone: (604) 898-5511 Fax (604) 898-1512 E-Mail: Ferdy@direct.ca Sunday, January 16, 2000 Bio-Dynamic Meeting and Seminar At C-Dar House Paradise Valley Brackendale, BC Saturday, February 5th, 2000 12:00 Lunch 1:30 ñ 3:00 Welcome by Ferdinand Vondruska & Presentation: Bio-Dynamic Work at C-Dar House 3:00 ñ 3:30 Coffee break 3:30 ñ 5:30 Working together, a Social activity Lead by Anna von Druska 6:00 Supper 8:00 10:00 Evening Presentation by Robert Galagher (of C-Dar House) & Marianne De Jong (On Line Farm, Courtenay) The Josephie Porter Insitute of applied Bio-Dynamics (Woolwine, USA) Sunday, February 6th, 2000 8:00 Breakfast 9:00 ñ 9:30 The components of the Bio-Dynamic Barrel Compost for the treatment of Composts and fields Introduced by Ferdinand Vondruska 10:00 ñ 11:00 Barrel Compost making 11:00 ñ 12:00 Plenum 12:30 Lunch Departure at 2:00PM As this is a comprehensive seminar and based on the social activities of Saturday February 5th, there is no admission to join on Sunday, February 6th. Cost $ 55:00 (all inclusive) Bunk-bed and four meals. Payable to: C-Dar World Forest Foundation Limit: 12 participants on a firs-come first-served basis (provided you need accommodation at C-Dar House) by phoning: 250-748-4505 or by email to: Lampson Lawrence  HYPERLINK "mailto:lawrence@pacificcoast.net" lawrence@pacificcoast.net not later than February 1st, 2000. Participants who are prepared to spend the night at a nearby Motel/Hotel (cost approx. $55.-- - $80.--) may join on Saturday morning and do not fall within the first-come first-served limitations but are asked to phone 250-748-4505. Late registration: $ 70.-- -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:22:34 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20225 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:22:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26290; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:16:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28253 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:23:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip084.computer.net [140.186.252.84]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA07062 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:28:45 -0500 (EST) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:30:00 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: January 16, 2000 - January 22, 2000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id JAA28254 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3172 Calendar of the Soul [January 16, 2000 - January 22, 2000] Forty-second Week (January 19-25) In this the shrouding gloom of winter The soul feels ardently impelled To manifest its innate strength, To guide itself to realms of darkness, Anticipating thus Through warmth of heart the sense-world's revelation. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Es ist in diesem Winterdunkel Die Offenbarung eigner Kraft Der Seele starker Trieb, In Finsternisse sie zu lenken Und ahnend vorzufühlen Durch Herzenswärme Sinnesoffenbarung. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-2000 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+42 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:23:43 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20255 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:23:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26647; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:17:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net (spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net [207.108.48.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24255 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:35:00 -0500 (EST) From: d2allen@uswest.net Received: (qmail 9812 invoked by alias); 18 Jan 2000 02:40:21 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-bdnow@envirolink.org@fixme Received: (qmail 9777 invoked by uid 0); 18 Jan 2000 02:40:19 -0000 Received: from dialupk161.uswest.net.spkn.uswest.net (HELO pop.spkn.uswest.net) (63.224.211.161) by spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net with SMTP; 18 Jan 2000 02:40:19 -0000 Message-ID: <3883D003.13461960@pop.spkn.uswest.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:29:23 -0800 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {U S WEST.net} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: bdnow messages have stopped References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3173 Hi Allan, I was wondering why the BDNOW discussion has suddenly come to a halt. I haven't gotten any thiing since last friday. This seems odd, so I thought I'd bring it up. Perhaps people are taking a break? Allan Balliett wrote: > Thanks to Bruce B for his work on Hugh's RECOMMENDATIONS. They are now > available at the JPI pages http://www.igg.com/bdnow/jpi > > I thought you might find this of interest. -Allan > > A Look Ahead to the Weather for the Year 2000 > While all of the information is not yet available to provide a thorough > assessment of what the weather holds in store for us > in 2000, a preliminary look at such information that is on hand suggests > another very difficult year for agriculture. One of > the major tools I use is to record carefully the weather throughout each > day of the twelve days of Christmas. This period > provides a microcosmic, or perhaps more accurately, a > "micro-meteorological" picture of the ensuing twelve months. > Since I am writing this in early December, I am hesitant to give more than > a tentative prediction for the year 2000. It does, > however, appear that the present pattern, which tends to be very much on > the warm dry side, will continue through the > end of March. April could be among the wettest we have experienced for some > time. In late May, we will begin a lengthy > period of cold and dry weather. July will bring only modest moisture > relief, while August will once again be a very wet > month, suggesting that at least in our part of the country, one could > expect a very active and early hurricane season. > September promises an early, dry and cool fall. October, November and > December will see more of the same, with an > early winter, mostly cold and dry, an almost sure bet. With the one lunar > and two solar eclipses during the month of July, > the year beginning and ending with lunar eclipses on January 20 and > December 25, it is likely to be a very unsettled year > weather-wise. If the remaining information supports that which is currently > available, one could almost speculate that we > could experience another "year without a summer" such as followed the > eruption of Krakatoa in the last century. We will > examine this possibility more closely in this column for the next issue > after additional data is available. If this should be > the case, biodynamic practitioners need to be prepared to increase their > use of the biodynamic preparations #501 and #507, > in particular. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:24:14 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20268 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:24:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26831; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:18:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA22558 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:38:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-69.s69.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.69] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12AYuo-0006Om-00; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:43:23 -0500 Message-ID: <38846E4F.A7CA8CA1@erols.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:44:47 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds References: <387B600A.ED5DAEC1@erols.com> <387BDAD4.5FC4@globalnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3174 Rex: Thanks for your offer to help with my thistle problem - and for your excellent poems. As a poet my/self, I especially appreciate your gift with words! Once the thistle comes up again - a bit cold right now for that!; 17 degrees in Loudoun County, Va. this morning - I'll see if I can identify it, and get back to you. Thanks again - Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:24:40 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20278 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:24:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26950; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:18:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28186 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:47:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip023.computer.net [140.186.252.23]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA13771 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:52:32 -0500 (EST) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:53:56 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: January 16, 2000 - January 22, 2000 Message-ID: <5DA626C8DC60D7108525686A0051D3A1.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id JAA28187 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3175 Calendar of the Soul [January 16, 2000 - January 22, 2000] Forty-second Week (January 19-25) In this the shrouding gloom of winter The soul feels ardently impelled To manifest its innate strength, To guide itself to realms of darkness, Anticipating thus Through warmth of heart the sense-world's revelation. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Es ist in diesem Winterdunkel Die Offenbarung eigner Kraft Der Seele starker Trieb, In Finsternisse sie zu lenken Und ahnend vorzufühlen Durch Herzenswärme Sinnesoffenbarung. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-2000 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+42 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:25:22 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20298 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:25:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA27214; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:19:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov (megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov [199.133.133.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12478 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.133.131.5] (marvel.salinas.ars.usda.gov [199.133.131.5]) by megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id JAA18525 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:50:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200001181750.JAA18525@megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:46:36 -0800 Subject: Re: Off : weed spreadsheet From: "Joel Stryker" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3176 Ian, Thanks very much for the spreadsheet, it looks great! I had no idea it would be so inclusive. You've obviously spent a lot of time on this. It will be a great help as I dive into Pfeiffer's book, among others. Joel ---------- >From: "I & K Buckingham" >To: "BDnow" >Subject: Off : weed spreadsheet >Date: Fri, Jan 14, 2000, 4:18 PM > > For those who have asked for a copy, not a problem. Am taking the > opportunity to add a few bits of info onto it before sending it to the > ethers. You should all have it in your folders in a couple of days. > Regards > > Ian Buckingham > Maungatawhiri > New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:25:54 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20318 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:25:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA27390; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:20:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov (megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov [199.133.133.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14013 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:43:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.133.131.5] (marvel.salinas.ars.usda.gov [199.133.131.5]) by megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id KAA16397 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:04:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200001181804.KAA16397@megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:00:34 -0800 Subject: Re: sea salt, was..... From: "Joel Stryker" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3177 I know the red color in many evaporation pools is caused by a salt-loving bacterium, Halobacterium salinarium. More likely, it is caused by a community of this and other bacteria as well. The evaporation pools around the San Francisco bay area are a great example of this, and I think they are really beautiful by airplane (at least aesthetically). I have no idea why these wouldn't grow in the Colima pools, but I don't know the process. By the way, I've been "lurking" on this list for quite a while, as I've recently discovered the area of biodynamics. Listening to the conversations has very much inspired me to begin planning how to start my own biodynamic growing. I was in Fair Oaks last night, just driving through, and stopped in at the garden up there, on the Rudolph Steiner College campus. It was a beautiful little oasis in the midst of gridlock, and except for the sound of the traffic, I wouldn't have known I was just outside of Sacramento. I plan to start adding my voice to this list more often, if only to ask more questions of those more experienced than me. Joel > > I belive, though not sure, that the color in the "gourmet" or "natural" > salts is in part a "contamination" by the soils forming the "evaporation > and crystalization pools", In the case of Colima, this people use black > food grade plastic as an underliner for the pools and the water comes, not > from the lagoon itself, but from a sort of underground sea water springs. > This facts alone could provide an explanation for the little color in the > Colima salt. > > If posible,please have her comment. > > Regards > > Guillermo Romero Ibarrola > Comala, Colima, MEXICO > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:26:26 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20334 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:26:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA27571; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:20:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.txcyber.com (root@mail.txcyber.com [205.140.147.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16075 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:07:58 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp227.cy-net.net [208.21.195.36]) by mail.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12380 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:13:20 -0600 Message-Id: <200001181813.MAA12380@mail.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:13:05 -0600 Subject: Re: Off : weed spreadsheet Priority: normal In-reply-to: <002201bf5ef2$05734440$9bf631ca@computer> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3178 Ian; THANK YOU!! The spreadsheet is a great resource. I think I have a few I can add to our personal area weed selection, such as Mexican Sage (salvia), and some of the woodland perennials such as American BeautyBush and some others. Need to find some source material for our local names, such as, I know Pigweed is in the Amaranth family, but is it enough to be included in with your Amaranth section, or does it deserve it's own lines? Again, you've done a tremendous job and this is wonderful! Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:27:12 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20365 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA27859; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:21:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA29895 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:33:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d157.infoserve.net [199.175.157.157]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id MAA07619 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:42:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001201bf61f4$d968c5e0$9d9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF / Fw: GEN1-16 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:39:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3179 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 11:19 AM Subject: GEN1-16 > POLL-U.S. farmers plan decline in biotech crops > > Reuters - January 13, 2000 > > By Randy Fabi > > HOUSTON, Jan 13 (Reuters) - U.S. farmers plan to cut back sharply their >plantings of genetically modified soybeans, corn and cotton this year, >partly in response to a European backlash against bioengineered foods, a >Reuters straw poll said on Thursday. > > Reuters surveyed 400 U.S. farmers this week at the annual meeting of the >nation's largest farm organisation, the American Farm Bureau Federation. ... > > Participants in the Reuters poll said they planned reductions of 15 >percent in sowings of RoundUp Ready soybeans, 22 percent for RoundUp Ready >corn, 24 percent for Bt corn and 26 percent for Bt cotton. >..... > >http://washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/16/206l-011600-idx.html > >EPA Restricts Gene-Altered Corn in Response to Concerns > >Farmers Must Plant Conventional 'Refuges' to Reduce Threat of Ecological >Damage > >By Rick Weiss >Washington Post Staff Writer >Sunday, January 16, 2000; Page A02 > >The Environmental Protection Agency has placed new restrictions on the >cultivation of genetically modified corn, a response to concerns that >gene-altered crops may be causing ecological disruptions. > >The new restrictions, which were released late Friday and are effective >immediately, make unprecedented demands on the producers of biotech seeds >and on farmers who wish to plant so-called Bt corn, which has been endowed >with a gene that allows the corn to make its own insecticide. > >Among the new restrictions is a requirement that farmers plant 20 percent >to 50 percent of their acreage in conventional corn, which some farmers >have said would be burdensome and some experts said could lead to a >decline in plantings of the high-tech seeds. > >.... > The Ottawa Citizen > >Sunday, January 9, 2000 , PAGE A1 > >Wild salmon face battle for survival: >Introduction of genes from farmed fish threatens Atlantic species >by Tom Spears > >Accidental tinkering with the genes in prized Atlantic salmon is such a >threat that whole populations of the fish face likely extinction, >government and private scientists say. > >In the Gulf of Maine and the Bay of Fundy, so few wild fish are breeding >that each river's local population ``is teetering on the brink of >extinction,'' says Bill Taylor, the president of the Atlantic Salmon >Federation. > >It's not that the wild fish are fished out. Rather the problem is >competition from domesticated salmon raised in pens, which escape and breed >with the wild fish, weakening the gene pool. > >And meanwhile, research continues into ways of giving the farmed salmon >genes from other fish species -- in the hope of creating fish more suited >to farming. > >Genes to grow faster. Genes to resist freezing. Genes brought from European >salmon. Genes that just sort of adapted in the unnatural world of a fish >farm's cages. > >``Genetic changes are forever,'' Mr. Taylor warns. And he's alarmed that >these transgenic fish -- so far restricted to the lab -- will some day push >their wild cousins off the map. > >``We're having terrible trouble getting our message out,'' says Sue Scott, >vice-president of the federation, which represents salmon-lovers in central >and eastern Canada and the United States. > >``They are experimenting with the chinook genes (in Atlantic salmon) for >faster growth,'' she says. ``The name of the game is productivity, and that >means making salmon bigger. > >``We're trying to nip things in the bud here,'' she says. ``We're trying to >prevent the weakening of protocols that could control this problem. We >could learn from Europe.'' But transgenic fish aren't the only genetic >worrying point. Ordinary breeding -- the same thing farmers have done with >chickens and pigs and cattle for thousands of years -- can also cause a >gradual but disturbing shift in the genetic makeup of Atlantic salmon. > >Fish farms breed salmon in huge pens submerged in the cold ocean water, >each with thousands of fish. > >While they aren't splicing in genes, ``they pick particular traits,'' Ms. >Scott says. ``They're breeding fat, lazy fish that grow quickly. They don't >have the sleek shape and muscle development of the wild fish, and then they >escape and breed with wild fish. > >``The result is a dilution of the gene pool.'' Two or three times each year >a storm will flip a cage over, and all 10,000 or more fish in it escape. >Seals can also chew holes in cages to get at the salmon inside. > >Two U.S. agencies, the Fish and Wildlife Service and the National Marine >Fisheries Service, concluded this fall that Atlantic salmon in Maine are >edging towards extinction. > >Blame genetic interference by the aquaculture industry for part of it, they >say. > >``The use of European/North American hybrids by the industry appears to be >increasing,'' they say in a grim report. This refers not to crossing >different species of salmon, but to mixing strains of Atlantic salmon from >Europe and North America, which look the same but have adapted to different >living conditions. > >``Aquaculture practices continue to pose a serious threat to the genetic >integrity of the Gulf of Maine (salmon),'' the report says. > >And when you mess up the salmon's genes, they say, the resulting farmed >fish ``have the potential to disrupt, displace and genetically >contaminate'' their wild cousins. > >Salmon are funny that way. Each wild fish belongs to a specific population, >hatched and raised in a particular stream. Fish from the Miramichi River >don't spawn in the Restigouche, period. And the scientists say that >throwing fish from Iceland or Scotland into the mix will disturb normal >breeding patterns. > >Wild Atlantic salmon are already breeding in numbers far below the level >needed for a stable population, says Mr. > >Taylor. Wild salmon are so specialized that they spawn and swim up or >downstream at different times in different rivers, adapting to local river >conditions over millennia. > >The trouble with bad genes is that fish lose the ability to spawn and >survive. They may not know where to spawn, or may try to swim down to the >sea (as young fish) or upstream (as spawning adults) at the wrong time of >year. > >In Europe, the same problem exists. ``One of the joys of the Atlantic >salmon is that they're not a standard product,'' says Jeremy Read, >president of the Atlantic Salmon Trust, a British conservation group. > >``The fish are different from stream to stream, area to area.'' Yet farm >salmon are bred in Scotland to have standard characteristics: Tolerance to >crowded cages and early maturity, for example. > >And there, too, the farm fish breed with wild ones, spreading their >domestic genes. > >After one mass escape of farm fish in Scotland, trackers managed to fit >radio transmitter tags to some of the escapees and followed them upstream >as they spawned. > >They also detected in some of the fry (newly hatched fish) a type of >synthetic protein that is put in feed pellets in fish farms, but doesn't >exist in natural food. This proved some of the fry had farm fish as parents. > >At Memorial University in Newfoundland, professor Garth Fletcher has been >transferring genes from one fish to another since 1982. > >In the old days he was extracting the bit of DNA that lets flounder create >its own chemical antifreeze solution, and using a needle to inject that >same gene into the eggs of Atlantic salmon. > >Flounder resist cold temperatures much better than salmon do. In the wild, >that's not a problem for salmon: They migrate far out to sea and find water >that's warm enough for them to survive. > >But domestic salmon in sea cages can't migrate anywhere, and the cold can >hurt them. Ice crystals can actually form in their blood, killing them. > >........ >Farmers Weekly (UK) 14 January 1999 > >GM pollen gaps slated > >RECOMMENDED isolation distances intended to prevent crosspollination >between genetically modified trial crops and conventional varieties are >wholly inadequate, claims a new report. > >The independent study, undertaken by the National Pollen Research Unit for >the Soil Association warns that pollen from some GM crops can carry far >further than previously thought. > >Drawing on all previous publications on the subject in what the Soil >Association says is the most comprehensive study to date, the report says >oilseed rape, sugar beet > >and maize bring the highest risk of cross-pollination with other varieties >of crop or wild relatives. > >The authors refer to studies which report that OSR pollen can travel up to >4km, and recorded distribution of sugar beet and maize pollen 800m from >source. > >Government-approved guidelines drawn up by GM industry body the Supply >Chain Initiative on Genetically Modified Agricultural Crops (SCIMAC} allow >modified rape to be grown 200m from organic crops of the same species, and >50 m from conventional varieties. > >__________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign >for Mandatory labelling and long-term >testing of genetically engineered food >500 Wilbrod Street, Ottawa, ON K1N 6N2 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net >http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >subcription to genetic engineering news of 12 months >is $35 (payable to BanGEF at above address) >__________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:27:37 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20606 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:27:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28006; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:21:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06733 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:43:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([210.55.144.58]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000118215624.WXBL6460852.mta1-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:56:24 +1300 Message-ID: <3884E006.200F@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:49:58 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNOW Subject: Garuda Books Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3180 We are presently in the process of putting the Garuda BD Books up onto our website for free distribution. "Biodynamic Essays" is up and the first few chapters of my new work "Spiral Astrology" are there. It all takes time to reformat everything for the web, but this is a start. You can view these at www.get.to/Garuda, then 'Books' cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:28:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20633 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:28:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28166; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:22:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02038 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:16:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.146] (du-148-233-78-146.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOK00HABBI7G3@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 21:10:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 21:12:06 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: is this working ? In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3181 Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:28:47 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20659 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:28:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28410; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:22:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA25833 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:20:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.56] (pm3shep1-163-63.intrepid.net [209.190.163.63]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA17486 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:26:11 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:29:36 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Fwd: FBI INDIAN STANDOFF - Pine Ridge Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3182 Not evaluated for factuality -AB >From: "Brian Hill" >Subject: FBI INDIAN STANDOFF - Pine Ridge >Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:49:58 -0800 >X-Priority: 3 > > >> >>FBI INDIAN STANDOFF - URGENT SITUATION - PASS ON TO ALL LISTS >>PLACE: Pine Ridge Reservation - near Sioux Falls, South Dakota >>from Dot Bibee (tndothb@aol.com) FREEDOM NOW NETWORK >> >>FIRST REPLY: >>Date: 1/17/2000 10:01:10 PM Eastern Standard Time >>From: (Bettye) ozark1@alltel.net (ozark1) >>To: Tndothb@aol.com >> >>Dot, I just spoke with a person there. I am part indian myself and >have >>friends on the reservation. I was told by "Talking Leaves" that >there are >clo >>se to 200 feds there and are in riot gear and armored vehicles. The >>treasurer has intentions of returning tonight to the tribal bldg. >with >armed >>guard. There are blocks on several groups...I could not notify >anyone. >>Apparently some of our freedom sites are being heavily monitored!! >Not only >>was my message alert stopped but so were others that were posting >information. >> Pray for these people!!! This cannot be another Ruby Ridge or >Wounded >Knee >>or Waco. These people have had their money stolen from them. They are >in >>poverty as it is..The treasurer is white..I understand that they >found a >>loophole in the treaty of 1834 and the whites have moved in to take >over >the >>reservation. If you can get the word out, go for it...You can >personally >>call: 307-857-6984 and that is M.C. Tanner...(thunderlite). Tell him >that I >>gave you his number...ozark1....(Bettye). I just got off the phone >with him >>about 30 min. ago... BV >>============================== >> >>SECOND REPLY: >>I called M.C. Tanner at the above number - and received the following >eMail >>back immediately. >> >>Pine Ridge Situation Said Reaching Critical Mass//URGENT!!] >>Date: 1/17/2000 11:04:44 PM Eastern Standard Time >>From: mctanner@tcinc.net (Mike Tanner) >>Reply-to: HREF="mailto:mctanner@tcinc.net">mctanner@tcinc.net >>To: tndothb@aol.com >> >>Follow the link for more info.... >>Blessings, Rev. ThunderLight >> >>********************************************************************* >* >>Headers deleted..... >>Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:31:17 +0000 >>From: "NewsHawk Inc." >>Subj: Pine Ridge Situation Said Reaching Critical Mass//URGENT!! >> >>Forward as far and widely as possible! >>NewsHawk=AE Inc. >>-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- >>We've been coordinating info at this site: >>http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=3D002Kto >>Things have fallen apart and the shooting may start soon. Latest >posting >>---------------------- >>BAD NEWS: >>The Treasurer that the people are trying to get removed and set this >whole >>protest off just went on the local radio station - announced he had >put >>together an 'armed force' who are going to retake the Tribal Building >by >'any >>means necessary.' The FeeBee's are going to pull out and allow this >to >>happen! "Reason - it is an internal matter." It has just gone from a >>peaceful protest to the beginnings of a violent confrontation! >> >>Journalists and Reporters reading this - the phone number to the >Tribal >>Building is (605) 867-5821. >>----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >>Return-Path: >>Header deleted.... >> >>FREEDOM NOW NETWORK >>%DOT BIBEE (tndothb@aol.com) >>P. O. Box 20656 >>Knoxville, TN 37940 >>Ph/FAX (865) 577-7011 >> >> >> >> -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 13:29:19 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20672 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:29:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28572; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:23:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02571 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:18:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.56] (pm3shep3-163-148.intrepid.net [209.190.163.148]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA07862 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:23:51 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:27:38 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Fwd: Re: FBI INDIAN STANDOFF - Pine Ridge Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3183 >X-Sender: wsears@mail.berkshire.net >Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:00:00 -0500 >From: Wanita Sears >Subject: Re: FBI INDIAN STANDOFF - Pine Ridge > >As of last night to my knowledge (from Tribal Office spokesperson, a Tribal >police officer not called out, about to get laid off from the mismanagement >and KILI radio monitoring) the FBI did collect the HUD records and allowed >Traditionals reentry after. The closest unbiased media article to my >knowledge is this. > >GROUP OCCUPIES TRIBAL BUILDING >by Hugh O'Gara >Journal Staff Writer >A >simmering dispute over power and money on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation > >apparently boiled over Sunday afternoon when about 100 people took control >of >the tribal headquarters building. >'" I wouldn't call it a takeover," >tribal Police Chief Barney Whiteface >said Sunday evening. " It's more of a >sit-in.....here's no violence.....It's >peaceful." >Members of the group >inside the Red Cloud Administration building at >Pine Ridge issued a list >of eight demands, including the immediate >resignations of the 17- member >tribal council and Oglala Sioux Tribe >Treasurer Wesley " Chuck" Jacobs. > >Meanwile, 10 agents from the inspector general's office of the federal > >Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) seized files and >computer >records Sunday afternoon from the Oglala Sioux Housing Authority >office in >PIne Ridge. >U.S. Attorney Ted McBride told the Associated Press >the search warrant >was related to an " ongoing" investigation, but he >would not discuss details >of the case. >The takeover at the tribal >headquarters building took place about 2 p.m. >Sunday. >A spokesman for the >group occupying the administration building said >tribal President Harold >Salway signed an order suspending treasurer Jacobs >and also ordered tribal >workers to stay away from the headquarters building >indefinitely. > >Spokesman Dale Looks Twice, who was inside the headquarters building > >Sunday evening, said the group also wants the tribe's 13- member finance > >committee reduced in size for recent " decisions without the ( tribal) > >constitution in mind that are causing turmoil among the people." >Looks >Twice said the group is asking for the FBI to seize law >enforcement, >housing and tribal records from the headquarters. " We welcome >the FBI to >come and retrieve these records immediately," Looks Twice said >Sunday >evening. >" We're going to be here until these demands are met," the >Manderson >resident said. Pleas for food for the people in the building >were being >broadcast Sunday evening. >Reservation residents said the >takeover is the culmination of months of >frustration over such issues as >money, jobs and law enforcement, with the >ongoing fight between Salway and >treasurer Jacobs as the visible tip of the >iceberg. >There issues include: > >- Law enforcement: The $7.8 million federal Circle Project grant announced > >last July includes about $5.5 million for 59 additional reservation police > >officers as well as police cars and equipment. Authorities say the > >financially strapped tribe jumped the gun in hiring officers and now must >pay >back about $1.1 million. >In it's Jan 6 meeting, the tribe's finance >committee called for a meeting >" with the key players" to find out " who >dropped the ball" and who is >responsible for the problems with the Circle >project. >- Jobs: At that same meeting, the tribal finance committee also >ordered all >90- day temporary job appointments reviewed. Authorities say >that amounts to >about 414 jobs, which are in short supply on the >reservation. " People are >afraid of losing their jobs," one reservation >resident said Sunday. >- Money: Reservation authorities say there is a >question about what happened >to funds sent to the tribe after last >summer's tornado that wiped out the >community of Oglala, specifically a >$30,000 check that went from the casino >revenues of a Minnesota tribe. > >Tribal President Salway first suspended Jacobs in late October for > >alleged mismanagement of tribal funds, but the decision was over-turned >days >later by a tribal court judge. >The demands by people occupying the >tribal headquarters also called for >return of the Buffalo Gap National >Grasslands to the tribe, under a program >that buys former tribal land, and >extension of tribal jurisdiction over >adjoining Bennett and Jackson >counties as well as the south unit of Badlands >National Park. >The group >also demanded a " complete" public audit of the tribe's Prairie >Winds >Casino and full funding for tribal programs so they can be run " >without >interference from tribal governmlelnt." >Police Chief Whiteface said Sunday >that officers will monitor the >occupied building but he did not plan to >take any action. Whiteface said he >went inside the building and, " They >were pretty friendly." >The group occupying the tribal headquarters asked >for a meeting with >federal officials this morning at the Red Cloud >building. >Neither Salway, Jacobs nor federal officials wee available for >comment >Sunday evening. > >There also was a statement that this matter is Oglala vs. Oglala and being >handled that way. > >Wanita > >At 11:49 pm 2000-01-18 -0800, you wrote: >> >>> >>>FBI INDIAN STANDOFF - URGENT SITUATION - PASS ON TO ALL LISTS >>>PLACE: Pine Ridge Reservation - near Sioux Falls, South Dakota >>>from Dot Bibee (tndothb@aol.com) FREEDOM NOW NETWORK >>> >>>FIRST REPLY: >>>Date: 1/17/2000 10:01:10 PM Eastern Standard Time >>>From: (Bettye) ozark1@alltel.net (ozark1) >>>To: Tndothb@aol.com >>> >>>Dot, I just spoke with a person there. I am part indian myself and >>have >>>friends on the reservation. I was told by "Talking Leaves" that >>there are >>clo >>>se to 200 feds there and are in riot gear and armored vehicles. The >>>treasurer has intentions of returning tonight to the tribal bldg. >>with >>armed >>>guard. There are blocks on several groups...I could not notify >>anyone. >>>Apparently some of our freedom sites are being heavily monitored!! >>Not only >>>was my message alert stopped but so were others that were posting >>information. >>> Pray for these people!!! This cannot be another Ruby Ridge or >>Wounded >>Knee >>>or Waco. These people have had their money stolen from them. They are >>in >>>poverty as it is..The treasurer is white..I understand that they >>found a >>>loophole in the treaty of 1834 and the whites have moved in to take >>over >>the >>>reservation. If you can get the word out, go for it...You can >>personally >>>call: 307-857-6984 and that is M.C. Tanner...(thunderlite). Tell him >>that I >>>gave you his number...ozark1....(Bettye). I just got off the phone >>with him >>>about 30 min. ago... BV >>>============================== >>> >>>SECOND REPLY: >>>I called M.C. Tanner at the above number - and received the following >>eMail >>>back immediately. >>> >>>Pine Ridge Situation Said Reaching Critical Mass//URGENT!!] >>>Date: 1/17/2000 11:04:44 PM Eastern Standard Time >>>From: mctanner@tcinc.net (Mike Tanner) >>>Reply-to: >HREF="mailto:mctanner@tcinc.net">mctanner@tcinc.net >>>To: tndothb@aol.com >>> >>>Follow the link for more info.... >>>Blessings, Rev. ThunderLight >>> >>>********************************************************************* >>* >>>Headers deleted..... >>>Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:31:17 +0000 >>>From: "NewsHawk Inc." >>>Subj: Pine Ridge Situation Said Reaching Critical Mass//URGENT!! >>> >>>Forward as far and widely as possible! >>>NewsHawk=AE Inc. >>>-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- >>>We've been coordinating info at this site: >>>http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=3D002Kto >>>Things have fallen apart and the shooting may start soon. Latest >>posting >>>---------------------- >>>BAD NEWS: >>>The Treasurer that the people are trying to get removed and set this >>whole >>>protest off just went on the local radio station - announced he had >>put >>>together an 'armed force' who are going to retake the Tribal Building >>by >>'any >>>means necessary.' The FeeBee's are going to pull out and allow this >>to >>>happen! "Reason - it is an internal matter." It has just gone from a >>>peaceful protest to the beginnings of a violent confrontation! >>> >>>Journalists and Reporters reading this - the phone number to the > >Tribal > >>>Building is (605) 867-5821. >>>----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >>>Return-Path: >>>Header deleted.... >>> >>>FREEDOM NOW NETWORK >>>%DOT BIBEE (tndothb@aol.com) >>>P. O. Box 20656 >>>Knoxville, TN 37940 >>>Ph/FAX (865) 577-7011 >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 21:25:02 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29191 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:25:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25659; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:18:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06719 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:57:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.166] (du-148-233-78-166.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOL00651JEFTS@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:59:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:00:02 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Comments on Salt? In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id NAA06734 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3184 > From Sally Fallon (in response to Guillermo's question about which >trace minerals to test for) > >I think the salt should be tested for all trace minerals. The beautry of the >trace mineral profile in unrefined sea salt is that it gives us all the trace >minerals that we have evolved with, and in the proportions of sea water, >which is what has provided trace minerals since the dawn of time. Sally >-- Thanks Allan: "all trace elements" will not be a lot of help in ordering the analytical lab tests, but please thank the Lady on my behalf anyway. I will continue searching for what makes sea salt natural and what other salts or elements contribute to its claimed benefits. Before you said: >I'll ask Sally if she'd like to comment on white salt, etc. I know >she was using salt that is collected totally from ocean 'spray,' so I >question the 'evaporation pool' theory. (Is it possible that the bed >of the ocean contributes to the color?) My assumption is that 'the >assumption' is that white salt has been processed in some fashion." Let me ask you what is the drying process from "salt that is collected totally from ocean 'spray" ?, are you talking about sprayed dry ?, if so, then you are not talking about sun dried salt. If you are talking about salt collected from ocean mist and crystalized probably in some standing structure, I would be interested in knowing details about such procedure. I never heard anything like that before. Sorry it is a bit confusing, please explain. I have seen the operation, it is quite primitive and it has no purification process. Most of this salt is used for non-food related applications (ie industrial cooling systems), so that only a small fraction goes to human consuption and then, for the primary producer and given the price, IMO will make no sense to invest in a purifying process. As I said before, there is a need to chemically characterize this salt in relatioship to the specific demands of the "natural foods" market, until then I will be making no more claims or guesses about it, but do want to thank everyone for the help and the interest you have been providing. I will let you know the results of my findings latter on. Warm regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 21:25:14 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29203 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:25:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25767; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:19:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11754 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:14:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.175] (pm3shep4-163-175.intrepid.net [209.190.163.175]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13684 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:20:15 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:24:13 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Welcome Back!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3185 Hi, Friends!! Envirolink, the company that serves this list, has been having some severe software problems in stability. I hope this is a permanent fix, but from what I understand from them, they are not certain. So, let's confer like there's no tomorrow!! Let me know if any of your email was lost. None should have been, but I'd like to know. Thanks -Allan Balliett moderator, BD Now! -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 21:25:50 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29220 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:25:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25920; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:19:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from wave.sheridan.wy.us (root@wave.sheridan.wy.us [206.54.116.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15913 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:29:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from dbrown (vcn1.usrnet-4.sher.wy.vcn.com [209.193.70.157]) by wave.sheridan.wy.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA13290 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:31:10 -0700 Message-ID: <006a01bf62bd$3e8afba0$9d46c1d1@dbrown.wavecom.net> From: "Audrey Malan" To: Subject: Re: Off : weed spreadsheet Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:39:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3186 Same here. Thank you! - Audrey redearth@wavecom.net -----Original Message----- From: Wells To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Off : weed spreadsheet >I'd like a copy unless BDNow is putting it out--- Wells >----- Original Message ----- >From: Gareth and Yvonne Bodle >To: >Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 4:46 PM >Subject: Re: Off : weed spreadsheet > > >> Cheers >> Looking Forward to it >> Gareth >> -----Original Message----- >> From: I & K Buckingham >> To: BDnow >> Date: Saturday, 15 January 2000 12:53 PM >> Subject: Off : weed spreadsheet >> >> >> >For those who have asked for a copy, not a problem. Am taking the >> >opportunity to add a few bits of info onto it before sending it to the >> >ethers. You should all have it in your folders in a couple of days. >> >Regards >> > >> >Ian Buckingham >> >Maungatawhiri >> >New Zealand >> > >> > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 21:26:09 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29275 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:26:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26012; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:20:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21079 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:58:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-164-223-133.s133.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.223.133] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12B1KX-0005W1-00; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:03:50 -0500 Message-ID: <388618FA.8611EB92@erols.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:05:14 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Hog-erators in the food garden References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3187 Allan: This is good news, learning about where my flea beetle problem comes from! I was INUNDATED with flea beetles last year. Turns out, I caused my own problem - overwintering kale (and radishes) and cabbage - which didn't make it, anyway! Thanks for that note - Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 21:26:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29287 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:26:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26187; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:20:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23524 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:09:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from siesta (p168-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.168]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id JAA13710 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:14:55 +1300 Message-ID: <008301bf62b9$04ced980$a88a6dcb@siesta> From: "I & K Buckingham" To: References: <38829CB8.5CA8@xtra.co.nz> Subject: Re: mineral accumulators Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:08:55 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3188 ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen Atkinson > Can we deduct from the chart that as nutrient accumulators these weeds > would actually grow best where the soil is deficient in these elements? The short answer is yes and no :>) It would be a good place to start by adding to areas lacking minerals. But some plants do grow well in areas high in minerals. There is a name for them which slips me at present. What they do is collect excess mineral content from the soils. An example are those used on saline soils to remove some of the salinity. Also you have the case of scotch thistle (cirsium vulgare) which may be growing on areas of low K, but their main function on that site may be to heal the soil after damage. My understanding is that most of the plants on the list would put in more than they take out. Regards Ian Buckingham Maungatawhiri New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 21:27:02 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29296 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:27:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26268; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28022 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:29:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from siesta (p51-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.51]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id JAA17585 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:34:42 +1300 Message-ID: <00b701bf62bb$c83e5d80$a88a6dcb@siesta> From: "I & K Buckingham" To: References: <200001181813.MAA12380@mail.txcyber.com> Subject: Re: Off : pigweed (spreadsheet) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:28:41 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3189 ----- Original Message ----- From: >I know Pigweed is in the Amaranth family, but is it enough to be included in with your Amaranth > section, or does it deserve it's own lines? I would suspect that one could add it to the Amaranth family. Pigweed, or redroot as we call it, is listed under the accumulators but not under the soil indicators. I personally would use the indicators for others in the family. Unless stated otherwise. For an example, yes I have pigweed in my garden or pasture. It indicates nutrient rich conditions. Are there other plant types indicating the same message. That is what we have to be careful of.Missing the woods for the trees. We must remember to view the whole picture. Regards Ian Buckingham Maungatawhiri New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 21:27:23 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29304 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:27:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26361; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:21:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05431 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:58:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.175] (pm3shep4-163-175.intrepid.net [209.190.163.175]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA07109 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:03:25 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:07:22 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Fwd: Workshop offered: Rethinking Alchemy - The Bodynamic (sic) Connection Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3190 Well folks, looks to me like we've got two Waldorf teachers leaping forward by looking further back! Are you going to be able to attend this, martha? -Allan >X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to >owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f >From: Hedgerowfarm@aol.com >Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:15:37 EST >Subject: Workshop offered: Rethinking Alchemy - The Bodynamic Connection >To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu >Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > > > >Return-path: Naturaedu@aol.com >From: Naturaedu@aol.com >Full-name: Naturaedu >Message-ID: <4.952a9d.25b77471@aol.com> >Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:11:29 EST >Subject: Fwd: (no subject) >To: Hedgerowfarm@aol.com >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part2_86.35eca4.25b77471_boundary" >X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 > > > >Return-path: Naturaedu@aol.com >From: Naturaedu@aol.com >Full-name: Naturaedu >Message-ID: <9.10cd00b.25b5f5cb@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:58:51 EST >Subject: (no subject) >To: ipia@txcyber.com >CC: hedgerowfarm@aolol.com, hedgerow@diac.com >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 > > >Rethinking Alchemy --The Biodynamic Connection--Part 1 >The first in a series of workshops offered jointly by the Institute of Post >Industrial Agriculture and Natura Educational Programs. > >Friday, February 25-Sunday-February 27 2000 >College Station, Texas > > >Alchemy and Biodynamic Agriculture >This intensive 3 day workshop will explore the alchemical origins of >biodynamic agriculture and how the alchemical principles may be used to >extend the BD farming practices. We will look to the innovations of both the >biodynamic and the spagyric preparations and investigate plant extracts, >medicines, and the biodynamic preparations. The relationship between the >biodynamic preparations and the alchemical spagyric preparations is an >essential key for understanding and the advancement of biodynamic agriculture. >There will be presentations on reading the 'Book of Nature' and understanding >the plantary signatures of plants. Further investigations of this approach >will be explored in the laboratory, and through various excercises. We will >work 'hands-on' in the lab and familiarity with chemical laboratory work will >be helpful, but not required. >The study and the practice of alchemy is based on modesty, patience, >seriousness and determination; in otherwords, an inner as well as an outer >orientatiom. All the workshops and presentations will flow around this >emphasis with the focus that we must form a conscious relationship to the >inner conditions of matter. >Of special interest are the medicinal substances that can be applied >externally to supplement the internal spargic preparations and biodynamic >foods. This topic will lead us into making formulations using the oils of >plants. Many other topics for further study will come up and future workshops >will be announced to aid the participants in continuing their studies. >This program is for those with advanced interests in the medical and healing >arts, biodynamic farming and gardening, herbalists, Waldorf science teachers >and those with a special interest in nature and alchemy. > >SCHEDULE >Friday 9:00 Introduction to the weekend workshop > 10:00 Short break with refreshments > 10:30 Lab work and demonstrations > 12:00 Lunch and discussion > 2:00 - 5:00 Lab work and demonstrations > Friday evening -reflection and summation of the day > >Saturday 9:00 Presentation on the work with plants > 10:00 Short break with refreshments > 10:30 Lab work with plants > 12:30 Lunch break > 2:00 to 5:00 Lab work with plant extracts > Saturday evening- reflection and summation of the day > >Sunday 9:00 Presentation on the work with plants > 10:30 Short break > 11:00 Lab work with plants > 1:00 Lunch and summation > >FEE: $250.00 > >For more information contact Lee Don Bienski >phone: 409 696 2003 Email:ipia@txcyber.com > > >PRESENTERS >Lee Don Bienski of The Institute of Post Industrial Agriculture will speak, >demonstrate, and supervise working with plants utilizing standard laboratory >equipment. Lee Don, PHD chemistry, is a chemist, a biodynamic farmer, a >reseacher, a professor, and a Waldorf High School science teacher. He has >created new formulae for healing soaps and medicaments. > >Jim Barausky of Natura Educational Programs is a biodynamic farmer and a >teacher at The Naropa University and several Waldorf High Schools. >Cheryl Mulholland of Natura Educational Programs is a Waldorf teacher, a >social activist, an herbalist, and an artist. > >Natura Educational Programs is a 501c3 not-for-profit organization. Our >mission is cutural renewal through cutivating our relationship to Nature as a >living being. > > -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 21:27:45 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29312 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:27:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26424; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:21:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17441 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:30:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.166] (du-148-233-78-166.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOL00A97OCVFU@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:46:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:47:20 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Sally Fallon's/ organic and nutrition In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id QAA17453 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3191 Thanks Allan for providing info on the web site of Ms. Sally Fallon. I do have trouble with the way she chooses to present arguments, specially when she calls her approach "truth" and other perspectives "Myths". As an example of this lets take the Vit B 12 and vegetarian dilema. The web site claims that vegetarian diets are unsuitable for human life, she uses the Vit B12 (cianocobalamine) argued deficiency in vegan diets to support this. (please refer to http://www.westonaprice.org/myths_truths_vegetarianism.htm) where Ms. Fallon's site makes the following strong statement: ********* "MYTH #2: Vitamin B12 can be obtained from plant sources. Of all the myths, this is perhaps the most dangerous. Vegans who do not supplement their diet with vitamin B12 will eventually get anaemia (a fatal condition) as well as severe nervous and digestive system damage (6). Claims are made that B12 is present in certain algae, tempeh (a fermented soy product) and brewer's yeast. All of them are false." ********** IMO opinion this is a particular subject where all of us as organic producers have an advantage and a probable explanation to the Vit B12 deficiency occuring in modern vegan diets. Back in the old days of BD-l (june 97) and in reference to the nutritional value of organic foods I wrote: ******************* "I do not think that we will be able to find much differences between conventional and organic or BD foods by using the limited observation instruments available to positivist science (reductionist view). Nevertheless, in the New Ground section of the sept-oct 1996 issue of Organic Gardening (Rodale Press), the editors mentioned a study conducted at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich and published in "Plant and Soil 167:305-311, 1994, where the authors found twice the amount of B12 vitamin in crops treated with manure than in crops grown on soil treated with pure B12. Vit B12 is not commonly available (from a human nutrition point of view) in vegetable sources, therefore this finding might be a breaktrough to explain why the modern vegetarian diets are normally deficient in this nutrient." ********************** This same observation has been extended recently by a former professor of mine from Cornell University's Division of Nutritional Sciences; Dr. Colin Campbell, who is one of the leading scientists in evaluating the role of dietary nutrients in the onset of disease, mainly cancer. Following is an article by Dr. Campbell posted recently in Sanet which includes references: **************** FOR YOUR INFORMATION AND CONSIDERATION (with references) Well, is this sustainable agriculture and beneficial for all? And perhaps this is a boon for vegetarians? http://www.newcenturynutrition.com/NCN/ariticles/b12breakthrough.shtml "B12 Breakthrough: Missing Nutrient Found in Plants" - T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D. Of all the nutritional concerns that can plague vegetarians - and especially complete vegetarians or vegans - I doubt any is more daunting than the specter of vitamin B12 deficiency. This is especially so because conventional wisdom has it that this essential vitamin is virtually unavailable from plant foods. Because I have often wondered how valid this thinking is, I've asked myself why, if the health benefits of a plant-based diet are as comprehensive as contemporary research suggests - meaning that Nature did the packaging for us during our evolution and that a plant-based diet is our natural diet - then why did she leave out this one very important piece of the puzzle? Having paid attention to the research literature and having questioned clinicians who treat vegan patients, I've reached the following somewhat unorthodox conclusions and observations: 1. Contrary to the most recent U.S. Dietary Guidelines, B12 can be found in plants. 2. Organically grown plants contain higher levels of B12 than plants grown non-organically with chemical fertilizers. 3. Plant roots are able to absorb certain vitamins produced by soil microorganisms, thus suggesting that plants grown in healthy soil, full of microflora and microfauna, are more nutritious. 4. Vegans - and anyone else - should be able to obtain B12 by consuming organically grown produce. 5. Evidence that plants obtain vitamins from the soil has been available for several decades. To understand what has brought me to these conclusions, let's ask three essential questions: (1) Are vegans really at greater risk of B12 deficiency? (2) Does a vegan diet provide all the B12 that we need? (3) Assuming that there is at least a good chance that we evolved on this type of diet, how did we get our B12? Are vegans really at greater risk of B12 deficiency? Some evidence says yes; some invites skepticism. Clearly, vegans do generally have lower blood concentrations of B12. A number of studies have shown this. But these low concentrations mean little unless there is a higher incidence of the accompanying blood (megaloblastic anemia) and nerve (parathesia) disorders, for which there seems to be little or no evidence. What should be acknowledged is that the concentrations of other blood factors, such as cholesterol, also are very different among vegans, and for very good health reasons at that. Why should we expect the lower B12 levels to be an exception? A Look at the B12 Biases: I must say that I feel some of the confusion surrounding this issue is due to the biases of the early B12 researchers who, over the years, made their beliefs very clear that vegetarianism and any other alternative approach to good ol' Western nutrition and medicine bordered on health fraud. Yet one of the more renowned of these investigators, Victor Herbert, reported that "inadequate absorption [in the digestive tract] accounts for more than 95% of the vitamin B12 deficiency cases seen in the United States." 1 The strong implication here is that the real problem in these cases is not due to an insufficient intake of B12 brought on by a vegan diet but that something is wrong with the so-called "intrinsic factor" which is secreted in the stomach and which is required for B12 absorption. Acknowledging this possibility, let's move on to our second question: Does a vegan diet provide all the B12 that we need? To consider this question, we must keep in mind the prevailing view that B12 is only found in animal-based foods. It's worth noting this point has been so prominent that the latest USDA dietary guidelines, while allowing for the possibility that vegetarian diets may be reasonably healthful, nonetheless admonish vegans to "supplement their diets with a source of this vitamin." According to the Victor Herbert position, "There is no active vitamin B12 in anything that grows out of the ground; storage is found only in animal products where it is ubiquitous and where it is ultimately derived from bacteria."2 He also states that vegans thus can get adequate B12 from their food only if it is fertilized with human waste, or if they "ingest some of their own feces" or fail to observe hygienic practices.3 What a prospect Herbert and the USDA folks have given to the poor vegans! I have naturally found this view to be highly constrained and, indeed, illogical, especially if one assumes the strong possibility that humans survived on a plant-based diet in our evolutionary past. I do believe there is overwhelming evidence that this is so even though it has not yet been scientifically proven. Please understand that I say this approach is not better or worse than that of Herbert and the USDA, I'm simply saying it's worth serious consideration. The B12 Breakthrough So, on to my third question, based on the assumption that we did evolve on a plant-based diet, and then asking, how did we get our B12? To begin, let's examine an exciting new research paper from Switzerland that was recently brought to my attention by my colleague, Dr. Jeffrey Gates.4 (Please see related story). Dr. Mozafar, the investigator, wanted to know if plants fertilized with organic matter (cow dung in this case) rather than those grown in control soils might acquire higher levels of B12. He was relying on a considerable amount of older research going back to 1926. Plants grown in soil fertilized with organic matter contained more of some B vitamins than plants grown in chemically fertilized soil, thus yielding plant products better able to sustain growth in experimental animals. Mozafar hypothesized that B12 produced by soil microorganisms might be absorbed through the roots into the plant itself. He investigated the question in a couple of ways. First, he showed for soybeans, barley and spinach - his three test plants - that those grown on soil fertilized with cow dung showed substantially higher levels of B12 than those grown without cow dung, the increases for barley and spinach being statistically significant. Then he examined the B12 content of soils that had been routinely fertilized over the previous 16 years either with inorganic or with a mixture of organic plus inorganic fertilizers, and found that those receiving organic fertilizer had significantly higher levels of B12. Putting the Nail in the Coffin? These results not only confirm earlier results concerning other B vitamins, but they seem to put the nail in the coffin of the Herbert-USDA hypothesis, namely that plants do not contain B12. They certainly do contain B12, and they contain even more of it when they are grown organically. Having said all this, I am still left with two questions: (1) Would other chemicals capable of killing soil microflora (pesticides, herbicides) have an effect similar to chemical fertilizers? and (2) How long will it take for our society to acknowledge the overall health value of plant-based diets, thus altering the cultural bias that leads Herbert and the USDA to "discover" problems such as that of B12 deficiency? I can say with some confidence that time will tell quite a different story than the one we've been hearing. References ========== 1 Herbert, V. Recommended dietary intakes (RDI) of vitamin B12 in humans. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 45:671Ð678, 1987. 2 United States Department of Agriculture, and United States Department of Health and Human Services. Dietary Guidelines for Americans, Fourth Edition, p. 43. Washington, D.C.:1995. 3 Herbert, V. Vitamin B12 : plant sources, requirements, and assay. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 48:852Ð858, 1988.4 Mozafar, A. Enrichment of some B-vitamins in plants with application of organic fertilizers. Plant and Soil, 167:305Ð311, 1994. ********************* Using Ms. Fallon's perspective, the uneducated public will run out and feast on red meat and lard, which I still think is not the way to go for everyone and in every circumstance, in fact I do believe is not the way for most humans. But I do believe that we need to heal our soils and our food supply in order to be able to be fully nourished by plants or animals, and in that respect I do appreciate Ms. Fallon's contributions. I will be interested in seeing what else she has to offer, but will take her nutrition related statements with a "pinch of salt", preferably, sea salt from Colima. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 21:28:17 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29321 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:28:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26525; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:22:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28569 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:57:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.166] (du-148-233-78-166.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOL005OCOHYW3@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:49:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:50:27 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: salt from Colima X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3192 This is a post that Hugh sent me, but I guess it was intended for all the list to see. >Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:06:24 -0500 >From: Hugh Lovel >Subject: Re: salt from Colima >To: Guillermo Romero >MIME-version: 1.0 > > >>>PS Perhaps lost in the envirolink crash: Sally Fallon suggests a full >>>test of the Colima salt for trace elements before it is presented as >>>a healthful sea salt. Current wisdom pre-supposes that WHITE SALT >>>does not have the range of trace minerals that darker salts have. >>>With Hugh's testimonial for the quality, you should have no trouble >>>proving this empirically. >>>-- > > >Dear List Members, > >Sea salt mineral contents do vary. I feel sure that the French sea salt >comes from a region where pollution is relatively high, and it wouldn't >surprise me that algae or other contaminants contribute to the grey color. >As I understand it the sun evaporated sea salts are sparkling white in >areas such as the Carribean where the seas are very clear. Try to imagine >evaporating sea salt at the mouth of the Rhine, the Mississippi, the Amazon >or the Nile. Actually near the mouth of the Nile might be a fairly choice >location to evaporate sea salt, though the Mediterranean in general is >terribly polluted. However, I would venture to guess that the very clean >appearance of the Colima salt is a mark of quality rather than otherwise. > >I've said it before and it's one of those things I find I have to keep >repeating. Taste it. If the flavor is excellent, the quality is excellent. >Taste and smell are two of the best methods of analysis known. I realize >people have an ingrained idea that taste is subjective and untrustworthy, >and that impersonal, mechanical analyses are objective and therefore >trustworthy. I'm afraid that is a crock of fecal matter. Subjective and >objective are one. What is really at issue is clarity, unobstructedness, of >perception. Let me repeat a quote from Goethe that is on page 120 of my >book: > >"Man himself, inasmuch as he makes use of his healthy senses, is the >greatest and most exact physical apparatus; and it is the greatest evil of >modern physics--that one has, as it were, detached the experiment from man >and wishes to gain knowledge of nature merely through that which artificial >instruments show." > >Best, >Hugh Lovel Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 21:28:28 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29329 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:28:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26582; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:22:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01621 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:27:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.166] (du-148-233-78-166.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOL002B6T7ELL@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:30:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:31:35 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: sea salt, was..... In-reply-to: <200001181804.KAA16397@megaton.pwa.ars.usda.gov> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id RAA01629 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3193 >I know the red color in many evaporation pools is caused by a salt-loving >bacterium, Halobacterium salinarium. More likely, it is caused by a >community of this and other bacteria as well. The evaporation pools around >the San Francisco bay area are a great example of this, and I think they are >really beautiful by airplane (at least aesthetically). > >I have no idea why these wouldn't grow in the Colima pools, but I don't know >the process. > >By the way, I've been "lurking" on this list for quite a while, as I've >recently discovered the area of biodynamics. Listening to the conversations >has very much inspired me to begin planning how to start my own biodynamic >growing. I was in Fair Oaks last night, just driving through, and stopped >in at the garden up there, on the Rudolph Steiner College campus. It was a >beautiful little oasis in the midst of gridlock, and except for the sound of >the traffic, I wouldn't have known I was just outside of Sacramento. > >I plan to start adding my voice to this list more often, if only to ask more >questions of those more experienced than me. > >Joel Dear Joel: Let me speculate here: I do not know if the salt of colima has a large population of microorganisms or not, but I have to assume that is not the case. In contrast to the conditions in San Fracisco; the Cuyutlan Lagoon in the coast of Colima has air temperatures ranging from 95 to 115 F. during the dry season with little cloud cover. Under these conditions the salineros most be able to evaporate and crystalized sea salt much faster than in the SF area. Thus allowing less time for a fermentation to occur and thus limiting the microorganisms count. I know they harvest salt from the crystalization pools every 24 hours. Further on, most algae and phitoplacton (potential C sources -food- for bacteria) thrive in water temperatures ranging 50-60 F, which are cooler than the mean temperature of Colima's seas during the salt production season (71.5 F). This is a widely known phenomena and the explanation why the cooler seas' nutrient density is much higher than the one available in the tropical seas. A condition which is evident by the clarity and visibility you get by diving in tropical waters. In cooler waters, even here in Colima, during the cooler season, you sometimes get a super-abundance growth of microorganisms, which can be quite toxic and are known as the "red tide". The question prevails though, for human nutrition and in our salt, do we want or not this microorganisms present ? It might be a good idea to make a cell count on salt cultures though and see if this can be used as a variable associated with salt quality. Thank for your ideas and welcome to the forum. Warm and tropical greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 21:28:58 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29337 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:28:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26682; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:23:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA02883 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:38:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.175] (pm3shep4-163-175.intrepid.net [209.190.163.175]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA32104 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:44:09 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:44:27 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Farming for the 20th Century Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3194 The following information on repelling deer was found in a Virginia Tech publication on strawberry production: >We borrowed an idea from the nursery/ornamental plants industry for >deer control: the repellency effect on deer of the >older strawberry fungicide, Thiram, still available in Virginia as >Thiram 65% wettable powder, labeled for use on >strawberries in Virginia as a fruit and foliage fungicide. Working >with our Extension Pesticide Coordinator, Dr. Mike >Weaver, we found a Thiram sprayable formulation still being >manufactured in 1995 by UCB Chemicals Corporation in >Georgia, distributed by Helena Chemicals Corporation, labeled in >1995 for strawberries in Virginia, available in 10-pound >bags. We used up to the labeled rate of 5 pounds/acre per >application, on an area where deer had browsed our Chandler >strawberries for several weeks. After the weekly spray program began >in early March, deer feeding totally ceased! Deer >apparently just do not like the sulfur-like flavor/taste/odor of >Thiram fungicide! In fact, their night feeding pattern in that >area completely ceased, even on the untreated control rows. >Evidently they left that area for better tasting pickings. Several >growers in other areas also report similar results from using Thiram >fungicide to repel deer. > >We stopped spraying after 3 applications and the deer never came >back and have not yet been back some 5 months later! >With Thiram fungicide, we hope in the future to break the cycle of >deer feeding in the fall on newly set plants and >browsing them to the ground, causing severe yield reductions from >lack of branch crowns development. We used >spreader-sticker with our Thiram sprays and followed the label >statements for use on strawberries. If you add Lorsban or >other labeled insecticide to one Thiram spray for control of >strawberry clippers, tarnished plant bugs, aphids or mites, be >careful to avoid bee kill by spraying late in the day after bees >return to the hives. Rates and timing for compliance with >worker safety, reentry and intervals between last application and >harvests are found in Virginia Cooperative Extension >Publication 456-420, Commercial Vegetable Recommendations for >Virginia, which is revised annually and includes strawberry >recommendations for the mid-Atlantic area. As I remember, Strawberries from Florida are the most toxic fruit on the grocery shelf. Oh, boy! -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 21:29:22 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29347 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:29:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26779; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:23:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10103 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:33:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip125.computer.net [140.186.252.125]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA27052 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:39:25 -0500 (EST) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:40:46 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Trademark of Biodynamics-Comments From Demeter Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id SAA10104 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3195 Dear Friends at BdNow, In the past weeks of discussion about the trademarking of "biodynamics" by Demeter, I have found it rather bizarre that no one spoke to Anne, emailed her, or in any way tried to present the Demeter perspective. I did so and here with her permission is her response to my query ("address the issue and explain what your (Demeter's) intentions are in regard to this trademark."): - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Demeter?s lack of participation in BDNow dialogue- Much of the BDNow communications are so focused on vilifying Demeter and related BD organizations that there seems little hope that any response to these same communications would be treated with any respect or dignity. Integrity is spoken of, but much of the Demeter denigration effort is full of incorrect statements and misconstrued information. It is with a certain amount of sadness that I read so much petty and insulting language. This can only weaken the trust of some in what is reported on this list. A more honest and mutually respectful dialogue would perhaps invite wider participation. Insults are not conducive to any positive outcome. -Demeter and BDA response to the issue- To date, and from the original giving of Steiner?s agricultural lectures, the word Biodynamic has been applied to a method of farming which has at its center the concept of soil treatment using compost infused with carefully prepared preparations and supplemented by Biodynamic field sprays which were to be stirred and sprayed directly onto fields as indicated by Steiner. The Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association (BDF&GA, aka BDA) and the Demeter Association, Inc. work to help any practitioner who inquires to understand and to develop these procedures in their own operation in acccordence with Steiner?s original indications. By registering the name ?Biodynamic?, --this-- method of agriculture can be made recognizable throughout the world by name association. BDF&GA first registered this word in 1991. When it was up for renewal in 1996, the idea originated within the BDF&GA Board to transfer registration to the Demeter Association, Inc. Demeter accepted, based on continuing support from BDF&GA. New practices such as the cosmic pipes and the horn clay applications are being used with seemingly dramatic results by two practitioners. Certainly in this new millenium even more new possibilities will be brought forth. Can the BDF&GA and Demeter know that the qualities of produce grown by these methods will be compatible with what we are able to understand and call Biodynamic as it has been known and trusted over the past 76 years? Can we feel confident in recommending use of a cosmic pipe which relies on the sub-nature forces of electro-magnetism to disseminate preps? Do we know what effect this device has on the electro-magnetic fields within the farm? Do we know what effect it has on the person using it? In the meantime we have not denied certification to anyone experimenting with a cosmic pipe, provided they continue to use the traditional methods of application. As for horn clay, there are also many questions. Information is needed from JPI (Josephine Porter Institute for Applied Biodynamics) which has been working with the concept since 1984. New methods require a certain period of testing by a broader base of experienced practitioners than one or two enthusiastic promoters. For some, the questions have not yet been sufficiently addressed. BDF&GA and Demeter Association stand somewhat as stewards where new methods are concerned. The task is not small and our responsibility to growers and consumers of Biodynamic products is taken seriously. We all share a responsibility to help Biodynamics work as a force for healing. This is where I will leave the matter. Anne Mendenhall, Director, Demeter Association, Inc. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 21:29:52 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29366 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:29:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26884; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:24:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10328 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:36:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip125.computer.net [140.186.252.125]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA27843 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:42:11 -0500 (EST) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:43:33 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: weeds Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3196 Yes Please to Allan & to Ian, THanks, Jane "TONY NELSON-SMITH" on 01/15/2000 10:58:05 AM Please respond to bdnow@envirolink.org To: bdnow@envirolink.org cc: Subject: Re: weeds Dear Ian - May I join the rapidly lengthening list of people who would like a copy of your weeds spreadsheet ? Would it save you a great deal of work if Allan could put it up, either on BDNow! or his website ? Thanls, Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 21:30:14 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29380 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:30:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26965; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:24:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10500 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:38:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.49] (r-67.169.alltel.net [166.102.67.169]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id RAA06030 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:44:08 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:52:14 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Salt Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3197 To: Guillermo Romero From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: salt from Colima Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: >>PS Perhaps lost in the envirolink crash: Sally Fallon suggests a full >>test of the Colima salt for trace elements before it is presented as >>a healthful sea salt. Current wisdom pre-supposes that WHITE SALT >>does not have the range of trace minerals that darker salts have. >>With Hugh's testimonial for the quality, you should have no trouble >>proving this empirically. >>-- Dear List Members, Sea salt mineral contents do vary. I feel sure that the French sea salt comes from a region where pollution is relatively high, and it wouldn't surprise me that algae or other contaminants contribute to the grey color. As I understand it the sun evaporated sea salts are sparkling white in areas such as the Carribean where the seas are very clear. Try to imagine evaporating sea salt at the mouth of the Rhine, the Mississippi, the Amazon or the Nile. Actually near the mouth of the Nile might be a fairly choice location to evaporate sea salt, though the Mediterranean in general is terribly polluted. However, I would venture to guess that the very clean appearance of the Colima salt is a mark of quality rather than otherwise. I've said it before and it's one of those things I find I have to keep repeating. Taste it. If the flavor is excellent, the quality is excellent. Taste and smell are two of the best methods of analysis known. I realize people have an ingrained idea that taste is subjective and untrustworthy, and that impersonal, mechanical analyses are objective and therefore trustworthy. I'm afraid that is a crock of fecal matter. Subjective and objective are one. What is really at issue is clarity, unobstructedness, of perception. Let me repeat a quote from Goethe that is on page 120 of my book: "Man himself, inasmuch as he makes use of his healthy senses, is the greatest and most exact physical apparatus; and it is the greatest evil of modern physics--that one has, as it were, detached the experiment from man and wishes to gain knowledge of nature merely through that which artificial instruments show." Best, Hugh Lovel > >Dear Allan: > >Now I am feeling like a fool, I frankly did not got your joke and when you >did not reply to my "what in the world are you talking about ?" post, I >just assumed you were seriously ill. I am sorry for my harsh response. > >Re. to the salt and following your comment on BD-Now about Sally not >liking the white color in it. I mentioned (avail in the Jan 14 BD-Now >archives) that this lack of color in the colima salt was probably due to >the fact that people here line their "pools" or "vats" with plastic and >use water from underground sea "springs" so there is little or no >soil/clay/sand associated with the salt. > >Latter you sent to BD-Now and to my address the followig post re Sally to >which I answered accordingly. I will reproduce it here since it did not >showed up in the list: > >********************** >>Dear BD Now!er- >> >>I've asked Sally Fallon, author of 'Nourishing Traditions,' to >>comment on how to determine the quality of sea salt. She has agreed >>to do this, and to answer any other questions anyone may have in >>regards to traditional nutrition, whole foods or keeping profits down >>on the farm. In return, I have (and without any relevant >>considerations otherwise) offered to post the press release for her >>new non-profit "The Weston A. Price Foundation," a continuation of >>her work with Price-Pottenger. >> >>Sally says: >> >>Re salt: My understanding is that the light grey color of the Celtic sea >>salt is a sign that it contains many trace minerals. It may also be due to >>the fact that the vats in which it is dry are clay-lined--which of course >>would also contribute minerals. When you refine salt and the minerals are >>removed, it becomes white. >> >>I would suggest that the Colima people have their salt analyzed for trace >>minerals. > >(I wrote) > >>From a nutriological stand point, which trace minerals are important to >>consider as important factors associated with the consumption of salt >>itself (Hugh mentioned something about one trace mineral or salt (not >>NaCl) balancing out the effects of the ionized Na in refined NaCl) and >>the nutritional considerations of salt as a nutrient carrier (ie. iodine). > >In this fashion, please ask, in her opinion, what trace mineral should I >analyze in the salt ? > >What she is saying above IMO is quite obvious, but not the specific human >nutrition associated with salt consumption, which she is not addressing at >this point. > >Could you please kindly ask her to provide references for the statements >she may give us. > >I think her offer to participate will be a rich opportunity to discuss her >statements about "traditional nutrition" in the light of both >Biodynamic-Anthroposophic and conventional nutriology. Please thank her >on my behalf for her willigness. > >Regards > >Guillermo Romero > >********************** > >As I said before this is a project that I am initiating on the side, there >is a lot of things to evaluate and consider before it becomes a reality. >But IMO it has good posibilities. I am also suggesting to do a complete >lab evaluation of the salt, not only in reference to its nutritive >components, but also screening for potential contaminants. That is why I >asked Hugh and Ms Fallon (by your intervention) for their recommendation >for doing the analyses. (what to look for). You know that althought I >consider Ms Fallon's writings worthwhile to analyse, I do have some doubts >about the seriousness of her statements, that is why I asked for her to >provide references. I did not meant to attack her or even question her >public position. > >I am interested in creating a good name and a faultless reputation for the >projects where I participate. Mexico as a country constantly sufers from >unjust attacks and manipulative press reports, specially in the US and >corresponding to unfair trade practices, that is why I am very sensitive >to this issues and will do everything in my power to prevent them, such as >writing an explanation and being carefull with my claims to those who may >in the future be business associates. > >I apologize again for my reaction and for my lack of understanding about >your joke, specially since my wife has just remainded me that I too, very >often, use the same tactics with my friends and associates. > >Also still your red faced friend. > > > > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 21:30:39 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29392 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:30:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA27074; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:24:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.gloryroad.net (mail.gloryroad.net [216.228.97.43]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA15792 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:43:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from wills (opop1-085.gloryroad.net [216.228.104.85]) by mail.gloryroad.net (Postfix) with SMTP id CB8EBFC81B for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:35:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38865F65.3C48@gloryroad.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:05:41 -0500 From: Will Hicks Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Off: weed spreadsheet References: <002001bf5ff7$038e9520$397711ce@siesta> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3198 Ian, One more weed spreadsheet please! Thanks, Will Hicks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 21:31:15 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29408 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:31:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA27183; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:25:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from svn.net (root@svn.net [167.160.200.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19405 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:31:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from chitra.com (pm2-071.svn.net [167.160.201.71]) by svn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14057 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:37:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3885F96D.3898F516@chitra.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:50:43 +0000 From: Steve Quirt Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Chitra Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: GMOs]] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------968D06C2A8FA698D45113650" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3199 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------968D06C2A8FA698D45113650 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------968D06C2A8FA698D45113650 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-POP3-Rcpt: quirts@svn.net Return-Path: Received: from svn.net (pm2-069.svn.net [167.160.201.69]) by svn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20380; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 11:29:16 -0800 Message-ID: <38821B5B.F4F84480@svn.net> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:26:24 -0700 From: lisa sommer Reply-To: lisee@svn.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "C. Helkenn" , Donna Tranter , Steve Quirt , Vivian Chenard Subject: [Fwd: GMOs] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3070B415CCFE5AC6E1748D3C" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3070B415CCFE5AC6E1748D3C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------3070B415CCFE5AC6E1748D3C Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="nsmail21" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="nsmail21" X-POP3-Rcpt: lisee@svn.net Return-Path: Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by svn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA01560 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 23:59:53 -0800 From: zenekar@sonic.net Received: (qmail 16423 invoked from network); 12 Jan 2000 07:57:15 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 12 Jan 2000 07:57:15 -0000 Received: from [208.201.231.73] (d65.pm2.sonic.net [208.201.229.65]) by prop.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA28598; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 23:55:28 -0800 X-envelope-info: X-Sender: zenekar@pop.sonic.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <006201bf5ba0$0c698480$0200005a@Laguna> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 23:56:48 -0800 To: *Concerned folks*:;, *Progressives:;, " *So.Co.Greens":; Subject: Re: GMOs X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 FWD: Quotation from the Manchester Guardian Weekly, a newspaper from England which we receive regularly because it contains real interational news and no ads.!: "Caterers have delivered Monsanto the final insult by banning genetically modified food from the GM giant's own staff canteen 'in response to concern raised by our customers'." Says it all, doesn't it?! - Jenny Blaker, Cotati --------------3070B415CCFE5AC6E1748D3C-- --------------968D06C2A8FA698D45113650-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 22:10:53 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA29919 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:10:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA05842; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:05:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05732 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:04:16 -0500 (EST) From: NEILLCO@aol.com Received: from NEILLCO@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.55.11d818b (4586) for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:09:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <55.11d818b.25b7d658@aol.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:09:12 EST Subject: Re: Welcome Back!! To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 146 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3200 I was off the list for two days. Wondered what had happened and glad its back! R.B. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 22:49:06 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00738 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:49:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14449; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:43:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from 450-2.midcoast.com.au (root@kmidc69-3.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13491 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-66.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.66]) by 450-2.midcoast.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA20521 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:35:01 +1100 Message-ID: <00ae01bf62f8$86fcf740$40431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: Hog-erators in the food garden Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:17:37 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3201 Allan, I would spray some BD fish emulsion/ manure concentrate(barrel compost) out over the area after the pigs have been through, so that the area would get the benefit of the preparations and help to compost the pig manure. Kind of like a sheet compost. That way you will get a balanced breakdown of the manure and it is just not raw on the plants. Cheers, Cheryl Kemp. -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, 20 January 2000 5:12 am Subject: Hog-erators in the food garden >I have to admit that I am still way behind in getting the garden >ready for FALL, let alone for SPRING... > >I've still got some radishes in the ground, and, in fact some >carrots, and theres probably 30 bed feet of flea beetle feeding >kholrabi frozen out there this morning. (Flea beetles overwinter in >the roots of cabbage-related plants.) > >I'm picking up a couple of feeder pigs on MOnday. I've very much like >to fence off a few of the annual crop beds of the garden at a time >and let the hogs work on them for a few days, in the Joel >Salatin-style. However, I have always heard that hog manure or >compost from it should never come in contact with human food or the >soil it is grown in. > >What say, my friends? Do these concerns about food safety really >apply to a couple of organically organically raised small pigs? >Would I error on the side of caution if I keep the hogs out of the >garden, even for this relatively short duration? (And, no no no, I >don't want to scoop up after them. ) Or is this continual drive for >multi-functional farm effeciency making me into my own enemy? > >Your comments/experiences appreciated. > >Thanks > >-Allan > >-- > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 22:49:32 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00751 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:49:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14606; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:43:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from 450-2.midcoast.com.au (root@kmidc69-3.ecopost.com.au [203.28.69.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13576 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:39:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from cherylke (kmidc67-66.ecopost.com.au [203.28.67.66]) by 450-2.midcoast.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA20539 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:35:20 +1100 Message-ID: <00b301bf62f8$920cff40$40431ccb@cherylke> From: "Cheryl Kemp" To: Subject: Re: peppering animals, many questions. Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:33:27 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3202 Dear Guillermo, This is what works for us in Australia - so see how you go in Mexico! After you have burnt your animal, (you need only burn the skin from the back of the animal) grind the ashes in a mortar and pestle for one hour. (Mother tincture) Then take one tablespoon of ash and one tabs of glucose powder or lactose powder (we can't seem to buy Lactose powder easily in Aust. now) and grind together for 3 minutes. 1x Then take 1 tablespoon of last lot, (1x) and add to 100 mls water in a jar with a lid. Shake or succuss for 3 minutes , 2x. Take 10 mls of this 2x mix and add to 90 mls water (you can use same jar - just leave 10 mls in jar of 2x and discard the rest) Succuss for 3 mins. (3x) Continue until you get to 6x. Add half water and half alcohol to the 10 mls of 5x. 6x. This is your stock mix of 6x potency. Label and keep. Now you need to take one drop of this and add to your spray tank (whatever size) shake and spray around the border of the area and in it if possible of the animals habitat. eg. If the rats are in the roof, then under the house and all around as well as where they get in. If you can dowse, you may like to check the potency required for the potentised peppers. Each place is different and also depends if BD preps have been applied to the land. In one success story here with Flying foxes, the BD people only needed 6x to keep the FF out, but the next door neighbours need 60 x as they had not used BD preps( It worked for them for a couple of nights, but then they sprayed chemicals on the fruit trees and the peppers stopped working! (The lady making the peppers dowsed for the right potency.) Once you have made up the potency it will keep forever. And if you make the 5x lot up with alcohol too, then you have a back up lot in case you drop the 6x ! Time to apply: There are many different thought on this. I like the idea of using the moon in the constellation eg. for animals I would use Moon in Scorpio and maybe spray it for the 2 -3 nights that it is in Scorpio. For insects I would do it in Taurus, and for weeds, the dominant time eg. root, flower etc.that is the dominant part of the weed. SO yes, the peppers will keep, even in the ash stage. We are working with homeopathy here and potencies seem to keep forever as far as I can work out. Best wishes, Cheryl Kemp. PS. Keep records of what you do, and timing etc, so we can build up a resource list. -----Original Message----- From: Guillermo Romero To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, 20 January 2000 5:10 am Subject: peppering animals, many questions. >The time has come !, I am getting ready for this weekend do the burning of the animal pests we are suffering here (skunk, armadillo, moles, opposum and mice). > >Recently a whole family of cats moved into my roofs and the mice have gone away. I am afraid this cats visit will not last long, my retrievers will not let that happen permanently. So, I was wondering if I should keep the ashes for latter, for when the mice return ? or if I should apply the peppers right away ?. > >I assume that the mortar grinding, is a sort of potensization (sp ?) and that I should apply the peppers as soon as I finish the 1 hour mortar grinding. am I correct ?, so if I save the ashes, can I do the potensization when I get ready for its use ? How should I store the ashes ? > >How are the peppers applied ?, the amount of ash is not going to be much and since I will do the burning using a propane torch (as Jim suggested to have a complete, non carbonized, combustion), there is not going to be wood ashes to make more bulk. Can I spray it with water ? if so should I stir this also for an hour?, instead of doing the mortar thing ? or should I use wood , not as fuel but in order to have more ashes to sprinkle directly ? if so, how much wood for how much skins ?. > >I will be gratefull for your prompt reply. > >Many thanks > > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 22:58:36 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00820 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:58:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA17178; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:52:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA14369 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:42:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from micron - 63.17.183.63 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:47:52 -0800 Message-ID: <004e01bf62f9$5056ae60$3fb7113f@micron> From: "Wells" To: References: Subject: Re: Stella based: "Gardening by the Moon 2000" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:09:45 -0800 Organization: Microsoft Corporation X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3203 Thanks. I received my calendar yesterday(Jan 18). ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 5:58 AM Subject: Stella based: "Gardening by the Moon 2000" > Here's a BD-related wonderful gift item that's arrived too late for anyone > to get by Christmas! > > I have several copies of a "Gardening by the Moon 2000" POSTER calendar > that is done by permaculturist and garden designer, Michael Littlewood. The > calendar is unbelieveabley beautiful in both design and color, is on very > heavy paper and measures approx 16x24 inches. (See a very poor picture of a > portion of this calendar poster at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/moon.jpg > . > > The nice thing about this calendar is that it lets you see the entire year > at a glance, so those patterns that Guillermo was inquiring about earlier > just sort of stand out. This calendar is also a thing of beauty; it will > certain attract attention wherever you hang it. > > The information on this calendar is sourced from Maria Thun, from the US > Stella Natura and from a book called "Varely Thomes' Millenium Moon > Planner." The back of the calendar is covered with very readable > information on how to use the calendar for planting, paying almost as much > attention to the position of Jupiter as to that of the Moon. (It's too bad > that all of this good information is on the BACK of a poster!) > > I have a limited number of these and, as I understand, they are gone now > for this year. However, I do have enough that if someone is interested in a > dozen or so for a regional group or for a bookstore I can probably work > with you. > > I have NOT had a chance to check this calendar against Stella or with Hugh > Courtney. Michale Littlewood, however, has a reputation for attention and > insight. The tasteful design of this calendar is witness to that. > > Price is $15 plus US Postage and mailing tube expense (I haven't checked > this out, but probably $4 total in the US) Overseas shipping will be more > expensive. > > Let me know soon on this before they all go to one source. > > Thnks > > -Allan Balliett > csa@claymont.org > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 23:22:12 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01220 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:22:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21783; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:16:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20969 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:11:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.101] (pm3shep2-163-101.intrepid.net [209.190.163.101]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA14614 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:16:50 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:16:45 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Trademark of Biodynamics-Comments From Demeter Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3204 >Dear Friends at BdNow, >In the past weeks of discussion about the trademarking of "biodynamics" by >Demeter, I have found it rather bizarre that no one spoke to Anne, emailed >her, or in any way tried to present the Demeter perspective. I did so and >here with her permission is her response to my query ("address the issue >and explain what your (Demeter's) intentions are in regard to this >trademark."): For the record: Demeter and Anne are now - - and always have been - - welcome to join this email group and to participate in this discussion at any time. For the record, weeks ago I called the BDA and asked Chuck how he and Demeter could be involved in this discussion. How many critical voices are there on this list compared to how many pairs of anxious and needful 'ears'? How very comfortable it must be to able to step away from the podium when communication and teaching require some actual effort. It is in part because of the common perception by biodynamic growers that they are 'unclean' in the opinion of the official biodynamic organizations that this email list of biodynamic growers helping biodynamic growers came into existence. It is partially because many biodynamic growers have felt that the official biodynamic organizations would prefer to let biodynamics ossify under a bushel than to share it with the 'rabble' that this discussion group remains lively. Wasn't it Scott Nearing who said 'When I fought for the absolute freedom of everyman, I just never dreamed that they would actually use it?' Bravo for the many faces of God. And God bless diversity. -Allan Balliett moderator BD Now! -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 23:22:25 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01229 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:22:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21855; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:16:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA21092 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:11:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.101] (pm3shep2-163-101.intrepid.net [209.190.163.101]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA14706 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:17:16 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004e01bf62f9$5056ae60$3fb7113f@micron> References: <004e01bf62f9$5056ae60$3fb7113f@micron> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:18:28 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Stella based: "Gardening by the Moon 2000" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3205 Thanks, Martha! I still have some of these calendars. If anyone has not received their calendar, they should let me know as soon as possible. Thanks for the follow-up -Allan >\ >Thanks. I received my calendar yesterday(Jan 18). >----- Original Message ----- >From: Allan Balliett >To: >Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 5:58 AM >Subject: Stella based: "Gardening by the Moon 2000" > > >> Here's a BD-related wonderful gift item that's arrived too late for anyone >> to get by Christmas! >> >> I have several copies of a "Gardening by the Moon 2000" POSTER calendar >> that is done by permaculturist and garden designer, Michael Littlewood. >The >> calendar is unbelieveabley beautiful in both design and color, is on very >> heavy paper and measures approx 16x24 inches. (See a very poor picture of >a >> portion of this calendar poster at http://www.igg.com/bdnow/books/moon.jpg >> . >> >> The nice thing about this calendar is that it lets you see the entire year >> at a glance, so those patterns that Guillermo was inquiring about earlier >> just sort of stand out. This calendar is also a thing of beauty; it will >> certain attract attention wherever you hang it. >> >> The information on this calendar is sourced from Maria Thun, from the US >> Stella Natura and from a book called "Varely Thomes' Millenium Moon >> Planner." The back of the calendar is covered with very readable > > information on how to use the calendar for planting, paying almost as much >> attention to the position of Jupiter as to that of the Moon. (It's too bad >> that all of this good information is on the BACK of a poster!) >> >> I have a limited number of these and, as I understand, they are gone now >> for this year. However, I do have enough that if someone is interested in >a >> dozen or so for a regional group or for a bookstore I can probably work >> with you. >> >> I have NOT had a chance to check this calendar against Stella or with Hugh >> Courtney. Michale Littlewood, however, has a reputation for attention and >> insight. The tasteful design of this calendar is witness to that. >> >> Price is $15 plus US Postage and mailing tube expense (I haven't checked >> this out, but probably $4 total in the US) Overseas shipping will be more >> expensive. >> >> Let me know soon on this before they all go to one source. >> >> Thnks >> >> -Allan Balliett >> csa@claymont.org >> -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 19 23:32:12 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01332 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:32:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA23216; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:25:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA22187 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:18:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.101] (pm3shep2-163-101.intrepid.net [209.190.163.101]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA15940 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:24:19 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <388618FA.8611EB92@erols.com> References: <388618FA.8611EB92@erols.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:25:57 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Hog-erators in the food garden Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3206 The IPM lady told me last spring to watch in particular for any native MUSTARDS that may be near the garden. They are notorious for harboring flea beetles. -Allan >Allan: > >This is good news, learning about where my flea beetle problem comes >from! > >I was INUNDATED with flea beetles last year. Turns out, I caused my own >problem - overwintering kale (and radishes) and cabbage - which didn't >make it, anyway! > >Thanks for that note - > >Robert. -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 03:21:31 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03884 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 03:21:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA14586; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 03:13:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA10038 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 01:30:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d186.infoserve.net [199.175.157.186]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id WAA17450 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:40:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004101bf6311$8cf7b0e0$ba9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Farming for the 20th Century Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:41:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3207 Dear Allan, I had tried Thiram here in Vancouver also for deer control to prevent them from eating peoples' favourite tulips, etc. I had some mixed results. Perhaps the deer here are more persistant! M. -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 6:32 PM Subject: Farming for the 20th Century >The following information on repelling deer was found in a Virginia >Tech publication on strawberry production: > >>We borrowed an idea from the nursery/ornamental plants industry for >>deer control: the repellency effect on deer of the >>older strawberry fungicide, Thiram, still available in Virginia as >>Thiram 65% wettable powder, labeled for use on >>strawberries in Virginia as a fruit and foliage fungicide. Working >>with our Extension Pesticide Coordinator, Dr. Mike >>Weaver, we found a Thiram sprayable formulation still being >>manufactured in 1995 by UCB Chemicals Corporation in >>Georgia, distributed by Helena Chemicals Corporation, labeled in >>1995 for strawberries in Virginia, available in 10-pound >>bags. We used up to the labeled rate of 5 pounds/acre per >>application, on an area where deer had browsed our Chandler >>strawberries for several weeks. After the weekly spray program began >>in early March, deer feeding totally ceased! Deer >>apparently just do not like the sulfur-like flavor/taste/odor of >>Thiram fungicide! In fact, their night feeding pattern in that >>area completely ceased, even on the untreated control rows. >>Evidently they left that area for better tasting pickings. Several >>growers in other areas also report similar results from using Thiram >>fungicide to repel deer. >> >>We stopped spraying after 3 applications and the deer never came >>back and have not yet been back some 5 months later! >>With Thiram fungicide, we hope in the future to break the cycle of >>deer feeding in the fall on newly set plants and >>browsing them to the ground, causing severe yield reductions from >>lack of branch crowns development. We used >>spreader-sticker with our Thiram sprays and followed the label >>statements for use on strawberries. If you add Lorsban or >>other labeled insecticide to one Thiram spray for control of >>strawberry clippers, tarnished plant bugs, aphids or mites, be >>careful to avoid bee kill by spraying late in the day after bees >>return to the hives. Rates and timing for compliance with >>worker safety, reentry and intervals between last application and >>harvests are found in Virginia Cooperative Extension >>Publication 456-420, Commercial Vegetable Recommendations for >>Virginia, which is revised annually and includes strawberry >>recommendations for the mid-Atlantic area. > > >As I remember, Strawberries from Florida are the most toxic fruit on >the grocery shelf. Oh, boy! > >-Allan >-- > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 10:47:00 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10067 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:46:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07586; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:35:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06404 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:33:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.102] (pm3shep2-163-102.intrepid.net [209.190.163.102]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA06754 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 07:28:53 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 07:29:29 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Fwd: Plants for a Future searchable database Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3208 >From: "1Earth Media" <1earth@powerup.com.au> >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:00:10 +1000 >Subject: Plants for a Future searchable database >Reply-to: 1earth@powerup.com.au >Priority: normal > >Thanks to the hard work of Rich Morris at Plants for a Future, >(pfaf@scs.leeds.ac.uk) the PERMACULT.COM.AU site is now the >Australian mirror for that fantastic searchable plants database. > >To view the database, go to http://www.permacult.com.au/pfaf.html > >Please bookmark that page, and webmasters are welcome to link to >that page to access the database. >Free hosting was not an option for the database here in Australia >due to the cgi scripts involved, so if you can contribute to the costs >of the bandwidth that you use whilst accessing the database, simply >by clicking the sponsors banner on the way in, we can continue the >service. > >Best regards all, >Marcus > > > Australian Permaculture Information & Design Services > http://www.permacult.com.au > PO Box 163, Noosa Heads, Qld, Australia, 4567 -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 10:47:00 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10068 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:46:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07696; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:35:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06415 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.102] (pm3shep2-163-102.intrepid.net [209.190.163.102]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA06767 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 07:29:00 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004101bf6311$8cf7b0e0$ba9dafc7@333> References: <004101bf6311$8cf7b0e0$ba9dafc7@333> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 07:32:44 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Farming for the 20th Century Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3209 Dear Michael - Please clear my apparent ignorance here. I put this up (under the title above) because I thought it was so very retro. I also had the impression that Thiram may have been taken off the market. I'm not really comfortable with the idea of adding 'more' fungicide, even if it does repel deer. (hmm, maybe if it would KILL THEM...sorry, just kidding...) Is Thiram an acceptable fungicide to use on a biological farm? Thanks -Allan >Dear Allan, > > I had tried Thiram here in Vancouver also for deer control to prevent them >from eating peoples' favourite tulips, etc. I had some mixed results. >Perhaps the deer here are more persistant! M. >-----Original Message----- >From: Allan Balliett >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 6:32 PM >Subject: Farming for the 20th Century > > >>The following information on repelling deer was found in a Virginia >>Tech publication on strawberry production: >> >>>We borrowed an idea from the nursery/ornamental plants industry for >>>deer control: the repellency effect on deer of the >>>older strawberry fungicide, Thiram, still available in Virginia as >>>Thiram 65% wettable powder, labeled for use on >>>strawberries in Virginia as a fruit and foliage fungicide. Working >>>with our Extension Pesticide Coordinator, Dr. Mike >>>Weaver, we found a Thiram sprayable formulation still being >>>manufactured in 1995 by UCB Chemicals Corporation in >>>Georgia, distributed by Helena Chemicals Corporation, labeled in >>>1995 for strawberries in Virginia, available in 10-pound >>>bags. We used up to the labeled rate of 5 pounds/acre per >>>application, on an area where deer had browsed our Chandler >>>strawberries for several weeks. After the weekly spray program began >>>in early March, deer feeding totally ceased! Deer >>>apparently just do not like the sulfur-like flavor/taste/odor of >>>Thiram fungicide! In fact, their night feeding pattern in that >>>area completely ceased, even on the untreated control rows. >>>Evidently they left that area for better tasting pickings. Several >>>growers in other areas also report similar results from using Thiram >>>fungicide to repel deer. >>> >>>We stopped spraying after 3 applications and the deer never came >>>back and have not yet been back some 5 months later! >>>With Thiram fungicide, we hope in the future to break the cycle of >>>deer feeding in the fall on newly set plants and >>>browsing them to the ground, causing severe yield reductions from >>>lack of branch crowns development. We used >>>spreader-sticker with our Thiram sprays and followed the label >>>statements for use on strawberries. If you add Lorsban or >>>other labeled insecticide to one Thiram spray for control of >>>strawberry clippers, tarnished plant bugs, aphids or mites, be >>>careful to avoid bee kill by spraying late in the day after bees >>>return to the hives. Rates and timing for compliance with >>>worker safety, reentry and intervals between last application and >>>harvests are found in Virginia Cooperative Extension >>>Publication 456-420, Commercial Vegetable Recommendations for >>>Virginia, which is revised annually and includes strawberry >>>recommendations for the mid-Atlantic area. >> >> >>As I remember, Strawberries from Florida are the most toxic fruit on >>the grocery shelf. Oh, boy! >> >>-Allan >>-- >> >> -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 10:50:51 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10160 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:50:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08242; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:39:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07630 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:35:21 -0500 (EST) From: HMSTDFRMS@aol.com Received: from HMSTDFRMS@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.3a.49accb (304) for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 06:46:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3a.49accb.25b84fa5@aol.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 06:46:45 EST Subject: Re: Off: weed spreadsheet To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3210 Ian, One more weed spreadsheet please! Thanks, Linda Homestead Farms From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 11:00:04 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10471 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:00:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10451; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:53:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09077 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:44:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.75.40] (du-148-233-75-40.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FON00FNE3P6OG@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:15:09 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:16:25 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Trademark of Biodynamics-Comments From Demeter In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3211 >Dear Friends at BdNow, >In the past weeks of discussion about the trademarking of "biodynamics" by >Demeter, I have found it rather bizarre that no one spoke to Anne, emailed >her, or in any way tried to present the Demeter perspective. I did so and >here with her permission is her response to my query ("address the issue >and explain what your (Demeter's) intentions are in regard to this >trademark."): >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dear Jane: Many thanks for your good sense to ask for Ms. Mendenhall's point of view. This adds sense and perspective to the discusion, I hope we could have her participation in a constant basis. No need to take part in bitter arguments; a leveled and reasoned opinion will always be helpful for everyone to make their own minds. Warm greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 11:00:15 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10482 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:00:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10497; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:53:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09562 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:47:14 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.34.6c987d (4266) for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 06:44:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34.6c987d.25b84f20@aol.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 06:44:32 EST Subject: Re: Trademark of Biodynamics-Comments From Demeter To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3212 In a message dated 1/19/00 9:29:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, jsherry@computer.net writes: Thanks, jsherry - << As for horn clay, there are also many questions. Information is needed from JPI (Josephine Porter Institute for Applied Biodynamics) which has been working with the concept since 1984. What information? And if they have been working with it since 1984 why no info. From personal communication with Hugh Lovel ( who I greatly respect), he said that "I experimented with Horn Clay a dozen years ago & shared my sense of things with Greg Willis 3 or so years ago and he ran with it" << New methods require a certain period of testing by a broader base of experienced practitioners than one or two enthusiastic promoters. For some, the questions have not yet been sufficiently addressed. BDF&GA and Demeter Association stand somewhat as stewards where new methods are concerned. The task is not small and our responsibility to growers and consumers of Biodynamic products is taken seriously. We all share a responsibility to help Biodynamics work as a force for healing. This is where I will leave the matter. Anne Mendenhall, Director, Demeter Association, Inc. >> My Comments: Interesting wording in that last pargraph. What new methods have been been approved by Demeter in the last, say 20 years and is there a publicly defined process for getting new methods approved? I'd like to see participation by Demeter and the BDA on this group so we can all work together as a force for healing. I appreciate the sharing of knowledge I find here. Dan Lynch, Long Mountain Vineyard From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 11:24:00 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11091 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:23:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14995; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:17:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.txcyber.com (root@mail.txcyber.com [205.140.147.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14203 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:14:04 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp391.cy-net.net [208.21.195.200]) by mail.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA32340 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:19:38 -0600 Message-Id: <200001201619.KAA32340@mail.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:16:30 -0600 Subject: Re: Stella /Martha, uh oh Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <004e01bf62f9$5056ae60$3fb7113f@micron> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3213 Allan, it was another 'Wells' who ordered the Stella Natura calendar, I haven't ordered mine yet. Thanks for the 'heads up'! Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 11:38:07 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11406 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:38:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17582; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:31:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17326 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:30:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-194.s194.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.194] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12BHHI-0003IN-00; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:05:32 -0500 Message-ID: <38870871.E8F3CF78@erols.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:06:57 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Farming for the 20th Century References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3214 Allan wrote: Unfortunately, this toxicity is followed closely by ice cream, butter, and whole milk (non-organic, of course!). Fats tend to concentrate and hold pesticides; and milk products are loaded with fats. R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 12:07:31 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12363 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:07:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21221; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:55:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from enif.involved.com ([206.136.47.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20939 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:53:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from SyGate ([206.136.47.50]) by enif.involved.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61049U4500L450S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:57:02 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000120085912.009295e0@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:59:12 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Comments From Demeter In-Reply-To: <34.6c987d.25b84f20@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3215 ><< New methods require a certain period of testing by a broader base of > experienced practitioners than one or two enthusiastic promoters. For > some, the questions have not yet been sufficiently addressed. > Anne Mendenhall, Director, Demeter Association, Inc. >> Surely new ideas should be tested and examined. But what it the process for doing so? Are other ideas treated the same way? For example, I dont see that RS described potentizing the preps. Yet many practioners (eg. JPL and Peter Proctor) do so, evidentally with the approval of BDA. Is it because these practioners are part of the "old BD" network? Is it based on other research, eg. Kolisko? Was there ever a documented process by which this decision was made to allow this change? Other comment >Can we feel confident in recommending use of a cosmic pipe which relies on >the sub-nature forces of electro-magnetism to disseminate preps? Do we >know what effect this device has on the electro-magnetic fields within the >farm? Do we know what effect it has on the person using it? What is a sub-nature force? Why is EM in this category? Consider how EM is integrated into the natural world. Pizoelectricity is part of how bones orient and grow themselves in response to stress. Callahan's interesting work on insect senses demonstrated their amazing reception of coherent IR radiation. Not to mention his work on paramagnetism and alignment with earth ley lines. What is the operating principle of homeopathy -- could propagation of these forces be considered sub-nature? Yet the principle of homeopathy seems closely connected to the principle of the ag preps. So what is "sub-nature" and who made that decision? I welcome BDA to respond and I dont think the request for dialog is mean spirited. ==================== David Robison Stellar Processes 1033 SW Yamhill Suite 405 Portland, OR 97205 (503) 827-8336 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 13:10:05 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14190 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:10:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01511; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:58:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01418 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:57:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.67.49] (r-66.161.alltel.net [166.102.66.161]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id GAA29862; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 06:56:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:04:28 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Trademark of Biodynamics-Comments From Demeter Cc: Demeter@baldcom.net Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3216 Dear Jane, Anne, List Readers, In short, the issue of placing the term biodynamic in the public domain remains un-attended to. Briefly, that won't work. Regards, Hugh Lovel >Dear Friends at BdNow, >In the past weeks of discussion about the trademarking of "biodynamics" by >Demeter, I have found it rather bizarre that no one spoke to Anne, emailed >her, or in any way tried to present the Demeter perspective. I did so and >here with her permission is her response to my query ("address the issue >and explain what your (Demeter's) intentions are in regard to this >trademark."): >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >-Demeter?s lack of participation in BDNow dialogue- > >Much of the BDNow communications are so focused on vilifying Demeter and >related BD organizations that there seems little hope that any response to >these same communications would be treated with any respect or dignity. >Integrity is spoken of, but much of the Demeter denigration effort is full >of incorrect statements and misconstrued information. > >It is with a certain amount of sadness that I read so much petty and >insulting language. This can only weaken the trust of some in what is >reported on this list. A more honest and mutually respectful dialogue >would perhaps invite wider participation. Insults are not conducive to any >positive outcome. > >-Demeter and BDA response to the issue- > >To date, and from the original giving of Steiner?s agricultural lectures, >the word Biodynamic has been applied to a method of farming which has at >its center the concept of soil treatment using compost infused with >carefully prepared preparations and supplemented by Biodynamic field sprays >which were to be stirred and sprayed directly onto fields as indicated by >Steiner. The Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association (BDF&GA, aka >BDA) and the Demeter Association, Inc. work to help any practitioner who >inquires to understand and to develop these procedures in their own >operation in acccordence with Steiner?s original indications. > >By registering the name ?Biodynamic?, --this-- method of agriculture can be >made recognizable throughout the world by name association. BDF&GA first >registered this word in 1991. When it was up for renewal in 1996, the idea >originated within the BDF&GA Board to transfer registration to the Demeter >Association, Inc. Demeter accepted, based on continuing support from >BDF&GA. > >New practices such as the cosmic pipes and the horn clay applications are >being used with seemingly dramatic results by two practitioners. Certainly >in this new millenium even more new possibilities will be brought forth. >Can the BDF&GA and Demeter know that the qualities of produce grown by >these methods will be compatible with what we are able to understand and >call Biodynamic as it has been known and trusted over the past 76 years? >Can we feel confident in recommending use of a cosmic pipe which relies on >the sub-nature forces of electro-magnetism to disseminate preps? Do we >know what effect this device has on the electro-magnetic fields within the >farm? Do we know what effect it has on the person using it? In the >meantime we have not denied certification to anyone experimenting with a >cosmic pipe, provided they continue to use the traditional methods of >application. As for horn clay, there are also many questions. Information >is needed from JPI (Josephine Porter Institute for Applied Biodynamics) >which has been working with the concept since 1984. > >New methods require a certain period of testing by a broader base of >experienced practitioners than one or two enthusiastic promoters. For >some, the questions have not yet been sufficiently addressed. BDF&GA and >Demeter Association stand somewhat as stewards where new methods are >concerned. The task is not small and our responsibility to growers and >consumers of Biodynamic products is taken seriously. We all share a >responsibility to help Biodynamics work as a force for healing. > >This is where I will leave the matter. > >Anne Mendenhall, Director, Demeter Association, Inc. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 13:20:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14502 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:20:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03573; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:13:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03441 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:12:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d159.infoserve.net [199.175.157.159]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA29115 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:22:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000a01bf6373$926d78e0$9f9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Farming for the 20th Century Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:23:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3217 Not in the 21st century, Allan. I had not used it on my property, but, with a few folks who were more concerned about flowers than organic farming. One problem was that it did not persist very well especially when it rained. M. -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, January 20, 2000 7:45 AM Subject: Re: Farming for the 20th Century >Dear Michael - > >Please clear my apparent ignorance here. I put this up (under the >title above) because I thought it was so very retro. I also had the >impression that Thiram may have been taken off the market. I'm not >really comfortable with the idea of adding 'more' fungicide, even if >it does repel deer. (hmm, maybe if it would KILL THEM...sorry, just >kidding...) > >Is Thiram an acceptable fungicide to use on a biological farm? > >Thanks -Allan > >>Dear Allan, >> >> I had tried Thiram here in Vancouver also for deer control to prevent them >>from eating peoples' favourite tulips, etc. I had some mixed results. >>Perhaps the deer here are more persistant! M. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Allan Balliett >>To: bdnow@envirolink.org >>Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 6:32 PM >>Subject: Farming for the 20th Century >> >> >>>The following information on repelling deer was found in a Virginia >>>Tech publication on strawberry production: >>> >>>>We borrowed an idea from the nursery/ornamental plants industry for >>>>deer control: the repellency effect on deer of the >>>>older strawberry fungicide, Thiram, still available in Virginia as >>>>Thiram 65% wettable powder, labeled for use on >>>>strawberries in Virginia as a fruit and foliage fungicide. Working >>>>with our Extension Pesticide Coordinator, Dr. Mike >>>>Weaver, we found a Thiram sprayable formulation still being >>>>manufactured in 1995 by UCB Chemicals Corporation in >>>>Georgia, distributed by Helena Chemicals Corporation, labeled in >>>>1995 for strawberries in Virginia, available in 10-pound >>>>bags. We used up to the labeled rate of 5 pounds/acre per >>>>application, on an area where deer had browsed our Chandler >>>>strawberries for several weeks. After the weekly spray program began >>>>in early March, deer feeding totally ceased! Deer >>>>apparently just do not like the sulfur-like flavor/taste/odor of >>>>Thiram fungicide! In fact, their night feeding pattern in that >>>>area completely ceased, even on the untreated control rows. >>>>Evidently they left that area for better tasting pickings. Several >>>>growers in other areas also report similar results from using Thiram >>>>fungicide to repel deer. >>>> >>>>We stopped spraying after 3 applications and the deer never came >>>>back and have not yet been back some 5 months later! >>>>With Thiram fungicide, we hope in the future to break the cycle of >>>>deer feeding in the fall on newly set plants and >>>>browsing them to the ground, causing severe yield reductions from >>>>lack of branch crowns development. We used >>>>spreader-sticker with our Thiram sprays and followed the label >>>>statements for use on strawberries. If you add Lorsban or >>>>other labeled insecticide to one Thiram spray for control of >>>>strawberry clippers, tarnished plant bugs, aphids or mites, be >>>>careful to avoid bee kill by spraying late in the day after bees >>>>return to the hives. Rates and timing for compliance with >>>>worker safety, reentry and intervals between last application and >>>>harvests are found in Virginia Cooperative Extension >>>>Publication 456-420, Commercial Vegetable Recommendations for >>>>Virginia, which is revised annually and includes strawberry >>>>recommendations for the mid-Atlantic area. >>> >>> >>>As I remember, Strawberries from Florida are the most toxic fruit on >>>the grocery shelf. Oh, boy! >>> >>>-Allan >>>-- >>> >>> > >-- > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 13:51:32 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15281 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:51:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06915; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:40:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06314 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:35:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.75.40] (du-148-233-75-40.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FON002SZ37I3K@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:04:34 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:05:17 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: peppering animals, many questions. In-reply-to: <00b301bf62f8$920cff40$40431ccb@cherylke> X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id NAA06319 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3218 >Dear Guillermo, >This is what works for us in Australia - so see how you go in Mexico! > >After you have burnt your animal, (you need only burn the skin from the back >of the animal) grind the ashes in a mortar and pestle for one hour. >(Mother tincture) >Then take one tablespoon of ash and one tabs of glucose powder or lactose >powder (we can't seem to buy Lactose powder easily in Aust. now) and grind >together for 3 minutes. 1x > >Then take 1 tablespoon of last lot, (1x) and add to 100 mls water in a jar >with a lid. >Shake or succuss for 3 minutes , 2x. > >Take 10 mls of this 2x mix and add to 90 mls water (you can use same jar - >just leave 10 mls in jar of 2x and discard the rest) Succuss for 3 mins. >(3x) > >Continue until you get to 6x. Add half water and half alcohol to the 10 mls >of 5x. >6x. This is your stock mix of 6x potency. Label and keep. > >Now you need to take one drop of this and add to your spray tank (whatever >size) shake and spray around the border of the area and in it if possible of >the animals habitat. eg. If the rats are in the roof, then under the house >and all around as well as where they get in. > >If you can dowse, you may like to check the potency required for the >potentised peppers. Each place is different and also depends if BD preps >have been applied to the land. >In one success story here with Flying foxes, the BD people only needed 6x to >keep the FF out, but the next door neighbours need 60 x as they had not used >BD preps( It worked for them for a couple of nights, but then they sprayed >chemicals on the fruit trees and the peppers stopped working! (The lady >making the peppers dowsed for the right potency.) > >Once you have made up the potency it will keep forever. And if you make the >5x lot up with alcohol too, then you have a back up lot in case you drop the >6x ! > >Time to apply: There are many different thought on this. I like the idea >of using the moon in the constellation eg. for animals I would use Moon in >Scorpio and maybe spray it for the 2 -3 nights that it is in Scorpio. For >insects I would do it in Taurus, and for weeds, the dominant time eg. root, >flower etc.that is the dominant part of the weed. >SO yes, the peppers will keep, even in the ash stage. We are working with >homeopathy here and potencies seem to keep forever as far as I can work out. >Best wishes, >Cheryl Kemp. > >PS. Keep records of what you do, and timing etc, so we can build up a >resource list. > Dear Cheryl: Many thanks for the information provided. Since the "organic" movement has its origins in temperate climates (Europe/US) I have found a great deal of inspiration and information from Australia that is applicable to the semiarid, semitropical, multicultural conditions we have here. Bill Mollison, Peter Proctor, Alex Podolinsky and P.A. Yeomans, have made the difference for me, so that I am specially thankfull for your advice and recommendations. I will experiment with both the direct application of ashes and the homeopathic potencies. Last year, thing work but in the wrong direction and I ended up with a mice infestation shortly after I applied a diluted pepper. Mr Garder and H. Lovel called my attention to the fact that this was probably due to using a wrong potency and said something like one potency repels, the next one up/down attracts. (I am probably misinterpreting or simplifying things here) I am not a great dowser, but will do my best and will follow my intuition. This animal peppering stuff sounds simple enough but as they said for agriculture in general: "Agriculture is an easy subject that anyone can learn in 15 easy lessons, the only problem is that every lesson lasts a whole year" . I keep a log book, but as you rightly said, we all would have to build the knowledge on this specific topic. Many thanks and warm greetings (mate !) Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 14:59:01 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17376 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:59:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAB16027; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:52:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15667 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:50:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.50.58.58] (A57.reach.net [204.50.58.88]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA15032 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:56:59 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:56:59 -0500 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Re: Comments From Demeter Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3219 >Consider how EM is integrated into the natural world. Pizoelectricity is >part of how bones orient and grow themselves in response to stress. >Callahan's interesting work on insect senses demonstrated their amazing >reception of coherent IR radiation. Not to mention his work on >paramagnetism and alignment with earth ley lines. What is the operating >principle of homeopathy -- could propagation of these forces be considered >sub-nature? Yet the principle of homeopathy seems closely connected to the >principle of the ag preps. So what is "sub-nature" and who made that >decision? >David Robison Alright...let's set to work on something...if we're going to understand this material better (and I want to), it's time to hit the books and journals. So, what authors? research papers? layman's texts etc. would people recommend for starting to wrestle with things which obviously have to be considered...like pizoelectricity, IR bandwiths, paramagnetism, fractal theory...in all the other energies which are only beginning to be probed and prodded. I've seen some now and again (if I can find one that really made me think last year, I'll post it)...but now that Winter has finally set in up here (we've been snowless until today: not the Great White North people imagine!), I has the time and drive to start propelling my way into this kind of material. And I hope others on the list are too. Any recommendations? Cheers, Geoff Heinricks Prince Edward County, Ontario From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 15:18:11 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA17692 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:18:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA17736; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:06:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17329 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:03:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([210.55.144.27]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000120200802.ZWBJ3144.mta3-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:08:02 +1300 Message-ID: <38876B26.5A17@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:09:35 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNOW Subject: Demeter comments Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3220 What is there to approve or disapprove about horn clay. All one does is put clay in a cow horn. What is poisonous or damaging about that? Is anyone forbidden Demeter registration for using it? > which has at > its center the concept of soil treatment using compost infused with > carefully prepared preparations and supplemented by Biodynamic field sprays > which were to be stirred and sprayed directly onto fields as indicated by > Steiner. The Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association (BDF&GA, aka > BDA) and the Demeter Association, Inc. work to help any practitioner who > inquires to understand and to develop these procedures in their own > operation in acccordence with Steiner?s original indications. > This is the sort of Saturnine statement which binds and holds Biodynamics to the past. The course was a start, and what Steiner said in that course is far more than what most people even see, so we have issues of interpretation here and then we have the fact that the course was only a beginning. Using homeopathy for instance was suggested in the course. So if the literalists have control, then BD is stagnate at the 1924 level. In this case another BD movement of the 21 century is inevitable, and in fact has already started. The BDA and Demeter will have to be left to guard their diamond, while humanity moves on. As for testing BD produce quality. Is this not what crystallisation and chromatography are for?????? I find it a tad erksome that one grower can do little more than apply stirred 500 once in the season and be Demeter registered and another applies potentised preps regularly, uses peppers, treated composts and ensures good mineral balances, and soil management and they can not. I look around my district and see who is missing out. BioGro (organic mark) is everywhere and Demeter almost non existant. I suggest if Anne is concerned about what people say on this list re Demeter and BDAs then it would be better for 'them' to take part, instead of arrogantly sitting in their ivory tower, while the masses clamber revolution in the square below. Yes it will mean meeting the sweaty masses and Yes it will mean being acccountable and Yes it will mean moving on and changing with the needs of the time, and it might also mean they have a relevant future. re EM forces. Good on you Hugh, yet another BD fanaticism revealed. Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 16:53:59 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20420 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:53:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00195; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:48:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29993 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:46:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.50.58.58] (A47.reach.net [204.50.58.78]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA30396 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:53:10 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:53:10 -0500 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Unsung energies & signals.... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id QAA29995 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3221 Here is the piece last year that finally changed my wavering about scientific truths and the silly blindness and dogmatic narrowness we are all too guilty of. Now at least I'll explore and probe and prod something before dismissing it out of hand. Can't seem to locate the web address, but someone on the list will probably be able to locate with the clues provided. I saw the original reference to this in a Canadian newspaper, then tracked down the following abstract: [Image] Plants Send SOS When Caterpillars Bite [Corn earworm on immature cotton boll.] By emitting chemical distress signals, some corn, cotton, and tobacco plants can summon tiny parasitic wasps to rescue them from hungry caterpillars like the tobacco budworm and corn earworm. Breeding crop varieties specifically for their wasp-calling traits is of keen interest to scientists seeking ways to reduce insecticide use. But until recently, researchers believed that plants use the same SOS distress signal--no matter what the attacker. [See "Beneficials Are Money in the Bank," Agricultural Research, February 1993, pp. 20-22.] Now, a team of scientists has proven otherwise by showing that plants actually emit signals specific to the caterpillar pest attacking them. By releasing blends of 10 to 12 different chemical compounds called volatiles, plants can quickly and accurately communicate their attacker's identity to friendly parasitic wasps--a finding that could improve their use in integrated pest management programs. This chemical tête-à-tête "is a much more sophisticated system than we ever suspected," says University of Georgia graduate student Consuelo DeMoraes. She conducted the study under the direction of Agricultural Research Service entomologist W. Joe Lewis and his colleague, ARS chemist James H. Tumlinson. They reported the finding in the June 1998 issue of Nature. Before their work, "it had not been shown scientifically that plants could send specific information," says Lewis. He is at ARS' Insect Biology and Population Management Research Laboratory in Tifton, Georgia. Specificity is key to survival of both the plant and the wasps, he adds. For example, Cardiochiles nigriceps wasps can only reproduce using tobacco budworms as hosts for their brood. In fact, the finicky wasp will ignore plants signaling attack by the budworm's close relative, the corn earworm--a pest with its own natural enemies. By releasing a large, aromatic plume into the air, plants not only help their wasp allies quickly find them, they also tell the wasp who their attacker is. This helps the wasp avoid wasting precious energy. "Without a specific signal from the plant, the parasitoid might otherwise spend all its time tracking false cues," says Lewis. "It's like finding a needle in a haystack. It has to find this one particular host in order to reproduce." In field trials at Tifton, scientists observed that C. nigriceps wasps more often flew to plants signaling attack by tobacco budworms than to those pestered by corn earworms. In experiments with tobacco, tobacco budworm-infested plants accounted for 164 out of 198 total wasp visits. In separate experiments, the scientists also monitored plants whose leaves had been chewed by the caterpillars and subsequently removed. This eliminated the possibility of the wasps' homing-in on chemical cues in the caterpillars' saliva or feces, rather than on the plants' signals. As before, C. nigriceps zeroed-in on the tobacco budworm-damaged plants. This happened 32 of 48 times. The scientists also ran a chemical analysis of the plants' signals using a special glass sleeve and gas chromatography techniques. This showed consistent differences in concentrations of volatile compounds emanating from the plants, depending on which caterpillar pest had attacked them. Lewis is also monitoring the effects of too much nitrogen on the signaling capacity of cotton plants. "You can select varieties for their inherent ability to defend themselves," he says. "But you also have to know how to manage them so that trait is expressed."--By Jan Suszkiw, Agricultural Research Service Information Staff. W. Joe Lewis is at the USDA-ARS Insect Biology and Population Management Research Laboratory, P.O. Box 748, Tifton, GA 31793; phone (912) 387-2348, fax (912) 382-9467. "Managing Manure Nitrogen To Curb Odors " was published in the October 1998 issue of Agricultural Research magazine. Click here to see this issue's table of contents. Back to Press Release List From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 18:39:21 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22241 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:39:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA11613; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:33:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from www0y.netaddress.usa.net (www0y.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.54]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08878 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:10:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 12445 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Jan 2000 23:16:32 -0000 Message-ID: <20000120231632.12444.qmail@www0y.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.54 by www0y for [142.176.90.124] via web-mailer(M3.3.1.96) on Thu Jan 20 23:16:32 GMT 2000 Date: 20 Jan 00 15:16:32 PST From: cramer gefren To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: thiram, sulfur, strawberries X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.3.1.96) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id SAA08882 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3222 In the message about using Thiram on strawberries, the author says that it may be the sulfur taste/smell which repel the deer. Would it be possible to use elemental sulfur in containers and achieve the same result? Would the presence of sulfur affect the preps? I lost nearly all my berries last summer to mice. Tried mouse traps without success - I guess those mice get pretty smart on good organic food. Couldn't see any solution but to grow berries in a raised bed surrounded by hardware cloth above and below - very expensive! (My lazy cats were no help but I did get a new kitten recently and am encouraging her hunting habits.) Nancy Geffken ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 18:48:56 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22356 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12622; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:43:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com (imo-d02.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.34]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA12334 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:40:34 -0500 (EST) From: VascCamb@aol.com Received: from VascCamb@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.91.11ea70a (4254) for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:45:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <91.11ea70a.25b8f824@aol.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:45:40 EST Subject: Re: Welcome Back!! To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 44 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3223 Allan-- My mailbox was almost empty for 3 days; I thought there was probably some problem with the server. Great that things are up and running again. I posted something that seems to have been lost, but no sweat; just a request which I've re-sent. Thanks very much for all your hard work--- Matt From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 18:53:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22412 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:53:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA13093; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:48:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA12760 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:44:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d156.infoserve.net [199.175.157.156]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id PAA24587 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:53:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000c01bf63a1$f11da6c0$9c9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Unsung energies & signals.... Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:56:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3224 HI Geoff and bdnowers, This has been well documented. It also works for the pests. When they find a susceptible plant, they release pheromones and plants release defense chemicals that attract more pests. At the same time, the predators of the pests are attracted. M. -----Original Message----- From: Geoff Heinricks To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, January 20, 2000 1:57 PM Subject: Unsung energies & signals.... >Here is the piece last year that finally changed my wavering about >scientific truths and the silly blindness and dogmatic narrowness we are >all too guilty of. Now at least I'll explore and probe and prod something >before dismissing it out of hand. > >Can't seem to locate the web address, but someone on the list will probably >be able to locate with the clues provided. I saw the original reference to >this in a Canadian newspaper, then tracked down the following abstract: > > [Image] > > Plants Send SOS When Caterpillars Bite > > [Corn earworm on immature cotton boll.] By emitting chemical > distress signals, some corn, > cotton, and tobacco plants > can summon tiny parasitic > wasps to rescue them from > hungry caterpillars like the > tobacco budworm and corn > earworm. Breeding crop > varieties specifically for > their wasp-calling traits is > of keen interest to > scientists seeking ways to > reduce insecticide use. > > But until recently, > researchers believed that > plants use the same SOS > distress signal--no matter > what the attacker. [See > "Beneficials Are Money in > the Bank," Agricultural > Research, February 1993, pp. > 20-22.] Now, a team of > scientists has proven > otherwise by showing that > plants actually emit signals > specific to the caterpillar > pest attacking them. > > By releasing blends of 10 to > 12 different chemical > compounds called volatiles, > plants can quickly and > accurately communicate their > attacker's identity to > friendly parasitic wasps--a > finding that could improve > their use in integrated pest > management programs. > > This chemical tête-à-tête > "is a much more > sophisticated system than we > ever suspected," says > University of Georgia > graduate student Consuelo > DeMoraes. She conducted the > study under the direction of > Agricultural Research > Service entomologist W. Joe > Lewis and his colleague, ARS > chemist James H. Tumlinson. > They reported the finding in > the June 1998 issue of > Nature. > > Before their work, "it had > not been shown > scientifically that plants > could send specific > information," says Lewis. He > is at ARS' Insect Biology > and Population Management > Research Laboratory in > Tifton, Georgia. > > Specificity is key to > survival of both the plant > and the wasps, he adds. For > example, Cardiochiles > nigriceps wasps can only > reproduce using tobacco > budworms as hosts for their > brood. In fact, the finicky > wasp will ignore plants > signaling attack by the > budworm's close relative, > the corn earworm--a pest > with its own natural > enemies. > > By releasing a large, > aromatic plume into the air, > plants not only help their > wasp allies quickly find > them, they also tell the > wasp who their attacker is. > This helps the wasp avoid > wasting precious energy. > > "Without a specific signal > from the plant, the > parasitoid might otherwise > spend all its time tracking > false cues," says Lewis. > "It's like finding a needle > in a haystack. It has to > find this one particular > host in order to reproduce." > > In field trials at Tifton, > scientists observed that C. > nigriceps wasps more often > flew to plants signaling > attack by tobacco budworms > than to those pestered by > corn earworms. In > experiments with tobacco, > tobacco budworm-infested > plants accounted for 164 out > of 198 total wasp visits. > > In separate experiments, the > scientists also monitored > plants whose leaves had been > chewed by the caterpillars > and subsequently removed. > This eliminated the > possibility of the wasps' > homing-in on chemical cues > in the caterpillars' saliva > or feces, rather than on the > plants' signals. As before, > C. nigriceps zeroed-in on > the tobacco budworm-damaged > plants. This happened 32 of > 48 times. > > The scientists also ran a > chemical analysis of the > plants' signals using a > special glass sleeve and gas > chromatography techniques. > This showed consistent > differences in > concentrations of volatile > compounds emanating from the > plants, depending on which > caterpillar pest had > attacked them. > > Lewis is also monitoring the > effects of too much nitrogen > on the signaling capacity of > cotton plants. > > "You can select varieties > for their inherent ability > to defend themselves," he > says. "But you also have to > know how to manage them so > that trait is > expressed."--By Jan Suszkiw, > Agricultural Research > Service Information Staff. > > W. Joe Lewis is at the > USDA-ARS Insect Biology and > Population Management > Research Laboratory, P.O. > Box 748, Tifton, GA 31793; > phone (912) 387-2348, fax > (912) 382-9467. > > "Managing Manure Nitrogen To > Curb Odors " was published > in the October 1998 issue of > Agricultural Research > magazine. Click here to see > this issue's table of > contents. > > Back to Press Release List > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 18:53:56 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22421 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:53:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA13127; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:48:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA12790 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:44:36 -0500 (EST) From: HILAWRIGHT@aol.com Received: from HILAWRIGHT@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.ef.aae7fc (4444) for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:49:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:49:42 EST Subject: Re: Trademark of Biodynamics-Comments From Demeter To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 47 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3225 In a message dated 20/01/00 07:20:46 Hawaiian Standard Time, uai@alltel.net writes: << Several years ago Heather Fox did a filming at my place for the Discovery Channel (it never was produced) and her camera and sound crew tried to film a segment up close to the broadcaster. After replacing batteries 5 or 6 times in 3 minutes they fled while they still had batteries left. We finished our filming a goodly distance away. >> I was really interested to read of this. Hugh, is there any more to tell about what happened when this crew tried to film? And has anyone else had similar experiences? Thanks Hilary From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 18:54:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22429 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:54:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA13165; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:48:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.72]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA12828 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:45:08 -0500 (EST) From: VascCamb@aol.com Received: from VascCamb@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.62.c49d4f (4254) for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:50:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <62.c49d4f.25b8f92d@aol.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:50:05 EST Subject: seeds To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 44 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3226 Woody-- I sent you a note on the list a few days ago, but it looks like it got lost in the recent blackout. I understand that you won't be growing seed for mailorder after this year and I'd love to give you some business before you close up shop. When you get a minute, could you mail me a copy of your catalog? Many Thanks, Matt Wheeler RR 5 Box 6225B Gardiner, ME 04345 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 20 20:01:18 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA23263 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:01:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19092; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:55:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (web1.vphos.net [207.102.129.200]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA18797 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:52:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.138]) by web1.vphos.net ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:57:34 -0800 Message-ID: <003e01bf63aa$83df41a0$5ecb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <62.c49d4f.25b8f92d@aol.com> Subject: Re: seeds Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:02:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3227 Matt: Thanks for asking! Woody Aurora Farm Seeds Aurora Biodynamic Farm 3492 Phillips Road Creston, B C CANADA V0B 1G2 Phone/Fax 250-428-4404 Email: aurora@kootenay.com Website: www.kootenay.com/~aurora All seeds are open-pollinated (non-hybrid) and untreated. They are cultivated in accordance with Biodynamic (life-force) principles. Biodynamics is an agricultural practice initiated by Rudolf Steiner in the 1920's. The farmer focuses upon stimulating life forces in the soil through the application of Biodynamic preparations. Our permanent beds are enlivened each year with composted manure--which has been treated with these special preparations made from 6 plants: chamomile, dandelion, oak bark, stinging nettle, valerian, and yarrow--and then mulched.We list seeds according to the part of the plant which is mainly utilized. Plants are viewed as fourfold in nature: root, leaf, flower and fruit which correspond to the four elements: earth, water, air and fire. Seeds are planted and harvested according to this four-fold principle. We use the STELLA*NATURA calendar. For instance, carrot seed is worked only during "root days". This allows the cosmic forces to penetrate and stimulate an elemental balance between soil, plant, and animal life resulting in optimal nutrition, flavour, and keeping qualities. Seeds cost $3.00 per packet except where noted otherwise. The number of seeds per packet will vary according to the seed type, but is ample for family gardens. We no longer mention "Days to Maturity" as so many catalogs do. Often as not, this raises expectations which are not met. We grow ALL our own seeds. We don't like to define our work negatively, but we get lots of questions in this realm, so here goes: NO genetically engineered seeds...NO artificial fertilizers...NO hybrids...NO pesticides...NO seed treatments. Just the real thing-seeds our ancestors, and yours, might have grown. Year 2000 Catalogue Edition revised December,1999 ROOT - Earth Element BEETS - Lutz Green Leaf Excellent greens; large roots are sweet and keep well CARROTS - Amsterdam forcing Gains flavour and color while still small; sweet, good storage ECHINACEA - Purpurea Purple, crimson fragrant flower; beneficial to immune system seeds need cold stratification (P) LEEKS - Carentan Excellent flavour, will overwinter and store well - King Richard Fast growing, mild flavour PARSNIPS - Hollow Crown Long smooth sweet root with excellent keep ing qualities - Turga A sweet parsnip which has been grown Biodynamically for generations (P) = Perennial LEAF - Water Element CABBAGE - Rodynda Red storage cabbage with tight 6-8 inch heads and delightful flavour CHINESE CABBAGE - Bok Choy Vigorous plant with deep green thick leaves and wide white stems which are wonderful in stirfry and soups; early spring and late summer planting CHIVES - A must in every garden, having numerous culinary uses (P) CILANTRO - Fresh leaves are the main ingredient in salsa and the seeds (coriander) may be ground for spice;self seeds freely COPPER FENNEL - Licorice flavoured bronze coloured leaves Tasty addition to salads (P) DILL - Bouquet Smaller plant (3') with larger lacy leaf; self seeds freely - Mammoth Plants up to 5' producing abundant leaves and seed; self seeds freely FRENCH SORREL - Sour green leaves make one of the earliest salad ingredients; highly desired by French chefs for soups KALE- Russian Red Excellent flavour, red, frilly, oakleaf shaped leaves - Siberian Hardy, fast growing; blue-green slightly curled leaves LAVENDER - A favourite for everyone; excellent for herbal baths and good for depression LETTUCE - Batavia Laura Savoyed, light green head lettuce - Black Seeded Simpson Large, tender lettuce with green-white leaves, slow to bolt - Rouge d'Hiver Favourite French heirloom with butterhead and romaine characteristics LOVAGE Plants grow to 5-7 feet; strong celery flavour used in soups and stews (P) MARSHMALLOW Perennial herb used in teas and as a demulcent (P) MUGWORT Known as Mother-of-Herbs in pre-Christian times; used in acupuncture (P) MULLEIN Stately, velvet-leaved plant grows to 7 feet with several 1-2 foot flower stalks; many medicinal uses PARSLEY - Italian Tall, flat-leafed variety with superb flavour (P) SHOO-FLY PLANT Traps white flies on leaves; greenhouse use for pest control SHUNGIKU OR GARLAND CHRYSANTHEMUM Yellow flowering plant used in Oriental cuisine; also known as chop suey green SPINACH - Giant Winter Smooth large leaves; very hardy with wonderful flavour - Winter Bloomsdale A savoy type with excellent flavour, hardy and dependable - Red Orach (Mountain Spinach) 2-6 feet beautiful red leaves; delicious in salads STINGING NETTLE One of the Biodynamic compost preparation plants; a great spring tonic; fermented nettle tea is a wonderful foliar feeding for garden plants SWEET CICELY Licorice flavoured, up to 5 feet; wonderful in salads and herb teas (P) TOBACCO - Virginia Smoking Pre-Columbian cultivar, the principal variety grown commercially - Wild Small compact leaves on a 2-3 foot plant; makes a spray to discourage insects YELLOW DOCK - Queen of blood purifiers; very high in organic iron FLOWER - Air Element AFRICAN DAISY 2 foot plant; flowers have steel blue, gold rimmed centers and white petals CALIFORNIA POPPY Bright orange, rapid self sowing annual CALENDULA - (Pot Marigold) yellow-orange, 1-2 feet, self sowing CHAMOMILE - German Beautiful small blooms make wonderful tea; a Biodynamic preparation plant; self seeds COLUMBINE - A mix of blues, yellow, purple and pink; primarily bi-colored; attracts hummingbirds COSMOS MIX Crimson, pink and white, bee and border annual; self seeds DALMATION PYRETHRUM Chrysanthemum-like perennial used to make insect-discouraging powder EVENING PRIMROSE A very hardy 3-4 toot plant with seeds high in gamma- linoleic acid; reported to be beneficial in menopause, multiple sclerosis FEVERFEW A 2 foot perennial used for headaches; nice border plant HOLLYHOCK - Garden Tomb of Jesus Pure white flower, a beauty; self seeds - Single Pink, 5-8' lovely against fences or walls; self seeds LUNARIA - Sweet scented purple flower yields silver dollar seed pods for drying LUPINE - Russell Deep blue, purple and yellow variety that enjoys a light soil and partial shade (P) POPPY - Bread Seed A blue-black seed used in baking cakes and muffins; self seeding - Tall Mix Beautiful pastels with some frilly petal types nice border annual; self seeding ST JOHN'S WORT - A hardy perennial which is used for herbal extracts and oil; up to 2 feet tall with yellow flowers SWEET WILLIAM - Crimson, scarlet, pink and white variegated biennial ZINNIA - State Fair Mix Many coloured 2-3' flowers which will delight you all summer long FRUIT - Fire Element BEANS - Pinto An early maturing variety of bush bean, good fresh or dry - Kidney Bush bean with mold resistant pods, wonderful for hearty winter soups and chili - Provider Early, dependable, prolific fresh green bean -Golden Rocky Yellow wax bean, flavourful and prolific CORN - Hooker's Sweet Indian Thin 5-7" ears, white or bi-color kernels, finest taste; matures blue-black - Mandan Bride A beautiful red flour corn from the Mandan people of North Dakota CUCUMBER - Marketmore A slicer; along with "Straight 8," this is an old time standard salad cuke FLAX - Blue flowers with edible seed that may be pressed for oil MILK THISTLE- known for 2000 years as blood cleanser and liver remedy; clears toxins; all parts edible; grows up to 4 feet; beautifully patterned leaves POPCORN - Dwarf Strawberry Small ears for popping or ornamental use PUMPKIN - Small Sugar Very sweet, excellent for pies and storage SQUASH - Hopi Pale Grey Very vigorous vines with tasty 6-10 lb fruits; light to dark grey; good keeper SUNFLOWER - Mammoth Russian Popular, large-headed variety up to 12' tall - Tarahumara Pure white seed with solid gold flowers; from Mexico TOMATO - Chadwick's Cherry Developed by Alan Chadwick and probably the best overall cherry tomato; highly productive and somewhat rare; requires staking - Kootenai Early, compact vines with large juicy fruits of fine flavour and heavy yield; a non-staking bush type - Money Maker Old English variety; sets freely in any weather; smooth 4 oz, deep red globes; medium early and yeavy yields; requires staking - Opal's Homestead Old Kentucky strain with excellent flavour, large red flattened fruits; bush - Oregon Spring One of the earliest to fruit; good flavor; so- called bush plant, but we stake - Red Pear Prolific, scarlet pear-shaped small fruits; a favourite for canning or fresh eating; requires staking - Ruth's Perfect Variably-sized, nicely shaped fruit averaging 2-3 to the pound; requires staking Biodynamically grown for many years - Yellow Pear Low acid, pear shaped fruits; prolific; heirloom from late 1800s; requires staking QUINOA - Temuco Small white highly nutritious seed, edible greens, and very hardy; an Incan staple; makes a wonderful porridge MEDICINAL HERB COLLECTION We are well aware that the law guards the conventional medical establishment's exclusive right to dispense advice on health and illness. For educational and research purposes, however, we can recommend the following powerful plant allies to your attention and offer a collection including one seed package of each at a special price. You don't have to sow them all this year, but it's good to have them on hand! Echinacea Purpurea - said to be beneficial for the immune system St. John's Wort -- traditionally used to bring light to depressed people Milk Thistle -- anciently regarded as a blood and liver cleanser Lavender -- a favourite for aromatherapy; relaxes and soothes Yellow Dock - another historically important blood purifier; highest source of organic iron among plants Evening Primrose - in the herbal literature beneficial in menopause and multiple sclerosis Feverfew -- old time headache remedy Marshmallow - demulcent; root infusion said to benefit gastric ulcers, coughs, diarrhea, insomnia Mugwort - known as "Mother-of-Herbs" since pre-Christian times; aids digestion, regulates menstruation Virginia Tobacco - if you smoke, grow your own, additive-free; if you don't, you may wish to follow the Native American custom and use it ceremonially as an offering 10 medicinal herb seed packets, $24 -- save $6 HERBAL ALTERNATIVES FIRST AID KIT Echinacea-for the immune system Tinctures: Peppermint-for colds, flue and stomach Skullcap-for nerves, PMS, headache Valerian--for sedative Oils: Arnica...externally for muscle aches and sprains St. John's Wort...wounds, sores, inflamation, burns, depression Each alternative comes in a 30 ml dropper bottle. Tinctures are produced with Biodynamically grown plant material in 40% alcohol. Oils are sun processed in organic olive oil. All six alternatives for $85-save $15 ORDER FORM Aurora Biodynamic Farm 3492 Phillips Road Creston, B C CANADA V0B 1G2 Email: aurora@kootenay.com Phone/Fax 250-428-4404 Website: www.kootenay.com/~aurora YOUR NAME____________________________________________________ ___ ADDRESS_________________________________________________ ________ CITY,PROVINCE(STATE)________________________________________ _____ POSTAL CODE______________PHONE_________________________________ EMAIL___________________________ Seeds are $3 per packet Garlic is $16 per pound plus shipping surcharge Please send your check or money order with this form. And thank you very much. Your order helps us to be good stewards of the land. Together we can heal our Mother Earth, in cooperation. ...and thank you very much! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 4:50 PM Subject: seeds > Woody-- > I sent you a note on the list a few days ago, but it looks like it got > lost in the recent blackout. > I understand that you won't be growing seed for mailorder after this year > and I'd love to give you some business before you close up shop. When you > get a minute, could you mail me a copy of your catalog? > > Many Thanks, > > Matt Wheeler > RR 5 Box 6225B > Gardiner, ME 04345 > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 00:10:40 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA26619 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:10:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA09173; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:04:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03584 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:30:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([210.55.179.179]) by mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000121033507.PFS3352759.mta4-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:35:07 +1300 Message-ID: <3887D448.6493@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:36:41 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNOW Subject: planets and the zodiac Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3228 I have long pondered the relationship of the zodiac and the priomary and secondary planetary influences. While I have come up with some answers I would very much appreciate some other references on the subject. Does anyone know of any work or anyones ideas as to which constellations would relate to which aspect of the planets. ie Is Capricorn - Saturn 1 or 2 I am also interested in exploring RS source works on the "Twelve Senses". Could someone point me in the direction for this please. Many thanks in advance. Glen Atkinson. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 00:10:56 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA26627 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:10:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA09314; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:05:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA07540 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:34:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca104.vthokies.net [206.153.172.104]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA28010 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:13:56 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.0.25.20000113212326.00a93ec0@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.25 (Beta) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:40:49 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: gardner Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future In-Reply-To: <387E3D64.7C61@xtra.co.nz> References: <4.3.0.25.20000112151352.00a843f0@swva.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3229 At 10:02 AM 1/14/00 +1300, you wrote: >gardner wrote: > > > > At 07:14 AM 1/12/00 +1300, you wrote: > > > > >[snip] > > >Just as we have a need for threefold everything, so Demeter is the > > >economic sphere, while Biodynamics is actually the spiritual sphere, > > >with the BDAs being the cultural sphere. What we have with the BDA & > > >Demeter trying to own/'safeguard' the word Biodynamics is the economic > > >sphere again trying to take over the spiritual. If you want to see what > > >that does, look at NZ BD history for the last 20 years. > > > > > >Glen A. > > > > Dear Glen, > > > > Thank you for your good post. I am confused, however, by your > > last paragraph (above). You say Biodynamics represents the "spiritual > > sphere, with the BDA's being the cultural sphere." Do you mean the "rights > > or political sphere" instead of the "cultural sphere"? "Cultural" and > > "spiritual" are usually regarded as synonomous terms, being two alternative > > translations of Steiner's German term "Geistesleben". > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Malcolm > >Malcolm >Thank you for any clarification. I have not studied the threefold >material in detail , just been on the edges of many discussions, so from >what you are saying it appears I am using the wrong words in the wrong >place. > >I use the spiritual, economic and cultural words as they make sense to >me. > >I would like to get them right so others can get my point. > >In the spirit, soul, body trilogy: spiritual is the 'pure' impulse of >the activity, so I guess this is were the morals, ethics and spiritual >intent are strongest. I can see how the political sphere can be part of >this. Political in the sense of guiding the impulse, not political in >the sense of economic manuipulation of the impulse. > The 'economic' is like the body, where it meets the Earth and >interfaces with the realities of everyday life, while the cultural >(soul) area is in a sense what develops in the middle as an interaction >of the two poles. > >I know the threefold pictures are usually drawn more as a triangle with >smaller overlapping areas etc, so I am simplifying the concept. > >I did not know that 'spiritual' and 'cultural' were synonomous. Sounds >confusing, which then brings us back to the BDAs > >In this context it is easy to see how the BDAs are political/spiritual >sphere beings rather than cultural(social). What do you call my >cultural? > >Anyway it appears there is a cross over of activities here. The BDAs are >the place were interested people come to meet and share their desire for >knowledge, experience and support (more and more around making more $) >essentially creating the middle cultural life of the community, yet they >are also the political/ spiritual body, which in NZ has had a very >strong economic focus and role. The question is where is the spiritual >activity of looking outwards at the potential of Biodynamics as a pure >'science' exploring its potential in all its possible forms. This is the >research function and in a sense the most spiritual aspect of >biodynamics. >I sense your use of the word 'political' with regards the spiritual >sphere is actually one of those crossover areas say between the >spiritual and economic sphere. > >Afterall it is politics which appears to be interfering with the >spiritual activity of BD development. eg Why is it that even after a >BDANZ AGM in 1991 which supported inclusion of my research in the life >of the association, have I found it impossible to publish anything about >it in the journal, or present any of it more than the original 5 minute >opportunity? Where was the invitation to present a fuller picture of it >at the next AGM field days? It is little more than a development upon >koliskos work yet it is 'a red rag to a bull' to those in charge of >NZBDA politics. Hardly a spiritual activity. > >I guess I see another arm of the trilogy is needed. We have Demeter >dealing with the economic and we have the BDAs doing the social, yet the >'research circle' function RS actually empowered with the initial >development of Biodynamics is sadly lacking. Does it still exist in >Europe? Where is it? Where is its national role in each country. > >BDAs have become the grab bag of all spheres and it appears not to be >working. > >Anyway any clarification you can bring is most welcome. > >regards > >Glen A. Dear Glen, The three spheres of society that Steiner distinguished could be called the economic, the political, and the cultural. (I prefer to avoid the word 'spiritual' because there is actually a spiritual aspect to *all* the spheres.) Steiner considered agriculture to be basis of the whole economic sphere, and this includes all producers, consumers and distributors. Demeter, however, is none of these but rather a regulator, so I would include it in the political or governmental sphere. The BDA's should be fostering education and research and so should belong to the cultural sphere. Does that make sense? Malcolm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 00:29:17 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA26777 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:29:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA11708; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:23:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.bulkley.net (popper1.vphos.net [207.102.129.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA11441 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:20:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from cybernet ([204.244.19.122]) by popper1.vphos.net ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:26:40 -0800 Message-ID: <004901bf63d0$4d518a00$7a13f4cc@bulkley.net> From: "J&J Clifford" To: References: <004101bf6311$8cf7b0e0$ba9dafc7@333> Subject: Re: Farming for the 20th Century Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:27:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3230 Dear Micheal A largish well mannered bright amiable friend of mine fends off deer and bears alike for the modest fee of a share from my plate and a corner by the bed. He's a two year old Bernese Mountain Dog I can't say enough about. He actually likes strawberries but never helps himself. Cheers Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Roboz To: Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 10:41 PM Subject: Re: Farming for the 20th Century > Dear Allan, > > I had tried Thiram here in Vancouver also for deer control to prevent them > from eating peoples' favourite tulips, etc. I had some mixed results. > Perhaps the deer here are more persistant! M. > -----Original Message----- > From: Allan Balliett > To: bdnow@envirolink.org > Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 6:32 PM > Subject: Farming for the 20th Century > > > >The following information on repelling deer was found in a Virginia > >Tech publication on strawberry production: > > > >>We borrowed an idea from the nursery/ornamental plants industry for > >>deer control: the repellency effect on deer of the > >>older strawberry fungicide, Thiram, still available in Virginia as > >>Thiram 65% wettable powder, labeled for use on > >>strawberries in Virginia as a fruit and foliage fungicide. Working > >>with our Extension Pesticide Coordinator, Dr. Mike > >>Weaver, we found a Thiram sprayable formulation still being > >>manufactured in 1995 by UCB Chemicals Corporation in > >>Georgia, distributed by Helena Chemicals Corporation, labeled in > >>1995 for strawberries in Virginia, available in 10-pound > >>bags. We used up to the labeled rate of 5 pounds/acre per > >>application, on an area where deer had browsed our Chandler > >>strawberries for several weeks. After the weekly spray program began > >>in early March, deer feeding totally ceased! Deer > >>apparently just do not like the sulfur-like flavor/taste/odor of > >>Thiram fungicide! In fact, their night feeding pattern in that > >>area completely ceased, even on the untreated control rows. > >>Evidently they left that area for better tasting pickings. Several > >>growers in other areas also report similar results from using Thiram > >>fungicide to repel deer. > >> > >>We stopped spraying after 3 applications and the deer never came > >>back and have not yet been back some 5 months later! > >>With Thiram fungicide, we hope in the future to break the cycle of > >>deer feeding in the fall on newly set plants and > >>browsing them to the ground, causing severe yield reductions from > >>lack of branch crowns development. We used > >>spreader-sticker with our Thiram sprays and followed the label > >>statements for use on strawberries. If you add Lorsban or > >>other labeled insecticide to one Thiram spray for control of > >>strawberry clippers, tarnished plant bugs, aphids or mites, be > >>careful to avoid bee kill by spraying late in the day after bees > >>return to the hives. Rates and timing for compliance with > >>worker safety, reentry and intervals between last application and > >>harvests are found in Virginia Cooperative Extension > >>Publication 456-420, Commercial Vegetable Recommendations for > >>Virginia, which is revised annually and includes strawberry > >>recommendations for the mid-Atlantic area. > > > > > >As I remember, Strawberries from Florida are the most toxic fruit on > >the grocery shelf. Oh, boy! > > > >-Allan > >-- > > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 00:57:57 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA27004 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:57:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA14786; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:52:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA14641 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:51:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d160.infoserve.net [199.175.157.160]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id WAA19276 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:00:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001001bf63d5$02b407c0$a09dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Farming for the 20th Century Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:01:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3231 Jim, I think that is biological-static control at its best!! Or, should I say, deeriostatic control. M. -----Original Message----- From: J&J Clifford To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, January 20, 2000 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Farming for the 20th Century >Dear Micheal > A largish well mannered bright amiable friend of mine fends off deer and >bears alike for the modest fee of a share from my plate and a corner by the >bed. He's a two year old Bernese Mountain Dog I can't say enough about. He >actually likes strawberries but never helps himself. > Cheers > Jim >----- Original Message ----- >From: Michael Roboz >To: >Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 10:41 PM >Subject: Re: Farming for the 20th Century > > >> Dear Allan, >> >> I had tried Thiram here in Vancouver also for deer control to prevent >them >> from eating peoples' favourite tulips, etc. I had some mixed results. >> Perhaps the deer here are more persistant! M. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Allan Balliett >> To: bdnow@envirolink.org >> Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 6:32 PM >> Subject: Farming for the 20th Century >> >> >> >The following information on repelling deer was found in a Virginia >> >Tech publication on strawberry production: >> > >> >>We borrowed an idea from the nursery/ornamental plants industry for >> >>deer control: the repellency effect on deer of the >> >>older strawberry fungicide, Thiram, still available in Virginia as >> >>Thiram 65% wettable powder, labeled for use on >> >>strawberries in Virginia as a fruit and foliage fungicide. Working >> >>with our Extension Pesticide Coordinator, Dr. Mike >> >>Weaver, we found a Thiram sprayable formulation still being >> >>manufactured in 1995 by UCB Chemicals Corporation in >> >>Georgia, distributed by Helena Chemicals Corporation, labeled in >> >>1995 for strawberries in Virginia, available in 10-pound >> >>bags. We used up to the labeled rate of 5 pounds/acre per >> >>application, on an area where deer had browsed our Chandler >> >>strawberries for several weeks. After the weekly spray program began >> >>in early March, deer feeding totally ceased! Deer >> >>apparently just do not like the sulfur-like flavor/taste/odor of >> >>Thiram fungicide! In fact, their night feeding pattern in that >> >>area completely ceased, even on the untreated control rows. >> >>Evidently they left that area for better tasting pickings. Several >> >>growers in other areas also report similar results from using Thiram >> >>fungicide to repel deer. >> >> >> >>We stopped spraying after 3 applications and the deer never came >> >>back and have not yet been back some 5 months later! >> >>With Thiram fungicide, we hope in the future to break the cycle of >> >>deer feeding in the fall on newly set plants and >> >>browsing them to the ground, causing severe yield reductions from >> >>lack of branch crowns development. We used >> >>spreader-sticker with our Thiram sprays and followed the label >> >>statements for use on strawberries. If you add Lorsban or >> >>other labeled insecticide to one Thiram spray for control of >> >>strawberry clippers, tarnished plant bugs, aphids or mites, be >> >>careful to avoid bee kill by spraying late in the day after bees >> >>return to the hives. Rates and timing for compliance with >> >>worker safety, reentry and intervals between last application and >> >>harvests are found in Virginia Cooperative Extension >> >>Publication 456-420, Commercial Vegetable Recommendations for >> >>Virginia, which is revised annually and includes strawberry >> >>recommendations for the mid-Atlantic area. >> > >> > >> >As I remember, Strawberries from Florida are the most toxic fruit on >> >the grocery shelf. Oh, boy! >> > >> >-Allan >> >-- >> > >> > >> > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 06:59:17 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA29549 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 06:59:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA28968; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 06:48:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA28804 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 06:44:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.201] (pm3shep4-163-201.intrepid.net [209.190.163.201]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05889 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 06:49:16 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 06:46:13 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: OFF: Fwd: vitamin b12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3232 FYI - unverified - Allan >X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to >owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f >From: "Klaus Wiegand" >Organization: Landw. U.-& Forsch.-Anstalt Speyer >To: mgs23@pacbell.net, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu >Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:25:24 +0200 >Subject: vitamin b12 >Reply-to: Wiegand@lufa-sp.vdlufa.de >Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu > > >hello misha, > > >The following is my translation of an article written for the german >natural hygiene society by dipl. oec. troph. petra luehrmann and >prof. dr. rer. nat. claus leitzmann from the institute for >nutritional science at the justus liebig university in giessen, >germany (any translation errors found are my own "copywrongs", >but you may keep them anyway - hoping there are not too much). > >This article, published in December 1993 and written by one of >germany's leading nutrition scientists (i think, it's correct to >say that leitzmann in germany is accepted as THE nutrition >expert), should help to clear up some of the "myths" being >bandied around on this vitamin: > >--- >VITAMIN B12 - THE CURRENT STATE-OF-THE-ART OF RESEARCH > >What is vitamin B12? > >Vitamin B12 is a group name for a number of closely related chemical >compounds which have a molecular structure known as a corrin. Of all >the vitamins, B12 has by far the most complicated structure. It is >the only known nutrient which contains the trace element cobalt. >When >exposed to light, oxygen or acidic or alkaline conditions, it slowly >looses its vitamin properties. On the other hand, it is relatively >heat-resistent. The average loss as a result of cooking, for >example, >is said to be about 12%. > >The molecular structure of vitamin B12 > >Whilst I can supply anyone interested with a molecular diagram >showing the structure, it is only really important in this >connection >to note that there are a number of substances with a similar >structure to B12 but which lack certain atoms or carry additional >side-chains. Such molecules, known as B12-Analoga, are totally >ineffective as substitutes for the real thing. > >How is vitamin B12 taken up in the body? > >The resorption of vitamin B12 is a fairly complicated process and >takes place in the lower part of the small intestine. Resorption is >only possible with the aid of a specific protein known as intrinsic >factor which is produced by the gastric glands in the stomach >lining. > >How much vitamin B12 do we need? > >Vitamin B12 is an "essential", in other words it is vital to our >health and wellbeing and can only be obtained from outside food >sources. It is involved as a co-factor in numerous enzymatic >reactions in the body. The recommended doses vary depending on your >scientific source of information. A number of research projects have >revealed, however, that 1 ug (meaning a millionth of a gram..as I >can't reproduce the little tail on the bottom left-hand corner of >the >"u" in "ug" in here) of resorbed B12 is sufficient to top up and >maintain the body reserves and prevent any signs of a deficiency. >However the B12 contained in foodstuffs is by no means fully >resorbed: Strange but true, the less B12 a meal contains the higher >the percentage actually resorbed by the body. An intake of 0.1 ug >results in a resorption of around 77%, 1 ug 56% and 50 ug only 3%. >In >other words, the body only resorbs about half of the B12 in a meal. > >The German Society for Nutrition (Deutsche Gesellschaft fuer >Ernaehrung - DGE) recommends an intake of 3 ug vitamin B12 per day. >The U.S. Food and Nutrition Board, on the other hand, says that a >daily intake of 2 ug is sufficient. The Word Health Organisation is >convinced that 1 ug per day is enough. To top it all, the well-known >North American nutritionist Victor Herbert claims that 0.2 - 0.25 ug >are all we need to cover our daily requirement. Whilst these >differing recommendations may well be a result of the common >practice >of adding a "safety bonus" to "cover all eventualities", they >certainly seem to reflect the general uncertainty as to how much B12 >we really do need to take up each day. > >Which foodstuffs contain vitamin B12? > >Vitamin B12 can only be produced by microorganisms and is >practically >only found in animal-based foods. Liver generally provides the >highest quantity of B12, although meat and meat products, as well as >fish, eggs and dairy products, are also rich in B12. Vegetables, on >the other hand, can only contain B12 if they have come into contact >with microorganisms. A look through the scientific literature shows >the following plant-based foods as containing B12: > >- Vegetables containing lactic acid, e.g. sauerkraut (fermented >white > cabbage) > >- Fermented soya products, e.g. Tempeh, Natto, Miso etc. > >- Marine plants, e.g. algae > >- Yeasts and products manufactured from yeasts such as bread and >beer > >- Fermented cereal products > >- The leaves of alfalfa shoots > >- Root vegetables > >The info in publications before about 1990 on the B12 content of >various foodstuffs is both contradictory and should be taken with a >piece of salt in view of the rather unreliable methods in general >use >before this date (microbiological tests and non-specific >radiochemical methods). They also included the B12-Analoga, i.e. >those molecules mentioned above which look like but do not produce >the same effects as the real thing in the human system. In recent >years a new method has been developed which only identifies the real >B12 and thus gives a much more accurate picture of the B12 content >of >various foodstuffs (it is a radiochemical method which uses >intrinsic >factor to bind the genuine, active B12). Using this method it was >discovered that fermented soya products, yeasts and blue algae of >the >genus spirulina contain practically no real B12 whatosever. The only >plants found to contain active B12 were legumes (largely because a >number of species of soil bacteria live in their roots) and several >species of marine plants. The considerable differences between >animal >and plant foods can be seen in the table following: > >Active vitamin B12 Content per 100 g Foodstuff > >Very high (over 10 ug) Innards (livers, kidneys, hearts), >mussels, oysters > >High (3 - 10 ug) Shrimps, sardines, mackerel, herings > >Medium (1 - 3 ug) Cheeses (Camembert, Emmental, Edam, > Tilsiter), eggs > >Low (less than 1 ug) Milk, curd, cottage cheese, yoghurt, > root vegetables, legumes, marine plants > >Undetectable Yeasts, fermented soya products (e.g. > Tempeh, Natto, Miso), blue algae > (genus spirulina) > > > >How do the symptoms of a B12 deficiency look like? > >A B12 deficiency effects virtually every body cell. A continuous >deficiency leads to megaloblastic anaemia (abnormally large >blood cells in the bone marrow). The symptoms are a loss of >appetite, >weight-loss, a global feeling of weakness, pale skin and a smooth >tongue with a burning sensation. In addition, a B12 deficiency can >also lead to the degeneration of various parts of the spinal cord >and >therefore cause permanent damage to the nervous system (the >symptoms can >range from increased reflexes, or the loss of reflexes, and can >later >lead to uncoordinated movements and even paralysis). A B12 >deficiency >in children can seriously retard their development. > >A nutrition-based deficiency is extremely uncommon. The average >intake in Germany, for example, is well over the recommended >requirement (females 4.1 microgr per day and males 5.8 microg per >day). The >most common cause of a deficiency is impaired resorption. This is >the result of an illness in the small intestine (e.g. Coeliac >disease >or sprue, which in turn are caused by the excessive consumption of >cereal-based products containing gluten) or an impaired synthesis of >the intrinsic factor necessary for the resorption of B12. The >production of intrinsic factor can be impaired by the surgical >removal of part of the stomach or through an inflammation of the >stomach lining (gastritis). > >The B12 level in the blood serum is generally used to assess the >level in the body as a whole. You are said to have a problem if >the concentration is found to be smaller than 150 pg/ml. However >a low serum concentration does not necesarily point to a clinical >deficiency. > >Research has shown that the serum concentration is generally lower >when less animal-based foods are consumed. Vegetarians and vegans >almost always have lower readings than lacto or ovo-lacto >vegetarians >(ovo = eggs, lacto = dairy produce). The later, on the other hand, >generally have lower readings than the those with a mixed diet of >both >animal and vegetable foodstuffs. Lacto and ovo-lacto vegetarians >generally take in around 2 microg of B12 per day (resulting from the >consumption of milk and milk products and also eggs, as the case may >be). The serum concentrations in these people are generally found to >be normal and cases of a deficiency are thus relatively rare. In the >case of the pure vegetarians and vegans, cases of a deficiency are >equally rare, i.e. even though their levels are sometimes below the >normal level. > >Why is a vitamin B12 deficiency rare in vegetarians? > >The lack of a B12 deficiency amongst vegetarians is largely >attributed to the following: > >- Vegetable and plant-based foods can contain small amounts of > B12 which are sufficient to cover requirements. > >- The body's B12 reserves last longer than those of all other > known vitamins. The body, and in particular the liver, keeps a > reserve of around 2 - 5 mg of B12. This quantity is sufficient > to cover the body's demand for a period of 3 - 5 years. B12 > is largely secreted into the small intestine together with the > bile juices. Most of it is then re-resorbed and restored again > for future needs (enterohepatic cycle). This in effect means > that, with a low or even no intake of B12, it can take up to > 20 years before the reserves are depleted and clinical symptoms > of a deficiency start to show. > >- The bacteria in the large intestine are capable of > manufacturing B12, although these are mainly the inactive B12- > types (Analoga) which the body cannot use. In addition, any > genuine B12 produced here can not be utilised due to the lack > of intrinsic factor needed to aid resorption. On the other > hand, the greater quantities of fiber consumed by vegetarians > tend to promote the settlement of bacteria in the lower areas > of the small intestine and hence also the production of B12 in > this region. As there is normally also a sufficient > concentration of intrinsic factor in this area, the body is > able to utilise any B12 that the bacteria may produce here. > >- The bacterial flora in the mouth and throat can also contribute > towards covering the demand. > >- Another area of discussion is the apparent lack of any B12 > deficiencies in countries with a less stricter sense of > hygiene. Microorganisms, insect pests and sometimes faecal > remains (from the use of animal manures) can all be found on > food plants. If such plants are not thoroughly washed, such > microorganisms can be consumed and also contribute towards > providing B12. There are recorded cases of Asians who emigrated > to western countries suffering from a B12 deficiency even > though they never changed their diets. Such cases have been > attributed to the generally higher standard of food hygiene in > the modern western countries. > >One problem which should not be underestimated is when babies are >exclusively breast-fed by mothers who have practised vegetarianism >for a protracted length of time. There have been reports of children >with serious neurological and haemotological disorders due to the >mothers not having sufficient B12 in their milk. Studies have shown >that the vitamin B12 level in the blood serum of a mother roughly >equals the concentration found in her milk, and that the level in >the >milk tends to slowly decline on a strict vegetarian diet. It is thus >important that pregnant vegetarian women wishing to breast-feed >their >child have the level of B12 in their blood monitored during prenatal >checkups. The vitamin B12 concentration in the serum of the child >should also be established (also after having weaned off) as the >liver reserves of small children can be very low or even non- >existent. > >Vitamin B12 preparations should only be taken if prescribed by a >medical doctor, and preference should be given to those preparations >which contain B12 as the only active ingredient. Vitamin B12 in >multivitamin and mineral preparations is hardly resorbed at all. In >addition, such preparations often contain mainly the inactive types >of B12 (Analoga), which can also result through interaction with >some >of the other constituent substances. > >----- > >so far prof. leitzmann. > >in our microbiologic lab we do the quality control for the >largest producer of vitamins in germany since 1996. so we had to >learn the analytics and the behinds the hard way and read a lot >of literature, until we knew, that MOST of the vitamin b12 in >food are useless analogons. this also means: most of the analyses >on vitamin b done in food before 1990 are more wrong than right. >the published old values are at least twice as high as in reality >(it doesn't matter very much in practise, because the >recommandations based on these data are ALSO at least twice as >high as ASSUMED neccessary today - there's no KNOWN minimum for >humans, additionally animal tests are done with the pure b-12, >quite unrealistic). just reading the abstracts is almost useless, >because you definitely have to know the METHOD, the data were >derived by. and these were rarely mentioned in the abstracts. > > > >questions: >have you ever wondered where some of the strongest strictly >plant-eating animals in the world get their B12 from? >(non-ruminants like gorillas or horses etc. ruminants get their >b-12 from the bacteria digested in the rumen. btw: are elephants >ruminants ?? my guess: no. their diet consists of less than 1% >"meat" like bugs as undesired contamination taken up with plants) > >the half life cycle of b-12 is about 1400 days, which means, if i >don't >get ANY b12 by nutritition and intrinsic factor (a glycoproteid), >i will still have 50% of my pool after a bit more than 4 years >of not having ANY b12. it will be depleted after >20 years.. > >The critics PRO vitamin b12 are thus right in some respects, but >also fail to explain how the bacteria manage to survive on the >COOKED meat they eat. cobalamin is mostly destroyed by cooking !! >you may guess yourself, how much RAW meat mr. average eats >throughout a whole year. i largely doubt, that esp. americans >even get a chance to eat RAW meat anywhere at all. > > >from medline: > >TI: Vegetarian diets and children. >AU: Sanders-TA; Reddy-S >AD: Department of Nutrition and Dietetics, Kings College, >University of London, England. >SO: Am-J-Clin-Nutr. 1994 May; 59(5 Suppl): 1176S-1181S >AB: The diets and growth of children reared on vegetarian diets >are reviewed. Excessive bulk combined with low energy density can >be a problem for children aged < or = 5 y and can lead to >imparied growth. Diets that have a high content of phytate and >other modifiers of mineral absorption are associated with an >increased prevalence of rickets and iron-deficiency anemia. >Vitamin B-12 deficiency is a real hazard in unsupplemented or >unfortified vegan and vegetarian diets. It is suggested that >vegans and vegetarians should use oils with a low ratio of >linoleic to linolenic acid in view of the recently recognized >role of docosahexaenoic acid in visual functioning. If known >pitfalls are avoided, the growth and development of children >reared on both vegan and vegetarian diets appears normal. > > >"Staging vitamin B-12 (cobalamin) status in >vegetarians", _American_Journal_of_Clinical_Nutrition_, >volume 59 (supplement), pages 1213S-1222S: > >"About one-third of the 'vitamin B-12' in serum is in fact >not cobalamins (which are all forms of vitamin B-12 that >are active for humans), but other corrinoids that are >metabolically dead for humans but active for bacteria. >Thus, many microbiologic assays may find normal 'vitamin >B-12' concentrations in vitamin B-12-deficient people >because the assay is reading as vitamin B-12 what is >in fact noncobalamin corrinoids." > > >"Vitamin B-12: plant sources, requirements, >and assay", _American_Journal_of_Clinical_Nutrition_, >volume 48, pages 852-858: > >"Vitamin B-12 is of singular interest in any discussion >of vegetarian diets because this vitamin is not found >in plant foods as are other vitamins. Confusion about >what sources may yield vitamin B-12 to strict vegetarians >has arisen because the standard US Pharmacopeia (USP) >assay for vitamin B-12 does not assay only vitamin B-12. >In the USP method the content of vitamin B-12 of any given >food is determined by making a water extract of that food >and feeding the extract to a bacterium (_Lactobacillus_ >_leichmannii_). The quantity of vitamin B-12 is >determined by the amount of bacterial growth. The problem >is that what is active vitamin B-12 for bacteria is not >necessarily active vitamin B-12 for humans. Many of the >papers in the literature give values of vitamin B-12 in >food that are false because as much as 80% of the activity >by this method is due to inactive analogues of vitamin >B-12." > > >--- > >adults do tolerate a lot of deficiencies, children don't!!. the >first thing pediatricians are taught at university, is that >children are NOT to be treated like SMALL adults, but VERY >different (they are much more robust against pocks, but less >robust f.e against a lack of vitamin b12.) > > >summary: b-12 recommandations and contents in food found in older >literature are questionable, these in newer articles are >contradictive. the same with the constant claim, that vegans do >lack sufficient vitamin b (the whole group). >seventh-day-adventists and mormones both live longer and >healthier than the rest of you. both of them rarely smoke, both >don't drink alcohol, but while the adventists don't eat meat, the >mormones do so (see the framingham study). so health seems less >to be a question, whether you eat meat or not, but whether you >live an elsewhere healthy life. > > >everythink in moderation (see next mail ;-]) is also valid for >meat! None of the big world religions forbids eating meat. the >fact, that mohammed forbad pig's meat, might well be attributed >to his egoism: his family members were known donkey breeders for >at least 4 generations ;-) (more realistic, that it was >wellknown, that pig meat spoils very fast under the climate, >where moslims live and often has intestine worms). > >there's another interesting finding: about 15 years ago most of >the finnish population had a real lack of b-12. reason: their >food mainly consisted of raw dried fish and in parallel it was >found, that 70% of the fins suffered from tapeworms. it were the >tapeworms, who consumed most of the b-12 in the gut. the finns >were treated against the tapeworms, the b-12 deficiency >"mystically" disappeared... > >stomach cancer (where the whole stomach is surgically removed), >is one of the rare other reasons, one NEEDS additional b-12 >injections. except for weaning mothers and the mentioned reasons >i know of no other reason, you need to care about b-12 >supplementation. > > > >Herbert V: Vitamin B12: Plant sources, requirements, and assay. >Am J Clin Nutr 48: 852-858, 1988. > >Albert MJ, Mathan VI, Baker SJ: Vitamin B12 synthesis by human >small intestinal bacteria. Nature 283: 781-782, 1980. > >Herbert VD and Colman N: Folic acid and vitamin B12. In Shils ME >and Young VR (eds): Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease, 7th >ed. Philadelphia: Lea and Febiger, 1988; 388-416. > >Immerman AM: Vitamin B12 status on a vegetarian diet. A >critical review. Wld Rev Nutr Diet 37: 38-54, 1981. > >Specker BL, Miller D, Norman EJ et al: Increased urinary >methylmalonic acid excretion in breast-fed infants of vegetarian >mothers and identification of an acceptambel dietary source of >vitamin B12. AM J Clin Nutr 47: 89-92, 1987. > >Kondo H, Binder MJ, Kohhouse JF et al: Presence and formation of >cobalamin analogues in multivitamin-mineral pills. J Clin Invest >70: 889-898, 1982. > > > > >even the beri-beri and the lack of vitamin b-1 is a scientific >hoax and the unability of today's science to draw new conclusions >is a real shame !!! not even prof. eijman, who got the >nobel-price for his work on b-12, did not believe in beri-beri >due to b-1 deficiency. the story is a classic, but it is WRONG. >just do a search on "eikjman", his scholar prof. "oomen", >"thiamin" and esp. "citreoviridin" (a mycotoxin found in spoiled >rice). not only was this the only case, where a nobel winner did >not believe in the declared REASON for gaining the price, he even >refused to go to stockholm to receive the price, but instead sent >his scholar to appease the committee... the relation between beri- >beri >and b-1/thiamin was "distilled" much later from his research. he >himself never believed it.. today it's known, that he was right. >the only real beri-beri is the "dry beri-beri" from hard-core >alcoholics. > >what strict vegetarians are really lacking, is vitamin D, as most >practical doctors can tell you. rachitis is a much more TYPICAL >symptom of vegetarians (and again esp. in children) than vitamin >b12 deficiency, even for those, who get lots of sun. > > >klaus > > > > >To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command >"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". >To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command >"subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > >All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: >http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 08:58:51 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA00877 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:58:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06776; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:51:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com (imo-d09.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.41]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06706 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:50:50 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.f.7e1c6b (3941) for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:55:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:55:54 EST Subject: Straws in the Wind To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3233 Two straws in the wind: "Kendall-Jackson Wine Estates Voluntarily Bans Selected Pesticides Sustainable Agriculture Practices Strengthened in All Jackson Family Vineyards" So says the title of a Kendall-Jackson press release (just last week). They have 11,000 acres of vineyards. Gerbers has restricted the use of a number of pesticides in their baby food apples. This was as of 1998. The smart ones are trying to get out in front of the FQPA and future government actions and also protect their markets as consumers become more knowledgeable. Dan Lynch, Long Mountain Vineyard From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 09:27:17 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01367 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:27:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08918; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:20:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail42.wlv.netzero.net (mail42.wlv.netzero.net [209.247.163.33]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08589 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:16:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 28333 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jan 2000 14:21:52 -0000 Received: from pppa72-resalechattanooga1-2r7227.saturn.bbn.com (HELO myputer) (4.54.198.197) by mail42.wlv.netzero.net with SMTP; 21 Jan 2000 14:21:52 -0000 Message-ID: <008f01bf641a$b214d420$c5c63604@myputer> From: "captaindot" To: References: <3887D448.6493@xtra.co.nz> Subject: Re: planets and the zodiac Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:20:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3234 Dear Glen, There is a gentleman named Brian Keats who wrote a book titled "Betwixt Heaven & Earth" who seems to share your interests. His webpage is at http://www.acenet.com.au/~astrocal Hope this is of some help. Sincerely. John P. Gallerie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Atkinson" To: "BDNOW" Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 10:36 PM Subject: planets and the zodiac > I have long pondered the relationship of the zodiac and the priomary and > secondary planetary influences. While I have come up with some answers I > would very much appreciate some other references on the subject. > > Does anyone know of any work or anyones ideas as to which constellations > would relate to which aspect of the planets. ie Is Capricorn - Saturn 1 > or 2 > > I am also interested in exploring RS source works on the "Twelve > Senses". Could someone point me in the direction for this please. > > Many thanks in advance. > > Glen Atkinson. > > __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 09:32:05 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01477 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:32:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09249; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:24:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.bulkley.net (web1.vphos.net [207.102.129.200]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09156 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:24:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from cybernet ([204.244.19.105]) by web1.vphos.net ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 06:29:36 -0800 Message-ID: <00c001bf641c$30c14e60$6913f4cc@bulkley.net> From: "J&J Clifford" To: References: <50.84f1fc.25b0a21a@aol.com> Subject: Re: Soil Tests/Analysis Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 06:31:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3235 Dan Try Woods End Research Lab.,Box 297,Mt. Vernon, Maine,04352. email, info@woodsend.org Good Luck Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 8:00 AM Subject: Soil Tests/Analysis > All. I am not satisfied with the soil tests/analysis I get from VA Tech, the > state testing lab. For example, they say to add limestone if PH is low but > in my case I have high Magnesium so I need to use HIGH calcium lime which is > harder to find than regular dolomite limestone. > > ATTRA has a list of soil testing agencies at > http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/soil-lab.html Has anybody used any of these > or can they recommend one that tests for conventional and bio activity, > preferably in the Eastern US. > > By the way, IMO the ATTRA article on BD has the potential to provide initial > BD education to more people than anything I have seen. > > Dan L > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 09:51:11 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01795 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:51:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11027; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:44:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10732 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:41:18 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp217.cy-net.net [208.21.195.26]) by mail.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA28279 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:46:41 -0600 Message-Id: <200001211446.IAA28279@mail.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:40:42 -0600 Subject: Dogs for the 20th Century Priority: normal In-reply-to: <004901bf63d0$4d518a00$7a13f4cc@bulkley.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3236 This is somewhat off topic for BD lists, but since dogs were brought up...... we have an Asian Shepherd, a kind of rare breed dog bred in Mongolia to travel with the goat and sheep herds. Unlike most guardian types, Sheba does not live exclusively with our animals. She is a devoted pet when not 'on duty', but at night when the coyotes call, she goes to her goats. Interesting, one trio of coyotes, she has seemingly allowed to become part of her protection. During milking, they have been brazen enough to come right up to the pasture near the parlour and Sheba will just look at them. These were the ones I wanted to ash for, but I think we may have more of a 'protection racket' between Sheba and the trio than if I ran them off. I have a house cat that hunts that field at night, and if the coyotes were to want easy prey, she'd be the first to go. Last summer, one of them 'showed' me where I'd lost my eyeglasses in a rough field, too. There is a larger pack that appears and will lead our Pyrenees off great distances. I've seen them circle back to the farmstead, and without Sheba at her post, I'm sure we'd have lost goats to this pack, and blamed it on our 'resident' trio. These dogs are big, a city yard wouldn't be appropriate for one, but most guardian breeds have that protective instinct. Even crows and deer are viewed as 'nonresident' by Sheba! (Unfortunately, she thinks all skunks are her barn cats, and we've had some wildly scented nights on occasion.) Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 10:10:36 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02252 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:10:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12373; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.bulkley.net (web1.vphos.net [207.102.129.200]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12335 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from cybernet ([204.244.19.105]) by web1.vphos.net ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:08:19 -0800 Message-ID: <00de01bf6421$991ee3a0$6913f4cc@bulkley.net> From: "J&J Clifford" To: References: <000001bf60cb$601cf000$42411ccb@kwi> Subject: Re: A good read Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:10:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3237 David et al I've an audio version of the series as aired on cbc radio Ideas program last winter. An 8 hr drive makes good use of it. Avail. through radioworks at cbc.ca Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: D & S Chamberlain To: BDNOW Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 1:01 AM Subject: Off: A good read > I have been reading "Naked Ape to Super Species" by David Suzuki & Holly > Dressel. Many of the discussions and threads on BDNOW over the last 12 > months are well covered, I recommend it as a good read and an excellent > compilation of the planets woes. > David Chamberlain > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 10:24:25 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02699 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:24:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13771; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:17:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13669 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:16:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d142.infoserve.net [199.175.157.142]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA21163 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:26:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001d01bf6423$ffcfbaa0$8e9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: 12 senses Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:24:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF63E0.968843C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3238 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF63E0.968843C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Glen, Here are some refs. for 12 senses: Luc/Ahr., Infl. on 12 Senses, 7 Life Procesess, Dornach, Sept. 2,3, = 1916,GA 170 Man's 12 Senses in Relation to Imag./Insp./Int. ,Dornach, Aug. 8. 1920. = GA 199 Michael ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF63E0.968843C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Glen,
 
Here are some refs. for 12 = senses:
 
Luc/Ahr., Infl. on 12 Senses, 7 Life = Procesess,=20 Dornach, Sept. 2,3, 1916,GA 170
Man's 12 Senses in Relation to = Imag./Insp./Int.=20 ,Dornach, Aug. 8. 1920. GA 199
 
Michael
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF63E0.968843C0-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 12:09:59 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04748 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:09:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25315; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:03:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24618 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:58:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.201] (pm3shep4-163-194.intrepid.net [209.190.163.194]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA08308 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:03:34 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:59:38 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Fwd: Unsung energies & signals.... -Reply Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3239 >Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:45:44 -0700 >From: Ted Rogers >Cc: bdnow@igg.com >Subject: Unsung energies & signals.... -Reply > >http://sacs.cpes.peachnet.edu/lewis/Home.htm > >Geoff, > >You don't really mean that we USDA slackers might actually do >something right once and a while. Surprise, surprise! > >Allan, please post > > >Best, > >Ted -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 16:20:00 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10342 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:20:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29261; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:13:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27112 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:07:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.201] (pm3shep3-163-158.intrepid.net [209.190.163.158]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05255 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:13:11 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:11:28 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Fwd: Re: Sally Fallon's/ organic and nutrition Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3240 Special to BD Now! >Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:51:12 EST >Subject: Re: Sally Fallon's/ organic and nutrition > >B12 Debate > >There is a form of B12 in plant foods but it is not available to humans and >some researchers believe that this B12 actually blocks the uptake of the >animal form. > >How do we know that B12 in plants is not absorbed. Consider the rabbits who >eat plant foods all day long. Do they absorb the B12 from the plants? No >they do not. To get their B12, the eat fermented rabbit pellets (I. e. their >own excrement.) > >Human groups who are largely vegetarian get their B12 from insects--either >small insects in their food (which can makeup as much as 10% of the food) or >larger insects they deliberately catch and eat. > >Vegans risk creating a lot of negative karma for themselves with the blithe >assurance that we can get B12 from plant food. The consequences of B12 >deficiency are very tragic. By the way, the article they quoted from was >written by Stephen Byrnes who has treated many former vegetarians who brought >themselves to the point of death on a vegan diet. Unfortunately, once the >damage from B12 deficiency goes too far, a complete recovery is not possible. > >Colin Campbell is a complete fool who makes claims for his China study that >are not true, and who is advocating a vegan death diet for growing children. > >Sally Fallon -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 16:20:00 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10343 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:20:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29409; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:14:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27167 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:07:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.201] (pm3shep3-163-158.intrepid.net [209.190.163.158]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05365 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:13:34 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4d.df1296.25ba0eb6@aol.com> References: <4d.df1296.25ba0eb6@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:17:00 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD Re: Sally Fallon on Salt Again Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3241 In response to Guillermo's request for documentation on Sally's assertion about salt color, trace minerals, etc, she has suggested the following books to read: >Hi think his best bet would be The Healing Power of Minerals by Paul Bergner. > Also there is the book on sea salt by Jacques de Langre. Sally -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 17:18:38 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11482 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:18:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA04961; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:12:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29792 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:17:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.201] (pm3shep3-163-158.intrepid.net [209.190.163.158]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA07789 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:22:52 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <67.df0e9a.25ba10d6@aol.com> References: <67.df0e9a.25ba10d6@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:17:59 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: FWD Re: Sally Fallon on sea salt (again) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3242 >According to Jacques de Langre, the microorgansims provide iodine in an >organic form that is better absorbed by the body. Sally -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 17:18:54 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11496 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:18:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05020; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29873 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:18:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.201] (pm3shep3-163-158.intrepid.net [209.190.163.158]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA07980 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:23:34 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:26:42 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: CALLING ALL COWS Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3243 CALLING ALL COWS: JANUARY 25 IS BEN & JERRY'S INDEPENDENCE DAY! The franchisees of Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream and the Coalition to Save Ben & Jerry's, an ad hoc citizens group, are mounting a national campaign to encourage the company to remain independent rather than sell out to the multi-national megaconglomerates ready to buy. At NOON on Tuesday, January 25, Ben & Jerry supporters, customers and, yes, even shareholders will gather at Ben & Jerry scoop shops across the country to show their support for keeping the company independent. Wavy Gravy, Patch Adams and other celebrities will be participating in the rallies along with herds of cows and schools of corporate sharks touting slogans such as "We're afraid of the $$$Dough Boys", "Save Ben and Jerry's," "Multi-flavor, not Multi-national," and "Don't Sell Out". Also joining the rallies are other business people in the socially responsible business community who are concerned about losing an important leader in the movement. Put on a cow suit and join the fun! For updated information, contact http://www.savebenjerry.com. Ben & Jerry's Independence Day rallies are being held at the following Scoop Shops: IN WASHINGTON DC 327 7th St SE Washington, DC 20007 Franchisee contact: Lori Johnston 202-965-2222 ext. 5 IN SAN FRANCISCO 1480 Haight St San Francisco, CA 94117 Franchisee contact: Roger Kaufman 415-249-4685, 415-249-4680 IN BOSTON 174 Newbury St Boston, MA 02116 Franchisee contact: Brian Galvin/Skip Schultz 617-536-5456 IN NEW YORK CITY, TIMES SQUARE 680 8th Avenue New York, NY 10036 Franchisee contact: Rosanne Hagarty 212-768-8989 IN SEATTLE 428 Broadway Avenue Seattle, WA 98102 Franchisee contact: Jim Ruggieri 206-726-9608 IN BALTIMORE 200 East Pratt St Baltimore, MD 21202 Franchisee contact: Dick Snow 703-660-8486 IN LOS ANGELES 10250 Santa Monica Blvd Century City, CA 90067 Franchisee contact: Michael Gale 310-788-9682, 310-546-1717 IN MONTEREAL 1316 De Maisonneuve St West Montreal Que H3G2B2 Franchisee contact: Morris Baker 514-345-6417 OTHER THINGS YOU CAN DO: - Visit http://www.savebenjerry.com - Send a letter to: Ben & Jerry's Board of Directors 191 Bank St. 3rd Fl. Burlington, VT 05401 - visit a scoop shop in your neighborhood and join the postcard campaign asking the Ben & Jerry's Board of Directors to keep the company independent. For a signed postcard you'll receive a free ice cream cone. For further information, contact the Coalition to Save Ben & Jerry's, in care of Judy Wicks at info@whitedog.com. Please help spread the word to other fans of Ben & Jerry's far and wide. Thank you for your support. Judy Wicks White Dog Cafe 3420 Sansom St, Philadelphia PA 19104 Email: info@whitedog.com Web: http://www.whitedog.com The Black Cat Gift Shop 3426 Sansom St, Philadelphia PA 19104 Email: blackcat@whitedog.com Web: http://www.blackcatshop.com -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 20:25:30 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14060 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:25:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18419; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:19:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18147 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:13:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([203.96.109.8]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000122011901.ISIM3144.mta3-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:19:01 +1300 Message-ID: <388905E5.421C@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:20:38 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: What would BD be in the future References: <4.3.0.25.20000112151352.00a843f0@swva.net> <4.3.0.25.20000113212326.00a93ec0@swva.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3244 > > Dear Glen, > The three spheres of society that Steiner distinguished could be > called the economic, the political, and the cultural. (I prefer to avoid > the word 'spiritual' because there is actually a spiritual aspect to *all* > the spheres.) Steiner considered agriculture to be basis of the whole > economic sphere, and this includes all producers, consumers and > distributors. Demeter, however, is none of these but rather a regulator, > so I would include it in the political or governmental sphere. The BDA's > should be fostering education and research and so should belong to the > cultural sphere. Does that make sense? Yes thank you If only the model you suggest could be what is happening. The problem comes where we have the blurring of these lines. Such as when the BDAs become involved in sale of preps running advisory services and peoples incomes become dependant on the BDAs income. Education and 'free' research become the victum in favour of individuals economic survival. Or when the BDAs become dominated by the producers needs and the ethos arises that only farmers have rights. It would appear there is still a need for a further separation between the economic and research. At present the BDAs are trying to be both economic and cultural??????? This is an interesting way you describe this. Very much a earthly realm. I guess what I have been calling 'spiritual' is what you are calling cultural. Thank you - regards Glen A From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 20:29:39 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14105 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:29:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18667; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:23:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18622 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:23:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([203.96.109.8]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000122012817.ITFT3144.mta3-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:28:17 +1300 Message-ID: <38890812.4A5@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:29:54 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNOW Subject: peppering Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3245 > Now you need to take one drop of this and add to your spray tank (whatever > size) shake and spray around the border of the area and in it if possible of > the animals habitat. Cheryl Can you provide some idea of how often this method and dose rate has provided success please? It seems a radically small dose rate for X potencies. Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 21 23:08:02 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15530 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 23:08:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA28165; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 23:01:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28071 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:59:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.207] (du-148-233-78-207.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOP009ABXXWB5@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:03:34 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:03:36 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: FWD Re: Sally Fallon on Salt Again In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <4d.df1296.25ba0eb6@aol.com> <4d.df1296.25ba0eb6@aol.com> X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3246 >In response to Guillermo's request for documentation on Sally's >assertion about salt color, trace minerals, etc, she has suggested >the following books to read: > >>Hi think his best bet would be The Healing Power of Minerals by Paul Bergner. >> Also there is the book on sea salt by Jacques de Langre. Sally > >-- Many thanks Allan: This pointers would be very helpfull, please extend my thanks to Ms. Fallon, I had no idea where to start looking for specific info. Warm greetings Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 22 12:54:37 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21490 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:54:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04338; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:47:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.45]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04250 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:47:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.139] (du-148-233-78-139.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOR00CLG08CJC@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:50:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:52:08 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Sally Fallon B12 and Organic In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <67.df0e9a.25ba10d6@aol.com> <67.df0e9a.25ba10d6@aol.com> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3247 >Colin Campbell is a complete fool who makes claims for his China study that >are not true, and who is advocating a vegan death diet for growing >children. > >Sally Fallon Interesting way to confront an argument Ms. Fallon. Thanks Allan for cross-posting the article on B12 from SANET. Regards Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 22 18:38:22 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA24624 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:38:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA27535; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:32:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27323 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:28:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.18] (pm3shep1-163-18.intrepid.net [209.190.163.18]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA31203; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:33:55 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:38:22 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Sally Fallon on B12 Cc: Jerry Collette Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3248 B12: I read the email from Guillermo more carefully last night, after having dined on red meat and lard. The uneducated public, of course, will have dined on margarine and veggie burgers. I hope he will read the introduction to Nourishing Traditions in order to educate himself as to the health benefits of red meat and lard. His basic argument seems to be that our ancestors were vegetarians. Actually our putative ancestors--monkeys, apes, etc--were all omnivores and in fact, when they didn't get enough meat, they went bizerk and rampaging--a clear sign of B12 deficiency. (Irrational anger is an early sign of B12 deficience in humans). As a student of anthroposophy and theosophy, I don't buy into the Darwinian evolution arguments, and I think a much better argument for the vegetarians is that we do NOT come from the animals, but that we are divine beings on a spiritual path, temproarily housed in a physical body for the purposes of soul development. This argument for vegetarianism has more truth in it but it can also be dangerous. I believe that one day we WILL be vegetarians, that we will be able to draw down enough of the cosmic forces so as to be able to make our own B12, vitamin A, vitamin D, etc. But that time has not yet arrived, at least not for most of us and I bristle when vegetarians imply that they are more spiritual or more advanced than meat eaters. We all made vows before coming into embodiment that we would accomplish certain tasks on earth and in order to do so, we need to consume a diet that keeps the physical body healthy and in good repair. For the vast majoriety of us that means a diet rich in animal products, including red meat and lard. Sally Fallon -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 22 18:42:35 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA24653 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA28141; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:36:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27971 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:33:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.18] (pm3shep1-163-18.intrepid.net [209.190.163.18]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA32200 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:39:30 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38808859.380D@bright.net> References: <50.84f1fc.25b0a21a@aol.com> <38808859.380D@bright.net> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:43:52 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Workshop Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3249 >I wanted to let the group know of an upcoming daylong workshop on >alternative production practices being put on by Ohio Ecological Food >and Farm Association and Wilmington College on Feb. 5. Gene Logsdon, Rex >Spray, and Charlie Eselgroth will be presenting. These are organic >growers. I would be glad to forward the flyer by email to anybody who >might be interested.Cost is $30 with lunch provided. Thanks for posting this, Marilyn. One of my commitments for this coming year is to wrestle Gene Logsdon in public. This looks like just the opportunity. Please send me a flyer and, right off, do you know 'where' this conference is being held and how far from the Morgantown, WV it is? Thanks -Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 22 23:00:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26955 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 23:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA11135; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 22:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA11071 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 22:53:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca130.vthokies.net [206.153.172.130]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04409 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 22:32:08 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.0.29.1.20000122215222.00a57dd0@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.29 (Beta) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 22:59:55 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: gardner Subject: Re: mineral accumulators In-Reply-To: <008301bf62b9$04ced980$a88a6dcb@siesta> References: <38829CB8.5CA8@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3250 At 09:08 AM 1/20/00 +1300, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Glen Atkinson > > Can we deduct from the chart that as nutrient accumulators these weeds > > would actually grow best where the soil is deficient in these elements? > >The short answer is yes and no :>) >It would be a good place to start by adding to areas lacking minerals. But >some plants do grow well in areas high in minerals. There is a name for them >which slips me at present. What they do is collect excess mineral content >from the soils. An example are those used on saline soils to remove some of >the salinity. Also you have the case of scotch thistle (cirsium vulgare) >which may be growing on areas of low K, but their main function on that site >may be to heal the soil after damage. >My understanding is that most of the plants on the list would put in more >than they take out. > >Regards > >Ian Buckingham >Maungatawhiri >New Zealand Ian, I am a little confused here. You seem to be distinguishing between "accumulators" (which accumulate certain elements in their tissues even when they are scarce in the soil) and "super-accumulators" (which accumulate certain elements even when they are abundant in the soil). On the other hand, you speak of some (most?) plants "putting in more than they take out". What are these, "negative accumulators"? Are they accumulating elements from the atmosphere? I would be grateful if you would elaborate a little further on your understanding of the dynamics involved here. Malcolm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 00:56:20 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA27782 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 00:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA18347; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 00:50:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.71]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA18144 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 00:45:29 -0500 (EST) From: Andyschad@aol.com Received: from Andyschad@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.4.ad918c (4229) for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 00:50:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4.ad918c.25bbf0ac@aol.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 00:50:36 EST Subject: Re: Comments From Demeter To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 47 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3251 Dear list ' I too have heard the word "Fractal" in a number of overs now and am curious to know what it is. Can anyone help? Andreas PA From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 02:55:35 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA28410 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 02:55:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA23424; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 02:49:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from cobalt3-he.global.net.uk (cobalt3-he.global.net.uk [195.147.246.163]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA23383 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 02:48:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from pd7s06a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.230.216] helo=compaq) by cobalt3-he.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12CHpn-0004Q2-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 23:53:20 -0800 Message-ID: <388AB22A.620E@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 07:47:54 +0000 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3252 Allan Balliett wrote: > > B12: I read the email from Guillermo more carefully last night, after having > dined on red meat and lard. The uneducated public, of course, will have > dined on margarine and veggie burgers. I hope he will read the introduction > to Nourishing Traditions in order to educate himself as to the health > benefits of red meat and lard. > > His basic argument seems to be that our ancestors were vegetarians. Actually > our putative ancestors--monkeys, apes, etc--were all omnivores and in fact, > when they didn't get enough meat, they went bizerk and rampaging--a clear > sign of B12 deficiency. (Irrational anger is an early sign of B12 deficience > in humans). > > As a student of anthroposophy and theosophy, I don't buy into the Darwinian > evolution arguments, and I think a much better argument for the vegetarians > is that we do NOT come from the animals, but that we are divine beings on a > spiritual path, temproarily housed in a physical body for the purposes of > soul development. This argument for vegetarianism has more truth in it but > it can also be dangerous. I believe that one day we WILL be vegetarians, > that we will be able to draw down enough of the cosmic forces so as to be > able to make our own B12, vitamin A, vitamin D, etc. But that time has not > yet arrived, at least not for most of us and I bristle when vegetarians imply > that they are more spiritual or more advanced than meat eaters. We all made > vows before coming into embodiment that we would accomplish certain tasks on > earth and in order to do so, we need to consume a diet that keeps the > physical body healthy and in good repair. For the vast majoriety of us that > means a diet rich in animal products, including red meat and lard. > > Sally Fallon > -- Good to hear your comments, what ever you like to do Good on you! For me I am a vegan,have been for 21 years,and have become stronger and wiser as I have grown older.I have in the past 3 years taken to colloidal minerals,I do believe all of us what ever our chosen path is now, have to reach for the mineral bottle, but as to sampling the flesh of animals,I think that should be our individual choice and if we are prepared to catch, kill and process them ourselves,then thats for those who do that,then enjoy but don't start ranting on about what harm I am doing to myself or my children. Incidentally B12 is made up of Cobalt, and there is now evidence from studies in Australia that the mineral Cobalt is no longer so bio-available in our precious earth and so that animals you eat may not have this precious commodity you speak of either,this is animal based study where it has been found that cows have lacked B12! Oh dear that could throw your theory out the window too. It is quite true the first vegans died of malnutrition,but things have moved on a great deal since then,supplementation is possible and fermented foods are available.As I reach my 57th year owning a completely Organic Shop introducing 25% Biodynamically produced goods by this year end,being without any arthritis, working studying,singing writing poems,being a clown and generally feeling great that I have found such a wonderful group of people on the world wide web I thank whoever for pointing me towards a vegan diet,because before I began I had arthritic pain,I was short of breath,I couldn't walk very far without pain in my legs,one of my kidneys was weak,I was losing my hair like crazy,it was almost grey,and I had forgotten how to laugh, now this may all sound mumbo jumbo to you,it is my personal experience but since I would never catch,kill and prepare an animal to eat myself I would'ntexpect society to pay someone else to do what I could'nt or wouldn't do myself.I believe it is important to live one's life which ever way they feel it is best for them.The graveyards I am sure contains meat eaters and vegans,and now organic meat eaters,so thanks for your posting Let time tell us more Rex Tyler -- ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 07:51:14 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29748 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 07:51:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA01796; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 07:44:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01743 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 07:44:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.58] (pm3shep1-163-58.intrepid.net [209.190.163.58]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA23578 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 07:50:07 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <67.df0e9a.25ba10d6@aol.com> <67.df0e9a.25ba10d6@aol.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 07:54:21 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: A "Disgustion" and some questions for the Group was Re: Sally Fallon B12 and Organic Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3253 Dear Friends - I invited Sally Fallon to this discussion group with a promise that it would be good, light, thought provoking fun. Sally bills herself as 'politically incorrect,' so she is used to a little controversy and she does pinch noses ocassionally. She is also an extremely busy person, giving tirelessly of herself to many of the sustainable ag conferences. In a little more than a year, she has spoken at ACRES, at an anthroposophic food conference in Kimberton, will be at the big homeopathic 'food' conference in PA in a couple of months, has spoken at my mid-atlantic conference, and will speak at Jeff Poppen's conference this fall, is hosting a traditional foods conference in Washington DC (think about that one!) and has promised an update on her work on Oct 1st at the 5th Annual Mid-Atlantic BD conference here where I'm sitting as I write this. She's also just started the Weston A. Price foundation, one of the few non-aligned groups 'out there' that openly advocates for biodynamically produced vegetables, dairy and meat. She is setting up a system for networking the health store public with local natural growers. Furthermore, she is one of the stronger forces in our culture that is calling for a recapturing of the traditional methods of food preservation and preparation before they slip away in the stream of time and are lost forever Sally certainly doesn't expect everyone to agree with what she says, but she didn't enter BD Now! to take part in a documented debate. She came to provoke a little thought and has been kind enough to give a few pointers to other people's work. Dear friends, please forgive her if she cannot give more of herself to the traditional whole foods movement. I guess I assumed too much of members of this group when I promised her that she would be treated respectfully and that she would be within an audience that shared many values with her. Given my 'promises,' she was willing to share some of her spiritual life with us and give us some of her cosmology in a way that wouldn't play too well outside a group like BD Now!, which gathers, for the most part, people who sense that there is much more to life than the government funded educational institutions teach us. And relish to share themselves with a group that carries like sensibilities. Now that trust has been violated in a most spiteful way. Spiritual sensibilities of this prominent alternative author have been x-posted to SANET (a government funded educational institution), which, historically (I admit, not so much recently) has had an extension agent level of toleration of spiritual sensibility. What an unfortunately cheap and disrespectful shot. And what for? In a request for more 'academic documentation'? What a regretful migration from God's gift of intuition for a discussion here on BD Now! A few days ago I had private mail to a member of this list x-posted in a rage to other members of this list. For me, and many others, one of the greatest violations of trust on the internet is the re-distribution of private mail. Once again, this is a matter of intuition, most people knowing this without being told. One is always shocked that some people lack the innate kernels of decency that makes this an apriori courtesy for the rest of us. But one never knows when someone 'needs to be told' until they need to be told. For me, on the internet, someone who repeatedly violates common trust is like a driver who prefers the freedom to drive in either lane on two lane blacktop. The damage they can potentially create is well beyond any intention of their own and yet it originates from their inappropriate feeling that they are above community 'agreements.' An impratical assumption that the rest of us can be forced to pay for at any moment. Hence, these onanistic drivers need to be removed from the highway, and, a perhaps treated regularly with B-12 injections. In the near future, I've been promised a visit to this list by Permaculture pioneer, Bill Mollison and another by Seeds of Change founder Howard Shapiro. If we're lucky, we're going to get John Trudell heartspeaking through this list later in the year. Is this a burden to members of BD Now? Am I incorrect in assuming that it's a pleasure and a welcomed change to have access to a primary source for a few days a few times a year? (I mean, we did, afterall, have Reichian James DeMeo and Phil Challahan's protege on this list for quite some time with nary a question from the group..maybe there is no interest in hearing from experts in related fields.) Please let me know as soon as possible. Perhaps it is I who have lost contact with intuition. Disappointed, -Allan Balliett moderator BD Now! > >Colin Campbell is a complete fool who makes claims for his China study that >>are not true, and who is advocating a vegan death diet for growing >>children. >> >>Sally Fallon > >Interesting way to confront an argument Ms. Fallon. > >Thanks Allan for cross-posting the article on B12 from SANET. > > >Regards > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 08:43:05 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA00036 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:43:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03797; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:36:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03709 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:35:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-132.s132.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.132] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12CNFe-0005yi-00; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:40:23 -0500 Message-ID: <388B051C.E532ECDA@erols.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:41:48 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Workshop References: <50.84f1fc.25b0a21a@aol.com> <38808859.380D@bright.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3254 Allan wrote: Not nude mud wrestling, I hope?!?!?????? I saw enough of that in college! R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 09:30:38 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00428 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:30:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06264; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:24:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06200 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:23:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha08s084.d.shentel.net [204.111.55.84]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06331 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:30:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <388B0FD7.E5D4A75C@LightExpression.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:27:35 -0500 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bio-Dynamic List Subject: BD and Nature Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3255 Greetings All! We hope that your weekend is going well. Several months ago, we were approached by a friend, Kathryn Dagostino , who writes on various topics and who has a love for Bio-Dynamic gardening and agriculture as well as a total respect for the Natural Kingdom. Kathryn asked if we would mind being interviewed on the work which we do here at Light Expression Farm which includes the growing of various crops for various purposes. The following is the article which is the result of that interview. The article has been submitted to a well known BD publication to be published, and both Kathryn and ourselves agree that it would be fitting to share the information of this article with a few different internet groups in order to promote both BD concepts and the intertwining of the Natural Kingdoms. We hope that you enjoy the article and if you feel so inclined to share it with other groups, please feel free to do so -- with all of the text of this writing in tact for proper credit. We thank you! Wayne and Sharon ********** Wayne and Sharon McEachern work in partnership with Nature at Light Expression Farm in the northern Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. (For those who do not know, Nature is the angelic consciousness which governs the 3rd dimensional "natural" plane.) The farm is composed of 55 acres of fields, 13 acres of woods, and about 10 acres, including a horse pasture, surrounding their Victorian farmhouse. They view Light Expression Farm as “a place to make essences (at the total direction of Divinity / Nature) and a place for people to come to experience working with Nature.” Sharon has been making Light Expression Essences here since 1991, growing the plants that are made into essences biodynamically. They also use Biodynamic preps and compost on their fields and vegetable garden. Wayne and Sharon spoke about using Biodynamics in their farming, gardening, and business. They discuss how Biodynamics, combined with the use of essences, enhances the process of co-creating with Nature. Co-creation can be defined as allowing Nature to be part of the decision-making process, taking advantage of its intelligence to obtain direction and advice. K: How did you find out about Biodynamics? S: When we first moved here in 1989, a friend that we'd met was working with BD. We were talking about co-creative gardening and he was talking about BD gardening. Although he understood that BD had a more cosmic component, he was more focused on the linear steps of using it. But we were talking about co-creative gardening and connecting with Nature in more of a free-flowing way, the way I work. That created some opposing points of view; it took us a long time to realize that what we were doing was very similar. But at the time I wasn't getting the “linear-ness” of the preps – the BD concepts as he was relating them – and he wasn't getting the non-linear way of working with Nature that we were talking about. It took quite a few years for us to finally come together. Then Wayne started going to some of the Biodynamic conferences. We knew we needed to go beyond organic. W: The main reason for considering Biodynamics is because we’d determined that it works, and that it was low input to provide high output. With 55 acres of fields we can't come close to providing all the individual nutrients that Nature would prescribe for us to do with these fields. So we're sort of in an experiment to see how we can incorporate Biodynamic preps into the field work. We started out by using them in the garden, and it was interesting that Nature said, "It's fine to integrate the preps into the program." So we brought the Biodynamics in to work toward breaking the soil then building the soil in addition to Nature's input of prescribing a long and meaningful list of nutrients. These would be incorporated into to the soil in addition to the Biodynamic preps. We found that it's not a program, from Nature's view, anyway, that you do just one or just the other; rather, it's the combination of both which is preferred. S: And every time you offer more options to Nature, it will weed through – no pun intended – what it is that will best suit your garden and what the intention is of the garden, not necessarily what your intention is for the garden. Once you've opened to Nature, it’s what Nature's understanding of the intention is. Sometimes it's not what you're thinking it's going to be, but you've opened up and said to Nature, "OK, what's the best scenario for this garden? I'm asking your input on doing my work." And you may get something completely different from what you might have thought! This is a process of surrender to the advice of this consciousness. So we started adding the preps. I also add essences to the preps. When Wayne and I are getting ready to do the stirring, I'll ask, "Are there any essences that need to go in here for specific gardens, or the field?” and we'll add the prescribed essences to the prep solution. Even though the primary purpose of the essences is to contribute to the healing and transformation of our human energetic form and consciousness, we have found that they are desired in earth healing -- farming and gardening included. K: People reading this may say, "It sounds interesting to ask Nature for help,” but it may be something new to them. What is the process you go through when you're co-creating with Nature? S: When I'm asking Nature for help, I'm connecting with the overlighting Deva of the garden or of a specific field. Each of the fields has an overlighting Deva. So you go to the boundaries of the area that you're working in – we have an overlighting Deva of the farm, of the vegetable garden. Every one of the essence gardens has an overlighting Deva of it, there's a collective overlighting Deva for the eight fields, and then there's an overlighting Deva for each specific field. The same with the woods. So I'll go to the specific overlighting Deva, which is the "entity", we'll call it, the energy that holds the blueprint for that intention within those boundaries. Even if you're working with flowers in a pot, there's an overlighting Deva of it and then there are elementals for the individual plants that go in it. So I connect with the overlighting Deva for whatever garden structure I'm working with. I will also connect with the overlighting Deva of soil, which is planetary (not specific to just one particular piece of land) but brings in the specific information for the area that you're working with. I'll go to the overlighting Deva of BD preps, bring in my higher self, Wayne's if he's working with me, and then start asking questions so that I'm getting the input of everything that is involved in the area we're working with. W: Usually we use dowsing as a tool for communication; even though some people work with kinesiology, it's good to use some type of tool. Some people are fortunate enough to be open to hearing the communication. Most people are going to say they can't, even though they probably are hearing the information. Nonetheless, it’s good to have a medium for communication. K: What are the types of questions you might ask when you're preparing the beds? S: This is where that linear process comes in. You need to be able to do it when you're working intuitively on any level with anything. Because if you're not asking questions that get “yes-no” responses and that follow a train of thought, you'll get lost in the ozone and can get crossed information. But I'll ask just basic questions, such as, "Today...can we do this today?" Sometimes you might want to ask that ahead of time. You ask, "Which of these preps?", "Are we going to add anything to these preps?", "Is there anything different that's going to take place in the mixing of the preps than it may say on the instructions?" W: We’ll also ask questions about the timing. Sometimes you may get an answer that you might need to stir less than an hour, sometimes more. S: It depends on if you're adding essences, or if you're strictly working with preps. Once you've connected with everybody to get the specifics of the piece of land or garden that you're working with, then they can specifically "tune-up" the mixing of the preps. So I ask those questions, because if you don't need to be standing there stirring for an hour, you can move on. If an hour isn't going to do it for whatever purpose that the energy needs to be stirred into that prep mix, you may need to add an extra 15 minutes or whatever. I find generally it's less time, when I'm working co-creatively. But that's not a rule, it's just what I've found. You'd ask questions such as, "Do we need to add any supplements to the garden or field prior to putting the preps on, or after" – basic gardening or planting techniques, things that you would want to know about involving adding the preps. If you're planning a field of beans you may know of a certain list of nutrients that may need to be put into the soil. If you go the route of having your soil tested, check to see if what came back from the lab is really what the soil needs. You may find that there are slight differences, if you were to ask Nature. There is a long list which we work from which includes natural "organic" nutrients which are offered in this process. If you would like to know more about this list, feel free to contact us for information. W: We have a neighbor who works with us in our farming. We don't have time to deal with farming on a full scale at this time. We changed one field over one year to an alfalfa hay crop. It was interesting...while we were planning this field change, he (our farming neighbor) came over and we were in the field talking about what we were going to do and he said, "Well, I'll get the Co-op to come out and take a sample of the soil." He did so, and in the meantime, Sharon said, "Let's figure out what we need." She did a quick check right after our friend left and determined by connecting with Nature that the field needed one ton of lime per acre in the top one inch of soil for the planting we were proposing. After three weeks I called the neighbor to find out if he'd gotten the results back from the Co-op. I said, "What we're getting – I didn't say who we were connecting with or where the information was coming from – is that we need a ton of lime per acre in the top one inch of soil." His response was, "Did you come over here and look at my mail? The results just came back from the lab today and what we need is a ton of lime per acre in the top one inch of soil!" We were just about floored! But the afternoon we wanted the information we had it. And he's three weeks later with the same results. But things like that are really validating. It shows that Nature is definitely one aspect of consideration that shouldn’t be left out of the process! S: And you don't have to be bashful about connecting with this consciousness. You do get the information – I think that's the hardest thing for people to realize. When I’m working co-creatively I tend to hear the information. Then I use dowsing or kinesiology to verify what I'm hearing just to make sure I didn't go off on a tangent. Dowsing or kinesiology is a really good method to keep bringing your mind focused back to a single thought as opposed to the way I sometimes work – I'll see things or hear things and go out in diverging areas that I call “finger-tangents”. Connecting with dowsing helps me to bring all these different shades of a thought back into a single point. And from that point I can take a more linear approach toward coming up with something we can go to the store and purchase. Sometimes I'll see things in terms of energy rather than as lime, sulfur or dolomite. But people working with dowsing can put a list of supplements in front of them and ask, yes or no, "Do I need this one, do I need that one?" “If I’m using the BD preps, do I need more or less of them?" Once you connect with Nature and you're working with preps, what comes back from the lab can change, and it does change. K: Do you make Biodynamic compost? W: Yes. Last year's Biodynamic compost was a very successful experiment trial for us here. In the fall we collected leaves, they weren't chewed up or anything. We had some scrappy hay that was of no value, and we threw it into the compost pile, we had some horse manure that we'd cleaned out of our stable here and we had a little bit of cow manure that our friend had offered us. We put all this in layers in a pile about 16 feet long, about six or so feet high and probably about 15 feet in width. It was a huge pile and I used my skid loader tractor to help make the pile. We used the BD preps and we put one element of essences that were requested in there. We did the things as prescribed by the standard method, and the results were amazing! The compost was packed full of earthworms. We'd have to be careful of the temperature, so I went out occasionally and took the skid loader with forks and lifted the pile to get more air in. At times we would mix the pile a little bit. It's a little different than some of the prescribed methods for making a compost pile, but nonetheless that's what I felt I should do. In less than five months, it had completely reduced. The results are just beautiful. It was a really neat experiment. We still have yet to build another pile. We have enough compost to get by with this garden for this year, but shortly we'll need to prepare a new one. It's on the list. I was very impressed with the compost preps – just get a set of compost preps, go through the procedure, a couple of things needed to be stirred. So we stirred those and had them all ready, then put those seven preps into the pile, and let it go! S: Here, again, it's a good idea to ask Nature if you need to add essences to any of them. The essences and preps work in a complementary way. We add essences to the preps and BD compost at Nature's direction. In turn, the compost is dug into and Barrel Compost and BD 500 are sprayed on the gardens that are established for the essence production! W: I sprayed the Body/Soul Essence Garden with these solutions about two years ago and the plants went wild! I was amazed at the plants' vitality, even in a dry year. S: Nature didn’t request to have a lot of supplements to be added to the initial garden construction. Wayne broke up the shaley soil with the tractor, but it was still very rough soil. We added some compost in a few areas and a few supplements, but most of the 24 gardens were left in their original condition. Once we put the preps in, things took off! K: What specific ways can you tell that preps have made a difference? S: Life vitality. When I see the plants, I see that they have a bigger auric field around them. The auric field of the fields themselves is bigger after putting the preps on. All those fields also have essences added to them. Not having used just the preps alone, I'm not sure how adding the essences to them have changed the energy of the preps. But in general, everything has a more dynamic growing energy about them from having used the preps as opposed to not using the preps, and even as opposed to just using the essences along with supplements. Using the preps and essences together gives a deeper root system on a physical level and increases the life force radiating from the plants. W: At the end of the first year we used preps on the vegetable garden, as I was digging potatoes and turning the soil, I found the soil completely riddled by earthworms. You could see all the worm trails in the soil, and that was impressive! You want earthworm activity and there was a lot of it in the garden. It had increased substantially from previous years. S: Nature likes working with the preps. It goes beyond working organically. We've always made compost and we've always connected with Nature to add whatever supplements that the soil is lacking. This farm was in production a long time before we got here and I'm sure they'd added commercial fertilizers, pesticides and things like that. The soil has probably been worked for 100 years, and in the last 20 years it was probably more chemical farming, which destroyed the structure and beneficial materials in the soil real fast. We've been working on getting that back. K: Can you see any difference in disease or pests? S: I don't know if it's a good thing, but…after having done several years of Biodynamics, we hosted some of the best bugs we've ever had! This was at a time when I heard from Nature to change the garden to raised beds. So we were building a new garden and planting simultaneously. There was a very disruptive energy going on. People commented, "You say you're working with Nature, but you've got bugs that look like they're eating everything! But that year I canned much more than we needed. Could have done more if I'd had more time. Beautiful vegetables, great-tasting food, no problems. But with the balancing and shifting going on out there – it was disruptive, it was a new garden, a new energy was coming into the garden to go along with this new design. With all of that combined it looked very "thrown up in the air" from an energetic point of view. It was so out of balance in so many ways that it was a beacon for bugs because it looked not-in-harmony. As the garden was "coming down" into physical reality, even though the bugs were settling into the plants that were growing in there and the plants getting adjusted to their beds, there was still a balance. The plants were able to get enough energy from all the things we'd added to the garden – the essences, the preps, all the extra supplements. The bugs got what they wanted and I ended up getting more than I needed. W: After the ‘98 growing season when the new construction was in place, we went back in to till the garden. Before tilling we were given by Nature a large list of supplements to add to each bed. Not across-the-board, because each garden is being prepared by Nature for those specific plants that would be added to each bed this year. S: And at this point, we are preparing beds for next year's garden and we have no idea as what will be planted in those individual beds. W: We get out of the way and surrender to Nature's plan, outside of making a request for certain vegetables or particular plants within a variety that we'd like to go into the garden somewhere. Nature takes over from that point, saying, "OK, we'll take into consideration those things that you want," within the design Nature has already put into place. Sharon's only asked Nature for, and gotten information about one aspect of the program – the list of plants and seeds that we need to purchase for the garden. The next process is to sit down and take the plan for the garden, which is 13 beds, and find out which plants go into which beds. Nature already has the program set, all we have to do is go to that "database" and get that information out at the time we need it. It takes a load off of us; we don't have to worry about this left-brain input and planning the heck out of this garden. Nature does it all! S: For example, one garden would be getting a list of supplements that might go into it and I'd get very specific amounts for each supplement to put into each garden. Then there would be gardens that would get a completely different list of supplements, and gardens that would get nothing. Some would get the BD compost; some wouldn't get it, or some would get it at different times than others would. I don't know at this time what plants are going in these gardens. I’ve ordered seeds, and I'll go back during the time the seeds are germinating and I'm getting plants together, and ask, "OK, what goes in here?" So instead of long-term planning and deciding what goes in the garden, which dictates what supplements you think you should add to support them, we put the supplements in and then Nature tells us what plants will go in the gardens. So we do it almost backwards from the way it's usually done. But I don't have to spend time thinking about what will go into the gardens and what they’ll need. Nature has the plan. K: What kinds of preps do you use on the fields? W: We've only done it one time, last fall. We did the Pfeiffer spray because it was the least labor-intensive, although it cost a lot of money for four fields of roughly eight acres each. We applied that last year because we needed something on the fields. We didn't want to go the chicken litter route again because we didn't find it to be too productive. So we're waiting to see what happens this year with the spraying we’ve done. I’d like to point out that contrary to what some people may say about the Biodynamic preps attracting Nature Spirits – like setting a trap for them – Nature Spirits are always available and willing to work with you; it's only a matter of connecting with them and requesting their input. So people can go beyond their limitations if they're willing to bring Nature in to their gardening and farming program. S: Preps and essences don't attract the elementals or Devas; they're already there. It's your awareness and your level of consciousness that allows you to recognize that they're there. It's actually the other way around. You're not putting anything out and saying, "Come on, guys." They're waiting for you to catch on that you can work with them. At any point that you want to connect with Nature, Nature is saying, "And you finally figured out that we're here!" K: What’s next for Light Expression Farm? W: We'd like for the Farm to progress to a teaching and growing center where people work with areas of the fields to do a co-creative growing process which incorporates essences, Biodynamic preps, and nothing without the communication and input of Nature. We plan to bring all those things together as a teaching center as well as a growing center. S: To actually walk onto a place where the energy has been tuned-up and set into motion, so that people can one, experience the difference; and two, to begin to open to that level of communication between their conscious level, their subconscious level and their higher self. They can start to feel it, work with it, and take it back having been right in the middle of it, instead of sitting at home reading a book about it. Mentally they get it but they haven't felt it, they haven't walked into it, and they haven't been "hands-on" through the techniques. It’s very different when you're sitting at home reading a book and your "baggage" is right there with you. You can still go off in very ego-oriented directions. But if you have a chance to actually get in the middle of this energy exchange, you're going to be able to bring it into your heart center a whole lot faster, probably with less of your own encumbrances, and with someone there to guide you. Then you go home and work on it. That's really the point that the Farm is trying to get to, being that kind of resource for people who want to take a day or several days to step into it. For more information about Light Expression Essences and learning how to co-create with Nature, contact: Light Expression Essences, P.O. Box 71, Woodstock, VA, 22664, (540) 459-2061, email Essences@LightExpression.com, or http://www.LightExpression.com. -- *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 09:35:15 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00467 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:35:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06535; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:29:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06282 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:25:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.58] (pm3shep1-163-48.intrepid.net [209.190.163.48]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA02282 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:30:39 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:31:23 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Fwd: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3256 For clarification: I have not problem with respectful rebuttle. I'm not asking everyone to agree with everything that is put forward by any means. On the other hand, don't ask her to spend a lot of time and effort documenting her assertions. Read her book, or take her assertions or leave them. It's outside of the spirit of this relationship to ask her to supply footnotes (dammit!) Thanks -Allan >Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:44:06 EST >Subject: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 >To: igg@igg.com > >I consider that B12 requirements cannot be fulfilled by plant foods under any >circumstances. > >When Steiner talked about vegetarianism, he was talking about replacing meat >with milk--and raw milk at that--and not about going on a vegan diet. I have >no problems with lacto-ovo vegetarianism as long as those practicing it can >obtain raw milk products. (B12 is destroyed by pasteurization.) However, I >would hope that vegetarians who are not doing well on milk products, or their >children are not growing properly, would have the humility to include some >other animal foods in their diet. > >I am not a nutritionist and have never claimed to be. My co-author Mary Enig >is a PhD in nutrition science. The statements I make about nutrition are >backed by references, given at the end of the introduction to Nourishing >Traditions. > >Sally Fallon -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 10:04:04 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00667 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:04:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07956; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:57:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07846 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:55:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-164-223-23.s23.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.223.23] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12COVe-0003w6-00; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:00:58 -0500 Message-ID: <388B17FF.DA5196F7@erols.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:02:23 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3257 Allan: Would you please publish the titles of Sally's book. I, for one, would like to read them! I'm sure I'll have more questions afterwards, but will direct them to Sally herself. R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 10:22:53 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00783 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:22:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08773; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:16:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08653 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:15:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-164-223-23.s23.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.223.23] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12COp1-0005Zl-00; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:20:59 -0500 Message-ID: <388B1CB0.44186DCD@erols.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:22:24 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "BD Now! Listserve" Subject: Sally Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3258 Allan: I didn't realize Guillermo had cross-posted to SANET without permission. But I'm sure he didn't mean to offend - he was just expanding the debate! And debate is what we need. I did think that we were being encouraged to enter into debate with Sally, which I have done. You don't think that's inappropriate, do you? As I stated, what better forum to do it? She DOES need to present her research - because I (and many others) DO want to believe her. As you pointed out, it IS intuitive (I said that, too). But intuition wants facts to feel good about itself. Then it is relieved! I think it's great that you're going to have Howard and Bill Mollison and - John Trudell. One of my very favorite performers!!! But if they say something challenging, you have to expect people to respond -yes? R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 11:34:52 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01300 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:34:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12718; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:28:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net (spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net [207.108.48.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12550 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:25:34 -0500 (EST) From: d2allen@uswest.net Received: (qmail 6761 invoked by alias); 23 Jan 2000 16:31:17 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-bdnow@envirolink.org@fixme Received: (qmail 6743 invoked by uid 0); 23 Jan 2000 16:31:16 -0000 Received: from dialupj216.uswest.net.spkn.uswest.net (HELO pop.spkn.uswest.net) (63.224.210.216) by spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net with SMTP; 23 Jan 2000 16:31:16 -0000 Message-ID: <388B2A28.26DA7C6F@pop.spkn.uswest.net> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:19:52 -0800 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {U S WEST.net} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: References: <388B07F3.43427AA4@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3259 Robert Farr wrote: > Guillermo: > > You've echoed my sentiments exactly in your thoughtful post! > > While I enjoyed Sally Fallon's lecture at the BD conference - and tend > to be in "gut-fee" agreement regarding the need to avoid many soy > products, I, too, am concerned that these recommendations have been made > without the necessary supporting data. Robert, I'm wondering why you feel the need to avoid many soy products. Which soy products are you avoiding? Are you avoiding genetically altered and/or chemically grown soy? I hope so, because lately I have been trying to add organic soy products to my diet as a source of calcium, phytoestrogens, and plant protein. A clarification would be appreciated. Thanks very much, Deidre From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 12:46:38 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01826 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:46:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18435; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:40:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18299 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:38:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip105.computer.net [140.186.252.105]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA12857 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:44:19 -0500 (EST) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:45:07 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA18300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3260 Forty-third Week (January 26-February 1) In winter's depths is kindled True spirit life with glowing warmth; It gives to world appearance, Through forces of the heart, the power to be. Grown strong, the human soul defies With inner fire the coldness of the world. English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- In winterlichen Tiefen Erwarmt des Geistes wahres Sein; Es gibt dem Weltenscheine Durch Herzenskräfte Daseinsmächte; Der Weltenkälte trotzt erstarkend Das Seelenfeuer im Menscheninnern. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 12:46:38 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01827 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:46:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18396; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:40:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18165 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:36:56 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp368.cy-net.net [208.21.195.177]) by mail.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11380 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:42:36 -0600 Message-Id: <200001231742.LAA11380@mail.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:25:03 -0600 Subject: Sally & Divas Priority: normal In-reply-to: <388B1CB0.44186DCD@erols.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3261 I'm confused. Is Sally Fallon actually a member of BD NOW! group? All the posts I've seen so far concerning her have been replies from Allan, from Guillermo, and nothing originating from herself. I'm very much enjoying the debate(s), and hope it doesn't discourage anyone from participating, no matter in which method of replying. I also really REALLY liked the interview that Wayne and Sharon put forth to the group to read. Sharon, are the Diva Spirits the same as in Perelandra, is this where you learned of this? It would be wonderful if ya'll could eventually set up your farmstead as a teaching atmosphere for just such methods as you describe. More people need to be exposed to this style of communication with our surrounds! Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 13:00:40 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01942 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:00:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19195; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:54:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from hawaii.rr.com (hnlmail2.hawaii.rr.com [24.25.227.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19029 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:51:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from phyl ([24.94.67.76]) by hawaii.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Sun, 23 Jan 2000 07:56:13 -1000 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000123053902.00954f00@pop-server> X-Sender: pdwyer@pop-server X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 07:50:26 -1000 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Phyl Dwyer Subject: Re: A "Disgustion" and some questions for the Group In-Reply-To: References: <67.df0e9a.25ba10d6@aol.com> <67.df0e9a.25ba10d6@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_8595859==_.ALT" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3262 --=====================_8595859==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear Friends, Reading Allan's post about net-etiquette, the art of "conversation" and good manners was a good wake up call. It might be good to hold his thoughts and questions in mind when we think of other friends and colleagues. Friends who may have been, are, might become, or perhaps never will be participants on this list. Reading Allan's thoughts brought to mind how it seems the circle of contributors to BDNow has shrunk over time. What happen to the days when there were dozens of contributors to any given thread of discussion and exploration? There was a time (pre-BDNow) when I was beside myself with enthusiasm for this discussion group. When I told everyone I came in contact with how great it was. That they should join. That it was a great place to meet fellow BD'ers, have incredible discussions, and learn a lot through hearing how others farm, how they do things, think of things - how others strive with the grand enigma of being. But then the list became a venting forum too and I lost heart. I came close to dropping out many many times. I did in a way. Now I merely read and listen, and yes, delete (as has so often been suggested). But there is more to deleting than a delete key. We delete our potential contributions even before we think them. We delete potential contributors even before they've contributed. We delete integrity when we lose sight of common human decency, respect and LOVE. When we challenge or insult each others' character, understanding, perspective, gender, faith, belief, role, responsibilities, institution, integrity, sincerity, etc - we all lose. Something gets deleted. When we divide into camps of "us" and "them," in what ever manner, we have stepped backwards. Again, it might be an interesting exercise to reread Allan's post with others in mind. Here are some of my thoughts along with excerpts from Allan's gratefully appreciated (and long overdue) post. >I invited Sally Fallon to this discussion group with a promise that it >would be good, light, thought provoking fun. What an honorably aspiration - good, light, thought provoking fun. Wouldn't it be a grand undertaking to try and meet others, say BDA and Demeter folks, out of this spirit of good will? >...She is also an extremely busy person, giving tirelessly of herself to >many of ... Certainly this could be also said of others we have wished to participate in BDNow. >Sally certainly doesn't expect everyone to agree with what she says, but >she didn't enter BD Now! to take part in a documented debate.... Who does? Surely others we might wish participate do not want to take part in a documented debate either. > I guess I assumed too much of members of this group when I promised her > that she would be treated respectfully and that she would be within an > audience that shared many values with her.... Ouch. Again, it might be a good exercise to turn this looking glass elsewhere, with other threads, involving other folks and efforts. And yes, even ourselves - have we been treating every one well in our hearts, in the way we think of them and their work, in the way we speak of them - even on this list? >Given my 'promises,' she was willing to share some of her spiritual life >with us... Sharing ones spiritual life is a delicate proposition at best, in an Internet forum it seems unrealistic, particularly if the forum's energy is such that it generates a post laden with the painful questions (good questions) Allan has raised. >Now that trust has been violated in a most spiteful way.... Again, ouch. Whether or not this is an accurate assessment in this case - this has unfortunately DEFINITELY been the experience of others on this list. >....Am I incorrect in assuming that it's a pleasure and a welcomed change >to have access to a primary source for a few days a few times a year? >.....Please let me know as soon as possible. You are not incorrect to long for this, or even expect it. It might just be a question of how we approach it. Perhaps a well articulated introduction to a guest that states the theme(s) of discussion being offered. It might be good to include some of the parameters within which the guest wishes to work with us. Gentle reminders of net-etiquette and good manners would certainly be good to include too. These are GOOD questions Allan has raised. Questions every single human being must strive to live into with each and every meeting of the other. One might even say, questions ESPECIALLY poignant for cyber-space. These questions are indeed at the heart of one of our most sacred tasks as humans - to develop free will, freedom in living thought and compassion of heart. Most of us probably fall far short of meeting these challenges of cosmopolitan spiritual citizenship in the manner we long for. Never-the-less we rise to the challenge again and again with each new embrace of the other. The other idea, the other practice, the other belief, the other perspective, the other person, the other human soul. Truly this is why we strive to work with the biodynamic impulse. This is the reason, the purpose, the intent, the STRIVING of biodynamic agriculture. Gee, wouldn't it indeed be wonderful if we could TRULY hold each other and fill each other with wonder? Aloha, Phyl ============================================== pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com Phyl Dwyer Kahumana Farm 86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd. Waianae, HI 96792 808-696-1010 808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_8595859==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dear Friends,

Reading Allan's post about net-etiquette, the art of "conversation" and good manners was a good wake up call. It might be good to hold his thoughts and questions in mind when we think of other friends and colleagues. Friends who may have been, are, might become, or perhaps never will be participants on this list.

Reading Allan's thoughts brought to mind how it seems the circle of contributors to BDNow has shrunk over time. What happen to the days when there were dozens of contributors to any given thread of discussion and exploration? There was a time (pre-BDNow) when I was beside myself with enthusiasm for this discussion group. When I told everyone I came in contact with how great it was. That they should join. That it was a great place to meet fellow BD'ers, have incredible discussions, and learn a lot through hearing how others farm, how they do things, think of things - how others strive with the grand enigma of being.

But then the list became a venting forum too and I lost heart. I came close to dropping out many many times. I did in a way. Now I merely read and listen, and yes, delete (as has so often been suggested). But there is more to deleting than a delete key. We delete our potential contributions even before we think them. We delete potential contributors even before they've contributed. We delete integrity when we lose sight of common human decency, respect and LOVE. When we challenge or insult each others' character, understanding, perspective, gender, faith, belief, role, responsibilities, institution, integrity, sincerity, etc - we all lose. Something gets deleted. When we divide into camps of "us" and "them," in what ever manner, we have stepped backwards.

Again, it might be an interesting exercise to reread Allan's post with others in mind. Here are some of my thoughts along with excerpts from Allan's gratefully appreciated (and long overdue) post.

I invited Sally Fallon to this discussion group with a promise that it would be good, light, thought provoking fun.

What an honorably aspiration - good, light, thought provoking fun. Wouldn't it be a grand undertaking to try and meet others, say BDA and Demeter folks, out of this spirit of good will?

...She is also an extremely busy person, giving tirelessly of herself to many of ...

Certainly this could be also said of others we have wished to participate in BDNow.

Sally certainly doesn't expect everyone to agree with what she says, but she didn't enter BD Now! to take part in a documented debate....

Who does? Surely others we might wish participate do not want to take part in a documented debate either.

 I guess I assumed too much of members of this group when I promised her that she would be treated respectfully and that she would be within an audience that shared many values with her....

Ouch. Again, it might be a good exercise to turn this looking glass elsewhere, with other threads, involving other folks and efforts. And yes, even ourselves - have we been treating every one well in our hearts, in the way we think of them and their work, in the way we speak of them - even on this list?

Given my 'promises,' she was willing to share some of her spiritual life with us...

Sharing ones spiritual life is a delicate proposition at best, in an Internet forum it seems unrealistic, particularly if the forum's energy is such that it generates a post laden with the painful questions (good questions) Allan has raised.

Now that trust has been violated in a most spiteful way....

Again, ouch. Whether or not this is an accurate assessment in this case - this has unfortunately DEFINITELY been the experience of others on this list.

....Am I incorrect in assuming that it's a pleasure and a welcomed change to have access to a primary source for a few days a few times a year? .....Please let me know as soon as possible.

You are not incorrect to long for this, or even expect it. It might just be a question of how we approach it. Perhaps a well articulated introduction to a guest that states the theme(s) of discussion being offered. It might be good to include some of the parameters within which the guest wishes to work with us. Gentle reminders of net-etiquette and good manners would certainly be good to include too.

These are GOOD questions Allan has raised. Questions every single human being must strive to live into with each and every meeting of the other. One might even say, questions ESPECIALLY poignant for cyber-space. These questions are indeed at the heart of one of our most sacred tasks as humans - to develop free will, freedom in living thought and compassion of heart.

Most of us probably fall far short of meeting these challenges of cosmopolitan spiritual citizenship in the manner we long for. Never-the-less we rise to the challenge again and again with each new embrace of the other. The other idea, the other practice, the other belief, the other perspective, the other person, the other human soul. Truly this is why we strive to work with the biodynamic impulse. This is the reason, the purpose, the intent, the STRIVING of biodynamic agriculture.

Gee, wouldn't it indeed be wonderful if we could TRULY hold each other and fill each other with wonder?

Aloha,

Phyl

==============================================
pdwyer@hawaii.rr.com

Phyl Dwyer
Kahumana Farm
86-660 Lualualei Hmstd. Rd.
Waianae, HI 96792

808-696-1010
808-696-2020 Fax --=====================_8595859==_.ALT-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 13:15:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02091 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:15:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20949; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:09:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from m11.boston.juno.com (m11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.194]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA20653 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:04:37 -0500 (EST) Received: "qvbuBYpd40NuYQRaxysYCW0sgBdnPJEuOsX6t+Fn4YdcAtVKWqKyxA==" Received: (from laquerencia@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EW2N6XEJ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:10:18 EST To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:00:19 -0600 Subject: Re: A "Disgustion" Message-ID: <20000123.121145.-469387.1.LaQuerencia@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-9,11,13-15 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Deborah M Byron Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3263 Dear Allan, Count me in as strongly in favor of cross pollinating BDNow with such interesting people as you've mentioned--and many thanks all your work in bringing this lively wisdom to all of us. Warm regards, Deborah Byron Allan wrote : >..maybe there is no interest in hearing from experts in related fields.) Please let > me know as soon as possible. Perhaps it is I who have lost contact with > intuition. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 13:24:39 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02239 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:24:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21710; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:18:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.69]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21614 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:18:15 -0500 (EST) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.8d.f0902a (5727) for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:23:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8d.f0902a.25bca11a@aol.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:23:22 EST Subject: Re: Threefold To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3264 Further thoughts to Malcolm's good definitions: The three spheres, which I call spiritual cultural, spiritual rights and spiritual economics because that is what we are attempting to raise them to, are based on the human organism, according to Steiner. One way to look at it is a. nerves/senses, centered in the head but found throughout the body, b. metabolic processes/movement, centered in the abdomen and limbs, but found throughout, and c. rhythm/circulation, centered in heart and lungs, but found throughout. In order to maintain health these three "spheres" need to function perfectly and interactively. There are many ways to compare these "spheres" to outer conditions of life. The "cultural" can be linked to the head and includes memory, history, thinking and philosophy, education, artistic faculty, culture of living, improving on the past, and consumption. It is based on individual activity and, Steiner says, egotism--in other words it seves to filfull individual needs, based on the treasures of the past. The artist needs support and recognition, the student needs to learn, the patient needs medicine, we all need a certain "culture" around us to live our life style. This includes using and teaching the wisdom that has been given us to develop the right food. Liberty prevails here. The "economic" can be linked to the metabolism and limbs and includes the future, supply and demand, production, products and services, transformation of substance. It is based on group activity and, Steiner says, altruism--in production we must usually work together with one common idea or goal of which we are a part, and we never make what we make primarily for ourselves. If we do, we are right back in the cultural sphere. Also,if we hand make one product, or a model, we are in the cultural sphere. The economic sphere makes multiples of products or services, obviously for the use of others. It is the principle of fraternity. The "rights" could be said to be in-between the other two. It is linked to circulation and rhythm and ideally mediates between people and between people and groups. It is simply a facilitator, bringing together and keeping safe what might otherwise be opposing forces. It lives in the present, and now this is not a Steiner quote, but I imagine it to be the "I and You". It can be an ombudsman seen culturally--harmonizing disputes (the heart) or a distributor seen econically--linking from producer to consumer (the circulation). It makes sure fairness (equality) prevails. This is how governments should function. Ensuring that noone does harm to another and providing a fair basis for all to develop as freely as possible cultural and economic attributes. The one who has a farm is mostly involved in production (economic sphere) while others might do the distributing. Yet this farmer is in the cultural sphere while cultivating his/her land and in the rights sphere while creating the rules of the land and its people, the business plan, pricing, and finding consumers etc. Enough for now. I am taking my old thoughts, circulating them and hoping that together we come up with a new modus vivendi. Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 13:53:34 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02531 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:53:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23888; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:47:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from cobalt1-he.global.net.uk (cobalt1-he.global.net.uk [195.147.246.161]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23723 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:45:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2es05a02.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.149.47] helo=compaq) by cobalt1-he.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12CS5G-00071J-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:49:59 -0800 Message-ID: <388B4C20.5207@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:44:48 +0000 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: References: <388B07F3.43427AA4@erols.com> <388B2A28.26DA7C6F@pop.spkn.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3265 d2allen@uswest.net wrote: > > Robert Farr wrote: > > > Guillermo: > > > > You've echoed my sentiments exactly in your thoughtful post! > > > > While I enjoyed Sally Fallon's lecture at the BD conference - and tend > > to be in "gut-fee" agreement regarding the need to avoid many soy > > products, I, too, am concerned that these recommendations have been made > > without the necessary supporting data. > > Robert, > > I'm wondering why you feel the need to avoid many soy products. Which soy > products are you avoiding? Are you avoiding genetically altered and/or > chemically grown soy? I hope so, because lately I have been trying to add > organic soy products to my diet as a source of calcium, phytoestrogens, and > plant protein. A clarification would be appreciated. > > Thanks very much, > > Deidre The only reason why you might reduce or at least consider reducing soya products is because of the cooling nature of soya, and because they can contain goitrogens,this means along with cabbage, kale etc you may find your thyroid under stress maybe a goitre might develop if you go overboard on soya particularly soya milk in the winter or when it is cold,chemically made Tofu for example eaten as raw cheese or as cheese cake or spreads is bad!It should be cooked always and should always be made with nigari not anything else.Sea vegetables eaten with soya foods are balancing and put back the iodine goitrogens may take out. Good to eat with ginger for ginger is warming. The idea of supping gallons of soya milk in the winter is not a good idea,,drink of all kinds is best taken at blood temperature. Being Iodine deficient is putting you at risk from selective uptake of radioactive iodine so keep eating small quantities of sea vegetable like say Hiziki or Arame if you wish to scoff loads of soya products and from someone who has eaten Soy Foods for over 40 years always buy organic,and always as fresh as possible,this now should prevent the need to worry unduly about GM ingredients.The only commercial Soya Milk to contain Komby Sea Vegetable is BONSOY made in Japan to I think a recipe from some Australian macrobiotic souls,it includes Hato Mugi wild barley to assist the protein assimilation and is the most balanced soya milk there is. Rex Tyler -- ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 14:31:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02915 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 14:31:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26948; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 14:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cobalt5-he.global.net.uk (cobalt5-he.global.net.uk [195.147.246.165]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26875 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 14:24:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from p5ds06a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.230.94] helo=compaq) by cobalt5-he.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12CSho-00012B-00 for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:29:49 -0800 Message-ID: <388B5571.523D@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 19:24:33 +0000 From: "Cook's Delight" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Cook's Delight X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Are their fairies at the bottom of our gardens? References: <388B07F3.43427AA4@erols.com> <388B2A28.26DA7C6F@pop.spkn.uswest.net> <388B4C20.5207@globalnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3266 Cook's Delight wrote: > > d2allen@uswest.net wrote: > > > > Robert Farr wrote: > > > > > Guillermo: > > > > > > You've echoed my sentiments exactly in your thoughtful post! > > > > > > While I enjoyed Sally Fallon's lecture at the BD conference - and tend > > > to be in "gut-fee" agreement regarding the need to avoid many soy > > > products, I, too, am concerned that these recommendations have been made > > > without the necessary supporting data. > > > > Robert, > > > > I'm wondering why you feel the need to avoid many soy products. Which soy > > products are you avoiding? Are you avoiding genetically altered and/or > > chemically grown soy? I hope so, because lately I have been trying to add > > organic soy products to my diet as a source of calcium, phytoestrogens, and > > plant protein. A clarification would be appreciated. > > > > Thanks very much, > > > > Deidre > The only reason why you might reduce or at least consider reducing soya > products is because of the cooling nature of soya, and because they can > contain goitrogens,this means along with cabbage, kale etc you may find > your thyroid under stress maybe a goitre might develop if you go > overboard on soya particularly soya milk in the winter or when it is > cold,chemically made Tofu for example eaten as raw cheese or as cheese > cake or spreads is bad!It should be cooked always and should always be > made with nigari not anything else.Sea vegetables eaten with soya foods > are balancing and put back the iodine goitrogens may take out. > Good to eat with ginger for ginger is warming. > The idea of supping gallons of soya milk in the winter is not a good > idea,,drink of all kinds is best taken at blood temperature. > Being Iodine deficient is putting you at risk from selective uptake of > radioactive iodine so keep eating small quantities of sea vegetable > like say Hiziki or Arame if you wish to scoff loads of soya products > and from someone who has eaten Soy Foods for over 40 years always buy > organic,and always as fresh as possible,this now should prevent the > need to worry unduly about GM ingredients.The only commercial Soya Milk > to contain Komby Sea Vegetable is BONSOY made in Japan to I think a > recipe from some Australian macrobiotic souls,it includes Hato Mugi > wild barley to assist the protein assimilation and is the most balanced > soya milk there is. > > Rex Tyler > -- > ------------------------ > visit us at Cook's Delight: > http://surf.to/cooksdelight > > from August 15, 1999 > http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk > > ------------------------ Tis often spoken of But seldom realised How many pasture's Are frequented by The little folk The elves that walk in silence Sunlit/Moonbeam souls Who do apply Etheric World Protection Via Plant Force And mediate and fight Our corner too As pesticide and now This GM nonsense Threatens They just don't know What to do. The Life force Was a power That came from Heaven And now the Human clan Believe that they Have the where for all To short cut Systems Put in place by God Maker of Day Perhaps in future Incarnations, Children Of the new order, Evolved Beings, will Make a study Of First Century Peoples And realise why they're Not with them still. -- ------------------------ visit us at Cook's Delight: http://surf.to/cooksdelight from August 15, 1999 http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk ------------------------ From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 15:39:17 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07696 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 15:39:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02141; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 15:33:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com [207.46.181.18]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01567 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 15:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from micron - 204.30.201.245 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:33:54 -0800 Message-ID: <000901bf65e1$5c45f9c0$f5c91ecc@micron> From: "Wells" To: References: <002001bf5ff7$038e9520$397711ce@siesta> Subject: Re: weed spreadsheet Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:35:16 -0800 Organization: Microsoft Corporation X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3267 Thanks for sending the weed spreadsheet! Amazing!! Thank you for your time and efforts in doing same. Wells W. ----- Original Message ----- From: I & K Buckingham To: BDnow Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2000 11:55 PM Subject: Off: weed spreadsheet > Greetings > > By now those who requested a copy should have it zipping through the ethers. > It is in excel version 5 format. If it is not able to be opened or need some > other format please let me know at Siesta@ihug.co.nz and we can work out a > better system privately. > > Regards > > Ian Buckingham > Maungatawhiri > New Zealand > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 18:13:07 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10955 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:13:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14519; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:06:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14262 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:04:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.140] (pm3shep3-163-140.intrepid.net [209.190.163.140]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA00267 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:09:50 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <388B1CB0.44186DCD@erols.com> References: <388B1CB0.44186DCD@erols.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:36:00 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Sally Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3268 >I did think that we were being encouraged to enter into debate with >Sally, which I have done. You don't think that's inappropriate, do >you? As I stated, what better forum to do it? She DOES need to present >her research - because I (and many others) DO want to believe her. As >you pointed out, it IS intuitive (I said that, too). But intuition >wants facts to feel good about itself. Then it is relieved! Robert - When it comes to Sally Fallon and other 'specialists' that I may invite to this list, I think it's great to ask questions, maybe even challenge their ideas. What is not correct is to disrespectful or take the tone that they are wrong unless they type in their bibliography. We can't have primary sources on-line here if it's going to take up a lot of their time, or if their character is going to be besmearched. Worse, of course, is when they communicate with us at our common values and that communications is x-posted to a secular community. Another aspect of all of this is: do your own homework. Sally's book has been for sale on BD Now! since we put up the first book list. She's been rather taken back with some of the questions taht have come from BD Now! because they are discussed - - and documented - - in the INTRODUCTION of "Traditional Nutrition." That said, these implications that Sally is a poor scholar or can't share worthwhile information because she does not have credentials, can be somewhat set to rest by checking out the 150 or so references she gives for here 'thesis' statements in the intro to Nourishing Traditions. If you don't own the book or don't want to buy it, you can get a LOT of information from her web page at http://www.westonaprice.org In fact, there you will find the entire intro section on FAT and some very good information about the dangers of non-traditional soy-based foods. I hope this helps. -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 18:13:10 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10963 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:13:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14568; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:07:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14393 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:05:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.140] (pm3shep3-163-140.intrepid.net [209.190.163.140]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA00531 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:11:09 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200001231742.LAA11380@mail.txcyber.com> References: <200001231742.LAA11380@mail.txcyber.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 14:27:31 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Sally & Divas Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3269 Dear Flylo - Sally is offline. I post msgs to her from the group and she posts replies through me. It was a great imposition on her time to ask her to take part in our discussions, (a point that she made clear) but I had an opportunity and I asked and she consented. I couldn't ask her to bear the '110' posts a day from the group or sit through some of the recent definitional arguments we have been cooking for the past several days. No, I do not want discourage anyone from asking Sally any real questions that they have. I just don't expect her to provide evidence for her assertions, particularly not after she has mentioned that her book is filled with such references. I hope this is clear. Thanks -Allan Balliett -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 18:22:16 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11072 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:22:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15203; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:16:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15011 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:14:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.140] (pm3shep3-163-140.intrepid.net [209.190.163.140]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA02015 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:19:47 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <388B17FF.DA5196F7@erols.com> References: <388B17FF.DA5196F7@erols.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:23:54 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3270 >Allan: > >Would you please publish the titles of Sally's book. I, for one, would >like to read them! I'm sure I'll have more questions afterwards, but >will direct them to Sally herself. > >R. There's only the one book, Robert: "Nourishing Traditions." (Available through the BD Now! book page. She has written many articles for Price-Pottenger, etc. You can find some more of her writing at www.westonaprice.org. Good Luck! -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 18:41:48 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11347 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:41:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16733; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:35:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16569 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:33:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.140] (pm3shep3-163-140.intrepid.net [209.190.163.140]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA05775 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:39:29 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <388B4C20.5207@globalnet.co.uk> References: <388B07F3.43427AA4@erols.com> <388B2A28.26DA7C6F@pop.spkn.uswest.net> <388B4C20.5207@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:35:13 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: SOY was Re: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3271 Dear Rex - I believe it was Ted Rogers, BD Now! member and USDA honcho, that drew my attention to the fact that much of the 'organic' soy in the market today is being drawn in from commercial sources. This is deduced by the way the pricing for oganic soy beans has remained constant while there has been 'revolution' in their production methods. This possibility - - that all the organic soy out there is from gmo sources - - really hit home with me when a member of the Organic Food Growers Association told me that several million acres of Soy had been certified in Chine for sale to the US market. Even among conventional organic cert people it was assumed that this certification was 'paper' only ie the chinese had purchased the certification and would fill contracts with gmo beans. Aside from this horror, Sally feels she can demonstrate that the body perceives the 'textured' twisted and tortured soy foods (ie the non-traditional soy products) to be 'new' foods. A 'new' food is a food that has materials in it that our bodies did NOT evolve with and for that reason poses an extended health risk. Moreover, in her writings she has demonstrated endocrine and estrogen weirdness occuring from the regular use of commerical non-traditional soy products. Although grown for fodder by the Chinese for millenia, soy was not introduced to the chinese diet until the advent of tofu. Before that, soy was considered to be an anti-nutritional plant in the human diet, tatamount to a poison. For the most part, soy milk is NOT food, it is a food substitute, as many American mothers discovered after substituting Edensoy for babies formula. -Allan >d2allen@uswest.net wrote: >> >> Robert Farr wrote: >> >> > Guillermo: >> > >> > You've echoed my sentiments exactly in your thoughtful post! >> > >> > While I enjoyed Sally Fallon's lecture at the BD conference - and tend >> > to be in "gut-fee" agreement regarding the need to avoid many soy >> > products, I, too, am concerned that these recommendations have been made >> > without the necessary supporting data. >> >> Robert, >> >> I'm wondering why you feel the need to avoid many soy products. Which soy >> products are you avoiding? Are you avoiding genetically altered and/or >> chemically grown soy? I hope so, because lately I have been trying to add >> organic soy products to my diet as a source of calcium, phytoestrogens, and >> plant protein. A clarification would be appreciated. >> >> Thanks very much, >> >> Deidre >The only reason why you might reduce or at least consider reducing soya >products is because of the cooling nature of soya, and because they can >contain goitrogens,this means along with cabbage, kale etc you may find >your thyroid under stress maybe a goitre might develop if you go >overboard on soya particularly soya milk in the winter or when it is >cold,chemically made Tofu for example eaten as raw cheese or as cheese >cake or spreads is bad!It should be cooked always and should always be >made with nigari not anything else.Sea vegetables eaten with soya foods >are balancing and put back the iodine goitrogens may take out. >Good to eat with ginger for ginger is warming. >The idea of supping gallons of soya milk in the winter is not a good >idea,,drink of all kinds is best taken at blood temperature. >Being Iodine deficient is putting you at risk from selective uptake of >radioactive iodine so keep eating small quantities of sea vegetable >like say Hiziki or Arame if you wish to scoff loads of soya products >and from someone who has eaten Soy Foods for over 40 years always buy >organic,and always as fresh as possible,this now should prevent the >need to worry unduly about GM ingredients.The only commercial Soya Milk >to contain Komby Sea Vegetable is BONSOY made in Japan to I think a >recipe from some Australian macrobiotic souls,it includes Hato Mugi >wild barley to assist the protein assimilation and is the most balanced >soya milk there is. > >Rex Tyler >-- >------------------------ >visit us at Cook's Delight: >http://surf.to/cooksdelight > >from August 15, 1999 >http://www.cooksdelight.co.uk > >------------------------ -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 21:25:04 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14740 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:25:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA27845; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:18:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.66]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA27579 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:13:57 -0500 (EST) From: Lilipoh@aol.com Received: from Lilipoh@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.6c.1238530 (3891) for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:19:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6c.1238530.25bd109b@aol.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:19:07 EST Subject: Re: Digesting Disgustion To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3272 Phyl wrote:c << Gee, wouldn't it indeed be wonderful if we could TRULY hold each other and fill each other with wonder? >> ...and a little bit of humor. Christine From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 22:36:55 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15352 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:36:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA02722; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:30:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02448 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:26:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-124.s124.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.124] helo=erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12CaDo-0002e9-00; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:31:20 -0500 Message-ID: <388BC7DE.7E00E237@erols.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:32:46 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Sally References: <388B1CB0.44186DCD@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3273 Allan: Yes - good - understood. The debate should above all else be respectful. I will check out her books and here web site. But the burden of proof - ah; that's going to have to lie with the person making the claims. I trust I'll find what I need in the texts, both on-line and off. Because I DO want to believe what she says. Again, it just seems intuitive. I'll report back! R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 22:41:47 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15403 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:41:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03175; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:35:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx ([148.235.168.44]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02836 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:31:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.78.244] (du-148-233-78-174.prodigy.net.mx) by SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOT00MMWJGYKU@SMTP.Prodigy.Net.mx>; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:41:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:42:46 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 In-reply-to: X-Sender: romerog@pop.Prodigy.Net.mx To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id WAA02837 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3274 >For clarification: I have not problem with respectful rebuttle. I'm >not asking everyone to agree with everything that is put forward by >any means. On the other hand, don't ask her to spend a lot of time >and effort documenting her assertions. Read her book, or take her >assertions or leave them. It's outside of the spirit of this >relationship to ask her to supply footnotes (dammit!) > Thanks -Allan > >>Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:44:06 EST >>Subject: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 >>To: igg@igg.com >> >>I consider that B12 requirements cannot be fulfilled by plant foods under any >>circumstances. >> >>When Steiner talked about vegetarianism, he was talking about replacing meat >>with milk--and raw milk at that--and not about going on a vegan diet. I have >>no problems with lacto-ovo vegetarianism as long as those practicing it can >>obtain raw milk products. (B12 is destroyed by pasteurization.) However, I >>would hope that vegetarians who are not doing well on milk products, or their >>children are not growing properly, would have the humility to include some >>other animal foods in their diet. >> >>I am not a nutritionist and have never claimed to be. My co-author Mary Enig >>is a PhD in nutrition science. The statements I make about nutrition are >>backed by references, given at the end of the introduction to Nourishing >>Traditions. >> >>Sally Fallon > Dear Allan: I did not know that I had to treat Ms. Fallon any differently than what I treat anyone else in this list. (any other complains out there?). I am sorry, I forgot you were the "owner" of this list and therefore you are now probably expecting that everyone here conforms to your personal position and supports your individual interests. If that is the case lets make the rules and objectives crystal clear please. Let me start proposing the first couple of ground rules for BD-Now future interactions that have became obvious to me in recent times: 1.- Because you were once fired from being the editor of the Biodynamic journal and the BD-l list by the President of the BDA, therefore and in order to nourish your resentments, we will all have to indiscriminately doubt, insult and flame the representatives associated with the BDFGA or Demeter and blindly support you in doing that. 2.- Because Ms. Sally Fallon is one of the regular speakers in the Mid Atlantic BD conference and because you may have other business interest with her (ie.selling beef or whatever), we will not be allowed to question her statements, we must only limit ourselves to offer her full and blind support in order to propagate the ideas in her book, with the objective to help her rise to being yet another shooting star in the heavens of the fad diets market place. Having proposed that, can you now explain why I should not " ask her to spend a lot of time and effort documenting her assertions". I do take the time to document and provide references to my posts, so does most of the people in this list, that is one of the reasons why it has been so valuable until now. Why she should not do it ? Why is she an exemption here ? Now let me think, wow!, ARE YOU IMPLYING THAT SHE CAN'T ? !!!!!!! I mean an author familiar with his/her topic should be able to provide support to his/her statements almost effortlessly. Why is it so troublesome and time consuming for Ms Fallon to do so?, is it probably for the same reason that she employed in her book a co-author with the qualifications she is missing ?, or is it probably the reason why she reads out loud from a prepared "script" in her so called public speaking engagements ?, or is it probably for the same reason that she dismissed questions with an easy "buy my book and you will learn the answer to your question" at your conference or, probably for the same reason that when she was confronted directly and repeatedly, she cynically admitted that some of her hard statements were based on things she overheard in, literally, "THE BUZZ"?. (many in this list hear her said that at your conference) On a different subject, since when is this list a place where you either accept other people positions or "leave them". I thought this was indeed a discussion forum, is it not? Please tell me what is the "spirit" of the list now then. Probably a forum where the only ideas that we are able to discuss are those which you find comfortable ?. Why is it so wrong to ask for references ?, As I said before, the most valuable thing I have learn in my education is that knowledge is relative. Why then should I take at face value the assertions and interpretations of third parties,specially when I have the capacity to interpret and evaluate the sources where a given information first originated. Similar to Ms Fallon position re. milk, I like the ideas raw, unprocessed and unadulterated. What is wrong with that ? Specially when I am doubtful about the universal validity and concerned about the public health implications of some of her so called "truths" about nutrition. In my posts to her I have always stated that I suspected her perspective to have valid points, but not universal, not an absolute truth, but relative and constrained to a set of conditions which are not evident from reading her material, but probably evident by reading the original papers from where she extracted her ideas. Or, is she or her associates doing original research ? She has the habit of making very strong and definite statements and, specially in the field of nutrition, history has proven the inadequacy of such posture. In contrast to her post calling Dr. Campbell "a complete fool", I do not believe that such thing as "a complete fool" has ever existed, I strongly believe that any opinion is a valid one and our task is to take it apart, understand it within its basis and its context, and from there build are own criteria to be used also within context and within a relative and limited framework. We are all free to decide by using our human attributes. Please extend my apologies to Ms. Fallon, it has never been my intention to offend her, just to challenge her assertions in a general context. If she was insulted or troubled by me doing that, I honestly feel sorry, but I can help it. As far as I can tell, I never used a disrespectful language or attitude in my posts to her. >From now on I will stop harassing your VIP clients but will take my business and honest queries elsewhere. I only hope that in the future a new, more democratic, more institutional and less biased and personality dependent, electronic forum be formed to substitute this one that IMO your are now painfully trashing. Please feel free to erase my name from the list of recipients. I wish for you a long and meaningful life friend and please give my best to your lovely family. Warm regards. (btw and for obvious reasons, I will not cross post this to sanet, but for those interested, I will post in that forum the potential reply of Dr. Campbell to Ms Fallon's post) Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 22:51:01 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15468 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:51:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03668; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:44:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03600 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:43:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca98.vthokies.net [206.153.172.98]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA07468 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:21:52 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.0.29.1.20000123111624.00a8d990@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.29 (Beta) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:26:48 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Thun's calendar work (long) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id WAA03601 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3275 At 08:15 AM 1/9/00 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Malcolm - > >I believe that Greg ... mentioned much earlier that the conclusions of >Maria Thun's calendar experiments have never been verified by another >researcher. One conclusion is that she is doing poor observation, but >another that has been put forward is that she is in a geological terrain >that heightens the observable effects of the preps. (Within a valley >formed by seven mountains, or something like that.) How do you feel about >this assertion....AND how do you feel about Thun's calendar work? > >-Allan Dear Allan, That's a good question, but I don't want to say how I feel about her "calendar work" without presenting at least a rough overview of the facts. That way you can also draw your own conclusions. For clarity, before reviewing the experimental work, I will first spell out Thun's "sidereal trigon theory," which is the basis for the recommendations in her calendar ("Working with the Stars"). 1) THUN'S SIDEREAL TRIGON THEORY Thun's theory basically has three parts: a) Plants (i.e., higher plants) consist of four main organs, each of which is related to one of the four classical elements: Fruit & Seed = Fire (or Warmth) Flower = Air (or Light) Leaf = Water Root = Earth b) The circle of 12 sidereal constellations of the zodiac consists of four overlapping "trigons" (roughly equilateral triangles), each of which is related to one of the four elements (which in turn is related to the four plant organs): Ram, Lion, Archer = Fire/Warmth trigon = Fruit/Seed trigon Twins, Scales, Waterman = Air/Light trigon = Flower trigon Crab, Scorpion, Fishes = Water trigon = Leaf trigon Bull, Virgin, Goat = Earth trigon = Root trigon c) The four sidereal trigons "engender favourable conditions" for the development of the corresponding plant organs "as the Moon passes in front of the particular constellation, that is, if cultivation, sowing and planting are carried out at the corresponding period" ("Work on the Land and the Constellations," East Grinstead 1990, p. 11). Thus, according to Thun, if these things are done when the Moon is in a particular trigon, one may expect better development of the corresponding plant organ, and poorer development of the other, non-corresponding organs. More specifically, Thun defines the 12 sidereal constellations in accordance with the annual astronomical calendar published in Dornach, Switzerland, which uses slightly different divisions than the IAU (International Astronomical Union). These 12 constellations are unequal in size and so too are the four trigons (thus, for example, the Earth/Root trigon [Bull, Virgin, Goat] is 56% larger than the Air/Flower trigon [Twins, Scales, Waterman]). In practice, Thun indicates that there are some exceptions to the trigon-plant organ correspondences listed above. She says, for example, that the favorable time for sowing potatoes and onions is when the Moon is in the Earth/Root trigon, even though neither potato tubers nor onion bulbs are true roots. Also, she sometimes makes a distinction between fruits (corresponding to the Ram and Archer) and seeds (corresponding to the Lion). As far as I am aware, Thun does not discuss optimum times for growing lower (seedless) plants (not even for Equisetum, one of the biodynamic preparation plants). Lastly, a number of other astronomical conditions are said by Thun to interfere with or override the Moon's influence. These include Moon at apogee or perigee or at its nodes, any eclipse or occultation, full Moon and new Moon, and oppositions or trines between the planets. Furthermore, if the soil is poor (less than 2% humus), the compost not mature, the seedbed not tilled deeply enough, or irrigation used, these may also, according to Thun, interfere with the manifestation of the correspondences listed above. 2) EXPERIMENTAL RESEARCH 2a) Maria Thun's Research In 1952, Maria Thun noticed variations in the form of radishes sown over a 10-day period in similarly prepared soil. She was intrigued by this and began doing various experiments to try to figure out the cause of this variation. In the next years she came up with the idea that the position of the Moon in the zodiac was important and that the different sowings of radishes could be divided into four different "types," a root, leaf, flower, and fruit/seed type. However, it was not until she heard a lecture by Guenther Wachsmuth around 1957, that she hit on the idea of "elemental trigons" within the zodiac. She then expanded her research to include other annual crops and in 1963 published a general report of her morphological observations and her trigon theory ("Nine Years' Observations of Cosmic Influences on Annuals," Working with the Stars 1986). Around 1963 she also began publishing her annual sowing calendar and began doing her first quantitative experiments, measuring potato yields. In 1966 she began publishing her results with the help of Hans Heinze and over the next years published more than a dozen experiments, on several crop species, all of which seemed to exactly confirm her theory. In the late 1960's other researchers became interested in her spectacular results, but they also recognized that her experiments, and Heinze's statistical methods, contained a number of problems, which they tried to correct in their own research. Some of these problems were: lack of true replication (sowings on different days are not true replicates if the differences in weather are not taken into account); usually measuring only one parameter (usually weight) of one organ; often not reporting the exact date and time when the sowings took place; and not considering alternative explanations for the observed phenomena. In addition, although Heinze mentions subjective influences as a possible factor in the success or lack of success in these experiments (Lebendige Erde 1983(1)), he and Thun do not report any effort to control for this in their own experiments by "blinding" the experimenters and technicians (e.g., not informing everyone which row is which). The reports of Thun's ongoing experiments that appear every year in her sowing calendar, along with the pretty pictures of the experimental gardens, etc., are impressive to casual readers but are far too sketchy to be scientifically meaningful. 2b) Other Researchers I am aware of about 80 experiments undertaken by other people to test Frau Thun's sidereal trigon theory. Many of these experiments have not been published (only mentioned in passing), some have been published but not very completely, and the remainder (about 30) have been published in full. All but three of these experiments were done in Europe and most of those that were published are in German. The quality of the methodology of these experiments is very uneven, but I have tried to be comprehensive and use the researchers' *own* interpretations to score the results as either + or - (positive or negative for the theory) or ? (unclear). (Where I do not have details on the year of the experiment, I have substituted the year of the report or publication in square brackets.) # of exps / result / researcher / year / (test plants) / [publication] 1 + Schwarz 1968 (potatoes) [Lebendige Erde 1969(?)] 6 - Boguslawski & Debruck 1968-69 (barley, potatoes) [unpublished] 2? - Koepf 1970's (weeds) [unpublished] 3 + Wildfeuer 1970 (carrots, beets, calendula) [unpublished] 1 + Abele 1970 (barley) [dissertation (Giessen)] 1 + Abele 1971 (oats) [dissertation (Giessen)] 1 - Bockemuehl 1971 (groundsel) [unpublished] 1 + Abele 1972 (carrots) [dissertation (Giessen)] 2 - Graf 1973-74 (potatoes) [dissertation (Zuerich)] 1 + Abele 1974 (radishes) [Leb. Erde 1975(6)] 1/1 +/- Graf 1975 (radishes) [dissertation (Zuerich)] 1 ? Kollerstrom/Muntz 1975 (beans) [Star & Furrow #63] 1 + Kollerstrom/Muntz 1976 (potatoes) [Biodynamics #185] 1/1 ?/- Kollerstrom/Bishop 1976-77 (lettuce) [Mercury Star Journal 4(1)] 10 - Abele 1977-79 (10 weed species) [unpublished] 8 - Spiess 1977-85 (rye) [dissertation (Kassel)] 4 - Spiess 1978-81 (carrots) [dissertation (Kassel)] 1 - Kollerstrom/Bishop 1978 (radishes) [Science Forum #2] 5/1 -/+ Luecke 1979-81 (oats, potatoes) [dissertation (Giessen)] 3 - Spiess 1979-80, 1982 (radishes) [dissertation (Kassel)] 4 - Spiess 1979, 1982-84 (beans) [dissertation (Kassel)] 3 - Spiess 1980-81, 1983 (potatoes) [dissertation (Kassel)] 2 ? Kollerstrom/Temple 1982 (radishes, lettuce) [unpublished] 6 + Lust [1984] (6 vegetables) [Leb. Erde 1984(6)] 1? - Baker [1984] (drop-picture method) [unpublished] 4 - Danek-Jezik [1987] (root & leaf crops) [Austrian academic journal] 1? - Soltysiak [1989] (unknown) [unpublished] 1 - Goldstein 1997 (carrots) [unpublished] 2 ? Adams 1998-99 (garlic) [unpublished] __ 81 total experiments 58 - (negative) 17 + (positive) 6 ? (unclear) Hartmut Spiess' work is by far the most extensive and most scientifically rigorous. It was published in German in 1994 in two volumes, totalling more than 550 pages ("Chronobiologische Untersuchungen mit besonderer Berucksichtigung lunarer Rhythmen im biologisch-dynamischen Pflanzenbau"). However, some of his work (on rye and radishes) *is* in English: Biological Agriculture and Horticulture, vol. 7 (1990), pp. 165-189. Spiess designed his experiments with Frau Thun's cooperation and had expected to be able to confirm her theory in a couple of years; when this did not occur, he extended his experimentation for six more years but still could not confirm it. He found some evidence of a sidereal lunar rhythm, but not of a *trigonal* sidereal rhythm, and even the sidereal rhythm could be better explained by the simultaneously present synodic (full/new) and tropical (high/low) rhythms. Moreover, contrary to Thun's recommendations, he found no detrimental effects at lunar perigee, at the lunar nodes, or during planetary occultations. In addition, Spiess also reexamined the data from some earlier experiments and found, for example, that Abele's apparent success with barley, oats, and carrots rested on incomplete reporting. Although the yields of barley and oats were highest when sown in the Fire/Fruit trigon, and carrots were highest in the Earth/Root trigon, the *straw* of the barley and oats, and the *leaves* of the carrots, were *not* highest during the Water/Leaf trigon. Similarly, in Abele's 1974 radish experiment, the yield of roots and leaves were *both* highest in the Earth/Root trigon. With Graf's radish experiments and Luecke's potato experiment, Spiess points out that their highest yields coincided with the period just before full Moon (which is the time that Steiner recommends for sowing, and which Lili Kolisko and other researchers have found to be very effective). Spiess' final work goes far beyond merely being a test of Thun's theory; it also demonstrates several consistent patterns of lunar influence (besides the full Moon) that may be of great practical significance. I hope these will soon be published in English. In short, Spiess found clear lunar effects, but not of the kind that Frau Thun postulates. Recently, Kollerstrom and Staudenmeier have published an article entitled "Maria Thun's Trigons: What Have Other Investigators Found?" (in the New Zealand BD journal "Harvests", vol. 52/1, Winter 1999). In this article they focus exclusively on the six most impressive "positive" experiments listed above. They disregard four of Kollerstrom's own experiments (which I have therefore labelled "unclear") as well as the negative results reported by the other two researchers whose positive results they cite. In an amazing display of chutzpah, Kollerstrom and Staudenmeier conclude their article with the statement that Thun's theory is now supported by "a considerable and growing body of evidence." Interestingly, the soil for the Kollerstrom/Muntz potato experiment that Kollerstrom and Staudenmeier cite, has been described elsewhere by Kollerstrom as "poor quality soil, which had not been treated with anything" ("Star & Furrow" #63, p. 19). Frau Thun has specifically attributed other people's failure to replicate her work to their use of non-biodynamic soils low in organic matter. (Spiess remarks, however, that optimal growing conditions may not be appropriate for demonstrating lunar effects on yield because the plants are already growing at their best.) It should be noted in passing that Kollerstrom, while defending Thun's basic theory, has also argued (e.g., Science Forum #2) that Thun's theory would better fit at least his own experimental results when he uses the Babylonian equal division sidereal zodiac (revived by Powell and Treadgold), instead of the unequal division sidereal zodiac from Dornach that Thun currently uses. In sum, it is certainly true that just because other researchers have had difficulty confirming Frau Thun's theory, does not necessarily mean that her theory is wrong. It is equally true, however, that if her consistently positive results are possible only in her location, or only when she does the experiment, then, from a practical standpoint, her work may be marvellous, but it is *irrelevant* for the rest of the world. 3) THUN'S CALENDAR AND STEINER'S BIODYNAMICS As mentioned above, a crucial part of Thun's sidereal trigon theory, and hence her calendar, came from Guenther Wachsmuth (1893-1963), who was the leader of the Natural Science Section of the Goetheanum in Dornach and who also attended Steiner's Agriculture Course in 1924. Wachsmuth, however, does not exactly say that this trigon theory came from Rudolf Steiner. What he says in his astrological book, "Kosmische Aspekte von Geburt und Tod" [Cosmic Aspects of Birth and Death] (Dornach 1956), is that the trigonal correspondences between the four elements and the twelve parts of the zodiac rests on an "ancient tradition," which he then goes on to suggest Steiner had confirmed out of his own spiritual research. What seems more likely, however, is that Wachsmuth merely *inferred* such a confirmation, because nowhere in Steiner's own writings is there any hint of such a trigonal pattern in the structure of the zodiac. Similarly, no one has been able to trace this pattern back to any truly ancient astrological tradition, but only to writings from the Middle Ages, a time when direct perception of the subtle worlds had largely been lost and instead been replaced by superstition and speculation. This "ancient tradition" was also given a further twist when Wachsmuth took the trigonal scheme of the elements that had hitherto been applied to the equal signs of the tropical zodiac, and instead applied it to an unequal division of the sidereal zodiac, which meant that it was shifted by almost a full sign relative to the tropical zodiac. (I note in passing that although Steiner favored a sidereal zodiac, there is actually no evidence that he favored unequal divisions.) To this ancient tradition modified by Wachsmuth, Frau Thun added her own ideas, namely, that the element associated with a particular constellation is stimulated by the presence of the Moon in that constellation, and that this element in turn affects the growth of one of the four main organs of the plants on earth. She does not directly claim that her ideas came from Steiner, but she often quotes him when it suits her and she certainly leaves the impression that her ideas are completely compatible with his. This, however, is not exactly the case. In addition to the zodiacal trigons, their ideas diverge also in the following areas: 1) When Steiner speaks about the four elements in relation to plants, he does not speak of the elements in any schematic manner, nor does he outline four distinct "corresponding" regions of a plant. For example, in his lecture of Nov. 2, 1923 (in "Man as Symphony of the Creative Word"), he speaks of the four elements and writes them on the blackboard, but in the following hyphenated, almost untranslatable manner: moist-earthiness, moist-airyness, airy-warmthness, warmish-lightness. Alongside this he sketches a "swirling" plant in which only root and shoot are distinguishable (this drawing is unfortunately omitted from the English editions of "Man as Symphony.") Here he is trying to describe the living, spiritual dimensions of a plant; this is not a plant where one can measure the "yields" of its individual parts. When Steiner speaks of plants on the physical plane, he almost always describes them as *threefold* organisms, as inverse images of the threefold human organism (e.g., July 31, 1924, in "The Evolution of the Earth and Man"). 2) When Steiner speaks about plants in relation to the fixed stars, he does not restrict this to the stars of the zodiac but explicitly includes all the *non-zodiacal* constellations (e.g., July 22, 1922, GA 213). On the other hand, he relates the zodiac specifically to the *animal* world (as the etymology of the word 'zodiac' also suggests). 3) Steiner speaks of the Moon in exactly the opposite way from Thun. For Thun, the forces of a given constellation are *transmitted* when the Moon is in front of it ("Work on the Land," p. 65). For Steiner, the Moon is like a mirror; it *reflects* what is in front of it, but it *blocks out* what is behind it. Thus, on the one hand, he says, "The Moon reflects everything that comes toward it. In a certain sense, the whole starry heavens are reflected by the Moon and stream toward the Earth" ("Spiritual Foundations for the Renewal of Agriculture," p. 117). On the other hand, in a lecture about a month earlier, Steiner explains: "The Lion is a constellation in the zodiac and it has a certain influence on the human being. When the Moon stands in front of the Lion, however, it does not have this influence; then the human being is free from the influence of the Lion, the Lion's influence does not affect him" (May 17, 1924, in "From Beetroot to Buddhism"). In other words, any effects that occur at this time are due to the *absence* of the influence of the constellation of the Lion. 4) With Steiner, the *primary* thing that the Moon both reflects and blocks is not the zodiac, but the *Sun*. Thus it is the Moon's *synodic* (relative to the Sun) rhythm that is of primary importance for the plant world, not its sidereal (relative to the fixed stars) rhythm, let alone any trigonal sidereal rhythm. This is why Steiner recommends using the full Moon when sowing seeds (SFRA, p. 117), a practice which Thun specifically discourages because she says she found it led to poor storage quality. (One could only wish that she would publish the full details of these experiments, because, once again, Spiess looked for this effect in his experiments with carrots, but could not find it.) I conclude that Maria Thun's and Rudolf Steiner's understanding of how the heavens and the earth interact are quite different; arguably they are not even complementary. I do feel that everyone should be free to practice any brand of biodynamics they want to, and even to peddle goods based on their brand of biodynamics. But I do not like to see one brand being confused with another. Frau Thun is welcome to claim that her brand of biodynamics is the better than any other, and to sell her calendar to anyone who is willing to buy it, but it is extremely unfortunate that today Thun's biodynamics is very often taken to be Steiner's biodynamics. I do not particularly fault Frau Thun for this, but rather the widespread lack of clarity and clarification on the part of the official representatives of Steiner's biodynamics. I hope this letter goes some way toward rectifying this situation. Sincerely yours, Malcolm Gardner (Copyright © 2000) From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 23:29:14 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15926 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:29:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA05908; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:23:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05766 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:19:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca98.vthokies.net [206.153.172.98]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA10857 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:58:02 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.0.29.1.20000123230550.00a63220@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.29 (Beta) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:26:31 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3276 At 08:42 PM 1/23/00 -0600, you wrote: [snip] > >From now on I will stop harassing your VIP clients but will take my > business and honest queries elsewhere. I only hope that in the future a > new, more democratic, more institutional and less biased and personality > dependent, electronic forum be formed to substitute this one that IMO > your are now painfully trashing. Please feel free to erase my name from > the list of recipients. > >I wish for you a long and meaningful life friend and please give my best >to your lovely family. > >Warm regards. > >(btw and for obvious reasons, I will not cross post this to sanet, but for >those interested, I will post in that forum the potential reply of Dr. >Campbell to Ms Fallon's post) > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > Dear Guillermo, For your information, I would very much miss your contributions if your name were to be erased from BDNow subscriber list. I did not find anything offensive in your response to Ms. Fallon on BDNow, but it my impression that what she and/or Allan were upset/embarrassed by was your cross-posting of her (intemperate) remarks to another list. Perhaps what we do need are explicit ground rules about cross-posting (I don't recall seeing such). Sincerely yours, Malcolm Gardner From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 23 23:43:56 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16072 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:43:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA06879; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:37:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA06820 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:36:41 -0500 (EST) From: Andyschad@aol.com Received: from Andyschad@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.c5.fdb90e (4447) for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:41:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:41:53 EST Subject: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 47 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3277 Hi Guillermo, I too value your postings and would regret you leaving the list now. I appreciate your manner, clarity and content. sincerely Andreas From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 00:37:19 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16628 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 00:37:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA10968; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 00:31:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA10315 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 00:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.50.58.91] (A34.reach.net [204.50.58.65]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA28702 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 00:33:05 -0500 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 00:33:05 -0500 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Re: Thun's calendar work (long) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3278 > >Dear Allan, > > That's a good question, but I don't want to say how I feel about >her "calendar work" without presenting at least a rough overview of the >facts. That way you can also draw your own conclusions. For clarity, >before reviewing the experimental work, I will first spell out Thun's >"sidereal trigon theory," which is the basis for the recommendations in her >calendar ("Working with the Stars"). Fabulous posting Malcolm...this is exactly the sort of discussion I was hoping to see out on the list. Clear and extremely helpful to someone like me trying to sort out different bits and pieces. > Spiess' final work goes far beyond merely being a test of Thun's >theory; it also demonstrates several consistent patterns of lunar influence >(besides the full Moon) that may be of great practical significance. I >hope these will soon be published in English. In short, Spiess found clear >lunar effects, but not of the kind that Frau Thun postulates. Can you keep us posted on Spiess' work on lunar influences, and when/where these emerge in english? Regards, Geoff Heinricks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 02:21:39 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA17478 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 02:21:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA20010; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 02:15:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA19807 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 02:10:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([210.55.144.176]) by mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000124071518.RVMV3352759.mta4-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:15:18 +1300 Message-ID: <388BFC6A.2758@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:16:58 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNOW Subject: off: GE alert Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3279 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:33:02 +0500 To: dbarker@ifg.org From: Vandana Shiva Subject: Alert on Biotech Industry using "Organic" as Trojan Horse, Dear Debi, The biotech as organic stunt is being replayed in India after its defeat in the USA. Please mobilize your organic bregade to bombard the UNDP chief in the US and the resident representative of UNDP in India to scrap this meeting and hold a meeting on sustainable agriculture and organic farming in association with full participation of the Agriculture Ministry and of the organic agriculture movements in India. I enclose an Alert which you can circulate among the members of IFG and IFA. The address of UNDP Resident representative in India is Dr. Brenda Gael Mcsweeney, United Nations Development Programme, 55 - Lodi Estate, Post Box No. 3059, New Dlhi - 110003 -India Tel: 0091-11-4628877, Fax: 91-11-4627612 Email: ind@undp.org URL: http://www.undp.org.in UNDP Chief in USA Mark Mallock Brown Chief of Administration UNDP 1, UN Plaza, New York, USA Tel: 001 - 212 - 8262058, 9065001 Email: registries@undp.org Love Vandana ___________________________________________________________________Organic - Stay Organic Alert The Biotech Industry uses "Organic" as Trojan Horse to enter Indian Market On February 8th 2000, the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) is holding a meeting on "the Role of Business Partnership in Promoting Trade and Sustainable Development" to promote biotechnology as Organic. This attempt to sell Genetically Engineered (G. E.) as organic had earlier been used in USA, but failed due to the protests by thousands of organic farmers and consumers. The fact that organic is being used as a Trojan Horse to launch G. E. products in India is evident from the total absence of the organic farming movement in the UNDP programme. In fact even the Agriculture Ministry is missing from the programme. Instead, it is officials of the Commerce Ministry who will be dealing with organic farming. Representatives of Mahyco, the Indian seed company bought up by the US Biotech company Monsanto, through whom Monsanto plans to launch its G.E. products in India, will be playing a leading role in the public private partnership. While last year Monsanto was visible and aggresive imarekting G.E. crops in India, it now operates in biotech debates using MAHYCO using as a shield. Indian farmers organisation had uprooted Monsanto's G.E. field trials in December 1998. The Research Foundation for Science, Technology and Ecology, New Delhi, has also filed a case in the Indian Supreme Court to stop the field trials since they violate Biosafety regulations at every level. Since the global biotechnology industry is facing popular resistance in India, an attempt is being made to launch biotechnology via the public sector and as an organic option. We are concerned that instead of promoting genuine organic agriculture and biosafety, the UNDP is helping the biotech industry by confusing G.E. as organic and use the public sector to launch G.E. products. This is an attempt to hijack the organic label for the biotech industry. While using organic as a Trojan Horse, the unleashing of G.E. products in India will undermine organic agriculture by creating genetic pollution. This is yet another attempt by the biotech industry interests to undo the Biosafety Protocol negotiations currently underway in Montreal, and to reduce all biotech discussion to trade by taking them to WTO. This attempt to take Biotech to WTO was made at Seattle but failed because of protests by citizens, Third World countries and European Environment Ministers. We want organic to stay organic and be kept totally separate from G.E. We want the public sector to play a public role in working with farmers to evolve farmers' varieties of the desired crops that India grows and needs so that our biodiversity, sustainable agriculture and diverse food systems can be kept alive. Robert Anderson Member Physicians and Scientists for Responsible Genetics http://www.psrg.org.nz From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 03:06:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA17747 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 03:06:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA21925; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 02:59:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA21674 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 02:55:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([210.55.161.148]) by mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000124080034.SCJK3352759.mta4-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:00:34 +1300 Message-ID: <388C0707.210D@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:02:15 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNOW Subject: Garuda Books - Zodiacal development Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3280 I have just posted an article on the Garuda web site which outlines a process of three stages of development which takes place within the zodiac. This zodiac development process has many interesting applications. Some of which I outline in later chapters of "Spiral Astrology" and several more BD applications I have yet to post to the net as part of "Astrological Science" which will be posted up next. I welcome feedback on this. ( I am posting this to the web site instead of BDNOW as I can put up diagrams on the site which I can not do here) The chapter can be found at http://free.prohosting.com/~rimu1/books/index.html click on Spiral Astrology - top right then "Equinoctial Zodiac & Seasonal Zodiac" cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 04:51:27 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA18415 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 04:51:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA25972; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 04:45:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA25913 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 04:43:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from siesta (p26-max3.akl.ihug.co.nz [206.17.115.154]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id WAA31292 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:49:15 +1300 Message-ID: <006801bf664f$6dc2dd80$9a7311ce@siesta> From: "I & K Buckingham" To: References: <38829CB8.5CA8@xtra.co.nz> <4.3.0.29.1.20000122215222.00a57dd0@swva.net> Subject: Re: mineral accumulators Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:43:03 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3281 ----- Original Message ----- From: gardner > I am a little confused here. You seem to be distinguishing > between "accumulators" (which accumulate certain elements in their tissues > even when they are scarce in the soil) and "super-accumulators" (which > accumulate certain elements even when they are abundant in the soil). On > the other hand, you speak of some (most?) plants "putting in more than they > take out". What are these, "negative accumulators"? Are they accumulating > elements from the atmosphere? Malcolm Perhaps to clarify my thoughts, if I explain how I see the spreadsheet being used may help matters. Firstly in the market garden situation. Using dandelion as the example. We see that it is reported as being high in phosphate (P). Now if my garden was low in P I could look at the chart see that Dandelion has good P content and encourage its growth. I suspect, however, that I would not add a great deal to the P content of the soil, using chemical soil test analysis data. But by adding to the compost heap or to a liquid brew and exposing the break down of the plant to the compost preps then I believe we will get far better results. To quote Pfeiffer from Soil Fertility "The compost made of weeds or of medicinal herbs can carry to the soil just what can be brought to it in no other way, in a form organically in harmony with it. Since, to a large degree, we have to do with dynamic effects, the most minute quantities of this substance, or that, may often be sufficient." (Soil Fertility, Pg 125) So as a gardener it is a way of increasing certain mineral levels. Not to be relied on solely I might add. The super accumulators, as you call them, would be like stinging nettle that helps to decrease the iron content of the soil. (Soil Fertility, Pg 89) Those used in a water treatment bed system could be incorporated here as well. Chapter Eleven of Soil fertility explains plant dynamics far better than I can. Yes and no are large sentences for me :>) On a livestock operation I believe the mineral accumulator section has an important use. If when I put my stock into a field with many dock, and though the animals are fully fed, they selectively seek out the dock then this could indicate a mineral deficiency in my pastures. Magnesium would be a likely candidate if this is round calving. Pasture analysis/blood tests would verify this for me. So like the plants as indicators for the soil conditions the accumulator plants can be indicators for the animals grazing those soils. Hope this has helped clarify. Regards Ian Buckingham Maungatawhiri New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 07:44:42 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA19461 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 07:44:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA02632; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 07:37:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from earth.ncn.net (ncn.net [199.120.120.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA02450 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 07:33:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([206.72.53.46]) by earth.ncn.net (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA02898 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 06:28:50 -0600 Message-ID: <001b01bf6667$f5a418a0$2e3548ce@default> From: "Mike or Mona Majorowicz" To: References: <388B07F3.43427AA4@erols.com> <388B2A28.26DA7C6F@pop.spkn.uswest.net><388B4C20.5207@globalnet.co.uk> Subject: Re: SOY was Re: Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 06:38:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3282 Allan- I'm not sure how current your information is on the organic soy market. Last year the price of organic beans paid to farmers plummeted to about 50% of it's previous value. Mike Majorowicz ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2000 4:35 PM Subject: SOY was Re: > Dear Rex - > > I believe it was Ted Rogers, BD Now! member and USDA honcho, that > drew my attention to the fact that much of the 'organic' soy in the > market today is being drawn in from commercial sources. This is > deduced by the way the pricing for oganic soy beans has remained > constant while there has been 'revolution' in their production > methods. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 08:10:47 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19963 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:10:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03999; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:04:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03740 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:00:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.50] (pm3shep1-163-50.intrepid.net [209.190.163.50]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA21092 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:06:22 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:02:57 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3283 Dear Guillermo - I sincerely hope and pray that this emotional period passes swiftly for you and that you bounce back with your old, lovely, generous self as soon as you are able. Before I read your post this morning, I had already made agreements to 'put on the blinders' as Alan York is fond of saying, and to not allow myself to be drawn into lengthy iteration of BD Now! as I have for the past too long now. I'm going to keep that promise because so many are dependent upon me and what this farm does for them. Hopefully, someone else will find the time to answer your 'assertions' and address your disappointments in the detail you deserve. In the meantime, let me bring out these points. 1. The fact that you are free to post whatever you feel like about me or most anything else invalidates your assertion that 2. You have never demanded credentials from Hugh Lovel, no need for Hugh to be an agronomist before he criticizes agriculture at large and proposes his own strongly alternative solutions, is there? Do you find it more difficult to extend the same courtesy of 'strength of personality' to an older anglo woman? It appears that you do. Why, it isn't even enough that she collaborate with a credentialed nutritionist. She lacks credentials and therefore is invalidated. This of course, is a sensibility that is completely contrary to the > >For clarification: I have not problem with respectful rebuttle. I'm >>not asking everyone to agree with everything that is put forward by >>any means. On the other hand, don't ask her to spend a lot of time >>and effort documenting her assertions. Read her book, or take her >>assertions or leave them. It's outside of the spirit of this >>relationship to ask her to supply footnotes (dammit!) >> Thanks -Allan >> >>>Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:44:06 EST >>>Subject: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 >>>To: igg@igg.com >>> >>>I consider that B12 requirements cannot be fulfilled by plant >>>foods under any >>>circumstances. >>> >>>When Steiner talked about vegetarianism, he was talking about replacing meat >>>with milk--and raw milk at that--and not about going on a vegan >>>diet. I have >>>no problems with lacto-ovo vegetarianism as long as those practicing it can >>>obtain raw milk products. (B12 is destroyed by pasteurization.) >>>However, I >>>would hope that vegetarians who are not doing well on milk >>>products, or their >>>children are not growing properly, would have the humility to include some >>>other animal foods in their diet. >>> >>>I am not a nutritionist and have never claimed to be. My co-author Mary Enig >>>is a PhD in nutrition science. The statements I make about nutrition are >>>backed by references, given at the end of the introduction to Nourishing >>>Traditions. >>> >>>Sally Fallon >> > >Dear Allan: > >I did not know that I had to treat Ms. Fallon any differently than >what I treat anyone else in this list. (any other complains out >there?). > >I am sorry, I forgot you were the "owner" of this list and therefore >you are now probably expecting that everyone here conforms to your >personal position and supports your individual interests. If that is >the case lets make the rules and objectives crystal clear please. >Let me start proposing the first couple of ground rules for BD-Now >future interactions that have became obvious to me in recent times: > >1.- Because you were once fired from being the editor of the >Biodynamic journal and the BD-l list by the President of the BDA, >therefore and in order to nourish your resentments, we will all have >to indiscriminately doubt, insult and flame the representatives >associated with the BDFGA or Demeter and blindly support you in >doing that. > >2.- Because Ms. Sally Fallon is one of the regular speakers in the >Mid Atlantic BD conference and because you may have other business >interest with her (ie.selling beef or whatever), we will not be >allowed to question her statements, we must only limit urselves to >offer her full and blind support in order to propagate the ideas in >her book, with the objective to help her rise to being yet another >shooting star in the heavens of the fad diets market place. > > >Having proposed that, can you now explain why I should not " ask her >to spend a lot of time and effort documenting her assertions". I do >take the time to document and provide references to my posts, so >does most of the people in this list, that is one of the reasons why >it has been so valuable until now. Why she should not do it ? Why >is she an exemption here ? > >Now let me think, wow!, ARE YOU IMPLYING THAT SHE CAN'T ? !!!!!!! > >I mean an author familiar with his/her topic should be able to >provide support to his/her statements almost effortlessly. Why is >it so troublesome and time consuming for Ms Fallon to do so?, is it >probably for the same reason that she employed in her book a >co-author with the qualifications she is missing ?, or is it >probably the reason why she reads out loud from a prepared "script" >in her so called public speaking engagements ?, or is it probably >for the same reason that she dismissed questions with an easy "buy >my book and you will learn the answer to your question" at your >conference or, probably for the same reason that when she was >confronted directly and repeatedly, she cynically admitted that some >of her hard statements were based on things she overheard in, >literally, "THE BUZZ"?. (many in this list hear her said that at >your conference) > >On a different subject, since when is this list a place where you >either accept other people positions or "leave them". I thought >this was indeed a discussion forum, is it not? Please tell me what >is the "spirit" of the list now then. Probably a forum where the >only ideas that we are able to discuss are those which you find >comfortable ?. > >Why is it so wrong to ask for references ?, As I said before, the >most valuable thing I have learn in my education is that knowledge >is relative. Why then should I take at face value the assertions >and interpretations of third parties,specially when I have the >capacity to interpret and evaluate the sources where a given >information first originated. Similar to Ms Fallon position re. >milk, I like the ideas raw, unprocessed and unadulterated. What is >wrong with that ? Specially when I am doubtful about the universal >validity and concerned about the public health implications of some >of her so called "truths" about nutrition. > >In my posts to her I have always stated that I suspected her >perspective to have valid points, but not universal, not an absolute >truth, but relative and constrained to a set of conditions which are >not evident from reading her material, but probably evident by >reading the original papers from where she extracted her ideas. Or, >is she or her associates doing original research ? > >She has the habit of making very strong and definite statements and, >specially in the field of nutrition, history has proven the >inadequacy of such posture. In contrast to her post calling Dr. >Campbell "a complete fool", I do not believe that such thing as "a >complete fool" has ever existed, I strongly believe that any opinion >is a valid one and our task is to take it apart, understand it >within its basis and its context, and from there build are own >criteria to be used also within context and within a relative and >limited framework. We are all free to decide by using our human >attributes. > >Please extend my apologies to Ms. Fallon, it has never been my >intention to offend her, just to challenge her assertions in a >general context. If she was insulted or troubled by me doing that, >I honestly feel sorry, but I can help it. As far as I can tell, I >never used a disrespectful language or attitude in my posts to her. > > >From now on I will stop harassing your VIP clients but will take >my business and honest queries elsewhere. I only hope that in the >future a new, more democratic, more institutional and less biased >and personality dependent, electronic forum be formed to substitute >this one that IMO your are now painfully trashing. Please feel free >to erase my name from the list of recipients. > >I wish for you a long and meaningful life friend and please give my >best to your lovely family. > >Warm regards. > >(btw and for obvious reasons, I will not cross post this to sanet, >but for those interested, I will post in that forum the potential >reply of Dr. Campbell to Ms Fallon's post) > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 08:39:38 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20227 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:39:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA05820; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:33:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA05343 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:30:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.50] (pm3shep1-163-50.intrepid.net [209.190.163.50]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26553 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:35:55 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.29.1.20000123230550.00a63220@swva.net> References: <4.3.0.29.1.20000123230550.00a63220@swva.net> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:30:28 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3284 >Dear Guillermo, > > For your information, I would very much miss your >contributions if your name were to be erased from BDNow subscriber >list. I did not find anything offensive in your response to Ms. >Fallon on BDNow, but it my impression that what she and/or Allan >were upset/embarrassed by was your cross-posting of her >(intemperate) remarks to another list. Perhaps what we do need are >explicit ground rules about cross-posting (I don't recall seeing >such). > >Sincerely yours, > >Malcolm Gardner Dear Malcolm - I agree in principle with what you have said above. What I tried to make clear in my post regarding this incident was that my expectations were inaccurate and I was very disappointed that this had insued. Sally Fallon's appearance on BD Now! certainly took a different tone for me than it appears to have for Guillermo, which, it would, understandably, because it was issues over the quality of salt that lead to inviting her to answer a few questions for the list. As you are well aware yourself, I'm sure, email correspondence is very time consuming. "Between the Valley and the Mountain falls the typing." I really would expect that this were understandable when imposing on a public figure who has a very full schedule. But of course, I would also expect that a reference to an author's published works for documentation would not be construed as an attempt to sell books. (As noted previously, I have been to the home of Sally Fallon and I see no want for money there.) Obviously, something outside of the realm of normal expectations was occuring here. My greatest concern, however, was that, for the first time in my experience, Sally had spoken publically about her cosmology, which draws from anthroposophy and theosophy. I was touched by this conservative lady's openess on BD Now! I cannot see that these statements about her personal beliefs were appropriate for a posting to SANET. I can, however, see how some people in the futurewill use her views of 'unilineal evolution' (the way academics say that you believe in Creation) to invalidate the good things that she says. More than anything else, I value Sally Fallon as a person who works to substantiate the value of BIODYNAMIC FOOD and has actually set up a foundation to do so. As I have said before, larger markets for biodynamically grown foods create opportunities for stronger and better biodynamic farms. So, yes, there are no guidelines for BD Now! that would cover the above concerns, just as it is not written in the public record that you shouldn't spit into my face while I'm talking to you in a civil manner. Fortunately, for the most part, we are all aware of the value of such courtesy and extend it willingly. I, too, hope that Guillermo stays on the list. I admire him very much, have always valued his friendship, and look forward to what he has to say. Sincere, -Allan Balliett -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 08:58:43 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20431 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:58:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07072; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:52:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06898 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:50:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.50] (pm3shep1-163-50.intrepid.net [209.190.163.50]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA30810 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:55:57 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <388BC7DE.7E00E237@erols.com> References: <388B1CB0.44186DCD@erols.com> <388BC7DE.7E00E237@erols.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:57:52 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Sally Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3285 >But the burden of proof - ah; that's going to have to lie with the >person making the claims. I trust I'll find what I need in the texts, >both on-line and off. Because I DO want to believe what she says. >Again, it just seems intuitive. Come on, Guys. Sally Fallon didn't just spring out of somewhere with 'her own unsubstantiated ideas.' For years she has been the newletter editor for the Price-Pottenger Foundation, another group which through their studies of the health of cultures before their exposure to industrial food and afterwards has openly supported biodynamic food in this country, because, above all else, it is REAL FOOD. Sally's own foundation does the same. And she campaigns tirelessly for a return to traditional foods, speaking pro bono at events for consumers and for farmers all over this country. I would think it would be most appropriate to listen to her and make up your own mind about her point of view and to ask her what questions you felt you needed to better understand her assertions rather than to challenge the accuracy of what she has to say face to face in a public forum. And above all else, to not take her responses to this rather private group - - no matter how outrageous they are - - and attempt to invoke a confrontation with people outside of this group. Anyway, I'm anxious to hear your report, Robert. Do you have her book? Later -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 08:58:51 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20441 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:58:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07111; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:52:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06913 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:50:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.50] (pm3shep1-163-50.intrepid.net [209.190.163.50]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA30863 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:56:09 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001b01bf6667$f5a418a0$2e3548ce@default> References: <388B07F3.43427AA4@erols.com> <388B2A28.26DA7C6F@pop.spkn.uswest.net><388B4C20.5207@globalnet.co.uk> <001b01bf6667$f5a418a0$2e3548ce@default> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:59:25 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: SOY was Re: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3286 >Allan- > >I'm not sure how current your information is on the organic soy market. >Last year the price of organic beans paid to farmers plummeted to about 50% >of it's previous value. > >Mike Majorowicz > Mike - I think this is consistent with my point: a large supply of 'organic' soy beans coming in from China would cause this effect, would it not? -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 10:00:53 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21678 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:00:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12504; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:54:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12026 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:50:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.50] (pm3shep1-163-50.intrepid.net [209.190.163.50]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA12003 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:56:06 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:50:18 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: GUILLERMO WAS Re: Fwd: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3287 Dear list and Guillermo - While I am terribly concerned by how upset Guillermo is, I'm not certain that a literal response to this message would accomplish much in restoring relations with him at this point. Myself, I'm a biodynamic farmer first and a CSA moderator second (and Maura, the wife, w.b. only too glad to tell you, a family man after that) and the season has already begun. There is much I should be doing rather than engaging in endless iteration on BD Now!, especially with a person who has demonstrated that his recent bouts of pain and slashing outs are probably coming from sources that I cannot hope to touch. I have a deep regard and appreciation for Guillermo and hope that he and I are able to work together again in the very near future. In the meantime, can we work up a group understanding that when 'primary sources' accept an invitation to come onto the list that we sit as respectfully with them as we would if they were 'lecturing' to us in a common hall? That we do ask questions as we would in such a hall and supress any attempts to press for 'proofs' beyond what are offered? Am I being unreasonable here? What I'm trying to deal with is getting someone to share their time with us and to not make it a great burdon on them. I think that some good information and good fun can come from having 'celebrity' drop in now and then; I don't think we need to get deadly serious and confrontational about these visits. A little feedback please. I'd also like to take the issues raised about my relationship with the BDA. First of all, it wasn't so much that I was fired as it was that BD-L was dropped. I chose to pick it up and keep it going, pro bono, for all of these years. My anger - and smack me if I'm lying to myself - is not directed to personalities but to individuals who sit in positions that are designated to either promote the avail. of info. to farmers and consumers or to promote markets for biodynamic food and chose to obfuscate rather than communicate. It's an unwholesome analogy, I'm sure, but indulge me: my 'rage' over certain 'officials' is more similar to Christ's rage at the money changers in the temple than it is 'revenge' oriented. (I admit, it brings me to tears that some people can be so reductionist before such a strong demonstration of personal sacrifice as my family and myself have made to keep this group going for all of this time with only a modicum of financial support from the list itself and none from other sources. And, yes, Phyl, I imagine in ways that I cannot currently comprehend that I do the same to others who feel that they are working equally hard and at such a great personal cost.) More to the point: I spoke with Chuck Beedy a few weeks back about getting more BDA involvement on BD Now! and at that time he told me that anyone who was interested didnt' have a computer or couldn't type, except, perhaps, for Heinz Grotzke. We agreed at that time that that Heinze w.b. welcomed to the list and that I would make it a safe haven for him. What hs not happened is any contact by Heinz or Chuck after this. Sure, I took exception to DEMETER posting through a third party after Hugh had made contact etc. However, in the real world, I have spoken to Anne about becoming Demeter certified here and plan to do that this season. I believe most of the above has been stated on BD Now! in the recent past. So, in a way, Guillermo is witnessing for his own erroneous perceptions. Next, let me clarify the question of 'ethics' with my involvement with Sally Fallon. Gosh, where to begin? A vegetarian myself, I believe in the wisdom of our ancestors. I believe Sally's work can be validated by simply asking ourselves: was dairy always bad for people? It is my understanding that the demographics on degenerative diseases since WWII would demonstrate that there is some item, process or attitude in the food system that is more destructive to health than consuming whole dairy was to people in the realitively recent past. I endorse her viewpoints. I endorse her values. I feel that she works for the common good and I do notin the least feel that she works for money. She supports biodynamic farms. I'm run a biodynamic farm. She bought 10lbs of ground chuck from me two weeks ago and is probably going to place 4 Jersey cows here in the near future. I do not feel that I have been compromised by her willingness to support biodynamic farms. I do feel that I can work with her to make her more effective at doing this. I'd appreciate any complaints or questions anyone has about this relationship. As far as the rest of this post, I'll leave it up to you to ask me to clarify for you. (I do appreciate the people who express their concerns/questions to me off-line, but do it here if you think everyone will benefit.) Except, someone help me with this one because I forget much and understand little: didn't we just go through a spat with Andrew and Guillermo in which Guillermo accused Andrew of using his BD Now! posts without permission? Didn't we 'agree' that ownership of the posts to BD Now! remain in the hands of both the list AND the poster therefore it would have been appropriate for Guillermo to ask permission from me before he x-posted my post containing Sally's info? I'll try to get the old guidelines posted and we can discuss them. Thanks for bearing with this, -Allan Balliett > >For clarification: I have not problem with respectful rebuttle. I'm >>not asking everyone to agree with everything that is put forward by >>any means. On the other hand, don't ask her to spend a lot of time >>and effort documenting her assertions. Read her book, or take her >>assertions or leave them. It's outside of the spirit of this >>relationship to ask her to supply footnotes (dammit!) >> Thanks -Allan >> >>>Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:44:06 EST >>>Subject: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 >>>To: igg@igg.com >>> >>>I consider that B12 requirements cannot be fulfilled by plant >>>foods under any >>>circumstances. >>> >>>When Steiner talked about vegetarianism, he was talking about replacing meat >>>with milk--and raw milk at that--and not about going on a vegan >>>diet. I have >>>no problems with lacto-ovo vegetarianism as long as those practicing it can >>>obtain raw milk products. (B12 is destroyed by pasteurization.) >>>However, I >>>would hope that vegetarians who are not doing well on milk >>>products, or their >>>children are not growing properly, would have the humility to include some >>>other animal foods in their diet. >>> >>>I am not a nutritionist and have never claimed to be. My co-author Mary Enig >>>is a PhD in nutrition science. The statements I make about nutrition are >>>backed by references, given at the end of the introduction to Nourishing >>>Traditions. >>> >>>Sally Fallon >> > >Dear Allan: > >I did not know that I had to treat Ms. Fallon any differently than >what I treat anyone else in this list. (any other complains out >there?). > >I am sorry, I forgot you were the "owner" of this list and therefore >you are now probably expecting that everyone here conforms to your >personal position and supports your individual interests. If that is >the case lets make the rules and objectives crystal clear please. >Let me start proposing the first couple of ground rules for BD-Now >future interactions that have became obvious to me in recent times: > >1.- Because you were once fired from being the editor of the >Biodynamic journal and the BD-l list by the President of the BDA, >therefore and in order to nourish your resentments, we will all have >to indiscriminately doubt, insult and flame the representatives >associated with the BDFGA or Demeter and blindly support you in >doing that. > >2.- Because Ms. Sally Fallon is one of the regular speakers in the >Mid Atlantic BD conference and because you may have other business >interest with her (ie.selling beef or whatever), we will not be >allowed to question her statements, we must only limit urselves to >offer her full and blind support in order to propagate the ideas in >her book, with the objective to help her rise to being yet another >shooting star in the heavens of the fad diets market place. > > >Having proposed that, can you now explain why I should not " ask her >to spend a lot of time and effort documenting her assertions". I do >take the time to document and provide references to my posts, so >does most of the people in this list, that is one of the reasons why >it has been so valuable until now. Why she should not do it ? Why >is she an exemption here ? > >Now let me think, wow!, ARE YOU IMPLYING THAT SHE CAN'T ? !!!!!!! > >I mean an author familiar with his/her topic should be able to >provide support to his/her statements almost effortlessly. Why is >it so troublesome and time consuming for Ms Fallon to do so?, is it >probably for the same reason that she employed in her book a >co-author with the qualifications she is missing ?, or is it >probably the reason why she reads out loud from a prepared "script" >in her so called public speaking engagements ?, or is it probably >for the same reason that she dismissed questions with an easy "buy >my book and you will learn the answer to your question" at your >conference or, probably for the same reason that when she was >confronted directly and repeatedly, she cynically admitted that some >of her hard statements were based on things she overheard in, >literally, "THE BUZZ"?. (many in this list hear her said that at >your conference) > >On a different subject, since when is this list a place where you >either accept other people positions or "leave them". I thought >this was indeed a discussion forum, is it not? Please tell me what >is the "spirit" of the list now then. Probably a forum where the >only ideas that we are able to discuss are those which you find >comfortable ?. > >Why is it so wrong to ask for references ?, As I said before, the >most valuable thing I have learn in my education is that knowledge >is relative. Why then should I take at face value the assertions >and interpretations of third parties,specially when I have the >capacity to interpret and evaluate the sources where a given >information first originated. Similar to Ms Fallon position re. >milk, I like the ideas raw, unprocessed and unadulterated. What is >wrong with that ? Specially when I am doubtful about the universal >validity and concerned about the public health implications of some >of her so called "truths" about nutrition. > >In my posts to her I have always stated that I suspected her >perspective to have valid points, but not universal, not an absolute >truth, but relative and constrained to a set of conditions which are >not evident from reading her material, but probably evident by >reading the original papers from where she extracted her ideas. Or, >is she or her associates doing original research ? > >She has the habit of making very strong and definite statements and, >specially in the field of nutrition, history has proven the >inadequacy of such posture. In contrast to her post calling Dr. >Campbell "a complete fool", I do not believe that such thing as "a >complete fool" has ever existed, I strongly believe that any opinion >is a valid one and our task is to take it apart, understand it >within its basis and its context, and from there build are own >criteria to be used also within context and within a relative and >limited framework. We are all free to decide by using our human >attributes. > >Please extend my apologies to Ms. Fallon, it has never been my >intention to offend her, just to challenge her assertions in a >general context. If she was insulted or troubled by me doing that, >I honestly feel sorry, but I can help it. As far as I can tell, I >never used a disrespectful language or attitude in my posts to her. > >>From now on I will stop harassing your VIP clients but will take my >>business and honest queries elsewhere. I only hope that in the >>future a new, more democratic, more institutional and less biased >>and personality dependent, electronic forum be formed to substitute >>this one that IMO your are now painfully trashing. Please feel >>free to erase my name from the list of recipients. > >I wish for you a long and meaningful life friend and please give my >best to your lovely family. > >Warm regards. > >(btw and for obvious reasons, I will not cross post this to sanet, >but for those interested, I will post in that forum the potential >reply of Dr. Campbell to Ms Fallon's post) > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 10:15:18 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21906 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:15:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13777; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:09:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13231 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:04:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha15s187.d.shentel.net [204.111.54.187]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04628 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:11:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <388C6AF9.7DA14563@LightExpression.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:08:41 -0500 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Devas References: <200001231742.LAA11380@mail.txcyber.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3288 flylo@txcyber.com wrote: > > I also really REALLY liked the interview that Wayne and Sharon > put forth to the group to read. Sharon, are the Diva Spirits the same > as in Perelandra, is this where you learned of this? > It would be wonderful if ya'll could eventually set up your farmstead > as a teaching atmosphere for just such methods as you describe. > More people need to be exposed to this style of communication > with our surrounds! > > Martha, (Texas) Hi Martha! Within the Devic realm, are the beings (everywhere) that hold the energy patterns (blueprint) of everything on Earth and Beyond. I became aware of all levels of Nature through many teachings -- Perelandra being one. We already do classes here at Light Expression Farm (and in others environments as well) -- teaching those interested in how to work with Nature, how to contact the many levels of beings, gardening with Nature, using Vibrational Essences for healing and personal evolution. We tend to be as comprehensive (wholistic) as possible here, in our work and teaching. Our upcoming Newsletter will have the 2000 class schedule and topics listed. We also invite visitors to our open house -- to visit and network, and to enjoy the Nature Garden's beauty and energy. In light, Sharon ******** Hi! Wayne here..... I just thought that I would interject here for those who haven't necessarily made the connection -- the same consciousness which Steiner worked with in his creation of what is now the BD concept is the consciousness which governs all natural life on our planet. This consciousness (The Devic Kingdom) is that same consciousness which we refer to as being the conceiving intellect from the angelic realm which has produced the work which we do here at Light Expression Farm. For us, this consciousness is the primary source for all that we do. In light, Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 10:39:24 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22323 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16518; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:33:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15758 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:28:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca224.vthokies.net [206.153.172.224]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19330 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:06:16 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.0.29.1.20000124100932.00a70b80@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.29 (Beta) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:34:55 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: GUILLERMO WAS Re: Fwd: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3289 At 09:50 AM 1/24/00 -0400, Allan wrote: >Except, someone help me with this one because I forget much and understand >little: didn't we just go through a spat with Andrew and Guillermo in >which Guillermo accused Andrew of using his BD Now! posts without >permission? Didn't we 'agree' that ownership of the posts to BD Now! >remain in the hands of both the list AND the poster therefore it would >have been appropriate for Guillermo to ask permission from me before he >x-posted my post containing Sally's info? Allan, I believe there has to be an explicit agreement before this can be assumed. I quote from the Copyright Handbook (Nolo Press 1992), p. 8/18: ****** 4. Joint Author's Rights and Duties in the Absence of a Collaboration Agreement a. Ownership interests Unless they agree otherwise, joint authors each have an undivided interest in the entire work. This is basically the same as joint ownership of a house or other real estate. ... b. Right to exploit work Unless they agree otherwise, each joint author has the right to exercise any or all of the five copyrights inherent in the joint work--that is, any of the authors may reproduce and distribute the work or prepare derivative works based upon it (or display or perform it). Each author may do so without the joint author's consent. ******* Of course, insisting on one's rights is not always the best route to take. But I do think your expectations need to be made quite explicit, lest someone innocently exercise their rights and disappoint you. Best, Malcolm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 11:18:11 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23094 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:18:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20607; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:12:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [154.11.89.179]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20309 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:09:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 29615 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2000 16:15:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.33.110) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 24 Jan 2000 16:15:14 -0000 Message-ID: <015301bf6686$4d9192e0$7d1dd2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: GUILLERMO WAS Re: Fwd: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:15:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3290 The "meat question" was ever one to stir up controversy. I well remember seemingly endless debates at the University of Maryland Food Co-op between the vegetarians who wanted the co-op to drop turkey from the sandwich line offerings, and the "carnivores" who wanted ham and beef added to it....( it never changed, as far as I know) I believe from discussions with public health physicians that Ms. Fallon is right to be concerned about the B12 problem, especially as it relates to growing children. I also see that there is a very real problem with her choice of language in describing Dr Campbell, which would be categorized in those old debates of mine as "proof" that eating meat made one "violent and aggressive towards others". > >Colin Campbell is a complete fool who makes claims for his China study that >>are not true, and who is advocating a vegan death diet for growing >>children. >> >>Sally Fallon Someone who says such a thing should know it will stir up controversy and should expect to be confronted on it, and should have all her arguments lined up and her references ready to go, IMHO. All the more so because she has the book under her belt. Helen Nearing was of the opinion that she could have raised children on her diet, which included a bit of ice cream from time to time along with the veganic bulk of it.... I think it suffices to say that there is a serious nutritional challenge facing anyone who wishes to do so, and that great care and careful study should go into it before it is attempted. I have heard it asserted that, once the transition was made, that strict vegans could successfully obtain B-12 from suitable intestinal microflora; I have also heard it asserted that in eating natural vegetative foods, one can assimilate sufficient B12 from the micro-arthropods that may be present. Finally, here is an assertion found in E.F. Schumacher's A Guide for the Perplexed: that Therese Neumann lived for many years on only the daily eucharist as her food intake. Schumacher claims that this was well studied and documented. I also want to add that the BD ideas are themselves inherently controversial to the average person. One should expect seekers to find them, at least, challenging. As someone who has read widely on these matters, I might suggest Survival into the 21st Century, by Viktoras Kulvinskas, as piece of veganic literature worth looking at, if not for any other reason, to challenge your existing weltanschauung. Reflecting further, I think Allan, that you are using this as a vehicle for being controlling of the list in an unreasonable way. Perhaps you are still smarting from the teach-in Guillermo gave you on Einstein, or perhaps it all stems from other more profound things, but in any case, you are the list owner, and you call the shots the way you see them. Perhaps you should create a much more carefully selected group of list members and assume much less about their understanding of what is expected from them. Then you can at least be disappointed based on failure to meet clearly stated standards, instead of disappointed because outrageous language calls forth critical comments. Namaste, Frank Teuton -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, January 24, 2000 10:00 AM Subject: GUILLERMO WAS Re: Fwd: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 >Dear list and Guillermo - > >While I am terribly concerned by how upset Guillermo is, I'm not >certain that a literal response to this message would accomplish much >in restoring relations with him at this point. Myself, I'm a >biodynamic farmer first and a CSA moderator second (and Maura, the >wife, w.b. only too glad to tell you, a family man after that) and >the season has already begun. There is much I should be doing rather >than engaging in endless iteration on BD Now!, especially with a >person who has demonstrated that his recent bouts of pain and >slashing outs are probably coming from sources that I cannot hope to >touch. > >I have a deep regard and appreciation for Guillermo and hope that he >and I are able to work together again in the very near future. > >In the meantime, can we work up a group understanding that when >'primary sources' accept an invitation to come onto the list that we >sit as respectfully with them as we would if they were 'lecturing' to >us in a common hall? That we do ask questions as we would in such a >hall and supress any attempts to press for 'proofs' beyond what are >offered? > >Am I being unreasonable here? What I'm trying to deal with is getting >someone to share their time with us and to not make it a great burdon >on them. I think that some good information and good fun can come >from having 'celebrity' drop in now and then; I don't think we need >to get deadly serious and confrontational about these visits. > >A little feedback please. > > >I'd also like to take the issues raised about my relationship with the BDA. >First of all, it wasn't so much that I was fired as it was that BD-L >was dropped. I chose to pick it up and keep it going, pro bono, for >all of these years. My anger - and smack me if I'm lying to myself - >is not directed to personalities but to individuals who sit in >positions that are designated to either promote the avail. of info. >to farmers and consumers or to promote markets for biodynamic food >and chose to obfuscate rather than communicate. It's an unwholesome >analogy, I'm sure, but indulge me: my 'rage' over certain 'officials' >is more similar to Christ's rage at the money changers in the temple >than it is 'revenge' oriented. (I admit, it brings me to tears that >some people can be so reductionist before such a strong demonstration >of personal sacrifice as my family and myself have made to keep this >group going for all of this time with only a modicum of financial >support from the list itself and none from other sources. And, yes, >Phyl, I imagine in ways that I cannot currently comprehend that I do >the same to others who feel that they are working equally hard and at >such a great personal cost.) > >More to the point: I spoke with Chuck Beedy a few weeks back about >getting more BDA involvement on BD Now! and at that time he told me >that anyone who was interested didnt' have a computer or couldn't >type, except, perhaps, for Heinz Grotzke. We agreed at that time that >that Heinze w.b. welcomed to the list and that I would make it a safe >haven for him. What hs not happened is any contact by Heinz or Chuck >after this. > >Sure, I took exception to DEMETER posting through a third party after >Hugh had made contact etc. However, in the real world, I have spoken >to Anne about becoming Demeter certified here and plan to do that >this season. > >I believe most of the above has been stated on BD Now! in the recent >past. So, in a way, Guillermo is witnessing for his own erroneous >perceptions. > >Next, let me clarify the question of 'ethics' with my involvement >with Sally Fallon. Gosh, where to begin? A vegetarian myself, I >believe in the wisdom of our ancestors. I believe Sally's work can be >validated by simply asking ourselves: was dairy always bad for >people? It is my understanding that the demographics on degenerative >diseases since WWII would demonstrate that there is some item, >process or attitude in the food system that is more destructive to >health than consuming whole dairy was to people in the realitively >recent past. > >I endorse her viewpoints. I endorse her values. I feel that she works >for the common good and I do notin the least feel that she works for >money. > >She supports biodynamic farms. I'm run a biodynamic farm. She bought >10lbs of ground chuck from me two weeks ago and is probably going to >place 4 Jersey cows here in the near future. I do not feel that I >have been compromised by her willingness to support biodynamic farms. >I do feel that I can work with her to make her more effective at >doing this. > >I'd appreciate any complaints or questions anyone has about this relationship. > >As far as the rest of this post, I'll leave it up to you to ask me to >clarify for you. (I do appreciate the people who express their >concerns/questions to me off-line, but do it here if you think >everyone will benefit.) > >Except, someone help me with this one because I forget much and >understand little: didn't we just go through a spat with Andrew and >Guillermo in which Guillermo accused Andrew of using his BD Now! >posts without permission? Didn't we 'agree' that ownership of the >posts to BD Now! remain in the hands of both the list AND the poster >therefore it would have been appropriate for Guillermo to ask >permission from me before he x-posted my post containing Sally's info? > >I'll try to get the old guidelines posted and we can discuss them. > >Thanks for bearing with this, > > >-Allan Balliett > > > > > >> >For clarification: I have not problem with respectful rebuttle. I'm >>>not asking everyone to agree with everything that is put forward by >>>any means. On the other hand, don't ask her to spend a lot of time >>>and effort documenting her assertions. Read her book, or take her >>>assertions or leave them. It's outside of the spirit of this >>>relationship to ask her to supply footnotes (dammit!) >>> Thanks -Allan >>> >>>>Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:44:06 EST >>>>Subject: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 >>>>To: igg@igg.com >>>> >>>>I consider that B12 requirements cannot be fulfilled by plant >>>>foods under any >>>>circumstances. >>>> >>>>When Steiner talked about vegetarianism, he was talking about replacing meat >>>>with milk--and raw milk at that--and not about going on a vegan >>>>diet. I have >>>>no problems with lacto-ovo vegetarianism as long as those practicing it can >>>>obtain raw milk products. (B12 is destroyed by pasteurization.) >>>>However, I >>>>would hope that vegetarians who are not doing well on milk >>>>products, or their >>>>children are not growing properly, would have the humility to include some >>>>other animal foods in their diet. >>>> >>>>I am not a nutritionist and have never claimed to be. My co-author Mary Enig >>>>is a PhD in nutrition science. The statements I make about nutrition are >>>>backed by references, given at the end of the introduction to Nourishing >>>>Traditions. >>>> >>>>Sally Fallon >>> >> >>Dear Allan: >> >>I did not know that I had to treat Ms. Fallon any differently than >>what I treat anyone else in this list. (any other complains out >>there?). >> >>I am sorry, I forgot you were the "owner" of this list and therefore >>you are now probably expecting that everyone here conforms to your >>personal position and supports your individual interests. If that is >>the case lets make the rules and objectives crystal clear please. >>Let me start proposing the first couple of ground rules for BD-Now >>future interactions that have became obvious to me in recent times: >> >>1.- Because you were once fired from being the editor of the >>Biodynamic journal and the BD-l list by the President of the BDA, >>therefore and in order to nourish your resentments, we will all have >>to indiscriminately doubt, insult and flame the representatives >>associated with the BDFGA or Demeter and blindly support you in >>doing that. >> >>2.- Because Ms. Sally Fallon is one of the regular speakers in the >>Mid Atlantic BD conference and because you may have other business >>interest with her (ie.selling beef or whatever), we will not be >>allowed to question her statements, we must only limit urselves to >>offer her full and blind support in order to propagate the ideas in >>her book, with the objective to help her rise to being yet another >>shooting star in the heavens of the fad diets market place. >> >> >>Having proposed that, can you now explain why I should not " ask her >>to spend a lot of time and effort documenting her assertions". I do >>take the time to document and provide references to my posts, so >>does most of the people in this list, that is one of the reasons why >>it has been so valuable until now. Why she should not do it ? Why >>is she an exemption here ? >> >>Now let me think, wow!, ARE YOU IMPLYING THAT SHE CAN'T ? !!!!!!! >> >>I mean an author familiar with his/her topic should be able to >>provide support to his/her statements almost effortlessly. Why is >>it so troublesome and time consuming for Ms Fallon to do so?, is it >>probably for the same reason that she employed in her book a >>co-author with the qualifications she is missing ?, or is it >>probably the reason why she reads out loud from a prepared "script" >>in her so called public speaking engagements ?, or is it probably >>for the same reason that she dismissed questions with an easy "buy >>my book and you will learn the answer to your question" at your >>conference or, probably for the same reason that when she was >>confronted directly and repeatedly, she cynically admitted that some >>of her hard statements were based on things she overheard in, >>literally, "THE BUZZ"?. (many in this list hear her said that at >>your conference) >> >>On a different subject, since when is this list a place where you >>either accept other people positions or "leave them". I thought >>this was indeed a discussion forum, is it not? Please tell me what >>is the "spirit" of the list now then. Probably a forum where the >>only ideas that we are able to discuss are those which you find >>comfortable ?. >> >>Why is it so wrong to ask for references ?, As I said before, the >>most valuable thing I have learn in my education is that knowledge >>is relative. Why then should I take at face value the assertions >>and interpretations of third parties,specially when I have the >>capacity to interpret and evaluate the sources where a given >>information first originated. Similar to Ms Fallon position re. >>milk, I like the ideas raw, unprocessed and unadulterated. What is >>wrong with that ? Specially when I am doubtful about the universal >>validity and concerned about the public health implications of some >>of her so called "truths" about nutrition. >> >>In my posts to her I have always stated that I suspected her >>perspective to have valid points, but not universal, not an absolute >>truth, but relative and constrained to a set of conditions which are >>not evident from reading her material, but probably evident by >>reading the original papers from where she extracted her ideas. Or, >>is she or her associates doing original research ? >> >>She has the habit of making very strong and definite statements and, >>specially in the field of nutrition, history has proven the >>inadequacy of such posture. In contrast to her post calling Dr. >>Campbell "a complete fool", I do not believe that such thing as "a >>complete fool" has ever existed, I strongly believe that any opinion >>is a valid one and our task is to take it apart, understand it >>within its basis and its context, and from there build are own >>criteria to be used also within context and within a relative and >>limited framework. We are all free to decide by using our human >>attributes. >> >>Please extend my apologies to Ms. Fallon, it has never been my >>intention to offend her, just to challenge her assertions in a >>general context. If she was insulted or troubled by me doing that, >>I honestly feel sorry, but I can help it. As far as I can tell, I >>never used a disrespectful language or attitude in my posts to her. >> >>>From now on I will stop harassing your VIP clients but will take my >>>business and honest queries elsewhere. I only hope that in the >>>future a new, more democratic, more institutional and less biased >>>and personality dependent, electronic forum be formed to substitute >>>this one that IMO your are now painfully trashing. Please feel >>>free to erase my name from the list of recipients. >> >>I wish for you a long and meaningful life friend and please give my >>best to your lovely family. >> >>Warm regards. >> >>(btw and for obvious reasons, I will not cross post this to sanet, >>but for those interested, I will post in that forum the potential >>reply of Dr. Campbell to Ms Fallon's post) >> >>Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >>Comala, Colima, MEXICO >> > >-- > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 11:37:29 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23413 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22621; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:31:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from enif.involved.com ([206.136.47.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22151 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:26:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from SyGate ([206.136.47.50]) by enif.involved.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61049U4500L450S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:29:41 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000124083200.0094f2d0@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:32:00 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: OFF: More on Mad Cow Disease In-Reply-To: References: <67.df0e9a.25ba10d6@aol.com> <67.df0e9a.25ba10d6@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3291 =======================Electronic Edition======================== . . . RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY #683 . . ---January 20, 2000--- . . HEADLINES: . . MAD COW DISEASE AND HUMANS . . ========== . . Environmental Research Foundation . . P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403 . . Fax (410) 263-8944; E-mail: erf@rachel.org . . ========== . . All back issues are available by E-mail: send E-mail to . . info@rachel.org with the single word HELP in the message. . . Back issues are also available from http://www.rachel.org. . . To start your own free subscription, send E-mail to . . listserv@rachel.org with the words . . SUBSCRIBE RACHEL-WEEKLY YOUR NAME in the message. . . The Rachel newsletter is now also available in Spanish; . . to learn how to subscribe, send the word AYUDA in an . . E-mail message to info@rachel.org. . ================================================================= MAD COW DISEASE AND HUMANS When a new form of an old human disease appeared in England in 1995, some medical specialists immediately suspected that it might be a human version of "mad cow disease," but they had no proof.[1] Mad cow disease had appeared in British dairy cattle for the first time in 1985 and during the subsequent decade 175,000 British cows had died from it. British health authorities spent that decade reassuring the public that there was no danger from eating the meat of infected cows. They said a "species barrier" prevented mad cows from infecting humans. A "species barrier" does prevent many diseases from crossing from one species to another -- for example, measles and canine distemper are closely related diseases, but dogs don't get measles and humans don't get distemper. While the British government was placing its faith in the species barrier, British citizens began to die of a new disease, called "new variant Creutzfeld-Jakob disease" or nvCJD. A similar disease, CJD (Creutzfeld-Jakob disease) had been recognized for a long time but it almost never occurs in people younger than 30; nvCJD, on the other hand, strikes people as young as 13. There are several other differences between CJD and nvCJD, so nvCJD represents something new. To date, nvCJD has killed 48 people in England and one or two others elsewhere in Europe. The main feature of both mad cow disease and nvCJD is the progressive destruction of brain cells, inevitably leading to total disability and death. New research published late in 1999 showed that nvCJD is, in fact, a human form of mad cow disease,[2] dashing all hope that a species barrier can protect humans from this deadly bovine affliction. Mad cow disease is formally known as "bovine spongiform encephalopathy" or BSE. BSE is the cow version of a larger class of diseases called "transmissible spongiform encephalopathies," or TSEs. TSEs can afflict sheep, deer, elk, cows, mink, cats, squirrels, monkeys, humans and other species. In all species the symptoms of TSEs are the same -- progressive destruction of brain cells leading to dementia and death. Traditional Creutzfeld-Jakob disease (CJD) is a rare human affliction. The visible symptoms are similar to Alzheimer's disease; in fact, CJD is sometimes diagnosed as Alzheimer's and therefore may go unrecognized. CJD strikes one in a million people almost all of whom are older than 55. In people younger than age 30, CJD is extremely rare, striking an average of 5 people per billion each year, worldwide (not counting the recent outbreak in England). In cows, the latency (or incubation) period for mad cow disease is about 5 years, meaning that cows have the disease for five years before symptoms begin to appear. No one knows the latency period for nvCJD in humans, but it is thought to be around 10 years. Because of this uncertainty, no one is sure how many people in England already have the disease but are not yet showing symptoms. The British government's chief medical officer, Professor Liam Donaldson, said December 21, 1999, "We're not going to know for several years whether the size of the epidemic will be a small one, in other words in the hundreds, or a very large one, in the hundreds of thousands." The epidemic of mad cow disease was caused by an agricultural innovation -- feeding dead cows to live cows. Cows are, by nature, vegetarians. But modern agricultural techniques changed that. Cows that died mysteriously were sent to rendering plants where they were boiled down and ground up into the consistency of brown sugar, and eventually added to cattle feed. It was later determined that mad cow disease was being transmitted through such feed, and especially through certain specific tissues -- brain, spinal cord, eyes, spleen and perhaps other nerve tissues. Ten new cases of nvCJD were reported in England in 1999, bringing the total to 48. It has been more than 10 years since government authorities banned the use of the particular parts of cows thought to transmit mad cow disease. The appearance of new cases of nvCJD in 1999 implies either that the latency period for the disease is longer than 10 years, or that infected meat was not effectively eliminated from the food chain when government authorities said it was, or both. The SUNDAY TIMES of London reported in late December that some meat banned for human consumption is still being marketed in England. After the mad cow scandal erupted, the British government attempted to eradicate the disease by requiring that all cows older than 30 months be slaughtered. As a result, by last September more than 2.5 million British cows had been killed. But the TIMES reported that British investigators have documented at least 50 cases of farmers and cattle dealers using bogus identity documents to falsify the ages of cows in order to sell them for human consumption. Furthermore, the Agriculture Ministry acknowledged that as many as 90,000 cattle could not be accounted for. About 1600 new cases of mad cow disease are still being reported each year in England. In December, French health authorities announced finding a second case of nvCJD, a 36-year-old woman in Paris. France has continued to refuse to import British beef, even though the European Union on August 1, 1999, formally declared British beef as safe as any in the European Union. The European Union said in December it will take France to the European Court of Justice to force it to import British beef. Germany is also refusing to import British beef. The U.S. government says mad cow disease has never been observed in any U.S. cows. However, a closely-related TSE disease, called chronic wasting disease (CWD), has been increasing for almost 20 years among wild deer and elk in northern Colorado and southern Wyoming. Since 1981, CWD has been spreading slowly among wild deer and elk herds in the Rocky Mountains and now afflicts between 4% and 8% of 62,000 deer in the region between Fort Collins, Colorado and Cheyenne, Wyoming. During 1999, CWD erupted among a herd of elk on the David Kesler Game Farm near Philipsburg, Montana, which raised elk commercially. A few of Mr. Kesler's elk had been shipped to Oklahoma and Idaho, and perhaps elsewhere, and CWD was discovered in some of those animals, too. In early December, Montana health authorities slaughtered 81 elk on Mr. Kesler's farm. They initially announced plans to incinerate the carcasses, but later decided that incineration would be too expensive. The animals were finally buried at the High Plains Sanitary Landfill north of Great Falls. Equipment used to feed, water and care for the animals was also buried in the landfill. Montana authorities announced that the fenceline at the elk farm would be decontaminated, but they did not say what procedure they would use. Nor did they announce what would become of Mr. Kesler's contaminated land. The disease agent that causes CWD -- a prion protein -- is very hardy and resists destruction by traditional sterilization techniques like alcohol and heat. The diseased elk carcasses in the High Plains landfill have been buried under a mound of garbage but will still be accessible to rainwater and perhaps to scavenging animals. In northeastern Colorado and southeastern Wyoming, state officials are urging hunters to protect themselves when dressing wild deer and elk they have shot. Hunters should wear rubber gloves, minimize contact with brain and spinal cord tissues, discard the brain, spinal cord, eyes, spleen and lymph nodes and definitely not eat them. There is no evidence that CWD can cross over from deer and elk to humans, but there was no firm evidence that mad cow disease could afflict humans until 1999, so wildlife officials in the Rocky Mountain states say caution is warranted. Writing in the BOSTON GLOBE, Terry J. Allen reported in late 1999 that, since 1996, Creutzfeld-Jakob disease has been identified in 3 Americans younger than age 30.[3] All three are known to have hunted extensively or eaten venison. There is no evidence that CWD disease has jumped from deer or elk to humans, but the appearance of this extremely-rare disease in young people was the first evidence of a problem in England, so health authorities in the U.S. say they are aggressively investigating all the possibilities. A statistician at the federal Centers for Disease Control (CDC) in Atlanta told Terry Allen that, if one more case of CJD had surfaced in a person younger than 30 in the U.S., it "might tip the balance," meaning it might convince authorities that something truly unusual was occurring. Dr. Michael Hansen of Consumer's Union says, "Given how rare the disease is in young people and how difficult it is to make a diagnosis, the possibility that some cases go undetected cannot be ruled out."[3] Indeed, of the 3 cases detected in the U.S. since 1996, one nearly went undetected. Last year in Utah, Doug McEwan, 28, began to show an array of mysterious symptoms: loss of memory, loss of motor control, mood swings, and disorientation. His wife, Tracey, says his doctors conducted hundreds of tests but could not diagnose his disease. She happened to see a TV program on mad cow disease and she insisted that Doug's doctors must test for CJD. A brain biopsy confirmed the diagnosis. One of the three young CJD victims had eaten deer shot near Rangely, Maine, so last November federal officials took samples of brains from 299 deer shot in western Maine. Authorities said at the time they were quite sure Maine deer are not harboring CWD. So far, test results have not been released. Federal authorities have quarantined two herds of sheep in Vermont because they say the sheep may have been given feed that contained parts of animals afflicted by mad cow disease. The sheep had been imported into Vermont from Belgium and the Netherlands, where they may have been fed improperly. A similar herd of sheep in New York state was recently purchased by the federal government and slaughtered.[4] Meanwhile, a 68-year-old Indiana man with a fondness for beef-brain sandwiches died of CJD last summer. Beef-brain sandwiches are a local delicacy in Indiana, introduced years ago by German immigrants. The EVANSVILLE (INDIANA) COURIER reported that John Hiedingsfelder, a forensic pathologist in Evansville, said he had seen three cases of CJD in the past year. No connection to mad cow disease has been established in the Indiana cases. Roberta Heiman, a staff writer for the EVANSVILLE (INDIANA) COURIER reportedly received a warning from a cattleman's association not to publish any further articles about this subject. ============ [1] Unless a specific source is cited, information in this issue of Rachel's was taken from www.mad-cow.org, a web site maintained by Thomas Pringle of Eugene, Oregon. Sources of information are cited at www.mad-cow.org. [2] Michael R. Scott and others, "Compelling transgenic evidence for transmission of bovine spongiform encephalopathy prions in humans," PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES Vol. 96, No. 26 (December 21, 1999), pgs. 15137-15142. [3] Terry J. Allen, "Rare, Animal-Borne Disease a Medical Mystery; Officials Examine Maine Deer in Hunt for Clues," BOSTON GLOBE December 12, 1999, pg. C26. [4] Matthew Taylor, "Mad Cow Fears, Anger on Farms; Two Imported Sheep Herds Quarantined in Vermont," BOSTON GLOBE October 31, 1999, pg. F24. Descriptor terms: mad cow disease; england; france; montana; wyoming; vermont; maine; deer; elk; bse; tse; central nervous system disorders; ################################################################ NOTICE In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107 this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving it for research and educational purposes. Environmental Research Foundation provides this electronic version of RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY free of charge even though it costs the organization considerable time and money to produce it. We would like to continue to provide this service free. You could help by making a tax-deductible contribution (anything you can afford, whether $5.00 or $500.00). Please send your tax-deductible contribution to: Environmental Research Foundation, P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403-7036. Please do not send credit card information via E-mail. For further information about making tax-deductible contributions to E.R.F. by credit card please phone us toll free at 1-888-2RACHEL, or at (410) 263-1584, or fax us at (410) 263-8944. --Peter Montague, Editor ################################################################ ==================== David Robison Stellar Processes 1033 SW Yamhill Suite 405 Portland, OR 97205 (503) 827-8336 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 11:56:48 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24103 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:56:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25184; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24075 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:45:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.19.135]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.117.11); Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:51:21 +0000 Message-ID: <004a01bf668b$7ee9c4c0$87132cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: Re: GUILLERMO WAS Re: Fwd: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:50:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3292 Dear Allen - I can take a fairly neutral view on this issue, as I'm an ocean away both geographically and metaphorically: I've never met either you or Guillermo, hadn't heard of Sally Fallon and am an omnivore (if a discriminating one) who presumably gets his B12 from conventional sources. Like several others, I value Guillermo's posts but I have to say that his style is somewhat 'blunt' (as they say in Yorkshire). I can imagine that those in the target area might feel offended. I feel that all contributions to this forum - not just those by people of note or notoriety - should be treated with respect. I have disagreed strongly with some postings but wouldn't dream of dismissing them as rubbish, nor their authors as stupid. If I have the knowledge or experience to do so, I might well put my own case; then the rest of the forum can make up its own mind. As to the 'ownership' of messages - they're pretty much in the public domain once posted on BDNow!; it would be foolish for contributors to post material about which they are sensitive, or which would be embarrassing if cross-posted. Nevertheless, it is a matter of simple courtesy to ask first. On the whole, I agree with your 'rules'. Tony N-S From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 12:02:00 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24214 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:02:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26159; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:55:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from enif.involved.com (enif.involved.com [206.136.47.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25305 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:51:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from SyGate ([206.136.47.50]) by enif.involved.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61049U4500L450S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:54:26 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000124085645.0095d100@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:56:45 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: OFF: Strontium-90 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3293 Recalling our previous discussion of calcium and strontium, this article may be of interest. ================================= _____________________________________ NONPROFIT GROUP REPORTS HIGH STRONTIUM-90 LEVELS FOUND ___________________________________________ The nonprofit Radiation and Public Health Project (RPHP), based in Miami, Fla., said November 2 that an ongoing study of radiation levels in baby teeth has found high levels of strontium-90, a radioactive isotope, in the teeth of children born during the 1980s. RPHP said the results of the study are somewhat surprising. Similar levels of strontium-90 found in children's teeth in the 1950s led to a decision to end atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons, but the study indicates that the isotope is continuing to find its way into the food chain. The group said, "The higher-than-expected levels of radiation were found in 476 teeth analyzed to date, most of them from children born in the states of New York, New Jersey and Florida. Many of the areas where teeth were collected are near nuclear power plants, a known source of radioactive materials." "These early results are cause for concern," said Dr. Ernest Sternglass, Professor Emeritus of Radiological Physics at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine and co-director of the study. Sternglass played a key role, according to RPHP, in the scientific debate that led to the original banning of bomb tests in 1963. "The levels of Strontium-90 should have dropped down to near zero once humankind stopped exploding nuclear weapons in the atmosphere. Instead, the levels stayed essentially the same as during the mid-1950s bomb-test years, or in some areas they even increased." With the end of French and Chinese atmospheric bomb tests in 1980, the projected rate of decline in absorption of strontium-90 should have led to levels near zero by 1990, according to Dr. Jay M. Gould. Dr. Gould is a director of RPHP and a statistician who previously served on the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Scientific Advisory Board. "The fact that we're finding Strontium-90 at much higher levels than projected indicates that the dangers from radiation in our diet were not eliminated with the cessation of atmospheric bomb testing," Dr. Gould said. "These findings suggest that new releases of radioactive Strontium-90 have been entering the human environment during the 1980s, possibly coming from nuclear power reactors." For further information, contact Jay Gould, Ph.D., phone (212) 496-6787, or Ernest Sternglass, Ph.D., (412) 681-6251, or Jerry Brown, Ph.D., (305) 531-1445 or (305) 321-5612, all of the Radiation and Public Health Project. Information is also available through the project's Web site at http://www.radiation.org . ==================== David Robison Stellar Processes 1033 SW Yamhill Suite 405 Portland, OR 97205 (503) 827-8336 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 12:02:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24220 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:02:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26220; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:56:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26000 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:54:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca224.vthokies.net [206.153.172.224]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA30122 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:32:46 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.0.29.1.20000124115910.00a70e60@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.29 (Beta) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:01:27 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: OFF: More on Mad Cow Disease In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000124083200.0094f2d0@mail.teleport.com> References: <67.df0e9a.25ba10d6@aol.com> <67.df0e9a.25ba10d6@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3294 Thanks, Dave, for continuing to post these helpful summaries from Rachel's. BTW, what sort of "Stellar Processes" are you involved in? Best wishes, Malcolm From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 12:40:40 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26554 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:40:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01336; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:34:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00694 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:30:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-225.s225.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.225] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12CnPP-00026q-00; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:36:11 -0500 Message-ID: <388C8DE0.8054FC2B@erols.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:37:36 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "BD Now! Listserve" Subject: Faeries Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3295 Rex: Thanks for that poem on faeries! I sent your post to a hiking friend - we often look for sprites (or, rather, feel for them) as we stroll in the Great Outside. (On one occasion, we felt the great god Pan, hiding in the shadows of the rocks.) Here is his response: "Thanks for the poem on fairies. It's what I've believed all along. The health of the forest and all the natural world depends on these spiritual beings but they can be driven away (perhaps even destroyed) by the havoc we wreak on the environment. We fail to realize that even the lowliest plant exercises consciousness and we need to retune ourselves to this consciousness (as all primitive peoples had). For we not only destroy our bodies but our minds as well by dwelling in this artificial (i.e., antinatural) world. And the fairies are the spiritual evocation of that consciousness." - Tom Nicotera Thanks, again! Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 13:00:09 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28693 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 13:00:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03939; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:54:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net (spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net [207.108.48.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03012 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:49:25 -0500 (EST) From: d2allen@uswest.net Received: (qmail 9953 invoked by alias); 24 Jan 2000 17:54:30 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-bdnow@envirolink.org@fixme Received: (qmail 8458 invoked by uid 0); 24 Jan 2000 17:53:24 -0000 Received: from dialuph123.spkn.uswest.net (HELO pop.spkn.uswest.net) (63.224.208.123) by spknpop1.spkn.uswest.net with SMTP; 24 Jan 2000 17:53:24 -0000 Message-ID: <388C8EE6.812F30F7@pop.spkn.uswest.net> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:41:58 -0800 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {U S WEST.net} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: GUILLERMO WAS Re: Fwd: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 References: <015301bf6686$4d9192e0$7d1dd2d8@windows98> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3296 Hello all, I agree with some of the things written by Frank Teuton and feel the desire to add some additional thoughts. I am going to chop up this last post and hope you all can tell who has written what. I will preface my comments with my initial (D). I also see that there is a very real problem with her (i.e., Sally Fallon's) choice of language in > describing Dr Campbell, which would be categorized in those old debates of > mine as "proof" that eating meat made one "violent and aggressive towards > others". > > > >Colin Campbell is a complete fool who makes claims for his China study > that > >>are not true, and who is advocating a vegan death diet for growing > >>children. > >> > >>Sally Fallon > > Someone who says such a thing should know it will stir up controversy and > should expect to be confronted on it, and should have all her arguments > lined up and her references ready to go, IMHO. All the more so because she > has the book under her belt. > D: I agree with this last statement. Insofar as my spiritual sensibilities are > attracted to BD, I was educated as a scientist. When I'm actively learning > about something, I often require the facts behind other people's analysis. A > good teacher has the patience and responsibility to provide additional facts > and resources to back up their statements. Of course, there are some teachers > who have much to offer - but they are tricky or tempermental. > I also want to add that the BD ideas are themselves inherently controversial > to the average person. One should expect seekers to find them, at least, > challenging. D: Ditto; and further suggest that tricky and temperamental teachers are not a good choice for new students. But as noted above, lack of interpersonal skills is often compensated for by something else of great value. A truth that should not be lost to advanced students. Finally, I wish to express a heartfelt thanks to Allen Balliet for volunteering his time to organize and run this list serve. Having been a community and environmental activist for many years and President of the newly formed Spokane Tilth for the past year, I have witnessed and experienced a terrible disease in volunteerism known as "burnout". Burnout has many causes, but I think the main cause is lack of organizational structure. And yet, can there be a paradigm shift within an organizational structure? I don't think so. There are many pitfalls to doing something new, especially when you involve a diverse and lively group of people. I've heard this characterized as "effervescence". And of course, this is an entirely new medium of communication. I personally make the effort to understand and tolerate so-called "mistakes" made by volunteer leaders (within reason of course), because it is they who are out if front, taking all the risk. Thank you again Allen and take care. Deidre From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 13:15:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01819 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 13:15:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06927; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 13:08:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06505 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 13:05:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca85.vthokies.net [206.153.172.85]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05350 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:42:58 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.0.29.1.20000124123112.00a7c780@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.29 (Beta) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 13:11:34 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: OFF: Strontium-90 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000124085645.0095d100@mail.teleport.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3297 I don't want to divert attention from the existence and potential danger of current nuclear power plants, but I wonder what happened to all that strontium-90 from the 1950's. Could the strontium-90 absorbed by female children in the 1950's have been remobilized from their bones when they became pregnant as adults in the 1980's? I believe the half-life for strontium-90 is about 29 years. Offsetting the half-life, however, there might also be some kind of selective bioconcentration process going on, which might bring the actual radiation levels back up again, albeit in a smaller area (namely, the baby teeth of the 1980's children). For all the lurking nutritionists on the list, is calcium normally transferred from a mother's bones to her fetus, or, if the diet is adequate, does the fetus get its calcium directly from the mother's dietary calcium? Malcolm At 08:56 AM 1/24/00 -0800, you wrote: >Recalling our previous discussion of calcium and strontium, this article >may be of interest. >================================= > >_____________________________________ > >NONPROFIT GROUP REPORTS HIGH >STRONTIUM-90 LEVELS FOUND >___________________________________________ > > The nonprofit Radiation and Public Health Project (RPHP), based in >Miami, Fla., said November 2 that an ongoing study of radiation levels in >baby teeth has found high levels of strontium-90, a radioactive isotope, in >the teeth of children born during the 1980s. > > RPHP said the results of the study are somewhat surprising. >Similar levels of strontium-90 found in children's teeth in the 1950s led >to a decision to end atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons, but the study >indicates that the isotope is continuing to find its way into the food >chain. The group said, "The higher-than-expected levels of radiation were >found in 476 teeth analyzed to date, most of them from children born in the >states of New York, New Jersey and Florida. Many of the areas where teeth >were collected are near nuclear power plants, a known source of radioactive >materials." > > "These early results are cause for concern," said Dr. Ernest >Sternglass, Professor Emeritus of Radiological Physics at the University of >Pittsburgh School of Medicine and co-director of the study. Sternglass >played a key role, according to RPHP, in the scientific debate that led to >the original banning of bomb tests in 1963. "The levels of Strontium-90 >should have dropped down to near zero once humankind stopped exploding >nuclear weapons in the atmosphere. Instead, the levels stayed essentially >the same as during the mid-1950s bomb-test years, or in some areas they >even increased." > > With the end of French and Chinese atmospheric bomb tests in 1980, >the projected rate of decline in absorption of strontium-90 should have led >to levels near zero by 1990, according to Dr. Jay M. Gould. Dr. Gould is a >director of RPHP and a statistician who previously served on the U.S. >Environmental Protection Agency Scientific Advisory Board. > > "The fact that we're finding Strontium-90 at much higher levels >than projected indicates that the dangers from radiation in our diet were >not eliminated with the cessation of atmospheric bomb testing," Dr. Gould >said. "These findings suggest that new releases of radioactive >Strontium-90 have been entering the human environment during the 1980s, >possibly coming from nuclear power reactors." > > For further information, contact Jay Gould, Ph.D., phone (212) >496-6787, or Ernest Sternglass, Ph.D., (412) 681-6251, or Jerry Brown, >Ph.D., (305) 531-1445 or (305) 321-5612, all of the Radiation and Public >Health Project. Information is also available through the project's Web >site at http://www.radiation.org . > > > >==================== >David Robison >Stellar Processes >1033 SW Yamhill Suite 405 >Portland, OR 97205 >(503) 827-8336 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 16:00:24 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05804 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:00:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28247; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:54:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from wave.sheridan.wy.us (root@wave.sheridan.wy.us [206.54.116.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28095 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:53:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from dbrown (vcn12.usrnet-1.sher.wy.vcn.com [209.193.70.117]) by wave.sheridan.wy.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA17360 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 13:55:34 -0700 Message-ID: <019f01bf66b6$e16a8a00$9d46c1d1@dbrown.wavecom.net> From: "Audrey Malan" To: "biodynamic list serve" Subject: Southern SAWG Conference Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:03:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_019C_01BF6673.D19C0B00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3298 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_019C_01BF6673.D19C0B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Hugh, how was the Southern SAWG Conference? - Audrey ------=_NextPart_000_019C_01BF6673.D19C0B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Hugh, how was the Southern SAWG Conference? - = Audrey
------=_NextPart_000_019C_01BF6673.D19C0B00-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 20:12:18 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11340 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:12:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA26389; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:06:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA26138 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:02:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.99] (pm3shep2-163-90.intrepid.net [209.190.163.90]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA08025 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:07:54 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:18:18 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Fwd: SOY was Re: -Reply Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3299 >Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:57:09 -0500 >From: Ted Rogers >To: igg@igg.com >Subject: SOY was Re: -Reply >Allan, > >Please post. > >To clarify: my thinking (and it should not be assumed that this is in some >way USDA thinking, because there is simply no data on this, as there is >virtually no verifiable data on organic production in the U.S.) is that the >soy products out there do not reflect in price the use of very expensive >organic beans (have not checked the current price but from 96-98 the >prices were in the 18-20+ bushel range; how does the price of my fony >bologna, tofu, and other tofu products remain so low? My conjecture is >that the beans are either conventional, paper organic or a blend. >Therefore I would assume that these products would contain GMO >beans in a % comparable to a conventional sample or a blended sample. >USDA has no data on this, this is my own assumption, I also know that >some retailers have tried to find out what was going on and the >information is simply unavailable... > >Allan, you well know how I feel about the delusional nature of organic >claims and even certification. I do not think that most of the members of >this list are interested in a discussion of my opinions no matter how >informed those opinions are. I have to accept the fact that I do not have >any more data to backup my opinions than the organic purist who thinks >that the organic claim or a certification claim tells them anything about the >purity, health or safety of the products that are currently sold under such >banners. My current tendency is to embrace the Hugh L. approach: >"here taste this" as the only currently dependable method of verifying a >quality claim... > >Best, > >Ted -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 20:46:15 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11849 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:46:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA29352; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:39:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from earth.ncn.net (ncn.net [199.120.120.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29165 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:37:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([206.72.53.39]) by earth.ncn.net (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA08183 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:31:52 -0600 Message-ID: <000101bf66d5$85af7940$273548ce@default> From: "Mike or Mona Majorowicz" To: References: <388B07F3.43427AA4@erols.com><388B2A28.26DA7C6F@pop.spkn.uswest.net><388B4C20.5207@globalnet.co.uk><001b01bf6667$f5a418a0$2e3548ce@default> Subject: Re: SOY was Re: Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:47:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3300 Allan- My general impression after talking to several buyers last year is that the two biggest reasons for the price drop were: #1. When the japanese economy went to pieces they stopped buying, and the demand for beans dissapeared because the Japanese were the major buyers. #2. A glut of organic beans occured in the US because there was an uncommonly large number of acres that came out of the USDA Conservation Reserve Program (CRP). Many of the acres, that had been laying fallow in CRP, were used to produce organic beans by new organic farmers. I don't remember much talk about competition from other countries. I'm not claiming that there isn't any corruption in the organic industry. I'm saying that you can't assume corruption based on the market price for beans. Mike Majorowicz ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 6:59 AM Subject: Re: SOY was Re: > >Allan- > > > >I'm not sure how current your information is on the organic soy market. > >Last year the price of organic beans paid to farmers plummeted to about 50% > >of it's previous value. > > > >Mike Majorowicz > > > > Mike - I think this is consistent with my point: a large supply of > 'organic' soy beans coming in from China would cause this effect, > would it not? > > -Allan > -- > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 21:24:26 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12923 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:24:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA02978; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:18:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02442 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:13:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.118] (r-66.8.alltel.net [166.102.66.8]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id UAA11365 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:18:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000124085645.0095d100@mail.teleport.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:00:13 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: OFF: Strontium-90 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3301 > > "The fact that we're finding Strontium-90 at much higher levels >than projected indicates that the dangers from radiation in our diet were >not eliminated with the cessation of atmospheric bomb testing," Dr. Gould >said. "These findings suggest that new releases of radioactive >Strontium-90 have been entering the human environment during the 1980s, >possibly coming from nuclear power reactors." Dear Dave, BD List, I love the conclusions sometimes arrived at from facts. "These findings suggest that new releases of radioactive Strontium-90 have been entering the human environment during the 1980s, possibly coming from nuclear power "reactors." What science! The fact is strontium-90 has shown up in childrens' teeth from locations more or less close to nuclear power plants. We do know the nuclear plants contain some very concentrated radioactive materials. We do know they are unable to contain all the radiation, the radioactivity, the radioactive RAYS from this material. However, they have been built to contain the radioactive MATERIALS, and enough engineering and effort has gone into this containment that there is at least some assurance they contain all but a vanishingly small amount of these materials. I have reason to know this as my brother was a nuclear engineer who built a number of reactors, and even though he quit in protest of the inadequate measures taken in the construction of these reactors, according to the existing theories and most of the known facts these plants are not supposed to release any materials even though it is known they cannot contain all their radiations. This would make what happens to these radiations one of the obvious places to go looking for the cause of strontium-90 levels in teeth. Sadly, existing assumptions in the American scientific community stand in the way of such investigations. Though acceptance of the validity of biological transmutation is fairly widespread in Europe, this has made little headway in America. Likewise the notion that radioactivity (fallen life ether) can derange atomic nuclei in the environment, particularly atomic nuclei in living organisms, is viewed as prima facie absurd and American nuclear physicists won't take a look or do any experiments in this area. The existing assumptions about the half-lives of radioactive isotopes are based on experiments in sterile laboratories--hardly the place to investigate what happens to these isotopes in living systems. The observations of modern science are wonderful, but the theorizing about these observations has a history of being junk and to this day remains junk even though it goes through one after another revision. If a 19th century physicist was told that solid matter was practically all empty space he would have laughed uproariously and disregarded this notion completely. Today this is accepted as observable fact. The physicist of today laughs uproariously at the notion that organized, coherent formative forces--life forces--can affect or be affected by radioactive isotopes. This is despite the oranur experiments by Wilhelm Reich in the early fifties. Reich didn't have his degree in physics and wasn't one of the "good-ole-boy" club so he was ignored. Even moreso Rudolf Steiner was ignored. So life goes. I just thought I'd poke a few holes in the processes of blatant assumption Dave Robison's post brings to light. Best, Hugh Lovel Blairsville, Georgia From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 24 21:24:36 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12935 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:24:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA03035; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:18:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02455 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:13:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.118] (r-66.8.alltel.net [166.102.66.8]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id UAA11667 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:18:57 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <019f01bf66b6$e16a8a00$9d46c1d1@dbrown.wavecom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:27:29 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Southern SAWG Conference Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3302 > Hi Hugh, how was the Southern SAWG Conference? - Audrey Southern SAWG was pretty good. Over 600 people attended. Jekyl Island is a nice place for this thing. One thing I was VERY glad to see was the high percentage of farmers of African American heritage. I've been wondering where these folks were as I see so few at ACRES and BD conferences. The diversity was great. Our Union Agricultural Institute booth was one of the busiest ones at the trade show. Best, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 25 00:23:31 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17238 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 00:23:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA17418; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 00:17:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA17003 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 00:14:09 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp395.cy-net.net [208.21.195.204]) by mail.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16462 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:19:53 -0600 Message-Id: <200001250519.XAA16462@mail.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:19:47 -0600 Subject: Ted's opinions Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3303 I think a lot of folk on list would be interested in Ted's opinions on this topic. I know I've dropped out of 'organic certification' programs at present, I rely on the negatives: No chemicals, No drugs.. and I pretty much can sell my produce locally. MARTHA'S SOAPBOX:::: The thing that will ALWAYS gall me, is that organic, (and /or) biodynamic growers have something they have to PROVE, yet, those folk who add chemicals to soil and crops don't have to show anything they've done. As long as we accept this as right, we're going to be on the losing end. Should I capitalize that whole last sentence? WAKE UP!! >Allan, you well know how I feel about the delusional nature of organic >claims and even certification. I do not think that most of the members of >this list are interested in a discussion of my opinions no matter how >informed those opinions are. Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 25 11:10:25 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25592 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:10:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26749; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26355 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:01:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (sdn-ar-003azphoeP257.dialsprint.net [206.133.140.147]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA15665 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:07:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <388DCC63.1D4065F9@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:16:35 -0700 From: Jim and Jenni Muir X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {TLC;RETAIL} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: WAS Comments From Demeter, Changed To: Developing the abilities of the mind's eye References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3304 Hi Hugh, I am very interested in hearing more of what you have to say regarding developing the abilities of the mind's eye. I too, had biofeedback training, along with relaxation techniques to deal with pain that resulted from an auto accident. It became obvious to me at some point along the way, that something unusual was occurring, besides pain control. I was receiving impressions of things occurring, without using my "normal" faculties of perception, or use of my hearing, sight, touch, etc. I was also receiving impressions of "energies" that the average individual was unable to sense, see or hear. It was as if my powers of intuition were thrown into "high gear", through the quieting of the mind. Can you elaborate more on this topic? You have wonderful experience, as well as professional knowledge of the effects on quieting the mind, e.g. biofeedback. I feel this discussion is important to Biodynamics, because we all work with these forces and energies, and many folks are unable to sense, feel, or see the energies they work with. My husband and I are Biodynamic gardeners, who have not been as active the past few years, when I became very ill. I continue to enjoy your posts, and have great admiration for your many contributions to Biodynamics. Jenni Muir Hugh Lovel wrote: > I assure you I can see these energies in my mind's eye when I spray preps. > I think almost anyone would see these patterns if they were attuned > sufficiently to noticing them. I had a LOT of biofeedback training, and I > find this rather easy. But if you seek dilligently to develop this ability > I feel confident you will find a way to achieve that goal, whether it is > prayer, meditation, chanting Sanskrit mantras, dowsing, or whatever. Our > nervous system IS an antenna that is attuned to and receives these > impressions and a lot more besides. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 25 11:24:09 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25947 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:24:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28350; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:18:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from enif.involved.com (enif.involved.com [206.136.47.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28297 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:17:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from SyGate ([206.136.47.50]) by enif.involved.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61049U4500L450S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:20:40 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000125082257.0094ae60@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:22:57 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Re: OFF: Strontium-90 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000124085645.0095d100@mail.teleport.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3305 Glad to see the interest in this post. There are other hypotheses to consider as well. What if modern diets were deficient in calcium or somehow block the assimilation of calcium? Would the body then tend to pick up more strontium, a sort of biological concentration? Or has the source of dietary calcium changed to include more bio-concentrated sources? It is interesting to note that nowdays many processed foods claim to be "calcium enriched". Enriched how? By adding milk solids? Or (heaven forbid) bone meal? ==================== David Robison Stellar Processes 1033 SW Yamhill Suite 405 Portland, OR 97205 (503) 827-8336 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 25 11:43:52 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26345 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:43:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00589; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:37:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00340 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:36:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-164-223-18.s18.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.223.18] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12D91t-0001Zy-00; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:41:21 -0500 Message-ID: <388DD286.5CEADADB@erols.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:42:46 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Sally References: <388B1CB0.44186DCD@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3306 Allan: Can you give me a link through BD Now to purchase Sally Fallon's book, Nourishing Traditions? Also - is there a way to credit my Amazon purchases to you without troubling you each time to forward a URL? There must be a way to save time with this! TIA, Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 25 11:48:23 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26514 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:48:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01086; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00740 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:39:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-164-223-18.s18.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.223.18] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12D94t-0002C2-00; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:44:28 -0500 Message-ID: <388DD341.D09FB4D0@erols.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:45:53 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Sally References: <388B1CB0.44186DCD@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3307 BTW - I have now tried lacto-fermentation (a couple of days after Sally's lecture at the BD Conf., Allan, Guillermo and I went up to Rodale, where, inspired by what I heard, I purchased a book on "old country" preservation methods). Lacto-fermentation works - and it works well! I preserved some daikon radish in salt - and have been eating them for three months. Wow! The jars did have to be sterilized - accomplished by a simple, boiling water bath - but I didn't have to "can" them - so the radish isn't cooked at really high temperatures (thus preserving the nutrients). Yum! Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 25 12:02:55 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27145 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:02:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02509; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02179 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:53:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.14.184]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:58:34 +0000 Message-ID: <004d01bf6755$ba22ff00$b80e2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: Re: Proposed e-mail changes Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:36:47 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3308 Hugh - I couldn't resist letting my transatlantic correspondents know how my heart bleeds for them, that they might have to pay telephone charges for their e-mails. We in Britain have always had to do so: a telephone call is a telephone call, whether to your ISP or your Auntie Ada. Nevertheless, we pay only for a local call; surely your telephone company couldn't charge you long-distance rate for a long-distance e-mail, as most of the distance is the business of your ISP ? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 25 12:03:01 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27154 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:03:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02552; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02182 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:53:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.14.184]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:58:36 +0000 Message-ID: <004e01bf6755$bb0c74a0$b80e2cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: Re: OFF: Strontium-90 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:47:20 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3309 Dear Hugh - while we're on OFF subjects, I used to work in the laboratory of a factory which produced peat soaked in molasses as an animal-feed supplement (handier than having to mix in the liquid at the point of use). The original method was primitive, so the company invested in a piece of machinery which tumbled the peat and molasses together in a big, partially evacuated drum. I recognised the suppliers as being the leading firm constructing nuclear power plants in Britain in those days. When all the components arrived and the firm's engineers began assembling them, it was found that few fitted together; even the holes for bolts failed to match and most had to be returned for re-working. I began to wonder about their power-plants... Hope your brother was a better engineer than those! Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 25 12:12:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27351 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:12:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03650; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:06:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03222 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:02:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-164-223-18.s18.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.223.18] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12D9Rf-0007Sg-00; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:08:00 -0500 Message-ID: <388DD8C5.578CC3A5@erols.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:09:25 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: GUILLERMO WAS Re: Fwd: Re: Sally Fallon on B12 References: <015301bf6686$4d9192e0$7d1dd2d8@windows98> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3310 Frank: I heard of a man down here - on Gary Nall's show, about four or five years ago - who lived mostly on sunlight. When it was cloudy for an extended period, he drank fruit juice. But other than that, he said the sun provided all that he needed! Thought he was a plant, I suppose - R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 25 12:27:16 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28026 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:27:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05755; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:21:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from enif.involved.com ([206.136.47.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05119 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from SyGate ([206.136.47.50]) by enif.involved.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61049U4500L450S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:20:06 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000125092223.009aa140@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: drobison@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:22:23 -0800 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Dave Robison Subject: Re: Comments From Demeter In-Reply-To: References: <4.ad918c.25bbf0ac@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3311 Allan or Hugh-- Since JPI isnt on this list, can you find out if this video is available? >Lee McWhorter of the Josephine Porter Institute in Woolwine, VA >has a video of >Bob's presentation last Labor Day. ==================== David Robison Stellar Processes 1033 SW Yamhill Suite 405 Portland, OR 97205 (503) 827-8336 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 25 12:27:21 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28037 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:27:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05799; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:21:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05574 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:19:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-164-223-18.s18.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.223.18] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12D9iN-0004Mp-00; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:25:16 -0500 Message-ID: <388DDCD1.60D59822@erols.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:26:41 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Southern SAWG Conference References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3312 Hey, Hugh - I just came up with a great idea! How about if we start a sister group (well, actually a brother group) headed by me (a known African-American)? I'd call it, "Brothas for Bio-Dynamics!" We do, as it were, some inner-city BD spade work. He, he! R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 25 12:32:02 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28116 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:32:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06516; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:25:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05929 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:22:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.181] (pm3shep4-163-181.intrepid.net [209.190.163.181]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA23887 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:27:44 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <388DD286.5CEADADB@erols.com> References: <388B1CB0.44186DCD@erols.com> <388DD286.5CEADADB@erols.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:29:31 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Sally Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3313 Robert - You should be able to order that directly from the BD Now! page http://www.igg.com/bdnow by clicking on the 'READ Biodynamics' button and looking for the Nourishing Traditions icon. Thanks for your support, Robert, -Allan >Allan: > >Can you give me a link through BD Now to purchase Sally Fallon's book, >Nourishing Traditions? > >Also - is there a way to credit my Amazon purchases to you without >troubling you each time to forward a URL? There must be a way to save >time with this! > >TIA, > >Robert. -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 25 12:56:24 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28580 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:56:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10616; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:50:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09857 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:45:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.181] (pm3shep4-163-181.intrepid.net [209.190.163.181]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA30697 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:51:41 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <388DDCD1.60D59822@erols.com> References: <388DDCD1.60D59822@erols.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:56:20 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Southern SAWG Conference Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3314 >Hey, Hugh - I just came up with a great idea! > >How about if we start a sister group (well, actually a brother group) >headed by me (a known African-American)? > >I'd call it, "Brothas for Bio-Dynamics!" We do, as it were, some >inner-city BD spade work. > >He, he! > >R. Man, Robert, if LeRoi heard you talk that way... :-) -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 25 12:56:51 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28598 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10684; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:50:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10215 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:47:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.181] (pm3shep4-163-181.intrepid.net [209.190.163.181]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA31234 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:53:28 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000125092223.009aa140@mail.teleport.com> References: <4.ad918c.25bbf0ac@aol.com> <3.0.6.32.20000125092223.009aa140@mail.teleport.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:58:01 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Comments From Demeter Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3315 Dave - I love you,fella, but I make a pretty poor Jimmy Olsen: Try this The Josephine Porter Institute of Applied Biodynamics Post Office Box 133 Woolwine, Virginia 24185, U.S.A. Phone/Fax 1-540-530-2463 web: http://www.igg.com/bdnow/jpi (Or, ask Malcolm :-) -Allan >Allan or Hugh-- > >Since JPI isnt on this list, can you find out if this video is available? > > > >>Lee McWhorter of the Josephine Porter Institute in Woolwine, VA >>has a video of >>Bob's presentation last Labor Day. > > >==================== >David Robison >Stellar Processes >1033 SW Yamhill Suite 405 >Portland, OR 97205 >(503) 827-8336 -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Jan 25 13:35:44 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29273 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:35:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15472; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:29:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15120 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:26:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216-164-223-18.s18.tnt2.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.223.18] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12DAkS-0003Kb-00; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:31:28 -0500 Message-ID: <388DEC56.FBCE8EA0@erols.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:32:54 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Southern SAWG Conference References: <388DDCD1.60D59822@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3316 LeRoi HAS heard me talk that way! You should have seen his eyes when he bit into one of my peppers - yow!!! R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 26 16:44:39 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21504 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:44:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA16879; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:38:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from fep9.mail.ozemail.net (fep9.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.103]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16490 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:34:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (slmlb5p30.ozemail.com.au [210.84.130.30]) by fep9.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA20823 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:40:32 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <006501bf68aa$14fcbce0$1e8254d2@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: References: <388DCC63.1D4065F9@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: WAS Comments From Demeter, Changed To: Developing the abilities of the mind's eye Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:37:05 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3317 Dear Jenni Having just reviewed (repeated) the 'Silva' method this past weekend I can really recommend it for developing your intuition etc. check out their website - email me privately if you wish. http://www.silvamethod.com/ Warm regards Gwenda ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Jenni Muir To: Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2000 3:16 Subject: Re: WAS Comments From Demeter, Changed To: Developing the abilities of the mind's eye From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 26 16:48:45 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21504 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:44:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA16879; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:38:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from fep9.mail.ozemail.net (fep9.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.103]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16490 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:34:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (slmlb5p30.ozemail.com.au [210.84.130.30]) by fep9.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA20823 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:40:32 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <006501bf68aa$14fcbce0$1e8254d2@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: References: <388DCC63.1D4065F9@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: WAS Comments From Demeter, Changed To: Developing the abilities of the mind's eye Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:37:05 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3318 Dear Jenni Having just reviewed (repeated) the 'Silva' method this past weekend I can really recommend it for developing your intuition etc. check out their website - email me privately if you wish. http://www.silvamethod.com/ Warm regards Gwenda ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Jenni Muir To: Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2000 3:16 Subject: Re: WAS Comments From Demeter, Changed To: Developing the abilities of the mind's eye From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 26 20:06:53 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA24869 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:06:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA09417; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:00:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09283 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 19:59:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.138] (pm3shep3-163-138.intrepid.net [209.190.163.138]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA19998 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:04:45 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <006501bf68aa$14fcbce0$1e8254d2@default> References: <388DCC63.1D4065F9@earthlink.net> <006501bf68aa$14fcbce0$1e8254d2@default> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:07:48 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Silva Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3319 Gwenda - I heard that this was a great way to bake craft-level gourmet breads!! :-) If you want to talk about Silva here or other 'enhancements' to psychic viewing, please do! Thanks so much, -Allan >Dear Jenni > >Having just reviewed (repeated) the 'Silva' method this past weekend I can >really recommend it for developing your intuition etc. check out their >website - email me privately if you wish. >http://www.silvamethod.com/ > >Warm regards Gwenda > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Jim and Jenni Muir >To: >Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2000 3:16 >Subject: Re: WAS Comments From Demeter, Changed To: Developing the abilities >of the mind's eye -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Jan 26 21:57:27 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26573 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:57:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19478; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:50:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA19254 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:48:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([205.209.27.77]) by river.netrover.com (8.9.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA19115 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:54:06 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-From: villager@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: From: "manfred palmer" To: "bdnow" Subject: roundup info Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:55:54 -0500 Message-ID: <01bf6872$07823f00$4b1bd1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF6848.1EAC3700" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3320 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF6848.1EAC3700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends:=20 I had flagged a site which contained pages of info on = roundup/glyphosate, and the various reasons that it shouldnt be used, = what the effects are, shortterm and longterm. That site does not exist anymore, so i need the documents. I'm trying to appeal to my neighbors, who have not used any chemicals = for thirty years, and now because of a "weed problem", shortage of = workers, and a cropping/lease arrangement with a conventional = farmer...... want to use roundup at his suggestion to "eradicate" the = increasing thistle patches, and other types. I want to appeal to their remnant integrity with some good convincing = documentation so that the land is spared this affront in the spring. = It's also right downwind of my leased 8 acre garden. Can someone direct = me to a relevant website, or synopsise the chem/bio reasons for not = using it.?? thanx,........ manfred palmer ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF6848.1EAC3700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Friends:
I had flagged a site which contained pages of = info on=20 roundup/glyphosate, and the various reasons that it shouldnt be used, = what the=20 effects are, shortterm and longterm.
That site does not exist anymore, so i need the documents.
I'm trying to appeal to my neighbors, who = have not used=20 any chemicals for thirty years, and now because of a "weed = problem",=20 shortage of workers, and a cropping/lease arrangement with a = conventional=20 farmer...... want to use roundup at his suggestion to = "eradicate" the=20 increasing thistle patches, and other types.
I want to appeal to their remnant integrity = with some=20 good convincing documentation so that the land is spared this affront in = the=20 spring.  It's also right downwind of my leased 8 acre garden. Can = someone=20 direct me to a relevant website, or synopsise the chem/bio reasons for = not using=20 it.?? thanx,........ manfred palmer
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF6848.1EAC3700-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 05:58:37 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA01506 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 05:58:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA21746; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 05:52:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [154.11.89.179]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA21566 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 05:49:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 23926 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2000 10:55:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.28.132) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 27 Jan 2000 10:55:20 -0000 Message-ID: <03ad01bf68b3$bd1703a0$7d1dd2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Fw: RoundUp Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 05:46:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3321 For Manfred -----Original Message----- From: Frank Teuton To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 12:12 PM Subject: Re: RoundUp >Hi Murray, here's a post from SANET, just in: > > >Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:58:33 EDT >From: Cntraryfmr@aol.com >Subject: Roundup "the environmentally friendly herbicide" > >Subject: Roundup and Cancer > >PRESS RELEASE - 22 JUNE - New Study Links Monsanto's Roundup to Cancer > >A recent study by eminent oncologists Dr. Lennart Hardell and Dr. Mikael >Eriksson of Sweden [1], has revealed clear links between one of the world's >biggest selling herbicide, glyphosate, to non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, a form of >cancer [2]. > >In the study published in the 15 March 1999 Journal of American Cancer >Society, the researchers also maintain that exposure to glyphosate 'yielded >increased risks for NHL.' They stress that with the rapidly increasing use >of glyphosate since the time the study was carried out, 'glyphosate >deserves further epidemiologic studies.' > >Glyphosate, commonly known as Roundup, is the world's most widely used >herbicide. It is estimated that for 1998, over a 112,000 tonnes of >glyphosate was used world-wide. It indiscriminately kills off a wide >variety of weeds after application and is primarily used to control annual >and perennial plants. > >71% of genetically engineered crops planted in 1998 are designed to be >resistant to herbicides such as glyphosate, marketed by Monsanto as >Roundup. Companies developing herbicide resistant crops are also increasing >their production capacity for the herbicides such as glyphosate, and also >requesting permits for higher residues of these chemicals in genetically >engineered food. For example, Monsanto have already received permits for a >threefold increase in herbicide residues on genetically engineered soybeans >in Europe and the U.S., up from 6 parts per million (PPM) to 20 PPM. > >According to Sadhbh O' Neill of Genetic Concern, 'this study reinforces >concerns by environmentalists and health professionals that far from >reducing herbicide use, glyphosate resistant crops may result in increased >residues to which we as consumers will be exposed in our food.' > >'Increased residues of glyphosate and its metabolites are already on sale >via genetically engineered soya, common in processed foods. However no >studies of the effects of GE soya sprayed with Roundup on health have been >carried out either on animals or humans to date,' she continued. > >The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) statistics from 1997 >show that expanded plantings of Roundup Ready soybeans (i.e. soybeans >genetically engineered to be tolerant to the herbicide) resulted in a 72% >increase in the use of glyphosate. According to the Pesticides Action >Network, scientists estimate that plants genetically engineered to be >herbicide resistant will actually triple the amount of herbicides used. >Farmers, knowing that their crop can tolerate or resist being killed off by >the herbicides, will tend to use them more liberally. > >O' Neill concluded: 'The EPA when authorising Monsanto's field trials for >Roundup-ready sugar beet did not consider the issue of glyphosate. They >considered this to be the remit of the Pesticides Control Service of the >Department of Agriculture. Thus nobody has included the effects of >increasing the use of glyphosate in the risk/benefit analysis carried out. >It is yet another example of how regulatory authorities supposedly >protecting public health have failed to implement the 'precautionary >principle' with respect to GMOs.' > >ENDS > >Further information: Sadhbh O' Neill at 01-4760360 or 087-2258599 or >(home) 01-6774052 >Notes > >[1] Lennart Hardell, M.D., PhD. Department of Oncology, Orebro Medical >Centre, Orebro, Sweden and Miikael Eriksson, M.D., PhD, Department of >Oncology, University Hospital, Lund, Sweden, 'A Case-Control Study of >Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma and Exposure to Pesticides', Cancer, March 15, 1999/ >Volume 85/ Number 6. > >The findings are based on a population-based case-control study conducted >in Sweden between 1987 - 1990. The necessary data was ascertained by a >series of comprehensive questionnaires and follow-up telephone interviews. >Dr. Hardell and Dr. Eriksson found that 'exposure to herbicides and >fungicides resulted in significantly increased risks for NHL'. > >[2] Lymphoma is a form of cancer that afflicts the lymphatic system. It >can occur at virtually any part of the body but the initial symptoms are >usually seen as swellings around the lymph nodes at the base of the neck. >There are basically two main kinds of lymphoma, i.e. Hodgkin's disease and >non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. > >The incidence of NHL has increased rapidly in most Western countries over >the last few decades. According to the American Cancer Society, there has >been an alarming 80% increase in incidences of NHL since the early 1970's. > >You could also go to the PANUPS site .....at http://www.panna.org and look >in the PESTIS database they have; Caroline Cox wrote a long review of the >literature some time ago, and others are adding to it, as seen above. > >HTH, > >Frank > >-----Original Message----- >From: Murray Henderson >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 10:38 AM >Subject: RoundUp > > >>I've been watching this list for some time now, and have seen several times >>the subject of the use of RoundUp. I've picked up on the fact that it is a >>bad substance, and have been persuaded that it should not be used. But I >>really don't know WHY. >> >>The reason I am asking for someone to explain to me is because my neighbour >>was using it the other day from a spray pump bottle on his lawn. I felt >>like going up to him and asking him to stop. I didn't. I have since >>realized that I wouldn't have really been able to defend my position on it >>had he asked me WHY. All I would have been able to say was "I am growing my >>vegetables within a few metres of your weed problem." >> >> >>Murray Henderson - Kitchener, Ontario, Canada >> >> > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 07:28:27 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02275 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:28:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA25901; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:22:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA25787 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:20:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-180.s180.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.180] helo=erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12DnzN-0002VV-00; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:25:29 -0500 Message-ID: <38903990.57D9FF04@erols.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:26:56 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: roundup info References: <01bf6872$07823f00$4b1bd1cd@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3322 Manfred: There was some info about roundup on SANET. You might try posting there, too. R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 07:33:02 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02348 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:33:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA26064; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:26:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA25929 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:23:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-180.s180.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.180] helo=erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12Do2k-0003F8-00; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:28:58 -0500 Message-ID: <38903A61.FF8D592F@erols.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:30:25 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "BD Now! Listserve" Subject: Roundup Kills Beneficials Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1E381E7A93DFF80E61347859" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3323 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1E381E7A93DFF80E61347859 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI R. --------------1E381E7A93DFF80E61347859 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mx01.mrf.mail.rcn.net ([207.172.4.50]) by mta2.mail.erols.net (InterMail v03.02.07.03 118-128) with ESMTP id <19991027232828.RUVI27074@mx01.mrf.mail.rcn.net> for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:28:28 -0400 Received: from manatee.envirolink.org ([208.195.208.7] helo=envirolink.org) by mx01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11gcUW-0002Qp-00 for rbfarr@erols.com; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:28:28 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA13770; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:11:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13343 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:07:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 333 (d146.infoserve.net [199.175.157.146]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA09749 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <003601bf20d1$0ea96760$929dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: Glyposate kills beneficials Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:14:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF2096.6171E2A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF2096.6171E2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Michael Roboz To: michael roboz Cc: Troy LETHBRIDGE Danyk Date: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 4:10 PM Subject: Glyposate kills beneficials=20 New Scientist >October 23, 1999 Pg. 27 > >Collateral damage ? > >A common weedkiller is under suspicion of harming beneficial insects. A >German report to the European Commission describes lab tests showing = that >glyphosate can kill parasitic wasps and lacewings. Glyphosate is one of = the >most widely used herbicides in the European Union, where it is approved >under national regulations. > >The Commission is evaluating pesticides for approval at European level, = and >the report recommends postponing approval until further studies have = been >conducted in the field. Monsanto is already marketing glyphosate in the = US >specifically for use with crops genetically modified to tolerate it. It >wants to get the same crops approved for use on European farms. The = company >argues that more appropriate tests of glyphosate, which show no = evidence of >harm, have already been submitted. For more science news see >http://www.newscientist.com > >** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this = material is >distributed for research and educational purposes only. ** > >_________________________________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign, >for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term >Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods, >500 Wilbrod Street >Ottawa, ON Canada K1N 6N2 >tel. 613-565-8517 fax. 613-565-1596 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net> ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF2096.6171E2A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Michael Roboz <mroboz@infoserve.net>
T= o:=20 michael roboz <mroboz@infoserve.net>
C= c:=20 Troy LETHBRIDGE Danyk <danyk@EM.AGR.CA>
Date: = Wednesday,=20 October 27, 1999 4:10 PM
Subject: Glyposate kills beneficials=20

New Scientist
>October 23, 1999 Pg. = 27
>
>Collateral=20 damage ?
>
>A common weedkiller is under suspicion of = harming=20 beneficial insects. A
>German report to the European Commission = describes=20 lab tests showing that
>glyphosate can kill parasitic wasps and = lacewings.=20 Glyphosate is one of the
>most widely used herbicides in the = European=20 Union, where it is approved
>under national=20 regulations.
>
>The Commission is evaluating pesticides for = approval=20 at European level, and
>the report recommends postponing approval = until=20 further studies have been
>conducted in the field. Monsanto is = already=20 marketing glyphosate in the US
>specifically for use with crops=20 genetically modified to tolerate it. It
>wants to get the same = crops=20 approved for use on European farms. The company
>argues that more=20 appropriate tests of glyphosate, which show no evidence of
>harm, = have=20 already been submitted. For more science news see
>http://www.newscientist.com
&= gt;
>**=20 NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material=20 is
>distributed for research and educational purposes only.=20 **
>
>_______________________________________________________= __
>Richard=20 Wolfson,  PhD
>Consumer Right to Know Campaign,
>for = Mandatory=20 Labelling and Long-term
>Testing of all Genetically Engineered=20 Foods,
>500 Wilbrod Street
>Ottawa, ON  Canada  = K1N=20 6N2
>tel. 613-565-8517  fax. 613-565-1596
>email:  = rwolfson@concentric.net> ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF2096.6171E2A0-- --------------1E381E7A93DFF80E61347859-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 07:33:15 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02360 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:33:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA26104; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:27:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA25997 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:25:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-180.s180.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.180] helo=erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12Do4y-0003Zd-00; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:31:16 -0500 Message-ID: <38903AEB.7C3D2CFC@erols.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:32:43 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "BD Now! Listserve" Subject: [Fwd: Roundup withdrawal] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6B75D2F6B31637F67C4F4C1B" Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3324 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6B75D2F6B31637F67C4F4C1B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit fyi R. --------------6B75D2F6B31637F67C4F4C1B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mx05.erols.com ([207.172.3.245]) by mta4.mail.erols.net (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with ESMTP id <19990410090404.CBWI14661@mx05.erols.com>; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 05:04:04 -0400 Received: from lsvmlr.uky.edu (lsvmlr.uky.edu [128.163.1.37]) by mx05.erols.com (8.8.8-970530/8.8.5/MX-980323-gjp) with ESMTP id FAA27862; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 05:04:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lsv (128.163.1.15) by lsvmlr.uky.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.8C842090@lsvmlr.uky.edu>; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 5:04:01 -0400 Received: from LSV.UKY.EDU by LSV.UKY.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 127421112 for OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 05:03:21 -0400 Received: from default ([203.96.102.37]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990410090442.YINS5596385.mta1-rme@default> for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 21:04:42 +1200 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <370EA2E5.750E@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 13:01:25 +1200 Reply-To: Organic Gardening Discussion List Sender: Organic Gardening Discussion List From: Tony & Moira Ryan Subject: Re: Roundup withdrawal To: OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU Sydney Carpenter wrote: > > Help. I've been working in the yard and garden and several times have had the urge to get my bottle of Roundup from last year and spray some nasty weeds. Like the Dallisgrass growing in my patch of evening primerose near the sidewalk. Or the weeds growing in the fence line where I'd like to plant some peas. > > Any suggestions? Is there an organic weed killer? I got rid of some Dandelions in the yard by cutting the the root below the soil. That might work for the Dallisgrass but the ones in the fence line are tangled up in the fence. Sydney An awful lot of weeds can play an honourable part in the garden, providing tucker for beneficial insects (even indirectly by hosting aphids!!)and safe shelter for spiders and others. they can also act as living mulch or be used to take up and temporarily store excess fertility.. Things with deep roots like docks and dandelions by delving down can retrieve aand bring back to the surface minerals which have migrated down below the root zones of most crops. For instance, a lot of dandelions and similar plants usually establish themselves in starved lawns as nature's way of providing needed minerals. When dealing with weeds which are really "plants out of place", as others have said, mulching to soften the soil makes hand-pulling a whole lot easier ( I have even sometimes been able to pull quite long dandelions straight out of my vegetable beds without using any sort of tool) but obviously this isn't suitable in all situations. There are three possible organic weedkillers that I know of and use myself where necessary :- 1) Neat vinegar sprayed, watered or painted over the foliage on a hot sunny day. 2) Safers (or equivalent) organic weed killer which is in effect a kind of soft soap (applied as for vinegar). These two are very effective on annuals, but with perennials regrowth may occur, and it is quite often necessary to apply a second dose. 3) (Which is only suitable for weeds with a flat rosette of leaves). A small quantity of salt dropped in the very centre of the rosette. I think someone said also to apply a small amount of water, but I have never found this necessary or desirable, as the more concentrated the salt is the better. It acts on the plant cells with which it is in contact drawing moisture out of them by osmosis, eventually the cells are completely dehydrated and the entire centre of the rosette and eventually the root system as well are in effect burned to death. This treatment is only worth applying in dry weather as rain can dilute the salt and wash it off the plant. If you are using this method to spot-treat a lawn, once the deed is done (the centre of the rosette brown and dead and the outer leaves yellowing) it is a good idea to flood the area with water to dilute and disperse the concentrated salt, otherwise the surrounding grass may be reluctant to grow in and close up the gap. There are also a couple of treatments not involving any sort of chemical. 1) Hot water. This needs to be really hot and a recently-boiled kettle can be amazingly effective. If the weeds are far from any power point, one could perhaps boil up water on a portable picnic stove. This is only suitable in situations where there are no wanted plants to get damaged, such as cracks in paving. 2) Flame weeding. This is used quite extensively in some commercial operations employing something like a blowtorch. Smaller gas torches are sold for home use, but I have found these to be really effective only for annual weeds.They are excellent for use in the stale seedbed technique, where a seedbed is prepared and left vacant a while for any annual weeds to germinate. These are then killed and seeds sown in a clean surface. Usually the kill is done by light hoeing, but this can stir the surface sufficiently to bring up still more weed seed, while the flamer leaves the surface undisturbed. Moira -- Tony & Moira Ryan Wainuiomata, New Zealand (astride the "Ring of Fire" in the SW Pacific). --------------6B75D2F6B31637F67C4F4C1B-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 08:25:53 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA02732 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:25:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA29075; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:19:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.gateway.net (relay7.gateway.net [208.230.117.246]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA28723 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:15:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (1Cust8.tnt6.tco2.da.uu.net [63.23.3.8]) by smtp2.gateway.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA01685 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:21:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000b01bf68c9$973f81a0$0803173f@oemcomputer> From: "skillman" To: Subject: Re: RoundUp Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:22:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3325 Juliette: Please scroll through this and read it!!!! Organic soy beans and products are permitted to have residues of the herbicide called "round up". It is now linked to lynmphoma cancer from research done in Eurorope. I think that it is very important to thoroughly COOK the tofu, tempeh and of course you already cook the beans - might help with the herbicide residue that is considered acceptable use in organic growing but now has been found to cause lymphoma. It is hard to win this game isn't it??? Mary Ann -----Original Message----- From: Frank Teuton To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 6:08 AM Subject: Fw: RoundUp >For Manfred >-----Original Message----- >From: Frank Teuton >To: bdnow@envirolink.org >Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 12:12 PM >Subject: Re: RoundUp > > >>Hi Murray, here's a post from SANET, just in: >> >> >>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:58:33 EDT >>From: Cntraryfmr@aol.com >>Subject: Roundup "the environmentally friendly herbicide" >> >>Subject: Roundup and Cancer >> >>PRESS RELEASE - 22 JUNE - New Study Links Monsanto's Roundup to Cancer >> >>A recent study by eminent oncologists Dr. Lennart Hardell and Dr. Mikael >>Eriksson of Sweden [1], has revealed clear links between one of the world's >>biggest selling herbicide, glyphosate, to non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, a form of >>cancer [2]. >> >>In the study published in the 15 March 1999 Journal of American Cancer >>Society, the researchers also maintain that exposure to glyphosate 'yielded >>increased risks for NHL.' They stress that with the rapidly increasing use >>of glyphosate since the time the study was carried out, 'glyphosate >>deserves further epidemiologic studies.' >> >>Glyphosate, commonly known as Roundup, is the world's most widely used >>herbicide. It is estimated that for 1998, over a 112,000 tonnes of >>glyphosate was used world-wide. It indiscriminately kills off a wide >>variety of weeds after application and is primarily used to control annual >>and perennial plants. >> >>71% of genetically engineered crops planted in 1998 are designed to be >>resistant to herbicides such as glyphosate, marketed by Monsanto as >>Roundup. Companies developing herbicide resistant crops are also increasing >>their production capacity for the herbicides such as glyphosate, and also >>requesting permits for higher residues of these chemicals in genetically >>engineered food. For example, Monsanto have already received permits for a >>threefold increase in herbicide residues on genetically engineered soybeans >>in Europe and the U.S., up from 6 parts per million (PPM) to 20 PPM. >> >>According to Sadhbh O' Neill of Genetic Concern, 'this study reinforces >>concerns by environmentalists and health professionals that far from >>reducing herbicide use, glyphosate resistant crops may result in increased >>residues to which we as consumers will be exposed in our food.' >> >>'Increased residues of glyphosate and its metabolites are already on sale >>via genetically engineered soya, common in processed foods. However no >>studies of the effects of GE soya sprayed with Roundup on health have been >>carried out either on animals or humans to date,' she continued. >> >>The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) statistics from 1997 >>show that expanded plantings of Roundup Ready soybeans (i.e. soybeans >>genetically engineered to be tolerant to the herbicide) resulted in a 72% >>increase in the use of glyphosate. According to the Pesticides Action >>Network, scientists estimate that plants genetically engineered to be >>herbicide resistant will actually triple the amount of herbicides used. >>Farmers, knowing that their crop can tolerate or resist being killed off by >>the herbicides, will tend to use them more liberally. >> >>O' Neill concluded: 'The EPA when authorising Monsanto's field trials for >>Roundup-ready sugar beet did not consider the issue of glyphosate. They >>considered this to be the remit of the Pesticides Control Service of the >>Department of Agriculture. Thus nobody has included the effects of >>increasing the use of glyphosate in the risk/benefit analysis carried out. >>It is yet another example of how regulatory authorities supposedly >>protecting public health have failed to implement the 'precautionary >>principle' with respect to GMOs.' >> >>ENDS >> >>Further information: Sadhbh O' Neill at 01-4760360 or 087-2258599 or >>(home) 01-6774052 >>Notes >> >>[1] Lennart Hardell, M.D., PhD. Department of Oncology, Orebro Medical >>Centre, Orebro, Sweden and Miikael Eriksson, M.D., PhD, Department of >>Oncology, University Hospital, Lund, Sweden, 'A Case-Control Study of >>Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma and Exposure to Pesticides', Cancer, March 15, 1999/ >>Volume 85/ Number 6. >> >>The findings are based on a population-based case-control study conducted >>in Sweden between 1987 - 1990. The necessary data was ascertained by a >>series of comprehensive questionnaires and follow-up telephone interviews. >>Dr. Hardell and Dr. Eriksson found that 'exposure to herbicides and >>fungicides resulted in significantly increased risks for NHL'. >> >>[2] Lymphoma is a form of cancer that afflicts the lymphatic system. It >>can occur at virtually any part of the body but the initial symptoms are >>usually seen as swellings around the lymph nodes at the base of the neck. >>There are basically two main kinds of lymphoma, i.e. Hodgkin's disease and >>non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. >> >>The incidence of NHL has increased rapidly in most Western countries over >>the last few decades. According to the American Cancer Society, there has >>been an alarming 80% increase in incidences of NHL since the early 1970's. >> >>You could also go to the PANUPS site .....at http://www.panna.org and look >>in the PESTIS database they have; Caroline Cox wrote a long review of the >>literature some time ago, and others are adding to it, as seen above. >> >>HTH, >> >>Frank >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Murray Henderson >>To: bdnow@envirolink.org >>Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 10:38 AM >>Subject: RoundUp >> >> >>>I've been watching this list for some time now, and have seen several >times >>>the subject of the use of RoundUp. I've picked up on the fact that it is a >>>bad substance, and have been persuaded that it should not be used. But I >>>really don't know WHY. >>> >>>The reason I am asking for someone to explain to me is because my >neighbour >>>was using it the other day from a spray pump bottle on his lawn. I felt >>>like going up to him and asking him to stop. I didn't. I have since >>>realized that I wouldn't have really been able to defend my position on it >>>had he asked me WHY. All I would have been able to say was "I am growing >my >>>vegetables within a few metres of your weed problem." >>> >>> >>>Murray Henderson - Kitchener, Ontario, Canada >>> >>> >> > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 08:54:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03071 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01375; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:48:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01251 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:47:06 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.10.69f2fb (7381) for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:52:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <10.69f2fb.25c1a79c@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:52:28 EST Subject: Re: [Fwd: Roundup withdrawal] To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3326 In a message dated 1/27/00 7:35:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, rbfarr@erols.com writes: << There are three possible organic weedkillers that I know of and use myself where necessary :- 1) Neat vinegar sprayed, watered or painted over the foliage on a hot sunny day. >> Sounds interesting but what is "neat" vinegar? Dan Lynch, Long Mountain Vineyard From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 09:52:19 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03999 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07348; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:46:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06934 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:41:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha15s189.d.shentel.net [204.111.54.189]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20457 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:49:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38905A16.9A49C429@LightExpression.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:45:42 -0500 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Campbell/Ms Fallon and Such References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3327 Allan Balliett wrote: > In response to Guillermo Romero Ibarrola's concern expressed on SANET > about information I posted to BD Now! earlier that contained Ms. > Sally Fallon's inflammatory assertion: > > > >Colin Campbell is a complete fool who makes claims for his China study that > >>are not true, and who is advocating a vegan death diet for growing > > >children. > > A propos of lard and the uneducated: Lard in the Mexican diet is one of the > few sources of vitamin D. It is an extremely important part of the Mexican > diet. Unfortunately, the "educated" have been convinced that they should > avoid foods like lard. Anyone trying to get the "uneducated" to stop using > lard (and other animal foods) should carefully examine the long term > consequences. > Greetings All! Thought that I would just interject another tangent to this discussion. Would it be possible that it doesn't matter (to the degree which we are giving attention) as to what we necessarily eat. If we do the best that we can ???? and eat what we feel to be "right", then, maybe, we will be OK -- or maybe not. For instance -- it has been said that David Letterman (popular late night talk show host) is diet conscious, exercises, and is quite light in weight for his build. His goal was to take care of himself so that he would have a healthy life. So, what happens -- he went in for a physical recently and was sent directly to the hospital for a multiple bypass operation to relieve his body of super clogged arteries! What does this mean? Another example of notable consideration is Sharon's father who past away some years ago. His cholesterol levels (bad ones) were OK -- in acceptable ranges. Yet, when he was admitted to the hospital with health challenges, it was found that his arteries were heavily built up with plaque. So, what is the challenge? Could it be issues of the heart? Love issues? How do we react in the world -- with our fellow human beings? Could life really be about metaphysical challenges -- literally, "beyond the physical"? Our thoughts are our prayers and we must be acutely considerate (I believe) that we learn to forgive, love (total respect), and care for our fellow man (and woman) in a deeply meaningful way. These tasks can be deeply difficult to remedy for some. Perhaps that this is a Divine plan -- and we can take the Divine path, or we can choose the Earth path. Both intertwine and always meet at some point. In light, Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 10:06:54 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04197 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:06:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08711; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:00:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08322 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:56:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha15s189.d.shentel.net [204.111.54.189]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21296 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:05:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38905DC1.C02C8089@LightExpression.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:01:21 -0500 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bio-Dynamic List Subject: Organic is Better! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3328 Folks -- here is a blurb that many of you will appreciate -- just recently passed on to us by a friend....... *********** Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 SCIENTISTS PROVE SUPERIOR NUTRITIVE VALUE OF ORGANIC FOOD If you are not yet choosing Organic foods, this article may tip the scales in favor of them to not only avoid all the damaging chemicals from pesticides, fungicides, etc. but also the MUCH higher nutrition. Researchers at Rutgers University set-out to disprove the claim that "Organic Is Better". They purchased selections of produce at supermarkets and healthfood stores and analyzed for mineral content. Organic foods were those grown without the use of chemical pesticides or artificial fertilizers. Non-Organic foods, referred to here as "Commercial," were grown with a variety of chemicals that enhance growth or destroy pests, many of which are known or suspected carcinogens (cancer-causing) and which cause greater erosion to the environment and wildlife. The idea that Organic crops are nutritionally superior has been accepted largely on faith. There has been very little hard evidence to support this supposition. Rutgers researchers expected the Organic produce to be maybe slightly higher in comparison, but the results were astounding! The amount of iron in the Organic spinach was 97% more than the Commercial spinach, and the manganese was 99% greater in the Organic. Many essential trace elements were completely absent in the Commercial produce whereas they were abundant, comparatively, in their Organically grown counterparts. MAJOR MINERALS Milliequivalents per 100 Grams Dry Weight: Trace Elements, Parts per Million Dry Matter MINERAL: PHOSPHOROUS MAGNESIUM SNAP BEANS Organic 10.45 0.36 Commercial 4.04 0.22 CABBAGE Oganic 10.38 0.38 Commercial 6.12 0.18 LETTUCE Organic 24.48 0.43 Commercial 7.01 0.22 TOMATOES Organic 14.2 0.35 Commercial 6.07 0.16 SPINACH Organic 28.56 0.52 Commercial 12.38 0.27 ~~~~~~~ MINERAL: SODIUM MANGANESE SNAP BEANS Organic 40.5 60 Commercial 15.5 14.8 CABBAGE Organic 60.0 43.6 Commercial 17.5 13.6 LETTUCE Organic 71 49.3 Commercial 16 13.1 TOMATOES Organic 23 59.2 Commercial 4.5 4.5 SPINACH Organic 96 203.9 Commercial 47.5 46.9 ~~~~~~~~~ MINERAL: COPPER ASH SNAP BEANS Organic 99.7 8.6 Commercial 29.1 0.9 CABBAGE Organic 148.3 20.4 Commercial 33.7 0.8 LETTUCE Organic 176.5 12.2 Commercial 53.7 0 TOMATOES Organic 148.3 6.5 Commercial 58.8 0 SPINACH Organic 237 69.5 Commercial 84.6 0 ~~~~~~~ MINERAL: CALCIUM POTASSIUM SNAP BEANS Organic 73 60 Commercial 10 2 CABBAGE Organic 42 13 Commercial 7 2 LETTUCE Organic 37 169 Commercial 6 1 TOMATOES Organic 36 68 Commercial 3 1 SPINACH Organic 88 117 Commercial 12 1 ~~~~~~~~ MINERAL: BORON IRON SNAP BEANS Organic 227 69 Commercial 10 3 CABBAGE Organic 94 48 Commercial 20 0.4 LETTUCE Organic 516 60 Commercial 9 3 TOMATOES Organic 1938 53 Commercial 1 0 SPINACH Organic 1584 32 Commercial 49 0.3 ~~~~~~~~~~ MINERAL: COBALT SNAP BEANS Organic 0.26 Commercial 0 CABBAGE Organic 0.15 Commercial 0 LETTUCE Organic 0.19 Commercial 0 TOMATOES Organic 0.63 Commercial 0 SPINACH Organic 0.25 Commercial 0.2 2 other sites to visit for the more reasons to choose Organic foods: http://home.sol.no/~dusan/ecology.html Go to this "supermarket": http://www.foodnews.org/supermarket.html choose your foods you are usually buying , and you will get the list of pesticides that you are eating, and what kind of health problems those pesticides are connected to. http://www.ctrl.org/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soap-boxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'-with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds-is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ============================================= -- *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 10:35:37 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04550 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11617; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:29:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11478 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:27:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha18s222.d.shentel.net [204.111.21.222]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23417 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:36:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38906512.1FAA146A@LightExpression.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:32:34 -0500 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bio-Dynamic List Subject: Re: BD and Nature References: <30.830e20.25bd283f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3329 Howdy once again......... In response to the recently posted article about BD and how it intertwines with the work here at our Farm, one of our fellow listers replied with questions. Following is a response from Sharon on those inquiries........ ******* (Question) > > Hi > I'm trying to find out at this time of year, > specifically at Candlemas, Feb 2, what elementals are most active. Is it the > gnomes or the undines. And what are they active at? > I know so little about thier activity and would be grateful if you could tell > me anything about their role in Nature. > Your farm sounds idylic, how do you connect with the overlighting deva? > Do they find this an intrusion or are they grateful for your interest and > help? > lots of questions > Thanking you in advance. (Answer) Overlighting Devas (angels), are the beings which hold the architectural blueprint for a particular species within Nature, and Nature Spirits (elementals) address the shifting of the energy reality, which was formulated at the Devic level, from energy to the specific form. When you want information about any species (plant, mineral, etc.) you would connect (tools might include dowsing, kinesiology, or mental intuitive for the more gifted) with the Overlighting Deva of that species to address your questions. All things (groups of anything material on this 3D plane) in Nature have a Deva which holds the architectural blueprint for that specific species (aspect) within Nature. Devas and their counterpart from the elemental kingdom are active and willing to assist us (humans) everyday. Simply asking to be connected with an overlighting Deva (say, of Tulips) will get you that connection. Dowsing is a great tool for the conscious verification of that connection. You may wish to check out the Light Expression Website for instructions on dowsing ( http://www.LightExpression.com/index2.htm ). And, no, Nature, on any level, never finds our interest and desire to connect and ask questions, an intrusion. They will always make themselves available (in loving participation) to assist us with our needs and concerns. I will be scheduling classes for this Spring and Summer here at the Farm in the very near future in the upcoming Light Expression Newsletter. I will be glad to add those who are ready for this path to understanding to our mailing. The classes address a wide spectrum of topics: Communicating with Nature for gardening, healing and transformation, personal and global ascension (and what this entails). I hope that this brief response to your inquiry is helpful -- there is so much information to these simple questions that it can actually become a minimum of a day's class. In light, Sharon *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 10:55:22 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04916 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:55:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13599; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13065 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:44:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from micron - 204.30.201.153 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:50:02 -0800 Message-ID: <001801bf68de$6070d920$99c91ecc@micron> From: "Wells" To: References: <10.69f2fb.25c1a79c@aol.com> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Roundup withdrawal] Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:51:28 -0800 Organization: Microsoft Corporation X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3330 And what are the other organic weed killers? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 5:52 AM Subject: Re: [Fwd: Roundup withdrawal] > In a message dated 1/27/00 7:35:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, rbfarr@erols.com > writes: > > << There are three possible organic weedkillers that I know of and use > myself where necessary :- > > 1) Neat vinegar sprayed, watered or painted over the foliage on a hot > sunny day. >> > > Sounds interesting but what is "neat" vinegar? > > Dan Lynch, Long Mountain Vineyard > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 11:15:33 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05621 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16113; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:09:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from toolbox.total.net (toolbox.total.net [154.11.89.179]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15317 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:04:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 9414 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2000 16:10:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO windows98) (216.210.28.132) by smtp.total.net with SMTP; 27 Jan 2000 16:10:05 -0000 Message-ID: <042001bf68df$77fe1840$7d1dd2d8@windows98> From: "Frank Teuton" To: Subject: Re: Organic is Better! Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:59:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3331 Just for the record, the below is not an accurate study of Organic vs Conventional, was not done recently, and is generally decipherable as such because: The principal researchers are not named; and The name of the peer reviewed journal in which it was published is not given. Like the perennial recycling of the post about how Congress is about to start charging us a nickel for every emailing, this information is bogus. The Internet is a powerful tool for information and technology transfer, for sharing thoughts, ideas, and feelings, for networking and communicating. But it is also a playground for misinformation.... Caveat lector, indeed! Frank Teuton -----Original Message----- From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern To: Bio-Dynamic List Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 10:06 AM Subject: Organic is Better! >Folks -- here is a blurb that many of you will appreciate -- just >recently passed on to us by a friend....... > >*********** > >Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 > >SCIENTISTS PROVE SUPERIOR NUTRITIVE VALUE >OF ORGANIC FOOD > >If you are not yet choosing Organic foods, this article may tip >the scales in favor of them to not only avoid all the damaging >chemicals from pesticides, fungicides, etc. but also the MUCH >higher nutrition. Researchers at Rutgers University set-out to >disprove the claim that "Organic Is Better". They purchased >selections of produce at supermarkets and healthfood stores and >analyzed for mineral content. Organic foods were those grown >without the use of chemical pesticides or artificial fertilizers. > >Non-Organic foods, referred to here as "Commercial," were grown >with a variety of chemicals that enhance growth or destroy pests, >many of which are known or suspected carcinogens (cancer-causing) >and which cause greater erosion to the environment and wildlife. >The idea that Organic crops are nutritionally superior has been >accepted largely on faith. There has been very little hard evidence >to support this supposition. Rutgers researchers expected the >Organic produce to be maybe slightly higher in comparison, but >the results were astounding! The amount of iron in the Organic >spinach was 97% more than the Commercial spinach, and the >manganese was 99% greater in the Organic. Many essential trace >elements were completely absent in the Commercial produce whereas >they were abundant, comparatively, in their Organically grown >counterparts. > >MAJOR MINERALS Milliequivalents per 100 Grams Dry Weight: >Trace Elements, Parts per Million Dry Matter > >MINERAL: > PHOSPHOROUS MAGNESIUM > >SNAP BEANS > Organic 10.45 0.36 > Commercial 4.04 0.22 > >CABBAGE > Oganic 10.38 0.38 > Commercial 6.12 0.18 > >LETTUCE > Organic 24.48 0.43 > Commercial 7.01 0.22 > >TOMATOES > Organic 14.2 0.35 > Commercial 6.07 0.16 > >SPINACH > Organic 28.56 0.52 > Commercial 12.38 0.27 > >~~~~~~~ > >MINERAL: SODIUM MANGANESE > >SNAP BEANS > Organic 40.5 60 > Commercial 15.5 14.8 > >CABBAGE > Organic 60.0 43.6 > Commercial 17.5 13.6 > >LETTUCE > Organic 71 49.3 > Commercial 16 13.1 > >TOMATOES > Organic 23 59.2 > Commercial 4.5 4.5 > >SPINACH > Organic 96 203.9 > Commercial 47.5 46.9 > >~~~~~~~~~ > >MINERAL: COPPER ASH > >SNAP BEANS > Organic 99.7 8.6 > Commercial 29.1 0.9 > >CABBAGE > Organic 148.3 20.4 > Commercial 33.7 0.8 > >LETTUCE > Organic 176.5 12.2 > Commercial 53.7 0 > >TOMATOES > Organic 148.3 6.5 > Commercial 58.8 0 > >SPINACH > Organic 237 69.5 > Commercial 84.6 0 > >~~~~~~~ > >MINERAL: CALCIUM POTASSIUM >SNAP BEANS > Organic 73 60 > Commercial 10 2 > >CABBAGE > Organic 42 13 > Commercial 7 2 > >LETTUCE > Organic 37 169 > Commercial 6 1 > >TOMATOES > Organic 36 68 > Commercial 3 1 > >SPINACH > Organic 88 117 > Commercial 12 1 > >~~~~~~~~ > >MINERAL: BORON IRON > >SNAP BEANS > Organic 227 69 > Commercial 10 3 > >CABBAGE > Organic 94 48 > Commercial 20 0.4 > >LETTUCE > Organic 516 60 > Commercial 9 3 > >TOMATOES > Organic 1938 53 > Commercial 1 0 > >SPINACH > Organic 1584 32 > Commercial 49 0.3 > >~~~~~~~~~~ > >MINERAL: COBALT > >SNAP BEANS > Organic 0.26 > Commercial 0 > >CABBAGE > Organic 0.15 > Commercial 0 > >LETTUCE > Organic 0.19 > Commercial 0 > >TOMATOES > Organic 0.63 > Commercial 0 > >SPINACH > Organic 0.25 > Commercial 0.2 > >2 other sites to visit for the more reasons to choose Organic foods: >http://home.sol.no/~dusan/ecology.html > >Go to this "supermarket": http://www.foodnews.org/supermarket.html >choose your foods you are usually buying , and you will get the list >of pesticides that you are eating, and what kind of health problems >those pesticides are connected to. http://www.ctrl.org/ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a >discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic >screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soap-boxing! These are >sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'-with its many half-truths, >misdirections and outright frauds-is used politically by different >groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the >spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no >endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; >be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust >denial and nazi's need not apply. > >Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > ============================================= > >-- >*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* > >Sharon and Wayne McEachern > >http://www.LightExpression.com > >Essences@LightExpression.com > >"A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" > >*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 11:39:25 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06005 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:39:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19115; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:33:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18562 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:29:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d142.infoserve.net [199.175.157.142]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id IAA20388; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:39:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000601bf68e5$437e1880$8e9dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: "Guillermo Romero" Cc: Subject: Re: New book about the ag course Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:40:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3332 Hi G., "The Birth of a new Agriculture, Koberwitz 1924. Edited by Adalbert Graf van Keyserlingk includes "Twelve Days with RS" by Countess Johanna Keyserlingk. Tmeple Lodge Publishing, 51 Queen Caroline St., London, W6 9QL, 1999 ISBN 1 902636 07 4 This book was dedicated to John Wood, who died just after finishing translating the book. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Guillermo Romero To: mroboz@infoserve.net Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 7:33 AM Subject: New book about the ag course >Dear Michael: > >If I remember correctly you once mentioned a book that was based on the accounts of the participants on the Agriculture course. If you have this info, could you please send me the title, author and other references you might have. I could not find it in the BDA web page, but I remember seen it on the JPI books table at Allan's conference. > >Many thanks and warm greetings > >Guillermo Romero Ibarrola >Comala, Colima, MEXICO > > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 11:53:52 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06271 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20962; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20482 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:43:11 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.e6.c7920f (3936) for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:48:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:48:19 EST Subject: Re: Organic is Better! - Wayne or Sharon To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3333 Nice info folks BUT please site the reference for it, otherwise...not much use. Dan Lynch, Long Mountain Vineyard In a message dated 1/27/00 10:08:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, Essences@LightExpression.com writes: << Folks -- here is a blurb that many of you will appreciate -- just recently passed on to us by a friend....... *********** Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 SCIENTISTS PROVE SUPERIOR NUTRITIVE VALUE OF ORGANIC FOOD If you are not yet choosing Organic foods, this article may tip the scales in favor of them to not only avoid all the damaging chemicals from pesticides, fungicides, etc. but also the MUCH higher nutrition. Researchers at Rutgers University set-out to disprove the claim that "Organic Is Better". They purchased selections of produce at supermarkets and healthfood stores and analyzed for mineral content. Organic foods were those grown without the use of chemical pesticides or artificial fertilizers. Non-Organic foods, referred to here as "Commercial," were grown with a variety of chemicals that enhance growth or destroy pests, many of which are known or suspected carcinogens (cancer-causing) and which cause greater erosion to the environment and wildlife. The idea that Organic crops are nutritionally superior has been accepted largely on faith. There has been very little hard evidence to support this supposition. Rutgers researchers expected the Organic produce to be maybe slightly higher in comparison, but the results were astounding! The amount of iron in the Organic spinach was 97% more than the Commercial spinach, and the manganese was 99% greater in the Organic. Many essential trace elements were completely absent in the Commercial produce whereas they were abundant, comparatively, in their Organically grown counterparts. MAJOR MINERALS Milliequivalents per 100 Grams Dry Weight: Trace Elements, Parts per Million Dry Matter MINERAL: PHOSPHOROUS MAGNESIUM SNAP BEANS Organic 10.45 0.36 Commercial 4.04 0.22 CABBAGE Oganic 10.38 0.38 Commercial 6.12 0.18 LETTUCE Organic 24.48 0.43 Commercial 7.01 0.22 TOMATOES Organic 14.2 0.35 Commercial 6.07 0.16 SPINACH Organic 28.56 0.52 Commercial 12.38 0.27 ~~~~~~~ MINERAL: SODIUM MANGANESE SNAP BEANS Organic 40.5 60 Commercial 15.5 14.8 CABBAGE Organic 60.0 43.6 Commercial 17.5 13.6 LETTUCE Organic 71 49.3 Commercial 16 13.1 TOMATOES Organic 23 59.2 Commercial 4.5 4.5 SPINACH Organic 96 203.9 Commercial 47.5 46.9 ~~~~~~~~~ MINERAL: COPPER ASH SNAP BEANS Organic 99.7 8.6 Commercial 29.1 0.9 CABBAGE Organic 148.3 20.4 Commercial 33.7 0.8 LETTUCE Organic 176.5 12.2 Commercial 53.7 0 TOMATOES Organic 148.3 6.5 Commercial 58.8 0 SPINACH Organic 237 69.5 Commercial 84.6 0 ~~~~~~~ MINERAL: CALCIUM POTASSIUM SNAP BEANS Organic 73 60 Commercial 10 2 CABBAGE Organic 42 13 Commercial 7 2 LETTUCE Organic 37 169 Commercial 6 1 TOMATOES Organic 36 68 Commercial 3 1 SPINACH Organic 88 117 Commercial 12 1 ~~~~~~~~ MINERAL: BORON IRON SNAP BEANS Organic 227 69 Commercial 10 3 CABBAGE Organic 94 48 Commercial 20 0.4 LETTUCE Organic 516 60 Commercial 9 3 TOMATOES Organic 1938 53 Commercial 1 0 SPINACH Organic 1584 32 Commercial 49 0.3 ~~~~~~~~~~ MINERAL: COBALT SNAP BEANS Organic 0.26 Commercial 0 CABBAGE Organic 0.15 Commercial 0 LETTUCE Organic 0.19 Commercial 0 TOMATOES Organic 0.63 Commercial 0 SPINACH Organic 0.25 Commercial 0.2 >> From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 11:55:02 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06320 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:55:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21129; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20564 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:43:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.16] (pm3shep1-163-16.intrepid.net [209.190.163.16]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13409 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:49:28 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:44:26 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Fwd: Ted's opinions -Reply Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3334 >Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:42:54 -0500 >From: Ted Rogers >To: flylo@txcyber.com >Cc: igg@igg.com >Subject: Ted's opinions -Reply > >Allan, please post: > >Martha, >Alas, that is the very reason that I do not want to get into such a >discussion; so long as you lean on, harp on, depend on negatives to >define your methodology/philosophy then you are going to draw negative >energy... To me and a few of the other surviving old-timers the poetry of >the organic method and if you can cop to it certainly the BD method was >and is that if you do it right you don't need the biocides(very often) and >most of the fertilizers ever. > >So far as complaining about the conventional practitioners not having to >document anything, get real, the rigor of agricultural and environmental >regulation is overwhelming (I didn't say effective). You also need to >remember that, those dirty old conventional farmers and that nasty old >food processing and distribution system feed one hell of a lot more >people than the tiny (that is tiny physically, mentally, and emotionally) >organic industry ever will. > >Best, > >Ted -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 14:04:42 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08764 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:04:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09294; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:55:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08914 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:51:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha14s149.d.shentel.net [204.111.53.149]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06093 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:00:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <389094D9.BA96EFD3@LightExpression.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:56:25 -0500 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Organic is Better! - Wayne or Sharon References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3335 OK -- hope what follows helps -- the best that I can do. read on....... LMvine@aol.com wrote: > Nice info folks BUT please site the reference for it, otherwise...not much > use. > > Dan Lynch, Long Mountain Vineyard > Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http://archive.jab.org/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/ ============================================= To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Om From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 18:03:14 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12833 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:03:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08846; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f246.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.246]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08260 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:51:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 12146 invoked by uid 0); 27 Jan 2000 22:56:37 -0000 Message-ID: <20000127225637.12145.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.145.207.60 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:56:37 PST X-Originating-IP: [208.145.207.60] From: "Doug & Jay" To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Finding Free or Low Cost Websites Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:56:37 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3336 Hi Folks, Does anyone know where to find free or low cost sites where an individual can create their own website? Also, do these places incorporate info/software that enables one to create the website easily and upload photos? Thanks, Doug Stewart Iowa ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 18:31:28 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA13265 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:31:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12151; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:25:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11693 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:21:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (ctca51.vthokies.net [206.153.172.51]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15393 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:58:27 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.0.29.1.20000127161243.00a919a0@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.29 (Beta) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:28:09 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: mineral accumulators In-Reply-To: <006801bf664f$6dc2dd80$9a7311ce@siesta> References: <38829CB8.5CA8@xtra.co.nz> <4.3.0.29.1.20000122215222.00a57dd0@swva.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3337 At 10:43 PM 1/24/00 +1300, Ian Buckingham wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: gardner > > I am a little confused here. You seem to be distinguishing > > between "accumulators" (which accumulate certain elements in their tissues > > even when they are scarce in the soil) and "super-accumulators" (which > > accumulate certain elements even when they are abundant in the soil). On > > the other hand, you speak of some (most?) plants "putting in more than > > they take out". What are these, "negative accumulators"? Are they > > accumulating elements from the atmosphere? > >Malcolm > >Perhaps to clarify my thoughts, if I explain how I see the spreadsheet being >used may help matters. >Firstly in the market garden situation. > >Using dandelion as the example. We see that it is reported as being high in >phosphate (P). Now if my garden was low in P I could look at the chart see >that Dandelion has good P content and encourage its growth. I suspect, >however, that I would not add a great deal to the P content of the soil, >using chemical soil test analysis data. But by adding to the compost heap or >to a liquid brew and exposing the break down of the plant to the compost >preps then I believe we will get far better results. To quote Pfeiffer from >Soil Fertility >"The compost made of weeds or of medicinal herbs can carry to the soil just >what can be brought to it in no other way, in a form organically in harmony >with it. Since, to a large degree, we have to do with dynamic effects, the >most minute quantities of this substance, or that, may often be sufficient." >(Soil Fertility, Pg 125) >So as a gardener it is a way of increasing certain mineral levels. Not to be >relied on solely I might add. > >The super accumulators, as you call them, would be like stinging nettle that >helps to decrease the iron content of the soil. (Soil Fertility, Pg 89) >Those used in a water treatment bed system could be incorporated here as >well. >Chapter Eleven of Soil fertility explains plant dynamics far better than I >can. Yes and no are large sentences for me :>) If I understand you correctly, you are saying one can remedy soil mineral deficiencies by "fertilizing" with composts made from specific accumulator plants. And on the other hand, one can remedy soil mineral excesses by planting specific (super) accumulator plants. I wonder now whether can also *plant* certain species in order to remedy certain soil *deficiencies* (Scotch thistles for soils deficient in K?). I should think so, but I would like to hear you say so explicitly, and I also wonder whether one can know which plants these are from your spreadsheet. In other words, it is pretty simple to imagine that some plants can "soak up" excess elements in the soil, and that then one can harvest these, compost them, and use them as a fertilizer. But if some plants can enrich the soil *while they are growing*, this means (does it not?) that they must be accumulating from the *atmosphere*. This is the case with legumes and other N-fixers; could this not also be the case for other accumulator species with respect to other elements? Do you know of any other cases? It seems to me that it might be a pretty significant distinction, whether a species accumulated an element "downward" out of the atmosphere, or "upward" out of the soil. In addition to these considerations, there is also the question whether in some case the elements accumulated started out as different elements, in other words, whether any transmutation took place. Sincerely, Malcolm Gardner From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 19:57:56 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA14626 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:57:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19667; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:51:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA19533 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:50:13 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp361.cy-net.net [208.21.195.170]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02955 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:56:07 -0600 Message-Id: <200001280056.SAA02955@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:53:40 -0600 Subject: Re: Fwd: Ted's opinions -Reply (well, why not?) Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3338 As usual, I can't find the original quote that inspired me to write. But, what is so wrong with asking / demanding that 'truth in advertising' be expanded to the food that the general populace buys? If they don't have to label irradiated foods, if they don't have to mark the meat that has had steroids, antibiotics, and fed on fertilized, pesticide-laden forages, well, why not? Why isn't the grass roots and organic fronts more concerned about the ever-tightening stringency laws governing their certification programs, yet, anyone can grow ANYTHING and sell it and never have to produce what was used to create it. No, I didn't just wake up to this new world, I just am voicing an old old wonder. Granted, I agree, the wheat fields, the corn fields, the mega livestock commissions, all feed the nation probably 1000xxx more than the people who seek out organic certification systems. (And, even the organic buyers may not be quite ready for biodynamic foodstuffs.) I don't believe I suggested that end. There is still that (chemical) choice, even if everything were labeled equally. But, an equal system is a nice dream to pursue! Let me dream it for awhile longer, even if you suggest all the while for me to 'get real'. Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 22:02:45 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA16197 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 22:02:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA02905; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:56:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02072 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:48:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d166.infoserve.net [199.175.157.166]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id SAA01364 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:59:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000801bf693b$d0edde20$a69dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: OFF / Fw: GEN1-26 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:00:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3339 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 10:57 AM Subject: GEN1-26 >Tuesday, January 25, 2000 > >Canada under fire for stand on genetically modified food Priority on trade; >developing nations fear threat to crops > >National Post, with files from The Canadian Press > >MONTREAL - Canada's position on genetically modified food came under fire >yesterday at an international trade conference. > >Delegates from about 130 countries are meeting in Montreal to set ground >rules for the potentially enormous trade in genetically modified organisms >-- which include long-lasting tomatoes and chemical-resistant grain. > >Canada wants the rules regarding the trade in modified food defined in >terms of economics. > >But some developing nations at the conference say genetically altered >organisms may threaten their native crops and ecosystems. > >Nations such as Nigeria want any protocol reached by the conference to >reflect this concern for safety and environmental protection. > >Protesters outside the meeting denounced the position taken by Canada and >other big food-exporting countries. They set the tone with a puppet dressed >as a genetically altered cob of corn, bristling with teeth and a >Greenpeace banner proclaiming: "No to genetic pollution; Biosafety now." > >Steve Shallhorn, spokesman for the environmental group Greenpeace, said the >Canadian position reflects the needs of the biotech industry. > >"They [the federal government] tried to pull a fast one on consumers, but >once people realized they're eating food that's genetically altered, >they've become quite concerned," Mr. Shallhorn said. > >"They're saying: 'What benefit is there to me or the environment? The food >is no more nutritious, it's not cheaper, we're taking all sorts of risks >and we don't know what the long-term effects are of altering genes and >taking genes from one species and inserting them into another.' " > >Canada has a prominent role at the week-long meeting in part because it was >the first country to sign the 1993 Convention on Biological Diversity, >which forms the legal foundation for the proposed new protocol. > >Canada is also chairman of the so-called Miami group -- the U.S., >Argentina, Australia, Chile, and Uruguay -- which is seen as pushing for >wide acceptance of genetically altered products. > >Richard Ballhorn, a co-chairman of the Canadian delegation, denied that >Canada was trying to subordinate environmental concerns to trade rules. >"What we're looking to do is clarify the relationship of the protocol to >other agreements, in particular, the world of trade since what we're >dealing with is transboundary movement." Mr. Ballhorn says Canada doesn't >want the new rules to run afoul of the existing trade rules, but that's not >the emphasis many developing countries are looking for. > >Delegates from about 70 developing countries have formed the Like-Minded >bloc to push for a wider list of products to be covered by the protocol >and for individual countries to be given rights to block imports of >products they feel could be harmful to their environments. > >"We represent 80% of humanity," said Dr. Tewolde Egziabher, an Ethiopian >delegate. "And our views should not be taken to represent only one of five >groups." > >The European Union wants precise labeling for genetically modified crops >and foods derived from them. It has been slower at approving new >genetically modified products than the United States and Canada because of >widespread consumer concerns about food safety. > >..... > >CBC website news > >http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/NWview.cgi?/news/2000/01/25/geneticfood0001 25 > >Association calls for labelling of genetically modified food > >WebPosted Tue Jan 25 > >OTTAWA - The Canadian Health Food Association wants the federal government >to introduce mandatory labelling for genetically modified food. > >The trade organization presented a petition Tuesday to the Minister of >Agriculture, Lyle Vanclief, containing 31,000 signatures collected from >customers at their local stores. > >Association president Donna Herringer told reporters that her group is >extremely concerned about "genetically modified organisms and ingredients >in our food chain." > >Herringer explains that there have been no clinical trials to determine the >long term health consequences of foods that are genetically modified. > >Brock Elliot owns a health food store in Halifax. He says he can't tell the >difference between foods that are or are not genetically modified. > >"Products that come into my store are not labelled. So consequently to the >best of my knowledge, we do not really know what is on the plate in front >of us." > >Herringer says the government should have consulted Canadians on issues >such as labelling years ago. > >..... > >http://cnniw.newsreal.com/cgi-bin/NewsService?osform_template=pages/cnniwSt ory&I >D > >=cnniw&storypath=News/Story_2000_01_26.NRdb@2@19@3@1014&path >=News/Category.NRdb@2@23 > > Farmers Seek Genetic Crop Controls > Source: Associated Press >Publication date: Jan 26, 2000 > > > MONTREAL (AP) -- Small-scale farmers from around the world came to >Montreal on Wednesday to ask for regulations limiting what they call >"genetic pollution" -- genetically modified crops spreading their altered >genes into the environment around them. > > "The problem is totally out of control," said Canadian farmer Hart Haiden. > > He said that in the Canadian provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan, genes >from genetically engineered canola plants have already spread to unaltered >varieties. And because European countries may ban imports of genetically >engineered canola, that may shut Canada out of a major market. > > Representatives from around the world are meeting in Montreal this week to >negotiate the > Biosafety Protocol, a set of rules that would protect the environment from >damage caused by the spread of genetically engineered crops. The >U.N.-sponsored talks continue through Friday. > > While the United States and other major agricultural exporters are >calling for relatively free trade, a coalition of developing nations wants >countries to be allowed to say no to imports of the crops. > > "Each country should have the sovereign right to ban the planting and >import of transgenic plants," said Porfirio Encino, who represents an >association of small farmers in Mexico's Chiapas state. > > Organic farmers are especially concerned because plants are very >efficient at spreading genetic information. Honeybees can carry canola >pollen up to five miles, and under some conditions wind can blow tree >pollen dozens of miles. > > "The problem is that genetic pollution can't be contained, or even >cleaned up afterwards," said Steve Gilman, an organic farmer in Stillwater, >N.Y. > > He charged that Bt corn, a variety genetically engineered to produce a >natural insecticide, will cause irreparable harm to organic farmers. > > Organic farmers use Bt because it is produced by a natural bacterium. But >if Bt corn spreads it more widely in the environment, Gilman worries that >pests will build up resistance, just as they have to some chemical >insecticides. > > "I worry that we will lose Bt altogether," he said. > > To prevent that outcome, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency >recently recommended that farmers plant refuges of non-Bt plants alongside >their genetically modified varieties. Farmers who plant Bt corn say that is >enough. > > Robert M. Boeding, who grows corn in northeastern Iowa, said he plants 40 >percent of his land in unaltered corn when he uses the Bt variety. And he >plants the genetically altered corn only one or two years out of three. > > "The longer I use it the more I believe in it," he said. > > Bt corn actually protects the environment, Boeding said, because it keeps >him from having to use toxic chemical insecticides to control pests. > >.... > >http://www.newsunlimited.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,129262,00.html > > New food watchdog backs > GM labelling > > > GM food: special report > > James Meikle > Thursday January 27, 2000 > > The chairman of the new food standards agency clashed with the industry >yesterday when he backed the campaign for more detailed labelling of all >ingredients derived from genetically modified organisms. > > Sir John Krebs said consumers needed the extra information to make their >own choices about what they ate but the manufacturers made clear they would >fight any further rules - and would not agree to any voluntary codes. > >.... >Genetic engineering 'most menacing', says scientist > > by Kelly McAra >Waikato Times (Hamilton N.Z.) 00-1-27 > >A scientist has warned dairy farmers the hazards of genetic engineering >rival those of nuclear war. > >Speaking to about 100 people in Hamilton today, ecologist Robert Mann said >GE was the "most menacing of modern technologies" and a poor bet for dairy >farmers. > >Dr Mann, speaking at the Dairy Expo, compared GE to nuclear science and the >1986 Chernobyl nuclear accident. > > > >__________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign >for Mandatory labelling and long-term >testing of genetically engineered food >500 Wilbrod Street, Ottawa, ON K1N 6N2 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net >http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >subcription to genetic engineering news of 12 months >is $35 (payable to BanGEF at above address) >__________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 22:07:18 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA16262 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 22:07:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03379; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 22:01:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02936 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:57:08 -0500 (EST) From: NEILLCO@aol.com Received: from NEILLCO@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.cb.14ed3f0 (1758) for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 22:02:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 22:02:22 EST Subject: Re: Finding Free or Low Cost Websites To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 146 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3340 Three places I know for free internet access: AltaVista has free internet, home page and email service. (http://www.zdnet.com/downloads/altavista/index.html) It looks alot simpler than NetZero until you hit their terms of use disclaimer. Juno has free internet, email and web page (up to 12 MB); http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web NetZero (https://gold.netzero.net/javascript.html) free if you have a PC, they didn't service Macs last time I checked. Subscribers get internet access for free, Net Zero gets "subscribers basic demographic and geographic information along with data on their hobbies and interests." They say that is to customize the advertising that subscribers would receive in Freenets advertising window. Email is available too. RB From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 23:10:05 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA17065 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:10:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08295; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:03:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from pimout4-int.prodigy.net (pimout4-1.prodigy.net [207.115.58.238]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08058 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:00:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (SHOKB810-17.splitrock.net [209.253.230.17]) by pimout4-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA33282 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:06:08 -0500 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Stephen Merritt" To: Subject: RE: [Fwd: Roundup withdrawal] Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:06:51 -0800 Message-ID: <000901bf6945$1b73d860$11e6fdd1@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 In-Reply-To: <001801bf68de$6070d920$99c91ecc@micron> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3341 Perhaps its like "neat" scotch, without ice or water :) -----Original Message----- From: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org [mailto:owner-bdnow@envirolink.org]On Behalf Of Wells Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 7:51 AM To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Roundup withdrawal] And what are the other organic weed killers? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 5:52 AM Subject: Re: [Fwd: Roundup withdrawal] > In a message dated 1/27/00 7:35:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, rbfarr@erols.com > writes: > > << There are three possible organic weedkillers that I know of and use > myself where necessary :- > > 1) Neat vinegar sprayed, watered or painted over the foliage on a hot > sunny day. >> > > Sounds interesting but what is "neat" vinegar? > > Dan Lynch, Long Mountain Vineyard > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Thu Jan 27 23:24:08 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA17313 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:24:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09191; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:17:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08810 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.69] (pm3shep4-163-176.intrepid.net [209.190.163.176]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA16980 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:17:46 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:11:59 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: [Fwd: Horn Clay Part 1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id XAA08812 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3342 Message-ID: <38907F50.4769@interx.net> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:24:33 +0000 From: Greg Willis X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Horn Clay Part 1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Listers, Rather than argue whether or not Horn Clay is a "real" biodynamic preparation, it would seem to me to be far better to to simply present the thinking that went into the creation of Horn Clay. Many people around the world, such as Hugh Lovel, Peter Proctor, Michael Smith, Michael Topolos, Darek Trowbridge, Wells Wagner, Ralph Riva, Woody Wodraska, Cheryl Kemp (I think) and Hugh Courtney to name a few, are making and/or using it now with great success. So I have excerpted part of my upcoming book on Horn Clay for you to read should you be so inclined. This is Part 1, other parts to follow in sequence. The purpose of this posting is to give you the logic and reasoning that went into the creation of Horn Clay. Let me preface this by saying that I heard about Horn Clay sometime around 1990 at a BDANC meeting. A German fellow said that Steiner indicated that Horn Clay should be used but nobody had figured out how to make it. It took me almost 5 years of research to figure it out and another 3 years of working with it before I made my methods public on BDNOW and other outlets. We have now worked with it for five years and find that our success with Horn Clay as part of a total BD program is nothing short of astonishing. We can now, in concert with very intensive and concentrated sequential programs, achieve in only one year what it takes to accomplish in 3 years using traditional biodynamic methods. Hugh Lovel has attested to that. To paraphrase Steiner, others may wish to spend years testing Horn Clay to their own satisfaction but I have looked into it and I know it works. Some of you may not agree with my terms or wording. If they are confusing to you, I will be happy to clarify what I mean. However, I will not enter into a debate on the matter. I am sure Hugh Lovel would be willing to take up that effort should it be necessary. I put this on the List in parts for two reasons. First, the book that I have written is about 100 pages long, too much for posting. Secondly, one needs to consider Horn Clay carefully so I am only giving part at a time so you have a chance to mull it over a bit. (I must confess that this is still in the final editing stage so you may pick up on some things that need improvement. It is also somewhat abbreviated for publishing on the list.) So, you decide: Is Horn Clay a "real" biodynamic preparation or not. Here goes: **************** INTRODUCTION Much has been discussed about Horn Clay since the beginning of biodynamic agriculture. Steiner referred to the importance of clay in his lectures on agriculture. Martin W. Pfeiffer commented on it in his booklet “The Agricultural Individuality, A Picture Of The Human Being”. p. 47 “To these eight [biodynamic] preparations, which have been explained in detail with regard to their making as well as to their applications, a further indication by Dr. Steiner suggests a possible ninth preparation, clay. ‘That which pours down from the cosmos is caught up beneath the surface must be able to pour upward again. And for this purpose is the clayey substance in the earth.’ For soils which do not have this possibility of streaming upward, ‘it is well to add a dose of clay to the soil.’” WHY MAKE HORN CLAY? Why make Horn Clay? Because it will facilitate the movement of cosmic forces between silica and calcium, enlivening the natural clay finally bringing out the threefold nature of silica-clay-calcium, also finally bringing the three into balance. Horn Clay is very important to the success of the application of the preparations. Without the Horn Clay, it is simply not possible for the biodynamic system of preparations to reach its fullest potential. The misuse or lack of use of Horn Clay over the years since the original lectures has had a very limiting effect on the progress of biodynamics. Clay works to connect the concepts in the human mind just as it works to connect the effects of silica and clay. Those who do not use it do not benefit from the complete understanding of the what the Universe has to offer. So the lack of use of clay, or Horn Clay, has a limiting effect on the benefits and the understanding of the basic system of biodynamic agriculture. Clay plays the part of the mediator, in a sense, like water. It acts to connect the various disparate elements of Nature into a coherent whole. Without the action and activity of clay to hold it together, it is not possible for the various elements to carry out their respective duties. How does this come about? Let us look at clay more closely. You will notice that it has a very strong positive and negative bonding properties. These properties are representative of the nature of clay. It holds together or bonds the various elements so that they can work together. It is, in a very real sense, the glue that binds our soil together. Without this glue, it is not possible for soil to gain the kind of structure, both physical and etheric, necessary for a plant to properly exist. This structure, emblematic of the structure of the Universe, is what holds soils together. So we see that the nature of clay is that is binds and connects, both at once. These physical realities or observations work exactly in the same manner in the astral and etheric worlds. All work together. Why is it important to make Horn Clay? This too is very much like the other remedies. It is important to at once conserve and utilize the homeopathic properties of the clay. Bentonite clay is more than adequate to do the job. Other local clays work very well too. The Horn Clay works homeopathically as do the others. By placing the clay in the soil as you would Horn Quartz, you are greatly increasing its power to radiate its spiritual properties over large areas. So it is at once more efficient and more beneficial for all the same reasons the silica and cow manure are placed in the horn first. The presence of Horn Clay in a field will bring together or bind the various disparate elements that you are applying. This is the genius of God. By further preparing Horn Clay as you would BD 500 and BD 501, you are creating a sympathetic presence in the field as well. THE THREEFOLD NATURE OF CALCIUM, CLAY AND SILICA Let us look at the three elements (calcium - clay - silica) and compounds not from the threefold point of view, but from a twofold point of view. When we have only calcium (Horn Manure) and silica (Horn Quartz) and rely on the presence of clay in the field, we have no real activity in mediating the two. The twofold nature relates specifically to the polarity between the two. We have heard biodynamics teachers talk endlessly about the polarity (which is in reality the twofold nature) of both calcium and silica. Calcium low and fat, silica tall and thin. Calcium desiring everything, silica above it all, desiring nothing. But how do you get the two to relate and work together. After all, the Universe is built on harmony and balance. How can two forces which are such polar opposites be in balance? It is, in reality, not possible. And for all these years, BD teachers danced around this problem, not understanding nor solving it. Polarity in a field releases the polar opposite forces in the field. So we see an explosion of growth and an explosion of energy - both. While this is exciting, it is not healthy for the field, for the plants and animals and most importantly from a human’s point of view, not healthy for the food. So, we can say, farmers have been using this for 75 years and they get better crops with only 500 and 501 than they do with other methods. This is true. But let us examine why and what a difference Horn Clay can make. They get, through the application of Horn Manure and Horn Quartz a release of these forces in the field. Consider that modern agriculture ties up and binds up these formative and regenerative forces, to say nothing of the spiritual forces it ties up (Mana, Prana, Life Force Energy, Chi, etc.) so completely that ANY Life Force Energy that could be released in the field would show as an improvement in the plants. Further, conventional farming techniques do not take into account the Devas and Nature Spirits and their essential work. Further still, conventional agriculture does not take into account the other 7 Realms and Dominions that exist simultaneously with the earth plane. These are vital considerations. When one applies carefully prepared 500 and 501, it releases these formative and regenerative forces in a field so one cannot help but see improvement. But not the kind that is possible with the inclusion of Horn Clay. Now, with Horn Clay, we have the establishment of the THREEFOLD nature of calcium - silica - clay. Like a three legged stool, this brings stability to the field and, at the same time, brings the archetype to the field. This does not happen when one uses only 500 and 501. Let us pause for a minute and consider this as well: Even if one uses 500, 501 and Horn Clay but does not use the other biodynamic preparations, one is still really behind the eight ball. A field will never reach its fullest potential and archetypal form without using ALL the preps. Now, an important mention about the essential use of Horn Clay and the new millennium. This new century will be characterized by a definite increase in the complexity and nature of the matrix surrounding the Earth. This is essential for the growth of the Earth soul and for all souls who want to come here to learn the lessons of the Earth existence. This matrix is characterized by balance and harmony and anything that is outside of that form will not survive here during this period of peace and harmony. That is why it is essential to use Horn Clay because it completes the balancing process and harmony by mediating between calcium and silica. Also, it is essential the clay be prepared in a horn exactly like manure and quartz. This brings the clay to the same state of astral - etheric balance necessary to do its job. The amount of clay in a field has NO RELATIONSHIP to the use or desirability or effectiveness of Horn Clay. Horn Clay should be used regardless of the clay content of the soil. There is no relationship between the two. Now, the question arises, will Horn Clay increase the amount of clay in the soil, or decrease it? No. Not in the sense that some seem to see. What Horn Clay does, again, is create an archetype in the field that allows the soil to grow into, not the other way around. This process can take some great amount of time, or it can happen quickly, depending on the history of the area and the thinking of the farmer. The addition of BD compost has a definite effect on this balance as well. Both will bring the field into its archetypal form of a perfect balance between silt, clay, sand and humus. Clay also brings out the life force energy in BD 500 and BD 501 and this adds to the balance but its role is to bring the two together which creates the balance, not make the balance itself. This is a crucial and essential distinction between the two concepts. NEXT: THE COSMIC RELATIONSHIPS OF CLAY ©2000 Greg Willis and Agri-Synthesis, Inc. -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 28 07:53:21 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA21603 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:53:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA04852; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:47:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA04519 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:41:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-92.s92.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.92] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12EAnu-00072c-00; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:47:10 -0500 Message-ID: <38919025.B484D390@erols.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:48:37 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "BD Now! Listserve" Subject: No-Till Question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3343 Mornin'. Allan Balliet sent me a URL (www.ext.vt.edu - Virginia Tech's site) which has info on no-tilling brocolli (do a search on, "Broccoli"). The pub. talks about rolling to kill the cover crop (something Allan, Guillermo and I saw in practice at Kerry Sullivan's CSA in Kimberton, PA). I'm wondering about the roller - what is it exactly? Who has had experience with using this method - and how has it worked? Could I use my truck to roll the rows, or would a truck be way too heavy (I expect it would)? And, is there a way to do this by hand, without purchasing some expensive equipment? Thanks in advance - Robert. P.S. - Also curious about what you folks use for a good cover crop mix. Is that mix good for all situations? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 28 10:02:46 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23419 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:02:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15097; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:56:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.bulkley.net (popper1.vphos.net [207.102.129.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14693 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:51:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from cybernet ([204.244.19.73]) by popper1.vphos.net ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:57:39 -0800 Message-ID: <002601bf69a0$41dc3e60$4913f4cc@bulkley.net> From: "J&J Clifford" To: References: <200001280056.SAA02955@portal.txcyber.com> Subject: Re: Fwd: Ted's opinions -Reply (well, why not?) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:59:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3344 Briefly the status quo is not worth labeling. Assume the least value in the generic and accent the idea that eating cheap food is not a very bright thing to do. Being able to market a product as more wholesome is a position of advantage and would we not in complete honesty require some food now found on store shelves to be labeled toxic. That little sticker on the fruit we all see could well be an indicator of pride akin to an artists signature. Regards Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 4:53 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: Ted's opinions -Reply (well, why not?) > As usual, I can't find the original quote that inspired me to write. > But, what is so wrong with asking / demanding that 'truth in > advertising' be expanded to the food that the general populace > buys? > If they don't have to label irradiated foods, if they don't have to mark > the meat that has had steroids, antibiotics, and fed on fertilized, > pesticide-laden forages, well, why not? Why isn't the grass roots > and organic fronts more concerned about the ever-tightening > stringency laws governing their certification programs, yet, anyone > can grow ANYTHING and sell it and never have to produce what > was used to create it. > No, I didn't just wake up to this new world, I just am voicing an old > old wonder. > Granted, I agree, the wheat fields, the corn fields, the mega > livestock commissions, all feed the nation probably 1000xxx more > than the people who seek out organic certification systems. (And, > even the organic buyers may not be quite ready for biodynamic > foodstuffs.) I don't believe I suggested that end. There is still that > (chemical) choice, even if everything were labeled equally. But, an > equal system is a nice dream to pursue! Let me dream it for awhile > longer, even if you suggest all the while for me to 'get real'. > Martha, (Texas) > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 28 10:17:14 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23715 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:17:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16334; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:11:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15859 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:05:43 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp204.cy-net.net [208.21.195.13]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17857 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:11:40 -0600 Message-Id: <200001281511.JAA17857@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:08:10 -0600 Subject: Re: Fwd: Ted's opinions -Reply (well, why not?) Priority: normal In-reply-to: <002601bf69a0$41dc3e60$4913f4cc@bulkley.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3345 If everything wore ingredients lists, there wouldn't be enough organic growers in the world to keep up with the demand. Maybe that's why no one has pushed for it. Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 28 10:36:19 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24260 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:36:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18196; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:30:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (popper1.vphos.net [207.102.129.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17833 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:26:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.76]) by popper1.vphos.net ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:32:13 -0800 Message-ID: <000201bf69a4$d163e0c0$4ccb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <000801bf693b$d0edde20$a69dafc7@333> Subject: Coffee for Seeds? Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:08:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3346 Michael: Time again for Blue Mtn. Trade for seeds or tinctures? Woody From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 28 12:03:43 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26229 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:03:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28250; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:57:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27850 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:54:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [38.28.129.90] (ip90.portland11.or.pub-ip.psi.net [38.28.129.90]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16553 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:00:27 -0800 (PST) User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:56:46 -0800 Subject: Re: Ted's opinions -Reply From: Ernest Kuntze To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3347 ??????????????????????????????=?t=?p=?8??&F?G=?p?????P????l??1?0??l?hJH Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/27/00 7:44 AM, Allan Balliett at igg@igg.com wrote: >> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:42:54 -0500 >> From: Ted Rogers >> To: flylo@txcyber.com >> Cc: igg@igg.com >> Subject: Ted's opinions -Reply >> >> Allan, please post: >> >> Martha, >> Alas, that is the very reason that I do not want to get into such a >> discussion; so long as you lean on, harp on, depend on negatives to >> define your methodology/philosophy then you are going to draw negative >> energy... To me and a few of the other surviving old-timers the poetry of >> the organic method and if you can cop to it certainly the BD method was >> and is that if you do it right you don't need the biocides(very often) and >> most of the fertilizers ever. >> >> So far as complaining about the conventional practitioners not having to >> document anything, get real, the rigor of agricultural and environmental >> regulation is overwhelming (I didn't say effective). You also need to >> remember that, those dirty old conventional farmers and that nasty old >> food processing and distribution system feed one hell of a lot more >> people than the tiny (that is tiny physically, mentally, and emotionally) >> organic industry ever will. >> >> Best, >> >> Ted IT' tiny only when you take "GOD" and the rest of the Universe out of the equation!!!! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 28 12:08:14 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26339 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:08:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28749; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28513 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:59:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.50.58.47] (A16.reach.net [204.50.58.47]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA17235 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:07:02 -0500 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:07:02 -0500 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Thun & Calendars... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3348 Here's one for Malcolm Gardiner and others able to sort through everything: First, the various calendars. The Stella Natura (and I imagine the Thun - I'm still waiting for mine) use different ways of calculating where the moon is each day...I guess because of some combination of using a heliocentric calculation and actual sidreal motion, rather than theoretic, equidistant division. A commercial, off the shelf (and obviously popular) book like Llewellyn's Moon Sign book uses a differen calculation, claiming "Dr. Timmins also observed that there have been similar tests that did not indicate results favourable to the Moon planting theroy. As a scientist, he asked why one set of experiments indicated a positive verificaton of Moon planting, and others did not. He checked these other tests and found that the experimenters had not followed the geocentric system for dtermining the moon sign positions, but the heliocentric. When the times use in the other tests were converted tothe geocentric system, the dates chosen often were found to be in barren, rather than fertile, signs. Without going into a technical explantation, it is sufficient to point out that geocentric and heliocentric positions often vary by as much as four days." Gardening by the Moon 2000, page 296. Anyways, can someone explain the differences? And possibly explain how both systems can claim great success, when their dates don't jive at all? I find it extremely frustrating, and am tempted to chuck it all and start from scratch, keeping my own records and watching the years fly past doing so! It seems silly to sqander millenia of acquired human wisdom...but when there is no agreement on what that wisdom might be, nullifies it. * Malcolm, you mentioned: > It should be noted in passing that Kollerstrom, while defending >Thun's basic theory, has also argued (e.g., Science Forum #2) that Thun's >theory would better fit at least his own experimental results when he uses >the Babylonian equal division sidereal zodiac (revived by Powell and >Treadgold), instead of the unequal division sidereal zodiac from Dornach >that Thun currently uses. Could you elaborate? I mean, take a beginner through this? Regards, Geoff Heinricks Prince Edward County, Ontario From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 28 12:09:18 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26372 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:09:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28910; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:03:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28558 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:00:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.50.58.47] (A16.reach.net [204.50.58.47]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA17302 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:07:24 -0500 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:07:24 -0500 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Return to Horsetail... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3349 In late August and early September Glen Atkinson, Malcolm Gardiner, Guillermo Romero, Allan Balliett, Cheryl Kemp, Andrew the agdoc, myself and others had an interesting thread going on horsetail or 508. There are a few things I'd like to return to: 1) Horsetail composition: * Pheiffer in Weeds and what they tell says Horsetail is about 80% silica. * Joly in Wines from Sky to Earth says that the ash of Horsetail is over 90% silica. * Koepf in The Biodynamic Farm says the anti-fungal action comes from the 'Siliceous quality of horsetail.' * In the previous thread, Malcolm wrote: >>Interestingly enough, Equisetum arvense does _not_ have as much silica as >>most other common horsetails, but it has much more _sulfate_. And it is the >>sulfur that relates E. arvense to the kidneys, as Steiner mentions in lec. 6 >>of the Agriculture Course. Sooo...is there any new consensus on the composition? From a winegrowing perspective, I know of some university studies that show silica has an effect on powdery mildew infections. Of course, sulphur is the old stand-by...so neither of these surprise me as possible factors in Horsetail's efficacy. But it'd be nice to know which, or both, is there. How Horsetail works: In part, the sulphur and/or silica in understanding this is mentioned above. * Pfeiffer would seem to think so, cited above, that it is silica. * Gerbert Grohmann, in THe Plant vol. 1 mentioms silica...but it also seems to me that he might be taken to imply that the properties of Horesetail as an anti-fungal might come from 1) its sort of shared fungal/fern origins during the reproductive stalk, set against its 'light' incarnation in the later green, siliceous stalk [sort of a homeopathic function when applied - a 'know your enemy' ability], and, 2) the 'stem' function of horsetail's structure...in a way 'lifting' the fungus off the host leaf (or new earth), and breaking the connection by providing the missing structure (stem) to the fungus. - Are these implications I've drawn from Grohmann WAY off base? What counts as Horsetail: There seems to be some discussion about what species of horsetail should be used. * Guillermo apparently uses Giant Horsetail, and it is effective. * Allan says he's used the varieties that have black rings at the sheath between needles and stem to good effect. * I, like Allan, have too, though it does smell different when brewing than the stuff I've bought from health food stores. * Malcolm seems to take the view, as does Pfeiffer, that the black-ringed varieties are ineffective as anti-fungals. Any attempts to unravel this one? A lot to chew on (I hope...and I hope people will...It's an important part of my winter studying). Cheers, Geoff Heinricks Prince Edward County, Ontario From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 28 12:10:28 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26399 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:10:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29066; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:04:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28586 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:00:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.50.58.47] (A16.reach.net [204.50.58.47]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA17338 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:07:40 -0500 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:07:40 -0500 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Horsetail II Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3350 Malcolm, you mentioned Lilly Kolisko's work on 508 last year...and I saw in Hugh Courtenay's article on Allan's website (Sequential Spraying Illusion, Remarkable Coincidence, or Reality) that he mentions her work, and her Agriculture of Tomorrow passages on 508. I can't find the book listed in the various BD book catalogues I have, nor can my favourite bookstores find it in print. Is it available? If not, could someone summarize her points regarding horsetail - or even arrange with me off-line to send me a photocopy of the relative pages? Thanks, Geoff Heinricks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 28 12:11:35 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26420 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:11:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29197; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:05:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28618 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:00:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.50.58.47] (A16.reach.net [204.50.58.47]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA17368 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:07:54 -0500 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:07:54 -0500 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Sensitive Chrystallization... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3351 Has anyone read Pfeiffer's book (or booklet rather) on Sensitive Chrystallization? Is it a useful publication? I was rather intrigued by the photos in Nicholas Joly's book, and have been mulling over whether I should get it as part of my winter reading. Cheers, Geoff Heinricks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 28 12:12:42 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26445 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:12:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29339; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:06:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28629 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:00:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.50.58.47] (A16.reach.net [204.50.58.47]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA17391 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:08:09 -0500 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:08:09 -0500 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Re: Mechanical cultivators Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3352 Guillermo: >Eugene Canales from Ferrari said that you can attach a small spader to the >BCS' pto, is this correct ?, Can you get more on this from this fellow? Model etc? This is the first I've heard of this possibility. Cheers, Geoff Heinricks Prince Edward County, Ontario From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 28 13:58:30 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28925 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:58:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12172; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:52:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from acc.haverford.edu (acc.haverford.edu [165.82.1.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11608 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:47:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [165.82.19.116] (s116.magill.haverford.edu [165.82.19.116]) by acc.haverford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13317 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:47:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:52:45 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Bruce Bumbarger Subject: Re: Mechanical cultivators Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3353 Geoff: Eugene can be reached at (530)846-6401. Very helpful fellow. Bruce >Guillermo: > >>Eugene Canales from Ferrari said that you can attach a small spader to the >>BCS' pto, is this correct ?, > >Can you get more on this from this fellow? Model etc? This is the first >I've heard of this possibility. > >Cheers, >Geoff Heinricks >Prince Edward County, Ontario From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 28 15:31:57 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01478 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:31:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22173; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:24:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21921 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:22:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.118] (r-66.51.alltel.net [166.102.66.51]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id OAA17037 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:27:55 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:23:22 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3354 Dear Goeff, First of all, let us not be so sloppy as to think of horsetail as anti-fungal. It is not. Rather it holds plants back from filling out (in the horizontal, lime direction) too lushly and weakly especially when the weather is wet. This makes plants resistant to fungal infection. So horsetail's function is basically to harden the plant, and to restrict weak overgrowth. I know this may seem a fine distinction, but try giving it thought. And consider this. You won't get a fat grape without having the nourishing, lime nature carried up into the fruit. However, that fat grape will rot instead of ripen unless the silica nature is strong enough. Especially under wet conditions--including irrigation--it makes good sense to bolster this silica nature with some horsetail. As to why Steiner recommended the Arvense despite the fact that other horsetails contained higher proportions of silica? If one realizes that the sulfur gesture shows itself in plants by the fine division of deeply cut leaves--yarrow being the best example, and if one realizes that in choosing the various preparation plants Steiner selected those with as deeply and finely cut leaves as possible, then the choice of the Arvense is consistent. The Arvense is the most finely divided horsetail. My experience is all the horsetails work well enough, but Steiner really liked the sulfur gesture expressed in the Arvense. Why did Steiner favor this sulfur gesture? Try pp 46-48 Creeger/Gardner translation of Agriculture. Here's a brief example: "A hidden sculptor is at work in carbon, and this hidden artist makes use of sulfur when it builds up the many different forms that have to be built up in nature. To look at carbon in nature in the right way, we must see how the spirit-activity of the universe works as a sculptor, moisteening its fingers with sulfur, so to speak, and how with carbon's help it builds up not only the more static forms of plants, but also the ever-changing human form." >In late August and early September Glen Atkinson, Malcolm Gardiner, >Guillermo Romero, Allan Balliett, Cheryl Kemp, Andrew the agdoc, myself and >others had an interesting thread going on horsetail or 508. There are a few >things I'd like to return to: > >1) Horsetail composition: > >* Pheiffer in Weeds and what they tell says Horsetail is about 80% silica. > >* Joly in Wines from Sky to Earth says that the ash of Horsetail is over >90% silica. > >* Koepf in The Biodynamic Farm says the anti-fungal action comes from the >'Siliceous quality of horsetail.' > >* In the previous thread, Malcolm wrote: >>>Interestingly enough, Equisetum arvense does _not_ have as much silica as >>>most other common horsetails, but it has much more _sulfate_. And it is the >>>sulfur that relates E. arvense to the kidneys, as Steiner mentions in lec. 6 >>>of the Agriculture Course. > >Sooo...is there any new consensus on the composition? From a winegrowing >perspective, I know of some university studies that show silica has an >effect on powdery mildew infections. Of course, sulphur is the old >stand-by...so neither of these surprise me as possible factors in >Horsetail's efficacy. But it'd be nice to know which, or both, is there. > >How Horsetail works: > >In part, the sulphur and/or silica in understanding this is mentioned above. > >* Pfeiffer would seem to think so, cited above, that it is silica. > >* Gerbert Grohmann, in THe Plant vol. 1 mentioms silica...but it also seems >to me that he might be taken to imply that the properties of Horesetail as >an anti-fungal might come from 1) its sort of shared fungal/fern origins >during the reproductive stalk, set against its 'light' incarnation in the >later green, siliceous stalk [sort of a homeopathic function when applied - >a 'know your enemy' ability], and, 2) the 'stem' function of horsetail's >structure...in a way 'lifting' the fungus off the host leaf (or new earth), >and breaking the connection by providing the missing structure (stem) to >the fungus. > >- Are these implications I've drawn from Grohmann WAY off base? > >What counts as Horsetail: > >There seems to be some discussion about what species of horsetail should be >used. > >* Guillermo apparently uses Giant Horsetail, and it is effective. > >* Allan says he's used the varieties that have black rings at the sheath >between needles and stem to good effect. > >* I, like Allan, have too, though it does smell different when brewing than >the stuff I've bought from health food stores. > >* Malcolm seems to take the view, as does Pfeiffer, that the black-ringed >varieties are ineffective as anti-fungals. > >Any attempts to unravel this one? > >A lot to chew on (I hope...and I hope people will...It's an important part >of my winter studying). > >Cheers, >Geoff Heinricks >Prince Edward County, Ontario From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 28 16:35:18 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03203 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:35:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28204; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.igrin.co.nz (mail.igrin.co.nz [202.49.244.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28051 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:21:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from computer (whan-073.igrin.co.nz [202.49.246.173]) by mail.igrin.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15584 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:53:15 +1300 Message-ID: <002001bf69d5$9c69e780$adf631ca@computer> From: "Gareth and Yvonne Bodle" To: Subject: Re: Sensitive Chrystallization... Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:21:15 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3355 Yes, we were looking ate the same pictures this morning and thinking aboiut it all the more too Gareth -----Original Message----- From: Geoff Heinricks To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Saturday, 29 January 2000 05:39 AM Subject: Sensitive Chrystallization... > >Has anyone read Pfeiffer's book (or booklet rather) on Sensitive >Chrystallization? Is it a useful publication? I was rather intrigued by the >photos in Nicholas Joly's book, and have been mulling over whether I should >get it as part of my winter reading. > >Cheers, >Geoff Heinricks > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 28 18:20:49 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04865 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:20:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09269; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08827 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:08:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (cust7.nrvmax1.tor1.netrover.com [205.209.21.7]) by river.netrover.com (8.9.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA25016 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:14:25 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-From: villager@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: Re: Sensitive Chrystallization... Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:16:46 -0500 Message-ID: <01bf69e5$bf9b0c60$0715d1cd@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3356 Geoff: I remember reading most of it about 30 yrs. ago and dabbling a bit. Also, 3 years ago, some of us locally had the pleasure of a one day SC seminar- using silver nitrate and the filters- with Dr. Johanna Malouk who has taught at Guelph University and elsewhere[ fascinating background]. [Typically, some of us were very excited about it ,and "resolved" to buy bulk supplies from a photographic supplier and begin some serious research/documentation, etc. but the demands of the gardening in our respective situations did not allow this yet.] She showed us part of her catalogue of examples of herbs in their various radiant expressions, and others of a known inferior source/treatment. She will likely be present again at guelph this weekend. Maybe she has finished her illustrated book of herbs by now. regards,........... manfred palmer -----Original Message----- From: Geoff Heinricks To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, January 28, 2000 12:12 PM Subject: Sensitive Chrystallization... > >Has anyone read Pfeiffer's book (or booklet rather) on Sensitive >Chrystallization? Is it a useful publication? I was rather intrigued by the >photos in Nicholas Joly's book, and have been mulling over whether I should >get it as part of my winter reading. > >Cheers, >Geoff Heinricks > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 28 20:15:34 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06218 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:15:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA19142; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:07:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18793 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:03:18 -0500 (EST) From: CWShade@aol.com Received: from CWShade@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.8.) id h.7a.e78bf4 (4243) for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:08:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7a.e78bf4.25c39793@aol.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:08:35 EST Subject: Re: Sensitive Chrystallization... To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3357 Yes, Sensitive Crystallization (and Chromatography Applied to Quality Testing) are very good books and will help you to think about things more subtle. However, the usual expectation is to read the book, get some supplies and understand it all. Be forewarned - to really be able to see and understand the patterns requires serious time and obsession, not to mention massive replication. That being said, read it. If you do try some crystallization, it was suggested to me by Harvey Lisle that CuSO(4) would work better than CuCl for portraying the subtle interplay. Take Care, Chris Shade From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 28 21:51:01 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA07540 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:51:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26415; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:43:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from penguin.reach.net (penguin.reach.net [204.50.58.252]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA26320 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.50.58.47] (A24.reach.net [204.50.58.55]) by penguin.reach.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA21265 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:49:34 -0500 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:49:34 -0500 X-Envelope-From: ghein@reach.net X-Envelope-To: X-Sender: ghein@mail.reach.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: ghein@reach.net (Geoff Heinricks) Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3358 >Dear Goeff, > >First of all, let us not be so sloppy as to think of horsetail as >anti-fungal. It is not. Rather it holds plants back from filling out (in >the horizontal, lime direction) too lushly and weakly especially when the >weather is wet. This makes plants resistant to fungal infection. So >horsetail's function is basically to harden the plant, and to restrict weak >overgrowth. I know this may seem a fine distinction, but try giving it >thought. > >And consider this. You won't get a fat grape without having the nourishing, >lime nature carried up into the fruit. However, that fat grape will rot >instead of ripen unless the silica nature is strong enough. Especially >under wet conditions--including irrigation--it makes good sense to bolster >this silica nature with some horsetail. and more of note... Thanks Hugh (and to the others who've popped in on the Sensitive Chrystallization thread!). That's why I was throwing up so many disconnected, hazy thoughts/summaries on horsetail...to get such a different and clarifying take on it. Oh...I don't necessarily strive after 'fat' grapes Hugh...just healthy, small berried pinot noir. I did a lot of horsetail tea sprays this year, about 5 to 6 weeks before theoretical harvest. Niagara had a LOT of problem with breakdown on their pinot noir this fall. My pinot fruit was extremely healthy...I think my wife and I had maybe two or three bunches each in total (5 or 6) that needed a bit of excising to remove berries that had failed, and started (and spread) rot. So your explanation of horsetail and its silica/sulphur construct reigning in the natural exuberance of the fruit is noted. Like I said, I posted this to find out why it works. I saw it work...but I can't tell people "just do it" without being able to understand how or why. The anti-fungal model is the only one before BDnow! that I had to work on, and I apologize if the ways I phrase or pose things is irksome...it's the paradigm I'm trying to work OUT OF...not necessarily file everything into. CHeers (and keep the correctives flowing Hugh), Geoff Heinricks From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Fri Jan 28 22:23:49 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA07936 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:23:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29522; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:16:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.68]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA29413 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:14:48 -0500 (EST) From: Andyschad@aol.com Received: from Andyschad@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.8.) id h.cc.e9ce25 (4410) for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:19:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:19:57 EST Subject: Re: Fractals To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 47 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3359 Dear Hugh Lovel, This is very helpful. Thanks for helping me to understand. I have heard that there is some concern about using some types of substances in the field broadcasters. When the intention is to harm/hinder. Are there then negative fractals, corrupted life forms? Is the function of the field broadcaster to transmit energies to bolster exsisting (fractal) forms or establish spiritual achitypal formative forces which may then act as a sense organ for cosmic/earthly forces? This is all very interesting; I wish I could get more of a feel for this. Many thanks Andreas From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 29 05:17:32 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA11641 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 05:17:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA01296; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 05:09:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA01206 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 05:08:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.118] (r-66.86.alltel.net [166.102.66.86]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id EAA15719 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 04:14:19 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <388DCC63.1D4065F9@earthlink.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 05:23:23 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Developing the abilities of the mind's eye Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3360 Dear Jenni and List, Ah, yes! Training the mind's eye! Maybe the day will come, but biofeedback techniques for expanding consciousness are not a part of school cirricula or anything of the sort. Maybe in some places in the far east they might be. That leaves people in places like the US, what? Drugs? Cults? There's a lot of invalidation placed on using our so-called sixth sense. While children should be given guidance and training from childhood on, instead these faculties are suppressed. The kind of biofeedback training I was talking about is definitely not self-help. It was intensive and very powerful, but if you wanted its benefits you had to pay for equipment and someone who know how to use it. Back 25 years ago rates started at $50/hour, though we would do demonstration sessions at shows and fairs for just a few bucks. What's far more available to the individual in our current society is dowsing. Pendulums, dowsing rods, rubbing plates, muscle testing--all are biofeedback techniques. I can think of several dowsers who have done so much dowsing that they are remarkably good at using their ESP even without their dowsing tools. One of the virtues of learning dowsing is it starts one off with very simple yes/no questions and what one learns above all is to tune in to the truth without reference to hopes and fears and other illusory junk. One finds what one seeks, and asking the appropriate question is just as important as tuning in to an accurate answer. Dowsing trains one in both. It is a very good discipline. It helps to practice dowsing with a friend or friends, though it is not essential. For a dowsing chapter near you contact the American Dowser' Association, Danville, VT 05828-0024. A great dowsing teacher who has appeared at several biodynamic conferences is Joey Korn of Augusta, Georgia. His e-mail is: dowser@mindspring.com There are numerous ways to practice and improve one's extra sense abilities. Chanting Sanskrit Mantras is one of the most powerful. Sanskrit is an energy based language, with the significances defined out of what the sounds do to one's energy fields. This is another self-help path. And there are many others. Try contacting: The Relaxation Company, P. O. Box 305, Roslyn, NY 11576, 1-800-788-6670 for one of their catalogs. I hope this helps everyone. Best, Hugh Lovel Jenni writes: >Hi Hugh, >I am very interested in hearing more of what you have to say regarding >developing the abilities of the mind's eye. I too, had biofeedback training, >along with relaxation techniques to deal with pain that resulted from an auto >accident. It became obvious to me at some point along the way, that something >unusual was occurring, besides pain control. I was receiving impressions of >things occurring, without using my "normal" faculties of perception, or use of >my hearing, sight, touch, etc. I was also receiving impressions of "energies" >that the average individual was unable to sense, see or hear. It was as if my >powers of intuition were thrown into "high gear", through the quieting of the >mind. Can you elaborate more on this topic? You have wonderful experience, as >well as professional knowledge of the effects on quieting the mind, e.g. >biofeedback. I feel this discussion is important to Biodynamics, because we >all work with these forces and energies, and many folks are unable to sense, >feel, or see the energies they work with. > >My husband and I are Biodynamic gardeners, who have not been as active the >past >few years, when I became very ill. I continue to enjoy your posts, and have >great admiration for your many contributions to Biodynamics. > >Jenni Muir > >Hugh Lovel wrote: > >> I assure you I can see these energies in my mind's eye when I spray preps. >> I think almost anyone would see these patterns if they were attuned >> sufficiently to noticing them. I had a LOT of biofeedback training, and I >> find this rather easy. But if you seek dilligently to develop this ability >> I feel confident you will find a way to achieve that goal, whether it is >> prayer, meditation, chanting Sanskrit mantras, dowsing, or whatever. Our >> nervous system IS an antenna that is attuned to and receives these >> impressions and a lot more besides. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 29 08:22:58 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA12752 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:22:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08949; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:05:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA08865 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:03:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-126.s126.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.126] helo=erols.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12EXcg-0001WI-00; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:09:07 -0500 Message-ID: <3892E6C9.A9C46EEE@erols.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:10:33 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3361 There's a great anti-fungal recipe - using baking soda - on the Va. Tech. extension page - www.ext.vt.edu. R. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 29 09:25:18 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13144 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:25:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11931; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:07:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11809 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:04:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.69] (pm3shep4-163-180.intrepid.net [209.190.163.180]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA11999 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:10:37 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:25:05 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3362 Hugh - I grew Fava beans here in WV this past spring. This are has high humidity and this farm has a high incidence of 'brown rot.' Favas do not grow well in this area and are a premium item for the DC farmer's markets. Everytime I've grown them, about the time that they reach full height, a 'brown rot' appears on the growing tip. If not arrested, it will 'melt' the entire plant rather rapidly. This year I will start the process earlier, of course, but in previous years, out of ignorance, I've sprayed fresh equisetum tea on the favas (on the fungus and on the plants.) I have NOT previously concentrated on applying it to the soil. My experience for the past two seasons has been that the fungus is arrested almost immediately and the plant resumes normal growth and will be productive. I've recommended equisetum sprays for 'brown rot' to neighbors and have found that some are already using it: fresh, and directly on the plants, with great success. (But none are doing favas :-) What do you make of this and how do you suggest approaching the fava bed this season to maximize the fruiting? Thanks for your tireless efforts on this list, Hugh Lovel! -Allan Balliett -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 29 09:31:23 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13184 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:31:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12180; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:11:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.66]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12029 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:09:26 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.8.) id h.ba.f8e7c7 (4214) for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:14:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:14:55 EST Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3363 In a message dated 1/29/00 8:13:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, rbfarr@erols.com writes: << There's a great anti-fungal recipe - using baking soda - on the Va. Tech. extension page - www.ext.vt.edu. R. >> Robert, can you be more specific on the URL. Tried above and even did a search on baking soda but no real success. I ewas tole that more on organic pest control will be in the next edition of the VA pest control guide. Dan From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 29 09:35:43 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13238 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:35:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12472; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12250 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:13:02 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.8.) id h.7a.ebdef0 (4214) for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:18:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7a.ebdef0.25c450b3@aol.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:18:27 EST Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3364 Good topic. What about the tradeoff of the fermented and the fresh Horsetail? I understand, fermented on soil and fresh on fruit/plant. Alan did you use fresh or fermented? Dan Lynch, Long Mountain Vineyard From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 29 11:14:11 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14023 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:14:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19415; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:06:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19022 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:01:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from m00q6c00 ([195.44.19.144]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:07:08 +0000 Message-ID: <003a01bf6a73$374f7240$90132cc3@m00q6c00> From: "TONY NELSON-SMITH" To: References: Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:02:34 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3365 O, wise men of BD! Geoff mentioned Grohmann's reference to the "fungal/fern" origins of horsetails and speculated that its effect on fungi might be somewhat homeopathic, i.e. setting like against like. Please forgive my conventional biological background showing again, but I don't see where the fungal bit comes in; I understood horsetails to be straight relatives of ferns. I realise that Geoff was shooting off various theories in order to get a response but this anyway sounds a bit like the old 'doctrine of signatures'. Is there any place for this in BD thinking? Tony N-S. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 29 12:11:04 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14698 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:11:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23422; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:03:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23093 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:58:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-169.s169.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.169] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12EbIN-0006cN-00; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:04:23 -0500 Message-ID: <38931DED.B7DACEA9@erols.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:05:49 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3366 Oops - sorry all. The baking soda recipe - recommended by lots of folks on the Organic Gardening discussion list - is at: www.attra.org/sitemap.html Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 29 13:04:13 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15392 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00110; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:56:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29563 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:53:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.118] (r-67.100.alltel.net [166.102.67.100]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id LAA17043 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:59:43 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:08:49 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3367 Equisetum is definitely the thing for the favas. But you'll get more abundance if you use horn clay. Hugh >Hugh - > >I grew Fava beans here in WV this past spring. This are has high >humidity and this farm has a high incidence of 'brown rot.' Favas do >not grow well in this area and are a premium item for the DC farmer's >markets. Everytime I've grown them, about the time that they reach >full height, a 'brown rot' appears on the growing tip. If not >arrested, it will 'melt' the entire plant rather rapidly. > >This year I will start the process earlier, of course, but in >previous years, out of ignorance, I've sprayed fresh equisetum tea on >the favas (on the fungus and on the plants.) I have NOT previously >concentrated on applying it to the soil. My experience for the past >two seasons has been that the fungus is arrested almost immediately >and the plant resumes normal growth and will be productive. I've >recommended equisetum sprays for 'brown rot' to neighbors and have >found that some are already using it: fresh, and directly on the >plants, with great success. (But none are doing favas :-) > >What do you make of this and how do you suggest approaching the fava >bed this season to maximize the fruiting? > >Thanks for your tireless efforts on this list, Hugh Lovel! > >-Allan Balliett > >-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 29 13:08:34 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15456 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:08:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00501; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:01:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (popper1.vphos.net [207.102.129.202]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00133 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:57:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.111]) by popper1.vphos.net ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:03:30 -0800 Message-ID: <00a901bf6a83$1e1c62a0$6fcb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:21:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3368 Allan: You'll find, I'm thinking, that BD#508, equisetum, is even more effective as a preventative of fungus problems if applied before discoloration, etc. appears; ounce of prevention and all that. Woody \ ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2000 5:25 AM Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... > Hugh - > > I grew Fava beans here in WV this past spring. This are has high > humidity and this farm has a high incidence of 'brown rot.' Favas do > not grow well in this area and are a premium item for the DC farmer's > markets. Everytime I've grown them, about the time that they reach > full height, a 'brown rot' appears on the growing tip. If not > arrested, it will 'melt' the entire plant rather rapidly. > > This year I will start the process earlier, of course, but in > previous years, out of ignorance, I've sprayed fresh equisetum tea on > the favas (on the fungus and on the plants.) I have NOT previously > concentrated on applying it to the soil. My experience for the past > two seasons has been that the fungus is arrested almost immediately > and the plant resumes normal growth and will be productive. I've > recommended equisetum sprays for 'brown rot' to neighbors and have > found that some are already using it: fresh, and directly on the > plants, with great success. (But none are doing favas :-) > > What do you make of this and how do you suggest approaching the fava > bed this season to maximize the fruiting? > > Thanks for your tireless efforts on this list, Hugh Lovel! > > -Allan Balliett > > -- > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 29 13:23:20 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15715 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:23:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01644; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-d07.mx.aol.com (imo-d07.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.39]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01430 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:13:46 -0500 (EST) From: LMvine@aol.com Received: from LMvine@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.8.) id h.ca.1105e8d (4265) for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:19:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:19:14 EST Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 45 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3369 In a message dated 1/29/00 1:07:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, woodyw@kootenay.com writes: << Allan: You'll find, I'm thinking, that BD#508, equisetum, is even more effective as a preventative of fungus problems if applied before discoloration, etc. appears; ounce of prevention and all that. Woody >> Anybody try 508 with baking soda and/or light oil? If so any synergism? By the way the complete URL for the baking soda article is http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/baksoda.html Dan Lynch, Long Mountain Vineyard From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 29 16:54:23 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18093 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:54:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20767; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:46:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from wwcst088.netaddress.usa.net (wwcst088.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.88]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20649 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:45:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 4496 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Jan 2000 21:51:57 -0000 Message-ID: <20000129215157.4495.qmail@wwcst088.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.88 by wwcst088 for [142.176.90.134] via web-mailer(M3.3.1.96) on Sat Jan 29 21:51:57 GMT 2000 Date: 29 Jan 00 13:51:57 PST From: cramer gefren To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: horsetail fresh & dried X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.3.1.96) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id QAA20654 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3370 I read in Koepf's Biodynamic Sprays that horsetail tea spray is made with the dried shoots - the fermented liquid is made with freshly picked plants, fermented 10 days. Probably the old hands know this but a newbie like myself missed the distinction between the dried & fresh preparations last year. Koepf wrote that the fermented version is used the same way as the tea. What would be the advantage to fermenting? Nancy Geffken ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 29 17:41:56 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18661 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:41:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25756; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:34:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from swva.net (ctc.swva.Net [165.166.123.19]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24980 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:29:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from 4l43e (CVA04-16.swva.net [206.99.244.236]) by swva.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19548 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:06:30 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.0.29.1.20000128123536.00a90100@swva.net> X-Sender: mgardner@swva.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.29 (Beta) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:36:47 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: malcolm ian gardner Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3371 Dear Geoff, This is my understanding of the rationale for using horsetail (Equisetum), based on Steiner's indications. Firstly, fungal problems arise when there is too much "dying life" (1), i.e., when the plant is not strong enough to maintain its own boundaries and keep its life forces from "leaking out". This occurs when the soil is too vitalized, which may happen when heavy rains are followed by a full moon (2). Such rains cause the soil humus to break down and release too much vitality (3), and something similar seems to happen with the protein of the plants growing under such conditions. Since one can't turn off the moon, or remove the soil water, Steiner suggests treating the soil water with dilute Equisetum arvense tea so as to make it less sensitive to the moon's influence (1). This is analogous to his remedy for treating an inflamed kidney (1 & 4); the farm is suffering from disturbed water excretion, from nephritis with proteinuria. Equisetum arvense, like all horsetails, contains a lot of silica, but this species contains relatively less silica and relatively more sulfur (5). The silica makes the soil water less sensitive (reduces inflammation in general (6)), and the sulfur strengthens the plant's protein formation (7) (and has a special affinity for the kidneys (8)). Ideally we would be able to read all this directly from the situation and from the morphology of Equisetum arvense (diagnosis and therapy). If we can recognize in a situation that "What wants to work upward out of the soil is kept from reaching the right height because of the overly strong lunar force" (1), then it is not hard to see in Equisetum's morphology just what is missing from this situation, namely, "verticality." There is probably no other genus of plants that has this quality to such an extreme degree. Within the genus E. hyemale, the classic scouring rush, is probably the most extreme (it is completely unbranched and has a very high silica content), but its green, vegetative stems are also terminated by its reproductive structures (brown little "cones"). E. arvense is more "pure" in this respect; its green shoots are somewhat branched, but they are not terminated by brown, non-photosynthetic structures; it puts its cones on separate brown shoots that appear in the spring before the green shoots do. Therefore, if one collects only the green shoots of E. arvense, one is getting as pure a dose of "green verticality" as is possible. (This greenness may also be a sign of the healthy, sulfur-based protein formation in this species, but I'm not absolutely sure about this.) Steiner was not trying to revive the old, superstition-ridden doctrine of signatures, but he was trying to establish a new and rational one! Respectfully yours, Malcolm Gardner Footnotes (1) 14 June 1924, Spiritual Foundations for the Renewal of Agriculture, p. 128. (2) 14 June 1924, SFRA, p. 126-128. (3) SFRA, p. 199. (4) 17 July 1924, What Can the Art of Healing Gain Through Spiritual Science? (5) H-J. Strueh, Tycho de Brahe Jahrbuch fuer Goetheanismus 1989. (6) Fundamentals of Therapy, chap. 14. (7) Fundamentals of Therapy, chap. 7. (8) 21 July 1924, What Can the Art of Healing Gain Through Spiritual Science? At 12:07 PM 1/28/00 -0500, Geoff wrote: >How Horsetail works: > >In part, the sulphur and/or silica in understanding this is mentioned above. > >* Pfeiffer would seem to think so, cited above, that it is silica. > >* Gerbert Grohmann, in THe Plant vol. 1 mentioms silica...but it also seems >to me that he might be taken to imply that the properties of Horesetail as >an anti-fungal might come from 1) its sort of shared fungal/fern origins >during the reproductive stalk, set against its 'light' incarnation in the >later green, siliceous stalk [sort of a homeopathic function when applied - >a 'know your enemy' ability], and, 2) the 'stem' function of horsetail's >structure...in a way 'lifting' the fungus off the host leaf (or new earth), >and breaking the connection by providing the missing structure (stem) to >the fungus. > >- Are these implications I've drawn from Grohmann WAY off base? From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 29 20:26:08 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20231 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:26:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA07387; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:12:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.13]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA07070 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:09:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from xtra.co.nz ([210.55.86.192]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <20000130011455.MGIZ3144.mta3-rme@xtra.co.nz> for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:14:55 +1300 Message-ID: <38938E1D.735795@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:04:29 +1300 From: eaccess Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNow Subject: Fungus - Mildew Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3372 Dear Allan and List Some references of interest to subject at hand. Dr. Geetha Singh published a paper in "The Hahnemannian Gleanings" April 1983 detailing the sensitivity of various plant leaf fungi to four homeopathic medicines, in various potencies. Bacillinum, Fagopyrum, Petroleum and Sepia were used at potencies of 6, 30, 200 and 1000 and gave various inhibitory effects on four keratinophilic fungi. In the best case, 95% inhibition. more recently According to a report in New Scientist, 14 October 1999, Brazilian Scientists have discovered that spraying plants with dilute cows milk (They didn't say if it was BD or not) stops powdery mildew in its tracks. Apparently, milk diluted with nine parts of water is just as effective. (Mentioned in " The Organic Way" issue 158, Winter 1999. p.3.) An article in "Biodynamics" Spring 1991 - number 178 - "Understanding the Calcium Process in Agriculture" by Walter Goldstein is very good quote. p, 34 " ....First, calcium appears to play a major role in stiffening the plant. It does this by forming calcium pectate, which hardens the cell walls. The presence of calcium also seems to thicken cell walls. These effects of calcium are important because they increase the resistance of the plant to fungal pests, Second, calcium oxalate crystals are excreted into vacuoles in plant cells as a precipitated waste product." The Oak-Bark preparation - based on Organic Calcium, and designed by Rudolf Steiner to work directly with the entities working through the formative forces of the Light Ether, has the effect as he says, when added to manure either liquid or solid, of "......lending it the forces, prophylactically to combat or to arrest any harmful plant diseases" JT From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sat Jan 29 21:52:15 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20966 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:52:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA13549; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:44:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA13329 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:41:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d153.infoserve.net [199.175.157.153]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id SAA09570 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:51:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000801bf6acd$3888e9c0$999dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Re: Coffee for Seeds? Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:53:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3373 Hi Woody, I have already ordered seeds from you for this year and I have enough Valerian now for 6 months! Can I send coffee anyway! Best regards, M. -----Original Message----- From: Woody Wodraska To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Friday, January 28, 2000 7:40 AM Subject: Coffee for Seeds? >Michael: > >Time again for Blue Mtn. Trade for seeds or tinctures? > >Woody > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 30 09:44:39 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25230 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:44:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23598; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:37:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA23506 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:35:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.135.83] (pm3bky1-135-83.intrepid.net [209.190.135.83]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA24823 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:41:56 -0500 Message-Id: <200001301441.JAA24823@loki.intrepid.net> Subject: Re: Developing the abilities of the mind's eye Date: Sun, 30 Jan 00 09:53:23 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jeanne Mozier To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3374 Hi folks You can take this or leave it. For more than two decades I've been doing lectures on trends projections based on astrological patterns. My current predictions include a collective nervous breakdown due to information overload with a preview period from August through October of this year and a two year cycle of this issue -- along with related issues of information wars and control of information -- extending from 2001-3. My silver lining to this cloud is both technological -- lots of job opportunities developing ways of sifting through and prioritizing all the information -- and evolutionary. The pattern of the stars mid-decade suggest to me a mutation in the human mind that will be a veritable explosion of psychic energy as the most efficient means of discerning the optimum path through the ocean of information. Stay tuned. Jeanne Mozier From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 30 10:27:25 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25515 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:27:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26283; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:20:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26103 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:17:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha15s220.d.shentel.net [204.111.54.220]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18143 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:26:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38945730.40131D7F@LightExpression.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:22:25 -0500 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Developing the abilities of the mind's eye References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3375 Greetings! please read on....... Hugh Lovel wrote: > Dear Jenni and List, > > Ah, yes! Training the mind's eye! > > What's far more available to the individual in our current society is > dowsing. Pendulums, dowsing rods, rubbing plates, muscle testing > One finds what one seeks, and asking the appropriate > question is just as important as tuning in to an accurate answer. Dowsing > trains one in both. It is a very good discipline. > Thanks Hugh for your offering. For those interested in pursuing their own quest at learning how to use dowsing for a number of applications (including working with one's individual higher consciousness -- or as a tool for acquiring information from various areas of consciousness) please feel free to visit our website and see the dowsing page at http://www.LightExpression.com/index2.htm -- and give it a shot. Best to All......... Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 30 14:47:14 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27813 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:47:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA17091; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:38:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA17041 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:38:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from micron - 63.23.31.205 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:43:47 -0800 Message-ID: <001701bf6b5a$87b24860$cd1f173f@micron> From: "Wells" To: References: Subject: Re: Horsetail II Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:45:13 -0800 Organization: Microsoft Corporation X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3376 Agriculture of Tomorrow is hard to find anywhere. I found a copy listed on www.bibliofind.com. I am happy to send a copy of pages ( about 3 or 4 ) if you don't find it elsewhere. ----- Original Message ----- From: Geoff Heinricks To: Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 9:07 AM Subject: Horsetail II > Malcolm, you mentioned Lilly Kolisko's work on 508 last year...and I saw in > Hugh Courtenay's article on Allan's website (Sequential Spraying Illusion, > Remarkable Coincidence, or Reality) that he mentions her work, and her > Agriculture of Tomorrow passages on 508. > > I can't find the book listed in the various BD book catalogues I have, nor > can my favourite bookstores find it in print. Is it available? If not, > could someone summarize her points regarding horsetail - or even arrange > with me off-line to send me a photocopy of the relative pages? > > Thanks, > Geoff Heinricks > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 30 17:30:01 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29584 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:30:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA02099; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:22:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01898 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:20:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.36] (pm3shep2-163-96.intrepid.net [209.190.163.96]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22018 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:26:08 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:26:55 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Attn: Hugh Lovel: re: Organic Gardening Articles of the 70s Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3377 Hugh - re: Your forthcoming title "Experiencing Out Bad Advice from Rodale Press or How Gene Logsdon stole My Labor" One time down at your farm you discussed with us the possibility that you'd write a book one day about all the bad ideas you got from articles in Organic Gardening, Rodale Press books, and Mother Earth News back in the '70's that you personally tried out on your farm before you really realized that people were writing articles about things they'd never even done. Being Hugh Lovel, you only rejected these ideas after you'd experienced them out on your own farm. Is this a false memory: did you say that you followed Rodale's suggestion to stone mulch your orchard and Peter Escher demonstrated to you that the stones were smoothering your tree roots? The previous farmer here at Claymont did some stone mulching with no demonstrateable benefit. He did, however, leave a lot of medium sized stone around in places where I'd prefer that it not be. :-) -Allan Balliett -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 30 17:30:01 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29586 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:30:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA02131; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:22:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01919 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:20:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.36] (pm3shep2-163-96.intrepid.net [209.190.163.96]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22084 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:26:28 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00a901bf6a83$1e1c62a0$6fcb6cce@netacc.net> References: <00a901bf6a83$1e1c62a0$6fcb6cce@netacc.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:28:06 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3378 >Allan: > >You'll find, I'm thinking, that BD#508, equisetum, is even more effective as >a preventative of fungus problems if applied before discoloration, etc. >appears; ounce of prevention and all that. > >Woody Yes, Woody. I have more of an understanding of what you are saying and more of a feel for that now. How would you approach using 508 in the circumstances that I described? Also: I'll be doing the first crop of favas in the hoop house. -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 30 17:30:01 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29585 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:30:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA02030; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:22:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01869 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:19:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.36] (pm3shep2-163-96.intrepid.net [209.190.163.96]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA21974 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:26:01 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:20:13 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3379 >Equisetum is definitely the thing for the favas. But you'll get more >abundance if you use horn clay. > >Hugh Hugh, but I'm a little lost. It seems that I was using the equisetum all wrong - - even on the Intention level - - and yet it worked wonders. (And it's done this several times for me.) I'm also confused about spraying horsetail on the ground as Malcolm mentioned. I've done this, of course, and do it as part of my sequential spraying, but I only put down a mist. Am I supposed to be DRENCHING the earth? Or, am I getting TOO PHYSCIAL again? Thanks -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 30 19:02:41 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00533 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:02:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08641; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:53:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (web1.vphos.net [207.102.129.200]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08390 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:50:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.141]) by web1.vphos.net ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:56:11 -0800 Message-ID: <000a01bf6b7d$9631e6c0$8dcb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: References: <00a901bf6a83$1e1c62a0$6fcb6cce@netacc.net> Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:01:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3380 Allan: Except as part of a sequential spray routine outdoors, I've mostly used #508 in the greenhouse as a preventative for damping off. Once the flats are filled and sown with seed, I spray a couple of times, even before the seed germinate. If I see the _first sign_ of damping off in the babies, I spray again. Woody ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett To: Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... > >Allan: > > > >You'll find, I'm thinking, that BD#508, equisetum, is even more effective as > >a preventative of fungus problems if applied before discoloration, etc. > >appears; ounce of prevention and all that. > > > >Woody > > Yes, Woody. I have more of an understanding of what you are saying > and more of a feel for that now. How would you approach using 508 in > the circumstances that I described? Also: I'll be doing the first > crop of favas in the hoop house. > > -Allan > -- > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 30 20:42:28 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01520 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:42:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA16936; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:34:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmx01.mail.com (rmx01.mail.com [165.251.32.149]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA16499 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:31:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from web11.mail.com (web11.pub01.mail.com [165.251.32.21]) by rmx01.mail.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA18100 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:37:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <385208724.949282627414.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:37:07 -0500 (EST) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Farming start-up Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.19.147.140 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3381 Dear List, I think this subject has been brought up here before, but I would like to revisit. This question is mainly directed to those who have been farming long enough to look back. Also, a few months ago Hugh alluded to his beginning farming with $40; I'd sure like to hear more about that! If you were just starting out today, how would you go about: 1. Acquiring land 2. Learning how to set things up 3. Buying necessary equipment 4. Developing confidence in your ability to practice BD 5. Anything I haven't brought up here that you think is important Considering the potential for biodynamics to effect dynamic earth healing, is it better for each of us to pursue land acquisition in order to bring more acres under its influence, then learn as best we can? Or is it better for each would-be practitioner to spend time as an apprentice somewhere to make sure we know what we're doing? I'm asking because I'm in the process of letting go of my beloved .3 acre so I can finally learn to farm for "reals" (as my kids used to say). Although I've read and learned a lot about larger-scale growing, I would like to know my capabilities. This is becoming more of an issue now for several reasons. A friend has just inherited a home on five acres of river bottom land. She has a vision of making it into an organic farm and has asked me to help. The home, garden, outbuildings are all on about half an acre of all this. For this year, she's thinking of plowing the field and planting alfalfa until she figures out the rest. It's been used to pasture cows and some horses, and has cow pies several months old and older on it. Weeds growing there are mostly sedges. Also, I am actively searching for land for myself, but feel a bit lost in this process. Do I look for something like what I had, a no soil situation that I had to transform, or do I look for something that could be productive and earn a living for me within several years? If I buy land that's been conventionally farmed, will I lose more time on the road to becoming certified than I would if I bought something that hasn't been used yet? I know all this doesn't sound too articulate, but I'm tossing it in for discussion anyway. Thanks, Pam DeTray ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 30 21:54:17 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02448 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:54:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA22951; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:46:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22861 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:45:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.132] (r-66.182.alltel.net [166.102.66.182]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id UAA19062 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:51:31 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:59:55 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3382 >>Equisetum is definitely the thing for the favas. But you'll get more >>abundance if you use horn clay. >> >>Hugh > >Hugh, but I'm a little lost. It seems that I was using the equisetum >all wrong - - even on the Intention level - - and yet it worked >wonders. (And it's done this several times for me.) > >I'm also confused about spraying horsetail on the ground as Malcolm >mentioned. I've done this, of course, and do it as part of my >sequential spraying, but I only put down a mist. Am I supposed to be >DRENCHING the earth? Or, am I getting TOO PHYSCIAL again? > >Thanks > >-Allan >-- Doesn't seem to me you've been too far off track. You can spray soil a little heavier than the air or foliage. Drench? Maybe that is economical in a greenhouse, though I doubt it is necessary. Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 30 21:54:17 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02449 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:54:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA23009; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:46:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22870 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:45:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.132] (r-66.182.alltel.net [166.102.66.182]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id UAA18897 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:51:27 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:42:35 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Attn: Hugh Lovel: re: Organic Gardening Articles of the 70s Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3383 >Hugh - > >re: Your forthcoming title "Experiencing Out Bad Advice from Rodale >Press or How Gene Logsdon stole My Labor" > >One time down at your farm you discussed with us the possibility that >you'd write a book one day about all the bad ideas you got from >articles in Organic Gardening, Rodale Press books, and Mother Earth >News back in the '70's that you personally tried out on your farm >before you really realized that people were writing articles about >things they'd never even done. Being Hugh Lovel, you only rejected >these ideas after you'd experienced them out on your own farm. > >Is this a false memory: did you say that you followed Rodale's >suggestion to stone mulch your orchard and Peter Escher demonstrated >to you that the stones were smoothering your tree roots? > >The previous farmer here at Claymont did some stone mulching with no >demonstrateable benefit. He did, however, leave a lot of medium sized >stone around in places where I'd prefer that it not be. :-) > >-Allan Balliett > > Dear Allan, Can't see when I'd get around to it. The Rodale philosophy reigned supreme for quite a while, but I don't think it will much longer. I don't know if it is worthwhile to shoot at them. Anyway, yes, I stone mulched. It was a disaster. I hauled cow manure (raw) and put it six inches deep on my garden. Disaster. I mulched thick with old sawdust and God, the fungi! I grew my potatoes in trenches with old sawdust. Incredibly stupid! Way too much work! Most things in that magazine seem to be too much work, though my hat's off to Ruth Stout's mulching methods once you have decent soil. Even that doesn't work on hard, red clay. What a misleading monthly madcap magazine. On another topic. You asked me to recommend speakers for your next conference. I have overlooked Bob Luzader. He gave (again!) the best presentation at my conference. He spoke on energy and healing at a distance and made the way things work a LOT clearer in a very matter-of-fact way. See if he will come. I don't know how to reach him direct since he sold his farm in Eustis, FL. You'll have to ask Harvey Lisle, 419 668 9632. Best, Hugh Lovel > >-- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 30 22:22:59 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02822 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:22:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24987; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:15:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta2.snfc21.pbi.net (mta2.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.123]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24723 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:11:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from pacbell.net ([209.79.182.120]) by mta2.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FP600H5GJOB2K@mta2.snfc21.pbi.net> for bdnow@envirolink.org; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:15:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:18:05 -0800 From: christopher jones Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE To: "bdnow@envirolink.org" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Message-id: <3894FEEA.A02E2CD4@pacbell.net> Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-PBI-NC404 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3384 -- Christopher Jones feast@pacbell.net From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Sun Jan 30 23:40:42 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03801 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:40:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA00950; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:31:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00687 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:28:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d146.infoserve.net [199.175.157.146]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id UAA21114 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:39:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004901bf6ba5$60f97400$929dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Subject: Fw: OFF/ GEN1-30Success in Montreal Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:41:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3385 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Sunday, January 30, 2000 8:05 AM Subject: GEN1-30Success in Montreal >America backs down on GM foods > >http://www.newsunlimited.co.uk/observer/international/story/0,3879,130331,0 0.htm >l > >The Observer > >America backs down on GM foods > >by Ed Vulliamy, John Madeley and Anthony Browne > >Sunday January 30, 2000 > >The beleaguered industry in genetically modified foods suffered its most >serious setback yesterday when 130 countries signed a treaty giving them >rights, for the first time, to restrict imports of GM crops without >breaking international trade rules. > >The breakthrough came after the United States unexpectedly climbed down at >the end of heated all-night negotiations at a United Nations summit in >Montreal. > >The US and half a dozen other GM-exporting countries had steadfastly >blocked a consensus pact to regulate the trade in genetically modified >food. The deadline for a deal passed on Friday night but the talks >continued and, close to dawn yesterday, the US delegation agreed to a >Biosafety Protocol. > >After the agreement, the US Assistant Secretary of State, David Sandlow, >said: 'On balance, we think this is an agreement that protects the >environment without disrupting world trade.' > >The European Union and many developing nations had argued that countries >should be allowed to refuse imports of any genetically modified product. >But the US had objected that restricting GM foods would be in violation of >World Trade Organisation treaties and that free trade should take >precedence. > >The pact will allow countries to apply a 'precautionary principle' and >reject imports of GM foodstuffs if they think there is a safety risk. It >will oblige all shipments and trading in genetically modified foods to bear >labels stating that the products 'may contain' GM organisms. > >British Environment Minister Michael Meacher said for the first time >countries will have the right to decide whether they want to import GM >products or not when there is less than full scientific evidence. It is >official that the environment rules aren't subordinate to the trade rules. >It's been one hell of a battle.' > >Trade in GM food was discussed at the WTO summit in Seattle in November but >the talks collapsed. > >........ > >U.S. Accepts Trade Agreement for Altered Food > >By John Burgess >Washington Post Staff Writer >Sunday, January 30, 2000; Page A1 > > > >MONTREAL, Jan. 29 – The United States today accepted under pressure a new >international trade agreement that could speed the labeling of genetically >engineered foods on the world market, a move that puts new pressure on U.S. >farmers to separate the increasingly controversial foods from the overall >supply. > >The pact, adopted by delegates of 140 countries after being endorsed by the >United States, would allow a country to ban the import of a genetically >modified food without full scientific proof that it was unsafe. > >..... > >Green groups applaud intl bio-safety trade pact > > >BRUSSELS, Jan 29 (Reuters) - Environmental groups on Saturday applauded an >agreement reached by international regulators in Montreal on regulating >trade in genetically modified organisms (GMOs) used in food. > >``This is a historic step towards protecting the environment and consumers >from the dangers of genetic engineering,'' Benedikt Haerlin of Greenpeace >said in a statement. > >``These minimum safety standards must be implemented immediately,'' he >said. ``And until the protocol has come into force all exports of GMOs >should be prohibited.'' > >Friends of the Earth in a separate statement also heralded the agreement. > >``For the past week the United States and its cronies have been holding the >rest of the world to ransom to protect the vested interests of a few >companies,'' it said. > >``They have not succeeded and now we have a protocol to regulate >genetically modified crops and foods.'' > >11:09 01-29-00 > >************************************************************** > >EU welcomes international bio-safety trade pact > > >BRUSSELS, Jan 29 (Reuters) - The European Union said on Saturday that it >welcomed an agreement reached by international regulators in Montreal on >regulating trade in genetically modified organisms (GMOs) used in food. > >``This is a historical moment and a breakthrough for international >agreements on trade and the environment,'' Margot Wallstron, the European >commissioner for environment, said in a statement. > >``This agreement will benefit all sides,'' she said. ``It reflects the >common will to protect the world's environment and confirms the importance >of the Convention on Biodiversity. This international framework eases >public concern and creates predictability for industry.'' > >10:50 01-29-00 > >************************************************************** > >Countries reach landmark GMO food agreement > >By Doug Palmer > > >MONTREAL, Jan 29 (Reuters) - More than 130 countries reached a landmark >agreement early on Saturday to regulate trade in genetically modified >organisms, a major part of the world's food supply that has raised >environmental and health concerns and strained international trade >relations. > >The U.N.-sponsored agreement strikes a delicate balance between the >interests of major exporters of genetically modified crops, such as the >United States and Canada, and importers in the European Union and >developing countries, which have expressed concerns about the health and >environmental impact of the new food varieties. > >The agreement, which still must be ratified by 50 countries before it goes >into effect, establishes an international framework for countries to use >when making decisions about genetically modified crops. > >It also requires, for the first time under an international agreement, >labeling of commodity shipments that ``may contain'' genetically modified >foods. But there is no specific requirement that farmers or the grain >industry segregate conventional and modified crops, which the U.S. >government said could cost billions of dollars. > >``On balance, we think this is an agreement that protects the environment >without disrupting world food trade,'' David Sandalow, assistant U.S. >secretary of state for oceans, environment and science, told reporters. > >European Commission Environmental Minister Margot Wallstrom said the >protocol, signed by more than 130 countries, was a victory for consumers >and importers and an agreement of which all countries could be proud. > >The pact also won praise from both industry groups and environmentalists, >who each feared the other would have more influence over the final outcome >of a pact on genetically modified organisms, or GMOs. > >GMOs SPARK CONCERN > >The term ``genetically modified organisms'' refers to plants and animals >containing genes transferred from other species to produce certain >characteristics, such as resistance to certain pests and herbicides. > >Although any genetically modified organism planted in the United States is >subjected to U.S. government testing and approval, some groups feared the >new varieties could have adverse environmental and health effects. Many EU >consumers, suspicious of genetically engineered crops, favoured blocking >their importation. > >To reach an agreement, the United States and Canada had to accept stronger >language than they wanted recognising the right of countries to use >precautions in making import decisions. > >With its language on the ``precautionary principle,'' the proposed >Biosafety Protocol agreement could set the stage for countries to close >their markets to genetically modified crops without conclusive scientific >evidence of harm. > >At the same time, the agreement also contains a ``savings clause,'' which >emphasises the new pact does not override rights and obligations under >other international agreements, including the World Trade Organisation >(WTO). > >The United States, which negotiated along with Canada as part of the Miami >Group bloc and therefore does not need congressional approval of the pact, >insisted on that language to ensure science-based WTO rules would still >apply to import decisions. > >If a dispute arises over a country's decision to close its market to a food >product, the WTO will review the protocol before making a ruling, Wallstrom >said. > >U.S. Undersecretary of State for Global Affairs Frank Loy acknowledged the >pact had some shortcomings from the U.S. point of view. ``Make no mistake. >The agreement is not perfect,'' Loy said. > >LABELING WOULD BE NEGOTIATED > >Once the protocol goes into effect, which could take two or three years, >commodity shipments that may contain GMOs will have to be labeled ``may >contain'' genetically modified organisms. > >At that point, a new round of negotiations on more specific labeling >requirements will also have to begin, with the requirement of finishing in >two years. > >Willy De Greef, director of regulatory and government affairs for Novartis, >a Swiss-based company that produces genetically modified corn varieties, >said the grain industry is already moving toward segregation. > >``What we needed was a framework'' and the protocol provides that, De Greef >said. > >Steven Daugherty, director of government and industry relations for Pioneer >Hi-Bred International Inc., a U.S. producer of genetically modified seed, >also said the protocol's commodity provisions appeared to be workable. > >Greenpeace, which had staged protests against genetically modified crops >throughout the week of negotiations, also gave its blessings to the pact. >``This is a historic step toward protecting the environment and consumers >>from the dangers of genetic engineering,'' the group said. > >A previous attempt to craft the Biosafety Protocol failed last year in >Cartagena, Colombia, mainly because the Miami Group feared it would block >trade. > >In contrast to the bitterness that pervaded that effort, participants >praised the positive atmosphere of this week's negotiations in Montreal. > >They also credited Colombian Environmental Minister Juan Myar, who chaired >the talks, for forcing negotiators to resolve their many issues to reach an >agreement. > >11:01 01-29-00 > >************************************************************** > >Deal Reached on Biotech Foods > >.c The Associated Press > > By MATT CRENSON > >MONTREAL (AP) - U.N. talks here finally produced rules governing trade in >genetically engineered products Saturday, nearly a year after previous >talks collapsed in the face of international discord. > >The new rules are complex, and many may be subject to legal challenges or >interpretations. But for now they contain language letting a country ban >imports of a genetically modified product if it feels there is not enough >scientific evidence showing the product is safe. > >It requires exporters to label shipments that contain genetically altered >commodities such as corn or cotton. It also tries to dictate how those >safety rules will coexist with free trade rules governed by the World >Trade Organization. > >The United States, a major producer of genetically engineered products, had >opposed labeling and had fought import bans except in cases where the >product is shown to be risky. It was forced to make concessions on those >and several other points. > >Fighting back tears, the conference's president, Juan Mayr, congratulated >his colleagues on reaching a compromise. > >``The adoption of this protocol represents a victory for the environment,'' >Mayr said. > >The protocol is intended to protect the environment from damage due to >genetically modified organisms. Environmentalists and some scientists worry >that bioengineered plants, animals and bacteria could wipe out native >strains or spread their genetic advantages to weeds and other undesirable >species. > >``There's fish genes in fruit, poultry genes in fish, animal genes in >plants, growth hormones in milk, insect genes in vegetables, tree genes in >grain and in the case of pork, human genes in meat,'' said Steve Gilman, >an organic farmer in Stillwater, N.Y. > >A first attempt to draw up a biosafety protocol ended last February in >Cartagena, Colombia, when the United States and five partners blocked a >pact that was acceptable to the other 125 countries. > >Saturday's new agreement came after a week of intense negotiations that >pitted the United States and its five allies in the talks - Canada, >Australia, Argentina, Chile and Uruguay - against the European Union and a >coalition of developing nations. As protesters stood outside in >single-digit temperatures chanting ``Hey, ho, GMOs have got to go,'' >negotiators worked until just before dawn to hammer out the final details. > >The EU and developing nations had argued that countries should be allowed >to refuse imports of a genetically modified product if little is known >about its environmental effect. The United States and its partners had >disagreed, saying many of the proposed rules would restrict trade. > >But the political situation changed in the last year, with major U.S. food >producers like Archer Daniels Midland and Gerber either demanding that >genetically modified products be segregated from other products or refusing >to use them altogether. Scientific studies have suggested that monarch >butterflies and other beneficial insects may be harmed by genetically >engineered crops. > >And protests at the WTO talks in Seattle last month also suggested that the >American public has concerns about genetically altered food. > >EU negotiators, whose constituency strongly opposes genetic modifications >in food, used the changed climate to exact a number of concessions from >the U.S. delegation. Nonetheless, U.S. negotiators said they were >satisfied with the final agreement. > >``The agreement that we achieved is a very substantial improvement over the >agreement we started with,'' U.S. Undersecretary of State Frank Loy said. > >In the end, the sides' most serious differences turned out to be over how >the biosafety protocol would relate to WTO rules, and whether shipments of >genetically modified commodities should be labeled. > >Environmentalists have complained in recent years that the WTO's free trade >pact has overridden regulations meant to protect human and ecological >health. But Saturday's agreement calls for the biosafety protocol and the >WTO rules to be ``mutually supportive'' with nothing ``intended to >subordinate this Protocol to other international agreements.'' > >Under the protocol, exporters will be required to apply the label ``may >contain living modified organisms'' to all shipments containing genetically >altered commodities. The protocol allows for a revision of that labeling >policy after two years. > >In a legal question mark, the United States has neither signed nor ratified >the biodiversity treaty that oversees the new protocol. So technically, the >U.S. is not bound to honor it. > >``Not being part of this treaty makes it more challenging for us here,'' >U.S. negotiator David Sandalow said. > >Genetically modified crops are already widespread. About 70 million acres >of genetically engineered plants were cultivated worldwide in 1999. In the >United States, genetically engineered varieties account for about 25 >percent of corn and 40 percent of soybeans. > >Biotechnology proponents point to the potential of the technology to >increase yields and improve nutrition. > >``The longer I use it the more I believe in it,'' said Robert M. Boeding, >an Iowa farmer who has grown genetically modified corn for the last five >years. He says the modified strain keeps him from having to use dangerous >pesticides to protect his crop from insects. > >AP-NY-01-29-00 1505EST > >__________________________________ >Richard Wolfson, PhD >Consumer Right to Know Campaign >for Mandatory labelling and long-term >testing of genetically engineered food >500 Wilbrod Street, Ottawa, ON K1N 6N2 >email: rwolfson@concentric.net >http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic >subcription to genetic engineering news of 12 months >is $35 (payable to BanGEF at above address) >__________________________________ > > > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 05:42:28 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA06337 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 05:42:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA24707; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 05:32:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA24461 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 05:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.132] (r-67.80.alltel.net [166.102.67.80]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id EAA21383 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 04:36:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <385208724.949282627414.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 05:44:00 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Farming start-up Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3386 >Dear List, > >I think this subject has been brought up here >before, but I would like to revisit. > >This question is mainly directed to those who have >been farming long enough to look back. Also, a few >months ago Hugh alluded to his beginning farming >with $40; I'd sure like to hear more about that! > Pam, I worked 70 hour weeks off the farm and farmed besides. Normally that's considered to be insane, but as you probably have noticed from such posts as those about the BD trademark, I had a calling and a vision. I did whatever I had to. >If you were just starting out today, how would you >go about: > >1. Acquiring land I acquired some very acid, gullied, eroded land shaded by two mountain ridges. I simply got what land I could. I've been thankful because if I had gotten good land I'd never have found out how to restore and conserve land so well. >2. Learning how to set things up I was always skillful with tools and able to see how things could be done. My problem was understanding what was desired. I thought, for instance, I wanted to farm without animals. Wrong idea that I even COULD farm so. Animals will be there like it or not. Since you're going to have animals, maybe you DO want to care for some. But I had that Helen & Scott Nearing disease. What I had to do was get my preconceived ideas out of my way before I could see what was needed. I had all kinds of preconceived ideas that I didn't even realize I had. >3. Buying necessary equipment At least I didn't have money enough to buy unnecessary gadgets and machines. I bought junk dirt cheap and nursed it along, learning as I went. I didn't borrow for anything until I was sure it was what I needed. >4. Developing confidence in your ability to >practice BD I had far more confidence in my abilities to practice BD than was warranted. Perhaps reading Pfeiffer's rather materialistic views didn't help, and certainly Koepf was a disaster with all his reliance on chemical analyses and his avoidance of talking about any energy/prep issues. In my overconfidence I had a hard time seeing I didn't have a clue what biodynamics was really about--and darn few teachers, many of which were misleading. Thus it took me over a decade to really twig to the fact that BD was all about forces and energy. Then I still had the problem of getting a clear idea of what kind of energy. At least I saw right off it wasn't electro-magnetic, which is the commonest misconception. Harvey Lisle probably was the biggest help of anyone to me. Writing a book helped enormously to clarify my ideas. Seeing the difference between energy and force was an important distinction too. BD is really about force--which is that which compells. Energies always follow the patterns dictated by force. Most of modern physics is in the dark here and should go back to study Goethe on force. That's one thing that Koepf's excellent little booklet, READINGS IN GOETHEAN SCIENCE was helpful with. If I had started out with a fuller deck it might have been helpful. I had but the vaguest idea how the preps worked and didn't use them skillfully for years and years. I went to all kinds of astounding efforts doing things ineffectually the hard way. Now that I can look back on all that and laugh I guess you can say I finally am (realistically) confident in my ability to practice BD. >5. Anything I haven't brought up here that you >think is important My mentor, Peter Escher, confided in me about my third year that in his judgment I would make it, "Because I had to." Meaning that I wasn't getting subsidies and grants to support my farm work. I worked off the farm at jobs I felt would give me farm skills while paying for the land. I couldn't be wasteful and I had to always be concerned with how was it going to result down the road in farm income. That led to being very focused and creative. If I had relied on handouts from government programs, grant writing, etc. to create this institute, it never would have become a meaningful reality. Best, Hugh Lovel Union Agricultural Institute Blairsville, Georgia > >Considering the potential for biodynamics to >effect dynamic earth healing, is it better for >each of us to pursue land acquisition in order to >bring more acres under its influence, then learn >as best we can? Or is it better for each would-be >practitioner to spend time as an apprentice >somewhere to make sure we know what we're doing? > >I'm asking because I'm in the process of letting >go of my beloved .3 acre so I can finally learn to >farm for "reals" (as my kids used to say). >Although I've read and learned a lot about >larger-scale growing, I would like to know my >capabilities. This is becoming more of an issue >now for several reasons. > >A friend has just inherited a home on five acres >of river bottom land. She has a vision of making >it into an organic farm and has asked me to help. >The home, garden, outbuildings are all on about >half an acre of all this. For this year, she's >thinking of plowing the field and planting alfalfa >until she figures out the rest. It's been used to >pasture cows and some horses, and has cow pies >several months old and older on it. Weeds growing >there are mostly sedges. > >Also, I am actively searching for land for myself, >but feel a bit lost in this process. Do I look for >something like what I had, a no soil situation >that I had to transform, or do I look for >something that could be productive and earn a >living for me within several years? If I buy land >that's been conventionally farmed, will I lose >more time on the road to becoming certified than I >would if I bought something that hasn't been used >yet? > >I know all this doesn't sound too articulate, but >I'm tossing it in for discussion anyway. > > >Thanks, >Pam DeTray > >----------------------------------------------- >FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com >Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 08:14:27 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07490 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:14:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02807; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:01:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA02651 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:58:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207-172-77-10.s10.tnt1.lee.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.77.10] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12FGVN-0004y2-00; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:04:34 -0500 Message-ID: <389588B8.CB3675C0@erols.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:06:00 -0500 From: Robert Farr Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: The Chile Man, inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Return to Horsetail... References: <00a901bf6a83$1e1c62a0$6fcb6cce@netacc.net> <000a01bf6b7d$9631e6c0$8dcb6cce@netacc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3387 Chamomille tea works great for damping off. I used it on 300 or 400 of my pepper seedlings last year. General recommendations from the organic gardening list say 1 tsp. per cup of water. I used a tea ball (the kind with little holes), filled it full of flowers, then put it in my tea pot. Used it full-strength - in other words, didn't dilute with more water, like you might a pepper spray. Urtica Dioica - stinging nettle - is also supposed to work on damping off (this I picked up from the Chile-Heads list; I've never tried it myself. Take a 5 gal. pail, fill 2/3 full of nettles. Add water at 100 degrees F and steep for 3 weeks. In early spring - before the nettles are growing - I suppose one could use dried nettles. I keep those around for asthma and a general tonic. Mixed with comfrey, nettle tea provides a great cure for colds, and a general morning boost. Robert. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 08:55:50 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08086 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:55:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06232; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:48:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.computer.net (root@ns.computer.net [207.50.192.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA05947 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:45:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from cds1y.webcity (nyc-ip106.computer.net [140.186.252.106]) by ns.computer.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA02106 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:51:33 -0500 (EST) From: Jane Sherry/wcdev/US Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:52:00 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: COTS: January 30, 2000 - February 05, 2000 Message-ID: <35359770F231085985256877004C269B.0000000000000000@webcity> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id IAA05950 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3388 Calendar of the Soul [January 30, 2000 - February 05, 2000] Forty-fourth Week (February 2-8) In reaching for new sense attractions, Soul-clarity would fill, Mindful of spirit-birth attained, The world's bewildering, sprouting growth With the creative will of my own thinking. ___________________________________ English translation by Ruth and Hans Pusch ___________________________________ Ergreifend neue Sinnesreize Erfüllet Seelenklarheit Eingedenk Vollzogener Geistgeburt, Verwirrend Sprossend Weltenwerden Mit meines Denkens Schöpferwillen. ___________________________________________________________ Created for: The Steiner e.Lib by: C4 Systems, Inc. (c) 1990-2000 [1]This Calendar of the Soul Verse in HTML ___________________________________________________________ References 1. http://www.elib.com/Steiner/COTS/COTS.phtml?cots+44 -- To unsubscribe: send mail to cots-request@c4systm.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the Subject: line From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 09:04:51 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08208 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:04:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06945; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:57:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06858 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:56:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.36] (pm3shep2-163-93.intrepid.net [209.190.163.93]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25311 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:02:19 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3894FEEA.A02E2CD4@pacbell.net> References: <3894FEEA.A02E2CD4@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:57:52 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: UNSUBSCRIBE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3389 Just a reminder: to unsubscribe from BDNow! send a message to listproc@envirolink.org (from the account you registered from) in the body of the message put: unsub bdnow -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 09:05:02 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08216 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:05:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06990; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:57:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06886 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:56:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.36] (pm3shep2-163-93.intrepid.net [209.190.163.93]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25370 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:02:37 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:01:11 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Attn: Hugh Lovel: re: Organic Gardening Articles of the 70s Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3390 >On another topic. You asked me to recommend speakers for your next >conference. I have overlooked Bob Luzader. He gave (again!) the best >presentation at my conference. He spoke on energy and healing at a distance >and made the way things work a LOT clearer in a very matter-of-fact way. >See if he will come. Thanks, Hugh, for the recommendation. Joel Lillard, a professional homeopathic remedy maker/teacher and friend of Bob's, will be speaking at the conference this October. It would be wonderful to get Bob to speak also. I'm particularly enamored with the way the Bob has 'set homeopathic remedies free' with his use of radionics, etc. I would give anything to have the sort of homeopathic remedy inventory that Bob carries on the backseat of his car!!:-) Thanks again -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 10:07:37 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09145 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:07:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12850; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:00:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.infoserve.net (0@unix.infoserve.net [199.175.157.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12720 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from 333 (d152.infoserve.net [199.175.157.152]) by unix.infoserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA27964; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:09:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002401bf6bfd$86a7b920$989dafc7@333> From: "Michael Roboz" To: Cc: Subject: Fw: EU poised to ban roundup Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:11:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3391 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wolfson To: info@natural-law.ca Date: Monday, January 31, 2000 6:57 AM Subject: GEN1-31/AliveFeb2000 >Biotech News, by Richard Wolfson, PhD > >Reprinted with permission from the February 2000 issue of Alive: Canadian >Journal of Health and Nutrition, 7436 Fraser Park Drive, Burnaby, BC V5J >5B9 > >EU Poised to Ban Roundup > >Europe is considering banning the herbicide roundup because of a recent >scientific report showing that the chemical (technically called glyphosate) >kills beneficial insects. A ban would not only hurt roundup sales, but >would also affect the biotech crops genetically engineered to withstand the >chemical. Independent research in Sweden has linked exposure to glyphosate >with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, a form of cancer. > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 12:54:09 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13334 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:54:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06638; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:45:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from bvw_nt2.hv-w.com ([209.204.134.179]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06492 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:44:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by bvw_nt2.hv-w.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:48:32 -0800 Message-ID: From: Richard Mansfield To: "'bdnow@envirolink.org'" Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:48:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3392 From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 15:12:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19070 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:12:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25867; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:03:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12156 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:27:59 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp268.cy-net.net [208.21.195.77]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28233 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:34:03 -0600 Message-Id: <200001311834.MAA28233@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:33:53 -0600 Subject: (Fwd) RE: starting up (more) Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3393 ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: Self To: Pam DeTray Subject: RE: starting up (more) Date sent: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:27:01 -0600 Where are you looking? (what states?) What size property are you looking at? Will you want livestock also? Will you work away from the farmstead while you build it up? Are you going this alone or do you have a husband/mate who can share the workload, ups, downs, etc. If you're close to a town, particular a college town, you may be able to conduct seminars and 'outings' to your farmstead. I have a LOT of folk clamboring for soap making clinics, hands-on seminars on simple stuff like pressure canning and cheesemaking. I don't have the facilities to do it, but I'm thinking for my next building project, that may be handy. (Including a 'bunkhouse' facility for families to spend the night.) If you're going to attempt a CSA or market garden, you'll need to be much closer to a good-sized town than I am. (closer than 60 miles one way.) Otherwise, the more rural, the better in my opinion! Make sure there are not hidden codes or regulations. I know one lady who is in Leander Tx, part of a large 4000 acre ranch that subdivided. They can have horses and cattle but not caged animals. Were I to sell off the 30 acres that's separated from the main farm, I'd stipulate 'no CAFO', and I'm sure there are other criteria a land holder may specify. Try to get mineral rights, or a % of them anyhow. That way, the owners nor their inheritors can't plop an oil well in the middle of your yard! Make sure the rural electric company runs close enough that you're not paying a lot of money per foot to just hook to it. (Seems like 700 feet they'll hook you up, over that and you pay quite a bit for the extra poles, lines, etc.) could mean that you have to face your house closer to a road or hiline than you'd planned. Eventually, I'm sure the phone services will all be fiber optics but for now, our own internet hook up is only as fast as the land lines and they aren't that good. (All the above is supposing that you don't want to go totally off the grid with your move.) Once you pinpoint a town or area, think about going to the Chamber of Commerce and asking to see building permits that may have been submitted w/in the last 5 years or so. You wouldn't want to buy land next door to a place that has a future as a radioactive/toxic dump site. (We fought that in our own county several times.) Husband is an industrial electrical supervisor, and routinely checks on permits pending and issued, just to find out what's going on around us. When you find a place you really love, I'm sure he can do that research for you over the 'net. Here in E Texas, land prices are pretty cheap because the oil industry hasn't renewed their leases and don't appear to be interested. Unimproved grassland/woodland mix is running $750 - $900 per acre for 30 acres or larger. The down side of rural living is that there isn't such a thing as handyman. don't expect to hire fence building, or barn building to be done easily. (Amazing what we can learn to do ourselves, though!) And, you know the drill about rural hospitals and health benefits (non) of self employment. The good part of that is I just went to the doctor for the first time in 10 years. He couldn't believe ANYONE could exist w/out medical help for 10 years! A $45 office visit every 10 years or so ain't bad! I had notoriously high blood pressure, and it's lower now than in 1983 when we 'officially' moved here. So, that health thing swings both ways. Take advantage of the area resources if possible. (Canvas the area within a 50 (+) mile radius to find out things people are doing you might be able to utilize.) Frequently, a timber / lumber mill will go through the countryside, buying logs and turning them into milled wood. They usually have enormous scrap piles that you can get for almost nothing. Keeps them from chipping them for plywood sales or burning them. I don't like to see folk bulldoze down old established forests, I wouldn't treat mine like that, but again, I don't want to pay top dollar for treated lumber when the raw stuff is right around the corner, and at $30 for a truckload at that. We are putting up a foaling shed and I'm probably going to 'face' it with half-rounds from the mill. (slab wood with the bark left on). Oops, This turned longer than I'd planned. ------- End of forwarded message ------- Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 15:12:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19071 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:12:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26111; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:04:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12160 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:28:00 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp268.cy-net.net [208.21.195.77]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28239 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:34:05 -0600 Message-Id: <200001311834.MAA28239@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:33:53 -0600 Subject: (Fwd) starting up Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3394 I responded to Pam privately, but she suggested making it public, since the list is archived. ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: Self To: pamdetray@email.com Subject: starting up Date sent: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 04:12:32 -0600 Pam, answering off list, but if you think it's appropriate, can repost on BD Now group. Some of these same questions came up on a Homestead Work group I'm on also. Were I moving, I'd pick out a general area to begin an intensive search. Soil analysis, geographic survey charts, etc are beneficial, but won't tell you nearly as much as what was done with the land prior to it's on the market. Look at the area in good and bad weather, take photos and ask the neighbors a lot of questions about rainfall, run off, drought, etc. Personally I'd want live water, and hopefully, no one close with a CAFO in site, at least not upstream. And, look for parcels larger than you think you'll actually be using any time soon. You'll have a buffer between whatever the neighbors are doing and you can always lease the extra for cattle grazing if it's open enough. Make sure your 'creature comforts' are established before you get there. A liveable house and (hopefully) existing barn will help you get to working the land much quicker than if you have to stop and build first. If you were to put up today a barn big enough to house equipment, livestock, granary, etc, it'd be pretty cost prohibitive. Actually, I'd go for a barn I could put an apartment inside, if they had barns and outbuildings but no house. Equipment, it's almost impossible to 'prebuy' that kind of thing. You usually get something as it becomes pressing in need. If you own a good tractor, great, but you won't know how big you'll actually need until you are approaching the work to be done. (A garden tractor, and something to keep weeds mown with can be done pretty minimally, but haymaking or stump grinding will take greater horsepower equipment.) ------- End of forwarded message ------- Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 18:11:21 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23830 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:11:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16150; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:03:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11529 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:08:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.36] (pm3shep3-163-139.intrepid.net [209.190.163.139]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28794 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:14:14 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:18:57 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: SoC Organic Seed avail thru BURPEE this season Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3395 From Stephen Badger, President of Seeds of Change > >To answer your question, Seeds of Change is not owned by Burpee. We do, >however, have a distribution agreement with them. That means they >sell seed we >grow and provide to them to Lawn and Garden stores, and we remain completely >independent from them otherwise. Why did we do this? > >Well, the main reason we did this is that 95% of all seeds are sold >in Lawn and >Garden stores, and most are supplied to stores with very generous sales terms. >Typically these terms are consignment which means that the seeds are delivered >in the winter, and the store isn't billed until the following fall >when the rack >is picked up. To ensure your rack actually makes it to the store floor and >stays stocked, it is best to have a sales force which can moniter >the placement >of the rack and its inventory. All of this can be very expensive, >and so, being >historically a small independent organic seed company, it has been very >difficult for us to compete in the very channel where most seeds are actually >bought by gardeners. Therefore, we have focused mostly on catalog, web, and >natural food stores as a result, though we did at one time sell to Lawn and >garden stores. Needless to say, when Burpee offered us the >opportunity to work >with them to sell our seeds in a channel where most seeds are >bought, we thought >it a very good relationship to pursue. > >To date, I have found Burpee honest and straightforward, or I certainly would >not have chosen to move forward with them. We have worked hard to build our >reputation and would certainly not squander it. They have respected >our organic >requirements fully, and respect us as the leading organic seed company. > >I hope this answers your questions, and I certainly hope you don't boycott us. >We are still producing all our seeds ourselves with our own certified organic >research farm and our network of certified organic family farmers. > >Very best regards, thanks for asking, > >Stephen Badger, President, Seeds of Change -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 18:11:21 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23831 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:11:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16102; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:03:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp4.ihug.co.nz (smtp4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.252.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01613 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:43:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from siesta (p95-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.109.138.95]) by smtp4.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id JAA28331 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:49:04 +1300 Message-ID: <002d01bf6c2b$b8b00480$5f8a6dcb@siesta> From: "I & K Buckingham" To: References: <38829CB8.5CA8@xtra.co.nz><4.3.0.29.1.20000122215222.00a57dd0@swva.net> <4.3.0.29.1.20000127161243.00a919a0@swva.net> Subject: Re: mineral accumulators Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:42:40 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3396 ----- Original Message ----- From: malcolm ian gardner > If I understand you correctly, you are saying one can remedy soil mineral > deficiencies by "fertilizing" with composts made from specific accumulator > plants. Improve the situation,yes, but remedy a large deficiency I would look at RPR's etc. IMO, adding to compost or making liquid brews will maintain mineral levels or slightly improve the health of the plant (with good BD practices) but will not change a major nutrient deficiency to a minor. >I wonder now whether can also *plant* certain species in order to remedy certain soil >*deficiencies* (Scotch thistles for soils deficient in K?). I should think so, but I > would like to hear you say so explicitly, See above. With what little info I have I would not use for this purpose. >and I also wonder whether one can know which plants these are from your spreadsheet. Those with an x have been reported as high in that particular mineral. What is high is a relative term in itself. By posting this spreadsheet, it has got me researching further to try and get some definite figures on mineral levels. >But if some plants can enrich the soil *while they are growing*, this means (does it not?) that >they must be accumulating from the *atmosphere*. > could this not also be the case for other accumulator species with respect to other elements? >Do you know of any other cases? I suspect this is the case but have no evidence to show this. > In addition to these considerations, there is also the question whether in some case the elements >accumulated started out as different elements, in other words, whether any transmutation took >place. I suspect this may be the case, but only surmising. Hope this has cleared it up for you. Regards Ian Buckingham Maungatawhiri New Zealand From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 18:11:32 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23858 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:11:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16204; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:04:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13984 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:33:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.36] (pm3shep4-163-168.intrepid.net [209.190.163.168]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02765 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:39:11 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002401bf6bfd$86a7b920$989dafc7@333> References: <002401bf6bfd$86a7b920$989dafc7@333> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:35:24 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Fw: EU poised to ban roundup Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3397 >-----Original Message----- >From: Richard Wolfson >To: info@natural-law.ca >Date: Monday, January 31, 2000 6:57 AM >Subject: GEN1-31/AliveFeb2000 > > >>Biotech News, by Richard Wolfson, PhD >> >>Reprinted with permission from the February 2000 issue of Alive: Canadian >>Journal of Health and Nutrition, 7436 Fraser Park Drive, Burnaby, BC V5J >>5B9 >> >>EU Poised to Ban Roundup >> >>Europe is considering banning the herbicide roundup because of a recent >>scientific report showing that the chemical (technically called glyphosate) >>kills beneficial insects. A ban would not only hurt roundup sales, but >>would also affect the biotech crops genetically engineered to withstand the >>chemical. Independent research in Sweden has linked exposure to glyphosate >>with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, a form of cancer. >> Dear Michael - How much validity does this roundup/lymphoma link have? Is this a substantiated report as far as you're concerned? I'm no found (or user!) of Roundup, but I don't want to make hay with this report (so to speak) if it's more 'net news,' if you know what I mean. Help! -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 18:12:09 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23866 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:12:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16260; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:04:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13994 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.36] (pm3shep4-163-168.intrepid.net [209.190.163.168]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02817 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:39:21 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:39:11 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Cows for Sally Fallon Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3398 Dear Lisa - How are you? Going to be at PASA this w.e.? Sally Fallon has asked me 'If I buy a jersey, will you board it, care for it and milk it and sell me the milk? Separate the cream from the milk, and give me the cream every w.e. Keep the milk for yourself." She has three friends who would like to be part of the same plan. It sounds like a deal to me, but everyone (non-farmers, of course) tells me that there's too much labor in this and it's all in Sally's favor. If it is all in Sally's favor, it seems to me that dairy would never work ANYWHERE :-) Oh, we'd get a pregnant cow and I'd keep the calves. What do you think? Do you know where I could find a business plan for this sort of deal? (4 cow dairy operation) I'd be happy to make cheese from the milk. Later -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 21:12:37 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26742 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:12:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05133; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:04:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ecpport2.midcoast.com.au (ecpport2.ecopost.com.au [203.28.64.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19708 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:32:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from kwi (kmidc65-43.ecopost.com.au [203.28.65.43]) by ecpport2.midcoast.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA14609 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:38:03 +1100 Message-ID: <003d01bf6c43$fef76ce0$3a411ccb@kwi> From: "D & S Chamberlain" To: References: <385208724.949282627414.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> Subject: Re: Farming start-up Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:34:30 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3399 Many of the questions you ask will be dependant upon your personal resources, I have been asked many times over the years what I would do to start up again. The only generic answer I can give, is go for fertile soil and clean water first. While it can give enormous satisfaction restoring depleted soil it's bloody hard work and can be expensive in time and money. You can live and be happy in any old shack, your plants and animals need that soil fertility. David Chamberlain ----- Original Message ----- From: Pam DeTray To: Sent: Monday, 31 January 2000 12:37 Subject: Farming start-up > Dear List, > > I think this subject has been brought up here > before, but I would like to revisit. > > This question is mainly directed to those who have > been farming long enough to look back. Also, a few > months ago Hugh alluded to his beginning farming > with $40; I'd sure like to hear more about that! > > If you were just starting out today, how would you > go about: > > 1. Acquiring land > 2. Learning how to set things up > 3. Buying necessary equipment > 4. Developing confidence in your ability to > practice BD > 5. Anything I haven't brought up here that you > think is important > > Considering the potential for biodynamics to > effect dynamic earth healing, is it better for > each of us to pursue land acquisition in order to > bring more acres under its influence, then learn > as best we can? Or is it better for each would-be > practitioner to spend time as an apprentice > somewhere to make sure we know what we're doing? > > I'm asking because I'm in the process of letting > go of my beloved .3 acre so I can finally learn to > farm for "reals" (as my kids used to say). > Although I've read and learned a lot about > larger-scale growing, I would like to know my > capabilities. This is becoming more of an issue > now for several reasons. > > A friend has just inherited a home on five acres > of river bottom land. She has a vision of making > it into an organic farm and has asked me to help. > The home, garden, outbuildings are all on about > half an acre of all this. For this year, she's > thinking of plowing the field and planting alfalfa > until she figures out the rest. It's been used to > pasture cows and some horses, and has cow pies > several months old and older on it. Weeds growing > there are mostly sedges. > > Also, I am actively searching for land for myself, > but feel a bit lost in this process. Do I look for > something like what I had, a no soil situation > that I had to transform, or do I look for > something that could be productive and earn a > living for me within several years? If I buy land > that's been conventionally farmed, will I lose > more time on the road to becoming certified than I > would if I bought something that hasn't been used > yet? > > I know all this doesn't sound too articulate, but > I'm tossing it in for discussion anyway. > > > Thanks, > Pam DeTray > > ----------------------------------------------- > FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com > Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 21:12:39 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26751 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:12:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA04915; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:03:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17777 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:13:25 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp213.cy-net.net [208.21.195.22]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07231 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:19:33 -0600 Message-Id: <200001312319.RAA07231@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:19:06 -0600 Subject: Re: Cows for Sally Fallon Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3400 Allan, I have done this with my goats in the past. Someone needs milk, I can't 'sell' milk, but I lease them a milker. I care for it, all they want is the milk x times per week. They pay for the feed and any vet bills that may happen. Milk cows can eat 15+ lbs of grain stuffs per day, 1/3 of a bale of hay, and up to 30 gallons of water intake, so I'd make it clear who is in charge of the feed bill. I'd break it down per annual. X for the cow cost up front, x for the feed and hay for 365 days per year, x to rebreed her when the calves come. (How long will you keep a dry cow before calving? How much can you afford to let the calf have, can you graft 2 - 3 extra onto her w/out sacrificing milk output for your original needs, etc.) on the plus side: put approx gallons of milk per week she'll make, manure for the compost, calf for the freezer, etc. Figure out who needs to pay the most according to who'll benefit more. Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 21:12:40 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26752 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:12:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05321; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:04:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22908 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:07:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.36] (pm3shep4-163-196.intrepid.net [209.190.163.196]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA27540 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:13:26 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:49:35 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Cows for Sally Fallon Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3401 Dear Friends - A personal post accidentally splashed on the list. Please ignore! (however, your cogent private comments could be welcomed. :-) -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 21:12:58 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26771 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:12:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05518; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:05:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from web215.mail.yahoo.com (web215.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.115]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25415 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:35:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 9757 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Feb 2000 00:41:15 -0000 Message-ID: <20000201004115.9756.qmail@web215.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.194.109.125] by web215.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:41:15 PST Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:41:15 -0800 (PST) From: SRC Subject: ethers query To: bdnow@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3402 Hi. Deluking to request info on the "Four Ethers" from an Anthroposophical perscpective for use in another list discussion. I think I remember a couple of very succinct and lucid expositions posted here not too long ago, but they were deleted and not saved before I realized their worth. References to the literature would also be helpful. This is in regard to magical workings with nature beings and creative relationships with land-based energies. Subnature considerations are also involved. Anyone? Offlist is fine if that suits. Thanx, Stephen __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 21:13:34 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26791 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:13:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05679; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:05:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from river.netrover.com (river.netrover.com [204.50.56.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA02195 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:44:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (cust3.nrvmax6.tor1.netrover.com [206.186.85.3]) by river.netrover.com (8.9.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA29161 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:50:49 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-From: villager@netrover.com X-Envelope-To: From: "manfred palmer" To: Subject: Re: Cows for Sally Fallon Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:53:38 -0500 Message-ID: <01bf6c57$28c1b040$0355bace@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3403 Allan: A BD farmer in our area started leasing his cows to customers when officials told him he could'nt sell raw milk. I'll try to get some details over time, since he's not online. He also makes quite a bit of cheese. regards, manfred -----Original Message----- From: Allan Balliett To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Monday, January 31, 2000 6:10 PM Subject: Cows for Sally Fallon >Dear Lisa - > >How are you? Going to be at PASA this w.e.? > >Sally Fallon has asked me 'If I buy a jersey, will you board it, care >for it and milk it and sell me the milk? Separate the cream from the >milk, and give me the cream every w.e. Keep the milk for yourself." >She has three friends who would like to be part of the same plan. It >sounds like a deal to me, but everyone (non-farmers, of course) tells >me that there's too much labor in this and it's all in Sally's favor. >If it is all in Sally's favor, it seems to me that dairy would never >work ANYWHERE :-) Oh, we'd get a pregnant cow and I'd keep the calves. > >What do you think? Do you know where I could find a business plan for >this sort of deal? (4 cow dairy operation) I'd be happy to make >cheese from the milk. > >Later > >-Allan >-- > From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 23:02:05 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA28566 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:02:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA18481; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:43:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18041 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:40:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.132] (r-67.66.alltel.net [166.102.67.66]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id VAA22580 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:46:27 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:12:33 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Cows for Sally Fallon Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3404 >Dear Lisa - > >How are you? Going to be at PASA this w.e.? > >Sally Fallon has asked me 'If I buy a jersey, will you board it, care >for it and milk it and sell me the milk? Separate the cream from the >milk, and give me the cream every w.e. Keep the milk for yourself." >She has three friends who would like to be part of the same plan. It >sounds like a deal to me, but everyone (non-farmers, of course) tells >me that there's too much labor in this and it's all in Sally's favor. >If it is all in Sally's favor, it seems to me that dairy would never >work ANYWHERE :-) Oh, we'd get a pregnant cow and I'd keep the calves. > >What do you think? Do you know where I could find a business plan for >this sort of deal? (4 cow dairy operation) I'd be happy to make >cheese from the milk. > >Later > >-Allan >-- Allan, As you know, I DO this sort of thing and have for over a decade. The pay-off for me is all that compost. I'm acquainted with your set-up at Claymont and boarding a cow for Sally and a few others would work fairly well. I'd suggest you look into a mechanical milking machine, however, especially if you're thinking of going over one or two cows. This sort of thing is enormously consumptive of time. I don't see how you could do it all yourself. My barn is just a short jaunt from the house, and I still spend an average of more than two hours a day just on the milking, milk handling and processing of yugurt, cheese and butter. And it must be done knowledgably and METICULOUSLY. I've never had an apprentice who measures up to my personal standards of cleanliness and neatness on this, though when it comes to learning to milk they mostly do fine. For you refrigeration isn't the big one, but for me it has been an issue. Cheese must be aged for at least a couple months, and I've had a couple serious cheese losses when refrigerators went down. What you need is someone with real meticulous kitchen skills to do the care and processing end for you. It can be done, but you're a busy guy. Think about it. Small dairy is really wonderful for what can be produced, almost just from grass (some feed in the staunchon). If you can do it well (don't bother doing it sleazily) it is one of the greatest boons. I'm sure Sally would ensure your products all found their ways to the table. Best, Hugh From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Mon Jan 31 23:24:57 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA29084 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:24:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21834; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:17:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from portal.txcyber.com (root@portal.cy-net.net [205.140.147.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA21634 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:14:42 -0500 (EST) From: flylo@txcyber.com Received: from flylo (ppp286.cy-net.net [208.21.195.95]) by portal.txcyber.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA11103 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:20:49 -0600 Message-Id: <200002010420.WAA11103@portal.txcyber.com> To: bdnow@envirolink.org Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:20:02 -0600 Subject: Re: Cows for Sally Fallon Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3405 Ok, and why is a Jersey specified? I've been thinking along the lines of either Dexters (little mini milkers) or Milking Shorthorns, so I get more beef and maybe less volume in milk capacity. Jersey calves are fairly fragile and you're not going to get a lot of meat for all your efforts with a straight Jersey calf. Martha, (Texas) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/index.html See TexCat Web page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/5505/Texcat_home.html From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Feb 1 10:27:50 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05652 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:27:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11689; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:19:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmx08.globecomm.net (rmx08.iname.net [165.251.8.85]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11205 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:15:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from web03_mc.mail.com by rmx08.globecomm.net (8.9.1/8.8.0) with SMTP id KAA14177 ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:22:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <382449018.949418525093.JavaMail.root@web03_mc.mail.com> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:22:05 -0500 (EST) From: Pam DeTray To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Farming start-up Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.70.43.36 Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3406 I am appreciating very much all the thoughts contributed so far on this thread. I hope everyone with experience finding and buying land, or just finding your own place in BD growing, will express your thoughts, feelings, memories, advice, no matter how trivial it might seem. There must be more on this list than just me looking to find a way to practice BD on a larger scale than a backyard garden. I also heard privately to be sure to have a water quality test done, for about $30. I'm sure that's an issue in this valley I'm considering. I looked at a place last year, and the woman told me nitrates are present in the water everywhere around here. Fruit orchards have been dominant here for about a century, but in the past year at least half have been removed, as consumers "suddenly" stopped buying Red and Gold Delicious apples. The land owners are finding more profit in removing the trees and subdividing to providing homespace for people working over in Boise. Last year, even the Mormon church removed acres of Fuji and Cameo trees that had just been planted the year before on its holdings. There are some wonderful old farms around here. But I believe I read on this list a few months back that 50 years ago people were using things like lead and arsenic on orchard trees, so that's part of why I'm being extra cautious and a bit gun shy about starting up. I'm sure I'll find the land I'm meant to be on, when I can afford to be on it! Pam ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Feb 1 14:46:56 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12465 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:46:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01806; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:38:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01456 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:35:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([210.55.161.75]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000201194949.XHYH6460852.mta1-rme@oemcomputer> for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:49:49 +1300 Message-ID: <3897376B.2785@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 08:43:39 +1300 From: Glen Atkinson Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Garuda Biodynamics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-XTRA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BDNOW Subject: Garuda BD discussion begins Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3407 A discussion specifically upon what arises out of the Garuda BD impulse will begin from this coming Sunday the 6th of February, at the Garudabd site with egroups.com. All members of this list are invited and welcome to join the discussion group. This can be done by subscribing using the following commamds Subscribe garudabd-subscribe@eGroups.com Unsubscribe garudabd-unsubscribe@eGroups.com Post Message garudabd@eGroups.com cheers Glen A. From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Feb 1 16:53:53 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15795 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:53:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA21149; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:44:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from kootenay.com (web1.vphos.net [207.102.129.200]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20910 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:43:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from woodyw.netacc.net ([206.108.203.93]) by web1.vphos.net ; Tue, 01 Feb 2000 11:49:26 -0800 Message-ID: <006501bf6ced$7648e180$59cb6cce@netacc.net> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Woody Wodraska" To: Subject: Aurora Farm in ACRES USA Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 12:48:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3408 Listfolk: The February issue of ACRES USA carries an article--I confess, I wrote it--on Enough is Enough: Right Livelihood at Aurora Farm, pointing up the economies of scale we practice at our place and in our seed business. For us, economy of scale means something quite opposite the prevailing "bigger is better" mentality-- we embrace smallness and quality. Needless to say, to operate on such a small, mostly hand-powered, scale requires a great deal of value added to the farm produce: something the seed business has built right in. Seeds are going out the door here as gardeners bestir themselves around the first of February [Groudhog Day?] to plan their gardens and buy in their seeds. As we've mentioned here before, Aurora Biodynamic Farm is relocating and redefining itself after the coming season. You may want to purchase two years' supply of seed, because we may not be selling seeds in 2001. Bioydnmically grown produce, we know, has good keeping qualities...this goes for seed as well. We routinely plant out biodynamically grown seed, ours and others', that has gone well past its viability according to the garden books. What's that redefinition of Aurora Farm all about? Perhaps we'll be spending more time in the future teaching people to grow their own seeds than we have been. Seed distribution and growing needs to become more and more decentralized...the way it was. With 18" of poor man's fertilizer on the ground and more coming... Woody From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Feb 1 17:07:45 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16074 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:07:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22437; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:54:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from fepa.mail.ozemail.net (fepa.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22275 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:53:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (slmlb5p41.ozemail.com.au [210.84.130.41]) by fepa.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA24263 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:59:10 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <005e01bf6d63$a9988c40$298254d2@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: References: <002401bf6bfd$86a7b920$989dafc7@333> Subject: New name for Monsanto Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:55:35 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3409 Dear Bdnow friends As reported in the Melbourne 'Age' last Saturday. The Monsanto company name, which has become synonymous with the genetically modified food business, is to be dropped. The American biotech company is merging with US-Swiss drugs group Pharmacia & Upjohn and the $A76 billion company will be known as Pharmacia. "We have chosen a name with power and global elegance" said Mr Robert Shapiro, chairman of Monsanto who will lead the new company. Warm regards Gwenda PS I wonder if they know that saying 'if it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck ....' From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Feb 1 17:27:18 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16364 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:27:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA24963; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:13:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from fepa.mail.ozemail.net (fepa.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24881 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:13:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (slmlb5p41.ozemail.com.au [210.84.130.41]) by fepa.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA11344 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:19:12 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <006601bf6d66$7547e140$298254d2@default> Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: "Gwenda Robb" To: References: <002401bf6bfd$86a7b920$989dafc7@333> <005e01bf6d63$a9988c40$298254d2@default> Subject: Re: New name for Monsanto Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 21:15:39 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3410 ..it is a duck! From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Feb 1 17:45:32 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16678 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:45:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA27955; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:37:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27382 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:33:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.163.136] (pm3mbr2-166-75.intrepid.net [209.190.166.75]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02526 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:39:36 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <006501bf6ced$7648e180$59cb6cce@netacc.net> References: <006501bf6ced$7648e180$59cb6cce@netacc.net> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:36:01 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Aurora Farm in ACRES USA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3411 Woody - You guys are real trend setters. I see that DEMETER is going to rename their ORGANIC CERTIFICATION "AURORA." Congratulations!!! :-) -Allan -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Feb 1 18:04:51 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16985 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:04:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00161; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:57:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA00031 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:55:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.190.166.75] (pm3mbr2-166-75.intrepid.net [209.190.166.75]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA08441 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:01:55 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: igg@intrepid.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:01:02 -0400 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: This past quarter with Amazon Books Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3412 Total shipped to customer this quarter: $480.18 Referral fee this quarter: $26.96 Credit referral fee previous quarter: $19.29 Total Referral fee: $46.25 >From October 1st, 1999 to December 31st, 1999 Individually Linked Books that, on the date of order, are listed in our catalog at 10% to 30% off the publisher's list price and that are added to the customer's shopping basket directly from the page that results from following the hypertext link to the Individually Linked Book ASIN Title Amount ---- ----- -------- 0962464864 Chicken Tractor : The Permaculture 15.96 0908228082 Introduction to Permaculture 13.56 -------------------------------------------------------------- Total shipped: $29.52 Referral fee (at 15%): $4.43 >From October 1st, 1999 to December 31st, 1999 Other qualifying book, music, and video items ASIN Title Amount ---- ----- -------- 0609801821 A Natural History of Parenting : A 11.05 0965611833 All Slots Made Easier (Winning Stra 10.00 0452280729 Angel Animals : Exploring Our Spiri 10.36 0553375083 Bringing a Garden to Life 11.01 0195095758 Catching the Light : The Entwined H 13.56 0913990957 Cooking With Gluten and Seitan 7.95 1566397057 Deep Vegetarianism (America in Tran 15.96 0674356608 Good Natured : The Origins of Right 21.21 0439064864 Harry Potter and the Chamber of Sec 17.96 0689822847 Hitty : Her First Hundred Years 3.99 0934380201 How to Trade in Stocks : The Liverm 15.96 0521577799 In the Company of Animals : A Study 11.96 B0000062TT Mummer's Dance [CD-SINGLE] 3.32 0679433740 Paradise 5.99 157324094X Peaceful Kingdom : Random Acts of K 9.56 0380975750 Rebecca's Garden : Four Seasons to 19.25 091057510X Robbing the One-Armed Bandits : Fin 11.96 0691043477 Scientific Studies (Goethe's Collec 23.96 0674258622 The Environmental Imagination : Tho 17.50 0904693910 The Heart of the Matter : Discoveri 14.95 0395892732 Tree Houses : You Can Actually Buil 14.40 0895948338 Truffles, Candies, & Confections : 11.96 B000000OSE Use Your Illusion I 13.99 1856230082 How to Make a Forest Garden 24.95 -------------------------------------------------------------- Total shipped: $322.76 Referral fee (at 5%): $16.14 >From October 1st, 1999 to December 31st, 1999 Other qualifying products (those not affected by a price cap) ASIN Title Amount ---- ----- -------- B00000ISN0 Doubles Wild 19.95 B00001OHDJ Dragonball Z 2" Figures: Series 4 6.99 B00000J05F Hand-Held Ultimate Bass Fishin' Gam 22.99 B0000224UD Leatherman 67010103 The Wave 59.99 B00000ISUV Pet Lovin' Barbie 9.99 B00000DMFS Slamwich Card Game 7.99 -------------------------------------------------------------- Total shipped: $127.90 Referral fee (at 5%): $6.40 >From October 1st, 1999 to December 31st, 1999 Qualifying products that earned the maximum referral fee of $10 per item ASIN Title Sales Earnings ---- ----- -------- -------- -------------------------------------------------------------- Total shipped: $0.00 Referral fee (at $10.00/item): $0.00 Thanks again for participating in the Amazon.com Associates Program, and have a great next quarter! -- From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Feb 1 19:17:04 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18426 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:17:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08117; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:09:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07994 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:08:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (sdn-ar-006azphoeP315.dialsprint.net [158.252.129.93]) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15465 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:14:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3897794B.703A8111@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 17:24:43 -0700 From: Jim and Jenni Muir X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {TLC;RETAIL} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Developing the abilities of the mind's eye References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3413 Dear Hugh and list, Thank you for responding to my query on using biofeedback to develop the mind's eye. Yes, there are many approaches to developing the abilities of the mind's eye. My husband and I both are dowsers, and we were fortunate to meet Joey Korn at an Acres conference. Isn't he wonderful? We are familiar with many other dowsers in our area, including a good friend who teaches dowsing at several universities. We use muscle testing and kinesiology as well, and I am a Silva Graduate. I began to realize that any of these techniques that quieten the mind, lead to an expanded awareness. Any additional light you could shed on your personal biofeedback techniques or training, that perhaps led to your deepened awareness, would be appreciated. You have developed a keen sense of being able to sense the forces and energies in Nature, and your insight is always helpful. Blessings, Jenni Muir From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Tue Feb 1 20:39:03 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA19628 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:39:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA17931; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:30:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA17474 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:26:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from LightExpression.com (ha07s079.d.shentel.net [204.111.54.79]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA25425 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:36:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <389788E5.1EDA1293@LightExpression.com> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 20:31:17 -0500 From: Wayne and Sharon McEachern Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Organization: Light Expression Essences X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bio-Dynamic List Subject: Re: BD and Nature.... More References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3414 Please read on...... Andreas wrote: > Many thanks Sharon > Then are over lighting devas the same as the anthroposophical term "group > soul" of the animal or the spiritual architype of the plant? and the > overlighting deva of a forest, stream or field is also from the rank of > Angel? I'm a little unclear still. I thought that nature beings are > elemental ie beings without spirit yet you term them nature spirits? > > I have tried dowsing with both a pendulum and rods. I have no problem with > the fact that it works but never seem to have the right touch. I am otherwise > quite sensitive, a musician.. I will take a look at the suggested web page > Sharon here..... Sorry to not explain the answer to you question clearly. It's usually just that we're not using the same language (terminology) -- There is an Overlighting Deva (Angel) for everything -- this Deva (for turquoise, for blackeyed susan, for Granny Smith apple tree, etc.) holds the architectural blueprint for the entire species, and the elemental (also called Nature Spirit) holds for the species (individual and collective). The energy pattern is form -- Group Soul probably also = Deva, although most of us who work with Nature usually use the term Deva or Angel. Nothing, as far as I know -- is without Spirit. "Spirit" is the energy pattern from the Source of All -- Creator -- God -- Divinity, etc. Everything has a life force -- and energy pattern, and it contains Spirit. When I communicate with an aspect of Nature (rock, plant, etc.) I am always aware that I am in touch with a being which has consciousness, a purpose, and a tangible link to "All that Is". Dowsing, like all techniques, is subject to moving through the layers of our own personal filters (i.e. misunderstandings, baggage, "stuff"). This is why it is so important to clear out our personal baggage -- for one thing, it's heavy to tote around, but it also clouds the information which we wish to receive from Spirit. Receiving information from Nature will come to you through your own vocabulary which is why there are different names for the same beings. Nature is basically very flexible and is always there to serve and assist us. In light, Sharon *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com Essences@LightExpression.com "A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation" *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Feb 2 00:20:42 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA23492 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 00:20:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15521; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 00:11:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15123 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 00:07:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [166.102.66.132] (r-66.177.alltel.net [166.102.66.177]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id XAA13827; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:13:48 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3897794B.703A8111@earthlink.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 00:23:16 -0500 To: bdnow@envirolink.org From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: Developing the abilities of the mind's eye Cc: dowser@mindspring.com Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3415 >Dear Hugh and list, >Thank you for responding to my query on using biofeedback to develop the >mind's >eye. Yes, there are many approaches to developing the abilities of the mind's >eye. My husband and I both are dowsers, and we were fortunate to meet >Joey Korn >at an Acres conference. Isn't he wonderful? We are familiar with many other >dowsers in our area, including a good friend who teaches dowsing at several >universities. We use muscle testing and kinesiology as well, and I am a Silva >Graduate. I began to realize that any of these techniques that quieten >the mind, >lead to an expanded awareness. > >Any additional light you could shed on your personal biofeedback techniques or >training, that perhaps led to your deepened awareness, would be >appreciated. You >have developed a keen sense of being able to sense the forces and energies in >Nature, and your insight is always helpful. > >Blessings, >Jenni Muir Dear Jenni, I don't know how to describe the techniques I studied. They might seem very simple and matter-of-fact/ordinary. >From the practitioner's end? A GSR meter and tons of training. Pretty simple and very hard to describe. No hypnosis or other such. Just establish the rudiments of a clear session and go right to directing the client's thought where you want him to go. This is done with direct questions. With the GSR meter you can see where the charged areas are and when the charges clear up. And you know all the "hot" spots to put the client inlike the back of your hand. You go for the "easy" things first to build up a rhythm of working with the client, build up their level of confront, give them a flush of easy wins and get them ready for bigger stuff--which in the beginning they would be spooked by. Then you go for some really key, basic, ball-ups, like problems and help, that are sure to limit case gain until they are dealt with. Break these wide open and release the charge on problems and help and you're off and running. And you don't let up until you have peeled away the favorite strategy and favorite personality, and other such automatic patterns of behavior. Then at last you get to something besides the identity mirror (a Steiner term). Then at last you rehabilitiate the will, recapture thought and integrate the ego. In my first experience with this form of biofeedback as a client we were doing a word clearing procedure and before I knew it I was reliving a past death many thousands of years ago as an Egyptian priest. Whew! That's how powerful it can get when your thought is directed right to where the charge shows on the GSR meter. The guy who handled me was a Frenchman by the name of Pierre, and I'll never foreget him. He stayed with me in the grips of my vivid flashback just as stoically as ever through all my slow approach. He certainly cleared up a few detested words in my lexicon! Talk about word clearing! There were no words to describe this. Needless to say what I'm talking about is a very powerful, very specific way of looking into the psyche. You can find out almost anything you want. You can go back and learn the origins of the universe, though if you study the Upanishads and Vedas you'll find that's all been done thousands of years and more before. And written down. Any (of your) past lives? They are all more or less open books. The Budha is said to have stated that there are 17 trillion thought events per second. That sounds about right based on my experience. Thought is extremely subtle and fine. There's a lot of it in any given second. But you can tune in on any given thread if you know how. You just go right to it, because in the final analysis you KNOW and all you have to do is make it conscious. Removing obstacles is the biggest thing I guess. You don't have me with my GSR meter and $100 an hour do you? So you probably need self-help methods. You can chant a mantra for removing obstacles, you know. It goes like this: OM, GUM, Ganapathi, YAY, Nama HA. (repeat, repeat, repeat.) The idea in chanting a mantra is that these sanskrit formulas have specific energy effects on the human organism. This one removes obstacles of all kinds. I know it may sound stupid to some readers, but I chant twice a day when I milk the cow. It is my morning and evening meditation and I believe it is rather soothing for the cow. Anyway, she hasn't complained. Mantras are manifold. It's wonderful and therapeutic. Chant the mantra a minimum of 108 times morning and evening for 40 days. Profound changes will occur. You might want to go on to the next mantra after that. And keep practicing what Joey Korn taught you. Work with dowsing. Play with it. There's nothing like cleaving to truth in every aspect of life to open up your mind's eye. Good luck, Hugh Lovel From owner-bdnow@envirolink.org Wed Feb 2 12:17:34 2000 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02582 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:17:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10886; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:09:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.alphalink.com.au (mail.alphalink.com.au [203.24.205.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10720 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:07:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from alphalink.com.au (d13-as0-ros.alphalink.com.au [202.161.118.13]) by mail.alphalink.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA17010 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 04:14:09 +1100 Message-ID: <3898658E.AFC421B0@alphalink.com.au> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 04:12:46 +1100 From: OX X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bdnow@envirolink.org Subject: TILLER?? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: bdnow@envirolink.org Sender: owner-bdnow@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3416 Hi,,, Can anyone recomend a good small tiller to work a small plot? Thanks Stephen